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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
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CCP Logibro
C C P C C P Alliance
1235
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Posted - 2015.10.15 14:49:18 -
[1] - Quote
The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside.
CCP Logibro // EVE Universe Community Team // Distributor of Nanites // Patron Saint of Logistics
@CCP_Logibro
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Wribbley
Molotov Holdings Limited Molotov Coalition
1
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:18:15 -
[2] - Quote
For the love of God, no plz..
Edit: Hell I'd do it, I'd buy 50 or so 5 mil SP chars for the bonus sp. But still I beg of you don't do it, because of that reason. Yes theres is diminishing returns.for higher sp chars. I'd just suck it up and buy more. |
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
481
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:21:32 -
[3] - Quote
Is this the beginning of the end? |
Arec Bardwin
1877
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:23:16 -
[4] - Quote
And thus it begins. My initial reaction was 'hmm.. really?' |
Phoenus
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
138
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:24:28 -
[5] - Quote
Every few years, CCP has an 'oops' moment. It happened with monoclegate, it happened with the proposed carrier changes many years ago, and it just happened right now.
Welp. |
Ripard Teg
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
1083
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:25:38 -
[6] - Quote
Guys, your players quite literally make fun of people who think this is a good idea. I had to check twice to make sure it is not April Fool's Day.
And now you're actually going to do it? Effectively sell Skill Points for Aurum? Effectively allow character respecs as long as people give you money? Are your company finances that bad?
Please do not do this.
aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
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Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
28
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:28:08 -
[7] - Quote
Its not April right ?
This basically introduces the ability to buy any skill with real life cash.
Also the potential for abuse is staggering.
Its not April, RIGHT?
Jita Riots 2.0 incoming ... if enough people decide to care anymore.
To be honest personally I am disgusted. Should I decide to win EvE, I am going to donate all my assets to Code. I am pretty certain they would make good use of them to provide limitless content via this feature :D |
Magnifikus Erzverwirrer
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
22
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:28:19 -
[8] - Quote
So you allow people now to convert SP to FREE SP for cash, what a cashcow dudes, brilliant!
useful ideas, like put lost SP from T3 losses into the wreck are far away |
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
1051
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:28:31 -
[9] - Quote
Can't say I like it. Ive been against it since it was presented.
This is supposed to be a predecision discussion as I have understood it. Please make your opinions known.
Member of CSMX - CSMX Weekly Updates
Member of CSM9
Low Sec Lifestyle - An Eve Blog
@Sugar_Kyle
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Sort Dragon
Resilience. DARKNESS.
144
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:28:58 -
[10] - Quote
I am just going to come out and say I do not support this. I have been against this internally and at the summit.
Maybe you as the community will say different but this isn't for me. |
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1986
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:30:50 -
[11] - Quote
Very interesting.
A question: do we get to choose which skills are converted into skill packets? (contrived example: I am deeply ashamed that I trained Gallente Cruiser; can I apply skill extractors to myself to expunge the gallente curse from my name?)
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Doomchinchilla
Collapsed Out Pandemic Legion
73
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:30:57 -
[12] - Quote
ISK for SP, this is what happens when we let people that haven't played EVE for greater than 2 years onto the CSM. How can this even be remotely considered a good idea?
Not once have vets every seriously thought this was a good idea. This is just bad. Just 100% bad. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1866
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:31:18 -
[13] - Quote
Great change. Best in years. However, could we get some more sample numbers like the possible Aurum costs?
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.
Creator of Burn Jita
Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
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Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Northern Coalition.
1828
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:33:15 -
[14] - Quote
unallocated skill points is a terrible idea
we can talk about taking entire skills though. i would gladly sell my mining skills as a package. |
Kasli Catal
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
10
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:33:28 -
[15] - Quote
0 to 50m SP REAL QUICK aka instant and perfect cap alts, super pilots, etc etc. |
Ransu Asanari
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
390
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:34:58 -
[16] - Quote
I think it's funny that the Devblog talks about the real difficulties of using a purchased character that has an infamous history, or a stupid name. We've been asking for years for a way to pay to rename characters, or respec the way they look (change appearance, gender). So to go from that acknowledgement, EVEN in the Devblog, and then right to this idea of stripping skillpoints to sell, seems completely missing the mark.
I understand the Character Bazaar lets a player pay ISK to "pay to win", but they get the whole package in terms of skills, and it takes up an extra character slot. We've come to accept the constantly reinforced philosophy that skillpoints are never really wasted, because the meta changes, and things become more and less useful as that happens. For example, think those mining skills are a waste? Flying a Bait Procurer can let you make use of them. The other side of this is there is a value to creating focused characters, or starter characters on the Bazaar. This new feature would lessen the value of this, and it's quite a large investment to be messed with.
So this, I am TOTALLY against. For a long time we've accepted AUR and some some of the cosmetic features in NEX Store like SKINS, because they have no real impact in game. This completely breaks that paradigm, since it will be very easy and much more accessible to "pay to win", despite the promise of diminishing returns.
This isn't something new players need. This isn't something veterans want.
Go back and read your own devblog - give us ways to rename our characters and reskin them, and we will pay you to let us do it. But keep away from things that affect gameplay, because we remember, and Greed is Not Good. |
Sparta93xb
Repercussus Goonswarm Federation
13
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:35:04 -
[17] - Quote
This is awful |
cpu939
Eternal Darkness. Blades of Grass
92
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:35:26 -
[18] - Quote
I'm with the CSM guys on this that have posted so far, i'll say if you take 500k sp you give 500k sp no matter the skill points a player has.
over all i say scrap this and rethink if you want to change it |
Langbaobao
Tr0pa de elite. Pandemic Legion
67
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:35:44 -
[19] - Quote
This is a really bad idea. I can think of a couple ways to abuse this right off the top of my head. I urge you to reconsider, 'cause this will be a disaster if it hits the live game.
On a side note, is CCP really so strapped for cash that it needs a new cash cow? |
Peter Powers
Terrorists of Dimensions Free 2 Play
251
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:36:29 -
[20] - Quote
Quote: 0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added
really? old players have to pay 10 times the price new players do for skillpoints? as if it wasn't enought that most new content introduced is focused on new players, no now vets are actively being punished for sticking with the game?
3rdPartyEve.net - your catalogue for 3rd party applications
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Admiral Akbar it'satrap
Licence To Kill Mercenary Coalition
2
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:37:32 -
[21] - Quote
This seems like something blizzard would scheme up.
count me a -1 for this idea. |
Leto Aramaus
Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop
295
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:37:46 -
[22] - Quote
Not a fan.
EVE slowly becoming Free2Play and Pay2win?
I'd prefer removing character buying/selling altogether.
The UI update we deserve
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Luna Deos
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:37:53 -
[23] - Quote
This feels a lot like the golden ammo we were promised wasn't going to happen when the AUR store was released. |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1141
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:38:08 -
[24] - Quote
i look forward to buying the characters of our enemies and turning them into skillgoop |
Bam Stroker
Van Diemen's Demise Pandemic Legion
468
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:38:22 -
[25] - Quote
Death to the sacred cows imo. As a high SP character (with a few high SP alts) I'm ok with this. Newbies who didn't know what they were doing get a chance to respec before they're too old and old timers like me who want to min/max will get a chance to do so but will get a bad ROI for the privilege.
I would love to see how someone can apply Malcanis' law to this? (Not saying that can't; just that I'd be interested).
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xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
684
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:38:43 -
[26] - Quote
Point of note that some posting here seem to have missed:
You're not buying skills for real money. Someone has to extract those skillpoints from another character first, then the fee allows the transfer. Kinda like we currently do to transfer whole characters already.
Langbaobao wrote:This is a really bad idea. I can think of a couple ways to abuse this right off the top of my head. I urge you to reconsider, 'cause this will be a disaster if it hits the live game.
On a side note, is CCP really so strapped for cash that it needs a new cash cow?
Absolutely yes |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1989
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:38:50 -
[27] - Quote
Peter Powers wrote:Quote: 0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added
really? old players have to pay 10 times the price new players do for skillpoints? as if it wasn't enought that most new content introduced is focused on new players, no now vets are actively being punished for sticking with the game? They are pretty much forced to do this, honestly.
Otherwise, everyone in eve would generate bastard farms whose only purpose is funneling SP to their main character.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Thalo Wolfkind
New Jovian Exploration Department A Band Apart.
0
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:40:30 -
[28] - Quote
Downside: It ruins the ability to look at a character's corp history/created date and get a sense of their skillpoints.
Personally I'd rather see the improved character bazaar. |
Wribbley
Molotov Holdings Limited Molotov Coalition
1
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:40:46 -
[29] - Quote
Old players are invariably super rich with nothing much to spend isk on. I doubt any would care about the minimal return on investment. It's still a terribad idea though. |
Speedy Conzollis
Only Fools and Horses
22
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:40:48 -
[30] - Quote
Stunned. Just no, please no. |
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Sanders Schmittlaub
New Jovian Exploration Department A Band Apart.
9
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:41:49 -
[31] - Quote
I am torn on this.
On the one hand, I would love to be able to reallocate skillpoints that I have 'wasted' but at the same time, I feel that the decisions that players make should be something we have to live with. Being able to pay to fix the issues seems like an easy out.
The other issue I have is that the scaling of effectiveness will seriously unbalance the market with these items. The people who can afford to buy large numbers of skill packets (80+m SP) get the least out of them, but they can afford to buy them ten at a time to get the same effectiveness as a new player, which will in turn make it essentially impossible for new players (who will get the most out of them) to ever afford one.
With these being an AURUM item, the cost to buy one will need to be balanced with the profits that can be made off of them. PLEX is already absurdly expensive, so placing an item with good profits will only further make PLEX an unaffordable item. This would therefore force the costs of every other AURUM item up, and (while I don't use them) I know a lot of people are madly in love with ship SKINS. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Northern Coalition.
1828
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:42:20 -
[32] - Quote
xttz wrote:Point of note that some posting here seem to have missed:
You're not buying skills for real money. Someone has to extract those skillpoints from another character first, then the fee allows the transfer. Kinda like we currently do to transfer whole characters already.
to be honest, that's exactly what it is.
i have an account that only holds characters that require no further skilling for their purpose. i would start selling every single SP trained on this account on the day this goes live. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1989
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:42:33 -
[33] - Quote
Honestly, I'm pretty surprised to the negative reaction here.
People posting about this (both here and from without) are quick to call this "ISK for SP;" did you all deliberately ignore the part where you have to liquidate an existing pilot's skill points to fuel the skill packets?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Niraia
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
346
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:42:47 -
[34] - Quote
WTF are you doing to your game?
Niraia
EVE Online Hold'Em
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Laufey Sif Tetseldottir
Blue Lagoon Appreciation Society
19
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:42:48 -
[35] - Quote
-NO- |
big miker
Rifterlings Zero.Four Ops
351
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:43:00 -
[36] - Quote
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
No
Latest video: Ferocious 6.0 Nano battleships / maruaders
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Paka-Tegat Birshiri
Paragon Material Extraction and Processing
5
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:44:00 -
[37] - Quote
Wow. I guess this is the end, CCP. So long and thanks for all the fish, but even the thought of "floating this idea for comment" makes me no longer want to support your game.
This is, literally, Pay2Win.
Sure someone has to train those skillpoints and extract them. But that doesn't change the fact that any player, any character, can now spend real life money for skillpoints, the one bastion of sanity remaining. In a world where you could already amass ISK easier by RMTing it... oops, sorry, buying PLEX and then selling those PLEX for ISK, totally not RMT... skill points remained one of the defining factors. You can fund as many expensive ships as you wanted, but you still had to put in the time and planning to be good at it, both in terms of character skills and player skill.
Thanks for all the memories, EVE. 4 accounts spanning almost 10 years will be hard to let go of, but it's time.
No, you can't have my stuff. |
h4kun4
Heeresversuchsanstalt The Bastion
34
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:45:13 -
[38] - Quote
im sorry, but i think this is the most terrible idea ive read since fozziesov |
BlitZ Kotare
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
135
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:45:51 -
[39] - Quote
My gut reaction to this is that it's a bad idea.
If you want to discuss pulling out complete skills for sale that would be more reasonable.
Example: when I was a newbie I trained Mining V and I don't want it anymore. Instead of removing SP that is injected as unallocated I instead consume some item and can pull out (and then sell on the market) the skillbook+sp for Mining V as a complete item. Any other player that doesn't have Mining V trained can then consume that item after buying it from me and enjoy their new mining skill. |
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3058
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:45:57 -
[40] - Quote
I am also against this. I could go into details but . . . this feels wrong to me. Against what I thought the game to be.
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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Scott Ormands
The Desolate Order Brave Collective
56
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:46:07 -
[41] - Quote
On one hand im excited to get back the 3m sp wasted in mining on a carrier toon, on the other what is to stop me from trainging a command ship and then extracting all the boosting skills, so to speak. in that way i could still fly the command ship but would have gotten my boosting skills transfered into some other skill or sold for isk. its a way to beat the prereq system for almost anything. |
Tyrrax Thorrk
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
398
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:46:36 -
[42] - Quote
No, CCP just no.
:facepalm: |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Northern Coalition.
1829
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:46:47 -
[43] - Quote
Quote:0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added
i have a feeling that this is waaaay overpowered in the 5-50m sp range. without wasted skillpoints, you don't need more than that to pay for a pretty much perfect character for pretty much any purpose |
D'Kmal
Variables Unlimited Void..
10
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:46:47 -
[44] - Quote
What if removing skillpoints was only possible if it killed/biomassed the character they were taken from? That way you would still essentially be buying a character (i.e. taking all their SP), just now you could start a new character with the name and looks that you wanted, and apply the whole of the first character's SP to them.
I'm in two minds: on one hand, seems like a pretty useful idea.
On the other hand, destroys everything that was fantastic about EVE in living with the consequences of your actions - but I suppose that saying that "SP was the one resource that couldn't be bought" was stupid, as you could just buy a character.
I'm dubiously in support of this. |
The Slayer
Hole Violence Whole Squid
279
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:47:04 -
[45] - Quote
:tardiscloisterbell.mp3:
Its been a good ride gents. |
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere Coalition of the Unfortunate
1504
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:47:16 -
[46] - Quote
Dear god no... |
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2022
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:47:27 -
[47] - Quote
Querns wrote:They are pretty much forced to do this, honestly.
Otherwise, everyone in eve would generate bastard farms whose only purpose is funneling SP to their main character. They are not forced to to this. CCP instead should be coerced to develop proper, engaging and awesome game content that makes people want to stick around (see a couple of my suggestions for example *openly brags about it*). This is not that content, this is nothing but yet another money grab that requires no real effort or development cost from CCP to actually improve the game.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
712
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:47:30 -
[48] - Quote
Considering how cheap SP is on the Character Bazaar, do you feel that it's okay to charge so much for it through this system? Not that I like the system either.
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
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The Mittani
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8299
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:47:39 -
[49] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:i look forward to buying the characters of our enemies and turning them into skillgoop
salt the earth~
~hi~
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Obsidian Crowe
Repercussus Goonswarm Federation
12
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:48:20 -
[50] - Quote
Please god no. You will make EVE play to win There will be no time investment in the game. IT WILL BE THE END OF WORLDS |
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Izmaragd Dawnstar
EVE University Ivy League
4
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:49:10 -
[51] - Quote
By all that is holy, please don't do this.
I think you severely underestimate the min-maxing a lot of people will go through twelve hoops to purchase more and more SP. Yes, it may be terribly inefficient at high spellpower levels, but running 5 or 10 accounts to fuel one is not unheard of and a lot of people have mountains of isk on their hands.
If you want to deal with SP brickwalls and requirements, there are numerous other ways to do it. |
Lquid Drisseg
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
5
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:49:23 -
[52] - Quote
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1989
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:49:36 -
[53] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Querns wrote:They are pretty much forced to do this, honestly.
Otherwise, everyone in eve would generate bastard farms whose only purpose is funneling SP to their main character. They are not forced to to this. CCP instead should be coerced to develop proper, engaging and awesome game content that makes people want to stick around (see a couple of my suggestions for example *openly brags about it*). This is not that content, this is nothing but yet another money grab that requires no real effort or development cost from CCP to actually improve the game. Developer time is not fungible, and CCP is able to work on multiple things at once to no ill effect. This argument comes up time and time again any time something even remotely unpalatable arrives and I'm tired of hearing it.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Drakthon
3
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:49:40 -
[54] - Quote
It seems like a good plan on the surface, but underneath this is a bad idea.
Skill points are essential to what makes an Eve pilot an Eve pilot. Take that away or undermine it, and you undermine the game. I was open to at least exploring the idea until you mentioned selling these packets for Aurum. After that, the entire idea is awash in money making, and while I understand that corporations need to make money...this is too far.
Are you going to sell ships for Aurum, a la Star Citizen? Or equipment of any kind? Why are skill points, the most essential element in Eve and the thing that literally everything revolves around any different? Avoid this slippery slope, CCP. It's a bad road to go down. Let the character Bazaar change, improve and adapt for the current time. It is indeed a fantastic idea to avoid 3rd party transfers, PLEX is an excellent idea to avoid 3rd party money issues. But this? There's no 3rd party involved with skill points, and scamming on the Bazaar is against ToS (and easily caught, I would imagine). Selling skill points is not the way to go. The young pilots need to invest the same time that the rest of us have. It's the only reason we're still here, and arguably the only way they will stay. When I purchase anything in a game, if it gets me ahead...appreciation for the game depreciates exponentially. I haven't earned it, why would I care about it? You could draw the same conclusion about the Bazaar, but even that uses PLEX. Not Aurum.
Truly, I appreciate CCP coming to the player base first. Good show. Don't forget to listen, as well. |
Ripard Teg
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
1091
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Posted - 2015.10.15 15:50:00 -
[55] - Quote
OK, I've calmed down slightly. Let's give you guys some specific feedback so that you understand what a ******* terrible idea this is.
I have an alt I bought on the bazaar years ago. He has 82 million SP. Much of it is focused on mining and reprocessing, skills I haven't used in years. As long as I'm a whale...
Step 1: Pump a ton of Aurum into CCP to buy 84 Transneural Skill Extractors. Step 2: Use them to create 84 Transneural Skill Packets for a total of 42 million SP. Step 3: Consume 25 of them myself to bring myself to 50 million SP, dumping my useless SP and focusing this alt on incursion-running. Step 4: Sell 59 Transneural Skill Packets on the market, making it more or less unnecessary for me to actually run incursions for a while since 59 of these are going to be worth a ton of ISK.
And that doesn't even get into the matter of using those 84 Packets to more or less instantly jump a new character from 0 to 40 million SP. Character ages and birth dates will become completely meaningless.
Again, I can do these things as long as I'm a whale and pump a ton of money into CCP for the 84 Transneural Skill Extractors.
Am I missing anything here? Who in God's name thought this was a good idea? Can we sell them to Riot?
aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
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Anthar Thebess
1327
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:51:08 -
[56] - Quote
This is joke? Sorry but NO! BIG NO!
People already have a character bazar , and ONLY thing that is missing is ability to rename bought character.
again ............ N O!
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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virm pasuul
FRISKY BUSINESS. No Handlebars.
319
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:51:19 -
[57] - Quote
My gut reaction is negative, but in my attempt to express logical reasons I can only come up with two things I like about it:
1 It is an skill point sink, it will remove skill points from the game. The best conversion rate is 1:1 where no skill points are lost. In all other cases more skill points are consumed than released and so skill points are removed. I like the concept of this. As skill points are removed, the existing skill points will have slightly more value, in theory anyway.
2 It will make the construction of fresh spying alts easier, especially if there is no record of it's use in the API. I like the meta possibilities that may arise from it. For those paying attention it would be fairly easy to spot - skill points versus character age.
3 Encourages muppetry. This was going to be a negative until I realised, no wait that's a positive. If players can bling their characters for RL cash the way they bling their ships then that just means more clueless idiots flying around, who don't have the knowledge of how to play the game properly. I am all for this, more juicy targets for shiney loot and killmails.
against : It does tilt towards pay to win, but no more than already exists. What's the difference between what's proposed here and buying PLEX to turn into ISK to buy a character. It's just a different way to achieve the same ends. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1989
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:51:53 -
[58] - Quote
Izmaragd Dawnstar wrote:By all that is holy, please don't do this.
I think you severely underestimate the min-maxing a lot of people will go through twelve hoops to purchase more and more SP. Yes, it may be terribly inefficient at high spellpower levels, but running 5 or 10 accounts to fuel one is not unheard of and a lot of people have mountains of isk on their hands.
If you want to deal with SP brickwalls and requirements, there are numerous other ways to do it. This is highly inefficient compared to simply buying skill packets from the open market. The diminishing returns on skill packets obviates the need to run a personal bastard farm for one character.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Myynti Mies
Solice Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:52:10 -
[59] - Quote
Please do not do this.
The ability to buy skillpoints is a terrible idea. We know it's a terrible idea and we know you know it's a terrible idea.
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Cynthia Aishai
Perkone Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:52:41 -
[60] - Quote
worst idea ever
even worse than jump fatigue and the fleet warp change |
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rofflesausage
State War Academy Caldari State
213
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:52:57 -
[61] - Quote
Overly complex for what should actually be possible:
- Name changes - the 'reputation' reason is total nonsense, given you can simply buy / sell a character anyway. Simply have a 'previously known as' tab in the show info for that character.
- Character SP reallocation - Made a mistake? Want a new direction? Pay to do so. Same SP amount. Limited on the number of times per year.
Trading SP across characters I'm not a fan of, certainly not with the diminishing returns aspect. I'd much rather the focus be on letting new players gain / start with more SP.
As for the actual character trading - give people the ability to turn a character into an in game item. It should be tradable, be subject to the normal scam rules, and destroyable like any item in the game.
Are these 'Transneural Skill Packets' normal items that can be destroyed in game? Like PLEX? |
Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate Spaceship Bebop
428
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:53:00 -
[62] - Quote
It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how much it will be used. The diminishing returns are required to prevent abuse, but that really only makes the service viable for very low SP characters. Any idea on the AUR cost of the neutral abstraction thing? That will really drive their use or non-use.
Also, any plans to move the character bazaar itself into the client?
.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1989
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:53:23 -
[63] - Quote
Cynthia Aishai wrote:worst idea ever
even worse than jump fatigue and the fleet warp change You're like a critical mass of uninformed opinions, aren't you?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Hendrink Collie
Blood Oath Foundation Adaptation.
71
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:55:23 -
[64] - Quote
This looks like a dead on arrival idea.
The melting of characters for skill points that can be sold seems like a fairly interesting idea, but the pay to win implications of it are horrible and should die in a fire. Also, opens up a variety of tree poisoning gameplay, and we have that enough already. |
Aiwha
Infinite Point DARKNESS.
869
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:55:29 -
[65] - Quote
Do not do this.
I'm not normally doom and gloom, but this is how you kill your game.
Sanity is fun leaving the body.
|
Tibo Paralian
Dirt 'n' Glitter Local Is Primary
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:55:33 -
[66] - Quote
I approve. |
Esnaelc Sin'led
AdAstra. Beach Club
29
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:55:43 -
[67] - Quote
I think that's a really great idea.
Not only it deal the issue about really young player that wants to make something effective in the game, not necesserally by flying Mauluses or Curcifers among 50 other clones, but you can also trade SP, respec, and make SP presents to your friends.
I think that's an awsome idea, that needs to be deeperly thought. |
Ed Bever
Evolution Northern Coalition.
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:55:54 -
[68] - Quote
Don't go down this route, please, it makes it look as if you are trying to squeeze the last bit of money out of a dying concept. I would MUCH prefer it if you, instead, tried to improve on the concept of the game. |
grevicious
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:56:29 -
[69] - Quote
is this the same way WoW went PAY TO WIN. game dead |
Daria3war
Sumbandila
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:57:05 -
[70] - Quote
Love this idea . CCP thinking about the future of the game. L33T bitter vet get rekt. We need fresh players and new ideas. The old way of doing things is killing the game. +1 Let the tears flow |
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Langbaobao
Tr0pa de elite. Pandemic Legion
67
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:57:07 -
[71] - Quote
To explain in more detail the reasons why this is a bad idea, here's a few of the ways you can abuse this:
- If you've got enough isk/aurum (which you can buy for real money or just have a crapload of from before) you don't really care about diminishing returns, you can just throw isk at the problem and it will go away. It essentially makes the game P2W.
- Today if you had your account hacked you will probably have all your stuff and isk sold off but at least you can get your char back after the hack is discovered. Isk and stuff can be regrinded. Now the first thing that's gonna happen is that whoever hacks your account will go straight to drain your char of SPs and sell that as well. Once the whole anti hack routine is done you'll get your char back in tatters. CCP might be able to restore it to the previous state from a backup or something but somehow I have the feeling that it will require someone in CCP customer care fidling manually with it, increasing the workload and overhead on GMs.
- Essentially up until 50 mil SP the diminishing returns are minimal, which means that with enough money or isk you can just train perfect narrow focused chars extremely easy and quickly. You just need a few 'harvest' chars, you drain them every now and then and inject everything in the char that you want to skill up. |
Moraguth
Ranger Corp Vae. Victis.
135
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:57:16 -
[72] - Quote
Bitter vet reporting in.
TL;DR: I'm not quitting and you can't have my stuff, but you're taking more and more uniqueness away from the game that I've loved since the very first trailer showing actual game footage that got me to apply for the beta and get in.
The whine fest:
Right now I have just shy of 229M SP. That is a simple number that says quite a few things. Assuming I've had this character the whole time (and I have), you know roughly how long I've played the game, what I've seen, what I've been through, etc. This can be verified with the API. I earned every single one of those SP. I'm also proud to say I've missed out on less than 48 hours of training my entire time playing the game.
That simple barometer will be useless now. I've met people in game who have trillions of isk. Literal trillions. And these people are relatively young by comparison. They've played the market beautifully, or are slaves to incursions 23/7. Either way, they spend more money in a month on toys than I'll ever make in my entire eve career, but I've got those SP. That is significant.
All of the above sounds like (because it is) whining. I get that. Here's another point of view:
I've told people that eve is about choices, community, and consequences. The game is so realistic because the only thing you can't buy or build in the game is time. Now that is about to change. Time in game will have no meaning. The consequences for flying (and losing) T3 cruisers will only hit your wallet. Time and SP are so interconnected right now, but they won't be anymore.
I won't go so far as to say that this will make EVE into a pay to win game, but I gotta tell ya CCP, you keep making more and more tiny steps in that direction, and I do not approve.
I don't complain about people paying money for PLEX and then having tons of money in game because of two things: 1) a fool and his money are soon parted; and 2) buy all the blingy stuff you want, if you don't know how to fly it, you're gonna lose it.
That second point is going to get more and more blurry by allowing SP for isk.
I got a Feature Added!
Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn". It is "uh-bad-in"
dictionary.com/abaddon
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1990
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:57:33 -
[73] - Quote
grevicious wrote:is this the same way WoW went PAY TO WIN. game dead I'd choose a different example if I were you. WoW is certainly less trafficked than it was in its heyday, but it is FAR from dead.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
5632
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:57:35 -
[74] - Quote
I don't like this. Could be worse, but I don't like it.
A lowish hard cap would make it not as bad. But it still leads to "I just subscribed, but unless I spend more real money, I'll always be behind"
Woo! CSM X!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
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Izmaragd Dawnstar
EVE University Ivy League
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:57:36 -
[75] - Quote
Querns wrote: They are pretty much forced to do this, honestly.
Otherwise, everyone in eve would generate bastard farms whose only purpose is funneling SP to their main character.
Oh, but people will do that. If your character has less than 80M skill points, 5:2 SP ratio nothing to sneeze at. Assuming you get an account running +4s on an ideal remap, it takes just under 8 days to generate the required 500000 SP. If you have 8 accounts running, your character essentially can get 200000 more SP every day, compared to only 62640 your get with +4s and an ideal remap. More than 3 times the amount.
If this is not pay-to-win, I don't know what is. |
Ripard Teg
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
1094
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:57:42 -
[76] - Quote
More feedback: corp thief character with a bad reputation? No problem!
Just extract all of his SP, immediately feed all of his SP right back into an all new corp thief character specced perfectly to a new target corp's doctrines, profit!
As soon as is practicable, conduct your theft, use that corp's ISK to buy a bunch of extractors, suck out the new character's SP, create a new corp thief character, repeat until you're bored stealing from every corp in EVE.
You can't even trust the "Well, we just won't recruit people who have 40 million SP on day one" idea because the character bazaar will become full of "Here, buy my eight-year-old 500k SP alt and use it for corp thievery!" characters.
Net result: the level of trust that corps are going to have in new recruits is actually going to go down, if you can believe that. Consequences? What are those?
This is a horrible idea. Please do not do this.
aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
|
Lauren Istlare
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:57:47 -
[77] - Quote
I don't think the idea is bad. Nearly everyone has skills they wish they could untrain, and many would pay a couple of plex to get those SP back.
The bad part is being able to trade that SP on the market. The skillpoint extractor imo, should apply the SP into 'unallocated' skillpoints on the character that used the extractor.
In that way, the service follows the thought process of the dev blog. You allow, at some cost, a person to undo training mistakes they made early on in their Eve career.
Allowing players with the isk to do so, to consume vast amount of skillpoints for isk, is.. I don't even understand why that idea came into being. |
The Slayer
Hole Violence Whole Squid
280
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:57:56 -
[78] - Quote
I prefer the previous idea Soundwave was batting around : you can buy skill time you missed through plex. But that was a few years ago now. |
Hendrink Collie
Blood Oath Foundation Adaptation.
71
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:58:08 -
[79] - Quote
Querns wrote:Cynthia Aishai wrote:worst idea ever
even worse than jump fatigue and the fleet warp change You're like a critical mass of uninformed opinions, aren't you?
Jump Fatigue along with sov changes allow little nerd groups like mine have sov now, I love it.
The now temporarily scraped fleet warp changes were interesting, and honestly could have worked with some tweaks (allow fleet warps to new alliance bms for example)
This change... has potential, but the underbelly needs major work to keep the trolls from weaponizing it. |
Marsha Mallow
2618
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:58:10 -
[80] - Quote
Do-ho this is going to be good. However this one goes, fair play for picking up on this and having the nerve to put something up. Someone put Rise in the CCP bombshelter with some pizza.
Supported in principle.
I'll write something longer in response later, as I'd recommend everyone does. Yelling 'WTF NO for ~obvious reasons~!!!1!' is not an argument. Let's see your reasons for objection. This needs to be clearly argued from a personal perspective, how people think it will affect the existing playerbase, and the game going forward.
I'm sure this will explode into a delightful campaign of hysteria off eve-o, but don't worry. The first page of this thread confirmed exactly who to watch, as usual.
One early consideration might be the effects on the existing character market and participants. There are a lot of people with a vested interest here (myself included) who may react strongly to protect their interests. This is a multi-trillion ISK market and cashing out is a lengthy affair. There might need to be a more detailed roadmap to change from the current system with a built in transition period. That would actually alleviate some of the cash pumping accusations. If you can get past the screeching phase, that is.
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
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Esnaelc Sin'led
AdAstra. Beach Club
29
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:58:14 -
[81] - Quote
grevicious wrote:is this the same way WoW went PAY TO WIN. game dead
If you think about it very deeper, it's already the case with the Character Bazaar. You don't have SkillPoints ? But you have real life money ? Buy a 100 PLEX bundle and you can get any character, with any amount of SkillPoints your money permits it. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
712
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:58:28 -
[82] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:OK, I've calmed down slightly. Let's give you guys some specific feedback so that you understand what a ******* terrible idea this is.
I have an alt I bought on the bazaar years ago. He has 82 million SP. Much of it is focused on mining and reprocessing, skills I haven't used in years. As long as I'm a whale...
Step 1: Pump a ton of Aurum into CCP to buy 84 Transneural Skill Extractors. Step 2: Use them to create 84 Transneural Skill Packets for a total of 42 million SP. Step 3: Consume 25 of them myself to bring myself to 50 million SP, dumping my useless SP and focusing this alt on incursion-running. Step 4: Sell 59 Transneural Skill Packets on the market, making it more or less unnecessary for me to actually run incursions for a while since 59 of these are going to be worth a ton of ISK.
And that doesn't even get into the matter of using those 84 Packets to more or less instantly jump a new character from 0 to 40 million SP. Character ages and birth dates will become completely meaningless.
Again, I can do these things as long as I'm a whale and pump a ton of money into CCP for the 84 Transneural Skill Extractors.
Am I missing anything here? Who in God's name thought this was a good idea? Can we sell them to Riot?
But it'll net CCP around $3000, what's not to like?
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
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Julius Flavus
Flavii Industries Blackguard Mercenaries
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:58:35 -
[83] - Quote
Pay to win anyone?
Buying a character is one thing. Buying actual skill points and applying them to your character is another.
Stop the flow of development resources on this now. |
Kazikings
Cassandras Corps Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:58:47 -
[84] - Quote
Please dont make this EVER happen!
My personal arguments and reasons against this are
This removes or softens up one unique aspect of EVE: Your decissions regarding skilling have consequences forever
One more uniqueness and difference compared to most other MMOs is removed
You are going to soften EVE even more up, taking more and more from its dark and harsh flair and appearance
Implementing this means a softcore version of a skillpoint respecc designed as RMT with obvious implications
This change will prevent some people from carefully planning their skills and make characters more even and straightforward
Long term planning and finally getting a long skill to V is a memorable and fond moment and should not be buyabe for AUR
Oh god WHY? Simply: DONT do this! |
virm pasuul
FRISKY BUSINESS. No Handlebars.
319
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:59:00 -
[85] - Quote
As someone who's reaction to this was negative, can anyone clearly express logically not emotionally why this is a bad idea please?
Anything that can currently be bought for ISK can be bought by extension for RL cash via PLEX. e.g. in a previous post, almost any ship can be bought for ISK, if you have enough ISK, so aren't ship already for sale for real life money? As long as CCP doesn't make new special edition ships out of thin air and sell them for RL cash, what's the difference?
This would put skill points in the same bucket, and most importantly they would be player created skill points on the player to player market, not CCP out of thin air skill points. |
Joseph Dewald
The Desolate Order Brave Collective
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:59:19 -
[86] - Quote
So what I'm hearing is that training is now almost worthless and instead I should be grinding for isk? Not a fan of this idea. If you really want to implement some sort of respec idea, make it so that you can't sell the sp and can only apply them to your own character. |
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2022
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:59:21 -
[87] - Quote
Querns wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Querns wrote:They are pretty much forced to do this, honestly.
Otherwise, everyone in eve would generate bastard farms whose only purpose is funneling SP to their main character. They are not forced to to this. CCP instead should be coerced to develop proper, engaging and awesome game content that makes people want to stick around (see a couple of my suggestions for example *openly brags about it*). This is not that content, this is nothing but yet another money grab that requires no real effort or development cost from CCP to actually improve the game. Developer time is not fungible, and CCP is able to work on multiple things at once to no ill effect. This argument comes up time and time again any time something even remotely unpalatable arrives and I'm tired of hearing it. Then plug your ears and block my posts. I do not see CCP being capable of working on multiple things at once without compromising all they work on with lots of detrimental effects. They were not capable of developing Dust besides of EVE, they were not capable of developing Sov properly while working on what? Gunjack? And went on vacation directly after the release. They left the industry part unfinished because they needed to work on sov. The list goes on and on and on.
But yes, CCP's dev time is not fungible and they themselves time and again stress that things are expensive in terms of dev time. Yet, CCP wastes their dev time on SKINs, wastes their dev time on this garbage, wasts it on what not mobile while the main game they have needs so many fixes, they'd be busy for another decade just to fix the bugs and broken things before introducing new content. And they waste their not fungible dev time on things that do not improve the game itself, but only introduce more ways to grab money. You may not want to hear that anymore, but if you are fed up of it, then do something against it.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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SilentAsTheGrave
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
356
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:59:33 -
[88] - Quote
Cynthia Aishai wrote:worst idea ever
even worse than jump fatigue and the fleet warp change Jump fatigue was an amazing change so you picked a bad analogy. |
lmmortalist
lmmortality Associates
87
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:59:43 -
[89] - Quote
A very bad idea. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1990
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:59:47 -
[90] - Quote
Izmaragd Dawnstar wrote:Querns wrote: They are pretty much forced to do this, honestly.
Otherwise, everyone in eve would generate bastard farms whose only purpose is funneling SP to their main character.
Oh, but people will do that. If your character has less than 80M skill points, 5:2 SP ratio nothing to sneeze at. Assuming you get an account running +4s on an ideal remap, it takes just under 8 days to generate the required 500000 SP. If you have 8 accounts running, your character essentially can get 200000 more SP every day, compared to only 62640 your get with +4s and an ideal remap. More than 3 times the amount. If this is not pay-to-win, I don't know what is. Why would you do this when you can just buy the skill packets hot off the market?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
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Trinity Windu
Dead Man Ops Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 15:59:59 -
[91] - Quote
Bad news bears |
Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
853
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:00:12 -
[92] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img] The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside.
Make sure the unallocated skillpoints are taken into account as the overall number of skill points, to avoid exploit where have low SP to begin with, and then pump your head full of unallocated skillpoints without deminishing return.
I look forward to extracting my old mining skills.
Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759
Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
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Scorpio DK
FireStar Inc Evictus.
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:00:47 -
[93] - Quote
ok my initial reaction was terrible idea
if you are going to bring out something like this then i recommend changing it a bit
restrict it to only the character using the item removed any ability to sell skill points on the market
example would be i have some skills i don't want i can use one of these to remove the skill and points and make them un-allocated but only to that character with no way to trade it so i can trade 500k of my current skill points for 50k un-allocated skill points but never trade it to another character.
i would also build in a hard cap per month of skill points you can swap over
|
Syphon Cursion
Nightmare Inc 01
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:01:08 -
[94] - Quote
Stupid idea just shoot ccps wallet in the face ull lose all your people asap |
Kazikings
Cassandras Corps Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:01:14 -
[95] - Quote
Kazikings wrote:Please dont make this EVER happen! My personal arguments and reasons against this are This removes or softens up one unique aspect of EVE: Your decissions regarding skilling have consequences forever One more uniqueness and difference compared to most other MMOs is removed You are going to soften EVE even more up, taking more and more from its dark and harsh flair and appearance Implementing this means a softcore version of a skillpoint respecc designed as RMT with obvious implications This change will prevent some people from carefully planning their skills and make characters more even and straightforward Long term planning and finally getting a long skill to V is a memorable and fond moment and should not be buyabe for AUR, neither ISK Oh god WHY? Simply: DONT do this!
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Abernie
Thoroughly Incompetent
169
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:01:51 -
[96] - Quote
When I saw the devblog, I chuckeld and was 110% sure I was linked to somekind of a troll site that just looked like the real deal.
Then the reality set it and I just sat here in utter confusion with my mouth gaping for a few minutes...
How can you possibly think this is a good idea? I was under the impression this team wasn't completely disconnected from reality and had some kind of an idea on what kind of ideas might be usable.
This kind of looks like a desperate cash grab. "Figure out something that makes people consume more PLEX and make it fast". This makes me think the TQ server upgrades are actually a huge marketing gamble, tossing a coin in the hopes that people think EVE is doing OK financially and start playing again.
I WANTED TO BELIEVE! Now I'm lost again...
I would love to see every CSM member reply to this thread with their opinion publically. Then I would like to see CCP's explanation as to why CSM members opposing this idea (I'm guessing the vast majority) have been ignored.
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Robnik Charante
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:01:56 -
[97] - Quote
This is horrifically bad. It won't kill EVE outright, but it'll maim it badly. I generally don't drama post about game changes (in fact I am usually willing to give them a shot), but this is just awful.
All of the "problems" mentioned with regard to the Character Bazaar are, in my opinion, actually interesting and positive gameplay elements. A character's name, appearance, history, sec status, faction standings, skill point allocation, remap status, implant set, jump clones, etc. all provide interesting gameplay and market choices. Making a good decision to purchase or sell a toon requires research and talking to other players - this is what EVE should be all about. It's completely open-ended, and very much in the spirit of the sandbox.
Now you're deprecating all of that with some really artificial skillpoint reallocation system that favors super-rich players despite the drawbacks you've put in place. To paraphrase your opening, you state that swapping mains in the current system is awkward. Well, guess what! You shouldn't be supporting that choice in the first place! Starting with a fresh toon and sticking with it through its normal progression is a critical EVE experience. Even if you purchase alts to supplement your main, I don't think there needs to be a mechanism to fast-track skill training on your main.
I have been playing this game very actively for two and a half years. I have never once felt limited by my SP in any regard. There's plenty to do and learn at each step along the way. If you do feel limited and are also wealthy, the character bazaar, MCT, and alt accounts are perfectly fine means to quickly acquire additional toons. By introducing "ISK-for-SP", you're inviting the sort of unfun "XP grinding" that most of us loathe from other MMOs. Please, don't bring this cancer to EVE. |
Izmaragd Dawnstar
EVE University Ivy League
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:02:24 -
[98] - Quote
Querns wrote:Why would you do this when you can just buy the skill packets hot off the market?
Oh, they can do that too, depending on what will be more economical. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Northern Coalition.
1829
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:02:32 -
[99] - Quote
two very dangerous things:
1. this allows experienced people who have done something "terrible" a fresh start WITH SP and WITHOUT having to use the bazarr
2. this excludes anyone that uses this feature from high level gameplay. applications from people who no longer hold their first character are already automatically denied from pretty much any corporation that's worth applying to. just because it allows the "bad" guys a fresh start |
Klarion Sythis
Lazerhawks
359
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:02:57 -
[100] - Quote
Everything in the game is already for sale if you want it to be via PLEX. You can buy characters, ships, whatever you want with RL money already. For those taking a principled stance of some kind, fine, but if people wanted it to be, the game can already be pay to win. No brakes on the bandwagon though. |
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Meltur
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:03:45 -
[101] - Quote
oh dear god. pls dont |
Cowboy Arnerette
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:04:16 -
[102] - Quote
Absolutely NO. In your effort to attract new players this will actually lose new players. Scenario: I'm a newbie and I buy a few million SP's, jump in to my first T2 or T3, have no idea how to fly it, undock and lose it within 10 minutes. My reaction would be to quit because I think that SP's are the only thing you need to win in this game and it's so not the case. Time spent on skilling is time spent on learning EVE. Nothing more, nothing less but this is a terrible idea, and I am by no means a vet. I'm barely 2 years old.
EDIT: BTW I've never once posted a response to any devblog in the past, not SOV changes, not industry changes, not jump fatigue changes, but this one I felt I can't stay silent on. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1994
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:04:32 -
[103] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Querns wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Querns wrote:They are pretty much forced to do this, honestly.
Otherwise, everyone in eve would generate bastard farms whose only purpose is funneling SP to their main character. They are not forced to to this. CCP instead should be coerced to develop proper, engaging and awesome game content that makes people want to stick around (see a couple of my suggestions for example *openly brags about it*). This is not that content, this is nothing but yet another money grab that requires no real effort or development cost from CCP to actually improve the game. Developer time is not fungible, and CCP is able to work on multiple things at once to no ill effect. This argument comes up time and time again any time something even remotely unpalatable arrives and I'm tired of hearing it. Then plug your ears and block my posts. I do not see CCP being capable of working on multiple things at once without compromising all they work on with lots of detrimental effects. They were not capable of developing Dust besides of EVE, they were not capable of developing Sov properly while working on what? Gunjack? And went on vacation directly after the release. They left the industry part unfinished because they needed to work on sov. The list goes on and on and on. But yes, CCP's dev time is not fungible and they themselves time and again stress that things are expensive in terms of dev time. Yet, CCP wastes their dev time on SKINs, wastes their dev time on this garbage, wasts it on what not mobile while the main game they have needs so many fixes, they'd be busy for another decade just to fix the bugs and broken things before introducing new content. And they waste their infugible dev time on things that do not improve the game itself, but only introduce more ways to grab money. You may not want to hear that anymore, but if you are fed up of it, then do something against it. Hey, it was a (perhaps na+»ve) hope that it would convince someone to stop framing their argument around a patently untrue concept.
All you do when you scream "WHY DIDN'T YOU WORK ON XYZ INSTEAD????" is prove your own short-sightedness. It dilutes your entire argument and makes you look like a fool, for an easily-preventable reason.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Tobias Frank
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:04:37 -
[104] - Quote
CCP seriously? Worst change ever. |
Reddas Vaan
Peoples Liberation Army Fidelas Constans
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:04:45 -
[105] - Quote
No, CCP, NO.
How in the name of god did u come up with this strange idea that WILL RUIN THE WHOLE GAME? Explain to me! |
Matterall
Aliastra Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:04:45 -
[106] - Quote
I know some people that would pay big bucks to remove some corps from their history. Think about it! |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1994
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:05:49 -
[107] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:two very dangerous things:
1. this allows experienced people who have done something "terrible" a fresh start WITH SP and WITHOUT having to use the bazarr
Why is this a bad thing?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
John Selth
Collapsed Out Pandemic Legion
27
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:08:09 -
[108] - Quote
This is probably the most exploitable SP system eve thought of (maybe just under the PLEX for SP refund idea tossed around once). All you are doing is allowing us older players who can pool so much more isk, to essentially cut our training time to nothing while boosting our useful alt capacity. That and destroying the economy behind the character bazaar and the need to buy useful characters to meet the demands you are currently facing. |
Faenir Antollare
The Idiot Kings Get Off My Lawn
445
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:08:33 -
[109] - Quote
Dear Team Size Matters,
Our beloved EvE matters too, so please NO!!!
RiP BooBoo
26/7/1971 - 23/7/2014
My Lady My Love My Life My Wife
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
14975
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:08:41 -
[110] - Quote
Please just don't.
It's just a way to pay your way ahead, if you're looking to make newer people be able to do more, why not make it so that newer pilots train quicker in order to get those things they hope for then it slows down after 15-20m or similar.
If there's one thing I appreciate in regards to training, it is that I could actually take time and learn while training for something, plus I had the goal of going somewhere. Buying your way into FOTM is just stupid and only encourage people with money to get ahead and then lose interest.
I'm sure selling SP is great short term, but I seriously doubt it will make people stick around for longer. Farming SP is the new thing...
I can only see this as another step to use money to correct mistakes, so name change, race change and all that is just around the corner.
With all the guides and templates on how to train buying SP isn't adding anything good, nor the reason as you already have the best support you can get. I have no regrets for accidentally training the wrong things and just made me enjoy the game even more.
/c
GÿàGÿàGÿà Secure 3rd party service GÿàGÿàGÿà
Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'
Twitter @Chribba
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Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen Grumpy Space Bastards
242
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:09:01 -
[111] - Quote
Matterall wrote:I know some people that would pay big bucks to remove some corps from their history. Think about it!
It also has the neat property of making us unable to gauge a character's max SP by looking at the character age.
Today you can just figure on 2M per month of character age, 25M points/year or so.
The concept of just buying 50M points for about 25 plex is interesting though, I haven't decided if it's good or bad either way.
Another interesting thing is that if you're below ~50M SP, it's cheaper to buy these skill packets than it is to respec. Spend all the packets on your off-spec skill training like drones, armor, shields, leadership, etc. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1068
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:09:18 -
[112] - Quote
GOD NO!!! |
Golemag
Deep Space Explorers Inc. GaNg BaNg TeAm
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:09:47 -
[113] - Quote
Julius Flavus wrote:Pay to win anyone?
Buying a character is one thing. Buying actual skill points and applying them to your character is another.
Stop the flow of development resources on this now.
And pat the one who came up with it on the head from me pls. |
MonkeyBusiness Thiesant
randomly named no tax corp v2
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:09:48 -
[114] - Quote
Initial reaction negative for me, but I can see the logic in that isk>SP already exists on the bazaar. The worry is more with the innate structure of the game, that imperceptible element that gives us some identity and affinity with our characters. This change is ripping at that fabric, and I'm not sure the (pretty obscure) benefits are worth that risk.
With regard to the boundaries: just below 50m gets 80% payback, just above gets 40%. That's far too binary, and a massive leap. It should probably be a continuum of some sort, or at least more bins to it.
I also have concern about the effect on plex prices. |
Lord Battlestar
Faulcon de Lazy
216
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:10:19 -
[115] - Quote
I think this is a terrible idea, if anything it doesn't really do anything but encourage people to buy sp without knowing how to actually use it. Then these people buy sp into big ships lose them and then quit anyhow.
I once podded myself by blowing a huge fart.
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Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
426
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:10:28 -
[116] - Quote
Absolutely not.
I have skills that I rather wished I wouldn't have trained, yes. We all do. But at the time we trained them, they were worth it enough to us to take the time to train. It was a decision we made, it's a decision we live with. Being able to get back SP negates that decision-making process.
Here's a quick scenario: My industry alts, already fully trained, are no longer training. I start training them again. They never leave their station, so a pair of +5's along with Min / Max'ed attributes on a large skill or three means I can pump out 2700 SP per hour in perfect safety. In 8 days, I've already pumped out over 500k SP (518,400). Drain the SP, sell for a profit, repeat.
There's no risk involved. I'm not losing any SP because the characters aren't training any more. They have the necessary skills at the necessary levels and never undock. There's zero risk and I'm not making a single sacrifice.
Pump'n'dump cyno alts.
Pump'n'dump PI alts.
Pump'n'dump Industry alts.
Pump'n'dump Alts, period.
If you want to give people the ability to customize their characters, add another option to the character sales: For an additional PLEX, you can rename your character, but the original name remains as an alias and remains unavailable to be reused. We already have the ability to resculp, and if it's really such a problem that someone's purchased char is Gallente instead of Caldari or Minmatar instead of Amarr, offer the ability to do a complete character redesign (while keeping the SP) for an additional PLEX, too boot.
I am absolutely against the purchase of SP outside of full-character purchases. We make decisions when we train skills. We make decisions when we purchase characters. If somebody doesn't do the necessary research on the character they're purchasing to find out that they have a bad history, that is on the purchaser.
Every time somebody buys a character, they've made the decision that the skills on that character are more valuable to them than the ISK. If the name, race, bloodline, history, etc., are so badly to somebody's disliking, they won't purchase the character. If they do, they consider that character's positives to be greater than their negatives.
Planning a trip to Thera? Check out http://eve-scout.com/ for a list of the current connections.
Once you've made your choice, join the EvE-Scout channel and request a scout to make sure your connection is clear!
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Anthar Thebess
1327
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:10:59 -
[117] - Quote
Alliance skill point reimbursement for lost T3 skills incoming. Character farms ( maybe CCP want this ) - aka why not put 2x +5 and train at maximum skill point/h ratio without leaving the station ever and then trading this or transferring to other character.
NO!
Why you don't listen to us ? People asked , if you buy character off baazar, allow to change name and look for additional plexes.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2022
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:10:59 -
[118] - Quote
Querns wrote:Hey, it was a (perhaps na+»ve) hope that it would convince someone to stop framing their argument around a patently untrue concept.
All you do when you scream "WHY DIDN'T YOU WORK ON XYZ INSTEAD????" is prove your own short-sightedness. It dilutes your entire argument and makes you look like a fool, for an easily-preventable reason. I do not scream, that is the CFC's territory of getting their point across. And listing years of failed attempts at working on several things at once can hardly be called short-sighted. But I get your point. I am not the customer CCP needs anymore, I argue too much, inquire too much, question things too much, I am not satisfied easily enough. CCP needs customers who meek and mild about everything. In fact, this is what the entire economy needs these days because if you just scratch a little bit on the surface, you would get a heart attack about what you are actually subjected to.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen Grumpy Space Bastards
242
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:11:05 -
[119] - Quote
I'm also excited to see the kill mails that drop a stack of these things. |
McBorsk
Multispace Technologies Inc Yulai Federation
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:11:05 -
[120] - Quote
I don't like any of this. What I do want is a post in every sale thread declaring who is the seller and who is the buyer and when the transaction took place. Sometimes those details can be unclear, especially when you go back a few years and look. Private sales especially can lack almost all details beyond the name of the character that is being sold. You don't even know if the char sold or not.
Make my job a little bit easier, please.
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iProbeOut
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:11:07 -
[121] - Quote
This is a great change. Ignore all the kneejerk reactions. |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
342
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:11:23 -
[122] - Quote
I still don't get how this went from a perfectly fine 'Yeah, we need to improve the search on the character bazaar, since it's tedious and hard to use' to just scrapping it altogether and make some more money grabbing options by increasing plex useage.
Also, you're not buying skillpoints on the character bazaar, you are buying a character:
- If you don't want a character with tainted history, do your research and contact corps in it's history. It's not rocket science. If you don't care about history your search is simpler. - If you want a perfect skilled character you're going to have a premium. - If you want a quality name or anything, you're going to have to pay.
I don't even understand why these points are considered bad and in need of a change. The only thing this will do is give new players the impression they need to be perfect skilled to do anything in the game.
Why are you catering to the lowest common denomanator?
Baddest poster ever
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Ben Musana
Black Nano Ops
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:11:38 -
[123] - Quote
First of all - i dont like the idea of trading skillpoints.
We all need our time for getting our skill goal to be reached. One of the major reason why im plaing eve since 2008 is the skill tree and there possibilities. Open this to the market will ruin the game.
A 5M SP Character could buy SP to speed things up. OK the character has now the skillpoints for there new 'toys' but still not the isk to buy it - well CCP offers PLEX for sell to serve this kind of problem. So CCP has no reason to lower the plex price and so on ... just think about it. - Some could say: CCP gets greedy!
A lot of ppl have 'unused' alts and are happy if they could 'transfer' there SP to there main, but is it worth a hole 'system of SP trade' for it with all there consequences ..... NO!
Electronic Arts has gone a similar way with Need 4 Speed World. They where to greedy - changed to much! Now the servers are offline!
Does i see the end on the horizon comming ? Is it still worth to play this game ? I have no answer for that, but i really hope that enough of us, will shoot jita if they bring that feature (SP trading) on the market!
Regards
Ben Musana |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1994
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:11:48 -
[124] - Quote
John Selth wrote:This is probably the most exploitable SP system eve thought of (maybe just under the PLEX for SP refund idea tossed around once). All you are doing is allowing us older players who can pool so much more isk, to essentially cut our training time to nothing while boosting out useful alt capacity. That and destroying the economy behind the character bazaar and the need to buy useful characters to meet the demands you are currently facing. Uh, what?
How does this change affect your ability to train alts?
You can still convert SP to isk via making bastard farms, and as a bonus it won't require six months of outlay to do it.
If it's destroying your cottage industry, boo hoo. (And I say this as a person who keeps about half his accounts going by training in-demand pilots to sell on the character bazaar.)
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Castimirr
Seafalcon Industries The Sinful Legion
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:11:53 -
[125] - Quote
I absolutely oppose this. Please do not do this. |
Harkin Issier
Moira. Villore Accords
43
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:12:04 -
[126] - Quote
Wow CCP.
Dipping to new lows yet again.
inb4: Join EXAMPLE ALLIANCE today and receive a booster pack of 500,000 XP
Buying SP is a garbage mechanic. |
Tzu Wu
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:12:22 -
[127] - Quote
Querns wrote:Gilbaron wrote:two very dangerous things:
1. this allows experienced people who have done something "terrible" a fresh start WITH SP and WITHOUT having to use the bazarr
Why is this a bad thing?
It's not and the amount of overreacting in this thread is beyond comical. This isn't allowing people to p2w for skill points, it's trading EXISTING SP's. The diminishing returns almost make it almost useless for a character above a certain amount of SP. I see this being extremely useful for helping alts along the way i.e. ratting alts,cyno alts, trading alts. I personally think the old guard of this game need to get over themselves and let CCP make some extra money. Game is 12 years old and consistently losing players. |
sharpscg
Shiva Northern Coalition.
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:12:48 -
[128] - Quote
I don't like this.
Developing a character and developing its capabilities over years is something important to eve. People like me with tons of alts are already not really connected to their toons, being able to freely shift around SP will make most players loose even more touch with their characters. The way buying characters works right now is completely fine. |
Soltys
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:13:35 -
[129] - Quote
Quote:Step 2: Use them to create 84 Transneural Skill Packets for a total of 42 million SP.
You have to extract that SP pool from your characters.
Do you have 42 million SP lying around to spare ?
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1994
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:13:38 -
[130] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Querns wrote:Hey, it was a (perhaps na+»ve) hope that it would convince someone to stop framing their argument around a patently untrue concept.
All you do when you scream "WHY DIDN'T YOU WORK ON XYZ INSTEAD????" is prove your own short-sightedness. It dilutes your entire argument and makes you look like a fool, for an easily-preventable reason. I do not scream, that is the CFC's territory of getting their point across. And listing years of failed attempts at working on several things at once can hardly be called short-sighted. But I get your point. I am not the customer CCP needs anymore, I argue too much, inquire too much, question things too much, I am not satisfied easily enough. CCP needs customers who meek and mild about everything. In fact, this is what the entire economy needs these days because if you just scratch a little bit on the surface, you would get a heart attack about what you are actually subjected to. Don't lie; you'll keep playing this game anyways. Don't try and pull the "LOL I QUIT" bit; it never works.
I like that you had to resort to a character affiliation barb, too. It really helps your position.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1994
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:15:38 -
[131] - Quote
sharpscg wrote:I don't like this.
Developing a character and developing its capabilities over years is something important to eve. People like me with tons of alts are already not really connected to their toons, being able to freely shift around SP will make most players loose even more touch with their characters. The way buying characters works right now is completely fine. Did you miss the part where it costs ISK to affect the transfer?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Chad Wylder
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
37
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:15:52 -
[132] - Quote
Buying and selling SP that can be immediately plugged in and used = bad. Don't do it.
I could see something like an SP booster MAYBE. Melt down 256,000 SP (The amount for a rank 1 skill at level V) from your character that creates a booster. The booster can be used to train SP faster for the next 256,000 SP. Adding 2 boosters would train SP the same speed as one booster, it would just do that for the next 512,000 SP. And so on. (So each booster increases the amount of SP trained total, not the speed at which they train)
The training speed multiplier could then be affected by the character's total number of skill points.
0-5 million skillpoint characters train 100% faster 5-50 million skillpoint characters train 75% faster 50-80 million skillpoint characters train 50% faster >80 million skillpoint characters train 25% faster
Something like that. Still not ideal, but if CCP adds any kind of SP trading I'd prefer that it not just be unallocated SP that's immediately usable.
Also you could have boosters locked into a specific category. So if Character A melts down a mining skill then they get a mining booster. If Character B uses a mining booster then it only kicks in when a mining skill is being trained (if another skill is being trained though then that won't count against the SP total for the booster). |
PhantomVoice
Kernel of War Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:17:19 -
[133] - Quote
Great change ! No more useless SPs for the win !
And stop whining scrubs ! We are already paying for SPs .aka. Character Bazaar. |
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
882
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:17:41 -
[134] - Quote
Nope nope nope. We do not like pay to win.
If you want to help new players do more stuff more quickly, create more classes of SoCT ships that don't have any skill requirements and give a bunch of them to new players for completing some one-time-only newbro Epic Arc.
Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
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Mr Blu
Pajsers inc.
2
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:17:58 -
[135] - Quote
I think this is good idea. Paying for skills is already happening in character trading. Nothing new there. Only people against this are elitist bittervets. |
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2022
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:19:55 -
[136] - Quote
Querns wrote:Don't lie; you'll keep playing this game anyways. Don't try and pull the "LOL I QUIT" bit; it never works.
I like that you had to resort to a character affiliation barb, too. It really helps your position. This is also the venue of CFC people to get their points heard. I do not need to threaten with my useless unsubbing. I am not interested in leaving the game and rather want to form it with my contributions. Threatening to leave accomplishes nothing, but I guess you know that best because it's your mind game.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
882
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:19:57 -
[137] - Quote
One way I can see this working is if the SP boost is only temporary and maybe fries your clone after 24h?
That way you could fly the minmatar battleship your alliance wants you to fly for that one Op, then you lose the SP and have a mega migraine that impairs SP training for a cooldown period afterwards?
Think of it like overheating your skill queue lol
Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
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CCP Terminus
C C P C C P Alliance
412
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:20:02 -
[138] - Quote
Scott Ormands wrote:On one hand im excited to get back the 3m sp wasted in mining on a carrier toon, on the other what is to stop me from trainging a command ship and then extracting all the boosting skills, so to speak. in that way i could still fly the command ship but would have gotten my boosting skills transfered into some other skill or sold for isk. its a way to beat the prereq system for almost anything.
The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare. We also plan on having this be something you can only do in stations, so you wouldn't be stuck in in space in a ship you can no longer fly.
@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters
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Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
126355
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:20:05 -
[139] - Quote
Idiots... Kinda glad my PC is out of action thinking up this crap...
FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - All I want from Xmas is YOUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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Monasucks
BLACK SQUADRON. RAZOR Alliance
148
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:20:24 -
[140] - Quote
Peter Powers wrote:Quote: 0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added
really? old players have to pay 10 times the price new players do for skillpoints? as if it wasn't enought that most new content introduced is focused on new players, no now vets are actively being punished for sticking with the game?
Looks like CCP f*** up even more.. First take away the content for high skilled players.. than introduce that fozziesov.. really NO don't do it.
h4kun4 wrote:im sorry, but i think this is the most terrible idea ive read since fozziesov
Even worser.. really don't just don't. Instaltly delete that dev blog.. and hope not more are reading this..
Sidenote:
Remember last time you did it wrong CCP ? you were loosing players.. and looking at the stats at the moment you are not albe to loose more players.. introduce content for us 100m+ SP players again.. We can fly cruisers, frigs etc. since years? Ever though of that we might want to do something else?
Can I haz you're stuff?
[i][b]A good worker is a live worker. Free to live - and work! A bad worker is a dead worker; and vice versa. Don't be a bad worker; bad workers are slaves, and dead. Payday for good workers has been postponed indefinitely. Pa
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Insidious
Hax. Shadow Cartel
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:20:25 -
[141] - Quote
Oligatory nope
>> Keep improving your new player experience, tutorials etc and the little [quality of life] things
>> Making isk is easy. apart from plexing reduce that
>> Prey the new null sec, and other game systems is good enough to create the hype
Problem solved hurrah \o/ |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
1009
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:20:33 -
[142] - Quote
Today is the day you killed EVE.
Not today spaghetti.
|
Tzu Wu
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:21:15 -
[143] - Quote
Mr Blu wrote:I think this is good idea. Paying for skills is already happening in character trading. Nothing new there. Only people against this are elitist bittervets.
Exactly. The Character Bazaar is already technically "pw2" for SP and the only real difference is you're buying an entire character on there. I'd much rather be able to sell my SP used for Mackinaws,Hulks,Orcas,even capitals since I never fly them instead of being forced to sell the entire character. Works out on both sides and might even lead to less characters changing hands. |
Bariolage
Control F9
45
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:21:18 -
[144] - Quote
No heavy vitriol, just adding to the chorus of no.
There are better ways to soften the various problems in the skill system.
I do see how it seems an attempt was made to address some perceived need, but when an idea needs such a long narrative directing lead at the beginning of the blog post, maybe it should be considered that the writer is trying to convince themselves as much as their audience.
Please don't do this. |
Just Some Random-Guy
Thunderwaffles Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:21:35 -
[145] - Quote
Best thing CCP has ever done |
Johny Rambo
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:22:10 -
[146] - Quote
The devblog seems to suggest it has all to do with character bazaar, but instead it revolves into money based skillpoint trading... How the hell you came from "character bazaar revamp" to this terrible idea, within same devblog article? |
Horiz Rin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:22:26 -
[147] - Quote
Cant't find a face or a palm big enough for this idea.
Why not let people buy skillpoints direct from the market - 100sp per X isk . That'd appear to achieve the same result - lots of plex going to CCP so that 1 day old alts could be fully skilled.
handige harrie wrote:I still don't get how this went from a perfectly fine 'Yeah, we need to improve the search on the character bazaar, since it's tedious and hard to use' to just scrapping it altogether and make some more money grabbing options by increasing plex useage.
Also, you're not buying skillpoints on the character bazaar, you are buying a character:
Well said |
Ihfrit
State Protectorate Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:23:13 -
[148] - Quote
as a player returning from my extended break i do every few years .. you just made me want to perma quit. this is an awful idea making this game pay to win. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2002
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:23:31 -
[149] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Querns wrote:Don't lie; you'll keep playing this game anyways. Don't try and pull the "LOL I QUIT" bit; it never works.
I like that you had to resort to a character affiliation barb, too. It really helps your position. This is also the venue of CFC people to get their points heard. I do not need to threaten with my useless unsubbing. I am not interested in leaving the game and rather want to form it with my contributions. Threatening to leave accomplishes nothing, but I guess you know that best because it's your mind game. It's the venue of all people to get their points heard. You're just focusing on the Imperium pilots, for a reason I am not sure of yet.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
1009
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:23:44 -
[150] - Quote
It's bullsh!t like this that makes everyone learn to never trust CCP.
Not today spaghetti.
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Braden Fanguard
Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:23:49 -
[151] - Quote
Tzu Wu wrote:[quote=Mr Blu]I think this is good idea. Paying for skills is already happening in character trading. Nothing new there. Only people against this are elitist bittervets.
Hey there, yea hi. Not a bittervet, still think this is a **** idea.
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Josef Djugashvilis
3002
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:23:49 -
[152] - Quote
If I give you (CCP) enough money, can I have all the skill points available in the game please.
The proposed idea is so bad, it is funny, even funnier than the 'loot spew' idea a couple of years ago, but with much worse consequences for the game.
CCP should just get the begging bowl out, it would go down better with the players.
Lordy...
This is not a signature.
|
Cowboy Arnerette
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:24:26 -
[153] - Quote
Mr Blu wrote:I think this is good idea. Paying for skills is already happening in character trading. Nothing new there. Only people against this are elitist bittervets.
Not at all true. If you look at the length of time of characters posting in this thread you'll find that very few are vets (unless you define "vet" as over 1 year old). |
Squid Tsutola
The Church of Awesome
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:26:06 -
[154] - Quote
Well, EVE was fun while it lasted. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2003
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:26:46 -
[155] - Quote
Cowboy Arnerette wrote:Mr Blu wrote:I think this is good idea. Paying for skills is already happening in character trading. Nothing new there. Only people against this are elitist bittervets. Not at all true. If you look at the length of time of characters posting in this thread you'll find that very few are vets (unless you define "vet" as over 1 year old). Clearly you have never heard of the posting alt.
Like, seriously. People actually choose to hide their affiliations when posting on eve-o. They're ashamed of who they are.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
1009
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:27:02 -
[156] - Quote
I'll up the anty:
If this isn't scrapped by Monday morning next week I'm giving away everything I have and biomassing my characters.
Not today spaghetti.
|
Tzu Wu
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:27:05 -
[157] - Quote
Ben Musana wrote:First of all - i dont like the idea of trading skillpoints.
We all need our time for getting our skill goal to be reached. One of the major reason why im plaing eve since 2008 is the skill tree and there possibilities. Open this to the market will ruin the game.
A 5M SP Character could buy SP to speed things up. OK the character has now the skillpoints for there new 'toys' but still not the isk to buy it - well CCP offers PLEX for sell to serve this kind of problem. So CCP has no reason to lower the plex price and so on ... just think about it. - Some could say: CCP gets greedy!
A lot of ppl have 'unused' alts and are happy if they could 'transfer' there SP to there main, but is it worth a hole 'system of SP trade' for it with all there consequences ..... NO!
Electronic Arts has gone a similar way with Need 4 Speed World. They where to greedy - changed to much! Now the servers are offline!
Does i see the end on the horizon comming ? Is it still worth to play this game ? I have no answer for that, but i really hope that enough of us, will shoot jita if they bring that feature (SP trading) on the market!
Regards
Ben Musana
I hate to break it to you and others who think like you but CCP is a business, it is their job to make money. All I hear from a lot of clueless EVE players is "CCP is greedy!, they want more money!". Without money to game doesn't operate. Not really hard to figure out.
>but i really hope that enough of us, will shoot jita if they bring that feature (SP trading) on the market!
Oh noes,not an in-game riot because EVE players don't understand the concept that it takes money to operate an MMO,the horror! |
Gevlin
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
267
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:27:08 -
[158] - Quote
I do not like the idea of Un-allocated. Points as it may end up promoting the flavor of the month turn around very quickly, instead of striving for the goal.
This also effect the learning implants and skill mapping - This feels like a power creep over the old system.
I would at a 100 million skill points cap this system. By this time the player has several option to play and is beginning to specialize into something major.
On of the things that make eve attractive and long lived is the gradual growth of the character, the fight to get there and fight to keep us were we are.
I do like the limited use of this for new players who will want to shell in the cash to get a head start but this should not be a tool for veterans.
Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again.
|
Tzu Wu
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:27:51 -
[159] - Quote
Sexy Cakes wrote:I'll up the anty:
If this isn't scrapped by Monday morning next week I'm giving away everything I have and biomassing my characters.
Can I have your stuff? |
Ren Dac
NED-Clan Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:28:17 -
[160] - Quote
No. Just no.
Whilst I would heartily welcome a way to 're-spec' by unlearning SP in, for instance, Orcas, and move them to something else I have already started, you could just shut up and take my money.
But this? No. Too exploitable. |
|
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1150
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:28:52 -
[161] - Quote
Querns wrote:Cowboy Arnerette wrote:Mr Blu wrote:I think this is good idea. Paying for skills is already happening in character trading. Nothing new there. Only people against this are elitist bittervets. Not at all true. If you look at the length of time of characters posting in this thread you'll find that very few are vets (unless you define "vet" as over 1 year old). Clearly you have never heard of the posting alt. Like, seriously. People actually choose to hide their affiliations when posting on eve-o. They're ashamed of who they are. if i weren't a member of the goonswarm master race i'd be pretty ashamed of who i was too |
Kilian Katar
Tenth Company
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:29:00 -
[162] - Quote
I have to ask, how do you come up with such STUPID ideas I mean really.
Apart from the obvious massive Plex price increase from yet another item being added that plex/aurum of which I told you that plex would increase when you first released the Aurum market and since when you continually add stuff onto it (most of which is crap btw) [Yes people I am wearing Guristas stuff, brought with the free Aurum we got when it first started]
But aside from that, I mean if that wasn't enough (because higher plex prices WILL push people away from the game) but as you mention Skill training is a fundamental part of the eve universe, it's basically eve's version of experience. When the learning skills were removed, yes new players had a much better experience, better than most of us older players, but we had to learn what to do with what SP we had, where to train into etc, coupled with the fact we didn't even have skill queues let alone 50 skills and however many days training.
What I'm trying to get at, is this idea seems very much aimed at newer players, who should be spending time on learning how to play the game, not selling plex and getting boat loads of sp, further more. you will be taking away another aspect of being able to gain intel in eve, when you look at a characters age, you know roughly what they can do, even if they are specialised but with this, a week old character could spend tonnes of real money on plex sell them buy the skill packs and hey presto instant HACs or Capitals....
So basically this is opening the door to the Pay to win that so many games these days are, but unlike them, eve has been around TWELVE YEARS do you really need to copy their game models?
In the blog you raise several valid points about the current character bazaar, but this "idea" doesn't change anything in that regard. and i find it perplexing that you would even consider something like this when you have fought against the renaming of characters (even just for those sold) and then you come up with this. It doesn't even seem viable either scientifically or lore wise to implement something like this where as a character name change you could easily turn around and have it related to the black market of the criminals of eve like the Guristas.
literally I cannot find one good thing from this idea you have pulled out of your ass, (and that is as polite as it gets from me at present) I find it insulting as an older eve player (my first toon was 07) and there are those even older, who will see near no benefit from this other than selling what minimal cross profession skills we got when we started the game. so it must be primarily aimed yet again at new players instead of trying to retain the old ones. I am just furious you would even consider this and frankly you have been wasting your time, and our money to come up with this when there is far more important things in eve that need to be addressed, let alone new content instead of this abomination. This truly is the worst idea I have ever heard since CCP announced dust wasn't coming to PC when it was being developed and that is saying something.
You go ahead with this idea, and you may as well close your doors and shut down your severs, because that alone is a game ender right there, let alone where it will lead to. |
Ayia Shardani
Suboc Industries
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:29:20 -
[163] - Quote
OK, this is a horrid idea. First off even if it is skills earned by someone else, you can still start a new pilot, drop a couple $100 in PLEX, buy up a ton of skill packets and become an instant vet (perfectly trained to boot). There is no downside to this, where as in the Bazaar, you can have bad corp history, bad faction and crappy name.
If you really wanna do something like this to add in a revenue stream, then add these items, but make them only work on the pilot who created the packets. Then we can fix old skills that we regret having trained and use them to focus on what we really do enjoy. AKA dumping those damn highsec mining mining skills in favor of some exploration or combat skills.
Making it so we can fix old mistakes, or reallocate SP from areas we either no longer enjoy or need, and focus more on what we like, would be a major boon. Also this could be on a flat rate, of say 5:4. With a 5:4 rate, you loose 20% of the SP you invested, but in return have SP that is functional rather than useless.
This keeps SP as the one thing in EVE that is still rather fixed, and meaningful to your long time players. This also allows players who buy from the Bazaar to fix SP that was badly trained or even make minorly sub par pilots in the bazaar be more valuable.
But for the love of God, don't put unallicated SP on the market. That is just a horrible idea. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2003
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:29:25 -
[164] - Quote
Sexy Cakes wrote:I'll up the anty:
If this isn't scrapped by Monday morning next week I'm giving away everything I have and biomassing my characters. CCP isn't motivated by your decision to hold your account hostage.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Tzu Wu
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:30:07 -
[165] - Quote
Ihfrit wrote:as a player returning from my extended break i do every few years .. you just made me want to perma quit. this is an awful idea making this game pay to win.
Character Bazaar is already p2w, what the difference here guys? Do tell. |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
821
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:30:56 -
[166] - Quote
Worst idea ever. |
Hendrink Collie
Blood Oath Foundation Adaptation.
72
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:31:02 -
[167] - Quote
Querns wrote:Cowboy Arnerette wrote:Mr Blu wrote:I think this is good idea. Paying for skills is already happening in character trading. Nothing new there. Only people against this are elitist bittervets. Not at all true. If you look at the length of time of characters posting in this thread you'll find that very few are vets (unless you define "vet" as over 1 year old). Clearly you have never heard of the posting alt. Like, seriously. People actually choose to hide their affiliations when posting on eve-o. They're ashamed of who they are.
Literally scared of what people think of them based off their ideas. Kinda sad really. |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
1009
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:31:16 -
[168] - Quote
Tzu Wu wrote:Sexy Cakes wrote:I'll up the anty:
If this isn't scrapped by Monday morning next week I'm giving away everything I have and biomassing my characters. Can I have your stuff?
Nope I'm going to blow it all up!
Not today spaghetti.
|
Kazikings
Cassandras Corps Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:31:35 -
[169] - Quote
I cant wait for CCPs reaction to this community outcry - if there will be any at all. |
Alt Pilot1
Hysera Innovations
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:32:58 -
[170] - Quote
This is brilliant!! |
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Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Sev3rance
181
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:33:06 -
[171] - Quote
Holy **** CCP, we've seen some bad ideas over the years, but this one takes the cake. |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
1009
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:34:13 -
[172] - Quote
Querns wrote:Sexy Cakes wrote:I'll up the anty:
If this isn't scrapped by Monday morning next week I'm giving away everything I have and biomassing my characters. CCP isn't motivated by your decision to hold your account hostage.
Ehh I'm not trying to do any sort of hostage thing with my account.
It's more of a fun way to go out. I've suffered enough of the bonehead decisions of CCP and if this makes it in the game it'll be my last straw.
Not today spaghetti.
|
Mr Grape Drink
Sugar - Water - Purple Winmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:34:29 -
[173] - Quote
Let me direct you to another funny SP related dev post from 12 years ago.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/live-fast-die-young/
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Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
1660
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:34:50 -
[174] - Quote
Posting in a EVE-O classic. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2003
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:35:19 -
[175] - Quote
Sexy Cakes wrote:Querns wrote:Sexy Cakes wrote:I'll up the anty:
If this isn't scrapped by Monday morning next week I'm giving away everything I have and biomassing my characters. CCP isn't motivated by your decision to hold your account hostage. Ehh I'm not trying to do any sort of hostage thing with my account. It's more of a fun way to go out. I've suffered enough of the bonehead decisions of CCP and if this makes it in the game it'll be my last straw. Then why post about it at all?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Daria3war
Sumbandila
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:35:31 -
[176] - Quote
Crazy idea but why not fix the current game and give people a reason to want to play. It is not new players that will save our game.
We need headline fights , SOV block warfare ..........
Not another 10k new players to farm |
Scott Ormands
The Desolate Order Brave Collective
58
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:35:38 -
[177] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Scott Ormands wrote:On one hand im excited to get back the 3m sp wasted in mining on a carrier toon, on the other what is to stop me from trainging a command ship and then extracting all the boosting skills, so to speak. in that way i could still fly the command ship but would have gotten my boosting skills transfered into some other skill or sold for isk. its a way to beat the prereq system for almost anything. The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare. We also plan on having this be something you can only do in stations, so you wouldn't be stuck in in space in a ship you can no longer fly.
For clarity does that mean i couldn't extract sp from something like weapon upgrades at all or just if I have advanced weapon upgrades or HAC's injected/trained. Also how would this work with modules. |
Tzu Wu
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
42
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:35:53 -
[178] - Quote
Kazikings wrote:I cant wait for CCPs reaction to this community outcry - if there will be any at all.
I guess it depends on if CCP is more interesting in retaining newer to mid level players than to appeasing a bunch of bittervets who can't understand the concepts of change. I still don't get the difference between trading existing SP from a character and buying a character off the bazaar. I mean,either way SP is being traded for isk/converted PLEX. |
Yin Zheng
Sequent Industry Out of Sight.
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:35:56 -
[179] - Quote
As someone who loves PVP and wants to try all the different stuff, but is struggling to do so due to being unable to properly fly this and that - thanks CCP. Thank you very much for this feature. It's great. Can't wait for it to be implemented. |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
1010
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:35:57 -
[180] - Quote
Querns wrote:Sexy Cakes wrote:Querns wrote:Sexy Cakes wrote:I'll up the anty:
If this isn't scrapped by Monday morning next week I'm giving away everything I have and biomassing my characters. CCP isn't motivated by your decision to hold your account hostage. Ehh I'm not trying to do any sort of hostage thing with my account. It's more of a fun way to go out. I've suffered enough of the bonehead decisions of CCP and if this makes it in the game it'll be my last straw. Then why post about it at all?
So my fellow forum trolls can get some entertainment from my butthurt.
Not today spaghetti.
|
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Blodhgarm Dethahal
Isogen 5
192
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:36:10 -
[181] - Quote
More or less you remove the consequences of your actions if you decide to go through with this, which would be a loss of a major theme of what Eve is. My choices have meaning, do not take them away from me.
Now, at most, I would like to see a direct transfer of the skills themselves (instead of the SP system you are proposing or the current all-or-nothing of buying a character itself). So if I want say, Amarr Battleship 5 but I have it trained to 3, I can pay someone to "swap" skills with me. He gets ISK + my level 3 skill, and I get Amarr Battleship 5.
In reality though I think its better and probably easier to just add a 'Previously Known As' tab on character sheet and let us rename characters after we buy them.
-Bl+¦d
http://bloodytravels.blogspot.com/ -á-- My travels through space.
|
Bruce Warhead
Fun is Pain
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:36:16 -
[182] - Quote
This is possible the worst change ever, people with a lot of money could at get their characters to an as high skill level as they want to. So PLEASE no!
This is far from changing the Character Bazzar. People what trained their Character, for years, to get skills, would have less skills then a 1 day old char, that some one invest thousands of $ into. You wouldn't be able to get any informations from a characters age, about his possible skills anymore.
At least, with the current system, you know if a character is like 5yr old he can have max that much skill points, and SOMEONE invest their time into training that character, made skillsplans, bought Implants and optimized the skillplans to get it done faster.
With this new system any random could start his character and just buy a lot of skillpoints and skill anything they wanted.
CPP please NO :( |
Villiars
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:36:22 -
[183] - Quote
Rather than knee-jerk say "This is a bad idea cause pay-to-win" why won't people say why its bad?
We already have "pay-to-win" in the character bazaar so don't pretend like the time you spent skilling from 0 to 100mill is sacred/special. The difference here is we have no way to understand the character's strength in terms of SP. So drop birth-date on the character sheet and just display total SP (or an SP range cause of opsec?)
I like this idea because I've trained useless skills that I'd like to refund (ex: anchoring V, trade skills, industry skills, science skills). Probably I'd send it to an alt or maybe just sell it.
As an improvement for the system It might be better to have the SP extracted be tied to the skill category. The purchaser injects the skills at a rate as proposed based on SP (maybe not as harsh) and now has a second option: inject them being tied to the original skill category OR take a 20% to inject them as purely unallocated skills to be used in any category of their choice. |
SpaceSaft
Capts Deranged Cavaliers Gentlemen's.Club
165
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:36:26 -
[184] - Quote
This is a terrible idea. Please don't. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3421
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:36:51 -
[185] - Quote
before everyone goes mental here a few reasons why it is not pay2win: - SP is traded between 2 chars, no SP is generated out of nothing - SP is lost in transaction (SP sink) - it is an alternative to an already existing feature (char bazzar) - it is mostly only useful for young chars
and last but not least having SP and winning are two different things.
would i use it? probably not because i have too much SP already. It would be highly inefficient to use it on this char. do i mind that noobs could potentially have high SP chars in their first month? no is this a good change? i don't know
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2005
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:36:55 -
[186] - Quote
Sexy Cakes wrote:Querns wrote:Sexy Cakes wrote:Querns wrote:Sexy Cakes wrote:I'll up the anty:
If this isn't scrapped by Monday morning next week I'm giving away everything I have and biomassing my characters. CCP isn't motivated by your decision to hold your account hostage. Ehh I'm not trying to do any sort of hostage thing with my account. It's more of a fun way to go out. I've suffered enough of the bonehead decisions of CCP and if this makes it in the game it'll be my last straw. Then why post about it at all? So my fellow forum trolls can get some entertainment from my butthurt. A likely story.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Alt Pilot1
Hysera Innovations
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:38:04 -
[187] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Great change. Best in years. However, could we get some more sample numbers like the possible Aurum costs?
I agree this is brilliant. It doesn't take anything away from the older players. And it turns Skill Points into a commodity that can be freely traded in the Market Window.
I am not sure why some people are against this, and say it's "using Aurum to buy SP"....
You are clearly NOT using Aurum to buy SP, because the character has to have existing SP to be extracted..... The Aurum is basically a payment for the extraction service. This is just a transfer of skill points, from one character to another.
The only reason why I think some people are opposed to this, is because they don't want to be instantly challenged by younger players who are willing to buy the skill packets. They probably want all the younger players to go through the same ordeal they did when they started paying, like waiting for months for skills to train. |
Incurso
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing Renaissance Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:39:28 -
[188] - Quote
I don't get all the hate EVE already has a pay to win option. Anyone with to much real life money and not enough brains or patience can drop several hundred dollars on a bought toon then a pile of PLEX. You may or may not figure out how to play well but you can go from zero to high skill and high end ships with out ever undocking once and in a few hours.
I assume it doesn't happen much because you have to pay ALOT to win.
IDEA: If this happens can we get some sort of slop bucket to train points we intend to sell? I have no interest in capital ships and I'm nearly max SP on the things I want. I would trade SP for ISK. I just don't want to give up the stuff I have now.
|
Max Kolonko
WATAHA. Unseen Wolves
562
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:39:29 -
[189] - Quote
How about NO?
Ok lets go into more details: 1. If I understood corectly it will cost some unspecified ammount of aurum to create a single 500 000 SP skill pack? So - depending on how much aurum it will end up costing I have to eaither braek down a plex and have tons of spare and useless aurum or it will cost me something around current 2 plex in aurum price. If it is the previous than I guess You can create multiple package for single plex, and there will be some sort of equilibrium number of removed SP that end up costing current 2 plexes. If it is the latter then You will end up with 2,5bill per 500 000 SP which is nowhere near what You get for multimilion char on the bazar. And most of it will go to CCP and not player (he had to brerak tons of plexes to put them on market in the first place so thats CCP Gain) 2. When You buy the pack its value is dependant on Your SP level, so its no longer 500 000 gained for 500 000 removed, but progressivly less - fair enough if thats how it should be. 3. I see merits of buyting SP instead of Character. How about option to sell SP by biomassing your character? Peaople will still get full char worth of SP, but those SP would be already pre-arranged into whatever original character had. And Price Would be simillar to what it is now (2 plex or 20 euro)
Read and support:
Don't mess with OUR WH's
What is Your stance on WH stuff?
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Lena Lazair
Sefrim
548
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:39:36 -
[190] - Quote
Scott Ormands wrote:...what is to stop me from trainging a command ship and then extracting all the boosting skills, so to speak. in that way i could still fly the command ship but would have gotten my boosting skills transfered into some other skill or sold for isk. its a way to beat the prereq system for almost anything.
This is the biggest mechanics issue I've seen pointed out so far. Easy enough to fix, of course... do not allow skills to be extracted that are pre-reqs for any other skills that will remain injected on the character.
D'KMal wrote:What if removing skillpoints was only possible if it killed/biomassed the character they were taken from? That way you would still essentially be buying a character (i.e. taking all their SP), just now you could start a new character with the name and looks that you wanted, and apply the whole of the first character's SP to them.
This is a system I wouldn't mind seeing. An alternative biomass button that costs two PLEX and puts a bunch of transneural paks into the account's redeeming tab based on SP of the character that was just melted down. If CCP is looking for more cash to stay afloat, then I'd even be fine with the PLEX cost of that button scaling to the number of paks created in this way in order to mirror the escalating $ CCP gets out of high-SP swaps under their new proposed system.
I'd be even happier to see TSP injection restricted to characters no older than 30-days at a fixed 1:1 rate, so this is truly a "for new characters" only thing and more closely resembles the current limitations of the bazaar. None of this scaling DR for older characters, just a flat cutoff after 30 day character age.
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Tzu Wu
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
42
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:39:38 -
[191] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:before everyone goes mental here a few reasons why it is not pay2win: - SP is traded between 2 chars, no SP is generated out of nothing - SP is lost in transaction (SP sink) - it is an alternative to an already existing feature (char bazzar) - it is mostly only useful for young chars
and last but not least having SP and winning are two different things.
would i use it? probably not because i have too much SP already. It would be highly inefficient to use it on this char. do i mind that noobs could potentially have high SP chars in their first month? no is this a good change? i don't know
Finally someone with some damned sense, thank you. |
Mira Stargazer
Epic Warfare
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:39:49 -
[192] - Quote
Don't do this!
I have feelings, I can smile - and murder while!
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2005
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:40:00 -
[193] - Quote
Alt Pilot1 wrote:Aryth wrote:Great change. Best in years. However, could we get some more sample numbers like the possible Aurum costs? I agree this is brilliant. It doesn't take anything away from the older players, and turns Skill Points a commodity that can be freely traded in the Market Window. I am not sure why some people are against this, and some say it's "using Aurum to buy SP".... You are clearly NOT using Aurum to buy SP, because the character has to have existing SP to be extracted..... The Aurum is basically a payment for the extraction service. The only reason why I think some people are opposed to this, is because they don't want to be instantly challenged by younger players...? The outrage is mostly falling into two camps.
The first camp is people who genuinely don't understand the change, or stopped reading halfway through to ejaculate some vitriol onto the forums as their emotional state demanded.
The second camp is people who feel that doggedly logging in over the course of more than a decade entitles them to some sort of special consideration. These people are threatened by the (largely illusory) vignette of a rich player supplanting their SP total by applying ISK directly to their forehead.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Tiala Skye
The Tax Evasion Foundation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:41:10 -
[194] - Quote
I think high level (higher than in the dev blog) this is a good idea, it simplifies the whole process.
I do however think it has been over-simplified.
Because you simply extract SP and sell it on for someone to get unallocated SP, it removes the investment choices for those who are doing the initial training.
Currently, some keen entrepreneur could train up a toon (or several) to be say... oh I don't know... a perfect off-grid-boosts pilot then sell them on the Bazaar.
I have no idea how much SP that actually costs, for argument's sake, let's say a bajillion.
Someone else comes along, and decides they want to become a perfect OGB, and pays a price based on how valuable that toon would be. Which depending on the meta might be less valuable than a bajillion SP in drones and more valuable than a bajillion SP in social skills.
Just like everything else that comes out of this wonderfully dynamic player-driven economy, there's a fluctuating supply and demand. There is risk and reward.
With the new system, those with the presence of mind to make good SP investments (with a view to selling on the Bazaar) are not being rewarded. Whereas it's a given that in the market, that not all investments will pay off, and sometimes due to the shifting meta the market will crash (or spike) -- keeping things dynamic.
I would much rather see a direct selling of skills. When selling a perfect OGB then it might be worth a bajillion isk today, but virtually worthless 6 months from now. Whereas say a bajillion SP invested in a perfect frigate pilot might stay at a steady half-a-bajillion for years.
One of the wonderful things about this game is that if you look closely enough at an aspect of it, and learn your craft, you can make money from it. You can quit your "day job" and become a career professional. That drives ambition. When you remove these career choices, you kill ambition, and going back to flipping burgers is not fun.
I get a feeling your idea may be an excellent way to fix broken metas. If, for example, in 6 months time OGB's get smacked with the nerfbat, and they go from being the most important ship in some fleets, to absolutely and entirely pointless, then you don't really need to deal with the fallout from that, because any unwanted SP investments can be sold and recycled into useful SP. Clever? Sure. Simple? No doubt. Effective? Probably. Lazy and reductive? Yes. Those too.
So, great idea, and I'd rather see it happen as you have proposed than not at all. However, I think you can do better to preserve the risk/reward excitement.
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Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
66
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:41:20 -
[195] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote: The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare.
Just bear in mind that - using the example above - some CS pilots won't have the Armored Warfare skill because of 'whatever you can fly before the change, you can fly after the change'. |
Soltys
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:41:34 -
[196] - Quote
Alt Pilot1 wrote:Aryth wrote:Great change. Best in years. However, could we get some more sample numbers like the possible Aurum costs? I agree this is brilliant. It doesn't take anything away from the older players. And it turns Skill Points into a commodity that can be freely traded in the Market Window. I am not sure why some people are against this, and say it's "using Aurum to buy SP".... You are clearly NOT using Aurum to buy SP, because the character has to have existing SP to be extracted..... The Aurum is basically a payment for the extraction service. The only reason why I think some people are opposed to this, is because they don't want to be instantly challenged by younger players...?
The attention span and reading ability of most that posted before is pretty low.
OTOH I'd rather see properly fixed pointless timewall that skills are, then providing workarounds for that with character bazaar or SP extractions (with a bit of mandatory cash shop on top). |
Manic Velocity
Emergent Dynamics
129
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:42:18 -
[197] - Quote
Just quoting what I wrote on the reddit thread, in the hopes that it's more visible to CCP:
Quote:The problem I have is that this alleviates the risks of buying a character from the Bazaar. Risks which Rise specifically outlines in the blog. But shouldn't those risks be the price you pay for quick progression? If you want that 33 million SP battleship pilot sooner rather than later, then you take all the baggage associated with it. Harden the f*** up and deal with your new reputation. EVE is a game of risk versus reward. EVE is a game where actions have consequences. Where's the risk here? Where's the consequence? EVE prides itself on not holding the player's hand, but that's exactly what this feature aims to do. This is like putting training wheels on a motorcycle. Quote:By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. We already have full control over how our SP is allocated. The onus is on the player to do their research and determine how they should skill up. If they feel they make a mistake, such is EVE, such is life. Quote:Whether youre an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you dont use any more, a clever new player looking to invest your fortune into your character, a Corp leader trying to move everyone into a new doctrine or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly Armageddons than Stilettos, this feature has you covered. I'd honestly love to hear anyone argue that having too much SP is a bad thing.
@manicvelocity
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Vollhov
Senators of Eridan Red Alliance
313
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:42:33 -
[198] - Quote
The brains in a bottle. Okay -í-íP.
Thanks you -í-íP Falcon "that helped to quit EVE"
Grand Empress Jamyl Sarum YC110
CCP can never come up with such a character as Jamyl Sarum.
"All these wayward children."
|
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
190
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:42:36 -
[199] - Quote
Another reason to quit this game.
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Xandrah Enaka
Talonclaw Foundation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:42:37 -
[200] - Quote
No CCP! Please no D: |
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Alladir
Alladarium
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:42:46 -
[201] - Quote
Personally i'm okay with it. Heck it may bring lots of my friends in. Tho i think 1 shot clones giving you additional free sp that is lost once you die was a better idea. Do what you think is right CCP this is your game after all. |
Alt Pilot1
Hysera Innovations
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:42:52 -
[202] - Quote
Incurso wrote:I don't get all the hate EVE already has a pay to win option. Anyone with to much real life money and not enough brains or patience can drop several hundred dollars on a bought toon then a pile of PLEX. You may or may not figure out how to play well but you can go from zero to high skill and high end ships with out ever undocking once and in a few hours.
I assume it doesn't happen much because you have to pay ALOT to win.
IDEA: If this happens can we get some sort of slop bucket to train points we intend to sell? I have no interest in capital ships and I'm nearly max SP on the things I want. I would trade SP for ISK. I just don't want to give up the stuff I have now.
I think because Eve has too much E-Peen.
A lot of older players want to be forever above the younger players, and don't want them to catch up that quickly.
This new SP transfer system can be really good for Eve Online in the long run. It'll make it more noob friendly. |
Aethelrian Kasenumi
Adeptus.Custodes
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:43:33 -
[203] - Quote
As a newer player who wasted a lot of SP early on, even I will give a resounding "no" to this.
I love that you guys are thinking outside the box to get newbros into the game, but improving the character bazaar does not require this. GIve us the option to change the aethestics of a purchased character and make it our own. Perhaps you could limit injection of these SP to new(er) characters and put a hard cap on the amount of SP one could transfer, if you really wanted to make it work.
That being said, if this change did happen, I would use the service (as I'm sure many here would), but I wouldn't like it. It just feels too cheap for Eve. |
Margin Matters
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:43:43 -
[204] - Quote
Wow I joined this game just in time! Soon I will be able to buy enough skill points to train a few 6 month old chars to the max in ships, industry and trade. I will be able to control whole systems by myself and will make enough in the game to play for free! Of course I won't see but a few people in a system and Jita will have 200 max at a a time, but I'll be fully skilled at the end!
I always seem to start playing a game when it's on the way out, sigh. |
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Alekhine's Gun Decayed Orbit
285
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:43:52 -
[205] - Quote
So I could run ten additional accounts to double Tikktokk's skillpoint gain? No matter how expensive/unrealistic that is, it's pay to win which is very bad! |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1150
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:43:53 -
[206] - Quote
This is a big change which is why you're seeing a lot of knee-jerk posting. Many of these people would probably be posting similar things if you announced the character bazar would now exist.
People who think this is pay-to-win basically don't understand that pay isk for chars already exists. I think that this removes a lot of the friction which you could argue worsens the system - the character bazar has enough flaws that it doesn't really work well, which means that if it was doing damage it wouldn't do much. But it doesn't really do damage: there are idiots who spend real money to get characters but then they quickly realize SP doesn't get you all that much power. There's no real gain in listening to people just ranting about it without an argument - pay to win isn't an argument as this is shifting around SP, not creating it - and there will be a lot of traditionalist ranting. But it's a good idea, though it requires some thinking around the economy aspects to ensure you don't devalue SP.
I would put less efficiency into the process earlier because there is a lot of 'wasted' SP that goes into characters that were long ago good enough (all my main characters on accounts are 100m+ SP because why not) and you'll see a deluge of SP from old characters that don't really need the SP. That could seriously impact the SP economy by flooding the market initially. Of course there are also rich old characters - like me - with tons of isk who will just plug in packs at 10% efficiency because what the hell else will i do with the planets i have converted into storehouses for my immense stacks of isk.
There's also going to be an initial flood from people yanking out buttscratching V and other useless skills, as well as buying up horrible pubbies to put through the skillgoop extractor so you may want to create a system to slow that initial flood (limit the number of extractors that are sold, initially, for example) so that the SP leaks out into the market instead of crashes out. |
Kelby
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:44:22 -
[207] - Quote
This is an insanely bad idea. |
Jessica Danikov
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
450
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:44:36 -
[208] - Quote
Real missed opportunity here: in-keeping with full character transfers, why not have a Brain Overlay eXtractor, or BOX, which, when applied to a character, removes ALL their skills and gives you a Brain in a BOX, which can then be traded and ultimately applied to a character to replace their skills entirely with the ones in the BOX.
Voila, character transfers, EVE style, without the pesky name problem. |
Leppales Beddelver
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:44:52 -
[209] - Quote
You're joking right? This is a terrible idea. |
Titus Tallang
EVE University Ivy League
92
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:45:15 -
[210] - Quote
This makes new players feel like they are forced into (or at least strongly incentivized to) purchase SP, likely for PLEXed ISK considering their average in-game income, in order to become competitive.
I feel like this would be a terrible thing for new player retention. Nothing kills the "grim-dark cutthroat universe" hook quite as quickly as "give us money and be so much stronger right away". Regardless of whether this would hold true objectively, which you could argue - subjective impression is what matters, and it would be bad.
Director of Education - EVE University - http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/
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Miss Reyana Aideron
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:45:57 -
[211] - Quote
Really bad bad idea. Please don't do this! |
Esnaelc Sin'led
AdAstra. Beach Club
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:46:14 -
[212] - Quote
What if the extraction system was giving SP allocated ONLY in the same category of skill ?
Let's say you have all gunnerie for Lasorz, but you only fly matars (just example, it might sound stupid). You chose to extract all thjose Lazors skills. But once you chose to sell them to another player, he will only be able to allocate those SP in "Gunnery", not Armor, nore Shield, neither Missiles. |
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH Circle-Of-Two
118
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:46:15 -
[213] - Quote
I have 5 accounts active , haven't touched the game for nearly a year ...but i just had to log in after reading this. You must be fukken kidding me ....right ? NO! |
Orions Lord
NeoCom Systems
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:46:17 -
[214] - Quote
All above |
strumpel
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:46:52 -
[215] - Quote
no, thank you |
Raphendyr Nardieu
Unpublished Chapter Chapters.
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:46:58 -
[216] - Quote
I don't know if this is good or not (I want more iteration around the idea before deciding)..
Could the "unallocated" be more restricted? For example limit unallocated SP to specific groups or skills (groups could work a bit better). So if I extract 500k from Engineering it would create Engineering skillpack and so on.
This would make it impossible to transferring science skills to combat. It also would mean that choices still matter as if you trained useless skills, those would cost less in the market.
Also I would go with function that calculates how much SP is thrown away at different SP amounts.. So you would get always a bit less SP when your SP amount is 30M than 25M. |
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1265
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:47:12 -
[217] - Quote
I have removed an ASCII art post.
Quote:13. Spamming is prohibited.
Spam is defined as the repetitive posting of the same topic or nonsensical post that has no substance and is often designed to annoy other forum users. This can include the words GÇ£firstGÇ¥, GÇ£go back to (insert other game name)GÇ¥ and other such posts that contribute no value to forum discussion. Spamming also includes the posting of ASCII art within a forum post, or the practice of GÇ£thread necromancyGÇ¥ which involved bumping of old threads for no justifiable reason.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
521
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:47:29 -
[218] - Quote
Been discussing with peeps.
ONLY way this seems to be possible sans massive abuse, based on the discussions I've seen is to set a fixed limit on number of SP transactions OR SP values, either SP going in or coming out, per set time frame, similar to remaps.
Not saying I'm a huge fan of the idea... but I can understand some of the thought behind it. I would further draw a hard limit on 100mil/120mil SP+ being unable to gain SP from this.
The Law is a point of View
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Broggo Yimmix
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:47:53 -
[219] - Quote
Bad idea CCP.
This looks alot like a pay to win scenario. Also it means people can do whatever with their characters and it doesn't change their value. High sec gank till you're as low as you can go then part out the toon > rinse and repeat; Awox to your hearts content then part out the toon and use the funds to start all over. It removes the lasting effects of a players actions and makes truly disposable toons of Value.
I don't mind the consmetic part of the store, but this is an apocalyptically bad decision. It makes monocle gate look positive in comparison. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12658
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:48:26 -
[220] - Quote
From the company that brought you Sov Wanding, now, pay to win skill system.
Stay tuned next week for the introduction of unicorns...pay to win unicorns! |
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Marsha Mallow
2621
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:48:39 -
[221] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:and last but not least having SP and winning are two different things. Indeed
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12658
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:50:00 -
[222] - Quote
Alt Pilot1 wrote:Incurso wrote:I don't get all the hate EVE already has a pay to win option. Anyone with to much real life money and not enough brains or patience can drop several hundred dollars on a bought toon then a pile of PLEX. You may or may not figure out how to play well but you can go from zero to high skill and high end ships with out ever undocking once and in a few hours.
I assume it doesn't happen much because you have to pay ALOT to win.
IDEA: If this happens can we get some sort of slop bucket to train points we intend to sell? I have no interest in capital ships and I'm nearly max SP on the things I want. I would trade SP for ISK. I just don't want to give up the stuff I have now.
I think because Eve has too much E-Peen. A lot of older players want to be forever above the younger players, and don't want them to catch up that quickly. This new SP transfer system can be really good for Eve Online in the long run. It'll make it more noob friendly.
Famous last words.
|
Robert Warner
Back Door Burglars The Otherworld
127
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:50:14 -
[223] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img] The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside.
While many of my compatriots will likely shun any notion of trading skill points, I must say the idea doesn't bother me (and yes I'm a player who has multiple characters over or approaching 200M SP). I don't mind certain ingrained mechanics being changed provided there is a rational reason behind it and that the solution is well conceived and well implemented (take note Fozzie sov).
My main concern is in pricing of the packet itself in Aurum: we are already developing a serious issue with the price of PLEX and without being a doomsayer, the game has lost 25% of its active player base since February of this year (source: Eve-offline.net) - an extraordinary statistic by any reckoning. My primary interest is seeing a recovery in player activity, for the good of both myself and the Developer.
While I'm sure CCP's accountants are eyeing this as a financial opportunity, I would very strongly suggest extreme caution in the introduction of further micro-transactions based on the PLEX/Aurum model at this time. Eve is currently in a very delicate position, following a number of somewhat dubious design changes, now requiring substantial time and investment to repair. If the game world loses critical mass of players, it may 'fail cascade' very quickly.
If such a feature really must be introduced within the next year, careful planning of pricing will be required to ensure no further stress is placed on the transferable game time market.
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Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen Grumpy Space Bastards
242
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:50:29 -
[224] - Quote
Winter Archipelago wrote:...
Here's a quick scenario: My industry alts, already fully trained, are no longer training. I start training them again. They never leave their station, so a pair of +5's along with Min / Max'ed attributes on a large skill or three means I can pump out 2700 SP per hour in perfect safety. In 8 days, I've already pumped out over 500k SP (518,400). Drain the SP, sell for a profit, repeat.
There's no risk involved. I'm not losing any SP because the characters aren't training any more. They have the necessary skills at the necessary levels and never undock. There's zero risk and I'm not making a single sacrifice. ...
This is the first argument against that resonates for me. You can, with zero risk, have a never-ending stream of 5M SP cyno alts, potentially on a daily basis. Tracking of neutrals relative to who they're scouting for wouldn't be possible.
Additionally, the cost of this "perfect" +5 safe training is lower than offspec training, even beyond 5M SP. (Training speed is affected by more than 20% relative to optimal for an off-spec train).
Maybe, as part of a character transfer, 20% of the transferred character's SP are destroyed, and instead turned into 15% unallocated skillpoints, to let the buyer add some of their own "flavor" to the character?
I also really like the name change idea, but to show former aliases and have the old names be searchable in the same way. A link to the old name should land you on the character's new name, through any chain of renames. |
Alex Villiana
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:50:41 -
[225] - Quote
I think this is a terrible idea that comes dangerously close to Pay2Win (or even just the perception thereof).
The current system with the character bazaar may be acceptable exactly because of its poor discoverability and lack of ease of use. Noobs can be noobs without feeling that they need to buy 50 plex to buy a decent character.
Noobs are already often advised not set farming ISK to PLEX their account as a goal for their first month(s) and to rather enjoy the game as a game (not a second job). Under the propsed system, noobs may be made to feel that they need to farm ISK for both PLEX and SP, which will make for a terrible gameplay experience. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
796
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:50:48 -
[226] - Quote
I said this before and I will say it again. This is as close as it gets to pay to win. FotM and all bad things just enhance this into a super bad idea.
I will survive if this goes through but the backlash of players will be baaaaaaaad.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Kilian Katar
Tenth Company
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:51:31 -
[227] - Quote
Tzu Wu wrote:Ihfrit wrote:as a player returning from my extended break i do every few years .. you just made me want to perma quit. this is an awful idea making this game pay to win. Character Bazaar is already p2w, what the difference here guys? Do tell.
The character bazaar requires you to know something about the game to know what you are looking for, and ultimately as the blog points out means any character you buy can come with a less than favourable background. On top of this it is often used by older eve players buying or selling new boosters, carrier pilots miners etc as opposed to what is primarily a new character or relatively new character proposal by CCP Rise. |
Trixi Laminer
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:51:39 -
[228] - Quote
I don't know if i care that much about the SP This wont affect the game that much that I can see, but maybe im too blind too see it. |
Stalking Mantis
No.Mercy Triumvirate.
875
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:51:40 -
[229] - Quote
You learned nothing from the Jita riots.
You learned nothing from the reasons your servers that used to have 70 to 90 thousand people on them two years ago now have 15 to 20 thousand people on them.
GG CCP.
Amarr Liason Officer Extraordinare
-->Check Out Amarrian Vengeance/Amarr FW History from 2011 to 2014
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=352629&find=unread
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2008
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:51:53 -
[230] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Alt Pilot1 wrote:Incurso wrote:I don't get all the hate EVE already has a pay to win option. Anyone with to much real life money and not enough brains or patience can drop several hundred dollars on a bought toon then a pile of PLEX. You may or may not figure out how to play well but you can go from zero to high skill and high end ships with out ever undocking once and in a few hours.
I assume it doesn't happen much because you have to pay ALOT to win.
IDEA: If this happens can we get some sort of slop bucket to train points we intend to sell? I have no interest in capital ships and I'm nearly max SP on the things I want. I would trade SP for ISK. I just don't want to give up the stuff I have now.
I think because Eve has too much E-Peen. A lot of older players want to be forever above the younger players, and don't want them to catch up that quickly. This new SP transfer system can be really good for Eve Online in the long run. It'll make it more noob friendly. Famous last words. Yeah, how dare the game be more accessible!
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Atezaria
Hole'n'Roll
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:51:58 -
[231] - Quote
I will have to say please do not do this CCP:
I understand the need for your firm to create revenue, but this is not the way to go I feel..
I kind of smell a huge potenial for CC scams which in turns will hit CCP's invoice system. and probably new ways to exploit the game for RM-traders, which we do not want..
So please CCP. Look into another way of creating revenue and to attract new ppl to the game :)
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Lena Lazair
Sefrim
550
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:52:46 -
[232] - Quote
Esnaelc Sin'led wrote:What if the extraction system was giving SP allocated ONLY in the same category of skill ?
Let's say you have all gunnerie for Lasorz, but you only fly matars (just example, it might sound stupid). You chose to extract all thjose Lazors skills. But once you chose to sell them to another player, he will only be able to allocate those SP in "Gunnery", not Armor, nore Shield, neither Missiles.
Ooo, I like this too. Split up TSP's by major skill categories, categorized separately on the market. It works to maintain the general commoditization of SP and simplification of bazaar/transfer, but ensures that people aren't just converting old mining/PI alts into supercap pilots and maintains at least some degree of the skill speculation/specialization elements of good bazaar trades. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
162
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:53:35 -
[233] - Quote
CCP has come out with some pretty terrible ideas in their history but this one has got to be the worst.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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grevicious
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:53:51 -
[234] - Quote
Daria3war wrote:Love this idea . CCP thinking about the future of the game. L33T bitter vet get rekt. We need fresh players and new ideas. The old way of doing things is killing the game. +1 Let the tears flow
some people just dont want the game to go backwards is all. adding new players is good, be nicer if they had to put the same time in i did to achieve the skills i have, you are a new toon and there obviously all for PAY TO WIN , get rekt.
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Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
291
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:54:05 -
[235] - Quote
Batten Down the hatches, Theres a 'hitstorm coming right this way . . . .
Personally P2W is bad, HOWEVER . . . if this was implimented in the same way as remaps ( ie you can remove skills once per year, and implant them, say twice) then it might be a better solution if you are really that keen to roll the dice.
@glasgowdunlop #tweetfleet
TDSIN Director : Join 'TDSIN pub' for more info, Join today!
Glasgow / Newcastle EVE Meets Organiser
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Gigiarc
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:54:13 -
[236] - Quote
This idea is actually extremely good. Excellent work on CCP's part. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2008
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:54:27 -
[237] - Quote
Robert Warner wrote:CCP Logibro wrote:[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img] The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside. While many of my compatriots will likely shun any notion of trading skill points, I must say the idea doesn't bother me (and yes I'm a player who has multiple characters over or approaching 200M SP). I don't mind certain ingrained mechanics being changed provided there is a rational reason behind it and that the solution is well conceived and well implemented (take note Fozzie sov). My main concern is in pricing of the packet itself in Aurum: we are already developing a serious issue with the price of PLEX and without being a doomsayer, the game has lost 25% of its active player base since February of this year (source: Eve-offline.net) - an extraordinary statistic by any reckoning. My primary interest is seeing a recovery in player activity, for the good of both myself and the Developer. While I'm sure CCP's accountants are eyeing this as a financial opportunity, I would very strongly suggest extreme caution in the introduction of further micro-transactions based on the PLEX/Aurum model at this time. Eve is currently in a very delicate position, following a number of somewhat dubious design changes, now requiring substantial time and investment to repair. If the game world loses critical mass of players, it may 'fail cascade' very quickly. If such a feature really must be introduced within the next year, careful planning of pricing will be required to ensure no further stress is placed on the transferable game time market. This is a fair point, but it's sort of looking at it the wrong way.
Right now, to affect a transfer of SP to a person, one has to pay 2 PLEX just to do the transfer. This is in addition to whatever deal the two parties struck.
Adding an aurum cost to skill extractors merely maintains this "tax;" it doesn't add a new source of pressure to PLEX. You can expect quite a bit of the pressure to PLEX applied by the Character Bazaar to be relieved as folks move to this more granular, personalizable system.
Of course, the transfer won't be perfect; it could indeed increase total PLEX pressure, or maybe even reduce it overall. It remains to be seen.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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O'b Haru Sen
EVE University Ivy League
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:54:40 -
[238] - Quote
Terrible idea. Here are two reason why:
1. For new players this will imply they need to buy SP to be more competitive, and since they don't have ISK, that means buying PLEX or Aurum. Now this generates income for CCP, but I would also expect it to raise the threshold to really play EVE significantly. Monthly subscription fee will not be enough, you will need to spend more money to buy into EVE. So will this really generate more income via SP transfers or scare off new players enough for subscription numbers to fall? The SP gap is probably one of the most significant reasons not to start playing EVE already, I fear this will make it worse.
2. I payed CCP a significant amount of money for making competent specialised alts (hauler, scanner etc). SP transfers significantly devalue those in an instant and make me regret my decision to do so, thus I feel cheated as a customer. I'm not whining, but you sure heard about the importance of customer SAT?
Although I am personally only affected by the 2nd, the 1st point troubles me most. It seems like selling out on EVE's future for short term gain.
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TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
329
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:55:03 -
[239] - Quote
Buying skill points is something I have to think about, I think its good for bringing up characters.
Just make a limit in the consumption, so say 1 package a year or something, or make it so that you can buy upgrade slots with PLEX and the higher the SP of the char, the more PLEX to invest to up the char with slots for skillupgrades.
Just a question, will char transfers still be possible? I have moved alt spots between multiple accounts every year, its a great way to get your scan alt to a primary slot on a new account (example). Is that still possible?
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
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Tzu Wu
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
45
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:55:16 -
[240] - Quote
Broggo Yimmix wrote:Bad idea CCP.
This looks alot like a pay to win scenario. Also it means people can do whatever with their characters and it doesn't change their value. High sec gank till you're as low as you can go then part out the toon > rinse and repeat; Awox to your hearts content then part out the toon and use the funds to start all over. It removes the lasting effects of a players actions and makes truly disposable toons of Value.
I don't mind the consmetic part of the store, but this is an apocalyptically bad decision. It makes monocle gate look positive in comparison.
You can already exchange tags for sec status. All of the stuff you mentioned is already doable via the character bazaar. This,trading of SP, has nothing to do with selling off a character with bad a bad reputation. |
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Gedalva
23
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:56:00 -
[241] - Quote
Not entirely sure how I feel about this...
On one hand - yes it would be fantastic to re-allocate skill points into something more useful. As others have stated if the blog post stated you pay "x amount" of aurum/plex to unlearn skill points (which by the way should still take time - on a seperate "unlearning skill queue") and then apply those points on the SAME character I don't think you'd be getting quite as much negative knee-jerk reaction.
On the other hand - I absolutely disagree with giving new players the ability to "catch-up" so easily. Granted this already happens in the current form of the character bazaar, but not to this extent. My personal feeling is that the current bazaar is used more by players who need alts to fill some role their main does not currently.
While I'll wait to pass judgement entirely until more details/discussions come of this. Initially it does have that "monocle" money grab type feeling. |
Alt Pilot1
Hysera Innovations
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:56:04 -
[242] - Quote
GUYS! Eve Online was already pay-to-win YEARS AGO, when they gave players the ability to sell GTC's for ISK. - The game has already been this way for YEARS. Stop using this as an excuse.
Now let your E-Peen go, and give the newer players some chance to catch up.
This new SP transfer system is brilliant, because it is simply a TRANSFER OF SKILL POINTS from the players who have it, to the players who don't.
This service DOES NOT create any SP out of thin air, so stop using that excuse.
This system can be really good for Eve in the long run, so let your E-Peen go. It is OK if a relatively new player can fly Dreadnaught V just like you. There has to be an older player willing to transfer the SP to the younger player. |
Drilla
Lockstock. Dead Terrorists
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:56:41 -
[243] - Quote
The only way this could remotely be a good idea was if you could only transfer SP internally in your account and a character that has received SP can never be transferred off the account.
That will allow people to create specialized alts instead of having all SP on one char/queue. |
Ghost Knighticus
Capts Deranged Cavaliers Gentlemen's.Club
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:56:45 -
[244] - Quote
And so i seems to start the demise of eve and the start of a cash cow just like all the other mmo's
PAY2Win
I dont think so
Eve is a journey not a quick buck to win.
I can already see some newbie going and spending 100 plexes on getting a 4 month toon to fly a titan
It aint happening
I am against the idea
|
Margin Matters
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:57:08 -
[245] - Quote
Another unintended consequence, while this is supposed to help stop ebay sales, etc. I could see where there could be a breif market generated for long dead accounts for skill point liquidation. |
Drilla
Lockstock. Dead Terrorists
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:57:49 -
[246] - Quote
Querns wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Alt Pilot1 wrote:Incurso wrote:I don't get all the hate EVE already has a pay to win option. Anyone with to much real life money and not enough brains or patience can drop several hundred dollars on a bought toon then a pile of PLEX. You may or may not figure out how to play well but you can go from zero to high skill and high end ships with out ever undocking once and in a few hours.
I assume it doesn't happen much because you have to pay ALOT to win.
IDEA: If this happens can we get some sort of slop bucket to train points we intend to sell? I have no interest in capital ships and I'm nearly max SP on the things I want. I would trade SP for ISK. I just don't want to give up the stuff I have now.
I think because Eve has too much E-Peen. A lot of older players want to be forever above the younger players, and don't want them to catch up that quickly. This new SP transfer system can be really good for Eve Online in the long run. It'll make it more noob friendly. Famous last words. Yeah, how dare the game be more accessible!
Because every time it's made more accessible it has increased the userbase right? That's why there are more online now than 5 years ago right? |
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2022
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:57:54 -
[247] - Quote
Alt Pilot1 wrote:Aryth wrote:Great change. Best in years. However, could we get some more sample numbers like the possible Aurum costs? I agree this is brilliant. It doesn't take anything away from the older players. And it turns Skill Points into a commodity that can be freely traded in the Market Window. I am not sure why some people are against this, and say it's "using Aurum to buy SP".... You are clearly NOT using Aurum to buy SP, because the character has to have existing SP to be extracted..... The Aurum is basically a payment for the extraction service. This is just a transfer of skill points, from one character to another. The only reason why I think some people are opposed to this, is because they don't want to be instantly challenged by younger players who are willing to buy the skill packets. They probably want all the younger players to go through the same ordeal they did when they started paying, like waiting for months for skills to train. So, someone used AUR to extract the SP that they then put on the market. It is not bought with AUR, but made available with AUR. I do not see a significant difference.
Furthermore, your point makes me wonder, how again are new players supposed to afford these SP? I mean, buying such a packet is not going to be cheap. So, how are they supposed to afford them? Buy Plex so that CCP earns money from the extractors sub and aur purchase, from the buyers sub and plex purchase. 4x money for CCP for not nearly as much service as the char bazaar offers? And in addition no actual improvement to the actual NPE, that Rise is supposed to work on and now this project diverts dev time from that very important task. And this does not concern you?
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12658
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:58:07 -
[248] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:I said this before and I will say it again. This is as close as it gets to pay to win. FotM and all bad things just enhance this into a super bad idea.
I will survive if this goes through but the backlash of players will be baaaaaaaad.
I will too, but I think it's a bad way to go abut business.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3498
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:58:39 -
[249] - Quote
Moraguth wrote:Bitter vet reporting in.
TL;DR: I'm not quitting and you can't have my stuff, but you're taking more and more uniqueness away from the game that I've loved since the very first trailer showing actual game footage that got me to apply for the beta and get in.
The whine fest:
Right now I have just shy of 229M SP. That is a simple number that says quite a few things. Assuming I've had this character the whole time (and I have), you know roughly how long I've played the game, what I've seen, what I've been through, etc. This can be verified with the API. I earned every single one of those SP. I'm also proud to say I've missed out on less than 48 hours of training my entire time playing the game.
Uhhmmm no. Those 229 million SP tell us you have had an account for a long time. It does not tell us what you have done in the game. And I can tell how long you have had account by clicking on your name in game or your profile here on the forums...Hell, I can even look you up on Eve Who and get that information.
So that information will not be lost...because it is available elsewhere or was never there to begin with.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Mai Ling Ravencroft
Duragon Pioneer Group Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:58:43 -
[250] - Quote
Daria3war wrote:Crazy idea but why not fix the current game and give people a reason to want to play. It is not new players that will save our game.
We need headline fights , SOV block warfare ..........
Not another 10k new players to farm
We do need new players, but the real issues are retention, for both new and old alike. Eve is a rough game, and 90% of new players never even make it out of the starting gates. So with maybe a 10% retention of new players, you have to do something to keep the older players also, cause if we are loosing more vets than the 10% of incoming players, then the game is shrinking overall. Which is obviously the case, cause I see it everyday I log in. Even on the weekends during both EU and US prime, the numbers are a lot lower than just a year ago, much less 3 years ago when I started.
So CCP either needs to find a way to bring in new blood faster than it's loosing it, or find a way to keep more of it's vets. As we have seen, they keep adding more to the new player experience, but yet the nubers keep falling, so maybe a bit more focus on vets might help retain more of us.
What really sucks it the fact that they haven't been listening to this, and while we beg fore more content, they would rather try to push artificial changes at us which end up reducing content. Where as they could spend less time on horrid ideas like this one, and instead add capital level missions, escalations and such. Add in content that revolves around Sov, so that indexes are based on more than exceedingly boring anoms. Give us "alliance" missions in our outposts and have multi-site/multi-system escalations, that pay out on par or better, but require more investment to do.
There are hundreds of idea that have been placed at CCPs feet that could easily boost the games longevity and enjoyment factor, but they would rather toss out fast changes that require minimal effort and produce more quick cash. Which is a shame, because there are a lot of things that would take a bit more design and programming time, but would drastically make the game much more playable and give it a much deeper level of play-ability. |
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Mysho Agalder
Rotary Chainsaw Launcher
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:58:58 -
[251] - Quote
I have been waiting to see something like this for so long Forget about paid to win, this is perfect way of actively training skills instead of just waiting half a year for skill queue to finish.
Seriously, right now the only thing I hate about Eve is that training skills means just waiting, and the only way to avoid waiting is buying a new char... Now this feature will give us a way to actively speed our training up by making ISK and buying skillpoints - which is IMHO the best way to train skills actively, because now we can just do anything that makes ISK in order to speed the skill training up. |
Bogo Shardani
CBC Interstellar Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:59:01 -
[252] - Quote
Alex Villiana wrote:I think this is a terrible idea that comes dangerously close to Pay2Win (or even just the perception thereof). and more...
i think most whiners dont undestand that its just alternative for Pay2Win character bazar just instead paying for new avatar you pay for new skills on your old avatar but with SP sink |
Vollhov
Senators of Eridan Red Alliance
313
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 16:59:32 -
[253] - Quote
Fresh brains, by the gross !!!! http://strashnoe.tv/ckfinder/userfiles/files/monkey-brains.jpg
Thanks you -í-íP Falcon "that helped to quit EVE"
Grand Empress Jamyl Sarum YC110
CCP can never come up with such a character as Jamyl Sarum.
"All these wayward children."
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Akrasjel Lanate
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
1834
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:00:07 -
[254] - Quote
Oh well Low SP char farms a thing ?
PS. If you rage quiting, can i have your stuff.
Akrasjel Lanate
Member of Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
Citizen of Solitude
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12658
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:00:20 -
[255] - Quote
Querns wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Famous last words.
Yeah, how dare the game be more accessible!
As someone else already said, CCP's move to make the game "more accessible" have been smashing successes so for.
Naivety is a bad thing for a business.
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TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
330
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:00:26 -
[256] - Quote
Alt Pilot1 wrote:This new SP transfer system is brilliant, because it is simply a TRANSFER OF SKILL POINTS from the players who have it, to the players who don't.
Thats a nice summery, in that respect, I think its a good idea, the total POOL of SKILLPOINTS in EVE stays the same, and I like the idea.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
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Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH Circle-Of-Two
118
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:00:38 -
[257] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:This is a big change which is why you're seeing a lot of knee-jerk posting. Many of these people would probably be posting similar things if you announced the character bazar would now exist.
People who think this is pay-to-win basically don't understand that pay isk for chars already exists. I think that this removes a lot of the friction which you could argue worsens the system - the character bazar has enough flaws that it doesn't really work well, which means that if it was doing damage it wouldn't do much. But it doesn't really do damage: there are idiots who spend real money to get characters but then they quickly realize SP doesn't get you all that much power. There's no real gain in listening to people just ranting about it without an argument - pay to win isn't an argument as this is shifting around SP, not creating it - and there will be a lot of traditionalist ranting. But it's a good idea, though it requires some thinking around the economy aspects to ensure you don't devalue SP.
I would put less efficiency into the process earlier because there is a lot of 'wasted' SP that goes into characters that were long ago good enough (all my main characters on accounts are 100m+ SP because why not) and you'll see a deluge of SP from old characters that don't really need the SP. That could seriously impact the SP economy by flooding the market initially. Of course there are also rich old characters - like me - with tons of isk who will just plug in packs at 10% efficiency because what the hell else will i do with the planets i have converted into storehouses for my immense stacks of isk.
There's also going to be an initial flood from people yanking out buttscratching V and other useless skills, as well as buying up horrible pubbies to put through the skillgoop extractor so you may want to create a system to slow that initial flood (limit the number of extractors that are sold, initially, for example) so that the SP leaks out into the market instead of crashes out.
I hear you but no matter what you do you WILL be devaluing skill-points in a big way. The reason this is not currently happening is because you have to buy a full package(character) ...and trust me there are a ton of characters no one would touch for various reasons., that is why its not currently hurting the game. But if you could start stripping skill points ....there would be a whole bus of sp floating around. Time commitment has always been part of the core of eve. Player dedication to the game is the soul of eve...with this your pissing over a lot of players and their commitment to the game... |
Lena Lazair
Sefrim
551
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:01:29 -
[258] - Quote
Winter Archipelago wrote:Here's a quick scenario: My industry alts, already fully trained, are no longer training. I start training them again. They never leave their station, so a pair of +5's along with Min / Max'ed attributes on a large skill or three means I can pump out 2700 SP per hour in perfect safety. In 8 days, I've already pumped out over 500k SP (518,400). Drain the SP, sell for a profit, repeat.
Sure, but you can already do this. Are people really wasting active accounts with NO characters training? Any account I have with characters not likely to continue training will always have one slot reserved for training a new character solely to be sold on the bazaar. You can already convert active account time into ISK via bazaar sales for accounts that you were going to have active anyway. The proposed system makes this somewhat easier to accomplish, but it doesn't necessarily introduce a new element. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2011
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:01:48 -
[259] - Quote
Drilla wrote:Querns wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Alt Pilot1 wrote:Incurso wrote:I don't get all the hate EVE already has a pay to win option. Anyone with to much real life money and not enough brains or patience can drop several hundred dollars on a bought toon then a pile of PLEX. You may or may not figure out how to play well but you can go from zero to high skill and high end ships with out ever undocking once and in a few hours.
I assume it doesn't happen much because you have to pay ALOT to win.
IDEA: If this happens can we get some sort of slop bucket to train points we intend to sell? I have no interest in capital ships and I'm nearly max SP on the things I want. I would trade SP for ISK. I just don't want to give up the stuff I have now.
I think because Eve has too much E-Peen. A lot of older players want to be forever above the younger players, and don't want them to catch up that quickly. This new SP transfer system can be really good for Eve Online in the long run. It'll make it more noob friendly. Famous last words. Yeah, how dare the game be more accessible! Because every time it's made more accessible it has increased the userbase right? That's why there are more online now than 5 years ago right? Correlation is not causation.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Alladir
Alladarium
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:02:00 -
[260] - Quote
Ppl chill out, we don't even know all of the details and, as ppl've already stated, it doesn't create sp out of air, someone has to lose it first. I bet ppl would whine the same if a char bazaar would have been announced this way, but it is working just fine. The game can't stay the same forever. |
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Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation MinTek Conglomerate
78
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:02:02 -
[261] - Quote
Strongly disapprove. I think reasons are obvious. Didn't read any of the topic, though. |
Masao Kurata
Perkone Caldari State
284
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:02:03 -
[262] - Quote
Well, this is equivalent to paying real money for SP, as you pay real money to train then more real money to extract those skills. Okay, I'm not too bothered by that in itself, but you might as well be up front about it, you're not fooling anyone. This is going to give you a lot of bad publicity, you'll probably set the aurum price too high so it'll barely get used and it doesn't fix the SP wall faced by new players, it just makes it look like a paywall instead. If I were in your position, I'd be concerned about the effect this will have on retention.
Where is the actual skill training reform? Remaps, learning implants, steep requirements to merely sit in or fit ships and modules. These are places where design by delete key (and LP refunds for learning implants) is actually appropriate unlike the emergent gameplay you've been applying the delete key to recently. |
crazydaisy
Gargling Cucumbers
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:02:44 -
[263] - Quote
I think this whole idea is great. Count me (and some of my alts) in. +1 |
Squelch
Unsettled Unsettled.
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:02:54 -
[264] - Quote
As it stands right now, we're paying real money (our subscription fee) for a standard rate of Skill Point gain for 1 month. Baring implants (which are limited), there is nothing we can do to increase our Skill Point gain and I believe thats how things should stay.
It's one of the things that sets Eve apart from the other games out there, and for the last 10 years it's worked!
It's already much easier for new players to gain skill points now than it was a few years ago, and if you look even further back (anyone remember the 'learning' skills?) the new players have it really good right now, and that's a good thing. I like that new players are better enabled to get stuck into Eve, but enabling them to buy SP is too much.
By all means, bring the Character Bazarr into the game to make it more visible. If you want to mess around with SP, maybe part of the new 'ingame' Character Bazaar would be a feature where you buy the character, and for an additional cost, you are able to completely redistribute all of that characters skill points to better suit your needs, but they must stay belonging to the same character.
I'd even still be happy if you allowed people to sell their unwanted Skill Points back to Concord at a set price, so people can clean up their character sheets, but those SP's are destroyed, not put up for a sale to another player.
Overall, I like the fact that you're looking at this, you've got an idea and you're asking for our opinion. We already buy our monthly supply of skill points when we pay for subscription. Allowing people to pay more for more SP is too close to pay2win. |
Lydia Maulerant
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:02:57 -
[265] - Quote
My biggest concern is that this is explicitly being called out as a potential solution to the new player skill progression issue.
If players cannot participate because they haven't spent the requisite time training all the fitting skills to V, asking them to pay their way out of that skill deficiency is not the right answer, and suggesting it smacks of greed and shortsightedness.
Combined with CCP's existing track record with Aurum being purchasable in amounts that are totally unrelated to the amounts things actually cost, ensuring that you can never use all your Aurum, I have strong reservations about the motivation for this proposal.
If this makes it into the game as is, with devs seeing it as part of the solution to new player training issues, I fear it will only help new players who are rich and do nothing for those who can't budget more than their subscription cost to this game. I think at no point should any process involving a real money transaction be part of the new player sp struggle, it is asking us to pay more money to fix an existing issue. |
Jon Hellguard
X-COM
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:03:12 -
[266] - Quote
Skillpoint extractor / Neural Packages kill proper character progression! Progression is very essential for a new pilot. He/She reads the skills, considers wether to spend time on it or not and starts to plan. Also, I'm very certain we all remember that very moment we first got into ship X and undocked. We trained for it HARD, we waited, we earned ISK to spend on fitting and so on. It was very well earned and gave a great sence of archievement. So do you really want new players to buy themselfs in, jump in a fancy ship, fly out and get podded home just to quit eve again?
If you as a player feel like you are ready to take on higher archievement and the skills are holding you up. That's when the Character bazzar might make sence. It balances for demand and supply and does not instantly change a characters attribute in some magic way. Remember the 3 Levels? Customer, Player, Character? What level do you want to 'fix' or improve really?
I don't want to tell new pilots pilots to just go buy some neural packages. It's the lamest, entousiasm-killing thing you can tell a new players.
Boost new players in better ways. Give them Skillpoints for archieving certain stuff like the opportunities! Give them boosts for game-interaction with other players. Provide them features that take them into the actual game rather than to a store.
CCP you have this great sandbox, try less to interfer with how people play the sand - give them more sand to play with!
Character Bazzar, for transfers - why not? Just the transfer system tho. Ensure players who want to sell or buy a character get that extra option to easely doing it without spending too much time on forums and 3rd party time. What I think could be usefull: > Official 'transfer' notifications on characters that everyone can see. So players know when Char XYZ has switched an owner. Of course not "what owner", but that it switched. > Filtering, sorting, auctions, ect.
Is this a financial attempt? I understand from looking at what financial numbers of CCP out there look like, you need new ways to get income. Now, there's many other systems that provide solid ways to generate income with microtransactions that do not influence the game mechanics or player experience in a bad way. Look out for them, or ask us for idea's > Skillpoints is one of the holy things you shouldn't touch that way.
Internal bets? If anyone at CCP said "this is a bad idea!", now it's the time to go to that person and receive the "I told you so!" right away. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2011
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:03:38 -
[267] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Querns wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Famous last words.
Yeah, how dare the game be more accessible! As someone else already said, CCP's move to make the game "more accessible" have been smashing successes so for. Naivety is a bad thing for a business. And as I've said, correlation is not causation.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Insidious
Hax. Shadow Cartel
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:03:52 -
[268] - Quote
plex prices will be 4billion soon : )))))) |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3498
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:04:00 -
[269] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:More feedback: corp thief character with a bad reputation? No problem!
Just extract all of his SP, immediately feed all of his SP right back into an all new corp thief character specced perfectly to a new target corp's doctrines, profit!
As soon as is practicable, conduct your theft, use that corp's ISK to buy a bunch of extractors, suck out the new character's SP, create a new corp thief character, repeat until you're bored stealing from every corp in EVE.
You can't even trust the "Well, we just won't recruit people who have 40 million SP on day one" idea because the character bazaar will become full of "Here, buy my eight-year-old 500k SP alt and use it for corp thievery!" characters.
Net result: the level of trust that corps are going to have in new recruits is actually going to go down, if you can believe that. Consequences? What are those?
This is a horrible idea. Please do not do this.
Really, how many characters with 2+ years of time and very few skills do you think there are?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Skorpion Medion
Fink Operations The Volition Cult
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:04:18 -
[270] - Quote
What if you could be able to only transfer SP on your own too and not selling it to anybody else? Example: i got alot of drone skills i dont use, i would be able to extract those sp and relocate them to gunnery?
This is not pay to win or anything, it's rellocating your "wasted" time. if we have to do the SP talk anyway, might do it proper,
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Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
428
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:05:52 -
[271] - Quote
I'm very much against the idea, and I've already posted my concerns (and how I plan on abusing this) earlier. I will, however, also offer my own opinions on balancing it, in case it's going to go through regardless.
The SP loss is too low, and it allows usage for people with too much SP. Reduce the SP gained from the packs by 20% (of the max) every 5 mil SP.
0 to 5 mil would receive the full 500k. 5 to 10 mil would receive 400k. 10 to 15 mil would receive 300k. 15 to 20 mil would receive 200k. 20 to 25 mil would receive 100k. Over 25 mil should not be able to inject them.
(I would actually have made it even more restrictive, dropping by 100k every 2 mil SP, and not gaining anything after 10 mil, but I figured that was going to be "too restrictive" considering the current tier consideration laid out in the dev blog.)
You can already create some very solid characters with 25 mil, and a lot of high-return alts can be made for 10 mil. People already use accounts to create and sell characters for the Bazaar. Instead of being sold and transferred, these chars will now only become SP mules, pumping out a new SP pack every 8 days.
I am still against the idea in its entirety.
Planning a trip to Thera? Check out http://eve-scout.com/ for a list of the current connections.
Once you've made your choice, join the EvE-Scout channel and request a scout to make sure your connection is clear!
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Mane Frehm
The Executioners Shadow Cartel
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:06:22 -
[272] - Quote
My initial reaction was very negative (full disclosure - this impacts me personally), but after thinking about it for a while I had the following thoughts:
1. The devblog talks about problems with the character bazaar and then somehow leaps to the conclusion that we need a method to transfer skillpoints from 1 character to another. The solution presented does not address the identified problem! If there are problems with the character bazaar, then identify and address those, (although in my opinion it is a classic information market where those with better information make profits from those with less).
2. Many others in this thread have already identified issues with characters suddenly being differently capable then expected, or the potential for abuse. These are valid concerns.
3. This does strike me as someones clever idea for extracting money from an older/declining player base. CCP has the right to run its game as it pleases, but I suggest to you this has the potential to greatly accelerate the current decline.
One of the earlier posters in this thread stated "I've told people that eve is about choices, community, and consequences." Very well said, Moraguth.
I would like to add to that by saying that characters are the reflection of those choices, communities and consequences. Each character has a history and a story, and once you allow skillpoints to move between characters you run the risk of destroying that. Where will the next Chribba come from if any character can instantly be capable of anything? What about the next great solo pilot, pirate queen or alliance leader? Characters are more than just their current owners, and you don't need to be a role player to see this.
In conclusion - I do think this is a bad idea; please don't do it. |
Tzu Wu
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
47
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:06:26 -
[273] - Quote
Shade Alidiana wrote:Strongly disapprove. I think reasons are obvious. Didn't read any of the topic, though.
Then you have probably no idea why you don't like this. The SP isn't created out of thin air, it's traded from a character that already has it. You should probably read it so you can formulate an actual meaningful opinion. |
IBFroggy Sukarala
Predator Ewoks Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:06:40 -
[274] - Quote
Pay to win? Great! I`m out! |
Banedon Runestar
Valor Evolved Order of Allied Knights
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:07:40 -
[275] - Quote
Absolutely not.
First, the economics are terrible. At the cost of 2 PLEX per 500,00 SP, you're not going to get any takers. That's 2B+ ISK and climbing everyday, the Character Bazaar isn't nearly so expensive.
Second, have you forgotten the threadnoughts and player reaction to Incarna? Then you explicitly promised that there would be no direct ISK for SP options and this is walking back on that promise.
Third, Eve is a game about choices, and those choices having consequences. Why put in shortcuts for undoing early choices? What's next, selling your NPC faction and NPC corp standings for ISK? Bribe CONCORD to raise your sec status to whatever you want? People make mistakes, that's how they learn. In Eve this usually leaves some kind of mark on your character sheet, whether its a skill learned, or standing altered. This should not be in any way removed, short-circuited, or avoided.
Finally, while it may marginally help newbie pilots, it can and will be abused. Rich players buying bazaar characters to strip their SPs. Or they create some of the new higher SP alts, burn some PLEX to train them up a month or two, then burn off the SP and add to the main.
This is Eve, and economic and temporal efficiency is useful. However, if the means (however inefficient) exist to push a limit, it will be pushed to it's extreme. Sure you don't need deadspace mods on a Pirate faction ship to run level 4's, they're exorbitantly expensive, but people do it all the time. ISK for SPs will be no different. |
ForceM
POS Builder Inc. Silent Requiem
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:07:49 -
[276] - Quote
I can be very articulate with what my oppinion about this is.
TBH i rather say it in 2 words as most other already elaborated on details.
HELL NO!!! |
Drilla
Lockstock. Dead Terrorists
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:08:13 -
[277] - Quote
Querns wrote:Drilla wrote:Querns wrote:
Yeah, how dare the game be more accessible!
Because every time it's made more accessible it has increased the userbase right? That's why there are more online now than 5 years ago right? Correlation is not causation.
If you understood EVE and had played it long enough, you (and CCP) would know the only thing that brings in new players and retains them in any significant numbers are vets. Penalizing vets are just plain stupid.
You can put all the makeup on the pig you want, it's still a pig - vets bring the sandbox to life and that is what retains the new players.
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2701
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:08:13 -
[278] - Quote
Querns wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Querns wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Famous last words.
Yeah, how dare the game be more accessible! As someone else already said, CCP's move to make the game "more accessible" have been smashing successes so for. Naivety is a bad thing for a business. And as I've said, correlation is not causation. Nor does correlation exclude causation.
And this idea is terrible. Not "$1000 jeans" or "~18 months~" terrible, but pretty high up there. |
BogWopit
Star Frontiers Brotherhood of Spacers
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:08:37 -
[279] - Quote
No.
It removes the journey you take as you craft your skills.
You set a sight on being able to fly X ship with X fittings, you plan your skills, you play with EFT or Pyfa and get the fit just so, then you wait. The feeling of satisfaction you get from having spent that time training is lost when you can simply buy the skills.
The argument of pay2win is a little invalid as others have pointed out. If you are IRL rich you can simply plex up and buy a toon from the bazaar, so I'll not rely on that as an argument. However what people can buy from the bazarr is the result of other peoples actions and decisions, not tailor made toons that will meet the requirements exactly.
What this system does is allow people to forgo the consequence of their decisions by allowing you take back that which they have done wrong in the past.
If you take this toon as an example, I have been meticulous in its skill tree, it has taken me over 8 years to get here, to allow a way of someone reaching the same state by having a decent credit card is downright infuriating.
I understand that business is business and money has to be made, but in this instance the trade off is devaluing existing players by attacking the only thing we have that is worth something in this game....time. The time we as players have spent in this world, the time we have invested in building our toons skills, the time we have put into skilling in all different directions would become something which can be bought and sold.
Aside from the above I feel that it would make eve a very bland place where alliances could just instruct you to have your skills in x y and z, where each balance pass that creates a new flavour of the month ship is nothing more than a money grabbing exercise and actually becomes something which is no longer unintentional.
For shame.
B
|
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
332
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:09:47 -
[280] - Quote
IBFroggy Sukarala wrote:Pay to win? Great! I`m out!
The skillpool of EVE is not getting bigger, it stays the same, how is this pay to win?
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3501
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:10:00 -
[281] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:OK, I've calmed down slightly. Let's give you guys some specific feedback so that you understand what a ******* terrible idea this is.
I have an alt I bought on the bazaar years ago. He has 82 million SP. Much of it is focused on mining and reprocessing, skills I haven't used in years. As long as I'm a whale...
Step 1: Pump a ton of Aurum into CCP to buy 84 Transneural Skill Extractors. Step 2: Use them to create 84 Transneural Skill Packets for a total of 42 million SP. Step 3: Consume 25 of them myself to bring myself to 50 million SP, dumping my useless SP and focusing this alt on incursion-running. Step 4: Sell 59 Transneural Skill Packets on the market, making it more or less unnecessary for me to actually run incursions for a while since 59 of these are going to be worth a ton of ISK.
And that doesn't even get into the matter of using those 84 Packets to more or less instantly jump a new character from 0 to 40 million SP. Character ages and birth dates will become completely meaningless.
Again, I can do these things as long as I'm a whale and pump a ton of money into CCP for the 84 Transneural Skill Extractors.
Am I missing anything here? Who in God's name thought this was a good idea? Can we sell them to Riot?
Okay, I'm wondering why the character bazaar has not drawn your ire long ago?
Selling that character would probably net you 16 billion ISK. Probably about the same as you'll be able to get for 59 skill packets. If you have a ton of ISK in game you can buy an incursion runner on the character bazaar. If you have a ton RL money you can buy PLEX, sell them for ISK and then...buy that incursion runner. Buy some extra PLEX and you'll have a ton of ISK too.
I'm not defending the idea here, but dude....you are starting to sound hysterical.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Sev3rance
183
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:10:17 -
[282] - Quote
I said in an earlier post that this was ridiculous and stupid.
I take that back after reading some of the other posts and thinking further. This could be very good for newer players and player retention.
What's ridiculous about it is that CCP is making this a pay-to-win service by making it available for plex. Limit the number of transfers to like two or three a year, so rich old bittervets and people who just want to buy plex to win can't abuse this, and it'd be fine. |
SFX Bladerunner
Black Serpent Technologies The-Culture
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:10:33 -
[283] - Quote
This is a bad idea.
I am happy with EVE being a game with little to no rules in terms of player conduct. I can accept the fact that some dude who's only been playing for a few months can make more money than me in a days work of scamming and getting lucky than I do in a years time. I can even accept the fact that people who've gotten super rich to the point of measuring their networth in trillions of isk can just buy toons with any amount of SP to them and do whatever with them.
This however, I cannot accept. While I know that EVE is a -skills- based game and your actual amount of SP isn't indicative of your ability to be successful in EVE, the simplicity that you propose in converting ISK to SP for your -already existing- character(s) is staggeringly game breaking.
I do not condone this feature and hereby would like to give my unconditional vote AGAINST the ability to extract/inject SP points. SP points should be passively earned over time, period.
The idea of an in-game character bazaar however, where you can put your toons up for sale and automatically link their relevant information like eveboard only ingame without mucking about on websites and with the ability to filter/select/sort from the characterbazaar ingame would be AMAZING.
I can imagine myself opening the characterbazaar, selecting a bunch of skills and levels that are mandatory and a few that are desired and then filtering the offerings on that sorted by price/SP.... Being able to just place a bid on them or directly purchase them by selecting the Buyout option (all optional things for the seller to set ofc.)...
Make THAT happen, and make us all happy. if you implement THAT properly, we will applaud you and commend you for it. If you make this SP for ISK thing, nobody is going to like you. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2012
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:10:48 -
[284] - Quote
Drilla wrote:Querns wrote:Drilla wrote:Querns wrote:
Yeah, how dare the game be more accessible!
Because every time it's made more accessible it has increased the userbase right? That's why there are more online now than 5 years ago right? Correlation is not causation. If you understood EVE and had played it long enough, you (and CCP) would know the only thing that brings in new players and retains them in any significant numbers are vets. Penalizing vets are just plain stupid. You can put all the makeup on the pig you want, it's still a pig - vets bring the sandbox to life and that is what retains the new players. How does the new system "penalize vets"?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Kilian Katar
Tenth Company
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:11:07 -
[285] - Quote
Gigiarc wrote:This idea is actually extremely good. Excellent work on CCP's part.
I cannot take you seriously, for three reasons:
1) that face 2) you are a goon 3) you agree with ccp... |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2012
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:11:58 -
[286] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Querns wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Famous last words.
Yeah, how dare the game be more accessible! As someone else already said, CCP's move to make the game "more accessible" have been smashing successes so for. Naivety is a bad thing for a business. And as I've said, correlation is not causation. Nor does correlation exclude causation. Sure, but the burden of proof is on the person who says "X happened, therefore the fact that Y also happened shows a direct relationship."
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Stable Cusp
Quintec Wormhole Exploration
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:11:59 -
[287] - Quote
Please, no. And please don't try to disguise this as a form of character trading.
Character trading offers engaging options for players. You can carefully craft a product, and reap the benefits of accurately reading the market. Carefully craft, including name, skills, standings, and reputation within the community. In its own way, developing a character for sale is not so different from any other industry.
Anonymizing skill points, so I can take all those Mining Barge or Research Project Management levels and turn them into the just-released, new ship skill completely eliminates that.
If you think the problem is skillpoints holding people back, then remove skills. I don't think that's the issue though. I can't tell you how many people I've seen post, excitedly, in chats "X hours until I can fly [ship]" Those people have spent days or weeks anticipating their new ability, like a kid anticipating Christmas. That bit of knowing something is out there, but just a little out of your reach, is an incredible motivator. If you let any new player just come in and buy enough skills to fly a carrier or a titan - that is not a player who's going to engage and stick around. |
Mynxee
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
212
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:12:07 -
[288] - Quote
It's almost like you're trying to turn skill training into some weird market mini game. Or wondering how you're going to avoid screams of despair due to some planned elimination of skills that people have spent considerable time training already. Or perhaps you're just trying to milk more cash from new players desperate to "catch up".
I am strongly opposed to any change that would let characters sell what amounts to "skillrights" to other characters for reasons stated by Chribba, Ripard Teg and others in earlier comments. An important and unique feature of EVE is the sense of investment. SP as a result of training choices are a huge part of that. Besides being unnecessarily complicated, the proposed system is likely to cheapen that sense investment and could backfire with regard to how much value people would attach to their characters under such a system. When people feel less invested and characters can just be mindlessly churned, they won't get attached to their characters and thus no real emotional investment in their in-game identity.
What is a potentially reasonable alternative to address skill training "mistakes" or never-gonna-use-em-again skillpoints would be a very limited capability for a character to draw a small % of existing skillpoints into a pool that could then be reallocated for other skills for THEMSELVES ONLY. At least that would still have some consequences attached to it for that character. Any such thing should always be discernible via API keys and should be expensive to perform and only allowed once in a blue moon.
There are also better ways to support new players in "catching up", one of which is just bite the damn bullet and start them with a million SPs, some allocated to basic support skills and some unallocated. I started playing when characters began with 900K allocated SP; while I recall certain frustrations in not being able to fly certain ships for awhile, I never felt particularly crippled and certainly was able to enjoy fleets with friends from pretty much the get-go. You could also do a LOT more to aid new players in making more informed early skill training choices by providing more explanatory info in skill descriptions about a skill's use, its general priority in the big picture, and complementary skills that make sense to train in a linear or alternating sequence.
tl;dr The dev blog's proposed idea is ripe for exploitation and cheapens that very important sense of investment in a character that helps new players feel committed to the game.
Lost in space, looking for sigs...
Blog: Outlaw Insouciant
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2012
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:12:56 -
[289] - Quote
Banedon Runestar wrote: First, the economics are terrible. At the cost of 2 PLEX per 500,00 SP, you're not going to get any takers. That's 2B+ ISK and climbing everyday, the Character Bazaar isn't nearly so expensive.
CCP has not yet set the price of the skill extractors. It will probably be quite a bit cheaper than 2 PLEX.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Seraphina Sazas
Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:13:26 -
[290] - Quote
Pay to win. Bad idea, don't do it. |
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Jon Hellguard
X-COM
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:14:32 -
[291] - Quote
Drilla wrote:The only way this could remotely be a good idea was if you could only transfer SP internally in your account and a character that has received SP can never be transferred off the account.
That will allow people to create specialized alts instead of having all SP on one char/queue.
Nope, with dual char skilltraining already in place you could possibly train 3 characters on one account and boost just one with the XP from the other. That is exactly how one would pay to get XP. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2012
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:14:50 -
[292] - Quote
Murkar Omaristos wrote:I said in an earlier post that this was ridiculous and stupid.
I take that back after reading some of the other posts and thinking further. This could be very good for newer players and player retention.
What's ridiculous about it is that CCP is making this a pay-to-win service by making it available for plex. Limit the number of transfers to like two or three a year, so rich old bittervets and people who just want to buy plex to win can't abuse this, and it'd be fine. Unfortunately, this is not possible.
Right now, affecting a character transfer causes 2 PLEX to be removed from CCP's Liabilities sheet and resolved. Introduction of skill extractors without at least attempting to mirror this realization of liabilities is bad for business. There's absolutely no chance they will be introduced without an associated PLEX/Aurum cost.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3501
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:15:01 -
[293] - Quote
IBFroggy Sukarala wrote:Pay to win? Great! I`m out!
You never knew about the character bazaar or how you can buy PLEX with RL money then convert the PLEX into ISK? Really?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Kyria Stenory
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:16:19 -
[294] - Quote
Yey, it's time to train "useless skills" on all my accounts, and every 2-3 month i'll get 1m SP faster....
Seriously, no. No way. I really hope it'll never exist.
Seraphina Sazas wrote:Pay to win. Bad idea, don't do it. How are you going to "win" only with SP gain ? ^^ |
General Twitch
Alwar Fleet Alwar Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:16:22 -
[295] - Quote
I like this idea.
Right now I can buy a character with a bunch of SP. I can buy +5 implants and increase my SP accumulation rate. This would be a third option to accomplish the same goals. I know players who will not undock because of their expensive implants and potential lost training time toward specific goals. Allowing players to accomplish these goals in a more expensive but faster way would lead to more people undocking. Ive heard constant complaints about risk aversion due to implants, lack of content and painfully long training times, often from old players. This plan can help address (not fix) some of these issues. I hope more experienced players will honestly think about this and provide constructive feedback so an SP system like this can be implemented.
PS please, please stop with the RIP eve stuff. It has chased multiple people I know IRL away from this amazing game. That's content you would have had for the last year that the doomsayers have chased away.
Twitch
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TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
332
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:16:28 -
[296] - Quote
Insidious wrote:plex prices will be 4billion soon : ))))))
As long that the PLEX prices do not show an unhealthy sprint up or down CCP does not matter, they won't interfere. Nothing new, move along people, move along.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
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Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
36
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:16:47 -
[297] - Quote
No. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2017
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:17:04 -
[298] - Quote
Mynxee wrote:It's almost like you're trying to turn skill training into some weird market mini game. Or wondering how you're going to avoid screams of despair due to some planned elimination of skills that people have spent considerable time training already. Or perhaps you're just trying to milk more cash from new players desperate to "catch up".
Skill training is already a market "minigame." Visit the character bazaar for more details. I, personally, keep some of my accounts isk neutral by training pilots specifically to sell on the character bazaar.
Mynxee wrote: "skillrights"
This is a good phrase.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1691
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:17:30 -
[299] - Quote
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Iosue
Empyrean Guard Tactical Narcotics Team
289
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:17:33 -
[300] - Quote
I do not like this proposal.
Let me elaborate. IRL, time is one of the most valuable commodities. ItGÇÖs one of the few things you can't buy more of. I like that EVE has kept consistent with this reality through the years. Time in EVE boils down to SP generation and has always been the one of the more difficult limitations to work around. Sure you can go to the Bazaar and purchase a new char that fits generally into your game plan. But it wonGÇÖt be perfect; youGÇÖll have to do some additional work, end up getting more that you wanted, have to deal with a sordid past or have to wait until that right build comes along. Point being, there are drawbacks that you have to accept to get what you want.
I think pretty much everyone agrees, ISK is easy to come by in this game. Creating a drawback in the form of ISK is pretty meaningless. Based on the proposed implementation, it feels as though there will be no downside to buying or selling SP. YouGÇÖll be free to build reasonably high SP characters without having to be invested in the game or its community. This also makes choosing a career path less of a commitment. It removes the risk from choosing and pursuing a given profession because with a little ISK I can be anything else in a few moments.
This may sound silly, but I view my SP (which is in excess of 100M) as a sort of badge indicating my commitment to this game and community. ItGÇÖs the one aspect of the game that has encouraged me to keep my accounts subbed and generating SP. Because I know I canGÇÖt just go to the market and buy SP, I keep my accounts subbed even when IGÇÖm not actively playing. This proposal turns that upside down. Why bother keeping my accounts continually subbed, when I know I can just buy more SP on a whim? Granted it will come at a cost, but whatGÇÖs a few billion ISK?? The bazaar doesnGÇÖt allow this kind of exchange and shouldnGÇÖt imo.
That being said, there are certainly improvements that can be made to facility the exchange of characters. It would be nice to see an in game market for this and the ability to rename characters, but please reconsider allowing the exchange of SP. It seems like an easy fix on the surface, but IGÇÖm concerned about the lasting impacts it will have on the game and community as a whole. |
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Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:17:51 -
[301] - Quote
All the people moaning and complaining about the idea are people that already have 50-100+ million skill points...
Yes, you've spent your fair share of time training your skills to be where they are but this is NOT pay to win...
My character has 2.2million SP and am currently training core skills and want to fly a curse as its my favorite ship..
Current training time left to fly 'efficiently' - 70d 11h 21mn...
That is effectively 2.5m SP (roughly).
If I had the option to spend -ú20-30 to avoid those 70days to get into the ship I want to fly and make me want to play the game more, than I'd be happy to do it.
What issue do you see of a character being 'boosted' to 5m or even 10m skillpoints etc? I imagine it wont be cheap getting millions of skillpoints doing it this way either.
I was tempted by character bazaar and buying my own character but that character would never be 'mine'... it would never be special... never have my own name etc.
I fully agree with this option as I dont see a major issue with it.
All the vets can go cry somewhere else. Just because you dont want newbies being a 'competition' in anyway...
IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR! |
Eternity Mistseeker
Renegades of Eve Aureus Alae
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:18:24 -
[302] - Quote
Oh wow, and i actually think you're serious about this... |
ArmyOfMe
Hull Breach. Outnumbered.
459
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:18:35 -
[303] - Quote
Jebus christ, its like you guys try to come up with the most idiotic ideas at drunken partys, then select the dumbest just to see what the players feel about it. And this has to be the biggest brainfart idea ccp has had in years. No, just no.
I know your player count is down, but i can promise you it will drop like a stone if this gets implemented, as i expect a ton of vets to bugger off. I know i will if this goes through. Having played this game for 11 years just to see anyone all of a sudden catch up on sp cause they wanna spend rl money on it is just so far beyond ******** that i dont even have words strong enough to describe what i feel right now (at least not words that wont make me get a massive forumban)
Tho i do take comfort in the way CCP prices things, that you will expect that players are gonna be willing to pay a months salery for a 5m sp boost or something, so there is that
QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
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Naughty Cargo
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
48
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:18:41 -
[304] - Quote
Robnik Charante wrote: I have been playing this game very actively for two and a half years. I have never once felt limited by my SP in any regard. There's plenty to do and learn at each step along the way. If you do feel limited and are also wealthy, the character bazaar, MCT, and alt accounts are perfectly fine means to quickly acquire additional toons.
^^^^ This.
I think this is the first time I have ever commented officially on a proposed change, but this one, as others have expressed, ruins the complete and utter fundamental of what makes EVE a unique game. The time and training aspect is one of the things that attracted me in the first place. And Pay to Win makes me feel a little bit nauseous, like the game is stooping to a new (and more common) low in the realm of online computer gaming.
While I can't claim to fully understand it, and I apologise if I have misread something (it is currently 4:15am- AU timezone... yay. :P), this seems to be a way that the richer, older, not very new players will be able to exploit their past bad decisions for more iskies, and not a lot of risk or loss.
While I haven't really invested my time into it greatly, elements in game like the Opportunities feature add more to the starter gameplay that simply inputting some credit card details. Being able to explore and engage with the universe is one, if not the main, feature that makes this game great.
"On top of all that, you have to accept that you donGÇÖt get any personalization of the character youGÇÖre buying. The name, exact skill distribution and reputation are all set before you buy."
One of my favourite things about starting EVE was the ability to create my own new characters, and I still enjoy the process I have to go through to create a character. Its like the Sims, but better, cause spaceships :P I agree that it would be good to have a way to change character names (including a log of past names), maybe with a limit on the number of changes one character can go through in its lifetime? Its already possible to fiddle with a character and change it already ( when I did it, it only cost me on PLEX at the time- and I could change almost every aspect of Naughty), so how would this change in any way benefit the personalisation problem, beyond the already established methods?
Like Robnik here, I am by no means a vet, and Naughty is only just 3 years old (as of 5 days ago), so this is not just someone whining because I spent 'years and years and new players get everything and older players get **** on, whine whine...whinge'. And hells, I'd be lying if I didn't say that the idea of investing some monies (even though I get screwed by the exchange rates) for instant SP is one that makes me smile! But even with that being the case, I would miss the satisfaction that comes from, plain and simple, making an effort. How else do we learn but from our mistakes?
Also, and on a far more important note, 'Skill Training Completed'. <<< Pure satisfaction. |
DaOpa
Static Corp
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:19:19 -
[305] - Quote
Transneural Skill Packet - Cap this to working up to 25 million SP (max) with no diminishing returns.
Also may think of adding in a Cooldown Timer on "Transneural Skill Packet" - the more you use it, the longer the cooldown gets for you to reuse another one ...
About the Character Bazaar, get it out of the forums and implement a savvy ingame UI for it. This will make it more visible, safer to use by being able to list characters right from inside the client, simpler transactions... maybe even more automated on your end?
My thoughts
LP Stores DB - WH List / Systems - Live Streamer
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Aethelrian Kasenumi
Adeptus.Custodes
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:19:26 -
[306] - Quote
Mynxee wrote:
What is a potentially reasonable alternative to address skill training "mistakes" or never-gonna-use-em-again skillpoints would be a very limited capability for a character to draw a small % of existing skillpoints into a pool that could then be reallocated for other skills for THEMSELVES ONLY. At least that would still have some consequences attached to it for that character. Any such thing should always be discernible via API keys and should be expensive to perform and only allowed once in a blue moon.
There are also better ways to support new players in "catching up", one of which is just bite the damn bullet and start them with a million SPs, some allocated to basic support skills and some unallocated. I started playing when characters began with 900K allocated SP; while I recall certain frustrations in not being able to fly certain ships for awhile, I never felt particularly crippled and certainly was able to enjoy fleets with friends from pretty much the get-go. You could also do a LOT more to aid new players in making more informed early skill training choices by providing more explanatory info in skill descriptions about a skill's use, its general priority in the big picture, and complementary skills that make sense to train in a linear or alternating sequence.
I could accept this. If you could internally swap a portion of SP from useless skills to useful, there would be no net gain of SP on a character. I would still want to see some limits on the number of times this can be done per year, or a limit on how much SP one could manipulate like this.
And yes, I agree that newer players should get a bit more SP to help them feel relevant. Several of my friends who I convinced to play EVE left simply because they took breaks to train skills and just never came back. One million is not excessive, especially if it is pre-specced out to allow newbros to fly basic fits for PVE and PVP. |
Senshi Hawk
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
104
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:20:07 -
[307] - Quote
Let's make this very clear. Buying, training and selling pilots is my main source of income in this game. I am not wealthy. I am also not poor. Giving people the ability to shed skill points that they may deem "wasted", and in turn receive ISK for unallocated skill points, is something that will benefit the wealthy and make the ISK Ceiling higher. It is not overtly different than paying for subscription time, in the sense that not everybody can afford to do so.
I do not approve of paying for skill points.
I do not approve of raising the ISK Ceiling.
and I do not approve of anything that decreases the return value (fun OR isk) of training and selling your own pilots or pilots that you have acquired on an open market.
|
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
332
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:20:35 -
[308] - Quote
Murkar Omaristos wrote:I said in an earlier post that this was ridiculous and stupid.
I take that back after reading some of the other posts and thinking further. This could be very good for newer players and player retention.
What's ridiculous about it is that CCP is making this a pay-to-win service by making it available for plex. Limit the number of transfers to like two or three a year, so rich old bittervets and people who just want to buy plex to win can't abuse this, and it'd be fine.
This, just like I said before, give characters 1 slot a year and 1 buyable slot per year for PLEX based on the SP amount on the char, maybe 1 plex per X amount of skillpoints. Then lowend chars can easily grow fast (2 slots a year), and older chars can take a skill sprint when in war or something (1 normal slot, 1 for a lot of PLEX).
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
|
Wolfe copying
Perkone Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:20:40 -
[309] - Quote
Great Idea and I hope it comes to fruition.
I think this will help the character bazaar in some aspects. The AUR price will keep characters from being completely respecced to sell on the bazaar, because of the increased investment costs of re allocating sp versus homegrown sp ( A naturally trained Supercap sitter will be cheaper to create than a miner respecced to a cap sitter.). It can also be made to stream line characters that will be listed. (Taking away of unwanted skills, topping up of wanted skills).
It will be interesting to see what a packet will be going for. probably 600 - 700 mill for 500 k I imagine. but I don't know aur prices so it could be more. I would want to see it settle at around 1 billion per 500 k, after the initial crash of everyone trying to sell off their unwanted sp.
Instead of 500 k sp it should be made in packets of what a skill is 256 k , 512 k , etc..
One thing I think should happen is that there should be a diminishing return on the trading in of the high teir sp skills. X8 skills and up should be traded in for less sp to discourage the flooding of the market with unallocated sp. |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2702
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:20:44 -
[310] - Quote
Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: As someone else already said, CCP's move to make the game "more accessible" have been smashing successes so for.
Naivety is a bad thing for a business.
And as I've said, correlation is not causation. Nor does correlation exclude causation. Sure, but the burden of proof is on the person who says "X happened, therefore the fact that Y also happened shows a direct relationship." Correlation is evidence. Evidence that can be used to support a conclusion of causation. Ignoring that evidence with a platitude of "correlation is not causation" is foolish.
The general public lifted "correlation is not causation" from scientific literature, most notably the "debate" on climate change. Yet, in the broad scientific community, correlation is used as evidence of causation in tens of thousands of papers across every quantifiable subject imaginable. Correlation alone does not prove causation, but it can be and is used as part of a set of proofs for causation.. |
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Anise Tig'res
Duchy Ministry of Slave Affairs
36
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:21:15 -
[311] - Quote
CCP, I promise, I'll stop bitching about your game now. I'll be good. Please please please don't take this away now that you've offered it. Oh my god this might actually get me to spend money on your game. |
Moraguth
Ranger Corp Vae. Victis.
135
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:21:19 -
[312] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Moraguth wrote:Bitter vet reporting in.
TL;DR: I'm not quitting and you can't have my stuff, but you're taking more and more uniqueness away from the game that I've loved since the very first trailer showing actual game footage that got me to apply for the beta and get in.
The whine fest:
Right now I have just shy of 229M SP. That is a simple number that says quite a few things. Assuming I've had this character the whole time (and I have), you know roughly how long I've played the game, what I've seen, what I've been through, etc. This can be verified with the API. I earned every single one of those SP. I'm also proud to say I've missed out on less than 48 hours of training my entire time playing the game. Uhhmmm no. Those 229 million SP tell us you have had an account for a long time. It does not tell us what you have done in the game. And I can tell how long you have had account by clicking on your name in game or your profile here on the forums...Hell, I can even look you up on Eve Who and get that information. So that information will not be lost...because it is available elsewhere or was never there to begin with.
Looking at the character age just tells you when the character was created (unless you were one of those people who got hit with the bug about a decade ago where your first few employment changes were lost - that happened to my dad's main), it doesn't tell you how long i've been active. At the very least 229m tells you how long i've been paying for the game. I have several friends who started the game around the same time I did, come back once or twice a year for a couple months, and then quit again. Their SP total is very VERY different from mine.
There is a difference, and it should continue to matter.
I got a Feature Added!
Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn". It is "uh-bad-in"
dictionary.com/abaddon
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SFX Bladerunner
Black Serpent Technologies The-Culture
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:21:36 -
[313] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:
IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR!
You forget that us 'vets' had to go through the same grind as you are experiencing right now, so there is actually no unfairness on our part, it is all on your part.
I completely agree with the notion mentioned earlier that this paying for SP actually takes away from people actually ~playing the game~.
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Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Sev3rance
183
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:22:00 -
[314] - Quote
Querns wrote:Murkar Omaristos wrote:I said in an earlier post that this was ridiculous and stupid.
I take that back after reading some of the other posts and thinking further. This could be very good for newer players and player retention.
What's ridiculous about it is that CCP is making this a pay-to-win service by making it available for plex. Limit the number of transfers to like two or three a year, so rich old bittervets and people who just want to buy plex to win can't abuse this, and it'd be fine. Unfortunately, this is not possible. Right now, affecting a character transfer causes 2 PLEX to be removed from CCP's Liabilities sheet and resolved. Introduction of skill extractors without at least attempting to mirror this realization of liabilities is bad for business. There's absolutely no chance they will be introduced without an associated PLEX/Aurum cost.
Yeah :( sad panda.
Golden bullets here we come. |
Lucian Solomon
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:23:00 -
[315] - Quote
With this many tears you're on to something big CCP. Keep up the good work. It's the future, plug me in, load em up
I'm going to learn jiu jitsu.
+1 |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2017
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:23:14 -
[316] - Quote
Senshi Hawk wrote:Let's make this very clear. Buying, training and selling pilots is my main source of income in this game. I am not wealthy. I am also not poor. Giving people the ability to shed skill points that they may deem "wasted", and in turn receive ISK for unallocated skill points, is something that will benefit the wealthy and make the ISK Ceiling higher. It is not overtly different than paying for subscription time, in the sense that not everybody can afford to do so.
I do not approve of paying for skill points.
I do not approve of raising the ISK Ceiling.
and I do not approve of anything that decreases the return value (fun OR isk) of training and selling your own pilots or pilots that you have acquired on an open market.
This is not a particularly compelling appeal. Cottage markets get destroyed all the time, and no tears are shed by the ones swinging the sledgehammer.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
1013
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:23:44 -
[317] - Quote
Murkar Omaristos wrote:Golden bullets here we come.
Not today spaghetti.
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Tzu Wu
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
49
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:23:46 -
[318] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:All the people moaning and complaining about the idea are people that already have 50-100+ million skill points...
Yes, you've spent your fair share of time training your skills to be where they are but this is NOT pay to win...
My character has 2.2million SP and am currently training core skills and want to fly a curse as its my favorite ship..
Current training time left to fly 'efficiently' - 70d 11h 21mn...
That is effectively 2.5m SP (roughly).
If I had the option to spend -ú20-30 to avoid those 70days to get into the ship I want to fly and make me want to play the game more, than I'd be happy to do it.
What issue do you see of a character being 'boosted' to 5m or even 10m skillpoints etc? I imagine it wont be cheap getting millions of skillpoints doing it this way either.
I was tempted by character bazaar and buying my own character but that character would never be 'mine'... it would never be special... never have my own name etc.
I fully agree with this option as I dont see a major issue with it.
All the vets can go cry somewhere else. Just because you dont want newbies being a 'competition' in anyway...
IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR!
I have 111m sp and love the proposal. Hope to see you in a Curse soonGäó
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3502
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:24:00 -
[319] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:All the people moaning and complaining about the idea are people that already have 50-100+ million skill points...
Yes, you've spent your fair share of time training your skills to be where they are but this is NOT pay to win...
My character has 2.2million SP and am currently training core skills and want to fly a curse as its my favorite ship..
Current training time left to fly 'efficiently' - 70d 11h 21mn...
That is effectively 2.5m SP (roughly).
If I had the option to spend -ú20-30 to avoid those 70days to get into the ship I want to fly and make me want to play the game more, than I'd be happy to do it.
What issue do you see of a character being 'boosted' to 5m or even 10m skillpoints etc? I imagine it wont be cheap getting millions of skillpoints doing it this way either.
I was tempted by character bazaar and buying my own character but that character would never be 'mine'... it would never be special... never have my own name etc.
I fully agree with this option as I dont see a major issue with it.
All the vets can go cry somewhere else. Just because you dont want newbies being a 'competition' in anyway...
IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR!
In other words, like the character bazaar, but with added flexibility.
My initial reaction was negative, then unlike Ripard Teg I actually did calm down. Reread the dev post and thought about it some more.
Not sure I like the idea, but it might be good.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
lm Stuck
Caucasian Culture Club
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:24:18 -
[320] - Quote
This is a terrible idea, and you should feel bad for suggesting it.
CCP Rise is killing this game one horrible idea at a time. smh
Seriously, is CCP so broke that this is even necessary? Stop being like every other company out there and quit treating your players like cashcows to be milked until dry. |
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SkyMeetFire
Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:24:32 -
[321] - Quote
Why not lock the rate you can use either the Extractor or Packet to a fixed interval (like free remaps)?
If you limited to something like once every week, or once every 10 days you'd not longer be talking about instantly building a character but rather simply accelerating. It'd be something closer to doubling the training rate for sub 5M SP characters, and the reduced returns would dramatically drop the value for higher end players. If it was on a weekly basis, 80M+ SP characters are only talking 2.6M SP added in a year, much less than the 20M+ they add in a year for normal training. For a fresh character the max 21.8M added is significant increase to their training rate, but still requiring some time for them to build up and not be instantaneous.
That timing interval should still allow for your general idea to be achieved without allowing rich vets to abuse it so easily. |
Tank Murdock Jnr
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
56
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:24:37 -
[322] - Quote
Oh. My. Satan.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Whatever happened to choices having consequences? To paraphrase Kirk (in the terrible fifth old-school Star Trek film), if I should have turned left when I turned right, that makes me me. Well, guess what...now you can sell your unfortunate right turns! Better yet, you can sell it to a total clown who'll throw plex at it to become 'leet.
Here's a revolutionary idea...if you want to improve the character bazaar, how about...improve the character bazaar? Create an ingame character auction system that is scam-proof (and/or is governed by ban-hammer rules)? Why completely change one of the fundamental game principles (an investment in time will always trump an investment in money)?
You'd be as well selling golden ammo, you really would.
Or is that next?
When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading 'Guns and Ammo', masturbating in your own faeces...do you just stop and go, 'Wow! It is amazing how f*cking crazy I really am!'?
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2022
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:24:48 -
[323] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: As someone else already said, CCP's move to make the game "more accessible" have been smashing successes so for.
Naivety is a bad thing for a business.
And as I've said, correlation is not causation. Nor does correlation exclude causation. Sure, but the burden of proof is on the person who says "X happened, therefore the fact that Y also happened shows a direct relationship." Correlation is evidence (or perhaps more accurately an analysis of evidence, but semantics). Evidence that can be used to support a conclusion of causation. Ignoring that evidence with a platitude of "correlation is not causation" is foolish. The general public lifted "correlation is not causation" from scientific literature, most notably the "debate" on climate change. Yet, in the broad scientific community, correlation is used as evidence of causation in tens of thousands of papers across every quantifiable subject imaginable. Correlation alone does not prove causation, but it can be and is used as part of a set of proofs for causation. Evidence alone is not sufficient. It has to be shown to directly affect the causation. Observing PCU count drop isn't even that great as evidence, because PCU itself is only tenuously related to subscriber count.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Moraguth
Ranger Corp Vae. Victis.
135
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:25:16 -
[324] - Quote
Mane Frehm wrote:My initial reaction was very negative (full disclosure - this impacts me personally), but after thinking about it for a while I had the following thoughts:
1. The devblog talks about problems with the character bazaar and then somehow leaps to the conclusion that we need a method to transfer skillpoints from 1 character to another. The solution presented does not address the identified problem! If there are problems with the character bazaar, then identify and address those, (although in my opinion it is a classic information market where those with better information make profits from those with less).
2. Many others in this thread have already identified issues with characters suddenly being differently capable then expected, or the potential for abuse. These are valid concerns.
3. This does strike me as someones clever idea for extracting money from an older/declining player base. CCP has the right to run its game as it pleases, but I suggest to you this has the potential to greatly accelerate the current decline.
One of the earlier posters in this thread stated "I've told people that eve is about choices, community, and consequences." Very well said, Moraguth.
I would like to add to that by saying that characters are the reflection of those choices, communities and consequences. Each character has a history and a story, and once you allow skillpoints to move between characters you run the risk of destroying that. Where will the next Chribba come from if any character can instantly be capable of anything? What about the next great solo pilot, pirate queen or alliance leader? Characters are more than just their current owners, and you don't need to be a role player to see this.
In conclusion - I do think this is a bad idea; please don't do it.
Thanks, and I agree with your issue with the train of logic problem you talked about.
I got a Feature Added!
Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn". It is "uh-bad-in"
dictionary.com/abaddon
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2022
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:25:37 -
[325] - Quote
Murkar Omaristos wrote:Querns wrote:Murkar Omaristos wrote:I said in an earlier post that this was ridiculous and stupid.
I take that back after reading some of the other posts and thinking further. This could be very good for newer players and player retention.
What's ridiculous about it is that CCP is making this a pay-to-win service by making it available for plex. Limit the number of transfers to like two or three a year, so rich old bittervets and people who just want to buy plex to win can't abuse this, and it'd be fine. Unfortunately, this is not possible. Right now, affecting a character transfer causes 2 PLEX to be removed from CCP's Liabilities sheet and resolved. Introduction of skill extractors without at least attempting to mirror this realization of liabilities is bad for business. There's absolutely no chance they will be introduced without an associated PLEX/Aurum cost. Yeah :( sad panda. Golden bullets here we come. It seems you completely missed the point of what I said.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Grog Barrel
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:25:57 -
[326] - Quote
The idea itself is already quite insulting to the playerbase. I can even imagine your faces when you guys sit at the round table without ideas and someone out of utter boredom and aspiring to become some kind of "leader creative" comes up with such an aberration of a brainfart. |
Lucian Solomon
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:25:57 -
[327] - Quote
It's primarily all the players that did not have the luxury all the young ones get to have.
Remember all the salties not wanting to let go of the learning skills :) |
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH Circle-Of-Two
118
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:26:12 -
[328] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:All the people moaning and complaining about the idea are people that already have 50-100+ million skill points...
Yes, you've spent your fair share of time training your skills to be where they are but this is NOT pay to win...
My character has 2.2million SP and am currently training core skills and want to fly a curse as its my favorite ship..
Current training time left to fly 'efficiently' - 70d 11h 21mn...
That is effectively 2.5m SP (roughly).
If I had the option to spend -ú20-30 to avoid those 70days to get into the ship I want to fly and make me want to play the game more, than I'd be happy to do it.
What issue do you see of a character being 'boosted' to 5m or even 10m skillpoints etc? I imagine it wont be cheap getting millions of skillpoints doing it this way either.
I was tempted by character bazaar and buying my own character but that character would never be 'mine'... it would never be special... never have my own name etc.
I fully agree with this option as I dont see a major issue with it.
All the vets can go cry somewhere else. Just because you dont want newbies being a 'competition' in anyway...
IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR!
YOU DON'T BUY YOUR WAY INTO EVE >>>YOU EARN YOUR WAY INTO EVE ....like we all did ! |
HarlyQ
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
106
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:26:15 -
[329] - Quote
CCP please do this I want to make 5 more mining alts with names I made. Looking forward to this thank you. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2022
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:26:42 -
[330] - Quote
Lucian Solomon wrote:With this many tears you're on to something big CCP. Keep up the good work. It's the future, plug me in, load em up
I'm going to learn jiu jitsu.
+1 That it took 15 pages for someone to (basically) make this reference to The Matrix astounds me.
I would have made it myself, but I had more substantive things to say. (Not to discount the value of a good reference.)
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
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Acks
RONA Corporation Nerfed Alliance Go Away
79
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:26:44 -
[331] - Quote
This is about as wrong a way to handle this as possible. I can not emphasize that strongly enough
1) There should NEVER be the ability to buy SP. Period full stop. SP should have to be trained. A trained character should not be able to be dissected and sold off for parts. The prestige of having SP is the work and effort put into developing the character, warts and all.
2) Adding a more streamlined method for FULL character sales would be welcome.
3) Adding the ability to rename a bought character is a regular request but a hard one. I would say that if the owner of the new account is different from the previous one that a rename is allowed and that toon could not be sold back to the original owner after a rename. IE do not allow a player to scrub the reputation off their toons.
All that being said, PLEASE do not implement this as proposed. |
Thirdsin
The Red Island Foundation Shadow Cartel
32
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:27:08 -
[332] - Quote
If this goes live I'd like some way of knowing if a character injected one of these pay-to-win packets. If someone comes into local, I can show info and make some sort of judgement call on what they might be in based on character age, history etc. Obviously this won't happen, frustrating. Changes to gameplay and meta aside, this is another animal completely.
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HarlyQ
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
106
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:27:13 -
[333] - Quote
Captain Africa wrote:Skinzee wrote:All the people moaning and complaining about the idea are people that already have 50-100+ million skill points...
Yes, you've spent your fair share of time training your skills to be where they are but this is NOT pay to win...
My character has 2.2million SP and am currently training core skills and want to fly a curse as its my favorite ship..
Current training time left to fly 'efficiently' - 70d 11h 21mn...
That is effectively 2.5m SP (roughly).
If I had the option to spend -ú20-30 to avoid those 70days to get into the ship I want to fly and make me want to play the game more, than I'd be happy to do it.
What issue do you see of a character being 'boosted' to 5m or even 10m skillpoints etc? I imagine it wont be cheap getting millions of skillpoints doing it this way either.
I was tempted by character bazaar and buying my own character but that character would never be 'mine'... it would never be special... never have my own name etc.
I fully agree with this option as I dont see a major issue with it.
All the vets can go cry somewhere else. Just because you dont want newbies being a 'competition' in anyway...
IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR! YOU DON'T BUY YOUR WAY INTO EVE >>>YOU EARN YOUR WAY INTO EVE ....like we all did ! Get out of this game you idiot. You do realize that you can buy a character from the bazar right. |
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:27:28 -
[334] - Quote
SFX Bladerunner wrote:Skinzee wrote:
IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR!
You forget that us 'vets' had to go through the same grind as you are experiencing right now, so there is actually no unfairness on our part, it is all on your part.
1. Did you enjoy waiting 16days to train for cruiser V? Im sure you didnt, Im sure you was sat in your little chair bouncing up and down wishing the time would go faster so that you could fly the ship you wanted.
2. SFX Bladerunner wrote:I completely agree with the notion mentioned earlier that this paying for SP actually takes away from people actually ~playing the game~.
- Seriously? You just said that? Thats one thing about this game that you dont actually play for... Its not a grind fest like other MMO's. I cant mission my way to get into a BS in 5hours. I have to wait days. Waiting is not playing. Yes, obviously you can still play the game in a frigate or cruiser or w/e you can currently fly but paying for SP does not take away the playing... infact it would make me play more because I would actually be able to play in a ship that suits me better.
I want to fly a cloaky cruiser and neut people in PvP.... Not fire tissue balls at them from my kestrel. |
Ssoraszh Tzarszh
Eschelon Directive Holesale Operations
81
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:27:55 -
[335] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:OK, I've calmed down slightly. Let's give you guys some specific feedback so that you understand what a ******* terrible idea this is.
I have an alt I bought on the bazaar years ago. He has 82 million SP. Much of it is focused on mining and reprocessing, skills I haven't used in years. As long as I'm a whale...
Step 1: Pump a ton of Aurum into CCP to buy 84 Transneural Skill Extractors. Step 2: Use them to create 84 Transneural Skill Packets for a total of 42 million SP. Step 3: Consume 25 of them myself to bring myself to 50 million SP, dumping my useless SP and focusing this alt on incursion-running. Step 4: Sell 59 Transneural Skill Packets on the market, making it more or less unnecessary for me to actually run incursions for a while since 59 of these are going to be worth a ton of ISK.
And that doesn't even get into the matter of using those 84 Packets to more or less instantly jump a new character from 0 to 40 million SP. Character ages and birth dates will become completely meaningless.
Again, I can do these things as long as I'm a whale and pump a ton of money into CCP for the 84 Transneural Skill Extractors.
Am I missing anything here? Who in God's name thought this was a good idea? Can we sell them to Riot?
How is that different from:
Step 1: Pump a ton of Aurum into CCP to buy 84 PLEX. Step 2: Sell 25 PLEX in Jita to get some isk. Step 3: Buy a character on the bazaar. dumping my useless char and buying a char for incursion-running. Step 4: Sell 59 PLEX on the market, making it more or less unnecessary for me to actually run incursions for a while since 59 of these are going to be worth a ton of ISK.
Like the only argument that stands will be the assessment of age = sp which could lead to silly situations yeah, but 99% of the time people look at shiptype anyway.
PS: as an FYI i did not do math science majicks on the conversions Aurum/Plex to sp ratio thingy mabob. My point is just that if someone wants to buy a 200mil sp char right now that option already exists via the " $ to PLEX to Character Bazaar" formulae.
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K04 78
C.Q.B Snuffed Out
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:28:05 -
[336] - Quote
Hell NO!
First of all, it would be a kick in the balls of every older player. We've spent months over months to get all the cool skills. And you plan to give kiddies with too much money the tools to Instalearn ?
And second: I dont know how others think of this, but a huge part of the "fun", or more precisely, the motivation, that keept me playing this game, was to reach the next ship, make it as perfect as possible and win fights by overwhelming skills (and fittings ).
If you release this, you'll just remove that moviation factor. It's a bit like cheating in games. It may get you through a level fast, but it completely removes the fun and challange.
And this is something, that makes EVE different to all the other games out there: Having a hard time mastering it, and "learning" it. You just need time, to get into all the ships. Character basar is bad enough. But I understand, that ppl will always buy chars by ebay etc, so you counter it. Thats fine. But THIS is just a very stupid way to earn cash by raping your child
Please don't!
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Josia
Sunrise Services
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:28:29 -
[337] - Quote
My opinion: NO.
What CCP will say when they search this thread: Look 5% say they like the idea. Hooray. Let's do it . |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2022
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:28:58 -
[338] - Quote
Acks wrote:This is about as wrong a way to handle this as possible. I can not emphasize that strongly enough
1) There should NEVER be the ability to buy SP. Period full stop. The existence of the character bazaar must really irk you.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Kilian Katar
Tenth Company
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:29:28 -
[339] - Quote
As some people have already pointed out slightly let me explain why it is bad for people, at present, there are 4 pretty solid ways of making isk in the game, Incursions, Wormhole sites, Carrier Ratting, Null Mining, and yes I am sure there are plenty of other ways to make isk, but these are the strongest I have seen recently.
Now each of these carries risk, Sansha kills some incursioners quite regularly, and requires a fair bit of isk investment for a decent ship. Wormholes, Sleepers are rather dangerous, you have no local and can be killed without penalty, Null Mining, usually with a fleet this presents a nice target for bombers, black ops and capitals. and well carrier ratting... huge ship with slow align probably afk and relies on others to escape (cyno) all have risk to make isk.
With this proposal from ccp. I could make 5 accounts that I wouldn't need multiple monitors or input broadcasting for, each with 3 characters (if restrictions were put in place on how often you can skill extract) with a small investment of +5 implants in two attributes and completely remapping towards those skills., and only having one character on each account training at a time, (switching as each gets to its limit) I could farm **** tonne of SP in a short space of time and sell it on with ZERO risk too myself, yes thats right zero isk, even station traders have risk, if markets go south, this method would be risk free, never undocking and SP would maintain a certain level of worth because of the cost involved of keeping characters training, extracting the sp, selling the sp, and making a profit. |
Lucian Solomon
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:29:34 -
[340] - Quote
Querns wrote:Lucian Solomon wrote:With this many tears you're on to something big CCP. Keep up the good work. It's the future, plug me in, load em up
I'm going to learn jiu jitsu.
+1 That it took 15 pages for someone to (basically) make this reference to The Matrix astounds me. I would have made it myself, but I had more substantive things to say. (Not to discount the value of a good reference.)
Load up the grid gentlemen. This is going to be AMAZING for pvp ;) |
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HarlyQ
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
106
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:29:48 -
[341] - Quote
Josia wrote:My opinion: NO. What CCP will say when they search this thread: Look 5% say they like the idea. Hooray. Let's do it . I hope that is what happens since we can already buy focused pilots off the bazaar. |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
334
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:29:55 -
[342] - Quote
Tank Murdock Jnr wrote:Oh. My. Satan.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Whatever happened to choices having consequences? To paraphrase Kirk (in the terrible fifth old-school Star Trek film), if I should have turned left when I turned right, that makes me me. Well, guess what...now you can sell your unfortunate right turns! Better yet, you can sell it to a total clown who'll throw plex at it to become 'leet.
Or is that next?
The general pool of skill points does not change, so, how do you see the roaming off SP by skilled players not as a strategic gameplay thing?
No-one is becoming 'Leet by buying skillpoint, but by learning to fly a ship.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
|
Nick The HITMAN
BRUTAL GENESIS GaNg BaNg TeAm
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:30:02 -
[343] - Quote
Don't do it. This is simply trading SP for AUR.
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Sir Gankal0t
Fortuna Heavy Industries
27
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:30:45 -
[344] - Quote
hmmmm i have to think about this one and see whats coming out of the hat of CCP, as i read the blog now my first thoughts are NO. We have to wait and see.... |
Silvy Yanumano
Perkone Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:30:49 -
[345] - Quote
Drilla wrote:Querns wrote:Drilla wrote:Querns wrote:
Yeah, how dare the game be more accessible!
Because every time it's made more accessible it has increased the userbase right? That's why there are more online now than 5 years ago right? Correlation is not causation. If you understood EVE and had played it long enough, you (and CCP) would know the only thing that brings in new players and retains them in any significant numbers are vets. Penalizing vets are just plain stupid. You can put all the makeup on the pig you want, it's still a pig - vets bring the sandbox to life and that is what retains the new players.
My only interaction with vets as a new player was listening to them complain about every little thing ever and tell me I didn't have enough sp. So, one of us is full of crap. |
Monasucks
BLACK SQUADRON. RAZOR Alliance
148
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:30:53 -
[346] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:All the people moaning and complaining about the idea are people that already have 50-100+ million skill points...
Yes, you've spent your fair share of time training your skills to be where they are but this is NOT pay to win...
My character has 2.2million SP and am currently training core skills and want to fly a curse as its my favorite ship..
Current training time left to fly 'efficiently' - 70d 11h 21mn...
That is effectively 2.5m SP (roughly).
If I had the option to spend -ú20-30 to avoid those 70days to get into the ship I want to fly and make me want to play the game more, than I'd be happy to do it.
What issue do you see of a character being 'boosted' to 5m or even 10m skillpoints etc? I imagine it wont be cheap getting millions of skillpoints doing it this way either.
I was tempted by character bazaar and buying my own character but that character would never be 'mine'... it would never be special... never have my own name etc.
I fully agree with this option as I dont see a major issue with it.
All the vets can go cry somewhere else. Just because you dont want newbies being a 'competition' in anyway...
IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR!
Just to make it clear in the 70days till your favorit ship you will discover what else is also needed.. etc. and than start training more and get more addicted to the game. maybe you will buy a plex to get some isk. but that's it. you will continue if you make it for a long time inf EVE.
on the other hand you spend now 30Gé¼ for your 10m SP you want.. and another 30Gé¼ in plex and a month gametime. get board and stop playing EVE - congrats - you have won pay to win..
bye o7
don't forget to unsub your account right now
Can I haz you're stuff?
[i][b]A good worker is a live worker. Free to live - and work! A bad worker is a dead worker; and vice versa. Don't be a bad worker; bad workers are slaves, and dead. Payday for good workers has been postponed indefinitely. Pa
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Madgic
Nexis. Usurper.
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:30:58 -
[347] - Quote
When did Eve become Facebook?
Payers don't have to play the game to earn isk, and soon they wont even have to log on to max out their skills.
No No No NO Worst Idea ever please Don't candy Crush my game. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
12456
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:30:59 -
[348] - Quote
This is a **** idea, do not do this
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2022
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:31:02 -
[349] - Quote
Josia wrote:My opinion: NO. What CCP will say when they search this thread: Look 5% say they like the idea. Hooray. Let's do it . It is curious, isn't it?
Actually, no -- most of the people who dislike the idea are posting word salads rife with the tell-tale signs of an emotional outburst. Any sane person can easily discount these posts, as they add nothing.
Those who like the change typically post like me, and therefore are more worthy of consideration.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
334
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:31:54 -
[350] - Quote
Josia wrote:My opinion: NO. What CCP will say when they search this thread: Look 5% say they like the idea. Hooray. Let's do it .
Just like the PVP arena always gets a higher grade of focus in all expansions?
All other people just have to make due... booh! EVE is so unfair.
Oh wait....
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
|
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2022
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:32:15 -
[351] - Quote
Nick The HITMAN wrote:Don't do it. This is simply trading SP for AUR.
I suppose the fact that you have to load the extractor with SP already in someone's brain is completely lost on you.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Tzu Wu
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
49
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:32:16 -
[352] - Quote
Captain Africa wrote:Skinzee wrote:All the people moaning and complaining about the idea are people that already have 50-100+ million skill points...
Yes, you've spent your fair share of time training your skills to be where they are but this is NOT pay to win...
My character has 2.2million SP and am currently training core skills and want to fly a curse as its my favorite ship..
Current training time left to fly 'efficiently' - 70d 11h 21mn...
That is effectively 2.5m SP (roughly).
If I had the option to spend -ú20-30 to avoid those 70days to get into the ship I want to fly and make me want to play the game more, than I'd be happy to do it.
What issue do you see of a character being 'boosted' to 5m or even 10m skillpoints etc? I imagine it wont be cheap getting millions of skillpoints doing it this way either.
I was tempted by character bazaar and buying my own character but that character would never be 'mine'... it would never be special... never have my own name etc.
I fully agree with this option as I dont see a major issue with it.
All the vets can go cry somewhere else. Just because you dont want newbies being a 'competition' in anyway...
IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR! YOU DON'T BUY YOUR WAY INTO EVE >>>YOU EARN YOUR WAY INTO EVE ....like we all did !
Don't speak for everyone man. Have you not heard of the character bazaar? Saying "we all earned it" is beyond idiotic. That's just as much p2w as this is.
|
Anastasia Nikolaeva
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:32:51 -
[353] - Quote
This is a great idea. Do this! |
Ssoraszh Tzarszh
Eschelon Directive Holesale Operations
81
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:33:15 -
[354] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:SFX Bladerunner wrote:Skinzee wrote:
IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR!
You forget that us 'vets' had to go through the same grind as you are experiencing right now, so there is actually no unfairness on our part, it is all on your part. 1. Did you enjoy waiting 16days to train for cruiser V? Im sure you didnt, Im sure you was sat in your little chair bouncing up and down wishing the time would go faster so that you could fly the ship you wanted. 2. SFX Bladerunner wrote:I completely agree with the notion mentioned earlier that this paying for SP actually takes away from people actually ~playing the game~.
- Seriously? You just said that? Thats one thing about this game that you dont actually play for... Its not a grind fest like other MMO's. I cant mission my way to get into a BS in 5hours. I have to wait days. Waiting is not playing. Yes, obviously you can still play the game in a frigate or cruiser or w/e you can currently fly but paying for SP does not take away the playing... infact it would make me play more because I would actually be able to play in a ship that suits me better. I want to fly a cloaky cruiser and neut people in PvP.... Not fire tissue balls at them from my kestrel.
I see your point, but why the hell would you not play the game even when skilling into some other ship, it took me years to fly BS but i did not actually just log out and stop doing stuff. You really just start skills and then log off and play other games until your lvl 5's are finished?
Like who said that you need to fly a BS to play this game? I have so many confused questions against this mentality that i actually don't know how to ask them. Don't get me wrong no hatin' just really not getting this line of thought. |
Paranoid Loyd
7190
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:33:18 -
[355] - Quote
Obligatory
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH Circle-Of-Two
118
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:33:37 -
[356] - Quote
TheSmokingHertog wrote:Tank Murdock Jnr wrote:Oh. My. Satan.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Whatever happened to choices having consequences? To paraphrase Kirk (in the terrible fifth old-school Star Trek film), if I should have turned left when I turned right, that makes me me. Well, guess what...now you can sell your unfortunate right turns! Better yet, you can sell it to a total clown who'll throw plex at it to become 'leet.
Or is that next? The general pool of skill points does not change, so, how do you see the roaming off SP by skilled players not as a strategic gameplay thing? No-one is becoming 'Leet by buying skillpoint, but by learning to fly a ship.
OF COURSE IT CHANGES ....you know how much sp is sitting in characters no one wants to buy ? and that's,s why its not hurting the game. |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
334
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:33:43 -
[357] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:This is a **** idea, do not do this
I like your well set out path of thought.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
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Leisha Miranen
The Alabaster Albatross Sev3rance
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:33:45 -
[358] - Quote
CCP, remember the community reaction before Fozzie Sov was released?
Same thing goinon here. And remember just how well Fozzie Sov panned out when the feedback was ignored. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2022
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:34:24 -
[359] - Quote
Madgic wrote:When did Eve become Facebook?
Payers don't have to play the game to earn isk, and soon they wont even have to log on to max out their skills.
No No No NO Worst Idea ever please Don't candy Crush my game. Ah, yes, the onerous burden of logging in.
I have a 300 day skill queue and I can donate PLEX to my account to keep it alive from without. Clearly, the fact that I need to log in to manage it about twice a year is what made my SP have meaning.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Grog Barrel
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:35:03 -
[360] - Quote
Querns wrote:Josia wrote:My opinion: NO. What CCP will say when they search this thread: Look 5% say they like the idea. Hooray. Let's do it . It is curious, isn't it? Actually, no -- most of the people who dislike the idea are posting word salads rife with the tell-tale signs of an emotional outburst. Any sane person can easily discount these posts, as they add nothing. Those who like the change typically post like me, and therefore are more worthy of consideration.
I find the amount of posts by goonies whiteknighting this idea rather interesting at this point, as if the idea itself came from an important (ex)goonie... ohwait. |
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Lavayar
Russian SOBR Dream Fleet
233
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:35:08 -
[361] - Quote
This is ****!
Are you serious? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3503
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:35:26 -
[362] - Quote
Captain Africa wrote:Skinzee wrote:All the people moaning and complaining about the idea are people that already have 50-100+ million skill points...
Yes, you've spent your fair share of time training your skills to be where they are but this is NOT pay to win...
My character has 2.2million SP and am currently training core skills and want to fly a curse as its my favorite ship..
Current training time left to fly 'efficiently' - 70d 11h 21mn...
That is effectively 2.5m SP (roughly).
If I had the option to spend -ú20-30 to avoid those 70days to get into the ship I want to fly and make me want to play the game more, than I'd be happy to do it.
What issue do you see of a character being 'boosted' to 5m or even 10m skillpoints etc? I imagine it wont be cheap getting millions of skillpoints doing it this way either.
I was tempted by character bazaar and buying my own character but that character would never be 'mine'... it would never be special... never have my own name etc.
I fully agree with this option as I dont see a major issue with it.
All the vets can go cry somewhere else. Just because you dont want newbies being a 'competition' in anyway...
IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR! YOU DON'T BUY YOUR WAY INTO EVE >>>YOU EARN YOUR WAY INTO EVE ....like we all did !
RL money -> PLEX -> ISK -> Character Bazaar -> bought your way into Eve with out this idea.
So this idea basically works like the character bazaar but you get to name your character, select your gender, design your avatar, and ensure that the SP go exactly where you want.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Tado
Dead Space Industries
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:35:34 -
[363] - Quote
No thank you this is a terrible idea.
I have been playing this game since day one and for me this idea of yours will kill EVE for me. |
Kilian Katar
Tenth Company
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:36:05 -
[364] - Quote
Leisha Miranen wrote:CCP, remember the community reaction before Fozzie Sov was released?
Same thing goinon here. And remember just how well Fozzie Sov panned out when the feedback was ignored.
Bit of a difference here, Sov needed to be changed, nobody could agree on how but it needed it. There is NO need for this current proposal other than CCP's bank balance. |
Grimar Leifson
State Protectorate Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:36:08 -
[365] - Quote
I think this is a bad idea.
Buying skillpoints for money is always a bad idea. Doesn't matter if ingame money or real money (which is basically the same in eve terms).
A skill I've just bought doesn't feel als exciting as a skill that I've actually spent some time training for.
Also people will just grind isk not to buy ships and blow them up, but to buy skills and more skills. I don't see that helping the climate of eve one bit. Actually more people likely get bored if they
Instead of investing time in something like this CCP should rather fix the hideous thing that is the attribute and remap system. And the fix would be rather easy: no neural remaps, every attribute has the same basis value of 27 and we keep the learning implants so that pod traveling is still risky.
No more postponing skilltrains into new ships or roles just because it is suboptimal with the current remap which basically only hurts the players younger than 2 years. Overall skilltraining would also be a bit faster (but not much) which is also a good sideeffect since the training time for individual skills only increases by a small amount compared to current optimal primary/secondary attribute remaps (the difference between the full 27 points in the secondary attribute to the usual 21 points with current perfect remaps).
That would be something worth investing development time into CCP. But you guys rather work on something that doesn't really benefit the playerbase as much as it hurts it. Which I can kind of understand since you're a business and it will make you shitloads of money. |
Alladir
Alladarium
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:36:22 -
[366] - Quote
It would be nice if most ppl who are against it would at least argument their opinions. Most ppl either just post a "no" reply or use arguments that are easily countered like "pay 2 win" when sp and even ships won't compensate player skill, or "everyone should train char from scratch / buying skills for plex is bad" when there is a char bazaar. |
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH Circle-Of-Two
118
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:36:23 -
[367] - Quote
Tzu Wu wrote:Captain Africa wrote:Skinzee wrote:All the people moaning and complaining about the idea are people that already have 50-100+ million skill points...
Yes, you've spent your fair share of time training your skills to be where they are but this is NOT pay to win...
My character has 2.2million SP and am currently training core skills and want to fly a curse as its my favorite ship..
Current training time left to fly 'efficiently' - 70d 11h 21mn...
That is effectively 2.5m SP (roughly).
If I had the option to spend -ú20-30 to avoid those 70days to get into the ship I want to fly and make me want to play the game more, than I'd be happy to do it.
What issue do you see of a character being 'boosted' to 5m or even 10m skillpoints etc? I imagine it wont be cheap getting millions of skillpoints doing it this way either.
I was tempted by character bazaar and buying my own character but that character would never be 'mine'... it would never be special... never have my own name etc.
I fully agree with this option as I dont see a major issue with it.
All the vets can go cry somewhere else. Just because you dont want newbies being a 'competition' in anyway...
IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR! YOU DON'T BUY YOUR WAY INTO EVE >>>YOU EARN YOUR WAY INTO EVE ....like we all did ! Don't speak for everyone man. Have you not heard of the character bazaar? Saying "we all earned it" is beyond idiotic. That's just as much p2w as this is.
Your the idiot do you really think people know me by my real name ...were working with entities . You buy an entity that is a huge difference between buying skills.
You buy a rap sheet and you have to live with the consequences...that's the eve i know ... |
Align Planet1
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:36:33 -
[368] - Quote
I have no problem with it. I may change my mind, but no one on this thread given me a reason to change my mind so far. |
Monasucks
BLACK SQUADRON. RAZOR Alliance
149
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:36:43 -
[369] - Quote
Leisha Miranen wrote:CCP, remember the community reaction before Fozzie Sov was released?
Same thing goinon here. And remember just how well Fozzie Sov panned out when the feedback was ignored.
That sov worked out? Many players stopped playing eve.. big blocks still exists.. It's now much more a pain for them in the a** But well better f*** they people paying you to life and work CCP instead of doing something for them.
Can I haz you're stuff?
[i][b]A good worker is a live worker. Free to live - and work! A bad worker is a dead worker; and vice versa. Don't be a bad worker; bad workers are slaves, and dead. Payday for good workers has been postponed indefinitely. Pa
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2027
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:37:04 -
[370] - Quote
Grog Barrel wrote:Querns wrote:Josia wrote:My opinion: NO. What CCP will say when they search this thread: Look 5% say they like the idea. Hooray. Let's do it . It is curious, isn't it? Actually, no -- most of the people who dislike the idea are posting word salads rife with the tell-tale signs of an emotional outburst. Any sane person can easily discount these posts, as they add nothing. Those who like the change typically post like me, and therefore are more worthy of consideration. I find the amount of posts by goonies whiteknighting this idea rather interesting at this point, as if the idea itself came from an important (ex)goonie... ohwait. Who, Rise? He's not a goon.
In fact, there are no more goons left on staff at CCP.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2027
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:38:01 -
[371] - Quote
Tado wrote:No thank you this is a terrible idea.
I have been playing this game since day one and for me this idea of yours will kill EVE for me. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume your motivation for playing Eve is to watch the SP number go up.
I'd recommend Cookie Clicker as a more satisfying number incrementing simulator, personally.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:38:09 -
[372] - Quote
I have a question for ALL people that say this is a bad idea...
--- WHAT EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON YOU AS A PILOT IF THIS WOULD ACTUALLY GO LIVE? ---
There is already an option to buy 0-200m SP characters... Character Bazaar - (Thats Pay2Win if you look at it that way)
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Ruvin
Out of Sight.
183
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:38:34 -
[373] - Quote
I was first very possitive about this , then read a bit of reddit and thought that maybe i was wrong and it was so nice after all . Then i thought a bit more , in the end its not so "bad" or gamebreaking . But neither it is that good .
For example point 1 , new players . New player has little SP no money and no friends , he also may soon realise he will need an alt its almost mandatoory . His choice is either accept harsh universe or put a hefty real money investment . Both i think bad , i like the idea of giving money as bonus , for skins clothes (i have a monocle and 2 bionic arms right now ) But older players those who are investing in EVE not new people it scares and alienates them , there is already to much talking about p2w .
Point 2 new players friends of veterans , probably aimed customer base , but i for example am introducing a new friend right now . I specced his attributes right and doing a super focused training , so he gets "viable" asap . Also we are considering getting a starter alt/main oof 15-30 sp to dual train or to be viable before main acc gets to this point . Money and ships arent a probllem i will provide this . So here yes i could inject him with 2 3 milions (btw he has already 5milions so diminushing returns kick in ) So already loosing , alsoo acelerator should be better used AFTER injecting a boost of 5 milion sp so you get full profit withoout diminuishing returns . Anyway usefullness is there i see it "here" .
Old characters : if someone has 1 trilion isk and 200kk sp i dont rlly care if he gets 20 more milions or not , doubt many do . If you are dirty rich for example Mittani and he has either 150kk sp or 300kk sp anyone cares ? Not rlly it doesnt give him that much of advantage . And they also reduce sp ingame which is good .
The problems : I think would be bad skills , i think xxxxxx SP into mining and xxxxxx into space ship comand is a big difference .
Training with 2 attrributes maxxed and then just spread around those SP , or having full leadershiip social section done without never respecing into social is a bit to good .
Now if we for example have command ships we do not need to train prerequisites , what will happen in such situations ?
To be honest i think it puts a BIG barrier between REAL newbies , and current players base & co .
Even if i like the idea where how it started i dont rlly like the implementation , not cos of p2w and so on . But i think there should be other ways to make a "bought" character "yours" . I understand name wipe and corp history is out of question but i would rather look into that directiion .
Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
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Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
441
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:39:06 -
[374] - Quote
This idea has come up in many variations on the F&I forum time after time. Every time it has been shot down and rightly so. CCP read your own forums for a change.
Here's a linky to the stickied thread on the topic:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=406137&find=unread
To reiterate; Just no, Hell no!
Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
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Hendrink Collie
Blood Oath Foundation Adaptation.
73
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:39:09 -
[375] - Quote
Querns wrote:Tado wrote:No thank you this is a terrible idea.
I have been playing this game since day one and for me this idea of yours will kill EVE for me. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume your motivation for playing Eve is to watch the SP number go up. I'd recommend Cookie Clicker as a more satisfying number incrementing simulator, personally.
I don't know, I personally really like making the ship spinner counter go up. |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2703
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:39:55 -
[376] - Quote
Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: As someone else already said, CCP's move to make the game "more accessible" have been smashing successes so for.
Naivety is a bad thing for a business.
[...] Sure, but the burden of proof is on the person who says "X happened, therefore the fact that Y also happened shows a direct relationship." Correlation is evidence (or perhaps more accurately an analysis of evidence, but semantics). Evidence that can be used to support a conclusion of causation. Ignoring that evidence with a platitude of "correlation is not causation" is foolish. The general public lifted "correlation is not causation" from scientific literature, most notably the "debate" on climate change. Yet, in the broad scientific community, correlation is used as evidence of causation in tens of thousands of papers across every quantifiable subject imaginable. Correlation alone does not prove causation, but it can be and is used as part of a set of proofs for causation. Evidence alone is not sufficient. It has to be shown to directly affect the causation. Observing PCU count drop isn't even that great as evidence, because PCU itself is only tenuously related to subscriber count. Every argument or thesis starts off with nothing but a scrap of evidence or observation. Nascent ideas are not discarded out of hand because they haven't been completely proven yet. Especially if there is some evidence for them.
My own view is that driving eve too far into the "accessible" category may result in depriving the game of unique aspects - choices with consequences.
From where I stand, the drive to make sov more accessible (looking at you sov wands & ceptors) has directly led to a great many individuals and entities out right abandoning the game entirely. This isn't some PCU count bullshit. F*ck PCU. This is about long-term players and community organizations preferring (figurative) death to living with these "ease of accessibility" changes.
Selling SP for isk, in any arbitrary amount, in any arbitrary package removes hard choices from the game. I like hard choices. I like playing games with hard choices.
Today you can buy a character, true. But that is a character crafted by another, with it's own flaws and skills not made to tailor for each individual. And you pay a market rate for them - some combinations of SP are worth more than others depending on the meta. Creating such characters, choosing to buy characters that are imperfect in one way or another represents hard choices made by either the buyer or the seller, and this is good.
If I didn't want hard choices, I'd be playing candy crush or DudeBroShooter 2015 October Edition. |
Tank Murdock Jnr
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
56
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:40:05 -
[377] - Quote
Hey...wait a minute.
Does this mean I'll be able to sell Mining 2, and all the other total carebear crap I was born with? Hmmm.
When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading 'Guns and Ammo', masturbating in your own faeces...do you just stop and go, 'Wow! It is amazing how f*cking crazy I really am!'?
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Felo Maxun
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
115
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:40:37 -
[378] - Quote
! This is a terrible idea ! |
Yin Zheng
Sequent Industry Out of Sight.
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:40:51 -
[379] - Quote
ITT: I can't even come up with any constructive arguments against this feature, because it is just this good. But please don't implement it because it's not how it was up until now, and also because I somehow have a gut feeling that this is bad! |
Tank Murdock Jnr
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
56
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:40:56 -
[380] - Quote
Also...will I be able to sell all the skills I train on my disposable gank alts prior to me biomassing them?
When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading 'Guns and Ammo', masturbating in your own faeces...do you just stop and go, 'Wow! It is amazing how f*cking crazy I really am!'?
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Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:41:01 -
[381] - Quote
Captain Africa wrote:Tzu Wu wrote:Captain Africa wrote:Skinzee wrote:All the people moaning and complaining about the idea are people that already have 50-100+ million skill points...
Yes, you've spent your fair share of time training your skills to be where they are but this is NOT pay to win...
My character has 2.2million SP and am currently training core skills and want to fly a curse as its my favorite ship..
Current training time left to fly 'efficiently' - 70d 11h 21mn...
That is effectively 2.5m SP (roughly).
If I had the option to spend -ú20-30 to avoid those 70days to get into the ship I want to fly and make me want to play the game more, than I'd be happy to do it.
What issue do you see of a character being 'boosted' to 5m or even 10m skillpoints etc? I imagine it wont be cheap getting millions of skillpoints doing it this way either.
I was tempted by character bazaar and buying my own character but that character would never be 'mine'... it would never be special... never have my own name etc.
I fully agree with this option as I dont see a major issue with it.
All the vets can go cry somewhere else. Just because you dont want newbies being a 'competition' in anyway...
IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR! YOU DON'T BUY YOUR WAY INTO EVE >>>YOU EARN YOUR WAY INTO EVE ....like we all did ! Don't speak for everyone man. Have you not heard of the character bazaar? Saying "we all earned it" is beyond idiotic. That's just as much p2w as this is. Your the idiot do you really think people know me by my real name ...were working with entities . You buy an entity that is a huge difference between buying skills. You buy a rap sheet and you have to live with the consequences...that's the eve i know ...
How is that a huge difference? THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE OTHER THAN THE BIRTHDATE OF THE CHARACTER. So you buy a character who was a previous corp thief, pirate, scammer or w/e... now what? your screwed with a character with a bad rep which you had nothing to do with. |
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
683
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:42:34 -
[382] - Quote
Excellent, this is a great idea.
Thanks CCP. |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Carpe Noctem. Pandemic Legion
2553
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:42:36 -
[383] - Quote
There already is pay-to-skip-levelling-up, it's called the character bazaar, so that horse left the barn a long time ago.
However, moving SP from one toon to another seems a bad idea, I will say I don't know why because agreeing with Ripard Teg on anything is abhorrent to me.
I am ok with re-allocating SP within a toon, with the diminishing returns approach suggested by CCP. Its re-allocating, not buying.
I am even more ok with making the new player experience more compelling and less an utter ballache, by giving subbed toons 10m SP to allocate as they see fit on day one. This reduces the initial SP grind ballache while not breaking overall SP progression to high SP toons. i.e. Lets be honest, it still takes about 80-85m SP and upwards of 4 years to fly most of the subcap stuff you want to fly well.
F
Would you like to know more?
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Kalaratiri
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
744
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:43:07 -
[384] - Quote
Not a fan of being able to sell SP on the open market.
However, I can see the use for a "remap" style item that allows you to pull SP out of unwanted skills you already have trained, and apply it to other skills on just your character.
She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.
This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. -á- CCP Falcon
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Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2023
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:43:14 -
[385] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:If I had the option to spend -ú20-30 to avoid those 70days to get into the ship I want to fly and make me want to play the game more, than I'd be happy to do it. Just curious, how do you want to pay for the Curse? I mean, you are going to lose that Curse a lot. Plex? Skins? Clothes? You want to add more money to that 20-30 in addition to the sub just to be able to fly your ship before you can earn the money to fly it? You certainly are the customer CCP needs. Just mindlessly throw money at something to make something "bad" go away.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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Viliana Ovaert
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
1
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:43:41 -
[386] - Quote
I like this idea. Especially where I am, at slightly over 20m SP. Unless I am misunderstanding, I can pick up one of these packets and gain 400k SP, which is what, a week of training? Corp comes out with new doctrine, but I would have to use meta weapons like a scrub? No prob, I could just pick up a packet or two and I can use the T2! Anything that increases versatility is a good thing. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1691
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:43:56 -
[387] - Quote
Aaaand they are at it again.. totally disconnected...
They rather add some micro-transaction crap and delete some possibilities than deliver something that makes the game more interesting and worth playing...
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2027
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:45:07 -
[388] - Quote
Hendrink Collie wrote:Querns wrote:Tado wrote:No thank you this is a terrible idea.
I have been playing this game since day one and for me this idea of yours will kill EVE for me. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume your motivation for playing Eve is to watch the SP number go up. I'd recommend Cookie Clicker as a more satisfying number incrementing simulator, personally. I don't know, I personally really like making the ship spinner counter go up. Good point. Eve also makes my laptop overheat less than cookie clicker does. :V
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Devin Wallace
Kavashikari
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:45:11 -
[389] - Quote
The overall concept is disturbing at a glance, seems more reasonable if you read the fine print, and here's what I understood:
If I had some time and a calculator, how much money would it actually cost to build a brand new character up from 0 SP to around 80 million SP ?
The Aurum fee for a Transneural Extraction Packet is going to be "analogous"? to the currently existing double-PLEX transfer fee. Does that mean it's actually going to cost 2 PLEX ?
At current market value, I believe 1 PLEX is equivalent to $20.00 So, let's assume that this fee is actually $40.00
To skill from 0 to 5 is going to take 10 fees 10x 40= $400.00 To skill from 5 to 50 is going to take 112 fees 112x 40= $4,480.00 To skill from 50 to 80 is going to take 150 fees 150x 40 = $6,000.00
So, some people think that trolls are going to "exploit" this system to create 2 day old bait characters That would cost anywhere from roughly $3,000 to $10,000, if the aurum fee is truly "analogous".
You know what I'm thinking right? People in EVE Online are literally so insane that they would already have gladly paid $10,000 to do what is described above, even though 3,000 would get you a nice tradehub undock camper toon. It will happen. Probably hundreds, if not thousands of times.
This game mechanic would potentially create millions of dollars for CCP.
The ONLY thing holding this ridiculous Pay2Win feature back, is that the skillpoints have to be currently existing on another character and cannot be purchased directly from aurum store. That creates a market cap on availability that would mean creating 80 million SP 1 day old characters is probably impossible.
If the aurum shop is selling the transneural skill extractor and transneural skill packets at a lower price, for the sake of arguing let's say 7 dollars, it's more available to less committed players, but why would CCP want to now be making only 500k-1 million dollars when they could have been making 5-10 million dollars ?
This is what everyone is thinking about.
Also, slippery slope, this would set a precedent for a pay2win culture in EVE that will ruin everything about EVE Online.
Please tell me my math and assumptions are blatantly wrong, I'm prone to delusions.
I hope I don't meet the worm that creates the holes, -ámust be immortal.
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2703
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:45:43 -
[390] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:There already is pay-to-skip-levelling-up, it's called the character bazaar, so that horse left the barn a long time ago. However, moving SP from one toon to another seems a bad idea, I will say I don't know why because agreeing with Ripard Teg on anything is abhorrent to me. I am ok with re-allocating SP within a toon, with the diminishing returns approach suggested by CCP. Its re-allocating, not buying. I am even more ok with making the new player experience more compelling and less an utter ballache, by giving subbed toons 10m SP to allocate as they see fit on day one. This reduces the initial SP grind ballache while not breaking overall SP progression to high SP toons. i.e. Lets be honest, it still takes about 80-85m SP and upwards of 4 years to fly most of the subcap stuff you want to fly well. F It's bad because selling SP for isk, in any arbitrary amount, in any arbitrary package removes hard choices from the game. I like hard choices. I like playing games with hard choices.
Today you can buy a character, true. But that is a character crafted by another, with it's own flaws and skills not made to tailor for each individual. And you pay a market rate for them - some combinations of SP are worth more than others depending on the meta. Creating such characters, choosing to buy characters that are imperfect in one way or another represents hard choices made by either the buyer or the seller, and this is good. |
|
Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:46:03 -
[391] - Quote
This is the first post I have ever felt compelled to make. I am a member of the silent majority that plays the game and not the forum. I am a new character in eve terms and would benefit most from this and I despise everything about this idea.
if I have a vote I VOTE NO! NEVER! CEASE AND DESIST.
If you do this I will feel compelled to terminate my commitment to paying for eve via subscription and cease all involvement in this game. Why? Because in my mind this is CCP cashing out with no holes bared, nothing sacred left and with no regard to the most core game mechanic that kept legions of eve players including myself active... the one mechanic to not be undermined that eve ever had.
This is a tipping point in which it seems CCP for what ever reason feels they can now toy with the golden goose that has kept hundreds of thousands of players committed to financing this game by training their toons with total relentless devotion.
Why did so many players do this including myself up until this proposed change? because time was an ineffable element in eve that you could never get back if you did not use it and there was no way to cheat time on a single character you were training. You could always buy a toon or train alts but if you wanted to experience something real and unique in eve first hand and did not want a shortcut of buying another players toon you had to invest time into doing it through the skill training system. You could train alts but they too must adhere to the principle of time that must be invested to obtain any skill training completions.
CCP has already leaned on this pillar of eve in multitraining on the same account and encouraging character trading and these aspects are violations but they do not bring the house of cards crumbling into dust as the bedrock principle of all characters remained intact in that you could never get more skill on a single toon without paying for that skill with time through the training que.
Time is the fire in which we burn.
If you do this CCP you will have a lot of time to think about why so many players simply stopped paying you and they may not be kind enough to give you any warning post to stop your current plan before you commit to it.
They will simply just stop paying you.
|
Monasucks
BLACK SQUADRON. RAZOR Alliance
149
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:46:25 -
[392] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:Captain Africa wrote:Tzu Wu wrote:Captain Africa wrote:Skinzee wrote:All the people moaning and complaining about the idea are people that already have 50-100+ million skill points...
Yes, you've spent your fair share of time training your skills to be where they are but this is NOT pay to win...
My character has 2.2million SP and am currently training core skills and want to fly a curse as its my favorite ship..
Current training time left to fly 'efficiently' - 70d 11h 21mn...
That is effectively 2.5m SP (roughly).
If I had the option to spend -ú20-30 to avoid those 70days to get into the ship I want to fly and make me want to play the game more, than I'd be happy to do it.
What issue do you see of a character being 'boosted' to 5m or even 10m skillpoints etc? I imagine it wont be cheap getting millions of skillpoints doing it this way either.
I was tempted by character bazaar and buying my own character but that character would never be 'mine'... it would never be special... never have my own name etc.
I fully agree with this option as I dont see a major issue with it.
All the vets can go cry somewhere else. Just because you dont want newbies being a 'competition' in anyway...
IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR! YOU DON'T BUY YOUR WAY INTO EVE >>>YOU EARN YOUR WAY INTO EVE ....like we all did ! Don't speak for everyone man. Have you not heard of the character bazaar? Saying "we all earned it" is beyond idiotic. That's just as much p2w as this is. Your the idiot do you really think people know me by my real name ...were working with entities . You buy an entity that is a huge difference between buying skills. You buy a rap sheet and you have to live with the consequences...that's the eve i know ... How is that a huge difference? THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE OTHER THAN THE BIRTHDATE OF THE CHARACTER. So you buy a character who was a previous corp thief, pirate, scammer or w/e... now what? your screwed with a character with a bad rep which you had nothing to do with.
If you buy something used - you're risk it comes with scars and some not so nice corners.. Thats a difference.
And everybody in game will know that this character is bought, everyone in corp etc. this makes the char bazar legit. you have to stand for what you have done and life with the risks ( bad standing and so on )
Can I haz you're stuff?
[i][b]A good worker is a live worker. Free to live - and work! A bad worker is a dead worker; and vice versa. Don't be a bad worker; bad workers are slaves, and dead. Payday for good workers has been postponed indefinitely. Pa
|
Tzu Wu
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:46:40 -
[393] - Quote
Tado wrote:No thank you this is a terrible idea.
I have been playing this game since day one and for me this idea of yours will kill EVE for me.
You bittervets really need to get over yourselves.You've been playing since day 1 and want to hold that "elite" status until the server finally shuts down? I say that because it seems bittervets would rather the game day then CCP make any changes that might effect their "elite" status. |
Felo Maxun
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
116
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:46:42 -
[394] - Quote
"We hope that because this feature is modeled from the Character Bazaar, a long-standing and well-established feature, we are already pointed in a good direction."
This feature is not "modeled from the Character Bazaar" not in the slightest.
There is basically only one thing in eve that cant be bought.... and you want to put it up for sale.
This is a sad day. |
Jaime Wulfe
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:46:42 -
[395] - Quote
Nope.
Eve is about learning his **** and be patient. Ruin it. go on you dumbos. |
Neville Smit
Metro Trucking and Trade Ad-Astra
47
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:47:20 -
[396] - Quote
My first reaction to the dev blog was: "Interesting - this could give novice players more flexibility in developing their characters for different specializations. That might help with retention of new players."
But then I thought further about it, and decided that all the potential downsides greatly outweigh any benefits.
The proposed mechanics will make ISK far more important than SP. Since I can buy as much ISK as I want (using PLEX), then the amount of SP on a new character would depend mostly on how much disposable cash I am willing to spend. Yes, there's diminishing returns in the model, but no matter how you look at it, this is pay2win.
The proposed mechanics diminish the value of early character development. In fact, it makes a character more or less irrelevant - it simply becomes a vessel into which one pours SP, not an asset in game that one must carefully and thoughtfully nurture and develop. I'm not a serious role-player, but I do like that Neville Smit has had to make some commitments to developing certain skills, in order to unlock new capabilities in the game. That was an enjoyable part of EVE gameplay for me - and those kind of decisions largely go away if all I have to do is buy packets and stuff batches of unallocated SP into my body. In fact, it means I can make stupid skill selection choices faster than ever before, with fewer consequences.
Others have posted examples of how the proposed mechanics could be farmed and abused, so I won't repeat them here.
So, while my initial reaction was somewhat positive, upon reflection I've decided that I'm not a fan.
-1 on this idea.
I am an unapologetic fan of EVE Online. My blog: http://nevillesmit.com/ - My Twitter: https://twitter.com/NevilleSmit
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Tzu Wu
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:47:30 -
[397] - Quote
Felo Maxun wrote:"We hope that because this feature is modeled from the Character Bazaar, a long-standing and well-established feature, we are already pointed in a good direction."
This feature is not "modeled from the Character Bazaar" not in the slightest.
There is basically only one thing in eve that cant be bought.... and you want to put it up for sale.
This is a sad day.
If you don't consider the character bazaar as buying isk or even a new identity, you're either blind or just in denial. |
Kilian Katar
Tenth Company
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:47:35 -
[398] - Quote
OH OH OH and lest we forget, you wouldn't multiple training queues to train up a vast number of gank alts, 1 day old characters in t2 fitted catalysts..... YEA you go CCP |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2031
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:47:50 -
[399] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: As someone else already said, CCP's move to make the game "more accessible" have been smashing successes so for.
Naivety is a bad thing for a business.
[...] Sure, but the burden of proof is on the person who says "X happened, therefore the fact that Y also happened shows a direct relationship." Correlation is evidence (or perhaps more accurately an analysis of evidence, but semantics). Evidence that can be used to support a conclusion of causation. Ignoring that evidence with a platitude of "correlation is not causation" is foolish. The general public lifted "correlation is not causation" from scientific literature, most notably the "debate" on climate change. Yet, in the broad scientific community, correlation is used as evidence of causation in tens of thousands of papers across every quantifiable subject imaginable. Correlation alone does not prove causation, but it can be and is used as part of a set of proofs for causation. Evidence alone is not sufficient. It has to be shown to directly affect the causation. Observing PCU count drop isn't even that great as evidence, because PCU itself is only tenuously related to subscriber count. Every argument or thesis starts off with nothing but a scrap of evidence or observation. Nascent ideas are not discarded out of hand because they haven't been completely proven yet. Especially if there is some evidence for them. My own view is that driving eve too far into the "accessible" category may result in depriving the game of unique aspects - choices with consequences. From where I stand, the drive to make sov more accessible (looking at you sov wands & ceptors) has directly led to a great many individuals and entities out right abandoning the game entirely. This isn't some PCU count bullshit. F*ck PCU. This is about long-term players and community organizations preferring (figurative) death to living with these "ease of accessibility" changes. Selling SP for isk, in any arbitrary amount, in any arbitrary package removes hard choices from the game. I like hard choices. I like playing games with hard choices. Today you can buy a character, true. But that is a character crafted by another, with it's own flaws and skills not made to tailor for each individual. And you pay a market rate for them - some combinations of SP are worth more than others depending on the meta. Creating such characters, choosing to buy characters that are imperfect in one way or another represents hard choices made by either the buyer or the seller, and this is good.If I didn't want hard choices, I'd be playing candy crush or DudeBroShooter 2015 October Edition. Except no one on the internet actually performs the research. They proclaim "X is correlated with Y, therefore X causes Y" and are done. What's worse, is that people believe them.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Duffyman
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:47:54 -
[400] - Quote
Hi,
not meaning to take sides, but what is the difference between this and the Character Bazaar, in terms of P2W?
edit: just saw PotatoOverdose's post and he makes good points. Still I think it's pretty much the same thing... |
|
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
430
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:48:02 -
[401] - Quote
One reason why the Character Bazaar and the SP booster plan are critically different: Intel.
Right now, with the way that skills work, you can generally get a rough idea of what the character might be capable of based on their age and corp history. If they're 5 years old, but their corp history is dotted with NPC corps taking up half the time, and their killboards don't show any activity during those times, you can generally guess that they only have about 2.5 years'-worth of SP despite being five years old. Additionally, you can gauge how well they might be able to fight based on their corp history, as somebody who has been in and out of the game is going to probably be less-skilled than someone with less age, but more "dedication" / "consecutive play."
If you see a char that's a year old and had been sold on the Bazaar, you still see that the char has about a year's-worth of SP and what skills they have (based on the Bazaar listing).
Looking at available information, you can make a reasonable guess at what sort of skills and abilities a pilot has.
With SP packs, that goes out the window.
Before, when you saw a month-old NPC char on the battlefield, you knew that they were a month-old char and could estimate their skills based on that. Now, you'll see that month-old char, and instead of the question being "are they a newbie or a vet laying a trap?" you'll have to add "If it's a vet, how much SP have they boosted?"
The same goes for year-old chars. For five-year-old chars. Even for ten-year-old chars, because you have no way of knowing if they took SP out and got rid of it or used it for other skills.
Where before you had an imperfect way to make an imperfect guess at a character's capabilities (something that takes a bit of skill and sleuthing to do well), you're now left with absolutely nothing. No amount of game knowledge is going to give you an idea about what those pilots are capable of until you actually engage. It removes an element of planning and thought without giving anything back in its place.
Planning a trip to Thera? Check out http://eve-scout.com/ for a list of the current connections.
Once you've made your choice, join the EvE-Scout channel and request a scout to make sure your connection is clear!
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TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
337
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:48:11 -
[402] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Aaaand they are at it again.. totally disconnected...
They rather add some micro-transaction crap and delete some possibilities than deliver something that makes the game more interesting and worth playing...
Yoohoo!, do you all in here like the people adding this crap to this thread. PLEASE tell us WHY!
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
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Miao Sajuuk
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:48:15 -
[403] - Quote
Not too bad, an alternative way to trade character.
|
Alladir
Alladarium
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:48:35 -
[404] - Quote
At least reddit is filled with open minded ppl who weight constructive pros and cons, makes you wonder how many alts are in this thread. |
PMolkenthin
Interstellar Manufacturing of Gravity Aided Yields
22
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:48:44 -
[405] - Quote
It is my opinion that this is ****. |
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
685
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:49:16 -
[406] - Quote
And it's great because no one can say it makes EvE Pay to win because according to the hive mind, skill points don't define success, player ability does.
This will just give those of us who started later the ability to play now. |
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:49:22 -
[407] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:I have a question for ALL people that say this is a bad idea...
--- WHAT EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON YOU AS A PILOT IF THIS WOULD ACTUALLY GO LIVE? ---
There is already an option to buy 0-200m SP characters... Character Bazaar - (Thats Pay2Win if you look at it that way)
Would love someone to actually give me a valid answer to this question.
As far as I can see, there is none.
Doing this does NOT effect 'vet' pilots in anyway, other than you assuming a pilot has less skillpoints than he actually does because of its birthdate and then being blown apart because he has T2 guns at 5days old.
Doing this does NOT mean that I can boost my characters SP so that I can being the richest person in EvE just because I bought SP.
Doing this does not effect other pilots ability to play the game any less or more than it does now. (other than training for a link character - Which I could go and do right now)
I WANT TO BE ABLE TO SPEND BILLIONS OF ISK ON MY OWN CHARACTER, WITH MY OWN NAME AND HISTORY OF THAT CHARACTER IS FULLY KNOWN TO ME RATHER THAN BUYING A 2ND HAND 'ALT' CHARACTER OR CORP THEIF OR W/E. |
Thalen Draganos
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:49:28 -
[408] - Quote
I'm not a fan of this idea as a whole, BUT, I have been saying for years now that I wished there was a way to get rid of skills I don't want and reallocate them to skills I do want. With that in mind, is that possible? To use an extractor to remove the skill points I don't want with a Transneural Skill Extractor and turn that in to Transneural Skill Packets that I can then turn in to free xp and reallocate? Having 170mil sp on this character alone, I would absolutely love to shuffle that around or use them on my other characters. That alone would be a dream come true. |
Jason Atavuli
Boere Kavaliers RUCA Emperor
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:49:37 -
[409] - Quote
No, I'm really not feeling this
CCP if you push this through anyway regardless of popular opinion, could you at least make that monument in Jita destructible please?
.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2031
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:49:42 -
[410] - Quote
Felo Maxun wrote:"We hope that because this feature is modeled from the Character Bazaar, a long-standing and well-established feature, we are already pointed in a good direction."
This feature is not "modeled from the Character Bazaar" not in the slightest.
There is basically only one thing in eve that cant be bought.... and you want to put it up for sale.
This is a sad day. You may wish to re-examine what the character bazaar does, because it isn't what you think it is.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
|
Dun Bar
Inner Shadow Did he say Jump
27
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:49:52 -
[411] - Quote
NO NO NO NO NO, we are not blizzard. this will put the final nail in the eve is dying coffin. Please for love of god, no |
Tzu Wu
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:49:53 -
[412] - Quote
Duffyman wrote:Hi,
not meaning to take sides, but what is the difference between this and the Character Bazaar, in terms of P2W?
Almost zero difference aside from being able to apply the SP to a new character. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2031
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:50:31 -
[413] - Quote
Duffyman wrote:Hi,
not meaning to take sides, but what is the difference between this and the Character Bazaar, in terms of P2W? There is absolutely none. Don't let anyone try and tell you differently.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Nataliya Barre
Immortal Nomads Indecent Exposure Alliance
56
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:50:35 -
[414] - Quote
Just NO |
Bazoobo Gwabo
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:50:46 -
[415] - Quote
Seems like a lot of the older veterans are against this but then again I see the same reaction in other games. Not really seeing much in the way of response from newer players who have not had the 12+ years invested in this game and are trying to play catch up.
So it is ok then to drop 30 billion isk (~ 25 PLEX ~$500) to get a character off the bazaar? I would rather have the opportunity to add points to skill up this character rather than switching to a character in which I have no history. Years ago I bought a character in another game and felt like the whole time I was in another person's body and always felt weird about playing a character I did not invest my time and effort into developing. Told myself I would never do that again.
Even as it is now I would like to participate in null sec or pvp on this character, but do not want to waste time in a no implant clone. So for now I sit in my nice high-sec close doing mainly PVE stuff. In a long training queue, +5 implants vs no implants can mean the difference in a month of training.
I welcome the idea of being able to spend a few coins to inject some skill points.
o/
"As cannons overcharged with double cracks, so they doubly redoubled strokes upon the foe." Captain, Macbeth Act 1 Scene 2
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3504
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:50:54 -
[416] - Quote
Tank Murdock Jnr wrote:Hey...wait a minute.
Does this mean I'll be able to sell Mining 2, and all the other total carebear crap I was born with? Hmmm.
Yes. You could do that. Once you buy the appropriate in game items. Either for ISK or even RL money (via Aurum).
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Kilian Katar
Tenth Company
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:50:57 -
[417] - Quote
The character bazaar is like manufacturing and the market, its a risk when you train a character to sell, markets change, eve changes, one minute black ops pilots could be like gold, then all of a sudden gold is worthless and copper is what you want, and thus boosters are worth lots, etc, SP is SP only risk is where you put it after you brought it. |
HaoSs Ragnarok
EVE-RO Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:50:58 -
[418] - Quote
Bad idea. Never ever implement this..
on the other hand .move SP from 1 skill to another. yes. BUT ON THE SAME CHARACTER ! |
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH Circle-Of-Two
118
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:51:02 -
[419] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:Captain Africa wrote:Tzu Wu wrote:Captain Africa wrote:Skinzee wrote:All the people moaning and complaining about the idea are people that already have 50-100+ million skill points...
Yes, you've spent your fair share of time training your skills to be where they are but this is NOT pay to win...
My character has 2.2million SP and am currently training core skills and want to fly a curse as its my favorite ship..
Current training time left to fly 'efficiently' - 70d 11h 21mn...
That is effectively 2.5m SP (roughly).
If I had the option to spend -ú20-30 to avoid those 70days to get into the ship I want to fly and make me want to play the game more, than I'd be happy to do it.
What issue do you see of a character being 'boosted' to 5m or even 10m skillpoints etc? I imagine it wont be cheap getting millions of skillpoints doing it this way either.
I was tempted by character bazaar and buying my own character but that character would never be 'mine'... it would never be special... never have my own name etc.
I fully agree with this option as I dont see a major issue with it.
All the vets can go cry somewhere else. Just because you dont want newbies being a 'competition' in anyway...
IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR! YOU DON'T BUY YOUR WAY INTO EVE >>>YOU EARN YOUR WAY INTO EVE ....like we all did ! Don't speak for everyone man. Have you not heard of the character bazaar? Saying "we all earned it" is beyond idiotic. That's just as much p2w as this is. Your the idiot do you really think people know me by my real name ...were working with entities . You buy an entity that is a huge difference between buying skills. You buy a rap sheet and you have to live with the consequences...that's the eve i know ... How is that a huge difference? THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE OTHER THAN THE BIRTHDATE OF THE CHARACTER. So you buy a character who was a previous corp thief, pirate, scammer or w/e... now what? your screwed with a character with a bad rep which you had nothing to do with.
Yup ..and trust me people will react to that character and not to who you are ...and that is the whole point. Look buddy ...if been where you are. now. Trust me time is a currency as much as money. One day when you look back and did the time you will appreciate what im saying. To go and buy a ton of sp and within a few days you have this god of a pilot....you just wont give a ****.. |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2703
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:51:58 -
[420] - Quote
Querns wrote: Except no one on the internet actually performs the research. They proclaim "X is correlated with Y, therefore X causes Y" and are done. What's worse, is that people believe them.
That doesn't mean we have to stoop to the standards of the lowest common denominator of the internet, does it? |
|
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
337
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:52:04 -
[421] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:Skinzee wrote:I have a question for ALL people that say this is a bad idea...
--- WHAT EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON YOU AS A PILOT IF THIS WOULD ACTUALLY GO LIVE? ---
There is already an option to buy 0-200m SP characters... Character Bazaar - (Thats Pay2Win if you look at it that way)
Would love someone to actually give me a valid answer to this question. As far as I can see, there is none.
I do... Bitter vets would have more people around them that could fly high end doctrines like they do. Just by roaming off their own SP.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
|
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3211
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:52:28 -
[422] - Quote
I have 158 days left, it has been fun CCP. I will make the most of them.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
|
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5450
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:52:32 -
[423] - Quote
OMG! OMG! OMG!
Major, huge change.
Though I think the idea of diminishing returns is great, and necessary, I think the >80m penalty is way too severe. Would suggest at least 100k, or the system won't be used by those with the SP in the first place, i.e. rookies may benefit from buying, but the market by far is "worked" by veterans that have the excess characters / skilpoints. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1691
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:52:42 -
[424] - Quote
Oh looks, there are even ~4 people who are in favour of it and post this two times per page.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Kilian Katar
Tenth Company
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:52:43 -
[425] - Quote
Thalen Draganos wrote:I'm not a fan of this idea as a whole, BUT, I have been saying for years now that I wished there was a way to get rid of skills I don't want and reallocate them to skills I do want. With that in mind, is that possible? To use an extractor to remove the skill points I don't want with a Transneural Skill Extractor and turn that in to Transneural Skill Packets that I can then turn in to free xp and reallocate? Having 170mil sp on this character alone, I would absolutely love to shuffle that around or use them on my other characters. That alone would be a dream come true.
On current proposal this would mean like say you had 5m sp you wanted to reallocate, because of the total sp you have you would be lucky to get like 50k back lol. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3504
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:52:48 -
[426] - Quote
Thalen Draganos wrote:I'm not a fan of this idea as a whole, BUT, I have been saying for years now that I wished there was a way to get rid of skills I don't want and reallocate them to skills I do want. With that in mind, is that possible? To use an extractor to remove the skill points I don't want with a Transneural Skill Extractor and turn that in to Transneural Skill Packets that I can then turn in to free xp and reallocate? Having 170mil sp on this character alone, I would absolutely love to shuffle that around or use them on my other characters. That alone would be a dream come true.
Maybe you should read the Dev Blog....
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2031
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:52:55 -
[427] - Quote
Thalen Draganos wrote:I'm not a fan of this idea as a whole, BUT, I have been saying for years now that I wished there was a way to get rid of skills I don't want and reallocate them to skills I do want. With that in mind, is that possible? To use an extractor to remove the skill points I don't want with a Transneural Skill Extractor and turn that in to Transneural Skill Packets that I can then turn in to free xp and reallocate? Having 170mil sp on this character alone, I would absolutely love to shuffle that around or use them on my other characters. That alone would be a dream come true. It's a bit limited, but essentially, yes. You'll have to pay a cost in either Aurum or ISK (by buying them from the secondary market) for the privilege, but you can absolutely do this.
The limitation is that you can't suckle away skills that are a prerequisite to other skills. Like, if you wanted to remove Gallente Frigate, but had Gallente Destroyer trained, you couldn't remove Gallente Frigate without first eliminating Gallente Destroyer. This is mostly so you can't put yourself in a potentially weird situation with respect to prerequisite skills.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Monasucks
BLACK SQUADRON. RAZOR Alliance
149
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:53:01 -
[428] - Quote
Jason Atavuli wrote:No, I'm really not feeling this
CCP if you push this through anyway regardless of popular opinion, could you at least make that monument in Jita destructible please?
This
sign
Can I haz you're stuff?
[i][b]A good worker is a live worker. Free to live - and work! A bad worker is a dead worker; and vice versa. Don't be a bad worker; bad workers are slaves, and dead. Payday for good workers has been postponed indefinitely. Pa
|
Barakach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
211
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:53:41 -
[429] - Quote
I can appreciate arguments both ways. On one hand there are new players who feel it takes too long to get up and running, and the overwhelming feeling that skills should be non-transferable.
At the same time, we can freely trade characters is which the same thing. Free skills for a price, but you just can't choose.
I can think of a few things.
1) Make sure it costs more to get these special untrained skills. They have a lot of benefit over purchasing a character for skills. 2) Possibly make the benefit cap much lower and not just diminishing returns but does not work after X SP. Most new players may be perfectly happy with getting to 15m sp quickly, then they can work for the ISK and purchase a character. Leave large SP transfers to char transfers. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1691
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:54:01 -
[430] - Quote
Another important question: Will it be ok to ransom for skillpoints?
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1265
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:54:21 -
[431] - Quote
I have removed a disrespectful and offensive post.
We understand this is a hot topic with all kinds of perspectives, but please follow our rules if you're going to contribute to the discussion. Your perspective will be much better received if you prepare a response with maturity and tact.
Quote:2. Be respectful toward others at all times.
The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.
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A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.
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Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
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Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
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The use of profanity is prohibited on the EVE Online forums. This includes the partial masking of letters using numbers or alternate symbols, and any attempts at bypassing the profanity filter.
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Spam is defined as the repetitive posting of the same topic or nonsensical post that has no substance and is often designed to annoy other forum users. This can include the words GÇ£firstGÇ¥, GÇ£go back to (insert other game name)GÇ¥ and other such posts that contribute no value to forum discussion. Spamming also includes the posting of ASCII art within a forum post, or the practice of GÇ£thread necromancyGÇ¥ which involved bumping of old threads for no justifiable reason.
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New members of the EVE Online community are encouraged to use, but are not restricted to the EVE New Citizens Q&A forum. This forum is specifically designed to provide a platform for those who are new to the EVE community to ask questions and learn more about EVE. More experienced forum users are encouraged to participate by assisting new players with helpful and courteous responses. All flaming, trolling and posts of a derogatory nature will be deleted, and will be considered a severe breach of the forum rules.
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ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:55:21 -
[432] - Quote
Winter Archipelago wrote:One reason why the Character Bazaar and the SP booster plan are critically different: Intel.
Right now, with the way that skills work, you can generally get a rough idea of what the character might be capable of based on their age and corp history. If they're 5 years old, but their corp history is dotted with NPC corps taking up half the time, and their killboards don't show any activity during those times, you can generally guess that they only have about 2.5 years'-worth of SP despite being five years old. Additionally, you can gauge how well they might be able to fight based on their corp history, as somebody who has been in and out of the game is going to probably be less-skilled than someone with less age, but more "dedication" / "consecutive play."
If you see a char that's a year old and had been sold on the Bazaar, you still see that the char has about a year's-worth of SP and what skills they have (based on the Bazaar listing).
Looking at available information, you can make a reasonable guess at what sort of skills and abilities a pilot has.
With SP packs, that goes out the window.
Before, when you saw a month-old NPC char on the battlefield, you knew that they were a month-old char and could estimate their skills based on that. Now, you'll see that month-old char, and instead of the question being "are they a newbie or a vet laying a trap?" you'll have to add "If it's a vet, how much SP have they boosted?"
The same goes for year-old chars. For five-year-old chars. Even for ten-year-old chars, because you have no way of knowing if they took SP out and got rid of it or used it for other skills.
Where before you had an imperfect way to make an imperfect guess at a character's capabilities (something that takes a bit of skill and sleuthing to do well), you're now left with absolutely nothing. No amount of game knowledge is going to give you an idea about what those pilots are capable of until you actually engage. It removes an element of planning and thought without giving anything back in its place.
Your argument is purely based on PvP...
Yes, you are currently able to 'assume' a character has roughly so many SP by there age but if this was real life, you wouldnt ask someone for there DOB before you fight or asked if they have had martial arts training would you? No.. its irrelavent and just a luxury that you have.
People keep saying that this game is about 'mastering' and 'playing the game etc'...
This argument is irrelevant... People say you can play the game from the start and SP are irrelavent... You can PvP with -1m sp etc etc... But your saying just because you wouldnt know how many skillpoints a player has roughly, its unfair?
I could buy my girlfriend a 10year character now, tell her to fly a capital ship in a level 5 mission and she wouldnt have a clue what to do...
SP ISNT EVERYTHING... EXPERIENCE IS ALSO REQUIRED. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3504
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:55:24 -
[433] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Another important question: Will it me ok to ransom for skillpoints?
Of course, it is an in game item....
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Carpe Noctem. Pandemic Legion
2553
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:55:32 -
[434] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote: It's bad because selling SP for isk, in any arbitrary amount, in any arbitrary package removes hard choices from the game. I like hard choices. I like playing games with hard choices.
Today you can buy a character, true. But that is a character crafted by another, with it's own flaws and skills not made to tailor for each individual. And you pay a market rate for them - some combinations of SP are worth more than others depending on the meta. Creating such characters, choosing to buy characters that are imperfect in one way or another represents hard choices made by either the buyer or the seller, and this is good.
I'm not sure thats a meaningful differentiator though. If I want a link alt, I buy a link alt. If I want a dread alt, I buy a dread alt. If I want a super alt, I buy a super alt. etc. I will get what I pay for, and its irrelevant to that core purchase decision if they also have (or don't have) heavy assault missile or astrometric skills etc?
F
Would you like to know more?
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Thalen Draganos
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:55:34 -
[435] - Quote
Querns wrote:Thalen Draganos wrote:I'm not a fan of this idea as a whole, BUT, I have been saying for years now that I wished there was a way to get rid of skills I don't want and reallocate them to skills I do want. With that in mind, is that possible? To use an extractor to remove the skill points I don't want with a Transneural Skill Extractor and turn that in to Transneural Skill Packets that I can then turn in to free xp and reallocate? Having 170mil sp on this character alone, I would absolutely love to shuffle that around or use them on my other characters. That alone would be a dream come true. It's a bit limited, but essentially, yes. You'll have to pay a cost in either Aurum or ISK (by buying them from the secondary market) for the privilege, but you can absolutely do this. The limitation is that you can't suckle away skills that are a prerequisite to other skills. Like, if you wanted to remove Gallente Frigate, but had Gallente Destroyer trained, you couldn't remove Gallente Frigate without first eliminating Gallente Destroyer. This is mostly so you can't put yourself in a potentially weird situation with respect to prerequisite skills. Thank you. |
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
686
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:56:01 -
[436] - Quote
CCP something to think about regarding the extractors and packets:
Please balance the extractors so it's a little bit more worth it to use it over a skill packet?
Like if extracting a skill ends up resulting in the same yield of SP compared to a skill packet, then what will be the point of a skill extractor other than a noob trap?
I've got a tengu pilot with like 3 million SP tied up in BC's I'll never use. |
Madgic
Nexis. Usurper.
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:56:13 -
[437] - Quote
Querns wrote:Madgic wrote:When did Eve become Facebook?
Payers don't have to play the game to earn isk, and soon they wont even have to log on to max out their skills.
No No No NO Worst Idea ever please Don't candy Crush my game. Ah, yes, the onerous burden of logging in. I have a 300 day skill queue and I can donate PLEX to my account to keep it alive from without. Clearly, the fact that I need to log in to manage it about twice a year is what made my SP have meaning.
Surely you are exactly what is causing the downturn in player base then, Why even sub, if your not going to play?, |
Missy Bunnz
Team Pizza Good at this Game
27
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:56:59 -
[438] - Quote
Just No. |
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
500
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:57:04 -
[439] - Quote
Whilst on the theme of forcing the poor to sell their organs to pay their bills could I also buy other peoples killmails, corp history and standings please?
Fear God and Thread Nought
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2032
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:57:26 -
[440] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote: Except no one on the internet actually performs the research. They proclaim "X is correlated with Y, therefore X causes Y" and are done. What's worse, is that people believe them.
That doesn't mean we have to stoop to the standards of the lowest common denominator of the internet, does it? Frankly, it does.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Malinger
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:59:42 -
[441] - Quote
No don't do this, not in any form or way. Stop now. |
Skilo
Higher Than Everest The-Culture
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:00:09 -
[442] - Quote
I've been playing this game since 2003
I'm a proud "owner" of a multi million skill point char who took me 12 years to get
To imagine someone can now just join eve and buy it of with real money will make me unsub all my accounts
I've been with CCP for the good times and the bad times but for this i will not!!!!
Hey i can stop playing for 1 year and if i decide to return get the euros i saved and buy all the skill points i've "lost"
IF i decide to return ofc
Want to take the risk CCP?
I'm sure i'm not the only one thinking the same way |
Fool Nalelmir
LEX University Limited Expectations
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:00:34 -
[443] - Quote
Really, I mean really....
Ok I can get behind a lot of things you guys try but this is just bad. Sure this game is hard to get into sure as a new player you have to take your lumps and such. But you know part of the good thing is that when you say I am a 80sp pilot or what ever it is a point of pride. I kind of feel like the last 3 years of paying for my skill training and the waiting and drooling and wishing to get to the point I am at with the ships I can fly will be a waste. I mean really whats the point. I don't know if I will unsub my accounts but if this is the way it is gonna be then maybe people are rite it will be the end at least for me. This whole everything for Aurum thing is getting way out of hand. It's getting more and more like some freemium phone app crap.
If you want to get and retain new people that's great I am all for it but this make eve easier thing can only go so far. I don't play WOW and play EVE because it is not an easy game it requires you to think and work and suck it up when you lose. If I wanted an easy button there are plenty of other choices out there.
Try this on for size,
1) we need new blood advertise. I almost never see anything about eve anywhere. Heck do a search for MMOs and eve only shows up on a fraction of the info that's out there and the game is what 12 years old. Hell make an add and put it on HULU or something. But get the word out there. I mean it is like we expect to keep the lights on by word of mouth.
2) Make more game styles in game and don't half ass it. You had the rite idea with Dust/Legion but the wrong approach. Remember back in the day the whole walk around the station thing. Expand on that. If kids want to FPS let them and let us really interact. Let them fight on planets and stations and what ever and do their version of PVE and let that stuff then create new products and items for the indy kids to build sell and move. Or even better remember this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45mlVuLs_Nw&list=PLF614A7A6461E61E1&index=19 I mean really that would have been cool getting out of the pod and having some real fun. Eve is a massive universe and you can only "balance" one game style for so long before you need to add new things other than paint jobs guys.
3) Fix the PVE that exists in eve from the same thing every time wack-a-mole joke that it is to something with more options. A day one player should be able to slowly progress threw higher and higher levels of missions, exploration and such. Missions there should be a lot more of them and more than the 4 levels for your mission runner types. And higher levels should be more and more group oriented. Sure use lowsec to add to the risk reward but don't close it all off so the only way to earn anything is to do it solo. Exploration is a good mechanic and should be built on adding more things to find. You really should have a team that does nothing more than create new missions, Anoms, Sites and what ever for players to work threw. I mean for real every major update should include new stuff for these players. This does not have to be new items or ships every time just new missions, Anoms and sites make the PVE grow and change I can't even imagine how many players we have lost because if they did the same level 4 mission or anom again they were going to rip their of eyes out.
4) PVP, new players should day one get some message, intro aura class what ever to let them know that New Eden is unforgiving place to live and get them excited about it. In Call of Duty the kids know they are progressing they know there KDR and get a idea of wow I did that. Beyond that CCP you should really push the whole EVE is hard thing not as a bad thing but as a do you have what it takes thing. Make a new player feel that pride that they are a tougher bunch then other MMO players.
p.s I plan to abuse the hell out of this if you go threw with it because I can.
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May Arethusa
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
79
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:00:36 -
[444] - Quote
While an interesting attempt at a compromise, it's still a terrible idea.
Skillpoint farming is quite literally, the most risk-free form of isk generation you could suggest, and wouldn't be that difficult. As has been pointed out already, you're looking at an 8-day cycle per character. There is absolutely no way anyone can interfere with this process either, perhaps if skill loss were still a thing this might gain a little more traction.
That's ignoring the obvious "X is nerfed, liquidate and remap to Y" process most low-SP PVP characters will go through. There's no longer any desire to push a character beyond a specific point under this system. You simply liquidate superfluous SP for profit, remap each time your FotM is nerfed, and spend a day or two at most training back the lost SP.
Nice try, but no thanks. |
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH Circle-Of-Two
121
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:01:15 -
[445] - Quote
TheSmokingHertog wrote:Skinzee wrote:Skinzee wrote:I have a question for ALL people that say this is a bad idea...
--- WHAT EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON YOU AS A PILOT IF THIS WOULD ACTUALLY GO LIVE? ---
There is already an option to buy 0-200m SP characters... Character Bazaar - (Thats Pay2Win if you look at it that way)
Would love someone to actually give me a valid answer to this question. As far as I can see, there is none. I do... Bitter vets would have more people around them that could fly high end doctrines like they do. Just by roaming off their own SP.
Lemme throw this right back at you ...I had to wait 6 years to get my character trained up to be 145 mil sp do you think it fair that you would be able to achieve that by just buying sp and whalla ? Infact just **** off...**** that im outta here |
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:01:22 -
[446] - Quote
Malinger wrote:No don't do this, not in any form or way. Stop now.
Explain why? Give a reason...
All the people saying NO and no-one is giving a reason WHY!
|
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
823
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:01:25 -
[447] - Quote
So, if CCP instigates this, will Character Trading be removed? This is supposed to be the replacement for the Character Bazaar right? So why would we need Character Trading anymore? Otherwise, this will lead to a great new form of Character trading where we can easily build specced toons for a specific function, and then sell them. Depending on the final costs, which will probably be rather high, I think we can look at toons selling for a bit more. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2032
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:01:37 -
[448] - Quote
Madgic wrote:Querns wrote:Madgic wrote:When did Eve become Facebook?
Payers don't have to play the game to earn isk, and soon they wont even have to log on to max out their skills.
No No No NO Worst Idea ever please Don't candy Crush my game. Ah, yes, the onerous burden of logging in. I have a 300 day skill queue and I can donate PLEX to my account to keep it alive from without. Clearly, the fact that I need to log in to manage it about twice a year is what made my SP have meaning. Surely you are exactly what is causing the downturn in player base then, Why even sub, if your not going to play?, It was just a hypothetical example. In truth, while I do have a 300 day skill queue, I log in fairly regularly. I even got a few kills recently during the Cloud Ring campaign.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Carper
Carper's Love
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:01:45 -
[449] - Quote
For me, the idea of something like this was always going to be (at least a part of) the future of what EVE needed to become in order to survive & remain relevant.
However, to say you have to tread carefully in these waters could be the understatement of the century, there is little else in EVE more sacred to people than their SP.
But, done conservatively, & being heavily pre-nerfed - could help to introduce something as incendiary as this in a manner that would be acceptable to most people.
My particular version of this idea would be something like the following:
1. Upon pod-kill of any pod, piloting any kind of ship, a *tiny* amount of (related ship) SP would be lost. (Yes, SP loss on pod kill, maybe as little as a few hours of training).
2. The pod would leave a wreck which could be salvaged and this fragment of SP could be recovered and sold on the market for ISK.
3. Any character could then buy this (previously trained) SP on the market - for ISK - with one crucial restriction, only a small set amount of SP could be applied to a single character over a certain period of time.
(Optional):
4. The 'market purchasing player character SP amount restriction' should not apply in instances where the player character has the killing blow on the pod kill-mail.
However, it would be crucial that such a (no. 4) change would need to be done as not to be exploitable, with bans being handed down to those who mass farm alt's & the like for SP. |
Iosue
Empyrean Guard Tactical Narcotics Team
291
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:01:47 -
[450] - Quote
Duffyman wrote:Hi,
not meaning to take sides, but what is the difference between this and the Character Bazaar, in terms of P2W?
edit: just saw PotatoOverdose's post and he makes good points. Still I think it's pretty much the same thing...
in the char bazaar you have to purchase another character altogether. that means spending the time to find the right one, competing with other that may want the same one, accepting some knowing you'll have to do more work on them, living with a potentially stupid name or bad past, using up a character slot on an active account.
this proposal allows you to add unallocated SP onto an existing account, bypassing all of the potentially negatives mentioned above. you get your SP to use how you want, with the only downside being that you may have to spend a little more isk to get the same amount of SP as someone with less overall SP.
as it stands right now, you can buy SP in the form of another char, but it will not be a char of your own creation. in order to do this, you have to put time into the game, i.e. sub an account and wait. the proposed is along the line of the Burger King model; your way, right away.
whether its a good thing is for you to decide. |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17148
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:01:48 -
[451] - Quote
I've already gone over why this is a bad idea multiple times.
If this is the way we're going, then so be it, I guess.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
686
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:02:01 -
[452] - Quote
Also here's another thing this will help address:
When you're joining the game you can only fly the very bottom ships. Frigates. Now your character immediately begins training, and you ask people for advice, "what do I do?" They respond back with something like, pick a ship y ou want to fly and train for it! Go download EvE mon and plot your skill training queue so you can hop into that Widow you say you want to fly in!.
OK kind sir, thank you very much for pointing me in the right direction. I will tailor my skill queue so I may get into that widow!.
6 months goes by and now I can get into this widow.
But you know what? This ship sucks. I don't want to be in the widow. I can't believe I just spent all this time training to get into a widow and now that I'm here, it's not even enjoyable for me.
This will alleviate that dilemma. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17148
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:02:50 -
[453] - Quote
Skilo wrote:I've been playing this game since 2003
Hey i can stop playing for 1 year and if i decide to return get the euros i saved and buy all the skill points i've "lost"
I wish I could warn you not to give them ideas like that.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2032
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:02:56 -
[454] - Quote
May Arethusa wrote:While an interesting attempt at a compromise, it's still a terrible idea.
Skillpoint farming is quite literally, the most risk-free form of isk generation you could suggest, and wouldn't be that difficult. As has been pointed out already, you're looking at an 8-day cycle per character. There is absolutely no way anyone can interfere with this process either, perhaps if skill loss were still a thing this might gain a little more traction.
That's ignoring the obvious "X is nerfed, liquidate and remap to Y" process most low-SP PVP characters will go through. There's no longer any desire to push a character beyond a specific point under this system. You simply liquidate superfluous SP for profit, remap each time your FotM is nerfed, and spend a day or two at most training back the lost SP.
Nice try, but no thanks. You can already do this. I've been doing this for years by selling in-demand characters on the Character Bazaar, trained specifically for the purpose of sale. Bastard farms are not particularly new.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Alladir
Alladarium
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:03:36 -
[455] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:So, if CCP instigates this, will Character Trading be removed? This is supposed to be the replacement for the Character Bazaar right? So why would we need Character Trading anymore? Otherwise, this will lead to a great new form of Character trading where we can easily build specced toons for a specific function, and then sell them. Depending on the final costs, which will probably be rather high, I think we can look at toons selling for a bit more.
Someone on reddit ran approx math that buying char is twice as cheap when it comes to isk/sp cost compared to new system so no, they will not replace market. |
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
686
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:03:51 -
[456] - Quote
Skilo wrote:I've been playing this game since 2003
I'm a proud "owner" of a multi million skill point char who took me 12 years to get
To imagine someone can now just join eve and buy it of with real money will make me unsub all my accounts
I've been with CCP for the good times and the bad times but for this i will not!!!!
Hey i can stop playing for 1 year and if i decide to return get the euros i saved and buy all the skill points i've "lost"
IF i decide to return ofc
Want to take the risk CCP?
I'm sure i'm not the only one thinking the same way
Why will it make you want to unsub?
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2032
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:03:55 -
[457] - Quote
Captain Africa wrote:TheSmokingHertog wrote:Skinzee wrote:Skinzee wrote:I have a question for ALL people that say this is a bad idea...
--- WHAT EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON YOU AS A PILOT IF THIS WOULD ACTUALLY GO LIVE? ---
There is already an option to buy 0-200m SP characters... Character Bazaar - (Thats Pay2Win if you look at it that way)
Would love someone to actually give me a valid answer to this question. As far as I can see, there is none. I do... Bitter vets would have more people around them that could fly high end doctrines like they do. Just by roaming off their own SP. Lemme throw this right back at you ...I had to wait 6 years to get my character trained up to be 145 mil sp do you think it fair that you would be able to achieve that by just buying sp and whalla ? Given that the achievement's barrier to entry is merely time and the payment of a monthly subscription, yes, I think it's totally fair. Your accomplishment is fairly meaningless; anyone can do it if they just wait.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Anise Tig'res
Duchy Ministry of Slave Affairs
37
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:03:55 -
[458] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Also here's another thing this will help address:
When you're joining the game you can only fly the very bottom ships. Frigates. Now your character immediately begins training, and you ask people for advice, "what do I do?" They respond back with something like, pick a ship y ou want to fly and train for it! Go download EvE mon and plot your skill training queue so you can hop into that Widow you say you want to fly in!.
OK kind sir, thank you very much for pointing me in the right direction. I will tailor my skill queue so I may get into that widow!.
6 months goes by and now I can get into this widow.
But you know what? This ship sucks. I don't want to be in the widow. I can't believe I just spent all this time training to get into a widow and now that I'm here, it's not even enjoyable for me.
This will alleviate that dilemma.
And it'll do so for what probably ends up a similar price to a subscription.
Good job CCP! |
Zajia Arkaral
Shadows of Earth inPanic
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:04:17 -
[459] - Quote
I dont want to see this ingame, stop fuckin your old community. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2032
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:04:42 -
[460] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:So, if CCP instigates this, will Character Trading be removed? This is supposed to be the replacement for the Character Bazaar right? So why would we need Character Trading anymore? Otherwise, this will lead to a great new form of Character trading where we can easily build specced toons for a specific function, and then sell them. Depending on the final costs, which will probably be rather high, I think we can look at toons selling for a bit more. The dev blog says, at the bottom, that the Character Bazaar will remain.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
|
Kilian Katar
Tenth Company
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:05:17 -
[461] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Also here's another thing this will help address:
When you're joining the game you can only fly the very bottom ships. Frigates. Now your character immediately begins training, and you ask people for advice, "what do I do?" They respond back with something like, pick a ship y ou want to fly and train for it! Go download EvE mon and plot your skill training queue so you can hop into that Widow you say you want to fly in!.
OK kind sir, thank you very much for pointing me in the right direction. I will tailor my skill queue so I may get into that widow!.
6 months goes by and now I can get into this widow.
But you know what? This ship sucks. I don't want to be in the widow. I can't believe I just spent all this time training to get into a widow and now that I'm here, it's not even enjoyable for me.
This will alleviate that dilemma.
No it will change the dilemma, instead it will be omg this ship sucks I can't believe I paid $$$$$$$$$ to get this thing fk this game *quits* |
Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1297
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:05:18 -
[462] - Quote
Massive no.
What's the point of the skill system at all once this is in? Might as well drop a bomb on the whole thing and let us fly whatever. And this scheme wont benefit a single newbie as the price of these boosters will be skyrocketed by people who can afford to pay any price. |
Nataliya Barre
Immortal Nomads Indecent Exposure Alliance
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:05:19 -
[463] - Quote
Boot.ini problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msXRFJ2ar_E
Could you do the same again? PLEASE! |
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:06:18 -
[464] - Quote
Captain Africa wrote:TheSmokingHertog wrote:Skinzee wrote:Skinzee wrote:I have a question for ALL people that say this is a bad idea...
--- WHAT EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON YOU AS A PILOT IF THIS WOULD ACTUALLY GO LIVE? ---
There is already an option to buy 0-200m SP characters... Character Bazaar - (Thats Pay2Win if you look at it that way)
Would love someone to actually give me a valid answer to this question. As far as I can see, there is none. I do... Bitter vets would have more people around them that could fly high end doctrines like they do. Just by roaming off their own SP. Lemme throw this right back at you ...I had to wait 6 years to get my character trained up to be 145 mil sp do you think it fair that you would be able to achieve that by just buying sp and whalla ?
Honest answer? Yes. Why not?
Because your mad that this option wasn't available when you first started?
What difference would it make to you if I spent -ú100's to boost my character to your level? I can fly the same ship as you? Boo Hoo...
|
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2705
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:07:02 -
[465] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: It's bad because selling SP for isk, in any arbitrary amount, in any arbitrary package removes hard choices from the game. I like hard choices. I like playing games with hard choices.
Today you can buy a character, true. But that is a character crafted by another, with it's own flaws and skills not made to tailor for each individual. And you pay a market rate for them - some combinations of SP are worth more than others depending on the meta. Creating such characters, choosing to buy characters that are imperfect in one way or another represents hard choices made by either the buyer or the seller, and this is good.
I'm not sure thats a meaningful differentiator though. If I want a link alt, I buy a link alt. If I want a dread alt, I buy a dread alt. If I want a super alt, I buy a super alt. etc. I will get what I pay for, and its irrelevant to that core purchase decision if they also have (or don't have) heavy assault missile or astrometric skills etc? F If I want a skirmish link alt, I buy a link alt. But maybe I found a REALLY good link alt with the perfect name but he's also a perfect shield link alt, a perfect ewar link alt, and a perfect armor link alt. Maybe, I don't want all of that, I just want the skirmish links, but the shield link skills are so much better than the rest of the characters on the market that I'm willing to front the bill for all of the extra sp because I only like part of the character and the character name.
Maybe I found a perfect leviathan character, but his name is xX420DogPorkerXXNoScope360Xx and I'm a pretentious prick that can't stand to own such a character.
Maybe I found a perfect Avatar alt, but he's associated with a known scammer and his corp history is shady as hell.
Maybe I want an Aeon alt but can't afford it. So I buy a decent thanatos/aeon pilot that I grow into the character that I want, with a bit of unused thanatos sp on the side.
The point is this - from the moment we name a character, whether it is a main or an alt to be sold, we make choices that irrevocably affect said character and our own game play experience. This proposed system removes the significance of those choices, assuming you apply enough isk. I don't like this. I like hard choices, the harder the better. That's what makes EvE, EvE. |
Nergart
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:07:17 -
[466] - Quote
....so how long before eve is free to play?
i only ask so i can stop paying CCP any money?
as i see it this will likely be the intro to micro transactions.
pay this to improve your character, 1 step away from premium ammunition pay this to do more damage.
you know what just do it
us vets are really not bothered anymore, since the eve community has always been described as a passionate one people who are so disillusioned with the way eve is going that they just don't care and are here hoping things will change for the better hopes which seem to be growing dimmer by the day.
As for the CSM i feel this should be disbanded as no longer required/fit for purpose. As demonstrated with previous changes, the CSM council seems to be either a bunch of yes men not willing to stand up for the players they are attempting to represent or worse attempting to change the game in accordance to their own wishes.
the opinion of the CSM reflected here is either people who are jumping on the bandwagon like politicians running to the press saying "oh i was the sole voice of opposition to this" or they are clearly just being ignored and therefore not required.
played eve since 2009, i think its time to move on.
Eve does not have a learning curve, its a learning cliff. Either learn to fly on the way down or its going to be a hard landing
|
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1165
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:07:24 -
[467] - Quote
Skilo wrote:I've been playing this game since 2003
I'm a proud "owner" of a multi million skill point char who took me 12 years to get
To imagine someone can now just join eve and buy it of with real money will make me unsub all my accounts\ they already could numbnuts your sp count doesn't make you elite |
Moraguth
Ranger Corp Vae. Victis.
139
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:07:56 -
[468] - Quote
Viliana Ovaert wrote:I like this idea. Especially where I am, at slightly over 20m SP. Unless I am misunderstanding, I can pick up one of these packets and gain 400k SP, which is what, a week of training? Corp comes out with new doctrine, but I would have to use meta weapons like a scrub? No prob, I could just pick up a packet or two and I can use the T2! Anything that increases versatility is a good thing.
This is another reason why the change is a bad idea. Switching metas for an entire alliance should be more of a decision than just "how much isk is this gonna cost us?"
One reason older players are more valuable because of their immediate versatility. There should be a risk involved with wanting to change how your alliance (or your corp, or just you and your friends) want to do things. There should be more to consider than just having the isk available to buy everyone the extra SP they need to fly the new meta with max skills in however long it takes you to get to Jita/Amarr and buy the SP to put in your head.
I have a tendency to go on and on and on, so I'll just stop there for now, but there is plenty more to say on the subject.
I got a Feature Added!
Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn". It is "uh-bad-in"
dictionary.com/abaddon
|
Samillian
Angry Mustellid Decayed Orbit
1044
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:08:03 -
[469] - Quote
I cannot believe that you have even considered this, you would be better to just turn the servers off and walk away than debase and devalue your game like this.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
|
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3083
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:08:08 -
[470] - Quote
For people quitting in protest I remind them that Operation Magic School Bus does accept donations to help out the new players. Yes, this is a 'can I haz' post but it is one where the material will be put to good use, not just lining a wallet or hanger. Contract to me if you wish to donate.
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
|
|
Nasro Drags
Zonk Squad CCLP
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:08:29 -
[471] - Quote
"Eve is real" - my ass
It's things like that just makes it impossible for me to recommend this game. You just make it next to impossible to feel attached to your characters.
Trading a character is bad enough IMO, but it comes with the history, so the player behind the character is different, but the character has had a story, it was sort of real for that character.
Drifters has been an interesting addition now you go the exact opposite way with this.
At times, Eve's development is just like a hydra with 7 heads all pulling in different directions. I still like the vision that seems to underly it all... but damn do those heads work hard at stretching the vision... |
Hashtag Rare Pepe
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:08:51 -
[472] - Quote
Make it happen! A lot of newblood to be expected if this goes through. The sooner the better. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3510
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:08:52 -
[473] - Quote
Malinger wrote:No don't do this, not in any form or way. Stop now.
So we should get rid of the character bazaar then too.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1165
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:08:55 -
[474] - Quote
MY SP ELITENESS
(i have more sp than 90% of the posters in this thread) |
Dave Stark
7546
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:08:55 -
[475] - Quote
Dear CCP.
you have made some monumentally stupid decisions. you have made some absolutely fantastic changes.
then you have done this.
this is pretty "yeah, it's alright" but it certainly isn't wrong. you already have the character bazzar, so people calling this "pay to win" or "it will kill the game" are ignorant at best, and hypocrites at worst.
i'm fine with this announcement, there's no reason not to be. |
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1289
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:09:02 -
[476] - Quote
Holy f*ck... didn't think I'd see this day.
If anything there needs to be a hard cap above which you're not longer able to inject skillpoints, period. Because if you think diminishing returns are going to prevent people from sinking trillions of ISK into skillpoints, you are sadly mistaken.
But overall this is just a bad idea... god this is such a bad idea.
My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!
My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums
|
Nyjil Lizaru
Aideron Robotics
40
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:09:09 -
[477] - Quote
Suggested changes: -A hard-cap per character: only allow a total of 5-10 million SP (for example) in or out for the character total, ever. -Alternately: a yearly limit of 1-3 million (again, amount is just an idea) -Limit it to within the same account
I like it because I have skills that I trained that were nerfed almost as soon as I trained them - I'd love to nuke them, but not sure about a limitless trading of SP, even with the diminishing returns.
Nyjil's corollary to Malcanis' Law: -á "Any attempt by CCP to smooth the learning curve of EVE Online will be carried out via the addition of extra factors and 'features' such that there is a net increase in complexity."
|
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:09:11 -
[478] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:For people quitting in protest I remind them that Operation Magic School Bus does accept donations to help out the new players. Yes, this is a 'can I haz' post but it is one where the material will be put to good use, not just lining a wallet or hanger. Contract to me if you wish to donate.
m
Can I Haz Leftovers? Plx? <3 |
Skilo
Higher Than Everest The-Culture
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:09:24 -
[479] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Skilo wrote:I've been playing this game since 2003
Hey i can stop playing for 1 year and if i decide to return get the euros i saved and buy all the skill points i've "lost"
I wish I could warn you not to give them ideas like that.
The point is that it goes against everyhting CCP always said about Pay to Win
This is PAY TO WIN
You pay you get skills you get better ships and guns you win
PAY TO WIN |
Alladir
Alladarium
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:09:47 -
[480] - Quote
Zajia Arkaral wrote:I dont want to see this ingame, stop fuckin your old community. If a change will bring 2 new players who will stay in game for long for each veteran leaving they are still gonna make a profit. Thats how things go. That's what Bioware is doing favoring simplier rpg for new casuals sacrificing old players who were with them since begining. That's what Blizzard does too. It may be a bitter truth but it works and thats what matters. Old veterans are good and stuff but they are bleeding playerbase since many of them have to stop playing due to reasons completly unrelated to game or game design process. So why make a game that keeps a vet playerbase that will disappear with enough time when you can change it to attract new playerbase that will stay and compensate the bleeding? Most ppl complain now but let's be honest it'll die out soon and only a fraction of them will really leave. |
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3510
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:10:26 -
[481] - Quote
Skilo wrote:I've been playing this game since 2003
I'm a proud "owner" of a multi million skill point char who took me 12 years to get
To imagine someone can now just join eve and buy it of with real money will make me unsub all my accounts
I've been with CCP for the good times and the bad times but for this i will not!!!!
Hey i can stop playing for 1 year and if i decide to return get the euros i saved and buy all the skill points i've "lost"
IF i decide to return ofc
Want to take the risk CCP?
I'm sure i'm not the only one thinking the same way
That ship sailed long ago. With enough money somebody could buy a character with over a hundred million SP. Even more.
You should have quit years ago, to be quite honest.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Styphon the Black
Forced Euthanasia Soviet-Union
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:10:50 -
[482] - Quote
I loved everything about this suggested feature!! It is something I have been screaming wanting for the last year and getting squashed at every forum post that I made suggesting such a thing.
Thank you!!
The only thing that I don't really love is the diminishing returns. Also I hope that 1 SP = 1 SP and it isn't selling a diminished value of skill points. So if you pull 2 million skill points out of Toon "A" and sell those, the buyer can only receive 500k SP in toon "B" or some other crap.
Also will the original character bazaar still be able to still be used? I certainly hope so.
My main issue with trading characters in the first place was being stuck with the a terrible name. |
ISK IRON BANK
I Want ISK Corp
36
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:10:58 -
[483] - Quote
Buy SP using plex
Buy char from Forum using plex
Not sure why everyone is getting excited over this. |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
338
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:11:07 -
[484] - Quote
Skilo wrote:Malcanis wrote:Skilo wrote:I've been playing this game since 2003
Hey i can stop playing for 1 year and if i decide to return get the euros i saved and buy all the skill points i've "lost"
I wish I could warn you not to give them ideas like that. The point is that it goes against everyhting CCP always said about Pay to Win This is PAY TO WIN You pay you get skills you get better ships and guns you win PAY TO WIN
The skillpool in EVE would not change in size, how is this pay to win?
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2034
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:11:25 -
[485] - Quote
Nergart wrote:....so how long before eve is free to play?
i only ask so i can stop paying CCP any money?
Eve is already free to play. I have only ever directly given CCP money once, for my initial 30 days of subscription time. After that, I have kept all my accounts going strictly from in-game isk.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Wribbley
Molotov Holdings Limited Molotov Coalition
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:11:32 -
[486] - Quote
Y'know, I see a lot of hate directed towards the old "bittervet" playerbase.
I actually see it from the other standpoint. I like to think of myself as rich, (ingame) and I have very little to spend my isk on - apart from investing it to try and earn more isk.
I would abuse the hell out of it, just because I could (10% return not an issue tbh).
The only way I can see this working is setting a permanent hard cap (eg 20/25 mil). As in when you hit that, no more injecting sp.
This would allow new players who could afford it (through whatever payment method) a chance to get a not insignificant boost, nor I would expect a massive gamebreaking one. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3510
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:11:53 -
[487] - Quote
Skilo wrote:Malcanis wrote:Skilo wrote:I've been playing this game since 2003
Hey i can stop playing for 1 year and if i decide to return get the euros i saved and buy all the skill points i've "lost"
I wish I could warn you not to give them ideas like that. The point is that it goes against everyhting CCP always said about Pay to Win This is PAY TO WIN You pay you get skills you get better ships and guns you win PAY TO WIN
Character bazaar dude....been there for years. Maybe you should, you know...play the game and read the forums vs. just paying to have your character earn SP.
Just out of curiosity...have you ever actually undocked?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
159Pinky
Under Heavy Fire Mordus Angels
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:12:51 -
[488] - Quote
So, why on earth have you even spent time on this? The forums are filled with questions and grievances from players about stuff (tm) that needs fixing. Yet you guys come up with something we didn't ask for, nor need.
Moreover you'll make the ****** up eve economy even more ****** up.
Really CCP: get your priorities straightened and then get back to us with something the player asked.... |
TRAVS
Quam Singulari Industry
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:13:12 -
[489] - Quote
F**king idiots |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
338
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:13:12 -
[490] - Quote
Samillian wrote:I cannot believe that you have even considered this, you would be better to just turn the servers off and walk away than debase and devalue your game like this.
Please leave, if we loose this attitude in EVE, we have a much better sandbox left, and more people who come in will stick around, that would be awesome.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
|
|
Esme Moya Mencken
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:13:22 -
[491] - Quote
/me opens up Steam for the first time in a month.
Rather than rage-post, I'll just wait for the storm to hopefully blow over and for CCP to publish their actual intentions. |
Monasucks
BLACK SQUADRON. RAZOR Alliance
151
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:13:38 -
[492] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:Captain Africa wrote:TheSmokingHertog wrote:Skinzee wrote:Skinzee wrote:I have a question for ALL people that say this is a bad idea...
--- WHAT EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON YOU AS A PILOT IF THIS WOULD ACTUALLY GO LIVE? ---
There is already an option to buy 0-200m SP characters... Character Bazaar - (Thats Pay2Win if you look at it that way)
Would love someone to actually give me a valid answer to this question. As far as I can see, there is none. I do... Bitter vets would have more people around them that could fly high end doctrines like they do. Just by roaming off their own SP. Lemme throw this right back at you ...I had to wait 6 years to get my character trained up to be 145 mil sp do you think it fair that you would be able to achieve that by just buying sp and whalla ? Honest answer? Yes. Why not?Because your mad that this option wasn't available when you first started? What difference would it make to you if I spent -ú100's to boost my character to your level? I can fly the same ship as you? Boo Hoo...
200Gé¼ for 145 SP, which are 6 years and several billion isk - so let's say ~ 1500Gé¼ in subscription alone + at least 10.000Gé¼ in ISK (if done the math converted back over PLEX price to RL money )
So spend ~12000Gé¼ not 100.
Thats a big difference because EVE is build by patiences and time and the social structure that develops in your corp and alliances etc.
You SIR are still in an n00b corp. Guess if you have tomorrow that 145m SP ? I and many other I know would not except you in that corps, for the next few years.
Can I haz you're stuff?
[i][b]A good worker is a live worker. Free to live - and work! A bad worker is a dead worker; and vice versa. Don't be a bad worker; bad workers are slaves, and dead. Payday for good workers has been postponed indefinitely. Pa
|
Electra Magnetic
Echelon Research SpaceMonkey's Alliance
36
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:13:42 -
[493] - Quote
I don't think the diminishing returns is a good idea. An old player should equally be able to acquire SP and apply them towards something like super carrier or titan training as a young player. Why should old players have to suffer because they did not specialize into the biggest ships in the game early?
You are still keeping the character bazaar where people can buy their way into the hundreds of millions of skillpoints, so why have diminishing returns at all? Its not a balanced or fair approach. If I want to spend money to get skillpoints, I should be able to spend money to get skillpoints equally from all sources.
If you are going to make an in-game item for people to buy to apply skillpoints then do it equally for everyone. Have a set standard where 10 dollars buys 100k SP or something and leave it at that.
And for the love of god do something about plex trading. A 20% increase in price within 2 months represents the economy of EVE going down the toilet and doing things in game to earn isk like ratting and mining being a worthless waste of time compared to dropping a few dollars to gain superiority over other players. This game is turning into pay to win at every turn and its disgusting.
|
Kavoro Pel
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
55
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:13:45 -
[494] - Quote
Nope nope nope |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17150
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:14:21 -
[495] - Quote
ISK IRON BANK wrote:Buy SP using plex
Buy char from Forum using plex
Not sure why everyone is getting excited over this.
Pay for a nice dinner when I take your sister out for a date
Pay your sister to just go straight to my hotel room
Not sure why you'd get excited over this
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3510
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:14:25 -
[496] - Quote
ISK IRON BANK wrote:Buy SP using plex
Buy char from Forum using plex
Not sure why everyone is getting excited over this.
Which is why I'm perplexed too.
And this isn't even just buying SP. Somebody has to drain their SP first to put it on the market.
Will people have SP farms? Maybe but why be so dumb and have multiple accounts just to earn ISK. Just go buy PLEX and sell them in game for ISK.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Skilo
Higher Than Everest The-Culture
20
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Posted - 2015.10.15 18:14:39 -
[497] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Skilo wrote:I've been playing this game since 2003
I'm a proud "owner" of a multi million skill point char who took me 12 years to get
To imagine someone can now just join eve and buy it of with real money will make me unsub all my accounts
I've been with CCP for the good times and the bad times but for this i will not!!!!
Hey i can stop playing for 1 year and if i decide to return get the euros i saved and buy all the skill points i've "lost"
IF i decide to return ofc
Want to take the risk CCP?
I'm sure i'm not the only one thinking the same way That ship sailed long ago. With enough money somebody could buy a character with over a hundred million SP. Even more. You should have quit years ago, to be quite honest.
Still that char had to be trained for all those years.
And why should have i quit years ago? did i killed you recently?
Oh i know. i have a diferent opinion then yourself or CCP?
My point again is that CCP always said this would never hapen ....PAY TO WIN ... LOL |
Kilian Katar
Tenth Company
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:15:01 -
[498] - Quote
ISK IRON BANK wrote:Buy SP using plex
Buy char from Forum using plex
Not sure why everyone is getting excited over this.
Characters take time to train, their skills and how they are spread or dedicated defines their worth, they sometimes come with a background, there is risk involved for those that train to sell (the demand may vanish)
SP is SP and in its raw form will have a constant worth. 25m SP on the bazaar can vary wildly in price, in SP form it wouldn't |
FZappa
INDUSTRIA BATTLETECH Short Bus Syndicate
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:15:04 -
[499] - Quote
beside this reeking of pay to win (which can already be done today by buying a character off the bazaar) this messes up our ability to asses a character risk level by looking at its age.
for example , that lone 3 day old character in system with me is not much of a risk.. suddenly , he decloaks in a bomber , points me , and lights a covops cyno for his blops buddies
in other words , this can be exploited to game breaking levels by either players with deep wallets or vast sums of isk handy . |
J Livermore
Flaming Sideburns Social Club
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:15:15 -
[500] - Quote
I'm not going to pretend that I would what this would do the game in big picture, but I know that when this goes online I'll start looking other games to play. |
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Vogels
Original Sinners Tactical Narcotics Team
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:15:32 -
[501] - Quote
If anything this positively enforces sticking with your character. Corp history and reputation is more important then overall SP in this game, and more people will want to keep the former if they can adjust the ladder.
The diminishing returns is interesting, but I believe it should be more about **how much SP in a timeframe** that gets dimished, not based off your total SP.
For instance - Someone who has 80m sp, but only wants to change 5m SP every few months should not feel the same isk sink as somebody who has 80m sp, but ones to trade out 40m of it in a week.
With this type of system, long term gameplay is rewarded, those wanting instant gratification or pay-to-win are penalized. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3511
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:16:03 -
[502] - Quote
Skilo wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Skilo wrote:I've been playing this game since 2003
I'm a proud "owner" of a multi million skill point char who took me 12 years to get
To imagine someone can now just join eve and buy it of with real money will make me unsub all my accounts
I've been with CCP for the good times and the bad times but for this i will not!!!!
Hey i can stop playing for 1 year and if i decide to return get the euros i saved and buy all the skill points i've "lost"
IF i decide to return ofc
Want to take the risk CCP?
I'm sure i'm not the only one thinking the same way That ship sailed long ago. With enough money somebody could buy a character with over a hundred million SP. Even more. You should have quit years ago, to be quite honest. Still that char had to be trained for all those years. And why should have i quit years ago? did i killed you recently? Oh i know. i have a diferent opinion then yourself or CCP? My point again is that CCP always said this would never hapen ....PAY TO WIN ... LOL
So what, those SP had to be trained too. The only way for SP to get on the market is if somebody trains them, then drains them (for a cost) then puts them on the market.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Monasucks
BLACK SQUADRON. RAZOR Alliance
151
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:16:04 -
[503] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:ISK IRON BANK wrote:Buy SP using plex
Buy char from Forum using plex
Not sure why everyone is getting excited over this. Pay for a nice dinner when I take your sister out for a date Pay your sister to just go straight to my hotel room Not sure why you'd get excited over this
Bwahaha Malc
so true
Can I haz you're stuff?
[i][b]A good worker is a live worker. Free to live - and work! A bad worker is a dead worker; and vice versa. Don't be a bad worker; bad workers are slaves, and dead. Payday for good workers has been postponed indefinitely. Pa
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Sean Crees
Sean's Safe Haven
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:16:10 -
[504] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img] The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside. Please also read this reminder on our forum rules ~ ISD Decoy
LOVE IT!
Don't let the vocal minority get you down. Check the reddit page: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3ov6p8/dev_blog_exploring_the_character_bazaar_skill/
The top upvoted comment with 240 points and climbing with very constructive feedback fully supports this idea. |
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH Circle-Of-Two
121
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:16:26 -
[505] - Quote
Querns wrote:Captain Africa wrote:TheSmokingHertog wrote:Skinzee wrote:Skinzee wrote:I have a question for ALL people that say this is a bad idea...
--- WHAT EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON YOU AS A PILOT IF THIS WOULD ACTUALLY GO LIVE? ---
There is already an option to buy 0-200m SP characters... Character Bazaar - (Thats Pay2Win if you look at it that way)
Would love someone to actually give me a valid answer to this question. As far as I can see, there is none. I do... Bitter vets would have more people around them that could fly high end doctrines like they do. Just by roaming off their own SP. Lemme throw this right back at you ...I had to wait 6 years to get my character trained up to be 145 mil sp do you think it fair that you would be able to achieve that by just buying sp and whalla ? Given that the achievement's barrier to entry is merely time and the payment of a monthly subscription, yes, I think it's totally fair. Your accomplishment is fairly meaningless; anyone can do it if they just wait.
You wouldn't be able to afford me ...you wanna know why because i have a history ...and associated with that sp. If i was just sitting in a station then sure I would agree with you.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3511
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:17:09 -
[506] - Quote
Kilian Katar wrote:ISK IRON BANK wrote:Buy SP using plex
Buy char from Forum using plex
Not sure why everyone is getting excited over this. Characters take time to train, their skills and how they are spread or dedicated defines their worth, they sometimes come with a background, there is risk involved for those that train to sell (the demand may vanish) SP is SP and in its raw form will have a constant worth. 25m SP on the bazaar can vary wildly in price, in SP form it wouldn't
The SP will not be created out of thin air. They have to be drained from an existing character who took the time to train those SP.
FFS, read the Dev Blog and engage the brain people.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Aivo Dresden
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
469
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:17:10 -
[507] - Quote
Such a bad idea. Can't stress how much I don't like it. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2035
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Posted - 2015.10.15 18:18:42 -
[508] - Quote
FZappa wrote:beside this reeking of pay to win (which can already be done today by buying a character off the bazaar) this messes up our ability to asses a character risk level by looking at its age. for example , that lone 3 day old character in system with me is not much of a risk.. suddenly , he decloaks in a bomber , points me , and lights a covops cyno for his blops buddies in other words , this can be exploited to game breaking levels by either players with deep wallets or vast sums of isk handy . I recommend adopting a Not Blue Shoot It policy.
Also, in my experience (on both sides of the fence,) if you wait to react until you've loaded the character info screen, you're probably already dead.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Nergart
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:19:07 -
[509] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:For people quitting in protest I remind them that Operation Magic School Bus does accept donations to help out the new players. Yes, this is a 'can I haz' post but it is one where the material will be put to good use, not just lining a wallet or hanger. Contract to me if you wish to donate.
m
what new players?
also this does kind of prove my point about the individuals being part of the CSM for their own gains
Eve does not have a learning curve, its a learning cliff. Either learn to fly on the way down or its going to be a hard landing
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Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
688
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:19:16 -
[510] - Quote
a guy I know asked me, "how's eve?"
Knowing he was possibly interested in joining the game to play it with me, and me being a completely honest person I had to immediately approach the situation with truth.
"it's fun, but I've had this guy subbed for 8 months now and I'm just now getting to the point where I will soon be able to properly fly only a small fraction of available ships with the proper skills."
I can't recommend the game to him and others because I know he wont be able to actually do things with me and be a fair contributor to my goals for almost a year.
I'm egotistical and narcissistic and #thebest and all, but even I can't lie to a friend and try tricking him into joining the game when I know full well that he will be disappointed with the options available to him.
At least now I'll be able to tell him, "join now and we can grind you isk for a month and be able to start buying skills to help you get to where I am and we can both fly around space dominating dudes together". |
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SebN
Hoplite Brigade
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:19:43 -
[511] - Quote
I never post on these forums but i feel compelled to in this case, i think that this fundamentally breaks the whole beauty of EVE, litterally pay money to buy skill points, whoever actually authorised this idea is so totally out of touch with the player base. |
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3083
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:20:16 -
[512] - Quote
Querns wrote:Nergart wrote:....so how long before eve is free to play?
i only ask so i can stop paying CCP any money?
Eve is already free to play. I have only ever directly given CCP money once, for my initial 30 days of subscription time. After that, I have kept all my accounts going strictly from in-game isk.
tsk, I expect better than that of you, Q
You know that any plex has been paid for by somebody so your claim of free actually is 'I have other people to pay for it'
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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Devin Wallace
Kavashikari
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:20:28 -
[513] - Quote
Tzu Wu wrote:Tado wrote:No thank you this is a terrible idea.
I have been playing this game since day one and for me this idea of yours will kill EVE for me. You bittervets really need to get over yourselves.You've been playing since day 1 and want to hold that "elite" status until the server finally shuts down? I say that because it seems bittervets would rather the game day then CCP make any changes that might effect their "elite" status.
I haven't been playing this for a complete 4 years quite yet, and I feel the same way as any 13 year bittervet.
I have personally attempted to train and influence at least 20 new players into making EVE part of their life. I have succeeded in only a handful of cases, because most humans simply do not have the long term resolve and commitment. I'm sure many can tell you the same story.
I played through a time when this game was still in it's most rugged and unpolished forms. No health meter on drones in the drone-bay. Ugly asymmetrical ship hulls. The NeoCom icons were colorful. There was a jukebox. Corps did not have the option of turning off friendly fire. The Venture did not exist. Cruisers were poorly balanced and bonuses on most ships didn't really make sense. I was scanning wormhole chains when probes had to be moved 1 at a time and I could only use 6 because of SP limitations I had. If you failed to update your clone, you suffered a substantial and painful loss of SP. I lost Minmatar Battleship 5, Minmatar Battlecruiser 5, and Gallente Battlecruiser 5 while scrambling to reach staging areas during the chaos of the Halloween War. I dodged gate-camps from almost every highsec mercenary group in New Eden from 2012-2013, scraping a living off level 3 missions. I was ganked twice in wspace while soloing sleepers with my old nanocane. I went through faction warfare with the Minmatar Militia. I drove my security status down to -5.2 with the first months of Brave Newbies and spent nearly 2 weeks in Great Wildlands, ratting it back up with a Hound, when security ticks were every 15 minutes, not every 5 minutes. Ancillary Shield Boosters did not exist. Ancillary Armor reppers did not exist. Interceptors were not immune to bubbles.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, I stuck with it through this game when it was far less hospitable to new players, and I earned every single skillpoint I have through trials of fire. I am PROUD to be a bittervet.
Giving new players even more shortcuts and easy way out...it makes me feel sick
I hope I don't meet the worm that creates the holes, -ámust be immortal.
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Kilian Katar
Tenth Company
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:21:53 -
[514] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Kilian Katar wrote:ISK IRON BANK wrote:Buy SP using plex
Buy char from Forum using plex
Not sure why everyone is getting excited over this. Characters take time to train, their skills and how they are spread or dedicated defines their worth, they sometimes come with a background, there is risk involved for those that train to sell (the demand may vanish) SP is SP and in its raw form will have a constant worth. 25m SP on the bazaar can vary wildly in price, in SP form it wouldn't The SP will not be created out of thin air. They have to be drained from an existing character who took the time to train those SP. FFS, read the Dev Blog and engage the brain people.
No **** sherlock, but when you extract that SP you can apply it anywhere so its worth is actually far more than when it is hard wired in some characters head. ALSO as an item in game, like plex it could be destroyed so CCP is not only allowing the destruction of money via plex, but also the destruction of skillpoints. (let alone the skill points that vanish into thin air when applied to characters not on the minimum threshhold) |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3511
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:23:03 -
[515] - Quote
SebN wrote:I never post on these forums but i feel compelled to in this case, i think that this fundamentally breaks the whole beauty of EVE, litterally pay money to buy skill points, whoever actually authorised this idea is so totally out of touch with the player base.
Really? And the character bazaar? That didn't break the beauty of EVE?
You do know how this works? I'm guessing you don't and are posting out of ignorance. To buy SP somebody has to drain theirs. SP are not being created out of thin air. Somebody had to have an active account and an active skill queue.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Niraia
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
353
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:23:08 -
[516] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:a guy I know asked me, "how's eve?"
Knowing he was possibly interested in joining the game to play it with me, and me being a completely honest person I had to immediately approach the situation with truth.
"it's fun, but I've had this guy subbed for 8 months now and I'm just now getting to the point where I will soon be able to properly fly only a small fraction of available ships with the proper skills."
I can't recommend the game to him and others because I know he wont be able to actually do things with me and be a fair contributor to my goals for almost a year.
I'm egotistical and narcissistic and #thebest and all, but even I can't lie to a friend and try tricking him into joining the game when I know full well that he will be disappointed with the options available to him.
At least now I'll be able to tell him, "join now and we can grind you isk for a month and be able to start buying skills to help you get to where I am and we can both fly around space dominating dudes together".
If you aren't having fun now, you probably won't have fun with lots of SP either. It's your attitude that leads to bullshit game design and stupid ideas like this. Thanks.
Niraia
EVE Online Hold'Em
|
William Hazard
Muthim Drama Sutra
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:23:25 -
[517] - Quote
- industry simplification - ugly and stupid new overview icone, hated by everyone on SiSi and you kept updated them - free jump clone everywhere - assets teleportation in citadel (WTF hauling ????)
And now...
Skill sales ???
Are you ******* ****** ? Your really want to kill Eve ?
Do that, and i won't play or pay for Eve anymore.
Stop making this game simpler & less interesting, more "like the others" at each new idea. You're absolutely destroying everything for which players were on Eve, and not elsewhere.
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TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
338
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:23:38 -
[518] - Quote
SebN wrote:I never post on these forums but i feel compelled to in this case, i think that this fundamentally breaks the whole beauty of EVE, litterally pay money to buy skill points, whoever actually authorised this idea is so totally out of touch with the player base.
"buy money to buy someone else his / her skillpoints"
Fixed that for you.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
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Fool Nalelmir
LEX University Limited Expectations
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:24:03 -
[519] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:a guy I know asked me, "how's eve?"
Knowing he was possibly interested in joining the game to play it with me, and me being a completely honest person I had to immediately approach the situation with truth.
"it's fun, but I've had this guy subbed for 8 months now and I'm just now getting to the point where I will soon be able to properly fly only a small fraction of available ships with the proper skills."
I can't recommend the game to him and others because I know he wont be able to actually do things with me and be a fair contributor to my goals for almost a year.
I'm egotistical and narcissistic and #thebest and all, but even I can't lie to a friend and try tricking him into joining the game when I know full well that he will be disappointed with the options available to him.
At least now I'll be able to tell him, "join now and we can grind you isk for a month and be able to start buying skills to help you get to where I am and we can both fly around space dominating dudes together".
Fair enough but there has got to be a better way that this. Lets be honest who is going to get the most from this it won't be your buddy or any other new player. They don't have the isk starting out to really afford it and who in their rite mind is going to dump hundreds of dollars to just try the game out.
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Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
431
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:24:10 -
[520] - Quote
This is on the right track I think. But unallocated SP sounds crazy. Why not one for one? I take my Missiles skills out of my head, package them, and sell them to a buyer. If you want to keep the diminishing returns part, the package only takes whole number values of skills. If I have Bombardment 3, with 76% of the way to 4, that 76% is lost. I'm selling Bombardment 3. Simplifies things a bit.
Screw the Aurum part. If you want to keep charging PLEX, use PLEX. Stop trying to make me use Aurum. I don't want it. |
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Mai Ling Ravencroft
Duragon Pioneer Group Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:24:13 -
[521] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:All the people moaning and complaining about the idea are people that already have 50-100+ million skill points...
Yes, you've spent your fair share of time training your skills to be where they are but this is NOT pay to win...
My character has 2.2million SP and am currently training core skills and want to fly a curse as its my favorite ship..
Current training time left to fly 'efficiently' - 70d 11h 21mn...
That is effectively 2.5m SP (roughly).
If I had the option to spend -ú20-30 to avoid those 70days to get into the ship I want to fly and make me want to play the game more, than I'd be happy to do it.
What issue do you see of a character being 'boosted' to 5m or even 10m skillpoints etc? I imagine it wont be cheap getting millions of skillpoints doing it this way either.
I was tempted by character bazaar and buying my own character but that character would never be 'mine'... it would never be special... never have my own name etc.
I fully agree with this option as I dont see a major issue with it.
All the vets can go cry somewhere else. Just because you dont want newbies being a 'competition' in anyway...
IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR!
What you fail to see is that, while you are training for that ship, you will be flying cheaper, similar ships, that while not as good are there for you to learn how to fly the nice shiney you are really after. Durring this time, you will game actual skills as a player, skills that you can't buy or train, but must be learned yourself as the player. No you are not likely going to be as good as you will end up being in your Curse, but when you get in that Curse, you will likely be a much better pilot because of it. Though if you "magically" were to hop in that Curse today, you'd likely loose it just as fast as any of the T1s you'll have to fly, but at a much steeper cost.
The time it takes to train, it is the time you have to learn to fly. If you learn how to fly a T1 solidly, then when you get your T2, you are going to be that much better.
I was going to post this sepperately, but your post was a great lead in to my thoughts on this. All too often, new players hear about the Character Bazaar and want to jump the gun and buy a pilot that can fly something special. As a member of Goonswarm, it is all to common, as we see our beloved noobs in Karmafleet doing this. So what happens, well just take a look at any of the KB sites and you will see, lots of pilots loosing ships they had no place flying. Capitals dieing in amazingly stupid ways, Faction BS and T2s with horrible fits, and the list goes on.
I don't think this is just a horrible idea cause I wanna watch you suffer as a noob. I think this is a horrible idea cause you will suffer as a noob, flying ships you have no idea how to fly. Loosing massive amounts of ISK that you can barely afford to make.
I have been a logistics pilot for many years, and the 3 months it took to earn my T2 logi ship was spent flying T1 logi, getting teased and harassed for being a scrub. Those 3 months though taught me alot of tactics, management and overall piloting skills that you can't train, but rather have to experience. Buying you way into that ship you want so bad is just going to make you even madder when you keep loosing them because you don't have the actual experience you will need touse them right.
This might seem biased, bitter or condescending but in all honesty, it is the simple truth. take your time learn the game and once you really are skilled, use the Char Bazaar to supplement your pilot roster with those 7 extra miners or a dedicated scanning alt or such, but right now, be a noob, learn from it and experience the game as you should. |
Abraxcis Caine
Crack Rock Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:24:20 -
[522] - Quote
Don't like it. I actually prefer to have the character bazaar relatively obscure and not something newbs know about. This would be a step in the wrong direction. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2035
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:24:49 -
[523] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Querns wrote:Nergart wrote:....so how long before eve is free to play?
i only ask so i can stop paying CCP any money?
Eve is already free to play. I have only ever directly given CCP money once, for my initial 30 days of subscription time. After that, I have kept all my accounts going strictly from in-game isk. tsk, I expect better than that of you, Q You know that any plex has been paid for by somebody so your claim of free actually is 'I have other people to pay for it' m Note that I did not say that my choices had denied CCP income. I'm saying I didn't have to supply the income personally. In this sense, eve is "free."
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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drunklies
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:24:57 -
[524] - Quote
Doing this would be like selling the soul of the game.
That CCP can't see that, and have gone so far as to publish a DEV BLOG about it, shows how they as a company have degraded.
Last week I was looking forward to Vegas, despite the idiotic idea to not stream the 2 most important talk this entire year, but now...
New players are all well and good, but vets have earned their place, and catering to bullsh*t entitlement will drive the valuable players away, without generating any real replacement.
Mike Azariah wrote:For people quitting in protest I remind them that Operation Magic School Bus does accept donations to help out the new players. Yes, this is a 'can I haz' post but it is one where the material will be put to good use, not just lining a wallet or hanger. Contract to me if you wish to donate.
m
Sure, let me rip all the heritage out of my characters and of eve itself, cause some mewling newbie thinks they deserve to skip past the hoops that everyone else jumped through. |
Stefan Silviu
Knowledge is Money - Money is Power
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:25:03 -
[525] - Quote
it smells like death , death of eve
it would be a much better ide that all transfered characters to get a free rename , hystory cleanup (employments , mails , deleted from all contacts) and a character resculpt ... or let the new owner to choose those within x days from transfer for a price ... |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3511
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:25:10 -
[526] - Quote
Kilian Katar wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Kilian Katar wrote:ISK IRON BANK wrote:Buy SP using plex
Buy char from Forum using plex
Not sure why everyone is getting excited over this. Characters take time to train, their skills and how they are spread or dedicated defines their worth, they sometimes come with a background, there is risk involved for those that train to sell (the demand may vanish) SP is SP and in its raw form will have a constant worth. 25m SP on the bazaar can vary wildly in price, in SP form it wouldn't The SP will not be created out of thin air. They have to be drained from an existing character who took the time to train those SP. FFS, read the Dev Blog and engage the brain people. No **** sherlock, but when you extract that SP you can apply it anywhere so its worth is actually far more than when it is hard wired in some characters head. ALSO as an item in game, like plex it could be destroyed so CCP is not only allowing the destruction of money via plex, but also the destruction of skillpoints. (let alone the skill points that vanish into thin air when applied to characters not on the minimum threshhold)
When a PLEX is destroyed no money is destroyed.
As for the rest, so what? Yes SP packets will be more valuable given they can be applied anywhere. Don't care.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
grenjet
Astrum Tredecim LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:25:13 -
[527] - Quote
Murkar Omaristos wrote:Holy **** CCP, we've seen some bad ideas over the years, but this one takes the cake.
My first thought too.
I have played EVE off and on for about 5 years and have read almost all dev blogs and thought this is a good idea or a bad idea, but this is definately the worst i have heard as of yet. I have never posted on the forums as i can recall but this seemed like a good time.
When I started playing EVE I thought it was a pain in the ass having to wait for skills to train (and I'm pointing at the low level skills). I had a few friends that played but were on a break, so I kept on paying with time and patience. When they got back on we went into a nullsec alliance together. They taught me how to be fast tackle and other support roles while I waited for better ships and modules to train. I got into battleships pretty quickly through a straight train but kept on losing them due to having bad piloting skills and support skills. When I got these support skills trained I was one of the guys that was putting out decent DPS and I felt like I was actually doing something to help my friends. I then started to train for T2 cruisers and I looked at the 25 day train time for level 5 and thought "Man that is worrth every bit of time I put into it". It went frrom being a pain in the ass to being something that actually told me that I was ready for these things.
If this gets into EVE you are going to have a lot of new players that do not know how to fly the shiny new ships that they can now use from buying skillpointts frrom anotther character. At this point one of a few things will happen; 1. New players will quit after playing for a short time due to not having patience for the learning curve. 2. New players will keep feeding money into your accounts for PLEX to sell for these ships and may or may not learn how to fly after a couple months. Im kindof pointing at solo players here on these first two. I will explain this bit later 3. New players will say 'I'll wait to get these things', and learn how to play the game well, finding some friends that will teach them to play along the way. Most veterans of EVE teaching a newbro to play will teach them game mechanics while they train the support skills so that they will be able to be self sustaining and be able to fly that shiny ship effectively. At which point the vets will start teaching the newbros how to PVP. This process will probably take a few months to complete but work out well for CCP.
Now while #3 sounds great what about the solo players from 1 and 2. Solo players have a extremely hard learning curve that quite possibly would be made harder due to having to contest the high skill vets that have bought SP. These players dont have anyone "coaching" them. They may be able to find good guides that are relevant to what they are trying to do but the majority of guides are outdated. This will lead to newbros having problems playing solo.
Now when I play other games I try not to grind to get the best items in the game because when I do the game loses a lot of the challenge. This is especially true if Im playing against other players. I personally become bored very quick with a game that I get the very best in a short time. One of the things that has kept me coming back to EVE over several breaks is the skill queue. I have to wait patiently to get better things not "rushing" through a game.
NOW after a very long winded forum post, I think there will be good and bad things that will happen if this devblog comes to fruition. Personally I do not support this idea. It feels like paying IRL money to get the best "Items" in the game. |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
606
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:25:42 -
[528] - Quote
Wow, what an incredibly bad idea.
I don't see any benefit to new players here. The in-game cost will certainly be prohibitive for a new player - most of whom struggle to grind enough ISK to pay for ships. Also, in this era of F2P games, new players are increasingly less willing to pay additional RL cash, in order to catch up to older players - they fully expect CCP to come up with a better, ie. free, method to do this.
I do see this system being used to exacerbate the supercap proliferation problem in null-sec. The current limit on supercaps is not the production cost/time of the ships, but rather the availability of enough specifically-skilled toons to perma-pilot them. With this new system, hundreds, if not thousands, of unused toons can be instantly repurposed to supercap pilots. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2035
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:25:44 -
[529] - Quote
Devin Wallace wrote:Tzu Wu wrote:Tado wrote:No thank you this is a terrible idea.
I have been playing this game since day one and for me this idea of yours will kill EVE for me. You bittervets really need to get over yourselves.You've been playing since day 1 and want to hold that "elite" status until the server finally shuts down? I say that because it seems bittervets would rather the game day then CCP make any changes that might effect their "elite" status. I haven't been playing this for a complete 4 years quite yet, and I feel the same way as any 13 year bittervet. I have personally attempted to train and influence at least 20 new players into making EVE part of their life. I have succeeded in only a handful of cases, because most humans simply do not have the long term resolve and commitment. I'm sure many can tell you the same story. I played through a time when this game was still in it's most rugged and unpolished forms. No health meter on drones in the drone-bay. Ugly asymmetrical ship hulls. The NeoCom icons were colorful. There was a jukebox. Corps did not have the option of turning off friendly fire. The Venture did not exist. Cruisers were poorly balanced and bonuses on most ships didn't really make sense. I was scanning wormhole chains when probes had to be moved 1 at a time and I could only use 6 because of SP limitations I had. If you failed to update your clone, you suffered a substantial and painful loss of SP. I lost Minmatar Battleship 5, Minmatar Battlecruiser 5, and Gallente Battlecruiser 5 while scrambling to reach staging areas during the chaos of the Halloween War. I dodged gate-camps from almost every highsec mercenary group in New Eden from 2012-2013, scraping a living off level 3 missions. I was ganked twice in wspace while soloing sleepers with my old nanocane. I went through faction warfare with the Minmatar Militia. I drove my security status down to -5.2 with the first months of Brave Newbies and spent nearly 2 weeks in Great Wildlands, ratting it back up with a Hound, when security ticks were every 15 minutes, not every 5 minutes. Ancillary Shield Boosters did not exist. Ancillary Armor reppers did not exist. Interceptors were not immune to bubbles. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I stuck with it through this game when it was far less hospitable to new players, and I earned every single skillpoint I have through trials of fire. I am PROUD to be a bittervet. Giving new players even more shortcuts and easy way out...it makes me feel sick "I suffered, so everyone else has to suffer too, or my suffering has lost meaning."
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Skilo
Higher Than Everest The-Culture
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:25:50 -
[530] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Skilo wrote:Malcanis wrote:Skilo wrote:I've been playing this game since 2003
Hey i can stop playing for 1 year and if i decide to return get the euros i saved and buy all the skill points i've "lost"
I wish I could warn you not to give them ideas like that. The point is that it goes against everyhting CCP always said about Pay to Win This is PAY TO WIN You pay you get skills you get better ships and guns you win PAY TO WIN Character bazaar dude....been there for years. Maybe you should, you know...play the game and read the forums vs. just paying to have your character earn SP. Just out of curiosity...have you ever actually undocked?
Character bazar it's different from ... i need to fly a logistic ship. let me just go and buy the skillpoints for that
If i ever undocked? Nope
i'm a bitter vet spining ships inside station. i'm on spin number 23.465. how about you? |
|
Ti'El
Brotherhood of Old Earth
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:26:05 -
[531] - Quote
Its a very good idea.
WIll bring new life to the game. It was what you were needing, a way to help new players to start and dont get bored waiting that much time for an basic profession.
As you can see, the old players are already afraid of this (and what this means) and the new players are eager (new fights)!
Looking forward to see this in the game!
Nice work guys! Keep the good work! :-D |
Kayden Katelo
Mythic Heights
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:26:40 -
[532] - Quote
This character is not my first. I bought this character from the bazaar.
I have been playing EVE on and off for a looong time. From the beginning I chose to make my isk through character creation and development. I would scan the Bazaar forum like I scan the EVE market looking for patterns: What is needed, what is not, what sells and what does not. I would also review the offered character's skill points, Corp Standings, implants etc. My goal is to get a complete picture of why a character costs x isk.
I would use my account's character slots to purposely design a character to sell: Mission runner with standings, miner with standings, industrialist with standings, marketeer with standings, jump alt, freighter pilots, marketeer/ore reprocessing with standings etc.
Many times I would see new characters being offered for sale by people that made mistakes in their training program. They trained everything instead of being focused to a career goal. It is clear they learned later (3-9 months after starting) that they "wasted" their skill points on things that clearly do not interest them. They learned that the Bazaar is available and with their new found knowledge I wanted to buy a new "main" or a mission specific alt.
Sometimes they are unable to sell the first character or sell it at a sub optimal price. They sometimes make up the difference between the isk at hand with PLEX sales to be able to afford the character they want to buy. This is where they spend real cash: PLEX trading for isk.
The real problem I have is what name should I give a character I intend to sell? What should the character look like? What race and profession should I choose? These also play into the decision of what price I ask for.
Why did I buy this character, Kayden Katelo? This is the first character I bought. I chose to but this character because I did not want to build my "main" from scratch anymore. I chose this character because it had exactly the skill point plan I wanted. Exactly. It took me several weeks to find it and I choose to pay a premium for it.
An example sale was approximately one month ago I sold a mining/processing/PI character with all level 4 drone skills for self defense.
So, what do I think of the dev blog? I reject the idea of skill point re-allocation. Like so many other things in EVE, this is also an area that needs to be learned. During that learning comes the realization that skill points are never wasted: You can always refocus the skilling effort to later sell the character if desired. IF you are interested in helping new customers with skill plans etc, may I suggest including a discussion of that during the new player experience? Possibly introducing customers to skill plans for certain careers paths? Work has already been started on this with the new ISIS ship trees.
What should be allowed for payment with real money? Name change. Portrait change. Complete rebuild of race and profession.
Point of note, no where in the blog did was the mechanism of the character bazaar implementation within the client described. Would this be something added to the market?
Finally, some time ago CCP hired a guy from Electronic Arts (EA). Is he still with the company and is this his idea? |
Schlampa
Hole Violence Whole Squid
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:26:59 -
[533] - Quote
I thought this was supposed to help newer players?
Why not just have sp be able to be redistributed on a per character basis. We all have those terrible skills we trained when we were new (exhumers) that would be nice to be able to spend elsewhere.
The Soylent Skill Packet as it stands will do more harm then good. That is unless the actual reason for it is to increase plex sales. |
Raddan Eldre'Thalas
4 Marketeers Rura-Penthe
23
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:27:19 -
[534] - Quote
My thoughts:
First, if you have been playing the game for many years and you have accumulated many skill points across multiple accounts or characters that aren't in use it seems like a great way to make a little extra isk by selling off some skill points. Thats all fine and dandy because hey, you earned that right?
Second, the majority of players in MMO's earn their characters current status. What these people are afraid of is someone purchasing plex with real life currency, converting it to isk and buying skill points to gain a early advantage in the game. This is what us players hate to see and also broadcasts your game as a "pay to win"
additional thoughts: The current system is set up such that if you buy a character you are stuck with what that character has earned, and you can't change that. In my opinion that is fair. You are buying earned work, you shouldn't expect to re-write the timeline just because you bought something. There's a little thing called "research" that enables you to find out if that character your interested in buying lived his eve life as a awoxer or not.
If there wasn't a way to convert plex to isk I would image there would be a lot more people in favor of this change. That would mean that current players would have to earn isk to buy skill points rather than just opening their wallets in real life in a matter of minutes.
Lastly, I think that this proposed change would invite a lot more illegal transactions. Think about it; you have a in game item that gives players an advantage early on in the game, people will try and profit on that with real life currency by offering those items for cheaper. If a item like this exists people will find a way to sell it and now you have to deal with that mess. |
Kilian Katar
Tenth Company
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:27:43 -
[535] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Kilian Katar wrote: FFS, read the Dev Blog and engage the brain people.
No **** sherlock, but when you extract that SP you can apply it anywhere so its worth is actually far more than when it is hard wired in some characters head. ALSO as an item in game, like plex it could be destroyed so CCP is not only allowing the destruction of money via plex, but also the destruction of skillpoints. (let alone the skill points that vanish into thin air when applied to characters not on the minimum threshhold)
When a PLEX is destroyed no money is destroyed.
As for the rest, so what? Yes SP packets will be more valuable given they can be applied anywhere. Don't care. [/quote]
"engage brain please" where does plex come from, it comes from real money purchase, when that item is destroyed rather than used which hundreds have been, the money is effectively destroyed (players get little to no return on the purchase), the only one benefiting is CCP, which will be the case here too. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2035
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:28:48 -
[536] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Wow, what an incredibly bad idea.
I don't see any benefit to new players here. The in-game cost will certainly be prohibitive for a new player - most of whom struggle to grind enough ISK to pay for ships. Also, in this era of F2P games, new players are increasingly less willing to pay additional RL cash, in order to catch up to older players - they fully expect CCP to come up with a better, ie. free, method to do this.
I do see this system being used to exacerbate the supercap proliferation problem in null-sec. The current limit on supercaps is not the production cost/time of the ships, but rather the availability of enough specifically-skilled toons to perma-pilot them. With this new system, hundreds, if not thousands, of unused toons can be instantly repurposed to supercap pilots. Are you blind? The unmitigated financial success of games like Dota 2, Team Fortress 2, League of Legends, and Hearthstone are overwhelmingly proving that, more than ever, people are MORE willing to pay additional RL cash in order to catch up with older players. (Or buy hats, as the case may be.)
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
luobote kong
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:28:49 -
[537] - Quote
I do not like playing Pay2Win games. A key reason I have stuck at Eve is because it is not Pay2Win. CCP think carefully about this. |
Fool Nalelmir
LEX University Limited Expectations
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:29:01 -
[538] - Quote
drunklies wrote:Doing this would be like selling the soul of the game. That CCP can't see that, and have gone so far as to publish a DEV BLOG about it, shows how they as a company have degraded. Last week I was looking forward to Vegas, despite the idiotic idea to not stream the 2 most important talk this entire year, but now... New players are all well and good, but vets have earned their place, and catering to bullsh*t entitlement will drive the valuable players away, without generating any real replacement. Mike Azariah wrote:For people quitting in protest I remind them that Operation Magic School Bus does accept donations to help out the new players. Yes, this is a 'can I haz' post but it is one where the material will be put to good use, not just lining a wallet or hanger. Contract to me if you wish to donate.
m Sure, let me rip all the heritage out of my characters and of eve itself, cause some mewling newbie thinks they deserve to skip past the hoops that everyone else jumped through.
I was also looking forward to Vegas before this derp I wasted money again maybe.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2035
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:31:13 -
[539] - Quote
luobote kong wrote:I do not like playing Pay2Win games. A key reason I have stuck at Eve is because it is not Pay2Win. CCP think carefully about this. Did you somehow ignore the part where one can convert PLEX, purchased with RL money, into ISK in the secondary markets?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:31:57 -
[540] - Quote
Monasucks wrote:
200Gé¼ for 145 SP, which are 6 years and several billion isk - so let's say ~ 1500Gé¼ in subscription alone + at least 10.000Gé¼ in ISK (if done the math converted back over PLEX price to RL money )
So spend ~12000Gé¼ not 100.
Thats a big difference because EVE is build by patiences and time and the social structure that develops in your corp and alliances etc.
You SIR are still in an n00b corp. Guess if you have tomorrow that 145m SP ? I and many other I know would not except you in that corps, for the next few years.
Who taught you maths? Its terrible...
6years = 72months x -ú9.99 = -ú719.28... NOT 10.000Gé¼
Ingame ISK is irrelevant as you cannot sell ISK with character transfer/character bazaar.
I would of thought you would of known that considering your in a 'big' alliance... It would be a shame I wouldnt be accepted into your corp :'( The feels... The feels are deep :( |
|
Tiagra May
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:32:24 -
[541] - Quote
This looks pretty good. I hope people work their way through the suggested changes objectively and come to the conclusion that this isnt as terrible at first glance. |
Xandrah Enaka
Talonclaw Foundation
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:32:46 -
[542] - Quote
I think the only thing I disagree with here mostly is the fact newcomers would now be able to have the same skill base as a veteran player.
But we do have a problem, newcomers to eve always turn away because of the steep slope it is to even compete with veterans or well grounded in players, thus they turn away and flee. |
luobote kong
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:33:25 -
[543] - Quote
Querns wrote:luobote kong wrote:I do not like playing Pay2Win games. A key reason I have stuck at Eve is because it is not Pay2Win. CCP think carefully about this. Did you somehow ignore the part where one can convert PLEX, purchased with RL money, into ISK in the secondary markets?
Well I kept on topic certainly, but I am no fan of that either. |
Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
1061
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:33:31 -
[544] - Quote
What does "analogous pricing" mean?
Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
|
drunklies
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:34:02 -
[545] - Quote
Fool Nalelmir wrote:drunklies wrote:Doing this would be like selling the soul of the game. That CCP can't see that, and have gone so far as to publish a DEV BLOG about it, shows how they as a company have degraded. Last week I was looking forward to Vegas, despite the idiotic idea to not stream the 2 most important talk this entire year, but now... New players are all well and good, but vets have earned their place, and catering to bullsh*t entitlement will drive the valuable players away, without generating any real replacement. Mike Azariah wrote:For people quitting in protest I remind them that Operation Magic School Bus does accept donations to help out the new players. Yes, this is a 'can I haz' post but it is one where the material will be put to good use, not just lining a wallet or hanger. Contract to me if you wish to donate.
m Sure, let me rip all the heritage out of my characters and of eve itself, cause some mewling newbie thinks they deserve to skip past the hoops that everyone else jumped through. I was also looking forward to Vegas before this derp I wasted money again maybe.
I was going to wait until vegas to decide on adding more game time to my accounts. Now I barely think it's worth bothering to watch reddit for the announcements. Eve is being prepped for free to play, pay to win. I just wish it wasn't the only game that has the potential to be ******* interesting. |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2705
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:34:09 -
[546] - Quote
Querns wrote: "I suffered, so everyone else has to suffer too, or my suffering has lost meaning."
That's Eve. That harsh universe where your choices matter, where it's an uphill battle every step of the way. THAT sells eve. Want to create your character defined by the choices you and you alone have made. You plan meticulously to use the time that is given to you in the best way possible. You can buy a character that someone else crafted, but if you want a character named and tailored to your exact needs? Only one way to do that - as it should be.
But now? F*ck it. Run some level 4's or incursions and buy some SP for my main. F*ck that noise. |
WaypointExit
Moosearmy Gentlemen's.Parlor
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:34:23 -
[547] - Quote
As a new player, I really like this "idea". After making a mess of the training of my original "main" because I was clueless, I trained some other characters with really focused training plans. The problem is I have joined a corp whose doctrines don't match my brilliant focused training plan. I can fly drone battleships decently, but have 0 missile skills. Well the corp I joined just decided to introduce a missile doctrine. I would love to be able to take some the the proceeds from my industry alt and make this character effective at missiles. I don't necessarily want to buy a character. I like my characters. I see this as an option that let's me keep my sculpted character, yet make myself useful faster. I have the money to buy a character but I didn't like the the thought of using a character I didn't create. It's a bit crazy since it's all pretend, but it just felt strange and not me in some odd way. With this option I can remain my virtual self and be helpful immediately to my new corp. It won't make me a better pilot or give me knowledge about how to fly missile boats, so if I foolishly buy and fly something out of my depth it will just be a donation to a more skilled pilots efficiency rating. I think this proposal is a more flexible variation of buying a character. I could understand better the anger if the option to buy a character did not already exist. All the skill points that are bought in this manner were earned in the same manner as those earned by characters for sell in the character bazaar. This is just more options on how to sell and make use of that investment imo. |
Skilo
Higher Than Everest The-Culture
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:34:33 -
[548] - Quote
Querns wrote:luobote kong wrote:I do not like playing Pay2Win games. A key reason I have stuck at Eve is because it is not Pay2Win. CCP think carefully about this. Did you somehow ignore the part where one can convert PLEX, purchased with RL money, into ISK in the secondary markets?
This allows you to get the ships or guns or ammo or whatever you want
But if you don't have the skills to use them ... ups
Now this changes that don't you think?
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2035
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:34:43 -
[549] - Quote
luobote kong wrote:Querns wrote:luobote kong wrote:I do not like playing Pay2Win games. A key reason I have stuck at Eve is because it is not Pay2Win. CCP think carefully about this. Did you somehow ignore the part where one can convert PLEX, purchased with RL money, into ISK in the secondary markets? Well I kept on topic certainly, but I am no fan of that either. It's on topic insofar as it is evidence against your point.
Eve has been "P2W" for a very long time. It's fundamental to its existence, really. Goodness knows I wouldn't have stuck around Eve for as long as I have if there wasn't a ready supply of people willing to pay my subscription in exchange for my space shekels.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Vendictus Prime
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:34:44 -
[550] - Quote
The list is so long on things that should have been worked on with the time wasted on this bad idea. |
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3511
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:36:07 -
[551] - Quote
Kilian Katar wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Kilian Katar wrote: FFS, read the Dev Blog and engage the brain people.
No **** sherlock, but when you extract that SP you can apply it anywhere so its worth is actually far more than when it is hard wired in some characters head. ALSO as an item in game, like plex it could be destroyed so CCP is not only allowing the destruction of money via plex, but also the destruction of skillpoints. (let alone the skill points that vanish into thin air when applied to characters not on the minimum threshhold) When a PLEX is destroyed no money is destroyed. As for the rest, so what? Yes SP packets will be more valuable given they can be applied anywhere. Don't care.
"engage brain please" where does plex come from, it comes from real money purchase, when that item is destroyed rather than used which hundreds have been, the money is effectively destroyed (players get little to no return on the purchase), the only one benefiting is CCP, which will be the case here too.[/quote]
It is no longer money when it is a PLEX.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Daenna Chrysi
Omega Foundry Unit The Ditanian Alliance
115
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:36:35 -
[552] - Quote
No, just no...
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Kilian Katar
Tenth Company
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:36:41 -
[553] - Quote
Desiderya wrote:What does "analogous pricing" mean?
A price proportional to its use, IE say a plex gains you 1m sp in a month, then the item if it was 500k would be worth half a plex (rough numbers nothing confirmed or worked out) |
GeeBee
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
88
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:37:47 -
[554] - Quote
There's a lot of problems for new players getting into this game, this is not the way.
Many millions of skillpoint in core skills are EVIL, Its much the same as learning skills and is in a way hazing. Long grinds of skills were Meaningful before the majority of the playerbase had these skills. As EVE ages the acceptable amount of skillpoint's for a PVP character slowly rises as multi-doctrines become commonplace. Being able to swap from doctrine to doctrine is very powerful as is the game of rock paper scissors, having a counter fleet is very powerful.
I remember when plex for REMAPS got dumpstered, this goes so far beyond that in a negative way.
The largest problem with this is if it becomes commonplace for new players to buy skillpoint's it sets a very bad precedent for EVE's *bang for buck* compared to other games. Considering this is a pay to play game in the age of free to play or buy to play games becoming commonplace this is a very bad decision.
On top of everything previously stated the amount of skillpoints being transferred seems rather low, the 80mil sp blockade is degrading to someone who has mistrained their character. Should it not be possible to pull a skill from your character you do not want to make unallocated skillpoints to spend on that character? |
NorthCrossroad
EVE University Ivy League
93
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:39:24 -
[555] - Quote
Hi
All the things that you said are bad like the current Bazaar or inability to change some attributes of the character are indeed need some work on. But aren't there others way to do it? Like, more in line with the actual game?
If you want to clear your background and change your name f.e. - either pay PLEX/Auru or do a very specific mission arc, which will get the player to work to make it happen (you do remember that we need a much better version of mission system, right? Good starting project over here).
If you want to allow characters (especially younger) to somewhat fasten their skill progression - create a mission arc that will award some "inhibitor", that will be usable by the character itself. And in these "inhibitors" have the diminishing return as you described, so older players won't get that much benefit.
But for the love of god, stop even thinking about selling SPs for cash.
P.S. I wonder, how did guys in CCP chose whose name will be under the DEV Blog? Did Rise do something very wrong? |
drunklies
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:39:37 -
[556] - Quote
Xandrah Enaka wrote:I think the only thing I disagree with here mostly is the fact newcomers would now be able to have the same skill base as a veteran player.
But we do have a problem, newcomers to eve always turn away because of the steep slope it is to even compete with veterans or well grounded in players, thus they turn away and flee.
Giving them buckets of sp wouldn't help. The learning barrier of eve isnt sp, it;s player skill and knowledge.
It could very easily be argued that selling new players sp so that they can compete with older players would result in a flash bubble of idiots investing 100's of dollars before discovering that sp means mostly jack ****, and raging out with bad reviews, killing off all new player retention.
FFS, it's just moving the issue of "I dont have enough SP" to "I dont have the inherent skills", only the second one is far more difficult to pinpoint, and impossible to scapegoat. At least the SP line is demonstrably refutable, the same cant be said for pilot error. |
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
689
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:40:20 -
[557] - Quote
Niraia wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:a guy I know asked me, "how's eve?"
Knowing he was possibly interested in joining the game to play it with me, and me being a completely honest person I had to immediately approach the situation with truth.
"it's fun, but I've had this guy subbed for 8 months now and I'm just now getting to the point where I will soon be able to properly fly only a small fraction of available ships with the proper skills."
I can't recommend the game to him and others because I know he wont be able to actually do things with me and be a fair contributor to my goals for almost a year.
I'm egotistical and narcissistic and #thebest and all, but even I can't lie to a friend and try tricking him into joining the game when I know full well that he will be disappointed with the options available to him.
At least now I'll be able to tell him, "join now and we can grind you isk for a month and be able to start buying skills to help you get to where I am and we can both fly around space dominating dudes together". If you aren't having fun now, you probably won't have fun with lots of SP either. It's your attitude that leads to bullshit game design and stupid ideas like this. Thanks.
Incorrect, but nice try.
you're welcome |
Eternal Bob
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:41:11 -
[558] - Quote
LOL @ the tears. Did any of you whingers actually stop and think about this for a moment? It's a sound idea. |
Seraphim Raven
League of Raven
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:41:30 -
[559] - Quote
Reallocating skill points at ~0.8 ratio would be great , but being able to sell them is an absolute pay2win feature and should never appear in EVE.
It would be awesome to be able to pay something like 500m ISK (or a 50% plex price variable ) and 500m SP to get 400M SP back as long as its an instant gain of unallocated skill points which you cant trade by any reason. We don't really need a thousand of "100m sp in first day of gameplay" rich kids. |
Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co. I N F A M O U S
510
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:41:52 -
[560] - Quote
This means from now on no matter what decision you make in the game it has no consequence any more? Just buy some more SP to get all the ships you want to fly, without any effort.
Secondly i think this is actually a bad idea for newer players. They will buy those packs with real money, and extra money for expensive items as well, and lose that money rapidly because they haven't learned how to play, and leave the game even faster then they already do.
And yes I know the CB exists, but it is hardly used by newer players, and I think that is a good thing.
Please don't do this CCP. |
|
Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group
160
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:41:55 -
[561] - Quote
This change is bad, it will be abused and exploited by the vets and ignored or even drive away newbies. It will have some use to people that are really starting to get in to eve say a year or so in, and it will be great to get rid of things on your characters you don't want cluttering it up. But the bad FAR outweighs the good here.
Listen to your customers, add a rename option that leaves a list of aliases, kinda like our current career history. Give us a way to get rid of skills on our charaters, we don't even need to get anything in return but if we where to get some unassigned skill points for it, it would need to be VERY slow, like 1-2 mill a year.
Querns wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Querns wrote:They are pretty much forced to do this, honestly.
Otherwise, everyone in eve would generate bastard farms whose only purpose is funneling SP to their main character. They are not forced to to this. CCP instead should be coerced to develop proper, engaging and awesome game content that makes people want to stick around (see a couple of my suggestions for example *openly brags about it*). This is not that content, this is nothing but yet another money grab that requires no real effort or development cost from CCP to actually improve the game. Developer time is not fungible, and CCP is able to work on multiple things at once to no ill effect. This argument comes up time and time again any time something even remotely unpalatable arrives and I'm tired of hearing it.
This isn't the argument you think it is, at all. He says that this takes no virtually devtime, so the idea that he is complaining about wasted dev time is ridiculous. He is saying that the fix for CCP's cash woes is devtime on content, not bandaids on game mechanics.
Read what was said next time, and not what you wanted to hear. |
Castelo Selva
Forcas armadas DARKNESS.
82
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:42:02 -
[562] - Quote
NO! For the first time in my more than a decade of Eve I have to say that, if this happens, I ill cancel all my accounts.
Do not sell Eve core game play. I cannot believe your company are so desperate to get money. I am pretty sure you have more way to help the new players.
Best post ever!
|
Tiranius Avetus
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:42:09 -
[563] - Quote
So you will sell time (the most valuable resource in EVE) for money. ******** idea... |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2035
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:42:18 -
[564] - Quote
NorthCrossroad wrote:Hi
All the things that you said are bad like the current Bazaar or inability to change some attributes of the character are indeed need some work on. But aren't there others way to do it? Like, more in line with the actual game?
If you want to clear your background and change your name f.e. - either pay PLEX/Auru or do a very specific mission arc, which will get the player to work to make it happen (you do remember that we need a much better version of mission system, right? Good starting project over here).
If you want to allow characters (especially younger) to somewhat fasten their skill progression - create a mission arc that will award some "inhibitor", that will be usable by the character itself. And in these "inhibitors" have the diminishing return as you described, so older players won't get that much benefit.
But for the love of god, stop even thinking about selling SPs for cash.
P.S. I wonder, how did guys in CCP chose whose name will be under the DEV Blog? Did Rise do something very wrong? Name changes and history wipes are nice in theory, but the preponderance of third party sites that track and cache this information would make it a fool's game to use and in fact would be a greater red flag than the unwanted corp history in the first place.
Even with a name change, the character's internal character_id wouldn't change. This allows one to plug it into a database like evewho's and get the real scoop on the character.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Fool Nalelmir
LEX University Limited Expectations
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:42:25 -
[565] - Quote
You know I just had a thought.
So a new player is gonna be like I can just buy SP and then he is going to get into some ship and do all the things he can do with it in about a week. Then because he isn't the type to wait and work towards something long term will then be like well eve sucks and then move on to something else telling his buddies meh eve sucks I beat it in two weeks lol.
|
Alexis Nightwish
333
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:43:01 -
[566] - Quote
CCP did you you not read the stickied megathread on F&I? Did you not already see the overwhelming opposition to this? Didn't the CSM saying it's a bad idea give you pause?
This is pay to win, pure and simple. Anyone with lots of RL money or even someone who is space rich can buy power with this scheme. If you think that cost is going to be a barrier you need to take a look at your game's history. Start with supercapitals and go from there.
Some may argue that the character bazaar was just p2w and this is no different, but that's incorrect. With the bazaar you had to buy the whole character with all the implications of doing so:
Takes one of your few character slots The account it's on (if separate from your main) needs to be active to be able to actually use the character If you want to train the character you have to purchase PLEX or stop training the account's other character(s) Only one character per account can be logged in at a time so any other characters are locked out while this one is in use The character may have irrelevant or redundant skills you don't need/want The character may have a negative history (corp thief, etc.) or bad standings The character may have a look or name you don't like
With your new scheme (and it is a scheme), none of those counter weights to the p2w nature of the character bazaar will apply, and there will be a mass exodus of paying customers.
Ironically, the greedier you get, the less money you make.
CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
EVE Online's "I win!" Button
Fixing bombs, not the bombers
|
Kilian Katar
Tenth Company
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:43:04 -
[567] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Kilian Katar wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: FFS, read the Dev Blog and engage the brain people.
No **** sherlock, but when you extract that SP you can apply it anywhere so its worth is actually far more than when it is hard wired in some characters head. ALSO as an item in game, like plex it could be destroyed so CCP is not only allowing the destruction of money via plex, but also the destruction of skillpoints. (let alone the skill points that vanish into thin air when applied to characters not on the minimum threshhold) When a PLEX is destroyed no money is destroyed. As for the rest, so what? Yes SP packets will be more valuable given they can be applied anywhere. Don't care.
"engage brain please" where does plex come from, it comes from real money purchase, when that item is destroyed rather than used which hundreds have been, the money is effectively destroyed (players get little to no return on the purchase), the only one benefiting is CCP, which will be the case here too.[/quote]
It is no longer money when it is a PLEX. [/quote]
It may not be technically money, but it still holds real money value, its worth being 30 days of game time, and based on how much ccp sells plex for. Every plex in game bar those given at the alliance tournament is purchased by someone for real world currency, if it is destroyed, and not used it only benefits CCP, much as with these items, If destroyed or used on a character of higher SP because they are made as you also said, from SP of other players, will be SP destroyed from the game. Something CCP recently removed when they removed the clone upgrades and now only happens when you lose a T3 cruiser. |
Rena Monachica
Capital Hot Rods
36
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:43:47 -
[568] - Quote
I usually don-¦t complain on the forum, but this is a very bad idea. Do not want. |
Josef Kennet
Zima Corp Infinity Space.
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:43:48 -
[569] - Quote
NO
Any SP trade between characters is P2W: - Create ___ (insert number) accounts - Train then for ___ (insert time frame) - Sell SP to your Main Its basically direct plex to sp convertation with some time delay...
Ideas: - Ingame\web char bazar with filters etc - When you buy character you enter new name for it and corp history consist only from 1 NPC corp - Increase fee for character transfer About SP: - SP Remapping may work only within character |
Eternal Bob
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:44:14 -
[570] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:This means from now on no matter what decision you make in the game it has no consequence any more? Just buy some more SP to get all the ships you want to fly, without any effort.
Tell me all about the effort needed to gain skill points currently. |
|
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:44:43 -
[571] - Quote
RL MONEY => PLEX => CHARACTER BAZAAR => 100M SP CHARACTER
RL MONEY => AUR => SKILLPOINT BOOST => 100M SP CHARACTER
Difference?
CHARACTERS BIRTH DATE NO BAD CHARACTER HISTORY FOR SKILLPOINT BOOSTED CHARACTER.
Disagree? Why? |
Vrarrg
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:45:04 -
[572] - Quote
No this is a horrible idea, if you are really hurting for money then listen to what we have been saying and get those things done. Instead of trying to make the game P2W or even F2P. There have been several good ideas over the past few years you guys pass up or don't even care about. This is a whole new low for CCP to reach. |
Mai Ling Ravencroft
Duragon Pioneer Group Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:45:14 -
[573] - Quote
I think that saying that this is for newer players is one of two things, 1) a bold faced lie or 2) a complete lack of understanding of EVE by CCP.
Honestly, how can CCP truly believe that this would help new players. If a new player falls for this, then that player now misses out on the whole learning experience. they don't learn why Core Skills are core, they don't spent time in T1 hulls that teach the basics, they don't get to feel like they achieved anything special when they get that T2.
These pilots will also be, right from the start, conditioned that you have to buy PLEX to achieve your goals. Earning it through time and effort will be the poor mans way, and so long as you have money to spare, EVE will offer you anything. Then when these new players get to feeling like they can do it all, after only a week or so, they then get to meet the big bad wolves who have been here for years, and loose it all.
That does nothing to build a new play, but rather makes them think that even with using real money, they have no chance to catch up, when in reality, a 3 day old pilot with a rifter can be a solid pilot in a fleet. We all to often like to make it seem like bigger and better are the only way to win the day, but not that long ago, there where hordes of T1 frigates plowing through this game, owning all they came across.
What truly is key for new players is not skills, nor wallet size, but rather those they meet and choose to fly with. If new player experience is really what is the key point here, then make it so that new players can find groups easier, find mentors, and learn how to play the game within the safety of a team. Be it 5 guys of 5 thousand, it matters little so long as the new pilot gets training from experienced pilots who want to see them grow into long standing Eve players.
If CCP really wants to help new players, finding a way to easily and in some aspect safely find a corp/alliance to join would be a good start, a way that is intrinsic and easy to find, rather than buried under obscurity. |
Alyxportur
From Our Cold Dead Hands
113
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:45:26 -
[574] - Quote
Your intention is both inefficient and inelegant.
What I surmise from the whole post is that you want to give newer players the ability to progress faster, and their choice in this is still affected by the knowledge of the game----much like buying a character on the bazaar, increasing the skillpoints on your own character is only as useful as your game experience and knowledge makes it. Ignorant people spending money on characters and skills meet their own hubris.
If you want to place greater adaptability and an ISK value on skillpoints that is more generic and useful than the skillpoints proffered via the character bazaar, make SP accrue over time (similar to DUST, and an idea that has been around for years) as a resource that can be sold in units on the market for ISK. This has it's own negative impacts however, which necessitates mechanics to prevent the abuse, but that's always a part of EVE change.
What I dislike most about the suggested process and the diminishing returns is:
- Making players buy Aurum to buy an item to buy skills (more $ generation for CCP)
- You're rewarding newer players more than presumably loyal players who have spent years playing the game and accruing skillpoints
- It reminds me of boosting in WoW where new players don't like being level 1 and get boosts to quickly get max level to where the real gaming is----EVE is NOT that type of game, and offering loyal players a smaller carrot than a new player is a punishment for being old.
What I cannot shake is that this new item/mechanic was conceptualized to solve [what I and many assume to be] the population problem in EVE. Is CCP worried about new players failing to remain loyal players/are they quitting and not coming back after the first month? Is CCP worried about general population decline?
If you want to justify this change, I ask you to please publish statistics on skill points of current players. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2037
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:45:29 -
[575] - Quote
Malice Redeemer wrote:Querns wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Querns wrote:They are pretty much forced to do this, honestly.
Otherwise, everyone in eve would generate bastard farms whose only purpose is funneling SP to their main character. They are not forced to to this. CCP instead should be coerced to develop proper, engaging and awesome game content that makes people want to stick around (see a couple of my suggestions for example *openly brags about it*). This is not that content, this is nothing but yet another money grab that requires no real effort or development cost from CCP to actually improve the game. Developer time is not fungible, and CCP is able to work on multiple things at once to no ill effect. This argument comes up time and time again any time something even remotely unpalatable arrives and I'm tired of hearing it. This isn't the argument you think it is, at all. He says that this takes no virtually devtime, so the idea that he is complaining about wasted dev time is ridiculous. He is saying that the fix for CCP's cash woes is devtime on content, not bandaids on game mechanics. Read what was said next time, and not what you wanted to hear. Actually, it's perfectly applicable. He's arguing that Feature X was released and that it is an outrage because Feature Y should have been released instead. That falls foul of the "developer time is perfectly fungible and CCP has no ability to multitask" trap, even with the admission that Feature X was "easy" to do.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
164
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:45:34 -
[576] - Quote
Ok, so I will take this suggestion seriously for a second and try and offer some constructive feedback.
First of all you do realise this will flood the market with SP as there are so many people with SP spent on skills that are useless to them.
So basically what this will be is an instant level up to 80mil SP; 80mil of unallocated SP. So your making the same mistake that Blizzard made when it effectively removed a good chunk of the starter experience and progressed everyone straight to level 80.
SP currently has a value which is determined by the amount of time it takes to accumulate, this is valued highly as the method by which it accrues can not be modified by play time or grinding and is relatively unchangeable across all characters, and is only marginally modified by implants. So by allowing SP to be traded on the market you will obviously massively reduce the value of SP.
This has many consequences, there are too many for me to detail here, but to put it simply in one fell swoop will destroy what has been a fundamental part of the game for the last 12 years. You will also ruin all of the hard work and good progress CCP have been putting in over the last couple of years to drive eve to be at the cutting edge of MMORPGs.
Why do you want to ruin the starter experience for new players by allowing them to skip through it anyway? The hard fix is to implement a more enjoyable starting experience which I can see you are struggling with and is a difficult task, but this quick fix solution which you suggest is definitely not the way forward. Unfortunately the only way is to carry on with what you have been doing so excellently in the last few years and put in the hard work to make eve a fundamentally better game.
So in essence this idea is one of the worse I've ever seen grace a devblog. I'd even be more inclined towards allowing people to completely wipe their characters name and history when doing a character transfer (with a good chunk of SP lost in the process). This would more elegantly solve the problems you list in the devblog, and most importantly would not devalue SP.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Aram Kachaturian
Aram Pleasure Hub Holding
186
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:45:42 -
[577] - Quote
Free to play by 2017
Ruler of the Monocle Clubhouse - Skymarshal on a Cosmic Level & Owner of the Wisdom of Kings : The French Prince.
|
drunklies
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:45:59 -
[578] - Quote
WaypointExit wrote:As a new player, I really like this "idea". After making a mess of the training of my original "main" because I was clueless, I trained some other characters with really focused training plans. The problem is I have joined a corp whose doctrines don't match my brilliant focused training plan. I can fly drone battleships decently, but have 0 missile skills. Well the corp I joined just decided to introduce a missile doctrine. I would love to be able to take some the the proceeds from my industry alt and make this character effective at missiles. I don't necessarily want to buy a character. I like my characters. I see this as an option that let's me keep my sculpted character, yet make myself useful faster. I have the money to buy a character but I didn't like the the thought of using a character I didn't create. It's a bit crazy since it's all pretend, but it just felt strange and not me in some odd way. With this option I can remain my virtual self and be helpful immediately to my new corp. It won't make me a better pilot or give me knowledge about how to fly missile boats, so if I foolishly buy and fly something out of my depth it will just be a donation to a more skilled pilots efficiency rating. I think this proposal is a more flexible variation of buying a character. I could understand better the anger if the option to buy a character did not already exist. All the skill points that are bought in this manner were earned in the same manner as those earned by characters for sell in the character bazaar. This is just more options on how to sell and make use of that investment imo.
Welcome to Eve, your choices have meaning.
Every damn player has a borked to hell first toon with crap all over the place.
Doesn't mean you should be able to crush 6 characters worth of sp and force feed it into the one. |
Aker Krane
OMEGADYNE LABS Rising Darkness
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:46:15 -
[579] - Quote
FANTASTIC IDEA CCP!
Please implement as soon as practical! This is just awesome!
An elegant solution to tons of crappy alts -- especially those of us with millions of now unnecessary skill points in science
Aker |
Monasucks
BLACK SQUADRON. RAZOR Alliance
151
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:46:26 -
[580] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:Monasucks wrote:
200Gé¼ for 145 SP, which are 6 years and several billion isk - so let's say ~ 1500Gé¼ in subscription alone + at least 10.000Gé¼ in ISK (if done the math converted back over PLEX price to RL money )
So spend ~12000Gé¼ not 100.
Thats a big difference because EVE is build by patiences and time and the social structure that develops in your corp and alliances etc.
You SIR are still in an n00b corp. Guess if you have tomorrow that 145m SP ? I and many other I know would not except you in that corps, for the next few years.
Who taught you maths? Its terrible... 6years = 72months x -ú9.99 = -ú719.28... NOT 10.000Gé¼ Ingame ISK is irrelevant as you cannot sell ISK with character transfer/character bazaar. I would of thought you would of known that considering your in a 'big' alliance... It would be a shame I wouldnt be accepted into your corp :'( The feels... The feels are deep :(
I'm not bad at math - don't forget you need to buy all those skills... imps etc. thats probably the value in Gé¼ you have to spend
Can I haz you're stuff?
[i][b]A good worker is a live worker. Free to live - and work! A bad worker is a dead worker; and vice versa. Don't be a bad worker; bad workers are slaves, and dead. Payday for good workers has been postponed indefinitely. Pa
|
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2037
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:46:52 -
[581] - Quote
Tiranius Avetus wrote:So you will sell time (the most valuable resource in EVE) for money. ******** idea... Do they not have the Character Bazaar where you live?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Devin Wallace
Kavashikari
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:47:29 -
[582] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:RL MONEY => PLEX => CHARACTER BAZAAR => 100M SP CHARACTER
RL MONEY => AUR => SKILLPOINT BOOST => 100M SP CHARACTER
Difference?
CHARACTERS BIRTH DATE NO BAD CHARACTER HISTORY FOR SKILLPOINT BOOSTED CHARACTER.
Disagree? Why?
as I said earlier, creating a 100 mil SP character from scratch will either consist of two realities:
1. it will cost $20,000
or
2. it will be impossible because of a limitation of available packets
I hope I don't meet the worm that creates the holes, -ámust be immortal.
|
Veishe
Rubbish
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:47:32 -
[583] - Quote
Not Joke? Disgusting idea.
One of learned skill has one history. CCP bros really don't understand what makes EVE char unique. |
Mai Ling Ravencroft
Duragon Pioneer Group Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:47:54 -
[584] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:RL MONEY => PLEX => CHARACTER BAZAAR => 100M SP CHARACTER
RL MONEY => AUR => SKILLPOINT BOOST => 100M SP CHARACTER
Difference?
CHARACTERS BIRTH DATE NO BAD CHARACTER HISTORY FOR SKILLPOINT BOOSTED CHARACTER.
Disagree? Why?
The difference is that most new players have no clue the Bazaar exists, which means they have to play for a while, learn the basics and either find a group or stumble on it over time. Which means that they have a bit more skill than a first day pilot, with a fat wallet and no clue. |
Cifelli
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:48:06 -
[585] - Quote
Nergart wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:For people quitting in protest I remind them that Operation Magic School Bus does accept donations to help out the new players. Yes, this is a 'can I haz' post but it is one where the material will be put to good use, not just lining a wallet or hanger. Contract to me if you wish to donate.
m what new players? also this does kind of prove my point about the individuals being part of the CSM for their own gains
100% agree
The thing that made eve fun and unique is that it was a very unforgiving game and had the famed steepest learning curve but once you survive it and learn the game and how things work etc it is incredibly fun. Look at every other MMO and u wont find one that has people who have played for literally decades.
I get why you want to make this game more appealing to new people as the older the game gets the more intimidating it is for new people but most have went through it and you enjoy eve thats why you have so many veteran players, CCP has ignored the past year or so the community telling it that it doesnt like potential changes and the attitude has been "we know best so its happening" Active players are dropping, the community is telling you that the game is destroying its self and still you continue to move towards Pay to win to get a quick buck from new people to the game who will pay 30 quid and then get bored and leave.
What would you rather have quick 30 dollars from someone who will get bored and leave or retain your player base who have played for years (and payed and will continue to pay)?
people are leaving in record numbers and there will come a point where ships skins etc wont be enough to hide an income loss for ccp when there is no oneplaying...
|
Morphisat
Millard Innovation Inc The 20 Minuters
58
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:51:19 -
[586] - Quote
Cifelli wrote:
What would you rather have quick 30 dollars from someone who will get bored and leave or retain your player base who have played for years (and payed and will continue to pay)?
people are leaving in record numbers and there will come a point where ships skins etc wont be enough to hide an income loss for ccp when there is no oneplaying...
My guess at the moment is that they rather want the quick 30 quid. A lot of old players use isk to pay for their sub. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1699
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:51:35 -
[587] - Quote
Just imagine what EVE will look like to new players who are already used to P2W games:
"Oh, it takes me 1 week to train for this ship or I can pay 200$ to buy the SP to do this right away???!!! WTFWORSTP2WEVERBYE!!!"
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Aker Krane
OMEGADYNE LABS Rising Darkness
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:52:36 -
[588] - Quote
Tiranius Avetus wrote:So you will sell time (the most valuable resource in EVE) for money. ******** idea...
They already do. PLEX |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1747
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:53:07 -
[589] - Quote
For all the reasons put forward in all the threads over the few years I've played about buying ISK I say a huge no.
So now we have 'EvE has consequences...except you can buy your way out of them'? No thanks.
Of Course CCP will do this anyway no matter the opinion of the majority of existing players so at least give us some way to have some benefit from being a long term non-tampered character.
|
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2706
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:53:12 -
[590] - Quote
Querns wrote:Tiranius Avetus wrote:So you will sell time (the most valuable resource in EVE) for money. ******** idea... Do they not have the Character Bazaar where you live? This argument is also disingenuous,
There is a fixed number of character slots per account, and managing an increasing number of accounts becomes increasingly annoying/problematic.
Practically speaking, If I want to fly Sleipnirs TODAY on my main, buying an extra character wouldn't be my solution. But with this system? Let's run some incursions for that dank sp! |
|
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
338
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:53:33 -
[591] - Quote
Tiranius Avetus wrote:So you will sell time (the most valuable resource in EVE) for money. ******** idea...
Nope, they will sell past time already invested in game by others, to people new into the game.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
|
Juliette Asanari
Saeder-Krupp Trading Division
71
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:53:42 -
[592] - Quote
Hm, I don't like this idea.
Reason a) Right now, the amount of SP a character has some measure of accomplishment. This character right now sits at about 61m SP, which took about 3 years. Now, not to make an "I had to suffer, you shall suffer too"-argument, but should this idea come to pass, a lot of "lower-SP" (airquotes, since i won't consider 20m-30m low...) might become meaningless (Just grind more ISK/PLEX and boost till diminishing returns hit)
b) Right now, I can look at a characters age and get a rough ballpark estimate about the amount of SP said character has. Should this come to pass, that link is broken. A week old character might have "all the things" at V because the player is dumping a metric ton of RL-Cash into the game. Not ideal.
m2c |
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans
453
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:53:55 -
[593] - Quote
FOR THE LOVE OF ALL IS EVE ONLINE!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
R.I.P. Vile Rat
|
Fool Nalelmir
LEX University Limited Expectations
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:54:48 -
[594] - Quote
TheSmokingHertog wrote:Tiranius Avetus wrote:So you will sell time (the most valuable resource in EVE) for money. ******** idea... Nope, they will sell past time already invested in game by others, to people new into the game.
Exactly
|
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:55:43 -
[595] - Quote
Vrarrg wrote:No this is a horrible idea, if you are really hurting for money then listen to what we have been saying and get those things done. Instead of trying to make the game P2W or even F2P. There have been several good ideas over the past few years you guys pass up or don't even care about. This is a whole new low for CCP to reach.
PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY THIS CHANGE WOULD MAKE IT PAY TO WIN? |
minni mitti
Demezes Enterprise Shadow of xXDEATHXx
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:56:12 -
[596] - Quote
bb eve lol, cup if you don't know how make game better just don't touch it |
Boom Danslesdents
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:56:24 -
[597] - Quote
Just canceled 4 accounts paid with real money.
I think you get my point : Get rid of this whole buying/selling ISK idea. |
Demolishar
United Aggression
1058
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:56:54 -
[598] - Quote
Well this is interesting.
One PLEX gets me 2M skill points or so on a noob alt.
That makes 4 skill packets which get me 200k on my main.
To train all skills is about 500 million SP and I have about 150 million SP (fairly typical situation) so I need 350 million SP.
That's 1750 PLEX or in other words 2 trillion or in other words $26,000.
I wonder how many people will do this. |
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH Circle-Of-Two
123
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:57:14 -
[599] - Quote
To all you Yay Sayers ...coming from a bitter vet the answer is NO. You want to know why it is NO. Because we said so. The only people carrying eve are the old bitter vets..and you know what if we say NO its means Fucken..NO
Do you idiots really for one minute think after this thread that CCP would implement this hmmm ?
I will pull all 5 active acounts with out blinking an eye if this crap hits TQ..now **** off and go and earn your way into Eve.
At the same token CCP if your scrapped for cash just let us know in a honest way and we will support you as far as we can..... |
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:57:25 -
[600] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:Tiranius Avetus wrote:So you will sell time (the most valuable resource in EVE) for money. ******** idea... Do they not have the Character Bazaar where you live? This argument is also disingenuous, There is a fixed number of character slots per account, and managing an increasing number of accounts becomes increasingly annoying/problematic. Practically speaking, If I want to fly Sleipnirs TODAY on my main, buying an extra character wouldn't be my solution. But with this system? Let's run some incursions for that dank sp!
And what difference would you flying a Sleipnir today rathar than 2 months from now have on me?
Nothing. |
|
Keras Authion
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
198
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:57:33 -
[601] - Quote
Come on CCP, you shouldn't do april fools when it's not the first of april.
This post was rated "C" for capsuleer.
|
Josef Kennet
Zima Corp Infinity Space.
18
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:58:33 -
[602] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:Vrarrg wrote:No this is a horrible idea, if you are really hurting for money then listen to what we have been saying and get those things done. Instead of trying to make the game P2W or even F2P. There have been several good ideas over the past few years you guys pass up or don't even care about. This is a whole new low for CCP to reach. PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY THIS CHANGE WOULD MAKE IT PAY TO WIN? Train over 9000 accounts for a month and sell SP to your main |
Fool Nalelmir
LEX University Limited Expectations
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:58:37 -
[603] - Quote
Eve has been rebalanced.... Players have been nerfed. |
Skilo
Higher Than Everest The-Culture
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:58:44 -
[604] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:Vrarrg wrote:No this is a horrible idea, if you are really hurting for money then listen to what we have been saying and get those things done. Instead of trying to make the game P2W or even F2P. There have been several good ideas over the past few years you guys pass up or don't even care about. This is a whole new low for CCP to reach. PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY THIS CHANGE WOULD MAKE IT PAY TO WIN?
You are sitting on your char, the char you created and like. Suddenly FCs come with a new fleet ideia
You need to fly Machariels
You look into your char and think. damn 34 days for me to be able to fly those
You can always buy a char ofc but on your char .... nope
Now with this you can simply go and buy the skillpoints you need, place it on your char ... you can fly a machariel
Pay To Win |
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:59:30 -
[605] - Quote
Captain Africa wrote:To all you Yay Sayers ...coming from a bitter vet the answer is NO. You want to know why it is NO. Because we said so. The only people carrying eve are the old bitter vets..and you know what if we say NO its means Fucken..NO
Do you idiots really for one minute think after this thread that CCP would implement this hmmm ?
I will pull all 5 active acounts with out blinking an eye if this crap hits TQ..now **** off and go and earn your way into Eve.
LOL!
BYEE!
CAN I HAVE YOU STUFFZ PLX?
Captain Africa wrote: The only people carrying eve are the old bitter vets..
HAHAHAHAHAHA |
Oxide Ammar
228
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:59:46 -
[606] - Quote
Thx CCP for this great idea...looking forward to you use it.
rest of you HAHAHAHAHA....
Lady Areola Fappington: -áSolo PVP isn't dead!-á You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2039
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 18:59:49 -
[607] - Quote
Mai Ling Ravencroft wrote:Skinzee wrote:RL MONEY => PLEX => CHARACTER BAZAAR => 100M SP CHARACTER
RL MONEY => AUR => SKILLPOINT BOOST => 100M SP CHARACTER
Difference?
CHARACTERS BIRTH DATE NO BAD CHARACTER HISTORY FOR SKILLPOINT BOOSTED CHARACTER.
Disagree? Why? The difference is that most new players have no clue the Bazaar exists, which means they have to play for a while, learn the basics and either find a group or stumble on it over time. Which means that they have a bit more skill than a first day pilot, with a fat wallet and no clue. Or, to put it another way, it's an arbitrary barrier to entry for newer players.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:00:53 -
[608] - Quote
Skilo wrote:Skinzee wrote:Vrarrg wrote:No this is a horrible idea, if you are really hurting for money then listen to what we have been saying and get those things done. Instead of trying to make the game P2W or even F2P. There have been several good ideas over the past few years you guys pass up or don't even care about. This is a whole new low for CCP to reach. PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY THIS CHANGE WOULD MAKE IT PAY TO WIN? You are sitting on your char, the char you created and like. Suddenly FCs come with a new fleet ideia You need to fly Machariels You look into your char and think. damn 34 days for me to be able to fly those You can always buy a char ofc but on your char .... nope Now with this you can simply go and buy the skillpoints you need, place it on your char ... you can fly a machariel Pay To Win
But as you said... I can go buy a character which can already fly a Machariel on Character Bazaar. |
atif09
THE THIRTEEN SAMURAI The Old Guard.
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:01:16 -
[609] - Quote
Just saw the new dev blog
https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/exploring-the-character-bazaar-skill-trading/
Unless I'm mistaken this will allow players to drain unwanted characters of their sp and simply gorge their mains with all the sp until they get a supreme maxed character?
There was once a game called runescape whose developers let you buy sp for in game currency and rl cash want to know where that game is now? it's dead.
On the same topic what is with the abysmal returns on sp investment?
Lets say I have an unwanted alt with 50mil sp which I drain in to a packet and give to my main which has 100 mil sp does that mean I will get a return of 50k sp per 1 mil sp?
that would mean I would get 2.5 million sp for 80 million sp.....that is just awful
Please reconsider inputting this update into the game. but if you absolutely have to please make the sp trade more fair
how about making it a linear trade system where the more sp you use on a character the less the returns?
Thanks |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40512
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:01:23 -
[610] - Quote
This protects the prestige associated with a long commitment to a character?
What a joke. It does the opposite.
Single worst change in the game ever.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
|
Skilo
Higher Than Everest The-Culture
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:02:54 -
[611] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:Skilo wrote:Skinzee wrote:Vrarrg wrote:No this is a horrible idea, if you are really hurting for money then listen to what we have been saying and get those things done. Instead of trying to make the game P2W or even F2P. There have been several good ideas over the past few years you guys pass up or don't even care about. This is a whole new low for CCP to reach. PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY THIS CHANGE WOULD MAKE IT PAY TO WIN? You are sitting on your char, the char you created and like. Suddenly FCs come with a new fleet ideia You need to fly Machariels You look into your char and think. damn 34 days for me to be able to fly those You can always buy a char ofc but on your char .... nope Now with this you can simply go and buy the skillpoints you need, place it on your char ... you can fly a machariel Pay To Win But as you said... I can go buy a character which can already fly a Machariel on Character Bazaar.
But that char can fly machariel thanks to the TIME someone took to do it
Not because of the money they spent
HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!! |
Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
475
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:03:23 -
[612] - Quote
Dunno whether to laugh or cry. Happily I'll be able to decide while playing with my new army of alts. So many monocles to save for.
Travelling at the speed of love.
|
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:03:38 -
[613] - Quote
Josef Kennet wrote:Skinzee wrote:Vrarrg wrote:No this is a horrible idea, if you are really hurting for money then listen to what we have been saying and get those things done. Instead of trying to make the game P2W or even F2P. There have been several good ideas over the past few years you guys pass up or don't even care about. This is a whole new low for CCP to reach. PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY THIS CHANGE WOULD MAKE IT PAY TO WIN? Train over 9000 accounts for a month and sell SP to your main
Trial accounts cant use this service... Which would mean you would have to sub the account. Which means you would have 9000x -ú10 to pay... and even then they cant sell the SP because they have to have over 5m SP... which is say... 4months...
so....
9000x4x-ú10 = -ú360,000 + The Skill Transfer fee...
Sounds like a great deal right? ^^ |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2039
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:03:40 -
[614] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:Tiranius Avetus wrote:So you will sell time (the most valuable resource in EVE) for money. ******** idea... Do they not have the Character Bazaar where you live? This argument is also disingenuous, There is a fixed number of character slots per account, and managing an increasing number of accounts becomes increasingly annoying/problematic. Practically speaking, If I want to fly Sleipnirs TODAY on my main, buying an extra character wouldn't be my solution. But with this system? Let's run some incursions for that dank sp! You're the one who insists on it being your "main." Main characters are practically meaningless in a world where the Character Bazaar exists.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Dunk Dinkle
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
111
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:03:41 -
[615] - Quote
I plan to drink the delicious brain goo of poors. |
Monasucks
BLACK SQUADRON. RAZOR Alliance
151
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:03:49 -
[616] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:Skilo wrote:Skinzee wrote:Vrarrg wrote:No this is a horrible idea, if you are really hurting for money then listen to what we have been saying and get those things done. Instead of trying to make the game P2W or even F2P. There have been several good ideas over the past few years you guys pass up or don't even care about. This is a whole new low for CCP to reach. PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY THIS CHANGE WOULD MAKE IT PAY TO WIN? You are sitting on your char, the char you created and like. Suddenly FCs come with a new fleet ideia You need to fly Machariels You look into your char and think. damn 34 days for me to be able to fly those You can always buy a char ofc but on your char .... nope Now with this you can simply go and buy the skillpoints you need, place it on your char ... you can fly a machariel Pay To Win But as you said... I can go buy a character which can already fly a Machariel on Character Bazaar.
But than you still have the risk, which with this char comes with... you still get the SP you don't want with it.
EVE is an unforgiving game, hard and unfair. Every mistake you make in skilling or every other will have an impact. and most last forever.
Can I haz you're stuff?
[i][b]A good worker is a live worker. Free to live - and work! A bad worker is a dead worker; and vice versa. Don't be a bad worker; bad workers are slaves, and dead. Payday for good workers has been postponed indefinitely. Pa
|
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen Grumpy Space Bastards
243
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:04:53 -
[617] - Quote
Lucian Solomon wrote:Querns wrote:Lucian Solomon wrote:With this many tears you're on to something big CCP. Keep up the good work. It's the future, plug me in, load em up
I'm going to learn jiu jitsu.
+1 That it took 15 pages for someone to (basically) make this reference to The Matrix astounds me. I would have made it myself, but I had more substantive things to say. (Not to discount the value of a good reference.) Load up the grid gentlemen. This is going to be AMAZING for pvp ;)
I love it.
Pirate NPCs should sell fully-trained-to-5 skill injections. Every time you do an injection, they're like boosters. You get a 20% penalty to something significant (tracking, rate of fire, etc.) for a month, or something similar.
About 1B isk (value of a plex) for a month's training, so make skills about 500M per 1x multiple (roughly double).
Talk about an isk sink, people would lap it up.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2039
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:04:58 -
[618] - Quote
Skilo wrote:Skinzee wrote:Vrarrg wrote:No this is a horrible idea, if you are really hurting for money then listen to what we have been saying and get those things done. Instead of trying to make the game P2W or even F2P. There have been several good ideas over the past few years you guys pass up or don't even care about. This is a whole new low for CCP to reach. PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY THIS CHANGE WOULD MAKE IT PAY TO WIN? You are sitting on your char, the char you created and like. Suddenly FCs come with a new fleet ideia You need to fly Machariels You look into your char and think. damn 34 days for me to be able to fly those You can always buy a char ofc but on your char .... nope Now with this you can simply go and buy the skillpoints you need, place it on your char ... you can fly a machariel Pay To Win You're placing a very strange emphasis on the skills being on any particular character. Why?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Eternal Bob
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:05:01 -
[619] - Quote
Skilo wrote:Skinzee wrote:Vrarrg wrote:No this is a horrible idea, if you are really hurting for money then listen to what we have been saying and get those things done. Instead of trying to make the game P2W or even F2P. There have been several good ideas over the past few years you guys pass up or don't even care about. This is a whole new low for CCP to reach. PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY THIS CHANGE WOULD MAKE IT PAY TO WIN? You are sitting on your char, the char you created and like. Suddenly FCs come with a new fleet ideia You need to fly Machariels You look into your char and think. damn 34 days for me to be able to fly those You can always buy a char ofc but on your char .... nope Now with this you can simply go and buy the skillpoints you need, place it on your char ... you can fly a machariel Pay To Win
What are you winning in that scenario? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2039
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:05:56 -
[620] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:This protects the prestige associated with a long commitment to a character?
What a joke. It does the opposite.
Single worst change in the game ever. Fortunately, there is no such prestige. Everyone masturbates; it doesn't make it meaningful to others.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:07:10 -
[621] - Quote
As a bitter vet, owner of ~244mil sp on main char and probably ~1bil on all chars i think this is great idea. CCP please read carefully to understand why:
1. For 12 years I have been playing this game, did plenty of mistakes with missed training, getting podded without clone and losing BS 5, training without implants. Even had some inactivity periods. But for all those 12 years I have been looking at Dr Caymus being the guy with the most sp in the game. Wishing to take his place...
He had trained every day for 12 years, to his optimized attributes, with implants, without doing any (at least visible) mistakes to be on the top for all these years. Now with this new option I will simply use my inactive accounts (you can check their sp) and spend cash to take him over. I mean F*CK his 12 years of efforts I will give you money!!! (And that`s what this is about right?)
2. People will focus even more in ISK grinding, in order to buy chars, get the sp. I mean you can never have enough sp, right? You can hope it will not happen, but I assure it will. That means that less people will PVP and we (bitter vets) will enjoy pvp like in good old games with much smaller numbers. Get rid of the blobs \o/
3. As people focus on grinding, game will become more boring to them and during the time they will simply quit. Not everyone has persistence to train and pay for 12 years eh? So the player base will shrink and there will be less lag.
4. As more and more people "pay to win" and speed up with getting wanted sp to be able to fly the ships they dream about, they will sooner make their dreams come true and get bored. Easier the game is - faster it gets boring. More players quitting - hurrah!
5. People who like fair chances in games will quit as well. But who cares, **** on the poor people, just grinding isk is not enough. If they cannot spend the money in your game you do not need them anyway. Why should EVE be different from other p2w games. Why should it be niche game better be classic mediocre game but get the masses and the money eh?
6. As more and more people are quitting, some of my bitter vet friends will do as well. I am sure decent amount will quit due to this change as well, no one likes to see their efforts and money treated like sh*t.As in past, most of them will give me their assets and characters and by taking their sp i can be sure to remain top 1. And that is lot of isk and sp to get!
7. In the end when everyone quits out of boredom, I will be the real winner.Thank you CCP, sorry for your game that will die btw. Until then, my credit card is ready for this brilliant idea.
Now off with sarcasm. For those commenting that bazaar is already p2w: it does improve your "winning" a bit, by speeding some things up, but you can never take over people who invested years of efforts and subscription to be where they are. And that should be honored by CCP if they do not want to lose their face in greed for some more money. Because if you do not honor your vets today, players who are new now will know you will not honor them in couple of years either. And no one sticks long in such "relationships". Maybe some pathological cases, but they are not so common :)
And yes, as you probably already know there are people who will spend thousands of bucks on this game in order to accomplish what they want. So you will make some money, though it will be short term only. In the long run you are continuing to kill this pearl among the games...
I am not sure who came up with such "brilliant" idea without taking side effects in the consideration. I agree there should be ways to help new players. But not by killing the one of the essences of the game. Get advisers not just from GSM, most of them is there just because they have large alliances behind them, it is more of e-peen measuring (or at least it was in past, while I still hoped they would come up with some good ideas).
People who already have more than 20/30/50? mil sp will probably stick to the game anyway, they have already invested time and learned a lot about the game. You need to help just the focus group. I am sure you can run data analysis and check when the most of people quits and make separate strategies to try to keep them. I think the most quits with less than 10mil sp, but do your work and find it out yourself.
What made this game was its toughness, nowadays 1 month char can make isk easier than 10-20mil sp ones could do in past. They get skills boost, they do not have to train learning skills, etc. It is already MUCH easier. And you keep failing to keep them with all those new ideas? Then you need to find some other approach to get/keep them into the game, get new people involved.
Decade ago, EVE was elitist game, we laughed to other grinding MMORPGs. Now, EVE is slowly turning in one of them. Everyone wanted to PVP back then, even though it was much tougher to make isk for lost ships. Nowadays the most of the players are "scared" to do so as someone might see their losses and make fun of them. Or simply because they do not want their "losing" to be public, if there is no API they can always deny it :) They will rather wait for certain win scenarios so they can boost their kb stats. Which are rarely related to their skills... And meanwhile just grind isk for bigger ships, not realizing that "you are not your ship" rule :). Same will be with sp, they will rush to get more and more, without knowing that sp do not equal skills.
EVE has changed a lot over time, from taking pride in being different game among plenty of MMORPGs, harder and tougher, being unique, joy of our community compared to games dominated by 13 years old players etc. For some time it is taking direction to even with them and this seems like one of the final nails in the coffin. I am sorry for that :(
TL; DR
NO
Get better advisers.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1747
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:07:24 -
[622] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:... Trial accounts cant use this service... Which would mean you would have to sub the account. Which means you would have 9000x -ú10 to pay... and even then they cant sell the SP because they have to have over 5m SP... which is say... 4months...
so....
9000x4x-ú10 = -ú360,000 + The Skill Transfer fee...
Sounds like a great deal right? ^^
Or rich players can just gift game time to the characters in question. Sat in stations with +5's to farm SP. This will favour rich players far more. |
4chan SlashPOL
Implying Jita Prices Vaguely Opsec.
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:07:26 -
[623] - Quote
I for one don't like this. At the same time I am going to wait for more information to come out in order to make a better opinion |
Skilo
Higher Than Everest The-Culture
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:07:28 -
[624] - Quote
Eternal Bob wrote:Skilo wrote:Skinzee wrote:Vrarrg wrote:No this is a horrible idea, if you are really hurting for money then listen to what we have been saying and get those things done. Instead of trying to make the game P2W or even F2P. There have been several good ideas over the past few years you guys pass up or don't even care about. This is a whole new low for CCP to reach. PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY THIS CHANGE WOULD MAKE IT PAY TO WIN? You are sitting on your char, the char you created and like. Suddenly FCs come with a new fleet ideia You need to fly Machariels You look into your char and think. damn 34 days for me to be able to fly those You can always buy a char ofc but on your char .... nope Now with this you can simply go and buy the skillpoints you need, place it on your char ... you can fly a machariel Pay To Win What are you winning in that scenario?
You get to keep the char you want with the name you picked and the skillpoints you decided to train and not someone elses ideias/trainings/skillpoints |
Ssal
Temple of Boom
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:07:40 -
[625] - Quote
I don't like that change. The SP I gathered over time would become kind of meaningless, I could have just bought the very same SP. Sure I can do this today via Character Bazaar but that's something different. Being able to skill up any Char devalues SP-training over time. |
Eternal Bob
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:10:35 -
[626] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:I mean F*CK his 12 years of efforts
Explain what effort is required to gain skillpoints. |
Reiisha
Repracor Industries
771
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:10:42 -
[627] - Quote
Stupidly bad idea. This is going to get abused like no tomorrow.
Expect maxed 600m sp characters within days of the release of this feature.
At least make it so that 80 or 100m+ sp character don't gain any sp whatsoever via this feature.... I can understand the need to get up to 40-60m quickly, but above that.... I'll be honest, i like my vet status! :P
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
|
Elfaen Ethenwe
The Executives Executive Outcomes
42
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:10:50 -
[628] - Quote
You first kill sov war alienating a huge amount of your playerbase, in particular high sp characters. Then you make owning capitals utterly pointless with fozziesov. Then you basically allow anyone to buy skillpoints to be super elite I assume so that you still have some high sp characters?
This is pay to win. Its exactly what i protested against in Burn Jita back when the playerbase cared and will most likley be the fional nail in a long constructed coffin for eve. Not only that, if done via aurum it will sque the cost of plex over 2bil per plex over night, bankrupting all the plaqyers who still play by isk for plex. A fellow corpie of mine is currently paying 19bil per month in plex. If i plexed my accounts it would cost me easilly 14bil per month. I dont play this game to farm so ultimately i will cancel a large number of my accounts, lowering the number of accounts in game over-all as others do the same.
In fact, with the ability to dock my titan and nyx i could sell both of those accounts, or turn them into skillpoints for my 3 main PVP accounts and just have 3 charcters, cutting my plex bill to 6bil (assuming sp inflation) per month, and be no worse off in eve. But CCp will loose 7 accounts per month. Utterly stupid. |
Ami Hantaka
Bendebeukers Apocalypse Now.
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:11:01 -
[629] - Quote
I think there was also a discussion a long time ago to allow bonus attribute remapping for PLEX/Aurum, but it never happened. Could that also be reconsidered at this point? (As the charisma skills are still a ***** to train.) |
Eddie Mayer
DUST Expeditionary Team Good Sax
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:11:05 -
[630] - Quote
are you havin a laff !! Oh dear.... oh dear... |
|
Bed Bugg
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
22
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:11:08 -
[631] - Quote
I love this idea. |
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen Grumpy Space Bastards
243
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:11:33 -
[632] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:Skilo wrote:I've been playing this game since 2003
I'm a proud "owner" of a multi million skill point char who took me 12 years to get
To imagine someone can now just join eve and buy it of with real money will make me unsub all my accounts\ they already could numbnuts your sp count doesn't make you elite
Even worse he didn't read the post.
There's a big difference between an 80M SP char and a 200+M SP char. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2039
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:11:35 -
[633] - Quote
Reiisha wrote:Stupidly bad idea. This is going to get abused like no tomorrow.
Expect maxed 600m sp characters within days of the release of this feature.
At least make it so that 80 or 100m+ sp character don't gain any sp whatsoever via this feature.... I can understand the need to get up to 40-60m quickly, but above that.... I'll be honest, i like my vet status! :P What, exactly, is the abuse of having all 5s skills?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1816
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:11:43 -
[634] - Quote
Finally something useful in the store...
I am totally on the fence about this idea. To me, it is no different than the character bazaar - or using a PLEX for dual account training. I've been playing for 8.5 years and have enough SP to fly whatever I want. I do not see myself using this feature, but it may have an appeal for some people.
The only thing that worries me is the perception that this is one more way to milk an aging playerbase of money. I think at this point we are all simply trusting CCP that they do intend to somehow keep this game going forever.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
|
Eternal Bob
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:11:48 -
[635] - Quote
Skilo wrote:You get to keep the char you want with the name you picked and the skillpoints you decided to train and not someone elses ideias/trainings/skillpoints
So, not pay to win then. |
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:12:05 -
[636] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Skinzee wrote:... Trial accounts cant use this service... Which would mean you would have to sub the account. Which means you would have 9000x -ú10 to pay... and even then they cant sell the SP because they have to have over 5m SP... which is say... 4months...
so....
9000x4x-ú10 = -ú360,000 + The Skill Transfer fee...
Sounds like a great deal right? ^^ Or rich players can just gift game time to the characters in question. Sat in stations with +5's to farm SP. This will favour rich players far more.
There is still a massive cap for players over 50m SP...
Imagine how much money it would cost to boost a character to 200m SP..
Like seriously...
this would just be a nice boost for characters between 0-15 maybe 25m sp... I doubt someone would pay -ú20 for 50K SP! |
Cancel Align NOW
Maas Industries
614
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:12:08 -
[637] - Quote
This has the look and feel of a last gasp grab at cash before the lights are turned out. |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2706
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:12:50 -
[638] - Quote
Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:Tiranius Avetus wrote:So you will sell time (the most valuable resource in EVE) for money. ******** idea... Do they not have the Character Bazaar where you live? This argument is also disingenuous, There is a fixed number of character slots per account, and managing an increasing number of accounts becomes increasingly annoying/problematic. Practically speaking, If I want to fly Sleipnirs TODAY on my main, buying an extra character wouldn't be my solution. But with this system? Let's run some incursions for that dank sp! You're the one who insists on it being your "main." Main characters are practically meaningless in a world where the Character Bazaar exists.
Well that, and the number of characters per account is fixed. So the number of times I can use the character bazaar to fill my "sp needs" is 3*supported accounts. Keeping in mind that the average number of accounts per individual (last time the figure was released at some fanfest IIRC) was 2.2.
So, the typical player you can use the character bazaar 6 times to fill their needs and then you HAVE to train the old fashioned way. This new method? Farm those incursions for SP as long as you want.
You grind Gnolls in WoW for XP, you grind Sanshas in Eve for SP. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4032
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:12:59 -
[639] - Quote
Errr... No. I mean, no. Or yes. Maybe that's what EVE needs to die altogether?
Errr... no. As in, no, oh my God, please, no.
Because it's about selling skills, right? I got that right, right? Selling skills for AUR/ISK...
No. Oh no, no, no and no.
What is wrong with character transfer? They don't look like you like, maybe they're not the race or the gender you'd like or they have a silly corp story or some stupid name. Yes, the stupid name may be the real deal.
Why not just delete the name of the character being transfered and force the new owner to give it a new name?
Instead of... just... allowign us to tear our SP pool to pieces and sell it for money like used body parts?
No, please, no.
Don't do it.
It is a terrible idea and you should be ashamed to even ask.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Emiko P'eng
132
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:13:08 -
[640] - Quote
Humm!
EVE is all about consequences of your decisions and learning from the mistakes you make. No matter how painful
This is not a good idea.
But if you are adamant on going down this road then:
- Allow Skill Extraction only once a year, per account
- Allow Skill Injection only once a year, per account
Even then I feel it is still a step to far down the road to Pay to Win
If you want to 'improve' the character bazaar try these ideas:
- Convert it from a 'Forum' to a 'Shop' where Characters are listed until sold
- CCP hold all characters and money in escrow until both parties have stated they are happy with the transaction. Then the swap is done
- Sold characters are marked as such in their profile and this is visible in game, e.g. Character Created 02/12/2003, 1st Sold 12/01/2008, 2nd Sold 13/05/2015 etc. This is instead of allowing a name change.
- To curtail exploitation of the 'Sale Tag' you cannot sell characters to accounts that are at the same IP address as the sellers account
As for the sale of SP not a well conceived idea at all |
|
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
204
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:13:10 -
[641] - Quote
Most of the reasons have been stated well enough to represent me. No thank you.
Eve is about consequences and dedication.
This will change the fundamental core of why I've stuck with Eve for so long. |
metalravenous
Pyramid Celestial
100
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:13:33 -
[642] - Quote
This is a great idea!!!!
The sooner this happen the sooner the game is dead and all the people that have been saying told you so can tell you so. |
drunklies
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:14:01 -
[643] - Quote
Eternal Bob wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I mean F*CK his 12 years of efforts Explain what effort is required to gain skillpoints.
The effort involved in researching, planning, and implementing those 12 years of skills. I mean, someone spending 12 years perfecting something passive shouldn't count as having done anything.
Gardeners are by this logic, worthless. |
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen Grumpy Space Bastards
243
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:14:15 -
[644] - Quote
Monasucks wrote: You SIR are still in an n00b corp. Guess if you have tomorrow that 145m SP ? I and many other I know would not except you in that corps, for the next few years.
The "you post on a new char so you can't possibly have an old char or know anything about EVE" gets old. |
Helios Panala
54
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:14:16 -
[645] - Quote
What a terrible idea, the character bazaar was bad enough, but this? ... |
Hans Krieger
Malum Industria Adaptation.
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:14:56 -
[646] - Quote
Literally no different than buying a new char. Provides alternative to the crybabies asking to get rid of mining skills from 2004. Creates an SP market which can benefit new players who would eventually just save up the isk to buy a toon on the bazaar anyway. At least this way, their character remains their own. There's no aggregate gain/loss in SP. Someone still has to farm SP if you're going to farm/sell. Adds CCP revenue for a game which I still... sort of love.
Pay to win has been there since Plex M8s M8s M8s. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2039
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:15:13 -
[647] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:Tiranius Avetus wrote:So you will sell time (the most valuable resource in EVE) for money. ******** idea... Do they not have the Character Bazaar where you live? This argument is also disingenuous, There is a fixed number of character slots per account, and managing an increasing number of accounts becomes increasingly annoying/problematic. Practically speaking, If I want to fly Sleipnirs TODAY on my main, buying an extra character wouldn't be my solution. But with this system? Let's run some incursions for that dank sp! You're the one who insists on it being your "main." Main characters are practically meaningless in a world where the Character Bazaar exists. Well that, and the number of characters per account is fixed. So the number of times I can use the character bazaar to fill my "sp needs" is 3*supported accounts. Keeping in mind that the average number of accounts per individual (last time the figure was released at some fanfest IIRC) was 2.2. So, the typical player you can use the character bazaar 6 times to fill their needs and then you HAVE to train the old fashioned way. This new method? Farm those incursions for SP as long as you want. You grind Gnolls in WoW for XP, you grind Sanshas in Eve for SP. I guess they don't have buddy programs or allow unused accounts to expire where you live.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen Grumpy Space Bastards
243
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:15:25 -
[648] - Quote
Vogels wrote:If anything this positively enforces sticking with your character. Corp history and reputation is more important then overall SP in this game, and more people will want to keep the former if they can adjust the ladder.
The diminishing returns is interesting, but I believe it should be more about **how much SP in a timeframe** that gets dimished, not based off your total SP.
For instance - Someone who has 80m sp, but only wants to change 5m SP every few months should not feel the same isk sink as somebody who has 80m sp, but ones to trade out 40m of it in a week.
With this type of system, long term gameplay is rewarded, those wanting instant gratification or pay-to-win are penalized.
I like it. SP injection fatigue. 500k points/week or something similar, enough to basically double your training speed. |
Juliette Asanari
Saeder-Krupp Trading Division
71
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:15:31 -
[649] - Quote
Addendum: I'm too much of a socialist to support the (SP and probably ISK) rich siphoning from the (SP) poor ;-) |
Pistonbroke
Black Saints The Lost Fleet of Eve
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:16:01 -
[650] - Quote
This is a terrible idea.
Newer players who want to get ahead in the game can use the character bazaar to get a toon. Evidence of it changing hands is in the forums for all to see, so the disingenuous claptrap about bad rep does not hold water.
Losing the ability to gauge from the age of a character his potential skills will ruin various balances within the game, and will be very horrible for pirates, solo pvpers etc
Have you heard of "street sleepers"? these are super tuned cars which look to all intents and purposes like the standard vehicle that granny uses to run down to the supermarket to buy milk and cat-food. underneath however, they are turbocharged nutters. That's what you are proposing to create.
This is clearly a cash cow, and whilst we don't mind ccp having cash cows to milk, please bear in mind that we are already in the shed every month with our udders out.
Here is my alternative suggestion.
Have your SP reallocators, by all means, but make them only work for the toon the SPs are extracted from. Give them a delay (24 hrs?) so that you cant fly into the station a maxxed out BS pilot, and undock as a maxxed out carrier pilot 2 mins later. I'd happily take a 5-1 loss in the exchange rate to get rid of some of the more ******** things I've changed and to gain a small boost on some skills I would still like to gain.
Permit changes of this nature by all means, but don't create the ability for the already super rich and Highly skilled pilots to rattle up to 500m SPs within a month of the change. Likewise don't create the game breaking situation where a two month old character can be able to fly every sup-cap in the game to maximum proficiency, just because he has RL isk to burn, and wants to create a "street sleeper".
If this goes ahead, I for one will finally say enough already, and bid farewell to eve, and hello to one of the other games which are rapidly making steps ahead, such as Elite Dangerous, or Star Citizen. I'll wish you luck, and I won't look back. |
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2039
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:16:03 -
[651] - Quote
drunklies wrote:Eternal Bob wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I mean F*CK his 12 years of efforts Explain what effort is required to gain skillpoints. The effort involved in researching, planning, and implementing those 12 years of skills. I mean, someone spending 12 years perfecting something passive shouldn't count as having done anything. Gardeners are by this logic, worthless. What?
There's no planning or research involved with training. You plug things into evemon.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:16:05 -
[652] - Quote
Gospadin wrote:EvilweaselSA wrote:Skilo wrote:I've been playing this game since 2003
I'm a proud "owner" of a multi million skill point char who took me 12 years to get
To imagine someone can now just join eve and buy it of with real money will make me unsub all my accounts\ they already could numbnuts your sp count doesn't make you elite Even worse he didn't read the post. There's a big difference between an 80M SP char and a 200+M SP char.
Not if the 200M SP player bought the character and doesnt know how to fly a ship...
For example...
I, myself (2m SP currently)... Could jump into an executioner and kill a 200m SP pilot just because I manually piloted... other than orbit 500...
why? because SKILLPOINTS DOESNT MEAN 1/2 AS MUCH AS EXPERIENCE...
So all the vets crying saying this is Pay to Win.... SKILLPOINTS DOES NOT MEAN GAME EXPERIENCE...
Just means you can fly shinier ships to get blown up. |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2706
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:17:15 -
[653] - Quote
Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:
Well that, and the number of characters per account is fixed. So the number of times I can use the character bazaar to fill my "sp needs" is 3*supported accounts. Keeping in mind that the average number of accounts per individual (last time the figure was released at some fanfest IIRC) was 2.2.
So, the typical player you can use the character bazaar 6 times to fill their needs and then you HAVE to train the old fashioned way. This new method? Farm those incursions for SP as long as you want.
You grind Gnolls in WoW for XP, you grind Sanshas in Eve for SP.
I guess they don't have buddy programs or allow unused accounts to expire where you live. Most people I know don't have legions of unused accounts. A nuisance, impractical and inconvenient. |
Eternal Bob
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:17:34 -
[654] - Quote
drunklies wrote:Eternal Bob wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I mean F*CK his 12 years of efforts Explain what effort is required to gain skillpoints. The effort involved in researching, planning, and implementing those 12 years of skills. I mean, someone spending 12 years perfecting something passive shouldn't count as having done anything. Gardeners are by this logic, worthless.
The only 'effort' required to amass skill points is injecting the skill book and applying it to your queue. Please don't pretend there is any real effort involved. |
Hashtag Rare Pepe
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:17:42 -
[655] - Quote
Elfaen Ethenwe wrote:You first kill sov war alienating a huge amount of your playerbase, in particular high sp characters. Then you make owning capitals utterly pointless with fozziesov. Then you basically allow anyone to buy skillpoints to be super elite I assume so that you still have some high sp characters?
You can use your super hard earned capital sp and sell them with these Transneural Skill Packet if you wish. |
virm pasuul
FRISKY BUSINESS. No Handlebars.
321
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:18:12 -
[656] - Quote
The Players bought CCP pizzas :)
CCP shared the shiney new hardware details with us :)
Some fool at CCP thought that meant we were friends and could talk rationally.
A cheese move got posted on the dev blogs.
All the players are quitting!
No one can rationally explain why.
Emotions are running high.
Whoever posted this at CCP has a lot to learn about player psychology. There should have been far more kitten pictures in the dev blog post ! This is basic stuff CCP, how can you possibly not know that !?!?
The Jita monument is in danger. Again!
A player is intelligent and rational. The Players are f**king crazy lunatics.
This should be a haiku but I think I used too many syllabels. |
Skilo
Higher Than Everest The-Culture
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:18:32 -
[657] - Quote
Gospadin wrote:EvilweaselSA wrote:[quote=Skilo]I've been playing this game since 2003
I'm a proud "owner" of a multi million skill point char who took me 12 years to get
To imagine someone can now just join eve and buy it of with real money will make me unsub all my accounts\ they already could numbnuts your sp count doesn't make you elite
Please post where i said i was elite.
what i say is that pay to have skill on the char you want = pay to win
And that it's not the same of buying a char. its placing skills on the char you want
you can spin all you want that it doesn't change this fact
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2040
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:19:12 -
[658] - Quote
Pistonbroke wrote: If this goes ahead, I for one will finally say enough already, and bid farewell to eve, and hello to one of the other games which are rapidly making steps ahead, such as [...] Star Citizen
I, too, pin my hopes on a confidence scam whose primary purpose is to repay debts owed to an organized crime syndicate.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:19:54 -
[659] - Quote
One of the worst ideas I have ever heard. I would probably quit if this goes through. Not because I want to but because it fundamentally changes EVE for the worse.
The blog is disingenous. The problems pointed out could be solved, but are instead used to shape the narrative and attempt to create acceptance for a system that is more directly "pay2win" compared to the bazaar. It also offers flexibility that does not currently exist in that every character will have instant perfect relevant skills. |
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:20:10 -
[660] - Quote
Pistonbroke wrote:This is a terrible idea.
Newer players who want to get ahead in the game can use the character bazaar to get a toon. Evidence of it changing hands is in the forums for all to see, so the disingenuous claptrap about bad rep does not hold water.
Losing the ability to gauge from the age of a character his potential skills will ruin various balances within the game, and will be very horrible for pirates, solo pvpers etc
Have you heard of "street sleepers"? these are super tuned cars which look to all intents and purposes like the standard vehicle that granny uses to run down to the supermarket to buy milk and cat-food. underneath however, they are turbocharged nutters. That's what you are proposing to create.
This is clearly a cash cow, and whilst we don't mind ccp having cash cows to milk, please bear in mind that we are already in the shed every month with our udders out.
Here is my alternative suggestion.
Have your SP reallocators, by all means, but make them only work for the toon the SPs are extracted from. Give them a delay (24 hrs?) so that you cant fly into the station a maxxed out BS pilot, and undock as a maxxed out carrier pilot 2 mins later. I'd happily take a 5-1 loss in the exchange rate to get rid of some of the more ******** things I've changed and to gain a small boost on some skills I would still like to gain.
Permit changes of this nature by all means, but don't create the ability for the already super rich and Highly skilled pilots to rattle up to 500m SPs within a month of the change. Likewise don't create the game breaking situation where a two month old character can be able to fly every sup-cap in the game to maximum proficiency, just because he has RL isk to burn, and wants to create a "street sleeper".
If this goes ahead, I for one will finally say enough already, and bid farewell to eve, and hello to one of the other games which are rapidly making steps ahead, such as Elite Dangerous, or Star Citizen. I'll wish you luck, and I won't look back.
Basically, your arguement is purely based on PvP...
So what your saying is that you wont PvP with someone unless they are MUCH younger than you because you know you 'out skillpoint them'?
Coward... SKillpoints doesnt mean everything... I could beat you 1 on 1 in PvP with this character with 2m SP just because I have a counter fit.. or I out manually pilot you.. or I BLOB you...
If your going to leave because I get to fly a shiny ship in a month when it took you 3 months... Go then.. |
|
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
143
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:20:38 -
[661] - Quote
This will be a interesting one to follow :D
Personally, I am actually not that negative towards the change.
It is not that different from using the character bazaar, since you are just paying IRL money to gain SP. If I had to choose between the character bazaar and the devblog. I think the solution in the devblog is much more elegant and easy to use.
While it sure is a P2W element, it's one I can live with. It does not really impact my own enjoyment of the game, since it only lets other people accelerate their SP. I think it is on par with accelerated XP, or other boosters sold for IRL money. As said, it is something I can live with. As long as you are not crossing the barrier towards true P2W, where you can buy OP modules and ships for money.
At the end of the day, the total amount of SP a character has does not necessarily mean a better character. It just mean, you can fly a bigger amount of ships. However, there is still a cap, on how well you can fly that frigate (SP wise).
I am however a bit worried, that the change will not promote the right aspects of eve. This change, might give the impression that SP does matter more than it actually does. Or newcomers, will just skip the title, since it resembles a bit too much P2W (especially, if they get the impression that SP is extremely important).
I'd rather have seen an overall change of the skills. Rebalancing of prereqs and training time or just a total removal of SP in general (Such that the factor that guides what you can fly is only ISK, but the whole game would need a big revamp to accommodate this).
Though given the feedback in here, I don't think this will be implemented as proposed.
But it sure have increased my intake of popcorn these last few hours. |
Nuke Chicken
Infusion.
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:20:48 -
[662] - Quote
For you to even make this public for discussion has taken away from me any hoPe that this Company can ever return eve to a successful online game. Its over guys. R.I.P
(WTS Eve online to someone who has a ******* clue.) |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5452
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:21:04 -
[663] - Quote
Rookie skip undocks from Jita IV - 4 with a cargohold filled with "Transneural Skill Packets". |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2040
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:21:08 -
[664] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:
Well that, and the number of characters per account is fixed. So the number of times I can use the character bazaar to fill my "sp needs" is 3*supported accounts. Keeping in mind that the average number of accounts per individual (last time the figure was released at some fanfest IIRC) was 2.2.
So, the typical player you can use the character bazaar 6 times to fill their needs and then you HAVE to train the old fashioned way. This new method? Farm those incursions for SP as long as you want.
You grind Gnolls in WoW for XP, you grind Sanshas in Eve for SP.
I guess they don't have buddy programs or allow unused accounts to expire where you live. Most people I know don't have legions of unused accounts. A nuisance, impractical and inconvenient. How is it inconvenient? The account doesn't consume resources or take up space.
Also, you're significantly overestimating the number of times any one person would rush out to the character bazaar and snatch up a custom-made character just to stay ahead of the FOTM. Hell, after five years of playing, my main character can fly pretty much any subcap in eve, and I wasn't really even training specifically for any ship; i just started plugging in fives to fill the queue.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
drunklies
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
13
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Posted - 2015.10.15 19:21:30 -
[665] - Quote
Querns wrote:drunklies wrote:Eternal Bob wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I mean F*CK his 12 years of efforts Explain what effort is required to gain skillpoints. The effort involved in researching, planning, and implementing those 12 years of skills. I mean, someone spending 12 years perfecting something passive shouldn't count as having done anything. Gardeners are by this logic, worthless. What? There's no planning or research involved with training. You plug things into evemon.
Eve mon def existed 12 years ago.
Point is, they still went through the effort of doing it, and no one else has, not to that extent. |
S'Way
1218
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:21:36 -
[666] - Quote
So this is how it ends then ?
Would have hoped there was still someone left from the old days at CCP who could see why this is a terrible idea (for all the reasons already posted by many others).
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Stalking Mantis
No.Mercy Triumvirate.
877
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:21:41 -
[667] - Quote
The fact that CCP is even tossing this idea around tells me volumes on their current financial situation.
I had doubts before this post. Granted I took a year and three month break from EVE awhile back and came back to servers that had 15 to 20 thousand people on them instead of the 60 to 90 thousand people on them.
I can't blame CCP for trying to spin this idea. I really do believe they are desperate for cash. Speaking of cash how is all that cash you poured into DUST doing?
Like it or not CCP is losing money and they already alienated their veteran players from the Jita riots onwards to the latest Fozzie sov.
They really have put them selves into a situation where they really do need to appeal to new players as they already lost a huge chunk of players in the past year or two.
I really love this game, but the utter nonsense the devs keep thinking up instead of listening to the player base.
Case in point I assure you this was not even screened on the CSM before this blog.
EVE is in a downward spiral.....don't believe me? compare server numbers today with two years ago...I am talking more than a 300% drop. This is FORCING CCP to try to appeal to newer players, such changes might not appeal to us the people that have played EVE for years. But this tells me CCP is in alot of trouble due to years of mishandling the EVE community that they are now forced to think up things like this to appeal to new blood.
Amarr Liason Officer Extraordinare
-->Check Out Amarrian Vengeance/Amarr FW History from 2011 to 2014
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=352629&find=unread
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Nakito Kobara
Yamagata Syndicate United Forces Coalition
57
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Posted - 2015.10.15 19:21:53 -
[668] - Quote
Selling SP likes its some cheap w***e.
No.
Why not concentrate on improving the game experience? There is so much that can be done to improve and evolve Eve and this isn't it!
Yamagata Syndicate - Caldari State Faction Warfare, PvE, PvP. Join today!
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Monasucks
BLACK SQUADRON. RAZOR Alliance
151
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:21:54 -
[669] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:As a bitter vet, owner of ~244mil sp on main char and probably ~1bil on all chars i think this is great idea. CCP please read carefully to understand why:
1. For 12 years I have been playing this game, did plenty of mistakes with missed training, getting podded without clone and losing BS 5, training without implants. Even had some inactivity periods. But for all those 12 years I have been looking at Dr Caymus being the guy with the most sp in the game. Wishing to take his place...
He had trained every day for 12 years, to his optimized attributes, with implants, without doing any (at least visible) mistakes to be on the top for all these years. Now with this new option I will simply use my inactive accounts (you can check their sp) and spend cash to take him over. I mean F*CK his 12 years of efforts I will give you money!!! (And that`s what this is about right?)
2. People will focus even more in ISK grinding, in order to buy chars, get the sp. I mean you can never have enough sp, right? You can hope it will not happen, but I assure it will. That means that less people will PVP and we (bitter vets) will enjoy pvp like in good old games with much smaller numbers. Get rid of the blobs \o/
3. As people focus on grinding, game will become more boring to them and during the time they will simply quit. Not everyone has persistence to train and pay for 12 years eh? So the player base will shrink and there will be less lag.
4. As more and more people "pay to win" and speed up with getting wanted sp to be able to fly the ships they dream about, they will sooner make their dreams come true and get bored. Easier the game is - faster it gets boring. More players quitting - hurrah!
5. People who like fair chances in games will quit as well. But who cares, **** on the poor people, just grinding isk is not enough. If they cannot spend the money in your game you do not need them anyway. Why should EVE be different from other p2w games. Why should it be niche game better be classic mediocre game but get the masses and the money eh?
6. As more and more people are quitting, some of my bitter vet friends will do as well. I am sure decent amount will quit due to this change as well, no one likes to see their efforts and money treated like sh*t.As in past, most of them will give me their assets and characters and by taking their sp i can be sure to remain top 1. And that is lot of isk and sp to get!
7. In the end when everyone quits out of boredom, I will be the real winner.Thank you CCP, sorry for your game that will die btw. Until then, my credit card is ready for this brilliant idea.
Now off with sarcasm. For those commenting that bazaar is already p2w: it does improve your "winning" a bit, by speeding some things up, but you can never take over people who invested years of efforts and subscription to be where they are. And that should be honored by CCP if they do not want to lose their face in greed for some more money. Because if you do not honor your vets today, players who are new now will know you will not honor them in couple of years either. And no one sticks long in such "relationships". Maybe some pathological cases, but they are not so common :)
And yes, as you probably already know there are people who will spend thousands of bucks on this game in order to accomplish what they want. So you will make some money, though it will be short term only. In the long run you are continuing to kill this pearl among the games...
I am not sure who came up with such "brilliant" idea without taking side effects in the consideration. I agree there should be ways to help new players. But not by killing the one of the essences of the game. Get advisers not just from GSM, most of them is there just because they have large alliances behind them, it is more of e-peen measuring (or at least it was in past, while I still hoped they would come up with some good ideas).
People who already have more than 20/30/50? mil sp will probably stick to the game anyway, they have already invested time and learned a lot about the game. You need to help just the focus group. I am sure you can run data analysis and check when the most of people quits and make separate strategies to try to keep them. I think the most quits with less than 10mil sp, but do your work and find it out yourself.
What made this game was its toughness, nowadays 1 month char can make isk easier than 10-20mil sp ones could do in past. They get skills boost, they do not have to train learning skills, etc. It is already MUCH easier. And you keep failing to keep them with all those new ideas? Then you need to find some other approach to get/keep them into the game, get new people involved.
Decade ago, EVE was elitist game, we laughed to other grinding MMORPGs. Now, EVE is slowly turning in one of them. Everyone wanted to PVP back then, even though it was much tougher to make isk for lost ships. Nowadays the most of the players are "scared" to do so as someone might see their losses and make fun of them. Or simply because they do not want their "losing" to be public, if there is no API they can always deny it :) They will rather wait for certain win scenarios so they can boost their kb stats. Which are rarely related to their skills... And meanwhile just grind isk for bigger ships, not realizing that "you are not your ship" rule :). Same will be with sp, they will rush to get more and more, without knowing that sp do not equal skills.
EVE has changed a lot over time, from taking pride in being different game among plenty of MMORPGs, harder and tougher, being unique, joy of our community compared to games dominated by 13 years old players etc. For some time it is taking direction to even with them and this seems like one of the final nails in the coffin. I am sorry for that :(
TL; DR
NO
Get better advisers. +
Can I haz you're stuff?
[i][b]A good worker is a live worker. Free to live - and work! A bad worker is a dead worker; and vice versa. Don't be a bad worker; bad workers are slaves, and dead. Payday for good workers has been postponed indefinitely. Pa
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Boom Boom Longtime
EVE Corporation 6908469858 Heroes and Villains.
1216
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:22:04 -
[670] - Quote
Clearly CCP no longer have the integrity to self value and protect the core values and fundamentals of this game.
Concord Approved Trader
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:22:20 -
[671] - Quote
Eternal Bob wrote:drunklies wrote:Eternal Bob wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I mean F*CK his 12 years of efforts Explain what effort is required to gain skillpoints. The effort involved in researching, planning, and implementing those 12 years of skills. I mean, someone spending 12 years perfecting something passive shouldn't count as having done anything. Gardeners are by this logic, worthless. The only 'effort' required to amass skill points is injecting the skill book and applying it to your queue. Please don't pretend there is any real effort involved.
I will try to stay away from replying to troll alts but just so other know skill queue was not there since start. For years you had to time skills and plan when you will change it, wake up to do it etc.
Also there was no attributes remap either so you had to plan well how to develop your char.
And even after getting those it still takes effort to do the best possible planning to utilize the most of your attributes in the long run.
And if nothing else I am sure plenty would stop playing and training if they knew this will happen. Why should i spend hundreds / thousands bucks on subscription while having to bother about training when I can just come and drop the money and get everything i want?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Mastodontti
Intent Unspecified Executive Outcomes
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:22:43 -
[672] - Quote
heh eve online pay2win. eve online will die if you do this |
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
437
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:22:57 -
[673] - Quote
The more I've been thinking about this, the more I think I could deal with it, though with some heavy restrictions.
Limit it to 10 mil SP, and have all injections give 400k (it would be a net lose of 20% of the SP). It would take 25 injections, then, to reach the 10 mil SP level.
At 2,250 SP per hour (the current maxed training rate when not using attribute implants), this is about 185 days (six months). You can create some very nice characters with that, including specializing into a decent number of things. This would help new players get into the game faster without making it overly strong for older players.
Admittedly, older players (and probably chars) are going to dominate the market, and after the initial sell-off of unwanted skills, SP-mules (such as my industry alts) are going to be the primary source. It's still going to be a pretty one-sided flow of ISK, but it would at least provide a nice boost for new chars (and especially new players) without making it too easy for wealthy vets to create a day-old / multi-year-skilled character.
If there's really a drive to take it further than six months, give them up to a year, but with 40% loss of SP over 10 mil, allowing them to boost themselves up to 20 mil (about a year of training with a maxed remap and no implants). It would take ~60 injections to go from a starter char to 20 mil SP, and would be a net loss of 10 mil SP (or about 1/3 of the total).
Being able to boost yourself with ISK to 50 mil is simply too strong. Ten mil already gives some pretty solid characters when dedicated towards a purpose, or a very nice well-rounded char, while 20 mil provides access to a significant number of very nice characters.
Planning a trip to Thera? Check out http://eve-scout.com/ for a list of the current connections.
Once you've made your choice, join the EvE-Scout channel and request a scout to make sure your connection is clear!
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2040
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:23:08 -
[674] - Quote
drunklies wrote:Querns wrote:drunklies wrote:Eternal Bob wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I mean F*CK his 12 years of efforts Explain what effort is required to gain skillpoints. The effort involved in researching, planning, and implementing those 12 years of skills. I mean, someone spending 12 years perfecting something passive shouldn't count as having done anything. Gardeners are by this logic, worthless. What? There's no planning or research involved with training. You plug things into evemon. Eve mon def existed 12 years ago. Point is, they still went through the effort of doing it, and no one else has, not to that extent. Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
338
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:23:17 -
[675] - Quote
Josef Kennet wrote:Skinzee wrote:Vrarrg wrote:No this is a horrible idea, if you are really hurting for money then listen to what we have been saying and get those things done. Instead of trying to make the game P2W or even F2P. There have been several good ideas over the past few years you guys pass up or don't even care about. This is a whole new low for CCP to reach. PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY THIS CHANGE WOULD MAKE IT PAY TO WIN? Train over 9000 accounts for a month and sell SP to your main
You cannot, since you need to invest AUR in all those accounts to offroam all SP, probably you will not be @ a surplus.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
|
Hashtag Rare Pepe
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2015.10.15 19:23:24 -
[676] - Quote
Skilo wrote:[quote=Gospadin][quote=EvilweaselSA][quote=Skilo]I've been playing this game since 2003
I'm a proud "owner" of a multi million skill point char who took me 12 years to get
[...]
And that it's not the same of buying a char. its placing skills on the char you want
you can spin all you want that it doesn't change this fact
Only multi years old people can buy characters without being irresponsible with real $$$ money. The current system (character bazaar) is flawed and the riches get richer by being able to fill accounts with ratting ishtar characters at an exponential rate. How is this system more fair than the p2win alternative that is proposed today? |
Ben Musana
Black Nano Ops
18
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Posted - 2015.10.15 19:23:29 -
[677] - Quote
Tzu Wu wrote:Ben Musana wrote:First of all - i dont like the idea of trading skillpoints.
We all need our time for getting our skill goal to be reached. One of the major reason why im plaing eve since 2008 is the skill tree and there possibilities. Open this to the market will ruin the game.
A 5M SP Character could buy SP to speed things up. OK the character has now the skillpoints for there new 'toys' but still not the isk to buy it - well CCP offers PLEX for sell to serve this kind of problem. So CCP has no reason to lower the plex price and so on ... just think about it. - Some could say: CCP gets greedy!
A lot of ppl have 'unused' alts and are happy if they could 'transfer' there SP to there main, but is it worth a hole 'system of SP trade' for it with all there consequences ..... NO!
Electronic Arts has gone a similar way with Need 4 Speed World. They where to greedy - changed to much! Now the servers are offline!
Does i see the end on the horizon comming ? Is it still worth to play this game ? I have no answer for that, but i really hope that enough of us, will shoot jita if they bring that feature (SP trading) on the market!
Regards
Ben Musana I hate to break it to you and others who think like you but CCP is a business, it is their job to make money. All I hear from a lot of clueless EVE players is "CCP is greedy!, they want more money!". Without money to game doesn't operate. Not really hard to figure out. >but i really hope that enough of us, will shoot jita if they bring that feature (SP trading) on the market! Oh noes,not an in-game riot because EVE players don't understand the concept that it takes money to operate an MMO,the horror!
Sorry for thowing the ball back to you, but i always pay with real money for my subscription(s). I do not plex my accounts - so i spent more money for ccp then every game before. CCP is business for sure, but at a certain point we have to choose: Is CCP like Apple Inc. and we pay whatever they want, or will they fail will there business politics ....
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Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans
456
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:23:56 -
[678] - Quote
The only reason I see CCP wanting to do this is for more cash.
They have had too many accounts unsub over the past year to other mistakes that they made and are losing money.
So CCP thinks they can come up with a cash printing scheme to help them out.
Results will be more accounts unsub leading to less cash coming in.
How to fix it CCP?
Stop coming up with stupid ideas that **** off the majority of your player base & only cater to a few.
R.I.P. Vile Rat
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Barakach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
211
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:24:01 -
[679] - Quote
Captain Africa wrote:TheSmokingHertog wrote:Skinzee wrote:Skinzee wrote:I have a question for ALL people that say this is a bad idea...
--- WHAT EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON YOU AS A PILOT IF THIS WOULD ACTUALLY GO LIVE? ---
There is already an option to buy 0-200m SP characters... Character Bazaar - (Thats Pay2Win if you look at it that way)
Would love someone to actually give me a valid answer to this question. As far as I can see, there is none. I do... Bitter vets would have more people around them that could fly high end doctrines like they do. Just by roaming off their own SP. Lemme throw this right back at you ...I had to wait 6 years to get my character trained up to be 145 mil sp do you think it fair that you would be able to achieve that by just buying sp and whalla ? Infact just **** off...**** that im outta here
I can already buy 160m sp chars from the bazzar. I don't see the difference, as long as it's MUCH more expensive this possible new way. Like several factors more expensive and scales along with char prices. |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
338
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:24:06 -
[680] - Quote
Mastodontti wrote:heh eve online pay2win. eve online will die if you do this
Do you people even read the blog? the skillpool stays the same size, its not pay to win.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
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Stalking Mantis
No.Mercy Triumvirate.
877
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:24:45 -
[681] - Quote
Glasgow Dunlop wrote:Batten Down the hatches, Theres a 'hitstorm coming right this way . . . .
Personally P2W is bad, HOWEVER . . . if this was implimented in the same way as remaps ( ie you can remove skills once per year, and implant them, say twice) then it might be a better solution if you are really that keen to roll the dice.
This is not a bad idea. Problem is it does not generate cash for CCP like this suggestion does.
Amarr Liason Officer Extraordinare
-->Check Out Amarrian Vengeance/Amarr FW History from 2011 to 2014
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=352629&find=unread
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2044
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:24:57 -
[682] - Quote
Stalking Mantis wrote:The fact that CCP is even tossing this idea around tells me volumes on their current financial situation.
I had doubts before this post. Granted I took a year and three month break from EVE awhile back and came back to servers that had 15 to 20 thousand people on them instead of the 60 to 90 thousand people on them.
I can't blame CCP for trying to spin this idea. I really do believe they are desperate for cash. Speaking of cash how is all that cash you poured into DUST doing?
Like it or not CCP is losing money and they already alienated their veteran players from the Jita riots onwards to the latest Fozzie sov.
They really have put them selves into a situation where they really do need to appeal to new players as they already lost a huge chunk of players in the past year or two.
I really love this game, but the utter nonsense the devs keep thinking up instead of listening to the player base.
Case in point I assure you this was not even screened on the CSM before this blog.
EVE is in a downward spiral.....don't believe me? compare server numbers today with two years ago...I am talking more than a 300% drop. This is FORCING CCP to try to appeal to newer players, such changes might not appeal to us the people that have played EVE for years. But this tells me CCP is in alot of trouble due to years of mishandling the EVE community that they are now forced to think up things like this to appeal to new blood. You're overreacting quite a bit to the Aurum cost of the thing. Any transfer of SP between players HAS to have an associated drawdown on CCP's liabilities or else they are deliberately reducing their capacity to do so. This looks VERY bad to any investors they have. It's financial suicide and they'd be fools to consider it.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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drunklies
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:25:09 -
[683] - Quote
Quote: Explain what effort is required to gain skillpoints.
The effort involved in researching, planning, and implementing those 12 years of skills. I mean, someone spending 12 years perfecting something passive shouldn't count as having done anything.
Gardeners are by this logic, worthless. [/quote] What?
There's no planning or research involved with training. You plug things into evemon.[/quote]
Eve mon def existed 12 years ago.
Point is, they still went through the effort of doing it, and no one else has, not to that extent.[/quote] Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.[/quote]
Not having done so does not entitle those mewling newbies to anything either. |
Gneeznow
Chemically Unbalanced
117
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:26:02 -
[684] - Quote
I like it.
The old guard in this game have run it into a stagnant hole in the ground and those are the people who are flailing the hardest on the forums, this might actually bring in new people now that they will be able to catch up a little easier. |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2706
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:26:14 -
[685] - Quote
Querns wrote:
Also, you're significantly overestimating the number of times any one person would rush out to the character bazaar and snatch up a custom-made character just to stay ahead of the FOTM.
That's my whole point: people don't do it because it isn't practical in most cases.
But now - Farm some gno...Sanshas in the barrens..err high sec to get your SP to level up...errr get your skills to V and get that sweet new raid gea...errr FOTM ship. |
Terra Chrall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
53
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:26:44 -
[686] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside. Please also read this reminder on our forum rules ~ ISD Decoy I like the idea in general. May need to some tweaking to get to the right numbers etc. I am seeing some people equate this to ISK or money for free SP, but as I read it the SP is being traded. It does not come out of thin air. Someone earned SP and now is selling it. This seems very much in line with the character bazaar. Someone earned the SP on a character and then sells the character for someone else to use.
One person sounded shocked that this new approach could yield a person a perfect capital alt. Ummmm, that is what people buy off the character bazaar all the time.
I think some of the knee jerk negativity are from people not fully grasping the concept and perhaps from those not wanting competition with their character bazaar sales.
The end result of using this new service vs the bazaar is that you get greater control over the end result. It also offers a player a way to recoup a portion of their own SP and reallocate it, which is a feature I have seen asked for by some player in the past.
Depending on the cost will determine how balanced it is vs buying a "perfect capital pilot".
For many people I imagine it would be used in a limited way just to speed up a train every now and then. For those willing to dump billions in to get high SP could do essentially the same on the bazaar. |
Niriel Greez
Specimen 794 Project.Mayhem.
37
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:27:03 -
[687] - Quote
Limit it to characters below 10-20M SP and do not allow the SP to be allocated into cap, cyno, jump or similar skills so that you only benefit new players who actually NEED that initial SP.
Maybe allow for a little reallocation on existing characters without the ability to directly funnel SP into them. |
drunklies
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:28:03 -
[688] - Quote
Kyt Thrace wrote:The only reason I see CCP wanting to do this is for more cash.
They have had too many accounts unsub over the past year to other mistakes that they made and are losing money.
So CCP thinks they can come up with a cash printing scheme to help them out.
Results will be more accounts unsub leading to less cash coming in.
How to fix it CCP?
Stop coming up with stupid ideas that **** off the majority of your player base & only cater to a few.
So much this.
Fix the damned game, all these problems will fall away.
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
164
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:28:27 -
[689] - Quote
Nuke Chicken wrote:For you to even make this public for discussion has taken away from me any hoPe that this Company can ever return eve to a successful online game. Its over guys. R.I.P
(WTS Eve online to someone who has a ******* clue.) I've got to say this really does bash confidence that the devs in charge at CCP actually know what has made eve such a successful game. I am still waiting for some detail of that big presentation that Rise made at fanfest in which he stated that death was going to have serious consequences. But we get this instead...?
The game is becoming more and more meaningless with nothing else being added to balance this out. First we get SP loss removed (although not saying this couldn't be improved upon), then we get indestructible ship skins, and now we get this proposal that unwanted SP should be able to be transferred between characters.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Kaylin Drake
Profound Destiny
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:28:31 -
[690] - Quote
As I was reading through the post I was thinking.. yeahhh this is good. And then you mention the webpage and being able to browse characters to buy.. then making it in game. You had me at that point. I thought it was going to lead into pay to rename and remake the character after the transfer was complete.
Really that idea was good. But then you went in a totally horrible direction..
Why turn it into basically pay to win..? Whenever a gaming company does this I seriously roll my eyes and am thankful I play Eve.. except erm.. you guys are thinking of doing it too... I'm disappointed..
Please don't implement this.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2044
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:28:54 -
[691] - Quote
drunklies wrote:Not having done so does not entitle those mewling newbies to anything either. SP injectors aren't an entitlement. They're an option.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Eternal Bob
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
37
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Posted - 2015.10.15 19:28:59 -
[692] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:I will try to stay away from replying to troll alts but just so other know skill queue was not there since start. For years you had to time skills and plan when you will change it, wake up to do it etc.
Also there was no attributes remap either so you had to plan well how to develop your char.
And even after getting those it still takes effort to do the best possible planning to utilize the most of your attributes in the long run.
And if nothing else I am sure plenty would stop playing and training if they knew this will happen. Why should i spend hundreds / thousands bucks on subscription while having to bother about training when I can just come and drop the money and get everything i want?
Nothing you just said alters the fact that amassing skill points has never required any effort.
As for your last point, why are you still subscribed? The character bazaar has been a thing for some time now. |
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
654
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:29:04 -
[693] - Quote
Before anything even like this is even thought about being anywhere near the table of discussion, people deserve a much better idea where attributes, remapping, and anything that has to do with new players and SP are headed in the near future.
I think most people are pretty open to ideas that get people into the game a little faster. This sort of seems like blackmailing people into spending more money just to play, and just opens a huge Pandora's box of bad things.
Really does chip into character uniqueness, and day old characters will be in ships they really shouldn't be. I don't get what this does to the whole levelling a raven syndrome either, as if they have their big mission boat on day 1, they are going to get bored on day 6.
People who committed to capitals were disenfranchised.
Sovereignty has become competitive PvE.
And now characters themselves are malleable, losing some of their associated uniqueness. Like the one thing EvE still does faithfully is characters and personalities actually having weight, meaning, and gravitas. A great deal of this would be lost if characters were made to factory specifications.
Veteran players make New Eden go around. They are the teachers, the instigators, the patrons, the leaders, the storytellers, and the FCs that make the game....a game. Veterans that feel what they have is being eroded are not the most likely candidates to get people hyped about playing.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
|
Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force A T O N E M E N T
707
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:29:16 -
[694] - Quote
I am not completely against the idea on the personal level. It is essentially the same as buying a new character but 'cleaner' with my main issue being the ability to essentially up and 'retrain' your skills. Which makes the long term decision somewhat pointless. However, if you do decide to go forth with this system - vets and novices should be treated equally. I should not have to pay 10x more to improve my character as a nooby. There should never be a system that takes away from the 1:1 ratio of SP - People spent time and money subbing to gain those skill points, removing 70% of that because I'm a more skilled character does not seem ethical to me.
However, although I hold the middle ground with the above being a main issue. I do understand why people are 'outraged' - there is the fear that the game will become more focused on micro-transactions and cash cowing. Which in itself is a reasonable fear. For me personally this would open more options to improve my own personalized alts and main character. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2044
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:29:58 -
[695] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:
Also, you're significantly overestimating the number of times any one person would rush out to the character bazaar and snatch up a custom-made character just to stay ahead of the FOTM.
That's my whole point: people don't do it because it isn't practical in most cases. But now - Farm some gno...Sanshas in the barrens..err high sec to get your SP to level up...errr get your skills to V and get that sweet new raid gea...errr FOTM ship. This is not appreciably different than the Character Bazaar.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3005
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:30:44 -
[696] - Quote
It is clear that the majority pf posters are very much against this idea, which means that CCP rather than dropping the daft idea, will offer to tweak it.
After eight years in the game, I finally and with great sadness, get to say, "Eve is dying" and mean it if CCP persist with this hare-brained scheme.
Oh dear...
This is not a signature.
|
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2706
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:31:28 -
[697] - Quote
Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:
Also, you're significantly overestimating the number of times any one person would rush out to the character bazaar and snatch up a custom-made character just to stay ahead of the FOTM.
That's my whole point: people don't do it because it isn't practical in most cases. But now - Farm some gno...Sanshas in the barrens..err high sec to get your SP to level up...errr get your skills to V and get that sweet new raid gea...errr FOTM ship. This is not appreciably different than the Character Bazaar. Yes it is. The SP queue as opposed to grdinding gnolls in the barrens is one of the principal differences that separates eve from the lesser mmos. Removing that difference is a mistake and a loss. |
Sharps
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:31:51 -
[698] - Quote
I like this idea. I'm a new player and I'm willing to pay a little extra to be able to do the things I want to do.
You 10 year vets who have won Eve by PLEXing all your accounts and playing for free, why wouldn't you want me to give CCP my money? They have to get RL money from somewhere, and I sure as hell ain't buying SKINs. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3514
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:31:52 -
[699] - Quote
Stalking Mantis wrote:
EVE is in a downward spiral.....don't believe me? compare server numbers today with two years ago...I am talking more than a 300% drop. This is FORCING CCP to try to appeal to newer players, such changes might not appeal to us the people that have played EVE for years. But this tells me CCP is in alot of trouble due to years of mishandling the EVE community that they are now forced to think up things like this to appeal to new blood.
Heh...no not 300%.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Nogginz
BLACK SQUADRON. RAZOR Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:32:22 -
[700] - Quote
ive been following this post since when it first popped up, it is evident that the vast majority of people replying to this post are against this idea.
If CCP implements this then its obvious CCP does not listen to its players. |
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2044
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:32:22 -
[701] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote: And now characters themselves are malleable, losing some of their associated uniqueness. Like the one thing EvE still does faithfully is characters and personalities actually having weight, meaning, and gravitas. A great deal of this would be lost if characters were made to factory specifications.
Veteran players make New Eden go around. They are the teachers, the instigators, the patrons, the leaders, the storytellers, and the FCs that make the game....a game. Veterans that feel what they have is being eroded are not the most likely candidates to get people hyped about playing.
You live in a very strange world. The Eve I experience is rife with purchased characters and one's sense of identity is only tied to one's jabber account or forums account.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Draugo Rana
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
80
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:32:26 -
[702] - Quote
No no...NO. Please don't. Just don't.
Buying and selling skill points? Cheapen and reduce the entire skill training and character development process to nothing more than tradable tokens? Why not just abolish skills entirely and make every character fully trained and alike from creation?
Skill levels and their training is not only a measurement of character's abilities and power, it's also a means to give trainees something to look forward to, a sense of accomplishment when they reach it, require some planning and making some choices from day one. Making skills tradable throws most of that away. It makes skills seems much less valuable if you can just create a new character, throw some $$$ at it and you're done.
I was never super excited about the character bazaar but it was tolerable, slicing up characters and selling it as pieces is most definitely not. I can also live with the ability of trading characters using an in game interface while giving the buyer the ability to rename it, but that is as far as I think it should go.
And yes, older characters who gained their skills the old fashioned way by logging in every day and adjusting their queues should be rightfully pissed if this idiocy ever finds its way to the live servers.
Masuat'aa Matari is recruiting Minmatar freedom fighters
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:33:03 -
[703] - Quote
Querns wrote: Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.
Consistency is what matters. Loyalty. You do not change fundamentals after 12 years. Because that way you trick player base, ie your customers. I am sure if they started like p2w game, EVE would be dead long ago, I doubt it would even make 5 years.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2044
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:33:09 -
[704] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:It is clear that the majority pf posters are very much against this idea, which means that CCP rather than dropping the daft idea, will offer to tweak it.
After eight years in the game, I finally and with great sadness, get to say, "Eve is dying" and mean it if CCP persist with this hare-brained scheme.
Oh dear... Ah, yes, good ol' argumentum ad populum. An old friend, come to visit.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Davir Sometaww
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:33:26 -
[705] - Quote
Well it could be modified.
To where you can pay a certain fee in plex for a "name change" or "skill revamp".
Proposal: Skill Revamp;
-All your SP is allocated into unallocated skillpoints. -This will have a 1 year Cooldown. -Cost: 2-3 Plex or certain equivalent $$.
Why:
-Everybody makes mistakes. This lets a player start with a clean slate on what ships he/she wants to fly or do in his/her career in eve online. -One year cooldown - ensures that this doesn't get "abused".
Proposal: Name Change:
-Change your characters name -Note: will still say your old name on new tab of : Past History/Past Employment -Cost: 2 Plex? Can be adjusted as needed. -This will have a 6 month - 1 year cooldown?
Why:
-Everybody makes mistakes. This lets the player that named his character something stupid like: "Fat Kid Loves Cake" to something serious if he/she wanted too. -You are still able to see the past history of the name. -long cooldown - ensures that this doesn't get "abused". |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2044
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:33:58 -
[706] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:
Also, you're significantly overestimating the number of times any one person would rush out to the character bazaar and snatch up a custom-made character just to stay ahead of the FOTM.
That's my whole point: people don't do it because it isn't practical in most cases. But now - Farm some gno...Sanshas in the barrens..err high sec to get your SP to level up...errr get your skills to V and get that sweet new raid gea...errr FOTM ship. This is not appreciably different than the Character Bazaar. Yes it is. The SP queue, as opposed to grdinding gnolls in the barrens, is one of the principal differences that separates eve from the lesser mmos. Removing that difference in the name of accessibility is a mistake and a loss. The SP queue can be bypassed by the Character Bazaar. You can even fund these purchases on your first day by converting purchased PLEX into ISK.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
338
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:34:54 -
[707] - Quote
S'Way wrote:So this is how it ends then ?
Would have hoped there was still someone left from the old days at CCP who could see why this is a terrible idea (for all the reasons already posted by many others).
Himlar is still CEO, get your facts strait. And most negative people did not really read the blog, or thought before penning stuff down.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
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Eternal Bob
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:35:08 -
[708] - Quote
Interesting how the most popular reactions to this on /r/eve have been the positive ones. Luckily this forum isn't the only place devs go for feedback. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2044
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:35:20 -
[709] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote: Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.
Consistency is what matters. Loyalty. You do not change fundamentals after 12 years. Because that way you trick player base, ie your customers. I am sure if they started like p2w game, EVE would be dead long ago, I doubt it would even make 5 years. Frankly, not really. An ancient player's subscription is not worth appreciably more than a new player's.
You could argue that older players have more accounts, but given that the account/player ratio is about 1.5, this falls flat on the grand scale.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
drunklies
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:35:31 -
[710] - Quote
Querns wrote:drunklies wrote:Not having done so does not entitle those mewling newbies to anything either. SP injectors aren't an entitlement. They're an option.
An option born of entitlement, of people wanting to bypass the hoops that everyone else jumped through.
And before someone jumps in saying something about wanting to make everyone suffer, you are missing the point. It's the experience that is valuable, not the 'suffering'. Removing the need for that experience means you are devaluing the quality of the players available, simply because they do not have the experience that other players do.
|
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Kon Kre8r
Konz Korp
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:35:39 -
[711] - Quote
sharpscg wrote:I don't like this.
The way buying characters works right now is completely fine.
The way it is now is NOT fine. This new option as suggested so far -- also NOT fine.
What we DO need -- Simple fixes CCP REFUSES to fix -- Black Ops for instance -- Still can NOT use covert ops cloak!
The GOOD IDEA --> New structures - YAY The Bad --> New Fozzie Sov -- Booo
U need us to spend more money? Regain our trust and faith so that we proudly buy things like Posters, shirts, etc. |
Guillame Herschel
Quantum Cats Syndicate Spaceship Bebop
71
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:35:55 -
[712] - Quote
Does this mean I can finally put the SP to use that I spent on Fast Talk way back in 2003?
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deathpain
The Scope Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:36:01 -
[713] - Quote
QUESTION:
How did this go from an idea, through managment, then the CSM, all the way to being a devblog without even one person stopping and thinking, hmm I wonder what the player bass will think of this idiotic idea?
OPINION:
I for one hate this idea with a passion, it's worse then the system we already have. You could improve the character bazaar so much easier without all this...
SUGGESTION:
Create a in game area to buy characters, ok that's fine. Now create a system to rename characters at a additional plex cost. Done everything that you highlighted as problems in one go, and no one gets upset. This will require much less work to implement and also you get another income stream from charachter renaming.
MY EXPERIENCE:
I have bought a charachter in the past, however at no point did I feel I was being ripped off or being sold a shady charachter since I used this party tools like every sensible person who buys a toon does. I knew how much i was worth as I appraised the toon, so I knew I was getting a decent deal, and I checked the charachter history to see what it had got up to in the past.
So people buying toons who know the game are going to be safe, but those who don't know the game... Should they be buying a toon at all? In my opinion no. My main I love as I built him from scratch, there is pride in the skill points that I put effort into. Yes I did buy a alt, but I still had to work from the very beginning trying to make serious money selling shuttles all the way to ratting in wormholes with my pimped out proteus. So I think that an easy route to all that sp is a bad thing as all those mistakes you make on the way to getting that sp is invaluable and I wouldn't trade it for anything.
ADDITIONALLY:
Also nullified interceptors is dumb, yeah I know it has nothing to do with this devblog but I'm going to keep saying it till someone finally listens...
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Josef Djugashvilis
3005
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:36:28 -
[714] - Quote
Sharps wrote:I like this idea. I'm a new player and I'm willing to pay a little extra to be able to do the things I want to do.
You 10 year vets who have won Eve by PLEXing all your accounts and playing for free, why wouldn't you want me to give CCP my money? They have to get RL money from somewhere, and I sure as hell ain't buying SKINs.
I have never bought a PLEX nor used the character bazaar.
Annual sub all the way.
This is not a signature.
|
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2706
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:36:39 -
[715] - Quote
Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:
Also, you're significantly overestimating the number of times any one person would rush out to the character bazaar and snatch up a custom-made character just to stay ahead of the FOTM.
That's my whole point: people don't do it because it isn't practical in most cases. But now - Farm some gno...Sanshas in the barrens..err high sec to get your SP to level up...errr get your skills to V and get that sweet new raid gea...errr FOTM ship. This is not appreciably different than the Character Bazaar. Yes it is. The SP queue, as opposed to grdinding gnolls in the barrens, is one of the principal differences that separates eve from the lesser mmos. Removing that difference in the name of accessibility is a mistake and a loss. The SP queue can be bypassed by the Character Bazaar. You can even fund these purchases on your first day by converting purchased PLEX into ISK. No, it can't, not practically anyway- you yourself gave the perfect example showing why it's impractical in the above nested quote.
You're talking about buying a whole new character, I'm talking about improving an existing one. There's a difference, a big one. If I have 2 freighter alts, and want a jump freighter capable character, I'd rather improve one of the existing freighter alts then buy a brand new character. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2047
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:37:26 -
[716] - Quote
drunklies wrote:Querns wrote:drunklies wrote:Not having done so does not entitle those mewling newbies to anything either. SP injectors aren't an entitlement. They're an option. An option born of entitlement, of people wanting to bypass the hoops that everyone else jumped through. And before someone jumps in saying something about wanting to make everyone suffer, you are missing the point. It's the experience that is valuable, not the 'suffering'. Removing the need for that experience means you are devaluing the quality of the players available, simply because they do not have the experience that other players do. The fact that an older player had to jump through hoops does not somehow make it required that new players also have to jump through the same hoops. Your suffering is not sacrosanct or even meaningful at all.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Aren Dar
EVE University Ivy League
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:37:53 -
[717] - Quote
One of the things I've observed in dealing with newer players is the number of people who have dropped out over the years because they joined with the assumption that they could grind game time. Exacerbated when there were a lot of people in a single group who were of the same mentality - eventually lots of them burnt out.
Ironically higher plex prices has made this kind of behavior less common, as it has become less realistic.
I wonder if one of the unintended consequences of this change - if effected - would be that new players would end up constantly micro-grinding for more SP. |
oohthey ioh
Republic University Minmatar Republic
29
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:38:05 -
[718] - Quote
You could do it so people have to split trained skills in half, and can only use them to on the skill they was split form. The value will be based per skill not per so many SP. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2047
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:38:50 -
[719] - Quote
deathpain wrote:QUESTION:
How did this go from an idea, through managment, then the CSM, all the way to being a devblog without even one person stopping and thinking, hmm I wonder what the player bass will think of this idiotic idea?
Community feedback has sharply limited value, especially in the case where an entitlement is being threatened.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
825
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:39:11 -
[720] - Quote
Alladir wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:So, if CCP instigates this, will Character Trading be removed? This is supposed to be the replacement for the Character Bazaar right? So why would we need Character Trading anymore? Otherwise, this will lead to a great new form of Character trading where we can easily build specced toons for a specific function, and then sell them. Depending on the final costs, which will probably be rather high, I think we can look at toons selling for a bit more. Someone on reddit ran approx math that buying char is twice as cheap when it comes to isk/sp cost compared to new system so no, they will not replace market.
But you miss the fact that people will change the cost based on market. |
|
Hashtag Rare Pepe
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:39:58 -
[721] - Quote
Or make it that we earn some sort of lp to buy these Skill Packet with pvp kills. That way people will undock, everyone will get ""content"" and it's not pay 2 win.
In any cases the progression is too slow and the gap between fresh characters and veterans is too big. |
Mai Ling Ravencroft
Duragon Pioneer Group Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:40:12 -
[722] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Eternal Bob wrote:drunklies wrote:Eternal Bob wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I mean F*CK his 12 years of efforts Explain what effort is required to gain skillpoints. The effort involved in researching, planning, and implementing those 12 years of skills. I mean, someone spending 12 years perfecting something passive shouldn't count as having done anything. Gardeners are by this logic, worthless. The only 'effort' required to amass skill points is injecting the skill book and applying it to your queue. Please don't pretend there is any real effort involved. I will try to stay away from replying to troll alts but just so other know skill queue was not there since start. For years you had to time skills and plan when you will change it, wake up to do it etc. Also there was no attributes remap either so you had to plan well how to develop your char. And even after getting those it still takes effort to do the best possible planning to utilize the most of your attributes in the long run. And if nothing else I am sure plenty would stop playing and training if they knew this will happen. Why should i spend hundreds / thousands bucks on subscription while having to bother about training when I can just come and drop the money and get everything i want?
Good point, next time I wanna take a break, unsub, then when I wanna come back, resub, use saved cash to PLEX and but the SP I didn't train, and perfectly jump into that new doctrine they added while I was away. This way I don't have to train for what I think will be needed, I can just train exactly what I am missing then. |
Jon Dekker
Dekker Corporation
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:40:26 -
[723] - Quote
So will characters be destroyed and biomassed when you extract SP? I would think that that would probably be better, or to enact some penalty on the donating character.
Idunno though, this is very similar to giving and selling blood. Sure, there might be some perfect cap pilots but someone somewhere is putting in the effort. They are still paying for a character slot with real $$ to generate those SP. CCP can then throttle the seeding of the SP extraction packs and maintain a price for SP.
In EVE, SP isn't an instant WIN, remember? So it's not quite like getting a level 99 character on day 1. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2047
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:40:39 -
[724] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:[ You're talking about buying a whole new character, I'm talking about improving an existing one. There's a difference, a big one. There really isn't.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
drunklies
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:41:42 -
[725] - Quote
Querns wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote: Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.
Consistency is what matters. Loyalty. You do not change fundamentals after 12 years. Because that way you trick player base, ie your customers. I am sure if they started like p2w game, EVE would be dead long ago, I doubt it would even make 5 years. Frankly, not really. An ancient player's subscription is not worth appreciably more than a new player's. You could argue that older players have more accounts, but given that the account/player ratio is about 1.5, this falls flat on the grand scale.
It does go deeper then that though. Older players for the back bone of eve in many ways, they provide the services, the support, industry, corp management an a bunch of stuff i dont understand.
Yes, new players could do this, and might, but don't say that old players are worth only as much as new. At the very least they have the benefit of proven loyalty. |
Kilian Katar
Tenth Company
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:41:59 -
[726] - Quote
Davir Sometaww wrote:Well it could be modified.
To where you can pay a certain fee in plex for a "name change" or "skill revamp".
Proposal: Skill Revamp;
-All your SP is allocated into unallocated skillpoints. -This will have a 1 year Cooldown. -Cost: 2-3 Plex or certain equivalent $$.
Why:
-Everybody makes mistakes. This lets a player start with a clean slate on what ships he/she wants to fly or do in his/her career in eve online. -One year cooldown - ensures that this doesn't get "abused".
Proposal: Name Change:
-Change your characters name -Note: will still say your old name on new tab of : Past History/Past Employment -Cost: 2 Plex? Can be adjusted as needed. -This will have a 6 month - 1 year cooldown?
Why:
-Everybody makes mistakes. This lets the player that named his character something stupid like: "Fat Kid Loves Cake" to something serious if he/she wanted too. -You are still able to see the past history of the name. -long cooldown - ensures that this doesn't get "abused".
You single handily came out with more bright ideas than CCP has in a good 6 months or more |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:43:09 -
[727] - Quote
Querns wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote: Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.
Consistency is what matters. Loyalty. You do not change fundamentals after 12 years. Because that way you trick player base, ie your customers. I am sure if they started like p2w game, EVE would be dead long ago, I doubt it would even make 5 years. Frankly, not really. An ancient player's subscription is not worth appreciably more than a new player's. You could argue that older players have more accounts, but given that the account/player ratio is about 1.5, this falls flat on the grand scale.
Frankly, then you do not know much about how business works. Regardless is it game or not. As we are all customers here. Customer`s loyalty is something companies work on for decades. And you do not get customers loyalty without being consistent.
If company does not have respect for existing customers, by changing the fundamentals which are one of the reasons those customer became loyal then it will not have respect for new ones either. And no matter how much you spam/argue/challenge on this forum in order to get some personal gain, it cannot influence how that relationship works.
While I agree that vets subscription is not worth even a single dime more than new players, still, people who spent thousands of bucks through years are one of the main reasons this game still exists. Because way more people got in the game by invitations, referrals, buzz created by players than CCP marketing activities. Loyal customers made it. And they should be treated with respect.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
165
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:43:18 -
[728] - Quote
Eternal Bob wrote:Interesting how the most popular reactions to this on /r/eve have been the positive ones. Luckily this forum isn't the only place devs go for feedback. It isn't interesting of surprising, Redit has always been a forum for the propagation of terrible ideas. It is mostly a cesspit. Just look at the recent ship skin bug debacle to get an idea of the type of entitled and short sighted suggestions they come out with. If I were CCP I'd stay well away from taking any suggestions off redit if they want to see eve in a good place for many years to come. If they want a short term cash grab though then redit is the perfect place.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2047
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:43:53 -
[729] - Quote
drunklies wrote:Querns wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote: Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.
Consistency is what matters. Loyalty. You do not change fundamentals after 12 years. Because that way you trick player base, ie your customers. I am sure if they started like p2w game, EVE would be dead long ago, I doubt it would even make 5 years. Frankly, not really. An ancient player's subscription is not worth appreciably more than a new player's. You could argue that older players have more accounts, but given that the account/player ratio is about 1.5, this falls flat on the grand scale. It does go deeper then that though. Older players for the back bone of eve in many ways, they provide the services, the support, industry, corp management an a bunch of stuff i dont understand. Yes, new players could do this, and might, but don't say that old players are worth only as much as new. At the very least they have the benefit of proven loyalty. Even if this is true, only a very small, very foolish portion of old players actually believe that having a big SP number matters or that having to alarm clock to start a new skill matters in TYOOL 2015. We can suffer their loss easily.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Monasucks
BLACK SQUADRON. RAZOR Alliance
151
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:43:54 -
[730] - Quote
So CCP is in need of money right?
How about we the player help them to introduce something, which does not affect the essential gameplay that much - but will bring them money?
Before I will put up my ideas for this - let se the causes of the losing money?
SOV is now PVE not PVP - this needs to be fixed in the sooner feature by CCP - but will only bring money on the long term High Skills for PVP e.g. Battleships / Capitals are now mostly wasted - as they can't be used anymore by the players with the changes. In anyway CCP needs to come up with something new or change it back - but that will bring money in the longterm - right not in the short term.
Ideas:
-Allow neural Remaps to be bought for plex ( honestly this will not have a hard affect, and we ( the high SP players should not be oppose it ) but limit it to once every two monthes or something like this -Allow players below 10-15m SP to "flush" all there SP for 2-6 plexes and they can reallocate them ( Skill books will end up in the hangar or will still be there but trained and 0 ) -Maybe give this option to older players let's say 20m SP will cost +2 Plexes, 30m SP cost +4 Plexes etc. So it's incredibly expensive plus this skillpoints cannot be transfered. But stop this options latest at 40m SP. -Give those P2W Players a little option to win: -New Accounts, which are new ( e.g. CC, Paypalaccount etc. is not in your Database ) can buy only 1x a boost of double speed skilling for the first month
Another point - as older EVE gets - as harder it will be for new players, so give them some advantage, like for the first 4 Weeks + 10 at each attribute and than the fatigue hits, if he than continues for another month, give him the option to pay for +8, and in the third month for +6 and after that this options is gone.
But never ever make SP sell able like you indented in that blog post. You make the risk of buying a character worse less. This should still be a high risk. ( standing, wasted SP you don't need etc. )
Can I haz you're stuff?
[i][b]A good worker is a live worker. Free to live - and work! A bad worker is a dead worker; and vice versa. Don't be a bad worker; bad workers are slaves, and dead. Payday for good workers has been postponed indefinitely. Pa
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drunklies
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:44:35 -
[731] - Quote
Davir Sometaww wrote:Well it could be modified.
To where you can pay a certain fee in plex for a "name change" or "skill revamp".
Proposal: Skill Revamp;
-All your SP is allocated into unallocated skillpoints. -This will have a 1 year Cooldown. -Cost: 2-3 Plex or certain equivalent $$.
Why:
-Everybody makes mistakes. This lets a player start with a clean slate on what ships he/she wants to fly or do in his/her career in eve online. -One year cooldown - ensures that this doesn't get "abused".
Proposal: Name Change:
-Change your characters name -Note: will still say your old name on new tab of : Past History/Past Employment -Cost: 2 Plex? Can be adjusted as needed. -This will have a 6 month - 1 year cooldown?
Why:
-Everybody makes mistakes. This lets the player that named his character something stupid like: "Fat Kid Loves Cake" to something serious if he/she wanted too. -You are still able to see the past history of the name. -long cooldown - ensures that this doesn't get "abused".
This would be a far better system, allowing for repairing of **** ups (exhumers 5 really was a waste), but without allowing for rampant abuse as CCP's proposed system does. |
Hashtag Rare Pepe
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:45:02 -
[732] - Quote
Kilian Katar wrote:Davir Sometaww wrote:Well it could be modified.
To where you can pay a certain fee in plex for a "name change" or "skill revamp".
Proposal: Skill Revamp;
-All your SP is allocated into unallocated skillpoints. -This will have a 1 year Cooldown. -Cost: 2-3 Plex or certain equivalent $$.
Why:
-Everybody makes mistakes. This lets a player start with a clean slate on what ships he/she wants to fly or do in his/her career in eve online. -One year cooldown - ensures that this doesn't get "abused".
Proposal: Name Change:
-Change your characters name -Note: will still say your old name on new tab of : Past History/Past Employment -Cost: 2 Plex? Can be adjusted as needed. -This will have a 6 month - 1 year cooldown?
Why:
-Everybody makes mistakes. This lets the player that named his character something stupid like: "Fat Kid Loves Cake" to something serious if he/she wanted too. -You are still able to see the past history of the name. -long cooldown - ensures that this doesn't get "abused". You single handily came out with more bright ideas than CCP has in a good 6 months or more
Nice samef**ging. Make it more obvious next time. |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2706
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:45:03 -
[733] - Quote
Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: You're talking about buying a whole new character, I'm talking about improving an existing one. There's a difference, a big one.
There really isn't. Then why don't more people buy a new character everytime the FOTM changes. You said it yourself:
Querns wrote:
Also, you're significantly overestimating the number of times any one person would rush out to the character bazaar and snatch up a custom-made character just to stay ahead of the FOTM.
Big difference between committing to a whole new character and farming some sanshas to get more SP for an existing, established character.
Grinding gnolls to level up vs. Character bazaar. Not the same thing, not at all. |
Kilian Katar
Tenth Company
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:45:04 -
[734] - Quote
okay lets put this simply, if you think this is a bad idea "like" this post.
CCP Rise to become CCP BadIdea |
Grimmash
New Jovian Exploration Department A Band Apart.
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:45:09 -
[735] - Quote
I do not like this idea. If Eve is to be persistent and about choices, this doesn't really fit. This change will make character age meaningless. Not in the "I've played longer than you, grrr!" sense, but in a very real recruiting and security sense, this diminishes tools for validating players by reputation, by age and, by proxy, experience.
It also allows for spies, corp thieves, etc, to break out of the persistence cycle of needing to go dormant, or train an alt, or start fresh, or keep a stable of clean accounts handy and training to meet the infiltration needs. You could clear a corp out, pump the skills into a new alt with the isk you got, and move on. We'll have no way to know if that new bro with high skills is just someone who paid to get ahead, or someone who is utilizing the system to accelerate the process of conniving into the corp the repeat the cycle. For many corps, I imagine any character with an unbalanced time v sp profile will immediately be rejected. In game where trust and reputations are a big part of things, this is not a step that will help new players find the groups they need to join to really enjoy Eve. This system will just make all characters, and especially young characters, even more suspect.
There are a lot of cool things you could do and charge a fee for. You could let players pay money to reset skills already earned. You could let players pay to alter aspects of a character. You could drag the out of game bazaar into an in-game market.
If the time it takes to train skills is a real barrier to new players, then perhaps charging to get more skills is not the answer, but reevaluating how skills work and how they accrue over time needs an entire overhaul. |
Nafensoriel
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
129
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:45:14 -
[736] - Quote
The general nature of this type of moniterization lead to extremely abusive scenarios among player bases.
Skill packets would be far harder to trace for RMT. By allowing this type of item you are opening an unregulated floodgate on RMT SP conversions that you will be flat out unable to track because they are never converted to isk.
The only effect this idea will cause is hyperinflation and a more depressive NPE.
Not supported. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2047
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:46:04 -
[737] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote: Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.
Consistency is what matters. Loyalty. You do not change fundamentals after 12 years. Because that way you trick player base, ie your customers. I am sure if they started like p2w game, EVE would be dead long ago, I doubt it would even make 5 years. Frankly, not really. An ancient player's subscription is not worth appreciably more than a new player's. You could argue that older players have more accounts, but given that the account/player ratio is about 1.5, this falls flat on the grand scale. Frankly, then you do not know much about how business works. Regardless is it game or not. As we are all customers here. Customer`s loyalty is something companies work on for decades. And you do not get customers loyalty without being consistent. If company does not have respect for existing customers, by changing the fundamentals which are one of the reasons those customer became loyal then it will not have respect for new ones either. And no matter how much you spam/argue/challenge on this forum in order to get some personal gain, it cannot influence how that relationship works. While I agree that vets subscription is not worth even a single dime more than new players, still, people who spent thousands of bucks through years are one of the main reasons this game still exists. Because way more people got in the game by invitations, referrals, buzz created by players than CCP marketing activities. Loyal customers made it. And they should be treated with respect. This is a fairly outmoded belief. Loyalty is actually extremely unimportant in TYOOL 2015. If loyalty was important, Half-Life 3 would already be out. However, with the success of Dota 2, Team Fortress 2, and CS:GO, there's absolutely no financial reason to honor the loyalty of die-hard Valve lovers by releasing Half-Life 3.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Terra Chrall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
53
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:46:14 -
[738] - Quote
drunklies wrote:Querns wrote:drunklies wrote:Not having done so does not entitle those mewling newbies to anything either. SP injectors aren't an entitlement. They're an option. An option born of entitlement, of people wanting to bypass the hoops that everyone else jumped through. And before someone jumps in saying something about wanting to make everyone suffer, you are missing the point. It's the experience that is valuable, not the 'suffering'. Removing the need for that experience means you are devaluing the quality of the players available, simply because they do not have the experience that other players do. So you are saying they should ban the character bazaar and character should not be traded since they miss out on the experience of skilling up the character they are purchasing? As long as character trading is permitted I am all for this new idea that would let people have the option to modify their character on the small scale as well.
I don't spend money on PLEX, I pay for a subscription and earn my ISK. If I could spend some of that ISK on some SP to speed up my train into my last cruiser V then that is awesome. But as long as someone can from day one, go out and buy a character with all Cruiser Vs, or Capital, or Command ship, etc then why not?
I say CCP goes forward with this new idea or removes it and the bazaar. I don't really see any arguments that allow for the bazaar but not this new feature. |
Kilian Katar
Tenth Company
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:46:22 -
[739] - Quote
Hashtag Rare Pepe wrote:Kilian Katar wrote:Davir Sometaww wrote:Well it could be modified.
To where you can pay a certain fee in plex for a "name change" or "skill revamp".
Proposal: Skill Revamp;
-All your SP is allocated into unallocated skillpoints. -This will have a 1 year Cooldown. -Cost: 2-3 Plex or certain equivalent $$.
Why:
-Everybody makes mistakes. This lets a player start with a clean slate on what ships he/she wants to fly or do in his/her career in eve online. -One year cooldown - ensures that this doesn't get "abused".
Proposal: Name Change:
-Change your characters name -Note: will still say your old name on new tab of : Past History/Past Employment -Cost: 2 Plex? Can be adjusted as needed. -This will have a 6 month - 1 year cooldown?
Why:
-Everybody makes mistakes. This lets the player that named his character something stupid like: "Fat Kid Loves Cake" to something serious if he/she wanted too. -You are still able to see the past history of the name. -long cooldown - ensures that this doesn't get "abused". You single handily came out with more bright ideas than CCP has in a good 6 months or more Nice samef**ging. Make it more obvious next time.
Wrong guess scrub. |
Pistonbroke
Black Saints The Lost Fleet of Eve
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:46:34 -
[740] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:Pistonbroke wrote:This is a terrible idea.
Newer players who want to get ahead in the game can use the character bazaar to get a toon. Evidence of it changing hands is in the forums for all to see, so the disingenuous claptrap about bad rep does not hold water.
Losing the ability to gauge from the age of a character his potential skills will ruin various balances within the game, and will be very horrible for pirates, solo pvpers etc
Have you heard of "street sleepers"? these are super tuned cars which look to all intents and purposes like the standard vehicle that granny uses to run down to the supermarket to buy milk and cat-food. underneath however, they are turbocharged nutters. That's what you are proposing to create.
This is clearly a cash cow, and whilst we don't mind ccp having cash cows to milk, please bear in mind that we are already in the shed every month with our udders out.
Here is my alternative suggestion.
Have your SP reallocators, by all means, but make them only work for the toon the SPs are extracted from. Give them a delay (24 hrs?) so that you cant fly into the station a maxxed out BS pilot, and undock as a maxxed out carrier pilot 2 mins later. I'd happily take a 5-1 loss in the exchange rate to get rid of some of the more ******** things I've changed and to gain a small boost on some skills I would still like to gain.
Permit changes of this nature by all means, but don't create the ability for the already super rich and Highly skilled pilots to rattle up to 500m SPs within a month of the change. Likewise don't create the game breaking situation where a two month old character can be able to fly every sup-cap in the game to maximum proficiency, just because he has RL isk to burn, and wants to create a "street sleeper".
If this goes ahead, I for one will finally say enough already, and bid farewell to eve, and hello to one of the other games which are rapidly making steps ahead, such as Elite Dangerous, or Star Citizen. I'll wish you luck, and I won't look back. Basically, your arguement is purely based on PvP... So what your saying is that you wont PvP with someone unless they are MUCH younger than you because you know you 'out skillpoint them'? Coward... SKillpoints doesnt mean everything... I could beat you 1 on 1 in PvP with this character with 2m SP just because I have a counter fit.. or I out manually pilot you.. or I BLOB you... If your going to leave because I get to fly a shiny ship in a month when it took you 3 months... Go then..
clearly you misunderstand, Let me spell it out to you. - A six week old player might choose not to engage a 10 year old player, for obvious reasons.
This change creates the situation where the money rich player can create a toon with the skills of a 10 year old player, that looks like a 2 month old player.
So my argument is entirely the converse to your assumption.
And when it comes to calling people coward.... who's the one in the NPC corp?
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2050
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:47:38 -
[741] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: You're talking about buying a whole new character, I'm talking about improving an existing one. There's a difference, a big one.
There really isn't. Then why don't more people buy a new character everytime the FOTM changes. You said it yourself: Querns wrote:
Also, you're significantly overestimating the number of times any one person would rush out to the character bazaar and snatch up a custom-made character just to stay ahead of the FOTM.
Big difference between committing to a whole new character and farming some sanshas to get more SP for an existing, established character. Grinding gnolls to level up vs. Character bazaar. Not the same thing, not at all. It's actually the same thing.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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BuzzzK1lll
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:48:17 -
[742] - Quote
Pay to win? Nope. All it does is take away the smug expression of some one with high skill points flying something that a low sp toon can't. It reminds me of the Dr. Seuss story of the Sneetches. Some of them had bellies with stars and some had none upon thars.
You fly the same ships with the same modules. There is no power creep!
What it will do is allow new players to actually play the game at higher levels sooner. They will be able to do activities that generate isk to sustain them selves sooner. They can also enter aspects of the game which they would find enjoyable much sooner rather than muddle around for several months until they are trained for it.
It sounds like new player retention and content generation to me. It also does not affect me negatively in any way.
So lets say I am in a HAC and have it trained to 4 and a 1 month old toon has it trained to 5 and we get in a solo fight. Is that pay to win? I guess it depends if Eve is only a stat based game and pilot skill doesn't matter. Personally, I wouldn't care if it was a 1 month old toon or a 8 year old toon with more SP than me. All I know it that I got a fight from a 1 month old toon that wasn't in a t1 frig or a poorly fitted t1 cruiser. More content for me! I win! |
Kilian Katar
Tenth Company
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:48:40 -
[743] - Quote
Nafensoriel wrote:The general nature of this type of moniterization lead to extremely abusive scenarios among player bases.
Skill packets would be far harder to trace for RMT. By allowing this type of item you are opening an unregulated floodgate on RMT SP conversions that you will be flat out unable to track because they are never converted to isk.
The only effect this idea will cause is hyperinflation and a more depressive NPE.
Not supported.
ISK isn't the only thing tracked, CCP can track items pretty easily too, such as plex, yea they noticed some random guy leaving an ibis or cargo can out in a random safespot with 50 plex in and someone completely unrelated comes and picks it up... obvious much. |
Rumbless
Not The Droids You Are Looking For
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:49:08 -
[744] - Quote
If this happens, I quit. |
Under Presher
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:49:29 -
[745] - Quote
rofflesausage wrote:Overly complex for what should actually be possible:
- Name changes - the 'reputation' reason is total nonsense, given you can simply buy / sell a character anyway. Simply have a 'previously known as' tab in the show info for that character.
- Character SP reallocation - Made a mistake? Want a new direction? Pay to do so. Same SP amount. Limited on the number of times per year.
Trading SP across characters I'm not a fan of, certainly not with the diminishing returns aspect. I'd much rather the focus be on letting new players gain / start with more SP. As for the actual character trading - give people the ability to turn a character into an in game item. It should be tradable, be subject to the normal scam rules, and destroyable like any item in the game. Are these 'Transneural Skill Packets' normal items that can be destroyed in game? Like PLEX?
This is a much better idea. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2050
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:49:43 -
[746] - Quote
Rumbless wrote:If this happens, I quit. Holding your subscription hostage is a time-honored tradition, and I'm glad to see you are honoring your ancestors in this fashion.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2708
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:49:43 -
[747] - Quote
Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: You're talking about buying a whole new character, I'm talking about improving an existing one. There's a difference, a big one.
There really isn't. Then why don't more people buy a new character everytime the FOTM changes. You said it yourself: Querns wrote:
Also, you're significantly overestimating the number of times any one person would rush out to the character bazaar and snatch up a custom-made character just to stay ahead of the FOTM.
Big difference between committing to a whole new character and farming some sanshas to get more SP for an existing, established character. Grinding gnolls to level up vs. Character bazaar. Not the same thing, not at all. It's actually the same thing. No it isn't and repeating yourself won't make it true. |
Wribbley
Molotov Holdings Limited Molotov Coalition
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:49:58 -
[748] - Quote
Possibly got ignored or just too many posts after it. I'll try once more.
Don't get me wrong, I'm against it. However to play devils advocate.
Why not set a Hard cap at 20-25 mil sp (No injections of sp past that).
It means it can't be abused to make ++++Sp chars even higher (Yes they can still siphon SP off those accounts, thats their decision I guess)
It means new players won't be "gamebreaking" (or spending too much Isk/RL Isk). But they will get a decent boost. |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2495
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:50:18 -
[749] - Quote
Good change. I think you should convert current learning implants to "extraction implants" and kill two birds with one stone.
Remember that the skill points are not being created. They have been earned by someone. The arguments which are made for the existence of the character bazaar apply here also.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Soleil Fournier
Ultimatum. The Bastion
46
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:50:21 -
[750] - Quote
This is brilliant!!!
I've always hated being stuck with skills I trained close to 10 years ago that I never use and never plan on using. Allowing me to take them out of my toon and sell them or give them to a lower SP alt is amazing.
Keeping my toon, name, character history, etc is also something great! I hated the idea of selling one of my toons to buy another toon that I'm no way connected to (and also being stuck with the previous owners skill choices).
Ship it now!! |
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Trancefo Delcroix
Cosmic Origin
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:50:44 -
[751] - Quote
Been playing EVE for 6 years loyaly as a paying customer. Now I say, if you cross the line of
NO SP FOR RL MONEY
I will quit immediatelly and never look back! |
u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
719
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:50:54 -
[752] - Quote
Tzu Wu wrote:Bienator II wrote:before everyone goes mental here a few reasons why it is not pay2win: - SP is traded between 2 chars, no SP is generated out of nothing - SP is lost in transaction (SP sink) - it is an alternative to an already existing feature (char bazzar) - it is mostly only useful for young chars
and last but not least having SP and winning are two different things.
would i use it? probably not because i have too much SP already. It would be highly inefficient to use it on this char. do i mind that noobs could potentially have high SP chars in their first month? no is this a good change? i don't know Finally someone with some damned sense, thank you.
Many people say they are not happy with this, yet player base is shrinking every day...Sure some vets might quit, but many more will join. People are lazy, they do not want to wait 2 years to fly that shiny ship...
Yeah we, older players had go wait, but times are changing and if we want EVE to survive in the years ahead, CCP need ot change not only the surface, but all the way down to the foundations of the game.
Right now those lazy people come into the game, play for a while and quit, because "EVE is too hard and time consuming". I've heard all that "survival of the fittest", even I supported this idea, but seeing 20k online people, as opposed to 50-60 few years back is not good, and I intend to play this game 'till I retire, which will be in many years, so I support bringing in new flesh and more targets into the game. |
Ben Musana
Black Nano Ops
18
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:51:54 -
[753] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:For people quitting in protest I remind them that Operation Magic School Bus does accept donations to help out the new players. Yes, this is a 'can I haz' post but it is one where the material will be put to good use, not just lining a wallet or hanger. Contract to me if you wish to donate.
m
I think before some spent all there goodies before they leave, they trash it as a protest event! |
Mai Ling Ravencroft
Duragon Pioneer Group Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:52:34 -
[754] - Quote
Eternal Bob wrote:Interesting how the most popular reactions to this on /r/eve have been the positive ones. Luckily this forum isn't the only place devs go for feedback.
Too bad a lot of them on reddit are newer players who don't understand the failings of this. Like I pointed out before, Karmafleet, a reddit based corp is rife with pilots who bought pilots on the bazaar and are consistantly dieing in noobish ways. |
Triss Meri
Tritanium Industries and Technology Executive Outcomes
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:52:35 -
[755] - Quote
I'm going to play devils advocate on this.
What not set a cool down on SP pack usage and/extraction? Every 6 months, Every year? A max of 500,000 SP in X time period?
Say someone needs to finally finish crusier V or maybe train the other JF skills... Perhaps they can't do doctrines in their new corp for 60 days so they're pretty much useless until then?
30-90 days or so is more of a PITA then anything since they want to focus on their current skill path. They don't want to extract anything/sell any SP.
On the flip side... so many people have wasted trading or mining skills... Once again... can only extract X SP in Y time frame... so this year they get to offload a portion of those...
It slows down the process while still allowing people to customize without "buying" their character.
Remember, I'm trying to look at the flip side and be "objective". Don't flame me to death plz :)
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Braxton Tscharke
Sudden Buggery
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:52:45 -
[756] - Quote
GREAT IDEA!! .....but seriously though if the goal is to improve the new player struggle give them 4 or 5 mil Sp on start so they can get balls deep into cruiser territory. Or if the goal is to make dank coin for the company sell the ability to change names on charictors? I have three! Take my credit card! Here, have my wife..... Want 5 plex a pop? Take it! TAKE IT!!!! |
Domanique Altares
Scrap Metal Squadron Point Blank Alliance
3442
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:52:55 -
[757] - Quote
u3pog wrote: Yeah we, older players had go wait, but times are changing and if we want EVE to survive in the years ahead, CCP need ot change not only the surface, but all the way down to the foundations of the game.
Changes like this are not how you prolong the life of a game. They're how you squeeze what little cash remains from it before folding your company and retiring to a tropical island where no one eats pickled rotten shark. |
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp Chao3 Alliance
297
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:53:15 -
[758] - Quote
This is a great option added on the already existing character bazaar.
New players are more likely to make poor skill choices at the beginning, and allowing them to fix those (for a cost) while limiting the ability to re-spec for older toons is fine by me.
+1
"surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope...
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ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1267
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:53:33 -
[759] - Quote
I have removed some troll and off-topic posts.
Quote:5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Niriel Greez
Specimen 794 Project.Mayhem.
37
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:53:59 -
[760] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote: Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.
Consistency is what matters. Loyalty. You do not change fundamentals after 12 years. Because that way you trick player base, ie your customers. I am sure if they started like p2w game, EVE would be dead long ago, I doubt it would even make 5 years.
Consistency might matter, but newer players are in such a bad position nowadays that something has to change.
This might be somewhat overkill and I do believe it needs to be toned down, but I'm in favor of anything that improves the new player experience because it's the purest form of sandbox content CCP can add to the game; more players in space.
And while it would be nice to set some further restrictions on this idea, it can hardly be considered 'P2W' any more than we already have available. You can buy as much SP on the bazaar as you want and you can buy as much ISK as you want.
I think the most reasonable question is, if an older player is allowed to circumvent painful experiences in the game through the purchase or selling of PLEX, why should a newer player not be entitled to a better starting experience through SP, especially given how this 'power' shifts further towards older players with every year that passes?
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drunklies
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:54:07 -
[761] - Quote
Querns wrote:drunklies wrote:Querns wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote: Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.
Consistency is what matters. Loyalty. You do not change fundamentals after 12 years. Because that way you trick player base, ie your customers. I am sure if they started like p2w game, EVE would be dead long ago, I doubt it would even make 5 years. Frankly, not really. An ancient player's subscription is not worth appreciably more than a new player's. You could argue that older players have more accounts, but given that the account/player ratio is about 1.5, this falls flat on the grand scale. It does go deeper then that though. Older players for the back bone of eve in many ways, they provide the services, the support, industry, corp management an a bunch of stuff i dont understand. Yes, new players could do this, and might, but don't say that old players are worth only as much as new. At the very least they have the benefit of proven loyalty. Even if this is true, only a very small, very foolish portion of old players actually believe that having a big SP number matters or that having to alarm clock to start a new skill matters in TYOOL 2015. We can suffer their loss easily.
You know what, your damned right. Older players understand that Eve isnt all about the SP. It's almost like they learned something in the time it took them to grind what they have. It's almost like the experience is more important than the SP. It's almost like selling SP and pretending is experience is a ******* ******** idea.
And your right again, it doesnt really matter, but in the context of Eve, and Eve's history, it is important, and it does matter, cause it is the pinnacle of achievement in that field. The records recorded by guineas dont matter, until someone is interested. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
166
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:54:30 -
[762] - Quote
Aren Dar wrote:One of the things I've observed in dealing with newer players is the number of people who have dropped out over the years because they joined with the assumption that they could grind game time. Exacerbated when there were a lot of people in a single group who were of the same mentality - eventually lots of them burnt out. And you get plenty of people who come into the game thinking they can grind PLEX to sub their accounts. They usually burn out before their trial has ended. Some losses are inevitable, it doesn't mean you change the fundamental nature of the game so everyone can have free game time and be able to grind SP. These people will likely quit whatever you do anyway.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Nafensoriel
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
130
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:55:44 -
[763] - Quote
Kilian Katar wrote:Nafensoriel wrote:The general nature of this type of moniterization lead to extremely abusive scenarios among player bases.
Skill packets would be far harder to trace for RMT. By allowing this type of item you are opening an unregulated floodgate on RMT SP conversions that you will be flat out unable to track because they are never converted to isk.
The only effect this idea will cause is hyperinflation and a more depressive NPE.
Not supported. ISK isn't the only thing tracked, CCP can track items pretty easily too, such as plex, yea they noticed some random guy leaving an ibis or cargo can out in a random safespot with 50 plex in and someone completely unrelated comes and picks it up... obvious much.
You misunderstand the gravity of the issue. Items like this allow for completely out of game legitimate RMT. There is only ever 1 item transferred and it doesn't require an explicit or old account to do. I can make a thousand throwaway accounts.. charge people real life dollars for the SP I extract from them and make a single trade without CCP frankly being able to do a damn thing because of lack of proof.
I can even roll the cost of the plex into the model so the character being extracted is 100% legitimate use.. the SP trade item just allows for out of game cash to be exchanged without explicit knowledge or logging.
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Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation MinTek Conglomerate
79
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:59:49 -
[764] - Quote
People, come shoot jita 4-4 thing if you object. We lack ships here. |
Beta Maoye
81
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:01:08 -
[765] - Quote
I am not against providing new players an alternative way to speed up their character development so that they can 'engage with' Eve earlier. It will help to expand the player base at a faster rate which is what Eve needs now. However, you need to put a cap on the total SP that a character can gain from this fast track. I am against the fact that a player can buy all the way to the top even though it is diminishing return. There must be a limit to the extent that money can buy.
Secondly, conversion rate must be less than 1:1. It has to be a net loss of SP in the process of transfer to discourage exploit. The number SP that can be gained should be always less than the number of SP that lost in the game.
Thirdly, character that obtain SP by this way should have some indication in his history page. Other players can take this into consideration when assessing the experience of this character.
Finally, make it a private transaction between two players. Do not make SP tradable in public market because it hurts the feeling of ver players.
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:01:12 -
[766] - Quote
Querns wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote: Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.
Consistency is what matters. Loyalty. You do not change fundamentals after 12 years. Because that way you trick player base, ie your customers. I am sure if they started like p2w game, EVE would be dead long ago, I doubt it would even make 5 years. Frankly, not really. An ancient player's subscription is not worth appreciably more than a new player's. You could argue that older players have more accounts, but given that the account/player ratio is about 1.5, this falls flat on the grand scale. Frankly, then you do not know much about how business works. Regardless is it game or not. As we are all customers here. Customer`s loyalty is something companies work on for decades. And you do not get customers loyalty without being consistent. If company does not have respect for existing customers, by changing the fundamentals which are one of the reasons those customer became loyal then it will not have respect for new ones either. And no matter how much you spam/argue/challenge on this forum in order to get some personal gain, it cannot influence how that relationship works. While I agree that vets subscription is not worth even a single dime more than new players, still, people who spent thousands of bucks through years are one of the main reasons this game still exists. Because way more people got in the game by invitations, referrals, buzz created by players than CCP marketing activities. Loyal customers made it. And they should be treated with respect. This is a fairly outmoded belief. Loyalty is actually extremely unimportant in TYOOL 2015. If loyalty was important, Half-Life 3 would already be out. However, with the success of Dota 2, Team Fortress 2, and CS:GO, there's absolutely no financial reason to honor the loyalty of die-hard Valve lovers by releasing Half-Life 3.
Loyalty is exactly what will get old HL players to get new HL as well, no matter when it comes out. Their loyalty comes from previous experiences and they have understanding why it takes so long. As everyone`s expectations about it are quite high and it is not easy to make great games to live up to those expectations. It takes time and they will wait.
All companies are trying the best ways to make loyal customers, to make them repeat buys etc. Loyalty and customers happiness ie customer`s feelings. One unhappy customer will make bigger impact than 5-10 happy customers, only it will be negative.Sorry but I do not want to spend time on explaining that, nor it is the main subject. You can google it, listen some of the world best speakers on that subject, read books if you want to find more about it. I just hope CCP has some people with knowledge, who can measure threats and side effects of such moves.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Terra Chrall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
53
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:02:16 -
[767] - Quote
Grimmash wrote:I do not like this idea. If Eve is to be persistent and about choices, this doesn't really fit. This change will make character age meaningless. Not in the "I've played longer than you, grrr!" sense, but in a very real recruiting and security sense, this diminishes tools for validating players by reputation, by age and, by proxy, experience.
It also allows for spies, corp thieves, etc, to break out of the persistence cycle of needing to go dormant, or train an alt, or start fresh, or keep a stable of clean accounts handy and training to meet the infiltration needs. You could clear a corp out, pump the skills into a new alt with the isk you got, and move on. We'll have no way to know if that new bro with high skills is just someone who paid to get ahead, or someone who is utilizing the system to accelerate the process of conniving into the corp the repeat the cycle. For many corps, I imagine any character with an unbalanced time v sp profile will immediately be rejected. In game where trust and reputations are a big part of things, this is not a step that will help new players find the groups they need to join to really enjoy Eve. This system will just make all characters, and especially young characters, even more suspect. But everything you say here can be done by buying a pre-skilled character off the already existing bazaar.
Quote:There are a lot of cool things you could do and charge a fee for. You could let players pay money to reset skills already earned. You could let players pay to alter aspects of a character. You could drag the out of game bazaar into an in-game market.
If the time it takes to train skills is a real barrier to new players, then perhaps charging to get more skills is not the answer, but reevaluating how skills work and how they accrue over time needs an entire overhaul. I like some of the alternative ideas thrown around, like reallocated existing SP. Could let a missile player switch to guns overnight. A miner to fighter pilot, industrialist to an incursion runner, etc.
Another idea would be have attribute accelerators like the ones that currently only work for the first few weeks of a character. Well they could create new accelerators that work for a set duration and give a nice attribute boost to help skill up faster.
But I have to agree with CCP that this new idea is in line with the existing bazaar. What it does though it makes it much more open to smaller changes vs buying a high SP character. A player can make more moderate SP jumps. What do you think is better: 1) Person converts PLEX to ISK and buys a 50M SP character off the bazaar. 2) Person converts PLEX to ISK and buys 10M SP and skills up a core skills and frigates. Then buys another 10M SP a couple weeks later and skills up cruisers. And then a month later buys another 20M and skills up all battleships.
Personally I like option 2.
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roberts dragon
The Scope Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:04:30 -
[768] - Quote
repec like the mining skill into package and sell as mining only . so any skill you don't want it has to be all in that field like industry/mining etc that way you wont **** off the vets, and have to many super pilots .
also you should be able to change your name appearance maybe even change faction . use aurum for all of this and make aurum non tradeable as you pointed out on ebay look it up like plex is 15 pounds with ccp on ebay its like 7 pounds .
if you really need a cash cow let players paint their own ships how they want or even make their own design ships or even quarter let them furnish them , plenty of scope for extra cash cows .
but overall this you should put time and effort of getting new players into eve since that's the way forward .
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Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1309
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:05:03 -
[769] - Quote
OK, here's my thoughts as a player of some 12 years and this maybe my longest forum post in that time:
I'm going to look into the "vehicle" CCP wants to use for this SP Extraction\Injection first:
First you devalued my character by introducing Multi Character Training (MCT). When it was single character training you knew someone had spent their 30 days of game time training that character and couldn't train another on that account. That added value to the Character. To do MCT you attached it to PLEX which put PLEX prices up.
Next you introduced the NEX store with cosmetic items for the price of Aurum. Funny thing that PLEX converts to Aurum and so PLEX prices went up.
After that you introduced SKINs which lets players customise their ships. All good, except again you attached that to Aurum. Again PLEX can be converted into Aurum and so PLEX prices are currently at 1.2bil (Source: EVE Central)
Now we've covered that, let's see why PLEX was introduced: To allow people who are time rich but cash poor to be able to play the game and pay for game time from their in-game wallets. Currently a low skilled Character (<5mil SP) won't be able to afford 1.2bil to buy a PLEX to do any of this malarkey with SP extraction\injection.
You're pricing them out of the market FFS. More of a concern is that PLEX isn't being used for what it was brought in-game for and is just another money stream that's turning into a torrent for CCP.
Just change it's name to something more meaningful rather than the "30 Day Pilot's License Extension" and separate Aurum form PLEX. Class it as "Monetary Tiercide" if you want but PLEX should be for Game Time and all the other bumpf you're pushing onto PLEX (and the prices) should be Aurum
Suggestion: If you're short on cash just increase the price of subscription a little.
So now I've got that off my chest let's look at the Dev Blog itself:
The fact that in the OP tells you that you tried to get something past us and new the reaction it would bring: CCP Logibro wrote:Please also read this reminder on our forum rules ~ ISD Decoy
Don't hide stuff under innocent titles! We're not stupid and the dedicated core of players will read these things and drag it into the light.
What's happening with the Character Bazaar? Nothing by the looks of things. I think this Dev Blog falls into the 'Bait and Switch' category to be honest.
That done, let's look at how this would impact me as I'm sure the price isn't going to be cheap to buy those delicious unallocated skillpoints. To reach that conclusion I'm taking into account this line can be purchased in the New Eden Store for Aurum which effectivily means PLEX so 1.2bil plus SP value maybe 1.5bil:
Maximus Aerelius: SP 120,825,068 = > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added - No Interest Other Char same account SP 50,623,552 = 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added - No Interest Main on other account: SP 71,724,124 = 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added - No interest
Being loyal doesn't pay off when it comes to introducing new things it seems. The longer you stay the more you don't get to say thanks. The "10 Year Veterans Station" is still a sore point. I'd also draw attention to the change to allocating an additional 350,000 SP to new characters. Did all those subscribers get 350,000 SP as unallocated skillpoints to say "thanks for staying with us"? Nope. And now this slap in the face as an idea to effectively exclude veterans because, we'll, we just aren't allowed nice things. With that in mind how do you expect old players to introduce new ones when you keep excluding them for little things like the above?
I've posted this before but it rings so true with this suggestion from CCP:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:It's not about the amount of SP you have, it's what you have it in, what you do with it, who you fly with, who you fly for, what you do, who you do it to, who you do that with or for and with and the reaction to your actions
EVE was never about how many SP you had and it was always touted as a long-game endeavor and a thinking mans game... EVE had never bowed to the instant gratification that was catered to in other games (not mentioning any in particular). Until today with this Dev Blog.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
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Aren Dar
EVE University Ivy League
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:05:48 -
[770] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Aren Dar wrote:One of the things I've observed in dealing with newer players is the number of people who have dropped out over the years because they joined with the assumption that they could grind game time. Exacerbated when there were a lot of people in a single group who were of the same mentality - eventually lots of them burnt out. And you get plenty of people who come into the game thinking they can grind PLEX to sub their accounts.
Which is what I just said. |
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Captain Grantkarppe
No Laws Apply
38
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:05:59 -
[771] - Quote
I joined Eve because I wanted something more than the instant gratification/fast burnout that most online games espouse. By allowing six-month old accounts the opportunity to boost their way to perfect supercaps grossly devalues the time necessary to get to the 50 million SP mark on your own.
It reminds me of WoW's instant level 90 boost that they added back in Mists of Pandaria. Leveling and progression just doesn't matter to Blizzard anymore. They hand out purples like candy and grant level 90 instantly at the swipe of a credit card. It's disgusting and it shames me to admit that CCP appears to be following a similar route, probably out of economic desperation; not greed, as I have never known them to be a company that abuses its community for extra revenue in times past.
I warn you, CCP -- doing this will most likely cause a mass exodus of subscribers from your already-dwindling playerbase. As soon as the younger accounts buy their way to perfect skills, they will have little left to look forward to, and the comfort in exclusivity and value of a long-trained skill will have diminished with the trivialization of acquiring said expensive skill. |
Laurestine
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:06:19 -
[772] - Quote
**** this, another nail in the coffin. I'm done with EVE if this horseshit crap gets implemented. |
Natya Mebelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
314
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:06:39 -
[773] - Quote
Thank god you added diminishing returns. Now I am much less against it. It still doesn't sit well with me, but I'm not outright opposed against it any more. But first, questions:
How will we acquire these packages? ingame ISK sink? Plex? Aurum? A combination?
"Creating a Transneural Skill Packet requires approximately 500,000 skillpoints" How will we choose them? Are we going to unallocate skillpoints into a "pool" and only when it hits 500.000 skillpoints (or whatever) the TNSP will be created? Are we only allowed to remove whole trained levels or can we deduct any number of skillpoints we like?
And if we are already at that, why are you not introducing the technology to remap existing skillpoints on the same character? Say you started with gunnery but you came to like missiles a lot more? Swappety-swap-swap! All thanks to that handy retraining item. You want to explore other parts of the game but have a bunch of capital skills you actually don't use any more? Move them around! If capitals come back to glory, you still can move them back. Only difference: no diminshing returns for skillpoints moved within the same character. Or much much less diminishing returns.
Now, onto the rest:
Quote:That part really hits home for me because when I made that jump from 15mil SP to 33mil SP I went from being called GÇÿTurbo DinosaurGÇÖ to being called GÇÿKil2GÇÖ. Puke. I also found out, after the fact, that Kil2 had been involved in some kind of corp theft which meant I had to deal with negative reputation issues for years afterwards. If the "poop I have a bad name now" with strings attached was an issue, then it shouldn't be solved with a skillpoint transfer bazaar. The issue could have EASILY been addressed by adding a plex-based service called "ID replacement" or have that be automatically executed upon character transfer. As you enter your new name, you get a new character ID. Everything you have on the active account is transferred to the new character ID and the old ID gets emptied, only a name remains. That old character name now shows up as biomassed character. I'm sure you all know the corporation for "dead characters". So no issues with reputation or some unknown one writing at you. A clean cut for a new reputation. But you never delivered that :c For reasons I never understood. It would even be a service used without character transfer required.
Also, what you fail to realize as proved with 400.000 skillpoints for new pilots: New players don't need so much new skillpoints. They need less steep requirements for skills. Remember the old Thermodynamics? Three level 5 skills. Now it is fairly easy compared to before.
Next would be a service for longer accelerated skill training. Now I know that is a double-edged sword because for one, it "generates" skillpoints out of "nothing" whereas that would still be the money that gets pumped into CCP. That is not necessarily a bad thing. I understand the reason of "older players to give up skillpoints for newer players" in order to try to level the playing field between old and new players. But what exactly does it achieve? There will be only so much skillpoints traded as are wanted to be shed. And SP is much more finite than plexing.
Quote:We could allow them to be broken up and sold in chunks Then why don't you do that? You want Skillpoints in gunnery? Then buy the package that has been extracted from Gunnery SP. That would be a welcome and literal way of "trading experience" or "inserting experience." instead of a "well let's just unallocate the SP I don't like" which feels flimsy.
Quote:By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Without actual intra-character skillpoint reallocation without penalties, it is not really that much more control. It is simply a way to make more ISK from new players instead of actually destroying ISK, or to shove skillpoints to your alts. We still have useless attributes and not a fixed rate of skillpoint gain no matter which skill you train for example. Remaps are not a solution.
Quote:Feedback on how exactly to set up the diminishing returns, or even alternate ideas to reach the same goals would be very helpful here. Why using hard values when your game is so much based on percent? Just have a curve going down that starts after a set amount of skillpoints, like the 5 Million you mentioned. That is a lot better than set values since it is a lot less arbitrary.
Other comments only halfway related to the topic based on what has been said in the devblog:
Quote:- Recently, weGÇÖve seen new threads emerging where EVE players discuss options to help new players with progression.
- Why not instead move the experience into the client?
- Honestly? No wonder after you've destroyed a great tutorial and replaced it with really poopy opportunities and have not done anything to fix it for MONTHS :c Other than straying more skillpoints that STILL don't cut down to the real issues. I'm amazed how that was even manageable.
- You mean, as EVERYTHING should be like in the game? I'm really getting tired of everything needing to be youtubed or wiki'd by new players and how knowledge is simply hidden until you come to an essay that explains it to you.
Do you remember how the tutorials worked once? Do you remember how there once was an explanation for turret tracking and missile mechanics? Please, get all that. into. the. game. already. I know, I'm sorry, totally wrong thread. But it is just sad to see how CCP wastes away the game by not filling it with information and relies on a playerbase that slaves away for them to fix all the holes :c
Bottom line: before you haven't fixed the riddled wreck called "NPE" and made it whole again, you should not even remotely think about shipping this feature. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:07:36 -
[774] - Quote
Niriel Greez wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote: Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.
Consistency is what matters. Loyalty. You do not change fundamentals after 12 years. Because that way you trick player base, ie your customers. I am sure if they started like p2w game, EVE would be dead long ago, I doubt it would even make 5 years. Consistency might matter, but newer players are in such a bad position nowadays that something has to change. This might be somewhat overkill and I do believe it needs to be toned down, but I'm in favor of anything that improves the new player experience because it's the purest form of sandbox content CCP can add to the game; more players in space. And while it would be nice to set some further restrictions on this idea, it can hardly be considered 'P2W' any more than we already have available. You can buy as much SP on the bazaar as you want and you can buy as much ISK as you want. I think the most reasonable question is, if an older player is allowed to circumvent painful experiences in the game through the purchase or selling of PLEX, why should a newer player not be entitled to a better starting experience through SP, especially given how this 'power' shifts further towards older players with every year that passes?
Sorry to say but you have no clue what you are talking about. New players nowadays are in at least 10 times better position than when game started.
Though I do not have anything against helping new players if that is what it takes to keep them in the game. But someone with 50mil sp is not new player. So if they want to make something to help some target group, solution should be focused on that target group only.
While I do not think what is needed, as the point of EVE was never to be easy, for the sake of the game and player base I would not have anything against help for new ones. But this proposal is far from a solution, it will kill the game for everyone.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
152
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:09:13 -
[775] - Quote
I think this is a terrible idea for Eve, but I love it for personal reasons.
It's a terrible idea because it destroys the characters having history angle - it's part of what makes Eve, Eve.
It's also a terrible idea because the same idiots who are telling newbies to min-max skill train will tell them how they have to Transneural Skill Packet themselves to 5M, maybe 10M, and make Eve more of a chore than it already is.
I love it for personal reasons because I have more than one character which is way over 100M SP, and I'd love to max out their train and sell that for ISK, instead of training just useless stuff. |
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen Grumpy Space Bastards
244
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:13:21 -
[776] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:u3pog wrote: Yeah we, older players had go wait, but times are changing and if we want EVE to survive in the years ahead, CCP need ot change not only the surface, but all the way down to the foundations of the game.
Changes like this are not how you prolong the life of a game. They're how you squeeze what little cash remains from it before folding your company and retiring to a tropical island where no one eats pickled rotten shark.
Are you sure?
Barrier to entry is one of EVE's huge issues. New players see wonderful things in space their first week, then do the math and realize they can't even try advanced ships for months, nor fly them effectively for years. At that point, anyone with a brain would just de-commit on the whole effort and go play world of warships or whatever, which is essentially balanced fun between teams starting in the opening minutes.
They've probably done the math, and figured out there is a subset of their population that would be happy if they could just chip in another $50 in the beginning to buy themselves up to 10M SP or whatever, thus letting them fly interceptors properly, or battleships without being complete liabilities. Those people would then stick around and keep paying for subscriptions.
If you have some better ideas about how to improve EVE and increase the playerbase, I'm sure CCP is listening. You don't get to crap on other people's ideas if you don't have better answers. |
Argyle Wynter
Rura-Penthe
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:13:43 -
[777] - Quote
Implemented correctly, this could lead to higher skill point characters being more valuable and retaining more of their worth.
Some quick envelope math suggests anything more than 2 of these siphons being able to be created per PLEX equivalent drags everything in the other direction--it devalues subscriptions and skill points obtained over time. So it really should only be one or two of the siphons and then the added costs of the skills from a character. I suggest only 1 per PLEX to be safe.
Also how are skill training multipliers handled?
Can we get an idea of what implementation ratios you are looking at?
Also CCP may want to describe what it would cost (notionally) to make a 80 M skill point character using these point buys as compared to someone paying full freight over time on a subscription.
I think if we see anything over two of these skill point siphons per PLEX equivalent, then we are definitely seeing a pay to win model.
If it is two, or better yet, one... then I think it actually may be in the players favor to encourage this and cull alts and skill points from the overall herd.
|
Bai
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:14:13 -
[778] - Quote
I'm kinda okay with this.
You might want to add a "cooling off period", where you can re-inject the skillpoints you just extracted without any penalty. Just in case someone changes their mind. |
Ong
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
117
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:15:16 -
[779] - Quote
FML you guys really didn't learn from the monocle fiasco did you?
Just straight up no.
The most I would even consider is some way to rename and possibly re-map skill points, but buying skill points?!?!
It would make eve one step away from being free to play and full micro transactions, and we all know that's the final nail in any mmo's coffin.
******* fire whoever came up with this idea......seriously. |
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
369
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:17:45 -
[780] - Quote
To all the people thinking that this is not different from the Character Bazaar - think about what you can do with 50, or even just 20M SP, if you are specializing.
- Make X accounts through the Power of Two program, where X is however many you can/want to afford. - Create characters and put in +5s into each of them - Train them for half a year - Harvest (extract) and combine them all into one - Keep the harvesting accounts for further SP production.
Do that for each Character slot on your account to have a Super Alt, a PvP alt and a Perfect Production alt.Because you can make them pitch-perfect, they all will fit easily into the 50M, so turnaround rates will be 80% at worst, SP wise. On top of that, all three of them are perfectly clean with no history whatsoever.
That way, you can create perfect characters at multiple times the speed the character bazaar can, because the character bazaar can still only create characters at 2000SP/h or whatever the theoretical maximum is.
Yes, it's expensive if it's to be effective, but that's the whole point of a P2W game, right? |
|
Cherri Minoa
IronPig Sev3rance
112
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:18:08 -
[781] - Quote
Thanks ... but no thanks.
"If I had been censured every time I have run my ship, or fleets under my command, into great danger, I should have long ago been out of the Service" - Horatio Nelson
|
Budrick3
POS Party
117
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:19:24 -
[782] - Quote
I think this is a very poor idea because it allows people to "catch up" to the 50 mil sp area quite fast, and is a slap in the face to dedicated Eve players who have specifically trained for what they wanted over a period of time. It is also easily abused and will trash the plex market even more.
I know your going bankrupt CCP but man up and take responsibility for poor decisions regarding previous titles you never released, and the stupidity of making DUST 514 Play station exclusive.
For a change, if you need more money, expedite Legion and Valkarie.
Dont screw up the only successful title you have by pissing off your remaining players. |
Moon Moon Burdy
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:19:30 -
[783] - Quote
Don't really have a dog in this race, but I'd much prefer some seksi skins for my Ishkur. Black and red pls. kthxbye.
Things that went boom
Storytime with Moon Moon New stories (almost) daily!
Promising Young Murderer, Education Appreciated.
|
Stevo patriot
Stride with Ease Silent Requiem
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:19:41 -
[784] - Quote
Worst idea I've heard since I started playing...
I'm strongly against this guys. |
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
437
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:19:49 -
[785] - Quote
Bai wrote:I'm kinda okay with this.
You might want to add a "cooling off period", where you can re-inject the skillpoints you just extracted without any penalty. Just in case someone changes their mind. This idea is already diminishing a lot of the permanence of decisions. Having any period at all where you can reinject them with no penalty would simply be reinforcing that lack of permanence. You made the decision, now you have to live with it.
Planning a trip to Thera? Check out http://eve-scout.com/ for a list of the current connections.
Once you've made your choice, join the EvE-Scout channel and request a scout to make sure your connection is clear!
|
Niriel Greez
Specimen 794 Project.Mayhem.
38
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:20:19 -
[786] - Quote
drunklies wrote:Niriel Greez wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote: Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.
Consistency is what matters. Loyalty. You do not change fundamentals after 12 years. Because that way you trick player base, ie your customers. I am sure if they started like p2w game, EVE would be dead long ago, I doubt it would even make 5 years. Consistency might matter, but newer players are in such a bad position nowadays that something has to change. This might be somewhat overkill and I do believe it needs to be toned down, but I'm in favor of anything that improves the new player experience because it's the purest form of sandbox content CCP can add to the game; more players in space. And while it would be nice to set some further restrictions on this idea, it can hardly be considered 'P2W' any more than we already have available. You can buy as much SP on the bazaar as you want and you can buy as much ISK as you want. I think the most reasonable question is, if an older player is allowed to circumvent painful experiences in the game through the purchase or selling of PLEX, why should a newer player not be entitled to a better starting experience through SP, especially given how this 'power' shifts further towards older players with every year that passes? People always seem to be saying this. People were saying this in 2006, when others had 2 years on them. Guess what, it didn't really matter then, and it doesn't really matter now.
Two years is nothing.
The average vet, me included, now has close to infinite resources and alts. We have reached a point in EVE where we can literally throw triage carriers and dreads away.
In 2006, the game still wasn't very well understood. Now, most players have grasped that cap escalations, for example, at 500-1b/hour are better income than HS mining. Which is also why most of C5/6 space has become a PVE environment with little conflict, it is also why huge nullsec alliances have created the safest ratting space possible and farmed the **** out of it for years. Or how incursion groups have optimized every last aspect of their gameplay. All of this is evidenced by inflation rates; people have simply gotten much better at accumulating wealth/power.
Ever wondered why years ago you'd see nothing but ratting Drakes, and over the years those same players are now ratting with multiboxed carriers?
What this means is that both the learning curve and the 'falling-behind' curve for new players is ever-increasing and has gotten to a stage where it's utterly stupid.
An older player should have an advantage over someone new in an MMO, but if you let this scale too far, you will end up with a game where the advantage you have over a new player is no longer relevant because there are no longer any new players around to use this advantage against; which I am sure we can both agree is not healthy for the game.
|
Grimmash
New Jovian Exploration Department A Band Apart.
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:21:37 -
[787] - Quote
Terra Chrall wrote:Grimmash wrote:I do not like this idea. If Eve is to be persistent and about choices, this doesn't really fit. This change will make character age meaningless. Not in the "I've played longer than you, grrr!" sense, but in a very real recruiting and security sense, this diminishes tools for validating players by reputation, by age and, by proxy, experience.
It also allows for spies, corp thieves, etc, to break out of the persistence cycle of needing to go dormant, or train an alt, or start fresh, or keep a stable of clean accounts handy and training to meet the infiltration needs. You could clear a corp out, pump the skills into a new alt with the isk you got, and move on. We'll have no way to know if that new bro with high skills is just someone who paid to get ahead, or someone who is utilizing the system to accelerate the process of conniving into the corp the repeat the cycle. For many corps, I imagine any character with an unbalanced time v sp profile will immediately be rejected. In game where trust and reputations are a big part of things, this is not a step that will help new players find the groups they need to join to really enjoy Eve. This system will just make all characters, and especially young characters, even more suspect. But everything you say here can be done by buying a pre-skilled character off the already existing bazaar.
The main issue is that someone had to train the character, and it has an associated history, or lack thereof. If you want a clean character, you have to buy a clean one that has been running, or plan for your own stable of clean characters/accounts. Allowing SP to just get moved around sidesteps the whole persistent character history and associated time and cost to get the clean characters. Right now, getting clean characters has a definite cost to the person doing it, either time, money, or isk on the Bazaar. Moving skillpoints around for money removes the whole aspect of burning characters with suitable profiles for those engaging in nefarious deeds.
I'm not against corp thieves, or any of that gameplay. I really think that this change will not impact those players much at all, as smart players or good thieves will find dumb marks or figure out how to get isk to offset the time component of training characters by buying them. Buying a character is fine, but requires the thief to convincingly sell the history or convince a group that they are trustworthy despite the character sale. I do think this change will impact legitimate newbros who have $50 bucks to burn, and think that getting themselves some SP will level the playing field, but will instead find that many good player groups will look at the SP to time differential and assume the worst.
SP is a rather dumb concept in the current market for games, but it's how Eve has run. Dodging fixing SP issues by devaluing it does not resolve the frustrations of the SP system.
|
Black Panthera
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:22:07 -
[788] - Quote
Maybe CCP could tweak this idea and make it limited to own account/toon(s)? I would like to be able to pay (if not possible to get it for free) to transfer some of 'misplaced' SP into more needed/usefull skills.. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2051
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:23:02 -
[789] - Quote
Sean Parisi wrote:I want to re-iterate. That if you do support this idea, you should NOT support diminishing of SP for toons with higher skills. If SP is to be directed traded the tax should be the Aurum / PLEX needed to move it. Not the SP itself - SP requires a player sub / money to produce - as such it should never be diminished based on the *BS* of prestige.
If CCP follows that logic I would support this idea. That's not possible. The only interaction with Aurum in this entire process is to purchase the extractor item. The item then has to be used on a player to extract skillpoints, which consumes the extractor and spawns a new item. At this point, the link between the extractor and the Aurum spent is severed, and the extracted SP item can ONLY be sold on the player market.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Soleil Fournier
Ultimatum. The Bastion
46
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:24:18 -
[790] - Quote
Question: will this delete skill books from your head or will it just take the skill points and leave the books intact? (I'd like the option to delete books that have 0 points allocated, please).
Also, this would make transferring sp within your own toon super costly if you have a high skill point character. Can there be a discount applied for keeping skill points within your toon? I'd be ok with a 50% loss for moving skill points plugged into my head into my unallocated skill point pool. Seems more Fair since I'm not transferring them to someone else. |
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2051
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:24:30 -
[791] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:
Loyalty is exactly what will get old HL players to get new HL as well, no matter when it comes out. Their loyalty comes from previous experiences and they have understanding why it takes so long. As everyone`s expectations about it are quite high and it is not easy to make great games to live up to those expectations. It takes time and they will wait.
All companies are trying the best ways to make loyal customers, to make them repeat buys etc. Loyalty and customers happiness ie customer`s feelings. One unhappy customer will make bigger impact than 5-10 happy customers, only it will be negative.Sorry but I do not want to spend time on explaining that, nor it is the main subject. You can google it, listen some of the world best speakers on that subject, read books if you want to find more about it. I just hope CCP has some people with knowledge, who can measure threats and side effects of such moves.
Half-Life 3 is not coming out. Sorry to burst the bubble.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Romeo Blacks
Stride with Ease Silent Requiem
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:25:14 -
[792] - Quote
i was drawn to the game for the hard learning curve and the ever lasting good/bad descisions.....
perma death ships and set in stone skills are the bedrock of my gameplay. and its that risk and descision that sets eve apart for me......
this is a big step in the wrong direction for me....... GREATLY dissagree with it being implemented..... |
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
657
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:27:13 -
[793] - Quote
Querns wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote: And now characters themselves are malleable, losing some of their associated uniqueness. Like the one thing EvE still does faithfully is characters and personalities actually having weight, meaning, and gravitas. A great deal of this would be lost if characters were made to factory specifications.
Veteran players make New Eden go around. They are the teachers, the instigators, the patrons, the leaders, the storytellers, and the FCs that make the game....a game. Veterans that feel what they have is being eroded are not the most likely candidates to get people hyped about playing.
You live in a very strange world. The Eve I experience is rife with purchased characters and one's sense of identity is only tied to one's jabber account or forums account.
Eh, I don' think our worlds are all that different, it's just what the central reference point is. For someone whose identity and its associations lie mostly outside of the game, individual characters are just tools of that identity, and don't have much personality in and of themselves. Some people met everyone they know in EvE in game, rather than importing existing identities and relationships from another place, and it is these people that will more likely see their character name, face, killboard, corp history, etc, as more personal than an external forums name, personality, or likeness.
This character is my Identity as far as EvE goes. I fully respect an outside identity being your main identity, but lots of character's have a lot to lose, even if this is intangible to some.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2053
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:27:21 -
[794] - Quote
Ong wrote:FML you guys really didn't learn from the monocle fiasco did you?
Just straight up no.
The most I would even consider is some way to rename and possibly re-map skill points, but buying skill points?!?!
It would make eve one step away from being free to play and full micro transactions, and we all know that's the final nail in any mmo's coffin.
******* fire whoever came up with this idea......seriously. How are so many people misunderstanding the mechanic here? You don't buy SP directly with Aurum. You can only get it from the player market.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
drunklies
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:27:23 -
[795] - Quote
Niriel Greez wrote:drunklies wrote:Niriel Greez wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote: Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.
Consistency is what matters. Loyalty. You do not change fundamentals after 12 years. Because that way you trick player base, ie your customers. I am sure if they started like p2w game, EVE would be dead long ago, I doubt it would even make 5 years. Consistency might matter, but newer players are in such a bad position nowadays that something has to change. This might be somewhat overkill and I do believe it needs to be toned down, but I'm in favor of anything that improves the new player experience because it's the purest form of sandbox content CCP can add to the game; more players in space. And while it would be nice to set some further restrictions on this idea, it can hardly be considered 'P2W' any more than we already have available. You can buy as much SP on the bazaar as you want and you can buy as much ISK as you want. I think the most reasonable question is, if an older player is allowed to circumvent painful experiences in the game through the purchase or selling of PLEX, why should a newer player not be entitled to a better starting experience through SP, especially given how this 'power' shifts further towards older players with every year that passes? People always seem to be saying this. People were saying this in 2006, when others had 2 years on them. Guess what, it didn't really matter then, and it doesn't really matter now. Two years is nothing. The average vet, me included, now has close to infinite resources and alts. We have reached a point in EVE where we can literally throw triage carriers and dreads away. In 2006, the game still wasn't very well understood. Now, most players have grasped that cap escalations, for example, at 500-1b/hour are better income than HS mining. Which is also why most of C5/6 space has become a PVE environment with little conflict, it is also why huge nullsec alliances have created the safest ratting space possible and farmed the **** out of it for years. Or how incursion groups have optimized every last aspect of their gameplay. All of this is evidenced by inflation rates; people have simply gotten much better at accumulating wealth/power. Ever wondered why years ago you'd see nothing but ratting Drakes, and over the years those same players are now ratting with multiboxed carriers? What this means is that both the learning curve and the 'falling-behind' curve for new players is ever-increasing and has gotten to a stage where it's utterly stupid. An older player should have an advantage over someone new in an MMO, but if you let this scale too far, you will end up with a game where the advantage you have over a new player is no longer relevant because there are no longer any new players around to use this advantage against; which I am sure we can both agree is not healthy for the game.
My point is, people have always used the argument that other people have the advantage of already being entrenched for as long as I've been playing. So, yeah, you have your legions of alts, your ratting carriers and piles of isk. You are still limited by the game in that you cant train anything to 6 nor get access to ships that those new players would never have access to. Everybody started at the same level, and it is simply defeatist to say that that is the major stumbling block to gaining/retaining new players. |
Neutral Haulermeister
The Corporate Raiders
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:27:33 -
[796] - Quote
Thoughts on making the SP that is delivered not be given instantly but over a perios of time determined by player SP? so a newbie might get the gains in a matter of days but a 20 or 30M SP fellow might take a week or so to apply?
Accepts your stuff if you're quitting EVE, Please mail and contract me your stuff.
|
Terra Chrall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
53
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:29:39 -
[797] - Quote
Black Panthera wrote:Maybe CCP could tweak this idea and make it limited to own account/toon(s)? I would like to be able to pay (if not possible to get it for free) to transfer some of 'misplaced' SP into more needed/usefull skills.. Only issue with this is that as long as the character bazaar exists you could buy a high SP character then tweak the skills to your liking anyway. |
Furyvixen Bloodhoof
Fredegar Hohenstaufen Corporation.
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:30:03 -
[798] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Now we've covered that, let's see why PLEX was introduced: To allow people who are time rich but cash poor to be able to play the game and pay for game time from their in-game wallets. Currently a low skilled Character (<5mil SP) won't be able to afford 1.2bil to buy a PLEX to do any of this malarkey with SP extraction\injection.
You're pricing them out of the market FFS. More of a concern is that PLEX isn't being used for what it was brought in-game for and is just another money stream that's turning into a torrent for CCP.
Actually coming As a player that has money and not time I see Plex as a means to purchase Isk so I can buy shiny big ships. Not a means to play the game for free which will definitely have affected revenue with so many people not actually subscribing.
But needless to say I'm on the fence on this plan, I personally loathe free to play models with pay to win items, and this is exactly that(+subscription).... But did you see what I wrote earlier ? I buy Plex with hard cash to buy ships...I'm already paying to win.
what does concern me is a lot of inactive accounts and players that left will resub for a month just to melt skills .
It needs a fair bit of refining to be viable and I for one am going to ge watching it like a hawk ,
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1869
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:33:00 -
[799] - Quote
Been doing some napkin math and you might have an issue but it is hard to say yet. We really need to know what #s you are thinking for aurum part first.
At the very least you probably can't run p02 anymore but again, need #s.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.
Creator of Burn Jita
Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
|
Lincoln Loth'brok
The Pontius Pilots
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:33:14 -
[800] - Quote
So just to make sure that I'm understanding this correctly, We will have the ability to do this rather than sell the character on the bazaar. So you could realistically by the Transneural Skill Packet for whatever ship you want to fly, inject them and then be able to fly that ship with the skills that were cannibalized from the previews pilot. |
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:33:23 -
[801] - Quote
Querns wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:
Loyalty is exactly what will get old HL players to get new HL as well, no matter when it comes out. Their loyalty comes from previous experiences and they have understanding why it takes so long. As everyone`s expectations about it are quite high and it is not easy to make great games to live up to those expectations. It takes time and they will wait.
All companies are trying the best ways to make loyal customers, to make them repeat buys etc. Loyalty and customers happiness ie customer`s feelings. One unhappy customer will make bigger impact than 5-10 happy customers, only it will be negative.Sorry but I do not want to spend time on explaining that, nor it is the main subject. You can google it, listen some of the world best speakers on that subject, read books if you want to find more about it. I just hope CCP has some people with knowledge, who can measure threats and side effects of such moves.
Half-Life 3 is not coming out. Sorry to burst the bubble.
No problem, I am not a fan of it so I was not aware. I am sure it had negative impact and that valve have created some unhappy customers because of it.
But you cannot compare apples and oranges. Half Life 3 is someones wish/expectation, coming from a company which distributes millions of games which target every possible kind of gamer out there. And they have millions of customers. How many percent of those customers care about HL3 to the point of quitting valve services? Minor, they can afford even losing them all.
CCP has its own niche market with way smaller player base focused in one game, which makes them much more vulnerable. That is why they should care much much more about things which affect their player base. Player base which has built this game. Ie most of the content which got majority of other players to come was done by players.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
434
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:33:32 -
[802] - Quote
First of all, thank you for the manner in which you posted this devblog. We appreciate the fact that you come to us to start a dialogue instead of dropping the bomb. Props and respect for that and it is the only reason I'm giving my feedback in many moons past.
Unfortunately that is the only positive thing I have to say about this devblog. Here are just some of the reasons I can think of:
I can't imagine too many players wishing to trade in real time for ISK. I'm sure some will but I don't think the supply will meet the demand. This will probably result in ridiculous prices, forcing new players to PLEX to afford this feature.
As already mentioned, veterans, especially those with fat ISK or RL wallets will still be able to use this system effectively, even if they have to pay 10x what newbie does. This further drives up the prices and results in RMT for skill reset and/or SP gain. This alone should have been enough to derail this train from leaving any CCP office room.
Character Bazaar was removed for good reasons and brought back because of Ebay/RMT and all the security risks associated with it. Since CCP has to monitor and execute transactions the two PLEX price was an understandable cost. Now that the system could be automated using game mechanics there is ZERO excuse for involving AUR or $$$ in this transaction.
While skill points are important, we all know that players skills are much more valuable. Instead of focusing on RMTing SP maybe we need to invest in better ways of making new players understand that.
Last but not least, SP, graphics, tutorials, and all the other NPE improvements are not the main reason why people join or stay in EVE. While those things help to some degree, the main driving factor for EVE's growth always has been its current player base. It is the players who were creating content, inviting friends, recruiting newbies, teaching and socializing with them that helped grow the game year after year. Look at EVE's beginning, when the game's NPE was total crap and yet it grew exponentially with no end in sight. Ask yourself why? Now ask yourself why has that stalled since Incarna?
I think it all boils down to this:
We used to have a set of beliefs about EVE and we thought that CCP shared those beliefs with us. We thought that CCP understood what makes EVE so great even if we couldn't quite express it with words. We were amazed by this universe and its curators, we were inspired to play, create and destroy. We were naturally compelled to bring in others and share this experience with them. Incarna shattered all that in a matter of days.
The mutual respect, trust and understanding we thought we shared with CCP was thrown out the window. So was our confidence in CCP to make decisions that would be in EVE's best interest. Uncertainty about EVE's future made us apprehensive about emotionally investing into the game. More and more we expend vast amounts of energy fighting CCP on this or that change rather than using that energy to make things happen inside the game. Many of us have either given up or continue to play half heartedly, being unable to put in real effort not knowing what crazy change tomorrow might bring. Luckily (for CCP) no other developer has figured out EVE's secret formula yet so it remains the only game that can provide this unique experience.
Incarna was four years ago, so what now? Dev blogs like this and many other actions show that the above is still true. CCP as a company still has not realized EVE's true greatness. If the executives of the company do understand this golden formula, they have not filtered it down to every person in the company and to every current or even potential player. This is why we are in a situation we are today. Some Devs/teams have a better feel for what makes EVE tick and put out great changes while others make the collective player base pull their hair out.
When you gain this fundamental understanding of what fuels New Eden, communicate it down to every person in the company, to the players, to the guy who never heard of EVE. When that happens, CCP and players together will bring New Eden to new heights never before imaginable and you will not need to worry about new player retention. You will only have to worry about making their experience more enjoyable.
Good luck with the thread o7 |
Hellusius
Siesta Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:34:56 -
[803] - Quote
Not too big of a fan of this change either.
I am all for doing something with skillpoints and making them make interpetable than just time and optimized skill attributes as they stand currently. I'd much rather relate skillpoint rewards or partial reallocations through invested effort or achieving something.
Ideas I've been wondering about were things like an epic journey/venture for each different branch of EVE (Industry, PI, Manufacturing, Exploration, PvE Combat,PvP Combat or Trading). An Example woud be an Epic venture that can only be done on a certain interval (like a month or a quarter) where you would have to venture different parts of EVE to go an gather a set of ORE's with a twist and turn here and there for the industrial wingers. It would also create a new form of content for each different EVE branch.
You could even create a design where you could propse the player with a reward between a reallocation or a bonus in skillpoints. The choice in the amounts would differ, where newer players would benefit more from a bonus and older players more from a reallocation.
Just some random cents =) |
Soldarius
Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore
1391
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:36:39 -
[804] - Quote
- Start new account using buddy program, 3x characters, each with 400k SP.
- Use free PLEX from buddy invite to buy extractors. Lots of them.
- Sell 1.2M SP for 600M isk (using current conversion rate*).
- Recycle characters, generating 3 new ones.
- Repeat steps 3 and 4 until extractors are used.
- Buy more extractors with generated isk.
- Go back to 3.
*A quick check of the character Bazaar shows SP converts to isk at a conservative value of 500 isk/SP.
Free infinite isk farming is a go. At least until the market is completely obliterated. Also, one could do this on a single account to funnel SP directly into their main, regardless of the diminishing returns because who cares? Free SP is free. Titans for everyone. PLEX at 500kkkkkkkkkkkkkk. Gallente and Caldari living together. Mass hysteria!
lel, I'm reminded of this Charlton Heston clip: https://youtu.be/9IKVj4l5GU4
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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CaptainMorgan49
Troglodytes of Narnia
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:36:48 -
[805] - Quote
Thoughts: 1) This idea will massively allienate your most committed players who have been in the game for a decade or more and have the prestige of a very highly skilled character. 2) This is a rather naked effort to generate more money, even aside from the aurum sales needed to generate skill extractors, a system giving (in the worst case) a 10:1 ratio of consumed SP to created SP is going to result in many more SP being needed to meet demand - i.e. more accounts that each need an account subscription. 3) Allowing characters to remove skills they don't happen to want any more is a removal of what makes each character unique. My main has survey V (no, I have no idea why I thought scanning moons fast was so vitally important!) and it is these differences that add an interest that be lost, particularly among low to moderate SP characters where there would be very little penalty for lots of respeccing.
Last, please, please do not remove the character bazaar. Saying the bazaar "won't go anywhere for now" is tantamount to saying "we are floating this change and if it goes down well, we will remove the bazaar".
I am completely unconvinced by the argument that it would be hard to integrate the bazaar into the game. Exactly how hard would it be to add "character" to the current contracts system? - You could add search criteria by total SP, level of any skill (or skill combination), name, sec status, etc. etc. - You could fix a character sheet like the players own to pop up on the "show info" command, showing everything relevant to sale in the same format as the current character sheet and replacing the current function of eveboard. - You could incorporate a "value" calculator which would take the market value of all implants off the sell price wanted for a character and divide by the SP the char has to give an "isk per sp" estimate. - You could use both the "sell" and "auction" contract types without need for modification. Such a system would remove a lot of the uncertainty about a characters value and make the finding of what you are looking for much, much simpler than trawling dozens of forum threads.
Is that really all that hard to program? My computer knowings are very limited but it seems to a punter such as me to be quite a small step when it essentially reuses a lot of mechanisms already in game and requires very little new. |
Xiomaro Puxi
Demonic Affliction Black Irish Industries
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:39:19 -
[806] - Quote
so this is one of the great ideas coming from the brightest minds to keep eve going? by the way there is no need to write a 2500 word essay explaining yourselves when a couple of paragraphs could do. sorry, am kinda disappointed, expected more. |
Barubary Evans
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:39:45 -
[807] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:
- Start new account using buddy program, 3x characters, each with 400k SP.
- Use free PLEX from buddy invite to buy extractors. Lots of them.
- Sell 1.2M SP for 600M isk (using current conversion rate*).
- Recycle characters, generating 3 new ones.
- Repeat steps 3 and 4 until extractors are used.
- Buy more extractors with generated isk.
- Go back to 3.
*A quick check of the character Bazaar shows SP converts to isk at a conservative value of 500 isk/SP.Free infinite isk farming is a go. At least until the market is completely obliterated. Also, one could do this on a single account to funnel SP directly into their main, regardless of the diminishing returns because who cares? Free SP is free. Titans for everyone. PLEX at 500kkkkkkkkkkkkkk. Gallente and Caldari living together. Mass hysteria! lel, I'm reminded of this Charlton Heston clip: https://youtu.be/9IKVj4l5GU4 Read the devblog. You can't extract if you'd go under 5 mil. You would have to train at least to 5.5 mil to be able to extract. Your infinite recycling scenario is impossible. |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
338
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:40:22 -
[808] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:
- Start new account using buddy program, 3x characters, each with 400k SP.
- Use free PLEX from buddy invite to buy extractors. Lots of them.
- Sell 1.2M SP for 600M isk (using current conversion rate*).
- Recycle characters, generating 3 new ones.
- Repeat steps 3 and 4 until extractors are used.
- Buy more extractors with generated isk.
- Go back to 3.
*A quick check of the character Bazaar shows SP converts to isk at a conservative value of 500 isk/SP.Free infinite isk farming is a go. At least until the market is completely obliterated. Also, one could do this on a single account to funnel SP directly into their main, regardless of the diminishing returns because who cares? Free SP is free. Titans for everyone. PLEX at 500kkkkkkkkkkkkkk. Gallente and Caldari living together. Mass hysteria! lel, I'm reminded of this Charlton Heston clip: https://youtu.be/9IKVj4l5GU4
people do this already
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1640
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:41:53 -
[809] - Quote
Pardon my slowness but I wanted to confirm, this system will allow SP to be removed from one character and traded to be added to another. The amount removed is static, but the amount received is diminished by the SP total of the receiving character?
I can't say I'm fond of it if my understanding is correct. Reasons as follows: -Creates an avenue for high speed alt creation through shedding unused skills from main characters. -Unlike the bazaar the SP is traded in allocatable form, removing any decision making from the seller to determine the value of the SP; conversely it also makes any desired skill set infinitely available which feels like reducing the value of training as a whole. -Features a degree of farmability for funneling SP into characters farmed from alts, though depending on the target character potentially at significant loss.
That said, I'm not totally against it since: a) It's actually a reduction of total SP in the game unless consumed exclusively bu characters under 5m SP. b) Still requires being trained and isn't generated out of nothing c) Is just as available if not more so than the bazaar
Have some thoughts to sort out on this one to make sure the dislike isn't just reactionary and philosophical vs being reasonable. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic
1670
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:43:02 -
[810] - Quote
Absolutely disagree with this idea. There is no reason to repeat what 41 pages of other people have said already on why.
GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!
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ADM Andria Ravencroft
United Excavation Services Silent Infinity
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:43:22 -
[811] - Quote
Okay.
I see both the pro's and the con's to this.
Pro, for someone like myself who is completing training of her rorqual skills this is an easy out to not spending another 60 days to max out it's skills to be a perfect booster.
Con side, is new players buying a ton of plex, buying a ton of Aur, buying a ton of the skill point packets and turning a 1 day old toon into a 1 man army. Thus negating having to learn anything about the game and taking the time to learn each ships abilities, and vulnrabilities.
It could go either way really.
Frankly allowing someone to rename a character after purchasing it and removing it's former History would be a much simpler solution.
Thus the new owner of said char can personalise it and thus it would no longer have a negative history. Making the buyer happier.
Frankly the cost to transfer a character is a bit absurd. 2 plex now range 2.4 to 2.6 billion isk. The cost to train an alt another 1.2 to 1.3 bil isk ontop of the 15.00 a month fee. Frankly there should be no cost to use your allocated char slots. since we can only have 3 chars on one account. That 15.00 a month sub should allow one to train all 3 if they should choose to do so. but that is just my opinion. |
Gonzo Liberace
Drones and FoFs
33
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:44:32 -
[812] - Quote
Where do I start? In the beginning there was training. And then there was more training. Skillpoints growing steadily, faster or slower, online or offline, subscription or not. But there was always this mantra, Eve online, the game where you progress even while offline. The Beauty. The Bane. Touted by some as one of the best features of this game. Disdained by others who abandoned the ship no longer excited by the prospect of waiting another 3 or 30 days to do X of fly Y or fit Z. When it comes to choices, Eve offers many but for a sandbox there was always this major impediment, if you want it to do something, as fast as possible but it implied a ship or a fitting you could not use, you were boned. Done. Fuxxored. Not on that character mate, no way. Yes, I know, this is a massively multiplayer online role playing game. As in you are supposed to band with others where one can not go or succeed alone. But it's still a game. Harsh and cruel as it may be sometimes, it is a game. And games are ultimately about goals and fun, goals you set and the fun you make on the way. There's no fun in waiting for that SP count to grow. No fun at all.
That being said, the way character progression works in Eve is the way this game makers envision it. It was their choice and the success of Eve Online means it was not a bad choice. Could it have been better? Anything can be improved. And not everybody likes everything.
Now is today. Today we consider putting characters to the meat grinder and sell them skillpoint by skillpoint to the highest bidder. Would it be the wrong decision? The doom scenario where the anti P2W crowd grabs the pitchforks and burn the place down, leaving in droves? I think not. This is not a leaked secret memo about golden ammo and gullible customers. This is a devblog asking, probably, honestly for feedback.
Probably. Eve online numbers are down, no question about it. So one has to ask: Could this actually be about a money grab? Sell them, sell them all but buy the Aurum. I have no idea. I don't know the financial status of CCP hf. Maybe it's in tatters and they must come up with ways of raising more money. Maybe it's doing ok and this a genuine idea intended for new and "Oops, I trained Anchoring V" players. However some will see it as a greedy move and they will assume that the boat is sinking. Some will hate this out of spite or hypocrisy or because they are archangels and everything else is tainted by vileness and sin. Yeah, that's hypocrisy again.
So a subset of Eve players will no doubt be very vocal against it or even quit over it. That's a risk. On one hand, it could be minor. On the other, unpredictable.
I choose to believe in the integrity of this idea. That it came along due to a concern about the long term health of this game and it's new blood. And I believe it will fail. I believe it will fail because it's can lead to the perception that the entry level in Eve is buying skillpoints. And that could be the beginning of the end.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1640
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:45:34 -
[813] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:
- Start new account using buddy program, 3x characters, each with 400k SP.
- Use free PLEX from buddy invite to buy extractors. Lots of them.
- Sell 1.2M SP for 600M isk (using current conversion rate*).
- Recycle characters, generating 3 new ones.
- Repeat steps 3 and 4 until extractors are used.
- Buy more extractors with generated isk.
- Go back to 3.
*A quick check of the character Bazaar shows SP converts to isk at a conservative value of 500 isk/SP.Free infinite isk farming is a go. At least until the market is completely obliterated. Also, one could do this on a single account to funnel SP directly into their main, regardless of the diminishing returns because who cares? Free SP is free. Titans for everyone. PLEX at 500kkkkkkkkkkkkkk. Gallente and Caldari living together. Mass hysteria! lel, I'm reminded of this Charlton Heston clip: https://youtu.be/9IKVj4l5GU4 I'm in doubt that the current rate of isk/SP could be maintained with the proposed system. The lack of need to sell an entire skillset and character, combined with a transfer cost under 2 plex will likely see that number drop dramatically.
|
Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:45:43 -
[814] - Quote
I vote NO to this.
I played an online world war 2 flight combat simulator called aces high since 1999 http://hitechcreations.com/ I have done work on skins for them and did work setting up entire battlefield terrains over 1000 square miles in size so I do have experience with being a vet player of something and I know the difference between what players want and what they ask for.
Now I can tell you in that sim I could kill noobs without blinking even though they flew the same planes as I did and I had no SP crutch just skill advantage.
Every aircraft in there was available at same performance levels from day one and vets killed noobs just as easily there as in eve only the noobs don't have an excuse to give themselves in that sim. It helped in that sim that I am a practicing aerobatic pilot in real life as well so the actual skill difference in a game like that makes it require no skill points.
A 10 year air combat vet will dominate air combat on any platform or game with realistic controls and physics versus a new player with no air combat experience. when I tried War Thunder on full realism I was killing noobs from day one of playing that sim as well as the applied skill transitioned across to this game.
so lets apply this logic to eve...
I find eve and I adapt my tactics to this game and have success even with barely 20mil skill points.
I learn that...
Low skill points only means you can not solo it means you must fly in a fleet. It also means you must choose one or two ships max and skill them out before adding more ships.
this game play mechanic mimics real life aviation training where you must get a type rating on larger aircraft and even smaller aircraft require training to proficiency in their operation.
I took great interest in the skill training system and found it to be one of the most ingenious aspects of retaining player interest as the fact remained you needed very little skill points to play and succeed if you understood combat tactics and it kept you always interested in what new feature you would have access to with time.
I considered buying a toon but that would shorten my journey in eve and I wanted to get there on my own and enjoy the ride. I felt I would only be cheating myself and I still feel this way and have enjoyed my eve experience from day one with no sp boosts or bought accounts.
I did however train skills relentlessly without missing a day even before the long skill que was added.
I hope CCP wakes up and drops this idea as it simply ruins an amazing aspect of eve that is unique and can be found in no other game.
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Elinara Yamamoto
Latex Entosis
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:50:11 -
[815] - Quote
This sounds like a really bad idea... what would stop me dropping 5000 or more $ on PLEX and massively raising my SP? This in turn would lead to me eliminating a massive chunk of my motivation for playing Eve, the long wait for the reward of having something new trained, more Level 5 skills and so forth...
If one argues I could just soil my fun already by buying a char from bazaar, no I can't. I can only play characters that i created, that are very close to my real self etc... otherwise my immersion is ruined. PLEASE CCP don't do this. |
Tyranis Marcus
Bloody Heathens
1452
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:50:17 -
[816] - Quote
I don't even know what to say here.
Sooooo...I'm just deleting what may be the most interesting post I've ever written. (Which isn't necessarily saying much.)
See what you 3%@!$#!@##'ers did!
Do not run. We are your friends.
|
Domanique Altares
Scrap Metal Squadron Point Blank Alliance
3444
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:50:46 -
[817] - Quote
Gospadin wrote:
Are you sure?
100% sure.
Quote:Barrier to entry is one of EVE's huge issues. New players see wonderful things in space their first week, then do the math and realize they can't even try advanced ships for months, nor fly them effectively for years. At that point, anyone with a brain would just de-commit on the whole effort and go play world of warships or whatever, which is essentially balanced fun between teams starting in the opening minutes.
And that's exactly what those people should do. EVE is not for them.
Quote: They've probably done the math, and figured out there is a subset of their population that would be happy if they could just chip in another $50 in the beginning to buy themselves up to 10M SP or whatever, thus letting them fly interceptors properly, or battleships without being complete liabilities. Those people would then stick around and keep paying for subscriptions.
They've more than likely done other math that tells them that after all this time, and all the changes, and cracking down on multiboxing, they need to do something to get cash other than just sell subscriptions, because that **** isn't keeping the lights on by itself anymore. Especially with an upcoming capital outlay into new hardware.
Quote:If you have some better ideas about how to improve EVE and increase the playerbase, I'm sure CCP is listening. You don't get to crap on other people's ideas if you don't have better answers.
I most certainly do get to crap on other people's ideas, even if I don't have better ones. But you can't buy that skill on the character bazaar. |
Optical Illusion
V0LTA WE FORM V0LTA
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:50:59 -
[818] - Quote
No.
Removing one of the last truly unique aspects of eve, to generate more income is bad.
Not to mention the 'promise' at the beginning that the aur store would never hold game changing items... only cosmetic.
Just no. |
Kanzero
Virtus Crusade Curatores Veritatis Alliance
53
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:51:42 -
[819] - Quote
Why is everyone sperging? This will NOT create sp out of nowhere. Players will have to extract their own sp in order to sell it to other players.
No new sp is created, it's just redistributed. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2053
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:52:02 -
[820] - Quote
Elinara Yamamoto wrote:This sounds like a really bad idea... what would stop me dropping 5000 or more $ on PLEX and massively raising my SP? This in turn would lead to me eliminating a massive chunk of my motivation for playing Eve, the long wait for the reward of having something new trained, more Level 5 skills and so forth...
If one argues I could just soil my fun already by buying a char from bazaar, no I can't. I can only play characters that i created, that are very close to my real self etc... otherwise my immersion is ruined. PLEASE CCP don't do this. So, you derive your fun from deliberately handicapping yourself?
You can still continue to do so. No one is forcing you to acquire skill boosters at gunpoint (or post-point.)
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Dracnys
83
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:53:33 -
[821] - Quote
Robnik Charante wrote:
[...]
I have been playing this game very actively for two and a half years. I have never once felt limited by my SP in any regard. There's plenty to do and learn at each step along the way. If you do feel limited and are also wealthy, the character bazaar, MCT, and alt accounts are perfectly fine means to quickly acquire additional toons. By introducing "ISK-for-SP", you're inviting the sort of unfun "XP grinding" that most of us loathe from other MMOs. Please, don't bring this cancer to EVE.
At first I was I was actually in favor of the change, but this argument convinced me that it's a bad idea. This is what it'll feel like to a new player: they are using all their ISK to buy skill packages to be able to do things that make them more ISK. That, or the packages will be prohibitively expensive and consequently they would only be able to afford them by buying PLEX with RL money - which screams pay to win.
Yes, the current character bazaar allows that kind of pay to win already, in principle. But as the blog details you won't get an individual character then, which makes it feel totally different. It's not yours. That way it also feels differently enough from buying straight-up SP that new players aren't immediately turned off.
The argument that the SP is also taken from another player's character doesn't count for much imo, the SP that'll be used for this is worthless anyway as it's not used. |
Ryan arovlodie
Bussin At Em Augmented Skirmish Resource Group
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:54:29 -
[822] - Quote
when I was a bit of a younger player, I started to train alts on my same account by stopping my training on this account. although it only has 900k SP, that's still nearly a million SP wasted due to my incompetence. can you take off the minimum 5 million SP restriction so that I can transfer these SP to my main?(my main has around 23) |
Babbet Bunny
31
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:54:48 -
[823] - Quote
Excellent way to correct the mistakes I made on my main to benefit an alt.
FYI- this does not create SP from thin air. just transfers at an equivalent or loss of SP.
I think this would be ultimately good for the game. I would limit how many and how offend it could be used though. |
BirdStrike
State War Academy Caldari State
56
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:54:58 -
[824] - Quote
This is beyond terribad for everyone except lazy players with attention defecits who want instant results. You are also goung to kill your biggest EVE glue (and cashcow) and i'll explain why:
Firstly, the tiered system to 'protect' veteran accounts is somewhat disingenuous. By giving older characters a lower cash out rate all you are doing is stealth nerfing their skillbase by allowing everyone else a quick and easy legup since they can instantly close the gap and get all those pita level V skills that we literally sat and watched paint dry (30 bloody days and more) with one click. That is BRUTALLY a kick in the teeth for everyone who subbed through all your crappiest design decisions, nerf wrecking balls and kept paying every month. And this is just the start of the problems.
Firstly, antone who plays this game long enough gets sick of it and needs to take a break. Once you've vested a year or more into your char you don't want it to fall behind, so even though you don't play you keep paying sub money every month to keep your skills going.
Amd guess what? Its that magical evemon skill training complete on some 120 day snorefest into a new class that has you logging back in for the excitement of playing with new shiny. During that time we werent playing you were collecting subs for nothing more than a sql record update. Thats been your cashcow, and when you dropped the ball the only reason huge people didnt unsub on mass.
So now that goes away, fed up of EvE? Unsub. Maybe you never come back, but if you do then you can just put the cash you saved into buying the SP you missed out on. I've got a feeling many will leave, few will return.
Next.
One of the best things has been about eve that within an average of 1800-2500 you can pretty much level peg with every char your own age. No more... Someone can get their wallet out and buff their 1 month toon to 50m...100m - however much they can afford out of the gate.
Now heres the problem
Smart pvp players check a char bio dob to assess how skilled a player likely is before engaging, it allows you to figure if that guy sat in x ship is likely all v maxed t2, or struggling to hold the thing together. All of a sudden we'll have 6 month old pkayers with maxed skills vs 5 year players. Thats unfair, that really is play to win because regardless of skill this game is a stats battle and the best pilot in the world cant break a maxed tank unless they have the sp derived dps to do it.
Moar problems: What creates loyal players is sp addiction. Thats why we all spend ours plotting our training to get max time/sp and dont drop sub time, all that out of the window. Unless i pay i will no longer be the smartest kid in school, i'll be millions of sp behind johnny wow and his mommys credit card.
And of course you are going to get his chunk of aurum lucre. Then in 3 months he'll be off to pkay something else. No more subs. Certainly if he goes from 1-100m sp via amex he's not going to have the sense of bond that spending 5-7 years skilling gives you.
The big sense of satisfaction of EVe is waiting. Knowing that in 4 days i'll have small railgun t2 and x amount more dps, etc. there is always a next goal to work towards. Other games dont have that. In Dayz epoch in less than one week farming aircraft i had a fleet of blackhawks and 20 safes full of guns and ammo. No more progression. No longer play.
The only reason i see you doung this is because you don't think EVE is going to be around long enough for the current new/middle players to get anywhere near the top of the sp, so this is a way to simply milk cash from people before the remaining pkayerbase evaporates and you turn the servers off and start making iphone games like every other game co.
Well, do this and ironically you will accellerate eves demise, for sure we'll all gorge on plex to breed huge bastard alt armys to donate their sp, the databanks will be purged of millions of chars as the trillionaires of eve consume every sp to max out, but ironically when all the current players consume all the dead sp what then?
When there is nothing more to work towards? We might all realise how little new content there is in game and call it a day.
And i hope you did your math: i suspect more sp will be consumed by the trillions of unspent isk than rl money, so if this is some beancounters way of monetising the chracter bazaar i think its going to fail. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2054
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:55:37 -
[825] - Quote
Kanzero wrote:Why is everyone sperging? This will NOT create sp out of nowhere. Players will have to extract their own sp in order to sell it to other players.
No new sp is created, it's just redistributed. It's typical kneejerk posting. Seeing Aurum/PLEX mentioned in conjunction with SP causes brain shutdowns and foaming at the mouth.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9237
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:55:44 -
[826] - Quote
CCP will already sell you ISK. You can already buy SP in the character bazaar.
So, while I think it's a dumb idea, I don't think it will have the impact a lot of you think it will. I'll not be running to the closet to get out my army surplus helmet to protect my head from the falling sky on this one, I think.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Jack De'alek
Stainless Enterprises
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:55:49 -
[827] - Quote
This idea has very gamebreaking implications. As it is right now, each individual character has a theoretical maximum sp. If I had been perfectly optimized and training skills at a rate of roughly 2500sp/hr, I would have significantly more sp than I do now. This of course would have been impossible, or near to it, given that this character's attributes were static based on my race and lineage choices.
This idea could, and will, for those with deep enough pockets, push characters beyond their theoretical maximum and effectively trivialize pilots who have been faithfully playing for years.
The only way I would support this idea is if characters could never exceed that theoretical sp number, because as someone who has stopped training for months at a time, it would benefit me immensely. If however, one could not inject skills or sp beyond theoretical maximum limits, then new players could never benefit from it. On the same token, characters my age who were more "dedicated" (loosely using the term because my commitment to my subscription has always been linked to my rl finances rather than my desire to pay/play) than i see less benefit as well.
Not gonna lie, I've often fantasized about being able to buy my "missing" skill points in one fell swoop, but just because I would stand to gain tremendously from this idea doesn't mean it isn't a terrible idea.
No, CCP. Don't do it. Eve has always been a long term game. Do not radically alter the purest, most brilliant game to date for the pursuit of a few more subs. Instant gratification types never last here in New Eden, and completely breaking the game isn't going to keep them around any longer. You're just going to betray your loyal followers. The blowback from this will be disastrous. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1869
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:58:03 -
[828] - Quote
Kanzero wrote:Why is everyone sperging? This will NOT create sp out of nowhere. Players will have to extract their own sp in order to sell it to other players.
No new sp is created, it's just redistributed.
In fact, it is just the opposite.
There are a few major points this solves for CCP.
One, they gain the ability to let new players catch up to older players in a less impersonal manner. Having to buy a character with a name you didn't decide to play EVE with after you get rich is silly. Now people attached to their name, corp history, or reg date can be a top SP player if they want.
Two, they gain a way to prove out the aurum for a high demand item. This is probably a stepping stone to moving gametime to aurum and plex dying off.
Three, this is an excellent way to not only draw older players back. But to allow those older players to cash in alts and juice their mains or just get some easy ISK. Many a character will likely get their brains turned to goo on the altar of a main with this patch. Brainnnnsssss
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.
Creator of Burn Jita
Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2054
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:58:26 -
[829] - Quote
Jack De'alek wrote:This idea has very gamebreaking implications. As it is right now, each individual character has a theoretical maximum sp. If I had been perfectly optimized and training skills at a rate of roughly 2500sp/hr, I would have significantly more sp than I do now. This of course would have been impossible, or near to it, given that this character's attributes were static based on my race and lineage choices.
This idea could, and will, for those with deep enough pockets, push characters beyond their theoretical maximum and effectively trivialize pilots who have been faithfully playing for years.
The only way I would support this idea is if characters could never exceed that theoretical sp number, because as someone who has stopped training for months at a time, it would benefit me immensely. If however, one could not inject skills or sp beyond theoretical maximum limits, then new players could never benefit from it. On the same token, characters my age who were more "dedicated" (loosely using the term because my commitment to my subscription has always been linked to my rl finances rather than my desire to pay/play) than i see less benefit as well.
Not gonna lie, I've often fantasized about being able to buy my "missing" skill points in one fell swoop, but just because I would stand to gain tremendously from this idea doesn't mean it isn't a terrible idea.
No, CCP. Don't do it. Eve has always been a long term game. Do not radically alter the purest, most brilliant game to date for the pursuit of a few more subs. Instant gratification types never last here in New Eden, and completely breaking the game isn't going to keep them around any longer. You're just going to betray your loyal followers. The blowback from this will be disastrous. You have a very strange concept of "purity" when the Character Bazaar exists, brazenly allowing you to circumvent these imagined ideals.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1670
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:58:50 -
[830] - Quote
yay day 1 rattlesnakes to gank
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic
1672
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:00:14 -
[831] - Quote
How does skill lore work? I mean, how can you explain loss of a skill? Even in the Matrix Neo didn't forget karate after plugin in the program. You could argue that you could destroy the knowledge in the brain, a la Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind....but you lose that knowledge, you can't transfer it.
Yeah yeah it's a game, but come on. Transferring skills? I always thought when you trained, you were READING a skill BOOK. Now we just spend some cash, gets some skill points?
Jesus this is a bad idea.
GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!
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Xander Scaul
Paxton Industries SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:00:58 -
[832] - Quote
CCP this has got to be one of the worst ideas you've come up with lately. Unless you are trying to **** players off... You guys are really starting to lose the plot at this point in time. |
Terra Chrall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
53
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:04:18 -
[833] - Quote
Babbet Bunny wrote:Excellent way to correct the mistakes I made on my main to benefit an alt.
FYI- this does not create SP from thin air. just transfers at an equivalent or loss of SP.
I think this would be ultimately good for the game. I would limit how many and how offend it could be used though. I was thinking the same thing. Like a 1 week or 1 month injection fatigue so you could not just blast millions of SP into 1 character. This would also help to keep the price in check as the demand would be kept down with the fatigue element. |
Zanaris
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:04:38 -
[834] - Quote
As for not for not being called kil2 - just simply allow name change but have history of name changes so corps can check you out. Have it cost a plex or two so you get the cash.
Old "pointless" skillpoints - Have the transfer use transfer points in the same way remaps have points. 1-2 new each year.
Each time you transfer you'll move up a "bracket". The 0-5 500k, 5-50 400k etc should remain but if you have 3 mil sp and use a sp transfer, next time you'll only get 400k regardless only having 3.5 mil now. After that 200k (though with these rules maybe 300, 200, 100, 50, nil)
Limit the skills to be used up to lvl4 or only on those skills that you can train on a trial account. Maybe limit it to utility skills. I think you need to go through each skill and decide to what level you could train it to.
Let it only be transferred from characters on the same account or at least registered under the same email/credit card.
With these rules you'll have every character on average use it twice i guess.
I'd love to rename and regender. When i created this character all matari males looked so incredible ugly that there was no way i could even play the game flying one of those. It would be really nice to extract some SP from my 70 mil character and add to this one so she can clear belts of rats before mining. I think it would feel wrong to add SPs to my 70 mil character and have her suddenly being able to fly Tengus or become a fully skilled trader. It wouldn't be her anymore. However, i would be fine to send some SP to an alt and having that one used for trading (ie lower sales costs etc, not "playing" the market).
This skill system that we currently have is a good tool against those who lack impulse control and "must have right now"s. They are just about always very annoying. While they're most likely poor IRL and can't afford many transfers, it's still nice to have them held down by the current skill system. |
Mixu Paatelainen
Colonial Defense Forces
216
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:05:32 -
[835] - Quote
You ever read something and the best articulation of what you think is slightly strained laughter? |
Rob Kashuken
Dropbears Anonymous Brave Collective
79
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:05:42 -
[836] - Quote
CCP has always maintained that if you could fly a ship / use a certain mod before skill modifications, you will always be able to use it.
Will this remain the case?
If so, then whilst the ROI is bad, you could rapidly get a new character into any ship, then strip the SP and either list them on the bazaar as "perfect links characters" etc.
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Horus V
The Destined
149
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:06:32 -
[837] - Quote
No. Please don't do this CCP
V
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2056
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Posted - 2015.10.15 21:07:01 -
[838] - Quote
Rob Kashuken wrote:CCP has always maintained that if you could fly a ship / use a certain mod before skill modifications, you will always be able to use it.
Will this remain the case?
If so, then whilst the ROI is bad, you could rapidly get a new character into any ship, then strip the SP and either list them on the bazaar as "perfect links characters" etc.
This does not mean what you think it means.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Terra Chrall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
53
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:08:21 -
[839] - Quote
Rob Kashuken wrote:CCP has always maintained that if you could fly a ship / use a certain mod before skill modifications, you will always be able to use it.
Will this remain the case?
If so, then whilst the ROI is bad, you could rapidly get a new character into any ship, then strip the SP and either list them on the bazaar as "perfect links characters" etc.
CCP already stated that you will not be able remove skills that are pre-reqs to other skills and that it would be in stations only so you would not be stranded in space in a ship you could no longer fly. So your answer is No, you will lose the ability to fly ships that you remove the skills for. |
Vabanaz Arjar
Damned Nebula Privateers
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:08:30 -
[840] - Quote
D+¬j+á vu! I have seen this before and I know what happens next:
1.) the Maketing Guy who had this Genius Idea is right: it will raise the Revenue and a year later you'll see some solid numbers. 2.) however suddenly many customers will leave and the pretty numbers will be down to near zero just another year later. 3.) many People lose their Jobs but at this Stage the Marketing Guy already changed to another company - and continues spreading his wisdom elsewhere.
don't make me sad, ccp
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voetius
Quiet Days in Clichy
395
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:09:05 -
[841] - Quote
If it is just a way to bring the Character Bazaar in to the game and make things more transparent then it would be a good thing.
However, I do wonder if CCP have thought about the possible side-effects. E.g. would eve gambling sites be allowed to have SP packages as "rewards"?
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2056
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:10:20 -
[842] - Quote
voetius wrote: If it is just a way to bring the Character Bazaar in to the game and make things more transparent then it would be a good thing.
However, I do wonder if CCP have thought about the possible side-effects. E.g. would eve gambling sites be allowed to have SP packages as "rewards"?
How would this be somehow wrong? It's just an in-game item.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Soldarius
Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore
1391
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:11:36 -
[843] - Quote
Barubary Evans wrote:Soldarius wrote:
- Start new account using buddy program, 3x characters, each with 400k SP.
- Use free PLEX from buddy invite to buy extractors. Lots of them.
- Sell 1.2M SP for 600M isk (using current conversion rate*).
- Recycle characters, generating 3 new ones.
- Repeat steps 3 and 4 until extractors are used.
- Buy more extractors with generated isk.
- Go back to 3.
*A quick check of the character Bazaar shows SP converts to isk at a conservative value of 500 isk/SP.Free infinite isk farming is a go. At least until the market is completely obliterated. Also, one could do this on a single account to funnel SP directly into their main, regardless of the diminishing returns because who cares? Free SP is free. Titans for everyone. PLEX at 500kkkkkkkkkkkkkk. Gallente and Caldari living together. Mass hysteria! lel, I'm reminded of this Charlton Heston clip: https://youtu.be/9IKVj4l5GU4 Read the devblog. You can't extract if you'd go under 5 mil. You would have to train at least to 5.5 mil to be able to extract. Your infinite recycling scenario is impossible.
C, right you are. Scratch that idea.
As far as other issues, PLEX prices will go up. Again. So will high-end learning implants as people begin creating accounts expressly for the purpose of SP farming for isk. And its completely passive income. Worse than moon goo.
With 32/26 in primary and secondary attribute (includes +5 implants and best neural remap for those skills), one would accumulate (32+26/2)=45 SP / min. That is 1.944M SP / mo. So to pay for the PLEX (1.2B isk) to run the account, one would have to charge 617.29 isk/SP before seeing any profit, and that does not include the cost of implants and skills. Also, there would be a delay of about 3 months before any sales could even be made because of the 5M SP limit.
So.... 30M isk for 50k SP? You'll forgive me if I don't think you'll be seeing a lot of newer players buying SP.
Also, the isk/hr on SP farming will be about 1.67M/hr at current PLEX rates. The cost of a pair of +5s is not terrible and it is a one-time cost that is easily distributed across the life-time of the pilot.
I'm thinking this entire thing will end badly.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3662
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:12:16 -
[844] - Quote
Scott Ormands wrote:On one hand im excited to get back the 3m sp wasted in mining on a carrier toon, on the other what is to stop me from trainging a command ship and then extracting all the boosting skills, so to speak. in that way i could still fly the command ship but would have gotten my boosting skills transfered into some other skill or sold for isk. its a way to beat the prereq system for almost anything. Built in rules for which skills can be extracted. The game would be programmed to not allow pre-reqs that are needed for existing skills to be extracted. CCP would have to do this or this idea really would be totally horrid.
As it is, I'm not sure why these two options are so different:
1) I spend money for PLEX. I use the PLEX to do a character transfer. CCP adds renaming and reskinning to characters. I rename and reskin the character I bought I now have a character with the skills, name, and skin I want.
2) I spend money on SP transfer items, I use the skill transfer items to get the SP I want I create a new character with the name and skil I want. I get the skills I want
I now have a character with the skills, name, and skin I want.
In both cases I spend real money and end up with a character with the skills, name, and skin I want.
Why is method 1 good and method 2 bad?
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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NUKUNNI TRADING
Grand.Theft.Auto
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:12:20 -
[845] - Quote
awful idea.
Please don't kill eve this way. |
WaypointExit
Moosearmy Gentlemen's.Parlor
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:12:34 -
[846] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:yay day 1 rattlesnakes to gank
Yeah, I don't get how vets don't see this, it will totally happen, and it's been proven those who get ganked counter intuitively don't quit. I am proof of this one. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1899
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:13:22 -
[847] - Quote
the good news: I can get mining off my character sheet forever \o/
the bad news: probably everything else
My question (probably been asked): does it count unallocated SP when injecting skills? if not make new character and rapidly inject skills till you have the desired number and then start allocating. having a day 1 character with 200mil SP does sound kinda fun though
and with SP as a finite resource, even with the diminishing returns, older players are more likely to have the resources to buy up a ton of SP.
that and buying SP seems like it would more or less be a requirement for AT teams. especially those using t3 cruisers.
not sure if I want to see it shipped just to see what happens, or kill it.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6848
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:17:09 -
[848] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:Yeah yeah it's a game, but come on. Transferring skills? I always thought when you trained, you were READING a skill BOOK. I thought skills were injected.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Carrie-Anne Moss
The Scope Gallente Federation
476
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:17:27 -
[849] - Quote
Greed is Good! Winter of Rage 2015-2016.
Pay2Win Isk4SP CreditCard2100millSP
Hell no ccp. Wtf is wrong with you.
Greed is NOT good holy hell wrf |
Crash69
Colonic Hyperbole
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:17:30 -
[850] - Quote
CCP, I've been playing your game for 6 years now and my character has 107m skill points. It would have been more except that I took a little break when you guys introduced $70 monocles and a locked door in my station hangar.
I am personally invested in my Character. I have patiently waited 30+ days for my minmatar battleship skills to reach level 5 and I patiently waited another 30+ days for my gallente battleship skills to reach level 5 (etc...)
I'm going to be brutally honest - the only reason I play the game is because I am so personally invested in my character. Also, I have recently realized that my character has reached a plateau as far as character training is concerned. There are very few skills left that unlock content that I'm interested in. In other words, my patience is no longer being rewarded.
Your proposal is essentially devaluing my patience.
Here's another reason that your proposal is so short sighted: You are going to allow new players to come into a game and spend $45 to skill up their characters, they'll play for 6 months or so and then realize the content is crap. They'll chalk up the $45 and sub cost as an investment in another bad game and then walk away. There is no reason for them to stick around to see what Amarr BS 5 unlocks because...its already unlocked. New players will have little attachment to their characters because their characters will have very little history and because they haven't had the time to develop the in game relationships that make EVE what it is.
This thread is closing 50 pages as I write this and the post has only been up a few hours. I strongly suggest you listen to what your customers are telling you because its obvious you weren't listening when CSM told you it was a bad idea. |
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1700
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:18:06 -
[851] - Quote
I don't think this will result in a way to "catch up" for new players. This market will probably be controlled by the big alliances right away and the prices for a pack will be astronomic.
"Why?" you ask?
Because they have a lot of ISK and the ability to completely bypass the skill requirements by just supplying your pilots with the SP to instantly fly the new meta will be a game changer. They can and will not ignore this.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Zanaris
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:18:17 -
[852] - Quote
Vabanaz Arjar wrote:D+¬j+á vu! I have seen this before and I know what happens next:
1.) the Maketing Guy who had this Genius Idea is right: it will raise the Revenue and a year later you'll see some solid numbers. 2.) however suddenly many customers will leave and the pretty numbers will be down to near zero just another year later. 3.) many People lose their Jobs but at this Stage the Marketing Guy already changed to another company - and continues spreading his wisdom elsewhere.
don't make me sad, ccp
Haha this is soooo true |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2056
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:18:39 -
[853] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Greed is Good! Winter of Rage 2015-2016.
Pay2Win Isk4SP CreditCard2100millSP
Hell no ccp. Wtf is wrong with you.
Greed is NOT good holy hell wrf How is this even remotely related to "Greed is Good"?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Zanaris
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:19:47 -
[854] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:I don't think this will result in a way to "catch up" for new players. This market will probably be controlled by the big alliances right away and the prices for a pack will be astronomic.
"Why?" you ask?
Because they have a lot of ISK and the ability to completely bypass the skill requirements by just supplying your pilots with the SP to instantly fly the new meta will be a game changer. They can and will not ignore this.
So.. join big alliance, get skillpoints, quit
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
167
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:19:54 -
[855] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:CCP will already sell you ISK. You can already buy SP in the character bazaar. So, while I think it's a dumb idea, I don't think it will have the impact a lot of you think it will. I'll not be running to the closet to get out my army surplus helmet to protect my head from the falling sky on this one, I think. Mr Epeen Whilst SP is not being created from nothing, you are freeing up massive amounts of SP on characters that don't need those particular skills they trained.
Like you say it is a dumb idea anyway so why take that risk, personally i'd much rather see changes to the character bazaar and attempting to integrate that into the game, and perhaps allow a history wipe at the cost of SP (perhaps 25% SP loss).
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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voetius
Quiet Days in Clichy
395
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:20:11 -
[856] - Quote
Querns wrote:voetius wrote: If it is just a way to bring the Character Bazaar in to the game and make things more transparent then it would be a good thing.
However, I do wonder if CCP have thought about the possible side-effects. E.g. would eve gambling sites be allowed to have SP packages as "rewards"?
How would this be somehow wrong? It's just an in-game item.
It wouldn't be wrong if it was allowed. My question, although hypothetical, was meant to highlight that there could be consequences that people thought were subjectively undesirable. |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2709
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:20:40 -
[857] - Quote
Cash to CCP for 500k SP transfers.
This isn't the end, but you can see it from here. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2056
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:22:19 -
[858] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Cash to CCP for 500k SP transfers.
This isn't the end, but you can see it from here. CCP already takes its pound of flesh for character transfers. Thinking that they'd remove it in this case is idiotic.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1640
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:23:15 -
[859] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:CCP will already sell you ISK. You can already buy SP in the character bazaar. So, while I think it's a dumb idea, I don't think it will have the impact a lot of you think it will. I'll not be running to the closet to get out my army surplus helmet to protect my head from the falling sky on this one, I think. Mr Epeen Whilst SP is not being created from nothing, you are freeing up massive amounts of SP on characters that don't need those particular skills they trained. Like you say it is a dumb idea anyway so why take that risk, personally i'd much rather see changes to the character bazaar and attempting to integrate that into the game, and perhaps allow a history wipe at the cost of SP (perhaps 25% SP loss). How does that idea actually bring any character bazaar functions into the game? Character sales exist primarily for acquiring training, not erasing history. |
Do Little
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
200
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:24:00 -
[860] - Quote
After a recent account consolidation, I ended up with 2 Exhumer pilots on the same account - roughly 2 million wasted skillpoints. After reading this devblog my initial reaction was great - I can transfer some of these SP to another character. On reflection, I agree this is not a good idea. The game is about setting goals and achieving those goals - if you can simply buy the achievements they are essentially worthless.
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2709
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:24:38 -
[861] - Quote
Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Cash to CCP for 500k SP transfers.
This isn't the end, but you can see it from here. CCP already takes its pound of flesh for character transfers. Thinking that they'd remove it in this case is idiotic. You missed the point. And, as an aside you've already done a good job of showing us why character transfers are not the same as SP transfers:
Querns wrote:
Also, you're significantly overestimating the number of times any one person would rush out to the character bazaar and snatch up a custom-made character just to stay ahead of the FOTM.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1640
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:26:14 -
[862] - Quote
Do Little wrote:After a recent account consolidation, I ended up with 2 Exhumer pilots on the same account - roughly 2 million wasted skillpoints. After reading this devblog my initial reaction was great - I can transfer some of these SP to another character. On reflection, I agree this is not a good idea. The game is about setting goals and achieving those goals - if you can simply buy the achievements they are essentially worthless. So they've been worthless since the Bazaar was introduced and this would change nothing?
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adriaans
Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:26:44 -
[863] - Quote
No. No. NO. NO
Very bad idea!
I do NOT like this.
Please do not do this.
Pay for character rename or re-model, that is perfectly fine. Skillpoints, not a chance in hell I will ever support that.
----True oldschool solo pvp'er----
My latest vid: Insanity IV
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Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:27:24 -
[864] - Quote
Vabanaz Arjar wrote:D+¬j+á vu! I have seen this before and I know what happens next:
1.) the Maketing Guy who had this Genius Idea is right: it will raise the Revenue and a year later you'll see some solid numbers. 2.) however suddenly many customers will leave and the pretty numbers will be down to near zero just another year later. 3.) many People lose their Jobs but at this Stage the Marketing Guy already changed to another company - and continues spreading his wisdom elsewhere.
don't make me sad, ccp
Well said Vabanaz Arjar.
I vote NO to this skill point selling plan period!
For a long term game like eve being helmed by developers that can not even fathom this long term concept is a sign that they will likely implement this disastrous skill selling scheme.
EVE will end up with their great numbers for a year and then as you said when the proverbial $#!t hits the fan the "genius" who thought of this skill point selling scheme and got it shoved down CCP's customers throats will have already left for his next con job.
Lots of jobs will be lost when the customer base that was being retained by the threat of lost skill training time to skill points disappears when this incentive becomes irrelevant.
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
167
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:27:25 -
[865] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:CCP will already sell you ISK. You can already buy SP in the character bazaar. So, while I think it's a dumb idea, I don't think it will have the impact a lot of you think it will. I'll not be running to the closet to get out my army surplus helmet to protect my head from the falling sky on this one, I think. Mr Epeen Whilst SP is not being created from nothing, you are freeing up massive amounts of SP on characters that don't need those particular skills they trained. Like you say it is a dumb idea anyway so why take that risk, personally i'd much rather see changes to the character bazaar and attempting to integrate that into the game, and perhaps allow a history wipe at the cost of SP (perhaps 25% SP loss). How does that idea actually bring any character bazaar functions into the game? Character sales exist primarily for acquiring training, not erasing history. I don't use the character bazaar myself so I can't give you a conclusive answer to that. But going by CCP Rise's devblog the characters history and being stuck with a name he didn't want was a big drawback to using the bazaar. I can understand that point and so that is why I suggested a compromise could possibly be to erase history at the cost of SP loss.
If someone is willing to lose 25% of their SP to wipe their character then I'd say that is pretty reasonable. And after all it isn't unthinkable that in a high tec sci fi universe that there wouldn't be some way to erase ones identity at a cost.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2057
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:28:33 -
[866] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Cash to CCP for 500k SP transfers.
This isn't the end, but you can see it from here. CCP already takes its pound of flesh for character transfers. Thinking that they'd remove it in this case is idiotic. You missed the point. And, as an aside, you've already done a good job of showing us why character transfers are not the same as SP transfers: Querns wrote:
Also, you're significantly overestimating the number of times any one person would rush out to the character bazaar and snatch up a custom-made character just to stay ahead of the FOTM.
Mechanically, no, of course it's not the same. However, that's not the point -- the new mechanic doesn't actually add any new capability to the game, other than the ability to sap SP out of a pilot's head, if for whatever reason you needed to do that on its own merits irrespective of material benefit.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Cheapshot Calamity
The Idiot Kings Get Off My Lawn
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:29:11 -
[867] - Quote
ITT: buttmad old people yelling that someone else is allowed to have the same type of pie as them without slaving for 10 bajillion years.
GET REKT. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2057
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:29:57 -
[868] - Quote
adriaans wrote:No. No. NO. NO
Very bad idea!
I do NOT like this.
Please do not do this.
Pay for character rename or re-model, that is perfectly fine. Skillpoints, not a chance in hell I will ever support that. The existence of the Character Bazaar must really irk you.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
542
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:29:57 -
[869] - Quote
The notion that you should be able to simply purchase skills/ skill points, and the time invested in them, goes against everything I believed this game stood for.
Yes, i understand that basically people have been doing this all the time via the existing character bazaar, but at least in that case you were buying the whole package - the name, the skills, the reputation et al. This "proposal" drives a stake through the very heart of your identity in Eve.
I look fondly on my many millions of skill points on my two toons, and in fact I was looking forward to the day when I could post in the 200 level V skills thread. Now all cheapened - once again CCP wants it all to be about your credit card, and not the central tenet of your investment of time in this game.
.......no.
I am a pod pilot:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
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Corin Lethander
Quantum Star Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:32:28 -
[870] - Quote
Ok guys, yea. This is crap. Presented to the corp mates and friends, they literally stated their selling their accounts and are done. Any kind of idea that promotes that kind of response, is bad, m'kay?
If you have to do it... "MAYBE" leave it just between your accounts or perhaps, just between 1 character. I would love to respec my stupid mining points to something more productive, but trading them between toons and different accounts.... CCP please.. and CSM guys, please, shut this down. |
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2710
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:33:57 -
[871] - Quote
Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Cash to CCP for 500k SP transfers.
This isn't the end, but you can see it from here. CCP already takes its pound of flesh for character transfers. Thinking that they'd remove it in this case is idiotic. You missed the point. And, as an aside, you've already done a good job of showing us why character transfers are not the same as SP transfers: Querns wrote:
Also, you're significantly overestimating the number of times any one person would rush out to the character bazaar and snatch up a custom-made character just to stay ahead of the FOTM.
Mechanically, no, of course it's not the same. However, that's not the point -- the new mechanic doesn't actually add any new capability to the game, other than the ability to sap SP out of a pilot's head, if for whatever reason you needed to do that on its own merits irrespective of material benefit. If, some years ago, you told me that by paying a small fee to CCP + some in-game mechanism I could directly add as much SP as I desired, to any character that I desired? I would've laughed. Eve was about meaningful choices, long term planning.
But now? Well....like the man said: "It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here." |
Arec Bardwin
1881
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:34:54 -
[872] - Quote
Personally I think this is a REALLY bad idea for a number of reasons.
It will hugely favor older, richer players that can afford to purchase sp for their mains, nevermind diminishing returns. They will also be able to instantly create any perfectly focused alt whenever they want to.
For newer players it will create a HORRIBLE sp grind pressure. Since the new sp transfer feature will have a VASTLY lower barrier of use, compared to the existing character transfer. You can now buy sp in small increments whenever needed, instead of buying a new character that you have no emotional bond to (Yes, most players have an emotional bond to their first main).
"You cannot fly that doctrine ship good enough, just buy 1.5m sp and put then into the following skills......."
This fundamentally changes how people relate to sp gain, and EVE Online will now be catering to the instant gratification crowd. This is not a slippery slope, it's a ****ing vertical drop. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1640
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:38:26 -
[873] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:I don't use the character bazaar myself so I can't give you a conclusive answer to that. But going by CCP Rise's devblog the characters history and being stuck with a name he didn't want was a big drawback to using the bazaar. I can understand that point and so that is why I suggested a compromise could possibly be to erase history at the cost of SP loss.
If someone is willing to lose 25% of their SP to wipe their character then I'd say that is pretty reasonable. And after all it isn't unthinkable that in a high tec sci fi universe that there wouldn't be some way to erase ones identity at a cost. That still effectively leaves the same issue intact. You're stuck with a character that a) can't do what you want due to needing to wipe significant training or b) stuck with a character that does do what you want but has an identity you don't want.
The alternative is to buy characters worth significantly more than what you are looking for, but that doesn't resolve the issue of wanting to associate the skills with your character. The idea in the blog solves that, your's does not. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2060
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:41:55 -
[874] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote: If, some years ago, you told me that by paying a small fee to CCP + some in-game mechanism I could directly add as much SP as I desired, to any character that I desired? I would've laughed. Eve was about meaningful choices, long term planning.
But now? Well....like the man said: "It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here."
"Some small in-game mechanism" is literally liquidating the SP of others, and applying it imperfectly towards your character.
I suppose if you were deliberately obtuse and boiling down the whole thing into that disingenuous quip then it'd be different.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Krispy Dingo
Strangers in a Strange Land
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:42:13 -
[875] - Quote
The problem I see here is that it does give you the ability to actually buy SP. That is terribad. SP should never be able to be purchased. A lot of people claiming this as Pay2Win? no, of course it's not. It's not different than buying a bunch of PLEX, selling it on the market, then using that ISK to buy a character off the bazaar. Just because you have the skills doesn't mean you necessarily know how to use them, and anyone who already knows how to use the skills has put the time into the game where it doesn't make a difference.
Here is where, in my opinion, it would work better.
As opposed to giving you unallocated SP, it actually does a rewrite of current SP.
Player 1 buys a skill extractor, pulls out 500,000SP of the skills he wants to remove, which are now unallocated, and can now reallocate those skills to something else.
Player 1 then uses those extracted skills to create the packet for the specific skills that he has extracted.
Player 2 can now buy the packet on the market, for those skills only.
Player 2 can now inject those skills, but in order to do so, he must give up 500,000SP of skills he has already trained to learn those new skills. In addition, he is learning the skills starting from 0SP for the skills he is injecting. Or, if he already has some level of training, they add on to what he already has in those skills.
This means that Player 2 doesn't need to buy skill books to train the skills, but gives him the chance to respec as well, and the market will drive the price of what skill packets are the most valuable at any given time.
Of course, if you don't have the necessary prereqs for the packet of skills you just purchased, then you cannot inject that packet of skills.
Website
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Aristash
The Flying Dead. The Afterlife.
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:42:43 -
[876] - Quote
If CCP adds Skills for Aurum(plex)
Aristash and 3 other alt's will stop paying for Eve online.
Stop doing stfu thing with my Eve!
Kick producers of Eve right now, You must playing in Eve then do something with game.
CCP you are not playing anymore. Shame on you... |
VaL Iscariot
The Concilium Enterprises The Volition Cult
83
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:42:48 -
[877] - Quote
Stop trying to make buying skill points happen. Its not going to happen. Now, I wouldnt mind something that let me shuffle my ownn skill points around for aurm. Never the market though. No no no. |
Opner Dresden
Lugus Foundry The Explicit Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:43:06 -
[878] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Moac Tor wrote:I don't use the character bazaar myself so I can't give you a conclusive answer to that. But going by CCP Rise's devblog the characters history and being stuck with a name he didn't want was a big drawback to using the bazaar. I can understand that point and so that is why I suggested a compromise could possibly be to erase history at the cost of SP loss.
If someone is willing to lose 25% of their SP to wipe their character then I'd say that is pretty reasonable. And after all it isn't unthinkable that in a high tec sci fi universe that there wouldn't be some way to erase ones identity at a cost. That still effectively leaves the same issue intact. You're stuck with a character that a) can't do what you want due to needing to wipe significant training or b) stuck with a character that does do what you want but has an identity you don't want. The alternative is to buy characters worth significantly more than what you are looking for, but that doesn't resolve the issue of wanting to associate the skills with your character. The idea in the blog solves that, your's does not.
You want a particular skill on a particular character? Train it. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9239
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:43:12 -
[879] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote: I don't use the character bazaar myself so I can't give you a conclusive answer to that..
I spend more time in the Character Bazaar than I do in General Discussion. I can give you a conclusive answer.
About 10% of buyers care about name/reputation. They are primarily newish players buying their first character. The other 90% want one thing. The cheapest price for the type of character they are looking for. They'll buy it, use it, and sell it again when they get tired of it.
One example. Most of the WTBs right now are for Capital sitters. Do you really think these people care that the name is stupid or that they have GS, CODE and Test in the corp history? Of course not.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Colt Blackhawk
bad InTentiOnZ senseless intentions
313
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:43:32 -
[880] - Quote
Lots of hysteria here without any reasons behind it. Eve is already pay to win and some "pro" vets are now crying. Just show me the difference between: a) Buying plex with money, selling it on market and then buying a char for isk on the character market. b) Buying plex with money, seling it on market and then buying skill points for isk from another character.
Yep there is none :P Apart from the fact that the new idea is a lot more comfortable. But hey we have a "vets cry thread" now. Sometimes I think the old players are killing this game. Eve is already pay to win. All you need is isk or RL money to buy toons and multibox.
[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
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Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
438
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:44:59 -
[881] - Quote
Another thought if this plan goes ahead: Create a second type of unallocated SP (different from the Skill reimbursement / refund / whathaveyou pool that we have now). This injectable SP can only go into this second Transneural Skillpoints pool.
This second pool can only be used to train skills that can be trained on Trial accounts. This would limit what all it can be used for, and would orient it more towards newer characters than old and rich ones.
Planning a trip to Thera? Check out http://eve-scout.com/ for a list of the current connections.
Once you've made your choice, join the EvE-Scout channel and request a scout to make sure your connection is clear!
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
5840
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:45:16 -
[882] - Quote
I am amused that the "solution" to the character bazaar being out-of-game is to destroy it entirely.
SP for money is a bad idea. The people most able to exploit this feature will be those setting up short-lived characters on new accounts.
The beauty of the character bazaar is that you are paying for the right skills, not just a number of SP. Bonus points for clean history and a good name.
Rather than SP for ISK, bring the character bazaar into the game. Allow ads on bulletin boards and CQ screens.
Day 0 Advice for New Players
|
Fredou
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:45:29 -
[883] - Quote
No please no
I'm not going to read the previous 44 pages
why on earth would you want to do this? really
i have started playing eve nearly 10 -+ years ago
i have over 230m sp
you can gain about ~ 24m per year
why would you want to kill this?
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Dreiden Kisada
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:46:18 -
[884] - Quote
No. This is not a good idea. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1641
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:46:21 -
[885] - Quote
Opner Dresden wrote:You want a particular skill on a particular character? Train it. Why should that be the only option? If someone else is willing to sell it, why can't I buy it like anything else? No one tells you if you want a ship to mine for it and build it yourself. Why is this different?
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2060
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:46:23 -
[886] - Quote
Aristash wrote:If CCP adds Skills for Aurum(plex)
Aristash and 3 other alt's will stop paying for Eve online.
Stop doing stfu thing with my Eve!
Kick producers of Eve right now, You must playing in Eve then do something with game.
CCP you are not playing anymore. Shame on you... Good thing they are not adding Skills for Aurum, then.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Arec Bardwin
1885
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:47:34 -
[887] - Quote
Colt Blackhawk wrote:Lots of hysteria here without any reasons behind it. Eve is already pay to win and some "pro" vets are now crying. Just show me the difference between: a) Buying plex with money, selling it on market and then buying a char for isk on the character market. b) Buying plex with money, seling it on market and then buying skill points for isk from another character.
Yep there is none :P Apart from the fact that the new idea is a lot more comfortable. But hey we have a "vets cry thread" now. Sometimes I think the old players are killing this game. Eve is already pay to win. All you need is isk or RL money to buy toons and multibox. You realise that the pro vets with unlimited wallets would profit the most from this, don't you?
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2060
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:47:37 -
[888] - Quote
Fredou wrote:No please no
I'm not going to read the previous 44 pages
why on earth would you want to do this? really
i have started playing eve nearly 10 -+ years ago
i have over 230m sp
you can gain about ~ 24m per year
why would you want to kill this?
How do the proposed changes kill anything?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Suitonia
True Solo
659
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:48:21 -
[889] - Quote
This is a good change in my opinion. It will really help people who are looking to upgrade their character, but don't want to change the background, story, reputation and history that they've created.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2060
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:48:44 -
[890] - Quote
Arec Bardwin wrote:Colt Blackhawk wrote:Lots of hysteria here without any reasons behind it. Eve is already pay to win and some "pro" vets are now crying. Just show me the difference between: a) Buying plex with money, selling it on market and then buying a char for isk on the character market. b) Buying plex with money, seling it on market and then buying skill points for isk from another character.
Yep there is none :P Apart from the fact that the new idea is a lot more comfortable. But hey we have a "vets cry thread" now. Sometimes I think the old players are killing this game. Eve is already pay to win. All you need is isk or RL money to buy toons and multibox. You realise that the pro vets with unlimited wallets would profit the most from this, don't you? How? They have to spend ten times as much ISK for the same benefit as a new player would.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2714
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:48:46 -
[891] - Quote
Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: If, some years ago, you told me that by paying a small fee to CCP + some in-game mechanism I could directly add as much SP as I desired, to any character that I desired? I would've laughed. Eve was about meaningful choices, long term planning.
But now? Well....like the man said: "It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here."
"Some small in-game mechanism" is literally liquidating the SP of others, and applying it imperfectly towards your character. I suppose if you were deliberately obtuse and boiling down the whole thing into that disingenuous quip then it'd be different. It's not obtuse at all. I pay money to CCP. I gain arbitrarily large amounts of SP on an arbitrary character of my choice. Someone else loses some arbitrary number of SP. It's a clever twist, but, here's the rub, this still happens:
$$$ to CCP <------>Direct, instant, arbitrarily large SP gain on any character of my choice.
It's like SOMER Blink. Lot's of stuff happened in that scheme, people won prizes, community events were organized, etc. But, in the end, RMT still happened. You can twist it all you want, but RMT is RMT.
And here? Yeah, there's a twist. The matador has a shiny red cape with the word "liquidating" embroidered and everything. But, in the end, I am buying instant, bulk SP for my character with cash going to CCP. It is what it is. Direct purchase of bulk SP via CCP. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1641
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:48:50 -
[892] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:I am amused that the "solution" to the character bazaar being out-of-game is to destroy it entirely.
SP for money is a bad idea. The people most able to exploit this feature will be those setting up short-lived characters on new accounts.
The beauty of the character bazaar is that you are paying for the right skills, not just a number of SP. Bonus points for clean history and a good name.
Rather than SP for ISK, bring the character bazaar into the game. Allow ads on bulletin boards and CQ screens.
It's actually gaining SP from equal or more SP+money given up. It's essentially the bazaar without buying the name and history with the character.
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Sjxx
Moira. Villore Accords
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:48:51 -
[893] - Quote
Excellent idea. I really hope this is implemented soon...can't wait to start shopping! |
Jack De'alek
Stainless Enterprises
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:51:32 -
[894] - Quote
Querns wrote:Jack De'alek wrote:This idea has very gamebreaking implications. As it is right now, each individual character has a theoretical maximum sp. If I had been perfectly optimized and training skills at a rate of roughly 2500sp/hr, I would have significantly more sp than I do now. This of course would have been impossible, or near to it, given that this character's attributes were static based on my race and lineage choices.
This idea could, and will, for those with deep enough pockets, push characters beyond their theoretical maximum and effectively trivialize pilots who have been faithfully playing for years.
The only way I would support this idea is if characters could never exceed that theoretical sp number, because as someone who has stopped training for months at a time, it would benefit me immensely. If however, one could not inject skills or sp beyond theoretical maximum limits, then new players could never benefit from it. On the same token, characters my age who were more "dedicated" (loosely using the term because my commitment to my subscription has always been linked to my rl finances rather than my desire to pay/play) than i see less benefit as well.
Not gonna lie, I've often fantasized about being able to buy my "missing" skill points in one fell swoop, but just because I would stand to gain tremendously from this idea doesn't mean it isn't a terrible idea.
No, CCP. Don't do it. Eve has always been a long term game. Do not radically alter the purest, most brilliant game to date for the pursuit of a few more subs. Instant gratification types never last here in New Eden, and completely breaking the game isn't going to keep them around any longer. You're just going to betray your loyal followers. The blowback from this will be disastrous. You have a very strange concept of "purity" when the Character Bazaar exists, brazenly allowing you to circumvent these imagined ideals.
Yes, the bazaar exists, but in it's form it is still impossible to circumvent maximum possible sp. As I said, I would benefit immensely from the purchase of sp, but I'm disinclined to believe that any implementation of any feature that allowed characters to surpass these limits is a good idea.
Allowing characters to inject skills breaks a CEO or recruiter's ability to properly vet recruits and secure themselves against potential loss.
Quick battlefield assessments can no longer be counted on to find weak links in enemy fleets. To that end, those that prey on the weak will no longer be able to choose victims properly. Basically any informed decision that can be gleaned from character age through a quick show info or any other method short of an api check is no longer accurate.
The above are just a couple of tangible examples of the results of such a system. All i'm saying, is the consequences of allowing characters to exceed their maximum SP are gamebreaking, or at the very least game changing, and I'm fairly sure there's plenty more I haven't thought of. I really don't think it's a good idea.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2060
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:52:19 -
[895] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: If, some years ago, you told me that by paying a small fee to CCP + some in-game mechanism I could directly add as much SP as I desired, to any character that I desired? I would've laughed. Eve was about meaningful choices, long term planning.
But now? Well....like the man said: "It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here."
"Some small in-game mechanism" is literally liquidating the SP of others, and applying it imperfectly towards your character. I suppose if you were deliberately obtuse and boiling down the whole thing into that disingenuous quip then it'd be different. It's not obtuse at all. I pay money to CCP. I gain arbitrarily large amounts of SP on an arbitrary character of my choice. Someone else loses some arbitrary number of SP. It's a clever twist, but, here's the rub, this still happens: $$$ to CCP <------>Direct, instant, arbitrarily large SP gain on any character of my choice.It's like SOMER Blink. Lot's of stuff happened in that scheme, people won prizes, community events were organized, etc. But, in the end, RMT still happened. You can twist it all you want, but RMT is RMT. And here? Yeah, there's a twist. The matador has a shiny red cape with the word "liquidating" embroidered and everything. But, in the end, I am buying instant, bulk SP for my character with cash going to CCP. It is what it is. Direct purchase of bulk SP via CCP. Again, as I have strenuously pointed out, the character bazaar does the exact same thing. Has for years. CCP gets theirs on every transfer.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1641
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:52:23 -
[896] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:It's not obtuse at all. I pay money to CCP. I gain arbitrarily large amounts of SP on an arbitrary character of my choice. Someone else loses some arbitrary number of SP. It's a clever twist, but, here's the rub, this still happens:
$$$ to CCP <------>Direct, instant, arbitrarily large SP gain on any character of my choice. This is untrue. Giving money directly to CCP as proposed only gives you the capacity to remove SP from an existing character. At the point of giving money to CCP, this is the only thing you can do, and must be done in order to actually generate the SP for another character to use.
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Hauke Martensen
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:52:24 -
[897] - Quote
I've been playing EVE for close to 3 years now, no bittervet yet but no new player either. With or without this proposed change I expect to continue playing for quite some time to come.
But had Transneural Skill Packets been in the game when I started playing I most likely wouldn't have made it past my first year (maximum - 3 to 6 months more likely) before unsubscribing.
For one thing it doesn't matter if the proposed mechanic really is pay to win or not: for a new player it definitely looks like pay to win and I refuse to really get involved into games like that. I may fool around with them for a while, but I won't immerse myself in them and I know right from the start that I'll drop them within a couple of months.
But more importantly the skill limitations during my first months were a, if not the main factor, that forced me to really commit to the game, that made playing EVE that intense of an experience when I started and that got me completely hooked up in the end.
I went into fw within my first month of playing EVE, right from the start with the intention to become a pvp pilot. I knew very well that I wouldn't be able to compete with pretty much everybody else in that area for quite some time, but I also knew that the time it would take me to become at least somewhat competetive would depend on how fast I would get an understanding of the game and on how well I would be able to apply that and plan ahead - read on my skills as a gamer. So I dived into the game, I spend hours a day searching for online resources and digesting them, I planned ahead, fumbled , adapted my plans, improved, fumbled again, changed my plans another time and so on and so on. It took me roughly 2 months to find a fit (a single fit) that should work out for my style of playing games and the meta at the time, then I started training specifically for that fit. After another month or 2 I figured out a way to change it to make it more versatile and effective, so I changed the fit and the training plan once again (I'm flying a variation of that ship to the very day btw). And then I started to get better with the ship, both with regards to skills and with regards to skill as a pilot.
And all the time I knew that if I messed up in any way, if I missed crucial points of the game mechanics, if I screwed up my skill plan or messed up in any other way that could mean me losing weeks or months to reach my goal of getting competetive in pvp.
It was frustrating. It was glorious. It was intense. In some ways it was one of my best times in this game.
Now imagine the same thing with the possibility to buy SP. There isn't half as much on stake for you during your first few weeks or months. Even if you refrain from taking the easy way to just fix any botches you make with your credit card (or use it to instatrain into the skills you believe need) you know that there would be the possibility to do so and that other people are doing it. This diminishes your sense of achievement.
If this is about player retention: I believe that the key point for that is immersion and there are different kinds of that. One kind of immersion is immersion with the mechanics and structures of a game and Transneural Skill Packets will take away from that big time and in my opinion won't add to any other
If it is about opening another source of revenue for CCP (which is legitimate): there are ways to achieve that which won't alienate large parts of the player base. Corporation and alliance skins come to my mind straight away here.
But please, pretty please, don't do this. As mentioned numerous times above this system is open to exploits in many ways, but more importantly, it will change the feel of this game radically in a way that I'm not looking forward to.
|
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
8786
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:55:01 -
[898] - Quote
Throwing my -1 into this idea.
No to any form of Skillpoint Training. Not only were certain promises made during the Incarna fiasco but it simply a Pandora's Box of issues and potential gaming that will do little good for your average player and provide more benefit for deep-pocketed min/maxers.
If I might suggest something to the DEVs...
have you considered that part of the reason you are having some subscription issues (and thus money issues) is BECAUSE you are trying to broaden the appeal of EVE through, let's be honest here, GIMMICKY STUFF LIKE THIS?
EVE, still being what it is, will continue to turn off anyone who doesn't like this game type. Meanwhile, doing stuff like this alienates those of us who came to here BECAUSE of the lack of stuff you are trying to introduce.
It's like watching the small town you moved to build a mall and fairgrounds to attract more people... when you specifically moved there because it was a small town!!
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2060
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:55:19 -
[899] - Quote
Jack De'alek wrote: Yes, the bazaar exists, but in it's form it is still impossible to circumvent maximum possible sp. As I said, I would benefit immensely from the purchase of sp, but I'm disinclined to believe that any implementation of any feature that allowed characters to surpass these limits is a good idea.
Allowing characters to inject skills breaks a CEO or recruiter's ability to properly vet recruits and secure themselves against potential loss.
Quick battlefield assessments can no longer be counted on to find weak links in enemy fleets. To that end, those that prey on the weak will no longer be able to choose victims properly. Basically any informed decision that can be gleaned from character age through a quick show info or any other method short of an api check is no longer accurate.
The above are just a couple of tangible examples of the results of such a system. All i'm saying, is the consequences of allowing characters to exceed their maximum SP are gamebreaking, or at the very least game changing, and I'm fairly sure there's plenty more I haven't thought of. I really don't think it's a good idea.
Why does "maximum possible SP" matter to anyone, or anything, at all?
Why do you need to "vet" recruits by SP? The character bazaar exists. Furthermore, simply plug the following formula in:
SP / pilot age = 2700
and if it's above that, it's a red flag.
Using pilot age to perform battlefield assessments is a laughable concept. Again, the character bazaar exists. I have only been playing since 2010, yet I own a 2007 character.
The whole concept is incredibly brittle. You've probably lost quite a bit by relying on it, and don't even realize it.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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kraken11 jensen
The Gallant Collective Requiem Eternal
96
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:57:18 -
[900] - Quote
Go for it ccp, change how it have been forever. like the change to multiboxing, (broadcasting) witch was allowed for 10+ years, then it got changed because some people raged about the very few people who did it large scale. now people can feel how it is going to be robbed for a big part off the game as they like it, and play in. lol |
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Natya Mebelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
314
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:58:02 -
[901] - Quote
Colt Blackhawk wrote:Lots of hysteria here without any reasons behind it. Eve is already pay to win and some "pro" vets are now crying. Just show me the difference between: a) Buying plex with money, selling it on market and then buying a char for isk on the character market. b) Buying plex with money, seling it on market and then buying skill points for isk from another character.
Yep there is none :P Apart from the fact that the new idea is a lot more comfortable. But hey we have a "vets cry thread" now. Sometimes I think the old players are killing this game. Eve is already pay to win. All you need is isk or RL money to buy toons and multibox.
You are in the camp of "I don't care about my name". That's fine. There are others who ARE concerned about their name. Because this is Eve online.
One name. One reputation. And everyone in the cluster knows it.
But I would still vouch for a name change that changes ID as well for a fee, maybe even skillpoints lost. What I want even more like detailed in my last post, is having the ability to move skillpoints inside of your character, without loss. Just pay for the item, and do it.
Then we can also get rid of attributes and make the remaps we get as a timed measure to move skillpoints around at no cost. And if we want to move more? We pay. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic
1673
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:58:07 -
[902] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Zifrian wrote:Yeah yeah it's a game, but come on. Transferring skills? I always thought when you trained, you were READING a skill BOOK. I thought skills were injected. Then why is it a book and why does it take several months to train? I know it says "inject skill" but work with me here.
GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1641
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:59:31 -
[903] - Quote
I would still be able to train skills the same way I have since 2010. Not a single thing would be robbed or changed.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
5841
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:00:38 -
[904] - Quote
Colt Blackhawk wrote:Lots of hysteria here without any reasons behind it. Eve is already pay to win and some "pro" vets are now crying. Just show me the difference between: a) Buying plex with money, selling it on market and then buying a char for isk on the character market. b) Buying plex with money, seling it on market and then buying skill points for isk from another character.
Yep there is none :P Apart from the fact that the new idea is a lot more comfortable. But hey we have a "vets cry thread" now. Sometimes I think the old players are killing this game. Eve is already pay to win. All you need is isk or RL money to buy toons and multibox.
The difference is that the bought character has their SP already spent, while the buyer of unallocated SP can apply it where they like.
Day 0 Advice for New Players
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Korvin
Shadow Kingdom Best Alliance
592
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:00:56 -
[905] - Quote
Lol. Someone in CCP really hates his job.
Member of CSM 4&5 ... &8
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2715
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:01:16 -
[906] - Quote
Querns wrote: Again, as I have strenuously pointed out, the character bazaar does the exact same thing. Has for years. CCP gets theirs on every transfer.
No it doesn't. As per your quote here:
Querns wrote:
Also, you're significantly overestimating the number of times any one person would rush out to the character bazaar and snatch up a custom-made character just to stay ahead of the FOTM.
[/quote] SP Transfer for existing characters in arbitrarily large amounts and buying a character grown by someone else are two very different things.
And if they are no different, we have no need for this new system.
And we aren't talking about buying another character or a second account training, We are talking about the purchase of bulk SP applied instantaneously to a character of my choice.
It's a three party transaction:
$$$ to CCP<----->Instant, Bulk SP to the buyer<---->SP loss and Isk gain to the seller.
But here's the problem. This f*cking bit still happens: $$$ to CCP<----->Instant, Bulk SP to the buyer
And no matter how much you repeat it,instant bulk sp to an arbitrary character is not the same thing as purchasing a character off the bazaar.
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Colt Blackhawk
bad InTentiOnZ senseless intentions
313
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:01:37 -
[907] - Quote
Arec Bardwin wrote:Colt Blackhawk wrote:Lots of hysteria here without any reasons behind it. Eve is already pay to win and some "pro" vets are now crying. Just show me the difference between: a) Buying plex with money, selling it on market and then buying a char for isk on the character market. b) Buying plex with money, seling it on market and then buying skill points for isk from another character.
Yep there is none :P Apart from the fact that the new idea is a lot more comfortable. But hey we have a "vets cry thread" now. Sometimes I think the old players are killing this game. Eve is already pay to win. All you need is isk or RL money to buy toons and multibox. You realise that the pro vets with unlimited wallets would profit the most from this, don't you?
You should skill reading at least on lv 2^^ Older chars really do not profit from this. Read the thread.
[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
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kraken11 jensen
The Gallant Collective Requiem Eternal
96
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:01:49 -
[908] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I would still be able to train skills the same way I have since 2010. Not a single thing would be robbed or changed.
I talk about robbed as in the game people like it, ( some might not feel robbed and some might) I was relying to the ones that was going to feel robbed, and I might not have expressed that correctly in what I wrote (with my broken English) lol |
Colt Blackhawk
bad InTentiOnZ senseless intentions
313
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:03:13 -
[909] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Colt Blackhawk wrote:Lots of hysteria here without any reasons behind it. Eve is already pay to win and some "pro" vets are now crying. Just show me the difference between: a) Buying plex with money, selling it on market and then buying a char for isk on the character market. b) Buying plex with money, seling it on market and then buying skill points for isk from another character.
Yep there is none :P Apart from the fact that the new idea is a lot more comfortable. But hey we have a "vets cry thread" now. Sometimes I think the old players are killing this game. Eve is already pay to win. All you need is isk or RL money to buy toons and multibox. The difference is that the bought character has their SP already spent, while the buyer of unallocated SP can apply it where they like.
You realize all the threads out there "CCP I want my skillpoints back because you have nerfed my ship"? Sometimes I am thinking most eve players first max their whining skills.
[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
5841
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:04:21 -
[910] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:I am amused that the "solution" to the character bazaar being out-of-game is to destroy it entirely.
SP for money is a bad idea. The people most able to exploit this feature will be those setting up short-lived characters on new accounts.
The beauty of the character bazaar is that you are paying for the right skills, not just a number of SP. Bonus points for clean history and a good name.
Rather than SP for ISK, bring the character bazaar into the game. Allow ads on bulletin boards and CQ screens.
It's actually gaining SP from equal or more SP+money given up. It's essentially the bazaar without buying the name and history with the character.
It's nothing like the Bazaar. You are buying SP for Aurum to allocate where you want.
The bazaar is about buying complete entities, with skills trained where you want them (by someone who knew where to train, ideally), and there is no option to remove skills you don't like or swap SP around.
Day 0 Advice for New Players
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kraken11 jensen
The Gallant Collective Requiem Eternal
96
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:04:50 -
[911] - Quote
Colt Blackhawk wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Colt Blackhawk wrote:Lots of hysteria here without any reasons behind it. Eve is already pay to win and some "pro" vets are now crying. Just show me the difference between: a) Buying plex with money, selling it on market and then buying a char for isk on the character market. b) Buying plex with money, seling it on market and then buying skill points for isk from another character.
Yep there is none :P Apart from the fact that the new idea is a lot more comfortable. But hey we have a "vets cry thread" now. Sometimes I think the old players are killing this game. Eve is already pay to win. All you need is isk or RL money to buy toons and multibox. The difference is that the bought character has their SP already spent, while the buyer of unallocated SP can apply it where they like. You realize all the threads out there "CCP I want my skillpoints back because you have nerfed my ship"? Sometimes I am thinking most eve players first max their whining skills.
I somewhat understand people whining (esp newer players if they nerf the only ship they have ever fully trained into) |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2063
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:05:24 -
[912] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote: No it doesn't. As per your quote here:
[quote=Querns]
Also, you're significantly overestimating the number of times any one person would rush out to the character bazaar and snatch up a custom-made character just to stay ahead of the FOTM.
SP Transfer for existing characters in arbitrarily large amounts and buying a character grown by someone else are two very different things. And if they are no different, we have no need for this new system.
And we aren't talking about buying another character or a second account training, We are talking about the purchase of bulk SP applied instantaneously to a character of my choice. It's a three party transaction: $$$ to CCP<----->Instant, Bulk SP to the buyer<---->SP loss and Isk gain to the seller. But here's the problem. This f*cking bit still happens: $$$ to CCP<----->Instant, Bulk SP to the buyerAnd no matter how much you repeat it, instant bulk sp to an arbitrary character is not the same thing as purchasing a character off the bazaar. It's the same thing. You give money to another player, he gives you SP. CCP gets a cut in the form of a reduction of their liabilities.
The new system is only different in its granularity.
All this focus on applying it to a specific character makes no sense. Who cares what character the SP is on?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Vollhov
Senators of Eridan Red Alliance
313
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:05:24 -
[913] - Quote
Guys there monument to the Amarr.
Thanks you -í-íP Falcon "that helped to quit EVE"
Grand Empress Jamyl Sarum YC110
CCP can never come up with such a character as Jamyl Sarum.
"All these wayward children."
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Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Project.Mayhem.
1210
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:05:33 -
[914] - Quote
I like it, so I can get rid of useless skills that I trained back in the day and sell the skillpoints for iskies? Sounds good.
TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~
Youtube ~ Join Us
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
370
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:06:31 -
[915] - Quote
Yep. If lore-wise "skill points" are just data in the first place anyway, why not write the data directly, copy it a bajillion times and sell it to everyone.
Not that I think the lore should limit game mechanics, but anything to keep this from happening is fine with me.
Again, for the "how is this different from the character bazaar"-crowd:
1. Make 5 alts. Train them at Maximim SP/h, the skills you train don't matter. Just go for spaceship command skills, no need to respec. 2. Transfer it all to one Charakter until he hits 50M
That way you can effectively train more than 4 times as fast as you normally would and no, those SP are not being taken out of the game, but created just for the purpose. People are already creating alts just for the CB, and they will do that as well for that new Extraction bullshit, only that this time, turnaround times are much quicker. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2067
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:06:34 -
[916] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:I am amused that the "solution" to the character bazaar being out-of-game is to destroy it entirely.
SP for money is a bad idea. The people most able to exploit this feature will be those setting up short-lived characters on new accounts.
The beauty of the character bazaar is that you are paying for the right skills, not just a number of SP. Bonus points for clean history and a good name.
Rather than SP for ISK, bring the character bazaar into the game. Allow ads on bulletin boards and CQ screens.
It's actually gaining SP from equal or more SP+money given up. It's essentially the bazaar without buying the name and history with the character. It's nothing like the Bazaar. You are buying SP for Aurum to allocate where you want. The bazaar is about buying complete entities, with skills trained where you want them (by someone who knew where to train, ideally), and there is no option to remove skills you don't like or swap SP around. Did you read the devblog? The only part of the transaction that involves Aurum is purchasing the extractor in the first place. Players have to spend SP, then sell the filled extractor on the open market. This is not even remotely the same thing as "money for SP."
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Nomistrav
Aliastra Gallente Federation
324
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:07:46 -
[917] - Quote
So, essentially...
I can take boat-loads of ISK and buy Unallocated SP Packages and then input them into my character to suddenly have enormous wealths of SP.
Alternatively:
I can make an alt-army, train them up using ISK for PLEX and/or pay for them normally, buy the extractor bit and pull the unallocated SP from them and insert the Unallocated SP Packages into my main.
Completely invalidating the decision making and choices I put into things and ultimately invalidating test server SP gains as I'd just have SP to freely put where-ever I'd like.
Am I getting this right?
Third Place Winner
Pod and Planet Fiction Contest YC114
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1704
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:08:05 -
[918] - Quote
Querns wrote:Arec Bardwin wrote:]You realise that the pro vets with unlimited wallets would profit the most from this, don't you?
How? They have to spend ten times as much ISK for the same benefit as a new player would. You think they care? they have trillions of ISK and nothing they can spend it on. Say bb to PLEXing your account because it will sky-rocket, say bb to SP for ISK because you will never have the ISK to buy them.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
5842
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:08:58 -
[919] - Quote
Colt Blackhawk wrote:You realize all the threads out there "CCP I want my skillpoints back because you have nerfed my ship"? Sometimes I am thinking most eve players first max their whining skills.
There are also threads asking for ways to probe cloaks and demanding a limit of one character per player. Should CCP listen to those too?
Day 0 Advice for New Players
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2067
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:09:09 -
[920] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote: Again, for the "how is this different from the character bazaar crowd":
1. Make 5 alts. Train them at Maximim SP/h, the skills you train don't matter. Just go for spaceship command skills, no need to respec. 2. Transfer it all to one Charakter until he hits 50M
That way you can effectively train more than 4 times as fast as you normally would and no, those SP are not being taken out of the game, but created just for the purpose. People are already creating alts just for the CB, and they will do that as well for that new Extraction bullshit, only that this time, turnaround times are much quicker.
Make 5 alts. Train them at maximum SP on a skill plan that is in-demand. Sell them on the Character Bazaar. Use the proceeds to buy a character with the skills you want.
Exactly the same thing.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
167
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:09:14 -
[921] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Opner Dresden wrote:You want a particular skill on a particular character? Train it. Why should that be the only option? If someone else is willing to sell it, why can't I buy it like anything else? No one tells you if you want a ship to mine for it and build it yourself. Why is this different? Because SP has a value which will be diminished if you can liquidate unwanted skills and trade them with other players in the form of unallocated SP. A better question is why do you feel like you are such a special snowflake that you think you are entitled to buy skills which others have had to wait for for the last 12 years?
I remember Greyscale giving one of the reasons for not wanting to reimburse advanced industry when it was made to be useless was because he thought giving out unallocated SP diminishes the skill system. What has changed CCP?
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Devin Wallace
Kavashikari
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:10:45 -
[922] - Quote
Querns wrote:Reiisha wrote:Stupidly bad idea. This is going to get abused like no tomorrow.
Expect maxed 600m sp characters within days of the release of this feature.
At least make it so that 80 or 100m+ sp character don't gain any sp whatsoever via this feature.... I can understand the need to get up to 40-60m quickly, but above that.... I'll be honest, i like my vet status! :P What, exactly, is the abuse of having all 5s skills?
More importantly, like I've mentioned twice now and is readily apparent in the actual devblog, paying to skill a character even as high as 80 million ISK would cost THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. THOUSANDS.
I hope I don't meet the worm that creates the holes, -ámust be immortal.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1642
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:11:09 -
[923] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:It's nothing like the Bazaar. You are buying SP for Aurum to allocate where you want.
The bazaar is about buying complete entities, with skills trained where you want them (by someone who knew where to train, ideally), and there is no option to remove skills you don't like or swap SP around. No, unless I'm misunderstanding the blog you are not buying SP for aur. You are buying the capacity to remove SP for aur, and trading the removed SP for isk.
The person acquiring SP need have no aur or pay CCP any real money. I see no issue with this as it parallels PLEX in economic function and beyond that actually diminishes the character using the extractor.
The loss of efficiency at higher SP totals replicates the effect of increased cost surrounding skills you may not want when compared with character bazaar transfers. |
Konrad Kane
141
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:11:20 -
[924] - Quote
Has CCP considered what happens if Alliances decide to buy these to stock pile SP so they can future proof themselves from changes in the meta?
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2067
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:11:50 -
[925] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Querns wrote:Arec Bardwin wrote:]You realise that the pro vets with unlimited wallets would profit the most from this, don't you?
How? They have to spend ten times as much ISK for the same benefit as a new player would. You think they care? they have trillions of ISK and nothing they can spend it on. Say bb to PLEXing your account because it will sky-rocket, say bb to SP for ISK because you will never have the ISK to buy them. Why would I spend trillions of isk barely improving the same character? I can already fly all T1 subcaps and nearly every T2 subcap, and I only have 100m SP. I also have alts to fly all the capital ships I'm interested in flying.
If you're arguing that a rich person who also has the mental defect where he thinks that the total amount of SP he has matters can gorge himself on meaningless SP for ships he never flies and game the eveboard top SP leaderboard, then I say "more power to him." Means the profit of my bastard farm goes up. It literally has no consequence to anyone possessing even a modicum of rationality in their think pan.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Nomistrav
Aliastra Gallente Federation
324
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:12:21 -
[926] - Quote
Devin Wallace wrote:Querns wrote:Reiisha wrote:Stupidly bad idea. This is going to get abused like no tomorrow.
Expect maxed 600m sp characters within days of the release of this feature.
At least make it so that 80 or 100m+ sp character don't gain any sp whatsoever via this feature.... I can understand the need to get up to 40-60m quickly, but above that.... I'll be honest, i like my vet status! :P What, exactly, is the abuse of having all 5s skills? More importantly, like I've mentioned twice now and is readily apparent in the actual devblog, paying to skill a character even as high as 80 million ISK would cost THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. THOUSANDS.
For the record, a player bought several palettes worth of beer to be freely dispensed to everyone at Fanfest 2014. Acting as though there are not players who don't have the liquid income to abuse/exploit a system freely is sort of foolish.
Third Place Winner
Pod and Planet Fiction Contest YC114
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
370
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:12:41 -
[927] - Quote
Querns wrote:Make 5 alts. Train them at maximum SP on a skill plan that is in-demand. Sell them on the Character Bazaar. Use the proceeds to buy a character with the skills you want.
Exactly the same thing.
No, it's not. I want to create a Mothership alt. Training one would take what? a year - no idea.
Training 5 characters and transferring the SP would take 3 Months, and I don't even have to worry about market availability. |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Project.Mayhem.
1210
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:12:59 -
[928] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:I remember Greyscale giving one of the reasons for not wanting to reimburse advanced industry when it was made to be useless was because he thought giving out unallocated SP diminishes the skill system. What has changed CCP?
They aren't as dumb as back when they didn't change anything old ever.
TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~
Youtube ~ Join Us
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
5842
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:13:14 -
[929] - Quote
Querns wrote:Did you read the devblog? The only part of the transaction that involves Aurum is purchasing the extractor in the first place. Players have to spend SP, then sell the filled extractor on the open market. This is not even remotely the same thing as "money for SP."
I did not realise that the SP packages would sell for 0 ISK.
Day 0 Advice for New Players
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2067
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:13:27 -
[930] - Quote
Devin Wallace wrote:Querns wrote:Reiisha wrote:Stupidly bad idea. This is going to get abused like no tomorrow.
Expect maxed 600m sp characters within days of the release of this feature.
At least make it so that 80 or 100m+ sp character don't gain any sp whatsoever via this feature.... I can understand the need to get up to 40-60m quickly, but above that.... I'll be honest, i like my vet status! :P What, exactly, is the abuse of having all 5s skills? More importantly, like I've mentioned twice now and is readily apparent in the actual devblog, paying to skill a character even as high as 80 million ISK would cost THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. THOUSANDS. "A fool and his money are soon parted." - Elvis Presley in The Matrix
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Grenn Putubi
Aim High SWAG Co
63
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:13:54 -
[931] - Quote
There is only 1 way that I'd be willing to support this: Using a Skill Extractor consumes a Neural Remap.
This would seriously curtail the abuses that would otherwise be rampant with the proposed system. Young characters could make mistakes or change their minds by using up those bonus remaps to get rid of skills they don't want while older characters would have to make meaningful decisions about whether they want to make a skill packet to sell/transfer to an alt or remap for faster training in the coming year of their planned training queue.
This would also help stem the flood of Skill Packets on the market since each character could only make 1 per year (not counting bonus remaps). I'm unsure of how I'd feel about an option to extract more than 500,000SP at a time, but if you're only allowed to do it once per year I think being able to extract more than 500,000SP to create multiple skill packets at once would need to be considered. Most people earn about 23-24mil SP/year and I think maybe being able to extract up to 25mil SP/year in exchange for your yearly remap would be acceptable, but it would need to be done all at once with all the accompanying AUR fees paid in one lump sum (ie: if you want to extract 25mil SP then you're going to lose your yearly remap and be forced to consume 50 Skill Extractors at once to generate the 50 Skill Packets you'd be creating). Or maybe instead of consuming your yearly remap each Skill Extractor used would instead increase your Remap timer by an amount of time, say 15 days. There by limiting a character to creating 2 Skill Packets per month, or 24 per year.
I don't know. It's a tough issue and it definitely needs more consideration and a lot of community involvement. This idea of Skill Extractors and Skill Packets being sold in game on the market isn't an entirely bad idea. But the system as described certainly isn't a positive change for most players because it stinks of a pay to win style of gameplay where anyone with enough money to throw at the game can instantly compete with veterans that have been playing for a decade or more. I agree that the Character Bazaar could definitely use some love, but I don't believe this is the best way to address it. |
Mag's
the united
20468
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:14:28 -
[932] - Quote
WTF? I'm lost for words at just how low you are now going. Selling and buying SP in packets? I hope you see sense and stop this madness.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1704
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:15:03 -
[933] - Quote
Querns wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Querns wrote:Arec Bardwin wrote:]You realise that the pro vets with unlimited wallets would profit the most from this, don't you?
How? They have to spend ten times as much ISK for the same benefit as a new player would. You think they care? they have trillions of ISK and nothing they can spend it on. Say bb to PLEXing your account because it will sky-rocket, say bb to SP for ISK because you will never have the ISK to buy them. Why would I spend trillions of isk barely improving the same character? I can already fly all T1 subcaps and nearly every T2 subcap, and I only have 100m SP. I also have alts to fly all the capital ships I'm interested in flying. If you're arguing that a rich person who also has the mental defect where he thinks that the total amount of SP he has matters can gorge himself on meaningless SP for ships he never flies and game the eveboard top SP leaderboard, then I say "more power to him." Means the profit of my bastard farm goes up. It literally has no consequence to anyone possessing even a modicum of rationality in their think pan. Who cares about leader boards? He will buy it because there is nothing else he does not already have and he can perfect his character and win EVE.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2068
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Posted - 2015.10.15 22:15:12 -
[934] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Querns wrote:Make 5 alts. Train them at maximum SP on a skill plan that is in-demand. Sell them on the Character Bazaar. Use the proceeds to buy a character with the skills you want.
Exactly the same thing. No, it's not. I want to create a Mothership alt. Training one would take what? a year - no idea. Training 5 characters and transferring the SP would take 3 Months, and I don't even have to worry about market availability. Training the five characters and then using their sale proceeds to buy a supercarrier alt would be the exact same amount of time, plus or minus a small random factor for availability.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Konrad Kane
141
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:15:29 -
[935] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:[It's nothing like the Bazaar. You are buying SP for Aurum to allocate where you want.
Agreed.
Also the Bazaar isn't a perfect market - if I wanted to buy 50 archon pilots for my alliance members it would take me time and effort to do so.
With this system the alliance can buy any SP from the market and create perfect pilots within a very short period of time.
This dramatically reduces any lag in getting younger players to retrain in to the latest meta. |
General Vachot
The Vendunari End of Life
22
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:15:45 -
[936] - Quote
Sorry but just have to add to this thread. I am not a big fish or a well known PVP player but I have been in this game since 2006. That's 9 years of solid devotion and love of EVE. And for all those flamers who will say get a life etc I have a job, kids, family I play sport etc etc but Eve is my main hobby. And it is one that has kept on giving.
During my 9 years I have been a hi sec carebear, started a corp with mates, became a bad WH pvp pilot, started an alliance, FC'd, created and captained several AT teams.
I am not a bittervet - I love this game still and even some of the more controversial changes have not made me lose faith. I have confidence that CCP will work it all out in the end.
Please do not go down this path. Its pushing things more to a "pay to win". The best part of EVE is its blood sweat and tears (so many tears) not pay to win (fyi plex for isk is not play to win it just puts you in a shiner ship for me to kill). Every skill point error I made is like a battle scar. Each toons history is just that - history. Part of taking on a new toon is dealing with its baggage.
I say this with a level head. CCP if you respect at all the long term players who have made you money and promoted your game to anyone that will listen to them over a vast amount of time - don't do this.
Instead spend time new ships, new modules, new ways to fly our ships - fyi more than just orbit and keep at controls would be a boon - like a proper speed control drag bar so I can set my max speed when kiting instead of clicking along the speed bar guessing where that good speed is. Just an example.
Or frigate level command ships that only apply links when on grid and to ships you have targeted - soooo much benefit for small fast moving gangs and a good way to trial fun on grid links that require actual flying. |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
228
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:15:50 -
[937] - Quote
Devin Wallace wrote:Querns wrote:Reiisha wrote:Stupidly bad idea. This is going to get abused like no tomorrow.
Expect maxed 600m sp characters within days of the release of this feature.
At least make it so that 80 or 100m+ sp character don't gain any sp whatsoever via this feature.... I can understand the need to get up to 40-60m quickly, but above that.... I'll be honest, i like my vet status! :P What, exactly, is the abuse of having all 5s skills? More importantly, like I've mentioned twice now and is readily apparent in the actual devblog, paying to skill a character even as high as 80 million ISK would cost THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. THOUSANDS.
so would a titian and theres tons of that cancer around |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3515
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:16:37 -
[938] - Quote
Fredou wrote:No please no
I'm not going to read the previous 44 pages
why on earth would you want to do this? really
i have started playing eve nearly 10 -+ years ago
i have over 230m sp
you can gain about ~ 24m per year
why would you want to kill this?
You'll still have 230 million SP, and you can still gain millions every year via normal training.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2068
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:16:58 -
[939] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Querns wrote:Did you read the devblog? The only part of the transaction that involves Aurum is purchasing the extractor in the first place. Players have to spend SP, then sell the filled extractor on the open market. This is not even remotely the same thing as "money for SP." I did not realise that the SP packages would sell for 0 ISK. Why does the ISK cost of the filled extractor matter?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
228
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:17:12 -
[940] - Quote
Querns wrote:Neuntausend wrote:Querns wrote:Make 5 alts. Train them at maximum SP on a skill plan that is in-demand. Sell them on the Character Bazaar. Use the proceeds to buy a character with the skills you want.
Exactly the same thing. No, it's not. I want to create a Mothership alt. Training one would take what? a year - no idea. Training 5 characters and transferring the SP would take 3 Months, and I don't even have to worry about market availability. Training the five characters and then using their sale proceeds to buy a supercarrier alt would be the exact same amount of time, plus or minus a small random factor for availability.
without the limit of 50mil sp where the usefulness of sp packs lowers
|
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Arec Bardwin
1887
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:17:44 -
[941] - Quote
Konrad Kane wrote:Has CCP considered what happens if Alliances decide to buy these to stock pile SP so they can future proof themselves from changes in the meta?
no wonder Mittens and Elise thinks this is a great idea
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2068
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:17:50 -
[942] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Querns wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Querns wrote:Arec Bardwin wrote:]You realise that the pro vets with unlimited wallets would profit the most from this, don't you?
How? They have to spend ten times as much ISK for the same benefit as a new player would. You think they care? they have trillions of ISK and nothing they can spend it on. Say bb to PLEXing your account because it will sky-rocket, say bb to SP for ISK because you will never have the ISK to buy them. Why would I spend trillions of isk barely improving the same character? I can already fly all T1 subcaps and nearly every T2 subcap, and I only have 100m SP. I also have alts to fly all the capital ships I'm interested in flying. If you're arguing that a rich person who also has the mental defect where he thinks that the total amount of SP he has matters can gorge himself on meaningless SP for ships he never flies and game the eveboard top SP leaderboard, then I say "more power to him." Means the profit of my bastard farm goes up. It literally has no consequence to anyone possessing even a modicum of rationality in their think pan. Who cares about leader boards? He will buy it because there is nothing else he does not already have and he can perfect his character and win EVE. Today, I learned that hitting rank 5 in all skills causes the end credits to roll for Eve: Online, noted spaceship-themed spreadsheet.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
719
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:18:34 -
[943] - Quote
Don't forget people on the forums are actually a small percentage of the whole player base, so whether we approve or disapprove this idea, we do not speak for all of them. We are expressing our little, humble opinion. I don't think CSM can speak for us too. Sure they are our voice in CCP, but they are not our mind. The fact that I voted for someone doesn't mean that he/she always expresses my opinion.
If CCP has doubts about this after reading the thread, I suggest a poll to all players, maybe shown in the launcher or something. If not, they could "polish" this idea based on feedback and then release it.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1642
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:18:45 -
[944] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Because SP has a value which will be diminished if you can liquidate unwanted skills and trade them with other players in the form of unallocated SP. A better question is why do you feel like you are such a special snowflake that you think you are entitled to buy skills which others have had to wait for for the last 12 years?
I remember Greyscale giving one of the reasons for not wanting to reimburse advanced industry when it was made to be useless was because he thought giving out unallocated SP diminishes the skill system. What has changed CCP? The diminished value of SP is a non-issue in my mind. I've frequently disagreed with the idea that SP re-reimbursement needed to be so strict and we have the perfect means to address that here for every instance in which it was potentially justifiable.
And the whole special snowflake reasoning is BS. The character Bazaar already bypasses that here and now. The only difference is not being able to control the identity, which, ironically the solution you proposed is actually built into this system; it would cost me a 90% loss of any removed SP to actually place new skills on this character.
The loss of efficiency ensures that those skill removals still come at a price.
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IV0 SANADER
REMETINEC
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:19:01 -
[945] - Quote
EVE is ****** up anyway since Jump Fatigue, entosis link, than you boost a drake make it good platform again, after that you announcing missile disruptors on something that is hardly working good, people dont know anymore what to do, we older guys are barely logging, i had played with 10 acc before all capital pilots titans supers etc now i play with 1, last few months they are not active while there is no game content for that kind of game, before i had in my corp 105 active members now i have 35 active rest is offline with expired accounts, you destroying this game and will to play it, god know what kind of **** you will do with citadels and removing poses, and now this with skills i think you are insane while you have not much sunlight up there, or some ass in CCP trying to sabotage everything, only ting you need to do is get game as it was before jump fatigue, rewrite that shity system to multycore processors on servers that there is no TiDi let us jump and fight in capital fights use our supers and we will get you fights like B-R5RB or 6VDT-H and on that kind you can get players to come back and that will get you even more new players ingame |
Nomistrav
Aliastra Gallente Federation
325
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:19:52 -
[946] - Quote
Grenn Putubi wrote:There is only 1 way that I'd be willing to support this: Using a Skill Extractor consumes a Neural Remap.
This would seriously curtail the abuses that would otherwise be rampant with the proposed system. Young characters could make mistakes or change their minds by using up those bonus remaps to get rid of skills they don't want while older characters would have to make meaningful decisions about whether they want to make a skill packet to sell/transfer to an alt or remap for faster training in the coming year of their planned training queue.
This would also help stem the flood of Skill Packets on the market since each character could only make 1 per year (not counting bonus remaps). I'm unsure of how I'd feel about an option to extract more than 500,000SP at a time, but if you're only allowed to do it once per year I think being able to extract more than 500,000SP to create multiple skill packets at once would need to be considered. Most people earn about 23-24mil SP/year and I think maybe being able to extract up to 25mil SP/year in exchange for your yearly remap would be acceptable, but it would need to be done all at once with all the accompanying AUR fees paid in one lump sum (ie: if you want to extract 25mil SP then you're going to lose your yearly remap and be forced to consume 50 Skill Extractors at once to generate the 50 Skill Packets you'd be creating). Or maybe instead of consuming your yearly remap each Skill Extractor used would instead increase your Remap timer by an amount of time, say 15 days. There by limiting a character to creating 2 Skill Packets per month, or 24 per year.
I don't know. It's a tough issue and it definitely needs more consideration and a lot of community involvement. This idea of Skill Extractors and Skill Packets being sold in game on the market isn't an entirely bad idea. But the system as described certainly isn't a positive change for most players because it stinks of a pay to win style of gameplay where anyone with enough money to throw at the game can instantly compete with veterans that have been playing for a decade or more. I agree that the Character Bazaar could definitely use some love, but I don't believe this is the best way to address it.
Pro-logic right there: Limit the amount of times it can be done. +1
Third Place Winner
Pod and Planet Fiction Contest YC114
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Quesa
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
84
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:20:14 -
[947] - Quote
This is ******* stupid.
Why does Rise still work for CCP? |
Jeann Valjean
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
64
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:21:39 -
[948] - Quote
Before the "details" section the blog was interesting. Then I read the details and felt like it was Christmas morning and the big shiny box with my name on it only contained a smaller shoebox with a pair of used, dirty socks.
And no, I don't say that because this is any more "pay to win" than buying PLEX and using the bazaar as it is now.
This idea is so terribly misguided because the blog can't even make a logical connection between its premise of subpar character control when using the bazaar, and the need for trading SP packets in diminishing returns.
Alternate proposal: Why not leverage the Mastery system and let people remove/inject whole blocks of skills at once? That's what we're all looking for anyway- not "unallocated SP".
If I have an industry character with 51m SP, and I want to start using a JF, let me search the market for people selling "Jump Freighter Mastery IV". Maybe none are available or at a good price at the moment (same as the bazaar), and I have to choose to either overpay or wait? Still gives me freedom of choice, and doesn't penalize me for having 51 mil SP in industry and wanting to take my character in a different direction.
Maybe on another PVP character I want to get into BLOPS. I've got some racial BS skills at IV, which is included in the BLOPS Mastery III that I want to purchase. What should happen to my sense of entitlement for "wasting" those SP that I'm getting anyway from purchasing the mastery package? I should HTFU and acknowledge this is a far better system than having to buy another separate character.
What happens when I'm in Jita and someone offers to sell me Titan Mastery V because they're leaving the game, and are selling it for only 75 billion ISK? I'll spam accept on the trade window because i'm a dumb pubbie and didn't realize it was another scam. Now I'm out 75 billion and have to go find some ISK doublers again!
Seriously... there are good ways to pull this off. The existing proposal is not one of them.
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
370
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:22:21 -
[949] - Quote
Querns wrote:Make 5 alts. Train them at maximum SP on a skill plan that is in-demand. Sell them on the Character Bazaar. Use the proceeds to buy a character with the skills you want.
Exactly the same thing
No, it would not. Yes, after x time you will have the same amount of skill points over all characters involved. However, with the new system you have that one character you need much quicker and exactly like you need it.
On the character bazaar you can only buy an alt, if one is available. It will more than likely not be perfect and you will have to compete with other potential buyers.
With the extractors, you just make it yourself. With 5 training accounts in 1/4 the time, with 10 in 1/8, beyond that it will probably be even quicker than looking for a suitable alt on the market. |
Ursula Thrace
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
358
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:22:22 -
[950] - Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRxqY4wuTHw#t=54s
eve online original intro
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atif09
THE THIRTEEN SAMURAI The Old Guard.
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:23:08 -
[951] - Quote
Just saw the new dev blog
https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/exploring-the-character-bazaar-skill-trading/
Unless I'm mistaken this will allow players to drain unwanted characters of their sp and simply gorge their mains with all the sp until they get a supreme maxed character?
There was once a game called runescape whose developers let you buy sp for in game currency and rl cash want to know where that game is now? it's dead.
On the same topic what is with the abysmal returns on sp investment?
Lets say I have an unwanted alt with 50mil sp which I drain in to a packet and give to my main which has 100 mil sp does that mean I will get a return of 50k sp per 1 mil sp?
that would mean I would get 2.5 million sp for 80 million sp.....that is just awful
Please reconsider inputting this update into the game. but if you absolutely have to please make the sp trade more fair
how about making it a linear trade system where the more sp you use on a character the less the returns?
Thanks |
Provoked Comatose
Moved By Force
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:23:12 -
[952] - Quote
I approve!
Same thing as buying a character as is now. ^pay to win?
Keep same character, same name, same corp +1
Gives players that fubar'd with mining skills a way to remove that from list, make some extra isk on the side.
Been playing since 06, one of the best change proposals I've seen.... RIP Nano fleets =(
-PC |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2068
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:24:42 -
[953] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Querns wrote:Make 5 alts. Train them at maximum SP on a skill plan that is in-demand. Sell them on the Character Bazaar. Use the proceeds to buy a character with the skills you want.
Exactly the same thing No, it would not. Yes, after x time you will have the same amount of skill points over all characters involved. However, with the new system you have that one character you need much quicker and exactly like you need it. On the character bazaar you can only buy an alt, if one is available. It will more than likely not be perfect and you will have to compete with other potential buyers. With the extractors, you just make it yourself. With 5 training accounts in 1/4 the time, with 10 in 1/8, beyond that it will probably be even quicker than looking for a suitable alt on the market. So, your argument is that the new system is a little more efficient than the character bazaar? That a small increase in efficiency is the straw that broke the camel's back?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:25:39 -
[954] - Quote
from a Roll Playing perspective this change shatters my suspension of disbelief.
Time is the fire in which we burn.
You can never get back any time you wasted. This was the case in the EVE skill training mechanic.
Well it used to be.
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Edwin Wyatt
In Utter Darkness Amarrian Confederation
75
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:26:24 -
[955] - Quote
Finally I can get rid of Mining II on my PVP character.
I think they need to iron out some of the details but I like the idea.
Any vet who has seen change should welcome an opportunity to change up their skills if mechanics change, if their not, I would assume no change would make them happy.
+1 CCP your on the right track. |
Jessica Danikov
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
452
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:26:26 -
[956] - Quote
Quesa wrote:This is ******* stupid.
Why does Rise still work for CCP?
I'm gonna stop you right there. CCP Fozzie rightly complained about Fozziesov taking after his namesake, the stuff he writes about often represent the work of a whole team, not just himself.
There's no way this is just the result of CCP Rise. There will be buy-in from executive management, from marketing, from legal, this kind of thing doesn't just happen in vacuum. Team Size Matters are likely the developers and designers who are working on the details and implementing this feature. CCP Rise is the fella bringing us the words.
Don't be a **** trying to shoot the messenger. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1642
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:27:00 -
[957] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:No, it would not. Yes, after x time you will have the same amount of skill points over all characters involved. However, with the new system you have that one character you need much quicker and exactly like you need it.
On the character bazaar you can only buy an alt, if one is available. It will more than likely not be perfect and you will have to compete with other potential buyers.
With the extractors, you just make it yourself. With 5 training accounts in 1/4 the time, with 10 in 1/8, beyond that it will probably be even quicker than looking for a suitable alt on the market. With this system, the transfer isn't perfect, you will waste SP dependent on the amount needed total. Unless the end result is under 5m SP, the total training speed for one character being fueled by 4 will range from a 400% bonus down to a 40% bonus.
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Anastasia Nikolaeva
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:28:37 -
[958] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Yep. If lore-wise "skill points" are just data in the first place anyway, why not write the data directly, copy it a bajillion times and sell it to everyone.
Not that I think the lore should limit game mechanics, but anything to keep this from happening is fine with me.
Again, for the "how is this different from the character bazaar"-crowd:
1. Make 5 alts. Train them at Maximim SP/h, the skills you train don't matter. Just go for spaceship command skills, no need to respec. 2. Transfer it all to one Charakter until he hits 50M
That way you can effectively train more than 4 times as fast as you normally would and no, those SP are not being taken out of the game, but created just for the purpose. People are already creating alts just for the CB, and they will do that as well for that new Extraction bullshit, only that this time, turnaround times are much quicker.
At a cost of 3.5 million sp per 2 plex per character to the one harvesting the sp, I don't see the problem. These prices will not be able to compete with the character bazaar prices. Even now when they are pants on head ******** expensive.
I can buy a 10 mil focused pilot for 6-7 biliion right now. just got to wait 10 hours. it would be cheaper to buy a character than this new method. This method just breaks it up into affordable chunks for someone that doesn't want a whole vindicator pilot, just large blaster spec and minnie/ gallente bs IV |
Alexander Vasslo
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:29:40 -
[959] - Quote
No thank you, this made me throw up a little in my mouth. I would stop playing if this happened, for sure. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2069
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:29:47 -
[960] - Quote
Jessica Danikov wrote:Quesa wrote:This is ******* stupid.
Why does Rise still work for CCP? I'm gonna stop you right there. CCP Fozzie rightly complained about Fozziesov taking after his namesake, the stuff he writes about often represent the work of a whole team, not just himself. There's no way this is just the result of CCP Rise. There will be buy-in from executive management, from marketing, from legal, this kind of thing doesn't just happen in vacuum. Team Size Matters are likely the developers and designers who are working on the details and implementing this feature. CCP Rise is the fella bringing us the words. Don't be a **** trying to shoot the messenger. ESPECIALLY their financials people. Adding a new character transfer mechanic messes with their bottom line.
According to the devblog, there are 70 transfers a day. That's 140 plex a day, or 4200 a month. That's a pretty big "shadow" subscriber count! They will be reticent to alter that without buy-in from people who manage money at their company.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3515
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:29:59 -
[961] - Quote
Reiisha wrote:Stupidly bad idea. This is going to get abused like no tomorrow.
Expect maxed 600m sp characters within days of the release of this feature.
No.
First you'd need to get hundreds of millions of SP from other players.
Those characters would have to buy thousands of the extractors and packets. I'm gonna guess at say 8500...and if they cost 100 Aurum (a low price, IMO) we are talking well over 900 billion ISK.
Maybe some body could do this...but it would likely take some time. Certainly not days.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Cancel Align NOW
Maas Industries
616
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:30:11 -
[962] - Quote
The main reason I think this is a bad idea is perception.
1. It seems to be one step closer to direct pay2win. Yes we have the ability to purchase alts for isk, but finding a perfect designer alt is very rare. Finding a suitable alt with rough edges is the norm. This proposal removes the rough edges and makes the purchase of perfect designer alts more efficient.
2. Eve has long been sold as a harsh universe. Mistakes are painted as costly. Decisions have consequences. Training the wrong skills on an alt was a tough learning experience. This creates a perceived undo button.
The perception many of us have about Eve is that it is dying while CCP attempt to adjust some of the core elements of the game. A common perception is that CCP are breaking those core elements. The strength and speed of the feedback in this thread alone should warn CCP that they need to change the perception the playerbase has of tradeable skill points before that gets lumped into the negative perception that they are intent on breaking Eve.
It is a pity the rabble rabble generated by this devblog has drowned any positive perceptions created by the patch blog yesterday which I thought looked very positive.
|
Skyler Hawk
Boars on Parade The Tuskers Co.
49
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:30:25 -
[963] - Quote
Longpost below, TL,DR here: this is a terrible idea that will be of very limited utility to most genuinely new players and will primarily be used by established older players who want hyperspecialized tailor-made <50m SP alts. If you want to help new players, then do something that helps all new players, not just those with large amounts of ISK or RL cash to burn.
To expand on the first point, while the devblog goes on at length about newer players wanting to go from flying Stilettos to Armageddons, let's try to estimate how many of these intrepid newbies will actually be able to take advantage of this feature. At the moment, the going rate for highly focused alts on the bazaar seems to be around 800m ISK per million SP (estimate based on this thread). So, to replicate Kil2's example from the devblog and go from 15m SP to 33m, you'd need to spend at least around 14b ISK. This is almost certainly an underestimate because it neglects the cost of the skill extractor and the fact that you'd only get 400k SP per packet rather than the full 500k, but let's roll with it. As of 2012, the average <30m SP character had a wallet balance of less than 700m ISK. So let's be realistic here: the average new player is not going to be using this system or able to benefit from it in any way. A very tiny minority of hyper-dedicated new players or whales who throw large sums of RL money into their MMOs may use it, but it is absolutely not going to be something that is accessible or relevant to typical new players.
So, if the feature will be irrelevant to typical new players, who will use it? Well, as above, you're going to need quite a bit of money to get involved, which means it's far more likely to be well-established players who either have a lot of in-game wealth or are deeply committed to the game and therefore willing to spend lots of real-world cash on it. Obviously, the diminishing returns system makes it unattractive to use skillpoint boosts on a high-SP main character, but it seems perfectly suited to the creation of focused special purpose alts - want a dedicated bomber alt, T3 boosting character, dreadnought pilot, or triage carrier guy? No problem - just create a new character, buy ~10b of skillpoint packages and you're good to go! What this means is that you're going to see far more rapid swings in the meta towards whatever becomes FOTM.
There is (IMO) an overwhelmingly strong case for allowing new players to accumulate SP more quickly than they can at present. What you're proposing isn't it. Rather than making it easier for newbie-Kil2 to instantly go from 15 to 33m SP, you should find ways to improve the NPE and accelerate new players' skillpoint acquisition so that all new players benefit and get to experience a wider range of ship types and play styles during their first year or so. |
Mag's
the united
20473
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:30:29 -
[964] - Quote
I'm still reeling from this. Shocked and disappointed, doesn't quite fit the bill right now.
Then we have this:
Quote:That part really hits home for me because when I made that jump from 15mil SP to 33mil SP I went from being called GÇÿTurbo DinosaurGÇÖ to being called GÇÿKil2GÇÖ. Puke. I also found out, after the fact, that Kil2 had been involved in some kind of corp theft which meant I had to deal with negative reputation issues for years afterwards. Seriously? Dude that's the whole point and why we don't mind the system. It comes with consequences. Now you want to remove them? What a joke.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
372
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:31:47 -
[965] - Quote
Querns wrote:So, your argument is that the new system is a little more efficient than the character bazaar? That a small increase in efficiency is the straw that broke the camel's back?
Is this so hard to grasp?
If you are hungry - what's would you rather have? Seven pizzas next week, or one pizza right now. The new system would allow anyone with enough money in their bags exactly the characters the want in a very short time. Can you not see how that completely devalues the whole training and skillpoint progression thing? I am not a big fan of the CB, but I see how it helps keeping the E-Bay character trading at bay. But this new system is completely over the top.
Yes, it's more efficient, but you know what would be even more efficient? If everyone started out with every skill at 5. Efficiency is not always good in game mechanics. |
Killua Zoldyck
Iskursions
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:32:05 -
[966] - Quote
Unsure why the butthurt is real on this thread but the only diff between this and Character xfers is now you can put the SP where you want it. Love the idea keep it up CCP. |
Nuke Chicken
Infusion.
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:32:58 -
[967] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Reiisha wrote:Stupidly bad idea. This is going to get abused like no tomorrow.
Expect maxed 600m sp characters within days of the release of this feature. No. First you'd need to get hundreds of millions of SP from other players. Those characters would have to buy thousands of the extractors and packets. I'm gonna guess at say 8500...and if they cost 100 Aurum (a low price, IMO) we are talking well over 900 billion ISK. Maybe some body could do this...but it would likely take some time. Certainly not days.
You wouldnt need this to kill the game but oh wait, we can all dock supers soon so theres 2 accounts per top sp players they no longer need. 'Scuse me whilst i absorb the sp from my titan and super toons I no longer need into each other, now i have 2x 200mil sp toons. Also CCP now has 2 LESS subscriptions.
|
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2716
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:33:45 -
[968] - Quote
Querns wrote:
The new system is only different in its granularity.
Wrong. I can't buy instant bulk sp for this or any arbitrary character in the old system. I can in the new system.
World of difference.
Cash to ccp. Bulk, instant, and arbitrarily large SP for any character of my choice. If you claim this is the same as the character bazaar, you're lying through your teeth. |
Nuke Chicken
Infusion.
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:34:23 -
[969] - Quote
Goons screaming about how great this is because they will benefit most, Like they did from fozzie sov. And im not sure we should pander to an alliance that holds the theory of 'create as little content as possible for our enemies' |
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
158
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:34:39 -
[970] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Querns wrote:Make 5 alts. Train them at maximum SP on a skill plan that is in-demand. Sell them on the Character Bazaar. Use the proceeds to buy a character with the skills you want.
Exactly the same thing No, it would not. Yes, after x time you will have the same amount of skill points over all characters involved. However, with the new system you have that one character you need much quicker and exactly like you need it. On the character bazaar you can only buy an alt, if one is available. It will more than likely not be perfect and you will have to compete with other potential buyers. With the extractors, you just make it yourself. With 5 training accounts in 1/4 the time, with 10 in 1/8, beyond that it will probably be even quicker than looking for a suitable alt on the market.
You seem to be assuming no cost to the extractors. There will be market competition for those as well. Probably more competition than seen on the bazaar for characters. Sure you can train those alts and transfer the SP to yourself, using an extractor for every 500/400/200/50k SP the recipient character will get out of them. But it will also only be for SP over 5 million on each of those alts, so there will always be a base of 5 million SP sitting on those alts that can never be removed.
I dunno. Until we know the value in Aurum for the extractors, and then try and determine the price on the markets as supply and demand goes to work, we have no idea how cost effective this will be for anyone. Let alone what any of it might mean for actual gameplay in EVE. Probably very little. |
|
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
123
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:35:46 -
[971] - Quote
I had a long winded post written up but deleted in to put things more plainly....
Character Bazaar is already dangerously close to the accepted definition of P2W. However, the character you are purchasing comes with it's own faults. It may have a bad reputation, it is likely missing remaps, it's skills may not be "perfectly" allocated. But these are risks you take when following this path of P2W to instantly advance yourself into a higher SP character. You do not get to choose exactly where you put those SP, another player had to create a skill plan which he felt would meet the wants and desires of the greatest number of buyers.
By taking it out of their hands you now open up the trade of skill alts who will simply sit in stations by the hundreds if not thousands with +5s and perfect remaps pumping max SP/hr into skills for the specific purpose of melting it down for sales/transfer to main. While that doesn't seem any different than the current bazaar tell me this, what effort does it take to do 1 remap, plug in 2 +5 implants and set your skill queue to 500 days of spaceship command, gunnery and missiles?
Let's go with what some have suggested and you can only put skills into the same category it was taken from. Same as what I stated above, you now have X number of alts each with the proper remap pumping into those categories. NOTHING has changed, it takes no more effort than if you allowed trade between categories, just a few more alts.
Some of you seem to think that the DR of SP to higher SP pilots balances the whole thing. You guys play the same game right? you realize 50m SP is enough to make a perfectly focused pilot in nearly everything right? All this done at only a 4:5 ratio? That's still an effective 2160/hr from a perfect remap of 2700/hr with +5s. Some players within this game have so much isk they'd be willing to pay for it even at an effective 1080/hr conversion for characters such 80m (even titan pilots don't take nearly this much).
So with the DR racking up so quickly, they are right, very few would be willing to go much further with a single character. But why would they? Just going that far gets them a perfect character with all their remaps intact, no possibility of a bad reputation, and no way to trace who it could belong to. Why throw skill goo to make a perfect subcap pilot then throw DRed goo at the same character to let it fly caps when you can more efficiently just make a new character to do it? If you can't grasp this much then talking about this with you is not worth any of our time.
I digress, the reason players have accepted the Character Bazaar as an acceptable P2W is because of the risks, research, and compromises involved by both parties. The presented idea does away with all this and crosses the line, in my opinion, into the realm of full blown P2W money grabbing. This gets a massive NO from me.
If you want to allow for reallocation on the same character then we can talk. Say a single skill converted into unallocated skillpoints at the cost of a remap. Also, a character rename made available via plex/aurum with a tab under that character for "Previous aliases" would be acceptable by many. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2071
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:35:52 -
[972] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Querns wrote:So, your argument is that the new system is a little more efficient than the character bazaar? That a small increase in efficiency is the straw that broke the camel's back? Is this so hard to grasp? If you are hungry - what would you rather have? Seven pizzas next week, or one pizza right now. The new system would allow anyone with enough money in their bags to create - yes "create" exactly the characters they want in a very short time. Can you not see how that completely devalues the whole training and skillpoint progression thing? I am not a big fan of the CB, but I see how it helps keeping the E-Bay character trading at bay. But this new system is completely over the top. Yes, it's more efficient, but you know what would be even more efficient? If everyone started out with every skill at 5. Efficiency is not always good in game mechanics. I'm failing to see how any of this is bad. Characters in Eve are not special. They are commodities to be bought and sold.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Nuke Chicken
Infusion.
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:36:00 -
[973] - Quote
Has anyone stopped to calculate how much Plex will skyrocket in price to accommodate this? and how many accounts will go offline because of this direct change? |
Korvin
Shadow Kingdom Best Alliance
593
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:36:14 -
[974] - Quote
Jessica Danikov wrote:Quesa wrote:This is ******* stupid.
Why does Rise still work for CCP? I'm gonna stop you right there. CCP Fozzie rightly complained about Fozziesov taking after his namesake, the stuff he writes about often represent the work of a whole team, not just himself. There's no way this is just the result of CCP Rise. There will be buy-in from executive management, from marketing, from legal, this kind of thing doesn't just happen in vacuum. Team Size Matters are likely the developers and designers who are working on the details and implementing this feature. CCP Rise is the fella bringing us the words. Don't be a **** trying to shoot the messenger. Lol. So there is even more people in CCP who really hate their job?
Member of CSM 4&5 ... &8
|
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1592
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:36:26 -
[975] - Quote
This is ******* terrible, are you clowns for real? |
Wendrika Hydreiga
519
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:36:31 -
[976] - Quote
Boo... I was excited for this system because it would let me get a new lease in life on my character. Take away skills I had in Mining and put them in something more worthwhile like Caldari Battleships or Sentry Drones. Maybe swap skill points I have from this character to my alts.
But with everyone complaining, I don't see CCP putting this feature in the game now... And it makes me kinda sad. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2071
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:36:41 -
[977] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:
The new system is only different in its granularity.
Wrong. I can't buy instant bulk sp for this or any arbitrary character in the old system. I can in the new system. World of difference. Cash to ccp. Bulk, instant, and arbitrarily large SP for any character of my choice. If you claim this is the same as the character bazaar, you're lying through your teeth. No, I'm just able to see things without a blood haze over my vision.
It's the same thing. Characters in eve are not special. They are commodities to be bought and sold.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Zemiro Vanguard
Isogen 5
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:38:55 -
[978] - Quote
I have a number of misgivings with this, but my biggest worry concerns the new player experience. I feel such a system will put pressure on new players to purchase sp in order to 'catch up.' I know some such pressure already exist with the character bazaar. However, because of the cost wall to even afford a character being prohibitive for new players it isn't something that is expected. This system has the potential to lower the cost wall to a point where it may be expected for new players to buy in either through grinding isk or spending money. In both cases I don't see the pressured placed on new players leading to higher retention. I worry this may also lead to Eve gaining a reputation for a game with a big upfront cost, which place even more hurt on players even trying the game.
There are certainly problems with the npe, but I don't see this system helping. And it'll really depend on where the final cost wall ends up. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2071
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:39:05 -
[979] - Quote
Nuke Chicken wrote:Goons screaming about how great this is because they will benefit most, Like they did from fozzie sov. And im not sure we should pander to an alliance that holds the theory of 'create as little content as possible for our enemies' How do you get this? We haven't implied that the system benefits or hurts us in any particular way.
Also, most of the "screaming" is me; I have 11% of the total post count in this thread and 66% of the Goonswarm Federation post count.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:39:15 -
[980] - Quote
This is amazing. I'm so glad CCP is finally doing this. It won't break the game, it won't affect the character bazaar. What all the hate comes down to is you bittervets are just upset this option wasn't around when y'all started.
All of you saying it's pay to win it's no freaking different then the bazaar, you buy a character and their skillpoints. Unless that character is famous for one reason or another what you're buying are that characters skillpoints let's be honest. Most of eve is content with the status quo, this changes that and I welcome it fully.
CCP I urge you not to give into the these bittervets continue with this process make it great! |
|
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
372
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:39:26 -
[981] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote:You seem to be assuming no cost to the extractors. There will be market competition for those as well. Probably more competition than seen on the bazaar for characters. Sure you can train those alts and transfer the SP to yourself, using an extractor for every 500/400/200/50k SP the recipient character will get out of them. But it will also only be for SP over 5 million on each of those alts, so there will always be a base of 5 million SP sitting on those alts that can never be removed.
I dunno. Until we know the value in Aurum for the extractors, and then try and determine the price on the markets as supply and demand goes to work, we have no idea how cost effective this will be for anyone. Let alone what any of it might mean for actual gameplay in EVE. Probably very little.
Buy extractors for Aurum (Which is real money) Buy 10 new Accounts for PLEX (which is real money) Start training those and have your very own Super in a month.
The only place where the market comes into play is when you buy the skillbooks, and they are NPC seeded.
Yes, it will probably be more expensive than buying a character from the CB, but that doesn't help. Or would you say, that P2W is less terrible if it's just expensive enough? |
Elfaen Ethenwe
The Executives Executive Outcomes
42
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:39:28 -
[982] - Quote
Is this game really that bad for younger players? I mean we've dedicated 4 1/2 years of endless changes to them and all its really done is led the Imperium. to become an entitiy thats un-killable.
Why would we then rush to give them a proverbial **** tonne of SP? Lets just say you win guys and reset the server?
|
Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
514
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:40:07 -
[983] - Quote
I could parrot all the well written valid arguments against this idea, but I will not.
Instead I will simply state that I am opposed to this plan.
Here I used to have a sig of our old Camper in space. Now it is disregarded as being the wrong format.
Looking out the window I see one thing: Nothing wrong with the format of our Camper! Silly CCP......
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2071
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:41:36 -
[984] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Dirk MacGirk wrote:You seem to be assuming no cost to the extractors. There will be market competition for those as well. Probably more competition than seen on the bazaar for characters. Sure you can train those alts and transfer the SP to yourself, using an extractor for every 500/400/200/50k SP the recipient character will get out of them. But it will also only be for SP over 5 million on each of those alts, so there will always be a base of 5 million SP sitting on those alts that can never be removed.
I dunno. Until we know the value in Aurum for the extractors, and then try and determine the price on the markets as supply and demand goes to work, we have no idea how cost effective this will be for anyone. Let alone what any of it might mean for actual gameplay in EVE. Probably very little. Buy extractors for Aurum (Which is real money) Buy 10 new Accounts for PLEX (which is real money) Start training those and have your very own Super in a month. The only place where the market comes into play is when you buy the skillbooks, and they are NPC seeded. Yes, it will probably be more expensive than buying a character from the CB, but that doesn't help. Or would you say, that P2W is less terrible if it's just expensive enough? You have to bootstrap the bastards with 5m SP in order to start harvesting them. You've grossly underestimated the startup cost.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Cancel Align NOW
Maas Industries
617
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:42:19 -
[985] - Quote
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:Boo... I was excited for this system because it would let me get a new lease in life on my character. Take away skills I had in Mining and put them in something more worthwhile like Caldari Battleships or Sentry Drones. Maybe swap skill points I have from this character to my alts.
But with everyone complaining, I don't see CCP putting this feature in the game now... And it makes me kinda sad.
I agree. It has been poorly sold and done so at a delicate time in the survival of Eve Online. The way the masses are perceiving the concept will ensure it is a non starter. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1592
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:42:28 -
[986] - Quote
I've quickly skimmed through the thread, is there ANY CSM member who think this (or something similar) is a good idea? If not, and I would hope so, then how in the FCK did this happen. Which moron thought this would be a good idea? |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2718
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:43:07 -
[987] - Quote
Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:
The new system is only different in its granularity.
Wrong. I can't buy instant bulk sp for this or any arbitrary character in the old system. I can in the new system. World of difference. Cash to ccp. Bulk, instant, and arbitrarily large SP for any character of my choice. If you claim this is the same as the character bazaar, you're lying through your teeth. No, I'm just able to see things without a blood haze over my vision. It's the same thing. Characters in eve are not special. They are commodities to be bought and sold. If you wanted 500 commandship pilots for a fleet, you were out of luck. Market never has that many in stock.
But now? Buy all the sp you want and distribute it however you see fit, to whomever you see fit, instantly. It saddens me that some people can't see this system for what it is, or are too blinded by their own ambitions to care. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3515
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:44:07 -
[988] - Quote
Nuke Chicken wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Reiisha wrote:Stupidly bad idea. This is going to get abused like no tomorrow.
Expect maxed 600m sp characters within days of the release of this feature. No. First you'd need to get hundreds of millions of SP from other players. Those characters would have to buy thousands of the extractors and packets. I'm gonna guess at say 8500...and if they cost 100 Aurum (a low price, IMO) we are talking well over 900 billion ISK. Maybe some body could do this...but it would likely take some time. Certainly not days. You wouldnt need this to kill the game but oh wait, we can all dock supers soon so theres 2 accounts per top sp players they no longer need. 'Scuse me whilst i absorb the sp from my titan and super toons I no longer need into each other, now i have 2x 200mil sp toons. Also CCP now has 2 LESS subscriptions.
No. You forgot to factor in the decreasing returns. Or you are bad at math.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Edwin Wyatt
In Utter Darkness Amarrian Confederation
75
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:44:41 -
[989] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:The main reason I think this is a bad idea is perception.
1. It seems to be one step closer to direct pay2win.
How is this not in the game already? I can buy plexes with cash, purchase a maxed out player from a burnt out bitter vet and buy expensive ships with plexes.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1747
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:44:44 -
[990] - Quote
Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:
The new system is only different in its granularity.
Wrong. I can't buy instant bulk sp for this or any arbitrary character in the old system. I can in the new system. World of difference. Cash to ccp. Bulk, instant, and arbitrarily large SP for any character of my choice. If you claim this is the same as the character bazaar, you're lying through your teeth. No, I'm just able to see things without a blood haze over my vision. It's the same thing. Characters in eve are not special. They are commodities to be bought and sold.
Mine isn't. |
|
Hashtag Rare Pepe
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:45:23 -
[991] - Quote
2 types of people in this thread:
1/"Boohoo Boohoo! I won't be special anymurr even if I packed millions of sp while doing L4 in high sec." 2/"Nice I will be able to do pvp and be useful without having to wait more than 1 year before hopping into a Tengu."
Choose your side. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1642
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:45:56 -
[992] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Buy extractors for Aurum (Which is real money) Buy 10 new Accounts for PLEX (which is real money) Start training those and have your very own Super in a month.
The only place where the market comes into play is when you buy the skillbooks, and they are NPC seeded.
Yes, it will probably be more expensive than buying a character from the CB, but that doesn't help. Or would you say, that P2W is less terrible if it's just expensive enough? is a 20mill SP super character actually worthwhile(before accounting for loss due to the consuming character having diminishing returns)? |
Elfaen Ethenwe
The Executives Executive Outcomes
42
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:46:09 -
[993] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Nuke Chicken wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Reiisha wrote:Stupidly bad idea. This is going to get abused like no tomorrow.
Expect maxed 600m sp characters within days of the release of this feature. No. First you'd need to get hundreds of millions of SP from other players. Those characters would have to buy thousands of the extractors and packets. I'm gonna guess at say 8500...and if they cost 100 Aurum (a low price, IMO) we are talking well over 900 billion ISK. Maybe some body could do this...but it would likely take some time. Certainly not days. You wouldnt need this to kill the game but oh wait, we can all dock supers soon so theres 2 accounts per top sp players they no longer need. 'Scuse me whilst i absorb the sp from my titan and super toons I no longer need into each other, now i have 2x 200mil sp toons. Also CCP now has 2 LESS subscriptions. No. You forgot to factor in the decreasing returns. Or you are bad at math.
I can make it work dude, thats my alt and i have both the isk and the accounts. This patch would boost me for a very long time and i still think its a terrible idea. |
BirdStrike
State War Academy Caldari State
62
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:46:51 -
[994] - Quote
Next they'll decide it wasn't working as intended so they'll work 'just like plex'. 16.99 for a month of SP...
And then they'll decide supercaps and titans are a bit like the character bazaar, all this messing about with third parties and auctions on obscure parts of the forum johnnywarcraft never visits. And that's a problem because now he's used this new system and specced up his nyx/erebus pilot he doesn't know where to buy them from, and well, saving the bother of buying 80 plex and selling them you'll be abe to get one direct from aurum store. Nice and convenient, insured of course. We can't have johnnys mommy ringing up mastercard and requesting a chargeback because pandemic legion wtfbbq'd his 1000 usd christmas present and he didn't know titans could die amd he only wanted to go mining in it and hes being bullied by masty men and wants his titan back...he dudn't even get to shoot them because nobody told him that his 100 usd thons modified mining kaser couldn't do that.
And well, we can't have bad pr, so lets rent johnny a nice sov system for 100 usd a month complete with moon poo and asteroids where he can be left to mine in his titan, guarded of course by the 29.99 a month concorde upgrade that can wtfbbq the entire of goonfleet should they decide to stop by,
Tinfoil hat maybe, but look what a certain company did to battlefield and tell me we aren't on the road to farmeville 4.99 chicken packs.
|
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
373
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:47:03 -
[995] - Quote
Querns wrote: You have to bootstrap the bastards with 5m SP in order to start harvesting them. You've grossly underestimated the startup cost.
So, pay to win is okay if it's *grossly* expensive then?
The new accounts will come with a month of trial time and a plex through the Power of Two system. That's 2 Months for free, which is about 4M SP per character. So - no, I don't think I have grossly overestimated the startup cost not that it matters anyway. |
Cancel Align NOW
Maas Industries
617
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:47:41 -
[996] - Quote
Edwin Wyatt wrote:Cancel Align NOW wrote:The main reason I think this is a bad idea is perception.
1. It seems to be one step closer to direct pay2win.
How is this not in the game already? I can buy plexes with cash, purchase a maxed out character from a burnt out bitter vet and buy expensive ships with plexes. Sounds like p2w to me!
Please don't misread and then quote me out of context.
|
darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:47:41 -
[997] - Quote
after reading the devblog... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRKz82v5JQY
just kidding... but to be honest: i really dislike the idea. please do not implement that ccp. yes, the character bazaar is already some kind of a pay to win thing (wich is the reason why i don't like it). but this stuff makes it even worse. neuntausend explained it clear enough to understand: the fact that you can use several characters to skill for one specific character makes it not really comparable to the character bazaar as we have it now. you can skill the skills YOU want and don't have to wait for a good offer. and in some cases this would also be probably even quicker than using the character bazaar.
and btw: "the character bazaar is p2w anyways, i like this new idea" is something only someone who is actually paying to win would say. but p2w concepts are not healthy for a game in general.
as some people already said: it would be ok if there would be character services like renaming / changing appearance that also cost plex. it would fix the "problems" of the character bazaar and there would probably be more money for ccp.
as an animal rights activist, i have to say: ccp, please don't force your cow into giving more milk like this. it doesn't like it and will die sooner or later. instead, listen to your cow. it's telling stories. |
Shalmon Aliatus
Bluestar Enterprises The Craftsmen
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:48:01 -
[998] - Quote
Ahahahahahahahahaahahaaaa
Ha...
Ha...
Ha...
No.
This will lead to:
a) Pay to win. Period.
b) Old and rich characters building farm chars (full neural remap to one attribute, optimized implants and skilling just the skills that need them to a) push their chars and b) sell skillpoints
c) new players can't afford the skill packets until they buy plex, because skill packets will be expensive (1 month of skilltime = 1 plex + the aurum for creating the package)
d) big coalitions can push their members, so they not only have a advantage in numbers, but also in skillpoints (join goon and become a carrier pilot in one day ) |
Striker IV
He say you Brade Runner
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:48:33 -
[999] - Quote
ugh, we know from experience, that if something can be twisted into an exploit, or playerbase finds it and does it. Im all for creative uses, but this sounds like a bad idea all around. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3515
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:48:59 -
[1000] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:
The new system is only different in its granularity.
Wrong. I can't buy instant bulk sp for this or any arbitrary character in the old system. I can in the new system. World of difference. Cash to ccp. Bulk, instant, and arbitrarily large SP for any character of my choice. If you claim this is the same as the character bazaar, you're lying through your teeth.
No, I'm guessing that the limit will be around 50 million SP maybe 60 or 70, but that is about it. Because it will get quite expensive once you go over 80 million SP.
Further, it also depends on how much SP are on the market. Will everyone one with cap alts who can fly more than one racial cap ship suddenly drain all those SP and toss them on the market for ISK? What if that drops the price really low? People are going to sell at a loss? Really?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2072
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:49:02 -
[1001] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:
The new system is only different in its granularity.
Wrong. I can't buy instant bulk sp for this or any arbitrary character in the old system. I can in the new system. World of difference. Cash to ccp. Bulk, instant, and arbitrarily large SP for any character of my choice. If you claim this is the same as the character bazaar, you're lying through your teeth. No, I'm just able to see things without a blood haze over my vision. It's the same thing. Characters in eve are not special. They are commodities to be bought and sold. If you wanted 500 commandship pilots for a fleet, you were out of luck. Market never has that many in stock. But now? Buy all the sp you want and distribute it however you see fit, to whomever you see fit, instantly. It saddens me that some people can't see this system for what it is, or are too blinded by their own ambitions to care. Considering that the market also does not have an infinite supply of skill boosters, I fail to see the concern.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2072
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:49:50 -
[1002] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:
The new system is only different in its granularity.
Wrong. I can't buy instant bulk sp for this or any arbitrary character in the old system. I can in the new system. World of difference. Cash to ccp. Bulk, instant, and arbitrarily large SP for any character of my choice. If you claim this is the same as the character bazaar, you're lying through your teeth. No, I'm just able to see things without a blood haze over my vision. It's the same thing. Characters in eve are not special. They are commodities to be bought and sold. Mine isn't. It's your choice to live in deliberate ignorance of reality. I fail to see how the reality shifting a bit affects this.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Draugo Rana
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
81
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:50:04 -
[1003] - Quote
Hashtag Rare Pepe wrote:2 types of people in this thread:
1/"Boohoo Boohoo! I won't be special anymurr even if I packed millions of sp while doing L4 in high sec." 2/"Nice I will be able to do pvp and be useful without having to wait more than 1 year before hopping into a Tengu."
Choose your side.
3. People who write knee jerk mocking 2 liner comments without actually reading, let alone trying to understand the presented and often well written arguments...
Masuat'aa Matari is recruiting Minmatar freedom fighters
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3515
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:50:09 -
[1004] - Quote
Shalmon Aliatus wrote:Ahahahahahahahahaahahaaaa Ha... Ha... Ha... No. This will lead to: a) Pay to win. Period. b) Old and rich characters building farm chars (full neural remap to one attribute, optimized implants and skilling just the skills that need them to a) push their chars and b) sell skillpoints c) new players can't afford the skill packets until they buy plex, because skill packets will be expensive (1 month of skilltime = 1 plex + the aurum for creating the package) d) big coalitions can push their members, so they not only have a advantage in numbers, but also in skillpoints (join goon and become a carrier pilot in one day )
Right like buying and selling PLEX for ISK was not pay to win.
Like buying a character with said is is not pay to win.
You are a bit late to the game on the pay to win thing.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
78
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:50:13 -
[1005] - Quote
Winter of waaaaaaaaaaaggggggeeeeeew incoming ! |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2072
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:50:41 -
[1006] - Quote
BirdStrike wrote:Next they'll decide it wasn't working as intended so they'll work 'just like plex'. 16.99 for a month of SP...
And then they'll decide supercaps and titans are a bit like the character bazaar, all this messing about with third parties and auctions on obscure parts of the forum johnnywarcraft never visits. And that's a problem because now he's used this new system and specced up his nyx/erebus pilot he doesn't know where to buy them from, and well, saving the bother of buying 80 plex and selling them you'll be abe to get one direct from aurum store. Nice and convenient, insured of course. We can't have johnnys mommy ringing up mastercard and requesting a chargeback because pandemic legion wtfbbq'd his 1000 usd christmas present and he didn't know titans could die amd he only wanted to go mining in it and hes being bullied by masty men and wants his titan back...he dudn't even get to shoot them because nobody told him that his 100 usd thons modified mining kaser couldn't do that.
And well, we can't have bad pr, so lets rent johnny a nice sov system for 100 usd a month complete with moon poo and asteroids where he can be left to mine in his titan, guarded of course by the 29.99 a month concorde upgrade that can wtfbbq the entire of goonfleet should they decide to stop by,
Tinfoil hat maybe, but look what a certain company did to battlefield and tell me we aren't on the road to farmeville 4.99 chicken packs.
Gosh, this slope sure looks slippery.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Anise Tig'res
Duchy Ministry of Slave Affairs
37
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:51:26 -
[1007] - Quote
darkchild's corpse wrote:after reading the devblog... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRKz82v5JQY just kidding... but to be honest: i really dislike the idea. please do not implement that ccp. yes, the character bazaar is already some kind of a pay to win thing (wich is the reason why i don't like it). but this stuff makes it even worse. neuntausend explained it clear enough to understand: the fact that you can use several characters to skill for one specific character makes it not really comparable to the character bazaar as we have it now. you can skill the skills YOU want and don't have to wait for a good offer. and in some cases this would also be probably even quicker than using the character bazaar. and btw: "the character bazaar is p2w anyways, i like this new idea" is something only someone who is actually paying to win would say. but p2w concepts are not healthy for a game in general. as some people already said: it would be ok if there would be character services like renaming / changing appearance that also cost plex. it would fix the "problems" of the character bazaar and there would probably be more money for ccp. as an animal rights activist, i have to say: ccp, please don't force your cow into giving more milk like this. it doesn't like it and will die sooner or later. instead, listen to your cow. it's telling stories.
Your solution is literally exactly the same but with 'IT'S JUST LIKE BEFORE BUT A TINY BIT DIFFERENT! :D' plastered over the front of it.
Get over your emotional reaction to this. Just because it wasn't around when you started doesn't make it P2W. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
130
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:51:38 -
[1008] - Quote
I'm not convinced it will actually do anything as there is that fundamental requirement of spare SP to start the process.
I get the feeling this is going to find a blocker in that the main source of spare SP (veteran players) are either: A) Going to be very e-peen about their SP totals, and unwilling to give it up. B) Continually training alts for tasks instead of just junk training on their main, so they're not going to actually be able to skim off unused SP.
That being said, my only real complaint about the system itself is that it's founded on the assumption that SP is a necessary evil for the game. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2072
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:51:39 -
[1009] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Querns wrote: You have to bootstrap the bastards with 5m SP in order to start harvesting them. You've grossly underestimated the startup cost.
So, pay to win is okay if it's *grossly* expensive then? The new accounts will come with a month of trial time and a plex through the Power of Two system. That's 2 Months for free, which is about 4M SP per character. So - no, I don't think I have grossly overestimated the startup cost not that it matters anyway. You know what else was expensive? Buying characters on the Character Bazaar. Mostly rich folks did it.
Strange, then, that no one complains about this.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3215
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:52:04 -
[1010] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:
The new system is only different in its granularity.
Wrong. I can't buy instant bulk sp for this or any arbitrary character in the old system. I can in the new system. World of difference. Cash to ccp. Bulk, instant, and arbitrarily large SP for any character of my choice. If you claim this is the same as the character bazaar, you're lying through your teeth. No, I'm just able to see things without a blood haze over my vision. It's the same thing. Characters in eve are not special. They are commodities to be bought and sold. Mine isn't. Nor is mine, I started in summer of 2011 I, just like many others, trained into mining and industry. They are part of what defines my character as do the skill road maps of all characters.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
|
|
Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:52:15 -
[1011] - Quote
Nuke Chicken wrote:Has anyone stopped to calculate how much Plex will skyrocket in price to accommodate this? and how many accounts will go offline because of this direct change?
I believe SKINS and multi character training were meant to do this but failed and the price of plex only doubled but still made free to play possible for most vets.
This is the next logical step in making free to play access via plex with in game isk more difficult.
The result is a smaller player base but more paying customers in theory but heard mentality dictates that smaller numbers means more cancelled subscriptions that were actually paying customers in addition to those plexing with isk.
But if you remove the last quantity not for sale on a single character (training time)...
Then you have lost any anchor and are adrift in the world of micro transactions and pay 2 win schemes which new players like myself have no interest in when we signed up for a subscription to a game on a monthly+ basis. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1642
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:52:28 -
[1012] - Quote
Elfaen Ethenwe wrote:I can make it work dude, thats my alt and i have both the isk and the accounts. This patch would boost me for a very long time and i still think its a terrible idea. Consuming an entire 200mill toon and funneling it into another 200mill toon results in a 219.5mill toon and a 5m toon. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1592
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:53:49 -
[1013] - Quote
So which DEV is going to leak the new "No fear" internal memo this time? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1642
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:54:48 -
[1014] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:I'm not convinced it will actually do anything as there is that fundamental requirement of spare SP to start the process.
I get the feeling this is going to find a blocker in that the main source of spare SP (veteran players) are either: A) Going to be very e-peen about their SP totals, and unwilling to give it up. B) Continually training alts for tasks instead of just junk training on their main, so they're not going to actually be able to skim off unused SP.
That being said, my only real complaint about the system itself is that it's founded on the assumption that SP is a necessary evil for the game. The character training currently intentionally fueling the character bazaar will likely end up being in part transitioned to this mechanic. I won't speculate on how well used it will be, but I don't see it going unused.
|
Adaris
63
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:54:48 -
[1015] - Quote
CCP I wholeheartedly disagree with this proposed feature. It actually concerns me greatly as a paying customer.
I'd rather see you monetise some of the services people have actually asked for as an aid to character trading:
- Name change (keeping originals in an alias tab)
- Convert a fixed number of skillpoints into unallocated skillpoints per fixed period. A few million sp per year etc.
Both for plex/aurum.
|
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
373
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:55:29 -
[1016] - Quote
Querns wrote:So, pay to win is okay if it's *grossly* expensive then?
The new accounts will come with a month of trial time and a plex through the Power of Two system. That's 2 Months for free, which is about 4M SP per character. So - no, I don't think I have grossly overestimated the startup cost not that it matters anyway. You know what else was expensive? Buying characters on the Character Bazaar. Mostly rich folks did it.
Strange, then, that no one complains about this.[/quote]
Oh, As I said earlier, I don't like the CB either. But the CB being bad, doesn't mean they should make it even worse.
"Oh, caught a cold? Then you surely don't mind a bit of cancer either"
Yes, I do mind. |
Si Karde
Arcane Odyssey Omnibus Mori
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:57:53 -
[1017] - Quote
Well my 1st thought was is it April already? Since i see I'm not alone in my reaction I'll just say stupid idea....absolutely stupid idea... |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3515
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:58:47 -
[1018] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Elfaen Ethenwe wrote:I can make it work dude, thats my alt and i have both the isk and the accounts. This patch would boost me for a very long time and i still think its a terrible idea. Consuming an entire 200mill toon and funneling it into another 200mill toon results in a 219.5mill toon and a 5m toon.
This just wont work. At all. Once you cross that 80 million threshold you'd only get 50,000 SP from a 500,000 SP packet.
Seriously, there is an increase costs.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2072
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:59:07 -
[1019] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Querns wrote: You know what else was expensive? Buying characters on the Character Bazaar. Mostly rich folks did it.
Strange, then, that no one complains about this.
Oh, As I said earlier, I don't like the CB either. But the CB being bad, doesn't mean they should make it even worse. "Oh, caught a cold? Then you surely don't mind a bit of cancer either" Yes, I do mind. The character bazaar is fine, and provides basically the only opportunity for new players to catch up to old players.
It was critical for my gameplay.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3515
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:00:28 -
[1020] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Querns wrote: You know what else was expensive? Buying characters on the Character Bazaar. Mostly rich folks did it.
Strange, then, that no one complains about this.
Oh, As I said earlier, I don't like the CB either. But the CB being bad, doesn't mean they should make it even worse. "Oh, caught a cold? Then you surely don't mind a bit of cancer either" Yes, I do mind.
Prohibition leads to black markets. Like people selling characters on e-bay. The character bazaar undermines that market considerably.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
|
darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:01:07 -
[1021] - Quote
Anise Tig'res wrote:darkchild's corpse wrote:after reading the devblog... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRKz82v5JQY just kidding... but to be honest: i really dislike the idea. please do not implement that ccp. yes, the character bazaar is already some kind of a pay to win thing (wich is the reason why i don't like it). but this stuff makes it even worse. neuntausend explained it clear enough to understand: the fact that you can use several characters to skill for one specific character makes it not really comparable to the character bazaar as we have it now. you can skill the skills YOU want and don't have to wait for a good offer. and in some cases this would also be probably even quicker than using the character bazaar. and btw: "the character bazaar is p2w anyways, i like this new idea" is something only someone who is actually paying to win would say. but p2w concepts are not healthy for a game in general. as some people already said: it would be ok if there would be character services like renaming / changing appearance that also cost plex. it would fix the "problems" of the character bazaar and there would probably be more money for ccp. as an animal rights activist, i have to say: ccp, please don't force your cow into giving more milk like this. it doesn't like it and will die sooner or later. instead, listen to your cow. it's telling stories. Your solution is literally exactly the same but with 'IT'S JUST LIKE BEFORE BUT A TINY BIT DIFFERENT! :D' plastered over the front of it. Get over your emotional reaction to this. Just because it wasn't around when you started doesn't make it P2W.
1. it's not "my" solution. as i already said, other ppl already said this before. 2. it's not just "a little difference". this new idea would offer completely new p2w possibilities wich was also explained enough in this thread. 3. i'm not emotional, i'm dead. i don't have emotions at all. i'm just saying what i think about all this. |
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
689
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:01:16 -
[1022] - Quote
How does my being able to buy skill points for myself negatively impact you? |
Marsha Mallow
2623
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:01:29 -
[1023] - Quote
Mag's wrote:I'm still reeling from this. Shocked and disappointed, doesn't quite fit the bill right now. You haven't killed anything on that alt since 2011. I like you, because you seem a nice person. But so are the rest. So don't take the rest personally.
I noted with interest Manny's response to the Aegissov whambulance criers. I won't quote, but it boiled down to: 'you must have SKIN in the game to participate in sov warfare'
ORLY
Where's your SKIN?
How many of you even play anymore?
Don't do the Phoebe-killed-us routine, you were rotten carcasses of fail well before that.
Explain why your neckbeard vanity should be preserved at the expense of everyone else. Make it good.
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1642
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:02:34 -
[1024] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Elfaen Ethenwe wrote:I can make it work dude, thats my alt and i have both the isk and the accounts. This patch would boost me for a very long time and i still think its a terrible idea. Consuming an entire 200mill toon and funneling it into another 200mill toon results in a 219.5mill toon and a 5m toon. This just wont work. At all. Once you cross that 80 million threshold you'd only get 50,000 SP from a 500,000 SP packet. Seriously, there is an increase costs. It will work fine, assuming the desire to spend all it takes to to convert 195m SP @ 500k per transfer (390 transfers [x whatever the AUR price ends up being for the extractor]) and you're willing to accept a 10% ROI on the SP itself. |
Chrome Veinss
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:02:39 -
[1025] - Quote
I like this idea. Right now if you're rich (spacerich, real life rich, whatever) you can pay and buy a character that can fly every ship in the game or a specialized alt for a specific purpose. Thats the most pay to win you can get in a game where a t1 destroyer can easily destroy a purple fit battleship piloted by someone who has no idea what theyre doing.
While these rich players buy and sell characters for billions every day without a care in the world whether theyre named yolo mcswag or gdklsghdfkgj and terrorize people with wheir falcon and link alts and multibox incursion fleets, the masses of eve with a single account and emotional connections to their character and background that make pew pew sounds when they pvp have no access whatsoever to even a handful of skillpoints to not have to wait another week for a skill to finish training.
This wont end the (in my opinion, quite minor) "pay to win" aspect of the game, which will be there as long as there is a character bazaar and as long as real life is pay to win. But being able to trade unallocated SP allows the normal player with a single account and character to get a bit ahead by investing some isk in SP while also refunding the rich vets with too many alts they dont use with too much SP they dont even need. If anything it makes the game less pay to win in the sense that instead of paying many billions for a character that can do everything you'll be able to buy a packet to get a skill faster. You'll be paying less and winning less. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2072
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:02:49 -
[1026] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:How does my being able to buy skill points for myself negatively impact you? It lets you approach their meaningless number more closely with your meaningless number.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1748
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:04:32 -
[1027] - Quote
Querns wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:
The new system is only different in its granularity.
Wrong. I can't buy instant bulk sp for this or any arbitrary character in the old system. I can in the new system. World of difference. Cash to ccp. Bulk, instant, and arbitrarily large SP for any character of my choice. If you claim this is the same as the character bazaar, you're lying through your teeth. No, I'm just able to see things without a blood haze over my vision. It's the same thing. Characters in eve are not special. They are commodities to be bought and sold. Mine isn't. It's your choice to live in deliberate ignorance of reality. I fail to see how the reality shifting a bit affects this.
Ignorance of reality? The reality is I will never sell my character to anyone else. Therefore it is not a commodity and never will be which makes it as unique as a character can be. It is 'special' in so far as it is mine and only mine. Whatever anyone else does with their characters is entirely up to them. |
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
158
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:06:12 -
[1028] - Quote
Nuke Chicken wrote:Has anyone stopped to calculate how much Plex will skyrocket in price to accommodate this? and how many accounts will go offline because of this direct change?
No, but can you tell us how many? Or even produce the scenario where that might happen? |
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
354
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:06:24 -
[1029] - Quote
This is fooking Bullshit CCP
source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4583354#post4583354
Regards, a Freelancer
PS: selling un-allocated skill points like this, cheapens my whole capsuleer skill training experience since dec 2008.
The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
|
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3217
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:06:31 -
[1030] - Quote
Querns wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:How does my being able to buy skill points for myself negatively impact you? It lets you approach their meaningless number more closely with your meaningless number. Not even close, but then again I doubt someone who bought there first character would ever understand.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:06:41 -
[1031] - Quote
Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:
The new system is only different in its granularity.
Wrong. I can't buy instant bulk sp for this or any arbitrary character in the old system. I can in the new system. World of difference. Cash to ccp. Bulk, instant, and arbitrarily large SP for any character of my choice. If you claim this is the same as the character bazaar, you're lying through your teeth. No, I'm just able to see things without a blood haze over my vision. It's the same thing. Characters in eve are not special. They are commodities to be bought and sold.
Characters are special. Characters (players behind them) and corporations they run made this game what it is. They have made the game special.
Entity, Chribba, Grendell, Lord Zap, Tank CEO, SirMolle, Mittens, voogru, Istvaan Shogaatsu, Arachvoid, Shamiz Orzoz etc etc. I could name hundreds of characters heavily involved in making EVE what it is. Are they just commodities?
I find your approach quite shallow. That is why I can understand why you pushing so hard for something what will probably personally gain you, without caring about the whole picture. As mentioned numerous times - if this meant to help the new players it will fail. Unless they are willing to drop significant cash in it, which rare ones will probably do. And that makes it unfair to heavy majority of other new players and also to older players.
Only thing CCP can get in begger numbers from this is older players redoing or getting new alts. And probably sh*tloads of unhappy customers on the other side. Set sail for fail.
As mentioned earlier, one of the essences of the EVE was being tough and hard. It kinda represents RL in space. All sorts of people, economy, politics, wars, decisions, actions and reactions, choices and consequences.. If you start deleting those what will the game turn into?
So people should stop whining about wrong choices in past but live with the consequences. Or CCP should start fixing everyone`s stupidity or change of interest? Stop complaining about not having same amount sp as vets, you could have started playing earlier. Or whatever. Life is not fair. Same with EVE ;) It was never before so easy to make isk. Go buy ships, chars or whatever you want. Do not screw the game even more to make it easier for lazy ones. Man the f*ck up and play.
If CCP wants to find way to attract and keep new players then they should focus on that instead of proposing such "innovations" which will have more negative effect than benefit for players and therefore for themselves as well. As the majority new players will not benefit from this.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2074
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:07:26 -
[1032] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Querns wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:How does my being able to buy skill points for myself negatively impact you? It lets you approach their meaningless number more closely with your meaningless number. Not even close, but then again I doubt someone who bought there first character would ever understand. Is this supposed to be attributed against me?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
woooooooooooo
DeepSpace Manufacturers DeepSpace.
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:07:28 -
[1033] - Quote
CCP, Please do not this. Literally SP trading is killing EVE. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1642
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:07:35 -
[1034] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Ignorance of reality? The reality is I will never sell my character to anyone else. Therefore it is not a commodity and never will be which makes it as unique as a character can be. It is 'special' in so far as it is mine and only mine. Whatever anyone else does with their characters is entirely up to them. Then this change is of no consequence to you and harms you in no way. Those that don't use it and chose not to commodify their characters or SP can train as normal.
I have no intent to use the feature, all the characters I would use it on have horrible return potential, but I see no reason to deny others.
|
Balsakian McGiggles
Black Serpent Technologies The-Culture
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:07:40 -
[1035] - Quote
I'm sure this has been said before, but I really don't support this change. I understand the diminishing returns for older players, however I cannot get over how wrong this feels. Sure, I don't have a lot of use for my mining skills. Sure, I think that new players can be saddled with bad characters in the Character Bazaar. But being able to use in-game money to translate that into SP? That's cheapening the story of your own character.
People have years invested in their characters, blemishes, mistrains, horrible naming and all. I do not support this change, please do not do this. |
Maximus Chaos
Misfits of Eve
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:08:05 -
[1036] - Quote
they have it all wrong, it is going to fail They need to sell skill sets to the buyer not just i want 50million sp for xxx isk you guy my large missile spec skill set from me for the I don't know the cost of the time to train the skill you buy
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2074
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:08:27 -
[1037] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:
The new system is only different in its granularity.
Wrong. I can't buy instant bulk sp for this or any arbitrary character in the old system. I can in the new system. World of difference. Cash to ccp. Bulk, instant, and arbitrarily large SP for any character of my choice. If you claim this is the same as the character bazaar, you're lying through your teeth. No, I'm just able to see things without a blood haze over my vision. It's the same thing. Characters in eve are not special. They are commodities to be bought and sold. Characters are special. Characters (players behind them) and corporations they run made this game what it is. They have made the game special. Entity, Chribba, Grendell, Lord Zap, Tank CEO, SirMolle, Mittens, voogru, Istvaan Shogaatsu, Arachvoid, Shamiz Orzoz etc etc. I could name hundreds of characters heavily involved in making EVE what it is. Are they just commodities? I find your approach quite shallow. That is why I can understand why you pushing so hard for something what will probably personally gain you, without caring about the whole picture. As mentioned numerous times - if this meant to help the new players it will fail. Unless they are willing to drop significant cash in it, which rare ones will probably do. And that makes it unfair to heavy majority of other new players and also to older players. Only thing CCP can get in begger numbers from this is older players redoing or getting new alts. And probably sh*tloads of unhappy customers on the other side. Set sail for fail. As mentioned earlier, one of the essences of the EVE was being tough and hard. It kinda represents RL in space. All sorts of people, economy, politics, wars, decisions, actions and reactions, choices and consequences.. If you start deleting those what will the game turn into? So people should stop whining about wrong choices in past but live with the consequences. Or CCP should start fixing everyone`s stupidity or change of interest? Stop complaining about not having same amount sp as vets, you could have started playing earlier. Or whatever. Life is not fair. Same with EVE ;) It was never before so easy to make isk. Go buy ships, chars or whatever you want. Do not screw the game even more to make it easier for lazy ones. Man the f*ck up and play. If CCP wants to find way to attract and keep new players then they should focus on that instead of proposing such "innovations" which will have more negative effect than benefit for players and therefore for themselves as well. As the majority new players will not benefit from this. Those are people, not characters. Any one of those could currently or have in the past sold their character and continue to be the "big name" that they are.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1642
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:08:29 -
[1038] - Quote
woooooooooooo wrote:CCP, Please do not this. Literally SP trading is killing EVE. How?
|
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
2825
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:10:19 -
[1039] - Quote
i like this idea.
Except you should just cut it off at 5M SP.
I personally don't see anything wrong with this. If I, with 150M SP's want to tank 450K SP's of my Mining Barge 5 and make some money off it, then I can do so. Those SP's, which are dead to me - DEAD TO ME - can then go to some noob who has 4.5M SP's and wants to get past the hump of training into a ship so he can access content sooner.
Win-win.
Be realistic, you raging nerds. If this is implemented properly, so that bittervets can sell off their training queue mistakes and newbros can hit 5M SP's faster and access content easier and fly cooler ships and kill whining forum alts' mains easier, then no one loses.
If you don't use those 3.5M Sp's in production and research Sp's, then why whinge abut being able to monestise them and get them off your back?
If you are afraid that someone who is starting out can turbocharge their way to 5M SP's (or even 10) by paying real world dollars, then so what? it means they might not die of brain-meltingness while struggling through the 1.5-5M SP hump when everything sucks, they make massive allocation mistakes, and don't know what they want to do.
But sure, go ahead and whine more.
Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob
We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA
~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
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Anthar Thebess
1339
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:12:26 -
[1040] - Quote
Just some thoughts CCP. Remember this is EVE, and this are EVE players you are "playing with".
I don't know if you considered this, but for older players there will be no point of paying for this game. Not because rage quit, simply because at some point you consider some chars perfect or good enough for the role you planed for them.
In my case , i bought a lot of characters , well not a lot, but enough. Enough that my jita trade alt have almost 50mil sp ( and skills in trade are almost non existent )
For me , and for MANY players ,there will be no point of paying for the subscription, as we will simply buy plex of the market ( yes they will skyrocket ) skill a character sitting somewhere in +5 and sell each month all skill points generated for the whole month. Difference between plex and skill points will be minimal
For me - i can start doing this on 2 accounts like now , and third one in like next 6 months.
People will be abusing this system, to create free mining accounts , as this group of people always love to have 1 more miner on field - and they wont need to mine for the whole plex , just like 10-15% of its value.
We will be having insta spies and avoxers - Hey Jack , this newbie you recruited yesterday is approaching me in a dictor.
This will deregulate very old rules, and when you consider how many accounts people will create just to abuse this mechanic in all possible forms , i think you will actually lose more money than you are planing to make.
This is very simple CCP , good EVE player know how to count , and find holes in a design. You guys are forgetting constantly about this.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1593
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:14:18 -
[1041] - Quote
The idea that the dev who thought this up didn't immediately get lynched and mauled by the others devs, trying to beat the stupid out of him/her is alarming. Apparently there's a group of people within CCP who think that this is a great idea and if they can come up with this steaming pile of **** they can come up with far worse things as well. This is a deal breaker for me. YT channel closed, I'm done.
So what other MMO's are out there, anyone have something good or should I just wait for Fallout 4 and play that for a bit. |
Mag's
the united
20476
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:14:48 -
[1042] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Mag's wrote:I'm still reeling from this. Shocked and disappointed, doesn't quite fit the bill right now. You haven't killed anything on that alt since 2011. I like you, because you seem a nice person. But so are the rest. So don't take the rest personally. I won't take it personally. I'll take it for what it's worth as an argument against my stance.
Zero.
Mag's is also my main, but thanks for the slight.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6848
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:16:07 -
[1043] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:We will be having insta spies and avoxers - Hey Jack , this newbie you recruited yesterday is approaching me in a dictor. Not bad, what are you in and are you ready to ~become content~
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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BirdStrike
State War Academy Caldari State
63
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:18:26 -
[1044] - Quote
Heres a potential exploit,
Lets say i'm johnny isk farmer. I've got my countless bot army of mackinaw miners out avoiding code. I don't do mining, its dirty so someone can probably run the numbers on how long it takes to a max out a sole purposr mack ice bot skills. Once that bot has those skills it doesnt need any more skills. It self plexes. So i throw in a pair of plus 5 implants and repeatedly train the same, ideally biggest sp multiplier timesink. Level V something long, like 30 days. I max out my stats for outright sp/hr in just that one skill.
Bingo. In addition to generating ice revenue my zombie miner is now breeding SP at what 2- 2.2m a month? Multiplied by say 12 bot miners thats 24 million sp / month on top of my ice income for literally zero effort. Just repeatedly farm and cash in those 500k blocks, miner bot doesnt care, miner bot just nom noms ice.
so suddenly all the miner bot isk farmers have a new revenue stream, and that of course affect supply/demand valuation for character bazaar toons. Same with pure marketing alts, got a main, booster and supercap on three accounts with six cyno alts for your supercap? 12m sp a month right there off three accounts spare slots. Cyno bunnies wont use it, just max out their stats as above, as long as sp is more than 1bn / 2m then your plex is paid on that account.
Lots more gamification to be had. Pandoras box this one. |
Draugo Rana
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
86
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:18:38 -
[1045] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Ignorance of reality? The reality is I will never sell my character to anyone else. Therefore it is not a commodity and never will be which makes it as unique as a character can be. It is 'special' in so far as it is mine and only mine. Whatever anyone else does with their characters is entirely up to them. Then this change is of no consequence to you and harms you in no way. Those that don't use it and chose not to commodify their characters or SP can train as normal. I have no intent to use the feature, all the characters I would use it on have horrible return potential, but I see no reason to deny others.
This is not a single player game, it's a multiplayer sandbox game, every action and reaction directly or indirectly effects something else, that's the whole point and the beauty of it.
Otherwise you can claim that we shouldn't mind people exploiting bugs to gain ISK, botting or doing RMT, because "it doesn't directly harm them in any way".
Masuat'aa Matari is recruiting Minmatar freedom fighters
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3516
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:19:51 -
[1046] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Elfaen Ethenwe wrote:I can make it work dude, thats my alt and i have both the isk and the accounts. This patch would boost me for a very long time and i still think its a terrible idea. Consuming an entire 200mill toon and funneling it into another 200mill toon results in a 219.5mill toon and a 5m toon. This just wont work. At all. Once you cross that 80 million threshold you'd only get 50,000 SP from a 500,000 SP packet. Seriously, there is an increase costs. It will work fine, assuming the desire to spend all it takes to to convert 195m SP @ 500k per transfer (390 transfers [x whatever the AUR price ends up being for the extractor]) and you're willing to accept a 10% ROI on the SP itself.
Once you cross 80 million you get 50,000 for every 500,000 SP packet.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Arthur Hannigen
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:20:09 -
[1047] - Quote
So this is how it ends. |
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
356
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:20:19 -
[1048] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:For people quitting in protest I remind them that Operation Magic School Bus does accept donations to help out the new players. Yes, this is a 'can I haz' post but it is one where the material will be put to good use, not just lining a wallet or hanger. Contract to me if you wish to donate.
m
Hmm, will keep this in mind.
After CCP Games fooked up with Incarna, as a customer I reduced my expenses towards the company by 75% (including eve store stuff), and "invested" that 75% into other space game mmo related companies. Who knows what the future holds ?
The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
|
Sentenced 1989
190
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:20:38 -
[1049] - Quote
Removing learning implants (built in +5's), flat 3000sp/hour even with some 200-300 sp/hour bonus depending on logged in time, shortening skill time needed to fly ships or removing ship restrictions (like frigate level 4 is enough to fly even T2 frigates but at reduced bonuses) is something I would even say it's not so bad of an idea.
I do agree that something should be done, I have few low skilled players who can't join us on certain activities because they can't fly certain ships and that should be adresed, but not like this
But this is kinda "wait, you're saying what?" moment.
The Incursion Guild
Epic Arc Guide
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Gunrunner1775
Interstellar Engineering and Electronics INC
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:21:06 -
[1050] - Quote
NOTE: i have not read all 52 pages of responses....
Alternate suggestion:
1) purchase a character from the bazaar via standard means
2) upon acquireing a character... i have a one time option (also consider a 30 day limit from time of acquireing new character) to purchase a NERDS with Aurum ( Nerulogical Enhanced Realignment Distribution of Skills )
this NERDS will allow the following things to happen
1- Character Rename 2- Character Corp History alteration * 3- Character Skill realignment **
*Character corp history Alteration- it retains the dates of all NPC corps. it deletes and places "Unknown" with dates for all Player corps (thus retaining at least a partial history of the character, the ability to see a characters history and start date is of vital importance in the game and should be retained )
** Character Skill realignment - allows the new owner to delete unwanted skills and acquire unspent skill points at a 2 to 1 ratio (or perhaps 3 to 1, to be discussed ) and then spend those unwanted skill points were he or she see's fit
at no time ever should skill points be packaged and sold on the market for isk
|
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Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
158
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:22:32 -
[1051] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Dirk MacGirk wrote:You seem to be assuming no cost to the extractors. There will be market competition for those as well. Probably more competition than seen on the bazaar for characters. Sure you can train those alts and transfer the SP to yourself, using an extractor for every 500/400/200/50k SP the recipient character will get out of them. But it will also only be for SP over 5 million on each of those alts, so there will always be a base of 5 million SP sitting on those alts that can never be removed.
I dunno. Until we know the value in Aurum for the extractors, and then try and determine the price on the markets as supply and demand goes to work, we have no idea how cost effective this will be for anyone. Let alone what any of it might mean for actual gameplay in EVE. Probably very little. Buy extractors for Aurum (Which is real money) Buy 10 new Accounts for PLEX (which is real money) Start training those and have your very own Super in a month. The only place where the market comes into play is when you buy the skillbooks, and they are NPC seeded. Yes, it will probably be more expensive than buying a character from the CB, but that doesn't help. Or would you say, that P2W is less terrible if it's just expensive enough?
You're correct, someone could buy their way into a super/titan and the char to use it. And that differs from the last 5 years how?
If people are so up in arms over this, then why aren't they shouting erryday about removing PLEX from the game? This is not the straw that breaks the Eve camel's back. The net effects of this are virtually no different than what has existed for years now. Probably just a transfer of effect from one bucket to another, but no noticeable increases in what it actually means in the game as far as player activity. Then again, we may not see those until well after the fact. Just like we did with PLEX and the explosion in alts. I'm not saying you're wrong, but this level of thread rage (in aggregate, not you) is way more associated with emotional disdain for anything the sniffs of P2W than what it probably really means to the game. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3516
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:22:47 -
[1052] - Quote
Gunrunner1775 wrote:NOTE: i have not read all 52 pages of responses....
Alternate suggestion:
1) purchase a character from the bazaar via standard means
2) upon acquireing a character... i have a one time option (also consider a 30 day limit from time of acquireing new character) to purchase a NERDS with Aurum ( Nerulogical Enhanced Realignment Distribution of Skills )
this NERDS will allow the following things to happen
1- Character Rename 2- Character Corp History alteration * 3- Character Skill realignment **
*Character corp history Alteration- it retains the dates of all NPC corps. it deletes and places "Unknown" with dates for all Player corps (thus retaining at least a partial history of the character, the ability to see a characters history and start date is of vital importance in the game and should be retained )
** Character Skill realignment - allows the new owner to delete unwanted skills and acquire unspent skill points at a 2 to 1 ratio (or perhaps 3 to 1, to be discussed ) and then spend those unwanted skill points were he or she see's fit
at no time ever should skill points be packaged and sold on the market for isk
Renaming without some measure to track them will make AWOXing and corp thefts much more common...or at least much less costly.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1642
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:23:04 -
[1053] - Quote
Draugo Rana wrote:This is not a single player game, it's a multiplayer sandbox game, every action and reaction directly or indirectly effects something else, that's the whole point and the beauty of it.
Otherwise you can claim that we shouldn't mind people exploiting bugs to gain ISK, botting or doing RMT, because "it doesn't directly harm them in any way". Actually botting and RMT have economic effects which do reach me so they aren't comparable. The only effect which could come about from refusing to sell a character is that that character is unavailable to everyone else, but then that won't change and the effect is exactly maintained. Thus this doesn't change anything, not because it has no effect, but because that effect is unchanged.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6848
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:23:43 -
[1054] - Quote
BirdStrike wrote:Heres a potential exploit,
Lets say i'm johnny isk farmer. I've got my countless bot army of mackinaw miners out avoiding code. I don't do mining, its dirty so someone can probably run the numbers on how long it takes to a max out a sole purposr mack ice bot skills. Once that bot has those skills it doesnt need any more skills. It self plexes. So i throw in a pair of plus 5 implants and repeatedly train the same, ideally biggest sp multiplier timesink. Level V something long, like 30 days. I max out my stats for outright sp/hr in just that one skill.
Bingo. In addition to generating ice revenue my zombie miner is now breeding SP at what 2- 2.2m a month? Multiplied by say 12 bot miners thats 24 million sp / month on top of my ice income for literally zero effort. Just repeatedly farm and cash in those 500k blocks, miner bot doesnt care, miner bot just nom noms ice.
so suddenly all the miner bot isk farmers have a new revenue stream, and that of course affect supply/demand valuation for character bazaar toons. Same with pure marketing alts, got a main, booster and supercap on three accounts with six cyno alts for your supercap? 12m sp a month right there off three accounts spare slots. Cyno bunnies wont use it, just max out their stats as above, as long as sp is more than 1bn / 2m then your plex is paid on that account.
Lots more gamification to be had. Pandoras box this one. Weren't they already growing tengu or ishtar alts on those accounts and flooding the market already
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
158
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:24:12 -
[1055] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:I've quickly skimmed through the thread, is there ANY CSM member who think this (or something similar) is a good idea? If not, and I would hope so, then how in the FCK did this happen. Which moron thought this would be a good idea?
Gorski for one http://crossingzebras.com/skillpoint-trading/
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1642
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:25:04 -
[1056] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Elfaen Ethenwe wrote:I can make it work dude, thats my alt and i have both the isk and the accounts. This patch would boost me for a very long time and i still think its a terrible idea. Consuming an entire 200mill toon and funneling it into another 200mill toon results in a 219.5mill toon and a 5m toon. This just wont work. At all. Once you cross that 80 million threshold you'd only get 50,000 SP from a 500,000 SP packet. Seriously, there is an increase costs. It will work fine, assuming the desire to spend all it takes to to convert 195m SP @ 500k per transfer (390 transfers [x whatever the AUR price ends up being for the extractor]) and you're willing to accept a 10% ROI on the SP itself. Once you cross 80 million you get 50,000 for every 500,000 SP packet.
Hence the statement "and you're willing to accept a 10% ROI on the SP itself."
The math I did accounted for that, 200m SP is 195m transferable @ 10% to another 200mSP char is a 219.5m SP char.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:28:58 -
[1057] - Quote
Querns wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:
The new system is only different in its granularity.
Wrong. I can't buy instant bulk sp for this or any arbitrary character in the old system. I can in the new system. World of difference. Cash to ccp. Bulk, instant, and arbitrarily large SP for any character of my choice. If you claim this is the same as the character bazaar, you're lying through your teeth. No, I'm just able to see things without a blood haze over my vision. It's the same thing. Characters in eve are not special. They are commodities to be bought and sold. Characters are special. Characters (players behind them) and corporations they run made this game what it is. They have made the game special. Entity, Chribba, Grendell, Lord Zap, Tank CEO, SirMolle, Mittens, voogru, Istvaan Shogaatsu, Arachvoid, Shamiz Orzoz etc etc. I could name hundreds of characters heavily involved in making EVE what it is. Are they just commodities? I find your approach quite shallow. That is why I can understand why you pushing so hard for something what will probably personally gain you, without caring about the whole picture. As mentioned numerous times - if this meant to help the new players it will fail. Unless they are willing to drop significant cash in it, which rare ones will probably do. And that makes it unfair to heavy majority of other new players and also to older players. Only thing CCP can get in begger numbers from this is older players redoing or getting new alts. And probably sh*tloads of unhappy customers on the other side. Set sail for fail. As mentioned earlier, one of the essences of the EVE was being tough and hard. It kinda represents RL in space. All sorts of people, economy, politics, wars, decisions, actions and reactions, choices and consequences.. If you start deleting those what will the game turn into? So people should stop whining about wrong choices in past but live with the consequences. Or CCP should start fixing everyone`s stupidity or change of interest? Stop complaining about not having same amount sp as vets, you could have started playing earlier. Or whatever. Life is not fair. Same with EVE ;) It was never before so easy to make isk. Go buy ships, chars or whatever you want. Do not screw the game even more to make it easier for lazy ones. Man the f*ck up and play. If CCP wants to find way to attract and keep new players then they should focus on that instead of proposing such "innovations" which will have more negative effect than benefit for players and therefore for themselves as well. As the majority new players will not benefit from this. Those are people, not characters. Any one of those could currently or have in the past sold their character and continue to be the "big name" that they are.
Those characters represent people. Eve wondered why none of them was sold? Because they are not commodities. People bond with their characters, with time and efforts which they had put in them and what those characters present.
But that even was not the main point of my post, that was just a simple example of chars not being commodities. The point is that this will have no real benefit for new players and plenty of side effects and. And that it is potentially great threat to EVE.
And if that`s all you had to say on my post then I congratulate you for 50 pages of trolling. Since you obviously have no intention to work/discuss on actual improvement of the game I suppose you are just trolling or you are working in the opposite direction of my intentions (improving the game), for any reason there might be.
Since most of other comments who are supporting this idea are alts, I am glad that community has strong vote for NO. Though I hope even more people states that this idea is ********, so CCP does a "reality check" and see in how wrong direction they are going and that they have to change their mindset and vision to actually improve the game for the sake of the game and players.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6848
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:29:09 -
[1058] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Hence the statement "and you're willing to accept a 10% ROI on the SP itself."
The math I did accounted for that, 200m SP is 195m transferable @ 10% to another 200mSP char is a 219.5m SP char and 5m SP leftover nontransferable on the first char.
How much AUR will all the packets it takes to transfer that cost?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
692
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:29:15 -
[1059] - Quote
Guys, take a step back and calm down.
This isn't that big of a deal.
There's way too much hyperbole and ad-hominem attacks flying around here.
You're all acting incredibly irrational and are letting your emotional attachments to arbitrary numbers influence you into acting in a manner that portrays your true selves in a way you'd probably not want to be perceived.
It's OK. It doesn't hurt veterans except for their egos and sense of entitlement.
This isn't taking ANYTHING away from anyone, it's only giving more to those who don't have.
And if you only feel valuable because of your skill point advantage, then SHAME ON YOU. People who won't let others have simply because they want to say they have more are one of the major reasons our world is such a ****** place.
Stop being so God damned selfish. |
Chrome Veinss
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:30:03 -
[1060] - Quote
BirdStrike wrote:Heres a potential exploit,
Lets say i'm johnny isk farmer. I've got my countless bot army of mackinaw miners out avoiding code. I don't do mining, its dirty so someone can probably run the numbers on how long it takes to a max out a sole purposr mack ice bot skills. Once that bot has those skills it doesnt need any more skills. It self plexes. So i throw in a pair of plus 5 implants and repeatedly train the same, ideally biggest sp multiplier timesink. Level V something long, like 30 days. I max out my stats for outright sp/hr in just that one skill.
Bingo. In addition to generating ice revenue my zombie miner is now breeding SP at what 2- 2.2m a month? Multiplied by say 12 bot miners thats 24 million sp / month on top of my ice income for literally zero effort. Just repeatedly farm and cash in those 500k blocks, miner bot doesnt care, miner bot just nom noms ice.
so suddenly all the miner bot isk farmers have a new revenue stream, and that of course affect supply/demand valuation for character bazaar toons. Same with pure marketing alts, got a main, booster and supercap on three accounts with six cyno alts for your supercap? 12m sp a month right there off three accounts spare slots. Cyno bunnies wont use it, just max out their stats as above, as long as sp is more than 1bn / 2m then your plex is paid on that account.
Lots more gamification to be had. Pandoras box this one.
I see no problem with this? Ideally I'd like the game to be engaging to the point where everything, including mining, is impossible to multibox. Nobody (as far as I know anyway) multiboxes fleets of kiting frigates because the gameplay is demanding enough that a human's attention has to be focused on one client. But this is a game where a lot of things are better done semi afk by a single rich person with 3 monitors and 10 alts. These people are currently a net detriment to the game. Basically everything alts do that could involve human interaction instead is a detriment to the game and against the core of Eve. If they can farm sp and sell it, at least they will bring some value to the rest of players by providing a useful commodity. |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6848
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:30:43 -
[1061] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Though I hope even more people states that this idea is ********, so CCP does a "reality check" and see in how wrong direction they are going and that they have to change their mindset and vision to actually improve the game for the sake of the game and players. I hope exactly the opposite. What part of that, is up to you.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3516
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:30:53 -
[1062] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Hence the statement "and you're willing to accept a 10% ROI on the SP itself."
The math I did accounted for that, 200m SP is 195m transferable @ 10% to another 200mSP char is a 219.5m SP char and 5m SP leftover nontransferable on the first char.
So you cannot drain a 200 million SP character and create a 200 million SP character with the drained SP. Based on my rather low price estimates...this would likely cost 145 billion ISK to get a 200 million SP character.
To get that last 120 million SP to get to a total of 200 million SP, you'd need SP packets with 1.2 billion SP. You'd literally need to suck dry 10 characters with 120 million SP. Good luck with that and doing it for just 145 billion.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1642
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:30:54 -
[1063] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Hence the statement "and you're willing to accept a 10% ROI on the SP itself."
The math I did accounted for that, 200m SP is 195m transferable @ 10% to another 200mSP char is a 219.5m SP char and 5m SP leftover nontransferable on the first char.
How much AUR will all the packets it takes to transfer that cost? If there was an aur price listed I missed it, but that's 390 extractors so... I'd assume quite a bit.
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Smendrik Von'Smendle
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:31:43 -
[1064] - Quote
I like this idea, only slightly modified.
What if you could do this but the person that extracts the SP's only gets a time based benefit for the skills extracted.
I.E. I package all of my mining skills because I no longer need/want them and then sell them for mega ISK and the person who extracts them gets a double/triple/quad speed rate for training in mining?
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Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:32:13 -
[1065] - Quote
I vote NO to this.
Has anyone here who tried eve long ago on a trial and then stopped wished they kept training for all those years? Basically wished they had given CCP money every month for years even if they were not playing?
And then come back and never stopped training because this time they were not going to miss any skill training time like they did last time even if their play time is limited?
How will this change affect the thousands of skill que online players over the long term in their dedication to keep giving CCP money when the hard limit of skill versus time is removed?
Think about this and the power of the skill training system with its current unchangeable limit on SP/time on a single toon in how much it motivates even inactive players to pay CCP for EVE.
Then remove this incentive or give the perception that you are removing it.
Fair thee well is all I can say if you do not see the danger in this CCP. There is a lighthouse with its lights blazing in front of you but you seem to not see the rocks below it and are looking at it like light at the end of a tunnel.
It will turn into your own shipwreck.
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Marsha Mallow
2624
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:32:15 -
[1066] - Quote
Mag's wrote:]Mag's is also my main, but thanks anyway. You seem nice regardless of Sp or 'SKIN' ingame, and being around for a while hones the eve humour But you cut newbros down faster than they have time to pick up the lingo There are some horriable loops of ego irony i don't even want to tread on But there are few women here - and we're not collectively dim
And I'll still ask, when was the last time any of you showed some SKIN?
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
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Pronoes
The Volition Cult
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:36:03 -
[1067] - Quote
It's not the best idea but I'm not sure of the knee jerk reactions going on in here.
I imagine it would cost an absolute fortune to create your perfect character. Depending on the pricing, I highly doubt there will be thousands of super pilots running around. Only CCP know the spread of wealth on characters and while I know that some have trillions, some have 100's of billions, I'd guess that the majority don't have anywhere near approaching those kinds of amounts.
Personally I would like to see something along the same lines but not quite so open to abuse. I'd love to be able to refund my mining skills and reallocate them where I see fit. They should stay on the same character they were accrued on. Abuse preventative measures would have to be in place of course. Reallocating SP on the fly mid fight to give an edge over a certain opponent would be ridiculous of course. However, consuming a neural remap / consuming plex / ratio degradation of SP to unallocated SP / time limits etc would be the most prudent course.
If I could pay 1 or 2 plex, visit a memory reallocation clinic in a station somewhere, siphon/drain 6m SP from science and receive 3m unallocated to spend where I want, I'd be happy with that. Being able to do something like that once every year / 6 month / 3 month would be useful.
Or maybe quite literally have a siphon. You can choose to drain 6m SP for 3m. But you have to choose where to allocate it there and then. Rather than being instantaneous, you lose 200,000 SP a day and "learn" your new chosen skills at a rate of 100,000 a day for example.
Or require the pilot to be docked up at a station for a week etc etc. Anything that would make it non-trivial to accomplish. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1644
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:36:52 -
[1068] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Hence the statement "and you're willing to accept a 10% ROI on the SP itself."
The math I did accounted for that, 200m SP is 195m transferable @ 10% to another 200mSP char is a 219.5m SP char and 5m SP leftover nontransferable on the first char.
So you cannot drain a 200 million SP character and create a 200 million SP character with the drained SP. Based on my rather low price estimates...this would likely cost 145 billion ISK to get a 200 million SP character. To get that last 120 million SP to get to a total of 200 million SP, you'd need SP packets with 1.2 billion SP. You'd literally need to suck dry 10 characters with 120 million SP. Good luck with that and doing it for just 145 billion. Her statement was, I thought, that she had 2 200m SP characters and wanted to combine them, thus I did the math on a combination. The total SP beforehand is 400mSP between the 2, the total afterwards is 224.5.
As for RL cost or aur/isk, I just went with the claim she made that she was willing and able and tried to give perspective on what it would take.
I never claimed a character was going from 0 to 219.5m SP, rather from 200m SP to 219.5m SP. Maybe I misunderstood the scenario? |
Mag's
the united
20480
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:37:00 -
[1069] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Mag's wrote:Mag's is also my main, but thanks anyway. You seem nice regardless of Sp or 'SKIN' ingame, and being around for a while hones the eve humour But you cut newbros down faster than they have time to pick up the lingo There are some horriable loops of ego irony i don't even want to tread on But there are few women here - and we're not collectively dim And I'll still ask, when was the last time any of you showed some SKIN? I was in game a week or so ago, helping a friend. Just before that I had to remove my -10 status, in order to help a friend out in high sec. Didn't like doing it mind and now I feel naked.
But seeing as I pay my sub, what relevance does it have when I play?
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Draugo Rana
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
87
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:37:03 -
[1070] - Quote
I really don't understand the "You already have character bazaar, why do you mind so much making it more accessible, blunt, abusable, exploitable and with less consequences?" argument.
So if I think that the character bazaar is a bad idea but I am willing to live with it because it's been there forever and is pretty much status quo then I should now be willing to just accept any fundamental change in this game aspect with open arms?
That's a rather ridiculous argument.
Masuat'aa Matari is recruiting Minmatar freedom fighters
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Horus V
The Destined
149
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:38:07 -
[1071] - Quote
People who trained skills for more than 10 years must now feel very stupid lol
V
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darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:39:11 -
[1072] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:This isn't taking ANYTHING away from anyone, it's only giving more to those who don't have.
this is (more or less) true but not the point.
i think many ppl in here forget that something like this will also be possible with the new thing:
imagine you are camped inside a station with a few ppl and noone of you can use jammers for example. or a logistic or whatever you would need to win. usually you would have to buy the skill and train it until you are good enough. the other option would be to buy a character who can already use/fly it. none of these solutions works instantly. but if you are rich, you can simply buy skillpoints instantly and turn the whole situation. and this is one example where this system would give more to those who don't have wich is just not right. |
Yroc Jannseen
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
150
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:39:41 -
[1073] - Quote
Horus V wrote:People who trained skills for more than 10 years must now feel very stupid lol
Like those people that researched BPO's forever. |
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1314
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:39:44 -
[1074] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote:Neuntausend wrote:Dirk MacGirk wrote:You seem to be assuming no cost to the extractors. There will be market competition for those as well. Probably more competition than seen on the bazaar for characters. Sure you can train those alts and transfer the SP to yourself, using an extractor for every 500/400/200/50k SP the recipient character will get out of them. But it will also only be for SP over 5 million on each of those alts, so there will always be a base of 5 million SP sitting on those alts that can never be removed.
I dunno. Until we know the value in Aurum for the extractors, and then try and determine the price on the markets as supply and demand goes to work, we have no idea how cost effective this will be for anyone. Let alone what any of it might mean for actual gameplay in EVE. Probably very little. Buy extractors for Aurum (Which is real money) Buy 10 new Accounts for PLEX (which is real money) Start training those and have your very own Super in a month. The only place where the market comes into play is when you buy the skillbooks, and they are NPC seeded. Yes, it will probably be more expensive than buying a character from the CB, but that doesn't help. Or would you say, that P2W is less terrible if it's just expensive enough? You're correct, someone could buy their way into a super/titan and the char to use it. And that differs from the last 5 years how? If people are so up in arms over this, then why aren't they shouting erryday about removing PLEX from the game? This is not the straw that breaks the Eve camel's back. The net effects of this are virtually no different than what has existed for years now. Probably just a transfer of effect from one bucket to another, but no noticeable increases in what it actually means in the game as far as player activity. Then again, we may not see those until well after the fact. Just like we did with PLEX and the explosion in alts. I'm not saying you're wrong, but this level of thread rage (in aggregate, not you) is way more associated with emotional disdain for anything the sniffs of P2W than what it probably really means to the game.
I think you kinda missed the point with PLEX: Try reading what I wrote on Page 39 and then tell me this isn't going to change anything:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:First you devalued my character by introducing Multi Character Training (MCT). When it was single character training you knew someone had spent their 30 days of game time training that character and couldn't train another on that account. That added value to the Character. To do MCT you attached it to PLEX which put PLEX prices up. Next you introduced the NEX store with cosmetic items for the price of Aurum. Funny thing that PLEX converts to Aurum and so PLEX prices went up. After that you introduced SKINs which lets players customise their ships. All good, except again you attached that to Aurum. Again PLEX can be converted into Aurum and so PLEX prices are currently at 1.2bil (Source: EVE Central) Now we've covered that, let's see why PLEX was introduced: To allow people who are time rich but cash poor to be able to play the game and pay for game time from their in-game wallets. Currently a low skilled Character (<5mil SP) won't be able to afford 1.2bil to buy a PLEX to do any of this malarkey with SP extraction\injection. You're pricing them out of the market FFS. More of a concern is that PLEX isn't being used for what it was brought in-game for and is just another money stream that's turning into a torrent for CCP. Just change it's name to something more meaningful rather than the "30 Day Pilot's License Extension" and separate Aurum from PLEX. Class it as "Monetary Tiercide" if you want but PLEX should be for Game Time and all the other bumpf you're pushing onto PLEX (and the prices) should be Aurum Suggestion: If you're short on cash just increase the price of subscription a little.
The other stuff on the slippery slope to microtransactions, P2W, etc have all been well covered in and out of rage by others.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1644
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:40:03 -
[1075] - Quote
Draugo Rana wrote: I really don't understand the "You already have character bazaar, why do you mind so much making it more accessible, blunt, abusable, exploitable and with less consequences?" argument.
So if I think that the character bazaar is a bad idea but I am willing to live with it because it's been there forever and is pretty much status quo then I should now be willing to just accept any fundamental change in this game aspect with open arms?
That's a rather ridiculous argument.
How is it more abusable? Is having the ability to accrue SP faster really an abuse/exploit? Also what consequence is missing?
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Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
14
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Posted - 2015.10.15 23:40:12 -
[1076] - Quote
Horus V wrote:People who trained skills for more than 10 years must now feel very stupid lol
New players like myself that are planning to train for ten more years are changing their minds. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
102
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:41:10 -
[1077] - Quote
This is the worst idea I've seen during my time in EVE.
- I can easily imagine alt accounts (or very high SP accounts) finding a side profession in constantly training skills in demand and then selling them on market. Such source of SP can then turn the whole idea into large a pay-to-win market.
- This has a potential to scale well beyond the current SP transfer via character bazaar. As such it has a substantially stronger pay-to-win taste to it than the character bazaar.
- It removes a huge deal of value from choices you made when developing a character. In bazaar you buy/sell whole characters, with their pros and their cons. Here you trade SP like any other commodity.
- The idea is very poorly motivated. Reading the blog I keep asking myself: why you dismiss improving character market? Perhaps it might need a large web feature, but if you can pursue task as large as new structures, or sov revamp (or the proposed skill market for that matter), then why not better character bazaar? Character naming is not an answer either: to me, changing character name is less detrimental than the skill market. Perhaps its SP distribution then? Well, that is actually a feature that makes skill choices matter (even if in the price of the sold character). To be honest, reading the motivation I can't stop thinking that the main point is to monetize SP on a more flexible terms than character market allows. In the short term it might be a fresh source of income, but it will also spell the decline of this game.
You are going to alienate a significant fraction of EVE players base. This game has a relatively mature players, many of whom will not go well with such ruthless monetization of game experience and trivialization of character development. |
Chroniccandy 420
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:41:14 -
[1078] - Quote
I really don't like the idea of letting 6 month old toons run around with as many sp as my toon that took 8 years to get to its current position. But I do like the idea of reallocating sp.
How about if character SP can be borrowed from another character on the same account. And a percentage of the characters sp. ex: 20 m sp character could borrow a third of the total sp. But during that time the character being borrowed from goes into cryosleep and cannot be used during that time. Then when the character borrowing the SP dies it is returned to the original character. you could even put a price for the temporary transfer. and options for when the character does die to do the same character sp borrow again. Wow that sounds like a good reason to have a cloning button icon in the hanger!
I think that sounds much better then letting noob toons, buy there SP. and at the same time punishing veteran players by not letting them have the same return on investment. I can see and would like new players to be able to have a more enjoyable game experience and I think that's a great idea. But it doesn't mean that since we helped "noob" pilot we have to punish vet pilots.
Also there is nothing wrong with the Character Bazaar... except for it doesn't allow decent searches and options to say I'm looking for characters with specifically these skills. I better lookup system would fix the bazaar. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1644
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:42:10 -
[1079] - Quote
Horus V wrote:People who trained skills for more than 10 years must now feel very stupid lol Why? I'd think it stupid to play the game for 10 years without training due to the off chance that I might be able to monetize my training mistakes over that 10 year period at some point in the future.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3516
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:44:09 -
[1080] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Guys, take a step back and calm down.
This isn't that big of a deal.
There's way too much hyperbole and ad-hominem attacks flying around here.
You're all acting incredibly irrational and are letting your emotional attachments to arbitrary numbers influence you into acting in a manner that portrays your true selves in a way you'd probably not want to be perceived.
It's OK. It doesn't hurt veterans except for their egos and sense of entitlement.
This isn't taking ANYTHING away from anyone, it's only giving more to those who don't have.
And if you only feel valuable because of your skill point advantage, then SHAME ON YOU. People who won't let others have simply because they want to say they have more are one of the major reasons our world is such a ****** place.
Stop being so God damned selfish.
Even the "damage" to older players is minimal. If one wants to make an 80 million SP character it will take 204,000,000 SP to get to 80 million SP. So, as a current estimate of that "cost" in terms of SP, how much would a 204 million SP character go for on the character bazaar?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Brusanan
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
322
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:45:19 -
[1081] - Quote
And I just resubbed on Monday. Time to ragequit again.
Psychotic Monk and DJ FunkyBacon for CSM!
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Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives Executive Outcomes
1116
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:46:04 -
[1082] - Quote
Can anyone who's complaining tell me exactly how this is any different to me just paying -ú15 a month or whatever to train a second character and then selling it? Apart from now I can do it without paying -ú15 a month as long as I don't mind my character learning nothing new?
"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
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BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
477
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:46:15 -
[1083] - Quote
I love it....Mostly because it makes so many people squawk... |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6848
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:46:51 -
[1084] - Quote
Chroniccandy 420 wrote:I think that sounds much better then letting noob toons, buy there SP. and at the same time punishing veteran players by not letting them have the same return on investment. I can see and would like new players to be able to have a more enjoyable game experience and I think that's a great idea. But it doesn't mean that since we helped "noob" pilot we have to punish vet pilots. Well I guess they could train Capacitor Management to 6 with all that XP.... instead of I don't know... capital hull repair systems 5 which is what you'd be training if you had so much sp by this point.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Marsha Mallow
2625
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:47:15 -
[1085] - Quote
Mag's wrote:But seeing as I pay my sub, what relevance does it have when I play? That's a really good question. Answer it properly. (And yeh, I am absolutely challenging you, but since that hasn't happened without your consent since 2011 I'm hoping you'll enjoy it)
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
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darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:47:26 -
[1086] - Quote
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:Can anyone who's complaining tell me exactly how this is any different to me just paying -ú15 a month or whatever to train a second character and then selling it? Apart from now I can do it without paying -ú15 a month as long as I don't mind my character learning nothing new?
one example is my last post. more examples are spreaded over this thread. |
Cartheron Crust
Matari Exodus
181
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:48:06 -
[1087] - Quote
Bad, just bad. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6848
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:49:17 -
[1088] - Quote
Delegate wrote: This has a potential to scale well beyond the current SP transfer via character bazaar. As such it has a substantially stronger pay-to-win taste to it than the character bazaar.. Suppose a packet cost 2 plex worth of AUR to make.
Ok, now suppose it's a little bit less... where's the tipping point?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Chjna
the Goose Flock
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:49:51 -
[1089] - Quote
Get into a corp with an api check and all as a noob, plugg in skills for covert cyno and other suspicious skills, awox expensive ****, burn your char and then move on to a new one.
wtf ccp.
Also, t2 BPOs...
Remove T2 BPOs
|
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives Executive Outcomes
1116
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:50:03 -
[1090] - Quote
darkchild's corpse wrote:Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:Can anyone who's complaining tell me exactly how this is any different to me just paying -ú15 a month or whatever to train a second character and then selling it? Apart from now I can do it without paying -ú15 a month as long as I don't mind my character learning nothing new? one example is my last post. more examples are spreaded over this thread.
Dude I'm not going to read 55 pages. I read the first 5 pages or so and it's mainly people saying how terrible and pay to win this is despite the fact that you can already just buy a supercap pilot using real life money to buy PLEX and using PLEX to buy characters totally legitimately.
"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
|
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Draugo Rana
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
89
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:50:24 -
[1091] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Draugo Rana wrote: I really don't understand the "You already have character bazaar, why do you mind so much making it more accessible, blunt, abusable, exploitable and with less consequences?" argument.
So if I think that the character bazaar is a bad idea but I am willing to live with it because it's been there forever and is pretty much status quo then I should now be willing to just accept any fundamental change in this game aspect with open arms?
That's a rather ridiculous argument.
How is it more abusable? Is having the ability to accrue SP faster really an abuse/exploit? Also what consequence is missing?
The consequence that when you buy a character from the bazaar you need to live with that character's skill allocation, reputation, history, name, appearance. That was a trade off you had to deal with. I never liked that possibility to do this but at least it has these consequences.
And people in this thread already started to point out various ways this system can be abused and I am sure this is just the tip of the iceberg. Because yes, what can possible go wrong when modifying such a core system and letting everyone just move skills back and forth at whim?
Masuat'aa Matari is recruiting Minmatar freedom fighters
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Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
692
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:50:33 -
[1092] - Quote
Delegate wrote: This game has a relatively mature players, many of whom will not go well with such ruthless monetization of game experience and trivialization of character development.
They don't sound like a relatively mature player base if their instinct is to stomp their feet and scream for mommy and daddy CCP to make the boogey man under the bed go away.
This is a change that hurts no one in any way other than perpetually sad, angry people no longer feeling like the special snowflakes they tricked themselves into thinking they are.
Get undumb, bad at life noobs.
#thebest |
Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:50:56 -
[1093] - Quote
I chose not to use the CB because I wanted to train my toon myself.
But even if I do not use it I know most players look at it and measure the worth of their character by it as I do.
Currently every character depending on their skills has value that can be quantified by the CB.
After this change your characters worth is based on skill goo not training decisions.
And even if you never plan to sell your toons but take pride in min/maxing skills this change affects your perceived value of what you have accomplished in your dedication to training your toon and paying CCP monthly in the process and cheapens it in ways I can not even calculate.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6848
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:51:32 -
[1094] - Quote
Chjna wrote:Get into a corp with an api check and all as a noob, plugg in skills for covert cyno and other suspicious skills, awox expensive ****, burn your char and then move on to a new one.. Sounds a lot more expensive than the current way people awox with noob alts....
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Mag's
the united
20480
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:52:28 -
[1095] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Mag's wrote:But seeing as I pay my sub, what relevance does it have when I play? That's a really good question. Answer it properly. (And yeh, I am absolutely challenging you, but since that hasn't happened without your consent since 2011 I'm hoping you'll enjoy it) At this point you need to make yourself a little clearer. It's late, I'm tired.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
CowRocket Void
Great White North Productions Alternate Allegiance
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:52:52 -
[1096] - Quote
No, don't do it.
bleeding shadow darkness > did i just saw a red procurer? :P
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3516
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:53:29 -
[1097] - Quote
Chjna wrote:Get into a corp with an api check and all as a noob, plugg in skills for covert cyno and other suspicious skills, awox expensive ****, burn your char and then move on to a new one.
wtf ccp.
Also, t2 BPOs...
Wow, it must be a long time since you logged in. T2 BPOs are now kinda crap.
And, yeah you can do your AWOXing if you have deep, deep pockets, but then again somebody with deep pockets like that can do it now with the character bazaar.
So can we stop posting this nonsense.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9240
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:53:38 -
[1098] - Quote
Since the popular mantra around here is "SP doesn't really matter. It's the skill that comes with time that counts", why all the butthurt?
You will have (according to the raging quitters) everyone buying up skills with no idea how to use them. Do you dim bulbs not see the opportunity here for tear harvesting? Or have you all reverted into the millennial mentality that so pervades the internet these days?
I'd think that half the people posting tears, rage-quit, and fear posts would be doing the opposite and lauding this potential change to how we take advantage of new players.
Seriously' people. Use the brain once in a while.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Dahnan Moiryne
Triple A Tiny-boobs
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:54:53 -
[1099] - Quote
I loved Eve cuz there is the only way to increase my skills, by the time. And now you guys saying about trading SP. I wait for some momths for get some nice big ships, and now you guys ****** up me. I'm done. If that SP item is really sell at store, then I'll stop my all account. Have fun. |
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives Executive Outcomes
1116
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:55:20 -
[1100] - Quote
Draugo Rana wrote: The consequence that when you buy a character from the bazaar you need to live with that character's skill allocation, reputation, history, name, appearance. That was a trade off you had to deal with. I never liked that possibility to do this but at least it has these consequences.
This is a pretty poor argument as only an idiot not checking the character's background for themselves is ever going to buy a character with a rubbish skill allocation, history, name, and appearance.
I mean if you buy a character called popblues420 with a corp history 2 miles long for full price then that's stupid.
The only thing I've seen that's any different is that you can shunt your skill points around on one character, which I would agree isn't great.
"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
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Alensin Penshar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:55:31 -
[1101] - Quote
I will definitively vote NO on this. I am one of five accounts, three of the oldest are not even subscribed right now. EVE is in freefall after GALATEA. I checked Aura on my phone before posting this and there are right now only 18,445 pilots online in EVE!
Are you paying attention, 18,445 pilots! Where the heck is Goonswarm for crying out loud! They have more pilots than that by like 3 to 1. If that isn't the definition of EVE is dying, not sure what is. I personally fought for 18 days with this account to login after GALATEA was released and after giving them the launcher error from the launcher log, they fixed it in less than two days. Too bad for me, they did nothing about the fact I lost 18 days until I went back into my bug report and screamed bloody murder that they owed me for giving them the fix. After 2 days, they agreed and applied a plex to my account. That's part and parcel for why the numbers are so abysmally low. I have not seen numbers over 31,000 in the last two weeks. Where is everyone? CCP cannot keep the game running on these numbers. As more and more players let their accounts expire, the game will die.
This idea just blows me away, they do not need more money, they need to keep the game up so people will resubscribe and keep them flush with money. My unsubscribed accounts include a 2003 post beta account and early 2004 account. Both have substantial skill points but I would never consider what they are suggesting because they get enough of my money now.
Just putting my two cents worth in. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:56:08 -
[1102] - Quote
darkchild's corpse wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:This isn't taking ANYTHING away from anyone, it's only giving more to those who don't have. this is (more or less) true but not the point. i think many ppl in here forget that something like this will also be possible with the new thing: imagine you are camped inside a station with a few ppl and noone of you can use jammers for example. or a logistic or whatever you would need to win. usually you would have to buy the skill and train it until you are good enough. the other option would be to buy a character who can already use/fly it. none of these solutions works instantly. but if you are rich, you can simply buy skillpoints instantly and turn the whole situation. and this is one example where this system would give more to those who don't have wich is just not right. That makes some assumptions about how this works:
a) it's available where you are docked in sufficient quantities to meet your immediate need or b) it's on contact and redeemable anywhere or c) you already had the free SP from the purchase already applied
If it requires the first case, which one would hope it will, it's no different then having a mod you need in station for purchase when you have an immediate need. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3520
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:56:13 -
[1103] - Quote
Dahnan Moiryne wrote:I loved Eve cuz there is the only way to increase my skills, by the time. And now you guys saying about trading SP. I wait for some momths for get some nice big ships, and now you guys ****** up me. I'm done. If that SP item is really sell at store, then I'll stop my all account. Have fun.
Yeah, you forgot about the character bazaar.
Oh, and you just don't know what you are talking about. You can't log into the store and just buy SP. Reading the actual dev blog would help you look less ignorant.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Menkary Hardluck
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:56:18 -
[1104] - Quote
Oh God, no. Please no. Training up a character is supposed to be hard. The choices you make in training are not supposed to be easy. It is supposed to be something you have to very carefully plan. I don't want to see EVE as pay-to-win. |
Fool Nalelmir
LEX University Limited Expectations
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:59:08 -
[1105] - Quote
Ok there you go I just canceled my subscriptions. After the 231 actual days I have spent in game and the HOLY CRAP (I looked it up) thousands of dollars i have spent on this game to be told that my time and the i went threw to get to this point in eve matters less than getting some new kids that will unsub in a month cuts to dang deep. At least the folks at Star Citizen are honest about taking my money.
Now I wish i wouldn't have gotten those Eve Vegas tickets.
CCP you have till Jan to make me change my mind |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3520
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:00:08 -
[1106] - Quote
Menkary Hardluck wrote:Oh God, no. Please no. Training up a character is supposed to be hard. The choices you make in training are not supposed to be easy. It is supposed to be something you have to very carefully plan. I don't want to see EVE as pay-to-win.
Another player ignorant of the character bazaar.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:00:11 -
[1107] - Quote
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote: Dude I'm not going to read 55 pages. I read the first 5 pages or so and it's mainly people saying how terrible and pay to win this is despite the fact that you can already just buy a supercap pilot using real life money to buy PLEX and using PLEX to buy characters totally legitimately.
dude... your point is invalid for two reasons:
1. you: "why is it a bad idea?" "it's already answered, just read it" "no, i'm lazy"
2. saing "there are already pay to win possiblites" is no reason to implement another one wich is even worse |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9242
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:00:43 -
[1108] - Quote
Menkary Hardluck wrote:Oh God, no. Please no. Training up a character is supposed to be hard.
I'm not sure what game you play, but obviously not this one.
Training up a character is as easy as buying a bunch of PLEX an hitting the Character Bazaar. Not exactly the killer grind you seem to think it is.
~ed~ I bow to Teckos' superior speed typing skills.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:00:48 -
[1109] - Quote
Draugo Rana wrote:The consequence that when you buy a character from the bazaar you need to live with that character's skill allocation, reputation, history, name, appearance. That was a trade off you had to deal with. I never liked that possibility to do this but at least it has these consequences.
And people in this thread already started to point out various ways this system can be abused and I am sure this is just the tip of the iceberg. Because yes, what can possible go wrong when modifying such a core system and letting everyone just move skills back and forth at whim? The majority of the objections are unsupported kneejerk posts, of those that do present reasoning and exploits, I haven't seen one that would actually work as stated with the restrictions actually presented in the blog.
Also moving SP back and forth for any remotely trained character is about the worst thing you can do with the system s described,
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3520
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:00:58 -
[1110] - Quote
Fool Nalelmir wrote:Ok there you go I just canceled my subscriptions. After the 231 actual days I have spent in game and the HOLY CRAP (I looked it up) thousands of dollars i have spent on this game to be told that my time and the i went threw to get to this point in eve matters less than getting some new kids that will unsub in a month cuts to dang deep. At least the folks at Star Citizen are honest about taking my money.
Now I wish i wouldn't have gotten those Eve Vegas tickets.
CCP you have till Jan to make me change my mind
You didn't read the dev blog did you?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3520
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:01:55 -
[1111] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Menkary Hardluck wrote:Oh God, no. Please no. Training up a character is supposed to be hard. I'm not sure what game you play, but obviously not this one. Training up a character is as easy as buying a bunch of PLEX an hitting the Character Bazaar. Not exactly the killer grind you seem to think it is. Mr Epeen
Exactly, and even if you did the old fashioned way, you plug in the skills, set up your queue and then go watch Walking Dead. Damned hard.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1900
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:03:27 -
[1112] - Quote
u3pog wrote:Don't forget people on the forums are actually a small percentage of the whole player base, so whether we approve or disapprove this idea, we do not speak for all of them. We are expressing our little, humble opinion. I don't think CSM can speak for us too. Sure they are our voice in CCP, but they are not our mind. The fact that I voted for someone doesn't mean that he/she always expresses my opinion.
If CCP has doubts about this after reading the thread, I suggest a poll to all players, maybe shown in the launcher or something. If not, they could "polish" this idea based on feedback and then release it.
it takes a lot more than the usual forum crowd to hit 55+ pages in a day. although how many are alt posts from forum regulars I couldn't say. but I do imagine this kinda news spreads fast and gets a lot of people that don't usually post to say something.
@ChainsawPlankto
|
Draugo Rana
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
91
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:04:18 -
[1113] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Menkary Hardluck wrote:Oh God, no. Please no. Training up a character is supposed to be hard. The choices you make in training are not supposed to be easy. It is supposed to be something you have to very carefully plan. I don't want to see EVE as pay-to-win. Another player ignorant of the character bazaar.
Another player who can't be bothered to actually read some of the previous responses addressing the point why the existence of a character bazaar is not really an excuse to making things worse.
Masuat'aa Matari is recruiting Minmatar freedom fighters
|
Daniel Westelius
Specter Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:05:00 -
[1114] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:I don't like this. Could be worse, but I don't like it.
A lowish hard cap would make it not as bad. But it still leads to "I just subscribed, but unless I spend more real money, I'll always be behind"
What is your point exactly? Currently new subscribers will ALWAYS be behind, this just gives those new subscribers a chance to partially catch up if they are willing to spend the money.
I have to give you some props though for at least stating some of your reasoning, unlike the rest of the CSM members that have chimed in so far. For future CSM members that are thinking about posting, give some reasoning behind your position and not just "I don't like it because I don't like it." |
Zovex
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:05:14 -
[1115] - Quote
I support this idea/change.
I've bought and sold over 50 toons on the bazaar.
This is just another way to advance the game.
+1 |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3520
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:05:53 -
[1116] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:u3pog wrote:Don't forget people on the forums are actually a small percentage of the whole player base, so whether we approve or disapprove this idea, we do not speak for all of them. We are expressing our little, humble opinion. I don't think CSM can speak for us too. Sure they are our voice in CCP, but they are not our mind. The fact that I voted for someone doesn't mean that he/she always expresses my opinion.
If CCP has doubts about this after reading the thread, I suggest a poll to all players, maybe shown in the launcher or something. If not, they could "polish" this idea based on feedback and then release it.
it takes a lot more than the usual forum crowd to hit 55+ pages in a day. although how many are alt posts from forum regulars I couldn't say. but I do imagine this kinda news spreads fast and gets a lot of people that don't usually post to say something.
And in sheer blinding ignorance too.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:06:27 -
[1117] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:darkchild's corpse wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:This isn't taking ANYTHING away from anyone, it's only giving more to those who don't have. this is (more or less) true but not the point. i think many ppl in here forget that something like this will also be possible with the new thing: imagine you are camped inside a station with a few ppl and noone of you can use jammers for example. or a logistic or whatever you would need to win. usually you would have to buy the skill and train it until you are good enough. the other option would be to buy a character who can already use/fly it. none of these solutions works instantly. but if you are rich, you can simply buy skillpoints instantly and turn the whole situation. and this is one example where this system would give more to those who don't have wich is just not right. That makes some assumptions about how this works: a) it's available where you are docked in sufficient quantities to meet your immediate need or b) it's on contact and redeemable anywhere or c) you already had the free SP from the purchase already applied If it requires the first case, which one would hope it will, it's no different then having a mod you need in station for purchase when you have an immediate need.
true but you were always able to buy it elsewhere and haul it with an alt. but to my understanding the point of skillpoints in general is that not every player is meant to do anything anytime. you have to spend time to learn something. this would no longer be the case. |
Soltys
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:06:33 -
[1118] - Quote
Menkary Hardluck wrote:Oh God, no. Please no. Training up a character is supposed to be hard. The choices you make in training are not supposed to be easy. It is supposed to be something you have to very carefully plan. I don't want to see EVE as pay-to-win.
Which part of training character is in any way or form related to being hard ? And which choices are difficult to make ?
Come on ... |
PANZER1233000
SUPREME LEAGUE KILLER Dream Citizens
33
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:07:51 -
[1119] - Quote
5-10k online in last summer? CCP again make blog about micro transaction? Players need destroy jita monument for stop idiot developers? **** storm can destroy Iceland CCP STOP IT!!! And there my gold svipul, premium +50% loot and bounty, and gold ammo +50% tracking and damage? |
Shinjou Hanabi
CLOUD TEMPLE Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:08:05 -
[1120] - Quote
am i undertood wring or it's really about trading SP? maybe i understood wrong because my English is bad |
|
Doc Hyland
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:08:08 -
[1121] - Quote
This is a terrible idea.
Look, if you want to change the Character Bazaar... then change the Character Bazaar. What you're doing is something else entirely.
Do this:
Have an in-game UI (like the one used for Industry/Blueprints). If the seller followed the rules exactly, he can click on "Sell this Character on the Bazaar." It can be an auction, or a "buy it now" style. Seller gets to choose how much isk, etc etc. One of the requirements should be an alternate character where the ISK would go when the character is sold. People can browse through all the characters for sale.
Once the seller clicks, "Sell Me!" it logs the seller out and the character is unavailable to you. Once somebody buys it in-game, the character is automatically transferred to the buyer's account (like when somebody buys plex - they redeem it) and the ISK is transferred to the character the seller selected as the receiver. Done. Simple.
As far as changing the name and looks... too bad. In EVE, you're the character, not yourself. The great benefit of this game is that the characters are static. I never have to worry about an old friend changing their name and disappearing. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
78
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:08:53 -
[1122] - Quote
This is worse than thousand dollar jeans. CCP |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3520
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:09:18 -
[1123] - Quote
Draugo Rana wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Menkary Hardluck wrote:Oh God, no. Please no. Training up a character is supposed to be hard. The choices you make in training are not supposed to be easy. It is supposed to be something you have to very carefully plan. I don't want to see EVE as pay-to-win. Another player ignorant of the character bazaar. Another player who can't be bothered to actually read some of the previous responses addressing the point why the existence of a character bazaar is not really an excuse to making things worse.
What, a player can side step training by going to the character bazaar with a load of ISK. They can get that ISK by selling PLEX in game.
Further, if a character does buy an SP packet, how is it any less "hard" to figure out where to allocate those SP?
That is the only hard thing about training, the actual acquisition of SP is dead easy.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:09:44 -
[1124] - Quote
darkchild's corpse wrote:true but you were always able to buy it elsewhere and haul it with an alt. but to my understanding the point of skillpoints in general is that not every player is meant to do anything anytime. you have to spend time to learn something. this would no longer be the case. How much SP do you think qualifies that statement of doing anything, and how trivial do you think obtaining that would be with the suggested system? |
Grorious Reader
Mongorian Horde
37
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:10:06 -
[1125] - Quote
This system is better than the character bazaar. It does nothing significant that the character bazaar doesn't already allow. Players can already buy skill points!. That's what buying a character on the bazaar is. This is not a new game mechanic. It's a rework of an existing one. I don't know why you "omg no lol terrible idea CCP" idiots can't grasp that. Just because it comes in the form of a full character does not mean it isn't buying skill points. This system is just making it more accessible. And honestly, who gives a crap if you can fly a capital ship sooner than you normally would. It's still the same capital ship anyone who spent the time to train it themselves is flying. You just paid way more for it.
I assume the character bazaar would go away if this system went in place.
The only problem I foresee is pricing. Usage buy richer players for training alts could price actual new players out of the market.
For some perspective on the diminishing returns aspect. An 80mil SP character would have to buy over a year worth of SP just to do Fighters V. That's just that one level of that one skill, not any prereqs for it. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
597
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:10:48 -
[1126] - Quote
Please make ISK perchasing and RMT legal as well. That would round the circle. |
Nicholas Vierra
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:12:04 -
[1127] - Quote
Going to throw in my two cents here, This is not a good Idea in my opinion. This will unbalance the current skill system, as it gives both High SP characters and Low SP Characters the ability to pay real world money to increase their skill level, possibly through PLEX Transactions then ISK transactions, almost creating a Pay to win scenario.
For new players you should instead offer them the option of purchasing a starter pack that contains a training speed bonus that lasts 3 months, and can only be activated within the first six months of EVE.
For characters more than two years old, they should have the option to purchase a "Cognitive reset device" that allows players to change what skills their sp is allocated to. This would be a system that could only be used once each year after.
Otherwise, Leave the skill Point accumulation alone, or reduce training times on certain "Core" Skills that every character needs to train. Possibly add additional implants that increase skill accumulation beyond the +5 level that can be purchased through arum, or, maybe acquired through Drifter events?
I understand the desire to enhance the player experience in game, but I don't feel this is it. Possibly what you should look at instead is building on EVE's story, like you have with the Drifters and the Scope events, and as rewards, offer rare skill bonus packs. Perhaps random Player Specific events that pop up from time to time that offer you as a reward a skill point packet that you could either sell, or use, and your chances of being assigned one of these events increase based on the amount of time you spend active in space. Something perhaps a bit more immersive than your standard mission, and more involved. In other words, a special sort of reward for active playtime, instead of passive playtime.
As for this Character Bazaar, It is not a service I see myself using, but it is great to have all the same. and who knows? I may decide to trade in one of my old PI Characters. Eve Changes, People change, and giving players the freedom to change their characters the same way they have changed may be a benefit. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
170
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:12:45 -
[1128] - Quote
Seems like this thread has gone downhill.. There were some good points made on the first 30 or so pages.
I like how people keep simply stating character bazaar as an argument for implementing this idea. The character bazaar and this proposal are two completely separate things. Getting unallocated SP is of many magnitudes more desirable than purchasing a character from the bazaar.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Stragak
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:14:44 -
[1129] - Quote
What is so hard about doing it for name changes etc. That is only given to you on character transactions that occur as a surcharge. Both parties would pay a transaction fee and makes it 'nearly' prohibitive of being abused with ~60 dollars if people are doing it to themselves. And if you do it and your accounts are linked you get flagged as 'formally known as'.
Between the $60 in charges excluding account charges I am sure we can find a middle ground.
"Oh look, the cat is sitting in the litter box and pooping over the side again" every time we go through these "rough patches".
In good humor, and slight annoyance,
Boiglio -á-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238130&p=82
|
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1314
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:15:11 -
[1130] - Quote
Nicholas Vierra wrote:For new players you should instead offer them the option of purchasing a starter pack that contains a training speed bonus that lasts 3 months, and can only be activated within the first six months of EVE.
Already in game with severe age restrictions: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cerebral_Accelerator
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
|
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3520
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:15:24 -
[1131] - Quote
Nicholas Vierra wrote:Going to throw in my two cents here, This is not a good Idea in my opinion. This will unbalance the current skill system, as it gives both High SP characters and Low SP Characters the ability to pay real world money to increase their skill level, possibly through PLEX Transactions then ISK transactions, almost creating a Pay to win scenario.
For new players you should instead offer them the option of purchasing a starter pack that contains a training speed bonus that lasts 3 months, and can only be activated within the first six months of EVE.
For characters more than two years old, they should have the option to purchase a "Cognitive reset device" that allows players to change what skills their sp is allocated to. This would be a system that could only be used once each year after.
Otherwise, Leave the skill Point accumulation alone, or reduce training times on certain "Core" Skills that every character needs to train. Possibly add additional implants that increase skill accumulation beyond the +5 level that can be purchased through arum, or, maybe acquired through Drifter events?
I understand the desire to enhance the player experience in game, but I don't feel this is it. Possibly what you should look at instead is building on EVE's story, like you have with the Drifters and the Scope events, and as rewards, offer rare skill bonus packs. Perhaps random Player Specific events that pop up from time to time that offer you as a reward a skill point packet that you could either sell, or use, and your chances of being assigned one of these events increase based on the amount of time you spend active in space. Something perhaps a bit more immersive than your standard mission, and more involved. In other words, a special sort of reward for active playtime, instead of passive playtime.
As for this Character Bazaar, It is not a service I see myself using, but it is great to have all the same. and who knows? I may decide to trade in one of my old PI Characters. Eve Changes, People change, and giving players the freedom to change their characters the same way they have changed may be a benefit.
I have 123 million SP currently. That means if I buy a 500,000 SP packet I get just 50,000 SP to allocate. It is generally a horrible deal unless I become grotesquely rich in game. I mean so rich I can throw away a trillion ISK and not even really notice. And even then going tot the character bazaar and buying a character with the skills I'd be getting via SP packets would be far, far more efficient ISK wise.
So, maybe you should try actually reading the dev blog first.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Skorpion Medion
Fink Operations The Volition Cult
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:15:45 -
[1132] - Quote
Nicholas Vierra wrote:Going to throw in my two cents here, This is not a good Idea in my opinion. This will unbalance the current skill system, as it gives both High SP characters and Low SP Characters the ability to pay real world money to increase their skill level, possibly through PLEX Transactions then ISK transactions, almost creating a Pay to win scenario.
For new players you should instead offer them the option of purchasing a starter pack that contains a training speed bonus that lasts 3 months, and can only be activated within the first six months of EVE.
For characters more than two years old, they should have the option to purchase a "Cognitive reset device" that allows players to change what skills their sp is allocated to. This would be a system that could only be used once each year after.
Otherwise, Leave the skill Point accumulation alone, or reduce training times on certain "Core" Skills that every character needs to train. Possibly add additional implants that increase skill accumulation beyond the +5 level that can be purchased through arum, or, maybe acquired through Drifter events?
I understand the desire to enhance the player experience in game, but I don't feel this is it. Possibly what you should look at instead is building on EVE's story, like you have with the Drifters and the Scope events, and as rewards, offer rare skill bonus packs. Perhaps random Player Specific events that pop up from time to time that offer you as a reward a skill point packet that you could either sell, or use, and your chances of being assigned one of these events increase based on the amount of time you spend active in space. Something perhaps a bit more immersive than your standard mission, and more involved. In other words, a special sort of reward for active playtime, instead of passive playtime.
As for this Character Bazaar, It is not a service I see myself using, but it is great to have all the same. and who knows? I may decide to trade in one of my old PI Characters. Eve Changes, People change, and giving players the freedom to change their characters the same way they have changed may be a benefit. best post Imho, alot of reasoning, I love the idea about Cognitive reset device, and the starter pack,
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Sarah Saoirse
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:16:17 -
[1133] - Quote
So far, depending on what the costs ultimately work out to for the skill extractors, this looks good - the resale value of high-SP characters is preserved, we gain a often-requested tool for SP reallocation so people stop complaining about the 5 million points of mining they have on their combat characters, and new pilots get a way to pick up SP faster.
The only real downside is the market for lower SP characters will vanish - so the industry of purpose built alts for sale is going to go away.
This would be a good opportunity to do something about attributes though, at the same time as this change goes into effect, or in the months before, as part of a complete overhaul.
|
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
439
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:16:31 -
[1134] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Please make ISK perchasing and RMT legal as well. That would round the circle. Purchasing ISK is already legal. Buy a PLEX, dump it into the market, and *POOF* you've got 1.2 bil.
Planning a trip to Thera? Check out http://eve-scout.com/ for a list of the current connections.
Once you've made your choice, join the EvE-Scout channel and request a scout to make sure your connection is clear!
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Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
103
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:16:39 -
[1135] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Delegate wrote: This has a potential to scale well beyond the current SP transfer via character bazaar. As such it has a substantially stronger pay-to-win taste to it than the character bazaar.. Suppose a packet cost 2 plex worth of AUR to make. Ok, now suppose it's a little bit less... where's the tipping point?
It's a wholly different market. Character bazaar involves large transactions (ISK-wise). That puts a limit to how far it can scale. The entry to the skill market can potentially be much easier. That market may, therefore, have a lot more participants, and in turn a lot higher SP volume (even if volume per participant is not large). And that could be very bad for the game. For example, a new player may find that a lot of his peers buy a rapid entry to the game, while he lags behind. Is that a positive new player experience? When a new FOTM goes online GÇô say t3 frigates GÇô a lot of early adopter might be those that bought needed skills from alt-producers ( explained alts providing the skill supply in my previous post). Is that a positive game experience? We talking fluid, pervasive skill market here. That's a ruthless monetization of the game. I am fine with paying double the current subscription level but not necessary fine with building my character in that kind of environment. And I have a lot of SP to train before I can call myself a vet. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3520
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:18:14 -
[1136] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Delegate wrote: This has a potential to scale well beyond the current SP transfer via character bazaar. As such it has a substantially stronger pay-to-win taste to it than the character bazaar.. Suppose a packet cost 2 plex worth of AUR to make. Ok, now suppose it's a little bit less... where's the tipping point? It's a wholly different market. Character bazaar involves large transactions (ISK-wise). That puts a limit to how far it can scale. The entry to the skill market can potentially be much easier. That market may, therefore, have a lot more participants, and in turn a lot higher SP volume (even if volume per participant is not large). And that could be very bad for the game. For example, a new player may find that a lot of his peers buy a rapid entry to the game, while he lags behind. Is that a positive new player experience? When a new FOTM goes online GÇô say t3 frigates GÇô a lot of early adopter might be those that bought needed skills from alt-producers ( explained alts providing the skill supply in my previous post). Is that a positive game experience? We talking fluid, pervasive skill market here. That's a ruthless monetization of the game. I am fine with paying double the current subscription level but not necessary fine with building my character in that kind of environment. And I have a lot of SP to train before I can call myself a vet.
Decreasing returns means scaling is NOT easy.
Holy ****, can't believe I had to explain that.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:18:58 -
[1137] - Quote
That may backfire so badly as it is now. I am a fan of cheating in clever ways, but damn, this Skill Pill thingy will transcend exploitations to a whole new level.
After the so called human traffic that is the Bazaar, where you sell not only skill, but a lot of people use the bazaar to a lot of other things, like amassing tons of specific kinds of alts, private sales for elegant corporation espionage, plain simple blobbing, alt hauling and what not. Now we may have yet one more venue of misleading the progression, time and identity bringing a whole new level of shame to the game.
By all means, introduce it right now, and the forums will burn.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9243
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:19:01 -
[1138] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Please make ISK perchasing and RMT legal as well. That would round the circle. CCP wrote: PLEX Store Buy PLEX, Use PLEX Services, Trade PLEX for ISK
You were saying?
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2075
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:20:04 -
[1139] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Those characters represent people. Eve wondered why none of them was sold? Because they are not commodities. People bond with their characters, with time and efforts which they had put in them and what those characters present.
But that even was not the main point of my post, that was just a simple example of chars not being commodities. The point is that this will have no real benefit for new players and plenty of side effects and. And that it is potentially great threat to EVE.
And if that`s all you had to say on my post then I congratulate you for 50 pages of trolling. Since you obviously have no intention to work/discuss on actual improvement of the game I suppose you are just trolling or you are working in the opposite direction of my intentions (improving the game), for any reason there might be.
Since most of other comments who are supporting this idea are alts, I am glad that community has strong vote for NO. Though I hope even more people states that this idea is ********, so CCP does a "reality check" and see in how wrong direction they are going and that they have to change their mindset and vision to actually improve the game for the sake of the game and players. The people would continue to persist if their characters were sold.
I support bettering the game, and making the character bazaar nightmare more fluid and more accessible is an unmitigated good.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
170
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:20:15 -
[1140] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:I have 123 million SP currently. That means if I buy a 500,000 SP packet I get just 50,000 SP to allocate. It is generally a horrible deal unless I become grotesquely rich in game. It is not the high SP characters that anyone with sense is really worried about. It is the day old newbies and alts that can effectively level up instantly to 50mil SP+.
Blizzard allowed characters to instantly level in WOW and we can all see how that turned out.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
|
SunPrice TheSun
Incursion Wolf
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:22:33 -
[1141] - Quote
I think this is a very good idea. Why ? This will interest more newbies into the game which is in turn very good for the health of EVE ! Most of new players quit cause of the difference levels, let's image how could a newbie compete with an 5 years playing EVE ? This will give them a chance to survive at last. SP means nothing cause it's the experience and knowledge make a victory ! Stop being selfish and think of a greater course guys !
Another thing is that this game is already PTW, you can buy a brand new character by Cash on ebay ... This content will give the older players to benefit from their unnessesary SP and help newbies catch up a little bit . |
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
692
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:23:00 -
[1142] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:I have 123 million SP currently. That means if I buy a 500,000 SP packet I get just 50,000 SP to allocate. It is generally a horrible deal unless I become grotesquely rich in game. It is not the high SP characters that anyone with sense is really worried about. It is the day old newbies and alts that can effectively level up instantly to 50mil SP+. Blizzard allowed characters to instantly level in WOW and we can all see how that turned out.
Yea but that game inherently sucks.
EvE is a great game not because of the way you acquire skill points, but because of the cut-throat nature of the game and the really intricate interactions you can have with others playing the game.
My being able to buy skill points to now fly a caldari battleship appropriately isn't going to detract from the nature of the game. If anything, it reinforces it by allowing me to fly a more expensive ship instead of having to wait 4 more months for all those skills to finally level where I can feel confident enough in my fitting ability to actually fly it, getting that ship into existence and available for you and your friends to try to blow up. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
130
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:23:05 -
[1143] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Aerasia wrote:I'm not convinced it will actually do anything as there is that fundamental requirement of spare SP to start the process.
I get the feeling this is going to find a blocker in that the main source of spare SP (veteran players) are either: A) Going to be very e-peen about their SP totals, and unwilling to give it up. B) Continually training alts for tasks instead of just junk training on their main, so they're not going to actually be able to skim off unused SP.
That being said, my only real complaint about the system itself is that it's founded on the assumption that SP is a necessary evil for the game. The character training currently intentionally fueling the character bazaar will likely end up being in part transitioned to this mechanic. I won't speculate on how well used it will be, but I don't see it going unused. If it's only repurposing the CB characters then impact is minimal. Same amount of SP on the market (less possibly, considering the proposed transfer tax). |
Chrome Veinss
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:23:14 -
[1144] - Quote
Doc Hyland wrote:This is a terrible idea.
Look, if you want to change the Character Bazaar... then change the Character Bazaar. What you're doing is something else entirely.
Do this:
Have an in-game UI (like the one used for Industry/Blueprints). If the seller followed the rules exactly, he can click on "Sell this Character on the Bazaar." It can be an auction, or a "buy it now" style. Seller gets to choose how much isk, etc etc. One of the requirements should be an alternate character where the ISK would go when the character is sold. People can browse through all the characters for sale.
Once the seller clicks, "Sell Me!" it logs the seller out and the character is unavailable to you. Once somebody buys it in-game, the character is automatically transferred to the buyer's account (like when somebody buys plex - they redeem it) and the ISK is transferred to the character the seller selected as the receiver. Done. Simple.
As far as changing the name and looks... too bad. In EVE, you're the character, not yourself. The great benefit of this game is that the characters are static. I never have to worry about an old friend changing their name and disappearing.
Umm what if your old friend sells his character and buys another one? |
Emileon
Stepping Stone Industries Gentlemen's.Parlor
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:23:17 -
[1145] - Quote
Wow..Just wow,
As a player since '09, I've seen this game go through many changes and this by far would be one of the worst if not the worst that CCP has ever come up with!!
Does anyone remember "Greed is good" and the burn jita event it spawned? At the time EVE was a really healthy game and even though it lost some players it was able to rebound. This is not the case this time around, EVE cannot afford that type of mistake again, but yet it seems like you guys are trying it anyway.
If this goes through the development stage into the game, it will kill the game once and for all.
CCP, EVE is already hurting and player retention is not that great, so what do you do? Go ahead and come up with a horrible idea and the screw over the players still keeping EVE going!
This will in effect take yrs off of people's playing efforts and since SP is an integral part of the game, it will push older players out of the game in record numbers.
If you really don't want EVE around anymore, just turn it off, don't make it go through a Hollywood death scene first!
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:26:17 -
[1146] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:I have 123 million SP currently. That means if I buy a 500,000 SP packet I get just 50,000 SP to allocate. It is generally a horrible deal unless I become grotesquely rich in game. It is not the high SP characters that anyone with sense is really worried about. It is the day old newbies and alts that can effectively level up instantly to 50mil SP+. Blizzard allowed characters to instantly level in WOW and we can all see how that turned out. The wow instant levelling isn't the same as it doesn't require anyone to give up existing levels and this doesn't bring you anywhere near max for a single purchase. Though even if they did it should be a non-issue unless you place the whole of your worth on your SP.
Beyond that, needing 122 packets should dampen any trend towards instant 50mill SP characters. |
Sella Lesbon
Three-legged Dogs Indomitable Intentions
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:26:36 -
[1147] - Quote
Good. I like it. Don't listen to these oldies that keep blocking this game from evolving.
> Never do something to someone that you wouldn't like to be done to yourself.
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Shinjou Hanabi
CLOUD TEMPLE Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:27:11 -
[1148] - Quote
well... i don't think it is a good idea, bro |
Rikki Bigg
EVE University Ivy League
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:27:51 -
[1149] - Quote
EVE Online has such a depth of variability, which makes it popular for the individuals that play it.
This change being discussed, does much to reduce the complexity of the game.
This is a bad thing.
Reduce the steep learning curve, make the game more player friendly, change things to make the game attractive to future players while at the same time keep retained players engaged. But do not reduce the complexity of the game.
|
Maraner
The Executioners Shadow Cartel
319
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:28:04 -
[1150] - Quote
What the ever **** **** is this ****.
Did someone just take a big dump of **** to the brain. Maybe they should extract their own packet and flush it now before the rage monster takes full flight.
This is flat out pay to win.
NO NO NO NO
there... opinion given. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:29:11 -
[1151] - Quote
Rikki Bigg wrote:EVE Online has such a depth of variability, which makes it popular for the individuals that play it.
This change being discussed, does much to reduce the complexity of the game.
This is a bad thing.
Reduce the steep learning curve, make the game more player friendly, change things to make the game attractive to future players while at the same time keep retained players engaged. But do not reduce the complexity of the game. No complexity is lost from this idea in any way shape or form.
|
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1316
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:29:17 -
[1152] - Quote
Sella Lesbon wrote:Good. I like it. Don't listen to these oldies that keep blocking this game from evolving.
Oi! Try to remember these "oldies" are the ones who kept EVE going from it's release to now. Don't be disrespectful of them or that fact.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
|
Stragak
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:29:36 -
[1153] - Quote
SunPrice TheSun wrote: I think this is a very good idea. Why ? This will interest more newbies into the game which is in turn very good for the health of EVE ! Most of new players quit cause of the difference levels, let's image how could a newbie compete with an 5 years playing EVE ? This will give them a chance to survive at last. SP means nothing cause it's the experience and knowledge make a victory ! Stop being selfish and think of a greater course guys !
Another thing is that this game is already PTW, you can buy a brand new character by Cash on ebay ... This content will give the older players to benefit from their unnessesary SP and help newbies catch up a little bit . They can catch up they buy a plex 'giving money to CCP', sell it 'giving game time to people and leveling out the plex market', and buy a character 'that would otherwise never undock'
The main issue people have and have ALWAYS had is putting their own touch on the character to make it THEIR character. This normally boils down to the name of said character.
As always your first character is your first love it would be nice to see that alts bought are the same. Me personally I HAVE BOUGHT ON THE SITE 2 characters. They are just alts. But I DO have {main alts} if you will. That I myself have trained.
"Oh look, the cat is sitting in the litter box and pooping over the side again" every time we go through these "rough patches".
In good humor, and slight annoyance,
Boiglio -á-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238130&p=82
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2075
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:29:42 -
[1154] - Quote
Emileon wrote:Wow..Just wow,
As a player since '09, I've seen this game go through many changes and this by far would be one of the worst if not the worst that CCP has ever come up with!!
Does anyone remember "Greed is good" and the burn jita event it spawned? At the time EVE was a really healthy game and even though it lost some players it was able to rebound. This is not the case this time around, EVE cannot afford that type of mistake again, but yet it seems like you guys are trying it anyway.
If this goes through the development stage into the game, it will kill the game once and for all.
CCP, EVE is already hurting and player retention is not that great, so what do you do? Go ahead and come up with a horrible idea and the screw over the players still keeping EVE going!
This will in effect take yrs off of people's playing efforts and since SP is an integral part of the game, it will push older players out of the game in record numbers.
If you really don't want EVE around anymore, just turn it off, don't make it go through a Hollywood death scene first!
What's horrible about being able to sell some of your SP or buy some of someone else's?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9243
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:29:43 -
[1155] - Quote
Emileon wrote: This will in effect take yrs off of people's playing efforts and since SP is an integral part of the game,
SP is an integral part of boosting your ego with an Eveboard link. Period.
Taking the time to learn to use those SP is the real trick. You can't buy that.
Like I just said. Stop crying and start dreaming about how much fun you are going to have ganking the fools that think like you and so many others in here do.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2075
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:30:31 -
[1156] - Quote
Maraner wrote:What the ever **** **** is this ****.
Did someone just take a big dump of **** to the brain. Maybe they should extract their own packet and flush it now before the rage monster takes full flight.
This is flat out pay to win.
NO NO NO NO
there... opinion given. It's not.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:30:44 -
[1157] - Quote
Maraner wrote:What the ever **** **** is this ****.
Did someone just take a big dump of **** to the brain. Maybe they should extract their own packet and flush it now before the rage monster takes full flight.
This is flat out pay to win.
NO NO NO NO
there... opinion given. So having more SP is winning? Also how did the Bazaar not violate this? |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2595
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:32:00 -
[1158] - Quote
I'm joining in the chorus of No's on this. I think it needs to be said loud and clear that this is a bad plan It is a massive step towards a P2W environment, and is totally a pay for free SP gimmick.
The character bazaar required the character actually to be around the correct amount of time. This allows you to make a 1 day old character to 50 million SP. It also allows you to 'recycle' ganking characters by stripping the relevant SP off them, then you just let the -10 alt languish and let the account lapse while moving all that SP onto a brand new character who isn't -10.
The abuses of this to get around existing rules are myriad, the benefits basically none. Do NOT do this. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:32:09 -
[1159] - Quote
Ok to sum it up.
They want to introduce new feature which should help new players.
So when the new player comes he finds out that beside subscription he should spent 5x-10x that money to "get it going". Meaning that since the start he does not get the EVE. Eve is not about speeding things up and having it easy way. When that reality hits them a lot will just quit, since they were not prepared for that.
After that turbo start he realizes the game is quite slow unless he wants to keep spending more and more money to speed it until he gets comfortable with sp. Pity that in the most cases he will not have any idea what he needs/wants. Because that is what you learn while your skills are training. There is no Instant Start Up Course to teach them everything in couple of hours. Then disappointment comes. Guess what, 99% will quit. You will make them spend extra cash and give them false image of the game which will not lead to anything.
So the group this should help the most will actually have the least benefit of it. Ie the whole idea is a giant fail. There are people mentioning alliances who will buy sp to boost news etc. How many alliances accepts new players? How many puts effort in them? Eve Uni cannot fund something like this, other alliances/corps might eventually use it to affect some battle doctrine they are using, but there is low possibility due to high cost as alliances tend to have players with more sp.
There is definitely need to find a way to attract and keep new players, but this is not the proper one.
Meanwhile, some older players will utilize this function to spec new alts. Also some rich old players could try to get on top of total sp list and take off someone who committed himself for years to the game to be where he is. During that plenty of older/vet players will quit, disappointed in CCP. They will not be disappointed because "some newbs are overtaking them in sp". Let`s be realistic, there will be only minor amount of those who will spend a lot of cash to get high sp just for the sake of sp. There might be couple of contenders on top spots, i know some people can afford spending thousands of usd/eur on the game if they find that idea (to be top 1) in sp interesting.
People will be disappointed as they will see CCP making great mistakes. Changing FUNDAMENTALS of the game for something new, something they cannot even assume the result of, without considering side effects and without caring about their customers feelings. Meaning that if they are ready to do it once, they will do it again and people will not commit their time as they cannot know what to expect next in the long run. People will be disappointed as they will lose faith in CCP and company`s vision of the game. No one is going to trust with his money company which is inconsistent and on whom`s ideas and vision they can lean on or see themselves be part of.
So, even though some people have personal interests to be able to fix the mistakes they did (boofkinhoo, cry me a river about wrongly put 2mil sp) or to get an alt easier without being able to look at the whole picture as they can look up only on their own asses, this whole idea will strike whole player base in much worse sense.
I hope I have drawn it nicely for everyone.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1869
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:34:16 -
[1160] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Nicholas Vierra wrote:Going to throw in my two cents here, This is not a good Idea in my opinion. This will unbalance the current skill system, as it gives both High SP characters and Low SP Characters the ability to pay real world money to increase their skill level, possibly through PLEX Transactions then ISK transactions, almost creating a Pay to win scenario.
For new players you should instead offer them the option of purchasing a starter pack that contains a training speed bonus that lasts 3 months, and can only be activated within the first six months of EVE.
For characters more than two years old, they should have the option to purchase a "Cognitive reset device" that allows players to change what skills their sp is allocated to. This would be a system that could only be used once each year after.
Otherwise, Leave the skill Point accumulation alone, or reduce training times on certain "Core" Skills that every character needs to train. Possibly add additional implants that increase skill accumulation beyond the +5 level that can be purchased through arum, or, maybe acquired through Drifter events?
I understand the desire to enhance the player experience in game, but I don't feel this is it. Possibly what you should look at instead is building on EVE's story, like you have with the Drifters and the Scope events, and as rewards, offer rare skill bonus packs. Perhaps random Player Specific events that pop up from time to time that offer you as a reward a skill point packet that you could either sell, or use, and your chances of being assigned one of these events increase based on the amount of time you spend active in space. Something perhaps a bit more immersive than your standard mission, and more involved. In other words, a special sort of reward for active playtime, instead of passive playtime.
As for this Character Bazaar, It is not a service I see myself using, but it is great to have all the same. and who knows? I may decide to trade in one of my old PI Characters. Eve Changes, People change, and giving players the freedom to change their characters the same way they have changed may be a benefit. I have 123 million SP currently. That means if I buy a 500,000 SP packet I get just 50,000 SP to allocate. It is generally a horrible deal unless I become grotesquely rich in game. I mean so rich I can throw away a trillion ISK and not even really notice. And even then going to the character bazaar and buying a character with the skills I'd be getting via SP packets would be far, far more efficient ISK wise. So, maybe you should try actually reading the dev blog first.
To be fair to him. I did math out how much it would take me to Max out my Main. It was only about 1.5T. I could do that a few times.
I wouldn't because I barely have stuff to train now but it might be fun for laughs.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.
Creator of Burn Jita
Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
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Acaia Saraki
Rogue Occupation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:34:39 -
[1161] - Quote
I'd like to open with a few simple statements. I'm new to the game, pretty much. I haven't put in any of the hard time that every single hard core vet that's here has. I haven't ever posted to the forums before and I'm really no one of consequence. With that out of the way. Maybe what I have to say will have more of an impact.
As a new player, the biggest thing that irks me is that I have to spend countless real life hours waiting for next skill to finish training. Then in order for it to get better, I have to spend days. Then I have to spend weeks. Then afterwards it's months. All for what? A video game of internet spaceships. That's irritating to no end. And here's why: Every single person that's been in the game for 6 months before me views me as a prey item. Every player with more time than that views me as worthless. In order to be considered effective, skills that are absolutely required for me to have to be useful to any of the large and respected corporations in game. I have to spend a year working alone or working with smaller corporations while at the mercy of all the bigger names around me. That's a year of being told "haha, no, sorry. No newbs." everywhere I go. That's a year of being hilariously and hopelessly out gunned. For every single new player that does manage to trickle into this game, it's a game of forever catch up. A game that no new player will ever win. Or finish for that matter. While all the veterans sit fat and happy with mountains of ISK and SP, every newbro struggles to even begin the climb. So, rant over. Anyway. As a new player. I'm all for this. Because it will allow me to grab a couple of SP packets, suck them dry and be able to instantly become more viable for corporations that suit me. This change will allow me to become a lot more useful in contribution, content creation and viability in anything my particular corp needs me to do. I won't have to wait 8 days anymore to train a support skill that's barring me from getting into making myself self sufficient. I'll now be able to simply plug it straight in and get to the more important factor that's really at stake here: Enjoying the game. I don't enjoy the game right now as much as I want to because like I said above. I'm the baitfish in the lagoon filled with barracuda. With this change, I can instantly become a barracuda myself and level the playing field.
That's my 2 cents. I'm all for this. It'll actually assist genuine new players entering the game for the first time. Or help bring back new players that were discouraged because of time constraints. No one wants to spend years waiting to enjoy a video game their way. No one wants to spend their entire career playing the role of the baitfish either. So please. Make it so. Put more thought into benefiting new players and balancing it for the vets and adding mechanics that would nerf it into the ground for those who would abuse this simply for the sake of griefing the new players. Make this a thing please. |
Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
188
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:35:01 -
[1162] - Quote
I love how many people are just pretending the character bazaar doesn't exist. I also love how CSM members keep pandering to those people while also utterly failing to construct an argument that makes ANY sense.
You can trade Cash for ISK for SP, RIGHT NOW. This change only brings SP sale to the masses, and lets me get a friend or corp mate into a doctrine that much sooner. Good change CCP.
Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur.-á
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Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
103
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:35:17 -
[1163] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Delegate wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Delegate wrote: This has a potential to scale well beyond the current SP transfer via character bazaar. As such it has a substantially stronger pay-to-win taste to it than the character bazaar.. Suppose a packet cost 2 plex worth of AUR to make. Ok, now suppose it's a little bit less... where's the tipping point? It's a wholly different market. Character bazaar involves large transactions (ISK-wise). That puts a limit to how far it can scale. The entry to the skill market can potentially be much easier. That market may, therefore, have a lot more participants, and in turn a lot higher SP volume (even if volume per participant is not large). And that could be very bad for the game. For example, a new player may find that a lot of his peers buy a rapid entry to the game, while he lags behind. Is that a positive new player experience? When a new FOTM goes online GÇô say t3 frigates GÇô a lot of early adopter might be those that bought needed skills from alt-producers ( explained alts providing the skill supply in my previous post). Is that a positive game experience? We talking fluid, pervasive skill market here. That's a ruthless monetization of the game. I am fine with paying double the current subscription level but not necessary fine with building my character in that kind of environment. And I have a lot of SP to train before I can call myself a vet. Decreasing returns means scaling is NOT easy. Holy ****, can't believe I had to explain that.
I advice you to carefully read my posts again. I wrote about how far that _market_ can scale. Also, if you want to make a point, place put some effort into it, including justification. I'm not going to waste time on pointless word throwing. |
Stragak
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:35:24 -
[1164] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Maraner wrote:What the ever **** **** is this ****.
Did someone just take a big dump of **** to the brain. Maybe they should extract their own packet and flush it now before the rage monster takes full flight.
This is flat out pay to win.
NO NO NO NO
there... opinion given. So having more SP is winning? Also how did the Bazaar not violate this? Because the character was always paid for it also stemmed the tide of ebay. CCP is fine with it as long as they get a chunk of the pie. Same thing about Plex as well it stemmed the tide of RMT and gave 'options' to players with CCP taking a about a $5 cut of the pie.
"Oh look, the cat is sitting in the litter box and pooping over the side again" every time we go through these "rough patches".
In good humor, and slight annoyance,
Boiglio -á-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238130&p=82
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Emileon
Stepping Stone Industries Gentlemen's.Parlor
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:36:23 -
[1165] - Quote
Querns wrote:Emileon wrote:Wow..Just wow,
As a player since '09, I've seen this game go through many changes and this by far would be one of the worst if not the worst that CCP has ever come up with!!
Does anyone remember "Greed is good" and the burn jita event it spawned? At the time EVE was a really healthy game and even though it lost some players it was able to rebound. This is not the case this time around, EVE cannot afford that type of mistake again, but yet it seems like you guys are trying it anyway.
If this goes through the development stage into the game, it will kill the game once and for all.
CCP, EVE is already hurting and player retention is not that great, so what do you do? Go ahead and come up with a horrible idea and the screw over the players still keeping EVE going!
This will in effect take yrs off of people's playing efforts and since SP is an integral part of the game, it will push older players out of the game in record numbers.
If you really don't want EVE around anymore, just turn it off, don't make it go through a Hollywood death scene first!
What's horrible about being able to sell some of your SP or buy some of someone else's?
I also have sp that I really don't use or need anymore but it was paid for and trained by either plex or cash and took years to accumulate. This is nothing more than a basic pay to play with cash going to CCP for the privilege. This will fundamentally change the game to the point where its a point and shoot game with no background or history.
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atif09
THE THIRTEEN SAMURAI The Old Guard.
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:36:24 -
[1166] - Quote
Really rubbing me the wrong way ccp
hope this is a joke |
Shadowfoot
The Cult of Personality The Blood Covenant
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:37:06 -
[1167] - Quote
Best news I have read so far. Can finetune my character.
My wallet is ready. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:37:22 -
[1168] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:I'm joining in the chorus of No's on this. I think it needs to be said loud and clear that this is a bad plan It is a massive step towards a P2W environment, and is totally a pay for free SP gimmick.
The character bazaar required the character actually to be around the correct amount of time. This allows you to make a 1 day old character to 50 million SP. It also allows you to 'recycle' ganking characters by stripping the relevant SP off them, then you just let the -10 alt languish and let the account lapse while moving all that SP onto a brand new character who isn't -10.
The abuses of this to get around existing rules are myriad, the benefits basically none. Do NOT do this. This idea requires characters to be around the correct amount of time to generate SP, just the necessarily the character the SP ends up in use on. Someone has to generate the 61.5 mill SP it takes to make the packets needed to create a 50mill SP 1 day old character.
And as far as recycling alt SP, that's a ~2.5 month unrecoverable training for each cycled character as the minimum to use the extractor is 5mill SP.
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:37:54 -
[1169] - Quote
Querns wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Those characters represent people. Eve wondered why none of them was sold? Because they are not commodities. People bond with their characters, with time and efforts which they had put in them and what those characters present.
But that even was not the main point of my post, that was just a simple example of chars not being commodities. The point is that this will have no real benefit for new players and plenty of side effects and. And that it is potentially great threat to EVE.
And if that`s all you had to say on my post then I congratulate you for 50 pages of trolling. Since you obviously have no intention to work/discuss on actual improvement of the game I suppose you are just trolling or you are working in the opposite direction of my intentions (improving the game), for any reason there might be.
Since most of other comments who are supporting this idea are alts, I am glad that community has strong vote for NO. Though I hope even more people states that this idea is ********, so CCP does a "reality check" and see in how wrong direction they are going and that they have to change their mindset and vision to actually improve the game for the sake of the game and players. The people would continue to persist if their characters were sold. I support bettering the game, and making the character bazaar nightmare more fluid and more accessible is an unmitigated good.
Of course they would, but they are not selling them anyway. Because they are not commodities to the most of the people.
Except it does not benefit new players, which is original idea? Awesome idea then.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:38:51 -
[1170] - Quote
Stragak wrote:Because the character was always paid for it also stemmed the tide of ebay. CCP is fine with it as long as they get a chunk of the pie. Same thing about Plex as well it stemmed the tide of RMT and gave 'options' to players with CCP taking a about a $5 cut of the pie. And the character originating the SP still needs to be paid for, as does the means of extracting the SP. So what's the issue?
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2075
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:39:27 -
[1171] - Quote
Emileon wrote:Querns wrote: What's horrible about being able to sell some of your SP or buy some of someone else's?
I also have sp that I really don't use or need anymore but it was paid for and trained by either plex or cash and took years to accumulate. This is nothing more than a basic pay to play with cash going to CCP for the privilege. This will fundamentally change the game to the point where its a point and shoot game with no background or history. If it was going to do that, it would have happened a long time ago care of the Character Bazaar.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
130
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:39:58 -
[1172] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:After that turbo start he realizes the game is quite slow unless he wants to keep spending more and more money to speed it until he gets comfortable with sp. Pity that in the most cases he will not have any idea what he needs/wants. Because that is what you learn while your skills are training.
...
There is definitely need to find a way to attract and keep new players, but this is not the proper one. Maybe they could start with doing something about the fact it apparently takes several months to even figure out what you want to put your skills into?
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:39:59 -
[1173] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:I have 123 million SP currently. That means if I buy a 500,000 SP packet I get just 50,000 SP to allocate. It is generally a horrible deal unless I become grotesquely rich in game. It is not the high SP characters that anyone with sense is really worried about. It is the day old newbies and alts that can effectively level up instantly to 50mil SP+. Blizzard allowed characters to instantly level in WOW and we can all see how that turned out. Yea but that game inherently sucks. EvE is a great game not because of the way you acquire skill points, but because of the cut-throat nature of the game and the really intricate interactions you can have with others playing the game. My being able to buy skill points to now fly a caldari battleship appropriately isn't going to detract from the nature of the game. If anything, it reinforces it by allowing me to fly a more expensive ship instead of having to wait 4 more months for all those skills to finally level where I can feel confident enough in my fitting ability to actually fly it, getting that ship into existence and available for you and your friends to try to blow up.
Cut throat nature of the game but lets make it easy? Isn`t that a bit of a contradiction?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
439
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:40:51 -
[1174] - Quote
You know, the more I think about this, the less I dislike it. I still hope that there are faster decays in return, and I want to see a hard cap, but I'm actually warming up to the idea. The biggest concern in my mind right now is how much it'll cost. Too low, and it'll be abused to Hell and back. Too high and it'll be useless.
Planning a trip to Thera? Check out http://eve-scout.com/ for a list of the current connections.
Once you've made your choice, join the EvE-Scout channel and request a scout to make sure your connection is clear!
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2075
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:40:54 -
[1175] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote: The people would continue to persist if their characters were sold.
I support bettering the game, and making the character bazaar nightmare more fluid and more accessible is an unmitigated good.
Of course they would, but they are not selling them anyway. Because they are not commodities to the most of the people. Except it does not benefit new players, which is original idea? Awesome idea then. The fact that it didn't happen with such a small sample set is telling of absolutely nothing.
The diminishing returns mechanic supports low-SP players more than it does high-SP players.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Jitarunner Transport
Jitarunner Transport Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:41:07 -
[1176] - Quote
pay MONEY for get stronger fast! no MONEY? go **** yourself!
what a brilliant idea to make users open their wallet |
Vlade Randal
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:41:20 -
[1177] - Quote
-10
This is a terrible idea |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2075
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:42:02 -
[1178] - Quote
Winter Archipelago wrote:You know, the more I think about this, the less I dislike it. I still hope that there are faster decays in return, and I want to see a hard cap, but I'm actually warming up to the idea. The biggest concern in my mind right now is how much it'll cost. Too low, and it'll be abused to Hell and back. Too high and it'll be useless. What I don't get is the "abuse" angle. What's the abuse? Goosing your SP to maximum doesn't somehow also afford you the ships or the real-life skill to use them well.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3520
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:44:17 -
[1179] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:I have 123 million SP currently. That means if I buy a 500,000 SP packet I get just 50,000 SP to allocate. It is generally a horrible deal unless I become grotesquely rich in game. It is not the high SP characters that anyone with sense is really worried about. It is the day old newbies and alts that can effectively level up instantly to 50mil SP+. Blizzard allowed characters to instantly level in WOW and we can all see how that turned out.
You should go back and re-read the post I was responding too, it mentioned older players.
And getting a 50 million SP character will cost ALOT using this method. You'd need 14 PLEX (at the current price). You'd probably get a much better deal at the character bazaar--i.e. a 54 million SP character which has been with use for years.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:45:04 -
[1180] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:After that turbo start he realizes the game is quite slow unless he wants to keep spending more and more money to speed it until he gets comfortable with sp. Pity that in the most cases he will not have any idea what he needs/wants. Because that is what you learn while your skills are training.
...
There is definitely need to find a way to attract and keep new players, but this is not the proper one. Maybe they could start with doing something about the fact it apparently takes several months to even figure out what you want to put your skills into?
Then it would not be EVE, so there are plenty others game to try out for that.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Stragak
21
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Posted - 2015.10.16 00:46:08 -
[1181] - Quote
At this point WTF is the point of even going to EVE Vegas? Really?
It is really just a meeting about how you guys 'were' going to un- **** eve.
Then you deliver this bomb shell.
For constructive feedback see first post 1127ish range... that number being said piece.
"Oh look, the cat is sitting in the litter box and pooping over the side again" every time we go through these "rough patches".
In good humor, and slight annoyance,
Boiglio -á-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238130&p=82
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:46:55 -
[1182] - Quote
Querns wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote: The people would continue to persist if their characters were sold.
I support bettering the game, and making the character bazaar nightmare more fluid and more accessible is an unmitigated good.
Of course they would, but they are not selling them anyway. Because they are not commodities to the most of the people. Except it does not benefit new players, which is original idea? Awesome idea then. The fact that it didn't happen with such a small sample set is telling of absolutely nothing. The diminishing returns mechanic supports low-SP players more than it does high-SP players.
Please read the post where i summed it up. Diminishing return mechanic does support low sp players more than high sp. But low sp players cannot afford it without spending a lot of rl cash. So it is fail.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Sella Lesbon
Three-legged Dogs Indomitable Intentions
1
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Posted - 2015.10.16 00:47:24 -
[1183] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:Sella Lesbon wrote:Good. I like it. Don't listen to these oldies that keep blocking this game from evolving. Oi! Try to remember these "oldies" are the ones who kept EVE going from it's release to now. Don't be disrespectful of them or that fact.
didn't mean to be disrespectful. I think its a good idea as it doesn't create something out of thin air
> Never do something to someone that you wouldn't like to be done to yourself.
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Fox Spooky Mulder
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:48:34 -
[1184] - Quote
There are two ways something like this can/would work.
1) Make it so that skill point reallocation can only be done to a character and NOT sold/traded.
2) Put a hard limit on the number of GÇÿTransneural Skill PacketsGÇÖ that can be made and/or used in a month/year per ACCOUNT.
3) Somewhat unrelated notes: A) Give us the ability to change the Gender of a character during a resculpt.
B) Give us the ability to change the name of a character [possibly keeping some record of past name available in game] and again limiting it to a certain number of times it can be done per account say per year. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3521
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:49:08 -
[1185] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote: The people would continue to persist if their characters were sold.
I support bettering the game, and making the character bazaar nightmare more fluid and more accessible is an unmitigated good.
Of course they would, but they are not selling them anyway. Because they are not commodities to the most of the people. Except it does not benefit new players, which is original idea? Awesome idea then. The fact that it didn't happen with such a small sample set is telling of absolutely nothing. The diminishing returns mechanic supports low-SP players more than it does high-SP players. Please read the post where i summed it up. Diminishing return mechanic does support low sp players more than high sp. But low sp players cannot afford it without spending a lot of rl cash. So it is fail.
I don't think you understand diminishing returns then.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1317
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:49:41 -
[1186] - Quote
Sella Lesbon wrote:Maximus Aerelius wrote:Sella Lesbon wrote:Good. I like it. Don't listen to these oldies that keep blocking this game from evolving. Oi! Try to remember these "oldies" are the ones who kept EVE going from it's release to now. Don't be disrespectful of them or that fact. didn't mean to be disrespectful. I think its a good idea as it doesn't create something out of thin air
Appreciate the above. "Oldies\Bittervets" get grief all over and to be honest it makes us bitter lol.
Yeah, at least they got that bit right on the thin air part. That's about it really.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
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Indy Rider
Sudden Buggery
24
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Posted - 2015.10.16 00:50:52 -
[1187] - Quote
I like the idea, logical extension to the character bazaar - you can already change isk for SP.
WTS Mining Skills. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
795
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:53:21 -
[1188] - Quote
Querns wrote:What I don't get is the "abuse" angle. What's the abuse? Goosing your SP to maximum doesn't somehow also afford you the ships or the real-life skill to use them well.
Malcanis' law....
Vets can speed up alt creations. they'd have the real playing skills in place to make this worthwhile right away.
Richer vets already have isk/plex means to write off paying for game. Not paying their sub fees for a while...well they could say hell I haven't paid for the game in a few months to years...screw it, if aurum based give ccp some money again for a switch.
Even I for truly free tools I use for personal computer interests have if truly amazing have clicked on their donate link since some payment should be given for job well done. Take away is not all eve players are cheap asses who won't cough up some cash. For this especially I would wager. |
E1ev1n
Unknown Crusade
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:53:42 -
[1189] - Quote
This devalues character trading. NO. Just NO.
SP trading would be fine but not the reduction of sp because you trade a toon.
Even trading SP sounds bad, how about CCP just seeds up some PLEX and makes it cheaper to train multiple toons by devaluing the PLEX market. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:55:24 -
[1190] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Querns wrote: The people would continue to persist if their characters were sold.
I support bettering the game, and making the character bazaar nightmare more fluid and more accessible is an unmitigated good.
Of course they would, but they are not selling them anyway. Because they are not commodities to the most of the people. Except it does not benefit new players, which is original idea? Awesome idea then. The fact that it didn't happen with such a small sample set is telling of absolutely nothing. The diminishing returns mechanic supports low-SP players more than it does high-SP players. Please read the post where i summed it up. Diminishing return mechanic does support low sp players more than high sp. But low sp players cannot afford it without spending a lot of rl cash. So it is fail. I don't think you understand diminishing returns then.
So you are saying that new players do not need to spend isk (cash to get isk/aur) in order to use it?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
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Camios
Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic
165
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:57:43 -
[1191] - Quote
It's so cool to be against CCP nowadays.
People have always been able to buy skillpoints by buying a character, with very few limitations. I also think that having to buy someone's else character just looks bad. It's not your character, it will never be (if you look at it from an emotional point of view). Buying a character of course gives you a lot of power, though... which is the same as buying skillpoints FROM ANOTHER PLAYER.
I really don't get thist resistance...
- You already can buy skillpoints from other players (characters, but it is frankly the same)
- You already can buy ISK from other players
- Why the hell you should not be able to buy skillpoints from another player? You already can!!
- I get that it's cool to hate CCP nowadays but I don't quite like it, go and vomit your hate somewhere else
Fly safe, you all. _C |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:57:56 -
[1192] - Quote
There is an unwritten book players transmit through forum tradition from generations to generations of griefplayers that might have been titled "The way I play is the right way to play", and that is from where they take statements like "Mining is boring", "The pleasure of EVE is solo PvP", and "My ship should balance to another entire different class of ship so I can take down a capital with two frigates and a shuttle" kind of stuff.
However, there is another book, some devs may have a glimpse when brainstorming, that could be titled "People in EVE are essentally good and will use the powers we give only for good".
Sometimes devs talk about something, even the most pessimist start to rethink that maybe it wont be exploited dry. Then you login in EVE, take out your ship for a spin, and the first phrase on local chat just kill the magic of dev blogs.
Devs and players alike, in their majority forget the rule of shame for any game:
- Any measure for helping new players will help more veterans. The new players usually have no skill or experience to fully appreciate what is done for them, but the veteran has. There is virtually nothing short of tutorials that was made to new players that didnt turned into veteran profiting of advantage.
- Any measure of providing solo play viability becomes a group/alt play enhancement by the potency of alts by the potency of people. The power you give to one character is the power of every alt, and every alt holder. There is no escape from it.
- Any measure of providing ease of changing sov just add the power of bigger groups to take more sov from smaller groups, generating an even bigger area of influence in the hands fo the already benefited veterans holders of dozens of accounts that amassed a fortune and influence through out eve history.
It is the EVE equivalent of civil disarmament to reduce crime. You not taking the guns away from possible criminals, you giving the criminals reason to believe citizens will not fight back.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Ahekao Yamete
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:58:28 -
[1193] - Quote
i love this idea! now i can **** the users older than me! by my MONEY POWER |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3521
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:59:20 -
[1194] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:Querns wrote:Winter Archipelago wrote:You know, the more I think about this, the less I dislike it. I still hope that there are faster decays in return, and I want to see a hard cap, but I'm actually warming up to the idea. The biggest concern in my mind right now is how much it'll cost. Too low, and it'll be abused to Hell and back. Too high and it'll be useless. What I don't get is the "abuse" angle. What's the abuse? Goosing your SP to maximum doesn't somehow also afford you the ships or the real-life skill to use them well. Malcanis' law.... Vets can speed up alt creations. they'd have the real playing skills in place to make this worthwhile right away. Richer vets already have isk/plex means to write off paying for game. Not paying their sub fees for a while...well they could say hell I haven't paid for the game in a few months to years...screw it, if aurum based give ccp some money again for a switch. Even I for truly free tools I use for personal computer interests have if truly amazing have clicked on their donate link since some payment should be given for job well done. Take away is not all eve players are cheap asses who won't cough up some cash. For this especially I would wager.
Okay, there is this...but where will the SP come from? Suppose you want to make a small army of pilots with say, 15 million SP for who knows what....say carrier alts, say 100 of them. This way you could get 20 players across the map (or 5 midpoints) quickly. You'd need to purchase 1.65 billion SP work of SP packets. Or about 3,300 of them.
Yeah, it is easy to abuse things if you assume the supply is perfectly eleastic--i.e. there is an infinite amount of SP packets out there on the market.
Oh and you'd need 34 accounts too with all 3 character slots free. Yes, many players have multiple accounts, but the point is it might necessitate subbing even more accounts to accomplish this.
Contrary to claims this does not scale well.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Rythen Risalo
Immortals of New Eden DARKNESS.
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:01:51 -
[1195] - Quote
I think this is a really good idea. As someone who's played the game since 2007 but for one reason or another didn't stay subscribed that whole period I have always felt that I had a lot less options than the people I play with daily. In the past I have bought a higher SP character to compensate for this and this certainly helped but I feel like I gave up my identity to have that.
Having the ability to make the exact same transaction with isk but have those skillpoints go onto ME rather than get a new SOMEONE. Is really apealling for me.
To the people who are complaining that it's buying SP with $$$. Go take a look at the character bazaar. It happens daily but in a shittier, less convenient way. |
Sella Lesbon
Three-legged Dogs Indomitable Intentions
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:02:08 -
[1196] - Quote
E1ev1n wrote:This devalues character trading. NO. Just NO.
SP trading would be fine but not the reduction of sp because you trade a toon.
Even trading SP sounds bad, how about CCP just seeds up some PLEX and makes it cheaper to train multiple toons by devaluing the PLEX market.
Plexing toons have gone out of hand already
> Never do something to someone that you wouldn't like to be done to yourself.
|
Zerinia
Alliance of Free Stars
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:02:12 -
[1197] - Quote
CCP has stated they want to remove attributes..... maybe they're gonna turn implants into skill packets. I just bought several hundred plus 1s, well see. |
Marech Bhayanaka
Misfits United I N G L O R I O U S
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:02:55 -
[1198] - Quote
Querns wrote: People posting about this (both here and from without) are quick to call this "ISK for SP;" did you all deliberately ignore the part where you have to liquidate an existing pilot's skill points to fuel the skill packets?
Use your isk to keep an extra character or three training. Periodically strip their SP and give it to the characters you actually play. Voila, isk for SP. Or $ for SP if you prefer.
Marech. |
Nex Killer
Perkone Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:07:43 -
[1199] - Quote
I love the idea, got a few characters that have things traded that I don't want anymore or need. Would love to take them away a sell the SP or reuse that SP. |
Kevin Emoto
The League of Unsettled Gentlemen
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:07:44 -
[1200] - Quote
So....none of the typical MMO "Witness Protection Plan" account services - No name changes - No gender changes - No employment history wipes
but....this!?!?
Seriously, since the end of 2012, the really bad ideas seem to be pouring out, each getting worse than the last.
Please, stop the madness, fix bugs, stop going to places like facebook, twitch and reddit to get input from trolls and actually listen to your player base here in forums and through our CSM electorate.
A really good idea would be to start hiring people who understand what eve players love about this game when we signed up. You know, things like it's harsh, it's beautiful, it's unique?
Easy buttons and the continued WoW-ification efforts aren't welcome to players who have been here a long time. Sure it brings in game-of-the month people, but they leave within a few months, and just want it easy.
Do you want people who invest their time in eve, or do you just want the constant swirl of short term players? If you keep this kind of game 'design' up, you'll likely have neither in a relatively short time. |
|
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
103
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:08:58 -
[1201] - Quote
Marech Bhayanaka wrote:Querns wrote: People posting about this (both here and from without) are quick to call this "ISK for SP;" did you all deliberately ignore the part where you have to liquidate an existing pilot's skill points to fuel the skill packets?
Use your isk to keep an extra character or three training. Periodically strip their SP and give it to the characters you actually play. Voila, isk for SP. Or $ for SP if you prefer. Marech.
This point deserve attention. Currently multiple alt accounts are mainly a means of wealth gathering. Certain activities in EVE still allow you to PLEX several alts. Cap escalations, for example. After this change, those alts are not only an ISK source but a power-leveling machine.
EDIT: 1366 comments on r/Eve/ at this point. Yea, this one certainly isn't going to polarize eve player base... |
Indy Rider
Sudden Buggery
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:13:16 -
[1202] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Marech Bhayanaka wrote:[quote=Querns] Periodically strip their SP and give it to the characters you actually play. Voila, isk for SP. Or $ for SP if you prefer.
Marech. This point deserve attention.
Granted I haven't read the post in great detail, but wouldn't the whole diminishing returns thing make it a dumb idea to continually strip and transfer SP? |
FurBurger PotPie
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:13:39 -
[1203] - Quote
Once again a half-a**ed CCP idea. If you are going to allow buying skill points for a character, don't do something ridiculous, go FULL MATRIX. Neo didn't get unallocated skill points, he got a program injected into his head that made him a Kung-Fu master. Do it that way. Want to fly a carrier? Buy a "Basic (race) Carrier Program" with all the skills at minimum prereq levels and the direct skills at level 1. Want to be a carrier God? By the "Master (race) Carrier Pack" with the prereqs still at minimum but the direct skills at level 5. Can't fly in the Corp BLOPS fleet? Buy a "Basic/Intermediate/Master (race) Blops Pack" and you can join the fun that very night. Knowledge isn't gained by magical points, it's gained by studying/training a SPECIFIC activity. Skill Points are merely a way to assign a time to learn a specific skill at a given level. More difficult skills and higher levels require more studying and training than basic skills and basic knowledge. That is why the skill point requirements exist, to force a character to spend more time learning a more advanced skill or level. Unallocated skill points are a convenient way for CCP to reimburse characters for CCP's errors. Don't make them a way of life. |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:15:19 -
[1204] - Quote
The secret is being abstract from chaotic thinking.
Buddy 30-day + Plex + New Player Incentives + Multi Skill Trainning = Fountain of SP
So yeah, from where you take the skills you need of the skill pill thingy ? From your ISK. New players have no ISK for that, veterans do.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
692
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:16:36 -
[1205] - Quote
For years, the Veteran Mantra shouted at noobs who complain about needing skillpoints to win has been:
"Skill points don't equal winning!" "quit crying about not having high SP! SP is practically MEANINGLESS! What's important is your player skill and knowledge!"
So like, why all the crying now?
Apparently TO YOU, you've told us for years that skill points were practically meaningless. . . . So why do you cause such a fuss, literally oceans worth of tears over how now this what you referred to as meaningless facet of eve is now becoming more available?
Were you lying before?
Since you obviously lied before, does that mean you're probably lying now?
Essentially what it boils down to is you're too irrational and devious for the rest of us to bother listening to. Your opinion is worthless because your only purpose of expressing it is to try and manipulate the rest of us into thinking your selfishness is actually altruism. |
Beta Vixen
United Conflict Space Command Gentlemen's.Club
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:18:05 -
[1206] - Quote
opposed.
what is this? my 12th year in game?
out in null, it is plenty simple to make 250 million isk a night if you have sufficient skills and a tough enough ship. What prevents every player from buying PLEX with isk and avoiding paying ccp for game time is the level of skills required.
Sure, for a dozen or twenty PLEX a good enough 'toon could be bought -- but the ROI on doing that is awful. It takes many weeks of virtual slavery to killing anoms to get your investment back.
This notion would make it easier -- make a few tens of millions of isk [easy to do with a Gila in null] and then buy enough SP to add a whole new type of skill to your repertoire. In essence, you do the same thing in small steps. Save for the future? Forget it, the future is now.
Does CCP have a cash flow issue? [the AUR requirement.]. Yes, I think so. Will this solve it? No, I doubt that.
*** Fozziesov still has the capability to ruin this game. There used to be a grand crusade -- either to conquer null or to prevent the other side from doing so. I think that's gone for good. The one remaining side will soon have the ability to conquer as it wishes and hold everyone else in null to ransom.
At that point, I expect paid subscriptions to start declining sharply -- mine included.
And no -- you can't have my stuff or my 'toons. |
Joia Crenca
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
247
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:18:45 -
[1207] - Quote
I'll add my post. I've been mulling the idea over since I heard about it, and while I can see some upsides, and I appreciate CCP Devs thinking out of the box, my ultimate vote has to be: No, I can't support this idea.
It may give a quick cash boost from those that can afford it, but that will both fade, and likely erode the playerbase further for reasons stated in this thread.
A better source of cash would be more subscriptions. For the most part, you all have really improved things. Now we need a better advertising structure to get that awareness of EVE raised worldwide. |
Rikki Bigg
EVE University Ivy League
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:23:05 -
[1208] - Quote
Dr0000 Maulerant wrote:I love how many people are just pretending the character bazaar doesn't exist. I also love how CSM members keep pandering to those people while also utterly failing to construct an argument that makes ANY sense.
You can trade Cash for ISK for SP, RIGHT NOW. This change only brings SP sale to the masses, and lets me get a friend or corp mate into a doctrine that much sooner. Good change CCP.
I enjoy how everyone making the same argument you are via "character bazaar' neglects the rest of the package you get when you buy a lump of skill points using the current mechanics: a character name, a corporation history, a killboard history, a wallet history, etc.
This completely imbalances risk and reward and punishment. 'Characters have to cannibalize their own skill points to fuel this new mechanic' is the common rallying cry. And I'm quite certain that every -10 suicide ganker that has run out of isk or desire, every corp thief that has no further prospects, every deep cover spy that has been exposed, all will be happy to liquidate their only remaining asset to be funneled into a new 'face'.
Intrigue, espionage, infamy, all become a much shallower reflection of their former glory if this goes through. What kind of future does EVE hold if it must sacrifice it's heritage to get there? |
Nessto Lombardi
Great White North Productions Alternate Allegiance
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:23:19 -
[1209] - Quote
Thumbs Down X4 |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
103
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:23:48 -
[1210] - Quote
Indy Rider wrote:Delegate wrote:Marech Bhayanaka wrote:[quote=Querns] Periodically strip their SP and give it to the characters you actually play. Voila, isk for SP. Or $ for SP if you prefer.
Marech. This point deserve attention. Granted I haven't read the post in great detail, but wouldn't the whole diminishing returns thing make it a dumb idea to continually strip and transfer SP?
The way skill system is build, you don't need to skill ad infinitum. Whatever goal you have a 50m SP (and this is currently an efficient bracket) will bring you a long way towards it. So let say you want to move into Capitals, being a subcap pilot. It might be more reasonable for you to start a new account and power-level it with alts all the way to (well focused) 50m SP. Is this a good outcome for the game? No. |
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Anubis Aureus
Aucaedu Unlimited Yulai Federation
56
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:28:49 -
[1211] - Quote
Honestly, I don't know why i even bother to write here, as there is clear the fewest people (if anyone) will read this, but I feel the desire to give a statement nontheless.
To make it simple: No, I don't like the idea at all (as many other fellow pilots for various reasons do neither). The most important stuff will be highlighted with a "" if you cant be bothered to read it all.
But what would be the effect of all this?
1.) Skillpoints would need to be created, which would be very likely achieved by: 1.1.) "The Progamers" At the point of introduction middleaged pilots with (in their eyes however) "wasted" Skillpoints in fields like Mining which never again was used by these pilots after the first weeks or months: So these pilots would most likely get rid of these unwanted balast and relocate them elsewhere to another, more usefull skill, or just to make some money. But at a certain point the influx of these would drasticly decrease, as people at a certain point usually know what they want to skill (or at least the direction) and got rid of the old stuff. 1.2.) "The stationaries" Stationtraders, Tradehubscammers, Tradehubspammers, basicly people who do never actually leave stations. These people could freely do their daily work, gain more SP and just sell them right after. So it would increase the income for persons with such chars. These would be most likely the most reliable income for these Skillboxes due to the fact, that the common stationtraderchars just need certain skills and everything else would be wasted. 1.3.) "The bitter vets" There are several pilots in eve who just dont know what to skill anymore. At 120million skillpoints you usually can fly everyhting most people find usefull and at the same time they usually do not care to much about skilling tradingskills at this point on their "main"-chars. So possibly these chars would sell SP as well or relocate them to other chars (but usually they would most likely just sell them, as these people usually do already have a nice ammount of well-trained usefull alts). 2.) Skillpoints would be consumed, which would be very likely done by: 2.1.) "Noobs" If you are new to Eve you usually got no ******* idea what you actually want to do, and be honest: most new player start off with mining. Back in the days it was jetcanmining with Ospreys (horribly! really!) and these days its usually the venture. With this change newer players with a shitload of money could easily put their nose in several topics of eve online and have a look at the point they want to. At the moment they want to. Like "right naow!". 2.2.) "The Programmers" Do you know these people? These pilots who want to min-max their effort in games, these people who die horribly with +5 implants in pvp because they desperatly want to gain more SP. These would buy them for sure! "Shut up and take my money!" 2.3.) "Alts" - PI-alt, Cynoalt, Supercapital-alt, Trading-alt, Code-alt,...? You've got the money? You'll get it! In minutes! 2.4.) "people with ideas" - Certain alliances do have skillrequirements, and from time to time, it might be tricky and timeconsuming to train such an alt. Fear not! Just get all the skills you need right now! - "Yeah, you know I've met this nice little Miningcorp. They just recruit Miners. Just recently they've recruited a noob who just had Miningstuff skilled, they've checked it by API. The very next day he literally murdered all of his corpmates with a proteus, sitting right in front of the undock! Horrible!" - "You know I was just roaming around in lowsec, there was a guy in local named 'Awesome PvPcharname!"... two weeks old! Easy prey I thought. Did not expect to get toasted by a two old char in a loki tho." - "You know... people know my scamming-/awoxing-/whatever-alt by now by name everywhere. So I just deleted it, after depleeting all of its skills and transfering them to a new char. So just let's keep rolling!
So what would the final impacts be or rather what COULD be?
Positive: 3.1.) Alts could be trained way faster: I personally want a Nyx-Alt. I do have Iskies, but I want it to have a very own name and a very own corphistory. With this, I just could take my iskies and train it up right away. 3.2.) New Player could get Skills at a tremendus speed. Impairor -> Aeon in 1 day! 3.3.) Old players can get rid of "unwanted skillpoints" and even benefit from it 3.4.) Stationchars still have something usefull to do
Negative: 3.1.) => Depending on the pricing this could basicly lead to an end of the charbazar. If its cheaper to create your retort-char, why bother with a charbazar? 3.2.) => Do we really want this? Every player in Eve online got a very own history. Who of us can forget the day when we got rid of this goddamn miningfrigate and finally entered the ugly Osprey to finally mine with 4 Mininglasers and barely any cargo, which lead to a canflip-osprey-loss just a few minutes after we entered our lovely ship? Which newer player can forget the moment when he finally left the venture for an awesome miningbarge, taking place in the seat and get the smell of something new in your nose. Which fighter can forget his very first victory in his awefully equiped frigate, the very first moment the ship was equiped with t2 weapons, after so much time, effort and suffer?
n my humble opinion the skillingprocess is a important part of the way Eve Online actually works. I know a lot of newer players who join the game and realize "oh hey wow, this and that ship is awesome! I wish i could fly it" Have you ever heard of "The journey is the reward"? It is always a journey to reach your very first level 4mission-runningship and it an awesome feeling to finally do these things on your own the very first time. Due to characterslimitation i will go on in a second post.. ;P
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Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:29:41 -
[1212] - Quote
Rikki Bigg wrote:Dr0000 Maulerant wrote:I love how many people are just pretending the character bazaar doesn't exist. I also love how CSM members keep pandering to those people while also utterly failing to construct an argument that makes ANY sense.
You can trade Cash for ISK for SP, RIGHT NOW. This change only brings SP sale to the masses, and lets me get a friend or corp mate into a doctrine that much sooner. Good change CCP. I enjoy how everyone making the same argument you are via "character bazaar' neglects the rest of the package you get when you buy a lump of skill points using the current mechanics: a character name, a corporation history, a killboard history, a wallet history, etc. This completely imbalances risk and reward and punishment. 'Characters have to cannibalize their own skill points to fuel this new mechanic' is the common rallying cry. And I'm quite certain that every -10 suicide ganker that has run out of isk or desire, every corp thief that has no further prospects, every deep cover spy that has been exposed, all will be happy to liquidate their only remaining asset to be funneled into a new 'face'. Intrigue, espionage, infamy, all become a much shallower reflection of their former glory if this goes through. What kind of future does EVE hold if it must sacrifice it's heritage to get there?
Be honest, 99% of the characters sold on the Bazaar are for the skillpoints, You'd have to be selling a really famous character on the Bazaar who had a significant impact in the game in order for the actual character to come into play.
So in-fact this is just an alternative method to buying skillpoints, anyone who argues that the Bazaar isn't a form of purchasing skillpoints is the delusional one.
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Chrome Veinss
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:30:55 -
[1213] - Quote
FurBurger PotPie wrote:Once again a half-a**ed CCP idea. If you are going to allow buying skill points for a character, don't do something ridiculous, go FULL MATRIX. Neo didn't get unallocated skill points, he got a program injected into his head that made him a Kung-Fu master. Do it that way. Want to fly a carrier? Buy a "Basic (race) Carrier Program" with all the skills at minimum prereq levels and the direct skills at level 1. Want to be a carrier God? By the "Master (race) Carrier Pack" with the prereqs still at minimum but the direct skills at level 5. Can't fly in the Corp BLOPS fleet? Buy a "Basic/Intermediate/Master (race) Blops Pack" and you can join the fun that very night. Knowledge isn't gained by magical points, it's gained by studying/training a SPECIFIC activity. Skill Points are merely a way to assign a time to learn a specific skill at a given level. More difficult skills and higher levels require more studying and training than basic skills and basic knowledge. That is why the skill point requirements exist, to force a character to spend more time learning a more advanced skill or level. Unallocated skill points are a convenient way for CCP to reimburse characters for CCP's errors. Don't make them a way of life.
I dont see a big difference between this and the original unallocated skillpoints idea, but several people have proposed this instead and i do like it more. Instead of selling sp packets people would farm and sell trained skills, and there would be a different market value for the different skills based on supply/demand. I think its unnecessarily complicating things over just unallocated sp but if more people are comfortable with trained skills then I'd go with them |
Marech Bhayanaka
Misfits United I N G L O R I O U S
62
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:30:58 -
[1214] - Quote
virm pasuul wrote:My gut reaction is negative, but in my attempt to express logical reasons I can only come up with two things I like about it:
1 It is an skill point sink, it will remove skill points from the game. The best conversion rate is 1:1 where no skill points are lost. In all other cases more skill points are consumed than released and so skill points are removed. I like the concept of this. As skill points are removed, the existing skill points will have slightly more value, in theory anyway.
Factor in the people who would keep a few extra characters training as a SP factory for their real characters and you may see a net INCREASE in SP growth, devaluing existing SP. Certainly the average time taken to get the first 30 or 40m SP trains will decrease when wealthy players can start a new character and do the first couple years of training in a few minutes.
Marech. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
795
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:33:34 -
[1215] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:For years, the Veteran Mantra shouted at noobs who complain about needing skillpoints to win has been:
"Skill points don't equal winning!" "quit crying about not having high SP! SP is practically MEANINGLESS! What's important is your player skill and knowledge!"
So like, why all the crying now?
Apparently TO YOU, you've told us for years that skill points were practically meaningless. . . . So why do you cause such a fuss, literally oceans worth of tears over how now this what you referred to as meaningless facet of eve is now becoming more available?
Were you lying before?
Since you obviously lied before, does that mean you're probably lying now?
Essentially what it boils down to is you're too irrational and devious for the rest of us to bother listening to. Your opinion is worthless because your only purpose of expressing it is to try and manipulate the rest of us into thinking your selfishness is actually altruism.
these would be the 1 day heroes shooting up to reach high sp in record time that will be the idiots in fleet.
its not the SP...its the time flying to get the sp that matters and is actually factored heavily by many. This kind of why the most common question on an applicant form is "is your char bought?".
Most could give a rats ass if you bought the char. Your money, have at it. We want to know why you bought it. New player looking to speed things up ? (so in a really forgiving home we know you are a noob and can hopefully work with you on that if accepted) . Violated one of eve's main rules....never sell your main? Okay, did you learn your lesson and who was that main so we can research them up in the time you ran that char.
Worth noting this SP was already was bypassable. I know of many pirate crews where SP needs can be bypassed to a certain extent. If you can skirmish pretty good, do well in your trial (they set up a fight for you with a corp member, you don't even have to win the fight, just fly really good, not make stupid mistakes and not diaf like a muppet)...you get some +1's racking up.
+1's quite possibly better than me with 100+ mil sp with an extensive kill history from prior 0.0 time that admittedly screams "Yes, I was a F1 spam monkey" lol. Can't skirmish very well I won't lie, I'd fail many pirate crews trials.
|
Pheyde
Edge Defense Contracting
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:34:56 -
[1216] - Quote
First, I must say that in its current form; this is a HORRIBLE IDEA that detracts from all the time people have invested in maintaining their skill queue's over the years.
If you're looking for a revamp of Character Bazaar, move it in game as stated and include a rename and re-sculpt with your purchase. I could still see this being used for nefarious purposes whenever someone's deeds become too infamous to continue their work easily, but it wouldn't ruin the time requirement to improve your character in the game.
Perhaps you could include an SP cap that you cannot exceed. One that is based on the amount of SP your character would have earned if it had been training at 70% peak efficiency for its entire life. This prevents someone from spawning a dozen month old cap pilots but still allows for a version of the proposed insanity. This also could be used for your diminishing returns. Each one of these Skill Packets could provide a percentage of the SP left to bring your character up to that 70% mark. Thus your first Skill Packet would be the most productive and each successive packet would be less and less fruitful making it exceedingly painful as you get nearer your 70%. This allows people who let their character lapse to try to regain some of their lost SP without enabling them to become as good as a character that has been properly managed its entire life. This also prevents new characters from instantly catching up to veterans with years invested in the game.
--Pheyde |
Chrome Veinss
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:36:22 -
[1217] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Indy Rider wrote:Delegate wrote:Marech Bhayanaka wrote:[quote=Querns] Periodically strip their SP and give it to the characters you actually play. Voila, isk for SP. Or $ for SP if you prefer.
Marech. This point deserve attention. Granted I haven't read the post in great detail, but wouldn't the whole diminishing returns thing make it a dumb idea to continually strip and transfer SP? The way skill system is build, you don't need to skill ad infinitum. Whatever goal you have a 50m SP (and this is currently an efficient bracket) will bring you a long way towards it. So let say you want to move into Capitals, being a subcap pilot. It might be more reasonable for you to start a new account and power-level it with alts all the way to (well focused) 50m SP. Is this a good outcome for the game? No.
Yeah this is a very important point. Anything that encourages more people actively playing and doing things with their main rather than getting alts is good for the game. Alts are basically the worst part of Eve |
Seblo McTar
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:40:34 -
[1218] - Quote
Rythen Risalo wrote:I think this is a really good idea. As someone who's played the game since 2007 but for one reason or another didn't stay subscribed that whole period I have always felt that I had a lot less options than the people I play with daily. In the past I have bought a higher SP character to compensate for this and this certainly helped but I feel like I gave up my identity to have that.
Having the ability to make the exact same transaction with isk but have those skillpoints go onto ME rather than get a new SOMEONE. Is really apealling for me.
To the people who are complaining that it's buying SP with $$$. Go take a look at the character bazaar. It happens daily but in a shittier, less convenient way.
That is the exact same for me to. Would love to c this implimented.
Big +1 from me |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6848
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:40:35 -
[1219] - Quote
What happened to the price of the cerebral boosters?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:41:05 -
[1220] - Quote
Again the categorical thinking.
Time playing has no meaning aswell. Nothing has meaning by itself. You cannot use determinism here, as you cant anywhere else, but people still do.
It is the combo of all things that makes this idea bad. By itself it is a good idea. If nothing else was in play, sure, it is just one more way for people to get drunk on SP and bolster their confidence into ill conceived pvp moves, or sitting on a battleship you have no idea of placement or fitting.
The problem is EVE is not World of Warships. You dont simply reset your stats upon ending a bout.
Skill points define as much as the ability to fit slots, speed, agility and HP in a single ship, and that is too much. A high SP clever built char can fit ship that no fit able lesser sp pilot could. In short, it is not possible for a pilot with a number of SP to fly and use a ship to the same power a higher sp pilot can. No matter how skilled the pilot IRL is. That does not mean SP means something by itself.
A newly bought char of golden ratio, skills for cruiser t3 pvp fitted and core skilled to oblivion, in the hands of a lookyloo plex buyer, who just loled on playing EVE, will most likely to be podded by a assault frigate in the hands of a bored veteran. That does not mean IRL experience accounts for much.
The important issue here is what both do together. Once you implement prosthetic experience or sp mechanics, you are not benefiting either case, you are just benefiting the skilled veteran forged in battle who will take advantage of both and be able to easly kill either.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6848
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:41:21 -
[1221] - Quote
Rythen Risalo wrote:To the people who are complaining that it's buying SP with $$$. Go take a look at the character bazaar. It happens daily but in a shittier, less convenient way. Maybe if you asked them, they rather it be even shittier and less convenient, or gone altogether?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Soltys
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:45:00 -
[1222] - Quote
In a way I don't get the gigantic butthurt which essentially comes down "oh noes, he can catch up with my SP". Who cares (aside e-peen value) about SP ? SP doesn't make one good at this game, it only puts people on equal grounds - while being a deadweight-timewall (which frankly speaking should be fixed properly).
This change puts SP into a role of market commodity, and that's pretty good thing to do (not perfect by any means, but proper fixing is unlikely to ever happen).
Either way, anyone that gets hooked in the game will be able to afford it, whether by in-game means (ISK) or with help of RL wallet. Not exactly different from getting any ship/module/character you want with the wallet shortcut today. |
Algathas
Wraithguard. The Wraithguard.
66
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:46:23 -
[1223] - Quote
Plenty of reasons have already been said. I DO NOT support this terrible idea. |
Vernon Legaspe
State War Academy Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:46:38 -
[1224] - Quote
I would cancel my 4 accounts were this, or something substantially like it, to go live.
What's the point of an RPG if you can simply buy progress? |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25317
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:47:06 -
[1225] - Quote
My initial reaction is hell no, until further details emerge I will go with that.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:47:39 -
[1226] - Quote
I think it can be said with some element of certainty that even CCPknows this is a horrible idea but wants to push it through regardless of negative feedback.
I would like to know the names of the CSM patsies that voted yes to this if anyone has this information please share it.
I do not recall any CSM voicing support for this skill selling scheme in this thread... has any single CSM done so?
who voted for this abomination?
who benefits?
who do we burn at the stake for allowing CCP to get away with this? |
Sama Dobrota
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:50:19 -
[1227] - Quote
SEND ME YOUR SKILLPOINTS AND I DOUBLE THEM !
_______________________________ Proven skillpoints doubling since 2015! |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:50:33 -
[1228] - Quote
Indy Rider wrote:Delegate wrote:Marech Bhayanaka wrote:[quote=Querns] Periodically strip their SP and give it to the characters you actually play. Voila, isk for SP. Or $ for SP if you prefer.
Marech. This point deserve attention. Granted I haven't read the post in great detail, but wouldn't the whole diminishing returns thing make it a dumb idea to continually strip and transfer SP? I suppose the idea is that those characters aren't benefiting from additional training so regardless of efficiency their training time is better put to use this way. And of course this does accelerate training AND leave justification outside of that for maintaining the alts, though why it particularly is an issue that someone can increase their training by as little as 10% for the cost of a plex/month + extractor for every 500k SP generated is lost on me.
|
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
693
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:50:52 -
[1229] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Again the categorical thinking.
Time playing has no meaning aswell. Nothing has meaning by itself. You cannot use determinism here, as you cant anywhere else, but people still do.
It is the combo of all things that makes this idea bad. By itself it is a good idea. If nothing else was in play, sure, it is just one more way for people to get drunk on SP and bolster their confidence into ill conceived pvp moves, or sitting on a battleship you have no idea of placement or fitting.
The problem is EVE is not World of Warships. You dont simply reset your stats upon ending a bout.
Skill points define as much as the ability to fit slots, speed, agility and HP in a single ship, and that is too much. A high SP clever built char can fit ship that no fit able lesser sp pilot could. In short, it is not possible for a pilot with a number of SP to fly and use a ship to the same power a higher sp pilot can. No matter how skilled the pilot IRL is. That does not mean SP means something by itself.
A newly bought char of golden ratio, skills for cruiser t3 pvp fitted and core skilled to oblivion, in the hands of a lookyloo plex buyer, who just loled on playing EVE, will most likely to be podded by a assault frigate in the hands of a bored veteran. That does not mean IRL experience accounts for much.
The important issue here is what both do together. Once you implement prosthetic experience or sp mechanics, you are not benefiting either case, you are just benefiting the skilled veteran forged in battle who will take advantage of both and be able to easly kill either.
Yes but when that new character loses his t3 with perfect skills to a bored veteran, he'll know it wasn't a skill point issue but instead a lack of his own personal ability.
This will mean he cannot blame his loss on his needing another year's worth of training and then right there deciding it's not worth the time just to check and see if maybe he can be good enough. He'll get to immediately begin working on how to make sure his issue does not happen again, taking part in an active learning process rather than a "well I guess I'll just have to wait and see." |
Marech Bhayanaka
Misfits United I N G L O R I O U S
63
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:52:01 -
[1230] - Quote
The only thing that makes the loooooong wait for skills to train bearable, is the knowledge that every other character was made exactly the same way. Make it possible to buy SP and suddenly everyone who cannot afford them will feel like a second class citizen, watching new characters fly past them in abilities.
Even if the number of people actually doing it is small, the perception will be large. Don't underestimate how this will destroy the feeling of accomplishment people have when they get each new level 5, or how the wait for their next one will seem intolerable when they know others are paying to bypass it.
Marech. |
|
Pascaali
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:53:54 -
[1231] - Quote
If this change brings more ppl into the game its a small price to pay. However, as stated in the op eve is a game of choices, and choosing which skills to prioritize in your toons training plan is the epitome of the hard choices that make eve great. Burning unused mining skills so a new toon can fly a command ship isn't a hard choice. Devs please consider the following connected ideas:
1) Reward older players! Instead of reducing the amount of unallocated points granted to older players that inject the magic sauce, have lower skill point toons pay a penalty in skill points when they create a transneural skill packet. With out a change such as this, skill packets will kill the deliberate training of toons that are designed from day one to be sold for a specific purpose. There is s risk/reward to this "profession", perhaps the meta shifts and Guardians are ****, or archons get re-skinned in pink etc... Instead, If you have skill packets as outlined in the op, ppl will likely create "Skill farming" toons that spawn a packet everytime they hit 5.5m skill points, there is much less risk/reward to this.
2) Mitigate the high likely hood that easy respeccing will "further condense the meta" and play more logically into the idea that a toon can sell part of itself by having the transneural skill packet only grant skill points in the same skill cataegory that was used to create it.
|
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
693
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:57:51 -
[1232] - Quote
Marech Bhayanaka wrote:The only thing that makes the loooooong wait for skills to train bearable, is the knowledge that every other character was made exactly the same way. Make it possible to buy SP and suddenly everyone who cannot afford them will feel like a second class citizen, watching new characters fly past them in abilities.
Even if the number of people actually doing it is small, the perception will be large. Don't underestimate how this will destroy the feeling of accomplishment people have when they get each new level 5, or how the wait for their next one will seem intolerable when they know others are paying to bypass it.
Marech.
Passage of time happens without any human intervention at all.
The "sense of accomplishment" for simply letting time exist and take place makes no sense since it would have happened with or without you.
Using "time" as the basis for accessibility is ********. That would be like saying whoever the oldest person alive is the one who gets to rule the world because since he's simply existed longest, he's entitled to the best of the best benefits.
lol @ the idea of "hooray I did nothing except wait and I'm rewarded!!!!"
haha that's so insane. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6848
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:57:51 -
[1233] - Quote
Marech Bhayanaka wrote:The only thing that makes the loooooong wait for skills to train bearable, is the knowledge that every other character was made exactly the same way. Make it possible to buy SP and suddenly everyone who cannot afford them will feel like a second class citizen, watching new characters fly past them in abilities.. That's how I felt when I realized people bought their titan characters for cheaper than the plex I spent on training mine.
Even moreso when you see what happened to the prices of these characters. Hulls too, perhaps (but Imperium prices don't go far above build-related costs)
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Yroc Jannseen
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
150
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:59:59 -
[1234] - Quote
Scott Dracov wrote:I think it can be said with some element of certainty that even CCPknows this is a horrible idea but wants to push it through regardless of negative feedback.
I would like to know the names of the CSM patsies that voted yes to this if anyone has this information please share it.
I do not recall any CSM voicing support for this skill selling scheme in this thread... has any single CSM done so?
who voted for this abomination?
who benefits?
who do we burn at the stake for allowing CCP to get away with this?
Gorski seems to support it.
http://crossingzebras.com/skillpoint-trading/
You also seem to be horribly mistaken if you think the CSM or the game in general is some sort of democracy. |
Anubis Aureus
Aucaedu Unlimited Yulai Federation
56
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:02:22 -
[1235] - Quote
Anubis Aureus wrote:babblingbabblingbla
Part 2
In the end, allowing people to buy Skillpoints its the same like selling level-90-tickets in world-of-warcraft. You can basicly skip content. Why bother doing level 1-3 missions if you can jus take place in a Battleship at the very first day and look for people you can fly with for standing? No need to do level 1-3 missions ever again. I might be the only person who ever read the missions description at least once for almost every mission, but it would just complety hollow out the whole idea of process at a certain degree.
What that basicly means people can achieve their goals in eve faster if they invest real money and at the same time they can burn out of eve faster as well. People want stuff they can achieve, and there are several people who want to do certain things.
If you got two chars who start eve at the very same date, there will be always differences between them. One might start as caldari, the other one might be an amarr. And while they are usually never on the same "reallifeskilllevel" these two at the moment can certanly compete on a certain level. But as soon as you introduce skillboosts (and nothing else is all of this) the two players can be divided very fast.
I guess most people do aggree with me if I say, that Gold-Ammo in World of Tanks is/was pay-to-win. You did get better results with the same skills due to higher ingamefficency. If you take this in comparison in eve and take two players of the same experiencelevel, you cant tell me that 2million SP dont make a huge difference in a lot of situations. People who will pay with real money will advance faster than people who will not pay real money, they will be able to get more out of their ships in a shorter ammount of time than comparable entities. And while you can argue, that this was always the case due to the charbasar: come on! The majority of the basarusers use it for alts. The fewest for their mainchar, because they usually do name their chars the way they do for a reason and want to keep this nickname.
Until now you usually could throw a shitload of money into eve, but besides the bazar which most people did not use anyway it was no way to get around the long route of skilling. This would completly cut the journey. Why waiting, if you can pay 5Gé¼ to speed up your skillspeed? Get now 10% more damage out of your pvpfrig if you pay 5Gé¼ for Skillpoints!
You did get more damage out of the goldshells in world of tanks. You will get more damage in comparison to other new players if you pay for skillpoints.
And do you want to argue, that there is already this differance to the older players? And that its unfair for newer players to be hindered? As these older players also got experience the newer players dont have? That is something no money can achieve. But if you introduce Skillpoints for money you will deny newer players the experiences and the feelings of achieving something of imporance and greatness, which led the veterans to the love towards eve all of us unifies. |
Maraner
The Executioners Shadow Cartel
320
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:03:51 -
[1236] - Quote
I have calmed down a little and had some time to consider this soon to be implemented against our wishes CCP cash cow.
**** no **** no and **** no.
The whole taking it from one toon, melting it , adding money and injecting into another character. It smacks of cowardice to be honest. If you are going to introduce P2W then just have the god damn balls and do it.
Aurum for SP. Don't **** it up with adding a drain to an unused skills and trying to obfuscate it by making it look like it will cost us an unused and worthless skill. They are by definition not used and worthless to you or you would not want to melt it out of the skull of an alt or your prime to liberate it into SP to turn it into a skill packet to inject.
Quite frankly the disrespect shown in this move is just amazing. I am shaking my head at this.
If CCP wanted to make this into a game mechanic they could do so with ease. Make corpses that drop from T3 kills melt-able through the newly created anchor-able Ghoul platform, perhaps for the lols add a sec loss for taking the undead skills of dead pilots and hijacking them into you... that would add emergent game play, make it a lolly scrabble for corpses, up the risk of using T3's because everyone would want to pod you to get at the slaved up corpses for those extra juicy inject able packets of SP.
But no.
Lets just make it a plain ol' cash grab. Because that has worked out well every time you tried it. Are we forgetting that people are already paying for this game. Either in cash or time (isk).
Have you grown so desperate for the $ CCP that you resort to such lifeless grubby **** as this?
Shame on you. If you want the money at least be honest about it and make it what it is in plain sight for all to see a direct transfer of $ for SP.
oh and **** you |
Ciba Lexlulu
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
64
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:04:10 -
[1237] - Quote
Most comments here sounds like, 'I have suffered for long to train this l33t pvp toon, and now noobz can immediately get where I am without paying their dues... Waahhhh'.. Please eve has always been P2W, look at character bazaar, pirate implants and OGB. What CCP is doing is just making it easier for newer players to P2W.
I support the proposed changes. The only downside is intel based on players age may be less accurate. Before, we know that a 6mo toon in BC is an easy gank for my T1 frigate; after this change, a 6mo toon in Drake may be able to do real damage as its missile and supports skills enable him to apply damage to my frigate. |
Marech Bhayanaka
Misfits United I N G L O R I O U S
64
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:05:10 -
[1238] - Quote
Indy Rider wrote:Delegate wrote:Marech Bhayanaka wrote:[quote=Querns] Periodically strip their SP and give it to the characters you actually play. Voila, isk for SP. Or $ for SP if you prefer.
Marech. This point deserve attention. Granted I haven't read the post in great detail, but wouldn't the whole diminishing returns thing make it a dumb idea to continually strip and transfer SP?
It gets more expensive, but in a game with the tremendous wealth disparity of Eve, either the space rich could easily afford this on high SP characters or no ordinary player could afford it even on low SP characters. You can't make it affordable for the masses and too expensive for the rich at high levels without making this diminishing returns orders of magnitude more potent.
Remember that the Eve elite have thousands of times more money than most of us, or any here would not be so many supercaps in the game.
Marech. |
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives Executive Outcomes
1116
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:06:10 -
[1239] - Quote
Nearly every single person against this change seems to be totally ignoring the fact I can already just keep making money and trading up to better skilled characters via the character bazaar as long as I don't mind not choosing my name.
What is the big deal here apart from that it's just making something that used to be possible but only really known to old players more visible to new players?
Personally I think they should get rid of the bazaar and permaban anyone selling their account, but they think that legitimising sales is a better way to handle it as you'll never stop it. If that sounds familiar it's because it's the same argument for legalising drugs.
So if you're able to already trade in IRL cash and buy a titan pilot tomorrow, what difference does this system make?
"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
53
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:06:33 -
[1240] - Quote
To illustrate what is the whole problem with this idea I developed an experiment.
In 5 minutes I went from 3 likes to 53 likes, and the only person likeing my posts is myself.
I could go on to 100, 200, or whatever, but if you can think about it, you understand what it means.
In an universe where you can like account wise once, and have no other way of acquiring likes but some other person clicking in like, Likes received mean something.
When you can just alt click on like, create alts to your satisfaction, write garbage and get dozens of likes for minute, likes received stop meaning something to be just a number.
that is what this does to SP, reduces it to a number you can make of whatever you want.
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:Nearly every single person against this change seems to be totally ignoring the fact I can already just keep making money and trading up to better skilled characters via the character bazaar as long as I don't mind not choosing my name.
What is the big deal here apart from that it's just making something that used to be possible but only really known to old players more visible to new players?
That is exactly the problem. As of today, you need work to hide your instant name recognition, and your history will remain there telling others your origin. Like a **** poster a while back talking big game with a Char from 2007 bought in the bazaar. You could see his Ad Verecumdiam arguments go down the tubes when you see his char is from 2007, never joined a Player Corp, and then joined a player corp in 2015, which links it to the one bidding on this character on the bazaar as being made by one of the Corp members.
Again, it is just making everything meaningless bit by bit.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:07:50 -
[1241] - Quote
Maraner wrote:I have calmed down a little and had some time to consider this soon to be implemented against our wishes CCP cash cow.
**** no **** no and **** no.
The whole taking it from one toon, melting it , adding money and injecting into another character. It smacks of cowardice to be honest. If you are going to introduce P2W then just have the god damn balls and do it.
Aurum for SP. Don't **** it up with adding a drain to an unused skills and trying to obfuscate it by making it look like it will cost us an unused and worthless skill. They are by definition not used and worthless to you or you would not want to melt it out of the skull of an alt or your prime to liberate it into SP to turn it into a skill packet to inject.
Quite frankly the disrespect shown in this move is just amazing. I am shaking my head at this.
If CCP wanted to make this into a game mechanic they could do so with ease. Make corpses that drop from T3 kills melt-able through the newly created anchor-able Ghoul platform, perhaps for the lols add a sec loss for taking the undead skills of dead pilots and hijacking them into you... that would add emergent game play, make it a lolly scrabble for corpses, up the risk of using T3's because everyone would want to pod you to get at the slaved up corpses for those extra juicy inject able packets of SP.
But no.
Lets just make it a plain ol' cash grab. Because that has worked out well every time you tried it. Are we forgetting that people are already paying for this game. Either in cash or time (isk).
Have you grown so desperate for the $ CCP that you resort to such lifeless grubby **** as this?
Shame on you. If you want the money at least be honest about it and make it what it is in plain sight for all to see a direct transfer of $ for SP.
oh and **** you Glad to see we're processing this in a calm, rational manner and not fabricating all manner of imaginary BS to be upset about. |
Emila Airhart
Second Battlegroup Nerfed Alliance Go Away
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:09:42 -
[1242] - Quote
This is just bad,
Pay to Win Plain and Simple, cash grab anyone
[15:49:36] Jimmy Causey > i dropped 250 mil of my own cash.-á
|
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
693
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:13:02 -
[1243] - Quote
This gives new players an actual reason, an actual object to strive for to further their progression.
They can subscribe, then go farm isk for the purpose of using it to buy skill points to level their characters faster.
Instead of subscribe and wait for a year, they can subscribe and play a ****-ton of EvE being out in the game actively playing, using their activity to acquire an actual benefit. Using the actual desirable reward of leveling their character as incentive to want to spend more time actively pursuing it.
Sure, just as it's possible to purchase a subscription with dollars, it's also possible to purchase a subscription with isk. This adds another benefit to the new player, something he wants.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:13:24 -
[1244] - Quote
Emila Airhart wrote:This is just bad,
Pay to Win Plain and Simple, cash grab anyone So are we back to SP = Win? Particularly another players SP that they sell for isk?
|
mouse knoblock
HC - maus Inc
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:17:50 -
[1245] - Quote
this is tarable! you guys did a thing in Dust 514 to pay to gain more SP and it killed the game. Now your going to kill the other that i enjoy that you guys have made better over the years. Do not kill this game by doing this. If anything do a thing were u can realicate the SP that you have. But even that is not good cause then it gets rid of the haveing to make smart chices. |
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
1052
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:19:03 -
[1246] - Quote
I'm not entirely sure how much this qualifies as pay to win, after all, skill points only translate to more effectiveness to a certain point, since you can't ever get past level V in all your support skills, and even then, actual player skill and good fits are often of more importance anyways. Aside from that we already have the ability to sell PLEX for cash to actually get that good equipment.
Still, I can't say I support this idea of cutting up characters to sell skills piecemeal. I do think it still removes the hard decisions inherent in the skill system since you can still straight up bypass hard trains by just buying that time and applying it to an existing character where before you had to make the hard choice to find a new character on the bazaar that fit your needs or just suck it up. Also, if it's a matter of, "I screwed up my skill train", which I think all of us have done at some point or another, I'd much rather have the ability to straight up move skillpoints around (for some sort of penalty of course) to fix minor mis-allocations, though even that may be dubious.
It also straight up seems odd to cut up an actual character as some sort of commodity. It might not be so bad if you could just sell the entire skill package and biomass the associated character, but the piecemeal approach allows the skills to be spread around too much. that's also the other problem I have with it. In the Bazaar there is a one to one approach, one person loses a character and another gains it, under this proposed system, a throwaway character can suddenly be split up and sold to multiple people for benefit.
In the devblog having a face you don't want, a name you find terrible, and a dubious history on a bought character. It's been suggested so many times before, that even outside of the character Bazaar , we'd appreciate the ability to change our name even if a name history were left attached. I'd much rather have a way to turn a sold character into a blank slate when it is sold to a different person, than to have the ability to just sell the SP. |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
53
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:19:15 -
[1247] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:This gives new players an actual reason, an actual object to strive for to further their progression.
They can subscribe, then go farm isk for the purpose of using it to buy skill points to level their characters faster.
Instead of subscribe and wait for a year, they can subscribe and play a ****-ton of EvE being out in the game actively playing, using their activity to acquire an actual benefit. Using the actual desirable reward of leveling their character as incentive to want to spend more time actively pursuing it.
Sure, just as it's possible to purchase a subscription with dollars, it's also possible to purchase a subscription with isk. This adds another benefit to the new player, something he wants.
Yeah, they can just join EVE, buy themselves some SPs, go out, be blown up by those with the SP AND the actual skill in pvp, and ragequit because they spent money in a meaningless SP prosthetics instead of actually learning by doing.
Again, it is easy to think with a veteran head what good to newbies is somethings.
As an alt producer, I am always doing career and low sp stuff. Even if you have the experience to perform, the lack of SP makes you actually reconsider and even learn something new lots of times.
If I am just able of use my own devices to produce an army of SP filled zombies, that is what it will endup being full of. And the new players making use of it to advance quickly will just join the grinder sooner, and a much worse blob grinder I faced with my new alts.
It is the cascading effect. I am not saying the idea is bad for the rookies, I am saying it will create more problems for them and everyone else than it solves.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Natasha Valkova
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:23:04 -
[1248] - Quote
Incarna Strikes Back |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:23:45 -
[1249] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Yeah, they can just join EVE, buy themselves some SPs, go out, be blown up by those with the SP AND the actual skill in pvp, and ragequit because they spent money in a meaningless SP prosthetics instead of actually learning by doing.
Again, it is easy to think with a veteran head what good to newbies is somethings.
As an alt producer, I am always doing career and low sp stuff. Even if you have the experience to perform, the lack of SP makes you actually reconsider and even learn something new lots of times.
If I am just able of use my own devices to produce an army of SP filled zombies, that is what it will endup being full of. And the new players making use of it to advange quickly will just join the grinder sooner, and a much worse blob grinder I faced with my new alts.
It is the cascading effect. Why does getting purchased SP preclude they won't learn by doing? With or without SP they still need to actually do things, so unless crossing an SP threshold makes people lose basic competence we shouldn't have an issue.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6848
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:28:41 -
[1250] - Quote
Maraner wrote:I have calmed down a little and had some time to consider this soon to be implemented against our wishes CCP cash cow.
**** no **** no and **** no.
The whole taking it from one toon, melting it , adding money and injecting into another character. It smacks of cowardice to be honest. If you are going to introduce P2W then just have the god damn balls and do it.
Aurum for SP. Don't **** it up with adding a drain to an unused skills and trying to obfuscate it by making it look like it will cost us an unused and worthless skill. They are by definition not used and worthless to you or you would not want to melt it out of the skull of an alt or your prime to liberate it into SP to turn it into a skill packet to inject.
Quite frankly the disrespect shown in this move is just amazing. I am shaking my head at this.
If CCP wanted to make this into a game mechanic they could do so with ease. Make corpses that drop from T3 kills melt-able through the newly created anchor-able Ghoul platform, perhaps for the lols add a sec loss for taking the undead skills of dead pilots and hijacking them into you... that would add emergent game play, make it a lolly scrabble for corpses, up the risk of using T3's because everyone would want to pod you to get at the slaved up corpses for those extra juicy inject able packets of SP.
But no.
Lets just make it a plain ol' cash grab. Because that has worked out well every time you tried it. Are we forgetting that people are already paying for this game. Either in cash or time (isk).
Have you grown so desperate for the $ CCP that you resort to such lifeless grubby **** as this?
Shame on you. If you want the money at least be honest about it and make it what it is in plain sight for all to see a direct transfer of $ for SP.
oh and **** you You need to calm down a bit more. Take a chill (or SP) pill?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6848
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:29:41 -
[1251] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:Yeah, they can just join EVE, buy themselves some SPs, go out, be blown up by those with the SP AND the actual skill in pvp, and ragequit because they spent money in a meaningless SP prosthetics instead of actually learning by doing.
Again, it is easy to think with a veteran head what good to newbies is somethings.
As an alt producer, I am always doing career and low sp stuff. Even if you have the experience to perform, the lack of SP makes you actually reconsider and even learn something new lots of times.
If I am just able of use my own devices to produce an army of SP filled zombies, that is what it will endup being full of. And the new players making use of it to advange quickly will just join the grinder sooner, and a much worse blob grinder I faced with my new alts.
It is the cascading effect. Why does getting purchased SP preclude they won't learn by doing? With or without SP they still need to actually do things, so unless crossing an SP threshold makes people lose basic competence we shouldn't have an issue. Maybe they're worried that everyone will have the 30mil SP needed to join ncdot and then they will steamroll us?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
NerdusMaximus
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:29:52 -
[1252] - Quote
This is a terrible idea.
It's cheap and nasty monetization. It reeks of some third-rate, bargain bin, Korean MMO pay2win scheme. No amount of crying "b-but the character bazaar!" is gonna change the fact that this is quite deliberately geared towards new players, exploiting their frustration with the learning curve for money.
New players want to sit in new ships the same way a kid wants to eat candy for his dinner. Ultimately, he will just be left feeling hungry. Don't be a bad parent CCP. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6848
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:30:57 -
[1253] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Emila Airhart wrote:This is just bad,
Pay to Win Plain and Simple, cash grab anyone So are we back to SP = Win? Particularly another players SP that they sell for isk? Yeah, apparently they are Paid to Lose
.... hmm.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:32:25 -
[1254] - Quote
NerdusMaximus wrote:This is a terrible idea.
It's cheap and nasty monetization. It reeks of some third-rate, bargain bin, Korean MMO pay2win scheme. No amount of crying "b-but the character bazaar!" is gonna change the fact that this is quite deliberately geared towards new players, exploiting their frustration with the learning curve for money.
New players want to sit in new ships the same way a kid wants to eat candy for his dinner. Ultimately, he will just be left feeling hungry. Don't be a bad parent CCP. The ironic thing here is that the skill packets those new players would buy are not for sale via real money or aur. If you actually want SP, the place you go is the market to exchange isk. And best of all, this provides yet another incentive corps can offer to new players.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6848
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:32:26 -
[1255] - Quote
NerdusMaximus wrote:This is a terrible idea.
It's cheap and nasty monetization. It reeks of some third-rate, bargain bin, Korean MMO pay2win scheme. No amount of crying "b-but the character bazaar!" is gonna change the fact that this is quite deliberately geared towards new players, exploiting their frustration with the learning curve for money.
New players want to sit in new ships the same way a kid wants to eat candy for his dinner. Ultimately, he will just be left feeling hungry. Don't be a bad parent CCP. Actually we were probably going to use this to feed them their veggies (core skills) which are a nice solid present to give them. Like, we can send them lots of isk, but SP and some guidance on where to use them will probably be the "gift that keeps on giving" as the tired olf trope goes.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Myriddan Antollare
Zelotic Economics Karezza Rabbit Wholes
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:35:21 -
[1256] - Quote
I'm a n00b so my opinion doesn't mean much, but here are my thoughts:
I'm torn because it would be nice to increase my training speed further and supplement it with the skill point potential since I no longer plex my subscription I have excess ISK to spend. I just think that giving characters 500k of unallocated skill points does not make a whole lot of sense. Being able to strip out a level 5 skill and sell it seems more possible in the universe, you're essentially trading memories at this point which feasibly could work lore wise.
If you really are going to go through with this idea then there has to be a cap. X times total, x times per month, etc. Otherwise people are going to just get a new character and buy up a bunch of skill books and have alts with the skills they want and then any further training they will just go and sell. |
Ahekao Yamete
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:35:40 -
[1257] - Quote
so, when i can SP by money? |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
54
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:35:52 -
[1258] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:Yeah, they can just join EVE, buy themselves some SPs, go out, be blown up by those with the SP AND the actual skill in pvp, and ragequit because they spent money in a meaningless SP prosthetics instead of actually learning by doing.
Again, it is easy to think with a veteran head what good to newbies is somethings.
As an alt producer, I am always doing career and low sp stuff. Even if you have the experience to perform, the lack of SP makes you actually reconsider and even learn something new lots of times.
If I am just able of use my own devices to produce an army of SP filled zombies, that is what it will endup being full of. And the new players making use of it to advange quickly will just join the grinder sooner, and a much worse blob grinder I faced with my new alts.
It is the cascading effect. Why does getting purchased SP preclude they won't learn by doing? With or without SP they still need to actually do things, so unless crossing an SP threshold makes people lose basic competence we shouldn't have an issue.
Exactly what cascading effect means. While you have to face things you learn to deal with them. When you can just buy your way out, you simply found a way out. It is like alts. Blob become a vice and a weakness after a time you use them. You even forget things you learned as you have alts to do works.
Distancing you from a learning curve is a pathway the game takes towards what WoW players must have known quite a lot about.
Once you introduce rookies in places they dont have the experience to belong but the SP to be, you introduce a sheep in a wolf's den. If you go down that path, soon you are changing the game to make the sheep more powerful, and match the wolves. As it is not enough, you start nerfing the wolves to match the buffed sheep, reducing the overall player base to a minimum common denominator.
Soon after that you are creating cocoons to shield players of real danger, and soon after that you are making end game content to people with lots of SP/XP and no clue to what to do in actual gameplay, so instead you turn game mechanics into ignorable nuisances, and create LFR, or LFC (look for complex), with shaven off mechanics from the regular mode. After a while everything is just dumbed down until anyone who started to play yesterday just go around oneshooting everything.
The PSR of this is clearly around the corner. Once you start shortcutting learning curve, you are rendering learning curve useless. From that, there is no way back, because once you have enough people without having passed by the fire, you will never put the firewall back in their path.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6850
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:40:04 -
[1259] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Exactly what cascading effect means. While you have to face things you learn to deal with them. When you can just buy your way out, you simply found a way out. It is like alts. Blob become a vice and a weakness after a time you use them. You even forget things you learned as you have alts to do works.
Distancing you from a learning curve is a pathway the game takes towards what WoW players must have known quite a lot about.
Once you introduce rookies in places they dont have the experience to belong but the SP to be, you introduce a sheep in a wolf's den. If you go down that path, soon you are changing the game to make the sheep more powerful, and match the wolves. As it is not enough, you start nerfing the wolves to match the buffed sheep, reducing the overall player base to a minimum common denominator.
Soon after that you are creating cocoons to shield players of real danger, and soon after that you are making end game content to people with lots of SP/XP and no clue to what to do in actual gameplay, so instead you turn game mechanics into ignorable nuisances, and create LFR, or LFC (look for complex), with shaven off mechanics from the regular mode. After a while everything is just dumbed down until anyone who started to play yesterday just go around oneshooting everything.
The PSR of this is clearly around the corner. Once you start shortcutting learning curve, you are rendering learning curve useless. From that, there is no way back, because once you have enough people without having passed by the fire, you will never put the firewall back in their path. Exactly what slippery slope looks like. While you have to read posts like this you learn to identify them (but not identify with them).
Estevan Andrard wrote: Blob become a vice and a weakness after a time you use them. You even forget things you learned as you have alts to do works.. I guess when I use an alt to light a cyno I forget how to jump my supercap through a gate, or when I use an alt to scout, I forget how to jump blind to a beacon but...
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
694
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:41:24 -
[1260] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:This gives new players an actual reason, an actual object to strive for to further their progression.
They can subscribe, then go farm isk for the purpose of using it to buy skill points to level their characters faster.
Instead of subscribe and wait for a year, they can subscribe and play a ****-ton of EvE being out in the game actively playing, using their activity to acquire an actual benefit. Using the actual desirable reward of leveling their character as incentive to want to spend more time actively pursuing it.
Sure, just as it's possible to purchase a subscription with dollars, it's also possible to purchase a subscription with isk. This adds another benefit to the new player, something he wants.
Yeah, they can just join EVE, buy themselves some SPs, go out, be blown up by those with the SP AND the actual skill in pvp, and ragequit because they spent money in a meaningless SP prosthetics instead of actually learning by doing. Again, it is easy to think with a veteran head what good to newbies is somethings. As an alt producer, I am always doing career and low sp stuff. Even if you have the experience to perform, the lack of SP makes you actually reconsider and even learn something new lots of times. If I am just able of use my own devices to produce an army of SP filled zombies, that is what it will endup being full of. And the new players making use of it to advance quickly will just join the grinder sooner, and a much worse blob grinder I faced with my new alts. It is the cascading effect. I am not saying the idea is bad for the rookies, I am saying it will create more problems for them and everyone else than it solves.
So it's quit eve because they never get to play it due to not having the skill points, or they quit because they die.
At least one involves them actually playing it. |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6850
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:43:12 -
[1261] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:So it's quit eve because they never get to play it due to not having the skill points, or they quit because they die.
At least one involves them actually playing it. Agreed.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:43:17 -
[1262] - Quote
Someone with more time then myself needs to go and quote the trillion responses over the years from vets to newbs about how skillpoints don't matter the player does blah blah blah, I'm loving this thread my cups are literally overflowing with tears. Its glorious! |
Uno Testicular
BOVRIL bOREers Mining CO-OP RAZOR Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:44:13 -
[1263] - Quote
I do not like anything about this idea... i think it's absolutely ridiculous.
The unique selling point of eve is that you have to wait, and choose you path carefully, not buy sp and jump straight in.
This is an awful idea, please don't go ahead with it |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
131
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:47:50 -
[1264] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Yeah, they can just join EVE, buy themselves some SPs, go out, be blown up by those with the SP AND the actual skill in pvp, As opposed to not having the SP and 'go out, be blown up by those with the SP AND the actual skill'?
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:48:11 -
[1265] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Exactly what cascading effect means. While you have to face things you learn to deal with them. When you can just buy your way out, you simply found a way out. It is like alts. Blob become a vice and a weakness after a time you use them. You even forget things you learned as you have alts to do works.
Distancing you from a learning curve is a pathway the game takes towards what WoW players must have know quite a lot about.
Once you introduce rookies in places they dont have the experience to belong but the SP to be, you introduce a sheep in a wolf's den. If you go down that path, soon you are changing the game to make the sheep more powerful, and match the wolves. As it is not enough, you start nerfing the wolves to match the buffed sheep, reducing the overall player base to a minimum common denominator.
Soon after that you are creating cocoons to shield players of real danger, and soon after that you are making end game content to people with lots of SP/XP and no clue to what to do in actual gameplay, so instead you turn game mechanics into ignorable nuisances, and create LFR, or LFC (look for complex), with shaven off mechanics from the regular mode. After a while everything is just dumbed down until anyone who started to play yesterday just go around oneshooting everything.
The PSR of this is clearly around the corner. Once you start shortcutting learning curve, you are rendering learning curve useless. From that, there is no way back, because once you have enough people without having passed by the fire, you will never put the firewall back in their path. So this is basically slippery slope. That and claiming SP is a means of "buying your way out" of some anomalous thing, which somehow only a matter of SP makes or breaks. Also somehow forgetting how to do tasks you do on your alts? I'm not sure.
But mostly the idea that SP is a learning curve after understanding what to train, and further beyond the training queue at all, is terribly false. Once you know what you want skill wise the only "challenge" is waiting. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:48:56 -
[1266] - Quote
Uno Testicular wrote:I do not like anything about this idea... i think it's absolutely ridiculous.
The unique selling point of eve is that you have to wait, and choose you path carefully, not buy sp and jump straight in.
This is an awful idea, please don't go ahead with it
Ya cause we dont have a character bazaar in Eve...come back with actual arguments |
Acaia Saraki
Rogue Occupation
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:49:32 -
[1267] - Quote
Thinking about this, I've pieced together multiple previously posted ideas.
Make it to where a character that has already trained said skill to 5, can "wipe" that skill effectively removing it from their head and placing it into one of the neural thingies. At that point, they can then sell that neural thingy on the market like an in game item. The prerequisite is having the previously required skillbooks, if any, either already be learned or be in the inventory ready to be learned. If Aurum is the key here, then the second option can still happen above, but make it an entire skill pack purchasable with Aurum on the store with varying levels of points, low, mid and high. That way if someone wants to purchase that pack, but wants to have the satisfaction of training it to perfect themselves, they can. And for those like me who are impatient and want instant gratification to enjoy the game can get the highest possible training pack and jump right into whatever we want.
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
599
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:51:18 -
[1268] - Quote
Alt Farmers!
Don't lose your chance!
500k of SP for 2.5b only!
Get them now!
"Skillmart" now is open! 24/7! |
NerdusMaximus
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:52:39 -
[1269] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:The ironic thing here is that the skill packets those new players would buy are not for sale via real money or aur. If you actually want SP, the place you go is the market to exchange isk. And best of all, this provides yet another incentive corps can offer to new players.
Oh please, don't be so naive. New players will be a massive well of demand for the Packets, in order for older players to fill the demand they will have to buy the Extractors via Aurum.
It's a very roundabout way of doing it, but ultimately it comes down to CCP exploiting that initial demand for their own profit. It's not a demand they should be fulfilling, because of course every new player wants the shiny ships, the best skills. Every new player in every game wants the best, most powerful stuff. You don't actually give it to them. Goodness me.
That's not to say they shouldn't be trimming the fat in regards to boring (but often necessary) skills that have little interesting gameplay pay offs. There's so many long trains that have little at the end to show for it. Why aren't CCP focusing on making the skill progression more rewarding? Instead they are lining their pockets with the boredom of waiting, like every freemium iPhone game you ever heard of. |
Clancy Davis
Stepping Stone Industries Gentlemen's.Parlor
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:53:57 -
[1270] - Quote
No.
Part of the appeal of the game is that you have to live with the decisions you make. Another part is the sense of accomplishment for attaining a long term goal. This proposal would scuttle these long running and defining aspects of the game.
Yes, I know the Character Bazaar is a way for players with high time preferences to bypass the long training times. While this is a version of "pay to win", it was tempered by tendency for the characters up for sale to have a terrible reputation, imbecilic names, or some other terrible flaw.
This is undoubtedly the worst idea I've heard since I've started playing the game.
|
|
Buoytender Bob
Ronin Exploration Mission and Mining
116
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:55:57 -
[1271] - Quote
It appears that now is the time to take a much harder look at my MMO options; something I wasn't planning to do anytime soon.
.
To buck the popular trend, I began to Rage Start instead of Rage Quit.
...and every time I get another piece of Carbon, I know exactly what CCP is getting this Christmas.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6850
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:57:38 -
[1272] - Quote
Clancy Davis wrote:Yes, I know the Character Bazaar is a way for players with high time preferences to bypass the long training times. While this is a version of "pay to win", it was tempered by tendency for the characters up for sale to have a terrible reputation, imbecilic names, or some other terrible flaw. This reminds me of the character mill who named all the characters (of course Jita-sitters in NPC corps) after himself and then petitioned them after sale, so the buyer could get a new name. Because of course, a well known character seller wouldn't want to be impersonated by alts he had sold.
Really good idea, that.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
55
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:58:40 -
[1273] - Quote
People dont quit eve because skill points prevent them to play. If something happens, it is not about the skill points but new players placement.
In my time of bring a true new player, it was harder to get by, but it was also an understandable fact it was hard to get by. The community ties to new players were stronger because it was a known fact that new players were starting. People had some kind of respect by rookies. Not everyone, but generally. I had people to guide me, I had people advise me.
As CCP start to soften the trial by fire from rookies, the veterans see no reason to make it themselves, and rookies also lose the sense of the respect they needed, and do not develop it themselves for those who will in turn be rookies for them.
That is also something WoW players knew a lot about in the space of few years.
You went from end game people sitting with rookies on Crossroads to train pvp to lolers sitting on major cities jumping from one instance to another.
The things about skill points is not something that had the attention it has today, because again, you cant put the firewall back when you have so many already past the point without it. You could not hold SP as a learning method anymore when you started making shortcuts in the form of buffing low sp requiring ships and nerfing high sp requiring ships.
That is the start of the problem. Most people didnt saw it comming when they started closing the gap of what you could fly and the damage you could do from different SP stand points. That made people aware that SP was debatable, was subject of change, dramatic change, ergo, it was reason to rage upon.
It is like credit card debt. You start paying one off of another for need, then soon your greed becomes need. Soon enough, your bill is only affordable by simply defaulting.
Well, first you enhance SP acquisition, then you nerf SP importance, then you close the SP need gap for stages of progression. Then when the actual skill vs the SP is too far to be solved by workarounds, you remove it entirely.
How soon you think that "Insta Capitals token" (like insta 80 in wow) will come to New Eden Store after Skill token has touched down ?
Even the words used are the same: "We want new players to be ready to enjoy high end content quicker".
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Ave Kathrina
My Ass Is On Fire
189
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:59:07 -
[1274] - Quote
Clancy Davis wrote:No.
Part of the appeal of the game is that you have to live with the decisions you make.
I'm looking at your Tactical Shield Manipulation V..... you wasteful bastard.
I (and my 6 accounts) are with mostly everyone else here, this is a ****** idea that will drive vets away.... sure it might make way for new bodies but its not like you're all bathed in the blood of virgin eve account owners right now is it ?
I've done some really stupid shit in this game.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:01:07 -
[1275] - Quote
NerdusMaximus wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:The ironic thing here is that the skill packets those new players would buy are not for sale via real money or aur. If you actually want SP, the place you go is the market to exchange isk. And best of all, this provides yet another incentive corps can offer to new players.
Oh please, don't be so naive. New players will be a massive well of demand for the Packets, in order for older players to fill the demand they will have to buy the Extractors via Aurum. It's a very roundabout way of doing it, but ultimately it comes down to CCP exploiting that initial demand for their own profit. It's not a demand they should be fulfilling, because of course every new player wants the shiny ships, the best skills. Every new player in every game wants the best, most powerful stuff. You don't actually give it to them. Goodness me. That's not to say they shouldn't be trimming the fat in regards to boring (but often necessary) skills that have little interesting gameplay pay offs. There's so many long trains that have little at the end to show for it. Why aren't CCP focusing on making the skill progression more rewarding? Instead they are lining their pockets with the boredom of waiting, like every freemium iPhone game you ever heard of. I never said new players wouldn't want the packets, they just can't get them for aur as they aren't being sold for aur. That the demand may push vets to spend aur is a non issue as it's at best exploiting the customers who know what they are getting into and capable of making informed decisions.
At that point if the vets are being exploited it's their own fault.
As far as not giving things to people, it's not, it's putting a resource harvested by players out there to supply everyone's demand for it, like anything else on the market. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:03:19 -
[1276] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:How soon you think that "Insta Capitals token" (like insta 80 in wow) will come to New Eden Store after Skill token has touched down ? What skill token is coming to the new eden store? This idea does not allow for the purchase of SP from the NES, only the ability to remove ones SP, which can be sold for isk. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:04:36 -
[1277] - Quote
Clancy Davis wrote:No.
Part of the appeal of the game is that you have to live with the decisions you make. Another part is the sense of accomplishment for attaining a long term goal. This proposal would scuttle these long running and defining aspects of the game.
Yes, I know the Character Bazaar is a way for players with high time preferences to bypass the long training times. While this is a version of "pay to win", it was tempered by tendency for the characters up for sale to have a terrible reputation, imbecilic names, or some other terrible flaw.
This is undoubtedly the worst idea I've heard since I've started playing the game.
So one form of pay to win is okay but another isn't? Please explain to me how plugging in a skill and waiting and waiting and waiting for it to finish gives you a sense of accomplishment? It doesn't give me a sense of accomplishment. Beating a guy with links when i have none gives me a sense of accomplishment, escaping multiple nullsec camps when i'm being hunted gives me a sense of accomplishment I'm sure industry stuff for some folks gives them a sense of accomplishment. All it is for me is an unnecessary burden due antiquated game mechanics. And game evolution has be brought to the speed of a glacier because of the overwhelming out pour of tears from bittervets to CCP all spewing the same vomit about how it's pay to win, it's not fair because back in my day i didn't have this option, it ruins character development, blah blah blah, begging and pleading with CCP not to allow this type of mechanic in game.
To be honest good on CCP for putting this out there and hopefully it doesn't lose momentum due to all the haters. |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
55
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:04:43 -
[1278] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:How soon you think that "Insta Capitals token" (like insta 80 in wow) will come to New Eden Store after Skill token has touched down ? What skill token is coming to the new eden store? This idea does not allow for the purchase of SP from the NES, only the ability to remove ones SP, which can be sold for isk.
You question is the seed of your answer.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Ahekao Sugoi
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:07:00 -
[1279] - Quote
sugoi wwwwwww |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:07:50 -
[1280] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:How soon you think that "Insta Capitals token" (like insta 80 in wow) will come to New Eden Store after Skill token has touched down ? What skill token is coming to the new eden store? This idea does not allow for the purchase of SP from the NES, only the ability to remove ones SP, which can be sold for isk. You question is the seed of your answer. Then my answer is that the cap token will never come as the skill token is not coming.
|
|
NerdusMaximus
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:08:26 -
[1281] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I never said new players wouldn't want the packets, they just can't get them for aur as they aren't being sold for aur. That the demand may push vets to spend aur is a non issue as it's at best exploiting the customers who know what they are getting into and capable of making informed decisions.
At that point if the vets are being exploited it's their own fault.
As far as not giving things to people, it's not, it's putting a resource harvested by players out there to supply everyone's demand for it, like anything else on the market.
Except the way you "harvest" this resource is
1: Giving CCP your money for the account. 2: Waiting. 3: Giving CCP more of your money.
Compelling gameplay. Exceptional interactive design brought to you by Crowd Control Productions. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:10:17 -
[1282] - Quote
NerdusMaximus wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:I never said new players wouldn't want the packets, they just can't get them for aur as they aren't being sold for aur. That the demand may push vets to spend aur is a non issue as it's at best exploiting the customers who know what they are getting into and capable of making informed decisions.
At that point if the vets are being exploited it's their own fault.
As far as not giving things to people, it's not, it's putting a resource harvested by players out there to supply everyone's demand for it, like anything else on the market. Except the way you "harvest" this resource is 1: Giving CCP your money for the account. 2: Waiting. 3: Giving CCP more of your money. Compelling gameplay. Exceptional interactive design brought to you by Crowd Control Productions. Question, how often have you protested the existence of PLEX?
Follow up question: How often have you protested the Character Bazaar? |
Cordo Draken
ABOS Industrial Enterprises The Marmite Collective
100
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:14:16 -
[1283] - Quote
One Word: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
I repeat: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
And just incase you weren't listening, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Time for someone's Final Notice to be found at their desk just for entertaining this idea!
It's truly that seriously bad. Cause now, if this were to go through, those same dudes that are Eve rich and have 50 alt accounts WILL UNDOUBTEDLY Skill up all their ALTs and have 50 (Insert Titan name here) on the field.
So just to sum it up, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
eëÆWhomever said, "You only get one shot to make a good impression," was utterly wrong. I've made plenty of great impressions with my AutocannonseëÆ eÉà
|
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
963
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:14:43 -
[1284] - Quote
I feel sorry for this game i really do its at rock bottom. |
J Livermore
Flaming Sideburns Social Club
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:15:38 -
[1285] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:How soon you think that "Insta Capitals token" (like insta 80 in wow) will come to New Eden Store after Skill token has touched down ? What skill token is coming to the new eden store? This idea does not allow for the purchase of SP from the NES, only the ability to remove ones SP, which can be sold for isk. You question is the seed of your answer. Then my answer is that the cap token will never come as the skill token is not coming.
Not coming yet.
But if you think this will be last step you're kinda naive. |
Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
22
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:16:34 -
[1286] - Quote
I have just re read every post in this thread-naught and found players to be overwhelmingly against this idea.
I have found a lot of players like myself who have little interest in forum use but are active in game for around a year (the target of who CCP says this will benefit most) voicing their very strong opinions against this idea.
I looked for all CSM opinions as well and found only four all against this skill trading idea...
Mike Azariah wrote:I am also against this. I could go into details but . . . this feels wrong to me. Against what I thought the game to be. m
Steve Ronuken wrote:I don't like this. Could be worse, but I don't like it.
A lowish hard cap would make it not as bad. But it still leads to "I just subscribed, but unless I spend more real money, I'll always be behind"
Sugar Kyle wrote:Can't say I like it. Ive been against it since it was presented.
This is supposed to be a predecision discussion as I have understood it. Please make your opinions known.
Sort Dragon wrote:I am just going to come out and say I do not support this. I have been against this internally and at the summit.
Maybe you as the community will say different but this isn't for me.
If this gets pushed through anyway in spite of people in CSM leadership positions for the eve community against it and so many people like me who never use the forums in total disgust over this and posting their no vote in no uncertain terms telling CCP no one wants this I think it will not end well for anyone.
I find the irony that at my SP level I am supposed to be the one with most to gain from this nonsense and I find it so offensive to everything I hoped to accomplish in eve on my journey through this game that I am almost totally demoralized by this betrayal by CCP even considering this that I feel like screaming...
"I AM THE NEW PLAYER YOU SAY YOU ARE AN ADVOCATE FOR AND I DO NOT WANT THIS!!!!!!!!!!"
I have taken the time to give you (CCP) quantifiable data regarding how much this idea is hated I hope you will not just ignore it and implement this debacle anyway. |
NerdusMaximus
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:17:10 -
[1287] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Question, how often have you protested the existence of PLEX?
PLEX and the Character Bazaar are a necessary evil - because the players will do it anyway. This goes from sanitizing and tolerating a crappy market to actively encouraging it. In a perfect world PLEX and the Bazaar wouldn't need to exist. |
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
136
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:18:17 -
[1288] - Quote
I am not a fan of this idea. To me it is like selling golden ammo because instead of planning out a toon's path I can just pay money for gunnery skills and not have to worry about it. I think it also cheapens T3 cruiser loss because I could have some SP sitting in the hanger when I get home.
On the bright side now I can train Astronautic Engineering.
Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why.
Hunter S. Thompson
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
55
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:20:12 -
[1289] - Quote
I dont know if it is really complex to see or just plain looking the other way.
I have a char with X SP. Today I can buy in the Bazaar a char with X+Y SP under the penalty that everyone can see with a little intel that my char is a bought one. That is still buying SP, but in a kinda messy way. Just as the dev says.
I have a char with X SP. After the theoric implementation of this, I buy a thing (whatever it may be) that adds SP to this char and it end up with X + Y SP. We just removed the penalty and we have something that only represents the act of add SP to a char.
That is a SP token by definition. IT does not matter how it got to the market. It is like refined ore. It wont stop being refined ore just because you bought it instead of refining yourself.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:20:28 -
[1290] - Quote
J Livermore wrote:Not coming yet.
But if you think this will be last step you're kinda naive. So we're back to slippery slope?
Maybe instead of me being naive you're just too cynical.
Also I can't think of a good reason as someone wanting profit that I'd decide to shortcut my sub revenue (Hint: Every SP sold in the current system has to be trained by someone with an active account, and at as low as 10% return why would I ever create a token like that for any price a rational person would consider?).
|
|
Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two Reckoning Star Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:22:34 -
[1291] - Quote
If this new system does happen, would we still have the old character bazar?
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
131
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:23:23 -
[1292] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:People dont quit eve because skill points prevent them to play. Just as nobody buys from the CB, because it doesn't get you anything but SP.
|
Varrik Kayne
Ghost Operations Tactical Unit
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:23:27 -
[1293] - Quote
I think it's just best that you remove this awful Post and pretend it never happened, then cloak up and hide... like forever. |
J Livermore
Flaming Sideburns Social Club
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:25:00 -
[1294] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:J Livermore wrote:Not coming yet.
But if you think this will be last step you're kinda naive. So we're back to slippery slope? Maybe instead of me being naive you're just too cynical.
I hope you're right and I'm too cynical. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:25:12 -
[1295] - Quote
NerdusMaximus wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Question, how often have you protested the existence of PLEX? PLEX and the Character Bazaar are a necessary evil - because the players will do it anyway. This goes from sanitizing and tolerating a crappy market to actively encouraging it. In a perfect world PLEX and the Bazaar wouldn't need to exist. Even if we hold that position, by creating an official process for it CCP already moved beyond simple tolerance to being complicit with and policing transfers.
Further this way we can get some gameplay out of them. Can't scam on character transfers, but skill packets? Sounds very much so.
|
Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two Reckoning Star Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:25:33 -
[1296] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:I dont know if it is really complex to see or just plain looking the other way.
I have a char with X SP. Today I can buy in the Bazaar a char with X+Y SP under the penalty that everyone can see with a little intel that my char is a bought one. That is still buying SP, but in a kinda messy way. Just as the dev says.
I have a char with X SP. After the theoric implementation of this, I buy a thing (whatever it may be) that adds SP to this char and it end up with X + Y SP. We just removed the penalty and we have something that only represents the act of add SP to a char.
That is a SP token by definition. IT does not matter how it got to the market. It is like refined ore. It wont stop being refined ore just because you bought it instead of refining yourself.
I think it's important to note that the new system will also tax skill points, so while you are adding Y to your character someone else just lost Y + penalty
|
Indy Rider
Sudden Buggery
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:26:00 -
[1297] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:I feel sorry for this game i really do its at rock bottom.
Can I buy some SP off you? |
Gunrunner1775
Interstellar Engineering and Electronics INC
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:27:42 -
[1298] - Quote
Pay to win = create something from nothing and paying IRL cash for it (ie Everquest buy lv 85 toon with max AA and full set of gear, think even world of warcraft had such were could just bump up a toon to max level or something)
Dont quite think this equates to pay to win, as it is not createing skill points out of thin air and giveing them to someone |
Laendra
Universalis Imperium The Bastion
75
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:28:44 -
[1299] - Quote
OMG not only no, but HELL NO. I can't believe you guys even presented this after P2W scandal from a few years ago...
The absolute most I would want (which would be completely awesome)...
Placing some kind of "Neural Net Token" on the contract system (auction or wts).
What this entails is transferring your character (for 2 plex) into the Neural Net, so that only the skills trained come along with it. This deposits a Neural Net Token into your redeeming system that you can redeem and put on contract.
Players can view the contents of the Neural Net Token to see the skill breakdown while it is on contract. Once a player wins the Token, they transfer it to a character on the account to which they want the pilot, and then can extract the pilot from the Neural Net into a blank clone, at which point they are able to set appearance, name, etc. as they see fit.
If you are the creator of the token, you can restore your character completely from the token if you change your mind, and the Plex come back to your redeeming system.
Please, please, for the love of God, do NOT implement what you proposed. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:28:55 -
[1300] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:I dont know if it is really complex to see or just plain looking the other way.
I have a char with X SP. Today I can buy in the Bazaar a char with X+Y SP under the penalty that everyone can see with a little intel that my char is a bought one. That is still buying SP, but in a kinda messy way. Just as the dev says.
I have a char with X SP. After the theoric implementation of this, I buy a thing (whatever it may be) that adds SP to this char and it end up with X + Y SP. We just removed the penalty and we have something that only represents the act of add SP to a char.
That is a SP token by definition. IT does not matter how it got to the market. It is like refined ore. It wont stop being refined ore just because you bought it instead of refining yourself. The only penalty imposed before in your example is a link to your original identity, whereas buying the SP remains with your original identity, so that's a non-issue. Unless you are suggesting the idea that someone needs outed for buying SP (which is easily bypassed using an alt to facilitate the trade) or that this comes with some automatic negative?
What's the actual penalty? |
|
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
695
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:30:15 -
[1301] - Quote
The logic behind people saying they're going to quit is mind-boggling.
Ugggghhhh MORE people to compete with, no thanks.
Why are you playing an MMO when the prospect of more competition, more interaction leads you to want to pack up and go home?
cuz ur bad and the only chance you ever stood was thanks to your "i got here first" advantage. |
Jerika Bodet
Kingdom of Glory
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:34:15 -
[1302] - Quote
Someone told me the end of the World was coming soon. I laughed, but the I saw this post and knew it to be true! |
JetStream Drenard
Black Fox Marauders
68
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:37:27 -
[1303] - Quote
CCP respectfully,
My statement is from the point of view of a die hard Eve PvPer.
I think you took a great idea that is assisting new player retention and missed the mark completely. About skill trading, I honestly don't care, though I do think the SP cap on the usefulness of this program is a bit onerous. There are two sides to the debate, and both sides have merit. But what you seemed to have missed or written off, is the fitting/ capacitor/ some support skills are a HUGE roadblock to new players. Essentially, not every future Eve Bro will be able to afford the pay to play SP structure. And yes, I know you increased some of those skills recently, but you did not go far enough.
To break this down, at least half the engineering skills, the basic tanking skills, and some of the navigation skills, and target management are a many months long roadblock to new characters being able to focus their training into flying their ships and equipment in a useful manner. Basically any skill that allows for fitting, as well as, any skill required to fit a t2 tank, and have the most possible HP. This hurdle is long and torturous to new bro's, and other than being a required train, they are absolutely pointlessly mandatory. I would seriously compare them to the learning skills of old, because they are similar in a lot of ways by being mandatory and then forgotten.
This really is pay to play in those first crucial months of new bro development if you don't do away with these skills completely. I want you to make money, and I will not complain if you keep the SP sales in order to do so as long as you address one of the real issues here in a meaningful way. Even the bro's who cannot drop a couple hundred bucks at the beginning to skill up, should not have to fly **** fit ships or tackle for months on end waiting for these necessary skills to train so that they can fly the same doctrines and fits as everyone else in their corp.
Yes. I really do feel that these skills are an enormous roadblock to new players that have them sitting in station or unable to participate in fleets in the way they prefer, and flying bastardized fits, for many months on end at the beginning of their Eve careers. Fitting skills are cancer to new PvPers.
I would even suggest an annual increase to the initial SP allotment of newly created characters to further assist them in catching up to the thousands of old players that have years head start on them in this game.
That is all. I still love you guys. |
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp Chao3 Alliance
299
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:39:14 -
[1304] - Quote
Sasha Sen wrote:If this new system does happen, would we still have the old character bazar?
I do hope that, in the long run, the character bazaar is removed.
The main reason is that there are things that buyers do not see about the characters they buy there, like rep or bad killboard, or spying activities, and they are stuck with an expensive character with a bad history without having any idea about it when they buy it.
The neural skill packages will not have this history with them, and as such will be a much better tool for those that chose to spend money over spemding time because their gaming time is more limited than their wallet. This is not pay to win, as the skill list a toon has does not make a player good at the game itself. Also, these are not skill created out of thin air, as someone would have had to accumuluate these skills, and it favors younger players.
Eve is a sci fi experience, and it is not very difficult to envision some neural tech stuff to make skill a commodity that can be traded, like everything in Eve. Many sci fi themed stories already have instantaneous skill acquisition, so why not Eve?
What make a character unique is not the skills they have, but their experiences in game.
"surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope...
|
NeoShocker
Oppose Militancy and Neutralize Invasion. Exodus.
216
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:39:40 -
[1305] - Quote
I don't agree with this idea CCP. Sorry :( As a pilot of close to 10 years, I made my choice to train. There is no real such thing as a mistake of training wrong skill because you will eventually need them.
However, since CSM is my representative to my game and if, short by miracle, 50% of the CSM likes the idea, then I would probably be open to such ideas, but it appears its not a very popular feature you are proposing CCP and I also very disagree with it. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3521
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:43:23 -
[1306] - Quote
Saisin wrote:Sasha Sen wrote:If this new system does happen, would we still have the old character bazar?
I do hope that, in the long run, the character bazaar is removed. The main reason is that there are things that buyers do not see about the characters they buy there, like rep or bad killboard, or spying activities, and they are stuck with an expensive character with a bad history without having any idea about it when they buy it. The neural skill packages will not have this history with them, and as such will be a much better tool for those that chose to spend money over spemding time because their gaming time is more limited than their wallet. This is not pay to win, as the skill list a toon has does not make a player good at the game itself. Also, these are not skill created out of thin air, as someone would have had to accumuluate these skills, and it favors younger players. Eve is a sci fi experience, and it is not very difficult to envision some neural tech stuff to make skill a commodity that can be traded, like everything in Eve. Many sci fi themed stories already have instantaneous skill acquisition, so why not Eve? What make a character unique is not the skills they have, but their experiences in game.
It would likely stay unless CCP removes it. Things like standings would make it viable. That and buying a well trained character will almost always be cheaper, provided the SP are not "wasted.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6851
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:43:29 -
[1307] - Quote
If only we could get all our newbies to post...
Maybe if we incentivized them with SP packets...
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3521
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:44:41 -
[1308] - Quote
NeoShocker wrote:I don't agree with this idea CCP. Sorry :( As a pilot of close to 10 years, I made my choice to train. There is no real such thing as a mistake of training wrong skill because you will eventually need them.
Well...will not the people who buy SP packets make the same choices?
Seriously people talk about choice as if this kind of thing will remove choice when allocating SP. Talk about being rather dumb.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
55
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:46:02 -
[1309] - Quote
Identity is one penalty. I am just ilustrating that it is not a "sole thing", it is pattern.
I make use of CB regularely, and the reason I do is the reason I dont like it. It allows people to benefit from something I offer, in a detrimental way, to what I could call literally "Character Building".
I am not saying CB is anything better than SP token sale. What I am saying, again, it is a step towards other things caused or demanded by it.
People dont quit for things they consider part of the package. If you know there is a skill timer, and it is a feature of the game, then you wont rage on it. You rage on it only if you somehow joined under the impression it is avoidable given some circumstance.
As soon as skill become easy, it will be irrelevant, and then will be absent. That is the natural consequence, as again, when you remove the need for skill training, after you have enough people who never had it, you wont start having it again. It is what we call here in the south "Acquired Right Mentality".
Tell me, if you remove skill from EVE, which has already no progression in any other form, how you impose obstacles to be overcome in order to acquire and enlist effort from a player ? That is the first paradigm of WoWnization of EVE.
I am not saying this idea by itself is a problem. The problem is once you accept this, it is all downhill from there. You will create "Skill Farms", "Skill Vampires", and the X benefit you give to new players will be 10X benefit to veterans. The overall universe will adjust itself, and Skill which was given to benefit chars to achieve a point will render that point irrelevant, so they will face another obstacle, and the only way it stops is to remove all obstacles.
Again, it is like credit card of Skill points. Once you first used the credit, you have no credit anymore, you just have taxes and delayed payment of purchases. If you use it as credit, at some point you will have no money, no credit and an huge debit.
In a EVE of high tech full functional optmal skill market, skill is a matter of buying, becomes irrelevant, removable altogether, and with it, everything that was put there for it, by it or from it. Might aswell call New Eden New Tyria or New Azeroth.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Akako Higanjima
Total Insecurity
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:47:06 -
[1310] - Quote
The idea of skill-point exchange/trade is interesting, but the only thing the current system will do is further separate people in large alliances from smaller ones. It'll effectively be the death of any corp or alliance that cannot afford to keep feeding their corp members SP, as they won't be able to compete with those that can. The character bazaar, while similar, has its own drawbacks - namely in the form of shady character history or a bad name. This though - there's very few drawbacks to simply buying SP to bypass training time. Hell, you'll even save money on subscription fees, assuming you're not already PLEXing.
Yes, player skill is also very definitely involved, and SP count doesn't make the pilot. But if you've got the ability to simply grab more SP when needed (or more accurately, to have a wealthy corp or alliance grab SP for you), it allows for players/corps/alliances/whatever to very quickly promote newer pilots into ships that can be incredibly destructive, but are effectively point-and-shoot. Just inject the free SP, allocate it to whatever you damn well please, fleet up, and F1 away.
All in all, the idea has some merit and shouldn't be dismissed outright, but it needs a serious rework from what we were presented with here. The benefits do not outweigh the costs, by any means.
Perhaps selling a skill itself - or having the SP not be unallocated - might be an interesting compromise. For example, let's say I train up... I dunno, Jump Drive Calibration. Everyone hates that skill. Now, I extract 500k SP from Jump Drive Calibration and sell it. If that SP that I've extracted from my own JDC skill could only be used for the buyer's JDC skill, then that leaves a lot less room for exploitation than just "Here's free SP, go put it in whatever the hell you want" - you have to find a seller who's selling the specific skill you want, and even then, chances are good that you'll need to find several sellers for longer, more complicated skills. It would sort of work in a similar vein to the current character bazaar - you have to shop around for the skills you need, rather than just having a win button that can be injected anywhere. |
|
Landrik Blake
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:50:20 -
[1311] - Quote
I like the idea of being able to respec my character, or liquidating my unused alts to sell for ISK or inject into my main. However, when I consider the full implications of open skillpoint trading, I die a little inside.
There are players out there with hundreds of billions, even trillions of ISK to burn on this, and even when you account for the fact that all the skillpoints have to come from other characters, there will always be a market for it. This means that the rich can accelerate their training at a faster rate than the poor, and that is Pay-to-Win. This is the sort of thing that will cause riots in Jita.
If you want an in-client mechanism to trade characters, then make characters a tradeable item on the market. If you want the option to customize the new character, then have a mechanism to rename the character after purchase (this would be used as a general mechanic to shed bad reputations, but it's not unrealistic to have people change their identity for a cost). I think there's already an item you can get from the NEX Store to re-do a character's appearance.
If we must have skillpoint trading, then it should maintain the relationship to the skill. For example, extract 10,000 skillpoints from your Mining Frigate skill and sell them as Mining Frigate skillpoints, only usable on the Mining Frigate skill. That way, someone buying skillpoints for Capital Ships means someone else is losing skillpoints in Capital Ships. But even that is probably going too far. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1646
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:50:27 -
[1312] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Tell me, if you remove skill from EVE, which has already no progression in any other form, how you impose obstacles to be overcome in order to acquire and enlist effort from a player ? That is the first paradigm of WoWnization of EVE. There is little merit in entertaining slippery slope hypotheticals, especially those not in CCP's interest. The creation of SP from nowhere or the elimination of the character advancement are so out of their interest by my reasoning that there seems to be no reason to entertain it.
Aside from of course CCP wanting to end Eve, but at that point the discussion is still pretty pointless.
|
Laodell
Executable Inc.
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:50:38 -
[1313] - Quote
Quote:There will be a new item type called GÇÿTransneural Skill PacketGÇÖ that can be consumed to give any character unallocated skillpoints
That's a very clever way to say you can now buy SP with cash after some exchanges and taxes.
Yea, that's just really offensive, to put so much time into your toon and then have that effort and agonizing over which skill to train next into so much currency. Most of Eve Online is an investment of significant cerebral equity of which SP is a dominant measurement of time actively spent investing in your character and the goals you set for yourself in the alternate reality we call a game.
You can already buy everything else in the game for cash through the PLEX system. The GÇÿTransneural Skill PacketGÇÖ is just another item on the market.
I will be a very sad panda if my favorite alternate reality is hurting so much for cash that it's masters would have to do that. Convert your backend to Linux if you have to. You will save so much money not having to rent a 'licence' for each and every server. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3521
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:52:28 -
[1314] - Quote
Akako Higanjima wrote:The idea of skill-point exchange/trade is interesting, but the only thing the current system will do is further separate people in large alliances from smaller ones. It'll effectively be the death of any corp or alliance that cannot afford to keep feeding their corp members SP, as they won't be able to compete with those that can.
I'm sorry this sounds like complete horseshit to me. It sounds like you assume the supply of SP on the market will be infinite when in fact it simply cannot be.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3521
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:55:15 -
[1315] - Quote
Laodell wrote:Quote:There will be a new item type called GÇÿTransneural Skill PacketGÇÖ that can be consumed to give any character unallocated skillpoints
That's a very clever way to say you can now buy SP with cash after some exchanges and taxes. Yea, that's just really offensive, to put so much time into your toon and then have that effort and agonizing over which skill to train next into so much currency. Most of Eve Online is an investment of significant cerebral equity of which SP is a dominant measurement of time actively spent investing in your character and the goals you set for yourself in the alternate reality we call a game. You can already buy everything else in the game for cash through the PLEX system. The GÇÿTransneural Skill PacketGÇÖ is just another item on the market. I will be a very sad panda if my favorite alternate reality is hurting so much for cash that it's masters would have to do that. Convert your backend to Linux if you have to. You will save so much money not having to rent a 'licence' for each and every server.
Okay, you failed at reading comprehension. The only way to fill a Transnueral Skill Packet is to drain skills from an existing character.
As such the amount of "SP" on the market will be limited. By definition. Anybody doing any "reasoning" (and I use that term very lightly as very few are using reason ITT) who is assuming this is a blithering idiot.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1646
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:56:12 -
[1316] - Quote
Laodell wrote:That's a very clever way to say you can now buy SP with cash after some exchanges and taxes. This is actually backwards, you can sell SP with cash, not buy it. Also how does having SP to allocate remove or lessen the need to determine training?
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deadsilent
POS Party
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:56:38 -
[1317] - Quote
No this is a horrible idea. keep it so the skill points stay on the character that trained them. These skills useful or not are what make the character who are we. you want to just chop characters in to bits a pieces to sell on the market is horrible idea. ((CCP Rise & Team Size Matters)) I bet you keep Minmatar slaves around just so you have a stock pile of BIO-MASS ready at a moments notice. MEH Amarrian SCUM
Love DeadSilent |
Epic Name
The Scope Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:56:50 -
[1318] - Quote
Finally! I wholeheartedly support this awesome change. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2781
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 03:57:41 -
[1319] - Quote
I like to post from time to time so i can't really tell you all what i think about your reaction here, but feel free to swing by reddit where we can talk openly about how incredibly wrong you are.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Akako Higanjima
Total Insecurity
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:00:29 -
[1320] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:I'm sorry this sounds like complete horseshit to me. It sounds like you assume the supply of SP on the market will be infinite when in fact it simply cannot be.
Of course it won't be; that's a given. I suppose the point I was trying to make was that of the "x" number of SP Packets that become available, the bulk of them will go to corps/alliances that do have an overabundance of disposable ISK - leaving players in smaller, start-up corps, where funding is much tighter, at a distinct disadvantage. |
|
Veishe
Rubbish
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:02:22 -
[1321] - Quote
Buying or re-locating SP means
YOU CAN GET REIMBURSED YOUR MISTAKE WITH RL MONEY.
So i think this can be cool nonlogically, but let's think a little bit more.
What do bros think If someone can clean wrong killboard, corp history by just paying isk?
This idea has same logic with CCP's disgusting idea; to allow reimburse mistake or loss with real money.
Now you bros will understand what is problem, what is wrong. |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
56
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:03:47 -
[1322] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:Tell me, if you remove skill from EVE, which has already no progression in any other form, how you impose obstacles to be overcome in order to acquire and enlist effort from a player ? That is the first paradigm of WoWnization of EVE. There is little merit in entertaining slippery slope hypotheticals, especially those not in CCP's interest. The creation of SP from nowhere or the elimination of the character advancement are so out of their interest by my reasoning that there seems to be no reason to entertain it. Aside from of course CCP wanting to end Eve, but at that point the discussion is still pretty pointless.
As in many aspects of human Psych+¬ (pardon the french, literally, lol) , you are just isolating an aspect of a broad discussion to make it unimportant as it is if you dont take past into consideration.
A bullet in the air is not deadly. A bullet that has travelled from a gun barrel into the open space in a path that traces from said gun to the forehead of a person is most likely deadly to that person.
Ignoring what we going through, not taken into consideration where we came from, to dismiss the importance of contemplating the outcome, it is one of the things most people do and that is why democracy sucks. Because as part of the group, it does not make you feel any better to just say "I told you so".
This a metachapter of the book "The way I play is the right way to play" which is the bible of Carpie Diem players.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Ocelot Ehecatl
30plus Fidelas Constans
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:04:43 -
[1323] - Quote
I understand the old character transfer system is not perfect, but by God ! ..this is one of the worst new age ideas you have presented us with. Whatever made you think of this one....?
The returns are diminished for veteran players but do you understand the amount of isk they have. They are going to suck it up and get where they want to be. Time based skill training was one of the "unique" features of EVE...and I used to remember the times when i set up my alarm just to wake up and set up new skill to keep the Training Queue running. This got redundant with the new skill queue a.k.a made it easier "dumbing it down" but for pete's sake this is not what I want to see. Unallocated Skill points for Sale ..... This is bad CCP , real. bad. idea !!
Like someone here commented : Character ages and birth dates will become completely meaningless...so no more " Oh look there goes a 2004 character , bet he has a ton of skillpoints" . It was things like this that made EVE so wonderful for a new player. tsk tsk ......CCP |
Kytheria
Rowan Industrial Council
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:05:14 -
[1324] - Quote
Soooo what you're saying is that I could break my 150m sp toon down into 3 perfectly focused 50m sp toons for the cost of cash.
What then was the entire point of training for this long?
It's been said for 60+ pages this is a BAD idea CCP.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3522
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:06:38 -
[1325] - Quote
Akako Higanjima wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:I'm sorry this sounds like complete horseshit to me. It sounds like you assume the supply of SP on the market will be infinite when in fact it simply cannot be.
Of course it won't be; that's a given. I suppose the point I was trying to make was that of the "x" number of SP Packets that become available, the bulk of them will go to corps/alliances that do have an overabundance of disposable ISK - leaving players in smaller, start-up corps, where funding is much tighter, at a distinct disadvantage.
Don't be so sure. Yeah NS alliances can be rolling in ISK, but they may not want to spend it on SP packets for line members. They might, but I doubt it.
And station traders can make buckets full of ISK too.
To be quite honest these kind of market outcomes are extremely hard to predict.
I think the biggest criticism is that a super rich alliance could, given enough SP on the market, try to use it to pre-position alts to move a cap fleet quickly and bypass fatigue mechanics giving them somewhat of an advantage.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Asveron Durr
Vandanian Order
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:06:45 -
[1326] - Quote
Wow, just wow........
CCP have you learned nothing from the summer of rage?
What if that became a year of rage?
Implementing this Skill Packet is NOTHING but the "Golden Ammo" idea CCP that you promised us would never happen. Well as much as i despise certain groups or organiztions for their "roleplay" aspects....i will simply wait and see what you do CCP.......but if this gets implemented....
I might have to reconsider my wish to be here for a few more years and join them....only I wont be doing exactly what they are doing......... Implement this and i will be sure to use all my accounts i own an force you to ban me.....noobies, vets, freighters, barges, exhumers....implementation will be sure to see how much we can destroy and how many carebears we can bomb/force from the game...because at that point i at least simply will not care about the consequences of mass destruction to include rookie systems.
in short.....this bullshit is a slap in the face for ALL Veterans |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
56
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:07:08 -
[1327] - Quote
Veishe wrote:Buying or re-locating SP means
YOU CAN GET REIMBURSED YOUR MISTAKE WITH RL MONEY.
So i think this can be cool nonlogically, but let's think a little bit more.
What do bros think If someone can clean wrong killboard, corp history by just paying isk?
This idea has same logic with CCP's disgusting idea; to allow reimburse mistake or loss with real money.
Now you bros will understand what is problem, what is wrong.
Probably some pvp nut will tell you that Skills are not Kills, they just share spelling. That is the logic for argumentation here.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3522
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:07:40 -
[1328] - Quote
Ocelot Ehecatl wrote:I understand the old character transfer system is not perfect, but by God ! ..this is one of the worst new age ideas you have presented us with. Whatever made you think of this one....?
The returns are diminished for veteran players but do you understand the amount of isk they have. They are going to suck it up and get where they want to be. Time based skill training was one of the "unique" features of EVE...and I used to remember the times when i set up my alarm just to wake up and set up new skill to keep the Training Queue running. This got redundant with the new skill queue a.k.a made it easier "dumbing it down" but for pete's sake this is not what I want to see. Unallocated Skill points for Sale ..... This is bad CCP , real. bad. idea !!
Like someone here commented : Character ages and birth dates will become completely meaningless...so no more " Oh look there goes a 2004 character , bet he has a ton of skillpoints" . It was things like this that made EVE so wonderful for a new player. tsk tsk ......CCP
Even if they have a bunch of ISK unless the price of SP on the market is very low they'll find the character bazaar a much better deal. So...what is the problem?
Oh and birthdates are only loosely correlated with SP. I have a character older than this one but who only has 821,000 SP. I switched over to a combat oriented character when I found out how bad mining sucked.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2783
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:10:43 -
[1329] - Quote
Kytheria wrote:Soooo what you're saying is that I could break my 150m sp toon down into 3 perfectly focused 50m sp toons for the cost of cash. What then was the entire point of training for this long? It's been said for 60+ pages this is a BAD idea CCP.
No seriously, this must be the dumbest thing you've ever posted.
If you trained all that on one alt why would you ever care to break it into 3? Even then, maybe you DO want to break it into 3 decent skilled pilots to vanish into the ether of eve and leave your old life behind. There are reasons to do either but there is no benefit gained either way.
In fact, not to suggest that you didn't read or understand this at all, but if you broke you 150 million sp dude down into 3rds you'd end up with way less due to diminishing returns. You would more likely end up with three 25 million skill point alts after diminishing returns gets you.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2783
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:11:56 -
[1330] - Quote
Asveron Durr wrote:
in short.....this bullshit is a slap in the face for ALL Veterans
No its not stop being a baby.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1646
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:12:15 -
[1331] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Ignoring what we going through, not taken into consideration where we came from, to dismiss the importance of contemplating the outcome, it is one of the things most people do and that is why democracy sucks. Because as part of the group, it does not make you feel any better to just say "I told you so".
This a metachapter of the book "The way I play is the right way to play" which is the bible of Carpie Diem players. That last part is ironic coming from the person suggesting that the status quo is the only means of avoiding the eventual destruction of the skill system. Leaving that aside, there's nothing "we going through" that suggests your outcome is plausible, in isolation or not. That's why it becomes valid to not entertain it.
If not we just waste time entertaining every off the wall conclusion devoid of plausibility, which is anything but productive.
|
Morihei Akachi
Nishida Corporation
181
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:12:22 -
[1332] - Quote
Just adding my two cents here: IGÇÖm against this. For me it devalues the game-experience. Eve used to be built around denying instant gratification, because the experience of not getting what you (believe you) want instantly is actually more rewarding in the long run. This proposal abandons that principle. It makes Eve seem cheaper, more infantile. I'd be sorry to see things go this way.
"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and donGÇÖt belong in Eve Online. (And as for GÇ£scopedGÇ¥ GǪ)
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3522
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:12:24 -
[1333] - Quote
Kytheria wrote:Soooo what you're saying is that I could break my 150m sp toon down into 3 perfectly focused 50m sp toons for the cost of cash. What then was the entire point of training for this long? It's been said for 60+ pages this is a BAD idea CCP.
Nope, after 5 million you only get to recover 20% of the remaining SP. Apparently decreasing returns is completely lost on you.
Are most EVE players just this bad at math?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Slax01
Burning Skies Apocalypse Now.
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:12:31 -
[1334] - Quote
I am personally against this idea. I just want to log my vote with CCP just in case it matters.
I read over the first 12 pages of this thread, then skimmed the next 20 and I can say that all of the arguments, for and against, have already been made.
If you want to do something to help new players stay with the game, double the skills training speed for the first 10mil SP, even quadruple it, and continue to improve the training missions, maybe put together a new skill browser/planner so that they can visualize their training path better, even throw in a fitting tool for ships and modules you don't own.
Don't focus on retaining new players at the cost of losing old ones, and don't underestimate how distasteful this idea is to long term players. |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
56
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:13:29 -
[1335] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Ocelot Ehecatl wrote:I understand the old character transfer system is not perfect, but by God ! ..this is one of the worst new age ideas you have presented us with. Whatever made you think of this one....?
The returns are diminished for veteran players but do you understand the amount of isk they have. They are going to suck it up and get where they want to be. Time based skill training was one of the "unique" features of EVE...and I used to remember the times when i set up my alarm just to wake up and set up new skill to keep the Training Queue running. This got redundant with the new skill queue a.k.a made it easier "dumbing it down" but for pete's sake this is not what I want to see. Unallocated Skill points for Sale ..... This is bad CCP , real. bad. idea !!
Like someone here commented : Character ages and birth dates will become completely meaningless...so no more " Oh look there goes a 2004 character , bet he has a ton of skillpoints" . It was things like this that made EVE so wonderful for a new player. tsk tsk ......CCP Even if they have a bunch of ISK unless the price of SP on the market is very low they'll find the character bazaar a much better deal. So...what is the problem? Oh and birthdates are only loosely correlated with SP. I have a character older than this one but who only has 821,000 SP. I switched over to a combat oriented character when I found out how bad mining sucked.
It was said here, and it is a common knowledge. If I have money, and the difference is not that high, I rather have my own char skill boosted for more ISK than buy "another self" for less. It is only one point.
Skill tokes allow you to mold your SP as you wish, rather than choose a premade not always to your likeing.
You may reconsider a bogus skill boost if it comes with a ugly char, stupid name, a race or bloodline you dont like.
It is very unwise to argument under the impression that your set of values applies to everyone else's.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3522
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:16:35 -
[1336] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Ocelot Ehecatl wrote:I understand the old character transfer system is not perfect, but by God ! ..this is one of the worst new age ideas you have presented us with. Whatever made you think of this one....?
The returns are diminished for veteran players but do you understand the amount of isk they have. They are going to suck it up and get where they want to be. Time based skill training was one of the "unique" features of EVE...and I used to remember the times when i set up my alarm just to wake up and set up new skill to keep the Training Queue running. This got redundant with the new skill queue a.k.a made it easier "dumbing it down" but for pete's sake this is not what I want to see. Unallocated Skill points for Sale ..... This is bad CCP , real. bad. idea !!
Like someone here commented : Character ages and birth dates will become completely meaningless...so no more " Oh look there goes a 2004 character , bet he has a ton of skillpoints" . It was things like this that made EVE so wonderful for a new player. tsk tsk ......CCP Even if they have a bunch of ISK unless the price of SP on the market is very low they'll find the character bazaar a much better deal. So...what is the problem? Oh and birthdates are only loosely correlated with SP. I have a character older than this one but who only has 821,000 SP. I switched over to a combat oriented character when I found out how bad mining sucked. It was said here, and it is a common knowledge. If I have money, and the difference is not that high, I rather have my own char skill boosted for more ISK than buy "another self" for less. It is only one point. Skill tokes allow you to mold your SP as you wish, rather than choose a premade not always to your likeing. You may reconsider a bogus skill boost if it comes with a ugly char, stupid name, a rece or bloodline you dont like. It is very unwise to argument under the impression that your set of values applies to everyone else's.
No, this is just nonsense. If you are buying a character over 5 million SP you will do better in the character bazaar in terms of ISK/SP. The decreasing returns means that the more SP you try to buy the higher ISK/SP you'll spend and if you try to go over 80 million the cost is very high.
Really, learn some math.
Oh, and this change will likely add discipline to the character bazaar. Being sloppy in your SP training if you are selling characters will cost you since buying SP is an option.
Might want to try some economics too.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
marin marinere
No Refunds. SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:16:39 -
[1337] - Quote
This is a journey into money... loads of money.
I'm pleased that it would allow for easier development of my character such that it can have a reasonable about of sp without too much worry over specialization, but this ease undermines the entire investment that goes into the development of a decent character. I'm also somewhat concerned about the degree of abuse that could occur even with diminishing returns for both the impacts of said potential min-maxing and their effect on the market. |
Akako Higanjima
Total Insecurity
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:18:38 -
[1338] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Don't be so sure. Yeah NS alliances can be rolling in ISK, but they may not want to spend it on SP packets for line members. They might, but I doubt it.
And station traders can make buckets full of ISK too.
To be quite honest these kind of market outcomes are extremely hard to predict.
I think the biggest criticism is that a super rich alliance could, given enough SP on the market, try to use it to pre-position alts to move a cap fleet quickly and bypass fatigue mechanics giving them somewhat of an advantage.
I agree. It just seems to me like the entire thing, in its present state, opens far too many avenues for exploitation - though I'll admit that my view is probably somewhat limited, as I'm not privy to what goes on in the logistics of handling supercaps and the like. From my position down here, fairly low on the SP totem pole, as it were... I wouldn't even say it's a bad idea. Just one that needs some reworking and balancing. Needs some checks to be put into place.
Should the whole shebang be scrapped in its entirety? No. I've lost corp members due to their frustration with how long it takes to do anything meaningful, and I'd be more than willing to pass along some of my unused SP to them, so long as some sound mechanics for doing so were in place. But the system definitely needs a bit of... finesse and retouching, before it should be implemented outright.
Which, I suppose, is why we're all here commenting. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3522
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:19:04 -
[1339] - Quote
Slax01 wrote:I am personally against this idea. I just want to log my vote with CCP just in case it matters.
I read over the first 12 pages of this thread, then skimmed the next 20 and I can say that all of the arguments, for and against, have already been made.
If you want to do something to help new players stay with the game, double the skills training speed for the first 10mil SP, even quadruple it, and continue to improve the training missions, maybe put together a new skill browser/planner so that they can visualize their training path better, even throw in a fitting tool for ships and modules you don't own.
Don't focus on retaining new players at the cost of losing old ones, and don't underestimate how distasteful this idea is to long term players.
Sorry doubling SP training for new characters up to 1.6 million SP (IIRC) was a thing, but was removed because older players were abusing it.
And frankly I have seen few valid arguments against it except those based on ignorance from people who pretty obviously did not read the dev blog.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
85
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:19:52 -
[1340] - Quote
Oh man the potential to quickly make hordes of gank alts is scary... |
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3522
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:21:08 -
[1341] - Quote
Akako Higanjima wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Don't be so sure. Yeah NS alliances can be rolling in ISK, but they may not want to spend it on SP packets for line members. They might, but I doubt it.
And station traders can make buckets full of ISK too.
To be quite honest these kind of market outcomes are extremely hard to predict.
I think the biggest criticism is that a super rich alliance could, given enough SP on the market, try to use it to pre-position alts to move a cap fleet quickly and bypass fatigue mechanics giving them somewhat of an advantage. I agree. It just seems to me like the entire thing, in its present state, opens far too many avenues for exploitation - though I'll admit that my view is probably somewhat limited, as I'm not privy to what goes on in the logistics of handling supercaps and the like. From my position down here, fairly low on the SP totem pole, as it were... I wouldn't even say it's a bad idea. Just one that needs some reworking and balancing. Needs some checks to be put into place. Should the whole shebang be scrapped in its entirety? No. I've lost corp members due to their frustration with how long it takes to do anything meaningful, and I'd be more than willing to pass along some of my unused SP to them, so long as some sound mechanics for doing so were in place. But the system definitely needs a bit of... finesse and retouching, before it should be implemented outright. Which, I suppose, is why we're all here commenting.
Oh, and SP/ISK the character bazaar is the better deal. If anything this will tighten up the character bazaar--i.e. "wasted" SP will be penalized due to this change.
This will result in 2 effects:
1. People who train characters for sale will pay more attention to the skills they train and not waste any 2. Characters with wasted SP will be cheaper...and even such characters could still be viable for people.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3522
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:22:25 -
[1342] - Quote
Kinete Jenius wrote:Oh man the potential to quickly make hordes of gank alts is scary...
You going to pay for the extra accounts too?
If so, then damn CCP is like an evil genius...more accounts more PLEX being sold...more money.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
85
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:23:33 -
[1343] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Kinete Jenius wrote:Oh man the potential to quickly make hordes of gank alts is scary... You going to pay for the extra accounts too? If so, then damn CCP is like an evil genius...more accounts more PLEX being sold...more money. I already have 12 active accounts with 12 +4 month trained gank alts. So if anything this is a nerf to me as I wasted plex dual training for 3 months.
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
56
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:25:19 -
[1344] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:Ignoring what we going through, not taken into consideration where we came from, to dismiss the importance of contemplating the outcome, it is one of the things most people do and that is why democracy sucks. Because as part of the group, it does not make you feel any better to just say "I told you so".
This a metachapter of the book "The way I play is the right way to play" which is the bible of Carpie Diem players. That last part is ironic coming from the person suggesting that the status quo is the only means of avoiding the eventual destruction of the skill system. Leaving that aside, there's nothing "we going through" that suggests your outcome is plausible, in isolation or not. That's why it becomes valid to not entertain it. If not we just waste time entertaining every off the wall conclusion devoid of plausibility, which is anything but productive.
Never said the status quo is the best approach. I said the path it is going is not to make it better, than worse.
You gotta stop putting your conclusions of what I say as something I said.
The thing I formatted on your post is just plain wrong. There is plenty of suggestions to that outcome. Skill is being given like it was the end of times. The forum itself has documented the perception that high SP demanding ships and modules are being nerfed while low SP ships and modules are being buffed.
There is a Covert Ops ship you can use as soon as you may train Cloak to lvl 4. There are new ships with compatible power to advanced versions of hulls that require only doubled tech I skills from two racial of a given hull. There are new hulls that are not skill demanding altogether, with bonuses to the extent of those of higher class ships in some ships you can fly more quickly than the upper class ship. There are modules and new attributes that render skill training not a must, like the last change to rigs, the module added to TQ already and the ones you see in SiSi. And as far as going log on SISI not to PVP, and actually testing something, I sense that soon enough, there will be NPCs to take you by the hand. Just like WoW started on MoP.
That is reason enough to consider that skill and progression is being driven to the death row.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Synthiosis
Off Peak Incorporated
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:26:43 -
[1345] - Quote
Here is my pro's and cons analyisis.
Why this could be good.
Quite simply put, if they manage to pull this off correctly, it could not only increase revenue, it could rebalance the game in favour of players who do not have large amounts of money to spend on aquiring highly skilled characters with real life cash. The fact of the matter is, being able to buy extreamly potent characters because you are finacially fortunate enough to do so, does have the inevitable dualistic repercussions of making pvp "harder" for poorer players with much less potent and diversely skills characters, who absoulutely don't need additonal factors working against them. While the factors of player skill and luck do their best to bridge the divide between strong and weak, i feel the main reason that ccp has come forward with this proposal, is because they may feel the game is edging towards P2W due to current nature of the Item & Character markets. Simply put, CCP wants more good fights, and less one sided ones.
Why this could be bad.
Less face it. This is only going to negatively affect character traders and the investors that horde characters. It's going to reduce the value of their stock dramatically, and anybody in this area of business probably doesn't like these changes one bit. However, I think if they are actively disputing any changes, i think it is INCREDIBLY selfish and they are denying potentially immensly positive benifits to the future equality and balance of Eve Online, simply for personal gain. I have no sympathy.
In conclussion, the transnueral thingy sounds cool, but I would prefer there be a way to actively gain additional unallocated skill points through the pursuit of content. Maybe through the processing of player corpses or something with some balances. But being able to buy skill points instead of characters, doesn't really change much in regards to the negative consequences of extreme financial inequality within the game. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
131
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:27:36 -
[1346] - Quote
Akako Higanjima wrote:Which, I suppose, is why we're all here commenting. I'd say most people here are commenting just because they're scared some newbies Important Internets Spaceship Number will get closer to the veterans Important Internets Spaceship Number without the appropriate paying of dues and kissing of rings.
Estevan Andrard wrote:That is reason enough to consider that skill and progression is being driven to the death row. We can only hope. |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:32:50 -
[1347] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Laodell wrote:That's a very clever way to say you can now buy SP with cash after some exchanges and taxes. This is actually backwards, you can sell SP with cash, not buy it. Also how does having SP to allocate remove or lessen the need to determine training?
If this isn't brilliant sarcasm can you please enlighten us as to what a transaction would look like where I am paying someone to take something from me ? i.e. 'Sell with Cash".
Also, if I am selling, then there has to be a buyer, or CCP would have to create an NPC class solely to Buy SP at a rate that CCP or a logarithm dictates.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3522
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:33:30 -
[1348] - Quote
Kinete Jenius wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Kinete Jenius wrote:Oh man the potential to quickly make hordes of gank alts is scary... You going to pay for the extra accounts too? If so, then damn CCP is like an evil genius...more accounts more PLEX being sold...more money. I already have 12 active accounts with 12 +4 month trained gank alts. So if anything this is a nerf to me as I wasted plex dual training for 3 months.
Sheesh, 6 of one, half dozen of the other....
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Utencil
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:37:55 -
[1349] - Quote
Just give us the option to change names... pls :)
Or even gender. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6851
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:37:59 -
[1350] - Quote
Such a lust for SP.... WHOOooooo~~~
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
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DeadNite
2 Girls - 1 Corp
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:40:06 -
[1351] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:I like to post from time to time so i can't really tell you all what i think about your reaction here, but feel free to swing by reddit where we can talk openly about how incredibly wrong you are.
(this post is directed at players, not developers, i think the idea itself is amazing, and that comes from somebody with 162 million perfectly placed skill points that I've crafted over years. I can't even imagine how many people would have stayed if what they want to do was around when they tried EVE. The collected player reaction here is wrong, and not just wrong, its like a flailing spastic paint huffer on a weekend pass from rehab kinda wrong).
Not that I matter in the slightest as far as opinion goes, but I wholeheartedly agree with this statement after having never purchased a character and treading through 100+ million skill points. It was a long road and I would frankly not want to have to do it again in today's Eve.
Those of you who disagree with a system like this are bafflingly disconnected from how utter hellish it was as a new player who was either stuck on tackle duty, ewar duty, or uninvited to fleet activities because you didn't have enough skill points to fly something "useful." This doesn't even begin to touch the subject of the fact that you were years away from the doctrine versatility that is required of a modern day eve player.
For shame. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3522
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:41:18 -
[1352] - Quote
Utencil wrote:Just give us the option to change names... pls :)
Or even gender.
No, not without some form of tracking such things.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1646
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:42:03 -
[1353] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Never said the status quo is the best approach. I said the path it is going is not to make it better, than worse.
You gotta stop putting your conclusions of what I say as something I said.
The thing I formatted on your post is just plain wrong. There is plenty of suggestions to that outcome. Skill is being given like it was the end of times. The forum itself has documented the perception that high SP demanding ships and modules are being nerfed while low SP ships and modules are being buffed.
There is a Covert Ops ship you can use as soon as you may train Cloak to lvl 4. There are new ships with compatible power to advanced versions of hulls that require only doubled tech I skills from two racial of a given hull. There are new hulls that are not skill demanding altogether, with bonuses to the extent of those of higher class ships in some ships you can fly more quickly than the upper class ship. There are modules and new attributes that render skill training not a must, like the last change to rigs, the module added to TQ already and the ones you see in SiSi. And as far as going log on SISI not to PVP, and actually testing something, I sense that soon enough, there will be NPCs to take you by the hand. Just like WoW started on MoP.
That is reason enough to consider that skill and progression is being driven to the death row. SP on character creation is actually still not as high as at times in the past. Pirate ships have always had 2 T1 racial skill requirements and had abilities beyond T1. What ships are you referring to? What module as well? Lets not forget most T2 mods added recently require lvl V skills whereas comparable counterparts if any had lvl IV (remote hull reps vs armor and shield counterparts). Also based on what are these assumptions about NPC driven PvP coming from? |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
56
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:45:11 -
[1354] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Akako Higanjima wrote:Which, I suppose, is why we're all here commenting. I'd say most people here are commenting just because they're scared some newbies Important Internets Spaceship Number will get closer to the veterans Important Internets Spaceship Number without the appropriate paying of dues and kissing of rings. Estevan Andrard wrote:That is reason enough to consider that skill and progression is being driven to the death row. We can only hope.
For the first argument, that is not entirely accurate. I can see that many people, including not veterans, are generally concerned about how the boosting of new players is happening rather than the fact that it is happening.
I make a point of selling my chars each 2 years. I have 2013, 2011, 2009 chars moving around. I actually had the "Mind Blowning" moment of seeing a person being ganked by among others, two of my old chars.
This change by itself could be positive for me personally, as I could invest in milking SP from my chars instead of selling them. It is like just opening a milk market where previously you had to slaughter the cow. The problem is that I see the milk market as a booming one. People wll run for SP as there would be no tomorrow, and the aftermath of that is the inevitable destruction of SP mechanics. It has happened to more than a dozen mmos, and it was just like that.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Madd Adda
129
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:45:32 -
[1355] - Quote
There's only 2 things i think that would need to change:
1.Biomass the character after extraction of SP. Keep the amount of SP each packet has, and diminishing returns on the higher SP characters the same. 2. Make it so that only characters that are of a certain age eligible for extraction. Let's say 1 year from the time of creation before you can use an extractor.
Carebear extraordinaire
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marin marinere
No Refunds. SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:47:41 -
[1356] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Akako Higanjima wrote:Which, I suppose, is why we're all here commenting. I'd say most people here are commenting just because they're scared some newbies Important Internets Spaceship Number will get closer to the veterans Important Internets Spaceship Number without the appropriate paying of dues and kissing of rings. Estevan Andrard wrote:That is reason enough to consider that skill and progression is being driven to the death row. We can only hope.
Yeah, it's all rather arbitrary, but the fact of the matter is it isn't just kissing of rings, it's customer loyalty over time in return for prestige..... this screws with the "Over time" part as one can now simply pay ccp for x accounts/training slots and then start funneling that sp into a single character by giving ccp additional money, with the only investment needed being the base 5m sp which can also be bought from other individuals. |
Maraner
The Executioners Shadow Cartel
321
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:48:07 -
[1357] - Quote
Firstly NO..
After that but please correct my logic if I miss something or it is faulty but haven't we already paid once to generate the SP on our accounts? Either through subscription or PLEX etc?
Is CCP saying that I don't really own the SP? that if all of a sudden the game enables movement of SP I need to pay CCP again for the privilege of moving stuff?
Jeez thanks a bunch for that. I've been paying to play this game for over a decade, and as a reward I can pay some more if I want to move the SP that I paid to generate in the first place to another character.
Unreal. Seriously. Just call it what it is, SP for PLEX or something.
1 PLEX = 1 mil SP. At least have some honesty about it all.
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
56
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:49:21 -
[1358] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:Never said the status quo is the best approach. I said the path it is going is not to make it better, than worse.
You gotta stop putting your conclusions of what I say as something I said.
The thing I formatted on your post is just plain wrong. There is plenty of suggestions to that outcome. Skill is being given like it was the end of times. The forum itself has documented the perception that high SP demanding ships and modules are being nerfed while low SP ships and modules are being buffed.
There is a Covert Ops ship you can use as soon as you may train Cloak to lvl 4. There are new ships with compatible power to advanced versions of hulls that require only doubled tech I skills from two racial of a given hull. There are new hulls that are not skill demanding altogether, with bonuses to the extent of those of higher class ships in some ships you can fly more quickly than the upper class ship. There are modules and new attributes that render skill training not a must, like the last change to rigs, the module added to TQ already and the ones you see in SiSi. And as far as going log on SISI not to PVP, and actually testing something, I sense that soon enough, there will be NPCs to take you by the hand. Just like WoW started on MoP.
That is reason enough to consider that skill and progression is being driven to the death row. SP on character creation is actually still not as high as at times in the past. Pirate ships have always had 2 T1 racial skill requirements and had abilities beyond T1. What ships are you referring to? What module as well? Lets not forget most T2 mods added recently require lvl V skills whereas comparable counterparts if any had lvl IV (remote hull reps vs armor and shield counterparts). Also based on what are these assumptions about NPC driven PvP coming from?
Lets discard everything that does not help in your argument. Lets obliviate the fact that many things you cite are not long lived in eve. If you need some context, you oughta know that even plex were inexistent for a long time in EVE history.
In fact it is a good idea. Let me just do the same you do and just plain deny things plain simple, with no reason whatsoever.
Better yet, lets just obliviate your non argument altogether. Have a nice day.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3522
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:52:03 -
[1359] - Quote
Maraner wrote:Firstly NO..
After that but please correct my logic if I miss something or it is faulty but haven't we already paid once to generate the SP on our accounts? Either through subscription or PLEX etc?
Is CCP saying that I don't really own the SP? that if all of a sudden the game enables movement of SP I need to pay CCP again for the privilege of moving stuff?
Jeez thanks a bunch for that. I've been paying to play this game for over a decade, and as a reward I can pay some more if I want to move the SP that I paid to generate in the first place to another character.
Unreal. Seriously. Just call it what it is, SP for PLEX or something.
1 PLEX = 1 mil SP. At least have some honesty about it all.
Considering you don't "own" your character(s) yeah, you don't own the SP either.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
56
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:53:23 -
[1360] - Quote
Maraner wrote:Firstly NO..
After that but please correct my logic if I miss something or it is faulty but haven't we already paid once to generate the SP on our accounts? Either through subscription or PLEX etc?
Is CCP saying that I don't really own the SP? that if all of a sudden the game enables movement of SP I need to pay CCP again for the privilege of moving stuff?
Jeez thanks a bunch for that. I've been paying to play this game for over a decade, and as a reward I can pay some more if I want to move the SP that I paid to generate in the first place to another character.
Unreal. Seriously. Just call it what it is, SP for PLEX or something.
1 PLEX = 1 mil SP. At least have some honesty about it all.
No their are not. They are saying they will start allowing people to sell SP insteand of having to sell the whole char.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1646
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:56:37 -
[1361] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Lets discard everything that does not help in your argument. Lets obliviate the fact that many things you cite are not long lived in eve. If you need some context, you oughta know that even plex were inexistent for a long time in EVE history. Or you could answer the questions rather than misdirect.
Beyond the questions I addressed your points directly; the answers don't match your position. Stating facts doesn't discard anything. Obfuscating on the other hand is effectively admitting you don't have a point. |
Skebet
Evolution Northern Coalition.
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:58:56 -
[1362] - Quote
To me the saddest part of all of this is that CCP itself doesn't seem to understand that Eve is not a spaceship simulation game; that is, characters are not meaningless bags of fungible SP. Eve is a role-playing game; each character has a unique history, reputation, quirks, oddities - a real personality of its own. If you want to control a character completely, make it yourself. Buying and selling entire characters works because each character is preserved as a unique entity. Devolving characters into sacks of points that can be bought and sold with granularity will completely destroy any sense of identity and, perhaps worse, any individual sense of progression.
Hilmar, the rest of you, please see what it means to create a true role playing universe and then potentially destroy its sense of place and soul. Realize this is a mistake and don't do it. The long term consequences will be dire. Please believe us and stop this plan.
With love and respect Skebet |
Marech Bhayanaka
Misfits United I N G L O R I O U S
65
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 04:59:07 -
[1363] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Marech Bhayanaka wrote:The only thing that makes the loooooong wait for skills to train bearable, is the knowledge that every other character was made exactly the same way. Make it possible to buy SP and suddenly everyone who cannot afford them will feel like a second class citizen, watching new characters fly past them in abilities.
Even if the number of people actually doing it is small, the perception will be large. Don't underestimate how this will destroy the feeling of accomplishment people have when they get each new level 5, or how the wait for their next one will seem intolerable when they know others are paying to bypass it.
Marech. Passage of time happens without any human intervention at all. The "sense of accomplishment" for simply letting time exist and take place makes no sense since it would have happened with or without you. Using "time" as the basis for accessibility is ********. That would be like saying whoever the oldest person alive is the one who gets to rule the world because since he's simply existed longest, he's entitled to the best of the best benefits. lol @ the idea of "hooray I did nothing except wait and I'm rewarded!!!!" haha that's so insane.
This feeling is common. Labelling it insane doesn't make it go away. CCP is playing with fire here.
Marech. |
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
137
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 05:06:00 -
[1364] - Quote
In a way this seems to take advantage of new players.
These new pilots get into the game for $20 and then see how much things cost so they spend $20 on a PLEX to buy a cool ships only to learn they can't fly it without spending $20 -or whatever the price will be- to add SP to their toon. If they quit CCP has just milked them for some money just to learn they don't like the game, if my friend told me that about EVE I would have never signed up.
CCP needs to be mindful of how the things look to outsiders.
Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why.
Hunter S. Thompson
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6851
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 05:15:02 -
[1365] - Quote
All this "concern" about new players (who stand to gain the most from the option value). Touching.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Morihei Akachi
Nishida Corporation
184
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 05:16:35 -
[1366] - Quote
DeadNite wrote:Those of you who disagree with a system like this are bafflingly disconnected from how utter hellish it was as a new player who was either stuck on tackle duty, ewar duty, or uninvited to fleet activities because you didn't have enough skill points to fly something "useful." This doesn't even begin to touch the subject of the fact that you were years away from the doctrine versatility that is required of a modern day eve player. Sounds to me like you found yourself as a new player in the wrong kind of corp. Your personal experience is of course entirely valid, but it wasn't in any sense mine, and I donGÇÖt take entirely kindly to being told that it should have been. In my view, you would have had a better time getting to your 100 million if you had explored different play-styles along the way, rather than being obsessed with making yourself fit into the corset of what you apparently believe is the "modern day Eve playerGÇ¥ (as if there were any such thing GǪ). For my part, I have had an excellent time whilst training my current -¦ 50 million, and if I had to start over, I would do (most of) it this way again.
New players who are told that they first need god knows how many million SP before they can even begin to enjoy themselves are being lied to. That's the problem here.
"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and donGÇÖt belong in Eve Online. (And as for GÇ£scopedGÇ¥ GǪ)
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6851
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 05:18:10 -
[1367] - Quote
Morihei Akachi wrote:DeadNite wrote:Those of you who disagree with a system like this are bafflingly disconnected from how utter hellish it was as a new player who was either stuck on tackle duty, ewar duty, or uninvited to fleet activities because you didn't have enough skill points to fly something "useful." This doesn't even begin to touch the subject of the fact that you were years away from the doctrine versatility that is required of a modern day eve player. Sounds to me like you found yourself as a new player in the wrong kind of corp. Your personal experience is of course entirely valid, but it wasn't in any sense mine, and I donGÇÖt take entirely kindly to being told that it should have been. In my view, you would have had a better time getting to your 100 million if you had explored different play-styles along the way, rather than being obsessed with making yourself fit into the corset of what you apparently believe is the "modern day Eve playerGÇ¥ (as if there were any such thing GǪ). For my part, I have had an excellent time whilst training my current -¦ 50 million, and if I had to start over, I would do (most of) it this way again. New players who are told that they first need god knows how many million SP before they can even begin to enjoy themselves are being lied to. That's the problem here. Yeah. Totally with you here.
I enjoyed ewar duty. Jammed** you out ehhhhhhhh~~~
Now I ewar from a ship with a jumpdrive that is itself ewar immune. It's the logical progression to putting isk and sp on field.
**Now I believe the usual flavor is damps. Due to stacking penalties things like webs and painters are usually specialists.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Project.Mayhem.
1212
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 05:22:10 -
[1368] - Quote
Doesn't this mean I can just rip out 500000 skill points every time I train that much and use it to pay for my account? So I can reach a point of "not needing to train anything else" then sell 500k skillpoints every time I train that much?
TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~
Youtube ~ Join Us
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6851
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 05:23:36 -
[1369] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:Doesn't this mean I can just rip out 500000 skill points every time I train that much and use it to pay for my account? So I can reach a point of "not needing to train anything else" then sell 500k skillpoints every time I train that much?
Will be interesting to see how much AUR one of these costs and what the market isk price will be on sale, huh?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Chrome Veinss
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 05:26:00 -
[1370] - Quote
Burl en Daire wrote:In a way this seems to take advantage of new players.
These new pilots get into the game for $20 and then see how much things cost so they spend $20 on a PLEX to buy a cool ships only to learn they can't fly it without spending $20 -or whatever the price will be- to add SP to their toon. If they quit CCP has just milked them for some money just to learn they don't like the game, if my friend told me that about EVE I would have never signed up.
CCP needs to be mindful of how the things look to outsiders.
Those $60 will still be cheaper than paying a subscription for several months on top of grinding the isk to buy the ships though
Ive been playing for almost 3 years and I still cant fly many (most?) ships. I probably wouldnt have started playing if someone had told me i would still be lagging behind 3 years into the game, but I ended up liking it anyway |
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Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Project.Mayhem.
1212
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 05:27:38 -
[1371] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:Doesn't this mean I can just rip out 500000 skill points every time I train that much and use it to pay for my account? So I can reach a point of "not needing to train anything else" then sell 500k skillpoints every time I train that much?
Will be interesting to see how much AUR one of these costs and what the market isk price will be on sale, huh? P.S. Start buying plex now so you can have all the AUR you need!
I would like the idea that people who have played the game for years can live off of their extra skillpoints while still paying a bit for aurum to extract them. It's like a veteran discount. I can see plex soaring even higher though if it's that easy.
TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~
Youtube ~ Join Us
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6851
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 05:27:54 -
[1372] - Quote
Chrome Veinss wrote:Ive been playing for almost 3 years and I still cant fly many (most?) ships. I probably wouldnt have started playing if someone had told me i would still be lagging behind 3 years into the game, but I ended up liking it anyway That's what vince draken and co would've liked, huh. OR BoB or whoever
Isk on field SP on field
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1130
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 05:28:37 -
[1373] - Quote
My thoughts are trying to follow a logical path, so :
If every veteran player knows this is bad, then CCP must know it too.
If CCP doesn't care what the vets are saying, then do they care if the vets quit?
Will new players with 'pay to win' mechanics actually increase the subscription rates?
In a game that's evolved into 'frigates online' who actually needs to buy SP anyway?
Has CCP left this huge business decision in the hands of a 14 year old kid?
The whole sales pitch sounds like it was well thought out, to be presented as, smoke and mirrors with a touch of humor and throw in some big scientific words for spice.
I see 68 pages of "NO" in this blog, but I don't feel like this is actually something the players get to vote on. But IF my vote counts for anything at all, then it's a resounding NO! I think it will devalue all the veteran characters, and eventually devalue the SP themselves in a similar fashion to META 1 modules. The market will be flooded with parted out characters and CCP is the only participant that will actually make money. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6851
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 05:31:12 -
[1374] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:My thoughts are trying to follow a logical path, so :
If every veteran player knows this is bad, then CCP must know it too. Depends which veteran plays you ask eh?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
kraken11 jensen
The Gallant Collective Requiem Eternal
97
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 05:37:26 -
[1375] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:RavenPaine wrote:My thoughts are trying to follow a logical path, so :
If every veteran player knows this is bad, then CCP must know it too. Depends which veteran plays you ask eh?
agree |
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
138
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 05:38:27 -
[1376] - Quote
Chrome Veinss wrote:Burl en Daire wrote:In a way this seems to take advantage of new players.
These new pilots get into the game for $20 and then see how much things cost so they spend $20 on a PLEX to buy a cool ships only to learn they can't fly it without spending $20 -or whatever the price will be- to add SP to their toon. If they quit CCP has just milked them for some money just to learn they don't like the game, if my friend told me that about EVE I would have never signed up.
CCP needs to be mindful of how the things look to outsiders. Those $60 will still be cheaper than paying a subscription for several months on top of grinding the isk to buy the ships though Ive been playing for almost 3 years and I still cant fly many (most?) ships. I probably wouldnt have started playing if someone had told me i would still be lagging behind 3 years into the game, but I ended up liking it anyway
You are correct but I was thinking of the players whom don't make it past the first paid month. Seems like a cash grab. CCP knows the retention rate isn't very high and it is like they are trying to get all they can while they are here. That is my only point. I don't like the idea but I do understand it will help new pilots and make CCP money so I'll just suck it up.
I've been here about 3.5 years and I did understand that it would be a slow burn so the wait isn't such a big deal to me. Most people are attached to their toons and this takes some of that away and I think that is why I don't like the idea.
Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why.
Hunter S. Thompson
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
78
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 05:40:30 -
[1377] - Quote
Synthiosis wrote:
In conclussion,
Is that when you have a eureka moment when someone clobbers you over the head with a brick ?
|
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Project.Mayhem.
1212
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 05:46:47 -
[1378] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Will new players with 'pay to win' mechanics actually increase the subscription rates?
How is this pay to win when it can be done all in game with in-game monetary units? Plex and Aurum can be purchased, as usual, does this make it pay-to-win? Does having better skills mean you instantly win a fight? I don't think so, buying a couple of level 5 skills doesn't make you know how to orbit in range properly or manual-keep-at-range.
Half of the time any skill-intensive ships are only used in large fleets anyhow. This seems like it would just allow new players to get the right ships to join the vets faster. If you are worried about whether you have rapid firing 4 rather than 5 compared to the guy you are fighting in a 1v1 you are doing 1v1s wrong anyhow, and that's the only place differing skills between two players truly matter.
The only way having more skills grants you any "win" by having them is a statistical advantage in small-scale combat and the ability to fly a more varied set of ships. So basically, in 90% of scenarios, which are fleet combat scenarios, this wouldn't result in an instant win, and hence can't really be called "pay to win".
TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~
Youtube ~ Join Us
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1646
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 05:49:41 -
[1379] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:My thoughts are trying to follow a logical path, so :
If every veteran player knows this is bad, then CCP must know it too.
If CCP doesn't care what the vets are saying, then do they care if the vets quit? Only the vets that agree with you count as vets in this instance I suppose.
RavenPaine wrote:The market will be flooded with parted out characters and CCP is the only participant that will actually make money. Well, yes, CCP is the only one making money now, on the product they sell us access to, so that wouldn't be expected to change, nor is it a negative in any way. I'm not really sure if this was supposed to suggest a negative or be a statement of the obvious. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6851
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 05:49:55 -
[1380] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:RavenPaine wrote:Will new players with 'pay to win' mechanics actually increase the subscription rates?
How is this pay to win when it can be done all in game with in-game monetary units? Plex and Aurum can be purchased, as usual, does this make it pay-to-win? Does having better skills mean you instantly win a fight? I don't think so, buying a couple of level 5 skills doesn't make you know how to orbit in range properly or manual-keep-at-range. Half of the time any skill-intensive ships are only used in large fleets anyhow. This seems like it would just allow new players to get the right ships to join the vets faster. If you are worried about whether you have rapid firing 4 rather than 5 compared to the guy you are fighting in a 1v1 you are doing 1v1s wrong anyhow, and that's the only place differing skills between two players truly matter. The thing is usually grind to win.
As mentioned, if they grind and buy SP packets and use it, at least they can't lose it (can't even be alphapodded anymore). If anything, I hope that the poor constantly clueless new people who fall into every pit the veterans always are so concerned about....
perhaps if they spend their grinding isk on some SP, it'll be better than currently where the only thing to spend on is loseable ships. But I'm sure the so concerned vets are fine with that....
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
|
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Project.Mayhem.
1212
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 05:55:03 -
[1381] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:RavenPaine wrote:Will new players with 'pay to win' mechanics actually increase the subscription rates?
How is this pay to win when it can be done all in game with in-game monetary units? Plex and Aurum can be purchased, as usual, does this make it pay-to-win? Does having better skills mean you instantly win a fight? I don't think so, buying a couple of level 5 skills doesn't make you know how to orbit in range properly or manual-keep-at-range. Half of the time any skill-intensive ships are only used in large fleets anyhow. This seems like it would just allow new players to get the right ships to join the vets faster. If you are worried about whether you have rapid firing 4 rather than 5 compared to the guy you are fighting in a 1v1 you are doing 1v1s wrong anyhow, and that's the only place differing skills between two players truly matter. The thing is usually grind to win. As mentioned, if they grind and buy SP packets and use it, at least they can't lose it (can't even be alphapodded anymore). If anything, I hope that the poor constantly clueless new people who fall into every pit the veterans always are so concerned about.... perhaps if they spend their grinding isk on some SP, it'll be better than currently where the only thing to spend on is loseable ships. But I'm sure the so concerned vets are fine with that....
The vast majority of veteran players already have all skills that give a major statistical advantage maxed anyhow, it's not like most players having those maxed would make the game unfair for anyone. The only "winners" would be new players.
TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~
Youtube ~ Join Us
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1709
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 05:58:46 -
[1382] - Quote
How can someone really think by giving the player the possibilities of:
A) slow training B) dump massive amounts of $ into a game you just started and know nothing about
will somehow magically improve the NPE? I say it will just make the devs look greedy like hell and no one will want to invest time into a game where you think you can only really improve with money. This is p2w at its worst and you can't compare it to the character bazaar we have now, because like Rise said, this is almost invisible for new players and you can't improve your own character with it.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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S'Way
1223
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 06:01:49 -
[1383] - Quote
And when the supply of new players started to dry up the players began cannibalizing their alts for SP's.
After re-reading the dev-blog - (which seems to me to be presented as if it's already decided that it's going through, once it can be decided just how much of this idea players will accept) while it may give a short term revenue boost, long term it can only add to the decline of the game.
Because PLEX is turned into Aurum this idea will push PLEX prices up a lot by players converting PLEX for these skill packets. Players who play by PLEX now will find they can no longer afford them - resulting in less players logged in and flying ships.
Often when an older games PCU starts to drop it can have a runaway snowball effect. Given PCU numbers for EvE are well below where it used to be, I worry it can't afford to keep dropping players and still provide regular content updates - especially now there are some other products in the space mmo genre competing for players attention.
This whole thing makes you question what the point of the CSM is too when so many of them are against it, but CCP still seem to want to push this idea through regardless. If you really don't want to listen to the people the playerbase voted to speak for them, then why have the CSM at all. |
Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 06:09:11 -
[1384] - Quote
I make this plea for sanity from CCP in my unequivocal re-iteration that I vote NO, NEVER, CASE AND DESIST...
I am an individual with unique real life aviation and MMO gaming experiences that holds a life time COMPED FREE OF CHARGE ACCOUNT to certain online MMO games because of the graphics and game play design work I did for them...
and yet I choose to pay CCP real money in the form of monthly subscriptions when I have the option to pick up other MMO's free of charge and play them forever without it costing me one red cent...
and I do this simply because I believe EVE offers something unique that is unfathomable to those other game developers to even consider implementing because they could never pull it off...
That EVE gave gravitas and weight to the quantity known as time and long term planning through its skill training mechanic and its diverse sandbox game play...
Do you (CCP) understand you have competition that can undercut your asking price for entertainment by up to 100%?
Do you (CCP) understand that the skill que system and its time investment mechanic is all that sets EVE apart from every other MMO in that it can not be cheated and time in EVE if missed or misused can not be replaced on a single character?
Players can buy someone else's toon or train a million alts but on the toon a player made that they hold dearest as their creation they can never cheat time on it. This simple twist on MMO implementation makes EVE the most realistic game ever made and it is the only reason why hundreds of thousands of people put up with bad game play decisions you (CCP) keep making...
because they are invested totally by the time it took to create their characters...
What is more important for you (CCP) is that new players like me are hooked on this long term time investment as much as the old players only we are having more fun with our low SP than they are with their High SP because every new skill is a new treat and a new adventure or a new ship and the ride has just begun...
and now you (CCP) propose to cheat time to increase profit because those hundred thousand players new and old that will walk through fire to keep their toons training even when they take breaks from the game will be happy to keep paying you when their time investment is nullified into something trivial because you (CCP) say you want to help the new player (ME) even after the new players tell you they do not want this either...
This is what I now know from my time in EVE is called a Cascade Failure in which the leadership of a group loses all touch with its supporting member structure and burns all sacred bridges, crosses all lines in the sand and breaks all promises and the end is swift like any cascading string of domino's that tumble into the vast ether of nothingness from which they came and where time has no meaning.
Listen to your customers on this one...
They are not joking about the long term consequences of even considering an action that removes or nullifies players interest in long term commitments to EVE online. |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2264
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 06:22:24 -
[1385] - Quote
Down with this sort of thing.
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
|
Moneta Curran
Lunar Industries Ltd
304
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 06:26:09 -
[1386] - Quote
I have to add my voice to the chorus of disapproval. Cannibalizing skill-points is a daft idea. Eve should remain a game of meaningful choices where patience is rewarded.
In reference to the character bazaar, you can scrap that too for all I care.
|
Furyvixen Bloodhoof
Fredegar Hohenstaufen Corporation.
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 06:31:17 -
[1387] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Down with this sort of thing.
Can't work out if your for it or against it :)
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1711
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 06:31:23 -
[1388] - Quote
Also I can't believe that somehow CCP Rise had something to do with this idea. This has the stench of a certain CEO... Maybe they where thinking since the CSM was already opposed to the idea they have to present it with a friendly face.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Avanda Redblade
SL33P3R C3LL
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 06:33:52 -
[1389] - Quote
This thread is such a depressing read.
As it stands, a new player can NEVER catch up to someone who happened to start playing earlier. Surely you all see that this is becoming more and more of a problem to new players as time goes by?
I just want to play the game. I can't join a half-decent corp until I have 15 or 25 mil SP or whatever. This suggestion would help to enable me to start PLAYING the game rather than just logging in to check skills every few days. I just want to spend the same money on SP instead of subs and start playing sooner. I have played before and know it is worth waiting for but many will not.
The strength of the opinions of the older players should also be factored down by the diminishing returns mentioned in the blog. The mentality of these old gits is to keep their "rightful" place in society and do whatever they can to prevent any new characters becoming as famous as the old empire builders or legendary FCs.
I am in favour of this proposal to remove the most rusty nail of all from Eve's coffin-to-be.
|
Red Deck
The Tebo Corp
73
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 06:36:09 -
[1390] - Quote
Dont' do this. Please. PLEASE!
It's a truly horrible idea. |
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Daimus Daranius
Viziam Amarr Empire
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 06:37:49 -
[1391] - Quote
EVE has been dying for a while now (some would say it has been dying since 2003, although personally I wouldn't go that far), so steps needed to be taken to bring people (back) to EVE. Changes from this devblog will bring more profit to CCP so I can only conclude that they were necessarry to save EVE.
For a while, players have been posting ideas and suggestions on forums on the matter of keeping EVE alive and in well shape. Some of those ideas were good, some others were not, but literally every one of them has been met with instant rejection by bittervets. Well, they can suck it up now! Also, can I have their stuff?
I therefore conclude that EVE has a new fundamental rule (some might even call it Rule #1):
Every good idea suggested by players with good intentions that was rejected by conservative playerbase will turn into a much worse version of itself when devs propose something similar.
Think about that next time you turn your back away to a decent idea, EVE community.
Amarr Victor!
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3006
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 06:42:59 -
[1392] - Quote
Avanda Redblade wrote:This thread is such a depressing read.
As it stands, a new player can NEVER catch up to someone who happened to start playing earlier. Surely you all see that this is becoming more and more of a problem to new players as time goes by?
I just want to play the game. I can't join a half-decent corp until I have 15 or 25 mil SP or whatever. This suggestion would help to enable me to start PLAYING the game rather than just logging in to check skills every few days. I just want to spend the same money on SP instead of subs and start playing sooner. I have played before and know it is worth waiting for but many will not.
The strength of the opinions of the older players should also be factored down by the diminishing returns mentioned in the blog. The mentality of these old gits is to keep their "rightful" place in society and do whatever they can to prevent any new characters becoming as famous as the old empire builders or legendary FCs.
I am in favour of this proposal to remove the most rusty nail of all from Eve's coffin-to-be.
I played from day one of my Eve career and had a great time doing so.
Make the most of the skill points you have whilst learning about the game.
Hell, I mined in an Iteron 3 - about an hour to fill it, if I remember correctly, and spent a lot of time chatting to older players in local who were unfailingly helpful.
- I want 25m skill point today, - will soon become I want to fly a Titan from day one.
This is probably the worse idea CCP have ever come up with...
This is not a signature.
|
Memphis Baas
706
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 06:45:46 -
[1393] - Quote
The skill packs will be at maximum demand, regardless of the supply. Look at how many high-SP characters you have in the database (the supply) vs. how many new characters you have (the demand). Market trading forces will drive the price up and negate any diminishing returns you may implement to try to limit this to newbies; it just won't be affordable for newbies at all.
The idea of SP transfer is cool; I like it a lot. Just that SP are so desirable as a commodity that you won't have any control over its trading price point.
So, if you intend this to be a replacement for character bazaar trading (where 1bn ISK is the smallest denomination coin), then it's fine. Rich character sellers and buyers can use this instead of the Bazaar.
However, if you intend this to be "gifts for newbies" and a way to attract new players and entice them to stay, then I would recommend a mentoring system (similar to the buddy system), where the newbie gets the SP and the donor gets desirable non-ISK perks (extra attribute re-specs, for example, or dual-character-training for a period of time). Rather than packs, maybe a long term slow trickle mentoring "relationship", either 1:1 or entire_corp->recruit, to also promote joining a player corp (entire corp can donate SP to you, you lucky newbie you).
Yes, this can be abused by someone activating 12 accounts to "mentor" speed-train 1 character, so you'll have to limit how many mentors there can be. In any case, details for you to figure out. The TLDR is, if you want it for newbies, you have to have an SP transfer mechanism that doesn't involve trading or ISK. And, you can have both (character bazaar replacement via trading for ISK, and newbie mentoring system). |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 06:52:54 -
[1394] - Quote
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:Nearly every single person against this change seems to be totally ignoring the fact I can already just keep making money and trading up to better skilled characters via the character bazaar as long as I don't mind not choosing my name.
What is the big deal here apart from that it's just making something that used to be possible but only really known to old players more visible to new players?
Personally I think they should get rid of the bazaar and permaban anyone selling their account, but they think that legitimising sales is a better way to handle it as you'll never stop it. If that sounds familiar it's because it's the same argument for legalising drugs.
So if you're able to already trade in IRL cash and buy a titan pilot tomorrow, what difference does this system make?
Nearly every single person supporting this change seems to be totally ignoring the fact that the game fundamentals are being changed for something with at least to say shady vision, plenty of possible side effects and almost no benefit for new players. This is dangerous road to head to.
With a potential to seriously harm player base. And that is what is a big deal.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Rizz Razz
Bored Bureaucrats Ltd.
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 06:54:36 -
[1395] - Quote
Please don-¦t do that, CCP ! You destroy my game with this ! |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 06:55:14 -
[1396] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:This gives new players an actual reason, an actual object to strive for to further their progression.
They can subscribe, then go farm isk for the purpose of using it to buy skill points to level their characters faster.
Instead of subscribe and wait for a year, they can subscribe and play a ****-ton of EvE being out in the game actively playing, using their activity to acquire an actual benefit. Using the actual desirable reward of leveling their character as incentive to want to spend more time actively pursuing it.
Sure, just as it's possible to purchase a subscription with dollars, it's also possible to purchase a subscription with isk. This adds another benefit to the new player, something he wants.
No it does not. They will have to spend isk (which they dont have as they are new, so cash) to get in the game. How many people are going to do so. Your subscription is 15 bucks per month, but you should invest 50-100 bucks to get better start. If you think that is going to get people attracted or keep them in the game, you are wrong.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Furyvixen Bloodhoof
Fredegar Hohenstaufen Corporation.
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 06:55:45 -
[1397] - Quote
Instead of the skill melting with diminishing returns.
Why not just do like a certain competitors service that allows a boost to a certain level for a fixed price.
So say for 50 notes you can boost the character to 7.5million sp's (random number) with restrictions to skills it can be applied to. (No insta cap ship training etc.....)for cash...not Plex or aur.
And it's a one off only.
It works in other games ,
This approach opens up to the new player as well ...the op suggestion only works if you have isk or a character to take skills from... Something the new player won't have.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26431
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 06:58:41 -
[1398] - Quote
I'll just copy-paste what I've written elsewhere:
darth cookie wrote: The clever part is that no new SP is created. It's only transferred. Plus there is SP lost in the process. So the glut of useless SP on very old characters can be sold to newer characters (with more favorable exchange rates for lower SP characters) while actually sinking SP out of the game. Sure, it's going to be gamed by old players making alts, but it does present the opportunity for new players to get the exact character that's "theirs" and to speed past some of the early but necessary training hurdles (fitting skills I'm looking at you) if they want.
The more I think about it, the more I like it.
I like it less and less the more I think about it. At first it seems fairly clever, but the whole GÇ£unallocatedGÇ¥ SP is where it falls apart. It ends up being that most awful of designs: a means to bypass game mechanics using cash.
The idealistic case is neat GÇö old players using their largely pointless training time to give skills to the needy GÇö but it's not actually skills and it's not the needy who benefit. Rather, it is a way for me to train at double speed at an irrelevant cost, since I'm getting SP out of the deal rather than fixed skills.
Unless they remove the SP part of the idea, and instead let people trade actual skills, this is essentially the SP buying people have been asking for for ages. The fact that it happens at a loss or with diminishing returns doesn't change this GÇö it just increases the cost: I have to use two training queues rather than one to feed my main with SP, big whoop. :nallears:
They're trying to balance their mechanics bypass on cost. That means it is inherently imbalanced. It also needs to be a skill trade, not an SP transfer, and good luck creating diminishing returns on that in any sensible way.
Glory of Arioch wrote: have fun having it reduced to 110% training speed when you get an interesting amount of sp then :v:
But that's just it: there is no such limitation GÇö only an increased cost.
Basically, there are two core issues I see with the idea as presented:
1. There is no upper limit other than running out of skills. You can go back for more as much and as often as you like since we're talking about raw SP rather than skills. While the cost increases as you get more of them, there's nothing that keeps you from buying these packets over and over again and just keep piling up SP. This also has the side-effect that the market for these packets will be heavily skewed and will most likely cater to the whales rather than the little guyGǪ as always. There's only one good, and it will be pulled along in one direction with very little differentiation of supplies and demands (pluralGǪ I'll get to that). There's supposed to be a limit to this in that the market will only supply so much, but that's not actually true becauseGǪ
2. You can trade with yourself. With the bazaar, there was no point or need to trade with yourself. You bought a character because you needed its abilities, but if you already had that character, you obviously had no need to buy it GÇö you already had it. With the proposed setup, this is no longer true. The SP you create on your alt can be as useful on your main, perhaps even more so, and are completely unbound GÇö there are no prerequisites or limitations to what you can transfer, only a diminishing return, i.e. a higher cost, which isn't particularly relevant for a high-end character. This instantly bypasses and negates every single limitation or attempt at balance the market portion is supposed to provide. If you're willing to pay for those additional queues to just sit and produce SP, demand becomes almost irrelevant as a factor.
Sure there's still the actual training speed of the alts to contend with, and in practice, there will be an upper limit to how much people are willing to spend, but you still arrive at a situation where you can pay cash to double your training speed.
Problem #1 could conceivably be solved by making a trade of skills rather than SP GÇö hence why I put supply and demand in plural. If you're in the market for a Caldari Frigate IGÇôV package, then that's a completely different market than if you're looking for a Caldari Titan IGÇôV package. It also means that you get some diminishing return-like effect in that, you might already have that skill to IV and you still have to buy the full IGÇôV package, so you only get ~80% of what you're paying for.
It also means that all these different demands can evolve independently; they can mean something and actually reflect what people want at different levels, rather than have everyone compete for the same pile of free-floating SP (and have some bypass it altogether). JDC V is a fairly specialised skill that still has a huge market, so its price will go up. Titan V will not be in high demand, but rare, so its price will go up too. Meanwhile, although everyone needs it, CPU Management V is common as hell and will catch a suitably low price. To some extent, this also addresses problem #2 GÇö getting an alt to the point where they can give your main Titan V, or even just JDC V, means you have a highly capable alt, so trading with yourself becomes much more cumbersome and a lot less desirable in general.
Even so, self-trading is where this really differs from the character bazaar, and that's probably where the biggest potential for absolute disaster comes inGǪ and of course, the problem with trading skills rather than SP is the way the EVE market works. It would either have to be done though the contract system (urgh) or require a completely new market, bespoke for this one purpose.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
28
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 06:59:06 -
[1399] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:NerdusMaximus wrote:This is a terrible idea.
It's cheap and nasty monetization. It reeks of some third-rate, bargain bin, Korean MMO pay2win scheme. No amount of crying "b-but the character bazaar!" is gonna change the fact that this is quite deliberately geared towards new players, exploiting their frustration with the learning curve for money.
New players want to sit in new ships the same way a kid wants to eat candy for his dinner. Ultimately, he will just be left feeling hungry. Don't be a bad parent CCP. The ironic thing here is that the skill packets those new players would buy are not for sale via real money or aur. If you actually want SP, the place you go is the market to exchange isk. And best of all, this provides yet another incentive corps can offer to new players.
Yes and since new players are full of isk they will totally not need to spend cash for plexes...
And it is great incentive for corps to offer to new players. I mean there are so many corps who accept new players and focus on helping them. I am sure Eve uni would be able to fund this. Oh wait.
I like how this is going, we have like 3 main posters who are supporting this blindly repeating rubish, without even being able to read and comprehend posts which covered all the subjects they are actually trying to use as pro option. Pitty they are ignorant to read or comprehend them :/
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
28
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:02:54 -
[1400] - Quote
NerdusMaximus wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:The ironic thing here is that the skill packets those new players would buy are not for sale via real money or aur. If you actually want SP, the place you go is the market to exchange isk. And best of all, this provides yet another incentive corps can offer to new players.
Oh please, don't be so naive. New players will be a massive well of demand for the Packets, in order for older players to fill the demand they will have to buy the Extractors via Aurum. It's a very roundabout way of doing it, but ultimately it comes down to CCP exploiting that initial demand for their own profit. It's not a demand they should be fulfilling, because of course every new player wants the shiny ships, the best skills. Every new player in every game wants the best, most powerful stuff. You don't actually give it to them. Goodness me. That's not to say they shouldn't be trimming the fat in regards to boring (but often necessary) skills that have little interesting gameplay pay offs. There's so many long trains that have little at the end to show for it. Why aren't CCP focusing on making the skill progression more rewarding? Instead they are lining their pockets with the boredom of waiting, like every freemium iPhone game you ever heard of.
No.
Why? Because new players will not want to invest money in a game they are not even sure they want to play. And they cannot invest Isk as they are new, they dont have much of it, right? They would surely want to get the SP cheaply, but that is never going to happen.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1597
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:04:02 -
[1401] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Also I can't believe that somehow CCP Rise had something to do with this idea. This has the stench of a certain CEO... Maybe they where thinking since the CSM was already opposed to the idea they have to present it with a friendly face.
Said CEO is too good for us blebs, he doesn't talk to us. He makes other people talk to us and even if he writes a letter to us it's not actually made by him. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
28
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:06:29 -
[1402] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:The logic behind people saying they're going to quit is mind-boggling.
Ugggghhhh MORE people to compete with, no thanks.
Why are you playing an MMO when the prospect of more competition, more interaction leads you to want to pack up and go home?
cuz ur bad and the only chance you ever stood was thanks to your "i got here first" advantage.
The ignorance of presented facts as well. This will not help new players.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
473
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:06:50 -
[1403] - Quote
Transferring several million ( unlimited ) SP via the Bazaar is 2 PLEX; you want people to pay AUR in 500k ( max ) increments, for the convenience of keeping their name and character, and all the other reasons mentioned in the Dev Blog?
That's really my main issue. A lot of people care about their character and for :reasons: won't touch the Bazaar ( if they even know about it ) GÇô so I hope the AUR costs for the extractors are priced sensible to level the playing field ( and avoid Greed Is Good Gäó flashbacks ). People should feel good about using a new feature, not "Man, I have to pay the equivalent of 20 PLEX to get Skill Packs, if I could live with a ****** name I'd only pay 2".
There also shouldn't be a 1:1 SP trade, even below 5M SP, to avoid vets creating perfect < 5M SP alts, at no SP cost.
I see no reason for having 4 ratios really; once you go above ~50M+ SP, we are talking fully fledged mains, not new players getting a fast track to feel useful in a field or two. So to keep it simple, maybe just have 2: < ~50M 90% SP is retained, and > ~50M SP something like 30%.
And, since you're keeping Extractor costs sensible, we can have 500K, 1M, 5M and 10M Extrators at different AUR prices, with a discount or premium for the higher ones, to actually keep the Packs and Extractors interesting on the market, and not just a single .01 ISK item. |
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:11:21 -
[1404] - Quote
Pistonbroke wrote:Skinzee wrote:Pistonbroke wrote:This is a terrible idea.
Newer players who want to get ahead in the game can use the character bazaar to get a toon. Evidence of it changing hands is in the forums for all to see, so the disingenuous claptrap about bad rep does not hold water.
Losing the ability to gauge from the age of a character his potential skills will ruin various balances within the game, and will be very horrible for pirates, solo pvpers etc
Have you heard of "street sleepers"? these are super tuned cars which look to all intents and purposes like the standard vehicle that granny uses to run down to the supermarket to buy milk and cat-food. underneath however, they are turbocharged nutters. That's what you are proposing to create.
This is clearly a cash cow, and whilst we don't mind ccp having cash cows to milk, please bear in mind that we are already in the shed every month with our udders out.
Here is my alternative suggestion.
Have your SP reallocators, by all means, but make them only work for the toon the SPs are extracted from. Give them a delay (24 hrs?) so that you cant fly into the station a maxxed out BS pilot, and undock as a maxxed out carrier pilot 2 mins later. I'd happily take a 5-1 loss in the exchange rate to get rid of some of the more ******** things I've changed and to gain a small boost on some skills I would still like to gain.
Permit changes of this nature by all means, but don't create the ability for the already super rich and Highly skilled pilots to rattle up to 500m SPs within a month of the change. Likewise don't create the game breaking situation where a two month old character can be able to fly every sup-cap in the game to maximum proficiency, just because he has RL isk to burn, and wants to create a "street sleeper".
If this goes ahead, I for one will finally say enough already, and bid farewell to eve, and hello to one of the other games which are rapidly making steps ahead, such as Elite Dangerous, or Star Citizen. I'll wish you luck, and I won't look back. Basically, your arguement is purely based on PvP... So what your saying is that you wont PvP with someone unless they are MUCH younger than you because you know you 'out skillpoint them'? Coward... SKillpoints doesnt mean everything... I could beat you 1 on 1 in PvP with this character with 2m SP just because I have a counter fit.. or I out manually pilot you.. or I BLOB you... If your going to leave because I get to fly a shiny ship in a month when it took you 3 months... Go then.. clearly you misunderstand, Let me spell it out to you. - A six week old player might choose not to engage a 10 year old player, for obvious reasons. This change creates the situation where the money rich player can create a toon with the skills of a 10 year old player, that looks like a 2 month old player. So my argument is entirely the converse to your assumption. And when it comes to calling people coward.... who's the one in the NPC corp?
Why would I need to look at someones DOB to assume I can beat them? Its a simple case of ship vs ship, pilot vs pilot... As I said... I could destroy you in PvP just because im a better pilot... not because I have more skillpoints... Obviously, If your sitting in a legion and im in a Omen.. Im not going to engage you am I?
and im a coward because im in a NPC corp? maybe I like mission running in my punisher in a corp of 100's online that actually chat. Rather than a corp of 4 and in an active war? Yeah... Good comeback |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
29
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:13:00 -
[1405] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Akako Higanjima wrote:Which, I suppose, is why we're all here commenting. I'd say most people here are commenting just because they're scared some newbies Important Internets Spaceship Number will get closer to the veterans Important Internets Spaceship Number without the appropriate paying of dues and kissing of rings. Estevan Andrard wrote:That is reason enough to consider that skill and progression is being driven to the death row. We can only hope.
This is utter bs. They will not get closer since majority of them cannot afford it. Therefore it does not help new players, only experienced, rich players might have some benefits in paying to fix their past mistakes and slightly easier creation of perfect alts.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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TSaQ
Fundamental
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:13:35 -
[1406] - Quote
The wrong way started with the need for speed and will end with Skill Trading.
After 10 years of playing EVE, i am finally disgusted.
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Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
33
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Posted - 2015.10.16 07:15:11 -
[1407] - Quote
wow I had no idea CCP had these things going on until I just read about it just now...
New CEO...
Big move to London...
Big shiny new servers...
Why do I envision an internal memo saying...
Quote:The beatings will continue until moral and player base numbers improves.
If the goose laying the golden eggs must be killed to pay for my New IBM's so be it!
-New CEO
so a friendly face delivers this topic and disguises it and the fact that all the CSM's said hell no because the New CEO demands more money to pay for his expensive move and his new IBM's and his shiny salary?
Cascading Failure.
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
31
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:17:15 -
[1408] - Quote
Chrome Veinss wrote:Burl en Daire wrote:In a way this seems to take advantage of new players.
These new pilots get into the game for $20 and then see how much things cost so they spend $20 on a PLEX to buy a cool ships only to learn they can't fly it without spending $20 -or whatever the price will be- to add SP to their toon. If they quit CCP has just milked them for some money just to learn they don't like the game, if my friend told me that about EVE I would have never signed up.
CCP needs to be mindful of how the things look to outsiders. Those $60 will still be cheaper than paying a subscription for several months on top of grinding the isk to buy the ships though Ive been playing for almost 3 years and I still cant fly many (most?) ships. I probably wouldnt have started playing if someone had told me i would still be lagging behind 3 years into the game, but I ended up liking it anyway
Maybe, but how many new players will start playing a game where beside 15 bucks a month for subscription you need 50-100 bucks to "start off"? 2-3? :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1715
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:17:24 -
[1409] - Quote
So this is what I will do if this horrible Idea actually makes it to TQ:
I will create x new accounts with the following character slot layout:
1) gank alt 2) gank / infiltration alt 3) SP farm
Since you can now create gank alts within 16min you can start the queue on the SP farm alt right away.
SP farm alt will work like this:
1) buy PLEX from market and add gametime 2) train SP at max efficiency 3) extract and sell the SP 4) => 1)
This will start to simply produce ISK after ~2 months. From this point onwards you will have as many free alts as you want no matter the PLEX price, since the SP you produce by consuming this PLEX will always sell for more than they cost to produce this way.
Welcome to the age of effortless endless free gank alts which will even fill your wallet with the excess money they produce. So no more waiting for 15min after a gank, you just switch to a new alt in your pool or scale your fleet to as much DPS is required for the kill.
I know you could do this with the bazzar in theory, but it involves a lot more effort to actually sell those toons, which makes it impractical.
RIP PLEX prices, sorry
I am starting to like this idea after all.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
31
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:20:03 -
[1410] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:RavenPaine wrote:Will new players with 'pay to win' mechanics actually increase the subscription rates?
How is this pay to win when it can be done all in game with in-game monetary units? Plex and Aurum can be purchased, as usual, does this make it pay-to-win? Does having better skills mean you instantly win a fight? I don't think so, buying a couple of level 5 skills doesn't make you know how to orbit in range properly or manual-keep-at-range. Half of the time any skill-intensive ships are only used in large fleets anyhow. This seems like it would just allow new players to get the right ships to join the vets faster. If you are worried about whether you have rapid firing 4 rather than 5 compared to the guy you are fighting in a 1v1 you are doing 1v1s wrong anyhow, and that's the only place differing skills between two players truly matter. The thing is usually grind to win. As mentioned, if they grind and buy SP packets and use it, at least they can't lose it (can't even be alphapodded anymore). If anything, I hope that the poor constantly clueless new people who fall into every pit the veterans always are so concerned about.... perhaps if they spend their grinding isk on some SP, it'll be better than currently where the only thing to spend on is loseable ships. But I'm sure the so concerned vets are fine with that.... The vast majority of veteran players already have all skills that give a major statistical advantage maxed anyhow, it's not like most players having those maxed would make the game unfair for anyone. The only "winners" would be new players in terms of statistics, and veterans in terms of ISK. New players wouldn't necessarily have to pay real money for anything anyways, they could just make ISK through the ways that exist already.
No, since new players would not be able to afford it without investing significant amounts of cash (significant compared to subscription cost). And I am sure plenty would not be ready for that. So it would only rich vets who can benefit from this. And that is why this idea is fail. It does not benefit the target group.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Synthiosis
Off Peak Incorporated
1
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Posted - 2015.10.16 07:20:23 -
[1411] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Synthiosis wrote:
In conclussion,
Is that when you have a eureka moment when someone clobbers you over the head with a brick ?
What **** wit? |
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:21:38 -
[1412] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:RL MONEY => PLEX => CHARACTER BAZAAR => 100M SP CHARACTER
RL MONEY => AUR => SKILLPOINT BOOST => 100M SP CHARACTER
Difference?
CHARACTERS BIRTH DATE NO BAD CHARACTER HISTORY FOR SKILLPOINT BOOSTED CHARACTER.
Disagree? Why?
Skinzee wrote:I have a question for ALL people that say this is a bad idea...
--- WHAT EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON YOU AS A PILOT IF THIS WOULD ACTUALLY GO LIVE? ---
There is already an option to buy 0-200m SP characters... Character Bazaar - (Thats Pay2Win if you look at it that way)
I've read through most of the post's this morning and still not seen a 'valid' argument against this idea. All I see is people saying "Dont, I will quit, wha wha wha", "Doing this will mean my 10year DOB means nothing wha wha wha"
If your crying this much about the transfer of SP for substantially more RL money than character bazaar, Why have none of you kicked off this much about buying characters with already 100's millions of SP?
ITS EXACTLY THE SAME... - Only difference is what ive stated above... and again, its the PvPer that are crying the most PURELY because of the DOB? Does it really mean that much to you that you cant PvP someone fairly? You only pick on people born after you? Thats kinda like bullying and cowardly if thats the case. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3523
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:22:47 -
[1413] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:This gives new players an actual reason, an actual object to strive for to further their progression.
They can subscribe, then go farm isk for the purpose of using it to buy skill points to level their characters faster.
Instead of subscribe and wait for a year, they can subscribe and play a ****-ton of EvE being out in the game actively playing, using their activity to acquire an actual benefit. Using the actual desirable reward of leveling their character as incentive to want to spend more time actively pursuing it.
Sure, just as it's possible to purchase a subscription with dollars, it's also possible to purchase a subscription with isk. This adds another benefit to the new player, something he wants.
No it does not. They will have to spend isk (which they dont have as they are new, so cash) to get in the game. How many people are going to do so. Your subscription is 15 bucks per month, but you should invest 50-100 bucks to get better start. If you think that is going to get people attracted or keep them in the game, you are wrong.
New players can get ISK via selling PLEX. Another version of "pay to win". A single PLEX can take a new player up to 5 million SP or so and leave them with 300-400 million ISK in their wallet.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Truli Puh
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:24:40 -
[1414] - Quote
hey i want to transfer all my skill points to my BRAVE alt *snaps fingers* hurry up OR ELSE
so bad |
sixteen 64
Perkone Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:28:43 -
[1415] - Quote
EVE is touted as a cold harsh world where everything you do has consequences of some kind or the other and decisions you make matter
The consequence of selling ones SP would be the diminishing returns
As it stands you can buy a character of the bazaar, and the consequence of that is, you don't get to pick your name, possible bad corp history, ex thief, possibility of still having SP in skills you won't use etc etc
But wheres the consequence of buying raw unallocated sp? (other than the cost, but then most hobbies cost money)
It sounds like a horrid idea and borderline cheating \ pay2win, and goes against everything I thought EVE was about. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
31
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:29:06 -
[1416] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:This gives new players an actual reason, an actual object to strive for to further their progression.
They can subscribe, then go farm isk for the purpose of using it to buy skill points to level their characters faster.
Instead of subscribe and wait for a year, they can subscribe and play a ****-ton of EvE being out in the game actively playing, using their activity to acquire an actual benefit. Using the actual desirable reward of leveling their character as incentive to want to spend more time actively pursuing it.
Sure, just as it's possible to purchase a subscription with dollars, it's also possible to purchase a subscription with isk. This adds another benefit to the new player, something he wants.
No it does not. They will have to spend isk (which they dont have as they are new, so cash) to get in the game. How many people are going to do so. Your subscription is 15 bucks per month, but you should invest 50-100 bucks to get better start. If you think that is going to get people attracted or keep them in the game, you are wrong. New players can get ISK via selling PLEX. Another version of "pay to win". A single PLEX can take a new player up to 5 million SP or so and leave them with 300-400 million ISK in their wallet.
Exactly, until the prices go up and that would probably be very fast. But for example let`s even say it stays like that. How many would be interested to spend so much in the game they just started? And after getting those 5 mils and seeing new ship they will want to buy sp again instead of waiting training to finish. How many would do repeat buy of plex for that? ANd with time because of diminishing mechanic it gets even more expensive. Do you think more than those who would give up as they do not want to keep paying extra to get all they want in fast manner? It will not work.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:29:23 -
[1417] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:So this is what I will do if this horrible Idea actually makes it to TQ:
I will create x new accounts with the following character slot layout:
1) gank alt 2) gank / infiltration alt 3) SP farm
Since you can now create gank alts within 16min you can start the queue on the SP farm alt right away.
SP farm alt will work like this:
1) buy PLEX from market and add gametime 2) train SP at max efficiency 3) extract and sell the SP 4) => 1)
This will start to simply produce ISK after ~2 months. From this point onwards you will have as many free alts as you want no matter the PLEX price, since the SP you produce by consuming this PLEX will always sell for more than they cost to produce this way.
Welcome to the age of effortless endless free gank alts which will even fill your wallet with the excess money they produce. So no more waiting for 15min after a gank, you just switch to a new alt in your pool or scale your fleet to as much DPS is required for the kill.
I know you could do this with the bazzar in theory, but it involves a lot more effort to actually sell those toons, which makes it impractical.
RIP PLEX prices, sorry
I am starting to like this idea after all.
Really? Your in Code. and from what ive seen... You all run around in Catalysts killing freighters... How long does it take to actually train for a Catalyst? 2hrs?
and your idea of creating a "SP farmer"... You still have to pay RL cash to transfer the SP... Are you going to spend -ú20 every 500k Skillpoints? that would be around -ú50/month + -ú10 sub fee.... Yeah... Sounds logical doesnt it? -.-
The fact that creating a 'boosted character' would cost a S**T ton of RL money... like, I mean... in the 1000's of -ú to get anywhere near even 150m SP... How many people in the world do you think will actually SPEND -ú1000's on 1 character?
I wouldnt... I wouldnt anywhere near that... I would spend enough to get my character to 10-15m SP so I can fly a few ships decently and have fun... Rather than running around t1 cruiser and t1 guns and t1 drones doing missions just out of boredom! |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
601
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:34:38 -
[1418] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:Skinzee wrote:RL MONEY => PLEX => CHARACTER BAZAAR => 100M SP CHARACTER
RL MONEY => AUR => SKILLPOINT BOOST => 100M SP CHARACTER
Difference?
CHARACTERS BIRTH DATE NO BAD CHARACTER HISTORY FOR SKILLPOINT BOOSTED CHARACTER.
Disagree? Why? Skinzee wrote:I have a question for ALL people that say this is a bad idea...
--- WHAT EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON YOU AS A PILOT IF THIS WOULD ACTUALLY GO LIVE? ---
There is already an option to buy 0-200m SP characters... Character Bazaar - (Thats Pay2Win if you look at it that way)
I've read through most of the post's this morning and still not seen a 'valid' argument against this idea. All I see is people saying "Dont, I will quit, wha wha wha", "Doing this will mean my 10year DOB means nothing wha wha wha" If your crying this much about the transfer of SP for substantially more RL money than character bazaar, Why have none of you kicked off this much about buying characters with already 100's millions of SP? ITS EXACTLY THE SAME... - Only difference is what ive stated above... and again, its the PvPer that are crying the most PURELY because of the DOB? Does it really mean that much to you that you cant PvP someone fairly? You only pick on people born after you? Thats kinda like bullying and cowardly if thats the case.
There is an obviois logic of how things get achieved. And if the only powerfull cobmination which is - left click of your mouse hit "pay" button all the rest is doesn't really matter. |
Zafriel
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:34:59 -
[1419] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Ok to sum it up.
They want to introduce new feature which should help new players.
So when the new player comes he finds out that beside subscription he should spent 5x-10x that money to "get it going". Meaning that since the start he does not get the EVE. Eve is not about speeding things up and having it easy way. When that reality hits them a lot will just quit, since they were not prepared for that.
After that turbo start he realizes the game is quite slow unless he wants to keep spending more and more money to speed it until he gets comfortable with sp. Pity that in the most cases he will not have any idea what he needs/wants. Because that is what you learn while your skills are training. There is no Instant Start Up Course to teach them everything in couple of hours. Then disappointment comes. Guess what, 99% will quit. You will make them spend extra cash and give them false image of the game which will not lead to anything.
So the group this should help the most will actually have the least benefit of it. Ie the whole idea is a giant fail. There are people mentioning alliances who will buy sp to boost news etc. How many alliances accepts new players? How many puts effort in them? Eve Uni cannot fund something like this, other alliances/corps might eventually use it to affect some battle doctrine they are using, but there is low possibility due to high cost as alliances tend to have players with more sp.
There is definitely need to find a way to attract and keep new players, but this is not the proper one.
Meanwhile, some older players will utilize this function to spec new alts. Also some rich old players could try to get on top of total sp list and take off someone who committed himself for years to the game to be where he is. During that plenty of older/vet players will quit, disappointed in CCP. They will not be disappointed because "some newbs are overtaking them in sp". Let`s be realistic, there will be only minor amount of those who will spend a lot of cash to get high sp just for the sake of sp. There might be couple of contenders on top spots, i know some people can afford spending thousands of usd/eur on the game if they find that idea (to be top 1) in sp interesting.
People will be disappointed as they will see CCP making great mistakes. Changing FUNDAMENTALS of the game for something new, something they cannot even assume the result of, without considering side effects and without caring about their customers feelings. Meaning that if they are ready to do it once, they will do it again and people will not commit their time as they cannot know what to expect next in the long run. People will be disappointed as they will lose faith in CCP and company`s vision of the game. No one is going to trust with his money company which is inconsistent and on whom`s ideas and vision they can lean on or see themselves be part of.
So, even though some people have personal interests to be able to fix the mistakes they did (boofkinhoo, cry me a river about wrongly put 2mil sp) or to get an alt easier without being able to look at the whole picture as they can look up only on their own asses, this whole idea will strike whole player base in much worse sense.
And there could be even more side effects like rmt and who knows what else...
I hope I have drawn it nicely for everyone.
Summed up for all those who are not able to see how this develops in the long run. |
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:35:51 -
[1420] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: A single PLEX can take a new player up to 5 million SP or so and leave them with 300-400 million ISK in their wallet.
Please explain where you got this information from? There has not been given a price for the SP transfer and i'm sure as hell its going to cost ALOT more than PLEX to get as the SP is actually created from another player and then sold... not like a PLEX where you can buy it straight from CCP...
AND...
to get from Brand new character to 5million SP.. you would need NINE (9) of them... then higher SP you go, the less SP you actually get from the SP transfer...
I would imagine the SP transfers would cost around the same as x2 PLEX... So to boost a character from 0-5mil SP would be
Wait for it....
18 BILLION ISK... EIGHTEEN BILLION!!.... for 5M SP?... Would you pay that? seriously? Thats Equivalent to around -ú220...
|
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9244
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:38:22 -
[1421] - Quote
Interesting trend I'm seeing here.
The vets are cranking on about how new players will abuse this and newer players gettin' grumpy because the vets will abuse this.
I grew up in politics and it was often said that when both sides think they are being cheated in something, then you are probably doing something right. So, I think it may actually end up that CCP is doing this right since both the new and old players feel they will be screwed over by the other side taking advantage.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1598
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:38:52 -
[1422] - Quote
If you buy a character you buy its history, its SP allocation and name. A new owner simply continues that character's story and journey. You can buy a character but you're not buying character advancement.
With the new system you cannibalise characters and ARE buying character advancement, you're circumventing the normal progression of a character and pay your way forward. JUST like how the ishukone Scorps circumvented the normal game and industry rules within the sandbox, and got shot down in the end (but only after a massive outcry).
There is a MASSIVE difference between the two and if one can't see that then that person is either blind, an idiot or thinks it would benefit him. Short term it might, long term it's yet another step down a path we shouldn't want to go. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3523
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:39:33 -
[1423] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: A single PLEX can take a new player up to 5 million SP or so and leave them with 300-400 million ISK in their wallet. Please explain where you got this information from? There has not been given a price for the SP transfer and i'm sure as hell its going to cost ALOT more than PLEX to get as the SP is actually created from another player and then sold... not like a PLEX where you can buy it straight from CCP... AND... to get from Brand new character to 5million SP.. you would need NINE (9) of them... then higher SP you go, the less SP you actually get from the SP transfer... I would imagine the SP transfers would cost around the same as x2 PLEX... So to boost a character from 0-5mil SP would be Wait for it.... 18 BILLION ISK... EIGHTEEN BILLION!!.... for 5M SP?... Would you pay that? seriously? Thats Equivalent to around -ú220...
A PLEX will sell for about 1.2 billion ISK. How much does a 5 million SP character sell for on the character bazaar?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
164
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:40:16 -
[1424] - Quote
I am still not sure whether I like this or not, but I can see some big problems (probably menntioned here earlier):
1. Hacked and compromised accounts. It is easy to follow the stolen items and isk and the char is also easily tracked. But if then someone gets access to a high SP char he can just turn him into SP-packs and sell it for -10% on the market. By the time the investigation is concluded most of these SP will be inside many other pilots heads.
2. Newbieboosting. For one I think this will not really be an optional thing. Everyone starting the game will feel obliged to buy a few million of SP. Because they want to try out more stuff and T2 is better and easier.
3. The other really big problem I am affraid of is how recruiting new players will become impossible. You will even more than now see the big divide between the rich and the not so. The big and rich groups already have better PR, more help with recruitement and are way more visible. They already take most of the new players while smaller groups are left in the dust. After these changes the rich groups will for sure give out SP-packs for new members. Probably not from the start but after a few months of being with them. And how can anyone tell a newbie in good conscience to pass on something like that because your small group needs more members. When the rich groups can advertise with "stay 3 months and get your char C5 escalationready or in a rattingcarrier."
4. The charakterbazaar is hard work. You have to spend hours on ther searching and updating to get something you like for a reasonable price. And it can take weeks. This heavily affects how many people use it. If I can get unlocated SP in jita everyone and their mothers will do it. Also you are no longer stuck with ****** names. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3523
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:40:23 -
[1425] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Interesting trend I'm seeing here. The vets are cranking on about how new players will abuse this and newer players gettin' grumpy because the vets will abuse this. I grew up in politics and it was often said that when both sides think they are being cheated in something, then you are probably doing something right. So, I think it may actually end up that CCP is doing this right since both the new and old players feel they will be screwed over by the other side taking advantage. Mr Epeen
Yep. Pretty much as simple as this.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
601
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:40:59 -
[1426] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Skinzee wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: A single PLEX can take a new player up to 5 million SP or so and leave them with 300-400 million ISK in their wallet. Please explain where you got this information from? There has not been given a price for the SP transfer and i'm sure as hell its going to cost ALOT more than PLEX to get as the SP is actually created from another player and then sold... not like a PLEX where you can buy it straight from CCP... AND... to get from Brand new character to 5million SP.. you would need NINE (9) of them... then higher SP you go, the less SP you actually get from the SP transfer... I would imagine the SP transfers would cost around the same as x2 PLEX... So to boost a character from 0-5mil SP would be Wait for it.... 18 BILLION ISK... EIGHTEEN BILLION!!.... for 5M SP?... Would you pay that? seriously? Thats Equivalent to around -ú220... A PLEX will sell for about 1.2 billion ISK. How much does a 5 million SP character sell for on the character bazaar?
About 2.5-3.0bb just to cover trasnfer fee + small interest |
Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1298
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:44:08 -
[1427] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: A single PLEX can take a new player up to 5 million SP or so and leave them with 300-400 million ISK in their wallet. Please explain where you got this information from? There has not been given a price for the SP transfer and i'm sure as hell its going to cost ALOT more than PLEX to get as the SP is actually created from another player and then sold... not like a PLEX where you can buy it straight from CCP... AND... to get from Brand new character to 5million SP.. you would need NINE (9) of them... then higher SP you go, the less SP you actually get from the SP transfer... I would imagine the SP transfers would cost around the same as x2 PLEX... So to boost a character from 0-5mil SP would be Wait for it.... 18 BILLION ISK... EIGHTEEN BILLION!!.... for 5M SP?... Would you pay that? seriously? Thats Equivalent to around -ú220...
Yeah, I think the numbers being bandied around are hilariously optimistic. As you say, I can't imagine the sp-creation-widget being less than half a PLEX to a PLEX in real money, and naturally, yet again, a new use for PLEX/Aurum will again spike the price of PLEX on the market, so the current price is going to be a distant memory. Oh, and you need one for every half million sp. Plus, multi-Trillionaires will be buying the packets off the market like they are going out of fashion, both because they can afford to eat the diminished returns, and because this will immediately be the new speculators wet dream.
Anyone who thinks a newbie is going to be able to get a sniff of one of these packets is floating in their own unicorn-and-rainbows dreamworld. Still "Skill packets are too expensive" will make a change from "PLEX are too expensive" posts
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
31
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:44:48 -
[1428] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Interesting trend I'm seeing here. The vets are cranking on about how new players will abuse this and newer players gettin' grumpy because the vets will abuse this. I grew up in politics and it was often said that when both sides think they are being cheated in something, then you are probably doing something right. So, I think it may actually end up that CCP is doing this right since both the new and old players feel they will be screwed over by the other side taking advantage. Mr Epeen
No. Plenty of people have put some arguments and backed them up with expectations/visions based on previous experiences. That is way different from crying. Though i doubt someone involved in politics would understand that ;)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Carneval
Bohemian Veterans DARKNESS.
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:46:02 -
[1429] - Quote
Little bit of "darkorbit" thingie? This system can be abused in very much serious ways.. And change complete whole mechanics you guys were developing many years. SP is very sensitive topic for us, you know that.. Please upgrade the char bazaar instead. I understand you lack new players, but changing your whole philosophy of your unique child that makes... EVE Online that makes EVE Online? As a programmer, it would be as changing Java for Oracle.. Different game. Keep us, your community rather than losing 1/2 of us.. Yes you will maybe gain twice as us, but for what cost? I would rather sent you chilli pizza to think fuking off new greater ideas ;) this one is bad for sure |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4115
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:48:54 -
[1430] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:I don't like this. Could be worse, but I don't like it.
A lowish hard cap would make it not as bad. But it still leads to "I just subscribed, but unless I spend more real money, I'll always be behind" ^^this right here is one of the main reason this idea is idiotic.
If you think you're 'doing it for the new players', think again. You'll just **** off 99% of the potential new players, leaving you with the 1% that are happy to throw hundreds of $ at a game - a subscription game, ffs! - that they just started to play.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:48:57 -
[1431] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Interesting trend I'm seeing here. The vets are cranking on about how new players will abuse this and newer players gettin' grumpy because the vets will abuse this. I grew up in politics and it was often said that when both sides think they are being cheated in something, then you are probably doing something right. So, I think it may actually end up that CCP is doing this right since both the new and old players feel they will be screwed over by the other side taking advantage. Mr Epeen Yep. Pretty much as simple as this.
Not simple at all, as people supporting this for the sake of new players do not realize that it will not help them. While the potential side effects are too big.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7546
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:49:53 -
[1432] - Quote
for some one with 80m SP who wants to buy SP at the same rate you earn it, let me tell you how much that'll cost you;
500,000 SP is required for the extraction. this takes ~7.7 days with +5s and a perfect remap. at current plex prices, 7.7 days of subscription time is ~400m isk. that SP packet will give you 80,000 sp. that means you need 6.25 packets every 7.7 days. so, that's 2.5bn isk every 7.7 days. (based on plex @1.2bn each) with roughly four 7.7 day periods in a 30 day period (the duration of 1 plex) that's 10bn isk.
tl;dr for an 80m sp player to buy 30 days (1 plex) worth of SP, it's going to cost 10bn isk.
this is WITHOUT the cost of the extractor. |
Chief Powatan
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:49:58 -
[1433] - Quote
CCP, you've fueled a Jita riot against skill trading.
http://postimg.org/image/gwcqfk325/
Do you really want to do this?
Nine protesters and rising. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1718
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:51:33 -
[1434] - Quote
Skinzee wrote: Really? Your in Code. and from what ive seen... You all run around in Catalysts killing freighters... How long does it take to actually train for a Catalyst? 2hrs?
and your idea of creating a "SP farmer"... You still have to pay RL cash to transfer the SP... Are you going to spend -ú20 every 500k Skillpoints? that would be around -ú50/month + -ú10 sub fee.... Yeah... Sounds logical doesnt it? -.-
The fact that creating a 'boosted character' would cost a S**T ton of RL money... like, I mean... in the 1000's of -ú to get anywhere near even 150m SP... How many people in the world do you think will actually SPEND -ú1000's on 1 character?
I wouldnt... I wouldnt anywhere near that... I would spend enough to get my character to 10-15m SP so I can fly a few ships decently and have fun... Rather than running around t1 cruiser and t1 guns and t1 drones doing missions just out of boredom!
Did you even read my post? The creation of a gank alt takes 16min without additional SP. So I can use the whole SP produced with the PLEX which allows me to play with that account and turn them into packs which I can sell on the market.
All the required things will come from the market (PLEX for SP and the item to create packs from the SP). The ISK price for the SP packs will always be above the ISK costs for producing them with PLEX/AUR which means you will get a free alt.
If you still don't get it: I don't need the SP on the gank alts, so I can sell them for gametime + additional ISK.
And I get more additional ISK the more accounts I will use this way.
Not really difficult to understand..
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9244
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:51:40 -
[1435] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Interesting trend I'm seeing here. The vets are cranking on about how new players will abuse this and newer players gettin' grumpy because the vets will abuse this. I grew up in politics and it was often said that when both sides think they are being cheated in something, then you are probably doing something right. So, I think it may actually end up that CCP is doing this right since both the new and old players feel they will be screwed over by the other side taking advantage. Mr Epeen No. Plenty of people have put some arguments and backed them up with expectations/visions based on previous experiences. That is way different from crying. Though i doubt someone involved in politics would understand that ;) Dude, there's so much knee jerking in this thread you could have a line dance competition.
Note to self: Organize a line dance competition for next fanfest.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Georgiy Giggle
REFORD Division REFORD
129
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:52:14 -
[1436] - Quote
Sorry, but it's a bullsh*t.
Why are you trying to please new players? Why aren't you trying to keep veterans? Are you wanna be a WORLD OF WARCRAFT, where new players coming every day and when old players living after 3 months, after reaching a maximum of possible?
Remove shi*y aurum out of game!!!
Remove all donate and other crap that ppl do not need (but yes, you, CCP need it because of money).
If you want extra profit - as somebody mentioned - add ability to change nickname and/or gender for a PLEX price.
It's not my fault that I'm smarter than 10 years old guy only because my parent decided to 'make' me 20 years ago!
Skillpoint is priceless. Same as time!!!
And what a point for me to extract my skills point from something useless (actually nothing is useless among a skills) to get 10 times less but more useful? Me, as a pilot with skillpoints more than 80m, can deduct 500 000 sp to convert it into 50 000. So as a result that means: I had 80m but now I'll have 79.55m!!! (in case If i decide to change something 'useless' for something 'useful')
Is it a program of becoming ********? OMG... IDEOCARY is coming.
Stop doing sh*t, you have a lot work to do: FULL INCARNA VALKYRIE DUST 514 FOR PC CITADELS NORMAL SHIP-SKIN PROGRAM (as you presented during fanfest)
Not mastering proprieties, won't become firmly established.
- Confucius
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:54:44 -
[1437] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Interesting trend I'm seeing here. The vets are cranking on about how new players will abuse this and newer players gettin' grumpy because the vets will abuse this. I grew up in politics and it was often said that when both sides think they are being cheated in something, then you are probably doing something right. So, I think it may actually end up that CCP is doing this right since both the new and old players feel they will be screwed over by the other side taking advantage. Mr Epeen No. Plenty of people have put some arguments and backed them up with expectations/visions based on previous experiences. That is way different from crying. Though i doubt someone involved in politics would understand that ;) Dude, there's so much knee jerking in this thread you could have a line dance competition. Note to self: Organize a line dance competition for next fanfest. Mr Epeen
I am not talking about simple yes or no posts. There have been couple of very detailed posts which summed all the possible flaws (even without mine posts). And they pretty much nuked out the supporters arguments. So it should really be a no brainer for CCP. Though since they come up with ideas like this I am worried if they are already on "no brainer" mode and I am afraid of possible consequences to the game...
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4116
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:57:29 -
[1438] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Interesting trend I'm seeing here. The vets are cranking on about how new players will abuse this and newer players gettin' grumpy because the vets will abuse this. I grew up in politics and it was often said that when both sides think they are being cheated in something, then you are probably doing something right. So, I think it may actually end up that CCP is doing this right since both the new and old players feel they will be screwed over by the other side taking advantage. Mr Epeen If this goes live, I hope you're right, Mr. E-wiener.
But I can't help thinking that, if you feel you're being cheated, leaving a game is much easier than moving to another country in RL...
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Carneval
Bohemian Veterans DARKNESS.
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:57:36 -
[1439] - Quote
I know, you know, we know, everyone knows char blackmarket. Nobody cant deny it. Morale is bad about it. But it exist. Its working. I know that, you know that, we know that, everybody knows that. Its community creation. How about to learn from these "pirates" of the space and learn "pvp" what they are using against you? They are fresh ideas, even they are pirate ones. Use those ideas and implement some steucture from them to your benefit. They are community as us. Use ALL your community. Get the ideas. I see its working, Ill think about it, its working, i use it and see... Its life. Get ideas from everywhere. This one is really bad one. |
SwissChris1
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
22
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:58:45 -
[1440] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:for some one with 80m SP who wants to buy SP at the same rate you earn it, let me tell you how much that'll cost you;
500,000 SP is required for the extraction. this takes ~7.7 days with +5s and a perfect remap. at current plex prices, 7.7 days of subscription time is ~400m isk. that SP packet will give you 50,000 sp. that means you need 10 packets every 7.7 days. so, that's 4bn isk every 7.7 days. (based on plex @1.2bn each) with roughly four 7.7 day periods in a 30 day period (the duration of 1 plex) that's 16bn isk.
tl;dr for an 80m sp player to buy 30 days (1 plex) worth of SP, it's going to cost 16bn isk.
this is WITHOUT the cost of the extractor.
If your math is correct than I really have nothing to complain about this change. |
|
Dave Stark
7546
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 07:59:23 -
[1441] - Quote
SwissChris1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:for some one with 80m SP who wants to buy SP at the same rate you earn it, let me tell you how much that'll cost you;
500,000 SP is required for the extraction. this takes ~7.7 days with +5s and a perfect remap. at current plex prices, 7.7 days of subscription time is ~400m isk. that SP packet will give you 50,000 sp. that means you need 10 packets every 7.7 days. so, that's 4bn isk every 7.7 days. (based on plex @1.2bn each) with roughly four 7.7 day periods in a 30 day period (the duration of 1 plex) that's 16bn isk.
tl;dr for an 80m sp player to buy 30 days (1 plex) worth of SP, it's going to cost 16bn isk.
this is WITHOUT the cost of the extractor. If your math is correct than I really have nothing to complain about this change.
it isn't, i just edited it.
you get 50,000 sp, not 80,000 which makes it even more expensive. |
Zenax Cordeaux
Section 8. Gentlemen's.Club
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:06:16 -
[1442] - Quote
One of the most enjoyable weekends I had in Eve was years ago when CCP set Sisi to give all lvl 5 skills to everyone. Then they made all supers available for $100 isk and my whole corp had a blast quite literally ! *yawns, it's interesting how quickly the OMG I'm flying a Titan ! goes away when they are free. I've always thought the skill system sucked because it's not sandbox. Do away with skills altogether and let people do whatever they want whenever they want to > sandbox / freedom Actually give them freedom and see what happens. Anarchy ruled by physics. I predict You will struggle with this yet the newer games coming to challenge don't have this antiquated system at their core and over the next few years it's going to date Eve significantly. Skills were a good way to make people log on and show active player status. Skills achieved their outcome when they were useful though that time has passed. The simple way is so often the best. Wormhole space shows You the way to make things really simple and support the freedom sandbox (is supposed to) represent. Too many supers never show up in a WH because of WH mechanics, not because of skills or isk or the committed efforts a corp could throw down. Really simple sandbox. If You keep adding more ways to make freedom complex and unattainable the only thing I'm going to be looking to trade my character for is a Constellation... |
J Livermore
Flaming Sideburns Social Club
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:06:35 -
[1443] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Interesting trend I'm seeing here. I grew up in politics and it was often said that when both sides think they are being cheated in something, then you are probably doing something right. So, I think it may actually end up that CCP is doing this right since both the new and old players feel they will be screwed over by the other side taking advantage. Mr Epeen
I've heard a similar saying, but it was said by former appeal court judge. It was basically like this: when both parties (in civil case) leave court disappointed, the ruling was probably good one.
It's a nice anecdote, but I fail to see how it applies to a game where you should have fun. |
Dave Stark
7546
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:08:03 -
[1444] - Quote
J Livermore wrote:but I fail to see how it applies to a game where you should have fun.
if some body else having a different number of SP than you impacts your "fun" in eve... you're doing something seriously wrong. |
Anthar Thebess
1345
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:08:35 -
[1445] - Quote
No one buys 5mil sp chars. They are not worth the investment - good chars start around 30mil sp , or around 17mil if this are pure focused projects.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1673
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:10:56 -
[1446] - Quote
doesnt really make much difference to me, if it increases players and they buy sp to be "nullsec relevant" then ill shoot them in the bubble of my cloaky sabre and trololol
Code will probably have some fun with this, millions more easy gank alts just in time for the hyperdunking nerf with tons of fresh new targets who dont have a clue about the game flying around in blingy stuff.
Skills dont really bother me too much anymore, i can fly the ships i like and dont pay any attention to my skill queue anymore
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
601
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:11:19 -
[1447] - Quote
double post |
Dave Stark
7546
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:12:08 -
[1448] - Quote
edited. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
601
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:12:18 -
[1449] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:No one buys 5mil sp chars. They are not worth the investment - good chars start around 30mil sp , or around 17mil if this are pure focused projects.
Wrong |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4118
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:12:38 -
[1450] - Quote
Avanda Redblade wrote:This thread is such a depressing read.
As it stands, a new player can NEVER catch up to someone who happened to start playing earlier. Surely you all see that this is becoming more and more of a problem to new players as time goes by?
I just want to play the game. I can't join a half-decent corp until I have 15 or 25 mil SP or whatever. This suggestion would help to enable me to start PLAYING the game rather than just logging in to check skills every few days. I just want to spend the same money on SP instead of subs and start playing sooner. I have played before and know it is worth waiting for but many will not.
The strength of the opinions of the older players should also be factored down by the diminishing returns mentioned in the blog. The mentality of these old gits is to keep their "rightful" place in society and do whatever they can to prevent any new characters becoming as famous as the old empire builders or legendary FCs.
I am in favour of this proposal to remove the most rusty nail of all from Eve's coffin-to-be.
I never thought that 'catching up' was an issue, even when I started 2 years ago.
But if it's a problem to you, do you really think it's a good idea to be able to 'catch up' only if you pay CCP additional money, on top of your monthly subscription?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
601
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:13:06 -
[1451] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:J Livermore wrote:but I fail to see how it applies to a game where you should have fun. if some body else having a different number of SP than you impacts your "fun" in eve... you're doing something seriously wrong. Wrong then explain it to me, good sir. Was ref to another guy soz |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1673
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:13:12 -
[1452] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:No one buys 5mil sp chars. They are not worth the investment - good chars start around 30mil sp , or around 17mil if this are pure focused projects. Wrong
yes he is, covert cyno chars and trade chars still sell
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9245
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:16:01 -
[1453] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:No one buys 5mil sp chars. They are not worth the investment - good chars start around 30mil sp , or around 17mil if this are pure focused projects. Maybe you should actually click on the character bazaar link and have a little look around. Then you can come back and edit that post to reflect more than your uninformed opinion.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3523
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:21:33 -
[1454] - Quote
Just to try and introduce some facts into this discussion as most people seem to be just knee jerking.
1. Any SP that ends up on the market has to be extracted from an existing character. No SP will be "created out of thin air". To be clear on point 1, for SP to end up on the market a player will have to expend ISK or Aurum to first extract the SP, then to have that SP deposited into an SP packet. No SP will be created by CCP over an above the total number of SP at the time the player decides to "drain" one of his characters.
To give a concrete example, my main (the one I'm posting on), does not have many wasted SP. I have a bit in resource processing and trivial amount of SP here and there from when I first created the character (500 SP in defender missiles?!?!). Totaling it all up I can't even find 500,000 SP I'd like to part with. In other words, of my 123 million SP, none of it will end up on the market at this time.
2. The character bazaar is a "competitor" of this model. That is if I decide I'm going to make a character for sale I'm going to do my best to avoid "wasted SP"--i.e. if it is a PVP character I'm training chances are I'm not going to be training any social skills. However, if were to train a mission runner I might train some social skills.
3. The cost of buying SP will become increasing expensive. To give some numbers to this. To get a 20 million SP character with the current method I'd have to buy 22,750,000 SP to inject. That is, I have to buy 13.75% more SP than I am attempting to end up at. If I want to jump to 50 million SP I have to actually buy 60,250,000 SP or about 21% SP over where I'll end up. One poster blathered on about how there'd be all these characters with 600 million SP. Just to get to 500 million SP one would have to buy 3.495 billion SP. Yes, with a fracking 'B'...billion. So STFU about that ****.
4. Alt SP farms will likely not be a thing, except for people who don't understand basic economics. If I were to start a new account and train a character for 1 month with maxed out attributes I could get about 2.1 million SP. Given the current price of PLEX I'd have to be able to sell this alts SP for 583 ISK/SP just to be able to PLEX the account. And that is ignoring the cost of the extractor and the SP packet items.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:25:52 -
[1455] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Just to try and introduce some facts into this discussion as most people seem to be just knee jerking.
1. Any SP that ends up on the market has to be extracted from an existing character. No SP will be "created out of thin air". To be clear on point 1, for SP to end up on the market a player will have to expend ISK or Aurum to first extract the SP, then to have that SP deposited into an SP packet. No SP will be created by CCP over an above the total number of SP at the time the player decides to "drain" one of his characters.
To give a concrete example, my main (the one I'm posting on), does not have many wasted SP. I have a bit in resource processing and trivial amount of SP here and there from when I first created the character (500 SP in defender missiles?!?!). Totaling it all up I can't even find 500,000 SP I'd like to part with. In other words, of my 123 million SP, none of it will end up on the market at this time.
2. The character bazaar is a "competitor" of this model. That is if I decide I'm going to make a character for sale I'm going to do my best to avoid "wasted SP"--i.e. if it is a PVP character I'm training chances are I'm not going to be training any social skills. However, if were to train a mission runner I might train some social skills.
3. The cost of buying SP will become increasing expensive. To give some numbers to this. To get a 20 million SP character with the current method I'd have to buy 22,750,000 SP to inject. That is, I have to buy 13.75% more SP than I am attempting to end up at. If I want to jump to 50 million SP I have to actually buy 60,250,000 SP or about 21% SP over where I'll end up. One poster blathered on about how there'd be all these characters with 600 million SP. Just to get to 500 million SP one would have to buy 3.495 billion SP. Yes, with a fracking 'B'...billion. So STFU about that ****.
4. Alt SP farms will likely not be a thing, except for people who don't understand basic economics. If I were to start a new account and train a character for 1 month with maxed out attributes I could get about 2.1 million SP. Given the current price of PLEX I'd have to be able to sell this alts SP for 583 ISK/SP just to be able to PLEX the account. And that is ignoring the cost of the extractor and the SP packet items.
All mentioned is correct BUT it does not change the fact that new players will not benefit from it and that the game fundamentals are being changed for something with such low benefit (almost non existent) for 99% of players. Simple as that.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Dave Stark
7546
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:26:36 -
[1456] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:4. Alt SP farms will likely not be a thing, except for people who don't understand basic economics. If I were to start a new account and train a character for 1 month with maxed out attributes I could get about 2.1 million SP. Given the current price of PLEX I'd have to be able to sell this alts SP for 583 ISK/SP just to be able to PLEX the account. And that is ignoring the cost of the extractor and the SP packet items.
To be fair. depending on the price of the extractor one of my accounts may just become an SP farm.
It's an account with 3 PI characters on it. after about 15 days you kinda don't need to train any more SP. this account is a perfect candidate to be an "sp farm" - it already pulls in a good amount of isk with the PI, it'll just be icing on the cake to make isk with unused SP.
admittedly, my situation isn't going to be super common but i doubt it's unique. |
J Livermore
Flaming Sideburns Social Club
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:33:47 -
[1457] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:J Livermore wrote:but I fail to see how it applies to a game where you should have fun. if some body else having a different number of SP than you impacts your "fun" in eve... you're doing something seriously wrong.
I meant more in general than in this particular case. In gaming industry it's probably not a good idea leave your customers feeling disappointed where as on other areas of life it may be right thing to do. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4121
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:37:55 -
[1458] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Just to try and introduce some facts into this discussion as most people seem to be just knee jerking.
1. Any SP that ends up on the market has to be extracted from an existing character. No SP will be "created out of thin air". To be clear on point 1, for SP to end up on the market a player will have to expend ISK or Aurum to first extract the SP, then to have that SP deposited into an SP packet. No SP will be created by CCP over an above the total number of SP at the time the player decides to "drain" one of his characters.
To give a concrete example, my main (the one I'm posting on), does not have many wasted SP. I have a bit in resource processing and trivial amount of SP here and there from when I first created the character (500 SP in defender missiles?!?!). Totaling it all up I can't even find 500,000 SP I'd like to part with. In other words, of my 123 million SP, none of it will end up on the market at this time.
2. The character bazaar is a "competitor" of this model. That is if I decide I'm going to make a character for sale I'm going to do my best to avoid "wasted SP"--i.e. if it is a PVP character I'm training chances are I'm not going to be training any social skills. However, if were to train a mission runner I might train some social skills.
3. The cost of buying SP will become increasing expensive. To give some numbers to this. To get a 20 million SP character with the current method I'd have to buy 22,750,000 SP to inject. That is, I have to buy 13.75% more SP than I am attempting to end up at. If I want to jump to 50 million SP I have to actually buy 60,250,000 SP or about 21% SP over where I'll end up. One poster blathered on about how there'd be all these characters with 600 million SP. Just to get to 500 million SP one would have to buy 3.495 billion SP. Yes, with a fracking 'B'...billion. So STFU about that ****.
4. Alt SP farms will likely not be a thing, except for people who don't understand basic economics. If I were to start a new account and train a character for 1 month with maxed out attributes I could get about 2.1 million SP. Given the current price of PLEX I'd have to be able to sell this alts SP for 583 ISK/SP just to be able to PLEX the account. And that is ignoring the cost of the extractor and the SP packet items. Too lazy to check the math, so I'll take your word on these points.
But in any case, it all boils down to:
1. If farming SP on one side, and injecting SP on the other, is viable/efficient --> bad idea, because p2w: if you have the cash, you can trivialize a fundamental game mechanic
2. If, as you seem to suggest, the proposed system is not so efficient --> bad idea, because you're introducing something fundamentally useless/meaningless but charging cash for it: sounds like a rip off to me
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1720
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:40:21 -
[1459] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: 4. Alt SP farms will likely not be a thing, except for people who don't understand basic economics. If I were to start a new account and train a character for 1 month with maxed out attributes I could get about 2.1 million SP. Given the current price of PLEX I'd have to be able to sell this alts SP for 583 ISK/SP just to be able to PLEX the account. And that is ignoring the cost of the extractor and the SP packet items.
Why would anyone sell the SP at a price below what it costs to produce them? The only people with excess SP to sell will be:
a) vets which have all the SP they need already b) people running SP farms.
So either SP farms are a thing or the only supply will be vets. Vets only seams highly unlikely to me to be enough to saturate the market with SP to an amount that the price falls below what it will take to produce them in a SP farm with PLEX + extractor for free gametime.
Maybe I am wrong and there are a ton of vets who have no idea what to train and just want to lower their sub costs or produce free ISK out of excess SP.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
956
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:40:39 -
[1460] - Quote
I think the sanest thing you could do at this point is delete the dev blog and this thread and pretend it never happened. |
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Dave stark
7546
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:42:07 -
[1461] - Quote
J Livermore wrote:Dave Stark wrote:J Livermore wrote:but I fail to see how it applies to a game where you should have fun. if some body else having a different number of SP than you impacts your "fun" in eve... you're doing something seriously wrong. I meant more in general than in this particular case. In gaming industry it's probably not a good idea leave your customers feeling disappointed where as on other areas of life it may be right thing to do.
I'm largely indifferent to this change - and i think that's a good thing.
let me explain why;
when i feel excited about a change usually it's because there's something i can abuse - that means whatever change we're discussing is generally bad or flawed in some way. when i feel outraged by a change usually it's because it's poorly executed - that means it's generally bad or flawed in some way.
look at the faction warfare changes a while ago - certain people got very excited because they were blowing up freighers of zydrine. look at the fallout from fozziesov recently - certain people got very upset because lets be honest, releasing half a system with no information about the other half was a terrible idea that thankfully CCP have now realised and hopefully won't repeat.
when i feel completely indifferent about an idea it's usually because it's GOOD.
we should also remember - how i feel about an idea in a devblog and how i feel when i'm zipping around in my confessor are two separate things and feelings. |
Big rEy
Navy reiNforcements
74
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:42:44 -
[1462] - Quote
wow, so much crying. p2w you say. Well, let's do a croud funding yo, make one of you crybabyes have the best thing this game can offer and max skills. What will that do to you? NOTHING. You will still get gilled by blob no mather what you are in. I have 150 bil, and 50 mil sp, that does not make me better at solo pvp. I don't even have solo kills, cause i don't go solo, so you can have all the isk, it's for nothing if you don't have the experience. it's not like all of you out there are like guados and predator666. oh wow, we may end up with characters maxed out. WOW, that science and mining and other stuff will be so hard to counter in a 1v1 pvp. Also, what's the deal with the "won't matter the age"? you should rather check his kb to see what's about that char for a smarther intel. Yeah, plex will likely be more expensive for a bit, then should drop out. I have alts that I don't care about due to the fact that my main has all I need for this game. So i would unsubscribe the after i strip the sp. 8 less plex/month.
I Don't always PvP, but when I do...
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Eternal Bob
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:46:42 -
[1463] - Quote
Scott Dracov wrote:I am an individual with unique real life aviation ... experiences
rofl
Why do you keep mentioning this as if it has any relevance at all?
Better listen to this guy, CCP, he can fly a plane IRL. |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
958
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:46:49 -
[1464] - Quote
Big rEy wrote:wow, so much crying. p2w you say. Well, let's do a croud funding yo, make one of you crybabyes have the best thing this game can offer and max skills. What will that do to you? NOTHING. You will still get gilled by blob no mather what you are in. I have 150 bil, and 50 mil sp, that does not make me better at solo pvp. I don't even have solo kills, cause i don't go solo, so you can have all the isk, it's for nothing if you don't have the experience. it's not like all of you out there are like guados and predator666. oh wow, we may end up with characters maxed out. WOW, that science and mining and other stuff will be so hard to counter in a 1v1 pvp. Also, what's the deal with the "won't matter the age"? you should rather check his kb to see what's about that char for a smarther intel. Yeah, plex will likely be more expensive for a bit, then should drop out. I have alts that I don't care about due to the fact that my main has all I need for this game. So i would unsubscribe the after i strip the sp. 8 less plex/month. I guess skills don't matter then, let's just remove them all.
How do you think this is a good argument? |
sytaqe violacea
Circus of midnight
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:47:13 -
[1465] - Quote
I'm a lowsec habitant of running small FWPvP corp for Japanese newbie people.
I know well that CHARACTER LESS THAN 3 MONTHS OLD IS COMPLETELY UNCOMPETETIVE IN LOW-SEC. I have told newbie it again and again that you can be competetive 3 months later, wait and endure. Most of them couldn't wait so long. Under new skill trading system, I will say to newbie "Pay 9,900 yen(=$83) to NEXON and buy 6 PLEXes. Sold them in Jita, buy SP and train core skills and Gallente Frigate V.". It sounds good, but please wait. Oh my buddha, 9,900 yen for just play EVE!? It's not even pay to win. What is worse, no paying for SP but waiting for months will be considered as a sin. No longer old people tolerate newbie flying T1 fitted frigs and painting the killboard red...
At least, this idea is not newbie-friendly. |
Cartridgexxxx
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:49:05 -
[1466] - Quote
the show is over i guess Eve R.I.P |
Ace Aideron
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:50:20 -
[1467] - Quote
I'm in favor of the idea.
First, it's not any more pay-to-play than the character bazaar already is. I can already buy new chars at any level of skill or reputation I want.
SP doesn't actually reflect real skill in the game, anyway. Someone who suddenly has millions of new SP won't be a better player than they will before. In fact, if anything, they're more likely to present juicier targets.
One big benefit to being able to customize SP is that there's a lot of stuff I'd like to be able to do in Eve that I can't, due to not having trained the right skills. The big time delay to get those skills takes fun out of Eve, and drives me out of it. If I sit on the sidelines for 60+ days while I skill-up for something, there's a good chance I will have forgotten all about Eve by the time the training is complete. If I could buy the SP for ISK, it would keep me more engaged. A full year or more to train for some stuff? Horrible!
If someone else has more SP than I do, I couldn't care less. If someone with less SP than me suddenly had more -- good for them! I really only care about my own SP levels, and what they allow me to do.
I can understand that folks who have had to earn their SP the hard way might be unhappy if there's a shortcut. However, Eve has a reputation of being controlled by a small, long-standing clique of high SP players. This could be a great way to throw some disruption into that mix.
If this ends up providing a revenue boost for CCP, that would be awesome, as well. Personally, I want CCP to be financially successful, so that they can continue to provide me with awesome content.
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9246
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:51:24 -
[1468] - Quote
It will always be cheaper to buy a pre-made character. As it stands now, you can buy one for less than it would cost to make it at today's PLEX prices.
What I suspect this will be used for (for most capsuleers) is the occasional top up for people really impatient to get into that new shiny ship that's still a week away from them hopping into it. There will be outliers , of course. The idiots with more money than brains dropping hundreds of dollars in the mistaken belief that SP equals skill.
Like I said in my very first post in this thread. It's really much ado about nothing. It won't be a game changer and it won't be the death of EVE in my opinion. It'll just be another option I'll have to think about when character trading. Now I'll have to factor in the option of breaking them down and selling that way.
But then, I build characters like this. Good name, good looks and hyper focused. That's how you get a premium price at auction time. I'd likely lose money by breaking her down and just selling the SP. But I'll see how it pans out and make my final decision then.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Eternal Bob
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:55:41 -
[1469] - Quote
Kytheria wrote:Soooo what you're saying is that I could break my 150m sp toon down into 3 perfectly focused 50m sp toons for the cost of cash. What then was the entire point of training for this long?
What is preventing you from training perfectly focused toons already? |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:56:10 -
[1470] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:It will always be cheaper to buy a pre-made character. As it stands now, you can buy one for less than it would cost to make it at today's PLEX prices. What I suspect this will be used for (for most capsuleers) is the occasional top up for people really impatient to get into that new shiny ship that's still a week away from them hopping into it. There will be outliers , of course. The idiots with more money than brains dropping hundreds of dollars in the mistaken belief that SP equals skill. Like I said in my very first post in this thread. It's really much ado about nothing. It won't be a game changer and it won't be the death of EVE in my opinion. It'll just be another option I'll have to think about when character trading. Now I'll have to factor in the option of breaking them down and selling that way. But then, I build characters like this. Good name, good looks and hyper focused. That's how you get a premium price at auction time. I'd likely lose money by breaking her down and just selling the SP. But I'll see how it pans out and make my final decision then. Mr Epeen
That is the point. If CCP is ready to change fundamentals of the game so easily, without even any bigger effect and without visible benefits for the player base then what is the next we can expect? That means that we, as customers, cannot lean on CCP as service provider as they have no consistency. As this is not counter strike gungame, it takes a lot of time to spend in game to get somewhere, who will be risking to play long term when they know anything can be changed just like that. That means one more dead MMORPG. And this is the MMORPG i like, I do not want to see it die.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Peter Powers
Terrorists of Dimensions Free 2 Play
256
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:58:05 -
[1471] - Quote
Wribbley wrote:Old players are invariably super rich with nothing much to spend isk on. I doubt any would care about the minimal return on investment. It's still a terribad idea though. I consider myself an old player. I have ~200m isk atm.
3rdPartyEve.net - your catalogue for 3rd party applications
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Theo Sotken
Mother Knows Best Corporation
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:59:56 -
[1472] - Quote
What this boils down to is CCP is selling for cash instant unlimited skill point boosts to players.
I'm already setting up characters to farm skill points not because I think it will make good isk but to increase my income to compensate for the inevitable increase cost to plex accounts. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4121
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:02:21 -
[1473] - Quote
Big rEy wrote:wow, so much crying. p2w you say. Well, let's do a croud funding yo, make one of you crybabyes have the best thing this game can offer and max skills. What will that do to you? NOTHING. You will still get gilled by blob no mather what you are in. I have 150 bil, and 50 mil sp, that does not make me better at solo pvp. I don't even have solo kills, cause i don't go solo, so you can have all the isk, it's for nothing if you don't have the experience. it's not like all of you out there are like guados and predator666. oh wow, we may end up with characters maxed out. WOW, that science and mining and other stuff will be so hard to counter in a 1v1 pvp. Also, what's the deal with the "won't matter the age"? you should rather check his kb to see what's about that char for a smarther intel. Yeah, plex will likely be more expensive for a bit, then should drop out. I have alts that I don't care about due to the fact that my main has all I need for this game. So i would unsubscribe the after i strip the sp. 8 less plex/month. There's 2 ways to look at p2w:
. Personal perspective: 'OMG THIS IS NOT FAIR PEOPLE WITH CASH WILL PWN ME AT PVP' <-- I agree with you 100%, this is bullsh*t
. Gameplay perspective: if you pay CCP more, you can progress faster. Or, even worse, if you don't pay CCP more, you'll progress slower <-- this is pretty much the definition of breaking a game for corporate greed
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26433
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:02:50 -
[1474] - Quote
Ace Aideron wrote:I'm in favor of the idea.
First, it's not any more pay-to-play than the character bazaar already is. Yes it is for one simple reason:
The character bazaar does not let you bypass game mechanics; this idea does. The reason for the difference is because we're talking about raw SP rather than collections of skills and because you can trade with yourself. In combination, these two let you bypass the inherent limitation that exists in how quickly a single character can evolve GÇö something the character bazaar does not let you do.
The whole P2W rhetoric is somewhat silly, because it just devolves into a debate of what constitutes GÇ£winGÇ¥ in the game. However, P2W is a just one case of a general class GÇö paying to skip, ignore, or bypass game-mechanical limitations. The SP trading is a very clear example of this, and as such is an inherently bad idea, because all cases belonging to that general class are inherently bad ideas.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
143
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Posted - 2015.10.16 09:07:26 -
[1475] - Quote
Will these reallocated SP be sold only on the market or can I trade with my alt?
Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why.
Hunter S. Thompson
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Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
695
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:10:57 -
[1476] - Quote
Great idea CCP +1 thanks for opening the game up a bit more to allow more people to enjoy themselves.
Will probably be looked back as one of the greatest changes EvE ever made once all the tin-foil hat doomsday preppers realize this isn't Y2K. |
Dave Stark
7546
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Posted - 2015.10.16 09:12:16 -
[1477] - Quote
Tippia wrote:The character bazaar does not let you bypass game mechanics; this idea does.
no, it doesn't.
those SP still have to be trained by some one. in the same way plex doesn't let you bypass the subscription because some one has to pay for that plex. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4122
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:13:06 -
[1478] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:It will always be cheaper to buy a pre-made character. As it stands now, you can buy one for less than it would cost to make it at today's PLEX prices. What I suspect this will be used for (for most capsuleers) is the occasional top up for people really impatient to get into that new shiny ship that's still a week away from them hopping into it. There will be outliers , of course. The idiots with more money than brains dropping hundreds of dollars in the mistaken belief that SP equals skill. Like I said in my very first post in this thread. It's really much ado about nothing. It won't be a game changer and it won't be the death of EVE in my opinion. It'll just be another option I'll have to think about when character trading. Now I'll have to factor in the option of breaking them down and selling that way. But then, I build characters like this. Good name, good looks and hyper focused. That's how you get a premium price at auction time. I'd likely lose money by breaking her down and just selling the SP. But I'll see how it pans out and make my final decision then. Mr Epeen If the figures will be tweaked correctly, I believe you're right.
But it's still a crap idea, because:
Benefit: as you say, mostly occasional top up. this also means occasional (not constant) aurum milking for CCP
Cost: veterans pissd off (probably irrationally so, but that's how people are), newbros feeling ripped off (rightly so), CCP introducing the first real p2w mechanic in EVE history and exposing themselves to greed accusations
How is this a smart move???
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Mornak
Exotic Dancers Union SONS of BANE
58
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Posted - 2015.10.16 09:13:26 -
[1479] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:... Character ages and birth dates will become completely meaningless. ...
the same goes for actions a character takes in the game. you f***ed up big time? no problem, pay some ISK and move the SP's to a brand new alt. or an old alt that has been sitting around unskilled.
for pvp, character age is a very important info, since it allows you to estimate a maximum possible SP on that char. if i fight a late-2014/2015 char sitting in a BS or a HAC or alike, i can safely assume that he's not max-skilled on that ship/equipment.
After this change this will no longer be possible, since a 3 day old char can already have a ton of SP's. Checking KB's, reading char employment history, checking character age and so on are very important for small/solo pvp... at least until now.
..so you replace knowledge and experience with a "random element" (aggressors view). going the extra mile isn't worth anything anymore.
And this downside will not be as big a problem for us high-SP chars, but especially the new characters will suffer from this.
-1 |
E23
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.10.16 09:15:09 -
[1480] - Quote
Only the richest of all players can benefit from this model. Once players can buy and sell SP on the market the price can just raise as SP as a resource is much more limited than ISK is. So either those with the most ISK or those with the most $ will profit from it. And these are the people who already are (or at least look like to be) in an advanced position as both do not need to care about loosing stuff. New players instead care about loosing stuff. And they care about ISK and $. They won't be able to afford buying SP from self-earned ISK. They need to spend real money and they need to spend much of it. Will they?
Even then, sooner or later it will be too much if you do not control the market by fulfilling the demand with supply. So where comes the supply from? Out of nowhere? I can not believe that you at CCP have not considered that. What I can believe is that you do not have the balls to tell us directly you want (or need) to sell SP directly for real money as you fear our response. But you should also fear the results of such a shortsighted approach by ******* us up!
But wait ... wasn't it just about the character bazaar? Isn't it a fact that we can already buy SP with money? No, we can buy characters. And this is a huge difference because we only need a limited amount of characters but an almost unlimited amount of skillpoints.
Please, think again!
TL;DR:
- It would be even fairer for new players if you sell SP directly for AUR as the price would be fixated - It would be more transparent if you do so as you do not need to manipulate the market - It would still need a limiting factor such as addable SP per year - It may THEN be much more reasonable to NOT diminishing the SP/$ proportion based on existing SP as long term subscribers can at least decide whether they want to keep their SP lead by paying more * - It may still be the wrong concept at all **
(*) Though this might sound strange in the context of my introductory statement don't forget that veterans would be penalized with any kind of mechanics that narrows the SP gap. Where I personally feel that having SP more equally distributed on the playerbase (thus lowering the relative advance) can only bring in more fun to the game, a mechanic for keeping the absolute advance would still be present. Sometimes a power creep is the best solution, yes.
(**) Bring in other ideas which not directly involve RMT for SP - e.g. ...
Consider introducing an enormous SP/hour boost for ALL new characters:
- Activate it once a player pays a 3 month subscription (which approx. corresponds to a full price AAA title) or a special 3 month of dual character training - Let it slowly decrease from something like 1M SP on the first day to about 40M in total within this 90 days - Appease the veterans by still introducing the very interesting mechanic of letting us reallocate OUR OWN skills at a given cost (e.g. 50%) and maybe even give away every player 1M SP per year since DOB or per year of subscription / PLEX (yes, again a power creep might sometimes be the best solution) - Do the math and consider the possible revenues of having countless people training up multiple new chars (who really needs uber-SP chars when one can have 3 specialized chars instead?) vs. the risk of looking like a greedy P2W/F2P vendor who eventually kills its cash cow
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Li'Chi Wong
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.10.16 09:16:26 -
[1481] - Quote
- To be able to pay a fee to reallocate a certain number of SPs within a character at set time intervals - YES
- To be able pay a fee to change the name of a character at set time intervals with a way to reference the old names - YES
All the rest ........................... HELL NOOOOOOOO !!!!!!
It is cheaper to buy a pre-made character; you can buy one for less than it would cost to make it at today's PLEX prices.
Leave it at that!!!
If someone wants to buy a high SP toon let them. It works "as is".
It's not broke...... so don't try to fix it !!!!
What would be nice is a way to ......."tune our toons"
CCP can cash in on that and stick it to us......
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Dave Stark
7546
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Posted - 2015.10.16 09:17:38 -
[1482] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote: CCP introducing the first real p2w mechanic in EVE history and exposing themselves to greed accusations
How is this a smart move???
second, we already have the character bazzar if acquiring SP is "winning". |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1673
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:18:23 -
[1483] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote: CCP introducing the first real p2w mechanic in EVE history and exposing themselves to greed accusations
How is this a smart move??? second, we already have the character bazzar if acquiring SP is "winning".
Third, we have plex
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1752
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:18:33 -
[1484] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Ignorance of reality? The reality is I will never sell my character to anyone else. Therefore it is not a commodity and never will be which makes it as unique as a character can be. It is 'special' in so far as it is mine and only mine. Whatever anyone else does with their characters is entirely up to them. Then this change is of no consequence to you and harms you in no way. Those that don't use it and chose not to commodify their characters or SP can train as normal. I have no intent to use the feature, all the characters I would use it on have horrible return potential, but I see no reason to deny others.
It 'harms' me be changing the game so that a player with more RL money than me can just choose to be as competitive as me in each or all of the various areas I make ISK in simply by throwing RL money at it (or spare ISK if backed by one of the major groups with trillions to spare}. It also harms me as this will inevitably lead to an increase in PLEX way above and beyond the inflation we are currently seeing in them. It also changes one of the core tenets of the game that actions and decisions have persistent consequences.
It also offends my sensibilities in Lore terms :D I'm fine with skillbooks being some kind of nanobots injected in to make certain areas of the brain more plastic and pre-wired to assist in learning a skill. I'm not fine with the idea of simply rewriting a section of someones brain with a copy of a section of someone else's entirely different brain.
If CCP want to give players a way to speed up SP we as players can do very little about it. It would have been better in my opinion to allow new players to buy a new kind of cerebral accelerator that is produced in game and has diminishing returns up to say 50 mil SP (capped). Still not sure I'd like this but then you could always reward those characters who retain their original un-enhanced brain with a slightly better baseline learning rate than someone who uses the accelerators or something. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:21:22 -
[1485] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Great idea CCP +1 thanks for opening the game up a bit more to allow more people to enjoy themselves.
Will probably be looked back as one of the greatest changes EvE ever made once all the tin-foil hat doomsday preppers realize this isn't Y2K.
Except it will not happen, no matter how much you spam without any real arguments. Even if it happens, you would not play for too long before the game dies. Lose-Lose scenario for you :/
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26440
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:22:15 -
[1486] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tippia wrote:The character bazaar does not let you bypass game mechanics; this idea does. no, it doesn't. Yes it does, again, because we're talking raw SP.
Yes, the SP have to be trained, but they can be trained and applied in parallel and without limitation to the pre-existing progression mechanics of the character.
You bypass the mechanic that limit a single character to earn SP at 2700 SP/h. That character can now trivially acquire SP at two, three, ten times that speed if you're willing to pay for it. The parallelisation did not exist before, nor the direct effect on the pre-existing character.
Granted, trading entire skills bypasses the exact same mechanical limit, but it does so with strict limitations on applicability and parallelisation.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4125
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:22:56 -
[1487] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tippia wrote:The character bazaar does not let you bypass game mechanics; this idea does. no, it doesn't. those SP still have to be trained by some one. in the same way plex doesn't let you bypass the subscription because some one has to pay for that plex. Nope, read Tippia's post again.
A subscription is a tradable commodity: I can pay for my friend's subscription even without the PLEX mechanic.
ISK, as all other in-game virtual assets, is a tradable commodity: I'm free to give my ISK, ships, stuff to my friend even without him selling PLEX to buy them from me.
A character is a commodity in a sense: though it's against the EULA, from a gameplay perspective anyone can log in with my characters with no impact whatsoever on the game mechanics.
SP, until now at least, has never been a tradable commodity. Trading or even re-allocating SP is changing game mechanics just as, say, 'trading' 3,000 m/s speed on my interceptor orbiting a rock in highsec to boost the speed of your battleship PVPing in nullsec.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Li'Chi Wong
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.10.16 09:22:59 -
[1488] - Quote
Eternal Bob wrote:Scott Dracov wrote:I am an individual with unique real life aviation ... experiences rofl Why do you keep mentioning this as if it has any relevance at all? Better listen to this guy, CCP, he can fly a plane IRL.
I can fly them too and I'm licensed to repair them also, and I fly paragliders Wow ......does that mean CCP will listen to me too...lol
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epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1777
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Posted - 2015.10.16 09:24:11 -
[1489] - Quote
I have one major concern with this, in that the supply of "wasted" skills is extremely limited. After the initial flurry, there will be very few or none remaining. The effect of this is the initial supply will be bought up and simply become a chew toy for traders and speculators, and none will remain for actual ecenomic use by players.
Actually I like the developers idea with two provisos.
1. Make the loaded storage device perishable but tradable within that limit. This ensure eventual use rather than just being another trade token. Players can extend this by purchasing and placing the trained "stem cells" in a fresh storage container.
2. Preserve lost skillpoints when applying to experienced characters in a pool and redistribute during emergencies :) and celebrations
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
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Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
695
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:24:15 -
[1490] - Quote
No one is going to force you to give up your skill points.
If you don't want other people to buy your skill points, well then you don't have to extract them for sale.
Giving a veteran an opportunity to make a choice that not only benefits him self isk-financially but whomever decides to trade that fair amount to receive the product is only a win-win for everyone involved.
The only people who incorrectly think there is any negative are those who are imagining that their own skill point totals are some how going to become devalued.
My getting to have more skill points isn't going to make your already collected SP any less valuable. |
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Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
499
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Posted - 2015.10.16 09:25:51 -
[1491] - Quote
I had to check to make sure this wasn't dated April 1st.
First off, all the downsides you bring up with the Character Bazarr, are your own making. You could fix them if you were motivated to. You could make the buying/selling/trading of Characters a totally in-game mechanic, easily seen. You could make your own way to display skills and other important information without having to rely on Chribba's. You could let them resculpt their character, hell you could let them rename their character, though I am personally against that. So lets just call all of those excuses what they are, BS.
The Pay2Win aspects of this have been stated, so lets just assume I've covered much of them again and save ourselves a few paragraphs.
So here we are, when this happens you have no way of knowing if that 1 day old toon is just a lost noob, an alt, of a perfect skilled Titan pilot. One of the great things about Eve is what skills take X amount of time. Period. You can get implants but those are there for all. Everyone is on the same field, and always has been.
Near as I can tell from the devblog, you've added yet another reason people will need PLEX, and a market for them, driving up an item that is already reaching/reached the point of being unobtainable to all serious players. Gone are the days the casual weekend players can cover their costs (sure, Some can, but most can't.)
You've removed the Consequences that we all get preached on in Eve. Death has Consequences. But so did Life. You had a Corp History. You had to decide how to train your character. How to manage your time. Now you have no corp history, no need to ever decide how to manage your time if you have a CC. Hell you don't even have to worry about buying a toon with a bad history/rep/wasted SP because you just make your the way you want as needed.
It's a bad idea. Truly. I'd actually rather you put Officer Modules in the Aurum Store, than ever implement this. |
Pronoes
The Volition Cult
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:25:51 -
[1492] - Quote
Alensin Penshar wrote:
Are you paying attention, 18,445 pilots! Where the heck is Goonswarm for crying out loud! They have more pilots than that by like 3 to 1.
Lol. Maybe you should train Research I |
Dave Stark
7547
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Posted - 2015.10.16 09:27:14 -
[1493] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tippia wrote:The character bazaar does not let you bypass game mechanics; this idea does. no, it doesn't. Yes it does, because again, we're talking raw SP. This creates a situation that is vastly different from how the bazaar works. Yes, the SP have to be trained, but they can be trained and applied in parallel and without limitation to the pre-existing progression mechanics of the character. You bypass the mechanic that limit a single character to earn SP at 2700 SP/h. That character can now trivially acquire SP at two, three, ten times that speed if you're willing to pay for it. The parallelisation did not exist before, nor the direct effect on the pre-existing character. Granted, trading entire skills bypasses the exact same mechanical limit, but it does so with strict limitations on applicability and parallelisation.
all you've demonstrated is that this invalidates a function whereby age of a character determines the potential max sp it could have.
the loss of this, is... trivial and irrelevant.
I could always have a character that accumulated SP at 10x the rate mine had accumulated it; i could go and buy it from the bazzar.
not to mention there's that little thing where only a finite number of skills affect any one thing, and those skills are all capped at V so it's not like there's some hidden content behind some kind of pay wall. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
177
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Posted - 2015.10.16 09:29:45 -
[1494] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:I don't like this. Could be worse, but I don't like it.
A lowish hard cap would make it not as bad. But it still leads to "I just subscribed, but unless I spend more real money, I'll always be behind" For this to be even considered the hard cap would have to be no more than 20m SP. Anymore than 20m unallocated SP is just far too powerful. Even 20m seems like far too much, with 20m unallocated you can do a hell of a lot.
But this even then it is still a bad idea. Why not just improve the character bazaar. It has hardly been touched since it was released. For a start it could be integrated into the game. And I wouldn't be against more options to remodel the character (including name and history) for a cost.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Wiccan999
Starwinders NINE PIECES OF EIGHT
19
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Posted - 2015.10.16 09:32:25 -
[1495] - Quote
I normally don't react to this stuff , but come on CCP......really???
This is the worst Idea you had since monocoles...
So NO please , just do yourself a favor , and don't ever implement this.
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Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
500
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Posted - 2015.10.16 09:32:49 -
[1496] - Quote
Also, nice, near as I could see not a single post by a CSM supporting this. If as they all say they were against it in private, well then you can't say that you were warned. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26442
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:33:01 -
[1497] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:I could always have a character that accumulated SP at 10x the rate mine had accumulated it; i could go and buy it from the bazzar. No, you could never do that. You could only ever accumulate SP on a character at the speed dictated by the character's attributes. With this change, no such limit exists.
By trading SP rather than skills, accumulation speed has no upper limit and only depends on your willingness to shell out cash, and thus you have a situation where you pay to bypass a mechanical limitation GÇö a limitation that is in place in full force in the bazaar (which is why the bazaar doesn't break things).
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4126
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:34:33 -
[1498] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote: CCP introducing the first real p2w mechanic in EVE history and exposing themselves to greed accusations
How is this a smart move??? second, we already have the character bazzar if acquiring SP is "winning". Character bazaar =/= SP bazaar.
But hey, if Rise's sweet talk already convinced you that they're exactly the same thing, I'm afraid I can't help you.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9247
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:34:45 -
[1499] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:If you don't want other people to buy your skill points, well then you don't have to extract them for sale. But you can always do what I plan on doing. Just extract all the stupid skills off the characters I play regularly (how good will it feel to finally have a character without mining injected) and trash them if it doesn't add up to whatever the minimum is.
I don't care about getting ISK for a few days worth of SP, but I've been asking for years for CCP to allow us the option of simply deleting skills we don't want. I truly hope this will be possible if this goes through. I hope there will not be a mandatory minimum set on skill removal.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Hulk Miner
White Horse Incorporated
34
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Posted - 2015.10.16 09:36:58 -
[1500] - Quote
Stop with this craziness and just revamp the character bazaar. I don't pay RL cash to sub multiple accounts for crazy ideas like this to be dreamt up.
Do something more constructive and make the bazaar more like EBAY style bidding so you can bid and win characters then confirm on the forum to transfer ISK to the seller. It would make it a bit more visually interesting.
Don't sell out for cashcows. |
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Dave Stark
7547
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Posted - 2015.10.16 09:38:04 -
[1501] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I could always have a character that accumulated SP at 10x the rate mine had accumulated it; i could go and buy it from the bazzar. No, you could never do that. You could only ever accumulate SP on a character at the speed dictated by the character's attributes. With this change, no such limit exists. By trading SP rather than skills, accumulation speed has no upper limit and only depends on your willingness to shell out cash, and thus you have a situation where you pay to bypass a mechanical limitation GÇö a limitation that is in place in full force in the bazaar (which is why the bazaar doesn't break things).
eve is over 10 years old. we're well past the point where time is a factor in preventing some one being perfect at anything.
at this point in eve, it's largely irrelevant how fast people train skills. if you want a pilot that's perfect at anything you can just go and buy one.
yes, again the fact that the max sp is no longer dicated by character age - however you've yet to cite a a reason why this is even remotely an issue. again - if you want a character that's perfect at something you can already go and buy one.
this limitation doesn't limit anything other than the max sp on a character - which is irrelevant as i pointed out; only a finite number of skills affect any activity at any given time and we're LONG past the time where a situation exists where nobody has a character with a perfect skill set for any given activity. |
Reiisha
Repracor Industries
772
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:39:27 -
[1502] - Quote
Can we just all agree on this being a really bad idea and nip it in the bud?
CCP already is on a slippery slope with everything that's going on. They don't need to give themselves the push to go down all the way.
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
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Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
49
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:40:09 -
[1503] - Quote
Wow! What a spook. Halloweeen coming early this year? |
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
695
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:40:44 -
[1504] - Quote
So there isn't anything really wrong with the change, it's just "principle"?
Like, it's a great change that will most definitely result in alot more newer players trying the game and possibly sticking around long enough for us all to enjoy some new content via interaction with different people.
But because the idea is similar to pay to win, even though it's been established that it's not pay to win since skill points do not equal winning, we're revolting against it?
So the United States of America is blowing up Hospitals. All western countries are spying on and collecting data on all of their citizens for whatever nefarious purposes they can dream up. . .
But this is where we draw the line? This is the topic that gets the spergers blood boiling?
An idea that we correlate to pay to win, even though it's not, but we say it is because money is involved?
How silly. People like you are why I have such a superiority complex. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1598
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:44:05 -
[1505] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tippia wrote:The character bazaar does not let you bypass game mechanics; this idea does. no, it doesn't. Yes it does, because again, we're talking raw SP. This creates a situation that is vastly different from how the bazaar works. Yes, the SP have to be trained, but they can be trained and applied in parallel and without limitation to the pre-existing progression mechanics of the character. You bypass the mechanic that limit a single character to earn SP at 2700 SP/h. That character can now trivially acquire SP at two, three, ten times that speed if you're willing to pay for it. The parallelisation did not exist before, nor the direct effect on the pre-existing character. Granted, trading entire skills bypasses the exact same mechanical limit, but it does so with strict limitations on applicability and parallelisation. It more closely parallels what we see in the bazaar, but with greater granularity than GÇ£a whole characterGÇ¥ in terms of what you're trading.At that point, your observation would hold true: because you can only inject Carrier V once. With SP, that limit is gone, and with it any resemblance to the bazaar.
Apart from that, if you buy a character you buy its history, skill point allocation and its name, you're continuing that character's story progression. This new idea is circumventing normal procedure and character growth/advancement JUST like those Ishukone Scorps did back then and JUST as in that situation some folks at CCP apparently lack the understanding of how bad of an idea this is, which is quite worrying. |
Dezray Azizora
Quovis The Bastion
1
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Posted - 2015.10.16 09:44:09 -
[1506] - Quote
75 pages of the bitterest vet tears! I love it!
Also "winning" in eve isn't dictated by your SP it's dictated by your PLAYER skill, does it really frighten you that there might be a bunch of people who are better than you at playing eve that are going to lose there disadvantage to the people who have been playing longer? i hope that CCP does this so i can listen to the vets crying about how unfair it is that they have played for longer and this upstart 2 year old character just whelped them because suddenly it was a level playing field
Cry Me A River people! :D |
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
143
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Posted - 2015.10.16 09:44:19 -
[1507] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tippia wrote:The character bazaar does not let you bypass game mechanics; this idea does. no, it doesn't. those SP still have to be trained by some one. in the same way plex doesn't let you bypass the subscription because some one has to pay for that plex.
I have to agree with Tippia, I have played DUST514 and EVE for the same amount of time and to be honest DUST514 was the game that got me to start a toon in EVE. In DUST SP is not allocated, it is in a pool that I can draw from to "train" skills. I haven't even logged on in months but I know the the pool is growing, more slowly than EVE but growing, and I can just log on and train any skill I want.
With EVE I have a connection with the toon that I don't have in DUST, it -for whatever reason is different- is not the same. Burl here is a character that has trained to whatever I wanted at the moment or thought was good in the upcoming events. I look after him and mold him to the meta or to the desire of the moment whereas in DUST it is just logging in and tune him to the whatever is happening.
Playing both games has influenced me and I like EVE more because if I screw up it means something. DUST allows for SP respecs which I fought. Here. There is even a Hitler parody about it but I couldn't find it. Here in EVE my screw ups mean I didn't read the meta correctly or I lose out out on a certain thing but in DUST I just don't play and wait it out. Yeah, it is all about how I feel but is doesn't change the FEEL of the game and in the end that is all that matters and that is all CCP is banking on.
Making the game unique, making the story unique and making each individual player unique is what EVE is about and I think and feel that selling SP takes away from that feeling and without that feeling there isn't anything thing that distinguishes us from another game.
P.S. I am drunk, please forgive my mistakes and/or whatever.
Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why.
Hunter S. Thompson
|
Theo Sotken
Mother Knows Best Corporation
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:44:23 -
[1508] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tippia wrote:The character bazaar does not let you bypass game mechanics; this idea does. no, it doesn't. those SP still have to be trained by some one. in the same way plex doesn't let you bypass the subscription because some one has to pay for that plex.
Yes it does. It allows one character to benefit from the training of an unlimited amount of characters instantly. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
402
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:44:26 -
[1509] - Quote
Short break for catch up with some books and what? Pay to win? Really CCP? Whole unique character building system just landed in the dumpster. Wrong move IMO, it will backfire in the future. This will ruin whole player base.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Tex Raynor
The High and Mighty Carebear Abortion Clinic
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:45:46 -
[1510] - Quote
Love it. I suggest considering placing a cap, say around 150 or 200 mil sp, at which point sp cannot be injected. Otherwise one could technically purchase his way all up to maximum skillpoints - not sure if I am ok with that. |
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4130
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:47:25 -
[1511] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:this limitation doesn't limit anything other than the max sp on a character - which is irrelevant as i pointed out; only a finite number of skills affect any activity at any given time and we're LONG past the time where a situation exists where nobody has a character with a perfect skill set for any given activity. LOL worst example ever of a stale bittervet point of view.
If this were true, a fundamental game mechanic would be completely irrelevant. CCP should start worrying about how to completely revamp this (e.g. introducing new space that requires new skills, putting everybody on the same page again) instead of completing the f-up with this crap idea.
But since this isn't true, at least for all the players that have just started and/or don't hardcore grind ISK 10 hours/day and/or don't throw hundreds of $ in cash to buy PLEX, CCP would be wise to not f-up themselves a game mechanic (skill training) that's fundamentally not broken.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Uber Pie
40
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:47:53 -
[1512] - Quote
Buying SP for ISK/PLEX/Cash is already taking place at the character bazaar, so let's not hide our heads in the sand and pretend it's not taking place already.
Two comments from my end to limit abuse:
- A max limit of SP injections per year is a good idea I read in the thread. 2.5m SP is about a year's training @ 2610 SP per hr and there's a ton you can do with 2.5m SP reallocated. 5m is over the top in my book.
- A timer between SP injections as we have for Neural remapping. 1 year per injection sounds reasonable.
CorporationsUnlimitedGäó - Providing New Eden with High Faction Standing Corporations since 2010
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1673
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:48:55 -
[1513] - Quote
Tex Raynor wrote:Love it. I suggest considering placing a cap, say around 150 or 200 mil sp, at which point sp cannot be injected. Otherwise one could technically purchase his way all up to maximum skillpoints - not sure if I am ok with that.
there was a post earlier explaining what the cost would be to have max level, that wont happen...
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1723
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:49:02 -
[1514] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:No one is going to force you to give up your skill points.
If you don't want other people to buy your skill points, well then you don't have to extract them for sale.
Giving a veteran an opportunity to make a choice that not only benefits him self isk-financially but whomever decides to trade that fair amount to receive the product is only a win-win for everyone involved.
The only people who incorrectly think there is any negative are those who are imagining that their own skill point totals are some how going to become devalued.
My getting to have more skill points isn't going to make your already collected SP any less valuable. The backlash is based purely on your own improperly imagined sense of self-importance. It is funny that you actually think you or your newbro friends will somehow benefit from this at all.
While you are still celebrating about something you have no idea about how it will impact the game we already make plans how to gut that system if it actually hits the servers.
All the ingredients to this, SP and massive amounts of ISK, are in the hands of old players.
All you have to look forward too are massive PLEX prices and SP you are too pore to purchase. Sucks to be you.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Themes
Turcopolier
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:51:42 -
[1515] - Quote
NO |
Tex Raynor
The High and Mighty Carebear Abortion Clinic
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:51:44 -
[1516] - Quote
Uber Pie wrote:Buying SP for ISK/PLEX/Cash is already taking place at the character bazaar, so let's not hide our heads in the sand and pretend it's not taking place already. Two comments from my end to limit abuse:
- A max limit of SP injections per year is a good idea I read in the thread. 2.5m SP is about a year's training @ 2610 SP per hr and there's a ton you can do with 2.5m SP reallocated. 5m is over the top in my book.
- A timer between SP injections as we have for Neural remapping. 1 year per injection sounds reasonable.
Good points, a cap per year would also work. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1673
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:52:00 -
[1517] - Quote
Uber Pie wrote:Buying SP for ISK/PLEX/Cash is already taking place at the character bazaar, so let's not hide our heads in the sand and pretend it's not taking place already. Two comments from my end to limit abuse:
- A max limit of SP injections per year is a good idea I read in the thread. 2.5m SP is about a year's training @ 2610 SP per hr and there's a ton you can do with 2.5m SP reallocated. 5m is over the top in my book.
- A timer between SP injections as we have for Neural remapping. 1 year per injection sounds reasonable.
2.5mil sp is not a years worth of training
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
|
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
696
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:52:30 -
[1518] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:No one is going to force you to give up your skill points.
If you don't want other people to buy your skill points, well then you don't have to extract them for sale.
Giving a veteran an opportunity to make a choice that not only benefits him self isk-financially but whomever decides to trade that fair amount to receive the product is only a win-win for everyone involved.
The only people who incorrectly think there is any negative are those who are imagining that their own skill point totals are some how going to become devalued.
My getting to have more skill points isn't going to make your already collected SP any less valuable. The backlash is based purely on your own improperly imagined sense of self-importance. It is funny that you actually think you or your newbro friends will somehow benefit from this at all. While you are still celebrating about something you have no idea about how it will impact the game we already make plans how to gut that system if it actually hits the servers. All the ingredients to this, SP and massive amounts of ISK, are in the hands of old players. All you have to look forward too are massive PLEX prices and SP you are too pore to purchase. Sucks to be you.
So then you prove your intentions are set to serve no one but your own. Therefore any opinion you offer one way or the other is tainted by your impure personage relegating your opinion as nothing but manipulation for your sole benefit at the expense of others.
Thanks for exposing the truth about yourself so we know not to listen to what you try to say.
lol @ pore |
Dave Stark
7547
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:53:09 -
[1519] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:If this were true
uh, it is.
you can't magically train skills to VI, and not every skill applies to every activity, ship, or weapon. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
42
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:53:14 -
[1520] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:So there isn't anything really wrong with the change, it's just "principle"?
Like, it's a great change that will most definitely result in alot more newer players trying the game and possibly sticking around long enough for us all to enjoy some new content via interaction with different people.
But because the idea is similar to pay to win, even though it's been established that it's not pay to win since skill points do not equal winning, we're revolting against it?
So the United States of America is blowing up Hospitals. All western countries are spying on and collecting data on all of their citizens for whatever nefarious purposes they can dream up. . .
But this is where we draw the line? This is the topic that gets the spergers blood boiling?
An idea that we correlate to pay to win, even though it's not, but we say it is because money is involved?
How silly. People like you are why I have such a superiority complex.
Stop being ignorant for a start and read arguments people write and stop repeating bs. Also there is no point referring this to drawing the line related to RL politics / security measure / spying. Only correlation between this and RL is us being RL customers paying with RL money for CCP services.
It is not a great change and it will definitely NOT result in a lot more new players. Quite contrary. This change would have side effects firing left end right without real benefit.
I am glad you have superiority complex. Ignorant people usually do have it. What a coincidence eh? :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
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TurboX3
Hax. Shadow Cartel
143
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:54:48 -
[1521] - Quote
lm Stuck wrote:This is a terrible idea, and you should feel bad for suggesting it.
CCP Rise is killing this game one horrible idea at a time. smh
Seriously, is CCP so broke that this is even necessary? Stop being like every other company out there and quit treating your players like cashcows to be milked until dry.
This man is right....
No Trolling Please
|
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
696
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:55:18 -
[1522] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:So there isn't anything really wrong with the change, it's just "principle"?
Like, it's a great change that will most definitely result in alot more newer players trying the game and possibly sticking around long enough for us all to enjoy some new content via interaction with different people.
But because the idea is similar to pay to win, even though it's been established that it's not pay to win since skill points do not equal winning, we're revolting against it?
So the United States of America is blowing up Hospitals. All western countries are spying on and collecting data on all of their citizens for whatever nefarious purposes they can dream up. . .
But this is where we draw the line? This is the topic that gets the spergers blood boiling?
An idea that we correlate to pay to win, even though it's not, but we say it is because money is involved?
How silly. People like you are why I have such a superiority complex. Stop being ignorant for a start and read arguments people write and stop repeating bs.
I can say this exact same thing to you and it will be just as true, and probably more so.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
43
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:55:50 -
[1523] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Tex Raynor wrote:Love it. I suggest considering placing a cap, say around 150 or 200 mil sp, at which point sp cannot be injected. Otherwise one could technically purchase his way all up to maximum skillpoints - not sure if I am ok with that. there was a post earlier explaining what the cost would be to have max level, that wont happen...
There are people who spend thousands, even tents of thousands on this game, why do you think it is not going to happen? Rare cases of course, but it will happen.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1753
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:56:13 -
[1524] - Quote
Surely this idea amounts to giving older players more ways to make isk that simply aren't available to younger players. For instance I have a character trained up for POS management. He doesn't really do much else than that and PI but I still train as I still have to PLEX him. Now I would simply throw in a pair of +5's and train all skills on that branch starting with the lowest multipliers first.
I would also use a remap to max out those attributes thus giving perfect training rate to throw those skills at another player or character. It would probably become necessary for me to do this as PLEX will jump in price if this idea is implemented. New players will benefit from this only if they enjoy being rapidly milked for cash early on in the game.
Ed: Also isn't this just effectiviley allowing SP laundering from an awox character? Won't sell on the bazaar due to reputation so just slice and dice the brain and feed it to other alts instead. |
Uber Pie
40
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:56:16 -
[1525] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Uber Pie wrote:Buying SP for ISK/PLEX/Cash is already taking place at the character bazaar, so let's not hide our heads in the sand and pretend it's not taking place already. Two comments from my end to limit abuse:
- A max limit of SP injections per year is a good idea I read in the thread. 2.5m SP is about a year's training @ 2610 SP per hr and there's a ton you can do with 2.5m SP reallocated. 5m is over the top in my book.
- A timer between SP injections as we have for Neural remapping. 1 year per injection sounds reasonable.
2.5mil sp is not a years worth of training
You're absolutely right - my bad, missed a zero somewhere: It's 23m SP, so perhaps something between 10-20m would be more appropriate.
CorporationsUnlimitedGäó - Providing New Eden with High Faction Standing Corporations since 2010
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
43
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:57:44 -
[1526] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:So there isn't anything really wrong with the change, it's just "principle"?
Like, it's a great change that will most definitely result in alot more newer players trying the game and possibly sticking around long enough for us all to enjoy some new content via interaction with different people.
But because the idea is similar to pay to win, even though it's been established that it's not pay to win since skill points do not equal winning, we're revolting against it?
So the United States of America is blowing up Hospitals. All western countries are spying on and collecting data on all of their citizens for whatever nefarious purposes they can dream up. . .
But this is where we draw the line? This is the topic that gets the spergers blood boiling?
An idea that we correlate to pay to win, even though it's not, but we say it is because money is involved?
How silly. People like you are why I have such a superiority complex. Stop being ignorant for a start and read arguments people write and stop repeating bs. I can say this exact same thing to you and it will be just as true, and probably more so.
You can say, but the difference is that i have made numerous arguments against this and you did not manage to counter a single one. All you do is just repeat this is great idea and that it will be great benefit. I challenged that multiple times, yet it seems your superiority complex does not allow you to get in "fight' where you can lose so you stick to spamming same bs.
Edit: so just you saying it will not make it true at all, it will just make you look dumb ;)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Crashys
Zonk Squad CCLP
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 09:57:50 -
[1527] - Quote
RIP EVE.
So this mean i can finally stop playing this game? This is another way of EVE pretending to 'balance' things??
By having no respect for the fact i'm playing this crap since 2003 granting newbies easy ride to have same SPs as me as long as they are wealthy and buy toons of Plexs -> Convert to ISK -> Update char????
Does this mean finally "Chinese farming factories"???
Another invention from CCP that basically are trying to take as much as they can on a failscading game??
Well, that's why i started receiving messages from friends saying they will drop EVE Soon(tm). Now it makes sense. Nice one CCP.
|
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1673
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:00:40 -
[1528] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Tex Raynor wrote:Love it. I suggest considering placing a cap, say around 150 or 200 mil sp, at which point sp cannot be injected. Otherwise one could technically purchase his way all up to maximum skillpoints - not sure if I am ok with that. there was a post earlier explaining what the cost would be to have max level, that wont happen... There are people who spend thousands, even tents of thousands on this game, why do you think it is not going to happen? Rare cases of course, but it will happen.
if these people spend that amount already then whats the issue because they are already paying rl cash to gain an advantage
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
43
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:01:47 -
[1529] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Tex Raynor wrote:Love it. I suggest considering placing a cap, say around 150 or 200 mil sp, at which point sp cannot be injected. Otherwise one could technically purchase his way all up to maximum skillpoints - not sure if I am ok with that. there was a post earlier explaining what the cost would be to have max level, that wont happen... There are people who spend thousands, even tents of thousands on this game, why do you think it is not going to happen? Rare cases of course, but it will happen. if these people spend that amount already then whats the issue because they are already paying rl cash to gain an advantage
The issue is that this is supposed to help new players and it will not.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Patrick Yaa
Starcade Group Elemental Tide
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:02:41 -
[1530] - Quote
This is absolutely NOT targetted towards new players. Guybrush logs into the game, does the tutorial, sees the big spaceships, buys the skillpoints, and BAM he can fly an Abaddon/Raven/whatever, which he promptly buy withs a PLEX. yay. now what. Chances are, the shiny new ship will end up killed soon enough, because the only guns that kind of work will be faction guns. But hey, you just got a billion, money to spend. Even if Guybrush buys more skills, he still doesn't have the experience or ANYTHING required to fly a ship that size. He will be eaten by rats, because his tank isn't good enough, he will be hunted for the shinies. and this is all just in the FIRST FREAKIING WEEK he plays. yay, money spent on a game and woops he's gone. congrats.
This might be good for intermediate players who are already in a corp and want to fly a doctrine, but this. is. not. for. new. players.
goddammit
|
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9247
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:03:18 -
[1531] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: You can say, but the difference is that i have made numerous arguments against this and you did not manage to counter a single one.
Not to get in the middle of your little spat, but I just want to respond to that one thing.
Maybe your arguments aren't as grand as you think they are. Perhaps people feel they are not worth responding to as they are unrealistic at best and outright fabrications at worst.
Or something.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1673
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:04:48 -
[1532] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Tex Raynor wrote:Love it. I suggest considering placing a cap, say around 150 or 200 mil sp, at which point sp cannot be injected. Otherwise one could technically purchase his way all up to maximum skillpoints - not sure if I am ok with that. there was a post earlier explaining what the cost would be to have max level, that wont happen... There are people who spend thousands, even tents of thousands on this game, why do you think it is not going to happen? Rare cases of course, but it will happen. if these people spend that amount already then whats the issue because they are already paying rl cash to gain an advantage The issue is that this is supposed to help new players and it will not.
Quoted cost from previous pages:
3. The cost of buying SP will become increasing expensive. To give some numbers to this. To get a 20 million SP character with the current method I'd have to buy 22,750,000 SP to inject. That is, I have to buy 13.75% more SP than I am attempting to end up at. If I want to jump to 50 million SP I have to actually buy 60,250,000 SP or about 21% SP over where I'll end up. One poster blathered on about how there'd be all these characters with 600 million SP. Just to get to 500 million SP one would have to buy 3.495 billion SP. Yes, with a fracking 'B'...billion. So STFU about that ****.
So its not really going to be very economical to max level characters, once you get to the certain sp its going to be more viable buying a character from the bazaar
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
|
darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:05:06 -
[1533] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:So there isn't anything really wrong with the change, it's just "principle"?
Like, it's a great change that will most definitely result in alot more newer players trying the game and possibly sticking around long enough for us all to enjoy some new content via interaction with different people.
But because the idea is similar to pay to win, even though it's been established that it's not pay to win since skill points do not equal winning, we're revolting against it?
So the United States of America is blowing up Hospitals. All western countries are spying on and collecting data on all of their citizens for whatever nefarious purposes they can dream up. . .
But this is where we draw the line? This is the topic that gets the spergers blood boiling?
An idea that we correlate to pay to win, even though it's not, but we say it is because money is involved?
How silly. People like you are why I have such a superiority complex. Stop being ignorant for a start and read arguments people write and stop repeating bs. I can say this exact same thing to you and it will be just as true, and probably more so.
bullshit. he is making valid points spreaded all over the thread. he even explained why it would not lead to new players and this is were i agree with him.
this new mechanic is defnetly pay to win wich also was explained in this thread several times. |
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
696
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:06:13 -
[1534] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:So there isn't anything really wrong with the change, it's just "principle"?
Like, it's a great change that will most definitely result in alot more newer players trying the game and possibly sticking around long enough for us all to enjoy some new content via interaction with different people.
But because the idea is similar to pay to win, even though it's been established that it's not pay to win since skill points do not equal winning, we're revolting against it?
So the United States of America is blowing up Hospitals. All western countries are spying on and collecting data on all of their citizens for whatever nefarious purposes they can dream up. . .
But this is where we draw the line? This is the topic that gets the spergers blood boiling?
An idea that we correlate to pay to win, even though it's not, but we say it is because money is involved?
How silly. People like you are why I have such a superiority complex. Stop being ignorant for a start and read arguments people write and stop repeating bs. I can say this exact same thing to you and it will be just as true, and probably more so. You can say, but the difference is that i have made numerous arguments against this and you did not manage to counter a single one. All you do is just repeat this is great idea and that it will be great benefit. I challenged that multiple times, yet it seems your superiority complex does not allow you to get in "fight' where you can lose so you stick to spamming same bs. Edit: so just you saying it will not make it true at all, it will just make you look dumb ;)
It's not pay to win. Skill points don't equal winning.
If anything, buying PLEX is MORE pay to win because with tons of ISK from selling PLEX, you can pay an entire alliance to kick another alliance out of their home.
I don't see you crying on the forums about my ability to spend $10000 on plex and paying mercenaries to hellcamp others out of the game.
This isn't pay to win, at all.
It's like spending money to buy a new dress to wear to the big dance. O that Raven show cases my attributes much better than this incurses does. I'll be sure to have all the boys looking at my killboard if I wear that!
This entire thread is just full of a bunch of non-sensical crying about how the sky is falling. . . . but we're in space! There's no sky. It's just more space followed by more space, except now we're going to see people who've been playing for only 3 months flying around in ships that use to take 8 months to fly.
It's not a big deal. It doesn't change anything and the thought that it does is plain and simple a testament to yours and everyone else who agrees with your sentiment that you're irrational and over reacting at the mere thought of change, even though it's a change for the better.
Your crying is the same as dudes in 1956 crying about how back in their day it use to take them 3 weeks to drive across country and sure, now with the new interstate system it only takes 1, but by-golly it just ain't right dammit! If it was only suppose to take a few days to drive across the country, it would've only took that long back when I use to do it when I was a wee lad! |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
43
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:07:02 -
[1535] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: You can say, but the difference is that i have made numerous arguments against this and you did not manage to counter a single one.
Not to get in the middle of your little spat, but I just want to respond to that one thing. Maybe your arguments aren't as grand as you think they are. Perhaps people feel they are not worth responding to as they are unrealistic at best and outright fabrications at worst. Or something. Mr Epeen
If they were not good they would be quite easy to be challenged. And I am sure people would enjoy to do it. Considering how much "support" they are pushing into this and answering anything they can I am sure they would spend 1 min to make my arguments void and get me out of the discussion. You do not seem to be familiar with how forums work? :P
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7547
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:07:05 -
[1536] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:The issue is that this is supposed to help new players and it will not.
think i missed the line in the devblog that said that.
could you quote it for me, my eyesight seems to be failing me in my old age
Devblog wrote:For those reasons, weGÇÖve been wanting to take a look at improving the Bazaar for some time now. Recently, weGÇÖve seen new threads emerging where EVE players discuss options to help new players with progression. The combination of your threads and our Character Bazaar evaluation together were that extra kick in the pants to get us into gear.
they said that us discussing helping new players has kicked them in to gear, not that this idea is for new players. |
Hashtag Rare Pepe
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:08:05 -
[1537] - Quote
Reiisha wrote:Can we just all agree on this being a really bad idea and nip it in the bud?
CCP already is on a slippery slope with everything that's going on. They don't need to give themselves the push to go down all the way.
No? |
Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:08:26 -
[1538] - Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_gap
Eve is dying, eve is dying, yeah yeah yeah, eve is dying... Now I'm against it But Eve is dying, eve is dying, yeah yeah yeah, eve is dying...
Also free gold plated dominix for vets only, rainbow coloured text in local for vets only, name a planet for vets only, name a system for vets only...
No? Ah never mind... Its friday...
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
43
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:09:38 -
[1539] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote: Quoted cost from previous pages:
3. The cost of buying SP will become increasing expensive. To give some numbers to this. To get a 20 million SP character with the current method I'd have to buy 22,750,000 SP to inject. That is, I have to buy 13.75% more SP than I am attempting to end up at. If I want to jump to 50 million SP I have to actually buy 60,250,000 SP or about 21% SP over where I'll end up. One poster blathered on about how there'd be all these characters with 600 million SP. Just to get to 500 million SP one would have to buy 3.495 billion SP. Yes, with a fracking 'B'...billion. So STFU about that ****.
So its not really going to be very economical to max level characters, once you get to the certain sp its going to be more viable buying a character from the bazaar
I agree with that. But I never mentioned it as a key issue. How about you read this and then comment : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6101499#post6101499
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Sunstar Jonni
Leviathan Rising Affirmative.
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:09:39 -
[1540] - Quote
Seriouly is Rise running around smacking people with the wabbajack again! NO NO NO
I can see spending plex to change appearance\name would like some accounting in corp history for that however.
Even notification that a Char has changed hands.
But this SP buying and selling No I do not think this could ever work and not be completly abused. |
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25324
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:10:20 -
[1541] - Quote
Patrick Yaa wrote:This is absolutely NOT targetted towards new players. Guybrush logs into the game, does the tutorial, sees the big spaceships, buys the skillpoints, and BAM he can fly an Abaddon/Raven/whatever, which he promptly buy withs a PLEX. yay. now what. Chances are, the shiny new ship will end up killed soon enough, because the only guns that kind of work will be faction guns. But hey, you just got a billion, money to spend. Even if Guybrush buys more skills, he still doesn't have the experience or ANYTHING required to fly a ship that size. He will be eaten by rats, because his tank isn't good enough, he will be hunted for the shinies. and this is all just in the FIRST FREAKIING WEEK he plays. yay, money spent on a game and woops he's gone. congrats.
This might be good for intermediate players who are already in a corp and want to fly a doctrine, but this. is. not. for. new. players.
goddammit
Would that be Mr Threepwood?
I agree this isn't going to benefit new players, despite some people thinking otherwise. I normally laugh at the Eve is dying threads, unfortunately with this change CCP seem determined to grab all the cash they can while they take it in that direction with ill conceived crap like this, all the while saying "think of the children"
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4131
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:11:16 -
[1542] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:So there isn't anything really wrong with the change, it's just "principle"? Obviously you don't care about the principle. And you know what? From a personal perspective, in this case I don't care either.
When I'm out shooting people, I never think about how many SP they have and if those + or -5% will make any difference, because usually they simply don't.
Problem is, many people care about principles. I'm worried that because of principles and underlying game culture/style/philosophy there will be many more people leaving the game or simply enjoying it less than people joining or enjoying it more.
Also, I expect that the f*ing company making the game care about principles. I expect them to create and maintain meaningful and fun game mechanics, not offer players ways to skip them altogether if, and only if, they fork out $.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
43
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:11:55 -
[1543] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:So there isn't anything really wrong with the change, it's just "principle"?
Like, it's a great change that will most definitely result in alot more newer players trying the game and possibly sticking around long enough for us all to enjoy some new content via interaction with different people.
But because the idea is similar to pay to win, even though it's been established that it's not pay to win since skill points do not equal winning, we're revolting against it?
So the United States of America is blowing up Hospitals. All western countries are spying on and collecting data on all of their citizens for whatever nefarious purposes they can dream up. . .
But this is where we draw the line? This is the topic that gets the spergers blood boiling?
An idea that we correlate to pay to win, even though it's not, but we say it is because money is involved?
How silly. People like you are why I have such a superiority complex. Stop being ignorant for a start and read arguments people write and stop repeating bs. I can say this exact same thing to you and it will be just as true, and probably more so. You can say, but the difference is that i have made numerous arguments against this and you did not manage to counter a single one. All you do is just repeat this is great idea and that it will be great benefit. I challenged that multiple times, yet it seems your superiority complex does not allow you to get in "fight' where you can lose so you stick to spamming same bs. Edit: so just you saying it will not make it true at all, it will just make you look dumb ;) It's not pay to win. Skill points don't equal winning. If anything, buying PLEX is MORE pay to win because with tons of ISK from selling PLEX, you can pay an entire alliance to kick another alliance out of their home. I don't see you crying on the forums about my ability to spend $10000 on plex and paying mercenaries to hellcamp others out of the game. This isn't pay to win, at all. It's like spending money to buy a new dress to wear to the big dance. O that Raven show cases my attributes much better than this incurses does. I'll be sure to have all the boys looking at my killboard if I wear that! This entire thread is just full of a bunch of non-sensical crying about how the sky is falling. . . . but we're in space! There's no sky. It's just more space followed by more space, except now we're going to see people who've been playing for only 3 months flying around in ships that use to take 8 months to fly. It's not a big deal. It doesn't change anything and the thought that it does is plain and simple a testament to yours and everyone else who agrees with your sentiment that you're irrational and over reacting at the mere thought of change, even though it's a change for the better. Your crying is the same as dudes in 1956 crying about how back in their day it use to take them 3 weeks to drive across country and sure, now with the new interstate system it only takes 1, but by-golly it just ain't right dammit! If it was only suppose to take a few days to drive across the country, it would've only took that long back when I use to do it when I was a wee lad!
Nice post. Really. I just do not see how is it related to my arguments on the issue. So can you please first read some of my posts, for example https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6101499#post6101499 and then counter argument so we avoid your unnecessary spam and making you look like having no clue about what you are trying to counter argument? Thanks in advance.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
jaqwith
Tiefbauamt
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:13:15 -
[1544] - Quote
I got very mixed feelings about this.
It would be nice to reallocate skill points, but I don't like the idea of trading them. Just give every character the option to deallocate eg. 1M SP/year and increase that for traded chars.
A better integration of the Character Bazaar seems a good thing. To see a char's previous trades in a info tab would certainly be helpful.
The part I dislike most though is that the only limit for this activity seems to be ISK/AUR/money. There should be some time limit as well in my opinion GÇô either on extractor use or affected skill points. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1673
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:13:59 -
[1545] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Lan Wang wrote: Quoted cost from previous pages:
3. The cost of buying SP will become increasing expensive. To give some numbers to this. To get a 20 million SP character with the current method I'd have to buy 22,750,000 SP to inject. That is, I have to buy 13.75% more SP than I am attempting to end up at. If I want to jump to 50 million SP I have to actually buy 60,250,000 SP or about 21% SP over where I'll end up. One poster blathered on about how there'd be all these characters with 600 million SP. Just to get to 500 million SP one would have to buy 3.495 billion SP. Yes, with a fracking 'B'...billion. So STFU about that ****.
So its not really going to be very economical to max level characters, once you get to the certain sp its going to be more viable buying a character from the bazaar
I agree with that. But I never mentioned it as a key issue. How about you read this and then comment : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6101499#post6101499
i agree with all the alts stuff after all 3 new alts and you in theory you have to pay for another subscription, maybe ccp see it like that and realise they can make more money from the whole playerbase not just new players.
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
|
Ghengis Khuan
Zonk Squad CCLP
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:14:59 -
[1546] - Quote
I can tell you for sure, if you do this "pay to win" thing, i'll cancel all my subscriptions and quit playing for good. This is not EVE, this is something else. I'm defending my position telling you that you are going to blow up the game for good. EVE was unique a time ago, it is not anymore with all the changes you've made. If you proceed with this ideas and decisions, the game witch took more than a decade to develop will fall and your servers will get empty. So, go ahead...
Affff....
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Nillus K'varr
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:15:20 -
[1547] - Quote
I thought you were against RMT. But this screams 'farmer' like no other.
No, please. Just no. We don't need a Winter of Rage to complement the Summer from 4 years ago.
If you want reallocation just do it within the character itself and not with transactions. |
Tex Raynor
The High and Mighty Carebear Abortion Clinic
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:15:47 -
[1548] - Quote
To keep attribute choice relevant, sp should probably stay in their respective categories.
This would also prevent a character from training some perception/willpower max speed only to relocated the sp into say, charisma related skills.
Other than that, can't wait to see the final iteration.
And for those claiming this make your character OP-pay-to-win... unless you can magically fly more than 1 ship I fail to find this argument convincing. Ever since I passed 100 mil sp, I have been queuing level 5 skills, in no particular order, which provide marginal benefits. Still die to the blob, still get killed by half-skilled hard counters, still pwn F1 kitchensink fleets... |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:17:27 -
[1549] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:The issue is that this is supposed to help new players and it will not. think i missed the line in the devblog that said that. could you quote it for me, my eyesight seems to be failing me in my old age Devblog wrote:For those reasons, weGÇÖve been wanting to take a look at improving the Bazaar for some time now. Recently, weGÇÖve seen new threads emerging where EVE players discuss options to help new players with progression. The combination of your threads and our Character Bazaar evaluation together were that extra kick in the pants to get us into gear. they said that us discussing helping new players has kicked them in to gear, not that this idea is for new players.
"Recently, weGÇÖve seen new threads emerging where EVE players discuss options to help new players with progression. The combination of your threads and our Character Bazaar evaluation together were that extra kick in the pants to get us into gear."
To start with. Just noticed you quoted it as well. Whole diminishing return mechanism setup is that new players get the most of the benefit out of it. If they are willing to spend additional cash for a game they just started. IF. I am sure majority will not and as i already mentioned numerous times before, game fundamentals are being changed for something that will not yield any real benefit. Set sail for fail.
Regardless of that, it is main "argument" of supporters of this idea. And it is fail argument as it will not work as intended.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4133
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:20:38 -
[1550] - Quote
Tex Raynor wrote:And for those claiming this make your character OP-pay-to-win... unless you can magically fly more than 1 ship I fail to find this argument convincing. Ever since I passed 100 mil sp, I have been queuing level 5 skills, in no particular order, which provide marginal benefits. Still die to the blob, still get killed by half-skilled hard counters, still pwn F1 kitchensink fleets... Agree. So why do the players need this pay-to-SP crap?
If it was, say, a once-an-year partial skill reallocation I'd say ok, whatever, maybe good maybe bad, who cares.
But since it's a whenever-you-pay-us mechanic, I can't help thinking it's stinky and shady as hell...
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
|
Jaime Wulfe
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:21:00 -
[1551] - Quote
If I could turn back time...
... I would have left with phoebe. |
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
145
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:22:51 -
[1552] - Quote
http://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/news/a22550/pornstars-before-and-after/
Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why.
Hunter S. Thompson
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:23:37 -
[1553] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Lan Wang wrote: Quoted cost from previous pages:
3. The cost of buying SP will become increasing expensive. To give some numbers to this. To get a 20 million SP character with the current method I'd have to buy 22,750,000 SP to inject. That is, I have to buy 13.75% more SP than I am attempting to end up at. If I want to jump to 50 million SP I have to actually buy 60,250,000 SP or about 21% SP over where I'll end up. One poster blathered on about how there'd be all these characters with 600 million SP. Just to get to 500 million SP one would have to buy 3.495 billion SP. Yes, with a fracking 'B'...billion. So STFU about that ****.
So its not really going to be very economical to max level characters, once you get to the certain sp its going to be more viable buying a character from the bazaar
I agree with that. But I never mentioned it as a key issue. How about you read this and then comment : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6101499#post6101499 i agree with all the alts stuff after all 3 new alts and you in theory you have to pay for another subscription, maybe ccp see it like that and realise they can make more money from the whole playerbase not just new players.
Majority of new players cannot afford it. For older players the return is quite low so I doubt many will do it. Ie they are ready to change game fundamentals for something which will have weak results? What`s next we can expect? No idea if they have no consistency and who would want to invest years of playing in something which does not have consistency? Not many for sure.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:24:27 -
[1554] - Quote
Wrong c/p? :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Jade Blackwind
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
666
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:25:11 -
[1555] - Quote
A bold move!
Years later, watching a sunset on a water world somewhere near Sagittarius A*, I'll probably have those fond memories of EVE, what it could become, and what it ultimately couldn't. I'll then exit E:D, load some screenshots from my first EVE trial in 1997 and shed a crocodile tear or two.
*sigh* |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4133
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:25:30 -
[1556] - Quote
Most of them are even better 'before'.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
145
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:26:30 -
[1557] - Quote
... think i fixed it
http://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/news/a22550/pornstars-before-and-after/ if not, really drunk
Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why.
Hunter S. Thompson
|
Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co. I N F A M O U S
511
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:27:41 -
[1558] - Quote
Eternal Bob wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote:This means from now on no matter what decision you make in the game it has no consequence any more? Just buy some more SP to get all the ships you want to fly, without any effort. Tell me all about the effort needed to gain skill points currently.
Time. |
Dave Stark
7549
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:29:19 -
[1559] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Eternal Bob wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote:This means from now on no matter what decision you make in the game it has no consequence any more? Just buy some more SP to get all the ships you want to fly, without any effort. Tell me all about the effort needed to gain skill points currently. Time.
or money, pay some one else for their time. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6852
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:32:25 -
[1560] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Tex Raynor wrote:And for those claiming this make your character OP-pay-to-win... unless you can magically fly more than 1 ship I fail to find this argument convincing. Ever since I passed 100 mil sp, I have been queuing level 5 skills, in no particular order, which provide marginal benefits. Still die to the blob, still get killed by half-skilled hard counters, still pwn F1 kitchensink fleets... Agree. So why do the players need this pay-to-SP crap? If it was, say, a once-an-year partial skill reallocation I'd say ok, whatever, maybe good maybe bad, who cares. But since it's a whenever-you-pay-us mechanic, I can't help thinking it's stinky and shady as hell... But if you bought it from another player....
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
69
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:35:14 -
[1561] - Quote
Skebet wrote:To me the saddest part of all of this is that CCP itself doesn't seem to understand that Eve is not a spaceship simulation game; that is, characters are not meaningless bags of fungible SP. Eve is a role-playing game; each character has a unique history, reputation, quirks, oddities - a real personality of its own. If you want to control a character completely, make it yourself. Buying and selling entire characters works because each character is preserved as a unique entity. Devolving characters into sacks of points that can be bought and sold with granularity will completely destroy any sense of identity and, perhaps worse, any individual sense of progression.
Hilmar, the rest of you, please see what it means to create a true role playing universe and then potentially destroy its sense of place and soul. Realize this is a mistake and don't do it. The long term consequences will be dire. Please believe us and stop this plan.
With love and respect Skebet
I believe the real problem is not that CCP does not understand that. Sadly I think that CCP do understand, but act upon that would be act against a playerbase that is actually the part that dont understand that.
Incarna, WiS, Content, Immersion in general, it is all compromised by the idea of favouring a sector of the playerbase in detriment of another.
There was not only one person in these forums to use the argument that "people dont play MMOs for lore and immersion, but for progression in content and pvp".
It is indeed sad.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1293
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:36:43 -
[1562] - Quote
I don't even really care about being able to buy SP for any char. Even if we consider the character bazaar the be an equal thing, which it isn't. There's a lot of hoops to jump through to buy a character.
Anyway, what I'm concerned with is how this is going to essentially **** over the entire skill system. Why have a skill system to begin with if newbies can simply pay 10 bucks and advance a month?
Let me explain. A while ago there was some racing game, I think it was Forza, that introduced a way to buy new cars with real money instead of having to grind for it. You could still earn all the cars without paying by just grinding hours into the game so it wasn't really exclusive content, but the grinding would require a good 500 hours of play time before you got to the best car. In other words, the grind was purposely made so long that just investing some money sees like a more decent alternative to getting that shiny car.
Going back to EVE, the skill system has always been the backbone of the game. Everyone progresses roughly at the same speed and because it's roughly the same for everyone, there has never been a reason to really complain about the training length. However, that becomes an issue when you start offering people the option to buy unallocated SP, because now suddenly that long training time is directly used to encourage micro transactions. You're basically telling people that they can either wait a month to fly a Battleship, or pay 10 bucks and fly it right now. If you're going to introduce a system like this you need to take a very long hard look at the training times as they stand today. You're obviously trying to cater to the instant gratification crowd, so maybe a skill that takes 60 days to reach level 5 isn't really fit for this day and age anymore. If you're trying to cater to that particular crowd, why not half all training times across the board and maybe it will make the buying SP thing a bit more balanced.
My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!
My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4136
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:37:10 -
[1563] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Tex Raynor wrote:And for those claiming this make your character OP-pay-to-win... unless you can magically fly more than 1 ship I fail to find this argument convincing. Ever since I passed 100 mil sp, I have been queuing level 5 skills, in no particular order, which provide marginal benefits. Still die to the blob, still get killed by half-skilled hard counters, still pwn F1 kitchensink fleets... Agree. So why do the players need this pay-to-SP crap? If it was, say, a once-an-year partial skill reallocation I'd say ok, whatever, maybe good maybe bad, who cares. But since it's a whenever-you-pay-us mechanic, I can't help thinking it's stinky and shady as hell... But if you bought it from another player.... Actually you're buying it from CCP twice:
1st time: subscription to train the SP in the first place
2nd time: aurum to transfer them
Fascinating way to milk money, isn't it?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Big Lynx
4025
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:37:11 -
[1564] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:
Please do not do this.
THIS |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25327
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:40:17 -
[1565] - Quote
Big Lynx wrote:Ripard Teg wrote:
Please do not do this.
THIS Agreed, I thought it'd be a cold day in hell before I ever agreed with anything Ripard Teg has to say after eroticagate, yesterday, hell froze over.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
696
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:40:28 -
[1566] - Quote
Rather than buying skill points, personally I would rather new players be able to complete missions that involved traveling into low and null sec space to accomplish it's objectives, whatever those objectives may be.
Ship specific missions that offered your choice of rewards towards that ships specific "mastery level" in skill point allocation.
So lets say I want to fly a Drake. I go to one of the NPC agents that offer Drake missions. I put down my ISK desposit, like 70 million and I get to fly around this drake with it's mastery level 1, 2, 3 whatever gets decided as the baseline. I get sent to low sec to do a mission chain.
While I'm doing this mission chain I get experience with the drake. I get an idea of a possible fit that indicates at least an idea of how the ship is suppose to be flown. If I complete the mission, I get skill points towards being able to fly one of my own accord whenever and however I want.
This will allow me and anyone else doing these missions for whatever ship they've chosen to get to know if continuing down the path of training for it is indeed something we want to do. Also, it gets us out into the game in dangerous situations really seeing what the game offers. It puts us out in the field so others can try to stop us from accomplishing our objectives. If we get destroyed, we lose the deposit. If we don't complete the mission in time, the ship gets repo'd and we have to limp back to wherever we choose to go in a noob ship or capsule.
Times change, and if the game doesn't change, it wont grow. We already see it's not growing anymore. It's not even stagnant. The numbers are declining (debatable but not going to debate it). This is a drastic change, and CCP is probably considering it because drastic times call for desperate measures.
It's nice that the game has held together so well over the years, but nothing lasts forever. Instead of rolling over and accepting a slow death, CCP is showing it has the balls to make big changes to the core constructs of the game in an effort to give us what we all really want: A more populated EvE.
Now if people would stop threatening to quit or actually quitting the game, a fun game, over silly ideals and principles that ultimately do not negatively effect anything other than their egos and perception of how they personally feel the game should be, then we would stand a real chance at convincing all those newbros who've stepped away to come back and give it another shot.
Throttle back on the knee jerk reactions because Change scares you.
Things are always changing, and the ability to do so is what separates the living from the dead. |
Epic Name
The Scope Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:45:09 -
[1567] - Quote
Dezray Azizora wrote:75 pages of the bitterest vet tears! I love it!
Also "winning" in eve isn't dictated by your SP it's dictated by your PLAYER skill, does it really frighten you that there might be a bunch of people who are better than you at playing eve that are going to lose there disadvantage to the people who have been playing longer? i hope that CCP does this so i can listen to the vets crying about how unfair it is that they have played for longer and this upstart 2 year old character just whelped them because suddenly it was a level playing field
Cry Me A River people! :D You know it! +1
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Big Lynx
4025
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:45:12 -
[1568] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Big Lynx wrote:Ripard Teg wrote:
Please do not do this.
THIS Agreed, I thought it'd be a cold day in hell before I ever agreed with anything Ripard Teg has to say after eroticagate, yesterday, hell froze over.
Well, finally I'd have a good reason to put EvE on ice for a long time or forever. |
Eternal Bob
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:45:46 -
[1569] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I could always have a character that accumulated SP at 10x the rate mine had accumulated it; i could go and buy it from the bazzar. No, you could never do that. You could only ever accumulate SP on a character at the speed dictated by the character's attributes. With this change, no such limit exists. By trading SP rather than skills, accumulation speed has no upper limit and only depends on your willingness to shell out cash, and thus you have a situation where you pay to bypass a mechanical limitation GÇö a limitation that is in place in full force in the bazaar (which is why the bazaar doesn't break things).
The limitations on SP accumulation speed will remain for characters whose SP are being harvested. Extra SP will not be generated out of thin air and thus nothing is being broken. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1599
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:50:14 -
[1570] - Quote
Eternal Bob wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I could always have a character that accumulated SP at 10x the rate mine had accumulated it; i could go and buy it from the bazzar. No, you could never do that. You could only ever accumulate SP on a character at the speed dictated by the character's attributes. With this change, no such limit exists. By trading SP rather than skills, accumulation speed has no upper limit and only depends on your willingness to shell out cash, and thus you have a situation where you pay to bypass a mechanical limitation GÇö a limitation that is in place in full force in the bazaar (which is why the bazaar doesn't break things). The limitations on SP accumulation speed will remain for characters whose SP are being harvested. Extra SP will not be generated out of thin air and thus nothing is being broken.
You're actively avoiding Tippia's point. |
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Dave Stark
7549
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:50:34 -
[1571] - Quote
Eternal Bob wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I could always have a character that accumulated SP at 10x the rate mine had accumulated it; i could go and buy it from the bazzar. No, you could never do that. You could only ever accumulate SP on a character at the speed dictated by the character's attributes. With this change, no such limit exists. By trading SP rather than skills, accumulation speed has no upper limit and only depends on your willingness to shell out cash, and thus you have a situation where you pay to bypass a mechanical limitation GÇö a limitation that is in place in full force in the bazaar (which is why the bazaar doesn't break things). The limitations on SP accumulation speed will remain for characters whose SP are being harvested. Extra SP will not be generated out of thin air and thus nothing is being broken.
in fact, due to the diminishing returns SP is being thrown in to the void. |
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1318
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:53:15 -
[1572] - Quote
After reading Sugar Kyle's (Current CSM member) post at Crossing Zebras it's apparent that CCP really do want to go down this path:
Sugar Kyle at Crossing Zebras wrote:When this was proposed at the CSM summit, I swiveled my chair and asked if they realized that they were undoing the basic structure that characters and game progression worked under. They said that they did. I tried to wrap my head around it. Things would change, meanings would be different, and a shift that feels gradual but enormous would happen and it would carry with it changes that we could not foresee.
For the full story I've linked it below as source:
Source: Conflicted
So sad to see this from CCP and how short their memories are.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
|
darmwand
Repo.
233
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:53:49 -
[1573] - Quote
This is an awful idea. It appears the devs are putting more and more effort into appeasing a crowd that a) does not care about the game and never will and b) would be bad for Eve's general health even if they started playing, thus they come up with quick money-grabbing schemes for the short-tempered and impatient casual players.
A look at the current player numbers should be a warning that maybe, just maybe, the people who play Eve are not interested in an easier, faster-paced and dumber game. Waiting for your skills is part of what makes people (at least me) attached to their characters; I still remember when I had to wait for AWU 5 and the joy I felt once it was trained.
In combination with multi-character training this will pretty much allow people to generate arbitrary amounts of SP out of thin air. Admittedly the price would probably be a bit high at first but then, once this is in the game, making it more affordable is only a matter of a few minor tweaks. This kind of thinking has ruined many a game before and it was the very thing that we protested against back then.
"The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."
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Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
696
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:59:11 -
[1574] - Quote
His point is stupid.
He's saying that because the character that was being trained was adhering to a CCP designated "speed limit" as to how many skill points it was possible to gain per hour, that when I purchase that character via char bazaar it's some how the defacto difference that determines allowable and unallowable.
But when it comes down to it, I'm still personally spending zero time involved with that characters training, so to me, that character is essentially born out of nothing and coming into my ownership with no time cost.
Now his point is "someone had to spend that amount of time administering the training queue" and since it leveled at a finite rate, it's special and OK. But an equivalent amount of possible time within the confines of the speed limit was expended by SOMEONE when a specific character is now benefiting from increased SP thanks to a skill extractor.
His issue seems to be in some backwards separation between character and owner. That even though I can buy a character without my having spent zero time nuturing it's training, that it's OK compared to my spending zero time using someone else's skill points they've sold me to level up one specific character.
It's dumb |
Big Lynx
4027
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 10:59:32 -
[1575] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:After reading Sugar Kyle's (Current CSM member) post at Crossing Zebras it's apparent that CCP really do want to go down this path: Sugar Kyle at Crossing Zebras wrote:When this was proposed at the CSM summit, I swiveled my chair and asked if they realized that they were undoing the basic structure that characters and game progression worked under. They said that they did. I tried to wrap my head around it. Things would change, meanings would be different, and a shift that feels gradual but enormous would happen and it would carry with it changes that we could not foresee. For the full story I've linked it below as source: Source: Conflicted So sad to see this from CCP and how short their memories are.
It seems the main goal of CCP's CEOs is maximum money extraction `from the players and NOT improving the game experience for them. Bad move CCP, bad move.
But as times change and the responsibles of CCP too, I'd say New brooms sweep clean, don't they CCP? |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1673
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:00:37 -
[1576] - Quote
skills are not being conjured out of thin air, somebody HAS to train these skills originally.
I dont really care about this change to be honest as my own skill progression is not capped or changed this is just a complete optional thing.
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Dave Stark
7549
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:01:28 -
[1577] - Quote
darmwand wrote:would be bad for Eve's general health
i love how your post opens with this, and fails to justify it in any way what so ever. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
601
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:01:56 -
[1578] - Quote
Big Lynx wrote:
Well, finally I'd have a good reason to put EvE on ice for a long time or forever.
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JSSix
CRY.NET Nihilists Social Club
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:02:35 -
[1579] - Quote
Ohh Hell No...
one of the most stupid idea ever CCP has cooked up in their labs....
not to mention the deminishing return and of course... a new way to milk money from customer by CCP.
but its just stupid.. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6852
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:03:07 -
[1580] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Eternal Bob wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I could always have a character that accumulated SP at 10x the rate mine had accumulated it; i could go and buy it from the bazzar. No, you could never do that. You could only ever accumulate SP on a character at the speed dictated by the character's attributes. With this change, no such limit exists. By trading SP rather than skills, accumulation speed has no upper limit and only depends on your willingness to shell out cash, and thus you have a situation where you pay to bypass a mechanical limitation GÇö a limitation that is in place in full force in the bazaar (which is why the bazaar doesn't break things). The limitations on SP accumulation speed will remain for characters whose SP are being harvested. Extra SP will not be generated out of thin air and thus nothing is being broken. in fact, due to the diminishing returns SP is being thrown in to the void. SP sinks huh~~
Imagine if we had diminishing returns on isk transfers
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
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Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
696
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:06:08 -
[1581] - Quote
You know how people are always arguing in that one thread that has like 200 pages about EVE DECLINE RAMPANT?
Where half the dudes are like, it's dying! and the other half are like, "no it's not you have no proof!"
Well uhhhhhhhhhh
this is kind of proof that the "eve is dying" guys are right, dontcha think?
So instead of making matters worse by adversely reacting to the change being adminstered by the people who's very lives rely upon the success of this game via threatening to quit and spewing vitriol, you throttle back a bit and let Jesus, I mean CCP take the wheel on this one?
Obviously game isn't doing so well, so a change is needed. EvE can't retain new players, proven by their willingness to make such a drastic change in an effort to entice new players into wanting to give this game another go and the means to reach a level where they can personally feel satisfied with their ability to perform/contribute in a meaningful manner that convinces them to stick around and become long term subscribers to the beauty this game offers via personal interaction with others flying ships in space.
It doesn't actually hurt any of you. You're just imagining that it will. |
Artemis Ellery Sazas
Shock and Awe Inc.
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:06:32 -
[1582] - Quote
I just threw up in disgust. |
Astroyka
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
179
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:07:00 -
[1583] - Quote
If the idea that this is for new players, it really isn't.
Looking at the bazaar now and doing the math, the skill packets will be about 250M to 350M ISK each. Your avg newbro will need to be cash rich and committed to playing eve to spend RL cash to advance his/her char.
I doubt there will be many newbro's doing that.
This is for committed players (vets?) who want a new clean char but don't want to create a new account/sub and do it the "hard" way.
Aside from the ISK/$ cost, losing a character's history bothers me. Probably more than it should, but I like the intel I get from seeing the age of a char and its employment history even if there are a lot of assumptions I make from that data.
Astroyka
A Mirkur Draug'Tyr pilot, fighting against slavery in New Eden
www.astroyka.net
@Astroyka
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Dave Stark
7550
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:07:36 -
[1584] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Eternal Bob wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I could always have a character that accumulated SP at 10x the rate mine had accumulated it; i could go and buy it from the bazzar. No, you could never do that. You could only ever accumulate SP on a character at the speed dictated by the character's attributes. With this change, no such limit exists. By trading SP rather than skills, accumulation speed has no upper limit and only depends on your willingness to shell out cash, and thus you have a situation where you pay to bypass a mechanical limitation GÇö a limitation that is in place in full force in the bazaar (which is why the bazaar doesn't break things). The limitations on SP accumulation speed will remain for characters whose SP are being harvested. Extra SP will not be generated out of thin air and thus nothing is being broken. in fact, due to the diminishing returns SP is being thrown in to the void. SP sinks huh~~ Imagine if we had diminishing returns on isk transfers
"today numerous players have been banned by CCP peligro for automating isk transfers of 1 isk at a time to bypass diminishing returns on isk transfers".
edit: i feel the need to point out this is an entirely fabricated quote by me, and nothing of the like has actually occurred... don't want to be a stunt flores mk2. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
602
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:08:06 -
[1585] - Quote
JSSix wrote:Ohh Hell No...
one of the most stupid idea ever CCP has cooked up in their labs....
not to mention the deminishing return and of course... a new way to milk money from customer by CCP.
but its just stupid..
This is the way how to keep cssh flow growing while online is stagnat. |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
99
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:08:27 -
[1586] - Quote
I invite anyone who wants to settle their argument once and for all to face a T3 Cruiser by a pilot that may have started playing as long as minimally possible to pilot said cruiser with a Mastery Level 2, in a Racial Frigate with no moludles other than the ones possible with starting skills, and only in a manner consistent with just finished career agent.
Unless you are able to show a real fight that could end up with the Frigate victory, your saying that SP means nothing and only player IRL skill does is just Charismatic Non-Sense.
So it is to say SP is everything, unless you can show a skilled IRL lose to a unskilled players with conditions otherwise identical.
Either means nothing, together they mean something. It is exactly the problem with SP sale. It makes one and another lose ties, therefore, voiding the meaning of both.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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Dave Stark
7550
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:10:29 -
[1587] - Quote
Astroyka wrote:If the idea that this is for new players, it really isn't.
Looking at the bazaar now and doing the math, the skill packets will be about 250M to 350M ISK each. Your avg newbro will need to be cash rich and committed to playing eve to spend RL cash to advance his/her char.
I doubt there will be many newbro's doing that.
This is for committed players (vets?) who want a new clean char but don't want to create a new account/sub and do it the "hard" way.
Aside from the ISK/$ cost, losing a character's history bothers me. Probably more than it should, but I like the intel I get from seeing the age of a char and its employment history even if there are a lot of assumptions I make from that data.
they're going to be more than that.
do the math. on a perfect remap with +5s, 7.7 days to get 500,000 SP. 7.7 days game time at current plex prices - 400m. (now add on whatever the extractor will cost).
you're looking at 400m+
if chars on the bazzar are going for 250-350m/per 500,000 sp then new players are better off buying a new character than buying straight SP. even more so since people who train characters for sale are less likely to have wasted/redundant skills trained so they'll get more bang for their buck. |
Gumby Roffo
Know Your Neighbors Emporium WO'S HO'S
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:11:08 -
[1588] - Quote
Woot... I'll be flying Titans in no time flat I just won't know how to properly. Now if only I can buy moon goo easily and have it delivered. |
Dave Stark
7550
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:11:56 -
[1589] - Quote
Gumby Roffo wrote:Woot... I'll be flying Titans in no time flat I just won't know how to properly. Now if only I can buy moon goo easily and have it delivered.
open the market window. buy moon goo. create courrier contract. ???? success? |
Thebriwan
LUX Uls Xystus
219
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:14:46 -
[1590] - Quote
To all the P2W sayers: Since when makes you getting more skillpoints better at this game?
Personally I would not change a single skill of my character because the skills are living history, I am attached to them.
"Look at the BC-3 - I trained this when I have gotten my first drake."
What I could see being useful and fair would be an implementation where you have to biomass a char to get his skillpoints. That would be like the character basar without the name problem. |
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4139
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:14:47 -
[1591] - Quote
TO THOSE SUPPORTING THIS:
If you think SP-trading makes sense, why not take all the Aurum crap out of the equation and make everything super simple?
1. You can drain SP from any character, anytime; why should we need for rip-off 'extractors'???
2. The SP you drain becomes freely tradable in any way and on a unit basis, just like any other item (think ammo, for example)
3. You can freely apply this SP to any character, anytime; why should we need for rip-off 'applicators'???
4. SP drained-to-SP available ratio to be defined. Just as an example, say you get 1 freely usable SP for every 5 you drain. So draining 500,000 SP gives you 50,000 SP that you're free to trade, give away, sell, use yourself. I'm sure CCP and/or character bazaar experts can come up with a better ratio
5. The Jita price per SP will be freely set by the players. It's a sandbox! Or you can give them out for free or charge whatever you wish.
Not sure this is a good idea gameplay-wise, but isn't it definitely better than the proposed system?
If you think SP draining/trading/selling/injecting is a good idea, why the hell does CCP need to profit from this addition to the gameplay?
This pretty much sums up my point of view I guess. I'm more or less neutral to the SP-trading idea, but what I definitely don't like is the Aurum part, that just makes it needlessly shady.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Inferno Bourbon
ComCon Gaming Community Soviet-Union
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:14:53 -
[1592] - Quote
The way I see it we have two ways to gain SP:
- spend time and money to train or - spend more money to buy SP(pilots)
What CCP proposed here is nothing new, just another way to spend even more money to buy SP.
See nothing wrong with that, go for it, CCP. if people are willing to pay you for aurum and get these new sp-items, than by all means they should be able to do that. If they don't want it, well, they just won't use it. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26449
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:15:21 -
[1593] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:eve is over 10 years old. we're well past the point where time is a factor in preventing some one being perfect at anything. So what?
The point remains the same: this idea will let you bypass a core game mechanic simply by throwing cash at it, which is entirely unlike anything we've had before, and which is an inherently bad thing. The goals of the change can be achieved without ever coming close to this kind of dimwitted solution and without breaking any game mechanics. All that needs to happen is for the trade to not be in the form of unallocated SP.
While the supposed problem may have some merit, the proposed solution is the laziest, most ill-conceived mess I've come across in a very long time. It creates a vastly bigger problem than what it intends to solve using mechanisms and limitations that demonstrate a fundamental incomprehension of not just the game mechanics involved GÇö which is worrying from a dev GÇö but also of the behaviour of the players.
Quote:yes, again the fact that the max sp is no longer dicated by character age - however you've yet to cite a a reason why this is even remotely an issue. GǪaside from the issue cited from the very start: you are paying money to bypass game mechanics. If that's the kind of end goal they want to achieve, there is a far better way of doing that: remove the game mechanic completely. It has the same effect, with the added bonus that it's no longer determined by meta-game factors.
If you want to decouple max SP from age, which is a questionable goal to begin with, you can do it by replicating the bazaar in a more granular manner, and you will avoid almost all of the problems of creating a mechanical bypass. What this idea proposes is almost entirely unlike what the bazaar does, since it does not actually work with skills, but rather with something far more fundamental and far more closely tied to those core game mechanics.
Eternal Bob wrote:The limitations on SP accumulation speed will remain for characters whose SP are being harvested. Extra SP will not be generated out of thin air and thus nothing is being broken. GǪaside from the core mechanic that determines how quickly a single character can accumulate SP, since with this idea there is no limit other than how much money you choose to throw at it.
It doesn't matter whether or not it is GÇ£extraGÇ¥ SP; what matters is that training speed is now functionally infinite, but only for those why are willing to pay. Such mechanical bypasses are bad in and of themselves, since they render the underlying mechanic pointless; hiding them behind money changes them from merely bad to utterly horrendous.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
696
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:16:23 -
[1594] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:TO THOSE SUPPORTING THIS:
If you think SP-trading makes sense, why not take all the Aurum crap out of the equation and make everything super simple?
1. You can drain SP from any character, anytime; why should we need for rip-off 'extractors'???
2. The SP you drain becomes freely tradable in any way and on a unit basis, just like any other item (think ammo, for example)
3. You can freely apply this SP to any character, anytime; why should we need for rip-off 'applicators'???
4. SP drained-to-SP available ratio to be defined. Just as an example, say you get 1 freely usable SP for every 5 you drain. So draining 500,000 SP gives you 50,000 SP that you're free to trade, give away, sell, use yourself. I'm sure CCP and/or character bazaar experts can come up with a better ratio
5. The Jita price per SP will be freely set by the players. It's a sandbox! Or you can give them out for free or charge whatever you wish.
Not sure this is a good idea gameplay-wise, but isn't it definitely better than the proposed system?
If you think SP draining/trading/selling/injecting is a good idea, why the hell does CCP need to profit from this addition to the gameplay?
This pretty much sums up my point of view I guess. I'm more or less neutral to the SP-trading idea, but what I definitely don't like is the Aurum part, that just makes it needlessly shady.
O great, an extreme.
Or lets go the opposite!
Lets make it so you only get 1 skill point a day! Also, quadruple the training timers for everything!
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:17:55 -
[1595] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:You know how people are always arguing in that one thread that has like 200 pages about EVE DECLINE RAMPANT?
Where half the dudes are like, it's dying! and the other half are like, "no it's not you have no proof!"
Well uhhhhhhhhhh
this is kind of proof that the "eve is dying" guys are right, dontcha think?
So instead of making matters worse by adversely reacting to the change being adminstered by the people who's very lives rely upon the success of this game via threatening to quit and spewing vitriol, you throttle back a bit and let Jesus, I mean CCP take the wheel on this one?
Obviously game isn't doing so well, so a change is needed. EvE can't retain new players, proven by their willingness to make such a drastic change in an effort to entice new players into wanting to give this game another go and the means to reach a level where they can personally feel satisfied with their ability to perform/contribute in a meaningful manner that convinces them to stick around and become long term subscribers to the beauty this game offers via personal interaction with others flying ships in space.
It doesn't actually hurt any of you. You're just imagining that it will.
bla bla bla. Care to get back to that post and provide me some counter arguments FINALLY or you are just going to continue with gibberish, pathetic stories?
If their lives depend on the success of their game their decisions are leading them to the job market. So they should either improve themselves, their employees and their game they depend on or it will end. Only reason why we are posting here is because we do not want it to end and we are actually helping them to realize their mistakes. We are actually doing something they are paid for and we do it for free, because we love the game.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Niding
CRY.NET Nihilists Social Club
54
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:19:02 -
[1596] - Quote
Well, people have covered the basics earlier in this thread, so Ill just settle for;
"Bad idea is bad". |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4141
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:19:12 -
[1597] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Or lets go the opposite!
Lets make it so you only get 1 skill point a day! Also, quadruple the training timers for everything!
I wish there was a kid's section of the forums for you to play in
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dennie Fleetfoot
DUST University Ivy League
368
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:20:49 -
[1598] - Quote
Can't say I'm a fan of this at all.
And just saying as a member of the CPM for Dust 514, if the Shanghai office come up with something of the same ilk, the CPM as one would say no way.
CEO Dust University
www.twitter.com/DennieFleetfoot
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DivineHero
University of Caille Gallente Federation
314
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:21:23 -
[1599] - Quote
To all: Can i have your staff and SP?
-P-¦-¦-¦,-¦-¦-+-+ -¦-+-é -¦ -ç-æ-+.-P-¦-+-+ -+-+ -¦-¦-ü,-¦-ü-¦ -¦-ï -+-+-+,-+-+-¦-¦-é,-+-+-¦-é-+ -+-+ -¦-¦-ü -+-¦,-é-+-ç-+-+ -+-+-¦-¦-é,-ç-é-+ -é-â-é -+-Ç-+-+-ü-à-+-¦-+-é.
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:21:29 -
[1600] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Astroyka wrote:If the idea that this is for new players, it really isn't.
Looking at the bazaar now and doing the math, the skill packets will be about 250M to 350M ISK each. Your avg newbro will need to be cash rich and committed to playing eve to spend RL cash to advance his/her char.
I doubt there will be many newbro's doing that.
This is for committed players (vets?) who want a new clean char but don't want to create a new account/sub and do it the "hard" way.
Aside from the ISK/$ cost, losing a character's history bothers me. Probably more than it should, but I like the intel I get from seeing the age of a char and its employment history even if there are a lot of assumptions I make from that data.
they're going to be more than that. do the math. on a perfect remap with +5s, 7.7 days to get 500,000 SP. 7.7 days game time at current plex prices - 400m. (now add on whatever the extractor will cost). you're looking at 400m+ if chars on the bazzar are going for 250-350m/per 500,000 sp then new players are better off buying a new character than buying straight SP. even more so since people who train characters for sale are less likely to have wasted/redundant skills trained so they'll get more bang for their buck.
Hello! Majority of new players do not have needed isk so unless they are willing to spend cash this is void. And since not many will be ready to spend additional cash this will be fail with all the side effects kicking in.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4141
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:22:19 -
[1601] - Quote
DivineHero wrote:To all: Can i have your staff and SP? You can have some of my SP, but I like my staff. How about my wand instead?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Eternal Bob
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:22:40 -
[1602] - Quote
Tippia wrote:The point remains the same: this idea will let you bypass a core game mechanic simply by throwing cash at it
You just described the character bazaar.
Tippia wrote:GǪaside from the core mechanic that determines how quickly a single character can accumulate SP, since with this idea there is no limit other than how much money you choose to throw at it.
It doesn't matter whether or not it is GÇ£extraGÇ¥ SP; what matters is that training speed is now functionally infinite, but only for those why are willing to pay. Such mechanical bypasses are bad in and of themselves, since they render the underlying mechanic pointless; hiding them behind money changes them from merely bad to utterly horrendous.
The limit to which purchasers can accumulate SP is in part determined by the rate at which SP is generated by the sellers. There will be an initial splurge, and then over time the market will adjust due to availability. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1725
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:23:13 -
[1603] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote: It is funny that you actually think you or your newbro friends will somehow benefit from this at all.
While you are still celebrating about something you have no idea about how it will impact the game we already make plans how to gut that system if it actually hits the servers.
All the ingredients to this, SP and massive amounts of ISK, are in the hands of old players.
All you have to look forward too are massive PLEX prices and SP you are too pore to purchase. Sucks to be you.
So then you prove your intentions are set to serve no one but your own. Therefore any opinion you offer one way or the other is tainted by your impure personage relegating your opinion as nothing but manipulation for your sole benefit at the expense of others. Thanks for exposing the truth about yourself so we know not to listen to what you try to say. lol @ pore Yes, those are my intentions. I use the rules of the game to win no matter what the rules are. That's why we always win (ALWAYS).
I don't care if you ignore me, it does not change the fact that you will gain nothing out of this whole thing no matter if it is implemented or not. Cry more.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
81
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:23:22 -
[1604] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:This gives new players an actual reason, an actual object to strive for to further their progression.
They can subscribe, then go farm isk for the purpose of using it to buy skill points to level their characters faster.
Instead of subscribe and wait for a year, they can subscribe and play a ****-ton of EvE being out in the game actively playing, using their activity to acquire an actual benefit. Using the actual desirable reward of leveling their character as incentive to want to spend more time actively pursuing it.
Sure, just as it's possible to purchase a subscription with dollars, it's also possible to purchase a subscription with isk. This adds another benefit to the new player, something he wants.
No it does not. They will have to spend isk (which they dont have as they are new, so cash) to get in the game. How many people are going to do so. Your subscription is 15 bucks per month, but you should invest 50-100 bucks to get better start. If you think that is going to get people attracted or keep them in the game, you are wrong.
Exactly. Where now some newbros look at vets enviously and perhaps wish they could train a bit faster, now they will look at other newbros with lots or RL cash and wish they could buy skillpoints, if they don't have access to this they will likey say..."what's the f***ing point" and quit. There are better ways of bring newbros into the game more quickly (which CCP are doing with new char skillpoints, cerebral accelerators and could continue to do buy removing learning implants and adding those points to attributes permanently). Buying SPs will just setup another have/havenot divide amongst new players ... they won't all be able to afford it. Add to that a lot of the supply will get hoovered up by existing mega rich players and powerblocks anyway.
It is a huge huge mistake on par with, if not worse than summerof rage/monoclegate/$1000jeans |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
178
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:23:35 -
[1605] - Quote
The thing that makes the least sense is that the skill system is already designed in such a way that helps new players. Having copious amount of SP doesn't make you any better but simply allows more options in what you want to fly. That is the beauty of the skill system in eve.
Allowing players to buy SP for ISK will actually mainly help older players who want to recycle or sell SP, or train up alts quickly.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Dave Stark
7550
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:25:38 -
[1606] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:eve is over 10 years old. we're well past the point where time is a factor in preventing some one being perfect at anything. So what?
so nothing's being bypassed that hasn't already naturally been passed, and thus your entire point is irrelevant. bypassing this mechanic doesn't change anything.
you're bypassing a game mechanic you could already bypass by purchasing characters. the mechanic has been bypassed a long time ago. |
Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1302
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:26:39 -
[1607] - Quote
EVE Search wrote: Top 50 posters in thread Posts (% of total) Querns 128 (8,0%) Teckos Pech 60 (3,8%) Tyberius Franklin 51 (3,2%) Don ZOLA 40 (2,5%) Alavaria Fera 28 (1,8%) Divine Entervention 26 (1,6%)
Unique authors 650 (avg 2,4 posts/author)
I am mildly amused how much the "for" crowd is feeling the need to pad the thread out in order to make opinion seem split.
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
128
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:26:44 -
[1608] - Quote
That is a nice thing to throw in the table:
"They have to pay tech III servers somehow."
They could make some better fashion for ships and avatars.
They could bring up some sort of ingame corporation perks for a fee.
They could sell extra char slots.
They could make some other things non SP related for plex.
The list can grow a 100 pages long until we are left with only making players buy plex to make SP cows to milk.
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:EVE Search wrote: Top 50 posters in thread Posts (% of total) Querns 128 (8,0%) Teckos Pech 60 (3,8%) Tyberius Franklin 51 (3,2%) Don ZOLA 40 (2,5%) Alavaria Fera 28 (1,8%) Divine Entervention 26 (1,6%)
Unique authors 650 (avg 2,4 posts/author)
I am mildly amused how much the "for" crowd is feeling the need to pad the thread out in order to make opinion seem split.
That is the common place of all forum threads. I myself have most of them blocked already.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3015
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:27:34 -
[1609] - Quote
This idea seems to me to be more about CCP needing money (less folk logging on - see Eve-offline.net) than 'improving' the game.
They should just pass a tin-foil hat around and ask the players to donate some money as thay see fit.
Of course, CCP could just introduce and improve gameplay to both keep old players and attract new ones.
Sometimes, the obvious course is actually the best course of action.
This is not a signature.
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Schedar
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:29:24 -
[1610] - Quote
This touches the very core of EVE. I hope this will not come to pass, but seeing how Goons & Co. are actively promoting this, it most likely already is in the pipelines. I will vote with the wallet when time comes. |
|
Nakaara Adahsa
Hedion University Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:29:45 -
[1611] - Quote
This concept is clearly pay-to-win, and it's a horrible idea. The abuse would be terrible.
1. As some others have mentioned, it's easy to imagine someone running 5-10 accounts with 3 alts each dedicated to skill point farming. Some players would be willing to spend a large amount of real money for an in-game advantage, and others have massive ISK revenue streams from nullsec and wormhole space to spend on PLEX.
2. This could invite a whole new level of griefing: imagine an alliance like CODE hounding players or even smaller corps to give them skill points in exchange for freedom from harassment.
3. Preventing SP farming would be difficult. You could try banning players from transferring SPs between characters from their own accounts, but players would just work around this by transferring SPs between themselves in SP farming rings. Defeating the latter would be difficult as well: banning exchanges in private contracts would not work since players could just use closely timed exchanges in the open market in regions with low trade activity and/or with mutually inflated prices to prevent third-party interference with the exchange.
4. Making it so easy to acquire new skills is the equivalent of adding a mega-implant / meta-implant to characters. It's like adding an implant that affects all clones that cannot be lost and takes on whatever form you desire with the potential for several years worth of skill improvements. Such an implant would clearly imbalance gameplay too much and would be rejected by most players.
The potential for abuse and game imbalance is pretty much all one needs to know to see just how bad an idea this is for the game. Please devote CCP resources toward something else that might actually improve the game. |
Eternal Bob
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:30:06 -
[1612] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:EVE Search wrote: Top 50 posters in thread Posts (% of total) Querns 128 (8,0%) Teckos Pech 60 (3,8%) Tyberius Franklin 51 (3,2%) Don ZOLA 40 (2,5%) Alavaria Fera 28 (1,8%) Divine Entervention 26 (1,6%)
Unique authors 650 (avg 2,4 posts/author)
I am mildly amused how much the "for" crowd is feeling the need to pad the thread out in order to make opinion seem split.
What makes you think that is their motivation for posting?
This isn't the only place CCP go to for feedback, btw. Reactions elsewhere have been quite different. |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
128
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:34:48 -
[1613] - Quote
Schedar wrote:This touches the very core of EVE. I hope this will not come to pass, but seeing how Goons & Co. are actively promoting this, it most likely already is in the pipelines. I will vote with the wallet when time comes.
From a strictly selfish business point of view, I could see SP market as a booming market to profit from.
I understand that not only I could profit from joining that as a market, but profit by making that a tool for my trade.
It changes EVE into an entertainment source of investment internally profitable game-financially wise.
It is effective to boost all venues of profit from a person willing and prepared to invest real money into creating a powerhouse for financial or military superiority into the game.
As I am a person of estabilished IRL career in a field I am left with lots of free time, and not in the mood for night-life or drinking and such, just your regular gym rat, I could simply use and abuse SP market to oblivion.
If I did not care about who else will be left playing the game, I would very much enjoy this proposal, as it makes space for the Idiocracy of Money in EVE plain simple.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Troubled Basterd
Island Life Capitalist Bastards Chained Reactions
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:35:16 -
[1614] - Quote
Hi,
Wat is the prognoses on the plex price? I asume its going to sky rocked once more. I wile back CCP posted that something has to be done to plex prices, that there are to manny players leafing becaus of the high plex price.
Wy create even more reasons to buy plex for isk?
o/ |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6852
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:38:51 -
[1615] - Quote
Eternal Bob wrote:Aralyn Cormallen wrote:EVE Search wrote: Top 50 posters in thread Posts (% of total) Querns 128 (8,0%) Teckos Pech 60 (3,8%) Tyberius Franklin 51 (3,2%) Don ZOLA 40 (2,5%) Alavaria Fera 28 (1,8%) Divine Entervention 26 (1,6%)
Unique authors 650 (avg 2,4 posts/author)
I am mildly amused how much the "for" crowd is feeling the need to pad the thread out in order to make opinion seem split. What makes you think that is their motivation for posting? This isn't the only place CCP go to for feedback, btw. Reactions elsewhere have been quite different. There's no way I can catch up to Querns.
Unless I can get a Post Packet and inject someone else's posts into my count!
Also, Querns was aiming for 10%, but I guess they had to sleep or something, thus they slid to 8%...
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6852
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:40:41 -
[1616] - Quote
Nakaara Adahsa wrote:2. This could invite a whole new level of griefing: imagine an alliance like CODE hounding players or even smaller corps to give them skill points in exchange for freedom from harassment. Instead of just ISK, with which to buy stuff that's useful to them like... more catalysts?
Besides, all the sub 5mil people around because highsec is the home of newbies, they can't anyway right~
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
82
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:41:14 -
[1617] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:This idea seems to me to be more about CCP needing money (less folk logging on - see Eve-offline.net) than 'improving' the game.
They should just pass a tin-foil hat around and ask the players to donate some money as thay see fit.
Of course, CCP could just introduce and improve gameplay to both keep old players and attract new ones.
Sometimes, the obvious course is actually the best course of action.
It really does seem that monetization never really left the ideas table since summer of rage and they've been waiting for a way to shoehorn it back in. It may be a slippery slope argument, but I fear what they suggest next if they manage to get skillpoints for cash through the door.
If they really wanted to make they game more quickly accessible to new guys there are so many more things they could do.
Increase new char SPs even further (a million say) Remove learning implants, add points to attributes. Lower skill point requirements or adjust training time multipliers on various non "end game" skills (with appropriate reimbursements)
these would be accessible to all, not just cash rich players... but I suspect this is about CCP getting paid and getting paid quick.
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
128
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:43:27 -
[1618] - Quote
Troubled Basterd wrote:Hi,
Wat is the prognoses on the plex price? I asume its going to sky rocked once more. I wile back CCP posted that something has to be done to plex prices, that there are to manny players leafing becaus of the high plex price.
Wy create even more reasons to buy plex for isk?
o/
Preciselly to lower its price.
Supply and Demand is a very misunderstood concept in the market. That is not how markets are controlled.
If you really void the value, price goes down faster, no matter how supply changes, because need is actually what drives demand, not supply.
It is like sell beef in hindu countries. It does not matter how little is the supply, the price wont rise if people are already not interested in it to begin with.
The problem is right the opposite, it is to make need to boost demand, foreseeing a shortage of sales, or planning a boost on movement rather than price to rise profit.
Simple market manipulation done right.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1731
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:46:58 -
[1619] - Quote
Nakaara Adahsa wrote:2. This could invite a whole new level of griefing: imagine an alliance like CODE hounding players or even smaller corps to give them skill points in exchange for freedom from harassment. Let's not call it harassment. Otherwise, great idea!
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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roberts dragon
The Scope Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:47:16 -
[1620] - Quote
with all this passion think a few buckets of cold water is in order |
|
Dave Stark
7550
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:48:37 -
[1621] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:I fear what they suggest next if they manage to get skillpoints for cash through the door.
that's literally how your subscription works.
also; if we were just creating SP out of thin air - do you really think people would be defending it? i don't.
besides, this idea does the direct opposite, SP vanishes in to the void with this idea. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
84
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:49:12 -
[1622] - Quote
roberts dragon wrote:with all this passion think a few buckets of cold water is in order
With CCP so obviously high, a spell in rehab is in order
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
84
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:52:35 -
[1623] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:I fear what they suggest next if they manage to get skillpoints for cash through the door.
that's literally how your subscription works. also; if we were just creating SP out of thin air - do you really think people would be defending it? i don't. besides, this idea does the direct opposite, SP vanishes in to the void with this idea.
I have zero issues with making SPs easier to come by for new guys, but make it accessible to all not just cash rich older players and credit card happy new guys. All this will do (since supply will be limited and expensive) will setup another divide/barrier of entry between rich new guys and poor new guys where it just used to be young player vs old players. There are so many better ways of getting *all* new players into the game quicker... this isn't one of them.
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
129
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:52:54 -
[1624] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:roberts dragon wrote:with all this passion think a few buckets of cold water is in order With CCP so obviously high, a spell in rehab is in order
Imagine when players are high as a kite on bought SP.
It is like Cocaine to boost dopamine. LOL
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Clamp
Hedion University Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:55:10 -
[1625] - Quote
I wouldn't be interested in this - I'm not interested in the character bazaar either. My characters are a reflection of myself with their own narratives and history. I'm totally against renaming characters too, because those characters fair or foul are a part of the framework that make Eve special.
While I would appreciate a way to train a low SP character quicker with no risk, I wouldn't appreciate being able to do it in any old way. Pretty much every character needs core engineering skills for a good fit - it's more necessity than choice in my opinion. Everything else is a choice from tank or weapon choice to prop mod choice; those choices define who characters are and their strengths and weaknesses are the backbone of Eve online. So I'd be fine letting players pay to get assistance training core engineering skills, but nothing else.
Short term cynical crash grabs will only reap short term rewards in my opinion. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6852
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:57:34 -
[1626] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Portmanteau wrote:roberts dragon wrote:with all this passion think a few buckets of cold water is in order With CCP so obviously high, a spell in rehab is in order Imagine when players are high as a kite on bought SP. It is like Cocaine to boost dopamine. LOL And then they get alphapodded and lose it all, right?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
178
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:02:55 -
[1627] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:Portmanteau wrote:roberts dragon wrote:with all this passion think a few buckets of cold water is in order With CCP so obviously high, a spell in rehab is in order Imagine when players are high as a kite on bought SP. It is like Cocaine to boost dopamine. LOL And then they get alphapodded and lose it all, right? No because they removed consequences for death remember. And now they want to remove consequences for skill training too. Pick the wrong skill or remap, it won't matter, just liquidate the SP and use it however you want.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Dave Stark
7550
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:03:15 -
[1628] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:I fear what they suggest next if they manage to get skillpoints for cash through the door.
that's literally how your subscription works. also; if we were just creating SP out of thin air - do you really think people would be defending it? i don't. besides, this idea does the direct opposite, SP vanishes in to the void with this idea. I have zero issues with making SPs easier to come by for new guys, but make it accessible to all not just cash rich older players and credit card happy new guys. All this will do (since supply will be limited and expensive) is setup another divide/barrier of entry between rich new guys and poor new guys where it just used to be young player vs old players. There are so many better ways of getting *all* new players into the game quicker... this isn't one of them.
nobody said this was for new players anyway. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4144
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:05:11 -
[1629] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:I fear what they suggest next if they manage to get skillpoints for cash through the door.
that's literally how your subscription works. also; if we were just creating SP out of thin air - do you really think people would be defending it? i don't. besides, this idea does the direct opposite, SP vanishes in to the void with this idea. I have zero issues with making SPs easier to come by for new guys, but make it accessible to all not just cash rich older players and credit card happy new guys. All this will do (since supply will be limited and expensive) is setup another divide/barrier of entry between rich new guys and poor new guys where it just used to be young player vs old players. There are so many better ways of getting *all* new players into the game quicker... this isn't one of them. Indeed.
Though SP trading in itself is debatable, someone having to pay cash for it to happen just points straight to CCP greed.
Linking it to the Character Bazaar (and the PLEX costs therein) is just a smokescreen. Trading characters is an account service, completely out-of-game and charging PLEX is reasonable and a good way to limit the transactions.
But what's the reason to charge RL cash for a new gameplay mechanic, that's definitely not just cosmetic (like SKINs and clothes)?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6852
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:08:41 -
[1630] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:Portmanteau wrote:roberts dragon wrote:with all this passion think a few buckets of cold water is in order With CCP so obviously high, a spell in rehab is in order Imagine when players are high as a kite on bought SP. It is like Cocaine to boost dopamine. LOL And then they get alphapodded and lose it all, right? No because they removed consequences for death remember. And now they want to remove consequences for skill training too. Pick the wrong skill or remap, it won't matter, just liquidate the SP and use it however you want. Yeah, as the liquidation has a trivial cost.... what's the cost again, did they tell us yet?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
|
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1674
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:10:37 -
[1631] - Quote
why does it have to be greed? if the current playerbase complains about everything they do and they cant bring in new players then how else does a company make enough money to grow?
I dont see this as greed just simply a way to make money, after all it is a business and the current model clearly is not working enough for ccp
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6852
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:10:40 -
[1632] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Linking it to the Character Bazaar (and the PLEX costs therein) is just a smokescreen. Trading characters is an account service, completely out-of-game and charging PLEX is reasonable and a good way to limit the transactions. Ok, so if they removed the skill points from A and added unallocated skillounts to B completely-out-of game and charged PLEX instead of AUR, that would work...
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
180
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:16:14 -
[1633] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:And then they get alphapodded and lose it all, right? No because they removed consequences for death remember. And now they want to remove consequences for skill training too. Pick the wrong skill or remap, it won't matter, just liquidate the SP and use it however you want. Yeah, as the liquidation has a trivial cost.... what's the cost again, did they tell us yet? Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players. It is inevitable that this will be another feature that removes consequences, much like SP loss upon death, and indestructible ship skins.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26455
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:17:13 -
[1634] - Quote
Eternal Bob wrote:You just described the character bazaar. You just proved that you do not understand how the character bazaar works. No. The bazaar does not allow you to bypass core game mechanics. In fact, it currently requires those game mechanics to have been at work, or there would be nothing to buy.
The bazaar lets you trade a character GÇö a very specific set of skills tied to a very specific entity in the database. No matter how hard you try, that trade cannot change anything in or about your current character because all you're getting is a new character that someone has already built. The character you're buying is no different from the one you already have in terms of what mechanics have been at play in its construction.
With this idea, you can directly transfer unbound SP GÇö not even something as restrictive as skils GÇö that have been farmed by your alts or someone else's onto your pre-existing character and thus completely ignore the mechanisms that regulate how quickly that character can acquire new abilities. No matter what the originating character had, and no matter what your receiving character has, the recipient gets whatever new ability you wish.
Quote:The limit to which purchasers can accumulate SP is in part determined by the rate at which SP is generated by the sellers. There will be an initial splurge, and then over time the market will adjust due to availability. That's just it: there is no such limit with this scheme. You can manufacture all the SP you'd ever need and never be bothered or restricted by the market in any way whatsoever. The only determining factor is how much cash you're willing to spend on increasing your training speed.
This is why it's a bad thing: simply by paying cash, you can increase your training speed far beyond what is possible with the mechanics that determine training speed. Again, this is wholly unlike how the character bazaar works, and the second half of what makes it such a problematic design: the supposed limiting factor doesn't limit anything as long as you can be your own supplier.
If that is the intended goal GÇö that you should be able to increase your training speed at will GÇö why the nonsensical rigamarole of transfers? Why not just admit that it's a GÇ£pay to increase training speedGÇ¥ scheme and implement and balance it accordingly? If it's diminishing returns they're after, it's a trivial matter to make it inversely proportional to some logarithmic factor your your total SP. If it's not the intended goal, why on earth are they proposing exactly that (other than laziness in designing the idea)?
Yes, sure, more cash to CCP, yadda yaddaGǪ is that really worth creating such a stupid mechanic and then trying to hide it behind a use case that, by all accounts, is probably the least likely to occur?
Dave Stark wrote:so nothing's being bypassed that hasn't already naturally been passed GǪaside from the mechanic that determines how quickly a character can acquire skill points. This is a hard and fast mechanic that is currently impossible to bypass. I know you are smarter than this GÇö why are you so obstinate on not understanding the difference between what the bazaar does and what this proposal would offer?
There are no two ways about it: this idea lets you train skill many times faster than the mechanics for training skills allow. The character bazaar does not do this because it does not in any way alter what skills (much less how much SP) a character has. The reasons why the character bazaar does not bypass mechanics do not apply to this proposal because the two are nothing alike GÇö they trade completely different things between completely different parties.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Dave Stark
7550
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:18:01 -
[1635] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players.
except that nowhere in the devblog, does it state that.
not a single place. there is ONE instance of the phrase "new players" in the devblog, and it doesn't say it's for them. the reference to "new players" is that they've noticed us talking about it. not once have they said this is for new players in that devblog. not a single time. |
Alyssa Severasse
C.Q.B Snuffed Out
18
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:19:09 -
[1636] - Quote
Look at the macro economy in this. Eve has a pool of SP right now, and generates more SP every day (even factoring in T3 losses...). That SP is allocated across all the pilots with active accounts (unless you are dumb enough to jump clone and forget to restart your queue...). This process will diminish the overall SP pool as there will be:
a) SP lost into these packets and on the market b) SP lost from the diminishing return on mid-tier SP characters
Lower SP characters are less likely to strip out their SP for sale as they need it. New characters are highly unlikely to strip out their SP as they can't. So the only source of SP for these packets comes from mid-level and higher tier characters, or people dedicating slots to farming SP for sale.
Currently there are a lot of players created highly focused SP alts on spare slots for the character bazaar as an easy way to make ISK (just look at the price of mining alts, boosters and super pilots).
You need to understand that this will depend on the supply of SP packets. You can't just buy SP on the Eve store with Aurum! The only source of SP packets are going to be:
1. People farming SP for ISK (see alts above - the price will depend which is more effective and will naturally balance out) 2. People quitting the game or looking to sell characters (again higher SP characters may be more profitable to sell on the bazaar due to the skill book costs etc.) 3. People wanting to retrain or reallocate SP
The first two sources are the same as the current character bazaar - it's just you have more control over where the SP goes. The diminishing return means you can't create a 100mil SP alt as easily as you can buy one, in fact it's *way* more expensive and buying the toon still makes more sense isk-wise. Equally highly-focussed mid tier alts will still command higher prices due to the skill book prices and remaps. So the character bazaar still exists but becomes more specialised. This is a good thing. The last one means people pay to retrain. Or more than likely pay to swap SP between accounts, which I suspect will be a primary use of this function!
The initial reaction is 'omg, pay 2 win' but right now I can throw -ú10,000 into Eve, buy a 100mil SP alt and get an officer fit Revenant in a few days. This actually creates an atmosphere where you get to sculpt your character better, newer players get to hop into ships a bit quicker and have more fun (which means they enjoy the game more) and older players that have high SP alts they aren't using get to channel that SP into ISK if they want.
|
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1318
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:21:41 -
[1637] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:not a single place. there is ONE instance of the phrase "new players" in the devblog, and it doesn't say it's for them. the reference to "new players" is that they've noticed us talking about it. not once have they said this is for new players in that devblog. not a single time.
You stand corrected :
CCP Rise on behalf of Team Size Matters wrote:Recently, weGÇÖve seen new threads emerging where EVE players discuss options to help new players with progression.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
51
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:22:07 -
[1638] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players. except that nowhere in the devblog, does it state that. not a single place. there is ONE instance of the phrase "new players" in the devblog, and it doesn't say it's for them. the reference to "new players" is that they've noticed us talking about it. not once have they said this is for new players in that devblog. not a single time.
I have already replied you on that one, yet you keep repeating it. Beside those phrases it is quite obvious that it is mainly aimed at new players, other way it would not need diminishing return mechanics. If it is aimed at everyone make 1mil sp 1 plex for everyone and simple as that. So do not try to twist it out.
Also, the main point of all you "supporters" is that it will help new players. While it wont.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4148
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:22:17 -
[1639] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Linking it to the Character Bazaar (and the PLEX costs therein) is just a smokescreen. Trading characters is an account service, completely out-of-game and charging PLEX is reasonable and a good way to limit the transactions. Ok, so if they removed the skill points from A and added unallocated skillounts to B completely-out-of game and charged PLEX instead of AUR, that would work... Alternatively if they improved the bazaar by making it ingame, and added a system to carry out these trades more efficiently, it would not be fine to charge the plex anymore.... To clarify:
. Your account exists out-of-game, in the real world, where you pay CCP to log in and play their game
. Your character is ingame, in the virtual world. SP are viritual things attached to a virtual character in the virtual world of EVE
. SP mechanics, up to now, are ingame. Virtual world time goes by, you train SP based on ingame rules, choices and actions
Charging $ for real world transactions is different than charging cash each time you want to use a new ingame feature. It's like charging cash for adding a lowslot to your Rifter.
You may think the difference is minimal, I think it's crossing a line that will make the game worse. If this crap goes through, I'll be happy to be proved wrong.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dave Stark
7550
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:23:58 -
[1640] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:so nothing's being bypassed that hasn't already naturally been passed GǪaside from the mechanic that determines how quickly a character can acquire skill points. This is a hard and fast mechanic that is currently impossible to bypass. I know you are smarter than this GÇö why are you so obstinate on not understanding the difference between what the bazaar does and what this proposal would offer? There are no two ways about it: this idea lets you train skill many times faster than the mechanics for training skills allow. The character bazaar does not do this because it does not in any way alter what skills (much less how much SP) a character has. The reasons why the character bazaar does not bypass mechanics do not apply to this proposal because the two are nothing alike GÇö they trade completely different things between completely different parties.
because it means nothing - who gives a **** how many SP a character can have based on it's age? there's not a single thing in this game that you can't do perfectly because of a lack of SP. the game has been out that long many people have 1 character that's perfect at a myriad of things.
if it was currently impossible to be "perfect" at something then your argument might hold the tiniest it of water that would then be unleashed when you realise you cannot stop the passage of time.
the max sp a character can have based on its age is completely irrelevant and doesn't mean anything - nothing is being bypassed that hasn't already been bypassed. you're not magically able to do something now in game that was never possible before because you couldn't accumulate enough SP.
max sp as a function of age is irrelevant and pretending that having an "sp cap based on age" is why this idea is bad makes me laugh at you. i honestly expected an actual reason from you tippia. you've spent too much time on eve-o, you once came out with good points and valid concerns and now you're peddling a bucket full of holes as the best way to hold water. disappointing. |
|
Dave kazkade
Conquering Darkness
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:25:17 -
[1641] - Quote
First off I would like to say even though I do like the idea that ccp is trying to make the game allot easier for new players to get into, I am not for the idea that skill points can be something that can be bought or sold on the market. I don't have to say the reason, as everyone has stated allot of possibilities why this will cause more harm than good.
Now I will like to suggest a idea, instead of making sp tradeable, how about making character trading allot easier to know about, implement it as a game feature. Like a market place that can be opened in the game, rather than A forum section that people have to look for to find. Also, implement the ability for freshly traded characters to have the name changed, how ever limit this to were players cannot fake a name change that own the account or are abusing the name change system in a way to reuse a character for corp theft.
Also if you want to make the game more fun for new players, implement a way for them to test ships they cannot fly, like a arena or something interesting to show them how fun the game can be when they get good sp.
Another thing, make it to were all new players have access to the advanced cerebral accelerator, this is another item that even though can be traded for isk on the market, I find that the only way for new players to get there hands on it is to buy the (expansion packs) online, which I see it as a "if you pay us money we will make the game easier for you to get into" this is a no no. so please remove it. Also, remove remaps, and make all the stats maxed and keep the implants. Reduce the amount of time it takes to train skills.
And if you want to find a way to introduce more players onto eve? Work on project legion again, The only reason I see why you guys decided to stop working on it is because the dust 514 community was upset because (I don't have a gaming pc) or something stupid like that, supporting a game on a outdated console like the ps3 is a very dumb and stupid idea. Who cares what the dust community thinks, allot of them don't give you any money what so ever, and they just play the game, allot of them don't even know what eve is, but know how to log onto the forums. So. long story short, you want more players of eve? Port dust 514 to pc and add allot of features to it, like being able to manufacture goods for legion players, just something more to interact with the eve universe than rather (oh I push f1 now i get pew pew on planets im so cool, this is boring)
Now that I have given my suggest to CCP what i think should change I will like to now start giving my input to the players of this game. If you do what I am about to describe below, then shame on you, you are the reason this game is going to ****, and you should feel bad everytime you suggest a way to fix the game, you are not helping.
First off for the players that come onto threads like this and state "Im going to unsub now because this is a bad idea" This thread was made to give feedback to ccp to tell them how you feel about the changes, it doesn't mean that they will do it. So far from what I have seen, the CSM says no, and the community says no. So it will most likely will not happen. But when you start to say that eve is dieing and you threaten CCP with the fact that you are going to stop supplying them with money, you are a good reason why this game is going to ****, because if you don't get what you want, you will stop giving money to the people who try to make the game for interesting for new people.
And for those players who say "the game is dieing" or something related to that, you are not helping, when you put this information out there for everyone to see, how do you think a new player feels about seeing a 3+ year old pilot in a game saying its dieing, do you think they will invest the time and money into a game that since you all are saying "its dieing" they think that ccp will pull the plug one day? Yeah, you are not helping, everytime you state this, you make a new player think the game that you enjoy playing is a ******* waist of time and **** you for even saying osmething remotely close to this.
I love this game as much as you guys do. Probably even more. But when you say the game is dieing you make new players think it is a waist of time, that they shouldn't even train skills in it.
When ccp comes along and ask the community about a idea they had, they are asking you guys if it is okay to implement it. So far you guys have made great responses to CCP, but actually unsubscribing is not the way to change ccp's mind, you are killing the game by doing this.
I put allot of thought into this, and I have waisted a long time writing this.
tl;dr:
SP trading is no no, make other ways for new players to enjoy the game without real money
Remove remaps and make it to were all skills train at same pace, with the option of implants still
Resume development on project legion, there are allot of FPS players on PC, and tons of them will love the idea, dust 514 community is salty, and ps3 is a outdated piece of ****. stop supporting it.
Rant about how players should stop saying that "eve is a dieing game" as this causes more players to not even want to spend time in it because they think it will die because all these old players are saying so.
|
Naxirian
Target Acquired
29
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:25:22 -
[1642] - Quote
First thing I said when I saw this was "lol, that's it, EVE's dead."
I am 100% against this idea. A core part of EVE is that you're rewarded for putting in time and effort. This is essentially a way to pay RL money via plex, or spend vast amounts of isk to instantly create skilled up toons. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's pay to win because you still need knowledge and skills, and you can essentially use RL money to buy characters on the bazaar by buying plex to sell anyway, but it's a terrible feature imo and should not be added to the game.
If you're wanting to make more money from transactions, add the ability to pay an RL fee to change our character names. How hard can it be to include a little section in the character info window that lists previous names of the toon? That would be a much more welcome feature for a lot of people. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
51
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:25:54 -
[1643] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:why does it have to be greed? if the current playerbase complains about everything they do and they cant bring in new players then how else does a company make enough money to grow?
I dont see this as greed just simply a way to make money, after all it is a business and the current model clearly is not working enough for ccp
Then they should think of something which will bring new players to the game. Since this will not.
And if they just want more money they should find a way to get them or to find something actually beneficial for all players. Or reorganize company, cut unnecessary costs, stop stupid investments etc. Players are not guilty for such faults.
Instead of making moves which will cause even less income in the long run. Ie the business model which worked, they screwed up some and now they are going to screw it even more. That is the wrong way to make more money.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Dave Stark
7550
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:26:21 -
[1644] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players. except that nowhere in the devblog, does it state that. not a single place. there is ONE instance of the phrase "new players" in the devblog, and it doesn't say it's for them. the reference to "new players" is that they've noticed us talking about it. not once have they said this is for new players in that devblog. not a single time. I have already replied you on that one, yet you keep repeating it. Beside those phrases it is quite obvious that it is mainly aimed at new players, other way it would not need diminishing return mechanics. If it is aimed at everyone make 1mil sp 1 plex for everyone and simple as that. So do not try to twist it out. Also, the main point of all you "supporters" is that it will help new players. While it wont.
those phrases don't mention it being for new players at all. "Recently, weGÇÖve seen new threads emerging where EVE players discuss options to help new players with progression. " does not mean "this idea is for newbros".
people who say "this is for new players" need to pipe down - not once has this been stated anywhere but the recesses of your minds. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4150
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:26:25 -
[1645] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:I dont see this as greed just simply a way to make money, after all it is a business and the current model clearly is not working enough for ccp I'm not CCP's CEO or shareholder, I'm a player.
I don't care how much money CCP make, I wish them to make a good game and enough money to remain in business so I can play it with you guys.
If I think a proposed feature is just for making more money but could make the game worse, I'll say so and hope they come up with another feature that makes the game better instead, which ultimately will help in making more money too.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
130
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:27:27 -
[1646] - Quote
It is funny how the same person justify their arguments by saying something is not clearly stated in the dev post and at the same time uses the reason do prove that something that is not clearly stated in the dev post aswell.
All the hundred long thread it is came to be because the problem is what is not considered or written down in the dev post.
It is like to ask someone to disprove Eisntein following relativity theory.
It is amazing how there is always someone to come and pull that off thinking it is a clever move.
And in other news:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Lan Wang wrote:I dont see this as greed just simply a way to make money, after all it is a business and the current model clearly is not working enough for ccp I'm not CCP's CEO or shareholder, I'm a player. I don't care how much money CCP make, I wish them to make a good game and enough money to remain in business so I can play it with you guys. If I think a proposed feature is just for making more money but could make the game worse, I'll say so and hope they come up with another feature that makes the game better instead, which ultimately will help in making more money too.
problem is CCP is a corporation. IF they dont make money enough to support the game, plus the employees, plus CSM, plus EVE vegas, plus silly youtube shows, plus custom cakes and lunch, plus personalized whiskey bottles, they might aswell call it done and move on.
The game wont be if it is only self sustainable but non-profit.
In short, say you want a good game and dont care how much money CCP makes on top of that is at least in being nice, naive.
It is a business, and the only way to have it better, is to give it surplus incentives. If the game profits are X, you have a Y quality game, the odds of having 10Y quality game improve a lot when you have 10X profit.
But it also has a cap. a 100X profit wont get you 100Y quality, because too much incentive causes lazyness.
That must soon be called "pull a blizzard" I fear.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
51
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:29:36 -
[1647] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players. except that nowhere in the devblog, does it state that. not a single place. there is ONE instance of the phrase "new players" in the devblog, and it doesn't say it's for them. the reference to "new players" is that they've noticed us talking about it. not once have they said this is for new players in that devblog. not a single time. I have already replied you on that one, yet you keep repeating it. Beside those phrases it is quite obvious that it is mainly aimed at new players, other way it would not need diminishing return mechanics. If it is aimed at everyone make 1mil sp 1 plex for everyone and simple as that. So do not try to twist it out. Also, the main point of all you "supporters" is that it will help new players. While it wont. those phrases don't mention it being for new players at all. "Recently, weGÇÖve seen new threads emerging where EVE players discuss options to help new players with progression. " does not mean "this idea is for newbros". people who say "this is for new players" need to pipe down - not once has this been stated anywhere but the recesses of your minds.
Can you please answer on whole posts instead just taking some parts out of the context. Why is there diminishing return mechanism, aimed to give the most of the benefit to the new players (who are ready to spend additional cash) then?
So, YES it is aimed mainly at new players. And it fails on that.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26458
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:30:08 -
[1648] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:because it means nothing - who gives a **** how many SP a character can have based on it's age? I don't.
I care that you are able to pay to bypass a core game mechanic.
To specify further: I don't care how hideously costly it is (I won't say GÇ£restrictivelyGÇ¥ because we all know that's not how these things work). I don't care how much of a faff it is to do. In fact, I don't even care about how common or uncommon an occurrence it turns out to be. I care about the utter lunacy of letting mechanical applicability be a matter of wallet size.
You are barking up the wrong tree if you think that age is in any way relevant to my complaint. In fact, my proposed solution would largely remove that correlation as well. Instead, I want you to go back and read what I've actually said with fresh eyes and try to understand what the actual issue is, because it has nothing to do with what you're on about.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Dave Stark
7550
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:31:04 -
[1649] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players. except that nowhere in the devblog, does it state that. not a single place. there is ONE instance of the phrase "new players" in the devblog, and it doesn't say it's for them. the reference to "new players" is that they've noticed us talking about it. not once have they said this is for new players in that devblog. not a single time. I have already replied you on that one, yet you keep repeating it. Beside those phrases it is quite obvious that it is mainly aimed at new players, other way it would not need diminishing return mechanics. If it is aimed at everyone make 1mil sp 1 plex for everyone and simple as that. So do not try to twist it out. Also, the main point of all you "supporters" is that it will help new players. While it wont. those phrases don't mention it being for new players at all. "Recently, weGÇÖve seen new threads emerging where EVE players discuss options to help new players with progression. " does not mean "this idea is for newbros". people who say "this is for new players" need to pipe down - not once has this been stated anywhere but the recesses of your minds. Can you please answer on whole posts instead just taking some parts out of the context. Why is there diminishing return mechanism, aimed to give the most of the benefit to the new players (who are ready to spend additional cash) then? So, YES it is aimed mainly at new players. And it fails on that.
why the diminishing returns? "As you can see, this design favors skill transfers for younger characters and makes them very inefficient for older characters. WeGÇÖve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character."
had you read the devblog, you might actually be able to add something meaningful to the discussion. |
Edward Olmops
DUST Expeditionary Team Good Sax
314
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:31:51 -
[1650] - Quote
The idea presented by CCP Rise in the Dev Blog has two merits:
1) the existing Character Bazaar could really get some love. Character transfers have always been a part of the game and no one complained about negative impact. I know enough experienced players who used this to acquire a specialized toon they would not have been able to train in many months. CHARACTER BAZAAR PROVIDES ****** UI EXPERIENCE.
2) new players might be frustrated because the skill point gap to veterans is high. But thats often not even the point. You do not start the game and expect to be elite from the start. What counts more: If they instantly join a corporation as they are often told, the corporation struggles to effectively make use of the eager pilots. Even the most basic programs for getting them into a tackler or combat frigate role that can effectively be used in a typical small/mid-size corp op takes weeks and months. THE CURRENT SKILL PROGRESSION FOR NEW PLAYERS HINDERS BECOMING VALUABLE FOR CORPORATIONS QUICKLY.
Nevertheless, I think that the conclusion " lets kill two bugs with one feature" and make SP extractable is a bad idea.
This will have side effects.
1) SP FARMS: Zombie SP farming characters will make the proposal equivalent to selling SP for Aurum/PLEX PLUS create a mess of unnecessary bad complexity. If you really want this, just sell SP for Aurum. Or buy back old characters.
2) RESPECCING :Also, any character will be able to completely respec all skills by extracting anything that is not core skills and eating the extracted packages himself.
3) TOON RECYCLING: there are reasons why we are not allowed to recycle/create tons of trial toons. People are likely to abuse this to create throwaway alts as spies, traitors or bad guys. Now we would be able to do this with high SP chars as well? For a small fee of 20% we would be able to transfer all SP of a spy to a completely fresh face with completely different skills. Ok, this opens up new gameplay options, but it has a HUGE abuse potential. Consequences for actions? 20% in the worst case...
4) NO SP SINK: diminishing returns are somewhat promising to limit this feature. But zombie SP farms will establish a stable price for SP - there will be no real SP sink.
5) SKIPPING GAMEPLAY: players might feel incentivized to skip low power gameplay and then get bored if they can buy limitless SP. They whole process of skilling, discussing skills, focussing on a role provided a lot of fun to me during the first years of EVE whereas now I can practically do anything and only wait for expansions to create new content.
6) REVENUES: this might increase CCPs revenues in the short run. It is always a good idea to have our devs content and fed, but the real thing should be the impact on long term game population. Not sure here.
Conclusion: I think a new UI for the bazaar is a good idea, best incorporated in the client.
For our new players, unallocated SP would be a huge boon. But being b00ns, they will certainly gimp the opportunity. Power without control. :-/
How about either some higher class opportunity that provides a one-time SP bonus (drawback: similar mandatory as old tutorials) coming a bit later in the game or better : more Cerebral Accelerators. They already give SP for money. They cant be easily abused. They can be designed for different skill levels, they dont skip learning, only accelerate it ( no drunken buying of nonsense skills you already hate after first use).
Sell them for Aurum or add them to some loot tables....
|
|
Dave Stark
7550
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:32:51 -
[1651] - Quote
Tippia wrote:I care that you are able to pay to bypass a core game mechanic.
which is what the character bazzar has been doing for people since whenever it was introduced.
i'm glad you're fine with all of this, then. |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
1027
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:32:59 -
[1652] - Quote
TLDR for the 83 pages:
CCP is dumb
Not today spaghetti.
|
darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
45
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:34:30 -
[1653] - Quote
can we have a dislike button for forum posts please? |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
51
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:37:19 -
[1654] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
except that nowhere in the devblog, does it state that.
not a single place. there is ONE instance of the phrase "new players" in the devblog, and it doesn't say it's for them. the reference to "new players" is that they've noticed us talking about it. not once have they said this is for new players in that devblog. not a single time.
I have already replied you on that one, yet you keep repeating it. Beside those phrases it is quite obvious that it is mainly aimed at new players, other way it would not need diminishing return mechanics. If it is aimed at everyone make 1mil sp 1 plex for everyone and simple as that. So do not try to twist it out. Also, the main point of all you "supporters" is that it will help new players. While it wont. those phrases don't mention it being for new players at all. "Recently, weGÇÖve seen new threads emerging where EVE players discuss options to help new players with progression. " does not mean "this idea is for newbros". people who say "this is for new players" need to pipe down - not once has this been stated anywhere but the recesses of your minds. Can you please answer on whole posts instead just taking some parts out of the context. Why is there diminishing return mechanism, aimed to give the most of the benefit to the new players (who are ready to spend additional cash) then? So, YES it is aimed mainly at new players. And it fails on that. why the diminishing returns? "As you can see, this design favors skill transfers for younger characters and makes them very inefficient for older characters. WeGÇÖve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character." had you read the devblog, you might actually be able to add something meaningful to the discussion.
So you just quoted the part where it says it favors new players and challenged me for stating the same with additional comment that it will not work. Thank you for making your own previous posts looking dump and finally taking away chances that anyone can give some seriousness to your posts. And of course thank you for such great meaningful contribution.
ROFL.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Serina Ieri
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:37:35 -
[1655] - Quote
As a multiyear subscriber PLEASE NO. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26463
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:38:06 -
[1656] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:which is what the character bazzar has been doing for people since whenever it was introduced. GǪexcept that no game mechanics are being bypassed by the bazaar.
Again, I know you are smarter than this, so just stop playing stupid.
WellGǪ unless you've used the character bazaar recently and Dave now has a new owner, in which case, LMAO at not understanding the service you just used.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1305
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:38:22 -
[1657] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Yeah, as the liquidation has a trivial cost.... what's the cost again, did they tell us yet?
Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players. You are familiar with CCP's microtransaction price policy right? My bet is on it being 1/2 - full PLEX per widget just to create the packet, and I reckon I'm underpricing. Trivial price... yeah |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
530
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:38:43 -
[1658] - Quote
Lol, 83 pages already.
Anyway,
It's dead Jim.
7o
CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25340
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:38:49 -
[1659] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:It is like to ask someone to disprove Eisntein following relativity theory The veracity of Einstein's theory of relativity is open to debate, at least at the quantum level. As with any scientific theory it is subject to revision as new phenomena are observed.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
130
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:39:10 -
[1660] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tippia wrote:I care that you are able to pay to bypass a core game mechanic. which is what the character bazzar has been doing for people since whenever it was introduced. i'm glad you're fine with all of this, then.
Same logic as plex. With the bazaar, at least someone HAD to endure the training, all the way. HAD to think about it, elaborate it.
With skill sculpting, you not only able to put someone else's skill points freely and such, but you can also model your own char by "liposculpting" your skill pool.
In the bazaar you cannot circumvent the time by agregating skill points from multiple chars in one.
By means of skills modeling, you actually can put several chars to train in order to make a triple, ten fold, hundred fold, skill queue which then you just pull up to one single char.
That is impossible using the bazaar.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
|
Dojen Kobunra
Yakuro Dojo Group
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:41:27 -
[1661] - Quote
EYS YES ADADA ....
let the "sansha" lords" sell their drones to rookies... aewsome
who knows
one is sure mining bot fleets are boring and code is dumb
so why not try "cloning industry"
just do not give it some odd names like
bazaar or harem ";P
why not name it "THE MATRIX BAY"
good luck CCP)
Creating artificial intelligence and drafting spacetime maps is not a game, its a job for the whole humanity.
|
Dave Stark
7550
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:42:23 -
[1662] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:So you just quoted the part where it says it favors new players and challenged me for stating the same with additional comment that it will not work. Thank you for making your own previous posts looking dump and finally taking away chances that anyone can give some seriousness to your posts. And of course thank you for such great meaningful contribution.
ROFL.
actually i quoted the reason why there's diminishing returns - and it quite clearly states it isn't for new players it's to protect the prestige of having an older character.
if you want to make random connections that's cool - but the fact remains that nowhere in the devblog does ccp state this is for new players.
you can say it was intended for new players all you want - however there's not a single statement that supports that assertion. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6852
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:42:32 -
[1663] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Yeah, as the liquidation has a trivial cost.... what's the cost again, did they tell us yet?
Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players. You are familiar with CCP's microtransaction price policy right? My bet is on it being 1/2 - full PLEX per widget just to create the packet, and I reckon I'm underpricing. Trivial price... yeah Well putting it as AUR does allow them to ... ah what is it...
"tweak knobs" as it were... but then again doing that might be too painful, increasing or decreasing the cost huh?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4152
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:43:46 -
[1664] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:I dont see this as greed just simply a way to make money, after all it is a business and the current model clearly is not working enough for ccp I'll add this.
The idea that businesses basically just have to make as much money as possible is fundamentally wrong.
Businesses are made of people; the ones having more influence on the business' goals are the owners and managers.
People can have all sorts of motivations, making money is just one of them.
On one side of the spectrum, you have companies just wanting to make money, to the point of fraud or illegality even.
On the other side, you have idealists that just want to make a perfect product or service and sometimes end up bankrupt.
Every company has its own culture and priorities, and they change over time.
CCP proposing this new Aurum-related feature just looks like a step closer to the 'greedy' side of the spectrum and farther away from a 'make an awesome game' side...
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6852
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:44:08 -
[1665] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:So you just quoted the part where it says it favors new players and challenged me for stating the same with additional comment that it will not work. Thank you for making your own previous posts looking dump and finally taking away chances that anyone can give some seriousness to your posts. And of course thank you for such great meaningful contribution.
ROFL. actually i quoted the reason why there's diminishing returns - and it quite clearly states it isn't for new players it's to protect the prestige of having an older character. if you want to make random connections that's cool - but the fact remains that nowhere in the devblog does ccp state this is for new players. you can say it was intended for new players all you want - however there's not a single statement that supports that assertion. Making up your own connections to satisfy yourself and prop up a bad position are all part of the intimate experience that is eveo.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Dave Stark
7550
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:44:11 -
[1666] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:which is what the character bazzar has been doing for people since whenever it was introduced. GǪexcept that no game mechanics are being bypassed by the bazaar. Again, I know you are smarter than this, so just stop playing stupid. WellGǪ unless you've used the character bazaar recently and Dave now has a new owner, in which case, LMAO at not understanding the service you just used.
a new player who starts playing today can't get past a few thousand SP. the character bazzar bypasses that limit.
so yes, it does.
you're whining that the rate of sp gain can't be changed - which is true however you can totally disregard it by buying a character. so the mechanic is already being bypassed. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26469
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:47:54 -
[1667] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:a new player who starts playing today can't get past a few thousand SP. the character bazzar bypasses that limit. No it does not. The new player's characters are restricted by the same mechanics as everyone else's. You are confusing character and player.
Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12670
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:49:00 -
[1668] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tippia wrote:I care that you are able to pay to bypass a core game mechanic. which is what the character bazzar has been doing for people since whenever it was introduced. i'm glad you're fine with all of this, then. Same logic as plex. With the bazaar, at least someone HAD to endure the training, all the way. HAD to think about it, elaborate it. With skill sculpting, you not only able to put someone else's skill points freely and such, but you can also model your own char by "liposculpting" your skill pool. In the bazaar you cannot circumvent the time by agregating skill points from multiple chars in one. By means of skills modeling, you actually can put several chars to train in order to make a triple, ten fold, hundred fold, skill queue which then you just pull up to one single char. That is impossible using the bazaar.
+1
Why this is so hard for some to understand is beyond me. PLEX and the character bazaar are one thing, but the "skill sculpting" is another entirely.
CCP should take this thread as a warning of the reaction to come if they go ahead with this, not everyone reads forums/reddit/whatever.
|
Banirtal Cadelanne
Cadelanne Mining Corporation Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:49:27 -
[1669] - Quote
Love the idea! Go for it CCP!! |
Eternal Bob
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:50:01 -
[1670] - Quote
Tippia wrote:You just proved that you do not understand how the character bazaar works. No. The bazaar does not allow you to bypass core game mechanics.
It allows the buyer to bypass the time spent accumulating SP, which is what the proposed idea also does.
Tippia wrote:In fact, it currently requires those game mechanics to have been at work
As does the proposed idea.
Tippia wrote:There are no two ways about it: this idea lets you train skill many times faster than the mechanics for training skills allow
But it doesn't allow sellers to train skills faster than mechanics allow. The sum total of skills distributed amongst player characters will not change. There will be no magical SP generation. All that will happen is that players will be able to trade their time and ISK in a more mutually beneficial way. |
|
Alladir
Alladarium
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:50:37 -
[1671] - Quote
Basically argument of most haters in this thread :
So I've been playing EVE since before space even existed, well before China started farming WoW gold in the 1800s. It's always touched me in places I never expected. I often sit and think how much headway I could make in life if it wasn't for internet spaceships, but the ship spinning alone brings joy and meaning to my life. But then this new thing was introduced to the game. This new thing will completely break and ruin the game! In the past, I did the old thing in the old way, and that was fine. I did it, I was fine, and nothing went wrong. But now there's this new thing... why?!
There are many reasons why this new thing will break the game.
- The equipment we farmed will have different value now.
- The work we did will be easier or harder for subsequent people to do.
- It is different.
- It is not the same as it was before.
- The way it was before is how I want it to remain.
- It is new.
- I don't like it.
These are just the things that come to mind after barely glancing through the first paragraph of the devpost. But, enough of that. CCPlease, can we please stop this new thing before it's too late? I can tell you all about why the new thing is bad. I did the old thing day in, day out, and I was better at it than all of you. I had Mastery VI of the old thing. If you think my being too used to the old thing is why I dislike the new thing, you are sadly mistaken! For I have like Mastery VIIXIV of the new thing, too. Even though it's new, I'm still better at it than all of you, even the people who are better at it than I am, and I've been better at it since before I was born. But, still, the old thing was better, and this new thing is bad, and wrong, and badly wrong.
Devs, CSMs, ISBs, IPAs, please hear my pleas. This new thing will change the game from how it was before, and this cannot be allowed to happen. Stop, now. I know you'll listen to me, because you always listen to meGÇöand only meGÇöbecause we've known each other all our lives, even when we didn't know it. We used to do the thing (not the new thing, the old one) by the place, and you once told me, "Nez, your three semesters of Game Development at the community college give you more knowledge and experience than all of us together, and we'll let you veto any changes you don't like." Well, that didn't happen. You went behind my back, and you did it to my face. Anyway. I'm not bitter, though I will unsubscribe my eleventy accounts at the drop of a hat if this thing isn't changed. I just want to be clear: I am basically the unofficial CSM chair with my dank skills, this new thing is bad, and the old thing is the only way that anything should ever be done.
(not mine, just sharing)
While i appreciate ppl who actually argument their point why is it bad, it would be nice for more ppl to do the same instead of "QQ Eve is dead, Unsubbing" |
Joffy Aulx-Gao
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
42
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:50:48 -
[1672] - Quote
I'm not a fan of this change.
1. This will be abused in large alliances where they just plex lots of farming alts and give their members all skills to new doctrines, this will mean big alliances will get even more dominant.
2. This will most likely make PLEX prices even higher and we certainly don't need that, we need more ppl not less with more alts!
If CCP needs to get more Money then they need a bigger sale on PLEX to get Price to drop to below 1b Again, many has a hard time to keep playing without grinding for ISK, EVE Online is still a game not a job. |
Dave Stark
7550
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:50:54 -
[1673] - Quote
Tippia wrote:You are confusing character and player.
Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this.
i'm not confusing it. it's simply irrelevant.
funfact; this new service doesn't do that either. tippia will still be training at 2600 sp/hour, you'll just have a higher SP total. the new service directly injects sp, it doesn't speed up training. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6852
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:51:02 -
[1674] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:a new player who starts playing today can't get past a few thousand SP. the character bazzar bypasses that limit. No it does not. The new player's characters are restricted by the same mechanics as everyone else's. You are confusing character and player. Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this. It's always funny to see people who've sold the character their forum/jabber account was named after.
They should've been more attached.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
51
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:51:15 -
[1675] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:So you just quoted the part where it says it favors new players and challenged me for stating the same with additional comment that it will not work. Thank you for making your own previous posts looking dump and finally taking away chances that anyone can give some seriousness to your posts. And of course thank you for such great meaningful contribution.
ROFL. actually i quoted the reason why there's diminishing returns - and it quite clearly states it isn't for new players it's to protect the prestige of having an older character. if you want to make random connections that's cool - but the fact remains that nowhere in the devblog does ccp state this is for new players. you can say it was intended for new players all you want - however there's not a single statement that supports that assertion.
Let me bold that once more for you. Beside the obvious mechanism which does it.
favors new players
or you need more?
favors new players favors new players favors new players
Please, either stop trolling or start to add some real contribution to the discussion. kktnxbye
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Crashys
Zonk Squad CCLP
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:51:31 -
[1676] - Quote
Banirtal Cadelanne wrote:Love the idea! Go for it CCP!!
Why only the CCP sponsored goonies love the idea of spending ISK given by CCP on their 'more than proven' aid to help Papa Mittani be something in the game?? Is it because CCP gave you (and continue to give) a perfect game mechanics adjusted to your needs??
LOL
I see EVE as 'Goonies Enterprise' only.
I wish i was being paid like Mittani is by CCP... :( |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6852
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:52:35 -
[1677] - Quote
Alladir wrote:There are many reasons why this new thing will break the game.
- The equipment we farmed will have different value now.
- The work we did will be easier or harder for subsequent people to do.
- It is different.
- It is not the same as it was before.
- The way it was before is how I want it to remain.
- It is new.
- I don't like it.
This is amazing.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Dave Stark
7550
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:52:38 -
[1678] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:So you just quoted the part where it says it favors new players and challenged me for stating the same with additional comment that it will not work. Thank you for making your own previous posts looking dump and finally taking away chances that anyone can give some seriousness to your posts. And of course thank you for such great meaningful contribution.
ROFL. actually i quoted the reason why there's diminishing returns - and it quite clearly states it isn't for new players it's to protect the prestige of having an older character. if you want to make random connections that's cool - but the fact remains that nowhere in the devblog does ccp state this is for new players. you can say it was intended for new players all you want - however there's not a single statement that supports that assertion. Let me bold that once more for you. Beside the obvious mechanism which does it. favors new playersor you need more? favors new playersfavors new playersfavors new playersPlease, either stop trolling or start to add some real contribution to the discussion. kktnxbye
favours =/= is designed for.
learn english, kkthnxbye
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
181
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:53:07 -
[1679] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:which is what the character bazzar has been doing for people since whenever it was introduced. GǪexcept that no game mechanics are being bypassed by the bazaar. Again, I know you are smarter than this, so just stop playing stupid. I don't know, perhaps he really is as stupid as he is displaying himself to be in this thread.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1305
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:53:41 -
[1680] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Aralyn Cormallen wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Yeah, as the liquidation has a trivial cost.... what's the cost again, did they tell us yet?
Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players. You are familiar with CCP's microtransaction price policy right? My bet is on it being 1/2 - full PLEX per widget just to create the packet, and I reckon I'm underpricing. Trivial price... yeah Well putting it as AUR does allow them to ... ah what is it... "tweak knobs" as it were... but then again doing that might be too painful, increasing or decreasing the cost huh? You are also familiar with CCP's stellar history in swift and agile knob twisting right? It only took 11 months til the first sqeaky turn of the jump fatigue knob after all. Light-speed :whoosh:
|
|
Dave Stark
7550
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:53:42 -
[1681] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Alladir wrote:There are many reasons why this new thing will break the game.
- The equipment we farmed will have different value now.
- The work we did will be easier or harder for subsequent people to do.
- It is different.
- It is not the same as it was before.
- The way it was before is how I want it to remain.
- It is new.
- I don't like it.
This is amazing.
copy and paste from reddit usually is, which was also copy and pasted from somewhere else. |
Dave Stark
7550
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:54:34 -
[1682] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:which is what the character bazzar has been doing for people since whenever it was introduced. GǪexcept that no game mechanics are being bypassed by the bazaar. Again, I know you are smarter than this, so just stop playing stupid. I don't know, perhaps he really is as stupid as he is displaying himself to be in this thread.
i'm not the one claiming this new service increases sp/hour. the devblog clearly states it injects unallocated sp. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:55:18 -
[1683] - Quote
Alladir wrote:Basically argument of most haters in this thread : So I've been playing EVE since before space even existed, well before China started farming WoW gold in the 1800s. It's always touched me in places I never expected. I often sit and think how much headway I could make in life if it wasn't for internet spaceships, but the ship spinning alone brings joy and meaning to my life. But then this new thing was introduced to the game. This new thing will completely break and ruin the game! In the past, I did the old thing in the old way, and that was fine. I did it, I was fine, and nothing went wrong. But now there's this new thing... why?! There are many reasons why this new thing will break the game.
- The equipment we farmed will have different value now.
- The work we did will be easier or harder for subsequent people to do.
- It is different.
- It is not the same as it was before.
- The way it was before is how I want it to remain.
- It is new.
- I don't like it.
These are just the things that come to mind after barely glancing through the first paragraph of the devpost. But, enough of that. CCPlease, can we please stop this new thing before it's too late? I can tell you all about why the new thing is bad. I did the old thing day in, day out, and I was better at it than all of you. I had Mastery VI of the old thing. If you think my being too used to the old thing is why I dislike the new thing, you are sadly mistaken! For I have like Mastery VIIXIV of the new thing, too. Even though it's new, I'm still better at it than all of you, even the people who are better at it than I am, and I've been better at it since before I was born. But, still, the old thing was better, and this new thing is bad, and wrong, and badly wrong. Devs, CSMs, ISBs, IPAs, please hear my pleas. This new thing will change the game from how it was before, and this cannot be allowed to happen. Stop, now. I know you'll listen to me, because you always listen to meGÇöand only meGÇöbecause we've known each other all our lives, even when we didn't know it. We used to do the thing (not the new thing, the old one) by the place, and you once told me, "Nez, your three semesters of Game Development at the community college give you more knowledge and experience than all of us together, and we'll let you veto any changes you don't like." Well, that didn't happen. You went behind my back, and you did it to my face. Anyway. I'm not bitter, though I will unsubscribe my eleventy accounts at the drop of a hat if this thing isn't changed. I just want to be clear: I am basically the unofficial CSM chair with my dank skills, this new thing is bad, and the old thing is the only way that anything should ever be done. (not mine, just sharing)While i appreciate ppl who actually argument their point why is it bad, it would be nice for more ppl to do the same instead of "QQ Eve is dead, Unsubbing"
Actually there are plenty of arguments around, if you read whole topic you will find them out, pretty much the most of side effects is summed up and "supporters" have no counter arguments for those.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6852
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:55:24 -
[1684] - Quote
Crashys wrote:Banirtal Cadelanne wrote:Love the idea! Go for it CCP!! Why only the CCP sponsored goonies love the idea of spending ISK given by CCP on their 'more than proven' aid to help Papa Mittani be something in the game?? Is it because CCP gave you (and continue to give) a perfect game mechanics adjusted to your needs?? LOL I see EVE as 'Goonies Enterprise' only. I wish i was being paid like Mittani is by CCP... :(
Yeah, I want to help those newbies be literally damping you on day 1 rather than I think like day 7 or something.
500,000 SP is like a week at max training, but for a newbie without those options (and while we give out implants, they do get exploded or make them just sit out a week, and then another week, etc etc) it might be worth, I don't know 2 weeks if you consider they need various skills and won't be optimally remapped for all of them as well.
So yeah, it's about perpetuating our power by pushing the agenda of our newbies.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6852
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:56:46 -
[1685] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Aralyn Cormallen wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Yeah, as the liquidation has a trivial cost.... what's the cost again, did they tell us yet?
Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players. You are familiar with CCP's microtransaction price policy right? My bet is on it being 1/2 - full PLEX per widget just to create the packet, and I reckon I'm underpricing. Trivial price... yeah Well putting it as AUR does allow them to ... ah what is it... "tweak knobs" as it were... but then again doing that might be too painful, increasing or decreasing the cost huh? You are also familiar with CCP's stellar history in swift and agile knob twisting right? It only took 11 months til the first sqeaky turn of the jump fatigue knob after all. Light-speed :whoosh: Was that because the person at the knob is... ah... elsewhere?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
134
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:56:47 -
[1686] - Quote
As the thread grows it seems somethings must be repeated.
Earlier in this thread we built upon a very simple presmisse all blobers know and love:
- Anything that benefits new players, benefits veterans making new alts by the potency of how many alts they can make.
- Anything that benefits single player game play benefits group gameplay by the potency of number of players.
I say potency, not sum, because two alts, and further more two players, are not only twice as powerful as one, but individual two players cannot achieve what combined two players can. Alts follow the same pattern.
Improving with ill conceived ideas the new single player gameplay can improve by the 1000 potency the power of multiple dozen account holders that may become just too powerful to fall.
That has happened in the past, that will happen again. That is the reason some of the most powerful groups in EVE are the most powerful groups in EVE to begin with.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Dave Stark
7551
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:57:09 -
[1687] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: "supporters" have no counter arguments for those.
there's not really a lot to counter.
nothing about this new system is new or interesting - you've always been able to bypass the passive training system by buying/selling characters. now you just do it in sp directly. |
Arja Archangel
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:57:16 -
[1688] - Quote
Sounds good! Supporting this! ;D |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6852
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:59:24 -
[1689] - Quote
Arja Archangel wrote:Sounds good! Supporting this! ;D Are you relatively new? I don't want to assume based on the corp/alliance, but I'm told that if you are this new option will seriously harm you.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Miss Hello Kitty
We Have Lost the Game
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:01:17 -
[1690] - Quote
I've used the character bazaar before and if implemented, I'm sure I'd use SP if the price wasn't prohibitive. I really cont care a whole lot either way if it's done or not, I'm sure people will adapt to it. I don't see how something like this would attract new players in and of itself, but I can see them buying SP if they (or older players) wanted to skill up faster for any number of reasons (corp/ally doctrine changes...etc)
Sort of off topic, but here's an idea if CCP really wants to make some money without changing the client at all: Put stuff in your eve store that isnt junk and way overpriced. I'm talking about T-shirts, water bottles, keychains, mugs...etc. CCP gets money from people like me who like wearing stuff like this, gets free advertising from me and might just gain a few new players by asking me what EVE Online is or what is that Rifter model on my desk at work. |
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:01:27 -
[1691] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:So you just quoted the part where it says it favors new players and challenged me for stating the same with additional comment that it will not work. Thank you for making your own previous posts looking dump and finally taking away chances that anyone can give some seriousness to your posts. And of course thank you for such great meaningful contribution.
ROFL. actually i quoted the reason why there's diminishing returns - and it quite clearly states it isn't for new players it's to protect the prestige of having an older character. if you want to make random connections that's cool - but the fact remains that nowhere in the devblog does ccp state this is for new players. you can say it was intended for new players all you want - however there's not a single statement that supports that assertion. Let me bold that once more for you. Beside the obvious mechanism which does it. favors new playersor you need more? favors new playersfavors new playersfavors new playersPlease, either stop trolling or start to add some real contribution to the discussion. kktnxbye favours =/= is designed for. learn english, kkthnxbye
Aha so it is designed for those who it does not favor? Amazing logic. For a sake of argument let`s say that this nonsense you said is true.
So CCP is changing the fundamentals of their game, fundamentals of multi million usd/eur business, to provide option to some people who did mistakes in skilling their chars or need just some more sp to make their dreams come true. Company is changing fundamentals of such business to gain couple of thousands usd/eur more or to make 1% of player base happier?
If you cannot realize why that is ******** then I really give up.
Then by all means CCP go ahead, kill the game as soon as possible so we do not have anything to hope for. Since this might be just a start of avalanche of ******** ideas.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave kazkade
Conquering Darkness
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:02:01 -
[1692] - Quote
Dave kazkade wrote:First off I would like to say even though I do like the idea that ccp is trying to make the game allot easier for new players to get into, I am not for the idea that skill points can be something that can be bought or sold on the market. I don't have to say the reason, as everyone has stated allot of possibilities why this will cause more harm than good.
Now I will like to suggest a idea, instead of making sp tradeable, how about making character trading allot easier to know about, implement it as a game feature. Like a market place that can be opened in the game, rather than A forum section that people have to look for to find. Also, implement the ability for freshly traded characters to have the name changed, how ever limit this to were players cannot fake a name change that own the account or are abusing the name change system in a way to reuse a character for corp theft.
Also if you want to make the game more fun for new players, implement a way for them to test ships they cannot fly, like a arena or something interesting to show them how fun the game can be when they get good sp.
Another thing, make it to were all new players have access to the advanced cerebral accelerator, this is another item that even though can be traded for isk on the market, I find that the only way for new players to get there hands on it is to buy the (expansion packs) online, which I see it as a "if you pay us money we will make the game easier for you to get into" this is a no no. so please remove it. Also, remove remaps, and make all the stats maxed and keep the implants. Reduce the amount of time it takes to train skills.
And if you want to find a way to introduce more players onto eve? Work on project legion again, The only reason I see why you guys decided to stop working on it is because the dust 514 community was upset because (I don't have a gaming pc) or something stupid like that, supporting a game on a outdated console like the ps3 is a very dumb and stupid idea. Who cares what the dust community thinks, allot of them don't give you any money what so ever, and they just play the game, allot of them don't even know what eve is, but know how to log onto the forums. So. long story short, you want more players of eve? Port dust 514 to pc and add allot of features to it, like being able to manufacture goods for legion players, just something more to interact with the eve universe than rather (oh I push f1 now i get pew pew on planets im so cool, this is boring)
Now that I have given my suggest to CCP what i think should change I will like to now start giving my input to the players of this game. If you do what I am about to describe below, then shame on you, you are the reason this game is going to ****, and you should feel bad everytime you suggest a way to fix the game, you are not helping.
First off for the players that come onto threads like this and state "Im going to unsub now because this is a bad idea" This thread was made to give feedback to ccp to tell them how you feel about the changes, it doesn't mean that they will do it. So far from what I have seen, the CSM says no, and the community says no. So it will most likely will not happen. But when you start to say that eve is dieing and you threaten CCP with the fact that you are going to stop supplying them with money, you are a good reason why this game is going to ****, because if you don't get what you want, you will stop giving money to the people who try to make the game for interesting for new people.
And for those players who say "the game is dieing" or something related to that, you are not helping, when you put this information out there for everyone to see, how do you think a new player feels about seeing a 3+ year old pilot in a game saying its dieing, do you think they will invest the time and money into a game that since you all are saying "its dieing" they think that ccp will pull the plug one day? Yeah, you are not helping, everytime you state this, you make a new player think the game that you enjoy playing is a ******* waist of time and **** you for even saying osmething remotely close to this.
I love this game as much as you guys do. Probably even more. But when you say the game is dieing you make new players think it is a waist of time, that they shouldn't even train skills in it.
When ccp comes along and ask the community about a idea they had, they are asking you guys if it is okay to implement it. So far you guys have made great responses to CCP, but actually unsubscribing is not the way to change ccp's mind, you are killing the game by doing this.
I put allot of thought into this, and I have waisted a long time writing this.
tl;dr:
SP trading is no no, make other ways for new players to enjoy the game without real money
Remove remaps and make it to were all skills train at same pace, with the option of implants still
Resume development on project legion, there are allot of FPS players on PC, and tons of them will love the idea, dust 514 community is salty, and ps3 is a outdated piece of ****. stop supporting it.
Rant about how players should stop saying that "eve is a dieing game" as this causes more players to not even want to spend time in it because they think it will die because all these old players are saying so.
After reading into it more, and thinking about how this will make the game better for new players, I have decided I am for the SP trading rather than against it, I still stand on my other points made in this post.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:03:12 -
[1693] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: "supporters" have no counter arguments for those. there's not really a lot to counter. nothing about this new system is new or interesting - you've always been able to bypass the passive training system by buying/selling characters. now you just do it in sp directly.
There are plenty of things to counter. When you see proposed ideas there are always arguments pro & cons. We lack those pro arguments here as " great innovation, way to go ccp" is not really an argument.
And when making such decisions beside pro & cons you need to take possible side effects in the consideration. And there are plenty in this case. Luckily, we can hope there are people smarter and more analytical than you working for CCP.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Banirtal Cadelanne
Cadelanne Mining Corporation Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:04:20 -
[1694] - Quote
Crashys wrote:Banirtal Cadelanne wrote:Love the idea! Go for it CCP!! Why only the CCP sponsored goonies love the idea of spending ISK given by CCP on their 'more than proven' aid to help Papa Mittani be something in the game?? Is it because CCP gave you (and continue to give) a perfect game mechanics adjusted to your needs?? LOL I see EVE as 'Goonies Enterprise' only. I wish i was being paid like Mittani is by CCP... :(
Actually I am worse than a goonie.....I rent from them |
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra Gallente Federation
443
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:04:40 -
[1695] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tippia wrote:I care that you are able to pay to bypass a core game mechanic. which is what the character bazzar has been doing for people since whenever it was introduced. i'm glad you're fine with all of this, then. Same logic as plex. With the bazaar, at least someone HAD to endure the training, all the way. HAD to think about it, elaborate it. With skill sculpting, you not only able to put someone else's skill points freely and such, but you can also model your own char by "liposculpting" your skill pool. In the bazaar you cannot circumvent the time by agregating skill points from multiple chars in one. By means of skills modeling, you actually can put several chars to train in order to make a triple, ten fold, hundred fold, skill queue which then you just pull up to one single char. That is impossible using the bazaar. +1 Why this is so hard for some to understand is beyond me. PLEX and the character bazaar are one thing, but the "skill sculpting" is another entirely. CCP should take this thread as a warning of the reaction to come if they go ahead with this, not everyone reads forums/reddit/whatever.
Ok, all fine and dandy that you will be able to pour SP into a single character.
However, even if we disregard the differences between this new system and the char bazaar (which IMO there is virtually none whatsoever) there is still that little matter of one versus many. So what if you can max out a character in no-time assuming you have the wallet to do so. In the end, what will it REALLY matter? I mean, in all these years EVE has consistently encouraged people to use alts whenever possible for the sole reason of multi-tasking.
It doesn't matter in the slightest if a single character is maxed out. It will still be unable to multi-task. Sure, it can do everything from mining to whatever just perfectly but....so what?
Furthermore, who cares is a complete newbie gets a maxed out character? The only thing that will happen is that said player will just lose expensive ships - something that seem to happen more often than not with new wallet-warriors with 0 actual experience. Isn't that kinda what players would want to see more of?
All in all I say that this new system is a worse deal than the current bazaar system for the sole reason that SP are actually destroyed in the process.
All in all what CCP has to do is simply make sure that the efficiency of this new system decreases exponentially as a characters SP decreases. That way it will be a system that is aimed at young capsuleers and be utterly worthless for anyone past say...150 mil SP or so.
Frankly this community has become quite something. All these entitled whiners who almost actively seek to see this game shut down. |
Dave Stark
7551
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:06:42 -
[1696] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Aha so it is designed for those who it does not favor?
it's designed for everyone
"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone."
if you took a moment to read the devblog, that would be fantastic. |
Dave Stark
7551
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:08:37 -
[1697] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: "supporters" have no counter arguments for those. there's not really a lot to counter. nothing about this new system is new or interesting - you've always been able to bypass the passive training system by buying/selling characters. now you just do it in sp directly. There are plenty of things to counter. When you see proposed ideas there are always arguments pro & cons. We lack those pro arguments here as " great innovation, way to go ccp" is not really an argument. And when making such decisions beside pro & cons you need to take possible side effects in the consideration. And there are plenty in this case. Luckily, we can hope there are people smarter and more analytical than you working for CCP. edit: It is new, they are changing the fundamentals of the game, causing inconsistency in it. I understand that you cannot comprehend why is that not good :)
except the fundamentals really aren't being changed - anyone who wants a huge sp boost can already get one.
the fact it already exists means there's very little pros/cons of this idea. it already exists, just in a more convoluted form.
pretending this is anything other than a quality of life change is laughable. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6852
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:10:49 -
[1698] - Quote
Miss Hello Kitty wrote:CCP gets money from people like me who like wearing stuff like this, gets free advertising from me and might just gain a few new players by asking me what EVE Online is or what is that Rifter model on my desk at work. Aww, how much is a Rifter model? I'm assuming this is a thing they already sell...
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Elfaen Ethenwe
The Executives Executive Outcomes
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:11:30 -
[1699] - Quote
Why not bump the starting SP for young players to 1 million, have it free to spend how they wish, OR alloctaed for them depending on preference.
Then leave the character bazaar alone.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6852
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:11:54 -
[1700] - Quote
Banirtal Cadelanne wrote:Crashys wrote:Banirtal Cadelanne wrote:Love the idea! Go for it CCP!! Why only the CCP sponsored goonies love the idea of spending ISK given by CCP on their 'more than proven' aid to help Papa Mittani be something in the game?? Is it because CCP gave you (and continue to give) a perfect game mechanics adjusted to your needs?? LOL I see EVE as 'Goonies Enterprise' only. I wish i was being paid like Mittani is by CCP... :( Actually I am worse than a goonie.....I rent from them Now now... it's all part of co-prospering on the farms and fields ccp gave moa to burn. Haha moa...
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
|
Wendrika Hydreiga
520
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:12:21 -
[1701] - Quote
Banirtal Cadelanne wrote:Actually I am worse than a goonie.....I rent from them
The horror! Have you no decency?! |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
134
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:12:40 -
[1702] - Quote
I am starting to change my idea of supporting this or not.
As it seems, no one really cares how this affects new players or the overall perception of EVE.
If that is not really a concern for most people, I am starting to like the idea of basking in bought SP and Tony Stark style alt armies.
Think I will start to support this XD
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Elfaen Ethenwe
The Executives Executive Outcomes
45
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:13:45 -
[1703] - Quote
The Future: A (insert alliance name here) Broadcast:
Tomorrow, CCP are going to boost Nightmares to be the greatest thing ever. Please ensure everyone has their skills configured to exploit the meta as MUCH as possible to ensure that we remain dominant. Skill points are still available via alliance forums so if you don't have them yet be sure to cough up your pennies. There is no excuse in modern eve to not have exactly the ship we ask you to fly so be there on time!
If you honestly think this wont change eve, then you are dumb. The current system is bottlenecked by the existence of the characters in the bazaar. Sue you can find a character atm to fit every need but thay are upwards of 40-60bil isk. They do not impact on a wider scale (if they did you'd have all bought ratting ishtar alts for ratting by now) and it takes a long time for the current meta characters to be trained up and then hit the market. This natural bottleneck stops one entity theory crafting something the day the patch notes are released and steam rolling eve the day after patch day. |
Dave Stark
7551
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:15:49 -
[1704] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:I am starting to change my idea of supporting this or not.
As it seems, no one really cares how this affects new players or the overall perception of EVE.
If that is not really a concern for most people, I am starting to like the idea of basking in bought SP and Tony Stark style alt armies.
Think I will start to support this XD
let's face it - clueless youtube commenters think it's pay to win anyway - even after this it still won't be pay to win.
new players are going to be affected the same as the rest of us - if they dig out their credit cards or find a good way to make isk they can buy SP (just like they could before on the character bazzar). |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
406
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:17:54 -
[1705] - Quote
What's next? Removing subs and just paying for SP? PvP arenas? Queing for group DEDs? This change is nothing for the players, it's a big change for you CCP. New players still not be catching up, unless they pay you...
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:21:27 -
[1706] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: "supporters" have no counter arguments for those. there's not really a lot to counter. nothing about this new system is new or interesting - you've always been able to bypass the passive training system by buying/selling characters. now you just do it in sp directly. There are plenty of things to counter. When you see proposed ideas there are always arguments pro & cons. We lack those pro arguments here as " great innovation, way to go ccp" is not really an argument. And when making such decisions beside pro & cons you need to take possible side effects in the consideration. And there are plenty in this case. Luckily, we can hope there are people smarter and more analytical than you working for CCP. edit: It is new, they are changing the fundamentals of the game, causing inconsistency in it. I understand that you cannot comprehend why is that not good :) except the fundamentals really aren't being changed - anyone who wants a huge sp boost can already get one. the fact it already exists means there's very little pros/cons of this idea. it already exists, just in a more convoluted form. pretending this is anything other than a quality of life change is laughable.
Except that is not truth. Can you get 300mil sp char now? Is there any possibility to do so? NO.
Please do not go into how much it will cost to get it after the changes, it will be doable so fundamentals will be changed. And in that way the consistency and customer-service relationship.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2156
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:22:05 -
[1707] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:a new player who starts playing today can't get past a few thousand SP. the character bazzar bypasses that limit. No it does not. The new player's characters are restricted by the same mechanics as everyone else's. You are confusing character and player. Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this.
And while you're there, show me where I can buy back T3 skills immediately after a welp.
Because that will be a thing for big alliance.
"Nice one guys, we actually beat the T3 blob, they're down for a few days to retrain, most likely" >LOLISK and we're back. |
Dave Stark
7551
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:22:36 -
[1708] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: "supporters" have no counter arguments for those. there's not really a lot to counter. nothing about this new system is new or interesting - you've always been able to bypass the passive training system by buying/selling characters. now you just do it in sp directly. There are plenty of things to counter. When you see proposed ideas there are always arguments pro & cons. We lack those pro arguments here as " great innovation, way to go ccp" is not really an argument. And when making such decisions beside pro & cons you need to take possible side effects in the consideration. And there are plenty in this case. Luckily, we can hope there are people smarter and more analytical than you working for CCP. edit: It is new, they are changing the fundamentals of the game, causing inconsistency in it. I understand that you cannot comprehend why is that not good :) except the fundamentals really aren't being changed - anyone who wants a huge sp boost can already get one. the fact it already exists means there's very little pros/cons of this idea. it already exists, just in a more convoluted form. pretending this is anything other than a quality of life change is laughable. Except that is not truth. Can you get 300mil sp char now? Is there any possibility to do so? NO. Please do not go into how much it will cost to get it after the changes, it will be doable so fundamentals will be changed. And in that way the consistency and customer-service relationship.
is there anything a 300m sp character can do that i can't get any other character to do? no. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6852
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:23:29 -
[1709] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Except that is not truth. Can you get 300mil sp char now? Is there any possibility to do so? NO.
Please do not go into how much it will cost to get it after the changes, it will be doable so fundamentals will be changed. And in that way the consistency and customer-service relationship. Oh no, a fundamentalist.
Also, the customer-service in the bazaar is pretty good, I'll admit. They really have their work cut out constantly removing posts from there. Good thing SP packets won't need that busywork.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
deezy 1dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance.
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:23:57 -
[1710] - Quote
I just wanted to say that overall I support this idea.
It is really a huge improvement on character trading while also creating a huge SP sink once you have done it a certain number of times.
It will give dummies like me the chance to fly around in things we really should not be flying to give out some sweet kill mails to the real PVPers running around.
I see what people are saying about an issue with not being able to guess a persons SP by tapping their name in local but I would call that for the better. I remember in my first few months being very harshly targeted specifically for my low age. I may have come out better on the other side of dealing with that but that is not changed here. The only difference is those pirates could end up being the easy target when they jump in on someone who has dumped in a load of cash.
Only flying what you can afford to lose will take on a whole new meaning when newbies in battleships go where they should not be and get wiped out by a small group of players that actually know what they are doing with their SP.
With all that being said I do see people feeling like this significantly demeans their SP investment but there is much more that comes from growing your assets and abilities over time than just being able to sport a flashy ship that would take newbies a year or more to get.
Just my 2 ISK that will get quickly overlooked.
o7
|
|
Dave Stark
7551
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:24:56 -
[1711] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:a new player who starts playing today can't get past a few thousand SP. the character bazzar bypasses that limit. No it does not. The new player's characters are restricted by the same mechanics as everyone else's. You are confusing character and player. Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this. And while you're there, show me where I can buy back T3 skills immediately after a welp. Because that will be a thing for big alliance. "Nice one guys, we actually beat the T3 blob, they're down for a few days to retrain, most likely" >LOLISK and we're back.
you mean - you don't have multiple t3 pilots like the rest of us?
peasant. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12670
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:28:03 -
[1712] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:a new player who starts playing today can't get past a few thousand SP. the character bazzar bypasses that limit. No it does not. The new player's characters are restricted by the same mechanics as everyone else's. You are confusing character and player. Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this. And while you're there, show me where I can buy back T3 skills immediately after a welp. Because that will be a thing for big alliance. "Nice one guys, we actually beat the T3 blob, they're down for a few days to retrain, most likely" >LOLISK and we're back.
+1
This post embodies my opposition to the idea. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:28:57 -
[1713] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Aha so it is designed for those who it does not favor? it's designed for everyone "By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone." if you took a moment to read the devblog, that would be fantastic.
I did not just read it, I have also comprehended it, I suggest you do the same, maybe then you will figure it out.
Ie instead of just blindly reading you could try to get the picture of it and understand the whole mechanism and then realize that it obviously works as they said "it favours younger players". Not many older players will use it. And guess what - not many young players either.
Coming again to something i already have drawn to you, they are making change which will benefit only minor amount of player base and in order to do so they are changing the fundamentals.
It does not really matter what they wrote, what matters is how it will actually work and in that part they have obviously failed to analyze possible threats. Or they do not really care about the player base and just want to milk some more while the game lats. Both options sucks.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:30:35 -
[1714] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
there's not really a lot to counter.
nothing about this new system is new or interesting - you've always been able to bypass the passive training system by buying/selling characters. now you just do it in sp directly.
There are plenty of things to counter. When you see proposed ideas there are always arguments pro & cons. We lack those pro arguments here as " great innovation, way to go ccp" is not really an argument. And when making such decisions beside pro & cons you need to take possible side effects in the consideration. And there are plenty in this case. Luckily, we can hope there are people smarter and more analytical than you working for CCP. edit: It is new, they are changing the fundamentals of the game, causing inconsistency in it. I understand that you cannot comprehend why is that not good :) except the fundamentals really aren't being changed - anyone who wants a huge sp boost can already get one. the fact it already exists means there's very little pros/cons of this idea. it already exists, just in a more convoluted form. pretending this is anything other than a quality of life change is laughable. Except that is not truth. Can you get 300mil sp char now? Is there any possibility to do so? NO. Please do not go into how much it will cost to get it after the changes, it will be doable so fundamentals will be changed. And in that way the consistency and customer-service relationship. is there anything a 300m sp character can do that i can't get any other character to do? no.
That does not answer my question. Thanks for proving you are here just for gibberish spam.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2157
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:30:53 -
[1715] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:a new player who starts playing today can't get past a few thousand SP. the character bazzar bypasses that limit. No it does not. The new player's characters are restricted by the same mechanics as everyone else's. You are confusing character and player. Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this. And while you're there, show me where I can buy back T3 skills immediately after a welp. Because that will be a thing for big alliance. "Nice one guys, we actually beat the T3 blob, they're down for a few days to retrain, most likely" >LOLISK and we're back. you mean - you don't have multiple t3 pilots like the rest of us? peasant.
I do, and you jest - but don't try and make out it won't be a thing overnight.
Even at the peak high end cap it will be plenty affordable for most non-trivial alliances.
That's the fundamental difference between the bazaar and this idea - one is ENTIRELY DEPENDENT on supply - the other circumnavigates it in totality. The bazaar cannot react to a shifting meta in the way this concept can.
They are fundamentally different and to think otherwise is either foolish or being deliberately obtuse.
No, no-one is going to roll along and max out for funises, but what WILL happen is bad toons/thiefs will be trivially laundered, there will be alliance SPRP for T3s, new ship classes will be instantly maxed out by older players - thus utterly destroying the core concept of "specialisation beats age" amongst various other nasties people have pointed out and hand-waving "but the bazaar" singularly fails to address a single one of these problems.
Consider - the new T2 destroyers coming - if this is in play - who do you think will have that at Vs first, the newbean, who specialised for it, or the rick old dude who just bought it? |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1675
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:31:19 -
[1716] - Quote
we should all make incursion alts and flood the channels with alts, carebears will start moaning then ccp will change something
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:32:55 -
[1717] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Except that is not truth. Can you get 300mil sp char now? Is there any possibility to do so? NO.
Please do not go into how much it will cost to get it after the changes, it will be doable so fundamentals will be changed. And in that way the consistency and customer-service relationship. Oh no, a fundamentalist. Also, the customer-service in the bazaar is pretty good, I'll admit. They really have their work cut out constantly removing posts from there. Good thing SP packets won't need that busywork.
Bazaar came the way of fighting RMT, which was present since the start of the game. I do agree it is not the perfect solution but this is different topic.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
134
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:35:09 -
[1718] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:I am starting to change my idea of supporting this or not.
As it seems, no one really cares how this affects new players or the overall perception of EVE.
If that is not really a concern for most people, I am starting to like the idea of basking in bought SP and Tony Stark style alt armies.
Think I will start to support this XD let's face it - clueless youtube commenters think it's pay to win anyway - even after this it still won't be pay to win. new players are going to be affected the same as the rest of us - if they dig out their credit cards or find a good way to make isk they can buy SP (just like they could before on the character bazzar).
Well, all paid games can be considered pay to win, as if you dont pay, you also dont win. Concept Wars at its best.
Those talking about pay to win are just mumbling a point of order they dont actually understand.
I am criticized when I make IRL examples for EVE issues, but I wont stop because of that.
The problem is not pay to win, as the problem of the World is not rich people circumventing the law. The problem of paid augumentation is the lack of considering what the non-target public can do with things. And the "Scientifc Determinism".
Scientific Determinism is the prectice of assuming you understand a complex system by understanding its simples parts.
Pay to win is the least of worries. Actually, most people who intent to pay to win end up losing money, losing the game, and rage quitting because "there is no playing just spending". Pay to Win is just bullshit people use to excuse lack of ability to play. They blame the game for being corrupt instead of taking action to learn how to play.
The problem is the possible use of a given thing that may be acquiired for any means, be it paying real money, farming or any other easy way that has no direct link with achieving a learning step.
You may pay to be able to enter a process in which you gain something and learn something, is still a form of pay to win by idiocratic eyes, but it does not impact the overall game, as it still requires learning.
The problem is having people who have not learned in a position of benefiting. And that for me has nothing to do with elitism, has to do with the lack of preparation the player has in facing a part of the gameplay the player has not trained to in lesser challenging situations, which in turn will lead to a mass of such players demanding the "nerf", the "balance" or anyway kids today call "I cant find a solution, solve it for me".
That is the real problem. It is not how a given player reaches or passes by a given content, but the notion that after you put a lot of rookies into a veterans postion, you dumb down that postion to suit the now majority that is theres and for the lack of experience, demands lesser challenges.
It is not pay to win the problem, it is paid powers misused demanding adaptation to the minimal common denominator.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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gascanu
Bearing Srl.
257
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:35:32 -
[1719] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:a new player who starts playing today can't get past a few thousand SP. the character bazzar bypasses that limit. No it does not. The new player's characters are restricted by the same mechanics as everyone else's. You are confusing character and player. Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this. And while you're there, show me where I can buy back T3 skills immediately after a welp. Because that will be a thing for big alliance. "Nice one guys, we actually beat the T3 blob, they're down for a few days to retrain, most likely" >LOLISK and we're back.
well this depends on how many of this packs do i need on my 180 mil sp char to cover my sp loss...
on the other hand, i just killed your 800 mil ship and you have to spend another billion on sps, so even better for me
i think this is a good idea in general the numbers need a bit of mishmashing around but a good thing all over; |
Malou Hashur
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
73
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:36:25 -
[1720] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Then by all means CCP go ahead, kill the game as soon as possible so we do not have anything to hope for. Since this might be just a start of avalanche of ******** ideas.
This isnt the START of an avalanche of sh!t ideas, that started a long time ago.
CCP Philosophy ==>>
If it works, break it. If itGÇÖs broken, leave it and break something else.
Ignore all Forum comments that raise issues and concerns about our "features", and bring said "features" in anyway.
|
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2157
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:36:30 -
[1721] - Quote
gascanu wrote:afkalt wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:a new player who starts playing today can't get past a few thousand SP. the character bazzar bypasses that limit. No it does not. The new player's characters are restricted by the same mechanics as everyone else's. You are confusing character and player. Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this. And while you're there, show me where I can buy back T3 skills immediately after a welp. Because that will be a thing for big alliance. "Nice one guys, we actually beat the T3 blob, they're down for a few days to retrain, most likely" >LOLISK and we're back. well this depends on how many of this packs do i need on my 180 mil sp char to cover my sp loss... on the other hand, i just killed your 800 mil ship and you have to spend another billion on sps, so even better for me i think this is a good idea in general the numbers need a bit of mishmashing around but a good thing all over;
At worst it will be 5. More likely 4 and a very short train unless it is a massive CTA. |
Mynxee
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
220
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:36:37 -
[1722] - Quote
After considering everyone's opinions in this entire thread, several blog posts, Twitter discussion, and reddit, I've had a change of heart about skill trading.
tl;dr: Go for it, it won't impact me personally, will help newer players become more invested in the game, and could be a positive for CCP's bottom line. Had to let go my CSM5 baggage to arrive at that opinion though.
Blog post is here.
Lost in space, looking for sigs...
Blog: Outlaw Insouciant
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26472
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:41:37 -
[1723] - Quote
Eternal Bob wrote:It allows the buyer to bypass the time spent accumulating SP, which is what the proposed idea also does. No. The proposed idea lets characters bypass the in-game mechanic that determines how fast characters can acquire SP. The character bazaar changes which out-of-game player has access to which character. Since the players exist outside of the game, there is no game mechanic that restricts what characters they can use GÇö at most, that's falls under the out-of-game EULA.
So no, the bazaar does not in any way, shape, or form bypass game mechanics.
Quote:As does the proposed idea. GǪexcept that the proposed idea lets you bypass the game mechanics in how those SP are accumulated.
Quote:But it doesn't allow sellers to train skills faster than mechanics allow. Sure it does. It just doesn't make much sense for them to make use of that mechanic since there's little gain in it for them.
So there will indeed be a magical SP production that simply couldn't exist before. Rather than being a serial, singular process contained within a single character, it becomes a trivially parallelisable distributed process GÇö one that can create SP at a vastly higher pace than is currently possible.
Dave Stark wrote:I'm not confusing it. it's simply irrelevant. Wrong on both accounts. It is only the character side that is relevant because it is the only one that is restricted in its SP acquisition. This idea lets you bypass this restriction, wholly unlike how the bazaar operates.
Quote:funfact; this new service doesn't do that either. tippia will still be training at 2600 sp/hour, GǪplus another 2,400 SP/h from my SP farm, or a total of 5,000 SP per hour. If I choose to pay for it.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1676
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:41:38 -
[1724] - Quote
next up...aurum for jump fatigue steroids
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
135
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:44:29 -
[1725] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:next up...aurum for jump fatigue steroids
Next on New Eden Store
**Race** Donation Fund - Earn you +1 Standing rise with **Race**
Then we know it is the end of times.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1676
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:45:30 -
[1726] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Lan Wang wrote:next up...aurum for jump fatigue steroids Next on New Eden Store **Race** Donation Fund - Earn you +1 Standing rise with **Race** Then we know it is the end of times.
the possibilities are endless
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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gascanu
Bearing Srl.
257
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:49:22 -
[1727] - Quote
afkalt wrote:gascanu wrote:afkalt wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:a new player who starts playing today can't get past a few thousand SP. the character bazzar bypasses that limit. No it does not. The new player's characters are restricted by the same mechanics as everyone else's. You are confusing character and player. Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this. And while you're there, show me where I can buy back T3 skills immediately after a welp. Because that will be a thing for big alliance. "Nice one guys, we actually beat the T3 blob, they're down for a few days to retrain, most likely" >LOLISK and we're back. well this depends on how many of this packs do i need on my 180 mil sp char to cover my sp loss... on the other hand, i just killed your 800 mil ship and you have to spend another billion on sps, so even better for me i think this is a good idea in general the numbers need a bit of mishmashing around but a good thing all over; At worst it will be 5. More likely 4 and a very short train unless it is a massive CTA.
depending how much this packs will cost, let's say ~500 mil a high sp char will need to spend 2-2.5 bil plus the ship cost; i think not many alliances can cover that on a day to day base, a fleet of 50 ppl will need around 150 bil- that a titan and a half
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Sgt Ocker
Military Bustards
726
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:50:17 -
[1728] - Quote
A player who has been investing his time and money into the game for 4 or 5 or more years, is mainly going to be doing 1,000,000 SP + skill cues and can use 500K from another character at a cost of $$ (undisclosed) to gain 50k SP. Bonus!!!
Years invested in a character to have that time (and money) devalued like this? EG: I have 10 mil SP in missiles, which soon will be rendered useless again (for pvp) but to redistribute those skills into something else, I am to pay for those SP again but at a rate of 500k = 400k. So the 10 mil SP that cost me -+6 months to train will cost me $X (or at best a few billion isk) to reallocate for a total return of 4 mil SP because I have 54 mil SP. Which further devalues the character if I decide to sell it because it ends up with <50 mil SP.
Your also going to devalue (for now) then eventually remove a legitimate income source from players who train characters specifically for the character bazaar. $40 per character transferred - The character bazaar must not be generating enough side income. Oh and the auction aspect of the sales is very balanced - People will pay what they believe an item is worth (in any business transaction you research your product, in Eve more than anywhere else, you will pay for your mistakes and that has always been acceptable) - You removing that by fixing a $ value and sale price to SP is removing players rights to make isk in a free market. You allow scammers, thieves, gankers, market manipulators to operate freely yet want to remove a legitimate avenue for players to make isk from their invested time and money by setting the price they can receive, double standards much.,. Lets just break part of the game and limit income of many players so we can skim a few more bucks out of those willing to pay to play the game to start with. Most pay to win game models don't have subscription fees, when is that likely to arrive?
Quote:As you can see, this design favors skill transfers for younger characters and makes them very inefficient for older characters. WeGÇÖve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character. Will actually do exactly the opposite - Why spend 2 years training up a character for a specific role when someone else can do it for a few $. EG; I have a max skill titan pilot with <50 mil SP so unless these skill point packages are going to cost more than the plex value of training plus skillbooks (in which case they are nothing more than a money grab) it devalues the cost of 2 years training + skill books spent on this character. (NB; It has no connections to this character, don't bother watch listing me ) And seriously do you think prestige has anything to do with Skill Points? You took away the "prestige" component of eve when you nerfed capitals and supers to near death. Prestige is about what you fly and how you fly it, not how many SP you wasted years obtaining. This will only be reinforced when anyone with enough money (not isk but $) can start the game from day one and within a few days with 100 mil SP. This road could turn eve into the worst type of game (and go directly against everything eve has stood for, for the last 12 years) - Pay to Win. Plex prices add enough of a pay to win element to the game, don't add to it with this unless you are sure you got it right.
Quote: We would like feedback on everything from how the diminishing returns work to what ways you could see this feature being exploited to what ISK price to expect a Skill Packet to fetch so please let us know what you think. Well depending on how much these packages are to sell for is how many exploits there will be. Make them too expensive and it isn't worth doing, make them to cheap it just becomes an exploit to buff characters using badly trained alts. You also need to work out if Aurum or ISK is to be the currency they are purchased with, as further solidifying the dollar value of isk is very likely to encourage RMT'rs.
Diminishing returns could be better balanced, 50k SP (at a cost of 500k) for a higher skilled pilot is all but pointless and devalues time spent training. EG; 80 mil SP toon training fighters 5 - SP from 4 to 5 = 2,528,941 (48 days @ 2,200 sp/ph) @ 500k = 50k = 25,289,410 SP (1 year six months training time). Yet a pilot with <50 mil sp (still a very well skilled pilot) can do the same thing using 3,161,176 SP (3 months training time?)
Side note; You really might want to start considering your player base outside the US (Australia, Canada, New Zealand) who are forced to pay up to 30% more for every item CCP want to sell the player base. Especially since you are now considering moving to a pay to win / advance game model.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26473
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:50:41 -
[1729] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:except the fundamentals really aren't being changed - anyone who wants a huge sp boost can already get one. GǪexcept for the fundamental fact that you can only acquire SP at a given maximum speed and that there is no way to inject a huge SP boost into a character. All you can do at the moment is continue to acquire SP at the same given maximum speed on yet another character GÇö one that offers no boost, or indeed any improvement whatsoever, to the character you already have.
Pretending that is is anything other than a means to bypass game mechanics for cash is nothing short of moronic.
If it were just a matter of adding some granularity to the character bazaar by allowing the trading of skills, you might have a point in it being a QoL upgrade (even though it suffers from many of the same problems), but they were far too lazy to do that, so instead we have this infinite mechanics-skipping abomination.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Ben Musana
Black Nano Ops
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:51:27 -
[1730] - Quote
Quit interesting that CCP doesnt respond to all of our comments here ...
Maybe we get some answers here : http://www.twitch.tv/markeedragon
Dont wanna support him, but the topic is quit interesting 'Skill Trading Debate 14:00 Eve Time' - he means he has informed CCP about it and hopefully some answers will be brought.
Regards |
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Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
209
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:52:06 -
[1731] - Quote
So I read the dev blog and I'm a bit unsure, I'm thinking this will be gamed or exploited in some way I'm too stupid to think of so my initial reaction was no... but then I read this thread, and this is how bad you people are at arguing your point: I am in favour of it now.
The anti's so far are telling ccp not to do it because:
1) DONT DO IT!! coiners will come in and thrown money at you, you'll need wheelbarrows to get it to the bank.
2) If you do this all the free loading scabs will quit on principal... where would we be without our whiney entitled free loading scabs driving up the price of plex, and clogging up the servers with their multiboxer accounts and bots. We must hold onto our RMT scumvets at all costs.
3) Eve doesn't need new players, we just need to hold onto the same old neckbeards until they die of old age, or grow up and get real jobs.
4) Eve is speshal. Don't be like WOW, you don't want to emulate one of the most successful online games franchises ever.
5) EVe will dIEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!11!!!
These are terrible arguments people, if I didn't know it was all hyperbole I'd start looking into buying shares in CCP.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2158
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:53:05 -
[1732] - Quote
gascanu wrote: depending how much this packs will cost, let's say ~500 mil a high sp char will need to spend 2-2.5 bil plus the ship cost; i think not many alliances can cover that on a day to day base, a fleet of 50 ppl will need around 150 bil- that a titan and a half
Well you do try and not welp a T3 fleet daily - point is it frees large entities up from the SP loss. There are a lot of nasty little bits to this proposal.
Plus at that price, they're well out of newbie range, well out - so the notion it helps them falls flat on its ass.
Not to mention it is absolutely kicked into the long grass by malcanis law. |
Malou Hashur
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
73
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:54:05 -
[1733] - Quote
You all know that none of this matters, right ?
They have made up their mind and will bring it in regardless of how sh!t it is..
CCP Philosophy ==>>
If it works, break it. If itGÇÖs broken, leave it and break something else.
Ignore all Forum comments that raise issues and concerns about our "features", and bring said "features" in anyway.
|
Abla Tive
97
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:54:46 -
[1734] - Quote
I do not support this change.
1) It changes characters away from things that are "grown" into things that are "fit". Things that are grown have a story (and also history). I get attached to things that have a story. In other words, the proposal wants me to start treating characters like I treat ships (as things that get stuff slotted in (and out) of them- and by implication, possibly disposed of). This reduces my emotional attachment to the game. Not a good idea.
2) I don't think I like the lore implications. Why would immortal demigods squeeze out their brains like old curds? Are times really that hard? Rather, I think that it reveals too much that characters are mere puppets being jerked around by shadowy forces outside the universe. Again, it degrades the story and reduces my emotional attachment.
3) the idea that actions have consequences (which is one of the core ideas in Eve) is reduced. Training is one of the most important actions that can be taken, thus must be considered carefully. With the proposal, the consequences of bad decisions can be mitigated. The lower motivation means that I am less involved in the game. |
Ardden
Critical Mass Project The Void Collective
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:55:32 -
[1735] - Quote
if they made a new server for this, this would be exciting.
other wise, thread topic.. no thank you not like this.
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:57:35 -
[1736] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:A player who has been investing his time and money into the game for 4 or 5 or more years, is mainly going to be doing 1,000,000 SP + skill cues and can use 500K from another character at a cost of $$ (undisclosed) to gain 50k SP. Bonus!!! Years invested in a character to have that time (and money) devalued like this? EG: I have 10 mil SP in missiles, which soon will be rendered useless again (for pvp) but to redistribute those skills into something else, I am to pay for those SP again but at a rate of 500k = 400k. So the 10 mil SP that cost me -+6 months to train will cost me $X (or at best a few billion isk) to reallocate for a total return of 4 mil SP because I have 54 mil SP. Which further devalues the character if I decide to sell it because it ends up with <50 mil SP. Your also going to devalue (for now) then eventually remove a legitimate income source from players who train characters specifically for the character bazaar. $40 per character transferred - The character bazaar must not be generating enough side income. Oh and the auction aspect of the sales is very balanced - People will pay what they believe an item is worth (in any business transaction you research your product, in Eve more than anywhere else, you will pay for your mistakes and that has always been acceptable) - You removing that by fixing a $ value and sale price to SP is removing players rights to make isk in a free market. You allow scammers, thieves, gankers, market manipulators to operate freely yet want to remove a legitimate avenue for players to make isk from their invested time and money by setting the price they can receive, double standards much.,. Lets just break part of the game and limit income of many players so we can skim a few more bucks out of those willing to pay to play the game to start with. Most pay to win game models don't have subscription fees, when is that likely to arrive? Quote:As you can see, this design favors skill transfers for younger characters and makes them very inefficient for older characters. WeGÇÖve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character. Will actually do exactly the opposite - Why spend 2 years training up a character for a specific role when someone else can do it for a few $. EG; I have a max skill titan pilot with <50 mil SP so unless these skill point packages are going to cost more than the plex value of training plus skillbooks (in which case they are nothing more than a money grab) it devalues the cost of 2 years training + skill books spent on this character. (NB; It has no connections to this character, don't bother watch listing me ) And seriously do you think prestige has anything to do with Skill Points? You took away the "prestige" component of eve when you nerfed capitals and supers to near death. Prestige is about what you fly and how you fly it, not how many SP you wasted years obtaining. This will only be reinforced when anyone with enough money (not isk but $) can start the game from day one and within a few days with 100 mil SP. This road could turn eve into the worst type of game (and go directly against everything eve has stood for, for the last 12 years) - Pay to Win. Plex prices add enough of a pay to win element to the game, don't add to it with this unless you are sure you got it right. Quote: We would like feedback on everything from how the diminishing returns work to what ways you could see this feature being exploited to what ISK price to expect a Skill Packet to fetch so please let us know what you think. Well depending on how much these packages are to sell for is how many exploits there will be. Make them too expensive and it isn't worth doing, make them to cheap it just becomes an exploit to buff characters using badly trained alts. You also need to work out if Aurum or ISK is to be the currency they are purchased with, as further solidifying the dollar value of isk is very likely to encourage RMT'rs. Diminishing returns could be better balanced, 50k SP (at a cost of 500k) for a higher skilled pilot is all but pointless and devalues time spent training. EG; 80 mil SP toon training fighters 5 - SP from 4 to 5 = 2,528,941 (48 days @ 2,200 sp/ph) @ 500k = 50k = 25,289,410 SP (1 year six months training time). Yet a pilot with <50 mil sp (still a very well skilled pilot) can do the same thing using 3,161,176 SP (3 months training time?) Side note; You really might want to start considering your player base outside the US (Australia, Canada, New Zealand) who are forced to pay up to 30% more for every item CCP want to sell the player base. Especially since you are now considering moving to a pay to win / advance game model.
Just a side note, if bazaar is removed it will be back on very fast. Since without it RMT ing of chars would increase and since the income of SP packet trading would be nowhere near the income from bazaar transactions.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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gascanu
Bearing Srl.
257
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:02:46 -
[1737] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:except the fundamentals really aren't being changed - anyone who wants a huge sp boost can already get one. GǪexcept for the fundamental fact that you can only acquire SP at a given maximum speed and that there is no way to inject a huge SP boost into a character. All you can do at the moment is continue to acquire SP at the same given maximum speed on yet another character GÇö one that offers no boost, or indeed any improvement whatsoever, to the character you already have. Pretending that is is anything other than a means to bypass game mechanics for cash is nothing short of moronic. If it were just a matter of adding some granularity to the character bazaar by allowing the trading of skills, you might have a point in it being a QoL upgrade (even though it suffers from many of the same problems), but they were far too lazy to do that, so instead we have this infinite mechanics-skipping abomination. so tell me what's that max speed if i go on bazar and buy some 100 mil sp char tomorrow?
i really don't understand all this negativity: some players will increase their sps, so what? anyone can do it!
when reading the devblog i was "hmm, pay to win" then after thinking ABOUT ME, i went "hmm, this thing can help me there and there", but i see now that for some ppls, this is all about other ppl, like "why should they not suffer like i did, no fair CCP!" really, maybe it's time to look at it from a different angle
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Orions Lord
NeoCom Systems
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:05:26 -
[1738] - Quote
CCP had internal discussions probably with lines like GÇÿGÇÖgreed is goodGÇÖGÇÖ. |
RomeStar
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
580
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:05:40 -
[1739] - Quote
This is a horrible Idea and will be the death of EVE imo. This does nothing to bring new players in to the game or even help retain existing players. The only players that will like this are the ones who put skill points in fields they no longer use or realized they didnt like that path oh and that will cost you to fix your crappy skill Q from back in the day.
I see a complete black market go up for this as well just like account selling on the multitude of websites.
This will make RMTraders job easier also this way they can hide spread SP over multiple characters/accounts and make the characters more specialiez and easier to sell. This will bite you in the ASS CCP.
Signatured removed, CCP Phantom
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26478
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:05:52 -
[1740] - Quote
gascanu wrote:so tell me what's that max speed if i go on bazar and buy some 100 mil sp char tomorrow? Depends on its skills, but on a 100M one I expect Cybernetics V to be part of the package. So the max is 2,700 SP/h.
Quote:i really don't understand all this negativity: some players will increase their sps, so what? anyone can do it! No, not anyone. Only those who can afford it can skip the game mechanics. That's about as horribly wrongheaded as game design ever gets. And again, if that's what they actually want to do, then fine (well not actually fine, but for the sake of argumentGǪ) but at least they should be honest about it and design a mechanism that isn't as opaque and over-engineered as this one.
A simple GÇ£pay PLEX to get a +¦Æ(ln(total SP)) training boostGÇ¥ account service would serve that particular purpose a hell of a lot better and be far easier to balance properly to boot.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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ArmyOfMe
Hull Breach. Outnumbered.
468
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:11:01 -
[1741] - Quote
Well, before i let my accounts run out if this gets implemented im gonna spend a few days then enjoying the total chaos of having a bunch of 1 day old alts with covert cynos in bombers running around 0,0 I also expect to see a lot of 1-2 day old chars running around in link ships soonGäó
The only good thing about this proposed change is that i havnt seen Don Zola this active in years
QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1731
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:11:46 -
[1742] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:next up...aurum for jump fatigue steroids Also resculpt transmutator thingy to become a Spaceelf. You would look beautiful
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Orions Lord
NeoCom Systems
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:12:32 -
[1743] - Quote
I have enough on this pvp character so if I sell 1 mont earned skill point does that equal me an plex. Then eve will be free to play for me.
I am sure CCP would love that loss of income. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1678
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:14:25 -
[1744] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Lan Wang wrote:next up...aurum for jump fatigue steroids Also resculpt transmutator thingy to become a Spaceelf. You would look beautiful
I could do a fabulous pose with a bow and arrow?
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Bantara
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:14:53 -
[1745] - Quote
I would immediately stop recommending Eve and pull my sub. Immediately and not return. Too many other games. It's hard enough to find time for Eve, knowing that I can run into someone who bought an all-V char without even having to take another character slot(possibly requiring an additional account) is quite a deterrent.
As someone said on the first page, just build a renaming and re-sculpting feature. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
257
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:14:57 -
[1746] - Quote
Tippia wrote:gascanu wrote:so tell me what's that max speed if i go on bazar and buy some 100 mil sp char tomorrow? Depends on its skills, but on a 100M one I expect Cybernetics V to be part of the package. So the max is 2,700 SP/h. Quote:i really don't understand all this negativity: some players will increase their sps, so what? anyone can do it! No, not anyone. Only those who can afford it can skip the game mechanics. That's about as horribly wrongheaded as game design ever gets.
no, the training speed for me is the time needed to get the isk used to pay for the char : for ex, an one day player can buy 30 plex and buy that 100mil sp char in 2 days; that is his training speed 2 days from 400k sps to 100 mil sps, and that is available right now; i don't see anyone complaining about skipping the game mechanincs |
Bantara
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:16:13 -
[1747] - Quote
Orions Lord wrote:I have enough on this pvp character so if I sell 1 mont earned skill point does that equal me an plex. Then eve will be free to play for me.
I am sure CCP would love that loss of income.
Someone had to buy the PLEX. They lose no money. Don't be this way.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1733
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:19:19 -
[1748] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Lan Wang wrote:next up...aurum for jump fatigue steroids Also resculpt transmutator thingy to become a Spaceelf. You would look beautiful I could do a fabulous pose with a bow and arrow? It's a spaceelf silly, they have like laser bows or something. We can probably keep the tight clothing though.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Quadira
Zacharia Explorations Group
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:21:15 -
[1749] - Quote
worst idea ever CCP |
Orions Lord
NeoCom Systems
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:21:37 -
[1750] - Quote
Bantara wrote:Orions Lord wrote:I have enough on this pvp character so if I sell 1 mont earned skill point does that equal me an plex. Then eve will be free to play for me.
I am sure CCP would love that loss of income. Someone had to buy the PLEX. They lose no money. Don't be this way.
True, this way we would live on the funding of the new player or the ones that want to donate for skillpoints. This will end well. |
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ClanLogan
United in Mining
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:21:40 -
[1751] - Quote
This ranks right up there w/ the introduction of Aurum itself as a BAD idea. Oh, hey we can introduce a new currency just so we can screw around with the one that already actually works!
So much for real time skill training, or make that training at all. Now all you need is real cash, and the difference from buying **** on e-bay is what ?
Damn guys, you are making ELITE DANGEROUS look better and better as an alternative. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26480
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:25:35 -
[1752] - Quote
gascanu wrote:no, the training speed for me is the time needed to get the isk used to pay for the char No. That is not your training speed. None of that affects how quickly your character acquires SP (other than if you use the SP to buy implants).
If you buy a character from the bazaar, no mechanics are skipped because your character is still acquiring SP at a maximum of 2700 SP/h GÇö same as always. All that's happening is that you are training a different character at that speed than you, personally, did yesterday.
Players do not exist in-game, and are not subject to game mechanics. Their characters are. You are talking about the speed at which a player gains access to a high-SP character, which no game mechanics exist to regulate since we are talking about a player. At most, there is the EULA, but that's nto a game mechanic. What the player can access should not be confused with how quickly a character can gain a high amount of SP, which is something that is regulated by game mechanics since characters exist within the game.
Player GÇö EULA. Character GÇö game mechanics. Do not confuse the two.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Dave Stark
7552
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:25:56 -
[1753] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:except the fundamentals really aren't being changed - anyone who wants a huge sp boost can already get one. GǪexcept for the fundamental fact that you can only acquire SP at a given maximum speed and that there is no way to inject a huge SP boost into a character. All you can do at the moment is continue to acquire SP at the same given maximum speed on yet another character GÇö one that offers no boost, or indeed any improvement whatsoever, to the character you already have. Pretending that is is anything other than a means to bypass game mechanics for cash is nothing short of moronic. If it were just a matter of adding some granularity to the character bazaar by allowing the trading of skills, you might have a point in it being a QoL upgrade (even though it suffers from many of the same problems), but they were far too lazy to do that, so instead we have this infinite mechanics-skipping abomination.
i'm bored of pointing out that "he has more sp than me" isn't a valid counterargument to them putting this in the game.
my subway is getting cold so let's skip ahead a bit; what difference will it actually make to the game when this is implemented?
what, in-game, problem will this cause?
oh right, none. |
Orions Lord
NeoCom Systems
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:25:59 -
[1754] - Quote
The RMT guys will love this if they get caught and banned . They skill up an new character big time and they can start the farming again. |
Ykcul Mileghere
Risus sardonicus inc
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:30:22 -
[1755] - Quote
lol. just no, strongly dissaprove. we want to help new player blablabla: pay for sub, pay for skill jar, to grind even more and still pay for a skill jar and buy a sub cause plexes that can be broken for aurum will become extremely expensive: 1.2kkk's still cheap) anyway youl'll never win over those who have 5+ accs to farm and they will make even more accs to farm more effeciently, and much easier due to skill jars. corp history of thieves, highsec gankers and other scammers? nope, they'll steal, gank, and use the profit and sp to buy a new character: you thought paranoia lvl5 is must have only for wh corps? we have character bazzar already, so there is no need in all this but one - your cash hunger. this won't solve any of the problems that caused players sink also. want new players? give them content, want old players to resub, give them reason to do that. all this thread caused is panic, rage and negative, at least at forums i read and ts i listned to. and one question: do you think that ppl that cant wait 2-3 month till they get some skills will play eve for long?(bet they'll leave after a few weeks, though they can donate for a few skill jars before getting bored) lied bout one question have some more: when we get golden bullets +100% falloff\optimal\damage and will i be able to customize color of my space unicorn ass-rainbow to look good with my space elf's clothes?
to dear fellows capsuleers: if a piece of sh*t is thrown into your face there's no need to be polite anymore, vote with you subs guys - the only language ccp understands clearly=) going to unsub at the very moment this **** hits tranq, no you can't have my stuff, just cause you dont deserve it |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
138
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:30:47 -
[1756] - Quote
One thing is for sure, with skill on sale, instead of a game of no epic heroes, we have a game of everyone being epic heroes.
It is like they said, capsuleers are demigods of EVE universe.
"- So I have been playing EVE from the start and I have maxed out everything - Big deal. I received my companies Xmas bonus and maxed out everything."
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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Orions Lord
NeoCom Systems
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:31:05 -
[1757] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:[quote=Tippia][quote=Dave Stark] i'm bored of pointing out that "he has more sp than me" isn't a valid counterargument to them putting this in the game.
my subway is getting cold so let's skip ahead a bit; what difference will it actually make to the game when this is implemented?
what, in-game, problem will this cause?
oh right, none.
The eve fundamentals are lost this way. I like it that eve is hard I think it should stay this way.
Also going from your T1 to T2 module is nice but it will feel great if you did something for it, in this case waiting for the skill to finish.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26483
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:31:58 -
[1758] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i'm bored of pointing out that "he has more sp than me" isn't a valid counterargument to them putting this in the game. Good thing that it wasn't used as an argument (counter or otherwise), then.
Quote:what difference will it actually make to the game when this is implemented? what, in-game, problem will this cause? It will cause the fundamental problem that you are now able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it.
It is bad on a design level (since it's the antithesis of design GÇö it actually disrupts mechanics), on a balance level (because it can't be balanced since it relies on cost as a restriction), and on a conceptual level (it doesn't actually solve any of the problems it's supposed to solve). Hell, just for good measure, I'd throw in that it's bad on a morale level too: it absolutely reeks of desperate last-ditch cash grab to hope that a handful of whales will splurge on their newfound ability to not let something as silly as core game design sit in the way of their grand ideas.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
138
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:32:36 -
[1759] - Quote
Orions Lord wrote:Dave Stark wrote:[quote=Tippia][quote=Dave Stark] i'm bored of pointing out that "he has more sp than me" isn't a valid counterargument to them putting this in the game.
my subway is getting cold so let's skip ahead a bit; what difference will it actually make to the game when this is implemented?
what, in-game, problem will this cause?
oh right, none. The eve fundamentals are lost this way. I like it that eve is hard I think it should stay this way. Also going from your T1 to T2 module is nice but it will feel great if you did something for it, in this case waiting for the skill to finish.
No one cares to understand that getting people speedy development creates a demand for high level content being easy. You will not make it clear until it happens.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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Dave Stark
7552
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:33:25 -
[1760] - Quote
Orions Lord wrote:The eve fundamentals are lost this way.
many have been over the yeras.
because strangely enough difficulty =/= fun.
unlocking t2 modules is as easy as opening your wallet and buying from the bazzar, some guy starting today and flying ahacs tomorrow isn't something that will only happen if this change happens - it already does happen. |
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2338
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:34:33 -
[1761] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:except the fundamentals really aren't being changed - anyone who wants a huge sp boost can already get one. GǪexcept for the fundamental fact that you can only acquire SP at a given maximum speed and that there is no way to inject a huge SP boost into a character. All you can do at the moment is continue to acquire SP at the same given maximum speed on yet another character GÇö one that offers no boost, or indeed any improvement whatsoever, to the character you already have. Pretending that is is anything other than a means to bypass game mechanics for cash is nothing short of moronic. If it were just a matter of adding some granularity to the character bazaar by allowing the trading of skills, you might have a point in it being a QoL upgrade (even though it suffers from many of the same problems), but they were far too lazy to do that, so instead we have this infinite mechanics-skipping abomination. i'm bored of pointing out that "he has more sp than me" isn't a valid counterargument to them putting this in the game. my subway is getting cold so let's skip ahead a bit; what difference will it actually make to the game when this is implemented? what, in-game, problem will this cause? oh right, none.
There is the bandwagon effect for anything the becomes FotM but beside that, I also fail to see what is the real problem with SP being accumulated faster. |
Dave Stark
7552
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:35:05 -
[1762] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i'm bored of pointing out that "he has more sp than me" isn't a valid counterargument to them putting this in the game. Good thing that it wasn't used as an argument (counter or otherwise), then. Quote:what difference will it actually make to the game when this is implemented? what, in-game, problem will this cause? It will cause the fundamental problem that you are now able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it. It is bad on a design level (since it's the antithesis of design GÇö it actually disrupts mechanics), on a balance level (because it can't be balanced since it relies on cost as a restriction), and on a conceptual level (it doesn't actually solve any of the problems it's supposed to solve). Hell, just for good measure, I'd throw in that it's bad on a morale level too: it absolutely reeks of desperate last-ditch cash grab to hope that a handful of whales will splurge on their newfound ability to not let something as silly as core game design sit in the way of their grand ideas.
subway was lukewarm - should have ate it in the store rather than bringing it home. c'est la vie.
nice list of buzzwords. now, what will happen in-game because of this change that isn't already happening? as yet you've listed nothing. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1678
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:35:05 -
[1763] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Lan Wang wrote:next up...aurum for jump fatigue steroids Also resculpt transmutator thingy to become a Spaceelf. You would look beautiful I could do a fabulous pose with a bow and arrow? It's a spaceelf silly, they have like laser bows or something. We can probably keep the tight clothing though.
What about naked spaceelf with lazor bows!
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Edward Olmops
DUST Expeditionary Team Good Sax
315
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:36:18 -
[1764] - Quote
There are more flaws/side effects.
The proposed changes would totally mess up the current training and attributes system. Future optimum training:
1. remap to +10 Per +4 Will 2. buy 2 learning implants to train PER/WILL at max speed 3. whenever you need anything else, just extract 500k XP and reinsert them into your own brain as 400k unallocated SP. Despite the loss, you still get more SP than when training with your weak attributes 4. dont care about attributes and remaps until you have at least 50mil SP
Bonus for PvP addicts:
train on character A on your account with 2 +5 implants. Then transfer SP to your combat char B who never wears expensive implants and has no active training queue. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
257
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:36:23 -
[1765] - Quote
ClanLogan wrote:This ranks right up there w/ the introduction of Aurum itself as a BAD idea. Oh, hey we can introduce a new currency just so we can screw around with the one that already actually works!
So much for real time skill training, or make that training at all. Now all you need is real cash, and the difference from buying **** on e-bay is what ?
Damn guys, you are making ELITE DANGEROUS look better and better as an alternative.
you would be right if you would not be wrong: there is no "real time skill training" in eve if you want to spend real cash, and it's been like that since forever; right now, an one day player can buy some plex with real cash, sell the plexes on the market and buy some 200 mil sp char; it will take him 2 days and allot of real cash
the only difference with the new system, is that more ppl will be able to use this system to bypass time, and this is not a wrong thing, in my opinion; instead of a small number of "rich" ppl using it atm, more line players will be able to use it. if you look at this proposed system from the new player side, you would realize it a win win situation: older players can get rid of unwanted sps, new players can get that "omg i need to get into that raven NAO! sps. everyone happy |
Terra Chrall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
54
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:36:48 -
[1766] - Quote
Mag's wrote:I'm still reeling from this. Shocked and disappointed, doesn't quite fit the bill right now. Then we have this: Quote:That part really hits home for me because when I made that jump from 15mil SP to 33mil SP I went from being called GÇÿTurbo DinosaurGÇÖ to being called GÇÿKil2GÇÖ. Puke. I also found out, after the fact, that Kil2 had been involved in some kind of corp theft which meant I had to deal with negative reputation issues for years afterwards. Seriously? Dude that's the whole point and why we don't mind the system. It comes with consequences. Now you want to remove them? What a joke. Part of the issue here is for many the consequences don't matter for others they would never want a character that was not their own. So the current system only caters to those that are okay or flat out don't care about having a character with no personal input. While those that do care have opted out of that system. This new proposal gives an opportunity for those that want their own personalized character. Of course a service that reset name and history of a character could open up the existing option to more people.
Though there are still that would rather boost a character they made from scratch. I don't know seems okay to me either way.
Most of the doomsday views on here are looking at it very extremely.
1) Some say this is adding pay to win to the game, but it is not much different than the character bazaar that already exists. So it is not adding it only expanding it. 2) We don't have pricing in yet, but I suspect it will be very expensive. This will make it impractical for many people. The type of person that would spend hundreds of RL $ to get ahead with this method would also use the bazaar so no net change from today. 3) The system is dependent on SP being removed from a character, this will limit availability. Yes people will make SP pooling alts to farm the SP off of. People already have SP alts that are training for the sole purpose of being sold on the bazaar. No net change. 4) It has diminished returns, again limiting the practicality of it it to raise SP to insane levels. The ratios are not set and could be more harsh or the brackets split up more to keep a better balance.
I can see why CCP looks at this as a similar feature to the Bazaar, it is only adding greater flexibility, and opening up the SP trade to many more players that would not have gotten into character selling/buying. |
Dave Stark
7553
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:38:07 -
[1767] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:except the fundamentals really aren't being changed - anyone who wants a huge sp boost can already get one. GǪexcept for the fundamental fact that you can only acquire SP at a given maximum speed and that there is no way to inject a huge SP boost into a character. All you can do at the moment is continue to acquire SP at the same given maximum speed on yet another character GÇö one that offers no boost, or indeed any improvement whatsoever, to the character you already have. Pretending that is is anything other than a means to bypass game mechanics for cash is nothing short of moronic. If it were just a matter of adding some granularity to the character bazaar by allowing the trading of skills, you might have a point in it being a QoL upgrade (even though it suffers from many of the same problems), but they were far too lazy to do that, so instead we have this infinite mechanics-skipping abomination. i'm bored of pointing out that "he has more sp than me" isn't a valid counterargument to them putting this in the game. my subway is getting cold so let's skip ahead a bit; what difference will it actually make to the game when this is implemented? what, in-game, problem will this cause? oh right, none. There is the bandwagon effect for anything the becomes FotM but beside that, I also fail to see what is the real problem with SP being accumulated faster.
i've been playing since like '11 or something. there's pretty much nothing subcap i can't fly (except 2 marauders and 2 blops, but i will by xmas). if i bothered to have a second account there'd probably be nothing capital i couldn't fly either.
the game has been out like 3 times longer than i've been playing. pcu is pretty low - characters are traded frequently. i don't think "fotm bandwaggoning" is that big of a deal. most people who are likely to jump on that bandwagon are already able to do so i'd imagine.
maybe not, however even if they aren't this proposal won't really enable fotm badwaggonigng as it's already there - the character bazzar. |
vikari
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Get Off My Lawn
137
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:41:48 -
[1768] - Quote
A lot of people are saying this would be no different then buying a character in the bazaar. These two mechanics have significant differences, and it's why many of us like what the bazaar offers over this proposed idea.
1. The current bazaar does not favor any demographic in Eve. Whether you played six months of seven years, the bazaar has the same options to you.
2. When you buy a character you get the flaws associated with it. Characters naturally will be more and more less focus the higher the SP. You can't find a 200m SP character that doesn't have something that is useless to the next buyer. This is a nice balance to the system. You get to jump ahead and not wait for the skillpoints but also you get stuck with stuff you don't want as balanced effect of that choice you made. Also toss in there that you lose the option to control the name, the KB history and corp history and it's a good balance.
3. This system opens up the recycling of characters with no loss. As of now if you want to destroy a character the SP is lost. You can sell it but ultimately there is still a history of the characters actions that the next person has to take on if they buy the toon. This system allows for easy rotation of characters in disregard for their history. The implications are bigger then one might see at first glance. Corp and alliance thefts are something people balance between the value of their character(s) and the money/assets available to them. For some their character is to important, they couldn't replace exactly that they have. This goes out the door, a name can be tossed to the wind and nothing is lose (unless the character has high SP, and in that case it can be spread out into two characters with little to no negative effect).
4. Some people selling their toon have strong association with that toon. They don't simply want to see the toon shelved. This systhem removes that from the game. There can be no long term legacy for characters. The ownership of them is degraded that of simple numbers and nothing more. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2165
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:43:22 -
[1769] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:except the fundamentals really aren't being changed - anyone who wants a huge sp boost can already get one. GǪexcept for the fundamental fact that you can only acquire SP at a given maximum speed and that there is no way to inject a huge SP boost into a character. All you can do at the moment is continue to acquire SP at the same given maximum speed on yet another character GÇö one that offers no boost, or indeed any improvement whatsoever, to the character you already have. Pretending that is is anything other than a means to bypass game mechanics for cash is nothing short of moronic. If it were just a matter of adding some granularity to the character bazaar by allowing the trading of skills, you might have a point in it being a QoL upgrade (even though it suffers from many of the same problems), but they were far too lazy to do that, so instead we have this infinite mechanics-skipping abomination. i'm bored of pointing out that "he has more sp than me" isn't a valid counterargument to them putting this in the game. my subway is getting cold so let's skip ahead a bit; what difference will it actually make to the game when this is implemented? what, in-game, problem will this cause? oh right, none. There is the bandwagon effect for anything the becomes FotM but beside that, I also fail to see what is the real problem with SP being accumulated faster. i've been playing since like '11 or something. there's pretty much nothing subcap i can't fly (except 2 marauders and 2 blops, but i will by xmas). if i bothered to have a second account there'd probably be nothing capital i couldn't fly either. the game has been out like 3 times longer than i've been playing. pcu is pretty low - characters are traded frequently. i don't think "fotm bandwaggoning" is that big of a deal. most people who are likely to jump on that bandwagon are already able to do so i'd imagine. maybe not, however even if they aren't this proposal won't really enable fotm badwaggonigng as it's already there - the character bazzar.
So when new hulls come out and the rich players can just auto-level them to IV/V - but poor people have to wait, you think that is healthy?
I'm actually indifferent to the proposals as I'm kinda losing interest at the moment - but there's a lot of bullshit and ignored negative consequences going around. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
257
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:45:11 -
[1770] - Quote
vikari wrote:A lot of people are saying this would be no different then buying a character in the bazaar. These two mechanics have significant differences, and it's why many of us like what the bazaar offers over this proposed idea.
1. The current bazaar does not favor any demographic in Eve. Whether you played six months of seven years, the bazaar has the same options to you.
2. When you buy a character you get the flaws associated with it. Characters naturally will be more and more less focus the higher the SP. You can't find a 200m SP character that doesn't have something that is useless to the next buyer. This is a nice balance to the system. You get to jump ahead and not wait for the skillpoints but also you get stuck with stuff you don't want as balanced effect of that choice you made. Also toss in there that you lose the option to control the name, the KB history and corp history and it's a good balance.
3. This system opens up the recycling of characters with no loss. As of now if you want to destroy a character the SP is lost. You can sell it but ultimately there is still a history of the characters actions that the next person has to take on if they buy the toon. This system allows for easy rotation of characters in disregard for their history. The implications are bigger then one might see at first glance. Corp and alliance thefts are something people balance between the value of their character(s) and the money/assets available to them. For some their character is to important, they couldn't replace exactly that they have. This goes out the door, a name can be tossed to the wind and nothing is lose (unless the character has high SP, and in that case it can be spread out into two characters with little to no negative effect).
4. Some people selling their toon have strong association with that toon. They don't simply want to see the toon shelved. This systhem removes that from the game. There can be no long term legacy for characters. The ownership of them is degraded that of simple numbers and nothing more. you realise that caracter bazar will not be removed, yes?
|
|
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
198
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:45:39 -
[1771] - Quote
I have decided to write a reply for what little good it will achieve.
For me this idea is awful. Here are my reasoning why:
Currently you can buy a character off my forums and have your form of 'p2w'. Yes this is true to an extent.
However, from a 'roleplay' perspective (I am not a roleplayer) this character has a history, you are not only buying that character but its history as well. Good or bad. This is a good thing. If you are that worried about it having a bad history you should research before purchasing. That character has had an influence of eve in some way, it is a part of the EVE storyline. I do not agree with having new characters created and the SP injected into it so it can have its own identity and your chosen name, especially at the cost of basically stripping any older character which does have a history. New characters should start at the beginning, they are new pilots, they should not instantly be able to fly whatever they want. They are at the start of their career, they are working towards and building something special.
I think even as a non roleplayer that it is a crime to pick apart old characters and strip them for parts.
Dont get me wrong, i am all for supporting new players into the game. I was a supporter of the starting SP being increased, i personally wanted it increased further and SP rewards given for completing the basic opportunities to not only give them SP but to help them learn the game at the same time. In my opinion this is a MUCH better alternative to just effectively buying SP.
As a 'bittervet' I acknowledge that you can buy characters off the forums, but you cant get a character thats above the max about of SP that could of been potentially trained for the 12 years off this game, now with this change i can afford to max SP several accounts. Is that a good thing? In my opinion no. Do i care how much it would cost me? No. This is now 'p2w' with no limit. You can argue that its better to have multiple characters, but id rather have the variety on my main and be maxed for every combat ship than having an alt for everything excluding ships that are for alt roles like cyno and links.
There are much better ways to help new players in this game. Please stop suggesting changes that ruin the history of the game, or at the cost of the older players. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26490
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:47:17 -
[1772] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:nice list of buzzwords. now, what will happen in-game because of this change that isn't already happening? as yet you've listed nothing. It will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it.
This is bad on a design level (since it's the antithesis of design GÇö it actually disrupts mechanics), on a balance level (because it can't be balanced since it relies on cost as a restriction), and on a conceptual level (it doesn't actually solve any of the problems it's supposed to solve). Hell, just for good measure, I'd throw in that it's bad on a morale level too: it absolutely reeks of desperate last-ditch cash grab to hope that a handful of whales will splurge on their newfound ability to not let something as silly as core game design sit in the way of their grand ideas.
In other words: try reading. The answer will not change and, more importantly, will not go away just because you refuse to acknowledge it for some absurd reason.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Laodell
Executable Inc.
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:47:55 -
[1773] - Quote
Quote: lol @ the idea of "hooray I did nothing except wait and I'm rewarded!!!!"
haha that's so insane.
After re-reading these threads I see one common theme coming from everyone that is in favor of the change.
Impatience.
This smacks of a younger generation that cannot tolerate being told to wait for something, or make a long term plan and execute on it. Like a spoiled little 9 year old demanding a smart phone from his parents.
It takes time to learn how to play in Eve well. It's been my observation that the time progression matches the abilities and inspirations of the players to 'improvise' or otherwise think of new and interesting tactics that they are capable of without jumping to 'fully capable' skills levels. Yes time *is* an accomplishment. I have played the game for 10 years and have had fun in the process and there's still things I look forward to being able to do.
If I could have done *everything* in the first year I would have gotten bored, and found another game to play.
Buying SP wouldn't encourage anyone to explore other ways of doing things. Why not just create chars with level 5 everything or remove the requirement for skill points entirely and let everyone fly or fit whatever they can afford? Because everyone would have done everything in the first year or tow, then will move on. Having never fully explored all that Eve has to offer. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
257
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:49:21 -
[1774] - Quote
afkalt wrote: So when new hulls come out and the rich players can just auto-level them to IV/V - but poor people have to wait, you think that is healthy?
I'm actually indifferent to the proposals as I'm kinda losing interest at the moment - but there's a lot of bullshit and ignored negative consequences going around.
.
so they will pend allot of isk/cash to be able to fly a ship 15' minutes/several days faster that me... so what? i don't really care as long as i'm also able to fly it 2 days later |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
141
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:49:45 -
[1775] - Quote
The other misfortune of democracy: The "group idiocracy" that people who develops one thing is diverting from another which is not their concern. People who makes space barbie fashion has nothing to do with skills and balance. If the people were not doing space barbie outfits, they would not be contributing to the team doing skill drug dealing. Oranges and apples.
I dont really mind people's efforts to make prettier avatars or nice cozy quarters because it is matter of "I dont use it, it does not affect me". The bullshit of incarna bashing is not the same as skill sales bashing. Having CQs or WiS wont change the level of experience needed to fight NPCs or use Ships.
You want a simple example ? In old times, there were the need of clever alignment and clever placement or else you would not be able to outmaneuver your foe. Somehow at one point a CCP person spoke about controls and ui and hinted that could change. Contrary to the well already established reason as to why you cant steer ships like a minivan, now you actually can steer you ship just like a minivan. No placement or right alignment is need to outmaneuver your foe.
Other examples ?
- There was a time when you had to think of what you doing as to it would constitute aggression or not. Criminal mindset awareness was removed by adding safety setting. - All the fitting thingy. There was a time when you could build fits freely and modules were somehow a matter of adapting your ship to your playstyle. Today you have tons of modules balanced in a way you can only be viable to fit a given ship in a certain given restricted number of ways. You cannot just make yourself a floating brick for tanking, as there is no placement for that style. Does not matter if people do that by mistake, I want to do it and I am restrict from doing it because idiots do it for the wrong reasons ?
That is the future of putting just anyone in ships and places they are not ready for. After you put them there, you cant remove them from there, so you have to change the place, not the person, to accommodate your ill conceived idea.
Bazaar already does it, and that is bad. A Bazaar on steroids will be Xanadu.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Dave Stark
7553
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:49:54 -
[1776] - Quote
afkalt wrote:So when new hulls come out and the rich players can just auto-level them to IV/V - but poor people have to wait, you think that is healthy? I can't roll up to the bazaar and grab a decent pilot for a new hull they day they release. I can with this proposal.
I'm actually indifferent to the proposals as I'm kinda losing interest at the moment - but there's a lot of bullshit and ignored negative consequences going around.
this is actually the first sensible argument i've seen.
for some one like me, it's 50k per packet. that's what., 300 packets for 1.5m sp? which is what recon V is.
or it's like a month to get it to V (so, not even that long). getting it to IV takes about a week at most... so it'll basically be trained by the weekend when i can play.
unless the new ship type has insane bonuses like 500%/level... i wouldn't be that worried about it as i'd be flying an IV skilled ship vs a V skilled ship.
" but poor people have to wait, you think that is healthy?"
opposed to currently where new people have to wait - or drop cash on it.
in your hypothetical we're just replacing "new people" with "poor people". who would you rather see left out in the cold? |
Commander IceQ
Wet Soap Guard
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:50:40 -
[1777] - Quote
I am with the 'NO' crowd in this. Though as some I have a few skills I would love to re-allocate the sp of, I do not support this.
I do support rofflesausage, his suggestions answers your concerns in a more way that better supports the game:
rofflesausage wrote:Overly complex for what should actually be possible:
- Name changes - the 'reputation' reason is total nonsense, given you can simply buy / sell a character anyway. Simply have a 'previously known as' tab in the show info for that character.
- Character SP reallocation - Made a mistake? Want a new direction? Pay to do so. Same SP amount. Limited on the number of times per year.
Trading SP across characters I'm not a fan of, certainly not with the diminishing returns aspect. I'd much rather the focus be on letting new players gain / start with more SP. As for the actual character trading - give people the ability to turn a character into an in game item. It should be tradable, be subject to the normal scam rules, and destroyable like any item in the game. Are these 'Transneural Skill Packets' normal items that can be destroyed in game? Like PLEX? The rename I SO want and WILL use. The SP Re-allocation... see my 1st line. So even I might use that. The last (making char a tradeable item) seems fine to me... even I may use it.
Create contract with char, throw in a name change to sweeten the deal.
I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.
|
Dave Stark
7553
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:51:07 -
[1778] - Quote
Tippia wrote:It will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it.
and the issues arising from having more SP than your max allowed based on your character age is?
you've still not outlined a single issue. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2166
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:51:54 -
[1779] - Quote
No, currently EVERYONE has to wait.
The same for T3 skill loss.
This alters that.
Good/bad, I shall leave to others. But it is a fundamental change and one not currently provided by existing services. |
Dave Stark
7553
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:53:19 -
[1780] - Quote
afkalt wrote:No, currently EVERYONE has to wait.
only within the first what, month? of a new skill being released. |
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ArmyOfMe
Hull Breach. Outnumbered.
469
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:54:17 -
[1781] - Quote
I know, lets make a NPE offer of letting everyone start with 200m sp for only a 100$, would probably get tons of new players then. Problem solved for ccp as they would make tons of new income, and get rid of all bitter vets at the same time.
QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
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Orions Lord
NeoCom Systems
18
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:55:08 -
[1782] - Quote
I will just sell my 1 month earned skill points maybe with some isk farming. If I can do that for my 3 accounts I am ok with it. I have my skilled characters and am fine with that.
Plex will go sky-high I am not sure if the players that farm for plex will stay in the game.
So for me personally this would be an financial gain but this has nothing to do with the game itself. This way eve will be a huge farming game 2 ways isk and sp.
|
Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
79
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:56:20 -
[1783] - Quote
So much for Eve.... |
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
209
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:57:36 -
[1784] - Quote
Edward Olmops wrote: There are more flaws/side effects.
The proposed changes would totally mess up the current training and attributes system. Future optimum training:
1. remap to +10 Per +4 Will 2. buy 2 learning implants to train PER/WILL at max speed 3. whenever you need anything else, just extract 500k XP and reinsert them into your own brain as 400k unallocated SP. Despite the loss, you still get more SP than when training with your weak attributes 4. dont care about attributes and remaps until you have at least 50mil SP
Bonus for PvP addicts:
train on character A on your account with 2 +5 implants. Then transfer SP to your combat char B who never wears expensive implants and has no active training queue.
The extractor thingy's won't be free, they'll definitely be sufficiently expensive that this won't be feasible the market will make sure of that.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25735
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:58:06 -
[1785] - Quote
CSM folks who oppose the change, or anyone else who's against it.
Can you point me to a cogent argument not using subjective buzzwords like "pay to win" why this change is bad?
And I wish I could shout you out
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Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:58:27 -
[1786] - Quote
CCP should instead start renting solar systems themselves. That would be a much less impactant way of rising cash quickly.
So I pay like 3 plex month and I have my very own wormhole with a couple NPCs to patrol it like a "mini me concord".
Space Garrison.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Laodell
Executable Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:58:42 -
[1787] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:Lan Wang wrote:next up...aurum for jump fatigue steroids Next on New Eden Store **Race** Donation Fund - Earn you +1 Standing rise with **Race** Then we know it is the end of times. the possibilities are endless
Since we are getting stupid about this lets explore that direction:
While we are at it why not add trans-gendered pilots and make other physical defects available. Lets get a wheelchair or walker option for the older pilots. We have scars why not amputee's and birth defects?
[ Sarcasm ] I see so many micro-aggressions in character creation alone [ /Sarcasm ] |
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1318
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:59:37 -
[1788] - Quote
Malou Hashur wrote:You all know that none of this matters, right ?
They have made up their mind and will bring it in regardless of how sh!t it is..
You clearly weren't around for the Marauder pass then where feedback was taken on-board and listened to along with a lot of other threads on UI, Balance passes, Module Tiercide?
Nope, didn't think so. I'll reserve my judgement on this proposed change if it ever comes in it whether they listened or not and then act accordingly.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26495
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:00:45 -
[1789] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:and the issues arising from having more SP than your max allowed based on your character age is? The main issue is that you have to move the goalposts since you can't actually argue against the fundamental problem that this proposal creates.
You knowGǪ how it will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it. That is an issue in and of itself.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25735
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:01:17 -
[1790] - Quote
Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?
Please list them.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
53
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:03:22 -
[1791] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i'm bored of pointing out that "he has more sp than me" isn't a valid counterargument to them putting this in the game. Good thing that it wasn't used as an argument (counter or otherwise), then. Quote:what difference will it actually make to the game when this is implemented? what, in-game, problem will this cause? It will cause the fundamental problem that you are now able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it. It is bad on a design level (since it's the antithesis of design GÇö it actually disrupts mechanics), on a balance level (because it can't be balanced since it relies on cost as a restriction), and on a conceptual level (it doesn't actually solve any of the problems it's supposed to solve). Hell, just for good measure, I'd throw in that it's bad on a morale level too: it absolutely reeks of desperate last-ditch cash grab to hope that a handful of whales will splurge on their newfound ability to not let something as silly as core game design sit in the way of their grand ideas. subway was lukewarm - should have ate it in the store rather than bringing it home. c'est la vie. nice list of buzzwords. now, what will happen in-game because of this change that isn't already happening? as yet you've listed nothing.
Going this direction, the game will die. I have wrote numerous reasons why, feel free to read them.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Laodell
Executable Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:03:56 -
[1792] - Quote
Bantara wrote:Orions Lord wrote:I have enough on this pvp character so if I sell 1 mont earned skill point does that equal me an plex. Then eve will be free to play for me.
I am sure CCP would love that loss of income. Someone had to buy the PLEX. They lose no money. Don't be this way.
You can make enough ISK in game to purchase a PLEX without having to ever touch cash. Eve can be free to play if you can make more than a billion isk a month. Which happens.
I am sure the mining-bot account holders will love this feature. Less time required to get to their optimal training and harvesting. |
Dave Stark
7553
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:04:16 -
[1793] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:and the issues arising from having more SP than your max allowed based on your character age is? The main issue is that you have to move the goalposts since you can't actually argue against the fundamental problem that this proposal creates. You knowGǪ how it will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it. That is an issue in and of itself.
i haven't moved the goalposts once.
not that it matters if i did, you haven't provided a single reason why this idea is bad other than "now you can get more sp on a character than the theoretical maximum based on character DOB".
just name an issue this will cause players in game? is it really that hard? (guess it is since you've failed to do it 3 times now). |
Jeff Kione
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:05:41 -
[1794] - Quote
Hi CCP,
I think the proposed system isn't terrible. The fundamentals behind it seem to be not significantly different than the character bazaar, with the main difference being that you can keep your in-game identity instead of having to assume someone else's. This is a strong disincentive of the current character bazaar that keeps most people who have already established a character identity from "paying to win" - and this is a good thing, as strong ties to character identity probably contributes to player retention. Similarly, you'll probably want a similar disincentive for the new system; perhaps not having only an 80% penalty for such a wide range of SP levels.
The only point that I would raise is that I think you should be careful how you market this to new players. Right now, someone who wants to skip right into a "powerful" character will Google "buy Eve character" and find the character bazaar. No one necessarily points them that way, as these are the same people who would buy a character off of Ebay if they could. To this extent, the system isn't marketed to players but it is available - something that I think is the best of both worlds.
If you market the SP packets to new players, you might have some newer players drawing links between the SP packets and freemium pay walls that exist in time-gated games. You know, "why wait to train those support skills when you could undock right now with them for only $x.xx". Specifically, I think you want to avoid implying that skill training is a time gate +á la freemium games, as that could turn people off.
I think with stronger disincentives for higher SP players (as I mentioned before - step up the penalties quicker), you could market the SP packets as more of an initial optional "boost" to avoid some of the initial hardships of the game. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
257
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:06:14 -
[1795] - Quote
Tippia wrote:gascanu wrote:no, the training speed for me is the time needed to get the isk used to pay for the char No. That is not your training speed. None of that affects how quickly your character acquires SP (other than if you use the SP to buy implants). If you buy a character from the bazaar, no mechanics are skipped because your character is still acquiring SP at a maximum of 2700 SP/h GÇö same as always. All that's happening is that you are training a different character at that speed than you, personally, did yesterday. Players do not exist in-game, and are not subject to game mechanics. Their characters are. You are talking about the speed at which a player gains access to a high-SP character, which no game mechanics exist to regulate since we are talking about a player. At most, there is the EULA, but that's nto a game mechanic. What the player can access should not be confused with how quickly a character can gain a high amount of SP, which is something that is regulated by game mechanics since characters exist within the game. Player GÇö character access GÇö EULA. Character GÇö SP acquisition GÇö game mechanics. Do not confuse the two.
dude take a break and relax a bit:
i, new player jinx buy plex>sell plex>buy one 200 mil caracter on the bazar, i can have that 200 mil char in 2 days; for me that is MY trainig speed, 2 days, what you trying to tell with overcomplicated mathematics about sps/h is just dust in the wind; also, if you like to talk about sp/h, you forget to add that noone is buying this new sps packs without someone selling them after training them; so while some chars will go up in sps, others will go down, with the new system total average sps will actually go down, so in fact the max 2700sp/h will go down on average and so on and so on... it's easy: instead of buying one 100 mil sp char you can now buy how many " sps packs" you need to get your char to 100 mil if you really want that 100 mil char... |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:06:28 -
[1796] - Quote
That is exactly the problem.
See. Someone get to the thread, without the will to read it through, then make an assumption that the issue can be summarised in a couple sentences. It is done regardless of how dismissive it is. So in no time we have a complex idea reduced to two pairs of sentences that dont even explain the idea itself. People like, do it.
One year later people is complaining that EVE is not the game they thought it was because all the people said it was a complex game requiring actual gameplay.
I still remember the guy ragequitting because he watched butterfly effect movie and thought that was eve. Well, that was eve. Before people started to demanding stupid balancing and solo play enhancement. You want solo play, you will never have butterfly effect by using solo play.
Well, you will never have clever mechanics when 1 week old players have access to capital ships.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
ArmyOfMe
Hull Breach. Outnumbered.
472
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:06:38 -
[1797] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?
Please list them.
This thread is 90 pages long, if you havnt found a single argument against this yet, then i suspect the problem is with your reading abillites, and not anywhere else.
QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
406
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:07:21 -
[1798] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?
Please list them.
There you go and without buzzwords "pay to win":
Tippia wrote:This is bad on a design level (since it's the antithesis of design GÇö it actually disrupts mechanics), on a balance level (because it can't be balanced since it relies on cost as a restriction), and on a conceptual level (it doesn't actually solve any of the problems it's supposed to solve). Hell, just for good measure, I'd throw in that it's bad on a morale level too: it absolutely reeks of desperate last-ditch cash grab to hope that a handful of whales will splurge on their newfound ability to not let something as silly as core game design sit in the way of their grand ideas.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
54
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:07:56 -
[1799] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: CSM folks who oppose the change, or anyone else who's against it.
Can you point me to a cogent argument not using subjective buzzwords like "pay to win" why this change is bad?
Read topic?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Janeos
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
73
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:08:30 -
[1800] - Quote
Liquefying our enemies after the Goonmass crushes their will to fight is going to be so, so satisfying. Permadeath has arrived, y'all! |
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Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming The Bastion
126
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:09:18 -
[1801] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:and the issues arising from having more SP than your max allowed based on your character age is? The main issue is that you have to move the goalposts since you can't actually argue against the fundamental problem that this proposal creates. You knowGǪ how it will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it. That is an issue in and of itself.
Or i could skip it by buying a whole pilot, lock, stock, and barrel from the bazaar. With plex that I paid cash for. So, this isn't any kind of earth-shattering development from that perspective. The only difference is that instead of paying tens of Billions of ISK (derived from plex sales) for a whole pilot at one time I instead pay smaller amounts at one time to touch up my existing pilot(s) |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25737
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:09:34 -
[1802] - Quote
Skill points aren't holy. All the arguments against this change make the assumption that somehow the choices you made during skill training are somehow a permanent mark on the character.
Not everyone agrees with that assumption. Making skill points modular removes another barrier of inaccessibility to the game.
And I wish I could shout you out
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
54
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:09:51 -
[1803] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:and the issues arising from having more SP than your max allowed based on your character age is? The main issue is that you have to move the goalposts since you can't actually argue against the fundamental problem that this proposal creates. You knowGǪ how it will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it. That is an issue in and of itself. i haven't moved the goalposts once. not that it matters if i did, you haven't provided a single reason why this idea is bad other than "now you can get more sp on a character than the theoretical maximum based on character DOB". just name an issue this will cause players in game? is it really that hard? (guess it is since you've failed to do it 3 times now).
There are plenty of posts with different solid arguments, yet you avoided to reply on any of those...
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2029
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:10:30 -
[1804] - Quote
Laodell wrote:While we are at it why not add trans-gendered pilots and make other physical defects available. Lets get a wheelchair or walker option for the older pilots. We have scars why not amputee's and birth defects? Sure, but these things, just like this skill-point transfer, should available ingame and not to be purchased for extra money.
Laodell wrote:After re-reading these threads I see one common theme coming from everyone that is in favor of the change.
Impatience. ... If I could have done *everything* in the first year I would have gotten bored, and found another game to play. You can give up, patience is out these days. Everyone is conditioned towards impatience and I Need My Stuff Now.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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Nervon
HaveItYourWay Corp
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:10:43 -
[1805] - Quote
Just my 2 cents...
Make this like the current remap, you can only extract skill points so many times a year or add skill points.
Example: New players start with X Skill-add points from the start All other players will only receive Y skill-add/Skill-extract points a year
If you are wanting to fix the Character Bazaar -Allow people to make changes after purchase. -first time you start with the tune, you are allowed (for a cost...) to change the name and for an additional fee... move a percentage of the skill points around -Only the skill books already inserted can be increased and the books that you reduce to zero stay inserted....
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Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
146
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:11:05 -
[1806] - Quote
Janeos wrote:Liquefying our enemies after the Goonmass crushes their will to fight is going to be so, so satisfying. Permadeath has arrived, y'all!
Yeah, like, ganked by an army of Mastery V Tech 3 Destroyer alts created "last week" paid in bulk.
That will be really fun to watch.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25737
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:11:37 -
[1807] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?
Please list them.
There you go and without buzzwords "pay to win": Tippia wrote:This is bad on a design level (since it's the antithesis of design GÇö it actually disrupts mechanics), on a balance level (because it can't be balanced since it relies on cost as a restriction), and on a conceptual level (it doesn't actually solve any of the problems it's supposed to solve). Hell, just for good measure, I'd throw in that it's bad on a morale level too: it absolutely reeks of desperate last-ditch cash grab to hope that a handful of whales will splurge on their newfound ability to not let something as silly as core game design sit in the way of their grand ideas.
All I see from Tippia is adjectives and buzzwords. It's not an argument so much as it is an opinion.. and a very subjective one.
Tippia please back up your statement with why's.
And I wish I could shout you out
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epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1777
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:11:49 -
[1808] - Quote
deezy 1dabest wrote:I just wanted to say that overall I support this idea.
It is really a huge improvement on character trading while also creating a huge SP sink once you have done it a certain number of times.
It will give dummies like me the chance to fly around in things we really should not be flying to give out some sweet kill mails to the real PVPers running around.
I see what people are saying about an issue with not being able to guess a persons SP by tapping their name in local but I would call that for the better. I remember in my first few months being very harshly targeted specifically for my low age. I may have come out better on the other side of dealing with that but that is not changed here. The only difference is those pirates could end up being the easy target when they jump in on someone who has dumped in a load of cash.
Only flying what you can afford to lose will take on a whole new meaning when newbies in battleships go where they should not be and get wiped out by a small group of players that actually know what they are doing with their SP.
With all that being said I do see people feeling like this significantly demeans their SP investment but there is much more that comes from growing your assets and abilities over time than just being able to sport a flashy ship that would take newbies a year or more to get.
Just my 2 ISK that will get quickly overlooked.
o7
Just curious, Why do you feel a Skillpoint sink is either a good thing or desired by CCP?
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
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Torei Dutalis
IceBox Inc.
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:11:53 -
[1809] - Quote
Edward Olmops wrote: There are more flaws/side effects.
The proposed changes would totally mess up the current training and attributes system. Future optimum training:
1. remap to +10 Per +4 Will 2. buy 2 learning implants to train PER/WILL at max speed 3. whenever you need anything else, just extract 500k XP and reinsert them into your own brain as 400k unallocated SP. Despite the loss, you still get more SP than when training with your weak attributes 4. dont care about attributes and remaps until you have at least 50mil SP
This kind of behavior is more "worrisome" to me than buying skill points from other players. But I think it also outlines the fact that the current attribute system is hardly optimal. Implants and attributes only create "relevant" game play decisions for players that engage in "risky" types of PvP. As we know, a majority of players do not even make the actually relevant decision of high-grade pirate implants or +5s as they never PvP.
Players with money will always be able to acquire high skill pointed characters regardless of the current system or a new system (unless the new system forbade character selling). However, this proposed system allows for a greater "concentration" of skill points. A side effect of the above quoted material is that alts can now be effectively combined into a single character without interaction with the player market at all. Of course this is predicated upon the costs of the skill stripping item, but there is significant enough concern that a single player will be able to partake in this type of activity at very little financial cost.
A majority of people are concerned (at least from my perspective) due to the fact that a system like this proposed one will severely devalue older and more focused characters as well as (potentially) break down the stratified knowledge/skillpoint hierarchy that exists. I must admit that as a long time player with very advanced characters (skill point wise) I am personally unphased by this in regards to the effect it will have on my personally.
If this idea is truly aimed at new player retention and development then I believe that skillpoints are not the area to focus on, but rather on developing the environment in which new players operate. Eve's culture of a player developed and controlled environment has created some truly wonderful things, but it has also created an incredibly steep learning curve and some incredibly toxic portions of the game (player wise). Engaging new players should revolve around overcoming (to some degree) the massive amount of information that a person is required to learn, and in enabling new players to participate in a variety of activities that offer them the ability to contribute in a meaningful fashion. I think there is already plenty of framework in place for this, but a greater focus on corporations for new players is a great way to shift the burden off of the game itself and to use the player base to help with this issue.
Essentially, without devoting a serious amount of thought to this particular proposal, I think that there are far too many unintended and potentially negative outcomes to warrant its implementation if the major points it is addressing are the new player experience and the lacking elements of the character bazaar. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
54
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:12:17 -
[1810] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: Skill points aren't holy. All the arguments against this change make the assumption that somehow the choices you made during skill training are somehow a permanent mark on the character.
Not everyone agrees with that assumption. Making skill points modular removes another barrier of inaccessibility to the game.
Took you 8 mins to read whole topic and thing about all arguments mentioned and come up with such conclusion. Impressive!
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
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Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
209
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:12:19 -
[1811] - Quote
vikari wrote:A lot of people are saying this would be no different then buying a character in the bazaar. These two mechanics have significant differences, and it's why many of us like what the bazaar offers over this proposed idea.
1. The current bazaar does not favor any demographic in Eve. Whether you played six months of seven years, the bazaar has the same options to you.
2. When you buy a character you get the flaws associated with it. Characters naturally will be more and more less focus the higher the SP. You can't find a 200m SP character that doesn't have something that is useless to the next buyer. This is a nice balance to the system. You get to jump ahead and not wait for the skillpoints but also you get stuck with stuff you don't want as balanced effect of that choice you made. Also toss in there that you lose the option to control the name, the KB history and corp history and it's a good balance.
3. This system opens up the recycling of characters with no loss. As of now if you want to destroy a character the SP is lost. You can sell it but ultimately there is still a history of the characters actions that the next person has to take on if they buy the toon. This system allows for easy rotation of characters in disregard for their history. The implications are bigger then one might see at first glance. Corp and alliance thefts are something people balance between the value of their character(s) and the money/assets available to them. For some their character is to important, they couldn't replace exactly that they have. This goes out the door, a name can be tossed to the wind and nothing is lose (unless the character has high SP, and in that case it can be spread out into two characters with little to no negative effect).
4. Some people selling their toon have strong association with that toon. They don't simply want to see the toon shelved. This systhem removes that from the game. There can be no long term legacy for characters. The ownership of them is degraded that of simple numbers and nothing more.
1. So does the proposed new system, but not a lot of new players even know the character bazaar exists and they don't know how much they should be paying for their toons either.
2. The higher SP your toon has the less effect the skill pack will have.
3. there will be loss, the extractors won't be free, if they're bought with aur they'll probably be quite expensive so there will be loss. As for corp theft you can do that now and sell the character on the bazaar then use the isk to buy a clean one.
4. really who cares about this stuff?
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12672
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:12:25 -
[1812] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?
Please list them.
So you aren't reading Tippia's posts?
|
Dave Stark
7554
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:13:12 -
[1813] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:yet you avoided to reply on any of those...
no i haven't.
the only solid argument so far has been people paying to hit V in a skill that was released only yesterday - which is only an issue for like, a month. which is a trivially small amount of time. |
Wendrika Hydreiga
521
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:13:25 -
[1814] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?
Please list them.
I can only see advantages that would benefit me in the short and long term. Sorry!
However! I can see myself using Skill Packets to dismember characters I don't use instead of just biomass them after liquidating my assets. And also, it would also mean that getting optimal skills for say, exploration or Faction Warfare, would be feasible in a very short window of time, weeks instead of months or years.
In terms of Faction War though, I could see that actually flying Tech 2 module stuff with perfect skills would be the benchmark everyone would feel obligated to pursue, since even a newbie could achieve that within a short time by using the ISK they make to invest in skills, even maybe throw a PLEX or two in the game for funding skills. It would go as far as being an obligation to have perfect skills to even engage in content, but it would kinda be better than what happens now. Having skills or not, you either do the content with what you have, or you don't.
In the end, it would mean this game would be even more about being a skilled player than having a lot of SP. My Worm could have on paper perfect performance, but since I am not that good of a pilot, it would amount to nothing.
If that's good or bad, I can't really say. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25737
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:14:12 -
[1815] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Sibyyl wrote: Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?
Please list them.
So you aren't reading Tippia's posts?
I read them. I don't see reasons against, just opinions.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25737
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:15:29 -
[1816] - Quote
Wendy, skills don't make you a better player. They never have.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Edward Olmops
DUST Expeditionary Team Good Sax
315
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:15:38 -
[1817] - Quote
Edward Olmops wrote: There are more flaws/side effects.
The proposed changes would totally mess up the current training and attributes system. Future optimum training:
1. remap to +10 Per +4 Will 2. buy 2 learning implants to train PER/WILL at max speed 3. whenever you need anything else, just extract 500k XP and reinsert them into your own brain as 400k unallocated SP. Despite the loss, you still get more SP than when training with your weak attributes 4. dont care about attributes and remaps until you have at least 50mil SP
Bonus for PvP addicts:
train on character A on your account with 2 +5 implants. Then transfer SP to your combat char B who never wears expensive implants and has no active training queue.
Hum. I am still trying to be constructive.
How about: 1. scrap the idea with the extractors. Only when biomassing a character you get the option of paying 1 PLEX (like character transfer) for "Advanced Biomassing". You get one final Lossmail sent to your account e-mail address so you can post it on killboards. A character biomassed in this way has a chance to drop skills (say in the form of those transneural packages) and SKIN licenses. Loot appears in your redeeming system. Everyone con salute the lossmail. o7 2. skill packages only apply SP over time at a fixed rate, multiple packages only increase duration. Max training speed with this method is roughly twice normal perfect speed. No extreme exploits by insta recreating characters. 3. while we are at it, please decouple training from PvP by making Learning Implants like timed attribute boosters that cannot be lost via podkill. Dont touch creation process, just make them like +4 intelligence (30 days) - exactly like pirate SKINs. Pirate implants just lose their attribute bonus. While this is a flat nerf on paper, its actually a buff since they dont block the valuable slots 1-5 for learning anymore. No one will worry about too expensive learning clones anymore before undocking -> more action, more explosions. Consumption rate of implants can be set indepentendly, because items will be timed (good for market/economy). |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26501
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:15:55 -
[1818] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i haven't moved the goalposts once. GǪexcept for the time when you moved them from the actual issue to a completely different one once you figured that you couldn't respond to the issue as stated.
Quote:not that it matters if i did, you haven't provided a single reason why this idea is bad other than "now you can get more sp on a character than the theoretical maximum based on character DOB". Wrong on both accounts. Not only have I provided a reason GÇö that reason has nothing to do with your strawman. In fact, I even said the exact opposite of what you try to describe as a problem. Had you not been so hysterically insistent that I must have said exactly what you've dreamed up, you would have noticed this, since I've said it twice now.
Quote:just name an issue this will cause players in game? It will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it. Just because you have utterly failed to address this problem three times does not mean I haven't provided it.
gascanu wrote:dude take a break and relax a bit:
i, new player jinx buy plex>sell plex>buy one 200 mil caracter on the bazar, i can have that 200 mil char in 2 days; for me that is MY trainig speed, 2 days, what you trying to tell with overcomplicated mathematics about sps/h is just dust in the wind; You, as a player, do not have a training speed. Your character does. Under the current system, you character can only acquire SP at a maximum rate of 2700 SP/h. It does not matter if you groom it personally from a pup or if you scam some bittervet on the bazaar GÇö the limit for acquiring SP on a character is 2700 SP/h. The mechanics make it so.
The proposal changes this so that, by paying for it, this mechanical limitation no longer applies; that there is no upper limit for how much SP your character can acquire in a given time (short of running out of skills at 450-and-a-bit million SP).
Quote:it's easy: instead of buying one 100 mil sp char you can now buy how many " sps packs" you need to get your char to 100 mil if you really want that 100 mil char... Yes, it is very easy: one way of doing that means that the game mechanics that restrict how quickly SP can accumulate on a character have been followed; the other means that those mechanics have been rendered irrelevantGǪ but only for those who pay.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12674
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:16:19 -
[1819] - Quote
Urziel99 wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:and the issues arising from having more SP than your max allowed based on your character age is? The main issue is that you have to move the goalposts since you can't actually argue against the fundamental problem that this proposal creates. You knowGǪ how it will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it. That is an issue in and of itself. Or i could skip it by buying a whole pilot, lock, stock, and barrel from the bazaar. With plex that I paid cash for. So, this isn't any kind of earth-shattering development from that perspective. The only difference is that instead of paying tens of Billions of ISK (derived from plex sales) for a whole pilot at one time I instead pay smaller amounts at one time to touch up my existing pilot(s)
You buy a whole character warts and all, including a usually stupid name. And buying that character doesn't break things on other characters.
Peo0le thinking this is somehow good for 'accessibility' and 'new players' haven't learned the lessons the EVe experience has taught us for the last 12 years. CCP keeps making these kinds of mistakes because they see unwise feedback such as those in support of this change (while ignoring 'negative' feedback, only to learn later on that there was a reason for the negative feedback).
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Bed Bugg
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:16:57 -
[1820] - Quote
This is a skillpoint sink
In a game with too many faucets, it is nice to see a sink.
Thumbs up on this CCP! |
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
407
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:18:06 -
[1821] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Wendy, skills don't make you a better player. They never have. Why make and option to buy SP, then?
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25738
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:18:29 -
[1822] - Quote
Jenn, it's good for all players not just new ones. Now I can customize my skills however I want without arbitrary restrictions on backing them out.
Why are these existing arbitrary restrictions against backing out skills good?
And I wish I could shout you out
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Dave Stark
7556
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:18:39 -
[1823] - Quote
Tippia wrote:except for the time when you moved them from the actual issue to a completely different one once you figured that you couldn't respond to the issue as stated.
what? i haven't moved anything dude - you've still yet to state a single issue this will cause. other than the aforementioned "you can get more sp than your char age allows" stuff. which isn't an issue by the way.
you could... you know, just point out an issue. |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
149
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:18:54 -
[1824] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Sibyyl wrote: Skill points aren't holy. All the arguments against this change make the assumption that somehow the choices you made during skill training are somehow a permanent mark on the character.
Not everyone agrees with that assumption. Making skill points modular removes another barrier of inaccessibility to the game.
Took you 8 mins to read whole topic and thing about all arguments mentioned and come up with such conclusion. Impressive!
That is preciselly why letting people instajump into end game content is a bad idea.
Get people to just insta jump into content they are not ready for, forming a "majority" to demand changes ingame that would be not need should the players had been better prepared to be at that level.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25738
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:20:11 -
[1825] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Wendy, skills don't make you a better player. They never have. Why make and option to buy SP, then?
Skills give you access to more game features and improve the performance of your ship.
They don't make you a better pilot, however.
And I wish I could shout you out
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25738
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:21:10 -
[1826] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Sibyyl wrote: Skill points aren't holy. All the arguments against this change make the assumption that somehow the choices you made during skill training are somehow a permanent mark on the character.
Not everyone agrees with that assumption. Making skill points modular removes another barrier of inaccessibility to the game.
Took you 8 mins to read whole topic and thing about all arguments mentioned and come up with such conclusion. Impressive! That is preciselly why letting people instajump into end game content is a bad idea. Get people to just insta jump into content they are not ready for, forming a "majority" to demand changes ingame that would be not need should the players had been better prepared to be at that level.
People can use the character bazaar today. Your argument is invalid.
And I wish I could shout you out
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
58
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:21:24 -
[1827] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:yet you avoided to reply on any of those... no i haven't. the only solid argument so far has been people paying to hit V in a skill that was released only yesterday - which is only an issue for like, a month. which is a trivially small amount of time.
If you do not have basic understanding you should avoid discussions then. Every single valid argument you have avoided to counter argument by stating "those are not real arguments"?
Well if they are so weak why not answer to the challenge and bury the challengers? Though I assume the real goal you are after is spam/troll so it is our mistake for even considering you for worthy participant in the discussion.
I hope you will have nothing against me quoting every post you made and doing the same to you.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Bantara
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:22:42 -
[1828] - Quote
Laodell wrote:Bantara wrote:Orions Lord wrote:I have enough on this pvp character so if I sell 1 mont earned skill point does that equal me an plex. Then eve will be free to play for me. I am sure CCP would love that loss of income. Someone had to buy the PLEX. They lose no money. Don't be this way. You can make enough ISK in game to purchase a PLEX without having to ever touch cash. Eve can be free to play if you can make more than a billion isk a month. Which happens. I am sure the mining-bot account holders will love this feature. Less time required to get to their optimal training and harvesting.
Don't join the stupid wagon. PLEX only enter the game when someone spends RL money. They don't appear out of thin air.
edit add: unless they changed that while I wasn't looking. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25738
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:23:06 -
[1829] - Quote
Don ZOLA replying with "no u" is not a good strategy for argumentation.
Please try again.
And I wish I could shout you out
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
149
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:23:28 -
[1830] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Sibyyl wrote: Skill points aren't holy. All the arguments against this change make the assumption that somehow the choices you made during skill training are somehow a permanent mark on the character.
Not everyone agrees with that assumption. Making skill points modular removes another barrier of inaccessibility to the game.
Took you 8 mins to read whole topic and thing about all arguments mentioned and come up with such conclusion. Impressive! That is preciselly why letting people instajump into end game content is a bad idea. Get people to just insta jump into content they are not ready for, forming a "majority" to demand changes ingame that would be not need should the players had been better prepared to be at that level. People can use the character bazaar today. Your argument is invalid.
Never said bazaar is good (deja vu).
It is worse when you can actually buy skill from 5 sources into making one ubber char than buying one char you have no changing skill chance.
As you clearly will repeat all the things said in the thread and I wont be answering the same things again, I will just block. It is easier.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
58
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:23:41 -
[1831] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: Jenn, it's good for all players not just new ones. Now I can customize my skills however I want without arbitrary restrictions on backing them out.
Why are these existing arbitrary restrictions against backing out skills good?
It is not good for new players. Maybe for 1% of them. Same ratio can be applied for older as well.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12674
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:23:53 -
[1832] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Sibyyl wrote: Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?
Please list them.
So you aren't reading Tippia's posts? I read them. I don't see reasons against, just opinions.
I know for a fact you aren't this naive. i've seen you use good reasoning skills, I don't understand why you can't see (for yourself) why this is a bad idea. Maybe not $1000 jeans bad, but it's up there.
A game like EVE should cross certain lines. Things like PLEX and the character bazaar existing is one thing (necassary evils due to the fact that people will do bad things, like buy isk or sell characters on EBAY), but intentionally going beyond that, on purpose creating a situation where the people with lots of wealth end up having an easier go of it?
As it is now you have to buy what amounts to a flawed character if you want to 'speed things up' for yourself. This way experienced players get to make focused 'super characters' with zero skill training flaws powered by some dude's credit card.
Come on, you're telling me you can't see why this is a bad thing? Malcanis' Law is a real thing. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
407
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:24:04 -
[1833] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Skills give you access to more game features and improve the performance of your ship.
They don't make you a better pilot, however. So we don't need them, as pilots.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Xyzibit
New-Roots
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:24:08 -
[1834] - Quote
No! I strictly vote against it. CCP, you better don't go that far... |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25738
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:24:55 -
[1835] - Quote
You think the Bazaar isn't good? What's your solution? Delete the bazaar? Tell me more.
And I wish I could shout you out
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gascanu
Bearing Srl.
258
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:25:05 -
[1836] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?
Please list them.
There you go and without buzzwords "pay to win": Tippia wrote:This is bad on a design level (since it's the antithesis of design GÇö it actually disrupts mechanics), on a balance level (because it can't be balanced since it relies on cost as a restriction), and on a conceptual level (it doesn't actually solve any of the problems it's supposed to solve). Hell, just for good measure, I'd throw in that it's bad on a morale level too: it absolutely reeks of desperate last-ditch cash grab to hope that a handful of whales will splurge on their newfound ability to not let something as silly as core game design sit in the way of their grand ideas.
that's allot of words to say nothing, exactly: it will be bad for morale? how, dumping my mining skills that i have not used in the last 9 years will be bad for my morale? how about put yourself into a new player side, starting this game from the scratch, seeing all those new shinny ships everyone fly arownd but you can do it only after 6 months? like hell i would wait that long; i did it years ago, yes, but then eve was "the game" now it's just one among many many other game; this will help retain new players, and that is a good thing; and if you "smart" ppl think eve can live without new players you are wrong
i really don't get it; like really really don't understand some of you; i have my sps, and no one is going to take them away; now other ppl will be able to get sps "faster" and reach "the comfort zone" of about 50 mil sps faster; SO WHAT???! they will still die, they will still fly ******** fitted ships . like really? why the hell should i care someone have same sp lvl with me or even more?n |
Bantara
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:25:10 -
[1837] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Wendy, skills don't make you a better player. They never have. Why make and option to buy SP, then? Skills give you access to more game features and improve the performance of your ship. They don't make you a better pilot, however.
Eve is not a lobby FPS where the mechanics are all the same and the only things which matter are teamwork/tactics and personal skill. It is an MMO, and investment does currently matter(objective fact) and should matter(personal opinion.)
|
Dave Stark
7556
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:25:18 -
[1838] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:yet you avoided to reply on any of those... no i haven't. the only solid argument so far has been people paying to hit V in a skill that was released only yesterday - which is only an issue for like, a month. which is a trivially small amount of time. If you do not have basic understanding you should avoid discussions then. Every single valid argument you have avoided to counter argument by stating "those are not real arguments"? Well if they are so weak why not answer to the challenge and bury the challengers? Though I assume the real goal you are after is spam/troll so it is our mistake for even considering you for worthy participant in the discussion. I hope you will have nothing against me quoting every post you made and doing the same to you.
tippias argument is that you can "bypass game mehanics" - we're already doing that with the character bazzar. the issue of people obtaining more SP than normal is also not an issue as i pointed out pages ago - there's nothing a pilot with 400m sp can do perfectly that a character with ~50m sp can't do perfectly either. the time when "i'm the best at this because i have more sp than you" has passed, a long long time ago.
buying and selling sp has always been a thing - that's exactly what the character bazzar does. all this new idea does is remove the complexity of it. no more awkward forum sales, no more convoluted transfer process, easier to see what you're buying/selling etc.
tippia has yet to say anything other than "muh sp" and buzzwords. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:25:48 -
[1839] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: Don ZOLA replying with "no u" is not a good strategy for argumentation.
Please try again.
Since you have failed to actually read arguments in this topic, or provide counter arguments for them and yet think you should comment regardless, I find that such comment is more than appropriate for interlocutor of such level.
Edit: Same as Dark and all others who discuss in such ignorant way.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Penbreaker
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:25:52 -
[1840] - Quote
There are 3 points I read so far that I really like on this thread:
1. Player trust is potentially reduced as new and rapidly highly skilled characters could be the same existing a-ho you just kicked form corp.
2. There is a difference between reallocating SP within an account and trading openly on the market.
The dev post describes a penalty (an SP sink) for highly skilled players consuming sold points. I think a similar economic principal should be in place for selling across accounts. I'd like to see x number of free or bonus re-allocation for intra-account charactor SP swapping. At the same time I'd like to see an SP sink when trading across accounts. This rewards building your own toons with time and reduces the overall pool for short-cutters keeping time the primary generator of SP.
I like the idea of specializing an alt faster and moving no longer used points to newly wanted areas without purchasing a whole character to do it. On a small scale it would create a pleasing short term reward and improve the game experience.
3. The faster a player gets what he wants, plays to the new skill and explores the facets of the game, the faster he leaves the game for a new experience.
Which is fine really. I like Eve for the never ending experiences on the horizon. But if the horizon arrives there are other things to do.
A 4th point that may have already been made but I missed because I didn't read every post. Whelping new players is incredibly easy currently. I'm not opposed to making it more difficult by allowing fast SP acquisition. It actually puts more emphasis on pilot skills, which cannot be purchased.
|
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:27:05 -
[1841] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:CCP should instead start renting solar systems themselves. That would be a much less impactant way of rising cash quickly.
So I pay like 3 plex month and I have my very own wormhole with a couple NPCs to patrol it like a "mini me concord".
Space Garrison.
I would pay for this. I really, really would. Even regular systems.
Please CCP, please allow me to sponsor my own system /s that I can charge rent for anyone wanting to Dock at any of my stations.
Wait... We already do that. Except we have to defend those systems ourselves... |
Dave Stark
7556
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:27:06 -
[1842] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: Malcanis' Law is a real thing.
and applies to things aimed at new players.
we established after reading the devblog, and subsequently a few pages ago when i had to point it out to people; that isn't the case. this isn't aimed at new players, it's aimed at everyone. |
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
211
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:27:31 -
[1843] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:
Well, you will never have clever mechanics when 1 week old players have access to capital ships.
And you will never understand how badly conceived an idea is if you are not willing to read the ideas of all people regardless of agreeing or not with them.
How many 1 week old players can realistically afford that, and how many of those would actually do it even if they could afford it?
Where would the money go from all the plexes they buy?
Why should I care if a handfull of nubs are derping around in purple fit capitals?
Not many could afford to do it, not many would do it, the money goes to ccp to pay for the upkeep of the game, and I'd like to see those killmails start appearing.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:27:43 -
[1844] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Skills give you access to more game features and improve the performance of your ship.
They don't make you a better pilot, however. So we don't need them, as pilots.
Good pilots don't need boatloads of SP, no.
And I wish I could shout you out
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
150
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:29:02 -
[1845] - Quote
And it is like reading all the Capital Ship bla bla all over again.
Capital ships are useless today, we need balance, bla bla bla ...
Just because there is a mass of capital ship pilots that are in the wrong place with the wrong skills doing the wrong thing.
They think that Capital ships are just "big slow cruisers" as it seems.
But it is actually good for us already long time in game that change. Personally it is rewarding.
Im just sad I will see that despite the effort in building AI npcs who fight almost like a human, they will have to soon dumb them down to favor people who just sit on a battleship and think that it is hard to defeat them because the battleship is "useless".
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:29:16 -
[1846] - Quote
Bantara wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Wendy, skills don't make you a better player. They never have. Why make and option to buy SP, then? Skills give you access to more game features and improve the performance of your ship. They don't make you a better pilot, however. Eve is not a lobby FPS where the mechanics are all the same and the only things which matter are teamwork/tactics and personal skill. It is an MMO, and investment does currently matter(objective fact) and should matter(personal opinion.)
I don't think character building through investment in SP is a game mechanic worth preserving.
This change has nothing to do with teamwork or gameplay in space, which are the hallmarks of this game.
And I wish I could shout you out
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ArmyOfMe
Hull Breach. Outnumbered.
473
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:30:15 -
[1847] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Skills give you access to more game features and improve the performance of your ship.
They don't make you a better pilot, however. So we don't need them, as pilots. Good pilots don't need boatloads of SP, no. Not if you show up with enough number of ppl no. For the rest of us, sp actuall matter on how our ship performs, but dont worry, u will get there eventually.
QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:30:22 -
[1848] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:yet you avoided to reply on any of those... no i haven't. the only solid argument so far has been people paying to hit V in a skill that was released only yesterday - which is only an issue for like, a month. which is a trivially small amount of time. If you do not have basic understanding you should avoid discussions then. Every single valid argument you have avoided to counter argument by stating "those are not real arguments"? Well if they are so weak why not answer to the challenge and bury the challengers? Though I assume the real goal you are after is spam/troll so it is our mistake for even considering you for worthy participant in the discussion. I hope you will have nothing against me quoting every post you made and doing the same to you. tippias argument is that you can "bypass game mehanics" - we're already doing that with the character bazzar. the issue of people obtaining more SP than normal is also not an issue as i pointed out pages ago - there's nothing a pilot with 400m sp can do perfectly that a character with ~50m sp can't do perfectly either. the time when "i'm the best at this because i have more sp than you" has passed, a long long time ago. buying and selling sp has always been a thing - that's exactly what the character bazzar does. all this new idea does is remove the complexity of it. no more awkward forum sales, no more convoluted transfer process, easier to see what you're buying/selling etc. tippia has yet to say anything other than "muh sp" and buzzwords.
Haha that`s nonsense. You have no meaningful understanding how it really works. Do you have any argument for what you are saying?
See, I am already doing great in copying your way of posting :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1305
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:30:56 -
[1849] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: Jenn, it's good for all players not just new ones. Now I can customize my skills however I want without arbitrary restrictions on backing them out.
It's not even remotely good for new ones - new players aren't going to be buying these packets; they wont be able to, since the price will be dictated by what some Trillionaire is willing to pay to level up his next Titan pilot instantly, or what some speculator imagines the price point will go up to. Any new player joining the game already has to decide whether to ride the game as it is or buy PLEX to soften the isk-need at the beginning. But under this system that newbie now has to buy even more PLEX to get one of these packets too, or be left behind by those that can.
Its an issue of perspective - some posters here think having a "pay to catch up" option will lure in more players, while people like me think a "pay or fall behind" as catastrophic for luring those same new players.
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Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
150
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:31:04 -
[1850] - Quote
Fourteen Maken wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:
Well, you will never have clever mechanics when 1 week old players have access to capital ships.
And you will never understand how badly conceived an idea is if you are not willing to read the ideas of all people regardless of agreeing or not with them.
How many 1 week old players can realistically afford that, and how many of those would actually do it even if they could afford it? Where would the money go from all the plexes they buy? Why should I care if a handfull of nubs are derping around in purple fit capitals? Not many could afford to do it, not many would do it, the money goes to ccp to pay for the upkeep of the game, and I'd like to see those killmails start appearing.
You dont seem to be a person who knows the lenghts nerdy gamers who dont leave home and earn a lot doing IT stuff are capable of doing with money they dont spend on weekends at the beach ... do you ?
Your killmails will stop the moment people like me have the oportunity to amass 20 ships with full skill to face anything you bring. You will see the game soon disfavor you when people with skill and no clue start receiving buffs and skilled people start to being nerfet until flatline gaming removes ingame skill and IRL skill to a narrow level.
That is simple causality. Once you have no more limits to content people can jump into without learning, you have to flatline everyone to cookie cutter. That is essentially how WoW, GW and most NCSoft games are the way they are today.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
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Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:31:31 -
[1851] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Skills give you access to more game features and improve the performance of your ship.
They don't make you a better pilot, however. So we don't need them, as pilots. Good pilots don't need boatloads of SP, no.
Are you serious, you're basically saying skillpoints don't matter. In which case who cares if CCP implements this feature or not cause skillpoints aren't important player skill is. You must be very "special". |
Dave Stark
7556
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:31:39 -
[1852] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:yet you avoided to reply on any of those... no i haven't. the only solid argument so far has been people paying to hit V in a skill that was released only yesterday - which is only an issue for like, a month. which is a trivially small amount of time. If you do not have basic understanding you should avoid discussions then. Every single valid argument you have avoided to counter argument by stating "those are not real arguments"? Well if they are so weak why not answer to the challenge and bury the challengers? Though I assume the real goal you are after is spam/troll so it is our mistake for even considering you for worthy participant in the discussion. I hope you will have nothing against me quoting every post you made and doing the same to you. tippias argument is that you can "bypass game mehanics" - we're already doing that with the character bazzar. the issue of people obtaining more SP than normal is also not an issue as i pointed out pages ago - there's nothing a pilot with 400m sp can do perfectly that a character with ~50m sp can't do perfectly either. the time when "i'm the best at this because i have more sp than you" has passed, a long long time ago. buying and selling sp has always been a thing - that's exactly what the character bazzar does. all this new idea does is remove the complexity of it. no more awkward forum sales, no more convoluted transfer process, easier to see what you're buying/selling etc. tippia has yet to say anything other than "muh sp" and buzzwords. Haha that`s nonsense. You have no meaningful understanding how it really works. Do you have any argument for what you are saying? See, I am already doing great in copying your way of posting :D
you're meant to call it nonsense by dismissing i with facts.
let me give you an example; "it's bad because it's bypassing mechanics" - dismissed with the obvious; we've been doing it for ages with the character bazzar.
now, have another go. i know you can do this, i have faith in you. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
409
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:32:07 -
[1853] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Good pilots don't need boatloads of SP, no. So why do we have to take "buzzwords here" to help new players? SP don't matter only pilots skills...
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12675
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:32:31 -
[1854] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: Jenn, it's good for all players not just new ones. Now I can customize my skills however I want without arbitrary restrictions on backing them out.
Why are these existing arbitrary restrictions against backing out skills good?
Those "arbitrary restrictions" are called "the spirit of the game". Having spaceships instead of elves is an arbitrary restriction too.
CCP promised us that beyond necessary evils like PLEX and the Character Bazaar we would NEVER be able to use real life money to gain advantage in EVE Online. Being able to stuff the characters I use with SP (-minus whatever shrinkage they implement) from characters i don't use (5 of my character see little use currently) is going back on that promise made after Monoclegate.
Instead of having to THINK about what I want to train on an upcoming character (like last night trying to decide if I wanted to spend 8 days getting a toon into a Svipul of keep on with the 8 days to tech2 medium beams so that toon could fly in Phantasm Fleets), it's just whip out the old credit card and have it all RIGHT NOW (for less than i would spend in the current Character Bazaar).
EVE should never cater to such instant gratification instincts.
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:33:05 -
[1855] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: Malcanis' Law is a real thing. and applies to things aimed at new players. we established after reading the devblog, and subsequently a few pages ago when i had to point it out to people; that isn't the case. this isn't aimed at new players, it's aimed at everyone.
Haha, then why it is stated that it favours new players. How does it help everyone when it just rips of people above 80mil sp. If you want to boost everyone, make 1mil sp 1 plex for everyone. That is cold fair terms. Your arguments are invalid.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:33:14 -
[1856] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:Sibyyl wrote: Jenn, it's good for all players not just new ones. Now I can customize my skills however I want without arbitrary restrictions on backing them out.
It's not even remotely good for new ones - new players aren't going to be buying these packets; they wont be able to, since the price will be dictated by what some Trillionaire is willing to pay to level up his next Titan pilot instantly, or what some speculator imagines the price point will go up to. Any new player joining the game already has to decide whether to ride the game as it is or buy PLEX to soften the isk-need at the beginning. But under this system that newbie now has to buy even more PLEX to get one of these packets too, or be left behind by those that can. Its an issue of perspective - some posters here think having a "pay to catch up" option will lure in more players, while people like me think a "pay or fall behind" as catastrophic for luring those same new players.
New players don't buy characters from the bazaar? Really?
Older players >50m see diminishing returns with this mechanic. With the AUR cost it's not worth doing.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Terminal Insanity
Pwn 'N Play SpaceMonkey's Alliance
816
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:33:56 -
[1857] - Quote
I like the idea of trading the SP rather than the character, so that we can keep character names.
However, outright selling SP is ... um... hell no.
"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12675
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:34:20 -
[1858] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
tippia has yet to say anything other than "muh sp" and buzzwords.
Then you aren't reading Tip's posts critically.
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Dave Stark
7556
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:35:46 -
[1859] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: Malcanis' Law is a real thing. and applies to things aimed at new players. we established after reading the devblog, and subsequently a few pages ago when i had to point it out to people; that isn't the case. this isn't aimed at new players, it's aimed at everyone. Haha, then why it is stated that it favours new players. How does it help everyone when it just rips of people above 80mil sp. If you want to boost everyone, make 1mil sp 1 plex for everyone. That is cold fair terms. Your arguments are invalid.
try reading the devblog.
it clearly states it's aimed at everyone.
the diminishing returns are to protect the prestige. all in the devblog that you should probably go and read.
don't let facts get in the way of your quoting though. you'll get the hang of it soon, i hope. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:35:54 -
[1860] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Sibyyl wrote: Jenn, it's good for all players not just new ones. Now I can customize my skills however I want without arbitrary restrictions on backing them out.
Why are these existing arbitrary restrictions against backing out skills good?
Those "arbitrary restrictions" are called "the spirit of the game". Having spaceships instead of elves is an arbitrary restriction too. CCP promised us that beyond necessary evils like PLEX and the Character Bazaar we would NEVER be able to use real life money to gain advantage in EVE Online. Being able to stuff the characters I use with SP (-minus whatever shrinkage they implement) from characters i don't use (5 of my character see little use currently) is going back on that promise made after Monoclegate. Instead of having to THINK about what I want to train on an upcoming character (like last night trying to decide if I wanted to spend 8 days getting a toon into a Svipul of keep on with the 8 days to tech2 medium beams so that toon could fly in Phantasm Fleets), it's just whip out the old credit card and have it all RIGHT NOW (for less than i would spend in the current Character Bazaar). EVE should never cater to such instant gratification instincts.
Jenn, explain to me very specifically how this mechanic adds a pay to win vector that buying a perfect Svipul pilot from Character Bazaar doesn't already offer.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Bantara
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
48
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:36:22 -
[1861] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Bantara wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Wendy, skills don't make you a better player. They never have. Why make and option to buy SP, then? Skills give you access to more game features and improve the performance of your ship. They don't make you a better pilot, however. Eve is not a lobby FPS where the mechanics are all the same and the only things which matter are teamwork/tactics and personal skill. It is an MMO, and investment does currently matter(objective fact) and should matter(personal opinion.) I don't think character building through investment in SP is a game mechanic worth preserving.
Clearly. We'll have to agree to disagree. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
62
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:36:32 -
[1862] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
no i haven't.
the only solid argument so far has been people paying to hit V in a skill that was released only yesterday - which is only an issue for like, a month. which is a trivially small amount of time.
If you do not have basic understanding you should avoid discussions then. Every single valid argument you have avoided to counter argument by stating "those are not real arguments"? Well if they are so weak why not answer to the challenge and bury the challengers? Though I assume the real goal you are after is spam/troll so it is our mistake for even considering you for worthy participant in the discussion. I hope you will have nothing against me quoting every post you made and doing the same to you. tippias argument is that you can "bypass game mehanics" - we're already doing that with the character bazzar. the issue of people obtaining more SP than normal is also not an issue as i pointed out pages ago - there's nothing a pilot with 400m sp can do perfectly that a character with ~50m sp can't do perfectly either. the time when "i'm the best at this because i have more sp than you" has passed, a long long time ago. buying and selling sp has always been a thing - that's exactly what the character bazzar does. all this new idea does is remove the complexity of it. no more awkward forum sales, no more convoluted transfer process, easier to see what you're buying/selling etc. tippia has yet to say anything other than "muh sp" and buzzwords. Haha that`s nonsense. You have no meaningful understanding how it really works. Do you have any argument for what you are saying? See, I am already doing great in copying your way of posting :D you're meant to call it nonsense by dismissing i with facts. let me give you an example; "it's bad because it's bypassing mechanics" - dismissed with the obvious; we've been doing it for ages with the character bazzar. now, have another go. i know you can do this, i have faith in you.
And then i challenge you to find 300mil sp char now and you cannot find it. Yet with this "feature" it will be doable. But then you skip to commenting that SP does not matter which is not related to original argument at all. And so you just keep taking one sentence out of context and keep changing subject every time you cannot come up with and argument for a challenge. Why are you surprised then, when i treat you as troll?
You have spammed this thread a lot, yet I do not think you made a single proper counter argument to solid arguments which are done here. SO enjoy your troll treatment.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Dave Stark
7556
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:37:09 -
[1863] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
tippia has yet to say anything other than "muh sp" and buzzwords.
Then you aren't reading Tip's posts critically.
at this point, i don't think it matters. given the ample opportunity provided to provide any kind issue this would cause i doubt he ever will since he hasn't already. |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:37:33 -
[1864] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: Skill points aren't holy. All the arguments against this change make the assumption that somehow the choices you made during skill training are somehow a permanent mark on the character.
Not everyone agrees with that assumption. Making skill points modular removes another barrier of inaccessibility to the game.
Not everyone agrees with that assumption or there wouldn't be 90+ pages of paying subscribers saying "NO".
The choices you made during skill training are a permanent mark on the character and should be.
Eve is NOT just about blowing things up. There's trade and community and capability is part of building the community.
As it stands your kill count will become the new demarcation of maturity and activity in the game. That's not a good thing, because there's so many other things you can accomplish in game that aren't tracked.
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darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:37:55 -
[1865] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
tippia has yet to say anything other than "muh sp" and buzzwords.
Then you aren't reading Tip's posts critically.
neither don zolas posts all discussions with dave are in an infinite loop and the resulting black hole will kill all of us.
i still want a "dislike" button for forum posts please :3 |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1679
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:38:05 -
[1866] - Quote
you know ccp looking at this thread and thinking about the vets saying we can just rinse our alts of sp and apply to our main, CCP: "yes this is working they are all talking about rinsing alts, they have to buy aurum to do that, op success"
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12681
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:38:31 -
[1867] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
let me give you an example; "it's bad because it's bypassing mechanics" - dismissed with the obvious; we've been doing it for ages with the character bazzar.
We haven't been doing this with the Character Bazaar. The CB is a flawed process, those flaws (having to have an empty character slot, not being able to change name and so forth) make it a palatable necessary Evil.
In No place on earth is it a good idea to take a necessary evil and make it into a REAL evil......
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
62
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:38:34 -
[1868] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: Malcanis' Law is a real thing. and applies to things aimed at new players. we established after reading the devblog, and subsequently a few pages ago when i had to point it out to people; that isn't the case. this isn't aimed at new players, it's aimed at everyone. Haha, then why it is stated that it favours new players. How does it help everyone when it just rips of people above 80mil sp. If you want to boost everyone, make 1mil sp 1 plex for everyone. That is cold fair terms. Your arguments are invalid. try reading the devblog. it clearly states it's aimed at everyone. the diminishing returns are to protect the prestige. all in the devblog that you should probably go and read. don't let facts get in the way of your quoting though. you'll get the hang of it soon, i hope.
try reading the devblog.
it clearly states it favours younger players.
the diminishing returns are to protect the prestige, which does not mean anything as it cannot be protected if someone really wants to drop cash to do it. So that protection is fake, it is just more expensive to reach that prestige.
don`t let facts get in the way of your quoting though - ah you are not operating with any facts anyway, i do not have to finish this one :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Dave Stark
7556
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:38:40 -
[1869] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:And then i challenge you to find 300mil sp char now and you cannot find it. Yet with this "feature" it will be doable. But then you skip to commenting that SP does not matter which is not related to original argument at all. And so you just keep taking one sentence out of context and keep changing subject every time you cannot come up with and argument for a challenge. Why are you surprised then, when i treat you as troll?
You have spammed this thread a lot, yet I do not think you made a single proper counter argument to solid arguments which are done here. SO enjoy your troll treatment.
what issue will a 300m sp character pose? and what should be done to prevent anyone ever owning a 300m sp character?
how will a character with 300m sp be an issue such that this idea should never happen?
300m sp characters will, at some point, happen. why should that point never come to pass? |
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
211
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:39:24 -
[1870] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Fourteen Maken wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:
Well, you will never have clever mechanics when 1 week old players have access to capital ships.
And you will never understand how badly conceived an idea is if you are not willing to read the ideas of all people regardless of agreeing or not with them.
How many 1 week old players can realistically afford that, and how many of those would actually do it even if they could afford it? Where would the money go from all the plexes they buy? Why should I care if a handfull of nubs are derping around in purple fit capitals? Not many could afford to do it, not many would do it, the money goes to ccp to pay for the upkeep of the game, and I'd like to see those killmails start appearing. You dont seem to be a person who knows the lenghts nerdy gamers who dont leave home and earn a lot doing IT stuff are capable of doing with money they dont spend on weekends at the beach ... do you ? Your killmails will stop the moment people like me have the oportunity to amass 20 ships with full skill to face anything you bring. You will see the game soon disfavor you when people with skill and no clue start receiving buffs and skilled people start to being nerfet until flatline gaming removes ingame skill and IRL skill to a narrow level. That is simple causality. Once you have no more limits to content people can jump into without learning, you have to flatline everyone to cookie cutter. That is essentially how WoW, GW and most NCSoft games are the way they are today.
good. I'm sure ccp will put their money to good use, and it's not like in WoW where you buy the diamond sword and you can cut everyone in half... if a noob gets in titan on day 1 he'll lose it on day 1. His money, his choice... not seeing any downsides for me or the rest of the sane people playing eve.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
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Dave Stark
7556
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:39:39 -
[1871] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:try reading the devblog.
it clearly states it favours younger players.
never said it didn't.
i pointed out the fact, as stated by the devblog, that this suggestion is aimed at everyone; not new just new players. i know reading is hard, but try it. please. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12681
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:39:44 -
[1872] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:you know ccp looking at this thread and thinking about the vets saying we can just rinse our alts of sp and apply to our main, CCP: "yes this is working they are all talking about rinsing alts, they have to buy aurum to do that, op success"
I'm not a 'CCP is grabbing money' conspiracy theorist.
At least I wasn't till yesterday
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Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
49
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:40:51 -
[1873] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: People can use the character bazaar today. Your argument is invalid.
It has been pointed out several times in this thread that the character bazaar is not the same as the proposed system for trading skill points.
Your argument is actually the invalid one since it assumes an identity of terms, where it is not given.
Just a few points to show some differences between the bazaar and the proposed skill training.
a) Degree and Cost of Customization -> The characters sold in the Character Bazaar come as they are. Some might have been trained up perfectly, some have grown more organically. Training those individual characters up took the same time to train up every other character with the same SP and attributes. They come as a package of millions of SP. They took as long to train up as any other character with comparable SP. They are expensive.
-> Skill Trading would allow to micro-customize any character new or existing. It would even allow to micro-customize on the fly during operations. Skill Trading would allow to train new characters up in minutes. The costs of micro customizing would be below those of buying a complete character.
b) History of Characters - Intelligence & Consequences -> Characters on the bazaar have a history that reflects their identity in game. The older a character is, the more history it likely has. Looking at corp history, eve-search, killboards, age, sec status ... are important tools ingame to evaluate another character.
-> Skill Trading would allow to create high-sp characters that have a virgin history.
c) Availability of Characters -> The amount characters for sale on the Bazaar is limited by the number of characters trained. -> Skill Trading would create an unlimited amount of supply of characters with any skillset. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:40:57 -
[1874] - Quote
Laodell wrote:The choices you made during skill training are a permanent mark on the character and should be.
And now they won't be. Explain to me why that's bad.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1600
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:41:51 -
[1875] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Jenn, explain to me very specifically how this mechanic adds a pay to win vector that buying a perfect Svipul pilot from Character Bazaar doesn't already offer.
Edit: Where did you get that it's less than Character Bazaar?
When you do that you buy an existing character with a character age (probably relative to its SP count), a character history and a name). THAT CHARACTER is perfectly in line with the normal rules of the sandbox regardless of its actual owner. This system does NOT follow the normal character progression rules.
I'm sure you weren't happy when the Ishukone Scorpions were introduced because they completely circumvented the normal sandbox rules. This is similar. I'm sure you can understand the difference but as per Malcanis' bio it's VERY difficult to make people understand something if they feel it's in their best interest to not understand it.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26504
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:42:16 -
[1876] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:what? i haven't moved anything dude - you've still yet to state a single issue this will cause. other than the aforementioned "you can get more sp than your char age allows" stuff. ]GǪexcept for the time when you moved them from the actual issue to a completely different one once you figured that you couldn't respond to the issue as stated. You know, like you did just now GÇö again GÇö when you invented some idiotic nonsense about character age that is entirely your argument, not mine, and that has nothing to do with the issue I have repeated explained to you, and which as a bonus is the exact opposite of what I have said as I have pointed out on multiple occasions.
Quote:you could... you know, just point out an issue. You could, you know, learn to read.
Quote:tippias argument is that you can "bypass game mehanics" - we're already doing that with the character bazzar. GǪexcept that the bazaar does not bypass any game mechanics. You cannot increase the SP on your character in bulk or make it acquire SP any faster through the use of the bazaar. All you can do is continue to acquire SP at the same maximum speed as everyone else on a character that has been built, still using that same maximum speed, by someone else. At no point in all of that are the mechanics that determine SP acquisition GÇö or indeed any mechancis GÇö bypassed, altered, or in any way tweaked.
Quote:given the ample opportunity provided to provide any kind issue this would cause GǪI have done so at every occasion, and you have been so wound up in your fantastical hallucination of a strawman that you fail to see it every time.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
405
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:42:20 -
[1877] - Quote
Reading comments and thinking about benefits and issues, I changed my mind from "interesting proposal" to "omg, it's a minefield".
Please add your pros and cons to the list below:
pros:
- pilots can get rid of unwanted skills (less important than it was when we had to pay for gradually more expensive medical clone updates)
- reduces boring waiting periods for long skill plans
- boost to new players ability to get into T2 ships as often required by PvP groups
cons:
- T3 pilots being able to immediately replace SP lost when their ship explodes changes the way T3 was designed to affect pilots.
- Newbs could skip entire parts of the game and learning experience to jump to a percieved end-game with possible disappointment. (losing the "looking foward to fly x" and replacing it by "... started playing last week, bought a Dread and it sucks, I quit")
- Rich alliances could bolster their ranks with higher SP pilots by simply buying them SP packs.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
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Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
152
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:43:55 -
[1878] - Quote
Again, one thing:
It is presently impossible for me to go to the bazaar and buy a couple cruiser pilots and make myself a capital superhuman by just mixing them up.
If I can buy a skill pill from each, then I can.
It is presently impossible for me to make my alts benefit my main in any way skill wise.
If I can buy a skill "pill maker", I can shave off all the skill points my alts have that I dont need as they are already skilled to their task, and make a 3, 10, 100 fold skill queue, effectivelly using the alts to bundle skill training of my main to unbelievable speed.
If you read the dev blog, you will see that diminishing returns put stress on newly created doners, not old doners. So that impact makes effectively doning skills a burden on newer players which will depend on veterans to do it.
That rises yet another issue: The first to use it will be alt holders, as they will benefit themselves first, then themselves again making a money making biz.
So, to sum it up, first it benefits the already powerful people in making their alts produce proverbial skill juice. Then it benefits already powerful people who has skillpoints to sell, then it benefits medium skilled people which will be first market. Then it benefits high paying new people, which can afford the starting market. Then, after a while, when the game is already flooded with the power of the powerful drawn from exploiting it to oblivion, some new player may be benefited.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
55
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:44:04 -
[1879] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:nice list of buzzwords. now, what will happen in-game because of this change that isn't already happening? as yet you've listed nothing. It will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it. This is bad on a design level (since it's the antithesis of design GÇö it actually disrupts mechanics), on a balance level (because it can't be balanced since it relies on cost as a restriction), and on a conceptual level (it doesn't actually solve any of the problems it's supposed to solve). Hell, just for good measure, I'd throw in that it's bad on a morale level too: it absolutely reeks of desperate last-ditch cash grab to hope that a handful of whales will splurge on their newfound ability to not let something as silly as core game design sit in the way of their grand ideas. In other words: try reading. The answer will not change and, more importantly, will not go away just because you refuse to acknowledge it for some absurd reason.
You talk about bypassing mechanics but I think you ignore the difference between bypassing mechanics and mechanics evolving. warp to zero, scan changes, hell the addition of autopilot all "bypassed" the mechanics of the day, and you know what, they were all for the better.
I agree that cost restriction being a method of balance is bad, after all its this which lead to the Titan/Super bloat we currently have. EvE players are gluten for punishment and will always brute force their way to something they want if they have to. That being said, skill points can already be brute forced by character trading (And no, that's not different except cosmetically. After all do you really care if my latest ship that killed you was piloted by my main or my 15th alt?)
My only big concern here is adding more pressure to an already inflated PLEX market. Ideally it would be nice if PLEX and AUR were decoupled. Plex for game time and services, and AUR for cosmetic and these new skill items. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
86
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:44:53 -
[1880] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players. except that nowhere in the devblog, does it state that. not a single place. there is ONE instance of the phrase "new players" in the devblog, and it doesn't say it's for them. the reference to "new players" is that they've noticed us talking about it. not once have they said this is for new players in that devblog. not a single time.
"0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added As you can see, this design favors skill transfers for younger characters and makes them very inefficient for older characters. WeGÇÖve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character."
Now younger characters does not necessarily always mean new players, but you have to pretty damned obtuse to not see it is at least biased towards benefiting new players, both in their mentioning of them and in the skill point distribution. |
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Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
49
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:45:01 -
[1881] - Quote
Oops |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12690
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:46:11 -
[1882] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Sibyyl wrote: Jenn, it's good for all players not just new ones. Now I can customize my skills however I want without arbitrary restrictions on backing them out.
Why are these existing arbitrary restrictions against backing out skills good?
Those "arbitrary restrictions" are called "the spirit of the game". Having spaceships instead of elves is an arbitrary restriction too. CCP promised us that beyond necessary evils like PLEX and the Character Bazaar we would NEVER be able to use real life money to gain advantage in EVE Online. Being able to stuff the characters I use with SP (-minus whatever shrinkage they implement) from characters i don't use (5 of my character see little use currently) is going back on that promise made after Monoclegate. Instead of having to THINK about what I want to train on an upcoming character (like last night trying to decide if I wanted to spend 8 days getting a toon into a Svipul of keep on with the 8 days to tech2 medium beams so that toon could fly in Phantasm Fleets), it's just whip out the old credit card and have it all RIGHT NOW (for less than i would spend in the current Character Bazaar). EVE should never cater to such instant gratification instincts. Jenn, explain to me very specifically how this mechanic adds a pay to win vector that buying a perfect Svipul pilot from Character Bazaar doesn't already offer. Edit: Where did you get that it's less than Character Bazaar?
It works by offering a heretofore never before seen way to modify EXISTING characters. With the CB, you have to take a number of hits (open character slots, cash or 2 plexes to use, stuck with a dumb name etc). The proposed system takes away everything that makes the CB acceptable to those of us who actually like the existing nature of EVE online (where for the most part nothing is quick, and everything has to be earned).
Hard to believe that you are in love with a bad idea because it will let you bypass some of those things.
And of course it will be less than the CB, Have you never used it before? Buying a character ain't cheap. If it cost more to sculpt than to buy a character, no one would use it (and it would fail your 'accessibility' test, now wouldn't it).
I say again, you're one of the smarter posters here. Ask yourself why people you normally agree with are so against it and you will start to understand.
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
65
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:46:29 -
[1883] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:And then i challenge you to find 300mil sp char now and you cannot find it. Yet with this "feature" it will be doable. But then you skip to commenting that SP does not matter which is not related to original argument at all. And so you just keep taking one sentence out of context and keep changing subject every time you cannot come up with and argument for a challenge. Why are you surprised then, when i treat you as troll?
You have spammed this thread a lot, yet I do not think you made a single proper counter argument to solid arguments which are done here. SO enjoy your troll treatment. what issue will a 300m sp character pose? and what should be done to prevent anyone ever owning a 300m sp character? how will a character with 300m sp be an issue such that this idea should never happen? 300m sp characters will, at some point, happen. why should that point never come to pass?
Again you are changing the subject. Why not answer my question? Ah because then you would have to admit you are wrong...
Game mechanics does not give you possibility to own 300 mils sp char at the moment. After this changes you will be able to have it ahead of the time regularly needed for it. It will cost but you will be able to have it. And that means that game mechanics will be changed.
But please, keep repeating it will not, and keep your argument lacking posting, I am actually enjoying how you make yourself look like a clown :D And hopefully CCP will read this topic and after they see what people who support this idea think and say they will find out how ******** it is :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Dave Stark
7556
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:46:46 -
[1884] - Quote
Tippia wrote:except that the bazaar does not bypass any game mechanics. You cannot increase the SP on your character in bulk or make it acquire SP any faster through the use of the bazaar. All you can do is continue to acquire SP at the same maximum speed as everyone else on a character that has been built, still using that same maximum speed, by someone else. At no point in all of that are the mechanics that determine SP acquisition GÇö or indeed any mechancis GÇö bypassed, altered, or in any way tweaked.
this new proposal doesn't change the SP acquisition rate either. therefore the only issue remaining is that the total SP on a character is greater than the theoretical total. which causes exactly what issues? |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
259
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:46:49 -
[1885] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:try reading the devblog.
it clearly states it favours younger players. never said it didn't. i pointed out the fact, as stated by the devblog, that this suggestion is aimed at everyone; not new just new players. i know reading is hard, but try it. please.
eve online is running since what 2003? 13 years... 13 years is a looooong time: you can marry and get kids, you can change your living place/home/country, you can change your job, you can change your wife, etc, but you can never be able to change your eve skills!
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Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
155
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:48:41 -
[1886] - Quote
Fourteen Maken wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:Fourteen Maken wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:
Well, you will never have clever mechanics when 1 week old players have access to capital ships.
And you will never understand how badly conceived an idea is if you are not willing to read the ideas of all people regardless of agreeing or not with them.
How many 1 week old players can realistically afford that, and how many of those would actually do it even if they could afford it? Where would the money go from all the plexes they buy? Why should I care if a handfull of nubs are derping around in purple fit capitals? Not many could afford to do it, not many would do it, the money goes to ccp to pay for the upkeep of the game, and I'd like to see those killmails start appearing. You dont seem to be a person who knows the lenghts nerdy gamers who dont leave home and earn a lot doing IT stuff are capable of doing with money they dont spend on weekends at the beach ... do you ? Your killmails will stop the moment people like me have the oportunity to amass 20 ships with full skill to face anything you bring. You will see the game soon disfavor you when people with skill and no clue start receiving buffs and skilled people start to being nerfet until flatline gaming removes ingame skill and IRL skill to a narrow level. That is simple causality. Once you have no more limits to content people can jump into without learning, you have to flatline everyone to cookie cutter. That is essentially how WoW, GW and most NCSoft games are the way they are today. good. I'm sure ccp will put their money to good use, and it's not like in WoW where you buy the diamond sword and you can cut everyone in half... if a noob gets in titan on day 1 he'll lose it on day 1. His money, his choice... not seeing any downsides for me or the rest of the sane people playing eve.
Yes, because no one will be buying ganking alts to gang **** veterans and start the noobpower movement.
If people when offered started pissing long time players off in "Habbo Hotel" just as they could clog doors with bought chars that were oversized, what you think lolers will do with eve when you can buy pilots to instakill trillion ISK ships by just 20 USD ?
The impression of exceptionalism from some peoples in this World is astonishing. They will believe they are on top of a pedestal until any given troller who doesnt even know what is their char race name are piloting ships that can kills you with no skill required whatsoever.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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Dave Stark
7556
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:48:47 -
[1887] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players. except that nowhere in the devblog, does it state that. not a single place. there is ONE instance of the phrase "new players" in the devblog, and it doesn't say it's for them. the reference to "new players" is that they've noticed us talking about it. not once have they said this is for new players in that devblog. not a single time. "0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added As you can see, this design favors skill transfers for younger characters and makes them very inefficient for older characters. WeGÇÖve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character." Now younger characters does not necessarily always mean new players, but you have to pretty damned obtuse to not see it is at least biased towards benefiting new players, both in their mentioning of them and in the skill point distribution.
now carry on reading, please.
"WeGÇÖve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character."
oh look, we can clearly see the reason for that change. again, go back to the devblog and read it.
the paragraph after quite literally says "By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone." that it's for everyone not just new players.
read the devblog |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
56
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:49:06 -
[1888] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪexcept that the bazaar does not bypass any game mechanics. You cannot increase the SP on your character in bulk or make it acquire SP any faster through the use of the bazaar. All you can do is continue to acquire SP at the same maximum speed as everyone else on a character that has been built, still using that same maximum speed, by someone else. At no point in all of that are the mechanics that determine SP acquisition GÇö or indeed any mechancis GÇö bypassed, altered, or in any way tweaked.
Implants and accelerators accelerate SP acquisition. The more ISK I have, the better implants I can buy and I'll have an advantage over those who can only afford the low end ones. The same will be true with the new packs. If you can pay the ISK, you can buy them off the market from sellers just like anyone else. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12690
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:49:56 -
[1889] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Laodell wrote:The choices you made during skill training are a permanent mark on the character and should be.
And now they won't be. Explain to me why that's bad.
Because it's a lessening of the game we are playing. Choices matter, they are the only things that give the experiences we have in EVE VALUE. This idea diminishes the value of the choices players make as well as the time they spend learning from and correcting their mistakes (and lets them do so with real life money in a way they previously could not), which diminishes the overall value of the game.
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
65
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:50:19 -
[1890] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:try reading the devblog.
it clearly states it favours younger players. never said it didn't. i pointed out the fact, as stated by the devblog, that this suggestion is aimed at everyone; not new just new players. i know reading is hard, but try it. please.
does it favour everyone? Nope, just young players. It is aimed at everyone in such great manner that not more than 1% of people will use it. Let me quote one of the previous posts you have already avoided to answer, so you can avoid it again, just for lolz:
"So CCP is changing the fundamentals of their game, fundamentals of multi million usd/eur business, to provide option to some people who did mistakes in skilling their chars or need just some more sp to make their dreams come true. Company is changing fundamentals of such business to gain couple of thousands usd/eur more or to make 1% of player base happier?"
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Corylus Avellana
Tax Evasion GmbH.
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:50:53 -
[1891] - Quote
Is it April's Fools? I've reactivated few month ago and you want me to regret that?
Utterly terrible idea. Another step to pay2win junk. |
Dave Stark
7556
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:50:54 -
[1892] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:And then i challenge you to find 300mil sp char now and you cannot find it. Yet with this "feature" it will be doable. But then you skip to commenting that SP does not matter which is not related to original argument at all. And so you just keep taking one sentence out of context and keep changing subject every time you cannot come up with and argument for a challenge. Why are you surprised then, when i treat you as troll?
You have spammed this thread a lot, yet I do not think you made a single proper counter argument to solid arguments which are done here. SO enjoy your troll treatment. what issue will a 300m sp character pose? and what should be done to prevent anyone ever owning a 300m sp character? how will a character with 300m sp be an issue such that this idea should never happen? 300m sp characters will, at some point, happen. why should that point never come to pass? Again you are changing the subject. Why not answer my question? Ah because then you would have to admit you are wrong... Game mechanics does not give you possibility to own 300 mils sp char at the moment. After this changes you will be able to have it ahead of the time regularly needed for it. It will cost but you will be able to have it. And that means that game mechanics will be changed. But please, keep repeating it will not, and keep your argument lacking posting, I am actually enjoying how you make yourself look like a clown :D And hopefully CCP will read this topic and after they see what people who support this idea think and say they will find out how ******** it is :D
because your only question wasn't related to the topic we're discussing.
you've yet to point out the issue caused by owning a 300m sp character. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:51:01 -
[1893] - Quote
Talsha Talamar wrote:It has been pointed out several times in this thread that the character bazaar is not the same as the proposed system for trading skill points.
Your argument is actually the invalid one since it assumes an identity of terms, where it is not given. The Character Bazaar isn't the same as this SP mechanic change. I never said they were one in the same. But as far as the "skipping to endgame content" argument goes, yes they are exactly the same.
Quote:-> Skill Trading would allow to micro-customize any character new or existing. It would even allow to micro-customize on the fly during operations. Skill Trading would allow to train new characters up in minutes. The costs of micro customizing would be below those of buying a complete character. And why is micro customizing as a concept bad? I don't (yet) see an argument (not an opinion) against.
Quote:b) History of Characters - Intelligence & Consequences -> Characters on the bazaar have a history that reflects their identity in game. The older a character is, the more history it likely has. Looking at corp history, eve-search, killboards, age, sec status ... are important tools ingame to evaluate another character.
-> Skill Trading would allow to create high-sp characters that have a virgin history.
Maybe you haven't been on the Character Bazaar. Characters are traded on and off the Bazaar using anonymous alts. The intelligence you gather isn't perfect, and I don't particularly think it's bad that spies gain an advantage from this change. Spies take down corps and create content.
Quote:c) Availability of Characters -> The amount characters for sale on the Bazaar is limited by the number of characters trained. -> Skill Trading would create an unlimited amount of supply of characters with any skillset. The skills you trade were trained by someone else, exactly in the same way as in the Bazaar. There is no "unlimited" SP since every SP would have to be trained in advance (just like Character Bazaar).
And I wish I could shout you out
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Dave Stark
7556
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:51:51 -
[1894] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:does it favour everyone?
yes.
everyone is able to use this system to increase their total sp to a value higher than it was previously. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:52:03 -
[1895] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:When you do that you buy an existing character with a character age (probably relative to its SP count), a character history, skill point allocation and a name. THAT CHARACTER is perfectly in line with the normal rules of the sandbox regardless of its actual owner. This new idea does NOT follow the normal character progression rules. "Normal". Now are you going to defend why "normal" is "holy"? Why is it too holy to touch with a change like this? Why is the change actually bad?
And I wish I could shout you out
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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
406
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:52:24 -
[1896] - Quote
Solution: start everyone out with all skills trained.
So far this is a pure troll proposal. But what if we add SP loss at podkill back into the mixture ?
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
65
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:53:01 -
[1897] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players. except that nowhere in the devblog, does it state that. not a single place. there is ONE instance of the phrase "new players" in the devblog, and it doesn't say it's for them. the reference to "new players" is that they've noticed us talking about it. not once have they said this is for new players in that devblog. not a single time. "0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added As you can see, this design favors skill transfers for younger characters and makes them very inefficient for older characters. WeGÇÖve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character." Now younger characters does not necessarily always mean new players, but you have to pretty damned obtuse to not see it is at least biased towards benefiting new players, both in their mentioning of them and in the skill point distribution. now carry on reading, please. "WeGÇÖve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character." oh look, we can clearly see the reason for that change. again, go back to the devblog and read it. the paragraph after quite literally says "By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone." that it's for everyone not just new players. read the devblog
Try to read with understanding. Protect the prestige is not working, it is just more expensive to get it. You need to work on your comprehension skills.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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SFX Bladerunner
Black Serpent Technologies The-Culture
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:53:14 -
[1898] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:
SP ISNT EVERYTHING... EXPERIENCE IS ALSO REQUIRED.
Exactly our point.
If you didn't have to gradually make your way up the SP ladder to fly that shiny ship with the shiny mods, you don't have an appreciation for it or its worth.
If something didn't take you any effort or time to attain, you have no respect for it.. how could you.
That'd be like saying it's ok to hand a 16yo kid a nuclear bomb as long as his cheque clears out ok... No effort, no responsibility, no respect. Certain things you just shouldn't have access to unless you've proven your worth and ability to handle them properly be it through training, learning, figuring it out yourself or whatever. There's plenty of stories and movies and other works of fiction out there trying to hammer down this idea, alas it is unfortunate to see even here in New Eden people are still struggling with the concept. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
132
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:53:32 -
[1899] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:Solution: start everyone out with all skills trained. I've been suggesting that for years.
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
65
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:53:59 -
[1900] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:does it favour everyone? yes. everyone is able to use this system to increase their total sp to a value higher than it was previously.
read the devlog plz.
It states there it favours younger players. It is designed for everyone, but favours only younger players.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:53:59 -
[1901] - Quote
Tippia wrote:except that the bazaar does not bypass any game mechanics. You cannot increase the SP on your character in bulk or make it acquire SP any faster through the use of the bazaar. All you can do is continue to acquire SP at the same maximum speed as everyone else on a character that has been built, still using that same maximum speed, by someone else. At no point in all of that are the mechanics that determine SP acquisition GÇö or indeed any mechancis GÇö bypassed, altered, or in any way tweaked.
The Bazaar does bypass game mechanics. Purchasing a character instantly increases the SP pool in your account. Those SP in the character you bought weren't trained by you, and yet here they sit now in your account.
It is exactly and fundamentally the same (in concept) to the SP boost you will receive from this change.
I believe your issue with it is the flexibility, and I haven't seen you prove why this flexibility is bad for EVE.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26508
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:54:02 -
[1902] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:You talk about bypassing mechanics but I think you ignore the difference between bypassing mechanics and mechanics evolving. warp to zero, scan changes, hell the addition of autopilot all "bypassed" the mechanics of the day, and you know what, they were all for the better. But this isn't a case of evolving GÇö it's a case of putting a paywall on letting some players work under vastly different conditions.
If they wanted to evolve the mechanics, they would have made it universal: remove attributes; double (or something) training speed, possibly with some slow-down based on total SP; remove the remaining instances of SP loss. Bish bash bosh, evolved training with very similar effects. In short, they would actually have altered the underlying mechanic rather than put a cash-based layer on top of it, where the main purpose is to not be bothered by the mechanic to begin with.
I use the word GÇ£bypassedGÇ¥ for a very specific reason: they are not actually changing the mechanic. They are only providing means to skip over some of the effects that players occasionally complain about. The actual reasons for the complaint are still there and still apply as much as ever to anyone who doesn't want to pay.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1135
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:54:14 -
[1903] - Quote
Also: There are a percentage of the player base that don't really play any more, but they keep the account subbed so they can keep skilling. This proposal would let them drop the subscription, because they could just buy the SP later. At this juncture though, "later" might never happen. Most subscriptions would most likely never re-sub. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:54:56 -
[1904] - Quote
SFX Bladerunner wrote:If you didn't have to gradually make your way up the SP ladder to fly that shiny ship with the shiny mods, you don't have an appreciation for it or its worth.
There's a Character Bazaar. Did you miss it?
And I wish I could shout you out
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Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
156
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:55:23 -
[1905] - Quote
Lets lol a bit.
What is the difference of a char owning tons of SP ?
It is contraproducent to cultivate a pletoria of alts that can fit a destroyer with its maximum DPS if you need to wait months to have it.
As you can just buy a skill pill bottle, you just can make a capacitor, speed, damage, agility and sig radius efficient army of t1 frigate alts capable of detroying a trillion ship piloting a less than 1 mil ship which would need almost 1000 alts to match cost, not counting module costs which differ A LOT.
Once a veteran does it, a charismatic veteran can start a cult to make it so lots of people do the same.
In no time you have actual no fly zones as far in hisec as Jita. With less than 200 USD cost.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:56:09 -
[1906] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sibyyl wrote: The Bazaar does bypass game mechanics. Purchasing a character instantly increases the SP pool in your account.
SP pool on your account is not a game mechanic.
The Bazaar lets you buy SP you didn't train yourself.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Dave Stark
7556
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:56:23 -
[1907] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Protect the prestige is not working, it is just more expensive to get it. You need to work on your comprehension skills.
the reason for the diminishing returns is as stated; regardless of whether it achieves that end or not. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
259
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:56:25 -
[1908] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:does it favour everyone? yes. everyone is able to use this system to increase their total sp to a value higher than it was previously. bingo |
Dave Stark
7556
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:57:29 -
[1909] - Quote
gascanu wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:does it favour everyone? yes. everyone is able to use this system to increase their total sp to a value higher than it was previously. bingo
was his name'o! |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
65
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:57:37 -
[1910] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:And then i challenge you to find 300mil sp char now and you cannot find it. Yet with this "feature" it will be doable. But then you skip to commenting that SP does not matter which is not related to original argument at all. And so you just keep taking one sentence out of context and keep changing subject every time you cannot come up with and argument for a challenge. Why are you surprised then, when i treat you as troll?
You have spammed this thread a lot, yet I do not think you made a single proper counter argument to solid arguments which are done here. SO enjoy your troll treatment. what issue will a 300m sp character pose? and what should be done to prevent anyone ever owning a 300m sp character? how will a character with 300m sp be an issue such that this idea should never happen? 300m sp characters will, at some point, happen. why should that point never come to pass? Again you are changing the subject. Why not answer my question? Ah because then you would have to admit you are wrong... Game mechanics does not give you possibility to own 300 mils sp char at the moment. After this changes you will be able to have it ahead of the time regularly needed for it. It will cost but you will be able to have it. And that means that game mechanics will be changed. But please, keep repeating it will not, and keep your argument lacking posting, I am actually enjoying how you make yourself look like a clown :D And hopefully CCP will read this topic and after they see what people who support this idea think and say they will find out how ******** it is :D because your only question wasn't related to the topic we're discussing. you've yet to point out the issue caused by owning a 300m sp character.
And again avoiding, my point owning 300mil sp (300mils is just example, can be 290 or 400)character proves exactly that game mechanics are altered. The thing you are failing to counter argument for last 30 spam posts you made :D
I am starting to feel like i am arguing a person with special needs and while it is quite easy to show how shallow your posts are it is not amusing to think that you really might be one :/
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:57:58 -
[1911] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Once a veteran does it, a charismatic veteran can start a cult to make it so lots of people do the same.
In no time you have actual no fly zones as far in hisec as Jita. With less than 200 USD cost.
We already have skill plans for every single type of pilot in EVE. I don't understand what this change has anything to do with it.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
409
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:58:20 -
[1912] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Tippia wrote:except that the bazaar does not bypass any game mechanics. You cannot increase the SP on your character in bulk or make it acquire SP any faster through the use of the bazaar. All you can do is continue to acquire SP at the same maximum speed as everyone else on a character that has been built, still using that same maximum speed, by someone else. At no point in all of that are the mechanics that determine SP acquisition GÇö or indeed any mechancis GÇö bypassed, altered, or in any way tweaked. The Bazaar does bypass game mechanics. Purchasing a character instantly increases the SP pool in your account. Those SP in the character you bought weren't trained by you, and yet here they sit now in your account. It is exactly and fundamentally the same (in concept) to the SP boost you will receive from this change. I believe your issue with it is the flexibility, and I haven't seen you prove why this flexibility is bad for EVE.
Personally I would say that flexibility is good, but the possibilities to exploit or META the F out of the proposed system would need to be ironed out.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Dave Stark
7556
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:58:47 -
[1913] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:does it favour everyone? yes. everyone is able to use this system to increase their total sp to a value higher than it was previously. read the devlog plz. It states there it favours younger players. It is designed for everyone, but favours only younger players.
yes; which is very different to it being created for younger players. we've been through this. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26510
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:58:51 -
[1914] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:The Bazaar lets you buy SP you didn't train yourself. No. It lets you buy characters you didn't build on your account. They were still built, entirely in line with the game mechanics that determine how you can build a character.
Your getting access to that character does not in any way skip, bypass, or is even related to any game mechanics. It is a dev-approved EULA exemption; not a game function.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:59:23 -
[1915] - Quote
I hate this idea so much i even log in to reply to this post ...
Just no, it's a really bad idea
You can already pay to win with plex, or paying an high sp account via other players.
It will never stop or minimise the ammount of players who buy char illegally.
And how about the players who spend so much time training skills ? (like everyone not just old vet)
What the point when we will be able to train 100M sp in a day ?
The more money you'll make in game and the more sp you will be able to buy it's just game breaking.
Quote:we would be looking at a large web feature for browsing, buying, and selling characters
Just do that, people will be able to trade char, end of story, don't touch our LP. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
65
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:59:51 -
[1916] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Protect the prestige is not working, it is just more expensive to get it. You need to work on your comprehension skills.
the reason for the diminishing returns is as stated; regardless of whether it achieves that end or not.
read the devblog please. It says it protects, but it does not really do it. So it is fail on their side and (oh shocker) on yours as well. For you i have no worries as i understand that you have comprehension problems, but ccp coming up with such ideas is what worries me.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Dave Stark
7556
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:00:54 -
[1917] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:And again avoiding, my point owning 300mil sp (300mils is just example, can be 290 or 400)character proves exactly that game mechanics are altered. The thing you are failing to counter argument for last 30 spam posts you made :D
I am starting to feel like i am arguing a person with special needs and while it is quite easy to show how shallow your posts are it is not amusing to think that you really might be one :/
i;m not avoiding your point at all. i'm discussing the very point. you just seem to not want to discuss it.
game mechanics aren't altered. those characters will exist at some point anyway. unless owning a character with 300m sp will break the game it doesn't matter if some one owns it tomorrow, or in 2025.
there is no issue associated with owning 300m sp characters, as the game is designed such that owning a 300m sp character is the very intention of how the *current* mechanics work. |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
56
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:01:01 -
[1918] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Rawthorm wrote:You talk about bypassing mechanics but I think you ignore the difference between bypassing mechanics and mechanics evolving. warp to zero, scan changes, hell the addition of autopilot all "bypassed" the mechanics of the day, and you know what, they were all for the better. But this isn't a case of evolving GÇö it's a case of putting a paywall on letting some players work under vastly different conditions. If they wanted to evolve the mechanics, they would have made it universal: remove attributes; double (or something) training speed, possibly with some slow-down based on total SP; remove the remaining instances of SP loss. Bish bash bosh, evolved training with very similar effects. In short, they would actually have altered the underlying mechanic rather than put a cash-based layer on top of it, where the main purpose is to not be bothered by the mechanic to begin with. I use the word GÇ£bypassedGÇ¥ for a very specific reason: they are not actually changing the mechanic. They are only providing means to skip over some of the effects that players occasionally complain about. The actual reasons for the complaint are still there and still apply as much as ever to anyone who doesn't want to pay. Sibyyl wrote:The Bazaar does bypass game mechanics. Purchasing a character instantly increases the SP pool in your account. SP pool on your account is not a game mechanic. Player GÇö character access GÇö EULA. Character GÇö SP acquisition GÇö game mechanics. Don't confuse the two.
I hate to break it to you, but this isn't behind a paywall. If it was exclusively for people who hand over RL money then sure, but just like PLEX they can also be bought for ISK on the open market. At this point it's no more behind a paywall than say a Titan you currently can't afford.
I also think your really starting to abuse the term "game mechanic" as I think in your context it's really a non-issue. SP as a game mechanic determines what you can or can not fly. Buying a character means that me as a person can fly whatever ship I want and I think anyone who cares under which name I do it is really just trying to argue the toss for the sake of it.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
65
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:01:20 -
[1919] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:does it favour everyone? yes. everyone is able to use this system to increase their total sp to a value higher than it was previously. read the devlog plz. It states there it favours younger players. It is designed for everyone, but favours only younger players. yes; which is very different to it being created for younger players. we've been through this.
oh really
so they state it favours younger players but it is not made for them and at the same time it protects older players but it does not do it for real. And you can lean on such statement to come up with something good? :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Chigiku
Perkone Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:01:21 -
[1920] - Quote
I think it shouldn't be done, though if it does i would probably use & abuse it
I would prefer if it could be like skill transference instead of transforming any number of sp in unallocated one, twould avoid the low sp farm, people would still make char to sell those skills as people already do for character sale as a whole
though even that, seems dangerous to me!
as other people pointed twould give a pay to win free to play vibe to eve |
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:01:21 -
[1921] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sibyyl wrote:The Bazaar lets you buy SP you didn't train yourself. No. It lets you buy characters you didn't build on your account. They were still built, entirely in line with the game mechanics that determine how you can build a character. Your getting access to that character does not in any way skip, bypass, or is even related to any game mechanics. It is a dev-approved EULA exemption; not a game function.
You certainly place importance on that distinction, by why is it important?
Now characters and their SP are modular. Why is that bad?
And I wish I could shout you out
|
Dave Stark
7556
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:01:41 -
[1922] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Protect the prestige is not working, it is just more expensive to get it. You need to work on your comprehension skills.
the reason for the diminishing returns is as stated; regardless of whether it achieves that end or not. read the devblog please. It says it protects, but it does not really do it. So it is fail on their side and (oh shocker) on yours as well. For you i have no worries as i understand that you have comprehension problems, but ccp coming up with such ideas is what worries me.
doesn't matter if it achieves it or not. the reason is the same regardless of what it does or doesn't do. |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:02:04 -
[1923] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Laodell wrote:The choices you made during skill training are a permanent mark on the character and should be.
And now they won't be. Explain to me why that's bad.
Because you can't wish consequences away. Who you are, in game or out, is a reflection of the choices you or the previous owner made. That's part of the consequences, or balance if I may, of buying SP though the purchase of a new toon.
Just being able to abstract the purchase of the SP through whatever euphemism is still paying to win. There's some 'loss' in the equation that can be compensated by more cash but what's 10% of your SP when the exchange rate is so much more in favor of cash? Sure someone still has to buy the plexes with cash but not everyone does. For some free to play is a real thing. And this will only make that easier.
'Buying Sp through the Bazaar' has consequence to offset the time investment. All SP should have a balance that is not cash-based. |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
156
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:02:48 -
[1924] - Quote
Well, they say "Each peoples have the government it deserves."
It seems "Each playerbase has the game they deserve."
CCP, do whatever you want. People will swallow it as it seems.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Dave Stark
7556
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:03:30 -
[1925] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:does it favour everyone? yes. everyone is able to use this system to increase their total sp to a value higher than it was previously. read the devlog plz. It states there it favours younger players. It is designed for everyone, but favours only younger players. yes; which is very different to it being created for younger players. we've been through this. oh really so they state it favours younger players but it is not made for them and at the same time it protects older players but it does not do it for real. And you can lean on such statement to come up with something good? :D
no, it "WeGÇÖve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character." protects the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character. not "older players".
if you're going to ask leading questions at least have the decency to be correct in your quotations. |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
56
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:04:15 -
[1926] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sibyyl wrote:The Bazaar lets you buy SP you didn't train yourself. No. It lets you buy characters you didn't build on your account. They were still built, entirely in line with the game mechanics that determine how you can build a character. Your getting access to that character does not in any way skip, bypass, or is even related to any game mechanics. It is a dev-approved EULA exemption; not a game function.
Jump drives allow people to "bypass" the mechanic of using stargates for travel. Both characters still arrive at their end destination so whats the issue? I'm guessing you don't have one, so whats the issue with the same path for SP? It's not like those skills were not obtainable via a more convoluted path (IE waiting it out or buying a character to skip the process entirely) anyway? |
Alexander Renoir
Covenant Trading Agency
73
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:04:59 -
[1927] - Quote
Really CCP? You want to bring skillpoint- trading? And it isn't something other than skillpoint- trading for me! Its a daft idea in the beginning! It is sad to see what direction Eve goes.
May I ask if your terrific team, with such ideas, ever played EVE online? I mean longer than 1 year? Do they even know what eve online WAS standing for?
Perhaps it is time to move on ... to other games. I strongly recommend to trash the idea of skillpoint-trading at once. It is horrible, unnecessary and it is wrong on so many Levels. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
65
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:05:19 -
[1928] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:And again avoiding, my point owning 300mil sp (300mils is just example, can be 290 or 400)character proves exactly that game mechanics are altered. The thing you are failing to counter argument for last 30 spam posts you made :D
I am starting to feel like i am arguing a person with special needs and while it is quite easy to show how shallow your posts are it is not amusing to think that you really might be one :/ i;m not avoiding your point at all. i'm discussing the very point. you just seem to not want to discuss it. game mechanics aren't altered. those characters will exist at some point anyway. unless owning a character with 300m sp will break the game it doesn't matter if some one owns it tomorrow, or in 2025. there is no issue associated with owning 300m sp characters, as the game is designed such that owning a 300m sp character is the very intention of how the *current* mechanics work.
Let`s say 400mil instead of 300mil.
Does such character exists with current game mechanics - no. If they implement this next year will it be possible to have it - yes. What means that something which should not be able to happen before 2020 will be able to happen in 2016.
If this is not proof of altering game mechanics then I do not know what else to draw you. Maybe to start from traffic lights and basic colors? :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
211
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:05:25 -
[1929] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:It's not even remotely good for new ones - new players aren't going to be buying these packets; they wont be able to, since the price will be dictated by what some Trillionaire is willing to pay to level up his next Titan pilot instantly, or what some speculator imagines the price point will go up to .
The price will not be dictated by what some trillionaire is willing to pay. As soon as the price goes beyond what it costs to plex a character for the month so many people will start farming SP there wouldn't be enough isk in the game to buy it all, the price will be limited by plex prices.
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:Any new player joining the game already has to decide whether to ride the game as it is or buy PLEX to soften the isk-need at the beginning. But under this system that newbie now has to buy even more PLEX to get one of these packets too, or be left behind by those that can.
How awful for them, instead of being behind 99.9% of the population of eve they'll be behind 99.901% of the population of eve. I can see you really have the newbies interests at heart here.
Aralyn Cormallen wrote: Its an issue of perspective - some posters here think having a "pay to catch up" option will lure in more players, while people like me think a "pay or fall behind" as catastrophic for luring those same new players.
I see your point, but we all know that isn't what's going on here. CCP are not selling skills, they're letting players sell their skills and I think as long as that's clear it shouldn't be seen in a negative way
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
|
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
436
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:05:56 -
[1930] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:For people quitting in protest I remind them that Operation Magic School Bus does accept donations to help out the new players. Yes, this is a 'can I haz' post but it is one where the material will be put to good use, not just lining a wallet or hanger. Contract to me if you wish to donate.
m
People threaten to rage over everything these days. I don't see a reason to over this devblog as it is put out as a proposal to gather feedback and start a dialogue. People should always welcome such things.
I can understand some people's frustrations though as they associate every word that comes out from any employee of CCP as the company's policy. I'm not privy to their inner workings but I suspect they have many independent offices, teams and devs. Many of them seem to be misaligned and have different ideas about EVE.
If I thought that CCP as a compnay was seriously pushing for this idea I would be very worried. Everyone has their limit and there are some lines that should not be crossed. |
|
Dave Stark
7557
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:07:38 -
[1931] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:And again avoiding, my point owning 300mil sp (300mils is just example, can be 290 or 400)character proves exactly that game mechanics are altered. The thing you are failing to counter argument for last 30 spam posts you made :D
I am starting to feel like i am arguing a person with special needs and while it is quite easy to show how shallow your posts are it is not amusing to think that you really might be one :/ i;m not avoiding your point at all. i'm discussing the very point. you just seem to not want to discuss it. game mechanics aren't altered. those characters will exist at some point anyway. unless owning a character with 300m sp will break the game it doesn't matter if some one owns it tomorrow, or in 2025. there is no issue associated with owning 300m sp characters, as the game is designed such that owning a 300m sp character is the very intention of how the *current* mechanics work. Let`s say 400mil instead of 300mil. Does such character exists with current game mechanics - no. If they implement this next year will it be possible to have it - yes. What means that something which should not be able to happen before 2020 will be able to happen in 2016. If this is not proof of altering game mechanics then I do not know what else to draw you. Maybe to start from traffic lights and basic colors? :D
and why shouldn't it happen? what issue would arise from some one owning a 400m sp character tomorrow?
honestly - if you have a situation where a 400m sp character appearing tomorrow would be the thing to completely annihilate eve, i will shake your hand and proclaim that this was the worst idea ccp could have ever come up with.
so, let's hear it. |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1395
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:08:23 -
[1932] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:OK, I've calmed down slightly. Let's give you guys some specific feedback so that you understand what a ******* terrible idea this is.
I have an alt I bought on the bazaar years ago. He has 82 million SP. Much of it is focused on mining and reprocessing, skills I haven't used in years. As long as I'm a whale...
Step 1: Pump a ton of Aurum into CCP to buy 84 Transneural Skill Extractors. Step 2: Use them to create 84 Transneural Skill Packets for a total of 42 million SP. Step 3: Consume 25 of them myself to bring myself to 50 million SP, dumping my useless SP and focusing this alt on incursion-running. Step 4: Sell 59 Transneural Skill Packets on the market, making it more or less unnecessary for me to actually run incursions for a while since 59 of these are going to be worth a ton of ISK.
And that doesn't even get into the matter of using those 84 Packets to more or less instantly jump a new character from 0 to 40 million SP. Character ages and birth dates will become completely meaningless.
Again, I can do these things as long as I'm a whale and pump a ton of money into CCP for the 84 Transneural Skill Extractors.
Am I missing anything here? Who in God's name thought this was a good idea? Can we sell them to Riot?
Good points.
To answer your question a ccp that wants to make money thought this was a good idea. From what you describe that is what would happen - at least in the short term.
I think the long term problem with what you describe still needs to be stated. the fact that character ages are meaningless is not that big of a deal imo.
I think I would say the problem with this is people would no longer need any attachment to their character. You could always just start a new character and who knows who is who?
In a game like eve that relies on relationships that might be a real problem.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
65
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:08:50 -
[1933] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Protect the prestige is not working, it is just more expensive to get it. You need to work on your comprehension skills.
the reason for the diminishing returns is as stated; regardless of whether it achieves that end or not. read the devblog please. It says it protects, but it does not really do it. So it is fail on their side and (oh shocker) on yours as well. For you i have no worries as i understand that you have comprehension problems, but ccp coming up with such ideas is what worries me. doesn't matter if it achieves it or not. the reason is the same regardless of what it does or doesn't do.
It matters of course. Because if it achieves it, CCP statement is faulty and incorrect. Which makes the whole story stupid (like it is not already) . And if we cannot be sure in CCP`s consistency of their game mechanics or their statements, it wont take much time before game dies.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
211
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:09:59 -
[1934] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:For people quitting in protest I remind them that Operation Magic School Bus does accept donations to help out the new players. Yes, this is a 'can I haz' post but it is one where the material will be put to good use, not just lining a wallet or hanger. Contract to me if you wish to donate.
m People threaten to rage over everything these days. I don't see a reason to over this devblog as it is put out as a proposal to gather feedback and start a dialogue. People should always welcome such things. I can understand some people's frustrations though as they associate every word that comes out from any employee of CCP as the company's policy. I'm not privy to their inner workings but I suspect they have many independent offices, teams and devs. Many of them seem to be misaligned and have different ideas about EVE. If I thought that CCP as a compnay was seriously pushing for this idea I would be very worried. Everyone has their limit and there are some lines that should not be crossed.
What line are they crossing here that hasn't already been crossed?
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
|
Lelira Cirim
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
233
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:10:06 -
[1935] - Quote
Oh, this is exactly the opposite of what I thought the facebook link was talking about.
Because if you'd like to improve the Character Bazaar to be less like a bastard child of Tinder and Kijiji, and more like the in-game contract system, that'd be real swell!
This **** is ****. Thanks for asking. *steals slice of pizza*
Do not actively tank my patience.
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
183
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:10:11 -
[1936] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Laodell wrote:The choices you made during skill training are a permanent mark on the character and should be.
And now they won't be. Explain to me why that's bad. If you want a game with no consequences then why are you playing Eve?
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Dave Stark
7557
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:11:38 -
[1937] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Protect the prestige is not working, it is just more expensive to get it. You need to work on your comprehension skills.
the reason for the diminishing returns is as stated; regardless of whether it achieves that end or not. read the devblog please. It says it protects, but it does not really do it. So it is fail on their side and (oh shocker) on yours as well. For you i have no worries as i understand that you have comprehension problems, but ccp coming up with such ideas is what worries me. doesn't matter if it achieves it or not. the reason is the same regardless of what it does or doesn't do. It matters of course. Because if it achieves it, CCP statement is faulty and incorrect. Which makes the whole story stupid (like it is not already) . And if we cannot be sure in CCP`s consistency of their game mechanics or their statements, it wont take much time before game dies.
so what you're saying is that ccp are completely wide of the mark? you're welcome to think that. to be honest.
i don't think there's any prestige associated with owning a character for a long period of time - because of the character bazzar. anyone who wants one can have one, type of thing.
similarly there's nothing special about "having lots of sp" - because if you want lots of sp you can just go and buy it, all this new system does is make it less hassle.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
65
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:11:47 -
[1938] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
yes.
everyone is able to use this system to increase their total sp to a value higher than it was previously.
read the devlog plz. It states there it favours younger players. It is designed for everyone, but favours only younger players. yes; which is very different to it being created for younger players. we've been through this. oh really so they state it favours younger players but it is not made for them and at the same time it protects older players but it does not do it for real. And you can lean on such statement to come up with something good? :D no, it "WeGÇÖve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character." protects the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character. not "older players". if you're going to ask leading questions at least have the decency to be correct in your quotations.
it doesnt really matter, the point is that it protects prestige of high sp players (no matter how you call them) and it cannot do it. But again you try to twist it out :)
Thank you for your contribution on this. Because if CCP takes opinions here in consideration you will be the most responsible person it will not be implemented :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Robert Warner
Back Door Burglars The Otherworld
128
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:13:01 -
[1939] - Quote
Querns wrote:Robert Warner wrote:CCP Logibro wrote:[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img] The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside. While many of my compatriots will likely shun any notion of trading skill points, I must say the idea doesn't bother me (and yes I'm a player who has multiple characters over or approaching 200M SP). I don't mind certain ingrained mechanics being changed provided there is a rational reason behind it and that the solution is well conceived and well implemented (take note Fozzie sov). My main concern is in pricing of the packet itself in Aurum: we are already developing a serious issue with the price of PLEX and without being a doomsayer, the game has lost 25% of its active player base since February of this year (source: Eve-offline.net) - an extraordinary statistic by any reckoning. My primary interest is seeing a recovery in player activity, for the good of both myself and the Developer. While I'm sure CCP's accountants are eyeing this as a financial opportunity, I would very strongly suggest extreme caution in the introduction of further micro-transactions based on the PLEX/Aurum model at this time. Eve is currently in a very delicate position, following a number of somewhat dubious design changes, now requiring substantial time and investment to repair. If the game world loses critical mass of players, it may 'fail cascade' very quickly. If such a feature really must be introduced within the next year, careful planning of pricing will be required to ensure no further stress is placed on the transferable game time market. This is a fair point, but it's sort of looking at it the wrong way. Right now, to affect a transfer of SP to a person, one has to pay 2 PLEX just to do the transfer. This is in addition to whatever deal the two parties struck. Adding an aurum cost to skill extractors merely maintains this "tax;" it doesn't add a new source of pressure to PLEX. You can expect quite a bit of the pressure to PLEX applied by the Character Bazaar to be relieved as folks move to this more granular, personalizable system. Of course, the transfer won't be perfect; it could indeed increase total PLEX pressure, or maybe even reduce it overall. It remains to be seen.
This is indeed my concern. While the Charcter Bazaar will still be active, albeit at a lower level of acivity, the question becomes whether the in-game transfer of skill points via the Aurum vector translates to a higher consumption of transferrable game time (PLEX) in the overall sense. My distinct suspicion is that it probably will, that CCP realise this, and this is why CCP are thinking of introducing this feature in the first place.
My distinct impression is that not all is as it seems with this 'good intention' of introducing this feature so players can keep their character names. While it ostensibly appears noble in nature, I smell that the financial incentive is the driving force here and the dressing up of this idea by CCP Rise was upon request by the financial team. A Trojan horse, if you will.
|
Dave Stark
7557
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:14:09 -
[1940] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: it doesnt really matter, the point is that it protects prestige of high sp players (no matter how you call them) and it cannot do it. But again you try to twist it out :)
Thank you for your contribution on this. Because if CCP takes opinions here in consideration you will be the most responsible person it will not be implemented :)
twist out of what?
even if there weren't diminishing returns on this system it it would still prevent the situation where everyone has a 400m sp character. not everyone has infinitely deep pockets - and there isn't an infinite amount of SP to be distributed. |
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12693
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:14:19 -
[1941] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Well, they say "Each peoples have the government it deserves."
It seems "Each playerbase has the game they deserve."
CCP, do whatever you want. People will swallow it as it seems.
You're only half right. "People will swallow it as it seems" is the 1st half. "People will act like they weren't in favor of it and won't admit they were wrong about it when it proves to be a total disaster" is the other half.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
65
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:14:43 -
[1942] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:And again avoiding, my point owning 300mil sp (300mils is just example, can be 290 or 400)character proves exactly that game mechanics are altered. The thing you are failing to counter argument for last 30 spam posts you made :D
I am starting to feel like i am arguing a person with special needs and while it is quite easy to show how shallow your posts are it is not amusing to think that you really might be one :/ i;m not avoiding your point at all. i'm discussing the very point. you just seem to not want to discuss it. game mechanics aren't altered. those characters will exist at some point anyway. unless owning a character with 300m sp will break the game it doesn't matter if some one owns it tomorrow, or in 2025. there is no issue associated with owning 300m sp characters, as the game is designed such that owning a 300m sp character is the very intention of how the *current* mechanics work. Let`s say 400mil instead of 300mil. Does such character exists with current game mechanics - no. If they implement this next year will it be possible to have it - yes. What means that something which should not be able to happen before 2020 will be able to happen in 2016. If this is not proof of altering game mechanics then I do not know what else to draw you. Maybe to start from traffic lights and basic colors? :D and why shouldn't it happen? what issue would arise from some one owning a 400m sp character tomorrow? honestly - if you have a situation where a 400m sp character appearing tomorrow would be the thing to completely annihilate eve, i will shake your hand and proclaim that this was the worst idea ccp could have ever come up with. so, let's hear it.
It will obviously be doable, only question is if anyone wants to be #1 that badly.
I have already explained the importance of consistency in relations to your customers. Find a post and read it. Try to comprehend as well please :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Vollhov
Senators of Eridan Red Alliance
316
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:14:46 -
[1943] - Quote
The premium ships waiting long By slaying a NPCs giving more income.
Thanks you -í-íP Falcon "that helped to quit EVE"
Grand Empress Jamyl Sarum YC110
CCP can never come up with such a character as Jamyl Sarum.
"All these wayward children."
|
Dave Stark
7557
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:15:34 -
[1944] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:It will obviously be doable, only question is if anyone wants to be #1 that badly.
I have already explained the importance of consistency in relations to your customers. Find a post and read it. Try to comprehend as well please :)
yes - so what issue will there be when some one does do it?
what problem will that cause? |
Bloody2k
SKULL AND B0NES
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:15:49 -
[1945] - Quote
I fear that it was not the idea of CCP. Much more, I suspect that sponsors want to increase profits. |
sixteen 64
Perkone Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:16:45 -
[1946] - Quote
I've already said how I feel about the topic, just going to add, my account expires in 5 days, and I'm not renewing it all the time selling unallocated SP is a thing. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
88
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:18:01 -
[1947] - Quote
Orions Lord wrote:I have enough on this pvp character so if I sell 1 mont earned skill point does that equal me an plex. Then eve will be free to play for me.
I am sure CCP would love that loss of income.
I was thinking that myself, I only fly frigs and literally only train skills because I am paying the sub. I might as well just farm out all my new SPs that I am not going to use and plex my account from here on in, do CCP really want to offer more ways for people to stop subbing with real money ? Obviously someone has to pay real money but in my case that real money would go into my pocket and not CCPs.
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Uncle Dunk
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:18:59 -
[1948] - Quote
Hi,
-You can even buy them dank injectors for iskies too, so not exclusive to credit cards. Some people seem to be forgetting this.
-someone in here cares about someone having 300m sp and breaking the game, which shows you care about e-peen too much. Please consider the benefits in regards to the enjoyment of the game this will have.
-time on an active account is still the only thing that increases the net sp in the game. So there will definitely be a supply and demand instead of a bottomless CCP cashpit that vomits back sp.
-There will also be less multiple char trainings due to this and a decrease in total sp due to respecs. Your e-peen 100m+ char will thus be worth more.
btw CCP:
-If you do not want to limp the bittervet e-peen, you may want to introduce a hard cap, ie not able to inject after 120m sp. I don't care, but it might lower a lot of pitchforks |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
410
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:19:26 -
[1949] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:Reading comments and thinking about benefits and issues, I changed my mind from "interesting proposal" to "omg, it's a minefield".
Please add your pros and cons to the list below:
pros:
- pilots can get rid of unwanted skills (less important than it was when we had to pay for gradually more expensive medical clone updates)
- reduces boring waiting periods for long skill plans
- boost to new players ability to get into T2 ships as often required by PvP groups
- players having been unsubbed for a while can buy back training time (with the risk of unsubbing, because keeping up training is not a strict requirement anymore. Resubbing is less likely than getting back on an already subbed account) [post #1901 by RavenPaine]
cons:
- T3 pilots being able to immediately replace SP lost when their ship explodes changes the way T3 was designed to affect pilots.
- Newbs could skip entire parts of the game and learning experience to jump to a percieved end-game with possible disappointment. (losing the "looking foward to fly x" and replacing it by "... started playing last week, bought a Dread and it sucks, I quit")
- Rich alliances could bolster their ranks with higher SP pilots by simply buying them SP packs.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
65
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:20:28 -
[1950] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
the reason for the diminishing returns is as stated; regardless of whether it achieves that end or not.
read the devblog please. It says it protects, but it does not really do it. So it is fail on their side and (oh shocker) on yours as well. For you i have no worries as i understand that you have comprehension problems, but ccp coming up with such ideas is what worries me. doesn't matter if it achieves it or not. the reason is the same regardless of what it does or doesn't do. It matters of course. Because if it achieves it, CCP statement is faulty and incorrect. Which makes the whole story stupid (like it is not already) . And if we cannot be sure in CCP`s consistency of their game mechanics or their statements, it wont take much time before game dies. so what you're saying is that ccp are completely wide of the mark? you're welcome to think that. to be honest. i don't think there's any prestige associated with owning a character for a long period of time - because of the character bazzar. anyone who wants one can have one, type of thing. similarly there's nothing special about "having lots of sp" - because if you want lots of sp you can just go and buy it, all this new system does is make it less hassle.
they are obviously as they are stating something which can be bypassed.
You might not think there is a prestige there, as Dr Caymus what he thinks and why did he put efforts to be top 1 all these years? And you cannot find such characters on bazaar.
You cannot buy more sp. I have 244mil and I cannot buy sp to become top 1. Until the new game mechanics change.
If i needed i could buy more different chars for different roles but I cannot increase SP on my main.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:22:20 -
[1951] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
Now characters and their SP are modular. Why is that bad?
Not trying to belittle you in any way here, but here's a very relevant truth:
You haven't spent the time to grow a character for the years the older players have, to be able to appreciate the audacity of your statement. You cannot be asked to hold a valid opinion on a topic you have no frame of reference to understand.
'Why is that Bad', Ask yourself that again when you have been here 10 years.
Lets put this in another perspective. In those 10 years I have spent 1,794 for my game time. I have 114,343,548 SP in combat, exploration, commerce and industry based skills. That breaks down to about 63,736 SP per Dollar.
For less than a grand I can have a Titan pilot which I spent the last 10 years getting to. All I need is the ISK for the actual Skill book.
I could sell this toon for a LOT of cash for that. with this proposed change, it would make more monetary sense to just liquidate all that investment.
With the proposed change there's no incentive to encourage me to spend any time training for anything complex, for the reasons I and others have already stated in previous posts if you weren't so single-mindedly deliberately ignoring those valid points in favor of your own opinion on the matter.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
65
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:22:42 -
[1952] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: it doesnt really matter, the point is that it protects prestige of high sp players (no matter how you call them) and it cannot do it. But again you try to twist it out :)
Thank you for your contribution on this. Because if CCP takes opinions here in consideration you will be the most responsible person it will not be implemented :)
twist out of what? even if there weren't diminishing returns on this system it it would still prevent the situation where everyone has a 400m sp character. not everyone has infinitely deep pockets - and there isn't an infinite amount of SP to be distributed.
It is not important at all are they high sp players or old players, both are referring to the same, yet you find a way to take it out of context and make it look like that is the whole point. Trolls used to be banned on these forums on pat, game aint going sh*t only ingame it seems :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:23:29 -
[1953] - Quote
I sense a disturbance in the force. As if a thousand lvl 3 defender missiles skills cried out, and were suddenly silenced.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1735
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:24:17 -
[1954] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: CSM folks who oppose the change, or anyone else who's against it.
Can you point me to a cogent argument not using subjective buzzwords like "pay to win" why this change is bad?
Here is my list of arguments against this change:
SP source and price:
There are basically two possibilities of how SP will end up on the market:
1) vet who parts with a skill he does not use anymore and make it to ISK 2) SP farm alt
Since the first resource is very limited we will end up in a situation where the main source of SP are the SP farm alts. This alts basically consume a PLEX and produce SP to sell on the market.
With the ISK they buy PLEX again which will be transformed into SP again, for free gametime (there is another concern about this on it's own: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6102179#post6102179) and excess ISK. Since the SP creation is coupled to PLEX this will scale no matter how expensive the PLEX gets. No one in his right mind will sell for less than it costs to produce the SP pack.
So this will basically produce a lot of SP packs, but it will raise the PLEX price into new heights. If the PLEX price rises, so will the SP pack prices. There is no way a new player will be able to get enough ISK to get this SP. They will have to purchase a PLEX for $ to get them.
So basically the newbros will pay the gametime of the vets at a horrible price so they can catch up a little.
Appearance:
Now with this in mind think about how this will look to a new player coming from some other game.
EVE is a subscription time. He will learn that he accumulates SP at a slow rate, but he can purchase SP from the market as well.. wait, that sounds like some F2P paywall.. but it's a subscription game WTF... How do you think he will react if he actually looks up how much the SP for one simple level V skill will cost him?
Would you invest 15$ for some ingame skill you don't know how useful it actually is in a game you just started. Or will you quit the game and shake your head about why you should pay so much for a skill in a subscription game?
This will benefit players with a lot of ISK or players with a really really big RL wallet. But it will in no way help a new player. It will scare them away.
PLEX price:
This will radically increse the PLEX price, since there will be a big demand for SP and they will be created from PLEX. So a lot of players who can not affort the game with RL $ will basically be replaced with some farm alt which consumes the PLEX instead. Because the ISK price will just be to damn high for most of the players who not sell the created SP
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
65
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:25:00 -
[1955] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:It will obviously be doable, only question is if anyone wants to be #1 that badly.
I have already explained the importance of consistency in relations to your customers. Find a post and read it. Try to comprehend as well please :) yes - so what issue will there be when some one does do it? what problem will that cause?
Beside making CCP statement void I am sure it will create unrest among players. As not having consistency and not beaing able to lean on something you planned to commit in a long term is not going to work. Meaning losing more players, meaning dead eve.
But oh, i already wrote about this like 50 pages ago and mentioned it like 10 times after it again, seems you are really failing on both reading & comprehension :/
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7557
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:25:38 -
[1956] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:they are obviously as they are stating something which can be bypassed.
You might not think there is a prestige there, as Dr Caymus what he thinks and why did he put efforts to be top 1 all these years? And you cannot find such characters on bazaar.
You cannot buy more sp. I have 244mil and I cannot buy sp to become top 1. Until the new game mechanics change.
If i needed i could buy more different chars for different roles but I cannot increase SP on my main.
why did he put the effort in? probably the same reason roger next door collects stamps.
not being able to buy #1 spot on the sp leaderboard isn't going to break the game. it's not going to cause everyone to quit, it's not going to cause the servers to die.
no, but you can change who your main is. you're free to change it to one with more SP if you can afford it. - not that it matters, there's no situation where you can't buy a pilot that can do whatever you need a new pilot/more sp for, anyway. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
65
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:27:57 -
[1957] - Quote
Laodell wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
Now characters and their SP are modular. Why is that bad?
Not trying to belittle you in any way here, but here's a very relevant truth: You haven't spent the time to grow a character for the years the older players have, to be able to appreciate the audacity of your statement. You cannot be asked to hold a valid opinion on a topic you have no frame of reference to understand. 'Why is that Bad', Ask yourself that again when you have been here 10 years. Lets put this in another perspective. In those 10 years I have spent 1,794 for my game time. I have 114,343,548 SP in combat, exploration, commerce and industry based skills. That breaks down to about 63,736 SP per Dollar. For less than a grand I can have a Titan pilot which I spent the last 10 years getting to. All I need is the ISK for the actual Skill book. I could sell this toon for a LOT of cash for that. with this proposed change, it would make more monetary sense to just liquidate all that investment. With the proposed change there's no incentive to encourage me to spend any time training for anything complex, for the reasons I and others have already stated in previous posts if you weren't so single-mindedly deliberately ignoring those valid points in favor of your own opinion on the matter.
What if I tell you that you can actually read the whole topic and find plenty of solid arguments against this proposal before just dissing some comments you read. 300mil sp is just one example of altering game mechanics and the part about sp is not even the most important one.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7557
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:28:21 -
[1958] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:It will obviously be doable, only question is if anyone wants to be #1 that badly.
I have already explained the importance of consistency in relations to your customers. Find a post and read it. Try to comprehend as well please :) yes - so what issue will there be when some one does do it? what problem will that cause? Beside making CCP statement void I am sure it will create unrest among players. As not having consistency and not beaing able to lean on something you planned to commit in a long term is not going to work. Meaning losing more players, meaning dead eve. But oh, i already wrote about this like 50 pages ago and mentioned it like 10 times after it again, seems you are really failing on both reading & comprehension :/
the very nature of the system ensures that pestige is maintained. only a limited number of people can have that "super high sp" like 300 or 400m sp. we're not creating sp out of thin air.
there's still going to be prestige associated with long standing accounts - remember fanfest? 4 guys who hadn't unsubbed once since the release being given nvidia titan graphics cards?
a lot of **** ccp has said has turned to dust - and the game's still going. |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
436
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:30:03 -
[1959] - Quote
I'm sure someone probably already mentioned this but this is nothing short of RMT to skill up.
Basically, you get as many alts as your wallet allows. You start training them and every 5mil SP you strip their SP and inject into your main. You can basically have alt farms to win. With character bazaar or just training alts, you can gain an advantage but they're still stuck in their respective speeds, roles and skills. This is LITERALLY paying $ to accelerate skill training with no limit to it. The only limit is how much you're willing to spend to accelerate your skill training. |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:31:43 -
[1960] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:Jill Xelitras wrote:Reading comments and thinking about benefits and issues, I changed my mind from "interesting proposal" to "omg, it's a minefield".
Please add your pros and cons to the list below: pros:
- pilots can get rid of unwanted skills (less important than it was when we had to pay for gradually more expensive medical clone updates)
- reduces boring waiting periods for long skill plans
- boost to new players ability to get into T2 ships as often required by PvP groups
- players having been unsubbed for a while can buy back training time (with the risk of unsubbing, because keeping up training is not a strict requirement anymore. Resubbing is less likely than getting back on an already subbed account) [post #1901 by RavenPaine]
cons:
- T3 pilots being able to immediately replace SP lost when their ship explodes changes the way T3 was designed to affect pilots.
- Newbs could skip entire parts of the game and learning experience to jump to a percieved end-game with possible disappointment. (losing the "looking foward to fly x" and replacing it by "... started playing last week, bought a Dread and it sucks, I quit")
- Rich alliances could bolster their ranks with higher SP pilots by simply buying them SP packs.
equality.
Cons:
- Rich alliances can now hold space indefinitely.
- When I joined Eve everyone had the same start on life. We were all equal to build our empire. Trading SP destroys that
If you are going to allow SP Trading, then make all ship losses take SP away. Then CCP can harvest even more cash, and penalize the poor even more. For some of us, 14.95 and our Internet connection is all we can afford to entertain ourselves. |
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Dave Stark
7557
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:31:55 -
[1961] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: it doesnt really matter, the point is that it protects prestige of high sp players (no matter how you call them) and it cannot do it. But again you try to twist it out :)
Thank you for your contribution on this. Because if CCP takes opinions here in consideration you will be the most responsible person it will not be implemented :)
twist out of what? even if there weren't diminishing returns on this system it it would still prevent the situation where everyone has a 400m sp character. not everyone has infinitely deep pockets - and there isn't an infinite amount of SP to be distributed. It is not important at all are they high sp players or old players, both are referring to the same, yet you find a way to take it out of context and make it look like that is the whole point. Trolls used to be banned on these forums on pat, game aint going sh*t only ingame it seems :D
high sp, and old are not the same.
some one who made an account 10 years ago and left it unsubbed is old, but not high sp. there's a difference between the two already, before we add this mechanic. |
Nixon Bum
Dont Fly On An Empty Stomach
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:33:01 -
[1962] - Quote
Sooo...... Jita riot 2.0 anyone? |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
66
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:33:07 -
[1963] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:they are obviously as they are stating something which can be bypassed.
You might not think there is a prestige there, as Dr Caymus what he thinks and why did he put efforts to be top 1 all these years? And you cannot find such characters on bazaar.
You cannot buy more sp. I have 244mil and I cannot buy sp to become top 1. Until the new game mechanics change.
If i needed i could buy more different chars for different roles but I cannot increase SP on my main. why did he put the effort in? probably the same reason roger next door collects stamps. not being able to buy #1 spot on the sp leaderboard isn't going to break the game. it's not going to cause everyone to quit, it's not going to cause the servers to die. no, but you can change who your main is. you're free to change it to one with more SP if you can afford it. - not that it matters, there's no situation where you can't buy a pilot that can do whatever you need a new pilot/more sp for, anyway.
Because the game seemed to be consistent. So it looked like it was worth putting in effort. By changing that, CCP sends a message to the player base that when it comes to money there is no consistency. It`s all about the benjamins babe. Problem is that they can only see short term yield of money and fail to foresee what will happen in the long run.
Not everyone will quit because of it, it is not going to break a game imediatelly but it will surely make some people quit immediately and others to drop long term plans for the game as they cannot lean on it. So, yes more and more people will quit, causing less and less money for ccp and in the end the servers are going to die...
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
66
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:34:40 -
[1964] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: it doesnt really matter, the point is that it protects prestige of high sp players (no matter how you call them) and it cannot do it. But again you try to twist it out :)
Thank you for your contribution on this. Because if CCP takes opinions here in consideration you will be the most responsible person it will not be implemented :)
twist out of what? even if there weren't diminishing returns on this system it it would still prevent the situation where everyone has a 400m sp character. not everyone has infinitely deep pockets - and there isn't an infinite amount of SP to be distributed. It is not important at all are they high sp players or old players, both are referring to the same, yet you find a way to take it out of context and make it look like that is the whole point. Trolls used to be banned on these forums on pat, game aint going sh*t only ingame it seems :D high sp, and old are not the same. some one who made an account 10 years ago and left it unsubbed is old, but not high sp. there's a difference between the two already, before we add this mechanic.
This is the essence of your posting, grabbing the least important part and discussing it like cruicial. Of course everyone understood it as high sp players. Though again with your comprehension, maybe i should really draw all the details carefully.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7557
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:35:03 -
[1965] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:I'm sure someone probably already mentioned this but this is nothing short of RMT to skill up.
Basically, you get as many alts as your wallet allows. You start training them and every 5mil SP you strip their SP and inject into your main. You can basically have alt farms to win. With character bazaar or just training alts, you can gain an advantage but they're still stuck in their respective speeds, roles and skills. This is LITERALLY paying $ to accelerate skill training with no limit to it. The only limit is how much you're willing to spend to accelerate your skill training.
so, your issue is what exactly? that it's a paid service, or you can have as much sp as you want? what exactly is the grip here?
we know how the system works, there's a whole devblog telling us that. |
Pic'n dor
Wild Sentinels Honorable Third Party
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:35:46 -
[1966] - Quote
The only point missing is the price of the SP extractor. On the other hand, let's try to put a market price on a SP Pack.
My hypothesis : 500k SP in fully in full remap/implant setup is reach within a 7/8 days. We can speculate that skill trainign to extract them gonna be a carreer path. So a packet is 1/4 of a plex time. At current price : this would get into the 300M isk
So from 350k SP to 5M, you need 9 packs >(or 9 weeks of training) which would be 2.7B isk That means a new player have to make 50M per week in the 4 or 5 first week of EVE ohhh but wait :
Quote:Trial characters may not consume Skill Packets
That means in the first 3 weeks of eve, you can't inject !! that means you are able to consume them for around 6 weeks only to get full 500k !
If you are able to get 300M per week (which is not possible for new players whatever game carreer you take), well, you will only take 3 packs : 3 weeks of trial, +1 pack per week + self training per week : at week 7 you reach 5M SP
So now is my question :
- How is this feature good for new players since market price hypothesis is not compatible with new players - Is it intended to allow wealthy average SP player to fine tune their skills to take over new players ? - How do you expect new players to get to know this feature when they already have 1 billion thing to get used to when you start this game ? (Some vets still don't understand dominion sov and far more are lost with fozziesov) ( i won't speak of rules of engagement in highsec) - Why would a 5M+ SP player would pay for 400k SP which would be 6 days of training when he can save the same amount of money to allow him to play for 7/8 days ? - Why would we give the SuperCaps pilote a career path to make money when the already have reach suffcient wealth to get into the finest ships of the game with the right amount of skills ?
We should focus and get the NPE at top level and allow new comers to feel they are part of something bigger.
COUCOU TOUCHE TOUCHE
|
Astroyka
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
182
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:36:55 -
[1967] - Quote
We got 99 pages and we still ain't done.
Astroyka
A Mirkur Draug'Tyr pilot, fighting against slavery in New Eden
www.astroyka.net
@Astroyka
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:37:51 -
[1968] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Also: There are a percentage of the player base that don't really play any more, but they keep the account subbed so they can keep skilling. This proposal would let them drop the subscription, because they could just buy the SP later. At this juncture though, "later" might never happen. Most subscriptions would most likely never re-sub. This "later" makes no sense. Why somebody need to wait for SP injenction? I think there're much more people droped the game because they lost interest while waiting. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
66
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:38:41 -
[1969] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:It will obviously be doable, only question is if anyone wants to be #1 that badly.
I have already explained the importance of consistency in relations to your customers. Find a post and read it. Try to comprehend as well please :) yes - so what issue will there be when some one does do it? what problem will that cause? Beside making CCP statement void I am sure it will create unrest among players. As not having consistency and not beaing able to lean on something you planned to commit in a long term is not going to work. Meaning losing more players, meaning dead eve. But oh, i already wrote about this like 50 pages ago and mentioned it like 10 times after it again, seems you are really failing on both reading & comprehension :/ the very nature of the system ensures that pestige is maintained. only a limited number of people can have that "super high sp" like 300 or 400m sp. we're not creating sp out of thin air. there's still going to be prestige associated with long standing accounts - remember fanfest? 4 guys who hadn't unsubbed once since the release being given nvidia titan graphics cards? a lot of **** ccp has said has turned to dust - and the game's still going.
It is not maintained. If you drop from #1 to #2, you lost everything you did for years. Even if only one person gets above you, you lose your #1 spot. There is still going to be prestige for top100 accounts but all those who lose their positions in top10 are going to be quite pissed off.
And if Dr Caymus quits because of this, I will be first to follow him to show my support. And I do hope other top players will join as well to send "thanks for screwing us" message to CCP.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7557
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:40:20 -
[1970] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:they are obviously as they are stating something which can be bypassed.
You might not think there is a prestige there, as Dr Caymus what he thinks and why did he put efforts to be top 1 all these years? And you cannot find such characters on bazaar.
You cannot buy more sp. I have 244mil and I cannot buy sp to become top 1. Until the new game mechanics change.
If i needed i could buy more different chars for different roles but I cannot increase SP on my main. why did he put the effort in? probably the same reason roger next door collects stamps. not being able to buy #1 spot on the sp leaderboard isn't going to break the game. it's not going to cause everyone to quit, it's not going to cause the servers to die. no, but you can change who your main is. you're free to change it to one with more SP if you can afford it. - not that it matters, there's no situation where you can't buy a pilot that can do whatever you need a new pilot/more sp for, anyway. Because the game seemed to be consistent. So it looked like it was worth putting in effort. By changing that, CCP sends a message to the player base that when it comes to money there is no consistency. It`s all about the benjamins babe. Problem is that they can only see short term yield of money and fail to foresee what will happen in the long run. Not everyone will quit because of it, it is not going to break a game imediatelly but it will surely make some people quit immediately and others to drop long term plans for the game as they cannot lean on it. So, yes more and more people will quit, causing less and less money for ccp and in the end the servers are going to die...
i'm going to stun you. i'm going to agree with you.
stay with me here; what happens when you melt down your alts in to plex packages and inject them all in to your main? oh right. you don't need those 30 accounts any more, better unsub them. that's 30 subscriptions they've just lost.
i don't need a carrier alt, a dread alt, etc - i can have it all on one character now. one account. one subscription.
then again, i'm sure some one at ccp has weighed up lost alts vs microtransaction revenue and gone "**** alts".
face it, the whole industry is shifting to micro transactions. there are a very small handful of games left operating the old "subscription model" style game - is it time we just moved on and accepted micro transactions are the way eve funds itself? |
|
Terra Chrall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
54
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:41:35 -
[1971] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside. Please also read this reminder on our forum rules ~ ISD Decoy
What if you changed the idea a bit: Extractor -500,000 SP from a character. Packet - Queue boosted by +50,000 SP/Hour for 10 hours (before diminishing returns). They have booster packs for new characters already, this could use a similar mechanic. The diminishing return idea could be kept or not as the SP/hr gain is capped.
Allow stacking but it only increases duration not SP/hr, So a character would gain a max bonus of 1,200,000 SP per day if they used multiple packets. Of course all numbers are examples and could be tweaked any direction. |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
437
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:42:57 -
[1972] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:they are obviously as they are stating something which can be bypassed.
You might not think there is a prestige there, as Dr Caymus what he thinks and why did he put efforts to be top 1 all these years? And you cannot find such characters on bazaar.
You cannot buy more sp. I have 244mil and I cannot buy sp to become top 1. Until the new game mechanics change.
If i needed i could buy more different chars for different roles but I cannot increase SP on my main. why did he put the effort in? probably the same reason roger next door collects stamps. not being able to buy #1 spot on the sp leaderboard isn't going to break the game. it's not going to cause everyone to quit, it's not going to cause the servers to die. no, but you can change who your main is. you're free to change it to one with more SP if you can afford it. - not that it matters, there's no situation where you can't buy a pilot that can do whatever you need a new pilot/more sp for, anyway. Because the game seemed to be consistent. So it looked like it was worth putting in effort. By changing that, CCP sends a message to the player base that when it comes to money there is no consistency. It`s all about the benjamins babe. Problem is that they can only see short term yield of money and fail to foresee what will happen in the long run. Not everyone will quit because of it, it is not going to break a game imediatelly but it will surely make some people quit immediately and others to drop long term plans for the game as they cannot lean on it. So, yes more and more people will quit, causing less and less money for ccp and in the end the servers are going to die...
I always said that if events surrounding Incarna were stretched out over many months and expansions that I doubt they would culminate in Jita Riots. I think the effect would be the same though. Slow and gradual disenchantment with the game and gradual decline. I think this is what has been happening for a few years now. |
Dave Stark
7557
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:43:16 -
[1973] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:It is not maintained. If you drop from #1 to #2, you lost everything you did for years. Even if only one person gets above you, you lose your #1 spot. There is still going to be prestige for top100 accounts but all those who lose their positions in top10 are going to be quite pissed off.
And if Dr Caymus quits because of this, I will be first to follow him to show my support. And I do hope other top players will join as well to send "thanks for screwing us" message to CCP.
what you did for years? all you did for the last 12 or so years was have a positive bank balance when the direct debit went out of your account.
being #1 just means you were the first person to make an account of the remaining subscribers. not being funny but that's not exactly something that really means anything.
frankly, the first person to buy their way to every skill at rank V probably means more because it means they're good at making isk in game, or they're good at making dollars and cents in real life. either of those are worth more than "i made an account before you did, nar nar na nar nar".
*shrug* |
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
211
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:45:12 -
[1974] - Quote
Pic'n dor wrote:The only point missing is the price of the SP extractor. On the other hand, let's try to put a market price on a SP Pack. My hypothesis : 500k SP in fully in full remap/implant setup is reach within a 7/8 days. We can speculate that skill trainign to extract them gonna be a carreer path. So a packet is 1/4 of a plex time. At current price : this would get into the 300M isk So from 350k SP to 5M, you need 9 packs >(or 9 weeks of training) which would be 2.7B isk That means a new player have to make 50M per week in the 4 or 5 first week of EVE ohhh but wait : Quote:Trial characters may not consume Skill Packets That means in the first 3 weeks of eve, you can't inject !! that means you are able to consume them for around 6 weeks only to get full 500k ! If you are able to get 300M per week (which is not possible for new players whatever game carreer you take), well, you will only take 3 packs : 3 weeks of trial, +1 pack per week + self training per week : at week 7 you reach 5M SP So now is my question : - How is this feature good for new players since market price hypothesis is not compatible with new players - Is it intended to allow wealthy average SP player to fine tune their skills to take over new players ? - How do you expect new players to get to know this feature when they already have 1 billion thing to get used to when you start this game ? (Some vets still don't understand dominion sov and far more are lost with fozziesov) ( i won't speak of rules of engagement in highsec) - Why would a 5M+ SP player would pay for 400k SP which would be 6 days of training when he can save the same amount of money to allow him to play for 7/8 days ? - Why would we give the SuperCaps pilote a career path to make money when the already have reach suffcient wealth to get into the finest ships of the game with the right amount of skills ? We should focus and get the NPE at top level and allow new comers to feel they are part of something bigger.
350mil is the TOP price based on plex values, it cannot go higher, but it can go much lower. The top price would be assuming all characters selling SP were doing nothing else of any value just farming SP... but in most cases this will be used to sell excess SP from indy toons, already maxed toons, station trading toons, PI toons etc and the acceptable price will be much much lower especially at the start when everyone starts liquidating their unwanted skills.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
|
Laodell
Executable Inc.
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:45:27 -
[1975] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
I always said that if events surrounding Incarna were stretched out over many months and expansions they probably would not culminate in Jita Riots. I think the effect would be the same though. Slow and gradual disenchantment with the game and gradual decline. I think this is what has been happening for a few years now.
Proof of your statement can be seen in the drop of activity in the recruitment channels over the years. It used to scroll by faster than you could read it. Now, it barely moves. |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
411
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:46:02 -
[1976] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:Reading comments and thinking about benefits and issues, I changed my mind from "interesting proposal" to "omg, it's a minefield".
Please add your pros and cons to the list below:
pros:
- pilots can get rid of unwanted skills (less important than it was when we had to pay for gradually more expensive medical clone updates)
- reduces boring waiting periods for long skill plans
- boost to new players ability to get into T2 ships as often required by PvP groups
- players having been unsubbed for a while can buy back training time (with the risk of unsubbing, because keeping up training is not a strict requirement anymore. Resubbing is less likely than getting back on an already subbed account) [post #1901 by RavenPaine]
cons:
- T3 pilots being able to immediately replace SP lost when their ship explodes changes the way T3 was designed to affect pilots.
- Newbs could skip entire parts of the game and learning experience to jump to a percieved end-game with possible disappointment. (losing the "looking foward to fly x" and replacing it by "... started playing last week, bought a Dread and it sucks, I quit")
- Rich alliances could bolster their ranks with higher SP pilots by simply buying them SP packs.
- Possible meta / exploits: farming SP with PLEXed alts to sell SP. (with likely PLEX price increase at a disadvantage to new players facing sub-subscription based game with P2W mechanics) [Ima WreckU] post #
- a part from PLEX and character Bazar allowing new players to circumvent character progression, new players would immediately face unequal starting conditions as opposed to the level playing field it is now [Laodell] post #
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:46:54 -
[1977] - Quote
Seems to me like its a glossed over way of pay2win again like alot are doing of late, i packed in wow with there instaboost 90's.
If they introduced this BS why dont they save themselves a whole lot of coding and just say 1plex or equivalent aur for 1 mill sp's .... way easier and they'll be getting folks reaching for there CC's.
Another game gone down the shitter if this happens. |
Pic'n dor
Wild Sentinels Honorable Third Party
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:47:04 -
[1978] - Quote
This features will also have negative effect on plex market :
Every vet got a full ton of unused alt (mining or whatever) with cool names they don't want to sell. They gonna convert SP pool in alts into game time with plex for their mains.
COUCOU TOUCHE TOUCHE
|
Starbuck05
Warmongering Space Invaders Criminal Intentions.
330
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:47:40 -
[1979] - Quote
This is a bad ideea because you know it will get abused...
Players should not have the ability to instantly train certain skills at cost no matter how sweet the deal is..most of us had and keep having to w8 real time to train for what we want and imo its half the fun of the game getting there with patiance & EXPERIENCE ...
Sure if the rich guys want a shortcut they can buy toons already trained for specific stuff bu then as its been pointed out you get the drawbacks of that toon.
The system works as it is...why change it ?
Just because i am blond does not make me stoooopid !
Warmongering space Invaders PvP corp looking for pilots ( Low Sec )
|
Bradstone
Caldari Advanced War Technologies
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:48:52 -
[1980] - Quote
Bad bad bad idea. -10 |
|
Killua Zoldyck
Iskursions
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:50:08 -
[1981] - Quote
I have already posted my agreement to this Idea once but I would like to go into some detail as to why I think so. Eve in and of itself is universe always evolving and adapting to the changes happening within it, the basis behind this in lore is that in the game we are all humans fighting a never ceasing war so as time goes on and intelligence is gathered we make leaps in innovation to accommodate. I.e. developer patches.
The ability to essentially rearrange our neural pathways in a universe where it is already common as day and night to have your consciousness stripped from one body and placed in the next seems to me a natural progression of events. We as humans in this world are constantly studying ways to improve ourselves and the way we do things, why should the humans in Eve be any different?
By asking for stagnation in the area of capsuler science you are basically saying that the human race was smart enough to get this far but unable to improve beyond. We need ideas such as this accompanied with change in game, it not only adds to the experience of the individual player but Eve as a whole. I would even like to see the future updates move in such a way as to show the innovative industrial spirit that is inherent in the human race as I'm sure it has not diminished in New Eden. Such as more a more detailed focus of the going ons of the NPC world of Eve, true wars going on that players can hop into a system and watch or specific advances in tech countering a New Eden.
The thought of everything that happened in Eve came from Eve is what brought me to this game and I would love to see more of it, essentially making everything even the Dev patches part of lore. The immersive experience I craved and found here in New Eden I only want to see grow and prosper. I've come to love this game in the time I've been here and plan to keep playing for years to come whatever road you end up taking Devs so this lone player will end this with a thank you for all the work and crap you put up with. |
Dave Stark
7557
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:50:12 -
[1982] - Quote
Starbuck05 wrote:Players should not have the ability to instantly train certain skills at cost no matter how sweet the deal is
but, there is a cost... the cost of training the sp, the cost of extracting the sp, the sp lost due to diminishing returns etc.
there's a whole host of costs in lieu of "having a character name you hate and a potentially tainted history". |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
66
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:50:57 -
[1983] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
i'm going to stun you. i'm going to agree with you.
stay with me here; what happens when you melt down your alts in to plex packages and inject them all in to your main? oh right. you don't need those 30 accounts any more, better unsub them. that's 30 subscriptions they've just lost.
i don't need a carrier alt, a dread alt, etc - i can have it all on one character now. one account. one subscription.
then again, i'm sure some one at ccp has weighed up lost alts vs microtransaction revenue and gone "**** alts".
face it, the whole industry is shifting to micro transactions. there are a very small handful of games left operating the old "subscription model" style game - is it time we just moved on and accepted micro transactions are the way eve funds itself?
Stunned :D
That is the part I am worried about and why I am speaking here. It seems to me that they have not run proper analytic approach nor that they have considered all side effects as this is very bad decision in the long run.
I do not think EVE will not work well with so much focus in micro transaction. Either they should find some new unique (eve-like) way of those micro transactions or they should have find other ways to keep the player base and make the game "healthy" again. Since this as the first (newer) step toward that is not going to be successful while it will create tectonic changes to players mindsets.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
shaun 27
Bulldog Industry
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:51:01 -
[1984] - Quote
In 9 years playing eve this is certainly a new low for ccp if they introduce this type of system. Either their under serious pressure from investors which it clearly looks like it or their having another walking in stations moment.
As far as im concerned you already messed up industry, i got over 30mil sp their and now i can build stuff quicker wooooohoooo but theirs already an oversupply. so those advanced skills you used to have, you know the advanced small ship construction which allowed you to build assult frigates and the likes, which i spent time training to lvl 5 is not worth it any more completely pointless. All that sp i could have put into training other races but no i stuck with 1 thing.
Seriously i knew when they released ship skins were be having stuff like this. Next it will be t3 ammo 1 plex you get 50000000 worth and it does 400% Bouses to damage.
Pay to win.
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
191
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:51:36 -
[1985] - Quote
This is a terrible idea, but kudos to Rise for having the nerve to post it |
Truckstop Hooker
Tubular Perforating and Manufacturing
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:52:08 -
[1986] - Quote
A lot of people say "skill > SP" and I'm sure most of the same people who say that are complaining about the proposal. Hilarious.
What's the big fear anyway? Some guy who has never played EVE before is going to spend $1000 to buy plexes, put them on the market, use the money to buy SP, and then subsequently die in an officer fit vindicator in Jita because he has a lot SP and no skills?
Another complaint is "it will become pay to win!". Isn't that what EVE already is? Buy high SP character from character bazaar, have friends buy high SP character from character bazaar, buy expensive flashy ships with deadspace mods, then gank low SP player in garbage ship. (value of characters based on SP + skills + implants > low SP character + no skills + no implants + bad fit).
Another pay to win example: OGB - buy another account to use OGB, win almost all engagements where the other guy doesn't have OGB.
Etc. |
Emila Airhart
Second Battlegroup Nerfed Alliance Go Away
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:52:22 -
[1987] - Quote
can you wait on killing eve for me as a player, till after star citizen comes out (even that has a better outlook and its vaporware) till it suddenly appears, this is something i will use my wallet to vote with if this is implemented,
Once you start shortcutting learning curve, you are rendering learning curve useless. From that, there is no way back, because once you have enough people without having passed by the fire, you will never. exploring-the-character-bazaar-skill-tradin
|
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
53
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:53:54 -
[1988] - Quote
Things its supposed to help with:
"New players wanting to get a quick boost to catch up to older players"
-never going to happen. after about 6 months, these will never be seen on the market place. Like meta 16 stuff, buy orders for these will be placed with such high value, any that are made by farm alts, will never see the light of day on the actual face of the market. not for 1 plex, or 50 plex worth of isk.
"players wanting to shuffle around sp mistakes made back in the day."
Yes. This will help for that. And be awesome. I myself would like to suck out some stupid SP dumping decisions and make up for some of that lost potential.
"break down the SP cliff that new players perceive is a difficulty wall in eve"
No way. New players will look at these and say '**** it', and just give up. I can't compete with older players who have the sp, and i can't buy sp, because i can't afford it, because prices are set by end game players who have the sp to set the price. The golden ticket into the big boys club is years away, or literally thousands of dollars away.
Make these account bound. Only able to be moved through the redeem system. Restrict them out of all ships in eve. Restrict them out of cargo containers, trade windows.... etc.
Allow players to pay for 1x, 2x, or 3x training. (multichar training for slots 2 and 3) and allow players to purchase sp shuffling within their own account. This solves all your issues that need solving without breaking anything that isn't already broken.
CCP gets money, players get fidelity over their sp/month purchases. Everybody wins.
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12694
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:54:43 -
[1989] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Starbuck05 wrote:Players should not have the ability to instantly train certain skills at cost no matter how sweet the deal is but, there is a cost... the cost of training the sp, the cost of extracting the sp, the sp lost due to diminishing returns etc. there's a whole host of costs in lieu of "having a character name you hate and a potentially tainted history".
Those costs are meaningless. So what I lose 2-3-400k skills point in the exchange, I wasn't using the character it was extracted from in the 1st place.
With the Character bazaar , If i buy a character and want to use it along side an existing character, I have to have two accounts, ., This new system will not only let me use a character with a name I chose, but it will let me raid characters I don't use to buff that one character, at the 'cost' of some isk and skill points I was never ever going to use anyways...
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
66
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:56:13 -
[1990] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:It is not maintained. If you drop from #1 to #2, you lost everything you did for years. Even if only one person gets above you, you lose your #1 spot. There is still going to be prestige for top100 accounts but all those who lose their positions in top10 are going to be quite pissed off.
And if Dr Caymus quits because of this, I will be first to follow him to show my support. And I do hope other top players will join as well to send "thanks for screwing us" message to CCP. what you did for years? all you did for the last 12 or so years was have a positive bank balance when the direct debit went out of your account. being #1 just means you were the first person to make an account of the remaining subscribers. not being funny but that's not exactly something that really means anything. frankly, the first person to buy their way to every skill at rank V probably means more because it means they're good at making isk in game, or they're good at making dollars and cents in real life. either of those are worth more than "i made an account before you did, nar nar na nar nar". *shrug*
Not really. I do not think he is among 1k of characters that were made of start. Consider there were no skill queue back then, there was no evemon, there was no remap. So it took him years of careful planning of schedule, best attributes usage, changing them on time and in the end paying the subscription to be where he is. His dedication is the reason he is top 1. And if CCP sends message that dedication aint mean anything and you can be #1 in something if you pay up, I think its the wrong message.
Also again the story about consistency, how many top players would quit long time ago if they knew this is coming etc.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
|
Damjan Fox
Fox Industries and Exploration
170
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:56:30 -
[1991] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Looking forward to your feedback Rise, what did you expect other than this Threadnought? |
Dave Stark
7558
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:57:07 -
[1992] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
i'm going to stun you. i'm going to agree with you.
stay with me here; what happens when you melt down your alts in to plex packages and inject them all in to your main? oh right. you don't need those 30 accounts any more, better unsub them. that's 30 subscriptions they've just lost.
i don't need a carrier alt, a dread alt, etc - i can have it all on one character now. one account. one subscription.
then again, i'm sure some one at ccp has weighed up lost alts vs microtransaction revenue and gone "**** alts".
face it, the whole industry is shifting to micro transactions. there are a very small handful of games left operating the old "subscription model" style game - is it time we just moved on and accepted micro transactions are the way eve funds itself?
Stunned :D That is the part I am worried about and why I am speaking here. It seems to me that they have not run proper analytic approach nor that they have considered all side effects as this is very bad decision in the long run. I do not think EVE will not work well with so much focus in micro transaction. Either they should find some new unique (eve-like) way of those micro transactions or they should have find other ways to keep the player base and make the game "healthy" again. Since this as the first (newer) step toward that is not going to be successful while it will create tectonic changes to players mindsets.
i'd like to see the store come back. things like the rifter usb hub in the CE was the only reason i purchased the CE. if i could get cool things like that from CCP i'd gladly throw money their way on top of my monthly subs.
i'd rather that than micro transactions. the current micro transactions we have aren't terrible (just like i don't think this idea is terrible) i just think the price points are way off. especially skins, i think skins are hugely overpriced for what they are. i feel like some one massively ****** up the price elasticity of demand thing there - that or i'm just tight.
is that really the issue then? that this is a paid service rather than free or something? i can understand more if people say "this being a paid service is bullshit" than i can understand "this will break eve and eve will die".
after incarna we all know people are touchy about micro transactions and paid services so it's easy to understand the hate there, but pretending this is going to break the game is just comical. |
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
193
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:58:52 -
[1993] - Quote
Truckstop Hooker wrote:What's the big fear anyway? Some guy who has never played EVE before is going to spend $1000 to buy plexes No. The people against the idea, like everyone else reading the devblog, are planning on abusing this. That's the fear. |
Dave Stark
7558
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:00:10 -
[1994] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Starbuck05 wrote:Players should not have the ability to instantly train certain skills at cost no matter how sweet the deal is but, there is a cost... the cost of training the sp, the cost of extracting the sp, the sp lost due to diminishing returns etc. there's a whole host of costs in lieu of "having a character name you hate and a potentially tainted history". Those costs are meaningless. So what I lose 2-3-400k skills point in the exchange, I wasn't using the character it was extracted from in the 1st place. With the Character bazaar , If i buy a character and want to use it along side an existing character, I have to have two accounts, ., This new system will not only let me use a character with a name I chose, but it will let me raid characters I don't use to buff that one character, at the 'cost' of some isk and skill points I was never ever going to use anyways...
there isn't an infinite pool of SP for you to draw from, though.
this is the same argument as dual training. yes i can have it all on 1 character/account. however there's a definite value in being able to do it all ~at the same time~ by having a stable of alts. |
Dave Stark
7558
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:01:12 -
[1995] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Truckstop Hooker wrote:What's the big fear anyway? Some guy who has never played EVE before is going to spend $1000 to buy plexes No. The people against the idea, like everyone else reading the devblog, are planning on abusing this. That's the fear.
by giving their main a bunch of SP?
if that's the best abuse you can come up with, then the system seems solid to me. |
Kerrec Snowmane
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:01:34 -
[1996] - Quote
This is a reply to the OP, not to any of the 99 pages of responses.
I am kind of 50/50 on this proposition. Where I think this idea is going wrong is allowing any skill to be converted into raw SP, that can purchase any other skill. If the SP packets were tied to and could only purchase the skills (or a broader group of skills) that was cannibalized to create the packet, I think I could live with that kind of change.
However, I don't like the idea that these SP packets can allow people to flip to a new meta immediately. Say a new ship class and role is introduced, with new skills as requirements; the day that those ships are introduced via patch/expansion, some people, either ISK rich or RL rich, can have perfect skills within minutes. If skill packets were tied to skills, or a group of skills, then day one of a patch, there would be no SP for those new skills for sale. And that would be OK with me.
The other thing I predict, is character optimization is going to get pushed to new levels. Right now I have my one character, and one alt on another account. That leaves two characters on each account that I never bothered to create because I could only play one at a time, and since the removal of the possibility to lose SP when pods are destroyed, there is no reason whatsoever to not keep training skills to have one character that does it all. Now with SP packets and the diminishing returns, I'd probably rethink my main character and specialize him into a very specific role, or as many as I can fit within 50 million SP. And 50 million SP is the point where the diminishing returns would be too much for me. So instead of having one character with 150 million SP (eventually), I would prefer to have 3 characters with 50 million SP each, each one specialized into categories.
Once I accomplished this, then I would simply alter one or all 3 of my specialized characters to follow the meta, using any SP built up past my 50 million mark as an SP pool for future adjustments. For every alt account, this SP pool just gets bigger, assuming the alts are specialized and also done training for their specialization.
TL;DR: I don't like the idea of being able to instantly shift to new or newly popular skills/ships/whatever. Make the SP packets tied to the skills that were cannibalized, and that would be less of a problem and I wouldn't mind this kind of concept that much. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:03:04 -
[1997] - Quote
Laodell wrote:When I joined Eve everyone had the same start on life. We were all equal to build our empire. Trading SP destroys that
When I joined Eve(24 days ago) most of players has much more SP than me and I have no chance at all to catch them what ever I do. |
Astroyka
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
182
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:03:42 -
[1998] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
i'm going to stun you. i'm going to agree with you.
stay with me here; what happens when you melt down your alts in to plex packages and inject them all in to your main? oh right. you don't need those 30 accounts any more, better unsub them. that's 30 subscriptions they've just lost.
i don't need a carrier alt, a dread alt, etc - i can have it all on one character now. one account. one subscription.
then again, i'm sure some one at ccp has weighed up lost alts vs microtransaction revenue and gone "**** alts".
face it, the whole industry is shifting to micro transactions. there are a very small handful of games left operating the old "subscription model" style game - is it time we just moved on and accepted micro transactions are the way eve funds itself?
Stunned :D That is the part I am worried about and why I am speaking here. It seems to me that they have not run proper analytic approach nor that they have considered all side effects as this is very bad decision in the long run. I do not think EVE will not work well with so much focus in micro transaction. Either they should find some new unique (eve-like) way of those micro transactions or they should have find other ways to keep the player base and make the game "healthy" again. Since this as the first (newer) step toward that is not going to be successful while it will create tectonic changes to players mindsets.
Now buy each other a beer and shake hands!
Astroyka
A Mirkur Draug'Tyr pilot, fighting against slavery in New Eden
www.astroyka.net
@Astroyka
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
411
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:04:19 -
[1999] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: face it, the whole industry is shifting to micro transactions. there are a very small handful of games left operating the old "subscription model" style game - is it time we just moved on and accepted micro transactions are the way eve funds itself?
I prefer Netflix over Pay-per-view.
The problem in the gaming industry is that there is no Netflix. I can't pay one sub to access hundreds of AAA games.
The other problem is that gamers, especially young ones with no income of their own believe in the "free" part of F2P and don't see that F2P fall into two categories:
1) cheap to produce and maintain, therefore easy to finance with small micro-transactions 2) expensive to produce and maintain, therefore likely to become paywall or P2W type games.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12694
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:04:28 -
[2000] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Laodell wrote:When I joined Eve everyone had the same start on life. We were all equal to build our empire. Trading SP destroys that
When I joined Eve(about 25 days ago) most of players has much more SP than me and I have no chance at all to catch them what ever I do.
The great thing about EVE compared to other MMOs is that you don't need to 'catch up' to anyone. |
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12694
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:05:46 -
[2001] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Truckstop Hooker wrote:What's the big fear anyway? Some guy who has never played EVE before is going to spend $1000 to buy plexes No. The people against the idea, like everyone else reading the devblog, are planning on abusing this. That's the fear.
I sure as hell will.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
67
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:05:49 -
[2002] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
i'm going to stun you. i'm going to agree with you.
stay with me here; what happens when you melt down your alts in to plex packages and inject them all in to your main? oh right. you don't need those 30 accounts any more, better unsub them. that's 30 subscriptions they've just lost.
i don't need a carrier alt, a dread alt, etc - i can have it all on one character now. one account. one subscription.
then again, i'm sure some one at ccp has weighed up lost alts vs microtransaction revenue and gone "**** alts".
face it, the whole industry is shifting to micro transactions. there are a very small handful of games left operating the old "subscription model" style game - is it time we just moved on and accepted micro transactions are the way eve funds itself?
Stunned :D That is the part I am worried about and why I am speaking here. It seems to me that they have not run proper analytic approach nor that they have considered all side effects as this is very bad decision in the long run. I do not think EVE will not work well with so much focus in micro transaction. Either they should find some new unique (eve-like) way of those micro transactions or they should have find other ways to keep the player base and make the game "healthy" again. Since this as the first (newer) step toward that is not going to be successful while it will create tectonic changes to players mindsets. i'd like to see the store come back. things like the rifter usb hub in the CE was the only reason i purchased the CE. if i could get cool things like that from CCP i'd gladly throw money their way on top of my monthly subs. i'd rather that than micro transactions. the current micro transactions we have aren't terrible (just like i don't think this idea is terrible) i just think the price points are way off. especially skins, i think skins are hugely overpriced for what they are. i feel like some one massively ****** up the price elasticity of demand thing there - that or i'm just tight. is that really the issue then? that this is a paid service rather than free or something? i can understand more if people say "this being a paid service is bullshit" than i can understand "this will break eve and eve will die". after incarna we all know people are touchy about micro transactions and paid services so it's easy to understand the hate there, but pretending this is going to break the game is just comical.
I`d like eve pen again and some of the posters :)
I have no idea about the costs about the skins, i probably opened aur store when they started it, laughed on it and closed it. Make up does not add anything in game experience to me.
I do not have anything against anything what will really benefit the game. If CCP wants, give every new player 10-20-50 mil sp straight away. I do thing it is wrong approach but if that would be what is needed to keep the game healthy then be it.
I have the problem with introduction of this system which is determined to fail while changing game fundamentals which will cause a lot of unhappy customers, meaning even less players. And I do not think micro transactions are the model which can work properly in eve. It would change the game too much, in the wrong direction.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
193
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:06:44 -
[2003] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:by giving their main a bunch of SP? Why would a main need more sp? :) |
Josef Djugashvilis
3016
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:08:25 -
[2004] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Laodell wrote:When I joined Eve everyone had the same start on life. We were all equal to build our empire. Trading SP destroys that
When I joined Eve(about 25 days ago) most of players has much more SP than me and I have no chance at all to catch them what ever I do.
Your point being...?
A frigate for example, can only utilise a set number of skill points, once you have them you are on a par (skill wise) with someone who started on day one of Eve-Online.
This is not a signature.
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
412
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:09:07 -
[2005] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Laodell wrote:When I joined Eve everyone had the same start on life. We were all equal to build our empire. Trading SP destroys that
When I joined Eve(about 25 days ago) most of players has much more SP than me and I have no chance at all to catch them what ever I do.
But do you prefer that the players who started the same day as you have the same path as you
or
do you want a system where you can jump 20 paces ahead and still be overtaken by someone with deeper pockets.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Kayden Katelo
Mythic Heights
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:09:19 -
[2006] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Laodell wrote:When I joined Eve everyone had the same start on life. We were all equal to build our empire. Trading SP destroys that
When I joined Eve(about 25 days ago) most of players has much more SP than me and I have no chance at all to catch them what ever I do.
Oh but you do. You can spend real money on PLEX, cash that in for isk and buy a character from the Bazaar. You will now have a 100mil SP character in a matter of hours. Thus you have caught up. |
Dave Stark
7558
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:12:44 -
[2007] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Dave Stark wrote:by giving their main a bunch of SP? Why would a main need more sp? :)
well if you're not loading up your main on SP to achieve a level of SP currently unattainable (which does nothing abusive).
then you're going to be giving it to your alt - at which point you're doing nothing but "buying a new character" just in a different way. which again, isn't abusive.
using the new system to siphon SP in to isk as an income? no different than creating 2/3 PI alts on an account and maybe creating a character farm to sell on the bazzar. again, not abusive.
inb4 sarcastic comments - so i guess i'm missing something?
i can see SP "piracy" going horribly wrong. since it relies on you giving some one an SP extractor to extract their sp for you to "steal" it. i'd just take the item and self destruct. |
Dave Stark
7558
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:13:30 -
[2008] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:General Lootit wrote:Laodell wrote:When I joined Eve everyone had the same start on life. We were all equal to build our empire. Trading SP destroys that
When I joined Eve(about 25 days ago) most of players has much more SP than me and I have no chance at all to catch them what ever I do. Your point being...? A frigate for example, can only utilise a set number of skill points, once you have them you are on a par (skill wise) with someone who started on day one of Eve-Online.
which is pretty much why buying sp won't change anything. buying 50 billion SP won't make you better than the guy with like 30m who has all the frigate related skills trained to V. |
Dave Stark
7558
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:17:51 -
[2009] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: I`d like eve pen again and some of the posters :)
I have no idea about the costs about the skins, i probably opened aur store when they started it, laughed on it and closed it. Make up does not add anything in game experience to me.
I do not have anything against anything what will really benefit the game. If CCP wants, give every new player 10-20-50 mil sp straight away. I do thing it is wrong approach but if that would be what is needed to keep the game healthy then be it.
I have the problem with introduction of this system which is determined to fail while changing game fundamentals which will cause a lot of unhappy customers, meaning even less players. And I do not think micro transactions are the model which can work properly in eve. It would change the game too much, in the wrong direction.
i've seen the isk prices of some of the skins - assuming that's relative to the cost of aur/plex/whatever - they're hilariously expensive. like half a plex for a red caracal or something outrageous.
to be honest i do wonder who's actually going to find this the most useful other than new players with more irl currency than they know what to do with. the conversion rate for high sp players is terrible, and the price for non-credit card warrior new players will be too high to really benefit from when they're low sp.
to be honest eve-o is probably the most negative place about this change. reddit was pretty ok with it other than the odd few nay-sayers when the blog first appeared.
I like the subscription model too, to be honest. you know exactly where you stand with that. |
Altessa Post
Midnight special super sexy
157
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:19:09 -
[2010] - Quote
This games used to be complex. Long term planning paid off. There were projects who required a year or more of preparation. It was a game for schemers, for people with a plan or a vision. It was really cool.
I think we do not have to discuss whether the last two years have been a success for CCP. The numbers speak for themselves. For me, this also raises the question when you will act on this. Somehow 2012 was peak EVE: you just learned the monocle gate lesson. You felt more relaxed about game design. I shall never forget the developer at fanfest sitting on a sofa and explaining that there should be no jesus features anymore. And that there is no right way or wrong way to play EVE. Anything goes. CCP is supposed to enable players so that they can find their own niche in the sandbox.
And now, you seek again salvation in drastic new features instead of developing what you have? What happened? Why do we have to learn the same lessons again?
tl,dr> the idea is embarrassingly bad
On the internet, you can be whatever you want to be. It is amazing that so many people chose to be stupid.
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Damjan Fox
Fox Industries and Exploration
170
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:22:30 -
[2011] - Quote
Now, that i have calmed down from the initial shock, i thought about this whole concept and i wonder... Why is this any different from the current character bazaar? I mean:
Quote:You can spend real money on PLEX, cash that in for isk and buy a character from the Bazaar. You will now have a 100mil SP character in a matter of hours. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:23:53 -
[2012] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:General Lootit wrote:Laodell wrote:When I joined Eve everyone had the same start on life. We were all equal to build our empire. Trading SP destroys that
When I joined Eve(about 25 days ago) most of players has much more SP than me and I have no chance at all to catch them what ever I do. But do you prefer that the players who started the same day as you have the same path as you or do you want a system where you can jump 20 paces ahead and still be overtaken by someone with deeper pockets. I don't mind because his new shiny ship will annihilate-¦ by more skillfull player in true meaning of this word. |
Dark Rai
EVE Corporation 90876890-LOL
34
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:26:01 -
[2013] - Quote
Thanks.
Was a nice game.
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Zenax Cordeaux
Section 8. Gentlemen's.Club
1
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:26:03 -
[2014] - Quote
The only barrier for a new player to have a high spec character is money. so... Do away with SP all together. I would have 5 more accounts for an indy mining fleet if I didn't have to bother with training them. All of these arguments and the corruption implied goes away with removing SP completely.
multi chars over 8 years and over 100mil sp on them and I would give them up gladly for all lvl 5s for everyone. I'm bored with Eve partly because of how long it would take to really move into something different.
Blowing up some shield tanked Moros fit with auto cannons would be fun anyway.
CCP still makes extra $ and the learning curve doesn't go away thus time in game continues to be truly valuable.
Consider freedom / sandbox and I think You have a big win.
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Beta Maoye
81
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:29:22 -
[2015] - Quote
Bloody2k wrote:I fear that it was not the idea of CCP. Much more, I suspect that sponsors want to increase profits. What do you mean by sponsors? Is CCP negotiating for an IPO? |
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3127
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:29:44 -
[2016] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: to be honest eve-o is probably the most negative place about this change. reddit was pretty ok with it other than the odd few nay-sayers when the blog first appeared.
.
Funny, you don't have to be a paid subscriber to post in reddit. Here, you do.
Folks who have old accts that they no longer play with may see this as an easier method to 'cash out'
By Cash out, yes, I mean RMT. Of course they would be in favour of something that would allow them to get some of their money back out of the game. Strip an old character you no longer play with and see cold hard cash in return.
I am not saying that all of reddit thinks that way but that there are ways to explain the difference in opinion across various forums.
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
412
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:31:15 -
[2017] - Quote
Altessa Post wrote:This games used to be complex. Long term planning paid off. There were projects who required a year or more of preparation. It was a game for schemers, for people with a plan or a vision. It was really cool.
CCP Rise has a pvp player background. That made him an excellent choice for ship rebalancing. With old devs changing positions or leaving CCP and new ones being hired, EvE is bound to change. Sometimes for the better ,sometimes for the worse.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
MonkeyBusiness Thiesant
randomly named no tax corp v2
54
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:31:48 -
[2018] - Quote
Stalking Mantis wrote:You learned nothing from the reasons your servers that used to have 70 to 90 thousand people on them two years ago now have 15 to 20 thousand people on them.
Eve never once had 70k-90k on, the record was 65k. Two years ago the average was 35k, now it's 22k.
These figures are also not comparable because players are no longer forced to logon daily for skill queue changes. Similarly, the isboxxer change removed a lot of alts. |
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
696
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:35:21 -
[2019] - Quote
At first I couldn't understand why so many people were against this so vehemently.
Then I was reminded that EvE has a player base that consists of many people who are autistic.
Then I felt dumb for trying to reason with them, for they do not understand and process things like us "normies" do.
Poor guys, so wrong and no chance to ever really know or understand it. |
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers Goonswarm Federation
242
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:35:37 -
[2020] - Quote
xttz wrote:Point of note that some posting here seem to have missed: You're not buying skills for real money. Someone has to extract those skillpoints from another character first, then the fee allows the transfer. Kinda like we currently do to transfer whole characters already. Langbaobao wrote:This is a really bad idea. I can think of a couple ways to abuse this right off the top of my head. I urge you to reconsider, 'cause this will be a disaster if it hits the live game.
On a side note, is CCP really so strapped for cash that it needs a new cash cow? Absolutely yes
Point of Note. PLEX for ISK is a thing... buy Plex.. Get isk or aurum or whatever they will use.. and then get SP... equal Pay for SP 20$ to Aurum to SP... Pay for SP |
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Saidra Whitewolf
The Podmail Authority Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:38:09 -
[2021] - Quote
Okay, so I realize the game active subscriber count is dropping, yeah so CCP is making less money recently probably on their game... BUT, part of why this is happening is because HiSec is basically the most dangerous place in the game with all the griefing going on. So most people get tired of being fkng suicide ganked and wardecced in their first few weeks of playing and quit.
This new cash cow enterprise of selling SP will ultimately fail, because all of the bittervets will ragequit, most of the others will be turned off by the dev team, and some people will unsub. In the short term, yeah, tons of people will be buying SP. Hell, even the players whining about it will buy it, but it could mark the beginning of the end for this game in the long run.
In short, this is a money grab decision for CCP, likely because they see the game beginning to lose subscribers and it is part of their bail-out plan. I do NOT support it. |
Big Lynx
4032
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:38:13 -
[2022] - Quote
Basically that shows that CCP is in a conflict. They see the decrease of players and the diminishing interest of players who might start an EvE career. Any fool can see that in the recent past.
With this, CCP kills two birds with one stone. Makes the whining instant gratification player community happy and makes more money. However, it kills (again) more of the spirit and the uniqueness of EvE Online. Those are little steps into the position, when people will say in the future: "Ahh EvE, wasn't that an RPG in space?" Like nothing special anymore. Sad. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:39:13 -
[2023] - Quote
Fourteen Maken wrote:Pic'n dor wrote:The only point missing is the price of the SP extractor. On the other hand, let's try to put a market price on a SP Pack. My hypothesis : 500k SP in fully in full remap/implant setup is reach within a 7/8 days. We can speculate that skill trainign to extract them gonna be a carreer path. So a packet is 1/4 of a plex time. At current price : this would get into the 300M isk So from 350k SP to 5M, you need 9 packs >(or 9 weeks of training) which would be 2.7B isk That means a new player have to make 50M per week in the 4 or 5 first week of EVE ohhh but wait : Quote:Trial characters may not consume Skill Packets That means in the first 3 weeks of eve, you can't inject !! that means you are able to consume them for around 6 weeks only to get full 500k ! If you are able to get 300M per week (which is not possible for new players whatever game carreer you take), well, you will only take 3 packs : 3 weeks of trial, +1 pack per week + self training per week : at week 7 you reach 5M SP So now is my question : - How is this feature good for new players since market price hypothesis is not compatible with new players - Is it intended to allow wealthy average SP player to fine tune their skills to take over new players ? - How do you expect new players to get to know this feature when they already have 1 billion thing to get used to when you start this game ? (Some vets still don't understand dominion sov and far more are lost with fozziesov) ( i won't speak of rules of engagement in highsec) - Why would a 5M+ SP player would pay for 400k SP which would be 6 days of training when he can save the same amount of money to allow him to play for 7/8 days ? - Why would we give the SuperCaps pilote a career path to make money when the already have reach suffcient wealth to get into the finest ships of the game with the right amount of skills ? We should focus and get the NPE at top level and allow new comers to feel they are part of something bigger. 300mil is the TOP price based on plex values, it cannot go higher, but it can go much lower. The top price would be assuming all characters selling SP were doing nothing else of any value just farming SP... but in most cases this will be used to sell excess SP from indy toons, already maxed toons, station trading toons, PI toons etc and the acceptable price will be much much lower especially at the start when everyone starts liquidating their unwanted skills.
The initial glut of cheap liquidated SPs will get hoovered up by rich players/power blocks/speculators and perhaps a few lucky new guys. Once the gold rush is over and only a severely limited supply of SPs is left, new guys wanting to buy their way in to better game content will pay a very high price.
The NPE will not be helped by this at all, it will in fact make it worse since the vast majority of new guys will be looking enviously at not just the vets, but a few real life rich kids who can afford silly prices. If anything this will make new player retention worse, not better as the barrier of entry will seem even bigger and more unfair.
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
68
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:39:40 -
[2024] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: I`d like eve pen again and some of the posters :)
I have no idea about the costs about the skins, i probably opened aur store when they started it, laughed on it and closed it. Make up does not add anything in game experience to me.
I do not have anything against anything what will really benefit the game. If CCP wants, give every new player 10-20-50 mil sp straight away. I do thing it is wrong approach but if that would be what is needed to keep the game healthy then be it.
I have the problem with introduction of this system which is determined to fail while changing game fundamentals which will cause a lot of unhappy customers, meaning even less players. And I do not think micro transactions are the model which can work properly in eve. It would change the game too much, in the wrong direction.
i've seen the isk prices of some of the skins - assuming that's relative to the cost of aur/plex/whatever - they're hilariously expensive. like half a plex for a red caracal or something outrageous. to be honest i do wonder who's actually going to find this the most useful other than new players with more irl currency than they know what to do with. the conversion rate for high sp players is terrible, and the price for non-credit card warrior new players will be too high to really benefit from when they're low sp. to be honest eve-o is probably the most negative place about this change. reddit was pretty ok with it other than the odd few nay-sayers when the blog first appeared. I like the subscription model too, to be honest. you know exactly where you stand with that.
That means we are actually agreeing on more subjects. I do not like where this is heading to! :P
Though I would never buy them myself I am fine with isk sinks like skins etc, there is too much isk in the game and people who do not know what to do with it anymore.
As you stated very small amount of new players will actually utilize this. And I expect same amount of older players as well, just to fix some mistakes from the past. So CCP will not gain much, while they risk getting unhappy customers.
I have not read reddit as I am not active there, but i do think there were plenty of solid arguments for potential side effects which are great risk compared to so low gain they can expect.
And subscription model is about consistency, so you like that too! :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1605
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:39:51 -
[2025] - Quote
100 pages in one day.
I would hope that the devs in question now realise their mistake, although them not doing so before hand is already bad enough. |
Dave Stark
7558
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:41:13 -
[2026] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Dave Stark wrote: to be honest eve-o is probably the most negative place about this change. reddit was pretty ok with it other than the odd few nay-sayers when the blog first appeared.
.
Funny, you don't have to be a paid subscriber to post in reddit. Here, you do. Folks who have old accts that they no longer play with may see this as an easier method to 'cash out' By Cash out, yes, I mean RMT. Of course they would be in favour of something that would allow them to get some of their money back out of the game. Strip an old character you no longer play with and see cold hard cash in return. I am not saying that all of reddit thinks that way but that there are ways to explain the difference in opinion across various forums. m
to be honest - i'd be more worried about paid subscribers threatening to quit than people who are currently unsubbed hatching one off RMT plans.
they're already lost causes - they're not coming back anyway.
then again, pretty sure the most upvoted post on the thread is elise randolph. doubt he's planning to cash out. a few weeks ago on the meta show the mittani basically turned around and said this would be good anyway since we're already doing the same thing via character bazzar. (although one could argue he's been cashing out for a while). |
Dave Stark
7558
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:48:55 -
[2027] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: I`d like eve pen again and some of the posters :)
I have no idea about the costs about the skins, i probably opened aur store when they started it, laughed on it and closed it. Make up does not add anything in game experience to me.
I do not have anything against anything what will really benefit the game. If CCP wants, give every new player 10-20-50 mil sp straight away. I do thing it is wrong approach but if that would be what is needed to keep the game healthy then be it.
I have the problem with introduction of this system which is determined to fail while changing game fundamentals which will cause a lot of unhappy customers, meaning even less players. And I do not think micro transactions are the model which can work properly in eve. It would change the game too much, in the wrong direction.
i've seen the isk prices of some of the skins - assuming that's relative to the cost of aur/plex/whatever - they're hilariously expensive. like half a plex for a red caracal or something outrageous. to be honest i do wonder who's actually going to find this the most useful other than new players with more irl currency than they know what to do with. the conversion rate for high sp players is terrible, and the price for non-credit card warrior new players will be too high to really benefit from when they're low sp. to be honest eve-o is probably the most negative place about this change. reddit was pretty ok with it other than the odd few nay-sayers when the blog first appeared. I like the subscription model too, to be honest. you know exactly where you stand with that. That means we are actually agreeing on more subjects. I do not like where this is heading to! :P Though I would never buy them myself I am fine with isk sinks like skins etc, there is too much isk in the game and people who do not know what to do with it anymore. As you stated very small amount of new players will actually utilize this. And I expect same amount of older players as well, just to fix some mistakes from the past. So CCP will not gain much, while they risk getting unhappy customers. I have not read reddit as I am not active there, but i do think there were plenty of solid arguments for potential side effects which are great risk compared to so low gain they can expect. And subscription model is about consistency, so you like that too! :)
probably heading nowhere good.
thinking about it, maybe it's perfect. price new players out of the market so they can't "waste" isk buying unallocated SP and dumping it in to skills like mining V, and destroying the return for old players so it doesn't become a game of "who can throw more isk at packets". the people that are left are the 20-50m sp crowd who have decent isk making capabilities who know enough to get good return from the packages at a not to obscene price and who won't waste them on mining V? just get people through some of those grueling V skills. hac V, recon V, racial cruiser V, medium weapon V etc.
reddit's not so bad. i like the less restricted moderation there. and the layout (once you get used to it, at first i thought it was awful but it's far easier to find replies on reddit) |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:51:29 -
[2028] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:General Lootit wrote:Laodell wrote:When I joined Eve everyone had the same start on life. We were all equal to build our empire. Trading SP destroys that
When I joined Eve(about 25 days ago) most of players has much more SP than me and I have no chance at all to catch them what ever I do. Your point being...? A frigate for example, can only utilise a set number of skill points, once you have them you are on a par (skill wise) with someone who started on day one of Eve-Online. My point is that if new player defeat old one then "skillfull" capsuleer will reshipto t3d. |
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
194
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:51:39 -
[2029] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:some things I'll admit my use of the word "abuse" was overdramatic, because "abuse" to my mind would be "working as intended" to another.
The difference between this and the character bazaar is distributed production.
Mike Azariah wrote:I am not saying that all of reddit thinks that way but that there are ways to explain the difference in opinion across various forums. The r/eve mentality isn't quite the same as the eve-o mentality. We all love our pitchforks, but get them out on different occasions. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:53:30 -
[2030] - Quote
Laodell wrote:Not trying to belittle you in any way here, but here's a very relevant truth:
You haven't spent the time to grow a character for the years the older players have, to be able to appreciate the audacity of your statement. You cannot be asked to hold a valid opinion on a topic you have no frame of reference to understand.
Laodell wrote:Because you can't wish consequences away. Who you are, in game or out, is a reflection of the choices you or the previous owner made. That's part of the consequences, or balance if I may, of buying SP though the purchase of a new toon.
Moac Tor wrote:If you want a game with no consequences then why are you playing Eve?
This is exactly why the change is good. "Consequences" for skill choices is not interesting gameplay. In fact, training skills isn't gameplay at all.
I understand you have emotional and philosophical objections against the change but nowhere in your arguments do I see how this change will negative affect gameplay or subscriptions.
The fact that you think that Skill Points belonging specifically to a character is holy is not relevant. That's your opinion, and I respect it, but it is not an opinion CCP (obviously) shares.
Laodell wrote:Just being able to abstract the purchase of the SP through whatever euphemism is still paying to win. Again, we already have the Character Bazaar. That line has already been crossed.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
412
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:54:16 -
[2031] - Quote
Please add your pros and cons to the list below:
pros:
- pilots can get rid of unwanted skills (less important than it was when we had to pay for gradually more expensive medical clone updates)
- reduces boring waiting periods for long skill plans
- boost to new players ability to get into T2 ships as often required by PvP groups
- players having been unsubbed for a while can buy back training time (with the risk of unsubbing, because keeping up training is not a strict requirement anymore. Resubbing is less likely than getting back on an already subbed account) [post #1901 by RavenPaine]
cons:
- T3 pilots being able to immediately replace SP lost when their ship explodes changes the way T3 was designed to affect pilots.
- Newbs could skip entire parts of the game and learning experience to jump to a percieved end-game with possible disappointment. (losing the "looking foward to fly x" and replacing it by "... started playing last week, bought a Dread and it sucks, I quit")
- Rich alliances could bolster their ranks with higher SP pilots by simply buying them SP packs.
- Possible meta / exploits: farming SP with PLEXed alts to sell SP. (with likely PLEX price increase at a disadvantage to new players facing sub-subscription based game with P2W mechanics) [Ima Wreckyou] post #1952
- a part from PLEX and character Bazar allowing new players to circumvent character progression, new players would immediately face unequal starting conditions as opposed to the level playing field it is now [Laodell] post #1958
- Seasoned players would buy all available SP Booster Packs and leave newbros with none. Bad for NPE. [Portmanteau] post# 2021
- Immediate SP reallocation each time there's a new flavour of the month (again might push SP farming alts)
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
68
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:57:06 -
[2032] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: I`d like eve pen again and some of the posters :)
I have no idea about the costs about the skins, i probably opened aur store when they started it, laughed on it and closed it. Make up does not add anything in game experience to me.
I do not have anything against anything what will really benefit the game. If CCP wants, give every new player 10-20-50 mil sp straight away. I do thing it is wrong approach but if that would be what is needed to keep the game healthy then be it.
I have the problem with introduction of this system which is determined to fail while changing game fundamentals which will cause a lot of unhappy customers, meaning even less players. And I do not think micro transactions are the model which can work properly in eve. It would change the game too much, in the wrong direction.
i've seen the isk prices of some of the skins - assuming that's relative to the cost of aur/plex/whatever - they're hilariously expensive. like half a plex for a red caracal or something outrageous. to be honest i do wonder who's actually going to find this the most useful other than new players with more irl currency than they know what to do with. the conversion rate for high sp players is terrible, and the price for non-credit card warrior new players will be too high to really benefit from when they're low sp. to be honest eve-o is probably the most negative place about this change. reddit was pretty ok with it other than the odd few nay-sayers when the blog first appeared. I like the subscription model too, to be honest. you know exactly where you stand with that. That means we are actually agreeing on more subjects. I do not like where this is heading to! :P Though I would never buy them myself I am fine with isk sinks like skins etc, there is too much isk in the game and people who do not know what to do with it anymore. As you stated very small amount of new players will actually utilize this. And I expect same amount of older players as well, just to fix some mistakes from the past. So CCP will not gain much, while they risk getting unhappy customers. I have not read reddit as I am not active there, but i do think there were plenty of solid arguments for potential side effects which are great risk compared to so low gain they can expect. And subscription model is about consistency, so you like that too! :) probably heading nowhere good. thinking about it, maybe it's perfect. price new players out of the market so they can't "waste" isk buying unallocated SP and dumping it in to skills like mining V, and destroying the return for old players so it doesn't become a game of "who can throw more isk at packets". the people that are left are the 20-50m sp crowd who have decent isk making capabilities who know enough to get good return from the packages at a not to obscene price and who won't waste them on mining V? just get people through some of those grueling V skills. hac V, recon V, racial cruiser V, medium weapon V etc. reddit's not so bad. i like the less restricted moderation there. and the layout (once you get used to it, at first i thought it was awful but it's far easier to find replies on reddit)
I am afraid it will push players even more in isk farming, as I suspect it will make people to focus on "who can throw more isk at packets". Depending on prices, it is questionable how much it will be used even by 20-50mil sp ones, but they are probably the only one who can have some meaningful return of investment there.
I dislike reddit layout, really cba to even try to get used to it, ie i have opened it once and never gave it a chance :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25741
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:59:06 -
[2033] - Quote
Ima, I'll respond to the PLEX price portion of your argument in a different post.
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Since you can now create gank alts within 16min you can start the queue on the SP farm alt right away.
Your colleague has already explained how the 400k rookie pilot (today) can turn into an 82% max dps efficient gank alt in about 9 days and 350 dps pilot in 15 minutes.
Regardless of how little time it takes to train a gank munchkin, it is still against EULA to recycle alts for ganking purposes, so I'm not sure what the problem here is that you're highlighting.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9250
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:00:53 -
[2034] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:100 pages in one day.
I would hope that the devs in question now realise their mistake, although them not doing so before hand is already bad enough.
The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo.
It's not the size that matters, it's the content. And there's not a lot of content in this thread. Just froth and tears.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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BlackWilk
Black Hat Frigates Violent Declaration
0
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Posted - 2015.10.16 18:01:53 -
[2035] - Quote
I disagree completely on selling skill points. Here are my reasonings.
- I have always loved eve over other MMO's because of the lack of pay2win aspect
- I get you can buy toons and isk for ships but that doesnt feel game breaking because just because you have it doesnt mean you know how to use it. it also means you value your in game time more than your real life money is all.
- I play games so that the aspects of the game is what is involved with the game. Meaning I dont want a persons real life wallet or lack of personal accounting skills to be a factor in whether I have the skills to take on a pilot.
- It is game breaking in that we often as pilots check the age of a toon to estimate what they may or may not be capable of.
- If you argue that this isnt pay to win, consider someone who is responsible with their money and takes care of their family who has played for years going up against someone who has too much money and a toon a few months old who paid a fortune to have the skills of a 5 year old player.
- This will also create the ability for players who have multiple accounts or double training accounts who have a mining toon that doesnt need more skills to pay money for their main to receive extra training each month. They also wont even lose the isk since they will be selling the SP to themselves. Theoretically able to have a main who now receives double or triple the regular sp/month.
TL:DR - Creating the ability to sell skill points will be game breaking and create a pay2win game. because I dont like my wallet being a factor in my ability to play a game I would cease to play one of my favorite games. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25741
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:03:55 -
[2036] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:cons:
- T3 pilots being able to immediately replace SP lost when their ship explodes changes the way T3 was designed to affect pilots.
Already a slippery slope created when CCP dropped clone grades.
- Newbs could skip entire parts of the game and learning experience to jump to a percieved end-game with possible disappointment. (losing the "looking foward to fly x" and replacing it by "... started playing last week, bought a Dread and it sucks, I quit")
Character Bazaar
- Rich alliances could bolster their ranks with higher SP pilots by simply buying them SP packs.
Is this even an argument? Rich alliances can attack you with a blob.
- Possible meta / exploits: farming SP with PLEXed alts to sell SP. (with likely PLEX price increase at a disadvantage to new players facing sub-subscription based game with P2W mechanics) [Ima Wreckyou] post #1952
If you haven't checked, Character Bazaar has plenty of farmed characters for sale.
- a part from PLEX and character Bazar allowing new players to circumvent character progression, new players would immediately face unequal starting conditions as opposed to the level playing field it is now [Laodell] post #1958
I'll address the PLEX price argument in another post
- Seasoned players would buy all available SP Booster Packs and leave newbros with none. Bad for NPE. [Portmanteau] post# 2021
SP Booster Packs have diminishing returns for seasoned pilots. I'm not sure what hoarding SP accomplishes.
- Immediate SP reallocation each time there's a new flavour of the month (again might push SP farming alts)
SP allocation isn't free. A lot of the arguments in thread (like this one) seem to think there's no cost or penalty to it.
My responses in bold-italics.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Dave Stark
7559
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:04:44 -
[2037] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:100 pages in one day.
I would hope that the devs in question now realise their mistake, although them not doing so before hand is already bad enough. The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo. It's not the size that matters, it's the content. And there's not a lot of content in this thread. Just froth and tears. Mr Epeen
pretty sure reddit already has more posts than this place - reddit is the superior place for any discussion on eve anyway. more people, less stifling moderation, and a far easier way to keep track of the discussion.
edit: oh no, it has 1500 posts, 500 less than this. then again people on reddit aren't as dense and they don't have to be told something more than once to understand it. |
Norian Lonark
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
148
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Posted - 2015.10.16 18:07:53 -
[2038] - Quote
I really don't like the idea.
This is shifting towards P2W and skilling / training is one of the unique aspects of EVE. IMO we should never be able to buy SPs to customize our characters. Buying a character on the Bazaar is very different to be able to pick and choose the skills.
Progression is part of an RPG isn't it? Isn't this just giving everyone what they want when they want if they are willing to pay for it, which kind of goes against the game universe we are in.
Start wide, expand further, and never look back
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3526
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:08:39 -
[2039] - Quote
Okay, so after exchanging some e-mails with a few people whose views on the forums I respect one question was asked of me, since IGÇÖm not against this idea, GÇ£What does this fix?GÇ¥ I thought that was a good question, so I went back to the Dev Blog and read it again. The answer appears to be, wellGǪnothing. It is an outgrowth of making improvements to the character bazaar. ButGǪthe character bazaar is it broken? Based on the dev blog the worst thing about, and IGÇÖm not sure this is necessarily bad, is that not every player may be aware of it.
And I have admitted that this new proposal does have some risk, all changes to the game come with some risk of going off the rails. Depending on the pricing of these new items we could be flooded with SP on the marketGǪor there could be very little or even none. A flood of SP on the market could be bad, even if temporary.
So, seeing how this does not appear to really fix anything and that there is some degree of risk. Nope, probably not a good idea. Adding granularity to the character bazaarGÇöi.e. letting skill levels be extracted may be a good thingGÇöan improvement to the game vs. fixing something that is not working. But the current proposal is too open ended.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
143
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:10:17 -
[2040] - Quote
BlackWilk wrote: - I have always loved eve over other MMO's because of the lack of pay2win aspect
What?
PLEX is literally a P2W mechanic. It is just one of the more tolerable ones, like XP boosting, which the proposed mechanic would be.
EvE has always been P2W, when you can PLEX and legitimately buy characters. And honestly, it is really not that bad, when EvE has a mechanic that forces you to wait several months in order to get into something specific. I don't mind other people getting boosted, since it does not really affect my gameplay.
The P2W, that I hope CCP will never get into. Is selling OP modules and ships for real cash. That is true P2W and that is something that would break the game. |
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Hawk Aldaris
Money Crew
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:10:27 -
[2041] - Quote
I see the good intentions here but I also see the exploitation and Pay to Win model happening. For those of you that claim its not pay to win....explain to me pay to win then. If I can buy plex with money, then transfer plex to isk/AU, then buy skill packets with isk/AU that is pay to win......
I hope this is truly not going to happen. Ive been having fun with this game and progression since day one. I take my summer breaks and stay subbed, come back to EvE and have so much fun with my new toys. Develop my personal skills and continue to grind my points. There is nothing wrong with this games progression and it does not need to be destroyed by buying SP.
If we could do a yearly skill extraction or something with a very long timer, then avoid being able to put the packets on the market and restrict them to account only use that would be one thing. This would help characters get rid of those half trained skills they may never use and put their SP they already paid for to good use.
CCP please dont turn this game into a subscribe now and "Get your free lvl 90!" style game...... its heading that direction quick.
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1395
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:10:28 -
[2042] - Quote
The dev blog starts out talking about shortcomings of the character bazaar due to no name changes. Why don't you just fix that problem?
"As you can see, this design favors skill transfers for younger characters and makes them very inefficient for older characters. WeGÇÖve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character."
I am not sure of the logic here. It just seems like you are sticking it to loyal customers. (why do vets get bitter?) The prestige of an older player has little to do with how many skillpoints they have since you normally only train one character per account.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
183
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Posted - 2015.10.16 18:11:33 -
[2043] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Laodell wrote:Not trying to belittle you in any way here, but here's a very relevant truth:
You haven't spent the time to grow a character for the years the older players have, to be able to appreciate the audacity of your statement. You cannot be asked to hold a valid opinion on a topic you have no frame of reference to understand. Laodell wrote:Because you can't wish consequences away. Who you are, in game or out, is a reflection of the choices you or the previous owner made. That's part of the consequences, or balance if I may, of buying SP though the purchase of a new toon. Moac Tor wrote:If you want a game with no consequences then why are you playing Eve? This is exactly why the change is good. "Consequences" for skill choices is not interesting gameplay. In fact, training skills isn't gameplay at all. I understand you have emotional and philosophical objections against the change but nowhere in your arguments do I see how this change will negative affect gameplay or subscriptions. It is not just a philosophical objection that the players have, the whole concept of eve has always been based around actions having consequences. That is what makes the gameplay interesting and stand out from other more generic MMORPGs. That is why I was asking why are you playing Eve.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Dave Stark
7560
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:12:17 -
[2044] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:ButGǪthe character bazaar is it broken?
no.
however, would i use it? also no. would i use the new system? probably yes.
why? because the character bazzar seems awkward and clunky to me. in short. so, maybe it is broken if the way it operates is putting people off?
while the bazaar itself isn't broken - it's a long, long way from being user friendly. |
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
194
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:12:46 -
[2045] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo. Actually, of the ten most prolific posters in this thread, only two are clearly against the change. Six are clearly in favour. |
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers Goonswarm Federation
242
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:21:23 -
[2046] - Quote
Putting this plan into action will become more costly most likely then using a character Bazaar. I am sure whatever ISK/Plex/aurum players had to spend to get a 80-110mil SP Character will be vastly cheaper then attempting to create one out of this new method.
Second off, Why are you screwing your long term established players who have dumped tons of cash into your company since 2003 and later by punishing them with the new implementations that you put into the game. Your userbase prides itself on how long it has been in this game, the times it has weathered, taking that advice and teaching the newer players and knowing the long term investment is what they pay for. EVE was always the game that you put the time and work into and it paid off in the long run. It was always changing, always new things to learn and learning those things faster then the Veterans was OUR Competitive edge. While I might not have 100-200M SP I also never cried when I came up against a 2003 player. I either booked it depending on what we were both in or I used what I learned over the time i played, or the group I flew with to defeat the veteran. We either got stomped when we first started.. or coms erupted in cheers when we were able to take down that player after a long fight.
In this new setup you take being a Veteran away and tarnish it. It no longers if your a 2003 player, or a 2009 player. You can just Plex/Isk/Aurum your way to the level of characters YEARS ahead. Worse off, players who are already in this game now can do the same also. Now you suddenly have a 2016 player with 80m SP. Sure he could of purchased it off the Bazaar, but that Character has a history to it, that history of it mattered, the name of that pilot carried weight depending on who used to fly it for being the lucky one to own it. You could have a player in the bazaar one day who is into EVE at the start.. purchasing a character in the future could be mittens, or Grath or progod.. one of the known players with a vast history, someone in the corp going "Do you know who you just purchased" the new player going "no" suddenly looking it up and going "HOLY ****" this toon was in some epic **** in his past. With this new system, Veteran is dead. The Long game of eve.. Is Dead. Current or new players can just Buy SP and Buff the living hell out of characters. Making Wrong choices on your character won't matter anymore because you can just hit the market and buy more SP... Take what you didn't mean to train.. and sell it and recoup the loss. What Happened to the risk? Where did our Long term Reward go? This game has always touted a Risk Vs Reward system, it seems every year you remove more of it and the reason a lot of us got involved. No one joins EVE because its Easy, because its Space WOW. They joined it because of the challenge and camaraderie that YOU PROMOTED.
I understand improving the New Player Experience. Making it easier to LEARN the game. I understood the change to wanting smaller fleet battles for less stress on the server, I accepted this. I accepted suddenly having to take hours longer to move across a region on my alt in a rorqual. I tolerated the factor that over the years you made my damn rorqual I was excited to train into... Effing useless except as a high priced - fuel eating Boosting ship. Replaced by a little less Boosts from an orca and a POS that protects everyone and does the same thing the rorq does. But this just removes the Veterancy and the History this game builds every minute its online. You will have no reason to host a New Player Experience when they can just quickly Buff the character to the SP they need upon first entering the game. The day the character was made no longer matters. Why have implants? why bother planning out a Skill queue, I can get all the ships I want ... NOW. The NEW players that actually don't use the Character Bazaar and use EVE-MON, and the mobile apps, make a path of training for what they want to do and play for the long game.. you now effectively say.. Screw you to.
This is not Improving the new player Experience, this is removing the player experience. The players will not have to go thru skilling up and learning how to fly a frigate, finally getting into a destroyer.. then a cruiser.. finally into a battleship, finally getting t2 guns trained, they won't get excited about finishing Jump cal 5 and getting into that carrier.. because they skipped the entire player experience buying a few items off the market. I remember finally getting into a Dominix back in the day... then my CEO putting me into Structure in an Ishkur.. because I never trained armor fully. Now you can just buy an item and click it to V. That pain and groan of how long a skill is and that rush and joy of finally finishing it will be gone for a new player. At this point they will only have Long skills to train and might say screw the game it takes to long to get something trained. You still then lost that player because they got the Instant gratification of skills trained and suddenly hit the wall of a 45 day skill. Then having to train every 45 day sub skill under it for it to work right. Is that the way we want EVE to go?
Last year I had made a post to you guys, and CCP Falcon Responded to it. Explaining how EVE is and how it should be in his opinion.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4972983
But how much of what he said still exists? How much will exist with these changes? Where did that EVE Online go. Where did the EVE Online go that KEPT the player base logging in and subscribing. New player retention is important, I will not argue that, But so is the retention of your established and long term players.You forgot that the rest of your player base exists and just concentrate on changes for the new players. But if you can't keep new players, and you bleed away the old players with changes like these, Who will still log in?
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25741
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:22:51 -
[2047] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:It is not just a philosophical objection that the players have, the whole concept of eve has always been based around actions having consequences. That is what makes the gameplay interesting and stand out from other more generic MMORPGs. That is why I was asking why are you playing Eve. Please explain to me why you think consequences for skill choices makes for interesting gameplay. What makes interesting gameplay are the choices players make in space and in the meta. Skill training is not gameplay. The consequences of skill training are simply an excuse to deny gameplay.
With SP flexibility, people have the option, albeit at prohibitive prices, to fly a ship they normally can't, immediately. The SP doesn't make them a better pilot, or guarantee in any way that they won't lose the ship.
"We've always done it like this" is a terrible reason, especially in EVE, for keeping a mechanic. It didn't work for clone grades. It won't work here.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25741
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:25:33 -
[2048] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Folks who have old accts that they no longer play with may see this as an easier method to 'cash out'
By Cash out, yes, I mean RMT. Of course they would be in favour of something that would allow them to get some of their money back out of the game. Strip an old character you no longer play with and see cold hard cash in return.
I brought this up in Slack yesterday, and the answer does not seem obvious to me.
How is CCP going to prevent RMT for Skill Points?
And I wish I could shout you out
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12698
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:26:44 -
[2049] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:100 pages in one day.
I would hope that the devs in question now realise their mistake, although them not doing so before hand is already bad enough. The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo.It's not the size that matters, it's the content. And there's not a lot of content in this thread. Just froth and tears. Mr Epeen
Half of the top ten are in favor of the change, including the guy who by far has the most posts, so it's people against the status quo posting over and over against and people for it posting much less often.
Thanks for the typical uninformed mr. epeen post, it's all this thread was lacking.
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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
412
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:26:57 -
[2050] - Quote
An additional consideration maybe.
The skill system as we have it now is artificially convoluted and long ... but for a reason.
In theory it would suffice to let players chose a class they want to play as. Want to be a miner ? Here's your mining barge / dwarf in fantasy MMOs. Want to be a healer ? Here's you logistic ship / wizard in fantasy MMOs.
Instead in EVE, we not only get a mining skill, but it also comes in 5 levels of which level 2-4 are useless to the player. On top of that you have dozens of skills related to mining. People who played EvE for a long time will remember when various advanced skills where added to artificially extend the time it would take to get maxed out in a skillbranch. CCP has also lowered some skill requirements to make some ships easier attainable by new players.
What I'm getting at, is that the skill system has the purpose of allowing the players to select the classes as they gain experience with playing the game and also increasing the number of classes availabale over time. The time it took me to specialize in logistic cruisers is the time that I could not spend in training for a heavy interdictor for example. It's also the time that some other player who invested in skills other than logistics related ones, could not use to compete with me on logistics. I can join in incursions as a logistic pilot because logistic pilots are relatively rare ... if every Jim and Jack could replace me within minutes, I wouldn't be as valuable anymore.
The questions we hve to ask are, what problem are we actually trying to solve and what are the mechanics that we want to maintain ?
I think helping the NPE is important. Allowing players to make good on training mistakes or even respecs are nice goals, but we should not fall into the trap of thinking that the monthly sub equates to x amount of SP that must be given to players. I don't pay for SP, I pay for the server being run and maintained + support if needed. Changing the core game is risky business.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
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beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
195
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:28:00 -
[2051] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:So Gregor is now twice wrong in that tiny little post. ow, whiplash |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12701
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:29:35 -
[2052] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo. Actually, of the ten most prolific posters in this thread, only two are clearly against the change. Six are clearly in favour. e: make that five now, I guess
Damn, beat me to it.
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Dave Stark
7560
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:30:34 -
[2053] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:100 pages in one day.
I would hope that the devs in question now realise their mistake, although them not doing so before hand is already bad enough. The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo.It's not the size that matters, it's the content. And there's not a lot of content in this thread. Just froth and tears. Mr Epeen Half of the top ten are in favor of the change, including the guy who by far has the most posts, so it's people against the status quo (ie for the change) posting over and over and over again and people against the change posting much less often (but there are more actual individuals in this group). Thanks for the typical uninformed mr. epeen post, it's all this thread was lacking.
to be honest, stats like that mean very little.
again, reddits superiority shines here. on here when more than 3-4 people are having a discussion in a thread it becomes difficult if not impossible to follow it. reddit's initially awkward formatting gets around this nicely and you can have lots of discussions in the same thread at once without it becoming impossible to follow/participate.
it's basically inevitable most of the posts in here will be made by a small group of people because the format sucks for allowing a large group of people to have any meaningful input. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25741
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:31:08 -
[2054] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:Instead in EVE, we not only get a mining skill, but it also comes in 5 levels of which level 2-4 are useless to the player. On top of that you have dozens of skills related to mining. This change, as you know, doesn't let you back out prerequisites. I'm just pointing out that throwing this in is unnecessary, and doesn't add anything to the argument against this change.
Quote:What I'm getting at, is that the skill system has the purpose of allowing the players to select the classes as they gain experience with playing the game and also increasing the number of classes availabale over time. The time it took me to specialize in logistic cruisers is the time that I could not spend in training for a heavy interdictor for example. It's also the time that some other player who invested in skills other than logistics related ones, could not use to compete with me on logistics. I can join in incursions as a logistic pilot because logistic pilots are relatively rare ... if every Jim and Jack could replace me within minutes, I wouldn't be as valuable anymore. How do the consequences of skill training choices translate into creating interesting gameplay? Why is gameplay better because I picked a bunch of mining skills and instead would like to fly some PVP ships?
And I wish I could shout you out
|
Mr Mac
Dark Goliath
103
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:31:22 -
[2055] - Quote
Two words: Not support |
Borg Stoneson
SWARTA SWARTA.
48
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:31:24 -
[2056] - Quote
I actualy have no problem with the idea of SP being sold on the market. What I don't like is the link to PLEX/AUR and the diminishing returns.
Everything that costs AUR is overpriced and just goes to pushing up the price of ingame PLEX even more.
Reducing the effectiveness for older toons is ridiculous as well, when you're having problems growing and retaining the playerbase adding penalties to the people that are actually sticking around is generaly a bad idea. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1609
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:35:07 -
[2057] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:beakerax wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo. Actually, of the ten most prolific posters in this thread, only two are clearly against the change. Six are clearly in favour. e: make that five now, I guess So Gregor is now twice wrong in that tiny little post. Anyone want to find strike three so we can petition to get him out of the game? Mr Epeen
I thought you stated that said prolific posters don't count. Also, those being in favour or not does not in any way account for the aye/nay of all the posters. Nice try at trying so hard, though. You should probably post some more about it. |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
412
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:38:05 -
[2058] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:It's not the size that matters, it's the content. And there's not a lot of content in this thread. Just froth and tears. Mr Epeen
Size matters ! Team size matters ... it says so in the dev-blog.
How does your post add to the content ? My post above did ...
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25741
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:38:31 -
[2059] - Quote
Don't mistake my posts as 'for' or 'against'.
In my gut I want to be against the change, but I can't seem to find a rationale to justify it to somebody else.
And I wish I could shout you out
|
Agata Matahari
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
165
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:38:37 -
[2060] - Quote
The hell, don't you ever touch the skillpoints!!! |
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12703
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:38:51 -
[2061] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
How do the consequences of skill training choices translate into creating interesting gameplay? Why is gameplay better because I picked a bunch of mining skills and instead would like to fly some PVP ships?
For the same reason you lose your ship in EVE and don't have it magically respawn. Because EVE is a game of consequences, you chose to skill mining, that means you wait to pvp unless you spend 2 plex + the character cost in the Bazaar (an exception CCP has made because of the reality that some people will sell characters no matter what).
EVE is a certain kind of game. It should stay that way and turning a necessary evil (character trading) into a full blown unbalanced micro transaction is going the wrong way.
CCP could do lots of things to strengthen the Character Bazaar that doesn't go so overboard.
|
Jared Khanar
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:39:05 -
[2062] - Quote
Reposting because orig thread got locked and this is the official thread the isd pointed to (there is a little hope left devs are reading this, although I know ccp is going to ignore all of this - as they always do
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=451034&p=2
NOOOOOOOOO!
Quote: Because this is "even more" pay to win in a subscription game. I know one could discuss about this all day long but: with plex and eve-¦s gameplay featuring bigger ships, bigger blobs - even now the rl wallet may decide who-¦s winning if opponents are equally skilled.
- if you only pay your monthly subscription you need to farm / earn all the isk you need to play eve - if you additionally throw money at ccp you can get rid of that part completely - you can pay for simultanious training of another char on your account, a.s.o. - your ability to spend additional money shapes and formes your gaming experience in a major way, many of this features reminds me of things like additional inventar slots in pay to win games - is eve providing equal possibilities and fair chances for everyone like it should be (in a subscription game) - does this even sound like a monthly subscription game any more?
Also you can-¦t compare this SP selling and buying with the existing character bazaar, because this allows you to carefully craft a character the way you choose if you throw enough money at it.
The planned future of eve is getting more and more obvious. But please: This is not a stealth microtransaction game for rich ******
This is a covered skills for rl money exchange - in it-¦s last consequence we could also delete the existing skillsystem now and buy skills directly from ccp instead of other players.
"We promise to never ever do this" - CCP But then they thought greed is good - and they tried ... and tried again... and tried again... It-¦s like the frog in boiling water.
Quote: RL money / or Plex => Aurum => SP Package Transaction
If I understood this right this could only lead to rising plex prices - someone who gets aurum with RL cash doesn-¦t need to buy plex for the market - someone who uses plex to get aurum buys them off the market - please correct me if i-¦m wrong - but if not - expect plexes to skyrocket like never before...
|
Amateratsu
The Pegasus Project
82
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:39:49 -
[2063] - Quote
This is utterly the worst thing you could possibly do to the game.
This change will completely obsolete the skill training system. This change will completely obsolete the attribute system This change will completely obsolete the remap system
There is enough isk in game to max out 10's of thousands of characters with every single skill at level 5 (450 million+ sp)
It's taken me over 10 years to get my main character to 207 million sp, now comes along joe blogs who creates a brand new character and then buys enough sp to max out that brand new character with 450 million sp in a day. completely invalidating the years we've spent training our characters in real time.
This change will completely obsolete the character bazarr. Why? buy a new character, when you can simply create a new character to your exact liking and then spec him out with all the skills he'll ever need. No Training Required!!!
Why spend years training skills when you can now buy whatever skills you require for real or in game money.
A 90% loss of sp gained for older characters is irrelevant, they will just buy as many sp packets as they need to get the instant sp they want.
There will be nothing left to strife for in game, as you can buy everything you want, which means the game will quickly get boring.
This change will be the death of Eve GAME OVER!!!.
Well it was fun while it lasted, if this change go's through, I'm outta here. |
Big Lynx
4033
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:40:16 -
[2064] - Quote
Well, one step forward to " Eve is dying.." |
Dave Stark
7560
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:43:13 -
[2065] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
How do the consequences of skill training choices translate into creating interesting gameplay? Why is gameplay better because I picked a bunch of mining skills and instead would like to fly some PVP ships?
For the same reason you lose your ship in EVE and don't have it magically respawn. Because EVE is a game of consequences, you chose to skill mining, that means you wait to pvp unless you spend 2 plex + the character cost in the Bazaar (an exception CCP has made because of the reality that some people will sell characters no matter what). EVE is a certain kind of game. It should stay that way and turning a necessary evil (character trading) into a full blown unbalanced micro transaction is going the wrong way. CCP could do lots of things to strengthen the Character Bazaar that doesn't go so overboard.
yeah but you can choose to also sell that character, and buy one without mining skills.... which is basically the same as just selling your mining skills in the proposed idea.
there's really this new system does that the old system doesn't... except the new system cuts out a bunch of unnecessary steps. |
Dave Stark
7560
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:44:52 -
[2066] - Quote
Amateratsu wrote:This is utterly the worst thing you could possibly do to the game.
This change will completely obsolete the skill training system. This change will completely obsolete the attribute system This change will completely obsolete the remap system
There is enough isk in game to max out 10's of thousands of characters with every single skill at level 5 (450 million+ sp)
It's taken me over 10 years to get my main character to 207 million sp, now comes along joe blogs who creates a brand new character and then buys enough sp to max out that brand new character with 450 million sp in a day. completely invalidating the years we've spent training our characters in real time.
This change will completely obsolete the character bazarr. Why? buy a new character, when you can simply create a new character to your exact liking and then spec him out with all the skills he'll ever need. No Training Required!!!
Why spend years training skills when you can now buy whatever skills you require for real or in game money.
A 90% loss of sp gained for older characters is irrelevant, they will just buy as many sp packets as they need to get the instant sp they want.
There will be nothing left to strife for in game, as you can buy everything you want, which means the game will quickly get boring.
This change will be the death of Eve GAME OVER!!!.
Well it was fun while it lasted, if this change go's through, I'm outta here.
how will it obsolete the training system? without the training system where are you going to get the SP to buy/sell? especially when this new system deletes up to 90% of the SP extracted and sold. |
BlackWilk
Black Hat Frigates Violent Declaration
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:45:03 -
[2067] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:BlackWilk wrote: - I have always loved eve over other MMO's because of the lack of pay2win aspect
What? PLEX is literally a P2W mechanic. It is just one of the more tolerable ones, like XP boosting, which the proposed mechanic would be. EvE has always been P2W, when you can PLEX and legitimately buy characters. And honestly, it is really not that bad, when EvE has a mechanic that forces you to wait several months in order to get into something specific. I don't mind other people getting boosted, since it does not really affect my gameplay. The P2W, that I hope CCP will never get into. Is selling OP modules and ships for real cash. That is true P2W and that is something that would break the game.
Paying real cash for OP ships and modules is already what exists. Pay real cash for plex. Sell plex for isk. Use isk to pay for what you want.
The reason I feel this is tolerable is just because you have the money to buy a Barghest doesnt mean you have the skills to effectively fly it.
Also paying for SP is not the same as paying for an xp boost. In those games you have to grind for xp. So you pay for an xp boost to get a little extra and take less time. Paying for SP would be the equivalent of paying to instantly be a certain level. (yes i know blizzard does this with WoW. there are many reasons i dont play wow and that is one of them.) |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25742
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:46:14 -
[2068] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
How do the consequences of skill training choices translate into creating interesting gameplay? Why is gameplay better because I picked a bunch of mining skills and instead would like to fly some PVP ships?
For the same reason you lose your ship in EVE and don't have it magically respawn. Because EVE is a game of consequences, you chose to skill mining, that means you wait to pvp unless you spend 2 plex + the character cost in the Bazaar (an exception CCP has made because of the reality that some people will sell characters no matter what). EVE is a certain kind of game. It should stay that way and turning a necessary evil (character trading) into a full blown unbalanced micro transaction is going the wrong way. CCP could do lots of things to strengthen the Character Bazaar that doesn't go so overboard.
Yes "wait to pvp" is how things have always been. But you didn't answer the question. Why do you think waiting is interesting gameplay? I think all of the waiting mechanisms in the game.. GCC.. Jump Fatigue.. are the opposite of interesting gameplay. In fact, these are reasons why people choose to log off (for the duration of the wait) and go do other things.
Having to wait to PVP in a ship is not equivalent to getting free ships after you get destroyed. Skill allocation choices are not the same as choices you make in space. This is a game about choices in space. Why do you think skill allocation choices are a meaningful part of the game, apart from 'this is how it's always been'.
And I wish I could shout you out
|
Clancy Davis
Stepping Stone Industries Gentlemen's.Parlor
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:48:29 -
[2069] - Quote
Why all the confusing mechanics? Why not just make it so you can have multiple PLEXed training queue on an a character? Or annual "skill remaps"? "[B]e creative. Instead of making sandwiches with bread, use Pop Tarts. Instead of chewing gum, chew bacon."
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25742
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:49:16 -
[2070] - Quote
And let's be honest. Nobody (except for me) actually chose to have mining skills. The tutorial made them think it's a good idea and 3 months later they want to try the 'real game'. How does holding those people to these choices make for interesting gameplay?
And I wish I could shout you out
|
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Sacred Klepton
Chaos Army
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:49:53 -
[2071] - Quote
What an absolutely horrible idea. Cant believe you're even thinking of doing it. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12706
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:50:43 -
[2072] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
How do the consequences of skill training choices translate into creating interesting gameplay? Why is gameplay better because I picked a bunch of mining skills and instead would like to fly some PVP ships?
For the same reason you lose your ship in EVE and don't have it magically respawn. Because EVE is a game of consequences, you chose to skill mining, that means you wait to pvp unless you spend 2 plex + the character cost in the Bazaar (an exception CCP has made because of the reality that some people will sell characters no matter what). EVE is a certain kind of game. It should stay that way and turning a necessary evil (character trading) into a full blown unbalanced micro transaction is going the wrong way. CCP could do lots of things to strengthen the Character Bazaar that doesn't go so overboard. yeah but you can choose to also sell that character, and buy one without mining skills.... which is basically the same as just selling your mining skills in the proposed idea. there's really this new system does that the old system doesn't... except the new system cuts out a bunch of unnecessary steps. You mean the steps that make the thing ok? Yea, that's exactly what it cuts out, which is what makes it a bad idea. The CB is balanced by it's deficits (ie needing a free character slot and the rest).
I'll say it again, when you have something that is a necessary evil (such as the CB, which only exists because some people will sell characters anyway, same as the relationship between RMT and plex), you live with it, maybe try to streamline it a little.
What you don't do is make it into a REAL evil , especially for the sake of revenue generation. And especially when CCP promised to not do things like this after monoclegate. CCP can fix the character bazaar without resorting to un-EVE like SP microtransactions (likewise CCP can fix EVE without resorting to gold ammo). |
Josef Djugashvilis
3017
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:50:48 -
[2073] - Quote
This whole 'having to wait to do stuff' seems to be the core of the rationale for buying and selling skill points.
Logically, therefore, the answer is to do away with skill points and let everyone have the ability to do everything from day one.
PS, I never liked the Character Bazaar or PLEX. They have always seemed to me to circumvent the ethos of the game.
This is not a signature.
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
185
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:53:20 -
[2074] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Moac Tor wrote:It is not just a philosophical objection that the players have, the whole concept of eve has always been based around actions having consequences. That is what makes the gameplay interesting and stand out from other more generic MMORPGs. That is why I was asking why are you playing Eve. Please explain to me why you think consequences for skill choices makes for interesting gameplay. To someone who doesn't understand the concept it would take a long time to explain and you probably would still fail to understand and so it would be a waste of my time. If you really want to know though then have a look at a game like Dark Souls and see why that has been so successful and gathered a huge following.
Sure I would completely accept that a lot of people don't like this type of game though, but then what you need to keep in mind is that eve was always meant to have harsh consequences, and those who started playing 12 years ago and have kept the game running with their subs through all these years had signed up to a game in which every choice has a consequence.
There are plenty more games which will cater for the more casual so I don't understand why people would cling to a game which is clearly not suited for themselves and try and change it instead of finding one of the many games that would fit them perfectly.
Keep in mind though that this idea doesn't just fail due to the fact that it removes consequences though, there are many more reasons which have been detailed already in the thread.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:53:44 -
[2075] - Quote
BlackWilk wrote:Maekchu wrote:BlackWilk wrote: - I have always loved eve over other MMO's because of the lack of pay2win aspect
What? PLEX is literally a P2W mechanic. It is just one of the more tolerable ones, like XP boosting, which the proposed mechanic would be. EvE has always been P2W, when you can PLEX and legitimately buy characters. And honestly, it is really not that bad, when EvE has a mechanic that forces you to wait several months in order to get into something specific. I don't mind other people getting boosted, since it does not really affect my gameplay. The P2W, that I hope CCP will never get into. Is selling OP modules and ships for real cash. That is true P2W and that is something that would break the game. Paying real cash for OP ships and modules is already what exists. Pay real cash for plex. Sell plex for isk. Use isk to pay for what you want. The reason I feel this is tolerable is just because you have the money to buy a Barghest doesnt mean you have the skills to effectively fly it. Also paying for SP is not the same as paying for an xp boost. In those games you have to grind for xp. So you pay for an xp boost to get a little extra and take less time. Paying for SP would be the equivalent of paying to instantly be a certain level. (yes i know blizzard does this with WoW. there are many reasons i dont play wow and that is one of them.) Yyyyy... you are only agreeing with my post.
I only wrote the reply, since you stated that you have always loved EvE cause of its lack of P2W elements. I respond with arguing that PLEX is a P2W element. You agree with my statement...
So what is it then? Do you love EvE cause of its lack of P2W elements, that somehow are there anyway? So do you in reality, not really love EvE?
|
Dave Stark
7560
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:53:47 -
[2076] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:You mean the steps that make the thing ok? Yea, that's exactly what it cuts out, which is what makes it a bad idea. The CB is balanced by it's deficits (ie needing a free character slot and the rest).
I'll say it again, when you have something that is a necessary evil (such as the CB, which only exists because some people will sell characters anyway, same as the relationship between RMT and plex), you live with it, maybe try to streamline it a little.
What you don't do is make it into a REAL evil , especially for the sake of revenue generation. And especially when CCP promised to not do things like this after monoclegate. CCP can fix the character bazaar without resorting to un-EVE like SP microtransactions (likewise CCP can fix EVE without resorting to gold ammo).
so because it's a convoluted and awkward mechanic that's fine?
quick, fire karkur and punkturis then since they're actively removing convoluted and awkward mechanics which are clearly what makes eve great.
in both situations you end up with a character that has lost its mining skills. the result is the same. are you really telling me that's only ok because you went through a process that nearly made you want to tear your hair out because it's terrible?
if your only negative about this system is "it makes things easier" then clearly it's not that bad. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12712
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:56:56 -
[2077] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
Yes "wait to pvp" is how things have always been. But you didn't answer the question. Why do you think waiting is interesting gameplay?
Because it gives value to the gameplay when the wait is over. It makes the game play MEAN something.
Quote: I think all of the waiting mechanisms in the game.. GCC.. Jump Fatigue.. are the opposite of interesting gameplay. In fact, these are reasons why people choose to log off (for the duration of the wait) and go do other things.
And that's fine, EVE isn't for everyone. If one is too un-creative to figure out what to do in game while they wait for something, that means they should learn patience, it doesn't mean "CCP, change the game now".
Quote: Having to wait to PVP in a ship is not equivalent to getting free ships after you get destroyed. Skill allocation choices are not the same as choices you make in space. This is a game about choices in space. Why do you think skill allocation choices are a meaningful part of the game, apart from 'this is how it's always been'.
This is incorrect. It's not just about choices made in space. In the same way EVERY fight in EVE is decided while a player is docked, career progression ( a core part of the game) is decided at the skill que (again, with the one exception CCP has made, the Character Bazaar, which is in and of itself a kind of game.
I don't think you appreciate what this idea represents, or why many of us are against it. Do you think all of us are stupid? Do you think we don't want this game to be fun, or succeed? |
Josef Djugashvilis
3019
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:58:34 -
[2078] - Quote
Lordy, I have 'liked' a Jenn aSide post - 2067.
Either Eve is dying, or I am ;)
This is not a signature.
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
196
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 18:58:51 -
[2079] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Don't mistake my posts as 'for' or 'against'. When you decide to rp the other side of the debate I'll mark you off as 'neutral'.
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Logically, therefore, the answer is to do away with skill points and let everyone have the ability to do everything from day one.
I can only view this devblog as an exercise in shifting the Overton window. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12712
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:00:01 -
[2080] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: if your only negative about this system is "it makes things easier" then clearly it's not that bad.
Get it right. It makes "something that under ideal conditions would not exist in the 1st place even easier". That is the point, it's stupid to expand something that should not exist in the 1st place. Even CCP has said that the Character Bazaar exists to prevent a bad activity. |
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25743
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:01:19 -
[2081] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:To someone who doesn't understand the concept it would take a long time to explain and you probably would still fail to understand and so it would be a waste of my time. If you really want to know though then have a look at a game like Dark Souls and see why that has been so successful and gathered a huge following. So instead of posting an argument, you're flashing your EVE subscription credentials?
That's a wonderful response.
And I wish I could shout you out
|
Dave Stark
7560
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:02:12 -
[2082] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Dave Stark wrote: if your only negative about this system is "it makes things easier" then clearly it's not that bad.
Get it right. It makes "something that under ideal conditions would not exist in the 1st place even easier". That is the point, it's stupid to expand something that should exist in the 1st place. Even CCP has said that the Character Bazaar exists to prevent a bad activity.
so because it shouldn't exist it has to be as ****** as possible? ... which just encourages that it exists to prevent.
really? |
BlackWilk
Black Hat Frigates Violent Declaration
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:02:30 -
[2083] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: And let's be honest. Nobody (except for me) actually chose to have mining skills. The tutorial made them think it's a good idea and 3 months later they want to try the 'real game'. How does holding those people to these choices make for interesting gameplay?
some people make the choice :P. ive done pvp for years and never done much grinding thanks to a friend who loved to buy plex and share the goodness with me. now that thats over ive been looking into actually making isk. i chose my mining skills. i didnt even train the ones the tutorial asked for initially :P. |
BlackWilk
Black Hat Frigates Violent Declaration
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:04:37 -
[2084] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:This whole 'having to wait to do stuff' seems to be the core of the rationale for buying and selling skill points.
Logically, therefore, the answer is to do away with skill points and let everyone have the ability to do everything from day one.
PS, I never liked the Character Bazaar or PLEX. They have always seemed to me to circumvent the ethos of the game.
honestly, im not against this idea :P. it would make for a very interesting game if everyone could fly everything. though i feel that to make a game like that more fair we would need to remove the ability to buy plex with cash and get isk for it. all isk should therefore come from grinding :P. |
Shuckstar
Taking Inc
338
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:04:40 -
[2085] - Quote
-1 do not implement this **** please.
CCP Greyscale wrote:"OK, I've read every post up to page 200, and we're getting to a point in this thread where there's not a lot of new concerns or suggestions being brought up. There will be future threads (and future blogs) as we tune details, but for now I want to thank you for all of your constructive input, and wish you a good weekend :)"
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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
414
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:05:01 -
[2086] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Jill Xelitras wrote: SP Booster Packs have diminishing returns for seasoned pilots. I'm not sure what hoarding SP accomplishes.
Immediate SP reallocation each time there's a new flavour of the month (again might push SP farming alts) SP allocation isn't free. A lot of the arguments in thread (like this one) seem to think there's no cost or penalty to it.
[/list] My responses in bold-italics.
I'm trying to get the arguments to be easier to read then having to deal with individual people replying to each other with posts inbetween that argue something which has been discarded earlier on.
As to, why you would want to hoard unallocated SP: imagine a new set of skills coming with an expansion. If you have or can buy unallocated SP, you can start right away doing something which others can't. That's usually profitable when I look at past expansions.
I know that SP allocation as proposed isn't free and I see the advantage of diminishing returns. Personally I tend to like the idea proposed by some players to llimit reallocation of SP to the same character while maintaining the character bazaar. At the same time I think that you should not be able to respec completely within minutes -> see my specialisation argument I made a few posts above. The one where I talk about me being valuable as a logistic pilot because not everyone can just jump into logistic cruiser just like that.
The question is what is the cost of SP reallocation going to be ? - if it's going to be a pure financial cost aka my wallet, EvE's going to become P2W - if it's going to have a time component aswell (as the current skill system does), that could be a balancing factor.
Currently there are few balancing factors specified in the original blog. One of them is that you have to take the SP from an existing trained character, keeping in check overabundance (but also possibly leading to scarcity and exploding costs).
Another balancing factor is deminishing returns for higher SP characters. That's good, but the cited danger of the rich sucking up SP and leaving newbros with an even steeper cliff to compete with their peers seems real enough to me.
What I'm saying is: Let's keep discussing this and finding a viable solution. I'm not dismissing the proposal outright as some do. But a system implemented 1:1 as proposed by Team Size Matters ... nah.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12718
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:06:24 -
[2087] - Quote
beakerax wrote: I can only view this devblog as an exercise in shifting the Overton window.
Dude, I said earlier that I'm not one of those suspicious types. I don't consciously think that someone at CCP would lead with an outrageous idea to get people riled up so then when they propose the much less radical changes to the Character Bazaar it will be much more palatable.
Oh wait, I do kind of think that. Damn. Someone go find Dinsdale Piranha's hanger and see if any tinfoil hats are left, i think I need one now......
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
412
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:06:56 -
[2088] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: Yes "wait to pvp" is how things have always been.
What "wait to pvp"? It's pilot skills, remember?
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12718
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:07:46 -
[2089] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Dave Stark wrote: if your only negative about this system is "it makes things easier" then clearly it's not that bad.
Get it right. It makes "something that under ideal conditions would not exist in the 1st place even easier". That is the point, it's stupid to expand something that should exist in the 1st place. Even CCP has said that the Character Bazaar exists to prevent a bad activity. so because it shouldn't exist it has to be as ****** as possible? ... which just encourages that it exists to prevent. really?
Nope, they can reform the Character bazaar. The thing you are supporting is not reform of the character bazaar.
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Nafensoriel
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
136
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:08:10 -
[2090] - Quote
Just needed to point out a small correction to the discussion here.
SP sales and Character trading are not identical. When you sell a character you are buying time. This time might be fully utilized the way you want it to be or it might not.. The fact remains that to get a 200m SP char from the bazzar you have to have a char which was painstakingly trained to 200m.
With SP sales you have direct injection of something now rather than later.. In essence a removal of time.
TLDR: Bazzar = Buying someone elses time. SP Trading = Autisticly removing the need for time.
Regardless of your position on this subject the above is immutable. Removing training time will have a profound effect on eve online as it has never been done before. History will tell if its the right one. I personally only dislike the system because it will be abused for RMT but beyond that I see Rises point and I can see the clear desire for CCP to moniterize the game more.
|
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BlackWilk
Black Hat Frigates Violent Declaration
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:09:19 -
[2091] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:BlackWilk wrote:Maekchu wrote:BlackWilk wrote: - I have always loved eve over other MMO's because of the lack of pay2win aspect
What? PLEX is literally a P2W mechanic. It is just one of the more tolerable ones, like XP boosting, which the proposed mechanic would be. EvE has always been P2W, when you can PLEX and legitimately buy characters. And honestly, it is really not that bad, when EvE has a mechanic that forces you to wait several months in order to get into something specific. I don't mind other people getting boosted, since it does not really affect my gameplay. The P2W, that I hope CCP will never get into. Is selling OP modules and ships for real cash. That is true P2W and that is something that would break the game. Paying real cash for OP ships and modules is already what exists. Pay real cash for plex. Sell plex for isk. Use isk to pay for what you want. The reason I feel this is tolerable is just because you have the money to buy a Barghest doesnt mean you have the skills to effectively fly it. Also paying for SP is not the same as paying for an xp boost. In those games you have to grind for xp. So you pay for an xp boost to get a little extra and take less time. Paying for SP would be the equivalent of paying to instantly be a certain level. (yes i know blizzard does this with WoW. there are many reasons i dont play wow and that is one of them.) Yyyyy... you are only agreeing with my post. I only wrote the reply, since you stated that you have always loved EvE cause of its lack of P2W elements. I respond with arguing that PLEX is a P2W element. You agree with my statement... So what is it then? Do you love EvE cause of its lack of P2W elements, that somehow are there anyway? So do you in reality, not really love EvE?
I apologize if you are misunderstanding me. I will try to be more clear.
Paying for a ship does not guarantee you a win. Ill try the Barghest again. If you buy the ship but your missile skills only allow you a range of 30km, youre gonna lose. Paying for a ship and paying for the skills to fly that ship at maximum efficiency is greatly increasing the chance of success making it pay2win. Buy all the ships you want with your dollars. If you dont have the skills to fly them correctly ill destroy them all.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4155
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:09:55 -
[2092] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Yes "wait to pvp" is how things have always been. But you didn't answer the question. Why do you think waiting is interesting gameplay? I think all of the waiting mechanisms in the game.. GCC.. Jump Fatigue.. are the opposite of interesting gameplay. In fact, these are reasons why people choose to log off (for the duration of the wait) and go do other things.
Having to wait to PVP in a ship is not equivalent to getting free ships after you get destroyed. Skill allocation choices are not the same as choices you make in space. This is a game about choices in space. Why do you think skill allocation choices are a meaningful part of the game, apart from 'this is how it's always been'. Hey Sibs!
In a nutshell, I'd say the skill system is about releasing content to the individual player over time, giving a reason to remain subscribed, including a sense of progression and character development.
The usual stuff.
I'm not against changes in the skill system, but I'm strongly against this change because it involves Aurum. It's not a new feature available to all (already paying) players, it's exclusive to those who dish out the cash to CCP. Don't like that at all.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
414
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:10:27 -
[2093] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:then again people on reddit aren't as dense and they don't have to be told something more than once to understand it.
I'm on reddit too ... am I "less dense" when I post on reddit ? I think you're biased ...
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:12:04 -
[2094] - Quote
Nafensoriel wrote:Just needed to point out a small correction to the discussion here.
SP sales and Character trading are not identical. When you sell a character you are buying time. This time might be fully utilized the way you want it to be or it might not.. The fact remains that to get a 200m SP char from the bazzar you have to have a char which was painstakingly trained to 200m.
With SP sales you have direct injection of something now rather than later.. In essence a removal of time.
TLDR: Bazzar = Buying someone elses time. SP Trading = Autisticly removing the need for time.
Regardless of your position on this subject the above is immutable. Removing training time will have a profound effect on eve online as it has never been done before. History will tell if its the right one. I personally only dislike the system because it will be abused for RMT but beyond that I see Rises point and I can see the clear desire for CCP to moniterize the game more.
But the 500k SP points are still trained normally on the character that wants to sell them. The SP does not magically appear out of nowhere. They have already been trained, just like on the characters sold on the bazzar.
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Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1318
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:13:47 -
[2095] - Quote
Borg Stoneson wrote:I actualy have no problem with the idea of SP being sold on the market. What I don't like is the link to PLEX/AUR and the diminishing returns.
Everything that costs AUR is overpriced and just goes to pushing up the price of ingame PLEX even more.
Reducing the effectiveness for older toons is ridiculous as well, when you're having problems growing and retaining the playerbase adding penalties to the people that are actually sticking around is generaly a bad idea.
This guy gets where I was coming from on Page 39 I think it was.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9251
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:14:05 -
[2096] - Quote
Some stray observations.
CCP said: We're going to add a skill queue The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit!
The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit.
CCP said: We are going to add multiple character training. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit!
The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit.
CCP said: We're going to make it a little easier on newbs by giving them a few SP to play with at start-up. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit!
EVE is still here and so is the rabble.
CCP said: Were going to make SP trading a little less convoluted. The rabble are saying: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit!
I predict that the game won't die and the rabble is going nowhere. And thank God for that. I do so look forward to threads like this.
Carry on, rabble. Carry on.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Dave Stark
7560
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:15:46 -
[2097] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Dave Stark wrote: if your only negative about this system is "it makes things easier" then clearly it's not that bad.
Get it right. It makes "something that under ideal conditions would not exist in the 1st place even easier". That is the point, it's stupid to expand something that should exist in the 1st place. Even CCP has said that the Character Bazaar exists to prevent a bad activity. so because it shouldn't exist it has to be as ****** as possible? ... which just encourages that it exists to prevent. really? Nope, they can reform the Character bazaar. The thing you are supporting is not reform of the character bazaar.
i start with a character with one set of skills. i finish with a character with a different set of skills.
it does exactly what the character bazzar does. |
Big Lynx
4035
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:15:59 -
[2098] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Some stray observations. CCP said: We're going to add a skill queue The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit. CCP said: We are going to add multiple character training. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit. CCP said: We're going to make it a little easier on newbs by giving them a few SP to play with at start-up. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! EVE is still here and so is the rabble. CCP said: Were going to make SP trading a little less convoluted. The rabble are saying: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! I predict that the game won't die and the rabble is going nowhere. And thank God for that. I do so look forward to threads like this. Carry on, rabble. Carry on. Mr Epeen
The first time in my entire eve career I feel "eve is dying" is not a joke anymore. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25743
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:16:11 -
[2099] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Because it gives value to the gameplay when the wait is over. It makes the game play MEAN something. Having to wait to do stuff is not under attack by this change. That wait was already circumvented by Character Bazaar (the baggage of character name and reputation is minor to the issue). What I don't think adds any value is having to wait because you made a sub-optimal choice in skill selection earlier in your career. It doesn't mean anything at all that you get punished for a choice like that.
Maybe we can agree to disagree on that.
Quote:And that's fine, EVE isn't for everyone. If one is too un-creative to figure out what to do in game while they wait for something, that means they should learn patience, it doesn't mean "CCP, change the game now". Here we go. What is your 'creative' way of working around GCC, now that Hyperdunking is gone? Browsing the internet while you wait? Jumping on an alt? I'm confused why you're even arguing for GCC as a waiting concept anyway.
Quote:This is incorrect. It's not just about choices made in space. In the same way EVERY fight in EVE is decided while a player is docked, career progression ( a core part of the game) is decided at the skill que (again, with the one exception CCP has made, the Character Bazaar, which is in and of itself a kind of game. I don't think Skill Queue is a game at all. At least, there's about as much of a mystery to it as any mission in EVE. The ways to maximize a queue are documented everywhere. There is really nothing left to discover about it, and all it confers on EVE is a heavy penalty for past choices through an insufferable waiting period that the simple ability to respec would circumvent.
Would you be against respeccing without SP transfer?
Quote:I don't think you appreciate what this idea represents, or why many of us are against it. Do you think all of us are stupid? Do you think we don't want this game to be fun, or succeed? 'Represents'.. please elaborate without degenerating into buzzwords without explanations. No, I don't think you're stupid. You really should know that by now and I'm a bit miffed that you would think that.
And I wish I could shout you out
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3529
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:16:42 -
[2100] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:100 pages in one day.
I would hope that the devs in question now realise their mistake, although them not doing so before hand is already bad enough. The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo.It's not the size that matters, it's the content. And there's not a lot of content in this thread. Just froth and tears. Mr Epeen
Yes, the knee-jerk reactions are rendering the signal-to-noise ratio to almost zero.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
|
Dave Stark
7560
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:16:53 -
[2101] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:Dave Stark wrote:then again people on reddit aren't as dense and they don't have to be told something more than once to understand it. I'm on reddit too ... am I "less dense" when I post on reddit ? I think you're biased ...
maybe i am, but that's because reddit's just a better place to discuss eve. which is quite sad in it's own right. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
189
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:17:10 -
[2102] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Moac Tor wrote:To someone who doesn't understand the concept it would take a long time to explain and you probably would still fail to understand and so it would be a waste of my time. If you really want to know though then have a look at a game like Dark Souls and see why that has been so successful and gathered a huge following. So instead of posting an argument, you're flashing your EVE subscription credentials? That's a wonderful response. You prove my point; this is exactly why I didn't bother to waste my time writing out a comprehensive reply to you. If you read the entire reply then perhaps you would have a chance at seeing what people are trying to tell you, but it seems as though you are unable or don't want to hear it.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
BlackWilk
Black Hat Frigates Violent Declaration
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:20:17 -
[2103] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Some stray observations. CCP said: We're going to add a skill queue The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit. CCP said: We are going to add multiple character training. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit. CCP said: We're going to make it a little easier on newbs by giving them a few SP to play with at start-up. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! EVE is still here and so is the rabble. CCP said: Were going to make SP trading a little less convoluted. The rabble are saying: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! I predict that the game won't die and the rabble is going nowhere. And thank God for that. I do so look forward to threads like this. Carry on, rabble. Carry on. Mr Epeen
reading your list, all of those i think are improvements to the game. and no i dont think the game will die. but yes i will quit. |
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1318
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:21:24 -
[2104] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Moac Tor wrote:It is not just a philosophical objection that the players have, the whole concept of eve has always been based around actions having consequences. That is what makes the gameplay interesting and stand out from other more generic MMORPGs. That is why I was asking why are you playing Eve. Please explain to me why you think consequences for skill choices makes for interesting gameplay. To someone who doesn't understand the concept it would take a long time to explain and you probably would still fail to understand and so it would be a waste of my time. If you really want to know though then have a look at a game like Dark Souls and see why that has been so successful and gathered a huge following. Sure I would completely accept that a lot of people don't like this type of game though, but then what you need to keep in mind is that eve was always meant to have harsh consequences, and those who started playing 12 years ago and have kept the game running with their subs through all these years had signed up to a game in which every choice has a consequence. There are plenty more games which will cater for the more casual so I don't understand why people would cling to a game which is clearly not suited for themselves and try and change it instead of finding one of the many games that would fit them perfectly. Keep in mind though that this idea doesn't just fail due to the fact that it removes consequences though, there are many more reasons which have been detailed already in the thread.
This right here is the exact thing I'm thinking: choices have consequences. It's been in the game from Day 1 (I think, I'm not that old) and it wasn't limited to "in space decisions". If you want to get to the nitty gritty of that phrase Sibyyleverything in EVE Online is in space.
Are you going to tell me that the guy that trades in station\is docked doesn't make choices which have consequences because he's "not in space"? No, so there you go. That's that covered.
Dammit, I chose to amend again and now can't post for 27 seconds. Give me immediate posting ability for cash
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
|
Korvin
Shadow Kingdom Best Alliance
594
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:21:34 -
[2105] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Some stray observations. CCP said: We're going to add a skill queue The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit. CCP said: We are going to add multiple character training. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit. CCP said: We're going to make it a little easier on newbs by giving them a few SP to play with at start-up. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! EVE is still here and so is the rabble. CCP said: Were going to make SP trading a little less convoluted. The rabble are saying: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! I predict that the game won't die and the rabble is going nowhere. And thank God for that. I do so look forward to threads like this. Carry on, rabble. Carry on. Mr Epeen http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility
Looks like some did quit after all.
Member of CSM 4&5 ... &8
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Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
358
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:22:32 -
[2106] - Quote
Why can't we reprocess corpses into very small amounts of un-allocated skill points, since we are talking about brain tissue grafts. source: http://crossingzebras.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Brain.jpg
To the victor the spoils right, and there is no clearer victory then Death
Regards, a Freelancer
The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
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BlackWilk
Black Hat Frigates Violent Declaration
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:23:27 -
[2107] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
Would you be against respeccing without SP transfer?
i know the question wasnt at me but it was something i discussed with a corp mate. if it came at a fair cost, say once per year like respecing the attributes or a higher dollar value. i would not be against this. but it would also have the restrictions of it can only stay on a character. so moving sp from character A to character A. it would also make an interesting mechanic if you could only respec a certain amount at a time but i wouldnt consider it a requirement for me to agree. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8782
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:25:13 -
[2108] - Quote
'CCP Logibro'?
Moar like 'CCP Logi-'no'!
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:27:05 -
[2109] - Quote
So why Pay2Win mechanic like PLEX is no concern to Play2Winers? Maybe because exchange happens in which all sides in winning position. Payers gets isks and not worried about earning PLEX , tryharders gets free sub, CCP gets money. In skill transfering case something goes wrong and some side does gaining nothing or even loosing. There is no secret that veterans loosing their prestige so we need to reward them more than cost exchange of unwanted skills. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4160
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:27:16 -
[2110] - Quote
BlackWilk wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
Would you be against respeccing without SP transfer?
i know the question wasnt at me but it was something i discussed with a corp mate. if it came at a fair cost, say once per year like respecing the attributes or a higher dollar value. i would not be against this. but it would also have the restrictions of it can only stay on a character. so moving sp from character A to character A. it would also make an interesting mechanic if you could only respec a certain amount at a time but i wouldnt consider it a requirement for me to agree. Why is everyone fine with paying additional money to a subscription game?
F2P mobile games are brainwashing the masses.
The battle is lost.
At least we're also getting new frigate toys to play with until the servers go dark.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
|
BlackWilk
Black Hat Frigates Violent Declaration
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:27:37 -
[2111] - Quote
I LOVE THIS IDEA. i already have a creepy habit of collecting all the corpses i can :P. this would be a bit unfair on the miners. i would say if skill points are allowed to be bought on the market, this is a good way to do it. reprocess the corpse and either use the sp or sell them on the market. and they wouldnt be sold as packets but as actually individual sp units allowing for decent market fluctuation (meaning we are probably just looking at inflation like plex :P ) |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
417
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:27:53 -
[2112] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Moac Tor wrote:It is not just a philosophical objection that the players have, the whole concept of eve has always been based around actions having consequences. That is what makes the gameplay interesting and stand out from other more generic MMORPGs. That is why I was asking why are you playing Eve. Please explain to me why you think consequences for skill choices makes for interesting gameplay. What makes interesting gameplay are the choices players make in space and in the meta. Skill training is not gameplay. The consequences of skill training are simply an excuse to deny gameplay. With SP flexibility, people have the option, albeit at prohibitive prices, to fly a ship they normally can't, immediately. The SP doesn't make them a better pilot, or guarantee in any way that they won't lose the ship. "We've always done it like this" is a terrible reason, especially in EVE, for keeping a mechanic. It didn't work for clone grades. It won't work here.
See, that's an argument I agree with ... but not if the system would be implemented as proposed. If the balancing factor is just a prohibitive price, we're in pay2win territory.
Skill training is not game-play ! I absolutely agree. But the skill system is not just about becoming more proficient (dealing more damage, scanning faster ...) it's also about limiting players artificially to both encourage specialization in a field and also in staggering out content to which you get access to over time. There are plenty of multiplayer games where all of the content is available right away. In a military FPS you take the chopper, fly to a hill from where you snipe a couple targets before you sneak into the enemy base to steal a tank ... that's nice, but also limiting in its own way.
What eve is trying to achieve is that the helicopter pilot and tank driver are not also a sniper and detonation expert. This is limiting, but it also makes eve less generic.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12722
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:28:00 -
[2113] - Quote
Bad thing is, I could live with this lol.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4160
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:29:23 -
[2114] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:So why Pay2Win mechanic like PLEX is no concern to Play2Winers? Maybe because exchange hapens in which all sides in winning position. Payers gets isks and not worried about earning PLEX , tryharders gets free sub, CCP gets money. In skill transfering case something goes wrong and some side does gaining nothing or even loosing. There no secret that veterans loosing their prestige so we need to reward them more than cost exchange of unwanted skills. PLEX isn't pay2win. It's paying for someone else's subscription in exchange for ingame assets, freely agreed to by both parties.
It's a genius system, unlike this proposed mess.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3530
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:29:32 -
[2115] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:So why Pay2Win mechanic like PLEX is no concern to Play2Winers? Maybe because exchange hapens in which all sides in winning position. Payers gets isks and not worried about earning PLEX , tryharders gets free sub, CCP gets money. In skill transfering case something goes wrong and some side does gaining nothing or even loosing. There no secret that veterans loosing their prestige so we need to reward them more than cost exchange of unwanted skills.
Sorry, no. Market transactions take place when all parties feel they are coming out ahead, it is a positive sum game.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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BlackWilk
Black Hat Frigates Violent Declaration
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:30:45 -
[2116] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:BlackWilk wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
Would you be against respeccing without SP transfer?
i know the question wasnt at me but it was something i discussed with a corp mate. if it came at a fair cost, say once per year like respecing the attributes or a higher dollar value. i would not be against this. but it would also have the restrictions of it can only stay on a character. so moving sp from character A to character A. it would also make an interesting mechanic if you could only respec a certain amount at a time but i wouldnt consider it a requirement for me to agree. Why is everyone fine with paying additional money to a subscription game? F2P mobile games are brainwashing the masses. The battle is lost. At least we're also getting new frigate toys to play with until the servers go dark.
I've bought plex once in my life and probably never will again. The debate wasnt whether the option of paying extra money to a sub gain was up for debate. if it was id get rid of the plex and aur system immediately. but if it must exist, i want it to be in a way that adds entertainment and value to people (skins and eye monocles) but wont break the game for those who either have lower paying jobs or put their money towards taking care of their family (i in no way intend for this to insinuate that others are irresponsible). |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25744
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:32:38 -
[2117] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Sibyyl wrote: Yes "wait to pvp" is how things have always been.
What "wait to pvp"? It's pilot skills, remember?
I put it in quotes. This means I didn't say it myself.
But you make a fair point.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:33:12 -
[2118] - Quote
BlackWilk wrote: I apologize if you are misunderstanding me. I will try to be more clear.
Paying for a ship does not guarantee you a win. Ill try the Barghest again. If you buy the ship but your missile skills only allow you a range of 30km, youre gonna lose. Paying for a ship and paying for the skills to fly that ship at maximum efficiency is greatly increasing the chance of success making it pay2win. Buy all the ships you want with your dollars. If you dont have the skills to fly them correctly ill destroy them all.
I was just pointing out a weird argument in your initial post. When you then agree with my counter-argument, I suppose it is fairly understandable, that I might have been confused by your statement.
As to the P2W element. The way EvE works, SP is not an important metric for deciding the strength of a character. This whole proposition, and many responses in this thread. Proves to me, that even after a decade of EvE, a vast majority are still overvaluing SP and perceive that more SP means a more "powerful" character. The character is not more powerful, it is only more versatile.
Combat in EvE resembles more a match of rock-paper-scissors, compared to a raw stat comparison. A character with less SP can still win over that 100M SP character, if they have the proper ship and knowledge. Combined with the fact, that getting skills to level 4 is not that long of a train and basically is 80% of the skill. Makes me take the stance, that this proposition is really not that bad as some might make it seem.
But something drastic needs to be done in order to attract new players. And this drastic something, will be hated by the general population of the game, since people will not always react rational, given the amount of time investment poured into their characters. But CCP is still a company, and needs revenue in order to keep EvE "Online" (see what I did there :D God, where did that bad pun come from?). Whether this is the solution, or something else is still up for debate. Personally, I think they are on the right track, that something needs to be done to the SP system.
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BlackWilk
Black Hat Frigates Violent Declaration
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:33:18 -
[2119] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:General Lootit wrote:So why Pay2Win mechanic like PLEX is no concern to Play2Winers? Maybe because exchange hapens in which all sides in winning position. Payers gets isks and not worried about earning PLEX , tryharders gets free sub, CCP gets money. In skill transfering case something goes wrong and some side does gaining nothing or even loosing. There no secret that veterans loosing their prestige so we need to reward them more than cost exchange of unwanted skills. PLEX isn't pay2win. It's paying for someone else's subscription in exchange for ingame assets, freely agreed to by both parties. It's a genius system, unlike this proposed mess.
can i quote this the next time someone posts against me saying that im agree with pay2win even though im trying to be clear about the difference in my mind? :P |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12722
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:34:15 -
[2120] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: 'Represents'.. please elaborate without degenerating into buzzwords without explanations. No, I don't think you're stupid. You really should know that by now and I'm a bit miffed that you would think that.
Think that because that's what you are showing me right now.
Everything about this idea strikes me as wrong, I've explained as best I can why that is. Sorry if that isn't enough.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3530
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:34:24 -
[2121] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:General Lootit wrote:So why Pay2Win mechanic like PLEX is no concern to Play2Winers? Maybe because exchange hapens in which all sides in winning position. Payers gets isks and not worried about earning PLEX , tryharders gets free sub, CCP gets money. In skill transfering case something goes wrong and some side does gaining nothing or even loosing. There no secret that veterans loosing their prestige so we need to reward them more than cost exchange of unwanted skills. PLEX isn't pay2win. It's paying for someone else's subscription in exchange for ingame assets, freely agreed to by both parties. It's a genius system, unlike this proposed mess.
Buying PLEX and selling it in game is a round-about method of buying ISK. Many consider buying in-game currencies in video games a type of "pay to win".
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Mag's
the united
20503
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:36:29 -
[2122] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Some stray observations. CCP said: We're getting rid of learning skills. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit. CCP said: We're going to add a skill queue The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit. CCP said: We're going to add a stat respec once a year. The rabble said: You just killed the game. We're all quitting. The game didn't die. The rabble are still here. CCP said: We are going to add multiple character training. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit. CCP said: We're going to make it a little easier on newbs by giving them a few SP to play with at start-up. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! EVE is still here and so is the rabble. CCP said: Were going to make SP trading a little less convoluted. The rabble are saying: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! I predict that the game won't die and the rabble is going nowhere. And thank God for that. I do so look forward to threads like this. Carry on, rabble. Carry on. ~ed~ Adding more as I think of them. Mr Epeen Mr Epeen, reinventing history, one post at a time.
Please, do carry on.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12726
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:38:33 -
[2123] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Dave Stark wrote: if your only negative about this system is "it makes things easier" then clearly it's not that bad.
Get it right. It makes "something that under ideal conditions would not exist in the 1st place even easier". That is the point, it's stupid to expand something that should exist in the 1st place. Even CCP has said that the Character Bazaar exists to prevent a bad activity. so because it shouldn't exist it has to be as ****** as possible? ... which just encourages that it exists to prevent. really? Nope, they can reform the Character bazaar. The thing you are supporting is not reform of the character bazaar. i start with a character with one set of skills. i finish with a character with a different set of skills. it does exactly what the character bazzar does.
No it does not. The character bazaar doesn't like you do that with one character. It lets you buy another one.
I'm telling you, if this happens, it will be bad for the game, people will abuse it (I intend to, if for no other reason that to demonstrate to the DEVs why their idea was bad) and it will end up with CCP spending time and money to go back on it. It's better if this idea is still born now.
If I'm wrong, great, no harm done. But tell me, if what I predict is right and it ends up being bad, will you come back to this thread and say so? I'm willing to.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3530
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:39:53 -
[2124] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Some stray observations. CCP said: We're getting rid of learning skills. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit. CCP said: We're going to add a skill queue The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit. CCP said: We're going to add a stat respec once a year. The rabble said: You just killed the game. We're all quitting. The game didn't die. The rabble are still here. CCP said: We are going to add multiple character training. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit. CCP said: We're going to make it a little easier on newbs by giving them a few SP to play with at start-up. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! EVE is still here and so is the rabble. CCP said: Were going to make SP trading a little less convoluted. The rabble are saying: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! I predict that the game won't die and the rabble is going nowhere. And thank God for that. I do so look forward to threads like this. Carry on, rabble. Carry on. ~ed~ Adding more as I think of them. Mr Epeen Mr Epeen, rewriting history, one post at a time. Please, do carry on.
Heh...I was wondering about the reactions to these things myself...but am too lazy to go digging.
I loved the skill queue and I loved the unlimited skill queue. When the latter was implemented my main was like 6 years old...so tens of millions of SP. So I'm not sure many people complained. I'm sure some did, but I doubt it was met with this kind of response.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12726
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:39:57 -
[2125] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Bad thing is, I could live with this lol. It actually seems like a great idea in comparison to what we have been discussing in this thread. Before this thread I would have said an outright no that is a terrible idea. Perhaps this was CCPs plan all along, then they tone it down and we are all happy because we have averted complete disaster. *chuckles*
When i go find me a tinfoil hat, I'll get one for you too. We can both be protected from government spying! |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4160
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:40:18 -
[2126] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:General Lootit wrote:So why Pay2Win mechanic like PLEX is no concern to Play2Winers? Maybe because exchange hapens in which all sides in winning position. Payers gets isks and not worried about earning PLEX , tryharders gets free sub, CCP gets money. In skill transfering case something goes wrong and some side does gaining nothing or even loosing. There no secret that veterans loosing their prestige so we need to reward them more than cost exchange of unwanted skills. PLEX isn't pay2win. It's paying for someone else's subscription in exchange for ingame assets, freely agreed to by both parties. It's a genius system, unlike this proposed mess. Buying PLEX and selling it in game is a round-about method of buying ISK. Many consider buying in-game currencies in video games a type of "pay to win". It's pay to win if you buy them from the game developer who creates them out of thin air.
If you buy them from another player, it's either RMT or PLEX.
The difference is that, in case of PLEX, the developer (CCP) is not directly selling for $ a shortcut to bypass it's own gameplay mechanics, which are supposed to be well-thought and balanced, else they're pretty awful game developers to begin with.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25744
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:41:02 -
[2127] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Why is everyone fine with paying additional money to a subscription game?
F2P mobile games are brainwashing the masses.
The battle is lost.
At least we're also getting new frigate toys to play with until the servers go dark.
The only reason why you would pay extra money into EVE for this change is being you might believe SP will make you a better pilot.
I don't think you believe that at all.
And I wish I could shout you out
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BlackWilk
Black Hat Frigates Violent Declaration
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:42:07 -
[2128] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:BlackWilk wrote: I apologize if you are misunderstanding me. I will try to be more clear.
Paying for a ship does not guarantee you a win. Ill try the Barghest again. If you buy the ship but your missile skills only allow you a range of 30km, youre gonna lose. Paying for a ship and paying for the skills to fly that ship at maximum efficiency is greatly increasing the chance of success making it pay2win. Buy all the ships you want with your dollars. If you dont have the skills to fly them correctly ill destroy them all.
I was just pointing out a weird argument in your initial post. When you then agree with my counter-argument, I suppose it is fairly understandable, that I might have been confused by your statement. As to the P2W element. The way EvE works, SP is not an important metric for deciding the strength of a character. This whole proposition, and many responses in this thread. Proves to me, that even after a decade of EvE, a vast majority are still overvaluing SP and perceive that more SP means a more "powerful" character. The character is not more powerful, it is only more versatile. Combat in EvE resembles more a match of rock-paper-scissors, compared to a raw stat comparison. A character with less SP can still win over that 100M SP character, if they have the proper ship and knowledge. Combined with the fact, that getting skills to level 4 is not that long of a train and basically is 80% of the skill. Makes me take the stance, that this proposition is really not that bad as some might make it seem. But something drastic needs to be done in order to attract new players. And this drastic something, will be hated by the general population of the game, since people will not always react rational, given the amount of time investment poured into their characters. But CCP is still a company, and needs revenue in order to keep EvE "Online" (see what I did there :D God, where did that bad pun come from?). Whether this is the solution, or something else is still up for debate. Personally, I think they are on the right track, that something needs to be done to the SP system.
Ok we are starting to get towards common ground :P. I agree that SP alone is not a factor on a pilots strength or skill. My argument against this is entirely based on the following type circumstance.
I am spec'd for frigates. Still not a perfect spec but lets do this example using 2 new toons. Say toon A knows from day 1 he wants to be a garmur pilot and puts all his skills into the frigate skills towards it and the support skills and weaponry for 4 months. He finds another pilot who is in a garmur but is only 2.5 months old. lets say he gets lucky and the enemy is the exact same kind of fit (cause i do agree with you, its a rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock, lava, tons of factors game :P). the one who has been diligent in his skill decisions and training should win the fight because of sp. allowing the 2.5 month old character to just buy all the skills to perfectly spec a garmur from day 17 breaks the game for toon A. This is where i come from with buying sp being game breaking. ive totally been bested by lower sp toons :P. and sometimes ive gotten lucky and picked paper to win rock.
I dont disagree with a company needing to make money either. totally ok. lets look at the last few years. we pretty much live in a society of inflation (much like for plex to go down in price would need a miracle :P). it makes sense that ccp would need to make more money. they havent raised prices in forever. i would by happy to pay 5$ extra a month to help keep the company in business. even if they lost 20% of their character base over that price raise (and i dont feel 15-20 is that ridiculous with how long it has been 15). it would still be more income than they currently get on 15$ (more regular too since its based on subscriptions and not on whims of buying skills). |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25744
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:42:48 -
[2129] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Sibyyl wrote: 'Represents'.. please elaborate without degenerating into buzzwords without explanations. No, I don't think you're stupid. You really should know that by now and I'm a bit miffed that you would think that.
Think that because that's what you are showing me right now. Everything about this idea strikes me as wrong, I've explained as best I can why that is. Sorry if that isn't enough.
You thinking that is not enough. I don't believe you've adequately explained your reasons why.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Nafensoriel
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
136
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:43:52 -
[2130] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Nafensoriel wrote:Just needed to point out a small correction to the discussion here.
SP sales and Character trading are not identical. When you sell a character you are buying time. This time might be fully utilized the way you want it to be or it might not.. The fact remains that to get a 200m SP char from the bazzar you have to have a char which was painstakingly trained to 200m.
With SP sales you have direct injection of something now rather than later.. In essence a removal of time.
TLDR: Bazzar = Buying someone elses time. SP Trading = Autisticly removing the need for time.
Regardless of your position on this subject the above is immutable. Removing training time will have a profound effect on eve online as it has never been done before. History will tell if its the right one. I personally only dislike the system because it will be abused for RMT but beyond that I see Rises point and I can see the clear desire for CCP to moniterize the game more.
But the 500k SP points are still trained normally on the character that wants to sell them. The SP does not magically appear out of nowhere. They have already been trained, just like on the characters sold on the bazzar.
This is a common misconception.. To explain when a character is trained currently.. every minute of time used is effectively "read only".
When you turn time into a "commodity" and allow direct extraction and transition of this new "commodity" you are effectively ticking the switch that says "read only" and allowing someone to adjust time at will within very wide constraints.
IE current system: I train a character for 3 years. Sell it. The buyer gets 3 years worth of time that cannot be altered except to add to it. The buyer is in effect buying my time and only my time. The quality of my product is determined by what I used that time for.
The new system: I train a character and extract blocks of time. I sell it. Time has been removed from the equation at this point. If I sell 30m SP it will act like trained SP. IE it will act as if you yourself spent the hours to train a character but without actually spending the time.
In short it removes the immutability of time=SP and instead converts the system into SP exclusively. The entire EVE wide SP pool is now no longer locked into specific characters that must be bought and traded to be useful but instead you have a system where we can redistribute the entire pool as we see fit.
Again.. this is an individual choice as to if this is good or bad. Both sides of the argument have pros and cons. I will state again that this type of system has never existed before in eve online. SP have, until now, been considered immutably locked once trained. The gravity of this change is so massive its hard to comprehend the long term possible interactions with the community. |
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12726
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:43:58 -
[2131] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Some stray observations. CCP said: We're getting rid of learning skills. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit. CCP said: We're going to add a skill queue The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit. CCP said: We're going to add a stat respec once a year. The rabble said: You just killed the game. We're all quitting. The game didn't die. The rabble are still here. CCP said: We are going to add multiple character training. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit. CCP said: We're going to make it a little easier on newbs by giving them a few SP to play with at start-up. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! EVE is still here and so is the rabble. CCP said: Were going to make SP trading a little less convoluted. The rabble are saying: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! I predict that the game won't die and the rabble is going nowhere. And thank God for that. I do so look forward to threads like this. Carry on, rabble. Carry on. ~ed~ Adding more as I think of them. Mr Epeen Mr Epeen, rewriting history, one post at a time. Please, do carry on.
lol..
But more seriously (serious face on), the mistake people make is thinking that all dissent is just some kind fo selfish knee jerk reaction. They think "you just don't like change", mainly because they gloss over all the time a change happens and people say "I like it".
Some people do have a reaction like that, but that's not all of us. Some ideas are actually bad. Not all change is good, rather each individual change MUST be judged on it's own merits.
The "any change is good change" people remind me of this commercial.
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Chrome Veinss
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:44:37 -
[2132] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:BlackWilk wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
Would you be against respeccing without SP transfer?
i know the question wasnt at me but it was something i discussed with a corp mate. if it came at a fair cost, say once per year like respecing the attributes or a higher dollar value. i would not be against this. but it would also have the restrictions of it can only stay on a character. so moving sp from character A to character A. it would also make an interesting mechanic if you could only respec a certain amount at a time but i wouldnt consider it a requirement for me to agree. Why is everyone fine with paying additional money to a subscription game? F2P mobile games are brainwashing the masses. The battle is lost. At least we're also getting new frigate toys to play with until the servers go dark.
CCP should drop the subscription model and convert all PLEX into sellable SP imo |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
418
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:46:12 -
[2133] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:'CCP Logibro'?
Moar like 'CCP Logi-'no'!
Hate the message not the messanger !
Ah, who'm I kidding ...
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3530
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:46:19 -
[2134] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:General Lootit wrote:So why Pay2Win mechanic like PLEX is no concern to Play2Winers? Maybe because exchange hapens in which all sides in winning position. Payers gets isks and not worried about earning PLEX , tryharders gets free sub, CCP gets money. In skill transfering case something goes wrong and some side does gaining nothing or even loosing. There no secret that veterans loosing their prestige so we need to reward them more than cost exchange of unwanted skills. PLEX isn't pay2win. It's paying for someone else's subscription in exchange for ingame assets, freely agreed to by both parties. It's a genius system, unlike this proposed mess. Buying PLEX and selling it in game is a round-about method of buying ISK. Many consider buying in-game currencies in video games a type of "pay to win". It's pay to win if you buy them from the game developer who creates them out of thin air. If you buy them from another player, it's either RMT or PLEX. The difference is that, in case of PLEX, the developer (CCP) is not directly selling for $ a shortcut to bypass it's own gameplay mechanics, which are supposed to be well-thought and balanced, else they're pretty awful game developers to begin with.
Look it is pretty much buying ISK. By letting players turn them into PLEX and implementing a PLEX market it does skirt the issue, but the end result is pretty much the same...my money ends up as ISK, in the end. Trying to word smith it so it is not my money ending up as ISK is just a foolish endeavor.
In this, broad sense, it is "pay to win". I'm fine with it. I'm fine with it because if players who do not have time to grind for ISK or don't want to grind for ISK can still play the game and become targets for me or I for them...great! Everyone is having fun. Working as intended.
This current change on the other hand, conceptually I'm not opposed to it. I'm concerned that if we end up in the bad state (i.e., it can be abused and people figure it out) it could be quite bad. So...as it is currently proposed, no I can no longer support it.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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J Livermore
Flaming Sideburns Social Club
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:46:27 -
[2135] - Quote
Clancy Davis wrote:Why all the confusing mechanics? Why not just make it so you can have multiple PLEXed training queue on an a character? Or annual "skill remaps"? "[B]e creative. Instead of making sandwiches with bread, use Pop Tarts. Instead of chewing gum, chew bacon."
Marketing reasons, I think. CCP thinks this will be taken better than straight buying sp directly from them. |
Dave Stark
7561
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:47:51 -
[2136] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:No it does not. The character bazaar doesn't like you do that with one character. It lets you buy another one.
I'm telling you, if this happens, it will be bad for the game, people will abuse it (I intend to, if for no other reason that to demonstrate to the DEVs why their idea was bad) and it will end up with CCP spending time and money to go back on it. It's better if this idea is still born now.
If I'm wrong, great, no harm done. But tell me, if what I predict is right and it ends up being bad, will you come back to this thread and say so? I'm willing to.
ok humour me.
what difference does it make if you walk away with the same character or not?
see, many people have said this yet nobody has actually said how this is in any way going to break the game other than "i'm gonna abuse the **** out of this". you gonna get more sp than the game can store in a 32 bit signed interger and cause the server to implode?
if you're right - i won't be able to come back here... eve will be dead. i'll make a reddit post instead. deal? |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4165
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:48:27 -
[2137] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Hi Alex. Good to see you're still around. Gully Alex Foyle wrote:In a nutshell, I'd say the skill system is about releasing content to the individual player over time, giving a reason to remain subscribed, including a sense of progression and character development. Let's address each one of these.
- Reason to be subscribed. That's a CCP reason. What does this have to do with any of our arguments for or against?
- sense of progression. This still exists. Prerequisites are not going anywhere, and frankly no one has infinite resources such that all progression in the game is bypassed.
- character development. No I don't think stacking a bunch of skills in a list has anything to do with character or your development of it.
Wasn't trying to change your mind, you asked a question I gave my best answer.
Sibyyl wrote:Quote:I'm not against changes in the skill system, but I'm strongly against this change because it involves Aurum. It's not a new feature available to all (already paying) players, it's exclusive to those who dish out the cash to CCP. Don't like that at all.
But PLEX can be coverted to AUR. Aye, but:
1) from CCP's point of view, PLEX is an obligation (to give a service, i.e. this game we play), AUR is additional revenues for... what? the game they should already be giving to players that sub or buy PLEX?
2) PLEX comes from people's wallets. more AUR = more PLEX (if you want to convert) = higher milking of the player base, and this time it's not for vanity stuff but for SP, which is a pretty useful gameplay resource. not good to offer gameplay-relevant stuff for $. CCP has never done so, I believe they should keep it that way
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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BlackWilk
Black Hat Frigates Violent Declaration
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:50:31 -
[2138] - Quote
Nafensoriel wrote:Maekchu wrote:Nafensoriel wrote:Just needed to point out a small correction to the discussion here.
SP sales and Character trading are not identical. When you sell a character you are buying time. This time might be fully utilized the way you want it to be or it might not.. The fact remains that to get a 200m SP char from the bazzar you have to have a char which was painstakingly trained to 200m.
With SP sales you have direct injection of something now rather than later.. In essence a removal of time.
TLDR: Bazzar = Buying someone elses time. SP Trading = Autisticly removing the need for time.
Regardless of your position on this subject the above is immutable. Removing training time will have a profound effect on eve online as it has never been done before. History will tell if its the right one. I personally only dislike the system because it will be abused for RMT but beyond that I see Rises point and I can see the clear desire for CCP to moniterize the game more.
But the 500k SP points are still trained normally on the character that wants to sell them. The SP does not magically appear out of nowhere. They have already been trained, just like on the characters sold on the bazzar. This is a common misconception.. To explain when a character is trained currently.. every minute of time used is effectively "read only". When you turn time into a "commodity" and allow direct extraction and transition of this new "commodity" you are effectively ticking the switch that says "read only" and allowing someone to adjust time at will within very wide constraints. IE current system: I train a character for 3 years. Sell it. The buyer gets 3 years worth of time that cannot be altered except to add to it. The buyer is in effect buying my time and only my time. The quality of my product is determined by what I used that time for. The new system: I train a character and extract blocks of time. I sell it. Time has been removed from the equation at this point. If I sell 30m SP it will act like trained SP. IE it will act as if you yourself spent the hours to train a character but without actually spending the time. In short it removes the immutability of time=SP and instead converts the system into SP exclusively. The entire EVE wide SP pool is now no longer locked into specific characters that must be bought and traded to be useful but instead you have a system where we can redistribute the entire pool as we see fit. Again.. this is an individual choice as to if this is good or bad. Both sides of the argument have pros and cons. I will state again that this type of system has never existed before in eve online. SP have, until now, been considered immutably locked once trained. The gravity of this change is so massive its hard to comprehend the long term possible interactions with the community.
though not used as an arguement against this new change, i love how you put the comparisson of time=the quality of your toon over just injecting skill points. well phrased mr philosopher. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4165
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:50:34 -
[2139] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Why is everyone fine with paying additional money to a subscription game?
F2P mobile games are brainwashing the masses.
The battle is lost.
At least we're also getting new frigate toys to play with until the servers go dark. The only reason why you would pay extra money into EVE for this change is being you might believe SP will make you a better pilot. I don't think you believe that at all. True, in fact I believe this would be a ripoff, and I'm not comfortable with CCP ripping off its players, even if I personally wouldn't fall for it.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25744
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:52:31 -
[2140] - Quote
The PLEX->AUR->MCT->ISK->PLEX workflow stability follows the PLEX to ISK conversion price curve.
I can't really speak to the motivation for AUR. I agree it's confusing.. but we already have MCTs for AUR and MCTs are essentially 30 days (or 2M SP).
And I wish I could shout you out
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25744
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:55:42 -
[2141] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:I'm telling you, if this happens, it will be bad for the game, people will abuse it (I intend to, if for no other reason that to demonstrate to the DEVs why their idea was bad) and it will end up with CCP spending time and money to go back on it. It's better if this idea is still born now.
Jenn, you and I both. My plans have already been made. It will be glorious.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
659
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:56:37 -
[2142] - Quote
Chrome Veinss wrote:CCP should drop the subscription model and convert all PLEX into sellable SP imo
I had some choice words for this idea, but unbelievably silly is what I'll stick with.
Do you hate EvE so much that you want to see it go the way of 99.99% of free to play 'games' that are little more than poorly disguised pay to win skinner boxes?
Show me more than 3 free to play games that have lasted 12 years with speakable player base. Free to play is an excellent bussiness model because of whales, but basically a death sentence on game longevity.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
33
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:57:41 -
[2143] - Quote
Not opposed. But maybe you should give new players a fair warning: *buying* SP does not make you pro. Whatever you do, make sure they get that message.
Helping out newbros is all dandy and well, but I have seen one case in particular (which I kicked out of my corp because of overwhelming :stupid:) that burnt all his dad's PLEX on faction ships and mods, whilst having no clue how to fly them properly. Needless to say, he lost it all in no time, and ragequit.
The morale of the story? The slow SP progression is a good thing. It allows people to learn to fly one thing properly before stepping up to the next. Small buckets of tears can be consumed. Large buckets will drown the player and that'll be the end of it.
So the question is: is it fair to offer them a costly boost to INGAME skills whereas in fact it takes TIME and PRACTICE (=outgame skills) ?
The way the skill tree currently works, by never advancing beyond level V, already allows new players to be equally good at something real quick. The only thing a vet has over a newbro, is more options. (and more importantly, a more thorough understanding of the capsuleers you'll encounter). Slowly advancing through the game mechanics and longing for those T2/T3s is what keeps you going at first, is what makes you a better pilot in the end.
So, before you sell this magic snake oil... please consider the advertising. Make sure that what's in the box matches the label. Thank you. |
Chrome Veinss
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:59:06 -
[2144] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:BlackWilk wrote: I apologize if you are misunderstanding me. I will try to be more clear.
Paying for a ship does not guarantee you a win. Ill try the Barghest again. If you buy the ship but your missile skills only allow you a range of 30km, youre gonna lose. Paying for a ship and paying for the skills to fly that ship at maximum efficiency is greatly increasing the chance of success making it pay2win. Buy all the ships you want with your dollars. If you dont have the skills to fly them correctly ill destroy them all.
I was just pointing out a weird argument in your initial post. When you then agree with my counter-argument, I suppose it is fairly understandable, that I might have been confused by your statement. As to the P2W element. The way EvE works, SP is not an important metric for deciding the strength of a character. This whole proposition, and many responses in this thread. Proves to me, that even after a decade of EvE, a vast majority are still overvaluing SP and perceive that more SP means a more "powerful" character. The character is not more powerful, it is only more versatile. Combat in EvE resembles more a match of rock-paper-scissors, compared to a raw stat comparison. A character with less SP can still win over that 100M SP character, if they have the proper ship and knowledge. Combined with the fact, that getting skills to level 4 is not that long of a train and basically is 80% of the skill. Makes me take the stance, that this proposition is really not that bad as some might make it seem. But something drastic needs to be done in order to attract new players. And this drastic something, will be hated by the general population of the game, since people will not always react rational, given the amount of time investment poured into their characters. But CCP is still a company, and needs revenue in order to keep EvE "Online" (see what I did there :D God, where did that bad pun come from?). Whether this is the solution, or something else is still up for debate. Personally, I think they are on the right track, that something needs to be done to the SP system.
Something WAAAAAY more drastic that fundamentally changes how this game is played or its business model needs to be done to get the EVE population to healthy numbers. Right now most space is empty. Dead. If this very minor proposal causes such a hysteric reaction from people, I can easily imagine a situation where change averse players holding back the evolution of the game end up killing it |
Teinyhr
Ourumur
490
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 19:59:28 -
[2145] - Quote
I see nothing wrong with this. Out of all MMO players EVE's are perhaps the most resistant to change, so you got your work cut out for you CCP, but I wish you luck. |
Pronoes
The Volition Cult
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:01:06 -
[2146] - Quote
This won't happen now anyway. Not after this response, regardless of whether it is a stroke of genius or an idea scraped from the bottom of the lolwut bin. One only has to search for "SOE SWG Combat Upgrade" to find the last time I saw such a visceral reaction from the player base. If CCP want to learn from others mistakes then so be it. If they want to force this on regardless then so be it. I don't care one way or the other but apparently a lot of people do. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4165
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:04:31 -
[2147] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:see, many people have said this yet nobody has actually said how this is in any way going to break the game other than "i'm gonna abuse the **** out of this". I don't think it will break the game.
I trust guys like you and Epeen that know the character bazaar when you say it won't change much.
And in a sense, that's exactly why I dislike this idea. Depending obviously on how much it will cost, it's basically ripping off SP-greedy players, giving small skill progression gains for $.
I believe many more players will be pis*ed about this, newbros and vets alike, than the ones that will like it.
Them being pis*ed may or may not translate into them leaving the game, but still I'd prefer New Eden to have happy, excited, motivated players, not angry or jaded players.
Also, I think on CCP's part it's a badly thought idea just to make some extra buck, which worries me about CCP's objectives, priorities, and capability.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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BlackWilk
Black Hat Frigates Violent Declaration
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:05:21 -
[2148] - Quote
Chrome Veinss wrote:
Something WAAAAAY more drastic that fundamentally changes how this game is played or its business model needs to be done to get the EVE population to healthy numbers. Right now most space is empty. Dead. If this very minor proposal causes such a hysteric reaction from people, I can easily imagine a situation where change averse players holding back the evolution of the game end up killing it
not averse to change. i dont think that some one who has 1000$ more to spend than i do should be allowed more character development than me. |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:05:40 -
[2149] - Quote
Saidra Whitewolf wrote:Okay, so I realize the game active subscriber count is dropping, yeah so CCP is making less money recently probably on their game... BUT, part of why this is happening is because HiSec is basically the most dangerous place in the game with all the griefing going on. So most people get tired of being fkng suicide ganked and wardecced in their first few weeks of playing and quit.
This new cash cow enterprise of selling SP will ultimately fail, because all of the bittervets will ragequit, most of the others will be turned off by the dev team, and some people will unsub. In the short term, yeah, tons of people will be buying SP. Hell, even the players whining about it will buy it, but it could mark the beginning of the end for this game in the long run.
In short, this is a money grab decision for CCP, likely because they see the game beginning to lose subscribers and it is part of their bail-out plan. I do NOT support it.
100% all of this completely. I couldn't agree more. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
145
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:06:48 -
[2150] - Quote
Nafensoriel wrote: The new system: I train a character and extract blocks of time. I sell it. Time has been removed from the equation at this point. If I sell 30m SP it will act like trained SP. IE it will act as if you yourself spent the hours to train a character but without actually spending the time.
The nominal value of the SP is still trained by the seller. But I do agree, that with the SP being unallocated, that means you can transfer SP to other skills then originally trained. But time is not lost, since time is still used on training on the seller.
In your above example, it is true that 30m SP will just be injected on your character. But these 30M SP have been trained on another character and effectively transferred to your character, since they are lost on the other character. If they remained on the seller, then yes, you would be right in the fact that time has been lost.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3531
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:08:21 -
[2151] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:see, many people have said this yet nobody has actually said how this is in any way going to break the game other than "i'm gonna abuse the **** out of this". I don't think it will break the game. I trust guys like you and Epeen that know the character bazaar when you say it won't change much. And in a sense, that's exactly why I dislike this idea. Depending obviously on how much it will cost, it's basically ripping off SP-greedy players, giving small skill progression gains for $. I believe many more players will be pis*ed about this, newbros and vets alike, than the ones that will like it. Them being pis*ed may or may not translate into them leaving the game, but still I'd prefer New Eden to have happy, excited, motivated players, not angry or jaded players. Also, I think on CCP's part it's a badly thought idea just to make some extra buck, which worries me about CCP's objectives, priorities, and capability.
Why would vets be pissed? They still have their skills, unless they choose to sell SP, and they have the in-game knowledge. And new players, they know what they are getting for their money, so why would they be pissed?
I just see this as a valid objection...unless I missed something.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4167
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:08:39 -
[2152] - Quote
Chrome Veinss wrote:Something WAAAAAY more drastic that fundamentally changes how this game is played or its business model needs to be done to get the EVE population to healthy numbers. Right now most space is empty. Dead. If this very minor proposal causes such a hysteric reaction from people, I can easily imagine a situation where change averse players holding back the evolution of the game end up killing it Agree, I just hope CCP develops something more exciting than this crap SP-for-AUR idea. I'll certainly concede they have a tough job.
Also, that's a pretty good avatar you have.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Laodell
Executable Inc.
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:08:59 -
[2153] - Quote
This would be a lot of fun, and a new purpose other than just collecting the corpses of your foes. |
Lelira Cirim
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
233
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:09:01 -
[2154] - Quote
Kazikings wrote: Long term planning and finally getting a long skill to V is a memorable and fond moment and should not be buyabe for AUR, neither for ISK
"Skill Shopping Completed."
Do not actively tank my patience.
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
412
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:11:31 -
[2155] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Some stray observations.
CCP said: We're getting rid of learning skills. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit!
The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit.
CCP said: We're going to add a skill queue The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit!
The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit.
CCP said: We're going to add a stat respec once a year. The rabble said: You just killed the game. We're all quitting.
The game didn't die. The rabble are still here.
CCP said: We are going to add multiple character training. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit!
The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit.
CCP said: We're going to make it a little easier on newbs by giving them a few SP to play with at start-up. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit!
EVE is still here and so is the rabble.
CCP said: Were going to make SP trading a little less convoluted. The rabble are saying: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit!
I predict that the game won't die and the rabble is going nowhere. And thank God for that. I do so look forward to threads like this.
Carry on, rabble. Carry on.
~ed~ Adding more as I think of them.
Mr Epeen Cool Game won't die. Quality of player base will change. It's pandora box, once open it can't be close again. In long term EvE will become microtransaction game. " If I can buy SP, why not deadspace modules?". People are inpatient. " I pay, I want more!" or "I wanna buy titan and win EvE". EvE needs commitment to play, it's a sandbox, instant gratification crowd will not do any good here. PS. I'm ex-miner, spend great time, with great people in mine-ops. Never regret it.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Marsha Mallow
2627
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:13:39 -
[2156] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo. It's not the size that matters, it's the content. And there's not a lot of content in this thread. Just froth and tears. Mr Epeen The meltdowns are fine. Let it all out. It's like a grieving process. First the ranting, then the resignation, then sulking, then crying. Or all of those at the same time. It's entertaining at least. And for a change there's no overt attempt to crucify the dev who wrote the blog, which is refreshing. Maybe that #firefozzie campaign will have some lasting positive effects given people are aware if they try it they'll get wolloped by other players.
This topic highlights a very real and entrenched line of thinking within the playerbase and how they respond to calls for radical change. Actually, the vets can handle just about any change - they already have, repeatedly. There are legitimate concerns about changes that might fundamentally 'break' the core design principles. But there is also xenophobia within the community and EvE players don't want to be overrun by PTW types who might damage the tone of the game. That's fair enough, but frankly, if we can convert Goons 'the last boss of the internet' and Test 'self proclaimed reddit autists' into EvE players I'm pretty sure we can deal with just about anyone. They'll have to beaten, obviously. For immersion.
Instead of pursuading people on the fence (or those with an opposing view) to adopt the same stance, those arguing against this most forcefully are actually campaigning for the change in some ways. You can't impose an attitude change upon another person by making patronising remarks, contradicting them, or being personally abusive. And it won't work on CCP either. Some of us are just naturally more optimistic and open to the idea of radical change than others. Doesn't mean we're stupid or need to be lectured. Especially not by people who engage in aggressive debate and either have no idea how offensive it is as a means to make a point, or just don't care. We can factionalise ourselves into respective camps: those who throw a tantrum, and those who try not to. At that point it should become obvious one side has a massive advantage.
The people who are amenable to this idea are visibly calmer and more considered in their responses. There's also more willingness to negotiate. However, this one needs to be sold, not argued. I spoke to a few people ingame yesterday to get a feel for it and their initial reaction was largely negative, moving from extreme annoyance to resignation. Then pouting. I did my best not to point out the hilarious aspects, but since I find everything funny, ended up having to log rather than tease someone cruelly for fun. When you get them to systematically list their objections and examine their personal motivations, it stops. Quite dramatically. Mainly because every one of them has a strong counterargument, and they're smart enough to notice it right at the point they start elaborating. There's a lot of thinking going on at the moment, and it's probably worth letting that play out for as long as possible. Needs a few days for the ranters to calm down and be a bit embarassed over it, which seems to be in motion. It's not unreasonable to express annoyance.
Forcing a paradigm shift is probably one of the most difficult endeavors in any setting - but we actually have stacks of handy ingame precedents to refer to. The Phoebe power projection changes being the most obvious. I saw someone on reddit make a list of all of the most significant design changes and how they were all touted as EvE killers but we could just as easily produce a list of fundamentally broken mechanics that were altered with massive improvements to gameplay as a result. Depends which you categorise retention as, but it's so disgustingly low it's evidence in itself.
You have to ask, why the hell are people so resistant to a change that would spectacularly improve retention when the PCU is visibly in decline? And since when did skillpoints become the holy grail? SP does not make you a 'winner' - it's a passive training system that increases your efficiency ingame. Doesn't make you rich, a celebrity, an FC, a pro pvper or a leader. It facilitates gameplay. At the higher end of the scale it's a vanity thing - and it's not as though the highest SP alts ingame aren't already being traded for this reason.
It's blatantly obvious there are already people coming into game who buy characters and spend thousands on plex, accounts, pimpmobiles etc. So what? They still die the same as anyone else. They have no means to purchase or influence game development in their favour. You can't even 'win' EvE Online in the first place. SP is just a marker for how long you've been playing. I sometimes wonder if people regard their SP pool as some sort of measure of how valuable they are to CCP and the wider community. No offence, but some of the bittervets are whiny neckbeards who add nothing to anyone. If they annoy the community there's a chance they irritate CCP at times. That association between longevity ingame and entitlement is also a form of PTW.
People have either genuinely forgotten just how bad the first year of play is, or they're deluded. Or they see it as some sort of rite of passage that everyone must suffer, because they had to. Or they think this new brand of player will come in and demand the game is nerfed into the ground once they realise their attempt to buy uberness fails.
There are compromises to this proposal as well. If need be limits could be placed upon the amount of SP a character is able to extract or inject per year. It could be hard capped at no more than 20m. But I don't see why that should be imposed other than pettiness.
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
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Don Aubaris
138
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:15:24 -
[2157] - Quote
It's always the same basic problem. No bloody respect from DEVs for the achievements of their player base.
People worked for years to get a mass of skillpoints. And now they are 'free' for people with deep pockets?
It's one thing to 'change' from character by buying a new one, that's after all someone else his hard work , including all the good decisions and all the bad. But splitting a char up in just free to use skillpoints is making a mockery of the players efforts.
So make a 'clone bazar' where you can buy someone's alt, if that alt has at least 10million skillpoints or so. Make it so that you get that one 'fresh', without history. New name, new face,.... and a loss of 20% of his skill points. Otherwise this will be just used to get a new identity between 2 accounts of 1 player.
But if you absolutely want to go ahead with this silly idea, then make it at least so that you can only sell skills at level V and not the skillpoints . That is, if you trained Omber Reprocessing V then you can sell Omber Reprocessing V. The seller will loose the skillpoints and the skill. The buyer will get the skillpoints and the skill. Assuming he has all the prerequisites. Otherwise he can only sell them on.
Or even you should make it so that you don't get it all immediate but that you only reduce the skill level with 1. So if you buy Omber Reprocessing V which is a level 2 skill, then it becomes a level 1 skill. The buyer will still have to learn it. It will just go faster. (and for level 1 skills you can make it 0.5 or so). The advantage being that it still requires some effort from the buyer. And that high level skills still require a lot of effort, or several skill packages for someone who wants it all very fast. |
Chrome Veinss
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:15:46 -
[2158] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Chrome Veinss wrote:CCP should drop the subscription model and convert all PLEX into sellable SP imo I had some choice words for this idea, but unbelievably silly is what I'll stick with. Do you hate EvE so much that you want to see it go the way of 99.99% of free to play 'games' that are little more than poorly disguised pay to win skinner boxes? Show me more than 3 free to play games that have lasted 12 years with speakable player base. Free to play is an excellent bussiness model because of whales, but basically a death sentence on game longevity.
I dont want to see it go the way of slowly bleeding subscriptions as cool stuff arrives too little too late, which is what has been going on basically since I started playing. The only difference between paying for sp and paying for a subscription or plexing an account is the time factor and I dont see any benefit to maintaining the time barrier, eliminating it gets more people in space flying more ships faster. If the problem is creating a more dynamic sp market so that people constantly buy sp to make up for subscription money then simply add more sp sinks. Im not advocating for this, just trying to think of possibilities beyond having everything stay the same with ever increasing PLEX prices and decreasing player numbers |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4167
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:16:19 -
[2159] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Why would vets be pissed? They still have their skills, unless they choose to sell SP, and they have the in-game knowledge. And new players, they know what they are getting for their money, so why would they be pissed?
I just see this as a valid objection...unless I missed something. Mostly (but not only) for non-rational reasons, but that isn't a reason to underestimate them:
Vets: proud of their SP earned 'the hard way', or because 'they've seen this crap before' (e.g. monocle-gate), or because devs are 'wasting time' on features that don't impact them in any way, etc....
Newbros: because they need to spend cash, because when they'll do the math they'll still complain that this doesn't really help them to 'close the SP gap with vets', because maybe they'll use this for their first months then realize that (especially in PVP), player skills count more than SP, so they'll feel ripped off, etc....
Again, not saying any or all of these are good reasons to be mad, but I expect people to be mad. And from CCPs point of view, they're risking unhappy customers for very little short-term gain.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
145
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:20:40 -
[2160] - Quote
BlackWilk wrote: Ok we are starting to get towards common ground :P. I agree that SP alone is not a factor on a pilots strength or skill. My argument against this is entirely based on the following type circumstance.
I am spec'd for frigates. Still not a perfect spec but lets do this example using 2 new toons. Say toon A knows from day 1 he wants to be a garmur pilot and puts all his skills into the frigate skills towards it and the support skills and weaponry for 4 months. He finds another pilot who is in a garmur but is only 2.5 months old. lets say he gets lucky and the enemy is the exact same kind of fit (cause i do agree with you, its a rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock, lava, tons of factors game :P). the one who has been diligent in his skill decisions and training should win the fight because of sp. allowing the 2.5 month old character to just buy all the skills to perfectly spec a garmur from day 17 breaks the game for toon A. This is where i come from with buying sp being game breaking. ive totally been bested by lower sp toons :P. and sometimes ive gotten lucky and picked paper to win rock.
I dont disagree with a company needing to make money either. totally ok. lets look at the last few years. we pretty much live in a society of inflation (much like for plex to go down in price would need a miracle :P). it makes sense that ccp would need to make more money. they havent raised prices in forever. i would by happy to pay 5$ extra a month to help keep the company in business. even if they lost 20% of their character base over that price raise (and i dont feel 15-20 is that ridiculous with how long it has been 15). it would still be more income than they currently get on 15$ (more regular too since its based on subscriptions and not on whims of buying skills).
And you are totally right. If two toons having the same ships, with the exact same fits and piloted the exact same way. The one with the most SP relevant for that particular ship will win.
However, losing or winning a battle in EvE rarely comes down to not having that lvl 5 skill. More often, it relies on superior piloting or a better fit. Given my own experience with PvP and the deeds of some other pilots (like Suitonia and his low SP PvP videos), is the reason I don't deem this change game breaking, since I don't find SP that important when deciding power in EvE.
But at least we agree that CCP needs to do something in order to become viable in today's MMO market. While it is maybe not the ideal proposition. Hopefully, constructive feedback (opposed to knee-jerk whining) will actually result in something positive in the end. I am just happy, that CCP acknowledges something drastic needs to happen.
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Dave Stark
7561
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:23:46 -
[2161] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote: Game won't die. Quality of player base will change. It's pandora box, once open it can't be close again. In long term EvE will become microtransaction game. " If I can buy SP, why not deadspace modules?". People are inpatient. " I pay, I want more!" or "I wanna buy titan and win EvE". EvE needs commitment to play, it's a sandbox, instant gratification crowd will not do any good here. PS. I'm ex-miner, spend great time, with great people in mine-ops. Never regret it.
erm, buying deadspace modules/ships already exists. just buy a plex, sell it, and buy what you want. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
145
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:27:55 -
[2162] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote: Game won't die. Quality of player base will change. It's pandora box, once open it can't be close again. In long term EvE will become microtransaction game. " If I can buy SP, why not deadspace modules?". People are inpatient. " I pay, I want more!" or "I wanna buy titan and win EvE". EvE needs commitment to play, it's a sandbox, instant gratification crowd will not do any good here. PS. I'm ex-miner, spend great time, with great people in mine-ops. Never regret it.
You can already buy deadspace modules and Titans for IRL money. Buy plex convert to ISK.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4175
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:29:08 -
[2163] - Quote
Great post, Miss Mallow!Marsha Mallow wrote:You have to ask, why the hell are people so resistant to a change that would spectacularly improve retention when the PCU is visibly in decline? I have a couple of questions on this:
1. Why do you think this idea would spectacularly improve retention?
2. Don't you think it's bad to offer SP-trading, but only linked to AUR? Discriminating based on willingness and/or capability to fork out extra cash on top of a sub? Milking extra money for a feature that - maybe, if you're right - will already generate money by improving retention? Why not offer a SP-trading mechanic, but without the AUR part?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3531
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:30:56 -
[2164] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote: Game won't die. Quality of player base will change. It's pandora box, once open it can't be close again. In long term EvE will become microtransaction game. " If I can buy SP, why not deadspace modules?". People are inpatient. " I pay, I want more!" or "I wanna buy titan and win EvE". EvE needs commitment to play, it's a sandbox, instant gratification crowd will not do any good here. PS. I'm ex-miner, spend great time, with great people in mine-ops. Never regret it.
erm, buying deadspace modules/ships already exists. just buy a plex, sell it, and buy what you want.
This is true. Right now if you want to get in a titan and you have lots of RL money you can do this pretty quick. You'll probably lose that titan pretty quick too...but hey, you're a titan pilot on day 1...if you really want that kind of thing.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2721
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:31:21 -
[2165] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo. It's not the size that matters, it's the content. And there's not a lot of content in this thread. Just froth and tears. Mr Epeen Those stats don't show what you think they show. Let's look at some of these prolific posters having a "forum meltdown" from your own link.
Querns 128 posts (5.9%) Dave Stark 95 posts (4.4%) Teckos Pech 67 posts (3.1%) Tyberius Franklin 51 posts (2.4%) Alavaria Fera 43 posts (2.0%)
These are 5 of the top 7 posters, all have been very much for the proposed changes. In point of fact, most of the disaffected users, so called "froth and tears" posts tend to post they're concerns once or twice and then leave the thread - while those 5 users post over and over how this proposed feature is exactly the same as the character bazaar. As if by repetition, they will prevent the community from seeing the obvious.
Ironically, your link shows the exact opposite of what you describe. A small cadre of users are desperate for this feature to go through, and the majority of posters (not posts) are strongly against this change. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9253
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:31:49 -
[2166] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: However, losing or winning a battle in EvE rarely comes down to not having that lvl 5 skill...
I'm so used to the abysmal use of the English language in here that the word losing jumped out at me as being the wrong spelling.
That is scarier to me than this whole CCP just killed the game crap that is at the root of this Republican manifesto wrapped up in the guise of a SP allocation thread.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3531
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:32:04 -
[2167] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Great post, Miss Mallow! Marsha Mallow wrote:You have to ask, why the hell are people so resistant to a change that would spectacularly improve retention when the PCU is visibly in decline? I have a couple of questions on this: 1. Why do you think this idea would spectacularly improve retention? 2. Don't you think it's bad to offer SP-trading, but only linked to AUR? Discriminating based on willingness and/or capability to fork out extra cash on top of a sub? Milking extra money for a feature that - maybe, if you're right - will already generate money by improving retention? Why not offer a SP-trading mechanic, but without the AUR part?
The SP packets and the extractors can be sold on the market for ISK.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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BlackWilk
Black Hat Frigates Violent Declaration
11
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Posted - 2015.10.16 20:32:52 -
[2168] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: And you are totally right. If two toons having the same ships, with the exact same fits and piloted the exact same way. The one with the most SP relevant for that particular ship will win.
However, losing or winning a battle in EvE rarely comes down to not having that lvl 5 skill. More often, it relies on superior piloting or a better fit. Given my own experience with PvP and the deeds of some other pilots (like Suitonia and his low SP PvP videos), is the reason I don't deem this change game breaking, since I don't find SP that important when deciding power in EvE.
But at least we agree that CCP needs to do something in order to become viable in today's MMO market. While it is maybe not the ideal proposition. Hopefully, constructive feedback (opposed to knee-jerk whining) will actually result in something positive in the end. I am just happy, that CCP acknowledges something drastic needs to happen.
i do recognize that it is very rarely where it comes down to sp. but just because its a rare occurrence doesnt mean it is without affect entirely in other situations. to kite someone not only depends on your piloting as a person or on your ship, but your speed is affected by your sp in those areas. thus still affecting everything else. it is a very small factor in most fights but it still shouldnt be disregarded to a point where people with deep pockets are favored.
i am trying to do more than just knee-jerk whining. yesterday talking with my corp mate was knee-jerk whining. ive been hoping today i would be more of a debate than a baby :P. youve helped me articulate quite a bit. sorry if ive sounded like a ***** more than someone trying to express a valid opinion.
i liked one idea where extra skill points could be processed from collected corpses. i think these could then be used on the person or sold on the market if they wanted to. much like other loot. i think this would be a good way to create real value towards the sp earn/bought. it would make the source of supply much more towards in game content then just having some alts sitting there training sp. still favors deep pockets by a little bit, but i think it would mitigate it to a level that puts it more along the lines of buying ships with plex. that ship is only there available to buy because somewhere along the supply chain someone spent the time to mine the minerals and someone else spent the time to get/research the blueprint. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12737
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:33:56 -
[2169] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Maekchu wrote: However, losing or winning a battle in EvE rarely comes down to not having that lvl 5 skill...
I'm so used to the abysmal use of the English language in here that the word losing jumped out at me as being the wrong spelling. That is scarier to me than this whole CCP just killed the game crap that is at the root of this Republican manifesto wrapped up in the guise of an SP allocation thread. Mr Epeen
And it's here that you see the prejudice that informs this posters thinking. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
145
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:34:05 -
[2170] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote: 2. Don't you think it's bad to offer SP-trading, but only linked to AUR? Discriminating based on willingness and/or capability to fork out extra cash on top of a sub? Milking extra money for a feature that - maybe, if you're right - will already generate money by improving retention? Why not offer a SP-trading mechanic, but without the AUR part?
Given that a PLEX can be converted to AUR, I actually don't find this too bad. If AUR was only limited as something that could be attained with IRL money, then I might have agreed on your point. |
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
415
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:34:11 -
[2171] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: erm, buying deadspace modules/ships already exists. just buy a plex, sell it, and buy what you want.
I meant golden ammo, ammo, for the love of Jita monument! I spoke with my girlfiend who played microtransactions mmo (I have no experience). Her conclusions: vets will be gone (most of them), new players will stay for a while but without being hooked (and it's hard to be hooked to EvE) will leave too. It's two way payment, subs/plex and paying for SP. SP is used not only for combat. There won't be any attachment for characters, you may rename them to: slot 1, slot 2 and slot 3. I think she's a bitter vet althought she not played EvE at all. "It's a bit too much science, I'll log D3 and chop some demons".
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3531
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:34:39 -
[2172] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo. It's not the size that matters, it's the content. And there's not a lot of content in this thread. Just froth and tears. Mr Epeen Those stats don't show what you think they show. Let's look at some of these prolific posters having a "forum meltdown" from your own link. Querns 128 posts (5.9%) Dave Stark 95 posts (4.4%) Teckos Pech 67 posts (3.1%) Tyberius Franklin 51 posts (2.4%) Alavaria Fera 43 posts (2.0%) These are 5 of the top 7 posters, all have been very much for the proposed changes. In point of fact, most of the disaffected users, so called "froth and tears" posts tend to post they're concerns once or twice and then leave the thread - while those 5 users post over and over how this proposed feature is exactly the same as the character bazaar. As if by repetition, they will prevent the community from seeing the obvious. Ironically, your link shows the exact opposite of what you describe. A small cadre of users are desperate for this feature to go through, and the majority of posters (not posts) are strongly against this change.
Sorry, I've changed my mind as I noted several pages back. I still think lots of people are having knee-jerk reactions and are saying no for the wrong reasons...but they got to the right answer in the end.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Chrome Veinss
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:35:31 -
[2173] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Great post, Miss Mallow! Marsha Mallow wrote:You have to ask, why the hell are people so resistant to a change that would spectacularly improve retention when the PCU is visibly in decline? I have a couple of questions on this: 1. Why do you think this idea would spectacularly improve retention? 2. Don't you think it's bad to offer SP-trading, but only linked to AUR? Discriminating based on willingness and/or capability to fork out extra cash on top of a sub? Milking extra money for a feature that - maybe, if you're right - will already generate money by improving retention? Why not offer a SP-trading mechanic, but without the AUR part?
re: 2. you can buy aur with isk, and you can buy whatever aur buys with isk so i don't see how its "milking people for real life cash". I'm not going to be spending any extra money as long as I pay for a subscription, but I'd be interested in buying some sp for isk. |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2722
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:36:17 -
[2174] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo. It's not the size that matters, it's the content. And there's not a lot of content in this thread. Just froth and tears. Mr Epeen Those stats don't show what you think they show. Let's look at some of these prolific posters having a "forum meltdown" from your own link. Querns 128 posts (5.9%) Dave Stark 95 posts (4.4%) Teckos Pech 67 posts (3.1%) Tyberius Franklin 51 posts (2.4%) Alavaria Fera 43 posts (2.0%) These are 5 of the top 7 posters, all have been very much for the proposed changes. In point of fact, most of the disaffected users, so called "froth and tears" posts tend to post they're concerns once or twice and then leave the thread - while those 5 users post over and over how this proposed feature is exactly the same as the character bazaar. As if by repetition, they will prevent the community from seeing the obvious. Ironically, your link shows the exact opposite of what you describe. A small cadre of users are desperate for this feature to go through, and the majority of posters (not posts) are strongly against this change. Sorry, I've changed my mind as I noted several pages back. I still think lots of people are having knee-jerk reactions and are saying no for the wrong reasons...but they got to the right answer in the end. My mistake, will edit the post accordingly. |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
18
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:36:45 -
[2175] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:General Lootit wrote:So why Pay2Win mechanic like PLEX is no concern to Play2Winers? Maybe because exchange hapens in which all sides in winning position. Payers gets isks and not worried about earning PLEX , tryharders gets free sub, CCP gets money. In skill transfering case something goes wrong and some side does gaining nothing or even loosing. There no secret that veterans loosing their prestige so we need to reward them more than cost exchange of unwanted skills. PLEX isn't pay2win. It's paying for someone else's subscription in exchange for ingame assets, freely agreed to by both parties.
No matter how you abstract the concept it's still P2W. I can spend RL $ on a PLEX, and buy my Titan Skillbook, and Titan.
I payed, now I win. Will I appreciate the value of the Titan if I lose it? At current prices buying 6 plex packets at a time would require about 72 ~ 73 PLEXs at just over $100 each. I can buy a Titan for a little over $800 USD.
Will my heart race if I am about to lose $800 USD ? Not nearly as much if I put the effort into the Titan the long way.
Fortunately ? I don't have that cash to blow on a Titan.
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Cancel Align NOW
Maas Industries
619
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:37:18 -
[2176] - Quote
I have gone from sitting on the fence to supporting this idea. My reason is that I found an old account with 3 50mil sp alts on it that I have not had subbed since 2011. I shall do my part to help newbros by cashing out that sp when the market has stabilised at a level I am happy with, my concern is that there might be a couple of hundred thousand alts all sitting in a similiar position to mine. |
Sgt Ocker
Military Bustards
727
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:38:10 -
[2177] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: Just a side note, if bazaar is removed it will be back on very fast. Since without it RMT ing of chars would increase and since the income of SP packet trading would be nowhere near the income from bazaar transactions.
Sorry but my income would be all but gone if the bazaar and SP sales were to go side by side. I generally do cheaper, what you may call starter toons of between 30 and 50 mil SP. Unless CCP were to charge extremely high prices for the SP packages (will encourage RMT'rs) and set a limit of how many can be applied to any one character (sort of defeats the purpose) the characters I sell will never be worth enough to make it worth doing them anymore. The current high price of plex is already having an affect, people don't want to pay more for the characters but the cost paid to CCP to trade them has gone up over 100% since I started doing it - It used to cost me 1 bil isk now it is getting close to 2.5 bil but my characters are only selling for 1 to 1.5 bil isk more than they were a few years ago. Some traders must be actually just breaking even on sales as some chars sell for little more than the cost of the training and 2 plex needed to pay CCP. -- - -- - -- - --
Quote:Why not instead move the experience into the client? By doing that we increase discoverability and we can avoid the awkward auction system. Moving the bazaar to the client or at least having it duplicated in the client may make it easier for players to find but unless it is a dedicated app that has specific search functions it is not going to really achieve much. The worst aspect of the bazaar is trying to find what you are looking for. Hundreds of characters listed makes finding one that suits your needs a tiresome and often frustrating undertaking. (why some players end up with crappy names and terribad corp histories)
CCP say the auction system of the character bazaar is "awkward" (what about eve has ever been easy) but they are so wrong. The auction system is what makes the bazaar great, players will pay for what they want. There is (up till now) no real fixed price for SP, it is worth what you will pay for it. Depending on how the SP is used to a large extent will add or detract from the value of the character - CCP is looking to give SP a set $ / isk value which will kill the character bazaar especially for any character with less than 50 mil SP.
Yes Kil2, some people end up with crappy names and horrible corp histories - Bottom line, the choice was YOURS, no-one forced you to buy that particular character. You could have waited a week, maybe 2 and something else may have come along, possibly cheaper or maybe with better skills and a decent name. So rather than break part of the game by selling SP, why not add an option to change your name - At the time of purchase / transfer - for an additional cost. This has no effect on anyone or anything, except through the removal of a name and corp history the previous owner put together.
A character newly purchased from the bazaar getting a new name could be given a specific corp history - "Faction" medical corp - to indicate it is a character that has just been purchased. This sends a clear warning to corps that mat be recruiting, that this character has recently been sold (it has no real corp history) and therefore recruiting is "at your own risk" as it may be a known corp thief changing his identity to try and rip you off - Don't give access to the alliance wallet till you get to know the player. Or it may just be some guy who wanted a new char with a name he or she preferred, without someone else's corp history.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
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Dave Stark
7561
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:39:44 -
[2178] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote: erm, buying deadspace modules/ships already exists. just buy a plex, sell it, and buy what you want.
I meant golden ammo, ammo, for the love of Jita monument! I spoke with my girlfiend who played microtransactions mmo (I have no experience). Her conclusions: vets will be gone (most of them), new players will stay for a while but without being hooked (and it's hard to be hooked to EvE) will leave too. It's two way payment, subs/plex and paying for SP. SP is used not only for combat. There won't be any attachment to characters, you may rename them to: slot 1, slot 2 and slot 3. I think she's a bitter vet althought she not played EvE at all. "It's a bit too much science, I'll log D3 and chop some demons".
which mmo has she played?
is it one of those failed ones that was subscription based but sucked so much **** the only way to get new players was to become f2p and then fund itself by shoving microtransactions down the throat of anyone that would log in? |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4175
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:41:43 -
[2179] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:2. Don't you think it's bad to offer SP-trading, but only linked to AUR? Discriminating based on willingness and/or capability to fork out extra cash on top of a sub? Milking extra money for a feature that - maybe, if you're right - will already generate money by improving retention? Why not offer a SP-trading mechanic, but without the AUR part?
Chrome Veinss wrote:re: 2. you can buy aur with isk, and you can buy whatever aur buys with isk so i don't see how its "milking people for real life cash". I'm not going to be spending any extra money as long as I pay for a subscription, but I'd be interested in buying some sp for isk.
Maekchu wrote:Given that a PLEX can be converted to AUR, I actually don't find this too bad. If AUR was only limited as something that could be attained with IRL money, then I might have agreed on your point.
Mmmhhh... ok, I have to think this through then...
Kindly help me on one question: can you actually convert PLEX to AUR directly? As in, destroy a PLEX and get AUR in exchange (directly from CCP)?
Also, can AUR be traded among players in exchange for ISK?
Thanks in advance
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
145
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:45:43 -
[2180] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Mmmhhh... ok, I have to think this through then... Kindly help me on one question: can you actually convert PLEX to AUR directly? As in, destroy a PLEX and get AUR in exchange (directly from CCP)? Also, can AUR be traded among players in exchange for ISK? Thanks in advance Yes, you destroy one PLEX and gain 3500 AUR in exchange.
As far as I know, AUR cannot be traded directly with other players. Besides buying a new plex and selling it to someone else (or the AUR tokens). But that is just item trading, and not direct AUR transfer.
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Wolfe copying
Perkone Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:46:19 -
[2181] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:2. Don't you think it's bad to offer SP-trading, but only linked to AUR? Discriminating based on willingness and/or capability to fork out extra cash on top of a sub? Milking extra money for a feature that - maybe, if you're right - will already generate money by improving retention? Why not offer a SP-trading mechanic, but without the AUR part? Chrome Veinss wrote:re: 2. you can buy aur with isk, and you can buy whatever aur buys with isk so i don't see how its "milking people for real life cash". I'm not going to be spending any extra money as long as I pay for a subscription, but I'd be interested in buying some sp for isk. Maekchu wrote:Given that a PLEX can be converted to AUR, I actually don't find this too bad. If AUR was only limited as something that could be attained with IRL money, then I might have agreed on your point. Mmmhhh... ok, I have to think this through then... Kindly help me on one question: can you actually convert PLEX to AUR directly? As in, destroy a PLEX and get AUR in exchange (directly from CCP)? Also, can AUR be traded among players in exchange for ISK? Thanks in advance
Yes you can exchange a plex for AURUM for 3500AUR per plex. I don't think you can sell AUR directly for isk although I haven't looked very hard for it. |
Daaaain
Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:47:30 -
[2182] - Quote
No one is reading this you know.. |
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
661
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:49:50 -
[2183] - Quote
Chrome Veinss wrote:Something WAAAAAY more drastic that fundamentally changes how this game is played or its business model needs to be done to get the EVE population to healthy numbers. Right now most space is empty. Dead. If this very minor proposal causes such a hysteric reaction from people, I can easily imagine a situation where change averse players holding back the evolution of the game end up killing it
And why is that? People were happy playing this game for years (decades!) at a time when they couldn't buy SP. If SP was ever really that much of a problem, how would you explain 12 years so far? Again, most people are happy with increasing SP even further for new players, or doing lots to get them treading water faster so they can share this universe with us, but this way is, at best terribly circuitous and at worst blackmailing character progression.
I'll entertain that space is empty, but it's a little bit of a weak statement considering your alliance there. There's still content to be had. Some areas actually see more content than ever before. Pointing the finger at SP when there are far larger elephants in the room seems derpy. We now live in an age when there are strategic ratting fleets - that doesn't sound very engaging does it? There are so many culprits of why people are leaving, why not try and address these rather than just sell character progression to the highest bidder?
EvE takes time...Time to trust people, time to find the right corp, time to do everything. Having a steady incline of ships, costs, and the risks you can take is good while you begin to explore New Eden.
Chrome Veinss wrote:I dont want to see it go the way of slowly bleeding subscriptions as cool stuff arrives too little too late, which is what has been going on basically since I started playing. The only difference between paying for sp and paying for a subscription or plexing an account is the time factor and I dont see any benefit to maintaining the time barrier, eliminating it gets more people in space flying more ships faster. If the problem is creating a more dynamic sp market so that people constantly buy sp to make up for subscription money then simply add more sp sinks. Im not advocating for this, just trying to think of possibilities beyond having everything stay the same with ever increasing PLEX prices and decreasing player numbers
Going free to play is like a normal healthy game deciding to try hard drugs. It's gona feel REAL good for a little bit then...
Again. Fix the leaks first. Figure out why people are leaving, why veterans aren't getting new players into the game. Figure out why the universe has lost its groove and how to get it back. Getting into bigger more expensive ships faster is not going to make everyone happier. The people with the big and shiny ships are leaving just as anyone else, what would prevent a newer player from the same thing if he or she had said ships?
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
418
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:52:52 -
[2184] - Quote
Nafensoriel wrote:Just needed to point out a small correction to the discussion here.
SP sales and Character trading are not identical. When you sell a character you are buying time. This time might be fully utilized the way you want it to be or it might not.. The fact remains that to get a 200m SP char from the bazzar you have to have a char which was painstakingly trained to 200m.
With SP sales you have direct injection of something now rather than later.. In essence a removal of time.
TLDR: Bazzar = Buying someone elses time. SP Trading = Autisticly removing the need for time.
Regardless of your position on this subject the above is immutable. Removing training time will have a profound effect on eve online as it has never been done before. History will tell if its the right one. I personally only dislike the system because it will be abused for RMT but beyond that I see Rises point and I can see the clear desire for CCP to moniterize the game more.
You make a good point. I have thought a couple of times what it would be like if you could apply a full skill level immediately and then wait out a cooldown timer equal to the current training time ... but completely removing the time element for people willing to cough up the money is a drastic change.
Some argue that the character bazaar does just that. But as you say, there's a difference between training one character to x SP and selling the character as is on one hand as compared to maintaining a SP farm and selling SP packages. The latter system removes the necessity to follow a strict skill-plan that you had to decide on first on the seller side. This makes farming a no-brainer similar to PI if not worse. With PI you still have some planning and risk. The buyer doesn't have to deal with skills he didn't want, which is good. But as it gets easier to just buy SP from the market and immediately apply them, assuming no cooldown timer, that mechanic will become a must do.
This reminds me of rigs. Pre-release rigs seemed like those optional items you could use to tweak your ship a little. After release it very quickly became unviable to fit a ship without rigs.
It could be, that "the power of two" (referring to the promotion of playing EvE with an alt helping your main) became "the power of twenty". You would train 20 characters to 15m SP to get 20 x 10m transferrable SP to sell on the market or apply to your own characters.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
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Dave Stark
7561
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Posted - 2015.10.16 20:54:45 -
[2185] - Quote
Daaaain wrote:No one is reading this you know..
ccp are always reading. that's why i post. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
416
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 20:56:27 -
[2186] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:which mmo has she played?
is it one of those failed ones that was subscription based but sucked so much **** the only way to get new players was to become f2p and then fund itself by shoving microtransactions down the throat of anyone that would log in? Is it matter? They all gone by now propably. BTW I assume all microtransactions are f2p, because of microtransactions. It was one of the reason, major, that she stopped playing. She didn't want to pay, and she starting to feel the gap between those who did. EvE SP is not all about combat PvP there are other activities too.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Dave Stark
7561
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:00:12 -
[2187] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:which mmo has she played?
is it one of those failed ones that was subscription based but sucked so much **** the only way to get new players was to become f2p and then fund itself by shoving microtransactions down the throat of anyone that would log in? Is it matter? They all gone by now propably. BTW I assume all microtransactions are f2p, because of microtransactions. It was one of the reason, major, that she stopped playing. She didn't want to pay, and she starting to feel the gap between those who did. EvE SP is not all about combat PvP there are other activities too.
well yeah - because most of those subscribers lost their vets long before they went to subscription models... they lost vets because they sucked not because they had microtransactions. |
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
198
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:01:52 -
[2188] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:People have either genuinely forgotten just how bad the first year of play is, or they're deluded. I haven't. How is giving new players the expectation of making a significant down payment on what is to all appearances a boring, grindy game going to help retention? |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
416
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:10:42 -
[2189] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:well yeah - because most of those subscribers lost their vets long before they went to subscription models... they lost vets because they sucked not because they had microtransactions. They have vets, with bigger wallets. Rich vs poor. Let's say it's +1 year after the SP for aurum introduced. "Should I start EvE? Well, it depends how much money do you have?".
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1396
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:10:59 -
[2190] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Marsha Mallow wrote:People have either genuinely forgotten just how bad the first year of play is, or they're deluded. I haven't. How is giving new players the expectation of making a significant down payment on what is to all appearances a boring, grindy game going to help retention?
First this would be an additional *option* not a requirement.
What is a significant down payment? They haven't really given the costs yet. Eve is a fairly inexpensive hobby. Maybe for children it is not, but do we really need more children in eve?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Sgt Ocker
Military Bustards
727
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:12:12 -
[2191] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:I have gone from sitting on the fence to supporting this idea. My reason is that I found an old account with 3 50mil sp alts on it that I have not had subbed since 2011. I shall do my part to help newbros by cashing out that sp when the market has stabilised at a level I am happy with, my concern is that there might be a couple of hundred thousand alts all sitting in a similiar position to mine. Why not advertise those alts on the bazaar and give some newbro the opportunity to buy them. 3 with 50 mil SP, at least one of them has got to be worth more than pulling apart for profit.
And you are right, the sheer amount of unused characters could see an excess of SP packages available, to a limited pool of purchasers. This doesn't hurt CCP of course, once you make the SP package they have been paid for it but the player selling it could on the other hand be stuck with SP packages he or she can't sell because demand is far outstripped by availability. One or two of eves richest decide they want to screw with the SP market - Only the eve rich or those with high disposable incomes will be able to afford SP packages, just look at plex prices and how they are manipulated.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
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Titus Cole Dooley
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:12:41 -
[2192] - Quote
If this makes it to TQ im done. My time in EVE will have been wasted. |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
418
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:15:56 -
[2193] - Quote
Nafensoriel wrote:Maekchu wrote:Nafensoriel wrote:Just needed to point out a small correction to the discussion here.
SP sales and Character trading are not identical. When you sell a character you are buying time. This time might be fully utilized the way you want it to be or it might not.. The fact remains that to get a 200m SP char from the bazzar you have to have a char which was painstakingly trained to 200m.
With SP sales you have direct injection of something now rather than later.. In essence a removal of time.
TLDR: Bazzar = Buying someone elses time. SP Trading = Autisticly removing the need for time.
Regardless of your position on this subject the above is immutable. Removing training time will have a profound effect on eve online as it has never been done before. History will tell if its the right one. I personally only dislike the system because it will be abused for RMT but beyond that I see Rises point and I can see the clear desire for CCP to moniterize the game more.
But the 500k SP points are still trained normally on the character that wants to sell them. The SP does not magically appear out of nowhere. They have already been trained, just like on the characters sold on the bazzar. This is a common misconception.. To explain when a character is trained currently.. every minute of time used is effectively "read only". When you turn time into a "commodity" and allow direct extraction and transition of this new "commodity" you are effectively ticking the switch that says "read only" and allowing someone to adjust time at will within very wide constraints. IE current system: I train a character for 3 years. Sell it. The buyer gets 3 years worth of time that cannot be altered except to add to it. The buyer is in effect buying my time and only my time. The quality of my product is determined by what I used that time for. The new system: I train a character and extract blocks of time. I sell it. Time has been removed from the equation at this point. If I sell 30m SP it will act like trained SP. IE it will act as if you yourself spent the hours to train a character but without actually spending the time. In short it removes the immutability of time=SP and instead converts the system into SP exclusively. The entire EVE wide SP pool is now no longer locked into specific characters that must be bought and traded to be useful but instead you have a system where we can redistribute the entire pool as we see fit. Again.. this is an individual choice as to if this is good or bad. Both sides of the argument have pros and cons. I will state again that this type of system has never existed before in eve online. SP have, until now, been considered immutably locked once trained. The gravity of this change is so massive its hard to comprehend the long term possible interactions with the community.
... and than imagine any players quitting EvE ...
Instead of the "can I haz your stuff", you'll get "can I haz some SP". Now I get why they made 5m SP the minimum for extracting SP. Most players quit before they are 5 months old.
Again, I'm not against the idea but it needs to thorough thinking through. Wouldn't want EvE to have a SWG NGE moment. This reeks like it could have exactly that potential.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
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Chrome Veinss
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:17:49 -
[2194] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Chrome Veinss wrote:Something WAAAAAY more drastic that fundamentally changes how this game is played or its business model needs to be done to get the EVE population to healthy numbers. Right now most space is empty. Dead. If this very minor proposal causes such a hysteric reaction from people, I can easily imagine a situation where change averse players holding back the evolution of the game end up killing it And why is that? People were happy playing this game for years (decades!) at a time when they couldn't buy SP. If SP was ever really that much of a problem, how would you explain 12 years so far? Again, most people are happy with increasing SP even further for new players, or doing lots to get them treading water faster so they can share this universe with us, but this way is, at best terribly circuitous and at worst blackmailing character progression. I'll entertain that space is empty, but it's a little bit of a weak statement considering your alliance there. There's still content to be had. Some areas actually see more content than ever before. Pointing the finger at SP when there are far larger elephants in the room seems derpy. We now live in an age when there are strategic ratting fleets - that doesn't sound very engaging does it? There are so many culprits of why people are leaving, why not try and address these rather than just sell character progression to the highest bidder? EvE takes time...Time to trust people, time to find the right corp, time to do everything. Having a steady incline of ships, costs, and the risks you can take is good while you begin to explore New Eden. Chrome Veinss wrote:I dont want to see it go the way of slowly bleeding subscriptions as cool stuff arrives too little too late, which is what has been going on basically since I started playing. The only difference between paying for sp and paying for a subscription or plexing an account is the time factor and I dont see any benefit to maintaining the time barrier, eliminating it gets more people in space flying more ships faster. If the problem is creating a more dynamic sp market so that people constantly buy sp to make up for subscription money then simply add more sp sinks. Im not advocating for this, just trying to think of possibilities beyond having everything stay the same with ever increasing PLEX prices and decreasing player numbers Going free to play is like a normal healthy game deciding to try hard drugs. It's gona feel REAL good for a little bit then... Again. Fix the leaks first. Figure out why people are leaving, why veterans aren't getting new players into the game. Figure out why the universe has lost its groove and how to get it back. Getting into bigger more expensive ships faster is not going to make everyone happier. The people with the big and shiny ships are leaving just as anyone else, what would prevent a newer player from the same thing if he or she had said ships?
There are real world reasons why people are leaving, I think. Take the russian players for example, who have seen substantial increases in the cost of a subscription due to the exchange rate of the ruble. Most european economies are struggling. The exchange rate between Brazil's real and USD is insane right now. So the real life subscription price keeps increasing for many players, while the ingame PLEX price also keeps increasing without equivalent buffs to isk faucets. Add on top of this the (very much needed) bans on isboxer's multi broadcasting, the fact that many people have stopped subbing capital alts because capitals arent as relevant in today's meta and new games (many FTP) being released all the time and the result is a huge drop in subscribed accounts.
Short of merging with Serenity, there is no way to get the boost of new players we need that doesn't involves making EVE cheaper or more accessible in some way. If a lot of people start leaving the game, it will create a snowball effect where more and more people leave as space gets emptier and emptier and there is less content. But if a lot of people start joining the game, it will also have a snowball effect where more people start coming because space gets peopulated and there is more and more content. |
Dave Stark
7562
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:18:07 -
[2195] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:well yeah - because most of those subscribers lost their vets long before they went to subscription models... they lost vets because they sucked not because they had microtransactions. They have vets, with bigger wallets. Rich vs poor. Let's say it's +1 year after the SP for aurum introduced. "Should I start EvE? Well, it depends how much money do you have?".
and that's different to now how?
if you want to skip the newbie skill grind and go straight to flying t2 cruisers - how much cash do you have? cos if you want to skip the newbie skill grind you already can. |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
18
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:20:08 -
[2196] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Laodell wrote:Just being able to abstract the purchase of the SP through whatever euphemism is still paying to win. Again, we already have the Character Bazaar. That line has already been crossed.
What you're asking for is a world without consequences. A world without consequences does not create an environment of cooperation to build, only an environment where griefers, thieves and bandits can engage in their standard of play. The disrupting of others enjoyment of the game.
More people may play for a short time to bully others with impunity. But even that will pale when all the builders have left.
As for the character bazaar that line has been discussed. It is no where near buying SP. You're buying a character. You have to perform the research and make a wise decision.
Everyone in this thread has acknowledged CCPs intent by discussing the purchase of SP. Not the character bazaar or much else that goes with it. At best being able to reclaim the SP from existing toons creates an environment in which you can exist without being held accountable for past poor decisions.
Being able to look at a persons reputation is paramount in determining the safety of a new corp-mate. Remove that and you remove a lot of the safety in building within the game. Then there's CODE destroying game play for the new players and driving them off too.
Bugger to all that.
On the bright side, Eve was 1 of 3 games keeping me on a Windows desktop. That's one less thing keeping windows 10 a risk. If I can find a Linux replacement I will leave windows and Eve entirely.
We shall see how this plays out.
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Wendrika Hydreiga
523
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:21:47 -
[2197] - Quote
Titus Cole Dooley wrote:If this makes it to TQ im done. My time in EVE will have been wasted.
What about the cool things you saw? The people you met? The friends you made? The things you experienced? The wanderlust of exploring space!
I know people jokingly call this game Skill Queues Online, but that's ridiculous! Now that the end of the skill queue tirany is at an end, we can't just throw our arms and quit! |
Dave Stark
7562
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:24:27 -
[2198] - Quote
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:Titus Cole Dooley wrote:If this makes it to TQ im done. My time in EVE will have been wasted. What about the cool things you saw? The people you met? The friends you made? The things you experienced? The wanderlust of exploring space! I know people jokingly call this game Skill Queues Online, but that's ridiculous! Now that the end of the skill queue tirany is at an end, we can't just throw our arms and quit!
if all he did was load skills on a skill queue he didn't spend any time in eve anyway.
it's quite the paradox. he either did spend time in eve - which won't have been wasted because he was doing things. or, he didn't do anything in eve which means he didn't spend any time which could be considered wasted. |
Robart Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:28:46 -
[2199] - Quote
I would like to voice my opposition in the strongest terms possible. However, language that foul would fall afoul of the forum rules. So, please for the love of bob no.
It won't appeal to the sort of players who will be around long term, because they may just buy a pile of SP, make a terrible toon, and either quit or sell the toon when they've had their fill of endgame stuff at week one. That's not a good thing for a health game.
It adds a substantial perceived front-load of payment to the game, because you figure if you can't fly anything you might as well buy the skills, potentially more than a hundred dollars for anything worth while. That won't look good. It's part of what turns me off of freemium games so hard.
It makes a shortcut available that devalues the work and commitment of your existing players. everyone in the game has either trained their toon or dealt with buying one. Yes, it might have been nice if you did this back when you originally designed the game. But now, after a decade, the time for a radical change and shortcut is well past to me.
It puts further strain on plex prices, which have only ever gone up. I'd rather not see them continue to.
It's either too granular, or not granular enough. It's sitting in the middle where many skills will take multiple packets to perfect, but is still overkill for many of the basic skills, and ends up with a plex equivalent cost of at least 300M just for the skill points involved. I don't know many newbies who have that much to spare without having spent real money. In which case, it becomes pay to win even more than it already is.
It destroys toon age as a skill metric. It's something people do use, even if it can be wildly inaccurate, because it's better than nothing.
In my opinion, a better idea would have been to allow an extra fee to be paid (a nominal one in ISK, not aurum or plex, although those work too), to rename the character while you buy or sell it, and potentially restrict it if the seller doesn't want to allow it, or by the type of sale being made.
CCP, I understand you have to make money. A sub fee bump would be unpopular, so aesthetic micro-transactions are one of the few areas you have to innovate in without affecting the rest of the game. But please, keep the micro-transactions out of the game proper. I don't want to have to buy Gold Faction Ammo to win a fight or contest, nor do I want to have a place where some guy can simply outspend me to progress faster. |
Pic'n dor
Wild Sentinels Honorable Third Party
42
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:30:21 -
[2200] - Quote
Plz CCP, go down on your weird SP trading monster.
For one time, do something that is along with the business :
Go For NPE and add something that is known to work during the first 6months or the first year of subscription :
LOGIN REWARDS with free SP (like 10 to 100k per day) / T1 fregs pack, free skill books, T1 drone packs, trade goods to be sell etc...
That will greatly help newbros to discover items and stuff in eve.
And pls, remove skillbooks from the game that you are giving to all toons with the 350k SP buff (which is great but maybe not enough !!) Give those skills to every toon and just remove the books from NPC market !! make the collectors or whatever !
COUCOU TOUCHE TOUCHE
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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
418
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:31:29 -
[2201] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Nafensoriel wrote: The new system: I train a character and extract blocks of time. I sell it. Time has been removed from the equation at this point. If I sell 30m SP it will act like trained SP. IE it will act as if you yourself spent the hours to train a character but without actually spending the time.
The nominal value of the SP is still trained by the seller. But I do agree, that with the SP being unallocated, that means you can transfer SP to other skills then originally trained. But time is not lost, since time is still used on training on the seller. In your above example, it is true that 30m SP will just be injected on your character. But these 30M SP have been trained on another character and effectively transferred to your character, since they are lost on the other character. If they remained on the seller, then yes, you would be right in the fact that time has been lost.
Think of it like a PI operation.
I set up 3 alts and train them to 15m SP. 5m SP is the minimum before I can extract SP. So I extract 3x 10m SP and sell 30m SP in half the time it would have taken me to train one character to 30m SP. I also didn't have to follow a specific skillplan to create a Caldari or Gallente or Amarr or Minmatar pilot with specific pvp or industry or scanning skills. It's easier than Farmville now.
After the first batch of 30m SP, I repeat the whole operation over again and again.
Sunk cost = roughly 3x4 PLEX to get my 3 alts to 5m SP.
After that it's pure PLEX to SP conversion. Each PLEX is roughly 1m SP from now on.
Do you see a difference now ?
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
192
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:36:24 -
[2202] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Marsha Mallow wrote:People have either genuinely forgotten just how bad the first year of play is, or they're deluded. I haven't. How is giving new players the expectation of making a significant down payment on what is to all appearances a boring, grindy game going to help retention? The first year of play was probably the best. I did give up after a week on the first attempt, but then I did a bit of research first and came back later and it was great fun.
Now after being in the game for quite a few years the game is still great and has a lot of charm, but it can never have the same magic and awe inspiring epic feel that it had in that first year. I can still see that same feeling though in the new players I speak to as they begin their journey.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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J0rj Lmoz
EVE University Ivy League
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:38:06 -
[2203] - Quote
This will not make new players stay, but will make many players leave.
Skills is the only thing that cant be bought and should stay like that. Please don't do this. -1 player if this goes forward . |
atif09
THE THIRTEEN SAMURAI The Old Guard.
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:40:04 -
[2204] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:Maekchu wrote:Nafensoriel wrote: The new system: I train a character and extract blocks of time. I sell it. Time has been removed from the equation at this point. If I sell 30m SP it will act like trained SP. IE it will act as if you yourself spent the hours to train a character but without actually spending the time.
The nominal value of the SP is still trained by the seller. But I do agree, that with the SP being unallocated, that means you can transfer SP to other skills then originally trained. But time is not lost, since time is still used on training on the seller. In your above example, it is true that 30m SP will just be injected on your character. But these 30M SP have been trained on another character and effectively transferred to your character, since they are lost on the other character. If they remained on the seller, then yes, you would be right in the fact that time has been lost. Think of it like a PI operation. I set up 3 alts and train them to 15m SP. 5m SP is the minimum before I can extract SP. So I extract 3x 10m SP and sell 30m SP in half the time it would have taken me to train one character to 30m SP. I also didn't have to follow a specific skillplan to create a Caldari or Gallente or Amarr or Minmatar pilot with specific pvp or industry or scanning skills. It's easier than Farmville now. After the first batch of 30m SP, I repeat the whole operation over again and again. Sunk cost = roughly 3x4 PLEX to get my 3 alts to 5m SP. After that it's pure PLEX to SP conversion. Each PLEX is roughly 1m SP from now on. Do you see a difference now ?
with diminishing returns the sp will be for every 500k sp removed only 50k will be gained on accounts with more than 80m sp
Characters consuming a Transneural Skill Packet will receive the following amounts of unallocated skillpoints, based on the total skillpoints trained before consumption: GÇó 0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added GÇó 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added GÇó 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added GÇó > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added
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BlackWilk
Black Hat Frigates Violent Declaration
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:40:59 -
[2205] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:beakerax wrote:Marsha Mallow wrote:People have either genuinely forgotten just how bad the first year of play is, or they're deluded. I haven't. How is giving new players the expectation of making a significant down payment on what is to all appearances a boring, grindy game going to help retention? The first year of play was probably the best. I did give up after a week on the first attempt, but then I did a bit of research first and came back later and it was great fun. Now after being in the game for quite a few years the game is still great and has a lot of charm, but it can never have the same magic and awe inspiring epic feel that it had in that first year. I can still see that same feeling though in the new players I speak to as they begin their journey.
agreed! the firsts of everything were just magical <3. and working to earn it was worth the struggle. |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
18
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:42:20 -
[2206] - Quote
atif09 wrote:Jill Xelitras wrote:Maekchu wrote:Nafensoriel wrote: The new system: I train a character and extract blocks of time. I sell it. Time has been removed from the equation at this point. If I sell 30m SP it will act like trained SP. IE it will act as if you yourself spent the hours to train a character but without actually spending the time.
The nominal value of the SP is still trained by the seller. But I do agree, that with the SP being unallocated, that means you can transfer SP to other skills then originally trained. But time is not lost, since time is still used on training on the seller. In your above example, it is true that 30m SP will just be injected on your character. But these 30M SP have been trained on another character and effectively transferred to your character, since they are lost on the other character. If they remained on the seller, then yes, you would be right in the fact that time has been lost. Think of it like a PI operation. I set up 3 alts and train them to 15m SP. 5m SP is the minimum before I can extract SP. So I extract 3x 10m SP and sell 30m SP in half the time it would have taken me to train one character to 30m SP. I also didn't have to follow a specific skillplan to create a Caldari or Gallente or Amarr or Minmatar pilot with specific pvp or industry or scanning skills. It's easier than Farmville now. After the first batch of 30m SP, I repeat the whole operation over again and again. Sunk cost = roughly 3x4 PLEX to get my 3 alts to 5m SP. After that it's pure PLEX to SP conversion. Each PLEX is roughly 1m SP from now on. Do you see a difference now ? with diminishing returns the sp will be for every 500k sp removed only 50k will be gained on accounts with more than 80m sp Characters consuming a Transneural Skill Packet will receive the following amounts of unallocated skillpoints, based on the total skillpoints trained before consumption: GÇó 0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added GÇó 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added GÇó 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added GÇó > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added
So a hearty BUGGER OFF to everyone that's played for a significant amount of time. Yea thanks for that.
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Blue Harrier
216
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:43:30 -
[2207] - Quote
So now we will have a commodity that is transferrable by Jump-clone, there can be many like me who have a jump-clone languishing in 0.0 unused because for various reasons you got out and left it there.
Now I have a commodity I can jump anywhere in Eve I have a clone. I could jump to 0.0 package up a skillset and sell it on the market (for a good profit one would hope) then put out a message to anyone local to order a specific set of skills. Jump back to High and into a fully specked clone, collect extra points from a set of farmer clones, when ready jump back and sell the package of skills to the client.
Profit Hmm, not my idea of how the game should progress, I vote no to this change.
"You wait - time passes, Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold." from The Hobbit on ZX Spectrum 1982.
|
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
158
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:43:35 -
[2208] - Quote
J0rj Lmoz wrote:This will not make new players stay, but will make many players leave.
Skills is the only thing that cant be bought and should stay like that. Please don't do this. -1 player if this goes forward .
It might help newer players. It doesn't need to turn them into 50 million SP supercap pilots to help them out.
Quantify many players before you tell us how many will leave. And can they wait until this goes into effect so we can ask for your SP?
And yes, skills can be bought. Entire characters chock full of skills and skill points can be bought. All the things can be bought. |
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
201
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:44:37 -
[2209] - Quote
Cearain wrote:First this would be an additional *option* not a requirement. Paying for your account with PLEX instead of $ is an option, not a requirement, but I still find myself trying to disabuse new players of the notion that they ought to be grinding isk to "play for free".
Quote:What is a significant down payment? They haven't really given the costs yet. They don't need to. Whether or not you agree that game time and sp are equivalent (I don't), you should be able to work out an approximate exchange rate. |
Wizzard117
Wizzard117 Corporation
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:45:56 -
[2210] - Quote
Does Amarr system have a monument like in Jita? ^^ |
|
Dave Stark
7564
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:46:38 -
[2211] - Quote
Blue Harrier wrote:So now we will have a commodity that is transferrable by Jump-clone, there can be many like me who have a jump-clone languishing in 0.0 unused because for various reasons you got out and left it there.
Now I have a commodity I can jump anywhere in Eve I have a clone. I could jump to 0.0 package up a skillset and sell it on the market (for a good profit one would hope) then put out a message to anyone local to order a specific set of skills. Jump back to High and into a fully specked clone, collect extra points from a set of farmer clones, when ready jump back and sell the package of skills to the client.
Profit Hmm, not my idea of how the game should progress, I vote no to this change.
what?
this has nothing to do with jump clones. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
145
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:47:56 -
[2212] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote: Think of it like a PI operation.
I set up 3 alts and train them to 15m SP. 5m SP is the minimum before I can extract SP. So I extract 3x 10m SP and sell 30m SP in half the time it would have taken me to train one character to 30m SP. I also didn't have to follow a specific skillplan to create a Caldari or Gallente or Amarr or Minmatar pilot with specific pvp or industry or scanning skills. It's easier than Farmville now.
After the first batch of 30m SP, I repeat the whole operation over again and again.
Sunk cost = roughly 3x4 PLEX to get my 3 alts to 5m SP.
After that it's pure PLEX to SP conversion. Each PLEX is roughly 1m SP from now on.
Do you see a difference now ?
Doesn't change the fact, that the skills are still trained. The skills does not pop up from thin air, which was what the guy initially argued.
Whether this mechanic can be abused, is something completely different. Your example, shows a possible abuse and does not really contribute to the original discussion (which was regarding the time spent on training the skills).
At this point in time, it is really not possible to tell, if it will be profitable to do the above scenario, since we don't have all the information needed to make such a judgement. But it sure is a concern and something CCP hopefully will take into account. This is the reason for this thread. So people can discuss this change in a rational manner, and not throw their arms in the air screaming "Ragnarok!" and "The end times are near!". The latter provides nothing constructive to the table. |
Karin Yang
Eye Of Insight SpaceMonkey's Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:50:59 -
[2213] - Quote
I think he is assuming there will be no cost to extract skill point, which is incorrect, so that he can transport this commodity for free.
Dave Stark wrote:Blue Harrier wrote:So now we will have a commodity that is transferrable by Jump-clone, there can be many like me who have a jump-clone languishing in 0.0 unused because for various reasons you got out and left it there.
Now I have a commodity I can jump anywhere in Eve I have a clone. I could jump to 0.0 package up a skillset and sell it on the market (for a good profit one would hope) then put out a message to anyone local to order a specific set of skills. Jump back to High and into a fully specked clone, collect extra points from a set of farmer clones, when ready jump back and sell the package of skills to the client.
Profit Hmm, not my idea of how the game should progress, I vote no to this change.
what? this has nothing to do with jump clones. |
Titus Cole Dooley
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:52:29 -
[2214] - Quote
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:Titus Cole Dooley wrote:If this makes it to TQ im done. My time in EVE will have been wasted. What about the cool things you saw? The people you met? The friends you made? The things you experienced? The wanderlust of exploring space! I know people jokingly call this game Skill Queues Online, but that's ridiculous! Now that the end of the skill queue tirany is at an end, we can't just throw our arms and quit! My EVE friends and I will all go play Farm Sim 2015 if this makes it to TQ.
I will not support CCP in this "new player experience" trash that is making the game too easy. At this rate new players will start out with 40 mil SP and 10 bil isk. CCP is forgetting what got them here. Some people like hard games, it sets us apart from other gamers. |
Seraph Essael
eXceed Inc.
1145
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:54:22 -
[2215] - Quote
If this happens...good luck with your game...
And by your game I mean League of Legends, because Riot Games is where the Devs will go once Eve collapses in on itself and CCP go under...
Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
|
Dave Stark
7564
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:55:13 -
[2216] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Jill Xelitras wrote: Think of it like a PI operation.
I set up 3 alts and train them to 15m SP. 5m SP is the minimum before I can extract SP. So I extract 3x 10m SP and sell 30m SP in half the time it would have taken me to train one character to 30m SP. I also didn't have to follow a specific skillplan to create a Caldari or Gallente or Amarr or Minmatar pilot with specific pvp or industry or scanning skills. It's easier than Farmville now.
After the first batch of 30m SP, I repeat the whole operation over again and again.
Sunk cost = roughly 3x4 PLEX to get my 3 alts to 5m SP.
After that it's pure PLEX to SP conversion. Each PLEX is roughly 1m SP from now on.
Do you see a difference now ?
Doesn't change the fact, that the skills are still trained. The skills does not pop up from thin air, which was what the guy initially argued. Whether this mechanic can be abused, is something completely different. Your example, shows a possible abuse and does not really contribute to the original discussion (which was regarding the time spent on training the skills). At this point in time, it is really not possible to tell, if it will be profitable to do the above scenario, since we don't have all the information needed to make such a judgement. But it sure is a concern and something CCP hopefully will take into account. This is the reason for this thread. So people can discuss this change in a rational manner, and not throw their arms in the air screaming "Ragnarok!" and "The end times are near!". The latter provides nothing constructive to the table.
here's what we know;
it takes 7.7 days to train 500,000 to extract for a packet with an optimal remap and +5s. this means you can get 4 packets per 30 day period. 30 days gametime is 1.2bn isk.
one packet will be 300m isk, minimum. assuming people don't sell these at a loss.
now consider the following; you only get 10% of that SP back if you're above 80m SP.
that means you need to buy ~40 packets to buy a month's worth of SP. that's 12bn isk, minimum.
now consider that you've got to add the price of neural extractors to that. |
BlackWilk
Black Hat Frigates Violent Declaration
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:55:49 -
[2217] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: Doesn't change the fact, that the skills are still trained. The skills does not pop up from thin air, which was what the guy initially argued.
Whether this mechanic can be abused, is something completely different. Your example, shows a possible abuse and does not really contribute to the original discussion (which was regarding the time spent on training the skills).
At this point in time, it is really not possible to tell, if it will be profitable to do the above scenario, since we don't have all the information needed to make such a judgement. But it sure is a concern and something CCP hopefully will take into account. This is the reason for this thread. So people can discuss this change in a rational manner, and not throw their arms in the air screaming "Ragnarok!" and "The end times are near!". The latter provides nothing constructive to the table.
the argument wasnt that the sp appears out of thin air. the argument is that the character you buy on the bazaar was a carefully planned product. the value of a character is how well it is spec'd. if you dont spec your character well you dont get much isk for it. it creates a managed supply of different types of products/characters. a person is playing for the time and the planning. it also retains the kinda measurement of how old a toon is and what it may or may not be capable of.
sure you could just go buy a maxed shield toon. but doesnt mean he will have gun skills. that toon sacrificed gun skill training to have missiles. buying unallocated sp removes the decision 'should i do armor or shield?' and such. i concur that the ability to buy and sell unallocated skill points would cause more harm than good to what the vision of eve is normally seen as. |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:57:13 -
[2218] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Blue Harrier wrote:So now we will have a commodity that is transferrable by Jump-clone, there can be many like me who have a jump-clone languishing in 0.0 unused because for various reasons you got out and left it there.
Now I have a commodity I can jump anywhere in Eve I have a clone. I could jump to 0.0 package up a skillset and sell it on the market (for a good profit one would hope) then put out a message to anyone local to order a specific set of skills. Jump back to High and into a fully specked clone, collect extra points from a set of farmer clones, when ready jump back and sell the package of skills to the client.
Profit Hmm, not my idea of how the game should progress, I vote no to this change.
what? this has nothing to do with jump clones.
Whether or not you think it should have anything to do with Jump Clones is irrelevant. The 'sandbox' allows players to 'game the system' in however manner they think it may profit them. Even if that means using things like jump clones to move to various markets instead of flying there in a Stealth Bomber.
POS Bowling was a beautiful example of this. Not it intended purpose but it worked.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3531
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:58:07 -
[2219] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Cearain wrote:First this would be an additional *option* not a requirement. Paying for your account with PLEX instead of $ is an option, not a requirement, but I still find myself trying to disabuse new players of the notion that they ought to be grinding isk to "play for free".
Have you tried using the concept of opportunity cost? EVE players often get that point. Work up an analogy with mining your minerals are not in effect free. Spending X number of your leisure time to avoid a $15 expense does not mean you are playing for free. Same thing.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
132
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:58:15 -
[2220] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:And why is that? People were happy playing this game for years (decades!) at a time when they couldn't buy SP. Do you need somebody to drag up the first posts in 2003 of people complaining about the SP system?
"If SP was ever really that much of a problem, how would you explain 12 years so far?" - I could replace "SP" with "Theme-Park" in that sentence, if you want to see some real salt.
"Again, most people are happy with increasing SP even further for new players" - Depends on which parts of the EVE forums you frequent, I suppose.
"but this way is, at best terribly circuitous and at worst blackmailing character progression." - I'm partially agreed here: Paying for progress isn't a great end-state. But are you willing to push solving the issue for good and just remove SP entirely?
"Pointing the finger at SP when there are far larger elephants in the room seems derpy." - Are there bigger elephants in the room? Can I bug CCP Quant for that data?
"EvE takes time...Time to trust people, time to find the right corp, time to do everything. Having a steady incline of ships, costs, and the risks you can take is good while you begin to explore New Eden." - Why should this incline be determined by the SP you're being drip-fed, instead of the ISK you've been generating through learning how to play?
"Again. Fix the leaks first. Figure out why people are leaving, why veterans aren't getting new players into the game." - Are you willing to break NDA to show the figures that SP climbs aren't why people are leaving and Vets have such a hard time getting their friends to play?
"Getting into bigger more expensive ships faster is not going to make everyone happier." - So nobody should be happy unless we know the single solution to making everyone happy?
"The people with the big and shiny ships are leaving just as anyone else, what would prevent a newer player from the same thing if he or she had said ships?" - What makes keeping people around for a few months while they work towards a goal, and then leaving when they realize the goal is boring (i.e. "Leveling a Raven") better than letting them see what the gameplay is like to begin with and leave or stay based on how fun the game is?
Edit: Putting in links to original posts because this threadnaught is still moving at 2 pages a minute. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6104544#post6104544 |
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Karin Yang
Eye Of Insight SpaceMonkey's Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:58:56 -
[2221] - Quote
But this does not work. Because you cannot activate SP package and extract SP without a fee
Laodell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Blue Harrier wrote:So now we will have a commodity that is transferrable by Jump-clone, there can be many like me who have a jump-clone languishing in 0.0 unused because for various reasons you got out and left it there.
Now I have a commodity I can jump anywhere in Eve I have a clone. I could jump to 0.0 package up a skillset and sell it on the market (for a good profit one would hope) then put out a message to anyone local to order a specific set of skills. Jump back to High and into a fully specked clone, collect extra points from a set of farmer clones, when ready jump back and sell the package of skills to the client.
Profit Hmm, not my idea of how the game should progress, I vote no to this change.
what? this has nothing to do with jump clones. Whether or not you think it should have anything to do with Jump Clones is irrelevant. The 'sandbox' allows players to 'game the system' in however manner they think it may profit them. Even if that means using things like jump clones to move to various markets instead of flying there in a Stealth Bomber. POS Bowling was a beautiful example of this. Not it intended purpose but it worked.
|
Dave Stark
7564
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:00:13 -
[2222] - Quote
Laodell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Blue Harrier wrote:So now we will have a commodity that is transferrable by Jump-clone, there can be many like me who have a jump-clone languishing in 0.0 unused because for various reasons you got out and left it there.
Now I have a commodity I can jump anywhere in Eve I have a clone. I could jump to 0.0 package up a skillset and sell it on the market (for a good profit one would hope) then put out a message to anyone local to order a specific set of skills. Jump back to High and into a fully specked clone, collect extra points from a set of farmer clones, when ready jump back and sell the package of skills to the client.
Profit Hmm, not my idea of how the game should progress, I vote no to this change.
what? this has nothing to do with jump clones. Whether or not you think it should have anything to do with Jump Clones is irrelevant. The 'sandbox' allows players to 'game the system' in however manner they think it may profit them. Even if that means using things like jump clones to move to various markets instead of flying there in a Stealth Bomber. POS Bowling was a beautiful example of this. Not it intended purpose but it worked.
it's not what i think.
this system quite literally has nothing to do with jump clones dude. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3531
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:02:41 -
[2223] - Quote
Laodell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Blue Harrier wrote:So now we will have a commodity that is transferrable by Jump-clone, there can be many like me who have a jump-clone languishing in 0.0 unused because for various reasons you got out and left it there.
Now I have a commodity I can jump anywhere in Eve I have a clone. I could jump to 0.0 package up a skillset and sell it on the market (for a good profit one would hope) then put out a message to anyone local to order a specific set of skills. Jump back to High and into a fully specked clone, collect extra points from a set of farmer clones, when ready jump back and sell the package of skills to the client.
Profit Hmm, not my idea of how the game should progress, I vote no to this change.
what? this has nothing to do with jump clones. Whether or not you think it should have anything to do with Jump Clones is irrelevant. The 'sandbox' allows players to 'game the system' in however manner they think it may profit them. Even if that means using things like jump clones to move to various markets instead of flying there in a Stealth Bomber. POS Bowling was a beautiful example of this. Not it intended purpose but it worked.
Yeah, you can't take anything with you when you jump clone though. So, handy for moving if you have a supply of things to sell at the destination, but if you don't....so what.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Mashie Saldana
Ghosts'n Stuff Drama Sutra
1631
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:04:14 -
[2224] - Quote
As a 208mill SP toon, I disapprove this. Something should be done yes but not this way.
How to win EVE
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
417
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:05:47 -
[2225] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:and that's different to now how?
if you want to skip the newbie skill grind and go straight to flying t2 cruisers - how much cash do you have? cos if you want to skip the newbie skill grind you already can. If I may pay to fly T2 cruiser I don't want to pay for sub. That's the difference. Microtransactions games are free, I can play them for free but propably I never get to the point where people with money are. It's like someone write here about rigs. They supposed to be optional but they are not. Same will be with SP. Doctrines, new skills (or high level skills, like cruise missiles for T2) etc. It's new income for CCP, which is good. It's bad because it a favors players with bigger wallets.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1396
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:05:57 -
[2226] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Cearain wrote:First this would be an additional *option* not a requirement. Paying for your account with PLEX instead of $ is an option, not a requirement, but I still find myself trying to disabuse new players of the notion that they ought to be grinding isk to "play for free".
Do you want to remove the *option* to play for free so you won't have to tell new player not to try that? I'm not sure of your point.
beakerax wrote:Cearain wrote: What is a significant down payment? They haven't really given the costs yet.
They don't need to. Whether or not you agree that game time and sp are equivalent (I don't), you should be able to work out an approximate exchange rate.
I am not sure how this will work really. It would have to be somewhat less than the cost of training 2 characters at once I would think because you are getting less sp than a month training. Plus they are diminishing what you get.
In the end I am not sure what the big deal is. Given the high cost of everything in the aurum store I doubt many people will use this. But if CCP wants to make some extra money it seems reasonable.
I do however think it is obnoxious to give loyal players who presumably have more skillpoints a worse deal then the newer crowd. Are they *trying* to get vets to unsub?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Dave Stark
7565
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:08:00 -
[2227] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:and that's different to now how?
if you want to skip the newbie skill grind and go straight to flying t2 cruisers - how much cash do you have? cos if you want to skip the newbie skill grind you already can. If I may pay to fly T2 cruiser I don't want to pay for sub. That's the difference. Microtransactions games are free, I can play them for free but propably I never get to the point where people with money are. It's like someone write here about rigs. They supposed to be optional but they are not. Same will be with SP. Doctrines, new skills (or high level skills, like cruise missiles for T2) etc. It's new income for CCP, which is good. It's bad because it a favors players with bigger wallets.
you mean like the current system where people with bigger wallets can just buy a new character that can fly doctrine ships if theirs can't? |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:10:12 -
[2228] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Laodell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Blue Harrier wrote:So now we will have a commodity that is transferrable by Jump-clone, there can be many like me who have a jump-clone languishing in 0.0 unused because for various reasons you got out and left it there.
Now I have a commodity I can jump anywhere in Eve I have a clone. I could jump to 0.0 package up a skillset and sell it on the market (for a good profit one would hope) then put out a message to anyone local to order a specific set of skills. Jump back to High and into a fully specked clone, collect extra points from a set of farmer clones, when ready jump back and sell the package of skills to the client.
Profit Hmm, not my idea of how the game should progress, I vote no to this change.
what? this has nothing to do with jump clones. Whether or not you think it should have anything to do with Jump Clones is irrelevant. The 'sandbox' allows players to 'game the system' in however manner they think it may profit them. Even if that means using things like jump clones to move to various markets instead of flying there in a Stealth Bomber. POS Bowling was a beautiful example of this. Not it intended purpose but it worked. it's not what i think. this system quite literally has nothing to do with jump clones dude.
*Shrug*
The idea alone is enough to kill Eve for me. What's the point ? this proposed change along with Windows 1984 ( Windows 10 ) being released I might as well explore Eve equivalents for Linux.
Please CCP say you're not going to do this. Hell kill the Bazaar completely while you're at it. Please keep the sandbox a level playing field. And roll back Incarna too while you're at it. I still haven't spent my Aurum in protest.
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9254
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:12:49 -
[2229] - Quote
I can't be arsed to look through a bunch of posting history, but if one of the regular no-lifers wanted to look back and see how many of these righteously indignant high SP whiners are actually purchased on the bazaar, it might show some interesting results.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
201
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:14:09 -
[2230] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Do you want to remove the *option* to play for free so you won't have to tell new player not to try that? I'm not sure of your point. My point is that these ~options~ can and will make new players form unrealistic goals which only end up cutting into their enjoyment of the game.
Quote:I am not sure how this will work really. It would have to be somewhat less than the cost of training 2 characters at once I would think because you are getting less sp than a month training. Plus they are diminishing what you get. In this system someone is still using gametime to train the sp being sold on the market. Even if the skill extractor was free, a month's worth of training can't cost any less than a month's worth of gametime. |
|
Vec Lennelluc
Ixian Machines TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:17:10 -
[2231] - Quote
Even as a new player, I'd have to say this idea is total BS, and is a big turn-off to the veteran players. I've seen companies do this before, and even today, Overkill software did something similar to it's popular Payday 2 franchise. Companies that do things like these stop getting money, quickly, at least from the many veterans they have. CCP, do not do this, it's a terrible idea. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3531
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:22:40 -
[2232] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
here's what we know;
it takes 7.7 days to train 500,000 to extract for a packet with an optimal remap and +5s. this means you can get 4 packets per 30 day period. 30 days gametime is 1.2bn isk.
one packet will be 300m isk, minimum. assuming people don't sell these at a loss.
now consider the following; you only get 10% of that SP back if you're above 80m SP.
that means you need to buy ~40 packets to buy a month's worth of SP. that's 12bn isk, minimum.
now consider that you've got to add the price of neural extractors to that.
Not bad Dave, I like the use of proxies here. Now, looking at your ~40 packets costing ~12 billion this could be used by the very, very rich to gain quite a bit of SP. There are players with sickening amounts of ISK and they could easily afford an entire yearGÇÖs worth of SP (~144 billion ISK).
Thus, it seems to me this policy will run smack into MalcanisGÇÖ Law.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dave Stark
7565
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:23:04 -
[2233] - Quote
Laodell wrote:Please keep the sandbox a level playing field.
yes let's keep it level by forcing new players to be up to 200m sp behind older players. |
Dave Stark
7565
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:24:41 -
[2234] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
here's what we know;
it takes 7.7 days to train 500,000 to extract for a packet with an optimal remap and +5s. this means you can get 4 packets per 30 day period. 30 days gametime is 1.2bn isk.
one packet will be 300m isk, minimum. assuming people don't sell these at a loss.
now consider the following; you only get 10% of that SP back if you're above 80m SP.
that means you need to buy ~40 packets to buy a month's worth of SP. that's 12bn isk, minimum.
now consider that you've got to add the price of neural extractors to that.
Not bad Dave, I like the use of proxies here. Now, looking at your ~40 packets costing ~12 billion this could be used by the very, very rich to gain quite a bit of SP. There are players with sickening amounts of ISK and they could easily afford an entire yearGÇÖs worth of SP (~144 billion ISK). Thus, it seems to me this policy will run smack into MalcanisGÇÖ Law.
we've already dispelled that one - this change isn't aimed at new players.
if a new player wants to open their wallet - it benefits them even more than "rich" players.as for the same -ú$-ú$ cost they will get more sp than an older player with equally deep pockets.
edit: csm member mike also just worked out it'd cost just over 220 USD to buy a decent subcap pilot, pilots which are currently trading on the bazzar for a fraction of that price.
https://mikeazariah.wordpress.com/2015/10/16/csm-mike-does-maths/#comment-5420 |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1396
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:24:44 -
[2235] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Cearain wrote:Do you want to remove the *option* to play for free so you won't have to tell new player not to try that? I'm not sure of your point. My point is that these ~options~ can and will make new players form unrealistic goals which only end up cutting into their enjoyment of the game. Quote:I am not sure how this will work really. It would have to be somewhat less than the cost of training 2 characters at once I would think because you are getting less sp than a month training. Plus they are diminishing what you get. In this system someone is still using gametime to train the sp being sold on the market. Even if the skill extractor was free, a month's worth of training can't cost any less than a month's worth of gametime.
As to your first point, don't you think your being a bit paternalistic. I mean it seems to point to the question of whether eve is for children of for big boys and girls.
If people have more time then money then go ahead and earn the plex in game. If people have more money then time then pay for a plex to buy your ships. I don't see either as a problem.
As for your second point yes. That is if the extractor was free I would assume you are correct. But it won't be free. So its unclear how much this will even be used. You will pay a premium not to have to wait. I don't see the big deal.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3531
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:25:08 -
[2236] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:and that's different to now how?
if you want to skip the newbie skill grind and go straight to flying t2 cruisers - how much cash do you have? cos if you want to skip the newbie skill grind you already can. If I may pay to fly T2 cruiser I don't want to pay for sub. That's the difference. Microtransactions games are free, I can play them for free but propably I never get to the point where people with money are. It's like someone write here about rigs. They supposed to be optional but they are not. Same will be with SP. Doctrines, new skills (or high level skills, like cruise missiles for T2) etc. It's new income for CCP, which is good. It's bad because it a favors players with bigger wallets. you mean like the current system where people with bigger wallets can just buy a new character that can fly doctrine ships if theirs can't?
So we should make it even easier?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
419
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:25:19 -
[2237] - Quote
atif09 wrote:Jill Xelitras wrote: Think of it like a PI operation.
I set up 3 alts and train them to 15m SP. 5m SP is the minimum before I can extract SP. So I extract 3x 10m SP and sell 30m SP in half the time it would have taken me to train one character to 30m SP. I also didn't have to follow a specific skillplan to create a Caldari or Gallente or Amarr or Minmatar pilot with specific pvp or industry or scanning skills. It's easier than Farmville now.
After the first batch of 30m SP, I repeat the whole operation over again and again.
Sunk cost = roughly 3x4 PLEX to get my 3 alts to 5m SP.
After that it's pure PLEX to SP conversion. Each PLEX is roughly 1m SP from now on.
Do you see a difference now ?
with diminishing returns the sp will be for every 500k sp removed only 50k will be gained on accounts with more than 80m sp Characters consuming a Transneural Skill Packet will receive the following amounts of unallocated skillpoints, based on the total skillpoints trained before consumption: GÇó 0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added GÇó 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added GÇó 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added GÇó > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added
I was just describing the SP seller point of view, not people who would reapply SP extracted to their main or a clients side.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
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Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
662
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:25:52 -
[2238] - Quote
Chrome Veinss wrote:So the real life subscription price keeps increasing for many players, while the ingame PLEX price also keeps increasing without equivalent buffs to isk faucets.
All buffing faucets will do is cause PLEX to go up even more, as the supply of ISK/etc will rise.
Do you have any actual numbers on the amount of players that are left due to IRL/economic/currency exchange issues versus the players that left because of mechanics changes? Even so, if there were not as many game play reasons why people were leaving, those same people might be inclined to purchase PLEX over in game grinding, and thus make it easier and cheaper to PLEX.
Fix the in game reasons for people leaving, which I think at this point you will agree one of them may be SP but not a huge one, and PLEX may actually go down, as there are more people who want spaceships but don't have the time to grind.
Letting some people buy SP won't fill the universe with the life it needs, it will just let people of means get instant gratification. A few will have their SP faster, and the rest will have the bar set that much higher.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
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T1K1
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:26:06 -
[2239] - Quote
Some people are acting totally shocked that this would happen, but it's literally what people already do in the character bazaar. The character bazaar was the original focus of this, and people sell SP for ISK there, it's not new. This isn't really any different except that they would let you choose where you wanted the SP to go instead of just buying a character with a bunch of waste on it.
You can already just go to the Character Bazaar and buy any character with any tons of different combinations of SP. Some of them are literally perfected characters for certain activities if you are willing to pay enough. I don't see how this is all that different from the system that already exists except you get more bang for your ISK.
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Glathull
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1183
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:26:16 -
[2240] - Quote
Wow, people coming out against this are really going off the rails. Jump clones and incarna and Windows '84. Wow.
I agree with Dave Stark on this. Zero difference between this and char bazaar. I understand Tippia's point from earlier, but I don't think it holds. The bottom line is that regardless of the character the skills are assigned to, the bazaar system immediately puts the player in possession of an arbitrary number of skill points, and with the volume on the bazaar being what it is and the fact that people train chars with the express intent of selling them, it's not like you're rolling the dice when you buy one.
End result is the identical: spend the money, get the SP you want.
This isn't pay to win. If this were the only way to gain SP, or if these bought SP could give you magical level 6 or 10 in a skill, and that's the only way to get there, okay. Fine. But this isn't that. There's a usefulness cap on SP for any given ship you are flying. Nothing about that has changed.
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
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Reiisha
Repracor Industries
775
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:26:33 -
[2241] - Quote
Several commenters already mentioned this, and i feel a bit dumb for not realizing this sooner myself...
The only people who will benefit from this are the rich, or the ones who already have a lot of SP to spare.
The people this could actually help cannot afford the feature in the first place.
So yes, it smells like a plain old cash grab which feels like it will only chase people away, not a way to get more people into EVE. There are other things that need to be fixed in order to attract a new crowd...
If CCP wants to offer more opportunities to newbies, just increase the rate of training all the way up to 50m SP or so.
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
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Kyttn
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:26:33 -
[2242] - Quote
I don't know if this has been suggested yet, so apologies if I'm repeating anyone:
I think that there should also be diminishing returns when CREATING these neural packets using an extractor, but in reverse order. In other words, characters with higher skill point totals would be able to convert more of their unneeded skill points into unallocated ones, whereas newer characters would see a much less efficient conversion rate. I think this would help to discourage alt farming of excess skill points, and encourage newer players to stick with the decisions they've made unless they're truly willing to pay the price for it. Additionally, that way if someone were looking to sell off their character entirely by liquidating ALL the SP in it, it would become less and less profitable to do so the more SP you sell, meaning it would still be better to sell a character as a whole on the bazaar rather than piecemeal through the new system.
I do have a concern with the flood of SP that would initially be on the market once this feature is released. I forsee tons of long-unsubbed accounts being reactivated for just one month so that their SP can be liquidated down to the 5 million minimum, and everyone rushing to buy up all this excess SP like a California Land Rush while there's still plenty to be had. Perhaps we could consider a maximum amount of SP that are able to be extracted and injected per day/week/month? With something like a jump clone timer to help keep track? This seems like it would be a good compromise between the old system (where you had to wait for skill to be fully trained) and the new proposed system (where a new character can effictively reach the same level as a 3 year old character in a matter of hours if he had enough isk), at least until the effects can be better assessed.
And finally, I'm a little concerned about the effect this would have on skill training implants and vice versa. Would we see the need and therefor the value of these implants diminish? Or would they become even more important for those trying to farm SP? And would the drop rates of these implants be adjusted to compensate? What about characters who are injecting SP packets into their clones that have implants in them already? Would a 500,000 packet be boosted somehow if you had a full set of +5's in your head? I wouldn't think so, but it's not something that was addressed in the OP so I'd like to see that point clarified. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3531
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:27:04 -
[2243] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
here's what we know;
it takes 7.7 days to train 500,000 to extract for a packet with an optimal remap and +5s. this means you can get 4 packets per 30 day period. 30 days gametime is 1.2bn isk.
one packet will be 300m isk, minimum. assuming people don't sell these at a loss.
now consider the following; you only get 10% of that SP back if you're above 80m SP.
that means you need to buy ~40 packets to buy a month's worth of SP. that's 12bn isk, minimum.
now consider that you've got to add the price of neural extractors to that.
Not bad Dave, I like the use of proxies here. Now, looking at your ~40 packets costing ~12 billion this could be used by the very, very rich to gain quite a bit of SP. There are players with sickening amounts of ISK and they could easily afford an entire yearGÇÖs worth of SP (~144 billion ISK). Thus, it seems to me this policy will run smack into MalcanisGÇÖ Law. we've already dispelled that one - this change isn't aimed at new players. if a new player wants to open their wallet - it benefits them even more than "rich" players.as for the same -ú$-ú$ cost they will get more sp than an older player with equally deep pockets.
What myth...it is clearly in line with Malcanis' Law. This change will predominantly to the benefit of the older players. This is not good for new players, IMO.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Reiisha
Repracor Industries
775
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:28:07 -
[2244] - Quote
Glathull wrote:Wow, people coming out against this are really going off the rails. Jump clones and incarna and Windows '84. Wow.
I agree with Dave Stark on this. Zero difference between this and char bazaar. I understand Tippia's point from earlier, but I don't think it holds. The bottom line is that regardless of the character the skills are assigned to, the bazaar system immediately puts the player in possession of an arbitrary number of skill points, and with the volume on the bazaar being what it is and the fact that people train chars with the express intent of selling them, it's not like you're rolling the dice when you buy one.
End result is the identical: spend the money, get the SP you want.
This isn't pay to win. If this were the only way to gain SP, or if these bought SP could give you magical level 6 or 10 in a skill, and that's the only way to get there, okay. Fine. But this isn't that. There's a usefulness cap on SP for any given ship you are flying. Nothing about that has changed.
The bazaar system doesn't just give you SP.
It gives you a fixed amount of SP, with a fixed number of skills at fixed levels. You either take it or leave it.
You also get a fixed name and fixed reputation attached to that name.
"Just SP" is a fundamentally different concept.... It's nowhere near similar to the bazaar. Buying a character is not the same as buying skills.
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
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Dave Stark
7566
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:28:28 -
[2245] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:and that's different to now how?
if you want to skip the newbie skill grind and go straight to flying t2 cruisers - how much cash do you have? cos if you want to skip the newbie skill grind you already can. If I may pay to fly T2 cruiser I don't want to pay for sub. That's the difference. Microtransactions games are free, I can play them for free but propably I never get to the point where people with money are. It's like someone write here about rigs. They supposed to be optional but they are not. Same will be with SP. Doctrines, new skills (or high level skills, like cruise missiles for T2) etc. It's new income for CCP, which is good. It's bad because it a favors players with bigger wallets. you mean like the current system where people with bigger wallets can just buy a new character that can fly doctrine ships if theirs can't? So we should make it even easier?
no, i think we should make it harder and encourage illicit character trading.
(that's sarcasm, by the way) |
Dave Stark
7566
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:29:47 -
[2246] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:What myth...it is clearly in line with Malcanis' Law. This change will predominantly to the benefit of the older players. This is not good for new players, IMO.
it isn't in line with malcanis' law. the change isn't aimed at new players. we've been through this.
"Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."
this change hasn't been proposed for new players, it has been proposed for all players. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3531
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:30:03 -
[2247] - Quote
Glathull wrote:Wow, people coming out against this are really going off the rails. Jump clones and incarna and Windows '84. Wow.
I agree with Dave Stark on this. Zero difference between this and char bazaar. I understand Tippia's point from earlier, but I don't think it holds. The bottom line is that regardless of the character the skills are assigned to, the bazaar system immediately puts the player in possession of an arbitrary number of skill points, and with the volume on the bazaar being what it is and the fact that people train chars with the express intent of selling them, it's not like you're rolling the dice when you buy one.
End result is the identical: spend the money, get the SP you want.
This isn't pay to win. If this were the only way to gain SP, or if these bought SP could give you magical level 6 or 10 in a skill, and that's the only way to get there, okay. Fine. But this isn't that. There's a usefulness cap on SP for any given ship you are flying. Nothing about that has changed.
Actually, there is a big difference between this and the character bazaar, source CCP Rise.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Dave Stark
7566
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:30:48 -
[2248] - Quote
Glathull wrote:I agree with Dave Stark on this.
fyi, that makes you wrong by default :) |
Sloeb
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:32:16 -
[2249] - Quote
I'm mildly against this. Mainly because it sort of undermines the blood, sweat and tears that I've put in over the years. I'm unlikely to use this because as a rule I don't support this sort of excessive money grubbing.
That said, if this does come to pass CCP, please closely consider the numbers behind the diminishing returns part of this. There's already a diminishing returns mechanic that "punishes" vets...skill ranks. 50,000 SP may be a big chunk of a rank 1 or 2 skill, but is much less of a percentage of progress of higher rank skills. While a low SP character is getting a huge bang for their buck if they're training primarily low rank skills, an 80M+ SP toon probably has just about all of those low rank skills already trained. They'll want to be skilling much more expensive skills and 50K is a drop in the bucket on those. I can't imagine that you'd get too many high SP players spending money for the tiny gains they'd be getting. I certainly won't.
That's all. Cheers. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3531
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:34:00 -
[2250] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:What myth...it is clearly in line with Malcanis' Law. This change will predominantly to the benefit of the older players. This is not good for new players, IMO.
it isn't in line with malcanis' law. the change isn't aimed at new players. we've been through this. "Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players." this change hasn't been proposed for new players, it has been proposed for all players.
Okay, but I don't think older players need any more advantage. We already have high SP character(s) and most have pretty hefty wallets...now we should have the ability to gain even more of an edge?
Not sure that is what we need right now.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3531
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Posted - 2015.10.16 22:35:41 -
[2251] - Quote
Sloeb wrote:I'm mildly against this. Mainly because it sort of undermines the blood, sweat and tears that I've put in over the years. I'm unlikely to use this because as a rule I don't support this sort of excessive money grubbing.
That said, if this does come to pass CCP, please closely consider the numbers behind the diminishing returns part of this. There's already a diminishing returns mechanic that "punishes" vets...skill ranks. 50,000 SP may be a big chunk of a rank 1 or 2 skill, but is much less of a percentage of progress of higher rank skills. While a low SP character is getting a huge bang for their buck if they're training primarily low rank skills, an 80M+ SP toon probably has just about all of those low rank skills already trained. They'll want to be skilling much more expensive skills and 50K is a drop in the bucket on those. I can't imagine that you'd get too many high SP players spending money for the tiny gains they'd be getting. I certainly won't.
That's all. Cheers.
Okay Grandpa, can you tell us the story again about how you walked to school, in the snow, up hill...both ways?
You can be against this, but the "I put in my time, everyone else should too" makes you sound like an old fart complaining that people don't want to wait for things when they don't have too.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dave Stark
7566
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:38:01 -
[2252] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:What myth...it is clearly in line with Malcanis' Law. This change will predominantly to the benefit of the older players. This is not good for new players, IMO.
it isn't in line with malcanis' law. the change isn't aimed at new players. we've been through this. "Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players." this change hasn't been proposed for new players, it has been proposed for all players. Okay, but I don't think older players need any more advantage. We already have high SP character(s) and most have pretty hefty wallets...now we should have the ability to gain even more of an edge? Not sure that is what we need right now.
what kind of edge would dumping extra SP on their main 50k at a time give them that buying an alt for the fraction of a price to do whatever it is they're trying to achieve give them?
as mike pointed out in his blog - most of the bazzar characters are cheaper than it would be to "build" your own from packets even from 0-30m sp or something.
seriously - what kind of edge would they be getting? |
Vollhov
Senators of Eridan Red Alliance
319
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:38:06 -
[2253] - Quote
100+ page. http://previews.123rf.com/images/dejanj01/dejanj010904/dejanj01090400065/4677395-smiling-ball-watching-movie-in-cinema-smiley-emoticon-face.jpg
Stop writing. Go to dismantle the monument to the Amarr.
Thanks you -í-íP Falcon "that helped to quit EVE"
Grand Empress Jamyl Sarum YC110
CCP can never come up with such a character as Jamyl Sarum.
"All these wayward children."
You'll have to stand me before February. =)
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T1K1
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:39:20 -
[2254] - Quote
Reiisha wrote:Glathull wrote:Wow, people coming out against this are really going off the rails. Jump clones and incarna and Windows '84. Wow.
I agree with Dave Stark on this. Zero difference between this and char bazaar. I understand Tippia's point from earlier, but I don't think it holds. The bottom line is that regardless of the character the skills are assigned to, the bazaar system immediately puts the player in possession of an arbitrary number of skill points, and with the volume on the bazaar being what it is and the fact that people train chars with the express intent of selling them, it's not like you're rolling the dice when you buy one.
End result is the identical: spend the money, get the SP you want.
This isn't pay to win. If this were the only way to gain SP, or if these bought SP could give you magical level 6 or 10 in a skill, and that's the only way to get there, okay. Fine. But this isn't that. There's a usefulness cap on SP for any given ship you are flying. Nothing about that has changed. The bazaar system doesn't just give you SP. It gives you a fixed amount of SP, with a fixed number of skills at fixed levels. You either take it or leave it. You also get a fixed name and fixed reputation attached to that name. "Just SP" is a fundamentally different concept.... It's nowhere near similar to the bazaar. Buying a character is not the same as buying skills.
There are so many characters for sale there per week that you can find any type of character you want. Even exactly the specialty you want with no known reputation and no wasted skills if you are patient. Nothing about it is fixed, there are 200m SP characters that come up for sale every now and then. There are 5m SP mining pilots and 120m SP Titan pilots you can buy there.
You either take it or you just find one you like better the next day. There are a lot of people selling characters. Trading around SP like this is not new. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9254
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:42:35 -
[2255] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: What myth...it is clearly in line with Malcanis' Law. This change will predominantly to the benefit of the older players. This is not good for new players, IMO.
It's not anything for new players. Just another of the many, many things they won't have a clue about. It will not affect them in any way. Just because something is good for old players does not mean it's bad for new players. It just means it's good for old players.
And speaking of that. If it was actually good for old players, I have to wonder why there are so many vet tears in here.
People need to stop stating opinion as fact and speaking knowledgeably about a Dev-Blog they obviously haven't read past the title of (not directed at you). There are some well thought out opinions in here and some considered responses to them, but these are lost in the morass of raving fear mongering that takes up 90% of this thread.
The good thing is it's starting to settle down quicker than usual and we can start to have a civil discussion.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Soul-on-Ice
Doughboys Snuffed Out
63
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:45:42 -
[2256] - Quote
You asked for feedback so I'm sure you expected the types of input you are getting from the largely inexperienced and unqualified (to have an opinon) players who are responding.
I must have sold 50 to 100 toons on the character bazaar throughout the years.
Seems like a great idea. And it apprears the way in which you plan to exact the plan is pretty logical.
Lets do it.
If I had a complain it would be that some of the SP I would looking at selling off is SP that was intially required for carriers like BS5 and ****... so in in some cases the only reason I got excesses of SP with alts is your fault to begin with.
BUt as always...improvising, adaptive and overcoming > QQing. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3532
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:47:10 -
[2257] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:What myth...it is clearly in line with Malcanis' Law. This change will predominantly to the benefit of the older players. This is not good for new players, IMO.
it isn't in line with malcanis' law. the change isn't aimed at new players. we've been through this. "Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players." this change hasn't been proposed for new players, it has been proposed for all players. Okay, but I don't think older players need any more advantage. We already have high SP character(s) and most have pretty hefty wallets...now we should have the ability to gain even more of an edge? Not sure that is what we need right now. what kind of edge would dumping extra SP on their main 50k at a time give them that buying an alt for the fraction of a price to do whatever it is they're trying to achieve give them? as mike pointed out in his blog - most of the bazzar characters are cheaper than it would be to "build" your own from packets even from 0-30m sp or something. seriously - what kind of edge would they be getting?
It isn't just mains, it is alts as well. Or re-arranging SP at the micro level. Suppose I have 2 cap alts who can fly the moros and revelation both at level 5 and I decide...screw it, I don't need an alt with 2 racial dreads...I'll keep the moros skill, dump the rev. So I buy the extractors, and then create 2 new character on free slots and pump in the SP and create a character that can fly iskprinter ishtars. Now I've taken 2 nearly fallow alt and created 2 that have improved my ISK stream. I know guys who have a few of these characters...they could park a small fleet of iskprinters in the anomalies. Or suppose I want to try my hand at trading. Now I could create trading alts and park them in different trade hubs.
Can a new player do these things? No. The bottom line is that older players will tend to have more flexibility than the newer players...that is an advantage.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Sloeb
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:47:13 -
[2258] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Sloeb wrote:I'm mildly against this. Mainly because it sort of undermines the blood, sweat and tears that I've put in over the years. I'm unlikely to use this because as a rule I don't support this sort of excessive money grubbing.
That said, if this does come to pass CCP, please closely consider the numbers behind the diminishing returns part of this. There's already a diminishing returns mechanic that "punishes" vets...skill ranks. 50,000 SP may be a big chunk of a rank 1 or 2 skill, but is much less of a percentage of progress of higher rank skills. While a low SP character is getting a huge bang for their buck if they're training primarily low rank skills, an 80M+ SP toon probably has just about all of those low rank skills already trained. They'll want to be skilling much more expensive skills and 50K is a drop in the bucket on those. I can't imagine that you'd get too many high SP players spending money for the tiny gains they'd be getting. I certainly won't.
That's all. Cheers. Okay Grandpa, can you tell us the story again about how you walked to school, in the snow, up hill...both ways? You can be against this, but the "I put in my time, everyone else should too" makes you sound like an old fart complaining that people don't want to wait for things when they don't have too.
Yeah, yeah. Get off my lawn! |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
74
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:48:12 -
[2259] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:People have either genuinely forgotten just how bad the first year of play is, or they're deluded.
I have not. Even though EVE back then was much tougher game then nowadays, we had fun. Imagine bunch of people mining in frigs for days for corps first cruiser, then mining for months to get a first BS. Starting trade with less than 5mil isk and making the first billion, months after.Boring? Not really, it was sh*tload of fun, experiencing new game totally different from all others, learning new things every day, working on improving both isk / sp / skills and trying to soak all the possible knowledge we could. Socializing with other players, making friendships which still last, years after it even if all of us do not play the game anymore. RL meetings of players from different countries with shared joy of playing in the same corp/alliance. Checking different aspects of the game. First alliance and access to 0.0 and rich ores. First BS which i could have afford months before i started flying it as i wanted to develop proper skills first. So many nice memories, I cant even remember the "hard, slow game" part. Actually first 3-4 years of eve were the best in my career.
With this knowledge/experience, if you ask me was it better that way or it would be better with easier start I would definitely choose the way I already did.
I am sure some will say that it was different as the most of players were starters, but keep in mind that there were plenty of people who had played beta and had quite big advantage over new players as they had knowledge what to do. They did not make mistakes like me putting too much attributes in charisma etc :P
One of the things was common for all the players who sticked to the game and made it what it is. Commitment and willingness to put time and efforts in it, no matter how hard it is. And I do think that is what made EVE to stick out from different games, toughness and need for elitist players, if you were not ready for it, you would not play it. So making it easier in my opinion is just plain wrong, it is not what people want from this game. At least the most of the people who are ready to commit seriously.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1744
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:51:35 -
[2260] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Ima, I'll respond to the PLEX price portion of your argument in a different post. Ima Wreckyou wrote:Since you can now create gank alts within 16min you can start the queue on the SP farm alt right away. Your colleague has already explained how the 400k rookie pilot (today) can turn into an 82% max dps efficient gank alt in about 9 days and 350 dps pilot in 15 minutes. Regardless of how little time it takes to train a gank munchkin, it is still against EULA to recycle alts for ganking purposes, so I'm not sure what the problem here is that you're highlighting.
This "plan" has nothing to do with alt recycling of any kind. It simply shows how you can basically create free alts on accounts who are always subscribed because they are part of an SP farm. This is interesting for ganking because of the limited skills needed there.
This pool of gank alt accounts stays that way and you can scale your fleet easily for the DPS needed or relog to circumvent the criminal timer.
The only thing you can't do is biomass an alt with negative sec status to get a new one with intact sec status.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
193
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:53:44 -
[2261] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:The good thing is it's starting to settle down quicker than usual and we can start to have a civil discussion. Mr Epeen Over a 110 pages and you think it is settling down quicker than usual? *chuckles*
It is going the same way all threads usually go, you get the initial response from the majority of people, and then towards the middle you get more reasoned discussion on the merits and drawbacks of the idea, and then towards the end you get the same old faces endlessly discussing/trolling the same points over and over again with no one agreeing.
We are at the end stage now.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Dave Stark
7566
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Posted - 2015.10.16 22:54:17 -
[2262] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:What myth...it is clearly in line with Malcanis' Law. This change will predominantly to the benefit of the older players. This is not good for new players, IMO.
it isn't in line with malcanis' law. the change isn't aimed at new players. we've been through this. "Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players." this change hasn't been proposed for new players, it has been proposed for all players. Okay, but I don't think older players need any more advantage. We already have high SP character(s) and most have pretty hefty wallets...now we should have the ability to gain even more of an edge? Not sure that is what we need right now. what kind of edge would dumping extra SP on their main 50k at a time give them that buying an alt for the fraction of a price to do whatever it is they're trying to achieve give them? as mike pointed out in his blog - most of the bazzar characters are cheaper than it would be to "build" your own from packets even from 0-30m sp or something. seriously - what kind of edge would they be getting? It isn't just mains, it is alts as well. Or re-arranging SP at the micro level. Suppose I have 2 cap alts who can fly the moros and revelation both at level 5 and I decide...screw it, I don't need an alt with 2 racial dreads...I'll keep the moros skill, dump the rev. So I buy the extractors, and then create 2 new character on free slots and pump in the SP and create a character that can fly iskprinter ishtars. Now I've taken 2 nearly fallow alt and created 2 that have improved my ISK stream. I know guys who have a few of these characters...they could park a small fleet of iskprinters in the anomalies. Or suppose I want to try my hand at trading. Now I could create trading alts and park them in different trade hubs. Can a new player do these things? No. The bottom line is that older players will tend to have more flexibility than the newer players...that is an advantage.
you can already buy an extra character. - anyone can.
yes, a new player can do those things. they open their wallet, buy plex, sell them, then buy new characters.
if new players open their wallets, just like old players, they can do exactly the same thing. character or account age doesn't stop you using this new system or the character bazaar. |
Morihei Akachi
Nishida Corporation
191
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:55:43 -
[2263] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Marsha Mallow wrote:People have either genuinely forgotten just how bad the first year of play is, or they're deluded. I have not. Even though EVE back then was much tougher game then nowadays, we had fun. But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't believe ya'.
More seriously: I had a great first year. I have no idea what Marsha Mallow is talking about.
"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and donGÇÖt belong in Eve Online. (And as for GÇ£scopedGÇ¥ GǪ)
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3532
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:56:06 -
[2264] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: What myth...it is clearly in line with Malcanis' Law. This change will predominantly to the benefit of the older players. This is not good for new players, IMO.
It's not anything for new players. Just another of the many, many things they won't have a clue about. It will not affect them in any way. Just because something is good for old players does not mean it's bad for new players. It just means it's good for old players. And speaking of that. If it was actually good for old players, I have to wonder why there are so many vet tears in here. People need to stop stating opinion as fact and speaking knowledgeably about a Dev-Blog they obviously haven't read past the title of (not directed at you). There are some well thought out opinions in here and some considered responses to them, but these are lost in the morass of raving fear mongering that takes up 90% of this thread. The good thing is it's starting to settle down quicker than usual and we can start to have a civil discussion. Mr Epeen
So we agree that this will benefit the older players, and probably not the new players (as much). And yes, I agree that much of the posting is just knee-jerk responses.
My view, and it is not a fact I admit, is that players who have plenty of SP already and are generally have quite a bit of wealth don't need an additional advantage. We even know the game mechanics better than the new player.
My other concern is, what is the downside for this change? I know everyone says, "EVE is dying!" and it is considered a joke. But is there a chance this could be very bad for the game? Or is this going to be unicorns and lollipops with zero probability of any downside risk?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Abla Tive
99
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Posted - 2015.10.16 22:57:29 -
[2265] - Quote
Let us look further at the economics of the proposal.
1) CCP won't want to destroy the character bazaar. Thus the price per skill point will be significantly higher than the price per skill point in the bazaar.
2) the bazaar price is about 1 B isk per 2 M skill points (or 250M per 500,000 sp packet).
3) The previously calculated break even training price of 300M per packet to the player is in line with that because people can fund an account through training and selling toons. Because selling packets is much more flexible, CCP has to raise that cost higher, let us assume that they need to double the price. Anything less and the bazaar is doomed. Much more and nobody will buy.
Which suggest that the extractors will need to be priced at least at 250M per each. This makes a total price for the packets of about 500M per packet. Or about 2 packets per plex.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3532
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:59:31 -
[2266] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
you can already buy an extra character. - anyone can.
yes, a new player can do those things. they open their wallet, buy plex, sell them, then buy new characters.
if new players open their wallets, just like old players, they can do exactly the same thing. character or account age doesn't stop you using this new system or the character bazaar.
Sure but this makes it easier, faster, more efficient with less risk (i.e., I end up an AWOXer...whoops). Is that a good thing? Usually, I'd say yes...but this is a game balance discussion. Getting across the galaxy in game super fast was pretty much seen as a bad thing.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Dave Stark
7566
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Posted - 2015.10.16 23:02:19 -
[2267] - Quote
Abla Tive wrote:Let us look further at the economics of the proposal.
1) CCP won't want to destroy the character bazaar. Thus the price per skill point will be significantly higher than the price per skill point in the bazaar.
2) the bazaar price is about 1 B isk per 2 M skill points (or 250M per 500,000 sp packet).
3) The previously calculated break even training price of 300M per packet to the player is in line with that because people can fund an account through training and selling toons. Because selling packets is much more flexible, CCP has to raise that cost higher, let us assume that they need to double the price. Anything less and the bazaar is doomed. Much more and nobody will buy.
Which suggest that the extractors will need to be priced at least at 250M per each. This makes a total price for the packets of about 500M per packet. Or about 2 packets per plex.
you don't even need the extractors in order to make the bazaar more competitive. the diminishing returns makes any SP character with a higher SP total than the first diminishing return bracket uncompetitive compared to the bazaar.
for example, if you were to take two 80m characters and turn them in to 80.5m characters. it would take 1 plex (1.2bn) and 30 days to achieve that normally (since you can't buy a fraction of a plex), or 10 packets (77 days of time), which would cost 3bn isk.
instantly we can see that just dumping SP on a character prices it out of the running. it costs more than double for the same amount of SP. |
Dave Stark
7566
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 23:03:53 -
[2268] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
you can already buy an extra character. - anyone can.
yes, a new player can do those things. they open their wallet, buy plex, sell them, then buy new characters.
if new players open their wallets, just like old players, they can do exactly the same thing. character or account age doesn't stop you using this new system or the character bazaar.
Sure but this makes it easier, faster, more efficient with less risk (i.e., I end up an AWOXer...whoops). Is that a good thing? Usually, I'd say yes...but this is a game balance discussion. Getting across the galaxy in game super fast was pretty much seen as a bad thing.
is it a good thing?
if it further reduces the reason and need for people to illicitly buy/sell characters on ebay to avoid the complexity/convoluted system presented with forum thread auctions and ccp's transfer system.
yes, very much so. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3532
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 23:08:28 -
[2269] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Abla Tive wrote:Let us look further at the economics of the proposal.
1) CCP won't want to destroy the character bazaar. Thus the price per skill point will be significantly higher than the price per skill point in the bazaar.
2) the bazaar price is about 1 B isk per 2 M skill points (or 250M per 500,000 sp packet).
3) The previously calculated break even training price of 300M per packet to the player is in line with that because people can fund an account through training and selling toons. Because selling packets is much more flexible, CCP has to raise that cost higher, let us assume that they need to double the price. Anything less and the bazaar is doomed. Much more and nobody will buy.
Which suggest that the extractors will need to be priced at least at 250M per each. This makes a total price for the packets of about 500M per packet. Or about 2 packets per plex.
you don't even need the extractors in order to make the bazaar more competitive. the diminishing returns makes any SP character with a higher SP total than the first diminishing return bracket uncompetitive compared to the bazaar. for example, if you were to take two 80m characters and turn them in to 80.5m characters. it would take 1 plex (1.2bn) and 30 days to achieve that normally (since you can't buy a fraction of a plex), or 10 packets (77 days of time), which would cost 3bn isk. instantly we can see that just dumping SP on a character prices it out of the running. it costs more than double for the same amount of SP.
People don't make decisions based on just the price alone though.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3532
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 23:09:23 -
[2270] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
you can already buy an extra character. - anyone can.
yes, a new player can do those things. they open their wallet, buy plex, sell them, then buy new characters.
if new players open their wallets, just like old players, they can do exactly the same thing. character or account age doesn't stop you using this new system or the character bazaar.
Sure but this makes it easier, faster, more efficient with less risk (i.e., I end up an AWOXer...whoops). Is that a good thing? Usually, I'd say yes...but this is a game balance discussion. Getting across the galaxy in game super fast was pretty much seen as a bad thing. is it a good thing? if it further reduces the reason and need for people to illicitly buy/sell characters on ebay to avoid the complexity/convoluted system presented with forum thread auctions and ccp's transfer system. yes, very much so.
So you see absolutely no potential down side? At all? The risk of this going off the rails is zero, it is impossible?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
419
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 23:12:36 -
[2271] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Jill Xelitras wrote: Think of it like a PI operation.
I set up 3 alts and train them to 15m SP. 5m SP is the minimum before I can extract SP. So I extract 3x 10m SP and sell 30m SP in half the time it would have taken me to train one character to 30m SP. I also didn't have to follow a specific skillplan to create a Caldari or Gallente or Amarr or Minmatar pilot with specific pvp or industry or scanning skills. It's easier than Farmville now.
After the first batch of 30m SP, I repeat the whole operation over again and again.
Sunk cost = roughly 3x4 PLEX to get my 3 alts to 5m SP.
After that it's pure PLEX to SP conversion. Each PLEX is roughly 1m SP from now on.
Do you see a difference now ?
Doesn't change the fact, that the skills are still trained. The skills does not pop up from thin air, which was what the guy initially argued. Whether this mechanic can be abused, is something completely different. Your example, shows a possible abuse and does not really contribute to the original discussion (which was regarding the time spent on training the skills). The argument is not that the SP pop up from thin air, but that training time isn't a 1 to 1 trade anymore.
Under the current system a character is sold as a whole package that took x months to train. The seller and buyer trade x months training time in specific skills for a certain amount of ISK.
With the proposed method a buyer can buy unallocated SP and apply them to any skill he wants and as often as he wants. Everytime he wants to fly something new that he couldn't fly before, it's sufficient to open the wallet ... no more waiting time.
At the same time the seller doesn't have to train one character for months to get him up to specs. A seller can optimize his SP output with a litteral farm of SP creating alts. This way 3 months worth of skilling could become 3x 1 month worth of skilling. The ability to scale up SP farming is a risk factor.
Let's consider the buyer side again. As others have pointed out already: If new players get the signal that you have to buy SP booster packs to be competitive, the psychological hurdle to keep playing EvE might become too high ... much as the perceived need to spend time training SP is now. The difference would just be that we swap time for money.
I'm not against the idea of SP reallocation per se, I'm pointing out what could be a problem.
I liked some proposals made here: One was to limit the amount of SP boostable per month or year. Another was to convert SP extracted into a training time acceleration.
Maekchu wrote:
At this point in time, it is really not possible to tell, if it will be profitable to do the above scenario, since we don't have all the information needed to make such a judgement. But it sure is a concern and something CCP hopefully will take into account. This is the reason for this thread. So people can discuss this change in a rational manner, and not throw their arms in the air screaming "Ragnarok!" and "The end times are near!". The latter provides nothing constructive to the table.
I think that I have been constructive.
You're right that we lack the information on profitability of a scaled up farming operation. It could be that a surplus of SP boost packs is created by everyone who wants to get rid of undesired skills, thereby crashing the market for SP boosters. That would allow some players to get SP on the cheap.
We can speculate though, that players with less money to spend might feel shafted when other players can buy both ISK and SP at their leisure. Of course it's possible, that we get more players in who didn't like being held back by training times.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2783
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 23:13:56 -
[2272] - Quote
Man this thread proves you can pack a lot of actual stupid into one MMO.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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Dave Stark
7566
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 23:13:56 -
[2273] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
you can already buy an extra character. - anyone can.
yes, a new player can do those things. they open their wallet, buy plex, sell them, then buy new characters.
if new players open their wallets, just like old players, they can do exactly the same thing. character or account age doesn't stop you using this new system or the character bazaar.
Sure but this makes it easier, faster, more efficient with less risk (i.e., I end up an AWOXer...whoops). Is that a good thing? Usually, I'd say yes...but this is a game balance discussion. Getting across the galaxy in game super fast was pretty much seen as a bad thing. is it a good thing? if it further reduces the reason and need for people to illicitly buy/sell characters on ebay to avoid the complexity/convoluted system presented with forum thread auctions and ccp's transfer system. yes, very much so. So you see absolutely no potential down side? At all? The risk of this going off the rails is zero, it is impossible?
considering literally every downside people have come up with are simply things that already exist it seems we already have the downsides. if we've already got the problems there's no reason not to make the system suck less.
gonna go back to a point that i made to tippia.
you can dump sp on a character until it has all Vs. what can it do that can't be matched by a character that you can purchase from the bazaar? nothing - we're long past the time where nobody can do something perfectly because of a lack of SP. |
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
202
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 23:15:37 -
[2274] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:And speaking of that. If it was actually good for old players, I have to wonder why there are so many vet tears in here. Some old players are afraid it will disproportionately benefit rival old players. |
Tavin Aikisen
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
367
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 23:16:03 -
[2275] - Quote
Don't be f---ing stupid, CCP.
It's as if modern gaming doesn't even want you to play the game anymore. Everything has to trend towards some sort of "instant" outcome.
"Remember this. Trust your eyes, you will kill each other. Trust your veins, you can all go home."
-Cold Wind
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Hochopepa
POS Consultants Group LLC
10
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Posted - 2015.10.16 23:17:10 -
[2276] - Quote
Worst idea in years.
The only thing I ever wanted in this regards would be the ability to take some of the useless SP I have and convert them to useful SP. Maybe a conversion ratio based on attributes of trained skill vs new skill. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3532
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 23:19:42 -
[2277] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
you can already buy an extra character. - anyone can.
yes, a new player can do those things. they open their wallet, buy plex, sell them, then buy new characters.
if new players open their wallets, just like old players, they can do exactly the same thing. character or account age doesn't stop you using this new system or the character bazaar.
Sure but this makes it easier, faster, more efficient with less risk (i.e., I end up an AWOXer...whoops). Is that a good thing? Usually, I'd say yes...but this is a game balance discussion. Getting across the galaxy in game super fast was pretty much seen as a bad thing. is it a good thing? if it further reduces the reason and need for people to illicitly buy/sell characters on ebay to avoid the complexity/convoluted system presented with forum thread auctions and ccp's transfer system. yes, very much so. So you see absolutely no potential down side? At all? The risk of this going off the rails is zero, it is impossible? considering literally every downside people have come up with are simply things that already exist it seems we already have the downsides. if we've already got the problems there's no reason not to make the system suck less. gonna go back to a point that i made to tippia. you can dump sp on a character until it has all Vs. what can it do that can't be matched by a character that you can purchase from the bazaar? nothing - we're long past the time where nobody can do something perfectly because of a lack of SP.
That is not quite what I was getting at. I'm talking about something nobody has thought of yet that has a downside. Do you think that is zero?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dave Stark
7566
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 23:24:30 -
[2278] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:That is not quite what I was getting at. I'm talking about something nobody has thought of yet that has a downside. Do you think that is zero?
if some one can break the game by adding sp to a character, the thing we all do daily, then fair play to them. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3532
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 23:28:51 -
[2279] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:That is not quite what I was getting at. I'm talking about something nobody has thought of yet that has a downside. Do you think that is zero?
if some one can break the game by adding sp to a character, the thing we all do daily, then fair play to them.
I'm getting the impression you think it is zero.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
SKINE DMZ
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
494
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Posted - 2015.10.16 23:36:43 -
[2280] - Quote
Just here to say, terrible idea CCP.
I disagree
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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
419
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Posted - 2015.10.16 23:50:19 -
[2281] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Laodell wrote:Please keep the sandbox a level playing field. yes let's keep it level by forcing new players to be up to 200m sp behind older players.
I don't know the current figures, but it used to be that a majority of players had left EvE before they had reached 4 years.
Let's also not forget that you're maxed out in each skill once you reach level 5. No player is ever competing with all of the existing skills at the same time, except Dr Caymus and fellow skill collectors. Usually you just compete on a subset of the existing skills.
It's important to help new players get a complete subset of their choosing. If it takes all new players the same time to achieve this goal, that's a level playing field. Rising the tide so that every new player rises at the same speed is helpful.
Telling new players that they have to get as many skills as 10+ year old characters is outright dishonest. Especially if you couple it with pay to advance faster options.
BTW, when's the last time that you needed to have the skill to create an alliance and allow 5000 players in your corporation ?
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
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BearStrikesBack
Sequent Industry Out of Sight.
2
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Posted - 2015.10.17 00:09:38 -
[2282] - Quote
A lot of been already said. I'm here just to say - #FozzieOUT! |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
419
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 00:14:00 -
[2283] - Quote
Kyttn wrote:I don't know if this has been suggested yet, so apologies if I'm repeating anyone:
I think that there should also be diminishing returns when CREATING these neural packets using an extractor, but in reverse order. In other words, characters with higher skill point totals would be able to convert more of their unneeded skill points into unallocated ones, whereas newer characters would see a much less efficient conversion rate. I think this would help to discourage alt farming of excess skill points, and encourage newer players to stick with the decisions they've made unless they're truly willing to pay the price for it. Additionally, that way if someone were looking to sell off their character entirely by liquidating ALL the SP in it, it would become less and less profitable to do so the more SP you sell, meaning it would still be better to sell a character as a whole on the bazaar rather than piecemeal through the new system.
I do have a concern with the flood of SP that would initially be on the market once this feature is released. I forsee tons of long-unsubbed accounts being reactivated for just one month so that their SP can be liquidated down to the 5 million minimum, and everyone rushing to buy up all this excess SP like a California Land Rush while there's still plenty to be had. Perhaps we could consider a maximum amount of SP that are able to be extracted and injected per day/week/month? With something like a jump clone timer to help keep track? This seems like it would be a good compromise between the old system (where you had to wait for skill to be fully trained) and the new proposed system (where a new character can effictively reach the same level as a 3 year old character in a matter of hours if he had enough isk), at least until the effects can be better assessed.
And finally, I'm a little concerned about the effect this would have on skill training implants and vice versa. Would we see the need and therefor the value of these implants diminish? Or would they become even more important for those trying to farm SP? And would the drop rates of these implants be adjusted to compensate? What about characters who are injecting SP packets into their clones that have implants in them already? Would a 500,000 packet be boosted somehow if you had a full set of +5's in your head? I wouldn't think so, but it's not something that was addressed in the OP so I'd like to see that point clarified.
Good points. This could be the opportunity to get rid of attributes, attribute remaps and attribute modifying implants.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
295
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 00:15:01 -
[2284] - Quote
I believe changes to character trading (as in improving it overall) would be a better expenditure of time and effort.
But trading SP? Kinda breaks a lot of what makes EVE what it is. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9255
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 00:21:47 -
[2285] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
So we agree that this will benefit the older players, and probably not the new players (as much).
I don't really think it will benefit any one demographic over another. Be it vets, newbs, PVPers, alts, gankers, cyno toons or any other one group.
It'll just be a thing. Some will use it and some won't. And after an initial burst of activity, most won't, in my opinion. As I said before, I feel it will be used for the occasional top up. It'll always be cheaper to buy a character than it will be to add anything but the smallest amount of SP to an existing one.
I can guarantee you that no character traders will ever take advantage of it. The margins are too tight as it is with transfer costs at 2.5 billion ISK. No one will be adding overpriced SP to a character they think they may be selling at some point. There is a possibility of buying crap characters and removing skills to tighten them up and make them more marketable, but that needs to wait until we see the actual costs before I'll say more on it.
As for farming SP for sale. That will work in the case of having a fully trained character on an acct that will be subbed anyway. Just like we do now with characters. Characters built specifically for sale essentially for free as you need to be subbed anyway to keep using the main on that acct. But those with dreams of paying for accts simply to farm are going to find out how easy it is to take a huge loss in this game when you don't think things through.
So, as I see it, no big game breaking disaster. Just another option that may or may not get used very often. Like many other things that were going to kill EVE and be abused to hell, it won't happen. People are inherently lazy and can't be bothered to figure out how to abuse stuff if it isn't handed to them. What people are good at is crying wolf for no good reason. There will be this little uproar and then a month after the plan is implemented everyone will forget about it and move on to the next thing to cry about.
Won't be the first time this has happened and it won't be the last. As said, and as usual in here, much ado about nothing.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25745
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 00:22:18 -
[2286] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:This "plan" has nothing to do with alt recycling of any kind. It simply shows how you can basically create free alts on accounts who are always subscribed because they are part of an SP farm. This is interesting for ganking because of the limited skills needed there. I misunderstood your original post. Thanks for the clarification. From what you said:
Quote:since the SP you produce by consuming this PLEX will always sell for more than they cost to produce this way
You're saying SP is a commodity that will always retain its value (in fact its value will always closely follow the value of the most valuable commodity in the game now, which is PLEX). This commodity will be able to be earned by anyone:
- With a character with at least 5M SP
- 100% passively
- Without any interference from market forces that are faced by by all other passive income in the game, like PI or Industry
But something is off about your math. Specifically:
- You can only sell 4 skill packets "per month" (since the SP alt will only gain 2M SP/month at max)
- To sell 4 skill packets, you have to purchase 4 extractors with AUR or ISK
- In order to PLEX your account you will have to earn as much ISK as 1 PLEX + 4 Extractors
I don't see it happening.
And I wish I could shout you out
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
138
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 00:26:09 -
[2287] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:xttz wrote:Point of note that some posting here seem to have missed:
You're not buying skills for real money. Someone has to extract those skillpoints from another character first, then the fee allows the transfer. Kinda like we currently do to transfer whole characters already.
to be honest, that's exactly what it is. i have an account that only holds characters that require no further skilling for their purpose. i would start selling every single SP trained on this account on the day this goes live.
Enjoy it while you can cause this game isn't gonna be around that much longer for you to enjoy the cheap gains from this disastrous mistake made by CCP.
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25745
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 00:33:15 -
[2288] - Quote
Laodell wrote:What you're asking for is a world without consequences. No that's not correct. I just don't think having consequences for skill point choices leads to interesting gameplay. In fact, the only side effect is that you force someone to wait, which is the opposite of playing the game.
Quote:As for the character bazaar that line has been discussed. It is no where near buying SP. You're buying a character. You have to perform the research and make a wise decision. The Character Bazaar will be cheaper in terms of ISK per SP. It comes with downsides, but it has all of the advantages that are being criticized in this thread:
- Instant gain of SP without spending a second of training on any of them
- Cesspool for recycling of less reputable personalities of EVE (spies, corp thieves)
- Players skipping to end game content
- Players flying ships they have no clue about
- Favors IRL rich players. Rich players can buy characters with more SP
Quote:Being able to look at a persons reputation is paramount in determining the safety of a new corp-mate. Remove that and you remove a lot of the safety in building within the game. Then there's CODE destroying game play for the new players and driving them off too. What reputation? It is easy to bury a corp spy. Many spies jump corp to corp with impugnity. The so-called recruiter intelligence provided by Character Bazaar is not as significant as you're making it out to be.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25745
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 00:34:13 -
[2289] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Enjoy it while you can cause this game isn't gonna be around that much longer for you to enjoy the cheap gains from this disastrous mistake made by CCP. It's like we haven't heard this exact statement a million times before.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
75
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 00:40:37 -
[2290] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Enjoy it while you can cause this game isn't gonna be around that much longer for you to enjoy the cheap gains from this disastrous mistake made by CCP. It's like we haven't heard this exact statement a million times before.
It`s like the player base did not shrink really.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
|
Bill Lassiter
Black Serpent Technologies The-Culture
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 00:42:24 -
[2291] - Quote
Hello CCP o/
What about the idea of reviving some model of SP loss when podded in combination with allowing the transfer of SP? Maybe transferred SP is tracked and categorized differently, and can be lost on death - along with skills purchased with it? |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
138
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 00:43:02 -
[2292] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
So we agree that this will benefit the older players, and probably not the new players (as much).
I don't really think it will benefit any one demographic over another. Be it vets, newbs, PVPers, alts, gankers, cyno toons or any other one group. It'll just be a thing. Some will use it and some won't. And after an initial burst of activity, most won't, in my opinion. As I said before, I feel it will be used for the occasional top up. It'll always be cheaper to buy a character than it will be to add anything but the smallest amount of SP to an existing one. I can guarantee you that no character traders will ever take advantage of it. The margins are too tight as it is with transfer costs at 2.5 billion ISK. No one will be adding overpriced SP to a character they think they may be selling at some point. There is a possibility of buying crap characters and removing skills to tighten them up and make them more marketable, but that needs to wait until we see the actual costs before I'll say more on it. As for farming SP for sale. That will work in the case of having a fully trained character on an acct that will be subbed anyway. Just like we do now with characters. Characters built specifically for sale essentially for free as you need to be subbed anyway to keep using the main on that acct. But those with dreams of paying for accts simply to farm are going to find out how easy it is to take a huge loss in this game when you don't think things through. So, as I see it, no big game breaking disaster. Just another option that may or may not get used very often. Like many other things that were going to kill EVE and be abused to hell, it won't happen. People are inherently lazy and can't be bothered to figure out how to abuse stuff if it isn't handed to them. What people are good at is crying wolf for no good reason. There will be this little uproar and then a month after the plan is implemented everyone will forget about it and move on to the next thing to cry about. Won't be the first time this has happened and it won't be the last. As said, and as usual in here, much ado about nothing. Mr Epeen
I'm afraid your analysis is incorrect this time Mr. Cool (at least as far as I'm concern). Eve just won't be the same anymore when this garbage hits TQ. Players WILL find a way to take full advantage of this and this game will decay to the point of having no chance for a revival. When this hits TQ, the hourglass for eve existence will finally commence.
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Marsha Mallow
2633
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 00:55:17 -
[2293] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Great post, Miss Mallow! Thanks Apologies that these are long posts, but I'd rather chuck out a few of walls of text than comment tons or argue. Explaining my stance from a personal perspective might make things clearer - just another view - but mine's close to what Rise described in the blog. There's also a comment of mine here re character traders. I can't speak for all of them but I have always monitored their comments and tried to do a fair write up.
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Marsha Mallow wrote:You have to ask, why the hell are people so resistant to a change that would spectacularly improve retention when the PCU is visibly in decline? I have a couple of questions on this: 1. Why do you think this idea would spectacularly improve retention? Personal experience. I started mid 2008 and this was my first MMO. Recommended by a colleague who I've spoken to since ingame but didn't approach upon playing - I wanted to do it myself. I'd already read tons of material. Failed the missions badly, hated them. Didn't sub. Started a mining alt, got canflipped/popped, ended up mining in a badger for learning skills (remember when these were 4.5-5m ish for the advanced ones)? So 12 hours on a Saturday mining, ho hum. Luckily I love reading and there's stacks to read. But I still didn't sub. After rolling/biomassing an alt and bbqing myself on the starter undock with an audience - which was actually the first bit of fun, I bought - get this. Tobacco. Put them in a Bantam to go fill an NPC trade buy order. In Pure Blind. Got through into EC (no idea how, didn't even have a prop mod) and BOOM! Then I subbed :)
I ended up mining as a mini career because it looked like a way to learn a basic field as an entry point but I was annoyed that the combat side seemed so difficult. So printed Halada's mining guide off, took it to work etc. A month later I was already annoyed by the slowness of SP acquisition. I got a couple of colleagues to play, they never even subbed. And these were actual gamers. But they rejected the SP system and so has everyone else I've brought in. I'd been recruited into a player group from rookie chat but loathed missions - which was what they mainly did, despite being a mining-mission corp. Actually I did once mine with a load of drunk aussies and I've never heard singing like it since.
So, foruming you find the character bazaar. As a non-gamer, I didn't have any real notion that buying an alt would constitute cheating. So I bought 3 to mine with - including Marsha. Big mistake. Their names are hilariously annoying. They had loads of SP splattered all over. One seller left a bill worth of stuff on the account and some ISK, plus I had a pool of leftover ISK from GTC sales to fund the character purchases. So I mined once for an hour with all three and hated every minute of it. Plus, the ISK ph was terrible. I have one monitor and hate multiboxing, even now. So yeh, sat there grinding my teeth thinking 'you messed up'.
My corpies were really hostile over it, both in that corp and in the next one, and I had endless lectures from people going on and on and on. Some said they'd never sold a Plex and never would, because it's cheating. One guy showed me his 100m SP 2003 alt and ranted about how he'd trained it from scratch and how hard it had been for him. Not a good idea to go on at me, because eventually I zone out and start considering the person talking. And a lot of these people were arrogant, condescending berks. They still are. Most of the people who are really, really SP fixated have acheived naff all ingame. SP is their main status symbol for doing nothing, and they ram it down the neck of newer players. Others who have acheived things don't care so much.
So anyway I started trading with my pool of ISK instead. Sold more Plex but with a view to building up a decent enough wallet that I could Plex indefinitely later. And I rationalised my original character purchase with the following: I knew that I wanted to carry on playing this game indefinitely almost immediately. So I was paying the equivalent of a backsub to CCP and another player. And btw, I made 100b very quickly and have largely played for free for the last 6 years, so my piggy bank theory did work. And my Plex purchases were all made via a credit card. I knew RL redundancy was likely - actively gamed it - so I took my settlement, then ran the CC upto its limit, and offered a settlement figure. So my huge outlay was actually free.
I've done ingame recruitment since then. Including background checks on people who have bought characters from gold sites. I've run into botters, macro users, gold buyers. I don't approve, but there's no point denying it happens, I just don't do it myself. And none of the people who inject cash into game or cheat are more successful at playing than others. The reverse in fact, because they skip over basic mechanics. I had to train all of my purchased alts into combat characters. And learn to play. The one thing I resisted was buying a wtfpwnmobile either to show off or because I'm uber, because it was obviously a bad idea. Might be because I don't have testicles the urge just isn't there. So speaking from experience, mine matches what Rise described as frustration in the first year. And now I don't give a damn about my alts, because they're at 100-170m sp. I don't even use most of them, or log them in.
I also train and trade characters as mentioned on en24. Which means I spend time in rookie chat. I've run a highsec research alliance and been in multiple corps, so I've never stopped talking to new players - which I think some have. And I read everything related to EvE voraciously and remember large portions of it.
That's a purposefully odd answer to your question ;)
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
|
valaris trinder
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 00:56:27 -
[2294] - Quote
Date of Birth: 2003-05-27 22:00
cost -ú10x 12months x12years =-ú1440 that's conservative character resale -ú200 if Im lucky (but I'll never sell) I still get a thrill when I jump into a ship for the first time please don't make my loyalty meaningless
improve the bizarre accelerate skill clock up to 30 mill for new players so 30 comes in 3 months use the extractor to remap junk skills but only on the character they came from. so new players can remap if doctrens change
instead of using skills as trade how about a tutor skill to improve interaction between old and new players with time in fleet with tutor bonuses to training
or how about a use bonus to training . eg fit the gun and use it at low level to acc skill (practice makes perfect )
and as far as new players an eve app is what we need
ide love to check markets or do exploration at lunch on my phone
make it mobile and they will come
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1396
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 01:00:18 -
[2295] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Enjoy it while you can cause this game isn't gonna be around that much longer for you to enjoy the cheap gains from this disastrous mistake made by CCP. It's like we haven't heard this exact statement a million times before. It`s like the player base did not shrink really.
It's illogical to blame the losses eve already suffered on a decision they haven't even made yet.
IMO this seems much easier to swallow than things like off grid booster alts. That is pay to win that decreases the enjoyment of the game because you need to drag an alt around while you are supposed to be having fun playing the game.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
75
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 01:09:22 -
[2296] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Enjoy it while you can cause this game isn't gonna be around that much longer for you to enjoy the cheap gains from this disastrous mistake made by CCP. It's like we haven't heard this exact statement a million times before. It`s like the player base did not shrink really. It's illogical to blame the losses eve already suffered on a decision they haven't even made yet. IMO this seems much easier to swallow than things like off grid booster alts. That is pay to win that decreases the enjoyment of the game because you need to drag an alt around while you are supposed to be having fun playing the game.
I never blamed that on this decision. This one is yet to happen and then later will blame them :) Not sure if i should even blame them. I stopped posting here as I realized that maybe it is time to let it go, maybe it is time for EVE to die. Still have quite mixed feelings about the end itself, but direction where it is heading to is going to make it happen faster than I would thought.
I just pointed out to Sibyyl that people are actually quitting and not just stating it which is visible by the numbers shrink.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6853
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 01:16:19 -
[2297] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:One guy showed me his 100m SP 2003 alt and ranted about how he'd trained it from scratch and how hard it had been for him. Not a good idea to go on at me, because eventually I zone out and start considering the person talking. And a lot of these people were arrogant, condescending berks. They still are. Most of the people who are really, really SP fixated have acheived naff all ingame. SP is their main status symbol for doing nothing, and they ram it down the neck of newer players. Others who have acheived things don't care so much. Oh dear, is that how it is... in this thread...
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
211
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 01:21:15 -
[2298] - Quote
Well I'm generally in favor of it, but this is a big reaction from the community so maybe they should shelve this for now... or introduce it in an extremely limited way with a hard cap of say 10 million skill points just to see how it works out.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
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Marsha Mallow
2633
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 01:23:00 -
[2299] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Marsha Mallow wrote:One guy showed me his 100m SP 2003 alt and ranted about how he'd trained it from scratch and how hard it had been for him. Not a good idea to go on at me, because eventually I zone out and start considering the person talking. And a lot of these people were arrogant, condescending berks. They still are. Most of the people who are really, really SP fixated have acheived naff all ingame. SP is their main status symbol for doing nothing, and they ram it down the neck of newer players. Others who have acheived things don't care so much. Oh dear, is that how it is... in this thread... Tell me how you walked backwards in the snow uphill to Jita to satisfy your ISK grind MMO epeen warrior pride and then made a video about it to inspire other nerds to really enjoy, and promote their bizarro land OCD tendencies. So I can laugh. If poverty stricken students and people from poorer backgrounds do that because they have to, they'll resent it, but they'll earn it. The rest of you are just posing for the sake of it in some sort of neckbeard contest.
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
140
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 01:25:28 -
[2300] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Enjoy it while you can cause this game isn't gonna be around that much longer for you to enjoy the cheap gains from this disastrous mistake made by CCP. It's like we haven't heard this exact statement a million times before.
And this time (the 1,000,001th time) it's real. Something like this acts as cancer. You won't notice the difference right away and in fact it would seem like the PO has skyrocketed once it hits TQ. But this burst in PO activity would only be temporary until the cancer begins to take effect. From then onward, Eve would begin to decay until it eventually becomes a corpse.
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Kilcairdin
Braevick Industries Short Bus Syndicate
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 01:41:26 -
[2301] - Quote
After a bad experience with a pay to win game I joined Eve over a year ago because it was a subscription only game. I understand the bizarre was out there, but it is a limited resource, difficult to use and in place to limit out of game corruption. What is proposed is nothing less than a significant step toward pay to win and all the problems associated with that. My expectation is that this will drive more players away from Eve than it will attract over the long term. I have no interest in moving toward a pay to win game even though this scheme could help my 25 million skill point character with skill points. Just say no. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
141
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 01:42:34 -
[2302] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Enjoy it while you can cause this game isn't gonna be around that much longer for you to enjoy the cheap gains from this disastrous mistake made by CCP. It's like we haven't heard this exact statement a million times before. It`s like the player base did not shrink really. It's illogical to blame the losses eve already suffered on a decision they haven't even made yet. IMO this seems much easier to swallow than things like off grid booster alts. That is pay to win that decreases the enjoyment of the game because you need to drag an alt around while you are supposed to be having fun playing the game.
You have to train that alt also, so it's not the same. Yes OGB is broken and has been around for years buts it's not game destroying.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
141
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 01:45:39 -
[2303] - Quote
Kilcairdin wrote:After a bad experience with a pay to win game I joined Eve over a year ago because it was a subscription only game. I understand the bizarre was out there, but it is a limited resource, difficult to use and in place to limit out of game corruption. What is proposed is nothing less than a significant step toward pay to win and all the problems associated with that. My expectation is that this will drive more players away from Eve than it will attract over the long term. I have no interest in moving toward a pay to win game even though this scheme could help my 25 million skill point character with skill points. Just say no.
I agree completely. If CCP goes ahead with this scheme, then me and my 12 accounts will disappear from eve forever. |
Karin Yang
Eye Of Insight SpaceMonkey's Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 01:49:00 -
[2304] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Kilcairdin wrote:After a bad experience with a pay to win game I joined Eve over a year ago because it was a subscription only game. I understand the bizarre was out there, but it is a limited resource, difficult to use and in place to limit out of game corruption. What is proposed is nothing less than a significant step toward pay to win and all the problems associated with that. My expectation is that this will drive more players away from Eve than it will attract over the long term. I have no interest in moving toward a pay to win game even though this scheme could help my 25 million skill point character with skill points. Just say no. I agree completely. If CCP goes ahead with this scheme, then me and my 12 accounts will disappear from eve forever. I think that encouraging people to play a game with 12 accounts is not the right thing to do. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6853
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 01:49:34 -
[2305] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:You need a crowd to validate your ego and stroke you when someone snaps back. I don't. And I know exactly how to rile people with it. Is that how it is?
Actually I validate myself with the SP count of my alts which don't train anymore.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6853
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 01:51:27 -
[2306] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:And this time (the 1,000,001th time) it's real. Something like this acts as cancer. You won't notice the difference right away and in fact it would seem like the PCU has skyrocketed once it hits TQ. But this burst in PCU activity would only be temporary until the cancer begins to take effect. From then onward, Eve would begin to decay until it eventually becomes a corpse. Quite a story to tell to those who came after. Make sure you screenshot your post for the children who will grow up post-EVE
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
158
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 01:59:24 -
[2307] - Quote
Titus Cole Dooley wrote:Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:Titus Cole Dooley wrote:If this makes it to TQ im done. My time in EVE will have been wasted. What about the cool things you saw? The people you met? The friends you made? The things you experienced? The wanderlust of exploring space! I know people jokingly call this game Skill Queues Online, but that's ridiculous! Now that the end of the skill queue tirany is at an end, we can't just throw our arms and quit! My EVE friends and I will all go play Farm Sim 2015 if this makes it to TQ. I will not support CCP in this "new player experience" trash that is making the game too easy. At this rate new players will start out with 40 mil SP and 10 bil isk. CCP is forgetting what got them here. Some people like hard games, it sets us apart from other gamers.
Yeah, some people like hard games and let's not make this game too easy. Otherwise we'll go play Farming Sim 2015 and then 2016. We're hardcore bro. We don't use autopilot for our tractors. Nor do we allow ourselves to suckle from the teet of Silage, which we know is just too OP for making dolla dolla in Farming Sim.
Yeah, I dig on Farming Sim too. You ever look for neutrals when you go into another field? Or wish asteroid belts needed to be cultivated like a corn field? I don't like how it assumes my character just knows how to pilot the biggest tractors and combines in the game just because I can afford to buy them. Farming sim should force me to train something. But yeah. |
thebarry
Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 01:59:57 -
[2308] - Quote
Why are all these nerds talking about pay2win? You can buy characters right now through the bazaar, if that's ok then whytf isn't buying sp ok too? I have 20m I'd happily sell off...I think this is a fine idea. |
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 02:01:01 -
[2309] - Quote
This would make disposable characters which are reasonably proficient at some specialized thing-mining, ganking, maybe hauling. It's not something I'd do right away.
Lots of options. Set up several accounts and train all the pilots on them, funnel all the skills into one, or use it as a really inefficient late-game respec.
It's p2w. The only time you want to do that is if you want to pretty much admit EVE is dying, cause p2w games have this habit of not lasting 10+ years.
A signature :o
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Marsha Mallow
2634
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 02:03:33 -
[2310] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Actually I validate myself with the SP count of my alts which don't train anymore. When you recycle those and sod off to another game where you can sit for over a decade whinging and griping - can I have your SP?
I always really enjoyed the Book of Revelation tbh, but esoteric writing isn't for everyone.
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
|
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thebarry
Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 02:04:23 -
[2311] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Kilcairdin wrote:After a bad experience with a pay to win game I joined Eve over a year ago because it was a subscription only game. I understand the bizarre was out there, but it is a limited resource, difficult to use and in place to limit out of game corruption. What is proposed is nothing less than a significant step toward pay to win and all the problems associated with that. My expectation is that this will drive more players away from Eve than it will attract over the long term. I have no interest in moving toward a pay to win game even though this scheme could help my 25 million skill point character with skill points. Just say no. I agree completely. If CCP goes ahead with this scheme, then me and my 12 accounts will disappear from eve forever.
I'll have to add 12 accounts if this goes through, sup? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6854
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 02:11:21 -
[2312] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Actually I validate myself with the SP count of my alts which don't train anymore. When you recycle those and sod off to another game where you can sit for over a decade whinging and griping - can I have your SP? I always really enjoyed the Book of Revelation tbh, but esoteric writing isn't for everyone. I actually intend to give SP to Imperium newbies.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
142
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 02:16:11 -
[2313] - Quote
Joseph Dewald wrote:So what I'm hearing is that training is now almost worthless and instead I should be grinding for isk? Not a fan of this idea. If you really want to implement some sort of respec idea, make it so that you can't sell the sp and can only apply them to your own character.
Exactly what I thought this was at first until I went back for another re read. To my dumbfounded horror, it was the worst idea CCP has ever devised in the history of eve.
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Marsha Mallow
2635
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 02:19:02 -
[2314] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:I actually intend to give SP to Imperium newbies. That's a disgusting sentiment. I feel personally violated that you even had the cheek to try to pretend that you're a likeable goonnoobscrub with anything relevant to contribute. My next poop will be named after you. Might post it through my annoying neighbours door with a fatbee label on and then pretend to be sympathetic and outraged. Or not, seems a lot of effort.
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
142
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 02:20:26 -
[2315] - Quote
thebarry wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Kilcairdin wrote:After a bad experience with a pay to win game I joined Eve over a year ago because it was a subscription only game. I understand the bizarre was out there, but it is a limited resource, difficult to use and in place to limit out of game corruption. What is proposed is nothing less than a significant step toward pay to win and all the problems associated with that. My expectation is that this will drive more players away from Eve than it will attract over the long term. I have no interest in moving toward a pay to win game even though this scheme could help my 25 million skill point character with skill points. Just say no. I agree completely. If CCP goes ahead with this scheme, then me and my 12 accounts will disappear from eve forever. I'll have to add 12 accounts if this goes through, sup?
Then you and the 100 others that are left can have fun roaming null in Titans with no fear reprisal.
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Marsha Mallow
2635
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 02:23:01 -
[2316] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Then you and the 100 others that are left can have fun roaming null in Titans with no fear reprisal. You can't even post on your main, you tit. Why should anyone pay the slightest bit of attention to someone who sperges with a teacosy on their head as some sort of clever disguise?
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
|
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
213
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 02:27:32 -
[2317] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Marsha Mallow wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Actually I validate myself with the SP count of my alts which don't train anymore. When you recycle those and sod off to another game where you can sit for over a decade whinging and griping - can I have your SP? I always really enjoyed the Book of Revelation tbh, but esoteric writing isn't for everyone. I actually intend to give SP to Imperium newbies.
If you do that eve will die. They will miss out on the woooh 3 weeks until I can fly a shitfit t1 frigate feeling and immediately rage quit the game.
don't say you haven't been warned
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
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Brometheus Down
Creative Assembly
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 02:30:06 -
[2318] - Quote
I think this is a great idea for player retention in general, thumbs up for that.
Two points of contention for me:
A) if such I system were ever implemented I am STRONGLY opposed to penalizing older players for obvious reasons. You guys may want to keep new players in the game, that's great, but remember who has been keeping you guys going for all these years. If new bros get 500,000 SP for their troubles so to should vets
B) Rise mentioned how he hated having to deal with the name and reputation of players purchased on the Bazaar but didn't take this any further...or did I miss something? Let us change the name of purchased players, for the love of the divine!...this, more than any 'wasted SP', is the dominant source of contempt when 'living' with a purchased characters. I'd much rather live with a couple million wasted SP if I felt an actual connection of mine own to the purchased character.
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Alucard Lugosi
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 02:33:22 -
[2319] - Quote
Another new and interesting way to try to get rid of the few remaining players left playing this game!
Hats off to CCP RISE, this is probably the most dumb idea ever written down.
I salute the CCP team for constantly striving to out do each other in the generation of stupid ideas.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 02:33:30 -
[2320] - Quote
Karin Yang wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Kilcairdin wrote:After a bad experience with a pay to win game I joined Eve over a year ago because it was a subscription only game. I understand the bizarre was out there, but it is a limited resource, difficult to use and in place to limit out of game corruption. What is proposed is nothing less than a significant step toward pay to win and all the problems associated with that. My expectation is that this will drive more players away from Eve than it will attract over the long term. I have no interest in moving toward a pay to win game even though this scheme could help my 25 million skill point character with skill points. Just say no. I agree completely. If CCP goes ahead with this scheme, then me and my 12 accounts will disappear from eve forever. I think that encouraging people to play a game with 12 accounts is not the right thing to do.
I'm not, that's just me cause I like multi-boxing and having multiple options in case I make a mistake in my training. I've trained all my chars from the ground up, no short cuts. It was one of the greatest feature I liked about eve because if gave the alluring experience of watching your characters grow and mature. With the greatest feature of eve made into comedy, the game is starting to feel fake.
|
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Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
213
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 02:35:23 -
[2321] - Quote
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3oz450/this_new_thingit_is_bad/
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
145
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 02:36:53 -
[2322] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Then you and the 100 others that are left can have fun roaming null in Titans with no fear reprisal. You can't even post on your main, you tit. Why should anyone pay the slightest bit of attention to someone who sperges with a teacosy on their head as some sort of clever disguise?
THIS is one of my mains, you dimwit. Don't post anything like you know something that you don't.
It's sometimes better to just keep silent instead of posting rubbish and making yourself look stupid.
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Karin Yang
Eye Of Insight SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 02:49:05 -
[2323] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Karin Yang wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Kilcairdin wrote:After a bad experience with a pay to win game I joined Eve over a year ago because it was a subscription only game. I understand the bizarre was out there, but it is a limited resource, difficult to use and in place to limit out of game corruption. What is proposed is nothing less than a significant step toward pay to win and all the problems associated with that. My expectation is that this will drive more players away from Eve than it will attract over the long term. I have no interest in moving toward a pay to win game even though this scheme could help my 25 million skill point character with skill points. Just say no. I agree completely. If CCP goes ahead with this scheme, then me and my 12 accounts will disappear from eve forever. I think that encouraging people to play a game with 12 accounts is not the right thing to do. I'm not, that's just me cause I like multi-boxing and having multiple options in case I make a mistake in my training. I've trained all my chars from the ground up, no short cuts. It was one of the greatest feature I liked about eve because if gave the alluring experience of watching your characters grow and mature. With the greatest feature of eve made into comedy, the game is starting to feel fake. I mean that the current training system is encouraging people to have multiple accounts, because people cannot play interesting features of this game well with one account alone and also because people can gain huge benefits from this. People are kept from good designs because of lacking of SP. So they have only have two choice, have multiple accounts, or waits months and years. But most of them choose to quit. |
Morihei Akachi
Nishida Corporation
191
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 02:50:03 -
[2324] - Quote
Looking back through bits of this thread and the ones at /r/eve, I get the impression that thereGÇÖs this huge disconnect between the advocates and the opponents of this idea. IGÇÖll confess that I genuinely donGÇÖt understand what is meant to be so attractive about skipping the training for a battleshipGÇöto take RiseGÇÖs example from his blogGÇöand just buying a character. My sense is that GÇ£characterGÇ¥ means no more than GÇ£chess pieceGÇ¥ in that scenario. The way you swap a pawn out for a queen the moment the opportunity presents itself.
Pawns, of course, don't have histories. They donGÇÖt make mistakes and learn from them, they donGÇÖt have biographies one could tell. TheyGÇÖre just pieces on a board. Weapons to be used against an opponent. If a weapon is not good enough, you swap it out for a better one. IGÇÖm trying to grasp what I find so depressing about this approach, and it has to do with this notion of treating a character merely as a tool that you buy or sell or dismantle for parts / skill points. History, story, narrative within the world we call New Eden becomes completely superfluous at that moment. The only goal is pawning the other guy and total control over how that can be made to happen. DoesnGÇÖt Rise say that that is meant to be GÇ£EveGÇÖs core designGÇ¥: GÇ£player control above all elseGÇ¥? If that is true, there should be no constraints at all. Instant god-mode for all. Surely thatGÇÖs the logic of this position.
But I think Rise is wrong: GÇ£player control above all elseGÇ¥ is not the core design of Eve. I donGÇÖt think anyone (apart from him, apparently) thinks this. The challenge of Eve lies in there not being total control, in there being barriers and hindrances that force you to take a different path from the one you would have taken at first glance if all roads had lain open. I see considerable value in that. It makes Eve into a world rather than just another virtual arena where the instant gratification crowd can live out its monotonous domination fantasies. (Perhaps that was a little uncharitable. But I really donGÇÖt get it.)
Hilmar tells the storyGÇöa little too often, maybeGÇöabout a mining cruiser back in the day. YouGÇÖve probably heard this. HeGÇÖs borrowed it from someone else in order to go mining and it gets blown up. HeGÇÖs unhappy, because his character doesnGÇÖt have the ISK to replace it. And then he thinks, hey, IGÇÖm the CEO of CCP, I could just wave a magic wand and make a cruiser, right? But he doesnGÇÖt. He mines for a whole week to get the cash together to buy a new cruiser on the market. Why? Because short-cutting the process would have entailed the admission that none of it was real.
That was the original vision of New Eden. A world where you canGÇÖt just dev hack or buy your way out of your biography. Because itGÇÖs real.
People are going to disagree with this violently and IGÇÖm fine with that. This is just my take on it, and an attempt to clarify for myself a little better why I find the idea of buying and selling a characterGÇÖs past so disheartening.
"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and donGÇÖt belong in Eve Online. (And as for GÇ£scopedGÇ¥ GǪ)
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Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 03:07:15 -
[2325] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Kilcairdin wrote:After a bad experience with a pay to win game I joined Eve over a year ago because it was a subscription only game. I understand the bizarre was out there, but it is a limited resource, difficult to use and in place to limit out of game corruption. What is proposed is nothing less than a significant step toward pay to win and all the problems associated with that. My expectation is that this will drive more players away from Eve than it will attract over the long term. I have no interest in moving toward a pay to win game even though this scheme could help my 25 million skill point character with skill points. Just say no. I agree completely. If CCP goes ahead with this scheme, then me and my 12 accounts will disappear from eve forever.
Good riddance to you. People like you need to quit. Contract all your stuff to me and don't let the door hit you on the way out. |
Marsha Mallow
2635
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 03:13:34 -
[2326] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:THIS is one of my mains, you dimwit. Don't post anything like you know something that you don't.
It's sometimes better to just keep silent instead of posting rubbish and making yourself look stupid. Sometimes it's better to speak and point out that a lot of the noise is coming from people who are still terrified of this game. I've already backchecked your posting history and cross-referenced your alts, and your killboards. The guy who recruited me to this game did it because I'm a shark, and I wardecced his department for 5 IRL years. Honourably. Think it was meant to be a distraction.
You're clutching at this SP topic desperately because you're still scared to lose a pixel spaceship, or endure a humiliating meta campaign where you get viciously called out and abused in an online setting.
Why don't you drop that, and just do it anyway? It's nothing personal, just business.
What are they going to do other than name call to punish you? There are other people here who will step in to curb gross abuse. Scorn and sarcasm work both ways.
So what reasons are there left for whinging about not playing, and deliberately promoting mechanics that only attract autistic masochists to sub, from a subscribed playerbase? Are you actually going to make signs saying 'GO AWAY HUMANS, FOR WE ARE NOT' or wat?
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
|
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1135
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 03:26:10 -
[2327] - Quote
Morihei Akachi wrote:
That was the original vision of New Eden. A world where you canGÇÖt just dev hack or buy your way out of your biography. Because itGÇÖs real.
People are going to disagree with this violently and IGÇÖm fine with that. This is just my take on it, and an attempt to clarify for myself a little better why I find the idea of buying and selling a characterGÇÖs past so disheartening.
Great points, though I omitted most of it.
I'd add that the learning process was/is a 'hook'. It helps define end goals and mistakes, and gives a player a sense of satisfaction when the goal is achieved. In turn, the time spent feels like an investment you have made in your own, real, character. Your money, your time, your character, your creation. It's all important to the mental process when you decide to keep that account subbed. IMO, if you want long term players, you need long term end game goals. The current 'frigates online' state of EVE is already a short train with no real investment. And hasn't that already proven that it doesn't improve player base? Pretty sure it correlates directly with the decline of EVE player base.
If 1,000 newbs buy skill points and still lose their cruisers in pitiful fireballs, they'll just be 1,000 frustrated newbs. Skill points won't make them 'better', nor will it make the game more fun. Fun is strictly a state of mind. But whether they quit or stay, they're going to devalue my character in the process.
|
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
297
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 03:36:19 -
[2328] - Quote
Morihei Akachi wrote: Hilmar tells the storyGÇöa little too often, maybeGÇöabout a mining cruiser back in the day. YouGÇÖve probably heard this. HeGÇÖs borrowed it from someone else in order to go mining and it gets blown up. HeGÇÖs unhappy, because his character doesnGÇÖt have the ISK to replace it. And then he thinks, hey, IGÇÖm the CEO of CCP, I could just wave a magic wand and make a cruiser, right? But he doesnGÇÖt. He mines for a whole week to get the cash together to buy a new cruiser on the market. Why? Because short-cutting the process would have entailed the admission that none of it was real.
That was the original vision of New Eden. A world where you canGÇÖt just dev hack or buy your way out of your biography. Because itGÇÖs real.
Quoted for emphasis. I think this is the main issue: short-cutting. As for character transfers: not the same as just selling skill points to others. As Rise pointed out: kil2 had a negative history when he bought the character. Rise certainly got the character skills he wanted, but all the baggage with that character came along for the ride (one reason why, as much as it torments me to say it, renaming characters is a bad idea).
With the SP transfers, you can simply remake a character from another character without the mistakes and without any history. That is certainly short-cutting.
However, I think in terms of keeping true with the story behind the game and effectiveness: it would be better if the skills themselves could be packaged and transferred, not simply the SP. The transfer of SP by itself seems too arbitrary.
(and no, being a long time role player, I don't believe attributes should ever be removed - it is simply part of who you are) |
Karin Yang
Eye Of Insight SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 03:36:21 -
[2329] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Morihei Akachi wrote:
That was the original vision of New Eden. A world where you canGÇÖt just dev hack or buy your way out of your biography. Because itGÇÖs real.
People are going to disagree with this violently and IGÇÖm fine with that. This is just my take on it, and an attempt to clarify for myself a little better why I find the idea of buying and selling a characterGÇÖs past so disheartening.
Great points, though I omitted most of it. I'd add that the learning process was/is a 'hook'. It helps define end goals and mistakes, and gives a player a sense of satisfaction when the goal is achieved. In turn, the time spent feels like an investment you have made in your own, real, character. Your money, your time, your character, your creation. It's all important to the mental process when you decide to keep that account subbed. IMO, if you want long term players, you need long term end game goals. The current 'frigates online' state of EVE is already a short train with no real investment. And hasn't that already proven that it doesn't improve player base? Pretty sure it correlates directly with the decline of EVE player base. If 1,000 newbs buy skill points and still lose their cruisers in pitiful fireballs, they'll just be 1,000 frustrated newbs. Skill points won't make them 'better', nor will it make the game more fun. Fun is strictly a state of mind. But whether they quit or stay, they're going to devalue my character in the process. Subscribe and then dock in station doing nothing seems a huge challenge for you towards your goal? It is devalued because what you did is not valuable at all. It's not reasonable that someone is more successful only because he is older. BTW, it needs trillions of ISK to max skill your character, I don't see you have accomplished that goal after this change. |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
168
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 03:43:38 -
[2330] - Quote
Free to play is not the issue. EVE is actually free to play. You may play for free with a 30-day period of limited access which you can simply keep doing and just make a new account.
You can use that to inherit money from one to another until such time you can pay for a plex, and after a while, you may be able to to plex one account, it is not that hard. Many people have been playing for a long time without paying for it.
Pay for advantage is also not a problem while the game keeps a strong position on not backing down its complexity to satisfy supra-sub payers. I would not care if you could pay to receive a ship, to receive a package of skill to fly a capital ship. Provided that it is a given defined objective, that does not change "everything".
The Bazaar is a bad design created to make a compromise on black market of accounts, which leads to worse problems. I can live with that, because with the Bazaar, you wont be buying a character each week, and even if you did, it would be counterproductive because you would pay twice for the same portion. I mean: You buy today a Battle cruiser pilot, tomorrow you wont buy a Battleship pilot for a full char price just to enhance a couple days training. You just wait to train battleship.
In a game with skill pills, you may buy the Battlecruiser pilot, and buy a pill for battleship, and buy a pill for gunnery, and buy a pill for missels, and so on and so forth, then you have all the skills but no clue on how they work. Then when a lot of people is there with all that gear and no clue, they start demanding a lot, because they cant understand why having all the skills is not enough, they paid to have power, and all that payment didnt gave them power, so they will be complaining about something that only remove complex mechanics can solve, a problem created by giving up skills for money.
You think that Blizzard removed stats, gears, loot complexity, boss mechanics, and so on to make the game more fun ? That is what they say. That is a code word to "we want people feeling that their hard bought skills were not a waste of money and they actually need to learn to play and enjoy the gamplay they can do achieving the results they want to, without needing to endure what they dont want to, first reason they had paid to bypass in the first place".
If CCP ensures a even rise on complexity as medium of counter balancing the skill fest, there is no problem. But it is counterproductive to their own business to offer a product that does not meet the perception of reward. Therefore, anyone wanting to buy skills to get faster to a potential power is doing so to fast achieve a given success, and therefore tie the payment to the ease of access of such success. So you cannot expect skill sales to not change the difficult of conquering content. That is just wishful thinking.
That is way there is only one way from there: Dumb down content, remove of obstacles, compulsory progress, NPC helping hand, Socialist Loot distribution, WoWnization.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
145
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 03:59:23 -
[2331] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Kilcairdin wrote:After a bad experience with a pay to win game I joined Eve over a year ago because it was a subscription only game. I understand the bizarre was out there, but it is a limited resource, difficult to use and in place to limit out of game corruption. What is proposed is nothing less than a significant step toward pay to win and all the problems associated with that. My expectation is that this will drive more players away from Eve than it will attract over the long term. I have no interest in moving toward a pay to win game even though this scheme could help my 25 million skill point character with skill points. Just say no. I agree completely. If CCP goes ahead with this scheme, then me and my 12 accounts will disappear from eve forever. Good riddance to you. People like you need to quit. Contract all your stuff to me and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
I don't like you either douchebag. The only thing I'll contract to you is my frozen corpse. I'll leave it for you in Dodixie. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 04:02:08 -
[2332] - Quote
Morihei Akachi wrote:Looking back through bits of this thread and the ones at /r/eve, I get the impression that thereGÇÖs this huge disconnect between the advocates and the opponents of this idea. IGÇÖll confess that I genuinely donGÇÖt understand what is meant to be so attractive about skipping the training for a battleshipGÇöto take RiseGÇÖs example from his blogGÇöand just buying a character. My sense is that GÇ£characterGÇ¥ means no more than GÇ£chess pieceGÇ¥ in that scenario. The way you swap a pawn out for a queen the moment the opportunity presents itself.
Pawns, of course, don't have histories. They donGÇÖt make mistakes and learn from them, they donGÇÖt have biographies one could tell. TheyGÇÖre just pieces on a board. Weapons to be used against an opponent. If a weapon is not good enough, you swap it out for a better one. IGÇÖm trying to grasp what I find so depressing about this approach, and it has to do with this notion of treating a character merely as a tool that you buy or sell or dismantle for parts / skill points. History, story, narrative within the world we call New Eden becomes completely superfluous at that moment. The only goal is pawning the other guy and total control over how that can be made to happen. DoesnGÇÖt Rise say that that is meant to be GÇ£EveGÇÖs core designGÇ¥: GÇ£player control above all elseGÇ¥? If that is true, there should be no constraints at all. Instant god-mode for all. Surely thatGÇÖs the logic of this position.
But I think Rise is wrong: GÇ£player control above all elseGÇ¥ is not the core design of Eve. I donGÇÖt think anyone (apart from him, apparently) thinks this. The challenge of Eve lies in there not being total control, in there being barriers and hindrances that force you to take a different path from the one you would have taken at first glance if all roads had lain open. I see considerable value in that. It makes Eve into a world rather than just another virtual arena where the instant gratification crowd can live out its monotonous domination fantasies. (Perhaps that was a little uncharitable. But I really donGÇÖt get it.)
Hilmar tells the storyGÇöa little too often, maybeGÇöabout a mining cruiser back in the day. YouGÇÖve probably heard this. HeGÇÖs borrowed it from someone else in order to go mining and it gets blown up. HeGÇÖs unhappy, because his character doesnGÇÖt have the ISK to replace it. And then he thinks, hey, IGÇÖm the CEO of CCP, I could just wave a magic wand and make a cruiser, right? But he doesnGÇÖt. He mines for a whole week to get the cash together to buy a new cruiser on the market. Why? Because short-cutting the process would have entailed the admission that none of it was real.
That was the original vision of New Eden. A world where you canGÇÖt just dev hack or buy your way out of your biography. Because itGÇÖs real.
People are going to disagree with this violently and IGÇÖm fine with that. This is just my take on it, and an attempt to clarify for myself a little better why I find the idea of buying and selling a characterGÇÖs past so disheartening. You sum it up very eloquently. Thankyou. |
Tanner Twaggs
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
5821
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 04:06:35 -
[2333] - Quote
There is a easy way to fix this
Add character Name changes into the game, And encourage people Buy toons
Dont make the game pay to win buy letting people Buy sp.
There is people who have sunk Over a decade on a silly video game for it all to go to waste b/c of some guy wants to "Win" the game,
DONT MAKE EVE LIKE EVER OTHER MMO
If this goes through, Im done with the game. o7 fly safe
At what point do you just stop and say, Did i just do that
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Amateratsu
The Pegasus Project
84
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 04:13:16 -
[2334] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
how will it obsolete the training system? without the training system where are you going to get the SP to buy/sell? especially when this new system deletes up to 90% of the SP extracted and sold.
In the Dev Blog he said 70 characters a day being sold / transfered... 70 characters at an avg 50m sp = 3.5 billion sp..
Now you don't have to sell the character, just extract all your unwanted sp and put it on the market for sale. If this change happens, there will be 1,000's of players who will extract unwanted and even wanted skills just to make some isk.
That will translate to 100's of billions of sp points on the market availlable to buy.
it won't completely kill the training system, but it will do enough damage to make it an optional excercise.
no longer will you have to spend years training skills, you will be able to buy whatever skills you want instantly.
instant gratification that will quickly ware off and become boring as no effort was required to obtain those shiny new skills.
and for all those players who have had to spend years training their skills, its a kick in the teeth and a F***k Y*u.
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Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
168
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 04:40:15 -
[2335] - Quote
People talk about pay to win as it has never happened that one group without a single fighter or industrial regular crew have amassed a fortune and a huge sov area by just paying off others to do their dirty and clean work and in order to provide them things making people forever deppend on them instead of playing their own things and sustaining their losses.
Pay to win this game is since it exists, and pay to win is not a problem.
The problem is the price to win get low and the what to win becomes easly obtainable.
Pay to win, every MMO is.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC 404 Alliance Not Found
209
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 05:00:34 -
[2336] - Quote
So this is the beginning of the End
Pay to Win is the death knell of the Sandbox. |
Chrome Veinss
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 05:22:35 -
[2337] - Quote
thebarry wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Kilcairdin wrote:After a bad experience with a pay to win game I joined Eve over a year ago because it was a subscription only game. I understand the bizarre was out there, but it is a limited resource, difficult to use and in place to limit out of game corruption. What is proposed is nothing less than a significant step toward pay to win and all the problems associated with that. My expectation is that this will drive more players away from Eve than it will attract over the long term. I have no interest in moving toward a pay to win game even though this scheme could help my 25 million skill point character with skill points. Just say no. I agree completely. If CCP goes ahead with this scheme, then me and my 12 accounts will disappear from eve forever. I'll have to add 12 accounts if this goes through, sup?
I get the feeling that people with 12 accounts leaving will be extremely healthy for the game, go ahead please |
Chrome Veinss
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 05:30:03 -
[2338] - Quote
Karin Yang wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Karin Yang wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Kilcairdin wrote:After a bad experience with a pay to win game I joined Eve over a year ago because it was a subscription only game. I understand the bizarre was out there, but it is a limited resource, difficult to use and in place to limit out of game corruption. What is proposed is nothing less than a significant step toward pay to win and all the problems associated with that. My expectation is that this will drive more players away from Eve than it will attract over the long term. I have no interest in moving toward a pay to win game even though this scheme could help my 25 million skill point character with skill points. Just say no. I agree completely. If CCP goes ahead with this scheme, then me and my 12 accounts will disappear from eve forever. I think that encouraging people to play a game with 12 accounts is not the right thing to do. I'm not, that's just me cause I like multi-boxing and having multiple options in case I make a mistake in my training. I've trained all my chars from the ground up, no short cuts. It was one of the greatest feature I liked about eve because if gave the alluring experience of watching your characters grow and mature. With the greatest feature of eve made into comedy, the game is starting to feel fake. I mean that the current training system is encouraging people to have multiple accounts, because people cannot play interesting features of this game well with one account alone and also because people can gain huge benefits from this. People are kept from good designs because of lacking of SP. So they have only have two choice, have multiple accounts, or waits months and years. But most of them choose to quit. Edit: You have 12 accounts, so I believe you actually do not know the hard feelings of those normal players (with one account) when they find they are interested in both mining and combat, or sth else. For you, you can just create the 13rd account if you happened to be interested in sth, but that's not the way the game is designed. Game should be enjoyable even with one account.
This is it. The single most urgent thing that needs to get fixed in Eve: changing the gameplay so that having a bunch of accounts becomes more annoying and less efficient than interacting with real life human people and collaborating to do all those things people get multiple accounts for.
|
Tessa Lee
Lone Rangers Short Bus Syndicate
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 05:45:24 -
[2339] - Quote
Read the entire blog and got to thinking. Read enough comments to stop thinking.
Luckily I'm a tad bored and out of beer so I'll leave these thoughts for posterity.
PLEX are $20 As of today cheapest listing in game is over 1.2B ISK A year ago they were 800M ISK When they were first introduced they were about 400M ISK if I recall correctly
This trend of PLEX inflation of ISK shows no signs of stopping and early adopters in trading PLEX are probably trillionaires in game by now. This also means any new player with $20 they are willing to part with can easily acquire over 1B ISK before they get their first frigate or have any skills in the game SP or otherwise. This has to be a huge financial success for CCP and ironically unlike other micro-transaction pay-to-win models it doesn't really work that way. Newbies are newbies even if they spend their life savings on PLEX they will just lose it all quickly due to lack of SP and lack of experience. ISK doesn't make you good at EVE and never will. Now I'm not even going to get started on Aurum or what I consider the Hello Kitty trinket market rammed into EVE like a prison gang ****. However this latest cash cow concept on the block to drive PLEX sales up even further seems somewhat legit in comparison. Here's why:
Transneural Skill Extractor can be purchases with Aurum or ISK and is analogous to PLEX service fee. I interpret that as the price per item will be roughly equivalent to 1 PLEX regardless of Aurum or ISK use with the indirect goal of people buying PLEX to get the item one way or another. 500,000 SP and this item can create a Transneural Skill Packet which can also be sold on market. Presumably they can also be contracted, traded, lost in ship explosions, scammed, etc like PLEX or any other item. A Transneural Skill Packet can be consumed by a pilot to inject unallocated skill points with a penalty based on the amount of skill points up to the >80M SP level getting a mere 10% of the 500K used to create the item.
I'm not sure if that last bit is evil, genius, or both on CCP's part so I'll leave it for now. With those diminishing returns however it's obviously not particularly viable to use these items to gain SP after the 50M mark if they keep those current numbers. Math Time! Theoretically to get from 0 to 50M SP you need 10 skill packs for the first 5M and 112.5 to get the next 45M. Let's assume since characters don't start with 0 SP we can round this down to 122 total. We can assume anyone pouring 500K chunks of their SP and a PLEX into these are not doing it for charity and that a skill pack will likely cost at least twice whatever PLEX are selling for on the market assuming 500K SP aren't considerably more valuable than a PLEX which they probably are. That's an absolute bare minimum of 244 PLEX to "buy" a good pilot using this system on day 1 of subscribing as we all know 50M skill points well placed can do anything you want to in game unless what you want to do is everything. So the final tally? $4,480 or about 277B ISK at current PLEX prices. The reality is it will likely cost a whole lot more than that even for this example as 500K SP is worth more than 1 PLEX to most pilots and PLEX sales will continue to inflate ISK as mentioned previously.
Now the old salty vets out there might be complaining that they can't buy skills and had to do skill training uphill in the snow both ways with learning skills and all that time and the system is unfair and boohoo I'm going to go gank some high sec pilots out of spite until I feel superior again. As one of those pilots with over 125M SP who will never be able to get any real SP benefit from such a system I'd just like to say shut up. We didn't keep playing this game for years (some of us over a decade) because we thought frigates, cruisers, and battleships were all you ever need and no new players or new content or new changes should be introduced. Is CCP catering to new players and their corporate bank account? Sure seems like it. Does this make the game worse for those of us that have every skill in the game to 4 or 5 already? No. If anything it's an opportunity to trade in a few inches of your e-peen for a few hundred billion ISK. I mean I'm pretty sure I could part with Exhumers 5 and some other things I trained over 5 years ago and still sleep at night. If you think changes to a game you've dedicated entirely too much time, money, and energy on is bad because they are doing things to keep it profitable and retain or attract new players you officially earn a hypocrite award. Wear it proudly because the alternative is you're an idiot for thinking your SP matters when CPP can shut down the servers any time they please. It's a game run by a business for profit. Get over it.
Hey wait a minute! What about those mid range pilots in the 50M to less than 100M ranges? Good news, unlike new players who can only benefit from this system by buying PLEX to get SP or old players who can only benefit by cutting off a finger to pick up a super or two you are in the ideal range to actually use this as a respec. At the mid ranges you could actually sell down and buy up to switch races, or go from indy to PVP, or other major changes that would otherwise take over a year or a lot of ISK. This is because you may have noticed that selling down from mid range back to well below 50M skill points is all well and good but buying back up above 50M is inefficient and you'd be correct. In order to use this ability you'd have to make a sacrifice. You'd never be able to get back to where you were after a respec but you would retain the ability to respec again over time. I'd say this is a good sacrifice assuming your goal is to have fun trying out different aspects of EVE and pocket some ISK on the side. If your aspirations are to become an old salty vet, sorry.
I'm just going to leave this right here ... |
Dave Stark
7568
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 05:49:19 -
[2340] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:That is not quite what I was getting at. I'm talking about something nobody has thought of yet that has a downside. Do you think that is zero?
if some one can break the game by adding sp to a character, the thing we all do daily, then fair play to them. I'm getting the impression you think it is zero.
no. but very low as to i'll be surprised if anyone breaks eve if this change happens. |
|
Dave Stark
7568
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 05:54:21 -
[2341] - Quote
Amateratsu wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
how will it obsolete the training system? without the training system where are you going to get the SP to buy/sell? especially when this new system deletes up to 90% of the SP extracted and sold.
In the Dev Blog he said 70 characters a day being sold / transfered... 70 characters at an avg 50m sp = 3.5 billion sp.. Now you don't have to sell the character, just extract all your unwanted sp and put it on the market for sale. If this change happens, there will be 1,000's of players who will extract unwanted and even wanted skills just to make some isk. That will translate to 100's of billions of sp points on the market availlable to buy. it won't completely kill the training system, but it will do enough damage to make it an optional excercise. no longer will you have to spend years training skills, you will be able to buy whatever skills you want instantly. instant gratification that will quickly ware off and become boring as no effort was required to obtain those shiny new skills. and for all those players who have had to spend years training their skills, its a kick in the teeth and a F***k Y*u.
as i've also pointed out. for a player over 80m sp, like myself, one month's sp is going to be 12bn isk. to buy SP at the same rate i earn it naturally is 1.33333 skill packets per day. thats' 400m/day.
not to mention 100s of billions of SP on the market translates to merely a few billion because of the hilarious 90% diminishing returns at high SP.
now lets give 100m sp to all the deep pocketers. with only 1bn isn of sp out there by your estimate only 100 people of the thousands playing will be able to purchase all this surplus.
|
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2785
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 05:54:25 -
[2342] - Quote
Every idiot in here saying this is Pay to Win should have your account outright deleted until you've proven yourself above the average Fox News Viewer.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
126
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 06:07:43 -
[2343] - Quote
Driving home from work today thinking about how moronic this whole thing is and a song came on that really drove the point home about this helping new players.
To quote some of the lyrics "when everything is handed to you it is only worth the time put in." If you can't grasp what that means, think about a game many of you have likely experienced, League of Legends. Why do players take ranked so serious? Because of the time and effort they have put in for the hopes of future rewards(higher rank). Now why do those same exact players not take normal games serious at all? No rewards, no consequences from one game to the next. Each game is meant for fun and it's meaningless once it's over.
Now we have people wanting this new feature implemented into EVE "for the new players," or rather for their selfish wants and desires. When we all joined we were amazed at the world around us. We may have seen a big ship being announced (CW/RMR anyone?) or heard of a large battle and wanted to be a part of it. We learned quickly learned that it was going to take time and based on the fact that we are all here discussing this I can assume we all set our goals and went headlong for it. We accepted it was going to take time because everyone was going to have to put in that same time and effort to obtain it.
The new generation of EVE players, or should I say MOBA/WOW players stopping by for a visit, expect to instantly reach their goals upon entry and don't see value in the journey. They are the type that do not belong in this game, and is a mentality that sadly needs to be bled from the gaming community as a whole. I look around and as time goes on every game is quickly becoming a copy paste of the same F2P-P2W model because the selfish lot of players jump from game to game expecting the same ease of entry and rewards for little effort gameplay. The reason they so easily jump from game to game you may ask? Because they have no skin in the game, they came, they saw, they conquered in a short amount of time and left. No game can survive if those same fair-weather players are the ones being allowed to decide the direction of a game. They won't be around long enough to see the outcome.
I've said my peace, twice now. I'm sure there will be those who think it's my kind that don't belong here, but I hate to tell you. I've been here much longer, you are the new comers demanding change that changes the core fundamentals of the game under the guise that it'll actually retain new players. |
Dr Caymus
Applied Technologies Inc Agents of Fortune
104
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 06:14:26 -
[2344] - Quote
Bad idea, as evidenced by the vast majority of 100-plus pages of posts.
I'd rather fly around in a Charon with a Budweiser skin. Surely AB InBev would pay something for that (yea, yea, I'd have to undock once in awhile...). This seems like its really about boosting game revenues. As an alternative, ad insertion could be done in a clever, tasteful and entertaining fashion without materially impacting game play. Just think of the possibilities:
Sell naming rights to popular stations. Jita IV-4, for example, might become "Oracle Station".
Apparel, of course, has enormous potential. Who wouldn't want to show up at the next alliance meeting sporting an Oakley monocle or North Face jacket?
Modules might be branded. Who needs Cormack's Modified Coprocessor when you could fit an Intel CPU instead?
Catarpillar exhumers, Shell rocket fuel, Quafe labeled as Coke, ads on billboards at stargates, the possibilities are endless. The revenue potential could be huge!
|
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming The Bastion
126
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 06:28:06 -
[2345] - Quote
Dr Caymus wrote:Bad idea, as evidenced by the vast majority of 100-plus pages of posts.
I'd rather fly around in a Charon with a Budweiser skin. Surely AB InBev would pay something for that (yea, yea, I'd have to undock once in awhile...). This seems like its really about boosting game revenues. As an alternative, ad insertion could be done in a clever, tasteful and entertaining fashion without materially impacting game play. Just think of the possibilities:
Sell naming rights to popular stations. Jita IV-4, for example, might become "Oracle Station".
Apparel, of course, has enormous potential. Who wouldn't want to show up at the next alliance meeting sporting an Oakley monocle or North Face jacket?
Modules might be branded. Who needs Cormack's Modified Coprocessor when you could fit an Intel CPU instead?
Catarpillar exhumers, Shell rocket fuel, Quafe labeled as Coke, ads on billboards at stargates, the possibilities are endless. The revenue potential could be huge!
Interesting, but those big names may not thing that our demographic is big enough to warrant any real money to break even from dev costs. |
Dave Stark
7570
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 06:31:45 -
[2346] - Quote
i would honestly rather upset people with 200m than see the game full of dreadful adverts.
there's a reason pretty much all of us install ad blockers on our browsers. |
Aischa Montagne
Blut-Klauen-Clan
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 06:43:52 -
[2347] - Quote
Hmm, why dont you add the Option to Sell a character as a Contract?
Contracts do have Auction feature. Setup Price for the Auction could be the 2 Plex. And Bam, you have all features in game that are currently done in the Forum.
I see following Advantages: # Character Auction is sufficently tested by the community. Prices are set by them. -> Low Game impact risk # Development cost should be low (What you need to do is add Plex Pricing, plus generate a Character Item that allows you to browse the Auctioned Character. (Browseing the Auction Character is a feature that is in the game. you may need to generalize this feautre thought.)
I see disadvantages on Skilltradeing: # Skilltraining devaluates by the Price in the market. (Drops the Price to low no one wants to skill.) # High Risk to break the game, by destroying market price of skillpoints. # High development Invest. You need new features like the 2 Items. # This will impact a lot of People
I do not see the advantage you see. People want to play one role, not Pay for skillpoints.
I would add to the Aurem Market: # Chirugial Services to change your Character # Renameing Services
Renameing Services note: Please add a notification of all renames to people if they have them on the Contact list. Just that a rename Service has been taken. So People know.
That is my Idea for now. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 06:44:44 -
[2348] - Quote
Ok, I've got over my initial knee-jerk reaction.
My thank you to the few thoughtful, calm and rational posters.
Now I find this interesting, exciting and scary at the same time.
This would be a HUGE change, and I don't think all the ramifications have been noted yet (though I certainly haven't read all 2.300 posts!).
For example, let's look at the SP supply side.
Say you're more or less satisfied with the skills you have. Either because you have 100M+ SP, or because you have 15M but well focused on what you like doing in EVE. Note that this may change over time. You can be ok for a few months, then maybe you want SP to do other stuff, then maybe go back to not really needing additional SP anymore. Note that this happens all the time for utility alt accounts: once you have a good hauler, for example, you may well not be really interested in skilling them up in something else.
Now, guess what? To play the game (or even just to shitpost on EVE-O lol) you have to be subscribed. So you're accumulating SP even though you may not need them at the moment.
With this change, you could first change your skillplan to whatever, just to maximise SP/hour based on your current remap. Then, extract and sell these 'surplus' SP.
Fascinating, uh? But it gets better!
I understand it's safe to assume that your monthly 1.8M (or so) SP will be roughly worth the equivalent of 1 PLEX.
See what's happening here? If you forfeit your SP accumulation, you could PLEX your account without grinding ISK!
Partial SP extraction would of course be possible too, meaning that you could fund your monthly PLEX partly with ISK, partly with SP donations.
Did I get this right? Note that you don't need to be a multi-year vet for this to make sense. What do you guys think of this?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
171
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 06:46:06 -
[2349] - Quote
It is a crescendo. The ones demanding this kind of change are the ones who left other games because of this kind of changes.
If they were not, they would not be cheering the destruction of what all the progression of the game means.
But it is too late already. This is not the beginning of something, it is the consolidation of something.
The EVE you describe has been long gone.
Some is better now, some is worse now, but it is all different and there is no point on clinging on the illusion of it is still the same things you describe when you say "that is EVE" in the movie and you actually play EVE.
It is like real life indeed, there are those of us who lives in a house we make of whatever we want, and go to the market and buy whatever we want, and watch TV, which show we want. But we cant say that is life, because that A life, much different from the lives of those who cant afford it.
Well, "That is EVE" was created by people who have the power and the history to make EVE whatever they want. And that is not EVE from a long time now. For the most of the player-base, it is just support the luxury of those making videos like "That is EVE" in ways much diverse than those shown in "That is EVE".
For people, I have no shame in saying, like me, this or any other dumb downing of the game wont matter, because I had my share of "That is EVE", and that was really EVE for me at some point. For those still out there in the corps and places I was before, that is still EVE and probably will still be for a long time.
For those starting today, last month, last quarter, that is not EVE, and never will be. Maybe it is the right thing to facilitate everything, because by now, EVE has become just a game. Just another MMO you see on a list and try out, if your "stats" and "kill-boards" are good, then congrats, you are "good at EVE".
That is when this all began. It is not selling skill points, it is not selling plex, it is not selling packages of ships or veteran chars, these are consequences. It really started when EVE stopped being a Universe where you sought to overcome your foes, or make your own empire, and started counting how many ships you can destroy for no reason at all. That is also true about WoW. WoW became the garbage it is when dps charts became more important than correct handling of mechanics. There were forum threads and devs decision entirely based on the concept that mechanics in the bosses were broken because they were not allowing the optimum DPS. That is insane, but that was inserted in-game. GW2 started with a good proposal, the starting idea would be nice here too, the dynamic events, the rupture with the Tank-DPS-Healer "holy-trinity". Then guess what ? DPS meters and cookie cutters appeared, and the game was molded to such terms. It is always the same, whenever the game becomes based on numbers rather than the reality, the reality accommodate.
Everything lost, there is only one thing that started and made everything else diminish, it was meaning.
That is why I dont bother wars or pvp anymore. It means nothing. Oh, great, "harvest tears", "cry me a river", "bla bla bla killboard". That means nothing. If anything, means the victim is more of value than the weak person who pilots a Tech 3 cruiser and get pride on saying those bull to a person in a weaponless ship. That, meaning, is what ruined null, low and hisec. That is what made sov broken. That is what makes capital ships useless. It is not devs, it is not the game, it is the meaningless "it is just a game" attitude.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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Maraner
The Executioners Shadow Cartel
329
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 06:59:00 -
[2350] - Quote
DEVS? Helloooo?? You all seem to have gone quiet..... very few post from you all.
Anything else to add to this treadnought of your creating?
No?
Eve subscribers need to clearly see what this is.
It is not about helping new players to accelerate their progress faster. It is not about us liberating SP that we would like to spend in other ways. If that was the case then the SP packets could be a drop on rats in belts or you can think of any one of a number of mechanisms to add it to the game.
This is about money.
Money for CCP to allow us to sell something that we have already paid for and in the process change part of the game that has had consequences for poor decisions since its inception.
Our CSM have come out so far universally against it, but you put up the thread anyway.
I look forward to the 'thanks for your feedback' Dev response plus the probable shelving of this idea. I wonder who will get the job of posting the choke reply to this **** storm.
This is an attempt to make more money for CCP for game altering changes that would benefit the people with the most cash.
That is simply something that they said they would not do.
|
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
22
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:01:36 -
[2351] - Quote
Something else I haven't seen mentioned.
Sec status would be meaningless. It's bad enough that Empire is already more dangerous than 0.0.
Instead of putting a gank alt out long enough to grind positive status back or train a new alt. These alts could be created almost daily. Start a new alt every day and pay to skill them up. Hit targets in 1.0 space with no indication something foul was afoot.
Honesty within the community has been brought up in many different forms in this EpicThread so far, I don't need to rehash those issues.
All this 'feature' would accomplish is help the dishonest in the game scam ever more. Increase the ability of spies to infiltrate target corporations with impunity and destroy any semblance of trust this game requires.
This idea sounds like it came straight from the goons.
The real question for CCP here based on the evidence presented so far as I and many others before me interpret it is:
What kind of players do you want in the game?
-- People that recognize consequence and work to build a good reputation? -- People that want game mechanics to help them lie, steal and destroy?
Choose wisely CCP. We will be paying with our wallets.
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Dave Stark
7570
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:02:20 -
[2352] - Quote
Maraner wrote:Our CSM have come out so far universally against it, but you put up the thread anyway.
http://crossingzebras.com/skillpoint-trading/
afraid not, gorksi is in favour for example. |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
22
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:03:34 -
[2353] - Quote
A single CSM a majority does not make. |
Dave Stark
7570
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:05:03 -
[2354] - Quote
Laodell wrote:A single CSM a majority does not make.
i'm aware but even one supporting it means that the csm are not "universally against it" as you said. |
Maraner
The Executioners Shadow Cartel
330
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:10:45 -
[2355] - Quote
Maybe they should just put up a vote on it?
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Dave Stark
7570
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:14:12 -
[2356] - Quote
Maraner wrote:Maybe they should just put up a vote on it?
i'd rather they put up a legitimate reason why - as yet none of them apart from steve has. and even steve's reason is terrible.
buying sp won't make players think "i need to spend more money" than the current system already does, where the only way to close the sp gap between themselves and established players is to buy a new character from the bazaar. |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
173
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:21:21 -
[2357] - Quote
Laodell wrote:A single CSM a majority does not make.
And having CSM a democracy does not make.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
128
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:21:28 -
[2358] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Maraner wrote:Maybe they should just put up a vote on it?
i'd rather they put up a legitimate reason why - as yet none of them apart from steve has. and even steve's reason is terrible. buying sp won't make players think "i need to spend more money" than the current system already does, where the only way to close the sp gap between themselves and established players is to buy a new character from the bazaar.
Maybe that's because that's a horrible mentality to take when coming into any game. What kind of expectation is it that someone should be able to pick a game that's been out for so long and suddenly be able to go toe-to-toe with the best? How is that at all reasonable? If you want something like that play a MOBA not an MMORPG. Stop the bastardization of a genre. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
145
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:22:02 -
[2359] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Laodell wrote:A single CSM a majority does not make. i'm aware but even one supporting it means that the csm are not "universally against it" as you said.
Which means that CCP is longer functioning in unison and is becoming divided. Which is not good for other reasons. Hopefully the majority with eve best interest in mind would prevail and axe this cancerous idea become it manifest itself into the actually game. Or else Eve would slowly but surely die.
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
27
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:27:05 -
[2360] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Maraner wrote:Maybe they should just put up a vote on it?
i'd rather they put up a legitimate reason why - as yet none of them apart from steve has. and even steve's reason is terrible. buying sp won't make players think "i need to spend more money" than the current system already does, where the only way to close the sp gap between themselves and established players is to buy a new character from the bazaar.
I wonder what advantage Stark see's so clearly for himself that he would be pushing this so vehemently for so many 118 pages Dave Stark seems to be the village loud mouth that screams at everyone that whatever he thinks is a good idea has to be done.
It's not a personal attack so much as pointing out his arguments should have not one whit more validity just because he's been repeating them over and over.
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|
Dave Stark
7570
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:28:41 -
[2361] - Quote
Nasar Vyron wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Maraner wrote:Maybe they should just put up a vote on it?
i'd rather they put up a legitimate reason why - as yet none of them apart from steve has. and even steve's reason is terrible. buying sp won't make players think "i need to spend more money" than the current system already does, where the only way to close the sp gap between themselves and established players is to buy a new character from the bazaar. Maybe that's because that's a horrible mentality to take when coming into any game. What kind of expectation is it that someone should be able to pick a game that's been out for so long and suddenly be able to go toe-to-toe with the best? How is that at all reasonable? If you want something like that play a MOBA not an MMORPG. Stop the bastardization of a genre.
"we should tell new players to get ****** and refuse to allow the to even attempt to have a level playing field with veterans" and we wonder why the pcu is declining? |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:31:36 -
[2362] - Quote
Laodell wrote:I wonder what advantage Stark see's so clearly for himself that he would be pushing this so vehemently for so many 118 pages Not sure if Stark (as a character seller, if I understood correctly) will have advantages.
Guess what will happen to the market SP/ISK ratio when thousands of Russians will be able to afford PLEX again, just by choosing to play without accumulating SP instead of not playing at all?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dave Stark
7570
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:31:54 -
[2363] - Quote
Laodell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Maraner wrote:Maybe they should just put up a vote on it?
i'd rather they put up a legitimate reason why - as yet none of them apart from steve has. and even steve's reason is terrible. buying sp won't make players think "i need to spend more money" than the current system already does, where the only way to close the sp gap between themselves and established players is to buy a new character from the bazaar. I wonder what advantage Stark see's so clearly for himself that he would be pushing this so vehemently for so many 118 pages Dave Stark seems to be the village loud mouth that screams at everyone that whatever he thinks is a good idea has to be done. It's not a personal attack so much as pointing out his arguments should have not one whit more validity just because he's been repeating them over and over.
none what so ever. i've just yet to see, after 118 pages an argument for why this shouldn't be included other than "i don't like it".
nobody has pointed out a single reason why this is bad other than "i don't like it" or pretending pre-existing issues will suddenly exist.
we've always purchased and sold sp, new players have always felt obligated to buy characters to bypass tedious months of training support skills etc whether that be by grinding isk really slowly in their low sp pilots or opening their wallet.
in the absence of any reasons why this is bad - why wouldn't we add this?
if i were CCP and the CSM all sat there and went "i don't like it" but none of them actually put forward a reason why it's bad - i'd laugh at them and release the devblog too. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:33:12 -
[2364] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Ok, I've got over my initial knee-jerk reaction. My thank you to the few thoughtful, calm and rational posters. Now I find this interesting, exciting and scary at the same time. This would be a HUGE change, and I don't think all the ramifications have been noted yet (though I certainly haven't read all 2.300 posts!). For example, let's look at the SP supply side. Say you're more or less satisfied with the skills you have. Either because you have 100M+ SP, or because you have 15M but well focused on what you like doing in EVE. Note that this may change over time. You can be ok for a few months, then maybe you want SP to do other stuff, then maybe go back to not really needing additional SP anymore. Note that this happens all the time for utility alt accounts: once you have a good hauler, for example, you may well not be really interested in skilling them up in something else. Now, guess what? To play the game (or even just to shitpost on EVE-O lol) you have to be subscribed. So you're accumulating SP even though you may not need them at the moment. With this change, you could first change your skillplan to whatever, just to maximise SP/hour based on your current remap. Then, extract and sell these 'surplus' SP. Fascinating, uh? But it gets better! I understand it's safe to assume that your monthly 1.8M (or so) SP will be roughly worth the equivalent of 1 PLEX. See what's happening here? If you forfeit your SP accumulation, you could PLEX your account without grinding ISK!Partial SP extraction would of course be possible too, meaning that you could fund your monthly PLEX partly with ISK, partly with SP donations. Did I get this right? Note that you don't need to be a multi-year vet for this to make sense. What do you guys think of this? I think it is a good option when you found your specialization and training not required yet. |
Dave Stark
7570
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:34:05 -
[2365] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Not sure if Stark (as a character seller, if I understood correctly) will have advantages.
just gonna nip this one in the bud - no, i'm not.
however with this new system i'd probably start selling SP packets. i have an account that just has 3 PI characters on it. i'd simply use the SP to pay for the gametime as i don't need more than ~15 days worth of SP on those characters. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:40:05 -
[2366] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Not sure if Stark (as a character seller, if I understood correctly) will have advantages.
just gonna nip this one in the bud - no, i'm not. however with this new system i'd probably start selling SP packets. i have an account that just has 3 PI characters on it. i'd simply use the SP to pay for the gametime as i don't need more than ~15 days worth of SP on those characters. Exactly!
And so will countless others...
PLEX allowed the ISK-earners to trade their ISK for game time.
Now we'll have this, that will allow the SP-earners (anybody that doesn't really need full-speed skilling on one or more of their accounts) to trade their SP for game time.
I admit I'm starting to like this...
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Karin Yang
Eye Of Insight SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:42:19 -
[2367] - Quote
Aischa Montagne wrote:Hmm, why dont you add the Option to Sell a character as a Contract?
Contracts do have Auction feature. Setup Price for the Auction could be the 2 Plex. And Bam, you have all features in game that are currently done in the Forum.
I see following Advantages: # Character Auction is sufficently tested by the community. Prices are set by them. -> Low Game impact risk # Development cost should be low (What you need to do is add Plex Pricing, plus generate a Character Item that allows you to browse the Auctioned Character. (Browseing the Auction Character is a feature that is in the game. you may need to generalize this feautre thought.)
I see disadvantages on Skilltradeing: # Skilltraining devaluates by the Price in the market. (Drops the Price to low no one wants to skill.) # High Risk to break the game, by destroying market price of skillpoints. # High development Invest. You need new features like the 2 Items. # This will impact a lot of People
I do not see the advantage you see. People want to play one role, not Pay for skillpoints.
I would add to the Aurem Market: # Chirugial Services to change your Character # Renameing Services
Renameing Services note: Please add a notification of all renames to people if they have them on the Contact list. Just that a rename Service has been taken. So People know.
That is my Idea for now. This post makes you like a character farmer. The difference between character bazaar and skill trading is mainly that one is exist and another is not. But this does not make one acceptable and another is dangerous. |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
437
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:44:00 -
[2368] - Quote
Laodell wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote:
I always said that if events surrounding Incarna were stretched out over many months and expansions they probably would not culminate in Jita Riots. I think the effect would be the same though. Slow and gradual disenchantment with the game and gradual decline. I think this is what has been happening for a few years now.
Proof of your statement can be seen in the drop of activity in the recruitment channels over the years. It used to scroll by faster than you could read it. Now, it barely moves.
Not to say that you are wrong but the AWOX changes might have contributed to that decline as well. Recruitment chat used to be full of AWOXers looking for a corp to join. Although most of the spam was done by corps recruiting, so you're probably right. |
Dave Stark
7571
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:46:12 -
[2369] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Not sure if Stark (as a character seller, if I understood correctly) will have advantages.
just gonna nip this one in the bud - no, i'm not. however with this new system i'd probably start selling SP packets. i have an account that just has 3 PI characters on it. i'd simply use the SP to pay for the gametime as i don't need more than ~15 days worth of SP on those characters. Exactly! And so will countless others... PLEX allowed the ISK-earners to trade their ISK for game time. Now we'll have this, that will allow the SP-earners (anybody that doesn't really need full-speed skilling on one or more of their accounts) to trade their SP for game time. I admit I'm starting to like this...
Is it really any different to me taking my purely PI account and using 1 character slot to make say - a perfect naglfar pilot - and then selling that on the bazaar?
people who want to sell SP for isk were already able to do so. got an empty character slot on an account? dual training and away you go.
this system is something we've already had for a while - just in a less convoluted format. also the SP isn't being made from thin air and with the diminishing returns this creates an SP sink and will limit the supply. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:49:34 -
[2370] - Quote
Laodell wrote:Something else I haven't seen mentioned.
Sec status would be meaningless. It's bad enough that Empire is already more dangerous than 0.0.
Instead of putting a gank alt out long enough to grind positive status back or train a new alt. These alts could be created almost daily. Start a new alt every day and pay to skill them up. Hit targets in 1.0 space with no indication something foul was afoot.
Honesty within the community has been brought up in many different forms in this EpicThread so far, I don't need to rehash those issues.
All this 'feature' would accomplish is help the dishonest in the game scam ever more. Increase the ability of spies to infiltrate target corporations with impunity and destroy any semblance of trust this game requires.
This idea sounds like it came straight from the goons.
The real question for CCP here based on the evidence presented so far as I and many others before me interpret it is:
What kind of players do you want in the game?
-- People that recognize consequence and work to build a good reputation? -- People that want game mechanics to help them lie, steal and destroy?
Choose wisely CCP. We will be voting with our wallets. Actually both opption is necessary. I can't remember last time when I watched film without any problems in it which was solving by characters successfully or not.
"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world, where none suffered, where everyone would be happy? It was a disaster. No one would accept the program, entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world, but I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through misery and suffering. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from." |
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
77
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:54:17 -
[2371] - Quote
Karin Yang wrote:RavenPaine wrote:Morihei Akachi wrote:
That was the original vision of New Eden. A world where you canGÇÖt just dev hack or buy your way out of your biography. Because itGÇÖs real.
People are going to disagree with this violently and IGÇÖm fine with that. This is just my take on it, and an attempt to clarify for myself a little better why I find the idea of buying and selling a characterGÇÖs past so disheartening.
Great points, though I omitted most of it. I'd add that the learning process was/is a 'hook'. It helps define end goals and mistakes, and gives a player a sense of satisfaction when the goal is achieved. In turn, the time spent feels like an investment you have made in your own, real, character. Your money, your time, your character, your creation. It's all important to the mental process when you decide to keep that account subbed. IMO, if you want long term players, you need long term end game goals. The current 'frigates online' state of EVE is already a short train with no real investment. And hasn't that already proven that it doesn't improve player base? Pretty sure it correlates directly with the decline of EVE player base. If 1,000 newbs buy skill points and still lose their cruisers in pitiful fireballs, they'll just be 1,000 frustrated newbs. Skill points won't make them 'better', nor will it make the game more fun. Fun is strictly a state of mind. But whether they quit or stay, they're going to devalue my character in the process. Subscribe and then dock in station doing nothing seems a huge challenge for you towards your goal? It is devalued because what you did is not valuable at all. It's not reasonable that someone is more successful only because he is older. BTW, it needs trillions of ISK to max skill your character, I don't see you have accomplished that goal after this change.
Or you could choose to not be lazy ass and find fun on your own? Ie not demand everything on the plate. There is fun to be there since day 1, there are things to learn, explore etc.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 07:56:12 -
[2372] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:just in a less convoluted format Dave, this little detail is actually HUGE...
Today to get ISK out of your subscription time you have to:
. Know about the character bazaar . Learn how it works . Learn how to make a decent, sellable character . Post on the subforum, follow the replies . Do the transfer correctly . Make sure you follow all the rules . Etc.... . EDIT: wait several weeks or more for the char to skill up a bit <-- another HUGE difference, the new system is 'instant SP-to-ISK'
Tomorrow you just need to: . Buy an extractor in Jita . Fill it . Sell the packet in Jita
It's almost the difference between RMT-ing ISK and buying a PLEX in Jita, except of course that the char bazaar is legal thus a bit easier/less worrisome to use.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
78
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:00:59 -
[2373] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Maraner wrote:Maybe they should just put up a vote on it?
i'd rather they put up a legitimate reason why - as yet none of them apart from steve has. and even steve's reason is terrible. buying sp won't make players think "i need to spend more money" than the current system already does, where the only way to close the sp gap between themselves and established players is to buy a new character from the bazaar. Maybe that's because that's a horrible mentality to take when coming into any game. What kind of expectation is it that someone should be able to pick a game that's been out for so long and suddenly be able to go toe-to-toe with the best? How is that at all reasonable? If you want something like that play a MOBA not an MMORPG. Stop the bastardization of a genre. "we should tell new players to get ****** and refuse to allow the to even attempt to have a level playing field with veterans" and we wonder why the pcu is declining?
No.We all were the very new players. Majority of us started in harsher conditions than they will, we develop through much harder times. And we played through it. And actually had fun and still have nice memories out of it. So I do not see why should it be problem for them as well.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
78
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:01:52 -
[2374] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Laodell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Maraner wrote:Maybe they should just put up a vote on it?
i'd rather they put up a legitimate reason why - as yet none of them apart from steve has. and even steve's reason is terrible. buying sp won't make players think "i need to spend more money" than the current system already does, where the only way to close the sp gap between themselves and established players is to buy a new character from the bazaar. I wonder what advantage Stark see's so clearly for himself that he would be pushing this so vehemently for so many 118 pages Dave Stark seems to be the village loud mouth that screams at everyone that whatever he thinks is a good idea has to be done. It's not a personal attack so much as pointing out his arguments should have not one whit more validity just because he's been repeating them over and over. none what so ever. i've just yet to see, after 118 pages an argument for why this shouldn't be included other than "i don't like it". nobody has pointed out a single reason why this is bad other than "i don't like it" or pretending pre-existing issues will suddenly exist. we've always purchased and sold sp, new players have always felt obligated to buy characters to bypass tedious months of training support skills etc whether that be by grinding isk really slowly in their low sp pilots or opening their wallet. in the absence of any reasons why this is bad - why wouldn't we add this? if i were CCP and the CSM all sat there and went "i don't like it" but none of them actually put forward a reason why it's bad - i'd laugh at them and release the devblog too.
Dont start again. Either counter argument my arguments which were made 50 pages ago or drop this stupid "no one gave any arguments". And there were others who did some solid arguments as well...
I hope CCP are not shallow as it seems at the moment and that they will take an effort to read all arguments. And then provide us answers on those.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
152
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:02:48 -
[2375] - Quote
Laodell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Maraner wrote:Maybe they should just put up a vote on it?
i'd rather they put up a legitimate reason why - as yet none of them apart from steve has. and even steve's reason is terrible. buying sp won't make players think "i need to spend more money" than the current system already does, where the only way to close the sp gap between themselves and established players is to buy a new character from the bazaar. I wonder what advantage Stark see's so clearly for himself that he would be pushing this so vehemently for so many 118 pages Dave Stark seems to be the village loud mouth that screams at everyone that whatever he thinks is a good idea has to be done. It's not a personal attack so much as pointing out his arguments should have not one whit more validity just because he's been repeating them over and over.
He's probably a Dev alt. |
Dave Stark
7571
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:05:00 -
[2376] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:just in a less convoluted format Dave, this little detail is actually HUGE... Today to get ISK out of your subscription time you have to: . Know about the character bazaar . Learn how it works . Learn how to make a decent, sellable character . Post on the subforum, follow the replies . Do the transfer correctly . Make sure you follow all the rules . Etc.... Tomorrow you just need to: . Buy an extractor in Jita . Fill it . Sell the packet in Jita It's almost the difference between RMT-ing ISK and buying a PLEX in Jita, except of course that the char bazaar is legal thus a bit easier/less worrisome to use.
it's not huge though.
what have ccp systematically been doing for the last few years? removing all the convoluted crap causing eve to just be an obtuse and uncooperative game.
this idea in itself is nothing - essentially it's nothing more than one of karkur's little things like tidying up the UI (and we all now how awesome they are, and why it has made karkur one of the communities favourite devs). nothing actually changes within the game but the game simply less obtuse and that improves the game without changing it.
pretending this idea will kill eve or something is completely laughable. if selling SP was going to kill eve, it would have a long time ago with the bazaar. clearly the game hasn't died so selling SP really isn't that big of a deal. is there honestly a legitimate reason why it should be obtuse and difficult to use?
i don't recall seeing mass calls for the removal of the bazaar - so if i seem condescending in half of my replies on earlier pages it's because i regard those people, quite frankly, as hypocrites. |
Hulk Miner
White Horse Incorporated
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:05:39 -
[2377] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i've just yet to see, after 118 pages an argument for why this shouldn't be included other than "i don't like it".
This seems to bypass the EVE experience and removes any consequences involved with any choices made by a player.
EVE was founded on premise of everybody has a choice and behind that choice there may be consequences. When injecting skills over the 9 years playing EVE I have made some good and bad choices with my characters and learned by my mistakes, this is a part of the EVE online experience and grows you into a more experienced/knowledgeable pilot. Though I have traded characters for the best majority of these tis still not the same as hot swapping skill points and there must be better options than suggested by the OP?
Even giving a new player more starting SP and a selection of starting roles and pre skilling needed skills to give them a turbo boost into the game content would sound more viable.
|
Dave Stark
7571
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:07:19 -
[2378] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dont start again. Either counter argument my arguments which were made 50 pages ago or drop this stupid "no one gave any arguments". And there were others who did some solid arguments as well...
I hope CCP are not shallow as it seems at the moment and that they will take an effort to read all arguments. And then provide us answers on those.
start what?
you keep saying arguments were made yet none of them have been reproduced regardless of my asking for them. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:07:45 -
[2379] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:No.We all were the very new players. Majority of us started in harsher conditions than they will, we develop through much harder times. And we played through it. And actually had fun and still have nice memories out of it. So I do not see why should it be problem for them as well. Don, I apologize I'm starting to slip towards the dark side too...
Re your point, I enjoyed every minute of being a new player. I'm still relatively new after 2 years.
At the time, I had the option to sell PLEX obviously, to make ISK faster. I never did, because I enjoy the challenge more.
But I never once cared that other players could have more ISK than me by buying PLEX. To each their own. I even felt prouder to do it 'the hard way'.
Couldn't the same philosphy apply to SP trading? We all know that more SP gives you more options, but certainly doesn't make you a better player... Why not let the 'shortcut lovers' pay more than the hardcore gamers?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Theo Sotken
Mother Knows Best Corporation
42
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:08:29 -
[2380] - Quote
thebarry wrote:Why are all these nerds talking about pay2win? You can buy characters right now through the bazaar, if that's ok then whytf isn't buying sp ok too? I have 20m I'd happily sell off...I think this is a fine idea.
No difference between this and the bizaar? Why not just sell that ugly mutt of a character now and quit whining about that 20million sp you misspent over the years your character developed.
|
|
darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:09:24 -
[2381] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
start what?
you keep saying arguments were made yet none of them have been reproduced regardless of my asking for them.
thats the thing... read them where they were made in the first place... trolllololo |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:10:29 -
[2382] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:just in a less convoluted format Dave, this little detail is actually HUGE... Today to get ISK out of your subscription time you have to: . Know about the character bazaar . Learn how it works . Learn how to make a decent, sellable character . Post on the subforum, follow the replies . Do the transfer correctly . Make sure you follow all the rules . Etc.... Tomorrow you just need to: . Buy an extractor in Jita . Fill it . Sell the packet in Jita It's almost the difference between RMT-ing ISK and buying a PLEX in Jita, except of course that the char bazaar is legal thus a bit easier/less worrisome to use. it's not huge though. what have ccp systematically been doing for the last few years? removing all the convoluted crap causing eve to just be an obtuse and uncooperative game. this idea in itself is nothing - essentially it's nothing more than one of karkur's little things like tidying up the UI (and we all now how awesome they are, and why it has made karkur one of the communities favourite devs). nothing actually changes within the game but the game simply less obtuse and that improves the game without changing it. pretending this idea will kill eve or something is completely laughable. if selling SP was going to kill eve, it would have a long time ago with the bazaar. clearly the game hasn't died so selling SP really isn't that big of a deal. is there honestly a legitimate reason why it should be obtuse and difficult to use? i don't recall seeing mass calls for the removal of the bazaar - so if i seem condescending in half of my replies on earlier pages it's because i regard those people, quite frankly, as hypocrites. I'm not saying this will kill EVE, but I'm pretty sure that both supply and demand of SP will skyrocket because of an incredibly easier way to trade it.
It's like going from barter to currency.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
78
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:11:45 -
[2383] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dont start again. Either counter argument my arguments which were made 50 pages ago or drop this stupid "no one gave any arguments". And there were others who did some solid arguments as well...
I hope CCP are not shallow as it seems at the moment and that they will take an effort to read all arguments. And then provide us answers on those. start what? you keep saying arguments were made yet none of them have been reproduced regardless of my asking for them.
Start with shallow spam and stating no one gave arguments without actually countering them. If they are weak you should have no problem to challenge them, other way you are just troll/spammer.
And there are arguments, saying they are none will not make them disappear as they are written down in the topic. So anyone actually caring to read the topic will see your "game".
I am going out now, but i will gladly read your counter arguments later tonight and discuss on them. If you make them that is.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7571
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:12:22 -
[2384] - Quote
Hulk Miner wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i've just yet to see, after 118 pages an argument for why this shouldn't be included other than "i don't like it".
This seems to bypass the EVE experience and removes any consequences involved with any choices made by a player.
EVE was founded on premise of everybody has a choice and behind that choice there may be consequences. When injecting skills over the 9 years playing EVE I have made some good and bad choices with my characters and learned by my mistakes, this is a part of the EVE online experience and grows you into a more experienced/knowledgeable pilot. Though I have traded characters for the best majority of these tis still not the same as hot swapping skill points and there must be better options than suggested by the OP? Even giving a new player more starting SP and a selection of starting roles and pre skilling needed skills to give them a turbo boost into the game content would sound more viable.
this system has a myriad of consequences. the quite literal isk and/or real money cost of extracting SP. then the diminishing returns where reallocating that SP magically destroys up to 90% of that SP.
bypass the eve experience? that's exactly what the character bazaar does now. i assume by "eve experience" you mean "waiting an abitrary amount of time for a timer to expire so you can do something else"?
so we're already bypassing things, and consequences still exist. we haven't removed any consequences and bypassing things isn't new. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
78
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:14:31 -
[2385] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:No.We all were the very new players. Majority of us started in harsher conditions than they will, we develop through much harder times. And we played through it. And actually had fun and still have nice memories out of it. So I do not see why should it be problem for them as well. Don, I apologize I'm starting to slip towards the dark side too... Re your point, I enjoyed every minute of being a new player. I'm still relatively new after 2 years. At the time, I had the option to sell PLEX obviously, to make ISK faster. I never did, because I enjoy the challenge more. But I never once cared that other players could have more ISK than me by buying PLEX. To each their own. I even felt prouder to do it 'the hard way'. Couldn't the same philosphy apply to SP trading? We all know that more SP gives you more options, but certainly doesn't make you a better player... Why not let the 'shortcut lovers' pay more than the hardcore gamers?
No worries, I am not referring to that "history" post but to posts with numerous arguments and expectations like 50 and 70 pages ago. Until someone counters them with some reasonable explanation I will stand by the fact that this is easily the worst decision ever since it will change fundamentals of the game for unknown expectations without helping more than minor percent of the players.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Theo Sotken
Mother Knows Best Corporation
42
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:15:37 -
[2386] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:just in a less convoluted format Dave, this little detail is actually HUGE... Today to get ISK out of your subscription time you have to: . Know about the character bazaar . Learn how it works . Learn how to make a decent, sellable character . Post on the subforum, follow the replies . Do the transfer correctly . Make sure you follow all the rules . Etc.... . EDIT: wait several weeks or more for the char to skill up a bit <-- another HUGE difference, the new system is 'instant SP-to-ISK' Tomorrow you just need to: . Buy an extractor in Jita . Fill it . Sell the packet in Jita It's almost the difference between RMT-ing ISK and buying a PLEX in Jita, except of course that the char bazaar is legal thus a bit easier/less worrisome to use.
You missed the bit where you pay CCP cash to bypass the current system as the extractors will only be created by paying aur. |
Dave Stark
7571
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:16:09 -
[2387] - Quote
darkchild's corpse wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
start what?
you keep saying arguments were made yet none of them have been reproduced regardless of my asking for them.
thats the thing... read them where they were made in the first place... trolllololo
if there were any, they'd have been used to counter my points by now. i'm not in the habit of chasing fairy tales. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:19:01 -
[2388] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:No worries, I am not referring to that "history" post but to posts with numerous arguments and expectations like 50 and 70 pages ago. Until someone counters them with some reasonable explanation I will stand by the fact that this is easily the worst decision ever since it will change fundamentals of the game for unknown expectations without helping more than minor percent of the players. Did you consider the fact that every single subscribed account will be able to get ISK for any and all not needed SP? And that SP accumulates constantly?
That means that potentially 100% of EVE players can grind less for ISK (and/or PLEX), provided obviously that on the other side there are ISK- (and/or cash-) rich players willing to buy SP.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
437
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:19:09 -
[2389] - Quote
Fourteen Maken wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:For people quitting in protest I remind them that Operation Magic School Bus does accept donations to help out the new players. Yes, this is a 'can I haz' post but it is one where the material will be put to good use, not just lining a wallet or hanger. Contract to me if you wish to donate.
m People threaten to rage over everything these days. I don't see a reason to over this devblog as it is put out as a proposal to gather feedback and start a dialogue. People should always welcome such things. I can understand some people's frustrations though as they associate every word that comes out from any employee of CCP as the company's policy. I'm not privy to their inner workings but I suspect they have many independent offices, teams and devs. Many of them seem to be misaligned and have different ideas about EVE. If I thought that CCP as a compnay was seriously pushing for this idea I would be very worried. Everyone has their limit and there are some lines that should not be crossed. What line are they crossing here that hasn't already been crossed?
They've gotten away with non-vanity RMT for a while now but it has been in limited and insignificant form. I'm not counting PLEX. This is RMT in a major game changing way. It goes against everything that this game is built on. I'm not going to repeat myself so just read here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6100830#post6100830 |
Dave Stark
7571
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:19:51 -
[2390] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Until someone counters them with some reasonable explanation I will stand by the fact that this is easily the worst decision ever since it will change fundamentals of the game for unknown expectations without helping more than minor percent of the players.
this is one for when you get back then, Don.
let's start at the beginning.
What fundamentals are being changed?
buying/selling SP? no. we're already doing that with the character bazaar. bypassing the skill training system? no. we're already doing that with the charcter bazaar. "now we can get characters with 400m sp" - so what problem does that cause? |
|
darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:20:37 -
[2391] - Quote
thats exactly like this other guy... "why is it a bad idea?" "it was already explained, read it" "no, i'm too lazy, your point is invalid"
yeah... thats exactly how it works... *facepalm* |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:21:17 -
[2392] - Quote
Theo Sotken wrote:You missed the bit where you pay CCP cash to bypass the current system as the extractors will only be created by paying aur. Yes, CCP certainly gets extra cash, actually I ranted about this a few dozen pages ago.
But you'll be able to buy extractors for ISK, then sell packets for a higher amount of ISK (exact numbers are anyone's guess atm).
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
437
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:24:20 -
[2393] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote:I'm sure someone probably already mentioned this but this is nothing short of RMT to skill up.
Basically, you get as many alts as your wallet allows. You start training them and every 5mil SP you strip their SP and inject into your main. You can basically have alt farms to win. With character bazaar or just training alts, you can gain an advantage but they're still stuck in their respective speeds, roles and skills. This is LITERALLY paying $ to accelerate skill training with no limit to it. The only limit is how much you're willing to spend to accelerate your skill training. so, your issue is what exactly? that it's a paid service, or you can have as much sp as you want? what exactly is the grip here? we know how the system works, there's a whole devblog telling us that.
I thought that part was obviously clear. If it's not to you then you probably will not understand. |
darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:27:20 -
[2394] - Quote
the last 50 pages are just dave trolling and ppl feeding him. but if that helps to make CCP aware that this is a very sensible topic... feed him \o/ |
Dave Stark
7571
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:27:56 -
[2395] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote:I'm sure someone probably already mentioned this but this is nothing short of RMT to skill up.
Basically, you get as many alts as your wallet allows. You start training them and every 5mil SP you strip their SP and inject into your main. You can basically have alt farms to win. With character bazaar or just training alts, you can gain an advantage but they're still stuck in their respective speeds, roles and skills. This is LITERALLY paying $ to accelerate skill training with no limit to it. The only limit is how much you're willing to spend to accelerate your skill training. so, your issue is what exactly? that it's a paid service, or you can have as much sp as you want? what exactly is the grip here? we know how the system works, there's a whole devblog telling us that. I thought that part was obviously clear. If it's not to you then you probably will not understand.
oh look, a condescending insult rather than a legitimate point.
all you've done is whine that people can use the system - you've yet to point out why using this new system is an issue, |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
31
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:28:09 -
[2396] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i would honestly rather upset people with 200m sp than see the game full of dreadful adverts.
there's a reason pretty much all of us install ad blockers on our browsers.
All other issues not withstanding I am actually with this guy. It's bad enough windows 1984 ( Windows 10 ) is offering ads on the start menu. I would hurl if I saw them in Eve Online also. |
Dave Stark
7571
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:30:27 -
[2397] - Quote
darkchild's corpse wrote:the last 50 pages are just dave trolling and ppl feeding him. but if that helps to make CCP aware that this is a very sensible topic... feed him \o/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO2cHJmDkBg |
BroodAlpha
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:36:36 -
[2398] - Quote
Hello guys,
I'm going to go ahead and say I really dislike the premise of this change and with the diminishing returns it feels like CCP is doing this to make the lives of newbeans easier (which is cool), but this ostracizes the entire older player community. As a director of a newbean corp I would normally be in favor of a change like this but I am not.
I have been playing for a year and a half and I would not have the toons that I have right now, and the capital I earned from the Bazaar would be negligible if these proposed changes were live when I started.
1) SP on the Bazaar holds value because characters are uniquely trained. With these skillpoint sucker doo-hiccies no character is unique any more because people can just remap whatever.
2) The value of high SP characters drops through the floor due to the diminishing returns on the extractors.
3) It puts a monetary value on SP in certain ranges, meaning that players no longer decide the value of toons which was half the fun of the bazaar.
4) It removes the most stable market in the game, SP. SP was stable because you couldn't mess with it. With these proposed changes, you can.
To put this into terms for you guys I have made a lot of ISK from character sales on the Bazaar using this strategy:
1) Look for a relatively well trained toon that needs a bit of fixing up, but not too much.
2) Acquire toon for a good SP/ISK ratio (3m SP per Billion ISK)
3) Train holes in toon
4) Flip for profit
Is this possible with the new system? Not really, because rich toffs can just manipulate characters so they're perfect, meaning that unless you pump money into making sure that no SP is wasted, the value of toons drops through the floor.
One of my recent transactions netted me 15b ISK profit for doing 2 months training. This is because I put a bunch of time into learning the market, toon values and learning what skills EVE players put value in. There's also no scamming on the Bazaar so it's the safest place to invest your ISK.
I don't think anyone expected CCP to suggest messing with skill points... After this change, I will no longer be using the Bazaar.
BroodAlpha is trained almost perfectly outside of the Mining V and Gas Cloud Mining V. Do I want to be able to reallocate those SP? Sure it'd be cool, but it's NOT worth changing the entire system for and it devalues all my other toons. I task anyone to go to the Bazaar right now and find me a better trained 64m SP allround subcap toon.
tl;dr
Worst idea I've heard of since Jump Fatigue being applied to jump bridges (Remember the change was supposed to nerf capital projection, not the ability of sovholding alliances to move their subcap fleets around). |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:38:14 -
[2399] - Quote
Oh, by the way, I suspect this would totally nuke the character bazaar.
Today, if you spend 6 months training a char to sell, I assume you'll want at least 6 PLEX for it, plus 2 PLEX transfer fees etc.
That's because, from the seller's perspective, the PLEX spent went ENTIRELY into Skill Points.
But that's not true. 1 PLEX buys you 2 things at a time:
1) yes, a month's worth of SP
2) also, incidentally, a month's worth of game time
With the new system, anyone can sell SP from their ACTIVE accounts. That is, from the accounts that they are already using, and subbing/PLEXing, to play with.
Now, if you spend a PLEX on an active account, how much of that PLEX do you feel is giving you game time and how much gives you SP???
In other words, what fraction of a PLEX would you consider a 'fair market price' for a month's worth of SP?
It's anybody's guess, but the answer is certainly less than 100%, or a full PLEX...
Interesting times ahead...
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Laodell
Executable Inc.
31
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:39:00 -
[2400] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Laodell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Maraner wrote:Maybe they should just put up a vote on it?
i'd rather they put up a legitimate reason why - as yet none of them apart from steve has. and even steve's reason is terrible. buying sp won't make players think "i need to spend more money" than the current system already does, where the only way to close the sp gap between themselves and established players is to buy a new character from the bazaar. I wonder what advantage Stark see's so clearly for himself that he would be pushing this so vehemently for so many 118 pages Dave Stark seems to be the village loud mouth that screams at everyone that whatever he thinks is a good idea has to be done. It's not a personal attack so much as pointing out his arguments should have not one whit more validity just because he's been repeating them over and over. none what so ever. i've just yet to see, after 118 pages an argument for why this shouldn't be included other than "i don't like it". nobody has pointed out a single reason why this is bad other than "i don't like it" or pretending pre-existing issues will suddenly exist. we've always purchased and sold sp, new players have always felt obligated to buy characters to bypass tedious months of training support skills etc whether that be by grinding isk really slowly in their low sp pilots or opening their wallet. in the absence of any reasons why this is bad - why wouldn't we add this? if i were CCP and the CSM all sat there and went "i don't like it" but none of them actually put forward a reason why it's bad - i'd laugh at them and release the devblog too.
There you go again.
If that's all you see then you have clearly failed at English comprehension, or you are deliberately pretending to be ignorant of the 118 pages of vary valid points made by people saying " I don't like this and here's my argument".
There's at least a good solid full day or 2 days worth of arguments against this with approval from people that have no frame of reference to understand our knowledge of game mechanics after TEN YEARS or MORE playing the game
We understand how it's been working Dude. We know, we get it. We have been around in both Eve Online and the Real World long enough to be capable of understanding how this mistake will proceed.
|
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:43:32 -
[2401] - Quote
BroodAlpha wrote:After this change, I will no longer be using the Bazaar. My take:
1) the bazaar will become completely obsolete for low SP chars (up to 50M SP)
2) nothing will change for high SP chars (over 50M SP), because you will not be able to efficiently create them with the new skill packets
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Laodell
Executable Inc.
31
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:44:05 -
[2402] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:darkchild's corpse wrote:the last 50 pages are just dave trolling and ppl feeding him. but if that helps to make CCP aware that this is a very sensible topic... feed him \o/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO2cHJmDkBg
Effing Expert Troll he is. You have to give him points for linking an appropriately great song. :) |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
437
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:46:17 -
[2403] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote:I'm sure someone probably already mentioned this but this is nothing short of RMT to skill up.
Basically, you get as many alts as your wallet allows. You start training them and every 5mil SP you strip their SP and inject into your main. You can basically have alt farms to win. With character bazaar or just training alts, you can gain an advantage but they're still stuck in their respective speeds, roles and skills. This is LITERALLY paying $ to accelerate skill training with no limit to it. The only limit is how much you're willing to spend to accelerate your skill training. so, your issue is what exactly? that it's a paid service, or you can have as much sp as you want? what exactly is the grip here? we know how the system works, there's a whole devblog telling us that. I thought that part was obviously clear. If it's not to you then you probably will not understand. oh look, a condescending insult rather than a legitimate point. all you've done is whine that people can use the system - you've yet to point out why using this new system is an issue,
If you were really interested you would read the feedback in this thread and see for yourself. If for some reason you want specifically MINE then here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6100830#post6100830 |
Dave Stark
7571
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:57:30 -
[2404] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote:I'm sure someone probably already mentioned this but this is nothing short of RMT to skill up.
Basically, you get as many alts as your wallet allows. You start training them and every 5mil SP you strip their SP and inject into your main. You can basically have alt farms to win. With character bazaar or just training alts, you can gain an advantage but they're still stuck in their respective speeds, roles and skills. This is LITERALLY paying $ to accelerate skill training with no limit to it. The only limit is how much you're willing to spend to accelerate your skill training. so, your issue is what exactly? that it's a paid service, or you can have as much sp as you want? what exactly is the grip here? we know how the system works, there's a whole devblog telling us that. I thought that part was obviously clear. If it's not to you then you probably will not understand. oh look, a condescending insult rather than a legitimate point. all you've done is whine that people can use the system - you've yet to point out why using this new system is an issue, If you were really interested you would read the feedback in this thread and see for yourself. If for some reason you want specifically MINE then here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6100830#post6100830
so you think the numbers are way off, and object to it being a paid service because it's all automated.
then what numbers should be used? |
Dave Stark
7571
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 08:58:18 -
[2405] - Quote
Laodell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:darkchild's corpse wrote:the last 50 pages are just dave trolling and ppl feeding him. but if that helps to make CCP aware that this is a very sensible topic... feed him \o/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO2cHJmDkBg Effing Expert Troll he is. You have to give him points for linking an appropriately great song. :)
expert troll?
sweet summer child... |
Kitagawa Mika
The Sublimes
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 09:02:15 -
[2406] - Quote
Really cool idea, would love to see this implemented sooner rather than later. This is a good way to help new players and to make eve a viable option for new players. As it stands now, someone coming in to EVE as a new player the skill system and required time must be really daunting. I understand that older players don't like change, but I see only upside... So I welcome this idea with open arms to insure the progress and success of EVE going forward. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 09:04:53 -
[2407] - Quote
BroodAlpha wrote:Hello guys,
I'm going to go ahead and say I really dislike the premise of this change and with the diminishing returns it feels like CCP is doing this to make the lives of newbeans easier (which is cool), but this ostracizes the entire older player community. As a director of a newbean corp I would normally be in favor of a change like this but I am not.
I have been playing for a year and a half and I would not have the toons that I have right now, and the capital I earned from the Bazaar would be negligible if these proposed changes were live when I started.
1) SP on the Bazaar holds value because characters are uniquely trained. With these skillpoint sucker doo-hiccies no character is unique any more because people can just remap whatever.
2) The value of high SP characters drops through the floor due to the diminishing returns on the extractors.
3) It puts a monetary value on SP in certain ranges, meaning that players no longer decide the value of toons which was half the fun of the bazaar.
4) It removes the most stable market in the game, SP. SP was stable because you couldn't mess with it. With these proposed changes, you can.
To put this into terms for you guys I have made a lot of ISK from character sales on the Bazaar using this strategy:
1) Look for a relatively well trained toon that needs a bit of fixing up, but not too much.
2) Acquire toon for a good SP/ISK ratio (3m SP per Billion ISK)
3) Train holes in toon
4) Flip for profit
Is this possible with the new system? Not really, because rich toffs can just manipulate characters so they're perfect, meaning that unless you pump money into making sure that no SP is wasted, the value of toons drops through the floor.
One of my recent transactions netted me 15b ISK profit for doing 2 months training. This is because I put a bunch of time into learning the market, toon values and learning what skills EVE players put value in. There's also no scamming on the Bazaar so it's the safest place to invest your ISK.
I don't think anyone expected CCP to suggest messing with skill points... After this change, I will no longer be using the Bazaar.
BroodAlpha is trained almost perfectly outside of the Mining V and Gas Cloud Mining V. Do I want to be able to reallocate those SP? Sure it'd be cool, but it's NOT worth changing the entire system for and it devalues all my other toons. I task anyone to go to the Bazaar right now and find me a better trained 64m SP allround subcap toon.
tl;dr
Worst idea I've heard of since Jump Fatigue being applied to jump bridges (Remember the change was supposed to nerf capital projection, not the ability of sovholding alliances to move their subcap fleets around). So you against this idea because it will change mechanic which makes you profit. Nothing strange here. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 09:05:15 -
[2408] - Quote
@Niko. Your quotes are in italics:
I can't imagine too many players wishing to trade in real time for ISK. Each and every active account that needs ISK more than SP... For example, I have 3 accounts of which only 1 really needs SP at the moment (dread alt).
I'm sure some will but I don't think the supply will meet the demand. Supply always meets demand, by definition.
This will probably result in ridiculous prices, forcing new players to PLEX to afford this feature. A bold guess. We'll see the price. In any case, it's optional, just as trading PLEX for ISK.
As already mentioned, veterans, especially those with fat ISK or RL wallets will still be able to use this system effectively, even if they have to pay 10x what newbie does. Think again, 10x is a huge multiplier. Much easier to have several specialized sub-50M chars than wasting that much ISK on a 80M+ char.
Now that the system could be automated using game mechanics there is ZERO excuse for involving AUR or $$$ in this transaction. I'm with you on this. Still, it's optional and there are worse ways for CCP to make money. Also note that CCP profits from PLEX as well (+30% price compared to a sub).
While skill points are important, we all know that players skills are much more valuable. Instead of focusing on RMTing SP maybe we need to invest in better ways of making new players understand that. This is exactly why nobody will be 'forced' to buy SP.
Regarding the rest of your post, I agree CCP should first and foremost continue making a better game. The good part of SP-trading is that it makes SP worth less and more easily acquirable, which is really not so bad imho. I'm fine with more people in space flying proper doctrines.
Hopefully it will help a bit, give CCP more cash, and they'll use all this to make a better game.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 09:10:41 -
[2409] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Until someone counters them with some reasonable explanation I will stand by the fact that this is easily the worst decision ever since it will change fundamentals of the game for unknown expectations without helping more than minor percent of the players.
this is one for when you get back then, Don. let's start at the beginning. What fundamentals are being changed? buying/selling SP? no. we're already doing that with the character bazaar. bypassing the skill training system? no. we're already doing that with the charcter bazaar. "now we can get characters with 400m sp" - so what problem does that cause?
Anything to do with the character Bazaar is nothing like the buying and selling of pure skill points, You look whats being sold and find a toon that best suites your needs. Your taking control of someones ingame legacy and shaping it to what you want , their snapshot of time. That is a vast difference than being able to inject millions of skillpoints into creating a zero day perfect toon.
If there intention here is to purely create a new source of revenue for the game without bastardizing its core concept and longevity whilst benefiting a new player experience then the only way would be to give the new player / new character creation process the ability to create a character with say :
standard 400,000 sp free Bronze 10,000,000 sp $XXX Silver 20,000,00 sp $XXX Gold 30,000,00 sp $XXX
This way it only applies to a new character, its not sticking two fingers up at the people who supported it from day 1 and it gives a cap on how many points can be gained without destroying anything already in game like plex / aur / isk |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
31
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 09:12:08 -
[2410] - Quote
darkchild's corpse wrote:thats exactly like this other guy... "why is it a bad idea?" "it was already explained, read it" "no, i'm too lazy, your point is invalid"
yeah... thats exactly how it works... *facepalm*
These are the American Millennials. I apologize on behalf of the parents of America for releasing these creatures upon us.
|
|
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
437
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 09:19:03 -
[2411] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:so you think the numbers are way off, and object to it being a paid service because it's all automated. then what numbers should be used?
It wouldn't be as terrible if they hard cap it at say 5-10mil SP but then again it's simply not worth the bother and dev time. A player that quits EVE because he has to wait a couple of weeks to fly a certain ship will not be saved by this change. Those kind of players will simply not work out in EVE. Meanwhile there are a million things that need to be addressed (NPE included).
Bottom line is, this wont help new players, this wont help old players, this will simply continue to slowly kill the game for the reasons I mentioned in the above post. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 09:21:32 -
[2412] - Quote
Kitagawa Mika wrote:Really cool idea, would love to see this implemented sooner rather than later. This is a good way to help new players and to make eve a viable option for new players. As it stands now, someone coming in to EVE as a new player the skill system and required time must be really daunting. I understand that older players don't like change, but I see only upside... So I welcome this idea with open arms to insure the progress and success of EVE going forward. The only reason why I'm not playing at the moment is waiting while my skill traning for new activity but if I had chance to inject SP by isk investments I rather go playing and earning some isk to afford Skill Packet instead sitting on forum and doing nothing. |
Mag's
the united
20519
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 09:23:34 -
[2413] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Until someone counters them with some reasonable explanation I will stand by the fact that this is easily the worst decision ever since it will change fundamentals of the game for unknown expectations without helping more than minor percent of the players.
this is one for when you get back then, Don. let's start at the beginning. What fundamentals are being changed? buying/selling SP? no. we're already doing that with the character bazaar. bypassing the skill training system? no. we're already doing that with the charcter bazaar. "now we can get characters with 400m sp" - so what problem does that cause? Dave I'm rather amazed at your posting on this regard. You are quite a level headed chap and clued on in many respects. But I feel you're dismissing facts and inventing your own to fit your stance, in this instance.
We do not buy SP, we buy characters with all the baggage associated with them. This is why many of us are OK with the bazaar. It does not bypass the training system, as those characters had to be trained over time with the normal mechanics. The speed at which they gain that SP has a ceiling.
The fundamental difference is now we will be able to buy raw SP and inject directly. How you cannot see the difference, is rather puzzling to me. Buying raw SP is bypassing the training system for characters being injected. If I train for the first year 2 characters, then move the SP from one to the other, that's almost doubling the speed of one character. Not possible right now, so a fundamental change.
As far as 400m characters is concerned. I personally don't think this game will benefit in the long run, from the 'I want it now' crowd. If you don't see an issue with that, OK fine. But I do. For instance, FOTM is a thing and will not improve with this change.
I'm not going to argue the point with you, I've had enough of the topic. I dislike the idea and the blog just seems off to me somehow. I'm not sure why and maybe it was my initial thoughts when I first read it, that still lingers. It is an emotional topic for sure.
You ask what is wrong with it, I ask what does it fix. So far, not one person has answered that. As the onus is upon the ones wanting change, I will wait to see if anyone can justify it. I'm personally don't enjoy seeing a change like this, seemingly on a whim.
Dev: Oh let's do up the bazaar. other Dev: Tell you what, let's sell SP.
It's such a mad escalation and tangent from the first thought. It just doesn't sit well with many of us.
Anyway that's me done. I still like ya Dave, I just don't agree with your stance.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Dave Stark
7571
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 09:24:32 -
[2414] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Anything to do with the character Bazaar is nothing like the buying and selling of pure skill points, You look whats being sold and find a toon that best suites your needs. Your taking control of someones ingame legacy and shaping it to what you want , their snapshot of time. That is a vast difference than being able to inject millions of skillpoints into creating a zero day perfect toon.
If there intention here is to purely create a new source of revenue for the game without bastardizing its core concept and longevity whilst benefiting a new player experience then the only way would be to give the new player / new character creation process the ability to create a character with say :
standard 400,000 sp free Bronze 10,000,000 sp $XXX Silver 20,000,00 sp $XXX Gold 30,000,00 sp $XXX
This way it only applies to a new character, its not sticking two fingers up at the people who supported it from day 1 and it gives a cap on how many points can be gained without destroying anything already in game like plex / aur / isk
creating a perfect toon by injecting SP vs buying one that has been optimally trained has one difference; the date of birth.
buying a "legacy" is pretty much irrelevant. "but it's a corp theif" so you link the sale thread and oh - look at that, now nobody cares it was a corp theif because the legacy is irrelevant because it wasn't you. corp history, again, anything predating the sale nobody will care about. alternatively - don't buy one with a ****** history. there's more than one character on the market.
i still don't quite understand the "sticking two fingers up at people who supported the game from day 1" argument, you'll have to explain that one to me. congratulations you made a character before me.... and what? |
BroodAlpha
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 09:27:17 -
[2415] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:BroodAlpha wrote:Hello guys,
I'm going to go ahead and say I really dislike the premise of this change and with the diminishing returns it feels like CCP is doing this to make the lives of newbeans easier (which is cool), but this ostracizes the entire older player community. As a director of a newbean corp I would normally be in favor of a change like this but I am not.
I have been playing for a year and a half and I would not have the toons that I have right now, and the capital I earned from the Bazaar would be negligible if these proposed changes were live when I started.
1) SP on the Bazaar holds value because characters are uniquely trained. With these skillpoint sucker doo-hiccies no character is unique any more because people can just remap whatever.
2) The value of high SP characters drops through the floor due to the diminishing returns on the extractors.
3) It puts a monetary value on SP in certain ranges, meaning that players no longer decide the value of toons which was half the fun of the bazaar.
4) It removes the most stable market in the game, SP. SP was stable because you couldn't mess with it. With these proposed changes, you can.
To put this into terms for you guys I have made a lot of ISK from character sales on the Bazaar using this strategy:
1) Look for a relatively well trained toon that needs a bit of fixing up, but not too much.
2) Acquire toon for a good SP/ISK ratio (3m SP per Billion ISK)
3) Train holes in toon
4) Flip for profit
Is this possible with the new system? Not really, because rich toffs can just manipulate characters so they're perfect, meaning that unless you pump money into making sure that no SP is wasted, the value of toons drops through the floor.
One of my recent transactions netted me 15b ISK profit for doing 2 months training. This is because I put a bunch of time into learning the market, toon values and learning what skills EVE players put value in. There's also no scamming on the Bazaar so it's the safest place to invest your ISK.
I don't think anyone expected CCP to suggest messing with skill points... After this change, I will no longer be using the Bazaar.
BroodAlpha is trained almost perfectly outside of the Mining V and Gas Cloud Mining V. Do I want to be able to reallocate those SP? Sure it'd be cool, but it's NOT worth changing the entire system for and it devalues all my other toons. I task anyone to go to the Bazaar right now and find me a better trained 64m SP allround subcap toon.
tl;dr
Worst idea I've heard of since Jump Fatigue being applied to jump bridges (Remember the change was supposed to nerf capital projection, not the ability of sovholding alliances to move their subcap fleets around). So you against this idea because it will change mechanic which makes you profit. Nothing strange here.
A swing and a miss. I'm against the change because it removes key functionality in the game that EVERYONE is taking advantage of and makes the game interesting.
I'm also against it because remapping high SP characters (which a LOT of players have) is not effective and devalues them.
I'm a new player, I'm sure there are even more reasons why older players would dislike this change.
|
Dave Stark
7571
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 09:35:40 -
[2416] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Dave I'm rather amazed at your posting on this regard. You are quite a level headed chap and clued on in many respects. But I feel you're dismissing facts and inventing your own to fit your stance, in this instance.
We do not buy SP, we buy characters with all the baggage associated with them. This is why many of us are OK with the bazaar. It does not bypass the training system, as those characters had to be trained over time with the normal mechanics. The speed at which they gain that SP has a ceiling.
The fundamental difference is now we will be able to buy raw SP and inject directly. How you cannot see the difference, is rather puzzling to me. Buying raw SP is bypassing the training system for characters being injected. If I train for the first year 2 characters, then move the SP from one to the other, that's almost doubling the speed of one character. Not possible right now, so a fundamental change.
As far as 400m characters is concerned. I personally don't think this game will benefit in the long run, from the 'I want it now' crowd. If you don't see an issue with that, OK fine. But I do. For instance, FOTM is a thing and will not improve with this change.
I'm not going to argue the point with you, I've had enough of the topic. I dislike the idea and the blog just seems off to me somehow. I'm not sure why and maybe it was my initial thoughts when I first read it, that still lingers. It is an emotional topic for sure.
You ask what is wrong with it, I ask what does it fix. So far, not one person has answered that. As the onus is upon the ones wanting change, I will wait to see if anyone can justify it. I'm personally don't enjoy seeing a change like this, seemingly on a whim.
Dev: Oh let's do up the bazaar. other Dev: Tell you what, let's sell SP.
It's such a mad escalation and tangent from the first thought. It just doesn't sit well with many of us.
Anyway that's me done. I still like ya Dave, I just don't agree with your stance.
Hey mags, sup?
this SP ceiling, tippia mentioned that - yet when i pressed it NOBODY could come up with an answer of why if a 400m sp character sprung up tomorrow that would be an issue. could you answer that for me? the SP bazaar exactly bypasses the skill training system. "i want a character that can do X", i don't want to wait for it to train, i'll buy one - boom system bypassed.
i can see the difference, it's obvious - however the outcome remains the same so the difference in method is irrelevant. like cylcing and walking to work - you get to work job done. you start with a character with one skill set, you end with a character with a different set of skills. both systems produce the same end result.
FOTM is laughable - i've not been playing that long relative to how old eve is, and i could quite easily jump on to the fotm doctrine on this character tomorrow. if i couldn't - i'd just buy one that can. fotm bandwaggoning isn't a new thing.
what does it fix? the devblog answers that - the convoluted and awkward way the character bazaar works is what it fixes. whether it needs fixing is another matter, but that's what it fixes.
is it really that mad of an escalation though? really? how is syphoning SP from one character to inject it in to another character really any different from just training another character perfectly? time? is that it? is it the fact that it's instant? would this be better as a booster, or with a cooldown, is the instant and unlimited nature the issue then?
i'm only posting so much because i genuinely want to know what issues would cause such a negative reaction but all i keep seeing is "i don't like it" with nothing of substance to it.
it's fine to not like it, but just because you don't like something doesn't make it bad. i want to know what makes this idea bad. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
193
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 09:46:31 -
[2417] - Quote
I don't mean this as a personal attack on CCP Rise as he is a great Dev and probably the best when it comes to ship balancing and combat related stuff. But... when it comes to things like this I just don't feel like Rise and his team "get it".
After Greyscale left and a lot of the senior devs retired I feel like the core concept of eve is slowly fading out the minds of the people developing it. Thank god for Seagull at the top there and a couple of others who clearly get it, but if seagull were to leave for whatever reason I really don't have that much faith in eve being able to survive.
You may say it is unfair to pick on a single dev when the whole team is responsible, but the truth is these devs are the lead devs, and so the others follow them. This should have been a case where some bright spark came up with this absolute car crash of an idea and Rise shot it down before even wasting any more time on it.
Don't get me wrong CCP Rise is great when it comes to his specialist area, but when he has ventured into stuff like this and also into the new player related stuff I feel things have been taking backward step (also I still can't forgive him for releasing mordus upon us, but all the other good ship balancing work makes up for that).
Personally I think Seagull really need to imprint on the minds of the devs and also the playerbase what it means to play eve and the core concepts. This idea has taken us all by surprise to some degree and a mistake like this should not have even reached the drawing board.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 09:49:21 -
[2418] - Quote
Mag's wrote:You ask what is wrong with it, I ask what does it fix. So far, not one person has answered that. As the onus is upon the ones wanting change, I will wait to see if anyone can justify it. I'm personally don't enjoy seeing a change like this, seemingly on a whim. I was initially opposed, now I'm open and curious. Here's my take.
After 12 years, there's an SP imbalance in the game. Some chars have more than they need (me on my alts, for example, even though I'm just playing since 2 years), newbros have less than they need (to play with the big boys).
You may or may not think that players absolutely MUST (forever, until the servers go dark) wait an year (or whatever it takes) to fly, say, a well (not even perfectly) trained T3 cruiser. Personally, I don't care much. If you do, you'll hate this change, period.
But if you think training faster is not a big issue, or can even be a good thing, then CCP is simply proposing to apply the PLEX system to SP:
you will be able to trade SP by paying CCP some extra cash, just as you can trade game time by paying CCP some extra cash (PLEX costs more than a sub)
Hence SP (like ISK or gametime) is not created out of thin air, the players can trade it among themselves like PLEX.
The main SP flow I'm thinking of is people with extra ISK or $ giving ISK for SP to people that don't need to train all their alts at full speed. Sounds not so bad, after all...
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Gassner
Katholische Pfruendepachtstelle
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 09:51:37 -
[2419] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: ... it's fine to not like it, but just because you don't like something doesn't make it bad. i want to know what makes this idea bad.
It would completely flatten the barriers to buy oneself into the game compared to Character Bazaar trading, which is already PTW but that is sort-of OK because of the already mentioned inconveniences. Total time trained in game would not change, but because of the age of the game the market would get flooded with SP, as everyone would cash in some alt SPs the moment this bold idea goes live.
They could as well just sell the SPs from npc market orders or for aurum. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 09:55:45 -
[2420] - Quote
Gassner wrote:Dave Stark wrote: ... it's fine to not like it, but just because you don't like something doesn't make it bad. i want to know what makes this idea bad.
It would completely flatten the barriers to buy oneself into the game compared to Character Bazaar trading, which is already PTW but that is sort-of OK because of the already mentioned inconveniences. Total time trained in game would not change, but because of the age of the game the market would get flooded with SP, as everyone would cash in his alt SPs the moment this bold idea goes live. Note that people that cash in their alt's SPs would get to play for free...
Why is this bad? When you roam looking for a decent-value (T2 cruisers and above) fleet to shoot at, would you prefer more targets or less? Do you even ever think about how 'EVE-old' are the guys you're fighting?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 09:57:55 -
[2421] - Quote
BroodAlpha wrote:General Lootit wrote:BroodAlpha wrote:Hello guys,
I'm going to go ahead and say I really dislike the premise of this change and with the diminishing returns it feels like CCP is doing this to make the lives of newbeans easier (which is cool), but this ostracizes the entire older player community. As a director of a newbean corp I would normally be in favor of a change like this but I am not.
I have been playing for a year and a half and I would not have the toons that I have right now, and the capital I earned from the Bazaar would be negligible if these proposed changes were live when I started.
1) SP on the Bazaar holds value because characters are uniquely trained. With these skillpoint sucker doo-hiccies no character is unique any more because people can just remap whatever.
2) The value of high SP characters drops through the floor due to the diminishing returns on the extractors.
3) It puts a monetary value on SP in certain ranges, meaning that players no longer decide the value of toons which was half the fun of the bazaar.
4) It removes the most stable market in the game, SP. SP was stable because you couldn't mess with it. With these proposed changes, you can.
To put this into terms for you guys I have made a lot of ISK from character sales on the Bazaar using this strategy:
1) Look for a relatively well trained toon that needs a bit of fixing up, but not too much.
2) Acquire toon for a good SP/ISK ratio (3m SP per Billion ISK)
3) Train holes in toon
4) Flip for profit
Is this possible with the new system? Not really, because rich toffs can just manipulate characters so they're perfect, meaning that unless you pump money into making sure that no SP is wasted, the value of toons drops through the floor.
One of my recent transactions netted me 15b ISK profit for doing 2 months training. This is because I put a bunch of time into learning the market, toon values and learning what skills EVE players put value in. There's also no scamming on the Bazaar so it's the safest place to invest your ISK.
I don't think anyone expected CCP to suggest messing with skill points... After this change, I will no longer be using the Bazaar.
BroodAlpha is trained almost perfectly outside of the Mining V and Gas Cloud Mining V. Do I want to be able to reallocate those SP? Sure it'd be cool, but it's NOT worth changing the entire system for and it devalues all my other toons. I task anyone to go to the Bazaar right now and find me a better trained 64m SP allround subcap toon.
tl;dr
Worst idea I've heard of since Jump Fatigue being applied to jump bridges (Remember the change was supposed to nerf capital projection, not the ability of sovholding alliances to move their subcap fleets around). So you against this idea because it will change mechanic which makes you profit. Nothing strange here. A swing and a miss. I'm against the change because it removes key functionality in the game that EVERYONE is taking advantage of and makes the game interesting. I'm also against it because remapping high SP characters (which a LOT of players have) is not effective and devalues them. I'm a new player, I'm sure there are even more reasons why older players would dislike this change. I assume that the key reason to like or dislike something is personall one in most cases. In your case it is unnesasry adaptation to the new system because old one already makes you isks and this change could hurt to your business model.
Waiting while your skill tranning is not interesting thing at all. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 09:58:37 -
[2422] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Anything to do with the character Bazaar is nothing like the buying and selling of pure skill points, You look whats being sold and find a toon that best suites your needs. Your taking control of someones ingame legacy and shaping it to what you want , their snapshot of time. That is a vast difference than being able to inject millions of skillpoints into creating a zero day perfect toon.
If there intention here is to purely create a new source of revenue for the game without bastardizing its core concept and longevity whilst benefiting a new player experience then the only way would be to give the new player / new character creation process the ability to create a character with say :
standard 400,000 sp free Bronze 10,000,000 sp $XXX Silver 20,000,00 sp $XXX Gold 30,000,00 sp $XXX
This way it only applies to a new character, its not sticking two fingers up at the people who supported it from day 1 and it gives a cap on how many points can be gained without destroying anything already in game like plex / aur / isk creating a perfect toon by injecting SP vs buying one that has been optimally trained has one difference; the date of birth. buying a "legacy" is pretty much irrelevant. "but it's a corp theif" so you link the sale thread and oh - look at that, now nobody cares it was a corp theif because the legacy is irrelevant because it wasn't you. corp history, again, anything predating the sale nobody will care about. alternatively - don't buy one with a ****** history. there's more than one character on the market. i still don't quite understand the "sticking two fingers up at people who supported the game from day 1" argument, you'll have to explain that one to me. congratulations you made a character before me.... and what?
The sticking two fingers up part refers to : 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added /// So ive played the game for 9 years had upto 3/4 accounts running so someone comes along maybe stays for a month or 2 but gets 500,000 for the same $-ú$ and i get shafted ...... Thats not unfair ???
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:06:30 -
[2423] - Quote
Gassner wrote:They could as well just sell the SPs from npc market orders or for aurum. Why do you think a system that creates SP out of thin air would be better than the proposed one, that gives SP to player A only if there is a player B willing to give his SP for ISK and, potentially, game time?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dave Stark
7574
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:06:51 -
[2424] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:The sticking two fingers up part refers to : 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added /// So ive played the game for 9 years had upto 3/4 accounts running so someone comes along maybe stays for a month or 2 but gets 500,000 for the same $-ú$ and i get shafted ...... Thats not unfair ???
at 80m SP he gets the same 50k from a packet too.
that restriction is on the character's SP not the age of the account.
if you create a new character on the account you'd get the same 500,000 sp. |
159Pinky
Under Heavy Fire Mordus Angels
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:07:18 -
[2425] - Quote
Kitagawa Mika wrote:Really cool idea, would love to see this implemented sooner rather than later. This is a good way to help new players and to make eve a viable option for new players. As it stands now, someone coming in to EVE as a new player the skill system and required time must be really daunting. I understand that older players don't like change, but I see only upside... So I welcome this idea with open arms to insure the progress and success of EVE going forward.
So, where will new players get the isk to buy this? Not by playing cause it'll be expensive. So they'll have to buy plex with real money. If you feel like this "pay to play" is good, then yeah: this is good for new players. |
Chirality Tisteloin
Zervas Aeronautics The Bastion
62
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:09:24 -
[2426] - Quote
Here are my two cents to the various concerns that have been voiced:
- This will diminish the attachment to my characters / devalue the sense of unique history and achievement that is embodied in the skill set: For me the big change there was the removal of the skill queue cap. When I started EVE, the daily, later weekly, skill queue management was instrumental in making me log in. At that time I thought the whole training scheme was super clever for that very reason. With hundreds of days in my queues this motivator is gone and I can see players let their new characters just sit there and accumulate sp without logging them in. People who want to roleplay their characters' development still will be able to do that.
- This can be abused to create super powers: I have not seen ways to abuse the system that would not already be possible in one way or another with plex, alts and the bazaar.
- We won't be able to tell the skill level by looking at character age: This is indeed a plus in my book. It'd be great news if you need to be a bit more careful when engaging a young character. You'd actually need to observe their behaviour instead of just clicking show-info.
- The bazaar was a good market that would be destroyed: Can't say anything on that since I never tried to use it, let alone make isk off it.
- Monetisation through peer pressure: This made me very uncomfortable at first. But once I realized that it is the extraction of skillpoints from a character that costs aurum and not the consumption of the skill package, these concerns were largely calmed.
So at the moment I am pretty positive about the change.
What I would like to see is some twist, rooted in the game world. Maybe there is a fun way how messing with ones' head could have some effects on your mental health. I am more thinking of perks than serious penalties. Maybe there is something that can be tied into the storyline and the changes to implants that have been hinted at in the past. Simply adding something like "This character had her neural pathways significantly disrupted by repeated skill injections and is going to collapse soon." to the character description could also appease the people who fear the diminished intel.
See you at my blog: http://spindensity.wordpress.com/
|
Gassner
Katholische Pfruendepachtstelle
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:11:55 -
[2427] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Note that people that cash in their alt's SPs would get to play for free...
Why is this bad? When you roam looking for a decent-value (T2 cruisers and above) fleet to shoot at, would you prefer more targets or less? Do you even ever think about how 'EVE-old' are the guys you're fighting?
Because giving me more shiny stuff to shoot at also diminishes the value of a single quality kill i managed to hunt down on myself. Especially if there are high chances my adversary was able to acquire his assets and skills with way less effort ($) than me or another pilot (time).
|
Asveron Durr
Vandanian Order
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:13:21 -
[2428] - Quote
Here is something to consider since this skill idea will not assist younger/newer players.......
First few days or coupleof weeks are fine maybe......
But then space rich guy and his few friends ensure they drop their PLEX hoard(some of it) into aurum. Then purchase the skill extractors.... Then use them on characters they have not been using in a long time....
And only after they have begin snapping up the skill injectors off the market....
Calculations between aurum/plex differences/worth, and equivelancy of RL Money will: Allow for market manipulation and control, effetively making it impossible for new players to purchase these injectors....
Eventually the plex is much higher than it is today and the Injecotrs will be soon enough in the range of 500million to 1 billion ISK themselves also.....
This will make the idea into "Golden Ammo" as the only ones able to use it at that point would be those that spend REAL cash on plex or even aurum...because the ISK market is for all intents an purposes in the control of players....and mostly veterans at that. I could do it....and I am sure the the other EvE moguls out there are thinking of it.....
In effect i predict in a few short months of being implemented as currently stated this "skill idea" becomes a point of RMT and enslavement for new players to established organizations that will setup a way to exploit the "i have to have it now" crowd.
It will fail as valuable change in the game...... an as one person said once already....when a newer player quits he will pass on the knowledge: 1.) you have to spend $15 to subscribe 2.) then buy a plex to cash in to purchase the skill injectors $20 2a.) or buy aurum to get as many skill extractors as possible $20 3.) you will also have to fork over $20 for a plex to train a 2nd character or $15 for a character on another account
Just to be effective......and that is how the "i want it now" crowd will think and behave.... Bad reviews and word of mouth that EvE will cost approx $30 - $60 every month or every other month or so to be competitive will destroy player retention more so than now. It will no longer be seen as the $15 per month subscription game by a greater number of people than many realize. It will be seen as a PAY TO WIN game on par with many others, but more expensive.
And this is not including the fact of those that may buy plex for ISk to get the ships they will be able to fly after injections only to lose them faster because they have no practical experience how to truly play this game.
CCP promised us no "Golden Ammo" ideas, they practically promised us they would not establish a money grab scheme like so many other games do or have done, and some of those have failed os miserably they are either stagnant as well in player numbers or do not exsist anymore.
IF Hilmar and compant really wish to kill off one of Icelands top income makers....then who are we to stop them. But if they are looking to truly see EvE last a full decade at full steam ahead they would be well advised to reconsider this idea. Veteran Players will scheme and break everything you introduce into this game.....becaue that is what we do, this is no different except you will be literally handing over the keys to your finances and ability to grow this time in ways you simply do not unable fathom at this point. Might as well go public and start letting veteran players buy actual CCP stock. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:14:10 -
[2429] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:The sticking two fingers up part refers to : 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added /// So ive played the game for 9 years had upto 3/4 accounts running so someone comes along maybe stays for a month or 2 but gets 500,000 for the same $-ú$ and i get shafted ...... Thats not unfair ???
at 80m SP he gets the same 50k from a packet too. that restriction is on the character's SP not the age of the account. if you create a new character on the account you'd get the same 500,000 sp.
So what is the whole exercise for then ????
Is it for the benefit of new character creation or to add yet another game straining microtransaction that has nothing todo with the bazaar in itself but to afford old characters the potential to max their toons by using RMT |
Dave Stark
7574
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:14:34 -
[2430] - Quote
159Pinky wrote:Kitagawa Mika wrote:Really cool idea, would love to see this implemented sooner rather than later. This is a good way to help new players and to make eve a viable option for new players. As it stands now, someone coming in to EVE as a new player the skill system and required time must be really daunting. I understand that older players don't like change, but I see only upside... So I welcome this idea with open arms to insure the progress and success of EVE going forward. So, where will new players get the isk to buy this? Not by playing cause it'll be expensive. So they'll have to buy plex with real money. If you feel like this "pay to play" is good, then yeah: this is good for new players.
i feel that could be solved by doing dropping everything by a factor of 10.
a skill packet costing 30m vs 300m. that's a huge difference. for a new player 30m isn't a seemingly insurmountable amount of isk. 300 is.
i remember 100m was a milestone and frankly a bit of a struggle, so trying to reach 300? oh god.. 30m, not so much. |
|
Gassner
Katholische Pfruendepachtstelle
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:15:26 -
[2431] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Gassner wrote:They could as well just sell the SPs from npc market orders or for aurum. Why do you think a system that creates SP out of thin air would be better than the proposed one, that gives SP to player A only if there is a player B willing to give his SP for ISK and, potentially, game time?
Well, read again. I'm in no way proposing that. There would be just so much SP on the market, it would not matter if they came from alts or thin air. The game is over 12yrs old, there are way too many alts, boom. |
Dave stark
7575
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:17:28 -
[2432] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:The sticking two fingers up part refers to : 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added /// So ive played the game for 9 years had upto 3/4 accounts running so someone comes along maybe stays for a month or 2 but gets 500,000 for the same $-ú$ and i get shafted ...... Thats not unfair ???
at 80m SP he gets the same 50k from a packet too. that restriction is on the character's SP not the age of the account. if you create a new character on the account you'd get the same 500,000 sp. So what is the whole exercise for then ???? Is it for the benefit of new character creation or to add yet another game straining microtransaction that has nothing todo with the bazaar in itself but to afford old characters the potential to max their toons by using RMT
according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:18:11 -
[2433] - Quote
Gassner wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Note that people that cash in their alt's SPs would get to play for free...
Why is this bad? When you roam looking for a decent-value (T2 cruisers and above) fleet to shoot at, would you prefer more targets or less? Do you even ever think about how 'EVE-old' are the guys you're fighting?
Because giving me more shiny stuff to shoot at also diminishes the value of a single quality kill i managed to hunt down on myself. Especially if there are high chances my adversary was able to acquire his assets and skills with way less effort ($) than me or another pilot (time). Fair enough, though I think, generally speaking, most people would prefer more populated space.
Note that the ISK-value, and the corresponding time it took someone to mine minerals, PI stuff, moon goo and build that shiny ship stays the same though.
Also I'm proud when I kill a capable pilot, not a high-SP pilot (I never check).
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Aesther Hert
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:20:06 -
[2434] - Quote
I like this idea. Gives more freedom hence more fun to the game and remove some of the too rigid rules. It'll also remove this "vet" "noob" segregation and give the game a real sandbox feel. And not "skill queue online".
But I also understand that it upsets some vets. |
Dave stark
7575
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:20:47 -
[2435] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Also I'm proud when I kill a capable pilot, not a high-SP pilot (I never check).
probably because past a certain level of SP, it's completely irrelevant (which is why i honestly don't see how a 400m sp character appearing tomorrow would be bad) |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:21:35 -
[2436] - Quote
Gassner wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Gassner wrote:They could as well just sell the SPs from npc market orders or for aurum. Why do you think a system that creates SP out of thin air would be better than the proposed one, that gives SP to player A only if there is a player B willing to give his SP for ISK and, potentially, game time? Well, read again. I'm in no way proposing that. There would be just so much SP on the market, it would not matter if they came from alts or thin air. The game is over 12yrs old, there are way too many alts, boom. I see what you mean, but you're making the same mistake 99% of the posters are making: looking at it only from the buyer's perspective.
What about all the ISK flow from buyers to sellers? Sellers being, as you say and I agree, a very large chunk of the EVE population.
It's funny, people seem so attached to SP accumulation they're overlooking the opportunites to sell unnecessary SP.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Integra Arkanheld
Andorra Paradis Fiscal
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:22:49 -
[2437] - Quote
I have not been playing at EVE for many months now, but I keep the character and continue the training so when I come back to the game (and I will come back), I have more skills and I have not lost time. I can use some PLEX to make some cash and continue the game as if I had been playing. If you implement this new ability to buy skill points, instead of paying to maintain the account, I will simply cancel the account. If I come back to the game, I only need to sell a few millions SP (now I have 197M), and only keep the useful skills. Why will people continue to train skills if they have "finished" the character? The only use for more skills will be to sell them for more isk instead of trying to have everything. It will be better to have several 50M (or even 80M) specialized characters than one 200+ M character. If you implement this, most old characters will be dismantled into smaller characters, and old players will sell all the new SPs they will be doing. Right now, a new player is limited, but after several months, he can become a useful character. Old players are not so much more powerful as the only thing they gain is more and more useless skills. Yet they continue at the game because they love their main character, and like to see it growth. With this new system, players will plan specialized characters of 50M SPs, and make them. Once they are finished, they will sell the extra SPs to pay for PLEXs and play for free. Many players will also stop playing the game as they may feel that the have finished it once they have made all the different styles of characters. One of the problems with this system is that all characters will be identical. Everyone will want to use the same 50M SP plan for the same role, so for example all miners will be the same characters with the same skills, and so on with traders, industrials, haulers, small ships pilots, big ships pilots and capital pilots.
What might be useful to do is: -be able to change the character name -be able to change the character physical appearance, -be able to redistribute some skill points (losing for example 25% of them in the process) to others skills. You do this removing a trained skill that you no longer want and recovering the 75% of its value in unallocated SPs to reuse yourself (Never for selling) -be able to remove the implants -be able to remap the skills -have this be available like the neural remap once per year for free, or paying with aurum once per 3 months for example.
Be careful with what you do as it might have a very big impact in the game. |
a25639
Aliastra Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:23:08 -
[2438] - Quote
Some people seem to be afraid that this feature would allow rich players to get alts with like 400m sp, which is more than what you could buy on the character bazaar. IGÇÖd like to explain why thatGÇÖs not a problem.
What people donGÇÖt seem to realise is that there is only a limited amount of combat skills. You need approximately 150m sp to get at least level 4 skills for every available combat ship and module. Once you have that many sp you can continue to train barely useful level 5 combat skills until you have approximately 290m sp. At that point you will have nothing left to train but completely useless skills.
We have long passed the time where characters with 150m combat sp began to be available on the character bazaar and in 1 or 2 years even characters with 290m combat sp will become more common on the character bazaar.
If you want to have a high sp combat character now you can get it on the character bazaar. If you want to have a high sp combat character after this feature is released you would still get it from the character bazaar because it will be much cheaper than using skill packets. The diminishing returns are not only a great sp sink but they also protect the value of high sp characters.
In the end it will cost a shitload of ISK to push your character to 400m sp and the only advantage you get is the possibility to use your combat pilot also for mining. Who cares?
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1748
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:25:13 -
[2439] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:This "plan" has nothing to do with alt recycling of any kind. It simply shows how you can basically create free alts on accounts who are always subscribed because they are part of an SP farm. This is interesting for ganking because of the limited skills needed there. I misunderstood your original post. Thanks for the clarification. From what you said: Quote:since the SP you produce by consuming this PLEX will always sell for more than they cost to produce this way You're saying SP is a commodity that will always retain its value (in fact its value will always closely follow the value of the most valuable commodity in the game now, which is PLEX). This commodity will be able to be earned by anyone:
- With a character with at least 5M SP
- 100% passively
- Without any interference from market forces that are faced by by all other passive income in the game, like PI or Industry
But something is off about your math. Specifically:
- You can only sell 4 skill packets "per month" (since the SP alt will only gain 2M SP/month at max)
- To sell 4 skill packets, you have to purchase 4 extractors with AUR or ISK
- In order to PLEX your account you will have to earn as much ISK as 1 PLEX + 4 Extractors
I don't see it happening. It does not really matter what is needed to create the packs, since it is the same stuff everyone will have to use to create such a pack.
The only thing I can see that maybe is off whit my idea is that the amount of people doing this is so high that the market get saturated. In this case you would have to sell packs at a lower price and it would not pay the full subscription.
Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ.
You could make an argument that this is already possible with the character bazzar and in a way it is. But it takes a lot of planing and effort to get those toons sold and this is why only a couple of people do it. This will completely change with the SP pack system.
Something else:
You did not address my concern that this will look to a new player like a classical F2P paywall. Do you think this is not an issue and why do you think it isn't one?
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:27:11 -
[2440] - Quote
159Pinky wrote:Kitagawa Mika wrote:Really cool idea, would love to see this implemented sooner rather than later. This is a good way to help new players and to make eve a viable option for new players. As it stands now, someone coming in to EVE as a new player the skill system and required time must be really daunting. I understand that older players don't like change, but I see only upside... So I welcome this idea with open arms to insure the progress and success of EVE going forward. So, where will new players get the isk to buy this? Not by playing cause it'll be expensive. So they'll have to buy plex with real money. If you feel like this "pay to play" is good, then yeah: this is good for new players. I can afford that. In FW earning rate is about 75kk per hour on trial account. So if Packet will be cost around 1/4 of PLEX (assuming that farming rate is 2000k SP per month so 500k SP is 1/4 of month) I need 4 hour to buy Packet which worth 1 week of traning. |
|
Dave Stark
7576
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:28:29 -
[2441] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ.
unless the margins are 100% or better (which i seriously doubt) if you're doing it purely to make isk rather than offset the cost of having the account... you're better off just straight up selling plex. |
Devils Fighter
Paradox Collective Project.Mayhem.
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:28:37 -
[2442] - Quote
I can't understand why people are complaining about P2W. Buying PLEX to buy characters is something new players already do! This just makes it more granular and actually they will probably spend less on buying PLEX as they don't have to buy the whole character with lots of excess skills or pay a premium to buy a very focussed character.
I am concerned that newer players might be shoe-horned in to joining the bigger alliances if they are offering free skill packets as a recruitment incentive. Not a bad thing in itself but a bit of diversity and incentive to join smaller corps and alliances only adds to the game.
CCP might need to rethink T3 skill losses as they'll not really be a penality under this system - perhaps a delay of a day before you are able to apply unallocated SP to the skill that was lost? |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:29:57 -
[2443] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:159Pinky wrote:Kitagawa Mika wrote:Really cool idea, would love to see this implemented sooner rather than later. This is a good way to help new players and to make eve a viable option for new players. As it stands now, someone coming in to EVE as a new player the skill system and required time must be really daunting. I understand that older players don't like change, but I see only upside... So I welcome this idea with open arms to insure the progress and success of EVE going forward. So, where will new players get the isk to buy this? Not by playing cause it'll be expensive. So they'll have to buy plex with real money. If you feel like this "pay to play" is good, then yeah: this is good for new players. I can afford that. In FW earning rate is about 75kk per hour on trial account. So if Packet will be cost around 1/4 of PLEX (assuming that farming rate is 2000k SP per month so 500k SP is 1/4 of month) I need 4 hour to buy Packet which worth 1 week of traning. I believe it will cost less. If people sell SP from their alts, they don't necessarily need to get the 'farming' SP/PLEX rate, because they'd pay the PLEX (or sub) anyway to actually play with their alts.
Not saying 'SP you don't need is free' (like 'minerals you mine are free' LOL), but it's certainly worth less than a full PLEX per month.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Sean Crees
Sean's Safe Haven
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:32:17 -
[2444] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img] The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside. Please also read this reminder on our forum rules ~ ISD Decoy
Are you looking to deploy this in on 3 November 2015, or mid December, or is this a longer term thing?
I'm getting really close to 50mil SP, and if that's going to be the first major soft cap, i'd REALLY like this feature before i hit that mark. :) |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1748
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:36:17 -
[2445] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ. unless the margins are 100% or better (which i seriously doubt) if you're doing it purely to make isk rather than offset the cost of having the account... you're better off just straight up selling plex. The point is not to make ISK. The point is if I have an account where I don't need anymore SP because it's perfectly focus trained for what it does I can just sell the accumulated SP as packs to lower the subscription costs.
There are two possibilities here:
- If I can sell them higher that what it takes to create the pack (PLEX + extractors) I can create a free account with zero effort.
- If I have to sell lower that what it takes to create them all the people training while taking a break will make a better deal if they just cancel the subscription and buy some packs if they come back
(Yes, there may be some space between the two possibilities depending on how expensive the extractors are.)
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Dave Stark
7576
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:38:49 -
[2446] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ. unless the margins are 100% or better (which i seriously doubt) if you're doing it purely to make isk rather than offset the cost of having the account... you're better off just straight up selling plex. The point is not to make ISK. The point is if I have an account where I don't need anymore SP because it's perfectly focus trained for what it does I can just sell the accumulated SP as packs to lower the subscription costs. There are two possibilities here: - If I can sell them higher that what it takes to create the pack (PLEX + extractors) I can create a free account with zero effort. - If I have to sell lower that what it takes to create them all the people training while taking a break will make a better deal if they just cancel the subscription and buy some packs if they come back (Yes, there may be some space between the two possibilities depending on how expensive the extractors are.)
oh right when you said "massive income" i thought you were using it to make pure profit rather than offsetting the cost of the subscription. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1748
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:42:34 -
[2447] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ. unless the margins are 100% or better (which i seriously doubt) if you're doing it purely to make isk rather than offset the cost of having the account... you're better off just straight up selling plex. The point is not to make ISK. The point is if I have an account where I don't need anymore SP because it's perfectly focus trained for what it does I can just sell the accumulated SP as packs to lower the subscription costs. There are two possibilities here: - If I can sell them higher that what it takes to create the pack (PLEX + extractors) I can create a free account with zero effort. - If I have to sell lower that what it takes to create them all the people training while taking a break will make a better deal if they just cancel the subscription and buy some packs if they come back (Yes, there may be some space between the two possibilities depending on how expensive the extractors are.) oh right when you said "massive income" i thought you were using it to make pure profit rather than offsetting the cost of the subscription. The "massive income" was in the context of the pack consumer IIRC, since PLEX prices will skyrocket and a new player will not be able to get a pack or a PLEX for ISK.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:44:20 -
[2448] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:General Lootit wrote:159Pinky wrote:Kitagawa Mika wrote:Really cool idea, would love to see this implemented sooner rather than later. This is a good way to help new players and to make eve a viable option for new players. As it stands now, someone coming in to EVE as a new player the skill system and required time must be really daunting. I understand that older players don't like change, but I see only upside... So I welcome this idea with open arms to insure the progress and success of EVE going forward. So, where will new players get the isk to buy this? Not by playing cause it'll be expensive. So they'll have to buy plex with real money. If you feel like this "pay to play" is good, then yeah: this is good for new players. I can afford that. In FW earning rate is about 75kk per hour on trial account. So if Packet will be cost around 1/4 of PLEX (assuming that farming rate is 2000k SP per month so 500k SP is 1/4 of month) I need 4 hour to buy Packet which worth 1 week of traning. I believe it will cost less. If people sell SP from their alts, they don't necessarily need to get the 'farming' SP/PLEX rate, because they'd pay the PLEX (or sub) anyway to actually play with their alts. Not saying 'SP you don't need is free' (like 'minerals you mine are free' LOL), but it's certainly worth less than a full PLEX per month. Market will show. |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
177
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:00:11 -
[2449] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Laodell wrote:A single CSM a majority does not make. i'm aware but even one supporting it means that the csm are not "universally against it" as you said. Which means that CCP is longer functioning in unison and is becoming divided. Which is not good for other reasons. Hopefully the majority with eve best interest in mind would prevail and axe this cancerous idea before it manifest itself into the actually game. If it does then Eve would slowly but surely die. Is there a time table when this is suppose to hit or is this still up for debate?
CSM is not part of CCP, it is a separate entity said to represent the players. Which anyone following their public presence may dubt they actually represent all kinds of players.
CCP themselves, for better or worse, usually take action in a certain way despite player whine or apocaliptic thinking. At least that gives hope that this idea if implemented, wont actually be so harmful as it could in the hands of a company like blizzard or Arena.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
153
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:02:39 -
[2450] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ. unless the margins are 100% or better (which i seriously doubt) if you're doing it purely to make isk rather than offset the cost of having the account... you're better off just straight up selling plex. The point is not to make ISK. The point is if I have an account where I don't need anymore SP because it's perfectly focus trained for what it does I can just sell the accumulated SP as packs to lower the subscription costs. There are two possibilities here: - If I can sell them higher that what it takes to create the pack (PLEX + extractors) I can create a free account with zero effort. - If I have to sell lower that what it takes to create them all the people training while taking a break will make a better deal if they just cancel the subscription and buy some packs if they come back (Yes, there may be some space between the two possibilities depending on how expensive the extractors are.)
Plex cost 1.2 bill isk, this transneural package containing 2 mill SP is gonna sell for how much?
|
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:03:00 -
[2451] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Until someone counters them with some reasonable explanation I will stand by the fact that this is easily the worst decision ever since it will change fundamentals of the game for unknown expectations without helping more than minor percent of the players.
this is one for when you get back then, Don. let's start at the beginning. What fundamentals are being changed? buying/selling SP? no. we're already doing that with the character bazaar. bypassing the skill training system? no. we're already doing that with the charcter bazaar. "now we can get characters with 400m sp" - so what problem does that cause? Dave I'm rather amazed at your posting on this regard. You are quite a level headed chap and clued on in many respects. But I feel you're dismissing facts and inventing your own to fit your stance, in this instance. We do not buy SP, we buy characters with all the baggage associated with them. This is why many of us are OK with the bazaar. It does not bypass the training system, as those characters had to be trained over time with the normal mechanics. The speed at which they gain that SP has a ceiling. The fundamental difference is now we will be able to buy raw SP and inject directly. How you cannot see the difference, is rather puzzling to me. Buying raw SP is bypassing the training system for characters being injected. If I train for the first year 2 characters, then move the SP from one to the other, that's almost doubling the speed of one character. Not possible right now, so a fundamental change. As far as 400m characters is concerned. I personally don't think this game will benefit in the long run, from the 'I want it now' crowd. If you don't see an issue with that, OK fine. But I do. For instance, FOTM is a thing and will not improve with this change. I'm not going to argue the point with you, I've had enough of the topic. I dislike the idea and the blog just seems off to me somehow. I'm not sure why and maybe it was my initial thoughts when I first read it, that still lingers. It is an emotional topic for sure. You ask what is wrong with it, I ask what does it fix. So far, not one person has answered that. As the onus is upon the ones wanting change, I will wait to see if anyone can justify it. I'm personally don't enjoy seeing a change like this, seemingly on a whim. Dev: Oh let's do up the bazaar. other Dev: Tell you what, let's sell SP. It's such a mad escalation and tangent from the first thought. It just doesn't sit well with many of us. Anyway that's me done. I still like ya Dave, I just don't agree with your stance.
I give you my personal reason why it must be implemented. I need a better way than bazaar to exchange my isks for SP. Now I waiting while skill traning happens to change my in-game activity. I rather play more to earn isks for Packet than wait but bazaar not an option for me. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:08:29 -
[2452] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:The sticking two fingers up part refers to : 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added /// So ive played the game for 9 years had upto 3/4 accounts running so someone comes along maybe stays for a month or 2 but gets 500,000 for the same $-ú$ and i get shafted ...... Thats not unfair ???
at 80m SP he gets the same 50k from a packet too. that restriction is on the character's SP not the age of the account. if you create a new character on the account you'd get the same 500,000 sp. So what is the whole exercise for then ???? Is it for the benefit of new character creation or to add yet another game straining microtransaction that has nothing todo with the bazaar in itself but to afford old characters the potential to max their toons by using RMT according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control.
When your were seeking an answer i gave it you now you quote a line, i meant your take on it. I always took it in eve that certain area's were sacrosanct and now it seems not.
How will this effect a new player in anyway shape or form, except for him to spend real money to advance instantly. I agree with you that having a 400m sp toon has no bearing on anyones ability to pilot a ship no different than someone with 150m sp but to what end its not been earned, The size of the wallet should not dictate the class of the pilot.
In what way is this helping to boost the flagging sub base, its just taking money away from an already jaded one. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1799
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:10:20 -
[2453] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ. unless the margins are 100% or better (which i seriously doubt) if you're doing it purely to make isk rather than offset the cost of having the account... you're better off just straight up selling plex. The point is not to make ISK. The point is if I have an account where I don't need anymore SP because it's perfectly focus trained for what it does I can just sell the accumulated SP as packs to lower the subscription costs. There are two possibilities here: - If I can sell them higher that what it takes to create the pack (PLEX + extractors) I can create a free account with zero effort. - If I have to sell lower that what it takes to create them all the people training while taking a break will make a better deal if they just cancel the subscription and buy some packs if they come back (Yes, there may be some space between the two possibilities depending on how expensive the extractors are.) Ima is right. Medium-term, skill packet prices worth a month's worth of SP will stabilize just below those of a PLEX. There is after all, only one source of new SP and that is paying for a month's worth of game time. This is massive buff to multi-boxers who multiplex characters that do not require continued training. Ganking alts, mining alts, PI alts, industry/research alts, etc. will all be essentially free-to-play, or certainly only cost a fraction of a PLEX to keep running for a month.
This is perhaps the most worrisome aspect of this change. This will have profound effects on the economy and a massive proliferation in extra accounts.
On the plus side, this change coupled with the recent buff in skill points is a huge boon to the New Order and other highsec gankers. Using the trial period and the free PLEX for a buddy account, you can almost have a near max DPS 5M SP Catalyst ganking alt for free which you can then run indefinitely, also for near free, by harvesting the SP each month. Free gank alts for everyone, and as many as your machine can run at one time, should make our job of bringing highsec into compliance that much easier. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
80
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:20:02 -
[2454] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:No worries, I am not referring to that "history" post but to posts with numerous arguments and expectations like 50 and 70 pages ago. Until someone counters them with some reasonable explanation I will stand by the fact that this is easily the worst decision ever since it will change fundamentals of the game for unknown expectations without helping more than minor percent of the players. Did you consider the fact that every single subscribed account will be able to get ISK for any and all not needed SP? And that SP accumulates constantly? That means that potentially 100% of EVE players can grind less for ISK (and/or PLEX), provided obviously that on the other side there are ISK- (and/or cash-) rich players willing to buy SP.
I can see it happen in minor amounts among regular players ie non farms which are going to be used for this.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Dave Stark
7576
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:20:19 -
[2455] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Plex cost 1.2 bill isk, this transneural package containing 2 mill SP is gonna sell for how much?
well the "cost" to produce one package containing 500,000sp will be 300m of game time at current plex prices - plus whatever the extractor costs which is currently unknown.
so for 2m SP you need 4 of those - and that's assuming you're not injecting it in a character that's going to suffer from diminishing returns. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1749
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:23:41 -
[2456] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ. unless the margins are 100% or better (which i seriously doubt) if you're doing it purely to make isk rather than offset the cost of having the account... you're better off just straight up selling plex. The point is not to make ISK. The point is if I have an account where I don't need anymore SP because it's perfectly focus trained for what it does I can just sell the accumulated SP as packs to lower the subscription costs. There are two possibilities here: - If I can sell them higher that what it takes to create the pack (PLEX + extractors) I can create a free account with zero effort. - If I have to sell lower that what it takes to create them all the people training while taking a break will make a better deal if they just cancel the subscription and buy some packs if they come back (Yes, there may be some space between the two possibilities depending on how expensive the extractors are.) Plex cost 1.2 bill isk, this transneural package containing 2 mill SP is gonna sell for how much? This is uncertain, because this will have a heavy impact on the PLEX price and we don't know what the extractors cost and what the demand for packs will be.
I just pointed out some consequences for both the scenarios, where the pack is cheaper than what it takes to produce or where it is more expensive.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1321
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:24:04 -
[2457] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ. unless the margins are 100% or better (which i seriously doubt) if you're doing it purely to make isk rather than offset the cost of having the account... you're better off just straight up selling plex. The point is not to make ISK. The point is if I have an account where I don't need anymore SP because it's perfectly focus trained for what it does I can just sell the accumulated SP as packs to lower the subscription costs. There are two possibilities here: - If I can sell them higher that what it takes to create the pack (PLEX + extractors) I can create a free account with zero effort. - If I have to sell lower that what it takes to create them all the people training while taking a break will make a better deal if they just cancel the subscription and buy some packs if they come back (Yes, there may be some space between the two possibilities depending on how expensive the extractors are.) Ima is right. Medium-term, skill packet prices worth a month's worth of SP will stabilize just below those of a PLEX..
I find your logic flawed as the proposed cost to the SP Package creator is a PLEX. Add that to the cost for the SP and this will come in above the price of a PLEX along with inflating the price of PLEX. Another reason it'll be more than a PLEX is that it's instant SP and not 30 days to train SP.
Sure you could just get a PLEX and train for 30 days cheaper but those that want to inject SP immediately will have to pay more. It's how the market works. It's how the trade hubs work, the further you are from Jita the more stuff costs. Want it in Rens, pay Rens prices but if you're willing to wait\travel then go to Jita.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
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Dave Stark
7576
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Posted - 2015.10.17 11:26:41 -
[2458] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:When your were seeking an answer i gave it you now you quote a line, i meant your take on it. I always took it in eve that certain area's were sacrosanct and now it seems not.
How will this effect a new player in anyway shape or form, except for him to spend real money to advance instantly. I agree with you that having a 400m sp toon has no bearing on anyones ability to pilot a ship no different than someone with 150m sp but to what end its not been earned, The size of the wallet should not dictate the class of the pilot.
In what way is this helping to boost the flagging sub base, its just taking money away from an already jaded one.
what do i think it achieves? it makes skipping the boring and pointless training of core skills significantly easier. lets face it - everyone is going to train cpu/pg skills, basic nav skills etc. they are essentially mandatory. - it's just an irrelevant time sink to train them. you can skip it by buying a cheap character with them trained already this system just makes doing that significantly less hassle.
that's the same way it affects everyone; open your wallet (in game or out of game) and advance instantly. the size of the wallet has always dictated the class of the pilot - the bazaar has ensured that.
it helps boost the flagging sub base in the same way every single other QoL change does. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1680
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Posted - 2015.10.17 11:38:20 -
[2459] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anyway, in both cases the PLEX prices will skyrocket, since there will be a lot of players who are no longer interested in getting SP for a bunch of their alts and rather just farm packs for passive income. I will do it for sure if this hits TQ. unless the margins are 100% or better (which i seriously doubt) if you're doing it purely to make isk rather than offset the cost of having the account... you're better off just straight up selling plex. The point is not to make ISK. The point is if I have an account where I don't need anymore SP because it's perfectly focus trained for what it does I can just sell the accumulated SP as packs to lower the subscription costs. There are two possibilities here: - If I can sell them higher that what it takes to create the pack (PLEX + extractors) I can create a free account with zero effort. - If I have to sell lower that what it takes to create them all the people training while taking a break will make a better deal if they just cancel the subscription and buy some packs if they come back (Yes, there may be some space between the two possibilities depending on how expensive the extractors are.) Ima is right. Medium-term, skill packet prices worth a month's worth of SP will stabilize just below those of a PLEX. There is after all, only one source of new SP and that is paying for a month's worth of game time. This is massive buff to multi-boxers who multiplex characters that do not require continued training. Ganking alts, mining alts, PI alts, industry/research alts, etc. will all be essentially free-to-play, or certainly only cost a fraction of a PLEX to keep running for a month. This is perhaps the most worrisome aspect of this change. This will have profound effects on the economy and a massive proliferation in extra accounts. On the plus side, this change coupled with the recent buff in skill points is a huge boon to the New Order and other highsec gankers. Using the trial period and the free PLEX for a buddy account, you can almost have a near max DPS 5M SP Catalyst ganking alt for free which you can then run indefinitely, also for near free, by harvesting the SP each month. Free gank alts for everyone, and as many as your machine can run at one time, should make our job of bringing highsec into compliance that much easier.
it makes me wonder if this is the reason hyperdunking got nerfed, they nerf hyperdunking then release a way to easily make low sp alts
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1802
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:40:15 -
[2460] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:I find your logic flawed as the proposed cost to the SP Package creator is a PLEX. Add that to the cost for the SP and this will come in above the price of a PLEX along with inflating the price of PLEX. Another reason it'll be more than a PLEX is that it's instant SP and not 30 days to train SP. Sure you could just get a PLEX and train for 30 days cheaper but those that want to inject SP immediately will have to pay more. It's how the market works. It's how the trade hubs work, the further you are from Jita the more stuff costs. Want it in Rens, pay Rens prices but if you're willing to wait\travel then go to Jita.
It's not flawed at all. SP can only come from game time. Therefore, these packets will cost the equivalent in PLEX + the cost of the extractor + some small profit. If the cost of the packets is capped at the cost of PLEX as if it rises much above the cost a PLEX, people will just extract a month's worth of game time from a character and buy a PLEX to activate dual-training to replace it for a quick, guaranteed profit.
So a months worth of SP will never cost much more than PLEX + extractor cost. If they ever do for some reason, then you will actually get paid to run a ganking (or mining/PI/whatever) alt. That situation won't last for long before players sell off some SP from an alt and buy a cheaper PLEX to replace that SP for a quick profit.
Unless the extractors cost so much that people decide the packets aren't worth it, they will be in high demand as you say because they are instantaneous progression. Therefore, this upward price pressure will keep them near the price of a PLEX. The only downward pressure will come from the alt farmers who will sell SP at a small loss because there are making easy PI/industry/ganking profit to offset their costs.
Therefore, SP packets prices will track the price of PLEX almost perfectly, but they will also push the demand for PLEX way up to satisfy the new demand for "free" alt accounts. There are a lot of unknowns as to how this shakes out, but definitely there will be massive changes to the economy if this mechanic is put in the game. |
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Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1321
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:44:23 -
[2461] - Quote
There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
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Posted - 2015.10.17 11:45:16 -
[2462] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote: On the plus side, this change coupled with the recent buff in skill points is a huge boon to the New Order and other highsec gankers. Using the trial period and the free PLEX for a buddy account, you can almost have a near max DPS 5M SP Catalyst ganking alt for free which you can then run indefinitely, also for near free, by harvesting the SP each month. Free gank alts for everyone, and as many as your machine can run at one time, should make our job of bringing highsec into compliance that much easier.
You can't learn blasters on trial account.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1804
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Posted - 2015.10.17 11:47:19 -
[2463] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Black Pedro wrote: On the plus side, this change coupled with the recent buff in skill points is a huge boon to the New Order and other highsec gankers. Using the trial period and the free PLEX for a buddy account, you can almost have a near max DPS 5M SP Catalyst ganking alt for free which you can then run indefinitely, also for near free, by harvesting the SP each month. Free gank alts for everyone, and as many as your machine can run at one time, should make our job of bringing highsec into compliance that much easier.
You can't learn blasters on trial account. I am pretty sure you can. But it won't be a trial account anymore as soon as you use your free buddy PLEX to activate it. |
Asveron Durr
Vandanian Order
10
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Posted - 2015.10.17 11:58:40 -
[2464] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:General Lootit wrote:Black Pedro wrote: On the plus side, this change coupled with the recent buff in skill points is a huge boon to the New Order and other highsec gankers. Using the trial period and the free PLEX for a buddy account, you can almost have a near max DPS 5M SP Catalyst ganking alt for free which you can then run indefinitely, also for near free, by harvesting the SP each month. Free gank alts for everyone, and as many as your machine can run at one time, should make our job of bringing highsec into compliance that much easier.
You can't learn blasters on trial account. I am pretty sure you can. But it won't be a trial account anymore as soon as you use your free buddy PLEX to activate it.
Have to use this quote since your editing your last post almost by the minute General Lootit.....
Your wrong about the blasters, sure maybe not about t2 but you do not need t2 for a cheap effective gank alt |
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1321
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 12:05:54 -
[2465] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Maximus Aerelius wrote:I find your logic flawed as the proposed cost to the SP Package creator is a PLEX. Add that to the cost for the SP and this will come in above the price of a PLEX along with inflating the price of PLEX. Another reason it'll be more than a PLEX is that it's instant SP and not 30 days to train SP. Sure you could just get a PLEX and train for 30 days cheaper but those that want to inject SP immediately will have to pay more. It's how the market works. It's how the trade hubs work, the further you are from Jita the more stuff costs. Want it in Rens, pay Rens prices but if you're willing to wait\travel then go to Jita.
It's not flawed at all. SP can only come from game time. Therefore, these packets will cost the equivalent in PLEX + the cost of the extractor + some small profit. If the cost of the packets is capped at the cost of PLEX as if it rises much above the cost a PLEX, people will just extract a month's worth of game time from a character and buy a PLEX to activate dual-training to replace it for a quick, guaranteed profit. So a months worth of SP will never cost much more than PLEX + extractor cost. If they ever do for some reason, then you will actually get paid to run a ganking (or mining/PI/whatever) alt. That situation won't last for long before players sell off some SP from an alt and buy a cheaper PLEX to replace that SP for a quick profit. Unless the extractors cost so much that people decide the packets aren't worth it, they will be in high demand as you say because they are instantaneous progression. Therefore, this upward price pressure will keep them near the price of a PLEX. The only downward pressure will come from the alt farmers who will sell SP at a small loss because they are making easy PI/industry/ganking profit to offset their costs. Therefore, SP packets prices will track the price of PLEX almost perfectly, but they will also push the demand for PLEX way up to satisfy the new demand for "free" alt accounts. There are a lot of unknowns as to how this shakes out, but definitely there will be massive changes to the economy if this mechanic is put in the game.
I think you're wrong on them tracking the price of a PLEX and there isn't any profit in that for those extracting. It's proposed that the character extracting uses a PLEX+SP Extractor to create the packet. What's the point\where's the profit in it selling for under the price of a PLEX?
Further to that you say people won't pay above the price of a PLEX but will instead activate MCT. That's not addressing the injection of SP as I said, instant SP will cost more than training at standard rate.
As for people offsetting their costs elsewhere, I agree some will, but the market will dictate what may happen and you know most people will sell for as much as possible.
In all honesty I hope this never comes to pass.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2015.10.17 12:11:13 -
[2466] - Quote
Mag's wrote:You ask what is wrong with it, I ask what does it fix. ..Interest in the game. More newbies out of poorly-supported frigate fits is interesting for all. More subs is win-win.
It brings up the question, though, if SP is something just to be bypassed with money (on some level, both the extractor and SP cost something), why the system exists. What does keeping newbies out of capitals fix?
This extractor design is based in something -- whether the science of motivation, an effect that was immediately shown with increased starter SP, or something else. So, if questioning that -- why? Why not question the validity of the system as it was? In fact, it's all purely from ignorance about what's motivating?
Moac Tor wrote:But... when it comes to things like this I just don't feel like Rise and his team "get it". You make this out to be a Team Pirate Unicorns idea but have no clue if this is accurate. If you have experience with the topic of SP, you might realize that the initial suggestion is nothing the same. That idea has been in development, now to seemingly be replaced with this idea. Maybe you should weigh all of the truth. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1750
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 12:12:40 -
[2467] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Maximus Aerelius wrote:I find your logic flawed as the proposed cost to the SP Package creator is a PLEX. Add that to the cost for the SP and this will come in above the price of a PLEX along with inflating the price of PLEX. Another reason it'll be more than a PLEX is that it's instant SP and not 30 days to train SP. Sure you could just get a PLEX and train for 30 days cheaper but those that want to inject SP immediately will have to pay more. It's how the market works. It's how the trade hubs work, the further you are from Jita the more stuff costs. Want it in Rens, pay Rens prices but if you're willing to wait\travel then go to Jita.
It's not flawed at all. SP can only come from game time. Therefore, these packets will cost the equivalent in PLEX + the cost of the extractor + some small profit. If the cost of the packets is capped at the cost of PLEX as if it rises much above the cost a PLEX, people will just extract a month's worth of game time from a character and buy a PLEX to activate dual-training to replace it for a quick, guaranteed profit. So a months worth of SP will never cost much more than PLEX + extractor cost. If they ever do for some reason, then you will actually get paid to run a ganking (or mining/PI/whatever) alt. That situation won't last for long before players sell off some SP from an alt and buy a cheaper PLEX to replace that SP for a quick profit. Unless the extractors cost so much that people decide the packets aren't worth it, they will be in high demand as you say because they are instantaneous progression. Therefore, this upward price pressure will keep them near the price of a PLEX. The only downward pressure will come from the alt farmers who will sell SP at a small loss because they are making easy PI/industry/ganking profit to offset their costs. Therefore, SP packets prices will track the price of PLEX almost perfectly, but they will also push the demand for PLEX way up to satisfy the new demand for "free" alt accounts. There are a lot of unknowns as to how this shakes out, but definitely there will be massive changes to the economy if this mechanic is put in the game. I think you're wrong on them tracking the price of a PLEX and there isn't any profit in that for those extracting. It's proposed that the character extracting uses a PLEX+SP Extractor to create the packet. What's the point\where's the profit in it selling for under the price of a PLEX? Further to that you say people won't pay above the price of a PLEX but will instead activate MCT. That's not addressing the injection of SP as I said, instant SP will cost more than training at standard rate. As for people offsetting their costs elsewhere, I agree some will, but the market will dictate what may happen and you know most people will sell for as much as possible. In all honesty I hope this never comes to pass. If you are right this only means you get a free gank alt + excess ISK from this
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
92
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Posted - 2015.10.17 12:41:42 -
[2468] - Quote
Asveron Durr wrote:Here is something to consider since this skill idea will not assist younger/newer players.......
First few days or coupleof weeks are fine maybe......
But then space rich guy and his few friends ensure they drop their PLEX hoard(some of it) into aurum. Then purchase the skill extractors.... Then use them on characters they have not been using in a long time....
And only after they have begin snapping up the skill injectors off the market....
Calculations between aurum/plex differences/worth, and equivelancy of RL Money will: Allow for market manipulation and control, effetively making it impossible for new players to purchase these injectors....
Eventually the plex is much higher than it is today and the Injecotrs will be soon enough in the range of 500million to 1 billion ISK themselves also.....
This will make the idea into "Golden Ammo" as the only ones able to use it at that point would be those that spend REAL cash on plex or even aurum...because the ISK market is for all intents an purposes in the control of players....and mostly veterans at that. I could do it....and I am sure the the other EvE moguls out there are thinking of it.....
In effect i predict in a few short months of being implemented as currently stated this "skill idea" becomes a point of RMT and enslavement for new players to established organizations that will setup a way to exploit the "i have to have it now" crowd.
It will fail as valuable change in the game...... an as one person said once already....when a newer player quits he will pass on the knowledge: 1.) you have to spend $15 to subscribe 2.) then buy a plex to cash in to purchase the skill injectors $20 2a.) or buy aurum to get as many skill extractors as possible $20 3.) you will also have to fork over $20 for a plex to train a 2nd character or $15 for a character on another account
Just to be effective......and that is how the "i want it now" crowd will think and behave.... Bad reviews and word of mouth that EvE will cost approx $30 - $60 every month or every other month or so to be competitive will destroy player retention more so than now. It will no longer be seen as the $15 per month subscription game by a greater number of people than many realize. It will be seen as a PAY TO WIN game on par with many others, but more expensive.
And this is not including the fact of those that may buy plex for ISk to get the ships they will be able to fly after injections only to lose them faster because they have no practical experience how to truly play this game.
CCP promised us no "Golden Ammo" ideas, they practically promised us they would not establish a money grab scheme like so many other games do or have done, and some of those have failed os miserably they are either stagnant as well in player numbers or do not exsist anymore.
IF Hilmar and compant really wish to kill off one of Icelands top income makers....then who are we to stop them. But if they are looking to truly see EvE last a full decade at full steam ahead they would be well advised to reconsider this idea. Veteran Players will scheme and break everything you introduce into this game.....becaue that is what we do, this is no different except you will be literally handing over the keys to your finances and ability to grow this time in ways you simply do not unable fathom at this point. Might as well go public and start letting veteran players buy actual CCP stock.
Absolutely this, the perceived barrier of entry will seem even bigger than now. Where newbros thought they had to wait before they will now feel they have to pay pay pay and pay more and still wait quite a bit unless they are minted IRL. The NPE is going to be even worse... it could be dealt with so much better than this proposed mess.
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Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1321
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Posted - 2015.10.17 12:44:28 -
[2469] - Quote
I tried to copy and paste from a longer blogpost I wrote 'My ramblings on 'Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading' Dev Blog' but got 'There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode' error. So I'll just leave this here for those that want to read it and this:
Challenge the perception of "never being able to catch up" and advertise the success of small frigate gangs\rookie ship gangs or New Bros doing awesome things. There are plenty of them out there.
A quick YouTube search revealed plenty of videos of rookies taking on higher weight classes in fights and winning. There's also lots of other videos about "What to do when you start out", PVPing in a Rookie Ship, along with hilarious Haulers killing a Vengeance and Vagabond
Allowing this to pass will open the door to more and more abuse and destruction of what EVE was built on, what attracted players like myself to commit 12 years to a game both in time and in monetary terms as subscriptions.
This quick-fix for the instant gratification of new players that probably won't invest IRL money or time over the period of their subscription would be developed over the coffin of the customer lifetime value (CLTV) who have kept EVE Online going for the past 12 years is wrong on so many levels.
With this proposal is "floating" is not only the destruction of a core fundamental being destroyed but was a foundation stone of the phenomenon that was and hopefully is EVE Online, it made those decisions count, it made you care to research, to learn and to apply what you learned to what you could do. It meant that your actions, be it training, trading, scamming, spying or whatever you did in EVE it had consequences. You picked the wrong skill to train because you were new\didn't research\queued the wrong skills and you can't fly that Interceptor but you can fly Frigates, Rookie Ships, Cruisers or whatever you can still do things in EVE Online.
Big isn't always best, frigates and rookie ships can and have taken down battleships worth 100x what those frigates are worth but those guys that do and did, they remember those days, while they were waiting for that other skill to complete.
And in years to come they'll look back and that feeling will still be with them of the day that they dared to do. The day they, with their lower SP but using game mechanics and cunning took on a 12 year old player and killed his battleship. That check mark on their hull (soon to be released) may entice them to never fly that ship again and it may even remain with them until Tranquility is turned off for the last time.
You say "We want to make sure training decisions are still very important" but they won't be if you offer this service. This goes against the 'choices and consequences' implicit in EVE Online if you can rollback (at a slight cost) the choices you made. Some decisions are based around mistakes, how many pilots selected the wrong skill that took them down a path they never thought of just because they'd trained that skill. How many professions have been opened by these errors and how many are now masters of them. With this change I foresee that people will just "cash out" their mistake with the the "undo" button that CCP are providing in this proposal and inject what they needed rather than seeing what they can do with that skill that they trained to Level 4.
All that aside, the aim of this is provide new players with an accelerated experience to EVE Online. I get that, I really do but you're doing it at the expense of the long term customer and de-valuing those characters and their skillsets.
There are already in-game items to help new players called Cerebral Accelerators albeit with severe character age restrictions. Lift the bar a little more on the age that these will work at and add them a bit more to loots\DEDs\Data and\or Relic sites to make them more available. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say give them it as a starter item but link in how to use it and what it's for. There are far better ways to get new guys into ships faster than this.
While this post touted a Character Bazaar change it did nothing for it. Again, CCP have attempted to fix something that isn't broken while leaving the broken out-of-game thing alone, floundering as it does but with "the 70 or so character transfers that happen every day". Ask yourselves why?
CCP want more people to buy more PLEX and thus increase the companies profits. They're entitled to, that's the nature of business...but a company who launches a new website on the same day as this Dev Blog was published and put EVE: Valkyrie first on the list of products kind of shows contempt\lack of thought behind the design and maybe the writing is on the web with this new site.
CCP cites the following as their values (all over their new website):
We are fearless. We are pioneers. We are bold and innovative. We pursue excellence. We engage in the relentless pursuit of beauty. We are CCP. We don't believe in the word "impossible" We stand united. We are individually diverse, yet banded together in common purpose and resolve.
Why aren't they pursuing excellence by making the Character Bazaar more in-game, more user friendly, part of the UI? Why do they fear challenging that part pf the EVE experience as this was the premise for this latest Dev Blog. Why are they going for something so radical that's resulted in a 114 page threadnaught?
Bottomline is the bottomline: Greed. To what end or low are CCP prepared to go, who knows but this could be a sign of things to come.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
94
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Posted - 2015.10.17 12:47:19 -
[2470] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control.
More control means more speculation/manipulation, a commodity as desirable as skillpoints (about as desirable a commodity as you are likely to get in this game) will be manipulated to death. New bros are going to be disappointed if they see this as a way to get into the game much quicker, unless they have a lot of real life wedge. |
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
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Posted - 2015.10.17 12:50:54 -
[2471] - Quote
Asveron Durr wrote:Black Pedro wrote:General Lootit wrote:Black Pedro wrote: On the plus side, this change coupled with the recent buff in skill points is a huge boon to the New Order and other highsec gankers. Using the trial period and the free PLEX for a buddy account, you can almost have a near max DPS 5M SP Catalyst ganking alt for free which you can then run indefinitely, also for near free, by harvesting the SP each month. Free gank alts for everyone, and as many as your machine can run at one time, should make our job of bringing highsec into compliance that much easier.
You can't learn blasters on trial account. I am pretty sure you can. But it won't be a trial account anymore as soon as you use your free buddy PLEX to activate it. Have to use this quote since your editing your last post almost by the minute General Lootit..... Your wrong about the blasters, sure maybe not about t2 but you do not need t2 for a cheap effective gank alt Yeap I talked about t2 but firstly I miss the point of PLEX investment. There are no such thing as a free PLEX. Every PLEX cost something.
For t1 SP injection doesn't help much because learning time of quee is 2 hours which should allow you to deal 200 dps. With "Small Blaster Specialization" you could get 500 dps. |
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
202
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Posted - 2015.10.17 12:52:44 -
[2472] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:After 12 years, there's an SP imbalance in the game. Some chars have more than they need (me on my alts, for example, even though I'm just playing since 2 years), newbros have less than they need (to play with the big boys). If I could believe that sp trading would generally lead to a flow of sp from older accounts (including alts) to new players (not alts), I'd tentatively support it. But I don't for a second think that will actually happen. |
a25639
Aliastra Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2015.10.17 12:58:13 -
[2473] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:I think you're wrong on them tracking the price of a PLEX and there isn't any profit in that for those extracting. It's proposed that the character extracting uses a PLEX+SP Extractor to create the packet. What's the point\where's the profit in it selling for under the price of a PLEX?
Further to that you say people won't pay above the price of a PLEX but will instead activate MCT. That's not addressing the injection of SP as I said, instant SP will cost more than training at standard rate.
Certainly there will be no profit in creating skill packages. It would be free ISK and everyone would do it. It would increase skill package supply reducing skill package price until no profit can be made anymore.
In fact I guess many people would be willing to create and sell skill packages even if they only get like 60% of the costs. There are many focussed alts or very high sp characters who no longer need more skills. Those characters will train skills for the sole purpose of selling them to reduce their subscription costs.
On the other hand the buyers are probably willing to pay like up to 90% of the standard training costs for instant sp. They wonGÇÖt pay much more because it would be more expensive than just buying a character from the character bazaar. Only a very few characters with more than 50m sp will use this feature because it really doesnGÇÖt makes much sense for them. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1805
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 13:05:46 -
[2474] - Quote
General Lootit wrote: Yeap I talked about t2 but firstly I miss the point of PLEX investment. There are no such thing as a free PLEX. Every PLEX cost something.
For t1 SP injection doesn't help much because learning time of quee is 2 hours which should allow you to deal 200 dps. With "Small Blaster Specialization" you could get 500 dps.
No, you get a free PLEX if you subscribe a buddy account.
It is 100%, absolutely free. You can also apply it 1 hour after you start your trial account giving you 60 days of absolutely free training, which will get you just a hair's breadth from 5M SP. And as soon as you apply it you can start to train T2 blasters.
With the latest buff to starting SP, you are well on your way to a max DPS catayst alt for free which you can now sell the SP from to run for next to nothing. |
Dave Stark
7576
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 13:08:24 -
[2475] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control.
More control means more speculation/manipulation, a commodity as desirable as skillpoints (about as desirable a commodity as you are likely to get in this game) will be manipulated to death. New bros are going to be disappointed if they see this as a way to get into the game much quicker, unless they have a lot of real life wedge.
so, no different to how the character bazzar works now. you know, the thing we'll still also have after this change. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 13:14:07 -
[2476] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control.
More control means more speculation/manipulation, a commodity as desirable as skillpoints (about as desirable a commodity as you are likely to get in this game) will be manipulated to death. New bros are going to be disappointed if they see this as a way to get into the game much quicker, unless they have a lot of real life wedge. so, no different to how the character bazzar works now. you know, the thing we'll still also have after this change.
"Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now" |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
94
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 13:15:05 -
[2477] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control.
More control means more speculation/manipulation, a commodity as desirable as skillpoints (about as desirable a commodity as you are likely to get in this game) will be manipulated to death. New bros are going to be disappointed if they see this as a way to get into the game much quicker, unless they have a lot of real life wedge. so, no different to how the character bazzar works now. you know, the thing we'll still also have after this change.
If it's no different than the CB why are they changing it ? More control means more manipulation, your arguments are becoming more obtuse and weak as you singlehandedly try to argue against the entire eve-o forum by yourself, I admire your commitment. :)
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
95
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 13:20:23 -
[2478] - Quote
http://s23.postimg.org/khrtqt4u3/Learning_Curve_21.jpg |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
849
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 13:27:36 -
[2479] - Quote
I was hoping that it was april fools but we're in october.
I can't believe that you guys are seriously considering doing this. This is so broken I don't even know where to start.
I keep telling new players that skill points aren't everything and that learning the game is much more important. The eveiseasy youtube channels seems to prove that.
Now you want to let new players buy skill points. They already think that the skill points are what is holding them back. Now they'll just buy the SP and then quit the game when they still can't pwn. They call the game broken.
This is such a bad and game breaking idea.
|
Dave Stark
7577
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 13:27:51 -
[2480] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control.
More control means more speculation/manipulation, a commodity as desirable as skillpoints (about as desirable a commodity as you are likely to get in this game) will be manipulated to death. New bros are going to be disappointed if they see this as a way to get into the game much quicker, unless they have a lot of real life wedge. so, no different to how the character bazzar works now. you know, the thing we'll still also have after this change. If it's no different than the CB why are they changing it ? More control means more manipulation, your arguments are becoming more obtuse and weak as you singlehandedly try to argue against the entire eve-o forum by yourself, I admire your commitment. :)
i'm going to say it again; read the devblog.
it's answered in there. |
|
Dave Stark
7577
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 13:29:11 -
[2481] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control.
More control means more speculation/manipulation, a commodity as desirable as skillpoints (about as desirable a commodity as you are likely to get in this game) will be manipulated to death. New bros are going to be disappointed if they see this as a way to get into the game much quicker, unless they have a lot of real life wedge. so, no different to how the character bazzar works now. you know, the thing we'll still also have after this change. "Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now" If it does turn into a new cash cow you think they will keep something that dimishes their return
there's an ever increasing number of characters, there may or may not be an ever increasing number of SP depending on the popularity of this new mechanic.
regardless of how much of a cash cow this is - removing something with an ever expanding potential market is hardly sensible. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
849
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 13:33:07 -
[2482] - Quote
further having reputation follow character sales was a good thing. When people thought about corp theft they had to deal with the decreased value of the character. This throws that right out the window. Now people can destroy a character and then just sell off the skill points or just trade the skill points to their new character.
You might as well just allow name changes. I thought decisions were supposed to have consequences? So much broken here. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 13:34:07 -
[2483] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control.
More control means more speculation/manipulation, a commodity as desirable as skillpoints (about as desirable a commodity as you are likely to get in this game) will be manipulated to death. New bros are going to be disappointed if they see this as a way to get into the game much quicker, unless they have a lot of real life wedge. so, no different to how the character bazzar works now. you know, the thing we'll still also have after this change. "Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now" If it does turn into a new cash cow you think they will keep something that dimishes their return there's an ever increasing number of characters, there may or may not be an ever increasing number of SP depending on the popularity of this new mechanic. regardless of how much of a cash cow this is - removing something with an ever expanding potential market is hardly sensible.
Hang on here, so in the realms of creating perfect toons now, either new or jacking unwanted skills from an existing toon to perfect it why would there be a need for a bazaar ??? |
lolcorpholder alt
Aliastra Gallente Federation
83
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 13:34:22 -
[2484] - Quote
just setting up
. |
lolcorpholder alt
Aliastra Gallente Federation
83
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 13:35:08 -
[2485] - Quote
ok, im bad at this |
Dave Stark
7577
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 13:38:48 -
[2486] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Hang on here, so in the realms of creating perfect toons now, either new or jacking unwanted skills from an existing toon to perfect it why would there be a need for a bazaar ???
because the character bazaar is still the only way to sell a whole character.
not to mention, a character trained using the skill queue to 80m SP would be SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than one trained to 80m SP by injecting packets. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 13:42:16 -
[2487] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Hang on here, so in the realms of creating perfect toons now, either new or jacking unwanted skills from an existing toon to perfect it why would there be a need for a bazaar ??? because the character bazaar is still the only way to sell a whole character. not to mention, a character trained using the skill queue to 80m SP would be SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than one trained to 80m SP by injecting packets.
So now ill do a Dave Stark and refer you back to the blog
"Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now"
If this new character bastardization come to pass and is far more lucrative than there 2 plex/20 dollar transfer fee, you really think they will keep it. |
Dave stark
7577
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 13:48:12 -
[2488] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Hang on here, so in the realms of creating perfect toons now, either new or jacking unwanted skills from an existing toon to perfect it why would there be a need for a bazaar ??? because the character bazaar is still the only way to sell a whole character. not to mention, a character trained using the skill queue to 80m SP would be SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than one trained to 80m SP by injecting packets. So now ill do a Dave Stark and refer you back to the blog "Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now" If this new character bastardization come to pass and is far more lucrative than there 2 plex/20 dollar transfer fee, you really think they will keep it.
hard to say.
how often do you hear "i'm biomassing this character"? i don't hear it alot other than "go biomass" as an insult/euphemism. that means that there are always more characters - which is more potential sales. we've seen how many characters are traded daily from the devblog.
the two systems achieve the same thing, but are totally separate. if both are making money - why would you scrap one? even more than that - they compliment each other.
a guy drops a bunch of plex on skill packets (whether that's using the isk to buy them from the market or siphoning them from another character they own) and then spend even more plex selling it to another dude... if you remove the bazaar the guy might not bother fixing his skill issues and subsequently selling that character.
who knows - they might even scrap the character bazaar because they might let you quite literally sell a brain in a box and move character trading totally in-game. honestly, who knows? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 14:00:30 -
[2489] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Hang on here, so in the realms of creating perfect toons now, either new or jacking unwanted skills from an existing toon to perfect it why would there be a need for a bazaar ??? because the character bazaar is still the only way to sell a whole character. not to mention, a character trained using the skill queue to 80m SP would be SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than one trained to 80m SP by injecting packets. So now ill do a Dave Stark and refer you back to the blog "Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now" If this new character bastardization come to pass and is far more lucrative than there 2 plex/20 dollar transfer fee, you really think they will keep it. hard to say. how often do you hear "i'm biomassing this character"? i don't hear it alot other than "go biomass" as an insult/euphemism. that means that there are always more characters - which is more potential sales. we've seen how many characters are traded daily from the devblog. the two systems achieve the same thing, but are totally separate. if both are making money - why would you scrap one? even more than that - they compliment each other. a guy drops a bunch of plex on skill packets (whether that's using the isk to buy them from the market or siphoning them from another character they own) and then spend even more plex selling it to another dude... if you remove the bazaar the guy might not bother fixing his skill issues and subsequently selling that character. who knows - they might even scrap the character bazaar because they might let you quite literally sell a brain in a box and move character trading totally in-game. honestly, who knows?
Comes back round to who benefits most from it, certainly isnt that new guy and everything you mention above is about spending more and more on plex which will send it even higher. Comes a point in a game that you sub for every month and theres more and more need to spend real cash in it when you have to say where do you draw a line at .
Your last comment was refreshing as you were not as vitriolic about it being the way forward, i think this needs way more thought put into it before being implimented |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 14:02:45 -
[2490] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:General Lootit wrote: Yeap I talked about t2 but firstly I miss the point of PLEX investment. There are no such thing as a free PLEX. Every PLEX cost something.
For t1 SP injection doesn't help much because learning time of quee is 2 hours which should allow you to deal 200 dps. With "Small Blaster Specialization" you could get 500 dps.
No, you get a free PLEX if you subscribe a buddy account. It is 100%, absolutely free. You can also apply it 1 hour after you start your trial account giving you 60 days of absolutely free training, which will get you just a hair's breadth from 5M SP. And as soon as you apply it you can start to train T2 blasters. With the latest buff to starting SP, you are well on your way to a max DPS catayst alt for free which you can now sell the SP from to run for next to nothing. II got it
1) Invite buddy 2) Give PLEX to him 3) He activate it 4) Get PLEX from CCP for it 5) Buy injector and apply it on buddys account.
For comparison to sec.tag way if packet will cost about 300kk then for extra 50kk you will get toon with clean history, 0 secstatus , with no kill rights on it and 1kk SP.
Am I right? |
|
Quintessen
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
506
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 14:05:27 -
[2491] - Quote
I imagine nothing at this point is going to be seen by actual devs given that we're 100+ pages in.
I'm concerned that the diminishing returns for higher SP characters aren't quite diminished enough. The effective cost between "new" characters and "old" characters is only going to be 10x per skill point, but the relative wealth of older characters is way more than 10x.
If I'm a new player who farms a bit and gets 1B ISK (a hefty sum) and I buy N of these packets for 500k*N SP with that money. Someone two has 100B or 1T ISK is going to be able to get way more SP (50k*N*100 or 1000) meaning. If you've got 1T ISK you're probably not going to miss 10B of it and given that SP is so valuable, it will probably be considered a worthy investment of funds.
I would suggest capping skill injection at 100M. That's still a pretty old character and a huge boost. You can be proficient at a whole lot of things at 100M skill points and if you want to accelerate you can get rid of some of your skills to bring you back under 100M before injecting.
An added benefit of cutting out 100M+ characters is that it may help bring demand down and help keep prices lower so that new pilots can actually afford these services and to help keep PLEX prices down because AURUM demand stays lower. Though regardless older players are going to have more SP to sell meaning an influx of ISK to their wallets.
A lot of the player retention ideas seem to be around extracting real money from newer players in exchange for older players having lots of ISK. This feels a bit like this will just make that worse. It may help with player retention -- I don't know. But please cap injections so that we don't have trillionaires just dumping tons of money and capping their skill levels.
|
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 14:15:32 -
[2492] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Comes back round to who benefits most from it, certainly isnt that new guy and everything you mention above is about spending more and more on plex which will send it even higher. Comes a point in a game that you sub for every month and theres more and more need to spend real cash in it when you have to say where do you draw a line at .
Your last comment was refreshing as you were not as vitriolic about it being the way forward, i think this needs way more thought put into it before being implimented
I'm fine with sending plex higher and higher - high plex prices make it harder and harder for illicit RMT to happen. it simply prices them out of the market.
i'd say there's more and more options on how to use plex, i wouldn't say there's more and more need, though. however, yes you do have to look a it and go "what am i willing to spend money on, and how much?" for me, 2 subscriptions is as much as i'm willing to spend personally (unless ccp start selling awesome stuff like mugs, keychains all that type of stuff (hint ******* hint, guys)). if i want anything else i either buy the plex with isk or go without.
I don't try to be the bad guy - i'm just really really uneloquent (is that a word? i'm the very opposite of eloquent).
i think something that would benefit this proposed system is slashing everything by 1/10. - 500,000 SP at "cost price" based on plex prices is 300m, plus the unknown cost of the extractor. this prices new players out of the market. drop it to 50,000 extracted and whatever price they're thinking for the extractor cut it by 90%. this will give you a cost price of 30m, rather than 300m. 30m is FAR more obtainable for a new player.
yeah the isk/sp is the same however there's a psychological barrier to overcome here. smaller cheaper fixes encourage poorer/new players to think "i can participate in this if i want to" unlike seeing a cliff face of 300m and going "how am i ever going to afford that?" - 300m is a lot to new players, we often forget that when we have billions and trillions in our wallets. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
850
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 14:26:21 -
[2493] - Quote
The other thing to keep in mind is that many corps use skill point minimums to aid in greatly reducing the number of potential spys that apply to your corp. These changes completely undo that when you can recycle the same 5 million skill points on alt after alt.
I would like to point out here that plenty of games have gone by the wayside by giving players what they ask for instead of making a good game. Focus on making a good game not catering to the whinners. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
850
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 14:31:01 -
[2494] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:General Lootit wrote: Yeap I talked about t2 but firstly I miss the point of PLEX investment. There are no such thing as a free PLEX. Every PLEX cost something.
For t1 SP injection doesn't help much because learning time of quee is 2 hours which should allow you to deal 200 dps. With "Small Blaster Specialization" you could get 500 dps.
No, you get a free PLEX if you subscribe a buddy account. It is 100%, absolutely free. You can also apply it 1 hour after you start your trial account giving you 60 days of absolutely free training, which will get you just a hair's breadth from 5M SP. And as soon as you apply it you can start to train T2 blasters. With the latest buff to starting SP, you are well on your way to a max DPS catayst alt for free which you can now sell the SP from to run for next to nothing. In order to get your so called "free PLEX" somone must first put 30 days on the account either with another PLEX or real life money. So your "free PLEX" isn't really free. Also when they added the new higher starting skill points they also got rid of the extreemely fast training for new players. So I think that it winds up being a bit of a wash.
My only problem with that is that they insulate new players a bit from their own ignorance which I think is a shame. This game used to be all about learning from your mistakes. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 14:32:46 -
[2495] - Quote
Makes you wonder how this feature would fair against offering a yearly or paid for service of complete skill remapping |
Eschin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 14:35:22 -
[2496] - Quote
This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:
I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap. |
Brother Bathana
Quantum Array
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 14:41:02 -
[2497] - Quote
Eschin wrote:This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:
I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap.
Hire this guy for Team size matters, he has his stuff straight what the eve community wants :) |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 14:41:50 -
[2498] - Quote
I wouldnt get your hopes up, its a company there has to be something in it for them to impliment a change that benefits both sides.
That would negate the need for a character bazaar and the freehold sale of skillpoints, depends if theyre in it for pure profit purposes only or they do actually listen to the client base. |
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 14:46:02 -
[2499] - Quote
Brother Bathana wrote:Eschin wrote:This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:
I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap. Hire this guy for Team size matters, he has his stuff straight what the eve community wants :)
"wtb 50m sp pilot, allocated as follows: {list}, will pay 20bn isk" *prices pulled out of my ass for example purposes only.
then some one sees that, repurposes their alt by shuffling SP around then sells it.
is it really that different to just buying the SP from the seller and injecting your own skills? does it matter whether it's the buyer or seller injecting the SP? |
Hulk Miner
White Horse Incorporated
36
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 14:49:51 -
[2500] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Makes you wonder how this feature would fair against offering a yearly or paid for service of complete skill remapping
Skill reset coupon in the Aurum Store With the coupon all your skills will be reset and points moved to your unallocated pool with the unplugged skills placed in your hanger.
Not if but when selling SP goes live its the natural next step and although I would not use it on my main character I have no issues with this but I do with selling SP, crazy I know.
|
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 14:49:54 -
[2501] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Brother Bathana wrote:Eschin wrote:This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:
I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap. Hire this guy for Team size matters, he has his stuff straight what the eve community wants :) "wtb 50m sp pilot, allocated as follows: {list}, will pay 20bn isk" *prices pulled out of my ass for example purposes only. then some one sees that, repurposes their alt by shuffling SP around then sells it. is it really that different to just buying the SP from the seller and injecting your own skills? does it matter whether it's the buyer or seller injecting the SP?
You lost it there bud
Its not for selling, its rehashing your own toon to suit your needs. |
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 14:51:48 -
[2502] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Brother Bathana wrote:Eschin wrote:This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:
I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap. Hire this guy for Team size matters, he has his stuff straight what the eve community wants :) "wtb 50m sp pilot, allocated as follows: {list}, will pay 20bn isk" *prices pulled out of my ass for example purposes only. then some one sees that, repurposes their alt by shuffling SP around then sells it. is it really that different to just buying the SP from the seller and injecting your own skills? does it matter whether it's the buyer or seller injecting the SP? You lost it there bud Its not for selling, its rehashing your own toon to suit your needs.
what's to stop you selling it after you have repurposed it? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 14:54:47 -
[2503] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Brother Bathana wrote:Eschin wrote:This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:
I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap. Hire this guy for Team size matters, he has his stuff straight what the eve community wants :) "wtb 50m sp pilot, allocated as follows: {list}, will pay 20bn isk" *prices pulled out of my ass for example purposes only. then some one sees that, repurposes their alt by shuffling SP around then sells it. is it really that different to just buying the SP from the seller and injecting your own skills? does it matter whether it's the buyer or seller injecting the SP? You lost it there bud Its not for selling, its rehashing your own toon to suit your needs. what's to stop you selling it after you have repurposed it?
Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ? |
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 14:58:49 -
[2504] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ?
but you don't, you don't even need/want that character anyway. it exists to be sold. you have a toon somebody else wants - you just rejigged the SP to what they were looking for. they listed what they want, you recreated your character to do what they want then you're going to sell it to them.
that's entirely within the realm of "you can only move sp within your own head".
instead of creating a new account and just dumping packets on it (as per the new system) you've got a character with the exact same skillset. so as i said - does it matter really matter who injects the SP? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:01:05 -
[2505] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ? but you don't, you don't even need/want that character anyway. it exists to be sold. you have a toon somebody else wants - you just rejigged the SP to what they were looking for. they listed what they want, you recreated your character to do what they want then you're going to sell it to them. that's entirely within the realm of "you can only move sp within your own head". instead of creating a new account and just dumping packets on it (as per the new system) you've got a character with the exact same skillset. so as i said - does it matter really matter who injects the SP?
Yes because having the ability to do a complete skill remap on your character is not the same as buying XXX packets of skill points from another source
The "New system" is ever increasing amounts being spent on it, a remap is just recycling your skillpoints into another doctrine going from an indie / miner to pure combat as such |
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:04:15 -
[2506] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ? but you don't, you don't even need/want that character anyway. it exists to be sold. you have a toon somebody else wants - you just rejigged the SP to what they were looking for. they listed what they want, you recreated your character to do what they want then you're going to sell it to them. that's entirely within the realm of "you can only move sp within your own head". instead of creating a new account and just dumping packets on it (as per the new system) you've got a character with the exact same skillset. so as i said - does it matter really matter who injects the SP? Yes because having the ability to do a complete skill remap on your character is not the same as buying XXX packets of skill points from another source
the outcome is the very same.
you have a character with a skillset you have specified.
so like i said, if the outcome is identical; does it matter if the seller has to do all the injecting, or if the buyer has to do all the injecting? |
Majuan Shuo
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
66
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:06:52 -
[2507] - Quote
The blog asked for comments, here is mine:
It is a terrible idea and if implemented I will leave the game.
"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
|
Karin Yang
Eye Of Insight SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:08:50 -
[2508] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ? but you don't, you don't even need/want that character anyway. it exists to be sold. you have a toon somebody else wants - you just rejigged the SP to what they were looking for. they listed what they want, you recreated your character to do what they want then you're going to sell it to them. that's entirely within the realm of "you can only move sp within your own head". instead of creating a new account and just dumping packets on it (as per the new system) you've got a character with the exact same skillset. so as i said - does it matter really matter who injects the SP? Yes because having the ability to do a complete skill remap on your character is not the same as buying XXX packets of skill points from another source The "New system" is ever increasing amounts being spent on it, a remap is just recycling your skillpoints into another doctrine going from an indie / miner to pure combat as such Buying a character from bazaar is already a way to get skill point from another source. You blocked the window, leaving the door open, and you're saying that's different? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:09:53 -
[2509] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ? but you don't, you don't even need/want that character anyway. it exists to be sold. you have a toon somebody else wants - you just rejigged the SP to what they were looking for. they listed what they want, you recreated your character to do what they want then you're going to sell it to them. that's entirely within the realm of "you can only move sp within your own head". instead of creating a new account and just dumping packets on it (as per the new system) you've got a character with the exact same skillset. so as i said - does it matter really matter who injects the SP? Yes because having the ability to do a complete skill remap on your character is not the same as buying XXX packets of skill points from another source the outcome is the very same. you have a character with a skillset you have specified. so like i said, if the outcome is identical; does it matter if the seller has to do all the injecting, or if the buyer has to do all the injecting?
PRICE
Yours in exopnentially expensive, im talking of a 1 of fee to remap your own skill set |
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:12:35 -
[2510] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ? but you don't, you don't even need/want that character anyway. it exists to be sold. you have a toon somebody else wants - you just rejigged the SP to what they were looking for. they listed what they want, you recreated your character to do what they want then you're going to sell it to them. that's entirely within the realm of "you can only move sp within your own head". instead of creating a new account and just dumping packets on it (as per the new system) you've got a character with the exact same skillset. so as i said - does it matter really matter who injects the SP? Yes because having the ability to do a complete skill remap on your character is not the same as buying XXX packets of skill points from another source the outcome is the very same. you have a character with a skillset you have specified. so like i said, if the outcome is identical; does it matter if the seller has to do all the injecting, or if the buyer has to do all the injecting? PRICE Yours in exopnentially expensive, im talking of a 1 of fee to remap your own skill set
psst, we're talking about Eschin's idea of only being able to extract and allocate SP to the same character. |
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:13:27 -
[2511] - Quote
Karin Yang wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ? but you don't, you don't even need/want that character anyway. it exists to be sold. you have a toon somebody else wants - you just rejigged the SP to what they were looking for. they listed what they want, you recreated your character to do what they want then you're going to sell it to them. that's entirely within the realm of "you can only move sp within your own head". instead of creating a new account and just dumping packets on it (as per the new system) you've got a character with the exact same skillset. so as i said - does it matter really matter who injects the SP? Yes because having the ability to do a complete skill remap on your character is not the same as buying XXX packets of skill points from another source The "New system" is ever increasing amounts being spent on it, a remap is just recycling your skillpoints into another doctrine going from an indie / miner to pure combat as such Buying a character from bazaar is already a way to get skill point from another source. You blocked the window, leaving the door open, and you're saying that's different?
The bazaar your buying a legacy toon as is, its history and skill set in place. Your not buying a portrait with 20 / 30 / 40 mill skillpoints to set as you wish. |
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
213
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:14:24 -
[2512] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ? but you don't, you don't even need/want that character anyway. it exists to be sold. you have a toon somebody else wants - you just rejigged the SP to what they were looking for. they listed what they want, you recreated your character to do what they want then you're going to sell it to them. that's entirely within the realm of "you can only move sp within your own head". instead of creating a new account and just dumping packets on it (as per the new system) you've got a character with the exact same skillset. so as i said - does it matter really matter who injects the SP? Yes because having the ability to do a complete skill remap on your character is not the same as buying XXX packets of skill points from another source
He's right it's a ridiculous idea, it does nothing for new players who have no skill points to begin with, but it does show the mindset of players who are against the change: apparently we don't mind bending the unbendable rules of eve if it helps established players.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
|
Karin Yang
Eye Of Insight SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:18:21 -
[2513] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Karin Yang wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ? but you don't, you don't even need/want that character anyway. it exists to be sold. you have a toon somebody else wants - you just rejigged the SP to what they were looking for. they listed what they want, you recreated your character to do what they want then you're going to sell it to them. that's entirely within the realm of "you can only move sp within your own head". instead of creating a new account and just dumping packets on it (as per the new system) you've got a character with the exact same skillset. so as i said - does it matter really matter who injects the SP? Yes because having the ability to do a complete skill remap on your character is not the same as buying XXX packets of skill points from another source The "New system" is ever increasing amounts being spent on it, a remap is just recycling your skillpoints into another doctrine going from an indie / miner to pure combat as such Buying a character from bazaar is already a way to get skill point from another source. You blocked the window, leaving the door open, and you're saying that's different? The bazaar your buying a legacy toon as is, its history and skill set in place. Your not buying a portrait with 20 / 30 / 40 mill skillpoints to set as you wish. Not so many people are caring about portrait. As some character farmer said in this thread that only 10% really care that, while it is only a set of skill points for the other 90% |
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1271
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:18:25 -
[2514] - Quote
I have yet again, removed some off-topic/trolling/disrespectful posts.
Quote:2. Be respectful toward others at all times.
The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.
3. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:19:16 -
[2515] - Quote
psst, we're talking about Eschin's idea of only being able to extract and allocate SP to the same character.[/quote]
Look above Eschin's post, that is what he was answering too.
Quote:Makes you wonder how this feature would fair against offering a yearly or paid for service of complete skill remapping Twisted |
Eschin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:20:37 -
[2516] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Brother Bathana wrote:Eschin wrote:This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:
I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap. Hire this guy for Team size matters, he has his stuff straight what the eve community wants :) "wtb 50m sp pilot, allocated as follows: {list}, will pay 20bn isk" *prices pulled out of my ass for example purposes only. then some one sees that, repurposes their alt by shuffling SP around then sells it. is it really that different to just buying the SP from the seller and injecting your own skills? does it matter whether it's the buyer or seller injecting the SP?
I think so... like you said it's still conceivable but idk about how much that would be done in practice... requires another party, it's harder and would no doubt be very expensive you'd still be much better off probably buying a char close to what you want to "molding" it some.... and it is something that should be hard to do.
Of course there probably should be restrictions on the amount of SP you can reallocate at one time (read up there about being able to reallocate all of your SP at one OMG that would definitely be the end of Eve), and/or restrictions on how soon you can sell after you have reallocated points, but I do agree with the sentiment we don't need to be able to create perfect characters for someone else's instant gratification because they paid enough for it pay2win or have character factories minting these characters. That would destroy Eve. |
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:26:16 -
[2517] - Quote
Eschin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Brother Bathana wrote:Eschin wrote:This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:
I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap. Hire this guy for Team size matters, he has his stuff straight what the eve community wants :) "wtb 50m sp pilot, allocated as follows: {list}, will pay 20bn isk" *prices pulled out of my ass for example purposes only. then some one sees that, repurposes their alt by shuffling SP around then sells it. is it really that different to just buying the SP from the seller and injecting your own skills? does it matter whether it's the buyer or seller injecting the SP? I think so... like you said it's still conceivable but idk about how much that would be done in practice... requires another party, it's harder and would no doubt be very expensive you'd still be much better off probably buying a char close to what you want to "molding" it some.... and it is something that should be hard to do. Of course there probably should be restrictions on the amount of SP you can reallocate at one time (read up there about being able to reallocate all of your SP at one OMG that would definitely be the end of Eve), and/or restrictions on how soon you can sell after you have reallocated points, but I do agree with the sentiment we don't need to be able to create perfect characters for someone else's instant gratification because they paid enough for it pay2win or have character factories minting these characters. That would destroy Eve.
so if the end result is "a character with the exact set of skills that you want" whether some one rejigs it and sells it to you, or you buy it and rejig it... does it really matter if some one makes a 1 day old character and dumps a bunch of skill packets on to it?
in all 3 scenarios you just end up with a character with exactly the skills you want. restricting it to "you can only reallocate your own SP" doesn't really change the situation. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:28:50 -
[2518] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Eschin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Brother Bathana wrote:Eschin wrote:This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:
I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap. Hire this guy for Team size matters, he has his stuff straight what the eve community wants :) "wtb 50m sp pilot, allocated as follows: {list}, will pay 20bn isk" *prices pulled out of my ass for example purposes only. then some one sees that, repurposes their alt by shuffling SP around then sells it. is it really that different to just buying the SP from the seller and injecting your own skills? does it matter whether it's the buyer or seller injecting the SP? I think so... like you said it's still conceivable but idk about how much that would be done in practice... requires another party, it's harder and would no doubt be very expensive you'd still be much better off probably buying a char close to what you want to "molding" it some.... and it is something that should be hard to do. Of course there probably should be restrictions on the amount of SP you can reallocate at one time (read up there about being able to reallocate all of your SP at one OMG that would definitely be the end of Eve), and/or restrictions on how soon you can sell after you have reallocated points, but I do agree with the sentiment we don't need to be able to create perfect characters for someone else's instant gratification because they paid enough for it pay2win or have character factories minting these characters. That would destroy Eve. so if the end result is "a character with the exact set of skills that you want" whether some one rejigs it and sells it to you, or you buy it and rejig it... does it really matter if some one makes a 1 day old character and dumps a bunch of skill packets on to it? in all 3 scenarios you just end up with a character with exactly the skills you want. restricting it to "you can only reallocate your own SP" doesn't really change the situation.
You dont think there is a difference in buying skill points and rehashing your own character ?? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:32:20 -
[2519] - Quote
If you think theres no difference then why not just go all out and say why all this bollox, why dont CCP just sell skill points for cash |
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:33:17 -
[2520] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:You dont think there is a difference in buying skill points and rehashing your own character ??
obviously there's a difference. in the same way there's a difference between walking to work and cycling to work. one is more hassle, one is less hassle, but either way you end up at work.
if the you always end up with the same result - why add an arbitrary restriction that doesn't do anything? |
|
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:34:03 -
[2521] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:If you think theres no difference then why not just go all out and say why all this bollox, why dont CCP just sell skill points for cash
because now you're just producing SP out of thin air - which is completely different to any of the scenarios we're discussing. |
Eschin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:35:34 -
[2522] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Eschin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Brother Bathana wrote:Eschin wrote:This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:
I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap. Hire this guy for Team size matters, he has his stuff straight what the eve community wants :) "wtb 50m sp pilot, allocated as follows: {list}, will pay 20bn isk" *prices pulled out of my ass for example purposes only. then some one sees that, repurposes their alt by shuffling SP around then sells it. is it really that different to just buying the SP from the seller and injecting your own skills? does it matter whether it's the buyer or seller injecting the SP? I think so... like you said it's still conceivable but idk about how much that would be done in practice... requires another party, it's harder and would no doubt be very expensive you'd still be much better off probably buying a char close to what you want to "molding" it some.... and it is something that should be hard to do. Of course there probably should be restrictions on the amount of SP you can reallocate at one time (read up there about being able to reallocate all of your SP at one OMG that would definitely be the end of Eve), and/or restrictions on how soon you can sell after you have reallocated points, but I do agree with the sentiment we don't need to be able to create perfect characters for someone else's instant gratification because they paid enough for it pay2win or have character factories minting these characters. That would destroy Eve. so if the end result is "a character with the exact set of skills that you want" whether some one rejigs it and sells it to you, or you buy it and rejig it... does it really matter if some one makes a 1 day old character and dumps a bunch of skill packets on to it? in all 3 scenarios you just end up with a character with exactly the skills you want. restricting it to "you can only reallocate your own SP" doesn't really change the situation.
Cant you already have that now? Maybe not perfectly exactly down to the SP but if you can buy a char for every need... that exists... and while I'm not a huge fan of the bazaar because you need a right of passage on skills you need time to understand them and utilize them fully because the game isnt just about SP and ISK the human plays a huge role here... and we see all the time people that have too much isk and SP than what they know to do with... and Eve finds a way to make it right to some extent :) Folks that get ISK or SP before they really have earned it, tend to not use it correctly at all anyway, which creates content for the other Eve players that know what they are doing :) |
Josef Djugashvilis
3023
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:36:58 -
[2523] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:If you think theres no difference then why not just go all out and say why all this bollox, why dont CCP just sell skill points for cash
No matter how it is presented and sugar coated, this is precisely what they intend to do really...
This is not a signature.
|
Revan Daedrus
Space Gladiators Templis CALSF
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:39:09 -
[2524] - Quote
PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS, one of the most rewarding parts of eve is that you cannot grind or purchase your way to the top, when you get a new skill it hold meaning because it took you real time to achieve it. This thread should be titled pay to win because that is what this change will do. This will alienate every long term eve player and it will destroy one of EVEs most unique properties. I would go so far as to say that this will ruin the game at its very core. I beg of you, do not do this. |
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:39:26 -
[2525] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:If you think theres no difference then why not just go all out and say why all this bollox, why dont CCP just sell skill points for cash No matter how it is presented and sugar coated, this is precisely what they intend to do really...
at least at the moment they're limiting the supply to how fast the community can collectively train said SP. just spawning it out of thin air takes that limit and throws it out of the window, down the street, and in to the gutter.
Eschin wrote:Cant you already have that now?
yes, which is why the restriction of "you can only reallocate your own SP" is an irrelevant restriction. |
zhan zula
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:41:44 -
[2526] - Quote
Then what's the point of the choices i make?
-why does it matter what skills i train? -why is my character my own, what makes it unique?
One of the things that makes eve attractive to me is that your choices actually do matter, they are tied to your char forever, and it takes time to compensate for any mistakes.
-do i specialize in one type of weapon for example, or do i take a more general approach? -this is respceccing for money. plain and simple. and that's a bad thing.
it should matter what char you are using, the history of that character should matter, the choices you have made should matter.
what makes "zhan zula" "zhan zula"? it should be the sum of the choices i've made and the time put in, not simply the amount of money paid.
consider this: -do you think we should be able to rename characters and erase their history? -if you don't, you should care about the integrity of that character, and not allow it to be modified other than by ingame progression.
"zhan zula" should not change her character or history, only progress in competence. |
Eschin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:45:05 -
[2527] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:If you think theres no difference then why not just go all out and say why all this bollox, why dont CCP just sell skill points for cash No matter how it is presented and sugar coated, this is precisely what they intend to do really... at least at the moment they're limiting the supply to how fast the community can collectively train said SP. just spawning it out of thin air takes that limit and throws it out of the window, down the street, and in to the gutter. Eschin wrote:Cant you already have that now? yes, which is why the restriction of "you can only reallocate your own SP" is an irrelevant restriction.
So you really want to eliminate the SP variable from the equation? What are you saying really this is completely ok or the game is already pay to win? |
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:48:12 -
[2528] - Quote
Eschin wrote:What are you saying really this is completely ok or the game is already pay to win?
having sp is hardly "winning".
the fact that you can already sell one set of SP and buy another set of SP via the character bazzar... yes, i'm saying this new idea is completely ok. it's not like this idea is new to eve. |
Bloody2k
SKULL AND B0NES
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 16:02:24 -
[2529] - Quote
CCP must bring (even against their own will), because investors exert massive pressure such changes.
One is reminded of "microtransaction-gate" in 2011
Investors EVE is ultimately matter. If they will find another cash cow invested precisely there. Whether EVE is then destroyed. |
Eschin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 16:02:25 -
[2530] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Eschin wrote:What are you saying really this is completely ok or the game is already pay to win? having sp is hardly "winning". the fact that you can already sell one set of SP and buy another set of SP via the character bazzar... yes, i'm saying this new idea is completely ok. it's not like this idea is new to eve.
There is more to it than that.... a character's name and reputation now becomes moot because they are just shells housing SP... a character should be an analogue to somebody a real person not just a mix of skills that can be bought and sold. It cheapens Eve. |
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9260
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 16:09:22 -
[2531] - Quote
Eschin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Eschin wrote:What are you saying really this is completely ok or the game is already pay to win? having sp is hardly "winning". the fact that you can already sell one set of SP and buy another set of SP via the character bazzar... yes, i'm saying this new idea is completely ok. it's not like this idea is new to eve. There is more to it than that.... a character's name and reputation now becomes moot because they are just shells housing SP... a character should be an analogue to somebody a real person not just a mix of skills that can be bought and sold. It cheapens Eve. Why do people keep blathering about reputation?
In all of EVE history, maybe a hundred pilots have any reputation of note and I'm pretty sure they won't be breaking down their characters any time soon.
Can we just put that tired excuse to bed now? It's getting really redundant.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 16:10:35 -
[2532] - Quote
Eschin wrote:There is more to it than that.... a character's name and reputation now becomes moot because they are just shells housing SP... a character should be an analogue to somebody a real person not just a mix of skills that can be bought and sold. It cheapens Eve.
just like a ship is a shell housing a pod. if my ship's slow i'll buy a faster one. if my pilot can't fly that faster one i'll buy one that can.
it's a nice romantic idea that that "history should matter" but - it doesn't. the history of a person matters, the history of a specific character doesn't. as soon as you show some one the character sale thread that character's history is pretty much void.
this idea doesn't cheapen eve - eve is already that cheap. |
Eschin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 16:16:52 -
[2533] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Eschin wrote:There is more to it than that.... a character's name and reputation now becomes moot because they are just shells housing SP... a character should be an analogue to somebody a real person not just a mix of skills that can be bought and sold. It cheapens Eve. just like a ship is a shell housing a pod. if my ship's slow i'll buy a faster one. if my pilot can't fly that faster one i'll buy one that can. it's a nice romantic idea that that "history should matter" but - it doesn't. the history of a person matters, the history of a specific character doesn't. as soon as you show some one the character sale thread that character's history is pretty much void. this idea doesn't cheapen eve - eve is already that cheap.
How do you follow the history of the person if you can't follow his shell, because he just guts it after each major scam. I guess the honest players would be against this. All of the scammers rejoice! |
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 16:20:14 -
[2534] - Quote
Eschin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Eschin wrote:There is more to it than that.... a character's name and reputation now becomes moot because they are just shells housing SP... a character should be an analogue to somebody a real person not just a mix of skills that can be bought and sold. It cheapens Eve. just like a ship is a shell housing a pod. if my ship's slow i'll buy a faster one. if my pilot can't fly that faster one i'll buy one that can. it's a nice romantic idea that that "history should matter" but - it doesn't. the history of a person matters, the history of a specific character doesn't. as soon as you show some one the character sale thread that character's history is pretty much void. this idea doesn't cheapen eve - eve is already that cheap. How do you follow the history of the person if you can't follow his shell, because he just guts it after each major scam. I guess the honest players would be against this. All of the scammers rejoice!
the same way you follow the history of a person who just started.
it's no different to starting a new alt - you don't know if that person is new to eve or a 10 year vet who spun up a new character. it's not like these "problems" and "exceptions" are new. |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1397
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 16:26:57 -
[2535] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Cearain wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Enjoy it while you can cause this game isn't gonna be around that much longer for you to enjoy the cheap gains from this disastrous mistake made by CCP. It's like we haven't heard this exact statement a million times before. It`s like the player base did not shrink really. It's illogical to blame the losses eve already suffered on a decision they haven't even made yet. IMO this seems much easier to swallow than things like off grid booster alts. That is pay to win that decreases the enjoyment of the game because you need to drag an alt around while you are supposed to be having fun playing the game. You have to train that alt also, so it's not the same. Yes OGB is broken and has been around for years buts it's not game destroying.
OGB is far worse than what ccp is suggesting here.
No you do not have to train the alt you can already buy it.
It is pay to win because you have to pay for an additional account to support your main.
And it is worse because it actually makes the game less fun because you need to drag that alt around with you like a dead weight.
It is the absolute worst type of pay to win. Buying skill points is nothing compared to this. Most of the time training is to get to level 5 and that only gives about a 5% bonus the pay to win alt is like plus 35% in everything you need.
If you want to know why the numbers are decreasing look at the cancers that are actually living in the game instead of overreacting to this.
Again the loss of numbers we have seen can not be because of this proposal which hasn't even happened yet.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 16:27:37 -
[2536] - Quote
Eschin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Eschin wrote:There is more to it than that.... a character's name and reputation now becomes moot because they are just shells housing SP... a character should be an analogue to somebody a real person not just a mix of skills that can be bought and sold. It cheapens Eve. just like a ship is a shell housing a pod. if my ship's slow i'll buy a faster one. if my pilot can't fly that faster one i'll buy one that can. it's a nice romantic idea that that "history should matter" but - it doesn't. the history of a person matters, the history of a specific character doesn't. as soon as you show some one the character sale thread that character's history is pretty much void. this idea doesn't cheapen eve - eve is already that cheap. How do you follow the history of the person if you can't follow his shell, because he just guts it after each major scam. I guess the honest players would be against this. All of the scammers rejoice! There is a thing called API which allow you to check history of character with his permision. Especially from whom he recived initial money or SP injectors. |
Eschin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 16:27:54 -
[2537] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Eschin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Eschin wrote:There is more to it than that.... a character's name and reputation now becomes moot because they are just shells housing SP... a character should be an analogue to somebody a real person not just a mix of skills that can be bought and sold. It cheapens Eve. just like a ship is a shell housing a pod. if my ship's slow i'll buy a faster one. if my pilot can't fly that faster one i'll buy one that can. it's a nice romantic idea that that "history should matter" but - it doesn't. the history of a person matters, the history of a specific character doesn't. as soon as you show some one the character sale thread that character's history is pretty much void. this idea doesn't cheapen eve - eve is already that cheap. How do you follow the history of the person if you can't follow his shell, because he just guts it after each major scam. I guess the honest players would be against this. All of the scammers rejoice! the same way you follow the history of a person who just started. it's no different to starting a new alt - you don't know if that person is new to eve or a 10 year vet who spun up a new character. it's not like these "problems" and "exceptions" are new.
There really are... Account API's and character sales... in the future when you have no idea where the SP came from or where it went, you really have no idea and no way to figure out, names mean nothing. Reputation is the only deterrent you have really against scamming in Eve. Who thinks we need more folks gaming the system or more scammers in Eve? |
Karin Yang
Eye Of Insight SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 16:30:40 -
[2538] - Quote
Eschin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Eschin wrote:There is more to it than that.... a character's name and reputation now becomes moot because they are just shells housing SP... a character should be an analogue to somebody a real person not just a mix of skills that can be bought and sold. It cheapens Eve. just like a ship is a shell housing a pod. if my ship's slow i'll buy a faster one. if my pilot can't fly that faster one i'll buy one that can. it's a nice romantic idea that that "history should matter" but - it doesn't. the history of a person matters, the history of a specific character doesn't. as soon as you show some one the character sale thread that character's history is pretty much void. this idea doesn't cheapen eve - eve is already that cheap. How do you follow the history of the person if you can't follow his shell, because he just guts it after each major scam. I guess the honest players would be against this. All of the scammers rejoice! In eve the scenario is: someone chats with me in a channel as A, then he switch to alt B and make contract with me, then maybe he buy a C and form a fleet with me later. It doesn't matter which character he is using. For me it's the same. I am interact with the person, not the character. If he did something bad to me as A. I will block all of his alts. So you see? Characters are only shells already in current eve. |
Chrome Veinss
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 16:34:18 -
[2539] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Eschin wrote:There is more to it than that.... a character's name and reputation now becomes moot because they are just shells housing SP... a character should be an analogue to somebody a real person not just a mix of skills that can be bought and sold. It cheapens Eve. just like a ship is a shell housing a pod. if my ship's slow i'll buy a faster one. if my pilot can't fly that faster one i'll buy one that can. it's a nice romantic idea that that "history should matter" but - it doesn't. the history of a person matters, the history of a specific character doesn't. as soon as you show some one the character sale thread that character's history is pretty much void. this idea doesn't cheapen eve - eve is already that cheap.
The vast majority of players care about their characters and history and whatever (this includes me, I would never sell this character or buy a character), they might even roleplay and have emotional connections to their character. On the other hand there are people with 10 accounts that one day might notice 30 forgotten plex in one of their ship's cargoholds and decide to get a yolo mcswag falcon alt because their links alt, combat scanner alt and interdictor alt aren't quite enough
For some reason, this is fine and doesn't cheapens the game at all. But me getting a 500k sp packet to get heavy missiles V a week earlier is terrible for the game and we should all cancel our subscriptions because CCP dared mention the idea |
BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
477
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 16:37:31 -
[2540] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Eschin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Eschin wrote:What are you saying really this is completely ok or the game is already pay to win? having sp is hardly "winning". the fact that you can already sell one set of SP and buy another set of SP via the character bazzar... yes, i'm saying this new idea is completely ok. it's not like this idea is new to eve. There is more to it than that.... a character's name and reputation now becomes moot because they are just shells housing SP... a character should be an analogue to somebody a real person not just a mix of skills that can be bought and sold. It cheapens Eve. Why do people keep blathering about reputation? In all of EVE history, maybe a hundred pilots have any reputation of note and I'm pretty sure they won't be breaking down their characters any time soon. Can we just put that tired excuse to bed now? It's getting really redundant. Mr Epeen Exactly...
Reputation is a meaningless joke, only looked at by other EVE players if anyone. I swear some people forget this is nothing more than a bloody game...
|
|
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 16:39:34 -
[2541] - Quote
Eschin wrote:There really are... Account API's and character sales... in the future when you have no idea where the SP came from or where it went, you really have no idea and no way to figure out, names mean nothing. Reputation is the only deterrent you have really against scamming in Eve. Who thinks we need more folks gaming the system or more scammers in Eve?
you have no idea where the isk came from for a character transfer if they don't want you to know. they can drop stuff in space that can be sold for isk to use.
regardless - none of the issues you've raised are new to the is suggestion. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3023
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 16:44:09 -
[2542] - Quote
Dear Mr Dave Stark, I am most impressed with your campaiging fervour.
Fight the good fight, my dear chap.
This is not a signature.
|
Soltys
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 16:51:31 -
[2543] - Quote
Quote:For some reason, this is fine and doesn't cheapens the game at all. But me getting a 500k sp packet to get heavy missiles V a week earlier is terrible for the game and we should all cancel our subscriptions because CCP dared mention the idea
Terrible how ? It puts you on more equal grounds with the rest.
SP and your "skill" portfolio doesn't measure any actual skill in this game. Your head (learning, practicing) and dedication does.
|
Eschin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 16:56:31 -
[2544] - Quote
We're not talking absolutes here.
Yes, you can get the SP you want now by buying it. So it should be a lot EASIER because it's already currently possible?
Scamming is possible, and it's possible to avoid a bad rap, so let's make it EASIER to avoid one!
There are barriers to entry on what you're saying, we're only after solving a personal problem, tweaking our char a little avoiding wasted SP on our own char or obsolete SP or SP that no longer makes sense for its progression, you're campaigning for changing the whole paradigm for how SP is perceived and used, because Eve is already cheap. So let's make it CHEAPER!
If only we had an Eve Easy button with a credit card slot in it that spammed the message YOU WIN for each transaction. |
Eschin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:02:58 -
[2545] - Quote
Why should anything require effort? Instant gratification! |
Karin Yang
Eye Of Insight SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:04:57 -
[2546] - Quote
Eschin wrote:We're not talking absolutes here.
Yes, you can get the SP you want now by buying it. So it should be a lot EASIER because it's already currently possible?
Scamming is possible, and it's possible to avoid a bad rap, so let's make it EASIER to avoid one!
There are barriers to entry on what you're saying, we're only after solving a personal problem, tweaking our char a little avoiding wasted SP on our own char or obsolete SP or SP that no longer makes sense for its progression, you're campaigning for changing the whole paradigm for how SP is perceived and used, because Eve is already cheap. So let's make it CHEAPER!
If only we had an Eve Easy button with a credit card slot in it that spammed the message YOU WIN for each transaction. Because buy one character from bazaar is much cheaper (in ISK) than trans skill into another, this change does not make it cheaper or easier for scammer at all. Buying character is still the only reasonable choice for them. |
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:10:49 -
[2547] - Quote
Eschin wrote:We're not talking absolutes here.
Yes, you can get the SP you want now by buying it. So it should be a lot EASIER because it's already currently possible?
Scamming is possible, and it's possible to avoid a bad rap, so let's make it EASIER to avoid one!
There are barriers to entry on what you're saying, we're only after solving a personal problem, tweaking our char a little avoiding wasted SP on our own char or obsolete SP or SP that no longer makes sense for its progression, you're campaigning for changing the whole paradigm for how SP is perceived and used, because Eve is already cheap. So let's make it CHEAPER!
If only we had an Eve Easy button with a credit card slot in it that spammed the message YOU WIN for each transaction.
you're literally being silly, now. |
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:11:44 -
[2548] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Soltys wrote:Quote:For some reason, this is fine and doesn't cheapens the game at all. But me getting a 500k sp packet to get heavy missiles V a week earlier is terrible for the game and we should all cancel our subscriptions because CCP dared mention the idea Terrible how ? It puts you on more equal grounds with the rest. SP and your "skill" portfolio doesn't measure any actual skill in this game. Your head (learning, practicing) and dedication does. If there is no correlation between SP's and in game skill then why would you need to be instantly boosted by the need for in game purchasing of skillpoints ??
because no matter how good you are at flying a carrier - it doesn't matter if you can't actually fly a carrier. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25751
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:12:08 -
[2549] - Quote
From https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3p0l7s/my_thoughts_on_sp_trading_as_a_whole_not_a_rant/cw2698n
Elise Randolph wrote:The devblog created kind of a huge shitstorm in the first hour or so, and I only saw two CSM's who were capable of expressing their opinion without hopping into the cesspool and slinging ****: Sort and Gorski. So mad props to those two. The big drawbacks that I've seen are
- People will make SP farming toons
- It'll be harder to evaluate character SP based on age
- Older players will abuse this to gain an insurmountable advantage
And probably some others. For the first bit...yea probably. But guess what? People currently make specialized characters to sell on the Bazaar. This doesn't cheapen any part of the game. Assessing character skill based on age will be a bit harder, but if that's a huge issue it's really easy to fix. There is no part of the brain-bag system that prevents adding a skillpoint tab to show info. I don't think it's a problem but v0v if it is, easy fix irrelevant to the mechanic. The third part is what gets me mega confused. Why would I spend billions of isk to get like 1mil unallocated SP? I have a hard enough time trying to choose what to train as is. The main argument I see is "because they can". Which a) I'm not sure how that's a real argument and b) wutface. Yea I could buy tons of **** and destroy it for no reason. In Eve, people aren't dumb. Players tend to spend their time doing things that'll help them. Newer players, especially those that catch the Eve bug early, will benefit from this. I started a new character last year or so and wanted to see what it was like. In the first 3 weeks I had a lot of fun, I flew a frigate, I PvP'd, I did missions. It was a blast. I was playing like 3 hours a night 4 times a week and made a fair amount of ISK from looting and salvaging. I had like, 3 bil by the end of 3 weeks. Then I hit this wall. Can't really try something new, can't fly T2 for a month, can't move up to cruisers that effectively, I had so much to catch up on in terms of support skills that I couldn't even consider moving up to a new class. And then I just stopped playing. Luckily I had a main to fall back on, but imagine if I was just John Q Pubbie. Three billion isn't enough to buy a new character on the forums. What if I could leverage my activity in the game (isk) to get 4 million SP and start moving on. There is of course this notion that misery loves company; when I started playing Eve I had to just train and not do anything for a few months - so everyone else should too! Right? I'd much rather see those people who are really into the game keep playing so that I can see them in space and interact with them. Getting people sucked into Eve for a few years instead of a few months? That's maximizing the misery right there. SKINS seems like monetization (one that the players have been begging for), but this doesn't. Maybe it's because I feel like the base mechanic has existed forever. If these brain bags were coming out of the ether instead of other pilots' heads, then I'd be screaming "cash grab". When a new idea comes out there are two things to talk about: the core principles of the idea, and the specific mechanics around that core. Personally I think the core idea is sound, though I am the first to admit that there should be some tweaks. In classic /r/Eve fashion the only data I have is rhetorical evidence based on when I played the game ten years ago, but damn if I don't feel entitled to have that listened to. So if we as a community can agree that the core principles are OK, regardless the presentation of the idea, then we can talk about the guts that make it work.
And I wish I could shout you out
|
Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two Reckoning Star Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:12:58 -
[2550] - Quote
Eschin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Eschin wrote:What are you saying really this is completely ok or the game is already pay to win? having sp is hardly "winning". the fact that you can already sell one set of SP and buy another set of SP via the character bazzar... yes, i'm saying this new idea is completely ok. it's not like this idea is new to eve. There is more to it than that.... a character's name and reputation now becomes moot because they are just shells housing SP... a character should be an analogue to somebody a real person not just a mix of skills that can be bought and sold. It cheapens Eve.
Your reasoning to not support this change is also a good argument why this change is good.....
If a person is forced to use skill packets because the character bazaar is gone, then the choices he makes will effect his main character, or generally same accounts. Wiping bad history by purchasing new accounts and characters is more difficult (still possible at increased cost)
|
|
Eschin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:13:19 -
[2551] - Quote
Karin Yang wrote:Eschin wrote:We're not talking absolutes here.
Yes, you can get the SP you want now by buying it. So it should be a lot EASIER because it's already currently possible?
Scamming is possible, and it's possible to avoid a bad rap, so let's make it EASIER to avoid one!
There are barriers to entry on what you're saying, we're only after solving a personal problem, tweaking our char a little avoiding wasted SP on our own char or obsolete SP or SP that no longer makes sense for its progression, you're campaigning for changing the whole paradigm for how SP is perceived and used, because Eve is already cheap. So let's make it CHEAPER!
If only we had an Eve Easy button with a credit card slot in it that spammed the message YOU WIN for each transaction. Because buy one character from bazaar is much cheaper (in ISK) than trans skill into another, this change does not make it cheaper or easier for scammer at all. Buying character is still the only reasonable choice for them.
I hope it will stay that way, but the point from Mr. Stark was you can just ask for the perfect char possibly in the future for folks where isk and cash isnt an issue.
So at some pointm you can buy everything you would ever want, reputation, skillpoints, isk... it's almost like you can... pay to win? |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
852
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:14:25 -
[2552] - Quote
Querns wrote:Gilbaron wrote:two very dangerous things:
1. this allows experienced people who have done something "terrible" a fresh start WITH SP and WITHOUT having to use the bazarr
Why is this a bad thing? The purported focus of this game is hard decisions and dealing with the consequences. It's neither good nor bad just game breaking. Not breaking like the game won't work but breaking from one of the core concepts that the game has been based around. |
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:14:41 -
[2553] - Quote
Eschin wrote:I hope it will stay that way, but the point from Mr. Stark was you can just ask for the perfect char possibly in the future for folks where isk and cash isnt an issue.
no, that was what i said about your suggestion of only being able to reallocate your own SP instead of being able to buy and sell it. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25751
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:19:39 -
[2554] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:If there is no correlation between SP's and in game skill then why would you need to be instantly boosted by the need for in game purchasing of skillpoints ?? I think a better question to ask is, if you agree that SPs do not confer skill to play the game, then why does the idea of buying SPs bother you?
And I wish I could shout you out
|
Eschin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:19:45 -
[2555] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:Querns wrote:Gilbaron wrote:two very dangerous things:
1. this allows experienced people who have done something "terrible" a fresh start WITH SP and WITHOUT having to use the bazarr
Why is this a bad thing? The purported focus of this game is hard decisions and dealing with the consequences. It's neither good nor bad just game breaking. Not breaking like the game won't work but breaking from one of the core concepts that the game has been based around.
exactly... it's like an easy button... everything is just a transaction away, no thinking necessary... now there may be legitimate times when it's ok but it needs to be restricted not openly bought and sold on the market. Everyone at some point regrets mining? So maybe if you have:
Skilled it up over a year ago You only can reallocate a certain amount for a given timespan And in no way can you 100% repurpose your char in a day and sell it on the character bazaar. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:20:10 -
[2556] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Soltys wrote:Quote:For some reason, this is fine and doesn't cheapens the game at all. But me getting a 500k sp packet to get heavy missiles V a week earlier is terrible for the game and we should all cancel our subscriptions because CCP dared mention the idea Terrible how ? It puts you on more equal grounds with the rest. SP and your "skill" portfolio doesn't measure any actual skill in this game. Your head (learning, practicing) and dedication does. If there is no correlation between SP's and in game skill then why would you need to be instantly boosted by the need for in game purchasing of skillpoints ?? because no matter how good you are at flying a carrier - it doesn't matter if you can't actually fly a carrier.
If you cant actually fly a carrier you have no business boosting your points to be able to fly a carrier |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1807
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:21:24 -
[2557] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:Black Pedro wrote:General Lootit wrote: Yeap I talked about t2 but firstly I miss the point of PLEX investment. There are no such thing as a free PLEX. Every PLEX cost something.
For t1 SP injection doesn't help much because learning time of quee is 2 hours which should allow you to deal 200 dps. With "Small Blaster Specialization" you could get 500 dps.
No, you get a free PLEX if you subscribe a buddy account. It is 100%, absolutely free. You can also apply it 1 hour after you start your trial account giving you 60 days of absolutely free training, which will get you just a hair's breadth from 5M SP. And as soon as you apply it you can start to train T2 blasters. With the latest buff to starting SP, you are well on your way to a max DPS catayst alt for free which you can now sell the SP from to run for next to nothing. In order to get your so called "free PLEX" somone must first put 30 days on the account either with another PLEX or real life money. So your "free PLEX" isn't really free. Also when they added the new higher starting skill points they also got rid of the extreemely fast training for new players. So I think that it winds up being a bit of a wash. My only problem with that is that they insulate new players a bit from their own ignorance which I think is a shame. This game used to be all about learning from your mistakes. It's exactly free. You spend 1 PLEX to activate the account and you get one back in return. You have spent nothing and have now an active account with 60 days game time.
I don't see why so many people are having a hard time with this concept. |
Dave stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:21:42 -
[2558] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Soltys wrote:Quote:For some reason, this is fine and doesn't cheapens the game at all. But me getting a 500k sp packet to get heavy missiles V a week earlier is terrible for the game and we should all cancel our subscriptions because CCP dared mention the idea Terrible how ? It puts you on more equal grounds with the rest. SP and your "skill" portfolio doesn't measure any actual skill in this game. Your head (learning, practicing) and dedication does. If there is no correlation between SP's and in game skill then why would you need to be instantly boosted by the need for in game purchasing of skillpoints ?? because no matter how good you are at flying a carrier - it doesn't matter if you can't actually fly a carrier. If you cant actually fly a carrier you have no business boosting your points to be able to fly a carrier
"if you haven't arbitrarily waited a few months for sp to accumulate, you have no business being able to fly a carrier"
are you aware how dumb that is? you shouldn't be flying a ship because you didn't wait an arbitrary amount of time? |
Cut Eye
Mining Laser Dot Org
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:23:46 -
[2559] - Quote
Please don't. I know i unsubbed for a while but I came back... not because of some silly rebalancing or sov changes...
because there was new ships and new modules...
Please no... I want to love you... I've been trying to convince the wife to visit Iceland... why this? is this your payback? why? please... can't we go to couples therapy or something?
I don't need to explain everyone else opposed to it has listed all the reasons. Just don't. I think many people would rather see golden ships and ammo for sale for AUR as long as they can be resold for ISK, rather than this. No, I know its not the same. This is worse. Its like buying and selling levels.
How about I'M ASKING YOU NOT TO DO THIS AND I REALLY LIKE YOUR GAME AND I AM SAYING I DO NOT WANT THIS IN THE GAME
How's that? I guess we'll see from your reaction.
If you want to make eve better just new ships new modules, I'll buy skins if they look cool maybe.
Not this.
Oh well, at least I can say I tried.
|
Karin Yang
Eye Of Insight SpaceMonkey's Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:28:11 -
[2560] - Quote
Cut Eye wrote:Please don't. I know i unsubbed for a while but I came back... not because of some silly rebalancing or sov changes...
because there was new ships and new modules...
Please no... I want to love you... I've been trying to convince the wife to visit Iceland... why this? is this your payback? why? please... can't we go to couples therapy or something?
I don't need to explain everyone else opposed to it has listed all the reasons. Just don't. I think many people would rather see golden ships and ammo for sale for AUR as long as they can be resold for ISK, rather than this. No, I know its not the same. This is worse. Its like buying and selling levels.
How about I'M ASKING YOU NOT TO DO THIS AND I REALLY LIKE YOUR GAME AND I AM SAYING I DO NOT WANT THIS IN THE GAME
How's that? I guess we'll see from your reaction.
If you want to make eve better just new ships new modules, I'll buy skins if they look cool maybe.
Not this.
Oh well, at least I can say I tried.
I find that it sounds exactly the same. https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3oz450/this_new_thingit_is_bad/ |
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9261
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:29:26 -
[2561] - Quote
Eschin wrote: And in no way can you 100% repurpose your char in a day and sell it on the character bazaar.
No one will ever do that anyway. Unless they are altruistically trying to remove excess ISK from the game.
Every packet added to a character is that much more ISK removed from the game at sale time. Complete waste of ISK to do that.
No one with half a brain is going to add SP to a character that will sell at half what they paid to make it. To be competitive with characters trained the old fashioned way, you need to train the old fashioned way. Period.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Eschin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:30:03 -
[2562] - Quote
Stark wrote:
"if you haven't arbitrarily waited a few months for sp to accumulate, you have no business being able to fly a carrier"
are you aware how dumb that is? you shouldn't be flying a ship because you didn't wait an arbitrary amount of time?
Is that any less dumb then a day 1 old char trying to pilot a Raven?
I think the time element of SP is actually a good thing in general. Yes the bazaar circumvents that, but again i'm not a huge fan of that anyway or the Plex for isk thing. Of course actually really earning it... showing that you understand it to obtain it would be more optimal but isn't this better than buying the skill outright without having to invest the time? (via whatever method) I don't have to like all elements of the game currently to disagree with a change in the game mechanics do I? |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
855
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:32:26 -
[2563] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:GOD NO!!!
What the **** is this? EA? But you know what? You will be doing it anyways regardless of players outcry in this thread, you as well could have saved you the time posting this thread. This is a marketing / PR move. They allow discussion on the topic so you feel like you were listened to. Then they do what they had planned on anyways. It's a means of softening the blow. Sugar coating is another way to put it.
This happens in politics all the time. Let people vent. Pretend like you care. Then do as you please.
Similarly this is what the court jester's role was. He was an emotional pressure relief that prevented the populous from showing up at the front gates with pitch forks. |
Eschin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:34:08 -
[2564] - Quote
This is true. Happens in business all the time, you go to meetings where you talk about something, but it's only really meant to convince than determine anything. |
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:35:15 -
[2565] - Quote
Eschin wrote:Stark wrote:
"if you haven't arbitrarily waited a few months for sp to accumulate, you have no business being able to fly a carrier"
are you aware how dumb that is? you shouldn't be flying a ship because you didn't wait an arbitrary amount of time?
Is that any less dumb then a day 1 old char trying to pilot a Raven?
I think the time element of SP is actually a good thing in general. Yes the bazaar circumvents that, but again i'm not a huge fan of that anyway or the Plex for isk thing. Of course actually really earning it... showing that you understand it to obtain it would be more optimal but isn't this better than buying the skill outright without having to invest the time? (via whatever method) I don't have to like all elements of the game currently to disagree with a change in the game mechanics do I?
it's irrelevant what the ship is in the example.
if you haven't got a clue how to fly a ship, you haven't got a clue how to fly it. setting a skill queue for 6 days, or 6 weeks, or 6 months won't change that. |
tainted demon
Danger Gnomes Vendetta Mercenary Group
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:38:55 -
[2566] - Quote
I don't understand the point of this new change other than to **** off your entire player base.
why not make this so i can re distribute my SP or some of it 1 time a year like remapping attributes this way if you make a ship i have a lot of SP in useless (CAPS) i can put that SP into other skills and ships that fit the meta. Why would i have to pay CCP for SP when i already pay a subscription for the SP I'm transferring (if I'm moving SP about between my own accounts?)
The 1 thing that keeps me in this game is I have alot of TIME invested. 6 months for a sleipnir is a long time to wait to fly 1 ship ect. what is the point of wasting all that time if i can just buy 20mil SP and get it over night. EVE will loose the 1 thing it has holding it's older players the TIME we have all spent training for what we want
Speaking of older players if this is going to go ahead can you explain the reason why old players with more SP are being punished for supporting your game for the many years they have?
WILL CCP's NEXT CHANGE MAKE PLEX'S ADD LESS GAME TIME FOR OLDER PLAYERS? NEW PLAYERS GET 30 DAYS OLD PLAYERS GET 10 DAYS
seems to me that is where we are going these days |
Cut Eye
Mining Laser Dot Org
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:39:03 -
[2567] - Quote
FZappa wrote:beside this reeking of pay to win (which can already be done today by buying a character off the bazaar) this messes up our ability to asses a character risk level by looking at its age. for example , that lone 3 day old character in system with me is not much of a risk.. suddenly , he decloaks in a bomber , points me , and lights a covops cyno for his blops buddies in other words , this can be exploited to game breaking levels by either players with deep wallets or vast sums of isk handy . Another fine point.
|
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:39:27 -
[2568] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:But on a more serious not if CCP takes their game design decisions based upon redit feedback then we would be playing a wow clone before you know it.
i see you've never been to reddit before. |
Eschin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:40:39 -
[2569] - Quote
This is beginning to convince me that some people's votes are bought and paid for. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
196
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:42:07 -
[2570] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:"if you haven't arbitrarily waited a few months for sp to accumulate, you have no business being able to fly a carrier"
are you aware how dumb that is? you shouldn't be flying a ship because you didn't wait an arbitrary amount of time? The concept of progression is pretty standard in video games. Some games may give you the illusion that you can access level 80 straight away by grinding for it, but the reality is that they have worked it out so that you arrive at that specific piece of content at a certain time. All video games work in this way.
Your complaint is equivalent to someone wanting to watch the end of the movie to find out what happens without watching the start or the middle, and then you would probably turn around and wonder why the movie sucked. There is a reason why everything can't be accessed on day one.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:42:21 -
[2571] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:Black Pedro wrote:General Lootit wrote: Yeap I talked about t2 but firstly I miss the point of PLEX investment. There are no such thing as a free PLEX. Every PLEX cost something.
For t1 SP injection doesn't help much because learning time of quee is 2 hours which should allow you to deal 200 dps. With "Small Blaster Specialization" you could get 500 dps.
No, you get a free PLEX if you subscribe a buddy account. It is 100%, absolutely free. You can also apply it 1 hour after you start your trial account giving you 60 days of absolutely free training, which will get you just a hair's breadth from 5M SP. And as soon as you apply it you can start to train T2 blasters. With the latest buff to starting SP, you are well on your way to a max DPS catayst alt for free which you can now sell the SP from to run for next to nothing. In order to get your so called "free PLEX" somone must first put 30 days on the account either with another PLEX or real life money. So your "free PLEX" isn't really free. Also when they added the new higher starting skill points they also got rid of the extreemely fast training for new players. So I think that it winds up being a bit of a wash. My only problem with that is that they insulate new players a bit from their own ignorance which I think is a shame. This game used to be all about learning from your mistakes. It's exactly free. You spend 1 PLEX to activate the account and you get one back in return. You have lost nothing and have now an active account with 60 days game time. I don't see why so many people are having a hard time with this concept.
AFAIK this ended quite a while ago, the only way to get the plex now is to actually sub with a card, you get nothing subbing with a plex |
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:42:41 -
[2572] - Quote
tainted demon wrote:I don't understand the point of this new change other than to **** off your entire player base.
why not make this so i can re distribute my SP or some of it 1 time a year like remapping attributes this way if you make a ship i have a lot of SP in useless (CAPS) i can put that SP into other skills and ships that fit the meta. Why would i have to pay CCP for SP when i already pay a subscription for the SP I'm transferring (if I'm moving SP about between my own accounts?)
The 1 thing that keeps me in this game is I have alot of TIME invested. 6 months for a sleipnir is a long time to wait to fly 1 ship ect. what is the point of wasting all that time if i can just buy 20mil SP and get it over night. EVE will loose the 1 thing it has holding it's older players the TIME we have all spent training for what we want
Speaking of older players if this is going to go ahead can you explain the reason why old players with more SP are being punished for supporting your game for the many years they have?
WILL CCP's NEXT CHANGE MAKE PLEX'S ADD LESS GAME TIME FOR OLDER PLAYERS? NEW PLAYERS GET 30 DAYS OLD PLAYERS GET 10 DAYS
seems to me that is where we are going these days
because as we've gone through in the last like 5 pages - the ultimate outcome of "remapping my own sp" ends up with the same situation as just buying and selling SP via the proposal. in both situations you end up with a character with the allocated exactly as you want it.
you can already buy 20m sp over night, it's called the character bazaar.
if you read the devblog they explain exactly why there's a diminishing returns system. honestly, i feel like people need to actually read the devblog before posting. |
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:43:43 -
[2573] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:"if you haven't arbitrarily waited a few months for sp to accumulate, you have no business being able to fly a carrier"
are you aware how dumb that is? you shouldn't be flying a ship because you didn't wait an arbitrary amount of time? The concept of progression is pretty standard in video games. Some games may give you the illusion that you can access level 80 straight away by grinding for it, but the reality is that they have worked it out so that you arrive at that specific piece of content at a certain time. All video games work in this way. Your complaint is equivalent to someone wanting to watch the end of the movie to find out what happens without watching the start or the middle, and then you would probably turn around and wonder why the movie sucked. There is a reason why everything can't be accessed on day one.
except everything can be accessed on day one in eve. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
197
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:46:59 -
[2574] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:But on a more serious not if CCP takes their game design decisions based upon redit feedback then we would be playing a wow clone before you know it.
i see you've never been to reddit before. I had a look on it during the ship skin bug fiasco and all I saw was petulant children stamping their feet because they couldn't customise their ships however they wanted. Also the post linked above is very similar to the childish posting I observed before.
I don't think redit has ever come out with any proposal or contribution to the game that is sensible or noteworthy apart from the Pizza for CCP which was good, although that was mainly to make up for how bad some of them had behaved towards CC{ Fozzie and had nothing to do with game design.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Dave Stark
7578
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:48:34 -
[2575] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:But on a more serious not if CCP takes their game design decisions based upon redit feedback then we would be playing a wow clone before you know it.
i see you've never been to reddit before. I had a look on it during the ship skin bug fiasco and all I saw was petulant children stamping their feet because they couldn't customise their ships however they wanted. Also the post linked above is very similar to the childish posting I observed before. I don't think redit has ever come out with any proposal or contribution to the game that is sensible or noteworthy apart from the Pizza for CCP which was good, although that was mainly to make up for how bad some of them had behaved towards CC{ Fozzie and had nothing to do with game design.
i'm actually stunned that the sarcasm went that far over your head. |
Karin Yang
Eye Of Insight SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:50:12 -
[2576] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:But on a more serious not if CCP takes their game design decisions based upon redit feedback then we would be playing a wow clone before you know it.
i see you've never been to reddit before. I had a look on it during the ship skin bug fiasco and all I saw was petulant children stamping their feet because they couldn't customise their ships however they wanted. Also the post linked above is very similar to the childish posting I observed before. I don't think redit has ever come out with any proposal or contribution to the game that is sensible or noteworthy apart from the Pizza for CCP which was good, although that was mainly to make up for how bad some of them had behaved towards CC{ Fozzie and had nothing to do with game design. At least there are post like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3p0l7s/my_thoughts_on_sp_trading_as_a_whole_not_a_rant/ and this: [GÇô]EliseRandolphPandemic Legion 59 points 22 hours ago The devblog created kind of a huge shitstorm in the first hour or so, and I only saw two CSM's who were capable of expressing their opinion without hopping into the cesspool and slinging ****: Sort and Gorski. So mad props to those two. The big drawbacks that I've seen are People will make SP farming toons It'll be harder to evaluate character SP based on age Older players will abuse this to gain an insurmountable advantage And probably some others. For the first bit...yea probably. But guess what? People currently make specialized characters to sell on the Bazaar. This doesn't cheapen any part of the game. Assessing character skill based on age will be a bit harder, but if that's a huge issue it's really easy to fix. There is no part of the brain-bag system that prevents adding a skillpoint tab to show info. I don't think it's a problem but v0v if it is, easy fix irrelevant to the mechanic. The third part is what gets me mega confused. Why would I spend billions of isk to get like 1mil unallocated SP? I have a hard enough time trying to choose what to train as is. The main argument I see is "because they can". Which a) I'm not sure how that's a real argument and b) wutface. Yea I could buy tons of **** and destroy it for no reason. In Eve, people aren't dumb. Players tend to spend their time doing things that'll help them. Newer players, especially those that catch the Eve bug early, will benefit from this. I started a new character last year or so and wanted to see what it was like. In the first 3 weeks I had a lot of fun, I flew a frigate, I PvP'd, I did missions. It was a blast. I was playing like 3 hours a night 4 times a week and made a fair amount of ISK from looting and salvaging. I had like, 3 bil by the end of 3 weeks. Then I hit this wall. Can't really try something new, can't fly T2 for a month, can't move up to cruisers that effectively, I had so much to catch up on in terms of support skills that I couldn't even consider moving up to a new class. And then I just stopped playing. Luckily I had a main to fall back on, but imagine if I was just John Q Pubbie. Three billion isn't enough to buy a new character on the forums. What if I could leverage my activity in the game (isk) to get 4 million SP and start moving on. There is of course this notion that misery loves company; when I started playing Eve I had to just train and not do anything for a few months - so everyone else should too! Right? I'd much rather see those people who are really into the game keep playing so that I can see them in space and interact with them. Getting people sucked into Eve for a few years instead of a few months? That's maximizing the misery right there. SKINS seems like monetization (one that the players have been begging for), but this doesn't. Maybe it's because I feel like the base mechanic has existed forever. If these brain bags were coming out of the ether instead of other pilots' heads, then I'd be screaming "cash grab". When a new idea comes out there are two things to talk about: the core principles of the idea, and the specific mechanics around that core. Personally I think the core idea is sound, though I am the first to admit that there should be some tweaks. In classic /r/Eve fashion the only data I have is rhetorical evidence based on when I played the game ten years ago, but damn if I don't feel entitled to have that listened to. So if we as a community can agree that the core principles are OK, regardless the presentation of the idea, then we can talk about the guts that make it work.
And post here are like this: "This new thingGÇöit is bad!" |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
197
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:50:24 -
[2577] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:"if you haven't arbitrarily waited a few months for sp to accumulate, you have no business being able to fly a carrier"
are you aware how dumb that is? you shouldn't be flying a ship because you didn't wait an arbitrary amount of time? The concept of progression is pretty standard in video games. Some games may give you the illusion that you can access level 80 straight away by grinding for it, but the reality is that they have worked it out so that you arrive at that specific piece of content at a certain time. All video games work in this way. Your complaint is equivalent to someone wanting to watch the end of the movie to find out what happens without watching the start or the middle, and then you would probably turn around and wonder why the movie sucked. There is a reason why everything can't be accessed on day one. except everything can be accessed on day one in eve. Yes which is dumb and is generally discouraged. Putting SP onto the market will make new players feel like they need to grind to skip content they are not ready for when they should just be able to enjoy the starting experience as it unfolds through the passive training system. This was touted as one of the advantages of Eve over MMORPGs in all but recent years; what has changed?
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1807
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:50:37 -
[2578] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Black Pedro wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:Black Pedro wrote:General Lootit wrote: Yeap I talked about t2 but firstly I miss the point of PLEX investment. There are no such thing as a free PLEX. Every PLEX cost something.
For t1 SP injection doesn't help much because learning time of quee is 2 hours which should allow you to deal 200 dps. With "Small Blaster Specialization" you could get 500 dps.
No, you get a free PLEX if you subscribe a buddy account. It is 100%, absolutely free. You can also apply it 1 hour after you start your trial account giving you 60 days of absolutely free training, which will get you just a hair's breadth from 5M SP. And as soon as you apply it you can start to train T2 blasters. With the latest buff to starting SP, you are well on your way to a max DPS catayst alt for free which you can now sell the SP from to run for next to nothing. In order to get your so called "free PLEX" somone must first put 30 days on the account either with another PLEX or real life money. So your "free PLEX" isn't really free. Also when they added the new higher starting skill points they also got rid of the extreemely fast training for new players. So I think that it winds up being a bit of a wash. My only problem with that is that they insulate new players a bit from their own ignorance which I think is a shame. This game used to be all about learning from your mistakes. It's exactly free. You spend 1 PLEX to activate the account and you get one back in return. You have lost nothing and have now an active account with 60 days game time. I don't see why so many people are having a hard time with this concept. AFAIK this ended quite a while ago, the only way to get the plex now is to actually sub with a card, you get nothing subbing with a plex No, the Buddy Invite program is still in full effect. You get either 30-days game time or a PLEX for having a buddy (or your new ganker alt accout) subscribe, even if they use a PLEX to do so. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:54:46 -
[2579] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:tainted demon wrote:I don't understand the point of this new change other than to **** off your entire player base.
why not make this so i can re distribute my SP or some of it 1 time a year like remapping attributes this way if you make a ship i have a lot of SP in useless (CAPS) i can put that SP into other skills and ships that fit the meta. Why would i have to pay CCP for SP when i already pay a subscription for the SP I'm transferring (if I'm moving SP about between my own accounts?)
The 1 thing that keeps me in this game is I have alot of TIME invested. 6 months for a sleipnir is a long time to wait to fly 1 ship ect. what is the point of wasting all that time if i can just buy 20mil SP and get it over night. EVE will loose the 1 thing it has holding it's older players the TIME we have all spent training for what we want
Speaking of older players if this is going to go ahead can you explain the reason why old players with more SP are being punished for supporting your game for the many years they have?
WILL CCP's NEXT CHANGE MAKE PLEX'S ADD LESS GAME TIME FOR OLDER PLAYERS? NEW PLAYERS GET 30 DAYS OLD PLAYERS GET 10 DAYS
seems to me that is where we are going these days because as we've gone through in the last like 5 pages - the ultimate outcome of "remapping my own sp" ends up with the same situation as just buying and selling SP via the proposal. in both situations you end up with a character with the allocated exactly as you want it. you can already buy 20m sp over night, it's called the character bazaar. if you read the devblog they explain exactly why there's a diminishing returns system. honestly, i feel like people need to actually read the devblog before posting.
Like hell it does, Skill packets are nothing like Bazaar toons in any way, same as rehashing a toon Vs the buying fail BS skillpoints way |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:56:23 -
[2580] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:No, the Buddy Invite program is still in full effect. You get either 30-days game time or a PLEX for having a buddy (or your new ganker alt accout) subscribe, even if they use a PLEX to do so. It only supplies PLEX through actual payment.
|
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9261
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:00:34 -
[2581] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:No, the Buddy Invite program is still in full effect. You get either 30-days game time or a PLEX for having a buddy (or your new ganker alt accout) subscribe, even if they use a PLEX to do so.
Buddy Program wrote: To be eligible for rewards, the new Buddy account needs to be activated and the subscription fee for the Buddy account received by CCP. The Buddy account subscription fee may not be paid using DirectDebit, any in-game currency or other game credits, including (but not limited to): PLEX, CD Keys, including CD Keys or CD-Key type Starter Packs purchased or received from non-CCP sources and online stores such as, but not limited to: Amazon Starter Packs, Gamers Gate, and Game Stop.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:02:46 -
[2582] - Quote
Character Bazaar Toon - Legacy character, able to run lvl4 / 5 missions (most of the time) skilled by another and purchased to best suite your needs or wallet
If you could - Remapping your own toon / alt - Take your miner / hauler / indie and use a complete remap to turn it into a decent combat character or vice versa.
FANBOY OPTION - Able to buy skillpoints and either boost or create the optimum toon the bigger your wallet the better it gets !!!
I think that pretty much covers it. |
Cut Eye
Mining Laser Dot Org
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:03:19 -
[2583] - Quote
Well if this bothers you as much as it does me, do what i am gonna do: I am gonna deactivate the renewal on my two accounts and maybe i reup maybe not, i don't know but i sure don't want to be autobilled at this point. At least that is something CCP will look at rather than the bulk of the posts in this thread.
you all think 'newbros' so much more important then you can have 'em. maybe this gets you two new players for each that leaves but, i think the overall net will be fewer players.
|
Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:04:18 -
[2584] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:"if you haven't arbitrarily waited a few months for sp to accumulate, you have no business being able to fly a carrier"
are you aware how dumb that is? you shouldn't be flying a ship because you didn't wait an arbitrary amount of time? The concept of progression is pretty standard in video games. Some games may give you the illusion that you can access level 80 straight away by grinding for it, but the reality is that they have worked it out so that you arrive at that specific piece of content at a certain time. All video games work in this way. Your complaint is equivalent to someone wanting to watch the end of the movie to find out what happens without watching the start or the middle, and then you would probably turn around and wonder why the movie sucked. There is a reason why everything can't be accessed on day one. except everything can be accessed on day one in eve. Yes which is dumb and is generally discouraged. Putting SP onto the market will make new players feel like they need to grind to skip content they are not ready for when they should just be able to enjoy the starting experience as it unfolds through the passive training system. This was touted as one of the advantages of Eve over MMORPGs in all but recent years; what has changed?
generally discouraged? not if you're in the imperium.
putting sp on the market is no different to putting characters on the market. if they feel they have to spend money to skip boring arbitrary waiting times then they'll do it now - this new system won't change that.
it still is an advantage of eve. your character will progress whether you play or not. this means you aren't required to log in to progress. that will still be the case. go on holiday in eve, and you come back to aura telling you that you can do new things. take a holiday from a game like WoW and you find yourself a week behind your guild mates, and then subsequently sidelined from raids because you haven't got the new +5 talisman of having a life, and then you fall further behind cos you can't get gear from raids and you get depressed and throw a tantrum.
nothing has changed - like i say even with how great the passive skill training system is - people have still been bypassing it for ages. |
Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:05:09 -
[2585] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Like hell it does, Skill packets are nothing like Bazaar toons in any way, same as rehashing a toon Vs the buying fail BS skillpoints way
i start with a character with a set of skills i don't want. i end up with a character with a set of skills i do want.
which system am i describing. the new one, or the old one? |
Grandpa Nickles
Omicron Zeta Unit The Ditanian Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:08:01 -
[2586] - Quote
I think we need to focus on the problem of new characters and giving new characters a fair go with the game. Since this proposed solution is focused in this direction.
The honest truth of it is that THIS GAME is absolutely harsh and unforgiving to new players. If we want EVE to grow we need to be a little more forgiving and understanding and help new players along so they can get enjoyment out of this game before they give up on it.
I know there are nay sayers and long time players I'm looking at you, YES I'm also worried about EVE dying, but right now I'm more concerned with a diminishing player base especially with a few alternate titles coming out, something needs to be done.
I have wasted SP's because when I was a new player I didn't know what the game offered or what skills were needed to do what... I thought certificates were achievements... implementing ISIS and the new mastery were awesome and helped to address these issues but more is needed to guide new players towards spending SP's on what they ACTUALLY do in EVE and not what they think they'll like to do... in a few of months, and instead of enjoy their hard trained SP's just regret the time and $'s they just spent on the game.
During my time with EVE I've often found myself leaving it repeatedly. This because at the start I got bored with the few things my character was good at doing, so I only experienced a small part of the game. We've all experienced that at the start, and we all hated it, and it causes EVE to lose players because YES there is consequence, but I need to enjoy this game, not feel like I've ruined my character and lost at EVE. Why put people through something you yourself hated going through?
Instead of bad mouthing the idea and complaining and whining, how about you guys use your brains and give some of your own ideas how we can try and get more players into EVE, and more importantly keep the new starters from losing interest.
I'm not sure if tradeable SP packets is the answer, personally I've prefer a SP resculpture certificate, which I can use to reassign my skillpoints. That way I keep all my own skillpoints (no transferring between characters) get rid of skills relating to things I'm NOT DOING, and put them into things I AM DOING. |
tainted demon
Danger Gnomes Vendetta Mercenary Group
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:13:15 -
[2587] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:tainted demon wrote:I don't understand the point of this new change other than to **** off your entire player base.
why not make this so i can re distribute my SP or some of it 1 time a year like remapping attributes this way if you make a ship i have a lot of SP in useless (CAPS) i can put that SP into other skills and ships that fit the meta. Why would i have to pay CCP for SP when i already pay a subscription for the SP I'm transferring (if I'm moving SP about between my own accounts?)
The 1 thing that keeps me in this game is I have alot of TIME invested. 6 months for a sleipnir is a long time to wait to fly 1 ship ect. what is the point of wasting all that time if i can just buy 20mil SP and get it over night. EVE will loose the 1 thing it has holding it's older players the TIME we have all spent training for what we want
Speaking of older players if this is going to go ahead can you explain the reason why old players with more SP are being punished for supporting your game for the many years they have?
WILL CCP's NEXT CHANGE MAKE PLEX'S ADD LESS GAME TIME FOR OLDER PLAYERS? NEW PLAYERS GET 30 DAYS OLD PLAYERS GET 10 DAYS
seems to me that is where we are going these days because as we've gone through in the last like 5 pages - the ultimate outcome of "remapping my own sp" ends up with the same situation as just buying and selling SP via the proposal. in both situations you end up with a character with the allocated exactly as you want it. you can already buy 20m sp over night, it's called the character bazaar. if you read the devblog they explain exactly why there's a diminishing returns system. honestly, i feel like people need to actually read the devblog before posting.
no i do understand i can buy a 100mil sp toon if i wanted too but then im stuck with whatever skills were trained i cant just train 30 skills to lvl 5 in 2 mins then go fight someone who took 2-3 years to get there. that is a big difference that again only applies to young players not old ones and makes all the time i have invested into my younger alts a complete waste of time
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:14:24 -
[2588] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:"if you haven't arbitrarily waited a few months for sp to accumulate, you have no business being able to fly a carrier"
are you aware how dumb that is? you shouldn't be flying a ship because you didn't wait an arbitrary amount of time? The concept of progression is pretty standard in video games. Some games may give you the illusion that you can access level 80 straight away by grinding for it, but the reality is that they have worked it out so that you arrive at that specific piece of content at a certain time. All video games work in this way. Your complaint is equivalent to someone wanting to watch the end of the movie to find out what happens without watching the start or the middle, and then you would probably turn around and wonder why the movie sucked. There is a reason why everything can't be accessed on day one. except everything can be accessed on day one in eve. Yes which is dumb and is generally discouraged. Putting SP onto the market will make new players feel like they need to grind to skip content they are not ready for when they should just be able to enjoy the starting experience as it unfolds through the passive training system. This was touted as one of the advantages of Eve over MMORPGs in all but recent years; what has changed? An appeal on the tradition of video games is a logical fallacy -- and unhelpful for furthering the conversation. There are obviously no suggestions to implement an XP system because other RPGs have it.
The analogy is equally unhelpful -- video games produce an extra level: interaction. The depth of that interaction often grants the game's prestige, and EVE is a sandbox game. There's still progression through making in-game money and spending it.
You realize that leveling systems are to arbitrarily gate content? What benefit does this have for the ordinary state of the game? Nothing. Leveling in WoW is unsupported content -- the PvP is, ludicrously, single-shot for some classes. SP prevents newbies from the depth of the game -- of which is the reason they've come.
This whole thread is basically on about P2W and what defines that. How about "fun"? Fitting a frigate effectively is more fun that t1 nonsense-fittings because of SP. That's sorta vague, so there are plenty of definitions of fun through motivation. If you won't look that up, none of it comes from SP as a system -- but playing well, being valuable as a character, and exploring.
SP is all paying to have more fun, whether it's through playing Skillqueue Offline for multiple subs or through injector SP. Is that P2W? Yes.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9262
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:14:43 -
[2589] - Quote
Grandpa Nickles wrote:I think we need to focus on the problem of new characters and giving new characters a fair go with the game. Since this proposed solution is focused in this direction.
Not sure how you got that out of the blog.
To me it was about making purchasing SP a little easier and less convoluted. The CB is a mess as it stands and CCP is looking at ways to make it more accessible to everyone, not just newbs.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:15:39 -
[2590] - Quote
tainted demon wrote:Dave Stark wrote:tainted demon wrote:I don't understand the point of this new change other than to **** off your entire player base.
why not make this so i can re distribute my SP or some of it 1 time a year like remapping attributes this way if you make a ship i have a lot of SP in useless (CAPS) i can put that SP into other skills and ships that fit the meta. Why would i have to pay CCP for SP when i already pay a subscription for the SP I'm transferring (if I'm moving SP about between my own accounts?)
The 1 thing that keeps me in this game is I have alot of TIME invested. 6 months for a sleipnir is a long time to wait to fly 1 ship ect. what is the point of wasting all that time if i can just buy 20mil SP and get it over night. EVE will loose the 1 thing it has holding it's older players the TIME we have all spent training for what we want
Speaking of older players if this is going to go ahead can you explain the reason why old players with more SP are being punished for supporting your game for the many years they have?
WILL CCP's NEXT CHANGE MAKE PLEX'S ADD LESS GAME TIME FOR OLDER PLAYERS? NEW PLAYERS GET 30 DAYS OLD PLAYERS GET 10 DAYS
seems to me that is where we are going these days because as we've gone through in the last like 5 pages - the ultimate outcome of "remapping my own sp" ends up with the same situation as just buying and selling SP via the proposal. in both situations you end up with a character with the allocated exactly as you want it. you can already buy 20m sp over night, it's called the character bazaar. if you read the devblog they explain exactly why there's a diminishing returns system. honestly, i feel like people need to actually read the devblog before posting. no i do understand i can buy a 100mil sp toon if i wanted too but then im stuck with whatever skills were trained i cant just train 30 skills to lvl 5 in 2 mins then go fight someone who took 2-3 years to get there. that is a big difference that again only applies to young players not old ones and makes all the time i have invested into my younger alts a complete waste of time
so you buy one with the skills trained that you want. there's more than 1 character on the bazaar.
no, it isn't a big difference. whether you purchase the character wholesale or you hatched one this morning and juiced it up on transneural packets is irrelevant. you're still taking a 100m sp pilot to a fight.
there's no character age limit to buying characters on the bazaar that i know of, and any character will be able to inject packets. so i have no idea what you're talking about with "younger alts being a waste of time". |
|
Station Sitter
Heavy Star Industries
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:16:05 -
[2591] - Quote
Laendra wrote:OMG not only no, but HELL NO. I can't believe you guys even presented this after P2W scandal from a few years ago...
The absolute most I would want (which would be completely awesome)...
Placing some kind of "Neural Net Token" on the contract system (auction or wts).
What this entails is transferring your character (for 2 plex) into the Neural Net, so that only the skills trained come along with it. This deposits a Neural Net Token into your redeeming system that you can redeem and put on contract.
Players can view the contents of the Neural Net Token to see the skill breakdown while it is on contract. Once a player wins the Token, they transfer it to a character on the account to which they want the pilot, and then can extract the pilot from the Neural Net into a blank clone, at which point they are able to set appearance, name, etc. as they see fit.
If you are the creator of the token, you can restore your character completely from the token if you change your mind, and the Plex come back to your redeeming system.
Please, please, for the love of God, do NOT implement what you proposed.
This...this is what you should be doing.... |
Jared Khanar
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:17:31 -
[2592] - Quote
It-¦s amusing to read all this "hey we will all profit from it selling sp-¦s from our active accounts - this will earn us our plex" opinions.
Just to counter this a little bit with another one:
I don-¦t think sp value will be determinated by plex value as with all markets there is demand and ... i know you know ;)
so wich scenarios are possibly happening if this feature hits tranquility?
As literally everyone should have noticed it by then the market will be flooded with sp packages at first. The often mentioned new players are not here - so if they are the main target group this feature aims at (as many like to point out) sp for selling will have literally now value - as noone will buy it... if there are not enough people willing to buy them a huge deflation of sp value will follow. this will also affect character bazaar, maybe to a point when it will be a major loss plexing accounts to train them for selling. (very high sp chars may be excluded) if this happens a lot of people will have spend rl money / ingametime for plexes just to notice that these investments will be burned right away.
The more people selling sps the more value sps are loosing if theres no customer base - the more value sps are loosing, the higher the breaking point at wich there are too many sps on a char to justify the costs.
Now let me add speculation and scamming into this projection, if ccp does not cleary bann abusing, scamming and speculation on this feature. (this is definetly going to happen - don-¦t be naive)
Whats happening if speculation kicks in can be observed looking at the plex price. It may take a short while until the markets are flooded with cheap sps (at least i would wait until this if i would speculate) but then a rise is going to happen over time. This will go on until noone is willing to pay for sps anymore because its not affordable for the average player. (again - look at the plex) The argument "its for the newbz" is clearly invalid! It-¦s for the rich - and noone else.
Another characteristic of eve players is: just throw more ***** at it (*** = insert players, isk, money, power projection, a.s.o.) A coalition of players that wants to stay in control and is able to pay whatever is needed to pay - do whatever is needed to do should realise that sps are now a ressource like ore or gas. If you want to be in charge it-¦s absolutly necessary to control the ressources and possibilities your opponent has access to. So again, this also counts for sps - if your enemies are able to push themselves to your level and compete with your abilities you need to do anything to stop this or at least make it harder and harder for others to do so.
Plexes today gets hoarded although it may be not able for some traders / investors to cash out without damaging their theoretical asset values. This will also happen to sp. they will be bought for speculation, hoarded and all that stuff.
Also in a case like this sp trading is clearly not able to serve any role for new players, expect they have a sufficient rl wallet and are prepared to spend it.
And it goes on:
So lets assume players like to earn the isk they need to plex their account via selling sps - this is only possible if they run multiple accounts. A single account player would be able to do this also, but he / she would instantly stop any characterprogression. So for the average player it-¦s a choice between outcome and progression. a case like this would only extend the gap between the (ingame + rl !!!) rich and poor, disabling the second ones even more to catch up.
As a last one, let-¦s mix some of these thoughts. If sp prices are on a level where it-¦s possible to buy plex on the market, train your sps, extract them via plex (to buy aurum) and even then sell them with a profit, what will happen?
First of all this will destroy massive amounts of plex. plex prices are going to skyrocket to the point where it-¦s not profitable anymore to do so. But this is only counting if sp prices remain static -belive me, they won-¦t. the higher the costs involved, the higher the sp value on sell. So plex prices and sp prices may start rising, puching each other higer and higher. If you take the massive amounts of hoarded plex into account it-¦s clearly a feature seculators dream of and holders of large plex stacks dream of. Only a situation like this will allow them to drop their stacks without destroying the markets.
I don-¦t want to talk about the effects it would have on the character bazaar as sp value will clearly affect it...
Due to all this it seems to me there are only a few small groups clearly in need of this. First of all it-¦s ccp - this will be a massive cash drop for them in a subscription game. The have made something happening which every other gaming company dreams of. TWO Payment models in the same game - subscription and microtransaction - and the resulting pressure in the community to use both of them if you want to be able to play AND compete with others. Second one are the rich players, speculators and scammers that would be enabled to milk the crowd.
Thanks |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1807
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:18:25 -
[2593] - Quote
Dror wrote:Black Pedro wrote:No, the Buddy Invite program is still in full effect. You get either 30-days game time or a PLEX for having a buddy (or your new ganker alt accout) subscribe, even if they use a PLEX to do so. It only supplies PLEX through actual payment. Whatever. It supplies 30 days of gameplay. Which is functionally equivalent to a PLEX for those that pay with PLEX, and of equal value to a month's gametime for those who pay by subscription.
The point is that using the Buddy Program you can get yourself an alt with 60-day training for no extra cost (effectively free). That is enough for a near max DPS ganking alt, a pretty decent PI alt, an effective mining alt or a useful industry alt. You can then harvest the SP each month to cover most of the PLEX cost to keep it running indefinitely - you have effectively a free alt and can do this as many times as you would like.
Whether that is good or not I pass no judgement. This devblog and this thread is to explore this proposal which is what I am doing: this change dramatically lowers the cost of fixed SP alts.
Make of that what you will. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:22:10 -
[2594] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Dror wrote:Black Pedro wrote:No, the Buddy Invite program is still in full effect. You get either 30-days game time or a PLEX for having a buddy (or your new ganker alt accout) subscribe, even if they use a PLEX to do so. It only supplies PLEX through actual payment. Whatever. It supplies 30 days of gameplay. Which is functionally equivalent to a PLEX for those that pay with PLEX, and of equal value to a month's gametime for those who pay by subscription. The point is that using the Buddy Program you can get yourself an alt with 60-day training for no extra cost (effectively free). That is enough for a near max DPS ganking alt, a pretty decent PI alt, an effective mining alt or a useful industry alt. You can then harvest the SP each month to cover most of the PLEX cost to keep it running indefinitely - you have effectively a free alt and can do this as many times as you would like. Whether that is good or not I pass no judgement. This devblog and this thread is to explore this proposal which is what I am doing: this change dramatically lowers the cost of fixed SP alts. Make of that what you will. The point is that they can't just alt themselves a PLEX's worth of injectors.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Eli Depran
Deep Space Conquest
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:22:31 -
[2595] - Quote
Hello o/
I have been playing multiplayer online since the internet craze with the Quake series in the mid-90s, which still remains my favorite experience. However capitalism has become extremely corrupt since then, so I will try to keep this in perspective of the current times.
I'm trying to find some kind of reason to continue playing online games, but it seems there is no more value to actually obtaining items by playing the game, and have been victimized of wallet destroying tactics by businesses in every industry, by the big bully politics all over the world. Nobody wins except the guys making triple (US) digits. The products themselves are just limited time monetary value and there is always a way to get people to spend even more the next time around.
All businesses just teach their employees "customer centric" values that are actually professional bullying tactics. They don't actually have any value in helping the customer, and instead just want you to pay more money. They are not support they are the used car dealership salesman. Although this apparently applies to any company in any industry now.
So instead of finally figuring out a way to have people progress their skills in-game by playing, you were waiting to take advantage of the customers wallet instead. You think that this is a game improvement, but it's not, it's improving your profits at the expense of susceptible gamers.
Maybe because gaming is considered acceptable outside the nerd-realm now that people can play without consequences in life, does this happen at every corner. People pay for their status online, but the gameplay itself has little value. This game has a lot of aces in the hole that can be used, and this is a big one. You will be in customers wallets for quite some time with this. A ton more money in a shorter time period, and they quit after they find out there is no gameplay value to it. Then it's on to the next card and you have plenty of cards.
I don't blame you at all for this, it's just a change of the times, world politics, and business goals. I would have preferred a progression in gameplay in one of the most awesome games and just keep the $15 monthly fee. That way my equipment and arsenal in the game has more personal value to me. However that went out the door a long time ago with PLEX, and I am still playing because it's an interesting game.
- Eli There IS gameplay value in this for me, and because of PLEX this just seems like a good addition. I just would rather have had improvements and additions to gameplay, such as gaining skill points based on NPC/Player kills, finishing a manufacturing job, mining ore, etc. I will use this service, it's just a side effect of a world going in the wrong direction (imo). |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
190
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:22:36 -
[2596] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Grandpa Nickles wrote:I think we need to focus on the problem of new characters and giving new characters a fair go with the game. Since this proposed solution is focused in this direction.
Not sure how you got that out of the blog. To me it was about making purchasing SP a little easier and less convoluted. The CB is a mess as it stands and CCP is looking at ways to make it more accessible to everyone, not just newbs. Mr Epeen
That's weird, you seem to have missed the true meaning. It's CCP's first step into making extra money through pay to win/advance in a subscription based sandbox, and not just any other MMO where things like economy or balance don't exist or matter all that much but here, actually HERE, in EVE.
And what it REALLY is is a test case to see how well the mechanics work and how gullible we are to let p2w slip into this game, slowly getting us used to the idea and then upping it more and more.
Funny, that. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:24:30 -
[2597] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:tainted demon wrote:Dave Stark wrote:tainted demon wrote:I don't understand the point of this new change other than to **** off your entire player base.
why not make this so i can re distribute my SP or some of it 1 time a year like remapping attributes this way if you make a ship i have a lot of SP in useless (CAPS) i can put that SP into other skills and ships that fit the meta. Why would i have to pay CCP for SP when i already pay a subscription for the SP I'm transferring (if I'm moving SP about between my own accounts?)
The 1 thing that keeps me in this game is I have alot of TIME invested. 6 months for a sleipnir is a long time to wait to fly 1 ship ect. what is the point of wasting all that time if i can just buy 20mil SP and get it over night. EVE will loose the 1 thing it has holding it's older players the TIME we have all spent training for what we want
Speaking of older players if this is going to go ahead can you explain the reason why old players with more SP are being punished for supporting your game for the many years they have?
WILL CCP's NEXT CHANGE MAKE PLEX'S ADD LESS GAME TIME FOR OLDER PLAYERS? NEW PLAYERS GET 30 DAYS OLD PLAYERS GET 10 DAYS
seems to me that is where we are going these days because as we've gone through in the last like 5 pages - the ultimate outcome of "remapping my own sp" ends up with the same situation as just buying and selling SP via the proposal. in both situations you end up with a character with the allocated exactly as you want it. you can already buy 20m sp over night, it's called the character bazaar. if you read the devblog they explain exactly why there's a diminishing returns system. honestly, i feel like people need to actually read the devblog before posting. no i do understand i can buy a 100mil sp toon if i wanted too but then im stuck with whatever skills were trained i cant just train 30 skills to lvl 5 in 2 mins then go fight someone who took 2-3 years to get there. that is a big difference that again only applies to young players not old ones and makes all the time i have invested into my younger alts a complete waste of time so you buy one with the skills trained that you want. there's more than 1 character on the bazaar. no, it isn't a big difference. whether you purchase the character wholesale or you hatched one this morning and juiced it up on transneural packets is irrelevant. you're still taking a 100m sp pilot to a fight. there's no character age limit to buying characters on the bazaar that i know of, and any character will be able to inject packets. so i have no idea what you're talking about with "younger alts being a waste of time".
I dont know if your just thick or dodging certain things as you have earlier pointing to look at the blog.
What part of buying a toon from the bazaar with all it good and bad points dont you get thats so vastly different than being able to open your bank account - REAL MONEY - and purchasing skill points to create a perfectly doctrined pilot with zero flaws |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:26:02 -
[2598] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Grandpa Nickles wrote:I think we need to focus on the problem of new characters and giving new characters a fair go with the game. Since this proposed solution is focused in this direction.
Not sure how you got that out of the blog. To me it was about making purchasing SP a little easier and less convoluted. The CB is a mess as it stands and CCP is looking at ways to make it more accessible to everyone, not just newbs. Mr Epeen That's weird, you seem to have missed the true meaning. It's CCP's first step into making extra money through pay to win/advance in a subscription based sandbox, and not just any other MMO where things like economy or balance don't exist or matter all that much but here, actually HERE, in EVE. And what it REALLY is is a test case to see how well the mechanics work and how gullible we are to let p2w slip into this game, slowly getting us used to the idea and then upping it more and more. Funny, that.
Aerasia wrote:If SP = win, then EVE's skill system is P2W in its entirety.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
190
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:28:18 -
[2599] - Quote
Dror wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Grandpa Nickles wrote:I think we need to focus on the problem of new characters and giving new characters a fair go with the game. Since this proposed solution is focused in this direction.
Not sure how you got that out of the blog. To me it was about making purchasing SP a little easier and less convoluted. The CB is a mess as it stands and CCP is looking at ways to make it more accessible to everyone, not just newbs. Mr Epeen That's weird, you seem to have missed the true meaning. It's CCP's first step into making extra money through pay to win/advance in a subscription based sandbox, and not just any other MMO where things like economy or balance don't exist or matter all that much but here, actually HERE, in EVE. And what it REALLY is is a test case to see how well the mechanics work and how gullible we are to let p2w slip into this game, slowly getting us used to the idea and then upping it more and more. Funny, that. Aerasia wrote:If SP = win, then EVE's skill system is P2W in its entirety.
What you mean that gradual increase of capabilities, skills and stats somehow affects performance?
SAY IT AINT SO!
Alert the presses. |
Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:28:25 -
[2600] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:What part of buying a toon from the bazaar with all it good and bad points dont you get thats so vastly different than being able to open your bank account - REAL MONEY - and purchasing skill points to create a perfectly doctrined pilot with zero flaws
you are aware you've just called two things different, that are the same. right?
buying a character from the bazaar with the skills you want is no different to hatching a character today, buying sp, and having the skills that you want.
not to mention, that pilot on the bazaar will be cheaper and the "flaws" are going to essentially be free SP making the character bazaar character better value for money. you can afford to take a character that has more than you want and pay less for it due to the diminishing returns in the suggested system.
both systems use real money, typing it in caps as if that's in anyway relevant makes me chuckle to myself. |
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9263
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:30:06 -
[2601] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Grandpa Nickles wrote:I think we need to focus on the problem of new characters and giving new characters a fair go with the game. Since this proposed solution is focused in this direction.
Not sure how you got that out of the blog. To me it was about making purchasing SP a little easier and less convoluted. The CB is a mess as it stands and CCP is looking at ways to make it more accessible to everyone, not just newbs. Mr Epeen That's weird, you seem to have missed the true meaning. It's CCP's first step into making extra money through pay to win/advance in a subscription based sandbox, and not just any other MMO where things like economy or balance don't exist or matter all that much but here, actually HERE, in EVE. And what it REALLY is is a test case to see how well the mechanics work and how gullible we are to let p2w slip into this game, slowly getting us used to the idea and then upping it more and more. Funny, that. Here's the thing.
Characters are not destructible. They've been piling up SP for near 12 years now. That's not good for the game as I've stated many times in the past.
My solution has been to lock characters to the acct that created them and remove character trading. CCP has come up with a solution that not only drains SP from the game on possibly a massive scale, but keeps money flowing into their coffers from transaction type fees.
It's not quite what I wanted, but I find it an acceptable compromise.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
190
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:32:58 -
[2602] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:What part of buying a toon from the bazaar with all it good and bad points dont you get thats so vastly different than being able to open your bank account - REAL MONEY - and purchasing skill points to create a perfectly doctrined pilot with zero flaws you are aware you've just called two things different, that are the same. right? buying a character from the bazaar with the skills you want is no different to hatching a character today, buying sp, and having the skills that you want. not to mention, that pilot on the bazaar will be cheaper and the "flaws" are going to essentially be free SP making the character bazaar character better value for money. you can afford to take a character that has more than you want and pay less for it due to the diminishing returns in the suggested system. both systems use real money, typing it in caps as if that's in anyway relevant makes me chuckle to myself.
No there's a massive difference but the issue is that some people, like you yourself admitted, are personally interested in this idea so they're never going to openly agree that those differences exist. How many hours of trolling are you going to invest into this thread today, you had quite a long run yesterday. |
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming The Bastion
126
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:34:18 -
[2603] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Grandpa Nickles wrote:I think we need to focus on the problem of new characters and giving new characters a fair go with the game. Since this proposed solution is focused in this direction.
Not sure how you got that out of the blog. To me it was about making purchasing SP a little easier and less convoluted. The CB is a mess as it stands and CCP is looking at ways to make it more accessible to everyone, not just newbs. Mr Epeen
If that was the case the hard caps would be higher and not as inefficient in conversion. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:35:06 -
[2604] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:What part of buying a toon from the bazaar with all it good and bad points dont you get thats so vastly different than being able to open your bank account - REAL MONEY - and purchasing skill points to create a perfectly doctrined pilot with zero flaws you are aware you've just called two things different, that are the same. right? buying a character from the bazaar with the skills you want is no different to hatching a character today, buying sp, and having the skills that you want. not to mention, that pilot on the bazaar will be cheaper and the "flaws" are going to essentially be free SP making the character bazaar character better value for money. you can afford to take a character that has more than you want and pay less for it due to the diminishing returns in the suggested system. both systems use real money, typing it in caps as if that's in anyway relevant makes me chuckle to myself.
Theyre not the same in anyway at all, you keep forgetting about one line at the bottom of the blog that makes all the difference as i stated before.
Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now
If this does create a good source of income, that will disappear. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
190
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:35:50 -
[2605] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Grandpa Nickles wrote:I think we need to focus on the problem of new characters and giving new characters a fair go with the game. Since this proposed solution is focused in this direction.
Not sure how you got that out of the blog. To me it was about making purchasing SP a little easier and less convoluted. The CB is a mess as it stands and CCP is looking at ways to make it more accessible to everyone, not just newbs. Mr Epeen That's weird, you seem to have missed the true meaning. It's CCP's first step into making extra money through pay to win/advance in a subscription based sandbox, and not just any other MMO where things like economy or balance don't exist or matter all that much but here, actually HERE, in EVE. And what it REALLY is is a test case to see how well the mechanics work and how gullible we are to let p2w slip into this game, slowly getting us used to the idea and then upping it more and more. Funny, that. Here's the thing. Characters are not destructible. They've been piling up SP for near 12 years now. That's not good for the game as I've stated many times in the past. My solution has been to lock characters to the acct that created them and remove character trading. CCP has come up with a solution that not only drains SP from the game on possibly a massive scale, but keeps money flowing into their coffers from transaction type fees. It's not quite what I wanted, but I find it an acceptable compromise. Mr Epeen
Why is that "not good", you're just making up bogus :reasons:. There is no need, use or reason to "drain SP" from this game, another bogus :reasoning:.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3533
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:36:39 -
[2606] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Grandpa Nickles wrote:I think we need to focus on the problem of new characters and giving new characters a fair go with the game. Since this proposed solution is focused in this direction.
Not sure how you got that out of the blog. To me it was about making purchasing SP a little easier and less convoluted. The CB is a mess as it stands and CCP is looking at ways to make it more accessible to everyone, not just newbs. Mr Epeen That's weird, you seem to have missed the true meaning. It's CCP's first step into making extra money through pay to win/advance in a subscription based sandbox, and not just any other MMO where things like economy or balance don't exist or matter all that much but here, actually HERE, in EVE. And what it REALLY is is a test case to see how well the mechanics work and how gullible we are to let p2w slip into this game, slowly getting us used to the idea and then upping it more and more. Funny, that. Here's the thing. Characters are not destructible. They've been piling up SP for near 12 years now. That's not good for the game as I've stated many times in the past. My solution has been to lock characters to the acct that created them and remove character trading. CCP has come up with a solution that not only drains SP from the game on possibly a massive scale, but keeps money flowing into their coffers from transaction type fees. It's not quite what I wanted, but I find it an acceptable compromise. Mr Epeen
Massive draining of SP...is not a potential problem.
I think everyone needs to stop posting and go read about fat tailed events. And then rethink this proposal.
Yeah, nobody will do that. Posting knee-jerk reactions or convincing oneself there are no problems are just way too easy instead.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming The Bastion
126
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:36:47 -
[2607] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:What part of buying a toon from the bazaar with all it good and bad points dont you get thats so vastly different than being able to open your bank account - REAL MONEY - and purchasing skill points to create a perfectly doctrined pilot with zero flaws you are aware you've just called two things different, that are the same. right? buying a character from the bazaar with the skills you want is no different to hatching a character today, buying sp, and having the skills that you want. not to mention, that pilot on the bazaar will be cheaper and the "flaws" are going to essentially be free SP making the character bazaar character better value for money. you can afford to take a character that has more than you want and pay less for it due to the diminishing returns in the suggested system. both systems use real money, typing it in caps as if that's in anyway relevant makes me chuckle to myself. No there's a massive difference but the issue is that some people, like you yourself admitted, are personally interested in this idea so they're never going to openly agree that those differences exist. How many hours of trolling are you going to invest into this thread today, you had quite a long run yesterday.
Someone from a corp called say no to features complaining about "trolling" from a forum regular. Talk about Irony. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3533
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:38:25 -
[2608] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:What part of buying a toon from the bazaar with all it good and bad points dont you get thats so vastly different than being able to open your bank account - REAL MONEY - and purchasing skill points to create a perfectly doctrined pilot with zero flaws you are aware you've just called two things different, that are the same. right? buying a character from the bazaar with the skills you want is no different to hatching a character today, buying sp, and having the skills that you want. not to mention, that pilot on the bazaar will be cheaper and the "flaws" are going to essentially be free SP making the character bazaar character better value for money. you can afford to take a character that has more than you want and pay less for it due to the diminishing returns in the suggested system. both systems use real money, typing it in caps as if that's in anyway relevant makes me chuckle to myself. Theyre not the same in anyway at all, you keep forgetting about one line at the bottom of the blog that makes all the difference as i stated before. Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for nowIf this does create a good source of income, that will disappear.
I doubt the bazaar will go away as buying characters with more than 50 million and certainly more than 80 million SP will be more affordable on the bazaar.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:38:35 -
[2609] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:What part of buying a toon from the bazaar with all it good and bad points dont you get thats so vastly different than being able to open your bank account - REAL MONEY - and purchasing skill points to create a perfectly doctrined pilot with zero flaws you are aware you've just called two things different, that are the same. right? buying a character from the bazaar with the skills you want is no different to hatching a character today, buying sp, and having the skills that you want. not to mention, that pilot on the bazaar will be cheaper and the "flaws" are going to essentially be free SP making the character bazaar character better value for money. you can afford to take a character that has more than you want and pay less for it due to the diminishing returns in the suggested system. both systems use real money, typing it in caps as if that's in anyway relevant makes me chuckle to myself. No there's a massive difference but the issue is that some people, like you yourself admitted, are personally interested in this idea so they're never going to openly agree that those differences exist. How many hours of trolling are you going to invest into this thread today, you had quite a long run yesterday.
probably a few more hours then i do this thing called sleep.
there isn't a massive difference at all. humour me; i start with a character with a skillsheet i don't like. i end up with a character with a skill sheet i do like. which system am i describing, the suggested system, or the current one? |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:39:11 -
[2610] - Quote
Grandpa Nickles wrote:I think we need to focus on the problem of new characters and giving new characters a fair go with the game. Since this proposed solution is focused in this direction.
The honest truth of it is that THIS GAME is absolutely harsh and unforgiving to new players. If we want EVE to grow we need to be a little more forgiving and understanding and help new players along so they can get enjoyment out of this game before they give up on it.
I know there are nay sayers and long time players I'm looking at you, YES I'm also worried about EVE dying, but right now I'm more concerned with a diminishing player base especially with a few alternate titles coming out, something needs to be done.
I have wasted SP's because when I was a new player I didn't know what the game offered or what skills were needed to do what... I thought certificates were achievements... implementing ISIS and the new mastery were awesome and helped to address these issues but more is needed to guide new players towards spending SP's on what they ACTUALLY do in EVE and not what they think they'll like to do... in a few of months, and instead of enjoy their hard trained SP's just regret the time and $'s they just spent on the game.
During my time with EVE I've often found myself leaving it repeatedly. This because at the start I got bored with the few things my character was good at doing, so I only experienced a small part of the game. We've all experienced that at the start, and we all hated it, and it causes EVE to lose players because YES there is consequence, but I need to enjoy this game, not feel like I've ruined my character and lost at EVE. Why put people through something you yourself hated going through?
Instead of bad mouthing the idea and complaining and whining, how about you guys use your brains and give some of your own ideas how we can try and get more players into EVE, and more importantly keep the new starters from losing interest.
I'm not sure if tradeable SP packets is the answer, personally I've prefer a SP resculpture certificate, which I can use to reassign my skillpoints. That way I keep all my own skillpoints (no transferring between characters) get rid of skills relating to things I'm NOT DOING, and put them into things I AM DOING.
The main problem with how new players see EVE is that we players all know this, but CCP do not seem to. They hide behind weak circumstantial evidence from low significant numbers for the conclusions they draw. One roll in Twitch, YouTube, Reddit and other social media that is not this forum and you see how people who tried EVE actually felt about it. There is no point in pointing that out, because if someone where to put some thought in all the "New Player Perception" to change it, it would have been done already.
The whole thing is, this is a bad idea, mostly for the new players. They will inherit the New Eden trashed by it, they will be cash cows for vets with SP to sell, and while they farm ISK for the already rich people, the situation for the new players wont really enhance at all. There wont be a better experience for new players, there wont be a worse experience for new players, the actual problem is that there wont be any experience for new players.
The argument that you need to replace a bad idea with a good one to criticize it has no value. It is just a bad idea, period. There is nothing better to do instead, the better idea is to leave it as it is.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1808
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:40:26 -
[2611] - Quote
Dror wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Dror wrote:Black Pedro wrote:No, the Buddy Invite program is still in full effect. You get either 30-days game time or a PLEX for having a buddy (or your new ganker alt accout) subscribe, even if they use a PLEX to do so. It only supplies PLEX through actual payment. Whatever. It supplies 30 days of gameplay. Which is functionally equivalent to a PLEX for those that pay with PLEX, and of equal value to a month's gametime for those who pay by subscription. The point is that using the Buddy Program you can get yourself an alt with 60-day training for no extra cost (effectively free). That is enough for a near max DPS ganking alt, a pretty decent PI alt, an effective mining alt or a useful industry alt. You can then harvest the SP each month to cover most of the PLEX cost to keep it running indefinitely - you have effectively a free alt and can do this as many times as you would like. Whether that is good or not I pass no judgement. This devblog and this thread is to explore this proposal which is what I am doing: this change dramatically lowers the cost of fixed SP alts. Make of that what you will. The point is that they can't just alt themselves a PLEX's worth of injectors. That was never my point. My point is that you've made Eve effectively free-to-play for accounts that don't care about accumulating skill points. That will have profound effects on the economy as everyone can now run as many mining (or PI or industry) alts as they want for a fraction of a PLEX each. It will also enable each ganker to run as many ganking alts as their hardware can handle for practically no additional cost.
That is a massive change over the status quo. Sure, in theory you could do something similar now using the character bazaar and an extra slot on the account, but that requires months or years of planning and the ability to front the significant PLEX cost. Now, any Tom, ****, or Harry can run as many alts as they want and just harvest the SP to pay most of the cost of the next month's PLEX month.
This will impact the economy and provide significant upwards pressure on PLEX prices. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:47:24 -
[2612] - Quote
If you strip away all the people saying about the history, legacy the original concepts blah blah
If you strip away all the fan boys saying its good great, not a problem blah blah
get rid of the alternative skill remaps
Skill points > Money not a 1 off payement but done so that each packet costs
A sub game that is already full of F2P microtranactions now wants to inject a system where people who dont mind pumping in real cash to create elite toons being suggested, also underlying this is that the character bazaar for now is staying, what happens when the injection system is introduced and the CCP declares there no use for a bazaar because you can create the toon of your choice with transnural skill packs
create an awesome toon, play for a few months ..... get bored what next |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3533
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:48:01 -
[2613] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Dror wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Dror wrote:Black Pedro wrote:No, the Buddy Invite program is still in full effect. You get either 30-days game time or a PLEX for having a buddy (or your new ganker alt accout) subscribe, even if they use a PLEX to do so. It only supplies PLEX through actual payment. Whatever. It supplies 30 days of gameplay. Which is functionally equivalent to a PLEX for those that pay with PLEX, and of equal value to a month's gametime for those who pay by subscription. The point is that using the Buddy Program you can get yourself an alt with 60-day training for no extra cost (effectively free). That is enough for a near max DPS ganking alt, a pretty decent PI alt, an effective mining alt or a useful industry alt. You can then harvest the SP each month to cover most of the PLEX cost to keep it running indefinitely - you have effectively a free alt and can do this as many times as you would like. Whether that is good or not I pass no judgement. This devblog and this thread is to explore this proposal which is what I am doing: this change dramatically lowers the cost of fixed SP alts. Make of that what you will. The point is that they can't just alt themselves a PLEX's worth of injectors. That was never my point. My point is that you've made Eve effectively free-to-play for accounts that don't care about accumulating skill points. That will have profound effects on the economy as everyone can now run as many mining (or PI or industry) alts as they want for a fraction of a PLEX each. It will also enable each ganker to run as many ganking alts as their hardware can handle for practically no additional cost. That is a massive change over the status quo. Sure, in theory you could do something similar now using the character bazaar and an extra slot on the account, but that requires months or years of planning and the ability to front the significant PLEX cost. Now, any Tom, ****, or Harry can run as many alts as they want and just harvest the SP to pay most of the cost of the next month's PLEX month. This will impact the economy and provide significant upwards pressure on PLEX prices.
No, this notion of "free to play" in Eve is not like in other games. Somebody, somewhere at sometime had to buy the PLEX a player uses to play for "free" (and FFS, how can so many people who are pretty good at understanding opportunity cost, at least when it comes mining fail so hard when it comes to grinding for ISK to PLEX an account...do you all put so little value on your leisure time?). It is more accurate to say,
"I don't pay money for my sub, I give away a good chunk of my leisure time to get the ISK that I then transfer to another player who used his RL money to get a PLEX to 'buy' my ISK probably because he hates grinding or doesn't have as much leisure time or values it more than I do."
If you want to shorten that down the "I play for free" fine, but not really.
FFS.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
133
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:50:03 -
[2614] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:create an awesome toon, play for a few months ..... get bored what next As opposed to "Start a skill plan for a toon of your choice, play for a few weeks, get bored what('s) next?"
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3533
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:52:14 -
[2615] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:If you strip away all the people saying about the history, legacy the original concepts blah blah
If you strip away all the fan boys saying its good great, not a problem blah blah
get rid of the alternative skill remaps
Skill points > Money not a 1 off payement but done so that each packet costs
A sub game that is already full of F2P microtranactions now wants to inject a system where people who dont mind pumping in real cash to create elite toons being suggested, also underlying this is that the character bazaar for now is staying, what happens when the injection system is introduced and the CCP declares there no use for a bazaar because you can create the toon of your choice with transnural skill packs
create an awesome toon, play for a few months ..... get bored what next
The problem with this is that most of the people who can create elite characters....already have elite characters--i.e., older players.
Here is something I wrote on another board,
Consider the older player:
3 Accounts, with 3 free slots. Billions of ISK
He wants 3 afktar pilots he can park in anoms and let the ISK roll in. He could log in to the game, make 3 brand new characters and then endow each of them with enough ISK to go buy the requisite amount of SP. Result, 3 AFKtar pilots and he sees his monthly income of say 2 billion a month.
New character: 1 account, 2 slots paltry ISK.
His options, go shell out at least another $19.95 for a PLEX and maybe get up to 2.4 million SP. Yet another $19.95 and now he is at 4.4 million SP. And not knowing the game as well as the older player he probably did not allocate those skills that well. Maybe in spaceship command he has just enough to get into a BS. And for gunnery he skipped all the support skills. Then he runs into an older player in a svipul and is eaten alive. He logs off pissed as **** because his big ship just died to a little ship! WTF. And WTF, he spent nearly $55 ******* dollars. **** Eve, **** CCP, and what the **** is on television.
Anyone who thinks that newer players will be using this as much or more than an older player...I think they are sadly mistaken.
A new player might buy 1 may 2 SP packets after selling a PLEX in game, but my guess that is about it.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dave stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:56:06 -
[2616] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:If you strip away all the people saying about the history, legacy the original concepts blah blah
If you strip away all the fan boys saying its good great, not a problem blah blah
get rid of the alternative skill remaps
Skill points > Money not a 1 off payement but done so that each packet costs
A sub game that is already full of F2P microtranactions now wants to inject a system where people who dont mind pumping in real cash to create elite toons being suggested, also underlying this is that the character bazaar for now is staying, what happens when the injection system is introduced and the CCP declares there no use for a bazaar because you can create the toon of your choice with transnural skill packs
create an awesome toon, play for a few months ..... get bored what next The problem with this is that most of the people who can create elite characters....already have elite characters--i.e., older players. Here is something I wrote on another board, Consider the older player: 3 Accounts, with 3 free slots. Billions of ISK He wants 3 afktar pilots he can park in anoms and let the ISK roll in. He could log in to the game, make 3 brand new characters and then endow each of them with enough ISK to go buy the requisite amount of SP. Result, 3 AFKtar pilots and he sees his monthly income of say 2 billion a month. New player: 1 account, 2 slots paltry ISK. His options, go shell out at least another $19.95 for a PLEX and maybe get up to 2.4 million SP. Yet another $19.95 and now he is at 4.4 million SP. And not knowing the game as well as the older player he probably did not allocate those skills that well. Maybe in spaceship command he has just enough to get into a BS. And for gunnery he skipped all the support skills. Then he runs into an older player in a svipul and is eaten alive. He logs off pissed as **** because his big ship just died to a little ship! WTF. And WTF, he spent nearly $55 ******* dollars. **** Eve, **** CCP, and what the **** is on television. Anyone who thinks that newer players will be using this as much or more than an older player...I think they are sadly mistaken. A new player might buy 1 may 2 SP packets after selling a PLEX in game, but my guess that is about it.
you missed option none of the above; scam the hell out of an idiot and blow it all on hookers, blow, and SP. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1808
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:58:26 -
[2617] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:No, this notion of "free to play" in Eve is not like in other games. Somebody, somewhere at sometime had to buy the PLEX a player uses to play for "free" (and FFS, how can so many people who are pretty good at understanding opportunity cost, at least when it comes mining fail so hard when it comes to grinding for ISK to PLEX an account...do you all put so little value on your leisure time?). It is more accurate to say,
"I don't pay money for my sub, I give away a good chunk of my leisure time to get the ISK that I then transfer to another player who used his RL money to get a PLEX to 'buy' my ISK probably because he hates grinding or doesn't have as much leisure time or values it more than I do."
If you want to shorten that down the "I play for free" fine, but not really.
FFS.
You don't get it. Of course someone is paying - the person who is buying all your SP. But you are getting the use of those alts you are farming the SP from. You are uncoupling the ability to run extra accounts from the SP they give. This will cause many more accounts to be created and used as ganking/PI/industry alts which will significantly impact the economy.
Right now if I want an alt to do industry it is 1 PLEX. With this change alts will cost a fraction of a PLEX as most of the cost will be paid by the player buying the SP.
Sheesh.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:58:31 -
[2618] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:create an awesome toon, play for a few months ..... get bored what next As opposed to "Start a skill plan for a toon of your choice, play for a few weeks, get bored what('s) next?"
Your paying your sub for that and there are alot more things to keep you happy now as opposed to 9+ years ago, granted if you have been in game a certain length of time the best option is to max the queue and leave it for a month or so but its not costing you anything over your subs. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9267
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:59:08 -
[2619] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote: That is a massive change over the status quo. Sure, in theory you could do something similar now using the character bazaar and an extra slot on the account, but that requires months or years of planning and the ability to front the significant PLEX cost.
To be fair, those months and years of planning have already been going on for months and years. You can buy a fleet of whatever specialized pilots you want right now thanks to people like me that have been creating specialized characters for sale since forever. They will have no standings, no corp history and no reputation. And be a fraction of the price of making them using the proposed system.
Either way the important factor is time over return. It will always be a better return to sell a character made with the current method than banging out a character at double or triple the price from packets. SP trading is just not going to be the big game breaker all the sky-is-falling crowd think it is. It's set up that way.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3534
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 18:59:13 -
[2620] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:If you strip away all the people saying about the history, legacy the original concepts blah blah
If you strip away all the fan boys saying its good great, not a problem blah blah
get rid of the alternative skill remaps
Skill points > Money not a 1 off payement but done so that each packet costs
A sub game that is already full of F2P microtranactions now wants to inject a system where people who dont mind pumping in real cash to create elite toons being suggested, also underlying this is that the character bazaar for now is staying, what happens when the injection system is introduced and the CCP declares there no use for a bazaar because you can create the toon of your choice with transnural skill packs
create an awesome toon, play for a few months ..... get bored what next The problem with this is that most of the people who can create elite characters....already have elite characters--i.e., older players. Here is something I wrote on another board, Consider the older player: 3 Accounts, with 3 free slots. Billions of ISK He wants 3 afktar pilots he can park in anoms and let the ISK roll in. He could log in to the game, make 3 brand new characters and then endow each of them with enough ISK to go buy the requisite amount of SP. Result, 3 AFKtar pilots and he sees his monthly income of say 2 billion a month. New player: 1 account, 2 slots paltry ISK. His options, go shell out at least another $19.95 for a PLEX and maybe get up to 2.4 million SP. Yet another $19.95 and now he is at 4.4 million SP. And not knowing the game as well as the older player he probably did not allocate those skills that well. Maybe in spaceship command he has just enough to get into a BS. And for gunnery he skipped all the support skills. Then he runs into an older player in a svipul and is eaten alive. He logs off pissed as **** because his big ship just died to a little ship! WTF. And WTF, he spent nearly $55 ******* dollars. **** Eve, **** CCP, and what the **** is on television. Anyone who thinks that newer players will be using this as much or more than an older player...I think they are sadly mistaken. A new player might buy 1 may 2 SP packets after selling a PLEX in game, but my guess that is about it. you missed option none of the above; scam the hell out of an idiot and blow it all on hookers, blow, and SP.
Pretty sure most scammers, corp thiefs, etc. are older players too....
I don't see this helping retention much...tbqh. But maybe I'm wrong...maybe we'll start trending back up and be at around 48,000 players on average logged in vs. 24,000.
But I doubt it.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
|
BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
477
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:02:11 -
[2621] - Quote
I remember when they introduced the 24 hour skill queue. People went ballistic, calling it the end of EVE. Then, they went to an unlimited skill queue...and no one said anything. My point is...this new idea...whatever... |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:02:46 -
[2622] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:If you strip away all the people saying about the history, legacy the original concepts blah blah
If you strip away all the fan boys saying its good great, not a problem blah blah
get rid of the alternative skill remaps
Skill points > Money not a 1 off payement but done so that each packet costs
A sub game that is already full of F2P microtranactions now wants to inject a system where people who dont mind pumping in real cash to create elite toons being suggested, also underlying this is that the character bazaar for now is staying, what happens when the injection system is introduced and the CCP declares there no use for a bazaar because you can create the toon of your choice with transnural skill packs
create an awesome toon, play for a few months ..... get bored what next The problem with this is that most of the people who can create elite characters....already have elite characters--i.e., older players. Here is something I wrote on another board, Consider the older player: 3 Accounts, with 3 free slots. Billions of ISK He wants 3 afktar pilots he can park in anoms and let the ISK roll in. He could log in to the game, make 3 brand new characters and then endow each of them with enough ISK to go buy the requisite amount of SP. Result, 3 AFKtar pilots and he sees his monthly income of say 2 billion a month. New player: 1 account, 2 slots paltry ISK. His options, go shell out at least another $19.95 for a PLEX and maybe get up to 2.4 million SP. Yet another $19.95 and now he is at 4.4 million SP. And not knowing the game as well as the older player he probably did not allocate those skills that well. Maybe in spaceship command he has just enough to get into a BS. And for gunnery he skipped all the support skills. Then he runs into an older player in a svipul and is eaten alive. He logs off pissed as **** because his big ship just died to a little ship! WTF. And WTF, he spent nearly $55 ******* dollars. **** Eve, **** CCP, and what the **** is on television. Anyone who thinks that newer players will be using this as much or more than an older player...I think they are sadly mistaken. A new player might buy 1 may 2 SP packets after selling a PLEX in game, but my guess that is about it. This seems to vastly underestimate how much is between the NPE-video window for sub retention and something like 30M SP, for really experiencing the game.. the idea being that much more experienced characters can still benefit.
It's less than obvious what the criticism is -- with almost this whole thread. New players won't benefit? Let's discuss removing SP.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:05:24 -
[2623] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Pretty sure most scammers, corp thiefs, etc. are older players too....
I don't see this helping retention much...tbqh. But maybe I'm wrong...maybe we'll start trending back up and be at around 48,000 players on average logged in vs. 24,000.
But I doubt it.
maybe. laz telraven on the meta show on 30/9/15 said he purchased a new character within like a week. gorski, the csm member, said on Crossing Zebras in his article about this that not long after staring he purchased a character...
it's not just old players that purchases high SP characters, it's players that are new to the game as well.
laz even goes as far as to say "100m sp is low".
https://youtu.be/LQAnaMTptgA?t=39m23s source. (might have to rewind it a bit)
doesn't really matter if it helps retention or not - improving retention has never been stated to be the purpose of this change. |
Karin Yang
Eye Of Insight SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:05:41 -
[2624] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Grandpa Nickles wrote:I think we need to focus on the problem of new characters and giving new characters a fair go with the game. Since this proposed solution is focused in this direction.
The honest truth of it is that THIS GAME is absolutely harsh and unforgiving to new players. If we want EVE to grow we need to be a little more forgiving and understanding and help new players along so they can get enjoyment out of this game before they give up on it.
I know there are nay sayers and long time players I'm looking at you, YES I'm also worried about EVE dying, but right now I'm more concerned with a diminishing player base especially with a few alternate titles coming out, something needs to be done.
I have wasted SP's because when I was a new player I didn't know what the game offered or what skills were needed to do what... I thought certificates were achievements... implementing ISIS and the new mastery were awesome and helped to address these issues but more is needed to guide new players towards spending SP's on what they ACTUALLY do in EVE and not what they think they'll like to do... in a few of months, and instead of enjoy their hard trained SP's just regret the time and $'s they just spent on the game.
During my time with EVE I've often found myself leaving it repeatedly. This because at the start I got bored with the few things my character was good at doing, so I only experienced a small part of the game. We've all experienced that at the start, and we all hated it, and it causes EVE to lose players because YES there is consequence, but I need to enjoy this game, not feel like I've ruined my character and lost at EVE. Why put people through something you yourself hated going through?
Instead of bad mouthing the idea and complaining and whining, how about you guys use your brains and give some of your own ideas how we can try and get more players into EVE, and more importantly keep the new starters from losing interest.
I'm not sure if tradeable SP packets is the answer, personally I've prefer a SP resculpture certificate, which I can use to reassign my skillpoints. That way I keep all my own skillpoints (no transferring between characters) get rid of skills relating to things I'm NOT DOING, and put them into things I AM DOING. The main problem with how new players see EVE is that we players all know this, but CCP do not seem to. They hide behind weak circumstantial evidence from low significant numbers for the conclusions they draw. One roll in Twitch, YouTube, Reddit and other social media that is not this forum and you see how people who tried EVE actually felt about it. There is no point in pointing that out, because if someone where to put some thought in all the "New Player Perception" to change it, it would have been done already. The whole thing is, this is a bad idea, mostly for the new players. They will inherit the New Eden trashed by it, they will be cash cows for vets with SP to sell, and while they farm ISK for the already rich people, the situation for the new players wont really enhance at all. There wont be a better experience for new players, there wont be a worse experience for new players, the actual problem is that there wont be any experience for new players. The argument that you need to replace a bad idea with a good one to criticize it has no value. It is just a bad idea, period. There is nothing better to do instead, the better idea is to leave it as it is.
It is true that this change does not create more experience for new player and more things need to be done. But I don't think it does no good for new player. Eve is only a game for a small part of people. For those who want to play pay2win games, they will find they are wrong and leave anyway, so don't bother to keep them. For those who buy SP and unlock features but finally find that its not a game for them, they will leave anyway. For those who may finally find something enjoyable finally, is eve able to catch them? Not really. Because they quit before they find it is interesting, and because they don't want to wait months to unlock it. They may be good PvPer, Industries, Trader, but they will never know that.
It won't change much for player who already decide to stay. But if this change can make only a small group of players find sth they like to do before they quit, it is worthy. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3534
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:10:14 -
[2625] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:No, this notion of "free to play" in Eve is not like in other games. Somebody, somewhere at sometime had to buy the PLEX a player uses to play for "free" (and FFS, how can so many people who are pretty good at understanding opportunity cost, at least when it comes mining fail so hard when it comes to grinding for ISK to PLEX an account...do you all put so little value on your leisure time?). It is more accurate to say,
"I don't pay money for my sub, I give away a good chunk of my leisure time to get the ISK that I then transfer to another player who used his RL money to get a PLEX to 'buy' my ISK probably because he hates grinding or doesn't have as much leisure time or values it more than I do."
If you want to shorten that down the "I play for free" fine, but not really.
FFS.
You don't get it. Of course someone is paying - the person who is buying all your SP. But you are getting the use of those alts you are farming the SP from. You are uncoupling the ability to run extra accounts from the SP they give. This will cause many more accounts to be created and used as ganking/PI/industry alts which will significantly impact the economy. Right now if I want an alt to do industry it is 1 PLEX. With this change alts will cost a fraction of a PLEX as most of the cost will be paid by the player buying the SP. Sheesh.
So like what, create an account with 3 PI characters where one is perpetually training a high SP (i.e. high rank skill) skill that you constantly are draining every time you get that extra 500,000 SP?
Okay, yeah I see where you are going with this.
Another reason not to go with this proposal. It is adding a largely passive form of income to the game which CCP has always indicated is less than desired.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:12:47 -
[2626] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Another reason not to go with this proposal. It is adding a largely passive form of income to the game which CCP has always indicated is less than desired.
it's no different to dedicating a whole character slot to training a character then selling it on the bazaar and using the isk of the sold character to offset the plex cost.
the vast majority of the "problems" with this proposal already exist - because the character bazaar is a thing. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3534
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:15:32 -
[2627] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Pretty sure most scammers, corp thiefs, etc. are older players too....
I don't see this helping retention much...tbqh. But maybe I'm wrong...maybe we'll start trending back up and be at around 48,000 players on average logged in vs. 24,000.
But I doubt it.
maybe. laz telraven on the meta show on 30/9/15 said he purchased a new character within like a week. gorski, the csm member, said on Crossing Zebras in his article about this that not long after staring he purchased a character... it's not just old players that purchases high SP characters, it's players that are new to the game as well. laz even goes as far as to say "100m sp is low". https://youtu.be/LQAnaMTptgA?t=39m23s source. (might have to rewind it a bit) doesn't really matter if it helps retention or not - improving retention has never been stated to be the purpose of this change.
Yeah I too like to reason from a single data point. It's awesome because you can explain ANYTHING with it.
And if it hurts retention? A change that hurts retention when the average number of players is below what it was 1, 2, even 3 years ago....is ******* stupid.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1809
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:16:57 -
[2628] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Black Pedro wrote: That is a massive change over the status quo. Sure, in theory you could do something similar now using the character bazaar and an extra slot on the account, but that requires months or years of planning and the ability to front the significant PLEX cost.
To be fair, those months and years of planning have already been going on for months and years. You can buy a fleet of whatever specialized pilots you want right now thanks to people like me that have been creating specialized characters for sale since forever. They will have no standings, no corp history and no reputation. And be a fraction of the price of making them using the proposed system. Either way the important factor is time over return. It will always be a better return to sell a character made with the current method than banging out a character at double or triple the price from packets. SP trading is just not going to be the big game breaker all the sky-is-falling crowd think it is. It's set up that way. Mr Epeen I honestly am not so concerned about trading SP - as you say this has been going on for years. The concern I am raising is the proliferation of alts needed to supply these SP packets. There will a dramatic increase in alts to supply that SP, and a corresponding increase in PLEX prices to fund them. These SP packets have greater utility than a pre-made character on the bazaar and thus are going to be in more demand (depending on what price CCP sets for the extractor I guess). In addition, economic forces are going to mean these SP-farmed alts will be used by gankers and industrialists for cheap multiboxing accounts further distorting the economy and game play of Eve.
It's clearly not my call, and I will be the first in line make a couple additional gank alts which I can fund almost completely by selling off the SP, but it should be made clear that this will impact the overall economy in ways that the character bazaar has not. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25751
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:17:43 -
[2629] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:But on a more serious not if CCP takes their game design decisions based upon redit feedback then we would be playing a wow clone before you know it.
I guess you haven't been paying attention.
https://twitter.com/ccp_fozzie/status/654724219184386049
And I wish I could shout you out
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3534
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:18:00 -
[2630] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Another reason not to go with this proposal. It is adding a largely passive form of income to the game which CCP has always indicated is less than desired. it's no different to dedicating a whole character slot to training a character then selling it on the bazaar and using the isk of the sold character to offset the plex cost. the vast majority of the "problems" with this proposal already exist - because the character bazaar is a thing.
So, you notice a problem...so lets double down on it? Seriously? Starting to sound like being stuck on stupid.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
|
tainted demon
Danger Gnomes Vendetta Mercenary Group
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:18:21 -
[2631] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:tainted demon wrote:Dave Stark wrote:tainted demon wrote:I don't understand the point of this new change other than to **** off your entire player base.
why not make this so i can re distribute my SP or some of it 1 time a year like remapping attributes this way if you make a ship i have a lot of SP in useless (CAPS) i can put that SP into other skills and ships that fit the meta. Why would i have to pay CCP for SP when i already pay a subscription for the SP I'm transferring (if I'm moving SP about between my own accounts?)
The 1 thing that keeps me in this game is I have alot of TIME invested. 6 months for a sleipnir is a long time to wait to fly 1 ship ect. what is the point of wasting all that time if i can just buy 20mil SP and get it over night. EVE will loose the 1 thing it has holding it's older players the TIME we have all spent training for what we want
Speaking of older players if this is going to go ahead can you explain the reason why old players with more SP are being punished for supporting your game for the many years they have?
WILL CCP's NEXT CHANGE MAKE PLEX'S ADD LESS GAME TIME FOR OLDER PLAYERS? NEW PLAYERS GET 30 DAYS OLD PLAYERS GET 10 DAYS
seems to me that is where we are going these days because as we've gone through in the last like 5 pages - the ultimate outcome of "remapping my own sp" ends up with the same situation as just buying and selling SP via the proposal. in both situations you end up with a character with the allocated exactly as you want it. you can already buy 20m sp over night, it's called the character bazaar. if you read the devblog they explain exactly why there's a diminishing returns system. honestly, i feel like people need to actually read the devblog before posting. no i do understand i can buy a 100mil sp toon if i wanted too but then im stuck with whatever skills were trained i cant just train 30 skills to lvl 5 in 2 mins then go fight someone who took 2-3 years to get there. that is a big difference that again only applies to young players not old ones and makes all the time i have invested into my younger alts a complete waste of time so you buy one with the skills trained that you want. there's more than 1 character on the bazaar. no, it isn't a big difference. whether you purchase the character wholesale or you hatched one this morning and juiced it up on transneural packets is irrelevant. you're still taking a 100m sp pilot to a fight. there's no character age limit to buying characters on the bazaar that i know of, and any character will be able to inject packets. so i have no idea what you're talking about with "younger alts being a waste of time".
you seem to be missing the point so let me explain
There is no age limit on bazzar but there is in this the more SP your character has the less SP you will gain from buying SP this = young players can only grow to a point untill they also suffer for having too much SP in their head (that alone makes no sense when i can already buy a new character with more SP.) - read the dev blog it's all there
The fact we have all invested money and TIME into our accounts is what keeps us coming back we are invested. so a change that is great for new players but limits older players like this is stupid if you're going to change anything it make it fair for all!
to the part about me wasting time why have i wasted 7 months dual training my alts up to be useful when i can wait for this change and get all my lower SP toons up to 50mil over night = I should stop buying plex and cancel some subs and save some money for this new feature
goes back to what I'm talking about if players don't need to invest TIME in eve, the game looses what sets it apart from other games also older player who have a lot invested feel hung out to dry.
still with me? |
Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:20:15 -
[2632] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:And if it hurts retention?
if skipping arbitrary wait times for new players to actually do things in eve hurts retention - then nothing will improve it.
as for single data points, ******* lol - watch the show; they quite clearly state that most of the high level players in null have at some point purchased a character at some point.
buying and selling SP isn't new and already exists. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3534
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:20:49 -
[2633] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Black Pedro wrote: That is a massive change over the status quo. Sure, in theory you could do something similar now using the character bazaar and an extra slot on the account, but that requires months or years of planning and the ability to front the significant PLEX cost.
To be fair, those months and years of planning have already been going on for months and years. You can buy a fleet of whatever specialized pilots you want right now thanks to people like me that have been creating specialized characters for sale since forever. They will have no standings, no corp history and no reputation. And be a fraction of the price of making them using the proposed system. Either way the important factor is time over return. It will always be a better return to sell a character made with the current method than banging out a character at double or triple the price from packets. SP trading is just not going to be the big game breaker all the sky-is-falling crowd think it is. It's set up that way. Mr Epeen I honestly am not so concerned about trading SP - as you say this has been going on for years. The concern I am raising is the proliferation of alts needed to supply these SP packets. There will a dramatic increase in alts to supply that SP, and a corresponding increase in PLEX prices to fund them. These SP packets have greater utility than a pre-made character on the bazaar and thus are going to be in more demand (depending on what price CCP sets for the extractor I guess). In addition, economic forces are going to mean these SP-farmed alts will be used by gankers and industrialists for cheap multiboxing accounts further distorting the economy and game play of Eve. It's clearly not my call, and I will be the first in line make a couple additional gank alts which I can fund almost completely by selling off the SP, but it should be made clear that this will impact the overall economy in ways that the character bazaar has not.
And almost surely in ways that are hard to predict. Economies are complex dynamic systems. Anyone who thinks they can predict the outcomes of such a system with a high degree of certainty is either an idiot or a person with and agenda.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:22:35 -
[2634] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Another reason not to go with this proposal. It is adding a largely passive form of income to the game which CCP has always indicated is less than desired. it's no different to dedicating a whole character slot to training a character then selling it on the bazaar and using the isk of the sold character to offset the plex cost. the vast majority of the "problems" with this proposal already exist - because the character bazaar is a thing. So, you notice a problem...so lets double down on it? Seriously? Starting to sound like being stuck on stupid.
double down on what? you're pretending we're doubling something. we're not. passive income has always been there in the very same format - selling SP.
pretending it's a problem now is just laughable. |
Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:24:33 -
[2635] - Quote
tainted demon wrote:why have i wasted 7 months dual training my alts up to be useful
because you weren't smart enough to just buy new characters from the bazaar? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3534
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:24:41 -
[2636] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:And if it hurts retention? if skipping arbitrary wait times for new players to actually do things in eve hurts retention - then nothing will improve it. as for single data points, ******* lol - watch the show; they quite clearly state that most of the high level players in null have at some point purchased a character at some point. buying and selling SP isn't new and already exists.
Yeah, new players are going to use this extensively and milk and honey for all. Sorry, not buying it. I do not believe that all the new players are going to be buying PLEX to speed up their training times. Some will, but my guess it is a small fraction.
As for your "additional" data, were they all a week old at the time? If you don't know, then more bullcrap straws. Go find out.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
178
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:24:52 -
[2637] - Quote
It is amazing how determinism get people to absurds that seem logic.
If you strip away the history of EVE, reason for the views the veterans have. If you strip away the fan boys, the people who like eve because they are enthusiastic.
Again, if you strip away everything that doesnt contradict your view, then you are right.
That is amazing how someone can think of it as being a valid point. Well, entire political campaigns in the Caldari States of Lonetrek were built upon, so I dont expect some people to understand how bogus it is.
So ok, lets try: If I strip all the water, cool-aid is actually solid ! (mind blown, ha !)
People play games not only because they like the game, but because there is other people playing.
According to statistics, lack of players in a MMO shows twice as much as content low quality and counterproductive control combined as reasons people leave MMOs. So yeah, the legacy of players and what makes them stay is very important for gathering new players. Trade the satisfaction of those already playing to try get new players is the one single worse move every mmo has made right before their fall.
Lost Hope also figures higher in informed quit list than long learning curve. It is barely the last thing in all the lists people quitting because it takes too long to get to the cap level. And at the present, people are even fed up with games you join today and get cap level tomorrow. The worse problem in this regard is not the length of the process, but the meaning of the pursuit.
To fix the problem of skills, giving skills is just accelerating the real issue, which is the meaning of training the skills. Again, it is not because of tradition, but because of logic, in old times, it was clear the impression that waiting long to sit in a battleship was oh so cool. That made people want to wait. The mistake was not keep the time to get to battleships, but "balance" under the influence of so called "elite pvpers", and make the time you wait to proper fly a battleship get you a ship that is little more than a advanced cruiser that takes the same time to proper fly it.
Even science says that the wait for the reward gives more pleasure to the brain than the reward itself, provided that the reward matches the wait. What upsets people is the null gain. It wont solve the problem to get people in a Battleship in no time, if piloting it is still little more than just single digit DPS increase over a lesser number of classes.
People will gladly wait if those already there give the perception that it is worth it.
People will still quit, if they quickly can see for themselves that even the short wait gives them little to nothing.
Better investment would be to make better placement of the different classes of ship reflecting the time it takes to fly them, rather than giving it all and balancing for "anyone can fly this in no time" scenario.
I got to pilot capitals when fly a capital was "oh so epic". The wait and the expectation is better than today when if you say "I can fly a capital" in local, someone will answer "Cool, who doesnt ?".
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3534
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:26:55 -
[2638] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Another reason not to go with this proposal. It is adding a largely passive form of income to the game which CCP has always indicated is less than desired. it's no different to dedicating a whole character slot to training a character then selling it on the bazaar and using the isk of the sold character to offset the plex cost. the vast majority of the "problems" with this proposal already exist - because the character bazaar is a thing. So, you notice a problem...so lets double down on it? Seriously? Starting to sound like being stuck on stupid. double down on what? you're pretending we're doubling something. we're not. passive income has always been there in the very same format - selling SP. pretending it's a problem now is just laughable.
Where did I pretend it is just now a problem? I have noted that CCP is not in favor of sources of passive income and have done things in the past to try and remove them or shift them over to being more active income streams.
You point out that the character bazaar is a form of passive income. Okay, fine. Now we are going to not only keep that source of passive income we are going to expand on it.
In effect, doubling down on something that is largely a form of passive income.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:29:18 -
[2639] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:And if it hurts retention? if skipping arbitrary wait times for new players to actually do things in eve hurts retention - then nothing will improve it. as for single data points, ******* lol - watch the show; they quite clearly state that most of the high level players in null have at some point purchased a character at some point. buying and selling SP isn't new and already exists. Yeah, new players are going to use this extensively and milk and honey for all. Sorry, not buying it. I do not believe that all the new players are going to be buying PLEX to speed up their training times. Some will, but my guess it is a small fraction. As for your "additional" data, were they all a week old at the time? If you don't know, then more bullcrap straws. Go find out. There's no reason to make the game out as if it's so interesting at low SP. If there's a method of progression in-game, how is that not them benefiting? Whether they capitalize on their options or quit is up to the game to seem interesting at that level.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
106
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:30:04 -
[2640] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: New player: 1 account, 2 slots paltry ISK.
His options, go shell out at least another $19.95 for a PLEX and maybe get up to 2.4 million SP. Yet another $19.95 and now he is at 4.4 million SP. And not knowing the game as well as the older player he probably did not allocate those skills that well. Maybe in spaceship command he has just enough to get into a BS. And for gunnery he skipped all the support skills. Then he runs into an older player in a svipul and is eaten alive. He logs off pissed as **** because his big ship just died to a little ship! WTF. And WTF, he spent nearly $55 ******* dollars. **** Eve, **** CCP, and what the **** is on television.
Anyone who thinks that newer players will be using this as much or more than an older player...I think they are sadly mistaken.
A new player might buy 1 may 2 SP packets after selling a PLEX in game, but my guess that is about it.
And that new player will be seeing his peers buy SP. He will see them more efficient at missions. More efficient at exploration. More efficient at mining. Whatever path he chooses there will very likely be players around of similar age but more efficient... because they paid. So maybe he will buy few packs, simply to not feel left behind by what supposed to be his peers. But ultimately he will realize that unless he comes to terms with normal skilling his choices are: sell an arm or quit. New player experience will go south. But perhaps CCP assume that at this point growth in new subscriptions is not on the table. |
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Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:30:25 -
[2641] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Another reason not to go with this proposal. It is adding a largely passive form of income to the game which CCP has always indicated is less than desired. it's no different to dedicating a whole character slot to training a character then selling it on the bazaar and using the isk of the sold character to offset the plex cost. the vast majority of the "problems" with this proposal already exist - because the character bazaar is a thing. So, you notice a problem...so lets double down on it? Seriously? Starting to sound like being stuck on stupid. double down on what? you're pretending we're doubling something. we're not. passive income has always been there in the very same format - selling SP. pretending it's a problem now is just laughable. Where did I pretend it is just now a problem? I have noted that CCP is not in favor of sources of passive income and have done things in the past to try and remove them or shift them over to being more active income streams. You point out that the character bazaar is a form of passive income. Okay, fine. Now we are going to not only keep that source of passive income we are going to expand on it. In effect, doubling down on something that is largely a form of passive income.
it's not a problem, though. |
Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:31:11 -
[2642] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:And if it hurts retention? if skipping arbitrary wait times for new players to actually do things in eve hurts retention - then nothing will improve it. as for single data points, ******* lol - watch the show; they quite clearly state that most of the high level players in null have at some point purchased a character at some point. buying and selling SP isn't new and already exists. Yeah, new players are going to use this extensively and milk and honey for all. Sorry, not buying it. I do not believe that all the new players are going to be buying PLEX to speed up their training times. Some will, but my guess it is a small fraction. As for your "additional" data, were they all a week old at the time? If you don't know, then more bullcrap straws. Go find out.
does it matter how old they all were? we already know new players do it. and we know they're encouraged to do it. |
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
363
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:33:42 -
[2643] - Quote
Time for another MASS-PROTEST, after Incarna greed is good debalce, CCP Games still has not learned the lesson
source: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=536826276
Cya you in Amarr, on the Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy station undock, shooting the monument !
Regards, a Freelancer
PS: Time to make stand against this Bullshit all over again, like we did in 2011 and made the Company change policy. https://ardentdefense.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/eve-jita-mass-protest/
The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
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Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:36:12 -
[2644] - Quote
Delegate wrote:And that new player will be seeing his peers buy SP. He will see them more efficient at missions. More efficient at exploration. More efficient at mining. Whatever path he chooses there will very likely be players around of similar age but more efficient... because they paid. So maybe he will buy few packs, simply to not feel left behind by what supposed to be his peers. But ultimately he will realize that unless he comes to terms with normal skilling his choices are: sell an arm or quit. New player experience will go south. But perhaps CCP assumes that at this point growth in new subscriptions is not on the table.
unlike now where he sees them buy a character, and the same thing happens. what you're pointing out, yet again, isn't a new problem that will magically appear because of this new system. it already exists. |
Chrome Veinss
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:45:37 -
[2645] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Dror wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Dror wrote:Black Pedro wrote:No, the Buddy Invite program is still in full effect. You get either 30-days game time or a PLEX for having a buddy (or your new ganker alt accout) subscribe, even if they use a PLEX to do so. It only supplies PLEX through actual payment. Whatever. It supplies 30 days of gameplay. Which is functionally equivalent to a PLEX for those that pay with PLEX, and of equal value to a month's gametime for those who pay by subscription. The point is that using the Buddy Program you can get yourself an alt with 60-day training for no extra cost (effectively free). That is enough for a near max DPS ganking alt, a pretty decent PI alt, an effective mining alt or a useful industry alt. You can then harvest the SP each month to cover most of the PLEX cost to keep it running indefinitely - you have effectively a free alt and can do this as many times as you would like. Whether that is good or not I pass no judgement. This devblog and this thread is to explore this proposal which is what I am doing: this change dramatically lowers the cost of fixed SP alts. Make of that what you will. The point is that they can't just alt themselves a PLEX's worth of injectors. That was never my point. My point is that you've made Eve effectively free-to-play for accounts that don't care about accumulating skill points. That will have profound effects on the economy as everyone can now run as many mining (or PI or industry) alts as they want for a fraction of a PLEX each. It will also enable each ganker to run as many ganking alts as their hardware can handle for practically no additional cost. That is a massive change over the status quo. Sure, in theory you could do something similar now using the character bazaar and an extra slot on the account, but that requires months or years of planning and the ability to front the significant PLEX cost. Now, any Tom, ****, or Harry can run as many alts as they want and just harvest the SP to pay most of the cost of the next month's PLEX cost. This will impact the economy and provide significant upwards pressure on PLEX prices.
Most people dont have or want alts and pay for their game time with a single subscription. I'll be sad if PLEX prices keep increasing and it becomes nothing but a toy for the richest and nerdiest to get more and more alts. But ultimately I dont see the problem with people getting alts per se. I hated all the hassle that a single alt account involved and unsubbed it. If other people find it somehow fun to manage 10 alt accounts then.... whatever.
Dont get me wrong there IS a problem. A huge problem. But it has more to do with gameplay and core mechanics than with PLEX prices, alts, sp or any other specific part of the game. The problem is that a lot of Eve's gameplay is so mindless, trite and boring that a single person *can* manage 3, 5 or even 10 clients at the same time. Every single Eve activity should be engaging to the point that it demands 100% of a human's attention, even mining. CCP could create these sp packets while also improving the gameplay in all areas to the point where a single person can no longer run 10 reaction farms or multibox an incursion fleet and the result would be a net decrease in alts (and a net increase in fun). |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3534
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:46:25 -
[2646] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: New player: 1 account, 2 slots paltry ISK.
His options, go shell out at least another $19.95 for a PLEX and maybe get up to 2.4 million SP. Yet another $19.95 and now he is at 4.4 million SP. And not knowing the game as well as the older player he probably did not allocate those skills that well. Maybe in spaceship command he has just enough to get into a BS. And for gunnery he skipped all the support skills. Then he runs into an older player in a svipul and is eaten alive. He logs off pissed as **** because his big ship just died to a little ship! WTF. And WTF, he spent nearly $55 ******* dollars. **** Eve, **** CCP, and what the **** is on television.
Anyone who thinks that newer players will be using this as much or more than an older player...I think they are sadly mistaken.
A new player might buy 1 may 2 SP packets after selling a PLEX in game, but my guess that is about it.
And that new player will be seeing his peers buy SP. He will see them more efficient at missions. More efficient at exploration. More efficient at mining. Whatever path he chooses there will very likely be players around of similar age but more efficient... because they paid. So maybe he will buy few packs, just to not feel left behind by what supposed to be his peers. But ultimately he will realize that unless he comes to terms with normal skilling his choices are: sell an arm or quit. New player experience will go south. But perhaps CCP assume that at this point growth in new subscriptions is not on the table.
Yes, that is what I said. He might buy 1 or 2 packets. Maybe a third down the road a bit to get him to 5 million SP a bit sooner. After that, the decreasing returns will really make him (the average new player) thing twice.
And keep in mind I'm talking about the average new player. Not the guy who is fortunate to have a **** ton of RL cash and can go out and buy 100 SP packets via PLEX. So this is what the average, IMO, will do. And here is something about averages...they split the distribution in...wait....wait...half! So half the players would be buying less SP than our average dude here. Depending on the skewness of the distribution alot of players might not buy any all.
Yes, I have no data for this...but then again neither does anyone else who is saying, "Don't worrry, everything will be awesome." And I'm not saying it will be horrible, just that there is a chance it could be.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3534
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:47:36 -
[2647] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:And if it hurts retention? if skipping arbitrary wait times for new players to actually do things in eve hurts retention - then nothing will improve it. as for single data points, ******* lol - watch the show; they quite clearly state that most of the high level players in null have at some point purchased a character at some point. buying and selling SP isn't new and already exists. Yeah, new players are going to use this extensively and milk and honey for all. Sorry, not buying it. I do not believe that all the new players are going to be buying PLEX to speed up their training times. Some will, but my guess it is a small fraction. As for your "additional" data, were they all a week old at the time? If you don't know, then more bullcrap straws. Go find out. does it matter how old they all were? we already know new players do it. and we know they're encouraged to do it.
No we know some do it. And we don't know when they did it or why, except for on case.
Basically, you got nothing here but assumptions piled on top of some limited data.
Impressive as a turd.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:49:44 -
[2648] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:And if it hurts retention? if skipping arbitrary wait times for new players to actually do things in eve hurts retention - then nothing will improve it. as for single data points, ******* lol - watch the show; they quite clearly state that most of the high level players in null have at some point purchased a character at some point. buying and selling SP isn't new and already exists. Yeah, new players are going to use this extensively and milk and honey for all. Sorry, not buying it. I do not believe that all the new players are going to be buying PLEX to speed up their training times. Some will, but my guess it is a small fraction. As for your "additional" data, were they all a week old at the time? If you don't know, then more bullcrap straws. Go find out. does it matter how old they all were? we already know new players do it. and we know they're encouraged to do it. No we know some do it. And we don't know when they did it or why, except for on case. Basically, you got nothing here but assumptions piled on top of some limited data. Impressive as a turd.
both of the cases i cited, clearly stated when they did it.
i have a fact; new players buy characters. new players buy sp. |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
179
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:50:10 -
[2649] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:And that new player will be seeing his peers buy SP. He will see them more efficient at missions. More efficient at exploration. More efficient at mining. Whatever path he chooses there will very likely be players around of similar age but more efficient... because they paid. So maybe he will buy few packs, simply to not feel left behind by what supposed to be his peers. But ultimately he will realize that unless he comes to terms with normal skilling his choices are: sell an arm or quit. New player experience will go south. But perhaps CCP assumes that at this point growth in new subscriptions is not on the table. unlike now where he sees them buy a character, and the same thing happens. what you're pointing out, yet again, isn't a new problem that will magically appear because of this new system. it already exists.
Equate bazaar to skill pill is plain wishful thinking.
No one will buy a char now, then buy another later, then another, maybe merge them all, and make a superhero.
The huge difference is that with skill pill it is not only buying it for XP that is exploitable. Self skill pill taking is a huge flaw.
You build a 10 pipeline skill queue by leveling alts with the sole intent to feed skills to one char. voil+á, you not only "bought a super char", this superchar is like you want, with the skills you want, and didnt cost you half of what it would from the Bazaar.
SKill Pill is bazaar on steroids. Bazaar is a bad idea, needed for a reason, skill pill is just too much.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3534
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:50:20 -
[2650] - Quote
Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:And if it hurts retention? if skipping arbitrary wait times for new players to actually do things in eve hurts retention - then nothing will improve it. as for single data points, ******* lol - watch the show; they quite clearly state that most of the high level players in null have at some point purchased a character at some point. buying and selling SP isn't new and already exists. Yeah, new players are going to use this extensively and milk and honey for all. Sorry, not buying it. I do not believe that all the new players are going to be buying PLEX to speed up their training times. Some will, but my guess it is a small fraction. As for your "additional" data, were they all a week old at the time? If you don't know, then more bullcrap straws. Go find out. There's no reason to make the game out as if it's so interesting at low SP. If there's a method of progression in-game, how is that not them benefiting? Whether they capitalize on their options or quit is up to the game to seem interesting at that level.
I didn't say it was not benefiting them though. I'm just saying I don't think that many will avail themselves to it and to the extent they do it will be somewhat limited.
But feel free to assume that all new players are going shell out $80+ on top of their subscription via this mechanism.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3534
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:52:44 -
[2651] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
both of the cases i cited, clearly stated when they did it.
i have a fact; new players buy characters. new players buy sp.
OMG you got 2 data points!!!!
OMG OMG OMG OMG.
Comeback when you have a random sample of players...say 1,000. Until then stop talking out of your butt.
Oh, and yeah it mattes how old they were, you were defending the position that Laz Telraven bought a character 1 week in game, implying that this is somewhat common.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:52:44 -
[2652] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:You build a 10 pipeline skill queue by leveling alts with the sole intent to feed skills to one char. voil+á, you not only "bought a super char", this superchar is like you want, with the skills you want, and didnt cost you half of what it would from the Bazaar.
no, it'll cost you significantly more to create a high SP character with packets than to buy it from the bazaar. |
Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
60
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:53:00 -
[2653] - Quote
http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1
Just a thing I wanted to leave here:
Dave Stark187 (7,1%) Querns128 (4,8%) Don ZOLA98 (3,7%) Teckos Pech96 (3,6%)
Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda. |
Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:54:52 -
[2654] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
does it matter how old they all were? we already know new players do it. and we know they're encouraged to do it.
No we know some do it. And we don't know when they did it or why, except for on case. Basically, you got nothing here but assumptions piled on top of some limited data. Impressive as a turd.
both of the cases i cited, clearly stated when they did it.
i have a fact; new players buy characters. new players buy sp.[/quote]
OMG you got 2 data points!!!!
OMG OMG OMG OMG.
Comeback when you have a random sample of players...say 1,000. Until then stop talking out of your butt.
Oh, and yeah it mattes how old they were, you were defending the position that Laz Telraven bought a character 1 week in game, implying that this is somewhat common.[/quote]
gorski did the same - read his CZ article.
i don't need more than 2 data points. 2 people - players. it's very simple.
we objectively know new players do buy characters. we're not discussing how many do it - i'm telling you new players do it. as illustrated by the fact that two high profile characters have said so and we know new players are encouraged to do so.
i don't need a sample of 1000 to tell you it happens. i only need a sample size that big to give you an estimate of how many do. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
107
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:55:20 -
[2655] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:And that new player will be seeing his peers buy SP. He will see them more efficient at missions. More efficient at exploration. More efficient at mining. Whatever path he chooses there will very likely be players around of similar age but more efficient... because they paid. So maybe he will buy few packs, simply to not feel left behind by what supposed to be his peers. But ultimately he will realize that unless he comes to terms with normal skilling his choices are: sell an arm or quit. New player experience will go south. But perhaps CCP assumes that at this point growth in new subscriptions is not on the table. unlike now where he sees them buy a character, and the same thing happens. what you're pointing out, yet again, isn't a new problem that will magically appear because of this new system. it already exists.
No one buys a toon on the bazaar to run l2s along newcomers. A market with an entry level of 1-2 PLEXes (SP transfer) will be much more pervasive than character bazaar.
You knew this very well when writing. And that why I'm not going to waste more time on this kind of "arguments". |
Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:55:39 -
[2656] - Quote
Talsha Talamar wrote:http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1
Just a thing I wanted to leave here:
Dave Stark187 (7,1%) Querns128 (4,8%) Don ZOLA98 (3,7%) Teckos Pech96 (3,6%)
Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda.
haven forbid the people having a discussion end up with the most posts. |
Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:57:11 -
[2657] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:And that new player will be seeing his peers buy SP. He will see them more efficient at missions. More efficient at exploration. More efficient at mining. Whatever path he chooses there will very likely be players around of similar age but more efficient... because they paid. So maybe he will buy few packs, simply to not feel left behind by what supposed to be his peers. But ultimately he will realize that unless he comes to terms with normal skilling his choices are: sell an arm or quit. New player experience will go south. But perhaps CCP assumes that at this point growth in new subscriptions is not on the table. unlike now where he sees them buy a character, and the same thing happens. what you're pointing out, yet again, isn't a new problem that will magically appear because of this new system. it already exists. No one buys a toon on the bazaar to run l2s along newcomers. A market with an entry level of 1-2 PLEXes (SP transfer) will be much more pervasive than character bazaar. You knew this very well when writing. And that why I'm not going to waste more time on this kind of "arguments".
obviously not, the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet. |
Karin Yang
Eye Of Insight SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 19:58:26 -
[2658] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:It is amazing how determinism get people to absurds that seem logic.
If you strip away the history of EVE, reason for the views the veterans have. If you strip away the fan boys, the people who like eve because they are enthusiastic.
Again, if you strip away everything that doesnt contradict your view, then you are right.
That is amazing how someone can think of it as being a valid point. Well, entire political campaigns in the Caldari States of Lonetrek were built upon, so I dont expect some people to understand how bogus it is.
So ok, lets try: If I strip all the water, cool-aid is actually solid ! (mind blown, ha !)
People play games not only because they like the game, but because there is other people playing.
According to statistics, lack of players in a MMO shows twice as much as content low quality and counterproductive control combined as reasons people leave MMOs. So yeah, the legacy of players and what makes them stay is very important for gathering new players. Trade the satisfaction of those already playing to try get new players is the one single worse move every mmo has made right before their fall.
Lost Hope also figures higher in informed quit list than long learning curve. It is barely the last thing in all the lists people quitting because it takes too long to get to the cap level. And at the present, people are even fed up with games you join today and get cap level tomorrow. The worse problem in this regard is not the length of the process, but the meaning of the pursuit.
To fix the problem of skills, giving skills is just accelerating the real issue, which is the meaning of training the skills. Again, it is not because of tradition, but because of logic, in old times, it was clear the impression that waiting long to sit in a battleship was oh so cool. That made people want to wait. The mistake was not keep the time to get to battleships, but "balance" under the influence of so called "elite pvpers", and make the time you wait to proper fly a battleship get you a ship that is little more than a advanced cruiser that takes the same time to proper fly it.
Even science says that the wait for the reward gives more pleasure to the brain than the reward itself, provided that the reward matches the wait. What upsets people is the null gain. It wont solve the problem to get people in a Battleship in no time, if piloting it is still little more than just single digit DPS increase over a lesser number of classes.
People will gladly wait if those already there give the perception that it is worth it.
People will still quit, if they quickly can see for themselves that even the short wait gives them little to nothing.
Better investment would be to make better placement of the different classes of ship reflecting the time it takes to fly them, rather than giving it all and balancing for "anyone can fly this in no time" scenario.
I got to pilot capitals when fly a capital was "oh so epic". The wait and the expectation is better than today when if you say "I can fly a capital" in local, someone will answer "Cool, who doesnt ?". I can understand some of views from you veterans after reading your post. Well let's follow your logic. As new player, they will never have a chance to feel your satisfaction you once have. After months of training, they can fly a battleship, but "who doesn't?" After years of training, they can fly a carrier, but "who doesn't". So does that mean this game is not worth playing anymore, because new player can never be the tier one? Not true. The game is worth playing because there are more goals to be achieved. It mush be different from veterans' goal, because these goals are no longer achievable. It can be "to be a good FC", or "to be very rich", but not "to fly a carrier" because who doesn't? If you think keep player waiting longer, they can get more pleasure, you forgot your assumption that the reward should match the wait, which is no longer true. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:01:29 -
[2659] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:And if it hurts retention? if skipping arbitrary wait times for new players to actually do things in eve hurts retention - then nothing will improve it. as for single data points, ******* lol - watch the show; they quite clearly state that most of the high level players in null have at some point purchased a character at some point. buying and selling SP isn't new and already exists. Yeah, new players are going to use this extensively and milk and honey for all. Sorry, not buying it. I do not believe that all the new players are going to be buying PLEX to speed up their training times. Some will, but my guess it is a small fraction. As for your "additional" data, were they all a week old at the time? If you don't know, then more bullcrap straws. Go find out. There's no reason to make the game out as if it's so interesting at low SP. If there's a method of progression in-game, how is that not them benefiting? Whether they capitalize on their options or quit is up to the game to seem interesting at that level. I didn't say it was not benefiting them though. I'm just saying I don't think that many will avail themselves to it and to the extent they do it will be somewhat limited. But feel free to assume that all new players are going shell out $80+ on top of their subscription via this mechanism. A single PLEX is being touted as the plausible price for 4 of these -- that's 2M SP, which is clearly helpful.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9271
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:01:31 -
[2660] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:OMG you got 2 data points!!!! OMG OMG OMG OMG. Comeback when you have a random sample of players...say 1,000. Until then stop talking out of your butt. Oh, and yeah it mattes how old they were, you were defending the position that Laz Telraven bought a character 1 week in game, implying that this is somewhat common. gorski did the same - read his CZ article. i don't need more than 2 data points. 2 people - players. it's very simple. we objectively know new players do buy characters. we're not discussing how many do it - i'm telling you new players do it. as illustrated by the fact that two high profile characters have said so and we know new players are encouraged to do so. i don't need a sample of 1000 to tell you it happens. i only need a sample size that big to give you an estimate of how many do. Well, as a long time character trader (8+ years), I can definitively say that plenty of new players buy characters. Always have and always will.
Just sayin'
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
179
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:02:22 -
[2661] - Quote
Trolling is the utmost proof it is a bad idea.
Giving trolling players the means to build WMDs is not a good idea.
CCP already lols over the things that can be achieved by using alts. Imagine if they also serve as "Atomic Skill Enrichment".
It is like the Church instead of teaching moral, start to sell absolution. You know how that turned out. lol
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:14:01 -
[2662] - Quote
Its been an eye opener today thats for sure.
For the life of me i cannot understand how some can think that buying a legacy character with all its foibles is in anyway like buying a pile of skill packets - create a clean slate - send said packets to new toon - instant say, tengu pilot - drop a derp a lose your lvl5 offensive/defensive tree - no prob nip back inject a couple of packs away you go again.
what a complete crock. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3534
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:14:40 -
[2663] - Quote
Talsha Talamar wrote:http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1
Just a thing I wanted to leave here:
Dave Stark187 (7,1%) Querns128 (4,8%) Don ZOLA98 (3,7%) Teckos Pech96 (3,6%)
Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda.
Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9273
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:21:43 -
[2664] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Its been an eye opener today thats for sure.
For the life of me i cannot understand how some can think that buying a legacy character with all its foibles is in anyway like buying a pile of skill packets - create a clean slate - send said packets to new toon - instant say, tengu pilot - drop a derp a lose your lvl5 offensive/defensive tree - no prob nip back inject a couple of packs away you go again.
what a complete crock. " legacy character with all its foibles" LOL!
I don't think the CB is quite what you think it is. Perhaps if you actually checked it out and discovered for yourself how totally wrong you are, it would help in your views.
Or maybe I'll just link you the first 10 clean slate focused characters I see to make it easier for you. Should have it covered on the first page.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:22:10 -
[2665] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Talsha Talamar wrote:http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1
Just a thing I wanted to leave here:
Dave Stark187 (7,1%) Querns128 (4,8%) Don ZOLA98 (3,7%) Teckos Pech96 (3,6%)
Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda. Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. Why, and what's the alternative? Do you have any clue why the game seems an unattractive deal for fresh subs?
With this, they could actually play for progression.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4180
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:22:14 -
[2666] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Talsha Talamar wrote:http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1
Just a thing I wanted to leave here:
Dave Stark187 (7,1%) Querns128 (4,8%) Don ZOLA98 (3,7%) Teckos Pech96 (3,6%)
Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda. Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. Hey, I was against now I'm in favor!
Sorry we seem to be unable to agree on anything...
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3534
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:25:02 -
[2667] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:OMG you got 2 data points!!!! OMG OMG OMG OMG. Comeback when you have a random sample of players...say 1,000. Until then stop talking out of your butt. Oh, and yeah it mattes how old they were, you were defending the position that Laz Telraven bought a character 1 week in game, implying that this is somewhat common. gorski did the same - read his CZ article. i don't need more than 2 data points. 2 people - players. it's very simple. we objectively know new players do buy characters. we're not discussing how many do it - i'm telling you new players do it. as illustrated by the fact that two high profile characters have said so and we know new players are encouraged to do so. i don't need a sample of 1000 to tell you it happens. i only need a sample size that big to give you an estimate of how many do. Well, as a long time character trader (8+ years), I can definitively say that plenty of new players buy characters. Always have and always will. Just sayin' Mr Epeen
What is missing is a relative measure.
Suppose I say 1 million people drive car X. Is car X popular? There are 1 million people who drive that car. What if there are 100 million cars being driven? Is it still popular?
Sorry, still not convinced. Now, you might be right. What I'm saying your "data" (aka, experience is not sufficient).
Yes, a sample, a random sample of new players (say less than a year old) would give us an insight into this. We'd see who did and who did not buy character. We'd have to be careful to ensure that these "new players" are not alt accounts by older players as well. An older player who has worked his way up in an alliance might have considerably more resources than an actual new player joining the game for the first time.
In other words...nobody's got **** in this thread in terms. Neither me, nor you. And I am not saying this decision will be horrible...just that it could end up not being a good thing.
Here is the other thing, people who say, "It is impossible for something bad to happen," scare me. They strike me as failing into the same kind of thinking we saw in the financial industry where people basically said, "Well housing prices can't fall every where." Yeah, but if housing prices are basically going up every where...? I think it is better to approach this saying, "Hmmm, could this be bad?" An honest answer, IMO is, "Yes." Then the next question is, "Well how bad, and what is the likelihood." From there we might have a problem. Going back to the financial meltdown example...they do not happen that often so solid analysis of their likelihood becomes problematic. In other words, you often cannot make reasonable determination of the likelihood. So that leaves, the "How bad" part. What is the worst case scenario? CCP goes down the crapper?
Your earlier examples of the skill queue and so forth never struck me as having this sort of potential. With this one...yeah, I'm a bit worried. Maybe I'm just being a nervous fool...but nobody has posted anything other than speculation and anecdotal evidence.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:25:02 -
[2668] - Quote
Morihei Akachi wrote:Dave Stark wrote:GǪ the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet. One could argue, though, that that's a problem with level 2s etc. Surely thereGÇÖs something a bit problematic about a situation in which new players are confronted with a suboptimal game experience and then offered an option to pay extra in order to avoid it. On one reading, that's providing freedom of choice; on another, though, it's just bad game design. I'd be inclined to go for the latter. Some of the community has that same idea.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=437036
http://www.ninveah.com/2015/10/death-to-skill-system.html
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4180
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:25:40 -
[2669] - Quote
Morihei Akachi wrote:Dave Stark wrote:GǪ the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet. One could argue, though, that that's a problem with level 2s etc. Surely thereGÇÖs something a bit problematic about a situation in which new players are confronted with a suboptimal game experience and then offered an option to pay extra in order to avoid it. On one reading, that's providing freedom of choice; on another, though, it's just bad game design. I'd be inclined to go for the latter. L2s = L4s = anomalies, etc... PVE is always sad.
PVP, on the other hand, is always good. Had the same fun 2 years ago when I started than now. Probably even more at the start. And I was soloing with 3m SP.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3028
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:27:32 -
[2670] - Quote
Talsha Talamar wrote:http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1
Just a thing I wanted to leave here:
Dave Stark187 (7,1%) Querns128 (4,8%) Don ZOLA98 (3,7%) Teckos Pech96 (3,6%)
Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda.
Golly! I thought Mr Dave was way more than 7.1%
Give the poor chap time and he will up his percentage.
His virtually lone stand is almost heroic in the face of overwhelming opposition to CCP's latest wheeze to chisel more money out of players.
This is not a signature.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3535
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:27:45 -
[2671] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Talsha Talamar wrote:http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1
Just a thing I wanted to leave here:
Dave Stark187 (7,1%) Querns128 (4,8%) Don ZOLA98 (3,7%) Teckos Pech96 (3,6%)
Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda. Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. Hey, I was against now I'm in favor! Sorry we seem to be unable to agree on anything...
Well to be honest, I'm not 100% against the concept. Maybe if it started out with a limit, say no more than 20 million SP can be injected and change the decreasing returns to fit this new limit.
See how that goes, and maybe adjust it as time goes on....
I'm not 100% against it.
Good God I really am John Kerry with all this nuance crap.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
tainted demon
Danger Gnomes Vendetta Mercenary Group
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:28:48 -
[2672] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Its been an eye opener today thats for sure.
For the life of me i cannot understand how some can think that buying a legacy character with all its foibles is in anyway like buying a pile of skill packets - create a clean slate - send said packets to new toon - instant say, tengu pilot - drop a derp a lose your lvl5 offensive/defensive tree - no prob nip back inject a couple of packs away you go again.
what a complete crock.
not to mention with THIS system an older character who wants to pay to max something out has to pay more money to do it because they somehow get less SP in return for the same cost |
Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:29:49 -
[2673] - Quote
Morihei Akachi wrote:Dave Stark wrote:GǪ the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet. One could argue, though, that that's a problem with level 2s etc. Surely thereGÇÖs something a bit problematic about a situation in which new players are confronted with a suboptimal game experience and then offered an option to pay extra in order to avoid it. On one reading, that's providing freedom of choice; on another, though, it's just bad game design. I'd be inclined to go for the latter.
most of the skills you're training to slog through level 2s are core skills that impact pretty much every aspect of eve. support skills, fitting skills, navigation skills.
level 2 missions suck, but making them suck less won't magically make skills that are pretty much mandatory train automatically upon account creation. it's still a few weeks/months people will have to endure or bypass. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:31:33 -
[2674] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Morihei Akachi wrote:Dave Stark wrote:GǪ the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet. One could argue, though, that that's a problem with level 2s etc. Surely thereGÇÖs something a bit problematic about a situation in which new players are confronted with a suboptimal game experience and then offered an option to pay extra in order to avoid it. On one reading, that's providing freedom of choice; on another, though, it's just bad game design. I'd be inclined to go for the latter. most of the skills you're training to slog through level 2s are core skills that impact pretty much every aspect of eve. support skills, fitting skills, navigation skills. level 2 missions suck, but making them suck less won't magically make skills that are pretty much mandatory train automatically upon account creation. it's still a few weeks/months people will have to endure or bypass. ..And you're welcome to confirm or refute how this is completely a negative design and plausibly the reason the game has yet to really escalate.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Jared Khanar
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:31:42 -
[2675] - Quote
Morihei Akachi wrote:Surely thereGÇÖs something a bit problematic about a situation in which new players are confronted with a suboptimal game experience and then offered an option to pay extra in order to avoid it. On one reading, that's providing freedom of choice; on another, though, it's just bad game design. I'd be inclined to go for the latter.
Welcome to the world of microtransactions. If it is good game design you won-¦t pay a dime to ... "ignore" it - thats how this works - expect more of both to come in eve |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:32:50 -
[2676] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Your paying your sub for that and there are alot more things to keep you happy now as opposed to 9+ years ago, granted if you have been in game a certain length of time the best option is to max the queue and leave it for a month or so but its not costing you anything over your subs. I'll admit, my English isn't good enough to parse whatever's being said here. The one piece that sticks out for me is:
"alot more things to keep you happy now"
If you want to argue that skipping the SP grind would cause players to leave because they're bored, the necessary implication is that EVE itself isn't fun. It has no "things to keep you happy".
That basically makes EVE the equivalent of SWTOR: Nice story while you're leveling, but un-sub as soon as you hit end game. Except SP doesn't even provide a nice story, so the real description you're arguing for is "Get annoyed waiting for months to do something you don't like." |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:33:13 -
[2677] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Its been an eye opener today thats for sure.
For the life of me i cannot understand how some can think that buying a legacy character with all its foibles is in anyway like buying a pile of skill packets - create a clean slate - send said packets to new toon - instant say, tengu pilot - drop a derp a lose your lvl5 offensive/defensive tree - no prob nip back inject a couple of packs away you go again.
what a complete crock. " legacy character with all its foibles" LOL! I don't think the CB is quite what you think it is. Perhaps if you actually checked it out and discovered for yourself how totally wrong you are, it would help in your views. Or maybe I'll just link you the first 10 clean slate focused characters I see to make it easier for you. Should have it covered on the first page. Mr Epeen
Your another that needs to learn to read, legacy character with all its foibles Vs a new toon ( clean slate ) seeing as ive sold close to 40 toons over the years im fully aware of how the bazaar works and eveboard to let the folks know what sort of toon theyre getting, i would prefer to loose the bazaar and get the chance to remap a characters skills. |
Jessica Danikov
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
453
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:34:59 -
[2678] - Quote
Transneural Skill Points need to have the originating player in the description.
Also disappointed that the Brain Overlay eXtractor didn't get so much love, don't people want a brain in a BOX? |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
1054
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:35:51 -
[2679] - Quote
Querns wrote:grevicious wrote:is this the same way WoW went PAY TO WIN. game dead I'd choose a different example if I were you. WoW is certainly less trafficked than it was in its heyday, but it is FAR from dead. WoW is dead. It is still walking. But it is dead.
Remove insurance.
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Dave Stark
7580
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:36:13 -
[2680] - Quote
Dror wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Morihei Akachi wrote:Dave Stark wrote:GǪ the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet. One could argue, though, that that's a problem with level 2s etc. Surely thereGÇÖs something a bit problematic about a situation in which new players are confronted with a suboptimal game experience and then offered an option to pay extra in order to avoid it. On one reading, that's providing freedom of choice; on another, though, it's just bad game design. I'd be inclined to go for the latter. most of the skills you're training to slog through level 2s are core skills that impact pretty much every aspect of eve. support skills, fitting skills, navigation skills. level 2 missions suck, but making them suck less won't magically make skills that are pretty much mandatory train automatically upon account creation. it's still a few weeks/months people will have to endure or bypass. ..And you're welcome to confirm or refute how this is completely a negative design and plausibly the reason the game has yet to really escalate.
what? |
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3536
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:37:20 -
[2681] - Quote
Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Talsha Talamar wrote:http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1
Just a thing I wanted to leave here:
Dave Stark187 (7,1%) Querns128 (4,8%) Don ZOLA98 (3,7%) Teckos Pech96 (3,6%)
Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda. Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. Why, and what's the alternative? Do you have any clue why the game seems an unattractive deal for fresh subs? With this, they could actually play for progression.
One of the reasons I oppose this is that IMO, it will be something in favor of older players. Older players do not need a new advantage.
I'll use myself as an example:
1. I have 123 million SP on this character alone. All totaled across my alts probably more than 300 million SP. 2. I belong to a NS corp with lots of other older players who can help me directly and/or indirectly in game. 3. I belong to a NS alliance with lots of older and some newer players who can help me directly and/or indirectly. 4. We belong to one of the biggest coalitions in the game which can help me directly and/or indirectly. 5. I have been in game 8 years, I have done lots of things and know quite a bit about the mechanics of the game. 6. I have billions of ISK in my wallets and even more billions in assets.
Now on top of this you'll give me the ability to almost surely PLEX one account while still being able to use that account to earn even more ISK?
Compared to a new player what do they have?
1, 5, and 6 are flat out No for all three. 2,3 and 4 are maybes, but probably not at least for awhile.
This proposal will at best let a new player close the gap on 1 a bit. For a few select new players they might close the gap quite a bit, but most will close it by nearly trivial amounts.
I can use this new mechanic much more effectively than a new player, IMO. In fact, right now I plan on it. If it goes into effect soon enough, I'll get a third AFKtar out in the anomalies, I'll keep my PI empire and have one of my alts train AWU V in perpetuity and drain of the SP to PLEX that account.
Will that help new players? Maybe, but just not seeing it.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9276
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:40:06 -
[2682] - Quote
Mara Pahrdi wrote: WoW is dead. It is still walking. But it is dead.
From my understanding, anything walking dead is pretty popular these days.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4181
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:42:00 -
[2683] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Talsha Talamar wrote:http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1
Just a thing I wanted to leave here:
Dave Stark187 (7,1%) Querns128 (4,8%) Don ZOLA98 (3,7%) Teckos Pech96 (3,6%)
Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda. Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. Why, and what's the alternative? Do you have any clue why the game seems an unattractive deal for fresh subs? With this, they could actually play for progression. One of the reasons I oppose this is that IMO, it will be something in favor of older players. Older players do not need a new advantage. I'll use myself as an example: 1. I have 123 million SP on this character alone. All totaled across my alts probably more than 300 million SP. 2. I belong to a NS corp with lots of other older players who can help me directly and/or indirectly in game. 3. I belong to a NS alliance with lots of older and some newer players who can help me directly and/or indirectly. 4. We belong to one of the biggest coalitions in the game which can help me directly and/or indirectly. 5. I have been in game 8 years, I have done lots of things and know quite a bit about the mechanics of the game. 6. I have billions of ISK in my wallets and even more billions in assets. Now on top of this you'll give me the ability to almost surely PLEX on account while still being able to use that account to earn even more ISK? Compared to a new player what do they have? 1, 5, and 6 are flat out No for all three. 2,3 and 4 are maybes, but probably not at least for awhile. This proposal will at best let a new player close the gap on 1 a bit. For a few select new players they might close the gap quite a bit, but most will close it by nearly trivial amounts. I can use this new mechanic much more effectively than a new player, IMO. In fact, right now I plan on it. If it goes into effect soon enough, I'll get a third AFKtar out in the anomalies, I'll keep my PI empire and have one of my alts train AWU V in perpetuity and drain of the SP to PLEX that account. Will that help new players? Maybe, but just not seeing it. Well, you could give a new player your excess SP for free.
Or, your coalition could...
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3536
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:42:51 -
[2684] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Mara Pahrdi wrote: WoW is dead. It is still walking. But it is dead.
From my understanding, anything walking dead is pretty popular these days. Mr Epeen
Well there was some drama about TWD's season opener's veiwership...it was only 14.6 million, lower than season 4 and season 5. Which is unusual in that I thought that this seasons opening was much better than season 4 with all that farmer Rick stuff.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3536
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:43:58 -
[2685] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Talsha Talamar wrote:http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1
Just a thing I wanted to leave here:
Dave Stark187 (7,1%) Querns128 (4,8%) Don ZOLA98 (3,7%) Teckos Pech96 (3,6%)
Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda. Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. Why, and what's the alternative? Do you have any clue why the game seems an unattractive deal for fresh subs? With this, they could actually play for progression. One of the reasons I oppose this is that IMO, it will be something in favor of older players. Older players do not need a new advantage. I'll use myself as an example: 1. I have 123 million SP on this character alone. All totaled across my alts probably more than 300 million SP. 2. I belong to a NS corp with lots of other older players who can help me directly and/or indirectly in game. 3. I belong to a NS alliance with lots of older and some newer players who can help me directly and/or indirectly. 4. We belong to one of the biggest coalitions in the game which can help me directly and/or indirectly. 5. I have been in game 8 years, I have done lots of things and know quite a bit about the mechanics of the game. 6. I have billions of ISK in my wallets and even more billions in assets. Now on top of this you'll give me the ability to almost surely PLEX on account while still being able to use that account to earn even more ISK? Compared to a new player what do they have? 1, 5, and 6 are flat out No for all three. 2,3 and 4 are maybes, but probably not at least for awhile. This proposal will at best let a new player close the gap on 1 a bit. For a few select new players they might close the gap quite a bit, but most will close it by nearly trivial amounts. I can use this new mechanic much more effectively than a new player, IMO. In fact, right now I plan on it. If it goes into effect soon enough, I'll get a third AFKtar out in the anomalies, I'll keep my PI empire and have one of my alts train AWU V in perpetuity and drain of the SP to PLEX that account. Will that help new players? Maybe, but just not seeing it. Well, you could give a new player your excess SP for free. Or, your coalition could...
Are you nuts? When I can fleece them in the market place?!?!?!?
This is EVE man, never give anything away unless you can set up a longer term gain down the road.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Eternity Mistseeker
Renegades of Eve Aureus Alae
16
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Posted - 2015.10.17 20:48:45 -
[2686] - Quote
This is not a mechanism for helping new players...
If you want to help new players start in the game then you add a mechanism that helps *all* new players, not just those with access to additional RL money or friends/alts with significant ISK reserves... |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2603
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:49:16 -
[2687] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
obviously not, the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet.
Or we could fix content so that level 2's, 1/10 sigs, the easy anoms and such aren't 'irrelevant content' and ignore this terrible idea of 'you can spend real money to get ahead'. Seriously...... The only way a newbie can take part in this is to spend real money.
Ergo this is directly telling a new player 'pay cash to get better content'.
It's terrible in basically every way, old players have already worked out a bunch of ways to abuse this system, it's a perfect example of a bad idea combined with Malcanis's law. |
Dave Stark
7581
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:52:05 -
[2688] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
obviously not, the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet.
Or we could fix content so that level 2's, 1/10 sigs, the easy anoms and such aren't 'irrelevant content' and ignore this terrible idea of 'you can spend real money to get ahead'. Seriously...... The only way a newbie can take part in this is to spend real money. Ergo this is directly telling a new player 'pay cash to get better content'. It's terrible in basically every way, old players have already worked out a bunch of ways to abuse this system, it's a perfect example of a bad idea combined with Malcanis's law.
fixing irrelevant content like that doesn't fix the problem that you're only doing it because you don't have the SP to do other things. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3028
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:54:18 -
[2689] - Quote
Eternity Mistseeker wrote:This is not a mechanism for helping new players...
If you want to help new players start in the game then you add a mechanism that helps *all* new players, not just those with access to additional RL money or friends/alts with significant ISK reserves...
^^^the above is a good a description as any, why on a practical level the sp idea is bad.
Not quite 'pay to win' but at the very least, 'pay with rl cash' to get a considerable advantage.
This is not a signature.
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Morihei Akachi
Nishida Corporation
207
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:55:22 -
[2690] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:GǪfixing irrelevant content like that doesn't fix the problem that you're only doing it because you don't have the SP to do other things. I donGÇÖt understand this statement. If it were genuinely interesting, you would do it for its own sake. ThatGÇÖs what "interesting" means.
"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and donGÇÖt belong in Eve Online. (And as for GÇ£scopedGÇ¥ GǪ)
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2015.10.17 20:55:52 -
[2691] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Dror wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Morihei Akachi wrote:Dave Stark wrote:GǪ the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet. One could argue, though, that that's a problem with level 2s etc. Surely thereGÇÖs something a bit problematic about a situation in which new players are confronted with a suboptimal game experience and then offered an option to pay extra in order to avoid it. On one reading, that's providing freedom of choice; on another, though, it's just bad game design. I'd be inclined to go for the latter. most of the skills you're training to slog through level 2s are core skills that impact pretty much every aspect of eve. support skills, fitting skills, navigation skills. level 2 missions suck, but making them suck less won't magically make skills that are pretty much mandatory train automatically upon account creation. it's still a few weeks/months people will have to endure or bypass. ..And you're welcome to confirm or refute how this is completely a negative design and plausibly the reason the game has yet to really escalate. what? big words are fine, but at least put them in a coherent sentence. Key words layout here:
You are welcome to
confirm or refute how
"problematic it is that new players are confronted with a suboptimal game experience and offered an option to pay extra for avoiding it" ..is negative
and plausibly the reason the game has yet to [be a massive success].
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3537
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:57:33 -
[2692] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
obviously not, the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet.
Or we could fix content so that level 2's, 1/10 sigs, the easy anoms and such aren't 'irrelevant content' and ignore this terrible idea of 'you can spend real money to get ahead'. Seriously...... The only way a newbie can take part in this is to spend real money. Ergo this is directly telling a new player 'pay cash to get better content'. It's terrible in basically every way, old players have already worked out a bunch of ways to abuse this system, it's a perfect example of a bad idea combined with Malcanis's law. fixing irrelevant content like that doesn't fix the problem that you're only doing it because you don't have the SP to do other things.
I think that was his point. A new guy going to NS has very few options in terms of making ISK. Even the lower end anomalies are problematic. So they are irrelevant because the new players can't do them and the older ones ignore them.
Change that. That makes sense.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dave stark
7581
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:59:09 -
[2693] - Quote
Morihei Akachi wrote:Dave Stark wrote:GǪfixing irrelevant content like that doesn't fix the problem that you're only doing it because you don't have the SP to do other things. I donGÇÖt understand this statement. If it were genuinely interesting, you would do it for its own sake. ThatGÇÖs what "interesting" means.
and for those that find missions interesting they do level 4s. however if you can't run level 4s because you don't have the SP to fly an appropriate ship adequately you're forced to do do lower level, irrelevant, missions while you wait an arbitrary amount of time for you to be able to run level 4 missions.
that, or you just bypass the whole thing and buy a decent character for mission running. |
Dave stark
7581
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:00:42 -
[2694] - Quote
Dror wrote:the reason the game has yet to [be a massive success].
considering the game's already a massive success by several metrics - what the **** are you talking about? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:00:44 -
[2695] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
obviously not, the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet.
Or we could fix content so that level 2's, 1/10 sigs, the easy anoms and such aren't 'irrelevant content' and ignore this terrible idea of 'you can spend real money to get ahead'. Seriously...... The only way a newbie can take part in this is to spend real money. Ergo this is directly telling a new player 'pay cash to get better content'. It's terrible in basically every way, old players have already worked out a bunch of ways to abuse this system, it's a perfect example of a bad idea combined with Malcanis's law. fixing irrelevant content like that doesn't fix the problem that you're only doing it because you don't have the SP to do other things.
Broken record .... post hiking |
Morihei Akachi
Nishida Corporation
207
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:01:14 -
[2696] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Morihei Akachi wrote:Dave Stark wrote:GǪfixing irrelevant content like that doesn't fix the problem that you're only doing it because you don't have the SP to do other things. I donGÇÖt understand this statement. If it were genuinely interesting, you would do it for its own sake. ThatGÇÖs what "interesting" means. and for those that find missions interesting they do level 4s. however if you can't run level 4s because you don't have the SP to fly an appropriate ship adequately you're forced to do do lower level, irrelevant, missions while you wait an arbitrary amount of time for you to be able to run level 4 missions. that, or you just bypass the whole thing and buy a decent character for mission running. IGÇÖm beginning to think that by "irrelevant" you only mean "doesnGÇÖt pay as well as some other things." Would I be right about this?
"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and donGÇÖt belong in Eve Online. (And as for GÇ£scopedGÇ¥ GǪ)
|
Dave stark
7581
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:02:38 -
[2697] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
obviously not, the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet.
Or we could fix content so that level 2's, 1/10 sigs, the easy anoms and such aren't 'irrelevant content' and ignore this terrible idea of 'you can spend real money to get ahead'. Seriously...... The only way a newbie can take part in this is to spend real money. Ergo this is directly telling a new player 'pay cash to get better content'. It's terrible in basically every way, old players have already worked out a bunch of ways to abuse this system, it's a perfect example of a bad idea combined with Malcanis's law. fixing irrelevant content like that doesn't fix the problem that you're only doing it because you don't have the SP to do other things. Broken record .... post hiking
if i keep having to tell people the same thing; perhaps they should stop repeating the same incorrect statements in reply to me. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9276
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:02:53 -
[2698] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Mara Pahrdi wrote: WoW is dead. It is still walking. But it is dead.
From my understanding, anything walking dead is pretty popular these days. Mr Epeen Well there was some drama about TWD's season opener's veiwership...it was only 14.6 million, lower than season 4 and season 5. Which is unusual in that I thought that this seasons opening was much better than season 4 with all that farmer Rick stuff.
iZombie and Z Nation should make up the difference in numbers.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Jared Khanar
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:04:13 -
[2699] - Quote
@ Dave Stark
You, defending a clearly destructive feature, seem to have a personal outcome of this. Tell us please what is it? I-¦m very curious.
You also seem to have thought about this very long and are clearly having good arguments for it.
Please tell me your opinion to one of my previous posts: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6106535#post6106535
I-¦m willing to view this feature positivly if you please be so kind to invalidate my worries.
Thanks |
Dave stark
7581
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:04:54 -
[2700] - Quote
Morihei Akachi wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Morihei Akachi wrote:Dave Stark wrote:GǪfixing irrelevant content like that doesn't fix the problem that you're only doing it because you don't have the SP to do other things. I donGÇÖt understand this statement. If it were genuinely interesting, you would do it for its own sake. ThatGÇÖs what "interesting" means. and for those that find missions interesting they do level 4s. however if you can't run level 4s because you don't have the SP to fly an appropriate ship adequately you're forced to do do lower level, irrelevant, missions while you wait an arbitrary amount of time for you to be able to run level 4 missions. that, or you just bypass the whole thing and buy a decent character for mission running. IGÇÖm beginning to think that by "irrelevant" you only mean "doesnGÇÖt pay as well as some other things." Would I be right about this?
i mean irrelevant as "stuff you do because you can't do anything else yet". that content serves no purpose other than to give you "something to do" while you wait for skills to finish because you didn't bypass it by buying SP. |
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3537
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:06:17 -
[2701] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Mara Pahrdi wrote: WoW is dead. It is still walking. But it is dead.
From my understanding, anything walking dead is pretty popular these days. Mr Epeen Well there was some drama about TWD's season opener's veiwership...it was only 14.6 million, lower than season 4 and season 5. Which is unusual in that I thought that this seasons opening was much better than season 4 with all that farmer Rick stuff. iZombie and Z Nation should make up the difference in numbers. Mr Epeen
Well there was talk of a football game, and it might go up down the road for example I watch via Amazon Prime, so I wasn't counted the night the show first aired as there is a lag.
And to keep on topic.
CCP please don't do this or I'll quite!!!!! (Not really, well the quitting part ).
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
201
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:06:49 -
[2702] - Quote
BrundleMeth wrote:I remember when they introduced the 24 hour skill queue. People went ballistic, calling it the end of EVE. Then, they went to an unlimited skill queue...and no one said anything. My point is...this new idea...whatever... No everyone was pretty much in favour of the unlimited skill que. Perhaps a couple of people didn't like it but comparing it to the backlash to this idea, the difference is like night and day.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3537
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:10:13 -
[2703] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Morihei Akachi wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Morihei Akachi wrote:Dave Stark wrote:GǪfixing irrelevant content like that doesn't fix the problem that you're only doing it because you don't have the SP to do other things. I donGÇÖt understand this statement. If it were genuinely interesting, you would do it for its own sake. ThatGÇÖs what "interesting" means. and for those that find missions interesting they do level 4s. however if you can't run level 4s because you don't have the SP to fly an appropriate ship adequately you're forced to do do lower level, irrelevant, missions while you wait an arbitrary amount of time for you to be able to run level 4 missions. that, or you just bypass the whole thing and buy a decent character for mission running. IGÇÖm beginning to think that by "irrelevant" you only mean "doesnGÇÖt pay as well as some other things." Would I be right about this? i mean irrelevant as "stuff you do because you can't do anything else yet". that content serves no purpose other than to give you "something to do" while you wait for skills to finish because you didn't bypass it by buying SP.
Not entirely true. Until recently we had a corp that really encouraged new players to join and move to NS. Problem is some of these players could not do even the lowest of anomalies and had to spend their time coming in and salvaging the Havens and sanctums the olders did.
Change the lower level anomalies to make the new player friendly, that way while they are waiting for me to finish a haven, they can run the lower level anomalies and help contribute to the defense index too.
Is this going to be a magic bullet and reverse the trend in terms of players logged on? Probably not, but so what.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:10:36 -
[2704] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Talsha Talamar wrote:http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1
Just a thing I wanted to leave here:
Dave Stark187 (7,1%) Querns128 (4,8%) Don ZOLA98 (3,7%) Teckos Pech96 (3,6%)
Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda. Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. Why, and what's the alternative? Do you have any clue why the game seems an unattractive deal for fresh subs? With this, they could actually play for progression. One of the reasons I oppose this is that IMO, it will be something in favor of older players. Older players do not need a new advantage. I'll use myself as an example: 1. I have 123 million SP on this character alone. All totaled across my alts probably more than 300 million SP. 2. I belong to a NS corp with lots of other older players who can help me directly and/or indirectly in game. 3. I belong to a NS alliance with lots of older and some newer players who can help me directly and/or indirectly. 4. We belong to one of the biggest coalitions in the game which can help me directly and/or indirectly. 5. I have been in game 8 years, I have done lots of things and know quite a bit about the mechanics of the game. 6. I have billions of ISK in my wallets and even more billions in assets. Now on top of this you'll give me the ability to almost surely PLEX one account while still being able to use that account to earn even more ISK? Compared to a new player what do they have? 1, 5, and 6 are flat out No for all three. 2,3 and 4 are maybes, but probably not at least for awhile. This proposal will at best let a new player close the gap on 1 a bit. For a few select new players they might close the gap quite a bit, but most will close it by nearly trivial amounts. I can use this new mechanic much more effectively than a new player, IMO. In fact, right now I plan on it. If it goes into effect soon enough, I'll get a third AFKtar out in the anomalies, I'll keep my PI empire and have one of my alts train AWU V in perpetuity and drain of the SP to PLEX that account. Will that help new players? Maybe, but just not seeing it. How does you making more ISK show that it doesn't help newbies? It's not about you making ISK, nor is it about you having SP -- except that the average level of SP makes him non-competitive.
This allows them to figure out game mechanics enough to come up on SP in-game -- outplaying the very mechanic that's keeping them from enjoying the game in any deep manner.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
201
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:11:27 -
[2705] - Quote
The truth is Rise doesn't really know what he is doing when it comes to new player retention and is flailing about now with this idea in an attempt to salvage his failed opportunities idea.
I could have told him the opportunity system wouldn't work, but for some reason he has taken that failure as a green light to put in this poor system. There were a lot of good suggestions in the new player retention thread, I'd suggest going back there and getting ideas from that. There was nothing like this idea that was suggested.
This idea will not make any difference to new player retention, in fact it will most likely have a negative effect.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3537
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:11:48 -
[2706] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:I remember when they introduced the 24 hour skill queue. People went ballistic, calling it the end of EVE. Then, they went to an unlimited skill queue...and no one said anything. My point is...this new idea...whatever... No everyone was pretty much in favour of the unlimited skill que. Perhaps a couple of people didn't like it but comparing it to the backlash to this idea, the difference is like night and day.
Really, were people that freaked out about the 24 hour skill queue? Seriously?
Was there a threadnaught?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Morihei Akachi
Nishida Corporation
207
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:13:15 -
[2707] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:GǪ serves no purpose GǪ But it could. It could be genuinely fun to do, so that people like doing it for its own sake. That would make it relevant and interesting. ItGÇÖs a game after all. You want to be having fun. So make the things people can do at lower skill levels genuinely fun, so that they donGÇÖt feel this apparently overwhelming need to fork out extra cash in order to skip them.
Unfortunately, that doesnGÇÖt seem to be the strategy that CCP are going to follow.
"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and donGÇÖt belong in Eve Online. (And as for GÇ£scopedGÇ¥ GǪ)
|
Dave Stark
7581
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:13:59 -
[2708] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Not entirely true. Until recently we had a corp that really encouraged new players to join and move to NS. Problem is some of these players could not do even the lowest of anomalies and had to spend their time coming in and salvaging the Havens and sanctums the olders did.
Change the lower level anomalies to make the new player friendly, that way while they are waiting for me to finish a haven, they can run the lower level anomalies and help contribute to the defense index too.
Is this going to be a magic bullet and reverse the trend in terms of players logged on? Probably not, but so what.
that issue doesn't arise from lower level combat sites being bad. afaik, there simply aren't any in that area of space? |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:15:27 -
[2709] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Dror wrote:the reason the game has yet to [be a massive success]. considering the game's already a massive success by several metrics - what the **** are you talking about? 30k peak concurrent, with more like 20k, isn't what comes through as a huge feature. Even more, it's a single server shard with over 5k systems.
You're already stating that SP is an arbitrary progression. It's just worth noting that all of the game could improve without it -- more than just a few percents of sub retention.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Jared Khanar
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:16:12 -
[2710] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: i'm not defending anything.
i'm just pointing out that literally every "issue" that could possibly come from this we already have from the character bazaar.
my personal outcome? the vain hope that some one can actually give a reason why *this* idea is bad, not why something we already have is bad.
i haven't had to think about it very long at all - all the counterarguments have been known for ages since all the "issues" are things we already have. people can already "pay to win" (******* lol, it's not even remotely close to that) yet somehow apparently it's only an issue if this is added? come on now.
if you think this system is destructive - well, then so is the character bazaar and eve hasn't imploded yet so i sincerely doubt this idea will cause the servers to spontaneously combust.
Just because there is already something that has a specific form or effects doesn-¦t mean everything else should be changed to reflect this or new things have to be introduced that also follow this manner in more offensive ways. This also doesn-¦t make the "negative" effects fanish if you put more things like this in - it accumulates them.
EDIT: I-¦m very sad you haven-¦t commented my linked post ;) |
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
202
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:16:24 -
[2711] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Moac Tor wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:I remember when they introduced the 24 hour skill queue. People went ballistic, calling it the end of EVE. Then, they went to an unlimited skill queue...and no one said anything. My point is...this new idea...whatever... No everyone was pretty much in favour of the unlimited skill que. Perhaps a couple of people didn't like it but comparing it to the backlash to this idea, the difference is like night and day. Really, were people that freaked out about the 24 hour skill queue? Seriously? Was there a threadnaught? I misread Brundle's quote earlier. There was no argument about the unlimited skill que. Even the vet players were happy with it. So I'd say that indicates change is well received if it is a good idea.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Chrome Veinss
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:18:49 -
[2712] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Talsha Talamar wrote:http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1
Just a thing I wanted to leave here:
Dave Stark187 (7,1%) Querns128 (4,8%) Don ZOLA98 (3,7%) Teckos Pech96 (3,6%)
Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda. Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. Why, and what's the alternative? Do you have any clue why the game seems an unattractive deal for fresh subs? With this, they could actually play for progression. One of the reasons I oppose this is that IMO, it will be something in favor of older players. Older players do not need a new advantage. I'll use myself as an example: 1. I have 123 million SP on this character alone. All totaled across my alts probably more than 300 million SP. 2. I belong to a NS corp with lots of other older players who can help me directly and/or indirectly in game. 3. I belong to a NS alliance with lots of older and some newer players who can help me directly and/or indirectly. 4. We belong to one of the biggest coalitions in the game which can help me directly and/or indirectly. 5. I have been in game 8 years, I have done lots of things and know quite a bit about the mechanics of the game. 6. I have billions of ISK in my wallets and even more billions in assets. Now on top of this you'll give me the ability to almost surely PLEX one account while still being able to use that account to earn even more ISK? Compared to a new player what do they have? 1, 5, and 6 are flat out No for all three. 2,3 and 4 are maybes, but probably not at least for awhile. This proposal will at best let a new player close the gap on 1 a bit. For a few select new players they might close the gap quite a bit, but most will close it by nearly trivial amounts. I can use this new mechanic much more effectively than a new player, IMO. In fact, right now I plan on it. If it goes into effect soon enough, I'll get a third AFKtar out in the anomalies, I'll keep my PI empire and have one of my alts train AWU V in perpetuity and drain of the SP to PLEX that account. Will that help new players? Maybe, but just not seeing it.
Its not about "closing the gap". In fact you seem to have a very good idea of what this is actually about: Its about letting people skip a week of skill training for some isk and letting people get rid of sp they dont want or need to get some isk. That's all it is. Its effects are having a sp boosted newbie skip the terrible first month flying tackle frigates and dying 5 minutes into ops and having 3 year old 50 mill sp players like me get slightly closer to flying another of the many many ships we still cant fly.
|
Dave Stark
7581
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:22:25 -
[2713] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Dave Stark wrote: i'm not defending anything.
i'm just pointing out that literally every "issue" that could possibly come from this we already have from the character bazaar.
my personal outcome? the vain hope that some one can actually give a reason why *this* idea is bad, not why something we already have is bad.
i haven't had to think about it very long at all - all the counterarguments have been known for ages since all the "issues" are things we already have. people can already "pay to win" (******* lol, it's not even remotely close to that) yet somehow apparently it's only an issue if this is added? come on now.
if you think this system is destructive - well, then so is the character bazaar and eve hasn't imploded yet so i sincerely doubt this idea will cause the servers to spontaneously combust.
Just because there is already something that has a specific form or effects doesn-¦t mean everything else should be changed to reflect this or new things have to be introduced that also follow this manner in more offensive ways. This also doesn-¦t make the "negative" effects fanish if you put more things like this in - it accumulates them. EDIT: I-¦m very sad you haven-¦t commented my linked post ;)
because most of your linked post is about price - which we've done to death already and we can't really discuss more because we don't know the price of extractors. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:23:33 -
[2714] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:@ Dave Stark You, defending a clearly destructive feature, seem to have a personal outcome of this. Tell us please what is it? I-¦m very curious. You also seem to have thought about this very long and are clearly having good arguments for it. Please tell me your opinion to one of my previous posts: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6106535#post6106535 I-¦m willing to view this feature positivly if you please be so kind to invalidate my worries. Thanks i'm not defending anything. i'm just pointing out that literally every "issue" that could possibly come from this we already have from the character bazaar. my personal outcome? the vain hope that some one can actually give a reason why *this* idea is bad, not why something we already have is bad. i haven't had to think about it very long at all - all the counterarguments have been known for ages since all the "issues" are things we already have. people can already "pay to win" (******* lol, it's not even remotely close to that) yet somehow apparently it's only an issue if this is added? come on now. if you think this system is destructive - well, then so is the character bazaar and eve hasn't imploded yet so i sincerely doubt this idea will cause the servers to spontaneously combust.
In what EvE universe do you play in that gives you the option to build the perfect toon now, in ours with the bazaar is doesnt but you keep on harping on its the same. If i give you a list now of something i want you create it for me and ill turn over everything i have to you. |
Dave Stark
7581
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:25:57 -
[2715] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:In what EvE universe do you play in that gives you the option to build the perfect toon now, in ours with the bazaar is doesnt but you keep on harping on its the same. If i give you a list now of something i want you create it for me and ill turn over everything i have to you.
yes, the bazaar does. you find a character with the skills you want - and you purchase it. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3537
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:26:02 -
[2716] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:I remember when they introduced the 24 hour skill queue. People went ballistic, calling it the end of EVE. Then, they went to an unlimited skill queue...and no one said anything. My point is...this new idea...whatever... No everyone was pretty much in favour of the unlimited skill que. Perhaps a couple of people didn't like it but comparing it to the backlash to this idea, the difference is like night and day.
Okay, finally found the Dev Blog thread on the initial 24 hour skill queue and the first page is pretty much supportive.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=989819
There are 25 pages of posts.
So, I'm going to guess nope. Most people felt the skill queue was a good idea long over due.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:26:12 -
[2717] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i mean irrelevant as "stuff you do because you can't do anything else yet". that content serves no purpose other than to give you "something to do" while you wait for skills to finish because you didn't bypass it by buying SP. Not entirely true. Until recently we had a corp that really encouraged new players to join and move to NS. Problem is some of these players could not do even the lowest of anomalies and had to spend their time coming in and salvaging the Havens and sanctums the olders did. Change the lower level anomalies to make the new player friendly, that way while they are waiting for me to finish a haven, they can run the lower level anomalies and help contribute to the defense index too. Is this going to be a magic bullet and reverse the trend in terms of players logged on? Probably not, but so what. You're admitting that fresh characters have little to do -- saying it's a problem. How is that not an SP issue? The anomalies are designed to provide payment from a rookie ship through capitals. Why edit the result of a problem and not its cause (them having nothing relevant to do)?
This scales.. through PvP, diversity of options, and exactly what content makes it to the veterans -- SP reduces all of that. There's no evidence that it provides more than it takes away, content being the crux.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:26:40 -
[2718] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:In what EvE universe do you play in that gives you the option to build the perfect toon now, in ours with the bazaar is doesnt but you keep on harping on its the same. If i give you a list now of something i want you create it for me and ill turn over everything i have to you. yes, the bazaar does. you find a character with the skills you want - and you purchase it.
Like i said your full of ****, sure your not on the payroll |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3537
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:28:55 -
[2719] - Quote
Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i mean irrelevant as "stuff you do because you can't do anything else yet". that content serves no purpose other than to give you "something to do" while you wait for skills to finish because you didn't bypass it by buying SP. Not entirely true. Until recently we had a corp that really encouraged new players to join and move to NS. Problem is some of these players could not do even the lowest of anomalies and had to spend their time coming in and salvaging the Havens and sanctums the olders did. Change the lower level anomalies to make the new player friendly, that way while they are waiting for me to finish a haven, they can run the lower level anomalies and help contribute to the defense index too. Is this going to be a magic bullet and reverse the trend in terms of players logged on? Probably not, but so what. You're admitting that fresh characters have little to do -- saying it's a problem. How is that not an SP issue? The anomalies are designed to provide payment from a rookie ship through capitals. Why edit the result of a problem and not its cause (them having nothing relevant to do)? This scales.. through PvP, diversity of options, and exactly what content makes it to the veterans -- SP reduces all of that. There's no evidence that it provides more than it takes away, content being the crux.
Because the content can also be adjusted for lower SP pilots.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dave Stark
7581
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:29:54 -
[2720] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:In what EvE universe do you play in that gives you the option to build the perfect toon now, in ours with the bazaar is doesnt but you keep on harping on its the same. If i give you a list now of something i want you create it for me and ill turn over everything i have to you. yes, the bazaar does. you find a character with the skills you want - and you purchase it. Like i said your full of ****, sure your not on the payroll
so if the character bazaar isn't for buying and selling characters... oh wait. it is. |
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3537
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:30:13 -
[2721] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:In what EvE universe do you play in that gives you the option to build the perfect toon now, in ours with the bazaar is doesnt but you keep on harping on its the same. If i give you a list now of something i want you create it for me and ill turn over everything i have to you. yes, the bazaar does. you find a character with the skills you want - and you purchase it.
Maybe.
Maybe you find the perfect character there, maybe you don't.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:30:43 -
[2722] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:The truth is Rise doesn't really know what he is doing when it comes to new player retention and is flailing about now with this idea in an attempt to salvage his failed opportunities idea.
I could have told him the opportunity system wouldn't work, but for some reason he has taken that failure as a green light to put in this poor system. There were a lot of good suggestions in the new player retention thread, I'd suggest going back there and getting ideas from that. There was nothing like this idea that was suggested.
This idea will not make any difference to new player retention, in fact it will most likely have a negative effect.
I do think Rise is doing this with good intention for new player retention, but the marketing guys are pushing him on with $ in their eyes. There's no reason to pretend that you have the metrics of what effects fresh subs. They have every reason to believe, through scientific research and the game's data, that the motivation to experience the game is much more powerful than anything that can come from limited SP.
Feel free to read up on intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation. These have objective commonalities that benefit game design, work ethic, and everything else that comes.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:31:31 -
[2723] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:In what EvE universe do you play in that gives you the option to build the perfect toon now, in ours with the bazaar is doesnt but you keep on harping on its the same. If i give you a list now of something i want you create it for me and ill turn over everything i have to you. yes, the bazaar does. you find a character with the skills you want - and you purchase it. Like i said your full of ****, sure your not on the payroll so if the character bazaar isn't for buying and selling characters... oh wait. it is.
No i said a perfect toon with a skillset of my choice, you just refered me back to the bazaar, like i said before your like a broken record who cannot see what is happening here. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:33:05 -
[2724] - Quote
Morihei Akachi wrote:Dave Stark wrote:GǪ serves no purpose GǪ But it could. It could be genuinely fun to do, so that people like doing it for its own sake. That would make it relevant and interesting. ItGÇÖs a game after all. You want to be having fun. So make the things people can do at lower skill levels genuinely fun, so that they donGÇÖt feel this apparently overwhelming need to fork out extra cash in order to skip them. Unfortunately, that doesnGÇÖt seem to be the strategy that CCP are going to follow. Low level missions are supposed to make the game seem great? What about that they would still check for their processing efficiency on the market, and how awful it is? What about their PvP stats on EFT vs Lvl Vs? It's obvious that a decent percentage of characters roam around with that level of skills -- how wouldn't it effect their experience? They feel like flying big ships. There's no reason to prevent that, is there?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Dave Stark
7581
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:33:43 -
[2725] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:In what EvE universe do you play in that gives you the option to build the perfect toon now, in ours with the bazaar is doesnt but you keep on harping on its the same. If i give you a list now of something i want you create it for me and ill turn over everything i have to you. yes, the bazaar does. you find a character with the skills you want - and you purchase it. Like i said your full of ****, sure your not on the payroll so if the character bazaar isn't for buying and selling characters... oh wait. it is. No i said a perfect toon with a skillset of my choice, you just refered me back to the bazaar, like i said before your like a broken record who cannot see what is happening here.
because that's the place you go to buy the skillset you want.
edit: i mean, you could go to ebay instead but don't cry to me when you get banned. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3537
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:33:57 -
[2726] - Quote
Chrome Veinss wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Talsha Talamar wrote:http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1
Just a thing I wanted to leave here:
Dave Stark187 (7,1%) Querns128 (4,8%) Don ZOLA98 (3,7%) Teckos Pech96 (3,6%)
Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda. Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. Why, and what's the alternative? Do you have any clue why the game seems an unattractive deal for fresh subs? With this, they could actually play for progression. One of the reasons I oppose this is that IMO, it will be something in favor of older players. Older players do not need a new advantage. I'll use myself as an example: 1. I have 123 million SP on this character alone. All totaled across my alts probably more than 300 million SP. 2. I belong to a NS corp with lots of other older players who can help me directly and/or indirectly in game. 3. I belong to a NS alliance with lots of older and some newer players who can help me directly and/or indirectly. 4. We belong to one of the biggest coalitions in the game which can help me directly and/or indirectly. 5. I have been in game 8 years, I have done lots of things and know quite a bit about the mechanics of the game. 6. I have billions of ISK in my wallets and even more billions in assets. Now on top of this you'll give me the ability to almost surely PLEX one account while still being able to use that account to earn even more ISK? Compared to a new player what do they have? 1, 5, and 6 are flat out No for all three. 2,3 and 4 are maybes, but probably not at least for awhile. This proposal will at best let a new player close the gap on 1 a bit. For a few select new players they might close the gap quite a bit, but most will close it by nearly trivial amounts. I can use this new mechanic much more effectively than a new player, IMO. In fact, right now I plan on it. If it goes into effect soon enough, I'll get a third AFKtar out in the anomalies, I'll keep my PI empire and have one of my alts train AWU V in perpetuity and drain of the SP to PLEX that account. Will that help new players? Maybe, but just not seeing it. Its not about "closing the gap". In fact you seem to have a very good idea of what this is actually about: Its about letting people skip a week of skill training for some isk and letting people get rid of sp they dont want or need to get some isk. That's all it is. Its effects are having a sp boosted newbie skip the terrible first month flying tackle frigates and dying 5 minutes into ops and having 3 year old 50 mill sp players like me get slightly closer to flying another of the many many ships we still cant fly.
If the newbie uses this market.
Recall, the newbie has to go spend an additional $20-40 to do this.
Will the average newbie do this? Maybe. But as I noted, the average newbie doing this means that half will not do it all or on an even more limited basis. That is how averages work...half the distribution is the right of the average, half to the left.
In fact, the average newbie might even buy something like 0.5 SP packets.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dojen Kobunra
Yakuro Dojo Group
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:34:34 -
[2727] - Quote
BAZAAR is a present fact, and it is in fact not really legal!! by strict terms of EULA
name it "CLONE BAY MATRIX" and make it legal ! so any new player may try how it feels to be a "Sansha Drone" on a legal base!
The Q is not : YES or NO !
The Q is how and when !
otherwise EVE will loose unique position to WOW and other "goldbot" games.
So final message to all the pirates and sansha lords of EVE... "Help CCP to -¦define" your -CLONE BAY MATRIX-
Creating artificial intelligence and drafting spacetime maps is not a game, its a job for the whole humanity.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3537
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:35:22 -
[2728] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
because that's the place you go to buy the skillset you want.
No, it is about buying a character who may or may not have the perfect match.
This is why the SP packets will likely have a higher price per SP than on the character bazaar.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9277
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:35:26 -
[2729] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:In what EvE universe do you play in that gives you the option to build the perfect toon now, in ours with the bazaar is doesnt but you keep on harping on its the same. If i give you a list now of something i want you create it for me and ill turn over everything i have to you. yes, the bazaar does. you find a character with the skills you want - and you purchase it. Like i said your full of ****, sure your not on the payroll so if the character bazaar isn't for buying and selling characters... oh wait. it is. No i said a perfect toon with a skillset of my choice, you just refered me back to the bazaar, like i said before your like a broken record who cannot see what is happening here. Give a list of the skills you want. Make it reasonable.
Odds are good I will find it for you in minutes. At a quarter of the price you'd pay for making one with SP packs.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Jared Khanar
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:36:23 -
[2730] - Quote
player: But your game is ******* boring to play until you have 50 mio SP or more ccp: pay me money and you haven-¦t to player: wait ... even with 50mio sp this game is boring [repeat]
A little hint: if it-¦s boring it-¦s your own fault and no money you spend will change that |
|
Dave Stark
7581
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:38:12 -
[2731] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
because that's the place you go to buy the skillset you want.
No, it is about buying a character who may or may not have the perfect match. This is why the SP packets will likely have a higher price per SP than on the character bazaar.
the reason character bazaar characters will be cheaper is because of how diminishing returns works on injecting packets.
we did this pages, and pages ago. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
204
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:39:41 -
[2732] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Moac Tor wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:I remember when they introduced the 24 hour skill queue. People went ballistic, calling it the end of EVE. Then, they went to an unlimited skill queue...and no one said anything. My point is...this new idea...whatever... No everyone was pretty much in favour of the unlimited skill que. Perhaps a couple of people didn't like it but comparing it to the backlash to this idea, the difference is like night and day. Okay, finally found the Dev Blog thread on the initial 24 hour skill queue and the first page is pretty much supportive. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=989819 There are 25 pages of posts. So, I'm going to guess nope. Most people felt the skill queue was a good idea long over due. Ok interesting. Nice find there. That was a bit before my time by a couple of months so I didn't recollect. So it seems the community is receptive to change then if the change is good.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:40:51 -
[2733] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Chrome Veinss wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:One of the reasons I oppose this is that IMO, it will be something in favor of older players. Older players do not need a new advantage.
I'll use myself as an example:
1. I have 123 million SP on this character alone. All totaled across my alts probably more than 300 million SP. 2. I belong to a NS corp with lots of other older players who can help me directly and/or indirectly in game. 3. I belong to a NS alliance with lots of older and some newer players who can help me directly and/or indirectly. 4. We belong to one of the biggest coalitions in the game which can help me directly and/or indirectly. 5. I have been in game 8 years, I have done lots of things and know quite a bit about the mechanics of the game. 6. I have billions of ISK in my wallets and even more billions in assets.
Now on top of this you'll give me the ability to almost surely PLEX one account while still being able to use that account to earn even more ISK?
Compared to a new player what do they have?
1, 5, and 6 are flat out No for all three. 2,3 and 4 are maybes, but probably not at least for awhile.
This proposal will at best let a new player close the gap on 1 a bit. For a few select new players they might close the gap quite a bit, but most will close it by nearly trivial amounts.
I can use this new mechanic much more effectively than a new player, IMO. In fact, right now I plan on it. If it goes into effect soon enough, I'll get a third AFKtar out in the anomalies, I'll keep my PI empire and have one of my alts train AWU V in perpetuity and drain of the SP to PLEX that account.
Will that help new players? Maybe, but just not seeing it. Its not about "closing the gap". In fact you seem to have a very good idea of what this is actually about: Its about letting people skip a week of skill training for some isk and letting people get rid of sp they dont want or need to get some isk. That's all it is. Its effects are having a sp boosted newbie skip the terrible first month flying tackle frigates and dying 5 minutes into ops and having 3 year old 50 mill sp players like me get slightly closer to flying another of the many many ships we still cant fly. If the newbie uses this market. Recall, the newbie has to go spend an additional $20-40 to do this. Will the average newbie do this? Maybe. But as I noted, the average newbie doing this means that half will not do it all or on an even more limited basis. That is how averages work...half the distribution is the right of the average, half to the left. In fact, the average newbie might even buy something like 0.5 SP packets. Why imply that PLEX is the only method of purchase? Probably the most-mentioned method of making ISK for newbies is sitting in a FW site, which is plenty.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
204
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:41:39 -
[2734] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:yes, the bazaar does. you find a character with the skills you want - and you purchase it. Like i said your full of ****, sure your not on the payroll so if the character bazaar isn't for buying and selling characters... oh wait. it is. No i said a perfect toon with a skillset of my choice, you just refered me back to the bazaar, like i said before your like a broken record who cannot see what is happening here. because that's the place you go to buy the skillset you want. edit: i mean, you could go to ebay instead but don't cry to me when you get banned. His point is that you can't get a perfect character from the bazaar which you will be able to do so with the neural packets.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3537
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:42:30 -
[2735] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Give a list of the skills you want. Make it reasonable. Odds are good I will find it for you in minutes. At a quarter of the price you'd pay for making one with SP packs. Mr Epeen
This is pretty much true. There are people who train alts for sale. They can be very good at it. If they think a perfect Tengu pilot is a good bet they'll set up the skill queue for a perfect tengu pilot and you are highly unlikely to find Omber Processing in that characters skill set.
However, not all characters on the bazaar are like that. You might have something off the normal path and it might be harder to find. Note Mr. Epeen said "reasonable" I'd have used something like "typical" or "what sells well".
This proposed market will let players looking for something that is atypical or does not sell well get those characters quickly. In and of itself that is generally a good thing.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3537
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:43:22 -
[2736] - Quote
Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Chrome Veinss wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:One of the reasons I oppose this is that IMO, it will be something in favor of older players. Older players do not need a new advantage.
I'll use myself as an example:
1. I have 123 million SP on this character alone. All totaled across my alts probably more than 300 million SP. 2. I belong to a NS corp with lots of other older players who can help me directly and/or indirectly in game. 3. I belong to a NS alliance with lots of older and some newer players who can help me directly and/or indirectly. 4. We belong to one of the biggest coalitions in the game which can help me directly and/or indirectly. 5. I have been in game 8 years, I have done lots of things and know quite a bit about the mechanics of the game. 6. I have billions of ISK in my wallets and even more billions in assets.
Now on top of this you'll give me the ability to almost surely PLEX one account while still being able to use that account to earn even more ISK?
Compared to a new player what do they have?
1, 5, and 6 are flat out No for all three. 2,3 and 4 are maybes, but probably not at least for awhile.
This proposal will at best let a new player close the gap on 1 a bit. For a few select new players they might close the gap quite a bit, but most will close it by nearly trivial amounts.
I can use this new mechanic much more effectively than a new player, IMO. In fact, right now I plan on it. If it goes into effect soon enough, I'll get a third AFKtar out in the anomalies, I'll keep my PI empire and have one of my alts train AWU V in perpetuity and drain of the SP to PLEX that account.
Will that help new players? Maybe, but just not seeing it. Its not about "closing the gap". In fact you seem to have a very good idea of what this is actually about: Its about letting people skip a week of skill training for some isk and letting people get rid of sp they dont want or need to get some isk. That's all it is. Its effects are having a sp boosted newbie skip the terrible first month flying tackle frigates and dying 5 minutes into ops and having 3 year old 50 mill sp players like me get slightly closer to flying another of the many many ships we still cant fly. If the newbie uses this market. Recall, the newbie has to go spend an additional $20-40 to do this. Will the average newbie do this? Maybe. But as I noted, the average newbie doing this means that half will not do it all or on an even more limited basis. That is how averages work...half the distribution is the right of the average, half to the left. In fact, the average newbie might even buy something like 0.5 SP packets. Why imply that PLEX is the only method of purchase? Probably the most-mentioned method of making ISK for newbies is sitting in a FW site, which is plenty.
Show me a newbie who has billions of ISK who did not do it via PLEX? And newbie I mean a new player, not a new character who is the alt of a long time player.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Terraj Oknatis
xX-Crusader-Xx Tactical Narcotics Team
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:45:00 -
[2737] - Quote
I usually like to write huge expositions on my blog posts with carefully thought out reasons as to why I support or do not support something. This is idea is so ******** I won't do that. Instead I will just rant.
This game is not pay to win.
If you do this I will seriously consider quitting.
Reason
Because now everyone will have lvl 5 in their favorite ships and to compete you HAVE to buy the skill point packs.
This process is ireversable. If this goes live for even one month, anyone who takes advantage, and dumps a whole load of REAL MONEY TO WIN will have the advantage
I am going to have these idiot conversations with people.
"Oh you can't fly X. WHY DONT YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"
"I can't believe you don't have XYZ to 5 WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"
"This fleet you have to have perfect skills to fly with us WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK
FU
This is not like jump changes or balance changes this is FU(@@ serious.
If you do this it will be the beginning of the end simply because i don't want to have these WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK conversations with people I will just quit
F(@#@ YOU CCP THIS IS OUTRAGOUS #(*@ #(@*@ GOD)@@)( FU
FU |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:45:53 -
[2738] - Quote
I give up, if it happens it happens ....... a fool and his money are easily parted, if your born with a silver spoon in ya gob who gives a ****. |
Dave Stark
7581
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:46:17 -
[2739] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:His point is that you can't get a perfect character from the bazaar which you will be able to do so with the neural packets.
depends what you're defining as perfect.
"i want a pilot to do X" if it does that then it's perfect.
funfact: even pilots that aren't "perfect" from the bazzar (you know, few extra sp here, few extra sp there that you don't want/need) will still be cheaper than "building your own" with packets. so you'll be paying less and getting more.
for building a character from scratch, this new proposal will be dreadfully poor ROI. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
204
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:47:23 -
[2740] - Quote
Dror wrote:Moac Tor wrote:The truth is Rise doesn't really know what he is doing when it comes to new player retention and is flailing about now with this idea in an attempt to salvage his failed opportunities idea.
I could have told him the opportunity system wouldn't work, but for some reason he has taken that failure as a green light to put in this poor system. There were a lot of good suggestions in the new player retention thread, I'd suggest going back there and getting ideas from that. There was nothing like this idea that was suggested.
This idea will not make any difference to new player retention, in fact it will most likely have a negative effect.
I do think Rise is doing this with good intention for new player retention, but the marketing guys are pushing him on with $ in their eyes. There's no reason to pretend that you have the metrics of what effects fresh subs. They have every reason to believe, through scientific research and the game's data, that the motivation to experience the game is much more powerful than anything that can come from limited SP. Feel free to read up on intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation. These have objective commonalities that benefit game design, work ethic, and everything else that comes. Their scientific research and game data hasn't helped them so far. Have you followed the failure which is the opportunities system at all? I wouldn't be so dismissive of common sense opinions from eve players, graphs and statistics can only ever be of limited use.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
|
Dave Stark
7581
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:48:05 -
[2741] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Show me a newbie who has billions of ISK who did not do it via PLEX? And newbie I mean a new player, not a new character who is the alt of a long time player.
pretty much anyone who joined the game to scam people, and did so. |
Dave Stark
7581
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:49:13 -
[2742] - Quote
Terraj Oknatis wrote:I usually like to write huge expositions on my blog posts with carefully thought out reasons as to why I support or do not support something. This is idea is so ******** I won't do that. Instead I will just rant.
This game is not pay to win.
If you do this I will seriously consider quitting.
Reason
Because now everyone will have lvl 5 in their favorite ships and to compete you HAVE to buy the skill point packs.
This process is ireversable. If this goes live for even one month, anyone who takes advantage, and dumps a whole load of REAL MONEY TO WIN will have the advantage
I am going to have these idiot conversations with people.
"Oh you can't fly X. WHY DONT YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"
"I can't believe you don't have XYZ to 5 WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"
"This fleet you have to have perfect skills to fly with us WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK
FU
This is not like jump changes or balance changes this is FU(@@ serious.
If you do this it will be the beginning of the end simply because i don't want to have these WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK conversations with people I will just quit
F(@#@ YOU CCP THIS IS OUTRAGOUS #(*@ #(@*@ GOD)@@)( FU
FU
replace "why don't you just buy a skill pack" with "why don't you just buy a character".
welcome to eve today. |
Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:49:28 -
[2743] - Quote
While I always have been an advocate of supporting new capsuleers skill point wise ...
... it seems to me that EVE is loosing its core when SP can be bought without limits. There is a thin line between empowering starters and letting moneysacks powerbuy up their hollow scarecrow characters limitless. And I got the feeling that you are about to cross it, CCP.
I am tracing my MMO roots to one of the the original "big three" of the nineties. Buying a character for AFK currency would make anyone an outcast at this stage. I do acknowledge the necessity for the Character Bazaar to exist, regarding black market activity in an age where many kids seem down with setting up an Alliance Tournament. But making an argument out of this sour fact is just as wrong as arguing from a market perspective. This is not about any data. It is about the very soul of EVE Online.
Ripard Teg's plea should make you think, CCP. And I know just why. SP make up a few percent of any result in EVE only, with soft skills and ISK being the actual winners. Take these few percent away from us vets, and we got nothing. Except stories about GÇ£walking to school in the snow, uphill, both waysGÇ¥. Adapt GÇ£to the new and emerging needs of the environmentGÇ¥? Definitely. Disregarding the ones who made you what you are today as GÇ£obsoleteGÇ¥, as Set's Chaos so eloquently put it on TMC? I do not think so.
Last time that GÇ£greed was goodGÇ¥, the information was leaked. This time it was posted. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9278
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:49:53 -
[2744] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Moac Tor wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:I remember when they introduced the 24 hour skill queue. People went ballistic, calling it the end of EVE. Then, they went to an unlimited skill queue...and no one said anything. My point is...this new idea...whatever... No everyone was pretty much in favour of the unlimited skill que. Perhaps a couple of people didn't like it but comparing it to the backlash to this idea, the difference is like night and day. Okay, finally found the Dev Blog thread on the initial 24 hour skill queue and the first page is pretty much supportive. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=989819 There are 25 pages of posts. So, I'm going to guess nope. Most people felt the skill queue was a good idea long over due. For EVE that thread was a success. It made it a whole five pages before the whining started.
Anything to do with changing training has been met with a lot of opposition since way back. People get angry, then sad, then grudgingly accept it. Eventually they come to the point where they wonder how they ever lived without it.
I feel it will be the same with this.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3537
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:50:19 -
[2745] - Quote
Terraj Oknatis wrote:I usually like to write huge expositions on my blog posts with carefully thought out reasons as to why I support or do not support something. This is idea is so ******** I won't do that. Instead I will just rant.
This game is not pay to win.
If you do this I will seriously consider quitting.
Reason
Because now everyone will have lvl 5 in their favorite ships and to compete you HAVE to buy the skill point packs.
This process is ireversable. If this goes live for even one month, anyone who takes advantage, and dumps a whole load of REAL MONEY TO WIN will have the advantage
I am going to have these idiot conversations with people.
"Oh you can't fly X. WHY DONT YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"
"I can't believe you don't have XYZ to 5 WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"
"This fleet you have to have perfect skills to fly with us WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK
FU
This is not like jump changes or balance changes this is FU(@@ serious.
If you do this it will be the beginning of the end simply because i don't want to have these WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK conversations with people I will just quit
F(@#@ YOU CCP THIS IS OUTRAGOUS #(*@ #(@*@ GOD)@@)( FU
FU
I doubt this will happen. The reason is simple, no reasonable FC is going to say that. They are not that stupid...or if they are they wont be an FC for long.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dave Stark
7581
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:51:57 -
[2746] - Quote
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:it seems to me that EVE is loosing its core when SP can be bought without limits.
good job that's not the case, then. |
Terraj Oknatis
xX-Crusader-Xx Tactical Narcotics Team
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:52:22 -
[2747] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Terraj Oknatis wrote:I usually like to write huge expositions on my blog posts with carefully thought out reasons as to why I support or do not support something. This is idea is so ******** I won't do that. Instead I will just rant.
This game is not pay to win.
If you do this I will seriously consider quitting.
Reason
Because now everyone will have lvl 5 in their favorite ships and to compete you HAVE to buy the skill point packs.
This process is ireversable. If this goes live for even one month, anyone who takes advantage, and dumps a whole load of REAL MONEY TO WIN will have the advantage
I am going to have these idiot conversations with people.
"Oh you can't fly X. WHY DONT YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"
"I can't believe you don't have XYZ to 5 WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"
"This fleet you have to have perfect skills to fly with us WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK
FU
This is not like jump changes or balance changes this is FU(@@ serious.
If you do this it will be the beginning of the end simply because i don't want to have these WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK conversations with people I will just quit
F(@#@ YOU CCP THIS IS OUTRAGOUS #(*@ #(@*@ GOD)@@)( FU
FU replace "why don't you just buy a skill pack" with "why don't you just buy a character". welcome to eve today.
you can't buy a character (technically) with real money. You will be able to BUY A SKILL PACK with real money.
|
Nindae
AquariusArt AquariusArt Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:54:09 -
[2748] - Quote
As many people before me said, pay-to-win comes to EVE with this idea. And for more, last remnants of possible role play will go to hell as well with that. As is written in devblog, history of a character is lost, but it is not an advantage, it destroys the very soul of EVE, where the reputation of your character mean a lot. Are you cheater and thief? No problem, suck out SP, delete old char and create new one and twink it up with stolen money and start again. If I want to deal with idiotic kiddy twinks with rich parents, I can go play WoW. And when you for example did a decision to choose miner path and now you want to be explorer? Good, but behave like adult and just skill up for the new path without this SP sucking absurdity. Like in real life. Current SP system makes EVE special, as EVE is the only true virtual world and one of last true online RPGs, where your virtual life means something. Please do not destroy it with this stupidity, do not alter EVE into another idiotic F2P pay-to-win trash, where spoiled brats destroy gameplay of the others with money of their parents. Because that would be an end of EVE. |
Terraj Oknatis
xX-Crusader-Xx Tactical Narcotics Team
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:54:17 -
[2749] - Quote
Techos
I am still going to have these conversations with ppl.
Maybe fleet level they wouldn't say that but In normal conversations with people on ts This is going to come up.
Its cheating.
Its pay to win.
Its garbage. |
Dave Stark
7581
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:54:17 -
[2750] - Quote
Terraj Oknatis wrote:you can't buy a character (technically) with real money. You will be able to BUY A SKILL PACK with real money.
no, you won't be able to buy a skill pack with real money. they must be purchased from the market (or another player directly) as the SP must be extracted from a character. they do not appear from thin air. |
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9278
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:55:43 -
[2751] - Quote
Terraj Oknatis wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Terraj Oknatis wrote:I usually like to write huge expositions on my blog posts with carefully thought out reasons as to why I support or do not support something. This is idea is so ******** I won't do that. Instead I will just rant.
This game is not pay to win.
If you do this I will seriously consider quitting.
Reason
Because now everyone will have lvl 5 in their favorite ships and to compete you HAVE to buy the skill point packs.
This process is ireversable. If this goes live for even one month, anyone who takes advantage, and dumps a whole load of REAL MONEY TO WIN will have the advantage
I am going to have these idiot conversations with people.
"Oh you can't fly X. WHY DONT YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"
"I can't believe you don't have XYZ to 5 WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"
"This fleet you have to have perfect skills to fly with us WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK
FU
This is not like jump changes or balance changes this is FU(@@ serious.
If you do this it will be the beginning of the end simply because i don't want to have these WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK conversations with people I will just quit
F(@#@ YOU CCP THIS IS OUTRAGOUS #(*@ #(@*@ GOD)@@)( FU
FU replace "why don't you just buy a skill pack" with "why don't you just buy a character". welcome to eve today. you can't buy a character (technically) with real money. You will be able to BUY A SKILL PACK with real money. Seriously?
Credit Card -PLEX- ISK- New character.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Terraj Oknatis
xX-Crusader-Xx Tactical Narcotics Team
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:58:33 -
[2752] - Quote
Nindae wrote:As many people before me said, pay-to-win comes to EVE with this idea. And for more, last remnants of possible role play will go to hell as well with that. As is written in devblog, history of a character is lost, but it is not an advantage, it destroys the very soul of EVE, where the reputation of your character mean a lot. Are you cheater and thief? No problem, suck out SP, delete old char and create new one and twink it up with stolen money and start again. If I want to deal with idiotic kiddy twinks with rich parents, I can go play WoW. And when you for example did a decision to choose miner path and now you want to be explorer? Good, but behave like adult and just skill up for the new path without this SP sucking absurdity. Like in real life, current SP system makes EVE special, as EVE is the only true virtual world and one of last true online RPGs, where your virtual life means something. Please do not destroy it with this stupidity, do not alter EVE into another idiotic F2P pay-to-win trash, where spoiled brats destroy gameplay of the others with money of their parents. Because that would be an end of EVE.
See I like this quote because it makes alot of sense.
Your reputation can add value to your character, and anyone who buys characters can run the risk of having that character have a poor reputation.
The only way to salvage this devblog post is to ether throw it in the bin or have it so that the market will support character trading for isk only.
You started your dev blog with bazzar and character trading, and you jumped to skill point purchase with aurm. That sounds like a load of bullshit to me.
I know what this is. This is a cash grab off a sinking ship and it stinks to high heaven.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3537
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:59:25 -
[2753] - Quote
Terraj Oknatis wrote:Techos
I am still going to have these conversations with ppl.
Maybe fleet level they wouldn't say that but In normal conversations with people on ts This is going to come up.
Its cheating.
Its pay to win.
Its garbage.
It is no more cheating than the character bazaar and PLEX, IMO.
In fact, I don't think most new player will use it. It will be used by older players to crap out specialized alts they'll use to their benefit....which is one reason I don't support it.
And I think only new players will ask you that question, and well be gentle (in your conversation, blast them in game of course)...they are new and we need them.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Jared Khanar
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:00:02 -
[2754] - Quote
Nindae wrote:As many people before me said, pay-to-win comes to EVE with this idea. And for more, last remnants of possible role play will go to hell as well with that. As is written in devblog, history of a character is lost, but it is not an advantage, it destroys the very soul of EVE, where the reputation of your character mean a lot. Are you cheater and thief? No problem, suck out SP, delete old char and create new one and twink it up with stolen money and start again. If I want to deal with idiotic kiddy twinks with rich parents, I can go play WoW. And when you for example did a decision to choose miner path and now you want to be explorer? Good, but behave like adult and just skill up for the new path without this SP sucking absurdity. Like in real life. Current SP system makes EVE special, as EVE is the only true virtual world and one of last true online RPGs, where your virtual life means something. Please do not destroy it with this stupidity, do not alter EVE into another idiotic F2P pay-to-win trash, where spoiled brats destroy gameplay of the others with money of their parents. Because that would be an end of EVE.
Well maybe it-¦s seems like a good idea to some, letting a baby drive a car (because the money - and we need to sell cars). It doesn-¦t matter that it should learn to walk and talk and all that stuff instead (there is no teacher anyway because... everyone is producing ... cars !?). And ofcourse think of the political incorrectness if you deny a baby that pleasure. All these car driving one-¦s are clearly only worried about their status, if they don-¦t chear over this. Also this will boost our entire economy. More doctors are needed, more oil, more everything for everyone ^^ |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3537
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:00:40 -
[2755] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Credit Card -PLEX- ISK- New character. Mr Epeen
And this is largely how it will work with SP packets.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:01:45 -
[2756] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:it seems to me that EVE is loosing its core when SP can be bought without limits. good job that's not the case, then.
CCP Stark you have info you'd like to share with us ?? |
Terraj Oknatis
xX-Crusader-Xx Tactical Narcotics Team
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:03:20 -
[2757] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Credit Card -PLEX- ISK- New character. Mr Epeen And this is largely how it will work with SP packets.
The Bazzar is not technically supported by CCP.
This is
This goes credit card- add skill points to current character
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3537
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:04:19 -
[2758] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:it seems to me that EVE is loosing its core when SP can be bought without limits. good job that's not the case, then. CCP Stark you have info you'd like to share with us ??
The amount of SP in the game is fixed. Sum up all the SP for every character and subtract total number of characters * 5,000,000 and that is the total amount of SP that could theoretically end up on the market.
Any SP on the market has to be extracted from an existing character.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:04:21 -
[2759] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Talsha Talamar wrote:http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1
Just a thing I wanted to leave here:
Dave Stark187 (7,1%) Querns128 (4,8%) Don ZOLA98 (3,7%) Teckos Pech96 (3,6%)
Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda. Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis.
Agreed ;D It was not much of an analysis though, I just checked eve-search and took everyone who was above 50 posts at that time ;)
Cheers
P.S.: Also.. do not be to hard to yourself calling you a Kerry. Its a game after all ;) |
Dave Stark
7582
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:04:38 -
[2760] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:it seems to me that EVE is loosing its core when SP can be bought without limits. good job that's not the case, then. CCP Stark you have info you'd like to share with us ??
yeah - it's all in the devblog so i'm not breaking the NDA i'm under by being a ccp employee (disclaimer before i get banned for impersonating people at ccp: i don't actually work there.)
the super secret info is that SP must be extracted from a character to be sold. that means there's a finite number of SP which means we have limit on how much SP can be bought.
you know, if you'd have read the devblog maybe i wouldn't have to explain these things to you people and i wouldn't have more posts in this thread than anyone else.
it helps to read a devblog BEFORE you come to the thread to discuss it. |
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3537
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:06:00 -
[2761] - Quote
Terraj Oknatis wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Credit Card -PLEX- ISK- New character. Mr Epeen And this is largely how it will work with SP packets. The Bazzar is not technically supported by CCP. This is This goes credit card- add skill points to current character
The bazaar is on their forums and they control the transfer process, they may have never explicitly said we support it, but given the years they've facilitated it, I think they support it.
It makes sense as it cuts the legs out of the illegal character market...in the end, even though it is a form of RMT, broadly speaking, and even, again broadly speaking, a form of pay to win, it is a good thing. A necessary evil, IMO.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9281
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:07:59 -
[2762] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Credit Card -PLEX- ISK- New character. Mr Epeen And this is largely how it will work with SP packets.
Which is why I don't see it as a big thing. It's already happening. The people who are doing it will keep doing it either by character purchase or SP pack. Those that are not now regularly buying characters are unlikely to suddenly start dropping RL cash on SP packs (once the initial rush is over).
That's all I've been saying this whole time. T'aint no big ting.
The people inclined to buy SP will now have two options and the people not so inclined will continue to not buy characters or SP packs.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Jared Khanar
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:09:07 -
[2763] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: The bazaar is on their forums and they control the transfer process, they may have never explicitly said we support it, but given the years they've facilitated it, I think they support it.
You need to pay plex to transfer a character. It-¦s a bit strange to not support something on one hand, and get payed for it on the other. If they indeed do not support this, how nice they have been to implement a way to transfer payment to them, anyway. This has clearly been a selfless present for their community. |
Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:09:23 -
[2764] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:it seems to me that EVE is loosing its core when SP can be bought without limits. good job that's not the case, then. CCP Stark you have info you'd like to share with us ?? yeah - it's all in the devblog so i'm not breaking the NDA i'm under by being a ccp employee (disclaimer before i get banned for impersonating people at ccp: i don't actually work there.) the super secret info is that SP must be extracted from a character to be sold. that means there's a finite number of SP which means we have limit on how much SP can be bought. you know, if you'd have read the devblog maybe i wouldn't have to explain these things to you people and i wouldn't have more posts in this thread than anyone else. it helps to read a devblog BEFORE you come to the thread to discuss it.
Dave, please show us where my argument is contradicting the devblog. If you can.
Last time that GÇ£greed was good, the information was leaked. This time it was posted.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:09:29 -
[2765] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:it seems to me that EVE is loosing its core when SP can be bought without limits. good job that's not the case, then. CCP Stark you have info you'd like to share with us ?? yeah - it's all in the devblog so i'm not breaking the NDA i'm under by being a ccp employee (disclaimer before i get banned for impersonating people at ccp: i don't actually work there.) the super secret info is that SP must be extracted from a character to be sold. that means there's a finite number of SP which means we have limit on how much SP can be bought. you know, if you'd have read the devblog maybe i wouldn't have to explain these things to you people and i wouldn't have more posts in this thread than anyone else. it helps to read a devblog BEFORE you come to the thread to discuss it.
Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now, just in case your a TL;DR |
Dave Stark
7582
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:10:04 -
[2766] - Quote
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:it seems to me that EVE is loosing its core when SP can be bought without limits. good job that's not the case, then. CCP Stark you have info you'd like to share with us ?? yeah - it's all in the devblog so i'm not breaking the NDA i'm under by being a ccp employee (disclaimer before i get banned for impersonating people at ccp: i don't actually work there.) the super secret info is that SP must be extracted from a character to be sold. that means there's a finite number of SP which means we have limit on how much SP can be bought. you know, if you'd have read the devblog maybe i wouldn't have to explain these things to you people and i wouldn't have more posts in this thread than anyone else. it helps to read a devblog BEFORE you come to the thread to discuss it. Dave, please show us where my argument is contradicting the devblog. If you can.
the bold bit. |
Torrent Talon
Partial Guidance
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:10:49 -
[2767] - Quote
CCP,
If you need to fund your company with these shoddy tactics you really need to look at the root of the problem you're having, which is game design, have you not noticed since hiring fozzie and rise and other unmentioned devs that your game has been going downhill?
EvE was growing throughout its life until a few years ago when you decided to sway into the instant gratification gameplay of most MMO which EvE isn't designed for, if you want to see your game last, give us tools not gimmicks, expand the sandbox, don't squander it.
Listen to your playerbase, i know you think because you are literally the only game with this type of play style that people will just bend to your whims, if you continue they will, but enough people will quit playing to cause you serious problems.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3538
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:11:11 -
[2768] - Quote
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:it seems to me that EVE is loosing its core when SP can be bought without limits. good job that's not the case, then. CCP Stark you have info you'd like to share with us ?? yeah - it's all in the devblog so i'm not breaking the NDA i'm under by being a ccp employee (disclaimer before i get banned for impersonating people at ccp: i don't actually work there.) the super secret info is that SP must be extracted from a character to be sold. that means there's a finite number of SP which means we have limit on how much SP can be bought. you know, if you'd have read the devblog maybe i wouldn't have to explain these things to you people and i wouldn't have more posts in this thread than anyone else. it helps to read a devblog BEFORE you come to the thread to discuss it. Dave, please show us where my argument is contradicting the devblog. If you can.
There will be limited amount on the market. This is about as close to a fact as we can get in this thread.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Jasmine Heap
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:12:11 -
[2769] - Quote
Just reading about these proposed changes and I am very much against them. For many people, like myself, I kept a long subscription going, at my expense, in order to skill into certain ships. That time cost me both money in sub fees and heroic levels of PATIENCE.
Now you are essentially saying that anyone can take the sub fees it would normally take to skill into a ship and, instead of paying those fees and waiting it out, he/she can just buy the SP directly. That undermines every other player who both paid the sub fees and waited the real time to skill into the ships.
If you won't value my TIME as much as you value my MONEY, I won't value your game.
If you proceed with this monumentally bad idea, and I hope that you won't, please make sure none of these purchasable skill points can be allocated toward anything higher than LEVEL 4 of any skill. Everyone should suffer equally the indignity of having to wait the same amount of time to skill anything to LEVEL 5. |
T1K1
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:13:34 -
[2770] - Quote
Terraj Oknatis wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Credit Card -PLEX- ISK- New character. Mr Epeen And this is largely how it will work with SP packets. The Bazzar is not technically supported by CCP. This is This goes credit card- add skill points to current character
The bazaar is supported by CCP, if someone tries to scam you, they'll step in and handle the situation.
"Character trade scams are strictly forbidden and lead to immediate permanent bans when found." posted by CCP Falcon |
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:14:51 -
[2771] - Quote
Jasmine Heap wrote:If you won't value my TIME as much as you value my MONEY, I won't value your game. "Value my time" by making me wait for months to get SP.
#justEVEthings. |
Kayden Katelo
Mythic Heights
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:14:57 -
[2772] - Quote
CCP, if you really need the money, how about porting Dust to the PC? |
Dave Stark
7582
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:15:01 -
[2773] - Quote
Jasmine Heap wrote:Just reading about these proposed changes and I am very much against them. For many people, like myself, I kept a long subscription going, at my expense, in order to skill into certain ships. That time cost me both money in sub fees and heroic levels of PATIENCE.
Now you are essentially saying that anyone can take the sub fees it would normally take to skill into a ship and, instead of paying those fees and waiting it out, he/she can just buy the SP directly. That undermines every other player who both paid the sub fees and waited the real time to skill into the ships.
If you won't value my TIME as much as you value my MONEY, I won't value your game.
If you proceed with this monumentally bad idea, and I hope that you won't, please make sure none of these purchasable skill points can be allocated toward anything higher than LEVEL 4 of any skill. Everyone should suffer equally the indignity of having to wait the same amount of time to skill anything to LEVEL 5.
then why didn't you quit when the characer bazaar opened? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3541
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:18:32 -
[2774] - Quote
Jasmine Heap wrote:Just reading about these proposed changes and I am very much against them. For many people, like myself, I kept a long subscription going, at my expense, in order to skill into certain ships. That time cost me both money in sub fees and heroic levels of PATIENCE.
And it will cost money for a new player to get to the same level. In fact, depending on the amount of SP, quite a bit more RL money.
For example, based on your age I am going to conclude you have 37 million SP.
For a new character to "catch up" he will need to buy 65,250,000 worth SP, or 130 SP packets. SP packets will likely cost 300,000,000 at a minimum. Those 130 SP correspond to 39 billion ISK.*
A character with 37 million SP will likely cost you 18-20 billion in the character bazaar.
*Assuming I did the math right.
Oh and to translate that ISK into RL money $650. If you are paying monthly, you paid $360 and had to wait to train those skills over time.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Mag's
the united
20538
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:21:18 -
[2775] - Quote
BrundleMeth wrote:I remember when they introduced the 24 hour skill queue. People went ballistic, calling it the end of EVE. Then, they went to an unlimited skill queue...and no one said anything. My point is...this new idea...whatever... Another poster wishing to rewrite history. Please, do carry on.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Jared Khanar
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:22:18 -
[2776] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: And it will cost money for a new player to get to the same level. In fact, depending on the amount of SP, quite a bit more RL money.
CCP shows a history of pushing more and more into cheap features that they want to get extra payment for. Ship skins made of simple textures a good artist does in minutes / maybe half an hour, multiple character training, many more things and now this...
Does this not concern you if you take a look into the future, following this path? If ccp gets away with this, what is going to happen next time? They tried this over and over in the past - sometimes they succeeded, sometimes the community won. But they try harder and harder. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3541
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:23:46 -
[2777] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: And it will cost money for a new player to get to the same level. In fact, depending on the amount of SP, quite a bit more RL money.
CCP shows a history of pushing more and more into cheap features that they want to get payed for. Ship skins made of simple textures a good artist does in minutes / maybe half an hour, multiple character training, many more things and now this... Does this not concern you if you take a look into the future, following this path? If ccp gets away with this, what is going to happen next time? They tried this over and over in the past - sometimes they succeeded, sometimes the community won. But they try harder and harder.
I'm actually opposed to the idea, but many of these responses are largely based on ignorance.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:29:59 -
[2778] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
the bold bit.
The only bold thing would be rhetoric instead of dialectic. I would like to read your argument.
Last time that GÇ£greed was good, the information was leaked. This time it was posted.
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Dave Stark
7582
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:31:43 -
[2779] - Quote
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
the bold bit.
The only bold thing would be rhetoric instead of dialectic. I would like to read your argument.
then do so, it's clearly stated here. |
Terraj Oknatis
xX-Crusader-Xx Tactical Narcotics Team
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:32:42 -
[2780] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: And it will cost money for a new player to get to the same level. In fact, depending on the amount of SP, quite a bit more RL money.
CCP shows a history of pushing more and more into cheap features that they want to get payed for. Ship skins made of simple textures a good artist does in minutes / maybe half an hour, multiple character training, many more things and now this... Does this not concern you if you take a look into the future, following this path? If ccp gets away with this, what is going to happen next time? They tried this over and over in the past - sometimes they succeeded, sometimes the community won. But they try harder and harder. I'm actually opposed to the idea, but many of these responses are largely based on ignorance.
Its going to get harder and harder to become blissfully ignorant.
I have tried really hard to ignore the bizzar. Since it is on the forums and out of the client I have been able to do this.
This is going to be hard to ignore.
This is not character trading this is adding skill points to your main.
Therefore now you will be looked down upon if you don't have X number of skill points when everyone else will have X number of skill points.
AFK farming of skill points will probably become a thing. I guarantee you it will be possible, and someone will figure out that you can have a bunch of alts training skill points, gut them, repackage their skill points into packs and sell those. And support all of this with plex bought with isk. I think this will actually add to the total skill points in the game. There is one exploit right there. CCP doesn't like bottling? Well you don't even need to be a bot you don't even need to play to win. Just sit on alts who are training skill points.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3544
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:33:04 -
[2781] - Quote
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
the bold bit.
The only bold thing would be rhetoric instead of dialectic. I would like to read your argument.
He was referring the claim about infinite amounts of SP? That part is not going to happen. Not with this proposal.
Again, if you oppose this idea, like I do, make a sensible argument, not just a rage post.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Jasmine Heap
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:35:54 -
[2782] - Quote
I've always viewed the character bazaar as something that not many people were involved in. Perhaps I am wrong about that. I never used it myself. My fear with these changes is that it will mainstream and popularize the easy acquisition of SP. Look, perhaps my fears are unfounded, but I know how I *feel* about these changes. My gut says this is the wrong thing to do. I suppose there is a real structural problem with the "uncloseable gap" between players with hundreds of SP and new players, but simply allowing that gap to be closed on existing toons with isk/aurum/plex/money just feels wrong |
Jared Khanar
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:36:24 -
[2783] - Quote
Terraj Oknatis wrote: AFK farming of skill points will probably become a thing. I guarantee you it will be possible, and someone will figure out that you can have a bunch of alts training skill points, gut them, repackage their skill points into packs and sell those. And support all of this with plex bought with isk. I think this will actually add to the total skill points in the game. There is one exploit right there. CCP doesn't like bottling? Well you don't even need to be a bot you don't even need to play to win. Just sit on alts who are training skill points.
Just think of all these cyno alts and so on some alliances have. they are payed, not training anything ... last fanfest they have shown numbers on this (which group has most alts) if i remember correct. I wouldn-¦t wonder if some, supporting this feature, are connected to these.
Guess who-¦s going to profit? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3544
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:36:40 -
[2784] - Quote
Terraj Oknatis wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: And it will cost money for a new player to get to the same level. In fact, depending on the amount of SP, quite a bit more RL money.
CCP shows a history of pushing more and more into cheap features that they want to get payed for. Ship skins made of simple textures a good artist does in minutes / maybe half an hour, multiple character training, many more things and now this... Does this not concern you if you take a look into the future, following this path? If ccp gets away with this, what is going to happen next time? They tried this over and over in the past - sometimes they succeeded, sometimes the community won. But they try harder and harder. I'm actually opposed to the idea, but many of these responses are largely based on ignorance. Its going to get harder and harder to become blissfully ignorant. I have tried really hard to ignore the bizzar. Since it is on the forums and out of the client I have been able to do this. This is going to be hard to ignore. This is not character trading this is adding skill points to your main. Therefore now you will be looked down upon if you don't have X number of skill points when everyone else will have X number of skill points. AFK farming of skill points will probably become a thing. I guarantee you it will be possible, and someone will figure out that you can have a bunch of alts training skill points, gut them, repackage their skill points into packs and sell those. And support all of this with plex bought with isk. I think this will actually add to the total skill points in the game. There is one exploit right there. CCP doesn't like bottling? Well you don't even need to be a bot you don't even need to play to win. Just sit on alts who are training skill points.
I doubt too many players older than say, 3 months will be using this extensively for their mains as the amount of SP added will be small.
For example, if I were to take a 500,000 SP packet and add it to my main, I'd only get 50,000 SP to allocate. To add 1,000,000 SP I'd have to buy 10,000,000 SP (i.e. 20 SP packets)!
What I would do is set up an alt perpetually training AWU V and draining those SP and using the resulting ISK to PLEX that account. I'd use all the alts on that account to do PI, and I'd buy enough SP to get a third AFKtar pilot in the anomalies.
Which is why I oppose this, it will be a substantial benefit to me, to new players I'm not so sure.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3544
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:37:47 -
[2785] - Quote
Jasmine Heap wrote:I've always viewed the character bazaar as something that not many people were involved in. Perhaps I am wrong about that. I never used it myself. My fear with these changes is that it will mainstream and popularize the easy acquisition of SP. Look, perhaps my fears are unfounded, but I know how I *feel* about these changes. My gut says this is the wrong thing to do. I suppose there is a real structural problem with the "uncloseable gap" between players with hundreds of SP and new players, but simply allowing that gap to be closed on existing toons with isk/aurum/plex/money just feels wrong
According to the dev blog on average about 70 characters are traded each month.
Not sure if you consider that alot or not.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dave Stark
7582
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:39:41 -
[2786] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Jasmine Heap wrote:I've always viewed the character bazaar as something that not many people were involved in. Perhaps I am wrong about that. I never used it myself. My fear with these changes is that it will mainstream and popularize the easy acquisition of SP. Look, perhaps my fears are unfounded, but I know how I *feel* about these changes. My gut says this is the wrong thing to do. I suppose there is a real structural problem with the "uncloseable gap" between players with hundreds of SP and new players, but simply allowing that gap to be closed on existing toons with isk/aurum/plex/money just feels wrong According to the dev blog on average about 70 characters are traded each month. Not sure if you consider that alot or not.
"as evidenced by the 70 or so character transfers that happen every day,"
70 per day, not month :)
~25550 per year. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
80
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:43:07 -
[2787] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Until someone counters them with some reasonable explanation I will stand by the fact that this is easily the worst decision ever since it will change fundamentals of the game for unknown expectations without helping more than minor percent of the players.
this is one for when you get back then, Don. let's start at the beginning. What fundamentals are being changed? buying/selling SP? no. we're already doing that with the character bazaar. bypassing the skill training system? no. we're already doing that with the charcter bazaar. "now we can get characters with 400m sp" - so what problem does that cause?
Buckle up Doroty, WOTs incoming.
You can start of by reading (again or for the first time) my first two posts which mention a lot of issues: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=450912&p=31 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6101499#post6101499
That SP on a character is obtained only through training. You do not buy SP, you buy characters developed by someone else with all the benefits/flaws that might come with them. They can indeed be with higher sp but still they are not being added to your original char.
Simple funny simulation of what you are trying to justify: I fly Apoc and I have purchased Avatar, so I can buy more dmg/tank. I want an option to stack up avatar on apoc. And than two avatars on each other. Etc etc. I have the money and it will make things happen faster for me, I will accomplish my aims (killing my enemies) faster. And it can be done for any ship class/role. So in that way, people who are willing to spend more money should get more dmg.
Training system has not been bypassed by the character bazaar as someone HAD to train those chars. Does he sell it or not is not related to that, those characters did not bypass training system. And you are buying them, not their SP. So you are not bypassing it either, since your original character will remain where it is.
400mil sp creates a problem on customer-service relation. As people invested years of time, effort and money to be top1 in total skills, by allowing someone to buy that "title" for himself voids those efforts. Since efforts and time are quite important for anyone who wants to make some impact on the game, you are basically sending them message that their efforts are worth sh*t to you, only those who give more money are valuable customers. I can understand that you do not care about it, but not everyone in the eve has same goals, so you cannot just look through your own POV but get a wider picture.
Another thing related to that issue is consistency. As EVE is a game which takes player to commit with efforts and time to get somewhere in the long run, by being inconsistent you are sending him a message that he cannot be certain that the path he is taking or any other path is correct one as anything can be altered. That means people will not be willing to commit fully to the game as they cannot be sure what next thing is going to be changed, in what direction and how will it affect them. People with long terms goals need to feel secure to go ahead with them so they need to lean on the service provider. If service provides can change any of the game fundamentals which are consider "sacred" that means there is no warranty that other fundamental things which are important for some player will not be changed.
Additional thing to take in consideration is the number of ship spinners. There are people who are subscribed and are logging in just because of the habit. They do not play much, mostly just chat and idle and even themselves cannot answer why they do not quit the game. Either because they are just bored with the game or not liking where the game is now or where it is heading/ With changing something important like this you can touch the nerve and get them to say "that`s it, screw you guys im out for real now".
Once again I will mention that something like this will not benefit many. ~1% of total players maybe. Let`s say that it is even 5% which would be highly exaggerated. You are changing fundamentals of your multi million dollars business, which will surely have impact on player base and without even being sure of the gain. Ie you know that you will have short term boom when it is implemented and older players fix their mistakes and after that the run rate will drop quite a lot. And potentially lost players could be much more than that. Not to mention that they will not just quit, hey will be unhappy customers who can spread the -buzz and stop some of potentially new players. And we can see by the shrinking player base that all those people who writes "i will quit because of this" obviously does it. So those are not empty threats.
In the end, one of the key mistakes being done here is not having "behavioralistic" understanding of their own players and their own game. Since I am limited with the number of the characters here I will make another post.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
80
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:43:57 -
[2788] - Quote
To be able to understand where we are going to, we firstly need to be aware where we are coming from. This is crucial for CCP as well :)
Eve did not become what it is by being easy, simple to understand game for everyone. Being niche game since the start, with a lot of unique features it also differentiated from the other MMORPGs by being very harsh. Only game for a long time where you can actually lose everything you worked on for months. The mistakes were expensive. Be it loss of isk, sp, trust etc.
There were always a lot of new players coming to it, but majority did not stick. They were not "strong" enough. Eve was elitist game, challenge which most of casual, average players could not accept. By not being simple to understand it also demanded players who could actually think and understand, making it mostly kids free, the community was way better than other MMORPGs. So only those who felt they are ready for that challenge would actually stay and fight. In space no one can hear you scream...
As such game, it developed itself and grew on marketing which pointed that out. People were not coming after reading that someone mined yearly record of arkanor (okay maybe some did even for that :D) but majority came when they read that Istvaan Shogaatsu and GHSC made impressive scam, that some corp name m0o killed unique ship, that pirates are terrorizing players, there is that guy Tank CEO that no one can kill, alliance and corporations waging wars and inflicting heavy loses to others, market wars causing people become rich or lose everything, tycoons paying for wars, yulai incident where players had to be "taken out" by GMs etc. People came because there was a lot of adrenaline connected to the game, they wanted to experience it, they wanted to see if they are up to the challenge. Some were and they stayed, some were not and they left.
For all those years, majority did not complain about having to spend time to get sp, isk etc, and to remind you it was much harded than nowadays. Everyone was fighting for its own place in the universe. Kind of like RL, for most of the people it is hard, majority just whines but there are people who take control of their lives and fight to make it the best possible. Such were the players in the EVE compared to other MMORPGs.
And the game was growing and there was pain everywhere. Be it pain of hard work, waiting to finish something or pain being inflicted by others :D People were creating interesting content for buzz and the stories about that content attracted more players who did not want just instant action, they wanted to become part of the stories or to even create them, lead them. CCP from their side added more content in terms of items, ships etc. I would dare to say even faster than needed, but that is something which is hard to measure. Though it did create side effect of players always pushing for more of items and pushing to have them faster.
Meanwhile CCP started making mistakes. Listening to wrong suggestions. Making the game easier.
First important mistake was API, enabling killboards. Killboards have pushed a lot of people from having fun to "caring about stats" mode. Before the killboards people were ready to fight for fun, after them lots of people started fighting only if they think they can win or if they have no option to avoid it. You can negate this as much as you want but as someone living in PF-346 for years (stationed in FD-MLJ), system where people always headed to in order to have fights as there was always someone ready for it in there, we have witnessed a serious drop of regular activity and big increase in blobs. And I am quite sure that happened across the whole universe. That is something which has stopped never since. People playing for stats, boosting their ego with them, regardless if they had real skills or not.
CCP wanted more and more players, which is of course understandable. But they have taken the wrong direction. They have started to make game easier thinking that will keep existing and attract new players. And it surely worked on some. But they did not stay for long. Why? Because by making it easier, mainly by making easier to earn isk, they have enabled players to get bored faster. Players easily earn tons of isk, buy better chars in order to fasten up accomplishing their aims and having isk to buy any ships they have desired. When you earn something easily, you are prone to spend it easily as well. That way they did not really "bond" with their chars and their own accomplishments, but they simply jumped from one to another with higher sp just to speed up the game and achieve what they want. And what after that? Boredom and quitting obviously, some due to reaching their "targets", some because they were burned out in "must make tons of isk" process.
This is something that has been brought up by vets numerous times. They saw where it is heading to. Still, most called it "jealousy" without realizing that anything you enable for new players works for old ones as well. Maybe even better since they have more experience and knowledge to utilize it.
Over the time CCP has made it easier and easier for new players. Yet they have failed to keep the numbers of all newcomers. Beside those who have quit due to fast reaching of "endgame" by having xyz mil sp or having trillions of isk, titans, faction fitted ships I am sure a lot has quite due to "hard game with no content for new players" reason. Which is utter bullsh*t and let me explain you why in the next post.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Terraj Oknatis
xX-Crusader-Xx Tactical Narcotics Team
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:44:06 -
[2789] - Quote
And I would say that even less actual people are partaking in the Bizarr.
I would say that if someone gets into character trading they are going to do it more than once. I know a guy who has at least 15 bought characters, that I know of. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
80
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:44:45 -
[2790] - Quote
No matter do we talk about "good old times" for new players it has been quite similar. Start with a small frig. Develop char, earn isk, move in the direction you want to. It worked fine for plenty. It could not work for all as EVE is quite niche game, not something majority of gamers are used to.
They want content and ask for it. Well guess what, EVE is full of content, you just need to go for it. But they are lazy, they want it on the plate. They think content is only in the video clips they saw where capital fleets are fighting, or in trillions of isk. One of the simplest examples are goons. Not just a one player but a whole corp/alliance, so it is not a single exception for example.
They have started as everyone else. But they were pro active, they have organized themselves and they have started flying around the universe in the "noob" ships challenging even the strongest powerhouses. Some, shallow people considered them a joke as they did not have millions of sp or trillions of isk. But they had the most important thing needed to succeed in eve - dedication. Willingness to put effort and time and make their dreams come true. From being a joke they became "annoyance" and after that they became a problem. Then they became a serious problem. And you see where they are now.
Did they had fun on the way to their current position. I am sure they have had sh*tloads. Did they have hard times? Of course, EVE is full of that. But they have committed to their aims and lived up to their expectations. They have created not just their own fun but content for whole universe. They were not lazy and did not have to wait up for anything. They acted.
While personally I never liked them too much as they had too much smacktalk and spam following them and that is something I really dislike, one cannot negate their success. Nowadays I guess they are bored, but that is part of every powerhouse lifespan. At that point their either disband or the new challenger appears.
They have created their empire from a scratch, long after thousands of vets were already in the game. So their enemies had more sp, more isk, more knowledge. Did it stop them? No.
Who is stopped by that? Whiners, losers, lazy asses. People who want everything on the plate. EVE is simply not a game for them.
They are just one of the examples of players/corps who did it that way. And there are plenty more. Majority of the people actually enjoyed the game sine the start.
At every single point since the game went live there were players who had advantage compared to others. Even on day 1. Since there were thousands of players from beta, who already knew how to play eve. Did it stop others from doing it and having fun? Nope. If you want it, you can easily have it in any stage of the game.
Everything else are excuses. So man the f*ck up or quit. This is game for people who are ready for challenges.
The part of guilt is on CCP as well. Beside the mentioned isk earning they have made mistakes in their presentations. I am sure that plenty of people would sign up when they see clips or read stories about epic supercap battles and such. But majority of them comes with false impression that they just need to sign up and be able to take part in such. After first disappointment, when they find that they actually need some time and efforts to get to there, some quit and a lot of them continues to play until they realize how much exactly they need to commit. It does take them some time as the society keeps spreading "only the start is slow and hard" mantra. Which is not correct and I am sure you all are aware of it. Then they whine that the game is too hard and quit. And CCP mistakenly takes that in consideration without identifying the key problem being the wrong perspective those players had when joining.
The same will be with this new suggested system. First I really doubt many new players will do since not much people is ready to spend 50-100$ in addition to subscription to have turbo start. Even those who do it in order to "jump over the starting, boring period" will soon realize the slow ways of eve development. Some of them will quit, some will go earn isk and head to character bazaar, trying to get something out of the game. In previous post I have already mentioned the process which happens after that and leads to their quitting. Not for everyone of course but for majority.
None of them "cheats" eve. They cheat themselves thinking that that way they will find fun. Majority wont as they still wont have it on the plate. Some people who know what they are doing will actually make it to get over some obstacles, but they are in smaller numbers and they are all aware how much more effort they have to push in to get involved in everything that waits for them somewhere.
What CCP should do is to send much clearer message in their marketing activities. They have to realize what a niche we have here and that it cannot attract everyone. They have to call out for the target group. Ship explosions, market wars, huge fleets, roleplaying etc, all that can look impressive, but the message has to state clear challenge in order to be sure that those who are up for it come. Daring ones. As they will stay, they will have impact on politics, wars etc. They will be ready to put needed efforts as they will want to succeed and live up to the challenge. Everyone is welcome to come and try of course, but hardcore gamers are what is needed to continue with EVE as it is.
Other option is to keep making it easier, until you get on CS gungame level. You already have singularity. As if the new players were so interested in having everything "unlocked" it would be full all the time, they would not need to login to tranquility :) But in the most cases actual people there are vets, testing stuff and as usual, going extra mile to be able to do their best on tranquility. Though on this one I have to say that I don`t know if sisi is alive.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
85
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:45:35 -
[2791] - Quote
And as CCP obviously does not understand what is wrong with the direction they are heading to by making the game easier (CS gungame), what they are doing wrong and which side effects create, all our WOTs and arguments do not matter. Maybe if there is some serious "riots" and quitting after this change they get a message, maybe they wont. As it seems now, only common thing for "old" EVE and EVE they have vision of is the same name and ingame items. Maybe over the time and all of CCP employees changes they forgot what kind of game it is and that strategies used in other games cannot work the same in this one.
This whole issue saddens me a lot, but after thinking about it for some time I have quite mixed feelings. Maybe it is time for us vets (me at least) to move on, to realize that either CCP is wrong or we do not fit in among younger generations and their impatience to get everything and CCP providing them with that. Maybe this is just a sign then I should "let it go"?
I am sure plenty of vets share my perspective on that, majority of people (not posts) has already stated the same only to be challenged by couple of people whose arguments we do not consider real. Since vets are the one who are hardly going to be overtaken in any sense with this change (except in rare, crazy cases where some individuals will spend tons of cash for this) but we are fighting against this as we are fighting for EVEs essence, for the game we love as we are worried that this direction is going to kill EVE.
Sorry for WOTs, I have really tried to make it as short and concise as possible as every part I mentioned I can write much more in details. I am aware that the most of the new players will actually not even read it (as they have no patience) and the most of older ones share the same opinion but I had to let it out of myself, so when I look myself in the mirror I can say that I did not surrender. Maybe there will be a loss, but I fought for EVE in the best way I could.
I apologize in advance for typos or if I did not finish some though till the end, had very busy day and I am tired as hell, there can be some omissions.
Fly safe capsuleers o/
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Dave Stark
7582
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:46:24 -
[2792] - Quote
holy batman...
yeah, i'll read that later. it's midnight local time and i'm heading off now... but i will read it, just not right now. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9283
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:49:09 -
[2793] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Jasmine Heap wrote:I've always viewed the character bazaar as something that not many people were involved in. Perhaps I am wrong about that. I never used it myself. My fear with these changes is that it will mainstream and popularize the easy acquisition of SP. Look, perhaps my fears are unfounded, but I know how I *feel* about these changes. My gut says this is the wrong thing to do. I suppose there is a real structural problem with the "uncloseable gap" between players with hundreds of SP and new players, but simply allowing that gap to be closed on existing toons with isk/aurum/plex/money just feels wrong According to the dev blog on average about 70 characters are traded each month. Not sure if you consider that alot or not. "as evidenced by the 70 or so character transfers that happen every day," 70 per day, not month :) ~25550 per year. $511,000.00 per year minimum in transfer costs. That's if everyone paid cash. But they don't. They use PLEX so add maybe another hundred thousand dollars to that.
No wonder CCP never considered simply removing character sales as I've often suggested.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:55:58 -
[2794] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
the bold bit.
The only bold thing would be rhetoric instead of dialectic. I would like to read your argument. then do so, it's clearly stated here.
I do not see how this affects my argument. If there is any limit, it more likely would be the skill point cap per character. This will increase over time tough.
AFK money could potentially buy up any amount of SP that a single character can hold. So this time it would not be like taking away learning skills. Now any moneysack can join EVE. Join an alliance and profit from their soft skills instantly. Buy up SP and ISK to the maximum and profit instantly. Monetary and Social skills win. AKA pay to win. Just the possibility that one character is getting maxed out this way, degrades the very idea of accumulating SP over time. So I am asking again. What is left?
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote: This is not about any data. It is about the very soul of EVE Online.
Last time that GÇ£greed was good, the information was leaked. This time it was posted.
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:56:32 -
[2795] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Chrome Veinss wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:One of the reasons I oppose this is that IMO, it will be something in favor of older players. Older players do not need a new advantage.
I'll use myself as an example:
1. I have 123 million SP on this character alone. All totaled across my alts probably more than 300 million SP. 2. I belong to a NS corp with lots of other older players who can help me directly and/or indirectly in game. 3. I belong to a NS alliance with lots of older and some newer players who can help me directly and/or indirectly. 4. We belong to one of the biggest coalitions in the game which can help me directly and/or indirectly. 5. I have been in game 8 years, I have done lots of things and know quite a bit about the mechanics of the game. 6. I have billions of ISK in my wallets and even more billions in assets.
Now on top of this you'll give me the ability to almost surely PLEX one account while still being able to use that account to earn even more ISK?
Compared to a new player what do they have?
1, 5, and 6 are flat out No for all three. 2,3 and 4 are maybes, but probably not at least for awhile.
This proposal will at best let a new player close the gap on 1 a bit. For a few select new players they might close the gap quite a bit, but most will close it by nearly trivial amounts.
I can use this new mechanic much more effectively than a new player, IMO. In fact, right now I plan on it. If it goes into effect soon enough, I'll get a third AFKtar out in the anomalies, I'll keep my PI empire and have one of my alts train AWU V in perpetuity and drain of the SP to PLEX that account.
Will that help new players? Maybe, but just not seeing it. Its not about "closing the gap". In fact you seem to have a very good idea of what this is actually about: Its about letting people skip a week of skill training for some isk and letting people get rid of sp they dont want or need to get some isk. That's all it is. Its effects are having a sp boosted newbie skip the terrible first month flying tackle frigates and dying 5 minutes into ops and having 3 year old 50 mill sp players like me get slightly closer to flying another of the many many ships we still cant fly. If the newbie uses this market. Recall, the newbie has to go spend an additional $20-40 to do this. Will the average newbie do this? Maybe. But as I noted, the average newbie doing this means that half will not do it all or on an even more limited basis. That is how averages work...half the distribution is the right of the average, half to the left. In fact, the average newbie might even buy something like 0.5 SP packets. Why imply that PLEX is the only method of purchase? Probably the most-mentioned method of making ISK for newbies is sitting in a FW site, which is plenty. Show me a newbie who has billions of ISK who did not do it via PLEX? And newbie I mean a new player, not a new character who is the alt of a long time player. That's obviously irrelevant. It would require much less than billions to get an injector.
What probably happens is that fresh characters get hundreds of millions from the most lucrative (and thus repetitive) method of making ISK, and they realize there's nothing to spend it on and unsub.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 23:01:14 -
[2796] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
the bold bit.
The only bold thing would be rhetoric instead of dialectic. I would like to read your argument. He was referring the claim about infinite amounts of SP? That part is not going to happen. Not with this proposal. Again, if you oppose this idea, like I do, make a sensible argument, not just a rage post.
I was merely pointing out, that I would like to read something more concrete.
I hope this is to your liking.
Last time that GÇ£greed was goodGÇ¥, the information was leaked. This time it was posted.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 23:01:53 -
[2797] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Dror wrote:Moac Tor wrote:The truth is Rise doesn't really know what he is doing when it comes to new player retention and is flailing about now with this idea in an attempt to salvage his failed opportunities idea.
I could have told him the opportunity system wouldn't work, but for some reason he has taken that failure as a green light to put in this poor system. There were a lot of good suggestions in the new player retention thread, I'd suggest going back there and getting ideas from that. There was nothing like this idea that was suggested.
This idea will not make any difference to new player retention, in fact it will most likely have a negative effect.
I do think Rise is doing this with good intention for new player retention, but the marketing guys are pushing him on with $ in their eyes. There's no reason to pretend that you have the metrics of what effects fresh subs. They have every reason to believe, through scientific research and the game's data, that the motivation to experience the game is much more powerful than anything that can come from limited SP. Feel free to read up on intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation. These have objective commonalities that benefit game design, work ethic, and everything else that comes. Their scientific research and game data hasn't helped them so far. Have you followed the failure which is the opportunities system at all? I wouldn't be so dismissive of common sense opinions from eve players, graphs and statistics can only ever be of limited use. If SP is any tell, they have yet to implemented the scientific research. Honestly, is it so odd understanding that options and diversity and their strategy is fun? .. That a sandbox with industry and marketing and depth allowing its gameplay is the best option? That's why those subs are there -- for making relevance.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 23:09:08 -
[2798] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
There will be limited amount on the market. This is about as close to a fact as we can get in this thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6107232#post6107232
Last time that GÇ£greed was goodGÇ¥, the information was leaked. This time it was posted.
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Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 23:14:56 -
[2799] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:it seems to me that EVE is loosing its core when SP can be bought without limits. good job that's not the case, then. CCP Stark you have info you'd like to share with us ?? yeah - it's all in the devblog so i'm not breaking the NDA i'm under by being a ccp employee (disclaimer before i get banned for impersonating people at ccp: i don't actually work there.) the super secret info is that SP must be extracted from a character to be sold. that means there's a finite number of SP which means we have limit on how much SP can be bought. you know, if you'd have read the devblog maybe i wouldn't have to explain these things to you people and i wouldn't have more posts in this thread than anyone else. it helps to read a devblog BEFORE you come to the thread to discuss it. Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now, just in case your a TL;DR
See here.
Last time that GÇ£greed was goodGÇ¥, the information was leaked. This time it was posted.
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Jasmine Heap
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 23:21:41 -
[2800] - Quote
Even though SP must be extracted to be packaged and sold, it will always be readily available to anyone who wants it. |
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Jared Khanar
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 23:29:00 -
[2801] - Quote
Jasmine Heap wrote:Even though SP must be extracted to be packaged and sold, it will always be readily available to anyone who wants it.
yes, the devblog mentioned the exact way this is going to work. But this is nothing to talk about. It-¦s absolutly the same if you drive with a car to new york or by train or if you dance the whole way with both hands in the air. The moment you arrive theres this big bad guy waiting to beat the **** out of you, no matter how you got there :) |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3547
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:08:22 -
[2802] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Jasmine Heap wrote:I've always viewed the character bazaar as something that not many people were involved in. Perhaps I am wrong about that. I never used it myself. My fear with these changes is that it will mainstream and popularize the easy acquisition of SP. Look, perhaps my fears are unfounded, but I know how I *feel* about these changes. My gut says this is the wrong thing to do. I suppose there is a real structural problem with the "uncloseable gap" between players with hundreds of SP and new players, but simply allowing that gap to be closed on existing toons with isk/aurum/plex/money just feels wrong According to the dev blog on average about 70 characters are traded each month. Not sure if you consider that alot or not. "as evidenced by the 70 or so character transfers that happen every day," 70 per day, not month :) ~25550 per year.
Whoops thanks, thought it was a monthly number.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3547
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:11:14 -
[2803] - Quote
Dror wrote: That's obviously irrelevant. It would require much less than billions to get an injector.
What probably happens is that fresh characters get hundreds of millions from the most lucrative (and thus repetitive) method of making ISK, and they realize there's nothing to spend it on and unsub.
Okay, so using a single injector is largely trivial. So a character gets 500,000 additional SP. That sure is going to help.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3547
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:27:57 -
[2804] - Quote
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
the bold bit.
The only bold thing would be rhetoric instead of dialectic. I would like to read your argument. He was referring the claim about infinite amounts of SP? That part is not going to happen. Not with this proposal. Again, if you oppose this idea, like I do, make a sensible argument, not just a rage post. I was merely pointing out, that I would like to read something more concrete. I hope this is to your liking.
Not really, the problem is the decreasing returns to SP packets. Past 80 million SP you have to buy 20 SP packets to get 1,000,000 SP that is you have to buy 10,000,000 SP to get 1,000,000. If the 300,000,000 ISK/SP packet obtains (and this is probably a low estimate), then after 80 million SP means you'd have to spend 6 billion ISK/1,000,000 SP. Or about $100 in PLEX at current prices to get 1,000,000 SP. To reach 200,000,000 million you'd need to spend 120*$100 or $12,000. In terms of ISK going form 80 to 200 million SP would cost about 144 billion ISK.
This simply is not going to happen as a general rule. There might be somebody that stupidly rich in-game (i.e. tens of trillions of ISK) that they might do it...but even still, why not just buy a 200 million SP character in the bazaar for a fraction of the cost?
And it would likely be years before one "profited" at least in terms of ISK. If I plunk down say 200 billion ISK to get a character up to 200 million SP, how much ISK can that character generate in a month? How long before I "recover my investment"? Granted maybe having a 200 million character is "profit" enough. But if I'm new to the game I'll likely die like any other newbie until I figure stuff out. I might be flying around like a bonehead in a T2 cruisers with a mixed tank, guns of different sizes, maybe even different types doing stupid things like flying straight into a bunch of hostiles with no transversal and wonder...why did I die?
And chances are any alliance would not likely take me. They'd see I was 2 weeks old and their API data showing I have 200 million SP. Wallet warrior who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. Granted, maybe I went to the character bazaar and bought up some 8 year old character that had very little SP and built off of that...but then my employment history would look a little dodgy, 8 years in game in a noob corp and I know what I'm doing? Uhhh okay maybe not. And where is my killboard data? My corp requires killboard information as well. No killboard data, no admittance.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3547
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:34:28 -
[2805] - Quote
Jasmine Heap wrote:Even though SP must be extracted to be packaged and sold, it will always be readily available to anyone who wants it.
No, it will be readily available to those who can pay for it.
And the supply will be limited. Nobody can go above the total amount of SP in the game less N*5,000,000 (where N is the total number of characters), and in fact the available total is probably less because of characters on inactive accounts will clearly not be putting SP on the market.
So, if you are going to base arguments on an infinite supply of SP on the market...don't. Just don't. Try to make a more constructive argument that CCP will take seriously.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:34:32 -
[2806] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
the bold bit.
The only bold thing would be rhetoric instead of dialectic. I would like to read your argument. He was referring the claim about infinite amounts of SP? That part is not going to happen. Not with this proposal. Again, if you oppose this idea, like I do, make a sensible argument, not just a rage post. I was merely pointing out, that I would like to read something more concrete. I hope this is to your liking. Not really, the problem is the decreasing returns to SP packets. Past 80 million SP you have to buy 20 SP packets to get 1,000,000 SP that is you have to buy 10,000,000 SP to get 1,000,000. If the 300,000,000 ISK/SP packet obtains (and this is probably a low estimate), then after 80 million SP means you'd have to spend 6 billion ISK/1,000,000 SP. Or about $100 in PLEX at current prices to get 1,000,000 SP. To reach 200,000,000 million you'd need to spend 120*$100 or $12,000. In terms of ISK going form 80 to 200 million SP would cost about 144 billion ISK. This simply is not going to happen as a general rule. There might be somebody that stupidly rich in-game (i.e. tens of trillions of ISK) that they might do it...but even still, why not just buy a 200 million SP character in the bazaar for a fraction of the cost? And it would likely be years before one "profited" at least in terms of ISK. If I plunk down say 200 billion ISK to get a character up to 200 million SP, how much ISK can that character generate in a month? How long before I "recover my investment"? Granted maybe having a 200 million character is "profit" enough. But if I'm new to the game I'll likely die like any other newbie until I figure stuff out. I might be flying around like a bonehead in a T2 cruisers with a mixed tank, guns of different sizes, maybe even different types doing stupid things like flying straight into a bunch of hostiles with no transversal and wonder...why did I die? And chances are any alliance would not likely take me. They'd see I was 2 weeks old and their API data showing I have 200 million SP. Wallet warrior who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. Granted, maybe I went to the character bazaar and bought up some 8 year old character that had very little SP and built off of that...but then my employment history would look a little dodgy, 8 years in game in a noob corp and I know what I'm doing? Uhhh okay maybe not. And where is my killboard data? My corp requires killboard information as well. No killboard data, no admittance.
I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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d0cTeR9
Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance
251
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:35:59 -
[2807] - Quote
Yayyyyyyyyy, bye bye 5 million wasted mining SP!
Been around since the beginning.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3548
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:45:40 -
[2808] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:
I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster.
Not compared to the character bazaar. There you'd pay 500 million/1 million ISK. Over 80 million SP, go to the character bazaar.
Sure, somebody could, in theory, go out and try to buy 79 million SP worth of SP...problem is they'd need for there to be 10*79 million SP to be on the market.
You are making an argument based on infinite SP on the market and that is flawed. You are wrong. Dead wrong. Stop posting and go play with the numbers.
Look, I do NOT like this idea. Initially I did, but then I thought about it some more and now I'm not a fan. Go find a better reason to oppose this idea than starting out with....
Assumption: There is an infinite amount of SP on the market and the price is invariant to demand.
As soon as you start with that assumption you are just wrong.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3548
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:46:29 -
[2809] - Quote
d0cTeR9 wrote:Yayyyyyyyyy, bye bye 5 million wasted mining SP!
Heh.
And hello 3 billion ISK (at least, IMO).
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:50:34 -
[2810] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dror wrote: That's obviously irrelevant. It would require much less than billions to get an injector.
What probably happens is that fresh characters get hundreds of millions from the most lucrative (and thus repetitive) method of making ISK, and they realize there's nothing to spend it on and unsub.
Okay, so using a single injector is largely trivial. So a character gets 500,000 additional SP. That sure is going to help. That's a set of small, t2 turrets trained, with the added benefit of their ammo selection and benefits.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Marsha Mallow
2643
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:50:58 -
[2811] - Quote
The numbers aren't finalised yet, calm down. Make some recommendations alongside that analysis if you can.
@ Teckos btw
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3548
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:51:39 -
[2812] - Quote
Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dror wrote: That's obviously irrelevant. It would require much less than billions to get an injector.
What probably happens is that fresh characters get hundreds of millions from the most lucrative (and thus repetitive) method of making ISK, and they realize there's nothing to spend it on and unsub.
Okay, so using a single injector is largely trivial. So a character gets 500,000 additional SP. That sure is going to help. That's a set of small, t2 turrets trained, with the added benefit of their ammo selection and benefits.
And that is about it. So, meh.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Jasmine Heap
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:52:48 -
[2813] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Jasmine Heap wrote:Even though SP must be extracted to be packaged and sold, it will always be readily available to anyone who wants it. No, it will be readily available to those who can pay for it. And the supply will be limited. Nobody can go above the total amount of SP in the game less N*5,000,000 (where N is the total number of characters), and in fact the available total is probably less because of characters on inactive accounts will clearly not be putting SP on the market. So, if you are going to base arguments on an infinite supply of SP on the market...don't. Just don't. Try to make a more constructive argument that CCP will take seriously.
If there is a demand for bacon, people are going to raise pigs. There will always be some opportunistic players who take note of the high price of SP packages and start skilling toons to profit from it. It is too early to project where market equilibrium will occur. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:54:36 -
[2814] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:[
I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster. Not compared to the character bazaar. There you'd pay 500 million/1 million ISK. Over 80 million SP, go to the character bazaar. Sure, somebody could, in theory, go out and try to buy 79 million SP worth of SP...problem is they'd need for there to be 10*79 million SP to be on the market. You are making an argument based on infinite SP on the market and that is flawed. You are wrong. Dead wrong. Stop posting and go play with the numbers. Look, I do NOT like this idea. Initially I did, but then I thought about it some more and now I'm not a fan. Go find a better reason to oppose this idea than starting out with.... Assumption: There is an infinite amount of SP on the market and the price is invariant to demand. As soon as you start with that assumption you are just wrong.
I am not making an argument based on infinite sp. I made argument on 5-10 players needing less than 100mil sp each. That is 1 bil sp total. Even less if there are less contestants. And that is nothing. If this idea works as intended there will be much more sp on the market as thousands of alts would be stripped of unnecessary sp in order to get some more isk. Not to mention people who will make farms for this. Even if there is it never happens to have more than enough tsp on the market for the instant purchase of total needed amount, they can do it in time. Ie buy 10mils this month, buy 20 2nd month, buy 5 3rd month etc, all based on available market. Maybe it will take them time or maybe they will make purchase orders at 50% higher price in order to get them fast, but they will still get them for affordable amount of isk.
So stop posting before actually comprehending what is said.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Marsha Mallow
2643
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:58:02 -
[2815] - Quote
Jasmine Heap wrote:If there is a demand for bacon, people are going to raise pigs. There will always be some opportunistic players who take note of the high price of SP packages and start skilling toons to profit from it. It is too early to project where market equilibrium will occur. Umm that model misses out the fact that all of the playerbase are also pigs. Both subscribed and unsubscribed. Being offered the opportunity to lop bits off themselves and either stick them on another alt or sell. The subbed playerbase has no control over the unsubbed who may resub and spectacularly disrupt their little piglet farms. If that makes sense.
Is anyone else having horriable Jekyll and Hyde imagery here, or is it just me? Think I'd prefer the Soylent Green, but it's very hard to dislodge.
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:58:31 -
[2816] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:The numbers aren't finalised yet, calm down. Make some recommendations alongside that analysis if you can.
@ Teckos btw
I have made my recommendations why not to do this in 4 WOTs. If I have to give recommendations in support of this idea, I would rather say remove SP from the game, give everyone all the skills and unlimited isk, make counter strike in space. At least that would speed up the dying game process.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:58:59 -
[2817] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:So, meh. Says what logic?
If you have a more interesting alternative, I'm sure it would be a great counter to the whole idea.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3548
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:58:59 -
[2818] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:[
I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster. Not compared to the character bazaar. There you'd pay 500 million/1 million ISK. Over 80 million SP, go to the character bazaar. Sure, somebody could, in theory, go out and try to buy 79 million SP worth of SP...problem is they'd need for there to be 10*79 million SP to be on the market. You are making an argument based on infinite SP on the market and that is flawed. You are wrong. Dead wrong. Stop posting and go play with the numbers. Look, I do NOT like this idea. Initially I did, but then I thought about it some more and now I'm not a fan. Go find a better reason to oppose this idea than starting out with.... Assumption: There is an infinite amount of SP on the market and the price is invariant to demand. As soon as you start with that assumption you are just wrong. I am not making an argument based on infinite sp. I made argument on 5-10 players needing less than 100mil sp each. That is 1 bil sp total. Even less if there are less contestants. And that is nothing. If this idea works as intended there will be much more sp on the market as thousands of alts would be stripped of unnecessary sp in order to get some more isk. Not to mention people who will make farms for this. Even if there is it never happens to have more than enough tsp on the market for the instant purchase of total needed amount, they can do it in time. Ie buy 10mils this month, buy 20 2nd month, buy 5 3rd month etc, all based on available market. Maybe it will take them time or maybe they will make purchase orders at 50% higher price in order to get them fast, but they will still get them for affordable amount of isk. So stop posting before actually comprehending what is said.
No, you are implying there is always enough SP on the market for players to buy. In effect, an infinite supply. Did you outright say it? No, but it is an implication of what you wrote. A simple inference really.
Suppose 5 guys need 100 million SP. An SP packet has 500,000 SP in it right now according to the Dev Blog. But if these guys each have a character with 200 million SP then they can't just by 100 million SP worth of SP packets. Because if they did they'd only get 10 million SP on their character. They'd need to each buy 1 billion SP. For all 5 that is 5 billion SP. Or to put it in really stark terms they'd need to drain down to 5 million SP 25 205 million SP characters.
I'm sorry that strikes me as just complete errant nonsense. Could it happen in theory? Yes. In theory, I could win the lottery tomorrow and quit my job. Do I plan on that happening? No.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3548
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:01:10 -
[2819] - Quote
Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:So, meh. Says what logic? If you have a more interesting alternative, I'm sure it would be a great counter to the whole idea.
Saying that most new players are not going to go out and grind 300 million for this. How many hours parked in FW sites would they have to spend?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Marsha Mallow
2643
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:04:29 -
[2820] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Marsha Mallow wrote:The numbers aren't finalised yet, calm down. Make some recommendations alongside that analysis if you can.
@ Teckos btw I have made my recommendations why not to do this in 4 WOTs. If I have to give recommendations in support of this idea, I would rather say remove SP from the game, give everyone all the skills and unlimited isk, make counter strike in space. At least that would speed up the dying game process. I wasn't talking to you.
But yeh, I don't mind the alternative. See here.
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
|
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:06:46 -
[2821] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:[
I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster. Not compared to the character bazaar. There you'd pay 500 million/1 million ISK. Over 80 million SP, go to the character bazaar. Sure, somebody could, in theory, go out and try to buy 79 million SP worth of SP...problem is they'd need for there to be 10*79 million SP to be on the market. You are making an argument based on infinite SP on the market and that is flawed. You are wrong. Dead wrong. Stop posting and go play with the numbers. Look, I do NOT like this idea. Initially I did, but then I thought about it some more and now I'm not a fan. Go find a better reason to oppose this idea than starting out with.... Assumption: There is an infinite amount of SP on the market and the price is invariant to demand. As soon as you start with that assumption you are just wrong. I am not making an argument based on infinite sp. I made argument on 5-10 players needing less than 100mil sp each. That is 1 bil sp total. Even less if there are less contestants. And that is nothing. If this idea works as intended there will be much more sp on the market as thousands of alts would be stripped of unnecessary sp in order to get some more isk. Not to mention people who will make farms for this. Even if there is it never happens to have more than enough tsp on the market for the instant purchase of total needed amount, they can do it in time. Ie buy 10mils this month, buy 20 2nd month, buy 5 3rd month etc, all based on available market. Maybe it will take them time or maybe they will make purchase orders at 50% higher price in order to get them fast, but they will still get them for affordable amount of isk. So stop posting before actually comprehending what is said. No, you are implying there is always enough SP on the market for players to buy. In effect, an infinite supply. Did you outright say it? No, but it is an implication of what you wrote. A simple inference really. Suppose 5 guys need 100 million SP. An SP packet has 500,000 SP in it right now according to the Dev Blog. But if these guys each have a character with 200 million SP then they can't just by 100 million SP worth of SP packets. Because if they did they'd only get 10 million SP on their character. They'd need to each buy 1 billion SP. For all 5 that is 5 billion SP. Or to put it in really stark terms they'd need to drain down to 5 million SP 25 205 million SP characters. I'm sorry that strikes me as just complete errant nonsense. Could it happen in theory? Yes. In theory, I could win the lottery tomorrow and quit my job. Do I plan on that happening? No.
I did mean 79mil sp in that example which means 790mil sp in TSP. But do you even read my posts? I have clearly stated that they do not have to buy it all instantly. I even wrote you an example.
+they can buy characters from char bazaar and sell TSP to themselves. You can easily buy 1bil sp from the bazaar at any time. Not to mention that they probably already have multiple alts on their own, which they have used to build their economy empires so they might just have to convert them to TSP. So yes, they can EASILY get 1bil sp at affordable price even without infinite supply as they can supply themselves.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:08:27 -
[2822] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Marsha Mallow wrote:The numbers aren't finalised yet, calm down. Make some recommendations alongside that analysis if you can.
@ Teckos btw I have made my recommendations why not to do this in 4 WOTs. If I have to give recommendations in support of this idea, I would rather say remove SP from the game, give everyone all the skills and unlimited isk, make counter strike in space. At least that would speed up the dying game process. I wasn't talking to you. But yeh, I don't mind the alternative. See here.
Sorry then :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Marsha Mallow
2643
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:10:59 -
[2823] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Sorry then :) Now I feel bad I edited my above post >.>
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
|
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CCP Terminus
C C P C C P Alliance
422
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:12:44 -
[2824] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Jasmine Heap wrote:I've always viewed the character bazaar as something that not many people were involved in. Perhaps I am wrong about that. I never used it myself. My fear with these changes is that it will mainstream and popularize the easy acquisition of SP. Look, perhaps my fears are unfounded, but I know how I *feel* about these changes. My gut says this is the wrong thing to do. I suppose there is a real structural problem with the "uncloseable gap" between players with hundreds of SP and new players, but simply allowing that gap to be closed on existing toons with isk/aurum/plex/money just feels wrong According to the dev blog on average about 70 characters are traded each month. Not sure if you consider that alot or not.
Roughly 70 characters are traded per day, not per month. Something like 25000 a year give or take.
Some more data: - Most traded characters are 50 million SP or lower. - A good portion of trades are to newer players (measured by new customers not just new accounts).
@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters
|
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3548
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:17:17 -
[2825] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:[
I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster. Not compared to the character bazaar. There you'd pay 500 million/1 million ISK. Over 80 million SP, go to the character bazaar. Sure, somebody could, in theory, go out and try to buy 79 million SP worth of SP...problem is they'd need for there to be 10*79 million SP to be on the market. You are making an argument based on infinite SP on the market and that is flawed. You are wrong. Dead wrong. Stop posting and go play with the numbers. Look, I do NOT like this idea. Initially I did, but then I thought about it some more and now I'm not a fan. Go find a better reason to oppose this idea than starting out with.... Assumption: There is an infinite amount of SP on the market and the price is invariant to demand. As soon as you start with that assumption you are just wrong. I am not making an argument based on infinite sp. I made argument on 5-10 players needing less than 100mil sp each. That is 1 bil sp total. Even less if there are less contestants. And that is nothing. If this idea works as intended there will be much more sp on the market as thousands of alts would be stripped of unnecessary sp in order to get some more isk. Not to mention people who will make farms for this. Even if there is it never happens to have more than enough tsp on the market for the instant purchase of total needed amount, they can do it in time. Ie buy 10mils this month, buy 20 2nd month, buy 5 3rd month etc, all based on available market. Maybe it will take them time or maybe they will make purchase orders at 50% higher price in order to get them fast, but they will still get them for affordable amount of isk. So stop posting before actually comprehending what is said. No, you are implying there is always enough SP on the market for players to buy. In effect, an infinite supply. Did you outright say it? No, but it is an implication of what you wrote. A simple inference really. Suppose 5 guys need 100 million SP. An SP packet has 500,000 SP in it right now according to the Dev Blog. But if these guys each have a character with 200 million SP then they can't just by 100 million SP worth of SP packets. Because if they did they'd only get 10 million SP on their character. They'd need to each buy 1 billion SP. For all 5 that is 5 billion SP. Or to put it in really stark terms they'd need to drain down to 5 million SP 25 205 million SP characters. I'm sorry that strikes me as just complete errant nonsense. Could it happen in theory? Yes. In theory, I could win the lottery tomorrow and quit my job. Do I plan on that happening? No. I did mean 79mil sp in that example which means 790mil sp in TSP. But do you even read my posts? I have clearly stated that they do not have to buy it all instantly. I even wrote you an example. +they can buy characters from char bazaar and sell TSP to themselves. You can easily buy 1bil sp from the bazaar at any time. Not to mention that they probably already have multiple alts on their own, which they have used to build their economy empires so they might just have to convert them to TSP. So yes, they can EASILY get 1bil sp at affordable price even without infinite supply as they can supply themselves.
The price of 300 million is just a ball park minimum estimate. Guys going out trying to hoover up the SP is going drive up the price as well.
And guess what they'll keep training too. In fact, the training might generate more SP than they can buy depending on market conditions. If they are optimized for training in terms of attributes they may earn as much as 2 million SP. Depending on market conditions maybe they can only buy 20 million SP off the market and essentially double their training time. So now instead of taking 3 years 4 months to get to 279 million they get their in 1 year 8 months. OMG, game shattering.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:17:35 -
[2826] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Marsha Mallow wrote:The numbers aren't finalised yet, calm down. Make some recommendations alongside that analysis if you can.
@ Teckos btw I have made my recommendations why not to do this in 4 WOTs. If I have to give recommendations in support of this idea, I would rather say remove SP from the game, give everyone all the skills and unlimited isk, make counter strike in space. At least that would speed up the dying game process. I wasn't talking to you. But yeh, I don't mind the alternative. See here. Ooooh I knew you looked familiar. Another person I remember from the old forum who hasn't been active ingame for years. 474 kills since 2003, half of which were whored whilst you were in Poser Legion for a bit, and the rest of the time spent on eve-o being a condescending bittervet. Ye, I do remember you. RIP ;)
Sorry to burst the bubble for you but there were no KB in 2003, I think they have started to be used either in the end of 2005 or in 2006. Majority of my kills actually was not in PL, it was in my previous corps and guess what, even though this is my main it`s primary role was backup. Off grid scorp, cloaked falcon etc. I have had other characters which were used for actual shooting. But it`s ok, just jump to your assumptions, I like when people show how shallow they are, gives a lot to their credibility.
Mind letting me know who have i ever been condescending to? Since I cannot remember a single time in my life or EVE career?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3548
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:18:24 -
[2827] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Jasmine Heap wrote:I've always viewed the character bazaar as something that not many people were involved in. Perhaps I am wrong about that. I never used it myself. My fear with these changes is that it will mainstream and popularize the easy acquisition of SP. Look, perhaps my fears are unfounded, but I know how I *feel* about these changes. My gut says this is the wrong thing to do. I suppose there is a real structural problem with the "uncloseable gap" between players with hundreds of SP and new players, but simply allowing that gap to be closed on existing toons with isk/aurum/plex/money just feels wrong According to the dev blog on average about 70 characters are traded each month. Not sure if you consider that alot or not. Roughly 70 characters are traded per day, not per month. Something like 25000 a year give or take. Some more data: - Most traded characters are 50 million SP or lower. - A good portion of trades are to newer players (measured by new customers not just new accounts).
Are you able to distinguish new accounts from alt accounts?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Karin Yang
Eye Of Insight SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:19:58 -
[2828] - Quote
Why that 10 players max their skills matters? Does this make them the king of the universe? |
a25639
Aliastra Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:20:29 -
[2829] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster. It will surely happen. However, players doing this wonGÇÖt gain any reasonable advantages by doing it. After all there are only combat skills worth 290m sp available and that includes mostly useless level 5 skills. |
TanelEE
Estonian Ghosts Aureus Alae
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:22:15 -
[2830] - Quote
Nope! NO! God NO! Great humor guys...
NO! |
|
Wendrika Hydreiga
527
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:23:12 -
[2831] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: Are you able to distinguish new accounts from alt accounts?
That's like asking Santa Claus if he can tell apart the good children from the bad. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:24:41 -
[2832] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:[ Not compared to the character bazaar. There you'd pay 500 million/1 million ISK. Over 80 million SP, go to the character bazaar.
Sure, somebody could, in theory, go out and try to buy 79 million SP worth of SP...problem is they'd need for there to be 10*79 million SP to be on the market.
You are making an argument based on infinite SP on the market and that is flawed. You are wrong. Dead wrong. Stop posting and go play with the numbers.
Look, I do NOT like this idea. Initially I did, but then I thought about it some more and now I'm not a fan. Go find a better reason to oppose this idea than starting out with....
Assumption: There is an infinite amount of SP on the market and the price is invariant to demand.
As soon as you start with that assumption you are just wrong.
I am not making an argument based on infinite sp. I made argument on 5-10 players needing less than 100mil sp each. That is 1 bil sp total. Even less if there are less contestants. And that is nothing. If this idea works as intended there will be much more sp on the market as thousands of alts would be stripped of unnecessary sp in order to get some more isk. Not to mention people who will make farms for this. Even if there is it never happens to have more than enough tsp on the market for the instant purchase of total needed amount, they can do it in time. Ie buy 10mils this month, buy 20 2nd month, buy 5 3rd month etc, all based on available market. Maybe it will take them time or maybe they will make purchase orders at 50% higher price in order to get them fast, but they will still get them for affordable amount of isk. So stop posting before actually comprehending what is said. No, you are implying there is always enough SP on the market for players to buy. In effect, an infinite supply. Did you outright say it? No, but it is an implication of what you wrote. A simple inference really. Suppose 5 guys need 100 million SP. An SP packet has 500,000 SP in it right now according to the Dev Blog. But if these guys each have a character with 200 million SP then they can't just by 100 million SP worth of SP packets. Because if they did they'd only get 10 million SP on their character. They'd need to each buy 1 billion SP. For all 5 that is 5 billion SP. Or to put it in really stark terms they'd need to drain down to 5 million SP 25 205 million SP characters. I'm sorry that strikes me as just complete errant nonsense. Could it happen in theory? Yes. In theory, I could win the lottery tomorrow and quit my job. Do I plan on that happening? No. I did mean 79mil sp in that example which means 790mil sp in TSP. But do you even read my posts? I have clearly stated that they do not have to buy it all instantly. I even wrote you an example. +they can buy characters from char bazaar and sell TSP to themselves. You can easily buy 1bil sp from the bazaar at any time. Not to mention that they probably already have multiple alts on their own, which they have used to build their economy empires so they might just have to convert them to TSP. So yes, they can EASILY get 1bil sp at affordable price even without infinite supply as they can supply themselves. The price of 300 million is just a ball park minimum estimate. Guys going out trying to hoover up the SP is going drive up the price as well. And guess what they'll keep training too. In fact, the training might generate more SP than they can buy depending on market conditions. If they are optimized for training in terms of attributes they may earn as much as 2 million SP. Depending on market conditions maybe they can only buy 20 million SP off the market and essentially double their training time. So now instead of taking 3 years 4 months to get to 279 million they get their in 1 year 8 months. OMG, game shattering.
Can you please read whole posts, not just jumping on one sentence?
As soon as this change hits I can go and buy 1bil sp on character bazaar and convert them to TSP. So the cost is extractors + chars. Or I can take my alts and convert them to TSP. Then give them for free to my main. Then only cost i will have will be extractors. Aurum price of extractors influences my cost in plexes. And considering this is something designed to help everyone, that cost should not be high. So for affordable amount of ISK (for a trillionare) i will do it. Capiche? If not then sorry, I cannot draw it better.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Marsha Mallow
2643
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:25:36 -
[2833] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Mind letting me know who have i ever been condescending to? Since I cannot remember a single time in my life or EVE career? Good point. You haven't afaik think I just remember the name because it has CAPS and I'm mentally lumping you in with the codgers. Sorry. There are a couple of other Dons about too. But it does beg the question - with such low activity ingame and on the forums, can you accurately and fairly judge whether the SP system should be adjusted for the 2015 MMO market? Might have seen you on eve-board too if that's a high SP one, so again. Is that personal interest you're advocating for, an idea of how the game was when you were more active, or an ideal for core game design principles going forward?
Sorry to pick you out, but you are a geriatric, so a considered answer might be valuable. No rush.
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:25:45 -
[2834] - Quote
Karin Yang wrote:Why that 10 players max their skills matters? Does this make them the king of the universe?
For some bored super rich people it will surely be interesting aim.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:26:34 -
[2835] - Quote
a25639 wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster. It will surely happen. However, players doing this wonGÇÖt gain any reasonable advantages by doing it. After all there are only combat skills worth 290m sp available and that includes mostly useless level 5 skills.
They will not do it because of advantage but pure prestige.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
a25639
Aliastra Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:28:24 -
[2836] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Karin Yang wrote:Why that 10 players max their skills matters? Does this make them the king of the universe? For some bored super rich people it will surely be interesting aim.
Sure it will be. But it's not in any way a problem for other players. At that point it's nothing but a number without any ingame effect. |
Karin Yang
Eye Of Insight SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:28:25 -
[2837] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Karin Yang wrote:Why that 10 players max their skills matters? Does this make them the king of the universe? For some bored super rich people it will surely be interesting aim. It's only something like top 1 position in bounty office. If you like it, just go for it. But that's not disasters at all. Who cares. |
|
CCP Terminus
C C P C C P Alliance
424
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:29:03 -
[2838] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:CCP Terminus wrote: Roughly 70 characters are traded per day, not per month. Something like 25000 a year give or take.
Some more data: - Most traded characters are 50 million SP or lower. - A good portion of trades are to newer players (measured by new customers not just new accounts).
Are you able to distinguish new accounts from alt accounts?
Not perfectly but yes, that's what measured by new customers not just new accounts implies.
@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters
|
|
Omad Moreau
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:29:20 -
[2839] - Quote
Hello my space friends
This is my first post for Eve Online as I thought its time to speak up, done wrong I think this has the chance to kill Eve. So here are my thoughts on the subject.
You take "X" amount of SP from yourself and can only put it back into yourself. This will let the people who don't want to "mine" anymore use that +6mill SP just sitting there and stop a new character from having more SP than he/she should.
If done the way CCP has said I DON'T like the idea of a 1day character getting into a Titan (yes an extreme example). So maybe put a limitation on it. After using the service you have to wait "X" amount of time before you can use it again. Maybe you would have to wait for the time that it would have taken you to train the skill/s with you current attributes.
THIS IS GOING TO SEND PLEX EVEN HIGHER and is going make more people quit the game or unsubscribe alts and making Eve even more empty, not what I want to happen even if its a mining alt, ganking alt, scammer alt or that guy who may never leave his NPC corporation (love you CAS).
So yeah that's all I can think of right now for my first and probably only post.
Love you, miss you already and stay classy Eve.
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:33:39 -
[2840] - Quote
@Teckos Pech, What else would they spend dank FW ISK on, then?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
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Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:34:53 -
[2841] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:a25639 wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster. It will surely happen. However, players doing this wonGÇÖt gain any reasonable advantages by doing it. After all there are only combat skills worth 290m sp available and that includes mostly useless level 5 skills. They will not do it because of advantage but pure prestige.
If done for prestige but no advantage then this idea isn't going to break eve so go for it CCP I can't wait for this to be introduced!
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:36:47 -
[2842] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Mind letting me know who have i ever been condescending to? Since I cannot remember a single time in my life or EVE career? Good point. You haven't afaik think I just remember the name because it has CAPS and I'm mentally lumping you in with the codgers. Sorry. There are a couple of other Dons about too. But it does beg the question - with such low activity ingame and on the forums, can you accurately and fairly judge whether the SP system should be adjusted for the 2015 MMO market? Might have seen you on eve-board too if that's a high SP one, so again. Is that personal interest you're advocating for, an idea of how the game was when you were more active, or an ideal for core game design principles going forward? Sorry to pick you out, but you are a geriatric, so a considered answer might be valuable. No rush.
I am quite sure that I can talk about game fundamentals since I have been here since the start, seeing all the good and bad things. As mentioned I have multiple accounts, this one is used for ship spinning only for years due to some personal reasons, but I have played on others meanwhile.
I am indeed in eve-o among top 100 chars, not sure how precise that list is compared to the real list in eve as i doubt everyone is present there. Still I am based in that portion of players which will not be affected much by this as 5-10 places up or down does not influence anything for me (as I do not expect more than 5-10 people going for something like that). On the other hand top 1, 3, 5, 10 chars will surely be influenced a lot and my biggest concern beside their "loss" itself is destroying of consistency on customer-service provider relationship which I have already pointed out numerous times in this topic. All other concerns and possible side effects I see are already posted as well, I really do not feel like writing them again. And yes, my input is focusing on core game design principles and side effects of altering them.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Marsha Mallow
2643
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:41:03 -
[2843] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:I am indeed in eve-o among top 100 chars, not sure how precise that list is compared to the real list in eve as i doubt everyone is present there. Still I am based in that portion of players which will not be affected much by this as 5-10 places up or down does not influence anything for me (as I do not expect more than 5-10 people going for something like that). On the other hand top 1, 3, 5, 10 chars will surely be influenced a lot and my biggest concern beside their "loss" itself is destroying of consistency on customer-service provider relationship which I have already pointed out numerous times in this topic. All other concerns and possible side effects I see are already posted as well, I really do not feel like writing them again. And yes, my input is focusing on core game design principles and side effects of altering them. So the game design re skillpoints should never be adjusted because the 1-10 rankers on eveboard might be offended?
Or sorry, just to open that up. The 0-1000 top SP alts who may or may not have regged on eve-board.
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:42:51 -
[2844] - Quote
a25639 wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Karin Yang wrote:Why that 10 players max their skills matters? Does this make them the king of the universe? For some bored super rich people it will surely be interesting aim. Sure it will be. But it's not in any way a problem for other players. At that point it's nothing but a number without any ingame effect.
It is problem of consistency on customer-service provider relations. Please read my previous posts on this subject I really do not want to write the same things hundreds of times.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:44:02 -
[2845] - Quote
Karin Yang wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Karin Yang wrote:Why that 10 players max their skills matters? Does this make them the king of the universe? For some bored super rich people it will surely be interesting aim. It's only something like top 1 position in bounty office. If you like it, just go for it. But that's not disasters at all. Who cares.
Not at all. You can instantly become top 1 position in the bounty office by dropping isk on the bounty. It took someone 12 years of effort, time and subscription to be top 1 sp wise.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9285
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:45:14 -
[2846] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Mind letting me know who have i ever been condescending to? Since I cannot remember a single time in my life or EVE career? Good point. You haven't afaik think I just remember the name because it has CAPS and I'm mentally lumping you in with the codgers. Sorry. There are a couple of other Dons about too. But it does beg the question - with such low activity ingame and on the forums, can you accurately and fairly judge whether the SP system should be adjusted for the 2015 MMO market? Might have seen you on eve-board too if that's a high SP one, so again. Is that personal interest you're advocating for, an idea of how the game was when you were more active, or an ideal for core game design principles going forward? Sorry to pick you out, but you are a geriatric, so a considered answer might be valuable. No rush. You aroused my curiosity.
He is indeed on EB and sitting north of 244M SP.
No wonder he's so against this. He thinks someone will top him out and he'll just be a low ranked pleb in what seems to be the only thing that matters to him. As much SP as possible.
Now to explore a little further and see if he's a purchased character.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:45:55 -
[2847] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:a25639 wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster. It will surely happen. However, players doing this wonGÇÖt gain any reasonable advantages by doing it. After all there are only combat skills worth 290m sp available and that includes mostly useless level 5 skills. They will not do it because of advantage but pure prestige. If done for prestige but no advantage then this idea isn't going to break eve so go for it CCP I can't wait for this to be introduced!
And again... it undermines customer-service provide relationship and sends message to everyone that they cannot expect any consistency from CCP. If you cannot understand why that is bad, you can read some of my previous posts where i summed it.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:47:05 -
[2848] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
the bold bit.
The only bold thing would be rhetoric instead of dialectic. I would like to read your argument. He was referring the claim about infinite amounts of SP? That part is not going to happen. Not with this proposal. Again, if you oppose this idea, like I do, make a sensible argument, not just a rage post. I was merely pointing out, that I would like to read something more concrete. I hope this is to your liking. Not really, the problem is the decreasing returns to SP packets. Past 80 million SP you have to buy 20 SP packets to get 1,000,000 SP that is you have to buy 10,000,000 SP to get 1,000,000. If the 300,000,000 ISK/SP packet obtains (and this is probably a low estimate), then after 80 million SP means you'd have to spend 6 billion ISK/1,000,000 SP. Or about $100 in PLEX at current prices to get 1,000,000 SP. To reach 200,000,000 million you'd need to spend 120*$100 or $12,000. In terms of ISK going form 80 to 200 million SP would cost about 144 billion ISK. This simply is not going to happen as a general rule. There might be somebody that stupidly rich in-game (i.e. tens of trillions of ISK) that they might do it...but even still, why not just buy a 200 million SP character in the bazaar for a fraction of the cost? And it would likely be years before one "profited" at least in terms of ISK. If I plunk down say 200 billion ISK to get a character up to 200 million SP, how much ISK can that character generate in a month? How long before I "recover my investment"? Granted maybe having a 200 million character is "profit" enough. But if I'm new to the game I'll likely die like any other newbie until I figure stuff out. I might be flying around like a bonehead in a T2 cruisers with a mixed tank, guns of different sizes, maybe even different types doing stupid things like flying straight into a bunch of hostiles with no transversal and wonder...why did I die? And chances are any alliance would not likely take me. They'd see I was 2 weeks old and their API data showing I have 200 million SP. Wallet warrior who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. Granted, maybe I went to the character bazaar and bought up some 8 year old character that had very little SP and built off of that...but then my employment history would look a little dodgy, 8 years in game in a noob corp and I know what I'm doing? Uhhh okay maybe not. And where is my killboard data? My corp requires killboard information as well. No killboard data, no admittance.
I beg to differ. Still liked your response.
I do agree in regards to SP maximizing not becoming the general rule if these changes are implemented.
Someone aquiring the necessary ISK ingame seems less of a problem than someone using AFK money to buy in. No way to prevent it, if the current mechanics would not be adopted simultaneously. Buying a char in the Bazaar could only be the first step. It could be followed by breaking some of them up for SP harvesting. Transneural Skill Packet mass consumption would be a next step. Once some would start GÇ£skill dopingGÇ¥, how many more would follow suit?
Given the relatively low impact that skills have performance wise in EVE, maxing seems unlikely. I will also give you that. It would be possible though. The market would give the answer, as usual. This conflict is more about values, ethics, than anything else, though. The option alone is enough to alter the perception of EVE.
The recruitment process of your corp would bar most dopers from there, and from many more decent corporations. Still there would be the Nouveau riche around. Many of these definitely would continue to failfit. This does neither proof my argument, nor deny it.
The difference between skills as requirements and performance factors should be taken into consideration in this discussion. What remains is that I still do not understand, why the only factor that gave veterans the slightest advantage should be taken out. Without any compensation?
So why not simply cap the SP that can be injected per character and adapt this over time? Or limit the level per skill that can be raised by consumption? Maybe according to tier, maybe also combine all of these factors, define some new? Anything is better than this abomination.
Last time that GÇ£greed was goodGÇ¥, the information was leaked. This time it was posted.
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Karin Yang
Eye Of Insight SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:49:07 -
[2849] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Marsha Mallow wrote:[quote=Don ZOLA]Mind letting me know who have i ever been condescending to? Since I cannot remember a single time in my life or EVE career? I am indeed in eve-o among top 100 chars, not sure how precise that list is compared to the real list in eve as i doubt everyone is present there. Still I am based in that portion of players which will not be affected much by this as 5-10 places up or down does not influence anything for me (as I do not expect more than 5-10 people going for something like that). On the other hand top 1, 3, 5, 10 chars will surely be influenced a lot and my biggest concern beside their "loss" itself is destroying of consistency on customer-service provider relationship which I have already pointed out numerous times in this topic. All other concerns and possible side effects I see are already posted as well, I really do not feel like writing them again. And yes, my input is focusing on core game design principles and side effects of altering them.
You seems are only talk for your own privilege. In the old way, you can be among the first 100 to max skill. But after this change, you can only be 200 or 500 rank. Why not just tell the truth that it is a bad idea because you can no longer despise others on skills. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:49:22 -
[2850] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I am indeed in eve-o among top 100 chars, not sure how precise that list is compared to the real list in eve as i doubt everyone is present there. Still I am based in that portion of players which will not be affected much by this as 5-10 places up or down does not influence anything for me (as I do not expect more than 5-10 people going for something like that). On the other hand top 1, 3, 5, 10 chars will surely be influenced a lot and my biggest concern beside their "loss" itself is destroying of consistency on customer-service provider relationship which I have already pointed out numerous times in this topic. All other concerns and possible side effects I see are already posted as well, I really do not feel like writing them again. And yes, my input is focusing on core game design principles and side effects of altering them. So the game design re skillpoints should never be adjusted because the 1-10 rankers on eveboard might be offended? Or sorry, just to open that up. The 0-1000 top SP alts who may or may not have regged on eve-board.
And once again, it alters game fundamentals and that is dangerous precedent as it threats customer - service provider relationship. If you want to understand more, read my previous posts.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
|
Marsha Mallow
2643
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:51:32 -
[2851] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:You aroused my curiosity. He is indeed on EB and sitting north of 244M SP. No wonder he's so against this. He thinks someone will top him out and he'll just be a low ranked pleb in what seems to be the only thing that matters to him. As much SP as possible. Now to explore a little further and see if he's a purchased character. Mr Epeen Aye, the name rang a bell. See here.
The funny thing is, none of the highest SP alts are known ingame, for anything other than their SP. Caymus has a shite SP spread - I seem to vaguely recall it's mostly in science. So these people have been competing for over a decade to max out certain skillgroups - and they were doing it initially under a system that massively favoured specific attribute mappings.
I am sure they are very annoyed. They'll always be famous for that SP epeen competition though, because I've always had my eye on them. And it was a sardonic, contemptuous eye. Not an admiring 'omg show me your sp and I'll flash the boobs for you are an eveonline rockstar'. Frankly, the RL women here cyber better anyway. Ahem.
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:53:40 -
[2852] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Marsha Mallow wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Mind letting me know who have i ever been condescending to? Since I cannot remember a single time in my life or EVE career? Good point. You haven't afaik think I just remember the name because it has CAPS and I'm mentally lumping you in with the codgers. Sorry. There are a couple of other Dons about too. But it does beg the question - with such low activity ingame and on the forums, can you accurately and fairly judge whether the SP system should be adjusted for the 2015 MMO market? Might have seen you on eve-board too if that's a high SP one, so again. Is that personal interest you're advocating for, an idea of how the game was when you were more active, or an ideal for core game design principles going forward? Sorry to pick you out, but you are a geriatric, so a considered answer might be valuable. No rush. You aroused my curiosity. He is indeed on EB and sitting north of 244M SP. No wonder he's so against this. He thinks someone will top him out and he'll just be a low ranked pleb in what seems to be the only thing that matters to him. As much SP as possible. Now to explore a little further and see if he's a purchased character. ~ED~ Sorry. I didn't realize it had already been touched on. My bad for posting before reading ahead. I hate when other people do that. Mr Epeen
Guess what, I wrote that in my first post here. If you were actually someone who wanted to contribute to the topic you would be reading posts from people who put a lot of arguments against or even pro this. But you are just a troll.
And as i already answered to Marsha, I will not be influenced in terms of top list since I am not in top 1/3/5/10. If i am top 40 or top 50, it does not really matter.
If only thing that matters to me was as much sp as possible then I would really like this change as I have tons of sp in alts which i can convert to TSP and tons of ISK to buy plex and aurum to execute it and get among top10 players. But since you are just trolling here, I am not surprised you did not think much about it.
Please go explore and find out if I have purchased this character. That way you will be wasting only your own time.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:56:57 -
[2853] - Quote
Karin Yang wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Marsha Mallow wrote:[quote=Don ZOLA]Mind letting me know who have i ever been condescending to? Since I cannot remember a single time in my life or EVE career? I am indeed in eve-o among top 100 chars, not sure how precise that list is compared to the real list in eve as i doubt everyone is present there. Still I am based in that portion of players which will not be affected much by this as 5-10 places up or down does not influence anything for me (as I do not expect more than 5-10 people going for something like that). On the other hand top 1, 3, 5, 10 chars will surely be influenced a lot and my biggest concern beside their "loss" itself is destroying of consistency on customer-service provider relationship which I have already pointed out numerous times in this topic. All other concerns and possible side effects I see are already posted as well, I really do not feel like writing them again. And yes, my input is focusing on core game design principles and side effects of altering them. You seems are only talk for your own privilege. In the old way, you can be among the first 100 to max skill. But after this change, you can only be 200 or 500 rank. Why not just tell the truth that it is a bad idea because you can no longer despise others on skills.
Not really. There is no way so many people will spend that much isk to get sp. I expect 5-10 to really go for top positions. And even if that was my only concern, I have enough riches to counter it. If my "satisfaction" was in despising anyone or people who have lower sp than me, I could still do it even after they purchase it, simply switch to "my sp is real, you had to buy your own mode" ^^.
For what i am talking you can easily find out couple pages ago where i wrote 4 WOT`s with explanations. And after that we can discuss about it.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Karin Yang
Eye Of Insight SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:59:04 -
[2854] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Karin Yang wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Marsha Mallow wrote:[quote=Don ZOLA]Mind letting me know who have i ever been condescending to? Since I cannot remember a single time in my life or EVE career? I am indeed in eve-o among top 100 chars, not sure how precise that list is compared to the real list in eve as i doubt everyone is present there. Still I am based in that portion of players which will not be affected much by this as 5-10 places up or down does not influence anything for me (as I do not expect more than 5-10 people going for something like that). On the other hand top 1, 3, 5, 10 chars will surely be influenced a lot and my biggest concern beside their "loss" itself is destroying of consistency on customer-service provider relationship which I have already pointed out numerous times in this topic. All other concerns and possible side effects I see are already posted as well, I really do not feel like writing them again. And yes, my input is focusing on core game design principles and side effects of altering them. You seems are only talk for your own privilege. In the old way, you can be among the first 100 to max skill. But after this change, you can only be 200 or 500 rank. Why not just tell the truth that it is a bad idea because you can no longer despise others on skills. Not really. There is no way so many people will spend that much isk to get sp. I expect 5-10 to really go for top positions. And even if that was my only concern, I have enough riches to counter it. If my "satisfaction" was in despising anyone or people who have lower sp than me, I could still do it even after they purchase it, simply switch to "my sp is real, you had to buy your own mode" ^^. For what i am talking you can easily find out couple pages ago where i wrote 4 WOT`s with explanations. And after that we can discuss about it. But the top 10 or even top 500 people is not a important matter since there are so many eve online player. If they matter, it's because what they did, not because of there SP rank. |
Marsha Mallow
2644
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 02:00:52 -
[2855] - Quote
Don, we're not trolling you. We're character traders, and we've pushed for a change like this for years because we think it will improve the game. I'm sorry that it hurts your interests or the other guys on the leader rankboard on eveboard. I have all of my ISK tied up in characters, but I'll write it all off to support this change if it's worthwhile. And our personal motivations were never a valid reason to obstruct new player retention or character customisation in the first place. It's certainly not an equitable trade in terms of attracting new content creators who will actually play this game, given that most of the leaderboard guys are playing SkillQueue Online, and have been for years.
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 02:03:11 -
[2856] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Roughly 70 characters are traded per day, not per month. Something like 25000 a year give or take.
Some more data: - Most traded characters are 50 million SP or lower. - A good portion of trades are to newer players (measured by new customers not just new accounts). Interesting. I'm going out on a limb that there aren't a lot of 10M SP characters being bought, so let's say an average of 25-30M (or, roughly 1 year old).
That's 625-750,000,000,000 SP changing hands every year. Or, 1,500,000 skill extractors used. Post-extractor, that's also going to mean a lot of SP burned by the tax. 10% doesn't seem to unreasonable: 75 Billion SP/year up in smoke due to extractor tax? That's 3,000 years worth of SP burned away for injection costs.
50,000 PLEX consumed by transfer fees, or ~$850,000 USD. That amount of PLEX accounts for ~25 days of sales volume in Jita. It makes you wonder what the PLEX converted extractor cost will be.
I do envy Quant's job. <3
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 02:03:21 -
[2857] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:You aroused my curiosity. He is indeed on EB and sitting north of 244M SP. No wonder he's so against this. He thinks someone will top him out and he'll just be a low ranked pleb in what seems to be the only thing that matters to him. As much SP as possible. Now to explore a little further and see if he's a purchased character. Mr Epeen Aye, the name rang a bell. See here. The funny thing is, none of the highest SP alts are known ingame, for anything other than their SP. Caymus has a shite SP spread - I seem to vaguely recall it's mostly in science. So these people have been competing for over a decade to max out certain skillgroups - and they were doing it initially under a system that massively favoured specific attribute mappings. I am sure they are very annoyed. They'll always be famous for that SP epeen competition though, because I've always had my eye on them. And it was a sardonic, contemptuous eye. Not an admiring 'omg show me your sp and I'll flash the boobs for you are an eveonline rockstar'. Frankly, the RL women here cyber better anyway. Ahem.
While agree that the most of top10 people are totally unknown that does not mean anything really since you and me might be focusing on pvp while they are players who focus on other aspects of the game. While I would never skill my char as Dr Caymus did, I am sure there are plenty of players out there who find his char perfect as they are in the same industry.
As much as their preferred skillgroups defers from mine it was their own choice. Keep in mind that back in time there was no attribute remaps so they could not switches just like that. Some of the skills they had to train at slower tempo than some other.
What most of people here keep failing at is looking at wider picture and not only from its own perspective....
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 02:07:05 -
[2858] - Quote
Karin Yang wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Karin Yang wrote:[quote=Don ZOLA] You seems are only talk for your own privilege. In the old way, you can be among the first 100 to max skill. But after this change, you can only be 200 or 500 rank. Why not just tell the truth that it is a bad idea because you can no longer despise others on skills. Not really. There is no way so many people will spend that much isk to get sp. I expect 5-10 to really go for top positions. And even if that was my only concern, I have enough riches to counter it. If my "satisfaction" was in despising anyone or people who have lower sp than me, I could still do it even after they purchase it, simply switch to "my sp is real, you had to buy your own mode" ^^. For what i am talking you can easily find out couple pages ago where i wrote 4 WOT`s with explanations. And after that we can discuss about it. But the top 10 or even top 500 people is not a important matter since there are so many eve online player. If they matter, it's because what they did, not because of there SP rank.
Every customer is important. Please keep in mind that we are talking about business here, CCP makes money out of this and we are customers. You cannot just neglect someone because there are others out there. Or you can and send that message to the other customers who will ask themselves when is their turn to be neglected. CCP have to care about much more things than players do.
And lots of those 500 people did a lot for the game, regardless of sp, sp came just with years spent around.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
160
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 02:08:33 -
[2859] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:I wouldnt get your hopes up, its a company there has to be something in it for them to impliment a change that benefits both sides.
That would negate the need for a character bazaar and the freehold sale of skillpoints, depends if theyre in it for pure profit purposes only or they do actually listen to the client base.
I see, so it's the money CCP is making from Character Bazaar that's spawned this greed.
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 02:09:28 -
[2860] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Don, we're not trolling you. We're character traders, and we've pushed for a change like this for years because we think it will improve the game. I'm sorry that it hurts your interests or the other guys on the leader rankboard on eveboard. I have all of my ISK tied up in characters, but I'll write it all off to support this change if it's worthwhile. And our personal motivations were never a valid reason to obstruct new player retention or character customisation in the first place. It's certainly not an equitable trade in terms of attracting new content creators who will actually play this game, given that most of the leaderboard guys are playing SkillQueue Online, and have been for years.
You are not trolling, epeen and some others are.
My only interest is better eve. And i strongly believe this is wrong move for that. As i already mentioned, i have wrote really huge explanation why i think that. As I am not going to repeat it all, if you do not read it and yet want to discuss with me, it aint really going to work.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
91
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 02:16:57 -
[2861] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:Roughly 70 characters are traded per day, not per month. Something like 25000 a year give or take.
Some more data: - Most traded characters are 50 million SP or lower. - A good portion of trades are to newer players (measured by new customers not just new accounts). Interesting. I'm going out on a limb that there aren't a lot of 10M SP characters being bought, so let's say an average of 25-30M (or, roughly 1 year old). That's 625-750,000,000,000 SP changing hands every year. Or, 1,500,000 skill extractors used. Post-extractor, that's also going to mean a lot of SP burned by the tax. 10% doesn't seem to unreasonable: 75 Billion SP/year up in smoke due to extractor tax? That's 3,000 years worth of SP burned away for injection costs. 50,000 PLEX consumed by transfer fees, or ~$850,000 USD. That amount of PLEX accounts for ~25 days of sales volume in Jita. It makes you wonder what the PLEX converted extractor cost will be. I do envy Quant's job. <3 Don ZOLA wrote:Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster. Your ability to gauge a 'disaster' might need some recalibration.
Your ability to discuss without reading prior post is non existent.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9287
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 02:17:45 -
[2862] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Marsha Mallow wrote:Don, we're not trolling you. We're character traders, and we've pushed for a change like this for years because we think it will improve the game. I'm sorry that it hurts your interests or the other guys on the leader rankboard on eveboard. I have all of my ISK tied up in characters, but I'll write it all off to support this change if it's worthwhile. And our personal motivations were never a valid reason to obstruct new player retention or character customisation in the first place. It's certainly not an equitable trade in terms of attracting new content creators who will actually play this game, given that most of the leaderboard guys are playing SkillQueue Online, and have been for years. You are not trolling, epeen and some others are. My only interest is better eve. And i strongly believe this is wrong move for that. As i already mentioned, i have wrote really huge explanation why i think that. As I am not going to repeat it all, if you do not read it and yet want to discuss with me, it aint really going to work.
You wrote no explanation. I read it.
It's an egocentric manifesto that advocates what's good for you. Not the game. The sad thing is I believe you actually think everyone else plays the game of 'SP is more important than all else'. It's a shame you've allegedly been in this game for so long and learned so little.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Marsha Mallow
2645
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 02:18:50 -
[2863] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:I see, so it's the money CCP is making from Character Bazaar that's spawned this greed. Hardly. More like us on the ground pointing out existing paths of monetization CCP can and should cash in on. Both to support the game and expand it. Sorry if your SP defines you, but if you really push the core playerbase who aren't self-centered imbeciles, they're probably willing to do just about anything to keep this game alive. Watching you flail about is not unrewarding in itself :)
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
91
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 02:23:27 -
[2864] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Marsha Mallow wrote:Don, we're not trolling you. We're character traders, and we've pushed for a change like this for years because we think it will improve the game. I'm sorry that it hurts your interests or the other guys on the leader rankboard on eveboard. I have all of my ISK tied up in characters, but I'll write it all off to support this change if it's worthwhile. And our personal motivations were never a valid reason to obstruct new player retention or character customisation in the first place. It's certainly not an equitable trade in terms of attracting new content creators who will actually play this game, given that most of the leaderboard guys are playing SkillQueue Online, and have been for years. You are not trolling, epeen and some others are. My only interest is better eve. And i strongly believe this is wrong move for that. As i already mentioned, i have wrote really huge explanation why i think that. As I am not going to repeat it all, if you do not read it and yet want to discuss with me, it aint really going to work. You wrote no explanation. I read it. It's an egocentric manifesto that advocates what's good for you. Not the game. The sad thing is I believe you actually think everyone else plays the game of 'SP is more important than all else'. It's a shame you've allegedly been in this game for so long and learned so little. Mr Epeen
Nice try. If you had actually read it you would be ashamed to put such weak troll. Let me give you a hint about couple of things i went in details there :
customer - service provider relation importance of consistency for game which demands long term plans business model and target groups goons
Totally egocentrically, agreed. Now continue searching if I have purchased this char please.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 02:23:41 -
[2865] - Quote
Revan Daedrus wrote:PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS, one of the most rewarding parts of eve is that you cannot grind or purchase your way to the top, when you get a new skill it hold meaning because it took you real time to achieve it. This thread should be titled pay to win because that is what this change will do. This will alienate every long term eve player and it will destroy one of EVEs most unique properties. I would go so far as to say that this will ruin the game at its very core. I beg of you, do not do this.
Greed is a terrible disease.
And it appears that CCP Devs (Dave Starks) has contracted it.
Bottom line is that CCP will do what CCP wants to do. And if the go ahead and incorporate this abominable feature, I and my numerous accounts will disappear from eve forever. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 02:29:29 -
[2866] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:I see, so it's the money CCP is making from Character Bazaar that's spawned this greed. Hardly. More like us on the ground pointing out existing paths of monetization CCP can and should cash in on. Both to support the game and expand it. Sorry if your SP defines you, but if you really push the core playerbase who aren't self-centered imbeciles, they're probably willing to do just about anything to keep this game alive. Watching you flail about is not unrewarding in itself :)
You make it sound as if CCP doesn't have a choice but to do this. That if they don't do this, they would go bankrupt or something. But there are plenty of other ways CCP can go about doing this if they really insist on SP trading that doesn't involve killing the game at it's core.
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Oovarvu
Maas Industries
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 02:32:09 -
[2867] - Quote
if there was ever a time to go to the character bazaar and buy the character you always wanted it's probably now. i reckon this will see a huge amount of sp removed from the game given the diminishing returns, and the subsequent character price inflation if it's introduced.
still, i could be wrong.
oh, and no i don't sell toons. |
Terraj Oknatis
xX-Crusader-Xx Tactical Narcotics Team
27
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 02:43:01 -
[2868] - Quote
Oovarvu wrote:if there was ever a time to go to the character bazaar and buy the character you always wanted it's probably now. i reckon this will see a huge amount of sp removed from the game given the diminishing returns, and the subsequent character price inflation if it's introduced.
still, i could be wrong.
oh, and no i don't sell toons.
I think that is a super good point. If there is this efficiency loss on character skill points, then people who are serious about farming in this manner will continually distill extra characters for their sp pulling them down from the bizarre as said. This in turn will lessen the number of alts in the game. Less alts mean less accounts. Less accounts mean less subscriptions. Less subscriptions = less stable income in the end.
Is this even economically sound from a business perspective? |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9288
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 02:55:50 -
[2869] - Quote
Terraj Oknatis wrote:Oovarvu wrote:if there was ever a time to go to the character bazaar and buy the character you always wanted it's probably now. i reckon this will see a huge amount of sp removed from the game given the diminishing returns, and the subsequent character price inflation if it's introduced.
still, i could be wrong.
oh, and no i don't sell toons. I think that is a super good point. If there is this efficiency loss on character skill points, then people who are serious about farming in this manner will continually distill extra characters for their sp pulling them down from the bizarre as said. This in turn will lessen the number of alts in the game. Less alts mean less accounts. Less accounts mean less subscriptions. Less subscriptions = less stable income in the end. Is this even economically sound from a business perspective? What a bizarre train of thought.
There may well be less spare characters in the game as the crap is scooped up to be consolidated into decent characters.. But since every time anyone decides to start an acct a new character (potentially three) is created, the game will never somehow 'run out' of characters and make people have to unsubscribe. Or lessen the number of alts people have.
There will always be enough characters. Always.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3145
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 03:09:21 -
[2870] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: CSM folks who oppose the change, or anyone else who's against it.
Can you point me to a cogent argument not using subjective buzzwords like "pay to win" why this change is bad?
OK, I am still catching up, but you asked nicely.
There have been a few constants in Eve. Real-time for skill training and industry was one of them. Oh you can buy the item/ship and jump ahead but someone played that real time price. Same goes for the Character Bazaar. You may not have paid the time but someone did, with plex or cold hard cash.
So CCP is looking at replacing it and who loses? On the surface? Nobody. We strip older characters or farmed alts and use them to fuel the newer ones. No loss, just out with the old, supercharge the new. But that is the thing.
'Stripping the old' but do you honestly think most of the skill points will go to NEW players? That it will increase retention or just make more alts of the vets? Is an increase in subs really a good thing if a lot of them are brood mares existing only to have their brains harvested on a regular basis . . . full of +5's and never ever undocking into space? Will that give us more content? Or will it just be numbers on some ledger?
Will new players coming in look and see the rich instaboosting themselves into better ships and leaving the normal subscription player behind in the dust? Would you play a game like that where it was obviously a game of haves and have-nots and you were probably one of the have-nots? Or would you pour your own money in and hope it was enough to keep up?
I sit in Rookie Help Chat and listen to new players trying to figure out how to play for free. How to earn that 1.2 bill within 30 days. Those types, will they stay if I tell them that not only is it unlikely but that they will have to pay extra to be decent at the game. If they listen and do pay to be able to fly . . . say an incursion or a null rat ship . . . in the first week then they will be well on the road to playing for free, right? Since increased demand for those elusive PLEX will have no effect on the market.
A lot of people are saying that this is fine since it will not effect them or maybe they can use it to rearrange their own skills, clean up that shameful mining V. I just hope they are very space rich or already used to paying subscriptions. I am in the latter category.
I'll still be here but IF this goes through I will be a bit more bitter and somewhat disappointed with what the game has become.
Pay to win? no, but what about Pay to keep up
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 03:20:45 -
[2871] - Quote
I'm posting as someone who is fairly new to EVE (2 months, 3.5M SP).
In EVE, interesting content is walled off by skill points barriers, and hence by character time. A big problem is that the new content is not becoming available roughly linear with time. Rather, there are chunks of new game content that become available as you cross some threshold or the other, and then long wait times until you can manage to cross the next threshold.
For example, I'm currently training cov ops and related stuff with the aim to get a reasonably fit explorer frigate to go through wormhole and null/low sec stealthily without getting blown up by every random player who spots me. That takes a month or so. Frankly, I've been playing less while waiting for the skill queue to complete. I don't actually want to mine or rat more asteroid belts, and high sec exploring is getting stale. I can't really run cooler missions than I have been, because I would have to train up skills for my cruiser. But I'm already training the stealth stuff.
What would happen if skill packets were available?
1. I would but a PLEX, convert it into ISK and buy enough skill packets to complete my stealth skills. 2. I would fly my cov ops frigate into worm holes and null/low sec to explore. 3. Because I have stealth, I would probably not get blown up instantly. 4. Because I am unexperienced, I would eventually make some newbie mistake, and get blown up anyway. 5. Rinse and repeat, with me getting better by experience at using stealth and dying less and less.
And this hurts everybody else and in particular experienced players how exactly? Best I can tell, they get
1. Extra PLEX in the market, driving the PLEX price down. 2. Somebody to sell "unwanted" SP to for a lot of ISK. 3. An extra target running around outside of high sec. 4. An extra target that is more of a challenge than a random newbie in a Heron, but still quite killable. 5. A player who is actually still paying CCP subscription money not getting bored into quitting.
Can I abuse all this to boost me all the way to flying a Titan? Well, theoretically. But given how I get rapidly less "bang for the buck" as the SP in my character increases, this would mean major investments of real money.
I expect a skill packet will cost roughly what it costs to train that 500k SP. Let's say you can generate a bit more than 2,000 SP per hour, then you need 10 days to generate one skill packet. Consequently, I expect the market price of a skill packet to be around a third of a PLEX, perhaps a bit less. Let's say it's about 350M ISK.
To boost a character from 0 to 5M SP would hence cost about 3.5B ISK. To boost the character further to 50M SP would cost another 31.5B ISK. To get to 80M SP would require 52.5B ISK, you see there how the reduced skill points gained per packet start to bite. And finally, to get to 100M SP would require another 140B ISK. So in total, from zero to 100M SP would require 227.5B ISK.
Now, maybe you have that kind of money in game, or maybe you have that kind of money in real life to spend on a game. I sure don't. Most people playing EVE I suspect do not have that either. For most people this will be a good way to get their character over a skill speed bump - to be used occasionally.
I think it is a good idea. It will make more newbies do more things faster. It will drive PLEX prices down. And the only people who will full-finance characters to top skills will be the super-rich of EVE. Most skill shopping will be only up to "useful basics" levels of perhaps 10-20M SP, which are somewhat affordable. |
Chrome Veinss
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 03:22:58 -
[2872] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Karin Yang wrote:Why that 10 players max their skills matters? Does this make them the king of the universe? For some bored super rich people it will surely be interesting aim.
Don ZOLA wrote:a25639 wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster. It will surely happen. However, players doing this wonGÇÖt gain any reasonable advantages by doing it. After all there are only combat skills worth 290m sp available and that includes mostly useless level 5 skills. They will not do it because of advantage but pure prestige.
So why should we give the faintest **** about this again?
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9289
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 03:24:17 -
[2873] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Sibyyl wrote: CSM folks who oppose the change, or anyone else who's against it.
Can you point me to a cogent argument not using subjective buzzwords like "pay to win" why this change is bad?
OK, I am still catching up, but you asked nicely. There have been a few constants in Eve. Real-time for skill training and industry was one of them. Oh you can buy the item/ship and jump ahead but someone played that real time price. Same goes for the Character Bazaar. You may not have paid the time but someone did, with plex or cold hard cash. So CCP is looking at replacing it and who loses? On the surface? Nobody. We strip older characters or farmed alts and use them to fuel the newer ones. No loss, just out with the old, supercharge the new. But that is the thing. 'Stripping the old' but do you honestly think most of the skill points will go to NEW players? That it will increase retention or just make more alts of the vets? Is an increase in subs really a good thing if a lot of them are brood mares existing only to have their brains harvested on a regular basis . . . full of +5's and never ever undocking into space? Will that give us more content? Or will it just be numbers on some ledger? Will new players coming in look and see the rich instaboosting themselves into better ships and leaving the normal subscription player behind in the dust? Would you play a game like that where it was obviously a game of haves and have-nots and you were probably one of the have-nots? Or would you pour your own money in and hope it was enough to keep up? I sit in Rookie Help Chat and listen to new players trying to figure out how to play for free. How to earn that 1.2 bill within 30 days. Those types, will they stay if I tell them that not only is it unlikely but that they will have to pay extra to be decent at the game. If they listen and do pay to be able to fly . . . say an incursion or a null rat ship . . . in the first week then they will be well on the road to playing for free, right? Since increased demand for those elusive PLEX will have no effect on the market. A lot of people are saying that this is fine since it will not effect them or maybe they can use it to rearrange their own skills, clean up that shameful mining V. I just hope they are very space rich or already used to paying subscriptions. I am in the latter category. I'll still be here but IF this goes through I will be a bit more bitter and somewhat disappointed with what the game has become. Pay to win? no, but what about Pay to keep up m While I don't really agree with much of what you said, I am going to +1 you for coming in here an sharing your thoughts in a concise and understandable way without resorting to outlandish rhetoric, fear mongering, and attacks on CCP.
/respect
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 03:36:10 -
[2874] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Pay to win? no, but what about Pay to keep up You run the Bus. Of all the CSMs, I was kind of expecting you to be the one who's dislike of this was because it was too small a step. I harp on getting rid of SP whenever the opportunity comes up, because I find it a pointless and outdated mechanic.
Mike Azariah wrote: the rich instaboosting themselves into better ships and leaving the normal subscription player behind in the dust Why are we putting multi-month barriers in front of the new players to begin with? If you're worried about the space-rich ISKing themselves to 'SP victory', isn't the problem the SP power spread - not the payment plan?
Mike Azariah wrote:full of +5's and never ever undocking into space? Which is exactly the problem driving the removal of attributes. Except it's with actual players who don't want to undock because they don't want to lose those SP.
I guess I'm just confused that your issue with the system seems to be that providing a way to "Pay to keep up" will just be a money drain that won't benefit those new players. But you seem to actually enjoy/appreciate the "Real Time for skill training", despite that barrier being exactly why people would be so tempted to pay into this scheme.
Mr Epeen wrote:While I don't really agree with much of what you said, I am going to +1 you for coming in here an sharing your thoughts in a concise and understandable way without resorting to outlandish rhetoric, fear mongering, and attacks on CCP. +1 |
a25639
Aliastra Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 03:40:54 -
[2875] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:There have been a few constants in Eve. Real-time for skill training and industry was one of them. Oh you can buy the item/ship and jump ahead but someone played that real time price. Same goes for the Character Bazaar. You may not have paid the time but someone did, with plex or cold hard cash. The proposed changes are no difference. The sp packages are not created out of thin air. Someone else had to train the skills.
Mike Azariah wrote:'Stripping the old' but do you honestly think most of the skill points will go to NEW players? That it will increase retention or just make more alts of the vets? Is an increase in subs really a good thing if a lot of them are brood mares existing only to have their brains harvested on a regular basis . . . full of +5's and never ever undocking into space? Will that give us more content? Or will it just be numbers on some ledger? When I started playing EVE 7 years ago I did nothing but train a character for half a year until I joined a player corporation eventually. Two months after joining the player corporation I bought a character because the lack of skills on my main was preventing me to get properly involved in the player corporation.
I still have my first character and it has 140m sp by now. However, the sad thing is I never really used it because it was always more reasonable to use one of my higher sp characters.
According to CCP there are many more players like me. What you are afraid of is already happening. The proposed changes would just make the whole process much smoother.
Mike Azariah wrote:Will new players coming in look and see the rich instaboosting themselves into better ships and leaving the normal subscription player behind in the dust? Would you play a game like that where it was obviously a game of haves and have-nots and you were probably one of the have-nots? Or would you pour your own money in and hope it was enough to keep up?
I sit in Rookie Help Chat and listen to new players trying to figure out how to play for free. How to earn that 1.2 bill within 30 days. Those types, will they stay if I tell them that not only is it unlikely but that they will have to pay extra to be decent at the game. If they listen and do pay to be able to fly . . . say an incursion or a null rat ship . . . in the first week then they will be well on the road to playing for free, right? Since increased demand for those elusive PLEX will have no effect on the market. I personally wouldn't have continued playing the game for more than a few months if the possibility to buy characters wouldn't have existed. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 03:44:49 -
[2876] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:A big problem is that the new content is not becoming available roughly linear with time. Oddly enough, content is actually "back loaded" rather heavily.
Your first 20M SP will be a lot of broad support skills: gunnery, piloting, +5% to this, +2.5% to that, etc. Once those are done though all you have left is the 'unlock new hull/weapon' skills. Getting "Mastery IV" in one hull gives you that for almost every hull in that class, and gets you most of the way there for almost every ship for that faction.
So you get your Cruiser support skills all topped up. That takes the better part of a year to do. What's left to move up to Battleships?
Faction BS Large Weapon ... Large Drones?
Those skills take longer, to be sure. I think for most just getting ship & gun up to V is something like 60 days. But that's still nothing compared to the initial support skill investment. And you have those nearly perfectly skilled Cruisers to fly in the meantime.
I'll admit - I'm going to be very tempted to top off those support skills if/when this goes live. I've been waiting nearly a decade for decently skilled combat sub-caps. Maybe 2016 is the year.
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v0cal minority
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 03:46:58 -
[2877] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:insightful post
Spot on.
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Chrome Veinss
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 03:50:13 -
[2878] - Quote
Terraj Oknatis wrote:Oovarvu wrote:if there was ever a time to go to the character bazaar and buy the character you always wanted it's probably now. i reckon this will see a huge amount of sp removed from the game given the diminishing returns, and the subsequent character price inflation if it's introduced.
still, i could be wrong.
oh, and no i don't sell toons. I think that is a super good point. If there is this efficiency loss on character skill points, then people who are serious about farming in this manner will continually distill extra characters for their sp pulling them down from the bizarre as said. This in turn will lessen the number of alts in the game. Less alts mean less accounts. Less accounts mean less subscriptions. Less subscriptions = less stable income in the end. Is this even economically sound from a business perspective?
Less alt accounts would turn this into a much better game, hopefully increasing non alt account subscriptions. I cant think of anything else that can improve the game substantially than getting rid of alts. Id wager that the single worst thing you can tell a newbie is something along the lines of "you need an alt to do x" or "you're **** if you dont have an alt". Unfortunately they're told this pretty much every day in between getting ganked by a player and his falcon alt and mining next to a player's 10 hulks. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3548
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 04:05:06 -
[2879] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:a25639 wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster. It will surely happen. However, players doing this wonGÇÖt gain any reasonable advantages by doing it. After all there are only combat skills worth 290m sp available and that includes mostly useless level 5 skills. They will not do it because of advantage but pure prestige.
Then who gives a ****.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3548
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 04:12:03 -
[2880] - Quote
Chrome Veinss wrote:
Less alt accounts would turn this into a much better game, hopefully increasing non alt account subscriptions. I cant think of anything else that can improve the game substantially than getting rid of alts. Id wager that the single worst thing you can tell a newbie is something along the lines of "you need an alt to do x" or "you're **** if you dont have an alt". Unfortunately they're told this pretty much every day in between getting ganked by a player and his falcon alt and mining next to a player's 10 hulks.
So reduce the number of existing paying accounts while hoping you'll get more than enough new accounts to cover the loss.
Remind to never invest in a business venture run by you.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1397
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 04:19:06 -
[2881] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Chrome Veinss wrote:
Less alt accounts would turn this into a much better game, hopefully increasing non alt account subscriptions. I cant think of anything else that can improve the game substantially than getting rid of alts. Id wager that the single worst thing you can tell a newbie is something along the lines of "you need an alt to do x" or "you're **** if you dont have an alt". Unfortunately they're told this pretty much every day in between getting ganked by a player and his falcon alt and mining next to a player's 10 hulks.
So reduce the number of existing paying accounts while hoping you'll get more than enough new accounts to cover the loss. Remind to never invest in a business venture run by you.
I think you are being a bit short sighted. A game that is not immersion breaking by requiring several alts will appeal to a much larger group than one that is alts-online.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1397
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 04:22:32 -
[2882] - Quote
delete
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 04:25:06 -
[2883] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Sibyyl wrote: CSM folks who oppose the change, or anyone else who's against it.
Can you point me to a cogent argument not using subjective buzzwords like "pay to win" why this change is bad?
OK, I am still catching up, but you asked nicely. There have been a few constants in Eve. Real-time for skill training and industry was one of them. Oh you can buy the item/ship and jump ahead but someone played that real time price. Same goes for the Character Bazaar. You may not have paid the time but someone did, with plex or cold hard cash. So CCP is looking at replacing it and who loses? On the surface? Nobody. We strip older characters or farmed alts and use them to fuel the newer ones. No loss, just out with the old, supercharge the new. But that is the thing. 'Stripping the old' but do you honestly think most of the skill points will go to NEW players? That it will increase retention or just make more alts of the vets? Is an increase in subs really a good thing if a lot of them are brood mares existing only to have their brains harvested on a regular basis . . . full of +5's and never ever undocking into space? Will that give us more content? Or will it just be numbers on some ledger? Will new players coming in look and see the rich instaboosting themselves into better ships and leaving the normal subscription player behind in the dust? Would you play a game like that where it was obviously a game of haves and have-nots and you were probably one of the have-nots? Or would you pour your own money in and hope it was enough to keep up? I sit in Rookie Help Chat and listen to new players trying to figure out how to play for free. How to earn that 1.2 bill within 30 days. Those types, will they stay if I tell them that not only is it unlikely but that they will have to pay extra to be decent at the game. If they listen and do pay to be able to fly . . . say an incursion or a null rat ship . . . in the first week then they will be well on the road to playing for free, right? Since increased demand for those elusive PLEX will have no effect on the market. A lot of people are saying that this is fine since it will not effect them or maybe they can use it to rearrange their own skills, clean up that shameful mining V. I just hope they are very space rich or already used to paying subscriptions. I am in the latter category. I'll still be here but IF this goes through I will be a bit more bitter and somewhat disappointed with what the game has become. Pay to win? no, but what about Pay to keep up m
Well said.
I vote NO, NEVER, CEASE AND DESIST! Do not do this CCP. |
Kinraka
Things To Do...
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 04:25:38 -
[2884] - Quote
Hope they make it separate from non allocated SP so that for skills required to use interdiction destroyers and cruisers have a lower conversion % than skills required to use guns and spaceships. i would love to have a one day old character sitting in a hictor with a cloak but i cant see that helping the game at all
[u]Sheep shagger from way back [/u]
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3548
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 04:25:49 -
[2885] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Sibyyl wrote: CSM folks who oppose the change, or anyone else who's against it.
Can you point me to a cogent argument not using subjective buzzwords like "pay to win" why this change is bad?
OK, I am still catching up, but you asked nicely. There have been a few constants in Eve. Real-time for skill training and industry was one of them. Oh you can buy the item/ship and jump ahead but someone played that real time price. Same goes for the Character Bazaar. You may not have paid the time but someone did, with plex or cold hard cash. So CCP is looking at replacing it and who loses? On the surface? Nobody. We strip older characters or farmed alts and use them to fuel the newer ones. No loss, just out with the old, supercharge the new. But that is the thing. 'Stripping the old' but do you honestly think most of the skill points will go to NEW players? That it will increase retention or just make more alts of the vets? Is an increase in subs really a good thing if a lot of them are brood mares existing only to have their brains harvested on a regular basis . . . full of +5's and never ever undocking into space? Will that give us more content? Or will it just be numbers on some ledger? Will new players coming in look and see the rich instaboosting themselves into better ships and leaving the normal subscription player behind in the dust? Would you play a game like that where it was obviously a game of haves and have-nots and you were probably one of the have-nots? Or would you pour your own money in and hope it was enough to keep up? I sit in Rookie Help Chat and listen to new players trying to figure out how to play for free. How to earn that 1.2 bill within 30 days. Those types, will they stay if I tell them that not only is it unlikely but that they will have to pay extra to be decent at the game. If they listen and do pay to be able to fly . . . say an incursion or a null rat ship . . . in the first week then they will be well on the road to playing for free, right? Since increased demand for those elusive PLEX will have no effect on the market. A lot of people are saying that this is fine since it will not effect them or maybe they can use it to rearrange their own skills, clean up that shameful mining V. I just hope they are very space rich or already used to paying subscriptions. I am in the latter category. I'll still be here but IF this goes through I will be a bit more bitter and somewhat disappointed with what the game has become. Pay to win? no, but what about Pay to keep up m
Pretty much agree if a tad overstated in a few places (instaboosting? but I get your point older more established players will just use this to secure their position in the hierarchy).
And you are right about the cost of PLEX if anything this will increase the demand in game meaning higher prices. I doubt supply is going to increase (i.e., shift outwards, as in increase at all prices) much and if players leave the game it may even decrease. PLEX prices of 1.5 billion isk? I.7 billion...2 billion?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Maetel Lithium
did he say call it bestfriends club delivered Dragon Knights Inc
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 04:34:11 -
[2886] - Quote
I do not support SP trading. I WOULD support SP reallocation. I would pay a PLEX or two to be able remap the skills I have, but this WILL make Eve a Pay-to-win game. It will become a battle between those who have money and are willing to spend it for instant success VS. Those who don't. You WILL kill your game if you do this. |
Tactus Valde
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 05:12:55 -
[2887] - Quote
Implementing the proposed feature is a bad idea, for the reasons below.
First, this will take away one of the main reasons why I chose to play EVE. I started playing EVE since Odyssey expansion, as the news of a successful decade caught my attention. Most of the games I was playing at the time had some pay to win aspect, but EVE was just perfect - neither grind nor dumping extra cash could make you better in game. Your decisions mattered, and if you made the wrong choices you were lucky if you could fix it with time. It was a sandbox as it should be. Ability to train desired skills instantly and to re-specialize skill allocation reduce the meaning of decisions.
Second, buying and selling entire characters is not the same as buying and selling ONLY the skills of those characters. Players don't inhabit eve universe, their characters do. As characters interact with each and the universe they write irreversible fingerprint of their actions into their history, some they may be proud of some the other way around. If one chose to abandon a character, all the training time put in and the skill points that come with would be abandoned as well. Price of scamming, backstabbing and losing trust was high, until the ability to transfer most of the skills into a character with a blank history.
Third, by the A || B and B || C then A || C rule, the scheme of this feature is equivalent to "pay to win" or pay to train fast. Aurum is used to obtain Skill extractors, witch create Skill Packets using player skill points. Skill packets can be traded for Isk (in game currency) and can be applied to another character. It is because Aurum is obtained using out of game monetary units, act purchasing and using skill packets to train up faster than real time is equivalent to paying to train up faster, or rather instantly in this scheme.
Finally, how does this feature actually affect me and like minded players? This feature, while not being a proper equivalent of character bazaar, brings eve closer to other Pay to Win games. I will not mention any specific titles, but the years surrounding 2015 are the times with more than one contender for Space MMO genre. I believe majority of players prefer a game where you cannot level up skills of your character instantly, not to mention later transfer it to a brand new name - using cash.
Dear CCP, please do not implement this feature into the game. Yes it may remove the need for character bazaar, but it brings many drawbacks with it. If the unknown character history may bring unpleasant experience to the new owner, how about a different solution. Perhaps in form of encouraging to background check characters on sale, or even making a CCP and/or community provided tool for the task mentioned.
Thank you. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 05:30:45 -
[2888] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Sibyyl wrote: CSM folks who oppose the change, or anyone else who's against it.
Can you point me to a cogent argument not using subjective buzzwords like "pay to win" why this change is bad?
OK, I am still catching up, but you asked nicely. There have been a few constants in Eve. Real-time for skill training and industry was one of them. Oh you can buy the item/ship and jump ahead but someone played that real time price. Same goes for the Character Bazaar. You may not have paid the time but someone did, with plex or cold hard cash. So CCP is looking at replacing it and who loses? On the surface? Nobody. We strip older characters or farmed alts and use them to fuel the newer ones. No loss, just out with the old, supercharge the new. But that is the thing. 'Stripping the old' but do you honestly think most of the skill points will go to NEW players? That it will increase retention or just make more alts of the vets? Is an increase in subs really a good thing if a lot of them are brood mares existing only to have their brains harvested on a regular basis . . . full of +5's and never ever undocking into space? Will that give us more content? Or will it just be numbers on some ledger? Will new players coming in look and see the rich instaboosting themselves into better ships and leaving the normal subscription player behind in the dust? Would you play a game like that where it was obviously a game of haves and have-nots and you were probably one of the have-nots? Or would you pour your own money in and hope it was enough to keep up? I sit in Rookie Help Chat and listen to new players trying to figure out how to play for free. How to earn that 1.2 bill within 30 days. Those types, will they stay if I tell them that not only is it unlikely but that they will have to pay extra to be decent at the game. If they listen and do pay to be able to fly . . . say an incursion or a null rat ship . . . in the first week then they will be well on the road to playing for free, right? Since increased demand for those elusive PLEX will have no effect on the market. A lot of people are saying that this is fine since it will not effect them or maybe they can use it to rearrange their own skills, clean up that shameful mining V. I just hope they are very space rich or already used to paying subscriptions. I am in the latter category. I'll still be here but IF this goes through I will be a bit more bitter and somewhat disappointed with what the game has become. Pay to win? no, but what about Pay to keep up m
So has this already been decided? Or is it still being debated?
As it is, I'm just sitting here looking at the launcher window or the forums. I'm really starting to lose all my motivation to log in anymore.
Anyone know if Diablo 3 is any good? If not, can I get some recommendations?
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
191
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 05:33:10 -
[2889] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Sibyyl wrote: CSM folks who oppose the change, or anyone else who's against it.
Can you point me to a cogent argument not using subjective buzzwords like "pay to win" why this change is bad?
OK, I am still catching up, but you asked nicely. There have been a few constants in Eve. Real-time for skill training and industry was one of them. Oh you can buy the item/ship and jump ahead but someone played that real time price. Same goes for the Character Bazaar. You may not have paid the time but someone did, with plex or cold hard cash. So CCP is looking at replacing it and who loses? On the surface? Nobody. We strip older characters or farmed alts and use them to fuel the newer ones. No loss, just out with the old, supercharge the new. But that is the thing. 'Stripping the old' but do you honestly think most of the skill points will go to NEW players? That it will increase retention or just make more alts of the vets? Is an increase in subs really a good thing if a lot of them are brood mares existing only to have their brains harvested on a regular basis . . . full of +5's and never ever undocking into space? Will that give us more content? Or will it just be numbers on some ledger? Will new players coming in look and see the rich instaboosting themselves into better ships and leaving the normal subscription player behind in the dust? Would you play a game like that where it was obviously a game of haves and have-nots and you were probably one of the have-nots? Or would you pour your own money in and hope it was enough to keep up? I sit in Rookie Help Chat and listen to new players trying to figure out how to play for free. How to earn that 1.2 bill within 30 days. Those types, will they stay if I tell them that not only is it unlikely but that they will have to pay extra to be decent at the game. If they listen and do pay to be able to fly . . . say an incursion or a null rat ship . . . in the first week then they will be well on the road to playing for free, right? Since increased demand for those elusive PLEX will have no effect on the market. A lot of people are saying that this is fine since it will not effect them or maybe they can use it to rearrange their own skills, clean up that shameful mining V. I just hope they are very space rich or already used to paying subscriptions. I am in the latter category. I'll still be here but IF this goes through I will be a bit more bitter and somewhat disappointed with what the game has become. Pay to win? no, but what about Pay to keep up m
Not only that but it's also a first step into more changes, if CCP can dream up this monstrosity I wouldn't put it past them to, down the line once the mechanics are in place and we're kinda used to it, implement stuff that gets closer and closer to pure p2w.
We're back in 2011, CCP is about to do something stupid and I/we are asking them to tell us that they're NOT going to do p2w and just as then they won't answer, they can't, because it is OBVIOUS that this initial step has future p2w changes in mind. And just as back then I lost trust in CCP, I don't trust them anymore to make the right decisions because even simply voicing this idea and getting it to a point where it's actually thought out and presented to the public is already so wrong it's frightening.
CCP has done so well the past few years, making up for 2008-2011, lots if positive and long term stuff. And then they drop this bomb on us. |
Aratosh
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 05:38:36 -
[2890] - Quote
Im so disgusted by this proposal that Im quitting the game and selling all my characters on the character bazzar.
Oh, wait .....
Nvm |
|
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 06:08:14 -
[2891] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Training system has not been bypassed by the character bazaar as someone HAD to train those chars.
and they have to with the new system, too.
Don ZOLA wrote:As people invested years of time, effort and money to be top1 in total skills, by allowing someone to buy that "title" for himself voids those efforts.
i'm sorry but no. making a character before me and keeping an active subscription isn't "investing years of time effort ad money" it's simply knowing about the game before i did. it's like pretending you being 5 years older than me is somehow an achievement. also that's level of "achievement" (******* lol), is still retained. your character's DOB will adequately demonstrate that you started the game before me. you don't need more SP than me to show that.
Don ZOLA wrote:Additional thing to take in consideration is the number of ship spinners. There are people who are subscribed and are logging in just because of the habit. They do not play much, mostly just chat and idle and even themselves cannot answer why they do not quit the game. Either because they are just bored with the game or not liking where the game is now or where it is heading/ With changing something important like this you can touch the nerve and get them to say "that`s it, screw you guys im out for real now".
this system makes it hilariously easy for people like that to do it for free - they are one of the people who benefit from this system the most. suggesting they're the ones most likely to quit is something i find amusing and absurd at the same time.
Don ZOLA wrote:Once again I will mention that something like this will not benefit many. ~1% of total players maybe. Let`s say that it is even 5% which would be highly exaggerated. You are changing fundamentals of your multi million dollars business, which will surely have impact on player base and without even being sure of the gain. Ie you know that you will have short term boom when it is implemented and older players fix their mistakes and after that the run rate will drop quite a lot. And potentially lost players could be much more than that. Not to mention that they will not just quit, hey will be unhappy customers who can spread the -buzz and stop some of potentially new players. And we can see by the shrinking player base that all those people who writes "i will quit because of this" obviously does it. So those are not empty threats.
In the end, one of the key mistakes being done here is not having "behavioralistic" understanding of their own players and their own game. Since I am limited with the number of the characters here I will make another post.
1% of the total players? more characters are traded every year than the daily PCU (25550 char trades per year, vs 24k period average since the middle of this year to now). there's a HUGE market for buying and selling whole characters. do you really think this less obstructed system is going to see a reduction in the capsuleer cattle market? really?
what fundamentals? you've always paid ccp to skip the skill grind and buy/sell SP.
a lot of your "arguments" seem to be made up "what if" scenarios based on wild fantasies. i must be honest. |
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 06:15:51 -
[2892] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Jasmine Heap wrote:I've always viewed the character bazaar as something that not many people were involved in. Perhaps I am wrong about that. I never used it myself. My fear with these changes is that it will mainstream and popularize the easy acquisition of SP. Look, perhaps my fears are unfounded, but I know how I *feel* about these changes. My gut says this is the wrong thing to do. I suppose there is a real structural problem with the "uncloseable gap" between players with hundreds of SP and new players, but simply allowing that gap to be closed on existing toons with isk/aurum/plex/money just feels wrong According to the dev blog on average about 70 characters are traded each month. Not sure if you consider that alot or not. Roughly 70 characters are traded per day, not per month. Something like 25000 a year give or take. Some more data: - Most traded characters are 50 million SP or lower. - A good portion of trades are to newer players (measured by new customers not just new accounts). Are you able to distinguish new accounts from alt accounts?
do you create a new email address for each new account? i know i don't. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 06:27:15 -
[2893] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Training system has not been bypassed by the character bazaar as someone HAD to train those chars. and they have to with the new system, too. Don ZOLA wrote:As people invested years of time, effort and money to be top1 in total skills, by allowing someone to buy that "title" for himself voids those efforts. i'm sorry but no. making a character before me and keeping an active subscription isn't "investing years of time effort ad money" it's simply knowing about the game before i did. it's like pretending you being 5 years older than me is somehow an achievement. also that's level of "achievement" (******* lol), is still retained. your character's DOB will adequately demonstrate that you started the game before me. you don't need more SP than me to show that. Don ZOLA wrote:Additional thing to take in consideration is the number of ship spinners. There are people who are subscribed and are logging in just because of the habit. They do not play much, mostly just chat and idle and even themselves cannot answer why they do not quit the game. Either because they are just bored with the game or not liking where the game is now or where it is heading/ With changing something important like this you can touch the nerve and get them to say "that`s it, screw you guys im out for real now". this system makes it hilariously easy for people like that to do it for free - they are one of the people who benefit from this system the most. suggesting they're the ones most likely to quit is something i find amusing and absurd at the same time. Don ZOLA wrote:Once again I will mention that something like this will not benefit many. ~1% of total players maybe. Let`s say that it is even 5% which would be highly exaggerated. You are changing fundamentals of your multi million dollars business, which will surely have impact on player base and without even being sure of the gain. Ie you know that you will have short term boom when it is implemented and older players fix their mistakes and after that the run rate will drop quite a lot. And potentially lost players could be much more than that. Not to mention that they will not just quit, hey will be unhappy customers who can spread the -buzz and stop some of potentially new players. And we can see by the shrinking player base that all those people who writes "i will quit because of this" obviously does it. So those are not empty threats.
In the end, one of the key mistakes being done here is not having "behavioralistic" understanding of their own players and their own game. Since I am limited with the number of the characters here I will make another post. 1% of the total players? more characters are traded every year than the daily PCU (25550 char trades per year, vs 24k period average since the middle of this year to now). there's a HUGE market for buying and selling whole characters. do you really think this less obstructed system is going to see a reduction in the capsuleer cattle market? really? what fundamentals? you've always paid ccp to skip the skill grind and buy/sell SP. a lot of your "arguments" seem to be made up "what if" scenarios based on wild fantasies. i must be honest.
Seems that only the char traders support this bad joke constructed by CCP. It's a pity that you char traders lost the ability to see the value a player has in the personalize creation of his/her char. I bought only one char from Char Bazaar at the cost of another and I regret it because the bought char clearly isn't the same as the ones I personally created & trained from the ground up with the cost of TIME. Time is the one thing that you can't purchase in RL and that especially is what make EVE special. You take that away then Eve would lose it's life force and become empty.
|
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 06:29:04 -
[2894] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:'Stripping the old' but do you honestly think most of the skill points will go to NEW players? That it will increase retention or just make more alts of the vets? Is an increase in subs really a good thing if a lot of them are brood mares existing only to have their brains harvested on a regular basis . . . full of +5's and never ever undocking into space? Will that give us more content? Or will it just be numbers on some ledger? and that's different to the current situation where people dedicate an entire character slot to a character with +5s that never undocks from a station and is logged in to once a month to inject new skillbooks and add things to a skill queue? mike - the problem already exists. it's not new.
Mike Azariah wrote:Will new players coming in look and see the rich instaboosting themselves into better ships and leaving the normal subscription player behind in the dust? Would you play a game like that where it was obviously a game of haves and have-nots and you were probably one of the have-nots? Or would you pour your own money in and hope it was enough to keep up? You already play a game like that. the 'haves' decided to purchase a character, the 'have nots' set a skill queue and logged out.
Mike Azariah wrote:Pay to win? no, but what about Pay to keep up
m
i'm kinda worried that you can't see that all of your issues already exist, mike. the issues you're expecting to see are already here, look around. |
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 06:36:19 -
[2895] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Seems that only the char traders support this bad joke constructed by CCP. It's a pity that you char traders lost the ability to see the value a player has in the personalize creation of his/her char. I bought only one char from Char Bazaar at the cost of another and I regret it because the bought char clearly isn't the same as the ones I personally created & trained from the ground up with the cost of TIME. Time is the one thing that you can't purchase in RL and that especially is what make EVE special. You take that away then Eve would lose it's life force and become empty.
and just like that - you're wrong from the start. i'm not a character trader.
your personal regrets are irrelevant. ships are a disposable tool, we build them and break them daily. pilots are no different. ships are a tool to achieve a goal. pilots are a tool to achieve a goal.
if you have a sentimental attachment to your pilot - that's cool. however, you being a sentimental sally is completely irrelevant to the discussion.
we've literally been buying and selling time in eve for ages - plex, the character bazaar, now this. pretending eve would lose it's life force because we're introducing something we already have (do we really have to keep pointing out that we've always been able to buy/sell SP?) is just hilarious.
if buying/selling SP were going to kill eve, it would have done so when the bazaar opened. clearly, eve has not died. |
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3155
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 06:41:17 -
[2896] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
i'm kinda worried that you can't see that all of your issues already exist, mike. the issues you're expecting to see are already here, look around.
Oh, I see them. But the thing is I do not condone additions that facilitate them on the premise that they already exist.
I dislike the Character Bazaar so of course I will dislike the new TSP's as they are similar (not the same, though)
That versions of something exist does not make me want to condone aids to making them easier. I could make a bunch of bad or offensive analogies at this point but I have only had a bit of gin, so no.
I do not think Eve is fair, never have. But I do not like encouraging a divide based on wealth anymore than what already exists in the game. I don't have skin directly in this, I just topped 125 mill and I do not do 'alts'. This is not about me but about the perception of the game from outside, from people coming in and from those who might leave.
Bottom line. Will this improve financials for CCP? Will it increase retention rate of new players. of old, will it sell well in the gaming media as a game that bills you monthly and then add micro transactions on top of that? If this sells well, does well in the market, then it will be a good idea. If not then it will be a bad decision. If it has no effect then it was a relative waste of dev time.
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 06:43:12 -
[2897] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Seems that only the char traders support this bad joke constructed by CCP. It's a pity that you char traders lost the ability to see the value a player has in the personalize creation of his/her char. I bought only one char from Char Bazaar at the cost of another and I regret it because the bought char clearly isn't the same as the ones I personally created & trained from the ground up with the cost of TIME. Time is the one thing that you can't purchase in RL and that especially is what make EVE special. You take that away then Eve would lose it's life force and become empty.
and just like that - you're wrong from the start. i'm not a character trader. your personal regrets are irrelevant. ships are a disposable tool, we build them and break them daily. pilots are no different. ships are a tool to achieve a goal. pilots are a tool to achieve a goal. if you have a sentimental attachment to your pilot - that's cool. however, you being a sentimental sally is completely irrelevant to the discussion. we've literally been buying and selling time in eve for ages - plex, the character bazaar, now this. pretending eve would lose it's life force because we're introducing something we already have (do we really have to keep pointing out that we've always been able to buy/sell SP?) is just hilarious. if buying/selling SP were going to kill eve, it would have done so when the bazaar opened. clearly, eve has not died.
Okay, I've said what I had to say regarding this. If it goes through, I move on to something else. Like minded people like you would all that'll be left in Eve. Enjoy your SP Farmers Online Eve!
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3029
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 06:43:42 -
[2898] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:I see, so it's the money CCP is making from Character Bazaar that's spawned this greed. Hardly. More like us on the ground pointing out existing paths of monetization CCP can and should cash in on. Both to support the game and expand it. Sorry if your SP defines you, but if you really push the core playerbase who aren't self-centered imbeciles, they're probably willing to do just about anything to keep this game alive. Watching you flail about is not unrewarding in itself :)
Dear Marsha, Mr Dave Stark is handling his one man crusade in favour of the proposed changed with some style.
You are just rude and aggressive.
Perhaps you need to take an extended coffee break away from posting on this topic.
Kind regards.
This is not a signature.
|
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:02:05 -
[2899] - Quote
ok guys.
i just mailed this directly to mike, but sit the **** down and listen to this.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3p78oo/good_point_for_sp_packets/
this reddit post basically said "instead of being a risk averse pussy i'm going to pvp my heart out and replace the lost SP from not haivng +5s with skill packets).
I pointed out at 80m SP that'll cost you 2bn per month.
now, here's where **** gets interesting.
attributes suck, and learning implants suck more. yes?
the guy on reddit says "Just make the extractors LP store items to replace learning implants. Two birds, one stone." you're not paying real cash for this any more. that's good, right?
now, let's add a cooldown to this ****. hell, even give it diminishing returns if you want to allow new players to "close the gap" with older players.
Here's what we end up with.
1) A system that doesn't cost any one a penny of RL currency. (unless they choose to go plex > isk > sp. but that's optional) 2) a solution to the "learning implant problem". 3) SP injection on demand. 4) nobody training faster than they would currently. 5) probably a load of other stuff.
now, i've just woken up so this could be completely dreadful. feel free to tear it apart. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:07:23 -
[2900] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote: I bought only one char from Char Bazaar at the cost of another and I regret it because the bought char clearly isn't the same as the ones I personally created & trained from the ground up with the cost of TIME.
You might had more positive experience if skill trading system already existed.
Daniela Doran wrote: Time is the one thing that you can't purchase in RL and that especially is what make EVE special.
Also it's unbreakable barrier which divided players not by experience and true skill but by time spending regardless of activity inside the game. |
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
417
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:12:23 -
[2901] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:So has this already been decided? Or is it still being debated? If players are postive to the change, and it seems they are, it will be introduced. I don't think it will be large change for new players. Someone must be really interested to the game to spend large chunk of money to "catch up with vets". If for example, Dave Stark want to get rid off his mining V it won't affect my gameplay at all. CCP found new way to earn money. We see EvE as game, they as job. Skill trading will destroy avatar based training system? So what? Nothing is set in stone. People are willing to pay for the service so CCP open this gate for them. Will it change the game significantly? I don't think so. Will it change the way I perceive CCP and the game? Definitely. I won't be as much attached to it. This is first step to destroy fundaments of the game.
Ps. D3 is good, it's getting better with every patch.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:30:48 -
[2902] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Sibyyl wrote: CSM folks who oppose the change, or anyone else who's against it.
Can you point me to a cogent argument not using subjective buzzwords like "pay to win" why this change is bad?
OK, I am still catching up, but you asked nicely. There have been a few constants in Eve. Real-time for skill training and industry was one of them. Oh you can buy the item/ship and jump ahead but someone played that real time price. Same goes for the Character Bazaar. You may not have paid the time but someone did, with plex or cold hard cash. So CCP is looking at replacing it and who loses? On the surface? Nobody. We strip older characters or farmed alts and use them to fuel the newer ones. No loss, just out with the old, supercharge the new. But that is the thing. 'Stripping the old' but do you honestly think most of the skill points will go to NEW players? That it will increase retention or just make more alts of the vets? Is an increase in subs really a good thing if a lot of them are brood mares existing only to have their brains harvested on a regular basis . . . full of +5's and never ever undocking into space? Will that give us more content? Or will it just be numbers on some ledger? Will new players coming in look and see the rich instaboosting themselves into better ships and leaving the normal subscription player behind in the dust? Would you play a game like that where it was obviously a game of haves and have-nots and you were probably one of the have-nots? Or would you pour your own money in and hope it was enough to keep up? I sit in Rookie Help Chat and listen to new players trying to figure out how to play for free. How to earn that 1.2 bill within 30 days. Those types, will they stay if I tell them that not only is it unlikely but that they will have to pay extra to be decent at the game. If they listen and do pay to be able to fly . . . say an incursion or a null rat ship . . . in the first week then they will be well on the road to playing for free, right? Since increased demand for those elusive PLEX will have no effect on the market. A lot of people are saying that this is fine since it will not effect them or maybe they can use it to rearrange their own skills, clean up that shameful mining V. I just hope they are very space rich or already used to paying subscriptions. I am in the latter category. I'll still be here but IF this goes through I will be a bit more bitter and somewhat disappointed with what the game has become. Pay to win? no, but what about Pay to keep up m Mike, what personal reasone you have to dislike this idea? How it affect you personally?
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
194
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:35:50 -
[2903] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:So has this already been decided? Or is it still being debated? If players are postive to the change, and it seems they are, it will be introduced. I don't think it will be large change for new players. Someone must be really interested to the game to spend large chunk of money to "catch up with vets". If for example, Dave Stark want to get rid off his mining V it won't affect my gameplay at all. CCP found new way to earn money. We see EvE as game, they as job. Skill trading will destroy avatar based training system? So what? Nothing is set in stone. People are willing to pay for the service so CCP open this gate for them. Will it change the game significantly? I don't think so. Will it change the way I perceive CCP and the game? Definitely. I won't be as much attached to it. This is first step to destroy fundaments of the game. Ps. D3 is good, it's getting better with every patch.
Dave has expressed a personal monetary interest in these changes so it's probably not surprising that he doesn't... "understand" the issues because he doesn't WANT to. Instead he's trying to spin it using all kinds of bogus logic, reasoning and derailing into semantics.
He's not the only one doing this, Marsha Mallow for instance also stated to have a personal interest but at least they were open about it I guess. Still, per Malcanis' bio: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" applies and their posts should be seen as such.
He's not interested in actually discussing it, he's interested in trying to beat people into submission through spam posting and bogus logic. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4181
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:35:59 -
[2904] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:1) A system that doesn't cost any one a penny of RL currency. (unless they choose to go plex > isk > sp. but that's optional) I initially was in the 'CCP is greedy' crowd.
After some thought, I realize that CCP is also taking some risk with this thing.
Today, not losing out on SP was an incentive to not unsub accounts you're not using so much.
Tomorrow, you could just unsub and then resub and use skill packets if necessary.
Those skill packets will at least partially come from draining unnecessary SP from accounts that ALREADY paid their subs years ago.
So in conclusion, CCP risks a loss of revenue vs. today if they don't make some money out of this.
Another example of this. I'm currently training Minmatar Dread V on an alt that I may not actually use for some time because RL. I could drain the necessary SP out of other alts and attain that skill immediately on that alt while mothballing him 1 month earlier.
In other words, making SP accumulation much more flexible comes with a risk of losing subscription months for CCP.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Yongtau Naskingar
Yongtau Naskingar Corporation
109
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:37:40 -
[2905] - Quote
This will take the fun out of Skill Training Online. Planning skill queues and such will be just a way to save money / ISK. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1680
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:41:36 -
[2906] - Quote
I bought my first character when i was at 4mil sp, jumped to 42mil sp, was always my intention to buy a character as soon as i heard about the bazaar, but only once i would buy a main character, buying that character made me relevant in fleets and i had much more fun with 42mil sp than i did with 4mil sp, it didnt make me that much better at the game but it certainly made one hell of a difference.
I really dont see much of an issue with this as my now highish sp doesnt really matter to me anymore, i dont really even bother looking at my skills unless the fc's decide on a new doctrine which i cant already fly but i feel much better about having to invest little to no time training skills to get that ship.
Sometimes a small boost in skills really makes the game so much more enjoyable
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:43:02 -
[2907] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:So has this already been decided? Or is it still being debated? If players are postive to the change, and it seems they are, it will be introduced. I don't think it will be large change for new players. Someone must be really interested to the game to spend large chunk of money to "catch up with vets". If for example, Dave Stark want to get rid off his mining V it won't affect my gameplay at all. CCP found new way to earn money. We see EvE as game, they as job. Skill trading will destroy avatar based training system? So what? Nothing is set in stone. People are willing to pay for the service so CCP open this gate for them. Will it change the game significantly? I don't think so. Will it change the way I perceive CCP and the game? Definitely. I won't be as much attached to it. This is first step to destroy fundaments of the game. Ps. D3 is good, it's getting better with every patch. Dave has expressed a personal monetary interest in these changes so it's probably not surprising that he doesn't... "understand" the issues because he doesn't WANT to. Instead he's trying to spin it using all kinds of bogus logic, reasoning and derailing into semantics. He's not the only one doing this, Marsha Mallow for instance also stated to have a personal interest but at least they were open about it I guess. Still, per Malcanis' bio: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" applies and their posts should be seen as such. He's not interested in actually discussing it, he's interested in trying to beat people into submission through spam posting and bogus logic.
i could make isk the exact same way even if this idea doesn't happen.
instead of selling SP directly, i'll just sell one of the characters from my PI account once i've appropriately trained it.
i understand the issues precisely, and they already exist. if "that already exists" is bogus logic, i honestly don't know what to say to you.
people who have a personal interest in this are already benefiting from buying/selling SP since we can already do it.
my isk/hour will be unchanged whether we get this change or not - pretending i'm posting because i'm somehow trying to protect an income stream is hilariously incorrect. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25384
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:45:22 -
[2908] - Quote
While I'm against the proposal as it currently stands, there's not enough information available yet for me to utterly condemn it.
I think that CCP deliberately posted a vague summary of something they knew would be controversial in order to gain as much feedback as possible, both extreme arguments for and against and otherwise. The proposal will change, it will be tweaked and it will be republished. Alternatively they could don their $70 monocles, ignore all feedback, then release something hideously out of whack that produces SP out of thin air (this doesn't appear to be the case) just to spite us.
If it's aimed at retaining newer players I think that the dev time would be better spent further revising the NPE which is biased towards pushing new players towards stagnant "levelling up their Raven" style content", which they know is poor for retention; rather than the more dynamic player driven stuff which keeps them here. It doesn't do enough to encourage newbies to seek out other players, instead it leads them into a solo playstyle without explaining A: the nature of the game and B: the number of options that are available to them.
Until more detail emerges I'm still going with my initial stance of hell no. I've always said I'd drop my account if anything that smacked of PLEX for SP came to be and in its current state the proposal does somewhat smack of it. My initial thoughts were to do exactly that, but after reading the arguments for and against, listening to the discussion on various twitch broadcasts etc, and some consideration, I've delayed that decision to see how this plays out.
TL;DR CCP needs to get this right, it's a risky move given past events like the misbegotten abortion of an idea that became Incarna.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
196
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:46:17 -
[2909] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:So has this already been decided? Or is it still being debated? If players are postive to the change, and it seems they are, it will be introduced. I don't think it will be large change for new players. Someone must be really interested to the game to spend large chunk of money to "catch up with vets". If for example, Dave Stark want to get rid off his mining V it won't affect my gameplay at all. CCP found new way to earn money. We see EvE as game, they as job. Skill trading will destroy avatar based training system? So what? Nothing is set in stone. People are willing to pay for the service so CCP open this gate for them. Will it change the game significantly? I don't think so. Will it change the way I perceive CCP and the game? Definitely. I won't be as much attached to it. This is first step to destroy fundaments of the game. Ps. D3 is good, it's getting better with every patch. Dave has expressed a personal monetary interest in these changes so it's probably not surprising that he doesn't... "understand" the issues because he doesn't WANT to. Instead he's trying to spin it using all kinds of bogus logic, reasoning and derailing into semantics. He's not the only one doing this, Marsha Mallow for instance also stated to have a personal interest but at least they were open about it I guess. Still, per Malcanis' bio: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" applies and their posts should be seen as such. He's not interested in actually discussing it, he's interested in trying to beat people into submission through spam posting and bogus logic. i could make isk the exact same way even if this idea doesn't happen. instead of selling SP directly, i'll just sell one of the characters from my PI account once i've appropriately trained it. i understand the issues precisely, and they already exist. if "that already exists" is bogus logic, i honestly don't know what to say to you. people who have a personal interest in this are already benefiting from buying/selling SP since we can already do it. my isk/hour will be unchanged whether we get this change or not - pretending i'm posting because i'm somehow trying to protect an income stream is hilariously incorrect.
Keep at it, I'm sure if you post it often enough people will agree with you. |
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:47:31 -
[2910] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:I've always said I'd drop my account if anything that smacked of PLEX for SP came to be
how much game time did you pay for in advance if your account is still active after the introduction of the characer bazaar? |
|
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:48:20 -
[2911] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Keep at it, I'm sure if you post it often enough people will agree with you.
i don't need people to agree with me.
their agreement doesn't change the facts of the situation. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
100
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:48:57 -
[2912] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Training system has not been bypassed by the character bazaar as someone HAD to train those chars. and they have to with the new system, too. Don ZOLA wrote:As people invested years of time, effort and money to be top1 in total skills, by allowing someone to buy that "title" for himself voids those efforts. i'm sorry but no. making a character before me and keeping an active subscription isn't "investing years of time effort ad money" it's simply knowing about the game before i did. it's like pretending you being 5 years older than me is somehow an achievement. also that's level of "achievement" (******* lol), is still retained. your character's DOB will adequately demonstrate that you started the game before me. you don't need more SP than me to show that. Don ZOLA wrote:Additional thing to take in consideration is the number of ship spinners. There are people who are subscribed and are logging in just because of the habit. They do not play much, mostly just chat and idle and even themselves cannot answer why they do not quit the game. Either because they are just bored with the game or not liking where the game is now or where it is heading/ With changing something important like this you can touch the nerve and get them to say "that`s it, screw you guys im out for real now". this system makes it hilariously easy for people like that to do it for free - they are one of the people who benefit from this system the most. suggesting they're the ones most likely to quit is something i find amusing and absurd at the same time. Don ZOLA wrote:Once again I will mention that something like this will not benefit many. ~1% of total players maybe. Let`s say that it is even 5% which would be highly exaggerated. You are changing fundamentals of your multi million dollars business, which will surely have impact on player base and without even being sure of the gain. Ie you know that you will have short term boom when it is implemented and older players fix their mistakes and after that the run rate will drop quite a lot. And potentially lost players could be much more than that. Not to mention that they will not just quit, hey will be unhappy customers who can spread the -buzz and stop some of potentially new players. And we can see by the shrinking player base that all those people who writes "i will quit because of this" obviously does it. So those are not empty threats.
In the end, one of the key mistakes being done here is not having "behavioralistic" understanding of their own players and their own game. Since I am limited with the number of the characters here I will make another post. 1% of the total players? more characters are traded every year than the daily PCU (25550 char trades per year, vs 24k period average since the middle of this year to now). there's a HUGE market for buying and selling whole characters. do you really think this less obstructed system is going to see a reduction in the capsuleer cattle market? really? what fundamentals? you've always paid ccp to skip the skill grind and buy/sell SP. a lot of your "arguments" seem to be made up "what if" scenarios based on wild fantasies. i must be honest.
Be nice if an ISD could give you two your own thread so we could see what the rest of the playerbase think without wading through pages and pages of your tedious spamming
|
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:52:00 -
[2913] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Be nice if an ISD could give you two your own thread so we could see what the rest of the playerbase think without wading through pages and pages of your tedious spamming
at least our posts are discussing the topic rather than whining that we're discussing the topic. don't be "that guy". |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:54:25 -
[2914] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:So has this already been decided? Or is it still being debated? If players are postive to the change, and it seems they are, it will be introduced. I don't think it will be large change for new players. Someone must be really interested to the game to spend large chunk of money to "catch up with vets". If for example, Dave Stark want to get rid off his mining V it won't affect my gameplay at all. CCP found new way to earn money. We see EvE as game, they as job. Skill trading will destroy avatar based training system? So what? Nothing is set in stone. People are willing to pay for the service so CCP open this gate for them. Will it change the game significantly? I don't think so. Will it change the way I perceive CCP and the game? Definitely. I won't be as much attached to it. This is first step to destroy fundaments of the game. Ps. D3 is good, it's getting better with every patch.
Good to know and Thank you. D3 was the one game I kept my eye on but never had the time to get into.....until now. I'll check it out.
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25384
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:54:34 -
[2915] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:I've always said I'd drop my account if anything that smacked of PLEX for SP came to be how much game time did you pay for in advance if your account is still active after the introduction of the characer bazaar? Character bazaar was already a thing when I started, had been for over a year.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:56:43 -
[2916] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:I've always said I'd drop my account if anything that smacked of PLEX for SP came to be how much game time did you pay for in advance if your account is still active after the introduction of the characer bazaar? Character bazaar was already a thing when I started, had been for over a year.
so, buying and selling SP has never bothered you and you're just blowing hot air? |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:58:21 -
[2917] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:So has this already been decided? Or is it still being debated? If players are postive to the change, and it seems they are, it will be introduced. I don't think it will be large change for new players. Someone must be really interested to the game to spend large chunk of money to "catch up with vets". If for example, Dave Stark want to get rid off his mining V it won't affect my gameplay at all. CCP found new way to earn money. We see EvE as game, they as job. Skill trading will destroy avatar based training system? So what? Nothing is set in stone. People are willing to pay for the service so CCP open this gate for them. Will it change the game significantly? I don't think so. Will it change the way I perceive CCP and the game? Definitely. I won't be as much attached to it. This is first step to destroy fundaments of the game. Ps. D3 is good, it's getting better with every patch. Dave has expressed a personal monetary interest in these changes so it's probably not surprising that he doesn't... "understand" the issues because he doesn't WANT to. Instead he's trying to spin it using all kinds of bogus logic, reasoning and derailing into semantics. He's not the only one doing this, Marsha Mallow for instance also stated to have a personal interest but at least they were open about it I guess. Still, per Malcanis' bio: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" applies and their posts should be seen as such. He's not interested in actually discussing it, he's interested in trying to beat people into submission through spam posting and bogus logic.
LOL, Dead on. |
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:59:10 -
[2918] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:LOL, Dead on. aside from y'know, the bit where my income is completely unrelated to this idea. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
197
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:05:41 -
[2919] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:LOL, Dead on. aside from y'know, the bit where my income is completely unrelated to this idea.
Yeah apart from the fact that you don't have to specialise and cater to specific uses/users anymore and make use of remaps, instead you can just skill "whatever" and sell it as such. You know, that's kinda the same thing.
It's not very surprising that you're trying to spin it otherwise though, it fits your spam posting. |
shaun 27
Bulldog Industry
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:07:47 -
[2920] - Quote
Question you lot got to ask yourself is this isnt aimed at new players at all. If that was the case then they would have capped skill point injection to say 40million sp character, After 40million sp the skill packets no longer work. 40 mil sp i think is perfect to do alot of activities. I mean you guys seriously think new players long term would be able to afford buying skillpoints this way ??? You think their wont be some market manipulation or some very rich avatars in game that earn bils a month will use their isk to buy these?
This is purely a money grab from ccp and to kill isk, plexs,skillpoints in game.
You know when i started in 2006 i couldn't jump into a ship which does 350 to 400+dps in like 3 or 4 days that being a gila. Granted it wont run lvl 4 missions but it works good for lvl 3 missions and angel and gus anomalies, i know because im useing it on an old production alts with no sp in combat skills or lvl 5 basic skills.
So you could argue they need the sp because they need to get into x ship for a certain alliance doctrine. Well any decent alliance will also have set-ups for newish players. Look at some of the stats on the ships these days compared to 2006 you know the t1 cruisers and frigates. Even i use these ships these days even though i have well over 100mil sp because quite simply their alot more cost effective then t2.
If this so called new player retention is so bad after you introduced the above ships over the last two years could it be that these new players get bored because quite simply you messed the game up where 0.0 is safer then empire. Industry a noob can built t2 ships with hardly any skills. I mean these guys literately already got a hundreads more options then i ever had when i started. All i bloody had when i started was a poorly fitted brutix and belt ratting for a few months when i was training learning skills up in ore regions.
|
|
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:10:13 -
[2921] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:LOL, Dead on. aside from y'know, the bit where my income is completely unrelated to this idea. Yeah apart from the fact that you don't have to specialise and cater to specific uses/users anymore and make use of remaps, instead you can just skill "whatever" and sell it as such. You know, that's kinda the same thing. It's not very surprising that you're trying to spin it otherwise though, it fits your spam posting.
isk is being exchanged for sp regardless of whether i'm doing it via the bazaar or by the new system.
whether i log in to update a skill queue or extract SP makes no odds. one isn't more effort than the other. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
100
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:11:17 -
[2922] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Be nice if an ISD could give you two your own thread so we could see what the rest of the playerbase think without wading through pages and pages of your tedious spamming
at least our posts are discussing the topic rather than whining that we're discussing the topic. don't be "that guy".
Neither of you have said anything new for the last 100 pages or so, but I apologise, don't let me stop you.
|
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:12:16 -
[2923] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Be nice if an ISD could give you two your own thread so we could see what the rest of the playerbase think without wading through pages and pages of your tedious spamming
at least our posts are discussing the topic rather than whining that we're discussing the topic. don't be "that guy". Neither of you have said anything new for the last 100 pages or so, but I apologise, don't let me stop you.
most people haven't said anything new since the character bazaar was introduced. |
Astroyka
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
182
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:13:25 -
[2924] - Quote
General Lootit wrote: Mike, what personal reasone you have to dislike this idea? How it will affects you personally?
I really hope Mike is not speaking too much from personal opinion, he's a CSM and should be speaking from a wider viewpoint, which I believe he is.
Astroyka
A Mirkur Draug'Tyr pilot, fighting against slavery in New Eden
www.astroyka.net
@Astroyka
|
shaun 27
Bulldog Industry
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:14:15 -
[2925] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Be nice if an ISD could give you two your own thread so we could see what the rest of the playerbase think without wading through pages and pages of your tedious spamming
at least our posts are discussing the topic rather than whining that we're discussing the topic. don't be "that guy". Neither of you have said anything new for the last 100 pages or so, but I apologise, don't let me stop you. most people haven't said anything new since the character bazaar was introduced.
And most people will have most likely missed this because you added an extra 50 pages for them to read. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:14:50 -
[2926] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:1) A system that doesn't cost any one a penny of RL currency. (unless they choose to go plex > isk > sp. but that's optional) I initially was in the 'CCP is greedy' crowd. After some thought, I realize that CCP is also taking some risk with this thing. Today, not losing out on SP was an incentive to not unsub accounts you're not using so much. Tomorrow, you could just unsub and then resub and use skill packets if necessary. Those skill packets will at least partially come from draining unnecessary SP from accounts that ALREADY paid their subs years ago. So in conclusion, CCP risks a loss of revenue vs. today if they don't make some money out of this. Another example of this. I'm currently training Minmatar Dread V on an alt that I may not actually use for some time because RL. I could drain the necessary SP out of other alts and attain that skill immediately on that alt while mothballing him 1 month earlier. In other words, making SP accumulation much more flexible comes with a risk of losing subscription months for CCP.
They are gonna lose more in the long run. There are still plenty of veteran players who's unsubbed atm waiting to get back into Eve when the time's right. What do you think they'll do when they discover what's become of their Eve. Just how do you think they're gonna react when they come to realize that their 100+ SP char that took them 4-5 years to create no longer possess any distinction from the rest of the "Specialized SP bought Chars" that can fly and do exactly what he can do that was created in only half a year? It will be clear sign to them that Eve has turned their backs on all the faithful veteran players and he will back down and leave Eve forever since he knows now that there will be no reason to ever come back. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25384
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:15:48 -
[2927] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:I've always said I'd drop my account if anything that smacked of PLEX for SP came to be how much game time did you pay for in advance if your account is still active after the introduction of the characer bazaar? Character bazaar was already a thing when I started, had been for over a year. so, buying and selling SP has never bothered you and you're just blowing hot air? It's a polarising topic which leads to extremes of opinion, but it's unlike you to be this rabid and obtuse Dave.
I started playing Eve and it was a fact of life, it was something I had no say in. I do have a say in the discussion about the changes that are being proposed; I will participate in that discussion and I reserve the right to change my opinion as more becomes known.
I've posted my initial reaction, not a carefully considered opinion; my opinion is open to revision as time goes by. I want to see more detail and how this plays out before I make an uniformed choice and stop playing a game I've enjoyed for a long time.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:19:35 -
[2928] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:So has this already been decided? Or is it still being debated? If players are postive to the change, and it seems they are, it will be introduced. I don't think it will be large change for new players. Someone must be really interested to the game to spend large chunk of money to "catch up with vets". If for example, Dave Stark want to get rid off his mining V it won't affect my gameplay at all. CCP found new way to earn money. We see EvE as game, they as job. Skill trading will destroy avatar based training system? So what? Nothing is set in stone. People are willing to pay for the service so CCP open this gate for them. Will it change the game significantly? I don't think so. Will it change the way I perceive CCP and the game? Definitely. I won't be as much attached to it. This is first step to destroy fundaments of the game. Ps. D3 is good, it's getting better with every patch. Dave has expressed a personal monetary interest in these changes so it's probably not surprising that he doesn't... "understand" the issues because he doesn't WANT to. Instead he's trying to spin it using all kinds of bogus logic, reasoning and derailing into semantics. He's not the only one doing this, Marsha Mallow for instance also stated to have a personal interest but at least they were open about it I guess. Still, per Malcanis' bio: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" applies and their posts should be seen as such. He's not interested in actually discussing it, he's interested in trying to beat people into submission through spam posting and bogus logic. i could make isk the exact same way even if this idea doesn't happen. instead of selling SP directly, i'll just sell one of the characters from my PI account once i've appropriately trained it. i understand the issues precisely, and they already exist. if "that already exists" is bogus logic, i honestly don't know what to say to you. people who have a personal interest in this are already benefiting from buying/selling SP since we can already do it. my isk/hour will be unchanged whether we get this change or not - pretending i'm posting because i'm somehow trying to protect an income stream is hilariously incorrect.
Yea I know cause I think you're a Dev alt trying to protect your RL income.
There's definitely a motive somewhere.
|
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:22:51 -
[2929] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:I've always said I'd drop my account if anything that smacked of PLEX for SP came to be how much game time did you pay for in advance if your account is still active after the introduction of the characer bazaar? Character bazaar was already a thing when I started, had been for over a year. so, buying and selling SP has never bothered you and you're just blowing hot air? It's a polarising topic which leads to extremes of opinion, but it's unlike you to be this rabid and obtuse Dave. I started playing Eve and it was a fact of life, it was something I had no say in. I do have a say in the discussion about the changes that are being proposed; I will participate in that discussion and I reserve the right to change my opinion as more becomes known. I've posted my initial reaction, not a carefully considered opinion; my opinion is open to revision as time goes by. I want to see more detail and how this plays out before I make an uniformed choice and stop playing a game I've enjoyed for a long time.
you did have a say in it - if the idea of purchasing SP abhorred you that much your say would have been to never have given CCP any of your money or time to begin with.
I just find people claiming "i'm quitting because you can buy SP" to be hypocrites - which wind me up immensely. they have always been able to buy and sell SP, and they're still here. so claiming they will quit is entirely disingenuous or hypocritical.
i mean i get it - people might not like the idea. that's totally fine. however pretending because it's "because you can buy and sell SP and it's gonna kill eve"? pull the other one. |
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:26:25 -
[2930] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Yea I know cause I think you're a Dev alt trying to protect your RL income.
There's definitely a motive somewhere.
considering i'm not even defending the idea.
i'm just not crying that the sky is falling. if i want to buy and sell SP i can do it without this idea, and i could probably turn a profit from it if i bothered. |
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4045
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:28:27 -
[2931] - Quote
Well, apparently this pay-to-win idea is becoming a turd that's gonna be shoved down our throat we want it or don't. So let's negotiate how large, soft and smelly should be the turd.
I *see* how helping new players to buy themselves into higher SP early in the game could be good for the players, theoretically, even for those who don't belong to an alliance which can fund them for free.
What I don't see is any need that certain players backed up by large RL pockets or large ingame alliances can "pay to win" indefinitely over players who go the "slow way" and merely pay their monthly sub.
So here's the thing: to hell with diminishing returns and put a hard cap on the use of skill packages. Say, 10 million SP, roughly the first 6 months of skilling, so players who just pay a subscription to CCP never are left behind by more than 6 months compared to those who paid to win.
And yet I think that it's utterly stupid to tell your subscribers that their money is not good enough and they should be paying you more to not be left behind...
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:33:10 -
[2932] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:While I'm against the proposal as it currently stands, there's not enough information available yet for me to utterly condemn it.
I think that CCP deliberately posted a vague summary of something they knew would be controversial in order to gain as much feedback as possible, both extreme arguments for and against and otherwise. The proposal will change, it will be tweaked and it will be republished. Alternatively they could don their $70 monocles and $1000 pants, ignore all feedback, then release something hideously out of whack that produces SP out of thin air (this doesn't appear to be the case) just to spite us.
If it's aimed at retaining newer players I think that the dev time would be better spent further revising the NPE which is biased towards pushing new players towards stagnant "levelling up their Raven" style content", which they know is poor for retention; rather than the more dynamic player driven stuff which keeps them here. It doesn't do enough to encourage newbies to seek out other players, instead it leads them into a solo playstyle without explaining A: the nature of the game and B: giving them an idea of the number of options that are available to them.
Until more detail emerges I'm still going with my initial stance of hell no. I've always said I'd drop my account if anything that smacked of PLEX for SP came to be and in its current state the proposal does somewhat smack of it. My initial thoughts were to do exactly that, but after reading the arguments for and against, listening to the discussion on various twitch broadcasts etc, and some consideration, I've delayed that decision to see how this plays out.
TL;DR If they're going ahead with this then CCP needs to get this right, it's a risky move given past events like the misbegotten abortion of an idea that became Incarna.
A very insightful post that's got me thinking. Question is, how long do we have to wait until CCP gives a verdict on this decision? My accounts are still active for another 84 days with no plans of renewal atm. Hopefully what you said is true and CCP decides to abort this atrocious idea in a respectful time frame. But like you, all the players can do now is wait and see how it all pans out. If a Dev shows up asking for an alternative, I'll be glad to propose one for them that won't destroy the game's core. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:33:27 -
[2933] - Quote
Astroyka wrote:General Lootit wrote: Mike, what personal reasone you have to dislike this idea? How it will affects you personally?
I really hope Mike is not speaking too much from personal opinion, he's a CSM and should be speaking from a wider viewpoint, which I believe he is. I believe opinions of players represented by themselves in this thread more than enough. I asked this question because if someone have no personal reason hence he hide it to be less vulnerable to arguments and to be able speaking about more abstact things which make illusion that he giviving relevant arguments. |
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:35:59 -
[2934] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:I'll be glad to propose one for them that won't destroy the game's core.
like This? |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
164
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:36:50 -
[2935] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Well, apparently this pay-to-win idea is becoming a turd that's gonna be shoved down our throat we want it or don't. So let's negotiate how large, soft and smelly should be the turd. I *see* how helping new players to buy themselves into higher SP early in the game could be good for the players, theoretically, even for those who don't belong to an alliance which can fund them for free. What I don't see is any need that certain players backed up by large RL pockets or large ingame alliances can "pay to win" indefinitely over players who go the "slow way" and merely pay their monthly sub.So here's the thing: to hell with diminishing returns and put a hard cap on the use of skill packages. Say, 10 million SP, roughly the first 6 months of skilling, so players who just pay a subscription to CCP never are left behind by more than 6 months compared to those who paid to win. And yet I think that it's utterly stupid to tell your subscribers that their money is not good enough and they should be paying you more to not be left behind...
I don't eat turd, I flush it down the toilet.
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25385
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:41:36 -
[2936] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:you did have a say in it - if the idea of purchasing SP abhorred you that much your say would have been to never have given CCP any of your money or time to begin with. Yeah, but no. As a new player I had absolutely no idea what the character bazaar entailed, by the time I did know Eve had already grabbed me by the short and curlies and I accept it as a necessary evil in order to curb a black market.
Quote:I just find people claiming "i'm quitting because you can buy SP" to be hypocrites - which wind me up immensely. they have always been able to buy and sell SP, and they're still here. so claiming they will quit is entirely disingenuous or hypocritical. Depends on how you view the character bazaar, some see it as purchasing time rather than SP. It's a fine distinction, but it does exist.
Quote:i mean i get it - people might not like the idea. that's totally fine. however pretending because it's "because you can buy and sell SP and it's gonna kill eve"? pull the other one. I think the lack of detail has something to do with that, I've already revised my opinion somewhat after looking into it further and listening to what others have to say. Like I said I want to see how this plays out, I'm don't like the idea and think that the dev time would be better spent elsewhere; but I know that it's open to revision and see both the potential upsides and downsides.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4181
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:42:55 -
[2937] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:They are gonna lose more in the long run. There are still plenty of veteran players who's unsubbed atm waiting to get back into Eve when the time's right. What do you think they'll do when they discover what's become of their Eve. Just how do you think they're gonna react when they come to realize that their 100+ SP char that took them 4-5 years to create no longer possess any distinction from the rest of the "Specialized SP bought Chars" that can fly and do exactly what he can do that was created in only half a year? It will be clear sign to them that Eve has turned their backs on all the faithful veteran players and he will back down and leave Eve forever since he knows now that there will be no reason to ever come back. Can't give you an answer on this, that train of thought is alien to me.
When I fly, I don't ever think about how much SP or ISK my opponents have ot how they've acquired it. How they've acquired it is particularly meaningless to me.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:44:19 -
[2938] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Depends on how you view the character bazaar, some see it as purchasing time rather than SP. It's a fine distinction, but it does exist.
that's still the case here. an SP packet still represents at least 7.7 days of some one else's time. it's not like this SP is coming out of thin air, it's coming out of some one's head. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25385
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:45:35 -
[2939] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Hopefully what you said is true and CCP decides to abort this atrocious idea in a respectful time frame. No, no, no, no.. no. You misunderstand me, I said that CCP need to get it right.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Jared Khanar
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:45:38 -
[2940] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Well, apparently this pay-to-win idea is becoming a turd that's gonna be shoved down our throat we want it or don't. So let's negotiate how large, soft and smelly should be the turd.
Well, thats a nice thinking :) Really , I like it.
If you see the waiter peeing in your beer it-¦s absolutly ok to tell him "please do this an hour bevore you serve it, so the pee gets cold - cause warm pee warms also up my beer and that doesn-¦t taste well...". You can also decide that pee is not bad, because it doesn-¦t kill you, so don-¦t panic if the waiter pees also in your milk and cocktails. That-¦s ok, because you are already drinking said liquid in other forms. And if he does, you should also accept the rise in payments your waiter charges. He is clearly rising the value of your drinks, providing additional service, so charging not only their related prices is naturally and good. And how happy we are to notice that our waiter can only pee that much. Everyone of us can now sell their pee, because theres clearly a demand for this ... No one with a brain could refuse, it !? Better discuss the way he shakes of. Because if it-¦s to the right, thats absolutly shocking and not acceptable. How dumb he could be to do this!? But if he shakes right - it-¦s absolutly ok. Noone could doubt this. It-¦s the only way this should be done...
But some people don-¦t like drinking pee, even if its mixed with spices and honey. They simply choose to leave... |
|
Norn Thilnir
Naragnir
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:48:03 -
[2941] - Quote
As someone who has started a new main character (slowly crawling towards 5M SP), all I can say is that introducing SP for isk breaks an interesting part of the game for me. It may sound silly, but making intelligent skill training choices without the possibility of a skill remap is fun. Other games I enjoyed in the past were equally ruthless with regards to character choices.
I feel SP for isk is simply an easy way out of the broken new player experience. A lot could be done to make low SP gameplay more balanced. Some good steps towards this have been taken already (requiring lvl 3/4 instead of lvl 5 to 'progress'), but the job is not done. By wisely specializing new players should be able to become competitive much faster. "Theorycrafting" a new character progression can be a lot of fun.
"Kil2" was bought because of the desire to fly battleships. Well, what if new players could fly reasonably fitted battleships in a reasonable amount of time by making intelligent choices? Sure, they'd be lacking the last 15% in dps and tank, but so what?
The main problem with progression for new characters is that the races do not allow proper specialization. Take the breacher, bellicose, cyclone lineup for instance. Training up drone skills has a far bigger impact on your DPS than improving all those missile skills. In fact, adding drone control units to the bellicose adds about the same dps as adding BCUs. Does that sound balanced? While older characters may look at drone SP and notice how "few" SP they require, those initial couple millions you need to invest really hold back low SP characters for no decent reason.
Some other ways in which to help new characters out without selling SP for isk:
- module rebalancing in terms of stats (e.g. make faction guns reasonably affordable, so new players can be competitive without t2) => this is still "pay to win", but in a much more interesting manner) - module/ship rebalancing in terms of requirements (e.g. require lvl 3/4 skills mostly instead of lvl 5, e.g. t2 large AC currently require motion prediction lvl 5, why?) - make t1 ships more competitive with t1 fits (a positive example of this are the minmatar destroyers: the t1 fits are not that much worse than the t2 fits) - ...
There is so much that could be done, but all of it requires devs with the time and patience to carefully tweak all those stats. It may not be "flashy", but it could turn EVE into a whole new game with far more interesting choices to make. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25385
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:48:14 -
[2942] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Depends on how you view the character bazaar, some see it as purchasing time rather than SP. It's a fine distinction, but it does exist. that's still the case here. an SP packet still represents at least 7.7 days of some one else's time. it's not like this SP is coming out of thin air, it's coming out of some one's head. Yeah I realise that, which is why I'm content to let this play out, if I still feel that it's PLEX for SP when it becomes live then I will make an informed decision instead of making an uninformed snap decision to stop playing a game I've put several thousand hours into over the last 6 and a bit years.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:48:33 -
[2943] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Quote:I just find people claiming "i'm quitting because you can buy SP" to be hypocrites - which wind me up immensely. they have always been able to buy and sell SP, and they're still here. so claiming they will quit is entirely disingenuous or hypocritical. Depends on how you view the character bazaar, some see it as purchasing time rather than SP. It's a fine distinction, but it does exist. Question for the ill suited to figure it out on their own, but what is the distinction in this case? I think it hard to argue people buy characters for simple age over ability, so while SP takes time to accrue, it's not the time a buyer would be after, but rather the abilities that come from the SP.
If I'm missing something, do tell please.
|
Jared Khanar
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:54:43 -
[2944] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Question for the ill suited to figure it out on their own, but what is the distinction in this case? I think it hard to argue people buy characters for simple age over ability, so while SP takes time to accrue, it's not the time a buyer would be after, but rather the abilities that come from the SP.
If I'm missing something, do tell please.
If it-¦s all about enabling abilities, this can be provided in many other way. You can alter SP requirements, and so on. It-¦s not that hard to alter existing features without additional costs for the player. But as this is designed it-¦s centered around additional cash income for ccp - advantages for money. If you support this, or not doesn-¦t matter. Please see this clearly as it is. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25385
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:54:52 -
[2945] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Quote:I just find people claiming "i'm quitting because you can buy SP" to be hypocrites - which wind me up immensely. they have always been able to buy and sell SP, and they're still here. so claiming they will quit is entirely disingenuous or hypocritical. Depends on how you view the character bazaar, some see it as purchasing time rather than SP. It's a fine distinction, but it does exist. Question for the ill suited to figure it out on their own, but what is the distinction in this case? I think it hard to argue people buy characters for simple age over ability, so while SP takes time to accrue, it's not the time a buyer would be after, but rather the abilities that come from the SP. If I'm missing something, do tell please. It is a fine distinction, you're correct in that SP takes time to accrue, and time has value.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2605
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:57:39 -
[2946] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Question for the ill suited to figure it out on their own, but what is the distinction in this case? I think it hard to argue people buy characters for simple age over ability, so while SP takes time to accrue, it's not the time a buyer would be after, but rather the abilities that come from the SP.
If I'm missing something, do tell please.
If you buy a character, time has passed at the normal rate for the skills that the character has. If you buy SP packets, there is no requirement for any of the sources to have accumulated the same total time. So rather than waiting 6 months for 1 characters 6 months worth of skills, you can now do it in a month from 6 characters at once.
This makes a huge difference in terms of how 'instant gratification' this sort of thing is. Additionally it's not for the benefit of the newbies, it's old experienced players who will take advantage of this and twist and abuse it in classic EVE ways. Newbies both won't have the money for this anyway, and won't know where to put their SP anyway. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
199
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:58:23 -
[2947] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Quote:I just find people claiming "i'm quitting because you can buy SP" to be hypocrites - which wind me up immensely. they have always been able to buy and sell SP, and they're still here. so claiming they will quit is entirely disingenuous or hypocritical. Depends on how you view the character bazaar, some see it as purchasing time rather than SP. It's a fine distinction, but it does exist. Question for the ill suited to figure it out on their own, but what is the distinction in this case? I think it hard to argue people buy characters for simple age over ability, so while SP takes time to accrue, it's not the time a buyer would be after, but rather the abilities that come from the SP. If I'm missing something, do tell please.
Because in the current system you buy a character with its history, allocated SP, an SP count in line with the character's age, name, corp history and everything that belongs to it. The new owner simply continues that character's journey. With this new system there is a straight "SP for isk" which is something vastly different, this is not a difficult concept to understand.
While one may or may not agree to character sales the simple fact that they're allowed does not somehow automatically mean that the new system should thus also be implemented. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1752
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 08:59:08 -
[2948] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:isk is being exchanged for sp regardless of whether i'm doing it via the bazaar or by the new system.
whether i log in to update a skill queue or extract SP makes no odds. one isn't more effort than the other. It is a lot easier to just farm this packs than to create a new ALT and sell it on the bazaar. The big difference here obviously is EFFORT you have to put in to get rid of your SP or ALT.
And EFFORT makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD!
Myself and I believe many other will never ever invest the time to create an alt to sell on the bazaar. It's not fun for me and I rather pay the subscriptions than to be bothered with this. With the extractors this will change. I can just farm SP as long as I don't need ISK for a new PLEX or something else WITHOUT EFFORT. I can cash out every time I want with almost ZERO EFFORT.
If this hits TQ myself and many others will no longer pay for a subscription and instead just use PLEX with the ISK you farm via this effortless mechanic. PLEX prices will rise to new heights. To the detriment of the player who actually farms ISK via some other mechanic to get the PLEX and actually needs the SP to train new skills.
So EVE will no longer be F2P for the player who is still training and farming the ISK via missions or mining, but instead for the vet who is already satisfied with his chars and has to do nothing.
This is about changing the current system in a bad way and to make sure even Dave gets it I will repeat the core aspect of the argument I made a lot of pages back:
EFFORT makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD! No one cares if it is almost the same as the bazaar, there is enough difference to completely change the way this aspect of the game works.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
166
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:00:04 -
[2949] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Yea I know cause I think you're a Dev alt trying to protect your RL income.
There's definitely a motive somewhere.
considering i'm not even defending the idea. i'm just not crying that the sky is falling. if i want to buy and sell SP i can do it without this idea, and i could probably turn a profit from it if i bothered.
I'll put it to you straight so that you'll (hopefully) understand. If Eve had this feature already incorporated when I first began playing Eve in 2012, I would've left Eve a looooong time ago with absolutely no intentions of coming back. I just lack the ability to stay interested in a game that offers high rewards with little to no effort in a short time frame.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:02:09 -
[2950] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:If it-¦s all about enabling abilities, this can be provided in many other way. You can alter SP requirements, and so on. It-¦s not that hard to alter existing features without additional costs for the player. But as this is designed it-¦s centered around additional cash income for ccp. That it could bring in income for CCP is in my mind a non-argument as I see no reason that they shouldn't be able to monetize this ability, and well should do so to prevent overly frivolous use should it come into being.
Regarding changing skill prereqs, unless you eliminate all prerequisites there will be a desire for skilled characters and the issue remains, albeit possibly less imposing.
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:It is a fine distinction,indeed the SP does take time to accrue, and time has value. What value does time have in this instance? If that value is only that it takes time to accrue SP that makes buying SP and buying time indistinguishable. |
|
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:03:05 -
[2951] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Yea I know cause I think you're a Dev alt trying to protect your RL income.
There's definitely a motive somewhere.
considering i'm not even defending the idea. i'm just not crying that the sky is falling. if i want to buy and sell SP i can do it without this idea, and i could probably turn a profit from it if i bothered. I'll put it to you straight so that you'll (hopefully) understand. If Eve had this feature already incorporated when I first began playing Eve in 2012, I would've left Eve a looooong time ago with absolutely no intentions of coming back. I just lack the ability to stay interested in a game that offers high rewards with little to no effort in a short time frame.
it did.
it still does. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
166
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:03:38 -
[2952] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:I'll be glad to propose one for them that won't destroy the game's core. like This?
No, You've already clearly demonstrated that you lack this insight.
|
Jared Khanar
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:06:07 -
[2953] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:That it could bring in income for CCP is in my mind a non-argument as I see no reason that they shouldn't be able to monetize this ability, and well should do so to prevent overly frivolous use should it come into being.
Well if you like the idea to pay for features that gives advantages in a subscription based game your good to go :) |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:07:19 -
[2954] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Because in the current system you buy a character with its history, allocated SP, an SP count in line with the character's age, name, corp history and everything that belongs to it. The new owner simply continues that character's journey. With this new system there is a straight "SP for isk" which is something vastly different, this is not a difficult concept to understand.
While one may or may not agree to character sales the simple fact that they're allowed does not somehow automatically mean that the new system should thus also be implemented. That wasn't the question persay, but works in lack of an answer I suppose.
So if a character comes along with a name I like, lack of history from being purpose made to sell, or better with standings aligned to my liking or at least not in a way that discourages my use, why does any of that matter? Allocated SP in particular seems horridly irrelevant so long as it has the skills I want/need. There is no longer any penalty for "wasted" SP, so why does this have meaning?
|
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:08:34 -
[2955] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:I'll be glad to propose one for them that won't destroy the game's core. like This? No, You've already clearly demonstrated that you lack this insight.
and which of the myriad of issues presented doesn't it fix?
it literally fixes every issue people are whining about. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:08:55 -
[2956] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:That it could bring in income for CCP is in my mind a non-argument as I see no reason that they shouldn't be able to monetize this ability, and well should do so to prevent overly frivolous use should it come into being. Well if you like the idea to pay for features that gives advantages in a subscription based game your good to go :) I play a game with PLEX, allowing people to have in game funds so long as they spend out of game funds.
If I had an issue with this while continuing to play I'd be less than reasonable I'd think.
|
Jared Khanar
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:14:14 -
[2957] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I play a game with PLEX, allowing people to have in game funds so long as they spend out of game funds.
If I had an issue with this while continuing to play I'd be less than reasonable I'd think.
Sadly the idea to pay to have access to the game, pay additionaly to get funds, pay additionaly to progress, pay additionally to do xyz is not everyones number one choice. If the community changes in a way that support this, ccp will surely focus on this even further. If you see no problem in this, thats fine. Have a great time in a game like this ;) |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25386
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:18:04 -
[2958] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:It is a fine distinction,indeed the SP does take time to accrue, and time has value. What value does time have in this instance? If that value is only that it takes time to accrue SP that makes buying SP and buying time indistinguishable. The value of time is subjective, not everybody values it in the same way, or at the same rate; which is why it's such a fine distinction.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:25:02 -
[2959] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:I play a game with PLEX, allowing people to have in game funds so long as they spend out of game funds.
If I had an issue with this while continuing to play I'd be less than reasonable I'd think.
Sadly the idea to pay to have access to the game, pay additionaly to get funds, pay additionaly to progress, pay additionally to do xyz is not everyones number one choice. If the community changes in a way that support this, ccp will surely focus on this even further. If you see no problem in this, thats fine. Have a great time in a game like this ;) I'm already having a great time in a game like this, as that's what this game currently is. We can pretend otherwise, or that by being "born of necessity" to curb a black market that the existing functions don't count as short-cutting progress or RMT, but that's exactly what they are.
The only problem I have is that we keep one a secret to the cool kids club with multi-billion budgets to throw at characters and pretend it's great for the game to make sure only those in the know and are willing to make a substantial investment can benefit.
CCP has proven to be pretty reasonable in moderating both of those rackets leaving no particular reason to believe this one would have the same result. But beyond the typical slippery slope what objections do you have?
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
166
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:27:08 -
[2960] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Hopefully what you said is true and CCP decides to abort this atrocious idea in a respectful time frame. No, no, no, no.. no. You misunderstand me, I said that CCP need to get it right.
In case you haven't notice CCP seems to be having trouble with "getting it right" these days. And the margin for error with this is microscopic. Are you that confident they can get this right considering their latest track record?
I'm Not!
If they need help, I'll happily oblige.
|
|
Jared Khanar
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:28:01 -
[2961] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: But beyond the typical slippery slope what objections do you have?
If have edited my last posting, you may also like to read my history in this thread. Allow me to not repost all this. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2605
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:28:47 -
[2962] - Quote
Read the last 150 pages and you'll see a bunch of other ways to abuse this feature. And it's not a 'typical slippery slope' argument either. Because this is a massive shift in philosophy by CCP here towards paying to win. It's not quite paying to win, but it certainly is paying to bypass game features in a massively larger way. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:29:07 -
[2963] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:It is a fine distinction,indeed the SP does take time to accrue, and time has value. What value does time have in this instance? If that value is only that it takes time to accrue SP that makes buying SP and buying time indistinguishable. The value of time is subjective, not everybody values it in the same way, or at the same rate; which is why it's such a fine distinction. If we can't define a value that time has, how can you be sure that's what people are buying on the bazaar?
I'm not trying to be dismissive, but to claim there is a distinction between time and SP in regard to character sales probably means we should need to define that distinction for it to have any meaning. To me it lacks a distinction for the very reason of not being able to define one.
I imagine that for those that have no issue with the proposed it's the same.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:32:24 -
[2964] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: But beyond the typical slippery slope what objections do you have?
If have edited my last posting, you may also like to read my history in this thread. Allow me to not repost all this. You only furthered the slippery slope and worse, assumed I felt some obligation to participate in every service CCP offers, existing or otherwise.
That considered I hope you'll excuse my not wanting to review your post history for more of the same. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4181
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:33:43 -
[2965] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:If this hits TQ myself and many others will no longer pay for a subscription and instead just use PLEX with the ISK you farm via this effortless mechanic. PLEX prices will rise to new heights. To the detriment of the player who actually farms ISK via some other mechanic to get the PLEX and actually needs the SP to train new skills. Yes, but I don't think you'll be able to completely pay for a sub by forfeiting that sub's SP gains.
Though some (current char bazaar sellers) pay subs or PLEX just to farm SP on an account, most actually PLAY with their subbed accounts (alts included).
If a sub (or PLEX) gives you:
1 month play time
+
1.8M SP (more or less)
Why do you think you should get a full PLEX back by selling just the SP component of a PLEX's worth?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:36:00 -
[2966] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Read the last 150 pages and you'll see a bunch of other ways to abuse this feature. And it's not a 'typical slippery slope' argument either. Because this is a massive shift in philosophy by CCP here towards paying to win. It's not quite paying to win, but it certainly is paying to bypass game features in a massively larger way. I read much of the 1st 50 pages when I was initially active and found no plausible abuse cases that pose issues (most of the cases were based on poor reading or understanding of the proposed). Reading the last few yielded no new ones either.
It just comes down to people not feeling right that purchased SP can have allocation chosen by the buyer rather than the seller and under their own in game identity, which I don't see as a problem.
Really the only change I'd make is for the diminishing to start sooner and faster, and have an actual cap at which no more can be applied, but even then that's just personal sensibilities. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25387
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:36:42 -
[2967] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:The value of time is subjective, not everybody values it in the same way, or at the same rate; which is why it's such a fine distinction. If we can't define a value that time has, how can you be sure that's what people are buying on the bazaar? How can I define how other people value time? It's impossible for me to do so.
Quote:I'm not trying to be dismissive, but to claim there is a distinction between time and SP in regard to character sales probably means we should need to define that distinction for it to have any meaning. To me it lacks a distinction for the very reason of not being able to define one. I can see where you're coming from but no. How you value time is unique to you, how I value time is unique to me, and that goes for every other player, some people value of time may share some commonality but each will be unique in some way. The distinction is there it is just incredibly hard to say what it is.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:37:49 -
[2968] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:If this hits TQ myself and many others will no longer pay for a subscription and instead just use PLEX with the ISK you farm via this effortless mechanic. PLEX prices will rise to new heights. To the detriment of the player who actually farms ISK via some other mechanic to get the PLEX and actually needs the SP to train new skills. Yes, but I don't think you'll be able to completely pay for a sub by forfeiting that sub's SP gains. Though some (current char bazaar sellers) pay subs or PLEX just to farm SP on an account, most actually PLAY with their subbed accounts (alts included). If a sub (or PLEX) gives you: 1 month play time + 1.8M SP (more or less) Why do you think you should get a full PLEX back by selling just the SP component of a PLEX's worth?
because the only way to accrue SP is to have an active subscription. they are the same thing. one cannot exist without the other. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:39:46 -
[2969] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:The value of time is subjective, not everybody values it in the same way, or at the same rate; which is why it's such a fine distinction. If we can't define a value that time has, how can you be sure that's what people are buying on the bazaar? How can I define how other people value time? It's impossible for me to do so. Quote:I'm not trying to be dismissive, but to claim there is a distinction between time and SP in regard to character sales probably means we should need to define that distinction for it to have any meaning. To me it lacks a distinction for the very reason of not being able to define one. I can see where you're coming from but no. How you value time is unique to you, how I value time is unique to me, and that goes for every other player, some people value of time may share some commonality but each will be unique in some way. The distinction is there it is just incredibly hard to say what it is. That leaves the question of how you can be sure it's actually a factor. The only thing I can really see from this is uncertainty since the value can't be defined or compared to the SP.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:43:44 -
[2970] - Quote
Astroyka wrote:General Lootit wrote: Mike, what personal reasone you have to dislike this idea? How it will affects you personally?
I really hope Mike is not speaking too much from personal opinion, he's a CSM and should be speaking from a wider viewpoint, which I believe he is. He defenetly speaking for him selfe in that case
Mike Azariah wrote: I dislike the Character Bazaar so of course I will dislike the new TSP's as they are similar (not the same, though)
but most personal opinion(without any personal reason) I could read from him about this topic is
Mike Azariah wrote: I am also against this. I could go into details but . . . this feels wrong to me. Against what I thought the game to be.
|
|
Jared Khanar
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:44:33 -
[2971] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: You only furthered the slippery slope and worse, assumed I felt some obligation to participate in every service CCP offers, existing or otherwise.
That considered I hope you'll excuse my not wanting to review your post history for more of the same.
It-¦s your good right to hold prejudices without checking. Please proceed. I-¦m gone soon anyways :) |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25388
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:46:13 -
[2972] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Hopefully what you said is true and CCP decides to abort this atrocious idea in a respectful time frame. No, no, no, no.. no. You misunderstand me, I said that CCP need to get it right. In case you haven't notice CCP seems to be having trouble with "getting it right" these days. And the margin for error with this is microscopic. Are you that confident they can get this right considering their latest track record? That all depends on what you think they've got wrong, on some recent developments I have no opinion at all, on others my definition of right or wrong is going to differ from yours.
CCP are suffering from the same malaise that is affecting the rest of the MMO industry, the demographic is changing and the overall player pool has shrunk. A perceived fall in numbers is by no means unique to Eve as an MMO.
That they are trying new stuff in order to fight that malaise shows that they are aware of it, and actively doing something about it. Some stuff is going to work, other stuff is not; which is which is anybody's guess at the moment.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:50:11 -
[2973] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: You only furthered the slippery slope and worse, assumed I felt some obligation to participate in every service CCP offers, existing or otherwise.
That considered I hope you'll excuse my not wanting to review your post history for more of the same.
It-¦s your good right to hold prejudices without checking. Please proceed. I-¦m gone soon anyways :) Doesn-¦t matter Yes, I find it fair to hold prejudices regarding your past posts given the reasoning and quality of your recent ones. You earned that prejudice.
That said, in all sincerity, good luck with whatever game you should end up in should you leave, no malice is meant to you. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1752
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:01:00 -
[2974] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:If this hits TQ myself and many others will no longer pay for a subscription and instead just use PLEX with the ISK you farm via this effortless mechanic. PLEX prices will rise to new heights. To the detriment of the player who actually farms ISK via some other mechanic to get the PLEX and actually needs the SP to train new skills. Yes, but I don't think you'll be able to completely pay for a sub by forfeiting that sub's SP gains. Though some (current char bazaar sellers) pay subs or PLEX just to farm SP on an account, most actually PLAY with their subbed accounts (alts included). If a sub (or PLEX) gives you: 1 month play time + 1.8M SP (more or less) Why do you think you should get a full PLEX back by selling just the SP component of a PLEX's worth? It does not matter if it pays the full sub. It will lower the cost because you sell off the SP you don't need. And yes, I talk about accounts I play with, like this account. I don't need anymore SP because a gank alt has limited SP requirements. So thanks for all the additional free (or almost free) gank accunts/alts I will create if this hits TQ
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4181
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:04:25 -
[2975] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:because the only way to accrue SP is to have an active subscription. they are the same thing. one cannot exist without the other. Not sure what you mean there.
If I play on my main, need ISK but don't need, say, half of my monthly SP, I'll certainly consider selling them for less than half a PLEX (+ whatever the extractor will cost).
Any SP 'farmers' wishing to sell a month's worth of SP at PLEX + extractor + margin will be undercut by any active player that needs ISK more than SP.
Thus, I'm sure 500,000 SP will cost less than 1/4 PLEX + extractor. So, you won't be able to PLEX an account entirely by selling its SP accumulation.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:10:35 -
[2976] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:because the only way to accrue SP is to have an active subscription. they are the same thing. one cannot exist without the other. Not sure what you mean there. If I play on my main, need ISK but don't need, say, half of my monthly SP, I'll certainly consider selling them for less than half a PLEX (+ whatever the extractor will cost). Any SP 'farmers' wishing to sell a month's worth of SP at PLEX + extractor + margin will be undercut by any active player that needs ISK more than SP. Thus, I'm sure 500,000 SP will cost less than 1/4 PLEX + extractor. So, you won't be able to PLEX an account entirely by selling its SP accumulation.
what you need is irrelevant.
the thing is you can't get one without the other. it doesn't matter if you don't need the SP any more, and likewise if you just want to afk skill train it doesn't matter that you're not going to log in. you cannot have one without the other.
yeah if you just want to sell your spare SP for isk because you don't need it but you're not expressly farming SP->sk you can undercut "sp farmers"... but you'll do it by like a couple of isk, not by dropping your price by like 50% |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4181
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:10:46 -
[2977] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:It does not matter if it pays the full sub. It will lower the cost because you sell off the SP you don't need. And yes, I talk about accounts I play with, like this account. I don't need anymore SP because a gank alt has limited SP requirements. So thanks for all the additional free (or almost free) gank accunts/alts I will create if this hits TQ Agree. Though I'm not sure what your point is. I'm sure you can already regularly create gank catalyst accounts with the proceeds from ganked loot.
So there will be a flow of ISK from people grinding and/or selling PLEX to people that don't care about skilling up their characters as fast as possible (or at all).
Complemented by a reverse flow of SP from people that don't need it to people who do (or think they do LOL).
What's not to like? It's the same as PLEX for gametime.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:11:52 -
[2978] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote: It does not matter if it pays the full sub. It will lower the cost because you sell off the SP you don't need. And yes, I talk about accounts I play with, like this account. I don't need anymore SP because a gank alt has limited SP requirements. So thanks for all the additional free (or almost free) gank accunts/alts I will create if this hits TQ
Good for you if you will be able to do this. But you need to consider that you extacting time which purchased by PLEX. So you are just transfering asserts and nothing more. |
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:15:07 -
[2979] - Quote
wrong button |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4181
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:15:08 -
[2980] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:yeah if you just want to sell your spare SP for isk because you don't need it but you're not expressly farming isk you can undercut "sp farmers"... but you'll do it by like a couple of isk, not by dropping your price by like 50% It really depends on the proportion of 'SP farmers' to 'regular dudes selling off excess SP'.
If the former are dominant, sure the price will be higher. If the Jita price of 500,000 SP is 1/4 PLEX only a fool would sell them for 50M ISK. But if the latter are dominant, the price could be much lower indeed.
May I remind you that each and every character ever created since 2003 can sell SP? Do you really think the main SP-sellers will be farmers?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
|
lord xavier
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
94
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:15:39 -
[2981] - Quote
The diminishing return scales are laughable. You don't see any real hard returns until 80m sp? Really? I can make a perfect titan and dread pilot by the time I hit the 60m mark. I can make a perfect Nyx or Aeon pilot without ever breaking the 50m mark. I can make perfect dread alts all day.
Only thing thing will do is benefit vets more than new players. Vets have the isk to make instant-perfect capital alts.
Sure, this is benefitial for new players in terms of getting quick and fast SP to be able to quick-skill into new doctrines. However, it will be the vets of this game who be the biggest users of this.
Also: Thanks CCP for devaluing my 178m SP character and every other character I own. |
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:21:13 -
[2982] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:yeah if you just want to sell your spare SP for isk because you don't need it but you're not expressly farming isk you can undercut "sp farmers"... but you'll do it by like a couple of isk, not by dropping your price by like 50% It really depends on the proportion of 'SP farmers' to 'regular dudes selling off excess SP'. If the former are dominant, sure the price will be higher. If the Jita price of 500,000 SP is 1/4 PLEX only a fool would sell them for 50M ISK. But if the latter are dominant, the price could be much lower indeed. May I remind you that each and every character ever created since 2003 can sell SP? Do you really think the main SP-sellers will be farmers?
it doesn't matter on the proportion at all. you're not going to drop your price by 50%. people will always buy the lowest priced item on the market, whether it's 150m lower or 0.01 isk lower you'll get the sale. why are people going to put it on the market for 150m lower than the next order?
here's the fact - isk farmers are doing it for profit. they simply cannot sell below cost price. people not doing it for profit won't undercut by 50% because... why the **** would you?
do i think the main sellers will be farmers? after the first month, of course they will. even if they aren't, those see above for how the pricing will work. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:22:18 -
[2983] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Thus, I'm sure 500,000 SP will cost less than 1/4 PLEX + extractor. So, you won't be able to PLEX an account entirely by selling its SP accumulation.
1/4 PLEX + extractor + price of waiting traning time Patience is also valuable thing. All this market of skill traning is exist because some people have no patience like me =) I rather do some stuff in-game to earn isks to buy SP injector than wating until skills are trained. So actually it may cost more than 1/4 PLEX + extractor. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4181
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:22:42 -
[2984] - Quote
lord xavier wrote:Vets have the isk to make instant-perfect capital alts So why did you not already buy 10 perfect dread alts from the Character Bazaar already?
If you already did, why would you need more dread alts after this proposed change?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Jared Khanar
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:24:30 -
[2985] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:I only hope your RL wallet supports this, but as your are able to pay for not having to play (or at least minimize the needed time to do so) you are ofcourse having more time for your rl work to get the needed money you have to give to ccp. I'm having trouble interpreting this as anything but a claim that I buy PLEX from CCP to avoid having to play certain parts of the game. If you intended it otherwise please do explain.
It-¦s an generall outcome in my opinion - if the words are choosen in a irritating way - exchange "you" with "someone" |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
200
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:27:34 -
[2986] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Because in the current system you buy a character with its history, allocated SP, an SP count in line with the character's age, name, corp history and everything that belongs to it. The new owner simply continues that character's journey. With this new system there is a straight "SP for isk" which is something vastly different, this is not a difficult concept to understand.
While one may or may not agree to character sales the simple fact that they're allowed does not somehow automatically mean that the new system should thus also be implemented. That wasn't the question persay, but works in lack of an answer I suppose. So if a character comes along with a name I like, lack of history from being purpose made to sell, or better with standings aligned to my liking or at least not in a way that discourages my use, why does any of that matter? Allocated SP in particular seems horridly irrelevant so long as it has the skills I want/need. There is no longer any penalty for "wasted" SP, so why does this have meaning?
Because in this game choices have consequences, that concept of the fabric of this game.
You can choose to buy a character but you'll have to deal with its name, its SP choices and its history. The new system completely removes any sort of consequences where you can simply cannibalise a character, ANY character, and syphon its SP into whatever you want without any drawbacks or having to deal with that character's choices and history. You're circumventing normal character progression. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4181
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:29:44 -
[2987] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:here's the fact - isk farmers are doing it for profit. they simply cannot sell below cost price. people not doing it for profit won't undercut by 50% because... why the **** would you? Because you didn't spend a PLEX just to farm, you would've spent it anyway to play.
Simple as that.
And the proportion is very meaningful. If you have 1,000 packets for sale in Jita, of which just 100 from farmers, this will happen:
. Farmers won't go lower than their costs
. All the others will have to decide how much 500,000 SP are worth to them, considering they didn't specifically dish out 1/4 PLEX to create them. Supply & demand will do the rest. High demand --> maybe even double the theoretical PLEX cost (1/2 PLEX). Low demand --> who knows? maybe less than half? What are you ever going to do with those mining skills on your PVP char anyway???
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Doramina
Elite Firebird Investments
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:29:56 -
[2988] - Quote
Eve's greatest strength is its greatest weakness. As an eve online player I like the idea I can level the character without playing the game because I have limited time. As time goes by content access of the character threshold increases. This character threshold makes it harder for the player to access content confined by time. It should also be noted that skill point injection doesn't not mean that you pilot well. That takes your own experience and personal abilities.
|
Dave Stark
7583
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:34:11 -
[2989] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:here's the fact - isk farmers are doing it for profit. they simply cannot sell below cost price. people not doing it for profit won't undercut by 50% because... why the **** would you? Because you didn't spend a PLEX just to farm, you would've spent it anyway to play. Simple as that. And the proportion is very meaningful. If you have 1,000 packets for sale in Jita, of which just 100 from farmers, this will happen: . Farmers won't go lower than their costs . All the others will have to decide how much 500,000 SP are worth to them, considering they didn't specifically dish out 1/4 PLEX to create them. Supply & demand will do the rest. High demand --> maybe even double the theoretical PLEX cost (1/2 PLEX). Low demand --> who knows? maybe less than half? What are you ever going to do with those mining skills on your PVP char anyway???
so because you're playing anyway you're going to sell SP f or 150m rather than 299m because you're already playing? no, you wouldn't. you will secure that sale at 299m isk, the same as you would at 150m. you're not going to throw away 149m isk for no reason.
you'd have to be simple to do that. honestly.
yeah 100 farmers won't lower their price to below cost. and 900 packets are then sold below cost. you secure the sale if you're 0.01 isk under "cost price" so they'll be sold for 299m. not 150m.
besides, all the traders will see your 150m sp packets on the market, see a 100% margin, and just buy it to relist it.
other than the initial "gold rush" there's almost basically no way that these packets won't track plex price + extractor costs per unit. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4182
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:37:17 -
[2990] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Thus, I'm sure 500,000 SP will cost less than 1/4 PLEX + extractor. So, you won't be able to PLEX an account entirely by selling its SP accumulation.
1/4 PLEX + extractor + price of waiting traning time Patience is also valuable thing. All this market of skill traning is exist because some people have no patience like me =) I rather do some stuff in-game to earn isks to buy SP injector than wating until skills are trained. So actually it may cost more than 1/4 PLEX + extractor. I agree buyers may be willing to pay more.
But the point is, will there be more buyers or more sellers? Because sellers may be willing to get much less...
I honestly don't know, but as I noted before EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER EVER CREATED and not biomassed has SP that can be cashed-in... Plus all active accounts accumulate SP every minute... Additionally, many 'vets' don't really need additional SP anymore.
Hell, I'm my main, I'm 2-years old and my day-to-day EVE gameplay wouldn't really change much in the next year if I stopped training today!
I'm just pointing out that the current market price of SP, tied to the current SP-trading system (Character Bazaar), will mean nothing with this new system.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
|
Colt Blackhawk
bad InTentiOnZ senseless intentions
313
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:37:27 -
[2991] - Quote
I read again some posts and I have to say I am astonished. So people just cry "NOOO" and you can see 60% of all whiners didn-¦t even read the full stuff of proposed changes.
This change won-¦t hardly affect the higher sp players. It simply won-¦t make sense to buy SP if you ave already 100mil sp. This toon for example has almost 70mil sp. NO way buing a ton of sp for this toon. Just do the maths and READ THE DAMN BLOG and now calculate how many sp you would literally trash to get from 70mil to 120mil. In fact the sp destruction due to conversion losses would even first time in eve history decline the total sp groth/player in eve.
Benefits of the proposed changes are mostly for new players. For example: Player A starts mining career, after some months he does accdentaly his first pvp. Now he has almost evrything in mining and no pvp skills. So player A is angry and maybe quits the game because he sees that mining is boring OR he quits the game for four months and lets his skill queue run until his toon is ready for pvp. Why does nobody see this mess???
Ah yes because eve is a vet game and all those vets cry 24/7 about eve is dying and no new players but on the other side they want those new players only for easy targets and to show them how superior the vets are^^ Eve needs a BIG change to attract new players. Forget all those old crying bittervets. The are also responsible for the declining eve player numbers but they refuse to accept it. Maybe the community is the biggest foe of eve actually.
Another benefit is: You skilled on op ship X. CCP nerfs it and you see all your SP have been wasted for this ship. So the wasted SP you do not need any more belong to CCPs responsibility and not yours. With the new changes you can reskill but for the tradeoff of loosing some skill points.
Next thingie: All the bittervets cryinhg about "this is pay to win" refusing to realise they are playing pay2win already for years amuse me. Eve is already pay2win. You want to be a pvp solo god? Just buy plex with money, sell it and buy all the toons you need for solo pvp on char basar. OGB toon: Check. Cloaky falcon toon: CHeck. Cloaky logi toon: Check.
But I bet the whining of all those whiners goes on and on.
These changes WILL make it a lot easier for new players and this is the right direction.
[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
|
lord xavier
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
94
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:41:06 -
[2992] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:lord xavier wrote:Vets have the isk to make instant-perfect capital alts So why did you not already buy 10 perfect dread alts from the Character Bazaar already? If you already did, why would you need more dread alts after this proposed change? Titans are where my concerns are at. You can make 10 titan characters. Inject clones into the clone bay, jump until you get 5 days of fatigue. JC to the titan, hop in, go til 5 days, JC to the titan. Rinse and repeat, all of which will be done through what, instantly making new pilots?
Also, why on earth would you ever need 10 dread pilots and what do you even mean? I am sorry if you can't see the damage this change can actually do to the game. Instant-HIC alts. Instant recon alts. Instant-bait alts. Instant-titan alts. Instant dread alts. You can instantly make any kind of alt. As I said prior, this is an amazing feature for new players to be able to get to 60-80m SP really quicky. Being able to quickly switch doctrines as needed. This will be great for them, but also holds the ability to get abused to **** out of veterans.
(Really, what do you really need 10 dread alts for?) |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4182
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:42:21 -
[2993] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:here's the fact - isk farmers are doing it for profit. they simply cannot sell below cost price. people not doing it for profit won't undercut by 50% because... why the **** would you? Because you didn't spend a PLEX just to farm, you would've spent it anyway to play. Simple as that. And the proportion is very meaningful. If you have 1,000 packets for sale in Jita, of which just 100 from farmers, this will happen: . Farmers won't go lower than their costs . All the others will have to decide how much 500,000 SP are worth to them, considering they didn't specifically dish out 1/4 PLEX to create them. Supply & demand will do the rest. High demand --> maybe even double the theoretical PLEX cost (1/2 PLEX). Low demand --> who knows? maybe less than half? What are you ever going to do with those mining skills on your PVP char anyway??? so because you're playing anyway you're going to sell SP f or 150m rather than 299m because you're already playing? no, you wouldn't. you will secure that sale at 299m isk, the same as you would at 150m. you're not going to throw away 149m isk for no reason. you'd have to be simple to do that. honestly. yeah 100 farmers won't lower their price to below cost. and 900 packets are then sold below cost. you secure the sale if you're 0.01 isk under "cost price" so they'll be sold for 299m. not 150m. besides, all the traders will see your 150m sp packets on the market, see a 100% margin, and just buy it to relist it. other than the initial "gold rush" there's almost basically no way that these packets won't track plex price + extractor costs per unit. Dave, I don't think I'm capable of accurately predicting the price but you shouldn't think so either!
Come on, what you say is not how markets work! If I go for 299m someone can go for 298m then someone can go for 250m. Supply & demand, as always.
Demand is anyone's guess, so is supply but the fact that every char ever created has SP and every active account accumulates SP makes me think that there's at least a possibility that supply could be pretty damn huge...
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dave Stark
7584
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:42:43 -
[2994] - Quote
lord xavier wrote:Rinse and repeat, all of which will be done through what, instantly making new pilots?
and that's any different to just buying 10 titan pilots from the bazaar now?
people have been selling pilots capable of flying titans/supercarriers for quite a while now. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4182
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:45:51 -
[2995] - Quote
lord xavier wrote:(Really, what do you really need 10 dread alts for?) LOL nothing, this was my point!
Why do you think insta-dread alts (provided you pay several billion ISK, obviously) are a problem if people that field dreads already have all the dread characters they need?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Big Lynx
4040
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:46:04 -
[2996] - Quote
Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here? |
Dave Stark
7586
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:47:28 -
[2997] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:here's the fact - isk farmers are doing it for profit. they simply cannot sell below cost price. people not doing it for profit won't undercut by 50% because... why the **** would you? Because you didn't spend a PLEX just to farm, you would've spent it anyway to play. Simple as that. And the proportion is very meaningful. If you have 1,000 packets for sale in Jita, of which just 100 from farmers, this will happen: . Farmers won't go lower than their costs . All the others will have to decide how much 500,000 SP are worth to them, considering they didn't specifically dish out 1/4 PLEX to create them. Supply & demand will do the rest. High demand --> maybe even double the theoretical PLEX cost (1/2 PLEX). Low demand --> who knows? maybe less than half? What are you ever going to do with those mining skills on your PVP char anyway??? so because you're playing anyway you're going to sell SP f or 150m rather than 299m because you're already playing? no, you wouldn't. you will secure that sale at 299m isk, the same as you would at 150m. you're not going to throw away 149m isk for no reason. you'd have to be simple to do that. honestly. yeah 100 farmers won't lower their price to below cost. and 900 packets are then sold below cost. you secure the sale if you're 0.01 isk under "cost price" so they'll be sold for 299m. not 150m. besides, all the traders will see your 150m sp packets on the market, see a 100% margin, and just buy it to relist it. other than the initial "gold rush" there's almost basically no way that these packets won't track plex price + extractor costs per unit. Dave, I don't think I'm capable of accurately predicting the price but you shouldn't think so either! Come on, what you say is not how markets work! If I go for 299m someone can go for 298m then someone can go for 250m. Supply & demand, as always. Demand is anyone's guess, so is supply but the fact that every char ever created has SP and every active account accumulates SP makes me think that there's at least a possibility that supply could be pretty damn huge...
erm, it's exactly how the markets work.
once again, if you start dropping your prices to the point where there are huge margins to be had below cost price traders will buy them in order to re-list them.
considering there are more transactions [on the bazaar] per year than the average pcu for the second half of this year so far... i sincerely doubt demand is going to be an issue.
as for supply it'll be as big as the market. there's 0 barrier to entry to this market. if there's any profit to be made any one can enter the market and thus saturate it to the point where cost price will be the max price. |
Dave Stark
7586
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:48:16 -
[2998] - Quote
Big Lynx wrote:Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here?
no, the world isn't this stupid. it's just eve-o. people discussing this in other places are significantly less oblivious to the obvious. |
lord xavier
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
94
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:51:27 -
[2999] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:lord xavier wrote:Rinse and repeat, all of which will be done through what, instantly making new pilots? and that's any different to just buying 10 titan pilots from the bazaar now? people have been selling pilots capable of flying titans/supercarriers for quite a while now. Because there aren't 10,000 titan characters for sale. Doing so as of right now puts people at throats with others wanting it for an actual pilot for their titan. With this change it will only bring people to make fresh-unknown pilots that aren't watch listed as known titan pilots. |
Dave Stark
7586
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:53:42 -
[3000] - Quote
lord xavier wrote:Dave Stark wrote:lord xavier wrote:Rinse and repeat, all of which will be done through what, instantly making new pilots? and that's any different to just buying 10 titan pilots from the bazaar now? people have been selling pilots capable of flying titans/supercarriers for quite a while now. Because there aren't 10,000 titan characters for sale. Doing so as of right now puts people at throats with others wanting it for an actual pilot for their titan. With this change it will only bring people to make fresh-unknown pilots that aren't watch listed as known titan pilots.
do you need 10, or 10,000. which is it? |
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4182
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:55:02 -
[3001] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:erm, it's exactly how the markets work.
once again, if you start dropping your prices to the point where there are huge margins to be had below cost price traders will buy them in order to re-list them. Your assumption on cost is debatable.
What's the cost of SP on an account you would sub anyway?
What's the cost of SP on a useless alt?
What's the cost of SP on a character somebody skilled when PLEX was worth 500M ISK?
There are several ways to answer this, 1 PLEX (going price) for 1.8M SP is not the only one.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1757
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:00:07 -
[3002] - Quote
Colt Blackhawk wrote:T...hese changes WILL make it a lot easier for new players and this is the right direction.
My objections are on two levels:
1) they are changing the very core of the game and in doing so really pissing of a large chunk of the existing player base. This really doesn't seem like a very good idea to me.
2) This will not be for the benefit of new players unless you view them spending PLEX after PLEX on skill packs as a good thing for them. Older players and those that can afford to farm alts for SP will be those that benefit most from this. Also those entities who own the most lucrative space assets (such as moons...) will be able to farm alts to ensure they have perfect pilots in the most important areas making it even harder for smaller entities to encroach on their space.
This really is not a good idea in my opinion. If you want to assist new pilots give them all the cerebral accelerator to start with and allow players to build them in game too in any space. |
Dave Stark
7586
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:00:33 -
[3003] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:erm, it's exactly how the markets work.
once again, if you start dropping your prices to the point where there are huge margins to be had below cost price traders will buy them in order to re-list them. Your assumption on cost is debatable. What's the cost of SP on an account you would sub anyway? What's the cost of SP on a useless alt? What's the cost of SP on a character somebody skilled when PLEX was worth 500M ISK? There are several ways to answer this, 1 PLEX (going price) for 1.8M SP is not the only one.
no, it isn't debatable. the cost price to produce a packet is 300m + exctractor at current plex prices. that is what it will cost to produce a packet. there is only one way to produce SP.
doesn't matter where the SP comes from. the cost of obtaining that SP is the same - assuming they are training at the same rate.
erm, yes it is the only way to answer it. there's no other way to get SP than to train it, which means you get 1.8m per plex. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4182
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:02:01 -
[3004] - Quote
lord xavier wrote:Dave Stark wrote:lord xavier wrote:Rinse and repeat, all of which will be done through what, instantly making new pilots? and that's any different to just buying 10 titan pilots from the bazaar now? people have been selling pilots capable of flying titans/supercarriers for quite a while now. Because there aren't 10,000 titan characters for sale. Doing so as of right now puts people at throats with others wanting it for an actual pilot for their titan. With this change it will only bring people to make fresh-unknown pilots that aren't watch listed as known titan pilots. god forbid a little shake-up on titan intel!
I agree the wealthy could benefit more from this trick (provided it's worth it, I'm no supercap warfare expert), but that's always true for anything, isn't it?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4182
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:13:52 -
[3005] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:no, it isn't debatable. the cost price to produce a packet is 300m + exctractor at current plex prices. that is what it will cost to produce a packet. there is only one way to produce SP. Nope!
Since I'd sub my account anyway to play, the incremental cost for me to produce a packet with my own SP is just the extractor.
I didn't buy a PLEX, I didn't sub my account to gain SP.
Now, the opportunity cost of extracting my SP instead of training is... let's see...
Got it!
It's exactly the market price of skill packets!!!
If skill packets will go for 100m, anyone will be happy to sell them for 100m, since they can buy them at 100m if they need the SP.
Makes sense to you now? When we're talking about a commodity that EVERY PLAYED ACCOUNT can AUTOMATICALLY generate 1.8m a month of, the price and value is just an agreement within the parties.
The fact that you COULD, in theory, waste a PLEX a month on an account that you don't need just to generate SP that EVERYBODY in EVE already has as a by-product of them playing the game, is irrelevant.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dave Stark
7586
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:17:09 -
[3006] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:no, it isn't debatable. the cost price to produce a packet is 300m + exctractor at current plex prices. that is what it will cost to produce a packet. there is only one way to produce SP. Nope! Since I'd sub my account anyway to play, the incremental cost for me to produce a packet with my own SP is just the extractor. I didn't buy a PLEX, I didn't sub my account to gain SP. Now, the opportunity cost of extracting my SP instead of training is... let's see... Got it! It's exactly the market price of skill packets!!!If skill packets will go for 100m, anyone will be happy to sell them for 100m, since they can buy them at 100m if they need the SP. Makes sense to you now? When we're talking about a commodity that EVERY PLAYED ACCOUNT can AUTOMATICALLY generate 1.8m a month of, the price and value is just an agreement within the parties. The fact that you COULD, in theory, waste a PLEX a month on an account that you don't need just to generate SP that EVERYBODY in EVE already has as a by-product of them playing the game, is irrelevant.
no.
that's the price it costs to produce those SP. whether you need them or not doesn't matter. the only way to accumulate SP is to have an active subscription, which isn't free.
i understand what you're saying. but just like "minerals i mine are free", "sp i don't need are free" is just as, if not more, stupid. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
99
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:20:00 -
[3007] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:a25639 wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster. It will surely happen. However, players doing this wonGÇÖt gain any reasonable advantages by doing it. After all there are only combat skills worth 290m sp available and that includes mostly useless level 5 skills. They will not do it because of advantage but pure prestige. Then who gives a ****. Oh hi, thanks for coming up again after being owned in previous argument.
You still do not understand anything. Ah well, sorry, I will stop answering to trolls / not so bright ones. But yes, if you had read my posts where i have explained it in details you would know.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
99
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:22:51 -
[3008] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:So has this already been decided? Or is it still being debated? If players are postive to the change, and it seems they are, it will be introduced. I don't think it will be large change for new players. Someone must be really interested to the game to spend large chunk of money to "catch up with vets". If for example, Dave Stark want to get rid off his mining V it won't affect my gameplay at all. CCP found new way to earn money. We see EvE as game, they as job. Skill trading will destroy avatar based training system? So what? Nothing is set in stone. People are willing to pay for the service so CCP open this gate for them. Will it change the game significantly? I don't think so. Will it change the way I perceive CCP and the game? Definitely. I won't be as much attached to it. This is first step to destroy fundaments of the game. Ps. D3 is good, it's getting better with every patch.
Not really, there are 4 people spamming this thread in favor of this and trolling everyone else. Beside them there were 5-10 people max who came and supported it with one post.
There are hundreds who are against it.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2510
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:23:24 -
[3009] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Same goes for the Character Bazaar. You may not have paid the time but someone did, with plex or cold hard cash. This is exactly why I don't have a problem with the proposal. Skill points are not being created in a new way - they must still be earned by someone. The principle is the same as the character bazaar. Perhaps it would be better if the bazaar did not exist. But it does, and in its presence this is a good addition.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:23:53 -
[3010] - Quote
Some people seem to think that one can use the proposed system to farm for ISK via selling skill packets. I don't think that will happen any time soon.
If we assume that one can generate at a maximum about 2M SP per month, then 1 character can generate 4 skill packets per month. This character needs to be subscribed, hence requires 1 PLEX per month.
In consequence, you can generate ISK profit here only if the price for a skill packet is a bit greater than a quarter of a PLEX.
So in the very long term, that's where the price of skill packets would head. And yes, obviously some people would farm this. Most people won't though, because competition would drive margins down to the point where only huge farms of perfectly augmented characters will turn a reliable profit.
However, for the foreseeable future, there is also a huge backlog of unwanted characters (or unwanted skill training in wanted characters) to work through. This will kill attempts to farm this for many years to come.
Imagine you are a SP farmer, and you just put a skill packet up for sale for the ISK equivalent of 0.251 PLEX, making you a tiny profit (under the assumption of 0.25 PLEX generation costs). I have this old character that I want to mine for some ISK by breaking it down into SP packets. What will I do? Well, of course I will sell my packets for less than you, the farmer. Let's say I sell my packets for the ISK equivalent of 0.25 PLEX. You cannot compete with this, it is at production cost. John over there also has an old character he's mining for SP, he sees my sell order and goes down to the ISK equivalent of 0.249 PLEX. Now your farm is dead, you would be operating at a loss if you competed with that.
A smarter man than I can use the idea of farming to work out with more precision what the "true" price point for a skill packet is, namely its generation cost. My 0.25 PLEX is just a rough estimate. This will be useful for speculating on skill packets, i.e., if prices are much lower than this you might want to buy... But until we have burned through the huge backlog of SP-mineable old characters, I doubt anybody will actually farm. Rather, the possibility to farm will cap the price point for SP packets mined from old characters, which will dominate the market. |
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Dave Stark
7586
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:24:49 -
[3011] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:So has this already been decided? Or is it still being debated? If players are postive to the change, and it seems they are, it will be introduced. I don't think it will be large change for new players. Someone must be really interested to the game to spend large chunk of money to "catch up with vets". If for example, Dave Stark want to get rid off his mining V it won't affect my gameplay at all. CCP found new way to earn money. We see EvE as game, they as job. Skill trading will destroy avatar based training system? So what? Nothing is set in stone. People are willing to pay for the service so CCP open this gate for them. Will it change the game significantly? I don't think so. Will it change the way I perceive CCP and the game? Definitely. I won't be as much attached to it. This is first step to destroy fundaments of the game. Ps. D3 is good, it's getting better with every patch. Not really, there are 4 people spamming this thread in favor of this and trolling everyone else. Beside them there were 5-10 people max who came and supported it with one post. There are hundreds who are against it.
pointing out that people haven't read the devblog and that their arguments are baseless isn't trolling.
however i can understand how you feel that way when the same tired old incorrect arguments get shot down over and over by facts. it can feel like you're being trolled i imagine. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
207
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:30:44 -
[3012] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:no, it isn't debatable. the cost price to produce a packet is 300m + exctractor at current plex prices. that is what it will cost to produce a packet. there is only one way to produce SP. Nope! Since I'd sub my account anyway to play, the incremental cost for me to produce a packet with my own SP is just the extractor. I didn't buy a PLEX, I didn't sub my account to gain SP. Now, the opportunity cost of extracting my SP instead of training is... let's see... Got it! It's exactly the market price of skill packets!!!If skill packets will go for 100m, anyone will be happy to sell them for 100m, since they can buy them at 100m if they need the SP. Makes sense to you now? When we're talking about a commodity that EVERY PLAYED ACCOUNT can AUTOMATICALLY generate 1.8m a month of, the price and value is just an agreement within the parties. The fact that you COULD, in theory, waste a PLEX a month on an account that you don't need just to generate SP that EVERYBODY in EVE already has as a by-product of them playing the game, is irrelevant. no. that's the price it costs to produce those SP. whether you need them or not doesn't matter. the only way to accumulate SP is to have an active subscription, which isn't free. i understand what you're saying. but just like "minerals i mine are free", "sp i don't need are free" is just as, if not more, stupid.
Gully is correct. Once you reach a certain point in your skill training then you are no longer subbing your account for SP. In fact it is the opposite, you do not require them at all. Also you are missing the biggest reason people sub and use plex, it is not to train SP, it is to be able to play the game. So the pure ISK value of plex cannot be directly correlated to SP gained anyway seeing as that is only a small byproduct of activating the plex.
So I agree with Gully, there will be a massive oversupply of SP and the price will not reflect the price of plex as you are expecting.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4183
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:36:26 -
[3013] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i understand what you're saying. but just like "minerals i mine are free", "sp i don't need are free" is just as, if not more, stupid. Indeed the two concepts are similar, but with a big difference.
To mine minerals, you have to dedicate your account's time to mining.
To 'mine' SP, you don't even have to log in...
Look at it this way. Say you want to produce and sell wine. 1 bottle of wine a month costs you 1 PLEX.
So you'd want to sell your wine for something more than 1 PLEX/bottle.
No consider that you live in a (virtual) world where 200,000 other people (active subscriber assumption) get a bottle of wine every month. 'Free' or not, they get it just because they live in this world. They don't have to do ANYTHING special to get that bottle, it's automatic.
These 200,000 people + another, say 1,000,000 people (existing, non-biomassed EVE characters estimation) also have an average of, say, at least 10 bottles of wine locked away in their canteens. Some have up to 150!
Suddenly, the canteen locks magically disappear and all these dudes can choose to sell their wine, if they wish. In many cases, the proceeds from wine-selling could be invested in things they need more than wine.
Sure, people love their wine and they certainly wouldn't want to sell all of it.
But there's a gigantic amount of wine bottles in the (virtual) world... Plus 200,000 being made every single month...
Do people really need all those bottles? If they need some cash, and have all these bottles in their canteens, will they really think they can't sell them for less than a PLEX each, just because that's the cost for a dedicated wine producer, who is slowly adding his 1 bottle/month to the MILLIONS of bottles already existing?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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a25639
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:36:29 -
[3014] - Quote
I also think the price of skillpackages will be lower than the actual cost for training time + extractor. I donGÇÖt think sp farming will be necessary to satisfy demand (especially not in the near future). EVE would have to be in a very healthy state for sp farming to be actually necessary. Lots of new players or at least lots of players who want more alts are required to use up all the excess sp of existing players / characters. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
99
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:37:40 -
[3015] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:So has this already been decided? Or is it still being debated? If players are postive to the change, and it seems they are, it will be introduced. I don't think it will be large change for new players. Someone must be really interested to the game to spend large chunk of money to "catch up with vets". If for example, Dave Stark want to get rid off his mining V it won't affect my gameplay at all. CCP found new way to earn money. We see EvE as game, they as job. Skill trading will destroy avatar based training system? So what? Nothing is set in stone. People are willing to pay for the service so CCP open this gate for them. Will it change the game significantly? I don't think so. Will it change the way I perceive CCP and the game? Definitely. I won't be as much attached to it. This is first step to destroy fundaments of the game. Ps. D3 is good, it's getting better with every patch. Not really, there are 4 people spamming this thread in favor of this and trolling everyone else. Beside them there were 5-10 people max who came and supported it with one post. There are hundreds who are against it. pointing out that people haven't read the devblog and that their arguments are baseless isn't trolling. however i can understand how you feel that way when the same tired old incorrect arguments get shot down over and over by facts. it can feel like you're being trolled i imagine.
I was referring to people who do not read previous posts of people discussing here. Ie asking same questions over and over without reading the answers...
And again, whatever arguments are, please go ahead and challenge them, if they are sh*t they will be challenged easily and taken down. So far not a single one was shot down.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
99
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:38:29 -
[3016] - Quote
Chrome Veinss wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:[ Don ZOLA wrote:a25639 wrote:[quote=Don ZOLA]I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster. It will surely happen. However, players doing this wonGÇÖt gain any reasonable advantages by doing it. After all there are only combat skills worth 290m sp available and that includes mostly useless level 5 skills. They will not do it because of advantage but pure prestige. So why should we give the faintest **** about this again?
I have already answered you this one. Consistency in game fundamentals.
+they will have advantage,but it is not the main issue.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
173
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:43:48 -
[3017] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Yea I know cause I think you're a Dev alt trying to protect your RL income.
There's definitely a motive somewhere.
considering i'm not even defending the idea. i'm just not crying that the sky is falling. if i want to buy and sell SP i can do it without this idea, and i could probably turn a profit from it if i bothered. I'll put it to you straight so that you'll (hopefully) understand. If Eve had this feature already incorporated when I first began playing Eve in 2012, I would've left Eve a looooong time ago with absolutely no intentions of coming back. I just lack the ability to stay interested in a game that offers high rewards with little to no effort in a short time frame. it did. it still does.
When are you gonna get this Dave.
Buying/Selling chars on Char Bazaar and what CCP is currently proposing are 2 very different things. The first had consequence, the latter doesn't and is farmable(which makes it far worst). |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4184
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:52:10 -
[3018] - Quote
One other point on the SP supply vs. demand speculation.
Three undoubtedly useful applications of extractors/packets would be:
. Respeccing your own characters
. Transferring SP among your own characters
. 'Trading' SP with your friends or alliance/corp mates, at a 'friendly' price (because, for example, having friends that can fly certain ships with you is worth more than some measily ISK)
All these applications do not require you to buy packets in Jita, further decreasing the potential buy-side market, or demand, for SP packets...
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dave Stark
7587
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:52:41 -
[3019] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:To mine minerals, you have to dedicate your account's time to mining
yeah, and time in eve has a monetary value attached to it as it's a subscription game. thus we know the monetary cost associated with producing minerals. |
Dave Stark
7587
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:53:34 -
[3020] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Buying/Selling chars on Char Bazaar and what CCP is currently proposing are 2 very different things. The first had consequence, the latter doesn't and is farmable(which makes it far worst).
a question nobody, for some reason, has been able to answer.
i start with a character with a set of skills i don't want. i end up with a character with a set of skills i do want. what am i describing, the current system or the new system? |
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Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:54:48 -
[3021] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:So I agree with Gully, there will be a massive oversupply of SP and the price will not reflect the price of plex as you are expecting. If the price for a skill packet drops very significantly below about a quarter of a PLEX, I for one will start buying up skill packets with whatever ISK I can spare. There is of course a massive reservoir of SP that could potentially be released to market. But in practice, the SP flow will be limited by vets actually bothering to trim their characters or dissolve their alts. If the price drops too low, many of them won't do that any longer...
I expect that there will be an initial "gold rush" period with the price fluctuating wildly. But since the price is basically capped by the possibility to farm, the price can only bottom out briefly, it cannot really spike. I for one will be waiting for serious drops to invest, and I imagine others will, too. And within a few months we surely will reach some kind of fairly stable equilibrium at a reasonable fraction of the "best farming" price. I would expect something like 0.2ish PLEX. |
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
232
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:59:45 -
[3022] - Quote
I like the idea.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
101
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:01:33 -
[3023] - Quote
Colt Blackhawk wrote: 60% of all whiners didn-¦t even read the full stuff of proposed changes.
100% of this post was fabricated statistics
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4184
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:02:51 -
[3024] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:To mine minerals, you have to dedicate your account's time to mining yeah, and time in eve has a monetary value attached to it as it's a subscription game. thus we know the monetary cost associated with producing minerals. Not really.
The 'minerals I mine are free' argument is silly considering ISK/hr opportunites, where the 'hr', the time, is PLAYER TIME that has nothing at all to do with the subscription model or cost of the subscription.
Minerals you mine wouldn't be 'free' even if EVE were f2p.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
99
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:03:08 -
[3025] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: and they have to with the new system, too.
Sellers have to, buyers do not. They just pay for sp and inject it in the existing char, ie stack up SP.
Dave Stark wrote: i'm sorry but no. making a character before me and keeping an active subscription isn't "investing years of time effort ad money" it's simply knowing about the game before i did. it's like pretending you being 5 years older than me is somehow an achievement. also that's level of "achievement" (******* lol), is still retained. your character's DOB will adequately demonstrate that you started the game before me. you don't need more SP than me to show that.
That would be like, complaining in golf that you are not champion because Tiger woods found about ie earlier and invested his time and money there so he has unfair advantage. I mean, really? Of course they have it, they have been using some service for longer time, they should have it. Which does not mean all will have it due to their activities/inactivities. But it is perfectly normal that they have it.
Dave Stark wrote: this system makes it hilariously easy for people like that to do it for free - they are one of the people who benefit from this system the most. suggesting they're the ones most likely to quit is something i find amusing and absurd at the same time.
But they do not need it, they are not spinning ships because they lack content, they just do not the play anymore, no matter what you give them. They are basically just idling out of habit., But still paying.
Dave Stark wrote: 1% of the total players? more characters are traded every year than the daily PCU (25550 char trades per year, vs 24k period average since the middle of this year to now). there's a HUGE market for buying and selling whole characters. do you really think this less obstructed system is going to see a reduction in the capsuleer cattle market? really?
They will still do it, only minor amount will inject it to the mains. Why, first because of their nature, those are the people who want to speed things up. Most will want to speed them significantly, 1mil sp is nothing. And they have diminishing returns. So getting 100mil sp char might be cheaper from bazaar (assumption, we do not know about whole pricing and market influence on it). It would not be perfect, but who cares they would get what they want. After all this is not aimed at making perfect chars but for speeding things up?
We have both agreed previously that this wont work much for new players, And for older there are diminishing returns, so it wont be that good ROI. Therefore not many will use it.
Dave Stark wrote: what fundamentals? you've always paid ccp to skip the skill grind and buy/sell SP.
a lot of your "arguments" seem to be made up "what if" scenarios based on wild fantasies. i must be honest.
I have already explained this numerous times. I really do not want to waste my time anymore, having to repeat everything already explained to ignorant people who keep repeating same questions without reading the answers. All those "what if" scenarios have been seen through the time. Being here from the start gives helped me see them.
Since not you nor me are really making decision on this, based on the number of supporters or anything else, I hope CCP reads my posts and I am willing to spend my time to discuss with them if needed to go even more in details. I am open even to change my mind if they provide me counter arguments that will show that mine arguments are wrong (something that no one on this topic made). If not, then just let them do whatever they want and suffer the consequences.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7587
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:04:12 -
[3026] - Quote
quotes are hard |
Lulu Lunette
Bug Zapping Technologies
91
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:07:21 -
[3027] - Quote
+1 to this idea.
I hate how much an alts game this is. So we can melt down and biomass the rejects you see for sale in the bazaar? Awesome!
Besides with the current proposal it sounds like it's not really worth doing once you hit 50m SP. I've got almost 9m SP atm so I would use this if the price was right!
@lunettelulu7
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Dave stark
7590
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:08:16 -
[3028] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:To mine minerals, you have to dedicate your account's time to mining yeah, and time in eve has a monetary value attached to it as it's a subscription game. thus we know the monetary cost associated with producing minerals. Not really. The 'minerals I mine are free' argument is silly considering ISK/hr opportunites, where the 'hr', the time, is PLAYER TIME that has nothing at all to do with the subscription model or cost of the subscription. Minerals you mine wouldn't be 'free' even if EVE were f2p.
the cost of minerals is irrelevant anyway,
returning to the point, SP do not get generated unless a subscription is active therefore there is a cost associated with producing SP that simply cannot be removed.
what you choose to sell SP for is entirely your choice. however that does not change the fact that without the cost of a subscription running those SP could not be created.
as we know what these production costs are we know the minimum price they can be sold at to cover costs, and there fore the price you must remain under to undercut people engaging in SP production for profit. |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1397
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:10:19 -
[3029] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote: I sit in Rookie Help Chat and listen to new players trying to figure out how to play for free. How to earn that 1.2 bill within 30 days. Those types, will they stay if I tell them that not only is it unlikely but that they will have to pay extra to be decent at the game.
It would be an added option in the game not a requirement. They can still wait to train into ships and based on the costs in the Aurum store most will wait most of the time. A few may exercise this option, or buy a character. But this isn't changing much.
OGB is the sort of pay to win cancer that is costing eve subscriptions. That pay to win not only requires an additional monthly cost but it also makes the game less fun by requiring people to drag alts everywhere.
This stuff with skill points versus buying a character is not that big of a deal.
Mike Azariah wrote:Will new players coming in look and see the rich instaboosting themselves into better ships and leaving the normal subscription player behind in the dust?
The new subscription players have already been left in the dust by people who have subscribed longer. New players are not just competing against other new players. This is a single shard.
This would just give newer players an *option* to catch up with money instead of time. I think giving new players more *options* is good for new players. Generally I think giving players (new and old) options is good for them.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4184
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:11:02 -
[3030] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Moac Tor wrote:So I agree with Gully, there will be a massive oversupply of SP and the price will not reflect the price of plex as you are expecting. If the price for a skill packet drops very significantly below about a quarter of a PLEX, I for one will start buying up skill packets with whatever ISK I can spare. There is of course a massive reservoir of SP that could potentially be released to market. But in practice, the SP flow will be limited by vets actually bothering to trim their characters or dissolve their alts. If the price drops too low, many of them won't do that any longer... I expect that there will be an initial "gold rush" period with the price fluctuating wildly. But since the price is basically capped by the possibility to farm, the price can only bottom out briefly, it cannot really spike. I for one will be waiting for serious drops to invest, and I imagine others will, too. And within a few months we surely will reach some kind of fairly stable equilibrium at a reasonable fraction of the "best farming" price. I would expect something like 0.2ish PLEX. Could be, hard to say...
I agree with you that the price relative to PLEX is capped, because SP farming will require almost ZERO effort. Just set up an account, make packets once a month and sell them. 5 minutes player time max for each packet. PLEX prices could change a lot though...
On the other hand, after the SP 'reservoir' is released, you'd still have a lot of active accounts that could extract some or all of their monthly SP... hard to say how strong this 'constant' SP flow will be.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
99
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:11:17 -
[3031] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: I am open even to change my mind if they provide me counter arguments that will show that mine arguments are wrong (something that no one on this topic made). If not, then just let them do whatever they want and suffer the consequences. probably because all of your arguments are against pre-existing systems rather than the proposed one.
Not really.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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a25639
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:18:10 -
[3032] - Quote
Maybe sp farming is indeed going to be necessary to satisfy demand. After all character farming is necessary now as well to satisfy character demand. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:24:32 -
[3033] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:The first had consequence, the latter doesn't and is farmable(which makes it far worst). Given the massive reservoir of SP in existing characters, the proposed skill packet system is not farmable in a practical sense. The only way a farm would work here is if the vast majority of players who have substantial SP did not use the system. And if that were the case, then what reason would you have to complain?
Instead, what I expect will happen is that the character bazaar will turn into a "mining" operation. If I know what I can sell a skill packet for, then I know for how much I can buy a character in the bazaar, in order to break it down into skill packets, to be sold at a net profit.
As soon as we get some idea about stable skill packet prices, it will not be farming with multiple characters that will come to the fore. It will be mining old characters by buying them off the character bazaar that will be the new ISK opportunity. The equivalent of margin trading will be that people sell characters in the bazaar for less than they could potentially make if they chopped them into skill packets themselves. You will effectively pay some "character miner" for the convenience of dissolving a character for you, just like you effectively pay a margin trader for the convenience of getting your money right now. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1489
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:24:45 -
[3034] - Quote
I spend a lot of time thinking about this, read some blogs, listened some podcasts and i changed my mind.
If CCP solves some of the implementation issues, this change can be good for the game.
The Tears Must Flow
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4184
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:26:11 -
[3035] - Quote
a25639 wrote:Maybe sp farming is indeed going to be necessary to satisfy demand. After all character farming is necessary now as well to satisfy character demand. Yes, but is it easier to extract 500,000 SP off of any character and sell it immediately in Jita, or making/giving up a whole complete character and trying to sell it through the forums?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dave Stark
7590
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:28:45 -
[3036] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:a25639 wrote:Maybe sp farming is indeed going to be necessary to satisfy demand. After all character farming is necessary now as well to satisfy character demand. Yes, but is it easier to extract 500,000 SP off of any character and sell it immediately in Jita, or making/giving up a whole complete character and trying to sell it through the forums?
I imagine the best opportunity will be to purchase "imperfect" characters.
you strip out something like mining V, top up some of the support skills with it. sell any left over SP for profit and you're left with a perfect focused character that has lost almost no resale value. |
Jared Khanar
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:29:47 -
[3037] - Quote
Imagine Alliance XYZ. They have trained to fly a specific doctrine because it-¦s the most efficient one. There are many alts involved to support fleets and stuff. They are rich ingamewise and reaching their goals.
Now a feature like sp trading is implemented. As eve is changing constantly this alliance is forced to build up sp farms and activly use it. Why could this be?
Imagine new ships, modifications of existing ones... suddenly the doctrine of this alliance is nomore as effective as they would like to. Maybe they can easily be countered now... so a new doctrine gets developed by fc-¦s and alliance leadership - the new most effective doctrine within the new mechanics. but people have trained for the old doctrines, for the old fittings and fleets. with an established alt-sp farm (the alts are there and payed and their sps are maybe not needed for their purposes) this alliance is now able to almost instantly switch their pvp characters to the new developed doctrine. this may involve huge amounts of isk, but massive alliances are able to pay. so opponents without these sp farms or without the needed assets / isks are suddenly no more competitive within hours. also the choices made bevorehand - which skills to train, which ships to head for, have no impact anymore.
Also, as a side effect, this system can easily be exploited by ccp itself. if something like described above is happening and the company needs money, theres no reason not to change some small apsects here and there, generating an outcome that motivates players to sell / buy / reallocate sps for that instant, needed cashdrop? |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4184
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:31:03 -
[3038] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:a25639 wrote:Maybe sp farming is indeed going to be necessary to satisfy demand. After all character farming is necessary now as well to satisfy character demand. Yes, but is it easier to extract 500,000 SP off of any character and sell it immediately in Jita, or making/giving up a whole complete character and trying to sell it through the forums? I imagine the best opportunity will be to purchase "imperfect" characters. you strip out something like mining V, top up some of the support skills with it. sell any left over SP for profit and you're left with a perfect focused character that has lost almost no resale value. Yeah, agree.
Also, people would certainly pay a premium for a well-built character, compared to the tedium (and probable mistakes) of manually allocating even just 20 million SP.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dave Stark
7590
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:32:18 -
[3039] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Imagine Alliance XYZ. They have trained to fly a specific doctrine because it-¦s the most efficient one. There are many alts involved to support fleets and stuff. They are rich ingamewise and reaching their goals.
Now a feature like sp trading is implemented. As eve is changing constantly this alliance is forced to build up sp farms and activly use it. Why could this be?
Imagine new ships, modifications of existing ones... suddenly the doctrine of this alliance is nomore as effective as they would like to. Maybe they can easily be countered now... so a new doctrine gets developed by fc-¦s and alliance leadership - the new most effective op doctrine within the new mechanics. but peaople have trained for the old doctrines, for the old fittings and fleets. with an established alt-sp farm (the alts are there and payed and their sps are maybe not needed for their purposes) it this alliance is now able to almost instantly switch their pvp characters to the new developed doctrine. this may involve huge amounts of isk, but massive alliances are able to pay. so opponents without these sp farms or without the needed assets / isks are suddenly no more competitive within hours. also the choices made bevorehand - which skills to train, which ships to head for, have no impact anymore.
Also, as a side effect, this system can easily be exploited by sccp itself. if something like described above is happening and the company needs money, theres no reason not to change some small apsects here and there, generating an outcome that motivates players to sell / buy / reallocate sps for that instant, needed cashdrop?
this is literally no different to the situation we have now.
sell the pilot that can't fly the new doctrine, buy one that can.
****, for a decent price you can get one that can fly pretty much all the doctrines to begin with. for less than 100m SP there's very few subcap doctrines you can't fly well.
not to mention you're casually ignoring the logistics of moving/producing thousands of new doctrine ships - which pretty much always has been and always will be a bigger issue than getting people able to fly them. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4184
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:33:59 -
[3040] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Imagine Alliance XYZ. They have trained to fly a specific doctrine because it-¦s the most efficient one. There are many alts involved to support fleets and stuff. They are rich ingamewise and reaching their goals.
Now a feature like sp trading is implemented. As eve is changing constantly this alliance is forced to build up sp farms and activly use it. Why could this be?
Imagine new ships, modifications of existing ones... suddenly the doctrine of this alliance is nomore as effective as they would like to. Maybe they can easily be countered now... so a new doctrine gets developed by fc-¦s and alliance leadership - the new most effective doctrine within the new mechanics. but people have trained for the old doctrines, for the old fittings and fleets. with an established alt-sp farm (the alts are there and payed and their sps are maybe not needed for their purposes) this alliance is now able to almost instantly switch their pvp characters to the new developed doctrine. this may involve huge amounts of isk, but massive alliances are able to pay. so opponents without these sp farms or without the needed assets / isks are suddenly no more competitive within hours. also the choices made bevorehand - which skills to train, which ships to head for, have no impact anymore.
Also, as a side effect, this system can easily be exploited by ccp itself. if something like described above is happening and the company needs money, theres no reason not to change some small apsects here and there, generating an outcome that motivates players to sell / buy / reallocate sps for that instant, needed cashdrop? Yes, I'm sure goons are already making grand plans for the new system. No tinfoil or grr goons - they're just really good at creating and implementing complex schemes.
As for your last point, that would truly be despicable.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
|
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
107
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:34:30 -
[3041] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Mike Azariah wrote: I sit in Rookie Help Chat and listen to new players trying to figure out how to play for free. How to earn that 1.2 bill within 30 days. Those types, will they stay if I tell them that not only is it unlikely but that they will have to pay extra to be decent at the game.
It would be an added option in the game not a requirement. They can still wait to train into ships and based on the costs in the Aurum store most will wait most of the time. A few may exercise this option, or buy a character. But this isn't changing much.
Actually it does change a lot in new player experience. A player starting the game will then be unable to compete not only with older players but also with those of his peers that bough SP. So he will receive a very clear message: first pay for the sub, then grid/pay for the isk and finally pay for the progress (or be left behind). There is a major difference from character bazaar here. A player with say 2-4m SP isn't going to engage in activities targeted by a 30m SP char bough off the bazaar. But he will meet players of similar age that performs better than him, because, for example they bought 1.2m SP in core skills. After this change retention in new subs will drop. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
173
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:34:45 -
[3042] - Quote
Colt Blackhawk wrote:I read again some posts and I have to say I am astonished. So people just cry "NOOO" and you can see 60% of all whiners didn-¦t even read the full stuff of proposed changes.
This change won-¦t hardly affect the higher sp players. It simply won-¦t make sense to buy SP if you ave already 100mil sp. This toon for example has almost 70mil sp. NO way buing a ton of sp for this toon. Just do the maths and READ THE DAMN BLOG and now calculate how many sp you would literally trash to get from 70mil to 120mil. In fact the sp destruction due to conversion losses would even first time in eve history decline the total sp groth/player in eve.
Benefits of the proposed changes are mostly for new players. For example: Player A starts mining career, after some months he does accdentaly his first pvp. Now he has almost evrything in mining and no pvp skills. So player A is angry and maybe quits the game because he sees that mining is boring OR he quits the game for four months and lets his skill queue run until his toon is ready for pvp. Why does nobody see this mess???
Ah yes because eve is a vet game and all those vets cry 24/7 about eve is dying and no new players but on the other side they want those new players only for easy targets and to show them how superior the vets are^^ Eve needs a BIG change to attract new players. Forget all those old crying bittervets. The are also responsible for the declining eve player numbers but they refuse to accept it. Maybe the community is the biggest foe of eve actually.
Another benefit is: You skilled on op ship X. CCP nerfs it and you see all your SP have been wasted for this ship. So the wasted SP you do not need any more belong to CCPs responsibility and not yours. With the new changes you can reskill but for the tradeoff of loosing some skill points.
Next thingie: All the bittervets cryinhg about "this is pay to win" refusing to realise they are playing pay2win already for years amuse me. Eve is already pay2win. You want to be a pvp solo god? Just buy plex with money, sell it and buy all the toons you need for solo pvp on char basar. OGB toon: Check. Cloaky falcon toon: CHeck. Cloaky logi toon: Check.
But I bet the whining of all those whiners goes on and on.
These changes WILL make it a lot easier for new players and this is the right direction.
So in other words you want CCP to sacrifice the vets in hopes of attracting new players? Most of the Vets would probably leave and the ones that remain would make it their sole purpose to torture the new blood without mercy. New players spend more and more money to try to get even (to no avail) and the remaining bittervets continues to punish the vengeful new blood. New blood loses faith in game and say it's rigged and leave. Bittervets gets bored with new blood PCU declines and then they leave.. for good. The end of eve. I can see this happening all within the span of a year.
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Jared Khanar
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:37:17 -
[3043] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
this is literally no different to the situation we have now.
sell the pilot that can't fly the new doctrine, buy one that can.
****, for a decent price you can get one that can fly pretty much all the doctrines to begin with. for less than 100m SP there's very few subcap doctrines you can't fly well.
not to mention you're casually ignoring the logistics of moving/producing thousands of new doctrine ships - which pretty much always has been and always will be a bigger issue than getting people able to fly them.
hs, low, null, wh - is it all the same? is everyone in need to import their stuff, flying through the half universe tio get it to their members? Are there enough characters on the bazaar to buy one for every member in your alliance? is this really the same we have today? Changes are not announced early enough so we can prepare production? Really?
And if it really is all the same - why introduce something that has no impact in the first place? |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4184
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:37:26 -
[3044] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:The end of eve. I can see this happening all within the span of a year. I'm betting on you being clueless instead.
We'll see who was right next October 2016!
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
173
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:40:05 -
[3045] - Quote
Big Lynx wrote:Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here?
So obvious that he's a Dev alt. Why else would a regular pilot defend this atrocious feature throughout the entire 150+ pages of this thread. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
173
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:41:33 -
[3046] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:The end of eve. I can see this happening all within the span of a year. I'm betting on you being clueless instead. We'll see who was right next October 2016!
If this goes through, I won't be around to find out, nor would I care. |
Dave Stark
7590
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:42:00 -
[3047] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
this is literally no different to the situation we have now.
sell the pilot that can't fly the new doctrine, buy one that can.
****, for a decent price you can get one that can fly pretty much all the doctrines to begin with. for less than 100m SP there's very few subcap doctrines you can't fly well.
not to mention you're casually ignoring the logistics of moving/producing thousands of new doctrine ships - which pretty much always has been and always will be a bigger issue than getting people able to fly them.
hs, low, null, wh - is it all the same? is everyone in need to import their stuff, flying through the half universe tio get it to their members? Are there enough characters on the bazaar to buy one for every member in your alliance? is this really the same we have today? Changes are not announced early enough so we can prepare production? Really?
the game has been out 3-4 times longer than i've been playing. i can fly literally every subcap with t2 weapons, perfect supports etc. had i not bothered training things like exhumers V i would be a perfect subcap pilot and then some.
characters like mine aren't rare on the bazaar. most people already have them, you don't need to get all of your alliance new characters, just the new characters themselves. looking at the PCU - how many new characters do you think that really is?
the demand is nowhere near as high as i think you think it is. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
107
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:42:28 -
[3048] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Big Lynx wrote:Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here? So obvious that he's a Dev alt. Why else would a regular pilot defend this atrocious feature throughout the entire 150+ pages of this thread.
Its Dave Stark padding the thread in (futile) hope that the message will be lost in noise. |
Dave Stark
7590
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:43:25 -
[3049] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Big Lynx wrote:Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here? So obvious that he's a Dev alt. Why else would a regular pilot defend this atrocious feature throughout the entire 150+ pages of this thread.
for like the 5th time, i'm not defending this idea. i'm just pointing out that nobody has managed to actually come out with an argument as to why this idea is bad.
Delegate wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Big Lynx wrote:Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here? So obvious that he's a Dev alt. Why else would a regular pilot defend this atrocious feature throughout the entire 150+ pages of this thread. It's Dave Stark padding the thread in (futile) hope that the message will be lost in noise.
if i wanted it to be lost in noise i'd just let the people against it drown out any discussion of this new feature with all their whining of preexisting problems that have 0 to do with the suggested idea.
besides, i don't post on eve-o much, gotta get as many posts in as i can in the short time i'm here. |
Jared Khanar
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:45:34 -
[3050] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: the game has been out 3-4 times longer than i've been playing. i can fly literally every subcap with t2 weapons, perfect supports etc. had i not bothered training things like exhumers V i would be a perfect subcap pilot and then some.
characters like mine aren't rare on the bazaar. most people already have them, you don't need to get all of your alliance new characters, just the new characters themselves. looking at the PCU - how many new characters do you think that really is?
the demand is nowhere near as high as i think you think it is.
So what are the positive effects from a feature without demand, that affects noone, cause you can do everything it brings already now? What else than milking the players wallet further? |
|
Dave Stark
7590
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:46:17 -
[3051] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Dave Stark wrote: the game has been out 3-4 times longer than i've been playing. i can fly literally every subcap with t2 weapons, perfect supports etc. had i not bothered training things like exhumers V i would be a perfect subcap pilot and then some.
characters like mine aren't rare on the bazaar. most people already have them, you don't need to get all of your alliance new characters, just the new characters themselves. looking at the PCU - how many new characters do you think that really is?
the demand is nowhere near as high as i think you think it is.
So what are the positive effects from a feature without demand, that affects noone, cause you can do everything it brings already now? What else than milking the players wallet further?
your hypothetical is nowhere near the sum total of demand.
look at the devblog, there are over 25000 transfers per year. the demand for buying and selling SP is very substantial. |
Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group
162
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:47:08 -
[3052] - Quote
The metagaming that this is going to lead to is absurd. Do we really need to make spying less work then it is now?
If you don't think the sp will be hoarded and the market manipulated you are just being silly. The current system doesn't really allow for that, and I think that is a very good thing.
These changes just give even more power to the most powerful groups, and for no reason. There is really very little gain, especially for new players. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:47:32 -
[3053] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:On the other hand, after the SP 'reservoir' is released, you'd still have a lot of active accounts that could extract some or all of their monthly SP... hard to say how strong this 'constant' SP flow will be. Correct. However, the market will stabilise eventually at some price point. We have an upper limit of about 0.25 PLEX. But we have an absolute lower limit as well, which is the ISK equivalent of the AUR extractor cost. I don't think the price has been announced, but say it is 0.05 PLEX. Then you know that the price will stabilise between 0.05 PLEX and 0.25 PLEX.
I think SP trading will be big enough in volume to make this happen fairly quickly, and indeed to make it difficult even for ISK and/or SP rich individuals to shake it up significantly. The really interesting part would be the first few days, or maybe weeks. I think massive ISK fortunes can and will be made, or lost, by speculating on the future price point there. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
110
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:49:04 -
[3054] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Big Lynx wrote:Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here? So obvious that he's a Dev alt. Why else would a regular pilot defend this atrocious feature throughout the entire 150+ pages of this thread. It's Dave Stark padding the thread in (futile) hope that the message will be lost in noise. if i wanted it to be lost in noise i'd just let the people against it drown out any discussion of this new feature with all their whining of preexisting problems that have 0 to do with the suggested idea. besides, i don't post on eve-o much, gotta get as many posts in as i can in the short time i'm here.
You might have some luck in padding this thread with noise, if there were wasn't that many voices opposing SP trading. At this point your efforts are pathetic. |
Dave Stark
7590
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:49:53 -
[3055] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Big Lynx wrote:Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here? So obvious that he's a Dev alt. Why else would a regular pilot defend this atrocious feature throughout the entire 150+ pages of this thread. It's Dave Stark padding the thread in (futile) hope that the message will be lost in noise. if i wanted it to be lost in noise i'd just let the people against it drown out any discussion of this new feature with all their whining of preexisting problems that have 0 to do with the suggested idea. besides, i don't post on eve-o much, gotta get as many posts in as i can in the short time i'm here. You might have some luck in padding this thread with noise, if there were wasn't that many voices opposing SP trading. At this point your efforts are pathetic.
as i pointed out earlier, it's as if all the stupid is contained on eve-o as everywhere else is nowhere near as negative about this change. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
209
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:51:28 -
[3056] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Dave Stark wrote: the game has been out 3-4 times longer than i've been playing. i can fly literally every subcap with t2 weapons, perfect supports etc. had i not bothered training things like exhumers V i would be a perfect subcap pilot and then some.
characters like mine aren't rare on the bazaar. most people already have them, you don't need to get all of your alliance new characters, just the new characters themselves. looking at the PCU - how many new characters do you think that really is?
the demand is nowhere near as high as i think you think it is.
So what are the positive effects from a feature without demand, that affects noone, cause you can do everything it brings already now? What else than milking the players wallet further? your hypothetical is nowhere near the sum total of demand. look at the devblog, there are over 25000 transfers per year. the demand for buying and selling SP is very substantial.
You avoided his question, for obvious reasons of course. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4185
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:51:29 -
[3057] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:On the other hand, after the SP 'reservoir' is released, you'd still have a lot of active accounts that could extract some or all of their monthly SP... hard to say how strong this 'constant' SP flow will be. Correct. However, the market will stabilise eventually at some price point. We have an upper limit of about 0.25 PLEX. But we have an absolute lower limit as well, which is the ISK equivalent of the AUR extractor cost. I don't think the price has been announced, but say it is 0.05 PLEX. Then you know that the price will stabilise between 0.05 PLEX and 0.25 PLEX. I think SP trading will be big enough in volume to make this happen fairly quickly, and indeed to make it difficult even for ISK and/or SP rich individuals to shake it up significantly. The really interesting part would be the first few days, or maybe weeks. I think massive ISK fortunes can and will be made, or lost, by speculating on the future price point there. Aye.
I would also expect several ISK-trillionaires and also the major alliances to actively try to influence the price, either for ISK-gain or (in the alliances case) to cheaply offer SP-packs to their members.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Jared Khanar
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:53:18 -
[3058] - Quote
ship replacement programs get extended with sp accumulation programs :D Then recruit a few hundred f1 drones and launch your project ... |
Dave Stark
7590
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:54:35 -
[3059] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Dave Stark wrote: the game has been out 3-4 times longer than i've been playing. i can fly literally every subcap with t2 weapons, perfect supports etc. had i not bothered training things like exhumers V i would be a perfect subcap pilot and then some.
characters like mine aren't rare on the bazaar. most people already have them, you don't need to get all of your alliance new characters, just the new characters themselves. looking at the PCU - how many new characters do you think that really is?
the demand is nowhere near as high as i think you think it is.
So what are the positive effects from a feature without demand, that affects noone, cause you can do everything it brings already now? What else than milking the players wallet further? your hypothetical is nowhere near the sum total of demand. look at the devblog, there are over 25000 transfers per year. the demand for buying and selling SP is very substantial. You avoided his question, for obvious reasons of course.
where did i avoid it? he claimed there was no demand in this feature and as such what was the value. his question is irrelevant since there quite obviously is a demand for it.
i demonstrated there was value in it, because there is a demand for it. i quite literally answered his question. |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1398
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:55:02 -
[3060] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Cearain wrote:Mike Azariah wrote: I sit in Rookie Help Chat and listen to new players trying to figure out how to play for free. How to earn that 1.2 bill within 30 days. Those types, will they stay if I tell them that not only is it unlikely but that they will have to pay extra to be decent at the game.
It would be an added option in the game not a requirement. They can still wait to train into ships and based on the costs in the Aurum store most will wait most of the time. A few may exercise this option, or buy a character. But this isn't changing much. Actually it does change a lot in new player experience. After this, a player starting the game will be unable to compete not only with older players but also with those of his peers that bought SP. So he will receive a very clear message: first pay for the sub, then grid/pay for the ISK and finally pay for the progress (or be left behind). There is a major difference from character bazaar here. A player with say 2-4m SP isn't going to engage in activities targeted by a 30m SP char bough off the bazaar. But he will meet players of similar age that performs better than him, because, for example, they bought 1.2m SP in core skills. After this change retention in new subs will drop.
Every year the game has existed the new player has had to compete at a larger and larger skill point disadvantage. It is only right that ccp would give new players more options to deal with this disadvantage.
Eve has been around a long time. If you started when the game came out no one already had more skill points than you. When I started in 2009 there were more people who already had a leg up on me. Now there even more characters that have more skill points than a new player.
I do not understand you point about the bazarr. If new player A does not buy a character from the bazarr but player B does then player A will not be as competitive as player B.
Asking a new player to come up with the isk to buy an entirely new character is asking too much. But giving a new player the option to get some core skills is more reasonable. Assuming the price is reasonable.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Jared Khanar
18
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:55:58 -
[3061] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: where did i avoid it? he claimed there was no demand in this feature and as such what was the value. his question is irrelevant since there quite obviously is a demand for it.
i demonstrated there was value in it, because there is a demand for it. i quite literally answered his question.
I didn-¦t claim this, i ask why do you?
Dave Stark wrote: characters like mine aren't rare on the bazaar. most people already have them, you don't need to get all of your alliance new characters, just the new characters themselves. looking at the PCU - how many new characters do you think that really is?
the demand is nowhere near as high as i think you think it is.
|
Dave Stark
7590
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:58:09 -
[3062] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Dave Stark wrote: where did i avoid it? he claimed there was no demand in this feature and as such what was the value. his question is irrelevant since there quite obviously is a demand for it.
i demonstrated there was value in it, because there is a demand for it. i quite literally answered his question.
I didn-¦t claim this, i ask why do you?
"So what are the positive effects from a feature without demand,"
it was the OPENING LINE of your post. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
112
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:58:22 -
[3063] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:as i pointed out earlier, it's as if all the stupid is contained on eve-o as everywhere else is nowhere near as negative about this change.
Yes, of course, all the stupid is contained on eve-o. Solid arguments you've got there. Place continue with the noise.
|
shaun 27
Bulldog Industry
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:59:27 -
[3064] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Big Lynx wrote:Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here? So obvious that he's a Dev alt. Why else would a regular pilot defend this atrocious feature throughout the entire 150+ pages of this thread.
or hes a market trader looking for the next big thing to make his isk on. |
Jared Khanar
18
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:59:51 -
[3065] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: it was the OPENING LINE of your post.
ok why not:
Dave Stark wrote: this is literally no different to the situation we have now.
Something that is obsolete is not needed - your statement - so i ask again - if implementing this feature doesn-¦t change anything because we already can do everything it brings - as you say - why do we need it? |
Dave Stark
7590
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:59:55 -
[3066] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:as i pointed out earlier, it's as if all the stupid is contained on eve-o as everywhere else is nowhere near as negative about this change. Yes, of course, all the stupid is contained on eve-o. Solid arguments you've got there. Place continue with the noise.
it is a solid argument. you're pretending everyone hates this idea and i'm the only one that likes it because you've read a few pages of this thread.
funfact; this isn't the only place for feedback. |
Dave Stark
7590
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:00:54 -
[3067] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Dave Stark wrote: it was the OPENING LINE of your post.
ok why not: Dave Stark wrote: this is literally no different to the situation we have now.
Something that is obsolete ias not needed - your statement
for the same reason we have absolute superstars like CCP karkur and punkturis improving the UI, and market features. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
101
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:01:05 -
[3068] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
Every year the game has existed the new player has had to compete at a larger and larger skill point disadvantage. It is only right that ccp would give new players more options to deal with this disadvantage.
This I agree with 100%, however paying more RL cash on top of a subscription to get enough SPs to compete is going to leave a nasty taste for a lot of new guys, that's how many will perceive this. Far better to remove learning implants and max attributes and scale down training time modifiers on core skills to compensate the ever growing distance towards end game stuffs. If CCP want to bring new guys into the game quicker they'd do this, if they just want a desperate cash grab, they skim brokerage fees for our unwanted SPs... |
Dave Stark
7590
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:03:57 -
[3069] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:This I agree with 100%, however paying more RL cash on top of a subscription to get enough SPs to compete is going to leave a nasty taste for a lot of new guys, that's how many will perceive this.
they aren't paying more RL cash, though.
they can either pay for 10 months SP now, or pay for 10 months sp one month at a time and accumulate it over 10 months.
the total paid is the same, as is the amount of SP.
scratch that, the "extra" you pay will be the cost of extractors. which remains to be seen... |
Jared Khanar
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:07:01 -
[3070] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:This I agree with 100%, however paying more RL cash on top of a subscription to get enough SPs to compete is going to leave a nasty taste for a lot of new guys, that's how many will perceive this. they aren't paying more RL cash, though. they can either pay for 10 months SP now, or pay for 10 months sp one month at a time and accumulate it over 10 months. the total paid is the same, as is the amount of SP. scratch that, the "extra" you pay will be the cost of extractors. which remains to be seen...
So it has the effect they are paying all this rl cash INSTANTLY. how nice they are to give ccp the money for maybe a year as soon as they arrive ... money ccp would have to wait soooo long until they get their hands on it (what a shame, isn-¦t it?). And if you can fly the ship you like now... maybe as a new player ... theres clearly no need to invest in further plexes to buy these ... or alts to support them ... which also get an sp boost maybe ...
Got it :) |
|
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
114
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:09:33 -
[3071] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Delegate wrote:Cearain wrote:It would be an added option in the game not a requirement. They can still wait to train into ships and based on the costs in the Aurum store most will wait most of the time. A few may exercise this option, or buy a character. But this isn't changing much. Actually it does change a lot in new player experience. After this, a player starting the game will be unable to compete not only with older players but also with those of his peers that bought SP. So he will receive a very clear message: first pay for the sub, then grid/pay for the ISK and finally pay for the progress (or be left behind). There is a major difference from character bazaar here. A player with say 2-4m SP isn't going to engage in activities targeted by a 30m SP char bough off the bazaar. But he will meet players of similar age that performs better than him, because, for example, they bought 1.2m SP in core skills. After this change retention in new subs will drop. [...] I do not understand you point about the bazarr. If new player A does not buy a character from the bazarr but player B does then player A will not be as competitive as player B. [...]
But the 2-4m SP A will not be doing stuff that B will engage in. Nevertheless A will meet a direct competitor C, that plays in the same league than A, but is stronger due to 1.2m bought SP. For a new player experience that is a big turn down. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
102
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:18:08 -
[3072] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:This I agree with 100%, however paying more RL cash on top of a subscription to get enough SPs to compete is going to leave a nasty taste for a lot of new guys, that's how many will perceive this. they aren't paying more RL cash, though. they can either pay for 10 months SP now, or pay for 10 months sp one month at a time and accumulate it over 10 months. the total paid is the same, as is the amount of SP. scratch that, the "extra" you pay will be the cost of extractors. which remains to be seen...
More *upfront* and my point is that will be the PERCEPTION for many ... maybe not technically accurate when logically dissected but that doesn't really matter does it ? If new players perceive that CCP is reaming them for RL cash right at the start of their EvE experience they will be less likely to stick around and some may not subscribe at all. The very fact that some posters in this thread are citing the skill gap/veteran advantage demonstrates that the perception of needing more skillpoints exists and so the perception that a new player will need to pay for a sub and X amount of Skillpoints will be held by many and it won't be popular, it will seem like CCP fleecing new players.
I am all for buffing newbros, give them more starting SPs, buff cerebral accelerators, make training times shorter, remove learning implants and fix the attributes at maximum level... whatever CCP can do to speed up entry to the game without asking new guys to pay more than the sub. It ought to get more people to subscribe.
Seems to me like a choice between longer term new player recruitment tactics vs. a short term cynical cash grab. |
Dave Stark
7591
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:18:21 -
[3073] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:how nice they are to give ccp the money for maybe a year as soon as they arrive ... money ccp would have to wait soooo long until they get their hands on it (what a shame, isn-¦t it?).
erm. 12 month subscriptions are already a thing. |
Dave Stark
7591
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:20:20 -
[3074] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:a short term cynical cash grab.
it's no more of a cash grab than we already have.
you either buy a character - or you buy SP packets. you won't do both. it's not a new cash grab you're just moving from character transfer revenue to skill extractor/aur revenue. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4186
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:20:22 -
[3075] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Actually it does change a lot in new player experience. After this, a player starting the game will be unable to compete not only with older players but also with those of his peers that bought SP. So he will receive a very clear message: first pay for the sub, then grid/pay for the ISK and finally pay for the progress (or be left behind). There is a major difference from character bazaar here. A player with say 2-4m SP isn't going to engage in activities targeted by a 30m SP char bough off the bazaar. But he will meet players of similar age that performs better than him, because, for example, they bought 1.2m SP in core skills. After this change retention in new subs will drop. It could change new players' perception, which unfortunately is not good.
But nothing really changes, because EVE is far from a battle arena game.
There are infinite possible objectives, and infinite ways to compete.
A geniunely new player with no 'boosts' (SP, PLEX, etc.) whatsoever that for example tries to learn PVP and joins a good corp will 'win' EVE (have fun, enjoy the game) much more than someone that buys a 50M char just to make more ISK/h running L4 missions in highsec.
We all know by now that a good NPE is getting people into fun group play ASAP. The option, or lack of it, to buy SP or ISK makes no significant difference (except probably corps offering packets to newbros to help them out).
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Jared Khanar
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:21:13 -
[3076] - Quote
Simply ty sp generation non-linear to character age if on a payed account - the older the char gets - the lower the generation - maybe cap at xy mio sp so generationspeed gets not lower anymore. newer players catching up - problem solved. no need for additional payment. coded in maybe hours only - cheap development. |
Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:22:24 -
[3077] - Quote
Dave Stark, you had my answer. And you still have not proven my argument wrong.
Dave Stark wrote:[funfact; this isn't the only place for feedback.
It is the place where this discussion is taking place. I wish you would back up your claim against my argument here, in a dialectical way.
Last time that GÇ£greed was goodGÇ¥, the information was leaked. This time it was posted.
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4186
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:22:26 -
[3078] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Simply ty sp generation non-linear to character age if on a payed account - the older the char gets - the lower the generation - newer players catching up - problem solved Ehmmmmm..... that's already the case, go check the time vs. benefit of lvl V skills.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dave Stark
7591
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:22:54 -
[3079] - Quote
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark, you had my answer. And you still have not proven my argument wrong. Dave Stark wrote:[funfact; this isn't the only place for feedback. It is the place where this discussion is taking place. I wish you would back up your claim against my argument here, in a dialectiacal way.
what claim? |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
174
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:24:40 -
[3080] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Cearain wrote:
Every year the game has existed the new player has had to compete at a larger and larger skill point disadvantage. It is only right that ccp would give new players more options to deal with this disadvantage.
This I agree with 100%, however paying more RL cash on top of a subscription to get enough SPs to compete is going to leave a nasty taste for a lot of new guys, that's how many will perceive this. Far better to remove learning implants and max attributes and scale down training time modifiers on core skills to compensate the ever growing distance towards end game stuffs. If CCP want to bring new guys into the game quicker they'd do this, if they just want a desperate cash grab, they skim brokerage fees for our unwanted SPs...
So you think CCP is desperate too huh. Well if they are desperate for cash to keep this game alive, I can understand them wanting to do something like this. But if it's sheer greed, then that's another matter. Either way there are other more appropriate alternatives that I'm willing to share if a Dev shows up to seek inquiries. |
|
Jared Khanar
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:25:23 -
[3081] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Simply ty sp generation non-linear to character age if on a payed account - the older the char gets - the lower the generation - newer players catching up - problem solved Ehmmmmm..... that's already the case, go check the time vs. benefit of lvl V skills.
Ok, thnx for the info it this is correct. But obvious there are voices that needs it to be faster. if this system is implemented already - even a shorter devtime is needed to change it :) |
Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:26:58 -
[3082] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark, you had my answer. And you still have not proven my argument wrong. Dave Stark wrote:[funfact; this isn't the only place for feedback. It is the place where this discussion is taking place. I wish you would back up your claim against my argument here, in a dialectiacal way. what claim?
Sorry, but it is up to you to follow the thread. If you can not keep track of the discourse, my suggestion would be to wind down your posting activity. I wish for quality instead of quantity when taking place in an argument.
Last time that GÇ£greed was goodGÇ¥, the information was leaked. This time it was posted.
|
Big Lynx
4044
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:27:45 -
[3083] - Quote
Wow, Dave. You stepping down to Gevlon Goblins and Lucas Kell's categories.... not a compliment though. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:27:58 -
[3084] - Quote
Dave Stark
If we strip away anything virtual from the game we have two constants in play, Time and Money
A legacy character is a snapshot in time, whether 12 years ago or 6 months ago even when unsubbed its frozen in time but in no way can it be manipulated. You can add time to it but it can never be reversed. There is no deconstruction of its timeline, It is a part of the ever evolving universe of eve from a conceptual point of origin.
Now comes a fresh approach, you now want to be able to reverse engineer the timeline. You now want to be able to create elite characters from fragments of time. The convergeance of multiple time streams to manipulate this creation at speed.
The legacy approach has a one off monetary payement, the Hybrid need feeding to progress its ever increasing need for time. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:28:33 -
[3085] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:I would also expect several ISK-trillionaires and also the major alliances to actively try to influence the price, either for ISK-gain or (in the alliances case) to cheaply offer SP-packs to their members. True. But the SP that will be sold is de facto dead SP. It's not being actively used, that is after all why it is being sold. The SP that is being bought is alive. Why spend ISK on it unless you want to do something with it? We may not approve of every use of that SP, and of course some will try to use this to further strengthen an already dominant position. But in the end this puts pressure on players to actually do something with their SP: dead SP becomes wasted SP. And in the long term this should increase net activity in the game, and hence the entertainment value.
I'm also not convinced that this will stabilise existing power structures into boredom. Skill-boosted newbies in bling ships will not necessarily win the day, but they will deplete even significant bank accounts fast. And if skill-boosted newbies turn out to be the way to EVE dominance, then watch the pressure on newbie recruitment go insane. Newbies would then be courted by everybody with ambition and a lot of ISK. It may well make this game really attractive for newbies if there is a massive competition for them. |
Dave Stark
7592
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:28:37 -
[3086] - Quote
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark, you had my answer. And you still have not proven my argument wrong. Dave Stark wrote:[funfact; this isn't the only place for feedback. It is the place where this discussion is taking place. I wish you would back up your claim against my argument here, in a dialectiacal way. what claim? Sorry, but it is up to you to follow the thread. If you can not keep track of the discourse, my suggestion would be to wind down your posting activity. I wish for quality instead of quantity when taking place in an argument.
i have been following the thread.
if you're talking about the point you made pages ago about there being no limit, i suggest YOU follow the thread as i addressed it twice since you failed to read it the first time. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4047
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:29:01 -
[3087] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Sibyyl wrote: CSM folks who oppose the change, or anyone else who's against it.
Can you point me to a cogent argument not using subjective buzzwords like "pay to win" why this change is bad?
OK, I am still catching up, but you asked nicely. There have been a few constants in Eve. Real-time for skill training and industry was one of them. Oh you can buy the item/ship and jump ahead but someone played that real time price. Same goes for the Character Bazaar. You may not have paid the time but someone did, with plex or cold hard cash. So CCP is looking at replacing it and who loses? On the surface? Nobody. We strip older characters or farmed alts and use them to fuel the newer ones. No loss, just out with the old, supercharge the new. But that is the thing. 'Stripping the old' but do you honestly think most of the skill points will go to NEW players? That it will increase retention or just make more alts of the vets? Is an increase in subs really a good thing if a lot of them are brood mares existing only to have their brains harvested on a regular basis . . . full of +5's and never ever undocking into space? Will that give us more content? Or will it just be numbers on some ledger? Will new players coming in look and see the rich instaboosting themselves into better ships and leaving the normal subscription player behind in the dust? Would you play a game like that where it was obviously a game of haves and have-nots and you were probably one of the have-nots? Or would you pour your own money in and hope it was enough to keep up? I sit in Rookie Help Chat and listen to new players trying to figure out how to play for free. How to earn that 1.2 bill within 30 days. Those types, will they stay if I tell them that not only is it unlikely but that they will have to pay extra to be decent at the game. If they listen and do pay to be able to fly . . . say an incursion or a null rat ship . . . in the first week then they will be well on the road to playing for free, right? Since increased demand for those elusive PLEX will have no effect on the market. A lot of people are saying that this is fine since it will not effect them or maybe they can use it to rearrange their own skills, clean up that shameful mining V. I just hope they are very space rich or already used to paying subscriptions. I am in the latter category. I'll still be here but IF this goes through I will be a bit more bitter and somewhat disappointed with what the game has become. Pay to win? no, but what about Pay to keep up m
+1.
I hope/expect that CCP has already studied that, since it is a dangerous change to how subscription money works for the subscribers. Being given a equal chance to pay extra money and enjoy a better game experience is a mean of double-charging the customers, and that's quite a terrible thing for subscription services.
RL wealthy and alliance backed noobs will take advantage of the system. The rest will see how, on top of all hardhisps involved in the NPE, they are being left behind since CCP considers that their subscription money is not enough...
And then, how it is players' fault if their susbscription money isn't enough for CCP? CCP should adapt to their income, rather than blackmail the players about being left behind in a competitive game.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
102
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:29:52 -
[3088] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:how nice they are to give ccp the money for maybe a year as soon as they arrive ... money ccp would have to wait soooo long until they get their hands on it (what a shame, isn-¦t it?). erm. 12 month subscriptions are already a thing.
I'm guessing they are not popular with first time players though, neither will subscription plus X amount Skillpoints.
|
Dave Stark
7592
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:30:57 -
[3089] - Quote
Big Lynx wrote:Wow, Dave. You stepping down to Gevlon Goblins and Lucas Kell's categories.... not a compliment though.
but i'll always be significantly better looking, i have a beard.
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark
If we strip away anything virtual from the game we have two constants in play, Time and Money
A legacy character is a snapshot in time, whether 12 years ago or 6 months ago even when unsubbed its frozen in time but in no way can it be manipulated. You can add time to it but it can never be reversed. There is no deconstruction of its timeline, It is a part of the ever evolving universe of eve from a conceptual point of origin.
Now comes a fresh approach, you now want to be able to reverse engineer the timeline. You now want to be able to create elite characters from fragments of time. The convergeance of multiple time streams to manipulate this creation at speed.
The legacy approach has a one off monetary payement, the Hybrid need feeding to progress its ever increasing need for time.
what does the time a character trained a skill matter? |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4186
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:31:35 -
[3090] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Simply ty sp generation non-linear to character age if on a payed account - the older the char gets - the lower the generation - newer players catching up - problem solved Ehmmmmm..... that's already the case, go check the time vs. benefit of lvl V skills. EDIT: thats a different mechanic i believe - i refer to generall / overall sp generation speed not bound to a specific skill or its level Yeah, I got that. But the only point of SP is to get skills, and the only point of skills is to do stuff and do it better.
The rapidly increasing lvl I-II-III-IV-V SP requirements compared to the linear benefits that each level gives already reach the practical result you're suggesting: newbros getting closer to vets faster, in terms of what they can fly and skill-related bonuses.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
174
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:31:39 -
[3091] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:a short term cynical cash grab. it's no more of a cash grab than we already have. you either buy a character - or you buy SP packets. you won't do both. it's not a new cash grab you're just moving from character transfer revenue to skill extractor/aur revenue.
Either you're a Dev alt or someone is offering you something to do this. Which is it?
|
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
114
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:33:06 -
[3092] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Delegate wrote:Actually it does change a lot in new player experience. After this, a player starting the game will be unable to compete not only with older players but also with those of his peers that bought SP. So he will receive a very clear message: first pay for the sub, then grid/pay for the ISK and finally pay for the progress (or be left behind). There is a major difference from character bazaar here. A player with say 2-4m SP isn't going to engage in activities targeted by a 30m SP char bough off the bazaar. But he will meet players of similar age that performs better than him, because, for example, they bought 1.2m SP in core skills. After this change retention in new subs will drop. It could change new players' perception, which unfortunately is not good.
For a moment of purely academic fun, I tried to pinpoint the difference between new player experience and how new player "perceive" the game. Academic, because we both know that the decision to keep playing comes from how you perceive the game.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:33:39 -
[3093] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Big Lynx wrote:Wow, Dave. You stepping down to Gevlon Goblins and Lucas Kell's categories.... not a compliment though. but i'll always be significantly better looking, i have a beard. Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark
If we strip away anything virtual from the game we have two constants in play, Time and Money
A legacy character is a snapshot in time, whether 12 years ago or 6 months ago even when unsubbed its frozen in time but in no way can it be manipulated. You can add time to it but it can never be reversed. There is no deconstruction of its timeline, It is a part of the ever evolving universe of eve from a conceptual point of origin.
Now comes a fresh approach, you now want to be able to reverse engineer the timeline. You now want to be able to create elite characters from fragments of time. The convergeance of multiple time streams to manipulate this creation at speed.
The legacy approach has a one off monetary payement, the Hybrid need feeding to progress its ever increasing need for time. what does the time a character trained a skill matter?
You told me yesterday theres no difference in a bazaar character and a TSP one, there is. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4186
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:33:41 -
[3094] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:I would also expect several ISK-trillionaires and also the major alliances to actively try to influence the price, either for ISK-gain or (in the alliances case) to cheaply offer SP-packs to their members. True. But the SP that will be sold is de facto dead SP. It's not being actively used, that is after all why it is being sold. The SP that is being bought is alive. Why spend ISK on it unless you want to do something with it? We may not approve of every use of that SP, and of course some will try to use this to further strengthen an already dominant position. But in the end this puts pressure on players to actually do something with their SP: dead SP becomes wasted SP. And in the long term this should increase net activity in the game, and hence the entertainment value. I'm also not convinced that this will stabilise existing power structures into boredom. Skill-boosted newbies in bling ships will not necessarily win the day, but they will deplete even significant bank accounts fast. And if skill-boosted newbies turn out to be the way to EVE dominance, then watch the pressure on newbie recruitment go insane. Newbies would then be courted by everybody with ambition and a lot of ISK. It may well make this game really attractive for newbies if there is a massive competition for them. Interesting points.
I'm naturally optimistic, and possibilities like these are what eventually sold me on this idea (after initial aversion).
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dave Stark
7592
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:34:23 -
[3095] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:a short term cynical cash grab. it's no more of a cash grab than we already have. you either buy a character - or you buy SP packets. you won't do both. it's not a new cash grab you're just moving from character transfer revenue to skill extractor/aur revenue. Either you're a Dev alt or someone is offering you something to do this. Which is it?
nobody has to offer me anything to state a fact. the joy of knowing some one's incorrect argument fell apart because of it is payment enough. |
Dave Stark
7592
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:35:34 -
[3096] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Big Lynx wrote:Wow, Dave. You stepping down to Gevlon Goblins and Lucas Kell's categories.... not a compliment though. but i'll always be significantly better looking, i have a beard. Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark
If we strip away anything virtual from the game we have two constants in play, Time and Money
A legacy character is a snapshot in time, whether 12 years ago or 6 months ago even when unsubbed its frozen in time but in no way can it be manipulated. You can add time to it but it can never be reversed. There is no deconstruction of its timeline, It is a part of the ever evolving universe of eve from a conceptual point of origin.
Now comes a fresh approach, you now want to be able to reverse engineer the timeline. You now want to be able to create elite characters from fragments of time. The convergeance of multiple time streams to manipulate this creation at speed.
The legacy approach has a one off monetary payement, the Hybrid need feeding to progress its ever increasing need for time. what does the time a character trained a skill matter? You told me yesterday theres no difference in a bazaar character and a TSP one, there is.
is there?
what can a character built with skill packets do a character trained naturally and purchased on the bazaar do that the other can't?
oh right, nothing since they're the same. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4186
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:37:32 -
[3097] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Delegate wrote:Actually it does change a lot in new player experience. After this, a player starting the game will be unable to compete not only with older players but also with those of his peers that bought SP. So he will receive a very clear message: first pay for the sub, then grid/pay for the ISK and finally pay for the progress (or be left behind). There is a major difference from character bazaar here. A player with say 2-4m SP isn't going to engage in activities targeted by a 30m SP char bough off the bazaar. But he will meet players of similar age that performs better than him, because, for example, they bought 1.2m SP in core skills. After this change retention in new subs will drop. It could change new players' perception, which unfortunately is not good. For a moment of purely academic fun, I tried to pinpoint the difference between new player experience and how new player "perceive" the game. Academic, because we both know that the decision to keep playing comes from how you perceive the game. Aha... you're smart!
That's why I pointed out that everyone's priority should be to show newbs what EVE really is/can be, instead of leaving them to their false perceptions.
And anyone that understands EVE knows that SP doesn't really matter much, except as a prereq to fly some ships. But again, anyone that understands EVE knows that flying frigates can be the same or more fun than flying battleships.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
174
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:39:40 -
[3098] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Delegate wrote:Actually it does change a lot in new player experience. After this, a player starting the game will be unable to compete not only with older players but also with those of his peers that bought SP. So he will receive a very clear message: first pay for the sub, then grid/pay for the ISK and finally pay for the progress (or be left behind). There is a major difference from character bazaar here. A player with say 2-4m SP isn't going to engage in activities targeted by a 30m SP char bough off the bazaar. But he will meet players of similar age that performs better than him, because, for example, they bought 1.2m SP in core skills. After this change retention in new subs will drop. It could change new players' perception, which unfortunately is not good. For a moment of purely academic fun, I tried to pinpoint the difference between new player experience and how new player "perceive" the game. Academic, because we both know that the decision to keep playing comes from how you perceive the game.
Ah this is good. Dave can you get this? If not, reread it over and over again until you do. Then apologize for posting rubbish for the past 155+ pages in this thread. |
Jared Khanar
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:40:42 -
[3099] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Simply ty sp generation non-linear to character age if on a payed account - the older the char gets - the lower the generation - newer players catching up - problem solved Ehmmmmm..... that's already the case, go check the time vs. benefit of lvl V skills. EDIT: thats a different mechanic i believe - i refer to generall / overall sp generation speed not bound to a specific skill or its level Yeah, I got that. But the only point of SP is to get skills, and the only point of skills is to do stuff and do it better. The rapidly increasing lvl I-II-III-IV-V SP requirements compared to the linear benefits that each level gives already reach the practical result you're suggesting: newbros getting closer to vets faster, in terms of what they can fly and skill-related bonuses.
Yes it is - but look around - all the ones crying about not having enough sp to do anything ... !? Ignoring the fact that a 1-5 month old character can survive and succeed even solo in low, null, wh if the player knows what he / shes doing / how fun can be gained / depending on the self choosen goals ... |
Dave Stark
7593
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:41:27 -
[3100] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Delegate wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Delegate wrote:Actually it does change a lot in new player experience. After this, a player starting the game will be unable to compete not only with older players but also with those of his peers that bought SP. So he will receive a very clear message: first pay for the sub, then grid/pay for the ISK and finally pay for the progress (or be left behind). There is a major difference from character bazaar here. A player with say 2-4m SP isn't going to engage in activities targeted by a 30m SP char bough off the bazaar. But he will meet players of similar age that performs better than him, because, for example, they bought 1.2m SP in core skills. After this change retention in new subs will drop. It could change new players' perception, which unfortunately is not good. For a moment of purely academic fun, I tried to pinpoint the difference between new player experience and how new player "perceive" the game. Academic, because we both know that the decision to keep playing comes from how you perceive the game. Ah this is good. Dave can you get this? If not, reread it over and over again until you do. Then apologize for posting rubbish for the past 155+ pages in this thread.
how new players perceive the game is a complete irrelevance. it has nothing to do with the discussion.
we're talking about buying and selling SP not the NPE. |
|
Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:42:55 -
[3101] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark, you had my answer. And you still have not proven my argument wrong. Dave Stark wrote:[funfact; this isn't the only place for feedback. It is the place where this discussion is taking place. I wish you would back up your claim against my argument here, in a dialectiacal way. what claim? Sorry, but it is up to you to follow the thread. If you can not keep track of the discourse, my suggestion would be to wind down your posting activity. I wish for quality instead of quantity when taking place in an argument. i have been following the thread. if you're talking about the point you made pages ago about there being no limit, i suggest YOU follow the thread as i addressed it twice since you failed to read it the first time.
I am not doubting that you have that impression. I was merely pointing out to you, that you failed to grasp the essence of my argument. Your utterly wrong paraphrase of my post above only proves my point. And strenghtens my argument further.
Last time that GÇ£greed was goodGÇ¥, the information was leaked. This time it was posted.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
174
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:43:38 -
[3102] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:a short term cynical cash grab. it's no more of a cash grab than we already have. you either buy a character - or you buy SP packets. you won't do both. it's not a new cash grab you're just moving from character transfer revenue to skill extractor/aur revenue. Either you're a Dev alt or someone is offering you something to do this. Which is it? nobody has to offer me anything to state a fact. the joy of knowing some one's incorrect argument fell apart because of it is payment enough.
I see then that means you must be a Lawyer in RL and this is one of your "Bad Habits".
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Dave Stark
7593
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:44:08 -
[3103] - Quote
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:I am not doubt that you have that impression. I was merely pointing out to you, that you failed to grasp the essence of my argument. Your utterly wrong paraphrase of my post above only proves my point. And strenghtens my argument further.
your argument was proven wrong by the devblog, not me. |
Dave Stark
7593
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:45:09 -
[3104] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:I see then that means you must be a Lawyer in RL and this is one of your "Bad Habits".
yeah, why not.
i'm a lawyer. we'll go with it.
if we've stopped trying to guess my occupation, we can always get back to discussing the devblog? |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4186
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:45:33 -
[3105] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Simply ty sp generation non-linear to character age if on a payed account - the older the char gets - the lower the generation - newer players catching up - problem solved Ehmmmmm..... that's already the case, go check the time vs. benefit of lvl V skills. EDIT: thats a different mechanic i believe - i refer to generall / overall sp generation speed not bound to a specific skill or its level Yeah, I got that. But the only point of SP is to get skills, and the only point of skills is to do stuff and do it better. The rapidly increasing lvl I-II-III-IV-V SP requirements compared to the linear benefits that each level gives already reach the practical result you're suggesting: newbros getting closer to vets faster, in terms of what they can fly and skill-related bonuses. Yes it is - but look around - all the ones crying about not having enough sp to do anything ... !? Ignoring the fact that a 1-5 month old character can survive and succeed even solo in low, null, wh if the player knows what he / shes doing / how fun can be gained / depending on the self choosen goals ... How true... when I started I had a 80 kills to 120 losses ratio as a solo 1.5 month-old player in lowsec... was a blast!
Problem is, EVE is really a unique game. In almost every other game 'catching up' is indeed an issue... CCP is not doing a good enough job in making this difference clear to new players.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
103
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:53:25 -
[3106] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Delegate wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Delegate wrote:Actually it does change a lot in new player experience. After this, a player starting the game will be unable to compete not only with older players but also with those of his peers that bought SP. So he will receive a very clear message: first pay for the sub, then grid/pay for the ISK and finally pay for the progress (or be left behind). There is a major difference from character bazaar here. A player with say 2-4m SP isn't going to engage in activities targeted by a 30m SP char bough off the bazaar. But he will meet players of similar age that performs better than him, because, for example, they bought 1.2m SP in core skills. After this change retention in new subs will drop. It could change new players' perception, which unfortunately is not good. For a moment of purely academic fun, I tried to pinpoint the difference between new player experience and how new player "perceive" the game. Academic, because we both know that the decision to keep playing comes from how you perceive the game. Ah this is good. Dave can you get this? If not, reread it over and over again until you do. Then apologize for posting rubbish for the past 155+ pages in this thread. how new players perceive the game is a complete irrelevance. it has nothing to do with the discussion. we're talking about buying and selling SP not the NPE.
It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary.
|
Dave Stark
7593
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:55:17 -
[3107] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary.
the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea. |
Jared Khanar
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:56:47 -
[3108] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.
How can we already BUY and SELL SP (not characters - sp!) Even after all these years i-¦m here i haven-¦t heard of it - please teach me |
Robert Sawyer
The Vendunari End of Life
75
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:57:11 -
[3109] - Quote
Oh God, please no... No! No! NOOOOOO!!!!
On a serious side note, this whole sh*t is practically "SP for real life money". This will introduce a pay-to-win philosophy that will drive noobs and veterans alike away from the game as literally EVERYBODY will be able to do anything - you'll have new players buying PLEX and the SP to fly Dreadnoughts within days.
This will f*ck up sovereignty, PvE and PvP gameplay. DO NOT DO THIS CCP OR I SWEAR TO GOD THAT I WILL QUIT.
"And when, at last, the moment is yours, that agony will become your greatest triumph."
|
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:58:01 -
[3110] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Dave Stark wrote: the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.
How can we already BUY and SELL SP (not characters - sp!) Even after all these years i-¦m here i haven-¦t heard of it - please teach me
do i really have to wheel out the still unanswered "which system am i describing" question?
really? |
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4186
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:58:13 -
[3111] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary. Necessary for what?
Flying after 1 day ships that everybody else in 12 years of EVE flew after 6 months?
How can that be necessary, as opposed to optional, if countless players in EVE history survived perfectly and had fun without this new SP-trading thing?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
103
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:59:35 -
[3112] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary.
the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.
The quantity is what's new, as you like saying so often, it's in the dev blog, the granular nature of these skill packets will make it more normal for new guys to buy them where it would be less usual to buy an entire character. This comes with a downside as new guys who can't afford a sub and skill packets will see their immediate peers (as someone else already pointed out) advancing more quickly than them. Your argument is obtuse and fails to recognise the importance of how new players perceive things.
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4186
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:59:51 -
[3113] - Quote
Robert Sawyer wrote:Oh God, please no... No! No! NOOOOOO!!!!
On a serious side note, this whole sh*t is practically "SP for real life money". This will introduce a pay-to-win philosophy that will drive noobs and veterans alike away from the game as literally EVERYBODY will be able to do anything - you'll have new players buying PLEX and the SP to fly Dreadnoughts within days.
This will f*ck up sovereignty, PvE and PvP gameplay. DO NOT DO THIS CCP OR I SWEAR TO GOD THAT I WILL QUIT. I totally look forward to more noobs in blingy ships in Black Rise.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:59:55 -
[3114] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:I am not doubt that you have that impression. I was merely pointing out to you, that you failed to grasp the essence of my argument. Your utterly wrong paraphrase of my post above only proves my point. And strenghtens my argument further.
your argument was proven wrong by the devblog, not me.
Actually the devblog did not deal with my argument. You are mixing up cause and effect here. Exact thinking will be necessary if you want to take place in this discourse. I gave you a very specifc answer to your argument. If you wish to continue giving your subjective evaluations en masse here, avoiding to take up the actual argument you are of course free to do so.
Please be advised that my actual response to you is still uncontradicted in this case. You would not be the only one thinking along this line by the way. Most of the arguments by the dopers in this forum and others are substantially wrong. See my original post in this thread.
Last time that GÇ£greed was goodGÇ¥, the information was leaked. This time it was posted.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:00:11 -
[3115] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Dave Stark wrote: the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.
How can we already BUY and SELL SP (not characters - sp!) Even after all these years i-¦m here i haven-¦t heard of it - please teach me do i really have to wheel out the still unanswered "which system am i describing" question? really?
Yes because ive answered your question earlier to which i doubt you even read properly about bazaar Vs TSP and its vastly different |
Jared Khanar
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:00:48 -
[3116] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Dave Stark wrote: the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.
How can we already BUY and SELL SP (not characters - sp!) Even after all these years i-¦m here i haven-¦t heard of it - please teach me do i really have to wheel out the still unanswered "which system am i describing" question? really?
Yes, please be gracious to this stupid person i am most of the time :) |
Sgt Ocker
Military Bustards
727
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:01:06 -
[3117] - Quote
If we base a skill packet on 500k SP, an optimal remap and +4's = 1 every 8 days @ 300 mil cost + skill books (based on current plex prices). Then you have the additional cost of the GÇÿTransneural Skill PacketGÇÖ to enable you to sell those SP. 100 mil has been thrown about a lot as a good price for this product;
If the GÇÿTransneural Skill PacketGÇÖ is available on the market for 100 mil (dependent on how much CCP decide to sell them for and Aurum market prices), your looking at a break even price of around 400 mil for that 500k SP on the market. A little under 1 isk per SP and that is only until players decide they want to make more isk from their unwanted but now marketable SP, at which time the market prices will steadily rise. I would estimate a price of between 650 and 700 mil after about 3 months, starting at around 900 mil at release.
This is Eve, when it comes to making isk everyone wants optimal income, so players with SP they want to sell will want to make as much as possible from that sale. What ever CCP's intention, these skill packages are not going to be cheap.
-- - -- - -- - -- - -- As for the new player retention aspect and skill points added for established characters; Trial account starts out with 1 mil unallocated SP with another 2 mil added at the time it becomes a subscription Include links to EveMon, EveHq, etc in a startup information package. 3 GÇô 10 million skillpoints = 500,000 skillpoints added - Unlimited use 10 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 skillpoints added - Unlimited use to 50 mil SP 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 350,000 skillpoints added - Limited to 6 in a 12 month period > 80 million skillpoints = 250,000 skillpoints added - Limited to 4 in a 12 month period
You want to maintain the "prestige" of dedicating time, effort and money into a single highly skilled account - The skill packets need to offer an incentive to do so. 50k SP is less than 24hrs of training time - You are essentially telling players that once they reach 80,000,001 SP - We no longer care about you. (not every 100 mil SP account holder is space rich, some don't care about being rich but want the same opportunity as others to build their accounts)
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
|
Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:02:23 -
[3118] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Dave Stark wrote: the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.
How can we already BUY and SELL SP (not characters - sp!) Even after all these years i-¦m here i haven-¦t heard of it - please teach me do i really have to wheel out the still unanswered "which system am i describing" question? really?
Yes, you do. Otherwise you will not be taken for serious.
Last time that GÇ£greed was goodGÇ¥, the information was leaked. This time it was posted.
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
103
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:03:21 -
[3119] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Portmanteau wrote:It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary. Necessary for what? Flying after 1 day ships that everybody else in 12 years of EVE flew after 6 months? How can that be necessary, as opposed to optional, if countless players in EVE history survived perfectly and had fun without this new SP-trading thing?
Perception vs reality, surely you can't deny that despite it not being true, many new player and and plenty of older player in this very thread percieve a need for skillpoints. The fact it's not necessarily true doesn't matter, the fact it is a common perception is important and relevant to how this change will be received. Not everyone comes into this game fully versed on the nuances of EvE life. Some never learn it.
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Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:03:50 -
[3120] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary.
the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea. The quantity is what's new, as you like saying so often, it's in the dev blog, the granular nature of these skill packets will make it more normal for new guys to buy them where it would be less usual to buy an entire character. This comes with a downside as new guys who can't afford a sub and skill packets will see their immediate peers (as someone else already pointed out) advancing more quickly than them. Your argument is obtuse and fails to recognise the importance of how new players perceive things.
he's going to see some one buy SP packets, or a new character. if some one is going to pay to advance, they're going to pay to advance. pretending that'll only be the case because we're now selling SP a different way is laughable.
if he can't afford to pay to advance and his peers can, he will be left behind regardless of whether or not this system is added to the game.
i don't fail to recognise the importance, you fail to recognise it already exists and isn't new. |
|
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:04:39 -
[3121] - Quote
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Dave Stark wrote: the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.
How can we already BUY and SELL SP (not characters - sp!) Even after all these years i-¦m here i haven-¦t heard of it - please teach me do i really have to wheel out the still unanswered "which system am i describing" question? really? Yes, you do. Otherwise you will not be taken for serious.
ok then.
i start with a character with a set of skills i don't like. i end up with a character with a set of skills i do like.
which system am i describing, the old one or the new one? |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:04:44 -
[3122] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Sibyyl wrote: CSM folks who oppose the change, or anyone else who's against it.
Can you point me to a cogent argument not using subjective buzzwords like "pay to win" why this change is bad?
OK, I am still catching up, but you asked nicely. There have been a few constants in Eve. Real-time for skill training and industry was one of them. Oh you can buy the item/ship and jump ahead but someone played that real time price. Same goes for the Character Bazaar. You may not have paid the time but someone did, with plex or cold hard cash. So CCP is looking at replacing it and who loses? On the surface? Nobody. We strip older characters or farmed alts and use them to fuel the newer ones. No loss, just out with the old, supercharge the new. But that is the thing. 'Stripping the old' but do you honestly think most of the skill points will go to NEW players? That it will increase retention or just make more alts of the vets? Is an increase in subs really a good thing if a lot of them are brood mares existing only to have their brains harvested on a regular basis . . . full of +5's and never ever undocking into space? Will that give us more content? Or will it just be numbers on some ledger? Will new players coming in look and see the rich instaboosting themselves into better ships and leaving the normal subscription player behind in the dust? Would you play a game like that where it was obviously a game of haves and have-nots and you were probably one of the have-nots? Or would you pour your own money in and hope it was enough to keep up? I sit in Rookie Help Chat and listen to new players trying to figure out how to play for free. How to earn that 1.2 bill within 30 days. Those types, will they stay if I tell them that not only is it unlikely but that they will have to pay extra to be decent at the game. If they listen and do pay to be able to fly . . . say an incursion or a null rat ship . . . in the first week then they will be well on the road to playing for free, right? Since increased demand for those elusive PLEX will have no effect on the market. A lot of people are saying that this is fine since it will not effect them or maybe they can use it to rearrange their own skills, clean up that shameful mining V. I just hope they are very space rich or already used to paying subscriptions. I am in the latter category. I'll still be here but IF this goes through I will be a bit more bitter and somewhat disappointed with what the game has become. Pay to win? no, but what about Pay to keep up m +1. I hope/expect that CCP has already studied that, since it is a dangerous change to how subscription money works for the subscribers. Being given a equal chance to pay extra money and enjoy a better game experience is a mean of double-charging the customers, and that's quite a terrible thing for subscription services. RL wealthy and alliance backed noobs will take advantage of the system. The rest will see how, on top of all hardhisps involved in the NPE, they are being left behind since CCP considers that their subscription money is not enough...And then, how it is players' fault if their susbscription money isn't enough for CCP? CCP should adapt to their income, rather than blackmail the players about being left behind in a competitive game. Mike said that vets will take advantage of system by making perfect toons and striping unnecessary skills. You saying that noobs will benefit by accelerating with help from alliances or just soloing (I will do). CCP will make more money... So why are you still against while all groups in win-win position? |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4186
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:06:01 -
[3123] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:If we base a skill packet on 500k SP, an optimal remap and +4's = 1 every 8 days @ 300 mil cost + skill books (based on current plex prices). Then you have the additional cost of the GÇÿTransneural Skill PacketGÇÖ to enable you to sell those SP. 100 mil has been thrown about a lot as a good price for this product;
If the GÇÿTransneural Skill PacketGÇÖ is available on the market for 100 mil (dependent on how much CCP decide to sell them for and Aurum market prices), your looking at a break even price of around 400 mil for that 500k SP on the market. A little under 1 isk per SP and that is only until players decide they want to make more isk from their unwanted but now marketable SP, at which time the market prices will steadily rise. I would estimate a price of between 650 and 700 mil after about 3 months, starting at around 900 mil at release.
This is Eve, when it comes to making isk everyone wants optimal income, so players with SP they want to sell will want to make as much as possible from that sale. What ever CCP's intention, these skill packages are not going to be cheap. We already established a few pages ago that 500,000-SP skill packs will cost extractor price (your 100mil example) + 1/4 PLEX (300 mil today) = 400mil MAXIMUM.
But probably less than that, considering all the 'marketable' SP that's sitting in player accounts, plus the continuous SP-generation on active accounts.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:06:36 -
[3124] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Dave Stark wrote: the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.
How can we already BUY and SELL SP (not characters - sp!) Even after all these years i-¦m here i haven-¦t heard of it - please teach me do i really have to wheel out the still unanswered "which system am i describing" question? really? Yes, you do. Otherwise you will not be taken for serious. ok then. i start with a character with a set of skills i don't like. i end up with a character with a set of skills i do like. which system am i describing, the old one or the new one?
Why dont you answer the ******* question instead of dodging it, 4 times ive seen you do that now, brain not going as fast as the fingers would like or areyou being puppeted pal |
Jared Khanar
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:08:31 -
[3125] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: ok then.
i start with a character with a set of skills i don't like. i end up with a character with a set of skills i do like.
which system am i describing, the old one or the new one?
this is called question - not answer - as demanded - just to note this
how do you extract sps from a character and sell them or inject them into another one with the current features? |
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:08:33 -
[3126] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Why dont you answer the ******* question instead of dodging it
i haven't dodged anything.
we already know the purpose of the character bazaar is to buy and sell SP. now, you can either carry on pretending i'm avoiding a question that we answered multiple times already or you can start contributing to the discussion.
i don't really care which you do. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:10:23 -
[3127] - Quote
Full on dodged, this makes me think that certain things are waiting to be answered by someone other than you ....... your points are pretty mute now.
|
Jared Khanar
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:10:40 -
[3128] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Why dont you answer the ******* question instead of dodging it i haven't dodged anything. we already know the purpose of the character bazaar is to buy and sell SP. now, you can either carry on pretending i'm avoiding a question that we answered multiple times already or you can start contributing to the discussion. i don't really care which you do.
The purpose of the character bazaar is not to buy and sell sp - it-¦s purpose is to buy and sell characters - you cannot craft a second character using a bought one - this is just ... stupid - srry to say that - no personal offence intended - maybe it will be a good thing to recap or rethink your logic and it-¦s fundamentals |
Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:11:12 -
[3129] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Dave Stark wrote: the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.
How can we already BUY and SELL SP (not characters - sp!) Even after all these years i-¦m here i haven-¦t heard of it - please teach me do i really have to wheel out the still unanswered "which system am i describing" question? really? Yes, you do. Otherwise you will not be taken for serious. ok then. i start with a character with a set of skills i don't like. i end up with a character with a set of skills i do like. which system am i describing, the old one or the new one?
You are giving an assessment here. What characters you do like, or do not like, is irrelevant for the topic. Same goes for me by the way. It may change over time, just as their SP. Maybe you could define and describe the actual system you are referring to?
Last time that GÇ£greed was goodGÇ¥, the information was leaked. This time it was posted.
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
103
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:11:24 -
[3130] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary.
the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea. The quantity is what's new, as you like saying so often, it's in the dev blog, the granular nature of these skill packets will make it more normal for new guys to buy them where it would be less usual to buy an entire character. This comes with a downside as new guys who can't afford a sub and skill packets will see their immediate peers (as someone else already pointed out) advancing more quickly than them. Your argument is obtuse and fails to recognise the importance of how new players perceive things. he's going to see some one buy SP packets, or a new character. if some one is going to pay to advance, they're going to pay to advance. pretending that'll only be the case because we're now selling SP a different way is laughable. if he can't afford to pay to advance and his peers can, he will be left behind regardless of whether or not this system is added to the game. i don't fail to recognise the importance, you fail to recognise it already exists and isn't new.
You fail to recognise how items of smaller value sell more frequently and to a greater spectrum of incomes than items of larger value. If it's there's literally zero difference between the character bazaar and skill packets then one has to ask why are CCP wasting all this effort in changing it ? |
|
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:11:27 -
[3131] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Full on dodged, this makes me think that certain things are waiting to be answered by someone other than you ....... your points are pretty mute now.
fully dodged? not even remotely. it has been answered that many times it's not even funny.
that's why this thread is as long as it is, because the same questions have to be answered over and over because of people like you who require 30 replies to understand basic points that aren't even related to the topic. |
Sgt Ocker
Military Bustards
727
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:12:09 -
[3132] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary.
the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea. The quantity is what's new, as you like saying so often, it's in the dev blog, the granular nature of these skill packets will make it more normal for new guys to buy them where it would be less usual to buy an entire character. This comes with a downside as new guys who can't afford a sub and skill packets will see their immediate peers (as someone else already pointed out) advancing more quickly than them. Your argument is obtuse and fails to recognise the importance of how new players perceive things. he's going to see some one buy SP packets, or a new character. if some one is going to pay to advance, they're going to pay to advance. pretending that'll only be the case because we're now selling SP a different way is laughable. if he can't afford to pay to advance and his peers can, he will be left behind regardless of whether or not this system is added to the game. i don't fail to recognise the importance, you fail to recognise it already exists and isn't new. So what your saying is - Those with plenty of disposable income that can afford to buy enhancements for their play style are the only ones CCP are interested in keeping as customers?
Those who can't afford all the nice leaps in training or buying a char off the bazaar, get left behind and quit but that is ok because that is how it is now - This change is not going to help new player retention (the main goal) So why bother doing it at all?
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
174
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:12:26 -
[3133] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:I see then that means you must be a Lawyer in RL and this is one of your "Bad Habits".
yeah, why not. i'm a lawyer. we'll go with it. if we've stopped trying to guess my occupation, we can always get back to discussing the devblog?
Have it your way.
This is my opinion on how this should work if CCP insist on trading SP.
1st--Veterans can extract 5 skills per year using the Transneural Package. The skills that are extracted, extracts the entire skill regardless of the level. The extracted skills extracts up to 70% of the actual SP extracted which the player can relocate anywhere else on him/herself only (can't be sold to someone else cause it breaks eve realistic principles).
2nd--CCP introduce a new skill book called Transneural with Int/Mem attributes and a 4x training time multiplier. This would be a skill that I player needs to train to level 5 if they want to sell their own SP to other pilots. Once this skill is trained to level 5 it starts producing unallocated SP that can be uses however the player wishes with a -30% SP accumulation drawback.
With these features incorporated it limits the abuse of SP farming and most importantly it doesn't break Eve game principles. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4186
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:12:55 -
[3134] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Perception vs reality, surely you can't deny that despite it not being true, many new player and plenty of older player in this very thread perceive a need for skillpoints. The only possible outcome of a mechanic that converts SP to ISK and viceversa, is the devaluation of people's perception of SP.
As long as SP was non-marketable and non-acquirable except by waiting days, weeks, months, it's value was 'HUGE'.
Now it will be 0.8 ISK per SP, or less. No matter what, putting a price on something that was price-less, devalues it.
People will start thinking: do I need 2 mil SP this month, or should I buy and fit a faction battleship instead?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:13:20 -
[3135] - Quote
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Maybe you could define and describe the actual system you are referring to?
i just did.
Portmanteau wrote:If it's there's literally zero difference between the character bazaar and skill packets then one has to ask why are CCP wasting all this effort in changing it ?
this question has been answered so many times it's getting tragic now. the answer is even in the devblog.
go and read it. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:14:31 -
[3136] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Full on dodged, this makes me think that certain things are waiting to be answered by someone other than you ....... your points are pretty mute now.
fully dodged? not even remotely. it has been answered that many times it's not even funny. that's why this thread is as long as it is, because the same questions have to be answered over and over because of people like you who require 30 replies to understand basic points that aren't even related to the topic.
well why did you reply to the message i wrote and you replied about training a skill i was like WTF is that an answer too ???
If we strip away anything virtual from the game we have two constants in play, Time and Money
A legacy character is a snapshot in time, whether 12 years ago or 6 months ago even when unsubbed its frozen in time but in no way can it be manipulated. You can add time to it but it can never be reversed. There is no deconstruction of its timeline, It is a part of the ever evolving universe of eve from a conceptual point of origin.
Now comes a fresh approach, you now want to be able to reverse engineer the timeline. You now want to be able to create elite characters from fragments of time. The convergeance of multiple time streams to manipulate this creation at speed.
The legacy approach has a one off monetary payement, the Hybrid need feeding to progress its ever increasing need for time. |
Jared Khanar
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:15:28 -
[3137] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
i just did.
you are comparing apples with cars telling people they are the same - happy driving in your apple btw |
EnergizerBunny
EVE-INDY Alternate Allegiance
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:15:40 -
[3138] - Quote
if you give all characters in eve a FULL respec then we can discuss this bad idea.
scenario
you sitting a random null system, you see a neut reported in intel. you see his is 13 days old char. you think ahh scanny guy or cyno character.
5 mins later you get dropped by a 50 mill sp 13 day old character.. yay good fun. now you have changed a huge part of the intel system. see a characters age has always been used to asses what lvl the treath is. |
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:16:08 -
[3139] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
i just did.
you are comparing apples with cars telling people they are the same - happy driving in your apple btw
uh, i haven't mentioned apples or cars. |
Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:17:59 -
[3140] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Maybe you could define and describe the actual system you are referring to? i just did. Portmanteau wrote:If it's there's literally zero difference between the character bazaar and skill packets then one has to ask why are CCP wasting all this effort in changing it ? this question has been answered so many times it's getting tragic now. the answer is even in the devblog. go and read it.
You are doing neither yourself, nor the argument you stand for any kind of favour with these rhetorical antics. It is very clear, that you gave an assessment just before, no definition. It is subjective and irrelevant in this context. Anyone can read it a few posts up.
Last time that GÇ£greed was goodGÇ¥, the information was leaked. This time it was posted.
|
|
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:18:09 -
[3141] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Full on dodged, this makes me think that certain things are waiting to be answered by someone other than you ....... your points are pretty mute now.
fully dodged? not even remotely. it has been answered that many times it's not even funny. that's why this thread is as long as it is, because the same questions have to be answered over and over because of people like you who require 30 replies to understand basic points that aren't even related to the topic. well why did you reply to the message i wrote and you replied about training a skill i was like WTF is that an answer too ??? If we strip away anything virtual from the game we have two constants in play, Time and Money A legacy character is a snapshot in time, whether 12 years ago or 6 months ago even when unsubbed its frozen in time but in no way can it be manipulated. You can add time to it but it can never be reversed. There is no deconstruction of its timeline, It is a part of the ever evolving universe of eve from a conceptual point of origin. Now comes a fresh approach, you now want to be able to reverse engineer the timeline. You now want to be able to create elite characters from fragments of time. The convergeance of multiple time streams to manipulate this creation at speed. The legacy approach has a one off monetary payement, the Hybrid need feeding to progress its ever increasing need for time.
we've been through this. when a character trains a skill doesn't affect anything. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
104
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:19:08 -
[3142] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Perception vs reality, surely you can't deny that despite it not being true, many new player and plenty of older player in this very thread perceive a need for skillpoints. The only possible outcome of a mechanic that converts SP to ISK and viceversa, is the devaluation of people's perception of SP. As long as SP was non-marketable and non-acquirable except by waiting days, weeks, months, it's value was 'HUGE'. Now it will be 0.8 ISK per SP, or less. No matter what, putting a price on something that was price-less, devalues it. People will start thinking: do I need 2 mil SP this month, or should I buy and fit a faction battleship instead? You really can't imagine that breaking a hugely desirable commodity such as skillpoints into semi affordable chunks will make them seem like a must have for new guys ?
You know cocaine was never a massive issue in poor neighborhoods until it was re-marketed as cheaper crack rock
|
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:19:10 -
[3143] - Quote
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:You are doing neither yourself, nor the argument you stand for any kind of favour with these rhetorical antics. It is very clear, that you gave an assessment just before, no definition. It is subjective and irrelevant in this context. Anyone can read it a few posts up.
so you're not going to answer the question i asked, even after i was asked to ask it?
honestly - if you're not going to answer the question then it shouldn't have been asked for. |
Jared Khanar
22
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:19:25 -
[3144] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
i just did.
you are comparing apples with cars telling people they are the same - happy driving in your apple btw uh, i haven't mentioned apples or cars.
Well it was a pleasure to talk with you, my good troll - best wishes for you on your future way in eve. Sadly i have to stop reading your posts and responding to them now as i realise this is only resulting in a waste of time. Sadly i feel like you are going to push this further so a few pages ahead all these people reading in here and thinking about this must use their own brains to notice the illogical flaws and arguments :) but i have faith in them
o/
hmmm pizza :D |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:20:22 -
[3145] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Full on dodged, this makes me think that certain things are waiting to be answered by someone other than you ....... your points are pretty mute now.
fully dodged? not even remotely. it has been answered that many times it's not even funny. that's why this thread is as long as it is, because the same questions have to be answered over and over because of people like you who require 30 replies to understand basic points that aren't even related to the topic. well why did you reply to the message i wrote and you replied about training a skill i was like WTF is that an answer too ??? If we strip away anything virtual from the game we have two constants in play, Time and Money A legacy character is a snapshot in time, whether 12 years ago or 6 months ago even when unsubbed its frozen in time but in no way can it be manipulated. You can add time to it but it can never be reversed. There is no deconstruction of its timeline, It is a part of the ever evolving universe of eve from a conceptual point of origin. Now comes a fresh approach, you now want to be able to reverse engineer the timeline. You now want to be able to create elite characters from fragments of time. The convergeance of multiple time streams to manipulate this creation at speed. The legacy approach has a one off monetary payement, the Hybrid need feeding to progress its ever increasing need for time. we've been through this. when a character trains a skill doesn't affect anything.
How are they the same ??? |
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:22:11 -
[3146] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:
How are they the same ???
a character with mining V gets a 25% bonus to mining yield.
he doesn't magically get 30% if he trained it 4 years ago. he gets 25% too. that's how it's the same.
skills don't magically have different bonuses because they were trained at different points in time. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
104
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:23:24 -
[3147] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Maybe you could define and describe the actual system you are referring to? i just did. Portmanteau wrote:If it's there's literally zero difference between the character bazaar and skill packets then one has to ask why are CCP wasting all this effort in changing it ? this question has been answered so many times it's getting tragic now. the answer is even in the devblog. go and read it.
Cobblers, you are being incredibly obtuse here, the answer is indeed in the devblog and Rise goes to great lengths explaining the "improvements" that will be made on the character bazaar model.... those are the differences, you are just flailing about now trying to deny the obvious differences that everyone (including the developers) have spelled out.
Maybe you need a break, you've been at this thread for quite a while now.
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
104
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:25:21 -
[3148] - Quote
Dave please explain to me how I can buy SPs off the character Bazaar and inject them into this character. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:26:02 -
[3149] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Maybe you could define and describe the actual system you are referring to? i just did. Portmanteau wrote:If it's there's literally zero difference between the character bazaar and skill packets then one has to ask why are CCP wasting all this effort in changing it ? this question has been answered so many times it's getting tragic now. the answer is even in the devblog. go and read it. Cobblers, you are being incredibly obtuse here, the answer is indeed in the devblog and Rise goes to great lengths explaining the "improvements" that will be made on the character bazaar model.... those are the differences, you are just flailing about now trying to deny the obvious differences that everyone (including the developers) have spelled out. Maybe you need a break, you've been at this thread for quite a while now.
Its hilarious how hes flapping about skills now lol |
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:26:30 -
[3150] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Maybe you could define and describe the actual system you are referring to? i just did. Portmanteau wrote:If it's there's literally zero difference between the character bazaar and skill packets then one has to ask why are CCP wasting all this effort in changing it ? this question has been answered so many times it's getting tragic now. the answer is even in the devblog. go and read it. Cobblers, you are being incredibly obtuse here, the answer is indeed in the devblog and Rise goes to great lengths explaining the "improvements" that will be made on the character bazaar model.... those are the differences, you are just flailing about now trying to deny the obvious differences that everyone (including the developers) have spelled out. Maybe you need a break, you've been at this thread for quite a while now.
how am i being obtuse? you asked why they're doing it, we have gone through it many times, and each time has involved quoting the devblog since that's where the answer is. |
|
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:28:19 -
[3151] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Its hilarious how hes flapping about skills now lol
you ask about skills i'm going to talk about skills... how is that not obvious? |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4186
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:28:39 -
[3152] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:You really can't imagine that breaking a hugely desirable commodity such as skillpoints into semi affordable chunks will make them seem like a must have for new guys ? You know cocaine was never a massive issue in poor neighborhoods until it was re-marketed as cheaper crack rock
I could be wrong, but what I'm imagening right now is an EVE where buyable SP will actually make people obsess much less over SP...
If you're a smoke addict, you get worried if you don't have a spare pack around the house, even though you probably won't need all those cigarettes before you'll have a chance to buy more.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:29:50 -
[3153] - Quote
to be fair, i think this thread is done now. for the last like 150 pages there has been 0 discussion of the devblog as people have had to have basic and irrelevant concepts explaining to them. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
106
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:30:07 -
[3154] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Maybe you could define and describe the actual system you are referring to? i just did. Portmanteau wrote:If it's there's literally zero difference between the character bazaar and skill packets then one has to ask why are CCP wasting all this effort in changing it ? this question has been answered so many times it's getting tragic now. the answer is even in the devblog. go and read it. Cobblers, you are being incredibly obtuse here, the answer is indeed in the devblog and Rise goes to great lengths explaining the "improvements" that will be made on the character bazaar model.... those are the differences, you are just flailing about now trying to deny the obvious differences that everyone (including the developers) have spelled out. Maybe you need a break, you've been at this thread for quite a while now. how am i being obtuse? you asked why they're doing it, we have gone through it many times, and each time has involved quoting the devblog since that's where the answer is.
Can you sell me 500k sps from Dave Stark for me to inject into Portmanteau please ? Apparently that facility already exists. Thanking you in advance.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
174
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:31:01 -
[3155] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Maybe you could define and describe the actual system you are referring to? i just did. Portmanteau wrote:If it's there's literally zero difference between the character bazaar and skill packets then one has to ask why are CCP wasting all this effort in changing it ? this question has been answered so many times it's getting tragic now. the answer is even in the devblog. go and read it. Cobblers, you are being incredibly obtuse here, the answer is indeed in the devblog and Rise goes to great lengths explaining the "improvements" that will be made on the character bazaar model.... those are the differences, you are just flailing about now trying to deny the obvious differences that everyone (including the developers) have spelled out. Maybe you need a break, you've been at this thread for quite a while now.
Not only a break, he needs to stop posting, entirely! |
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:31:23 -
[3156] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:[Can you sell me 500k sps from Dave Stark for me to inject into Portmanteau please ? Apparently that facility already exists. Thanking you in advance.
yes. how much are you willing to pay?
Daniela Doran wrote:Not only a break, he needs to stop posting, entirely! indeed, my facts are getting in the way of your fabrications. |
Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:32:08 -
[3157] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:You are doing neither yourself, nor the argument you stand for any kind of favour with these rhetorical antics. It is very clear, that you gave an assessment just before, no definition. It is subjective and irrelevant in this context. Anyone can read it a few posts up.
so you're not going to answer the question i asked, even after i was asked to ask it? honestly - if you're not going to answer the question then it shouldn't have been asked for.
Again, you misunderstood.
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:You are giving an assessment here. What characters you do like, or do not like, is irrelevant for the topic. Same goes for me by the way. It may change over time, just as their SP. Maybe you could define and describe the actual system you are referring to?
It was about the quality of your question, not about me denying it should be answered. If you change the quality, it would move the discussion forward. It should definitely be answered then. I do give you that.
By the way, do you know the joke about the guy listening to the message about a wrong-way driver on the radio traffic service? He responded by GÇ£What do you mean, one of them? There are hundreds!GÇ¥
Seems to me you are getting quite a few messages about reading posts and quoting properly.
Last time that GÇ£greed was goodGÇ¥, the information was leaked. This time it was posted.
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
106
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:33:05 -
[3158] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Portmanteau wrote:You really can't imagine that breaking a hugely desirable commodity such as skillpoints into semi affordable chunks will make them seem like a must have for new guys ? You know cocaine was never a massive issue in poor neighborhoods until it was re-marketed as cheaper crack rock I could be wrong, but what I'm imagening right now is an EVE where buyable SP will actually make people obsess much less over SP... If you're a smoke addict, you get worried if you don't have a spare pack around the house, even though you probably won't need all those cigarettes before you'll have a chance to buy more. Oddly enough I think both POVs will occur. I agree that SPs as a commodity will seems less important to some, to me in fact. But also more SPs within easier reach of newer guys will have the opposite effect, like dangling a pipe in front of a crack ho. |
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:33:22 -
[3159] - Quote
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:You are doing neither yourself, nor the argument you stand for any kind of favour with these rhetorical antics. It is very clear, that you gave an assessment just before, no definition. It is subjective and irrelevant in this context. Anyone can read it a few posts up.
so you're not going to answer the question i asked, even after i was asked to ask it? honestly - if you're not going to answer the question then it shouldn't have been asked for. Again, you misunderstood. Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:You are giving an assessment here. What characters you do like, or do not like, is irrelevant for the topic. Same goes for me by the way. It may change over time, just as their SP. Maybe you could define and describe the actual system you are referring to? It was about the quality of your question, not about me denying it should be answered. If you change the quality, it would move the discussion forward. It should definitely be answered then. I do give you that. By the way, do you know the joke about the guy listening to the message about a wrong-way driver on the radio traffic service? He responded by GÇ£What do you mean, one of them? There are hundreds!GÇ¥ Seems to me you are getting quite a few messages about reading posts and quoting properly.
i don't need to change the quality. i described how a process worked and asked you to tell me which process i was talking about. if you don't know which one i'm talking about that's fine.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:34:20 -
[3160] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Its hilarious how hes flapping about skills now lol you ask about skills i'm going to talk about skills... how is that not obvious?
Not skills mate, you saying that a bazaar toon is the same as a TSP one and theyre not and you just dont see or want to admit theyre different after the 150 page fluff up |
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
106
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:34:59 -
[3161] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:[Can you sell me 500k sps from Dave Stark for me to inject into Portmanteau please ? Apparently that facility already exists. Thanking you in advance.
yes. how much are you willing to pay?
I think I'm done here.
|
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:35:07 -
[3162] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Its hilarious how hes flapping about skills now lol you ask about skills i'm going to talk about skills... how is that not obvious? Not skills mate, you saying that a bazaar toon is the same as a TSP one and theyre not and you just dont see or want to admit theyre different after the 150 page fluff up
considering you can create a TSP one however you want, it can very much be the same as a bazaar toon if you want it to. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
174
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:35:29 -
[3163] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:[Can you sell me 500k sps from Dave Stark for me to inject into Portmanteau please ? Apparently that facility already exists. Thanking you in advance.
yes. how much are you willing to pay? Daniela Doran wrote:Not only a break, he needs to stop posting, entirely! indeed, my facts are getting in the way of your fabrications.
Facts? More like delusions.
|
Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:36:54 -
[3164] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:You are doing neither yourself, nor the argument you stand for any kind of favour with these rhetorical antics. It is very clear, that you gave an assessment just before, no definition. It is subjective and irrelevant in this context. Anyone can read it a few posts up.
so you're not going to answer the question i asked, even after i was asked to ask it? honestly - if you're not going to answer the question then it shouldn't have been asked for. Again, you misunderstood. Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:You are giving an assessment here. What characters you do like, or do not like, is irrelevant for the topic. Same goes for me by the way. It may change over time, just as their SP. Maybe you could define and describe the actual system you are referring to? It was about the quality of your question, not about me denying it should be answered. If you change the quality, it would move the discussion forward. It should definitely be answered then. I do give you that. By the way, do you know the joke about the guy listening to the message about a wrong-way driver on the radio traffic service? He responded by GÇ£What do you mean, one of them? There are hundreds!GÇ¥ Seems to me you are getting quite a few messages about reading posts and quoting properly. i don't need to change the quality. i described how a process worked and asked you to tell me which process i was talking about. if you don't know which one i'm talking about that's fine.
You did not ask me. I really loled when i read this. Maybe you are referring to someone else?
Last time that GÇ£greed was goodGÇ¥, the information was leaked. This time it was posted.
|
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:38:03 -
[3165] - Quote
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:You did not ask me. I really loled when i read this. Maybe you are referring to someone else?
probably.
however i would have assumed you were replying to me because i was talking to you instead of just inserting yourself in to a conversation you weren't a part of. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:38:31 -
[3166] - Quote
Robert Sawyer wrote:This will introduce a pay-to-win philosophy that will drive noobs and veterans alike away from the game as literally EVERYBODY will be able to do anything - you'll have new players buying PLEX and the SP to fly Dreadnoughts within days. So, to fly a Dreadnought you need what, 30M SP at a minimum? Under the current proposal, you need to buy 72.5 skill packets to get you that much SP. Let's say the market price for a skill packet is about 0.166 PLEX (it will be less that 0.25 PLEX, and more than whatever the extractors costs). Then you need 12 PLEX to buy the skill packets to fly a dreadnought.
How many newbies will actually spend a year's supply of PLEX just to fly a dreadnought? And why do you think it matters if a few do? Chances are that a newbie in dreadnought will derp around for a few days before getting killed by somebody who knows what they are doing. However, that newbie gave CCP about 200 bucks to run their game, and dumped 12 PLEX on the market driving the price for PLEX down. Both are good for you, since the game will be around for longer and you will find it easier to play to pay. And hey, maybe you are the competent player who blows the clueless newbie in his dreadnought to bits, and you get a fun kill mail out of it as well. Meanwhile, the newbie will either drop out - but probably would have anyway, now however having financed your game for a bit - or will have gotten "big ships are better" out of their system. What's not to like? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:39:10 -
[3167] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Its hilarious how hes flapping about skills now lol you ask about skills i'm going to talk about skills... how is that not obvious? Not skills mate, you saying that a bazaar toon is the same as a TSP one and theyre not and you just dont see or want to admit theyre different after the 150 page fluff up considering you can create a TSP one however you want, it can very much be the same as a bazaar toon if you want it to.
why would you want a masterpiece with the flaws of a bazaar toon ??? |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4187
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:39:31 -
[3168] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Portmanteau wrote:You really can't imagine that breaking a hugely desirable commodity such as skillpoints into semi affordable chunks will make them seem like a must have for new guys ? You know cocaine was never a massive issue in poor neighborhoods until it was re-marketed as cheaper crack rock I could be wrong, but what I'm imagening right now is an EVE where buyable SP will actually make people obsess much less over SP... If you're a smoke addict, you get worried if you don't have a spare pack around the house, even though you probably won't need all those cigarettes before you'll have a chance to buy more. Oddly enough I think both POVs will occur. I agree that SPs as a commodity will seems less important to some, to me in fact. But also more SPs within easier reach of newer guys will have the opposite effect, like dangling a pipe in front of a crack ho. Indeed! But since they will be purchasable ONLY WITH ISK, this could also just motivate them to make ISK.
True, ISK can be purchased with PLEX, but that's nothing new.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:40:36 -
[3169] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:why would you want a masterpiece with the flaws of a bazaar toon ???
because a bazaar toon will be cheaper than creating one from scratch with TSPs. |
Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:41:09 -
[3170] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:You did not ask me. I really loled when i read this. Maybe you are referring to someone else? probably. however i would have assumed you were replying to me because i was talking to you instead of just inserting yourself in to a conversation you weren't a part of.
I am part of this conversation. Anyway, there are serious and grave concerns being voiced here. You will not be able to overcome them alone.
Last time that GÇ£greed was goodGÇ¥, the information was leaked. This time it was posted.
|
|
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:42:33 -
[3171] - Quote
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:You did not ask me. I really loled when i read this. Maybe you are referring to someone else? probably. however i would have assumed you were replying to me because i was talking to you instead of just inserting yourself in to a conversation you weren't a part of. I am part of this conversation. Anyway, there are serious and grave concerns being voiced here. You will not be able to overcome them alone.
i agree, there are. however people are very late to the party with a lot of them as most of the issues and concerns they're voicing have already come to pass from the bazaar. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:45:33 -
[3172] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:why would you want a masterpiece with the flaws of a bazaar toon ??? because a bazaar toon will be cheaper than creating one from scratch with TSPs.
Your favourite part back to the blog.
Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now |
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:47:00 -
[3173] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:why would you want a masterpiece with the flaws of a bazaar toon ??? because a bazaar toon will be cheaper than creating one from scratch with TSPs. Your favourite part back to the blog. Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now
and? |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4187
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:47:55 -
[3174] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Robert Sawyer wrote:This will introduce a pay-to-win philosophy that will drive noobs and veterans alike away from the game as literally EVERYBODY will be able to do anything - you'll have new players buying PLEX and the SP to fly Dreadnoughts within days. So, to fly a Dreadnought you need what, 30M SP at a minimum? Under the current proposal, you need to buy 72.5 skill packets to get you that much SP. Let's say the market price for a skill packet is about 0.166 PLEX (it will be less that 0.25 PLEX, and more than whatever the extractors costs). Then you need 12 PLEX to buy the skill packets to fly a dreadnought. How many newbies will actually spend a year's supply of PLEX just to fly a dreadnought? And why do you think it matters if a few do? Chances are that a newbie in dreadnought will derp around for a few days before getting killed by somebody who knows what they are doing. However, that newbie gave CCP about 200 bucks to run their game, and dumped 12 PLEX on the market driving the price for PLEX down. Both are good for you, since the game will be around for longer and you will find it easier to play to pay. And hey, maybe you are the competent player who blows the clueless newbie in his dreadnought to bits, and you get a fun kill mail out of it as well. Meanwhile, the newbie will either drop out - but probably would have anyway, now however having financed your game for a bit - or will have gotten "big ships are better" out of their system. What's not to like? Great analysis, as always!
Got me thinking: if CCP keeps the extractor PLEX-equivalent price (in AUR) lower than the expected PLEX-equivalent price of the 500,000 SP, this whole thing will probably INCREASE PLEX supply, which is pretty cool!
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:50:26 -
[3175] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:why would you want a masterpiece with the flaws of a bazaar toon ??? because a bazaar toon will be cheaper than creating one from scratch with TSPs. Your favourite part back to the blog. Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now and?
This is being done pure and simply for profit, whether you like it or not and like i said before you really think it will stay if they can make yet another whole new revenue stream from another added F2P feature of microtransactions that hit at a core principal of the game they said would never alter. |
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:52:58 -
[3176] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:why would you want a masterpiece with the flaws of a bazaar toon ??? because a bazaar toon will be cheaper than creating one from scratch with TSPs. Your favourite part back to the blog. Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now and? This is being done pure and simply for profit, whether you like it or not and like i said before you really think it will stay if they can make yet another whole new revenue stream from another added F2P feature of microtransactions that hit at a core principal of the game they said would never alter.
buying and selling SP has always been done for profit by CCP. character transfers aren't free. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4187
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:54:28 -
[3177] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:This is being done pure and simply for profit, whether you like it or not and like i said before you really think it will stay if they can make yet another whole new revenue stream from another added F2P feature of microtransactions that hit at a core principal of the game they said would never alter. Partly yes, but not as much as you think.
On one hand, if you want moar SP nao, yes you'll pay CCP. For the extractor, possibly also PLEX for the ISK (which btw could increase PLEX supply, not half bad methinks).
On the other hand, if you don't need SP on an alt right now, you may decide to unsub it...
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:56:36 -
[3178] - Quote
Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now[/quote]
and?[/quote]
This is being done pure and simply for profit, whether you like it or not and like i said before you really think it will stay if they can make yet another whole new revenue stream from another added F2P feature of microtransactions that hit at a core principal of the game they said would never alter.[/quote]
buying and selling SP has always been done for profit by CCP. character transfers aren't free.[/quote]
one of your fanboys posted earlier on what they make from character transfers which are not the selling of skillpoints, now break it down to what theyre going be making on 500,000 packets if they actually released all the info instead of drips i bet its going to be a hell of alot more before the tides turn
|
Public Relation
Outer Space Relic Seekers
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:58:19 -
[3179] - Quote
Oh no with this new feature, people will Pay to win...
Ok, lets put this in perspective:
I am rich beyond belief, and hear about a game called EvE with huge interstellar war etc. Ok so i decide to play the game:
- I buy the game, set-up sub. - I buy a few hundred plex, i put them on the market low enough for a fast sell. - When those plex are sold i have a few hundred billion isk in my wallet - After some research on the web i buy a few high skilled Titan/carrier/dread character, and a high skilled pvp character.
Then i convo the leader of one of the best alliance in the game, i explain that i am rich and propose to inject a few billion isk every month in his alliance if he get me a decent place in his organisation, he agree and i then get to there staging system, buy all the cap/subcap ships i need with the best mod possible.
So in less then 48 hour i have "pay to win EvE". I did this with the feature already available in the game...
And suddenly people get upset because "now" someone can "pay to win" with the skill trading feature?????????
Hilarious. |
Dave stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:58:19 -
[3180] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:one of your fanboys posted earlier on what they make from character transfers which are not the selling of skillpoints, now break it down to what theyre going be making on 500,000 packets if they actually released all the info instead of drips i bet its going to be a hell of alot more before the tides turn
we can't break it down. we don't know how much extractors will cost. |
|
Jared Khanar
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:00:27 -
[3181] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Got me thinking: if CCP keeps the extractor PLEX-equivalent price (in AUR) lower than the expected PLEX-equivalent price of the 500,000 SP, this whole thing will probably INCREASE PLEX supply, which is pretty cool!
this only applies if the one-¦s milking their characters for sellable sp do this via buying aurum instead of buying plex from the market to do so. if not because they have the needed isk to supply this - and because spending isk can be valued less than spending rl currency - only plex are incoming from players without isk, to get it and buy sp packages. now pretend wich group consumes / injects more plex. Also don-¦t forget speculators. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
115
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:04:55 -
[3182] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:This is being done pure and simply for profit, whether you like it or not and like i said before you really think it will stay if they can make yet another whole new revenue stream from another added F2P feature of microtransactions that hit at a core principal of the game they said would never alter.
My personal take on this proposal is that CCP find itself increasingly out of options to maintain the revenue stream. I personally would prefer paying higher sub price, than witnessing SP market go online.
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9305
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:05:46 -
[3183] - Quote
I hope CCP don't introduce this new feature around the 10th of next month.
Then the (possibly) massive drop off in players online due to Fallout 4 will instead be used as a justification for the I-told-you-so people to party in the streets because they were so right. It takes a special kind of stupid to joyfully dance at the prospect of being right that the game they love is dying. But there you go. They will dance and they will be wrong.
But what will they say 100 hours of FO4 later when all those people start to get the EVE shakes and return to the game? How will they then explain why the numbers are climbing? They'll most certainly not have quit as many are threatening to do, so they'll be around to see the rebound.
Should be interesting to see the backpedaling then. Or the whole issue may be moot as they've all moved on to the next big thing that is causing that unstable sky to fall on them.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:07:41 -
[3184] - Quote
Public Relation wrote:Oh no with this new feature, people will Pay to win...
Ok, lets put this in perspective:
I am rich beyond belief, and hear about a game called EvE with huge interstellar war etc. Ok so i decide to play the game:
- I buy the game, set-up sub. - I buy a few hundred plex, i put them on the market low enough for a fast sell. - When those plex are sold i have a few hundred billion isk in my wallet - After some research on the web i buy a few high skilled Titan/carrier/dread character, and a high skilled pvp character.
Then i convo the leader of one of the best alliance in the game, i explain that i am rich and propose to inject a few billion isk every month in his alliance if he get me a decent place in his organisation, he agree and i then get to there staging system, buy all the cap/subcap ships i need with the best mod possible.
So in less then 48 hour i have "pay to win EvE". I did this with the feature already available in the game...
And suddenly people get upset because "now" someone can "pay to win" with the skill trading feature?????????
Hilarious. Rich man already have this opportunity without SP trading system. He just need to buy toon from Bazaar or ask for it from sponsored alliance. |
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:08:18 -
[3185] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:This is being done pure and simply for profit, whether you like it or not and like i said before you really think it will stay if they can make yet another whole new revenue stream from another added F2P feature of microtransactions that hit at a core principal of the game they said would never alter. My personal take on this proposal is that CCP find itself increasingly out of options to maintain the revenue stream. I personally would prefer paying higher sub price, than witnessing this SP market go online.
personally, i would rather see the continuation and improvement of buying/selling of SP than a hike in sub prices.
not to mention the increased cost in subscription fees, and subsequently plex prices, would allow illicit RMTers back in to the market who were previously priced out.
|
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:09:57 -
[3186] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:I hope CCP don't introduce this new feature around the 10th of next month. Then the (possibly) massive drop off in players online due to Fallout 4 will instead be used as a justification for the I-told-you-so people to party in the streets because they were so right. It takes a special kind of stupid to joyfully dance at the prospect of being right that the game they love is dying. But there you go. They will dance and they will be wrong. But what will they say 100 hours of FO4 later when all those people start to get the EVE shakes and return to the game? How will they then explain why the numbers are climbing? They'll most certainly not have quit as many are threatening to do, so they'll be around to see the rebound. Should be interesting to see the backpedaling then. Or the whole issue may be moot as they've all moved on to the next big thing that is causing that unstable sky to fall on them. Mr Epeen
**** fallout 4. starwars battlefront, dude. |
Jared Khanar
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:10:46 -
[3187] - Quote
Delegate wrote:
My personal take on this proposal is that CCP find itself increasingly out of options to maintain the revenue stream. I personally would prefer paying higher sub price, than witnessing this SP market go online.
WOD, Dust, Gunjack, Valkyrie - who do you think pays for these developments? If you extract massive amounts of capital from the project that earns you this - what is going to happen if not enough is left to satisfy these customers or if you need more because you wastet these investments, canceling projects? Do a simple math what ccp has to pay for eve fanfest or vegas and think about what could have happend to this game if all this money and devtime had been used from the beginning to primarily develop eve instead?
Still wating on them to keep their promises from 2011: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ0k0ioROUo
That-¦s a timeframe others develop complete and complex AAA games |
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1273
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:17:09 -
[3188] - Quote
I have removed a lengthy back and forth between two players. Please use EVE mail if you want to make things personal and spew nonsense in no relation to the subject at hand.
Quote:4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Charlie Nonoke
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
71
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:36:53 -
[3189] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Robert Sawyer wrote:This will introduce a pay-to-win philosophy that will drive noobs and veterans alike away from the game as literally EVERYBODY will be able to do anything - you'll have new players buying PLEX and the SP to fly Dreadnoughts within days. So, to fly a Dreadnought you need what, 30M SP at a minimum? Under the current proposal, you need to buy 72.5 skill packets to get you that much SP. Let's say the market price for a skill packet is about 0.166 PLEX (it will be less that 0.25 PLEX, and more than whatever the extractors costs). Then you need 12 PLEX to buy the skill packets to fly a dreadnought. How many newbies will actually spend a year's supply of PLEX just to fly a dreadnought? And why do you think it matters if a few do? Chances are that a newbie in dreadnought will derp around for a few days before getting killed by somebody who knows what they are doing. However, that newbie gave CCP about 200 bucks to run their game, and dumped 12 PLEX on the market driving the price for PLEX down. Both are good for you, since the game will be around for longer and you will find it easier to play to pay. And hey, maybe you are the competent player who blows the clueless newbie in his dreadnought to bits, and you get a fun kill mail out of it as well. Meanwhile, the newbie will either drop out - but probably would have anyway, now however having financed your game for a bit - or will have gotten "big ships are better" out of their system. What's not to like? By your calculations, there's also another advantage, if a newbie has 12 PLEX to spend, he would, and I know I would, rather burn up the 12 PLEX initially for a 30m injection, rather than spend 12 PLEX for a year's subscription, and only passive train about 23m SP, assuming 2700SP\hr, which also is impossible to achieve because of remaps and Cybernetics V.
Sure he misses the 12 months playtime, but he gets more SP, and gets instant delivery. All while only spending 12 PLEX.
BTW, I also hate the idea. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:39:45 -
[3190] - Quote
Charlie Nonoke wrote: BTW, I also hate the idea.
Why? |
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9305
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:44:31 -
[3191] - Quote
Charlie Nonoke wrote: By your calculations, there's also another advantage, if a newbie has 12 PLEX to spend, he would, and I know I would, rather burn up the 12 PLEX initially for a 30m injection, rather than spend 12 PLEX for a year's subscription, and only passive train about 23m SP, assuming 2700SP\hr, which also is impossible to achieve because of remaps and Cybernetics V.
Sure he misses the 12 months playtime, but he gets more SP, and gets instant delivery. All while only spending 12 PLEX.
BTW, I also hate the idea.
As opposed to now where that players buys a 30+M SP character on the bazaar with PLEX left over to add gametime or buy ships?
And if you hate the idea of buying SP, I'm sure I'll find posts in your history where you are railing at the idea that characters can be purchased already.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Charlie Nonoke
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
71
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:45:25 -
[3192] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Charlie Nonoke wrote: BTW, I also hate the idea.
Why? I mean I hate the whole extracting SP and making it sellable.
As to why, my sentiments belong with 98% of the other voices. |
Dave Stark
7594
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:46:30 -
[3193] - Quote
Charlie Nonoke wrote:General Lootit wrote:Charlie Nonoke wrote: BTW, I also hate the idea.
Why? I mean I hate the whole extracting SP and making it sellable. As to why, my sentiments belong with 98% of the other voices.
so, you don't actually have a reason then.
i'd have thought after like 3 days knees would have stopped jerking. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:50:17 -
[3194] - Quote
Charlie Nonoke wrote:General Lootit wrote:Charlie Nonoke wrote: BTW, I also hate the idea.
Why? I mean I hate the whole extracting SP and making it sellable. As to why, my sentiments belong with 98% of the other voices. It's not answer to my question. |
Charlie Nonoke
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
71
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:50:39 -
[3195] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Charlie Nonoke wrote: By your calculations, there's also another advantage, if a newbie has 12 PLEX to spend, he would, and I know I would, rather burn up the 12 PLEX initially for a 30m injection, rather than spend 12 PLEX for a year's subscription, and only passive train about 23m SP, assuming 2700SP\hr, which also is impossible to achieve because of remaps and Cybernetics V.
Sure he misses the 12 months playtime, but he gets more SP, and gets instant delivery. All while only spending 12 PLEX.
BTW, I also hate the idea.
As opposed to now where that players buys a 30+M SP character on the bazaar with PLEX left over to add gametime or buy ships? And if you hate the idea of buying SP, I'm sure I'll find posts in your history where you are railing at the idea that characters can be purchased already. Mr Epeen I'm not against the character bazaar and its function, because skills were already tailored by the original capsuleer and decisions were made by him. The new buyer has to accept those decisions, like neg stat, corp thief, crap name.
This idea negates all that history and is essentially paying for SP.
Character Bazaar is also paying for SP, but it comes at the price that it's not 1st hand. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:51:52 -
[3196] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Charlie Nonoke wrote:General Lootit wrote:Charlie Nonoke wrote: BTW, I also hate the idea.
Why? I mean I hate the whole extracting SP and making it sellable. As to why, my sentiments belong with 98% of the other voices. so, you don't actually have a reason then. i'd have thought after like 3 days knees would have stopped jerking.
There is a big reason why and folks with principals try to stick with them, you tread on a turd you scrape it off and continue on your journey. |
Lori Tempa
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:55:50 -
[3197] - Quote
Negative status is fixed with tags now. Corp thief means nothing after you've bought a character, crap name is something that a lot of people have Charlie.
The character bazaar is paying for sp no matter how you try to spin it. This method is better than the character bazaar because of the reasons you listed. I don't see why these disadvatages are needed when someone is trying to get something they need in terms of a trained pilot.
|
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1401
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:59:27 -
[3198] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Cearain wrote:
Every year the game has existed the new player has had to compete at a larger and larger skill point disadvantage. It is only right that ccp would give new players more options to deal with this disadvantage.
This I agree with 100%, however paying more RL cash on top of a subscription to get enough SPs to compete is going to leave a nasty taste for a lot of new guys, that's how many will perceive this. Far better to remove learning implants and max attributes and scale down training time modifiers on core skills to compensate the ever growing distance towards end game stuffs. If CCP want to bring new guys into the game quicker they'd do this, if they just want a desperate cash grab, they skim brokerage fees for our unwanted SPs...
This will presumably allow new players to spend much less money (compared to the character bazzar) to get the skills they really want.
Removing learning implants is another way to go but it doesn't address the issue as directly (implants don't really help that much) and I think it would crush the already teetering lp stores. There are some other issues there.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9307
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:59:36 -
[3199] - Quote
Charlie Nonoke wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Charlie Nonoke wrote: By your calculations, there's also another advantage, if a newbie has 12 PLEX to spend, he would, and I know I would, rather burn up the 12 PLEX initially for a 30m injection, rather than spend 12 PLEX for a year's subscription, and only passive train about 23m SP, assuming 2700SP\hr, which also is impossible to achieve because of remaps and Cybernetics V.
Sure he misses the 12 months playtime, but he gets more SP, and gets instant delivery. All while only spending 12 PLEX.
BTW, I also hate the idea.
As opposed to now where that players buys a 30+M SP character on the bazaar with PLEX left over to add gametime or buy ships? And if you hate the idea of buying SP, I'm sure I'll find posts in your history where you are railing at the idea that characters can be purchased already. Mr Epeen I'm not against the character bazaar and its function, because skills were already tailored by the original capsuleer and decisions were made by him. The new buyer has to accept those decisions, like neg stat, corp thief, crap name. This idea negates all that history and is essentially paying for SP. Character Bazaar is also paying for SP, but it comes at the price that it's not 1st hand. The CB is not what you think it is.
There are people with 60-80 PO2 accts (I never go over twenty because I'm a lightweight) specifically training pilots for sale. Focused with no history, no reputation and in any flavor of skill combinations you like. No one will ever know it's a purchased character without actually digging in to the posting history.
Sure there is crap for sale. But it mostly stays for sale as there are much better options.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Public Relation
Outer Space Relic Seekers
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:06:42 -
[3200] - Quote
Charlie Nonoke wrote: I'm not against the character bazaar and its function, because skills were already tailored by the original capsuleer and decisions were made by him. The new buyer has to accept those decisions, like neg stat, corp thief, crap name.
This idea negates all that history and is essentially paying for SP.
Character Bazaar is also paying for SP, but it comes at the price that it's not 1st hand.
This change nothing in the end. I have bought character with a name i hated and history that could have been detrimental. Still i was able to fly with any corp and with the ship i wanted/needed in 1 day.
Worse then skill point trading are Plex. For someone with enough money, Plex = instant unlimited amount of isk, if you are bright enough you will understand the full consequence for any parties in EvE to have access to unlimited ressources with absolutly no risk. |
|
Charlie Nonoke
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
71
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:09:23 -
[3201] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Charlie Nonoke wrote:General Lootit wrote:Charlie Nonoke wrote: BTW, I also hate the idea.
Why? I mean I hate the whole extracting SP and making it sellable. As to why, my sentiments belong with 98% of the other voices. so, you don't actually have a reason then. i'd have thought after like 3 days knees would have stopped jerking. The biggest reason is, you get to self tailor yourself in the purest form in an instant, at no price other than PLEX. Start a newbie, persevere to 5m, start injecting. Be perfectly combat capable at Mastery V in an hour.
Whereas, Bazaar characters are never the way you want them to, and when presented with one which satisfies your requirement, comes with baggage, 20 corp history listings, useless skills which I had no intention of using, like leadership and Wing command V, when I just wanna small gang in cruisers. That's the price we pay, imperfections, caveats for other desirables. And we made the choice to go on.
I was always impressed by the idea that you should think hard of the decisions you make, because it branches out to undesirable consequences. Like, training Mining to IV because as a noob you wanted to get that extra yield to make money.
Now, this idea makes it so those consequences disappear. Remember years ago when you made a bad decision on your toon which you hated? Poof, gone.
I can start a character and make him pure, without the baggage. Not only that, I can make him pure in an instant. Not only that, I also circumvented one of the biggest assets we all possessed, and that's training time, perseverance, patience and sticking to a plan. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:12:56 -
[3202] - Quote
Public Relation wrote: Worse then skill point trading are Plex. For someone with enough money, Plex = instant unlimited amount of isk, if you are bright enough you will understand the full consequence for any parties in EvE to have access to unlimited ressources with absolutly no risk.
Only because someone wont or can't earn isk we can have free sub. When someone dumping PLEXes into the game market price droping which also beneficial for players. |
Dave Stark
7596
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:13:28 -
[3203] - Quote
Charlie Nonoke wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Charlie Nonoke wrote:General Lootit wrote:Charlie Nonoke wrote: BTW, I also hate the idea.
Why? I mean I hate the whole extracting SP and making it sellable. As to why, my sentiments belong with 98% of the other voices. so, you don't actually have a reason then. i'd have thought after like 3 days knees would have stopped jerking. The biggest reason is, you get to self tailor yourself in the purest form in an instant, at no price other than PLEX. Start a newbie, persevere to 5m, start injecting. Be perfectly combat capable at Mastery V in an hour. Whereas, Bazaar characters are never the way you want them to, and when presented with one which satisfies your requirement, comes with baggage, 20 corp history listings, useless skills which I had no intention of using, like leadership and Wing command V, when I just wanna small gang in cruisers. That's the price we pay, imperfections, caveats for other desirables. And we made the choice to go on. I was always impressed by the idea that you should think hard of the decisions you make, because it branches out to undesirable consequences. Like, training Mining to IV because as a noob you wanted to get that extra yield to make money. Now, this idea makes it so those consequences disappear. Remember years ago when you made a bad decision on your toon which you hated? Poof, gone. I can start a character and make him pure, without the baggage. Not only that, I can make him pure in an instant.
so, you're saying you hate the system because you can create a character that can do less, that costs more? so you think we should remove the diminishing returns, or make character transfers more expensive, or what?
as pointed out. not every character on the bazzar has baggage, many of them are trained specifically to be sold and thus have no corp history or reputation as they've never undocked. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:17:02 -
[3204] - Quote
Charlie Nonoke wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Charlie Nonoke wrote:General Lootit wrote:Charlie Nonoke wrote: BTW, I also hate the idea.
Why? I mean I hate the whole extracting SP and making it sellable. As to why, my sentiments belong with 98% of the other voices. so, you don't actually have a reason then. i'd have thought after like 3 days knees would have stopped jerking. The biggest reason is, you get to self tailor yourself in the purest form in an instant, at no price other than PLEX. Start a newbie, persevere to 5m, start injecting. Be perfectly combat capable at Mastery V in an hour. Whereas, Bazaar characters are never the way you want them to, and when presented with one which satisfies your requirement, comes with baggage, 20 corp history listings, useless skills which I had no intention of using, like leadership and Wing command V, when I just wanna small gang in cruisers. That's the price we pay, imperfections, caveats for other desirables. And we made the choice to go on. I was always impressed by the idea that you should think hard of the decisions you make, because it branches out to undesirable consequences. Like, training Mining to IV because as a noob you wanted to get that extra yield to make money. Now, this idea makes it so those consequences disappear. Remember years ago when you made a bad decision on your toon which you hated? Poof, gone. I can start a character and make him pure, without the baggage. Not only that, I can make him pure in an instant. Not only that, I also circumvented one of the biggest assets we all possessed, and that's training time, perseverance, patience and sticking to a plan.
You dont need to be at 5 mill sp to start using them just create the toon and go, the 5 mill cap is for extracting from a toon |
Public Relation
Outer Space Relic Seekers
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:19:43 -
[3205] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Public Relation wrote: Worse then skill point trading are Plex. For someone with enough money, Plex = instant unlimited amount of isk, if you are bright enough you will understand the full consequence for any parties in EvE to have access to unlimited ressources with absolutly no risk.
Only because someone wont or can't earn isk we can have free sub. When someone dumping PLEXes into the game market price droping which also beneficial for players.
I am not debating the right or wrong of plex, i am just stating that EvE have already been prone to the so call "pay to win" syndrome with plex and charater bazar.
Skill point trading is nothing worse or better, it wont change nothing in the end regarding "pay to win"... But like the dev have stated it will help new player retention and thats the great thing about it.
Also my opinion on the subject of "pay to win" is simple, isk or skill point wont make you win fight, so no there is no "pay to win" only "pay to get what you want faster". |
Unkind Omen
Voyagers Inc.
42
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:22:49 -
[3206] - Quote
The moment this innovation hits the TQ I will have no more reasons to pay CCP subscription continuously. Instead I will stop by for a couple of days once a year, buy a handful of T1 cruisers to go and burn them to some random gate camps. And IF there would be ever anything (content wise) worth playing I will loose nothing as I can always buy those boosters if not for main character then for a specialist alt to compensate for that time I was "absent". However, from where we are standing now I don't believe that would ever happen. Good job CCP. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:23:22 -
[3207] - Quote
Public Relation wrote:General Lootit wrote:Public Relation wrote: Worse then skill point trading are Plex. For someone with enough money, Plex = instant unlimited amount of isk, if you are bright enough you will understand the full consequence for any parties in EvE to have access to unlimited ressources with absolutly no risk.
Only because someone wont or can't earn isk we can have free sub. When someone dumping PLEXes into the game market price droping which also beneficial for players. I am not debating the right or wrong of plex, i am just stating that EvE have already been prone to the so call "pay to win" syndrome with plex and charater bazar. Skill point trading is nothing worse or better, it wont change nothing in the end regarding "pay to win"... But like the dev have stated it will help new player retention and thats the great thing about it. Also my opinion on the subject of "pay to win" is simple, isk or skill point wont make you win fight, so no there is no "pay to win" only "pay to get what you want faster".
Is not the idea of getting to the end point faster classed as the "Win" ergo you have just explained pay to win at its finest. |
Pine Marten
Eight Legged Freaky Starfighters
96
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:28:19 -
[3208] - Quote
At first I was against this. But after re-reading it a couple times, it seems to me its not going far enugh. This will only cater the New, the alt or a returning low skillpoint character. I belive this will steal some of the Learning curve from the newer pilots as well. (This might just be what your after) But Personally I want you to take another course. Let us instead pay 2 plex for resculpting our skillpoints. There will always be a trend in what to fly and what you personally like to do. Why should the veterans that have trained for 5years+ not be able to fly as skiilled as they are. (in terms of sp)
I strongly belive that training for months to fly something the way it should, only to find out when you have finished the training, that you don't enjoy it as you thougth it will, looses more New players than anything else in eve. Give the game a reset skills button , payable by plex, and you migth take the edge off some of the agony that many feels before they quit the game.
Enugh ranting from me. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:30:22 -
[3209] - Quote
Public Relation wrote: Also my opinion on the subject of "pay to win" is simple, isk or skill point wont make you win fight, so no there is no "pay to win" only "pay to get what you want faster".
See. There is no reason to afraid payers so much =) |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
4697
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:34:56 -
[3210] - Quote
No Jita riots?
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
417
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:47:24 -
[3211] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:No Jita riots? Why? Players won't unite, they are divided with the proposal. Can anybody explain to me why Rise is taking care of such change? He's known pvper, it's obvious he will be lobbing for such change.
Quote: (...)We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. (...)
Quote:(...)or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly ArmageddonGÇÖs than Stilettos, this feature has you covered.(...) we can have both here. I don't support character baazar. It's just a way to
Quote:discourage people from participating in illegal account sales on eBay and other sites With current proposal I would just stop at 49999999 and respec when needed.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Public Relation
Outer Space Relic Seekers
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:53:31 -
[3212] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: Is not the idea of getting to the end point faster classed as the "Win" ergo you have just explained pay to win at its finest.
Lol, eveything is relative, in EvE ressources can be lost, so buying stuff with real cash mean you lost that money. There is an element of risk here in the great sheme of thing.
Like it or not, if there was no plex or character bazzar, people would still "pay to win" with illegal RMT, and these have negative consequence on the game because poeple can easlily get scam and lose everything with not support from CCP.
Basicly what we have now is the lesser of two evil scenario. And i believe CCP is handling it correctly. |
BirdStrike
State War Academy Caldari State
72
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:59:17 -
[3213] - Quote
Public Relation wrote:General Lootit wrote:Public Relation wrote: Worse then skill point trading are Plex. For someone with enough money, Plex = instant unlimited amount of isk, if you are bright enough you will understand the full consequence for any parties in EvE to have access to unlimited ressources with absolutly no risk.
Only because someone wont or can't earn isk we can have free sub. When someone dumping PLEXes into the game market price droping which also beneficial for players. I am not debating the right or wrong of plex, i am just stating that EvE have already been prone to the so call "pay to win" syndrome with plex and character bazar. Skill point trading is nothing worse or better, it wont change nothing in the end regarding "pay to win"... But like the dev have stated it will help new player retention and thats the great thing about it. Also my opinion on the subject of "pay to win" is simple, isk or skill point wont make you win fight, so no there is no "pay to win" only "pay to get what you want faster".
If SP doesn't make you win a fight then there is no need to implement the system or the character bazaar then is there?
Its a strawman to say you want injectable SP yet more SP doesn't help you win anything, otherwise you'd be out pwning the galaxy in your bantam with civilian gatling.
Good luck however trying to remove point from a brick tanked near 1m SP damnation with your 30dps, I'm pretty sure your out of game epeen doesn't actual help with that.
|
Dave Stark
7596
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:01:10 -
[3214] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:With current proposal I would just stop at 49999999 and respec when needed.
go to 50,499,999.
once you extract 500,000 you drop below 50m, and get the full conversion rate when you inject it back in. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:07:35 -
[3215] - Quote
Public Relation wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: Is not the idea of getting to the end point faster classed as the "Win" ergo you have just explained pay to win at its finest. Lol, eveything is relative, in EvE ressources can be lost, so buying stuff with real cash mean you lost that money. There is an element of risk here in the great sheme of thing. Like it or not, if there was no plex or character bazzar, people would still "pay to win" with illegal RMT, and these have negative consequence on the game because poeple can easlily get scam and lose everything with not support from CCP. Basicly what we have now is the lesser of two evil scenario. And i believe CCP is handling it correctly.
There is a huge difference with whats being proposed over the normal bazaar sales that some think is the same, The closest i could suggest it would be the same would be that anything that was put up for sale in the bazaar would for them to just advertise a character for sale that has 30 mill unallocated sp's anything thats entered has its skillpoints zero'd. That would be the same but its just doesnt/wont happen, then theres the fee's a one time payment vs this new TSP is just to make more money per pack end of story. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
113
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:10:32 -
[3216] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Portmanteau wrote:
Oddly enough I think both POVs will occur. I agree that SPs as a commodity will seems less important to some, to me in fact. But also more SPs within easier reach of newer guys will have the opposite effect, like dangling a pipe in front of a crack ho.
Indeed! But since they will be purchasable ONLY WITH ISK, this could also just motivate them to make ISK. True, ISK can be purchased with PLEX, but that's nothing new.
https://youtu.be/I2Y5nL0P7Yc?t=14s |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9308
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:12:14 -
[3217] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: There is a huge difference with whats being proposed over the normal bazaar sales that some think is the same.
Agreed.
Buying a character will be 10 to 20 times cheaper depending on the SP desired than using SP packs.
And that, my fellow forum dweller, is a huge difference.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
147
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:12:34 -
[3218] - Quote
BirdStrike wrote:If SP doesn't make you win a fight then there is no need to implement the system or the character bazaar then is there?
Its a strawman to say you want injectable SP yet more SP doesn't help you win anything, otherwise you'd be out pwning the galaxy in your bantam with civilian gatling.
Good luck however trying to remove point from a brick tanked near 1m SP damnation with your 30dps, I'm pretty sure your out of game epeen doesn't actual help with that. For the most part, SP dictates the amount of various stuff you can do in EvE. In the end of the day, there is still a hard cap on every skill, where 80% of the skill doesn't even take that long to train.
What this change does, is give players the option to skip that weeks of training to get the relevant skills to a decent level. But the cap is still there, and the total amount of SP on your character will still not decide the outcome of a fight.
This is why people tell you that SP does not have as much of an impact as some people might have you believe. Only a few skills will be relevant to the actual fight, and all skills are capped at lvl 5. In addition, EvE has a paper-rock-scissors PvP system and not one based on stats comparison, meaning that ship choice and knowledge is the more important factor in PvP, opposed to SP. |
Public Relation
Outer Space Relic Seekers
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:14:29 -
[3219] - Quote
BirdStrike wrote:Public Relation wrote:General Lootit wrote:Public Relation wrote: Worse then skill point trading are Plex. For someone with enough money, Plex = instant unlimited amount of isk, if you are bright enough you will understand the full consequence for any parties in EvE to have access to unlimited ressources with absolutly no risk.
Only because someone wont or can't earn isk we can have free sub. When someone dumping PLEXes into the game market price droping which also beneficial for players. I am not debating the right or wrong of plex, i am just stating that EvE have already been prone to the so call "pay to win" syndrome with plex and character bazar. Skill point trading is nothing worse or better, it wont change nothing in the end regarding "pay to win"... But like the dev have stated it will help new player retention and thats the great thing about it. Also my opinion on the subject of "pay to win" is simple, isk or skill point wont make you win fight, so no there is no "pay to win" only "pay to get what you want faster". If SP doesn't make you win a fight then there is no need to implement the system or the character bazaar then is there? Its a strawman to say you want injectable SP yet more SP doesn't help you win anything, otherwise you'd be out pwning the galaxy in your bantam with civilian gatling. Good luck however trying to remove point from a brick tanked near 1m SP damnation with your 30dps, I'm pretty sure your out of game epeen doesn't actual help with that.
All this can be also done with time playing the game. There is nothing a playing can buy that someone cannot get playing the game normaly.
Pay to win is when someone can get an unavailable advantage without paying for it.
Player skill > character skill, that cannot be bought. I have seen player beat T2 ship with combat bonuses ship using a T1 ship with no combat bonuses, 1v1. |
BirdStrike
State War Academy Caldari State
72
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:21:13 -
[3220] - Quote
Public Relation wrote:BirdStrike wrote:Public Relation wrote:General Lootit wrote:Public Relation wrote: Worse then skill point trading are Plex. For someone with enough money, Plex = instant unlimited amount of isk, if you are bright enough you will understand the full consequence for any parties in EvE to have access to unlimited ressources with absolutly no risk.
Only because someone wont or can't earn isk we can have free sub. When someone dumping PLEXes into the game market price droping which also beneficial for players. I am not debating the right or wrong of plex, i am just stating that EvE have already been prone to the so call "pay to win" syndrome with plex and character bazar. Skill point trading is nothing worse or better, it wont change nothing in the end regarding "pay to win"... But like the dev have stated it will help new player retention and thats the great thing about it. Also my opinion on the subject of "pay to win" is simple, isk or skill point wont make you win fight, so no there is no "pay to win" only "pay to get what you want faster". If SP doesn't make you win a fight then there is no need to implement the system or the character bazaar then is there? Its a strawman to say you want injectable SP yet more SP doesn't help you win anything, otherwise you'd be out pwning the galaxy in your bantam with civilian gatling. Good luck however trying to remove point from a brick tanked near 1m SP damnation with your 30dps, I'm pretty sure your out of game epeen doesn't actual help with that. All this can be also done with time playing the game. There is nothing a playing can buy that someone cannot get playing the game normaly. Pay to win is when someone can get an unavailable advantage without paying for it. Player skill > character skill, that cannot be bought. I have seen player beat T2 ship with combat bonuses ship using a T1 ship with no combat bonuses, 1v1.
You don't need a system to buy SP then do you, you can fly almost all t1 fits within your first month in game. If SP makes no difference and its all about player skill why does this argument even exist?
|
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:23:11 -
[3221] - Quote
Public Relation wrote:BirdStrike wrote:If SP doesn't make you win a fight then there is no need to implement the system or the character bazaar then is there?
Its a strawman to say you want injectable SP yet more SP doesn't help you win anything, otherwise you'd be out pwning the galaxy in your bantam with civilian gatling.
Good luck however trying to remove point from a brick tanked near 1m SP damnation with your 30dps, I'm pretty sure your out of game epeen doesn't actual help with that.
All this can be also done with time playing the game. There is nothing a playing can buy that someone cannot get playing the game normaly. Pay to win is when someone can get an unavailable advantage without paying for it. Player skill > character skill, that cannot be bought. I have seen player beat T2 ship with combat bonuses ship using a T1 ship with no combat bonuses, 1v1. That conversation would benefit from defining P2W.
How about "fun"? That's sorta vague, so there are plenty of definitions of fun through motivation. If you won't look that up, none of it comes from SP as a system -- but playing well, being valuable as a character, and exploring. Fitting a frigate effectively is more fun that t1 nonsense-fittings because of SP. Getting plenty of content from reduced limitations (and thus more newbie effectiveness) is fun for all, from the newbies and veterans learning and instructing through the increased strategy from increased, actual skill.
SP is all paying to have more fun, whether it's through playing Skillqueue Offline for multiple subs or through injector SP. Is that P2W? Yes.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
702
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:23:29 -
[3222] - Quote
So I read an article on the internet and it said something along the lines of, anyone who is against this change is really just projecting their emotional insecurities and are letting their irrationalities manifest themselves because they as people have zero self-control.
But it's OK, because we, the deciders, understand you're incapable of logical thought so we know to just ignore the things you say and write your name down on The List.
Great change CCP, way to take the initiative in saving EvE. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:30:53 -
[3223] - Quote
BirdStrike wrote: You don't need a system to buy SP then do you, you can fly almost all t1 fits within your first month in game. If SP makes no difference and its all about player skill why does this argument even exist?
Because PvP is only one of many in-game activities which may requiring more SP than that. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9308
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:31:01 -
[3224] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:So I read an article on the internet and it said something along the lines of, anyone who is against this change is really just projecting their emotional insecurities and are letting their irrationalities manifest themselves because they as people have zero self-control.
But it's OK, because we, the deciders, understand you're incapable of logical thought so we know to just ignore the things you say and write your name down on The List.
Great change CCP, way to take the initiative in saving EvE. Most of them are not only incapable of logical thought, they are incapable of understanding your first paragraph.
*ducks and covers*
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
210
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:33:18 -
[3225] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:So I read an article on the internet and it said something along the lines of, anyone who is against this change is really just projecting their emotional insecurities and are letting their irrationalities manifest themselves because they as people have zero self-control.
But it's OK, because we, the deciders, understand you're incapable of logical thought so we know to just ignore the things you say and write your name down on The List.
Great change CCP, way to take the initiative in saving EvE. *chuckles*
Clutching at straws now here I see.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Soltys
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:33:50 -
[3226] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:With current proposal I would just stop at 49999999 and respec when needed. go to 50,499,999. once you extract 500,000 you drop below 50m, and get the lower penalty rate when you inject it back in.
I sincerely hope they will either lower/adjust or remove this whole "diminishing return" constraint. Treat every character fairly regardless of its SP pool and without some weird misconception that SP implies loyality or commitment or "prestige". It doesn't, it's just a byproduct of active subscription (and a tiny nanobot in background, pushing meaningless XP bar ... erm SP bar to the right). A guy that resubscribes after 5 years and decides to remain with severely underdeveloped character instead of going to bazaar - that's what commitment means.
Hell, it would be better to introduce 2-3 skills in game to learn (that cannot be skill point injected), deciding when and at what penalty a character can eat SP packs (it starts at 100% penalty), e.g.:
- neurotransport (requires some IV and maybe V skills - biology, science, whatever other **** etc.) rank M; allows use of SP packs; decreases penalty by 4% per level - neurotransport synchronization (requires neurotransport V) rank N; lessens penalty by 15% per level - neurotransport calibration (requires neurotransport synchronization IV) rank L; lessens penalty by 10% per level
All skills maxed allow eating with 10% skill loss. Neurotransport trained to level I only is 96% loss.
Adjust M, N, L to create pre-requisite timesink after which SP can be eaten properly. Adjust skillbook prices to create pre-requisite ISK sink.
And keep it fair and the same - whether the receiving character has 1m SP or 200m SP.
Either way the SP in this game with a decade+ of bloated baggage needs serious attention. Either:
- fix it - lowering ranks, adjusting prerequisities, de-linearizing bonuses so IV covers 90%+ of possible bonus and costs shifted to more expensive skillbooks instead of artificial timesink; so in essence something that would be first and foremonst walled by ISK instead of time
or
- turn it into commodity ruled by ISK (like everything in this game)
The former would cause pretty large outcry from bazaar buyers/sellers feeling robbed from their time and money. It would also devalue all learning implants and all attribute remapping plans (SP packs do this as well)
The latter causes the outcry from this thread =)
CCP chose the latter.
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
|
Buoytender Bob
Ronin Exploration Mission and Mining
127
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:36:21 -
[3227] - Quote
Sorry if I missed the answer to these questions: Is the skill extractor you purchase from the EVE store and needed to make the skill packets you will sell reusable? If reusable, for how long/much skill points retasked? What will be the cost of the extractor? (yes, I know it is in aurum).
I'm not sure there was a player generated need (request) for this product; if there was, I don't remember seeing it mentioned in the forums. This proposed feature appears to mostly help the following:
1) Veteran players with multiple characters wishing to shed "unused" skill points/characters for isk. This would include those who specifically create and skill up characters only for later sale. The vast majority use Plex to pay for their accounts at the moment. Most are already in the upper 5% of EVE wealth, this just gives them another revenue stream.
2) Rich newbies wanting to "skip to the good part" and paying even more cash to rapidly skill up their characters. I can see the increase in content creation as the newbs overreach and end up losing some of their wealth through lack of experience. While some may then purchase Plex to sell to make up for lost assets (reducing Plex costs, I think), I also feel the EVE customer service may be getting a large inflow of tickets from the inexperienced for their losses.
3) Veteran players with a single account who would love to train their alts up high enough to become effective in their specialized career. This would be the most positive effect, since many single account owners have a character or two relegated to obscurity and probably not utilized very often. Less expensive than paying for allowing a second training character at the same time? I don't know.
I don't think it will bring in a huge new flux of players, but i could be wrong. A group of friends starting the game at the same time may find that they are mission/objective incompatible after a month due to purchased skill packets. Perhaps CCP is hoping for a large influx of "whales" looking for a way to buy themselves into power, although I imagine most of those are investing into the "other" beta test games out there at this time.
At this time, and with the details to be determined, I find myself slightly in favor of this plan, although it probably won't directly affect me very much. If I do utilize the option in the future, it will probably for reason number 3 and I'm sure that this isn't the group CCP is catering to at the moment.
To buck the popular trend, I began to Rage Start instead of Rage Quit.
...and every time I get another piece of Carbon, I know exactly what CCP is getting this Christmas.
|
Terraj Oknatis
xX-Crusader-Xx Tactical Narcotics Team
28
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:37:19 -
[3228] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:I'm posting as someone who is fairly new to EVE (2 months, 3.5M SP).
In EVE, interesting content is walled off by skill points barriers, and hence by character time. A big problem is that the new content is not becoming available roughly linear with time. Rather, there are chunks of new game content that become available as you cross some threshold or the other, and then long wait times until you can manage to cross the next threshold.
For example, I'm currently training cov ops and related stuff with the aim to get a reasonably fit explorer frigate to go through wormhole and null/low sec stealthily without getting blown up by every random player who spots me. That takes a month or so. Frankly, I've been playing less while waiting for the skill queue to complete. I don't actually want to mine or rat more asteroid belts, and high sec exploring is getting stale. I can't really run cooler missions than I have been, because I would have to train up skills for my cruiser. But I'm already training the stealth stuff.
What would happen if skill packets were available?
1. I would but a PLEX, convert it into ISK and buy enough skill packets to complete my stealth skills. 2. I would fly my cov ops frigate into worm holes and null/low sec to explore. 3. Because I have stealth, I would probably not get blown up instantly. 4. Because I am unexperienced, I would eventually make some newbie mistake, and get blown up anyway. 5. Rinse and repeat, with me getting better by experience at using stealth and dying less and less.
And this hurts everybody else and in particular experienced players how exactly? Best I can tell, they get
1. Extra PLEX in the market, driving the PLEX price down. 2. Somebody to sell "unwanted" SP to for a lot of ISK. 3. An extra target running around outside of high sec. 4. An extra target that is more of a challenge than a random newbie in a Heron, but still quite killable. 5. A player who is actually still paying CCP subscription money not getting bored into quitting.
Can I abuse all this to boost me all the way to flying a Titan? Well, theoretically. But given how I get rapidly less "bang for the buck" as the SP in my character increases, this would mean major investments of real money.
I expect a skill packet will cost roughly what it costs to train that 500k SP. Let's say you can generate a bit more than 2,000 SP per hour, then you need 10 days to generate one skill packet. Consequently, I expect the market price of a skill packet to be around a third of a PLEX, perhaps a bit less. Let's say it's about 350M ISK.
To boost a character from 0 to 5M SP would hence cost about 3.5B ISK. To boost the character further to 50M SP would cost another 31.5B ISK. To get to 80M SP would require 52.5B ISK, you see there how the reduced skill points gained per packet start to bite. And finally, to get to 100M SP would require another 140B ISK. So in total, from zero to 100M SP would require 227.5B ISK.
Now, maybe you have that kind of money in game, or maybe you have that kind of money in real life to spend on a game. I sure don't. Most people playing EVE I suspect do not have that either. For most people this will be a good way to get their character over a skill speed bump - to be used occasionally.
I think it is a good idea. It will make more newbies do more things faster. It will drive PLEX prices down. And the only people who will full-finance characters to top skills will be the super-rich of EVE. Most skill shopping will be only up to "useful basics" levels of perhaps 10-20M SP, which are somewhat affordable.
Thank you for your insight. Those are some really good points you are making. If i was going to give you a suggestion, Don't wait for stealth V to get out there and explore your wormholes. You have so much to gain by just going in there in a t1 exploration frig and running the sites. If you get blown up you will loose 1-2 mil a ship. However if you succeed you could be pulling down anywhere from 5-10mil a site!. There are no rats in those exploration sites in wormholes (as long as they are the null sec ones. The sleeper ones will have sleepers and they will blow up any frig within a few secs.) Wormholes do not have a local so you have an advantage. Chances are the owners aren't even awake.
Here is the thing about T2 ships. They die just the same as T1 ships but they cost 4-5X as much. If someone sees you and wants to catch you in a site they will. so STAB UP and get in there and start making some isk! Chances are if your going to sp boost your character you will be draining a lot of isk/rl money on the skill points, but then you still have to buy the ships! Because your inexperienced you won't be checking D scan like you should and you will be loosing T2/asteros instead of a magnate. The cost difference on that is HUGE! You will just end up frustrated that you spent so much isk trying to be good at the game. The secret about eve is you don't have to have skill points to be good about the game, you have to be smart. From this post I can tell that you are very smart. Just figure it out!
So just get out there and don't worry so much about your sp. The sp will come in time. SP is like Dumbo's magic feather. You don't need it to fly! |
Public Relation
Outer Space Relic Seekers
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:55:41 -
[3229] - Quote
BirdStrike wrote:You don't need a system to buy SP then do you, you can fly almost all t1 fits within your first month in game. If SP makes no difference and its all about player skill why does this argument even exist?
Depending on the definition and people idea of winning/losing, there is already way to pave your way into "paying" to whatever: Plex and character transfert. So no point of arguing over and over, over the pay to win.
Skill point trading is nothing worse or better then Character trading. It is more convenient i agree then character trading, but in the end both are SP selling. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:59:58 -
[3230] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Great analysis, as always! Got me thinking: if CCP keeps the extractor PLEX-equivalent price (in AUR) lower than the expected PLEX-equivalent price of the 500,000 SP, this whole thing will probably INCREASE PLEX supply, which is pretty cool! Thanks. Indeed, I think it is highly likely that PLEX prices will drop because of this.
1. Who is putting new PLEX into circulations anyhow? People who either cannot grind the ISK, or do not want to (likely in part because it would take far too long). Thus mostly players that are new to middle aged (in game).
2. Whom is this skill package system benefitting particularly? New to middle aged players. They suddenly have a brand new product to spend lots of ISK on.
3. How can they get the additional ISK required? Their situation has not changed, hence basically by buying more PLEX for real money and cashing them in for ISK.
4. Thus the PLEX supply goes up, and the PLEX price drops.
5. If, as many here claim, many vets will leave EVE over this then what would that do? It would lowed the demand for PLEX, and hence make PLEX prices drop even further. (I don't believe that there will be significant drop in vet numbers, but if that happens, then it will push the price the same way.)
Hence the smart money will be on PLEX prices dropping due to this. In fact, I expect that as soon as CCP confirms that they will do this for sure, PLEX prices will start to fall immediately. Because if you are really smart, then you cash in PLEX while the prices are still sky high and sit on the ISK until the skill packets finally become available.
Furthermore, I think there is a good chance for a hard PLEX price crash when this goes live. Suddenly a large number of people will become aware of this new opportunity, but will find themselves short of ISK. What will they do to get in one the skill packet rush? Buy PLEX for real money and sell for ISK. So a whole lot of new PLEX may be dumped on the market in a short time, and that may make the price crash. If that happens, then of course it could be very profitable to buy PLEX at the crash price and keep them to sell later when things have normalised again... |
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
211
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:07:34 -
[3231] - Quote
That's the dumbest :logic: I've seen in a while, it's almost as if you're making up reasoning in order to frame something. Almost... |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
115
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:09:29 -
[3232] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:So I read an article on the internet and it said something along the lines of, anyone who is against this change is really just projecting their emotional insecurities and are letting their irrationalities manifest themselves because they as people have zero self-control.
But it's OK, because we, the deciders, understand you're incapable of logical thought so we know to just ignore the things you say and write your name down on The List.
Great change CCP, way to take the initiative in saving EvE.
What an arrogant pile of horseshit, of course anyone who doesn't subscribe to your POV must have something wrong with them. |
Dave Stark
7598
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:09:34 -
[3233] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Great analysis, as always! Got me thinking: if CCP keeps the extractor PLEX-equivalent price (in AUR) lower than the expected PLEX-equivalent price of the 500,000 SP, this whole thing will probably INCREASE PLEX supply, which is pretty cool! Thanks. Indeed, I think it is highly likely that PLEX prices will drop because of this. 1. Who is putting new PLEX into circulations anyhow? People who either cannot grind the ISK, or do not want to (likely in part because it would take far too long). Thus mostly players that are new to middle aged (in game). 2. Whom is this skill package system benefitting particularly? New to middle aged players. They suddenly have a brand new product to spend lots of ISK on. 3. How can they get the additional ISK required? Their situation has not changed, hence basically by buying more PLEX for real money and cashing them in for ISK. 4. Thus the PLEX supply goes up, and the PLEX price drops. 5. If, as many here claim, many vets will leave EVE over this then what would that do? It would lowed the demand for PLEX, and hence make PLEX prices drop even further. (I don't believe that there will be significant drop in vet numbers, but if that happens, then it will push the price the same way.) Hence the smart money will be on PLEX prices dropping due to this. In fact, I expect that as soon as CCP confirms that they will do this for sure, PLEX prices will start to fall immediately. Because if you are really smart, then you cash in PLEX while the prices are still sky high and sit on the ISK until the skill packets finally become available. Furthermore, I think there is a good chance for a hard PLEX price crash when this goes live. Suddenly a large number of people will become aware of this new opportunity, but will find themselves short of ISK. What will they do to get in one the skill packet rush? Buy PLEX for real money and sell for ISK. So a whole lot of new PLEX may be dumped on the market in a short time, and that may make the price crash. If that happens, then of course it could be very profitable to buy PLEX at the crash price and keep them to sell later when things have normalised again...
you seem to have forgotten that extractors will be purchased with aur, putting upwards pressure on plex prices. i sincerely doubt enough people will be dropping IRL currency on plex to drop on the market to offset that upwards pressure.
you HAVE to use a plex to create TSPs, you don't have to use a plex to purchase them. |
Dave Stark
7598
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:10:20 -
[3234] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:So I read an article on the internet and it said something along the lines of, anyone who is against this change is really just projecting their emotional insecurities and are letting their irrationalities manifest themselves because they as people have zero self-control.
But it's OK, because we, the deciders, understand you're incapable of logical thought so we know to just ignore the things you say and write your name down on The List.
Great change CCP, way to take the initiative in saving EvE. What an arrogant pile of horseshit, of course anyone who doesn't subscribe to your POV must have something wrong with them.
actually, if you don't agree with them it makes you a CCP employee ;) |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
115
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:11:56 -
[3235] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote: Thanks. Indeed, I think it is highly likely that PLEX prices will drop because of this.
LMFAO you cannot possibly predict this, unless you can search your crystal ball and tell us how many people will pay for SPs with cash and how many will pay with isk.
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
115
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:12:53 -
[3236] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:So I read an article on the internet and it said something along the lines of, anyone who is against this change is really just projecting their emotional insecurities and are letting their irrationalities manifest themselves because they as people have zero self-control.
But it's OK, because we, the deciders, understand you're incapable of logical thought so we know to just ignore the things you say and write your name down on The List.
Great change CCP, way to take the initiative in saving EvE. What an arrogant pile of horseshit, of course anyone who doesn't subscribe to your POV must have something wrong with them. actually, if you don't agree with them it makes you a CCP employee ;)
equally as ridiculous TBF
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
210
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:17:26 -
[3237] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Tristan Agion wrote: Thanks. Indeed, I think it is highly likely that PLEX prices will drop because of this.
LMFAO you cannot possibly predict this, unless you can search your crystal ball and tell us how many people will pay for SPs with cash and how many will pay with isk. Another aspect is that we don't know how much we are going to have to pay to purchase these nueral extractors. Veteren players are going to be purchasing PLEX to convert to aurum to purcahse them, so for any increase in supply there will also be an direct increase in demand.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4193
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:18:28 -
[3238] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Tristan Agion wrote: Thanks. Indeed, I think it is highly likely that PLEX prices will drop because of this.
LMFAO you cannot possibly predict this, unless you can search your crystal ball and tell us how many people will pay for SPs with cash and how many will pay with isk. Actually, that's not an option. Skill packets will be sold by players, for ISK.
If you don't have enough ISK, you'll need to buy and sell a PLEX.
It's the extractors that cost AUR. So you'd spend AUR (thus cash) only to reallocate your SP or trade among your alts. If you want MOAR SP, you need to give ISK to a fellow player.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Nilitys
Zervas Aeronautics The Bastion
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:22:26 -
[3239] - Quote
-1 for CCP!
I understand the need for the Aurum system so that CCP can make more cash over it. As long as it's only cosmetics items ( or PLEX related) and I believe that it is the right way to do it!
BUT, this is affecting the gameplay and it is turning the game in pay2win! Almost every MMO or Free2play I know of who did something like that is Dead or dieing!
So, CCP, If you love EVE, please don't! it will kill EVE! |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4193
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:22:43 -
[3240] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:you HAVE to use a plex to create TSPs, you don't have to use a plex to purchase them. Yes, it will depend on the PLEX-equivalent price of extractors relative to the market price of SP (on which we argued on a few pages back lol).
If, say, 1 extractor = 1/10 PLEX, you'll easily have people spending more PLEX-equivalent ISK than PLEX-equivalent AUR.
This for player-to-player SP trading. If everybody starts to buy extractors for DIY skill reallocation or trading among alts, then indeed PLEX demand will rise more than PLEX supply.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
|
BirdStrike
State War Academy Caldari State
74
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:24:40 -
[3241] - Quote
Public Relation wrote:BirdStrike wrote:You don't need a system to buy SP then do you, you can fly almost all t1 fits within your first month in game. If SP makes no difference and its all about player skill why does this argument even exist?
Depending on the definition and people idea of winning/losing, there is already way to pave your way into "paying" to whatever: Plex and character transfert. So no point of arguing over and over, over the pay to win . Skill point trading is nothing worse or better then Character trading. It is more convenient i agree then character trading, but in the end both are SP selling.
Nothing they really do will make EVE pay to win, because
there is nothing to win. The film Layer Cake springs to mind with the speech Michael Gambon makes.
However SP makes life in EVE easier: you have the opportunity to make more isk in pve activities. The more isk you can make the more trivial pvp losses become, so you can engage more with better tools. But you still don't get a certain win outcome because there is no one size fits all wtfbbq ship (the svipul maybe..) and EVE is balanced in the flavour of the blob. A single solo officer fit nyx is dead in the water vs a t1 blob of logis, battleships and hictors. The Nyx only becomes unbreakable with a sufficent fleet of spider tank rep carriers and a titan or two just in case. You can have all the isk and Sp in the world and the pimpest ships in the game but you can't buy friends who've got your six, and EVE is the sort of playerbase where if you try and buy your friends they are more likely to gank/scam you than help you.
The only benefit this new system will have is appeasing the iwantnow crowd and lining CCPs pockets. But as I said earlier, its a short sighted because the quicker players achieve their goals, the quicker they become bored and look elsewhere because EVE's real problem is not the mostly pointless grind, its a decade of stagnation papering over the cracks.
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4193
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:27:08 -
[3242] - Quote
Nilitys wrote:-1 for CCP!
I understand the need for the Aurum system so that CCP can make more cash over it. As long as it's only cosmetics items ( or PLEX related) and I believe that it is the right way to do it!
BUT, this is affecting the gameplay and it is turning the game in pay2win! Almost every MMO or Free2play I know of who did something like that is Dead or dieing!
So, CCP, If you love EVE, please don't! it will kill EVE! Note that it's similar to the PLEX system.
You get ISK for PLEX from other players, not from CCP.
With the proposed system, you'll get SP from other players (not from CCP), supposedly by giving them ISK in return. It's the players selling the SP that need to buy AUR first, to create these darn Transexual Skill Packets. That, or if you want to use the system just to move SP among your alts or reallocate your own SP.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
115
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:27:26 -
[3243] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Tristan Agion wrote: Thanks. Indeed, I think it is highly likely that PLEX prices will drop because of this.
LMFAO you cannot possibly predict this, unless you can search your crystal ball and tell us how many people will pay for SPs with cash and how many will pay with isk. Actually, that's not an option. Skill packets will be sold by players, for ISK. If you don't have enough ISK, you'll need to buy and sell a PLEX. It's the extractors that cost AUR. So you'd spend AUR (thus cash) only to reallocate your SP or trade among your alts. If you want MOAR SP, you need to give ISK to a fellow player.
I think you may have missed my point there Gully, SPs bought with isk, whether that isk comes from PVE or buying plex with RL cash will affect plex price in different ways and there's no reliable way to predict which outcome will be more popular.
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4193
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:29:32 -
[3244] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Tristan Agion wrote: Thanks. Indeed, I think it is highly likely that PLEX prices will drop because of this.
LMFAO you cannot possibly predict this, unless you can search your crystal ball and tell us how many people will pay for SPs with cash and how many will pay with isk. Actually, that's not an option. Skill packets will be sold by players, for ISK. If you don't have enough ISK, you'll need to buy and sell a PLEX. It's the extractors that cost AUR. So you'd spend AUR (thus cash) only to reallocate your SP or trade among your alts. If you want MOAR SP, you need to give ISK to a fellow player. I think you may have missed my point there Gully, SPs bought with isk, whether that isk comes from PVE or buying plex with RL cash will affect plex price in different ways and there's no reliable way to predict which outcome will be more popular. Yes this is true. But PLEX is a much easier way to get ISK than PVE...
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dave Stark
7598
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:33:57 -
[3245] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:you HAVE to use a plex to create TSPs, you don't have to use a plex to purchase them. Yes, it will depend on the PLEX-equivalent price of extractors relative to the market price of SP (on which we argued on a few pages back lol). If, say, 1 extractor = 1/10 PLEX, you'll easily have people spending more PLEX-equivalent ISK than PLEX-equivalent AUR. This for player-to-player SP trading. If everybody starts to buy extractors for DIY skill reallocation or trading among alts, then indeed PLEX demand will rise more than PLEX supply.
consider the following;
upwards pressure on plex is non-optional when creating TSPs downwards pressure on plex is completely optional when consuming TSPs.
we know there's a very large demand for character transfers, and thus TSPs. unless TSPs are hilariously cheap, demand for TSPs would have to be hilariously high to offset the upwards pressure from creating TSPs, and then it would have to subsequently offset EVERY SINGLE OTHER REASON why Plex prices keep rising to see a fall in plex prices. |
Joe Pup
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:38:53 -
[3246] - Quote
Little by little I see that what made Eve Online great, CONSEQUENCES, is being eroded by the micro transaction mechanics that infests all other MMO titles.
I'm a long term subscriber who respectfully asks that CCP please stop this and keep the game true to its roots.
Kind Regards. |
Hendrick Tallardar
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
472
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:43:21 -
[3247] - Quote
As a person who helps run a new player focused alliance, this is a great idea albeit in need of some number tweaking and make some provisions to prevent abuse. Overall a solid plan to help new players catch up to veterans in terms of skillpoints.
EVE Online Weekly & Monthly Nullsec Recaps | EVE Streams
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4193
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:44:07 -
[3248] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:you HAVE to use a plex to create TSPs, you don't have to use a plex to purchase them. Yes, it will depend on the PLEX-equivalent price of extractors relative to the market price of SP (on which we argued on a few pages back lol). If, say, 1 extractor = 1/10 PLEX, you'll easily have people spending more PLEX-equivalent ISK than PLEX-equivalent AUR. This for player-to-player SP trading. If everybody starts to buy extractors for DIY skill reallocation or trading among alts, then indeed PLEX demand will rise more than PLEX supply. consider the following; upwards pressure on plex is non-optional when creating TSPs downwards pressure on plex is completely optional when consuming TSPs. we know there's a very large demand for character transfers, and thus TSPs. unless TSPs are hilariously cheap, demand for TSPs would have to be hilariously high to offset the upwards pressure from creating TSPs, and then it would have to subsequently offset EVERY SINGLE OTHER REASON why Plex prices keep rising to see a fall in plex prices. Yeah, you're right about the other reasons for PLEX price increases.
But how much do you think extractors will cost? Assuming 1 PLEX = 1.2 bil and 500,000 SP = 1/4 PLEX = 300 mil (don't want to argue again!), CCP should price these extractors no more than 10 to 20% max of the predicted SP market price. Otherwise they'd really kill their new system with too high 'taxes'.
Say it will be 60 mil, or, more accurately, 1/20 of a PLEX.
If you use PLEX to buy these thingies, you'll need about 1/3 of a PLEX each TSP.
So, 1/3 PLEX additional supply versus 1/20 PLEX additional demand. Sounds good for PLEX prices!
But sure, both extractor price and how much these things will be bought through PLEX (instead of in-game generated ISK) is anyone's guess.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Etara Silverblade
Morex Group Inc. Haven.
49
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:44:20 -
[3249] - Quote
As many have said, this sounds like a bad joke and I can't believe the CSM isn't fighting this loudly and publicly. Any CSM that hasn't come out against this already is not going to get my vote next election.
I am against character sales and anyone who buys characters is just looking for an easy win and doesn't actually like the game for what it is. They are second class citizens and CCP should not promote it or any other form of payment for skill points. If they are in need of money then they should raise the subscription price because I'd rather pay more and know my skill points are worth something.
Skill points are a reward for loyalty to the game and now CCP wants to cash in on the loyalty or lack of loyalty of some players. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4194
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:46:59 -
[3250] - Quote
Etara Silverblade wrote:Skill points are a reward for loyalty to the game and now CCP wants to cash in on the loyalty or lack of loyalty of some players. You could also say that skill points are CCP's way to keep people subbed and paying them for years, and now they're just changing the way they want to get paid.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:47:43 -
[3251] - Quote
BirdStrike wrote:Public Relation wrote:BirdStrike wrote:You don't need a system to buy SP then do you, you can fly almost all t1 fits within your first month in game. If SP makes no difference and its all about player skill why does this argument even exist?
Depending on the definition and people idea of winning/losing, there is already way to pave your way into "paying" to whatever: Plex and character transfert. So no point of arguing over and over, over the pay to win . Skill point trading is nothing worse or better then Character trading. It is more convenient i agree then character trading, but in the end both are SP selling. Nothing they really do will make EVE pay to win, because there is nothing to win. The film Layer Cake springs to mind with the speech Michael Gambon makes. However SP makes life in EVE easier: you have the opportunity to make more isk in pve activities. The more isk you can make the more trivial pvp losses become, so you can engage more with better tools. But you still don't get a certain win outcome because there is no one size fits all wtfbbq ship (the svipul maybe..) and EVE is balanced in the flavour of the blob. A single solo officer fit nyx is dead in the water vs a t1 blob of logis, battleships and hictors. The Nyx only becomes unbreakable with a sufficent fleet of spider tank rep carriers and a titan or two just in case. You can have all the isk and Sp in the world and the pimpest ships in the game but you can't buy friends who've got your six, and EVE is the sort of playerbase where if you try and buy your friends they are more likely to gank/scam you than help you. The only benefit this new system will have is appeasing the iwantnow crowd and lining CCPs pockets. But as I said earlier, its a short sighted because the quicker players achieve their goals, the quicker they become bored and look elsewhere because EVE's real problem is not the mostly pointless grind, its a decade of stagnation papering over the cracks. Except, support can be purchased, whether through alts or thorugh corps and alliances.
Just criticizing the newbie demographic and their slightly-reduced barrier to entry is shallow. There's a whole majority of the game that can make much more than newbies and supply their SP requirements, whether alts or recruits, for very specific roles and placements.
You're still not defining P2W, nor really investing in the ideas that come from and are prevented by SP. That's what's relevant for if newbies are any more interested in the game. They still can't be really efficient for the multiple roles that are included with this RPG, and if that's why they come (the depth of the game), even this really gate stream of improvement still has to be more interesting than all of the other games, especially which are free.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4194
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:50:21 -
[3252] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:not being funny but also - most large organisations in eve can afford to replace their line members ships. take a t2 logi ship for example. 135m for the hull alone in jita. they replace that on a whim. do you really think they won't shower new players with TSPs when they start so they can sit in more useful ships when we know that TSPs will only be around the 300m mark? that kind of purchasing certainly offers no downwards pressure on plex prices. I agree with your edit as well.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dave Stark
7598
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:51:43 -
[3253] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Yeah, you're right about the other reasons for PLEX price increases.
But how much do you think extractors will cost? Assuming 1 PLEX = 1.2 bil and 500,000 SP = 1/4 PLEX = 300 mil (don't want to argue again!), CCP should price these extractors no more than 10 to 20% max of the predicted SP market price. Otherwise they'd really kill their new system with too high 'taxes'.
Say it will be 60 mil, or, more accurately, 1/20 of a PLEX.
If you use PLEX to buy these thingies, you'll need about 1/3 of a PLEX each TSP.
So, 1/3 PLEX additional supply versus 1/20 PLEX additional demand. Sounds good for PLEX prices!
But sure, both extractor price and how much these things will be bought through PLEX (instead of in-game generated ISK) is anyone's guess.
I am expecting them to be quite cheap. consider you can move an unlimited number of SP for 2 plex with the bazaar at the moment.
we know "most" characters traded on the bazzar are under 50m SP. (thank you ccp terminus). so let's call that the average for arguments's sake.
so for 50m sp, that's 100 TSPs of SP, it'll cost you 2 plex to transfer it. keeping that ratio, it's 50 extractors per plex.
that's a lot of extractors per plex. that's 24m each. that's going to be just under 10% of the "production cost" of the SP needed to create a TSP.
any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).
so i'm expecting them to be somewhere between 5-10% of the cost of a TSP.
however BIG ASS DISCLAIMER - THESE NUMBERS ARE PULLED OUT OF THIN AIR. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4194
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:53:33 -
[3254] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:however BIG ASS DISCLAIMER - THESE NUMBERS ARE PULLED OUT OF THIN AIR. meh, they sound reasonable to me
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:55:12 -
[3255] - Quote
Terraj Oknatis wrote:Thank you for your insight. Those are some really good points you are making. If i was going to give you a suggestion, Don't wait for stealth V to get out there and explore your wormholes. You have so much to gain by just going in there in a t1 exploration frig and running the sites. If you get blown up you will loose 1-2 mil a ship. However if you succeed you could be pulling down anywhere from 5-10mil a site! Thanks. It's a bit off topic, but I was in a worm hole the next day after doing the exploration career mission as a total newbie. It was a very quiet wormhole, and I got chased off only by NPCs.
I think a pure worm hole explorer (dipping in and out from high sec) would kind of work with a T1 frigate, but you would still have to train Arch and Hack to at least IV - preferably V, to get T2 data/relic analysers. You need better virus strength and coherence to crack the difficult sites consistently...
But as explorer I don't want to just do the worm holes. To a large extent I want to use the worm holes as safe gate to null and low sec. And if you want to travel null and low sec for any length of time, sitting in a T1 explorer frigate (filled with all the loot you have gathered) is basically suicide. I also think of future "stealth combat" roles I might want to play in a corp, perhaps scouting or covert cyno or stealth bomber PVP... To get the necessary experience with this, you actually want to roam widely as cov ops, not just "explore and run back to high sec". And if you want to play around with combat probes, then it will be difficult to fit the expanded launcher with T1 frigate CPU.
Terraj Oknatis wrote:so STAB UP and get in there and start making some isk! Chances are if your going to sp boost your character you will be draining a lot of isk/rl money on the skill points, but then you still have to buy the ships! Because your inexperienced you won't be checking D scan like you should and you will be loosing T2/asteros instead of a magnate. One of the reasons why I am training for a T2 cov ops rather than an Astero is the price point. I expect I can get a T2 cov ops for about 30M ISK, including decent but cheap fittings. I can die 2-3 times more often in that than in an Astero at the same cost.
One problem is that one needs scan strength at about 110 for the sleeper sites (I can get limited ones with 105, but not the better kinds). Buying SoE launchers helps, but bumps up the cost massively... The alternative is once more skill training: getting Cov Ops and Astrometrics to V gives 75 bonus... |
Dave Stark
7601
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:56:27 -
[3256] - Quote
Etara Silverblade wrote:As many have said, this sounds like a bad joke and I can't believe the CSM isn't fighting this loudly and publicly. Any CSM that hasn't come out against this already is not going to get my vote next election.
they are, as far as i have seen only gorski has come out in support of this idea. the rest like mike and steve, and sortdragon have openly said they are against it. some still seem to be on the fence, i think wingspantt is probably the most neutral i've seen of the CSM that have said something publicly and even he is likely to land on the "do not like" side of the fence were he to jump off it. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4195
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:57:26 -
[3257] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Etara Silverblade wrote:As many have said, this sounds like a bad joke and I can't believe the CSM isn't fighting this loudly and publicly. Any CSM that hasn't come out against this already is not going to get my vote next election. they are, as far as i have seen only gorski has come out in support of this idea. the rest like mike and steve, and sortdragon have openly said they are against it. some still seem to be on the fence, i think wingspantt is probably the most neutral i've seen of the CSM that have said something publicly and even he is likely to land on the "do not like" side of the fence were he to jump off it. Sugar blogged she doesn't like it as well.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dave Stark
7601
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:59:34 -
[3258] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:however BIG ASS DISCLAIMER - THESE NUMBERS ARE PULLED OUT OF THIN AIR. meh, they sound reasonable to me
yeah, but you know that some one will come back later and said "you said they're only gonna be 24m!!!!
but yeah i don't expect them to be that much, especially since if people want newer players to use them they are going to have to be accessible on a new player's income.
which, at current plex prices they aren't. as far as tweaking numbers goes - i think slashing everything by 90% would go a long way to helping.
300m is a lot to a new player, 30m isn't. a new player looks at 300m and says "i'll never afford that" vs 30m and say "****, my caracal cost me that much after i fit it and filled it with ammo, that's fairly cheap". |
Public Relation
Outer Space Relic Seekers
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:03:02 -
[3259] - Quote
BirdStrike wrote:Nothing they really do will make EVE pay to win, because
there is nothing to win. The film Layer Cake springs to mind with the speech Michael Gambon makes.
However SP makes life in EVE easier: you have the opportunity to make more isk in pve activities. The more isk you can make the more trivial pvp losses become, so you can engage more with better tools. But you still don't get a certain win outcome because there is no one size fits all wtfbbq ship (the svipul maybe..) and EVE is balanced in the flavour of the blob. A single solo officer fit nyx is dead in the water vs a t1 blob of logis, battleships and hictors. The Nyx only becomes unbreakable with a sufficent fleet of spider tank rep carriers and a titan or two just in case. You can have all the isk and Sp in the world and the pimpest ships in the game but you can't buy friends who've got your six, and EVE is the sort of playerbase where if you try and buy your friends they are more likely to gank/scam you than help you.
The only benefit this new system will have is appeasing the iwantnow crowd and lining CCPs pockets. But as I said earlier, its a short sighted because the quicker players achieve their goals, the quicker they become bored and look elsewhere because EVE's real problem is not the mostly pointless grind, its a decade of stagnation papering over the cracks.
OOps i hit post and didnt write a reply.. .editing right now.. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9309
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:03:37 -
[3260] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:however BIG ASS DISCLAIMER - THESE NUMBERS ARE PULLED OUT OF THIN AIR. meh, they sound reasonable to me Yeah.
Still I'm not even going to go there. Too much we haven't been told yet to discuss anything like costs in any but the most general terms.
Nonetheless, informed speculation is at least informed.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
|
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
117
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:03:52 -
[3261] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).
Except once again you ignored the fact that market with an entry level of 1-2 plexes will see a lot of customers that would not consider spending 20 or more plexes on the character bazaar. That market is targeted towards completely different audience. And for everyone following the thread its clear that you ignored this detail deliberately.
|
BirdStrike
State War Academy Caldari State
74
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:05:38 -
[3262] - Quote
Dror wrote:BirdStrike wrote:Public Relation wrote:BirdStrike wrote:You don't need a system to buy SP then do you, you can fly almost all t1 fits within your first month in game. If SP makes no difference and its all about player skill why does this argument even exist?
Depending on the definition and people idea of winning/losing, there is already way to pave your way into "paying" to whatever: Plex and character transfert. So no point of arguing over and over, over the pay to win . Skill point trading is nothing worse or better then Character trading. It is more convenient i agree then character trading, but in the end both are SP selling. Nothing they really do will make EVE pay to win, because there is nothing to win. The film Layer Cake springs to mind with the speech Michael Gambon makes. However SP makes life in EVE easier: you have the opportunity to make more isk in pve activities. The more isk you can make the more trivial pvp losses become, so you can engage more with better tools. But you still don't get a certain win outcome because there is no one size fits all wtfbbq ship (the svipul maybe..) and EVE is balanced in the flavour of the blob. A single solo officer fit nyx is dead in the water vs a t1 blob of logis, battleships and hictors. The Nyx only becomes unbreakable with a sufficent fleet of spider tank rep carriers and a titan or two just in case. You can have all the isk and Sp in the world and the pimpest ships in the game but you can't buy friends who've got your six, and EVE is the sort of playerbase where if you try and buy your friends they are more likely to gank/scam you than help you. The only benefit this new system will have is appeasing the iwantnow crowd and lining CCPs pockets. But as I said earlier, its a short sighted because the quicker players achieve their goals, the quicker they become bored and look elsewhere because EVE's real problem is not the mostly pointless grind, its a decade of stagnation papering over the cracks. Except, support can be purchased, whether through alts or thorugh corps and alliances. Just criticizing the newbie demographic and their slightly-reduced barrier to entry is shallow. There's a whole majority of the game that can make much more than newbies and supply their SP requirements, whether alts or recruits, for very specific roles and placements. You're still not defining P2W, nor really investing in the ideas that come from and are prevented by SP. That's what's relevant for if newbies are any more interested in the game. They still can't be really efficient for the multiple roles that are included with this RPG, and if that's why they come (the depth of the game), even this really gate stream of improvement still has to be more interesting than all of the other games, especially which are free.
Pay to win would be handing over a large amount of cash to CCP to be able to march into nulsec and evict goons from every system they owned. Or buying up every single commodity in Jita and hitting the trash it button. Buying 1000 titans, paying 1000 titsn pilots to hellcamp pandemic legion and wipe out there entire supercap fleet.
One character with 100m - 200m sp a trillion isk and officer fit tengu is no more going to win EVE than Bill Gates can claim to have won the human race.
I'll define pay 2 win. Pay 2 win is having the resources at your disposal to beat any other player at any task regardless of their ability. If CCP were selling a invulnerable titan with instant recharge doomsdays that could oneshot anything in game and go to hisec, thats an example of pay 2 win.
There is no pay 2 win, some solo rambo god mode isn't going to destroy the goons, pandemic or break the entire trading system and end up with all the resources and isk. They aren't even going to win every pvp encounter.
Pay 2 win doesn't exist in EVE because its you vs the rest of the playerbase.
As for the newbs are useless argument, that's the learning curve not the sp limit. I have a new character, i was running level 4's and clocked 200m in an afternoon with less than 1.2m sp because i've done those missions so many times and know how to fit with eft, triggers and so on. I could have 5m sp injected but go wading into AE bonus room in a armor tanked golem with light missiles and lose my ship. i could lose a faction fit tengu vs a t1 neut boat...this won't do a thing to help newbros because having max sp doesnt give them any knowledge of how to fit ships, how to tank properly, or any of the other game mechanics that take months and sometimes years to learn.
The only difference putting a newbro in a t2 fit ship vs t1 is he's going to sit in it for 60 seconds longer before it blows up and he'll get a bigger bill to replace it.
|
Dave Stark
7602
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:06:17 -
[3263] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).
Except once again you ignored the fact that market with an entry level of 1-2 plexes will see a lot of customers that would not consider spending 20 or more plexes on the character bazaar. That market is targeted towards completely different audience. And for everyone following the thread its clear that you ignored this detail deliberately.
what are you talking about?
you don't spend plex in the bazaar, you spend isk. |
Atara
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:07:17 -
[3264] - Quote
More erosion of the principles and foundation to what made this game great. This generation of devs is removing what made eve great. Sad but it won't stop.
Terrible idea. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4195
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:07:31 -
[3265] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).
Except once again you ignored the fact that market with an entry level of 1-2 plexes will see a lot of customers that would not consider spending 20 or more plexes on the character bazaar. That market is targeted towards completely different audience. And for everyone following the thread its clear that you ignored this detail deliberately. what are you talking about? Indeed
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
117
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:09:36 -
[3266] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).
Except once again you ignored the fact that market with an entry level of 1-2 plexes will see a lot of customers that would not consider spending 20 or more plexes on the character bazaar. That market is targeted towards completely different audience. And for everyone following the thread its clear that you ignored this detail deliberately. what are you talking about? you don't spend plex in the bazaar, you spend isk.
Which for a lot of players, new especially, equals selling plex to get the isk. Again you understand this very well, but choose to ignore. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:09:45 -
[3267] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Another aspect is that we don't know how much we are going to have to pay to purchase these nueral extractors. Veteren players are going to be purchasing PLEX to convert to aurum to purcahse them, so for any increase in supply there will also be an direct increase in demand. So how about telling CCP that they should not be charging AUR for this service, but ISK? After all, we pay ISK for jump clones and the like. So why the heck not for this as well?
It sure would male lore sense, and if the AUR cost is what could put upward pressure on PLEX, then removing this would mean only the downward pressure on PLEX is left.
So newbies get to skill up faster, vets get to PLEX their account easier, all are happy? |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:11:07 -
[3268] - Quote
Etara Silverblade wrote:As many have said, this sounds like a bad joke and I can't believe the CSM isn't fighting this loudly and publicly. Any CSM that hasn't come out against this already is not going to get my vote next election.
I am against character sales and anyone who buys characters is just looking for an easy win and doesn't actually like the game for what it is. They are second class citizens and CCP should not promote it or any other form of payment for skill points. If they are in need of money then they should raise the subscription price because I'd rather pay more and know my skill points are worth something.
Skill points are a reward for loyalty to the game and now CCP wants to cash in on the loyalty or lack of loyalty of some players. There is no much need in that because many players speaking for themselves in this thread. But still agree with you about representing pesonal reasons(not feelings) by CSMs.
I'm not looking for easy win but for a faster way with effort from my side with in-game activity. Earn some isks and invest them into SP. It's much better than waiting while my skill training.
When feature will be implemented then you will find out how much your skill points are worth. |
Dave Stark
7602
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:11:44 -
[3269] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).
Except once again you ignored the fact that market with an entry level of 1-2 plexes will see a lot of customers that would not consider spending 20 or more plexes on the character bazaar. That market is targeted towards completely different audience. And for everyone following the thread its clear that you ignored this detail deliberately. what are you talking about? you don't spend plex in the bazaar, you spend isk. Which for a lot of players, new especially, equals selling plex to get the isk. Again you understand this very well but choose to ignore.
how people fund their SP purchases has no relation to what the current cost of facilitating the transfer of SP between two accounts.
it doesn't matter if people buy their characters by selling jelly beans instead of plex. it still costs 2 plex for an assumed average transfer of 50m SP, leading to the extrapolated extractor price of 24m/unit.
besides, the transfer fee is paid by the seller not the buyer. in both systems. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9312
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:12:07 -
[3270] - Quote
Atara wrote:More erosion of the principles and foundation to what made this game great. This generation of devs is removing what made eve great. Sad but it won't stop.
Terrible idea. LOL!
This must be a really important issue for a 2004 character to drag themselves to the forum for their first post ever.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
|
Dave Stark
7602
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:13:16 -
[3271] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Atara wrote:More erosion of the principles and foundation to what made this game great. This generation of devs is removing what made eve great. Sad but it won't stop.
Terrible idea. LOL! This must be a really important issue for a 2004 character to drag themselves to the forum for their first post ever. Mr Epeen
maybe they missed the thread about introducing the character bazaar and they've been waiting patiently for the last 11 years? |
Dave Stark
7602
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:14:39 -
[3272] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Another aspect is that we don't know how much we are going to have to pay to purchase these nueral extractors. Veteren players are going to be purchasing PLEX to convert to aurum to purcahse them, so for any increase in supply there will also be an direct increase in demand. So how about telling CCP that they should not be charging AUR for this service, but ISK? After all, we pay ISK for jump clones and the like. So why the heck not for this as well? It sure would male lore sense, and if the AUR cost is what could put upward pressure on PLEX, then removing this would mean only the downward pressure on PLEX is left. So newbies get to skill up faster, vets get to PLEX their account easier, all are happy?
if they decide not to make extractors available for aur, i think LP would be a better source than isk. they'd make a nice replacement for learning implants as something for mission runners to purchase, imo. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:18:51 -
[3273] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:if they decide not to make extractors available for aur, i think LP would be a better source than isk. they'd make a nice replacement for learning implants as something for mission runners to purchase, imo. I like that idea a lot. It gives LP a new and relevant role, and makes mission running more attractive. |
Dave Stark
7603
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:20:32 -
[3274] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Dave Stark wrote:if they decide not to make extractors available for aur, i think LP would be a better source than isk. they'd make a nice replacement for learning implants as something for mission runners to purchase, imo. I like that idea a lot. It gives LP a new and relevant role, and makes mission running more attractive.
and solve's ccp's problem of "lots of mission runners use learning implants to cash out their LP" which has been one of their barriers to overhauling the attribute system. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
117
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:23:05 -
[3275] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).
Except once again you ignored the fact that market with an entry level of 1-2 plexes will see a lot of customers that would not consider spending 20 or more plexes on the character bazaar. That market is targeted towards completely different audience. And for everyone following the thread its clear that you ignored this detail deliberately. what are you talking about? you don't spend plex in the bazaar, you spend isk. Which for a lot of players, new especially, equals selling plex to get the isk. Again you understand this very well but choose to ignore. how people fund their SP purchases has no relation to what the current cost of facilitating the transfer of SP between two accounts. it doesn't matter if people buy their characters by selling jelly beans instead of plex. it still costs 2 plex for an assumed average transfer of 50m SP, leading to the extrapolated extractor price of 24m/unit. besides, the transfer fee is paid by the seller not the buyer. in both systems.
GÇ£how people fund their SP purchasesGÇ¥ is directly related to what kind of audience this new mechanism is targeted, and in turn directly related to what kind of price CCP might ask for that micro-transfers (while keeping the customers queue flowing).
We both know you understands this well. We both know you resolve to noise at this point. So I will let this short exchange for other to judge. It demonstrates pretty well your intentions in this thread. |
Dave Stark
7603
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:26:07 -
[3276] - Quote
Delegate wrote:GÇ£how people fund their SP purchasesGÇ¥ is directly related to what kind of audience this new mechanism is targeted, and in turn directly related to what kind of price CCP might ask for that micro-transfer (while keeping the customers queue flowing).
considering the cost of transferring SP isn't paid buy the "target audience", i once again ask; what the hell are you blithering about? |
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
311
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:26:23 -
[3277] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote: I do not think Eve is fair, never have. But I do not like encouraging a divide based on wealth anymore than what already exists in the game. I don't have skin directly in this, I just topped 125 mill and I do not do 'alts'. This is not about me but about the perception of the game from outside, from people coming in and from those who might leave.
I understand the concern about these new skill points but why should wealth and skill points be a divide? A person can pay trillions for Transneural Skill Extractors but does that actually make them a better player? Surely charisma, length of game time, the ability to make something happen, prowess in combat is what separates the homo sapiens from the insects? |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
117
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:32:03 -
[3278] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:GÇ£how people fund their SP purchasesGÇ¥ is directly related to what kind of audience this new mechanism is targeted, and in turn directly related to what kind of price CCP might ask for that micro-transfer (while keeping the customers queue flowing). considering the cost of transferring SP isn't paid buy the "target audience", i once again ask; what the hell are you blithering about?
It is, because they pay the seller for the SP and his costs. Tell me, how far you you will go with the noise, unashamed? |
BirdStrike
State War Academy Caldari State
74
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:32:20 -
[3279] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Another aspect is that we don't know how much we are going to have to pay to purchase these nueral extractors. Veteren players are going to be purchasing PLEX to convert to aurum to purcahse them, so for any increase in supply there will also be an direct increase in demand. So how about telling CCP that they should not be charging AUR for this service, but ISK? After all, we pay ISK for jump clones and the like. So why the heck not for this as well? It sure would male lore sense, and if the AUR cost is what could put upward pressure on PLEX, then removing this would mean only the downward pressure on PLEX is left. So newbies get to skill up faster, vets get to PLEX their account easier, all are happy?
I think you missed the point that CCP's interest is in creating new revenue selling AUR for real life money. They figured out gold monocles weren't likely to be a big seller after they abandoned the complexity of walking in stations, so they looked for the biggest pain point complaint from players and figured out how to monetarise it.
If you think they're going to give you this sort of feature in return for shooting triangles then you've missed the whole reason CCP introduced AUR in the first place, to empty your wallet. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:33:41 -
[3280] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).
Except once again you ignored the fact that market with an entry level of 1-2 plexes will see a lot of customers that would not consider spending 20 or more plexes on the character bazaar. That market is targeted towards completely different audience. And for everyone following the thread its clear that you ignored this detail deliberately. what are you talking about? Indeed
Baaaa |
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Dave stark
7604
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:35:31 -
[3281] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:GÇ£how people fund their SP purchasesGÇ¥ is directly related to what kind of audience this new mechanism is targeted, and in turn directly related to what kind of price CCP might ask for that micro-transfer (while keeping the customers queue flowing). considering the cost of transferring SP isn't paid buy the "target audience", i once again ask; what the hell are you blithering about? It is, because they pay the seller for the SP and his costs. Tell me, how far you you will go with the noise, unashamed?
no, they don't pay it. the cost is simply passed on to them.
regardless i still haven't got a clue what you're talking about. the way people generate the revenue to buy and sell SP has nothing to do with how much the transfer fee costs. you're literally just posting ******** replies because you see my name on the left. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
120
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:38:11 -
[3282] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:GÇ£how people fund their SP purchasesGÇ¥ is directly related to what kind of audience this new mechanism is targeted, and in turn directly related to what kind of price CCP might ask for that micro-transfer (while keeping the customers queue flowing). considering the cost of transferring SP isn't paid buy the "target audience", i once again ask; what the hell are you blithering about? It is, because they pay the seller for the SP and his costs. Tell me, how far you you will go with the noise, unashamed? no, they don't pay it. the cost is simply passed on to them.
Right, this answers my previous question. You're willing to go pretty far.
|
Dave Stark
7604
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:39:27 -
[3283] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:GÇ£how people fund their SP purchasesGÇ¥ is directly related to what kind of audience this new mechanism is targeted, and in turn directly related to what kind of price CCP might ask for that micro-transfer (while keeping the customers queue flowing). considering the cost of transferring SP isn't paid buy the "target audience", i once again ask; what the hell are you blithering about? It is, because they pay the seller for the SP and his costs. Tell me, how far you you will go with the noise, unashamed? no, they don't pay it. the cost is simply passed on to them. Right, this answers my previous question. You're willing to go pretty far.
i see, no correction to the maths i presented. you're just posting for the sake of it.
had you had a legitimate point, you could have made it half a page ago. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:46:17 -
[3284] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:however BIG ASS DISCLAIMER - THESE NUMBERS ARE PULLED OUT OF THIN AIR. meh, they sound reasonable to me yeah, but you know that some one will come back later and said "you said they're only gonna be 24m!!!! but yeah i don't expect them to be that much, especially since if people want newer players to use them they are going to have to be accessible on a new player's income. which, at current plex prices they aren't. as far as tweaking numbers goes - i think slashing everything by 90% would go a long way to helping. 300m is a lot to a new player, 30m isn't. a new player looks at 300m and says "i'll never afford that" vs 30m and say "****, my caracal cost me that much after i fit it and filled it with ammo, that's fairly cheap".
This whole bit here about newbro's being able to afford 30m as oppposed to 300m, isnt this just the extractor price your quoting on this figure though ..... empty what about the skillpoint cost ??? |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
122
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:47:43 -
[3285] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:had you had a legitimate point, you could have made it half a page ago.
Yes I made it.
Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).
Except once again you ignored the fact that a market with an entry level of 1-2 plexes will see a lot of customers that would not consider spending 20 or more plexes on the character bazaar. That market is targeted towards completely different audience. And for everyone following the thread its clear that you ignored this detail deliberately.
CCP is creating a new market on which it can ask substantially higher transfer price than on the bazaar. And it will have bazaar revenue unchanged, plus a new revenues stream from micro-transfers.
You understand this very well. But you are now at the point where: "they don't pay it. the cost is simply passed on to them."** In other words there is no point discussing with you.
** (TM) Dave Stark, all right reserved. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
103
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:49:28 -
[3286] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:a short term cynical cash grab. it's no more of a cash grab than we already have. you either buy a character - or you buy SP packets. you won't do both. it's not a new cash grab you're just moving from character transfer revenue to skill extractor/aur revenue. Either you're a Dev alt or someone is offering you something to do this. Which is it? nobody has to offer me anything to state a fact. the joy of knowing some one's incorrect argument fell apart because of it is payment enough.
Then I should be the happiest person on this planet after "discussion" with you and others. Btw, have you managed to read wots i wrote yet?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7604
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:50:08 -
[3287] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:had you had a legitimate point, you could have made it half a page ago. Yes I made it. Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).
Except once again you ignored the fact that a market with an entry level of 1-2 plexes will see a lot of customers that would not consider spending 20 or more plexes on the character bazaar. That market is targeted towards completely different audience. And for everyone following the thread its clear that you ignored this detail deliberately. CCP is creating a new market on which it can ask substantially higher transfer price than on bazaar. And have bazaar revenue unchanged plus a new revenues stream from micro-transfers. You understand this very well. But you are now at the point where: "they don't pay it. the cost is simply passed on to them." In other words there is no point discussing with you.
i'm not ignoring that fact at all. that fact means nothing. the only data points we have to extrapolate a price for TSEs from is the current transfer cost from the character bazzar.
using that single data point and the most appropriate assumption (maintaining the status quo), we arrive at the figure 24m.
nothing has been ignored. |
Dave Stark
7604
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:51:24 -
[3288] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:a short term cynical cash grab. it's no more of a cash grab than we already have. you either buy a character - or you buy SP packets. you won't do both. it's not a new cash grab you're just moving from character transfer revenue to skill extractor/aur revenue. Either you're a Dev alt or someone is offering you something to do this. Which is it? nobody has to offer me anything to state a fact. the joy of knowing some one's incorrect argument fell apart because of it is payment enough. Then I should be the happiest person on this planet after "discussion" with you and others. Btw, have you managed to read wots i wrote yet?
i got through 1 of the 3 pages then you went off on a tangent about something completely unrelated to the topic so yeah, i read that first page then replied, then you replied, and we've actually finished talking about your text based self pleasuring about 20 or so pages ago. |
Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
45
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:57:27 -
[3289] - Quote
Atara wrote:More erosion of the principles and foundation to what made this game great. This generation of devs is removing what made eve great. Sad but it won't stop.
Terrible idea.
When you stand on the shoulders of Giants its easy to take the view for granted...
Until you fall and have no way to reclaim what you lost in your descent into obscurity...
Then it seems good to break all the rules the founders gave you that allowed you to prosper...
In the end everything that was once unique and inspiring is gone and there is no one left to blame and no one that even cares anyway as the buzzards pick the carcass of a once great titan of imagination.
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
5845
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:07:09 -
[3290] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:how people fund their SP purchases has no relation to what the current cost of facilitating the transfer of SP between two accounts.
it doesn't matter if people buy their characters by selling jelly beans instead of plex.
How people fund purchases within the game is entirely relevant to CCP as a business. Using jelly beans to fund purchases earns CCP no extra income, but does earn CCP extra costs in terms of the time taken to ban accounts of players engaging in RMT. Using PLEX to fund purchases earns CCP $7/month extra income over the $10/month that a subscriber would otherwise have paid for that month of game time.
Thus converting from a 20 PLEX transaction for an entire character with SP allocated into particular skills, into a bunch of 2 PLEX transactions for raw SP is also entirely relevant to people concerned about CCP's future financial viability.
CCP has positioned EVE Online as a Premium Subscription MMO. If EVE Online does not maintain its cachet as the most expensive MMO to play, it can no longer maintain its claim to be a Premium offering. As such it is important to CCP to maintain the SP/skills system, and encourage new players to spend money in the process of attempting to catch up with veteran players who have characters with hundreds of SP.
Foolish discussions of removing skills entirely in order to make the game more accessible to new players completely ignore the need for CCP to maintain the status of the game as a Premium offering in a market where some games are attracting tens of thousands of dollars a year from players desperate to buy advantage or status.
The SP transfer system with its "diminishing returns" design is an excellent way for CCP to break into the "whale" market prevalent in the Free-To-Play/Pay-To-Win genre that CCP wishes to pivot EVE into.
Day 0 Advice for New Players
|
|
Dave Stark
7605
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:09:40 -
[3291] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Dave Stark wrote:how people fund their SP purchases has no relation to what the current cost of facilitating the transfer of SP between two accounts.
it doesn't matter if people buy their characters by selling jelly beans instead of plex. How people fund purchases within the game is entirely relevant to CCP as a business. Using jelly beans to fund purchases earns CCP no extra income, but does earn CCP extra costs in terms of the time taken to ban accounts of players engaging in RMT. Using PLEX to fund purchases earns CCP $7/month extra income over the $10/month that a subscriber would otherwise have paid for that month of game time. Thus converting from a 20 PLEX transaction for an entire character with SP allocated into particular skills, into a bunch of 2 PLEX transactions for raw SP is also entirely relevant to people concerned about CCP's future financial viability. CCP has positioned EVE Online as a Premium Subscription MMO. If EVE Online does not maintain its cachet as the most expensive MMO to play, it can no longer maintain its claim to be a Premium offering. As such it is important to CCP to maintain the SP/skills system, and encourage new players to spend money in the process of attempting to catch up with veteran players who have characters with hundreds of SP. Foolish discussions of removing skills entirely in order to make the game more accessible to new players completely ignore the need for CCP to maintain the status of the game as a Premium offering in a market where some games are attracting tens of thousands of dollars a year from players desperate to buy advantage or status. The SP transfer system with its "diminishing returns" design is an excellent way for CCP to break into the "whale" market prevalent in the Free-To-Play/Pay-To-Win genre that CCP wishes to pivot EVE into.
I'm aware of that. and yet none of it relates to the potential isk price of TSEs. which is what we were discussing. we were having a guess at the isk price of a TSE and then that guy came along screaming i was intentionally ignoring stuff. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
103
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:12:27 -
[3292] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:to be fair, i think this thread is done now. for the last like 150 pages there has been 0 discussion of the devblog as people have had to have basic and irrelevant concepts explaining to them.
Actually there have been plenty of solid concerns and side effects. And sh*tload of trolling done by you and couple more. Wish CCP had actually tried to improve the forums. Or they are doing it in the same way they are doing it for the game :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7605
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:14:36 -
[3293] - Quote
I'm going to make a better argument against this new proposal than has been seen in the first 165 pages of this thread.
you can use this system to "bypass" prerequisites for ships. you can train the prerequisites for say, command ships, then extract all the leadership SP and still fly them.
there needs to be a check to ensure that you cannot extract sp from skills where you have trained something that requires the skill you are trying to extract. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
27
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:14:59 -
[3294] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Dave Stark wrote:how people fund their SP purchases has no relation to what the current cost of facilitating the transfer of SP between two accounts.
it doesn't matter if people buy their characters by selling jelly beans instead of plex. How people fund purchases within the game is entirely relevant to CCP as a business. Using jelly beans to fund purchases earns CCP no extra income, but does earn CCP extra costs in terms of the time taken to ban accounts of players engaging in RMT. Using PLEX to fund purchases earns CCP $7/month extra income over the $10/month that a subscriber would otherwise have paid for that month of game time. Thus converting from a 20 PLEX transaction for an entire character with SP allocated into particular skills, into a bunch of 2 PLEX transactions for raw SP is also entirely relevant to people concerned about CCP's future financial viability. CCP has positioned EVE Online as a Premium Subscription MMO. If EVE Online does not maintain its cachet as the most expensive MMO to play, it can no longer maintain its claim to be a Premium offering. As such it is important to CCP to maintain the SP/skills system, and encourage new players to spend money in the process of attempting to catch up with veteran players who have characters with hundreds of SP. Foolish discussions of removing skills entirely in order to make the game more accessible to new players completely ignore the need for CCP to maintain the status of the game as a Premium offering in a market where some games are attracting tens of thousands of dollars a year from players desperate to buy advantage or status. The SP transfer system with its "diminishing returns" design is an excellent way for CCP to break into the "whale" market prevalent in the Free-To-Play/Pay-To-Win genre that CCP wishes to pivot EVE into. I'm aware of that. and yet none of it relates to the potential isk price of TSEs. which is what we were discussing. we were having a guess at the isk price of a TSE and then that guy came along screaming i was intentionally ignoring stuff.
When that extractor is filled though its looking more likely to cost 550 to 600m seeing as you seems to have forgotten the actual toon being sold in the bazaar - unless your offering to sell filled ones to folks for 30m as the 300 seemed to high for newbro's |
Dave Stark
7605
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:15:28 -
[3295] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:to be fair, i think this thread is done now. for the last like 150 pages there has been 0 discussion of the devblog as people have had to have basic and irrelevant concepts explaining to them. Actually there have been plenty of solid concerns and side effects. And sh*tload of trolling done by you and couple more. Wish CCP had actually tried to improve the forums. Or they are doing it in the same way they are doing it for the game :D Edit: no 5 in forum rules is that trolling is prohibited. I understand that there is quite a work here with 160 pages of text but if mods have checked it earlier they could have easily stopped it. So, mods please do your work.
mate, i just posted a better argument against this idea than anyone has done so far. i'm not even against it. you guys need to get yourselves together. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
123
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:23:28 -
[3296] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:I'm going to make a better argument against this new proposal than has been seen in the first 165 pages of this thread.
you can use this system to "bypass" prerequisites for ships. you can train the prerequisites for say, command ships, then extract all the leadership SP and still fly them.
there needs to be a check to ensure that you cannot extract sp from skills where you have trained something that requires the skill you are trying to extract.
Man, really, I have no words for what your're doing in this thread.
CCP Terminus wrote:The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare. We also plan on having this be something you can only do in stations, so you wouldn't be stuck in in space in a ship you can no longer fly.
|
Dave Stark
7605
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:23:36 -
[3297] - Quote
BirdStrike wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I'm going to make a better argument against this new proposal than has been seen in the first 165 pages of this thread.
you can use this system to "bypass" prerequisites for ships. you can train the prerequisites for say, command ships, then extract all the leadership SP and still fly them.
there needs to be a check to ensure that you cannot extract sp from skills where you have trained something that requires the skill you are trying to extract. Its already there, look up the dependency requirements for any skill. It lists the pre-requisite skill tree you need to unlock to train those skills with ticks for ones you meet. There are lots of examples where you need more than one skill to use a given/ship module so its trivial for CCP to simply invalidate that skill if you remove the underlying dependency.
yep, some one just pointed me to it. |
Dave Stark
7605
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:24:23 -
[3298] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I'm going to make a better argument against this new proposal than has been seen in the first 165 pages of this thread.
you can use this system to "bypass" prerequisites for ships. you can train the prerequisites for say, command ships, then extract all the leadership SP and still fly them.
there needs to be a check to ensure that you cannot extract sp from skills where you have trained something that requires the skill you are trying to extract. Man, really, I have no words for what your're doing in this thread. CCP Terminus wrote:The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare. We also plan on having this be something you can only do in stations, so you wouldn't be stuck in in space in a ship you can no longer fly.
yeah, just seen that. not sure how i missed it the other day.
then again the only decent argument against this idea just vanished, *shrug* |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
123
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:25:28 -
[3299] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:yeah, just seen that. not sure how i missed it the other day.
I very much doubt you missed it.
|
Dave Stark
7605
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:26:00 -
[3300] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Then he can sanction you in accordance to forum rules.
pointing out that you're wrong isn't against the forum rules. |
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Dave Stark
7605
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:29:59 -
[3301] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:yeah, just seen that. not sure how i missed it the other day. I very much doubt you missed it.
well clearly i did. not quite sure how you can doubt something that's that obviously true. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
210
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:31:34 -
[3302] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:BirdStrike wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I'm going to make a better argument against this new proposal than has been seen in the first 165 pages of this thread.
you can use this system to "bypass" prerequisites for ships. you can train the prerequisites for say, command ships, then extract all the leadership SP and still fly them.
there needs to be a check to ensure that you cannot extract sp from skills where you have trained something that requires the skill you are trying to extract. Its already there, look up the dependency requirements for any skill. It lists the pre-requisite skill tree you need to unlock to train those skills with ticks for ones you meet. There are lots of examples where you need more than one skill to use a given/ship module so its trivial for CCP to simply invalidate that skill if you remove the underlying dependency. yep, some one just pointed me to it. Were you not spamming the forum telling everyone that they haven't read or understood the devblog and shouldn't post unitl they do?.....
Ever occur to you to take your own advice? You clearly haven't thought about this as thoroughly as you seem to think.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
123
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:33:01 -
[3303] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:yeah, just seen that. not sure how i missed it the other day. I very much doubt you missed it. well clearly i did. not quite sure how you can doubt something that's that obviously true.
I very much doubt it, because I believe you are here for noise.
|
Dave Stark
7605
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:33:10 -
[3304] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:BirdStrike wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I'm going to make a better argument against this new proposal than has been seen in the first 165 pages of this thread.
you can use this system to "bypass" prerequisites for ships. you can train the prerequisites for say, command ships, then extract all the leadership SP and still fly them.
there needs to be a check to ensure that you cannot extract sp from skills where you have trained something that requires the skill you are trying to extract. Its already there, look up the dependency requirements for any skill. It lists the pre-requisite skill tree you need to unlock to train those skills with ticks for ones you meet. There are lots of examples where you need more than one skill to use a given/ship module so its trivial for CCP to simply invalidate that skill if you remove the underlying dependency. yep, some one just pointed me to it. Were you not spamming the forum telling everyone that they haven't read or understood the devblog and shouldn't post unitl they do?...
no, i was telling them if they'd have read the devblog they wouldn't need to ask me questions that had already been explained there.
what i didn't know, i didn't know because it WASN'T part of the devblog, it was a dev post. one that somehow i hadn't seen. i'd seen the prior and later dev posts but not that one. it must have been posted during the night, i assume. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
105
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:33:57 -
[3305] - Quote
Public Relation wrote:BirdStrike wrote:Public Relation wrote:General Lootit wrote:Public Relation wrote: Worse then skill point trading are Plex. For someone with enough money, Plex = instant unlimited amount of isk, if you are bright enough you will understand the full consequence for any parties in EvE to have access to unlimited ressources with absolutly no risk.
Only because someone wont or can't earn isk we can have free sub. When someone dumping PLEXes into the game market price droping which also beneficial for players. I am not debating the right or wrong of plex, i am just stating that EvE have already been prone to the so call "pay to win" syndrome with plex and character bazar. Skill point trading is nothing worse or better, it wont change nothing in the end regarding "pay to win"... But like the dev have stated it will help new player retention and thats the great thing about it. Also my opinion on the subject of "pay to win" is simple, isk or skill point wont make you win fight, so no there is no "pay to win" only "pay to get what you want faster". If SP doesn't make you win a fight then there is no need to implement the system or the character bazaar then is there? Its a strawman to say you want injectable SP yet more SP doesn't help you win anything, otherwise you'd be out pwning the galaxy in your bantam with civilian gatling. Good luck however trying to remove point from a brick tanked near 1m SP damnation with your 30dps, I'm pretty sure your out of game epeen doesn't actual help with that. All this can be also done with time playing the game. There is nothing a playing can buy that someone cannot get playing the game normaly. Pay to win is when someone can get an unavailable advantage without paying for it. Player skill > character skill, that cannot be bought. I have seen player beat T2 ship with combat bonuses ship using a T1 ship with no combat bonuses, 1v1.
There is. They cannot overtake top players. Already mentioned numerous time. But since you are in Dave`s club, with totally same posting attitude, I am not surprised you say it :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7605
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:35:52 -
[3306] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:There is. They cannot overtake top players. Already mentioned numerous time. But since you are in Dave`s club, with totally same posting attitude, I am not surprised you say it :)
if I have a club, does that mean I'm allowed to get T-shirts printed? |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
106
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:36:39 -
[3307] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:So I read an article on the internet and it said something along the lines of, anyone who is against this change is really just projecting their emotional insecurities and are letting their irrationalities manifest themselves because they as people have zero self-control.
But it's OK, because we, the deciders, understand you're incapable of logical thought so we know to just ignore the things you say and write your name down on The List.
Great change CCP, way to take the initiative in saving EvE.
If you keep just repeating it is a great thing it wont really make it so. You are just one of the purest trolls here, since you have nor provided any arguments, other at least try to manipulate with them.
If players are deciders, then make ingame referendum and see what the players choose. Your spam will not decide on it.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Terraj Oknatis
xX-Crusader-Xx Tactical Narcotics Team
29
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:37:13 -
[3308] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Terraj Oknatis wrote:Thank you for your insight. Those are some really good points you are making. If i was going to give you a suggestion, Don't wait for stealth V to get out there and explore your wormholes. You have so much to gain by just going in there in a t1 exploration frig and running the sites. If you get blown up you will loose 1-2 mil a ship. However if you succeed you could be pulling down anywhere from 5-10mil a site! Thanks. It's a bit off topic, but I was in a worm hole the next day after doing the exploration career mission as a total newbie. It was a very quiet wormhole, and I got chased off only by NPCs. I think a pure worm hole explorer (dipping in and out from high sec) would kind of work with a T1 frigate, but you would still have to train Arch and Hack to at least IV - preferably V, to get T2 data/relic analysers. You need better virus strength and coherence to crack the difficult sites consistently... But as explorer I don't want to just do the worm holes. To a large extent I want to use the worm holes as safe gate to null and low sec. And if you want to travel null and low sec for any length of time, sitting in a T1 explorer frigate (filled with all the loot you have gathered) is basically suicide. I also think of future "stealth combat" roles I might want to play in a corp, perhaps scouting or covert cyno or stealth bomber PVP... To get the necessary experience with this, you actually want to roam widely as cov ops, not just "explore and run back to high sec". And if you want to play around with combat probes, then it will be difficult to fit the expanded launcher with T1 frigate CPU. Terraj Oknatis wrote:so STAB UP and get in there and start making some isk! Chances are if your going to sp boost your character you will be draining a lot of isk/rl money on the skill points, but then you still have to buy the ships! Because your inexperienced you won't be checking D scan like you should and you will be loosing T2/asteros instead of a magnate. One of the reasons why I am training for a T2 cov ops rather than an Astero is the price point. I expect I can get a T2 cov ops for about 30M ISK, including decent but cheap fittings. I can die 2-3 times more often in that than in an Astero at the same cost. One problem is that one needs scan strength at about 110 for the sleeper sites (I can get limited ones with 105, but not the better kinds). Buying SoE launchers helps, but bumps up the cost massively... The alternative is once more skill training: getting Cov Ops and Astrometrics to V gives 75 bonus...
Good points. Have you tried rigs? There are cheap astronomic rigs that will boost that scan res. There are also ones that boost your virus strength. I would say rig up for scan strength and relic analyzers. I can consistently do null sec relic sites and I have terrible hacking skills. My hacking skills are at level 3 but because I have those rigs, it allows me to do them without having T2 analyzers. Eventually the level 5 skills will come in time.
For level 5 skills. Just go for frig V first. It may seem like a long train but 5 days in you will see it is only 10 days and it won't be that bad. Before you know it you can use a T2 scan frig.
I get your point on null sec. Because there is local it will be hard for a independent pilot to move around. However, you can always head down to provi block. There it is common policy to not shoot at neutrals.
This sub thread is not off topic because it is an example of the fact that you don't need high skills to find content. You just need high skills to make content more efficient. Therefore there is no need for these shenanigans.
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:37:28 -
[3309] - Quote
Etara Silverblade wrote:General Lootit wrote:When feature will be implemented then you will find out how much your skill points are worth. Right now my skillpoints are priceless and putting a price on them cheapens my loyalty to the game and the time I spent getting those skill points. Right now time in game equals skill points and after this is in, money will equal skill points. It's that simple and I will have none of it. Not only RL money but isks too. Actually you will have a choice put in-game activity and earning isk with it, wait until skills are trained or pay RL money for PLEX and sell it on market to buy SP injectors. So you may continue waiting train time if don't want to pay with isks or with money. |
Luscius Uta
172
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:38:16 -
[3310] - Quote
tl;dr of this dev blog:
You'll be able to trade ISK for SP.
So nothing that you couldn't do on Character Bazaar before. Yet it somehow offends many of the bittervets, even people who I held in high regard, like Ripard Teg. Probably because conversion rates are basically useless for bittervets (I personally belong in >80M SP category as well but I shed no tears).
First thing, bittervets shouldn't be so greedy about their SP and could instead use this new feature to make new alts and quickly train them up.
Second thing,skill trading isn't going to turn EVE into a Pay2Win game...now, I wasn't around when PLEX was introduced, but I can bet on both my arms and legs that it caused a huge outrcy from people who did their best to convince everyone that PLEX is going to turn EVE into (another) Pay2Win, instant gratification game.
If there's one thing that I think it's bad for the future of EVE, that would be ever-rising PLEX prices. Why? Because they are driving new players away. When I started playing in 2011, PLEX was around 400 millions and grinding for enough ISK to PLEX your account was acceptable deal to much greater percentage of newer players than it is today. Of course, nobody ever had to grind for ISK, but "pay to play" MMOs are outdated and that concept isn't going to attract many new players.
So move along, nothing to see here.
Drifters have arrived - The End is nigh!
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Dave Stark
7605
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:39:55 -
[3311] - Quote
Luscius Uta wrote:tl;dr of this dev blog:
You'll be able to trade ISK for SP.
stop making noise, you're ignoring the facts. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1760
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:44:32 -
[3312] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Luscius Uta wrote:tl;dr of this dev blog:
You'll be able to trade ISK for SP. stop making noise, you're ignoring the facts.
That is the basic fact of the thread. Players will be able to pay ISK for SP from other players. Everything else around that is simply dressing it up. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
106
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:44:42 -
[3313] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Dave Stark wrote:[ it's no more of a cash grab than we already have.
you either buy a character - or you buy SP packets. you won't do both. it's not a new cash grab you're just moving from character transfer revenue to skill extractor/aur revenue. Either you're a Dev alt or someone is offering you something to do this. Which is it? nobody has to offer me anything to state a fact. the joy of knowing some one's incorrect argument fell apart because of it is payment enough. Then I should be the happiest person on this planet after "discussion" with you and others. Btw, have you managed to read wots i wrote yet? i got through 1 of the 3 pages then you went off on a tangent about something completely unrelated to the topic so yeah, i read that first page then replied, then you replied, and we've actually finished talking about your text based self pleasuring about 20 or so pages ago.
Thanks for admitting you did not read it. Gives a lot to your credibility ;)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Dave Stark
7605
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:45:43 -
[3314] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Thanks for admitting you did not read it. Gives a lot to your credibility ;)
uh, i just told you i read it? did you not read what i wrote?
i read the bit before you went on a complete and irrelevant tangent for 2 pages (i know that because i skimmed the other 2 pages to be sure). |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:47:02 -
[3315] - Quote
BirdStrike wrote:I'll define pay 2 win. Pay 2 win is having the resources at your disposal to beat any other player at any task regardless of their ability. If CCP were selling a invulnerable titan with instant recharge doomsdays that could oneshot anything in game and go to hisec, thats an example of pay 2 win. There is no game where it'd defined like that (because there is no game where that's a factor).
BirdStrike wrote:As for the newbs are useless argument, that's the learning curve not the sp limit. I have a new character, i was running level 4's and clocked 200m in an afternoon with less than 1.2m sp because i've done those missions so many times and know how to fit with eft, triggers and so on. I could have 5m sp injected but go wading into AE bonus room in a armor tanked golem with light missiles and lose my ship. i could lose a faction fit tengu vs a t1 neut boat...this won't do a thing to help newbros because having max sp doesnt give them any knowledge of how to fit ships, how to tank properly, or any of the other game mechanics that take months and sometimes years to learn.
If SP isn't a factor, how about removing it? It's plentifully established that the game can be learned much more efficiently than SP can train, and that honestly undermines interest and depth and strategy.
BirdStrike wrote:The irony of the newbro argument is the nosp newbros in karmafleet, horde and brave have probably done more pvp and understand eve combat mechanics better than countless 80m vets who've never left hisec. So the assumption that if you don't have the latest t2 doctrine you can't enjoy pvp is clearly disproven by the nulsec newbros. And like motor racing, nobody puts a learner in a f1 car because they'll break it, its better for players to learn to pvp in throaway frigs and cruisers so they have the skills to use the shiny kit when they get it. Is that why large sovereignties still hold their place? If they're only challenged with frigates, they get bored. That's shallow.
Quintessen wrote:I think the success of this entirely depends on how it's sold. CCP could sell this as a way for new characters to catch up even if its not realistic. While this is a unique aspect of EVE, that doesn't mean that it's to its benefit. I've been around for awhile and I keep seeing the same argument against this. SP doesn't make you good, player skill does. Well I think we've always known that wasn't quite 100% true. SP has an impact on play and it's something that a new pilot can never catch up on regardless of how much they play or how well they do.
That's to EVE's detriment.
If I go an tell any new player of a sport that there is something that they can never be as good at as someone else because they arrived later, then I'm telling a lot of them to not bother. In a competitive game like this, the idea that I can be the best of the best at everything is an enticement to play and get better even for people that will likely never be competitive at that level.
Frankly this was the last hurdle for EVE breaking out of its niche. It should be possible for anyone to start a new account and become the greatest pilot in every measurable way given sufficient effort.
Right now, a pilot can become the richest person in EVE. They can become the most influential. They can amass the most territory, but they cannot get the most SP. It's the last thing and it needs to go.
What's strange for me is that I started on the other side of this. I thought it was a bad idea. Though I still think it needs tweaking so that older characters like myself get even less or no benefit which should help with the demand side of things as well. But looking back on all the arguments of real or imagined advantages of older players, I keep seeing people being discouraged from playing at all. Be it tech 2 BPOs, SP or others. And as much as I wish it weren't so, perception is reality. And that perception has been hurting EVE for a long time.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9317
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:48:37 -
[3316] - Quote
Once this goes live I will be accepting SP pack donations for my Make Don ZOLA cry drive. The only thing he cares about is SP and I intend to acquire more than him.
I won't lie to you folks. I'm at under 60 k SP right now so it'll take some dedication on your part. But if we all pull together on this you will see forum rage as you never have before.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Sean Crees
Sean's Safe Haven
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:50:52 -
[3317] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Scott Ormands wrote:On one hand im excited to get back the 3m sp wasted in mining on a carrier toon, on the other what is to stop me from trainging a command ship and then extracting all the boosting skills, so to speak. in that way i could still fly the command ship but would have gotten my boosting skills transfered into some other skill or sold for isk. its a way to beat the prereq system for almost anything. The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare. We also plan on having this be something you can only do in stations, so you wouldn't be stuck in in space in a ship you can no longer fly.
How are you going to treat people that are currently in this state, where they have skills injected and trained but don't have the support skills for them? Is the server just going to keep track of each exception and allow that exception to continue but not allow new exceptions? Or will the pre-req skills be filled with the needed SP? Or will the skill stop working? |
Dave Stark
7605
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:51:58 -
[3318] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Once this goes live I will be accepting SP pack donations for my Make Don ZOLA cry drive. The only thing he cares about is SP and I intend to acquire more than him.
I won't lie to you folks. I'm at under 60 k SP right now so it'll take some dedication on your part. But if we all pull together on this you will see forum rage as you never have before.
Mr Epeen
he's in a win/win situation though.
either CCP won't add the system or it'll kill eve and we won't be able to donate to you :( |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
147
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:54:38 -
[3319] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: There is. They cannot overtake top players. Already mentioned numerous time. And you cannot increase sp on one char, you can just change the char. But since you are in Dave`s club, with totally same posting attitude, I am not surprised you say it :)
"Overtake" top players...? SP is a meaningless metric for assessing character power.
I know you have stated that you don't care about you position on some list with top SP players, but statements like the above proves otherwise. You have an interest in keeping this feature out of the game, since it would challenge your standing on this list.
While there have been some other valid arguments against the feature (the most valid being, people feeling SP boosting is a must). I still think the arguments supporting the implementation outweigh the ones against.
It is a valid concern, that new player could avoid EvE, because they get the impression that you need to invest X amount of IRL money in order to even do anything. However, given that the character bazaar already exists, I don't think this concern is too justified.
On the other hand, I personally have had difficulties convincing friends to start EvE, cause they don't like that they have to wait maybe a week or two before they feel viable. I've talked with them, regarding this proposed feature and their response is very positive.
They were most positive about the fact, that newbies will have an additional goal to work towards. Meaning, one more reason to actually undock and do something, instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked while the skill queue is running. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
107
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:55:37 -
[3320] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:to be fair, i think this thread is done now. for the last like 150 pages there has been 0 discussion of the devblog as people have had to have basic and irrelevant concepts explaining to them. Actually there have been plenty of solid concerns and side effects. And sh*tload of trolling done by you and couple more. Wish CCP had actually tried to improve the forums. Or they are doing it in the same way they are doing it for the game :D Edit: no 5 in forum rules is that trolling is prohibited. I understand that there is quite a work here with 160 pages of text but if mods have checked it earlier they could have easily stopped it. So, mods please do your work. mate, i just posted a better argument against this idea than anyone has done so far. i'm not even against it. you guys need to get yourselves together.
Weird way of not having anything against it, posting hundreds of post trying to challenge/manipulate those who are against it :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
107
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:57:01 -
[3321] - Quote
Luscius Uta wrote:tl;dr of this dev blog:
You'll be able to trade ISK for SP.
So nothing that you couldn't do on Character Bazaar before. Yet it somehow offends many of the bittervets, even people who I held in high regard, like Ripard Teg. Probably because conversion rates are basically useless for bittervets (I personally belong in >80M SP category as well but I shed no tears).
First thing, bittervets shouldn't be so greedy about their SP and could instead use this new feature to make new alts and quickly train them up.
Second thing,skill trading isn't going to turn EVE into a Pay2Win game...now, I wasn't around when PLEX was introduced, but I can bet on both my arms and legs that it caused a huge outrcy from people who did their best to convince everyone that PLEX is going to turn EVE into (another) Pay2Win, instant gratification game.
If there's one thing that I think it's bad for the future of EVE, that would be ever-rising PLEX prices. Why? Because they are driving new players away. When I started playing in 2011, PLEX was around 400 millions and grinding for enough ISK to PLEX your account was acceptable deal to much greater percentage of newer players than it is today. Of course, nobody ever had to grind for ISK, but "pay to play" MMOs are outdated and that concept isn't going to attract many new players.
So move along, nothing to see here.
Incorrect. You were able to buy characters with higher sp. You were not able to buy sp for a char. kktnxbye.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:57:58 -
[3322] - Quote
Sean Crees wrote: How are you going to treat people that are currently in this state, where they have skills injected and trained but don't have the support skills for them?
You can't put SP in it until all required skills are trained. I had some free SP when Vanguard came. |
Dave Stark
7606
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:58:28 -
[3323] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:to be fair, i think this thread is done now. for the last like 150 pages there has been 0 discussion of the devblog as people have had to have basic and irrelevant concepts explaining to them. Actually there have been plenty of solid concerns and side effects. And sh*tload of trolling done by you and couple more. Wish CCP had actually tried to improve the forums. Or they are doing it in the same way they are doing it for the game :D Edit: no 5 in forum rules is that trolling is prohibited. I understand that there is quite a work here with 160 pages of text but if mods have checked it earlier they could have easily stopped it. So, mods please do your work. mate, i just posted a better argument against this idea than anyone has done so far. i'm not even against it. you guys need to get yourselves together. Weird way of not having anything against it, posting hundreds of post trying to challenge/manipulate those who are against it :D
i'm not for or against it - trading SP already exists. if people are really that assblasted about CCP wanting to make it less obtuse then vOv.
we don't gain anything we haven't already got if they do add it, and if they do add it it just makes it less hassle for those that already do it.
i mainly came here to see why people were so negative about it on eve-o since everywhere else hasn't even been close to this level of negativity about it. after like 3 days i still haven't seen any real reasons why people would be that negative about it other than "they don't like it". |
Linc0ln Stern
Dark Dirty Rotten Scoundrel
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:00:06 -
[3324] - Quote
I don't generally post on forums but here it is, this is not a good move. There are some good things you guys at CCP have done. I applaud you for your hard work. Fozzie sov, hasn't been grand and here your about to make another mistake. you will continue with idea's like this and if you implement this your going to lose a large chunk of your loyal PAYING Players. I myself have 2 accounts which I have enjoyed this game for seven long years. Implement this and I and many like minded players will un subscribe. That is two pay accounts so that's 40 a month from one person not to mention the occasional plex I buy to boost for my pvp pleasure. Is money that easy to come by for any business? There are things that make this game what it is training mistakes are one of them, also career changes in the game. I'm sharing my feed back on saying no to mont'e hall. The next move is yours CCP. This is a very bad Idea. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
107
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:01:48 -
[3325] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Thanks for admitting you did not read it. Gives a lot to your credibility ;) uh, i just told you i read it? did you not read what i wrote? i read the bit before you went on a complete and irrelevant tangent for 2 pages (i know that because i skimmed the other 2 pages to be sure).
1 of 3? Irrelevant to the topic? Maybe for you this topic consists of only simple yes/no for this change. I have went much deeper and explained through whole business model. Since, you know, this is a business, which creates CCP A LOT of money. So pointing flaws this brings to that business is quite relevant and on topic. Skimmed does not equal read.
But no worries, I did not really expect from you to come with counter arguments for what I have wrote anyway :) Majority of us here already figured out your "play" :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Dave Stark
7606
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:01:52 -
[3326] - Quote
Linc0ln Stern wrote:PAYING Players.
funfact; everyone pays to play eve. it's a subscription game.
except a few bloggers, iirc there's a system where they get their subs paid for being awesome at that. |
Dave Stark
7606
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:02:39 -
[3327] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Thanks for admitting you did not read it. Gives a lot to your credibility ;) uh, i just told you i read it? did you not read what i wrote? i read the bit before you went on a complete and irrelevant tangent for 2 pages (i know that because i skimmed the other 2 pages to be sure). 1 of 3? Irrelevant to the topic? Maybe for you this topic consists of only simple yes/no for this change. I have went much deeper and explained through whole business model. Since, you know, this is a business, which creates CCP A LOT of money. So pointing flaws this brings to that business is quite relevant and on topic. Skimmed does not equal read. But no worries, I did not really expect from you to come with counter arguments for what I have wrote anyway :) Majority of us here already figured out your "play" :)
ccp's business model is irrelevant to the discussion. they want feedback on this idea, not how to manage their financials. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:04:47 -
[3328] - Quote
Sean Crees wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:Scott Ormands wrote:On one hand im excited to get back the 3m sp wasted in mining on a carrier toon, on the other what is to stop me from trainging a command ship and then extracting all the boosting skills, so to speak. in that way i could still fly the command ship but would have gotten my boosting skills transfered into some other skill or sold for isk. its a way to beat the prereq system for almost anything. The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare. We also plan on having this be something you can only do in stations, so you wouldn't be stuck in in space in a ship you can no longer fly. How are you going to treat people that are currently in this state, where they have skills injected and trained but don't have the support skills for them? Is the server just going to keep track of each exception and allow that exception to continue but not allow new exceptions? Or will the pre-req skills be filled with the needed SP? Or will the skill stop working? Why would there be any need to treat people with grandfathered skills any differently or exceptions to be tracked. If you don't have current prereqs then you can't extract SP from them as you don't have them, similarly if you did have current prereqs you wouldn't be able to extract SP from them as they were needed for a dependent skill. There is nothing to change or track either way.
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
107
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:05:30 -
[3329] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Once this goes live I will be accepting SP pack donations for my Make Don ZOLA cry drive. The only thing he cares about is SP and I intend to acquire more than him. I won't lie to you folks. I'm at under 60 k SP right now so it'll take some dedication on your part. But if we all pull together on this you will see forum rage as you never have before. Mr Epeen
You do not have to worry, Don ZOLA will either quit or remain inactive. If I have cared about SP only this would be great for me since I do have tons of isk and sp on alts I can use to boost my sp. So you are quite wrong :shocker:, like with everything you have posted here ;)
Trolling alts cannot make me cry :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Dave Stark
7606
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:10:47 -
[3330] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:because they actually see that a bazaar toon is nothing like raw skillpoints for cash being sold is an afront to what eve stood for originally, dont bother me either way i wont delete anything or sell it but if i find something now to replace it makes it alot easier to move over to than a world class MMO filling up with F2P shite rooking players left right and centre.
there have been bigger affronts to what eve stands for than buying and selling SP. |
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:11:55 -
[3331] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: They were most positive about the fact, that newbies will have an additional goal to work towards. Meaning, one more reason to actually undock and do something, instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked while the skill queue is running.
That my personal reason why I keeps supporting this idea. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:13:45 -
[3332] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:because what happens when you remove all the SP from astrogeology V, and then want to remove it from mining IV also?
if you remove SP from mining IV, and no longer train astrogeology? if so that'll affect grandfathered players. or, will you not be able to remove more SP from mining IV as it's a prerequisite for an injected skill? How would you remove the SP from Mining IV when you still have astrogeology? Unless astrogeology is removed extracting SP from mining that would lower it to under lvl IV should be impossible as stated since the prereqs state it's needed to inject the skill, whether chosing to train it or not. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
107
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:13:47 -
[3333] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:to be fair, i think this thread is done now. for the last like 150 pages there has been 0 discussion of the devblog as people have had to have basic and irrelevant concepts explaining to them. Actually there have been plenty of solid concerns and side effects. And sh*tload of trolling done by you and couple more. Wish CCP had actually tried to improve the forums. Or they are doing it in the same way they are doing it for the game :D Edit: no 5 in forum rules is that trolling is prohibited. I understand that there is quite a work here with 160 pages of text but if mods have checked it earlier they could have easily stopped it. So, mods please do your work. mate, i just posted a better argument against this idea than anyone has done so far. i'm not even against it. you guys need to get yourselves together. Weird way of not having anything against it, posting hundreds of post trying to challenge/manipulate those who are against it :D i'm not for or against it - trading SP already exists. if people are really that assblasted about CCP wanting to make it less obtuse then vOv. we don't gain anything we haven't already got if they do add it, and if they do add it it just makes it less hassle for those that already do it. i mainly came here to see why people were so negative about it on eve-o since everywhere else hasn't even been close to this level of negativity about it. after like 3 days i still haven't seen any real reasons why people would be that negative about it other than "they don't like it".
No, trading chars exist and guess what, it is different to trading sp. And that is what we gain, no matter how many times you repeat we dont ;)
Quite interesting, out of simple curiosity you have spent 3 days, hundreds of posts without contributing much to real discussion but simply manipulating and taking things out of the context, without even reading all and making noise about "no big deal". Wish i had so much free time to waste for something I do not care much about :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
33
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:15:12 -
[3334] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Maekchu wrote: They were most positive about the fact, that newbies will have an additional goal to work towards. Meaning, one more reason to actually undock and do something, instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked while the skill queue is running.
That my personal reason why I keeps supporting this idea.
Yeah thats it, 330m per 500,000 sp's ..... so wheres the newguy going to go to earn that oh yeah ill buy some plex |
Dave Stark
7606
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:16:43 -
[3335] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:because what happens when you remove all the SP from astrogeology V, and then want to remove it from mining IV also?
if you remove SP from mining IV, and no longer train astrogeology? if so that'll affect grandfathered players. or, will you not be able to remove more SP from mining IV as it's a prerequisite for an injected skill? How would you remove the SP from Mining IV when you still have astrogeology? Unless astrogeology is removed extracting SP from mining that would lower it to under lvl IV should be impossible as stated since the prereqs state it's needed to inject the skill, whether chosing to train it or not.
that's my point; you can't get rid of astrogeology - once you have injected a skill you can't remove it.
so are we stuck with some skills if we've injected skills that require them as prerequisites? are we stuck with "dead weight" skills? |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
107
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:16:45 -
[3336] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Thanks for admitting you did not read it. Gives a lot to your credibility ;) uh, i just told you i read it? did you not read what i wrote? i read the bit before you went on a complete and irrelevant tangent for 2 pages (i know that because i skimmed the other 2 pages to be sure). 1 of 3? Irrelevant to the topic? Maybe for you this topic consists of only simple yes/no for this change. I have went much deeper and explained through whole business model. Since, you know, this is a business, which creates CCP A LOT of money. So pointing flaws this brings to that business is quite relevant and on topic. Skimmed does not equal read. But no worries, I did not really expect from you to come with counter arguments for what I have wrote anyway :) Majority of us here already figured out your "play" :) ccp's business model is irrelevant to the discussion. they want feedback on this idea, not how to manage their financials.
CCP business model of EVE is quite relevant to any EVE related subject. [b]IIF/b]you had read my post i never even mentioned their finances, since that is their own worry, I have explained what impacts it might have on the player base and why.
But then again, reading something and providing counter arguments to it is not why you are here ;)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
107
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:17:47 -
[3337] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:because what happens when you remove all the SP from astrogeology V, and then want to remove it from mining IV also?
if you remove SP from mining IV, and no longer train astrogeology? if so that'll affect grandfathered players. or, will you not be able to remove more SP from mining IV as it's a prerequisite for an injected skill? How would you remove the SP from Mining IV when you still have astrogeology? Unless astrogeology is removed extracting SP from mining that would lower it to under lvl IV should be impossible as stated since the prereqs state it's needed to inject the skill, whether chosing to train it or not. that's my point; you can't get rid of astrogeology - once you have injected a skill you can't remove it. so are we stuck with some skills if we've injected skills that require them as prerequisites? are we stuck with "dead weight" skills?
No one planted that skill in your head and taken subscription money for the time it takes to train it from you. You have chosen it on your own. Live with that, suffer the consequences.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7606
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:17:58 -
[3338] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Maekchu wrote: They were most positive about the fact, that newbies will have an additional goal to work towards. Meaning, one more reason to actually undock and do something, instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked while the skill queue is running.
That my personal reason why I keeps supporting this idea. Yeah thats it, 330m per 500,000 sp's ..... so wheres the newguy going to go to earn that oh yeah ill buy some plex
he'll earn it in jita scamming. |
Dave Stark
7606
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:19:35 -
[3339] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:because what happens when you remove all the SP from astrogeology V, and then want to remove it from mining IV also?
if you remove SP from mining IV, and no longer train astrogeology? if so that'll affect grandfathered players. or, will you not be able to remove more SP from mining IV as it's a prerequisite for an injected skill? How would you remove the SP from Mining IV when you still have astrogeology? Unless astrogeology is removed extracting SP from mining that would lower it to under lvl IV should be impossible as stated since the prereqs state it's needed to inject the skill, whether chosing to train it or not. that's my point; you can't get rid of astrogeology - once you have injected a skill you can't remove it. so are we stuck with some skills if we've injected skills that require them as prerequisites? are we stuck with "dead weight" skills? No one planted that skill in your head and taken subscription money for the time it takes to train it from you. You have chosen it on your own. Live with that, suffer the consequences.
i know nobody did.
however, i'm asking the question as it doesn't yet seem to have an answer.
if you have any skill injected that has prerequisites, by virtue of being unable to "uninject" a skill are the prerequisites then permanently excluded from being used to extract SP?
edit; if so, then the number of "vets with spare sp" drops from "almost everyone" to "a handful".
if you have mining barge injected, or trained you won't be able to extract SP below astrogeology III, which means you won't be able to extract mining to below IV... etc. that's a good chunk of SP you can't extract because you once did some mining as a newbie. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
151
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:19:47 -
[3340] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Maekchu wrote:... They were most positive about the fact, that newbies will have an additional goal to work towards. Meaning, one more reason to actually undock and do something, instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked while the skill queue is running. Then you've been telling newbies the wrong things as I was in space making ISK from day one whilst learning ways to do and make more. You misunderstand me, which is fine since I didn't elaborate enough on this point initially.
I will always tell newbies, that SP does not matter and you can always find a goal to work towards in EvE, since it is a sandbox. The game is what you make of it yourself.
That being said, when I've tried to convince my friends to play (and they did try out the trial), they quickly got bored with the opportunities they were given. Trying to make ISK for more ships, was not really that attractive since they would still not be able to fly them. Trying to make ISK for PLEX was also not that attractive, since they have no problem just subbing. A Plex just means a month of sub, but an additional free month of play does not change the perception of slow progression.
Basically, they would get the same amount of enjoyment out of the game by just going offline and keeping the queue running. That first month with almost no skills, is really not that exciting. And yes, we all have gone through it, but it is very hard to sell a game to someone, when they get almost the same result by just paying the sub and going offline.
The proposed change, will however give the incentive to earn ISK in order to quickly progress to whatever they want to do. Keeping players motivated to be active in space, opposed to just keeping the queue running for a month while they do something else. While such a feature already exists, in the form of the character bazaar, I understand CCPs attempt to simplify this service. The character bazaar is simply just too clunky. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:21:14 -
[3341] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:because what happens when you remove all the SP from astrogeology V, and then want to remove it from mining IV also?
if you remove SP from mining IV, and no longer train astrogeology? if so that'll affect grandfathered players. or, will you not be able to remove more SP from mining IV as it's a prerequisite for an injected skill? How would you remove the SP from Mining IV when you still have astrogeology? Unless astrogeology is removed extracting SP from mining that would lower it to under lvl IV should be impossible as stated since the prereqs state it's needed to inject the skill, whether chosing to train it or not. that's my point; you can't get rid of astrogeology - once you have injected a skill you can't remove it. so are we stuck with some skills if we've injected skills that require them as prerequisites? are we stuck with "dead weight" skills? Unless we want to get into actual skill removal I'd say that yes, it makes perfect sense to lock in "dead weight" skills. That seems to be exactly what was suggested in the Dev response quoted.
|
J0n Br0wn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:22:15 -
[3342] - Quote
A quick summary:
1. Character Bazaar: made easier and better visibility and access. GOOD IDEA suggestion: something like the contract system?
2. Ability to change name of character after sale, limited physical re-spec: GOOD IDEA How many times did we start with a "smart A**" name and after a while wish we had named it something less "shocking".
3. Strip Skills from my character for ISK: HMMMM Sell the skills back to a "University" for Isk ... was not the direct thought of the thread but a natural progression. Another way to make isk from older characters, or "cash in " on a bad / no longer used skill path.
4. Sell Skill points as discussed in the thread: BAD BAD IDEA while the concept might work in a hyper-capitalistic theory, it will explode upon application because of very crafty player base.
5. general comment on buying/ selling characters. Buyer beware! however, better Visibility of what the characters history was and other factors should be easily reviewed by the buyer. more information about the Character would reduce " less then honest" selling intentions.
6. Specialized Clones - it's time to look at attribute /skill enhanced clones , not just implants to augment a characters Skills. Risk is if killed you loose the clone and implants...
J0n Br0wn
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:22:40 -
[3343] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Maekchu wrote: They were most positive about the fact, that newbies will have an additional goal to work towards. Meaning, one more reason to actually undock and do something, instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked while the skill queue is running.
That my personal reason why I keeps supporting this idea. Yeah thats it, 330m per 500,000 sp's ..... so wheres the newguy going to go to earn that oh yeah ill buy some plex he'll earn it in jita scamming.
Where's you sheep gone can't he answer now. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
107
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:23:22 -
[3344] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:because what happens when you remove all the SP from astrogeology V, and then want to remove it from mining IV also?
if you remove SP from mining IV, and no longer train astrogeology? if so that'll affect grandfathered players. or, will you not be able to remove more SP from mining IV as it's a prerequisite for an injected skill? How would you remove the SP from Mining IV when you still have astrogeology? Unless astrogeology is removed extracting SP from mining that would lower it to under lvl IV should be impossible as stated since the prereqs state it's needed to inject the skill, whether chosing to train it or not. that's my point; you can't get rid of astrogeology - once you have injected a skill you can't remove it. so are we stuck with some skills if we've injected skills that require them as prerequisites? are we stuck with "dead weight" skills? No one planted that skill in your head and taken subscription money for the time it takes to train it from you. You have chosen it on your own. Live with that, suffer the consequences. i know nobody did. however, i'm asking the question as it doesn't yet seem to have an answer. if you have any skill injected that has prerequisites, by virtue of being unable to "uninject" a skill are the prerequisites then permanently excluded from being used to extract SP? edit; if so, then the number of "vets with spare sp" drops from "almost everyone" to "a handful".
Oh sorry, I just pulled classic "Dave Stark posting" on you, hoped you would like it :/
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7606
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:23:30 -
[3345] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Unless we want to get into actual skill removal I'd say that yes, it makes perfect sense to lock in "dead weight" skills. That seems to be exactly what was suggested in the Dev response quoted.
which directly contradicts the devblog which states..
"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether youGÇÖre an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you donGÇÖt use any more," |
Dave Stark
7606
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:31:07 -
[3346] - Quote
Vodar Valimian wrote:This is such an epic bad idea that i cringe just thinking about it.
Here are my 2 cents.
- Cent 1 - Having a perfectly skilled character in any specific field used to be a testament to the patience and dedication of the player who built the character. These characters are rare because the investment in time and sacrifice is significant.
But no longer. Want a perfect (insert major ship type here)? 30 min and currency (poof). The fact that a character with the combination of these skills were so rare was a testament to the player who invested years in their creation. Remove the scarcity, remove the value. This idea so cheapens the game and the existing characters that it is hard to take it seriously.
- Cent 2 - How does this make any sense at all. The whole point of clones and transfer of memories is that you transfer your memories. How can you transfer someone else's experiences.
Bottom line, this is a sickening and obvious cash grab and I predict it will make eve just another (play to win) (fail) game.
Thanks,
Vodar
cent 1 - those characters are a dime a dozen because they can be sold on the bazaar for profit. that and the fact that the game's over a decade old and most things don't actually take that long to train perfect skills for. i had a perfect miner in less than 2 years.
cent 2 - if, on the moment of death i can take my entire consciousness from one body to another... or, whenever i please with jump clones... well, pretty sure that right there points out how it makes sense. we already shift our mind around at will. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:31:41 -
[3347] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Unless we want to get into actual skill removal I'd say that yes, it makes perfect sense to lock in "dead weight" skills. That seems to be exactly what was suggested in the Dev response quoted.
which directly contradicts the devblog which states.. "By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether youGÇÖre an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you donGÇÖt use any more," No, there's no contradiction as "more control" != "complete control". Just as there are skills I'm obligated to have to use certain other skills there might be skills I'm obligated to keep due to certain other skills, but that certainly doesn't mean I can't rid myself of some of the excess "waste" in ways I can't now, hence being more control.
Being able to dump SP from ore specs, Exhumers/Mining Barge, Expedition Frigate/Mining Frigate, and some others I'm probably forgetting would more than justify the statement.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3551
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:31:42 -
[3348] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:I'd pay $25 for 1mil SP all day everyday.
How about $25 for 100,000 SP?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:32:48 -
[3349] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:I'd pay $25 for 1mil SP all day everyday.
That statement really sums up this whole **** up |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:35:11 -
[3350] - Quote
$25/million(or 1/10th of that) SP? I'll take the long way thanks...
But if others think it worthwhile, I won't stand in the way. |
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3551
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:36:16 -
[3351] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:I'd pay $25 for 1mil SP all day everyday. That statement really sums up this whole **** up
I think its a bit of an outlier to be honest. Assuming the everyday part means he'd get 1 million SP everyday and at the end of the month would have a character with something in the neighborhood of 30 million SP...he'd pay $750.
No way I'd pay that.
Of course, if he means for $25 he'd buy a million SP it means he'd go buy a PLEX and with that money buy about 2 million SP. Of course once he crossed the 50 million SP barrier he'd stop...as I indicated in my earlier post.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dave Stark
7606
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:36:35 -
[3352] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:And this is most likely the minimum price generally speaking.
actually, it's just going to be the price of SP. ~1/4 plex price + extractor price.
there's no reason to sell below cost price, and the barrier to entry for selling SP is basically a subscribed account meaning anyone and everyone can start an SP farm. unless you're already dual training you can have up to 3 SP farms per account.
this literally non-existent barrier to entry will put a near uncontestable downwards pressure on the price of TSPs.
there's very little for the price to go except to track at 1/4 plex price + TSE price. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
151
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:37:23 -
[3353] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Maekchu wrote: They were most positive about the fact, that newbies will have an additional goal to work towards. Meaning, one more reason to actually undock and do something, instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked while the skill queue is running.
That my personal reason why I keeps supporting this idea. Yeah thats it, 330m per 500,000 sp's ..... so wheres the newguy going to go to earn that oh yeah ill buy some plex Doesn't really matter if they end up buying a PLEX to do it.
What matters, is that it gives new players an incentive to actually undock and do something active in EvE in order to earn ISK. New players start with enough skills to fly frigates, Meta fitted frigates are not expensive.
Even with a new character, you can quickly gain enough ISK to replace your frigates. So you save up ISK for bigger ships, but you don't have enough skills to fly those anyway. Since you cannot fly those yet, then what is the point of saving up for them, until you actually can fly them?
You could save up for a PLEX if you are interested in gaining a free month of sub, but for those who will just sub. What is there for them to do, other than saving up ISK and playing skill queue online?
In the end, it doesn't really matter if they will actually make enough ISK to buy this SP injection. What is important is that it makes people undock and actively try to earn ISK. Gives them a purpose to their gameplay. A purpose, that can be very hard to find for a complete newbie, that does not understand the game enough make a more EvE related goal for their character. A boost to your character, is a universal enough language, that it would easily be understood as something to be worked towards for newer players.
|
Dave Stark
7606
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:38:32 -
[3354] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Unless we want to get into actual skill removal I'd say that yes, it makes perfect sense to lock in "dead weight" skills. That seems to be exactly what was suggested in the Dev response quoted.
which directly contradicts the devblog which states.. "By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether youGÇÖre an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you donGÇÖt use any more," No, there's no contradiction as "more control" != "complete control". Just as there are skills I'm obligated to have to use certain other skills there might be skills I'm obligated to keep due to certain other skills, but that certainly doesn't mean I can't rid myself of some of the excess "waste" in ways I can't now, hence being more control. Being able to dump SP from ore specs, Exhumers/Mining Barge, Expedition Frigate/Mining Frigate, and some others I'm probably forgetting would more than justify the statement.
i wasn't referring to that part.
i was referring to the bit that says "rather have isk than those mining skills you don't use any more" that simply won't be the case if you mined. the prerequisite for mining ships are the mining skills. if i can't extract any of the mining skills i don't use any more because i injected the mining barges skill... |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3551
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:44:05 -
[3355] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:$25/million(or 1/10th of that) SP? I'll take the long way thanks...
But if others think it worthwhile, I won't stand in the way.
I think that is the take away from CCP Terminus' post about the character bazaar (25,000 or so characters bought and sold/year, most of them new customers) is that there is a subset of the new players who want to participate in the game don't want to wait so they buy PLEX and buy characters.
Presumably, with this SP market they'd do something similar, but with the added bonuses of selecting name, gender, and customizing the character as well in terms of distribution of SP.
As I indicated it would be great to an idea of how large is this segment of the new player population. Is it 25% of 5%? I don't see why such information should be confidential any more than being told what we already have about the character bazaar.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:45:03 -
[3356] - Quote
Vodar Valimian wrote:This is such an epic bad idea that i cringe just thinking about it.
Here are my 2 cents.
- Cent 1 - Having a perfectly skilled character in any specific field used to be a testament to the patience and dedication of the player who built the character. These characters are rare because the investment in time and sacrifice is significant.
But no longer. Want a perfect (insert major ship type here)? 30 min and currency (poof). The fact that a character with the combination of these skills were so rare was a testament to the player who invested years in their creation. Remove the scarcity, remove the value. This idea so cheapens the game and the existing characters that it is hard to take it seriously.
- Cent 2 - How does this make any sense at all. The whole point of clones and transfer of memories is that you transfer your memories. How can you transfer someone else's experiences.
Bottom line, this is a sickening and obvious cash grab and I predict it will make eve just another (play to win) (fail) game.
Thanks,
Vodar Toons higher than 50m SP still be unique because of small effectiveness of SP injector. You can transfer your experiences by teaching (how it happening IRL) but it's side question. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3551
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:45:52 -
[3357] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:And this is most likely the minimum price generally speaking. actually, it's just going to be the price of SP. ~1/4 plex price + extractor price. there's no reason to sell below cost price, and the barrier to entry for selling SP is basically a subscribed account meaning anyone and everyone can start an SP farm. unless you're already dual training you can have up to 3 SP farms per account. this literally non-existent barrier to entry will put a near uncontestable downwards pressure on the price of TSPs. there's very little for the price to go except to track at 1/4 plex price + TSE price.
No. Price is set by supply and demand. Supply is based on costs. So, price will be greater than or equal to costs.
It will track the PLEX price given the costs component, but demand could cause to rise above that level.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:47:32 -
[3358] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:I'd pay $25 for 1mil SP all day everyday. That statement really sums up this whole **** up
Great for people 0-5million SP... then you get deminishing returns after that...
So.. How afraid of characters with 5-10million skillpoints are you? Give me a mark out of 10... 9/10? -.- |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:47:38 -
[3359] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Unless we want to get into actual skill removal I'd say that yes, it makes perfect sense to lock in "dead weight" skills. That seems to be exactly what was suggested in the Dev response quoted.
which directly contradicts the devblog which states.. "By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether youGÇÖre an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you donGÇÖt use any more," No, there's no contradiction as "more control" != "complete control". Just as there are skills I'm obligated to have to use certain other skills there might be skills I'm obligated to keep due to certain other skills, but that certainly doesn't mean I can't rid myself of some of the excess "waste" in ways I can't now, hence being more control. Being able to dump SP from ore specs, Exhumers/Mining Barge, Expedition Frigate/Mining Frigate, and some others I'm probably forgetting would more than justify the statement. i wasn't referring to that part. i was referring to the bit that says "rather have isk than those mining skills you don't use any more" that simply won't be the case if you mined. the prerequisite for mining ships are the mining skills. if i can't extract any of the mining skills i don't use any more because i injected the mining barges skill... The skills I listed where SP could be extracted are mining related, so I don't think we really have a conflict. Nor do I see it stated explicitly that all skills, mining or otherwise, are eligible in the blog, but I do see it stated in the dev posts that prereqs are not going to be eligible. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:47:59 -
[3360] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Maekchu wrote: They were most positive about the fact, that newbies will have an additional goal to work towards. Meaning, one more reason to actually undock and do something, instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked while the skill queue is running.
That my personal reason why I keeps supporting this idea. Yeah thats it, 330m per 500,000 sp's ..... so wheres the newguy going to go to earn that oh yeah ill buy some plex Doesn't really matter if they end up buying a PLEX to do it. What matters, is that it gives new players an incentive to actually undock and do something active in EvE in order to earn ISK. New players start with enough skills to fly frigates, Meta fitted frigates are not expensive. Even with a new character, you can quickly gain enough ISK to replace your frigates. So you save up ISK for bigger ships, but you don't have enough skills to fly those anyway. Since you cannot fly those yet, then what is the point of saving up for them, until you actually can fly them? You could save up for a PLEX if you are interested in gaining a free month of sub, but for those who will just sub. What is there for them to do, other than saving up ISK and playing skill queue online? In the end, it doesn't really matter if they will actually make enough ISK to buy this SP injection. What is important is that it makes people undock and actively try to earn ISK. Gives them a purpose to their gameplay. A purpose, that can be very hard to find for a complete newbie, that does not understand the game enough make a more EvE related goal for their character. A boost to your character, is a universal enough language, that it would easily be understood as something to be worked towards for newer players.
Have you actually started a new toon lately, you get 400,000 sp's now, they throw skillbooks at you left right and centre , theres all manner of ships to be got running the tuts, when we started there was nothing and 5k theres the door goodbye. How much more you wanna dumb down a game for newguys ...... may as well stick a few orcs and dwarfs in at this rate. |
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Dave Stark
7607
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:49:15 -
[3361] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:And this is most likely the minimum price generally speaking. actually, it's just going to be the price of SP. ~1/4 plex price + extractor price. there's no reason to sell below cost price, and the barrier to entry for selling SP is basically a subscribed account meaning anyone and everyone can start an SP farm. unless you're already dual training you can have up to 3 SP farms per account. this literally non-existent barrier to entry will put a near uncontestable downwards pressure on the price of TSPs. there's very little for the price to go except to track at 1/4 plex price + TSE price. No. Price is set by supply and demand. Supply is based on costs. So, price will be greater than or equal to costs. It will track the PLEX price given the costs component, but demand could cause to rise above that level.
when price rises above cost price, there's nothing to stop new suppliers entering the market. the barrier to entry is very, very low. due to this there's almost no limit to how much downwards pressure that can be put on TSP prices due to an increase in supply. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3551
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:51:46 -
[3362] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:And this is most likely the minimum price generally speaking. actually, it's just going to be the price of SP. ~1/4 plex price + extractor price. there's no reason to sell below cost price, and the barrier to entry for selling SP is basically a subscribed account meaning anyone and everyone can start an SP farm. unless you're already dual training you can have up to 3 SP farms per account. this literally non-existent barrier to entry will put a near uncontestable downwards pressure on the price of TSPs. there's very little for the price to go except to track at 1/4 plex price + TSE price. No. Price is set by supply and demand. Supply is based on costs. So, price will be greater than or equal to costs. It will track the PLEX price given the costs component, but demand could cause to rise above that level. when price rises above cost price, there's nothing to stop new suppliers entering the market. the barrier to entry is very, very low. due to this there's almost no limit to how much downwards pressure that can be put on TSP prices due to an increase in supply.
Yes, that could happen. The other is that if the demand shifts outward permanent for some reason driving up the price, over time that will likely drive up the PLEX price, bringing the market back into alignment.
The price tend towards equality with the PLEX market with periodic deviations.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:52:02 -
[3363] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:$25/million(or 1/10th of that) SP? I'll take the long way thanks...
But if others think it worthwhile, I won't stand in the way. I think that is the take away from CCP Terminus' post about the character bazaar (25,000 or so characters bought and sold/year, most of them new customers) is that there is a subset of the new players who want to participate in the game don't want to wait so they buy PLEX and buy characters. Presumably, with this SP market they'd do something similar, but with the added bonuses of selecting name, gender, and customizing the character as well in terms of distribution of SP. As I indicated it would be great to an idea of how large is this segment of the new player population. Is it 25% of 5%? I don't see why such information should be confidential any more than being told what we already have about the character bazaar. Personally I'd be interested in finding out who is bankrolling those purchases. Is it older players financing the purchases for new players? And if new players how does this become anything but good for them to be able to piecemeal the purchase rather than look at a price of several plex up front or nothing? |
Dave Stark
7607
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:52:17 -
[3364] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Unless we want to get into actual skill removal I'd say that yes, it makes perfect sense to lock in "dead weight" skills. That seems to be exactly what was suggested in the Dev response quoted.
which directly contradicts the devblog which states.. "By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether youGÇÖre an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you donGÇÖt use any more," No, there's no contradiction as "more control" != "complete control". Just as there are skills I'm obligated to have to use certain other skills there might be skills I'm obligated to keep due to certain other skills, but that certainly doesn't mean I can't rid myself of some of the excess "waste" in ways I can't now, hence being more control. Being able to dump SP from ore specs, Exhumers/Mining Barge, Expedition Frigate/Mining Frigate, and some others I'm probably forgetting would more than justify the statement. i wasn't referring to that part. i was referring to the bit that says "rather have isk than those mining skills you don't use any more" that simply won't be the case if you mined. the prerequisite for mining ships are the mining skills. if i can't extract any of the mining skills i don't use any more because i injected the mining barges skill... The skills I listed where SP could be extracted are mining related, so I don't think we really have a conflict. Nor do I see it stated explicitly that all skills, mining or otherwise, are eligible in the blog, but I do see it stated in the dev posts that prereqs are not going to be eligible.
a large portioin of skills people will want to get rid of are prerequisites. especially if they invested in something heavily before investing in something else - like pretty much all older characters did. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:55:22 -
[3365] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:a large portioin of skills people will want to get rid of are prerequisites. especially if they invested in something heavily before investing in something else - like pretty much all older characters did. I certainly get this and how it would curtail the initially "unlimited" use and appeal this would have had. That said, as stated between the blog and dev posts, that's the best interpretation I can manage. A dev posts on the possibility of removing skills to free up more SP would be great, though personally I'm not sure this would make it a bit too flexible for character cannibalization. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3551
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:57:00 -
[3366] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:$25/million(or 1/10th of that) SP? I'll take the long way thanks...
But if others think it worthwhile, I won't stand in the way. I think that is the take away from CCP Terminus' post about the character bazaar (25,000 or so characters bought and sold/year, most of them new customers) is that there is a subset of the new players who want to participate in the game don't want to wait so they buy PLEX and buy characters. Presumably, with this SP market they'd do something similar, but with the added bonuses of selecting name, gender, and customizing the character as well in terms of distribution of SP. As I indicated it would be great to an idea of how large is this segment of the new player population. Is it 25% of 5%? I don't see why such information should be confidential any more than being told what we already have about the character bazaar. Personally I'd be interested in finding out who is bankrolling those purchases. Is it older players financing the purchases for new players? And if new players how does this become anything but good for them to be able to piecemeal the purchase rather than look at a price of several plex up front or nothing?
Interesting question. I would suspect it is mainly people bankrolling their own purchases, but v0v.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9321
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:58:45 -
[3367] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: Have you actually started a new toon lately, you get 400,000 sp's now, they throw skillbooks at you left right and centre , theres all manner of ships to be got running the tuts, when we started there was nothing and 5k theres the door goodbye. How much more you wanna dumb down a game for newguys ...... may as well stick a few orcs and dwarfs in at this rate.
No kidding.
What happened to the good ol' days of starting a character and then going to play another game for a few months while your learning skills trained?
These new kids are so spoiled. They get to actually start playing the game the same day they make a character.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25769
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:59:38 -
[3368] - Quote
I'm a fan of Elise Randolph's for various reasons. However, I feel that he's presented some arguments in favor of SP Trading which seem reasonable, on the surface, but don't quite take into account how the mechanic would affect EVE as a whole.
I'd like to summarize what I'm about to write (this is the tl;dr).
1. Character Bazaar and SP Trading are not comparable mechanics. The only similarity they have is the SP transfer, but we can't divorce the pros and cons of each when we compare them. 2. SP Trading devalues characters and removes consequences (not just the consequences of skill training choices). 3. SP Trading is pay to win. I'll clarify exactly what I mean by that. 4. SP Trading will be abused 5. There are better things CCP can spend time on to make EVE a better, more attractive game to new players.
Part 1: The Character Bazaar and SP Trading is not the same. It's false equivalency to say they're the same.
1.Motivation: The primary reason for Bazaar to exist is, as CCP says, to "discourage people from participating in illegal account sales on eBay and other sites".
SP trading does not inherently prevent RMT like the Bazaar does. Why? Because people can trade characters by exchanging login info even if CCP did not have a mechanism to transfer characters. However, there is no way that people can trade SPs today. This means SP trading doesn't exist in any illicit way that character transfers can exist. Thus, SP trading as a mechanism is not motivated by the need to prevent RMT. From the perspective of an "EVE Fan", it seems like CCP's motivation is a money grab.
2.Pros and cons: Let's talk about the second distinction between Bazaar and SP trading.
Bazaar: (A) Con: reputation, corp history, sec status. This is not immediately apparent, even with EVEWho, zKill, etc. (B) Con: character name (C) Con: Race is locked (D) Con: Gender is locked (E) Con: SP is untransferrable. From the point that you buy the character, they have to train realtime (F) Con: SP is locked to all the skills the original owner chose to train. (G) Con: 2 PLEX transfer fee baked into sale price (H) Con: If the sale is posted on Bazaar, then there is a public record of the "bundle of SP" being transferred to you (J) Con: Cost of skillbooks (if expensive) baked into sale price (K) Con: Adds logistical difficulties on part of seller. They have to transfer out excess inventory, move the character to a neutral location, add eveboard link, making a public post and bumping it, advertising the character amongst myriad alternate options, etc.
(L) Con: Adds logistical difficulties on part of the buyer. They have to transfer in inventory (and then possibly move it long distances), apply to the corp they want and pass the recruitment screening, do extensive research before buying the character, and then suffer all the consequences of "A" if they didn't do adequate research.
(M) Pro: Buyer instantly gains a bundle of SP they did not themselves train for (N) Pro: Probably? cheaper than SP trading in ISK/SP. However, this may or may not be true depending on the Extractor + SP training cost (for 500k SP it is 1/4 PLEX + 300? Million ISK)
SP Trading: (i) Con: Probably? costs more than a Bazaar transfer. However, this may or may not be true depending on the Extractor + SP training cost (for 500k SP it is 1/4 PLEX + 300? Million ISK)
(ii) Pro: Does not have any of the Cons of Bazaar, specifically A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,J,K,L (iii) Pro: Increase SPs on your main who has the reputation, corp history, sec status, character name, race, gender, inventory in all the right locations, has already passed corp recruitment, is sitting in a station that you choose.
(iv) Pro: Increase SP without any auditing capabilities of where that SP came from. Why is this important? EVE is a game of reputation, and consequences for choices you make. When there is no audit process of how you are funnelling SP from disreputable alts, we turn EVE into a game where character choices no longer matter. Any corp theft, and corp spy can be recycled at a 20% SP cost (or less!). Conversely, the buyer never learns how to be careful and how to do research.
(v) Pro: Add SP to whichever skills you want, in any order you want. (vi) Pro: Not limited to scarcity. No upper limit on SPs being generated. Bazaar characters of all different kinds of professions can be found, but good characters are scarce. SPs will always be available. To give an analogue, in Bazaar Logistics V will not always be available at the price point or package (ie: character) you want. However, SPs will always be available on market, and always at bargain basement prices due to the nature of one-click-buy market goods.
(vii) Pro: SP will be the only passive income source in the game not subject to any shipping logistics (read: zero effort).
As you can see Bazaar and SP Trading are two completely different animals. It is a specious argument to insist that CCP is not adding a fundamentally different mechanic into the game.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
151
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:00:20 -
[3369] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Have you actually started a new toon lately, you get 400,000 sp's now, they throw skillbooks at you left right and centre , theres all manner of ships to be got running the tuts, when we started there was nothing and 5k theres the door goodbye. How much more you wanna dumb down a game for newguys ...... may as well stick a few orcs and dwarfs in at this rate. I know of the SP change to new characters and I was also a big supporter of that.
Fun fact: Some older characters actually started with 900k SP.
Why do you think SP correlates with the difficulty of the game? SP trains by itself. You only need to put skills into the queue and wait. There is nothing hard about it. It only takes time.
The reason EvE is difficult, is not because it is a hard game to play mechanically. The PvP system, is basically lock-shoot (unless you solo/small-gang, which adds a few extra factors) and the PvE is laughably easy.
The reasons EvE is difficult is:
- Clunky UI - Huge amount of different items - A vast amount of stuff you can do, but little guidance - Community based (meaning you actually need to be social and create bonds, which can be hard in a game where no one trusts each other)
SP have nothing to do with the difficulty of the game, so I don't see the problem with giving the option to players to get to the point, where EvE is actually enjoyable (as well as giving them some form of goal in their initial playing time). |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25769
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:00:29 -
[3370] - Quote
Part 2: SP Trading devalues characters.
EVE is a personality game. Our personalities are tied to characters, whether or not we admit it to ourselves. Chribba is unmistakably Chribba and no one else has the reputation he does. The reason why just about every CSM member and Chribba are against SP Trading is because SP Trading modularizes a character.
The argument is that the character is simply the sum of its parts. Deconstruct and reconstruct SPs and functionally you have the same thing.
A character is more than the sum of its parts, and in order for the idea of a character retaining value, the SPs it has trained have to remain "trapped" inside that character. Why? Because everything else the character does is also "trapped" inside that character.. the metagaming choices she's made, the history she has with others, the Corps she's joined, the ships she has destroyed. None of these things can be wiped out because I believe we have an unspoken agreement that in EVE what's happened to a character is something they keep for the rest of their life. How can Skill Points, which is the most fundamental non-meta mechanic in the game, suddenly be divorced from characters wholesale without devaluing characters themselves?
The argument is that if you don't like your skills, and you want a different skillset, then go to the Bazaar and buy another character. But in doing so you have to sacrifice the reputation and the name of the character you have now.. the one you don't like so much. A character's race and gender have massive significance inside the EVE roleplaying community. A character's name has massive significance in all of EVE's communities. These character qualities are part of an important sacrifice that is missing in SP Trading, and simply putting a higher ISK/SP price on it is missing the point.
Part 3: SP Trading is Pay to Win
I define "pay to win" as any feature that is locked behind a paywall that another RL poor gamer can't unlock no matter how much time and effort he spends in the game.
Is PLEX pay to win? No for 2 reasons: 1. Buying shinier things doesn't make you a better player automatically 2. A person can work hard enough in game and earn the ISK to get a PLEX
Is Character Bazaar pay to win? No for the same 2 reasons as I listed for PLEX.
Is SP Trading pay to win? It is, for these reasons: 1. SP Trading has no upper bound. If I make 1 SP mule on an account using MCT, I can give my main 1.6M SP per month (80% of 2M) extra. If I have 2 SP mules, my main gets 3.2M SP per month extra. The only upper bound is real money, and someone with lots of money can easily "out-perform" someone who is just playing the game without paying extra money. 2. CCP has not responded to the question of how they would prevent RMT on SP. My belief is that it's not possible. Characters are "big bundles" of SP connected to accounts that can be IP tracked to determined if they've switched hands. PLEXs are cheap enough officially during Amazon sales that it hardly makes much sense to RMT PLEX in the first place. But SP will be an ubiquitous currency that will be traded everywhere. And there is nothing that stops people not currently subscribed to the game from coming in and cashing out.
Part 4: SP Trading will be abused.
Let me list the ways: 1. SP mules making passive income on countless accounts 2. People blowing away the max 2700 SP per hour limit. Now there is no upper limit so characters could gain as much SP as they want per hour, because sky's the limit for an IRL rich player 3. Large alliances will be able to afford SP packets for their rookie line members. Small alliance won't be able to. 4. Instant gratification for Alliance Tournament participation. Cash in SPs and enlist as a contender (maybe Elise considers to be a good thing). Can you see how this will be abused when combined with #3? 5. People un-biomassing old characters to cash in on SPs. 6. EVE quitters subscribing for 1 month to cash in on SPs. 7. RMT RMT RMT RMT RMT 8. Awoxers, corp thieves, spies recycled with only a 20% hit in SPs 9. It will perpetuate the myth that SPs make you win EVE to people who will fork out money to chase this myth. This will be one of the biggest exploits that rookies will face coming into EVE, and when they realize SPs don't make them good players they will quit.
Part 5: What can CCP do instead?
I think I've provided logical, rational, not emotional reasons for why SP Trading will be bad for EVE.
What can CCP do better to improve gameplay?
1. Fix skill training boosting implants so that they don't give players a reason not to undock 2. Improve all the irritating little things in UI that detract from us enjoying the game (there are massive lists that can be found in F&I).
And I wish I could shout you out
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Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
130
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:04:39 -
[3371] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:I think that is the take away from CCP Terminus' post about the character bazaar (25,000 or so characters bought and sold/year, most of them new customers)
How did you infer the "most of them new customers" part?
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Mag's
the united
20576
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:07:20 -
[3372] - Quote
Delegate wrote:How did you infer the "most of them new customers" part?
CCP Terminus wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:CCP Terminus wrote: Roughly 70 characters are traded per day, not per month. Something like 25000 a year give or take.
Some more data: - Most traded characters are 50 million SP or lower. - A good portion of trades are to newer players (measured by new customers not just new accounts).
Are you able to distinguish new accounts from alt accounts? Not perfectly but yes, that's what measured by new customers not just new accounts implies.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3551
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:09:05 -
[3373] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:(vi) Pro: [SP] Not limited to scarcity. No upper limit on SPs being generated. Bazaar characters of all different kinds of professions can be found, but good characters are scarce. SPs will always be available. To give an analogue, in Bazaar Logistics V will not always be available at the price point or package (ie: character) you want. However, SPs will always be available on market, and always at bargain basement prices due to the nature of one-click-buy market goods.
Not entirely true.
Let N be the sum total of characters in Eve with more than 5 million SP. Let K be the sum total of SP of these N characters. The total number of SP that could, in theory make it onto the market is:
K - N*5,000,000.
That is the upper limit on SP that could find its way into the market.
In reality we will probably never see that number on the market.
Thus, there is going to be a limit.
The fact, that over time more and more SP are being generated does not imply non-scarcity. After we are growing more food as time goes by how can there ever be starvation and malnutrition?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9321
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:09:23 -
[3374] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:I think that is the take away from CCP Terminus' post about the character bazaar (25,000 or so characters bought and sold/year, most of them new customers)
How did you infer the "most of them new customers" part?
CCP Terminus wrote:Roughly 70 characters are traded per day, not per month. Something like 25000 a year give or take.
Some more data: - Most traded characters are 50 million SP or lower. - A good portion of trades are to newer players (measured by new customers not just new accounts).
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
151
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:13:21 -
[3375] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Part 2: SP Trading devalues characters.
EVE is a personality game. Our personalities are tied to characters, whether or not we admit it to ourselves. Chribba is unmistakably Chribba and no one else has the reputation he does. The reason why just about every CSM member and Chribba are against SP Trading is because SP Trading modularizes a character.
I'm just going to address this point, since I feel the others have already been counter-argued.
It is true, that EvE is that tries have players build characters and personalities. And EvE have spawned many in-game celebrities like, Chribba, The Mittani, James 315, etc.
But none if these players have become popular because of their SP pools. It is the deeds and their reputation that have made them popular. I don't think anyone have become popular because of SP alone, so I don't see how this change would devalue a character. The "value/reputation" of a character is still based of its deeds and actions, and not the possibility to inject some extra SP into their skill queue. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
130
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:14:01 -
[3376] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Delegate wrote:How did you infer the "most of them new customers" part? CCP Terminus wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:CCP Terminus wrote: Roughly 70 characters are traded per day, not per month. Something like 25000 a year give or take.
Some more data: - Most traded characters are 50 million SP or lower. - A good portion of trades are to newer players (measured by new customers not just new accounts).
Are you able to distinguish new accounts from alt accounts? Not perfectly but yes, that's what measured by new customers not just new accounts implies.
What I'm reading here is "good portion". What is "good portion"? 10%? 15%? most? 90%? So again, how do you infer "most of them new customers"? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:16:24 -
[3377] - Quote
@Sibyyl
Funny thing about the cons of the Baraar: (A) is irrelevant for buyers with existing social connections, benefiting established players over new ones, like we need more of that. (B)-(F) seem pretty irrelevant, you either accept the characters features and function or not, and if you do these aren't an issue. (G),(J) I'm not sure what the "con" is there. That there is a cost to doing business imposed by CCP? (H) Again, not sure what the issue is in itself. If anything this seems to work against (A) as the transfer of ownership is public. (K), (L) So it seems we're using being more of a pain in the Bazaar as a defense against this system? Seems more like an endorsement to me. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25773
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:19:05 -
[3378] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Not entirely true.
Let N be the sum total of characters in Eve with more than 5 million SP. Let K be the sum total of SP of these N characters. The total number of SP that could, in theory make it onto the market is:
K - N*5,000,000.
That is the upper limit on SP that could find its way into the market.
In reality we will probably never see that number on the market.
Thus, there is going to be a limit.
The fact, that over time more and more SP are being generated does not imply non-scarcity. After we are growing more food as time goes by how can there ever be starvation and malnutrition?
Pay to win means no upper limit. That's the point. The limit only exists to RL poor players.
Starvation exists because of politics and logistics. Neither of those affects the EVE market in any way.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3177
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:19:37 -
[3379] - Quote
Mike, what personal reasone you have to dislike this idea? How it will affects you personally?[/quote]
Actually I do not see how it affects me directly, if that is what you mean. But I tend to look beyond myself when considering changes to Eve. Kind of why I am on the CSM. Not just to feather my own nest.
As I said in the long quote . . . it will change the dynamic and the flavour of the game. If sold or marketed incorrectly it WILL look like a money grab where it is a subscription game that also needs microtransactions to stay current. I spoke about this on Podside, last night, about the financial divide it may create between the poor and the rich. I was told the solution was not to be 'poor'.
What about the divide between the casual and the hardcore?
Mainly I am trying to figure out WHO this is for and who it benefits.
any ideas?
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25773
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:23:32 -
[3380] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:I'm just going to address this point, since I feel the others have already been counter-argued.
It is true, that EvE attempts to have players build characters and personalities. EvE have indeed spawned many in-game celebrities like, Chribba, The Mittani, James 315, etc.
But none of these players have become popular because of their SP pools. It is the deeds and their reputation that have made them popular. I don't think anyone have become popular because of SP alone, so I don't see how this change would devalue a character. The "value/reputation" of a character is still based on its deeds and actions, and not the possibility to inject some extra SP into their skill queue.
Interchagability is a slippery slope. Today it's SPs. Tomorrow it's character and Corp names. Day after it's race and gender.
It's not SP alone that's made these characters popular, but SP has a contribution. It's not like we know Chribba for his solo PVP mastery, or Chessur for his hisec mining dread. Their specifically allocated skill points have turned them into the characters we know today. Trying to divorce the SP from the character is a mistake.. it is the same mistake CCP is making.
And no, none of my other points have been counter-argued. But feel free to try.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
151
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:24:54 -
[3381] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: Pay to win means no upper limit. That's the point. The limit only exists to RL poor players.
Starvation exists because of politics and logistics. Neither of those affects the EVE market in any way.
It would be true, that this would be P2W if there did not exists a cap on skills.
Luckily, it is the case, that you can only be so great "skill-wise" when you pilot each ship. A huge amount of SP dumped on one character is useless, since you will never be able to use these skills for one task. You will be able to do many things, but each thing you do, is still on par with a specialized character.
This, combined with how EvE combat works have already proven, that this is really not P2W. It is pay to progress, giving people the option to more rapidly get the skills they desire for a fee. Since these skill points, have been extracted from other characters, the total SP amount is the same or less within the game.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25773
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:25:05 -
[3382] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:@Sibyyl
Funny thing about the cons of the Baraar: (A) is irrelevant for buyers with existing social connections, benefiting established players over new ones, like we need more of that. (B)-(F) seem pretty irrelevant, you either accept the characters features and function or not, and if you do these aren't an issue. (G),(J) I'm not sure what the "con" is there. That there is a cost to doing business imposed by CCP? (H) Again, not sure what the issue is in itself. If anything this seems to work against (A) as the transfer of ownership is public. (K), (L) So it seems we're using being more of a pain in the Bazaar as a defense against this system? Seems more like an endorsement to me.
Saying these are not cons is not enough.
Put your feet in the fire and give me arguments as to why these aren't cons.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1762
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:28:17 -
[3383] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:...
Actually I do not see how it affects me directly, if that is what you mean. But I tend to look beyond myself when considering changes to Eve. Kind of why I am on the CSM. Not just to feather my own nest.
As I said in the long quote . . . it will change the dynamic and the flavour of the game. If sold or marketed incorrectly it WILL look like a money grab where it is a subscription game that also needs microtransactions to stay current. I spoke about this on Podside, last night, about the financial divide it may create between the poor and the rich. I was told the solution was not to be 'poor'.
What about the divide between the casual and the hardcore?
Mainly I am trying to figure out WHO this is for and who it benefits.
any ideas?
m
Almost certainly not the new players unless the lay out a reasonable sum of RL cash. It makes me feel very uncomfortable about the whole thing. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25773
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:28:55 -
[3384] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Sibyyl wrote: Pay to win means no upper limit. That's the point. The limit only exists to RL poor players.
Starvation exists because of politics and logistics. Neither of those affects the EVE market in any way.
It would be true, that this would be P2W if there did not exists a cap on skills. Luckily, it is the case, that you can only be so great "skill-wise" when you pilot each ship. A huge amount of SP dumped on one character is useless, since you will never be able to use these skills for one task. You will be able to do many things, but each thing you do, is still on par with a specialized character. This, combined with how EvE combat works have already proven, that this is really not P2W. It is pay to progress, giving people the option to more rapidly get the skills they desire for a fee. Since these skill points, have been extracted from other characters, the total SP amount is the same or less within the game.
I'll flip the argument on you. If you think SP is completely irrelevant to gameplay, why are you arguing in favor of a new mechanic for trading SPs?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
66
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:30:49 -
[3385] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:
Mainly I am trying to figure out WHO this is for and who it benefits.
any ideas?
m
in my opinion two kind of ppl will benefit from this.
1. thiefes, spys, ppl with bad reputation. they can recycle their character into one or several new ones and can play without caring about the consequences of their actions wich is in my opinion a break with a core principle of eve.
2. ppl (probably older players) who need to be able to use something quickly. a cynodude, a logidude, a scandude... whatever. if there is no time to wait for a fitting character on the bazaar, grab some money and create whatever you need. wich (in my opinion) also breaks with a core principle. as i already said, the whole point of skills and skillpoints is that you're not meant to learn something new instantly.
new players will probably not benefit. they will buy skillpoints and then realize that they don't understand the game anyways.
oh wait... and ccp will benefit... more moneh (more moneh for ccp is a good idea but not this way please) |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:34:39 -
[3386] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: Part 4: SP Trading will be abused.
Let me list the ways: 1. SP mules making passive income on countless accounts 2. People blowing away the max 2700 SP per hour limit. Now there is no upper limit so characters could gain as much SP as they want per hour, because sky's the limit for an IRL rich player 3. Large alliances will be able to afford SP packets for their rookie line members. Small alliance won't be able to. 4. Instant gratification for Alliance Tournament participation. Cash in SPs and enlist as a contender (maybe Elise considers to be a good thing). Can you see how this will be abused when combined with #3? 5. People un-biomassing old characters to cash in on SPs. 6. EVE quitters subscribing for 1 month to cash in on SPs. 7. RMT RMT RMT RMT RMT 8. Awoxers, corp thieves, spies recycled with only a 20% hit in SPs 9. It will perpetuate the myth that SPs make you win EVE to people who will fork out money to chase this myth. This will be one of the biggest exploits that rookies will face coming into EVE, and when they realize SPs don't make them good players they will quit.
(1) If this becomes as terribly widespread as claimed I can't see the price of SP hovering too much above the cost of the extractor, especially when accounts which have other means of generating plex are factored in (PI/Mining fleet accounts/etc). These accounts not needing to fund the account on SP alone and the resulting possible drop in price of SP could well lead to SP farm accounts not being sustainable on their own returns. Or not, who knows. (2) This is an issue why? (3) What large alliances can provide is already different in scale. (4) We have participants vetted by skill over SP, not seeing the problem. (5), (6) So we have a small spike between that and current subscribers trimming accounts, making the packets initial high price likely drop quickly assisting with accessibility, an overall positive. Room for abuse, but just needs policy vetted beforehand (unbiomassed characters cannot use extractors/etc) (7) From who? Buyers or sellers? Sellers unlikely since a functioning legal market without repercussion exists, buyers for the same reasons, unless insinuating that sellers are using it to create isk reserves for sale, but the Bazaar can hold the same function. (8) Are we assuming these roles train to 50m SP? Are we further assuming the 100+ extractors to transfer SP will be viewed as a trivial expense regularly? (9)Considering that this notion already has players looking at multi-billion purchases that disassociate themselves with their chosen identities reducing the overhead and strengthening their character investment seems like an overall positive. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
151
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:34:59 -
[3387] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote: Mainly I am trying to figure out WHO this is for and who it benefits.
any ideas?
m
I think, this will mainly attract people who already have friends playing EvE and wants to join whatever they are doing.
I'll continue to elaborate my failed attempt to get some IRL friends to join EvE. I mainly do frigate PvP in EvE, and the idea was that they'd join up and we'd roam around in frigates. But even with frigates, there is still at least maybe a week or two of training time. The activities they did in the meantime, while waiting for these core skills to get trained, was not enough to keep them hooked on EvE.
This change would give the possibility of getting them more quickly above the initial skill barrier, and out doing frigate PvP.
I also think, this will somewhat attract people who are subbing and making enough in-game ISK, that they could see this SP injection item as being a realistic goal to aim at. Keeping them motivated to get out in space and farm ISK.
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Rammix
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
320
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:39:26 -
[3388] - Quote
Ransu Asanari wrote:Go back and read your own devblog - give us ways to rename our characters and reskin them, and we will pay you to let us do it. But keep away from things that affect gameplay, because we remember, and Greed is Not Good. This.
I'm absolutely against the OP's idea.
OpenSUSE 13.2, wine 1.7.32
Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
|
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
151
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:40:03 -
[3389] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: I'll flip the argument on you. If you think SP is completely irrelevant to gameplay, why are you arguing in favor of a new mechanic for trading SPs?
I am actually an advocate of completely removing skills, and letting ISK alone decide on what assets you fly and possess.
However, the game would need a complete overhaul in order for such a system to work. So I think this SP trading system, is a decent middle-ground. It gives the possibility for new players to skip some training, hopefully getting them faster into whatever activity they enjoy.
I simply don't believe the SP queue is a fun game mechanic. The fun in EvE lies in the interaction between players, not in waiting for a digital bar to fill up.
|
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1274
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:42:34 -
[3390] - Quote
I have removed some off-topic posts and replies quoting them.
Quote:27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:44:00 -
[3391] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Saying these are not cons is not enough.
Put your feet in the fire and give me arguments as to why these aren't cons. I just did for the ones that actually make sense as cons to begin with. For the rest questioning the logic should be more than fine as a claim worth making should be a claim worth justifying.
Sibyyl wrote:Edit: Let me be clear. "Pain" is not a defense of anything. We are arguing a system with Pros and Cons. My point is besides the ISK cost, SP Trading has no cons. Putting a higher ISK cost on a notoriously pay to win mechanism is not a Con at all.
And what you're calling "pain" is what I call expected logistics of playing EVE. Are you sure you're an EVE player? Actually yes, you are arguing the 2 systems are incomparable due to the cons surrounding the Bazaar but not present in the proposed, and that as a result SP transfer is distinct and bad.
Regarding logistics, that's just a transfer from the character being a product competing against others to a packet that can't create the same unique draws and thus becomes a more competitive product with it's own logistical hurdles. It doesn't eliminate the concept, but migrates it to a better product.
As for whether I'm sure I'm an eve player, are you confused about the forum you're on?
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9321
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:45:53 -
[3392] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:
Mainly I am trying to figure out WHO this is for and who it benefits.
any ideas?
m
I have some ideas.
I feel it will benefit the same people that already take advantage of the ability to bypass the grind by using the Character Bazaar.
It will not be specifically be new people. It will not be specifically older players. Gankers, alt builders, Awoxxers, etc. Just people who are willing to pay up front to jump ahead in the SP grind. As they do now.
There is no specific demographic that uses the CB. Though it seems to be slightly weighted toward new players. Still plenty of people, vets mostly, buying FOTM characters and high SP capital characters.
As I have said before, the people who are inclined to purchase characters for whatever reason will possibly take advantage of SP packs while those that don't currently buy characters are unlikely to suddenly change their minds about spending more money on top of the subscription just because there is another SP buying option available.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25776
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:47:13 -
[3393] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: (2) This is an issue why?
It's an issue because as long as you pay more money you can train faster than 2700/hr. By definition it's pay to win because another RL poor player can't do anything inside the game to catch up to accelerated training rates.
(3) What large alliances can provide is already different in scale.
If you think is a problem (and you should), then why arm them with SPs as another item in the toolbox? Malcanis's Law tells us newbies will not benefit proportionately. In fact, they will be at a greater disadvantage.
(4) We have participants vetted by skill over SP, not seeing the problem.
Do you know why some AT contestants train Rigging skills to V? It's not for the sake of watching the SP counter tick.
(5), (6) So we have a small spike between that and current subscribers trimming accounts, making the packets initial high price likely drop quickly assisting with accessibility, an overall positive. Room for abuse, but just needs policy vetted beforehand (unbiomassed characters cannot use extractors/etc)
I haven't seen any supporters add any required caveats to the system. Are you admitting that the system as it stands is open to abuse?
(7) From who? Buyers or sellers? Sellers unlikely since a functioning legal market without repercussion exists, buyers for the same reasons, unless insinuating that sellers are using it to create isk reserves for sale, but the Bazaar can hold the same function.
Sellers will RMT and CCP has no way that I understand of preventing it. How do you prevent RMT on skill packets? How would CCP even know? Big alliances are going to be giving these things away to newbies.
(8) Are we assuming these roles train to 50m SP? Are we further assuming the 100+ extractors to transfer SP will be viewed as a trivial expense regularly?
Corp thief, awoxer, spy roles are not >50m.
(9)Considering that this notion already has players looking at multi-billion purchases that disassociate themselves with their chosen identities reducing the overhead and strengthening their character investment seems like an overall positive.
Ripping off new players is a bad business model. Tradable SPs are there for new players. These SPs won't make them better players. How many newbies have you run into that "get" the game quickly enough that they would need to buy SPs? Do you think the newbies who "get" the game complain about waiting for training? You see the paradox in CCP's hypothesis behind this change?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25776
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:56:00 -
[3394] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Actually yes, you are arguing the 2 systems are incomparable due to the cons surrounding the Bazaar but not present in the proposed, and that as a result SP transfer is distinct and bad.
Regarding logistics, that's just a transfer from the character being a product competing against others to a packet that can't create the same unique draws and thus becomes a more competitive product with it's own logistical hurdles. It doesn't eliminate the concept, but migrates it to a better product. SP Trading is unbalanced, as it stands. It's un-auditable, RMT-able, comes without consequences, without logistics problems.. and all it asks for in return in (maybe) more ISK.
Calling it more competitive is like saying me giving to 10M ISK immediately is "more competitive" than you mining in hisec for an hour. Gimme's are "more competitive" but we're arguing against putting gimme's in the game in the first place.
Quote:As for whether I'm sure I'm an eve player, are you confused about the forum you're on? Calling character reputations, fixed character names, logistics.. all of these things that are a part of the EVE experience "a pain" is mischaracterizing the argument. "It sucks to have to ship things" is not enough of an argument unless we're talking about revamping the entire game and how character reputations and moving stuff around works.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
130
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:56:29 -
[3395] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:
As I have said before, the people who are inclined to purchase characters for whatever reason will possibly take advantage of SP packs while those that don't currently buy characters are unlikely to suddenly change their minds about spending more money on top of the subscription just because there is another SP buying option available.
Nonsense, there is far more incentive to buy a 500k skillpack than a 10, 20, 30 million sp character. What you are saying is as if people who cannot afford a holiday home wouldn't be interested in a 2 week holiday in the same resort.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1648
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 23:07:07 -
[3396] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: It's an issue because as long as you pay more money you can train faster than 2700/hr. By definition it's pay to win because another RL poor player can't do anything inside the game to catch up to accelerated training rates.
Yes, they can. They can earn more isk through superior in game knowledge and use that isk to procure the SP packets that are only sold via isk. It's exactly how PLEX functions now, removing the need for IRL monetary resources by being "Good at EvE".
If you think is a problem (and you should), then why arm them with SPs as another item in the toolbox? Malcanis's Law tells us newbies will not benefit proportionately. In fact, they will be at a greater disadvantage.
Why should it be a problem? Why shouldn't corps and alliances be expected to compete for potential membership and have options to offer potential recruits and members to reinforce their competitive abilities? If we're applying Malcanis' Law on a corp/alliance level we're pretty much saying the idea of corps being of value o their members is wrong.
Do you know why some AT contestants train Rigging skills to V? It's not for the sake of watching the SP counter tick.
No, it's for the extra performance and/or fitting options entailed, which I still don't see as an issue.
I haven't seen any supporters add any required caveats to the system. Are you admitting that the system as it stands is open to abuse?
Yes, and I've made a few suggestions and requests of this nature, including a cap at which SP can no longer be applied to a character, possible more aggressive scaling of diminishing returns, and the suggestion that skill removal should not be possible to free up more prerequisite SP. I'd be willing to add more as I think of other plausible abuses. And the AUR price still needs evaluated.
Sellers will RMT and CCP has no way that I understand of preventing it. How do you prevent RMT on skill packets? How would CCP even know? Big alliances are going to be giving these things away to newbies.
This is a point I must concede for lack of understanding of how CCP finds and tracks RMT activity.
Corp thief, awoxer, spy roles are not >50m.
Then we're not getting a 10% loss as 4.5m SP, or 9% of 50m is gone and untransferrable, adding to that the loss of efficiency after 5m on adding the SP. At lower SP totals trained the loss becomes greater due to that same level of unrecoverable SP.
Ripping off new players is a bad business model. Tradable SPs are there for new players. These SPs won't make them better players. How many newbies have you run into that "get" the game quickly enough that they would need to buy SPs? Do you think the newbies who "get" the game complain about waiting for training? You see the paradox in CCP's hypothesis behind this change?
I actually do see new players complain from time to time about SP, we also know that the majority of characters bough are to new players if the dev posts are to be believed. We already have a system that encourages far greater single expenditures from new players and thus for those players probably gives the same feeling you argue against in greater form than granular packets would, or so the reason follows. It's not a paradox so much as an admission that so long as the skill system and the Bazaar exist we will have a perception issue and this could ease that by making it less daunting at the market level.
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Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3179
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 23:08:32 -
[3397] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Astroyka wrote:General Lootit wrote: Mike, what personal reasone you have to dislike this idea? How it will affects you personally?
I really hope Mike is not speaking too much from personal opinion, he's a CSM and should be speaking from a wider viewpoint, which I believe he is. He definitely speaking for him selfe in that case Mike Azariah wrote: I dislike the Character Bazaar so of course I will dislike the new TSP's as they are similar (not the same, though)
but most personal opinion(without any personal reason) I could read from him about this topic is Mike Azariah wrote: I am also against this. I could go into details but . . . this feels wrong to me. Against what I thought the game to be.
I mix reactions between personal and looking out over all the game. Emotional ones are personal. The questions I have are more general and far reaching. The fears of PLEX going through the roof do not directly effect me as I do not plex.
I am large, I contain multitudes . . . .
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9321
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 23:10:05 -
[3398] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:
As I have said before, the people who are inclined to purchase characters for whatever reason will possibly take advantage of SP packs while those that don't currently buy characters are unlikely to suddenly change their minds about spending more money on top of the subscription just because there is another SP buying option available.
Nonsense, there is far more incentive to buy a 500k skillpack than a 10, 20, 30 million sp character. What you are saying is as if people who cannot afford a holiday home wouldn't be interested in a 2 week holiday in the same resort. I won't be buying any SP packs. I see no incentive in paying up to 100 times the going rate for SP (in an extreme adding SP to a 300M SP character example). But anything over whatever the lowest tier ends up being will be more expensive that can be purchased in the CB in the form of a focused, unused character.
People will figure that out soon enough. As well, if CCP was just 'selling vacations', no one would be getting so wound up. All the tears in here are from people thinking people are going to be buying dozens of SP packs. Not one or two to get started.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
706
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 23:10:08 -
[3399] - Quote
M must stand for manipulative cuz we all know you care for no one but yourself and image. |
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3181
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 23:16:26 -
[3400] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:M must stand for manipulative cuz we all know you care for no one but yourself and image. Thank you thank you.
On that note I am outa here and on an airplane to chat with players and devs and other people in Las Vegas.
But since I am not running next year . . . why am I still doing all this, eh?
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
131
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 23:20:04 -
[3401] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:M must stand for manipulative cuz we all know you care for no one but yourself and image.
Where do you get off talking about people the way you do simply because they do not share your viewpoint ? It renders everything you say on the subject useless since it all just comes off as a personal attack, an emotional ad hominem rather than reason.
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Sean Crees
Sean's Safe Haven
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 23:21:13 -
[3402] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: Part 3: SP Trading is Pay to Win
I define "pay to win" as any feature that is locked behind a paywall that another RL poor gamer can't unlock no matter how much time and effort he spends in the game.
Is PLEX pay to win? No for 2 reasons: 1. Buying shinier things doesn't make you a better player automatically 2. A person can work hard enough in game and earn the ISK to get a PLEX
Is Character Bazaar pay to win? No for the same 2 reasons as I listed for PLEX.
Is SP Trading pay to win? It is, for these reasons: 1. SP Trading has no upper bound. If I make 1 SP mule on an account using MCT, I can give my main 1.6M SP per month (80% of 2M) extra. If I have 2 SP mules, my main gets 3.2M SP per month extra. The only upper bound is real money, and someone with lots of money can easily "out-perform" someone who is just playing the game without paying extra money. 2. CCP has not responded to the question of how they would prevent RMT on SP. My belief is that it's not possible. Characters are "big bundles" of SP connected to accounts that can be IP tracked to determined if they've switched hands. PLEXs are cheap enough officially during Amazon sales that it hardly makes much sense to RMT PLEX in the first place. But SP will be an ubiquitous currency that will be traded everywhere. And there is nothing that stops people not currently subscribed to the game from coming in and cashing out.
Wouldn't SP Trading fall under the same 2 points as PLEX and Character Bazaar?
1. Buying SP doesn't make you a better player automatically 2. A person can work hard enough in game and earn the isk to get a SP Packet.
How does that not work for SP packets, but works for PLEX and the Character Bazaar?
The only way this is P2W, is if PLEX and the Character Bazaar are also P2W. In a sense they are, but they all work very similarly. You can pay real money to get them to give you an edge beyond what someone has the capability of doing only through in game means.
I mean i can see the Pay 2 Win Argument, but i can't see it if you don't also admit that PLEX and chat Character Bazaar are also P2W and you're against those as well. Don't be a hypocrite. |
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
203
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 23:28:04 -
[3403] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:
As I have said before, the people who are inclined to purchase characters for whatever reason will possibly take advantage of SP packs while those that don't currently buy characters are unlikely to suddenly change their minds about spending more money on top of the subscription just because there is another SP buying option available.
Nonsense, there is far more incentive to buy a 500k skillpack than a 10, 20, 30 million sp character. What you are saying is as if people who cannot afford a holiday home wouldn't be interested in a 2 week holiday in the same resort. I won't be buying any SP packs. I see no incentive in paying up to 100 times the going rate for SP (in an extreme adding SP to a 300M SP character example). But anything over whatever the lowest tier ends up being will be more expensive that can be purchased in the CB in the form of a focused, unused character. People will figure that out soon enough. As well, if CCP was just 'selling vacations', no one would be getting so wound up. All the tears in here are from people thinking people are going to be buying dozens of SP packs. Not one or two to get started. Mr Epeen
If Citadels allow me to dock my titans and supers and use them all on one Account, ...I would be very tempted to add SP packs to my Account at over the 80m threshold allowing my main to switch between all 4 titans. Yes i can afford it with isk, no i wouldnt care about the price. I cant say i have ever seen any character in the Bazaar max skilled for every titan and super, but i could have it...(it would also allow me to choose the super for the situation without having 9 Super alts) Or i could choose to have all 9 of my super alts have the choice of flying the supers..so then ill have a fleet of 9 supers of the ship type i choose rather than having 81 super alts with supers sat in space.
However i wont as i would hate to see CCP profit from p2w. But if i wanted to do this, i could and have the isk reserves to do so. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9321
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 23:39:28 -
[3404] - Quote
TinkerHell wrote: I cant say i have ever seen any character in the Bazaar max skilled for every titan and super,
Need to actually look if you want to find something. You think you could SP pack that character for less than the 200+ billion it sold for?
I'll wait for you to do the math and get back to me. Don't forget to show your work.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
108
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 23:41:40 -
[3405] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:TinkerHell wrote: I cant say i have ever seen any character in the Bazaar max skilled for every titan and super,
Need to actually look if you want to find something. You think you could SP pack that character for less than the 200+ billion it sold for? I'll wait for you to do the math and get back to me. Don't forget to show your work. Mr Epeen
It is not maxed as he said. You fail. Again :shocker:
:D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9321
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 23:49:35 -
[3406] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:TinkerHell wrote: I cant say i have ever seen any character in the Bazaar max skilled for every titan and super,
Need to actually look if you want to find something. You think you could SP pack that character for less than the 200+ billion it sold for? I'll wait for you to do the math and get back to me. Don't forget to show your work. Mr Epeen It is not maxed as he said. You fail. Again :shocker: :D
LOL saw that coming. And I new it would be you. It's nice to have someone pick up the slack from Jenn. His stalking has been somewhat lackluster lately.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
108
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 23:54:30 -
[3407] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:TinkerHell wrote: I cant say i have ever seen any character in the Bazaar max skilled for every titan and super,
Need to actually look if you want to find something. You think you could SP pack that character for less than the 200+ billion it sold for? I'll wait for you to do the math and get back to me. Don't forget to show your work. Mr Epeen It is not maxed as he said. You fail. Again :shocker: :D LOL saw that coming. And I new it would be you. It's nice to have someone pick up the slack from Jenn. His stalking has been somewhat lackluster lately. Mr Epeen
I have to apologize in advance as I will disappoint you, since enough was said and hopefully CSM and CCP will work it out there is no need to feed trolls here anymore. Still, I might add some now and then though :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
132
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 23:55:49 -
[3408] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:TinkerHell wrote: I cant say i have ever seen any character in the Bazaar max skilled for every titan and super,
Need to actually look if you want to find something. You think you could SP pack that character for less than the 200+ billion it sold for? I'll wait for you to do the math and get back to me. Don't forget to show your work. Mr Epeen It is not maxed as he said. You fail. Again :shocker: :D LOL saw that coming. And I new it would be you. It's nice to have someone pick up the slack from Jenn. His stalking has been somewhat lackluster lately. Mr Epeen Hardly stalking when someone points out your bombastic put down is factually incorrect |
Marsha Mallow
2648
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 00:05:26 -
[3409] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:unless we're talking about revamping the entire game and how character reputations and moving stuff around works. Revamping the entire game seems to have been in motion for at least 6 months if not longer, but maybe that's just my take on it.
Is that such a bad thing?
As an aside, 'character reputation' might actually be reinforced by a change which encourages people to invest their time and ISK into one rather than multiple alts. And if they train those alts from scratch themselves - even using SP boosters - they're possibly less likely to be willing to sell the character later on if they're naughty. Reinforcing the reputation/consequence principle rather than undermining it is as likely as increased anonymity if people are more invested in their mains. Personal attachment counts more on alts trained from scratch, as does rl $ investment.
One of the benefits of a more fluid type of SP system would be that instead of being encouraged to roll 2-3-ridiculous numbers of accounts in order to specialise, people would just be able to try different playstyles on a single alt. Then actually play it to the max without being trapped into running multiple accounts. I've noticed ingame a real drop off from players who hit 2-3 years and have finally got a well specced subcap/cap/super alt, bought all of those ships etc. Then sit there with no further goals and start moaning about the sub cost of maintaining multiple accounts. A dynamic character training system might accelerate that process, although it depends upon the playstyles they engage in ingame and how fast they exhaust those possibilities. People might drop out at 6 months having exhausted the content, but if more of them play and the amount of revenue they generate is equivalent I'm really not sure I care. Or that there's any evidence to suggest they'd be massively disruptive to the rest of the game. Having said that, I find Nigel Farage hilarious, and there are parts of this discussion that could very easily be compared to that type of rhetoric.
And for what it's worth, existing players who chose to continue subbing and training their characters without engaging in any SP extraction or injection won't be affected anyway. Other than to look at newer players using a different system with annoyance and resentment. Well, they already do that to people who buy characters, and I'm not sure their disapproval is particularly relevant. This reminds me a lot of that discussion over Drone skill changes in which a number of people protested newer players being allocated 'free' SP. Despite them having had the benefit of those skills for years. Their motivations were transparently vindictive in that topic, if anyone remembers it.
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
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Marsha Mallow
2648
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 00:11:42 -
[3410] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:M must stand for manipulative cuz we all know you care for no one but yourself and image. Thank you thank you. On that note I am outa here and on an airplane to chat with players and devs and other people in Las Vegas. But since I am not running next year . . . why am I still doing all this, eh? m M people are the best players. It is known. Have fun in Vegas, cheers for the work on this topic, and don't let the nerdraging get to you.
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
213
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 00:39:08 -
[3411] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:M must stand for manipulative cuz we all know you care for no one but yourself and image. Thank you thank you. On that note I am outa here and on an airplane to chat with players and devs and other people in Las Vegas. But since I am not running next year . . . why am I still doing all this, eh? m Well thank you from myself for being one of the active CSMs on this case on posting your thoughts on this forum, I appreciate that.
Was there actually any CSMs who were in favour of this idea, they all seem to be laying low at the moment with only yourself and a couple of others bothering to contribute to the discussions on here.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3551
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 00:41:59 -
[3412] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Not entirely true.
Let N be the sum total of characters in Eve with more than 5 million SP. Let K be the sum total of SP of these N characters. The total number of SP that could, in theory make it onto the market is:
K - N*5,000,000.
That is the upper limit on SP that could find its way into the market.
In reality we will probably never see that number on the market.
Thus, there is going to be a limit.
The fact, that over time more and more SP are being generated does not imply non-scarcity. After we are growing more food as time goes by how can there ever be starvation and malnutrition?
Pay to win means no upper limit. That's the point. The limit only exists to RL poor players. Starvation exists because of politics and logistics. Neither of those affects the EVE market in any way.
Okay, let me try it again.
The SP have to come from existing characters. At any given time that number is a finite number. Ergo, at any given time, the number of SP is finite.
This is pretty much a fact. Calling it pay to win does not entitle your or Elise Randolph to dodge facts.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3551
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 00:45:50 -
[3413] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Delegate wrote:How did you infer the "most of them new customers" part? CCP Terminus wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:CCP Terminus wrote: Roughly 70 characters are traded per day, not per month. Something like 25000 a year give or take.
Some more data: - Most traded characters are 50 million SP or lower. - A good portion of trades are to newer players (measured by new customers not just new accounts).
Are you able to distinguish new accounts from alt accounts? Not perfectly but yes, that's what measured by new customers not just new accounts implies.
Basically that. Things like email addresses probably work pretty good. Similarly credit cards. It would not be perfect as CCP Terminus noted, but it would capture most of it.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 00:52:29 -
[3414] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: I define "pay to win" as any feature that is locked behind a paywall that another RL poor gamer can't unlock no matter how much time and effort he spends in the game.
Is SP Trading pay to win? It is, for these reasons: 1. SP Trading has no upper bound. If I make 1 SP mule on an account using MCT, I can give my main 1.6M SP per month (80% of 2M) extra. If I have 2 SP mules, my main gets 3.2M SP per month extra. The only upper bound is real money, and someone with lots of money can easily "out-perform" someone who is just playing the game without paying extra money. 2. CCP has not responded to the question of how they would prevent RMT on SP. My belief is that it's not possible. Characters are "big bundles" of SP connected to accounts that can be IP tracked to determined if they've switched hands. PLEXs are cheap enough officially during Amazon sales that it hardly makes much sense to RMT PLEX in the first place. But SP will be an ubiquitous currency that will be traded everywhere. And there is nothing that stops people not currently subscribed to the game from coming in and cashing out.
First case is not pay2win mechanic by your defenition because everyone will be able to buy extractor and injector on maket without any RL money involved. In second case I can't understand why cashing out is problem for you. They will dump injectors into market hence price will drop(so it also benifitial for not paying players). Or it just lowing peasure on supply which means same thing.
Sibyyl wrote: 1. SP mules making passive income on countless accounts 2. People blowing away the max 2700 SP per hour limit. Now there is no upper limit so characters could gain as much SP as they want per hour, because sky's the limit for an IRL rich player 3. Large alliances will be able to afford SP packets for their rookie line members. Small alliance won't be able to. 4. Instant gratification for Alliance Tournament participation. Cash in SPs and enlist as a contender (maybe Elise considers to be a good thing). Can you see how this will be abused when combined with #3? 5. People un-biomassing old characters to cash in on SPs. 6. EVE quitters subscribing for 1 month to cash in on SPs. 7. RMT RMT RMT RMT RMT 8. Awoxers, corp thieves, spies recycled with only a 20% hit in SPs 9. It will perpetuate the myth that SPs make you win EVE to people who will fork out money to chase this myth. This will be one of the biggest exploits that rookies will face coming into EVE, and when they realize SPs don't make them good players they will quit.
1.First you need to purshe for PLEX so it not so profitable as you might think at first sight. 2. Rich people can buy everything righy now, even titan toon without SP trading system. But it doesn't matter much becase he will be blown up without playing experience and support of people from allince. 3.Join if not able to defeat. 4.Can't understand that. 5.SP is assert. Transfering asserts is not abusing. 6.Same thing. 7.Don't know much about that but people who buying stuff with RL money already mentioned. 8.Good for them. More drama, pirates and spies stories. Every story need antogonist. It would be funny when corp will boosting spies and thievs. So maybe because of that they wont boost every rookie. 9.Will see
Sibyyl wrote: Part 2: SP Trading devalues characters.
EVE is a personality game. Our personalities are tied to characters, whether or not we admit it to ourselves. Chribba is unmistakably Chribba and no one else has the reputation he does. The reason why just about every CSM member and Chribba are against SP Trading is because SP Trading modularizes a character.
The argument is that the character is simply the sum of its parts. Deconstruct and reconstruct SPs and functionally you have the same thing.
A character is more than the sum of its parts, and in order for the idea of a character retaining value, the SPs it has trained have to remain "trapped" inside that character. Why? Because everything else the character does is also "trapped" inside that character.. the metagaming choices she's made, the history she has with others, the Corps she's joined, the ships she has destroyed. None of these things can be wiped out because I believe we have an unspoken agreement that in EVE what's happened to a character is something they keep for the rest of their life. How can Skill Points, which is the most fundamental non-meta mechanic in the game, suddenly be divorced from characters wholesale without devaluing characters themselves?
The argument is that if you don't like your skills, and you want a different skillset, then go to the Bazaar and buy another character. But in doing so you have to sacrifice the reputation and the name of the character you have now.. the one you don't like so much. A character's race and gender have massive significance inside the EVE roleplaying community. A character's name has massive significance in all of EVE's communities. These character qualities are part of an important sacrifice that is missing in SP Trading, and simply putting a higher ISK/SP price on it is missing the point.
Actually my charachter will be more valuble for me when I will be able to pump SP into because I have character which I like and SP points which I need. So it will be meaning more than char without skill and char without personality. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
182
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 00:55:17 -
[3415] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:This is being done pure and simply for profit, whether you like it or not and like i said before you really think it will stay if they can make yet another whole new revenue stream from another added F2P feature of microtransactions that hit at a core principal of the game they said would never alter. My personal take on this proposal is that CCP find itself increasingly out of options to maintain the revenue stream. I personally would prefer paying higher sub price, than witnessing this SP market go online.
No matter what shape or form, SP trading is cancer for Eve. But with my proposal (on pg.156 of this thread), it's not deadly cancer. In it's current form the cancer is already at stage 3 and Eve will rot within a year. |
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1275
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 01:04:48 -
[3416] - Quote
I've removed some personal attacks. If you'd like to have one-on-one flame fests or just tickle each other, please use EVE mail.
Quote:4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
182
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 01:06:58 -
[3417] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:I hope CCP don't introduce this new feature around the 10th of next month. Then the (possibly) massive drop off in players online due to Fallout 4 will instead be used as a justification for the I-told-you-so people to party in the streets because they were so right. It takes a special kind of stupid to joyfully dance at the prospect of being right that the game they love is dying. But there you go. They will dance and they will be wrong. But what will they say 100 hours of FO4 later when all those people start to get the EVE shakes and return to the game? How will they then explain why the numbers are climbing? They'll most certainly not have quit as many are threatening to do, so they'll be around to see the rebound. Should be interesting to see the backpedaling then. Or the whole issue may be moot as they've all moved on to the next big thing that is causing that unstable sky to fall on them. Mr Epeen
What would there be to backpedal to with all your chars biomassed?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3551
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 01:17:19 -
[3418] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: Is SP Trading pay to win? It is, for these reasons: 1. SP Trading has no upper bound. If I make 1 SP mule on an account using MCT, I can give my main 1.6M SP per month (80% of 2M) extra. If I have 2 SP mules, my main gets 3.2M SP per month extra. The only upper bound is real money, and someone with lots of money can easily "out-perform" someone who is just playing the game without paying extra money.
I'm sorry, but this just flunks basic math.
Okay, so if you train a character in perpetuity yes, there is infinite skill points.
If I work in perpetuity I earn infinite income.
So, there is no upper bound in this case for either money or skills.
Problem: Nobody lives forever.
So, now we put a non-zero probability on dying, then both of those streams have, essentially, a discount rate. Discounted sums, often converge to...wait for it...wait....finite values.
Further, who cares if in 10 years you'll have a maxed out alt? It is that discounting thing. In 10 years I'll have a main with 285 million SP. What does that mean for me right now? Not much. So....again, this kind of "there is no upper bound" is like, okay and? It is like noting that in the infinite horizon case my 401k will have infinite dollars....big deal, fat lot of good it does me now.
This kind of nonsense is just that.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3551
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 01:21:40 -
[3419] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
2. CCP has not responded to the question of how they would prevent RMT on SP. My belief is that it's not possible. Characters are "big bundles" of SP connected to accounts that can be IP tracked to determined if they've switched hands. PLEXs are cheap enough officially during Amazon sales that it hardly makes much sense to RMT PLEX in the first place. But SP will be an ubiquitous currency that will be traded everywhere. And there is nothing that stops people not currently subscribed to the game from coming in and cashing out.
Uhhhmmm, no. SP is not currency. Just because something is on the market does not make it a currency. There is a market for cars, that does not make cars currency. Could you trade a car for another commodity? Yes, but that does not make cars currency that is called bartering.
Now, if we only used cars to buy and sell things then we could say cars are currency.
Further, how is a player not currently subscribed going to "cash out"? He'd have to subscribe again at a minimum. And by cashing out is that some sort of RMT?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
182
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 02:09:24 -
[3420] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Delegate wrote:
My personal take on this proposal is that CCP find itself increasingly out of options to maintain the revenue stream. I personally would prefer paying higher sub price, than witnessing this SP market go online.
WOD, Dust, Gunjack, Valkyrie - who do you think pays for these developments? If you extract massive amounts of capital from the project that earns you this - what is going to happen if not enough is left to satisfy these customers or if you need more because you wastet these investments, canceling projects? Do a simple math what ccp has to pay for eve fanfest or vegas and think about what could have happend to this game if all this money and devtime had been used from the beginning to primarily develop eve instead? Still wating on them to keep their promises from 2011: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ0k0ioROUo That-¦s a timeframe others develop complete and complex AAA games
Very good point.
CCP has squandered the revenues they made from Eve on other non-profitable ventures as stated in the post above. And now in order to compensate for those losses they're trying to dig in deeper and milk their only bread winner even further??
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
182
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 02:14:07 -
[3421] - Quote
Charlie Nonoke wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Charlie Nonoke wrote: By your calculations, there's also another advantage, if a newbie has 12 PLEX to spend, he would, and I know I would, rather burn up the 12 PLEX initially for a 30m injection, rather than spend 12 PLEX for a year's subscription, and only passive train about 23m SP, assuming 2700SP\hr, which also is impossible to achieve because of remaps and Cybernetics V.
Sure he misses the 12 months playtime, but he gets more SP, and gets instant delivery. All while only spending 12 PLEX.
BTW, I also hate the idea.
As opposed to now where that players buys a 30+M SP character on the bazaar with PLEX left over to add gametime or buy ships? And if you hate the idea of buying SP, I'm sure I'll find posts in your history where you are railing at the idea that characters can be purchased already. Mr Epeen I'm not against the character bazaar and its function, because skills were already tailored by the original capsuleer and decisions were made by him. The new buyer has to accept those decisions, like neg stat, corp thief, crap name. This idea negates all that history and is essentially paying for SP. Character Bazaar is also paying for SP, but it comes at the price that it's not 1st hand.
Please try your best to get this Dave. Try harder and harder if you have to.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
182
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 02:23:41 -
[3422] - Quote
Lori Tempa wrote: Negative status is fixed with tags now. Corp thief means nothing after you've bought a character, crap name is something that a lot of people have Charlie.
The character bazaar is paying for sp no matter how you try to spin it. This method is better than the character bazaar because of the reasons you listed. I don't see why these disadvatages are needed when someone is trying to get something they need in terms of a trained pilot.
Character Bazaar is buying SP, but as stated, it comes at a cost. That cost is something that's become acceptable. Now with this proposal CCP want's to get rid of that cost making it downright pay2win which is downright cancerous to any subscription game. It almost always marks the beginning of the end with MMO games and players (like myself) would gradually start to lose confidence in a game with the principles Eve built itself on. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1648
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 02:27:33 -
[3423] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Charlie Nonoke wrote:I'm not against the character bazaar and its function, because skills were already tailored by the original capsuleer and decisions were made by him. The new buyer has to accept those decisions, like neg stat, corp thief, crap name.
This idea negates all that history and is essentially paying for SP.
Character Bazaar is also paying for SP, but it comes at the price that it's not 1st hand. Please try your best to get this Dave. Try harder and harder if you have to. Are we still treating all of those aspects as universals? That every character for sale is a awoxing corp thief with terrible standings, or further pretending that this largely matters for those not in need of new social connections?
Further, so long as the character has the flexibility or specific functionality you are looking for how does the fact that someone else tailored it diminish that character or the functions of it you bought? |
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
706
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 02:32:56 -
[3424] - Quote
A good feature that will benefit the many should not be denied existence because it might be exploited by the few.
Any who say it should is without-a-doubt a downie.
Prove to me the levels of your retardation. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 02:39:07 -
[3425] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary.
the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea. The quantity is what's new, as you like saying so often, it's in the dev blog, the granular nature of these skill packets will make it more normal for new guys to buy them where it would be less usual to buy an entire character. This comes with a downside as new guys who can't afford a sub and skill packets will see their immediate peers (as someone else already pointed out) advancing more quickly than them. Your argument is obtuse and fails to recognise the importance of how new players perceive things. he's going to see some one buy SP packets, or a new character. if some one is going to pay to advance, they're going to pay to advance. pretending that'll only be the case because we're now selling SP a different way is laughable. if he can't afford to pay to advance and his peers can, he will be left behind regardless of whether or not this system is added to the game. i don't fail to recognise the importance, you fail to recognise it already exists and isn't new. So what your saying is - Those with plenty of disposable income that can afford to buy enhancements for their play style are the only ones CCP are interested in keeping as customers? Those who can't afford all the nice leaps in training or buying a char off the bazaar, get left behind and quit but that is ok because that is how it is now - This change is not going to help new player retention (the main goal) So why bother doing it at all? If new player retention is the main goal (as it would seem), the honest challenge is how effective this idea is for actual sustain. If the problem is finding nothing to do, is an extra million SP really a fix?
If the problem with the design is SP -- characters come to explore the game and are shown a gate.. and monetary options -- how much more interesting are "reduced (but-still-very) monetized" progressions? Packets should be 300M-ish, yeah? So, say they come upon ~ 1B for their introductory experience. They very plainly have the option of spending it on PLEX for the subscription.. but that's so much for what's a simple payment. Then, isn't it immediately clear how much more efficient it is paying real money -- and that they have no interest in that (note: there's already the money for the sub, and this is the market of F2P games)?
Maybe, "What is a few PLEX?" but then what? It's a huge stack of options that they don't get to play for a really diverse and deep sandbox, yet they've spent multiple wads on the idea.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Ulysses Meta
Xue Yuan
1
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Posted - 2015.10.19 03:01:41 -
[3426] - Quote
Its pretty obvious that Eve needs some fresh blood - more players that is - what i really cant see is why the entire "establishment" should be screwed in the process... What (tf) "options to help new players with progression" has to do with such a huge change in game doctrine? From what i see browsing the thread this new proposed "system" is at least challanged - and with valid and legit reasons - by most of the vets (bitter or not)... as it should be since the outcome would affect the entire foundation of their "vet" status... that is the main reason behind all the "NO"s posted or implied... it doesnt even matter they would have ALL the "echonomical" benefits from the change, that is an insignificant compensation for shaking the well established (and hard worked for) hierarcies... On the other hand the benefit in the "lets kick the new players (or characters) progression" IS actually something well worth to work for (not going to elaborate on that - both the developers and any eve player, new or old, should be well aware)... so...the main problem should be to accomodate the opposite views... i'd say a 20-30...50m cap on char SP who'd be able to "improve" using the new packets would do the trick... or maybe a better shaped "diminishing returns" system (for example 1% effectiveness on chars above 80m SP) would be a more resonable solution...
0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 10 million skillpoints = 450,000 unallocated skillpoints added 10 GÇô 15 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 15 GÇô 20 million skillpoints = 300,000 unallocated skillpoints added 20 GÇô40 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added 40 GÇô60 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added 60 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 20,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 80 million skillpoints = 5,000 unallocated skillpoints added
IF the above post looks bad the only thing to blame is my poor English spelling & vocabulary level(s)...
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Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
706
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 03:10:59 -
[3427] - Quote
There's quite a few things I would like to do much more effectively but cannot due to SP limitations.
Sure, I can do them now but since the act is balanced around max skill, it's terribly inefficient thus making it extremely hasslesome and barely accomplishable.
Because I cannot do these things in a manner that is enjoyable, I do not do them as often as I feel I would if it were possible to do them how CCP intended them to be done, at the required skills maximum level.
Because most of the things I want to do, I cannot, it means the few things I can do result in my not doing much most of the time.
Granted, if there's nothing I want to do available at that time, I can always alt tab and play league of legends or civ 5 while I sit in station on comms waiting for opportunities to present themselves. . . . .
But that doesn't seem like too great of a solution, go play other games, now does it?
And this is with my 10mil SP. Imagine how the n00bs 3-4 months in are faring. I bet they're all diamond level now.3+256+84+8+
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
182
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 03:29:51 -
[3428] - Quote
Etara Silverblade wrote:General Lootit wrote:When feature will be implemented then you will find out how much your skill points are worth. Right now my skillpoints are priceless and putting a price on them cheapens my loyalty to the game and the time I spent getting those skill points. Right now time in game equals skill points and after this is in, money will equal skill points. It's that simple and I will have none of it.
You won't be the only one. I'll be out as well. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
182
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 03:40:36 -
[3429] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I'm going to make a better argument against this new proposal than has been seen in the first 165 pages of this thread.
you can use this system to "bypass" prerequisites for ships. you can train the prerequisites for say, command ships, then extract all the leadership SP and still fly them.
there needs to be a check to ensure that you cannot extract sp from skills where you have trained something that requires the skill you are trying to extract. Man, really, I have no words for what your're doing in this thread. CCP Terminus wrote:The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare. We also plan on having this be something you can only do in stations, so you wouldn't be stuck in in space in a ship you can no longer fly.
He's a Dev alt, and the one who came up with this crap. He's gotta make himself look good or he may get fired, LOL. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
182
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 03:51:19 -
[3430] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Once this goes live I will be accepting SP pack donations for my Make Don ZOLA cry drive. The only thing he cares about is SP and I intend to acquire more than him. I won't lie to you folks. I'm at under 60 k SP right now so it'll take some dedication on your part. But if we all pull together on this you will see forum rage as you never have before. Mr Epeen
Figures why you support this. You want to inject some SP into your failed char. You fail at char creation so it's no wonder why you don't see the value in it.
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Redneck Robot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 03:52:02 -
[3431] - Quote
This seems like a great idea !
I am a new player, i want to play, but am told i need months of training to "fly this to join for that". so i am not sure i can play.
Should i sub account for 6 months and make nice training plan, and then just maybe never come back to EvE?
What if i could spend the same money to buy the 6 months of skills now, and REALLY get hooked and stay with game for years? sounds good to me.
Are you 5-10 year vets really scared of me spending $100 and getting 6 months closer to you in skills?
Couldn't i just buy uber pilot from bazaar now anyway and drive big scary ship to hunt you with if i wanted?
And sure, some mega rich can buy SP to max their toon out, but, uh, how is that so bad? if a guy has 100mil SP is 200 mil really gonna make him that much better?
Maybe it will,,,,so maybe make this JUST to help new guys...
Let anyone extract SP to sell, but make it ONLY work for toons with less then 10mil SP already to use.
Then "you" can sell those skills you dont want, i can get my 6 months catch up so i can fly T2 and join for things, and CCP can make money, Win-Win-Win
P.S. yes i know i can take my week old toon and kill rookie miners in hig sec, but uh, that dont sound like to much fun really. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4197
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 04:00:21 -
[3432] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Part 4: SP Trading will be abused.
Let me list the ways: 1. SP mules making passive income on countless accounts 2. People blowing away the max 2700 SP per hour limit. Now there is no upper limit so characters could gain as much SP as they want per hour, because sky's the limit for an IRL rich player 3. Large alliances will be able to afford SP packets for their rookie line members. Small alliance won't be able to. 4. Instant gratification for Alliance Tournament participation. Cash in SPs and enlist as a contender (maybe Elise considers to be a good thing). Can you see how this will be abused when combined with #3? 5. People un-biomassing old characters to cash in on SPs. 6. EVE quitters subscribing for 1 month to cash in on SPs. 7. RMT RMT RMT RMT RMT 8. Awoxers, corp thieves, spies recycled with only a 20% hit in SPs 9. It will perpetuate the myth that SPs make you win EVE to people who will fork out money to chase this myth. This will be one of the biggest exploits that rookies will face coming into EVE, and when they realize SPs don't make them good players they will quit. Weren't you in favor a hundred pages ago? LOL I changed my mind too.
1. Not going to happen, there isn't much money to be made. Since anybody can make an SP mule with near-zero effort, it won't be profitable. Think 50M ISK max a month or so. Also, there's a good chance people may sell unneeeded SP for lower than the SP mule cost (there's a lot of unneeded SP in EVE), effectively making SP mules unprofitable.
2. Sky isn't really the limit. After 50M SP, after 80M SP it becomes crazy expensive. Also, who cares? High-SP characters don't make a real difference in EVE per se.
3. True, though I wouldn't underestimate the cost even for them. Also, giving someone SRP incentivates them to stay, if you give them SP they might as well say 'hey, thanks!' and leave anytime... Not a great use for alliance ISK.
4. AT needs great pilots. If you suck, SP won't matter. If you're talented, having additional SP is a good thing IMO. Again, it ain't cheap.
5. This is awesome as it will lower SP price
6. This is awesome as it will lower SP price
7. ? not an expert on this
8. This is awesome as it will lower SP price
9. Same as PLEX abuse and misunderstanding game mechanics, we'll get great ALODs. On one hand, anyone that cares about newbros has always gone out of their way to explain EVE mechanics and that ISK and SP matter less than social skills and piloting skills. On the other hand, if noobs won't listen, f*k them. At least they'll give the game some cash.
Regarding 5, 6 and 8, if there really is a big SP dump the etreme consequence is that everyone will afford to be at 50M SP. Beyond that diminishing returns kick in super hard. Is more people being able to fly lots of stuff a bad thing for EVE? I don't think so.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
135
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 04:03:33 -
[3433] - Quote
Redneck Robot wrote:This seems like a great idea !
Are you 5-10 year vets really scared of me spending $100 and getting 6 months closer to you in skills?
Personally, no. For me the issue is that not all new guys can just drop $100 upfront on a game they've played for 2 weeks, but when some of them see you and others like you do it, they will feel left behind because they didn't and that's not a perception that's healthy for new player retention.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
182
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Posted - 2015.10.19 04:12:48 -
[3434] - Quote
Vodar Valimian wrote:This is such an epic bad idea that i cringe just thinking about it.
Here are my 2 cents.
- Cent 1 - Having a perfectly skilled character in any specific field used to be a testament to the patience and dedication of the player who built the character. These characters are rare because the investment in time and sacrifice is significant.
But no longer. Want a perfect (insert major ship type here)? 30 min and currency (poof). The fact that a character with the combination of these skills were so rare was a testament to the player who invested years in their creation. Remove the scarcity, remove the value. This idea so cheapens the game and the existing characters that it is hard to take it seriously.
- Cent 2 - How does this make any sense at all. The whole point of clones and transfer of memories is that you transfer your memories. How can you transfer someone else's experiences.
Bottom line, this is a sickening and obvious cash grab and I predict it will make eve just another (play to win) (fail) game.
Thanks,
Vodar
This post should be spammed after every Dave Starks post.
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Jonathan Deepspace
planetology construction MOSTLY AFK
0
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Posted - 2015.10.19 04:38:24 -
[3435] - Quote
I've been waiting for years to see something like that and I knew it will happen eventually. I know there is so many players crying once they see it but... it's like didn't let kids go to better schools because there was no good schools when we were kids. Bullshit! Despite some number of players who will probably quit the game for this reason, there is huge chance of making new large group of interest about EVE. Whoever says it's an end - it's just end of you having gigantic advantage over new players - not end of the game. Another thing I would like to see in eve is buying a remap [e.g. for a plex] |
Canadian Fire
Mighty Putty Inc
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 04:38:48 -
[3436] - Quote
All things considered it's not really such a horrible idea, but I still don't like it. If it is to be implemented, I would like to see a hard cap on it. IE you cannot inject SP on characters with over XX number of SP. Or some kind of balancing mechanic to make it so a day 1 char can get a big advantage, yes, but can't jump straight to all level 5 skills for $15,000 USD. At the very least I can catch up on some SP I missed when I wasn't able to sub I suppose. |
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CCP Terminus
C C P C C P Alliance
430
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 04:45:14 -
[3437] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote: Very good point.
CCP has squandered the revenues they made from Eve on other non-profitable ventures as stated in the post above. And now in order to compensate for those losses they're trying to dig in deeper and milk their only bread winner even further??
CCP is a company, not a product and it is the goal of any company to outlive any one product they create. And if a company relies on a single product for the entirety of their revenue, this is not possible. At some point the product will be replaced, even one as long lived as EVE Online. If that's the only thing making us money, the company collapses at that point and a lot of people lose their jobs.
While I don't see EVE going anywhere any time soon, it makes perfect sense to branch out in to other projects, to hedge bets against the future. The current projects in the works like Valkyrie have a lot of promise and hype, while at the same time having a much smaller development budget that EVE does right now.
Any losses incurred from past projects are already taken care of. This new feature is not being developed to compensate for them.
Speaking of which, there's been quite a few questions as to why the feature is being developed? What players are the target for this feature? I think it's fairly clearly described in the dev blog here:
"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether youGÇÖre an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you donGÇÖt use any more, a clever new player looking to invest your fortune into your character, a Corp leader trying to move everyone into a new doctrine or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly ArmageddonGÇÖs than Stilettos, this feature has you covered. This all fits nicely to our overall game design philosophy of giving you control over your experience through cooperation and competition with each other."
The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.
@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters
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Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming The Bastion
127
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Posted - 2015.10.19 04:48:02 -
[3438] - Quote
This whole affair doesn't really bother me, from the stand point of giving myself SP, I'm at the point on this pilot and my combat pilot where it would be woefully inefficient. (70 and 78 million sp respectively.) What I could do, is use the items to pull unwanted skills and give them to my cyno or trading alts to make them Industry Gods.
I would suggest the creation of a third item that when used simply unallocates the sp to the pilot in who uses it. It should cost more in aurum, the unused item should be tradeable on the market (no pay to win [respec]) but it should be more sp efficient in regards to diminishing returns. (hard cap of 20% penalty as opposed to 90% at high sp) so the item would grant 400,000 unallocated SP at the expense of 500,000 SP on the pilot. |
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CCP Terminus
C C P C C P Alliance
430
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 04:53:27 -
[3439] - Quote
Canadian Fire wrote:All things considered it's not really such a horrible idea, but I still don't like it. If it is to be implemented, I would like to see a hard cap on it. IE you cannot inject SP on characters with over XX number of SP. Or some kind of balancing mechanic to make it so a day 1 char can get a big advantage, yes, but can't jump straight to all level 5 skills for $15,000 USD. At the very least I can catch up on some SP I missed when I wasn't able to sub I suppose.
A hard cap seems to be a common request, and I think there may be some merit to that. We'll certainly look in to it. I'm not sure how to determine where that cap is though, if it's purely for prestige purposes.
On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.
@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters
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Mag's
the united
20578
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 05:12:05 -
[3440] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Canadian Fire wrote:All things considered it's not really such a horrible idea, but I still don't like it. If it is to be implemented, I would like to see a hard cap on it. IE you cannot inject SP on characters with over XX number of SP. Or some kind of balancing mechanic to make it so a day 1 char can get a big advantage, yes, but can't jump straight to all level 5 skills for $15,000 USD. At the very least I can catch up on some SP I missed when I wasn't able to sub I suppose. A hard cap seems to be a common request, and I think there may be some merit to that. We'll certainly look in to it. I'm not sure how to determine where that cap is though, if it's purely for prestige purposes. On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell. This reply just makes it look like a done deal.
Another common request is 'hell no'. But it's to early to tell, am I right?
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
182
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Posted - 2015.10.19 05:22:09 -
[3441] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:...
Actually I do not see how it affects me directly, if that is what you mean. But I tend to look beyond myself when considering changes to Eve. Kind of why I am on the CSM. Not just to feather my own nest.
As I said in the long quote . . . it will change the dynamic and the flavour of the game. If sold or marketed incorrectly it WILL look like a money grab where it is a subscription game that also needs microtransactions to stay current. I spoke about this on Podside, last night, about the financial divide it may create between the poor and the rich. I was told the solution was not to be 'poor'.
What about the divide between the casual and the hardcore?
Mainly I am trying to figure out WHO this is for and who it benefits.
any ideas?
m
Almost certainly not the new players unless the lay out a reasonable sum of RL cash. It makes me feel very uncomfortable about the whole thing.
Yep, it feels like a scam doesn't it.
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
134
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Posted - 2015.10.19 05:23:51 -
[3442] - Quote
Mag's wrote:This reply just makes it look like a done deal. How many features have even made it to the Dev blog stage without being implemented?
Someone with a truly silver tongue may be able to get CCP to tweak some settings, but this was a 'done deal' by the time it hit the CSM Summit.
What I'm looking forward to? The threadnaught spawned from the first Epic Arc that rewards completion with a skill packet.
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CCP Terminus
C C P C C P Alliance
431
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 05:30:39 -
[3443] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Mag's wrote:This reply just makes it look like a done deal. How many features have even made it to the Dev blog stage without being implemented? Someone with a truly silver tongue may be able to get CCP to tweak some settings, but this was a 'done deal' by the time it hit the CSM Summit. What I'm looking forward to? The threadnaught spawned from the first Epic Arc that rewards completion with a skill packet. Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.
@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters
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Mag's
the united
20578
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 05:34:49 -
[3444] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Aerasia wrote:Mag's wrote:This reply just makes it look like a done deal. How many features have even made it to the Dev blog stage without being implemented? Someone with a truly silver tongue may be able to get CCP to tweak some settings, but this was a 'done deal' by the time it hit the CSM Summit. What I'm looking forward to? The threadnaught spawned from the first Epic Arc that rewards completion with a skill packet. Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation. Ahh so a PR exercise and it's still a done deal?
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2518
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 05:48:46 -
[3445] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Canadian Fire wrote:All things considered it's not really such a horrible idea, but I still don't like it. If it is to be implemented, I would like to see a hard cap on it. IE you cannot inject SP on characters with over XX number of SP. Or some kind of balancing mechanic to make it so a day 1 char can get a big advantage, yes, but can't jump straight to all level 5 skills for $15,000 USD. At the very least I can catch up on some SP I missed when I wasn't able to sub I suppose. A hard cap seems to be a common request, and I think there may be some merit to that. We'll certainly look in to it. I'm not sure how to determine where that cap is though, if it's purely for prestige purposes. On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell. Screw that cap idea. Just open it up. The penalty for higher SP characters is already high enough with the reduced application rate.
My major complaint it that the idea has not yet been implemented.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
182
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 05:56:28 -
[3446] - Quote
Mag's wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:Aerasia wrote:Mag's wrote:This reply just makes it look like a done deal. How many features have even made it to the Dev blog stage without being implemented? Someone with a truly silver tongue may be able to get CCP to tweak some settings, but this was a 'done deal' by the time it hit the CSM Summit. What I'm looking forward to? The threadnaught spawned from the first Epic Arc that rewards completion with a skill packet. Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation. Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal? Nice.
Yes I also really like to know if this is a done deal? The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision. |
Dave stark
7607
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 05:57:33 -
[3447] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Aerasia wrote:Mag's wrote:This reply just makes it look like a done deal. How many features have even made it to the Dev blog stage without being implemented? Someone with a truly silver tongue may be able to get CCP to tweak some settings, but this was a 'done deal' by the time it hit the CSM Summit. What I'm looking forward to? The threadnaught spawned from the first Epic Arc that rewards completion with a skill packet. Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.
so, what's going on with prerequisite skills. you can't remove skills so even if you remove all the SP from them you're still going to be unable to remove SP from their prerequisites or you can "grandfather" yourself in to new ships. etc.
will you be adding a way to remove skills, or are we stuck with deadweight skills like mining IV forever? |
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CCP Terminus
C C P C C P Alliance
435
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 06:03:27 -
[3448] - Quote
Mag's wrote:CCP Terminus wrote: Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.
Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal? Nice.
Daniela Doran wrote:Yes I also really like to know if this is a done deal? The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision.
If it was a done deal we'd have put the dev blog out when it was going to be shipped. The whole point of the dev blog is to gather feedback and assess.
@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters
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Circumstantial Evidence
232
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 06:04:14 -
[3449] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:so, what's going on with prerequisite skills. you can't remove skills so even if you remove all the SP from them you're still going to be unable to remove SP from their prerequisites or you can "grandfather" yourself in to new ships. etc.
will you be adding a way to remove skills, or are we stuck with deadweight skills like mining IV forever? I think post #135 copied below, says skills + the points associated with them, will be removed:
CCP Terminus wrote:The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare. We also plan on having this be something you can only do in stations, so you wouldn't be stuck in in space in a ship you can no longer fly.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
182
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 06:04:18 -
[3450] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: Very good point.
CCP has squandered the revenues they made from Eve on other non-profitable ventures as stated in the post above. And now in order to compensate for those losses they're trying to dig in deeper and milk their only bread winner even further??
CCP is a company, not a product and it is the goal of any company to outlive any one product they create. If a company relies on a single product for the entirety of their revenue, this is not possible. At some point the product will be replaced, even one as long lived as EVE Online. If that's the only thing making us money, the company collapses at that point and a lot of people lose their jobs. While I don't see EVE going anywhere any time soon, it makes perfect sense to branch out in to other projects, to hedge bets against the future. The current projects in the works like Valkyrie have a lot of promise and hype, while at the same time having a much smaller development budget that EVE does right now. Any losses incurred from past projects are already taken care of. This new feature is not being developed to compensate for them. Speaking of which, there's been quite a few questions as to why the feature is being developed? What players are the target for this feature? I think it's fairly clearly described in the dev blog here: "By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether youGÇÖre an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you donGÇÖt use any more, a clever new player looking to invest your fortune into your character, a Corp leader trying to move everyone into a new doctrine or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly ArmageddonGÇÖs than Stilettos, this feature has you covered. This all fits nicely to our overall game design philosophy of giving you control over your experience through cooperation and competition with each other." The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.
Okay, then why try to fix something that isn't broken? Why not just leave the Char Bazaar the way it is? In other words why is CCP trying to make more money this way? And why would you do it in a way that contradicts one of Eve's main core principals that the game was based upon for over a decade?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3553
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 06:06:15 -
[3451] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: Very good point.
CCP has squandered the revenues they made from Eve on other non-profitable ventures as stated in the post above. And now in order to compensate for those losses they're trying to dig in deeper and milk their only bread winner even further??
CCP is a company, not a product and it is the goal of any company to outlive any one product they create. If a company relies on a single product for the entirety of their revenue, this is not possible.
Yeah companies that sell electricity are never around long are they.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3553
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 06:07:18 -
[3452] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: Very good point.
CCP has squandered the revenues they made from Eve on other non-profitable ventures as stated in the post above. And now in order to compensate for those losses they're trying to dig in deeper and milk their only bread winner even further??
CCP is a company, not a product and it is the goal of any company to outlive any one product they create. If a company relies on a single product for the entirety of their revenue, this is not possible. At some point the product will be replaced, even one as long lived as EVE Online. If that's the only thing making us money, the company collapses at that point and a lot of people lose their jobs.
Translation: Money grab to fund other projects in the hopes of saving the company.
Gotcha.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3553
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 06:10:01 -
[3453] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Aerasia wrote:Mag's wrote:This reply just makes it look like a done deal. How many features have even made it to the Dev blog stage without being implemented? Someone with a truly silver tongue may be able to get CCP to tweak some settings, but this was a 'done deal' by the time it hit the CSM Summit. What I'm looking forward to? The threadnaught spawned from the first Epic Arc that rewards completion with a skill packet. Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.
You could...oh I don't...post more data. And spare me the blah blah blah of customer confidentiality, you can aggregate and protect customer confidential information that way, it is done all the time in other industries.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
182
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 06:11:25 -
[3454] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Mag's wrote:CCP Terminus wrote: Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.
Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal? Nice. Daniela Doran wrote:Yes I also really like to know if this is a done deal? The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision. If it was a done deal we'd have put the dev blog out when it was going to be shipped. The whole point of the dev blog is to gather feedback and assess.
In that case I'd like your opinion on this proposal if CCP is insistent on SP trading.
1st--Veterans can extract 5 skills per year using the Transneural Package. The skills that are extracted, extracts the entire skill regardless of the level. The extracted skills extracts up to 66% of the actual SP extracted which the player can relocate anywhere else on him/herself only (can't be sold to someone else cause it breaks eve realistic principles).
2nd--CCP introduce a new skill book called Transneural with Int/Mem attributes and a 4x training time multiplier. This would be a skill that a player needs to train to level 5 if they want to sell their own SP to other pilots. Once this skill is trained to level 5 it starts producing unallocated SP that can be uses however the player wishes with a -34% SP accumulation drawback.
3rd--Set cap injection limit to 20m SP. 20M SP is plenty of SP for new pilots to gain access to core skills that they can use to branch off into any other occupation of their choosing.
With these features incorporated it limits the abuse of SP farming and most importantly it doesn't break Eve game principles. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
418
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 06:23:25 -
[3455] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. but you are. Player A is traing his manufacturing skills to produce modules (it will take some time) Player B bought skills to maufacture said modules (he will have them instantly) Who have advantage here? From what you wrote Terminus it's already decided, why bother with feedback? It's rather how we introduce it, not if.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Maetel Lithium
did he say call it bestfriends club delivered Dragon Knights Inc
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 06:36:45 -
[3456] - Quote
I still don't like the idea of buying skills. I would prefer the ability to redistribute the points I have then add new skills on top of existing skills. It would be my preference, rather then just writing SP into the characters' brain. As with attribute mapping, it makes more sense in continuity.
I am a little worried about SP farming. I could see someone having a bunch of alts With the right skills and implants to maximize training in one area, and then transfer those skills to other accounts or to the market. And there's NO RISKS because they never have to undock!
Eve is, as far as I understand, About risk/reward ratios. The more you hqve to gain, the more you must invest, and stand to lose. This is different from multi-boxing because you still havento PLAY those accounts. They have to enter space at some point.
I could set up 10 jita alts, never undock and just sell skill points. Training is passive so as long as I am willing to front the money, or the ISK to buy the tools to make skill packs, I don't need to risk a thing.
It's not even market trading or anything where you have to sink ISK into something and there's a chance it won't sell, ornyou will get undercut by another person. Generic skill packets will always bin demand and will always be profitable, like PLEX, because there will be tied to IRL money. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9326
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 06:41:02 -
[3457] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. but you are. Player A is traing his manufacturing skills to produce modules (it will take some time) Player B bought skills to maufacture said modules (he will have them instantly) Who have advantage here? From what you wrote Terminus it's already decided, why bother with feedback? It's rather how we introduce it, not if.
Player A: Return on investment at the completion of skills. Player B: Return on investment after selling 25 billion worth of modules to cover the costs of SP packs.
Which is the more likely scenario? People, at least think things through before hammering keys.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 06:43:37 -
[3458] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation. Don't get me wrong, sarcasm aside I don't have any real issues with this idea. I'm firmly in the "This is basically the Bazaar, only less difficult to use" camp.
Which doesn't mean there isn't a cabal of incredibly vocal players ready to shout down any affront to tradition.
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Player A is traing his manufacturing skills to produce modules (it will take some time) Player B bought skills to maufacture said modules (he will have them instantly) You're forgetting that A isn't competing with B. Both players are competing with: Player C, who's been playing for years and has the set of level V skills that makes new players have to wait so long to be competitive in the market to begin with.
In a technical sense, buying SP from the market gives B an advantage over A. But neither of them are going to be able to sell their wares until they've been brought even with C. This is exactly the barrier to entry that drives the Character Bazaar in the first place.
Maetel Lithium wrote:I could set up 10 jita alts, never undock and just sell skill points. There are 25,000 characters traded each year on the Bazaar. Where exactly did you think they trained? |
Dave Stark
7607
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 06:45:19 -
[3459] - Quote
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:Dave Stark wrote:so, what's going on with prerequisite skills. you can't remove skills so even if you remove all the SP from them you're still going to be unable to remove SP from their prerequisites or you can "grandfather" yourself in to new ships. etc.
will you be adding a way to remove skills, or are we stuck with deadweight skills like mining IV forever? I think post #135 copied below, says skills + the points associated with them, will be removed: CCP Terminus wrote:The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare. We also plan on having this be something you can only do in stations, so you wouldn't be stuck in in space in a ship you can no longer fly.
it says "you would have to remove" except... we can't remove skills once they've been injected. which is why i'm asking if that's a feature they're adding or if we're stuck with **** we don't want even in the new system. |
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming The Bastion
127
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 06:46:11 -
[3460] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: Very good point.
CCP has squandered the revenues they made from Eve on other non-profitable ventures as stated in the post above. And now in order to compensate for those losses they're trying to dig in deeper and milk their only bread winner even further??
CCP is a company, not a product and it is the goal of any company to outlive any one product they create. If a company relies on a single product for the entirety of their revenue, this is not possible. Yeah companies that sell electricity are never around long are they.
Comparing a game software company to a public utility that is consumed by everyone? Apples vs Oranges
fail troll -5/10 |
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Dave Stark
7607
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 06:49:21 -
[3461] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. but you are. Player A is traing his manufacturing skills to produce modules (it will take some time) Player B bought skills to maufacture said modules (he will have them instantly) Who have advantage here? From what you wrote Terminus it's already decided, why bother with feedback? It's rather how we introduce it, not if.
player C has the advantage, the one that brought a character with max industry skills and the skills for a catalyst pilot from the bazaar who competes easily with player B and then blows all his freighters up so he can't produce anything and monopolises the market.
funfact; player C already exists. and player A can do so if he wishes.
besides, i'm not huge in to industry so some one might correct me but most of the industry skills just give you faster manufacture/copy times and a bigger range on remote starting of jobs... neither of those are going to push player A out of the market as they'll still be working to the same margins. |
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
707
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:00:58 -
[3462] - Quote
player B hasn't had the joy of all the time spent experiencing the greatness EvE has to offer.
You guys keep trying to punish us for not having joined the party as soon as you did, but that in of itself is a punishment.
Missing out on all the great stories we hear about is already bad enough.
And we're not getting these skill points for free. In one fashion or another we have to PAY for them.
Stop being so greedy and share the game with the rest of us. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
419
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:02:00 -
[3463] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote: Player A: Return on investment at the completion of skills. Player B: Return on investment after selling 25 billion worth of modules to cover the costs of SP packs.
Which is the more likely scenario? People, at least think things through before hammering keys.
So, same goes for comat skills? Player A will be training Player B buy instantly, make sense...
Dave Stark wrote:player C has the advantage, the one that brought a character with max industry skills and the skills for a catalyst pilot from the bazaar who competes easily with player B and then blows all his freighters up so he can't produce anything and monopolises the market. and now comes the "more granular" part. Buying SP may be cheaper than buying character as whole.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Mane Frehm
The Executioners Shadow Cartel
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:05:59 -
[3464] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Mag's wrote:CCP Terminus wrote: Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.
Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal? Nice. Daniela Doran wrote:Yes I also really like to know if this is a done deal? The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision. If it was a done deal we'd have put the dev blog out when it was going to be shipped. The whole point of the dev blog is to gather feedback and assess.
With all due respect now that you've let this particular cat out of the bag, it will be enormously difficult to stuff it back in (kitties with claws and all that). If you persist in making characters fungible commodities, you will annoy those (and there are many) who think this is a bad idea. If you decide to withdraw the idea, you will annoy those who were anticipating stuffing their characters full of SPs via this mechanism.
I'll repeat what I've said in a number of posts on forums - presenting solutions without clearly identifying the problems that you hope to address takes you to a bad place. You'd be far better off identifying your critical issues and then looking for options to address them. Perhaps you've done this internally.....but its hard to tell from here.
Whether you are willing to admit it or not, this is a fundamental change to the game. Today characters are unique, the result of difficult choices amongst a large number of options, often postponing immediate gratification for long term gain. Tomorrow, characters will be just a collection of SP parts, malleable and ever changing, all of them joining the flavour of the month club. If you recall, we had a bit of a problem with Ishtars in the game recently....imagine if everyone was flying them. |
Dave Stark
7608
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:06:45 -
[3465] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Mr Epeen wrote: Player A: Return on investment at the completion of skills. Player B: Return on investment after selling 25 billion worth of modules to cover the costs of SP packs.
Which is the more likely scenario? People, at least think things through before hammering keys.
So, same goes for comat skills? Player A will be training Player B buy instantly, make sense... Dave Stark wrote:player C has the advantage, the one that brought a character with max industry skills and the skills for a catalyst pilot from the bazaar who competes easily with player B and then blows all his freighters up so he can't produce anything and monopolises the market. and now comes the "more granular" part. Buying SP may be cheaper than buying character as whole.
also player C exists as veterans.
let's face it - not allowing people to buy and sell SP is basically saying "you must wait an arbitrary amount of time, that you must pay for anyway to compete".
you're paying for SP with your subscription you give ccp your $15 or however much a sub is these days and ccp give you just shy of 2m sp spread over 30 days. if people want to pay for it all at once why should we be against that?
all we're really doing by not allowing the sale of SP is saying "new players must wait an arbitrary amount of time to do what we can". what purpose does that serve? |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9328
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:09:16 -
[3466] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Mr Epeen wrote: Player A: Return on investment at the completion of skills. Player B: Return on investment after selling 25 billion worth of modules to cover the costs of SP packs.
Which is the more likely scenario? People, at least think things through before hammering keys.
So, same goes for comat skills? Player A will be training Player B buy instantly, make sense... No point in answering. The way you are now and likely to keep moving the goalposts pretty much means it's an exercise in frustration and not a conversation.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Dave Stark
7608
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:10:52 -
[3467] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Mr Epeen wrote: Player A: Return on investment at the completion of skills. Player B: Return on investment after selling 25 billion worth of modules to cover the costs of SP packs.
Which is the more likely scenario? People, at least think things through before hammering keys.
So, same goes for comat skills? Player A will be training Player B buy instantly, make sense... No point in answering. The way you are now and likely to keep moving the goalposts pretty much means it's an exercise in frustration and not a conversation. Mr Epeen
we all know the answer is player A, since he made friends with the local pirates while player B was searching for his wallet. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
212
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:14:26 -
[3468] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: Very good point.
CCP has squandered the revenues they made from Eve on other non-profitable ventures as stated in the post above. And now in order to compensate for those losses they're trying to dig in deeper and milk their only bread winner even further??
CCP is a company, not a product and it is the goal of any company to outlive any one product they create. If a company relies on a single product for the entirety of their revenue, this is not possible. At some point the product will be replaced, even one as long lived as EVE Online. If that's the only thing making us money, the company collapses at that point and a lot of people lose their jobs. While I don't see EVE going anywhere any time soon, it makes perfect sense to branch out in to other projects, to hedge bets against the future. The current projects in the works like Valkyrie have a lot of promise and hype, while at the same time having a much smaller development budget that EVE does right now. Any losses incurred from past projects are already taken care of. This new feature is not being developed to compensate for them. Speaking of which, there's been quite a few questions as to why the feature is being developed? What players are the target for this feature? I think it's fairly clearly described in the dev blog here: "By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether youGÇÖre an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you donGÇÖt use any more, a clever new player looking to invest your fortune into your character, a Corp leader trying to move everyone into a new doctrine or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly ArmageddonGÇÖs than Stilettos, this feature has you covered. This all fits nicely to our overall game design philosophy of giving you control over your experience through cooperation and competition with each other." The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.
Don't lie.
It's not made "to give players more control" because in this same post you state "CCP needs monies" so it IS a cash grab plain and simple, it never was anything else and no one could ever mistake it for anything else.
CPP did fine for a long time, with a smaller player base, till the illusions of grandeur set in and they started wasting money on nonsense and silly pet projects. Most of that got cut out in 2011 but apparently this is STILL happening. If you have solvency issues then you fix that by taking long term action: you cut costs by removing the extra dead weight you put on and refocus on your core business, you don't do that by squandering your single main product for short term income. That's dumb.
This system COMPLETELY FUCKS OVER THE CORE IDEA OF THE GAME... choices have consequences especially so for characters. Only someone new to the game who has no idea of its history, background and core values (like some new DEVS) would just trample on that.
CCP, fix your monies problems by getting rid of stuff that isn't EVE. Stop trying to do yet again what you tried to do in 2011: make EVE and its players pay for the mistakes and pet projects you allowed to fck up. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3032
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:18:08 -
[3469] - Quote
Just caught up with the latest posts on this topic.
It would seem that CCP, having noted the overwhelmingly negative feedback, have decided to go ahead with it anyway.
Makes one wonder what was the point of requesting feedback in the first place.
Oh well, onwards, ever onwards.
This is not a signature.
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
420
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:20:42 -
[3470] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:all we're really doing by not allowing the sale of SP is saying "new players must wait an arbitrary amount of time to do what we can". what purpose does that serve? Why not just remove all skills then? There won't be any time to wait to catch up with vets. Making it pay to catch up with won't solve anything, only the one who afford it will catch up. There always be someone who's left behind in new system.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
|
ArmyOfMe
Hull Breach. Outnumbered.
489
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:21:02 -
[3471] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Canadian Fire wrote:All things considered it's not really such a horrible idea, but I still don't like it. If it is to be implemented, I would like to see a hard cap on it. IE you cannot inject SP on characters with over XX number of SP. Or some kind of balancing mechanic to make it so a day 1 char can get a big advantage, yes, but can't jump straight to all level 5 skills for $15,000 USD. At the very least I can catch up on some SP I missed when I wasn't able to sub I suppose. A hard cap seems to be a common request, and I think there may be some merit to that. We'll certainly look in to it. I'm not sure how to determine where that cap is though, if it's purely for prestige purposes. On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.
So what you'r really saying is that you do expect some players to put trillions of isk into this just to get passed 200 or even the 300m sp mark then. (yeah, no need for a hardcap at all here )
Implement a hardcap at around 50m sp, and i wont complain all that much, tho i will still complain. As was posted earlier, most char sales atm are for chars below that ammount of sp anyhow.
QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
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Dave Stark
7608
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:23:24 -
[3472] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Just caught up with the latest posts on this topic.
It would seem that CCP, having noted the overwhelmingly negative feedback, have decided to go ahead with it anyway.
Makes one wonder what was the point of requesting feedback in the first place.
Oh well, onwards, ever onwards.
one negative thread on eve-o isn't "overwhelmingly negative" head anywhere outside of this thread and the response isn't nearly as negative.
as mike pointed out, you have to be subscribed to post here. considering the positivity of other people - you could quite easily argue this feature could bring many people back to the game. quite frankly with some of the responses in here and how silly they are even if some people left and the net number of players was constant i'd call it a good trade. |
Dave Stark
7608
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:26:05 -
[3473] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:all we're really doing by not allowing the sale of SP is saying "new players must wait an arbitrary amount of time to do what we can". what purpose does that serve? Why not just remove all skills then? There won't be any time to wait to catch up with vets. Making it pay to catch up with won't solve anything, only the one who afford it will catch up. There always be someone who's left behind in new system.
serious reply; sure.
this isn't a level based experience grind MMO where grinding new levels lets you play in the new dungeon. this is eve, it's a sandbox you can go anywhere you want from day 1. there's something you can do in every area of space from day 1. having things hidden behind arbitrary waits may have been good when the game was new and they had to have some form of pacing... but there's no need for pacing 12 years down the line.
more people in space shooting things instead of sat in stations waiting is a good thing.
however - for me to fully support such an idea we'd need absolutely perfect ship balance - which we do not have. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6882
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:27:55 -
[3474] - Quote
One issue I have with this is how it changes what is needed to be a character seller. Right now you have to create a character, chuck in implants, skill it up into something that people like (using knowledge of the market to do so) and then sell it, along with the implants, then start again. It's a long and complex process.
Following this, you just need to create an alt, stick in 2 implants. It doesn't even matter for what attributes, as long as they match a skill. Then you just train that single skill for eternity pulling out SP into packets when there's enough in it, never needing to replace the implants or understand the complexities of the character market. People can then use those for any skill they want. It's a massive dumbing down of the system, and it removes all of the extra costs like the implants and skillbooks needed for each alt sold.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Josef Djugashvilis
3033
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:29:15 -
[3475] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Just caught up with the latest posts on this topic.
It would seem that CCP, having noted the overwhelmingly negative feedback, have decided to go ahead with it anyway.
Makes one wonder what was the point of requesting feedback in the first place.
Oh well, onwards, ever onwards. one negative thread on eve-o isn't "overwhelmingly negative" head anywhere outside of this thread and the response isn't nearly as negative. as mike pointed out, you have to be subscribed to post here. considering the positivity of other people - you could quite easily argue this feature could bring many people back to the game. quite frankly with some of the responses in here and how silly they are even if some people left and the net number of players was constant i'd call it a good trade.
So, CCP want to say to new players, pay your sub then pay a lot extra to gain some skill points, which even then will mean they can never catch up on vets.
Sounds like a plan to me.
Of course I do understand why you seem to be implying that CCP should regard the views of their paying customers as a weird subset of folk.
I mean this in the nicest possible way Mr Dave, but if you stop posting, support for this proposal is, well...what support?
This is not a signature.
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Dave Stark
7608
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:32:10 -
[3476] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:One issue I have with this is how it changes what is needed to be a character seller. Right now you have to create a character, chuck in implants, skill it up into something that people like (using knowledge of the market to do so) and then sell it, along with the implants, then start again. It's a long and complex process.
Following this, you just need to create an alt, stick in 2 implants. It doesn't even matter for what attributes, as long as they match a skill. Then you just train that single skill for eternity pulling out SP into packets when there's enough in it, never needing to replace the implants or understand the complexities of the character market. People can then use those for any skill they want. It's a massive dumbing down of the system, and it removes all of the extra costs like the implants and skillbooks needed for each alt sold.
the character bazaar will net people much larger profits. the diminishing returns system offers pretty much guaranteed profit for the people you mentioned.
once you get past 10m SP you start hitting diminishing returns. also we don't know how much extractors will cost. character transfers are a flat fee no matter how many SP. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
420
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:35:25 -
[3477] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:having things hidden behind arbitrary waits may have been good when the game was new and they had to have some form of pacing... but there's no need for pacing 12 years down the line. We need whole system rebalance then, rather putting make up on the corpse. Avatar based system was took from RPG game with attributes and skills, if not working properly it's a point when need close look up and change. All I hear: "you may compete but you need to pay". Edit: Dave, it's become "Dave personal thread about SP", we all know your opinion about it by now. Do you ever sleep? Take a day off, or week maybe. Yo don't have to quote every answer in this thread.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
4047
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:35:37 -
[3478] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Canadian Fire wrote:All things considered it's not really such a horrible idea, but I still don't like it. If it is to be implemented, I would like to see a hard cap on it. IE you cannot inject SP on characters with over XX number of SP. Or some kind of balancing mechanic to make it so a day 1 char can get a big advantage, yes, but can't jump straight to all level 5 skills for $15,000 USD. At the very least I can catch up on some SP I missed when I wasn't able to sub I suppose. A hard cap seems to be a common request, and I think there may be some merit to that. We'll certainly look in to it. I'm not sure how to determine where that cap is though, if it's purely for prestige purposes. On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.
Don't make things complicated... even MORE complicated. *facepalm*
If you'd rather devaluate subscriptions than plug the highsec slow bleeding that's been taking place for years, then put a cap on how much value will lose a "plain" subscription compared to the deep pockets buying themselves into "Premium" skillpointing.
I suggested 6 months of training, or roughly the first 10 million SP. That should be enough for a concerned noob.
By the way: someone at Sugar's blog pointed that faster skilling will also shorten the tenure of highseccers. Are you tyring to get rid of us even faster, allowing us to get that Raven in a month rather than 6...?
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
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Dave Stark
7608
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:35:57 -
[3479] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:what support?
head outside eve-o and you'll see the myriad of support for this idea - and not from no-name nobodies like me. from people who have been playing for years and have the profile to support that. |
Dave Stark
7608
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:37:00 -
[3480] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:having things hidden behind arbitrary waits may have been good when the game was new and they had to have some form of pacing... but there's no need for pacing 12 years down the line. We need whole system rebalance then, rather putting make up on the corpse. Avatar based system was took from RPG game with attributes and skills, if not working properly it's a point when need close look up and change. All I hear: "you may compete but you need to pay".
pretty sure that's where it's heading. ccp have already expressed that they want to look at attributes, learning implants, and such like. |
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9328
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:43:29 -
[3481] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:One issue I have with this is how it changes what is needed to be a character seller. Right now you have to create a character, chuck in implants, skill it up into something that people like (using knowledge of the market to do so) and then sell it, along with the implants, then start again. It's a long and complex process.
Following this, you just need to create an alt, stick in 2 implants. It doesn't even matter for what attributes, as long as they match a skill. Then you just train that single skill for eternity pulling out SP into packets when there's enough in it, never needing to replace the implants or understand the complexities of the character market. People can then use those for any skill they want. It's a massive dumbing down of the system, and it removes all of the extra costs like the implants and skillbooks needed for each alt sold. With the price of PLEX right now (and it's likely continuing rise ) the margins are pretty tight on selling characters. The prices of characters are not really keeping pace with the cost of the PLEX to make them. So for traders it will be unlikely that they start adding SP packs since it will kill their profit margins even more.
For a personal character at a low SP level adding packs is a reasonable alternative to using the bazaar. But for anything over, say, 10M SP it will be cheaper to buy a premade character.
So while people, maybe a lot of people, will try farming SP for sale, I think it will hit a ceiling pretty quickly. When people have to start lowering the price of SP packs to move them, many will stop farming as it won't be profitable.
Eventually there will be some sort of equilibrium. It may be sooner or later. I don't have enough information to even speculate yet. That's not stopping me from preparing an acct or two for my own farming operation, however.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Big Lynx
4047
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:47:10 -
[3482] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:[ Mr Epeen
Isn't that brutally exhausting to type that Mr Epeen below every single stupid post?!? |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
215
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:49:02 -
[3483] - Quote
Dave is Zinfandel. |
Dave Stark
7608
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:49:41 -
[3484] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave is Zinfandel.
i'm a bottle of wine?
i know it's early but i'm really confused by this one... |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9328
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:51:15 -
[3485] - Quote
Big Lynx wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:[ Mr Epeen Isn't that brutally exhausting to type that Mr Epeen below every single stupid post?!? It's worth every keystroke if it annoys people enough to rage-post about it.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Jared Khanar
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:57:22 -
[3486] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote: The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.
So we should see sp as a collectable, tradeable ressource now. I understand. But why connecting this to a (multiple) rl cash flow to ccp? If it-¦s only about enabling possibilities this is not needed - all sp trading and extracting could be done via isk only!
let-¦s look at possible tradeshemes:
player extracts sp via aurum (irrelevant if bought via rl money or plex) <-> player buys sp via ingame aquired isk | ccp earns money / can change "debt" into "wealth" <-> ccp earns no money
player extracts sp via aurum (...) <-> player buys sp via plex from ingame market | ccp earns money / can change "debt" into wealth" <-> ccp can change "debt" into "wealth"
player extracts sp via aurum (...) <-> player buys sp via rl currency | ccp earns money / can change "debt" into "wealth" <-> ccp earns money
from three possible shemes i can think of right now, there are two ccp earns money on BOTH sides of the trade !? wtf !? am i wrong? how should we feel about that? isn-¦t this a clear and obvious indicator of what is intended to be achived with this? |
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:57:45 -
[3487] - Quote
CCP:
Through the general consencous on the forums, I believe you could do the following options and would get the backing of the community.
A.) Skill Extractors:- Extracts the unwanted SP in a particular skill, i.e, Mining level V. Recieving the SP as Unallocated.
B.) All Skill Extractors and SP used can only be used on the same character you initiated it on.
C.) You do not, can not, buy Skill Extractors on the market and can only purchase through Aurum. (Profit for CCP) *Obviously open to debate, just thinking of CCP gains as a company.
D.) You sell Skill Extractors in packets, i.e, 5 Skill Extractors for 1000 Aurum *Example*
E.) You Cap the re-distribution amount per month, i.e. 15,000 Sp. *Stop over abusing the system.
Why do this?:
1.) Re-distributing unwanted skill SP into wanted skills.
2.) Re-distribute SP to enhance your characters profile and attractiveness on the Character Bazaar.
3.) CCP Profit.
Open to scrutiny,
Syn |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:58:12 -
[3488] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:I suggested 6 months of training, or roughly the first 10 million SP. That should be enough for a concerned noob. Original purpose is good enough without any changes. |
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming The Bastion
127
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:58:39 -
[3489] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave is Zinfandel. i'm a bottle of wine? i know it's early but i'm really confused by this one...
I think the troll is trying to imply a connection to the former dev CCP Zinfindel.
I saw his corp name and chose to ignore him a few dozen pages ago. |
Dave Stark
7608
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:01:50 -
[3490] - Quote
Urziel99 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave is Zinfandel. i'm a bottle of wine? i know it's early but i'm really confused by this one... I think the troll is trying to imply a connection to the former dev CCP Zinfindel. I saw his corp name and chose to ignore him a few dozen pages ago.
oh, never heard of him. |
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:02:47 -
[3491] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:CCP: C.) You do not, can not, buy Skill Extractors on the market and can only purchase through Aurum. (Profit for CCP) *Obviously open to debate, just thinking of CCP gains as a company.
You are quite wrong. Citate from dev blog
Quote:Both Transneural Skill Extractors and Transneural Skill Packets can be freely traded on the market for ISK |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
215
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:05:06 -
[3492] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Urziel99 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave is Zinfandel. i'm a bottle of wine? i know it's early but i'm really confused by this one... I think the troll is trying to imply a connection to the former dev CCP Zinfindel. I saw his corp name and chose to ignore him a few dozen pages ago. oh, never heard of him.
Nice try Zinfandel. |
Insane Randomness
Stellar Pilgrimage
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:05:21 -
[3493] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Canadian Fire wrote:All things considered it's not really such a horrible idea, but I still don't like it. If it is to be implemented, I would like to see a hard cap on it. IE you cannot inject SP on characters with over XX number of SP. Or some kind of balancing mechanic to make it so a day 1 char can get a big advantage, yes, but can't jump straight to all level 5 skills for $15,000 USD. At the very least I can catch up on some SP I missed when I wasn't able to sub I suppose. A hard cap seems to be a common request, and I think there may be some merit to that. We'll certainly look in to it. I'm not sure how to determine where that cap is though, if it's purely for prestige purposes. On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.
So I reserved judgement until I saw exactly what everyone else has to say, including you Terminus, who seems to be fighting a one man war against all these doom-sayers. Very admirable last stand good sir!
That said, I sympathize with both sides. On one side, the naysayers have something, a very big something that reminds us of Fearless and Incarna (you guys do still remember that, right?) and the riots in Jita (I know you remember that.). And for this, I'd like to say something: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXA559KNopI
That is a youtube video for microtransactions, which is what this is, pure and simple. We pay real money for Aurum, to convert it into an item, to allow us to sell SP, which allows us to progress through the game at an accelerated rate. Meaning money = power, because in EVE, time is power. Four things against this:
1. YOU GUYS ARE REFERENCED IN THE VIDEO AT THE VERY START! It's not even thirty seconds in, and the narrator echoes every thought that is going through around 90% of every players head in this forum. Historically, you guys don't do microtransactions. They lead to bad things and EVE is NOT very suitable to them.
2. I don't think you guys think of us as the enemy. You spend way to much time talking and communicating about the game we love to think of us as bad people. And you know what? That is AWESOME. I love EVE, and I have litteraly sunk THOUSANDS of dollars into the game, in both plex and game time. The PLEX system works somewhat well, despite it's microtransaction nature because it makes ISK, which is inevitably destroyed, in vast quantities, every day. That is MTA's done right, and it's a good idea. But it's insanely easy to protect skillpoints, because skillpoints are far more valuable than any amount of ISK. It represents how far a character has come, and how dedicated to the game a player is. And making this move devalues both.
3. Aurum can't be earned in game. This means I have to pay real money to access this. That is just, wrong. In so many ways.
4. You are selling power. Wrong. BAD CCP!
At the end of the day though, this is selling power. And thats the purest definition of pay to win. Time is power in EVE. You want to make it possible for new players to catch up to old players, but you don't want to make it easy. This is just, in my mind, asking for trouble, even with a hard cap or diminishing returns. The video references selling leveling speed, but EVE is different. It's not free to play, which makes time, which you are helping people skip over, way, way, way more valuable. Thats why losing SP is THE number one thing every player avoids doing. Thats why I don't even undock from a station until I have an up to date clone. It's why I stopped flying a T3, even though the skills are limited to the ability and expertise of flying a T3, but there was still a remote possibility that I'd have to go back and waste time retraining a skill I had already trained.
So whats good about this?
1. More players. The ability to jump into more powerful ships just by buying a subscription will bring in more short term revenue, which you guys gotta admit makes it look like you're strapped for cash. I think though that in the long run, you'll loose more players than you gain. There are plenty of other great games out there that I love playing, although EVE is probably the most unique.
2. It helps modernize the bazaar. This one is a bit grey though. There are other ways to do this.
3. It lets me still personalize my character. Name and look. I love this character. I love the name, and I love the look, and I'm not planning on getting rid of him anytime soon. Even so, this is still a grey area. There are ways to offer name and trait changes without risking compromising your game.
4. Min/maxing. It WOULD be awesome to be able to take all my industrial skills I have and turn them into SP to finally start training carriers. But this can be achieved with a respec token.
And thats about it. The risk for this is huge, Terminus. It could, if done wrong, kill this game. And none of us want that. I don't want that, you don't want that, and everyone else doesn't want that (except maybe goonwaffe ;D). To my mind, this entire thing could be far easier if you just offered name changes and respec tokens. This needlessly overcomplicated and DANGEROUS. And I don't think to many people would throw a hissy fit about name and skill respec tokens. Probably the biggest issue is just being able to move skills from one character to another. The time it would take to train characters into ludicrously high SP numbers is reduced with this, and I wouldn't be surprised if players created farms to accellerate skill training beyond what anyone could imagine.
tl;dr A big NO from me. Seriously CCP. Rethink this. |
Jared Khanar
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:05:40 -
[3494] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:CCP: C.) You do not, can not, buy Skill Extractors on the market and can only purchase through Aurum. (Profit for CCP) *Obviously open to debate, just thinking of CCP gains as a company.
You are quite wrong. Citate from dev blogQuote:Both Transneural Skill Extractors and Transneural Skill Packets can be freely traded on the market for ISK
Where are this extractors coming from before you trade them on the market? How do you build SP packets if not with these extractors? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:09:38 -
[3495] - Quote
"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether youGÇÖre an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you donGÇÖt use any more, a clever new player looking to invest your fortune into your character, a Corp leader trying to move everyone into a new doctrine or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly ArmageddonGÇÖs than Stilettos, this feature has you covered"
If its a player customization approach then why not actually give us just that not a sugar coated way to spend cash.
1. Pay for a name change 2. pay for a complete skill remap 3.All new pilots can buy skillpoint packages direct from ccp same as plex 500,000 sp's $6.99 for a limited time say 1 /2 /3 months then it ends - this will benefit the new who want to jump straight into shinies who gives a rats ass if it goes pop.
Character bazaar bought ingame for the fear of RMT, dont quite know what use it would be but its still available then.
That about covers customization CCP win on 1 / 2 and definately 3 Client base win on 1 and 2
Doesnt seem to matter anymore about histories, core principals as long as everyone gets there fix.
|
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming The Bastion
127
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:09:58 -
[3496] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Urziel99 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave is Zinfandel. i'm a bottle of wine? i know it's early but i'm really confused by this one... I think the troll is trying to imply a connection to the former dev CCP Zinfindel. I saw his corp name and chose to ignore him a few dozen pages ago. oh, never heard of him. Nice try Zinfandel.
Maybe you should pretend like people who actually know who CCP Zinfindel was and who he plays as aren't in the room. Better yet don't pretend. |
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming The Bastion
127
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:15:16 -
[3497] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether youGÇÖre an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you donGÇÖt use any more, a clever new player looking to invest your fortune into your character, a Corp leader trying to move everyone into a new doctrine or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly ArmageddonGÇÖs than Stilettos, this feature has you covered"
If its a player customization approach then why not actually give us just that not a sugar coated way to spend cash.
1. Pay for a name change 2. pay for a complete skill remap 3.All new pilots can buy skillpoint packages direct from ccp same as plex 500,000 sp's $6.99 for a limited time say 1 /2 /3 months then it ends - this will benefit the new who want to jump straight into shinies who gives a rats ass if it goes pop.
Character bazaar bought ingame for the fear of RMT, dont quite know what use it would be but its still available then.
That about covers customization CCP win on 1 / 2 and definately 3 Client base win on 1 and 2
Doesnt seem to matter anymore about histories, core principals as long as everyone gets there fix.
Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:16:42 -
[3498] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:General Lootit wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:CCP: C.) You do not, can not, buy Skill Extractors on the market and can only purchase through Aurum. (Profit for CCP) *Obviously open to debate, just thinking of CCP gains as a company.
You are quite wrong. Citate from dev blogQuote:Both Transneural Skill Extractors and Transneural Skill Packets can be freely traded on the market for ISK This idea is at its early stages and thus open to change depending on opinions in the community, my idea is exactly that. I am not enforcing or confirming your quote will take place. Simply putting my idea to the community and CCP. Idea that something avalible only for RL money is defenetly bad because it's pay to win mechanic. |
Dave Stark
7609
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:17:07 -
[3499] - Quote
Urziel99 wrote:Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar.
SP isn't winning.
however, it's a dumb idea to produce SP from the ether because that removes any kind of supply limit on it. that is very, very bad. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:19:20 -
[3500] - Quote
Urziel99 wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether youGÇÖre an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you donGÇÖt use any more, a clever new player looking to invest your fortune into your character, a Corp leader trying to move everyone into a new doctrine or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly ArmageddonGÇÖs than Stilettos, this feature has you covered"
If its a player customization approach then why not actually give us just that not a sugar coated way to spend cash.
1. Pay for a name change 2. pay for a complete skill remap 3.All new pilots can buy skillpoint packages direct from ccp same as plex 500,000 sp's $6.99 for a limited time say 1 /2 /3 months then it ends - this will benefit the new who want to jump straight into shinies who gives a rats ass if it goes pop.
Character bazaar bought ingame for the fear of RMT, dont quite know what use it would be but its still available then.
That about covers customization CCP win on 1 / 2 and definately 3 Client base win on 1 and 2
Doesnt seem to matter anymore about histories, core principals as long as everyone gets there fix.
Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar.
Thats what everything is moving towards though with this step now, like i said why sugar coat something. A turd is still a turd even if its covered in icing. |
|
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3219
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:21:25 -
[3501] - Quote
Bowing to the instant gratification crowd generally leads to high turnover in player base, most commonly those who take advantage of the options of instant gratification.
I don't like the character bazaar but I understand where CCP was trying to cut RTM out for buying and selling characters
I don't like the idea at is core, so any variation of the idea I still wont like but deep down I feel like this is going to happen no matter what players have to say.
That being said here are some of the lease damaging ways I could see this implemented:
- You can't have more SP that your theoretical maximum. So a character who is 7 months old would have a theoretical maximum of 13,608,000 SP. (7*30*24*2700) A 5 year old character would have maximum of 116,640,000 SP. This would lessen the punishment if a player was never taught about remaps or learning implants, it also effects all players equally as there is only so many time you could use this.
You can only inject skill levels. A player would need to remove a skill level from there character and sell that on the market rather than unallocated SP. Less flexible but also less exploitation could occur from this option.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
|
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:25:56 -
[3502] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:General Lootit wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:CCP: C.) You do not, can not, buy Skill Extractors on the market and can only purchase through Aurum. (Profit for CCP) *Obviously open to debate, just thinking of CCP gains as a company.
You are quite wrong. Citate from dev blogQuote:Both Transneural Skill Extractors and Transneural Skill Packets can be freely traded on the market for ISK This idea is at its early stages and thus open to change depending on opinions in the community, my idea is exactly that. I am not enforcing or confirming your quote will take place. Simply putting my idea to the community and CCP. Idea that something avalible only for RL money is defenetly bad because it's pay to win mechanic.
Ok, lets for example say this:
You have 5M SP in mining Skill. You do not mine anymore and would like to change your proffesion. You purchase 5x Skill extractors for -ú10 and you use 5 Skill Extractors to receive the 5M SP from you mining skills.
You then have 5M SP unallocated. The time invested into those mining skills does not go anywhere, you can simply re-distribute into gunnery or the possiblity to flying a new ship.
Going from mining to flying a new ship does not win EVE. You are paying for a convenience, this is not a P2W mechanic. As stated in my main post, you apply to SP Cap to stop abuse.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:27:13 -
[3503] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Urziel99 wrote:Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar. SP isn't winning. however, it's a dumb idea to produce SP from the ether because that removes any kind of supply limit on it. that is very, very bad.
Why you were an advocate for it before and you said it wouldnt effect anyone, this way it just highlights that those who have deeper RL pockets can benefit from one to three months at the beginning which is where it should only benefit the masses and help the player base grow is it not. |
Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
54
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:27:35 -
[3504] - Quote
If this is going to be implemented, there needs to be a way to find out how many SP a character actually has. Not the exact number, but at least a range should be visible. This will be a bit embarrassing.
|
Pod Me Amidareya
We Do Dirt Jobs
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:28:30 -
[3505] - Quote
It has been said that "Democracy is the worst system of government in existence, except for all the others," and I would have to say the same about this. It has it's problems, and potentials for abuse, but so does the idea of trading entire characters, and this seems designed with safety in mind. Both systems are presented as necessary alternatives to illegal scams available outside of EVE and there is such a thing as the least of many evils. Would CCP Corp profit from this? Probably. But a wealthy CCP means a healthy EVE that will be around for a while for those of us who actually want to play it. I seem to remember a little game called "Earth and Beyond" that saw sunset within a year because it didn't make enough money. I paid $57 for that game and it was gone by the time I had a fast enough internet connection to play it even once. Please, people, have some perspective. |
Luscius Uta
173
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:29:52 -
[3506] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Luscius Uta wrote:tl;dr of this dev blog:
You'll be able to trade ISK for SP.
So nothing that you couldn't do on Character Bazaar before. Yet it somehow offends many of the bittervets, even people who I held in high regard, like Ripard Teg. Probably because conversion rates are basically useless for bittervets (I personally belong in >80M SP category as well but I shed no tears).
First thing, bittervets shouldn't be so greedy about their SP and could instead use this new feature to make new alts and quickly train them up.
Second thing,skill trading isn't going to turn EVE into a Pay2Win game...now, I wasn't around when PLEX was introduced, but I can bet on both my arms and legs that it caused a huge outrcy from people who did their best to convince everyone that PLEX is going to turn EVE into (another) Pay2Win, instant gratification game.
If there's one thing that I think it's bad for the future of EVE, that would be ever-rising PLEX prices. Why? Because they are driving new players away. When I started playing in 2011, PLEX was around 400 millions and grinding for enough ISK to PLEX your account was acceptable deal to much greater percentage of newer players than it is today. Of course, nobody ever had to grind for ISK, but "pay to play" MMOs are outdated and that concept isn't going to attract many new players.
So move along, nothing to see here. Incorrect. You were able to buy characters with higher sp. You were not able to buy sp for a char. kktnxbye.
And why is the former acceptable, but the latter is not? Why would anyone in their right mind buy a new alt just to save few days or weeks from skill training? The fact that skill trading benefits low SP characters much more than vets is the main reason I don't have any problems with it. Anything that benefits newer players is good for EVE, especially with current PLEX prices.
Drifters have arrived - The End is nigh!
|
Dave Stark
7609
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:31:12 -
[3507] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Urziel99 wrote:Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar. SP isn't winning. however, it's a dumb idea to produce SP from the ether because that removes any kind of supply limit on it. that is very, very bad. Why you were an advocate for it before and you said it wouldnt effect anyone, this way it just highlights that those who have deeper RL pockets can benefit from one to three months at the beginning which is where it should only benefit the masses and help the player base grow is it not.
i'm still an advocate for buying and selling SP between players.
i'm not an advocate of buying SP from CCP who produce it from thin air.
do i have to explain the difference there? i hope not, i assumed you weren't that ignorant. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
216
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:31:44 -
[3508] - Quote
Urziel99 wrote:Maybe you should pretend like people who actually know who CCP Zinfindel was and who he plays as aren't in the room. Better yet don't pretend.
I thought you blocked me, apparently you're a liar.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:33:59 -
[3509] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Ok, lets for example say this:
You have 5M SP in mining Skill. You do not mine anymore and would like to change your proffesion. You purchase 5x Skill extractors for -ú10 and you use 5 Skill Extractors to receive the 5M SP from you mining skills.
You then have 5M SP unallocated. The time invested into those mining skills does not go anywhere, you can simply re-distribute into gunnery or the possiblity to flying a new ship.
Going from mining to flying a new ship does not win EVE. You are paying for a convenience, this is not a P2W mechanic. As stated in my main post, you apply an SP Cap to stop abuse.
In EVE "Pay 2 win" term has meaning that someone who wont to pay can't accses same features which payers does. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:34:05 -
[3510] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Urziel99 wrote:Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar. SP isn't winning. however, it's a dumb idea to produce SP from the ether because that removes any kind of supply limit on it. that is very, very bad. Why you were an advocate for it before and you said it wouldnt effect anyone, this way it just highlights that those who have deeper RL pockets can benefit from one to three months at the beginning which is where it should only benefit the masses and help the player base grow is it not. i'm still an advocate for buying and selling SP between players. i'm not an advocate of buying SP from CCP who produce it from thin air. do i have to explain the difference there? i hope not, i assumed you weren't that ignorant.
Seeing as your blind to the difference between Bazaar and TSP , i cannot see any difference to mine its for the benefit of New players and CCP win / win. |
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
216
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:34:16 -
[3511] - Quote
Urziel99 wrote:Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar.
No, what it does is remove the consequences of the choices that character made in regards to name, SP allocation and character interaction & history. Buying a char from the bazaar still forces the new owner to deal with those consequences, good and bad. The new system completely circumvents that which has no place in a "choices matter" sandbox MMO.
|
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming The Bastion
127
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:34:38 -
[3512] - Quote
Quote:
Ok, lets for example say this:
You have 5M SP in mining Skill. You do not mine anymore and would like to change your proffesion. You purchase 5x Skill extractors for -ú10 and you use 5 Skill Extractors to receive the 5M SP from you mining skills.
You then have 5M SP unallocated. The time invested into those mining skills does not go anywhere, you can simply re-distribute into gunnery or the possiblity to flying a new ship.
Going from mining to flying a new ship does not win EVE. You are paying for a convenience, this is not a P2W mechanic. As stated in my main post, you apply an SP Cap to stop abuse.
The item must be able to be sold on the market for isk. even if the sp can't be traded. It should not be confined to those who can throw cash at CCP.
|
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming The Bastion
127
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:36:56 -
[3513] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Urziel99 wrote:Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar. No, what it does is remove the consequences of the choices that character made in regards to name, SP allocation and character interaction & history. Buying a char from the bazaar still forces the new owner to deal with those consequences, good and bad. The new system completely circumvents that which has no place in a "choices matter" sandbox MMO.
Those inconveniences are very easy to get around once the sale thread is linked. But I suspect the most vehement opponents of this who aren't looking to ban the bazaar are people who supply the bazzar. |
Dave Stark
7609
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:38:45 -
[3514] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:i cannot see any difference to mine its for the benefit of New players and CCP win / win.
you can't see the issue with an unlimited supply of something entering the game?
seriously? |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
139
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:40:46 -
[3515] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Mag's wrote:CCP Terminus wrote: Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.
Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal? Nice. Daniela Doran wrote:Yes I also really like to know if this is a done deal? The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision. If it was a done deal we'd have put the dev blog out when it was going to be shipped. The whole point of the dev blog is to gather feedback and assess.
And in this thread SP trading received a negative reception. Consider less sensitive revenue streams. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
216
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:47:39 -
[3516] - Quote
Urziel99 wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Urziel99 wrote:Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar. No, what it does is remove the consequences of the choices that character made in regards to name, SP allocation and character interaction & history. Buying a char from the bazaar still forces the new owner to deal with those consequences, good and bad. The new system completely circumvents that which has no place in a "choices matter" sandbox MMO. Those inconveniences are very easy to get around once the sale thread is linked. But I suspect the most vehement opponents of this who aren't looking to ban the bazaar are people who supply the bazzar.
You buy a character with all its choices and history, you will (have to) deal with the consequences of those choices good and bad. The fact that said character got a new owner doesn't break EVE's "choices have consequences" core concept.
With the new system you buy a character (any character regardless of the SP allocation, name or background choices) and simply syphon its raw SP into your own character. Concept wise that is a MASSIVE difference so the only ones who are ok with this are folks who don't understand or care for EVE's core ideas or ones who don't give a fck and go for personal benefit. Neither of which are people who should be listened to.
As CCP New DEV stated: CCP needs money, badly. It can't be needed for their core business, EVE itself, because that has been running just fine since forever even with all the fckups and stupidity. That means it HAS to be because of silliness and pet projects, why should be agree for CCP to monetize and squander EVE's core values for that? They tried that in 2011, it back fired. Now they're trying it again. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1769
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:50:00 -
[3517] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:...
It's no secret to me that you're a Dev alt Dave and you're most likely the main one who's constructed this insidiously cancerous idea and is trying your best to convert the masses in this thread to follow your plot. I'm not buying it and I seriously hope no one else will because I know what it will lead to in the future.
But this post is something that you really, REALLY need to comprehend. Please try your best to get this Dave. Try harder and harder if you have to.
I'm wondering if I'm the only person who when reading this had the voice of HAL in their head... |
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming The Bastion
127
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:53:24 -
[3518] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:...
It's no secret to me that you're a Dev alt Dave and you're most likely the main one who's constructed this insidiously cancerous idea and is trying your best to convert the masses in this thread to follow your plot. I'm not buying it and I seriously hope no one else will because I know what it will lead to in the future.
But this post is something that you really, REALLY need to comprehend. Please try your best to get this Dave. Try harder and harder if you have to. I'm wondering if I'm the only person who when reading this had the voice of HAL in their head...
I\m just surprised they were able to post through the mountain of tinfoil. |
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:01:45 -
[3519] - Quote
Quote:In EVE "Pay 2 win" term has meaning that someone who wont to pay can't access same features which payers does.
Yep, I can appreciate that.
I suppose trading on the market and purchasing for $, would not effect my original idea. |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2522
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:11:28 -
[3520] - Quote
Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.
Pros - Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar. - Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression. - More income for CCP. - I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)
Cons - New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar). - Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.) - Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.) - I won't be able to tell how GÇÿpowerfulGÇÖ a character is by their age.
As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
|
Dave Stark
7611
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:14:07 -
[3521] - Quote
Zappity wrote:- I won't be able to tell how GÇÿpowerfulGÇÖ a character is by their age.
As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk.
any character over like a day old is as powerful as the amount of ships on the other side of his cyno. which you can't measure anyway. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
117
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:16:37 -
[3522] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:There's quite a few things I would like to do much more effectively but cannot due to SP limitations.
Sure, I can do them now but since the act is balanced around max skill, it's terribly inefficient thus making it extremely hasslesome and barely accomplishable.
Because I cannot do these things in a manner that is enjoyable, I do not do them as often as I feel I would if it were possible to do them how CCP intended them to be done, at the required skills maximum level.
Because most of the things I want to do, I cannot, it means the few things I can do result in my not doing much most of the time.
Granted, if there's nothing I want to do available at that time, I can always alt tab and play league of legends or civ 5 while I sit in station on comms waiting for opportunities to present themselves. . . . .
But that doesn't seem like too great of a solution, go play other games, now does it?
And this is with my 10mil SP. Imagine how the n00bs 3-4 months in are faring. I bet they're all diamond level now.3+256+84+8+
10mil sp after over a year and half playing. Speaks loads about your abilities and mental capacity, thanks for being on the "supporters" side :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Jared Khanar
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:18:33 -
[3523] - Quote
@ CCP Terminus
As you showed us you are reading in here - please don-¦t forget my questions to you i posted some time ago: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6110431#post6110431
You are also welcome to send me a pm if you don-¦t wan-¦t to talk about this in public. |
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:19:45 -
[3524] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.
Pros - Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar. - Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression. - More income for CCP. - I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)
Cons - New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar). - Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.) - Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.) - I won't be able to tell how GÇÿpowerfulGÇÖ a character is by their age.
As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk.
At this current stage, the update means people will simply set up SP character farms and sell the SP on the market for gains. This is open to abuse and basicly is pay 2 SP win.
This devalues SP and Time, therefore devalues the vet's and players that have supported the game since day 1. It goes against most values and standards of the player base.
The update could work with alot of re/work and restrictions. I posted my idea a few pages back. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
421
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:19:51 -
[3525] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:head outside eve-o and you'll see the myriad of support for this idea - and not from no-name nobodies like me. from people who have been playing for years and have the profile to support that. Took a peek at reddit. Almost all postivies to idea. Almost all of them are like: "Finally, I pay I gain". If this in not microtransaction then what is? The baazar exist just because without it there will be black market like in others MMOs. From what I saw there (reddit) I 100% it will be implemented. It will be moutain of cash for CCP. I can compete with other players within game activities. I can't compete with other players when RL money are involved. It doesn't matter if SP are stripped from alts or just emerge from thin air. It was the same thing like my gfs mmo. They have an items to speed up leveling there. For cash. This was discouraging for her, it was a loop, if she won't pay she'll stay behind. I have the same feeling about this new feature. What is the message new players will see? "Pay"
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:22:56 -
[3526] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:i cannot see any difference to mine its for the benefit of New players and CCP win / win. you can't see the issue with an unlimited supply of something entering the game? seriously?
Okay, seeing as the client is free and in the part if you unsub says we will save this toon yada yada but we can bin it if we want too part .Seek CCP terminus help again to see how many actual characters have not subbed for say 12 months, frees up the DB's free up probably millions upon millions of skillpoints to be biomassed theyre not now entering the game from the ether, just recycling . |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:23:06 -
[3527] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Urziel99 wrote:Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar. No, what it does is remove the consequences of the choices that character made in regards to name, SP allocation and character interaction & history. Buying a char from the bazaar still forces the new owner to deal with those consequences, good and bad. So you want to keep people suffer for their desire to gain more SP? Or for decisions were made not by them but by another people? |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2522
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:23:25 -
[3528] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Zappity wrote:Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.
Pros - Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar. - Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression. - More income for CCP. - I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)
Cons - New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar). - Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.) - Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.) - I won't be able to tell how GÇÿpowerfulGÇÖ a character is by their age.
As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk. At this current stage, the update means people will simply set up SP character farms and sell the SP on the market for gains. This is open to abuse and basicly is pay 2 SP win. This devalues SP and Time, therefore devalues the vet's and players that have supported the game since day 1. It goes against most values and standards of the player base.
This is not valid in the absence of pricing data. You have no idea how expensive it will be and whether setting up SP farms will be a thing.
But even if they are, this is exactly what happens on the Character Bazaar right now.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
117
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:25:25 -
[3529] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Just caught up with the latest posts on this topic.
It would seem that CCP, having noted the overwhelmingly negative feedback, have decided to go ahead with it anyway.
Makes one wonder what was the point of requesting feedback in the first place.
Oh well, onwards, ever onwards. one negative thread on eve-o isn't "overwhelmingly negative" head anywhere outside of this thread and the response isn't nearly as negative. as mike pointed out, you have to be subscribed to post here. considering the positivity of other people - you could quite easily argue this feature could bring many people back to the game. quite frankly with some of the responses in here and how silly they are even if some people left and the net number of players was constant i'd call it a good trade.
Response (at least on eve-o) is quite negative. In term of number of people expressing it. By the amount of posts it might seem equal, but that`s only thanks to you and couple more who spam the thread with support for this efficiently :D
Pity your arguments were not efficient at all, other way lots of people would understand that there is no place for their concerns and change POV and support this.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1769
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:26:50 -
[3530] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.
Pros - Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar. - Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression. - More income for CCP. - I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)
Cons - New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar). - Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.) - Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.) - I won't be able to tell how GÇÿpowerfulGÇÖ a character is by their age.
As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk.
An extra big con is that this essentially tells new players they need to spend extra RL cash (as they won't have ISK) to be a viable pilot. This isn't true and is pretty much milking new players for extra cash.
I would prefer the cerebral accelerator approach along with skill queue templates that can be imported for the basic skills as a starter queue for new players. Cerebral accelerators can be built in game and only work up to a certain age of character as now or up to a hard cap of sp with diminishing returns. Cerebral accelerators could be use to replace implants in drops when (not if) CCP decide to remove them.
These would either be as BPC's or directly as accelerators for sale (I prefer BPC's to boost manufacture too). The drop cerebral accelerators would not have a hard SP cap on them since they are replacing implants but would still be time limited.
Skill queue templates would be very useful as a new player has no idea what to train up but certainly knows what ships they'd like to fly. being able to simply import the skeleton of basic pre-req skills would allow them to set this in a few clicks, and then amend the queue to suit their specific needs. Corps would be able to develop and set their own skill queues for new pilots too in support of their activities. |
|
Dave Stark
7612
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:28:16 -
[3531] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:head outside eve-o and you'll see the myriad of support for this idea - and not from no-name nobodies like me. from people who have been playing for years and have the profile to support that. Took a peek at reddit. Almost all postivies to idea. Almost all of them are like: "Finally, I pay I gain". If this in not microtransaction then what is? The baazar exist just because without it there will be black market like in others MMOs. From what I saw there (reddit) I 100% it will be implemented. It will be moutain of cash for CCP. I can compete with other players within game activities. I can't compete with other players when RL money are involved. It doesn't matter if SP are stripped from alts or just emerge from thin air. It was the same thing like my gfs mmo. They have an items to speed up leveling there. For cash. This was discouraging for her, it was a loop, if she won't pay she'll stay behind. I have the same feeling about this new feature. What is the message new players will see? "Pay"
Do you, currently, feel that you can compete with other players and veterans? |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1756
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:28:33 -
[3532] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.
Pros - Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar. - Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression. - More income for CCP. - I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)
Cons - New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar). - Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.) - Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.) - I won't be able to tell how GÇÿpowerfulGÇÖ a character is by their age.
As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk. How about: "looks like a horrible overprices paywall from a free2play title but the game actually costs 15$ a month."
A new player will see this on the market. It's not hidden somewhere in the forums. He will see the normal slow passive accumulation of SP as a playwall so he spends more money on the game to purchase some internet spaceship skills for real money.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Dave Stark
7612
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:30:00 -
[3533] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:i cannot see any difference to mine its for the benefit of New players and CCP win / win. you can't see the issue with an unlimited supply of something entering the game? seriously? Okay, seeing as the client is free and in the part if you unsub says we will save this toon yada yada but we can bin it if we want too part .Seek CCP terminus help again to see how many actual characters have not subbed for say 12 months, frees up the DB's free up probably millions upon millions of skillpoints to be biomassed theyre not now entering the game from the ether, just recycling .
what? |
Luscius Uta
173
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:30:39 -
[3534] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:i cannot see any difference to mine its for the benefit of New players and CCP win / win. you can't see the issue with an unlimited supply of something entering the game? seriously?
We already have an unlimited supply of ISK entering the game, through most PvE activities. Why is that a bad thing? Do you think EVE would turn for the better if there were no ISK faucets?
Drifters have arrived - The End is nigh!
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
117
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:32:55 -
[3535] - Quote
Luscius Uta wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Luscius Uta wrote:tl;dr of this dev blog:
You'll be able to trade ISK for SP.
So nothing that you couldn't do on Character Bazaar before. Yet it somehow offends many of the bittervets, even people who I held in high regard, like Ripard Teg. Probably because conversion rates are basically useless for bittervets (I personally belong in >80M SP category as well but I shed no tears).
First thing, bittervets shouldn't be so greedy about their SP and could instead use this new feature to make new alts and quickly train them up.
Second thing,skill trading isn't going to turn EVE into a Pay2Win game...now, I wasn't around when PLEX was introduced, but I can bet on both my arms and legs that it caused a huge outrcy from people who did their best to convince everyone that PLEX is going to turn EVE into (another) Pay2Win, instant gratification game.
If there's one thing that I think it's bad for the future of EVE, that would be ever-rising PLEX prices. Why? Because they are driving new players away. When I started playing in 2011, PLEX was around 400 millions and grinding for enough ISK to PLEX your account was acceptable deal to much greater percentage of newer players than it is today. Of course, nobody ever had to grind for ISK, but "pay to play" MMOs are outdated and that concept isn't going to attract many new players.
So move along, nothing to see here. Incorrect. You were able to buy characters with higher sp. You were not able to buy sp for a char. kktnxbye. And why is the former acceptable, but the latter is not? Why would anyone in their right mind buy a new alt just to save few days or weeks from skill training? The fact that skill trading benefits low SP characters much more than vets is the main reason I don't have any problems with it. Anything that benefits newer players is good for EVE, especially with current PLEX prices.
I wrote 4 WOT`s on the subject. Read everything and inform yourself before jumping in discussion if you want to be seen as proper interlocutor, worth time needed for posting explanations.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1769
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:34:04 -
[3536] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:head outside eve-o and you'll see the myriad of support for this idea - and not from no-name nobodies like me. from people who have been playing for years and have the profile to support that. Took a peek at reddit. Almost all postivies to idea. Almost all of them are like: "Finally, I pay I gain". If this in not microtransaction then what is? The baazar exist just because without it there will be black market like in others MMOs. From what I saw there (reddit) I 100% it will be implemented. It will be moutain of cash for CCP. I can compete with other players within game activities. I can't compete with other players when RL money are involved. It doesn't matter if SP are stripped from alts or just emerge from thin air. It was the same thing like my gfs mmo. They have an items to speed up leveling there. For cash. This was discouraging for her, it was a loop, if she won't pay she'll stay behind. I have the same feeling about this new feature. What is the message new players will see? "Pay" Do you, currently, feel that you can compete with other players and veterans?
I any gallente hull up to and including cruisers yes I can. I have exactly the same maxed skills as they do because I chose to train them up. I cannot compete in other hulls but that's because I chose to train manufacturing and invention too. This means I still have other choices to make , and that's the key thing here. I choose what to do and when. With this idea I would have the choice to pay more money instead which for a new player will come across as *have* to pay more to be competitive. Not a good way to encourage new players. |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2522
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:34:33 -
[3537] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Zappity wrote:Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.
Pros - Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar. - Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression. - More income for CCP. - I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)
Cons - New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar). - Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.) - Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.) - I won't be able to tell how GÇÿpowerfulGÇÖ a character is by their age.
As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk. An extra big con is that this essentially tells new players they need to spend extra RL cash (as they won't have ISK) to be a viable pilot. This isn't true and is pretty much milking new players for extra cash. I would prefer the cerebral accelerator approach along with skill queue templates that can be imported for the basic skills as a starter queue for new players. Cerebral accelerators can be built in game and only work up to a certain age of character as now or up to a hard cap of sp with diminishing returns. Cerebral accelerators could be use to replace implants in drops when (not if) CCP decide to remove them. These would either be as BPC's or directly as accelerators for sale (I prefer BPC's to boost manufacture too). The drop cerebral accelerators would not have a hard SP cap on them since they are replacing implants but would still be time limited. Skill queue templates would be very useful as a new player has no idea what to train up but certainly knows what ships they'd like to fly. being able to simply import the skeleton of basic pre-req skills would allow them to set this in a few clicks, and then amend the queue to suit their specific needs. Corps would be able to develop and set their own skill queues for new pilots too in support of their activities. People can conclude exactly the same thing now because of the Character Bazaar. You could also argue that a lot of people leave because they think it will take too long to catch up. In which case this change would be a net positive. Remember that CCP has feedback from players who leave the game to ponder.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Dave Stark
7612
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:34:46 -
[3538] - Quote
Luscius Uta wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:i cannot see any difference to mine its for the benefit of New players and CCP win / win. you can't see the issue with an unlimited supply of something entering the game? seriously? We already have an unlimited supply of ISK entering the game, through most PvE activities. Why is that a bad thing? Do you think EVE would turn for the better if there were no ISK faucets?
no, we don't. it's limited by time and reduced by sinks.
currently there are no SP sinks, and if you sell SP directly from thin air there will be no sinks. the current diminishing returns system only acts as a sink because the SP has to come from another player. it actively removes SP that's already in the game.
excuse my early morning posting. the lack of sinks is more the issue than the unlimited supply. however even an unlimited supply is bad enough. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:36:00 -
[3539] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:i cannot see any difference to mine its for the benefit of New players and CCP win / win. you can't see the issue with an unlimited supply of something entering the game? seriously? Okay, seeing as the client is free and in the part if you unsub says we will save this toon yada yada but we can bin it if we want too part .Seek CCP terminus help again to see how many actual characters have not subbed for say 12 months, frees up the DB's free up probably millions upon millions of skillpoints to be biomassed theyre not now entering the game from the ether, just recycling . what? Okay made easy version for dave.
1000's of unsubbed toons over 12 months old - delete them.
There amassed skillpoints entered into CCP 500,000 packet selling scheme for 6.99
there're not being whipped up now out of the ether we're recycling. |
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:37:01 -
[3540] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Zappity wrote:Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.
Pros - Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar. - Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression. - More income for CCP. - I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)
Cons - New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar). - Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.) - Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.) - I won't be able to tell how GÇÿpowerfulGÇÖ a character is by their age.
As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk. At this current stage, the update means people will simply set up SP character farms and sell the SP on the market for gains. This is open to abuse and basicly is pay 2 SP win. This devalues SP and Time, therefore devalues the vet's and players that have supported the game since day 1. It goes against most values and standards of the player base. This is not valid in the absence of pricing data. You have no idea how expensive it will be and whether setting up SP farms will be a thing. But even if they are, this is exactly what happens on the Character Bazaar right now.
So, lets say for example: SP farms is a prediction, under the current plan to be implemented. We, both have no Idea on how much ISK could be potentially earnt through the new proposed skill extraction. Yet, through probability and the need/want for SP we can agree that SP will be a much desired "ITEM" to be an effective player in game.
If something is to be desired, people will want. More people want, more people will need, the more people will want to supply. This supply will come from Alt Characters / farms to supply buyers.
TIME & SP are linked. Take Time away and the value of SP is none existent. People before you that have developed there characters have lost all value to their character and this goes against the values and standards of what makes EVE, EVE.
Character Bazaar: Yes People set up accounts to be Sold on the Bazaar, accounts that fly specific ships / do specific things in eve. All of which takes TIME and TIME should have a place in EVE.
|
|
Dave Stark
7612
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:37:11 -
[3541] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:head outside eve-o and you'll see the myriad of support for this idea - and not from no-name nobodies like me. from people who have been playing for years and have the profile to support that. Took a peek at reddit. Almost all postivies to idea. Almost all of them are like: "Finally, I pay I gain". If this in not microtransaction then what is? The baazar exist just because without it there will be black market like in others MMOs. From what I saw there (reddit) I 100% it will be implemented. It will be moutain of cash for CCP. I can compete with other players within game activities. I can't compete with other players when RL money are involved. It doesn't matter if SP are stripped from alts or just emerge from thin air. It was the same thing like my gfs mmo. They have an items to speed up leveling there. For cash. This was discouraging for her, it was a loop, if she won't pay she'll stay behind. I have the same feeling about this new feature. What is the message new players will see? "Pay" Do you, currently, feel that you can compete with other players and veterans? I any gallente hull up to and including cruisers yes I can. I have exactly the same maxed skills as they do because I chose to train them up. I cannot compete in other hulls but that's because I chose to train manufacturing and invention too. This means I still have other choices to make , and that's the key thing here. I choose what to do and when. With this idea I would have the choice to pay more money instead which for a new player will come across as *have* to pay more to be competitive. Not a good way to encourage new players.
so if you can feel you can compete now, in a system where people are able to purchase characters with significantly more SP than you. why can't you compete in a new system where people are able to purchase SP directly and have characters with significantly more SP than you?
does it matter if that 60m SP pilot that just wiped the floor with you was purchased via the bazaar or pumped with TSPs?
also, none of these options are exclusive to people with a credit card. they are available to everyone via isk. the buyer is under 0 obligation to pay any irl currency as all non-optional currency related payments are made by the seller. |
Dave Stark
7612
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:37:57 -
[3542] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:i cannot see any difference to mine its for the benefit of New players and CCP win / win. you can't see the issue with an unlimited supply of something entering the game? seriously? Okay, seeing as the client is free and in the part if you unsub says we will save this toon yada yada but we can bin it if we want too part .Seek CCP terminus help again to see how many actual characters have not subbed for say 12 months, frees up the DB's free up probably millions upon millions of skillpoints to be biomassed theyre not now entering the game from the ether, just recycling . what? Okay made easy version for dave. 1000's of unsubbed toons over 12 months old - delete them. There amassed skillpoints entered into CCP 500,000 packet selling scheme for 6.99 there're not being whipped up now out of the ether we're recycling.
now you're suggesting we delete people's characters? are you serious? |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2522
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:39:04 -
[3543] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Zappity wrote:Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.
Pros - Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar. - Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression. - More income for CCP. - I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)
Cons - New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar). - Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.) - Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.) - I won't be able to tell how GÇÿpowerfulGÇÖ a character is by their age.
As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk. How about: "looks like a horrible overprices paywall from a free2play title but the game actually costs 15$ a month." A new player will see this on the market. It's not hidden somewhere in the forums. He will see the normal slow passive accumulation of SP as a playwall so he spends more money on the game to purchase some internet spaceship skills for real money. I see no problem here. Slow accumulation of skill points IS a play wall in the sense of some content being locked, regardless of how relevant that is to enjoyment or relevance. If people wish to overcome that play wall with cash/ISK then good for them. It can be done with the bazaar right now.
I knew about the character bazaar within about a week of starting. It isn't exactly hidden.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:41:06 -
[3544] - Quote
[/quote]
Okay, seeing as the client is free and in the part if you unsub says we will save this toon yada yada but we can bin it if we want too part .Seek CCP terminus help again to see how many actual characters have not subbed for say 12 months, frees up the DB's free up probably millions upon millions of skillpoints to be biomassed theyre not now entering the game from the ether, just recycling .[/quote]
what? [/quote] Okay made easy version for dave.
1000's of unsubbed toons over 12 months old - delete them.
There amassed skillpoints entered into CCP 500,000 packet selling scheme for 6.99
there're not being whipped up now out of the ether we're recycling.[/quote]
now you're suggesting we delete people's characters? are you serious?[/quote]
CCP states that there are under no obligation to keep an unsubbed character for any predetimined length of time, why is this an afront to you when you think its fine to disect characters of any age. |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2522
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:41:47 -
[3545] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Zappity wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Zappity wrote:Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.
Pros - Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar. - Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression. - More income for CCP. - I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)
Cons - New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar). - Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.) - Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.) - I won't be able to tell how GÇÿpowerfulGÇÖ a character is by their age.
As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk. At this current stage, the update means people will simply set up SP character farms and sell the SP on the market for gains. This is open to abuse and basicly is pay 2 SP win. This devalues SP and Time, therefore devalues the vet's and players that have supported the game since day 1. It goes against most values and standards of the player base. This is not valid in the absence of pricing data. You have no idea how expensive it will be and whether setting up SP farms will be a thing. But even if they are, this is exactly what happens on the Character Bazaar right now. So, lets say for example: SP farms is a prediction, under the current plan to be implemented. We, both have no Idea on how much ISK could be potentially earnt through the new proposed skill extraction. Yet, through probability and the need/want for SP we can agree that SP will be a much desired "ITEM" to be an effective player in game. If something is to be desired, people will want. More people want, more people will need, the more people will want to supply. This supply will come from Alt Characters / farms to supply buyers. TIME & SP are linked. Take Time away and the value of SP is none existent. People before you that have developed there characters have lost all value to their character and this goes against the values and standards of what makes EVE, EVE. Character Bazaar: Yes People set up accounts to be Sold on the Bazaar, accounts that fly specific ships / do specific things in eve. All of which takes TIME and TIME should have a place in EVE. Time still plays a role. The SP is still earned, not created de novo. If you are talking about instant gratification vs time, the same argument can again be made for the bazaar.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Dave Stark
7612
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:43:13 -
[3546] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:CCP states that there are under no obligation to keep an unsubbed character for any predetimined length of time, why is this an afront to you when you think its fine to disect characters of any age.
are you really asking me to explain how selling SP and deleting whole characters/accounts is different? do you need me to explain how night and day differ too? or chalk and cheese?
please tell me you're trolling, if not... mother of god... |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2522
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:43:21 -
[3547] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:...currently there are no SP sinks... My pedantic side insists that I point out T3 cruiser destruction :)
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1769
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:44:39 -
[3548] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
An extra big con is that this essentially tells new players they need to spend extra RL cash (as they won't have ISK) to be a viable pilot. This isn't true and is pretty much milking new players for extra cash.
I would prefer the cerebral accelerator approach along with skill queue templates that can be imported for the basic skills as a starter queue for new players. Cerebral accelerators can be built in game and only work up to a certain age of character as now or up to a hard cap of sp with diminishing returns. Cerebral accelerators could be use to replace implants in drops when (not if) CCP decide to remove them.
These would either be as BPC's or directly as accelerators for sale (I prefer BPC's to boost manufacture too). The drop cerebral accelerators would not have a hard SP cap on them since they are replacing implants but would still be time limited.
Skill queue templates would be very useful as a new player has no idea what to train up but certainly knows what ships they'd like to fly. being able to simply import the skeleton of basic pre-req skills would allow them to set this in a few clicks, and then amend the queue to suit their specific needs. Corps would be able to develop and set their own skill queues for new pilots too in support of their activities.
People can conclude exactly the same thing now because of the Character Bazaar. You could also argue that a lot of people leave because they think it will take too long to catch up. In which case this change would be a net positive. Remember that CCP has feedback from players who leave the game to ponder.
Character bazaar is different in that they train at exactly the same speed but as you say CCP have all sorts of feedback to consider. However they don't seem to be considering the feedback from the existing player base over the last few years of my time in the game where most people I've seen have been against this kind of thing.
In my view CCP will do whatever they feel is best. I'm not in support of the current idea as it stands and tried to propose a different approach that has other benefits too without changing one of the core tenets of EvE.
As ever I'll just adapt to any incoming changes (like the gimping of my beloved gila :( ) but I don't think draining more cash from new players is necessarily the best way to go. Which would feel best to a new player: Paying a PLEX for a skill pack for instant gain or finding the cerebral implant for increased skill training in a combat site/mission reward? What will help a new player more: Having to work out what skills to throw unallocated SP at and then feeling *very* annoyed when they realize they put the SP they paid for in the wrong place, or being given a skillqueue import pack that will then guide their increased SP gain into the correct locations?
I'm not one of those who just says 'Nononononononoragequitnonononono...', but rather try to propose alternatives if I disagree with a proposed approach. |
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:48:09 -
[3549] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...currently there are no SP sinks... My pedantic side insists that I point out T3 cruiser destruction :)
point taken but every non-t3 subsystem skill has no sink.there are only going to be more and more people with any given non-t3 subsystem skill in the game. |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2523
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:52:18 -
[3550] - Quote
Regarding SP farms, I actually don't mind this at all. SP will effectively become fungible and this will provide increased value for poorly skilled characters on the bazaar. Not good if you are a character trader but not bad for a seller.
But I think there will be a long period of rationalisation where the market soaks up unwanted SP. The price may even initially dip below the eventual long term price as people capitalise on their characters' SP fat. Good trading opportunities. I love that there is a built-in sink in the form of reduced application for high SP characters.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
214
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:52:56 -
[3551] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want. We all buy into the philosophy that eve is a game of trade and competition as it has been from day one, but do you accept that from the overwhelming negative feedback it is clear that players do not want that philosophy transferred to skill points?
Players have never asked for SP to be tradable, and in fact are overwhelmingly opposed to such an idea.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2523
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 09:54:28 -
[3552] - Quote
Also, I really think CCP should increase the application reduction from 50m to 75m.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I have 60m SP. Shame on you for thinking that.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:01:40 -
[3553] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.
as does creating a TSP.
this system doesn't provide an instant win - some one still has to train the SP just like the bazaar system so it will still take time. |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2523
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:03:10 -
[3554] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Someone has spent the Time to develop that specific character to sell on the Bazaar, it would have taken him 1-2 Years to develop something of potential and then someone to use that character efficiently.
Time has a value. Integrating the new proposed skill extraction on mutiple accounts / alts to sell on the market for a 6 month old character to boost him self up to 200M SP because he can, goes against Values and Standards of vet players and effectively the majority of EVE player base.
Character Bazaar is a valid option to boost your SP since the characters have been developed through time and had some history to them. This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.
But someone has similarly spent time creating the skill points which will appear on the market. Skill point CREATION does not change at all. You could argue that extracted SP will, on average, have taken longer to generate since character bazaar SP are generally highly optimised.
Edit: yeah, what he said above
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
186
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:05:01 -
[3555] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:having things hidden behind arbitrary waits may have been good when the game was new and they had to have some form of pacing... but there's no need for pacing 12 years down the line. We need whole system rebalance then, rather putting make up on the corpse. Avatar based system was took from RPG game with attributes and skills, if not working properly it's a point when need close look up and change. All I hear: "you may compete but you need to pay". Edit: Dave, it's become "Dave personal thread about SP", we all know your opinion about it by now. Do you ever sleep? Take a day off, or week maybe. Yo don't have to quote every answer in this thread.
He's a Dev and this was his idea. He needs support or else he may get terminated from CCP.
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
425
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:05:11 -
[3556] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Do you, currently, feel that you can compete with other players and veterans? I do. My main hitted round 2,5 year 17.10.2015. I accumulated around 48 mil SP on him. I was miner, missioner, explorer. I think I'll go wormholes now (if I'll be still playing). Most of all I gained the experience what EvE is and how to play it. All my choices in this game matters. I've learn from my mistakes. It can't be done in a week. Where is the problem? "Leveling up". For some of the players it's too slow. How fast should it be? How we should change it? and why we should change it? because some pvper don't have acces to all ship that he wants to fly? I can't have best set items and highest level in WoW, can I? I must play the game to achieve something. As I write before, EvE is based on RPG avatar system, when we remove last thing that can't be bought, we may rename our clones to "slot 1", "slot 2" etc. They will be like frags.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
215
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:06:08 -
[3557] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Moac Tor wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want. We all buy into the philosophy that eve is a game of trade and competition as it has been from day one, but do you accept that from the overwhelming negative feedback it is clear that players do not want that philosophy transferred to skill points? Players have never asked for SP to be tradable, and in fact are overwhelmingly opposed to such an idea. What? This general idea has to be one of the most commonly requested features on the forum! Possibly just below the old 'remove cloaky camping' request, which I fully expect to be implemented with the new structures. You are confusing the occasional misinformed person asking with the overwhelming majority view of the playerbase.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
45
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:08:32 -
[3558] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:CCP states that there are under no obligation to keep an unsubbed character for any predetimined length of time, why is this an afront to you when you think its fine to disect characters of any age. are you really asking me to explain how selling SP and deleting whole characters/accounts is different? do you need me to explain how night and day differ too? or chalk and cheese? please tell me you're trolling, if not... mother of god...
No im being deadly serious, your trying to twist why its fine to deconstruct a character to sell for skillpoints that wont really benefit a new player unless they pay real money, why its an afront to so many players in the game to alter one of the main things that is a constant in eve.
To flip it to you im giving you an alternative, it offers full customization and actually does help the new player / richer IRL player, what does it matter that we are deleting accounts to get skillpoints, theyre under no obligation to keep anything, i dont care about caldari / gallente / minmatar citizen 53820016 who's not played for 12 months who gives a flying fudge, its all about the skillpoints now. |
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:11:04 -
[3559] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:CCP states that there are under no obligation to keep an unsubbed character for any predetimined length of time, why is this an afront to you when you think its fine to disect characters of any age. are you really asking me to explain how selling SP and deleting whole characters/accounts is different? do you need me to explain how night and day differ too? or chalk and cheese? please tell me you're trolling, if not... mother of god... No im being deadly serious, your trying to twist why its fine to deconstruct a character to sell for skillpoints that wont really benefit a new player unless they pay real money, why its an afront to so many players in the game to alter one of the main things that is a constant in eve. To flip it to you im giving you an alternative, it offers full customization and actually does help the new player / richer IRL player, what does it matter that we are deleting accounts to get skillpoints, theyre under no obligation to keep anything, i dont care about caldari / gallente / minmatar citizen 53820016 who's not played for 12 months who gives a flying fudge, its all about the skillpoints now.
players choosing to biomass characters for SP to sell - yeah sure, go for it. literally no different to what we have now and what's proposed.
CCP arbitrarily deleting people's characters/accounts - not cool. |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2525
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:12:12 -
[3560] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Zappity wrote:Moac Tor wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want. We all buy into the philosophy that eve is a game of trade and competition as it has been from day one, but do you accept that from the overwhelming negative feedback it is clear that players do not want that philosophy transferred to skill points? Players have never asked for SP to be tradable, and in fact are overwhelmingly opposed to such an idea. What? This general idea has to be one of the most commonly requested features on the forum! Possibly just below the old 'remove cloaky camping' request, which I fully expect to be implemented with the new structures. You are confusing the occasional misinformed person asking with the overwhelming majority view of the playerbase. It would not be called a 'sacred cow' if it were uncontroversial. But this is one that needs to be turned into a steak.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
45
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:13:45 -
[3561] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:CCP states that there are under no obligation to keep an unsubbed character for any predetimined length of time, why is this an afront to you when you think its fine to disect characters of any age. are you really asking me to explain how selling SP and deleting whole characters/accounts is different? do you need me to explain how night and day differ too? or chalk and cheese? please tell me you're trolling, if not... mother of god... No im being deadly serious, your trying to twist why its fine to deconstruct a character to sell for skillpoints that wont really benefit a new player unless they pay real money, why its an afront to so many players in the game to alter one of the main things that is a constant in eve. To flip it to you im giving you an alternative, it offers full customization and actually does help the new player / richer IRL player, what does it matter that we are deleting accounts to get skillpoints, theyre under no obligation to keep anything, i dont care about caldari / gallente / minmatar citizen 53820016 who's not played for 12 months who gives a flying fudge, its all about the skillpoints now. players choosing to biomass characters for SP to sell - yeah sure, go for it. literally no different to what we have now and what's proposed. CCP arbitrarily deleting people's characters/accounts - not cool.
Not players CCP, were doing it for the good of the new player base who is fed up that they cant jump into a tengu within 2 days, what does it matter to you that if you cant be arsed to play for 12 months its gone, your going to be fine |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:15:25 -
[3562] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote: I must play the game to achieve something.
In case of traning you really don't. Set up traning quee and wait until it done. |
Dynamus Deckerman
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:16:57 -
[3563] - Quote
Big Lynx wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:[ Mr Epeen Isn't that brutally exhausting to type that Mr Epeen below every single stupid post?!?
Some people just think they're just to cool that they got to do something like that to make you believe that they're so cool when they're not.
EDIT: Mr. Epeen, I don't think you're cool at all, so you can stop doing that.
|
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:17:31 -
[3564] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.
as does creating a TSP. this system doesn't provide an instant win - some one still has to train the SP just like the bazaar system so it will still take time.
But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time.
Lets say: Your rich in RL, you purchase 100 Plex and sell it in game to purchase 200m SP character on the bazaar. The time and effort put into that character has always been around since it was created, you are rich enough to purchase a decent toon. Shame you dont know what to do with it.
You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE. Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / -ú is not right in my eyes. |
Dave stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:17:41 -
[3565] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Not players CCP, were doing it for the good of the new player base who is fed up that they cant jump into a tengu within 2 days, what does it matter to you that if you cant be arsed to play for 12 months its gone, your going to be fine
remind me how arbitrarily deleting people's characters benefits new players? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
46
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:18:16 -
[3566] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote: I must play the game to achieve something.
In case of traning you really don't. Set up traning quee and wait until it done. So the past 12 years everyone that has played the game has come on stuck there learning skills in and thought god damn it, ill go back play something else now till i can do something, cant do much in a frigate, dont know why these are even in the game |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
46
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:19:19 -
[3567] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Not players CCP, were doing it for the good of the new player base who is fed up that they cant jump into a tengu within 2 days, what does it matter to you that if you cant be arsed to play for 12 months its gone, your going to be fine remind me how arbitrarily deleting people's characters benefits new players?
You said we couldnt pull skillpoints out of thin air, so i gave you a totally viable alternative than the ether. |
Dave stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:23:27 -
[3568] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.
as does creating a TSP. this system doesn't provide an instant win - some one still has to train the SP just like the bazaar system so it will still take time. But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time. Lets say: Your rich in RL, you purchase 100 Plex and sell it in game to purchase 200m SP character on the bazaar. The time and effort put into that character has always been around since it was created, you are rich enough to purchase a decent toon. Shame you dont know what to do with it. You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE. Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / -ú is not right in my eyes.
which is exactly what you can do now, on the character bazzar. you're buying a big ol' lump of SP.
"Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / -ú" - you're literally describing how the bazaar works. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
215
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:24:18 -
[3569] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Zappity wrote:Moac Tor wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want. We all buy into the philosophy that eve is a game of trade and competition as it has been from day one, but do you accept that from the overwhelming negative feedback it is clear that players do not want that philosophy transferred to skill points? Players have never asked for SP to be tradable, and in fact are overwhelmingly opposed to such an idea. What? This general idea has to be one of the most commonly requested features on the forum! Possibly just below the old 'remove cloaky camping' request, which I fully expect to be implemented with the new structures. You are confusing the occasional misinformed person asking with the overwhelming majority view of the playerbase. It would not be called a 'sacred cow' if it were uncontroversial. But this is one that needs to be turned into a steak. Judging from the feedback in this thread it would seem that your stance on the subject is not shared by the majority of people in this thread and would not be too healthy for subscription numbers.
Yes you could just write this all off as idle threats, but if you are in CCPs position would you want to really risk it and be the one who bought a 12 year old game to its knees just so you can implement this?
Everyone realised that jump fatigue and the sov changes needed to be done, and so despite the negative reactions players stuck with CCP as we knew we could not keep the status quo. This on the other hand is much more dangerous as it all to close to Incarna.
I actually think a lot of players have already let micro transactions slip in through the back door in the form of ship SKINs, a feature that nearly everyone had wanted, but somehow CCP cleverly managed to tie it to microtransactions without much of a fuss from the players. It was explained away at the time that it is fine as ship skins are cosmetic items; this idea on the other hand is going to be different as SPs are far from cosmetic.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:25:23 -
[3570] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:having things hidden behind arbitrary waits may have been good when the game was new and they had to have some form of pacing... but there's no need for pacing 12 years down the line. We need whole system rebalance then, rather putting make up on the corpse. Avatar based system was took from RPG game with attributes and skills, if not working properly it's a point when need close look up and change. All I hear: "you may compete but you need to pay". Edit: Dave, it's become "Dave personal thread about SP", we all know your opinion about it by now. Do you ever sleep? Take a day off, or week maybe. Yo don't have to quote every answer in this thread. He's a Dev and this was his idea. He needs support or else he may get terminated from CCP. I also support this idea. Can I be a Dev too? Pleeeease =) |
|
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2525
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:25:26 -
[3571] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.
as does creating a TSP. this system doesn't provide an instant win - some one still has to train the SP just like the bazaar system so it will still take time. But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time. Lets say: Your rich in RL, you purchase 100 Plex and sell it in game to purchase 200m SP character on the bazaar. The time and effort put into that character has always been around since it was created, you are rich enough to purchase a decent toon. Shame you dont know what to do with it. You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE. Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / -ú is not right in my eyes. I will be disappointed if CCP do not add a renaming token, purchasable with aurum, shortly after the SP change.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
219
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:25:40 -
[3572] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.
as does creating a TSP. this system doesn't provide an instant win - some one still has to train the SP just like the bazaar system so it will still take time. But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time. Lets say: Your rich in RL, you purchase 100 Plex and sell it in game to purchase 200m SP character on the bazaar. The time and effort put into that character has always been around since it was created, you are rich enough to purchase a decent toon. Shame you dont know what to do with it. You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE. Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / -ú is not right in my eyes. which is exactly what you can do now, on the character bazzar. you're buying a big ol' lump of SP. "Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / -ú" - you're literally describing how the bazaar works.
If it's exactly the same, then why do we need it? Do explain. |
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:26:42 -
[3573] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.
as does creating a TSP. this system doesn't provide an instant win - some one still has to train the SP just like the bazaar system so it will still take time. But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time. Lets say: Your rich in RL, you purchase 100 Plex and sell it in game to purchase 200m SP character on the bazaar. The time and effort put into that character has always been around since it was created, you are rich enough to purchase a decent toon. Shame you dont know what to do with it. You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE. Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / -ú is not right in my eyes. which is exactly what you can do now, on the character bazzar. you're buying a big ol' lump of SP. "Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / -ú" - you're literally describing how the bazaar works. If it's exactly the same, then why do we need it? Do explain.
i, ccp terminus, and the devblog have answered this question. idiotic questions like this are why the thread is so long.
do read. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:27:13 -
[3574] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.
as does creating a TSP. this system doesn't provide an instant win - some one still has to train the SP just like the bazaar system so it will still take time. But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time. Lets say: Your rich in RL, you purchase 100 Plex and sell it in game to purchase 200m SP character on the bazaar. The time and effort put into that character has always been around since it was created, you are rich enough to purchase a decent toon. Shame you dont know what to do with it. You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE. Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / -ú is not right in my eyes. which is exactly what you can do now, on the character bazzar. you're buying a big ol' lump of SP. "Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / -ú" - you're literally describing how the bazaar works.
That is exactley the way im describing to you how TSP works grab a pile of insignifcant old players and harvest there resources for CCP to sell, what is the difference, apart from me bringing this whole topic to your level of understanding taking the compation / history / values of the game out of the equation. |
Professor Xander Farnsworth
CBC Interstellar Fidelas Constans
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:31:47 -
[3575] - Quote
Fantastic Idea that I have been long time waiting for. Perhaps for too long...
I have 3 accounts and 3 toons 50Mill Sp, 30Mill Sp and 20Mill Sp. My chars are capable of earning me enough that i can buy 80-100M Sp toon every month from Bazaar. I've been considering to buy some already but now... I will be able to buy those skillpoints for my own toon that I have given name to . It is brilliant alternative for people who actually care about names. Honestly, I completely don't understand people who complain about it. Where the hell is the difference between buying a toon from bazaar and buying skillpoints for own toon? No matter how short time I've been playing the game I can have any amount of skillpoints from Bazaar right now - there is completely no need to wait all those years anyway. There is no logic in such complaining and the dissatisfaction doesn't have any grounds. It seems that people like to complain just because something is slightly different than they imagine about it.
|
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:31:50 -
[3576] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:That is exactley the way im describing to you how TSP works grab a pile of insignifcant old players and harvest there resources for CCP to sell, what is the difference, apart from me bringing this whole topic to your level of understanding taking the compation / history / values of the game out of the equation.
i pointed out the difference; ccp arbitrarily deleting characters.
you seem to think that's perfectly acceptable. which it is, if yours is the first to go. |
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:32:14 -
[3577] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.
as does creating a TSP. this system doesn't provide an instant win - some one still has to train the SP just like the bazaar system so it will still take time. But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time. Lets say: Your rich in RL, you purchase 100 Plex and sell it in game to purchase 200m SP character on the bazaar. The time and effort put into that character has always been around since it was created, you are rich enough to purchase a decent toon. Shame you dont know what to do with it. You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE. Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / -ú is not right in my eyes. which is exactly what you can do now, on the character bazzar. you're buying a big ol' lump of SP. "Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / -ú" - you're literally describing how the bazaar works. If it's exactly the same, then why do we need it? Do explain.
This
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:33:34 -
[3578] - Quote
Professor Xander Farnsworth wrote:Fantastic Idea that I have been long time waiting for. Perhaps for too long...
I have 3 accounts and 3 toons 50Mill Sp, 30Mill Sp and 20Mill Sp. My chars are capable of earning me enough that i can buy 80-100M Sp toon every month from Bazaar. I've been considering to buy some already but now... I will be able to buy those skillpoints for my own toon that I have given name to . It is brilliant alternative for people who actually care about names. Honestly, I completely don't understand people who complain about it. Where the hell is the difference between buying a toon from bazaar and buying skillpoints for own toon? No matter how short time I've been playing the game I can have any amount of skillpoints from Bazaar right now - there is completely no need to wait all those years anyway. There is no logic in such complaining and the dissatisfaction doesn't have any grounds. It seems that people like to complain just because something is slightly different than they imagine about it.
I rest my case. |
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:33:37 -
[3579] - Quote
you could like, read the devblog... which clearly states why.
|
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2525
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:34:56 -
[3580] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Zappity wrote:It would not be called a 'sacred cow' if it were uncontroversial. But this is one that needs to be turned into a steak. Judging from the feedback in this thread it would seem that your stance on the subject is not shared by the majority of people in this thread and would not be too healthy for subscription numbers. Yes you could just write this all off as idle threats, but if you are in CCPs position would you want to really risk it and be the one who bought a 12 year old game to its knees just so you can implement this? Everyone realised that jump fatigue and the sov changes needed to be done, and so despite the negative reactions players stuck with CCP as we knew we could not keep the status quo. This on the other hand is much more dangerous as it all to close to Incarna. I actually think a lot of players have already let micro transactions slip in through the back door in the form of ship SKINs, a feature that nearly everyone had wanted, but somehow CCP cleverly managed to tie it to microtransactions without much of a fuss from the players. It was explained away at the time that it is fine as ship skins are cosmetic items; this idea on the other hand is going to be different as SPs are far from cosmetic. Rubbish. People won't quit over this. Why would they? It doesn't materially affect your game play if you choose not to participate. I And the feedback on reddit was very different to here, indicating that there is a possibile significant upside.
Don't like microtransactions? Simply don't do them. Buy from the market instead. If this was a "soul-bound" proposal I would be dead against it. But it isn't so I have no problem with it.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:35:29 -
[3581] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:That is exactley the way im describing to you how TSP works grab a pile of insignifcant old players and harvest there resources for CCP to sell, what is the difference, apart from me bringing this whole topic to your level of understanding taking the compation / history / values of the game out of the equation. i pointed out the difference; ccp arbitrarily deleting characters. you seem to think that's perfectly acceptable. which it is, if yours is the first to go.
I pay for mine every month, subbed on all .only over 12 months unsubbed need to go |
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:36:55 -
[3582] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:That is exactley the way im describing to you how TSP works grab a pile of insignifcant old players and harvest there resources for CCP to sell, what is the difference, apart from me bringing this whole topic to your level of understanding taking the compation / history / values of the game out of the equation. i pointed out the difference; ccp arbitrarily deleting characters. you seem to think that's perfectly acceptable. which it is, if yours is the first to go. I pay for mine every month, subbed on all .only over 12 months unsubbed need to go
so you should have an advantage because you pay? isn't that the very thing you're crusading against? |
Morkan Damosty
Federation Gallente Libre
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:37:33 -
[3583] - Quote
Interesting topic. LetGÇÖs contribute.
First of all, I consider myself as a rookie pilot (just one year's Eve on next month). What a rookie pilot thinks about that ?
Like all recents players on Eve, I look forward to fly super ships T2 or T3, with all skills coming with. I dream of freedom, to try everything efficiently, without confining myself as a Explorer, Miner, Trader, Industrial or Gang. I do not like the idea of specialization. In a game, we should be able to explore all its possibilities, otherwise it's no fun.
Also, I do not appreciate, as soon as I try to fly in LS, to be the easy prey for former players who will destroying me without reasons (no money to make with rookies), with their super ship, simply because their senority makes them automatically stronger and able to do it safely.
So, in addition to my training and my progressive experiment, I need skills, lots of skills, the best lvl 5 one. And I think it really goes up slowly despite my remap strategy and my implants.
So having the opportunity to inject SP purchased with ISK (virtual or real) to boost one or more skills, well I say ... NO!
NO and a big NO!
Surprised? Let me explain :
My game interest is to develop my skills as quickly as possible, while allowing me to play and train myself as efficiently as possible. I also have to manage my wallet to purchase my skills, my ships and their fitting. It is difficult for a new player who does not wish to join a corp where all will be given (I like to search and discover for myself). And for that, well ... I have to think, study, establish priorities, experiment, think again, make choices, be strategic.
I have to be smart. This is precisely what is fun (because a game is for fun, isnGÇÖt it ?).
I had to choose my remap, my implants. The remap is as much an advantage as a handicap, and I have to adjust my game accordingly.
It's really difficult at the beginning, and games options are limited, but I progress.
I wish to fly T2 or T3 ships, but I do not have the skills for this. Oh, I can already hear some of you: "What ? A year of game and heGÇÖs unable to fly T2 ships?". Yes, but there is a reason for that, a thoughtful strategy, a choice.
Boosting skills purchased with ISK will literally annihilate all my carefully thought-out strategy, and the game would lose part or even the most of his interest.
HOWEVER :
If I play Eve in... x time, having the possibility to redistribut my skill points would be interesting and would open new possibilities, without cheating on the acquisition of these strategics and precious skill points. I could spread from full "Minor / Reprocessing" to full "Explorer", or full "Gallente ships and armaments" to full "Minmatar ships and armaments", and so on. Yes, it's "Reskill", and under conditions (once a year or whatever), I am in.
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
426
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:39:48 -
[3584] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Don't like microtransactions? Simply don't do them. This is the sentence that ended EvE for me. CCP agree with it. Last bastion of MMO just fall down. Sandbox...
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:40:34 -
[3585] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.
as does creating a TSP. this system doesn't provide an instant win - some one still has to train the SP just like the bazaar system so it will still take time. But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time. Lets say: Your rich in RL, you purchase 100 Plex and sell it in game to purchase 200m SP character on the bazaar. The time and effort put into that character has always been around since it was created, you are rich enough to purchase a decent toon. Shame you dont know what to do with it. You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE. Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / -ú is not right in my eyes. which is exactly what you can do now, on the character bazzar. you're buying a big ol' lump of SP. "Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / -ú" - you're literally describing how the bazaar works. If it's exactly the same, then why do we need it? Do explain. In my opinion it's not the same thing. SP trading system more reliable and safer source of SP. Users of it less depending of chosies were made not by them but by sellers. So it's much better. |
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:43:47 -
[3586] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:you could like, read the devblog... which clearly states why.
If the answer is "easier access for new player base", then just stick a few ads in game pointing to the character bazaar in the forums. Problem solved. |
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:45:44 -
[3587] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:you could like, read the devblog... which clearly states why. If the answer is "easier access for new player base", then just stick a few ads in game pointing to the character bazaar in the forums. Problem solved.
had you read the devblog, you'd know that's not the answer. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:45:54 -
[3588] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:That is exactley the way im describing to you how TSP works grab a pile of insignifcant old players and harvest there resources for CCP to sell, what is the difference, apart from me bringing this whole topic to your level of understanding taking the compation / history / values of the game out of the equation. i pointed out the difference; ccp arbitrarily deleting characters. you seem to think that's perfectly acceptable. which it is, if yours is the first to go. I pay for mine every month, subbed on all .only over 12 months unsubbed need to go so you should have an advantage because you pay? isn't that the very thing you're crusading against?
What advantage, WTF are you on about im on about creating a skillpoint pool for ccp to sell to new characters, im afraid my suggestion would leave my characters over 8.5 years late to use.
You asked me why we shouldnt pull points from thin air so i gave you an alternative, old unsubbed accounts. Your the one harping on about the value of anyone being able to use skillpoints. Atleast im offering it to the ones who are said to need it most the new player.
|
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:47:59 -
[3589] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:That is exactley the way im describing to you how TSP works grab a pile of insignifcant old players and harvest there resources for CCP to sell, what is the difference, apart from me bringing this whole topic to your level of understanding taking the compation / history / values of the game out of the equation. i pointed out the difference; ccp arbitrarily deleting characters. you seem to think that's perfectly acceptable. which it is, if yours is the first to go. I pay for mine every month, subbed on all .only over 12 months unsubbed need to go so you should have an advantage because you pay? isn't that the very thing you're crusading against? What advantage, WTF are you on about im on about creating a skillpoint pool for ccp to sell to new characters, im afraid my suggestion would leave my characters over 8.5 years late to use. You asked me why we shouldnt pull points from thin air so i gave you an alternative, old unsubbed accounts. Your the one harping on about the value of anyone being able to use skillpoints. Atleast im offering it to the ones who are said to need it most the new player.
the advantage of not having your character arbitrarily deleted by CCP in order to create a skillpoint pool for people.
you're saying that paying should give you the advantage of not being deleted by CCP. i thought you were firmly against paying for an advantage? |
Soltys
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:48:44 -
[3590] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE.
History, values (?) are made by character. Not by selfgrinding XP bar being a byproduct of active subscription. Not menioning that with proper bazaar character history is largely nonexistent.
I repeat again, SP pool is not related in any way to loyalty, history, commitment or whatever other excuses people are finding.
It's like that summary on another blog:
"You'll destroy the feeling of accomplishment for training a new skill.
Yeah, congrats on paying your subscription there tiger. I think we can let that one go."
Quote:Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / -ú is not right in my eyes.
Noone is taking that autogrinding SP bar requiring 0 effort and a few dollars or plexes from those bazaar characters. You can go and buy them if you want. Or sell them.
Quote:compation / history / values of the game out of the equation.
Again, SP has nothing to do with.
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
|
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Luscius Uta
173
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:49:34 -
[3591] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Luscius Uta wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Luscius Uta wrote:tl;dr of this dev blog:
You'll be able to trade ISK for SP.
So nothing that you couldn't do on Character Bazaar before. Yet it somehow offends many of the bittervets, even people who I held in high regard, like Ripard Teg. Probably because conversion rates are basically useless for bittervets (I personally belong in >80M SP category as well but I shed no tears).
First thing, bittervets shouldn't be so greedy about their SP and could instead use this new feature to make new alts and quickly train them up.
Second thing,skill trading isn't going to turn EVE into a Pay2Win game...now, I wasn't around when PLEX was introduced, but I can bet on both my arms and legs that it caused a huge outrcy from people who did their best to convince everyone that PLEX is going to turn EVE into (another) Pay2Win, instant gratification game.
If there's one thing that I think it's bad for the future of EVE, that would be ever-rising PLEX prices. Why? Because they are driving new players away. When I started playing in 2011, PLEX was around 400 millions and grinding for enough ISK to PLEX your account was acceptable deal to much greater percentage of newer players than it is today. Of course, nobody ever had to grind for ISK, but "pay to play" MMOs are outdated and that concept isn't going to attract many new players.
So move along, nothing to see here. Incorrect. You were able to buy characters with higher sp. You were not able to buy sp for a char. kktnxbye. And why is the former acceptable, but the latter is not? Why would anyone in their right mind buy a new alt just to save few days or weeks from skill training? The fact that skill trading benefits low SP characters much more than vets is the main reason I don't have any problems with it. Anything that benefits newer players is good for EVE, especially with current PLEX prices. I wrote 4 WOT`s on the subject. Read everything and inform yourself before jumping in discussion if you want to be seen as proper interlocutor, worth time needed for posting explanations.
Would rather not browse through 170 pages just because there might be an answer to my question in a post of yours somewhere, kthxbye.
Drifters have arrived - The End is nigh!
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Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
221
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:52:18 -
[3592] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i, ccp terminus, and the devblog have answered this question. idiotic questions like this are why the thread is so long.
do read.
No, you haven't. We can be sure that you're not in this "for the good of the game" so again, why do YOU want this in the game?
|
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:54:57 -
[3593] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i, ccp terminus, and the devblog have answered this question. idiotic questions like this are why the thread is so long.
do read. No, you haven't. We can be sure that you're not in this "for the good of the game" so again, why do YOU want this in the game?
it already is - the character bazaar. why are you all so assblasted that ccp are making something we already have less convoluted? |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
221
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:58:27 -
[3594] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i, ccp terminus, and the devblog have answered this question. idiotic questions like this are why the thread is so long.
do read. No, you haven't. We can be sure that you're not in this "for the good of the game" so again, why do YOU want this in the game? it already is - the character bazaar. why are you all so assblasted that ccp are making something we already have less convoluted?
So you're, per usual, avoiding the question. DO explain to us why you put in all this effort and time into this thread, surely there must be a personal reason for it. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:58:44 -
[3595] - Quote
Quote:the advantage of not having your character arbitrarily deleted by CCP in order to create a skillpoint pool for people.you're saying that paying should give you the advantage of not being deleted by CCP. i thought you were firmly against paying for an advantage?
There is no advantage to anyone, there is nothing arbitrary in its selection. You have not played for 12 months, get sent an email to either activate or lose. There is no personal gain it it. It is nothing personal to anyone, its just freeing up resources to be recycled and taking some load of the client base to be used for new players.
what is wrong with it is what im saying, you have no vested interest in anything remotely connected with the values of the game. Your interest is personal gain. My way the new players benefit as much as CCP |
Horiz Rin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:58:48 -
[3596] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:[
You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE.
Thats the essence.
From the bazaar you get the good and the bad, and it's a trade off - you weigh up if the things you want against those you don't - and like most of the best parts of EVE, its a compromise that takes thinking about.
Getting rid of unused SP to trade in for cherry picked skills smacks of pandering to players immediate gratification - and with immediate gratification you lose both the time, and the emotional investment in the game, and with nothing invested, where's the attachment?
I'm a fairly new player, I already have skills I wish I hadn't trained - but training them meant I had time to learn, and time to anticipate and look forward to things I wanted to do - it kept me interested ! If I could pay to get what I wanted...... I'd probably have tried everything in a few months, not bothered to learn any of the games subtleties, and been gone by now.
|
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:02:09 -
[3597] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i, ccp terminus, and the devblog have answered this question. idiotic questions like this are why the thread is so long.
do read. No, you haven't. We can be sure that you're not in this "for the good of the game" so again, why do YOU want this in the game? it already is - the character bazaar. why are you all so assblasted that ccp are making something we already have less convoluted? So you're, per usual, avoiding the question. DO explain to us why you put in all this effort and time into this thread, surely there must be a personal reason for it.
i didn't avoid anything.
i just told you it's already in the game. ccp aren't adding anything we don't already have.
my answer not fitting your narrative isn't me avoiding questions. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
218
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:02:52 -
[3598] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Zappity wrote:It would not be called a 'sacred cow' if it were uncontroversial. But this is one that needs to be turned into a steak. Judging from the feedback in this thread it would seem that your stance on the subject is not shared by the majority of people in this thread and would not be too healthy for subscription numbers. Yes you could just write this all off as idle threats, but if you are in CCPs position would you want to really risk it and be the one who bought a 12 year old game to its knees just so you can implement this? Everyone realised that jump fatigue and the sov changes needed to be done, and so despite the negative reactions players stuck with CCP as we knew we could not keep the status quo. This on the other hand is much more dangerous as it all to close to Incarna. I actually think a lot of players have already let micro transactions slip in through the back door in the form of ship SKINs, a feature that nearly everyone had wanted, but somehow CCP cleverly managed to tie it to microtransactions without much of a fuss from the players. It was explained away at the time that it is fine as ship skins are cosmetic items; this idea on the other hand is going to be different as SPs are far from cosmetic. Rubbish. People won't quit over this. Why would they? Of course some people will definitely quit over this. The only question would is how many.
You seem to be ignorant or in denial of the opinion in this thread, CCP don't have that same luxury though.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
221
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:09:52 -
[3599] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i, ccp terminus, and the devblog have answered this question. idiotic questions like this are why the thread is so long.
do read. No, you haven't. We can be sure that you're not in this "for the good of the game" so again, why do YOU want this in the game? it already is - the character bazaar. why are you all so assblasted that ccp are making something we already have less convoluted? So you're, per usual, avoiding the question. DO explain to us why you put in all this effort and time into this thread, surely there must be a personal reason for it. i didn't avoid anything. i just told you it's already in the game. ccp aren't adding anything we don't already have. my answer not fitting your narrative isn't me avoiding questions.
So you persist in not answering a very basic, and quite important, question. Which is all a bit weird given all the effort and spamming you do in this thread.
|
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
40
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:14:16 -
[3600] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: it already is - the character bazaar. why are you all so assblasted that ccp are making something we already have less convoluted?
There is a difference...
Although characters can change hands, and a PERSON can gain a lot of SP in a short time by paying ISK, CHARACTERS still gain SP using the existing mechanics which are speed limited.
This change would allow CHARACTERS to gain a lot of SP in a short time, bypassing the existing, speed limited mechanic.
If you threw enough money at it you could create any custom, perfect character in a short time, without regard to what may or may not be available on the character bazaar, and without interference from the vagaries of supply and demand, or the necessity to tolerate stupid names or poor reputation / history.
|
|
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:15:25 -
[3601] - Quote
Dave Stark,
Hyperthetical,
Mark: has been playing EVE for 10 years, he has 200MSP, contributed alot to EVE community, CCP and developed a presence in the EVE universe.
Dave: Has seen an advert, likes the look of EVE, decided to play EVE and realises he's starting way off from the pack. Dave desides f*ck it, I'll purchase 200M SP and gain the significat bonuses that come with it.
EvE is a sandbox, players run the lore of the universe and create history. EvE is unique, EvE has values, standards, it takes time to develop your self and promote yourself in this already small community / universe.
1.) Mark has seen EVE grow, gained a substanial wealth. Taking his past history, contribution, away from him because SP is now Pay 2 Win for Dave.
2.) Dave does not give a sh*t, he can fly his pimped out Vargur after 1 day and does not care about Marks history or the lore of EVE, he just wants to fly and kill.
Yes, Dave could achieve this on the Character Bazaar but he also has to live with the fact that the new character he is purchasing has time value and history. All part of what make EVE the greatest sandbox created. |
Jared Khanar
36
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:16:16 -
[3602] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote: Of course some people will definitely quit over this. The only question would is how many. You seem to be ignorant or in denial of the opinion in this thread, CCP don't have that same luxury though.
Infact CCP has the luxury to do so - still waiting on your response CCP Terminus ^^
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6110431#post6110431 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6110534#post6110534
3 accs running out and only returning if this mess gets stopped - maybe others unsubbing, like to share here, too Ofcourse it-¦s not a bad thing and i have no hatred in this. if ccp likes to follow this road further (as they did in the past) - the one-¦s liking this will stay and pay - the one-¦s don-¦t will leave. Others waiting for features like this may come and leave again. (someone who has observed the behaviour of f2p communities may know what i mean, although the effects might not be that strong in eve, as its features, supporting this, are a bit more hidden under the ground than elsewhere) It-¦s simply a shift in the community (or a something one can call a recreation - which fits well as eve gets recreated and reconfigured, too). Nothing to be sad about. |
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:16:43 -
[3603] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:So you persist in not answering a very basic, and quite important, question. Which is all a bit weird given all the effort and spamming you do in this thread.
i've answered it every time you've asked it. you just seem to be illiterate. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
118
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:18:38 -
[3604] - Quote
Luscius Uta wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Luscius Uta wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Luscius Uta wrote:tl;dr of this dev blog:
You'll be able to trade ISK for SP.
So nothing that you couldn't do on Character Bazaar before. Yet it somehow offends many of the bittervets, even people who I held in high regard, like Ripard Teg. Probably because conversion rates are basically useless for bittervets (I personally belong in >80M SP category as well but I shed no tears).
First thing, bittervets shouldn't be so greedy about their SP and could instead use this new feature to make new alts and quickly train them up.
Second thing,skill trading isn't going to turn EVE into a Pay2Win game...now, I wasn't around when PLEX was introduced, but I can bet on both my arms and legs that it caused a huge outrcy from people who did their best to convince everyone that PLEX is going to turn EVE into (another) Pay2Win, instant gratification game.
If there's one thing that I think it's bad for the future of EVE, that would be ever-rising PLEX prices. Why? Because they are driving new players away. When I started playing in 2011, PLEX was around 400 millions and grinding for enough ISK to PLEX your account was acceptable deal to much greater percentage of newer players than it is today. Of course, nobody ever had to grind for ISK, but "pay to play" MMOs are outdated and that concept isn't going to attract many new players.
So move along, nothing to see here. Incorrect. You were able to buy characters with higher sp. You were not able to buy sp for a char. kktnxbye. And why is the former acceptable, but the latter is not? Why would anyone in their right mind buy a new alt just to save few days or weeks from skill training? The fact that skill trading benefits low SP characters much more than vets is the main reason I don't have any problems with it. Anything that benefits newer players is good for EVE, especially with current PLEX prices. I wrote 4 WOT`s on the subject. Read everything and inform yourself before jumping in discussion if you want to be seen as proper interlocutor, worth time needed for posting explanations. Would rather not browse through 170 pages just because there might be an answer to my question in a post of yours somewhere, kthxbye.
Then do not be surprised if no one cares to provide you one. kktnxbye.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:20:01 -
[3605] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Dave Stark,
Hyperthetical,
Mark: has been playing EVE for 10 years, he has 200MSP, contributed alot to EVE community, CCP and developed a presence in the EVE universe.
Dave: Has seen an advert, likes the look of EVE, decided to play EVE and realises he's starting way off from the pack. Dave desides f*ck it, I'll purchase 200M SP and gain the significat bonuses that come with it.
EvE is a sandbox, players run the lore of the universe and create history. EvE is unique, EvE has values, standards, it takes time to develop your self and promote yourself in this already small community / universe.
1.) Mark has seen EVE grow, gained a substanial wealth. Taking his past history, contribution, away from him because SP is now Pay 2 Win for Dave.
2.) Dave does not give a sh*t, he can fly his pimped out Vargur after 1 day and does not care about Marks history or the lore of EVE, he just wants to fly and kill.
Yes, Dave could achieve this on the Character Bazaar but he also has to live with the fact that the new character he is purchasing has time value and history. All part of what make EVE the greatest sandbox created.
Making SP so ready available reduces the Values and standards of what makes EVE a sandbox and Pay 2 Win
a value and history nobody gives a **** about, because the character has changed hands.
nobody cares that xxawox420mcblueshooterxx is a known corp theif - because that character is no longer played by a corp thief.
if chribba were to sell his character tomorrow, whatever character he were to use afterwards would still be refered to as "chribba" since we're talking about a PERSON not a character. pretending reputation is tied to the character not the person is laughable. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
224
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:20:25 -
[3606] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:So you persist in not answering a very basic, and quite important, question. Which is all a bit weird given all the effort and spamming you do in this thread.
i've answered it every time you've asked it. you just seem to be illiterate.
No, you haven't.
If it's "the same" as you put it (which it is not, obviously) then you wouldn't care whether or not it would be implemented and while you might have an opinion for or against it wouldn't incite your hilarious **** spamming spin doctoring. The very FACT that you sperg all over this thread proves there's a vested interest somewhere which goes beyond "it's the same so meh who cares".
So again: why do you clown all over this thread, what is your personal motivation? Given how outspoken you are on the subject I'm sure you can explain it to us. Heck you might even convince us! |
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:21:21 -
[3607] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:you wouldn't care whether or not it would be implemented
correct. i have stated this several times. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
118
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:22:40 -
[3608] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote: No, you haven't. We can be sure that you're not in this "for the good of the game" so again, why do YOU want this in the game?
it already is - the character bazaar. why are you all so assblasted that ccp are making something we already have less convoluted? So you're, per usual, avoiding the question. DO explain to us why you put in all this effort and time into this thread, surely there must be a personal reason for it. i didn't avoid anything. i just told you it's already in the game. ccp aren't adding anything we don't already have. my answer not fitting your narrative isn't me avoiding questions. So you persist in not answering a very basic, and quite important, question. Which is all a bit weird given all the effort and spamming you do in this thread.
He is trolling, in nice manner. Basically it seems he cannot be banned as mods can advocate that to his not understanding of question, or stupidity or whatever but majority of his posts in this topic is just making noise, "challenging" people who are against this, stating that he provided counter arguments without a single one actually being provided, pulling things out of context, twisting out,repeating already easily flawed statements like they are correct etc.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
224
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:23:58 -
[3609] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:you wouldn't care whether or not it would be implemented correct. i have stated this several times.
Righ right, so you don't care. Then why are you sperging in this thread, F5ing it like you have Tourette's? |
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:25:29 -
[3610] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:you wouldn't care whether or not it would be implemented correct. i have stated this several times. Righ right, so you don't care. Then why are you sperging in this thread, F5ing it like you have Tourette's?
also said that before, but for your benefit since you seem to be unable to read; cos i wanted to see what all the negativity was about since it only seems to exist here in eve-o.
y'all seem very upset CCP are trying to make things we already have less hassle. usually when they do this we applaud and cheer but apparently this time because it's rise/terminus/whatever team they're on rather than karkur/punkturis/whatever teams they're on you're all throwing your rattle out of the pram. |
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
226
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:30:06 -
[3611] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:you wouldn't care whether or not it would be implemented correct. i have stated this several times. Righ right, so you don't care. Then why are you sperging in this thread, F5ing it like you have Tourette's? also said that before, but for your benefit since you seem to be unable to read; cos i wanted to see what all the negativity was about since it only seems to exist here in eve-o. y'all seem very upset CCP are trying to make things we already have less hassle. usually when they do this we applaud and cheer but apparently this time because it's rise/terminus/whatever team they're on rather than karkur/punkturis/whatever teams they're on you're all throwing your rattle out of the pram.
Yeah right, so you're posting like an idiot, feverishly clinging to a single view point trying to beat others into submission by spam posting.... JUST to see what the problem is.
So what you're saying is "I'm a troll and everything I post isn't actually true, I just construct it just to get a reaction. Please ignore everything I said on the subject". It's either that or it's "I have a personal interest in these changes but if I'd state as such then I'd lose credibility".
Which of the two is it? |
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:30:50 -
[3612] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Dave Stark,
Hyperthetical,
Mark: has been playing EVE for 10 years, he has 200MSP, contributed alot to EVE community, CCP and developed a presence in the EVE universe.
Dave: Has seen an advert, likes the look of EVE, decided to play EVE and realises he's starting way off from the pack. Dave desides f*ck it, I'll purchase 200M SP and gain the significat bonuses that come with it.
EvE is a sandbox, players run the lore of the universe and create history. EvE is unique, EvE has values, standards, it takes time to develop your self and promote yourself in this already small community / universe.
1.) Mark has seen EVE grow, gained a substanial wealth. Taking his past history, contribution, away from him because SP is now Pay 2 Win for Dave.
2.) Dave does not give a sh*t, he can fly his pimped out Vargur after 1 day and does not care about Marks history or the lore of EVE, he just wants to fly and kill.
Yes, Dave could achieve this on the Character Bazaar but he also has to live with the fact that the new character he is purchasing has time value and history. All part of what make EVE the greatest sandbox created.
Making SP so ready available reduces the Values and standards of what makes EVE a sandbox and Pay 2 Win a value and history nobody gives a **** about, because the character has changed hands. nobody cares that xxawox420mcblueshooterxx is a known corp theif - because that character is no longer played by a corp thief. if chribba were to sell his character tomorrow, whatever character he were to use afterwards would still be refered to as "chribba" since we're talking about a PERSON not a character. pretending reputation is tied to the character not the person is laughable.
You are narrow minded, the thread is about mark, not about the sale of an account. Where is marks respect as a older player? The time he has contributed has gone out of the window, thanks to widely available SP to create w/e you want.
|
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:32:34 -
[3613] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:you wouldn't care whether or not it would be implemented correct. i have stated this several times. Righ right, so you don't care. Then why are you sperging in this thread, F5ing it like you have Tourette's? also said that before, but for your benefit since you seem to be unable to read; cos i wanted to see what all the negativity was about since it only seems to exist here in eve-o. y'all seem very upset CCP are trying to make things we already have less hassle. usually when they do this we applaud and cheer but apparently this time because it's rise/terminus/whatever team they're on rather than karkur/punkturis/whatever teams they're on you're all throwing your rattle out of the pram. Yea, we all believe you. Please say that out loud. Then realize how it smells on bs after having you 3+ days here, posting like mad without much contribution. Out of simple curiosity (as you just wanted to see what`s all the fuss) you are wasting hours and hours of your time, yea right :D Well you have seen whats the fuss about, why are you still trolling? :D You are caring a lot and you are pushing a lot in support of this. Why? I do not know since you did not come up with real arguments to back it up.
wasting my time, i'm getting paid. it's a workday here in iceland. i'm not trolling - you keep asking me the same dumb questions over and over, it's rude not to answer some one when they ask you something.
not actively saying it's crap doesn't mean i'm supporting it. i honestly couldn't care less if it's added or not. apparently nobody has put forward a real argument depending on who you ask - not that we need an argument. we already have this idea anyway that's why i'm so indifferent to it. even if you "win" the thing you so vehemently abhor will exist. |
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:33:56 -
[3614] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Dave Stark,
Hyperthetical,
Mark: has been playing EVE for 10 years, he has 200MSP, contributed alot to EVE community, CCP and developed a presence in the EVE universe.
Dave: Has seen an advert, likes the look of EVE, decided to play EVE and realises he's starting way off from the pack. Dave desides f*ck it, I'll purchase 200M SP and gain the significat bonuses that come with it.
EvE is a sandbox, players run the lore of the universe and create history. EvE is unique, EvE has values, standards, it takes time to develop your self and promote yourself in this already small community / universe.
1.) Mark has seen EVE grow, gained a substanial wealth. Taking his past history, contribution, away from him because SP is now Pay 2 Win for Dave.
2.) Dave does not give a sh*t, he can fly his pimped out Vargur after 1 day and does not care about Marks history or the lore of EVE, he just wants to fly and kill.
Yes, Dave could achieve this on the Character Bazaar but he also has to live with the fact that the new character he is purchasing has time value and history. All part of what make EVE the greatest sandbox created.
Making SP so ready available reduces the Values and standards of what makes EVE a sandbox and Pay 2 Win a value and history nobody gives a **** about, because the character has changed hands. nobody cares that xxawox420mcblueshooterxx is a known corp theif - because that character is no longer played by a corp thief. if chribba were to sell his character tomorrow, whatever character he were to use afterwards would still be refered to as "chribba" since we're talking about a PERSON not a character. pretending reputation is tied to the character not the person is laughable. You are narrow minded, the thread is about mark, not about the sale of an account. Where is marks respect as a older player? The time he has contributed has gone out of the window, thanks to widely available SP to create w/e you want.
no, it hasn't. if chribba were to sell his account tomorrow would we all forget all the stuff he has done? clearly we wouldn't.
if we were to all get 200m sp tomorrow, would we all forget about the stuff he as done? clearly we wouldn't.
if you do interesting **** - people will remember it. it has absolutely nothing to do with your sp number. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
219
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:34:49 -
[3615] - Quote
Even Tippia tried and could not stop him. (but made him look like a fool though)
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:37:20 -
[3616] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote: This devalues SP and Time, therefore devalues the vet's and players that have supported the game since day 1. It goes against most values and standards of the player base.
It can't devalues something that not for sale.
Syn'Drakkahr wrote: But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time.
To create SP somebody need to wait training time and then sell it.
Syn'Drakkahr wrote: At this current stage, the update means people will simply set up SP character farms and sell the SP on the market for gains.
Firstly you need purshe for PLEX and extractors to be able to farm SP. |
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:39:41 -
[3617] - Quote
Quote:no, it hasn't. if chribba were to sell his account tomorrow would we all forget all the stuff he has done? clearly we wouldn't.
if we were to all get 200m sp tomorrow, would we all forget about the stuff he as done? clearly we wouldn't.
if you do interesting **** - people will remember it. it has absolutely nothing to do with your sp number.
If we all got 200M SP there would be nothing UNIQUE about EVE and eventually the majority of players would have MAXED skills. Yes EVENTUALLY the players that stick to eve would get maxed skilled. But it takes TIME, you should not be able to buy TIME at such a ready available option.
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
226
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:40:32 -
[3618] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Even Tippia tried and could not stop him. (but made him look like a fool though)
It doesn't take Tippia to make him look like a fool and a shill, he's perfectly capable of doing that himself. It's just very entertaining to see him try so hard to avoid answering actual questions while at the same time "not understanding" the problem. The more he posts the more hilarious it is and the harder he tries the more people realise that he is in fact a shill. He'd probably do better if he'd go quiet for a bit and start posting on another char using a slightly different angle.
This way is more fun though. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:41:02 -
[3619] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Quote:the advantage of not having your character arbitrarily deleted by CCP in order to create a skillpoint pool for people.you're saying that paying should give you the advantage of not being deleted by CCP. i thought you were firmly against paying for an advantage? There is no advantage to anyone, there is nothing arbitrary in its selection. You have not played for 12 months, get sent an email to either activate or lose. There is no personal gain it it. It is nothing personal to anyone, its just freeing up resources to be recycled and taking some load of the client base to be used for new players. what is wrong with it is what im saying, you have no vested interest in anything remotely connected with the values of the game. Your interest is personal gain. My way the new players benefit as much as CCP
Seeing as you never got round to replying to the above another thing strikes me as strange now, why you look at a bizaar toon as just a skillpoint sack but you take great offence at recycling old with a minimum unsubbed peroid of 12 months frozen toons. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
219
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:44:10 -
[3620] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Even Tippia tried and could not stop him. (but made him look like a fool though) It doesn't take Tippia to make him look like a fool and a shill, he's perfectly capable of doing that himself. It's just very entertaining to see him try so hard to avoid answering actual questions while at the same time "not understanding" the problem. The more he posts the more hilarious it is and the harder he tries the more people realise that he is in fact a shill. He'd probably do better if he'd go quiet for a bit and start posting on another char using a slightly different angle. This way is more fun though. True. What I am saying though is if Tippia couldn't shut him up then no one can. So basically just ignore him, or use it for entertainment if you wish.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:53:58 -
[3621] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote: This devalues SP and Time, therefore devalues the vet's and players that have supported the game since day 1. It goes against most values and standards of the player base.
It can't devalues something that not for sale. Syn'Drakkahr wrote: But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time.
To create SP somebody need to wait training time and then sell it. Syn'Drakkahr wrote: At this current stage, the update means people will simply set up SP character farms and sell the SP on the market for gains.
Firstly you need purche for PLEX and extractors to be able to farm SP.
Quotes:
1.) You devalue the time players have spent in EVE online by making TIME & SP so ready available.
2.) Enough farms & SP sales will make everyone hit MAX skills in a SHORT amount of TIME! = No one is UNIQUE!
3.) WELL DONE!
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Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:54:22 -
[3622] - Quote
so, since you're all slinging them ol' personal attacks you've actually ran out of legitimate points. |
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:55:18 -
[3623] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Quote:no, it hasn't. if chribba were to sell his account tomorrow would we all forget all the stuff he has done? clearly we wouldn't.
if we were to all get 200m sp tomorrow, would we all forget about the stuff he as done? clearly we wouldn't.
if you do interesting **** - people will remember it. it has absolutely nothing to do with your sp number. If we all got 200M SP there would be nothing UNIQUE about EVE and eventually the majority of players would have MAXED skills. Yes EVENTUALLY the players that stick to eve would get maxed skilled. But it takes TIME, you should not be able to buy TIME at such a ready available option.
and it will still take time in the new system. sp isn't coming out of thin air. |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
58
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:00:09 -
[3624] - Quote
darkchild's corpse wrote:i wonder how much "don't implement this" feedback is needed to make ccp stop thinking about implementing it. maybe someone should pay a few hundret ppl to give negative feedback in here :D
I'd guess a few thousand given that people only tend to be vocal when they hate something, not when they like something or don't care either way For every one person in this thread claiming that this feature will be the end of EvE there is quite likely a few people quietly sitting back happy it's going to happen, and a few hundred who don't care enough either way to post about it.
Maybe for controversial features CCP should have an enforced vote happen for each account at next login. For once we'd actually have a reasonable overview of opinion that includes the silent majority. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
228
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:02:32 -
[3625] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:darkchild's corpse wrote:i wonder how much "don't implement this" feedback is needed to make ccp stop thinking about implementing it. maybe someone should pay a few hundret ppl to give negative feedback in here :D I'd guess a few thousand given that people only tend to be vocal when they hate something, not when they like something or don't care either way For every one person in this thread claiming that this feature will be the end of EvE there is quite likely a few people quietly sitting back happy it's going to happen, and a few hundred who don't care enough either way to post about it. Maybe for controversial features CCP should have an enforced vote happen for each account at next login. For once we'd actually have a reasonable overview of opinion that includes the silent majority.
They already HAVE some sort of vote system in place. It's called the CSM and it seems that all but one of them were against it. |
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:02:58 -
[3626] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Which you did not.
i did, every time. |
darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
73
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:03:53 -
[3627] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:darkchild's corpse wrote:i wonder how much "don't implement this" feedback is needed to make ccp stop thinking about implementing it. maybe someone should pay a few hundret ppl to give negative feedback in here :D I'd guess a few thousand given that people only tend to be vocal when they hate something, not when they like something or don't care either way For every one person in this thread claiming that this feature will be the end of EvE there is quite likely a few people quietly sitting back happy it's going to happen, and a few hundred who don't care enough either way to post about it. Maybe for controversial features CCP should have an enforced vote happen for each account at next login. For once we'd actually have a reasonable overview of opinion that includes the silent majority.
i know at least 4 ppl who don't like this idea but don't post because they never post. so i guess the part of the community who tends to post in forums in general gives feedback. not only the ones who dislike the idea.
Kinda suits the SP trading discussion (lyrics in description)
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Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:04:04 -
[3628] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:so, since you're all slinging them ol' personal attacks you've actually ran out of legitimate points. WHAT? WE CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER HOW MUCH OF A SHILL YOU ARE! adequately proving my point. Feel free to explain to us what the point is of all your posting in this thread, from your personal pov.
as i explained before, many times, to find out why you're all so assblasted about ccp improving the way SP is traded. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
119
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:05:57 -
[3629] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Which you did not. i did, every time.
You did reply every single time. Unfortunately by trolling, just making noise ;)
Which is quite different from providing counter arguments and challenging original arguments.
Even now, you have taken just one part of my post and avoided providing meaningful explanation for the rest :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
229
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:06:13 -
[3630] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:so, since you're all slinging them ol' personal attacks you've actually ran out of legitimate points. WHAT? WE CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER HOW MUCH OF A SHILL YOU ARE! adequately proving my point. Feel free to explain to us what the point is of all your posting in this thread, from your personal pov. as i explained before, many times, to find out why you're all so assblasted about ccp improving the way SP is traded.
Point us to it, I can't find any actual statement of yours where you explain your true reasoning.
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
428
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:06:26 -
[3631] - Quote
darkchild's corpse wrote:i wonder how much "don't implement this" feedback is needed to make ccp stop thinking about implementing it. maybe someone should pay a few hundret ppl to give negative feedback in here :D Try reddit "Shut up and take my money!" thread. They are thrilled to pay for this. So it's not "if", more "when". How much time for golden ammo? ( for new players ofc because they can't compete with vets )
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:07:08 -
[3632] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Point us to it, I can't find any actual statement of yours where you explain your true reasoning.
then i suggest you follow my prior suggestion; learn to read.
there's no use pointing you to something to read when you've failed to read it several times before. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
119
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:08:03 -
[3633] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:so, since you're all slinging them ol' personal attacks you've actually ran out of legitimate points. WHAT? WE CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER HOW MUCH OF A SHILL YOU ARE! adequately proving my point. Feel free to explain to us what the point is of all your posting in this thread, from your personal pov. as i explained before, many times, to find out why you're all so assblasted about ccp improving the way SP is traded.
You have seen it over 100 pages ago. Why keep pushing? :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
73
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:08:43 -
[3634] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:darkchild's corpse wrote:i wonder how much "don't implement this" feedback is needed to make ccp stop thinking about implementing it. maybe someone should pay a few hundret ppl to give negative feedback in here :D Try reddit "Shut up and take my money!" thread. They are thrilled to pay for this. So it's not "if", more "when". How much time for golden ammo? ( for new players ofc because they can't compete with vets )
i should invest in reddit users :D best mercs ever \o/
Kinda suits the SP trading discussion (lyrics in description)
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Luscius Uta
174
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:08:59 -
[3635] - Quote
I just had an amazing idea:
Instead of making skill trading work like proposed in the devblog, CCP should simply let us convert PLEX into unallocated skill points (I think around 1.5 million SP/PLEX would be a good conversion rate). It really makes no sense that we couldn't do that alredy, since we can convert PLEX to gametime and gametime equals SP, so why is PLEX not equal SP? Of course, some people will try to convince me it is not the same since normally you have to wait to train up those SP (or someone else had to, if you bought a toon from them), but why not give us a way to skip all that boring slow training? Do people really want to train a bunch of essential skills all over everytime they make a new alt? Am I being sarcastic? I haven't decided yet.
Drifters have arrived - The End is nigh!
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darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
73
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:10:10 -
[3636] - Quote
Luscius Uta wrote:I just had an amazing idea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRKz82v5JQY
Kinda suits the SP trading discussion (lyrics in description)
|
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:10:19 -
[3637] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:You have seen it over 100 pages ago. Why keep pushing? :D
because you're not the only person in this thread.
i've rather enjoyed my exchanges with gully alex foyle about potential pricing. that has easily been the most interesting part of the thread, even though it wasn't the reason i came here. there's still many things to be discussed about the idea. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4050
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:11:14 -
[3638] - Quote
It's me the only tired of seeing how the thread has devolved into 50% of Dave Stark vs the Universe?
What a troll.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
428
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:13:32 -
[3639] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: It's me the only tired of seeing how the thread has devolved into 50% of Dave Stark vs the Universe?
What a troll. Evil
Rest of them don't have active subs so they spamming on reddit.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
229
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:14:16 -
[3640] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Point us to it, I can't find any actual statement of yours where you explain your true reasoning.
then i suggest you follow my prior suggestion; learn to read. there's no use pointing you to something to read when you've failed to read it several times before.
Aren't you interested in trying to convince others of your viewpoint? If you'd just explain in detail why you sperg post as you do then there might be some folks willing to see your side of the story and then you'd be winning.
No? Figured as much. |
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
119
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:15:44 -
[3641] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:You have seen it over 100 pages ago. Why keep pushing? :D because you're not the only person in this thread. i've rather enjoyed my exchanges with gully alex foyle about potential pricing. that has easily been the most interesting part of the thread, even though it wasn't the reason i came here. there's still many things to be discussed about the idea.
I did not refer to mine posts as being only here. The most of concerns were written over 100 pages ago. So you saw what are the people being concerned about and your curiosity should be fulfilled. Yet you choose to keep spamming hundreds of post in support of this idea after it. Logical fallacies in your statements are amusing.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:17:00 -
[3642] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Point us to it, I can't find any actual statement of yours where you explain your true reasoning.
then i suggest you follow my prior suggestion; learn to read. there's no use pointing you to something to read when you've failed to read it several times before. Aren't you interested in trying to convince others of your viewpoint? If you'd just explain in detail why you sperg post as you do then there might be some folks willing to see your side of the story and then you'd be winning. No? Figured as much.
my viewpoint of completely not caring whether this idea is added or not? if i don't really care one way or another. what benefit is there of "converting" people?
why do i post as much as i do? because i can. my side of the story is easy to see. we already have this, so if they don't add it there's no issue. if they do add it then what we have is less convoluted and awkward to use. there's nothing to be lost here. |
Jared Khanar
38
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:19:52 -
[3643] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: It's me the only tired of seeing how the thread has devolved into 50% of Dave Stark vs the Universe?
What a troll. Evil
Rest of them don't have active subs so they spamming on reddit.
there are also a lot of voices on reddit AGAINST this - telling people here reddit folks are clearly for this feature is simply not true |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
231
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:20:09 -
[3644] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Point us to it, I can't find any actual statement of yours where you explain your true reasoning.
then i suggest you follow my prior suggestion; learn to read. there's no use pointing you to something to read when you've failed to read it several times before. Aren't you interested in trying to convince others of your viewpoint? If you'd just explain in detail why you sperg post as you do then there might be some folks willing to see your side of the story and then you'd be winning. No? Figured as much. my viewpoint of completely not caring whether this idea is added or not? if i don't really care one way or another. what benefit is there of "converting" people? why do i post as much as i do? because i can. my side of the story is easy to see. we already have this, so if they don't add it there's no issue. if they do add it then what we have is less convoluted and awkward to use. there's nothing to be lost here.
Right right. so you "don't care" and that is why you post so much, how stupid of us that we don't accept that logic.
Try harder, atm you're not convincing anyone. |
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:20:55 -
[3645] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Point us to it, I can't find any actual statement of yours where you explain your true reasoning.
then i suggest you follow my prior suggestion; learn to read. there's no use pointing you to something to read when you've failed to read it several times before. Aren't you interested in trying to convince others of your viewpoint? If you'd just explain in detail why you sperg post as you do then there might be some folks willing to see your side of the story and then you'd be winning. No? Figured as much. my viewpoint of completely not caring whether this idea is added or not? if i don't really care one way or another. what benefit is there of "converting" people? why do i post as much as i do? because i can. my side of the story is easy to see. we already have this, so if they don't add it there's no issue. if they do add it then what we have is less convoluted and awkward to use. there's nothing to be lost here. Right right. so you "don't care" and that is why you post so much, how stupid of us that we don't accept that logic. Try harder, atm you're not convincing anyone.
"i reject your answer for the 30th time, because it still doesn't fit my narrative". well, ok then. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
119
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:22:12 -
[3646] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote: then i suggest you follow my prior suggestion; learn to read.
there's no use pointing you to something to read when you've failed to read it several times before.
Aren't you interested in trying to convince others of your viewpoint? If you'd just explain in detail why you sperg post as you do then there might be some folks willing to see your side of the story and then you'd be winning. No? Figured as much. my viewpoint of completely not caring whether this idea is added or not? if i don't really care one way or another. what benefit is there of "converting" people? why do i post as much as i do? because i can. my side of the story is easy to see. we already have this, so if they don't add it there's no issue. if they do add it then what we have is less convoluted and awkward to use. there's nothing to be lost here. Right right. so you "don't care" and that is why you post so much, how stupid of us that we don't accept that logic. Try harder, atm you're not convincing anyone. "i reject your answer for the 30th time, because it still doesn't fit my narrative". well, ok then.
Or because it is so shallow and laughable that not a single person here accepts it as a meaningful answer?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
153
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:22:25 -
[3647] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote: Think about it, all those in-active accounts. Plenty of SP. Enough to cover ALOT of active accounts.
Do you even play EVE? Why are you even here? is their no passion? Eve is UNIQUE! lets keep it that way.
Here is my prediction: Skill extraction goes live> People buy SP> Max skills x 500-1000 accounts> Won EVE. Bored, move on. Rinse + repeat
I honestly, don't think this will be the case.
Let us say people do max out their skills within the first few months this has been implemented (not that I ever think people would do that). People would still continue to do whatever they are doing, just with better skills. I have almost perfect frigate skills, yet I still enjoy frigate PvP. It has not stopped me from playing EvE.
This change is good, because it makes the game less of a Skill Queue Online, and more a game where interacting with players matters. People will have the option to more rapidly get into whatever they wish to do. More players getting through the initial skill barriers, means more people in space doing stuff.
That being said, there is the risk of having new players perceive this as a money grab (similar to mobile games). But I think, if CCP markets the game correctly, they would be able to explain to possible new players, that SP is not what defines your character. It is just a mechanic used to put some barrier of entry to some activities. Instead, it is what you do with your time in space that matters.
Also, CCP really needs to fix the tutorials. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
186
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:23:32 -
[3648] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Zappity wrote:It would not be called a 'sacred cow' if it were uncontroversial. But this is one that needs to be turned into a steak. Judging from the feedback in this thread it would seem that your stance on the subject is not shared by the majority of people in this thread and would not be too healthy for subscription numbers. Yes you could just write this all off as idle threats, but if you are in CCPs position would you want to really risk it and be the one who bought a 12 year old game to its knees just so you can implement this? Everyone realised that jump fatigue and the sov changes needed to be done, and so despite the negative reactions players stuck with CCP as we knew we could not keep the status quo. This on the other hand is much more dangerous as it all to close to Incarna. I actually think a lot of players have already let micro transactions slip in through the back door in the form of ship SKINs, a feature that nearly everyone had wanted, but somehow CCP cleverly managed to tie it to microtransactions without much of a fuss from the players. It was explained away at the time that it is fine as ship skins are cosmetic items; this idea on the other hand is going to be different as SPs are far from cosmetic. Rubbish. People won't quit over this. Why would they? It doesn't materially affect your game play if you choose not to participate. I And the feedback on reddit was very different to here, indicating that there is a possibile significant upside. Don't like microtransactions? Simply don't do them. Buy from the market instead. If this was a "soul-bound" proposal I would be dead against it. But it isn't so I have no problem with it.
You failed as a psychic. I'll be one of the first to run away from this horrid game if this abomination is unleashed into Eve.
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Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:23:45 -
[3649] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Or because it is so shallow and laughable that not a single person here accepts it as a meaningful answer?
that's the wonderful thing about facts; they're true whether you believe them or not. |
Sgt Ocker
Military Bustards
727
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:24:47 -
[3650] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Point us to it, I can't find any actual statement of yours where you explain your true reasoning.
then i suggest you follow my prior suggestion; learn to read. there's no use pointing you to something to read when you've failed to read it several times before. Aren't you interested in trying to convince others of your viewpoint? If you'd just explain in detail why you sperg post as you do then there might be some folks willing to see your side of the story and then you'd be winning. No? Figured as much. my viewpoint of completely not caring whether this idea is added or not? if i don't really care one way or another. what benefit is there of "converting" people? why do i post as much as i do? because i can. my side of the story is easy to see. we already have this, so if they don't add it there's no issue. if they do add it then what we have is less convoluted and awkward to use. there's nothing to be lost here. I hope you aren't a Dev because if you can't see a difference between the character bazaar (selling/buying predefined skill packages) and selling unallocated SP. CCP is in a lot of trouble and could be facing a very bleak future.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
121
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:29:02 -
[3651] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Or because it is so shallow and laughable that not a single person here accepts it as a meaningful answer? that's the wonderful thing about facts; they're true whether you believe them or not.
Pity they are not facts. They are just your statements, facts are something different
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:29:02 -
[3652] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:I hope you aren't a Dev because if you can't see a difference between the character bazaar (selling/buying predefined skill packages) and selling unallocated SP. CCP is in a lot of trouble and could be facing a very bleak future.
there's a quick way to check if i'm a dev or not.
devs have a blue tag that says they're a dev on their portrait. now, move your eyes to the left side of the screen. do i have a blue tag? |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
58
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:30:18 -
[3653] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Zappity wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Zappity wrote:It would not be called a 'sacred cow' if it were uncontroversial. But this is one that needs to be turned into a steak. Judging from the feedback in this thread it would seem that your stance on the subject is not shared by the majority of people in this thread and would not be too healthy for subscription numbers. Yes you could just write this all off as idle threats, but if you are in CCPs position would you want to really risk it and be the one who bought a 12 year old game to its knees just so you can implement this? Everyone realised that jump fatigue and the sov changes needed to be done, and so despite the negative reactions players stuck with CCP as we knew we could not keep the status quo. This on the other hand is much more dangerous as it all to close to Incarna. I actually think a lot of players have already let micro transactions slip in through the back door in the form of ship SKINs, a feature that nearly everyone had wanted, but somehow CCP cleverly managed to tie it to microtransactions without much of a fuss from the players. It was explained away at the time that it is fine as ship skins are cosmetic items; this idea on the other hand is going to be different as SPs are far from cosmetic. Rubbish. People won't quit over this. Why would they? It doesn't materially affect your game play if you choose not to participate. I And the feedback on reddit was very different to here, indicating that there is a possibile significant upside. Don't like microtransactions? Simply don't do them. Buy from the market instead. If this was a "soul-bound" proposal I would be dead against it. But it isn't so I have no problem with it. You failed as a psychic. I'll be one of the first to run away from this horrid game if this abomination is unleashed into Eve.
That's the glory of an MMO, the game will happily keep ticking along with or without you. Do what you got to do, unless there are a thousand others lined up behind you queuing for the exit then it will matter very little to the rest of us or CCP for that matter. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
187
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:32:55 -
[3654] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:So you persist in not answering a very basic, and quite important, question. Which is all a bit weird given all the effort and spamming you do in this thread.
i've answered it every time you've asked it. you just seem to be illiterate. No, you haven't. If it's "the same" as you put it (which it is not, obviously) then you wouldn't care whether or not it would be implemented and while you might have an opinion for or against it wouldn't incite your hilarious **** spamming spin doctoring. The very FACT that you sperg all over this thread proves there's a vested interest somewhere which goes beyond "it's the same so meh who cares". So again: why do you clown all over this thread, what is your personal motivation? Given how outspoken you are on the subject I'm sure you can explain it to us. Heck you might even convince us!
I told you the reason.
And no he won't! |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
223
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:34:00 -
[3655] - Quote
A serious request, Is there any chance the ISDs could clear out all of the posts made by Dave? We all are aware of his viewpoint, perhaps just leave one of his posts here for historical purposes. It is a drastic move but he has made the thread unreadable for anyone wanting to follow this discussion. It is clear he is simply spamming the thread to shut down all reasonable discussion.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
73
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:34:20 -
[3656] - Quote
in b4 thread gets closed due to trolling/offtopic/to much feedback that ccp doesn't want to hear \o/
Kinda suits the SP trading discussion (lyrics in description)
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
121
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:34:26 -
[3657] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:A serious request, Is there any chance the ISDs could clear out all of the posts made by Dave? We all are aware of his viewpoint, perhaps just leave one of his posts here for historical purposes. It is a drastic move but he has made the thread unreadable for anyone wanting to follow this discussion. It is clear he is simply spamming the thread to shut down all reasonable discussion.
Report him and see :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Sgt Ocker
Military Bustards
729
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:36:04 -
[3658] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:I hope you aren't a Dev because if you can't see a difference between the character bazaar (selling/buying predefined skill packages) and selling unallocated SP. CCP is in a lot of trouble and could be facing a very bleak future. there's a quick way to check if i'm a dev or not. devs have a blue tag that says they're a dev on their portrait. now, move your eyes to the left side of the screen. do i have a blue tag? You really are a self consumed Ass aren't you..
Missing the point of a post and dodging answering questions - Seems to be your thing.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
225
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:36:40 -
[3659] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Moac Tor wrote:A serious request, Is there any chance the ISDs could clear out all of the posts made by Dave? We all are aware of his viewpoint, perhaps just leave one of his posts here for historical purposes. It is a drastic move but he has made the thread unreadable for anyone wanting to follow this discussion. It is clear he is simply spamming the thread to shut down all reasonable discussion. Report him and see :) Ok done, I am sure he must be breaking at least one of the forum rules.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:39:26 -
[3660] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Moac Tor wrote:A serious request, Is there any chance the ISDs could clear out all of the posts made by Dave? We all are aware of his viewpoint, perhaps just leave one of his posts here for historical purposes. It is a drastic move but he has made the thread unreadable for anyone wanting to follow this discussion. It is clear he is simply spamming the thread to shut down all reasonable discussion. Report him and see :)
please do.
i'm interested to see if "being dave stark" is now against the forum rules. |
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
225
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:41:13 -
[3661] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Moac Tor wrote:A serious request, Is there any chance the ISDs could clear out all of the posts made by Dave? We all are aware of his viewpoint, perhaps just leave one of his posts here for historical purposes. It is a drastic move but he has made the thread unreadable for anyone wanting to follow this discussion. It is clear he is simply spamming the thread to shut down all reasonable discussion. Report him and see :) please do. i'm interested to see if "being dave stark" is now against the forum rules. So am I. But in all seriousness this is the reason places like redit have become the venue for official feedback, because it is all too easy for one or two people to derail a topic on the eve forums.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:43:03 -
[3662] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Moac Tor wrote:A serious request, Is there any chance the ISDs could clear out all of the posts made by Dave? We all are aware of his viewpoint, perhaps just leave one of his posts here for historical purposes. It is a drastic move but he has made the thread unreadable for anyone wanting to follow this discussion. It is clear he is simply spamming the thread to shut down all reasonable discussion. Report him and see :) please do. i'm interested to see if "being dave stark" is now against the forum rules. So am I. But in all seriousness this is the reason places like redit have become the venue for official feedback, because it is all too easy for one or two people to derail a topic on the eve forums.
yeah, i said exactly that in this thread ages ago.
the ability to collapse a string of replies between two people is really nice. the first time i saw it i thought the layout was hideous but it's actually great once you get used to it. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
153
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:44:07 -
[3663] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:But I think, if CCP markets the game correctly, they would be able to explain to possible new players, that SP is not what defines your character. How convenient, that CCP has updated the wiki with 8 golden rules of EvE.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Golden_Rules
Since the game launcher ad, will eventually be removed. CCP should consider having this permanently on the launcher, or somewhere else for newbies to read.
To all the people still using the "It's P2W cause I can just farm infinite SP points on my character".
Quote:Experience matters, not ISK or Skills
Quote:Total skillpoints count doesn't matter much either, it's level of relevant skills to the current situation that does. Yes, that does mean a 2 mil SP combat-oriented newbie could badly beat up a 60 mil SP industry-oriented veteran. As has been argued in this argument as well, SP does not matter. Especially combined with how the skills work (80% are trained extremely fast) and how combat works (rock-paper-scissors system).
So can we please stop using this argument over and over again, since the counter-arguments are the same and it just results in 100 pages of the same being said repeatedly. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:45:37 -
[3664] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:General Lootit wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote: This devalues SP and Time, therefore devalues the vet's and players that have supported the game since day 1. It goes against most values and standards of the player base.
It can't devalues something that not for sale. Syn'Drakkahr wrote: But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time.
To create SP somebody need to wait training time and then sell it. Syn'Drakkahr wrote: At this current stage, the update means people will simply set up SP character farms and sell the SP on the market for gains.
Firstly you need purche for PLEX and extractors to be able to farm SP. Quotes: 1.) You devalue the time players have spent in EVE online by making TIME & SP so ready available. 2.) Enough farms & SP sales will make everyone hit MAX skills in a SHORT amount of TIME! = No one is UNIQUE! 3.) WELL DONE! 1)It will devalue training time for sure but is it makes your char so speacial like one of the bazaars toons or time which you spend for actually playing or personality which you make? Maybe you just afraid that someone make example from you and rearange skill like you did? I think it's reason to proud if someone make examples of you.
2)Farmers need massive supply of extractors so they are much depending from price on the market. If everyone will farm SP like this it wont be profitable because of high price on extractor and low price on SP. Market will balace it. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
225
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:48:30 -
[3665] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Moac Tor wrote:A serious request, Is there any chance the ISDs could clear out all of the posts made by Dave? We all are aware of his viewpoint, perhaps just leave one of his posts here for historical purposes. It is a drastic move but he has made the thread unreadable for anyone wanting to follow this discussion. It is clear he is simply spamming the thread to shut down all reasonable discussion. Report him and see :) please do. i'm interested to see if "being dave stark" is now against the forum rules. So am I. But in all seriousness this is the reason places like redit have become the venue for official feedback, because it is all too easy for one or two people to derail a topic on the eve forums. yeah, i said exactly that in this thread ages ago. the ability to collapse a string of replies between two people is really nice. the first time i saw it i thought the layout was hideous but it's actually great once you get used to it. Yep the structure of redit is great for discussing things. The problem is a lot of the playerbase don't use redit, and a lot that do probably aren't active subscribers and so don't really care about the long term future of eve.
Like a couple of people mentioned, a lot of them could be old players just looking to cash out using this system and then they can basically play for free on the back of their massive SP pools.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Daimus Daranius
Viziam Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:48:50 -
[3666] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Zappity wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Zappity wrote:It would not be called a 'sacred cow' if it were uncontroversial. But this is one that needs to be turned into a steak. Judging from the feedback in this thread it would seem that your stance on the subject is not shared by the majority of people in this thread and would not be too healthy for subscription numbers. Yes you could just write this all off as idle threats, but if you are in CCPs position would you want to really risk it and be the one who bought a 12 year old game to its knees just so you can implement this? Everyone realised that jump fatigue and the sov changes needed to be done, and so despite the negative reactions players stuck with CCP as we knew we could not keep the status quo. This on the other hand is much more dangerous as it all to close to Incarna. I actually think a lot of players have already let micro transactions slip in through the back door in the form of ship SKINs, a feature that nearly everyone had wanted, but somehow CCP cleverly managed to tie it to microtransactions without much of a fuss from the players. It was explained away at the time that it is fine as ship skins are cosmetic items; this idea on the other hand is going to be different as SPs are far from cosmetic. Rubbish. People won't quit over this. Why would they? It doesn't materially affect your game play if you choose not to participate. I And the feedback on reddit was very different to here, indicating that there is a possibile significant upside. Don't like microtransactions? Simply don't do them. Buy from the market instead. If this was a "soul-bound" proposal I would be dead against it. But it isn't so I have no problem with it. You failed as a psychic. I'll be one of the first to run away from this horrid game if this abomination is unleashed into Eve.
Can I have your stuff?
Amarr Victor!
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
430
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:49:02 -
[3667] - Quote
What is ETA on this feature anyway?
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
187
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:51:00 -
[3668] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:It's me the only tired of seeing how the thread has devolved into 50% of Dave Stark vs the Universe? What a troll.
No!
Dave shut the hell up and go away!
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
430
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:53:07 -
[3669] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:As has been argued in this argument as well, SP does not matter. Especially combined with how the skills work (80% are trained extremely fast) and how combat works (rock-paper-scissors system).
So can we please stop using this argument over and over again, since the counter-arguments are the same and it just results in 100 pages of the same being said repeatedly. Thank you for clearing this up. If it's not about SP, as CCP claims, it's all about the money...
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:53:13 -
[3670] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Yep the structure of redit is great for discussing things. The problem is a lot of the playerbase don't use redit, and a lot that do probably aren't active subscribers and so don't really care about the long term future of eve.
Like a couple of people mentioned, a lot of them could be old players just looking to cash out using this system and then they can basically play for free on the back of their massive SP pools.
from what i've seen it looks like most of the people are active subscribers. it's hard to know for sure, though.
if people want to cash out, they already can. sell the character, RMT the isk... or just directly RMT the character. it's not like this idea opens up ways to cash out that weren't already there. |
|
Dave Stark
7613
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:53:59 -
[3671] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:It's me the only tired of seeing how the thread has devolved into 50% of Dave Stark vs the Universe? What a troll. No! Dave shut the hell up and go away!
now you're just being rude. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
225
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:55:31 -
[3672] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Yep the structure of redit is great for discussing things. The problem is a lot of the playerbase don't use redit, and a lot that do probably aren't active subscribers and so don't really care about the long term future of eve.
Like a couple of people mentioned, a lot of them could be old players just looking to cash out using this system and then they can basically play for free on the back of their massive SP pools. from what i've seen it looks like most of the people are active subscribers. it's hard to know for sure, though. if people want to cash out, they already can. sell the character, RMT the isk... or just directly RMT the character. it's not like this idea opens up ways to cash out that weren't already there. It is a lot easier to chop off bits from your main that you don't need anymore than to completely sell your character on the bazaar and start a new one.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Koki Ottic
Merry dancers in the sky
58
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:58:50 -
[3673] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:A serious request, Is there any chance the ISDs could clear out all of the posts made by Dave? We all are aware of his viewpoint, perhaps just leave one of his posts here for historical purposes. It is a drastic move but he has made the thread unreadable for anyone wanting to follow this discussion. It is clear he is simply spamming the thread to shut down all reasonable discussion.
If you click on a users name there is an option to hide post. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
187
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:00:12 -
[3674] - Quote
Daimus Daranius wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Zappity wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Zappity wrote:It would not be called a 'sacred cow' if it were uncontroversial. But this is one that needs to be turned into a steak. Judging from the feedback in this thread it would seem that your stance on the subject is not shared by the majority of people in this thread and would not be too healthy for subscription numbers. Yes you could just write this all off as idle threats, but if you are in CCPs position would you want to really risk it and be the one who bought a 12 year old game to its knees just so you can implement this? Everyone realised that jump fatigue and the sov changes needed to be done, and so despite the negative reactions players stuck with CCP as we knew we could not keep the status quo. This on the other hand is much more dangerous as it all to close to Incarna. I actually think a lot of players have already let micro transactions slip in through the back door in the form of ship SKINs, a feature that nearly everyone had wanted, but somehow CCP cleverly managed to tie it to microtransactions without much of a fuss from the players. It was explained away at the time that it is fine as ship skins are cosmetic items; this idea on the other hand is going to be different as SPs are far from cosmetic. Rubbish. People won't quit over this. Why would they? It doesn't materially affect your game play if you choose not to participate. I And the feedback on reddit was very different to here, indicating that there is a possibile significant upside. Don't like microtransactions? Simply don't do them. Buy from the market instead. If this was a "soul-bound" proposal I would be dead against it. But it isn't so I have no problem with it. You failed as a psychic. I'll be one of the first to run away from this horrid game if this abomination is unleashed into Eve. Can I have your stuff?
Sure I'll leave a couple million isk worth of junk you can have. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
155
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:01:08 -
[3675] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Maekchu wrote:As has been argued in this argument as well, SP does not matter. Especially combined with how the skills work (80% are trained extremely fast) and how combat works (rock-paper-scissors system).
So can we please stop using this argument over and over again, since the counter-arguments are the same and it just results in 100 pages of the same being said repeatedly. Thank you for clearing this up. If it's not about SP, as CCP claims, it's all about the money... I would totally agree with you, if the feature was only attainable with IRL money. However, since it is not. This is very similar to a Plex, but instead of ISK you exchange SP. If you are against this idea, you should equally be against Plex, because both gives you the option to progress faster by buying items with IRL money. However, with how EvE works both more ISK and more SP does not really matter, since you cannot "win" EvE based on these two factors alone. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
230
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:01:30 -
[3676] - Quote
Koki Ottic wrote:Moac Tor wrote:A serious request, Is there any chance the ISDs could clear out all of the posts made by Dave? We all are aware of his viewpoint, perhaps just leave one of his posts here for historical purposes. It is a drastic move but he has made the thread unreadable for anyone wanting to follow this discussion. It is clear he is simply spamming the thread to shut down all reasonable discussion. If you click on a users name there is an option to hide post. You can't hide all the posts that quote him in it though. It is an obvious tactic to derail the discussion. Goons have been using it for ages.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:02:03 -
[3677] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Yep the structure of redit is great for discussing things. The problem is a lot of the playerbase don't use redit, and a lot that do probably aren't active subscribers and so don't really care about the long term future of eve.
Like a couple of people mentioned, a lot of them could be old players just looking to cash out using this system and then they can basically play for free on the back of their massive SP pools. from what i've seen it looks like most of the people are active subscribers. it's hard to know for sure, though. if people want to cash out, they already can. sell the character, RMT the isk... or just directly RMT the character. it's not like this idea opens up ways to cash out that weren't already there. It is a lot easier to chop off bits from your main that you don't need anymore than to completely sell your character on the bazaar and start a new one.
it's a lot easier to just list it on ebay and email some one the username/password once the paypal funds clear. that's even easier than hacking your character up to sell on the market, or listing it on the bazaar. |
Jared Khanar
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:02:22 -
[3678] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: I would totally agree with you, if the feature was only attainable with IRL money. However, since it is not. This is very similar to a Plex, but instead of ISK you exchange SP. If you are against this idea, you should equally be against Plex, because both gives you the option to progress faster by buying an items with IRL money. However, with how EvE works both more ISK and more SP does not really matter, since you cannot "win" EvE based on these two factors alone.
It is only available with rl money as the extractors are bought via aurum
as i postet some pages ago:
player extracting sp - money to ccp <-> player buying sp via isk - no money to ccp player extracting sp - money to ccp <-> player buying sp via rl money (plex) - money to ccp
two options - one of them pays ccp on BOTH sides
it doesn-¦t matter if you pay directly with rl money or plex - either way ccp gets money |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
155
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:03:32 -
[3679] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Maekchu wrote: I would totally agree with you, if the feature was only attainable with IRL money. However, since it is not. This is very similar to a Plex, but instead of ISK you exchange SP. If you are against this idea, you should equally be against Plex, because both gives you the option to progress faster by buying an items with IRL money. However, with how EvE works both more ISK and more SP does not really matter, since you cannot "win" EvE based on these two factors alone.
It is only available with rl money as the extractors are bought via aurum You can exchange a Plex for AUR (3500 AUR to be specific). Meaning, this can still be attained with in-game currency only. |
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:05:11 -
[3680] - Quote
[/quote] 1)It will devalue training time for sure but is it makes your char so speacial like one of the bazaars toons or time which you spend for actually playing or personality which you make? Maybe you just afraid that someone make example from you and rearanging skill like you did? I think it's reason to proud if someone make examples of you.
2)Farmers need massive supply of extractors so they are much depending from price on the market. If everyone will farm SP like this it wont be profitable because of high price on extractor and low price on SP. Market will balace it.[/quote]
1.) Lets make EVE not UNIQUE? Lets all farm SP and EVERYONE gain Max Skills! Yay!! NO!!
2.) PAY 2 WIN
|
|
Optical Illusion
V0LTA WE FORM V0LTA
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:05:52 -
[3681] - Quote
Is this even still being discussed?
Bad idea is bad.
/endthread |
Jared Khanar
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:05:58 -
[3682] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: You can exchange a Plex for AUR (3500 AUR to be specific). Meaning, this can still be attained with in-game currency only.
and the plex doesn-¦t mean money for ccp? |
Jared Khanar
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:11:21 -
[3683] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: That really has nothing to do with anything.
Sadly this is very important. |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
58
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:11:30 -
[3684] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Maekchu wrote: You can exchange a Plex for AUR (3500 AUR to be specific). Meaning, this can still be attained with in-game currency only.
and the plex doesn-¦t mean money for ccp? try to view this from the company side
How is this even a factor? Why is it seemingly a bad thing that CCP make any money? A well fed CCP can only further development of this game which we are all so passionate about. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
155
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:13:27 -
[3685] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote: 1.) Lets make EVE not UNIQUE? Lets all farm SP and EVERYONE gain Max Skills! Yay!! NO!!
2.) PAY 2 WIN
Sure, feel free to max your skills and you will find out, that those maxed skills have little relevance on your ability to "win" EvE. If you have played the game, you would know that SP is not that relevant. Experience, social skills and intellect is what matters in EvE.
Not arbitrary boundaries for activities, that are attained by keeping an account AFK subbed.
|
Jared Khanar
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:13:35 -
[3686] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Maekchu wrote: You can exchange a Plex for AUR (3500 AUR to be specific). Meaning, this can still be attained with in-game currency only.
and the plex doesn-¦t mean money for ccp? try to view this from the company side How is this even a factor? Why is it seemingly a bad thing that CCP make any money? A well fed CCP can only further development of this game which we are all so passionate about.
If the fact that ccp is charging money not only for a transaction itself but also buyer and seller seperatly in a subscription based game is ok for you - well it is ... ok for you. Nothing to say furthermore if you want to be threated like that :) |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
1037
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:13:43 -
[3687] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.
You are still trying to spin this in a positive light 175+ pages in.
Guess I'm outta here.
Not today spaghetti.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:15:55 -
[3688] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Maekchu wrote: I would totally agree with you, if the feature was only attainable with IRL money. However, since it is not. This is very similar to a Plex, but instead of ISK you exchange SP. If you are against this idea, you should equally be against Plex, because both gives you the option to progress faster by buying an items with IRL money. However, with how EvE works both more ISK and more SP does not really matter, since you cannot "win" EvE based on these two factors alone.
It is only available with rl money as the extractors are bought via aurum You can exchange a Plex for AUR (3500 AUR to be specific). Meaning, this can still be attained with in-game currency only.
You think that the plex comes from the ether too ??? |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
155
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:16:15 -
[3689] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Rawthorm wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Maekchu wrote: You can exchange a Plex for AUR (3500 AUR to be specific). Meaning, this can still be attained with in-game currency only.
and the plex doesn-¦t mean money for ccp? try to view this from the company side How is this even a factor? Why is it seemingly a bad thing that CCP make any money? A well fed CCP can only further development of this game which we are all so passionate about. If the fact that ccp is charging money not only for a transaction itself but also buyer and seller seperatly in a subscription based game is ok for you - well it is ... ok for you. And both transactions can be payed with in-game currency.
They are basically making a Plex for SP. Again, if you are against this idea, you should equally be against Plex rioting on the forums day in and day out.
|
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:16:21 -
[3690] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote: 1.) Lets make EVE not UNIQUE? Lets all farm SP and EVERYONE gain Max Skills! Yay!! NO!!
2.) PAY 2 WIN
Sure, feel free to max your skills and you will find out, that those maxed skills have little relevance on your ability to "win" EvE. If you have played the game, you would know that SP is not that relevant. Experience, social skills and intellect is what matters in EvE. Not arbitrary boundaries for activities, that are attained by keeping an account AFK subbed.
It not about maxing Skills, its about keeping EVE Unique! Fed up of repeating my self. |
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
431
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:16:27 -
[3691] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:I would totally agree with you, if the feature was only attainable with IRL money. However, since it is not. This is very similar to a Plex, but instead of ISK you exchange SP. If you are against this idea, you should equally be against Plex, because both gives you the option to progress faster by buying an items with IRL money. However, with how EvE works both more ISK and more SP does not really matter, since you cannot "win" EvE based on these two factors alone. Buying items with plex and buying items+SP with it is not equal. The only advantage you have with plex is that you don't have to farm pve content in game for ISK (for example). If you want to help new players by introduced proposal items they have to pay anyway, because they don't have enough SP/ISK/experience to earn ISK effectively. It the end it's always the money. I'm not against baazar, it's necessary evil. I not against other players respec their SP (I don't give a s*** about it). I against lie that this will help new players. It won't, they have to pay RL cash.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Jared Khanar
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:17:28 -
[3692] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: And both transactions can be payed with in-game currency.
They are basically making a Plex for SP. Again, if you are against this idea, you should equally be against Plex rioting on the forums day in and day out.
Even if this is possible the underlying rl money flow can-¦t be denied. Plex is only payed one time for example. so you can-¦t compare this feature directly to plex - else the plexbuyer has to pay as it gets bought from ccp - and the buyer has to pay rl money additionaly if it gets bought from the market.
EDIT: also this sp trade is easily exploitable by ccp - plex not |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1759
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:17:38 -
[3693] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:my viewpoint of completely not caring whether this idea is added or not? Yeah, that's probably why you spam four posts per site for the last three days.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
155
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:17:40 -
[3694] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Maekchu wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Maekchu wrote: I would totally agree with you, if the feature was only attainable with IRL money. However, since it is not. This is very similar to a Plex, but instead of ISK you exchange SP. If you are against this idea, you should equally be against Plex, because both gives you the option to progress faster by buying an items with IRL money. However, with how EvE works both more ISK and more SP does not really matter, since you cannot "win" EvE based on these two factors alone.
It is only available with rl money as the extractors are bought via aurum You can exchange a Plex for AUR (3500 AUR to be specific). Meaning, this can still be attained with in-game currency only. You think that the plex comes from the ether too ??? Which was my point. If you are against this change you should equally be against Plex.
Both are pay to progress mechanics. Both are very similar at their core, but Plex exchanges ISK while this new mechanic exchanges SP.
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:18:54 -
[3695] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Quote: 1)It will devalue training time for sure but is it makes your char so speacial like one of the bazaars toons or time which you spend for actually playing or personality which you make? Maybe you just afraid that someone make example from you and rearanging skill like you did? I think it's reason to proud if someone make examples of you.
2)Farmers need massive supply of extractors so they are much depending from price on the market. If everyone will farm SP like this it wont be profitable because of high price on extractor and low price on SP. Market will balace it.
1.) Lets make EVE not UNIQUE? Lets all farm SP and EVERYONE gain Max Skills! Yay!! NO!!2.) PAY 2 WIN You are not constractive any more. If you want to continue dialog please be more specific. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
155
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:20:29 -
[3696] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Maekchu wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote: 1.) Lets make EVE not UNIQUE? Lets all farm SP and EVERYONE gain Max Skills! Yay!! NO!!
2.) PAY 2 WIN
Sure, feel free to max your skills and you will find out, that those maxed skills have little relevance on your ability to "win" EvE. If you have played the game, you would know that SP is not that relevant. Experience, social skills and intellect is what matters in EvE. Not arbitrary boundaries for activities, that are attained by keeping an account AFK subbed. It not about maxing Skills, its about keeping EVE Unique! Fed up of repeating my self. But some of EvE unique game mechanics are just fundamentally bad.
A mechanic that promotes AFK playstyle, where you just spin ships and wait for skills to train is bad. The uniqueness in EvE is its sandbox elements and the interaction between players. This is what should be promoted and I think this feature does that, since it gives people the option to more rapidly get out and do what they enjoy. Meaning more people in space.
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
431
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:22:44 -
[3697] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:But some of EvE unique game mechanics are just fundamentally bad. So let's make it even worse?
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:23:44 -
[3698] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Quote: 1)It will devalue training time for sure but is it makes your char so speacial like one of the bazaars toons or time which you spend for actually playing or personality which you make? Maybe you just afraid that someone make example from you and rearanging skill like you did? I think it's reason to proud if someone make examples of you.
2)Farmers need massive supply of extractors so they are much depending from price on the market. If everyone will farm SP like this it wont be profitable because of high price on extractor and low price on SP. Market will balace it.
1.) Lets make EVE not UNIQUE? Lets all farm SP and EVERYONE gain Max Skills! Yay!! NO!!2.) PAY 2 WIN You are not constractive any more. If you want to continue dialog please be more specific.
Right, I'll mention this 1 more time.
Removing time to skill by making it payable to get instant SP removes the Unique qualities that makes EVE a sandbox. 30+k players that can purchase SP from the market is not unique. |
Jared Khanar
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:24:13 -
[3699] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: A mechanic that promotes AFK playstyle, where you just spin ships and wait for skills to train is bad. The uniqueness in EvE is its sandbox elements and the interaction between players. This is what should be promoted and I think this feature does that, since it gives people the option to more rapidly get out and do what they enjoy. Meaning more people in space.
Also - if you can interfere more and more with rl money - how can you call this a sandbox anymore if you are able to change the rules? maybe we should redefine it as rl-money-sandbox then !? |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
58
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:25:10 -
[3700] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Rawthorm wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Maekchu wrote: You can exchange a Plex for AUR (3500 AUR to be specific). Meaning, this can still be attained with in-game currency only.
and the plex doesn-¦t mean money for ccp? try to view this from the company side How is this even a factor? Why is it seemingly a bad thing that CCP make any money? A well fed CCP can only further development of this game which we are all so passionate about. If the fact that ccp is charging money not only for a transaction itself but also buyer and seller seperatly in a subscription based game is ok for you - well it is ... ok for you. Nothing to say furthermore if you want to be threated like that :) I guess we are not paying our subscription to use all eve features - we are paying only for access and additionaly to use the features to come - but not only one time - better several times for the same one ...
If you really care that strongly about "double paying" as you put it, the use this feature by paying strictly in ISK off the eve market. Those who don't care will use PLEX>AURUM. Everyone's happy. CCP isn't holding a gun to your head and forcing YOU to fork over more RL cash to access this feature.
As for everyone else, it's none of your business if they want to spend RL money on it or not. |
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:26:16 -
[3701] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Maekchu wrote:I would totally agree with you, if the feature was only attainable with IRL money. However, since it is not. This is very similar to a Plex, but instead of ISK you exchange SP. If you are against this idea, you should equally be against Plex, because both gives you the option to progress faster by buying an items with IRL money. However, with how EvE works both more ISK and more SP does not really matter, since you cannot "win" EvE based on these two factors alone. Buying items with plex and buying items+SP with it is not equal. The only advantage you have with plex is that you don't have to farm pve content in game for ISK (for example). If you want to help new players by introduced proposal items they have to pay anyway, because they don't have enough SP/ISK/experience to earn ISK effectively. It the end it's always the money. I'm not against baazar, it's necessary evil. I not against other players respec their SP (I don't give a s*** about it). I against lie that this will help new players. It won't, they have to pay RL cash. I'm that newbie that will you use it without any money involved and I don't mind if another one will pay for SP. So please don't speak from us all. |
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:26:21 -
[3702] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dave Stark wrote:my viewpoint of completely not caring whether this idea is added or not? Yeah, that's probably why you spam four posts per site for the last three days.
spam what? this is the only place i'm actively discussing this idea. |
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:27:10 -
[3703] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:General Lootit wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Quote: 1)It will devalue training time for sure but is it makes your char so speacial like one of the bazaars toons or time which you spend for actually playing or personality which you make? Maybe you just afraid that someone make example from you and rearanging skill like you did? I think it's reason to proud if someone make examples of you.
2)Farmers need massive supply of extractors so they are much depending from price on the market. If everyone will farm SP like this it wont be profitable because of high price on extractor and low price on SP. Market will balace it.
1.) Lets make EVE not UNIQUE? Lets all farm SP and EVERYONE gain Max Skills! Yay!! NO!!2.) PAY 2 WIN You are not constractive any more. If you want to continue dialog please be more specific. Right, I'll mention this 1 more time. Removing time to skill by making it payable to get instant SP removes the Unique qualities that makes EVE a sandbox. 30+k players that can purchase SP from the market is not unique.
you haven't removed the time to skill. they still have to be trained by some one. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:28:24 -
[3704] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Maekchu wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Maekchu wrote: I would totally agree with you, if the feature was only attainable with IRL money. However, since it is not. This is very similar to a Plex, but instead of ISK you exchange SP. If you are against this idea, you should equally be against Plex, because both gives you the option to progress faster by buying an items with IRL money. However, with how EvE works both more ISK and more SP does not really matter, since you cannot "win" EvE based on these two factors alone.
It is only available with rl money as the extractors are bought via aurum You can exchange a Plex for AUR (3500 AUR to be specific). Meaning, this can still be attained with in-game currency only. You think that the plex comes from the ether too ??? Which was my point. If you are against this change you should equally be against Plex. Both are pay to progress mechanics. Both are very similar at their core, but Plex exchanges ISK while this new mechanic exchanges SP. Plex has nothing to do with this topic, but a plex as it is now cannot accelerate skillpoint manipulation, and when plex was first introduced we didnt have aurum as yet another way to extort rl cash for useless cosmetic nonsense |
Jared Khanar
40
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:28:26 -
[3705] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote: As for everyone else, it's none of your business if they want to spend RL money on it or not.
So it sums up in shut up and leave if your opinion is against this - i can assure you it-¦s not my business what anyone likes to do with his / her money.
Personally i want to avoid games that only want money for everything you do. Thats one of the primary things that attracted me to eve. As this is changed now more and more i-¦m leaving. As already mentioned my subs are running out in a few days and ... bye.
But that doesn-¦t mean i have to remain silent until this :) |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
156
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:29:24 -
[3706] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Maekchu wrote: And both transactions can be payed with in-game currency.
They are basically making a Plex for SP. Again, if you are against this idea, you should equally be against Plex rioting on the forums day in and day out.
Even if this is possible the underlying rl money flow can-¦t be denied. Plex is only payed one time for example. so you can-¦t compare this feature directly to plex - else the plexbuyer has to pay as it gets bought from ccp - and the buyer has to pay rl money additionaly if it gets bought from the market. EDIT: also this sp trade is easily exploitable by ccp - plex not First of all, there is actually only one "IRL" money fee. The AUR for the initial Transneural Skill Extractor.
The following Transneural Skill Packet can only be sold for ISK or traded. Whether people will finance this isk with a Plex has nothing to do with it.
Whether this is easily exploitable is still to be seen, since we don't have the final numbers. However, I still feel many of the exploits already exist in the game.
- SP farming alts for ISK. Can already be done with the bazaar. In addition to, we don't have the final numbers so we don't know how profitable that even will be.
- SP farming to inject SP into main. As argued many many times before, the total SP pool on your character is not that important.
- SP farming to inject SP into other alts and spawn a horde of Titan alts everywhere. Can already be done, by just buying character of the bazaar.
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Ponder Yonder
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
83
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:29:42 -
[3707] - Quote
I like this.
1. Despite the screamers in this forum's 'opinions', it is NOT pay to win. Someone else have already trained the SP being traded. 2. There is a nett loss of SP in the transaction, which I like. 3. It gives us a chance to up-skill alts as required 4. It gives players the chance to correct past mistakes
To everybody obsessing about never being able to have as much SP as the vets, ask yourself why you're playing this game. You can have as much fun with 1 mil SP as with 100 mil. If you're worried about someone else's SP, you're doing it wrong.
- Ponder |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
58
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:31:33 -
[3708] - Quote
Sexy Cakes wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want. You are still trying to spin this in a positive light 175+ pages in. Guess I'm outta here.
Have you stopped to consider that for a great many people this feature may actually be positive? Not everyone chooses to view this in the same negative light as you do.
Personally I think this feature diminishes some of the romanticism I have for eve as an old-timer, but I'm able to see past my own narrow bitter-vet viewpoint and see that it may be beneficial for the larger game beyond just me. EvE's got to keep evolving. |
Jared Khanar
40
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:34:00 -
[3709] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: The following Transneural Skill Packet can only be sold for ISK or traded. Whether people will finance this isk with a Plex has nothing to do with it.
Again - view this from the companys side. If it-¦s only about enabling a good, needed feature it could be made tradeable only via the market - but it is not. there are a lot of revenue decission involved in this design ... |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
156
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:34:51 -
[3710] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Maekchu wrote: A mechanic that promotes AFK playstyle, where you just spin ships and wait for skills to train is bad. The uniqueness in EvE is its sandbox elements and the interaction between players. This is what should be promoted and I think this feature does that, since it gives people the option to more rapidly get out and do what they enjoy. Meaning more people in space.
Also - if you can interfere more and more with rl money - how can you call this a sandbox anymore if you are able to change the rules? maybe we should redefine it as rl-money-sandbox then !? Please elaborate in detail, how you are somehow able to change the rules based on this feature?
And the rules are still there, but people will be given the option to boost themselves past some skills they needs, instead of just keeping the game subbed and not play for a month.
What is better? Giving people the option to get faster into (for example, Frigate PvP) resulting in more combat in FW? Or a system, where you are maybe a month away from what you want to do skill-wise. So instead of playing the game for a month, you just keep it subbed and offline train.
The rules are still the same for all players. People are just given an option to skip some of the mundane skill training, in favor of more activity in space.
|
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:35:36 -
[3711] - Quote
Ponder Yonder wrote:I like this.
1. Despite the screamers in this forum's 'opinions', it is NOT pay to win. Someone else have already trained the SP being traded. 2. There is a nett loss of SP in the transaction, which I like. 3. It gives us a chance to up-skill alts as required 4. It gives players the chance to correct past mistakes
To everybody obsessing about never being able to have as much SP as the vets, ask yourself why you're playing this game. You can have as much fun with 1 mil SP as with 100 mil. If you're worried about someone else's SP, you're doing it wrong.
- Ponder
Youve not read the for's arguements then, apparently new characters can't do anything until theyve amased a few months worth of sp's to actually undock and take a peak whats waiting outside a station. |
Jared Khanar
40
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:37:30 -
[3712] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: Please elaborate in detail, how you are somehow able to change the rules based on this feature?
And the rules are still there, but people will be given the option to boost themselves past some skills they needs, instead of just keeping the game subbed and not play for a month.
What is better? Giving people the option to get faster into (for example, Frigate PvP) resulting in more combat in FW? Or a system, where you are maybe a month away from what you want to do skill-wise. So instead of playing the game for a month, you just keep it subbed and offline train.
The rules are still the same for all players. People are just given an option to skip some of the mundane skill training, in favor of more activity in space.
don-¦t think in good or bad - boosting as you call it is a modification of a mechanic / rule / effect / state / whatever from one form to another - a change ... just understand the word in it-¦s meaning without projecting emotions into it.
Thanks :) |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
58
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:37:41 -
[3713] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Rawthorm wrote: As for everyone else, it's none of your business if they want to spend RL money on it or not.
So it sums up in shut up and leave if your opinion is against this - i can assure you it-¦s not my business what anyone likes to do with his / her money. Personally i want to avoid games that only want money for everything you do. Thats one of the primary things that attracted me to eve. As this is changed now more and more i-¦m leaving. As already mentioned my subs are running out in a few days and ... bye. But that doesn-¦t mean i have to remain silent until this :)
Again, your not forced to pay RL money to use this feature. Why does it matter if someone else chooses to? The end result is the same. His SP boost isn't bigger just because he used his credit card and you used your ISK. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
156
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:42:11 -
[3714] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Maekchu wrote: The following Transneural Skill Packet can only be sold for ISK or traded. Whether people will finance this isk with a Plex has nothing to do with it.
Again - view this from the companys side. If it-¦s only about enabling a good, needed feature it could be made tradeable only via the market - but it is not. there are a lot of revenue decission involved in this design ... And I will tell you again. Plex has the same mechanic. You should equally be against that, given your arguments on this issue.
CCP is a company and a company needs revenue in order to keep running. Obviously, CCP will try to monetize their game, since currently they only have 2 possible revenue streams (EvE and Dust). As an EvE player, you should only have an interest in CCPs effort to make money. Mainly because, if CCP goes bankrupt EvE will shut down.
That being said, whether or not this is a money grab is not really relevant. What is important, is the feature itself. As it currently stands, gameplay-wise it is not that different from a Plex.
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Jared Khanar
40
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:42:59 -
[3715] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Rawthorm wrote: As for everyone else, it's none of your business if they want to spend RL money on it or not.
So it sums up in shut up and leave if your opinion is against this - i can assure you it-¦s not my business what anyone likes to do with his / her money. Personally i want to avoid games that only want money for everything you do. Thats one of the primary things that attracted me to eve. As this is changed now more and more i-¦m leaving. As already mentioned my subs are running out in a few days and ... bye. But that doesn-¦t mean i have to remain silent until this :) Again, your not forced to pay RL money to use this feature. Why does it matter if someone else chooses to? The end result is the same. His SP boost isn't bigger just because he used his credit card and you used your ISK.
again - yes this is true. you are able to do so.
but will this be the norm? I guess not. What if new players want to use this - as stated this is aimed at them. do they have a good iskincome to support this? what are they going to do? and if this is only a feature to support the playerbase - why additional moneycosts? i have no problem in someone bossting himself - i have a problem with the shown "we are going to milk you even further" attitude.
CCP has already monetized eve with a monthly subscription - then added plex as a second - then added aurum as a third - and now features are coming to generate pressure to use them all. which one is paying the bill doesn-¦t matter for me |
Jimmy Smee
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:44:26 -
[3716] - Quote
I joined as a player coming up to two years ago. What gripped me then and still does now is that Eve is a game that youGÇÖre born into, grow into and quickly establish a rapport with you character/s and the players/characters around you as you progress through the game.
My thoughts on the character bazaar are that it is very useful in allowing new/current/past players the ability to buy an established character and play and think we should keep it as it is with one important change. That change has been voiced already and I think it would be an excellent way forward. Allow characters to be purchased in the normal way, buy a name change package from the New Eden Store for Aurum. This package would not only change your character name but would produce a history tab for the previous character name.
This proposed idea of packaging up part of your characters life in skill points and selling them, well it just feels so wrong and goes against the ethos of the game. There currently are a few areas of the game open to abuse but this idea would be the daddy. It would open a can of worms and cause confusion that could eventually cause irreparable damage to our wonderful game.
To appreciate a skill takes time, during that time you learn your trade be it PvP, trading, industry, etc. All the pitfalls, the disappointments and the joy, to my mind this idea takes away the fundamental gameplay that makes Eve so different. Time should not be circumvented like this; a characters date of birth would be meaningless and the game will seem skewed.
If you must allow ways for real life people to jump into advanced characters then why not create character packages for the various races in Eve. You could create a PvP, mining, an industry package, etc. Not to powerful but with enough skills to make a good start at the game. Maybe this could help with player retention, I donGÇÖt know. Me, I think things should remain as they are and new players should start at the beginning.
If player retention is driving this then what about bringing in skill caps on each level of ship, this has been suggested and explained elsewhere. There must be a better way than progressing with this skill point idea.
So as you will have guessed, I am in the no camp as I donGÇÖt see this idea benefiting the game in the long term, never mind the short.
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Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:46:18 -
[3717] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote: as stated this is aimed at them.
we went through this multiple times. this feature is aimed at everyone. it says so in the devblog. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
156
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:46:38 -
[3718] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Maekchu wrote: Please elaborate in detail, how you are somehow able to change the rules based on this feature?
And the rules are still there, but people will be given the option to boost themselves past some skills they needs, instead of just keeping the game subbed and not play for a month.
What is better? Giving people the option to get faster into (for example, Frigate PvP) resulting in more combat in FW? Or a system, where you are maybe a month away from what you want to do skill-wise. So instead of playing the game for a month, you just keep it subbed and offline train.
The rules are still the same for all players. People are just given an option to skip some of the mundane skill training, in favor of more activity in space.
don-¦t think in good or bad - boosting as you call it is a modification of a mechanic / rule / effect / state / whatever from one form to another - a change ... just understand the word in it-¦s meaning without projecting emotions into it. Thanks :)
Quote:modification -îm+Æd+¬f+¬-êke+¬-â(+Ö)n/ noun
the action of modifying something. "the parts supplied should fit with little or no modification" synonyms:softening, moderation, tempering, qualification, restriction, lessening, reduction, decrease, diminishing, lowering, abatement, mitigation "working class opposition to the tax has led to some modification of this stance"
a change made. plural noun: modifications "a number of modifications are being carried out to the engines" synonyms:alteration, adjustment, change, adaptation, improvement, refinement, revision, recasting, reshaping, refashioning, restyling, revamping, reworking, remodelling, remoulding, reconstruction, reorganization; More
Nothing is being modified to the rules. You get the option to more rapidly gain SP, but the rules of the game are the same. Instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked, I get an option to just buy an item and not afk train that queue.
I don't understand why you say I project emotion. I simply told you the rules are not modified. If someone could buy a permit to not get concorded in HS for real money, that would be changing the rules with a P2W mechanic. But not this.
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Jared Khanar
40
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:47:42 -
[3719] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jared Khanar wrote: as stated this is aimed at them. we went through this multiple times. this feature is aimed at everyone. it says so in the devblog.
so with the dimishing returns it is even aimed at 150m sp chars in the same way without a difference? lol |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:49:23 -
[3720] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Maekchu wrote: The following Transneural Skill Packet can only be sold for ISK or traded. Whether people will finance this isk with a Plex has nothing to do with it.
Again - view this from the companys side. If it-¦s only about enabling a good, needed feature it could be made tradeable only via the market - but it is not. there are a lot of revenue decission involved in this design ... And I will tell you again. Plex has the same mechanic. You should equally be against that, given your arguments on this issue. CCP is a company and a company needs revenue in order to keep running. Obviously, CCP will try to monetize their game, since currently they only have 2 possible revenue streams (EvE and Dust). As an EvE player, you should only have an interest in CCPs effort to make money. Mainly because, if CCP goes bankrupt EvE will shut down. That being said, whether or not this is a money grab is not really relevant. What is important, is the feature itself. As it currently stands, gameplay-wise it is not that different from a Plex.
As an EvE player im interested in the community / content / fun - i have no interest and shouldnt have how CCP try to make money, i pay a sub to play it as such i dont expect to then be hit by all manner of free2play microtransactions that have seeped into so many games, especially one that has remained in my opinion to the highest standard for many years. |
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Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:50:42 -
[3721] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jared Khanar wrote: as stated this is aimed at them. we went through this multiple times. this feature is aimed at everyone. it says so in the devblog. so with the sp losses it is even aimed at 150m sp chars in the same way without a difference? devblogs talk about it so maybe you should read :)
i did read it, i even quoted it.
yes, it's aimed at them in the same way; they can both purchase SP if they want. |
Jared Khanar
40
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:51:18 -
[3722] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: Nothing is being modified to the rules. You get the option to more rapidly gain SP, but the rules of the game are the same. Instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked, I get an option to just buy an item and not afk train that queue.
I don't understand why you say I project emotion. I simply told you the rules are not modified. If someone could buy a permit to not get concorded in HS for real money, that would be changing the rules with a P2W mechanic. But not this.
well it depends how one use words i guess.
If i say the rule is a character gains sp through time in a specific amount - so after 1 year he maybe got 20m sp for example and through additional payment i can end up with 50m instead or more - i am able to call that a modification - as rl money gets transfered in this process it is possible to call that a modification through the use of rl money - if you do not - ok
if i-¦m using the wrong words to describe this - please teach me better ones - english is not my native language ;) but i-¦m sure you are able to understand the meaning...
edit: have to leave now so further answers may take a while ^^ |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
58
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:51:29 -
[3723] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Rawthorm wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Rawthorm wrote: As for everyone else, it's none of your business if they want to spend RL money on it or not.
So it sums up in shut up and leave if your opinion is against this - i can assure you it-¦s not my business what anyone likes to do with his / her money. Personally i want to avoid games that only want money for everything you do. Thats one of the primary things that attracted me to eve. As this is changed now more and more i-¦m leaving. As already mentioned my subs are running out in a few days and ... bye. But that doesn-¦t mean i have to remain silent until this :) Again, your not forced to pay RL money to use this feature. Why does it matter if someone else chooses to? The end result is the same. His SP boost isn't bigger just because he used his credit card and you used your ISK. again - yes this is true. you are able to do so. but will this be the norm? I guess not. What if new players want to use this - as stated this is aimed at them. do they have a good iskincome to support this? what are they going to do? and if this is only a feature to support the playerbase - why additional moneycosts? i have no problem in someone bossting himself - i have a problem with the shown "we are going to milk you even further" attitude. CCP has already monetized eve with a monthly subscription - then added plex as a second - then added aurum as a third - and now features are coming to generate pressure to use them all. which one is paying the bill doesn-¦t matter for me
I don't see it as milking us tho. Milking us would be making this an exclusively RL money only option. Infact I don't think there are any features at all which are strictly RL money only, not even the subscription which is a phenomenal thing for a company to do.
Also Plex as a second, Aurum as a third? Plex is the root, Aurum and ISK are conversion routes from Plex. It in itself isn't a CCP monetized item. To this day there are 3 things you can by with your credit card. Game time, Plex and character transfers. This isn't going to change. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
156
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:51:31 -
[3724] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Maekchu wrote:But some of EvE unique game mechanics are just fundamentally bad. So let's make it even worse? Edit: and charge for it? The bad mechanic is still there for you to use. You can just choose not to use the SP injection.
This however, gives the option for people to skip this bad mechanic if they either invest the needed time to farm the ISK or some RL money. SP queues have always been bad, since it didn't promote active play.
|
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:54:21 -
[3725] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Maekchu wrote: Nothing is being modified to the rules. You get the option to more rapidly gain SP, but the rules of the game are the same. Instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked, I get an option to just buy an item and not afk train that queue.
I don't understand why you say I project emotion. I simply told you the rules are not modified. If someone could buy a permit to not get concorded in HS for real money, that would be changing the rules with a P2W mechanic. But not this.
well it depends how one use words i guess. If i say the rule is a character gains sp through time in a specific amount - so after 1 year he maybe got 20m sp for example and through additional payment i can end up with 50m instead or more - i am able to call that a modification through interfering with rl money - if you do not - ok if i-¦m using the wrong words to describe this - please teach me better ones - english is not my native language ;) edit: have to leave no so further answers may take a while ^^
advancement would probably be a more appropriate word there than modification, as you are paying to advance from 20m sp after 1 year to 50m sp after 1 year. |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
58
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:54:41 -
[3726] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Maekchu wrote: Nothing is being modified to the rules. You get the option to more rapidly gain SP, but the rules of the game are the same. Instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked, I get an option to just buy an item and not afk train that queue.
I don't understand why you say I project emotion. I simply told you the rules are not modified. If someone could buy a permit to not get concorded in HS for real money, that would be changing the rules with a P2W mechanic. But not this.
well it depends how one use words i guess. If i say the rule is a character gains sp through time in a specific amount - so after 1 year he maybe got 20m sp for example and through additional payment i can end up with 50m instead or more - i am able to call that a modification through interfering with rl money - if you do not - ok if i-¦m using the wrong words to describe this - please teach me better ones - english is not my native language ;)
No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
157
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:58:15 -
[3727] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Maekchu wrote: Nothing is being modified to the rules. You get the option to more rapidly gain SP, but the rules of the game are the same. Instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked, I get an option to just buy an item and not afk train that queue.
I don't understand why you say I project emotion. I simply told you the rules are not modified. If someone could buy a permit to not get concorded in HS for real money, that would be changing the rules with a P2W mechanic. But not this.
well it depends how one use words i guess. If i say the rule is a character gains sp through time in a specific amount - so after 1 year he maybe got 20m sp for example and through additional payment i can end up with 50m instead or more - i am able to call that a modification through interfering with rl money - if you do not - ok if i-¦m using the wrong words to describe this - please teach me better ones - english is not my native language ;) First of all, the word is defined as the quoted. You cannot change the meaning of a word, based on your own interest.
That being said, I understand your example. And it would have merit, if every character was forced to train at a specific rate all the time. But that is not the case. Some people will choose only to train the skills they need, then train another character. Or they could choose to buy a character from the bazaar, increasing the SP gained for the individual (and SP lost for the seller, but it's the same in the proposed feature).
So no, nothing is being modified, since SP alone does not change any rules of the game. And "interfering" with rl money already exists with the character bazaar.
Anyway, the point is that no rules are being modified by paying a fee to CCP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:01:07 -
[3728] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Maekchu wrote: Nothing is being modified to the rules. You get the option to more rapidly gain SP, but the rules of the game are the same. Instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked, I get an option to just buy an item and not afk train that queue.
I don't understand why you say I project emotion. I simply told you the rules are not modified. If someone could buy a permit to not get concorded in HS for real money, that would be changing the rules with a P2W mechanic. But not this.
well it depends how one use words i guess. If i say the rule is a character gains sp through time in a specific amount - so after 1 year he maybe got 20m sp for example and through additional payment i can end up with 50m instead or more - i am able to call that a modification through interfering with rl money - if you do not - ok if i-¦m using the wrong words to describe this - please teach me better ones - english is not my native language ;) No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span.
Theres alot of difference there, cybenetics lvl1 doesnt allow a top set of implants, cerebral accel last for a short time and is one off after your so old, doesnt allow you to go from 0 to 10,000,00 in as long as would take to inject them. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:01:33 -
[3729] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote: Removing time to skill by making it payable to get instant SP removes the Unique qualities that makes EVE a sandbox.
Nobody wont remove skill quee. Change only will make new options available and all players will have same accses to it.
Syn'Drakkahr wrote: 30+k players that can purchase SP from the market is not unique.
So I make a conclusion from your statement that you think - only quantity of skills points makes players unique. I so much doubt that everyone will train same skils and there no chance that even small group of players will be able(or wishing to) to maxing out every skill because creating new specialized toon will be cost much cheaper than maxing out single charachter.
Someting about uniquemess |
Perrdy Lady
Hedion University Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:06:00 -
[3730] - Quote
This is straight up a quick cashgrab and the rich wins yet again. Disgusting. |
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2178
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:10:07 -
[3731] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span.
Oh, really?
So today I can train up and skill a GUARANTEED unwatchlisted cyno alt in seconds using plex, can I?
Because once this goes live, I can do that. And I absolutely 100% ******* guarantee EVERY super pilot will do this.
There are far too many horrible offshoots to this specific implementation and furthermore it is caught in the paradox of being either ruthlessly exploitable by the old guard - or utterly worthless to newbeans.
I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one. |
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:14:51 -
[3732] - Quote
afkalt wrote:I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one.
Malcanis' law requires the suggestion to be targeted at new players - which this is not. |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:15:00 -
[3733] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Rawthorm wrote:No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span. Oh, really? So today I can train up and skill a GUARANTEED unwatchlisted cyno alt in seconds using plex, can I? Because once this goes live, I can do that. And I absolutely 100% ******* guarantee EVERY super pilot will do this. There are far too many horrible offshoots to this specific implementation and furthermore it is caught in the paradox of being either ruthlessly exploitable by the old guard - or utterly worthless to newbeans. I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one.
Of course there is a difference, I was just answering within the context of Jared Khanar's post. (In which he was talking about SP gained in the space of a year)
And yes, of course there are ways to potentially abuse this system. That's why the debate should be about reducing these abuses rather than outright writing it off as a bad idea. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2178
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:15:46 -
[3734] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one. Malcanis' law requires the suggestion to be targeted at new players - which this is not.
I didn't think we were openly pandering to vets to abuse things in horrible, game breaking ways.
/shrug |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
157
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:16:14 -
[3735] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Rawthorm wrote:No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span. Oh, really? So today I can train up and skill a GUARANTEED unwatchlisted cyno alt in seconds using plex, can I? Because once this goes live, I can do that. And I absolutely 100% ******* guarantee EVERY super pilot will do this. There are far too many horrible offshoots to this specific implementation and furthermore it is caught in the paradox of being either ruthlessly exploitable by the old guard - or utterly worthless to newbeans. I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one. Well, this can already be done with the character bazaar.
I don't think this is an issue with SP, but with cyno ships. So how could cyno ships be balanced in order to work around this issue? Maybe some form of animation or graphic (like the guns fitted on your ship), that you can see before you engage someone and not only after they've deployed the cyno?
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2179
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:17:13 -
[3736] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:afkalt wrote:Rawthorm wrote:No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span. Oh, really? So today I can train up and skill a GUARANTEED unwatchlisted cyno alt in seconds using plex, can I? Because once this goes live, I can do that. And I absolutely 100% ******* guarantee EVERY super pilot will do this. There are far too many horrible offshoots to this specific implementation and furthermore it is caught in the paradox of being either ruthlessly exploitable by the old guard - or utterly worthless to newbeans. I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one. Of course there is a difference, I was just answering within the context of Jared Khanar's post. (In which he was talking about SP gained in the space of a year) And yes, of course there are ways to potentially abuse this system. That's why the debate should be about reducing these abuses rather than outright writing it off as a bad idea.
There are no limitations in existence which will make this an acceptable idea once you look beyond the highlights and into the detail. The very notion of this being both workable whilst unabusable is a perfect paradox. |
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:17:41 -
[3737] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one. Malcanis' law requires the suggestion to be targeted at new players - which this is not. I didn't think we were openly pandering to vets to abuse things in horrible, game breaking ways. /shrug
Ok, humour me. what they gonna do? |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2179
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:18:29 -
[3738] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:afkalt wrote:Rawthorm wrote:No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span. Oh, really? So today I can train up and skill a GUARANTEED unwatchlisted cyno alt in seconds using plex, can I? Because once this goes live, I can do that. And I absolutely 100% ******* guarantee EVERY super pilot will do this. There are far too many horrible offshoots to this specific implementation and furthermore it is caught in the paradox of being either ruthlessly exploitable by the old guard - or utterly worthless to newbeans. I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one. Well, this can already be done with the character bazaar. I don't think this is an issue with SP, but with cyno ships. So how could cyno ships be balanced in order to work around this issue? Maybe some form of animation or graphic (like the guns fitted on your ship), that you can see before you engage someone and not only after they've deployed the cyno?
What?
Do you even know what supers use cyno alts for and why they are watch listed?
Not to mention the idea of using the bazaar is a) slow and b) reliant on supply. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12747
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:19:38 -
[3739] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Rawthorm wrote:No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span. Oh, really? So today I can train up and skill a GUARANTEED unwatchlisted cyno alt in seconds using plex, can I? Because once this goes live, I can do that. And I absolutely 100% ******* guarantee EVERY super pilot will do this. There are far too many horrible offshoots to this specific implementation and furthermore it is caught in the paradox of being either ruthlessly exploitable by the old guard - or utterly worthless to newbeans. I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one.
Exactly. Cyno alts. Incursion Alts. Burner and FW mission frigate/bomber alts will be instant, because you can do soooo many isk making things with low SP alts that it ain't even funny. And only people who know what they are doing will want to do that in the 1st place.
On a side note, I think I will start bookmarking the most naive posts people make when ideas like this come up so i can make a "remember when you thought this was a good idea" blog post somewhere about it years later lol.
Now that i think about it, I should have started in 2008 when they announced Dominion SOV, you know, that thing that was supposed to be WONDERFUL for new players and small groups
|
Hashtag Rare Pepe
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:22:05 -
[3740] - Quote
So, when will this skillgoo be available. |
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2179
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:23:33 -
[3741] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one. Malcanis' law requires the suggestion to be targeted at new players - which this is not. I didn't think we were openly pandering to vets to abuse things in horrible, game breaking ways. /shrug Ok, humour me. what they gonna do?
Instant T3 subsytem skill loss negated Need a scout? Hello instant unaffiliated interceptor pilot Never have your cyno alts watchlisted for moves again, ever. Need a new suicide ganker or scout for it because you've been burned? Why hello there. Need a POS gunner in an emergency? No problem!
FFS I could create a griffin alt and skill it instantly to come fly over and break tackle on something I foolishly engaged on my mission boat.
The possibilities for creating clean new alts is...frankly mental and if you really think the players won't abuse the ever loving out of this well then I guess you don't know us very well.
This removes any/all delays on having a functional anonymous alt being created with a specific purpose. If you can't see the holes in that...well /me shrugs |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:24:02 -
[3742] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Rawthorm wrote:afkalt wrote:Rawthorm wrote:No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span. Oh, really? So today I can train up and skill a GUARANTEED unwatchlisted cyno alt in seconds using plex, can I? Because once this goes live, I can do that. And I absolutely 100% ******* guarantee EVERY super pilot will do this. There are far too many horrible offshoots to this specific implementation and furthermore it is caught in the paradox of being either ruthlessly exploitable by the old guard - or utterly worthless to newbeans. I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one. Of course there is a difference, I was just answering within the context of Jared Khanar's post. (In which he was talking about SP gained in the space of a year) And yes, of course there are ways to potentially abuse this system. That's why the debate should be about reducing these abuses rather than outright writing it off as a bad idea. There are no limitations in existence which will make this an acceptable idea once you look beyond the highlights and into the detail. The very notion of this being both workable whilst unabusable is a perfect paradox.
I don't believe in an unsolvable problem. Now I think about it too, I don't see the Cyno alt "problem" as an issue. It already wouldn't take long to fill every spare character slot I own with Cyno alts. It's going to take even less time after the starting skills changes. At this point we are already pissing into the wind when it comes to complaining about the ease of making cyno alts.
(Also who the funk in the right mind is going to spend the obviously high amount of ISK or -ú required to actually make all these instant cyno alts? These SP injections won't come cheap and if someone wants to empty their warchest into such a blatant waste of ISK then I say let em get on with it.) |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
157
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:24:46 -
[3743] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Maekchu wrote:afkalt wrote:Rawthorm wrote:No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span. Oh, really? So today I can train up and skill a GUARANTEED unwatchlisted cyno alt in seconds using plex, can I? Because once this goes live, I can do that. And I absolutely 100% ******* guarantee EVERY super pilot will do this. There are far too many horrible offshoots to this specific implementation and furthermore it is caught in the paradox of being either ruthlessly exploitable by the old guard - or utterly worthless to newbeans. I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one. Well, this can already be done with the character bazaar. I don't think this is an issue with SP, but with cyno ships. So how could cyno ships be balanced in order to work around this issue? Maybe some form of animation or graphic (like the guns fitted on your ship), that you can see before you engage someone and not only after they've deployed the cyno? What? Do you even know what supers use cyno alts for and why they are watch listed? Not to mention the idea of using the bazaar is a) slow and b) reliant on supply. As far as I understand, it's for moving your caps safely, right? But yeah, I was looking at it from the scenario of people dropping caps on cruisers fleest in lowsec.
Anyway, as said and as you've already confirmed. It can still be done with the bazaar. Although, very clunky and slow, is still possible.
So again, the issue is just with cap movement and how is works in the game. Something that might be addressed in the upcoming cap rebalance. Anyway, it still is not an issue that is a direct consequence of the proposed change. The issue are caps.
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2184
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:28:20 -
[3744] - Quote
I'm sure super pilots would trust cyno toons from the bazaar not to be watchlisted by PL. Yup. I mean, that assumes it's not a PL player selling it for a set up anyway.
Besides, there are a rash of other nasties with this and all to solve what problem again? |
Mag's
the united
20594
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:30:25 -
[3745] - Quote
afkalt wrote:I'm sure super pilots would trust cyno toons from the bazaar not to be watchlisted by PL. Yup. I mean, that assumes it's not a PL player selling it for a set up anyway.
Besides, there are a rash of other nasties with this and all to solve what problem again? Well CCP Rise simply didn't like the name Kil2, what other reason does he need?
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
431
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:32:34 -
[3746] - Quote
CCP Quant wrote:Another angle on this is the fact that we're on a path of making everything in EVE trade'able, even skillpoints. They are on path...the more I dig up about it the more I see how cluster**** it will be. They have a path... And to think they have something like roleplayers in EvE at eve vegas.... Now seriously, ETA when? Time is money friends
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
1665
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:33:07 -
[3747] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:[quote=Daniela Doran]We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.
Then maybe let older players have a go at the SP trough as well? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right?
Prestige is nice, but it doesn't put a sleipnir or chimera on my table.
|
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
157
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:35:07 -
[3748] - Quote
afkalt wrote:I'm sure super pilots would trust cyno toons from the bazaar not to be watchlisted by PL. Yup. I mean, that assumes it's not a PL player selling it for a set up anyway.
Besides, there are a rash of other nasties with this and all to solve what problem again? Your and Tippia's argument is actually one of the more valid ones, in this sea of nonsense these past pages have been.
I think you guys have a point and the feature needs to be balanced around this. Either that, or some other major balance changes in the game needs to be made, so instantly trained alts could not be an issue.
However, there is a problem with retaining new players. And how the skill queue is a bad mechanic that does not promote active play. Maybe this is not the solution, but I commend CCP for trying to solve this issue and proposing such a controversial change to how skills are trained.
But it is also very naive to say there does not exist a problem. Basically, the skill queue and its afk promoting properties is the problem, and something drastic needs to happen with EvE in order to attract new players and promote what EvE is really about. Being actively out in space, creating interaction between players and not sitting in a station ship spinning, waiting for a digital bar to fill up.
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:36:16 -
[3749] - Quote
Mag's wrote:afkalt wrote:I'm sure super pilots would trust cyno toons from the bazaar not to be watchlisted by PL. Yup. I mean, that assumes it's not a PL player selling it for a set up anyway.
Besides, there are a rash of other nasties with this and all to solve what problem again? Well CCP Rise simply didn't like the name Kil2, what other reason does he need? Barely any fresh characters realize there's an option through the character bazaar. If CCP could figure out a method of improving gameplay accessibility by granulating that on the in-game market --
Should they make more money off of SP? It's a system that ruins the potential of the game, sets up payments on top of sub payments, and cheapens the role-playing experience. The game could just as well thrive through being a true sandbox. That's where the referral and sustain potential is.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
431
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:36:19 -
[3750] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Well CCP Rise simply didn't like the name Kil2, what other reason does he need? Nah, he wanted to fly geddon instead of ceptor and in a meantime he wants:
CCP RIse wrote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
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Raz Xym
Speaker for the Dead Get Off My Lawn
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:36:29 -
[3751] - Quote
Since you can already just buy a character from the bazaar, I am willing to go along with this idea. I know I don't like the feel of it, at first glance it seems too pay2win. But I am not sure you can pay to win in this game. 90% of the time anyone who tries this ends up paying to lose.
plus: - may help with new player retention - allows vets to shed those embarrassing mining skills - works within the game - less issues than buying characters (history, cumbersome, name, etc)
I am glad they are putting out the feelers real early on this feature. I am sure there are many in's and out's that need to be thought about. I would even put in a monthly/weekly limit on the numbers of packs/skill points one can gain via this mechanism. Introduce it slowly with throttles. Perhaps open it up later once everyone is comfortable how it is going. |
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:37:14 -
[3752] - Quote
afkalt wrote:This removes any/all delays on having a functional anonymous alt being created with a specific purpose. If you can't see the holes in that...well /me shrugs
not quite, you still can't pick where your character is created. that's a pretty big problem for most of the scenarios you illustrated there.
if you need it now, jumping 50 jumps to where you need it is hardly "instant". |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2184
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:42:06 -
[3753] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:afkalt wrote:I'm sure super pilots would trust cyno toons from the bazaar not to be watchlisted by PL. Yup. I mean, that assumes it's not a PL player selling it for a set up anyway.
Besides, there are a rash of other nasties with this and all to solve what problem again? Your and Tippia's argument is actually one of the more valid ones, in this sea of nonsense these past pages have been. I think you guys have a point and the feature needs to be balanced around this. Either that, or some other major balance changes in the game needs to be made, so instantly trained alts could not be an issue. However, there is a problem with retaining new players. And how the skill queue is a bad mechanic that does not promote active play. Maybe this is not the solution, but I commend CCP for trying to solve this issue and proposing such a controversial change to how skills are trained. But it is also very naive to say there does not exist a problem. Basically, the skill queue and its afk promoting properties is the problem, and something drastic needs to happen with EvE in order to attract new players and promote what EvE is really about. Being actively out in space, creating interaction between players and not sitting in a station ship spinning, waiting for a digital bar to fill up.
But you see that is the very problem at hand and why I refer to it as a paradox.
I don't think anyone is (seriously) suggesting vets will use this on mains (save for T3 skill point loss), but what we WILL do is ruthlessly recycle and create instant, tailor made, anonymous alts. Now - for this to be impossible for us yet somehow work for a newbean is....essentially unsolvable.
Unless (and this just hit me) the skill points only go to the character on the account with the highest skill points irrespective of who uses the packet - like current rewards. Then you would really tighten up on vet abuse - but I don't think they're going down this route (and it's is probably mechanically improbable).
In summary without massive restrictions (like mentioned) if these packets are in any way, shape or form accessible and useful for the newbros it is doomed to abuse by people like me. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2184
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:43:01 -
[3754] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:This removes any/all delays on having a functional anonymous alt being created with a specific purpose. If you can't see the holes in that...well /me shrugs not quite, you still can't pick where your character is created. that's a pretty big problem for most of the scenarios you illustrated there. if you need it now, jumping 50 jumps to where you need it is hardly "instant".
New toon - get's a remote clone reset. Hello death clone. |
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:44:20 -
[3755] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:This removes any/all delays on having a functional anonymous alt being created with a specific purpose. If you can't see the holes in that...well /me shrugs not quite, you still can't pick where your character is created. that's a pretty big problem for most of the scenarios you illustrated there. if you need it now, jumping 50 jumps to where you need it is hardly "instant". New toon - get's a remote clone reset. Hello death clone.
you only play in 1 system in eve, your corp's home system? also, that requires some one to be online to invite them to your corp - is that person always online?
edit: actually am i misunderstanding how that works? i've not looked at it since it was changed a few months ago. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:45:09 -
[3756] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:[quote=Daniela Doran]We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want. Then maybe let older players have a go at the SP trough as well? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right? Prestige is nice, but it doesn't put a sleipnir or chimera on my table. Vets could benefit from that by creating new perfect toon by stripping unnecessary SP from main to him or just buy injectors from the market. |
Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
1665
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:51:38 -
[3757] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Seven Koskanaiken wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:[quote=Daniela Doran]We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want. Then maybe let older players have a go at the SP trough as well? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right? Prestige is nice, but it doesn't put a sleipnir or chimera on my table. Vets could benefit from that by creating new perfect toon by stripping unnecessary SP from main to him or just buy injectors from the market.
Yeh, and?
That's what comes from a system where "players trade the resources they have for the resources they want."
In a trading system everyone should be allowed to trade. Otherwise the above CCP statement is just meaningless lip service. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:54:31 -
[3758] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:General Lootit wrote:Seven Koskanaiken wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:[quote=Daniela Doran]We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want. Then maybe let older players have a go at the SP trough as well? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right? Prestige is nice, but it doesn't put a sleipnir or chimera on my table. Vets could benefit from that by creating new perfect toon by stripping unnecessary SP from main to him or just buy injectors from the market. Yeh, and? That's what comes from a system where "players trade the resources they have for the resources they want." In a trading system everyone should be allowed to trade. Otherwise the above CCP statement is just meaningless lip service. Why not take that even further? Remove SP, so players can really trade the resources they would.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2184
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:56:47 -
[3759] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:This removes any/all delays on having a functional anonymous alt being created with a specific purpose. If you can't see the holes in that...well /me shrugs not quite, you still can't pick where your character is created. that's a pretty big problem for most of the scenarios you illustrated there. if you need it now, jumping 50 jumps to where you need it is hardly "instant". New toon - get's a remote clone reset. Hello death clone. you only play in 1 system in eve, your corp's home system? also, that requires some one to be online to invite them to your corp - is that person always online? edit: actually am i misunderstanding how that works? i've not looked at it since it was changed a few months ago.
Honestly, I can't remember. Pretty sure you can just do it any old place when it comes to NPC space. Plus the newbie systems are pretty known, you can pick the right race to get into the zip code.
Although mainly my use of instant was relative to today. Perhaps it should be "almost instant". Currently it is what? 3 daysish to churn a cyno alt out? Tomorrow I can do that (effectively) instantly.
My main concern always was and remains - there are far, far too many bad things to come from this and no clear and compelling benefits to outweigh these pitfalls.
We've not even tested the extreme edge cases, there are players out there far more devious than I whom probably have rafts of plans to abuse these features.
As I said the only, ONLY way I can see really reigning in abuse potential is limiting the skills to go onto the highest skilled toon on the account. Unless a vet makes a new account with the specific aim of this (far less likely than using unused slots on existing ones) then.....then it becomes viable. imo. |
Serina Ieri
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:59:10 -
[3760] - Quote
Hendrick Tallardar wrote:As a person who helps run a new player focused alliance, this is a great idea albeit in need of some number tweaking and make some provisions to prevent abuse. Overall a solid plan to help new players catch up to veterans in terms of skillpoints.
Eve isn't about catching up. This isn't WOW. |
|
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:01:54 -
[3761] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:This removes any/all delays on having a functional anonymous alt being created with a specific purpose. If you can't see the holes in that...well /me shrugs not quite, you still can't pick where your character is created. that's a pretty big problem for most of the scenarios you illustrated there. if you need it now, jumping 50 jumps to where you need it is hardly "instant". New toon - get's a remote clone reset. Hello death clone. you only play in 1 system in eve, your corp's home system? also, that requires some one to be online to invite them to your corp - is that person always online? edit: actually am i misunderstanding how that works? i've not looked at it since it was changed a few months ago. Honestly, I can't remember. Pretty sure you can just do it any old place when it comes to NPC space. Plus the newbie systems are pretty known, you can pick the right race to get into the zip code. Although mainly my use of instant was relative to today. Perhaps it should be "almost instant". Currently it is what? 3 daysish to churn a cyno alt out? Tomorrow I can do that (effectively) instantly. My main concern always was and remains - there are far, far too many bad things to come from this and no clear and compelling benefits to outweigh these pitfalls. We've not even tested the extreme edge cases, there are players out there far more devious than I, who probably have rafts of plans to abuse these features. As I said the only, ONLY way I can see really reigning in abuse potential is limiting the skills to go onto the highest skilled toon on the account. Unless a vet makes a new account with the specific aim of this (far less likely than using unused slots on existing ones) then.....then it becomes viable. imo.
could always just drop it in as a training speed booster. 500,000 SP extracted to make the next 1,000,000 train at twice the speed (no net gain as you'd have already trained half of those anyway), appropriate diminishing returns etc.
allows people to catch up without "instant" things happening. |
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:02:40 -
[3762] - Quote
Serina Ieri wrote:Hendrick Tallardar wrote:As a person who helps run a new player focused alliance, this is a great idea albeit in need of some number tweaking and make some provisions to prevent abuse. Overall a solid plan to help new players catch up to veterans in terms of skillpoints. Eve isn't about catching up. This isn't WOW.
so eve is having about an ever increasing gulf between long time players and new players?
why is that a good thing? |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12748
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:02:52 -
[3763] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:
(Also who the funk in the right mind is going to spend the obviously high amount of ISK or -ú required to actually make all these instant cyno alts? These SP injections won't come cheap and if someone wants to empty their warchest into such a blatant waste of ISK then I say let em get on with it.)
CCP once believed that Titans and Super Carriers would be balanced by their outrageous cost. You should go back and ask them how well that worked out for them.
You do know that we play a game were people can make billions of isk per day in FRIGATE SIZED SHIPS in a very short period of time, right? And you know some people have 12 years of accumulated wealth now? Right? |
Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
1665
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:04:12 -
[3764] - Quote
Dror wrote:Why not take that even further? Remove SP, so players can really trade the resources they would.
Sure, but I'm working with what's on offer here.
With SP trading "fitting SP to a clone" becomes a similar task to fitting modules to a ship. Obviously those with knowledge will come out of top.
No one says "but allowing vets to buy whatever mods they want will give them an advantage" or "they can just use their isk to fit the ship perfectly!" because it's such a stupidly obvious point. Obviously they know not to mix guns, dual tank or fit 3 MWDs unlike the newbie they may fight. No one proposes a progressive tax on the mods market to hinder vets, so why one on SP market? |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Carpe Noctem. Pandemic Legion
2567
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:11:12 -
[3765] - Quote
Is now a bad time to say I think all new subs should get 10m SP to allocate on day one as they see fit, to help get over that initial SP grind ballache?
Would you like to know more?
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:11:54 -
[3766] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Serina Ieri wrote:Hendrick Tallardar wrote:As a person who helps run a new player focused alliance, this is a great idea albeit in need of some number tweaking and make some provisions to prevent abuse. Overall a solid plan to help new players catch up to veterans in terms of skillpoints. Eve isn't about catching up. This isn't WOW. so eve is having about an ever increasing gulf between long time players and new players? why is that a good thing?
Didnt seem to bother you about it a few hours ago, You just spent the past 3 days / 170 pages on how wonderful it will be.
|
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
60
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:12:12 -
[3767] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Rawthorm wrote:
(Also who the funk in the right mind is going to spend the obviously high amount of ISK or -ú required to actually make all these instant cyno alts? These SP injections won't come cheap and if someone wants to empty their warchest into such a blatant waste of ISK then I say let em get on with it.)
CCP once believed that Titans and Super Carriers would be balanced by their outrageous cost. You should go back and ask them how well that worked out for them. You do know that we play a game were people can make billions of isk per day in FRIGATE SIZED SHIPS in a very short period of time, right? And you know some people have 12 years of accumulated wealth now? Right?
I agree on the Titan/Super front. After all it was my old 5 man corp that managed to crank out a Nyx when they were released while alliances of the time were still scratching their balls, so I am well aware that cost is a poor prohibitor in eve.
That being said, Cyno alts ain't no Super. Brute force your way through the cost of a Super and you have something to show for it. Wasting money on Cyno alts is a lot of wasted ISK for very very little benefit. The cost to benefit ratio is significantly different. |
Serina Ieri
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:13:22 -
[3768] - Quote
Your response indicates that you are unfortunately missing the beauty that has been Eve Online. A new player who wisely spends their skill points and educates themselves on what their initial focus will be can be extremely effective. They will also appreciate the complexity and vastness of the game as they continue to progress through their skills of choice - all the while learning the game.
The quick win, max level mindset of today is not what this game was designed for.
I'm hoping CCP stays true to its roots.
Take care. |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
530
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:15:06 -
[3769] - Quote
While it may be a fundamental shift in the way people view Characters and SP, the more I think about it the more I like the idea.
A couple of my favorite positives:
It finally gives EVE a SP Sink other than Characters who biomass. People won't need to wait several years to have the SP needed to compete in tournament gameplay without a large SP handicap.
In my dream world hopefully there will be a natural sink when SP is extracted (50k per extraction?) and the AUR price is high enough to put it at something like 2k isk per SP once the market balances out. Additionally, I think the suggestions on a yearly cap for number of extractions/injections has some merit.
- Than |
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:17:48 -
[3770] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Serina Ieri wrote:Hendrick Tallardar wrote:As a person who helps run a new player focused alliance, this is a great idea albeit in need of some number tweaking and make some provisions to prevent abuse. Overall a solid plan to help new players catch up to veterans in terms of skillpoints. Eve isn't about catching up. This isn't WOW. so eve is having about an ever increasing gulf between long time players and new players? why is that a good thing? Didnt seem to bother you about it a few hours ago, You just spent the past 3 days / 170 pages on how wonderful it will be.
wrong. |
|
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
60
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:18:11 -
[3771] - Quote
On a slightly different and more constructive note, what about an idea of applying a jump fatigue-esque mechanism to these SP injections rather than the diminishing returns? Want to use them as a one off to get into that ship you've always wanted, go nuts. Keep jabbing yourself like a SP crazed junkie then your going to have to wait a very long time before you can do it again as penance for those initial few jumps in SP.
1st Injection, 24 hours until you can use another with a 4 week extended timer. Use another in that 4 week window and your first timer for your second injection is suddenly a week. Do it again and its now a month plus. A few injections later you've locked yourself out of using this feature for a year or more. The only abuse this leaves is a real low SP alts, which lets face it with the starting player boosts, implants and accelerators was never a big wait to begin with. |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
1039
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:18:28 -
[3772] - Quote
Cloud the issue all you want. This should be the end of the discussion:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Buying items with plex and buying SP with it is not equal.
Buying a character is totally different than opening the market and buying Amarr BS 5 and Large Energy Turret 5.
Not today spaghetti.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
127
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:19:54 -
[3773] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one. Malcanis' law requires the suggestion to be targeted at new players - which this is not.
But you have already said that it is targeted at everyone, new players included? Make up your mind please :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
60
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:21:39 -
[3774] - Quote
Sexy Cakes wrote:Cloud the issue all you want. This should be the end of the discussion: Jeremiah Saken wrote:Buying items with plex and buying SP with it is not equal. Buying a character is totally different than opening the market and buying Amarr BS 5 and Large Energy Turret 5.
Yea, with a character purchase I get a lot more bang for my buck. That Amarr BS 5 and Large Energy Turret 5 comes with another 100+ skills to back it up, all for the same click of a button. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:26:46 -
[3775] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Dror wrote:Why not take that even further? Remove SP, so players can really trade the resources they would. Sure, but I'm working with what's on offer here. With SP trading "fitting SP to a clone" becomes a similar task to fitting modules to a ship. Obviously those with knowledge will come out of top. No one says "but allowing vets to buy whatever mods they want will give them an advantage" or "they can just use their isk to fit the ship perfectly!" because it's such a stupidly obvious point. Obviously they know not to mix guns, dual tank or fit 3 MWDs unlike the newbie they may fight. No one proposes a progressive tax on the mods market to hinder vets, so why one on SP market? That change not about humiliating vets but about helping newbie to test more activities in shorter time. So they could choose their specialization which they like. Don't be jealous - you already have huge advantage. |
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:28:00 -
[3776] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one. Malcanis' law requires the suggestion to be targeted at new players - which this is not. But you have already said that it is targeted at everyone, new players included? Make up your mind please :D
to be fair, i'm not sure it matters.
nobody seems to be able to make their mind up about it.
"vets will abuse it cos they're rich" "vets won't abuse it because you get bugger all sp back"
"Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."
now, we're getting down to semantics but i interpret that to mean things that were designed for new players specifically as it says "on behalf of". *shrug* |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:33:28 -
[3777] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Dror wrote:Why not take that even further? Remove SP, so players can really trade the resources they would. Sure, but I'm working with what's on offer here. With SP trading "fitting SP to a clone" becomes a similar task to fitting modules to a ship. Obviously those with knowledge will come out of top. No one says "but allowing vets to buy whatever mods they want will give them an advantage" or "they can just use their isk to fit the ship perfectly!" because it's such a stupidly obvious point. Obviously they know not to mix guns, dual tank or fit 3 MWDs unlike the newbie they may fight. No one proposes a progressive tax on the mods market to hinder vets, so why one on SP market? That's what SP already is -- a tax.. on content.
The core of such a redesign is increased retention. That's the providence, not necessarily SP as some awesome commodity.
This announcement still has the problem of vet abuse for any specific alt, and that being nerfed comes with the cost of helping fresh characters as much.. or at the cost of being interesting for vets at all. Then is the issue of actually increasing sustain, because progression is still just payments on top of more.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Dave Stark
7614
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:34:31 -
[3778] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Seems I am getting better at "Dave Stark" posting, now you are even trying to provide meaningful answer :D
silly questions, silly answers... ;) |
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1279
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:38:03 -
[3779] - Quote
I have removed some crap, but admittedly, not all the crap. I will continue working towards this goal. Please assist me by following our forum rules.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9335
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:40:35 -
[3780] - Quote
Dynamus Deckerman wrote:Big Lynx wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:[ Mr Epeen Isn't that brutally exhausting to type that Mr Epeen below every single stupid post?!? Some people just think they're just to cool that they got to do something like that to make you believe that they're so cool when they're not. EDIT: Mr. Epeen, I don't think you're cool at all, so you can stop doing that.
I'm glad that I could be of assistance in helping you join the community. You have been subbed since late 2014 and thanks to me you have now made your very first contribution to the forums.
I feel kind of special when things like this happen.
Welcome to EVE, good citizen.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
|
Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
1667
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 15:59:52 -
[3781] - Quote
Quote:not necessarily SP as some awesome commodity.
Umm except that exactly what...
CCP Terminus wrote:We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.
...implies SP will be.
Looks like someone at CCP needs to make up their minds about what exactly this is before releasing devblogs. |
Jared Khanar
42
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 16:02:10 -
[3782] - Quote
Lets talk also about the social effects this feature could have, instead of focusing on payment and the pure mechanic. If it has been mentioned before - well heres another one repeating it :)
The Training Queue is in fact the most beautiful and elegant feature in eve. All these "problems" people are complaining about are imo. the needed core of this game.
Not beeing able to skill everything you want in a short time forces players to whisely specialize their characters and forces them to work together. Maybe i need someone who processes my ore, hauls my assets, produces my ships and so on.
The introduction of alts and multicharactertraining enabled players to refuse cooperation. Why should i work together with someone else, dividing the income, if it-¦s simply possible to train an alt that does exactly what i need, instead of this other person. (High Plex prices are only further adding to this - it-¦s simply not economical to do so, depending on where you live in the universe.) Also the character bazaar has added to this. ofcourse there is a cap in the amount of alts one is able to sub, the offered chars on the bazaar, it softens this problem a bit.
if we are allowed to buy sp, create alts in the specific way we need them within a few clicks, this problem will potentially only increase. The imo skyrocketing plex after introduction will also add to this.
I have the feeling that the calls for sp transfers have it-¦s root in the selfish greed for more, not to be dependend on others, not beeing forced to cooperate with others that can do something oneself doesn-¦t.
Isn-¦t it so that players, socialising with others are most likely to stay, while others, playing S.ingle P.layer O.nline are more likely to quit?
Isn-¦t this furthermore forcing eve to become more the game of alts than it is now?
And if theres a (high) chance that something like this is happening - why is ccp introducing it, although they tell us that the opposite is needed for a healthy game: cooperating players? |
Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
1668
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 16:07:03 -
[3783] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:That change not about humiliating vets but about helping newbie to test more activities in shorter time. So they could choose their specialization which they like. Don't be jealous - you already have huge advantage.
So...just give them more starter SP?
This thing just looks like an reasonable attempt to make things easier for newbies (good, sure, whatever) but then goes completely off the rails by haphazardly trying to pay lip service the economy, then further mangling it with diminishing returns and whatnot. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 16:07:27 -
[3784] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Quote:not necessarily SP as some awesome commodity. Umm except that exactly what... CCP Terminus wrote:We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want. ...implies SP will be. Looks like someone at CCP needs to make up their minds about what exactly this is before releasing devblogs. You're the one challenging it as "an awesome commodity" because it's so restricted for vets. I'm mentioning that it also has a lot of benefits for rich vets and their alts; but reducing that also devalues the market for potential fresh characters altogether.
So, do you have a further point? The whole of this redesign idea is obviously to increase fresh subs, and it's obviously about SP limiting progression (there's a lot more to this discussion, like science research, motivation, and monetization philosophies). So, how about actually fixing the problem?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
1668
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 16:12:31 -
[3785] - Quote
Dror wrote:Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Quote:not necessarily SP as some awesome commodity. Umm except that exactly what... CCP Terminus wrote:We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want. ...implies SP will be. Looks like someone at CCP needs to make up their minds about what exactly this is before releasing devblogs. So, do you have a further point? The whole of this redesign idea is obviously to increase fresh subs, and it's obviously about SP limiting progression (there's a lot more to this discussion, like science research, motivation, and monetization philosophies). So, how about actually fixing the problem?
Hi. You seem to have confused me with a dev, or a CSM, or anyone who has some actual power of influence over design decisions, rather than just a player giving an opinion on what's actually been offered..? |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
158
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 16:15:32 -
[3786] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote: So...just give them more starter SP?
Newbies already got a small increase in SP, and that negligible change alone drew out hordes of whiners and entitled players.
Just imagine the tears, if new characters would start at 10M SP.
Jared Khanar wrote: The Training Queue is in fact the most beautiful and elegant feature in eve. All these "problems" people are complaining about are imo. the needed core of this game.
This can be argued. The way I see it, and how I've argued in my previous posts. The skill queue is a bad mechanic, that promotes the wrong things in EvE.
EvE is about being being out in space, actively working together with people towards a common goal. Telling people, that they need to afk train X amount of SP before they can join, is just not a great mechanic. It is also very hard to sell to newer players.
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Masao Kurata
Perkone Caldari State
286
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 16:17:10 -
[3787] - Quote
So I was thinking about this and came to some conclusions I have confidence in.
- SP is plentiful, lots of alts have reached diminishing returns on training and many more are discarded every month. The trading price for skill packets will be very close to skill extractors no matter how much aurum a skill extractor costs, there is no amount too high that people will not buy and use these for skill points that would otherwise be wasted.
- This service is in direct competition with multiple character training and if CCP introduce it they need to make sure they don't lose overall revenue because of the drop in MCT.
- CCP has to set the aurum price for a skill extractor high enough that multiple character training is always cheaper per SP to not lose revenue, making skill packets a convenience product. Multiple character training gives about 1.5M SP for 3500 AUR or directly for 1 PLEX.
- The aurum price will be set to at least 1500 AUR per skill extractor. Taking aurum purchase amounts into account, this would probably actually track PLEX at about 40-50% of its value. If the aurum price is set above 2000 AUR, it will track disproportionately higher. Skill packets will settle at no more than 15% (I am inclined to think 10%) higher than skill extractors.
EDIT: Thinking about the, the 5M SP barrier for skill extractors may mean that tradable SP isn't as plentiful as I worry, which means that the SP component of the value of skill packets would be higher and thus that they don't need to be made more expensive in AUR than the training time to get the same SP as they extract. I am full of crap. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9338
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 16:17:58 -
[3788] - Quote
Half the 'vets' in this game are purchased characters. I know. I (and other regulars in the CB) sold the characters to them.
To see them now whining in righteous indignation about purchasing SP in a less convoluted way is priceless.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 16:20:46 -
[3789] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Dror wrote:Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Quote:not necessarily SP as some awesome commodity. Umm except that exactly what... CCP Terminus wrote:We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want. ...implies SP will be. Looks like someone at CCP needs to make up their minds about what exactly this is before releasing devblogs. So, do you have a further point? The whole of this redesign idea is obviously to increase fresh subs, and it's obviously about SP limiting progression (there's a lot more to this discussion, like science research, motivation, and monetization philosophies). So, how about actually fixing the problem? Hi. You seem to have confused me with a dev, or a CSM, or anyone who has some actual power of influence over design decisions, rather than just a player giving an opinion on what's actually been offered..? I'm asking -- that if the idea is unimplemented because of the response, or ends up ineffective because of the market.. and how the idea is still asking for money on top of sub fees through reducing gameplay options and effectiveness -- what your input is.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
1669
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 16:22:00 -
[3790] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Seven Koskanaiken wrote: So...just give them more starter SP?
Newbies already got a small increase in SP, and that negligible change alone drew out hordes of whiners and entitled players. Just imagine the tears, if new characters would start at 10M SP.
Well, yea. They're afraid to do that, they're afraid to put SP straight up in the NEX store, so they attempt to achieve the same ends, by awkwardly crowbarring it into the economy so they can BS and say "hey, it's still EVE, still the player economy yada yada" (even though this one item follows different rules to every other item in the same economy, but, hey it's still the same guys, you can trade your time! empires are losing their control etc etc)
Although going by how many have lapped it up, I guess, they were right to do so. |
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AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
283
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 16:27:54 -
[3791] - Quote
Just heard about this. I guess I'm a LITTLE late to the party.
I'm not averse to giving newbros SOME way to skill faster, but this idea is way too extreme and game-breaking.
I'd tepidly support (or at least could live with) something more like this:
0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 10 million skillpoints = 450,000 unallocated skillpoints added 10-15 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 15-20 million skillpoints = 350,000 unallocated skillpoints added 20-25 million skillpoints = 300,000 unallocated skillpoints added 25-30 million skillpoints = 250,000 unallocated skillpoints added 30-35 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added 35-40 million skillpoints = 150,000 unallocated skillpoints added 40-45 million skillpoints = 100,000 unallocated skillpoints added 45-50 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 50 million skillpoints = not eligible for this program
Give people an option to accelerate the development of a DECENT char, fine. But no pay 2 win for ELITE char development, please. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9338
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 16:43:07 -
[3792] - Quote
AkJon Ferguson wrote:Just heard about this. I guess I'm a LITTLE late to the party.
I'm not averse to giving newbros SOME way to skill faster, but this idea is way too extreme and game-breaking.
I'd tepidly support (or at least could live with) something more like this:
0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 10 million skillpoints = 450,000 unallocated skillpoints added 10-15 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 15-20 million skillpoints = 350,000 unallocated skillpoints added 20-25 million skillpoints = 300,000 unallocated skillpoints added 25-30 million skillpoints = 250,000 unallocated skillpoints added 30-35 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added 35-40 million skillpoints = 150,000 unallocated skillpoints added 40-45 million skillpoints = 100,000 unallocated skillpoints added 45-50 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 50 million skillpoints = not eligible for this program
Give people an option to accelerate the development of a DECENT char, fine. But no pay 2 win for ELITE char development, please. You gots a real purdy mouth, boy.
No for a quick answer to your query.
Under the current proposal:
People making characters to sell won't be buying SP packs. No profit. Vets won't be buying SP packs. Too expensive. Mid level players won't be buying SP packs. Pre-made characters from the bazaar are a better deal. New players may buy some for an initial boost to get into something other than a T1 tackler in a reasonable time.
The sky is not falling. The game is not dying. It's just another thing that will be accepted into the general community as people realize that none of the doom and gloom comes to pass.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 16:45:13 -
[3793] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:General Lootit wrote:That change not about humiliating vets but about helping newbie to test more activities in shorter time. So they could choose their specialization which they like. Don't be jealous - you already have huge advantage. So...just give them more starter SP? This thing just looks like an reasonable attempt to make things easier for newbies (good, sure, whatever) but then goes completely off the rails by haphazardly trying to pay lip service the economy, then further mangling it with diminishing returns and whatnot. No, thanks. originally purpose is good enough. Main issue of free starting SP thats it's free. It doesn't encourage to participate in game and just "makes life of newbie easire". I talked about not easier but shorter in terms of time. |
Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
1670
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 16:50:28 -
[3794] - Quote
AkJon Ferguson wrote:0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 10 million skillpoints = 450,000 unallocated skillpoints added 10-15 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 15-20 million skillpoints = 350,000 unallocated skillpoints added 20-25 million skillpoints = 300,000 unallocated skillpoints added 25-30 million skillpoints = 250,000 unallocated skillpoints added 30-35 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added 35-40 million skillpoints = 150,000 unallocated skillpoints added 40-45 million skillpoints = 100,000 unallocated skillpoints added 45-50 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 50 million skillpoints = not eligible for this program .
Just looking at this the worst off will be 30-45mil. At that point you feel like you've been playing forever, yet even a couple of doctrine changes can leave you with only a ceptor to bring to fleets.
Everyone far behind you skips the early grind, everyone far ahead is already in their rounded characters and couldn't care less. If I was at 35mil and this scheme goes on TQ, I'd be seriously pissed. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
438
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 17:22:32 -
[3795] - Quote
Just a thought. CCP talking about removing attributes and implants from the game, I wonder if this proposal is not something that may replace them.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Dave Stark
7615
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 17:23:52 -
[3796] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Just a thought. CCP talking about removing attributes and implants from the game, I wonder if this proposal is not something that may replace them.
i think they're currently stuck at the "what the hell do we do about learning implants" part. apparently they make up a large portion of mission runner income.
it has been suggested that perhaps the TSEs become an LP item rather than an AUR item to solve that particular problem. |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
442
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 17:28:28 -
[3797] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Mag's wrote:CCP Terminus wrote: Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.
Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal? Nice. Daniela Doran wrote:Yes I also really like to know if this is a done deal? The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision. If it was a done deal we'd have put the dev blog out when it was going to be shipped. The whole point of the dev blog is to gather feedback and assess.
I think people say that because it doesn't seem like you're interested in scrapping this idea regardless of overwhelming negative feedback. It is then assumed that you were planning to go through with this all along and the manner in which you posted the blog was PR stunt. Everyone gets feedback on tweaking things, we assumed you wanted to see if there was interest for this idea. |
Mag's
the united
20598
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 17:47:32 -
[3798] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Half the 'vets' in this game are purchased characters. I know. I (and other regulars in the CB) sold the characters to them. To see them now whining in righteous indignation about purchasing SP in a less convoluted way is priceless. Mr Epeen How many of those purchased vets, have whined in this thread? Or are you suggesting all 50% have?
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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ArmyOfMe
Hull Breach. Outnumbered.
493
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 17:52:45 -
[3799] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:Mag's wrote:CCP Terminus wrote: Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.
Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal? Nice. Daniela Doran wrote:Yes I also really like to know if this is a done deal? The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision. If it was a done deal we'd have put the dev blog out when it was going to be shipped. The whole point of the dev blog is to gather feedback and assess. I think people say that because it doesn't seem like you're interested in scrapping this idea regardless of overwhelming negative feedback. It is then assumed that you were planning to go through with this all along and the manner in which you posted the blog was PR stunt. Everyone gets feedback on tweaking things, we assumed you wanted to see if there was interest for this idea. He doesnt seem to be even willing to talk about the negative feedback in here. I guess he has selective reading trained to 5, or maybe he just bought that skill in a sp pack
QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12753
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 17:53:37 -
[3800] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Mag's wrote:CCP Terminus wrote: Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.
Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal? Nice. Daniela Doran wrote:Yes I also really like to know if this is a done deal? The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision. If it was a done deal we'd have put the dev blog out when it was going to be shipped. The whole point of the dev blog is to gather feedback and assess.
In fairness to CCP, there have been lots of devblogs about things that never came to pass so I don't believe this is a necessarily done deal.
And i get where y'all are coming from Terminus. But I hope y'all understand where many of us are coming from when we say we don't like the idea. It has nothing to do with killing the game or the sky falling. Like other past ideas (like for instance the "perma death" character idea) this one raises alarm bells for some of us, it feels like a well intentioned but ultimately misguided thing that strikes at the core of the game for no good reason, a fix for something that doesn't need fixing since the Character Bazaar works fine already.
Why not just enhance the character bazaar?
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
231
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 17:55:40 -
[3801] - Quote
The more I think about this the more I can think of negative examples of possible side effects. AFK bought up a lot of very good points on how this is really going to open up so many possibilities on the training of alts, eve will become alts online even more so, and they will be one day old alts without any traceable history. I can definitley see why the leaders of PL, goons, and others are so fiercely in favour of this.
Dave this is not going to benefit you at all my friend, and it definitely won't help the new player unless they are willing to splash out loads of real money for PLEX; it will only really benefit the big alliances with loads of ISK to throw around on creating these alts.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
445
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 17:57:04 -
[3802] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: Very good point.
CCP has squandered the revenues they made from Eve on other non-profitable ventures as stated in the post above. And now in order to compensate for those losses they're trying to dig in deeper and milk their only bread winner even further??
CCP is a company, not a product and it is the goal of any company to outlive any one product they create. If a company relies on a single product for the entirety of their revenue, this is not possible. At some point the product will be replaced, even one as long lived as EVE Online. If that's the only thing making us money, the company collapses at that point and a lot of people lose their jobs. While I don't see EVE going anywhere any time soon, it makes perfect sense to branch out in to other projects, to hedge bets against the future. The current projects in the works like Valkyrie have a lot of promise and hype, while at the same time having a much smaller development budget that EVE does right now. Any losses incurred from past projects are already taken care of. This new feature is not being developed to compensate for them. Speaking of which, there's been quite a few questions as to why the feature is being developed? What players are the target for this feature? I think it's fairly clearly described in the dev blog here: "By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether youGÇÖre an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you donGÇÖt use any more, a clever new player looking to invest your fortune into your character, a Corp leader trying to move everyone into a new doctrine or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly ArmageddonGÇÖs than Stilettos, this feature has you covered. This all fits nicely to our overall game design philosophy of giving you control over your experience through cooperation and competition with each other." The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.
I wouldn't count on Valkyrie too much. IMO it's going to fail like the rest of the products unless CCP rediscovers itself and what made it great in the first place. Hype doesn't mean anything if you remember the fact that both walking in stations and dust were very highly anticipated.
This is not to say anything bad about CCP developers. I think you guys have one of the most talented and awesome people on board. The problem lies in the lack of cohesion and identity. CCP in current form reminds me of a ship drifting around the ocean. It has an awesome crew but they all have different ideas where and how the ship should go. The screaming passengers are constantly brawling and demanding it change course this or that way. The captain meanwhile never comes out of his quarters to set the course straight. Nobody remembers anymore why they set sail in the first place and where they were going.
You guys really need to figure out where and why you're going and make it known. It might mean that some people will disagree and bail out but if you stick to your vision and communicate it properly a lot more will join on board. I really hope you guys can figure this out even if it means someone like me will no longer want to be a part of it it would be better for the ship as a whole. in its current state it's not going anywhere. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 17:59:08 -
[3803] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Lets talk also about the social effects this feature could have, instead of focusing on payment and the pure mechanic. If it has been mentioned before - well heres another one repeating it :)
The Training Queue is in fact the most beautiful and elegant feature in eve. All these "problems" people are complaining about are imo. the needed core of this game.
Not beeing able to skill everything you want in a short time forces players to whisely specialize their characters and forces them to work together. Maybe i need someone who processes my ore, hauls my assets, produces my ships and so on.
The introduction of alts and multicharactertraining enabled players to refuse cooperation. Why should i work together with someone else, dividing the income, if it-¦s simply possible to train an alt that does exactly what i need, instead of this other person. (High Plex prices are only further adding to this - it-¦s simply not economical to do so, depending on where you live in the universe.) Also the character bazaar has added to this. ofcourse there is a cap in the amount of alts one is able to sub, the offered chars on the bazaar, it softens this problem a bit.
But i think we all know the negative effects and how eve, it-¦s economy and community is suffering due to this.
if we are allowed to buy sp, create alts in the specific way we need them within a few clicks, this problem will potentially only increase. The imo skyrocketing plex after introduction will also add to this.
I have the feeling that the calls for sp transfers have it-¦s root in the selfish greed for more, not to be dependend on others, not beeing forced to cooperate with others that can do something oneself doesn-¦t. And ofcourse ccp happily tries to deliver cause they are also driven by their own greed for more money, ignoring their own facts and statements.
Isn-¦t it so that players, socialising with others are most likely to stay, while others, playing S.ingle P.layer O.nline are more likely to quit?
Isn-¦t this furthermore forcing eve to become more the game of alts than it is now?
And if theres a (high) chance that something like this is happening - why is ccp introducing it, although they tell us that the opposite is needed for a healthy game: cooperating players? I found post for you in that bloody mess. P.S. Would be much easier to find it if forum had bookmarks of liked posts. |
Dave Stark
7615
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 18:00:21 -
[3804] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Dave this is not going to benefit you at all my friend,
at 50k sp per packet, you're not wrong. :( |
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 18:10:57 -
[3805] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:I can definitley see why the leaders of PL, goons, and others are so fiercely in favour of this.
Exactly what I thought as soon as Elise Randolph went on the charm offensive on reddit and various goons started backing this on the forum.
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9346
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 18:22:52 -
[3806] - Quote
ColdBeauty wrote:Moac Tor wrote:I can definitley see why the leaders of PL, goons, and others are so fiercely in favour of this. Exactly what I thought as soon as Elise Randolph went on the charm offensive on reddit and various goons started backing this on the forum. I've never been accused of pandering to the little bees, but I'm going to do so now.
Of course they're in favor of this. They are one of the largest content creators in the game and one of the corps that has introduced the most new players into the game. This is an amazing recruiting tool for them and the other large alliances.
It will allow them to bring more people in to the game.
How is bringing more people in to the game in any way a negative?
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Fantus
Guido Enterprises
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 18:23:45 -
[3807] - Quote
I'm a 2003 player that stopped playing around 2011 (sporadically in 2012 then I didn't log in until 5 days ago).
I stopped playing regularly back in 2009, but by 2011 I was turned off from EVE for more than a few reasons. I felt that pay to win was going in full effect in EVE. I felt like things were being crammed in to increase quantity instead of quality. Most of all, my personal life changed with kids and work and I don't feel EVE allows a casual game style for those not rich enough to buy fully into it.
Here are the two classes left in EVE (and this is my opinion):
Those that play it almost as a full time job - logging 30+ hours in a week.
Those that have a lot of RL money that can buy PLEX to get in game ISK.
By 2011, I felt the game was exploiting the player base even more with AUR and the Character Bazaar, and an exorbitant amount to transfer characters from account to account.
Most of all CCP seemed to loose sight of what made the game great:
Exploration PvP Community Driven Content
I understand that CCP set their sights pretty high (Dust integration, Station walking, etc., expanded planetary systems), however in that process the changes have been a mixed bag or complete failures in some cases.
I think skill trading is bad. I think it further divides the game into the two classes I mentioned. It also changes the dynamics of what I thought was one of the most unique aspects of EVE as an MMO - it's skill system. I would rather see new players start out with 3 or 4 million SP then go and pay CCP and another player to trade them to the account. Make the game a little less grind and more reward so people can get out and fit and fight. Skill Point Trading - It smells of desperation and greed.
I just came back to the game - partly out of curiosity - partly because my life circumstances allow a little more game time. I was hoping maybe CCP was moving away from the divides and the pay to win systems. Instead I find they are embedding them more. I'm not surprised the weekend numbers are about half of what they were when I left the game. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 18:36:33 -
[3808] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:Mag's wrote:CCP Terminus wrote: Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.
Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal? Nice. Daniela Doran wrote:Yes I also really like to know if this is a done deal? The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision. If it was a done deal we'd have put the dev blog out when it was going to be shipped. The whole point of the dev blog is to gather feedback and assess. In fairness to CCP, there have been lots of devblogs about things that never came to pass so I don't believe this is a necessarily done deal. And i get where y'all are coming from Terminus. But I hope y'all understand where many of us are coming from when we say we don't like the idea. It has nothing to do with killing the game or the sky falling. Like other past ideas (like for instance the "perma death" character idea) this one raises alarm bells for some of us, it feels like a well intentioned but ultimately misguided thing that strikes at the core of the game for no good reason, a fix for something that doesn't need fixing since the Character Bazaar works fine already. Why not just enhance the character bazaar? They obviously believe that the progression system is negatively impacting sales. This idea is providing a method of "play to progress" by making it in-game (it's unheard of, for most games, selling characters; and that probably affects throughput) and more modular. It must surely require more than making the character market an in-game feature, because then why wouldn't they just do that?
SP is an awful reward system, for undocking potential, for creativity and exploration, and just for immersion. It's the fresh sub wondering about reprocessing his cool ores.. and instead selling it on the market because his efficiency is low. It's wondering what the margins are on producing ships ..and them being absolutely without profits. There's a deep game beyond SP.
From ancient text: "[Because it's of no greatness finding nothing that you're there for.. nor talking about those finding nothing that they're they're for].. The essentials.. do not consist in the profits of gain, honor, and good name, nor even in the profits of observing moral rules; nor even in the profits of knowledge and insight; but the sure heart's release -- that is the meaning.. that is the essence.." The greatest result of EVE being great is that CCP feels great about it. If the best game EVE can be is without SP, so be it.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 18:40:58 -
[3809] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:This is an amazing recruiting tool for them and the other large alliances. Getting the SP necessary to play the game is an amazing recruiting tool you say?
Oh, if only there were some way for CCP to address that directly instead of hoping 5,000 Goons will build a NPE support system.
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
232
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 18:43:22 -
[3810] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:ColdBeauty wrote:Moac Tor wrote:I can definitley see why the leaders of PL, goons, and others are so fiercely in favour of this. Exactly what I thought as soon as Elise Randolph went on the charm offensive on reddit and various goons started backing this on the forum. ... It will allow them to bring more people in to the game. How is bringing more people in to the game in any way a negative? There is no way they are going to hand out these skill packets to new players, they'll use them primarily for creating alts for various tasks. It is very efficient to use them up to 50mil SP, with 50mil focused in a specific area you can do a hell of a lot.
This will not help new players at all. Like I said the only new players who will benefit are those that can afford to spend loads of real money on purchasing them.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Montecore Qubaal
15 Minute Outliers Novus Dominatum
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 18:45:24 -
[3811] - Quote
It took me awhile but IGÇÖve finally figured out how I feel about this SP trading proposal. I'm against this SP trading scheme because of it's possible negative effects on new players and potential new players. I have two concerns.
My lesser concern is that SP trading makes Eve look even more p2w then it currently does. We, the current Eve players, know that buying skilled characters and buying shiny ships doesn't give you the win but people outside the game, potential new players, don't know this. Looking more p2w will scare away some potential players. ItGÇÖs bad but Eve already looks p2w to outsiders so thatGÇÖs why itGÇÖs a lesser concern to me.
My 2nd and larger concern is that there will be new players who think SP trading is the mechanism by which they "catch up" to veteran players. Maybe thatGÇÖs not what they think exactly but there is potential that new player will come to feel like they need to buy SP to become skilled enough to have fun. I just donGÇÖt like having this possibility in Eve, this game that I love. Getting new players past the new player SP hump (real or imagined) should not involve new ways to spend money because it feels sketchy and makes Eve and CCP look bad. It can make a player feel exploited.
Keep in mind that us veterans perceive things differently then a new player. We know what Eve is about and we know what kind of company CCP is. (IGÇÖve heard stories about bad times but IGÇÖve been playing for 2 years and during that time CCP has been awesome.) Please think about this from the perspective of the new players who are still trying to figure out the game and donGÇÖt yet know how to make ISK. Keep in mind how the community already has to dispel misconceptions that outsiders and new players have about the game. We have to explain that new players can be competitive with low SP. We have to explain how the game is not negatively affected by those spending real money for ISK and characters.
I feel like I didnGÇÖt do a good job explaining my fears and I didnGÇÖt explore solutions but IGÇÖve run out of my time to refine this message. Sorry for this mess.
TL;DR: The NPE needs work. DonGÇÖt fix the NPE by telling new player to spend more real money, it feels dirty. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9346
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 18:47:13 -
[3812] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:This is an amazing recruiting tool for them and the other large alliances. Getting the SP necessary to play the game is an amazing recruiting tool you say? Oh, if only there were some way for CCP to address that directly instead of hoping 5,000 Goons will build a NPE support system. The Goons already have the best NPE system in the game. This will just make it better.
I'm not a fan of them, but I have to give them credit where credit is due. When CCP said, "Here's a sandbox. Go play in it.", the SA community actually did.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 18:49:13 -
[3813] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:ColdBeauty wrote:Moac Tor wrote:I can definitley see why the leaders of PL, goons, and others are so fiercely in favour of this. Exactly what I thought as soon as Elise Randolph went on the charm offensive on reddit and various goons started backing this on the forum. ... It will allow them to bring more people in to the game. How is bringing more people in to the game in any way a negative? There is no way they are going to hand out these skill packets to new players, they'll use them primarily for creating alts for various tasks. It is very efficient to use them up to 50mil SP, with 50mil focused in a specific area you can do a hell of a lot. This will not help new players at all. Like I said the only new players who will benefit are those that can afford to spend loads of real money on purchasing them. How I already said I'm newbie that will benefit from it without any RL money involved. |
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1325
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 18:54:57 -
[3814] - Quote
Lost pages back but this:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:There are already in-game items to help new players called Cerebral Accelerators albeit with severe character age restrictions. Lift the bar a little more on the age that these will work at and add them a bit more to loots\DEDs\Data and\or Relic sites to make them more available. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say give them it as a starter item but link in how to use it and what it's for. There are far better ways to get new guys into ships faster than this.
The best of which is this:
Advanced Cerebral Accelerator
This booster will cease to function for pilots who have been registered for more than 7 days. Bonuses: +17 to all attributes
+17 to ALL attributes. Give that to a new starter from Day 1 or even bump it to +25 to ALL attributes
Benefits: It kicks in from Day 1 Training is amplified so skilling is quicker. They don't skip the content that comes from finding your feet but get to toddle quicker It's free from the start You could seed more so they are available on the market ie new player friendly corps (E-UNI etc) can buy them in Data\Relic\Combat sites or in special mission drops\DED sites\COSMOS It stimulates the economy You still have the choices equal consequences so key to EVE Online Free the dev time required for the -ú-ú-ú for SP and bring the Character Bazaar in-house to the EVE UI
Drawbacks No increase demand for PLEX\Aurum so price doesn't increase You'd have to write a new tutorial on boosters\implants\accelerators or have Aura tell them about the thing that's in their head.
Just some thoughts I'd had. Carry on
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
135
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:04:54 -
[3815] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:The Goons already have the best NPE system in the game. I haven't thrown in with them, so I can't say. I hear their late game is a bit boring though.
I'd just really love to see an EVE which manages to avoid that 'bugger all to do' SP wall. I'd love to think the goonies might do that (and even had a thread to that effect), but it shouldn't be their burden in the first place.
|
darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
75
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:06:13 -
[3816] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:If that doesn't encourage some PvP then what will.
pump all noobs up to all5, let them choose a pvp role/ship (dd, logi, ewar) and throw them into a big team based deathmatch against other noobs when they are one day old. after that, reset their skills and let them find their way in eve.
edit: this is not my idea and not well thought out but i like it \o/
Kinda suits the SP trading discussion (lyrics in description)
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
233
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:07:52 -
[3817] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:ColdBeauty wrote:Moac Tor wrote:I can definitley see why the leaders of PL, goons, and others are so fiercely in favour of this. Exactly what I thought as soon as Elise Randolph went on the charm offensive on reddit and various goons started backing this on the forum. ... It will allow them to bring more people in to the game. How is bringing more people in to the game in any way a negative? There is no way they are going to hand out these skill packets to new players, they'll use them primarily for creating alts for various tasks. It is very efficient to use them up to 50mil SP, with 50mil focused in a specific area you can do a hell of a lot. This will not help new players at all. Like I said the only new players who will benefit are those that can afford to spend loads of real money on purchasing them. How I already said I'm newbie that will benefit from it without any RL money involved. You won't be able to afford them unless you plan on a career in corp theft and scamming. You'll be priced out the market. I've seen it many times, new players coming into the game with wild dreams of being able to PLEX their account and play for free but when reality hits they can barely even scrape together enough to afford their ships let alone a PLEX.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Zenethian
No Poops
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:21:16 -
[3818] - Quote
I sincerely hope that this isn't going to actually happen. This is an absolutely terrible idea. There's so much wrong with it I can't even begin to articulate it; thankfully a lot of people already have, so I won't repeat what they've said.
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3039
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:42:01 -
[3819] - Quote
The single best thing about Eve is the skill system.
Edit, the single best thing about Eve, WAS the skill system.
This is not a signature.
|
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
960
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:43:17 -
[3820] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Mag's wrote:CCP Terminus wrote: Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.
Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal? Nice. Daniela Doran wrote:Yes I also really like to know if this is a done deal? The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision. If it was a done deal we'd have put the dev blog out when it was going to be shipped. The whole point of the dev blog is to gather feedback and assess. It's pretty obvious from where I stand that the possibility of scrapping the proposal entirely is not one you're willing to consider. You want feedback on how to improve it, but it seems you're not interested in addressing arguments as to why you shouldn't do it in the first place. |
|
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3220
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:43:40 -
[3821] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote: Some more data: - Most traded characters are 50 million SP or lower. - A good portion of trades are to newer players (measured by new customers not just new accounts).
This gives some insight to the thinking on the limitations in the dev blog, also with some clever math one could estimate how much the extractors might cost. 2700 * 24 * 30 * 26 = 50,544,000 So it takes 26 PLEX at minimum to get to the 50M SP area plus the 2 PLEX needed to transfer a character would put it to a total of 28 PLEX, at the exchange rate of 3500 Aurum/Plex that would net 98,000 Aurum. With a 5M SP minimum requirement for extraction you would get to extract 45.5M from this character at 500,000 per extractor you would need 91 extractors. 98,000 / 91 = 1076.92 Aurum per extractor.
Now for the other end of the math;
400,000 starting SP up to 5M is efficient so you would need 9 extractors to get to 5M SP the next 45M is only 80% efficient. so you would need 56,250,000 SP worth of SP packets or 113 SP packets. So your total would be 121 SP packets.
PLEX costing about 1.25B @ 26 month of training plus 2 PLEX surcharge you SP would be worth 768.48 ISK/SP plus the estimated 1076.92 Aurum 357,142.86 ISK/Aurum
768.48 * 500,000 = 384,240,000 ISK 357,142.86 * 1076.92 = 384,614,288.79 ISK For an estimated total of 768,854,288.79 ISK per SP packet. 768,854,288.79 * 121 = 93B 93B / 1,250,000,000 = 74.4 75 PLEX at the best price of $17.5 per PLEX would cost $1312.5
Highlights
- About 1000 Aurum per Extractor
- 121 SP Packets for a 50M SP player
- Estimated 769m ISK per SP packet
- $1312.5 worth of PLEX to buy the SP to reach 50M
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3558
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:44:25 -
[3822] - Quote
Urziel99 wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: Very good point.
CCP has squandered the revenues they made from Eve on other non-profitable ventures as stated in the post above. And now in order to compensate for those losses they're trying to dig in deeper and milk their only bread winner even further??
CCP is a company, not a product and it is the goal of any company to outlive any one product they create. If a company relies on a single product for the entirety of their revenue, this is not possible. Yeah companies that sell electricity are never around long are they. Comparing a game software company to a public utility that is consumed by everyone? Apples vs Oranges fail troll -5/10
Yeah, because utilities never go bankrupt nor face sudden and drasticallychanging markets.
And here is how I read that snippet of that comment. We are hoping the future of the company lies elsewhere than EVE, so we are going to milk EVE while it dies. But hey, I'm a glass half full kinda guy.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:45:12 -
[3823] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote: You won't be able to afford them unless you plan on a career in corp theft and scamming. You'll be priced out the market. I've seen it many times, new players coming into the game with wild dreams of being able to PLEX their account and play for free but when reality hits they can barely even scrape together enough to afford their ships let alone a PLEX.
I already did it and having cash on top of that. Only reason why I'm writing here so much and don't playing EVE is traning quee which I can't accselerate. I rather earn some isks and dump them into SP than waiting until training is done. So maybe you need to stop speeking for us all. |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
960
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:47:10 -
[3824] - Quote
ColdBeauty wrote:Moac Tor wrote:I can definitley see why the leaders of PL, goons, and others are so fiercely in favour of this. Exactly what I thought as soon as Elise Randolph went on the charm offensive on reddit and various goons started backing this on the forum. They can go **** themselves. They're just as bad as all the miners who whined about barge HP until CCP finally caved and buffed it. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9347
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:47:11 -
[3825] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote: You won't be able to afford them unless you plan on a career in corp theft and scamming.
Keep selling that, bro.
Less competition for the people who will be buying them dirt cheap when 100,000 characters worth of SP packs hit the market in the first week this goes live.
You are not a new player. You know this to be true. It's how it always happens when a marketable item is introduced for the first time. It is way overproduced a to the point where you can barely give it away.
That is when I'll be doing my buying. Not a month later when they are all hoarded by speculators.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Lucas Starwalker
Aerospace Defense Association
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:49:26 -
[3826] - Quote
Hi there, I'm a new payer in Eve online, I just got my first 2 millions of Skill Points and I know that getting anywhere in this game will take me years. That, there is NO option to buy skill points is the main reason for me to stay with EvE online for many years to come. Any manipulations with this feature will result in deleting my character and canceling my account (well I'm paid till March but after ... bye, bye). What you should do in this game is to develop much more personal way of playing (not changing anything in the game) just adding new features, like options to walk on the space ships, visit planets, add special mission (look at "Star Citizen"), I know that's a lot but this game is from 2003 and is getting better and stronger, please DO NOT GO THE BAD WAY. I believe in your team and I hope to stay on a round for many years to come!!!
Lucas Starwalker... |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
229
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:51:16 -
[3827] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Moac Tor wrote: You won't be able to afford them unless you plan on a career in corp theft and scamming.
Keep selling that, bro. Less competition for the people who will be buying them dirt cheap when 100,000 characters worth of SP packs hit the market in the first week this goes live. You are not a new player. You know this to be true. It's how it always happens when a marketable item is introduced for the first time. It is way overproduced a to the point where you can barely give it away. That is when I'll be doing my buying. Not a month later when they are all hoarded by speculators. Mr Epeen
I can't wait to see the price of the packs when they come out. current plan is to hours for plex a couple unused and randomly trained alts to strip there sp and just sell it hopefully at the peak of the new thing crazy. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3558
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:52:49 -
[3828] - Quote
Lucas Starwalker wrote:Hi there, I'm a new payer in Eve online, I just got my first 2 millions of Skill Points and I know that getting anywhere in this game will take me years. That, there is NO option to buy skill points is the main reason for me to stay with EvE online for many years to come. Any manipulations with this feature will result in deleting my character and canceling my account (well I'm paid till March but after ... bye, bye). What you should do in this game is to develop much more personal way of playing (not changing anything in the game) just adding new features, like options to walk on the space ships, visit planets, add special mission (look at "Star Citizen"), I know that's a lot but this game is from 2003 and is getting better and stronger, please DO NOT GO THE BAD WAY. I believe in your team and I hope to stay on a round for many years to come!!!
Lucas Starwalker...
Walking in Stations (WiS) is dead as a doornail, IMO. Planets, let alone your own ship...no. Besides you are in a goop filled pod in your ship anyway.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
76
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:54:49 -
[3829] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:So maybe you need to stop speeking for us all.
don't take it too personal. you're not the only noob.
Quote:Hi there, I'm a new payer in Eve online, I just got my first 2 millions of Skill Points and I know that getting anywhere in this game will take me years. That, there is NO option to buy skill points is the main reason for me to stay with EvE online for many years to come. Any manipulations with this feature will result in deleting my character and canceling my account (well I'm paid till March but after ... bye, bye). What you should do in this game is to develop much more personal way of playing (not changing anything in the game) just adding new features, like options to walk on the space ships, visit planets, add special mission (look at "Star Citizen"), I know that's a lot but this game is from 2003 and is getting better and stronger, please DO NOT GO THE BAD WAY. I believe in your team and I hope to stay on a round for many years to come!!!
Lucas Starwalker...
Kinda suits the SP trading discussion (lyrics in description)
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:57:41 -
[3830] - Quote
darkchild's corpse wrote:General Lootit wrote:So maybe you need to stop speeking for us all. don't take it too personal. you're not the only noob. Quote:Hi there, I'm a new payer in Eve online, I just got my first 2 millions of Skill Points and I know that getting anywhere in this game will take me years. That, there is NO option to buy skill points is the main reason for me to stay with EvE online for many years to come. Any manipulations with this feature will result in deleting my character and canceling my account (well I'm paid till March but after ... bye, bye). What you should do in this game is to develop much more personal way of playing (not changing anything in the game) just adding new features, like options to walk on the space ships, visit planets, add special mission (look at "Star Citizen"), I know that's a lot but this game is from 2003 and is getting better and stronger, please DO NOT GO THE BAD WAY. I believe in your team and I hope to stay on a round for many years to come!!!
Lucas Starwalker... I speaking for myself. |
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:03:20 -
[3831] - Quote
Lucas Starwalker wrote: That, there is NO option to buy skill points is the main reason for me to stay with EvE online for many years to come. . Are you aware of Character Bazaar? What do you think about it? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3558
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:04:17 -
[3832] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Moac Tor wrote: You won't be able to afford them unless you plan on a career in corp theft and scamming.
Keep selling that, bro. Less competition for the people who will be buying them dirt cheap when 100,000 characters worth of SP packs hit the market in the first week this goes live. You are not a new player. You know this to be true. It's how it always happens when a marketable item is introduced for the first time. It is way overproduced a to the point where you can barely give it away. That is when I'll be doing my buying. Not a month later when they are all hoarded by speculators. Mr Epeen I can't wait to see the price of the packs when they come out. current plan is to hours for plex a couple unused and randomly trained alts to strip there sp and just sell it hopefully at the peak of the new thing crazy.
My view is that SP packets will closely track PLEX prices plus extractor costs over time. So setting up SP alts to PLEX one's account will be feasible by and large.
My problem is that as more and more people start to do this, maybe even expanding the number of their accounts as time goes bye it may require an increasing pressure on new players to provide these PLEX (after all, older players doing this also supplying the PLEX that they will then buy is just stupid). And if that falls apart, then the number of accounts might start to decline maybe even more precipitously than it already is.
Additionally, the negative tone of this thread also leads me to believe that we will see step down in the number of subscriptions as well which may be reflected in the number of players on line.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Lucas Starwalker
Aerospace Defense Association
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:07:01 -
[3833] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Lucas Starwalker wrote:Hi there, I'm a new payer in Eve online, I just got my first 2 millions of Skill Points and I know that getting anywhere in this game will take me years. That, there is NO option to buy skill points is the main reason for me to stay with EvE online for many years to come. Any manipulations with this feature will result in deleting my character and canceling my account (well I'm paid till March but after ... bye, bye). What you should do in this game is to develop much more personal way of playing (not changing anything in the game) just adding new features, like options to walk on the space ships, visit planets, add special mission (look at "Star Citizen"), I know that's a lot but this game is from 2003 and is getting better and stronger, please DO NOT GO THE BAD WAY. I believe in your team and I hope to stay on a round for many years to come!!!
Lucas Starwalker... Walking in Stations (WiS) is dead as a doornail, IMO. Planets, let alone your own ship...no. Besides you are in a goop filled pod in your ship anyway.
Yeah, you are right. But the development in the good direction can go a long way. Lets say station upgrade, where all players can actually walk and talk to each other in 3D environment. You can make new contacts, or in big corporations new plans to go for a new adventure. Spaceships could have an option to have few pilots on the board for some special missions... It is possible but it will take the time. CCP could make more money by developing this game, so many more players could have something extra in the game but keep the basics at heart... |
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra Gallente Federation
450
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:07:21 -
[3834] - Quote
CCP, when it came to Monocles you kinda did screw up...
This time however, I'd just say **** the whiners and go through with it. From my perspective this is a healthy change to the game that in reality will not affect these whiners in any way, shape or form.
In fact, it would be killing 2 birds with 1 stone. If this goes through then a lot of whiners will hopefully unsub and if lucky maybe even biomass. That means less cancer that is killing EVE. In return there just may be an influx of fresh blood not unlike when Brave did their thing - except now there is an actual feature which could potentially hook them in the game for a longer time. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:11:37 -
[3835] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:The single best thing about Eve is the skill system.
Edit, the single best thing about Eve, WAS the skill system. Motivation science would disagree.
Beyond that, just about everything that comes from games is gameplay, from dynamic socialization through actual skillfulness; and those are all limited by it.
Again, obviously retention is a problem because of SP, else this idea is completely unnecessary. Even more, the problem with it increasing sustain.. is that it's still money, on top of a sub, in a F2P industry. That's the issue now, and it comes from expectations and basic fulfillment processes.. described in motivation, game theory, and decision theory: "There's a tendency to strongly prefer avoiding losses than acquiring gains. Most studies suggest that losses are twice as powerful, psychologically, as gains," which is loss aversion.
Dror wrote:Subs have much less reason, after fantasizing about the depth of the game and hearing about the great engagements, to stay with the game -- subbing to what end for gameplay they have yet to experience? What's really powerful is freedom.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Sair Dontis
Phoenix Dawn LLC Rabbit Wholes
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:12:15 -
[3836] - Quote
I am only a newbie so take what I say with a grain of salt. Though being a newbie I can say that I enjoy the game and find the skill point system for the most part refreshing in some ways. I have yet to not have something to do. I find it refreshing that unlike MMOs like WoW most of your game experience isn't over till next week, nor capped with a limited number of tries to get anywhere.
Honestly the only time that I really feel the "SP Wall" is when being preyed on with endless wardecs by a bored weathly corp/ alliance with higher end ships (that are more expensive than I would want to pay anyway), though they are paying way more than I am to maintain their CONCORD bribe.
Alright to the heart of it as I see it from a new pilot stand point. I find the Skill Point (SP) system well paced. By this I mean that by the time you have trained into said ship or profession hub skill (PI, research, etc) you will actually have the ISK to pay it as long as you didn't moan too much about losing a ship or two in the process. Honestly the only real time that I lost a ship(s) was when I was pushing the envelope and overextended. My point is simply having more skills in no way insulates you from the cold harsh universe of EVE, nor should it.
I as a new player love that I am building a character that is for the most part solely built from the ground up by my choices. I can not understand some of fellow new pilots saying that they "wasted" their time with a "worthless" skill. It is not as if you can make a mistake and erase the skill once you learn, actually you don't even lose your progress in the skill if you remove it from your queue (I am looking at you professions of Wow) !
I see if given the choice to erase my "mistakes" either through remapping my skill points or simply selling my character as diluting the game of EVE itself one SP or character at a time. I don't see myself as a victim or the super rich or highly skilled characters/ corps/ alliances out there. To tell you the truth, now like I said I am not a veteran of this game yet, but the mere fact that I can train into a Tech III Destroyer in under a month as amazing (granted I would not have the skills yet to fully take advantage of all it can do) and a huge bone thrown to the just starting player!
TLDR: If I have not been clear, I would like to say my feedback as a just started EVE player, would be a resounding NO! to being able to purchase Skill Points in any way, shape, or form. I personally would see it as losing something that truly makes my Capsuleer unique to me. |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
229
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:13:14 -
[3837] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Lady Rift wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Moac Tor wrote: You won't be able to afford them unless you plan on a career in corp theft and scamming.
Keep selling that, bro. Less competition for the people who will be buying them dirt cheap when 100,000 characters worth of SP packs hit the market in the first week this goes live. You are not a new player. You know this to be true. It's how it always happens when a marketable item is introduced for the first time. It is way overproduced a to the point where you can barely give it away. That is when I'll be doing my buying. Not a month later when they are all hoarded by speculators. Mr Epeen I can't wait to see the price of the packs when they come out. current plan is to hours for plex a couple unused and randomly trained alts to strip there sp and just sell it hopefully at the peak of the new thing crazy. My view is that SP packets will closely track PLEX prices plus extractor costs over time. So setting up SP alts to PLEX one's account will be feasible by and large. My problem is that as more and more people start to do this, maybe even expanding the number of their accounts as time goes bye it may require an increasing pressure on new players to provide these PLEX (after all, older players doing this also supplying the PLEX that they will then buy is just stupid). And if that falls apart, then the number of accounts might start to decline maybe even more precipitously than it already is. Additionally, the negative tone of this thread also leads me to believe that we will see step down in the number of subscriptions as well which may be reflected in the number of players on line.
Which is why im going to burn my 15, 11 and 9 mil sp alts that haven't been used or subbed in almost years at this point to take all there sp and hope that the price is sky high at the start. I realize that the price will normalize down to plex+extractor which is why my plan is to do it right off when released as I don't plan to sub those accounts unless over the long term it is shown to be profitable to actually run an alt for sp harvesting only.
|
Dave Stark
7618
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:16:17 -
[3838] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Highlights
- About 1000 Aurum per Extractor
- 121 SP Packets for a 50M SP player
- Estimated 769m ISK per SP packet
- $1312.5 worth of PLEX to buy the SP to reach 50M
what's ~1000 aurum in isk? |
Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
1674
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:17:15 -
[3839] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Seven Koskanaiken wrote:General Lootit wrote:That change not about humiliating vets but about helping newbie to test more activities in shorter time. So they could choose their specialization which they like. Don't be jealous - you already have huge advantage. So...just give them more starter SP? This thing just looks like an reasonable attempt to make things easier for newbies (good, sure, whatever) but then goes completely off the rails by haphazardly trying to pay lip service the economy, then further mangling it with diminishing returns and whatnot. No, thanks. Original purpose is good enough. Main issue of free starting SP thats it's free. It doesn't encourage to participate in game and just "makes life of newbie easire". I talked about not easier but shorter in terms of time.
Then...give every newbie a buffed cerebral accelerator that exponentially decays?
If a system is soooo fragile that it requires half or more the playerbase be shut out in order to work, then, it's probably not a good system. In any game, let alone the famously "single shard, one economy" game. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
439
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:23:25 -
[3840] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:I already did it and having cash on top of that. Only reason why I'm writing here so much and don't playing EVE is traning quee which I can't accselerate. I rather earn some isks and dump them into SP than waiting until training is done. So maybe you need to stop speeking for us all. Good, so your opinion on that subject doesn't matter. You perform scam, have lots of ISK, buy a toon on market. You can afford it. Not every noob will perform a scam, will have lots of cash and buy toon from market. I'm not speaking for you, I'm speaking for them. You a perfect representant of insta gratification generation. If CCP wants to lean player base on such players I'm outta here. This game will become even easier than now. They may earn money this way at start, but insta gratification crowd has short focus plane, and gets boring fast.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
|
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
229
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:23:45 -
[3841] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Highlights
- About 1000 Aurum per Extractor
- 121 SP Packets for a 50M SP player
- Estimated 769m ISK per SP packet
- $1312.5 worth of PLEX to buy the SP to reach 50M
what's ~1000 aurum in isk?
3500 Aurum/Plex
plex price in isk is market based. More expensive plex is the more isk an aurum cost. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:26:06 -
[3842] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:General Lootit wrote:Seven Koskanaiken wrote:General Lootit wrote:That change not about humiliating vets but about helping newbie to test more activities in shorter time. So they could choose their specialization which they like. Don't be jealous - you already have huge advantage. So...just give them more starter SP? This thing just looks like an reasonable attempt to make things easier for newbies (good, sure, whatever) but then goes completely off the rails by haphazardly trying to pay lip service the economy, then further mangling it with diminishing returns and whatnot. No, thanks. Original purpose is good enough. Main issue of free starting SP thats it's free. It doesn't encourage to participate in game and just "makes life of newbie easire". I talked about not easier but shorter in terms of time. Then...give every newbie a buffed cerebral accelerator that exponentially decays? If a system is soooo fragile that it requires half or more the playerbase be shut out in order to work, then, it's probably not a good system. In any game, let alone the famously "single shard, one economy" game. It's much like free starting SP. It doesn't encourage to do anything in the game. Just passive gaining of SP. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:26:58 -
[3843] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:General Lootit wrote:I already did it and having cash on top of that. Only reason why I'm writing here so much and don't playing EVE is traning quee which I can't accselerate. I rather earn some isks and dump them into SP than waiting until training is done. So maybe you need to stop speeking for us all. Good, so your opinion on that subject doesn't matter. You perform scam, have lots of ISK, buy a toon on market. You can afford it. Not every noob will perform a scam, will have lots of cash and buy toon from market. I'm not speaking for you, I'm speaking for them. You a perfect representant of insta gratification generation. If CCP wants to lean player base on such players I'm outta here. This game will become even easier than now. They may earn money this way at start, but insta gratification crowd has short focus plane, and gets boring fast.
Dror wrote:You're making the whole of issues out to be a people problem. Prove it, then. Prove that motivation isn't some inherent process that design has to be submitted to. Prove that undermining player skillfulness is motivating, instead of its alternative of allowing progression and mastery.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Lucas Starwalker
Aerospace Defense Association
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:28:13 -
[3844] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Lucas Starwalker wrote: That, there is NO option to buy skill points is the main reason for me to stay with EvE online for many years to come. . What do you think about Character Bazaar? And why you against this idea?
Why? There is a lot of people that have lots of money (in real life). New players (not as lucky) will need to play years to get there where those who are millionaires (in real life) will lough and destroy the gameplay for others... |
Horak Thor
For The Republic The Outer Collective
248
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:30:11 -
[3845] - Quote
I wasn't going to comment, as most that think this is a good idea probably won't, as a 10+year player with most accounts in the 50-80 mil sp range (ie most to lose) this can only be good.
Gj CCP again.
.....
|
Dave Stark
7618
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:31:00 -
[3846] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Highlights
- About 1000 Aurum per Extractor
- 121 SP Packets for a 50M SP player
- Estimated 769m ISK per SP packet
- $1312.5 worth of PLEX to buy the SP to reach 50M
what's ~1000 aurum in isk? 3500 Aurum/Plex plex price in isk is market based. More expensive plex is the more isk an aurum cost.
at current prices (1.2bn) that's around 350m?, maybe more tomorrow when plex hits 1.3 or so.
well that's about 10x more expensive than the price i was randomly guessing at. |
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:31:06 -
[3847] - Quote
Lucas Starwalker wrote:General Lootit wrote:Lucas Starwalker wrote: That, there is NO option to buy skill points is the main reason for me to stay with EvE online for many years to come. . What do you think about Character Bazaar? And why you against this idea? Why? There is a lot of people that have lots of money (in real life). New players (not as lucky) will need to play years to get there where those who are millionaires (in real life) will lough and destroy the gameplay for others...
How many millionaires do you think there are that dont already have a max SP character? What has stopped them spending -ú1000's already on a 2004 character on character bazaar?
Your statement is pointless. |
Lucas Starwalker
Aerospace Defense Association
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:33:33 -
[3848] - Quote
Just a simple reasoning...
There is a lot of people that have lots of money (in real life). New players (not as lucky) will need to play years to get there where those who are millionaires (in real life) will laugh and destroy the gameplay for others...
Lucas Starwalker |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:33:54 -
[3849] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:General Lootit wrote:I already did it and having cash on top of that. Only reason why I'm writing here so much and don't playing EVE is traning quee which I can't accselerate. I rather earn some isks and dump them into SP than waiting until training is done. So maybe you need to stop speeking for us all. Good, so your opinion on that subject doesn't matter. You perform scam, have lots of ISK, buy a toon on market. You can afford it. Not every noob will perform a scam, will have lots of cash and buy toon from market. I'm not speaking for you, I'm speaking for them. You a perfect representant of insta gratification generation. If CCP wants to lean player base on such players I'm outta here. This game will become even easier than now. They may earn money this way at start, but insta gratification crowd has short focus plane, and gets boring fast. Are you understand that tou just slandered me? If you could check my posts history you might notice that I earned money on FW. It was rude. |
Dave Stark
7618
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:35:36 -
[3850] - Quote
Lucas Starwalker wrote:Just a simple reasoning...
There is a lot of people that have lots of money (in real life). New players (not as lucky) will need to play years to get there where those who are millionaires (in real life) will laugh and destroy the gameplay for others...
Lucas Starwalker
so you're saying rich people have destroyed the gameplay for others? |
|
atif09
THE THIRTEEN SAMURAI The Old Guard.
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:36:19 -
[3851] - Quote
CCP will implement this feature regardless as it is a new cash stream.
I say if they're going to add it they should make it better
instead of punishing people who have high sp already with reductions on sp received from packets. 500k-50k...wtf is up with that?
make it a linear trait where the more sp packets you use the less sp you receive
e.g.
using 1-10 packets gives you full sp return using 10-30 packets gives 90% sp return etc etc
they should also increase the sp drained amount from 500k to 1 mil as 1 mil sp packets sound better :) |
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
22
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:36:25 -
[3852] - Quote
Lucas Starwalker wrote:Just a simple reasoning...
There is a lot of people that have lots of money (in real life). New players (not as lucky) will need to play years to get there where those who are millionaires (in real life) will laugh and destroy the gameplay for others...
Lucas Starwalker
If millionaires wanted to destroy the game for others, they would have spent -ú1000's on PLEX and crashed the market. Having a character with max SP is NOT going to destroy the gameplay for anyone... Just means you get to fly a shiner ship to get blobbed. |
Lucas Starwalker
Aerospace Defense Association
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:38:43 -
[3853] - Quote
Skinzee wrote:Lucas Starwalker wrote:General Lootit wrote:Lucas Starwalker wrote: That, there is NO option to buy skill points is the main reason for me to stay with EvE online for many years to come. . What do you think about Character Bazaar? And why you against this idea? Why? There is a lot of people that have lots of money (in real life). New players (not as lucky) will need to play years to get there where those who are millionaires (in real life) will lough and destroy the gameplay for others... How many millionaires do you think there are that dont already have a max SP character? What has stopped them spending -ú1000's already on a 2004 character on character bazaar? Your statement is pointless.
When I started this game there was a note that selling or giving your character to someone else is prohibited. That should be honoured and anyone who's doing anything like that should be destroyed in the game. Easy... |
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
22
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:40:38 -
[3854] - Quote
Lucas Starwalker wrote:Skinzee wrote:Lucas Starwalker wrote:General Lootit wrote:Lucas Starwalker wrote: That, there is NO option to buy skill points is the main reason for me to stay with EvE online for many years to come. . What do you think about Character Bazaar? And why you against this idea? Why? There is a lot of people that have lots of money (in real life). New players (not as lucky) will need to play years to get there where those who are millionaires (in real life) will lough and destroy the gameplay for others... How many millionaires do you think there are that dont already have a max SP character? What has stopped them spending -ú1000's already on a 2004 character on character bazaar? Your statement is pointless. When I started this game there was a note that selling or giving your character to someone else is prohibited. That should be honoured and anyone who's doing anything like that should be destroyed in the game. Easy...
Errrr... What?
|
Dave Stark
7618
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:41:02 -
[3855] - Quote
Lucas Starwalker wrote:Skinzee wrote:Lucas Starwalker wrote:General Lootit wrote:Lucas Starwalker wrote: That, there is NO option to buy skill points is the main reason for me to stay with EvE online for many years to come. . What do you think about Character Bazaar? And why you against this idea? Why? There is a lot of people that have lots of money (in real life). New players (not as lucky) will need to play years to get there where those who are millionaires (in real life) will lough and destroy the gameplay for others... How many millionaires do you think there are that dont already have a max SP character? What has stopped them spending -ú1000's already on a 2004 character on character bazaar? Your statement is pointless. When I started this game there was a note that selling or giving your character to someone else is prohibited. That should be honoured and anyone who's doing anything like that should be destroyed in the game. Easy...
you do realise there's a forum section of the official forums (these forums) that is for the express purpose of buying and selling characters, that is moderated by CCP to ensure no scams take place. right? |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
237
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:43:27 -
[3856] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Moac Tor wrote: You won't be able to afford them unless you plan on a career in corp theft and scamming. You'll be priced out the market. I've seen it many times, new players coming into the game with wild dreams of being able to PLEX their account and play for free but when reality hits they can barely even scrape together enough to afford their ships let alone a PLEX.
I already did it and having cash on top of that. Only reason why I'm writing here so much and don't playing EVE is traning quee which I can't accselerate. I rather earn some isks and dump them into SP than waiting until training is done. So maybe you need to stop speeking for us all. You should be spending that ISK on ships and having fun. Not grinding FW plexes to try and advance your training que, trust me I've done it and it is boring as heck.
What you don't realise is that we experienced players have been in this for years and we've tried all the ISK making methods to death barring some of the huge alliance level stuff so we are speaking from experience. This is not going to be accessible to you unless you are one of the very small percentage of players who become a successful trader or scammer, or you grind like hell to advance your skill que.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
55
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:43:52 -
[3857] - Quote
Hey Dave
you laughed when i said 530 / 600m , Cash cow coming to mind more now :) |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:44:24 -
[3858] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:This gives some insight to the thinking on the limitations in the dev blog, also with some clever math one could estimate how much the extractors might cost. 2700 * 24 * 30 * 26 = 50,544,000 So it takes 26 PLEX at minimum to get to the 50M SP area plus the 2 PLEX needed to transfer a character would put it to a total of 28 PLEX, at the exchange rate of 3500 Aurum/Plex that would net 98,000 Aurum. With a 5M SP minimum requirement for extraction you would get to extract 45.5M from this character at 500,000 per extractor you would need 91 extractors. 98,000 / 91 = 1076.92 Aurum per extractor. Highlights
- About 1000 Aurum per Extractor
- 121 SP Packets for a 50M SP player
- Estimated 769m ISK per SP packet
- $1312.5 worth of PLEX to buy the SP to reach 50M
Dave Stark wrote:at current prices (1.2bn) that's around 350m?, maybe more tomorrow when plex hits 1.3 or so.
well that's about 10x more expensive than the price i was randomly guessing at. Except, that's equating character value to find the cost of extractors, which is completely baseless. At best, there's randomly assigning a percentage value to that -- so 2-15%, or whatever, of SP's value per packet.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Dave Stark
7618
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:48:09 -
[3859] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Hey Dave
you laughed when i said 530 / 600m , Cash cow coming to mind more now :)
and i still do. i sincerely doubt they'll cost that much. if they do, christ... that's an absurd price.
although on the bright side for everyone that doesn't want this system in the game - at prices like ~600m/extractor any character over 2m sp, or 1 month old will be cheaper at the bazaar and there's basically no market for SP packets. |
Dave Stark
7618
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:51:02 -
[3860] - Quote
Dror wrote:Except, that's equating character value to find the cost of extractors, which is completely baseless. At best, there's randomly assigning a percentage value to that -- so 2-15%, or whatever, of SP's value per packet.
in all fairness my estimate of like 24m/extractor was kinda also based on character value.
although that was in the 5-10% range for the cost of a whole packet. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1649
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:56:51 -
[3861] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Highlights
- About 1000 Aurum per Extractor
- 121 SP Packets for a 50M SP player
- Estimated 769m ISK per SP packet
- $1312.5 worth of PLEX to buy the SP to reach 50M
what's ~1000 aurum in isk? @1.2B/Plex 1000 aur is ~350m.
I'm on the side of thinking that's high as the reasoning used double pays for the creation of the character, PLEX equivalent to the seller for the creation of the SP, and then again at a similar rate for the ability to transfer it? Considering it only takes 2 PLEX to transfer any amount of SP via the Bazaar currently that price seems really high.
Edit: CCP Terminus, not sure if you have the numbers or can share them if you do, but do you have any idea about the average SP of Bazaar traded characters? |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:59:56 -
[3862] - Quote
Hey, Tiberius, What's your take on this effecting retention?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Dave Stark
7618
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:00:33 -
[3863] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Highlights
- About 1000 Aurum per Extractor
- 121 SP Packets for a 50M SP player
- Estimated 769m ISK per SP packet
- $1312.5 worth of PLEX to buy the SP to reach 50M
what's ~1000 aurum in isk? @1.2B/Plex 1000 aur is ~350m. I'm on the side of thinking that's high as the reasoning used double pays for the creation of the character, PLEX equivalent to the seller for the creation of the SP, and then again at a similar rate for the ability to transfer it? Considering it only takes 2 PLEX to transfer any amount of SP via the Bazaar currently that price seems really high.
indeed. when i came up with my 24m/unit price it was based on 2 plex (the current transfer fee costing 2.4bn) transfering 50m sp (which is a figure ccp terminus used and i'm assuming he picked that number for a reason which is equivalent to 100 packets). |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3221
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:02:37 -
[3864] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Highlights
- About 1000 Aurum per Extractor
- 121 SP Packets for a 50M SP player
- Estimated 769m ISK per SP packet
- $1312.5 worth of PLEX to buy the SP to reach 50M
what's ~1000 aurum in isk? @1.2B/Plex 1000 aur is ~350m. I'm on the side of thinking that's high as the reasoning used double pays for the creation of the character, PLEX equivalent to the seller for the creation of the SP, and then again at a similar rate for the ability to transfer it? Considering it only takes 2 PLEX to transfer any amount of SP via the Bazaar currently that price seems really high. 2 plex currently transfers any amount of SP via the baazar, there has to be a point where they market these. Even halving tgr cost to 500 aurum, which I fairly cheap considering what they do it would still cost around 594m isk.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:03:35 -
[3865] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:General Lootit wrote:Moac Tor wrote: You won't be able to afford them unless you plan on a career in corp theft and scamming. You'll be priced out the market. I've seen it many times, new players coming into the game with wild dreams of being able to PLEX their account and play for free but when reality hits they can barely even scrape together enough to afford their ships let alone a PLEX.
I already did it and having cash on top of that. Only reason why I'm writing here so much and don't playing EVE is traning quee which I can't accselerate. I rather earn some isks and dump them into SP than waiting until training is done. So maybe you need to stop speeking for us all. You should be spending that ISK on ships and having fun. Not grinding FW plexes to try and advance your training que, trust me I've done it and it is boring as heck. What you don't realise is that we experienced players have been in this for years and we've tried all the ISK making methods to death barring some of the huge alliance level stuff so we are speaking from experience. This is not going to be accessible to you unless you are one of the very small percentage of players who become a successful trader or scammer, or you grind like hell to advance your skill que. Agree it's boring like hell. I intend to try combat exploration and thats why I waiting for quee. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9348
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:04:34 -
[3866] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Highlights
- About 1000 Aurum per Extractor
- 121 SP Packets for a 50M SP player
- Estimated 769m ISK per SP packet
- $1312.5 worth of PLEX to buy the SP to reach 50M
what's ~1000 aurum in isk? @1.2B/Plex 1000 aur is ~350m. I'm on the side of thinking that's high as the reasoning used double pays for the creation of the character, PLEX equivalent to the seller for the creation of the SP, and then again at a similar rate for the ability to transfer it? Considering it only takes 2 PLEX to transfer any amount of SP via the Bazaar currently that price seems really high. I'm not going to speculate on what the prices might be, but I will say that I have no doubt that CCP has done the math to optimize the prices at levels that will keep SP packs competitive with characters from the bazaar.
It will always be cheaper to just let time be the price to make a character, but if extractors and transfer fees bump it up too much over that, it will be a total failure. I don't think CCP will make such a fundamental mistake in this plan of theirs.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1649
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:05:30 -
[3867] - Quote
Dror wrote:Hey, Tiberius, What's your take on this effecting retention? I can't strongly guess one way or another, but based on CCP Terminus advising that mostly new players buy characters I think easing the burden from a large purchase to smaller piecemeal ones could have a positive effect among new players. For older players it should be a non-issue, but we've got some really strong bias against it and who knows if they'll follow through on their threats to quit should it become reality. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2191
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:05:35 -
[3868] - Quote
The cost will floor based on the aur/isk ratio. Within moments of launch there will be farms created driving the price down to this point. |
Dave Stark
7618
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:05:56 -
[3869] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:which I fairly cheap considering what they do it would still cost around 594m isk.
you are aware at nearly 600m/unit that would obsolete the new system for any character over 2m SP (like, 6 weeks old)?
as soon as your character hits 2m SP it would have been cheaper to purchase it on the bazaar. |
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:06:50 -
[3870] - Quote
$1000 Jeans |
|
Heathkit
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
97
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:09:11 -
[3871] - Quote
It's sad to see the overreactions in this thread. I'm very impressed with this feature - it's a clever, elegant addition to the game. It takes an arcane and obscure process (trading characters via the forum), and adds depth to the game by creating a new market.
People were already taking advantages of PLEX deals and referral bonuses to start accounts and use them to "grow" characters to sell on the bazaar. This approach just makes that process more approachable and accessible to the majority of players. I really like the idea of being able to trade skill points without having to also trade a character's identity, or get some value out of the skill points I have but no longer want.
The process is totally driven through the player market. You already needed plex to trade characters, anyway. Obviously, they need to balance the details so that trading skillpoints isn't prohibitively expensive, but even if they get it wrong it just means no one will use the feature until they fix it.
Honestly, I think this is the kind of progressive thinking we should be encouraging from CCP. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1649
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:10:51 -
[3872] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Highlights
- About 1000 Aurum per Extractor
- 121 SP Packets for a 50M SP player
- Estimated 769m ISK per SP packet
- $1312.5 worth of PLEX to buy the SP to reach 50M
what's ~1000 aurum in isk? @1.2B/Plex 1000 aur is ~350m. I'm on the side of thinking that's high as the reasoning used double pays for the creation of the character, PLEX equivalent to the seller for the creation of the SP, and then again at a similar rate for the ability to transfer it? Considering it only takes 2 PLEX to transfer any amount of SP via the Bazaar currently that price seems really high. 2 plex currently transfers any amount of SP via the baazar, there has to be a point where they market these. Even halving tgr cost to 500 aurum, which I fairly cheap considering what they do it would still cost around 594m isk. Trying to figure that out is what the request for the average transfered is. at your current rate of 1000 aur/extractor that balance falls at the transfer cost of buying a 3,500,000 SP character. That feels like a low balance point. Even half at 7,000,000 SP still feels pretty restrictive.
@ Mr Epeen:
I'm sure they have a plan, yes, but I'm not quite so willing to suggest input on fair pricing shouldn't be provided. I'd hate for this to go the vanity route price wise, invalidating much of the good it could do and reinforcing the "cash grab" accusation crowd.
|
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:13:47 -
[3873] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:ColdBeauty wrote:Moac Tor wrote:I can definitley see why the leaders of PL, goons, and others are so fiercely in favour of this. Exactly what I thought as soon as Elise Randolph went on the charm offensive on reddit and various goons started backing this on the forum. They can go **** themselves. They're just as bad as all the miners who whined about barge HP until CCP finally caved and buffed it.
|
Dave Stark
7618
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:13:50 -
[3874] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I'm sure they have a plan, yes, but I'm not quite so willing to suggest input on fair pricing shouldn't be provided. I'd hate for this to go the vanity route price wise, invalidating much of the good it could do and reinforcing the "cash grab" accusation crowd.
indeed - if they price TSEs like they price skins... oh boy. expect to see 1 plex (3500 aur) extractors.
skin prices are, imo, absurdly high considering what they are. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3558
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:17:54 -
[3875] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: So it takes 26 PLEX at minimum to get to the 50M SP area plus the 2 PLEX needed to transfer a character would put it to a total of 28 PLEX, at the exchange rate of 3500 Aurum/Plex that would net 98,000 Aurum. With a 5M SP minimum requirement for extraction you would get to extract 45.5M from this character at 500,000 per extractor you would need 91 extractors. 98,000 / 91 = 1076.92 Aurum per extractor.
I like a lot of the math, but I think this is forgetting a couple of points. You calculate the transfer cost with both the seller's PLEX and Extractor costs. While not explicitly wrong, this makes selling via Extractor far more expensive for the buyer than the Character Bazaar. Seeing as this is meant to make the idea of resource trading easier I doubt CCP would shoot that effort in the foot by making it stupidly expensive compared to the alternative. For reference, your 50M SP character is 93B ISK. On the front page of the Character Bazaar right now there are three toons in the 50M SP range being sold for 25-30B ISK ( 1, 2, 3). Honestly, I'm expecting the Aurum cost to be a substitute for the 2 PLEX fee against an average CB transfer - not the full character train cost. So assuming the average CB toon is 20M SP, that would mean 2 PLEX of Aurum would cover 20M SP worth of Extractors. Or: 20M SP / 500k SP per Extractor = 40 Extractors 7000 Aurum for 2 PLEX / 40 Extractors = 175 Aurum per Extractor. That cost of course going up/down depending on what the actual average CB sale is. Still completely shot in the dark numbers, but there's no way we're going to end up with a production cost of 90B ISK on 50M SP worth of packets.
SP that can be freely allocated will always be worth more than SP that has already been allocated. It is like which would you rather have, a block of cheese or the dollar value of that cheese which you can spend on anything you want (and can afford with that money). Most people go with the latter.
Conversely at 300 million for 500,000 SP that breaks down to 600 ISK/SP whereas in the character bazaar that ratio is closer to 500 ISK/SP, so SP off the market (for a character less than 5 million SP) comes at a 20% premium (plus the cost of the extractor).
Some people might go and try to use SP packets to make a 50 million SP character, but that is the expensive wayGǪin part because of the extractor costs, but also due to the decreasing returns associated with SP packets.
For CCP to dodge this problem theyGÇÖd have to do away with the decreasing returns, in which case, shut the server down now and fire everyone and save yourself all that money.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3558
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:20:28 -
[3876] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:Hey, Tiberius, What's your take on this effecting retention? I can't strongly guess one way or another, but based on CCP Terminus advising that mostly new players buy characters I think easing the burden from a large purchase to smaller piecemeal ones could have a positive effect among new players. For older players it should be a non-issue, but we've got some really strong bias against it and who knows if they'll follow through on their threats to quit should it become reality.
Which is why I'd like to see some numbers on how many new players go to the character bazaar. How many of those that do stay for X, Y, and Z lengths of time.
If the numbers are "large", I'd probably relax a bit about this.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:31:47 -
[3877] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:I'm sure they have a plan, yes, but I'm not quite so willing to suggest input on fair pricing shouldn't be provided. I'd hate for this to go the vanity route price wise, invalidating much of the good it could do and reinforcing the "cash grab" accusation crowd.
indeed - if they price TSEs like they price skins... oh boy. expect to see 1 plex (3500 aur) extractors. skin prices are, imo, absurdly high considering what they are.
There's still more than enough ways for CCP to c*** this up so badly that even the people who are totally behind the idea will be rioting in Jita/Amarr over the price of the extractors
Lest we forget ...
GÇ£Assume for a short while that you are wearing a pair of $1,000 jeans from some exclusive Japanese boutique shop. Why would you want to wear a pair of $1,000 jeans when you can get perfectly similar jeans for under $50? What do other people think about you when they see you wearing them? For some you will look like the sad culmination of vainness while others will admire you and think you are the coolest thing since sliced bread. Whichever it is, it is clear that by wearing clothes you are expressing yourself and that the price is one of the many dimensions that clothes possess to do that in addition to style and fit. You donGÇÖt need to buy expensive clothes. In fact you donGÇÖt need to buy any clothes. Whatever you choose to do reflects what you are and what you want others to think you are.
We will gradually introduce items at other price points, definitely lower and probably higher than whatGÇÿs in the store today. We hope you enjoy them and are as passionate about them as you are of the current items that are for sale.GÇ¥ |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:42:40 -
[3878] - Quote
As long as buying one also involves shipping it to where it is needed - No more of this buy at Jita and automagically get to use it 20 jumps away.
Give something back to the Gankers - Make it a high value cargo that requires transportation |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
240
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:45:43 -
[3879] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Moac Tor wrote:General Lootit wrote:Moac Tor wrote: You won't be able to afford them unless you plan on a career in corp theft and scamming. You'll be priced out the market. I've seen it many times, new players coming into the game with wild dreams of being able to PLEX their account and play for free but when reality hits they can barely even scrape together enough to afford their ships let alone a PLEX.
I already did it and having cash on top of that. Only reason why I'm writing here so much and don't playing EVE is traning quee which I can't accselerate. I rather earn some isks and dump them into SP than waiting until training is done. So maybe you need to stop speeking for us all. You should be spending that ISK on ships and having fun. Not grinding FW plexes to try and advance your training que, trust me I've done it and it is boring as heck. What you don't realise is that we experienced players have been in this for years and we've tried all the ISK making methods to death barring some of the huge alliance level stuff so we are speaking from experience. This is not going to be accessible to you unless you are one of the very small percentage of players who become a successful trader or scammer, or you grind like hell to advance your skill que. Agree it's boring like hell. I intend to try combat exploration and thats why I waiting for quee. If your looking at combat exploration then why not try some hacking and data sites whilst you wait. And trust me, hold onto that ISK as you can never have enough ISK in Eve.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Fool Nalelmir
LEX University Limited Expectations
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:46:16 -
[3880] - Quote
Ok,
I had a very bad reaction to this at first. I had a lot of really strong negative feelings about it but have had both some time to calm down and also been thinking about this. i have also talked to some of the "younger" guys and they are all excited about this. So here is where I am with it atm
1) I am worried that this will be cost prohibitive for actual new players. If new players join it is hard to drive the price point up with out the a fair few getting bitter faster. I think we will see a lot of new bros joining getting milked for money and leaving. But then lets be honest here for ever what 100 that join 10 are gonna stick around for the long haul so if that means that there is more money to keep the lights on so be it.
2) I really think there needs to be more content in the game to retain these people that is the core failing. Yes this is a PVP central game but adding more ways to play in the sandbox is really gonna be key.
3) I think it is foolish to think that older players will not abuse/use this but I can live with this.
4) most of the younger players are excited about this and we the "older" players should probably sit back and adapt to the new change.
5) This isn't really pay-to-win lets be honest the price point will be to high for that to really be a thing.
6) I think most of us who are complaining will come around in time. And we are already addicted we need the next generation of EVE addicts to start logging in
So CCP sorry I got all but hurt about it. keep working on it. |
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40545
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:48:28 -
[3881] - Quote
Having thought about this for a couple of days, I still think the current design is poor, although I agree with the underlying reasons for change.
The strong message I got from the devblog was about player control, progression for new players and fixing aspects of the character bazaar.
But, a large part of the reaction to it has been an interpretation that this is a money grab and a shift towards p2w.
So assuming that it isn't intended as a money grab or a shift towards p2w, I think there is another option that does achieve greater control for players and progression for new players.
When the pre-requisities to fit rigs was removed, everyone in the community rejoiced. Anyone could fit any rig to a ship and get the benefit of having that rig fit. However, not having the skill trained meant that they suffered the full drawback of the rig also.
I personally think this is a better model to use when trying to increase control and allow faster progression for new players.
That's exactly the outcome that the rig fitting changes achieved.
So I personally think a better approach would be to remove the pre-requisites to fly any ship or use any module; but in doing so, you get access to the basic attributes, but none of the bonuses until you train the skills.
So a day old character would be able to jump into a HAC and fit it with T2 guns, but wouldn't gain any of the benefit from training the cruiser or HAC skills, nor the benefit of having the gunnery support skills trained.
They'd gain greater progression and have more control (as all players would), but the associated skills would still provide a more ideal situation, just as they do with fitting rigs.
That would probably be a bigger project and there's probably skills that could be consolidated and removed from the game, but as an overall approach, I think it provides a better outcome and is much more in line with an approach to change that the community all praised.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
240
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:53:35 -
[3882] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Moac Tor wrote: You won't be able to afford them unless you plan on a career in corp theft and scamming.
Keep selling that, bro. Less competition for the people who will be buying them dirt cheap when 100,000 characters worth of SP packs hit the market in the first week this goes live. You are not a new player. You know this to be true. It's how it always happens when a marketable item is introduced for the first time. It is way overproduced a to the point where you can barely give it away. That is when I'll be doing my buying. Not a month later when they are all hoarded by speculators. Mr Epeen Yes initially you are right the price will be steep drop, and then as the big alliances and speculators start buying them up the price will rise. Lets say as a rough estimate it will drop to 200mil and stabilise at 300mil for 500k, would you advice a new player to grind 300mil (considering how long it will take) for another 500mil SP?
That doesn't sound like a very enjoyable way to play the game in my view.
Instead you could open up more possibilities and options that are available to new players with low skill which is what CCP have been doing.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:57:41 -
[3883] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:General Lootit wrote:Moac Tor wrote:General Lootit wrote:Moac Tor wrote: You won't be able to afford them unless you plan on a career in corp theft and scamming. You'll be priced out the market. I've seen it many times, new players coming into the game with wild dreams of being able to PLEX their account and play for free but when reality hits they can barely even scrape together enough to afford their ships let alone a PLEX.
I already did it and having cash on top of that. Only reason why I'm writing here so much and don't playing EVE is traning quee which I can't accselerate. I rather earn some isks and dump them into SP than waiting until training is done. So maybe you need to stop speeking for us all. You should be spending that ISK on ships and having fun. Not grinding FW plexes to try and advance your training que, trust me I've done it and it is boring as heck. What you don't realise is that we experienced players have been in this for years and we've tried all the ISK making methods to death barring some of the huge alliance level stuff so we are speaking from experience. This is not going to be accessible to you unless you are one of the very small percentage of players who become a successful trader or scammer, or you grind like hell to advance your skill que. Agree it's boring like hell. I intend to try combat exploration and thats why I waiting for quee. If your looking at combat exploration then why not try some hacking and data sites whilst you wait. And trust me, hold onto that ISK as you can never have enough ISK in Eve. I already tried. If you will convince every newbie which you met in that than of course they will be poor as you described. |
Jared Khanar
47
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:59:47 -
[3884] - Quote
some last words before leaving here:
Scipio Artelius hit the point.
CCP.
Change is good - especially changing mechanics overall received as problematic. but don-¦t turn solutions to bad gamedesign into additional financial income. That gives a very bad taste - either pay or live with it. Many, many bad companies act like this. Don-¦t get another one of those. You can do better than that.
o7
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 22:00:49 -
[3885] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:Hey, Tiberius, What's your take on this effecting retention? I can't strongly guess one way or another, but based on CCP Terminus advising that mostly new players buy characters I think easing the burden from a large purchase to smaller piecemeal ones could have a positive effect among new players. For older players it should be a non-issue, but we've got some really strong bias against it and who knows if they'll follow through on their threats to quit should it become reality. The basic philosophy has to do with the value of gameplay coming from the money spent (and plausibly how much money can be spent).
So, what game design strategy can reinforce enjoyment? A blogpost about SWG lists the following:
Quote:SWG had the shortest play session of any RPG at SOE (action games, including Planetside, had shorter). This had very much been a design goal: mission terminals, offline crafting and harvesting, etc., were designed to provide exactly this result in order to make MMOs more accessible. Time sinks had historically been a huge barrier to adoption of MMOs by audiences beyond the core. It also had a lot of features designed to attract players beyond the core. These things seem to have worked as intended. These days, people think of SWG as grindy, but it actually had the fastest advancement of any MMO at the time it came out. The blog also states that the game had the best one-month conversion of any game at SOE, by a double-digit percentage. So, there's value in quick play sessions and, apparently, quick progression. There's more good news:
Quote:However, at the same time, it also had the highest total hours played per week. In other words, it was the least grindy per session, and the most sticky on a week or month basis. Note that lower session lengths naturally equals lower concurrency numbers. But the bottom line is that SWG had the highest percentage of its user base logging in every month out of any SOE game, again by double-digit percentages. Here's where that's problematic for EVE. All of the gameplay that could be "login and edit" is restricted by SP. That, for probably a huge majority, is a sandbox game without crafting or marketing or contributing for any industry at all.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
241
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 22:03:27 -
[3886] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Moac Tor wrote:If your looking at combat exploration then why not try some hacking and data sites whilst you wait. And trust me, hold onto that ISK as you can never have enough ISK in Eve. I already tried. If you will convince every newbie which you met in that than of course they will poor as you described. *chuckles* You base your opinion on such limited experience and knowledge, that is not wise.
Ok here is a tip, you can make more ISK from non combat exploration than you can from combat exploration. Research it and find the right places to explore.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9348
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 22:05:08 -
[3887] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Moac Tor wrote: You won't be able to afford them unless you plan on a career in corp theft and scamming.
Keep selling that, bro. Less competition for the people who will be buying them dirt cheap when 100,000 characters worth of SP packs hit the market in the first week this goes live. You are not a new player. You know this to be true. It's how it always happens when a marketable item is introduced for the first time. It is way overproduced a to the point where you can barely give it away. That is when I'll be doing my buying. Not a month later when they are all hoarded by speculators. Mr Epeen Yes initially you are right the price will be steep drop, and then as the big alliances and speculators start buying them up the price will rise. Lets say as a rough estimate it will drop to 200mil and stabilise at 300mil for 500k, would you advice a new player to grind 300mil (considering how long it will take) for another 500mil SP? That doesn't sound like a very enjoyable way to play the game in my view. Instead you could open up more possibilities and options that are available to new players with low skill which is what CCP have been doing. So much altruistic worry for new players in this thread.
Where is that when y'all are laughing at them because they can't earn a PLEX in an hour when they start a thread about the 1.2B price of the things these days?
Yet here you are. All concerned because of the trauma grinding 300M will cause them. Possibly driving them out of the game. Just stop this ****. It's unbecoming of even the low standards we've come to expect here in the EVE-O forums.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
241
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 22:10:10 -
[3888] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Moac Tor wrote: You won't be able to afford them unless you plan on a career in corp theft and scamming.
Keep selling that, bro. Less competition for the people who will be buying them dirt cheap when 100,000 characters worth of SP packs hit the market in the first week this goes live. You are not a new player. You know this to be true. It's how it always happens when a marketable item is introduced for the first time. It is way overproduced a to the point where you can barely give it away. That is when I'll be doing my buying. Not a month later when they are all hoarded by speculators. Mr Epeen Yes initially you are right the price will be steep drop, and then as the big alliances and speculators start buying them up the price will rise. Lets say as a rough estimate it will drop to 200mil and stabilise at 300mil for 500k, would you advice a new player to grind 300mil (considering how long it will take) for another 500mil SP? That doesn't sound like a very enjoyable way to play the game in my view. Instead you could open up more possibilities and options that are available to new players with low skill which is what CCP have been doing. So much altruistic worry for new players in this thread. Where is that when y'all are laughing at them because they can't earn a PLEX in an hour when they start a thread about the 1.2B price of the things these days? Yet here you are. All concerned because of the trauma grinding 300M will cause them. Possibly driving them out of the game. Just stop this ****. It's unbecoming of even the low standards we've come to expect here in the EVE-O forums. Mr Epeen Believe it or not I do actually take an interest in new players having a good experience. For a start I have recruited newer players myself and taught them the basics. Also it is not altruistic at all, if eve is successful by bringing in new players then the game gets more investment and is more enjoyable for everyone who plays. As a shrewd businessman yourself you should also recognise this.
The reason I am opposed to this idea though isn't just on behalf on newer players, it will be detrimental to everyone.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
135
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 22:11:03 -
[3889] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:ColdBeauty wrote:Moac Tor wrote:I can definitley see why the leaders of PL, goons, and others are so fiercely in favour of this. Exactly what I thought as soon as Elise Randolph went on the charm offensive on reddit and various goons started backing this on the forum. They can go **** themselves. They're just as bad as all the miners who whined about barge HP until CCP finally caved and buffed it. A bit off topic, but depending on who you listen to the mining barge buff was also Goons. |
Ares Strangelove
Rosyme Industries
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 22:12:49 -
[3890] - Quote
The majority of veterans I've spoken with support new player retention and keeping them interested in the game. Since we're so far ahead, why not give the new bros some way to actually catch up. I think this is a perfect way for a newbie to get into that doctrine ship, or next ship they really anticipated.... Without the 50 day wait time to fly it properly!
On top of that diminishing returns keeps everything in balance: You cant destroy an alt to TURBOCHARGE your superultradeathmachineubermonsterslayer360noscopelulululzscrubkid Main character with 50mil++ skillpoints. Because of these diminishing returns. Its just not worth it, might as well just use character bazaar.
TLDR: Keep newbros interested. You have my vote. |
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
240
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 22:13:11 -
[3891] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Having thought about this for a couple of days, I still think the current design is poor, although I agree with the underlying reasons for change.
The strong message I got from the devblog was about player control, progression for new players and fixing aspects of the character bazaar.
But, a large part of the reaction to it has been an interpretation that this is a money grab and a shift towards p2w.
So assuming that it isn't intended as a money grab or a shift towards p2w, I think there is another option that does achieve greater control for players and progression for new players.
When the pre-requisities to fit rigs was removed, everyone in the community rejoiced. Anyone could fit any rig to a ship and get the benefit of having that rig fit. However, not having the skill trained meant that they suffered the full drawback of the rig also.
I personally think this is a better model to use when trying to increase control and allow faster progression for new players.
That's exactly the outcome that the rig fitting changes achieved.
So I personally think a better approach would be to remove the pre-requisites to fly any ship or use any module; but in doing so, you get access to the basic attributes, but none of the bonuses until you train the skills.
So a day old character would be able to jump into a HAC and fit it with T2 guns, but wouldn't gain any of the benefit from training the cruiser or HAC skills, nor the benefit of having the gunnery support skills trained.
They'd gain greater progression and have more control (as all players would), but the associated skills would still provide a more ideal situation, just as they do with fitting rigs.
That would probably be a bigger project and there's probably skills that could be consolidated and removed from the game, but as an overall approach, I think it provides a better outcome and is much more in line with an approach to change that the community all praised.
You know better than that. |
Edlorna Tinebe
The Elerium Trust
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 22:22:03 -
[3892] - Quote
Wow. Nearly 200 pages in under four days. I don't have nearly enough time to read all of them. The first fifteen pages were enough to get a sense of things...
I'll join in by saying, like several others have, that I don't object to the skill-extraction market in principle. I doubt very much that, if this had been a post instead about JUST wiping the name and corp history from a recently-bought toon on the character bazaar, we'd have quite as much complaining. Some, to be sure. But not nearly as much. Skill points have been sold for money for as long as the character bazaar has existed. I don't think the proposed system is any worse.
I do have to laugh at the number of people saying they'd love to sell their "worthless" mining and Orca skills.
My only concern for this proposal was brought up somewhere around page 15 of this thread: Perception. Because the character bazaar is not very well-documented - a hidden feature - many players (myself included) don't find out it exists until they've been around for a few months and have one or two skills trained to Level V. This new system may not be materially different from the character bazaar, but it creates the perception of pay-to-win. My parents frequently repeated to me that "the appearance of impropriety is more dangerous than the reality of impropriety," and I would caution CCP the same way:
Imagine there is a new player. This new player - let's call him Jimmy - tries a little bit of everything. He does some mining in highsec. He runs some L1 missions. He accidentally wanders into a lowsec system in his terribad T1 hauler fit and promptly gets blown to bits by evil, wicked pirates. Yarrr. Jimmy eventually gets enough standing with his mission corp to run L2 and L3 missions, but his skillpoints are lagging behind. Jimmy played his heart out for two weeks, he loves EVE, and he managed to save a whole 25 million ISK to fit out a cruiser. He's eager to move on up in the world. But he can't fly a cruiser yet. In fact, there is no action Jimmy can take to work towards his dream of flying an effective cruiser. He's stuck.
Now, because ALL of the players are restricted the same way, Jimmy doesn't feel so bad. It's part of the grim reality of New Eden, and he just has to be patient. Explore more of EVE, do what you can with the skills you have, etc... Eventually, Jimmy gets tired of waiting, buys and fits a cruiser with barely enough skill points to sit in the damn thing, but not enough skills to actually make it work. Jimmy gets his shiny new Vexor blown to bits by rats, and loses everything. It's a harsh lesson; skill points matter, and EVE is a game in which patience is both necessary and rewarded.
(In case you can't tell, I was that player named Jimmy!)
Imagine how much worse it would be for Jimmy if he found out it were possible to buy skill points on the open market, before the even greater lesson of "player skill" sunk in. That situation of being stuck, waiting and paying for game time while you wait for skill points to do the missions you've already earned the standings for... It would just SCREAM greed on the part of CCP. The old system was harsh, but it was fair. It was enforced ruthlessly. Nevermind the part where Jimmy could invite some friends and team up to run those L3 missions as a fleet. Nevermind the part where implants are sold for hundreds of millions of ISK to increase training speed. Nevermind the part where Jimmy could have paid $100 for a character with the skills to run a battleship. It doesn't matter that the old system wasn't as rigid as it appeared, because it appeared rigid.
Bleh. Time to stop myself.
TLDR: I'm okay with the proposed system. It's no different than it was before. But it appears different, and that appearance may matter more than the reality of the mechanics involved. Tread carefully. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
240
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 22:32:10 -
[3893] - Quote
No it IS different, but some folks can't or don't want to see the difference. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1649
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 22:40:27 -
[3894] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:No it IS different, but some folks can't or don't want to see the difference. Yes, it's different, in ways of unquantifiable significance of consequence on a per character and buyer basis. Yet still it's commonly practiced suggesting that those consequences are not highly significant and thus not meaningful enough to be a strong counterargument. |
Don Pera Saissore
55
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 22:47:58 -
[3895] - Quote
NO!
Only the old players will benefit from this because they are capable of earning enough ISK to constantly inject SP no matter how diminishing the returns are.
SP is more valuable then ISK because you can acquire more ISK in a certain time frame.
I am against any kind of modification of the current training system. It is unique and a big part of this game. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
242
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 22:49:47 -
[3896] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:No it IS different, but some folks can't or don't want to see the difference. Yes, it's different, in ways of unquantifiable significance of consequence on a per character and buyer basis. Yet still it's commonly practiced suggesting that those consequences are not highly significant and thus not meaningful enough to be a strong counterargument.
Lets play two games of chess:
- first one I win because I put in more effort and I'm simply better
- second one I win because I'm STILL better as such but I also switched out a pawn for a second queen, making it all a bit silly
Technically it's the same, I won both times because I'm "better" but that second win is somehow not cool. If you WANT to ignore that switch, because it suits ones agenda, then you could just state that the outcome is the same because the players are the same but we both know that there's a "that's just not right" thingy going on.
On top of that I had to pay money to make that queen switch and if I'd really want to I'd have replaced all pawns with queens. Would you still enjoy playing against me and would you still have faith in the world chess federation for allowing that "buy a queen" nonsense? |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9349
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 22:54:08 -
[3897] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:No it IS different, but some folks can't or don't want to see the difference. Yes, it's different, in ways of unquantifiable significance of consequence on a per character and buyer basis. Yet still it's commonly practiced suggesting that those consequences are not highly significant and thus not meaningful enough to be a strong counterargument. Here's what I'm thinking.
My daughter this morning was singing the kookaburra song and now it's stuck in my head. It's skewing my entire world view. How the hell can you make angry forum posts with that running through your head?
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1327
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 23:07:34 -
[3898] - Quote
If this was just about getting the new guys getting into bigger\better ships quicker then why not this below? It doesn't damage one of the key principles in EVE, favours no-one but new guys as there's an age limit and no massive jack in PLEX prices.
This, this right here
Advanced Cerebral Accelerator
- is already developed
- already in game
- would be quicker to implement
- can't be abused by older players
- Cerebral accelerators are destroyed upon clone-jump, but will otherwise remain, even if your capsule is destroyed.
- They (CCP) could then spend good Dev time on bringing the Char Bazaar in-game in the UI. Thus you kill two birds with one stone and everyone wins.
Ah, there's the flaw, it doesn't require more PLEX<>Aurum so no extra income stream for literally butchering what I think is one of the key foundations of EVE Online: choices equal consequences.
Maximus Aerelius wrote:Lost pages back but this: Maximus Aerelius wrote:There are already in-game items to help new players called Cerebral Accelerators albeit with severe character age restrictions. Lift the bar a little more on the age that these will work at and add them a bit more to loots\DEDs\Data and\or Relic sites to make them more available. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say give them it as a starter item but link in how to use it and what it's for. There are far better ways to get new guys into ships faster than this. The best of which is this: Advanced Cerebral AcceleratorThis booster will cease to function for pilots who have been registered for more than 7 days. Bonuses: +17 to all attributes+17 to ALL attributes. Give that to a new starter from Day 1 or even bump it to +25 to ALL attributes Benefits:It kicks in from Day 1 Training is amplified so skilling is quicker. They don't skip the content that comes from finding your feet but get to toddle quicker It's free from the start You could seed more so they are available on the market ie new player friendly corps (E-UNI etc) can buy them in Data\Relic\Combat sites or in special mission drops\DED sites\COSMOS It stimulates the economy You still have the choices equal consequences so key to EVE Online Free the dev time required for the £££ for SP and bring the Character Bazaar in-house to the EVE UI Drawbacks No increase demand for PLEX\Aurum so price doesn't increase You'd have to write a new tutorial on boosters\implants\accelerators or have Aura tell them about the thing that's in their head. Just some thoughts I'd had. Carry on EDIT: And this from the wiki: Please note: Cerebral accelerators are destroyed upon clone-jump, but will otherwise remain, even if your capsule is destroyed.If that doesn't encourage some PvP then what will. All other implants apart from 'Golden Pods' are destroyed on pod-kill.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
|
Edlorna Tinebe
The Elerium Trust
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 23:07:42 -
[3899] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:No it IS different, but some folks can't or don't want to see the difference. Yes, it's different, in ways of unquantifiable significance of consequence on a per character and buyer basis. Yet still it's commonly practiced suggesting that those consequences are not highly significant and thus not meaningful enough to be a strong counterargument. Lets play two games of chess: - first one I win because I put in more effort and I'm simply better - second one I win because I'm STILL better as such but I also switched out a pawn for a second queen before the game even started, making it all a bit silly Technically it's the same, I won both times because I'm "better" but that second win is somehow not cool. If you WANT to ignore that switch, because it suits ones agenda, then you could just state that the outcome is the same because the players are the same but we both know that there's a "that's just not right" thingy going on. On top of that I had to pay money to make that queen switch and if I really wanted to I could have replaced all pawns with queens. Would you still enjoy playing against me and would you still have faith in the world chess federation for allowing that "buy a queen" nonsense? Would it completely destroy the whole concept of chess?
That analogy... doesn't even come close to mapping onto the proposal being discussed. In fact, I don't think it's possible to make a chess-based analogy that would. Chess is a turn-based board game that has been refined over the centuries explicitly to be fair. The only difference between players is supposed to be player skill, and a coin flip to decide who goes first. EVE is never fair. Any argument against the new system that is based the new system being "unfair" is going to fail because we're talking about EVE. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
245
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 23:13:50 -
[3900] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Lets play two games of chess:
- first one I win because I put in more effort and I'm simply better
- second one I win because I'm STILL better as such but I also switched out a pawn for a second queen before the game even started, making it all a bit silly
Technically it's the same, I won both times because I'm "better" but that second win is somehow not cool. If you WANT to ignore that switch, because it suits ones agenda, then you could just state that the outcome is the same because the players are the same but we both know that there's a "that's just not right" thingy going on.
On top of that I had to pay money to make that queen switch and if I'd really want to I'd have replaced all pawns with queens. Would you still enjoy playing against me and would you still have faith in the world chess federation for allowing that "buy a queen" nonsense? The scenario you created doesn't actually parallel this idea. Sure, there is a distinction you created, but it doesn't match the distinction created here. Basically there was and can be no game in which you didn't start with the second queen, because you can't turn your SP off, thus there was no "even" game to begin with. Now you're saying that since you "think" you would have beaten him even if he had 2 queens, he shouldn't be able to because it won't make him better. But that doesn't matter because in the game we're actually playing he might want 2 queens just to have 2 queens, not to beat you specifically or anyone else. And the great thing is that he still doesn't have to pay real money. People trying to gain SP can't spend real money on it. The proposal doesn't offer that possibility, a fact which you seem to conveniently miss with great consistency.
You should probably reread what you just wrote because it makes no sense at all. |
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
245
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 23:17:05 -
[3901] - Quote
Edlorna Tinebe wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:No it IS different, but some folks can't or don't want to see the difference. Yes, it's different, in ways of unquantifiable significance of consequence on a per character and buyer basis. Yet still it's commonly practiced suggesting that those consequences are not highly significant and thus not meaningful enough to be a strong counterargument. Lets play two games of chess: - first one I win because I put in more effort and I'm simply better - second one I win because I'm STILL better as such but I also switched out a pawn for a second queen before the game even started, making it all a bit silly Technically it's the same, I won both times because I'm "better" but that second win is somehow not cool. If you WANT to ignore that switch, because it suits ones agenda, then you could just state that the outcome is the same because the players are the same but we both know that there's a "that's just not right" thingy going on. On top of that I had to pay money to make that queen switch and if I really wanted to I could have replaced all pawns with queens. Would you still enjoy playing against me and would you still have faith in the world chess federation for allowing that "buy a queen" nonsense? Would it completely destroy the whole concept of chess? That analogy... doesn't even come close to mapping onto the proposal being discussed. In fact, I don't think it's possible to make a chess-based analogy that would. Chess is a turn-based board game that has been refined over the centuries explicitly to be fair. The only difference between players is supposed to be player skill, and a coin flip to decide who goes first. EVE is never fair. Any argument against the new system that is based the new system being "unfair" is going to fail because we're talking about EVE.
I see you're avoiding the actual intention of the analogy and purely, feverishly, focus on semantics. I wonder why that is.
|
Edlorna Tinebe
The Elerium Trust
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 23:18:11 -
[3902] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Lets play two games of chess:
- first one I win because I put in more effort and I'm simply better
- second one I win because I'm STILL better as such but I also switched out a pawn for a second queen before the game even started, making it all a bit silly
Technically it's the same, I won both times because I'm "better" but that second win is somehow not cool. If you WANT to ignore that switch, because it suits ones agenda, then you could just state that the outcome is the same because the players are the same but we both know that there's a "that's just not right" thingy going on.
On top of that I had to pay money to make that queen switch and if I'd really want to I'd have replaced all pawns with queens. Would you still enjoy playing against me and would you still have faith in the world chess federation for allowing that "buy a queen" nonsense? The scenario you created doesn't actually parallel this idea. Sure, there is a distinction you created, but it doesn't match the distinction created here. Basically there was and can be no game in which you didn't start with the second queen, because you can't turn your SP off, thus there was no "even" game to begin with. Now you're saying that since you "think" you would have beaten him even if he had 2 queens, he shouldn't be able to because it won't make him better. But that doesn't matter because in the game we're actually playing he might want 2 queens just to have 2 queens, not to beat you specifically or anyone else. And the great thing is that he still doesn't have to pay real money. People trying to gain SP can't spend real money on it. The proposal doesn't offer that possibility, a fact which you seem to conveniently miss with great consistency. You should probably reread what you just wrote because it makes no sense at all.
What he said makes more sense than your original statement. In your (horrible) analogy, skill points = second queen. In EVE, the person who's played longer will always have more skillpoints than his opponent. Therefore, the person who has played chess the longest will always have more queens than the new guy, even if the new guy is a better chess player. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1649
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 23:18:12 -
[3903] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:If this was just about getting the new guys getting into bigger\better ships quicker then why not this below? It doesn't damage of the key principles in EVE, favours no-one but new guys as there's an age limit and no massive jack in PLEX prices. This, this right here Advanced Cerebral Accelerator
- is already developed
- already in game
- would be quicker to implement
- can't be abused by older players
- They (CCP) could then spend good Dev time on bringing the Char Bazaar in game the UI. Thus you kill two brids with one stone and everyone wins.
Ah, there's the flaw, it doesn't require more PLEX<>Aurum so no extra income stream for literally butchering what I think is one of the key foundations of EVE Online: choices equal consequences. Maximus Aerelius wrote:Lost pages back but this: Maximus Aerelius wrote:There are already in-game items to help new players called Cerebral Accelerators albeit with severe character age restrictions. Lift the bar a little more on the age that these will work at and add them a bit more to loots\DEDs\Data and\or Relic sites to make them more available. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say give them it as a starter item but link in how to use it and what it's for. There are far better ways to get new guys into ships faster than this. The best of which is this: Advanced Cerebral AcceleratorThis booster will cease to function for pilots who have been registered for more than 7 days. Bonuses: +17 to all attributes+17 to ALL attributes. Give that to a new starter from Day 1 or even bump it to +25 to ALL attributes Benefits:It kicks in from Day 1 Training is amplified so skilling is quicker. They don't skip the content that comes from finding your feet but get to toddle quicker It's free from the start You could seed more so they are available on the market ie new player friendly corps (E-UNI etc) can buy them in Data\Relic\Combat sites or in special mission drops\DED sites\COSMOS It stimulates the economy You still have the choices equal consequences so key to EVE Online Free the dev time required for the £££ for SP and bring the Character Bazaar in-house to the EVE UI Drawbacks No increase demand for PLEX\Aurum so price doesn't increase You'd have to write a new tutorial on boosters\implants\accelerators or have Aura tell them about the thing that's in their head. Just some thoughts I'd had. Carry on EDIT: And this from the wiki: Please note: Cerebral accelerators are destroyed upon clone-jump, but will otherwise remain, even if your capsule is destroyed.If that doesn't encourage some PvP then what will. All other implants apart from 'Golden Pods' are destroyed on pod-kill. This idea doesn't actually solve the issues the proposal was designed to address.
It doesn't: a) Complement the character Bazaar functionality in any way b) Supplant the need for large investments to procure a more functional character c) Prevent abuses from older players creating low SP alts with greater speed with no additional cost d) Stimulate the economy due to limited time use and thus no lasting demand (which invalidates their worth as drops) |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1649
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 23:20:25 -
[3904] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:You should probably reread what you just wrote because it makes no sense at all. You should work on your comprehension. It's funny how someone without your bias understood it, but you can't. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
245
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 23:22:44 -
[3905] - Quote
Edlorna Tinebe wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Lets play two games of chess:
- first one I win because I put in more effort and I'm simply better
- second one I win because I'm STILL better as such but I also switched out a pawn for a second queen before the game even started, making it all a bit silly
Technically it's the same, I won both times because I'm "better" but that second win is somehow not cool. If you WANT to ignore that switch, because it suits ones agenda, then you could just state that the outcome is the same because the players are the same but we both know that there's a "that's just not right" thingy going on.
On top of that I had to pay money to make that queen switch and if I'd really want to I'd have replaced all pawns with queens. Would you still enjoy playing against me and would you still have faith in the world chess federation for allowing that "buy a queen" nonsense? The scenario you created doesn't actually parallel this idea. Sure, there is a distinction you created, but it doesn't match the distinction created here. Basically there was and can be no game in which you didn't start with the second queen, because you can't turn your SP off, thus there was no "even" game to begin with. Now you're saying that since you "think" you would have beaten him even if he had 2 queens, he shouldn't be able to because it won't make him better. But that doesn't matter because in the game we're actually playing he might want 2 queens just to have 2 queens, not to beat you specifically or anyone else. And the great thing is that he still doesn't have to pay real money. People trying to gain SP can't spend real money on it. The proposal doesn't offer that possibility, a fact which you seem to conveniently miss with great consistency. You should probably reread what you just wrote because it makes no sense at all. What he said makes more sense than your original statement. In your (horrible) analogy, skill points = second queen. In EVE, the person who's played longer will always have more skillpoints than his opponent. Therefore, the person who has played chess the longest will always have more queens than the new guy, even if the new guy is a better chess player.
You're, again, missing the point. That queen is an advantage outside the normal rules. NOT SP as such. But keep trying.
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9349
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 23:23:04 -
[3906] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:No it IS different, but some folks can't or don't want to see the difference. Yes, it's different, in ways of unquantifiable significance of consequence on a per character and buyer basis. Yet still it's commonly practiced suggesting that those consequences are not highly significant and thus not meaningful enough to be a strong counterargument. Lets play two games of chess: - first one I win because I put in more effort and I'm simply better - second one I win because I'm STILL better as such but I also switched out a pawn for a second queen before the game even started, making it all a bit silly Technically it's the same, I won both times because I'm "better" but that second win is somehow not cool. If you WANT to ignore that switch, because it suits ones agenda, then you could just state that the outcome is the same because the players are the same but we both know that there's a "that's just not right" thingy going on. On top of that I had to pay money to make that queen switch and if I really wanted to I could have replaced all pawns with queens. Would you still enjoy playing against me and would you still have faith in the world chess federation for allowing that "buy a queen" nonsense? Would it completely destroy the whole concept of chess? The third game (and every game after it) you lost because your opponents manufacturing line hammered out seven rooks to replace the pawns he salvaged. Then hired a third party to remote rep all this pieces.
Maybe if you hadn't spent all your time whining and learned all the rules, you'd have fared better.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 23:24:58 -
[3907] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:If this was just about getting the new guys getting into bigger\better ships quicker then why not this below? It doesn't damage one of the key principles in EVE, favours no-one but new guys as there's an age limit and no massive jack in PLEX prices. This, this right here Advanced Cerebral Accelerator
- is already developed
- already in game
- would be quicker to implement
- can't be abused by older players
- Cerebral accelerators are destroyed upon clone-jump, but will otherwise remain, even if your capsule is destroyed.
- They (CCP) could then spend good Dev time on bringing the Char Bazaar in-game in the UI. Thus you kill two birds with one stone and everyone wins.
Ah, there's the flaw, it doesn't require more PLEX<>Aurum so no extra income stream for literally butchering what I think is one of the key foundations of EVE Online: choices equal consequences. Maximus Aerelius wrote:Lost pages back but this: Maximus Aerelius wrote:There are already in-game items to help new players called Cerebral Accelerators albeit with severe character age restrictions. Lift the bar a little more on the age that these will work at and add them a bit more to loots\DEDs\Data and\or Relic sites to make them more available. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say give them it as a starter item but link in how to use it and what it's for. There are far better ways to get new guys into ships faster than this. The best of which is this: Advanced Cerebral AcceleratorThis booster will cease to function for pilots who have been registered for more than 7 days. Bonuses: +17 to all attributes+17 to ALL attributes. Give that to a new starter from Day 1 or even bump it to +25 to ALL attributes Benefits:It kicks in from Day 1 Training is amplified so skilling is quicker. They don't skip the content that comes from finding your feet but get to toddle quicker It's free from the start You could seed more so they are more available on the market ie new player friendly corps (E-UNI etc) can buy them, Seed them in Data\Relic\Combat sites or in special mission drops\DED sites\COSMOS It stimulates the economy You still have the choices equal consequences so key to EVE Online Free the dev time required for the '£££ for SP' and bring the Character Bazaar in-house to the EVE UI Drawbacks No increase demand for PLEX\Aurum so price doesn't increase You'd have to write a new tutorial on boosters\implants\accelerators or have Aura tell them about the thing that's in their head. Just some thoughts I'd had. Carry on EDIT: And this from the wiki: Please note: Cerebral accelerators are destroyed upon clone-jump, but will otherwise remain, even if your capsule is destroyed.If that doesn't encourage some PvP then what will. All other implants apart from 'Golden Pods' are destroyed on pod-kill.
I'd like to say I'm all for CCP's new skillpoint idea. However I like this one too. Instead of limiting this accelerator to the age of the character I'd like it be capped to a certain amount of skillpoints. Ideally have it be +25 attributes up to 30mil skillpoints then drop to +17 up to 50 mil skillpoints after that it loses its effect due to the amount of intense training the capsuleer has gone through or something to that effect. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1649
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 23:27:07 -
[3908] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:You're, again, missing the point. That queen is an advantage outside the normal rules. NOT SP as such. But keep trying. Then your analogy is wholly irrelevant. What's being debated is the packaging and sale of SP within EvE. Chess parallels with no applicability are completely meaningless.
|
Edlorna Tinebe
The Elerium Trust
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 23:27:52 -
[3909] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:No it IS different, but some folks can't or don't want to see the difference. Yes, it's different, in ways of unquantifiable significance of consequence on a per character and buyer basis. Yet still it's commonly practiced suggesting that those consequences are not highly significant and thus not meaningful enough to be a strong counterargument. Lets play two games of chess: - first one I win because I put in more effort and I'm simply better - second one I win because I'm STILL better as such but I also switched out a pawn for a second queen before the game even started, making it all a bit silly Technically it's the same, I won both times because I'm "better" but that second win is somehow not cool. If you WANT to ignore that switch, because it suits ones agenda, then you could just state that the outcome is the same because the players are the same but we both know that there's a "that's just not right" thingy going on. On top of that I had to pay money to make that queen switch and if I really wanted to I could have replaced all pawns with queens. Would you still enjoy playing against me and would you still have faith in the world chess federation for allowing that "buy a queen" nonsense? Would it completely destroy the whole concept of chess? The third game (and every game after it) you lost because your opponents manufacturing line hammered out seven rooks to replace the pawns he salvaged. Then hired a third party to remote rep all this pieces. Maybe if you hadn't spent all your time whining and learned all the rules, you'd have fared better. Mr Epeen
Hilarious AND on-point!
But what if the guy with seven rooks has more time to play chess than the guy who bought a second queen? That wouldn't be fair either. The rooks guy is building rooks all day, while the Queen guy has to work a real job all day. So the Queen guy buys a second king that he keeps back on the highsec board, just in case he loses the primary king. Rooks guy teams up with his three buddies, each of whom gets a king of their own, and they collectively get three turns each turn the Queen guy gets, no matter how many queens he buys. So they roflstomp the Queen guy.
Wait. What the hell were we talking about? |
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1327
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 23:29:44 -
[3910] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:This idea doesn't actually solve the issues the proposal was designed to address.
It doesn't: a) Complement the character Bazaar functionality in any way b) Supplant the need for large investments to procure a more functional character c) Prevent abuses from older players creating low SP alts with greater speed with no additional cost d) Stimulate the economy due to limited time use and thus no lasting demand (which invalidates their worth as drops)
a) How does PLEX\Aurum for SP complement the character Bazaar at all? I've never been a fan of the Char Bazaar (yes I see why CCP brought it in) but with that there is choice and consequence. Like everything else in EVE, you research, you learn and you grow. b) More functional is pretty much saying on-demand but this does accelerate the learning rate c) This 'proposal' is so much more open to abuse by older players. At least this shuts the door of after a while d) If there's player turnover (which there is) and they get the first one for free they may just grab some for the other 2 char slots. People will always make alts to specialise in certain things, spies, PvP and PvE etc. Hell, I've even used these for a few alts I wanted to get up to speed quick.
Isn't that their purpose? Wasn't that the intention when they were introduced?
Still haven't said why using existing functionality as presented is worse than this 'proposal' though.
So when these new players that buy the SP injectors get to 50mil SP and then have the loooong trains how many do you think are going to stick around? It's like flying around in a Leopard and then you get put in a Mastodon and everything seems 4 times as slow.But you've done it on the back of one of the things that a lot of people who have stuck around for years value.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1649
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 23:39:38 -
[3911] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:This idea doesn't actually solve the issues the proposal was designed to address.
It doesn't: a) Complement the character Bazaar functionality in any way b) Supplant the need for large investments to procure a more functional character c) Prevent abuses from older players creating low SP alts with greater speed with no additional cost d) Stimulate the economy due to limited time use and thus no lasting demand (which invalidates their worth as drops) a) How does PLEX\Aurum for SP complement the character Bazaar at all? I've never been a fan of the Char Bazaar (yes I see why CCP brought it in) but with that there is choice and consequence. Like everything else in EVE, you research, you learn and you grow. b) More functional is pretty much saying on-demand but this does accelerate the learning rate c) This 'proposal' is so much more open to abuse by older players. At least this shuts the door of after a while d) If there's player turnover (which there is) and they get the first one for free they may just grab some for the other 2 char slots. People will always make alts to specialise in certain things, spies, PvP and PvE etc. Hell, I've even used these for a few alts I wanted to get up to speed quick. Isn't that their purpose? Wasn't that the intention when they were introduced? Still haven't said why using existing functionality as presented is worse than this 'proposal' though. So when these new players that buy the SP injectors get to 50mil SP and then have the loooong trains how many do you think are going to stick around? It's like flying around in a Leopard and then you get put in a Mastodon and everything seems 4 times as slow.But you've done it on the back of one of the things that a lot of people who have stuck around for years value. a) This isn't PLEX/AUR for SP. A number of people keep characterizing it as that, though they do so incorrectly as you can't get SP by spending PLEX/AUR (And the argument that one might need PLEX/AUR to afford it makes everything in game above x isk pricepoint P2W). b) That wasn't a response to the actual objection I brought up, but that aside the goal here isn't to accelerate overall training and isn't targetted at just characters under 7 days old for ~2 weeks of normal training. c) No, it's not, the diminishing returns pretty much ensure that d) So we have a total possible demand of 1 per char, which is exactly what I based the objection of being economically worthless on
And yeah, that's the intention of the accelerator, NOT the proposal. Those don't overlap (which is as exactly why existing functionality is worse than the proposal at doing what the proposal is trying to do - that's just plain not what it does).
And you think when after 7 days players see their training speed half and then that they can't get it back while still around 2m SP, with a fraction of the possibilities of 50m SP and they'll stick around? |
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1328
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 23:49:49 -
[3912] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Maximus Aerelius wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:This idea doesn't actually solve the issues the proposal was designed to address.
It doesn't: a) Complement the character Bazaar functionality in any way b) Supplant the need for large investments to procure a more functional character c) Prevent abuses from older players creating low SP alts with greater speed with no additional cost d) Stimulate the economy due to limited time use and thus no lasting demand (which invalidates their worth as drops) a) How does PLEX\Aurum for SP complement the character Bazaar at all? I've never been a fan of the Char Bazaar (yes I see why CCP brought it in) but with that there is choice and consequence. Like everything else in EVE, you research, you learn and you grow. b) More functional is pretty much saying on-demand but this does accelerate the learning rate c) This 'proposal' is so much more open to abuse by older players. At least this shuts the door of after a while d) If there's player turnover (which there is) and they get the first one for free they may just grab some for the other 2 char slots. People will always make alts to specialise in certain things, spies, PvP and PvE etc. Hell, I've even used these for a few alts I wanted to get up to speed quick. Isn't that their purpose? Wasn't that the intention when they were introduced? Still haven't said why using existing functionality as presented is worse than this 'proposal' though. So when these new players that buy the SP injectors get to 50mil SP and then have the loooong trains how many do you think are going to stick around? It's like flying around in a Leopard and then you get put in a Mastodon and everything seems 4 times as slow.But you've done it on the back of one of the things that a lot of people who have stuck around for years value. a) This isn't PLEX/AUR for SP. A number of people keep characterizing it as that, though they do so incorrectly as you can't get SP by spending PLEX/AUR (And the argument that one might need PLEX/AUR to afford it makes everything in game above x isk pricepoint P2W). b) That wasn't a response to the actual objection I brought up, but that aside the goal here isn't to accelerate overall training and isn't targetted at just characters under 7 days old for ~2 weeks of normal training. c) No, it's not, the diminishing returns pretty much ensure that d) So we have a total possible demand of 1 per char, which is exactly what I based the objection of being economically worthless on And yeah, that's the intention of the accelerator, NOT the proposal. Those don't overlap (which is as exactly why existing functionality is worse than the proposal at doing what the proposal is trying to do - that's just plain not what it does). And you think when after 7 days players see their training speed half and then that they can't get it back while still around 2m SP, with a fraction of the possibilities of 50m SP and they'll stick around?
Seeing that you've missed my 'quote within a quote' the Accelerator idea includes "lifting the bar":
Maximus Aerelius wrote:...Lift the bar a little more on the age that these will work at and add them a bit more to loots\DEDs\Data and\or Relic sites to make them more available. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say give them it as a starter item but link in how to use it and what it's for. There are far better ways to get new guys into ships faster than this.
Essentially you lift the bar to weeks\months or total SP on char (taken form Leonardo Adami's post). The fact is that it's IG already, isn't off much use to the ISK or RL rich as you can't use it past X days\weeks or, if altered, Total SP on Char.
As for the one per char, sure, I see you're thinking there. But if it lasted X weeks\months the price on them may rise but if they are drops then supply might increase. The new guys would know about them, maybe some would go Exploration Career to find them and use\sell them to get better ships.
Basically, the thought was: It does what it says on the tin.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1649
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 23:56:13 -
[3913] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:Maximus Aerelius wrote:...Lift the bar a little more on the age that these will work at and add them a bit more to loots\DEDs\Data and\or Relic sites to make them more available. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say give them it as a starter item but link in how to use it and what it's for. There are far better ways to get new guys into ships faster than this. Essentially you lift the bar to weeks\months or total SP on char. The fact is that it's IG already, isn't off much use to the ISK or RL rich as you can't use it past X days\weeks or, if altered, Total SP on Char. As for the one per char, sure, I see you're thinking there. But if it lasted X weeks\months the price on them may rise but if they are drops then supply might increase. The new guys would know about them, maybe some would go Exploration Career to find them and use\sell them to get better ships. Basically, the thought was: It does what it says on the tin. Yup, I missed that part. That wrenches open the possibilities for abuse by older players for low SP alt creation. Also I'm not concerned about high prices, rather the prices will be low to the point of being worthless with unmoved stock due to only being usable for a short period in a character's life.
Also the idea of repeat customer's is odd because the target group for this would need to spend PLEX to take advantage of more than one or waste possible time training on their still low SP characters for different ones.
But it still has no tie in or alternative to the character Bazaar in the same way learning implants don't do the same already. |
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1328
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 00:04:34 -
[3914] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Maximus Aerelius wrote:Maximus Aerelius wrote:...Lift the bar a little more on the age that these will work at and add them a bit more to loots\DEDs\Data and\or Relic sites to make them more available. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say give them it as a starter item but link in how to use it and what it's for. There are far better ways to get new guys into ships faster than this. Essentially you lift the bar to weeks\months or total SP on char. The fact is that it's IG already, isn't off much use to the ISK or RL rich as you can't use it past X days\weeks or, if altered, Total SP on Char. As for the one per char, sure, I see you're thinking there. But if it lasted X weeks\months the price on them may rise but if they are drops then supply might increase. The new guys would know about them, maybe some would go Exploration Career to find them and use\sell them to get better ships. Basically, the thought was: It does what it says on the tin. Yup, I missed that part. That wrenches open the possibilities for abuse by older players for low SP alt creation. Also I'm not concerned about high prices, rather the prices will be low to the point of being worthless with unmoved stock due to only being usable for a short period in a character's life. Also the idea of repeat customer's is odd because the target group for this would need to spend PLEX to take advantage of more than one or waste possible time training on their still low SP characters for different ones. But it still has no tie in or alternative to the character Bazaar in the same way learning implants don't do the same already.
I have to say some valid points there.
As for spending PLEX, I imagine (taken from the proposal) that rather than spending the price of PLEX + SP Packet (unless you're selling your SP package at a loss) then it's ISK better spent on MCT and a Cerebral Accelerator no? I haven't done the maths on +17 on all attributes for training but I'm sure someone will.
Combine that +17 (I'm going with this as that's what it is currently) over X period and I'm pretty sure you'd get more SP than a SP Packet costing 1.3bn + SP package (500,000 unallocated skillpoints) cost no?
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1649
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 00:15:48 -
[3915] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:I have to say some valid points there.
As for spending PLEX, I imagine (taken from the proposal) that rather than spending the price of PLEX + SP Packet (unless you're selling your SP package at a loss) then it's ISK better spent on MCT and a Cerebral Accelerator no? I haven't done the maths on +17 on all attributes for training but I'm sure someone will.
Combine that +17 (I'm going with this as that's what it is currently) over X period and I'm pretty sure you'd get more SP than a SP Packet costing 1.3bn + SP package (500,000 unallocated skillpoints) cost no? The AUR price of an extractor isn't known yet, so best we can guess is that SP should be around 1/4th of a plex + extractor cost. At current conversions that's ~300m + the aur cost converted to isk (and that value being equal to a PLEX is completely ridiculous to the point of being IMHO beyond entertaining). That's the cost were looking at.
On the other hand a month long CE @ +17 attributes (which may also be a bad idea due to CCP seemingly wanting to phase out attributes) is +1530SP/H. That's an added 1,101,600 SP over 30days on top of what you would otherwise have, assuming no implants, less with implants. It's cheaper as you propose, or should be anyways, but potentially slower with a much lower cap even before diminishing returns kick in on the SP trading proposal.
I'll grant it's more accessible, but less effective. |
Soltys
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 01:35:20 -
[3916] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Canadian Fire wrote:All things considered it's not really such a horrible idea, but I still don't like it. If it is to be implemented, I would like to see a hard cap on it. IE you cannot inject SP on characters with over XX number of SP. Or some kind of balancing mechanic to make it so a day 1 char can get a big advantage, yes, but can't jump straight to all level 5 skills for $15,000 USD. At the very least I can catch up on some SP I missed when I wasn't able to sub I suppose. A hard cap seems to be a common request, and I think there may be some merit to that. We'll certainly look in to it. I'm not sure how to determine where that cap is though, if it's purely for prestige purposes. On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.
No hard cap, No soft cap.
You have balls to finally turn this antique pseudo-progression mechanics borrowed from antique mmos over a decade ago. It serves no purpose in this game, besides creating artificial wall. It never did anything more than that.
If you want to provide wall, do it naturally with ISK - so either turn SP into market commodity complementing ships, equipment and impleants with all current flaws (bloated ranks, costly prerequisities, linear bonuses, dirt cheap skillbooks) or fix it (lower ranks, sensible prerequisities, non-linear bonuses focused on level IVs, very expensive skillbooks). You chose the former.
PART 1/2 - ABOUT SP
1) SP doesn't mean commitment 2) SP doesn't measure any actual skill in this game 3) SP is an artificial wall 4) SP pool is bloated beyond any sensible limits
Re. 1
Quote:As you can see, this design favors skill transfers for younger characters and makes them very inefficient for older characters. WeGÇÖve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character.
This is incorrect. Being commited to some character is in no way related to having a lot of SP - it's just a side effect of that. Also what about someone that was inactive for a long time ? In such case a commitment would mean sticking to such character with large SP deficiency instead of visiting character bazaar.
Being commited to character simply means playing that character and sticking to it - that's all there is to it. SP is merely a byproduct of active subscription. Congratulations there, you have been subscribed to EvE for a decade - have a nice chunk of SP !
What the hell does it have in common in any way or form with commitment / loyalty / prestige ? Absolutely nothing.
Re. 2
To be good at EvE you have to dedicate your head first and foremost - learn, practice, don't repeat mistakes (or at least repeat them as little as possible ;) ). Whether it's in-game activity of any kind, spreadsheets or tool/website development. SP is completely orthogonal to it.
Re. 3
So what really is SP ?
It's a giant artificial timesink (or a notable ISK/$$$ shortcut through the character bazaar). It starts gently, then before you even notice you need 2 years before you can be on sub-equal grounds in subset of scenarios against other people. It could be a good guidance mixed with significant ISK wall if you had decided to fix it - but you chose not to do so. And over the years it became far too bloated (see the next point).
The whole semblance of progression it "provides" was borrowed from other mmos where it was used to deliberately slow down players (read: repetitive character grind making people chase a virtual carrot(s) on a stick) with obvious aim of keeping them in game as long as possible (p2p model) with as little effort as possible. Of course it still exists in current games - only there was subtle shift from character grind to gear grind .... same **** essentially, just numbers in different place(s).
And EvE being a new mmo on the block had to have some sort of that - so we got XP bar with a twist: it bots itself.
Re. 4
The SP bloat is gigantic. It was borderline "ok" in 2003, before T2, T3, bigger ships, more stuff needing more training (and usually higher skill ranks). If X got into (t1) cruiser, then he knew others will be in (t1) cruisers. Or (t1) frigates/battleships. Not blinged T3 cruisers with full skilled OGB [purchased] alt and 1b+ in head implants. Ships/modules/implants are a matter of wealth and experience - SP is artificial wall that simply is.
A simple character with 0 skills in science/industry/exploration/guns/drones/missiles/subsystems/ships/PI - but with decently developed supporting skills (without touching capitals and without extremes - so mostly IVs, some Vs, few IIIs) is 15m+ SP one the low end. Skills that basically make you feel not like a gimp while flying, fitting or fighting - and with ability to at least field some of T2 equipment (not all, and not T3).
Go into any of the remaining fields, try to be a bit flexible (with some stuff deliberately mandating cross training - e.g. pirate ships) and 50m starts looking like a common value. You need guns, drones, missiles, ships. You're far better choosing small ships, as otherwise bigger ship/guns/drones and relevant skill ranks will make you cry in a corner (and in such case you better narrowly specialize into one race, one weapon type, one ship class - anything more or any new imbalance meta that missed your specialization - well tough luck, please "learn" again).
If anything, this can be fixed as an alternative to the proposed SP transfer changes:
continued in 2nd part
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
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Soltys
26
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Posted - 2015.10.20 01:36:12 -
[3917] - Quote
If anything, this can be fixed as an alternative to the proposed SP transfer changes:
- ranks (anything x4 and higher needs serious look at or flat out trimming to x3 - with sole exception of maybe capitals++)
- no ship, module or skill should have V as a prerequisite, unless the prerequisite is rank 1 skill
- make skill gains non-linear, compacting majority of possible bonus into levels I-IV, with remaining 10% going into V. So instead of current linear spacing (20%-20%-20%-20%-20%) something like 30%-25%-20%-15%-10% would be better (so for example for typical 5% bonuse per skill level, that would translate to 7.5%, 6.25%, 5%, 3.75%, 2.5%
- hide skillbooks behind significantly bigger ISK wall - instead of SP timewall
Those 4 points if approached honestly, could make the whole SP trading a moot point - while still retaining SP concept.
PART 2 - ABOUT SP TRANSFERING
So we go commodity / market power way with SP changes. Good, then let's do it properly.
Firstly be honest and admit it's not aimed at new players. For a genuinly new player 300m+ isk is a fortune, with boring PvE "content" giving a mockery of rewards. Of course it gets better with time and experience. This feature is aimed at veterans and solid "intermediate" players that got hooked and can generate enough ISK in game for that to even be an option or liking the game enough to not be shy about throwing more $$$s at the screen. Now that we've cleared this misconception, lets move on.
Good thing overall: it shifts SP training from timesink to moneysink and ranks / prerequisities of skills (bigger SP pool for bigger stuff) fit well with "ISK rules EvE". Analogously to cost difference between t1/t2/t3/bling, smaller and bigger ships, etc.
brackets & diminishing returns
- (0 - 5) bracket makes no sense; 5m SP is nothing (roughly 2 months + trial time) and genuinely new players generally won't be interested in it at all
- (5 - 50) bracket; 20% penalty in the most important area for any player (see point (4) above and the issue of SP bloat) ?
- (50 - 80) bracket; 60% penalty in area where the player will be hitting most demanding and time consuming high-rank skills ?
- (80 - inf) bracket is arbitrary soft-cap; 300m-500m (depending on the price of AUR extractor) ISK per 50k SP ? Come on, this is insulting.
Get rid of brackets. Don't penalize high-sp characters because of confusing auto-botted SP pool with loyalty or skilled gameplay or prestige or whatever else it's commonly confused with (see points (1) - (3) above) - not even touching the subject of character bazaar (SP brothel ?). Besides, do you put soft-cap on character bazaar ?
But put some generic penalty across the board (sinks are good). Therefore what you could do is introduce skills from Neural Enchancement tree with *very expensive* skillbooks, and make players start with 100% penalty and no ability to use packs without skilling. For example:
- neurotransport (requires some IV and maybe V skills - biology, science, etc.) rank L; allows use of SP packs; decreases penalty by 4% per level
- neurotransport synchronization (requires neurotransport IV or V) rank M; lessens penalty by 15% per level
- neurotransport calibration (requires neurotransport IV or V) rank N; lessens penalty by 10% per level
Adjust L/M/N as necessary to have sensible initial timewall. Set skillbook prices to have sensible initial ISKwall.
Initial skill drops (at V) penalty to 80% (at V), the next skill drops (at V) penalty from 80% to 20%; the last skill will drop penalty (at V) to 10%. Essentially 100*(1-a*4%)(1-b*15%)(1-c*10%).
This (despite introducing even more skills) merges the whole idea nicely with game mechanics.
AUR thingy's price
Just ... don't be greedy with it.
Packs already start at PLEX/4 (as 2m/month is the monthly pool of properly prepared SP farmer) - not counting 5m SP bootstrap, expected profit and AUR thingy's price.
POTENTIAL ALTERNATIVE
Well, TBH if we going to have SP packs and character bazaar - then maybe also allow people to consume additional PLEXes for skill learning speedup (stackable to x10) - so we (players) can avoid trivial yet irritating logistics of making purely SP farming accounts for own use (with same endeffect) and you (CCP) don't get a barrel of pointless accounts in your db ? K.I.S.S.
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
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Kaivar Lancer
Placid Peace Corps
683
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 01:51:18 -
[3918] - Quote
SUPPORT!!!!
People sell their time mining or ratting or missioning. So why not sell their time when accumulating SP as well?
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
137
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 02:02:25 -
[3919] - Quote
Soltys wrote:You have balls to finally turn this antique pseudo-progression mechanics borrowed from antique mmos over a decade ago. It serves no purpose in this game, besides creating artificial wall. It never did anything more than that. Are... are you my alt?
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XIRUSPHERE
Deadly Intent.
289
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Posted - 2015.10.20 02:47:59 -
[3920] - Quote
Seen this game over many epochs. From beta to launch and in between many extended breaks. You did great things and expanded the horizons of the game in the beginning. Then you had mission creep and expanded your own horizons too far. You tried unsuccessfully to turn EVE into barbie fashion designer and ended up pissing a lot of people off. You really failed to learn anything from it other than you are consistently incompetent with PR and customer service. You squandered the treasure of a niche game with a niche market and ended up with multiple failed projects.
You temporarily began to work on your game again. I came back to what is essentially the Jove seeping into the game, Space Aids, a daft implementation of skins, and now you want to just sell SP straight off. I understand you guys have a problem with retention but this is not the answer. You need to slow down for once and stop yourselves.
My only question is how desperate are you right now? The character bazaar is a well moderated and nuanced way to get the kind of character you want, make it easier whatever but this is not the answer. You are going to massively inflate the cost of characters across the board. You are going to put even more strain on plex and cause further inflation. You are going to introduce a new and highly exploitable farming mechanic.
You are going to allow the ISK rich of eve to create armies of highly trained day old alts that will create chaos everywhere. You are going to allow people with trillions of ISK to grief this game in ways you never want to experience. You are opening this can of worms up when so many of your core concepts are terribly broken still. When you have people like Fozzie who's name is spoken like an expletive by the people I know since I came back.
I don't know if it's your water or all the hipsters and skeletons you hang out with but knock it off.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one can enjoy the same good things for the first time several times.
One will rarely err if extreme actions be ascribed to vanity, ordinary actions to habit, and mean actions to fear.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
193
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 02:48:57 -
[3921] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Maekchu wrote: You can exchange a Plex for AUR (3500 AUR to be specific). Meaning, this can still be attained with in-game currency only.
and the plex doesn-¦t mean money for ccp? try to view this from the company side How is this even a factor? Why is it seemingly a bad thing that CCP make any money? A well fed CCP can only further development of this game which we are all so passionate about.
Afraid not.
The game will began to rot once this 'NEW SYSTEM" is implemented. It would be like CCP performing surgery on a corpse...like Frankenstein.
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Morihei Akachi
Nishida Corporation
208
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Posted - 2015.10.20 02:55:02 -
[3922] - Quote
One or two aspects of this IGÇÖd not considered so far at The Nosy Gamer.
Still against it.
"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and donGÇÖt belong in Eve Online. (And as for GÇ£scopedGÇ¥ GǪ)
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Dynamus Deckerman
Perkone Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.10.20 03:16:20 -
[3923] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Dynamus Deckerman wrote:Big Lynx wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:[ Mr Epeen Isn't that brutally exhausting to type that Mr Epeen below every single stupid post?!? Some people just think they're just to cool that they got to do something like that to make you believe that they're so cool when they're not. EDIT: Mr. Epeen, I don't think you're cool at all, so you can stop doing that. I'm glad that I could be of assistance in helping you join the community. You have been subbed since late 2014 and thanks to me you have now made your very first contribution to the forums. I feel kind of special when things like this happen. Welcome to EVE, good citizen. Mr Epeen
My citizenship won't last that long with the direction this game is headed so don't let it go to your head Mr.Uncool.
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Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC 404 Alliance Not Found
215
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Posted - 2015.10.20 03:17:35 -
[3924] - Quote
I read through a decent amount of this threadanught and saw a few good ideas that do not get into P2W.
First off CCP needs to come clean with what they are intending this to accomplish. All missions need a task, purpose and an end state. What is the task and purpose here CCP?
Is it to make new players more competitive with older players? -Why not have new players start with a bit more SP. Maybe even let them gain some SP through the tutorials so they can put the SP into the skills that they really want. Or increase their training speed with the cerebral enhancers
Is it to make more money for the company? Raise subscription price...Bring back the EVE store. I want to buy a Caldari Rules the World T-Shirt and a Drake Model that I can hang from my ceiling and a number sticker that says 'my other car is a DRAKE!!!' Replace Drake with all sorts of other ships to make everyone happy. You could even do it with On Demand production to reduce inventory costs.
A few other points to consider speaking as a long time player with lots of SP. I will flat out quit and un sub all of my accounts if magically everyone else can immediately fly everything that I had to spend long years training. There needs to be a reward or incentive for older players, but that doesn't mean we need to force new players to wait forever to 'play' the game. But, we can certainly split the difference a bit and take out some of the straight time wasting skills or grant them to new players much faster... Weapon Upgrades and and Advanced Weapon Upgrades, CPU & PowerGrid skills. Even the Structure, Armor and Shield Size skills really don't affect too much and just waste time.
Also the Linear Progression versus logarithmic costs really could be looked at as well. Increasing Isk Cost for Skill books and reducing the training Rank of skills so there isn't months to train skill level 5 for the higher rank skills could be considered.
This just buying SP no matter the diminishing returns is just Pay to win with another name. If I'm space rich or have a lot of R64 Moons then I can just twink out my friends and pretty soon the bigger richer groups will have everyone flying Supers and Maxed out T3s. So what it might cost them 10-20 Billion Isk to get a new guy all skilled up for their doctrine, but they can afford that. Welcome to (insert Massive Alliance name) here's your (insert Doctrine Ship) and heres your pile of SP to learn on those skills. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
193
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Posted - 2015.10.20 03:48:29 -
[3925] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:Lost pages back but this: Maximus Aerelius wrote:There are already in-game items to help new players called Cerebral Accelerators albeit with severe character age restrictions. Lift the bar a little more on the age that these will work at and add them a bit more to loots\DEDs\Data and\or Relic sites to make them more available. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say give them it as a starter item but link in how to use it and what it's for. There are far better ways to get new guys into ships faster than this. The best of which is this: Advanced Cerebral AcceleratorThis booster will cease to function for pilots who have been registered for more than 7 days. Bonuses: +17 to all attributes+17 to ALL attributes. Give that to a new starter from Day 1 or even bump it to +25 to ALL attributes Benefits:It kicks in from Day 1 Training is amplified so skilling is quicker. They don't skip the content that comes from finding your feet but get to toddle quicker It's free from the start You could seed more so they are available on the market ie new player friendly corps (E-UNI etc) can buy them in Data\Relic\Combat sites or in special mission drops\DED sites\COSMOS It stimulates the economy You still have the choices equal consequences so key to EVE Online Free the dev time required for the -ú-ú-ú for SP and bring the Character Bazaar in-house to the EVE UI Drawbacks No increase demand for PLEX\Aurum so price doesn't increase You'd have to write a new tutorial on boosters\implants\accelerators or have Aura tell them about the thing that's in their head. Just some thoughts I'd had. Carry on EDIT: And this from the wiki: Please note: Cerebral accelerators are destroyed upon clone-jump, but will otherwise remain, even if your capsule is destroyed.If that doesn't encourage some PvP then what will. All other implants apart from 'Golden Pods' are destroyed on pod-kill.
That's way too much. +10 to all attributes is good enough and increase it's duration to last 30 days for pilots below 20 SP. Price it around 800 mill isk or 10.00 usd equivalent.
I know I for one would've bought tons of these early last year. But SP packs would've turn me away from the game. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
194
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 03:56:23 -
[3926] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:The single best thing about Eve is the skill system.
Edit, the single best thing about Eve, WAS the skill system.
Indeed.
Eve's skill system is (was) the main feature that attracted me to eve. Otherwise I would've played WOW for instant uberness. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
194
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 04:03:10 -
[3927] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Urziel99 wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: Very good point.
CCP has squandered the revenues they made from Eve on other non-profitable ventures as stated in the post above. And now in order to compensate for those losses they're trying to dig in deeper and milk their only bread winner even further??
CCP is a company, not a product and it is the goal of any company to outlive any one product they create. If a company relies on a single product for the entirety of their revenue, this is not possible. Yeah companies that sell electricity are never around long are they. Comparing a game software company to a public utility that is consumed by everyone? Apples vs Oranges fail troll -5/10 Yeah, because utilities never go bankrupt nor face sudden and drasticallychanging markets. And here is how I read that snippet of that comment. We are hoping the future of the company lies elsewhere than EVE, so we are going to milk EVE while it dies. But hey, I'm a glass half full kinda guy.
If they disregard the negative feedback and release this cancer anyway, then this statement of yours would appear to be accurate. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3560
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 04:21:47 -
[3928] - Quote
This thread has crossed into stupid, ISD should lock it.
Of course they wont because they have no balls.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
608
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 04:32:29 -
[3929] - Quote
I'm sure this has already been suggested, but I'm too lazy to read through the threadnought - so, with my apologies, if I'm repeating the obvious:
If the true goal is to encourage new players, by reducing the grind of the SP gap between new & old players, then the much simpler solution is to remove a lot of the core skils - just as the old learning skills were removed several years ago. Everyone - new and old - would now get those skills at level 5.
As for the players who already trained the skills, the SP can be reimbursed to the unallocated pool - again, just as was done previously with the removal of the learning skills.
Simple to implement, already 100% proven to work, and without massive numbers of bittervet unsubs. |
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
312
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 04:46:35 -
[3930] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:I'd pay $25 for 1mil SP all day everyday. That statement really sums up this whole **** up
You could always manipulate the market, so only bittervets can afford it
|
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 05:07:20 -
[3931] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:I'm sure this has already been suggested, but I'm too lazy to read through the threadnought - so, with my apologies, if I'm repeating the obvious:
If the true goal is to encourage new players, by reducing the grind of the SP gap between new & old players, then the much simpler solution is to remove a lot of the core skils - just as the old learning skills were removed several years ago. Everyone - new and old - would now get those skills at level 5.
As for the players who already trained the skills, the SP can be reimbursed to the unallocated pool - again, just as was done previously with the removal of the learning skills.
Simple to implement, already 100% proven to work, and without massive numbers of bittervet unsubs.
EDIT: Incidentally, there are *too* many skills in the game now, anyways. This is another frequent source of complaint by new players. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6108926#post6108926 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6110112#post6110112
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6112368#post6112368 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6111891#post6111891
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Dave Stark
7620
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 05:31:10 -
[3932] - Quote
Terranid Meester wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:I'd pay $25 for 1mil SP all day everyday. That statement really sums up this whole **** up You could always manipulate the market, so only bittervets can afford it
good luck, with a barrier to entry as low as "have a subscribed account" - i don't see market manipulation being t hat easy or cheap.
|
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
6433
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 05:33:46 -
[3933] - Quote
Removed a post discussing moderation and my genitals. Please leave them out of this discussion.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
atif09
THE THIRTEEN SAMURAI The Old Guard.
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 05:49:28 -
[3934] - Quote
CCP will implement this feature regardless as it is a new cash stream.
I say if they're going to add it they should make it better
instead of punishing people who have high sp already with reductions on sp received from packets. 500k-50k...wtf is up with that?
make it a linear trait where the more sp packets you use the less sp you receive
e.g.
using 1-10 packets gives you full sp return using 10-30 packets gives 90% sp return etc etc
they should also increase the sp drained amount from 500k to 1 mil as 1 mil sp packets sound better :) |
ArmyOfMe
Hull Breach. Outnumbered.
496
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 06:13:02 -
[3935] - Quote
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:Removed a post discussing moderation and my genitals. Please leave them out of this discussion. Not to jump on the bandwagon, but at least thats not a topic explored in here yet
Could quite possibly liven up the discussion quite a bit as it seems to be dying down a little atm.
QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 06:20:12 -
[3936] - Quote
XIRUSPHERE wrote:You are going to allow the ISK rich of eve to create armies of highly trained day old alts that will create chaos everywhere.
Patch must be named "Clone Wars" |
Pandora Bokks
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 06:24:15 -
[3937] - Quote
I personally do not like this idea but, considering the major reasons for it I would rather see this being done in a regulated market. Buy / sell those SP packest only through NPC station services with a fixed price plus Aurum. Or go full speed and sell it OOG for RL cash only - this would avoid market manipulation.
|
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 07:08:35 -
[3938] - Quote
atif09 wrote:they should also increase the sp drained amount from 500k to 1 mil as 1 mil sp packets sound better :)
i think the very reverse.
the more SP you have to use to make 1 packet, the higher the price of the packets. even at 500,000sp the price of these things will be prohibitively expensive for anyone that is new and/or unwilling to open their irl wallet.
if this change is to benefit everyone as it is stated to, it needs to be priced such that everyone can participate in the market. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 07:30:40 -
[3939] - Quote
Now I'm looking through thread and found this perl
Obsidian Crowe wrote:Please god no. You will make EVE play to win
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Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere Coalition of the Unfortunate
1521
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 07:38:43 -
[3940] - Quote
So we've got to page 200 or so, the depths of which are reasonably unlikely to be read by CCP, but I'm going to follow up on my immediate reaction of "Dear god no" from page 2.
I'm not a huge fan of unallocated skillpoints, yet I am even less of a fan of how the game forces players to specialize, often before they have any idea about which route they wish to take in EVE, what the meta is, and what it will be. Without extreme specialization (or crazy levels of good luck) the idea of a newer pilot being able to afford these injection packets without shelling out more real-life money is fairly slim.
In a game that is already quite difficult for newer players, and a game seriously struggling with retention, I fear that this will seem as an almost certain pay-to-win barrier that new players feel they must pay, just to get a leg up, and that it will send a bad signal to them. Of course, I know that in EVE there is no true "pay to win" but I do worry about perceptions.
More so, though, I feel that there is quite a difference between the direct exchanging of a character. I think a balancing factor of character exchange is that you might get what you want (a shiny new dread pilot, for example) but it might come at a cost (it might not be able to double as the covert ops hauler your original main/alt had before you sold it to upgrade).
Moving on, what truly terrifies me about this idea is the inevitable meta that will evolve around it, when combining it with existing metas of EVE. Power blocks in EVE by-and-large tend to be exploitative and thus I shall present the following overly-dramatic and almost certainly accurate prediction:
"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute."
Yes, it will happen, and because the sold-on-market SP packets will carry a premium, this will lead to smaller groups being forced to rip skills out of their heads just to pay the landlord... or to pay an aggressor to stop a war... or any other number of things. Obviously there is some element of cost-equivalence in that you could still, in a hard time, be forced to sell your skills for ISK... but if there is a way for one group of players to exploit another and get something cheaper, or easier, it will happen... often to the detriment of everyone else, and the game as a whole.
Solutions?
Nothing definitive. This entire area is a minefield.
Like I said in the opening statement, I hate forcing players. especially newer ones, to specialize. I would love to see selective attributes ripped out and maxed across the board (so I can stop telling newer players that the most efficient route to gain natural SP is the one where you polarise your remap and only train, for example, intelligence skills for 6 months, to the detriment of being able to fly new ships, or get new weapons etc.
Then I would like to see the "neutral remap" option keep its existing timers and bonuses for new players, but instead its purpose would be to allow a person to pull out and re-allocate up to 5 million SP **for their own use only**
New players in a corp stay longer and enjoy the game more than players in NPC corporations. Grant a small SP bonus after being in a corp (with at least 5 other players) for 3 weeks.
...
In summary, the SP trading worries me a lot, especially with how the meta will find a way to manipulate it to the benefit of certain groups. |
|
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
390
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 07:44:30 -
[3941] - Quote
That is a very good idea, actually. Hmmm... |
K04 78
C.Q.B Snuffed Out
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 07:49:33 -
[3942] - Quote
I'd really like to know, whats CCPs actual intention behind this feature.
- Is it to simply gain more $ out of the current playerbase? ( I can totally understand that and as a player, I support that, as a broke CCP can't deliver me the game I love. But please not in this way.) - Is it to help new players? (Please do so without Pay-To-Win!) - Is it just to add new "features", because someone wants new features for the marketing charts ? - Is it just a really nice trolling to the community ?
No really: What is the idea behind it? What do you guys want to archieve with that feature? If the community knows the intention, then we maybe can help to get better ideas. I would really like it way more to help, than to just rant about how sh.. your idea is
|
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 07:51:05 -
[3943] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute."
which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."?
if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle. |
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
390
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 07:55:24 -
[3944] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute." which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."? if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle.
Depends on what the market situation on those Packets will be. By asking the renters directly, one could make sure that SP Packets are being produced. |
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 07:56:36 -
[3945] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute." which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."? if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle. Depends on what the market situation on those Packets will be. By asking the renters directly, one could make sure that SP Packets are being produced.
or you could make sure they're being produced by spending their monthly rental fee on the corp/alliances own personal SP farm? |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
443
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 07:59:02 -
[3946] - Quote
I read some blogs about proposed change. I'm trying to gather info and opinion about it. They are usually split, pros, cons etc. I think this is lose-lose situaction for CCP. Playerbase is getting older, not enough new blood is coming into game (part of the problem is that newbros think they won't be competent with 100 mil SP vets). When this hits TQ part of the vets will propably leave (because it's changing the core of the game). Without change there won't be new players (and I assuming this will open game for new players), with change part of current player base may gone. It times when EvE already losing players, gains (new players) my not outrun losess. Sad part of one of the blog was that devs think it's time to stop being afraid of incarna fallout. This suggest more micro transactions will come. After all it's business. There is no point of having loyal base of customers if you don't earn. I don't like where this is heading. There are many ways to fill the gap between new and old players without real money involved. I don't think EvE will fall apart, but it will be something different. I don't know if I want to be part of it when that happens.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere Coalition of the Unfortunate
1522
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 08:06:57 -
[3947] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute." which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."? if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle. Depends on what the market situation on those Packets will be. By asking the renters directly, one could make sure that SP Packets are being produced.
More importantly, you can ensure they're produced at a lower price than if you bought them directly off the market. |
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 08:11:26 -
[3948] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:More importantly, you can ensure they're produced at a lower price than if you bought them directly off the market.
ok it's early... how?
the first thing a renter will do is say "ok you want 5m sp, that's 10 packets, that's 3bn isk to buy. my rent is 3bn per month." followed by "my rent has just gone up by 500m per month, i only used to pay 2.5bn".
you don't change the cost of anything, you're just hiking the prices of rental fees.
in addition to that you no longer control your rental fees - jita's market does. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2197
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 08:15:33 -
[3949] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute." which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."? if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle.
Because you'll be hampering the players skill progression directly that way. And forcing them to buy the extractors.
I'm sorry, I remain firmly on the 'this is a total trainwreck' side of the fence. |
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 08:19:11 -
[3950] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute." which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."? if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle. Because you'll be hampering the players skill progression directly that way. And forcing them to buy the extractors. I'm sorry, I remain firmly on the 'this is a total trainwreck' side of the fence.
how is skill progression being hampered by asking for a market traded commodity instead of a direct isk transfer? |
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 08:21:06 -
[3951] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote: In a game that is already quite difficult for newer players, and a game seriously struggling with retention, I fear that this will seem as an almost certain pay-to-win barrier that new players feel they must pay, just to get a leg up, and that it will send a bad signal to them. Of course, I know that in EVE there is no true "pay to win" but I do worry about perceptions.
My perception is earn more isk to be less bored from waiting for traning quee. So it's encoroug me to paticapate in the game and not waiting offline until quee is done. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2199
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 08:26:14 -
[3952] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute." which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."? if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle. Because you'll be hampering the players skill progression directly that way. And forcing them to buy the extractors. I'm sorry, I remain firmly on the 'this is a total trainwreck' side of the fence. how is skill progression being hampered by asking for a market traded commodity instead of a direct isk transfer?
You know that large blocs wage market manipulation right?
Anyway, I'm done. The instant gratification mob can have their fun, even if it means selling Eves soul.
No one is going to change any minds and this will be rolled out all the same.
'Think of the newbros' is the game equivalent of 'think of the children' at this point. |
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 08:28:36 -
[3953] - Quote
afkalt wrote:You know that large blocs wage market manipulation right?
yes.
but isk and sp are interchangable. by asking for more of one than the other, all you're doing is asking for more of the other. |
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere Coalition of the Unfortunate
1522
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 08:30:59 -
[3954] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:More importantly, you can ensure they're produced at a lower price than if you bought them directly off the market. ok it's early... how? the first thing a renter will do is say "ok you want 5m sp, that's 10 packets, that's 3bn isk to buy. my rent is 3bn per month." followed by "my rent has just gone up by 500m per month, i only used to pay 2.5bn". you don't change the cost of anything, you're just hiking the prices of rental fees. in addition to that you no longer control your rental fees - jita's market does.
It would depend very much on how much the skill packets cost, and what the extractors cost.
If the prices are extremely high, which they likely would be once the initial flood of massive over-supply had dwindled, then even modest amounts of renter-SP demands would lead to people preferring to pull skills out their own heads rather than bankrupting themselves by buying directly from Jita.
It is of course unsustainable if not properly managed, but certain groups in EVE are very skilled at managing such things. Surrendering player skills you're not at-that-moment urgently in need of, to avoid catching heat from some other direction, is something that a lot of people in EVE would feel was a necessary trade off where the alternative was paying a colossal sum of ISK. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1770
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 08:33:59 -
[3955] - Quote
afkalt wrote:...
'Think of the newbros' is the game equivalent of 'think of the children' at this point.
It's also disingenuous I would say, new players will not benefit from being asked to pay more to play the game. Especially when they still won't have a clue where they want to put those unallocated SP. And then even more so when they realize they got it wrong and have to buy another pack to put some where they really should have. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 08:35:59 -
[3956] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:I don't know if I want to be part of it when that happens. Could I have your SP when it happend?
P.S. I feel that I have right to be a bit jerky with you because you did so with me. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2199
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 08:36:23 -
[3957] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:You know that large blocs wage market manipulation right? yes. but isk and sp are interchangable. by asking for more of one than the other, all you're doing is asking for more of the other.
Except if skill packets are artificially inflated, it'll be cheaper to slurp your own brains/run plex funded farms.
You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that players of this game are not the most ruthless, clever and exploitive people imaginable.
Again perhaps if there was a shining light of awesome alongside all the concerns....but there's not. There is some vague handwavy crap about the bazaar having drawbacks - as it should. But now, now just buy a perfect thing either by grinding or $. It's an utter betrayal of one of eves core selling points tbh.
Choices matter, choices have consequences. But for a small fee, not any more. |
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 08:40:20 -
[3958] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:More importantly, you can ensure they're produced at a lower price than if you bought them directly off the market. ok it's early... how? the first thing a renter will do is say "ok you want 5m sp, that's 10 packets, that's 3bn isk to buy. my rent is 3bn per month." followed by "my rent has just gone up by 500m per month, i only used to pay 2.5bn". you don't change the cost of anything, you're just hiking the prices of rental fees. in addition to that you no longer control your rental fees - jita's market does. It would depend very much on how much the skill packets cost, and what the extractors cost. If the prices are extremely high, which they likely would be once the initial flood of massive over-supply had dwindled, then even modest amounts of renter-SP demands would lead to people preferring to pull skills out their own heads rather than bankrupting themselves by buying directly from Jita. It is of course unsustainable if not properly managed, but certain groups in EVE are very skilled at managing such things. Surrendering player skills you're not at-that-moment urgently in need of, to avoid catching heat from some other direction, is something that a lot of people in EVE would feel was a necessary trade off where the alternative was paying a colossal sum of ISK.
a SP packet will never cost more than 1/4 plex + extractor cost to produce. ever. it doesn't matter what the market price is. just pull it from an alt's head, there's never a situation where you will *have* to pull it out of your own head and thus your skill progression is never hampered.
this is no different to saying "if ccp want to introduce this "plex idea" then all teh ebils will charge you 1 plex per month to rent and people will be forced to open their wallets and pay real money to rent!!!!".
we're also overlooking the most obvious point; it's not in any landlord's best interest to alienate their renters - it's not slavery it's a rental agreement. |
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 08:42:15 -
[3959] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:You know that large blocs wage market manipulation right? yes. but isk and sp are interchangable. by asking for more of one than the other, all you're doing is asking for more of the other. Except if skill packets are artificially inflated, it'll be cheaper to slurp your own brains/run plex funded farms. You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that players of this game are not the most ruthless, clever and exploitive people imaginable. Again perhaps if there was a shining light of awesome alongside all the concerns....but there's not. There is some vague handwavy crap about the bazaar having drawbacks - as it should. But now, now just buy a perfect thing either by grinding or $. It's an utter betrayal of one of eves core selling points tbh. Choices matter, choices have consequences. But for a small fee, not any more.
i'm not pretending eve players aren't the most ruthless and exploitative people on the planet - but asking to pay my rent in euros instead of sterling just makes me do a currency conversion, i don't suddenly go and get a job overseas instead. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
443
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 08:51:52 -
[3960] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Could I have your SP when it happend? No. Grow up kid. You money making FW is about to being nerfed. They wanna introduce fast webing frigs to deal with SB farm. I suggest to read blogs and minutes, things are started to change fast here. BTW you have a great potential in this game if you know how to/where earn money at start. I'm impressed.
Another thing. Corps usually taking players that reached some SP level.
Dave Stark wrote:a SP packet will never cost more than 1/4 plex + extractor cost to produce. ever. X here is extractor and we don't know the price yet.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
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Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere Coalition of the Unfortunate
1522
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 08:52:29 -
[3961] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:a SP packet will never cost more than 1/4 plex + extractor cost to produce. ever. it doesn't matter what the market price is. just pull it from an alt's head, there's never a situation where you will *have* to pull it out of your own head and thus your skill progression is never hampered.
this is no different to saying "if ccp want to introduce this "plex idea" then all teh ebils will charge you 1 plex per month to rent and people will be forced to open their wallets and pay real money to rent!!!!".
I think the main reason for where we're not in agreement is I think that so far as SP goes, I don't think there is a direct ISK : SP equivalence in terms of the *selling* SP portion.
I understand exactly where you're coming from regarding the interchangeability of commodities. I think the difference is that when up against a wall and with no means to pay the ISK, the value of "unused" SP to a person intrinsically goes down where as goods and services always retain the same value, give or take a few percent for the difference in buy/sell. |
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
1290
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 08:52:45 -
[3962] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img] The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside. Please also read this reminder on our forum rules ~ ISD Decoy
fine for me
Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
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Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:01:02 -
[3963] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:Dave Stark wrote:a SP packet will never cost more than 1/4 plex + extractor cost to produce. ever. it doesn't matter what the market price is. just pull it from an alt's head, there's never a situation where you will *have* to pull it out of your own head and thus your skill progression is never hampered.
this is no different to saying "if ccp want to introduce this "plex idea" then all teh ebils will charge you 1 plex per month to rent and people will be forced to open their wallets and pay real money to rent!!!!". I think the main reason for where we're not in agreement is I think that so far as SP goes, I don't think there is a direct ISK : SP equivalence in terms of the *selling* SP portion. I understand exactly where you're coming from regarding the interchangeability of commodities. I think the difference is that when up against a wall and with no means to pay the ISK, the value of "unused" SP to a person intrinsically goes down where as goods (ships, modules, isk) services always retain the same value, give or take a few percent for the difference in buy/sell.
but there is a direct isk:sp cost price.
we know that you can produce 500,000SP in 7.7 days. that's how the game mechanics work. we know that 7.7 days of gametime has an isk value. that's 7.7/30 * plex price.
therefore we know exactly what the cost of SP is in isk.
if it's cheaper to buy than produce, then you buy it and give it to your landlord. if it's cheaper to produce it, then you produce it. you always know that the most you're ever going to pay is ~1/4 plex + extractor. both of those things have an isk price.
if you choose to use spare SP you don't need to pay landlords that's fine - the issue i was addressing was that a previous poster claimed they would "force" people to pay in SP - to which i say "so what? it's no different from a monthly isk bill". |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:08:07 -
[3964] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute." which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."? if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle.
The point being made is you cant ask for that now, but when / if it does happen they can and regardless of what the payment was before if its 10 they want they can use it for there own players to increase in skill, which they cant do now at present. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
247
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:09:56 -
[3965] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Sentient Blade wrote: In a game that is already quite difficult for newer players, and a game seriously struggling with retention, I fear that this will seem as an almost certain pay-to-win barrier that new players feel they must pay, just to get a leg up, and that it will send a bad signal to them. Of course, I know that in EVE there is no true "pay to win" but I do worry about perceptions.
My perception is earn more isk to be less bored from waiting for training quee. So it's encoroug me to paticapate in the game and not waiting offline until quee is done. If you have run out of things to do then that is not the games fault but due to your own lack of imagination, sorry but it is just a weak and childish excuse.
I have always had the opposite situation myself. Of course there are moments when you think I wish I had that skill to level V and such, but I've never been short of goals which I have yet to achieve. Broaden your horizons.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
247
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:13:52 -
[3966] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:More importantly, you can ensure they're produced at a lower price than if you bought them directly off the market. ok it's early... how? the first thing a renter will do is say "ok you want 5m sp, that's 10 packets, that's 3bn isk to buy. my rent is 3bn per month." followed by "my rent has just gone up by 500m per month, i only used to pay 2.5bn". you don't change the cost of anything, you're just hiking the prices of rental fees. in addition to that you no longer control your rental fees - jita's market does. It would depend very much on how much the skill packets cost, and what the extractors cost. If the prices are extremely high, which they likely would be once the initial flood of massive over-supply had dwindled, then even modest amounts of renter-SP demands would lead to people preferring to pull skills out their own heads rather than bankrupting themselves by buying directly from Jita. It is of course unsustainable if not properly managed, but certain groups in EVE are very skilled at managing such things. Surrendering player skills you're not at-that-moment urgently in need of, to avoid catching heat from some other direction, is something that a lot of people in EVE would feel was a necessary trade off where the alternative was paying a colossal sum of ISK. a SP packet will never cost more than 1/4 plex + extractor cost to produce. ever. it doesn't matter what the market price is. just pull it from an alt's head, there's never a situation where you will *have* to pull it out of your own head and thus your skill progression is never hampered. Your making the mistake again of directly correlating skill packets to PLEX, two completely different things. The price of skill packets will be based on supply and demand, the only think you can guarantee is that it won't go below the cost of the extractor.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
202
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:15:12 -
[3967] - Quote
Checking in to say that I'm still generally against this except in the case of demanding rent in sp, which amuses me greatly.
The payments would need to be API verified against the renter's character sheet, of course. |
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:16:27 -
[3968] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute." which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."? if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle. The point being made is you cant ask for that now, but when / if it does happen they can and regardless of what the payment was before if its 10 they want they can use it for there own players to increase in skill, which they cant do now at present.
if they want to use their own players in skill they can just use the rental income to buy packets, or plex farming accounts.
if they wanted to, landlords could ask for their rent in plex, or robotics, or megathrons, or prostitutes. |
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:20:21 -
[3969] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:More importantly, you can ensure they're produced at a lower price than if you bought them directly off the market. ok it's early... how? the first thing a renter will do is say "ok you want 5m sp, that's 10 packets, that's 3bn isk to buy. my rent is 3bn per month." followed by "my rent has just gone up by 500m per month, i only used to pay 2.5bn". you don't change the cost of anything, you're just hiking the prices of rental fees. in addition to that you no longer control your rental fees - jita's market does. It would depend very much on how much the skill packets cost, and what the extractors cost. If the prices are extremely high, which they likely would be once the initial flood of massive over-supply had dwindled, then even modest amounts of renter-SP demands would lead to people preferring to pull skills out their own heads rather than bankrupting themselves by buying directly from Jita. It is of course unsustainable if not properly managed, but certain groups in EVE are very skilled at managing such things. Surrendering player skills you're not at-that-moment urgently in need of, to avoid catching heat from some other direction, is something that a lot of people in EVE would feel was a necessary trade off where the alternative was paying a colossal sum of ISK. a SP packet will never cost more than 1/4 plex + extractor cost to produce. ever. it doesn't matter what the market price is. just pull it from an alt's head, there's never a situation where you will *have* to pull it out of your own head and thus your skill progression is never hampered. Your making the mistake again of directly correlating skill packets to PLEX, two completely different things. The price of skill packets will be based on supply and demand, the only think you can guarantee is that it won't go below the cost of the extractor.
it's not a mistake.
the two are different things but it doesn't matter. the price of a skill packet will never be higher than the price i just pointed out for the reasons i just pointed out.
if some one asks you for skill packets as payment you can easily work out what that will cost you to obtain. if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account".
as such you always know the maximum isk price you are being asked to pay. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:20:36 -
[3970] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute." which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."? if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle. The point being made is you cant ask for that now, but when / if it does happen they can and regardless of what the payment was before if its 10 they want they can use it for there own players to increase in skill, which they cant do now at present. if they want to use their own players in skill they can just use the rental income to buy packets, or plex farming accounts. if they wanted to, landlords could ask for their rent in plex, or robotics, or megathrons, or prostitutes.
Rent 3 billion
Right scum as were looking after you your also going to have to stump up 5 mill TSP a month < Extortion but still legal in EvE its a commodity now so as such not covered by anti scam |
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Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:23:23 -
[3971] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute." which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."? if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle. The point being made is you cant ask for that now, but when / if it does happen they can and regardless of what the payment was before if its 10 they want they can use it for there own players to increase in skill, which they cant do now at present. if they want to use their own players in skill they can just use the rental income to buy packets, or plex farming accounts. if they wanted to, landlords could ask for their rent in plex, or robotics, or megathrons, or prostitutes. Rent 3 billion Right scum as were looking after you your also going to have to stump up 5 mill TSP a month < Extortion but still legal in EvE its a commodity now so as such not covered by anti scam
so they buy 5m SP worth of TSPs for another 3bn, they pay a total of 6bn isk for a month's rent. that's no different to just saying "pay us 6bn isk a month so we can buy some TSPs on the market please." |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:24:07 -
[3972] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:General Lootit wrote:Sentient Blade wrote: In a game that is already quite difficult for newer players, and a game seriously struggling with retention, I fear that this will seem as an almost certain pay-to-win barrier that new players feel they must pay, just to get a leg up, and that it will send a bad signal to them. Of course, I know that in EVE there is no true "pay to win" but I do worry about perceptions.
My perception is earn more isk to be less bored from waiting for training quee. So it's encoroug me to paticapate in the game and not waiting offline until quee is done. If you have run out of things to do then that is not the games fault but due to your own lack of imagination, sorry but it is just a weak and childish excuse. I have always had the opposite situation myself. Of course there are moments when you think I wish I had that skill to level V and such, but I've never been short of goals which I have yet to achieve. Broaden your horizons. I doesn't excusing for my opinion. I didn't run out of things to do. I have plan and budget for it. I'm not going to change it because some stranger told me to do so. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
444
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:27:10 -
[3973] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account".
Lost here, why would I create new account? I can't strip SP from alt below 5 mil.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:28:33 -
[3974] - Quote
Dave,
Sometimes your dense, You cant at present bolster an alliances players by making them stronger with skillpoints. To either increase there numbers,alts , inceasing there lower players to jump into bigger and better kit instantly |
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:33:07 -
[3975] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave,
Sometimes your dense, You cant at present bolster an alliances players by making them stronger with skillpoints. To either increase there numbers,alts , inceasing there lower players to jump into big and better kit.
yes you can, buy by characters for them. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
444
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:40:42 -
[3976] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:by the time you've gone through the trial, and the 30 days gametime required to create a full account that's 2 months. you're almost already at that 5m SP limit and thus you have a character you can farm for SP at lower than market price (and once market price dips below cost price you just stop subscribing it). edit: pretty sure with power of 2 you'll be at 5m SP for "free" as you're paying 3 plex for 6 months is it?
personal SP farm(s) ensures that you are never in a situation where you will ever have to pay above cost price for SP.
which would be a prudent thing to do if for some strange reason you're being asked to pay rent in SP packets every month. Thank you. Just found another possible exploit. Alt farm.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:40:49 -
[3977] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave,
Sometimes your dense, You cant at present bolster an alliances players by making them stronger with skillpoints. To either increase there numbers,alts , inceasing there lower players to jump into big and better kit. yes you can, buy by characters for them. As pointed out before though, those come with all the baggage associated with a bazaar toon, instaspawn do not which is irrelevant when all that character is for is amassing players that can all get max dps when they press f1. how many corps that character scammed/stole/awoxed doesn't make the number on that fitting window any lower or higher.
I would of thought the main reason bought up yesterday was enough in itself, intel and watchlists are pretty much redundant now. |
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:42:50 -
[3978] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:by the time you've gone through the trial, and the 30 days gametime required to create a full account that's 2 months. you're almost already at that 5m SP limit and thus you have a character you can farm for SP at lower than market price (and once market price dips below cost price you just stop subscribing it). edit: pretty sure with power of 2 you'll be at 5m SP for "free" as you're paying 3 plex for 6 months is it?
personal SP farm(s) ensures that you are never in a situation where you will ever have to pay above cost price for SP.
which would be a prudent thing to do if for some strange reason you're being asked to pay rent in SP packets every month. Thank you. Just found another possible exploit. Alt farm.
not a new thing - people already start accounts just to train a character to sell on the bazaar. characters that have no baggage, corp history, etc.
completely clean and focused characters created expressly for the purpose of being turned in to isk. pretty sure mr.epeen who was posting earlier is some one who does this, along with many others. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1771
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:43:53 -
[3979] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account".
Lost here, why would I create new account? I can't strip SP from alt below 5 mil. by the time you've gone through the trial, and the 30 days gametime required to create a full account that's 2 months. you're almost already at that 5m SP limit and thus you have a character you can farm for SP at lower than market price (and once market price dips below cost price you just stop subscribing it). edit: pretty sure with power of 2 you'll be at 5m SP for "free" as you're paying 3 plex for 6 months is it? personal SP farm(s) ensures that you are never in a situation where you will ever have to pay above cost price for SP. which would be a prudent thing to do if for some strange reason you're being asked to pay rent in SP packets every month.
So you are saying this idea is good and actually advocating people create alts purely for SP farming?
OK, everyone will be able to do that. Except they won't as not everyone has the ISK or RL cash to do so. Thus those who are RL or space rich will gain the advantage of practically instant perfect skills in whatever FotM ship is around after any rebalance, The rest of the players of the game just plod along at a now seemingly slower rate (which is in fact no slower than now but this change will create that perception).
Messing with the SP system is plainly not a good idea. It is one of the few things in the game that has consistently worked and worked well. It sets EvE apart from other MMO's and I for one do not want EvE to be 'like every other MMO out there'.
You can be sure that goons et al already have several plans to make this system reinforce their stranglehold over certain areas of space/the game. It's what they are good at and as long as it's within the rules they are perfectly within their rights to do so. that doesn't however make the game any better for the rest of us. |
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:46:51 -
[3980] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account".
Lost here, why would I create new account? I can't strip SP from alt below 5 mil. by the time you've gone through the trial, and the 30 days gametime required to create a full account that's 2 months. you're almost already at that 5m SP limit and thus you have a character you can farm for SP at lower than market price (and once market price dips below cost price you just stop subscribing it). edit: pretty sure with power of 2 you'll be at 5m SP for "free" as you're paying 3 plex for 6 months is it? personal SP farm(s) ensures that you are never in a situation where you will ever have to pay above cost price for SP. which would be a prudent thing to do if for some strange reason you're being asked to pay rent in SP packets every month. So you are saying this idea is good and actually advocating people create alts purely for SP farming? OK, everyone will be able to do that. Except they won't as not everyone has the ISK or RL cash to do so. Thus those who are RL or space rich will gain the advantage of practically instant perfect skills in whatever FotM ship is around after any rebalance, The rest of the players of the game just plod along at a now seemingly slower rate (which is in fact no slower than now but this change will create that perception). Messing with the SP system is plainly not a good idea. It is one of the few things in the game that has consistently worked and worked well. It sets EvE apart from other MMO's and I for one do not want EvE to be 'like every other MMO out there'. You can be sure that goons et al already have several plans to make this system reinforce their stranglehold over certain areas of space/the game. It's what they are good at and as long as it's within the rules they are perfectly within their rights to do so. that doesn't however make the game any better for the rest of us.
i don't need to advocate it - people already do.
if you don't have the isk or RL cash to create an SP farm - you don't have the isk or cash to pay rent to a landlord - so it doesn't matter.
the rich already have that advantage by buying from the character bazaar. |
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
249
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:48:49 -
[3981] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account". And setting up a SP farm requires capital investment and time. If a big alliance buys out all the SP packets for instance then price will spike until demand can catch up. It is what happens in the eve markets all the time already.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:52:48 -
[3982] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account". And setting up a SP farm requires capital investment and time. If a big alliance buys out all the SP packets for instance then price will spike until demand can catch up. It is what happens in the eve markets all the time already.
by setting up an SP farm takes, as i said, a little over two months. with power of 2 getting to the point where that farm is functional is essentially "free" if i have my prices/duration on power of 2 correct (been a while since i made a new alt).
buying out all the sp packets is irrelevant - you're bypassing the market by setting up your own farm anyway.
you're acting like large alliances are intentionally going to try and not get paid and destroy their own rental empires - which in itself is illogical as all hell. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
444
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:53:03 -
[3983] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:not a new thing - people already start accounts just to train a character to sell on the bazaar. characters that have no baggage, corp history, etc.
completely clean and focused characters created expressly for the purpose of being turned in to isk. pretty sure mr.epeen who was posting earlier is some one who does this, along with many others. I was thinking about boosting main char by farming free alts, just by cost of extractor. For low level char that may be a thing.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:54:15 -
[3984] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:not a new thing - people already start accounts just to train a character to sell on the bazaar. characters that have no baggage, corp history, etc.
completely clean and focused characters created expressly for the purpose of being turned in to isk. pretty sure mr.epeen who was posting earlier is some one who does this, along with many others. I was thinking about boosting main char by farming free alts, just by cost of extractor. For low level char that may be a thing.
sp you farm yourself isn't free (this is literally going to be the new "minerals i mine myself are free" **** isn't it?). you still need to plex the accounts/dual train those characters. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:55:43 -
[3985] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account".
Lost here, why would I create new account? I can't strip SP from alt below 5 mil. by the time you've gone through the trial, and the 30 days gametime required to create a full account that's 2 months. you're almost already at that 5m SP limit and thus you have a character you can farm for SP at lower than market price (and once market price dips below cost price you just stop subscribing it). edit: pretty sure with power of 2 you'll be at 5m SP for "free" as you're paying 3 plex for 6 months is it? personal SP farm(s) ensures that you are never in a situation where you will ever have to pay above cost price for SP. which would be a prudent thing to do if for some strange reason you're being asked to pay rent in SP packets every month. So you are saying this idea is good and actually advocating people create alts purely for SP farming? OK, everyone will be able to do that. Except they won't as not everyone has the ISK or RL cash to do so. Thus those who are RL or space rich will gain the advantage of practically instant perfect skills in whatever FotM ship is around after any rebalance, The rest of the players of the game just plod along at a now seemingly slower rate (which is in fact no slower than now but this change will create that perception). Messing with the SP system is plainly not a good idea. It is one of the few things in the game that has consistently worked and worked well. It sets EvE apart from other MMO's and I for one do not want EvE to be 'like every other MMO out there'. You can be sure that goons et al already have several plans to make this system reinforce their stranglehold over certain areas of space/the game. It's what they are good at and as long as it's within the rules they are perfectly within their rights to do so. that doesn't however make the game any better for the rest of us. i don't need to advocate it - people already do. if you don't have the isk or RL cash to create an SP farm - you don't have the isk or cash to pay rent to a landlord - so it doesn't matter. the rich already have that advantage by buying from the character bazaar.
Anything thats put on the bazaar whether its an old toon or a fresh tengu pilot that has been just trained instation and nothing else has to have its name listed on the bazaar for selling, you then watch when its sold, what corp it joins, where its located.
Thats all gone now, instaspawn toons are an invisible entity. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:56:01 -
[3986] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account". And setting up a SP farm requires capital investment and time. If a big alliance buys out all the SP packets for instance then price will spike until demand can catch up. It is what happens in the eve markets all the time already. Then new farmers will come because it become more profitable hence price will go down. Also need to consider that EVE have many allinces which are constantly fighting against each other. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
249
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:59:05 -
[3987] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account". And setting up a SP farm requires capital investment and time. If a big alliance buys out all the SP packets for instance then price will spike until demand can catch up. It is what happens in the eve markets all the time already. by setting up an SP farm takes, as i said, a little over two months probably three. with power of 2 getting to the point where that farm is functional is essentially "free" if i have my prices/duration on power of 2 correct (been a while since i made a new alt). buying out all the sp packets is irrelevant - you're bypassing the market by setting up your own farm anyway. you're acting like large alliances are intentionally going to try and not get paid and destroy their own rental empires - which in itself is illogical as all hell. I'm not talking about rental empires. I don't think they'll ask for SP in payment anyway, although the inhabitants could feel pressured into converting their own SP to ISK for payment though if they don't have enough liquid ISK to hand. But I couldn't care less about renters anyway.
I'm just pulling you up on the mistake you made when you asserted than skill packets could never go higher in price than the cost of 1/4 PLEX plus an extractor. You would be right if you said that SP packets should never stabilise above 1/4 plex + extractor, but markets spike and decline all the time so they could easily go over that price for a period of time until demand can catch up.
Personally I think there would be oversupply anyway especially during the initial stages.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:00:05 -
[3988] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:not a new thing - people already start accounts just to train a character to sell on the bazaar. characters that have no baggage, corp history, etc.
completely clean and focused characters created expressly for the purpose of being turned in to isk. pretty sure mr.epeen who was posting earlier is some one who does this, along with many others. I was thinking about boosting main char by farming free alts, just by cost of extractor. For low level char that may be a thing. First of all alts need to be hit 5m SP to be able to extracting. And I doubt that Devs will allow to extract from trial accounts. |
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:00:50 -
[3989] - Quote
Hi,
I'am subscribed since November 2006 continiously. Still a fan of Eve's unique Real Time Skill System. Keeps me subscribed till today, even when i can't play that much anymore... because it rewards me with SP anyway due to the Time SP Factor. This Constant was softened already when Attribute Revamping was introduced, with the possibility to optimize Skillques. More starting SP for beginners does the same btw... If you make SP purchasable now, the Constant Time SP Factor becomes even weaker.... Not only that i have a really bad feeling about the idea, but why should i stay subscribed, when i dont have time to play? I could pause my Sub and just buy some SP when checking back in.... and what do you think is the next step? SP boosting Equipment in the AUR Store? Everyone raising at least one SP alt, to sell them at a given time, just to raise the next one?
No, please don't touch the SkillSystem...otherwise this is not my game anymore....
It you need money, pimp the aur store with unique bling bling stuff, but don't kill the most fundamental game mechanic... |
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:00:52 -
[3990] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account". And setting up a SP farm requires capital investment and time. If a big alliance buys out all the SP packets for instance then price will spike until demand can catch up. It is what happens in the eve markets all the time already. Then new farmers will come because it become more profitable hence price will go down. Also need to consider that EVE have many allinces which are constantly fighting against each other.
i agree. i think that due to the laughably low barrier to entry there's nowhere for these SP packets to go price wise other than to track 1/4 plex price + extractor price.
as soon as any profit can be made everyone will fire up their alts again and push the price back down to cost price and once the profit is gone they'll ice them again. |
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
444
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:05:50 -
[3991] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:sp you farm yourself isn't free (this is literally going to be the new "minerals i mine myself are free" **** isn't it?). you still need to plex the accounts/dual train those characters. Then whole I can define price
Dave Stark wrote:if some one asks you for skill packets as payment you can easily work out what that will cost you to obtain. if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account". Is invalid. Because what you wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:by the time you've gone through the trial, and the 30 days gametime required to create a full account that's 2 months. you're almost already at that 5m SP limit and thus you have a character you can farm for SP at lower than market price So what is the "free time" of playing here? I assume only trial.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:11:43 -
[3992] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:General Lootit wrote:My perception is earn more isk to be less bored from waiting for training quee. So it's encoroug me to paticapate in the game and not waiting offline until quee is done. If you have run out of things to do then that is not the games fault but due to your own lack of imagination, sorry but it is just a weak and childish excuse. I have always had the opposite situation myself. Of course there are moments when you think I wish I had that skill to level V and such, but I've never been short of goals which I have yet to achieve. Broaden your horizons.
Quote:You're making the whole of issues out to be a people problem. Prove it, then. Prove that motivation isn't some inherent process that design has to be submitted to. Prove that undermining player skillfulness is motivating, instead of its alternative of allowing progression and mastery.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:12:51 -
[3993] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:sp you farm yourself isn't free (this is literally going to be the new "minerals i mine myself are free" **** isn't it?). you still need to plex the accounts/dual train those characters. Then whole I can define price Dave Stark wrote:if some one asks you for skill packets as payment you can easily work out what that will cost you to obtain. if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account". Is invalid. Because what you wrote: Dave Stark wrote:by the time you've gone through the trial, and the 30 days gametime required to create a full account that's 2 months. you're almost already at that 5m SP limit and thus you have a character you can farm for SP at lower than market price So what is the "free time" of playing here? I assume only trial.
if a power of 2 account gives you 6 months game time for 3 plex (i think that's correct?). then 3 of those months are "free" within that free time you can earn the 5m SP required to start extracting SP from your character. it's like 2.6 months to train 5m sp at max speed. obviously you will not be doing that as you need to train cybernetics V to get +5s so we'll call it 3 months for the sake of rounding.
after that you have 3 months of harvestable SP that cost you 3 plex, which is the same rate as you'll continue to harvest plex at. so if the power of 2 offer continues setting up an SP farm essentially becomes free.
tl;dr pay for 3 months game time, get 6 months. 3 of those months are free.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1771
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:14:51 -
[3994] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account". And setting up a SP farm requires capital investment and time. If a big alliance buys out all the SP packets for instance then price will spike until demand can catch up. It is what happens in the eve markets all the time already. by setting up an SP farm takes, as i said, a little over two months probably three. with power of 2 getting to the point where that farm is functional is essentially "free" if i have my prices/duration on power of 2 correct (been a while since i made a new alt). buying out all the sp packets is irrelevant - you're bypassing the market by setting up your own farm anyway. you're acting like large alliances are intentionally going to try and not get paid and destroy their own rental empires - which in itself is illogical as all hell.
You somehow think that goons et al won't work out the best level at which to charge people whilst having (now instantly perfect) market alts hoover up all SP packs in the hubs with the trillions they get from moons? They would be stupid not to.
They can afford to screw over the hisec (i.e. newbs) markets whilst giving the damn things away for free to alliance members. They already reimburse expensive ships, now they will be able to simply bring all alliance members up to perfect skills for any doctrine they choose in an instant. Oh, they'll have SP SRP too for those flying T3's. The hold of the existing alliances just gets tighter with this. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
444
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:17:52 -
[3995] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:tl;dr pay for 3 months game time, get 6 months. 3 of those months are free. It's not avaiable anymore, can't find it on account manager.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:19:28 -
[3996] - Quote
This makes the whole idea even more terrifying..... no matter what you call it....it smells like PtoW, and this message will be spread..... |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:22:12 -
[3997] - Quote
Congrats everyone with hitting 200 page of feedback thread Devs must be happy
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Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:26:26 -
[3998] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account". And setting up a SP farm requires capital investment and time. If a big alliance buys out all the SP packets for instance then price will spike until demand can catch up. It is what happens in the eve markets all the time already. by setting up an SP farm takes, as i said, a little over two months probably three. with power of 2 getting to the point where that farm is functional is essentially "free" if i have my prices/duration on power of 2 correct (been a while since i made a new alt). buying out all the sp packets is irrelevant - you're bypassing the market by setting up your own farm anyway. you're acting like large alliances are intentionally going to try and not get paid and destroy their own rental empires - which in itself is illogical as all hell. You somehow think that goons et al won't work out the best level at which to charge people whilst having (now instantly perfect) market alts hoover up all SP packs in the hubs with the trillions they get from moons? They would be stupid not to. They can afford to screw over the hisec (i.e. newbs) markets whilst giving the damn things away for free to alliance members. They already reimburse expensive ships, now they will be able to simply bring all alliance members up to perfect skills for any doctrine they choose in an instant. Oh, they'll have SP SRP too for those flying T3's. The hold of the existing alliances just gets tighter with this.
they can charge any price they want - but ANYONE can undercut them if they sell above cost price. while goon's pockets are deep they are not infinite.
i'll quote laz telraven from the meta show on 30/09/15 "100m sp is low" - i have lower than 100m SP and perfect mining skills - yet i can still fit in and fly any nullsec subcap doctrine i want. do you really think anyone but new players and poor people need these skill packets? |
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:27:45 -
[3999] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:tl;dr pay for 3 months game time, get 6 months. 3 of those months are free. It's not avaiable anymore, can't find it on account manager.
it's something they offer for a short time but it always comes back on. both my alts, made at separate times, were power of 2 alts.
it's not a permanent thing but when ti comes back you can take advantage of it. besides, it pays for itself. it costs you 3 plex, and you'll get 3 plex worth of SP to sell at the end. even if you never use it after setting it up you've always got it and it hasn't cost you a thing. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
143
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:32:18 -
[4000] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Speaking of which, there's been quite a few questions as to why the feature is being developed? What players are the target for this feature? I think it's fairly clearly described in the dev blog here:
"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether youGÇÖre an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you donGÇÖt use any more, a clever new player looking to invest your fortune into your character, a Corp leader trying to move everyone into a new doctrine or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly ArmageddonGÇÖs than Stilettos, this feature has you covered. This all fits nicely to our overall game design philosophy of giving you control over your experience through cooperation and competition with each other."
Unfortunately it's not clearly described. These are some very broad philosophical arguments that one could used to support... well, a whole bunch of changes. I am fairly certain you did not come to decision to design the SP market lightly. There must be specific issues with the game that you want to address, and reasons why you believe SP market would be a good tool to do so. With the change of this magnitude, please be transparent with your player base. Ask for whatever permissions you need, and the tell us: why? |
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sixteen 64
Perkone Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:33:43 -
[4001] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Congrats everyone with hitting 200 page of feedback thread Devs must be happy
Except 100 pages is this Dave guy, repeating himself over and over
Anyways, I think we should just have a old fashioned vote, CCP have 23 likes, and this Ripard guy has 94
That means we win right CCP?! |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1772
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:35:47 -
[4002] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:...
they can charge any price they want - but ANYONE can undercut them if they sell above cost price. while goon's pockets are deep they are not infinite.
...
They don't have to be infinite, they simply buy up packets that undercut them and then sell them at the price they actually want to sell them at. They make more money than it costs to buy the packets. Infinite resources are not required, just basic marketing ability which I'm pretty sure they are way way above. |
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:36:18 -
[4003] - Quote
sixteen 64 wrote:General Lootit wrote:Congrats everyone with hitting 200 page of feedback thread Devs must be happy Except 100 pages is this Dave guy, repeating himself over and over Anyways, I think we should just have a old fashioned vote, CCP have 23 likes, and this Ripard guy has 94 That means we win right CCP?!
elise has over 500 on reddit last i checked and 3 of those gold star things.
brb starting an SP farm.
as you can see from the last few pages - a discussion is taking place. if you have an issue with me being the one presenting a counterpoint to every point made then *shrug* that's on you. the ISDs have been actively removing any rule breaking posts so what's left is all relevant and pertinent to the discussion. |
sixteen 64
Perkone Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:39:10 -
[4004] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:sixteen 64 wrote:General Lootit wrote:Congrats everyone with hitting 200 page of feedback thread Devs must be happy Except 100 pages is this Dave guy, repeating himself over and over Anyways, I think we should just have a old fashioned vote, CCP have 23 likes, and this Ripard guy has 94 That means we win right CCP?! elise has over 500 on reddit last i checked and 3 of those gold star things. brb starting an SP farm. as you can see from the last few pages - a discussion is taking place. if you have an issue with me being the one presenting a counterpoint to every point made then *shrug* that's on you. the ISDs have been actively removing any rule breaking posts so what's left is all relevant and pertinent to the discussion.
Oh, are you racing him?! |
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:44:02 -
[4005] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...
they can charge any price they want - but ANYONE can undercut them if they sell above cost price. while goon's pockets are deep they are not infinite.
... They don't have to be infinite, they simply buy up packets that undercut them and then sell them at the price they actually want to sell them at. They make more money than it costs to buy the packets. Infinite resources are not required, just basic marketing ability which I'm pretty sure they are way way above.
to be honest, without knowing actual numbers there's no way to know if this is valid or not.
however they'd have to purchase every single packet. every single one, as every single packet will undercut them if they try and sell above cost price. |
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:44:51 -
[4006] - Quote
sixteen 64 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:sixteen 64 wrote:General Lootit wrote:Congrats everyone with hitting 200 page of feedback thread Devs must be happy Except 100 pages is this Dave guy, repeating himself over and over Anyways, I think we should just have a old fashioned vote, CCP have 23 likes, and this Ripard guy has 94 That means we win right CCP?! elise has over 500 on reddit last i checked and 3 of those gold star things. brb starting an SP farm. as you can see from the last few pages - a discussion is taking place. if you have an issue with me being the one presenting a counterpoint to every point made then *shrug* that's on you. the ISDs have been actively removing any rule breaking posts so what's left is all relevant and pertinent to the discussion. Oh, are you racing him?!
no, i'm pointing out if we're going by popular vote i better hurry up making that SP farm. this train has no brakes. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1772
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:46:36 -
[4007] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...
they can charge any price they want - but ANYONE can undercut them if they sell above cost price. while goon's pockets are deep they are not infinite.
... They don't have to be infinite, they simply buy up packets that undercut them and then sell them at the price they actually want to sell them at. They make more money than it costs to buy the packets. Infinite resources are not required, just basic marketing ability which I'm pretty sure they are way way above. to be honest, without knowing actual numbers there's no way to know if this is valid or not. however they'd have to purchase every single packet. every single one, as every single packet will undercut them if they try and sell above cost price.
Not necessarily, just enough to control the market. Besides you just described how groups perform market warfare right now so why would something as valuable as SP be any different? In fact they may well drop other areas of interest if they had to just to make sure they control something so fundamental to peoples abilities as a pilot. Again it would be stupid not to. |
sixteen 64
Perkone Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:51:18 -
[4008] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:sixteen 64 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:sixteen 64 wrote:General Lootit wrote:Congrats everyone with hitting 200 page of feedback thread Devs must be happy Except 100 pages is this Dave guy, repeating himself over and over Anyways, I think we should just have a old fashioned vote, CCP have 23 likes, and this Ripard guy has 94 That means we win right CCP?! elise has over 500 on reddit last i checked and 3 of those gold star things. brb starting an SP farm. as you can see from the last few pages - a discussion is taking place. if you have an issue with me being the one presenting a counterpoint to every point made then *shrug* that's on you. the ISDs have been actively removing any rule breaking posts so what's left is all relevant and pertinent to the discussion. Oh, are you racing him?! no, i'm pointing out if we're going by popular vote i better hurry up making that SP farm. this train has no brakes.
Oh, I see, this elise guy has 500 likes! and not 500 posts as I thought you meant, damn and 3 gold stars...
New rule, Likes only count from the official forums where only subbed guys & girls can post!
|
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:52:26 -
[4009] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...
they can charge any price they want - but ANYONE can undercut them if they sell above cost price. while goon's pockets are deep they are not infinite.
... They don't have to be infinite, they simply buy up packets that undercut them and then sell them at the price they actually want to sell them at. They make more money than it costs to buy the packets. Infinite resources are not required, just basic marketing ability which I'm pretty sure they are way way above. to be honest, without knowing actual numbers there's no way to know if this is valid or not. however they'd have to purchase every single packet. every single one, as every single packet will undercut them if they try and sell above cost price. Not necessarily, just enough to control the market. Besides you just described how groups perform market warfare right now so why would something as valuable as SP be any different? In fact they may well drop other areas of interest if they had to just to make sure they control something so fundamental to peoples abilities as a pilot. Again it would be stupid not to.
because supply can be controlled in other markets, i guess is why it'd be different. anyone can start as many farms as they want, for no cost if power of 2 is running.
if goons are going to buy up any packet worth more than cost price then everyone's just going to go and suck on that teat. if goons are just going to start handing out isk like that, then i'll jump on that crazy train. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
250
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:53:36 -
[4010] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:brb starting an SP farm.
I thought you said you weren't really that interested in it, and now you're saying you want it for personal profits? *gasp*
Who knew.
|
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Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:53:41 -
[4011] - Quote
sixteen 64 wrote:Oh, I see, this elise guy has 500 likes! and not 500 posts as I thought you meant, damn and 3 gold stars... New rule, Likes only count from the official forums where only subbed guys & girls can post!
if goons can get multiple people on to the CSM by telling people who to vote for (all your own fault for not voting, people), i sincerely doubt outvoting ripard '90 likes' teg will be difficult. |
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:54:36 -
[4012] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:brb starting an SP farm. I thought you said you weren't really that interested in it, and now you're saying you want it for personal profits? *gasp* Who knew.
if i wanted to sell SP for isk, i can already do it. this idea doesn't enable that.
who knew? (oh right, everyone knew) |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:02:43 -
[4013] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:sixteen 64 wrote:General Lootit wrote:Congrats everyone with hitting 200 page of feedback thread Devs must be happy Except 100 pages is this Dave guy, repeating himself over and over Anyways, I think we should just have a old fashioned vote, CCP have 23 likes, and this Ripard guy has 94 That means we win right CCP?! elise has over 500 on reddit last i checked and 3 of those gold star things. brb starting an SP farm. as you can see from the last few pages - a discussion is taking place. if you have an issue with me being the one presenting a counterpoint to every point made then *shrug* that's on you. the ISDs have been actively removing any rule breaking posts so what's left is all relevant and pertinent to the discussion.
you never gave a reply to my question to which i was awaiting a response to:
Anything thats put on the bazaar whether its an old toon or a fresh tengu pilot that has been just trained in station and nothing else has to have its name listed on the bazaar for selling, you then watch when its sold, what corp it joins, where its located.
Thats all gone now, instaspawn toons are an invisible entity. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
444
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:03:49 -
[4014] - Quote
Any decision CCP? It's nice talking to Dave but I think it's time to show us what's your opinion about it. Another 200 pages won't make any difference here.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:08:42 -
[4015] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:sixteen 64 wrote:General Lootit wrote:Congrats everyone with hitting 200 page of feedback thread Devs must be happy Except 100 pages is this Dave guy, repeating himself over and over Anyways, I think we should just have a old fashioned vote, CCP have 23 likes, and this Ripard guy has 94 That means we win right CCP?! elise has over 500 on reddit last i checked and 3 of those gold star things. brb starting an SP farm. as you can see from the last few pages - a discussion is taking place. if you have an issue with me being the one presenting a counterpoint to every point made then *shrug* that's on you. the ISDs have been actively removing any rule breaking posts so what's left is all relevant and pertinent to the discussion. you never gave a reply to my question to which i was awaiting a response to: Anything thats put on the bazaar whether its an old toon or a fresh tengu pilot that has been just trained in station and nothing else has to have its name listed on the bazaar for selling, you then watch when its sold, what corp it joins, where its located. Thats all gone now, instaspawn toons are an invisible entity.
what question? |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
250
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:09:16 -
[4016] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Any decision CCP? It's nice talking to Dave but I think it's time to show us what's your opinion about it. Another 200 pages won't make any difference here. Well I am guessing this discussion didn't go as they had expected, so they are probably trying to work out how they can dig themselves out of this hole now. Also I wouldn't expect any confirmation until after vegas.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
78
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:13:53 -
[4017] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Any decision CCP? It's nice talking to Dave but I think it's time to show us what's your opinion about it. Another 200 pages won't make any difference here. Well I am guessing this discussion didn't go as they had expected, so they are probably trying to work out how they can dig themselves out of this hole now. Also I wouldn't expect any confirmation until after vegas.
i guess CCP knew how this discussion would go and just want to know what changes they have to make that a little more ppl are ok with it. i mean, CCP are not a bunch of idiots... they had to know what kind of feature they were talking about.
Kinda suits the SP trading discussion (lyrics in description)
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:14:22 -
[4018] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: Anything thats put on the bazaar whether its an old toon or a fresh tengu pilot that has been just trained in station and nothing else has to have its name listed on the bazaar for selling, you then watch when its sold, what corp it joins, where its located.
Thats all gone now, instaspawn toons are an invisible entity.
It's in favor of old fashion spying when you need gather information not from machines but from people. I think it defenetly good for social interections. |
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:17:24 -
[4019] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:brb starting an SP farm. I thought you said you weren't really that interested in it, and now you're saying you want it for personal profits? *gasp* Who knew. if i wanted to sell SP for isk, i can already do it. this idea doesn't enable that. who knew? (oh right, everyone knew)
The current Charactar Bazaar works.
1.) Your not directly selling SP as an individual item, the account is 1 package. It takes time to develop.
Example 1: I skill 1 character to sell on the bazaar, it takes me 2 years and I gain 48MSP to sell as an account.
2.) If you just sell SP indiviually, you could easy make 30 accounts and sell the SP over time. It takes a significant amount of time LESS than the above option to achieve higher SP values.
Example 2: I skill 30 Characters to sell the SP on the market, it takes me 2 years and I gain 48MSP per character.
I have an interest in a client that has made a significant amount of ISK in EVE, he buys 5x 48MSP= 240M SP, he then effectively MAXES out his account of SP. You still have 25x 48M SP remaining, all covering another 5 MAXED accounts.
Thats 6 Accounts that have been maxed in 2 Years!!!
When usually, it would take 12+ Years to Max 1 account!
3.) It would be ALOT quicker to MAX your account SP, In a short period EVERYONE will be Maxed out SP = boring game, everyone is equal, everyone can do everything, bored, nothing is unique, EVE is no longer a Sandbox game. Bye.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1772
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:18:40 -
[4020] - Quote
darkchild's corpse wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Any decision CCP? It's nice talking to Dave but I think it's time to show us what's your opinion about it. Another 200 pages won't make any difference here. Well I am guessing this discussion didn't go as they had expected, so they are probably trying to work out how they can dig themselves out of this hole now. Also I wouldn't expect any confirmation until after vegas. i guess CCP knew how this discussion would go and just want to know what changes they have to make that a little more ppl are ok with it. i mean, CCP are not a bunch of idiots... they had to know what kind of feature they were talking about.
They probably had two ideas for how to jigger with SP accrual and put the worst one up so that people are happy when they 'revisit' the idea and put forward the less bad one :D |
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
733
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:19:40 -
[4021] - Quote
darkchild's corpse wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Any decision CCP? It's nice talking to Dave but I think it's time to show us what's your opinion about it. Another 200 pages won't make any difference here. Well I am guessing this discussion didn't go as they had expected, so they are probably trying to work out how they can dig themselves out of this hole now. Also I wouldn't expect any confirmation until after vegas. i guess CCP knew how this discussion would go and just want to know what changes they have to make that a little more ppl are ok with it. i mean, CCP are not a bunch of idiots... they had to know what kind of feature they were talking about. You mean a feature that scrounges more $ from the player base - Of course they knew - Same as we know it will happen regardless of player feedback being for or against.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
|
Kaivar Lancer
Placid Peace Corps
684
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:19:45 -
[4022] - Quote
People have been buying "SP" off the Character Bazaar for years.
The only people crying are bitter elitists who HATE the idea of newbies buying SP and catching up. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1772
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:20:54 -
[4023] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:...
I have an interest in a client that has made a significant amount of ISK in EVE, he buys 5x 48MSP= 240M SP, he then effectively MAXES out his account of SP. You still have 25x 48M SP remaining, all covering another 5 MAXED accounts.
...
I think you forgot to account for the diminishing returns? |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
250
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:21:21 -
[4024] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:brb starting an SP farm. I thought you said you weren't really that interested in it, and now you're saying you want it for personal profits? *gasp* Who knew. if i wanted to sell SP for isk, i can already do it. this idea doesn't enable that. who knew? (oh right, everyone knew)
That's weird, because your "brb starting farm" means that you'd immediately switch from whatever you're doing atm do this new thing. Why would that be if it's, as you state, "exactly the same"?
And this quote of yours is also kinda weird:
Dave Stark wrote:because supply can be controlled in other markets, i guess is why it'd be different. anyone can start as many farms as they want, for no cost if power of 2 is running.
if goons are going to buy up any packet worth more than cost price then everyone's just going to go and suck on that teat. if goons are just going to start handing out isk like that, then i'll jump on that crazy train.
It's almost as if you already have a plan in place to take full advantage of this "exactly the same system you have stated to not really be for or against". Could it be that all this time you had a hidden agenda no one noticed? That instead of you just white knighting CCP you had a monetary motivation, a personal one, for it? Surely this can't be, we never expected this at all.
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:23:14 -
[4025] - Quote
Delegate wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:Speaking of which, there's been quite a few questions as to why the feature is being developed? What players are the target for this feature? I think it's fairly clearly described in the dev blog here:
"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether youGÇÖre an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you donGÇÖt use any more, a clever new player looking to invest your fortune into your character, a Corp leader trying to move everyone into a new doctrine or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly ArmageddonGÇÖs than Stilettos, this feature has you covered. This all fits nicely to our overall game design philosophy of giving you control over your experience through cooperation and competition with each other." Unfortunately it's not clearly described. These are some very broad philosophical arguments that one could used to support... well, a whole bunch of changes. I am fairly certain you did not come to decision to design the SP market lightly. There must be specific issues with the game that you want to address, and reasons why you believe SP market would be a good tool to do so. With the change of this magnitude, please be transparent with your player base. Ask for whatever permissions you need, and the tell us: why? This is an agreeable request, but it seems obvious that increasing sustain through allowing play options is key. There's no reason to redesign SP in any manner unless it's negatively affecting subs or overall game reception. It's actually only a problem because of the expectations of a sandbox -- coming to the game should be rewarded with full play, in idea. It's a subscription game.
If they're under-redesigning their own realizations, that SP is a problem (and the realization being backed by motivation theories, game theory, and decision theory.. plus the game's statistics), there's no guarantee that this type of update would greatly increase sustain. The reasons are clearly stated already, and even more is that the gaming market provides so much for so little. If it feels cheep now checking out character purchases, is it really the best method of updating the system -- monetizing it more? That's beyond other issues -- nerfing this for veteran play could reduce interest completely, but as-is it could affect a lot of play trends in favor of those with resources.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1772
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:23:27 -
[4026] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:People have been buying "SP" off the Character Bazaar for years.
The only people crying are bitter elitists who HATE the idea of newbies buying SP and catching up.
Actually I hate the idea of new players being expected (since that's what it'll become) to pay lots more RL money to just start playing the game. New players will not benefit from this change unless they invest a big chunk of cash. I really do hate that idea. |
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:24:11 -
[4027] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:brb starting an SP farm. I thought you said you weren't really that interested in it, and now you're saying you want it for personal profits? *gasp* Who knew. if i wanted to sell SP for isk, i can already do it. this idea doesn't enable that. who knew? (oh right, everyone knew) The current Charactar Bazaar works. 1.) Your not directly selling SP as an individual item, the account is 1 package. It takes time to develop. Example 1: I skill 1 character to sell on the bazaar, it takes me 2 years and I gain 48MSP to sell as an account. 2.) If you just sell SP indiviually, you could easy make 30 accounts and sell the SP over time. It takes a significant amount of time LESS than the above option to achieve higher SP values. Example 2: I skill 30 Characters to sell the SP on the market, it takes me 2 years and I gain 48MSP per character. I have an interest in a client that has made a significant amount of ISK in EVE, he buys 5x 48MSP= 240M SP, he then effectively MAXES out his account of SP. You still have 25x 48M SP remaining, all covering another 5 MAXED accounts. Thats 6 Accounts that have been maxed in 2 Years!!! When usually, it would take 12+ Years to Max 1 account! 3.) It would be ALOT quicker to MAX your account SP, In a short period EVERYONE will be Maxed out SP = boring game, everyone is equal, everyone can do everything, bored, nothing is unique, EVE is no longer a Sandbox game. Bye.
i am selling SP directly. i have farmed 60k SP, i am then selling them all to some one else for a sum of isk less my 2 plex transfer fee costs.
in both situations i'm doing the same thing - turning training time in to isk.
you claimed my interest in this was because i can start an "sp farm" - the new system allows me to convert SP in to isk, as does the current one. SP farms are not new and i can still start an SP farm now if i want to. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
250
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:24:45 -
[4028] - Quote
On a (perhaps not) completely different note: This new system would be VERY susceptible to RMT practices. "I give you SP, you give me uhm... things... yeah!". |
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:31:41 -
[4029] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:brb starting an SP farm. I thought you said you weren't really that interested in it, and now you're saying you want it for personal profits? *gasp* Who knew. if i wanted to sell SP for isk, i can already do it. this idea doesn't enable that. who knew? (oh right, everyone knew) The current Charactar Bazaar works. 1.) Your not directly selling SP as an individual item, the account is 1 package. It takes time to develop. Example 1: I skill 1 character to sell on the bazaar, it takes me 2 years and I gain 48MSP to sell as an account. 2.) If you just sell SP indiviually, you could easy make 30 accounts and sell the SP over time. It takes a significant amount of time LESS than the above option to achieve higher SP values. Example 2: I skill 30 Characters to sell the SP on the market, it takes me 2 years and I gain 48MSP per character. I have an interest in a client that has made a significant amount of ISK in EVE, he buys 5x 48MSP= 240M SP, he then effectively MAXES out his account of SP. You still have 25x 48M SP remaining, all covering another 5 MAXED accounts. Thats 6 Accounts that have been maxed in 2 Years!!! When usually, it would take 12+ Years to Max 1 account! 3.) It would be ALOT quicker to MAX your account SP, In a short period EVERYONE will be Maxed out SP = boring game, everyone is equal, everyone can do everything, bored, nothing is unique, EVE is no longer a Sandbox game. Bye. i am selling SP directly. i have farmed 60k SP, i am then selling them all to some one else for a sum of isk less my 2 plex transfer fee costs. in both situations i'm doing the same thing - turning training time in to isk. you claimed my interest in this was because i can start an "sp farm" - the new system allows me to convert SP in to isk, as does the current one. SP farms are not new and i can still start an SP farm now if i want to.
But again, you've missed the point, narrow minded or rather over look the fact that SP will be ready available for each person. People with RL Cash or significant amount of ISK can purchase their way to MAX SP! In a flicker or a button. Usually it would take 12+ Years to cover a Maxed account. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
250
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:32:44 -
[4030] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:And this quote of yours is also kinda weird: Dave Stark wrote:because supply can be controlled in other markets, i guess is why it'd be different. anyone can start as many farms as they want, for no cost if power of 2 is running.
if goons are going to buy up any packet worth more than cost price then everyone's just going to go and suck on that teat. if goons are just going to start handing out isk like that, then i'll jump on that crazy train. It's almost as if you already have a plan in place to take full advantage of this "exactly the same system you have stated to not really be for or against". Could it be that all this time you had a hidden agenda no one noticed? That instead of you just white knighting CCP you had a monetary motivation, a personal one, for it? Surely this can't be, we never expected this at all. i have a plan in place to take advantage of a system that i've pointed out has 0 potential for profit? you're welcome to present some maths to prove that there's a profit to be had in this system. on an individual level i personally can't find any. unless goons just start handing out isk by buying TSPs above cost price - i won't be creating accounts to farm isk. if power of 2 rolls around again will i make an alt to farm SP? i'll probably do so, yes. as i mentioned earlier it's essentially "free" i'll train it for 6 months, sell 3 months of SP then ice it. i'll have made 0 profit from doing that. so why would i? because then i will have instant access to a farm ready character IF i ever need it (which i don't see happening but if it's free... why not?)
That's weird, it sounds like you can't wait to start doing it even in favour of your current character sales setup. Surely you have a reason for that :) |
|
Dave Stark
7621
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:34:11 -
[4031] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:But again, you've missed the point, narrow minded or rather over look the fact that SP will be ready available for each person. People with RL Cash or significant amount of ISK can purchase their way to MAX SP! In a flicker or a button. Usually it would take 12+ Years to cover a Maxed account.
i haven't missed anything.
these arguments are irrelevant. i was accused of having a personal stake in the matter. i pointed out i still don't give a **** either way because even if i wanted to sell SP i could.
what other people do is of no relevance to an accusation saying "you have a personal interest in this". |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1775
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:36:15 -
[4032] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...
you claimed my interest in this was because i can start an "sp farm" - the new system allows me to convert SP in to isk, as does the current one. SP farms are not new and i can still start an SP farm now if i want to. But you can't use the current system to steal the skill souls of your alts over time to increase your mains training rate by one char's worth of SP per alt per month.Unless CCP give some very good reason not to do this on your main then every character with PI alts and the ISK available will do this and as far as new player perceptions go leave them behind even further unless they throw yet more RL cash at the game. no, instead i can just sell my alts, and my main, then use the cash to buy what i wanted my alt to be in the first place.
Actually you can't unless you a very lucky. You can buy something that's a close approximation but not with a name you chose. This new 'feature' will allow people to boost there main learning rate by whatever amount of characters worth of SP they can afford to PLEX. |
Dave Stark
7622
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:37:38 -
[4033] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:That's weird, it sounds like you can't wait to start doing it even in favour of your current character sales setup. Surely you have a reason for that :) Character sales currently account for exactly 0% of...anything. i'm not a character seller. nor am i going to rush to enter a market with a 0% profit margin.
i simply think this is a very interesting topic. actually, i find it moderately interesting. what i find interesting is all the subsequent discussions being born from it - such as ideas about future models for CCP revenue that have started to happen on various blogs and discussion forums etc.
one doesn't have to participate in something to find it interesting and worthy of discussion. i'm not an astronaut or physicist. i doubt you are either. however we both love sci-fi, that's why we're here. no? |
Dave Stark
7622
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:40:00 -
[4034] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Actually you can't unless you a very lucky. You can buy something that's a close approximation but not with a name you chose. This new 'feature' will allow people to boost there main learning rate by whatever amount of characters worth of SP they can afford to PLEX.
as long as i have a character that does what i need it to, it doesn't matter how "close" it is to being the bare minimum. names are an irrelevance, as long as it's not obscene. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:45:37 -
[4035] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: Anything thats put on the bazaar whether its an old toon or a fresh tengu pilot that has been just trained in station and nothing else has to have its name listed on the bazaar for selling, you then watch when its sold, what corp it joins, where its located.
Thats all gone now, instaspawn toons are an invisible entity.
It's in favor of old fashion spying when you need gather information not from machines but from people. I think it defenetly good for social interections. At least you offered an excuse over daves dodge ball again, spying a chance but unlikely. it wouldnt take more than two occasions of huge fleets being hot dropped for the demonising of new players taking there first steps out of hisec to be jumped on through for fear of what they maybe bringing with them. Strong guys bullying weak ones. It was and it will be. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1775
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:48:06 -
[4036] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:... however we both love sci-fi, that's why we're here. no?
Actually I'm here because I like character based RPG games...so you can see why I'd be against the idea (ignoring the various game altering aspects of it)
|
Dave Stark
7622
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:49:14 -
[4037] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:... however we both love sci-fi, that's why we're here. no? Actually I'm here because I like character based RPG games...so you can see why I'd be against the idea (ignoring the various game altering aspects of it)
there's always one... |
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:49:16 -
[4038] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:But again, you've missed the point, narrow minded or rather over look the fact that SP will be ready available for each person. People with RL Cash or significant amount of ISK can purchase their way to MAX SP! In a flicker or a button. Usually it would take 12+ Years to cover a Maxed account. i haven't missed anything. these arguments are irrelevant. i was accused of having a personal stake in the matter. i pointed out i still don't give a **** either way because even if i wanted to sell SP i could. what other people do is of no relevance to an accusation saying "you have a personal interest in this".
Yes, under the current system, we can sell SP but it is restricted to that account. I have passion and want to see EVE develop for a further 20 years! I understand now, that you don't give a Sh*t about EVE or its player base. As long as you play how you want then its "fine".
Selling SP as an item for instant gratification goes against the players that have stuck with EVE since day 1. EVE is unique, it takes time to develop each pilot, selling SP as bulk takes time away.
|
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
260
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:53:59 -
[4039] - Quote
Vahligmarr wrote:This makes the whole idea even more terrifying..... no matter what you call it....it smells like PtoW, and this message will be spread.....
i'm sorry, it's probably just me being thick, but pay to win what? SPS? i had 180 mil sps last time i checked, and i still have allot of stuff to train; why should i care that my enemy has 10 or 100 mil sps? oh right, i won't be able to just murder him just by the "weight" of my skills+fittings+ships and brag about how good i am.. that's right. the fact that i was born 1o years earlier that some 18 year guy that just find out about eve and started playing should not give me some all time advantage over him(i have allot of those in isk/stuff/exp), and it's not: caracter bazar; but the prices there are prohibitive for most new players, so most of them, at some point, get the next problem: should i invest allot of $ in plex and buy a char or should i just look for another game? and statistic say they quit.
a 45-50 mil char is allot of isk, 20+billion isk, a price that very few new players can afford ; this new proposed mechanic lower that threshold by several hundred times; so instead of a small nr of ppl who use it atm, allot more new players can use it at a relative cheap price;
so, the fact that more ppl will be able to use it is bad? i really don't get you ppl: the only honest answer i can think of is hypocrisy: "i suffered thru those months and months of training so everyone else must suffer also"
i admit there are some real issues that this new mechanic, but nothing that can't be solved by real feedback:
some ppl have a problem with some one day old dictor/hictor pilot? - one easy solution will be that a char need to reach a certain age(5-10-15 days for ex) to be able to use this sp bag thingy other are complaining about players building "super chars" - easy solution: add a max cap at using this thing, maybe 100 mil sp or 70 or 50 or even 20, hell this cap can be agreed upon, i'm sure; even put a cap on how many bags a player can use in a period of time can be a solution- you got too many sps injected, you get aftereffects like reduced training speed or whatever should i go on?
the fact is, once you get some time to think, eve need this; if we want to have a game to play in the next few years, this among others things that CCP must do, will help the game to survive;
put yourself for a minute in a new player spot: you join this game called eve and find that to use the shinny t2 hacs everyone talk about you need to wait some 6 months; then more months for a nice t2 bs and some years for some capital ship... hell i won't wait that long, i'll just go for another game.... back in the day when i started, i did this, yes, but back then, eve was THE GAME, not like today with so may other options; and the distance between me and "vets" was 2-3 years; now? 11 years?? ELEVEN YEARS! and you can't do nothing to catch up with those players(except char bazar ofc, but most players find about that later in the game)
tldr:yes, some vets will exploit this, but with a good feedback and assuming CCP listen those can be limited; is it perfect? ofc not, but can be improved, that's the purpose of this discution
will some alliances/corps put pressure on the new player to buy those bags and advance faster? i'm sure some will, but i'm also sure some alliances/corps will give those for free or close, to the new players; this is eve, things will balance themself
and the most important thing :is this a better option for the new player over the character bazar? yes it is.
|
Skinzee
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
22
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:58:18 -
[4040] - Quote
Heathkit wrote:It's sad to see the overreactions in this thread. I'm very impressed with this feature - it's a clever, elegant addition to the game. It takes an arcane and obscure process (trading characters via the forum), and adds depth to the game by creating a new market.
People were already taking advantages of PLEX deals and referral bonuses to start accounts and use them to "grow" characters to sell on the bazaar. This approach just makes that process more approachable and accessible to the majority of players. I really like the idea of being able to trade skill points without having to also trade a character's identity, or get some value out of the skill points I have but no longer want.
The process is totally driven through the player market. You already needed plex to trade characters, anyway. Obviously, they need to balance the details so that trading skillpoints isn't prohibitively expensive, but even if they get it wrong it just means no one will use the feature until they fix it.
Honestly, I think this is the kind of progressive thinking we should be encouraging from CCP.
This... Just this... Perfectly said. /Applause |
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
250
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:06:40 -
[4041] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:That's weird, it sounds like you can't wait to start doing it even in favour of your current character sales setup. Surely you have a reason for that :) Character sales currently account for exactly 0% of...anything. i'm not a character seller. nor am i going to rush to enter a market with a 0% profit margin. i simply think this is a very interesting topic. actually, i find it moderately interesting. what i find interesting is all the subsequent discussions being born from it - such as ideas about future models for CCP revenue that have started to happen on various blogs and discussion forums etc. one doesn't have to participate in something to find it interesting and worthy of discussion. i'm not an astronaut or physicist. i doubt you are either. however we both love sci-fi, that's why we're here. no?
Right right, that's why you can't wait to start a farm. |
Dave Stark
7622
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:07:04 -
[4042] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Yes, under the current system, we can sell SP but it is restricted to that account. I have passion and want to see EVE develop for a further 20 years! I understand now, that you don't give a Sh*t about EVE or its player base. As long as you play how you want then its "fine".
Selling SP as an item for instant gratification goes against the players that have stuck with EVE since day 1. EVE is unique, it takes time to develop each pilot, selling SP as bulk takes time away.
you could just try making valid points than throwing insults. i already play how i want, and it is fine. you seem to be rather upset that i responded to a question directly aimed at me, and not even a question asked by yourself.
each SP pack takes time to develop, selling pilots takes time away. |
Dave Stark
7622
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:08:17 -
[4043] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:That's weird, it sounds like you can't wait to start doing it even in favour of your current character sales setup. Surely you have a reason for that :) Character sales currently account for exactly 0% of...anything. i'm not a character seller. nor am i going to rush to enter a market with a 0% profit margin. i simply think this is a very interesting topic. actually, i find it moderately interesting. what i find interesting is all the subsequent discussions being born from it - such as ideas about future models for CCP revenue that have started to happen on various blogs and discussion forums etc. one doesn't have to participate in something to find it interesting and worthy of discussion. i'm not an astronaut or physicist. i doubt you are either. however we both love sci-fi, that's why we're here. no? Right right, that's why you can't want to start a farm.
yes, i can't wait to start a farm to make exactly 0 isk. i've already explained why won't be participating in the SP packet market. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
250
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:09:25 -
[4044] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:That's weird, it sounds like you can't wait to start doing it even in favour of your current character sales setup. Surely you have a reason for that :) Character sales currently account for exactly 0% of...anything. i'm not a character seller. nor am i going to rush to enter a market with a 0% profit margin. i simply think this is a very interesting topic. actually, i find it moderately interesting. what i find interesting is all the subsequent discussions being born from it - such as ideas about future models for CCP revenue that have started to happen on various blogs and discussion forums etc. one doesn't have to participate in something to find it interesting and worthy of discussion. i'm not an astronaut or physicist. i doubt you are either. however we both love sci-fi, that's why we're here. no? Right right, that's why you can't want to start a farm. yes, i can't wait to start a farm to make exactly 0 isk. i've already explained why won't be participating in the SP packet market.
You're a goon alt (no problem wit that), would be great to have goons as your customers and RMT a bit off of it, wouldn't. |
Dave Stark
7622
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:15:45 -
[4045] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:That's weird, it sounds like you can't wait to start doing it even in favour of your current character sales setup. Surely you have a reason for that :) Character sales currently account for exactly 0% of...anything. i'm not a character seller. nor am i going to rush to enter a market with a 0% profit margin. i simply think this is a very interesting topic. actually, i find it moderately interesting. what i find interesting is all the subsequent discussions being born from it - such as ideas about future models for CCP revenue that have started to happen on various blogs and discussion forums etc. one doesn't have to participate in something to find it interesting and worthy of discussion. i'm not an astronaut or physicist. i doubt you are either. however we both love sci-fi, that's why we're here. no? Right right, that's why you can't want to start a farm. yes, i can't wait to start a farm to make exactly 0 isk. i've already explained why won't be participating in the SP packet market. You're a goon alt (no problem wit that), would be great to have goons as your customers and RMT a bit off of it, wouldn't.
"i disagree with you but i have no legitimate points so i'm going to call you a goon". |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
250
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:17:26 -
[4046] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:You're a goon alt (no problem wit that), would be great to have goons as your customers and RMT a bit off of it, wouldn't. "i disagree with you but i have no legitimate points so i'm going to call you a goon".
I see you're not so craftily avoiding the actual question. It's a simple "be close to your customer base" kind of thing, I'm sure you know what I mean. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:25:09 -
[4047] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote: But again, you've missed the point, narrow minded or rather over look the fact that SP will be ready available for each person. People with RL Cash or significant amount of ISK can purchase their way to MAX SP! In a flicker or a button. Usually it would take 12+ Years to cover a Maxed account.
I doubt that everyone will train same skils and there no chance that even small group of players will be able(or wishing to) to maxing out every skill because creating new specialized toon will be cost much cheaper than maxing out single charachter. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
446
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:26:49 -
[4048] - Quote
We don't need skill at all then. They are arfitificial barriers that prevent us from doing things in game that have subscription. Now CCP want to charge us for speeding up training for something we don't need. Because it the end they won't matter. I can beat week old player that bought character on market/paid for SP, because of my experience in the game. Catching up by money won't solve anything, I already have experience that new player don't have, and he can't gain it in week of playing.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere Coalition of the Unfortunate
1523
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:30:20 -
[4049] - Quote
Hmmm...
As a side note, I wonder how long it will be before trolls start wanting to ruin peoples' games by extract skillpoints, as well as more tears.
"We will drop this wardec, but we want to see your CEOs skill API, and we want him to buy 4 extractors and hand over a month of his own personal skills as ransom.. and we're going to use your API to check they are actually his skills".
It will happen. You all know it will happen. CCP could of course outlaw any kind of extortion which deals with direct SP, but it's quite unlikely. |
Kaivar Lancer
Placid Peace Corps
685
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:36:46 -
[4050] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Actually I hate the idea of new players being expected (since that's what it'll become) to pay lots more RL money to just start playing the game. New players will not benefit from this change unless they invest a big chunk of cash. I really do hate that idea.
What do you mean? I've met quite a few newbies who hated Eve because you couldn't do anything to actively speed up SP and catch up with vets. If SP was buyable, newbies could actively "speed up" their SP by earning ISK and converting it into SP. This option accommodates more playing styles. |
|
Mercury Eyes
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:37:55 -
[4051] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:On a slightly different and more constructive note, what about an idea of applying a jump fatigue-esque mechanism to these SP injections rather than the diminishing returns? Want to use them as a one off to get into that ship you've always wanted, go nuts. Keep jabbing yourself like a SP crazed junkie then your going to have to wait a very long time before you can do it again as penance for those initial few jumps in SP.
1st Injection, 24 hours until you can use another with a 4 week extended timer. Use another in that 4 week window and your first timer for your second injection is suddenly a week. Do it again and its now a month plus. A few injections later you've locked yourself out of using this feature for a year or more. The only abuse this leaves is a real low SP alts, which lets face it with the starting player boosts, implants and accelerators was never a big wait to begin with.
While jump fatigue needs to die in a fire, this might be one area worthy of such a limiting mechanic. Maybe even move the remap timer over to a similar mechanism? |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:42:17 -
[4052] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:We don't need skill at all then. They are arfitificial barriers that prevent us from doing things in game that have subscription. Now CCP want to charge us for speeding up training for something we don't need. Because it the end they won't matter. I can beat week old player that bought character on market/paid for SP, because of my experience in the game. Catching up by money won't solve anything, I already have experience that new player don't have, and he can't gain it in week of playing. PvP is one of many in-game activiies which also requiring SP. But addition SP also could contribute to PvP especially when you joining fleet because they demand spetial fits(doctrine). |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
446
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:45:09 -
[4053] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:PvP is one of many in-game activiies which also requiring SP. But addition SP also could contribute to PvP especially when you joining fleet because they demand spetial fits(doctrine). and you didn't understand a word from what I wrote.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:46:09 -
[4054] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:But again, you've missed the point, narrow minded or rather over look the fact that SP will be ready available for each person. People with RL Cash or significant amount of ISK can purchase their way to MAX SP! In a flicker or a button. Usually it would take 12+ Years to cover a Maxed account. i haven't missed anything. these arguments are irrelevant. i was accused of having a personal stake in the matter. i pointed out i still don't give a **** either way because even if i wanted to sell SP i could. what other people do is of no relevance to an accusation saying "you have a personal interest in this". Yes, under the current system, we can sell SP but it is restricted to that account. I have passion and want to see EVE develop for a further 20 years! I understand now, that you don't give a Sh*t about EVE or its player base. As long as you play how you want then its "fine". Selling SP as an item for instant gratification goes against the players that have stuck with EVE since day 1. EVE is unique, it takes time to develop each pilot, selling SP as bulk takes time away. There's no valid logical, philosophical, nor design base for saying that a game should remain the way it is because that's how it always was. It's saying nothing about instant gratification, nor the impact of SP. Actually, EVE has a pretty low PCU for sporting a decent fresh character amount.
What neither Dave's nor any other post is addressing is, even if this is somewhat helpful for fresh subs, how it should effect the game's reception.. or why it's being suggested.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:46:54 -
[4055] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:Hmmm...
As a side note, I wonder how long it will be before trolls start wanting to ruin peoples' games by extract skillpoints, as well as more tears.
"We will drop this wardec, but we want to see your CEOs skill API, and we want him to buy 4 extractors and hand over a month of his own personal skills as ransom.. and we're going to use your API to check they are actually his skills".
It will happen. You all know it will happen. CCP could of course outlaw any kind of extortion which deals with direct SP, but it's quite unlikely.
Obviously a person can re-buy skills they've been "forced" to lose, but with those dampening factors it could be a fairly massive multiplier (6.25x in the worst-case).
Then again, if CCP did it thoughtfully they'd be able to apply the dampening multiplier only on skillpoints beyond those which have previously been earned naturally.
Welcome to joys of the sandbox (If we can even call it a sandbox anymore. Now days EvE is the equivalent of a sandbox in which you can be as creative as you like so long as you only build sandcastles...and only so long as they meet a strict string of guidelines.)
Anyway, I have no issue with people being "forced" to hand over SP. It's like anything else in EvE, it's up to the extortee to run a risk vs reward calculation and decide what to do. In most cases it will be cheaper just to man up and take the war dec longer. |
Dave Stark
7622
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:48:32 -
[4056] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:Hmmm...
As a side note, I wonder how long it will be before trolls start wanting to ruin peoples' games by extract skillpoints, as well as more tears.
"We will drop this wardec, but we want to see your CEOs skill API, and we want him to buy 4 extractors and hand over a month of his own personal skills as ransom.. and we're going to use your API to check they are actually his skills".
It will happen. You all know it will happen. CCP could of course outlaw any kind of extortion which deals with direct SP, but it's quite unlikely.
Obviously a person can re-buy skills they've been "forced" to lose, but with those dampening factors it could be a fairly massive multiplier (6.25x in the worst-case).
Then again, if CCP did it thoughtfully they'd be able to apply the dampening multiplier only on skillpoints beyond those which have previously been earned naturally. Welcome to joys of the sandbox (If we can even call it a sandbox anymore. Now days EvE is the equivalent of a sandbox in which you can be as creative as you like so long as you only build sandcastles...and only so long as they meet a strict string of guidelines.) Anyway, I have no issue with people being "forced" to hand over SP. It's like anything else in EvE, it's up to the extortee to run a risk vs reward calculation and decide what to do. In most cases it will be cheaper just to man up and take the war dec longer. Also remember that any removed SP can also be replaced.
or you could just reform the corp and say "what wardec?" |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2201
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:48:38 -
[4057] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Actually I hate the idea of new players being expected (since that's what it'll become) to pay lots more RL money to just start playing the game. New players will not benefit from this change unless they invest a big chunk of cash. I really do hate that idea.
What do you mean? I've met quite a few newbies who hated Eve because you couldn't do anything to actively speed up SP and catch up with vets. If SP was buyable, newbies could actively "speed up" their SP by earning ISK and converting it into SP. This option accommodates more playing styles.
And of course, newbies are competing on isk levels with the likes of me, farming WH's, right?
I mean it's not like vets have hilarious levels of isk to spit out perfect alts on demand to a shifting meta. Nah that will NEVER happen
I mean sure it'll be expensive (so that clearly helps newbies) and that totally blocked super proliferation, too, right? |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
250
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:52:11 -
[4058] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:You're a goon alt (no problem wit that), would be great to have goons as your customers and RMT a bit off of it, wouldn't. "i disagree with you but i have no legitimate points so i'm going to call you a goon". I see you're not so craftily avoiding the actual question. It's a simple "be close to your customer base" kind of thing, I'm sure you know what I mean. must have missed the question since you didn't throw a question mark in there. what question did i avoid? i assume you're implying i'm going to be involved in some RMT scheme involving the new SP packets?
- the system lends itself to massive RMT - you're a goon alt and expressed a desire to have your fellow Goons "suck at the teet", as you put it, and you "can't wait to set up an SP farm" - you're stating there 0 isk profits involved - you're unwilling to disclose the real reason of you sperg posting
All the newbros will be your customers as they want SP more than they need isk.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 12:57:54 -
[4059] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:General Lootit wrote:PvP is one of many in-game activiies which also requiring SP. But addition SP also could contribute to PvP especially when you joining fleet because they demand spetial fits(doctrine). and you didn't understand a word from what I wrote. Maybe exactly opposite?
Jeremiah Saken wrote: I can beat week old player that bought character on market/paid for SP, because of my experience in the game.
General Lootit wrote:PvP is one of many in-game activiies which also requiring SP. But addition SP also could contribute to PvP especially when you joining fleet because they demand spetial fits(doctrine). Now is clear enough?
Also
Jeremiah Saken wrote: We don't need skill at all then... training for something we don't need
You are just taking too much. |
Dave Stark
7622
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:00:27 -
[4060] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:You're a goon alt (no problem wit that), would be great to have goons as your customers and RMT a bit off of it, wouldn't. "i disagree with you but i have no legitimate points so i'm going to call you a goon". I see you're not so craftily avoiding the actual question. It's a simple "be close to your customer base" kind of thing, I'm sure you know what I mean. must have missed the question since you didn't throw a question mark in there. what question did i avoid? i assume you're implying i'm going to be involved in some RMT scheme involving the new SP packets? - the system lends itself to massive RMT - you're a goon alt and expressed a desire to have your fellow Goons "suck at the teet", as you put it, and you "can't wait to set up an SP farm" - you're stating there 0 isk profits involved - you're unwilling to disclose the real reason of you sperg posting All the newbros will be your customers as they want SP more than they need isk.
how, exactly, does it lend itself to RMT? you've lost me there.
no, i've expressed that if ANYONE were to start buying SP packets at above cost price i'd throw as many as i can at them because it's a profitable venture. goons were just the example that were cited by some one else. however, i've pointed out that i won't be doing that because i don't think anyone will be that dumb as to just hand out free isk to people.
yes, i am stating that there are 0 isk profits involved in setting up characters who's only purpose is to generate SP to be sold at a profit.
"you're countering my arguments with facts, stop sperging".
i have no doubt that there will be many customers, however i have even less doubt that there will be even more suppliers. |
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
446
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:02:33 -
[4061] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Maybe exactly opposite? Not even close. Carry on, nothing to see here. \ Edit: but you found underline.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
263
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:03:12 -
[4062] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:We don't need skill at all then. They are arfitificial barriers that prevent us from doing things in game that have subscription. Now CCP want to charge us for speeding up training for something we don't need. Because it the end they won't matter. I can beat week old player that bought character on market/paid for SP, because of my experience in the game. Catching up by money won't solve anything, I already have experience that new player don't have, and he can't gain it in week of playing.
yes and no; catching up by money usually don't solve anything. but there are exceptions; there are players out there that can learn very fast and the only thing limiting them to beat you is the fact that they just don't have the sps, now they can wait for a few months, of go invest allot of money into a bazar char; with the new option, they can invest a small amount of money and get that hac lvl5 for ex and be on about the same lvl with you;
given the 2 options, invest a large amount of money and buy some 50 mil sp char, or investing a modest amount and buy some 1-2 mil sps to fly your hac/t3 well, which one you consider better?
i see allot of ppl here crying for the "new player". so , it was ok for a new player to pay 40 bil isk for a new char, but it's wrong to pay 400 mil for 500k sps? "oh but the time we spent training" is a good reason for them while conveniently forgoting to add that when most of them started "vets" where 2-3-4-5 years old, the main doctrines where bcs/bs, and they where able to be in one of those ships in what 3 months?; how about the fact that any pilot was bringing whatever ship he had with t1 guns and so on...
now? vets are 10-11 years old, and main doctrines are hacs/t3/bcs/carriers, how long till a new player can fly all of those? or any of those? the game we played when we joined it's not the game of today; gameplay evolved how about skilling to this too?
|
Kaivar Lancer
Placid Peace Corps
686
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:03:56 -
[4063] - Quote
Eve has always been ultra-capitalist. Let the skill-point market be free. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:07:16 -
[4064] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote: and you didn't understand a word from what I wrote.
OK. Than I can't unerstand something meaningless. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:07:49 -
[4065] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:Eve has always been ultra-capitalist. Let the skill-point market be free. Isn't it more like removing SP to let the market be free.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:14:16 -
[4066] - Quote
gascanu wrote:Vahligmarr wrote:This makes the whole idea even more terrifying..... no matter what you call it....it smells like PtoW, and this message will be spread..... ... so, the fact that more ppl will be able to use it is bad? i really don't get you ppl: the only honest answer i can think of is hypocrisy: "i suffered thru those months and months of training so everyone else must suffer also" ... the fact is, once you get some time to think, eve need this; if we want to have a game to play in the next few years, this among others things that CCP must do, will help the game to survive; ... and the most important thing :is this a better option for the new player over the character bazar? yes it is.
As somebody else already stated, this speed training will become a necessity not an option... like the learning skills were... CCP removed them, because they added nothing to the game, now they plan to put something similar back in, with the difference, they can charge for it. Learning Skills for Real Money if you like.....
And to be honest, have you ever had a better gaming experience, just by shortpassing things, like buying XPs, Gold, Levels or what ever. Playing a game for a long long time, to reach a goal, far ahead, rewards me.... i am not suffering on the way, i gather expierence....
Right now, we are buying SP already, with subscription time, but only a certain amount per month is possible. Everyone was limited by this rule, rich, poor, veteran, newbie, caldari, gallente, and so on....., in future, if this idea comes true, you can have as much SP as you want, with real money as the only limiting factor.
You are able to buy, ISK (gold) + SP (xp or character levels) in an MMORPG with Real Money... that is true pay to win if you ask me... |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
446
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:15:19 -
[4067] - Quote
gascanu wrote:given the 2 options, invest a large amount of money and buy some 50 mil sp char, or investing a modest amount and buy some 1-2 mil sps to fly your hac/t3 well, which one you consider better? None. EvE is based on RPG training system. Very old one and after decade it shows how bad it is. It's better to give players an option to fly what they want even if they will be doing it worse than 100 mil charater. They won't have a feeling that is 6 months to fly HAC or 1,5 year to fly titan. I don't really care about RPG side right now, most of player base don't give a **** about lore in this game. Leveling character is too slow to stay in game, and charge it to train faster won't solve it, as many examples here only make this game even worse.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:15:40 -
[4068] - Quote
Dror wrote:Kaivar Lancer wrote:Eve has always been ultra-capitalist. Let the skill-point market be free. Isn't it more like removing SP to let the market be free. It's not removing. Change just adding additional option to boost SP by in-game activity. |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:20:22 -
[4069] - Quote
Vahligmarr wrote:gascanu wrote:Vahligmarr wrote:This makes the whole idea even more terrifying..... no matter what you call it....it smells like PtoW, and this message will be spread..... ... so, the fact that more ppl will be able to use it is bad? i really don't get you ppl: the only honest answer i can think of is hypocrisy: "i suffered thru those months and months of training so everyone else must suffer also" ... the fact is, once you get some time to think, eve need this; if we want to have a game to play in the next few years, this among others things that CCP must do, will help the game to survive; ... and the most important thing :is this a better option for the new player over the character bazar? yes it is. As somebody else already stated, this speed training will become a necessity not an option... like the learning skills were... CCP removed them, because they added nothing to the game, now they plan to put something similar back in, with the difference, they can charge for it. Learning Skills for Real Money if you like..... And to be honest, have you ever had a better gaming experience, just by shortpassing things, like buying XPs, Gold, Levels or what ever. Playing a game for a long long time, to reach a goal, far ahead, rewards me.... i am not suffering on the way, i gather expierence.... Right now, we are buying SP already, with subscription time, but only a certain amount per month is possible. Everyone was limited by this rule, rich, poor, veteran, newbie, caldari, gallente, and so on....., in future, if this idea comes true, you can have as much SP as you want, with real money as the only limiting factor. You are able to buy, ISK (gold) + SP (xp or character levels) in an MMORPG with Real Money... that is true pay to win if you ask me...
Ah there is that phrase again. Pay to Win. At best it's Pay to Access. Skill points don't provide victory, they provide access to specific micro-portions of game content (such as ships and modules) and by extension greater content beyond as a consequence. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
250
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:25:03 -
[4070] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i have no doubt that there will be many customers, however i have even less doubt that there will be even more suppliers.
So explain to us then why you "can't wait to set up an SP farm" as you stated? I'm sure you have a perfectly credible and obvious reason for that :) |
|
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:25:49 -
[4071] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote: Pay to Access.
Hardly better tho really is it...
|
Dave stark
7622
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:31:09 -
[4072] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i have no doubt that there will be many customers, however i have even less doubt that there will be even more suppliers. So explain to us then why you "can't wait to set up an SP farm" as you stated? I'm sure you have a perfectly credible and obvious reason for that :)
how many times do i have to point out that i'm not participating in the market as i don't see any profit from it, and that i'll be setting up a farm that i will then leave to expire because with the power of 2 deal it will be free? 5? 10? 30?
i've already stated this, and answered your questions many times over. repeatedly asking me won't make me change it to fit your narrative.
is there a reason why you've asked me the same question a few times in a row despite being given the answer every time? |
Dave stark
7622
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:31:58 -
[4073] - Quote
ColdBeauty wrote:Rawthorm wrote: Pay to Access.
Hardly better tho really is it...
still better than "10 years behind veterans with 0 way to close the gap". |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12757
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:33:13 -
[4074] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Kaivar Lancer wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Actually I hate the idea of new players being expected (since that's what it'll become) to pay lots more RL money to just start playing the game. New players will not benefit from this change unless they invest a big chunk of cash. I really do hate that idea.
What do you mean? I've met quite a few newbies who hated Eve because you couldn't do anything to actively speed up SP and catch up with vets. If SP was buyable, newbies could actively "speed up" their SP by earning ISK and converting it into SP. This option accommodates more playing styles. And of course, newbies are competing on isk levels with the likes of me, farming WH's, right? I mean it's not like vets have hilarious levels of isk to spit out perfect alts on demand to a shifting meta. Nah that will NEVER happen I mean sure it'll be expensive (so that clearly helps newbies) and that totally blocked super proliferation, too, right?
Isn't that always the case? CCP implements something that might work...if not for the 12 years of entrenched wealth that makes their efforts futile.
Even with out "old money" It's so easy to make isk now (going to be made even worse by this CONCORD tribute system idea), that any thought of something being balanced by cost is ridiculous. |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:33:40 -
[4075] - Quote
ColdBeauty wrote:Rawthorm wrote: Pay to Access.
Hardly better tho really is it...
Way to selectively quote so as to only leave behind the most dreaded phrase in gaming circles.
Paying to access content in the context of my previous post has been in the game since day one in the form of 2 currencies, ISK and SP. Both are obtained over time, one actively and one passively. We can already accelerate one with Plex, so what difference is there in allowing players to accelerating the other? |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
264
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:38:18 -
[4076] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:gascanu wrote:given the 2 options, invest a large amount of money and buy some 50 mil sp char, or investing a modest amount and buy some 1-2 mil sps to fly your hac/t3 well, which one you consider better? None. EvE is based on RPG training system. Very old one and after decade it shows how bad it is. It's better to give players an option to fly what they want even if they will be doing it worse than 100 mil charater. They won't have a feeling that is 6 months to fly HAC or 1,5 year to fly titan. I don't really care about RPG side right now, most of player base don't give a **** about lore in this game. Leveling character is too slow to stay in game, and charge it to train faster won't solve it, as many examples here only make this game even worse.
maybe, but allowing one 1 day char to fly a titan isn't that good, really; you say eve training system is very bad, while i say, some time ago, it was the best training system around: no need to grind daily to lvl up; no need to login daily so you keep up with your buddies; you had some rl stuff? you set a long skill and go do your rl life, come back to eve when you had time; now? now it has to evolve, and this new thing is a bit better that the old one. is eve ready for a total removing of skills, or will this be a good thing for the game? don't think so so between those options, "old system"," new system" and some hypothetical "removing of skill system", i chose what's on the table for now, since i consider that today, this new system will be better that the old one; |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:42:46 -
[4077] - Quote
gascanu wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:gascanu wrote:given the 2 options, invest a large amount of money and buy some 50 mil sp char, or investing a modest amount and buy some 1-2 mil sps to fly your hac/t3 well, which one you consider better? None. EvE is based on RPG training system. Very old one and after decade it shows how bad it is. It's better to give players an option to fly what they want even if they will be doing it worse than 100 mil charater. They won't have a feeling that is 6 months to fly HAC or 1,5 year to fly titan. I don't really care about RPG side right now, most of player base don't give a **** about lore in this game. Leveling character is too slow to stay in game, and charge it to train faster won't solve it, as many examples here only make this game even worse. maybe, but allowing one 1 day char to fly a titan isn't that good, really; you say eve training system is very bad, while i say, some time ago, it was the best training system around: no need to grind daily to lvl up; no need to login daily so you keep up with your buddies; you had some rl stuff? you set a long skill and go do your rl life, come back to eve when you had time; now? now it has to evolve, and this new thing is a bit better that the old one. is eve ready for a total removing of skills, or will this be a good thing for the game? don't think so so between those options, "old system"," new system" and some hypothetical "removing of skill system", i chose what's on the table for now, since i consider that today, this new system will be better that the old one; A game without a reason to log in is barely a game worth a subscription.
Ignoring the possibility that this could barely effect subs is pretty non-helpful.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
knowsitall
Adeptus iNdustry and Logistics Silent Eviction
36
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:42:48 -
[4078] - Quote
While i agree with the "problems" of the character bazaar.
Better if people could change names, remove employment history, even reset all standing......
There has always been the thing about, you can do what you want in Eve but there is CONSEQUENCES.
This to me goes against this. Consequences don't exist in a world of REDOs. this is not a one player game, this is a PERSISTENT world, there is no save and load, when you do something it is part of the history Eve, no matter how small.
Above being said this is still a game and not real live. No redos in real live, but there are second chances.
Allowing people to change name, restart employment history, and even reset standings can all be lored away as bribery or neural behavior correction (Clockwork Orange style).
So to fix the issues in the Dev Blog said i say No to SP for Aurum regardless of the source, even at a bad exchange rate. To me just benefits ISK rich vets, allowing them to respec to the any new meta for the cost of a X number of isk. This is making the mistake Titans were before the changes that they are so expensive that that is barrier to entry. ISK cost is never a barrier to entry, as a vet myself i basically don't grind isk anymore. Why don't i grind isk, because i have ENOUGH. If i suddenly have a reason to have lots more isk i will just grind that isk, at a much better isk/hr rate than a newer player.
Back to a proposed solution of change names, remove employment history, faction standing i really don't think matter (especially since the scrapping of standing for high sec anchoring 0 which i agreed with). So you could have a Neural correction entry then everything below that is in a folder that opens up if people really want to dig down, but it shows that PLEX/Aurum was paid to change this. Even security status hardly matter now you can buy it for Tags.
KIA |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:53:15 -
[4079] - Quote
Dror wrote: A game without a reason to log in is barely a game worth a subscription.
Good point |
Norian Lonark
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
153
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:54:20 -
[4080] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote: None. EvE is based on RPG training system. Very old one and after decade it shows how bad it is. It's better to give players an option to fly what they want even if they will be doing it worse than 100 mil charater. They won't have a feeling that is 6 months to fly HAC or 1,5 year to fly titan. I don't really care about RPG side right now, most of player base don't give a **** about lore in this game. Leveling character is too slow to stay in game, and charge it to train faster won't solve it, as many examples here only make this game even worse.
This post in a paragraph sums up where this will end up going just get rid of skill points all together so everyone can do everything get in that ship lets buy our level 90 wizards. Seems that everytime there is a unique game which has some success the developer wants to grow it (obviously)and in trying to attract that new player base loses sight of what made the game have its success in the first place.
What people enjoyed about playing the game is changed overtime chasing the carrot of new players and expansion and eventually turning it into something so far removed from the original concept that the people who actually played and stuck with the game are pushed out. This seems to happen with every MMO I have ever played.
For me the worry isnt really about this change (though I really dont like it and dont understand why its needed) but the direction its taking us in terms of development and setting precedent for future changes. It seems that this whole concept is that eve is no fun to play if you dont have all the skills you want when you want... so where does the progression of this way of thinking take us?
I quite enjoy the RPG aspect of a supposid MMORPG
Start wide, expand further, and never look back
|
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2206
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:58:37 -
[4081] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:afkalt wrote:Kaivar Lancer wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Actually I hate the idea of new players being expected (since that's what it'll become) to pay lots more RL money to just start playing the game. New players will not benefit from this change unless they invest a big chunk of cash. I really do hate that idea.
What do you mean? I've met quite a few newbies who hated Eve because you couldn't do anything to actively speed up SP and catch up with vets. If SP was buyable, newbies could actively "speed up" their SP by earning ISK and converting it into SP. This option accommodates more playing styles. And of course, newbies are competing on isk levels with the likes of me, farming WH's, right? I mean it's not like vets have hilarious levels of isk to spit out perfect alts on demand to a shifting meta. Nah that will NEVER happen I mean sure it'll be expensive (so that clearly helps newbies) and that totally blocked super proliferation, too, right? Isn't that always the case? CCP implements something that might work... if not for the 12 years of entrenched wealth that makes their efforts futile.
Even with out "old money" It's so easy to make isk now (going to be made even worse by this CONCORD tribute system idea), that any thought of something being balanced by cost is ridiculous.
Often but not always. This is just a dream proposition for the old guard.
The newbro catching up argument is a classic piece of trash - like my millions of SP in capitals matter a goddamn when I'm brawling in a cruiser. Or that ice mining rank when I was new. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
264
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:59:07 -
[4082] - Quote
Vahligmarr wrote:gascanu wrote:Vahligmarr wrote:This makes the whole idea even more terrifying..... no matter what you call it....it smells like PtoW, and this message will be spread..... ... so, the fact that more ppl will be able to use it is bad? i really don't get you ppl: the only honest answer i can think of is hypocrisy: "i suffered thru those months and months of training so everyone else must suffer also" ... the fact is, once you get some time to think, eve need this; if we want to have a game to play in the next few years, this among others things that CCP must do, will help the game to survive; ... and the most important thing :is this a better option for the new player over the character bazar? yes it is. As somebody else already stated, this speed training will become a necessity not an option... like the learning skills were... CCP removed them, because they added nothing to the game, now they plan to put something similar back in, with the difference, they can charge for it. Learning Skills for Real Money if you like..... And to be honest, have you ever had a better gaming experience, just by shortpassing things, like buying XPs, Gold, Levels or what ever. Playing a game for a long long time, to reach a goal, far ahead, rewards me.... i am not suffering on the way, i gather expierence.... Right now, we are buying SP already, with subscription time, but only a certain amount per month is possible. Everyone was limited by this rule, rich, poor, veteran, newbie, caldari, gallente, and so on....., in future, if this idea comes true, you can have as much SP as you want, with real money as the only limiting factor. You are able to buy, ISK (gold) + SP (xp or character levels) in an MMORPG with Real Money... that is true pay to win if you ask me...
did you even read my post? i have news for you: right now, my friend, you can buy isk(gold)+SP(SP or caracter lvls)in this MMORPG called EVE ONLINE; you've been playing a how you call it "pay to win" game all this time ever heard of plex and caracter bazar? that's right, is that place where you go with money and buy ISK(GOLD) and wx or caracter lvls, like ALLOT of caracter lvls oh and CCP was/is charging for it to be honest this is not pay to win, it's more pay to catch up; and i have no problem with new players catching up at all; the fact that with this new system more ppl will be able to do it is a GOOD thing;
Quote: Playing a game for a long long time, to reach a goal, far ahead, rewards me... exactlly : playing a game not waiting 35 days till your skill lvs up;
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12757
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 14:12:01 -
[4083] - Quote
Norian Lonark wrote: Seems that everytime there is a unique game which has some success the developer wants to grow it (obviously)and in trying to attract that new player base loses sight of what made the game have its success in the first place.
Can't like this enough.
So many business go wrong here, but especially game makers because gamers are the most fickle people in the history of people. Developers think that 'making things easier to get in to' is the way to go, not understanding the idea that gamers have preferences that aren't influenced by such considerations. For people who want to play a game like EVE, there is no such thing as a 'barrier to entry'. For people for whom EVE will never be their cup of tea, there is no access point low/easy enough to make them play.
Which is why the smart money is then on concentrating expansion effort of the kind of people who would like your product rather than those who won't no matter what. CCp has been trying to sell steak to vegans for a good 9-10 years now, with the results you'd expect.
Quote:What people enjoyed about playing the game is changed overtime chasing the carrot of new players and expansion and eventually turning it into something so far removed from the original concept that the people who actually played and stuck with the game are pushed out. This seems to happen with every MMO I have ever played. For me the worry isnt really about this change (though I really dont like it and dont understand why its needed) but the direction its taking us in terms of development and setting precedent for future changes. It seems that this whole concept is that eve is no fun to play if you dont have all the skills you want when you want... so where does the progression of this way of thinking take us? I quite enjoy the RPG aspect of a supposid MMORPG
I do too. Some think we are a dying breed, but i saw a kid who couldn't be more than 12 reading a comic book yesterday, with no iphone/pad/notebook/laptop in sight. I should have snapped a picture. It means some of us are still being born lol.
|
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
265
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 14:13:03 -
[4084] - Quote
Norian Lonark wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote: None. EvE is based on RPG training system. Very old one and after decade it shows how bad it is. It's better to give players an option to fly what they want even if they will be doing it worse than 100 mil charater. They won't have a feeling that is 6 months to fly HAC or 1,5 year to fly titan. I don't really care about RPG side right now, most of player base don't give a **** about lore in this game. Leveling character is too slow to stay in game, and charge it to train faster won't solve it, as many examples here only make this game even worse.
This post in a paragraph sums up where this will end up going just get rid of skill points all together so everyone can do everything get in that ship lets buy our level 90 wizards. Seems that everytime there is a unique game which has some success the developer wants to grow it (obviously)and in trying to attract that new player base loses sight of what made the game have its success in the first place. What people enjoyed about playing the game is changed overtime chasing the carrot of new players and expansion and eventually turning it into something so far removed from the original concept that the people who actually played and stuck with the game are pushed out. This seems to happen with every MMO I have ever played. For me the worry isnt really about this change (though I really dont like it and dont understand why its needed) but the direction its taking us in terms of development and setting precedent for future changes. It seems that this whole concept is that eve is no fun to play if you dont have all the skills you want when you want... so where does the progression of this way of thinking take us? I quite enjoy the RPG aspect of a supposid MMORPG you ignoring the fact that when most of us started, cruiser/bc/bs/whaterver lvl 5 was not a requirement to join a basic alliance op; yes the game evolved, and we evolved with it; while we spent those months training all those ships, it was done in years, and we had fun doing so; when i started i was joining in a t1 fitted tempest and no one was telling me to just dock up; the fact is that, back in the day you could join main fleets allot faster, and there where 2-3 main doctrines; now? oh you need to train 3 months to get that tengu lvl 5; 3 months later-OH CRAP CCP just nerfed tengus, you need to train to proteus, so good luck with training 3 more months and so on; this is just one ex, i know you can have fun in some smaller ships, but there is a point where flying a t1 frig all the time waiting to skiil up just isn't fun anymore
|
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
266
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 14:22:12 -
[4085] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Norian Lonark wrote: Seems that everytime there is a unique game which has some success the developer wants to grow it (obviously)and in trying to attract that new player base loses sight of what made the game have its success in the first place. Can't like this enough. So many business go wrong here, but especially game makers because gamers are the most fickle people in the history of people. Developers think that 'making things easier to get in to' is the way to go, not understanding the idea that gamers have preferences that aren't influenced by such considerations. For people who want to play a game like EVE, there is no such thing as a 'barrier to entry'. For people for whom EVE will never be their cup of tea, there is no access point low/easy enough to make them play. Which is why the smart money is then on concentrating expansion effort of the kind of people who would like your product rather than those who won't no matter what. CCp has been trying to sell steak to vegans for a good 9-10 years now, with the results you'd expect. this may have been right one year ago, when eve had a steady player base; right now?right now, doing that will just mean a slow death; the fact is eve is going down in sub/player numbers, and even happy veterans won't be here forever; they need to do something to get new blood into the game, and this, if implemented right could be one of those things |
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 14:23:50 -
[4086] - Quote
gascanu wrote:
you ignoring the fact that when most of us started, cruiser/bc/bs/whaterver lvl 5 was not a requirement to join a basic alliance op; yes the game evolved, and we evolved with it; while we spent those months training all those ships, it was done in years, and we had fun doing so; when i started i was joining in a t1 fitted tempest and no one was telling me to just dock up; the fact is that, back in the day you could join main fleets allot faster, and there where 2-3 main doctrines; now? oh you need to train 3 months to get that tengu lvl 5; 3 months later-OH CRAP CCP just nerfed tengus, you need to train to proteus, so good luck with training 3 more months and so on; this is just one ex, i know you can have fun in some smaller ships, but there is a point where flying a t1 frig all the time waiting to skiil up just isn't fun anymore
I agree with what you are saying about doctrines and the bar being raised over the years, I just don't get how buying SPs is supposed to help newbros who can't afford to buy them, if they spend their time grinding isk to buy the skills, will they have enough time to grind the isk for the ships ? Will this just herd them all into large nullsec entities with SRPs ?
It seems that a lot of people get left out with this idea. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 14:28:53 -
[4087] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: i saw a kid who couldn't be more than 12 reading a comic book yesterday, with no iphone/pad/notebook/laptop in sight
No need to get personal. It's rude. |
Dave Stark
7622
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 14:29:24 -
[4088] - Quote
Norian Lonark wrote:FCs will just force players to go and buy sps
nobody can force anyone to do anything.
an FC knows that people aren't going to go and buy SP because he said so. FCs who think that'll be the case will end up with 5 dudes and have no fleet. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
266
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 14:34:41 -
[4089] - Quote
ColdBeauty wrote:gascanu wrote:
you ignoring the fact that when most of us started, cruiser/bc/bs/whaterver lvl 5 was not a requirement to join a basic alliance op; yes the game evolved, and we evolved with it; while we spent those months training all those ships, it was done in years, and we had fun doing so; when i started i was joining in a t1 fitted tempest and no one was telling me to just dock up; the fact is that, back in the day you could join main fleets allot faster, and there where 2-3 main doctrines; now? oh you need to train 3 months to get that tengu lvl 5; 3 months later-OH CRAP CCP just nerfed tengus, you need to train to proteus, so good luck with training 3 more months and so on; this is just one ex, i know you can have fun in some smaller ships, but there is a point where flying a t1 frig all the time waiting to skiil up just isn't fun anymore
I agree with what you are saying about doctrines and the bar being raised over the years, I just don't get how buying SPs is supposed to help newbros who can't afford to buy them, if they spend their time grinding isk to buy the skills, will they have enough time to grind the isk for the ships ? Will this just herd them all into large nullsec entities with SRPs ? It seems that a lot of people get left out with this idea.
herding them all to nullsec entities with srp is much better than herding them out of the game; and that is a mart thing to do, for a new player, instead of just playing solo mission running in high sec; you want to stay "safe"? play in empire solo, but train at normal speed; you want to advance at a faster speed? join a player corporation, be it nul sec/low sec/incursion that can help you make isk>advance faster, and that will be a win-win situation:good corps get more active players, new players get to train a bit faster, and reach that "confort" zone
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
58
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 14:35:56 -
[4090] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:Vahligmarr wrote:gascanu wrote:Vahligmarr wrote:This makes the whole idea even more terrifying..... no matter what you call it....it smells like PtoW, and this message will be spread..... ... so, the fact that more ppl will be able to use it is bad? i really don't get you ppl: the only honest answer i can think of is hypocrisy: "i suffered thru those months and months of training so everyone else must suffer also" ... the fact is, once you get some time to think, eve need this; if we want to have a game to play in the next few years, this among others things that CCP must do, will help the game to survive; ... and the most important thing :is this a better option for the new player over the character bazar? yes it is. As somebody else already stated, this speed training will become a necessity not an option... like the learning skills were... CCP removed them, because they added nothing to the game, now they plan to put something similar back in, with the difference, they can charge for it. Learning Skills for Real Money if you like..... And to be honest, have you ever had a better gaming experience, just by shortpassing things, like buying XPs, Gold, Levels or what ever. Playing a game for a long long time, to reach a goal, far ahead, rewards me.... i am not suffering on the way, i gather expierence.... Right now, we are buying SP already, with subscription time, but only a certain amount per month is possible. Everyone was limited by this rule, rich, poor, veteran, newbie, caldari, gallente, and so on....., in future, if this idea comes true, you can have as much SP as you want, with real money as the only limiting factor. You are able to buy, ISK (gold) + SP (xp or character levels) in an MMORPG with Real Money... that is true pay to win if you ask me... Ah there is that phrase again. Pay to Win. At best it's Pay to Access. Skill points don't provide victory, they provide access to specific micro-portions of game content (such as ships and modules) and by extension greater content beyond as a consequence.
In any game that has no ending no big bad beastie to slay to say i win then one could take it that you set yourself a certain target to attain. I'll be happy when i can finally get my ass into that blackops / shield maxed / missiles sorted / engineering done EW sorted / taken me 14 months but ive done it. Instaspawn - 10 minutes - same goal - Pay2Win |
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ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 14:42:22 -
[4091] - Quote
gascanu wrote:
herding them all to nullsec entities with srp is much better than herding them out of the game; and that is a mart thing to do, for a new player, instead of just playing solo mission running in high sec; you want to stay "safe"? play in empire solo, but train at normal speed; you want to advance at a faster speed? join a player corporation, be it nul sec/low sec/incursion that can help you make isk>advance faster, and that will be a win-win situation:good corps get more active players, new players get to train a bit faster, and reach that "confort" zone
So basically you are saying "let goons win or the game dies"
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 14:46:47 -
[4092] - Quote
Norian Lonark wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote: None. EvE is based on RPG training system. Very old one and after decade it shows how bad it is. It's better to give players an option to fly what they want even if they will be doing it worse than 100 mil charater. They won't have a feeling that is 6 months to fly HAC or 1,5 year to fly titan. I don't really care about RPG side right now, most of player base don't give a **** about lore in this game. Leveling character is too slow to stay in game, and charge it to train faster won't solve it, as many examples here only make this game even worse.
This post in a paragraph sums up where this will end up going just get rid of skill points all together so everyone can do everything get in that ship lets buy our level 90 wizards. Seems that everytime there is a unique game which has some success the developer wants to grow it (obviously)and in trying to attract that new player base loses sight of what made the game have its success in the first place. What people enjoyed about playing the game is changed overtime chasing the carrot of new players and expansion and eventually turning it into something so far removed from the original concept that the people who actually played and stuck with the game are pushed out. This seems to happen with every MMO I have ever played. For me the worry isnt really about this change (though I really dont like it and dont understand why its needed) but the direction its taking us in terms of development and setting precedent for future changes. It seems that this whole concept is that eve is no fun to play if you dont have all the skills you want when you want... so where does the progression of this way of thinking take us? I quite enjoy the RPG aspect of a supposid MMORPG and
Jenn aSide wrote:Can't like this enough. So many business go wrong here, but especially game makers because gamers are the most fickle people in the history of people. Developers think that 'making things easier to get in to' is the way to go, not understanding the idea that gamers have preferences that aren't influenced by such considerations. For people who want to play a game like EVE, there is no such thing as a 'barrier to entry'. For people for whom EVE will never be their cup of tea, there is no access point low/easy enough to make them play. Which is why the smart money is then on concentrating expansion effort of the kind of people who would like your product rather than those who won't no matter what. CCp has been trying to sell steak to vegans for a good 9-10 years now, with the results you'd expect. Quote:What people enjoyed about playing the game is changed overtime chasing the carrot of new players and expansion and eventually turning it into something so far removed from the original concept that the people who actually played and stuck with the game are pushed out. This seems to happen with every MMO I have ever played. For me the worry isnt really about this change (though I really dont like it and dont understand why its needed) but the direction its taking us in terms of development and setting precedent for future changes. It seems that this whole concept is that eve is no fun to play if you dont have all the skills you want when you want... so where does the progression of this way of thinking take us? I quite enjoy the RPG aspect of a supposid MMORPG I do too. Some think we are a dying breed, but i saw a kid who couldn't be more than 12 reading a comic book yesterday, with no iphone/pad/notebook/laptop in sight. I should have snapped a picture. It means some of us are still being born lol. ..It seems you're forgetting that the PCU is in a huge negative trend. Something is the problem -- "If you would say it's a people problem, prove it. Prove that motivation isn't some inherent process that game design has to submit to. Prove that undermining player skillfulness is motivating, instead of its alternative of allowing progression and mastery." There's no apparent evidence that games are niche because of demographics.
"There's no such thing as a barrier to entry"? So, you're saying that just because the game is claimed as a sandbox game, it should simply get the subscriptions of all those interested in deep play -- even if they have no access to all that?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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gascanu
Bearing Srl.
266
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 14:47:25 -
[4093] - Quote
Norian Lonark wrote:gascanu wrote: you ignoring the fact that when most of us started, cruiser/bc/bs/whaterver lvl 5 was not a requirement to join a basic alliance op; yes the game evolved, and we evolved with it; while we spent those months training all those ships, it was done in years, and we had fun doing so; when i started i was joining in a t1 fitted tempest and no one was telling me to just dock up; the fact is that, back in the day you could join main fleets allot faster, and there where 2-3 main doctrines; now? oh you need to train 3 months to get that tengu lvl 5; 3 months later-OH CRAP CCP just nerfed tengus, you need to train to proteus, so good luck with training 3 more months and so on; this is just one ex, i know you can have fun in some smaller ships, but there is a point where flying a t1 frig all the time waiting to skiil up just isn't fun anymore
Doesnt it make it worse? If your saying it solves the problem of getting into different doctrines, now we are saying that big alliance FCs will just force players to go and buy sps for whichever fit is popular that month and because it would now be possible to just get the SPs there would need to be less consideration for doing so. Personally I dont think this is something which is going to help retain players sounds like it would be just as frustrating players wont have a choice at all to actually play the game and enjoy it. About getting to A - Z as fast as possible and not actually enjoying playing the game...
if ppl go buy sps because "it's an fc order" then they deserve that fc; more to the reall facts, in any 'real" alliance, doctrine changes don't happen over night. usually alliance member get a head up of at least a week to prepare for a doctrine change; also, once you reach a certain amount of sps, there is basically no doctrine that you can't get in like on the spot; even if you don't have that "gallente deffensive system lvl 5", you will be close to it, and can do a logi for a few days till you get it, for ex;
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Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
62
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 14:47:39 -
[4094] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Rawthorm wrote:
Ah there is that phrase again. Pay to Win. At best it's Pay to Access. Skill points don't provide victory, they provide access to specific micro-portions of game content (such as ships and modules) and by extension greater content beyond as a consequence.
In any game that has no ending no big bad beastie to slay to say i win then one could take it that you set yourself a certain target to attain. I'll be happy when i can finally get my ass into that blackops / shield maxed / missiles sorted / engineering done EW sorted / taken me 14 months but ive done it. Instaspawn - 10 minutes - same goal - Pay2Win
A fair point and I used to think this way until I realized that goals centred around a mechanic I can barely influence were not really goals at all. Working flat out to cobble together the resources for the games first Nyx before any of the alliances of the time could get around to build one, that was a goal and one that I felt immense pride for accomplishing.
Watching a clock tick down to say I could finally sit in said Nyx on the other hand, while satisfying when that day came hardly triggered a sense accomplishment in me. I didn't earn it beyond sticking my 10 bucks a month into the game and watching the timer count down so why should I feel any pride in that? If I could have worked my ass off for the ISK to then inject the SP necessary at the time I think I'd have felt like I'd earned those skills a lot more. |
Dave Stark
7622
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 14:48:46 -
[4095] - Quote
Dror wrote:It seems you're forgetting that the PCU is in a huge negative trend.
over the last few months it has been fairly constant with no growth or decline, since about july time. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
266
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 14:53:21 -
[4096] - Quote
ColdBeauty wrote:gascanu wrote:
herding them all to nullsec entities with srp is much better than herding them out of the game; and that is a mart thing to do, for a new player, instead of just playing solo mission running in high sec; you want to stay "safe"? play in empire solo, but train at normal speed; you want to advance at a faster speed? join a player corporation, be it nul sec/low sec/incursion that can help you make isk>advance faster, and that will be a win-win situation:good corps get more active players, new players get to train a bit faster, and reach that "confort" zone
So basically you are saying "let goons win or the game dies" where did i say that? you realize there are more alliances in null that just goons, right? all i sayd was that good corps get more active new ppl,i never said goons are the best corps; yes they are very good, but there are llot more very good new friendly oriented corporations |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
58
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 14:57:20 -
[4097] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Rawthorm wrote:
Ah there is that phrase again. Pay to Win. At best it's Pay to Access. Skill points don't provide victory, they provide access to specific micro-portions of game content (such as ships and modules) and by extension greater content beyond as a consequence.
In any game that has no ending no big bad beastie to slay to say i win then one could take it that you set yourself a certain target to attain. I'll be happy when i can finally get my ass into that blackops / shield maxed / missiles sorted / engineering done EW sorted / taken me 14 months but ive done it. Instaspawn - 10 minutes - same goal - Pay2Win A fair point and I used to think this way until I realized that goals centred around a mechanic I can barely influence were not really goals at all. Working flat out to cobble together the resources for the games first Nyx before any of the alliances of the time could get around to build one, that was a goal and one that I felt immense pride for accomplishing. Watching a clock tick down to say I could finally sit in said Nyx on the other hand, while satisfying when that day came hardly triggered a sense accomplishment in me. I didn't earn it beyond sticking my 10 bucks a month into the game and watching the timer count down so why should I feel any pride in that? If I could have worked my ass off for the ISK to then inject the SP necessary at the time I think I'd have felt like I'd earned those skills a lot more.
I understand what your saying also but most of the sheep now in this thread seem to think whilst your setting a goal there is nothing else todo until you hit your achievement point. Were you not working you ass of in other parts of the game to get isk, protecting a station, even running missions to keep yourself occupied. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 15:01:26 -
[4098] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Dror wrote:It seems you're forgetting that the PCU is in a huge negative trend. over the last few months it has been fairly constant with no growth or decline, since about july time. Did ya catch the fresh characters chart? The decent influx would imply that it's still volatile on some level.
There are 18M+ fresh internet users every month, with over 900M in the PC gaming demographic.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 15:18:24 -
[4099] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Rawthorm wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Rawthorm wrote:
Ah there is that phrase again. Pay to Win. At best it's Pay to Access. Skill points don't provide victory, they provide access to specific micro-portions of game content (such as ships and modules) and by extension greater content beyond as a consequence.
In any game that has no ending no big bad beastie to slay to say i win then one could take it that you set yourself a certain target to attain. I'll be happy when i can finally get my ass into that blackops / shield maxed / missiles sorted / engineering done EW sorted / taken me 14 months but ive done it. Instaspawn - 10 minutes - same goal - Pay2Win A fair point and I used to think this way until I realized that goals centred around a mechanic I can barely influence were not really goals at all. Working flat out to cobble together the resources for the games first Nyx before any of the alliances of the time could get around to build one, that was a goal and one that I felt immense pride for accomplishing. Watching a clock tick down to say I could finally sit in said Nyx on the other hand, while satisfying when that day came hardly triggered a sense accomplishment in me. I didn't earn it beyond sticking my 10 bucks a month into the game and watching the timer count down so why should I feel any pride in that? If I could have worked my ass off for the ISK to then inject the SP necessary at the time I think I'd have felt like I'd earned those skills a lot more. I understand what your saying also but most of the sheep now in this thread seem to think whilst your setting a goal there is nothing else todo until you hit your achievement point. Were you not working you ass of in other parts of the game to get isk, protecting a station, even running missions to keep yourself occupied. When goal setuped other things just doesn't matter anymore. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
58
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 15:25:53 -
[4100] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Rawthorm wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Rawthorm wrote:
Ah there is that phrase again. Pay to Win. At best it's Pay to Access. Skill points don't provide victory, they provide access to specific micro-portions of game content (such as ships and modules) and by extension greater content beyond as a consequence.
In any game that has no ending no big bad beastie to slay to say i win then one could take it that you set yourself a certain target to attain. I'll be happy when i can finally get my ass into that blackops / shield maxed / missiles sorted / engineering done EW sorted / taken me 14 months but ive done it. Instaspawn - 10 minutes - same goal - Pay2Win A fair point and I used to think this way until I realized that goals centred around a mechanic I can barely influence were not really goals at all. Working flat out to cobble together the resources for the games first Nyx before any of the alliances of the time could get around to build one, that was a goal and one that I felt immense pride for accomplishing. Watching a clock tick down to say I could finally sit in said Nyx on the other hand, while satisfying when that day came hardly triggered a sense accomplishment in me. I didn't earn it beyond sticking my 10 bucks a month into the game and watching the timer count down so why should I feel any pride in that? If I could have worked my ass off for the ISK to then inject the SP necessary at the time I think I'd have felt like I'd earned those skills a lot more. I understand what your saying also but most of the sheep now in this thread seem to think whilst your setting a goal there is nothing else todo until you hit your achievement point. Were you not working you ass of in other parts of the game to get isk, protecting a station, even running missions to keep yourself occupied. When goal setuped other things just doesn't matter anymore.
Its comments like that which make the for's challenges harder and i dont see why you would even want to play a game like eve or anyone be associated with anyone who thinks in that way. Your saying i want to be in my blops ..... right not playing now not worth my time. So in theory your saying eve is utter shite until i get what i want - by definition instant gratification without work. |
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 15:31:21 -
[4101] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote: When goal setuped other things just doesn't matter anymore.
Its comments like that which make the for's challenges harder and i dont see why you would even want to play a game like eve or anyone be associated with anyone who thinks in that way. Your saying i want to be in my blops ..... right not playing now not worth my time. So in theory your saying eve is utter shite until i get what i want - by definition instant gratification without work. That's sorta a main problem with extrinsic rewards like SP.
https://youtu.be/sbHqFgn4SOw?t=10m42s
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
448
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 15:32:48 -
[4102] - Quote
gascanu wrote:maybe, but allowing one 1 day char to fly a titan isn't that good, really; Why? They pay subsricption, if can afford to plex one I don't see the problem. It will be possible with paying for SP (expensive but still) it all about the money after all. Not my not yours but someone who's willing to pay. Why he can't?
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1181
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 15:39:40 -
[4103] - Quote
Waited a bit before bothering to look, can't see any issues with it and like the approach as you have to look at keeping the players who are around 6 months to a year old and I think this will help.
Perhaps you could do a special one on Super and Titan skills that give more of the SP back to older toons?
So all in all I think its a perfectly acceptable idea, next...
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically a themepark for gankers
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 15:41:27 -
[4104] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:[ So in theory your saying eve is utter shite until i get what i want - by definition instant gratification without work. actually I many times said #1#2#3#4 I rather do some stuff in-game to earn isks to buy SP injector than wating until skills are trained. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
250
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 15:48:12 -
[4105] - Quote
knowsitall wrote:While i agree with the "problems" of the character bazaar.
Better if people could change names, remove employment history, even reset all standing......
There has always been the thing about, you can do what you want in Eve but there is CONSEQUENCES.
This to me goes against this. Consequences don't exist in a world of REDOs. this is not a one player game, this is a PERSISTENT world, there is no save and load, when you do something it is part of the history Eve, no matter how small.
Above being said this is still a game and not real live. No redos in real live, but there are second chances.
Allowing people to change name, restart employment history, and even reset standings can all be lored away as bribery or neural behavior correction (Clockwork Orange style).
So to fix the issues in the Dev Blog said i say No to SP for Aurum regardless of the source, even at a bad exchange rate. To me just benefits ISK rich vets, allowing them to respec to the any new meta for the cost of a X number of isk. This is making the mistake Titans were before the changes that they are so expensive that that is barrier to entry. ISK cost is never a barrier to entry, as a vet myself i basically don't grind isk anymore. Why don't i grind isk, because i have ENOUGH. If i suddenly have a reason to have lots more isk i will just grind that isk, at a much better isk/hr rate than a newer player.
Back to a proposed solution of change names, remove employment history, faction standing i really don't think matter (especially since the scrapping of standing for high sec anchoring 0 which i agreed with). So you could have a Neural correction entry then everything below that is in a folder that opens up if people really want to dig down, but it shows that PLEX/Aurum was paid to change this. Even security status hardly matter now you can buy it for Tags.
This is something I had also suggested instead. I have always thought it would fit in well with a sci fi world full of clones and high tech biological procedures that for the right price you could remove or alter these details. You can change your face and appearance and even transfer conciousness to another body, but that you can't change your name seems a little silly.
Yes it could be exploitable but much less so than this current proposal, and also it should come at a cost which would reduce exploitation. I'd suggest that cost is 25% reduction in total SP for that character.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
250
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 15:50:01 -
[4106] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Waited a bit before bothering to look, can't see any issues You know as well as I do Drac that this will be exploited to hell by goons and PL and won't be to the benefit of new players.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 15:58:16 -
[4107] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote: When goal setuped other things just doesn't matter anymore.
Its comments like that which make the for's challenges harder and i dont see why you would even want to play a game like eve or anyone be associated with anyone who thinks in that way. Your saying i want to be in my blops ..... right not playing now not worth my time. So in theory your saying eve is utter shite until i get what i want - by definition instant gratification without work. That's sorta a main problem with extrinsic rewards like SP. https://youtu.be/sbHqFgn4SOw?t=10m42s
My rewards are the things i Kill, the things i build, The challenges i overcome i have never viewed the skill mechanic as a reward but the means to get where i am now. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 15:59:53 -
[4108] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:So in theory your saying eve is utter shite until i get what i want - by definition instant gratification without work. Actually I many times said #1#2#3#4I rather do some stuff in-game to earn isks to buy SP injector than wating until skills are trained. Now I'm realise why Dave had forced to reapeat himselve and why he have so many posts.
Your just like daves parrot ive not even seen you come up with anything original to support what daves said. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
448
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 16:02:26 -
[4109] - Quote
Motivation?
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 16:05:05 -
[4110] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:So in theory your saying eve is utter shite until i get what i want - by definition instant gratification without work. Actually I many times said #1#2#3#4I rather do some stuff in-game to earn isks to buy SP injector than wating until skills are trained. Now I'm realise why Dave had forced to reapeat himselve and why he have so many posts. Your just like daves parrot ive not even seen you come up with anything original to support what daves said. Don't let agnger speaking for you. Cool down =) |
|
killallnerds exe
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 16:05:37 -
[4111] - Quote
I was really hoping http://www.evecharactersearch.com/ would get a shout out in this dev blog but... senpai did not notice me ;_; |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 16:11:20 -
[4112] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:So in theory your saying eve is utter shite until i get what i want - by definition instant gratification without work. Actually I many times said #1#2#3#4I rather do some stuff in-game to earn isks to buy SP injector than wating until skills are trained. Now I'm realise why Dave had forced to reapeat himselve and why he have so many posts. Your just like daves parrot ive not even seen you come up with anything original to support what daves said. Don't let agnger speaking for you. Cool down =)
Its not anger here, there would be alot more * than visible if anger spoke. If anything i feel the same way when WoW sold out and went down the shitter of you can achieve anything you want as long as you stick your hand in your pocket and pay for it. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 16:21:32 -
[4113] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:So in theory your saying eve is utter shite until i get what i want - by definition instant gratification without work. Actually I many times said #1#2#3#4I rather do some stuff in-game to earn isks to buy SP injector than wating until skills are trained. Now I'm realise why Dave had forced to reapeat himselve and why he have so many posts. Your just like daves parrot ive not even seen you come up with anything original to support what daves said. Don't let agnger speaking for you. Cool down =) Its not anger here, there would be alot more * than visible if anger spoke. If anything i feel the same way when WoW sold out and went down the shitter of you can achieve anything you want as long as you stick your hand in your pocket and pay for it. Now you really get it personal. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1182
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 16:27:21 -
[4114] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Waited a bit before bothering to look, can't see any issues You know as well as I do Drac that this will be exploited to hell by goons and PL and won't be to the benefit of new players.
Everything will get exploited by people like Goons and PL, its their nature. It will certainly make assessing threat levels by past killboard history a bit hit and miss which will make it easier for them, but still I see the 6 month to 2 year old players as the most likely to quit, so this may help...
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically a themepark for gankers
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 16:27:36 -
[4115] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote: When goal setuped other things just doesn't matter anymore.
Its comments like that which make the for's challenges harder and i dont see why you would even want to play a game like eve or anyone be associated with anyone who thinks in that way. Your saying i want to be in my blops ..... right not playing now not worth my time. So in theory your saying eve is utter shite until i get what i want - by definition instant gratification without work. That's sorta a main problem with extrinsic rewards like SP. https://youtu.be/sbHqFgn4SOw?t=10m42s I'm owner of copys Don't Starve and Don't Starve Together. Awesome games. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
250
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 16:35:43 -
[4116] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Waited a bit before bothering to look, can't see any issues You know as well as I do Drac that this will be exploited to hell by goons and PL and won't be to the benefit of new players. Everything will get exploited by people like Goons and PL, its their nature. It will certainly make assessing threat levels by past killboard history a bit hit and miss which will make it easier for them, but still I see the 6 month to 2 year old players as the most likely to quit, so this may help... I think that is the intention but I can't see it helping them. The big money players will use this to create alts on a whim and prices will be driven above what a new player can realistically grind for.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 16:45:23 -
[4117] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:My rewards are the things i Kill, the things i build, The challenges i overcome i have never viewed the skill mechanic as a reward but the means to get where i am now. So? It still is a reward.. for subbing or for paying lots of money for a character and such. That's a huge turnoff for apparently 99% of the potential EVE market. The demographic which agrees to paying a subscription for a hugely limited amount of content in ratio of the game's potential is quite the minority. Such windowed specialization is uninteresting. There's no real interaction with the sandbox design (especially production and invention) -- the very feature list of the game. Maybe setting this out clearly makes it seem as simple as it is.
Here's a great post about why SP is barely an RPG mechanic.
How neat, this great source of commonality!
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Sjxx
Moira. Villore Accords
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 16:55:06 -
[4118] - Quote
Best change ever. I hope this is implemented soon. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2208
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 16:55:30 -
[4119] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Waited a bit before bothering to look, can't see any issues You know as well as I do Drac that this will be exploited to hell by goons and PL and won't be to the benefit of new players. Everything will get exploited by people like Goons and PL, its their nature. It will certainly make assessing threat levels by past killboard history a bit hit and miss which will make it easier for them, but still I see the 6 month to 2 year old players as the most likely to quit, so this may help... I think that is the intention alongside making loads of money for CCP, but in reality I can't see it helping them. The big money players will use this to create alts on a whim and prices will be driven above what a new player can realistically grind for.
This. Clearly they've tried to mitigate it, hence the diminishing returns. But, BUT this doesn't account for the alts.
However I cannot believe this would be an oversight, perhaps initially, but not for long. Which means either people don't care, or the income takes precedence.
I dislike either option. |
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 17:24:21 -
[4120] - Quote
gascanu wrote:Vahligmarr wrote:gascanu wrote:Vahligmarr wrote:This makes the whole idea even more terrifying..... no matter what you call it....it smells like PtoW, and this message will be spread..... ... so, the fact that more ppl will be able to use it is bad? i really don't get you ppl: the only honest answer i can think of is hypocrisy: "i suffered thru those months and months of training so everyone else must suffer also" ... the fact is, once you get some time to think, eve need this; if we want to have a game to play in the next few years, this among others things that CCP must do, will help the game to survive; ... and the most important thing :is this a better option for the new player over the character bazar? yes it is. As somebody else already stated, this speed training will become a necessity not an option... like the learning skills were... CCP removed them, because they added nothing to the game, now they plan to put something similar back in, with the difference, they can charge for it. Learning Skills for Real Money if you like..... And to be honest, have you ever had a better gaming experience, just by shortpassing things, like buying XPs, Gold, Levels or what ever. Playing a game for a long long time, to reach a goal, far ahead, rewards me.... i am not suffering on the way, i gather expierence.... Right now, we are buying SP already, with subscription time, but only a certain amount per month is possible. Everyone was limited by this rule, rich, poor, veteran, newbie, caldari, gallente, and so on....., in future, if this idea comes true, you can have as much SP as you want, with real money as the only limiting factor. You are able to buy, ISK (gold) + SP (xp or character levels) in an MMORPG with Real Money... that is true pay to win if you ask me... did you even read my post? i have news for you: right now, my friend, you can buy isk(gold)+SP(SP or caracter lvls)in this MMORPG called EVE ONLINE; you've been playing a how you call it "pay to win" game all this time ever heard of plex and caracter bazar? that's right, is that place where you go with money and buy ISK(GOLD) and wx or caracter lvls, like ALLOT of caracter lvls oh and CCP was/is charging for it to be honest this is not pay to win, it's more pay to catch up; and i have no problem with new players catching up at all; the fact that with this new system more ppl will be able to do it is a GOOD thing; Quote: Playing a game for a long long time, to reach a goal, far ahead, rewards me... exactlly : playing a game not waiting 35 days till your skill lvs up;
Hey, i have news for you. I am not your friend. And i have read your post, did you read mine?
I know there is something in the game already, which allows char transfer, i dont like it either. But there is a difference you refuse to see. If you buy a whole character, it has its name, appearance, its history, and its skills. There might be some you don't need, some others will still be missing and so on.
- buying unallocated SP to put some skills instantly on LvL V on your current Char is a lot more powerful and something completely different.
- getting new introduced skills, 10 seconds after buying the skill book on Lvl V is also a bit different...
And what about playing the game, while waiting a skill is finished, like we all did? New Chars will start with 400.000 SP, its not that they can't do anything with that.... |
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 17:25:51 -
[4121] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:So in theory your saying eve is utter shite until i get what i want - by definition instant gratification without work. Actually I many times said #1#2#3#4I rather do some stuff in-game to earn isks to buy SP injector than wating until skills are trained. Now I'm realise why Dave had forced to reapeat himselve and why he have so many posts. Your just like daves parrot ive not even seen you come up with anything original to support what daves said. Fun fact about insulting psychology
I said "reapeat himselve" You said "parrot"
Who now my parrot? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 17:31:54 -
[4122] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:My rewards are the things i Kill, the things i build, The challenges i overcome i have never viewed the skill mechanic as a reward but the means to get where i am now. So? It still is a reward.. for subbing or for paying lots of money for a character and such. That's a huge turnoff for apparently 99% of the potential EVE market. The demographic which agrees to paying a subscription for a hugely limited amount of content in ratio of the game's potential is quite the minority. Such windowed specialization is uninteresting. There's no real interaction with the sandbox design (especially production and invention) -- the very feature list of the game. Maybe setting this out clearly makes it seem as simple as it is. Here's a great post about why SP is barely an RPG mechanic. How neat, this great source of commonality!
I still cant get my head around 1 point you cant really answer at all. 1 /2 / 3/ 4 / 5 -12 years, I can see why the young characters think holy **** balls, yeah i'll pay to advance they just see shinies all the more quicker, but if its so abhorrant to the old player then why have you continued to play it,why did you continue to play after a few months and think this aint for me can't get anywhere fast and quit. what kept you wanting to play it originally thats so different now you can use alot of content |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 17:33:21 -
[4123] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:So in theory your saying eve is utter shite until i get what i want - by definition instant gratification without work. Actually I many times said #1#2#3#4I rather do some stuff in-game to earn isks to buy SP injector than wating until skills are trained. Now I'm realise why Dave had forced to reapeat himselve and why he have so many posts. Your just like daves parrot ive not even seen you come up with anything original to support what daves said. Fun fact about insulting psychology I said "reapeat himselve" You said "parrot" Who now my parrot?
always really cool when the penny drops |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
64
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 17:43:04 -
[4124] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Waited a bit before bothering to look, can't see any issues You know as well as I do Drac that this will be exploited to hell by goons and PL and won't be to the benefit of new players. Everything will get exploited by people like Goons and PL, its their nature. It will certainly make assessing threat levels by past killboard history a bit hit and miss which will make it easier for them, but still I see the 6 month to 2 year old players as the most likely to quit, so this may help... I think that is the intention alongside making loads of money for CCP, but in reality I can't see it helping them. The big money players will use this to create alts on a whim and prices will be driven above what a new player can realistically grind for. This. Clearly they've tried to mitigate it, hence the diminishing returns. But, BUT this doesn't account for the alts. However I cannot believe this would be an oversight, perhaps initially, but not for long. Which means either people don't care, or the income takes precedence. I dislike either option.
It's probably neither. Since alts are both legal and encouraged it's neither your, mine or CCP's place to try and restrict what we as players do with them and that includes the use of any new mechanics. Alt's online is what we were always going to get when you play a game that was exceptionally harsh for its time (as a way of mitigating some of the difficulty and risk.) so trying to impose arbitrary limits on them is a bit out of place and about 10 years to late. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
267
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 17:45:18 -
[4125] - Quote
Vahligmarr wrote:gascanu wrote:[
so, the fact that more ppl will be able to use it is bad? i really don't get you ppl: the only honest answer i can think of is hypocrisy: "i suffered thru those months and months of training so everyone else must suffer also"
...
...
And what about playing the game, while waiting a skill is finished, like we all did? New Chars will start with 400.000 SP, its not that they can't do anything with that....
yea, what i said...^^
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 18:07:04 -
[4126] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:My rewards are the things i Kill, the things i build, The challenges i overcome i have never viewed the skill mechanic as a reward but the means to get where i am now. So? It still is a reward.. for subbing or for paying lots of money for a character and such. That's a huge turnoff for apparently 99% of the potential EVE market. The demographic which agrees to paying a subscription for a hugely limited amount of content in ratio of the game's potential is quite the minority. Such windowed specialization is uninteresting. There's no real interaction with the sandbox design (especially production and invention) -- the very feature list of the game. Maybe setting this out clearly makes it seem as simple as it is. Here's a great post about why SP is barely an RPG mechanic. I still cant get my head around 1 point you cant really answer at all. 1 /2 / 3/ 4 / 5 -12 years, I can see why the young characters think holy **** balls, yeah i'll pay to advance they just see shinies all the more quicker, but if its so abhorrant to the old player then why have you continued to play it,why did you continue to play after a few months and think this aint for me can't get anywhere fast and quit. what kept you wanting to play it originally thats so different now you can use alot of content What, the reason that the game is played at all? ..The reason that the game had a positive PCU trend, then all of a sudden negative?
Some posts here imply that the game (originally) only having the basic, T1 ships promotes a decently balanced playing field. That makes sense, but there're also a lot more games on the market.
More games coming from crowdfunding and free game engines devalues the whole industry's base price -- especially because a lot of games are just free. There's, as well, a decent percentage of sub potential that's already invested in those crowdfunding games. That's no reason to imply that it's a huge percentage, nor that those would give little attention to a game like EVE. So, it's completely about the reception of the game per sub; and lots of information is aplenty for what develops interest. There's no game like EVE, honestly, so there must be something preventing immersion; and that must be the limitations on experiencing the game.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
129
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 18:09:50 -
[4127] - Quote
K04 78 wrote:I'd really like to know, whats CCPs actual intention behind this feature.
- Is it to simply gain more $ out of the current playerbase? ( I can totally understand that and as a player, I support that, as a broke CCP can't deliver me the game I love. But please not in this way.) - Is it to help new players? (Please do so without Pay-To-Win!) - Is it just to add new "features", because someone wants new features for the marketing charts ? - Is it just a really nice trolling to the community ?
No really: What is the idea behind it? What do you guys want to archieve with that feature? If the community knows the intention, then we maybe can help to get better ideas. I would really like it way more to help, than to just rant about how sh.. your idea is
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf
If even 50% of said is truth, I think we can understand where does the change come from. And I am not referring to the need for money, but to chaotic organisation and no clear vision.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
64
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 18:17:04 -
[4128] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:My rewards are the things i Kill, the things i build, The challenges i overcome i have never viewed the skill mechanic as a reward but the means to get where i am now. So? It still is a reward.. for subbing or for paying lots of money for a character and such. That's a huge turnoff for apparently 99% of the potential EVE market. The demographic which agrees to paying a subscription for a hugely limited amount of content in ratio of the game's potential is quite the minority. Such windowed specialization is uninteresting. There's no real interaction with the sandbox design (especially production and invention) -- the very feature list of the game. Maybe setting this out clearly makes it seem as simple as it is. Here's a great post about why SP is barely an RPG mechanic. I still cant get my head around 1 point you cant really answer at all. 1 /2 / 3/ 4 / 5 -12 years, I can see why the young characters think holy **** balls, yeah i'll pay to advance they just see shinies all the more quicker, but if its so abhorrant to the old player then why have you continued to play it,why did you continue to play after a few months and think this aint for me can't get anywhere fast and quit. what kept you wanting to play it originally thats so different now you can use alot of content What, the reason that the game is played at all? ..The reason that the game had a positive PCU trend, then all of a sudden negative? Some posts here imply that the game (originally) only having the basic, T1 ships promotes a decently balanced playing field. That makes sense, but there're also a lot more games on the market. More games coming from crowdfunding and free game engines devalues the whole industry's base price -- especially because a lot of games are just free. There's, as well, a decent percentage of sub potential that's already invested in those crowdfunding games. That's no reason to imply that it's a huge percentage, nor that those would give little attention to a game like EVE. So, it's completely about the reception of the game per sub; and lots of information is aplenty for what develops interest. There's no game like EVE, honestly, so there must be something preventing immersion; and that must be the limitations on experiencing the game.
Please dont take this the wrong way that was very informative and a good read but didnt actually say why a player would stay any length of time if a core mechanic of the game was such a problem they would continue to play for anything upto 12 years . |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4201
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 18:22:07 -
[4129] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:K04 78 wrote:I'd really like to know, whats CCPs actual intention behind this feature.
- Is it to simply gain more $ out of the current playerbase? ( I can totally understand that and as a player, I support that, as a broke CCP can't deliver me the game I love. But please not in this way.) - Is it to help new players? (Please do so without Pay-To-Win!) - Is it just to add new "features", because someone wants new features for the marketing charts ? - Is it just a really nice trolling to the community ?
No really: What is the idea behind it? What do you guys want to archieve with that feature? If the community knows the intention, then we maybe can help to get better ideas. I would really like it way more to help, than to just rant about how sh.. your idea is
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf If even 50% of said is truth, I think we can understand where does the change come from. And I am not referring to the need for money, but to chaotic organisation and no clear vision. You're right! Transsexual extractors need more PSSSSSSSHHHHH!
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
knowsitall
Adeptus iNdustry and Logistics Silent Eviction
38
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 18:26:59 -
[4130] - Quote
If this change was to happen there is a few, admittly edge cases, to consider
1) Removes the only real penality for rich player (either in or out of game) to flying a T3
2) Tournaments implications : a) Basically become mandatory to have a maxed out character for what you are planning flying. You could agree this is already available in the character bazaar, and to a degree it is, but to a very different supply profile. There are only so many perfect at flying X with fit y characters available at a given time. But with this mechanic (admittely at a cost) there is all the character available to allow me to fly x with fit y perfectly. b) As tournament and meta changes team would stockpile SP packs to ensure they could fly everything in short order to meet the meta.
KIA |
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
137
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 18:27:31 -
[4131] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Please dont take this the wrong way that was very informative and a good read but didnt actually say why a player would stay any length of time if a core mechanic of the game was such a problem they would continue to play for anything upto 12 years. The numbers aren't public, but I'd imagine most people who trial EVE don't sub. 50% of those who do sub are gone within a month. 90% of those who do sub are gone within 6 months. What represents the overall churn for EVE? 99.9% no longer playing? 99.999%? More? Of that small percent, 25,000 characters are purchased each year to skip the SP grind.
"A vanishingly small, nearly imperceptible percentage of people can stomach the SP system and therefore it's fine." isn't a convincing argument.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 18:29:03 -
[4132] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: Please dont take this the wrong way that was very informative and a good read but didnt actually say why a player would stay any length of time if a core mechanic of the game was such a problem they would continue to play for anything upto 12 years .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=h-jfvjMoe9Y&list=PLQvKSs1k6DLOiGGb44McruXcndTtzUUlu#t=1002 Because theirs ships blown up and they are seeking for revange |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 18:35:36 -
[4133] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:[quote=Levi Belvar]My rewards are the things i Kill, the things i build, The challenges i overcome i have never viewed the skill mechanic as a reward but the means to get where i am now. So? It still is a reward.. for subbing or for paying lots of money for a character and such. That's a huge turnoff for apparently 99% of the potential EVE market. The demographic which agrees to paying a subscription for a hugely limited amount of content in ratio of the game's potential is quite the minority. Such windowed specialization is uninteresting. There's no real interaction with the sandbox design (especially production and invention) -- the very feature list of the game. Maybe setting this out clearly makes it seem as simple as it is. Here's a great post about why SP is barely an RPG mechanic. I still cant get my head around 1 point you cant really answer at all. 1 /2 / 3/ 4 / 5 -12 years, I can see why the young characters think holy **** balls, yeah i'll pay to advance they just see shinies all the more quicker, but if its so abhorrant to the old player then why have you continued to play it,why did you continue to play after a few months and think this aint for me can't get anywhere fast and quit. what kept you wanting to play it originally thats so different now you can use alot of content What, the reason that the game is played at all? ..The reason that the game had a positive PCU trend, then all of a sudden negative? Some posts here imply that the game (originally) only having the basic, T1 ships promotes a decently balanced playing field. That makes sense, but there're also a lot more games on the market. More games coming from crowdfunding and free game engines devalues the whole industry's base price -- especially because a lot of games are just free. There's, as well, a decent percentage of sub potential that's already invested in those crowdfunding games. That's no reason to imply that it's a huge percentage, nor that those would give little attention to a game like EVE. So, it's completely about the reception of the game per sub; and lots of information is aplenty for what develops interest. There's no game like EVE, honestly, so there must be something preventing immersion; and that must be the limitations on experiencing the game. Please dont take this the wrong way that was very informative and a good read but didnt actually say why a player would stay any length of time if a core mechanic of the game was such a problem they would continue to play for anything upto 12 years . It does: the game's initial design is that of frigates taking on T1 BSs. What's more is that the market is so full of much less expensive experiences.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio The OSS
678
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 18:38:50 -
[4134] - Quote
You know, the thing that both amuses/worries me in equal measure is that it's obvious that a great many of the proponents both here and on reddit (and boy are they militant over there) have absolutely no idea even how it works, how the abuse cases can be manufactured trivially, how likely this is to be done by old players.
What there are, however, are seas of people who stand to profit and genuine newbies who think the voices against this are just old dinosaurs trying to keep them down.
This is going to be like freighter rigs, like crimewatch, trollceptors, like a million other changes - the loudest voices can't see past their own din to understand how this will be turned around and that they will be put to the sword by the very mechanic they clamor for. When the old guard advise caution or that it is a bad idea, out come the rabbling pitchforks and they are drowned out by sheer weight of noise.
Then 6 months later, the same bloody people come crying about the mechanics they kicked, screamed for and well damnit just downright DEMANDED be put into place.
If you let this genie from the bottle, there is no getting it back in. None. It's going to create a metashift like allowing a second ball on the pitch on your game of choice. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1182
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 18:40:42 -
[4135] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Waited a bit before bothering to look, can't see any issues You know as well as I do Drac that this will be exploited to hell by goons and PL and won't be to the benefit of new players. Everything will get exploited by people like Goons and PL, its their nature. It will certainly make assessing threat levels by past killboard history a bit hit and miss which will make it easier for them, but still I see the 6 month to 2 year old players as the most likely to quit, so this may help... I think that is the intention alongside making loads of money for CCP, but in reality I can't see it helping them. The big money players will use this to create alts on a whim and prices will be driven above what a new player can realistically grind for. This. Clearly they've tried to mitigate it, hence the diminishing returns. But, BUT this doesn't account for the alts. However I cannot believe this would be an oversight, perhaps initially, but not for long. Which means either people don't care, or the income takes precedence. I dislike either option.
Its a good point, those big money players seem to have screwed over the plex market, so yeah they will definitely do it here.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically a themepark for gankers
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4202
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 18:55:48 -
[4136] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:afkalt wrote:
This. Clearly they've tried to mitigate it, hence the diminishing returns. But, BUT this doesn't account for the alts.
However I cannot believe this would be an oversight, perhaps initially, but not for long. Which means either people don't care, or the income takes precedence.
I dislike either option.
Its a good point, those big money players seem to have screwed over the plex market, so yeah they will definitely do it here. The 2 markets will be closely tied together. A TSP will cost about 1/4 plex maximum. Maybe less, never more.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
457
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 19:51:21 -
[4137] - Quote
Dror wrote:So? It still is a reward.. for subbing or for paying lots of money for a character and such. That's a huge turnoff for apparently 99% of the potential EVE market. The demographic which agrees to paying a subscription for a hugely limited amount of content in ratio of the game's potential is quite the minority. Such windowed specialization is uninteresting. There's no real interaction with the sandbox design (especially production and invention) -- the very feature list of the game. Maybe setting this out clearly makes it seem as simple as it is. Here's a great post about why SP is barely an RPG mechanic. I don't know what part you are trying to bite. Is it that EvE has subscription but it doesn't provide anything? Old skills system? New players caught by illusion they can't compete with vets? Salpad is partially right (and wrong with lvl 7 skills, you don't extinguish fire with fuel), you can't create your own class in EvE, but you may choose your path, how to train your clone, what direction you choose and what you may achieve by that. It's a sandbox. Now we comes to the second part: Motivation It's how you perceive the game. It's a sandbox. If you don't have motivation to undock 500mil skills clone won't do that. "My training implants prevents me from pvp..." What makes me undock? Training system that works even when I'm not playing? (It was good when my clone was young, I set up training que and next day when I come back to the game with skills already there, I don't have to grind exp like in other games "bring me 500 strider legs"), competition with other players? friends? EvE is a niche game not only because SP system. Players comes here without idea "what I want from the game?" If I have all best items in D3 from a start I won't be playing it as much as I do now. I maxed wizard to the point I have nothing to do with her. Guess if I'm playing further? I'm fully aware that system is flawed and speeding up is needed, but I can name propably dozen of things why players don't stay here.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Dave Stark
7625
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 20:10:57 -
[4138] - Quote
the difference between games like diablo 3 and eve are that the only thing to do in those games is grind gear. if all there were to do in eve was grind skills then all you'd do is set a skill queue and never log in. you can't say "if i start with all the gear in d3 i won't play"... no **** you've exhausted all of it's content.
accumulating SP isn't the only thing to do in eve, unlike diablo where the only thing to do is grind for gear. this is why elite dangerous was such a terrible game - it offers nothing to do but grind for the sake of grinding (there isn't even anything to spend money on except to grind money faster).
you're comparing apples to oranges. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
5848
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 20:37:12 -
[4139] - Quote
If CCP is looking for more of a cash grab, removing SP would be a better idea. Then new players can engage in the fantasy that buying a battleship makes them powerful (said battleship funded by PLEX sale), and gradually learn that bigger is not always better, and that there's more to combat in EVE than bringing the biggest gun.
Another option for the cash grab is to have more reasons to buy PLEX (e.g.: special offers with custom skins or limited edition ships, or whatever).
Day 0 Advice for New Players
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
5848
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 20:41:21 -
[4140] - Quote
Another option for skill extraction would be to extract a skill, rather than raw skill points. This would mean that certain SP (Engineering 5) are more valuable than others (Mining 5). The extracted skills would effectively become skill books with non-0 skill level.
Thus the benefit to the player selling the skills comes at the cost of losing a skill that is actually valuable, rather than whichever useless skill they've got the implants and neural remap set to train the fastest.
I'd still prefer removing SP altogether.
Day 0 Advice for New Players
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1649
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 20:49:40 -
[4141] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:If CCP is looking for more of a cash grab, removing SP would be a better idea. Then new players can engage in the fantasy that buying a battleship makes them powerful (said battleship funded by PLEX sale), and gradually learn that bigger is not always better, and that there's more to combat in EVE than bringing the biggest gun.
Another option for the cash grab is to have more reasons to buy PLEX (e.g.: special offers with custom skins or limited edition ships, or whatever).
Doubtful it would work out like this. All those vet accounts subbed with no real intent to play regularly but not wanting to miss out on training would suddenly have the SP addiction removed as a reason to stay subbed. Add to that the likely outrage this thread evidences for any change to the SP system and "invalidating years of training" and you'll probably kill off any notion of an increase in subs or plex consumption.
Edit: Maybe my experience is highly atypical but I never actually made the line strait for BSs. They were a tool of necessity for PvE due to being actually better for that purpose. And even then there was no hurry either, getting 500m for the ship + fitting was trivial with all the time I spent before even injecting my first BS skill. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
66
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 20:56:07 -
[4142] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:If CCP is looking for more of a cash grab, removing SP would be a better idea. Then new players can engage in the fantasy that buying a battleship makes them powerful (said battleship funded by PLEX sale), and gradually learn that bigger is not always better, and that there's more to combat in EVE than bringing the biggest gun.
Another option for the cash grab is to have more reasons to buy PLEX (e.g.: special offers with custom skins or limited edition ships, or whatever).
Remove attribs from game, have it so all skills train as if you have +30 to all Uncouple frigate / destroyer / cruiser / battlecruiser / battleship lockins - Dont have to work up the chain Uncouple Missles as above Uncouple Guns as above all T2 variants should still be skill governed
If the skillpoint monster is to go ahead then i dont think you should cannibalize any form of player or let it be governed by the players as there is so many ways it could be abused, which just leaves it for CCP to sell TSP for a pre determined figure.
EDIT: Im really against that last part but i'd rather it be that way than what could happen in game. |
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 21:05:29 -
[4143] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:If CCP is looking for more of a cash grab, removing SP would be a better idea. Then new players can engage in the fantasy that buying a battleship makes them powerful (said battleship funded by PLEX sale), and gradually learn that bigger is not always better, and that there's more to combat in EVE than bringing the biggest gun.
Another option for the cash grab is to have more reasons to buy PLEX (e.g.: special offers with custom skins or limited edition ships, or whatever).
Doubtful it would work out like this. All those vet accounts subbed with no real intent to play regularly but not wanting to miss out on training would suddenly have the SP addiction removed as a reason to stay subbed. Add to that the likely outrage this thread evidences for any change to the SP system and "invalidating years of training" and you'll probably kill off any notion of an increase in subs or plex consumption. Edit: Maybe my experience is highly atypical but I never actually made the line strait for BSs. They were a tool of necessity for PvE due to being actually better for that purpose. And even then there was no hurry either, getting 500m for the ship + fitting was trivial with all the time I spent before even injecting my first BS skill. My main from 2007 can't fly BS or use any large guns, never been an issue |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 21:06:18 -
[4144] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dror wrote:So? It still is a reward.. for subbing or for paying lots of money for a character and such. That's a huge turnoff for apparently 99% of the potential EVE market. The demographic which agrees to paying a subscription for a hugely limited amount of content in ratio of the game's potential is quite the minority. Such windowed specialization is uninteresting. There's no real interaction with the sandbox design (especially production and invention) -- the very feature list of the game. Maybe setting this out clearly makes it seem as simple as it is. Here's a great post about why SP is barely an RPG mechanic. I don't know what part you are trying to bite. Is it that EvE has subscription but it doesn't provide anything? Old skills system? New players caught by illusion they can't compete with vets? Salpad is partially right (and wrong with lvl 7 skills, you don't extinguish fire with fuel), you can't create your own class in EvE, but you may choose your path, how to train your clone, what direction you choose and what you may achieve by that. It's a sandbox. Now we comes to the second part: Motivation It's how you perceive the game. It's a sandbox. If you don't have motivation to undock 500mil skills clone won't do that. "My training implants prevents me from pvp..." What makes me undock? Training system that works even when I'm not playing? (It was good when my clone was young, I set up training que and next day when I come back to the game with skills already there, I don't have to grind exp like in other games "bring me 500 strider legs"), competition with other players? friends? EvE is a niche game not only because SP system. Players comes here without idea "what I want from the game?" If I have all best items in D3 from a start I won't be playing it as much as I do now. I maxed wizard to the point I have nothing to do with her. Guess if I'm playing further? I'm fully aware that system is flawed and speeding up is needed, but I can name propably dozen of things why players don't stay here. Seems Dave's got this one lined up. Really getting the benefit of motivation research comes from checking out exactly what science defines as motivational. Through that picture, the ideas are basically mastery, inter-relatedness, and freedom. So, here's a critique on WoW for example. It probably requires no explaining, but the game's problems include everything being linear and predictable and shallow because it's just sorta getting a few sets of gear until the instanced content is completed, with the remainder of the game providing basically nothing.
A neat idea coming up on some forums is that WoW could really benefit from sandbox gameplay. If gear would become irreversibly worthless as a consequence of poor play or overwhelming odds, there's so much room for interesting gear affixes and for designing further engagement through this. The game can keep its instanced content and its arena PvP, but giving the community something to do in the fields is a reason to come play. This, obviously, has the benefit of requiring crafted replacements, and that sets up a whole economy. This also completes what's shown with intrinsic motivation -- mastering the map control for resources.. or the positioning for controlling engagement, the choice of multiple gear affixes and gameplay styles (e.g., mobility and buffs through the multiple crafting professions), and the cohesion of the market and its requirements.
So, the problem with EVE, with this same idea, is just that the depth is completely inaccessible, and this scales completely throughout the game. This is about reasons to log in and play. If subs can't be competitive with ores and refinement, why? They should -- it's why they're here. If they feel like adventuring through the development of ships, modules, and innovations, that's completely within the game's parameters to supply. In fact, with completely trusting very established ideas of this motivation theory, there's absolutely no reason for SP -- and every reason for its inexistence. If it's providing nothing for our explanation of motivation, it's just preventing.. initiative and creativity and diversity and exploration and stories, thus sub and referral potential.
Thereof, gaming is played for feeling competitive.. especially for outplaying those in the sub's crew (for everything in which they're interested).
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:If CCP is looking for more of a cash grab, removing SP would be a better idea. Then new players can engage in the fantasy that buying a battleship makes them powerful (said battleship funded by PLEX sale), and gradually learn that bigger is not always better, and that there's more to combat in EVE than bringing the biggest gun.
Another option for the cash grab is to have more reasons to buy PLEX (e.g.: special offers with custom skins or limited edition ships, or whatever).
Doubtful it would work out like this. All those vet accounts subbed with no real intent to play regularly but not wanting to miss out on training would suddenly have the SP addiction removed as a reason to stay subbed. Add to that the likely outrage this thread evidences for any change to the SP system and "invalidating years of training" and you'll probably kill off any notion of an increase in subs or plex consumption. The truth of commonality shows a very clear path to interesting design. It'd be great getting some criticisms on the idea.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
451
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 21:56:37 -
[4145] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:K04 78 wrote:I'd really like to know, whats CCPs actual intention behind this feature.
- Is it to simply gain more $ out of the current playerbase? ( I can totally understand that and as a player, I support that, as a broke CCP can't deliver me the game I love. But please not in this way.) - Is it to help new players? (Please do so without Pay-To-Win!) - Is it just to add new "features", because someone wants new features for the marketing charts ? - Is it just a really nice trolling to the community ?
No really: What is the idea behind it? What do you guys want to archieve with that feature? If the community knows the intention, then we maybe can help to get better ideas. I would really like it way more to help, than to just rant about how sh.. your idea is
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf If even 50% of said is truth, I think we can understand where does the change come from. And I am not referring to the need for money, but to chaotic organisation and no clear vision.
You don't need to read the guardian article for that. It's pretty damn obvious from the dozen directions this company and game are being pulled in. |
Kairg
United Operations
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 22:42:10 -
[4146] - Quote
I think this SP trading idea is terrible, and I was shocked to read that dev blog.
Having a long standing character myself, the accumulated skill points (which at present) can only be obtained through subscription time has a big value to me. It's something which can't be taken away or made less valuable. I could lose all my in game assets and ISK but my skill points would remain. It's the one single thing which will stop me from ever cancelling my subscription should I get bored of the game.
I am however open to the idea of using the proposed system to exchange skill points within the same character. The skill "packets" would be character locked or not be an item at all. This system could be used to exchange skill points from unwanted skills into wanted ones, without changing the skill point total at all. This would of course still need to be limited as proposed, else the years of carefully planned skill training in eve-mon would have been a waste of time.
If all else fails and the original crazy idea goes ahead, at least place a hard cap on the consumption of these packets so they can't be used past 80 mil SP or something. |
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
734
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 23:32:26 -
[4147] - Quote
The character bazaar does not sell SP - It sells characters. Which for new players is usually done via the purchase of PLex with $.
The aim with what is proposed is to give new players a stepping stone into the New Eden universe. At a cost.
That in itself is a good idea but adding another mircotransaction directed at existing players spending $ is not the right direction to go. Your existing player base is already pushed to spend money on, skins and clothing - So you don't look like a "poor", don't put the cost of helping new players get a kickstart on your current players.
There are 2 ways I came up with CCP can give new players the opportunity to "buy skills" when starting out. 1/ Increase the amount of SP new characters start out with by for example; Trail account = 28 days and starts with 1 million "unallocated" SP
Upon upgrading to a subscription, the new player has "upgrade options" For example; A player chooses to subscribe using "Most Popular" (6 months of game time), once that link is selected he (or she) is then taken to an adjoining page which (for characters with less than 50 mil SP only) gives them the option to buy a "Skill Package", these could be based on *real time* training. With +4's and an optimal remap you can train 1,753,920 SP in 28 days at a cost of 1 Plex or $14.95 US. Package 1 - 1.800.000 (unallocated) SP @ $14.95 US or 1 Plex Package 2 - 3.600.000 (unallocated) SP @ $ 29.90 US or 2 Plex Package 3 - 10,000,000 (UNallocated) SP @ $83.00 US or 5 plex
2/ Allow those wanting to purchase SP to buy "Transneural Skill Packets" from the New Eden Store. There could be a new addition to Captains Quarters (maybe next to "Planets") where players can advertise SP they are willing to sell or buy. Player enters "Captains Quarters" opens "SP Store" and selects a player he wishes to start a transaction with, "they" negotiate a price for the amount and cost of the SP to be transferred. Once the deal is struck a "neural enhancement specialist" (npc dr who removes SP and installs it in the new owner) is engaged at which time the purchaser hands over his Transneural Skill Packet and places the isk in escrow with the Dr, to be delivered to the seller upon successful transfer of the agreed upon amount of skills. (up to a maximum of 500k SP per package)
Dr uses the Transneural Skill Packet, purchaser gets his SP, seller gets his isk. (nominal isk fee charged by "neural enhancement specialist", removes isk from the game)
CCP make a small amount of income through a new microstransaction, that existing players aren't forced to shell out more isk or $ on. Those wanting to buy SP can - and pay for the whole transaction.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
|
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
208
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 00:15:05 -
[4148] - Quote
I don't have a problem with new players paying extra money to jump the sp grind. There are alot of people that want to try different of aspects of the game but don't want to spend 1+ months training for the ship / skill entry barrier for each part of eve they want to try.
Its not pay to win (maybe for PVE) but for PvP your shiny ship/SP doesn't matter nearly as much as player skill and experience. I agree it is pay to reduce training time but considering the player count currently I think its a a necessary evil to get the player count up again and extra revenue for CCP. I dont want EvE to die.
I agree on the abuse problem. - The SP Cap is a good idea. - Perhaps there should be a limit on how many times a player (not accounts) can use the SP injections packs per year. To make the alt farming for SP/isk thing harder.
"... ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new... thats where is eve placed... not in cave..."-á | zoonr-Korsairs |-á QFT !
|
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S Affirmative.
428
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 02:57:43 -
[4149] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Canadian Fire wrote:All things considered it's not really such a horrible idea, but I still don't like it. If it is to be implemented, I would like to see a hard cap on it. IE you cannot inject SP on characters with over XX number of SP. Or some kind of balancing mechanic to make it so a day 1 char can get a big advantage, yes, but can't jump straight to all level 5 skills for $15,000 USD. At the very least I can catch up on some SP I missed when I wasn't able to sub I suppose. A hard cap seems to be a common request, and I think there may be some merit to that. We'll certainly look in to it. I'm not sure how to determine where that cap is though, if it's purely for prestige purposes. On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell. How about a hard cap that changes based on age? So that the max SP that a character can have is based on the age of the character. EG SP Cap = Age * Max Training Speed with Optimized Attribs or SP Cap = Age * Max Training Speed with Optimized Attribs + some Fixed Value
The first one is my preferred one. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
138
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 03:14:53 -
[4150] - Quote
Caldari 5 wrote: EG SP Cap = Age * Max Training Speed with Optimized Attribs or SP Cap = Age * Max Training Speed with Optimized Attribs + some Fixed Value
The first one is my preferred one.
SP Cap = 25 Million SP
|
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Merior
Class D In Space Weyr Syndicate
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 04:11:26 -
[4151] - Quote
Looks like a cheat mode that will allow the gankers to replace their character with a fully skilled rookie under a new name or have I misread it? |
Emiko Rowna
Aliastra Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 05:21:11 -
[4152] - Quote
What if the skill points bought were put into a reservoir that was drained over time at a variable rate to increase training speed?
0 GÇô 15 million SP (for every 2 points trained 1 would be gained from the reservoir) So the best result would be train 10 million and gain 5 million
15 GÇô 55 million SP (for every 3 points trained 1 would be gained from the reservoir) So the best result would be train 30 million and gain a full 10 million
55 GÇô 115 million (for every 5 points trained 1 would be gained from the reservoir) So the best results would be train 50 million and gain the full 10 million
115 GÇô up (for every 10 points trained 1 would be gained from the reservoir) Even at 225 million the most gained from this could 35 million.
Upside Older players could be allowed all of the points from the device, the diminishing return would come from the slower rate of gain. There for they might be more likely to use this system. There are built in limits here that do not exist for player willing to spend the ISK under the current purposed system. Tournament plays will not be able to use this to buy back their T3 skills between matches as they will be able to do under the currently purposed system. Under the currently purposed system there will be pressure to buy as many of these as fast as you can but under my method they could be bought over time. This will help the market in the long term making it more stable. New player will only need to buy one from the get go to start gaining while still having the option later and not losing any opportunity. I would hate for someone to get the bad taste from the start that CCP is just out for as much cash as they can get before one even knows if they like the game.
FYI GÇô My biggest concern about doing this at all is that it will put a big target on accounts. I wait for the nightmare of the first account that gets hacked and all of the skill points are drained off someones main. I would not want to be in customer service talking to the person that had 100 million drained off. Even if not sold just think of the items being destroyed after the points are drained (meta that). That main will be unusable until the investigation is over (letGÇÖs hope the logs show something). How many long term player will be lost if this happens? They will have the biggest targets on them.
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Dave Stark
7625
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 05:41:16 -
[4153] - Quote
Merior wrote:Looks like a cheat mode that will allow the gankers to replace their character with a fully skilled rookie under a new name or have I misread it?
those are called alts, we've had them for a long time. |
Chainsaw Plankton
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
1932
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 05:43:16 -
[4154] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Mag's wrote:This reply just makes it look like a done deal. How many features have even made it to the Dev blog stage without being implemented? Someone with a truly silver tongue may be able to get CCP to tweak some settings, but this was a 'done deal' by the time it hit the CSM Summit. What I'm looking forward to? The threadnaught spawned from the first Epic Arc that rewards completion with a skill packet. there have been a few, although it seems pretty rare. the main one I remember was some thread on carriers that went 100+ pages. and the dev responsible changed their name and I think eventually left ccp. sadly the forum links are broken.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/capital-ships-in-eve-whats-up-doc/ http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/carriers-the-swiss-army-knife-of-eve/
heh looks like they almost knew what they were playing with
Quote:Well, we have an idea, and before you go ballistic remember that this is an idea and weGÇÿre still working on it
@ChainsawPlankto
|
Chainsaw Plankton
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
1932
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 05:45:43 -
[4155] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Merior wrote:Looks like a cheat mode that will allow the gankers to replace their character with a fully skilled rookie under a new name or have I misread it? those are called alts, we've had them for a long time. plus it is against the rules to recycle characters to get around sec penalties
although many gankers operate at -10 and just don't care. Besides tags4sec is probably way cheaper than buying SP.
@ChainsawPlankto
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 06:41:37 -
[4156] - Quote
Merior wrote:Looks like a cheat mode that will allow the gankers to replace their character with a fully skilled rookie under a new name or have I misread it? It's not an option for gankers because to be effective in terms of DPS they need to activate PLEX. Most important DPS skills are forbiden to learning on trial accounts(like "Small Blaster Specialization"). PLEX is way too pricey than sec.tags |
Dave Stark
7625
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 06:59:13 -
[4157] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Merior wrote:Looks like a cheat mode that will allow the gankers to replace their character with a fully skilled rookie under a new name or have I misread it? It's not an option for gankers because to be effective in terms of DPS they need to activate PLEX. Most important DPS skills are forbiden to learning on trial accounts(like "Small Blaster Specialization"). PLEX is way too pricey than sec.tags
thermodynamics is probably the most important. pretty sure they already get that given to them upon account creation now, if i'm not mistaken? |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 07:03:54 -
[4158] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:General Lootit wrote:Merior wrote:Looks like a cheat mode that will allow the gankers to replace their character with a fully skilled rookie under a new name or have I misread it? It's not an option for gankers because to be effective in terms of DPS they need to activate PLEX. Most important DPS skills are forbiden to learning on trial accounts(like "Small Blaster Specialization"). PLEX is way too pricey than sec.tags thermodynamics is probably the most important. pretty sure they already get that given to them upon account creation now, if i'm not mistaken? Thermodynamics not really is important as Small Blaster Specialization http://www.minerbumping.com/2015/10/catalyst-training-under-new-system.html |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
459
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 07:04:12 -
[4159] - Quote
Dror wrote:A neat idea coming up on some forums is that WoW could really benefit from sandbox gameplay. If gear would become irreversibly worthless as a consequence of poor play or overwhelming odds, there's so much room for interesting gear affixes and for designing further engagement through this. The game can keep its instanced content and its arena PvP, but giving the community something to do in the fields is a reason to come play. This, obviously, has the benefit of requiring crafted replacements, and that sets up a whole economy. This also completes what's shown with intrinsic motivation -- mastering the map control for resources.. or the positioning for controlling engagement, the choice of multiple gear affixes and gameplay styles (e.g., mobility and buffs through the multiple crafting professions), and the cohesion of the market and its requirements. This more or less what we have in EvE. The choke point are SP. SP are biggest flaw here. Everything was build around them. Some of them don't make any sense, like manufacturing skills. I have to wait x days to be able to build things. Not to mention social skills. I think I know what Salpad meant. Avatars are the same, they only difference in amount of SP accumulated on them. Main problem is CCP can't just remove SP (or it will be hard to do). Most of market items like ships and modules are bonded with SP level. Now if we just remove them who would use T1 items? Ships are used, but modules? Items are tiered in this game. What if: - there are no SP; - all skills are at level 1 (if I pass my driving license I can ride all cars, no matter if it's nissan micra or ferrari testarossa); - higher level of skills are obtained by impants or artificial augumentations; - said implants are: destroable, player build, far more slots that right now, cheaper - at the level of most of books; - all characters have some "neural skill points" - constant value. NSP are capped, implants "costs" some NSP - we build our clones the way we like it, but choice matters, some implants will cost more than other (something similiar to ships fitting we have now) - I have no idea what to do with tiered modules (If I'm building explorer I would always choose T2 modules).
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Tav Breil'ya
Rogues and Bandits
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 07:06:55 -
[4160] - Quote
Obviously a way to get around for scammers and fraudsters.
Sad to see that money (ISK or real) can buy anything in the game, even long-term skilltraning.
A really, really bad idea to bring to the game to sell individual skillpoints off a character. and a really sad story for newbies to lose a multi-billion capital ship, just because they don't know how to play it, despite the skillpoints in the bank. |
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Dave Stark
7625
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 07:11:12 -
[4161] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:General Lootit wrote:Merior wrote:Looks like a cheat mode that will allow the gankers to replace their character with a fully skilled rookie under a new name or have I misread it? It's not an option for gankers because to be effective in terms of DPS they need to activate PLEX. Most important DPS skills are forbiden to learning on trial accounts(like "Small Blaster Specialization"). PLEX is way too pricey than sec.tags thermodynamics is probably the most important. pretty sure they already get that given to them upon account creation now, if i'm not mistaken? Thermodynamics not really as important as Small Blaster Specialization http://www.minerbumping.com/2015/10/catalyst-training-under-new-system.html
http://www.minerbumping.com/2012/12/the-evolution-of-catalyst-pilot.html "With tech II guns, remember to fit Void S instead. It offers over 11% more damage than the faction ammo does."
whereas thermodynamics offers 15% overheat bonus. not that it matters - new players just get given it now. |
Soltys
31
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 07:48:35 -
[4162] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:What if: - there are no SP; - all skills are at level 1 (if I pass my driving license I can ride all cars, no matter if it's nissan micra or ferrari testarossa); - higher level of skills are obtained by impants or artificial augumentations; - said implants are: destroable, player build, far more slots that right now, cheaper - at the level of most of books; - all characters have some "neural skill points" - constant value. NSP are capped, implants "costs" some NSP - we build our clones the way we like it, but choice matters, some implants will cost more than other (something similiar to ships fitting we have now) - I have no idea what to do with tiered modules (If I'm building explorer I would always choose T2 modules).
Outside SP brothel (erm, bazaar)/ SP packs, they can be simply fixed and shifted towards one-time ISKsink from timesink - like I mentioned here (at the top of that wall of text).
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
459
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 07:56:29 -
[4163] - Quote
Soltys wrote:Outside SP brothel (erm, bazaar)/ SP packs, they can be simply fixed and shifted towards one-time ISKsink from timesink - like I mentioned here (at the top of that wall of text). So just bought by ISK? Instead of time to train, ISK to train?
Soltys wrote:Firstly be honest and admit it's not aimed at new players. and we done here.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3197
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 08:04:18 -
[4164] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: Rent 3 billion
Right scum as were looking after you your also going to have to stump up 5 mill TSP a month < Extortion but still legal in EvE its a commodity now so as such not covered by anti scam
Now that is an interesting thought, the character bazaar Is protected and monitored. Are you saying that this is so safe that it has no need of that? Anybody see any safety issues if it is NOT the same as the bazaar?
Or are we all trustworthy enough that such safeties are not needed?
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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Dave Stark
7626
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 08:06:18 -
[4165] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: Rent 3 billion
Right scum as were looking after you your also going to have to stump up 5 mill TSP a month < Extortion but still legal in EvE its a commodity now so as such not covered by anti scam
Now that is an interesting thought, the character bazaar Is protected and monitored. Are you saying that this is so safe that it has no need of that? Anybody see any safety issues if it is NOT the same as the bazaar? Or are we all trustworthy enough that such safeties are not needed? m
the safety feature is that you can just go and buy SP from the market. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 08:11:02 -
[4166] - Quote
Kairg wrote: I am however open to the idea of using the proposed system to exchange skill points within the same character.
Dev blog
Quote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. Many people who against this idea are whining about that consequences are not important anymore but it is not the case. |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2528
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 08:11:08 -
[4167] - Quote
Tav Breil'ya wrote:Obviously a way to get around for scammers and fraudsters.
Sad to see that money (ISK or real) can buy anything in the game, even long-term skilltraning.
A really, really bad idea to bring to the game to sell individual skillpoints off a character. and a really sad story for newbies to lose a multi-billion capital ship, just because they don't know how to play it, despite the skillpoints in the bank. It doesn't. Money buys the ability to EXTRACT skill points, not skill points themselves. And you will no doubt be able to purchase the extractors for isk on the market if you so desire.
Edit: just read the comment again and you mentioned isk. Perhaps that is where the difference in opinions stems from. I do not view isk and 'money'.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
66
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 08:17:32 -
[4168] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: Rent 3 billion
Right scum as were looking after you your also going to have to stump up 5 mill TSP a month < Extortion but still legal in EvE its a commodity now so as such not covered by anti scam
Now that is an interesting thought, the character bazaar Is protected and monitored. Are you saying that this is so safe that it has no need of that? Anybody see any safety issues if it is NOT the same as the bazaar? Or are we all trustworthy enough that such safeties are not needed? m the safety feature is that you can just go and buy SP from the market.
You keep saying that but as we are now you can't, that concept doesnt exist . If this were to go ahead as i said earlier the only way it cannot be abused what so ever is to have CCP to sell them and not be made so they can be traded either, that way it can only benefit the new or deeper pocketed players and will not effect the ecomony in anyway. |
Dave Stark
7626
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 08:36:06 -
[4169] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: Rent 3 billion
Right scum as were looking after you your also going to have to stump up 5 mill TSP a month < Extortion but still legal in EvE its a commodity now so as such not covered by anti scam
Now that is an interesting thought, the character bazaar Is protected and monitored. Are you saying that this is so safe that it has no need of that? Anybody see any safety issues if it is NOT the same as the bazaar? Or are we all trustworthy enough that such safeties are not needed? m the safety feature is that you can just go and buy SP from the market. You keep saying that but as we are now you can't, that concept doesnt exist . If this were to go ahead as i said earlier the only way it cannot be abused what so ever is to have CCP to sell them and not be made so they can be traded either, that way it can only benefit the new or deeper pocketed players and will not effect the ecomony in anyway.
what are you blithering about?
buying sp from the market is exactly what this concept is. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 08:41:25 -
[4170] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: Rent 3 billion
Right scum as were looking after you your also going to have to stump up 5 mill TSP a month < Extortion but still legal in EvE its a commodity now so as such not covered by anti scam
Now that is an interesting thought, the character bazaar Is protected and monitored. Are you saying that this is so safe that it has no need of that? Anybody see any safety issues if it is NOT the same as the bazaar? Or are we all trustworthy enough that such safeties are not needed? m the safety feature is that you can just go and buy SP from the market. it cannot be abused . Abusing is too loud word for that. I think calling it part of traiding warfare is better. And any warfare is legit part of the game.
|
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 08:48:00 -
[4171] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:that way it can only benefit the new or deeper pocketed players and will not effect the ecomony in anyway. But
Levi Belvar wrote: You keep saying that but as we are now you can't, that concept doesnt exist .
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 09:12:35 -
[4172] - Quote
Tav Breil'ya wrote:really sad story for newbies to lose a multi-billion capital ship, just because they don't know how to play it, despite the skillpoints in the bank. Bad decisions leads to bad consequences. First rule of EVE Be able to afford a loss. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
67
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 09:14:48 -
[4173] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: Rent 3 billion
Right scum as were looking after you your also going to have to stump up 5 mill TSP a month < Extortion but still legal in EvE its a commodity now so as such not covered by anti scam
Now that is an interesting thought, the character bazaar Is protected and monitored. Are you saying that this is so safe that it has no need of that? Anybody see any safety issues if it is NOT the same as the bazaar? Or are we all trustworthy enough that such safeties are not needed? m the safety feature is that you can just go and buy SP from the market. You keep saying that but as we are now you can't, that concept doesnt exist . If this were to go ahead as i said earlier the only way it cannot be abused what so ever is to have CCP to sell them and not be made so they can be traded either, that way it can only benefit the new or deeper pocketed players and will not effect the ecomony in anyway. what are you blithering about? buying sp from the market is exactly what this concept is.
As it is now sure you can extort more money from a renter but what you going to spend it on ? there is no way to build a perfect toon or add skillpoints to make any character any better Instantly.
Your problem is your talking as if sp's are here now and keep rambling on as if you can because its the same |
Dave Stark
7626
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 09:21:46 -
[4174] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:As it is now sure you can extort more money from a renter but what you going to spend it on ? there is no way to build a perfect toon or add skillpoints to make any character any better Instantly.
Your problem is your talking as if sp's are here now and keep rambling on as if you can because its the same
the same thing they're always spending isk on? more supers, srp, pos fuel... if they didn't need the money to spend on things they wouldn't be renting out their space.
it doesn't matter if you can't build a perfect toon - that's not what's being discussed here.
whether you extort SP or isk from people is irrelevant as they are interchangable. if goons want 5m SP per month from a renter they can either ask for 5m SP directly or ask for the 3.5bn isk it will cost them to buy it in jita and move it to where they need it.
it's like them asking for 3 plex per month rent instead. they're not forcing you to spend real money. you just go to jita and buy a plex then contract it to your benevolent landlord. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
460
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 09:25:49 -
[4175] - Quote
Zappity wrote:It doesn't. Money buys the ability to EXTRACT skill points, not skill points themselves. And you will no doubt be able to purchase the extractors for isk on the market if you so desire. Money also buys ISK (by PLEX) which can be spend on skill points by buying extracted SP. How much SP I'll able to buy depends on PLEX and skill pack prices. Can I buy SP for RL money? non-directly.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
67
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 09:28:26 -
[4176] - Quote
Dave,
Game as it is now , No skillpoint trading in it.
rent 3 bill
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 3 bill tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater There is no skillpoints in this senario so you bank the extra cash, distribute it, buy minerals - There is no instant character progression it doesnt exist.
Game with skillpoint trading
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 5 mill TSP tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater.
Now times this on how ever many they could use this concept on Right we have 80 mill is TSP this month in the kittty, we can use this to create a new logi wing in flashjacks crew. |
Dave Stark
7626
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 09:32:23 -
[4177] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave,
Game as it is now , No skillpoint trading in it.
rent 3 bill
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 3 bill tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater There is no skillpoints in this senario so you bank the extra cash, distribute it, buy minerals - There is no instant character progression it doesnt exist.
Game with skillpoint trading
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 5 mill TSP tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater.
Now times this on how ever many they could use this concept on Right we have 80 mill is TSP this month in the kittty, we can use this to create a new logi wing in flashjacks crew.
you say that like they can't just buy logi pilots if that's what they need. (funfact, they can) |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
67
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 09:33:34 -
[4178] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave,
Game as it is now , No skillpoint trading in it.
rent 3 bill
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 3 bill tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater There is no skillpoints in this senario so you bank the extra cash, distribute it, buy minerals - There is no instant character progression it doesnt exist.
Game with skillpoint trading
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 5 mill TSP tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater.
Now times this on how ever many they could use this concept on Right we have 80 mill is TSP this month in the kittty, we can use this to create a new logi wing in flashjacks crew. you say that like they can't just buy logi pilots if that's what they need. (funfact, they can)
But not for free you ******** blockhead |
Dave Stark
7626
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 09:34:53 -
[4179] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave,
Game as it is now , No skillpoint trading in it.
rent 3 bill
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 3 bill tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater There is no skillpoints in this senario so you bank the extra cash, distribute it, buy minerals - There is no instant character progression it doesnt exist.
Game with skillpoint trading
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 5 mill TSP tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater.
Now times this on how ever many they could use this concept on Right we have 80 mill is TSP this month in the kittty, we can use this to create a new logi wing in flashjacks crew. you say that like they can't just buy logi pilots if that's what they need. (funfact, they can) But not for free you ******** blockhead
they aren't getting TSPs for free. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
67
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 09:36:02 -
[4180] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave,
Game as it is now , No skillpoint trading in it.
rent 3 bill
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 3 bill tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater There is no skillpoints in this senario so you bank the extra cash, distribute it, buy minerals - There is no instant character progression it doesnt exist.
Game with skillpoint trading
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 5 mill TSP tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater.
Now times this on how ever many they could use this concept on Right we have 80 mill is TSP this month in the kittty, we can use this to create a new logi wing in flashjacks crew. you say that like they can't just buy logi pilots if that's what they need. (funfact, they can) But not for free you ******** blockhead they aren't getting TSPs for free.
At the moment dave theyre not in the game remember |
|
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
66
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 09:36:26 -
[4181] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave,
Game as it is now , No skillpoint trading in it.
rent 3 bill
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 3 bill tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater There is no skillpoints in this senario so you bank the extra cash, distribute it, buy minerals - There is no instant character progression it doesnt exist.
Game with skillpoint trading
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 5 mill TSP tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater.
Now times this on how ever many they could use this concept on Right we have 80 mill is TSP this month in the kittty, we can use this to create a new logi wing in flashjacks crew.
You realize that even now in the scenario you talk about, they could have just gone to the character bazaar and bought a bunch of new logi pilots just the same right? Having a warchest full of ISK or injectable SP leads to pretty much the same result.
Sure the Injection route (depending on the final cost) MAY be a bit more focused, but by the same extension the purchased character can also be improved and resold later when the meta changes, most likely for a profit so can also be looked upon as an investment. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 09:37:09 -
[4182] - Quote
Hey Levi don't ignore me. We are a friends. Right? or parrots
Levi Belvar wrote: because we protected you against xyz you pay us 5 mill TSP tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater. .... Right we have 80 mill is TSP this month in the kittty, we can use this to create a new logi wing in flashjacks crew.
Levi Belvar wrote: You keep saying that but as we are now you can't, that concept doesnt exist .
|
Dave Stark
7626
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 09:39:43 -
[4183] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave,
Game as it is now , No skillpoint trading in it.
rent 3 bill
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 3 bill tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater There is no skillpoints in this senario so you bank the extra cash, distribute it, buy minerals - There is no instant character progression it doesnt exist.
Game with skillpoint trading
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 5 mill TSP tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater.
Now times this on how ever many they could use this concept on Right we have 80 mill is TSP this month in the kittty, we can use this to create a new logi wing in flashjacks crew. you say that like they can't just buy logi pilots if that's what they need. (funfact, they can) But not for free you ******** blockhead they aren't getting TSPs for free. At the moment dave theyre not in the game remember
you say that like renters are magically living in rental space for free right now.
newsflash; they aren't. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
67
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 09:40:08 -
[4184] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave,
Game as it is now , No skillpoint trading in it.
rent 3 bill
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 3 bill tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater There is no skillpoints in this senario so you bank the extra cash, distribute it, buy minerals - There is no instant character progression it doesnt exist.
Game with skillpoint trading
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 5 mill TSP tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater.
Now times this on how ever many they could use this concept on Right we have 80 mill is TSP this month in the kittty, we can use this to create a new logi wing in flashjacks crew. You realize that even now in the scenario you talk about, they could have just gone to the character bazaar and bought a bunch of new logi pilots just the same right? Having a warchest full of ISK or injectable SP leads to pretty much the same result. Sure the Injection route (depending on the final cost) MAY be a bit more focused, but by the same extension the purchased character can also be improved and resold later when the meta changes, most likely for a profit so can also be looked upon as an investment.
The tribute is extortion money basically holding renters to ransom, theyre free TSP's as such . Going to the bazaar you spending isk, im on about creating toons from extortion money - ergo free characters or boosting existing |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
67
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 09:52:21 -
[4185] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:you say that like renters are magically living in rental space for free right now.
newsflash; they aren't.
Dave you either need to goto bed or shut your yammering you have no clue about what im talking about here obviously. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:00:22 -
[4186] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:you say that like renters are magically living in rental space for free right now.
newsflash; they aren't. Dave you either need to goto bed or shut your yammering you have no clue about what im talking about here obviously. Levi you are too emotional person. Also your statments are controdict with each other and you can't admint that you are maybe wrong in something. This are good reasons to assume that you are demagogue. Sorry. |
Dave Stark
7627
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:03:28 -
[4187] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:you say that like renters are magically living in rental space for free right now.
newsflash; they aren't. Dave you either need to goto bed or shut your yammering you have no clue about what im talking about here obviously.
i'm not entirely sure you do either. every time a point of yours is proven to be false you just cry "but it's not in the game yet" like it makes you less wrong. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
67
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:04:36 -
[4188] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:you say that like renters are magically living in rental space for free right now.
newsflash; they aren't. Dave you either need to goto bed or shut your yammering you have no clue about what im talking about here obviously. Levi you are too emotional person. Also your statments are controdict with each other and you can't admint that you are maybe wrong in something. This are good reasons to assume that you are demagogue. Sorry.
Ive explained it fine, its not my fault that translators are making it harder for you to grasp what im actually saying, maybe someone like Rawthorm does. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1787
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:04:46 -
[4189] - Quote
[quote=Dave Stark]...stuff...
The problem I see with TSP being used in rental (and there's no way to stop that if it's a tradeable commodity) is the newer less capable and/or space rich players will be tempted to just harvest their own SP meaning they then get 'left behind' as they see it.
I notice from skipreading the thread now and then that no goons have denied they will attempt to control the market on SP ;) As I have said before they would be stupid not to. |
Dave Stark
7627
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:05:20 -
[4190] - Quote
yes, you've explained that landlords will ask for SP instead of isk.
we've pointed out how this changes nothing. |
|
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2036
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:07:23 -
[4191] - Quote
I don't really care about this skill point thing, the only thing I'm concerned about it the fact that this is yet another thing that leads to higher PLEX prices, which contributes to falling subscription number. How is that a good thing?
This is one of the only games that requires you to pay -ú10 per month to play and then has the nerve to overprice things like skin... It's almost like CCP want to drive people out.
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks
|
Dave Stark
7627
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:08:03 -
[4192] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...stuff... The problem I see with TSP being used in rental (and there's no way to stop that if it's a tradeable commodity) is the newer less capable and/or space rich players will be tempted to just harvest their own SP meaning they then get 'left behind' as they see it. I notice from skipreading the thread now and then that no goons have denied they will attempt to control the market on SP ;) As I have said before they would be stupid not to.
and that's different to them just selling the SP to pay the rental bill if the landlords say "carry on paying your rent in isk"? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
70
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:08:40 -
[4193] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:you say that like renters are magically living in rental space for free right now.
newsflash; they aren't. Dave you either need to goto bed or shut your yammering you have no clue about what im talking about here obviously. i'm not entirely sure you do either. every time a point of yours is proven to be false you just cry "but it's not in the game yet" like it makes you less wrong.
Youve not proven anything wrong you just go back and forth that TSP's and bazaar toons are the same, I gave up on you seeing their differences but im now giving you a very easy way if it was left to players and not CCP how TSP's could create very real abuse that would be fine in game. |
Dave Stark
7627
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:09:55 -
[4194] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:you say that like renters are magically living in rental space for free right now.
newsflash; they aren't. Dave you either need to goto bed or shut your yammering you have no clue about what im talking about here obviously. i'm not entirely sure you do either. every time a point of yours is proven to be false you just cry "but it's not in the game yet" like it makes you less wrong. Youve not proven anything wrong you just go back and forth that TSP's and bazaar toons are the same, I gave up on you seeing their differences but im now giving you a very easy way if it was left to players and not CCP how TSP's could create very real abuse that would be fine in game.
you've just demonstrated you haven't read a single thing i've posted. their differences are irrelevant. we're not talking about bazaar toons we're talking about paying landlords. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
70
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:11:42 -
[4195] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:yes, you've explained that landlords will ask for SP instead of isk.
we've pointed out how this changes nothing.
No i didnt say sp for isk, i said they pay there isk/rent then they are asked to pay a tribute for the protection theyre being afforded in a controlled pocket of space - This is the part you have not wrapped your nugget round yet . |
Dave Stark
7627
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:15:01 -
[4196] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:yes, you've explained that landlords will ask for SP instead of isk.
we've pointed out how this changes nothing. No i didnt say sp for isk, i said they pay there isk/rent then they are asked to pay a tribute for the protection theyre being afforded in a controlled pocket of space - This is the part you have not wrapped your nugget round yet .
so you're asking them to pay 2 lots of rent.
so you're just putting their rent up. ok, so what does increasing rental fees for renters have to do with this proposal? |
Josef Djugashvilis
3044
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:17:02 -
[4197] - Quote
This is going to happen, not because it will improve the new player experience, not because wealthy vets can 'exploit' the market, not because players have demanded it, but because CCP need the hoped for, extra money.
No more, no less.
This is not a signature.
|
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2036
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:17:19 -
[4198] - Quote
Why are these dweebs arguing about renters?
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
259
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:17:22 -
[4199] - Quote
I think if CCP want to implement this then they should be straight.
All SP should be accumulated into a unallocated pool for each subbed account. This SP can then be distributed between characters on that account or sold onto the market.
This is the logical conclusion to the current direction this idea takes us.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
70
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:17:52 -
[4200] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:yes, you've explained that landlords will ask for SP instead of isk.
we've pointed out how this changes nothing. No i didnt say sp for isk, i said they pay there isk/rent then they are asked to pay a tribute for the protection theyre being afforded in a controlled pocket of space - This is the part you have not wrapped your nugget round yet . so you're asking them to pay 2 lots of rent. so you're just putting their rent up. ok, so what does increasing rental fees for renters have to do with this proposal?
Try reading it again then, im not going through it all again because your illiterate. |
|
Dave Stark
7627
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:20:05 -
[4201] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:yes, you've explained that landlords will ask for SP instead of isk.
we've pointed out how this changes nothing. No i didnt say sp for isk, i said they pay there isk/rent then they are asked to pay a tribute for the protection theyre being afforded in a controlled pocket of space - This is the part you have not wrapped your nugget round yet . so you're asking them to pay 2 lots of rent. so you're just putting their rent up. ok, so what does increasing rental fees for renters have to do with this proposal? Try reading it again then, im not going through it all again because your illiterate.
we don't need you to continue, we've already established that renters paying in SP is no different to paying in ISK. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3044
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:23:17 -
[4202] - Quote
Lordy, Mr Dave, I am beginning to suspect that you are a 24 hour a day typing bot :)
Keep up the good fight.
This is not a signature.
|
Dave Stark
7628
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:25:11 -
[4203] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Lordy, Mr Dave, I am beginning to suspect that you are a 24 hour a day typing bot :)
Keep up the good fight.
it's threads like this that remind me why i go to reddit rather than eve-o to discuss ideas, to be honest. (more dev replies, for a start) |
Josef Djugashvilis
3047
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:30:39 -
[4204] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Lordy, Mr Dave, I am beginning to suspect that you are a 24 hour a day typing bot :)
Keep up the good fight. it's threads like this that remind me why i go to reddit rather than eve-o to discuss ideas, to be honest. (more dev replies, for a start)
That the devs respond more outside of their own ingame forum, is, bad, bad, bad.
When it comes to public relations, CCP remind me of the old John Cleese, 'how not to do it' management educational films.
This is not a signature.
|
Dave Stark
7629
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:37:15 -
[4205] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Lordy, Mr Dave, I am beginning to suspect that you are a 24 hour a day typing bot :)
Keep up the good fight. it's threads like this that remind me why i go to reddit rather than eve-o to discuss ideas, to be honest. (more dev replies, for a start) That the devs respond more outside of their own ingame forum, is, bad, bad, bad. When it comes to public relations, CCP remind me of the old John Cleese, 'how not to do it' management educational films.
to be fair, reddit is a better source of eve info all around. all i have to do is check the top threads on reddit rather than checking F&I to figure out if there are any new stickies, devblogs to see if there are any of those that are new, eve news if there's anything in there, etc.
it's all in one place; the front page. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:38:20 -
[4206] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Lordy, Mr Dave, I am beginning to suspect that you are a 24 hour a day typing bot :)
Keep up the good fight. it's threads like this that remind me why i go to reddit rather than eve-o to discuss ideas, to be honest. (more dev replies, for a start) That the devs respond more outside of their own ingame forum, is, bad, bad, bad. When it comes to public relations, CCP remind me of the old John Cleese, 'how not to do it' management educational films. Reddit is better because of design of comments which allow to popup more popular opinion. If devs implement something like this here then many people will blame them on wrapping votes.
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3047
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:46:44 -
[4207] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Lordy, Mr Dave, I am beginning to suspect that you are a 24 hour a day typing bot :)
Keep up the good fight. it's threads like this that remind me why i go to reddit rather than eve-o to discuss ideas, to be honest. (more dev replies, for a start) That the devs respond more outside of their own ingame forum, is, bad, bad, bad. When it comes to public relations, CCP remind me of the old John Cleese, 'how not to do it' management educational films. to be fair, reddit is a better source of eve info all around. all i have to do is check the top threads on reddit rather than checking F&I to figure out if there are any new stickies, devblogs to see if there are any of those that are new, eve news if there's anything in there, etc. it's all in one place; the front page.
Does this not rather suggest that CCP need to revamp the ingame forum site?
This is not a signature.
|
Dave Stark
7630
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:50:19 -
[4208] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Lordy, Mr Dave, I am beginning to suspect that you are a 24 hour a day typing bot :)
Keep up the good fight. it's threads like this that remind me why i go to reddit rather than eve-o to discuss ideas, to be honest. (more dev replies, for a start) That the devs respond more outside of their own ingame forum, is, bad, bad, bad. When it comes to public relations, CCP remind me of the old John Cleese, 'how not to do it' management educational films. to be fair, reddit is a better source of eve info all around. all i have to do is check the top threads on reddit rather than checking F&I to figure out if there are any new stickies, devblogs to see if there are any of those that are new, eve news if there's anything in there, etc. it's all in one place; the front page. Does this not rather suggest that CCP need to revamp the ingame forum site?
not really, i still wouldn't use eve-o as much as reddit. even if the layout matched reddit it'd still be strangled by moderation. not that i'm saying the moderation is bad here (far from it). ccp are obligated to moderate it - which can be stifling to discussion. reddit will never suffer from that issue. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
259
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:54:45 -
[4209] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:not really, i still wouldn't use eve-o as much as reddit. Is it possible to use reddit any more than your useing eve-o atm?
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Dave Stark
7630
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:57:02 -
[4210] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:not really, i still wouldn't use eve-o as much as reddit. Is it possible to use reddit any more than your useing eve-o atm?
oh, i'm sorry. did you run out of actual points to make? |
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
131
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 11:15:34 -
[4211] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
That the devs respond more outside of their own ingame forum, is, bad, bad, bad.
When it comes to public relations, CCP remind me of the old John Cleese, 'how not to do it' management educational films.
to be fair, reddit is a better source of eve info all around. all i have to do is check the top threads on reddit rather than checking F&I to figure out if there are any new stickies, devblogs to see if there are any of those that are new, eve news if there's anything in there, etc. it's all in one place; the front page. Does this not rather suggest that CCP need to revamp the ingame forum site? not really, i still wouldn't use eve-o as much as reddit. even if the layout matched reddit it'd still be strangled by moderation. not that i'm saying the moderation is bad here (far from it). ccp are obligated to moderate it - which can be stifling to discussion. reddit will never suffer from that issue.
Actually it is one more sign which shows where EVE is going if CCP employees discuss more on reddit than here. They should fix this one then, either make same outlay as reddit or find some other solution...
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7630
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 11:24:27 -
[4212] - Quote
"eve is dying because people use other places to discuss the game"
probably doesn't help that unlike reddit, eve-o is blocked at work for a lot of people. no amount of "new layout" will help that. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1787
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 11:26:13 -
[4213] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...stuff... The problem I see with TSP being used in rental (and there's no way to stop that if it's a tradeable commodity) is the newer less capable and/or space rich players will be tempted to just harvest their own SP meaning they then get 'left behind' as they see it. I notice from skipreading the thread now and then that no goons have denied they will attempt to control the market on SP ;) As I have said before they would be stupid not to. and that's different to them just selling the SP to pay the rental bill if the landlords say "carry on paying your rent in isk"?
You can earn ISK in many ways, you can only gain SP personally with time. |
Dave Stark
7630
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 11:31:34 -
[4214] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...stuff... The problem I see with TSP being used in rental (and there's no way to stop that if it's a tradeable commodity) is the newer less capable and/or space rich players will be tempted to just harvest their own SP meaning they then get 'left behind' as they see it. I notice from skipreading the thread now and then that no goons have denied they will attempt to control the market on SP ;) As I have said before they would be stupid not to. and that's different to them just selling the SP to pay the rental bill if the landlords say "carry on paying your rent in isk"? You can earn ISK in many ways, you can only gain SP personally with time.
or by purchasing it from the market. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2212
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 11:33:48 -
[4215] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave,
Game as it is now , No skillpoint trading in it.
rent 3 bill
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 3 bill tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater There is no skillpoints in this senario so you bank the extra cash, distribute it, buy minerals - There is no instant character progression it doesnt exist.
Game with skillpoint trading
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 5 mill TSP tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater.
Now times this on how ever many they could use this concept on Right we have 80 mill is TSP this month in the kittty, we can use this to create a new logi wing in flashjacks crew. You realize that even now in the scenario you talk about, they could have just gone to the character bazaar and bought a bunch of new logi pilots just the same right? .
Only if they are there. This is a key facet you're all (probably deliberately) missing. There is a finite supply. Furthermore the bazaar cannot react to a balance or meta shift instantly. Toons take time to grow, overall SP gain is tempered by the existing stats limiting how fast it can be grown because the core skills are off map from the ship and weapon skills, for example. If tomorrow suddenly maels were the go-to line ship, there wouldn't be a flood of those perfect pilots on the market overnight, it would take time.
These packs though, allow focused min/maxing to harvest the most SP possible on a single map and dump it elsewhere, they also mean that large blocs could react instantly to a new meta, if they so they choose.
Today, there's absolutely no way possible for me or anyone else to roll up to the bazaar and walk out with 50 sabre pilots tomorrow. Once this goes live, I can spit them out this afternoon, never mind tomorrow.
And don't give me cost, large blocs reimburse caps and supers, if you think they can't and won't spring a couple of hundred billion to hit the ground running on a new meta, well then you must be new here. Further undermining the cost argument is the "newbie tool" fallacy.
If a newbie can afford it, people like me and other's can afford to burn them for funsies. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
131
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 11:43:56 -
[4216] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:"eve is dying because people use other places to discuss the game"
probably doesn't help that unlike reddit, eve-o is blocked at work for a lot of people. no amount of "new layout" will help that. as evidenced by almost every first comment in a reddit thread that links back here says "can some one paste the text so i can read it at work please?"
Please stop twisting out what I have said. Oh wait you are doing it for last 150 pages no matter it was already pointed out.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 11:44:08 -
[4217] - Quote
BTW about reddit. One of whining posts which I can't argue with.
Quote:So I've been playing EVE since before space even existed, well before China started farming WoW gold in the 1800s. It's always touched me in places I never expected. I often sit and think how much headway I could make in life if it wasn't for internet spaceships, but the ship spinning alone brings joy and meaning to my life. But then this new thing was introduced to the game. This new thing will completely break and ruin the game! In the past, I did the old thing in the old way, and that was fine. I did it, I was fine, and nothing went wrong. But now there's this new thing... why?! There are many reasons why this new thing will break the game. The equipment we farmed will have different value now. The work we did will be easier or harder for subsequent people to do. It is different. It is not the same as it was before. The way it was before is how I want it to remain. It is new. I don't like it. These are just the things that come to mind after barely glancing through the first paragraph of the devpost. But, enough of that. CCPlease, can we please stop this new thing before it's too late? I can tell you all about why the new thing is bad. I did the old thing day in, day out, and I was better at it than all of you. I had Mastery VI of the old thing. If you think my being too used to the old thing is why I dislike the new thing, you are sadly mistaken! For I have like Mastery VIIXIV of the new thing, too. Even though it's new, I'm still better at it than all of you, even the people who are better at it than I am, and I've been better at it since before I was born. But, still, the old thing was better, and this new thing is bad, and wrong, and badly wrong. Devs, CSMs, ISDs, OGBs, IPAs, please hear my pleas. This new thing will change the game from how it was before, and this cannot be allowed to happen. Stop, now. I know you'll listen to me, because you always listen to meGÇöand only meGÇöbecause we've known each other all our lives, even when we didn't know it. We used to do the thing (not the new thing, the old one) by the place, and you once told me, "Nez, your three semesters of Game Development at the community college give you more knowledge and experience than all of us together, and we'll let you veto any changes you don't like." Well, that didn't happen. You went behind my back, and you did it to my face. Anyway. I'm not bitter, though I will unsubscribe my eleventy accounts at the drop of a hat if this thing isn't changed. I just want to be clear: I am basically the unofficial CSM chair with my dank skills, this new thing is bad, and the old thing is the only way that anything should ever be done. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
131
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 11:44:47 -
[4218] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...stuff... The problem I see with TSP being used in rental (and there's no way to stop that if it's a tradeable commodity) is the newer less capable and/or space rich players will be tempted to just harvest their own SP meaning they then get 'left behind' as they see it. I notice from skipreading the thread now and then that no goons have denied they will attempt to control the market on SP ;) As I have said before they would be stupid not to. and that's different to them just selling the SP to pay the rental bill if the landlords say "carry on paying your rent in isk"? You can earn ISK in many ways, you can only gain SP personally with time. or by purchasing it from the market.
You mean purchase char from the bazaar? As you cannot buy sp at the moment silly :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7630
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 11:45:10 -
[4219] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:"eve is dying because people use other places to discuss the game"
probably doesn't help that unlike reddit, eve-o is blocked at work for a lot of people. no amount of "new layout" will help that. as evidenced by almost every first comment in a reddit thread that links back here says "can some one paste the text so i can read it at work please?" Please stop twisting out what I have said. Oh wait you are doing it for last 150 pages no matter it was already pointed out.
i haven't twisted anything.
reddit will still be more popular than eve-o due to the very fact that most people simply cannot access it as easily as reddit regardless of layout. |
Pinkylein
Rolling Static Gone Critical
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 11:45:53 -
[4220] - Quote
First i do not support this idea at all, as probably most ppl already covered all parts of what it brings with it in negative effects towards other players.
"One guy beeing happy about Command Ship V" ... the other one "just bought it 5 min ago" ...
In case it will be placed, i would suggest an alternative ... something like "trying to extract SP from your toon results in a chance-based success". Best would be like the chance of getting an escalation out of one of the HS Combat sites into DED sites, or even better the chance to get a faction spawn, after grinding ore belts".
If only every 20th SP extraction try with reduced outcome ofc, would be successful, you would probably rip a 100M SP char for getting like 1M SP out. They would probably worth like 20B ISK ... but i doubt ppl will invest alot to push their skills. I still don't support the idea ... but in worst case, if it gets implemented, it should be that ineffective, that only 5% of all players even consider doing it, and from those 5% maybe 2% is really going for it.
I know you can buy alts, and i know tons of ppl who bought chars to have something ready. But mostly those are ppl, that already know how painful skilling can be and how happy you are and thankful for many months of patience to finally fly a ship you wanted for so long. And mostly those alts that are bought, are actually JF-alts, Industrial alts, or things ... that only come online once a day for 5min.
But if you would implement a system, that undermines ppl's willingness and patience to invest days, weeks, months and years to get finally into a ship, so thatt would result in like having birthday and christmas at one day ... by giving other ppl the opportunity to push their toons in exactly those ships in minutes .... that would be such a punsh into everyones face, that many people will probably stop playing as the ONLY big value ... "TIME" became totally meaningless in this game.
Pinky |
|
Dave Stark
7630
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 11:46:19 -
[4221] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:You mean purchase char from the bazaar? As you cannot buy sp at the moment silly :)
no, i mean from the market.
we're talking about a hypothetical where this is already in the game. you'd have known that if you'd have read the thread before posting. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
132
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 11:52:14 -
[4222] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:"eve is dying because people use other places to discuss the game"
probably doesn't help that unlike reddit, eve-o is blocked at work for a lot of people. no amount of "new layout" will help that. as evidenced by almost every first comment in a reddit thread that links back here says "can some one paste the text so i can read it at work please?" Please stop twisting out what I have said. Oh wait you are doing it for last 150 pages no matter it was already pointed out. i haven't twisted anything. reddit will still be more popular than eve-o due to the very fact that most people simply cannot access it as easily as reddit regardless of layout.
Of course you did. I never said eve is dying because of people using other places to discuss the game. Read my post again. Beside that you twistied every comment possible to twist in previous 200+ pages...
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7630
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 11:56:21 -
[4223] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:"eve is dying because people use other places to discuss the game"
probably doesn't help that unlike reddit, eve-o is blocked at work for a lot of people. no amount of "new layout" will help that. as evidenced by almost every first comment in a reddit thread that links back here says "can some one paste the text so i can read it at work please?" Please stop twisting out what I have said. Oh wait you are doing it for last 150 pages no matter it was already pointed out. i haven't twisted anything. reddit will still be more popular than eve-o due to the very fact that most people simply cannot access it as easily as reddit regardless of layout. Of course you did. I never said eve is dying because of people using other places to discuss the game. Read my post again. Beside that you twistied every comment possible to twist in previous 200+ pages...
once more - it doesn't matter if eve-o gets a facelift, people will still go to reddit to post and the devs will follow them there as it'll be the place with the most feedback.
this will happen because reddit is more accessible to people than eve-o is. as i pointed out, every time a devblog or thread like this is crossposted to eve the first comments are usually asking for the text body to be pasted in to a comment as they can't follow the link here due to filters and such like.
now, you can discuss the point or carry on crying that i paraphrased you. |
Dave stark
7630
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:02:14 -
[4224] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:You mean purchase char from the bazaar? As you cannot buy sp at the moment silly :) no, i mean from the market. we're talking about a hypothetical where this is already in the game. you'd have known that if you'd have read the thread before posting. Of course it has not been talked about a hypothetical since he obviously wrote the state which it is now. SP comes over time. So pleas,e in order to prove what you said is correct please show me where i can go to buy 300mil sp straight away. I have both isk and cash ready. Thanks in advance.
he started his post with "The problem I see with TSP being used in rental", so clearly he was speaking about the hypothetical where this is already in the game.
as to where you can buy 300m SP; here |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
132
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:02:52 -
[4225] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:"eve is dying because people use other places to discuss the game"
probably doesn't help that unlike reddit, eve-o is blocked at work for a lot of people. no amount of "new layout" will help that. as evidenced by almost every first comment in a reddit thread that links back here says "can some one paste the text so i can read it at work please?" Please stop twisting out what I have said. Oh wait you are doing it for last 150 pages no matter it was already pointed out. i haven't twisted anything. reddit will still be more popular than eve-o due to the very fact that most people simply cannot access it as easily as reddit regardless of layout. Of course you did. I never said eve is dying because of people using other places to discuss the game. Read my post again. Beside that you twistied every comment possible to twist in previous 200+ pages... once more - it doesn't matter if eve-o gets a facelift, people will still go to reddit to post and the devs will follow them there as it'll be the place with the most feedback. this will happen because reddit is more accessible to people than eve-o is. as i pointed out, every time a devblog or thread like this is crossposted to eve the first comments are usually asking for the text body to be pasted in to a comment as they can't follow the link here due to filters and such like. now, you can discuss the point or carry on crying that i paraphrased you.
It still does not change a fact i stated, that you twisted my words.
I did not even want to go in discussion which one is better or why. I can completely accept that reddit is better in every possible way. BUT, official forums should be the way CCP communicates and discusses with players since guess what, they are official. Or just close this one, move to reddit and say that reddit eve-online section is official forum for that.
I am not crying on that you paraphrased me, I just pointed out (again) what are you doing in the most of your posts :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
132
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:04:49 -
[4226] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:You mean purchase char from the bazaar? As you cannot buy sp at the moment silly :) no, i mean from the market. we're talking about a hypothetical where this is already in the game. you'd have known that if you'd have read the thread before posting. Of course it has not been talked about a hypothetical since he obviously wrote the state which it is now. SP comes over time. So pleas,e in order to prove what you said is correct please show me where i can go to buy 300mil sp straight away. I have both isk and cash ready. Thanks in advance. he started his post with "The problem I see with TSP being used in rental", so clearly he was speaking about the hypothetical where this is already in the game. as to where you can buy 300m SP; here
And then he said "You can earn ISK in many ways, you can only gain SP personally with time." so it was quite obvious that is related to the current state.
I went on the link you provided but there is no option to purchase now. Stop lying :/
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave stark
7630
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:04:55 -
[4227] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:It still does not change a fact i stated, that you twisted my words.
I did not even want to go in discussion which one is better or why. I can completely accept that reddit is better in every possible way. BUT, official forums should be the way CCP communicates and discusses with players since guess what, they are official. Or just close this one, move to reddit and say that reddit eve-online section is official forum for that.
I am not crying on that you paraphrased me, I just pointed out (again) what are you doing in the most of your posts :D
so you're saying CCP should disregard one of the best sources of feedback because it's not run by them? |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:07:27 -
[4228] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Rawthorm wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave,
Game as it is now , No skillpoint trading in it.
rent 3 bill
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 3 bill tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater There is no skillpoints in this senario so you bank the extra cash, distribute it, buy minerals - There is no instant character progression it doesnt exist.
Game with skillpoint trading
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 5 mill TSP tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater.
Now times this on how ever many they could use this concept on Right we have 80 mill is TSP this month in the kittty, we can use this to create a new logi wing in flashjacks crew. You realize that even now in the scenario you talk about, they could have just gone to the character bazaar and bought a bunch of new logi pilots just the same right? . Only if they are there. This is a key facet you're all (probably deliberately) missing. There is a finite supply. Furthermore the bazaar cannot react to a balance or meta shift instantly. Toons take time to grow, overall SP gain is tempered by the existing stats limiting how fast it can be grown because the core skills are off map from the ship and weapon skills, for example. If tomorrow suddenly maels were the go-to line ship, there wouldn't be a flood of those perfect pilots on the market overnight, it would take time. These packs though, allow focused min/maxing to harvest the most SP possible on a single map and dump it elsewhere, they also mean that large blocs could react instantly to a new meta, if they so they choose. Today, there's absolutely no way possible for me or anyone else to roll up to the bazaar and walk out with 50 sabre pilots tomorrow. Once this goes live, I can spit them out this afternoon, never mind tomorrow. And don't give me cost, large blocs reimburse caps and supers, if you think they can't and won't spring a couple of hundred billion to hit the ground running on a new meta, well then you must be new here. Further undermining the cost argument is the "newbie tool" fallacy - and if it's not affordable for newbies, what's the goddamned point of all this. If a newbie can afford it, people like me and others can afford to burn them for funsies. edit: Oh and Dave, reddit is just an echo chamber for this, there's a serious and dedicated downvote campaign if any dares speak against it. I'm newbie which will use that. Even if another noob could't afford that by soloing than he might find a corp/allince which will boost him.
Big allinces beating small ones. Any news here? |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
132
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:08:18 -
[4229] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:It still does not change a fact i stated, that you twisted my words.
I did not even want to go in discussion which one is better or why. I can completely accept that reddit is better in every possible way. BUT, official forums should be the way CCP communicates and discusses with players since guess what, they are official. Or just close this one, move to reddit and say that reddit eve-online section is official forum for that.
I am not crying on that you paraphrased me, I just pointed out (again) what are you doing in the most of your posts :D so you're saying CCP should disregard one of the best sources of feedback because it's not run by them?
Nope, if you would read my posts I even proposed to close this forum and use reddit as official one.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7630
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:09:10 -
[4230] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:You mean purchase char from the bazaar? As you cannot buy sp at the moment silly :) no, i mean from the market. we're talking about a hypothetical where this is already in the game. you'd have known that if you'd have read the thread before posting. Of course it has not been talked about a hypothetical since he obviously wrote the state which it is now. SP comes over time. So pleas,e in order to prove what you said is correct please show me where i can go to buy 300mil sp straight away. I have both isk and cash ready. Thanks in advance. he started his post with "The problem I see with TSP being used in rental", so clearly he was speaking about the hypothetical where this is already in the game. as to where you can buy 300m SP; here And then he said "You can earn ISK in many ways, you can only gain SP personally with time." so it was quite obvious that is related to the current state. I went on the link you provided but there is no option to purchase now. Stop lying :/
you said straight away, that link will let you do it. you didn't say now.
i've got an idea for you; instead of spending all your time posting nothing of relevance whining about me - try discussing the topic. |
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2213
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:09:23 -
[4231] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:It still does not change a fact i stated, that you twisted my words.
I did not even want to go in discussion which one is better or why. I can completely accept that reddit is better in every possible way. BUT, official forums should be the way CCP communicates and discusses with players since guess what, they are official. Or just close this one, move to reddit and say that reddit eve-online section is official forum for that.
I am not crying on that you paraphrased me, I just pointed out (again) what are you doing in the most of your posts :D so you're saying CCP should disregard one of the best sources of feedback because it's not run by them?
I think they need to be reaaaaaaally careful they don't just follow the popular voice.
Billions of people use McDonalds - doesn't make it smart.
There is often decent chat there, but putting too much emphasis on it is dangerous. The popular decision is not always the right one. |
Dave Stark
7630
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:11:04 -
[4232] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:It still does not change a fact i stated, that you twisted my words.
I did not even want to go in discussion which one is better or why. I can completely accept that reddit is better in every possible way. BUT, official forums should be the way CCP communicates and discusses with players since guess what, they are official. Or just close this one, move to reddit and say that reddit eve-online section is official forum for that.
I am not crying on that you paraphrased me, I just pointed out (again) what are you doing in the most of your posts :D so you're saying CCP should disregard one of the best sources of feedback because it's not run by them? I think they need to be reaaaaaaally careful they don't just follow the popular voice. Billions of people use McDonalds - doesn't make it smart. There is often decent chat there, but putting too much emphasis on it is dangerous. The popular decision is not always the right one.
which is why ccp take feedback from both reddit, here, people's blogs, the csm, the new focus groups, etc. there's very little more CCP could do to be "more inclusive" with regards to feedback. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
132
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:11:56 -
[4233] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:[quote=Dave Stark] Of course it has not been talked about a hypothetical since he obviously wrote the state which it is now. SP comes over time.
So pleas,e in order to prove what you said is correct please show me where i can go to buy 300mil sp straight away. I have both isk and cash ready. Thanks in advance.
he started his post with "The problem I see with TSP being used in rental", so clearly he was speaking about the hypothetical where this is already in the game. as to where you can buy 300m SP; here And then he said "You can earn ISK in many ways, you can only gain SP personally with time." so it was quite obvious that is related to the current state. I went on the link you provided but there is no option to purchase now. Stop lying :/ you said straight away, that link will let you do it. you didn't say now. i've got an idea for you; instead of spending all your time posting nothing of relevance whining about me - try discussing the topic.
Straight away as in right now. As soon as I see CCP stops you from spamming and trolling I will stop pointing at it ;)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
70
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:13:19 -
[4234] - Quote
I like many others here i suspect are in a situation (unique or otherwise) where i have 8 account's maybe more not all subbed at the moment, i have a huge pool of skillpoints i could liquidate to take full advantage of this scheduled change of mechanics. So it doesnt affect me either way it goes sort of a win / win situation.
I do not want the TSP way for players to trade as i see there being so many ways for it to be abused and it not helping to attract a new client base in anyway. Where as if we have to accept pay2win sorry progress into the game then if it is bought in as a non trade item sold to a player by CCP to use which would benefit the new as well as the existing client base,not effecting the ecomony bar stimulating it more people doing more things with more ships.
So why are the For's wanting the way it could be abused more, than the altruistic way of helping the whole with CCP marketing them for a set fee ?? |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
132
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:13:52 -
[4235] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:It still does not change a fact i stated, that you twisted my words.
I did not even want to go in discussion which one is better or why. I can completely accept that reddit is better in every possible way. BUT, official forums should be the way CCP communicates and discusses with players since guess what, they are official. Or just close this one, move to reddit and say that reddit eve-online section is official forum for that.
I am not crying on that you paraphrased me, I just pointed out (again) what are you doing in the most of your posts :D so you're saying CCP should disregard one of the best sources of feedback because it's not run by them? I think they need to be reaaaaaaally careful they don't just follow the popular voice. Billions of people use McDonalds - doesn't make it smart. There is often decent chat there, but putting too much emphasis on it is dangerous. The popular decision is not always the right one. which is why ccp take feedback from both reddit, here, people's blogs, the csm, the new focus groups, etc. there's very little more CCP could do to be "more inclusive" with regards to feedback.
If i understood correctly, ccp communicates with people there? I do not read reddit so I do not know. If that was not correct then find, no problem. If it is true then I see a problem there.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7630
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:14:11 -
[4236] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Straight away as in right now. As soon as I see CCP stops you from spamming and trolling I will stop pointing at it ;)
so you're going to carry on posting nothing constructive just because i'm posting?
and you wonder why people would rather post on reddit when this is the kind of behavior encountered on the official forums? |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2213
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:15:23 -
[4237] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote:Rawthorm wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave,
Game as it is now , No skillpoint trading in it.
rent 3 bill
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 3 bill tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater There is no skillpoints in this senario so you bank the extra cash, distribute it, buy minerals - There is no instant character progression it doesnt exist.
Game with skillpoint trading
because we protected you against xyz you pay us 5 mill TSP tribute this month also as you losses would of been far greater.
Now times this on how ever many they could use this concept on Right we have 80 mill is TSP this month in the kittty, we can use this to create a new logi wing in flashjacks crew. You realize that even now in the scenario you talk about, they could have just gone to the character bazaar and bought a bunch of new logi pilots just the same right? . Only if they are there. This is a key facet you're all (probably deliberately) missing. There is a finite supply. Furthermore the bazaar cannot react to a balance or meta shift instantly. Toons take time to grow, overall SP gain is tempered by the existing stats limiting how fast it can be grown because the core skills are off map from the ship and weapon skills, for example. If tomorrow suddenly maels were the go-to line ship, there wouldn't be a flood of those perfect pilots on the market overnight, it would take time. These packs though, allow focused min/maxing to harvest the most SP possible on a single map and dump it elsewhere, they also mean that large blocs could react instantly to a new meta, if they so they choose. Today, there's absolutely no way possible for me or anyone else to roll up to the bazaar and walk out with 50 sabre pilots tomorrow. Once this goes live, I can spit them out this afternoon, never mind tomorrow. And don't give me cost, large blocs reimburse caps and supers, if you think they can't and won't spring a couple of hundred billion to hit the ground running on a new meta, well then you must be new here. Further undermining the cost argument is the "newbie tool" fallacy - and if it's not affordable for newbies, what's the goddamned point of all this. If a newbie can afford it, people like me and others can afford to burn them for funsies. edit: Oh and Dave, reddit is just an echo chamber for this, there's a serious and dedicated downvote campaign if any dares speak against it. I'm newbie which will use that. Even if another noob could't afford that by soloing than he might find a corp/allince which will boost him. Big allinces beating small ones. Any news here?
So in the interests of giving you something, which you arguably do not need and would be best served with a different mechanism we:
sell the soul of eve cement large blocs further introduce a pay/grind to bypass mechanics for those rich enough
Yeah, that's a great trade. Fantastic.
Sure, I'm confident some of you newbies think this is so good it's literally the second coming - but I assure you it is nothing of the sort.
You're going to feel pressure to buy packs to match meta shifts, you think people are pissed now when a ship they've skilled into is nerfed? Wait until they bought their way into it , you're going to be competing with vets who can and will spew out alts for a dedicated purpose overnight. They're going to slap you up and down new eden no different to before, probably worse.
Still, so long as it speeds up you getting mining barge V to "compete", right? |
Dave Stark
7630
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:16:26 -
[4238] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:If i understood correctly, ccp communicates with people there? I do not read reddit so I do not know. If that was not correct then find, no problem. If it is true then I see a problem there.
they do indeed. yesterday i had CCP falcon post "thanks! :D" when i said that "team murder services" had the best team name i've seen so far.
i'm guessing he picked that name.
ccp communicate with everyone, everywhere. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
132
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:16:33 -
[4239] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Straight away as in right now. As soon as I see CCP stops you from spamming and trolling I will stop pointing at it ;) so you're going to carry on posting nothing constructive just because i'm posting? and you wonder why people would rather post on reddit when this is the kind of behavior encountered on the official forums?
If you can do it why should i not be able to?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:16:34 -
[4240] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:It still does not change a fact i stated, that you twisted my words.
I did not even want to go in discussion which one is better or why. I can completely accept that reddit is better in every possible way. BUT, official forums should be the way CCP communicates and discusses with players since guess what, they are official. Or just close this one, move to reddit and say that reddit eve-online section is official forum for that.
I am not crying on that you paraphrased me, I just pointed out (again) what are you doing in the most of your posts :D so you're saying CCP should disregard one of the best sources of feedback because it's not run by them? I think they need to be reaaaaaaally careful they don't just follow the popular voice. Billions of people use McDonalds - doesn't make it smart. There is often decent chat there, but putting too much emphasis on it is dangerous. The popular decision is not always the right one. Agree. They should do what they already introduced =) |
|
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
67
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:16:56 -
[4241] - Quote
afkalt wrote: Only if they are there. This is a key facet you're all (probably deliberately) missing. There is a finite supply. Furthermore the bazaar cannot react to a balance or meta shift instantly. Toons take time to grow, overall SP gain is tempered by the existing stats limiting how fast it can be grown because the core skills are off map from the ship and weapon skills, for example. If tomorrow suddenly maels were the go-to line ship, there wouldn't be a flood of those perfect pilots on the market overnight, it would take time.
These packs though, allow focused min/maxing to harvest the most SP possible on a single map and dump it elsewhere, they also mean that large blocs could react instantly to a new meta, if they so they choose.
Today, there's absolutely no way possible for me or anyone else to roll up to the bazaar and walk out with 50 sabre pilots tomorrow. Once this goes live, I can spit them out this afternoon, never mind tomorrow.
And don't give me cost, large blocs reimburse caps and supers, if you think they can't and won't spring a couple of hundred billion to hit the ground running on a new meta, well then you must be new here. Further undermining the cost argument is the "newbie tool" fallacy - and if it's not affordable for newbies, what's the goddamned point of all this.
If a newbie can afford it, people like me and others can afford to burn them for funsies.
edit: Oh and Dave, reddit is just an echo chamber for this, there's a serious and dedicated downvote campaign if any dares speak against it.
I'm not deliberately missing anything. SP Injections will also be finite in supply. You don't whip out the credit cad and blam here's 500k SP. That SP still has to come from somewhere. Even with this new mechanism the SP faucet of time will continue to drip, except now we also have an extra SP sink to go alongside T3 losses.
I agree that the bazaar isn't as instantaneous as injections will be, but in all my years of playing I've never once had to wait more than a day or two to find the character I wanted. I'd also like to bring up that I strongly doubt alliances will suddenly fund skill injection for people on any meaningful scale. If they were willing to do this, we'd already have seen alliances bulk buying characters for their members. If I'm wrong on this then please let me know where I need to go sign up because I'd love some free characters.
As for accessibility for new players, its the same for anything in game. Nothing is gonna change that front. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2213
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:17:43 -
[4242] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:It still does not change a fact i stated, that you twisted my words.
I did not even want to go in discussion which one is better or why. I can completely accept that reddit is better in every possible way. BUT, official forums should be the way CCP communicates and discusses with players since guess what, they are official. Or just close this one, move to reddit and say that reddit eve-online section is official forum for that.
I am not crying on that you paraphrased me, I just pointed out (again) what are you doing in the most of your posts :D so you're saying CCP should disregard one of the best sources of feedback because it's not run by them? I think they need to be reaaaaaaally careful they don't just follow the popular voice. Billions of people use McDonalds - doesn't make it smart. There is often decent chat there, but putting too much emphasis on it is dangerous. The popular decision is not always the right one. which is why ccp take feedback from both reddit, here, people's blogs, the csm, the new focus groups, etc. there's very little more CCP could do to be "more inclusive" with regards to feedback.
I know, but they DO engage with reddit more than here and if you frequent FANDI, you'll know that the recent method there has been
"Here are some balance changes, let us know what you think! * "
*"We don't give a ****, they're going in anyway, bye!!!" |
Malou Hashur
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
76
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:18:50 -
[4243] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Mag's wrote:CCP Terminus wrote: Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.
Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal? Nice. Daniela Doran wrote:Yes I also really like to know if this is a done deal? The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision. If it was a done deal we'd have put the dev blog out when it was going to be shipped. The whole point of the dev blog is to gather feedback and assess.
Wrong....
You are releasing this blog to give the impression that there is any chance at all of this disaster being stopped.
Everyone here knows that once a blog like this is issued, the "feature" will be implemented regardless. You may change some meaningless aspect to give the impression that you are listening but in reality, it is a "done deal".
CCP Philosophy ==>>
If it works, break it. If itGÇÖs broken, leave it and break something else.
Ignore all Forum comments that raise issues and concerns about our "features", and bring said "features" in anyway.
|
Dave Stark
7630
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:23:19 -
[4244] - Quote
afkalt wrote:I know, but they DO engage with reddit more than here and if you frequent FANDI, you'll know that the recent method there has been
"Here are some balance changes, let us know what you think! * "
*"We don't give a ****, they're going in anyway, bye!!!"
again, is that because many people simply can't post here due to filters and such?
also, them saying "what do you think?" as a rhetorical doesn't really matter which forum is used more. it's not like CCP take things to reddit first. reddit always have to get their information second hand from eve-o... they just have a bot that instantly links new stuff! |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2213
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:23:40 -
[4245] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:afkalt wrote: Only if they are there. This is a key facet you're all (probably deliberately) missing. There is a finite supply. Furthermore the bazaar cannot react to a balance or meta shift instantly. Toons take time to grow, overall SP gain is tempered by the existing stats limiting how fast it can be grown because the core skills are off map from the ship and weapon skills, for example. If tomorrow suddenly maels were the go-to line ship, there wouldn't be a flood of those perfect pilots on the market overnight, it would take time.
These packs though, allow focused min/maxing to harvest the most SP possible on a single map and dump it elsewhere, they also mean that large blocs could react instantly to a new meta, if they so they choose.
Today, there's absolutely no way possible for me or anyone else to roll up to the bazaar and walk out with 50 sabre pilots tomorrow. Once this goes live, I can spit them out this afternoon, never mind tomorrow.
And don't give me cost, large blocs reimburse caps and supers, if you think they can't and won't spring a couple of hundred billion to hit the ground running on a new meta, well then you must be new here. Further undermining the cost argument is the "newbie tool" fallacy - and if it's not affordable for newbies, what's the goddamned point of all this.
If a newbie can afford it, people like me and others can afford to burn them for funsies.
edit: Oh and Dave, reddit is just an echo chamber for this, there's a serious and dedicated downvote campaign if any dares speak against it.
I'm not deliberately missing anything. SP Injections will also be finite in supply. You don't whip out the credit cad and blam here's 500k SP. That SP still has to come from somewhere. Even with this new mechanism the SP faucet of time will continue to drip, except now we also have an extra SP sink to go alongside T3 losses. .
No, they won't be. People will create farms expressly to sell SPs. They already do it for the bazaar, you thik they'll not shift to this meta overnight? Hah, if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.
If you can't see how that's going to flood the market more than any bazaar ever could there is no helping you. You're going from pre-grown characters designed for a purpose to unallocated SP purchase. It's bonkers.
Here's the thing - If I create three farming accounts, with this proposal I can have an off grid link toon skilled approx 2.4x as fast as I could just doing it the old fashioned way. There will be a lot of such farms. There is literally no way the market will lack supply and the best part of it all is it is generic supply.
And I won't whip out the credit card, what I'll do is whip out the dread and blap me some sleepers. You know, that luxury a newbie doesn't have?
Also, I'd love LOVE someone to direct me to the sea of posts where we wanted a SKILL POINT sink. Hell, has there even been one in the last decade?
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2214
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:25:58 -
[4246] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:I know, but they DO engage with reddit more than here and if you frequent FANDI, you'll know that the recent method there has been
"Here are some balance changes, let us know what you think! * "
*"We don't give a ****, they're going in anyway, bye!!!" again, is that because many people simply can't post here due to filters and such? also, them saying "what do you think?" as a rhetorical doesn't really matter which forum is used more. it's not like CCP take things to reddit first. reddit always have to get their information second hand from eve-o... they just have a bot that instantly links new stuff!
I meant the devs.
And there have been examples of data being confirmed by CSM members before the balance team post recently....take of that what you will. |
Dave Stark
7630
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:30:00 -
[4247] - Quote
afkalt wrote:No, they won't be. People will create farms expressly to sell SPs. They already do it for the bazaar, you thik they'll not shift to this meta overnight? Hah, if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.
If you can't see how that's going to flood the market more than any bazaar ever could there is no helping you. You're going from pre-grown characters designed for a purpose to unallocated SP purchase. It's bonkers.
Here's the thing - If I create three farming accounts, with this proposal I can have an off grid link toon skilled approx 2.4x as fast as I could just doing it the old fashioned way. There will be a lot of such farms. There is literally no way the market will lack supply and the best part of it all is it is generic supply. One size fits all, doesn't matter what the meta is. No delays on firing up new characters using skills that didnt even exist yesterday (when new ships/skills are added).
And I won't whip out the credit card, what I'll do is whip out the dread and blap me some sleepers. You know, that luxury a newbie doesn't have?
Also, I'd love LOVE someone to direct me to the sea of posts where we wanted a SKILL POINT sink. Hell, has there even been one in the last decade?
you're completely correct. the barrier to entry to selling SP is literally nothing - with the power of two setting up a skill farm is free. absolutely free. edit: well, aside from your 2 +5 implants and a couple of skillbooks.
yes there have been two SP sinks in eve, only one remains. SP loss on clone destruction, and t3 subsystem loss. only the t3 subsystem loss remains. unless you mean posts asking for them - **** knows. but we're going to be flooded with SP anyway since there are no meaningful sinks. either the market gets flooded with SP packets, or the bazaar gets flooded with ever growing characters.
ever growing characters get ever more expensive, surely that's an even bigger barrier to new players than 325m for a skill packet? |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2214
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:34:37 -
[4248] - Quote
So maybe we just accept that a newbie is going to be behind a vet in terms of versatility of ship selection but can still quickly compete in a role by specializing in it.
It's almost like that's been the whole idea forever, but people can't seem to grasp it.
You wouldn't believe the amount of people I know who are years old, years - but don't have like... AF V or HAC V. They could be outstripped by a "newbie" training those skills over the course of a month. But they can't compete, don't you know. I'ts IMPOSSIBRUUUUU to even conceive such a notion.
So, instead, we just bugger Eve. Fantastic |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:36:00 -
[4249] - Quote
afkalt wrote: which you arguably do not need ... You're going to feel pressure to buy packs to match meta shifts
Let me decide what I need and what I feel.
afkalt wrote: sell the soul of eve ... literally the second coming
More catchwords please.
afkalt wrote: introduce a pay/grind to bypass mechanics for those rich enough
For those who actually playing.
afkalt wrote: you're going to be competing with vets who can and will spew out alts for a dedicated purpose overnight. They're going to slap you up and down new eden no different to before, probably worse.
Are you forgot that EVE is sandbox and I'm already doing it? |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2215
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:38:04 -
[4250] - Quote
So you've got nothing then huh? And if you don't feel pressure to keep up, why are you fighting so hard for a method to do so? You could drive a bus through your arguments.
Anyway, enjoy levelling your raven to level your toon. Enjoy not going on fleets because you have to rat up BS V. I hear that's real good for retention. |
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:51:23 -
[4251] - Quote
afkalt wrote:And if you don't feel pressure to keep up, why are you fighting so hard for a method to do so? In short because I queed up my skills.
Be jerky as you can it always helps. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2216
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:56:32 -
[4252] - Quote
So you do feel the need for these? The pressure?
Can you genuinely not see this potential (I venture) probable result being people grinding isk even harder to chase that white whale of "being able to compete"?
We all know where the PvE route takes newbros.....and ask some to pipe up, but they've all left. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 13:05:16 -
[4253] - Quote
afkalt wrote: So you do feel the need for these? The pressure?
I feel that I will have an option to grind some isk to be able to boost my SP what allow me to do what I want without waiting so long.
afkalt wrote: Can you genuinely not see this potential (I venture) probable result being people grinding isk even harder to chase that white whale of "being able to compete"?
It's their choice if they want to outcompete someone. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2221
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 13:06:08 -
[4254] - Quote
Go watch fanfest videos and check out what happens to newbros who chase PvE. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3049
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 13:06:52 -
[4255] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Straight away as in right now. As soon as I see CCP stops you from spamming and trolling I will stop pointing at it ;) so you're going to carry on posting nothing constructive just because i'm posting? and you wonder why people would rather post on reddit when this is the kind of behavior encountered on the official forums?
Mr Dave, with all respect, you should take a coffee break as you seem to be getting rather agitated.
I must admit that I am rather baffled as to how a brand spanking new player will be able to afford enough skill points to become a moderately skill based player using ingame means, missions, mining, exploration etc.
Oh wait...they can pay to sub, then splash out even more real life dosh to get the skill points !
Once again, it bears repeating as it is the core of the matter, this is not about helping new players either in terms of giving them a starting boost or new player retention, CCP needs the pennies any way they can get them.
I have subscribed for quite some time now, and the one thing that would have probably made me quit in the first couple of days would have been, pay your sub then pay more real life money to get a 'meaningful' amount of skill points.
This is not a signature.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 13:10:39 -
[4256] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Go watch fanfest videos and check out what happens to newbros who chase PvE. Actully I already posted that link. You are not so thoughtful, are you?
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1789
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 13:11:20 -
[4257] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
so you're saying CCP should disregard one of the best sources of feedback because it's not run by them?
And in a similar vein why should they disregard this forum where only paying players can post (and I would say the response has been largely negative). |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2221
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 13:14:28 -
[4258] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote:Go watch fanfest videos and check out what happens to newbros who chase PvE. Actully I already posted that link. You are not so thoughtful, are you?
So you've watched it all and understood it.
Understood that people levelling their ravens/chasing PvE have horrible retention. Understood that you yourself are feeling pressured to buy these packs to "compete" (hello there Moby D) Understood that you can buy these with isk
Yet somehow not understood that the blindingly obvious extension of that is people ratting to skill up with the end game of them quitting even faster because ratting is now tied to "progression". |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12769
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 13:22:13 -
[4259] - Quote
afkalt wrote:General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote:Go watch fanfest videos and check out what happens to newbros who chase PvE. Actully I already posted that link. You are not so thoughtful, are you? So you've watched it all and understood it. Understood that people levelling their ravens/chasing PvE have horrible retention. Understood that you yourself are feeling pressured to buy these packs to "compete" (hello there Moby D) Understood that you can buy these with isk Yet somehow not understood that the blindingly obvious extension of that is people ratting to skill up with the end game of them quitting even faster because ratting is now tied to "progression".
It's amazing to me that CCP doesn't realize this potential unintended consequence (or the others we've pointed out). By giving people short cuts, they devalue the experience overall, possibly leading to faster loses of players than they experienced before. EVE isn't just a game about fun, it's a hobby about achievement (and thus pride).
"Leveling your raven" is an achievement (even if a poor one) that at least keeps people around for a bit. "working 2 extra hours at McBurger joint to afford to buy the SP to level the raven to the point where it can do boring lvl 4 missions" is not an achievement lol, it's a recipe for quitting EVE. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1790
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 13:22:29 -
[4260] - Quote
afkalt wrote:General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote:Go watch fanfest videos and check out what happens to newbros who chase PvE. Actully I already posted that link. You are not so thoughtful, are you? So you've watched it all and understood it. Understood that people levelling their ravens/chasing PvE have horrible retention. Understood that you yourself are feeling pressured to buy these packs to "compete" (hello there Moby D) Understood that you can buy these with isk Yet somehow not understood that the blindingly obvious extension of that is people ratting to skill up with the end game of them quitting even faster because ratting is now tied to "progression".
Not to worry they can just buy PLEX to buy the SP instead, now they can just spend RL money instead to 'compete' into a ship that will then be nerfed. Because people will use this to instantly access the current FotM. If this had been available a short while back it truly would have been Ishtars online since everyone would have just bought the skills. |
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1790
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 13:25:55 -
[4261] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:... "Leveling your raven" is an achievement (even if a poor one) that at least keeps people around for a bit. "working 2 extra hours at McBurger joint to afford to buy the SP to level the raven to the point where it can do boring lvl 4 missions" is not an achievement lol, it's a recipe for quitting EVE.
Oh hell...think of the kids we'll be harming by having new players sell more burgers to them. ... |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 13:35:43 -
[4262] - Quote
If "getting SP is no achievement", then why pretend like SP trading is any worse of an idea than passive training?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 13:39:14 -
[4263] - Quote
afkalt wrote: Understood that people levelling their ravens/chasing PvE have horrible retention. Understood that you yourself are feeling pressured to buy these packs to "compete" (hello there Moby D) Understood that you can buy these with isk
Please stop putting words in my mouth.
afkalt wrote: Yet somehow not understood that the blindingly obvious extension of that is people ratting to skill up with the end game of them quitting even faster because ratting is now tied to "progression".
It's all matter of choisies and person who choose. If people like something let him to do so. Doesn't matter for how long he playing, matter that he like it. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2240
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 13:42:44 -
[4264] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote: Understood that people levelling their ravens/chasing PvE have horrible retention. Understood that you yourself are feeling pressured to buy these packs to "compete" (hello there Moby D) Understood that you can buy these with isk
Please stop putting words in my mouth. afkalt wrote: Yet somehow not understood that the blindingly obvious extension of that is people ratting to skill up with the end game of them quitting even faster because ratting is now tied to "progression".
It's all matter of choisies and person who choose. If people like something let him to do so. Doesn't matter for how long he playing, matter that he like it.
So you HAVEN'T watched and understood the video YOU linked?
Uh-huh.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree since you seem to think making a change highly likely to increase newbro burnout is a good thing because it suits your selfish requirement of instant gratification. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:03:13 -
[4265] - Quote
afkalt wrote: So you HAVEN'T watched and understood the video YOU linked?
Uh-huh.
I can't understand why are you jerking all around.
afkalt wrote: I guess we will have to agree to disagree since you seem to think making a change highly likely to increase newbro burnout is a good thing because it suits your selfish requirement of instant gratification.
So if you defend your position it makes you selfish? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
72
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:21:11 -
[4266] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:It's all matter of choisies and person who choose. If people like something let him to do so. Doesn't matter for how long he playing, matter that he like it.
Thats so comically funny, Its like the story of the kid who went to the party not stopping for anything just heading for the ice cream and cakes. He ate so much he threw up and had to go before the fun and games started.
Very apt for player retention and burnout |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:27:17 -
[4267] - Quote
afkalt wrote:General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote: Understood that people levelling their ravens/chasing PvE have horrible retention. Understood that you yourself are feeling pressured to buy these packs to "compete" (hello there Moby D) Understood that you can buy these with isk
Please stop putting words in my mouth. afkalt wrote: Yet somehow not understood that the blindingly obvious extension of that is people ratting to skill up with the end game of them quitting even faster because ratting is now tied to "progression".
It's all matter of choisies and person who choose. If people like something let him to do so. Doesn't matter for how long he playing, matter that he like it. So you HAVEN'T watched and understood the video YOU linked? Uh-huh. I guess we will have to agree to disagree since you seem to think making a change highly likely to increase newbro burnout is a good thing because it suits your selfish requirement of instant gratification. You're ascribing burnout to a very specific idea, and there's probably nothing to back that up?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6855
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:27:57 -
[4268] - Quote
What kind of ice cream, not the wimpy type, one hopes.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1796
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:32:48 -
[4269] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:What kind of ice cream, not the wimpy type, one hopes.
I prefer Mr Whippy, but only with restraint. |
Dave Stark
7630
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:33:51 -
[4270] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Mr Dave, with all respect, you should take a coffee break as you seem to be getting rather agitated.
i'm good. |
|
Solomanios
Exploration and Excavation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:34:01 -
[4271] - Quote
Did not read all 2000 pages of comments, generally ppl are against it, but I'm just curious how would it work:
I'm near 100M skill points, I would gladly sell some stupid skills that I do not take advantage of. Probably not buy any SP for this character.
But my alts:
Some have just barely over 5M skill points, so I should sell some skills out to get under 5M to get maximum benefit, right? When I start applying some possible new skills that I want for them (which is bought SP) will the return ratio change once I exceed 5M or will it stay as it was in time of purchase? This is definitely a easy way to make a hero from zero. Imagine pirate attacking one month old character who actually is +50M SP on PVP and skilled player.
Also this allows to avoid the need of training for your 2 'passive' characters that are on same account with your main character...
Please, if you do this, don't f__k it up.!
My .50ISK - yes and no
Cheers -Sol
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2240
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:35:02 -
[4272] - Quote
Dror wrote:afkalt wrote:General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote: Understood that people levelling their ravens/chasing PvE have horrible retention. Understood that you yourself are feeling pressured to buy these packs to "compete" (hello there Moby D) Understood that you can buy these with isk
Please stop putting words in my mouth. afkalt wrote: Yet somehow not understood that the blindingly obvious extension of that is people ratting to skill up with the end game of them quitting even faster because ratting is now tied to "progression".
It's all matter of choisies and person who choose. If people like something let him to do so. Doesn't matter for how long he playing, matter that he like it. So you HAVEN'T watched and understood the video YOU linked? Uh-huh. I guess we will have to agree to disagree since you seem to think making a change highly likely to increase newbro burnout is a good thing because it suits your selfish requirement of instant gratification. You're ascribing burnout to a very specific idea, and there's probably nothing to back that up?
Nothing, except the fanfest data. Which is....y'know...something. In fact all we have.
Today skills accrue at a linerar rate irrespective (setting implants aside) of a players activity, which is key to being such a fantastic sandbox - doesnt matter what I do, I never suffer.
This proposal means I can super-grind missions/rats/sleepers/incursions to "level" my character faster. Now I admit I'm assuming that this will create a positive reinforcement to "grind isk, acquire skills", but I really do not think that it is a huge leap - especially given the genre (MMOs...grind>receive bacon).
Except the eve PvE experience has pretty much always been a side show to the main event, players interacting with players. This is why people going down that path leave us and we are, in fact, trying to get a NPC that takes them AWAY from this route.
I do not think it is "chicken little" to suggest that with the ability to purchase skill packs, we have a very real risk of pushing people into the PvE treadmill and doubling down on this by giving them an SP "reward" every N sites.
Equally I do not think it is a stretch to suggest that this is probably not healthy for the game long term. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6855
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:40:24 -
[4273] - Quote
Solomanios wrote:Some have just barely over 5M skill points, so I should sell some skills out to get under 5M to get maximum benefit, right? You can't take out skillpoints if it will make you go below 5mil though, so no
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Dave Stark
7630
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:40:52 -
[4274] - Quote
considering after a month 50% of people quit, and 40% of them are "leveling their raven" would it really be so bad if grinding pve were used to "level up" by buying SP with their money? i mean, if 40% of people, which are 80% of the remaining players after 1 month are doing it - surely there's a market for that type of gameplay? they're still out in space, you can still go and mess with them. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:42:16 -
[4275] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:It's all matter of choisies and person who choose. If people like something let him to do so. Doesn't matter for how long he playing, matter that he like it. Thats so comically funny, Its like the story of the kid who went to the party not stopping for anything just heading for the ice cream and cakes. He ate so much he threw up and had to go before the fun and games started. Very apt for player retention and burnout Levi I officially declare that I'm runed out of arguments for you... until you enter this capcha and confirm that you are not a parrot.
P.S. Thanks afkalt for inspiring me. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2241
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:44:58 -
[4276] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:considering after a month 50% of people quit, and 40% of them are "leveling their raven" would it really be so bad if grinding pve were used to "level up" by buying SP with their money? i mean, if 40% of people, which are 80% of the remaining players after 1 month are doing it - surely there's a market for that type of gameplay? they're still out in space, you can still go and mess with them.
Depends, in the months of levelling their raven, they have a shot of getting scooped into a corp. Shortening that...might not be great.
Plus imagine the risk aversity it'll drive, I mean it's bad enough with isk being isk....but people will start doing isk:SP calculations mentally.
Stop the galaxy, I want out. |
Dave Stark
7630
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:47:13 -
[4277] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:considering after a month 50% of people quit, and 40% of them are "leveling their raven" would it really be so bad if grinding pve were used to "level up" by buying SP with their money? i mean, if 40% of people, which are 80% of the remaining players after 1 month are doing it - surely there's a market for that type of gameplay? they're still out in space, you can still go and mess with them. Depends, in the months of levelling their raven, they have a shot of getting scooped into a corp. Shortening that...might not be great. Plus imagine the risk aversity it'll drive, I mean it's bad enough with isk being isk....but people will start doing isk:SP calculations mentally. Stop the galaxy, I want out.
to be honest, corps are something that needs addressing too.
they need to offer players something more than a shared chat channel, especially for people residing in high sec. |
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:49:58 -
[4278] - Quote
afkalt wrote: you think people are pissed now when a ship they've skilled into is nerfed? Wait until they bought their way into it ?
Not empty quoting for truth and justice
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6855
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:50:39 -
[4279] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Depends, in the months of levelling their raven, they have a shot of getting scooped into a corp. Shortening that...might not be great.
Plus imagine the risk aversity it'll drive, I mean it's bad enough with isk being isk....but people will start doing isk:SP calculations mentally. No as we know the way to sp up now is to grab implants and then never undock. Actually just don't log in and update your queue and then when you run out of time just leave having hardly entered the game.
At least with this they won't lose what they've spent by getting exploded (ship) or podded (implant).
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:51:45 -
[4280] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: "Leveling your raven" is an achievement (even if a poor one) that at least keeps people around for a bit. "working 2 extra hours at McBurger joint to afford to buy the SP to level the raven to the point where it can do boring lvl 4 missions" is not an achievement lol, it's a recipe for quitting EVE.
Undocked bazaars toon also can achive it but does it contribute anything in the gameplay?
|
|
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
1045
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:53:07 -
[4281] - Quote
From Reddit:
Quote:Rather than fixing the stuff that is broken which makes the game less fun for new players, we're instead saying, "look, we know that this game is less fun for new players, but all you have to do is spend 3 plex and you can go back to having fun."
Couldn't have said it better myself. This is a cash grab from CCP which won't bring new players into the game because frankly it's a Clash of Clans gem mechanic disguised as being something else, since the SP comes from other people.
So basically it's gems which were paid for by other players and being paid for by you. And people are OK with this because the Character Bazaar is a thing (which is only a thing because otherwise the accounts would just be sold on eBay anyway)
Not today spaghetti.
|
Solomanios
Exploration and Excavation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:54:26 -
[4282] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Solomanios wrote:Some have just barely over 5M skill points, so I should sell some skills out to get under 5M to get maximum benefit, right? You can't take out skillpoints if it will make you go below 5mil though, so no
Maybe so, I should lose some SP by other means... :D
Cheers! -Sol
|
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:57:19 -
[4283] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:I'd also like to bring up that I strongly doubt alliances will suddenly fund skill injection for people on any meaningful scale. If they were willing to do this, we'd already have seen alliances bulk buying characters for their members.
Depends if T3s get a nerfbat, I can see SPRPs joining SRPs in big alliances. Also, they don't need to be handing out 50m SP chars to line members to have a use for TSPs, unwatchlisted cynoalts etc don't need that many SPs |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
201
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:57:20 -
[4284] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:considering after a month 50% of people quit, and 40% of them are "leveling their raven" would it really be so bad if grinding pve were used to "level up" by buying SP with their money? i mean, if 40% of people, which are 80% of the remaining players after 1 month are doing it - surely there's a market for that type of gameplay? they're still out in space, you can still go and mess with them.
Just give up and quit your job as an Eve Dev for coming up with this abominable idea. I'm losing all interest to log in anymore thanks to you. |
Dave Stark
7630
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:00:16 -
[4285] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Dave Stark wrote:considering after a month 50% of people quit, and 40% of them are "leveling their raven" would it really be so bad if grinding pve were used to "level up" by buying SP with their money? i mean, if 40% of people, which are 80% of the remaining players after 1 month are doing it - surely there's a market for that type of gameplay? they're still out in space, you can still go and mess with them. Just give up and quit your job as an Eve Dev for coming up with this abominable idea. I'm losing all interest to log in anymore thanks to you.
the door's got a closer on it, don't let it hit you on the way out. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
201
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:01:28 -
[4286] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Dave Stark wrote:considering after a month 50% of people quit, and 40% of them are "leveling their raven" would it really be so bad if grinding pve were used to "level up" by buying SP with their money? i mean, if 40% of people, which are 80% of the remaining players after 1 month are doing it - surely there's a market for that type of gameplay? they're still out in space, you can still go and mess with them. Just give up and quit your job as an Eve Dev for coming up with this abominable idea. I'm losing all interest to log in anymore thanks to you. the door's got a closer on it, don't let it hit you on the way out.
Refund me the money I've already paid you dickhead, and I'm out! |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:02:52 -
[4287] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dror wrote:afkalt wrote: Yet somehow not understood that the blindingly obvious extension of that is people ratting to skill up with the end game of them quitting even faster because ratting is now tied to "progression".
You're ascribing burnout to a very specific idea, and there's probably nothing to back that up? Nothing, except the fanfest data. Which is....y'know...something. In fact all we have. Today skills accrue at a linerar rate irrespective (setting implants aside) of a players activity, which is key to being such a fantastic sandbox - doesnt matter what I do, I never suffer. This proposal means I can super-grind missions/rats/sleepers/incursions to "level" my character faster. Now I admit I'm assuming that this will create a positive reinforcement to "grind isk, acquire skills", but I really do not think that it is a huge leap - especially given the genre (MMOs...grind>receive bacon). Except the eve PvE experience has pretty much always been a side show to the main event, players interacting with players. This is why people going down that path leave us and we are, in fact, trying to get a NPE that takes them AWAY from this route. Therefore I do not think it is "chicken little" to suggest that with the ability to purchase skill packs, we have a very real risk of pushing people into the PvE treadmill and doubling down on this by effectively giving them an SP "reward" every N sites. Equally I do not think it is a stretch to suggest that this is probably not healthy for the game long term. Except, there's more. Instead of giving you a bunch of videos to watch, how about I actually challenge your ideas, and we find out if you can actually support them?
You implying skills training linearly being magnificent is based on what? Nothing. If potential subs play other MMOs -- most of them probably check them out -- they find that their play is rewarded. That's a lot like reality. Maybe there are some scientific facts about what's motivating?
Then, you're simply saying that PvE is the reason they quit. Well, what else do they have to do in this sandbox game? They can't do industry without giving up their Raven leveling. They can't have reprocessing efficiency. The very limited gameplay style you're saying is the reason they're quitting is their only option because of SP. Would it make sense that, if they could explore marketing and refinement and production for reasons to log in, they would?
So, to what extent does that play? The game has that very limitation up through 10M+ SP. In fact, no character has maxed.
If you're interested in more, here are some posts about it: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6113882#post6113882 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6114175#post6114175 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6114729#post6114729
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:04:38 -
[4288] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: pidgeon
Levi are you did it agian or just loving birds so much? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
73
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:11:14 -
[4289] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: pidgeon
Levi are you did it agian or just loving birds so much?
Nah theyre just flying rats, mainly found crapping all over historic buildings and monuments or could that be a euphemism for what you want to do with eve. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6855
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:15:58 -
[4290] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: pidgeon
Levi are you did it agian or just loving birds so much? Nah theyre just flying rats, mainly found crapping all over historic buildings and monuments or could that be a euphemism for what you want to do with eve. Huh, so you don't like Jita riots then
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1798
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:17:49 -
[4291] - Quote
I feel very sorry for whichever ISD has to clean this thread up!
Back to the point:
CCP have released a proposal (or 'What they are going to do' depending on your belief). That proposal has been reviewed here and many players who actually access and play the game have pointed out that it is open to heavy abuse. They have also largely sad don't mess with a system that works, enhance other areas that don't.
I would suggest that CCP should address these concerns first before pressing ahead with any change because although it won't matter if those of us against it are wrong, it will matter hugely if we are correct. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:19:24 -
[4292] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: pidgeon
Levi are you did it agian or just loving birds so much? Nah theyre just flying rats, mainly found crapping all over historic buildings and monuments or could that be a euphemism for what you want to do with eve. Come on Levi. I belive that you are able to overstep your hate. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2248
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:19:34 -
[4293] - Quote
Dror wrote:afkalt wrote:Dror wrote:afkalt wrote: Yet somehow not understood that the blindingly obvious extension of that is people ratting to skill up with the end game of them quitting even faster because ratting is now tied to "progression".
You're ascribing burnout to a very specific idea, and there's probably nothing to back that up? Nothing, except the fanfest data. Which is....y'know...something. In fact all we have. Today skills accrue at a linerar rate irrespective (setting implants aside) of a players activity, which is key to being such a fantastic sandbox - doesnt matter what I do, I never suffer. This proposal means I can super-grind missions/rats/sleepers/incursions to "level" my character faster. Now I admit I'm assuming that this will create a positive reinforcement to "grind isk, acquire skills", but I really do not think that it is a huge leap - especially given the genre (MMOs...grind>receive bacon). Except the eve PvE experience has pretty much always been a side show to the main event, players interacting with players. This is why people going down that path leave us and we are, in fact, trying to get a NPE that takes them AWAY from this route. Therefore I do not think it is "chicken little" to suggest that with the ability to purchase skill packs, we have a very real risk of pushing people into the PvE treadmill and doubling down on this by effectively giving them an SP "reward" every N sites. Equally I do not think it is a stretch to suggest that this is probably not healthy for the game long term. Except, there's more. Instead of giving you a bunch of videos to watch, how about I actually challenge your ideas, and we find out if you can actually support them? You implying skills training linearly being magnificent is based on what? Nothing. If potential subs play other MMOs -- most of them probably check them out -- they find that their play is rewarded. That's a lot like reality. Maybe there are some scientific facts about what's motivating? Then, you're simply saying that PvE is the reason they quit. Well, what else do they have to do in this sandbox game? They can't do industry without giving up their Raven leveling. They can't have reprocessing efficiency. The very limited gameplay style you're saying is the reason they're quitting is their only option because of SP. Would it make sense that, if they could explore marketing and refinement and production for reasons to log in, they would? So, to what extent does that play? The game has that very limitation up through 10M+ SP. In fact, no character has maxed. If you're interested in more, here are some posts about it: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6113882#post6113882 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6114175#post6114175 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6114729#post6114729
I get it, you hate SP and you hate waiting. That's fine.
Time will tell if the concerns many, many have were valid. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:23:43 -
[4294] - Quote
afkalt wrote:I get it, you hate SP and you hate waiting. That's fine.
Time will tell if the concerns many, many have were valid. So, you can't support your ideas with anything more than some guesses? You refuse to respond to the real issue?
Then, why reply at all? If you can't support the idea of SP, that's just bias. There's no room in game design for that. If you find the idea of a company filling a game with microtransactions instead of increasing subs awful, what do you have to say about it?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Dave Stark
7632
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:27:30 -
[4295] - Quote
Dror wrote:afkalt wrote:I get it, you hate SP and you hate waiting. That's fine.
Time will tell if the concerns many, many have were valid. So, you can't support your ideas with anything more than some guesses? You refuse to respond to the real issue? Then, why reply at all? If you can't support the idea of SP, that's just bias. There's no room in game design for that. If you find the idea of a company filling a game with microtransactions instead of increasing subs awful, what do you have to say about it? a lot of the thread is guesses. the devblog left many variables unknown.
neither side of this argument can give many solid arguments without making a myriad of assumptions. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
73
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:28:02 -
[4296] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: pidgeon
Levi are you did it agian or just loving birds so much? Nah theyre just flying rats, mainly found crapping all over historic buildings and monuments or could that be a euphemism for what you want to do with eve. Come on Levi. I belive that you are able to overstep your hate. I refer you to Post you missed I have no hate, six of one - half dozen of the other. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6855
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:32:10 -
[4297] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:a lot of the thread is guesses. the devblog left many variables unknown.
neither side of this argument can give many solid arguments without making a myriad of assumptions. That means that all arguments of a particular type are so wrong~~
That's the fun of Forums Online. It's like an RNG loot roll
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:36:33 -
[4298] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Dror wrote:afkalt wrote:I get it, you hate SP and you hate waiting. That's fine.
Time will tell if the concerns many, many have were valid. So, you can't support your ideas with anything more than some guesses? You refuse to respond to the real issue? Then, why reply at all? If you can't support the idea of SP, that's just bias. There's no room in game design for that. If you find the idea of a company filling a game with microtransactions instead of increasing subs awful, what do you have to say about it? a lot of the thread is guesses. the devblog left many variables unknown. neither side of this argument can give many solid arguments without making a myriad of assumptions. There's established motivational science. If I say that SP limiting every aspect of the game from fresh subs is a negative without a relevant positive, there's a very clear response line that could follow.
If I say that maximizing reasons to log on is simple and logical, that reinforcing exploration and dynamism through options, variety, and depth is obviously interesting -- how cool is it if there's a lot more than just "simple and logical"? There's a lot of information on decisions and risk-reward. Feel free to ask questions.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1287
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:39:26 -
[4299] - Quote
I have removed some off-topic drivel and those replies quoting it.
Quote:27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2248
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:40:03 -
[4300] - Quote
Dror wrote:afkalt wrote:I get it, you hate SP and you hate waiting. That's fine.
Time will tell if the concerns many, many have were valid. So, you can't support your ideas with anything more than some guesses? You refuse to respond to the real issue? Then, why reply at all? If you can't support the idea of SP, that's just bias. There's no room in game design for that. If you find the idea of a company filling a game with microtransactions instead of increasing subs awful, what do you have to say about it?
Good gods man, you're dismissing fanfest data, over a decade of continued life with the swipe of a hand that "nothing" supports SP being a good mechanic.
And you expect me to engage? With what? How? You're ignoring both history and evidence laid out time and time again by CCP. PvE is NOT healthy for typical retention.
No, the track record of SP speaks for itself. The onus is on you to demonstrate why tearing it down/apart now is somehow a good idea and that the last 12 years have been...what? Fluke? Bloody mindedness on the part of the players? The foolishness of old men?
Tell me why you think people won't get trapped into grinding isk to level when they ALREADY get trapped today and it is divorced from levelling. If a PvE pathway is deemed unhealthy to retention, tying SP progression HOWEVER LOOSELY to it, it utterly insane.
But you can't see this, you're not long enough in the tooth and you're too bitter about perceived limits. All you seem to see is "the vets" trying to keep you young up and comers down with the stick of SP...it's quite the opposite. We want to keep the game where people stay, where people don't get caught popping red crosses to "level up".
Here's a fun fact, I have a pretty much perfect scanner alt, she has change out of 6m skill points. She can outscan every single one of my combat pilots who are years older. She can outscan most people in new eden, She's not even 6 months old. Keeping up with the vets? Don't make me laugh - unless you're one of the these lunatics who wants to fly a titan, you can "catch up" to and be on a level footing with most vets in under a year. You could surpass a great many in that time too, keeping to smaller ship sizes.
But no, you people want it all and you want it now and damn everyone else, why it's just not fair that it'll take 3 months to level up a pefect (and I mean perfect) FW toon. No, this is unreasonable and even with said perfect toon you still "cant compete" because.... :reasons:
So you'll forgive me for bowing out of the argument with you, because you don't want to debate, you can't meaningfully challenge the evidence we have at hand or the legacy of the past. It's like me telling you round wheels are awesome and no, we're not all mad and yes, the fact they've been employed for ages DOES mean they work and yes, those triangular numbers ARE pretty...but ultimately going to lead to some crushing disappointments in the months to come. |
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2248
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:43:28 -
[4301] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Dror wrote:afkalt wrote:I get it, you hate SP and you hate waiting. That's fine.
Time will tell if the concerns many, many have were valid. So, you can't support your ideas with anything more than some guesses? You refuse to respond to the real issue? Then, why reply at all? If you can't support the idea of SP, that's just bias. There's no room in game design for that. If you find the idea of a company filling a game with microtransactions instead of increasing subs awful, what do you have to say about it? a lot of the thread is guesses. the devblog left many variables unknown. neither side of this argument can give many solid arguments without making a myriad of assumptions.
I don't think my assumption is a stretch, however. I'm pretty sure you'd agree there will be an extremely high likelihood of people grinding PvE to "level up".
To not do so is rather against MMO precedent as well as human nature.
The unfortunate thing is that evidence available tells us this is a VeryBadThing, where this particular MMO is concerned. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:45:58 -
[4302] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dror wrote:afkalt wrote:I get it, you hate SP and you hate waiting. That's fine.
Time will tell if the concerns many, many have were valid. So, you can't support your ideas with anything more than some guesses? You refuse to respond to the real issue? Then, why reply at all? If you can't support the idea of SP, that's just bias. There's no room in game design for that. If you find the idea of a company filling a game with microtransactions instead of increasing subs awful, what do you have to say about it? Good gods man, you're dismissing fanfest data, over a decade of continued life with the swipe of a hand that "nothing" supports SP being a good mechanic. And you expect me to engage? With what? How? You're ignoring both history and evidence laid out time and time again by CCP. PvE is NOT healthy for typical retention. No, the track record of SP speaks for itself. The onus is on you to demonstrate why tearing it down/apart now is somehow a good idea and that the last 12 years have been...what? Fluke? Bloody mindedness on the part of the players? The foolishness of old men? Tell me why you think people won't get trapped into grinding isk to level when they ALREADY get trapped today and it is divorced from levelling. If a PvE pathway is deemed unhealthy to retention, tying SP progression HOWEVER LOOSELY to it, it utterly insane. But you can't see this, you're not long enough in the tooth and you're too bitter about perceived limits. All you seem to see is "the vets" trying to keep you young up and comers down with the stick of SP...it's quite the opposite. We want to keep the game where people stay, where people don't get caught popping red crosses to "level up". Here's a fun fact, I have a pretty much perfect scanner alt, she has change out of 6m skill points. She can outscan every single one of my combat pilots who are years older. She can outscan most people in new eden, She's not even 6 months old. Keeping up with the vets? Don't make me laugh - unless you're one of the these lunatics who wants to fly a titan, you can "catch up" to and be on a level footing with most vets in under a year. You could surpass a great many in that time too, keeping to smaller ship sizes. But no, you people want it all and you want it now and damn everyone else, why it's just not fair that it'll take 3 months to level up a pefect (and I mean perfect) FW toon. No, this is unreasonable and even with said perfect toon you still "cant compete" because.... :reasons: So you'll forgive me for bowing out of the argument with you, because you don't want to debate, you can't meaningfully challenge the evidence we have at hand or the legacy of the past. It's like me telling you round wheels are awesome and no, we're not all mad and yes, the fact they've been employed for ages DOES mean they work and yes, those triangular numbers ARE pretty...but ultimately going to lead to some crushing disappointments in the months to come. So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design?
Why have a progression mechanic at all? It's a sandbox game! Like, are you literally implying that keeping subs from playing the game is helpful?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Norian Lonark
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
157
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 16:12:48 -
[4303] - Quote
I dont really understand the argument for why this is needed.
As soon as you get SPs and can fit or get in another ship your skilling for something else. The goal is always moving you dont just do the exact same thing every day, so if you cant have fun with 10m SPs I dont see how your going to have fun with 50m SPs.
I dont care about other players SPs and I have always told new players not to worry... the idea that there is a massive gap between new players and vets is wrong and that they can have fun playing the game while they progres... I guess this line of thought is harder to have now as CCP are basically saying their game is no fun and you need x amount of SPs for fun to be viable... so here buy a SP injection.
This whole thing seems like a knee jerk response with ramifications that go against the core game design that havent been fully thought out. I really think this is going to deprive players of a good game experience and carving their own path, while being the start of an awful trend moving forward.
I know the character bazarr argument keeps coming up trying to say its the same, but its not the same... buying a character with a history and not customisable you are making a compromise, this you are customising exactly as you want for cash, its really is the greed is good philosphy all over again.
The main arguments I see for wanting this is I dont want to wait, I want to fly x now, why should I have to wait... and the putdowns for people who are not in favor of the idea is that the game needs to change to save it look at the numbers, no one enjoys it, no one wants to wait... I think this if implemented may give a short term boost but in the long run will see more players leave more quickly.
Start wide, expand further, and never look back
|
Pandora Bokks
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 16:15:12 -
[4304] - Quote
Smart move by CCP testing the ISK for SP waters in the guise of a Halloween event.
The standard accelerator gives you a total of 21,600 SP and sells at app. 150mln. Given it is a new thing and let us assume the price would go down to 1/3 or 50 mln then the market would value 1 SP with app. 2,300 ISK. A skill package of 500,000 SP would be worth app. 1 PLEX.
Which is again a smart move as trying to sell 25% faster training for 1 PLEX would be far less succesful than the proposed method.
I like the idea of selling SP even less now. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
73
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 16:22:20 -
[4305] - Quote
Dror wrote: So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design/
A game model like WoW is hardly a fail Dror, 12 mill active subs in its heyday of wrath grossing 300mill per annum even now a paltry 5.6 mill active subs. Im sure EvE would like even 33% percent of those active accounts running. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2252
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 16:28:04 -
[4306] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote: So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design/
A game model like WoW is hardly a fail Dror, 12 mill active subs in its heyday of wrath grossing 300mill per annum even now a paltry 5.6 mill active subs. Im sure EvE would like even 33% percent of those active accounts running.
WoW actually is an excellent counterpoint as it is designed from the ground up to facilitate PvE, with PvP being a back seat (lol arenas indeed). The entire ecosystem is designed to facilitate the grind.
Eve is not, never has been.
Trying to make it so is like taking a square peg, carving it into a crude circle then jamming it back into the square hole. Certainly it might fit, but you lose a lot in the process. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 16:33:21 -
[4307] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote: So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design/
A game model like WoW is hardly a fail Dror, 12 mill active subs in its heyday of wrath grossing 300mill per annum even now a paltry 5.6 mill active subs. Im sure EvE would like even 33% percent of those active accounts running. Maybe it was so successful because players saw that their progress depending from theirs actions in the game but not from subbing time. |
Jared Khanar
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 16:36:09 -
[4308] - Quote
Dror wrote: Why have a progression mechanic at all? It's a sandbox game! Like, are you literally implying that keeping subs from playing the game is helpful?
I know. Wrote i-¦m out of here, but i can-¦t help myself :)
Ok, let-¦s strip sp progression from the game. What-¦s left then? Eve is a calculation based game. Look at the current way it get-¦s played. Drop more people / alts, doctrine fits, a.s.o. If we are able to fly anything with any possible fitting and all players have identical values @ dps, hp, ecm and whatsoever what does this mean for our gameplay if the mechanics are the same as they are now? There are... some people complaining about the boring mechanics, they won-¦t change. And eve players try to do the things they do, the most efficient way.
Isn-¦t it possible that the diversity of activly used ingame activities get-¦s reduced due to this?For example: If everyone can produce everything like all others. This would be the death for the ingame economy. Whom would you sell your products, how are you going to make isk instead of fw? who would be your customer? At some point - why buy plex with rl money and sell it to the market?
Imo eves ingame economy , the markets, the professions, the specialisations... everything needs to be as fractured as possible. Without the need to specialise, without the pressure to develop into a specific playstyle / isk-grind, without the inaccessibility between the specialisations because of time and / or sp ... the transfer of assets, isk, services will be hit hard - partially it will be less and less necessary.
This leads me to the conclussion that competition in the remaining, profitable areas will increase. Increasing competition - say bye bye to your profits :D
Imo. this is already the case in slighter form right now, but even allowing sp transfers will only strengthen this effect. We allready have oversupply for years now.
EDIT: I-¦m not against deleting or changing sp mechanics - but the question is: "does this make sense?" |
Norian Lonark
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
162
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 16:40:25 -
[4309] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote: So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design/
A game model like WoW is hardly a fail Dror, 12 mill active subs in its heyday of wrath grossing 300mill per annum even now a paltry 5.6 mill active subs. Im sure EvE would like even 33% percent of those active accounts running. Maybe it was so successful because players saw that their progress depending from theirs actions in the game but not from subbing time.
In wow new expansion comes out.. someone plays for a couple of days rushing to get to latest level uses up all the content.... gets board... then waits for the next expansion.. moaning about the lack of content and end game.
I cant even believe this is being used to make a point and shows what this kind of thinking leads too. You cannot compare wow to eve. They are both successful in their own right for very different things and attract people looking for different things in a game.
Is this what we want EVE to be? Yes lets do it lets get EVE to appeal to the type of people who play WOW by turning it into a WOW clone that will work.
Start wide, expand further, and never look back
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
73
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 16:45:40 -
[4310] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote: So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design/
A game model like WoW is hardly a fail Dror, 12 mill active subs in its heyday of wrath grossing 300mill per annum even now a paltry 5.6 mill active subs. Im sure EvE would like even 33% percent of those active accounts running. Maybe it was so successful because players saw that their progress depending from theirs actions in the game but not from subbing time.
You know what happened with wow, late into wrath they introduced ilvl its caused problems - cata / very poor exp hardly any content and nothing for pvp / major grind / slight skill tree altering
Pandaland - dailys boredom / no content / lacking decent raids / total destruction of the skill system and more fluff no lore.
WoD - mini games - shop - crap content - ever playing with balancing - oh yeah instance level 90 ..... any of this sounding familiar yet. |
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
23
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 16:50:38 -
[4311] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote: So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design/
A game model like WoW is hardly a fail Dror, 12 mill active subs in its heyday of wrath grossing 300mill per annum even now a paltry 5.6 mill active subs. Im sure EvE would like even 33% percent of those active accounts running. It's not the same argument.. is the problem with this. Nothing's saying that WoW is a failure -- but it has a lot for criticism, and it is losing its status quo very effectively.
To reiterate the point, then, what about MOBAs? The best design philosophy is still very based in motivation, so for a contrast: are MOBAs, replaying the same map and farming the same creeps as the gameplay experience, the crux of gaming? Yet, they have some of the best PCUs on the market. So, what of this discussion remains? ..Having something to do? ..Being competitive without paying lots of money?
If there's the idea that SP is helpful, that's mostly about it being rewarding? How ludicrous -- any benefit from gaining something through SP is negated by its original limitations. No accurate description of that feeling ascribes SP to why it's great getting ships and relevance in an MMO. Nothing features SP for an advertisement -- subs come to play the game. Even more, it's validity as a game mechanic is obviously being challenged with the idea of a redesign. The best option is cutting losses for a system that provides much less than it limits, if depth of gameplay and freedom is of any benefit (protip: with motivation and decision theory, they are key).
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Dave Stark
7633
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 17:03:59 -
[4312] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Dror wrote:afkalt wrote:I get it, you hate SP and you hate waiting. That's fine.
Time will tell if the concerns many, many have were valid. So, you can't support your ideas with anything more than some guesses? You refuse to respond to the real issue? Then, why reply at all? If you can't support the idea of SP, that's just bias. There's no room in game design for that. If you find the idea of a company filling a game with microtransactions instead of increasing subs awful, what do you have to say about it? a lot of the thread is guesses. the devblog left many variables unknown. neither side of this argument can give many solid arguments without making a myriad of assumptions. I don't think my assumption is a stretch, however. I'm pretty sure you'd agree there will be an extremely high likelihood of people grinding PvE to "level up". To not do so is rather against MMO precedent as well as human nature. The unfortunate thing is that evidence available tells us this is a VeryBadThing, where this particular MMO is concerned.
no, many of the assumptions are reasonable.
yes, i agree many people would be grinding pve to level up. however as i pointed out, 80% of the people who didn't leave within the first month (if i remember the stats correctly) are grinding pve anyway - would it be so bad to make that activity have a little more meaning? it's better them sitting in a station scared to undock because "mah +5s".
this very very bad thing is what most people are doing most of the time. i know that i spend more time "grinding isk" than not grinding it. pretty much anything that isn't pvp is grinding isk - and a lot of pvping is just shooting people who are grinding isk.
no, i don't think "grind for SP" is a great idea - but there's certainly a market for it i feel. obviously there's a huge conflict here. tap in to that potential market, or don't.
i think eve would survive without this coming to pass - but would it really be so bad to attract more players to eve? let's face it, i doubt many people are doing now, what they intended to do when they started eve. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 17:06:38 -
[4313] - Quote
Norian Lonark wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote: So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design/
A game model like WoW is hardly a fail Dror, 12 mill active subs in its heyday of wrath grossing 300mill per annum even now a paltry 5.6 mill active subs. Im sure EvE would like even 33% percent of those active accounts running. Maybe it was so successful because players saw that their progress depending from theirs actions in the game but not from subbing time. In wow new expansion comes out.. someone plays for a couple of days rushing to get to latest level uses up all the content.... gets board... then waits for the next expansion.. moaning about the lack of content and end game. I cant even believe this is being used to make a point and shows what this kind of thinking leads too. You cannot compare wow to eve. They are both successful in their own right for very different things and attract people looking for different things in a game. Is this what we want EVE to be? Yes lets do it lets get EVE to appeal to the type of people who play WOW by turning it into a WOW clone that will work. I agree that it's very rough comparison. But I'm still sure that yours in-game actions are matter and progression must be depending on them in every term.
|
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
232
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 17:07:31 -
[4314] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote: So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design/
A game model like WoW is hardly a fail Dror, 12 mill active subs in its heyday of wrath grossing 300mill per annum even now a paltry 5.6 mill active subs. Im sure EvE would like even 33% percent of those active accounts running. It's not the same argument.. is the problem with this. Nothing's saying that WoW is a failure -- but it has a lot for criticism, and it is losing its status quo very effectively. To reiterate the point, then, what about MOBAs? The best design philosophy is still very based in motivation, so for a contrast: are MOBAs, replaying the same map and farming the same creeps as the gameplay experience, the crux of gaming? Yet, they have some of the best PCUs on the market. So, what of this discussion remains? ..Having something to do? ..Being competitive without paying lots of money? If there's the idea that SP is helpful, that's mostly about it being rewarding? How ludicrous -- any benefit from gaining something through SP is negated by its original limitations. No accurate description of that feeling ascribes SP to why it's great getting ships and relevance in an MMO. Nothing features SP for an advertisement -- subs come to play the game. Even more, it's validity as a game mechanic is obviously being challenged with the idea of a redesign. The best option is cutting losses for a system that provides much less than it limits, if depth of gameplay and freedom are of any benefit (protip: with motivation and decision theory, they are key).
30 mins and your done a moba. win or lose. In a moba I don't care if I go 2-33-2 in a game it doesn't cost me anything. Losing that mean ships cost me isk and the time to get another ship moba (at high level) i just go get a snack and come back almost re spawned. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 17:18:44 -
[4315] - Quote
Who knows why griding is so popular? Because most of the players are thinking that it's most profitable thing and who aren't think that way are called pirates, thieves and scums. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2254
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 17:20:25 -
[4316] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Who knows why griding is so popular? Because most of the players are thinking that it's most profitable thing and who aren't think that way are called pirates, thieves and scums.
You can do better than that, come on. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 17:21:48 -
[4317] - Quote
afkalt wrote:General Lootit wrote:Who knows why griding is so popular? Because most of the players are thinking that it's most profitable thing and who aren't think that way are called pirates, thieves and scums. You can do better than that, come on. Only after you. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 17:24:13 -
[4318] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Dror wrote: Why have a progression mechanic at all? It's a sandbox game! Like, are you literally implying that keeping subs from playing the game is helpful?
I know. Wrote i-¦m out of here, but i can-¦t help myself :) Ok, let-¦s strip sp progression from the game. What-¦s left then? Eve is a calculation based game. Look at the current way it get-¦s played. Drop more people / alts, doctrine fits, a.s.o. If we are able to fly anything with any possible fitting and all players have identical values @ dps, hp, ecm and whatsoever what does this mean for our gameplay if the mechanics are the same as they are now? There are... some people complaining about the boring mechanics, they won-¦t change. And eve players try to do the things they do, the most efficient way. Isn-¦t it possible that the diversity of activly used ingame activities get-¦s reduced due to this?For example: If everyone can produce everything like all others. This would be the death for the ingame economy. Whom would you sell your products, how are you going to make isk instead of fw? who would be your customer? At some point - why buy plex with rl money and sell it to the market? Imo eves ingame economy , the markets, the professions, the specialisations... everything needs to be as fractured as possible. Without the need to specialise, without the pressure to develop into a specific playstyle / isk-grind, without the inaccessibility between the specialisations because of time and / or sp ... the transfer of assets, isk, services will be hit hard - partially it will be less and less necessary. This leads me to the conclussion that competition in the remaining, profitable areas will increase. Increasing competition - say bye bye to your profits :D Imo. this is already the case in slighter form right now, but even allowing sp transfers will only strengthen this effect. We allready have oversupply for years now. EDIT: I-¦m not against deleting or changing sp mechanics - but the question is: "does this make sense?" The example about MOBAs is relevant here. Established motivation science lists competence (mastery), relatedness (competitiveness and socialization), and autonomy (freedom of choice and depth) as principal. A sandbox game supports these really well. Apparently, the level of skillfulness that a game supports is less relevant than the option of being the best -- it's great competing over roles and "top scores". So, it's on SP to prove itself, and there's no obvious way it can. The game relies on very non-PvP methods of making ISK (for countering exploitation), so the idea that PvP should somehow sustain gameplay interest is unfeasible. Thus, limiting the other playstyles (as a design philosophy) is completely counter-productive.
What's neat about "a sandbox" and "emergent gameplay" is that if a niche is saturated, there are plenty more -- if a station is full, there are lots for filling and flipping. More stocked stations is less travel between refitting. There are demographics of interest, so unless it seems plausible that every character would just farm, then there's enough demand from all that are uninterested in industry and the inactive playstyle of mining. Just logging on and getting some action (or exploring) is a trend that's criticized as shallow, but it's great for business (and a lot of demographics enjoy it).
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
452
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 17:27:22 -
[4319] - Quote
Said this on slack and would like to post it here for all the people saying this is no different from character bazaar.
Character bazaar is bad for the game. There is a reason why it was removed. It was also brought back because people would still trade characters using illicit means which also resulted in many other security problems like account hacking etc.
Think of it as a bad drug. They decriminalized it because keeping it illegal did not stop people from using it and led to many other problems. What they are proposing is that now we efine the drug into a much more addictive form and push it to the mainstream, advertise it to the public and put up billboards outside our schools for kids to try it. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2255
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 17:27:36 -
[4320] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote:General Lootit wrote:Who knows why griding is so popular? Because most of the players are thinking that it's most profitable thing and who aren't think that way are called pirates, thieves and scums. You can do better than that, come on. Only after you.
People who dont think like you are "pirates, thieves and scums".
Good grief, you'd think this is C&P and I had a CODE affiliation! |
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 17:38:25 -
[4321] - Quote
afkalt wrote:General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote:General Lootit wrote:Who knows why griding is so popular? Because most of the players are thinking that it's most profitable thing and who aren't think that way are called pirates, thieves and scums. You can do better than that, come on. Only after you. People who dont think like you are "pirates, thieves and scums". Good grief, you'd think this is C&P and I had a CODE affiliation! If you want to take away players from griding to PvP field than it must be more profitble than thing what they already do. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2255
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 17:41:16 -
[4322] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote:General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote:General Lootit wrote:Who knows why griding is so popular? Because most of the players are thinking that it's most profitable thing and who aren't think that way are called pirates, thieves and scums. You can do better than that, come on. Only after you. People who dont think like you are "pirates, thieves and scums". Good grief, you'd think this is C&P and I had a CODE affiliation! If you want to take away players from griding to PvP field than it must be more profitble than thing what they already do.
Or, you know, more fun. Which is it.
We don't play the same game, you and I.
Shouldn't you be off somewhere crying about being ganked? |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
426
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 17:42:22 -
[4323] - Quote
Dror wrote: So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design?
Why have a progression mechanic at all? It's a sandbox game! Like, are you literally implying that keeping subs from playing the game is helpful?
Have you heard of Counter-Strike, the worst FPS ever. I mean in terms of game-design.
1) You play in rounds of less than 5 minutes, always starting at the same position and roughly doing the same thing over and over again.
2) You can easily die without any chance of fighting back. A headshot and you're dead.
3) When you died, you have nothing left to do for up to 5 minutes. There's no respawning during rounds.
4) The winning team gets more money to get better weapons, helping them to win the next round too.
So, game-design says "mmm bad 'kay".
The market says "decades worth of fun": Counter-Strike Counter-Strike: Source Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
What I'm getting at is that what is punitive to some, is challenging to others. Is the SP system good ? No, it definitely has shortcomings. But you can't just change what has become a staple of the game if you have no clue how it affects gameplay.
The SP system isn't as much a progression system. It's closer to a research tree (tech-tree) as known from strategy games.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
426
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 17:45:44 -
[4324] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote: Think of it as a bad drug. They decriminalized it because keeping it illegal did not stop people from using it and led to many other problems. What they are proposing is that now we efine the drug into a much more addictive form and push it to the mainstream, advertise it to the public and put up billboards outside our schools for kids to try it.
CCP Breaking Bad ? ... we're all gonna die.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Dave Stark
7634
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 17:48:07 -
[4325] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Or, you know, more fun. Which is it.
We don't play the same game, you and I.
Shouldn't you be off somewhere crying about being ganked?
yeah the actual pvp is but jesus christ... how many hoops do you have to jump through to find some?
i mostly pvp in npsi fleets but jeez, 2 hours to form up and find a fight... 2hrs is a large chunk of most people's play time. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2256
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 17:51:29 -
[4326] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Or, you know, more fun. Which is it.
We don't play the same game, you and I.
Shouldn't you be off somewhere crying about being ganked? yeah the actual pvp is but jesus christ... how many hoops do you have to jump through to find some? i mostly pvp in npsi fleets but jeez, 2 hours to form up and find a fight... 2hrs is a large chunk of most people's play time.
Yeah, you'll get no disagreement from me there. But that's in large part a population density problem.
That said, there are hotzones, it's a case of not being able to handle the heat when the natives wake up for us (most?) |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 17:53:44 -
[4327] - Quote
afkalt wrote: Or, you know, more fun. Which is it.
We don't play the same game, you and I.
Yes it's fun but you also need to cover the loss and be able to pay for PLEX.
afkalt wrote: Shouldn't you be off somewhere crying about being ganked?
Something is never changing. |
Jared Khanar
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 18:01:31 -
[4328] - Quote
Dror wrote:The example about MOBAs is relevant here. Established motivation science lists competence (mastery), relatedness (competitiveness and socialization), and autonomy (freedom of choice and depth) as principal. A sandbox game supports these really well. Apparently, the level of skillfulness that a game supports is less relevant than the option of being the best -- it's great competing over roles and "top scores". So, it's on SP to prove itself, and there's no obvious way it can. The game relies on very non-PvP methods of making ISK (for countering exploitation), so the idea that PvP should somehow sustain gameplay interest is unfeasible. Thus, limiting the other playstyles (as a design philosophy) is completely counter-productive. What's neat about "a sandbox" and "emergent gameplay" is that if a niche is saturated, there are plenty more -- if a station is full, there are lots for filling and flipping. More stocked stations is less travel between refitting. There are demographics of interest, so unless it seems plausible that every character would just farm, then there's enough demand from all that are uninterested in industry and the inactive playstyle of mining. Just logging on and getting some action (or exploring) is a trend that's criticized as shallow, but it's great for business (and a lot of demographics enjoy it).
Good point - jump into the ship - have fun. Markets would adapt - supply and demand gets an overhaul. Although eve needs more modification to support this on the long run. Are the pvp mechanics enough to attract them for years to come? Atm they would also rely heavily on plex to fund their assets / or get integrated in a big corp / alliance. Additional costs if the possibility to "work around" the sp system is isk / aurum based. A complete sp system overhaul might then be the better way to go. The connection of the abillity to play in a specific manner to extra income, remains still as problematic in my eyes. |
Dave Stark
7634
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 18:01:37 -
[4329] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Or, you know, more fun. Which is it.
We don't play the same game, you and I.
Shouldn't you be off somewhere crying about being ganked? yeah the actual pvp is but jesus christ... how many hoops do you have to jump through to find some? i mostly pvp in npsi fleets but jeez, 2 hours to form up and find a fight... 2hrs is a large chunk of most people's play time. Yeah, you'll get no disagreement from me there. But that's in large part a population density problem. That said, there are hotzones, it's a case of not being able to handle the heat when the natives wake up for us (most?)
so we need more people, will this change bring them in? |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2256
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 18:14:40 -
[4330] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Or, you know, more fun. Which is it.
We don't play the same game, you and I.
Shouldn't you be off somewhere crying about being ganked? yeah the actual pvp is but jesus christ... how many hoops do you have to jump through to find some? i mostly pvp in npsi fleets but jeez, 2 hours to form up and find a fight... 2hrs is a large chunk of most people's play time. Yeah, you'll get no disagreement from me there. But that's in large part a population density problem. That said, there are hotzones, it's a case of not being able to handle the heat when the natives wake up for us (most?) so we need more people, will this change bring them in?
Realistically? Probably, insofar as it will get them engaged. I doubt, however, it will help retention. I would anticipate the reverse.
Still, I suppose if we throw enough newbies into the grinder, some might stick right, so we could argue it is playing percentages.
But on the other hand you've the reality of the poster a few lines back - already power grinding for isk for ships, for isk for plex. Adding the pressure of grinding for SP on top of that...my gut feel says it is a bad move. Too much pressure (which people already say they feel) to skill up, another substantial cost to support for a player.
It will feel pay to win to a newbro, I think. Can't make enough isk to support all this, have to sell plex. But hey, those games are pretty big now so maybe those players will stay and throw money at it, but it would change the face of the game forever. |
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
427
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 18:15:27 -
[4331] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote: So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design/
A game model like WoW is hardly a fail Dror, 12 mill active subs in its heyday of wrath grossing 300mill per annum even now a paltry 5.6 mill active subs. Im sure EvE would like even 33% percent of those active accounts running. Maybe it was so successful because players saw that their progress depending from theirs actions in the game but not from subbing time.
... and likewise, EvE allowed equal SP progression to those with limited time to play. A week worth of SP, is a week worth for everyone.
Of course CCP had to make the system vastly convoluted with locked base attributes, learning skills and attribute modifying implants. But apart from that ... it worked.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
262
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 18:19:44 -
[4332] - Quote
Ok. Instead of the car crash of an idea being proposed, I suggest this much better idea.
We use cerebral enhancers which can ideally be found in game (or if CCP really need the revenue stream bought for Aurum).
Proposal
Cerebral enhancers come in the 2 variations below:
Standard Enhancer increases SP gain by 100% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/8 Plex (150m)
Advanced Enhancer increases SP gain by 150% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/4 Plex (300m)
The effect of the enhancer is modified based upon the SP total of the character it is used upon.
0 GÇô 10 million skillpoints = 100% effect (150% increased training speed - 6750 SP hour max - with advanced enhancer) 10 - 25 million skillpoints = 75% effect (112.5% increased training speed - 5737.5 SP hour max - with advanced enhancer) 25 - 50 million skillpoints = 50% effect (75% increased training speed - 4725 SP hour max - with advanced enhancer) 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 25% effect (37.5% increased training speed - 3712.5 SP hour max - with advanced enhancer) 80 + million skillpoints = 20% effect (30% increased training speed - 3510 SP hour max - with advanced enhancer)
Under the numbers given the standard enhancer (which is the best value for money / ISK) would be equivalent in terms of value to dual character training for a character between 25m - 50m skill points. Over 50m and this benefit is halved, and under 25m and the benefit is up to double to help newer players.
Benefits
- Would allow newer players who wish to grind or pay for these enhancers the possibility to do so, without them being completely overpriced due to the diminishing returns. (5x more effective for a character under 10mil SP)
- Is heavily weighted in favour of the new player, although still pretty useful for a character of any skill level.
- It won't be as powerful a tool as instantly being able to skill up using unallocated SP would have been; this therefore removes a lot of the opportunities for meta gaming and exploits.
- Won't lead to the abomination which would be be SP farms, and won't allow highly skilled characters to profiteer by selling their SP to newbies.
- Doesn't remove consequences for the skill training path you chose (you chose to be a miner, sorry you can't instantly allocate all the SP into combat, actions have consequences)
I can't really see any negative to this apart from the fact it is introducing a grind for SP particularly for new players, but it seems this might be what they want and will keep them subbed.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
|
Dave Stark
7634
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 18:21:30 -
[4333] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Or, you know, more fun. Which is it.
We don't play the same game, you and I.
Shouldn't you be off somewhere crying about being ganked? yeah the actual pvp is but jesus christ... how many hoops do you have to jump through to find some? i mostly pvp in npsi fleets but jeez, 2 hours to form up and find a fight... 2hrs is a large chunk of most people's play time. Yeah, you'll get no disagreement from me there. But that's in large part a population density problem. That said, there are hotzones, it's a case of not being able to handle the heat when the natives wake up for us (most?) so we need more people, will this change bring them in? Realistically? Probably, insofar as it will get them engaged. I doubt, however, it will help retention. I would anticipate the reverse. Still, I suppose if we throw enough newbies into the grinder, some might stick right, so we could argue it is playing percentages. But on the other hand you've the reality of the poster a few lines back - already power grinding for isk for ships, for isk for plex. Adding the pressure of grinding for SP on top of that...my gut feel says it is a bad move. Too much pressure (which people already say they feel) to skill up, another substantial cost to support for a player. It will feel pay to win to a newbro, I think. Can't make enough isk to support all this, have to sell plex. But hey, those games are pretty big now so maybe those players will stay and throw money at it, but it would change the face of the game forever.
keeping them is the first step. can't get some one engaged if they're not playing.
indeed, churn enough through the grinder and we might get a few stick.
you only have to get them past the "initial" grind. when i first started playing i often logged in, saw i had a few days on a skill left, logged out and played some halo or something. these days? not so much, i barely look at my skill queue. i think once you get past that initial hump of feeling limited by your skills (can't even fill all the slots because you haven't finished training AWU V or something). i remember grinding for plex, because i felt that if i was "playing for free" that i didn't mind waiting for skills. if we had TSPs i'd have spent my isk on them instead. that's just me though.
indeed, micro transactions are all the rage now. Most things change the face of the game forever. look at jump fatigue - think we'll ever see another asakai or b-r with that in the game? many people don't. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 18:24:16 -
[4334] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote: So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design/
A game model like WoW is hardly a fail Dror, 12 mill active subs in its heyday of wrath grossing 300mill per annum even now a paltry 5.6 mill active subs. Im sure EvE would like even 33% percent of those active accounts running. Maybe it was so successful because players saw that their progress depending from theirs actions in the game but not from subbing time. ... and likewise, EvE allowed equal SP progression to those with limited time to play. A week worth of SP, is a week worth for everyone. Good point here. That man must be so busy because he earning some money so if he feel that he need more SP but have no time to play than he could pay for it. You also need to consider that free passive gaining SP is still here. Play Or Pay but only if you want to outcompete someone |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 18:27:59 -
[4335] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Dror wrote:The example about MOBAs is relevant here. Established motivation science lists competence (mastery), relatedness (competitiveness and socialization), and autonomy (freedom of choice and depth) as principal. A sandbox game supports these really well. Apparently, the level of skillfulness that a game supports is less relevant than the option of being the best -- it's great competing over roles and "top scores". So, it's on SP to prove itself, and there's no obvious way it can. The game relies on very non-PvP methods of making ISK (for countering exploitation), so the idea that PvP should somehow sustain gameplay interest is unfeasible. Thus, limiting the other playstyles (as a design philosophy) is completely counter-productive. What's neat about "a sandbox" and "emergent gameplay" is that if a niche is saturated, there are plenty more -- if a station is full, there are lots for filling and flipping. More stocked stations is less travel between refitting. There are demographics of interest, so unless it seems plausible that every character would just farm, then there's enough demand from all that are uninterested in industry and the inactive playstyle of mining. Just logging on and getting some action (or exploring) is a trend that's criticized as shallow, but it's great for business (and a lot of demographics enjoy it). Good point - jump into the ship - have fun. Markets would adapt - supply and demand gets an overhaul. Although eve needs more modification to support this on the long run. Are the pvp mechanics enough to attract them for years to come? Atm they would also rely heavily on plex to fund their assets / or get integrated in a big corp / alliance. Additional costs if the possibility to "work around" the sp system is isk / aurum based. A complete sp system overhaul might then be the better way to go. The connection of the abillity to play in a specific manner to extra income, remains still as problematic in my eyes. The idea of income problems is sorta unfounded. There are incursions, null with ratting and anomalies, and just playing the market. Furthermore, there's such depth for how production and invention are supplied. Yet, this is all no real mention of politics and further strategy. Sov has resources, and starter corps and their referrals being effective is an excellent challenge.
Jill Xelitras wrote:Dror wrote: So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design?
Why have a progression mechanic at all? It's a sandbox game! Like, are you literally implying that keeping subs from playing the game is helpful?
Have you heard of Counter-Strike, the worst FPS ever. I mean in terms of game-design. 1) You play in rounds of less than 5 minutes, always starting at the same position and roughly doing the same thing over and over again. 2) You can easily die without any chance of fighting back. A headshot and you're dead. 3) When you died, you have nothing left to do for up to 5 minutes. There's no respawning during rounds. 4) The winning team gets more money to get better weapons, helping them to win the next round too. So, game-design says "mmm bad 'kay". The market says "decades worth of fun": Counter-Strike Counter-Strike: Source Counter-Strike: Global Offensive What I'm getting at is that what is punitive to some, is challenging to others. Is the SP system good ? No, it definitely has shortcomings. But you can't just change what has become a staple of the game if you have no clue how it affects gameplay. The SP system isn't as much a progression system. It's closer to a research tree (tech-tree) as known from strategy games. Yet, there's a really simple explanation why it's deemed fun. "Buttons are so simple. How intriguing it is that games seem entertaining." ..That's irrelevant reduction, and it's a strawman. Science finds FPS games as improving attention allocation, spatial resolution in visual processing, and mental rotation abilities. Gaming with strategy and positioning actually improves skillfulness, where puzzle-type games provide nothing of the listed qualities. EVE features a very similar playstyle.
So, calling out SP as detrimental to having stuff to do is based. "There seems to be evidence that playing games enhances problem-solving skills and improves creativity," but that's playing a game.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 18:32:22 -
[4336] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:Said this on slack and would like to post it here for all the people saying this is no different from character bazaar.
Character bazaar is bad for the game. There is a reason why it was removed. It was also brought back because people would still trade characters using illicit means which also resulted in many other security problems like account hacking etc.
Think of it as a bad drug. They decriminalized it because keeping it illegal did not stop people from using it and led to many other problems. What they are proposing is that now we efine the drug into a much more addictive form and push it to the mainstream, advertise it to the public and put up billboards outside our schools for kids to try it. Time to funny thing. EVE forum was blocked in my country because of boosters(drugs) discussion on it. |
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 18:56:02 -
[4337] - Quote
So I see a lot of people opposing the idea, which is natural, people rarely welcome new ideas, which leads me to analyze: Are those concerns real?
Concern 1:
> "I'd buy 50 or so >5 mil SP chars for the bonus sp"
Would you really? Spend $2000 dollars in PLEX for the transfers alone, plus hundreds of billions of ISK on the bazaar, plus whatever it costs for the SP transfer token, just so you can rapidly emass 2.5m more SP? Something you can get in less than two months.
Lets be real, no you wouldn't. And even if you are rotting rich and think its a remotely viable investment, you are one in a million. Such behaviour wouldn't become a game breaking practice, and besides, throwing ISK at the problem has always been a way to win at EVE, nothing new there. So lets think things through and not entertain scenarios that won't happen.
Concern 2:
If you have a character with decent skill points, I'm sure you are having a great time right now, roaming lowsec seal clubbing people who can't even fit a T2 MWD, and I understand that the idea that this people might catch up with you "easily" may sound unconfortable, but again, lets be rational. Do you think those noobs roaming lowsec in T1 frigates have the ISK to effort it? I'll leave the answer to your common sense. As about people buying PLEX to get fast ISK, just keep reading.
Concern 3:
> "This basically introduces the ability to buy any skill with real life cash."
Its already possible. Have you been to the character bazaar? Toons fully trained for all and every activity you might want to try. Everything someone willing to spend ludicrous amounts of cash on a Internet spaceships game need is there. Gotta catch them all.
The only difference is that you won't have a name and a face coming together, because its the same thing in a different package.
Concern 4:
> "the potential for abuse is staggering"
The only abuse I can think of, is SP theft. But we already have that covered, as the EULA makes clear, account sharing is forbidden. SP is not the only thing you can be ripped off if you share your account anyway.
Concern 5:
> "CCP is trying to get more money"
Maybe they are (which by itself shouldn't be seen as a problem, what are you, 10?), but right now, character transfers already give them that. You have to pay two PLEX to perform a transfer, which is basically a tax for a service that has to be assisted manually by a technician. With the end of the character bazaar, this will actually stop. The proposal was not specific about how you get the SP transfer token, but since it won't require manual assistance there is no reason for it to cost a lot.
All that considered, I thought the idea was very interesting, and sure, if implemented, I will probably use it to speed up my training. Training queues are so frustrating, there are still so many ships I can't fly, so many weapon systems I'm far from mastering, and such a long training queue. Its extremely frustrating that all I can do about it is wait, and wait, for months to come.
I have the ISK to go to the bazaar and buy some toon that can fly all the stuff I want, but I've been Havenard for two decades now, and I won't give up on my name just so I can have a character that can sit on a carrier. I freakin rather wait.
So you see, the problem is not that I can't have a character with a large amount of SP, the problem is that I want my character with a large amount of SP. Thats the single only detail this system is targetting to solve. |
Chainsaw Plankton
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
1935
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 18:57:24 -
[4338] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: Rent 3 billion
Right scum as were looking after you your also going to have to stump up 5 mill TSP a month < Extortion but still legal in EvE its a commodity now so as such not covered by anti scam
Now that is an interesting thought, the character bazaar Is protected and monitored. Are you saying that this is so safe that it has no need of that? Anybody see any safety issues if it is NOT the same as the bazaar? Or are we all trustworthy enough that such safeties are not needed? m the safety feature is that you can just go and buy SP from the market. imo the safety is you can tell them to **** off!
@ChainsawPlankto
|
Dave Stark
7634
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 19:00:55 -
[4339] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: Rent 3 billion
Right scum as were looking after you your also going to have to stump up 5 mill TSP a month < Extortion but still legal in EvE its a commodity now so as such not covered by anti scam
Now that is an interesting thought, the character bazaar Is protected and monitored. Are you saying that this is so safe that it has no need of that? Anybody see any safety issues if it is NOT the same as the bazaar? Or are we all trustworthy enough that such safeties are not needed? m the safety feature is that you can just go and buy SP from the market. imo the safety is you can tell them to **** off!
yeh. there is that option if you no longer wish to rent. |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
454
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 19:02:51 -
[4340] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote:Said this on slack and would like to post it here for all the people saying this is no different from character bazaar.
Character bazaar is bad for the game. There is a reason why it was removed. It was also brought back because people would still trade characters using illicit means which also resulted in many other security problems like account hacking etc.
Think of it as a bad drug. They decriminalized it because keeping it illegal did not stop people from using it and led to many other problems. What they are proposing is that now we efine the drug into a much more addictive form and push it to the mainstream, advertise it to the public and put up billboards outside our schools for kids to try it. Time to funny thing. EVE forum was blocked in my country because of boosters(drugs) discussion on it.
That's hilarious. Reminds me of the tweet from Foz Four I think saying how he realized taking about guns and bombs at the airport wasn't the best idea.
Where are you from if you don't mind me asking?
|
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 19:06:10 -
[4341] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:General Lootit wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote:Said this on slack and would like to post it here for all the people saying this is no different from character bazaar.
Character bazaar is bad for the game. There is a reason why it was removed. It was also brought back because people would still trade characters using illicit means which also resulted in many other security problems like account hacking etc.
Think of it as a bad drug. They decriminalized it because keeping it illegal did not stop people from using it and led to many other problems. What they are proposing is that now we efine the drug into a much more addictive form and push it to the mainstream, advertise it to the public and put up billboards outside our schools for kids to try it. Time to funny thing. EVE forum was blocked in my country because of boosters(drugs) discussion on it. That's hilarious. Reminds me of the tweet from Fox Four I think saying how he realized taking about guns and bombs at the airport wasn't the best idea. Where are you from if you don't mind me asking? From mother Russia |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
429
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 19:11:07 -
[4342] - Quote
Dror wrote:Yet, there's a really simple explanation why it's deemed fun. "Buttons are so simple. How intriguing it is that games seem entertaining." ..That's irrelevant reduction, and it's a strawman. Science finds FPS games as improving attention allocation, spatial resolution in visual processing, and mental rotation abilities. Gaming with strategy and positioning actually improves skillfulness, where puzzle-type games provide nothing of the listed qualities. EVE features a very similar playstyle. So, calling out SP as detrimental to having stuff to do is based. "There seems to be evidence that playing games enhances problem-solving skills and improves creativity," but that's playing a game.
Look, nobody says that being unable to do what you want to do when you want isn't boring. Most players will agree and have agreed in the past, that skills which only lock you out of the game are bad and need to be changed.
It's in this spirit that learning skills and advanced learning skills which only increased your attributes were removed from the game and the attributes were permanently raised for all characters.
Every vet wants newbros to be able to have fun immediately. Many argue for giving the core skills a similar treatment as the learning skills. Others argue for increased training speeds up until a certain number of SP and then progressively raising that level over the years for future newcomers.
So we're not argueing that the skillsystem is perfect: it isn't. We're not argueing that there are times where you wish you could do x and can't because you still ahve 14 days of training time ahead.
I'm saying that the skillsystem is an artificial barrier between professions that players chose to invest ISK and time into. I'm a logistic pilot who can fly the 4 logistic cruisers, because I chose to train all 4 of them. I can't fly any heavy interdictors. If you (almost) remove the time constraint and replace it with ISK which you can get for $, you fundamentally change the game.
Dror wrote:Yet, there's a really simple explanation why it's deemed fun. "Buttons are so simple. How intriguing it is that games seem entertaining." ..That's irrelevant reduction, and it's a strawman. Science finds FPS games as improving attention allocation, spatial resolution in visual processing, and mental rotation abilities. Gaming with strategy and positioning actually improves skillfulness, where puzzle-type games provide nothing of the listed qualities.
You missed the point I was trying to make. If you compare Counter-Strike to an FPS which is more balanced, you could say that CS is doing it wrong.
You would then probably add respawn during rounds, make rounds last 30 minutes, lower the impact of headshots, balance weapons .... and voil+á, we have all the ingredients for a good game minus all the boring or unbalanced stuff. But that wouldn't be Counter-Strike, the game that drew millions to play it over more than 15 years now.
Game Theory can only guide you. It's not a recipe that you have to follow by the letter.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 19:43:58 -
[4343] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Ok. Instead of the car crash of an idea being proposed, I suggest this much better idea. We use cerebral enhancers which can ideally be found in game (or if CCP really need the revenue stream bought for Aurum). ProposalCerebral enhancers come in the 2 variations below: Standard Enhancerincreases SP gain by 100% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/8 Plex (150m) Advanced Enhancerincreases SP gain by 150% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/4 Plex (300m) The effect of the enhancer is modified based upon the SP total of the character it is used upon. 0 GÇô 10 million skillpoints = 100% effect (150% increased training speed - 6750 SP hour max)10 - 25 million skillpoints = 75% effect (112.5% increased training speed - 5737.5 SP hour max)25 - 50 million skillpoints = 50% effect (75% increased training speed - 4725 SP hour max)50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 25% effect (37.5% increased training speed - 3712.5 SP hour max)80 + million skillpoints = 20% effect (30% increased training speed - 3510 SP hour max)Under the numbers given the standard enhancer (which is the best value for money / ISK) would be equivalent in terms of value to dual character training for a character between 25m - 50m skill points. Over 50m and this benefit is halved, and under 25m and the benefit is up to double to help newer players. Benefits
- Would allow newer players who wish to grind or pay for these enhancers the possibility to do so, without them being completely overpriced due to the diminishing returns. (5x more effective for a character under 10mil SP)
- Is heavily weighted in favour of the new player, although still pretty useful for a character of any skill level.
- It won't be as powerful a tool as instantly being able to skill up using unallocated SP would have been; this therefore removes a lot of the opportunities for meta gaming and exploits.
- Won't lead to the abomination which would be be SP farms, and won't allow highly skilled characters to profiteer by selling their SP to newbies.
- Doesn't remove consequences for the skill training path you chose (you chose to be a miner, sorry you can't instantly allocate all the SP into combat, actions have consequences)
I can't really see any negative to this apart from the fact it is introducing a grind for SP particularly for new players, but it seems this might be what they want and will keep them subbed.
This looks excellent. I always thought there should be a way to increase your training speed if you are willing to spend more, like activating a second PLEX to train faster. Something like this should definitively be implemented.
It doesn't target though, the character bazaar problem. There will always be people willing to get rid of characters they don't use anymore. As it was mentioned, CCP don't want a character bazaar to exist, but if they don't provide one, people simply trade using their own ways. In violation of the EULA, but still. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 19:52:26 -
[4344] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:Dror wrote:Yet, there's a really simple explanation why it's deemed fun. "Buttons are so simple. How intriguing it is that games seem entertaining." ..That's irrelevant reduction, and it's a strawman. Science finds FPS games as improving attention allocation, spatial resolution in visual processing, and mental rotation abilities. Gaming with strategy and positioning actually improves skillfulness, where puzzle-type games provide nothing of the listed qualities. EVE features a very similar playstyle. So, calling out SP as detrimental to having stuff to do is based. "There seems to be evidence that playing games enhances problem-solving skills and improves creativity," but that's playing a game. Look, nobody says that being unable to do what you want to do when you want isn't boring. Most players will agree and have agreed in the past, that skills which only lock you out of the game are bad and need to be changed. It's in this spirit that learning skills and advanced learning skills which only increased your attributes were removed from the game and the attributes were permanently raised for all characters. Every vet wants newbros to be able to have fun immediately. Many argue for giving the core skills a similar treatment as the learning skills. Others argue for increased training speeds up until a certain number of SP and then progressively raising that level over the years for future newcomers. So we're not argueing that the skillsystem is perfect: it isn't. We're not argueing that there are times where you wish you could do x and can't because you still ahve 14 days of training time ahead. I'm saying that the skillsystem is an artificial barrier between professions that players chose to invest ISK and time into. I'm a logistic pilot who can fly the 4 logistic cruisers, because I chose to train all 4 of them. I can't fly any heavy interdictors. If you (almost) remove the time constraint and replace it with ISK which you can get for $, you fundamentally change the game. If the skill system has a major flaw, it requires update -- with this, removal. The idea's response seems based that paying more for a subscription game is really uninteresting because the game's requiring that for entertainment.
Jill Xelitras wrote:You missed the point I was trying to make. If you compare Counter-Strike to an FPS which is more balanced, you could say that CS is doing it wrong.
You would then probably add respawn during rounds, make rounds last 30 minutes, lower the impact of headshots, balance weapons .... and voil+á, we have all the ingredients for a good game minus all the boring or unbalanced stuff. But that wouldn't be Counter-Strike, the game that drew millions to play it over more than 15 years now.
Game Theory can only guide you. It's not a recipe that you have to follow by the letter. Except, I would do none of those. ..Maybe removing the RNG factors, which prevent mastery.. or how none of the animations show what's actually happening with recoil, which is a deterrent for learning and immersion. These are still based in the motivation to play -- criticisms of the game are almost always of these same ideas.
It would be basically the same game, and there's the problem with a series actually being the same -- gameplay fatigue. Whether discussing that in the tiny window of opportunity that a fresh sub, of this game, has.. or on the low amount of content that those same subs provide so that veterans stay interested, playing a limited experience (or nothing at all if the experience seems like it's going nowhere) effects motivation, which effects creativity and feelings of mastery, which effects market and referral potential.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
264
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 19:57:10 -
[4345] - Quote
Havenard wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Ok. Instead of the car crash of an idea being proposed, I suggest this much better idea. We use cerebral enhancers which can ideally be found in game (or if CCP really need the revenue stream bought for Aurum). ProposalCerebral enhancers come in the 2 variations below: Standard Enhancerincreases SP gain by 100% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/8 Plex (150m) Advanced Enhancerincreases SP gain by 150% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/4 Plex (300m) The effect of the enhancer is modified based upon the SP total of the character it is used upon. 0 GÇô 10 million skillpoints = 100% effect (150% increased training speed - 6750 SP hour max)10 - 25 million skillpoints = 75% effect (112.5% increased training speed - 5737.5 SP hour max)25 - 50 million skillpoints = 50% effect (75% increased training speed - 4725 SP hour max)50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 25% effect (37.5% increased training speed - 3712.5 SP hour max)80 + million skillpoints = 20% effect (30% increased training speed - 3510 SP hour max)Under the numbers given the standard enhancer (which is the best value for money / ISK) would be equivalent in terms of value to dual character training for a character between 25m - 50m skill points. Over 50m and this benefit is halved, and under 25m and the benefit is up to double to help newer players. Benefits
- Would allow newer players who wish to grind or pay for these enhancers the possibility to do so, without them being completely overpriced due to the diminishing returns. (5x more effective for a character under 10mil SP)
- Is heavily weighted in favour of the new player, although still pretty useful for a character of any skill level.
- It won't be as powerful a tool as instantly being able to skill up using unallocated SP would have been; this therefore removes a lot of the opportunities for meta gaming and exploits.
- Won't lead to the abomination which would be be SP farms, and won't allow highly skilled characters to profiteer by selling their SP to newbies.
- Doesn't remove consequences for the skill training path you chose (you chose to be a miner, sorry you can't instantly allocate all the SP into combat, actions have consequences)
I can't really see any negative to this apart from the fact it is introducing a grind for SP particularly for new players, but it seems this might be what they want and will keep them subbed. This looks excellent. I always thought there should be a way to increase your training speed if you are willing to spend more, like activating a second PLEX to train faster. Something like this should definitively be implemented. It doesn't target though, the character bazaar problem. There will always be people willing to get rid of characters they don't use anymore. As it was mentioned, CCP don't want a character bazaar to exist, but if they don't provide one, people simply trade using their own ways. In violation of the EULA, but still. I am glad you like the suggestion. I think with the level of enhancement a new player can get from the proposal above, and also due to the fact that with a focused skill plan you can get a very solid character for 10mil - 25mil SP, it would cut down a lot of reason for new players to even use the bazaar. That being said the bazaar will still have a place mainly for capital and highly specialised characters.
I have posted this idea in F&I forums, and so If you like the idea please up vote or put a comment in this thread.
Alternative to Skill Trading
If enough people show an interest then CCP may take some notice and rethink their current plan.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
74
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 20:13:40 -
[4346] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote: So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design/
A game model like WoW is hardly a fail Dror, 12 mill active subs in its heyday of wrath grossing 300mill per annum even now a paltry 5.6 mill active subs. Im sure EvE would like even 33% percent of those active accounts running. It's not the same argument.. is the problem with this. Nothing's saying that WoW is a failure -- but it has a lot for criticism, and it is losing its status quo very effectively. To reiterate the point, then, what about MOBAs? The best design philosophy is still very based in motivation, so for a contrast: are MOBAs, replaying the same map and farming the same creeps as the gameplay experience, the crux of gaming? Yet, they have some of the best PCUs on the market. So, what of this discussion remains? ..Having something to do? ..Being competitive without paying lots of money? If there's the idea that SP is helpful, that's mostly about it being rewarding? How ludicrous -- any benefit from gaining something through SP is negated by its original limitations. No accurate description of that feeling ascribes SP to why it's great getting ships and relevance in an MMO. Nothing features SP for an advertisement -- subs come to play the game. Even more, it's validity as a game mechanic is obviously being challenged with the idea of a redesign. The best option is cutting losses for a system that provides much less than it limits, if depth of gameplay and freedom are of any benefit (protip: with motivation and decision theory, they are key).
Well for your main point on WoW you bought up saying is that a great game ? - Yes it was until they messed about with its core mechanics e.g. the skill tree - They started to add more fluff into it, The pets and Mounts which evolved into an in game shop - The final nail it its coffin The instant gratification mode, the level 90 boost. All the expansions that followed wrath had either very little or zero content for the pvp base, Major fail.
Your the only person who i have seen write that they look at the skill training as a reward, its not a reward its the characters progression as your experience builds within the framework of the game - The rewards are your endeavours within its construct.
So you now change the goalposts and refer to another kind of game MOBA's so first off i get my summoner to 30, Then every game i have to get my champion upto 18 if i can actually get that far. also its a scramble for who calls out popular champions and lanes, such as top lane darius Mids orianna bot bleh .... jungler not in my lifetime then runes and masteries before i start the game and you dont even get the benefit of this until 30. Im in game 2 things happen now first all goes well and i get an average 30 minute game !! or we smash or get hammered and all that for 10 to 15 mins or waiting for the team to surrender at 20 minutes. All i have is free to play champs unless YOU guessed it stick my hand in my pocket and pay there are roughly 120 champs ,skins, Icons The maps are well square with 3 lanes and if you only like certain lanes you may as well become a bot - oh did i mention apart from the attaining level 30 summoner all the above is rinse and repeat every time for at best 30 to 40 minutes game time - My son skill level Master / diamond played 2 years given up Boredom Total spend on free game -ú850.00. gone onto Blade and soul Possibilty of returning - lol ZERO.
The game has zero comparisions in anyway to eve except its PVP and best PCU's DOTA 21-25 LoL 16 -21 More like 12 if you play at the weekends. If you base your idea of reward by measuring against these kind of models then you must have a very short attention span and no concept of longevity within a vast evolving enviroment. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 20:57:21 -
[4347] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote: So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design/
A game model like WoW is hardly a fail Dror, 12 mill active subs in its heyday of wrath grossing 300mill per annum even now a paltry 5.6 mill active subs. Im sure EvE would like even 33% percent of those active accounts running. It's not the same argument.. is the problem with this. Nothing's saying that WoW is a failure -- but it has a lot for criticism, and it is losing its status quo very effectively. To reiterate the point, then, what about MOBAs? The best design philosophy is still very based in motivation, so for a contrast: are MOBAs, replaying the same map and farming the same creeps as the gameplay experience, the crux of gaming? Yet, they have some of the best PCUs on the market. So, what of this discussion remains? ..Having something to do? ..Being competitive without paying lots of money? If there's the idea that SP is helpful, that's mostly about it being rewarding? How ludicrous -- any benefit from gaining something through SP is negated by its original limitations. No accurate description of that feeling ascribes SP to why it's great getting ships and relevance in an MMO. Nothing features SP for an advertisement -- subs come to play the game. Even more, it's validity as a game mechanic is obviously being challenged with the idea of a redesign. The best option is cutting losses for a system that provides much less than it limits, if depth of gameplay and freedom are of any benefit (protip: with motivation and decision theory, they are key). Well for your main point on WoW you bought up saying is that a great game ? - Yes it was until they messed about with its core mechanics e.g. the skill tree - They started to add more fluff into it, The pets and Mounts which evolved into an in game shop - The final nail it its coffin The instant gratification mode, the level 90 boost. All the expansions that followed wrath had either very little or zero content for the pvp base, Major fail. Your the only person who i have seen write that they look at the skill training as a reward, its not a reward its the characters progression as your experience builds within the framework of the game - The rewards are your endeavours within its construct. So you now change the goalposts and refer to another kind of game MOBA's so first off i get my summoner to 30, Then every game i have to get my champion upto 18 if i can actually get that far. also its a scramble for who calls out popular champions and lanes, such as top lane darius Mids orianna bot bleh .... jungler not in my lifetime then runes and masteries before i start the game and you dont even get the benefit of this until 30. Im in game 2 things happen now first all goes well and i get an average 30 minute game !! or we smash or get hammered and all that for 10 to 15 mins or waiting for the team to surrender at 20 minutes. All i have is free to play champs unless YOU guessed it stick my hand in my pocket and pay there are roughly 120 champs ,skins, Icons The maps are well square with 3 lanes and if you only like certain lanes you may as well become a bot - oh did i mention apart from the attaining level 30 summoner all the above is rinse and repeat every time for at best 30 to 40 minutes game time - My son skill level Master / diamond played 2 years given up Boredom Total spend on free game -ú850.00. gone onto Blade and soul Possibilty of returning - lol ZERO. The game has zero comparisions in anyway to eve except its PVP and best PCU's DOTA 21-25 LoL 16 -21 More like 12 if you play at the weekends. If you base your idea of reward by measuring against these kind of models then you must have a very short attention span and no concept of longevity within a vast evolving enviroment. I'm contrasting the design of popular games through established motivation theories. There's no logic in saying something about "WoW has this mechanic -- put it in every game". There is, though, plenty of reason to base literally every design on what provides the most value. With video games, that requires playing (or even paying), which requires motivation. The point made with other MMOs, especially original WoW, is how much diversity there is (even if the standards are particularly low) -- achievements, mounts, leveling, WPvP, instanced gameplay including arenas and gamemodes, the fantasy fulfillment of "raiding" and exploration, and professions. All of those define an average character experience. It's a game. Limiting gameplay because there hasn't been enough money paid is unrealistic and inauthentic. The market is keen on that. If $500 was spent for every 25M SP of experiencing this MMO, that's a nice potential investment for any other hobby.
Digressing, there seems no evidence that WoW's status would be doing much better if it was the same game as initially. Except, EVE has yet to ruin its "professions" and ships but is still finding a similar trend.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
74
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 21:27:29 -
[4348] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote: So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design/
A game model like WoW is hardly a fail Dror, 12 mill active subs in its heyday of wrath grossing 300mill per annum even now a paltry 5.6 mill active subs. Im sure EvE would like even 33% percent of those active accounts running. It's not the same argument.. is the problem with this. Nothing's saying that WoW is a failure -- but it has a lot for criticism, and it is losing its status quo very effectively. To reiterate the point, then, what about MOBAs? The best design philosophy is still very based in motivation, so for a contrast: are MOBAs, replaying the same map and farming the same creeps as the gameplay experience, the crux of gaming? Yet, they have some of the best PCUs on the market. So, what of this discussion remains? ..Having something to do? ..Being competitive without paying lots of money? If there's the idea that SP is helpful, that's mostly about it being rewarding? How ludicrous -- any benefit from gaining something through SP is negated by its original limitations. No accurate description of that feeling ascribes SP to why it's great getting ships and relevance in an MMO. Nothing features SP for an advertisement -- subs come to play the game. Even more, it's validity as a game mechanic is obviously being challenged with the idea of a redesign. The best option is cutting losses for a system that provides much less than it limits, if depth of gameplay and freedom are of any benefit (protip: with motivation and decision theory, they are key). Well for your main point on WoW you bought up saying is that a great game ? - Yes it was until they messed about with its core mechanics e.g. the skill tree - They started to add more fluff into it, The pets and Mounts which evolved into an in game shop - The final nail it its coffin The instant gratification mode, the level 90 boost. All the expansions that followed wrath had either very little or zero content for the pvp base, Major fail. Your the only person who i have seen write that they look at the skill training as a reward, its not a reward its the characters progression as your experience builds within the framework of the game - The rewards are your endeavours within its construct. So you now change the goalposts and refer to another kind of game MOBA's so first off i get my summoner to 30, Then every game i have to get my champion upto 18 if i can actually get that far. also its a scramble for who calls out popular champions and lanes, such as top lane darius Mids orianna bot bleh .... jungler not in my lifetime then runes and masteries before i start the game and you dont even get the benefit of this until 30. Im in game 2 things happen now first all goes well and i get an average 30 minute game !! or we smash or get hammered and all that for 10 to 15 mins or waiting for the team to surrender at 20 minutes. All i have is free to play champs unless YOU guessed it stick my hand in my pocket and pay there are roughly 120 champs ,skins, Icons The maps are well square with 3 lanes and if you only like certain lanes you may as well become a bot - oh did i mention apart from the attaining level 30 summoner all the above is rinse and repeat every time for at best 30 to 40 minutes game time - My son skill level Master / diamond played 2 years given up Boredom Total spend on free game -ú850.00. gone onto Blade and soul Possibilty of returning - lol ZERO. The game has zero comparisions in anyway to eve except its PVP and best PCU's DOTA 21-25 LoL 16 -21 More like 12 if you play at the weekends. If you base your idea of reward by measuring against these kind of models then you must have a very short attention span and no concept of longevity within a vast evolving enviroment. I'm contrasting the design of popular games through established motivation theories. There's no logic in saying something about "WoW has this mechanic -- put it in every game". There is, though, plenty of reason to base literally every design on what provides the most value. With video games, that requires playing (or even paying), which requires motivation. The point made with other MMOs, especially original WoW, is how much diversity there is (even if the standards are particularly low) -- achievements, mounts, leveling, WPvP, instanced gameplay including arenas and gamemodes, the fantasy fulfillment of "raiding" and exploration, and professions. All of those define an average character experience. It's a game. Limiting gameplay because there hasn't been enough money paid is unrealistic and inauthentic. The market is keen on that. If $500 was spent for every 25M SP of experiencing this MMO, that's a nice potential investment for any other hobby. Digressing, there seems no evidence that WoW's status would be doing much better if it was the same game as initially. Except, EVE has yet to ruin its "professions" and ships but is still finding a similar trend. Then perhaps it has nothing to do with any fundamental flaws of the MMO genre whether its Grind - Skillpoints - repetitiveness but that there is now such a vast amount of free 2 play games - FPS / MMO / MOBA / Early access that the subscription model itself is now an out going trend with such diversity albeit that there is actually no such thing as free2play in reality. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 21:39:31 -
[4349] - Quote
Something about price on extactors. It will be always correlate with price on PLEX because payers want to maximize isk/$. So devs please make it affordable like 1/12 of PLEX in $ or less. In isk it will be cost 100m hence price on SP injector will be around 400m isks. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6855
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 21:39:57 -
[4350] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Then perhaps it has nothing to do with any fundamental flaws of the MMO genre whether its Grind - Skillpoints - repetitiveness but that there is now such a vast amount of free 2 play games - FPS / MMO / MOBA / Early access that the subscription model itself is now an out going trend with such diversity albeit that there is actually no such thing as free2play in reality. But what about 200+ pages of screaming, where does that lead?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 21:41:01 -
[4351] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Then perhaps it has nothing to do with any fundamental flaws of the MMO genre whether its Grind - Skillpoints - repetitiveness but that there is now such a vast amount of free 2 play games - FPS / MMO / MOBA / Early access that the subscription model itself is now an out going trend with such diversity albeit that there is actually no such thing as free2play in reality. Paying money -- again, it's supported by motivation.
That is also a strawman, technically. I state that paying mid-hundreds through thousands of dollars on a game is obviously well-spent on other investments, and the response is about all payments being implausible? There's no reason to say such a thing, either.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
74
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 21:43:28 -
[4352] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Then perhaps it has nothing to do with any fundamental flaws of the MMO genre whether its Grind - Skillpoints - repetitiveness but that there is now such a vast amount of free 2 play games - FPS / MMO / MOBA / Early access that the subscription model itself is now an out going trend with such diversity albeit that there is actually no such thing as free2play in reality. But what about 200+ pages of screaming, where does that lead?
Only time will tell, maybe a kick in the pants for full information instead of drips. It could of all been planned that way to see what reception it was going to get who know's |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
459
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 21:44:58 -
[4353] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: Then perhaps it has nothing to do with any fundamental flaws of the MMO genre whether its Grind - Skillpoints - repetitiveness but that there is now such a vast amount of free 2 play games - FPS / MMO / MOBA / Early access that the subscription model itself is now an out going trend with such diversity albeit that there is actually no such thing as free2play in reality.
They've been saying that **** since 2010 and while it may be true for some run of the mill mmos I don't think it's true for a unique game like eve.
If CCP goes back to their core values and sticks to them I personally would have no problem paying 20$ a month, and/or throwing money at them in other ways, and I'm pretty poor.
I was plexing my accounts for a couple of years when my RL didn't allow me to sub. I was always planning to get back that lost ISK when I could. I was also dying for skins. Now that I can afford it though I don't feel confident about the direction the game is going in and therefore I'm not going to throw hundreds of dollars at it. In addition I think skins are priced ridiculously high and refuse to submit to this office gauging out of principle.
If they address these issues I will gladly go out of my way to support the company. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
74
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 21:50:07 -
[4354] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Then perhaps it has nothing to do with any fundamental flaws of the MMO genre whether its Grind - Skillpoints - repetitiveness but that there is now such a vast amount of free 2 play games - FPS / MMO / MOBA / Early access that the subscription model itself is now an out going trend with such diversity albeit that there is actually no such thing as free2play in reality. Paying money -- again, it's supported by motivation. That is also a strawman, technically. I state that paying mid-hundreds through thousands of dollars on a game is obviously well-spent on other investments, and the response is about all payments being implausible? There's no reason to say such a thing, either. As you've seen by the reception this has received it all depends on what side of the fence you prefer, the long road with a sense of achievement or the instant gratification of doing alot in a short time frame then suffer the consequences of boredom or burnout. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 21:52:43 -
[4355] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Then perhaps it has nothing to do with any fundamental flaws of the MMO genre whether its Grind - Skillpoints - repetitiveness but that there is now such a vast amount of free 2 play games - FPS / MMO / MOBA / Early access that the subscription model itself is now an out going trend with such diversity albeit that there is actually no such thing as free2play in reality. Paying money -- again, it's supported by motivation. That is also a strawman, technically. I state that paying mid-hundreds through thousands of dollars on a game is obviously well-spent on other investments, and the response is about all payments being implausible? There's no reason to say such a thing, either. As you've seen by the reception this has received it all depends on what side of the fence you prefer, the long road with a sense of achievement or the instant gratification of doing alot in a short time frame then suffer the consequences of boredom or burnout. You're still passively supporting SP as a mechanic.. and also implying that MMOs have some fundamental flaw, yet there's literally no reason for a sandbox game to have an SP/XP sort of progression. It's a full game that subs would experience, and it's the reason they come.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Myevil Gankalt
University of Caille Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 21:56:04 -
[4356] - Quote
This whole idea is just awful.
The main reason I am against it is that it undermines one of the core tenants of EVE: Actions have consequences. Consider myself. I am, and shall always be, an evil gank alt. This life style has consequences. There is a certain group of people who, for whatever reason, do not like me. They even target me in pvp! If I decide to try another life style, I should not be able to burn this alt and roll a nice one which is skilled over night. I realize there is a character bazaar, but that has issues. Any character I buy might very well have been involved in some scam or corporate theft. In short, there are consequences.
I also don't like the idea of somebody buying 10 training alts as a farm to build one main character. |
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
734
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 22:03:50 -
[4357] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Havenard wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Ok. Instead of the car crash of an idea being proposed, I suggest this much better idea. We use cerebral enhancers which can ideally be found in game (or if CCP really need the revenue stream bought for Aurum). ProposalCerebral enhancers come in the 2 variations below: Standard Enhancerincreases SP gain by 100% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/8 Plex (150m) Advanced Enhancerincreases SP gain by 150% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/4 Plex (300m) The effect of the enhancer is modified based upon the SP total of the character it is used upon. 0 GÇô 10 million skillpoints = 100% effect (150% increased training speed - 6750 SP hour max)10 - 25 million skillpoints = 75% effect (112.5% increased training speed - 5737.5 SP hour max)25 - 50 million skillpoints = 50% effect (75% increased training speed - 4725 SP hour max)50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 25% effect (37.5% increased training speed - 3712.5 SP hour max)80 + million skillpoints = 20% effect (30% increased training speed - 3510 SP hour max)Under the numbers given the standard enhancer (which is the best value for money / ISK) would be equivalent in terms of value to dual character training for a character between 25m - 50m skill points. Over 50m and this benefit is halved, and under 25m and the benefit is up to double to help newer players. Benefits
- Would allow newer players who wish to grind or pay for these enhancers the possibility to do so, without them being completely overpriced due to the diminishing returns. (5x more effective for a character under 10mil SP)
- Is heavily weighted in favour of the new player, although still pretty useful for a character of any skill level.
- It won't be as powerful a tool as instantly being able to skill up using unallocated SP would have been; this therefore removes a lot of the opportunities for meta gaming and exploits.
- Won't lead to the abomination which would be be SP farms, and won't allow highly skilled characters to profiteer by selling their SP to newbies.
- Doesn't remove consequences for the skill training path you chose (you chose to be a miner, sorry you can't instantly allocate all the SP into combat, actions have consequences)
I can't really see any negative to this apart from the fact it is introducing a grind for SP particularly for new players, but it seems this might be what they want and will keep them subbed. This looks excellent. I always thought there should be a way to increase your training speed if you are willing to spend more, like activating a second PLEX to train faster. Something like this should definitively be implemented. It doesn't target though, the character bazaar problem. There will always be people willing to get rid of characters they don't use anymore. As it was mentioned, CCP don't want a character bazaar to exist, but if they don't provide one, people simply trade using their own ways. In violation of the EULA, but still. I am glad you like the suggestion. I think with the level of enhancement a new player can get from the proposal above, and also due to the fact that with a focused skill plan you can get a very solid character for 10mil - 25mil SP, it would cut down a lot of reason for new players to even use the bazaar. That being said the bazaar will still have a place mainly for capital and highly specialised characters. I have posted this idea in F&I forums, and so If you like the idea please up vote or put a comment in this thread. Alternative to Skill TradingIf enough people show an interest then CCP may take some notice and rethink their current plan.
You know these already exist right? Standard Cerebral Accelerator - 1.49 Bil, Prototype Cerebral Accelerator - 549 mil, Advanced Cerebral Accelerator - 15 BIL, all on contracts.
Biggest problem with them is - They are only available on contracts, you have to know what you are looking for (exact search terms), you have to know they exist to know what to look for, this is Eve and everyone wants maximum profit.
CCP want an income stream and can charge twice for each packet with their proposal - Aurum + Plex - They won't go for something that reduces how much they can squeeze out of microtransactions.
** The current Blood promo - Blood Raider Advanced Cerebral Accelerator - 250 mil on contracts. (and only lasts 24hrs)
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
75
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 22:06:26 -
[4358] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Then perhaps it has nothing to do with any fundamental flaws of the MMO genre whether its Grind - Skillpoints - repetitiveness but that there is now such a vast amount of free 2 play games - FPS / MMO / MOBA / Early access that the subscription model itself is now an out going trend with such diversity albeit that there is actually no such thing as free2play in reality. Paying money -- again, it's supported by motivation. That is also a strawman, technically. I state that paying mid-hundreds through thousands of dollars on a game is obviously well-spent on other investments, and the response is about all payments being implausible? There's no reason to say such a thing, either. As you've seen by the reception this has received it all depends on what side of the fence you prefer, the long road with a sense of achievement or the instant gratification of doing alot in a short time frame then suffer the consequences of boredom or burnout. You're still passively supporting SP as a mechanic.. and also implying that MMOs have some fundamental flaw, yet there's literally no reason for a sandbox game to have an SP/XP sort of progression. It's a full game that subs would experience, and it's the reason they come.
I fully support the long road but i do see the need for there to be something changed to speed things up for a new player, TSP player governed is a huge mistake of epic proportion, Human nature dictates if there is a way to speed thing up - they will find it, If they want to cross a river - they will build a boat, In eve if there is a legal way to bend profit exploit something - It will most definatly be exploited. It may have not been perfect from its day of release but it has held a niche market in something that has never been done before and done it well. So why should something be stripped away that has worked for so long. There has been motivation to play the game for 12 years with the same mechanic in place, but the new players now require a helping hand. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 22:15:59 -
[4359] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Then perhaps it has nothing to do with any fundamental flaws of the MMO genre whether its Grind - Skillpoints - repetitiveness but that there is now such a vast amount of free 2 play games - FPS / MMO / MOBA / Early access that the subscription model itself is now an out going trend with such diversity albeit that there is actually no such thing as free2play in reality. Paying money -- again, it's supported by motivation. That is also a strawman, technically. I state that paying mid-hundreds through thousands of dollars on a game is obviously well-spent on other investments, and the response is about all payments being implausible? There's no reason to say such a thing, either. As you've seen by the reception this has received it all depends on what side of the fence you prefer, the long road with a sense of achievement or the instant gratification of doing alot in a short time frame then suffer the consequences of boredom or burnout. You're still passively supporting SP as a mechanic.. and also implying that MMOs have some fundamental flaw, yet there's literally no reason for a sandbox game to have an SP/XP sort of progression. It's a full game that subs would experience, and it's the reason they come. I fully support the long road but i do see the need for there to be something changed to speed things up for a new player, TSP player governed is a huge mistake of epic proportion, Human nature dictates if there is a way to speed thing up - they will find it, If they want to cross a river - they will build a boat, In eve if there is a legal way to bend profit exploit something - It will most definatly be exploited. It may have not been perfect from its day of release but it has held a niche market in something that has never been done before and done it well. So why should something be stripped away that has worked for so long. There has been motivation to play the game for 12 years with the same mechanic in place, but the new players now require a helping hand. Why, because it's predictable. How motivation functions shows the probability of success.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
345
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 02:46:00 -
[4360] - Quote
Captain Africa wrote:TheSmokingHertog wrote:Skinzee wrote:Skinzee wrote:I have a question for ALL people that say this is a bad idea...
--- WHAT EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON YOU AS A PILOT IF THIS WOULD ACTUALLY GO LIVE? ---
There is already an option to buy 0-200m SP characters... Character Bazaar - (Thats Pay2Win if you look at it that way)
Would love someone to actually give me a valid answer to this question. As far as I can see, there is none. I do... Bitter vets would have more people around them that could fly high end doctrines like they do. Just by roaming off their own SP. Lemme throw this right back at you ...I had to wait 6 years to get my character trained up to be 145 mil sp do you think it fair that you would be able to achieve that by just buying sp and whalla ? Infact just **** off...**** that im outta here
Thats not possible, CCP is capping the upwards sprint from each package you add in SP. Did you even read the blog?
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
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Dynamus Deckerman
Perkone Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 04:53:26 -
[4361] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Dave Stark wrote:considering after a month 50% of people quit, and 40% of them are "leveling their raven" would it really be so bad if grinding pve were used to "level up" by buying SP with their money? i mean, if 40% of people, which are 80% of the remaining players after 1 month are doing it - surely there's a market for that type of gameplay? they're still out in space, you can still go and mess with them. Just give up and quit your job as an Eve Dev for coming up with this abominable idea. I'm losing all interest to log in anymore thanks to you. the door's got a closer on it, don't let it hit you on the way out.
Are you trying to get people to quit Eve just because they don't agree with your philosophy? If you are someone from the Eve marketing department then you should be reprimanded for posting such a indecorous remark. Are you're an ally of CCP or an Enemy. Seems to me that you're probably the later because it's clear you don't give a lick of concern about the players and only about how much you can milk from this game.
So far, from all your post all you point out is that it would make no difference from buying char from Eve Bazaar, yada, yada. But you're forgetting something important dude, something someone who's only interested in the money aspect of Eve can't comprehend. And that is the fun aspect of Eve. I'm playing Eve because I'm enjoying the game. What you're proposing is going to subtract from that and worst thing about it is that you don't even seem to notice. You lack the ability to comprehend what draws people to play Eve which alone is reason enough for players to ignore anything you have to say in this post. If you really are some sort of representative in the marketing department of Eve then you really should step down and stop this post before you make more people contemplate on quitting Eve.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4202
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 05:11:06 -
[4362] - Quote
Dynamus Deckerman wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Dave Stark wrote:considering after a month 50% of people quit, and 40% of them are "leveling their raven" would it really be so bad if grinding pve were used to "level up" by buying SP with their money? i mean, if 40% of people, which are 80% of the remaining players after 1 month are doing it - surely there's a market for that type of gameplay? they're still out in space, you can still go and mess with them. Just give up and quit your job as an Eve Dev for coming up with this abominable idea. I'm losing all interest to log in anymore thanks to you. the door's got a closer on it, don't let it hit you on the way out. Are you trying to get people to quit Eve just because they don't agree with your philosophy? If you are someone from the Eve marketing department then you should be reprimanded for posting such a indecorous remark. Are you're an ally of CCP or an Enemy. Seems to me that you're probably the later because it's clear you don't give a lick of concern about the players and only about how much you can milk from this game. So far, from all your post all you point out is that it would make no difference from buying char from Eve Bazaar, yada, yada. But you're forgetting something important dude, something someone who's only interested in the money aspect of Eve can't comprehend. And that is the fun aspect of Eve. I'm playing Eve because I'm enjoying the game. What you're proposing is going to subtract from that and worst thing about it is that you don't even seem to notice. You lack the ability to comprehend what draws people to play Eve which alone is reason enough for players to ignore anything you have to say in this post. If you really are some sort of representative in the marketing department of Eve then you really should step down and stop this post before you make more people contemplate on quitting Eve. Confirming Dave si the evil twin of Bob from Marketing.
Evil Dave from Marketing made me quit EVE. At least 10 times already: he's so evil I re-sub just so I can quit again and show him how evil he is.
Whether crazy or troll, it's hilarious how this thread still delivers after over 4,000 posts.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Dave Stark
7634
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Posted - 2015.10.22 05:29:57 -
[4363] - Quote
i can't make anyone do ****.
if people want to leave, it won't be because i'm not saying "this idea is bad".
and i sure as **** ain't pandering to cry babies who's only answer is "i'mma unsub" - let them.
every time ccp make an announcement, some one says "i'll unsub if you do this". eve hasn't died yet, such threats are hollow and pathetic, |
8915
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 06:33:17 -
[4364] - Quote
Everyone let's give Eyj+¦lfur Gu+¦mundsson (@CCP_DrEyjoG) a round of applause for getting out of CCP when he did.
Arbitrage profits to be made boys get in there.
Skill points are going to be a commodity and all commodities can be essentially weaponized. SP are going to be priced out of reach of the people you are trying to benefit in that process. Given the nature of this system you can expect to see supply shortages in the long run. Since people over 80mill sp usually have more isk than people in the 0-5 mill sp range. In an order of magnitude of hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of dollars of plexes. This allows the player base to ruin this process quickly since the sp supply will be destroyed, prices inflated, barriers to entry are raised just that much higher for the people you want to help. The surplus supply will dry up and will be tied to time again.
Few Hints: Buy cheap characters NOW that aren't going to sell at a premium. Look for characters that have a dumb name, bad rep, not too old and don't have a premium built into them because they are over X amount of sp. Don't worry about sp allocation. Keep all profits in the form of isk until the price of plexes goes back down. Then convert to plex and sell for $$$.
The bazzar isn't broken. It's a market. A character's utility is priced in. Factors such as bad/good name, bad/good corp history, and having your skill points over/under X amount (which is also decided by the market) get taken into consideration when the market decides what to discount and what to assign a premium to. Best thing about the whole thing is you get to choose if you buy, or wait until a better toon comes along.
The new player experience is broken and CCP doesn't want to admit it. I grew up with the game. I have been playing since I was 13. We use to be able to start with characters around 700k- 800k sp. Back then that was a decent start. They should bring that back but at a adjusted rate (most likely correlated to an average global sp of active players). And/or lowering the barriers of entry. This should be looked at as barriers of entry to fleets, and (insert marketing phrase)"THE sandbox experience" and not just a particular ship or gun. Ie: With in a day or so you use to be able to fit cruise missiles and torps to kestrels and contribute to fleets in ways that go beyond the cannon fodder doctrine.
In my experience. People like devs, game masters, bug hunters, etc. aren't super profit motivated people. This most likely boils down to someone such as Thor Bjorgolfsson, or General Catalyst Partners wanting to pump up the financial statements. This could be a move to get rid of the company since it most likely isn't giving returns they expect, the fact CCP just might lack sexiness in their eyes, or they might just want to generate some cash flows to allow CCP to have working capital to diversify their game portfolio beyond space ship stuff. A really good example of this would be a move towards the unexploited vampire game genre market. (THAT STATEMENT IS INTENDED AS A JOKE) .
Lastly, I hope CCP empties the sand that is used for the sandbox experience before they work us over. Some orifices just aren't designed for sand. Who am I kidding WTS: 1 pump of lotion for a PLEX. FAST DELIVERY. BUYER PAYS CHRIBBA'S FEES.
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 06:50:35 -
[4365] - Quote
Myevil Gankalt wrote:This whole idea is just awful.
The main reason I am against it is that it undermines one of the core tenants of EVE: Actions have consequences. Consider myself. I am, and shall always be, an evil gank alt. This life style has consequences. There is a certain group of people who, for whatever reason, do not like me. They even target me in pvp! If I decide to try another life style, I should not be able to burn this alt and roll a nice one which is skilled over night. I realize there is a character bazaar, but that has issues. Any character I buy might very well have been involved in some scam or corporate theft. In short, there are consequences.
I also don't like the idea of somebody buying 10 training alts as a farm to build one main character. OK. Lets do math. Assume that person have 10m SP. How much it will be cost to transfer it to the new toon? Answer a half SP because you can't extract from character with less than 5m SP. Also extractors need to be paid. |
Dynamus Deckerman
Perkone Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 06:52:57 -
[4366] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i can't make anyone do ****.
if people want to leave, it won't be because i'm not saying "this idea is bad".
and i sure as **** ain't pandering to cry babies who's only answer is "i'mma unsub" - let them.
every time ccp make an announcement, some one says "i'll unsub if you do this". eve hasn't died yet, such threats are hollow and pathetic,
So in other words you're gambling that this game killing feature won't kill Eve this time because you think since it hasn't happen in the past that it won't happen this time? That is a very dangerous assumption considering Eve's age and present state. And this feature discredits the main core principle that made Eve what it is today. I can only see this game going downhill if such a feature as Pay2Win as this one is implemented. I'm creeping up on 26M SP and I look forward to continue this progression, it gives me something to look forward too as I continue to get better. Add Pay2Win, and this enthusiasm will vanish which will probably lead me into unsubbing also. It's not a good idea and you shouldn't tell people to quit who disagree with you, it reveals your lack of concern for Eve's long term survival. All it will do is provoke them into leaving sooner as soon as this distasteful feature is implemented.
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Dave Stark
7634
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 07:00:26 -
[4367] - Quote
i'm not gambling anything. i'm just refusing to scream "the sky is falling". and i didn't tell anyone to quit, they whined about that on their own. |
Dynamus Deckerman
Perkone Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 07:03:13 -
[4368] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Myevil Gankalt wrote:This whole idea is just awful.
The main reason I am against it is that it undermines one of the core tenants of EVE: Actions have consequences. Consider myself. I am, and shall always be, an evil gank alt. This life style has consequences. There is a certain group of people who, for whatever reason, do not like me. They even target me in pvp! If I decide to try another life style, I should not be able to burn this alt and roll a nice one which is skilled over night. I realize there is a character bazaar, but that has issues. Any character I buy might very well have been involved in some scam or corporate theft. In short, there are consequences.
I also don't like the idea of somebody buying 10 training alts as a farm to build one main character. OK. Lets do math. Assume that person have 10m SP. How much it will be cost to transfer it to the new toon? Answer a half SP because you can't extract from character with less than 5m SP. Also extractors need to be paid.
You still don't get it.
I see only the instant gratifiers left playing this game when this feature hits. Question is will they and the others that follow such crowd outweigh the traditional players that leaves?
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 07:10:06 -
[4369] - Quote
Dynamus Deckerman wrote:Add Pay2Win, and this enthusiasm will vanish which will probably lead me into unsubbing also.
Today I re-subbed only because I want to support this idea. It will be your choice. We already figured out that it's not a pay2win feature because experience>skill points in PVP. |
Dynamus Deckerman
Perkone Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 07:15:09 -
[4370] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i'm not gambling anything. i'm just refusing to scream "the sky is falling". and i didn't tell anyone to quit, they whined about that on their own.
Provoking someone to quit is almost the same as telling them to quit dude. Especially since it appears that you're someone from CCP Marketing Department. You're a bad salesman for CCP and should know when it's time to throw in the towel instead of provoking people to quit when they refuse to give in to your lame sells pitch. |
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2261
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 07:25:56 -
[4371] - Quote
Dynamus Deckerman wrote:General Lootit wrote:Myevil Gankalt wrote:This whole idea is just awful.
The main reason I am against it is that it undermines one of the core tenants of EVE: Actions have consequences. Consider myself. I am, and shall always be, an evil gank alt. This life style has consequences. There is a certain group of people who, for whatever reason, do not like me. They even target me in pvp! If I decide to try another life style, I should not be able to burn this alt and roll a nice one which is skilled over night. I realize there is a character bazaar, but that has issues. Any character I buy might very well have been involved in some scam or corporate theft. In short, there are consequences.
I also don't like the idea of somebody buying 10 training alts as a farm to build one main character. OK. Lets do math. Assume that person have 10m SP. How much it will be cost to transfer it to the new toon? Answer a half SP because you can't extract from character with less than 5m SP. Also extractors need to be paid. You still don't get it.
No, he doesn't. He really really doesn't.
Probably because he's (and I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here) still sufficiently new he's not been exposed to the lengths eve players will go to in order to get an advantage over others.
I doubt he's experienced people on safaris, experiences corporate spy/sabotage/theft.
Hell I doubt he's set foot out of highsec tbh. |
Dave Stark
7634
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 07:34:44 -
[4372] - Quote
Dynamus Deckerman wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i'm not gambling anything. i'm just refusing to scream "the sky is falling". and i didn't tell anyone to quit, they whined about that on their own. Provoking someone to quit is almost the same as telling them to quit dude. Especially since it appears that you're someone from CCP Marketing Department. You're a bad salesman for CCP and should know when it's time to throw in the towel instead of provoking people to quit when they refuse to give in to your lame sells pitch.
Lol. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 07:36:17 -
[4373] - Quote
Myevil Gankalt wrote:The main reason I am against it is that it undermines one of the core tenants of EVE: Actions have consequences. Consider myself. I am, and shall always be, an evil gank alt. This life style has consequences. There is a certain group of people who, for whatever reason, do not like me. They even target me in pvp! If I decide to try another life style, I should not be able to burn this alt and roll a nice one which is skilled over night. I realize there is a character bazaar, but that has issues. Any character I buy might very well have been involved in some scam or corporate theft. In short, there are consequences. Actually, the character bazaar does not embody the principle of "actions have consequence", at least not in a particularly impressive way. You have no control over how a character you will buy, and henceforth will embody, has behaved while amassing the SP you want. Their actions have consequences for you, but that's different from your principle. All you can do now is to act with due diligence, i.e., try to find out as much as you can about the character you buy. But that's damage control in a situation that has limited choices. For if you want a specific amount of SP, then you can only choose between characters that have that much SP. What is actually applying here is more the principle of "no pain, no gain." You appreciate the risk of getting stuck with a "bad history" character because it makes you pay for the advantage of switching out of your old character.
However, first, since apparently "clean" characters are raised just for selling them in the bazaar, the risk is actually not that high. In particular so if you know what to look for or have the right contacts. Second, if you have a lot of money, then this risk is meaningless. You can simply buy a character, and if it is bad, put it back on the bazaar and just buy the next one. Rinse and repeat until you find something suitable. People with deep pockets suffer no disadvantage here, other than a bit of hassle of iterating through a number of candidate bodies. The people with most experience, connections and ISK suffer least here.
Whereas in the proposed SP system, there is no potential badness attached to SP packages you buy. Here in fact your actions do have all the consequences: the character you build will be as it is because of how many SP packages you bought, and how you assigned them. Nobody else determines what kind of character you get, but you, by your actions. Furthermore, the "no pain, no gain" principle also applies. You will spend your hard earned cash. But perhaps more importantly, if you try to recycle your own character into a new one, you will pay for this with a considerable loss of SP! You lose 5M SP from the start (because you cannot extract below 5M SP), and then as you get to higher SP you get much less SP out of packet than you put in. Finally, these punishments do not strike those with most experience, connections and ISK least. They strike them hardest, because it becomes really, really costly to build up high SP this way. Of course, somebody who is super-rich may still not care, but at least a "bling character" comes with a massive "bling price" .
So in short, your assessment is exactly the wrong way around. The SP package system embodies your principles better than the character bazaar, and you should hence support it.
Myevil Gankalt wrote:I also don't like the idea of somebody buying 10 training alts as a farm to build one main character. Frankly, if you are willing to pay 10 times the subscription fees (or grind ten times more to PLEX) in order to speed advance one single character at considerably less than 10 times the speed, then good on you. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 07:39:06 -
[4374] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dynamus Deckerman wrote:General Lootit wrote:Myevil Gankalt wrote:This whole idea is just awful.
The main reason I am against it is that it undermines one of the core tenants of EVE: Actions have consequences. Consider myself. I am, and shall always be, an evil gank alt. This life style has consequences. There is a certain group of people who, for whatever reason, do not like me. They even target me in pvp! If I decide to try another life style, I should not be able to burn this alt and roll a nice one which is skilled over night. I realize there is a character bazaar, but that has issues. Any character I buy might very well have been involved in some scam or corporate theft. In short, there are consequences.
I also don't like the idea of somebody buying 10 training alts as a farm to build one main character. OK. Lets do math. Assume that person have 10m SP. How much it will be cost to transfer it to the new toon? Answer a half SP because you can't extract from character with less than 5m SP. Also extractors need to be paid. You still don't get it. No, he doesn't. He really really doesn't. Probably because he's (and I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here) still sufficiently new he's not been exposed to the lengths eve players will go to in order to get an advantage over others. I doubt he's experienced people on safaris, experiences corporate spy/sabotage/theft. Hell I doubt he's set foot out of highsec tbh. It's not so hard to do math by your own for any amout of SP and figure out that respecing and transfering to yours another toon is not so cheap to do it on regular base. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
75
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 08:07:32 -
[4375] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote:Dynamus Deckerman wrote:General Lootit wrote:Myevil Gankalt wrote:This whole idea is just awful.
The main reason I am against it is that it undermines one of the core tenants of EVE: Actions have consequences. Consider myself. I am, and shall always be, an evil gank alt. This life style has consequences. There is a certain group of people who, for whatever reason, do not like me. They even target me in pvp! If I decide to try another life style, I should not be able to burn this alt and roll a nice one which is skilled over night. I realize there is a character bazaar, but that has issues. Any character I buy might very well have been involved in some scam or corporate theft. In short, there are consequences.
I also don't like the idea of somebody buying 10 training alts as a farm to build one main character. OK. Lets do math. Assume that person have 10m SP. How much it will be cost to transfer it to the new toon? Answer a half SP because you can't extract from character with less than 5m SP. Also extractors need to be paid. You still don't get it. No, he doesn't. He really really doesn't. Probably because he's (and I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here) still sufficiently new he's not been exposed to the lengths eve players will go to in order to get an advantage over others. I doubt he's experienced people on safaris, experiences corporate spy/sabotage/theft. Hell I doubt he's set foot out of highsec tbh. It's not so hard to do math by your own for any amout of SP and figure out that respecing and transfering to yours another toon is not so cheap to do it on regular base.
General Lootit your priceless mate, you remind me of along time ago when we used to go roaming for macrominers with suicide alts, You'd bump them - nothing, start a chat with them and you get back a reply like - you drop rocks near boulders on house - We'd all fall about laughing then destroy it for some guy come along in an industrial just like Achmed .... i kill you i kill you all why you do this. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 08:22:30 -
[4376] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: General Lootit your priceless mate, you remind me of along time ago when we used to go roaming for macrominers with suicide alts, You'd bump them - nothing, start a chat with them and you get back a reply like - you drop rocks near boulders on house - We'd all fall about laughing then destroy it for some guy come along in an industrial just like Achmed .... i kill you i kill you all why you do this.
But I'm still doubt that you are a guy. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 08:28:57 -
[4377] - Quote
afkalt wrote: Hell I doubt he's set foot out of highsec tbh.
And you are still jerky and not thoughtful. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
133
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 08:33:12 -
[4378] - Quote
TheSmokingHertog wrote:Captain Africa wrote:TheSmokingHertog wrote:Skinzee wrote:Skinzee wrote:I have a question for ALL people that say this is a bad idea...
--- WHAT EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON YOU AS A PILOT IF THIS WOULD ACTUALLY GO LIVE? ---
There is already an option to buy 0-200m SP characters... Character Bazaar - (Thats Pay2Win if you look at it that way)
Would love someone to actually give me a valid answer to this question. As far as I can see, there is none. I do... Bitter vets would have more people around them that could fly high end doctrines like they do. Just by roaming off their own SP. Lemme throw this right back at you ...I had to wait 6 years to get my character trained up to be 145 mil sp do you think it fair that you would be able to achieve that by just buying sp and whalla ? Infact just **** off...**** that im outta here Thats not possible, CCP is capping the upwards sprint from each package you add in SP. Did you even read the blog?
It is possible, just more expensive.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
133
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 08:34:59 -
[4379] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i can't make anyone do ****.
if people want to leave, it won't be because i'm not saying "this idea is bad".
and i sure as **** ain't pandering to cry babies who's only answer is "i'mma unsub" - let them.
every time ccp make an announcement, some one says "i'll unsub if you do this". eve hasn't died yet, such threats are hollow and pathetic,
Eve has not died yet, but number of people logged in show that it is going in that direction for sure. And huge drop in them shows that those threats are obviously not hollow and pathetic. Seems they actually do it...
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
133
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 08:37:52 -
[4380] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i'm not gambling anything. i'm just refusing to scream "the sky is falling". and i didn't tell anyone to quit, they whined about that on their own.
If I was CCP and lost ~half of the customers in recent time, I would scream "the sky is falling" and do my best to fix things, not risk even more customers quiting...
And I feel the same form the players perspective, as someone who loves the game does not want it to crumble...
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
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Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
734
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 08:46:11 -
[4381] - Quote
TheSmokingHertog wrote:Captain Africa wrote:TheSmokingHertog wrote:Skinzee wrote:Skinzee wrote:I have a question for ALL people that say this is a bad idea...
--- WHAT EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON YOU AS A PILOT IF THIS WOULD ACTUALLY GO LIVE? ---
There is already an option to buy 0-200m SP characters... Character Bazaar - (Thats Pay2Win if you look at it that way)
Would love someone to actually give me a valid answer to this question. As far as I can see, there is none. I do... Bitter vets would have more people around them that could fly high end doctrines like they do. Just by roaming off their own SP. Lemme throw this right back at you ...I had to wait 6 years to get my character trained up to be 145 mil sp do you think it fair that you would be able to achieve that by just buying sp and whalla ? Infact just **** off...**** that im outta here Thats not possible, CCP is capping the upwards sprint from each package you add in SP. Did you even read the blog? Actually, it is possible. Did you read the blog?
It may cost you a bit to do but it is possible to just keep spending and lvling up. . At least until you reach 80 mil SP, which is what - About 3 years of game time investment today - Achieved with a few plex
Personally having to outlay isk or $ in the hope some new guy wants to buy my unwanted skills is something to be carefully considered. - - - - - - - - - - - - The more I think about diminishing returns, the more I'm thinking I won't be a part of this for my characters. Give up 500k SP to get 50k in return - and have to pay for the privilege. I think my unused SP can just stay where it is - Unused...
- - - - - - - - - I wonder - The market is a self regulating thing, everyone is out to buy as cheap as they can and sell for the highest possible price. SP sellers generally won't be in "need" of isk so prices will be regulated by what, when just about everything in Eve is about greed.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
460
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 08:50:48 -
[4382] - Quote
If you know you would lose 1/4 playerbase but earn 1/4 more than today would you still push it?
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 08:51:34 -
[4383] - Quote
Dynamus Deckerman wrote: I see only the instant gratifiers left playing this game when this feature hits. Question is will they and the others that follow such crowd outweigh the traditional players that leaves?
Who are "instant gratifiers"? Thats people who griding on SP or people who earned money and paying for our ability to get a free sub? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
78
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 09:09:11 -
[4384] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Dynamus Deckerman wrote: I see only the instant gratifiers left playing this game when this feature hits. Question is will they and the others that follow such crowd outweigh the traditional players that leaves?
Who are "instant gratifiers"? Thats people who griding on SP or people who earned money and paying for our ability to get a free sub? You only have to see in newb chat when you create a character these days, one of the most asked questions you see fly past amidst the help with fittings or where do i go is - How can i earn enough to get one of those plex and play for free.
Then you wonder why the subs base is on a downturn, Nobody is paying for my free sub because i dont have one. Ive always paid by card for my sub, Again i dont come here to see what i can grind hours and hours of endless monotony for i have fun 95% of the time and pay for it. Maybe thats the problem the people that always want things for free/the easy option have short attention spans, dont see the big picture and quit. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 09:21:56 -
[4385] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Dynamus Deckerman wrote: I see only the instant gratifiers left playing this game when this feature hits. Question is will they and the others that follow such crowd outweigh the traditional players that leaves?
Who are "instant gratifiers"? Thats people who griding on SP or people who earned money and paying for our ability to get a free sub? You only have to see in newb chat when you create a character these days, one of the most asked questions you see fly past amidst the help with fittings or where do i go is - How can i earn enough to get one of those plex and play for free. Then you wonder why the subs base is on a downturn, Nobody is paying for my free sub because i dont have one. Ive always paid by card for my sub, Again i dont come here to see what i can grind hours and hours of endless monotony for i have fun 95% of the time and pay for it. Maybe thats the problem the people that always want things for free/the easy option have short attention spans, dont see the big picture and quit. You forgot that I'm one of them and also was interested in how to grid for PLEX. And I did it.
If you refusing to earn isk than pay for them or you want them for doing nothing? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
79
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 09:39:05 -
[4386] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:You forgot that I'm one of them and also was interested in how to grid for PLEX. And I did it.
If you refusing to earn isk than pay for them or you want them for doing nothing?
Good for you so you spend half your free month doing what FW / mission running thats so productive of you.
I log on and do whatever the hell i like because at the end of the 30 day period its starts again i dont think crap gotta start getting the money together for a plex again, I earn plenty of isk probably make your eyes water but again ive invested years into what i have, i dont take things for granted and i dont expect things for free - Theres my motivation.
Infact i probably hand out more free things like retreivers and drake / caracals and handouts than you probably even make in a month. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2273
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 09:45:53 -
[4387] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Dynamus Deckerman wrote: I see only the instant gratifiers left playing this game when this feature hits. Question is will they and the others that follow such crowd outweigh the traditional players that leaves?
Who are "instant gratifiers"? Thats people who griding on SP or people who earned money and paying for our ability to get a free sub? You only have to see in newb chat when you create a character these days, one of the most asked questions you see fly past amidst the help with fittings or where do i go is - How can i earn enough to get one of those plex and play for free. Then you wonder why the subs base is on a downturn, Nobody is paying for my free sub because i dont have one. Ive always paid by card for my sub, Again i dont come here to see what i can grind hours and hours of endless monotony for i have fun 95% of the time and pay for it. Maybe thats the problem the people that always want things for free/the easy option have short attention spans, dont see the big picture and quit. You forgot that I'm one of them and also was interested in how to grid for PLEX. And I did it. If you refusing to earn isk than pay for them or you want them for doing nothing?
No-one said it was hard to grind for plex, what people are saying is that doing it as a newbro - for the most part - is utterly soul crushing and has a tendency to burn people out. Probably because the time it takes precludes everything else.
And here we are about to pull the trigger on putting even more pressure on newbros to chase the isk; instead of chasing the fun. Fun is what keeps people playing, not a second space job.
Give newbies a leg up, by all means, I fully supported the recent starting skill changes, for example. A whole revamp of the NPE. Hell give them skills to rock out the door in a fully T2 fit frigate - that'd be ideal.
But this, even setting aside all the hilarious things vets can and will do with it, pushing people into PvE....it's a horrible, horrible idea. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 10:14:57 -
[4388] - Quote
afkalt wrote: No-one said it was hard to grind for plex, what people are saying is that doing it as a newbro - for the most part - is utterly soul crushing and has a tendency to burn people out. Probably because the time it takes precludes everything else.
And here we are about to pull the trigger on putting even more pressure on newbros to chase the isk; instead of chasing the fun. Fun is what keeps people playing, not a second space job.
I didn't said either that griding is hard to do. It's also time consuming but less than waiting the quee and I want to trade my griding time to SP. "Fun" in yours meaning isn't pays for itself but I had some fun while griding by chating people who also doing this.
It's not a pressure - it's an option. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
80
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 10:23:26 -
[4389] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote: No-one said it was hard to grind for plex, what people are saying is that doing it as a newbro - for the most part - is utterly soul crushing and has a tendency to burn people out. Probably because the time it takes precludes everything else.
And here we are about to pull the trigger on putting even more pressure on newbros to chase the isk; instead of chasing the fun. Fun is what keeps people playing, not a second space job.
I didn't said either that griding is hard to do. It's also time consuming but less than waiting the quee and I want to trade my griding time to SP. Fun isn't pays for itself. It's not a pressure - it's an option.
So by your own admission your prefering the instant gratification mode over working for something, any fool can grind.
You either grind for plex then or you sit station spinning watching your skillpoints go up, You really have truely embraced what eve is all about. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2274
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 10:30:28 -
[4390] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote: No-one said it was hard to grind for plex, what people are saying is that doing it as a newbro - for the most part - is utterly soul crushing and has a tendency to burn people out. Probably because the time it takes precludes everything else.
And here we are about to pull the trigger on putting even more pressure on newbros to chase the isk; instead of chasing the fun. Fun is what keeps people playing, not a second space job.
I didn't said either that griding is hard to do. It's also time consuming but less than waiting the quee and I want to trade my griding time to SP. "Fun" in yours meaning isn't pays for itself but I had some fun while griding by chating people who also doing this. It's not a pressure - it's an option.
You say on one hand that it is an option, yet earlier you say you feel pressued to catch vets.
You have to pick one and only one, really.
See thing is, whilst you're waiting on teh training queue, you can be playing the game. How fast to fly a gankalyst again? 20 minutes now? Fly with Code, explode stuff, have fun whilst the queue is ticking.
The only thing locking you into a gameplay style until XXXX trains is you. Unless you're a focused super sitter, but if that were the case we would not be having this conversation. |
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 10:34:27 -
[4391] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:
So by your own admission your prefering the instant gratification mode over working for something, any fool can grind.
Only if working is instant gratification. But it's defenetly not "instant". |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 10:53:16 -
[4392] - Quote
afkalt wrote:General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote: No-one said it was hard to grind for plex, what people are saying is that doing it as a newbro - for the most part - is utterly soul crushing and has a tendency to burn people out. Probably because the time it takes precludes everything else.
And here we are about to pull the trigger on putting even more pressure on newbros to chase the isk; instead of chasing the fun. Fun is what keeps people playing, not a second space job.
I didn't said either that griding is hard to do. It's also time consuming but less than waiting the quee and I want to trade my griding time to SP. "Fun" in yours meaning isn't pays for itself but I had some fun while griding by chating people who also doing this. It's not a pressure - it's an option. You say on one hand that it is an option, yet earlier you say you feel pressued to catch vets. Yes I did. But it's one of the reasons. I even don't mind if vets will have benefit from it.
afkalt wrote: See thing is, whilst you're waiting on teh training queue, you can be playing the game. How fast to fly a gankalyst again? 20 minutes now? Fly with Code, explode stuff, have fun whilst the queue is ticking.
The only thing locking you into a gameplay style until XXXX trains is you. Unless you're a focused super sitter, but if that were the case we would not be having this conversation.
I have plan to do and it's requiring SP. I'm defenetly wont change it when some stranger tell me to do so. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
80
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 10:53:52 -
[4393] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:
So by your own admission your prefering the instant gratification mode over working for something, any fool can grind.
Only if working is instant gratification. But it's defenetly not "instant".
If you would of said Grinding for fun i could accept that but not "griding time to SP" - What happens when you start grinding for sp's then are you going to actually pay for your subscription or you hoping to grind now even more for plex and sp's - where does your space job end and your fun start, skillpoints will only make so much easier as youve so often pointed out . |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2274
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 10:55:00 -
[4394] - Quote
So why can you do nothing whilst it cooks?
Your posting doesn't make any sense, you contradict yourself and/or place glass walls around you and try and say the game is doing this. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 11:05:26 -
[4395] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:
So by your own admission your prefering the instant gratification mode over working for something, any fool can grind.
Only if working is instant gratification. But it's defenetly not "instant". If you would of said Grinding for fun i could accept that but not "griding time to SP" - What happens when you start grinding for sp's then are you going to actually pay for your subscription or you hoping to grind now even more for plex and sp's - where does your space job end and your fun start, skillpoints will only make it so much easier as youve so often pointed out . I refer to ours old convestion
Jeremiah Saken wrote: They may earn money this way at start, but insta gratification crowd has short focus plane, and gets boring fast.
Levi Belvar wrote: instant gratification mode
I feel that I have right to be jerky with you becase you did so. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1807
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 11:11:04 -
[4396] - Quote
afkalt wrote:So why can you do nothing whilst it cooks?
...
Just think how frustrated new players will be when they buy shiny manufacture/invention/research skills and find out they have to wait for things to cook/succeed....oh wait...then they'll demand all products are simply delivered instantly if they pay more... |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 11:11:16 -
[4397] - Quote
afkalt wrote: Your posting doesn't make any sense, you contradict yourself and/or place glass walls around you and try and say the game is doing this.
Peoples like Levi doesn't bother about it so why I should? Force him to admite that he was wrong in something and I will answer you. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
80
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 11:11:56 -
[4398] - Quote
So youve now come to a point where you cannot give me an answer then, It has become a space job and i dont have time to do anything else but grind in pursuit of skillpoints and freeplay.
Outstanding, shall we resume this conversation is 6 to 12 months if your still around in the land of the Freebie. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 11:12:44 -
[4399] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:If you know you would lose 1/4 playerbase but earn 1/4 more than today would you still push it?
"Research on loyalty has found that increasing customer retention by as little as 5 percent can increase profits by 25 to 95 percent."
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
734
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 11:13:24 -
[4400] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Dynamus Deckerman wrote: I see only the instant gratifiers left playing this game when this feature hits. Question is will they and the others that follow such crowd outweigh the traditional players that leaves?
Who are "instant gratifiers"? Thats people who griding on SP or people who earned money and paying for our ability to get a free sub? Presuming your not a scammer or thief. How long does it take you to grind for your "free" sub each month? You sound like the miner who says he can build ships for "free" because he mines the minerals.
Nothing in Eve is "free" - Your time has value - How much you value your time is down to you.
On topic - Any SP you sell has value, you took the time to train it. Right now 1 SP is worth about 6,400 isk - 320 mil for 500k is break even. 320 mil isk for 500k SP + Aurum for SP packet + Player greed = More than many of the target audience will be able to pay.
If CCP can attract the rich and idle and get them to buy plex by the bucket load, this little venture may turn a profit. That is, if the game has something to offer these people, something to grab the world of gamers and make them want to play (CCP hasn't had a great deal of media attention since B-R and as that is never likely to be repeated, they need to find "something" to attract new players), clear guides on how to use the SP they just spent a few hundred dollars on and a much better NPE than what currently exists.
A niche game with a niche market isn't going to become mainstream simply because the rich can "pay to win". In my experience, they also bore easily and move on if the thrill isn't = to the cost (right now eve is far from that) You want to increase the games appeal - It has to appeal to and offer the every day gamer something - The ability to buy SP at inflated prices won't do that.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
|
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
80
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 11:19:57 -
[4401] - Quote
Dror wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:If you know you would lose 1/4 playerbase but earn 1/4 more than today would you still push it?
"Research on loyalty has found that increasing customer retention by as little as 5 percent can increase profits by 25 to 95 percent."
Based on free 2 play models where you contantly sticking in your hand in your pocket looking for that slight advantage. That a really poor comparison. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 11:21:52 -
[4402] - Quote
afkalt wrote:General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote: No-one said it was hard to grind for plex, what people are saying is that doing it as a newbro - for the most part - is utterly soul crushing and has a tendency to burn people out. Probably because the time it takes precludes everything else.
And here we are about to pull the trigger on putting even more pressure on newbros to chase the isk; instead of chasing the fun. Fun is what keeps people playing, not a second space job.
I didn't said either that griding is hard to do. It's also time consuming but less than waiting the quee and I want to trade my griding time to SP. "Fun" in yours meaning isn't pays for itself but I had some fun while griding by chating people who also doing this. It's not a pressure - it's an option. You say on one hand that it is an option, yet earlier you say you feel pressued to catch vets. You have to pick one and only one, really. See thing is, whilst you're waiting on teh training queue, you can be playing the game. How fast to fly a gankalyst again? 20 minutes now? Fly with Code, explode stuff, have fun whilst the queue is ticking. The only thing locking you into a gameplay style until XXXX trains is you. Unless you're a focused super sitter, but if that were the case we would not be having this conversation. You're pretending like you know what's motivating and, in the same sentence, implying that some 1-10M SP should retain subs. Except, those subs have come for the gameplay of 400M SP, because that's of what the stories and advertisements are.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
201
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 11:25:52 -
[4403] - Quote
Dynamus Deckerman wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Dave Stark wrote:considering after a month 50% of people quit, and 40% of them are "leveling their raven" would it really be so bad if grinding pve were used to "level up" by buying SP with their money? i mean, if 40% of people, which are 80% of the remaining players after 1 month are doing it - surely there's a market for that type of gameplay? they're still out in space, you can still go and mess with them. Just give up and quit your job as an Eve Dev for coming up with this abominable idea. I'm losing all interest to log in anymore thanks to you. the door's got a closer on it, don't let it hit you on the way out. Are you trying to get people to quit Eve just because they don't agree with your philosophy? If you are someone from the Eve marketing department then you should be reprimanded for posting such a indecorous remark. Are you're an ally of CCP or an Enemy. Seems to me that you're probably the later because it's clear you don't give a lick of concern about the players and only about how much you can milk from this game. So far, from all your post all you point out is that it would make no difference from buying char from Eve Bazaar, yada, yada. But you're forgetting something important dude, something someone who's only interested in the money aspect of Eve can't comprehend. And that is the fun aspect of Eve. I'm playing Eve because I'm enjoying the game. What you're proposing is going to subtract from that and worst thing about it is that you don't even seem to notice. You lack the ability to comprehend what draws people to play Eve which alone is reason enough for players to ignore anything you have to say in this post. If you really are some sort of representative in the marketing department of Eve then you really should step down and stop this post before you make more people contemplate on quitting Eve.
I'm not gonna do anything as rash as that just yet, mostly because I still have a lot of gaming time left and it's not guaranteed that this fail Dev alt has the final say in this. He's clueless about Eve just as you say and the only thing he see in Eve is how it can make more money instead of trying to improve the game. I'm gonna step away from Eve for 2-3 months and check back later to see how things have paned out then. If the game has decided to go the Dave's route then I'll know Eve's time has come at last and It'll be time to step down from this game for good.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1807
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 11:27:00 -
[4404] - Quote
Dror wrote:afkalt wrote:General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote: No-one said it was hard to grind for plex, what people are saying is that doing it as a newbro - for the most part - is utterly soul crushing and has a tendency to burn people out. Probably because the time it takes precludes everything else.
And here we are about to pull the trigger on putting even more pressure on newbros to chase the isk; instead of chasing the fun. Fun is what keeps people playing, not a second space job.
I didn't said either that griding is hard to do. It's also time consuming but less than waiting the quee and I want to trade my griding time to SP. "Fun" in yours meaning isn't pays for itself but I had some fun while griding by chating people who also doing this. It's not a pressure - it's an option. You say on one hand that it is an option, yet earlier you say you feel pressued to catch vets. You have to pick one and only one, really. See thing is, whilst you're waiting on teh training queue, you can be playing the game. How fast to fly a gankalyst again? 20 minutes now? Fly with Code, explode stuff, have fun whilst the queue is ticking. The only thing locking you into a gameplay style until XXXX trains is you. Unless you're a focused super sitter, but if that were the case we would not be having this conversation. You're pretending like you know what's motivating and, in the same sentence, implying that some 1-10M SP should retain subs. Except, those subs have come for the gameplay of 400M SP, because that's of what the stories and advertisements are.
If by that you mean B-R then that isn't gameplay and never can be. It was a one off unique event. It is impossible that it could occur very often (if at all again) due to the nature of that event. Gameplay is focused around small group interaction mainly with some large groups involved in Sov/Wardecs etc. To advocate changing something as fundamental as the skill system based on one off events is misleading. It has been pointed out before that if players are coming in thinking that B-R happens all the time it is the fault of the advertising, not the game mechanics. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
82
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 11:29:55 -
[4405] - Quote
Dror wrote:afkalt wrote:General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote: No-one said it was hard to grind for plex, what people are saying is that doing it as a newbro - for the most part - is utterly soul crushing and has a tendency to burn people out. Probably because the time it takes precludes everything else.
And here we are about to pull the trigger on putting even more pressure on newbros to chase the isk; instead of chasing the fun. Fun is what keeps people playing, not a second space job.
I didn't said either that griding is hard to do. It's also time consuming but less than waiting the quee and I want to trade my griding time to SP. "Fun" in yours meaning isn't pays for itself but I had some fun while griding by chating people who also doing this. It's not a pressure - it's an option. You say on one hand that it is an option, yet earlier you say you feel pressued to catch vets. You have to pick one and only one, really. See thing is, whilst you're waiting on teh training queue, you can be playing the game. How fast to fly a gankalyst again? 20 minutes now? Fly with Code, explode stuff, have fun whilst the queue is ticking. The only thing locking you into a gameplay style until XXXX trains is you. Unless you're a focused super sitter, but if that were the case we would not be having this conversation. You're pretending like you know what's motivating and, in the same sentence, implying that some 1-10M SP should retain subs. Except, those subs have come for the gameplay of 400M SP, because that's of what the stories and advertisements are.
Your the one who's been quoting Research shows this and Motivation proves XYZ without showing anything That my friend is nothing short of proof gaming and means nothing. I wrote earlier what does and has motivated me in playing the game for 10 years. There is the old adage" If it aint broke dont fix it" |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 11:30:23 -
[4406] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote:afkalt wrote:General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote: No-one said it was hard to grind for plex, what people are saying is that doing it as a newbro - for the most part - is utterly soul crushing and has a tendency to burn people out. Probably because the time it takes precludes everything else.
And here we are about to pull the trigger on putting even more pressure on newbros to chase the isk; instead of chasing the fun. Fun is what keeps people playing, not a second space job.
I didn't said either that griding is hard to do. It's also time consuming but less than waiting the quee and I want to trade my griding time to SP. "Fun" in yours meaning isn't pays for itself but I had some fun while griding by chating people who also doing this. It's not a pressure - it's an option. You say on one hand that it is an option, yet earlier you say you feel pressued to catch vets. You have to pick one and only one, really. See thing is, whilst you're waiting on teh training queue, you can be playing the game. How fast to fly a gankalyst again? 20 minutes now? Fly with Code, explode stuff, have fun whilst the queue is ticking. The only thing locking you into a gameplay style until XXXX trains is you. Unless you're a focused super sitter, but if that were the case we would not be having this conversation. You're pretending like you know what's motivating and, in the same sentence, implying that some 1-10M SP should retain subs. Except, those subs have come for the gameplay of 400M SP, because that's of what the stories and advertisements are. If by that you mean B-R then that isn't gameplay and never can be. It was a one off unique event. It is impossible that it could occur very often (if at all again) due to the nature of that event. Gameplay is focused around small group interaction mainly with some large groups involved in Sov/Wardecs etc. To advocate changing something as fundamental as the skill system based on one off events is misleading. It has been pointed out before that if players are coming in thinking that B-R happens all the time it is the fault of the advertising, not the game mechanics. No. There is no implication for that.
SP effects everything in the game -- pick a topic? Motivation, competitiveness, mastery, depth, socialization, referrals, diversity..
Edit @ Levi Belvar: You're not arguing about the value of the experience, but saying that it's possible to enjoy. Protip: the demographic that enjoys paying the equivalent of hundreds of dollars just to enjoy an MMO is a tiny minority.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
462
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 11:44:04 -
[4407] - Quote
Dror wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:If you know you would lose 1/4 playerbase but earn 1/4 more than today would you still push it? "Research on loyalty has found that increasing customer retention by as little as 5 percent can increase profits by 25 to 95 percent." Funny, mobile communication corps don't do this at all. In fact they do the oppossite. They "grind" new customers. Loyality programs are giving less than new customers bonuses. At least in my country. Cicrus is rolling endlessly. I think research was good but model can't be fit to any conditions.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
84
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 11:44:23 -
[4408] - Quote
Dror wrote:SP effects everything in the game -- pick a topic? Motivation, competitiveness, mastery, depth, socialization, referrals, diversity..
How long have you been playing the game, what has motivated you to continue to play something that has such fundamental flaws. Are you driven as General Lootit to only find your progression through means of grinding to pay is there nothing to spark your imagination to affect other players around you.
Why do you even play it ?
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 11:47:39 -
[4409] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Nothing in Eve is "free" - Your time has value.
Totally agree with - time has value. But what time more valuable for gameplay. That time what you spend offline while skill training or time when you actually playing?
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
266
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 11:49:40 -
[4410] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Dynamus Deckerman wrote:Add Pay2Win, and this enthusiasm will vanish which will probably lead me into unsubbing also.
Today I re-subbed only because I want to support this idea. It will be your choice. We already figured out that it's not a pay2win feature because experience>skill points in PVP. I've been ignoring your drivel for some time now as it is obvious you are a troll and do not speak for new players at all.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 11:51:48 -
[4411] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:SP effects everything in the game -- pick a topic? Motivation, competitiveness, mastery, depth, socialization, referrals, diversity.. How long have you been playing the game, what has motivated you to continue to play something that has such fundamental flaws. Are you driven as General Lootit to only find your progression through means of grinding to pay is there nothing to spark your imagination to affect other players around you. Why do you even play it ? I dont want research, protips anything else just Your views. Beware Dror it's a trap |
Metal Hunter
The Explorers Club
71
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 11:55:01 -
[4412] - Quote
I against this innovation. As well as most of Russian-speaking players. |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
1050
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 12:01:46 -
[4413] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:I'm gonna step away from Eve for 2-3 months and check back later to see how things have paned out then.
This is what everyone is doing. Don't forget to troll the forums during your AFK for maximum bitter vetness.
Not today spaghetti.
|
Metal Hunter
The Explorers Club
72
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 12:02:57 -
[4414] - Quote
And can do some shooting as a protest in something as when that in Jita system? What it is possible to destroy? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 12:04:57 -
[4415] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:SP effects everything in the game -- pick a topic? Motivation, competitiveness, mastery, depth, socialization, referrals, diversity.. How long have you been playing the game, what has motivated you to continue to play something that has such fundamental flaws. Are you driven as General Lootit to only find your progression through means of grinding to pay is there nothing to spark your imagination to affect other players around you. Why do you even play it ? I dont want research, protips anything else just Your views. Beware Dror it's a trap He just want to proof that you are wrong. And he's to lazy to read it all.
I've read everything, just because you've been backed into a corner and cannot defend the reason behind your statements does not illicite any reference that everyone subscribing the changes can't. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2275
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 12:12:31 -
[4416] - Quote
Dror wrote:afkalt wrote:General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote: No-one said it was hard to grind for plex, what people are saying is that doing it as a newbro - for the most part - is utterly soul crushing and has a tendency to burn people out. Probably because the time it takes precludes everything else.
And here we are about to pull the trigger on putting even more pressure on newbros to chase the isk; instead of chasing the fun. Fun is what keeps people playing, not a second space job.
I didn't said either that griding is hard to do. It's also time consuming but less than waiting the quee and I want to trade my griding time to SP. "Fun" in yours meaning isn't pays for itself but I had some fun while griding by chating people who also doing this. It's not a pressure - it's an option. You say on one hand that it is an option, yet earlier you say you feel pressued to catch vets. You have to pick one and only one, really. See thing is, whilst you're waiting on teh training queue, you can be playing the game. How fast to fly a gankalyst again? 20 minutes now? Fly with Code, explode stuff, have fun whilst the queue is ticking. The only thing locking you into a gameplay style until XXXX trains is you. Unless you're a focused super sitter, but if that were the case we would not be having this conversation. You're pretending like you know what's motivating and, in the same sentence, implying that some 1-10M SP should retain subs. Except, those subs have come for the gameplay of 400M SP, because that's of what the stories and advertisements are.
Dror wrote:Except, those subs have come for the gameplay of 400M SP
Except of those 400m skill points, far and away the majority are mutually exclusive. They do not help each other.
For example I have over 11 million skillpoints in gunnery alone and a further 6 million in drones....which are completely worthless when I fly a cerberus.
So then, a newbean who has trained the heady heights of heavy missile spec IV (which days @4 days, by the way) will actually for that cerberus BETTER than me.
When I'm flying my omen navy issue, tell me how much use I'm getting from my skill points in missiles, or in drones. Let's not forget my minig skills from my newbie days, or my trade skills. Yes, they all make me fly the ship better than a newbie who focused. Except...wait...they do not.
See what you need to wrap your head around the fact that SP = versatility and that is ALL. There is an extremely limited SP cap where a given role or hull is concerned and THAT is the only level available to compete.
Consider: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YReUNRTGcXo you can sit in that ship in under a fortnight, as I recall correctly.
Or perhaps this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je5UPKssuiE toon has less than 4m skill points.
Whilst I absolutely agree that high SP makes moving doctrines to react to a meta shift easier, it makes little to no difference to combat effectiveness if a pilot focuses.
Now of course, this is where people clamour "but if that is true then why are you so against it, clearly we have caught you in a fib". Except that is disingenuous - I am against it because newbies can't see this (half the posts in this thread including your own are proof concrete), I'm against it because it'll pressure newbeans to grind like mad things and burn out, it'll increase already record high risk aversity. In short, it will stifle content and push newbros down a completely undesirable path based on false hopes that "just one more rank and I can compete".
Reminder: What stops you having fun and competing - is you and only you*.
*Super jocks need not apply. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 12:31:52 -
[4417] - Quote
Thanks all for having discussion(Yes Levi it's happaning). It was fun even more funny than chating in-game. I'm going to Dave from Marketing department to drink couple of coffee Good luck everyone! |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1810
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 12:44:45 -
[4418] - Quote
Dror wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:...
If by that you mean B-R then that isn't gameplay and never can be. It was a one off unique event. It is impossible that it could occur very often (if at all again) due to the nature of that event. Gameplay is focused around small group interaction mainly with some large groups involved in Sov/Wardecs etc. To advocate changing something as fundamental as the skill system based on one off events is misleading. It has been pointed out before that if players are coming in thinking that B-R happens all the time it is the fault of the advertising, not the game mechanics. No. There is no implication for that. SP effects everything in the game -- pick a topic? Motivation, competitiveness, mastery, depth, socialization, referrals, diversity.. ...
Pick a topic and show me which one requires 400 mil SP to take part in? I have around 40 mil and do everything other than moon mining(and that's because i'm not interested in nullsec). That's a 10th of the SP you claim is required. I don't remember adverts saying anywhere that you need vast amounts of SP to play. The 'I was there' ad? Centres around someone flying a frig through a battle. The ghost site ad? That uses SoE ships which are entirely viable for exploration with meta fits.
Your claims that a player needs max skills to be competitive are utter fallacy as proved by all the players in game who have not got maximum SP yet somehow remain competitive in the areas they have chosen to train into. |
Dave Stark
7635
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 12:53:14 -
[4419] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Thanks all for having discussion(Yes Levi it's happaning). It was fun even more funny than chating in-game. I'm going to Dave from Marketing department to drink couple of coffee Good luck everyone!
Bring sugar. We've run out up here. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
477
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 12:59:35 -
[4420] - Quote
You need just under 21mill SP to make over 200mill/h. this can either be obtained through a year's worth of skill training or you can drop a couple plexes. If you can't afford the whole 21mill you can get away with around half it and probably put out around 100mill. Thinking about releasing a guide soon with everything needed.
Wonder what that kind of influx of isk and LP will do to the game's market combined with easy access to instant skillpoints. Instant HS alts for everyone?
Fun times ahead |
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2280
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 13:01:50 -
[4421] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:You need just under 21mill SP to make over 200mill/h. this can either be obtained through a year's worth of skill training or you can drop a couple plexes. If you can't afford the whole 21mill you can get away with around half it and probably put out around 100mill. Thinking about releasing a guide soon with everything needed. Wonder what that kind of influx of isk and LP will do to the game's market combined with easy access to instant skillpoints. Instant HS alts for everyone? Fun times ahead
That's weird because I trained up two alts which can handle C3 WHs together in approx 2 months and 2 days. They could scale up too, if other people had some.
Spider domis, T2 sentries, sub 5m skill points.
21m is well over the top. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 13:05:03 -
[4422] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dror wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:If you know you would lose 1/4 playerbase but earn 1/4 more than today would you still push it? "Research on loyalty has found that increasing customer retention by as little as 5 percent can increase profits by 25 to 95 percent." Funny, mobile communication corps don't do this at all. In fact they do the oppossite. They "grind" new customers. Loyality programs are giving less than new customers bonuses. At least in my country. Cicrus is rolling endlessly. I think research was good but model can't be fit to any conditions. Mobile phones? There's no reason to keep customers motivated, though, because those have to have that service.
Of course, there's no similarity.
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:SP effects everything in the game -- pick a topic? Motivation, competitiveness, mastery, depth, socialization, referrals, diversity.. How long have you been playing the game, what has motivated you to continue to play something that has such fundamental flaws. Are you driven as General Lootit to only find your progression through means of grinding to pay is there nothing to spark your imagination to affect other players around you. Why do you even play it ? I dont want research, protips anything else just Your views. I started playing where PLEX was 500-600M. I found some Goons training queue and set it. Then, I found out that basically the most money I could make was with FW plexing. I did that, and though I basically got the amount, I just paid the sub because it was way too much investment for almost no entertainment. I eventually quit, because I was that noobie who tried reprocessing to no efficiency, checked out industry to no profit margins, and found nothing (of depth) but the inefficiency of click-approach, etc., with seemingly no alternative. Playing that much, for PLEXing, and just orbiting beacons -- and without any better alternative, apparently! All I was there for was to feel competitive and relevant, but the game set out nothing in the form of diversity, as the stories had come.. nor of the fantasies and expectations of a sandbox game.
There was some hub bashing and fleeting, but I quit because of the whole experience. There's a lot keeping fresh characters from interesting corporation experiences, but it's mostly just interest in the game. If they're sustained because of dedication to (quite anonymous) socialization, are they really that well retained?
I came back around the faction redesign for "6M free SP". I actually started a bunch of characters; and starter-pack CD keys were on sale. The plan was to make a bunch of BC V characters (with no support skills, obviously), sell them on the market, and get a decent main. Some way through (before unlimited skill queues), I realized that I wasn't even playing the game.. just setting skills, with the idea that the game would be deep with more SP. On my main, I had trained scanning skills, support skills, fitting skills, and tried lots of areas and interests. Nothing could match FW's payout, especially with that level of market experience and SP.
There was obviously finding the problem that apparently no character had maxed SP -- it was just a huge carrot -- and I could find no character on the bazaar with the design depth of mine. So, I stopped logging in, fugging up about 80% of the characters.
I came back more recently because of finding out about a buddy playing. I joined his corporation, fulfilled the newbie tackle role, and enjoyed it a lot. I ended up top 3 in the corp -- in both position and KBs. Yet, most of the corporation was newbies, because that's apparently what most recruits are -- and training them comes with absolutely no diversity. "Here's an Atron or a Griffin. Enjoy." I'm not training them to 10v1 in a Raven. "How do I make money?" Beacons, innit! The game was still entertaining, though, because we dec'd Brave, located in Catch. Then, they got evicted.
In and out of a few alliances, our corp, through low and null -- there was no place for us, and because we couldn't efficiently progress through more powerful fleet comps, there was no potential for.. really even finding a place in just low or null. Every region we tried had that corp in T3s.. gate-camping in Cynabals and Gnosis. That's obviously beyond FW, so making money comes with problems, especially for the newbies incoming, who still require training. At that point, though, the corp had lost most of its interest -- the veterans weren't logging on, and the newbies weren't finding anything to do. Seems like an SP problem. Doesn't it?
I eventually, post-corp, found manual piloting; but that required even more (core) skills.. and ISK that I wasn't interested in playing for (especially without a potential fleet). The buddy who originally recruited me quit corp before I did, and he recently mentioned regretting spending so much on the game. There's a very definite juxtaposition that has to be fulfilled, and it doesn't even have to come from combat playstyles. Just logging on to set industry queues could have kept our comms filled.
1/?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 13:07:31 -
[4423] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:...
If by that you mean B-R then that isn't gameplay and never can be. It was a one off unique event. It is impossible that it could occur very often (if at all again) due to the nature of that event. Gameplay is focused around small group interaction mainly with some large groups involved in Sov/Wardecs etc. To advocate changing something as fundamental as the skill system based on one off events is misleading. It has been pointed out before that if players are coming in thinking that B-R happens all the time it is the fault of the advertising, not the game mechanics. No. There is no implication for that. SP effects everything in the game -- pick a topic? Motivation, competitiveness, mastery, depth, socialization, referrals, diversity.. ... Pick a topic and show me which one requires 400 mil SP to take part in? I have around 40 mil and do everything other than moon mining(and that's because i'm not interested in nullsec). That's a 10th of the SP you claim is required. I don't remember adverts saying anywhere that you need vast amounts of SP to play. The 'I was there' ad? Centres around someone flying a frig through a battle. The ghost site ad? That uses SoE ships which are entirely viable for exploration with meta fits. Your claims that a player needs max skills to be competitive are utter fallacy as proved by all the players in game who have not got maximum SP yet somehow remain competitive in the areas they have chosen to train into. You're reducing to absurdity. 40M SP is much less than a newbie gets. Again, there's a deep game beyond SP. That's where the sustain and referral potential is.
The design has more for an experience (and on the line) than every possible sub grinding out 13-30B for their relevant interests.
Quote:"Research on loyalty has found that increasing customer retention by as little as 5 percent can increase profits by 25 to 95 percent." Subs can come and go, but if they have a great reason to stay and refer others, that's well above a 5 percent increase.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121116160946.htm "To build a player's feeling of ownership towards its character, game makers should provide equal opportunities for any character to win a battle."
Wow, it's like science.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1811
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 13:11:12 -
[4424] - Quote
Dror wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Pick a topic and show me which one requires 400 mil SP to take part in? I have around 40 mil and do everything other than moon mining(and that's because i'm not interested in nullsec). That's a 10th of the SP you claim is required. I don't remember adverts saying anywhere that you need vast amounts of SP to play. The 'I was there' ad? Centres around someone flying a frig through a battle. The ghost site ad? That uses SoE ships which are entirely viable for exploration with meta fits.
Your claims that a player needs max skills to be competitive are utter fallacy as proved by all the players in game who have not got maximum SP yet somehow remain competitive in the areas they have chosen to train into.
You're reducing to absurdity. 40M SP is much less than a newbie gets. Again, there's a deep game beyond SP. That's where the sustain and referral potential is. The design has more for an experience (and on the line) than every possible sub grinding out 13-30B for their relevant interests. Quote:"Research on loyalty has found that increasing customer retention by as little as 5 percent can increase profits by 25 to 95 percent." Subs can come and go, but if they have a great reason to stay and refer others, that's well above a 5 percent increase. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121116160946.htm "To build a player's feeling of ownership towards its character, game makers should provide equal opportunities for any character to win a battle." Wow, it's like science.
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2281
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 13:12:42 -
[4425] - Quote
Dror wrote:Quote:"Research on loyalty has found that increasing customer retention by as little as 5 percent can increase profits by 25 to 95 percent." Subs can come and go, but if they have a great reason to stay and refer others, that's well above a 5 percent increase. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121116160946.htm "To build a player's feeling of ownership towards its character, game makers should provide equal opportunities for any character to win a battle." Wow, it's like science.
You keep posting this in support of a development which we all know is liable to drive newbros into a retention toxic environment.
Yes, it is like science, but your book appears to be upside down and missing several pages.
Ed: And the kestrel videos I linked can be done in under 2 months. Which is far from shabby in a game with so much to learn. Probably much less now with the new skills. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
477
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 13:42:30 -
[4426] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:You need just under 21mill SP to make over 200mill/h. this can either be obtained through a year's worth of skill training or you can drop a couple plexes. If you can't afford the whole 21mill you can get away with around half it and probably put out around 100mill. Thinking about releasing a guide soon with everything needed. Wonder what that kind of influx of isk and LP will do to the game's market combined with easy access to instant skillpoints. Instant HS alts for everyone? Fun times ahead That's weird because I trained up two alts which can handle C3 WHs together in approx 2 months and 2 days. They could scale up too, if other people had some. Spider domis, T2 sentries, sub 5m skill points. 21m is well over the top. Yes, but that's WH space. You dont have any isk till it makes it out of the WH and into a HS trade hub/npc buyer. WHs also aren't exactly the most new player friendly space. A lot of mechanics that you'd need to learn compared to the themerk content in HS. HS is relatively 'safe' compared to WH space. No local, bubbles, cloaky ships, ships invisible on d-scan... all kinds of things can go wrong. And lets face it, not a lot of new players are going to hop into WH space and be able to do anything other than explode. Some might and that's good, but not most.
I miss wh space |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2281
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 13:46:20 -
[4427] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:afkalt wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:You need just under 21mill SP to make over 200mill/h. this can either be obtained through a year's worth of skill training or you can drop a couple plexes. If you can't afford the whole 21mill you can get away with around half it and probably put out around 100mill. Thinking about releasing a guide soon with everything needed. Wonder what that kind of influx of isk and LP will do to the game's market combined with easy access to instant skillpoints. Instant HS alts for everyone? Fun times ahead That's weird because I trained up two alts which can handle C3 WHs together in approx 2 months and 2 days. They could scale up too, if other people had some. Spider domis, T2 sentries, sub 5m skill points. 21m is well over the top. Yes, but that's WH space. You dont have any isk till it makes it out of the WH and into a HS trade hub/npc buyer. WHs also aren't exactly the most new player friendly space. A lot of mechanics that you'd need to learn compared to the themerk content in HS. HS is relatively 'safe' compared to WH space. No local, bubbles, cloaky ships, ships invisible on d-scan... all kinds of things can go wrong. And lets face it, not a lot of new players are going to hop into WH space and be able to do anything other than explode. Some might and that's good, but not most. I miss wh space
Well keep in mind if I can do WH, it can roflstomp level 4s too.
My point is, for less than 5m SP you can have a pilot trained up to do something really pretty damned well.
Sure, it's not a maxed out marauder or a blap dread, but it's hardly the cataclysm people claim. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 13:49:39 -
[4428] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:That's 40M as in 40 mil SP, newbs now get 500k I think? I know there is a deep game beyond SP, I have explained that I take part in almost all areas of the game even with my inferior 40mil SP. SP is a central part of the game as stated in the original blog for this forum. By CCP Rise. Go argue the point with him if you disagree (probably chatting to Dave in the coffee area...).
As for you second point when in EvE do any players arrange a fight where everyone is equal? We want to win fights, to do that we apply an overwhelming amount of force in the right place at the right time. As you improve your skills you improve your options on the force that you can apply, if you require other skills you bring a friend that has them. Wow, it's not like rocket science is it?
For a player to feel ownership towards their character the character actually has to be theirs and not some carbon copy clone that just has a different avatar. Without my skillset what sets my character apart from any other in EvE? Absolutely nothing, there is no ownership as there is nothing to own.
By your theory all cars should be made exactly the same (except for the body work) because then we'd all have so much more fun driving them. All sports people should have exactly the same level of physical capability because then we can all have more fun supporting them. Every player is individual, their character should represent this (before someone yells character bazzaar I entirely disagree with this too other than it being a necessary evil to stop RMT). Rise + Pirate Unicorns are welcome in this discussion.
Are you really appealing to absurdity again? How is capital vs cruiser SP equal opportunity?
afkalt wrote:Dror wrote:Quote:"Research on loyalty has found that increasing customer retention by as little as 5 percent can increase profits by 25 to 95 percent." Subs can come and go, but if they have a great reason to stay and refer others, that's well above a 5 percent increase. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121116160946.htm "To build a player's feeling of ownership towards its character, game makers should provide equal opportunities for any character to win a battle." Wow, it's like science. You keep posting this in support of a development which we all know is liable to drive newbros into a retention toxic environment. Yes, it is like science, but your book appears to be upside down and missing several pages. Ed: And the kestrel videos I linked can be done in under 2 months. Which is far from shabby in a game with so much to learn. Probably much less now with the new skills. At least they would enjoy the depth of the game. If you would have read anything about motivation, you would probably realize that the whole autonomy idea -- freedom to make decisions and affect gameplay -- is actually encouraging. You know, it's also what the CCP videos state about correlations with ships getting blown up and better sustain?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
477
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 13:57:06 -
[4429] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:afkalt wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:You need just under 21mill SP to make over 200mill/h. this can either be obtained through a year's worth of skill training or you can drop a couple plexes. If you can't afford the whole 21mill you can get away with around half it and probably put out around 100mill. Thinking about releasing a guide soon with everything needed. Wonder what that kind of influx of isk and LP will do to the game's market combined with easy access to instant skillpoints. Instant HS alts for everyone? Fun times ahead That's weird because I trained up two alts which can handle C3 WHs together in approx 2 months and 2 days. They could scale up too, if other people had some. Spider domis, T2 sentries, sub 5m skill points. 21m is well over the top. Yes, but that's WH space. You dont have any isk till it makes it out of the WH and into a HS trade hub/npc buyer. WHs also aren't exactly the most new player friendly space. A lot of mechanics that you'd need to learn compared to the themerk content in HS. HS is relatively 'safe' compared to WH space. No local, bubbles, cloaky ships, ships invisible on d-scan... all kinds of things can go wrong. And lets face it, not a lot of new players are going to hop into WH space and be able to do anything other than explode. Some might and that's good, but not most. I miss wh space Well keep in mind if I can do WH, it can roflstomp level 4s too. My point is, for less than 5m SP you can have a pilot trained up to do something really pretty damned well. Sure, it's not a maxed out marauder or a blap dread, but it's hardly the cataclysm people claim. The 21mill sp is for all lv4s (aka burners, where the real money is) |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
89
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 14:09:58 -
[4430] - Quote
Dror wrote:I started playing where PLEX was 500-600M. I found some Goons training queue and set it. Then, I found out that basically the most money I could make was with FW plexing. I did that, and though I basically got the amount, I just paid the sub because it was way too much investment for almost no entertainment. I eventually quit, because I was that noobie who tried reprocessing to no efficiency, checked out industry to no profit margins, and found nothing (of depth) but the inefficiency of click-approach, etc., with seemingly no alternative. Playing that much, for PLEXing, and just orbiting beacons -- and without any better alternative, apparently! All I was there for was to feel competitive and relevant, but the game set out nothing in the form of diversity, as the stories had come.. nor of the fantasies and expectations of a sandbox game. There was some hub bashing and fleeting, but I quit because of the whole experience. There's a lot keeping fresh characters from interesting corporation experiences, but it's mostly just interest in the game. If they're sustained because of dedication to (quite anonymous) socialization, are they really that well retained? I came back around the faction redesign for "6M free SP". I actually started a bunch of characters; and starter-pack CD keys were on sale. The plan was to make a bunch of BC V characters (with no support skills, obviously), sell them on the market, and get a decent main. Some way through (before unlimited skill queues), I realized that I wasn't even playing the game.. just setting skills, with the idea that the game would be deep with more SP. On my main, I had trained scanning skills, support skills, fitting skills, and tried lots of areas and interests. Nothing could match FW's payout, especially with that level of market experience and SP. There was obviously finding the problem that apparently no character had maxed SP -- it was just a huge carrot -- and I could find no character on the bazaar with the design depth of mine. So, I stopped logging in, fugging up about 80% of the characters. I came back more recently because of finding out about a buddy playing. I joined his corporation, fulfilled the newbie tackle role, and enjoyed it a lot. I ended up top 3 in the corp -- in both position and KBs. Yet, most of the corporation was newbies, because that's apparently what most recruits are -- and training them comes with absolutely no diversity. "Here's an Atron or a Griffin. Enjoy." I'm not training them to 10v1 in a Raven. "How do I make money?" Beacons, innit! The game was still entertaining, though, because we dec'd Brave, located in Catch. Then, they got evicted. In and out of a few alliances, our corp, through low and null -- there was no place for us, and because we couldn't efficiently progress through more powerful fleet comps, there was no potential for.. really even finding a place in just low or null. Every region we tried had that corp in T3s.. gate-camping in Cynabals and Gnosis. That's obviously beyond FW, so making money comes with problems, especially for the newbies incoming, who still require training. At that point, though, the corp had lost most of its interest -- the veterans weren't logging on, and the newbies weren't finding anything to do. Seems like an SP problem. Doesn't it? I eventually, post-corp, found manual piloting; but that required even more (core) skills.. and ISK that I wasn't interested in playing for (especially without a potential fleet). The buddy who originally recruited me quit corp before I did, and he recently mentioned regretting spending so much on the game. There's a very definite juxtaposition that has to be fulfilled, and it doesn't even have to come from combat playstyles. Just logging on to set industry queues could have kept our comms filled.
Dror i came from a background of playing competitive quake/quakeworld - quake3. I got my first toon and someone was spamming join corp, i did and had to work out how to even get there 75 jumps later and about 4 ships i made it only to realise i just joined a pirate corp mainly canadians with a few UK players, i spent my first 3 months very quickly learning pvp but as the time zones were so different if i wanted any sort of fun was still up at stupid oclock, didnt take me long to realise that if i wanted the pvp fun that i would need another to get income with. Number 2 was spawned and sat skilling up for about a month then started running missions with a different outfit, 1 guy had access to lvl4's back then and 3 or 4 of us would join in mainly in turkeys but it was a blast didnt take that long before all were able to do level4's and we were making some good isk whilst missioning.
My pvp side was now failing apart so departed ways and joined another pirate outfit same senario borked timezones but it was fun, the grind of 1 fulfilled the needs of the other. I think here is where our stories differ already because the missioning side now i was taking new players out to start them off, getting rep getting them to understand what to do and if need be helping with kit. after this my characters just exploded with advancements in the game with mining, ship building hauling in some serious crap holes of space but it got me my retriever BPO. Not once in any of that time did skillpoints hold me back but one thing i did have all the way through was the ability to socialize with people. The more friends i made the easier any task became. I still have the same philosophy today and just because im in a decent position i dont take anything for granted, i still help with the training of new people i still drop a serious clang of loosing a pimped out ship once in a while much to the amusement of others, but you cannot blame a game for the person thinking it was going to be a land of milk and honey. Assumption is the mother of all ****ups. |
|
Norian Lonark
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
167
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 14:12:47 -
[4431] - Quote
I am sorry but this quote doesnt fit EVE at all the general line of thought is wrong with regards to SPs affecting the outcome.
If you are looking for 1v1 pvp then the skills gap doesnt really matter that much as its been explained over and over again with specialisation any newbee can be equal to a vet in any given ship very quickly.
But most of EVEs pvp is not 1v1...is not a single player experience. Any player can win a battle in EVE and SPs dont matter, but the strategy and who your flying with matters. I have fleeted with FCs who have much less SP then me but they are much better FCs because of knowledge and experience.
Even if you have all the SPs in eve you are not going to have an equal opportunity to win a battle if you fly solo against people field more ships.. or fly and dont know what your doing against a group of well organised and experienced players.
EVE is situational so no matter what skills you got you will never be at an advantage if you dont pick your fights well.
This goes the same for just about everything in the game not just limited to PVP. If your doing it alone your at a disadvantage and will never have something to win at eve.
Are SPs the barrier to new player experiences and retention... IMO no.
Start wide, expand further, and never look back
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1811
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 14:16:35 -
[4432] - Quote
Dror wrote:... Rise + Pirate Unicorns are welcome in this discussion.
Are you really appealing to absurdity again? How is capital vs cruiser SP equal opportunity?
I didn't appeal to anything, I pointed out that with significantly less SP than you quote I have done most things in the game at some level.
As for capital vs cruiser SP How many cruisers (or sub-caps in general) are in space at any given time on average? And how many capitals? And which set of SP have the most use in game by that measure?
Capitals are not used in the same numbers as sub-caps nor would they be. Capital combat is not that much fun by all accounts, waiting for an FC to tell you when to hit F1 and on who in 10% TiDi really doesn't appeal to me. You think there will be a spate of capital 1 v 1's if new players can instantly fly them? There would be a spate of hilarious km's as small gangs catch such ships and eat them up. That would really be fun for the new players who laid out RL cash for a ship that dies in a ball of pretty flames unless it's used in the right context (which a new player will have no idea about).
Also if the capital pilot is in a cruiser too because that is the appropriate ship for a given task then the cruiser pilot is on an exactly equal footing independent of the total SP of the capital pilot. The cruiser pilot may well prefer smaller faster ships to a whale of a floating coffin. Fun is not defined by what you can do in game but rather by what you actually do in game. Some of the most fun I've had was in dodging gatecamps in losec in a nereus whist fetching PI. I was almost certainly at around 5-10 mil SP at that time. No capital ship required. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2282
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 14:19:06 -
[4433] - Quote
Dror wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:That's 40M as in 40 mil SP, newbs now get 500k I think? I know there is a deep game beyond SP, I have explained that I take part in almost all areas of the game even with my inferior 40mil SP. SP is a central part of the game as stated in the original blog for this forum. By CCP Rise. Go argue the point with him if you disagree (probably chatting to Dave in the coffee area...).
As for you second point when in EvE do any players arrange a fight where everyone is equal? We want to win fights, to do that we apply an overwhelming amount of force in the right place at the right time. As you improve your skills you improve your options on the force that you can apply, if you require other skills you bring a friend that has them. Wow, it's not like rocket science is it?
For a player to feel ownership towards their character the character actually has to be theirs and not some carbon copy clone that just has a different avatar. Without my skillset what sets my character apart from any other in EvE? Absolutely nothing, there is no ownership as there is nothing to own.
By your theory all cars should be made exactly the same (except for the body work) because then we'd all have so much more fun driving them. All sports people should have exactly the same level of physical capability because then we can all have more fun supporting them. Every player is individual, their character should represent this (before someone yells character bazzaar I entirely disagree with this too other than it being a necessary evil to stop RMT). Rise + Pirate Unicorns are welcome in this discussion. Are you really appealing to absurdity again? How is capital vs cruiser SP equal opportunity? afkalt wrote:Dror wrote:Quote:"Research on loyalty has found that increasing customer retention by as little as 5 percent can increase profits by 25 to 95 percent." Subs can come and go, but if they have a great reason to stay and refer others, that's well above a 5 percent increase. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121116160946.htm "To build a player's feeling of ownership towards its character, game makers should provide equal opportunities for any character to win a battle." Wow, it's like science. You keep posting this in support of a development which we all know is liable to drive newbros into a retention toxic environment. Yes, it is like science, but your book appears to be upside down and missing several pages. Ed: And the kestrel videos I linked can be done in under 2 months. Which is far from shabby in a game with so much to learn. Probably much less now with the new skills. At least they would enjoy the depth of the game. If you would have read anything about motivation, you would probably realize that the whole autonomy idea -- freedom to make decisions and affect gameplay -- is actually encouraging. You know, it's also what the CCP videos state about correlations with ships getting blown up and better sustain?
You're looking at the abstract and completely ignoring the specific, stated evidence the pushing people to PvE pushes them to quit.
If you honestly think that a great many people will not fall into this trap, I don't know what to tell you.
I see you've also not addressed the fact your failing about 400m skillpoints is entirely irrelevant either. |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
1051
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 14:42:34 -
[4434] - Quote
For anyone who doesn't know, this is all you need to read to understand the reasons behind idiotic ideas like this:
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf
Not today spaghetti.
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 14:43:08 -
[4435] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror i came from a background of playing competitive quake/quakeworld - quake3. I got my first toon and someone was spamming join corp, i did and had to work out how to even get there 75 jumps later and about 4 ships i made it only to realise i just joined a pirate corp mainly canadians with a few UK players, i spent my first 3 months very quickly learning pvp but as the time zones were so different if i wanted any sort of fun was still up at stupid oclock, didnt take me long to realise that if i wanted the pvp fun that i would need another to get income with. Number 2 was spawned and sat skilling up for about a month then started running missions with a different outfit, 1 guy had access to lvl4's back then and 3 or 4 of us would join in mainly in turkeys but it was a blast didnt take that long before all were able to do level4's and we were making some good isk whilst missioning.
My pvp side was now failing apart so departed ways and joined another pirate outfit same senario borked timezones but it was fun, the grind of 1 fulfilled the needs of the other. I think here is where our stories differ already because the missioning side now i was taking new players out to start them off, getting rep getting them to understand what to do and if need be helping with kit. after this my characters just exploded with advancements in the game with mining, ship building hauling in some serious crap holes of space but it got me my retriever BPO. Not once in any of that time did skillpoints hold me back but one thing i did have all the way through was the ability to socialize with people. The more friends i made the easier any task became. I still have the same philosophy today and just because im in a decent position i dont take anything for granted, i still help with the training of new people i still drop a serious clang of loosing a pimped out ship once in a while much to the amusement of others, but you cannot blame a game for the person thinking it was going to be a land of milk and honey. Assumption is the mother of all ****ups. Yet, retention is still supposedly awful; and missioning is one of the prime interests but also fails to sustain any percentage of players that ends up in an increased PCU.
There's really no suggestion in that post.
Norian Lonark wrote:I am sorry but this quote doesnt fit EVE at all the general line of thought is wrong with regards to SPs affecting the outcome and being an issue. If you are looking for 1v1 pvp then the skills gap doesnt really matter that much as its been explained over and over again with specialisation any newbee can be equal to a vet in any given ship very quickly. But most of EVEs pvp is not 1v1...is not a single player experience. Any player can win a battle in EVE and SPs dont matter, but the strategy and who your flying with matters. I have fleeted with FCs who have much less SP then me but they are much better FCs because of knowledge and experience. Even if you have all the SPs in eve you are not going to have an equal opportunity to win a battle if you fly solo against people field more ships.. or fly and dont know what your doing against a group of well organised and experienced players. EVE is situational so no matter what skills you got you will never be at an advantage if you dont pick your fights well. This goes the same for just about everything in the game not just limited to PVP. If your doing it alone your at a disadvantage and will never have something to win at eve. Are SPs the barrier to new player experiences and retention... IMO no. Do you actually have any evidence? You're trying to refute science with guessing.
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote:... Rise + Pirate Unicorns are welcome in this discussion.
Are you really appealing to absurdity again? How is capital vs cruiser SP equal opportunity?
I didn't appeal to anything, I pointed out that with significantly less SP than you quote I have done most things in the game at some level. As for capital vs cruiser SP How many cruisers (or sub-caps in general) are in space at any given time on average? And how many capitals? And which set of SP have the most use in game by that measure? Capitals are not used in the same numbers as sub-caps nor would they be. Capital combat is not that much fun by all accounts, waiting for an FC to tell you when to hit F1 and on who in 10% TiDi really doesn't appeal to me. You think there will be a spate of capital 1 v 1's if new players can instantly fly them? There would be a spate of hilarious km's as small gangs catch such ships and eat them up. That would really be fun for the new players who laid out RL cash for a ship that dies in a ball of pretty flames unless it's used in the right context (which a new player will have no idea about). Also if the capital pilot is in a cruiser too because that is the appropriate ship for a given task then the cruiser pilot is on an exactly equal footing independent of the total SP of the capital pilot. The cruiser pilot may well prefer smaller faster ships to a whale of a floating coffin. Fun is not defined by what you can do in game but rather by what you actually do in game. Some of the most fun I've had was in dodging gatecamps in losec in a nereus whist fetching PI. I was almost certainly at around 5-10 mil SP at that time. No capital ship required. Actually -- "When in EVE do any players arrange a fight where everyone is equal?" It's completely missing the idea of "equal opportunity".
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Jared Khanar
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 14:45:41 -
[4436] - Quote
a question aside ... are there other aspects in the game in which microtransactions could be integrated in a way everyone is happy with? A way that motivates us to establish additional cash flows to ccp?
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
91
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 14:52:06 -
[4437] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:a question aside ... are there other aspects in the game in which microtransactions could be integrated in a way everyone is happy with? A way that motivates the majority of the playerbase to establish additional cash flows to ccp?
Anything is possible as long as its not made as a tradeable item,Once it enters the public domain its hoarded, price jacked you name it. As long as CCP aims it at an account its outside the realms of it being abused. |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
67
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 15:00:15 -
[4438] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:a question aside ... are there other aspects in the game in which microtransactions could be integrated in a way everyone is happy with? A way that motivates the majority of the playerbase to establish additional cash flows to ccp? Anything is possible as long as its not made as a tradeable item,Once it enters the public domain its hoarded, price jacked you name it. As long as CCP aims it at an account its outside the realms of it being abused.
Then problem with that, is then it becomes the exclusive domain of those with a juicy credit card. At least a traded item is accessible to all which I've always considered to be one of EvE's strong points. |
Jared Khanar
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 15:00:47 -
[4439] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: Anything is possible as long as its not made as a tradeable item,Once it enters the public domain its hoarded, price jacked you name it. As long as CCP aims it at an account its outside the realms of it being abused.
doubt they would have the same effect regarding instant revenue like sp trading. personally for example: skins don-¦t matter. what can provide a comparable effect without damaging (or doing something perceived as damage to) the ingame-experience?
EDIT: with comparable "low" investments necessary to develop and integrate |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 15:05:05 -
[4440] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:a question aside ... are there other aspects in the game in which microtransactions could be integrated in a way everyone is happy with? A way that motivates the majority of the playerbase to establish additional cash flows to ccp? Yes, there are plenty.
Some games disperse their premium currency (PLEX, basically) through allowing consumers to complete whatever the advertisement companies are interested in. That includes providing information and interests, filling out surveys, trying products like Netflix, and even referring for products or such.
Obviously, supporting actual advertisements in the game would probably develop much less of a response than making everything in a subscription game microtransaction based.
There's also just more subs. As stated on these forums, there are some 18M+ fresh internet users every month, and the PC gaming demographic includes some 900M on a report. Even Raptr (a very niche program) lists about 1.5M fresh users per month, which apparently can include 0% from China (seems relevant for our shard).
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1812
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 15:09:36 -
[4441] - Quote
Dror wrote:... Yes, there are plenty.
Some games disperse their premium currency (PLEX, basically) through allowing consumers to complete whatever the advertisement companies are interested in. That includes providing information and interests, filling out surveys, trying products like Netflix, and even referring for products or such.
So you are saying we should be happy for players to be bribed into sharing their details with 3rd parties? Brilliant idea...
Dror wrote:..
There's also just more subs. As stated on these forums, there are some 18M+ fresh internet users every month, and the PC gaming demographic includes some 900M on a report. Even Raptr (a very niche program) lists about 1.5M fresh users per month, which apparently can include 0% from China (seems relevant for our shard).
Those numbers mean nothing as EvE is a niche game in it's appeal (i.e. how many players will accept other players actively setting out to kill them and steal all their stuff?) and setting (spaceship combat and manufacturing). Raptr probably gets those subs from people upgrading Catalyst drivers for the video drivers to a large degree. It came with the last upgrade I tried to apply (which I imediately rolled back :D ) |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
91
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 15:10:10 -
[4442] - Quote
Dror wrote:Yet, retention is still supposedly awful; and missioning is one of the prime interests but also fails to sustain any percentage of players that ends up in an increased PCU.
There's really no suggestion in that post.
Maybe try setting your logic aside, try not using that sort of logical approach when looking for a corp, hell the goons will take anyone try to enjoy the game. Why this worry of isk and its generation you will always be chasing that one. Even NPC corp like SWA have there pvp roam groups now like SWArm who you could hook up with at weekends. Missioning is not a primary, its something used for fair income generation, socializing / helping rookies with rep and gaining rep for other area's of the game. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
264
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 15:11:35 -
[4443] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:a question aside ... are there other aspects in the game in which microtransactions could be integrated in a way everyone is happy with? A way that motivates the majority of the playerbase to establish additional cash flows to ccp?
Things that have no actual ingame impact. Ship skins, showing corp/alliance logo (as an overall toggle, not per ship), race/bloodline resets, tower/outpost/citadel skins, more pod skins, more clothing (proper stuff). Cosmetic stuff, mostly. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
28
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 15:26:46 -
[4444] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:So you are saying we should be happy for players to be bribed into sharing their details with 3rd parties? Brilliant idea... Not sure if being intentionally aloof, or just dull, but it's simple stuff like emails or zip codes.. That's obviously less beneficial to a company than most data, so it ordinarily rewards less.
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote:..
There's also just more subs. As stated on these forums, there are some 18M+ fresh internet users every month, and the PC gaming demographic includes some 900M on a report. Even Raptr (a very niche program) lists about 1.5M fresh users per month, which apparently can include 0% from China (seems relevant for our shard). Those numbers mean nothing as EvE is a niche game in it's appeal (i.e. how many players will accept other players actively setting out to kill them and steal all their stuff?) and setting (spaceship combat and manufacturing). Raptr probably gets those subs from people upgrading Catalyst drivers for the video drivers to a large degree. It came with the last upgrade I tried to apply (which I imediately rolled back :D ) If you'd recall, the game gets a lot of leeway for being an interesting experience, and if it actively devalues its own feature list, how is that helpful? You're reductions are poor and unbased.
Quote:You're making the whole of issues out to be a people problem. Prove it, then. Prove that motivation isn't some inherent process that design has to be submitted to. Prove that undermining player skillfulness is motivating, instead of its alternative of allowing progression and mastery.
Levi Belvar wrote:Maybe try setting your logic aside, try not using that sort of logical approach when looking for a corp, hell the goons will take anyone try to enjoy the game. Why this worry of isk and its generation you will always be chasing that one. Even NPC corp like SWA have there pvp roam groups now like SWArm who you could hook up with at weekends. Missioning is not a primary, its something used for fair income generation, socializing / helping rookies with rep and gaining rep for other area's of the game. You've switched from discussing how the game effects retention to anecdote.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2046
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 15:31:43 -
[4445] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:a question aside ... are there other aspects in the game in which microtransactions could be integrated in a way everyone is happy with? A way that motivates the majority of the playerbase to establish additional cash flows to ccp? Anything is possible as long as its not made as a tradeable item,Once it enters the public domain its hoarded, price jacked you name it. As long as CCP aims it at an account its outside the realms of it being abused. Then problem with that, is then it becomes the exclusive domain of those with a juicy credit card. At least a traded item is accessible to all which I've always considered to be one of EvE's strong points.
My issue is with the ability to convert PLEX to AURUM. I think this option should be removed and you should only be able to buy Aurum directly from CCP.
People with disposable income to spend on virtual items would be free to do so and if they chose, they could sell the NEX items on the market, so that the items were technically available to everyone. You could still provide Aurum items through rare PVE loot drops, if you wanted to give more people access to them.
IMO lower PLEX prices help player retention and increase player logins but CCPs proposals seem to be aimed at doing the opposite for the sake of a fast buck.
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks
|
N00B-SAIB0T
MK Financial
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 15:39:38 -
[4446] - Quote
Maybe what's needed is some sort of compromise:
Be able to extract Skill Points but only allocate them back to the original character from which they were extracted. Additionally, have a steep penalty with SP loss in this process that makes this feature make you think twice.
I have a feeling that CCP is pushing ahead with its original plan but some kind of middle ground should be reached due to the overwhelming negative response to the original idea.
Additionally, CCP mentions something about not being able to change the name of a new character that you've acquired. Is a name change feature also a part of their plans with this?
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1812
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 15:43:31 -
[4447] - Quote
Dror wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:So you are saying we should be happy for players to be bribed into sharing their details with 3rd parties? Brilliant idea... Not sure if being intentionally aloof, or just dull, but it's simple stuff like emails or zip codes.. That's obviously less beneficial to a company than most data, so it ordinarily rewards less.
If such information is of little value thenwhy would they ask for it? Your email is an extremely easy way to bombard you with junk mail. It has great value to marketing companies. You postcode in combination with other details is equally valuable information. Your email is also often your login on many sites so suggesting pepole should get used to giving it out in retunr for some little in game benefit is very poor.
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote:..
There's also just more subs. As stated on these forums, there are some 18M+ fresh internet users every month, and the PC gaming demographic includes some 900M on a report. Even Raptr (a very niche program) lists about 1.5M fresh users per month, which apparently can include 0% from China (seems relevant for our shard). Those numbers mean nothing as EvE is a niche game in it's appeal (i.e. how many players will accept other players actively setting out to kill them and steal all their stuff?) and setting (spaceship combat and manufacturing). Raptr probably gets those subs from people upgrading Catalyst drivers for the video drivers to a large degree. It came with the last upgrade I tried to apply (which I imediately rolled back :D ) If you'd recall, the game gets a lot of leeway for being an interesting experience, and if it actively devalues its own feature list, how is that helpful? You're reductions are poor and unbased. ...[/quote] The game is an interesting experience but only to those willing to participate. By dumbing down/removing areas of the game the interest level diminishes. If you change too much too quickly you alienate those who re active current customers, if they get too annoyed you have to back down embarrassingly or lose a lot of business.
The point I make is that SP is in no way a barrier to any area of EvE *if* you just get out and play the game. Stop worrying about isk, sp accrual, what you own etc etc and just play. Key to that is not the amount of SP but rather the NPE. This absolutely needs to introduce new players to the player corps around that will take new players and help them find their way. All the SP in the game will not help the NPE if the new players are not guided.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
91
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 15:46:52 -
[4448] - Quote
Dror wrote:You've switched from discussing how the game effects retention to anecdote.
No i asked your view on the game and i was continuing that, in all fairness the only thing you state that is actual fact is that EvE does not live up to your expectations. Your floundering of research, statistics demographics mean nothing without individualised case studies of a niche market product. What is fact is you can't fly a titan, you dont agree with skillpoints so something is wrong, you watched some video's and expected to do what you saw on joining, Your ability to infer we have to prove why you think something is wrong. - as stated before proof gaming.
If you put as much effort into the game as you do of whining it might open your eyes.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1812
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 15:47:57 -
[4449] - Quote
N00B-SAIB0T wrote:Maybe what's needed is some sort of compromise:
Be able to extract Skill Points but only allocate them back to the original character from which they were extracted. Additionally, have a steep penalty with SP loss in this process that makes this feature make you think twice.
I have a feeling that CCP is pushing ahead with its original plan but some kind of middle ground should be reached due to the overwhelming negative response to the original idea.
Additionally, CCP mentions something about not being able to change the name of a new character that you've acquired. Is a name change feature also a part of their plans with this?
Not sure how much the name would matter now as any character on the bazaar simply becomes and SP pool to carve up and sell. Rich players can just carve them up into a group of perfect focused 50 mil alts for every occasion too.
Nothing I have seen so far in all of this discussion changes my view that this will only benefit older players/large groups. New players will simply not have the isk/cash/knowledge to make use of this. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
28
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 15:59:49 -
[4450] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:The game is an interesting experience but only to those willing to participate. By dumbing down/removing areas of the game the interest level diminishes. If you change too much too quickly you alienate those who re active current customers, if they get too annoyed you have to back down embarrassingly or lose a lot of business.
The point I make is that SP is in no way a barrier to any area of EvE *if* you just get out and play the game. Stop worrying about isk, sp accrual, what you own etc etc and just play. Key to that is not the amount of SP but rather the NPE. This absolutely needs to introduce new players to the player corps around that will take new players and help them find their way. All the SP in the game will not help the NPE if the new players are not guided. How odd it is supposing that SP supplies depth and "areas of the game" while also removing those.
Again, you're assuming that limiting progression and depth and variety and competitiveness allows sub interest and their referrals. If it really only takes 5% increased retention to increase profits by 25-95%, some unsubbing (after it's announced for feedback that this seems like the best option) over something that absolutely makes the game shallow is fine, replaced with those interested in playing the game.
You obviously can't refute the relevance of motivation science, and it's less than obvious why you try with more anecdotal arguments? It's just bias.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 16:17:38 -
[4451] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:General Lootit wrote:Thanks all for having discussion(Yes Levi it's happaning). It was fun even more funny than chating in-game. I'm going to Dave from Marketing department to drink couple of coffee Good luck everyone! Bring sugar. We've run out up here. Sorry Dave but we have bittervets only |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1815
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 16:18:50 -
[4452] - Quote
Dror wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:The game is an interesting experience but only to those willing to participate. By dumbing down/removing areas of the game the interest level diminishes. If you change too much too quickly you alienate those who re active current customers, if they get too annoyed you have to back down embarrassingly or lose a lot of business.
The point I make is that SP is in no way a barrier to any area of EvE *if* you just get out and play the game. Stop worrying about isk, sp accrual, what you own etc etc and just play. Key to that is not the amount of SP but rather the NPE. This absolutely needs to introduce new players to the player corps around that will take new players and help them find their way. All the SP in the game will not help the NPE if the new players are not guided. How odd it is supposing that SP supplies depth and "areas of the game" while also removing those. Again, you're assuming that limiting progression and depth and variety and competitiveness allows sub interest and their referrals. If it really only takes 5% increased retention to increase profits by 25-95%, some unsubbing (after it's announced for feedback that this seems like the best option) over something that absolutely makes the game shallow is fine, replaced with those interested in playing the game. You obviously can't refute the relevance of motivation science, and it's less than obvious why you try with more anecdotal arguments? It's just bias.
Game experience is not bias, it is opinion formed from actual play of the game we are discussing, not some findings from a study which I have no doubt will be contradicted by another study somewhere else and is also very generalized (one size absolutely does not fit all in psychology/motivation etc).
Again I'm not assuming anything, I'm relating my experience in various games where progression is a key component of the experience. Many other people here have agreed with this. You on the other hand are assuming that the removal of a core component of a game will instantly make it more fun, increase subs, improve retention, improve NPE, have people forking out tons of cash to fly ship x, y, or z etc etc etc.
If it takes a 5% increase in retention to increase profits by 25-95% (again I bet there's studies that refute this) then what would happen to profits if 25% of the long term players unsub due to their game being gutted? How long do you think CCP could sustain the loss in profits whilst waiting for new player retention to ramp up (assuming it did)?
The SP mechanism works well, it has players thinking about what they want to do in game, guides them in a direction to follow, rewards subs without grinding. It does not stop players from doing what they want, they just have to work towards it through other areas of the game. Would HALO be as much fun if you could just start at the end level with the biggest guns on your back? Would super mario have been fun if you could just drop in the boss level at the end with whatever power ups you could have?
This is simplifying things down but the point is the same. How much fun is there in being handed everything on a plate? Much of the attraction of Eve comes from having to earn things if you want them. That comes from planning, good choices, gameplay and luck. You are proposing the removal of the first two to a large degree. You are also overestimating how much extra fun people will have by being able to simply do anything in game (along with the impact that will have on others who *have* invested a lot of time and effort in getting to that point).
You are also still seemingly ignoring the fact that CCP have outright stated the importance of SP as a core part of the game. This in itself ends any discussion of SP removal which isn't what this thread was t discuss in the first place. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
91
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 16:21:26 -
[4453] - Quote
Dror wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:The game is an interesting experience but only to those willing to participate. By dumbing down/removing areas of the game the interest level diminishes. If you change too much too quickly you alienate those who re active current customers, if they get too annoyed you have to back down embarrassingly or lose a lot of business.
The point I make is that SP is in no way a barrier to any area of EvE *if* you just get out and play the game. Stop worrying about isk, sp accrual, what you own etc etc and just play. Key to that is not the amount of SP but rather the NPE. This absolutely needs to introduce new players to the player corps around that will take new players and help them find their way. All the SP in the game will not help the NPE if the new players are not guided. How odd it is supposing that SP supplies depth and "areas of the game" while also removing those. Again, you're assuming that limiting progression and depth and variety and competitiveness allows sub interest and their referrals. If it really only takes 5% increased retention to increase profits by 25-95%, some unsubbing (after it's announced for feedback that this seems like the best option) over something that absolutely makes the game shallow is fine, replaced with those interested in playing the game. You obviously can't refute the relevance of motivation science, and it's less than obvious why you try with more anecdotal arguments? It's just bias.
"Motivation" comes from vision, goal setting, and celebrating small successes .
Resistance / Do i have to Answer / i Choose too.
Resistance / I dont want to do this Answer / Realign your tasks
Resistance / I can't do this Answer / Realise that effort creates your rewards.
Am i missing anything here. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 16:59:44 -
[4454] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Game experience is not bias, it is opinion formed from actual play of the game we are discussing, not some findings from a study which I have no doubt will be contradicted by another study somewhere else and is also very generalized (one size absolutely does not fit all in psychology/motivation etc).
Again I'm not assuming anything, I'm relating my experience in various games where progression is a key component of the experience. Many other people here have agreed with this. You on the other hand are assuming that the removal of a core component of a game will instantly make it more fun, increase subs, improve retention, improve NPE, have people forking out tons of cash to fly ship x, y, or z etc etc etc.
If it takes a 5% increase in retention to increase profits by 25-95% (again I bet there's studies that refute this) then what would happen to profits if 25% of the long term players unsub due to their game being gutted? How long do you think CCP could sustain the loss in profits whilst waiting for new player retention to ramp up (assuming it did)?
The SP mechanism works well, it has players thinking about what they want to do in game, guides them in a direction to follow, rewards subs without grinding. It does not stop players from doing what they want, they just have to work towards it through other areas of the game. Would HALO be as much fun if you could just start at the end level with the biggest guns on your back? Would super mario have been fun if you could just drop in the boss level at the end with whatever power ups you could have?
This is simplifying things down but the point is the same. How much fun is there in being handed everything on a plate? Much of the attraction of Eve comes from having to earn things if you want them. That comes from planning, good choices, gameplay and luck. You are proposing the removal of the first two to a large degree. You are also overestimating how much extra fun people will have by being able to simply do anything in game (along with the impact that will have on others who *have* invested a lot of time and effort in getting to that point).
You are also still seemingly ignoring the fact that CCP have outright stated the importance of SP as a core part of the game. This in itself ends any discussion of SP removal which isn't what this thread was t discuss in the first place. Ah, there it is. This underlined claim has no precedent, especially in this conversation. The whole point of established motivation theories is commonality.
25% unsubs of some hundreds of thousands? In all respect, that's a tiny amount. WoW lost 50%, but the trend is a "lack of content". Oh, sweet -- a sandbox game can have unlimited content without restrictions undermining fresh subs and interest.
The implication is still, apparently, that SP doesn't come upon the same reward problems as other extrinsic motivations, which are actually reported as reduced direction and creativity. As with the NPE videos, it's following that Achievements line and having no clue how you got there or no clue what to do next. Maslow's hierarchy would state that the most motivating thing is self-actualization. Yet, how can interested subs show how to be great if both of their skills disallow that?
Halo is the example? Its multiplayer experience sets the experience on a tuned playing field -- same stats, etc. Mario? False equivalence. These aren't sandbox games, nor are they multiplayer. Earning and progression? How is it progression being limited to a tiny window of diversity and unsubbing?
The fun comes from being competitive at everything.. (of interest). If a sub gets a character with 35M SP, what if he'd like to recruit his crew? This very idea should explain exactly how essential freedom is.
Levi Belvar wrote:"Motivation" comes from vision, goal setting, and celebrating small successes .
Resistance / Do i have to Answer / i Choose too.
Resistance / I dont want to do this Answer / Realign your tasks
Resistance / I can't do this Answer / Realise that effort creates your rewards.
Am i missing anything here. Vision and imagination? The skill queue is no inspiration for fantasy. Goal setting? Can't do much more than SP allows.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Yasuo Aldent
Hammer of Hephaestus Reign of Olympus
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 17:05:37 -
[4455] - Quote
Alright, this is just dumb. Skill points for money? I don't think so.
This is pretty much just saying "Hey new players! You don't have to wait to fly any ship they want. What about the nostalgia of all that training time to T2 fit a HAC, etc. Flying the ships no longer becomes gratifying. Also, you are giving a 5 day old character the ability to fly ships that your average year old character can fly, but do they know how to fly it? Fit it? Not at all!
A better alternative to this would be an item that lets you change the appearance of the characters bought on the market. Maybe for like a PLEX or something. And then add in getting small amounts of unallocated skill points for completing the into career missions for the first time. Like half a mil if you complete all 10 of one line. This would allow new players to not have to wait a few weeks before they can do anything else but mine, and it does not break the game by players being able to infinitely generate skill points. So newbies can get that 2.5 mil boost of SP so they arn't bored out of their minds the first month of play, and being a year old is still better than being a newbie. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
91
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 17:11:37 -
[4456] - Quote
Dror wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Game experience is not bias, it is opinion formed from actual play of the game we are discussing, not some findings from a study which I have no doubt will be contradicted by another study somewhere else and is also very generalized (one size absolutely does not fit all in psychology/motivation etc).
Again I'm not assuming anything, I'm relating my experience in various games where progression is a key component of the experience. Many other people here have agreed with this. You on the other hand are assuming that the removal of a core component of a game will instantly make it more fun, increase subs, improve retention, improve NPE, have people forking out tons of cash to fly ship x, y, or z etc etc etc.
If it takes a 5% increase in retention to increase profits by 25-95% (again I bet there's studies that refute this) then what would happen to profits if 25% of the long term players unsub due to their game being gutted? How long do you think CCP could sustain the loss in profits whilst waiting for new player retention to ramp up (assuming it did)?
The SP mechanism works well, it has players thinking about what they want to do in game, guides them in a direction to follow, rewards subs without grinding. It does not stop players from doing what they want, they just have to work towards it through other areas of the game. Would HALO be as much fun if you could just start at the end level with the biggest guns on your back? Would super mario have been fun if you could just drop in the boss level at the end with whatever power ups you could have?
This is simplifying things down but the point is the same. How much fun is there in being handed everything on a plate? Much of the attraction of Eve comes from having to earn things if you want them. That comes from planning, good choices, gameplay and luck. You are proposing the removal of the first two to a large degree. You are also overestimating how much extra fun people will have by being able to simply do anything in game (along with the impact that will have on others who *have* invested a lot of time and effort in getting to that point).
You are also still seemingly ignoring the fact that CCP have outright stated the importance of SP as a core part of the game. This in itself ends any discussion of SP removal which isn't what this thread was t discuss in the first place. Ah, there it is. This underlined claim has no precedent, especially in this conversation. The whole point of established motivation theories is commonality. 25% unsubs of some hundreds of thousands? In all respect, that's a tiny amount. WoW lost 50%, but the trend is a "lack of content". Oh, sweet -- a sandbox game can have unlimited content without restrictions undermining fresh subs and interest. The implication is still, apparently, that SP doesn't come upon the same reward problems as other extrinsic motivations, which are actually reported as reduced direction and creativity. As with the NPE videos, it's following that Achievements line and having no clue how you got there or no clue what to do next. Maslow's hierarchy would state that the most motivating thing is self-actualization. Yet, how can interested subs show how to be great if both of their skills disallow that? Halo is the example? Its multiplayer experience sets the experience on a tuned playing field -- same stats, etc. Mario? False equivalence. These aren't sandbox games, nor are they multiplayer. Earning and progression? How is it progression being limited to a tiny window of diversity and unsubbing? The fun comes from being competitive at everything.. (of interest). If a sub gets a character with 35M SP, what if he'd like to recruit his crew? This very idea should explain exactly how essential freedom is. Levi Belvar wrote:"Motivation" comes from vision, goal setting, and celebrating small successes .
Resistance / Do i have to Answer / i Choose too.
Resistance / I dont want to do this Answer / Realign your tasks
Resistance / I can't do this Answer / Realise that effort creates your rewards.
Am i missing anything here. Vision and imagination? The skill queue is no inspiration for fantasy. Goal setting? Can't do much more than SP allows. First of all Imagination isnt even in that statement, But the main one which you seem to gloss over with you making such an issue with motivation = Realise that effort creates your rewards. Your all about wanting a level playing field where is your effort. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 17:15:16 -
[4457] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:"Motivation" comes from vision, goal setting, and celebrating small successes .
Resistance / Do i have to Answer / i Choose too.
Resistance / I dont want to do this Answer / Realign your tasks
Resistance / I can't do this Answer / Realise that effort creates your rewards.
Am i missing anything here. Vision and imagination? The skill queue is no inspiration for fantasy. Goal setting? Can't do much more than SP allows. First of all Imagination isnt even in that statement, But the main one which you seem to gloss over with you making such an issue with motivation = Realise that effort creates your rewards. Your all about wanting a level playing field where is your effort. Maybe the same place where all of the ores and markets come?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
463
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 17:17:01 -
[4458] - Quote
Just listened to Jeff Raiders latest podcast and Gorski Car was there taking about sp proposal. It gave me a slightly better understanding where he's coming from. He's thinking that overcoming some initial training barriers will allow newcomers to get involved with the 'cool' stuff in eve.
I would like to respectfully disagree. I have interacted with new players ALOT. At the risk of sounding arrogant I'm going to say that I have helped to get dozens if not hundreds of new players realize the beauty of eve and get hooked. Sometimes they were as young as few of days old. Big nullsec alliances want people in specific doctrines because they can't overcome their static bureaucratic nature. This is a problem that needs to be worked out internally by players instead of with a change that is forced on the entirety of eve
I and I'm sure most of the people opposed to this proposal want to help new players. We just don't think pressuring those players into paying money for skills is going to help that and it sends the wrong message. I keep hearing people say what are you worried about, sp doesn't mean **** in eve, its about skillz. Then why are we reinforcing this false belief by giving them an option to buy sp? Personally I don't give a damn if we give new players a bunch of unallocated sp. Do it through non tradable means as a reward for completing certain story arcs. Make it once per account and they should take a certain amount of time to complete to limit its abuse with alts.
This community has many intelligent, creative players and devs. If team size matters gives a good and clear idea of goals they want to achieve we can come up with solutions that everyone can be happy with. The dev blog seems a bit disingenuous and needs clarification for the reason behind this proposal. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
93
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 17:18:08 -
[4459] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:"Motivation" comes from vision, goal setting, and celebrating small successes .
Resistance / Do i have to Answer / i Choose too.
Resistance / I dont want to do this Answer / Realign your tasks
Resistance / I can't do this Answer / Realise that effort creates your rewards.
Am i missing anything here. Vision and imagination? The skill queue is no inspiration for fantasy. Goal setting? Can't do much more than SP allows. First of all Imagination isnt even in that statement, But the main one which you seem to gloss over with you making such an issue with motivation = Realise that effort creates your rewards. Your all about wanting a level playing field where is your effort. Maybe the same place where all of the ores and markets come?
So after all your baffling with bullshit and blinding with science, it boils down to you want to do everything in game with no input what so ever. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 17:22:13 -
[4460] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:"Motivation" comes from vision, goal setting, and celebrating small successes .
Resistance / Do i have to Answer / i Choose too.
Resistance / I dont want to do this Answer / Realign your tasks
Resistance / I can't do this Answer / Realise that effort creates your rewards.
Am i missing anything here. Vision and imagination? The skill queue is no inspiration for fantasy. Goal setting? Can't do much more than SP allows. First of all Imagination isnt even in that statement, But the main one which you seem to gloss over with you making such an issue with motivation = Realise that effort creates your rewards. Your all about wanting a level playing field where is your effort. Maybe the same place where all of the ores and markets come? So after all your baffling with bullshit and blinding with science, it boils down to you want to do everything in game with no input what so ever. Ohhh how cute. Who now ran out of arguments? |
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
93
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 17:26:18 -
[4461] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Ohhh how cute. Who now ran out of arguments?
Lol not me bud, now you go crawl back in that corner |
Dave Stark
7642
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 17:30:28 -
[4462] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Ohhh how cute. Who now ran out of arguments? Lol not me bud, now you go crawl back in that corner
you all ran out of arguments about 2 days ago.
the only person that has put a shred of thought in to his arguments has been afkalt |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
32
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 17:33:01 -
[4463] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Ohhh how cute. Who now ran out of arguments? Lol not me bud, now you go crawl back in that corner Misrepresenting an argument to make it easier to counter is a strawman. You're not arguing about commonality nor psychology.
Quote:To build a player's feeling of ownership towards its character, game makers should provide equal opportunities for any character to win a battle. It -- even being found after this whole discussion about the keys of motivation -- lines up perfectly.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 17:33:49 -
[4464] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Ohhh how cute. Who now ran out of arguments? Lol not me bud, now you go crawl back in that corner Please mercy! You are most bitter vet I ever see. Maybe you need go back to quake3. It will never ever change... I promise you. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
93
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 17:53:24 -
[4465] - Quote
Dror wrote:To build a player's feeling of ownership towards its character, game makers should provide equal opportunities for any character to win a battle..
They have, you put in the effort and you will be rewarded with the character you have spent time building. The 12 year old character didnt start off with 250m skillpoints the same as you saying you couldnt get anywhere because all the area's you went to required t3 doctrine. Just because you cannot have it there and then means its wrong ?? |
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 18:00:46 -
[4466] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:Just listened to Jeff Raiders latest podcast and Gorski Car was there taking about sp proposal. It gave me a slightly better understanding where he's coming from. He's thinking that overcoming some initial training barriers will allow newcomers to get involved with the 'cool' stuff in eve.
I would like to respectfully disagree. I have interacted with new players ALOT. At the risk of sounding arrogant I'm going to say that I have helped to get dozens if not hundreds of new players realize the beauty of eve and get hooked. Sometimes they were as young as few of days old. Big nullsec alliances want people in specific doctrines because they can't overcome their static bureaucratic nature. This is a problem that needs to be worked out internally by players instead of with a change that is forced on the entirety of eve
I and I'm sure most of the people opposed to this proposal want to help new players. We just don't think pressuring those players into paying money for skills is going to help that and it sends the wrong message. I keep hearing people say what are you worried about, sp doesn't mean **** in eve, its about skillz. Then why are we reinforcing this false belief by giving them an option to buy sp? Personally I don't give a damn if we give new players a bunch of unallocated sp. Do it through non tradable means as a reward for completing certain story arcs. Make it once per account and they should take a certain amount of time to complete to limit its abuse with alts.
This community has many intelligent, creative players and devs. If team size matters gives a good and clear idea of goals they want to achieve we can come up with solutions that everyone can be happy with. The dev blog seems a bit disingenuous and needs clarification for the reason behind this proposal.
The more I look at it the more I think this is a "bowing to nullsec blobs" move combined with a cash grab that will be foisted on the rest of us under the guise of helping new bros. Helping relieve them of their money basically.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 18:11:35 -
[4467] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:To build a player's feeling of ownership towards its character, game makers should provide equal opportunities for any character to win a battle.. They have, you put in the effort and you will be rewarded with the character you have spent time building. The 12 year old character didnt start off with 250m skillpoints the same as you saying you couldnt get anywhere because all the area's you went to required t3 doctrine. Just because you cannot have it there and then means its wrong ??
Levi Belvar wrote: You keep saying that but as we are now you can't, that concept doesnt exist .
Always funny to watch how person punching himself. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
95
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 18:15:43 -
[4468] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:To build a player's feeling of ownership towards its character, game makers should provide equal opportunities for any character to win a battle.. They have, you put in the effort and you will be rewarded with the character you have spent time building. The 12 year old character didnt start off with 250m skillpoints the same as you saying you couldnt get anywhere because all the area's you went to required t3 doctrine. Just because you cannot have it there and then means its wrong ?? Levi Belvar wrote: You keep saying that but as we are now you can't, that concept doesnt exist .
Always funny to watch how person punching himself.
I would change your translator Lootit, Your counters are making you look like a bellend. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 18:23:42 -
[4469] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:To build a player's feeling of ownership towards its character, game makers should provide equal opportunities for any character to win a battle.. They have, you put in the effort and you will be rewarded with the character you have spent time building. The 12 year old character didnt start off with 250m skillpoints the same as you saying you couldnt get anywhere because all the area's you went to required t3 doctrine. Just because you cannot have it there and then means its wrong ?? You're fabricating again. You shouldn't try to force every lock and key.
It's already established that what's really motivating is freedom and the idea of mastery and, say, the depth of inter-relatedness. Undermining that, thus, is negative? How can you say that limitations on creativity (e.g. from fitting skills or ship unlocks or DPS) make subs come play? In fact, there's no reason for such a claim.. Then, what's the draw? Of course, SP is unhelpful for that experience for which subs would ask and for which they would refer and for which they would log on.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 18:25:35 -
[4470] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:To build a player's feeling of ownership towards its character, game makers should provide equal opportunities for any character to win a battle.. They have, you put in the effort and you will be rewarded with the character you have spent time building. The 12 year old character didnt start off with 250m skillpoints the same as you saying you couldnt get anywhere because all the area's you went to required t3 doctrine. Just because you cannot have it there and then means its wrong ?? Levi Belvar wrote: You keep saying that but as we are now you can't, that concept doesnt exist .
Always funny to watch how person punching himself. I would change your translator Lootit, Your counters are making you look like a bellend. Sorry but I can't understand -+-¦-é-â-ê-+-+-ï-¦. |
|
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2048
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 20:37:35 -
[4471] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:Just listened to Jeff Raiders latest podcast and Gorski Car was there taking about sp proposal. It gave me a slightly better understanding where he's coming from. He's thinking that overcoming some initial training barriers will allow newcomers to get involved with the 'cool' stuff in eve.
I would like to respectfully disagree. I have interacted with new players ALOT. At the risk of sounding arrogant I'm going to say that I have helped to get dozens if not hundreds of new players realize the beauty of eve and get hooked. Sometimes they were as young as few of days old. Big nullsec alliances want people in specific doctrines because they can't overcome their static bureaucratic nature. This is a problem that needs to be worked out internally by players instead of with a change that is forced on the entirety of eve
I and I'm sure most of the people opposed to this proposal want to help new players. We just don't think pressuring those players into paying money for skills is going to help that and it sends the wrong message. I keep hearing people say what are you worried about, sp doesn't mean **** in eve, its about skillz. Then why are we reinforcing this false belief by giving them an option to buy sp? Personally I don't give a damn if we give new players a bunch of unallocated sp. Do it through non tradable means as a reward for completing certain story arcs. Make it once per account and they should take a certain amount of time to complete to limit its abuse with alts.
This community has many intelligent, creative players and devs. If team size matters gives a good and clear idea of goals they want to achieve we can come up with solutions that everyone can be happy with. The dev blog seems a bit disingenuous and needs clarification for the reason behind this proposal.
There is a conspiracy going on because this website won't let me like your post... So I'll just say "QFT" :)
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks
|
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2048
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 20:59:43 -
[4472] - Quote
Dror wrote: You're fabricating again. You shouldn't try to force every lock and key.
It's already established that what's really motivating is freedom and the idea of mastery and, say, the depth of inter-relatedness. Undermining that, thus, is negative? How can you say that limitations on creativity (e.g. from fitting skills or ship unlocks or DPS) make subs come play? In fact, there's no reason for such a claim.. Then, what's the draw? Of course, SP is unhelpful for that experience for which subs would ask and for which they would refer and for which they would log on.
You have quit a confusing and antiquated way of writing... No offence intened
Are you trying to say that there is no value to be gain in complexity within gameplay and the felling of accomplishment when one is able to plan better than the next guy?
When I look back on my time in EVE, I can see that skill training was very important to me in the beginning. Out of game i spent hours plaining my training and what i should remap for to achieve my goal, and in game i would talk to people to ask "what should i be training for". This got me invested in the game and mad me realise that to get to the top in EVE would take time but with the right planning, i could get there faster than than a lazier guy.
The funny thing is, when CCP changed the training queue so that i could fit in hundreds of days worth of training instead of hours, I stopped logging in every day and i quit playing for 6 months soon after... Now I'm not saying i only play to train, but training is an important part of eve because it invests the player in their character/game.
This change does very little for the new player and in fact, it could have a detrimental effect on them. Like others have said, if CCP wanted to improve everyone experience, they would allow players to respec via Aurum and they would give new players free sp upon achieving goals in the game but they are not doing that. All they are doing is coming up with another way to squeeze money out of people.
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks
|
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
145
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 21:26:17 -
[4473] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:a question aside ... are there other aspects in the game in which microtransactions could be integrated in a way everyone is happy with? A way that motivates the majority of the playerbase to establish additional cash flows to ccp?
If revenue is the issue, then there are less disruptive solutions. Lets imagine, for example, that you need to buy books with AUR. That is far less ripe for abuse than SP market. It's not a system you can farm for power leveling. It's not a system you can farm for instant alts. It doesn't devalue effort and patience that players put into their characters. It's not an easy passive income. It doesn't decouple in-game choices from consequences. If you were to remove basic books from the system (say core skills and some t1 ships & modules) you could shield (to some extent) new players from such microtransactions. It's not something I would be happy to see implemented. But it is a system I possibly could live with, unlike the all-out proposal from the blog. |
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
458
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 21:40:50 -
[4474] - Quote
One thing I'm curious about, that I haven't yet seen a reply on, is how this will work with things like pre-req skills.
If, for instance, a person decides that they're done with mining entirely, and they'd like to get rid of all mining-related skills. This would include both Exhumers and Mining Barges.
Will the Exhumers skill, once its last SP has been removed, be able to be removed from our heads so we can begin to pull off Mining Barges, or will we only be able to pull off the "top-most" skill that we have, and it will forever remain in our heads at zero SP?
Planning a trip to Thera? Check out http://eve-scout.com/ for a list of the current connections.
Once you've made your choice, join the EvE-Scout channel and request a scout to make sure your connection is clear!
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 21:43:59 -
[4475] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Dror wrote: You're fabricating again. You shouldn't try to force every lock and key.
It's already established that what's really motivating is freedom and the idea of mastery and, say, the depth of inter-relatedness. Undermining that, thus, is negative? How can you say that limitations on creativity (e.g. from fitting skills or ship unlocks or DPS) make subs come play? In fact, there's no reason for such a claim.. Then, what's the draw? Of course, SP is unhelpful for that experience for which subs would ask and for which they would refer and for which they would log on.
You have quit a confusing and antiquated way of writing... No offence intened Are you trying to say that there is no value to be gain in complexity within gameplay and the felling of accomplishment when one is able to plan better than the next guy? When I look back on my time in EVE, I can see that skill training was very important to me in the beginning. Out of game i spent hours plaining my training and what i should remap for to achieve my goal, and in game i would talk to people to ask "what should i be training for". This got me invested in the game and mad me realise that to get to the top in EVE would take time but with the right planning, i could get there faster than than a lazier guy. The funny thing is, when CCP changed the training queue so that i could fit in hundreds of days worth of training instead of hours, I stopped logging in every day and i quit playing for 6 months soon after... Now I'm not saying i only play to train, but training is an important part of eve because it invests the player in their character/game. This change does very little for the new player and in fact, it could have a detrimental effect on them. Like others have said, if CCP wanted to improve everyone experience, they would allow players to respec via Aurum and they would give new players free sp upon achieving goals in the game but they are not doing that. All they are doing is coming up with another way to squeeze money out of people. Planning better than the next can come from the immense depth of the game. It should come from gameplay, because limiting newbies from learning (through locked ships and playstyles) completely incapacitates the whole beginner demographic. That, unfortunately, includes starter corps, includes referral problems because of limited effectiveness, and just the whole of being a T1 in a T3 meta. They didn't necessarily "plan" anything. They just subbed more.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
467
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 21:44:40 -
[4476] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:a question aside ... are there other aspects in the game in which microtransactions could be integrated in a way everyone is happy with? A way that motivates the majority of the playerbase to establish additional cash flows to ccp? If revenue is the issue, then there are less disruptive solutions. Lets imagine, for example, that you need to buy books with AUR. That is far less ripe for abuse than SP market. It's not a system you can farm for power leveling. It's not a system you can farm for instant alts. It doesn't devalue effort and patience that players put into their characters. It's not an easy passive income. It doesn't decouple in-game choices from consequences. If you were to remove basic books from the system (say core skills and some t1 ships & modules) you could shield (to some extent) new players from such microtransactions. It's not something I would be happy to see implemented. But it is a system I possibly could live with, unlike the all-out proposal from the blog.
They can already sort of do that with plex though. They just buy plex and use ISK for books or w.e.
Personally I may be crazy and talking from personal anecdotal evidence but if they lowered the ******* cut throat prices on NEX store items I think that would help. My girlfriend and I haven't bought any skins yet because we think they're too expensive. Lowering the price might encourage more people to buy them so the total revenue would be increased.
Again I'm clueless when it comes to marketing, and there may be technical costs associated with having the ability to switch skins so maybe they are trying to offset that. If that's the case IMO they should have communicated that. As it stands it doesn't look like they learned any lessons from incarna. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
145
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 21:50:39 -
[4477] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:Delegate wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:a question aside ... are there other aspects in the game in which microtransactions could be integrated in a way everyone is happy with? A way that motivates the majority of the playerbase to establish additional cash flows to ccp? If revenue is the issue, then there are less disruptive solutions. Lets imagine, for example, that you need to buy books with AUR. That is far less ripe for abuse than SP market. It's not a system you can farm for power leveling. It's not a system you can farm for instant alts. It doesn't devalue effort and patience that players put into their characters. It's not an easy passive income. It doesn't decouple in-game choices from consequences. If you were to remove basic books from the system (say core skills and some t1 ships & modules) you could shield (to some extent) new players from such microtransactions. It's not something I would be happy to see implemented. But it is a system I possibly could live with, unlike the all-out proposal from the blog. They can already sort of do that with plex though. They just buy plex and use ISK for books or w.e.
You can also grind ISK. If you tie books to AUR then every book is a revenue. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 21:52:19 -
[4478] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:Delegate wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:a question aside ... are there other aspects in the game in which microtransactions could be integrated in a way everyone is happy with? A way that motivates the majority of the playerbase to establish additional cash flows to ccp? If revenue is the issue, then there are less disruptive solutions. Lets imagine, for example, that you need to buy books with AUR. That is far less ripe for abuse than SP market. It's not a system you can farm for power leveling. It's not a system you can farm for instant alts. It doesn't devalue effort and patience that players put into their characters. It's not an easy passive income. It doesn't decouple in-game choices from consequences. If you were to remove basic books from the system (say core skills and some t1 ships & modules) you could shield (to some extent) new players from such microtransactions. It's not something I would be happy to see implemented. But it is a system I possibly could live with, unlike the all-out proposal from the blog. They can already sort of do that with plex though. They just buy plex and use ISK for books or w.e. Personally I may be crazy and talking from personal anecdotal evidence but if they lowered the ******* cut throat prices on NEX store items I think that would help. My girlfriend and I haven't bought any skins yet because we think they're too expensive. Lowering the price might encourage more people to buy them so the total revenue would be increased. Again I'm clueless when it comes to marketing, and there may be technical costs associated with having the ability to switch skins so maybe they are trying to offset that. If that's the case IMO they should have communicated that. As it stands it doesn't look like they learned any lessons from incarna. They've set up a problem with SKINs with permanents. If it was just a temporary license, those could really come at a low price but also really thrive the same.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Norian Lonark
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
168
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 21:56:13 -
[4479] - Quote
Dror wrote: Planning better than the next can come from the immense depth of the game. It should come from gameplay, because limiting newbies from learning (through locked ships and playstyles) completely incapacitates the whole beginner demographic. That, unfortunately, includes starter corps, includes referral problems because of limited effectiveness, and just the whole of being a T1 in a T3 meta. They didn't necessarily "plan" anything. They just subbed more.
So your against any kind of progression system or character development... I guess this must ... let me guess... science..
If I don't want progression or character development I can play one of my console games and have a quick fix.... this isn't the RPG experience I want... it doesn't motivate me or make me care about my character at all if I just play it with everything right away, the fact that I can develop and progress and plan actually motivates me.. and guess what after years of playing the game I still need to think about the skills I want and what I would like to do next and train for them.....
I guess I must be a freak of nature being outside the scope of these valid and thorough scientific studies with regards to my motivation
Start wide, expand further, and never look back
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2049
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 22:03:51 -
[4480] - Quote
Dror wrote: Planning better than the next can come from the immense depth of the game. It should come from gameplay, because limiting newbies from learning (through locked ships and playstyles) completely incapacitates the whole beginner demographic. That, unfortunately, includes starter corps, includes referral problems because of limited effectiveness, and just the whole of being a T1 in a T3 meta. They didn't necessarily "plan" anything. They just subbed more.
Planing better than the next guy can only be achieved when there are restriction and hurdles.
It sounds like you are saying you believe players should have access to all ships and modules form the start. If that is the case i assume you are fairly young and haven't been playing games for long. Such a system does not promote longevity in a game which would be particularly bad for an MMO.
One of the most important things in eve is to train your support skills first. A player with the foresight and planning to do this will almost always beat the player hour starts eve and starts training for a BS with small guns.
... That said, I still don't understand your point. Mine is, as in life, training is important and trivialising it makes eve less important.
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks
|
|
8915
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 22:04:42 -
[4481] - Quote
Guys,
We can talk about all economic theory you want. We can even call each other ugly names.
The commoditization of SP will be real. This gives a player/corp/alliance the ability to flat out buy all of it running the price up and give it to their noobs/alts so they can fly x ship to shoot x corp in the face with it.
This also leads to the fact that this now there is a game mechanic that can be exploited by wealthy , high sp players that could cause the destruction of SP in the game. Well since everyone seems to be an armchair economist you all know what happens next and it doesn't result in helping new players.
If you want to help new players just flat out give them sp. Back when I started my original characters they all started with close to 1 mill sp. That was also back when there was a frig, cruiser, battleship and a cu vapor bore was the best miner and a mk5 with local hulls was the best hauler with around 27k m3. Times have changed more sp should be given at the start if you really want to help the n00bs. But that doesn't make them money so that wont work. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 22:21:18 -
[4482] - Quote
Norian Lonark wrote:Dror wrote: Planning better than the next can come from the immense depth of the game. It should come from gameplay, because limiting newbies from learning (through locked ships and playstyles) completely incapacitates the whole beginner demographic. That, unfortunately, includes starter corps, includes referral problems because of limited effectiveness, and just the whole of being a T1 in a T3 meta. They didn't necessarily "plan" anything. They just subbed more.
So your against any kind of progression system or character development... I guess this must ... let me guess... science.. If I don't want progression or character development I can play one of my console games and have a quick fix.... this isn't the RPG experience I want... it doesn't motivate me or make me care about my character at all if I just play it with everything right away, the fact that I can develop and progress and plan actually motivates me.. and guess what after years of playing the game I still need to think about the skills I want and what I would like to do next and train for them..... I guess I must be a freak of nature being outside the scope of these valid and thorough scientific studies with regards to my motivation Did you miss the listed problems with the progression system? Alternative suggestions are welcome; but implying that the crux of all of these problems is above "console games" and "quick fixes" seems pretty ironic. Those with the most money, for example, can "quick fix" through all of it.
Rek Seven wrote:Dror wrote: Planning better than the next can come from the immense depth of the game. It should come from gameplay, because limiting newbies from learning (through locked ships and playstyles) completely incapacitates the whole beginner demographic. That, unfortunately, includes starter corps, includes referral problems because of limited effectiveness, and just the whole of being a T1 in a T3 meta. They didn't necessarily "plan" anything. They just subbed more.
Planing better than the next guy can only be achieved when there are restriction and hurdles. It sounds like you are saying you believe players should have access to all ships and modules form the start. If that is the case i assume you are fairly young and haven't been playing games for long. Such a system does not promote longevity in a game which would be particularly bad for an MMO. One of the most important things in eve is to train your support skills first. A player with the foresight and planning to do this will almost always beat the player hour starts eve and starts training for a BS with small guns. ... That said, I still don't understand your point. Mine is, as in life, training is important and trivialising it makes eve less important. Restrictions.. like coming up on direct counters? How about the restriction of how market savvy or actually skillful the player is? How about the planning that could come from newbies being able to challenge the biggest sovereignties?
You're implying that you have some information on what promotes the success of a game. Can you describe how fresh subs can be interested in a game that makes them feel worthless? ..How veterans can find sustain for a game without fresh subs? In fact, the sentiment is often that a sub game should come with all of its content. Even if that content requires in-game resources, that's a goal. Are you implying that subs would just fund a Titan and unsub?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Kasumi Gotto
Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 22:35:46 -
[4483] - Quote
I started the game back in Beta. If I had my original character, I'd probably be over 200M SP by now. Time like that has given me a lot of opportunity to reflect on what I actually like to fly, roles I like to fill, etc since I have tried them all. Eve's skill system is not a forgiving system in this regard. You will spend real time putting your character through training to try out a role only to find out you either really suck at or just didn't like after all and now want to move onto something else. My original character had A LOT of areas like this. I thought about for years what I would rather have if I could move skill points around.
While some people are claiming that they don't like this system, I am convinced it is the typical overreaction you expect with any change. While yes, it does launch you further ahead if you have lots of ISK, one needs to also read some of the key points made throughout the blog post. High skill points don't account for much. It does get you into that next ship faster but it still isn't an 'I win' button. You only have to look at Suitonia's YT channel at him killing people with far more SP than him as an example that refutes most of the claims people have been making. I am not sure what there really is to abuse in such a system with people with lots of ISK getting more SP when they probably could just buy a higher SP character through the bazaar regardless.
Today I have this new character as well as 4 others. If this skill trading goes into affect, I have already been planning how to use it. The characters I have I bought to catapult me forward in skill point amounts instead of having started over from scratch. It left me with characters with names I don't like though and I would plan on making one I do like and get the skill points I would want in the skill areas I do want to have. I was envious of the Dust 514 skill system for being able to do offline training into an unallocated pool to put the points where you want plus earn extra through combat and mission successes. Such a thing isn't really possible in Eve unfortunately but it wasn't so harsh under such a system to start over on as Eve can be
As a result of this system, I could finally reduce myself to one account and 2 characters instead of 2 accounts and 5 with a bunch of skills on their lists I don't want or need. It will give me, and others, a level of choice and control that hasn't been available for the past decade. |
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2053
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 22:53:14 -
[4484] - Quote
Dror wrote: Restrictions.. like coming up on direct counters? How about the restriction of how market savvy or actually skillful the player is? How about the planning that could come from newbies being able to challenge the biggest sovereignties?
You're implying that you have some information on what promotes the success of a game. Can you describe how fresh subs can be interested in a game that makes them feel worthless? ..How veterans can find sustain for a game without fresh subs? In fact, the sentiment is often that a sub game should come with all of its content. Even if that content requires in-game resources, that's a goal. Are you implying that subs would [without SP] just fund a Titan and unsub?
Edit: Even if they might, that's a huge "if".. They would've played enough to get the resources for such an investment, and by that point they could be so in to the game that the idea of unsubbing seems ludicrous.
Website ate my post...
Basically player savvy comes from experience and research, SP is useless unless you know how to apply it, new players will not appreciate the feeling of being bled for isk and will most likely quit once they reach a long training skill.
You avoided what i said to you originally which was, if ccp wants to help new players, why not give out free sp for doing stuff in the game or playing for x amount of time? If you can't answer that don't bother replying.
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 23:04:01 -
[4485] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Dror wrote: Restrictions.. like coming up on direct counters? How about the restriction of how market savvy or actually skillful the player is? How about the planning that could come from newbies being able to challenge the biggest sovereignties?
You're implying that you have some information on what promotes the success of a game. Can you describe how fresh subs can be interested in a game that makes them feel worthless? ..How veterans can find sustain for a game without fresh subs? In fact, the sentiment is often that a sub game should come with all of its content. Even if that content requires in-game resources, that's a goal. Are you implying that subs would [without SP] just fund a Titan and unsub?
Edit: Even if they might, that's a huge "if".. They would've played enough to get the resources for such an investment, and by that point they could be so in to the game that the idea of unsubbing seems ludicrous.
Website ate my post... Basically player savvy comes from experience and research, SP is useless unless you know how to apply it, new players will not appreciate the feeling of being bled for isk and will most likely quit once they reach a long training skill. You avoided what i said to you originally which was, if ccp wants to help new players, why not give out free sp for doing stuff in the game or playing for x amount of time? If you can't answer that don't bother replying. That's exactly correct.. Yet, it's no logical progression for what I'm saying.
At what point is it OK to stop giving free SP? 10M that can be completely re-oriented however? Then, their only experience with further queueing is completely uninteresting trains? If you're implying they would get bored with a no-SP game, how can you support SP at all?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 23:18:16 -
[4486] - Quote
Kasumi Gotto wrote:I started the game back in Beta. If I had my original character, I'd probably be over 200M SP by now. Time like that has given me a lot of opportunity to reflect on what I actually like to fly, roles I like to fill, etc since I have tried them all. Eve's skill system is not a forgiving system in this regard. You will spend real time putting your character through training to try out a role only to find out you either really suck at or just didn't like after all and now want to move onto something else. My original character had A LOT of areas like this. I thought about for years what I would rather have if I could move skill points around.
While some people are claiming that they don't like this system, I am convinced it is the typical overreaction you expect with any change. While yes, it does launch you further ahead if you have lots of ISK, one needs to also read some of the key points made throughout the blog post. High skill points don't account for much. It does get you into that next ship faster but it still isn't an 'I win' button. You only have to look at Suitonia's YT channel at him killing people with far more SP than him as an example that refutes most of the claims people have been making. I am not sure what there really is to abuse in such a system with people with lots of ISK getting more SP when they probably could just buy a higher SP character through the bazaar regardless.
Today I have this new character as well as 4 others. If this skill trading goes into affect, I have already been planning how to use it. The characters I have I bought to catapult me forward in skill point amounts instead of having started over from scratch. It left me with characters with names I don't like though and I would plan on making one I do like and get the skill points I would want in the skill areas I do want to have. I was envious of the Dust 514 skill system for being able to do offline training into an unallocated pool to put the points where you want plus earn extra through combat and mission successes. Such a thing isn't really possible in Eve unfortunately but it wasn't so harsh under such a system to start over on as Eve can be
As a result of this system, I could finally reduce myself to one account and 2 characters instead of 2 accounts and 5 with a bunch of skills on their lists I don't want or need. It will give me, and others, a level of choice and control that hasn't been available for the past decade. Thank you for sharing your opinion. I'm really glad to hear that at least one vet accsepting opportunities of the new system.
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
738
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 23:34:41 -
[4487] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote:afkalt wrote:General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote: No-one said it was hard to grind for plex, what people are saying is that doing it as a newbro - for the most part - is utterly soul crushing and has a tendency to burn people out. Probably because the time it takes precludes everything else.
And here we are about to pull the trigger on putting even more pressure on newbros to chase the isk; instead of chasing the fun. Fun is what keeps people playing, not a second space job.
I didn't said either that griding is hard to do. It's also time consuming but less than waiting the quee and I want to trade my griding time to SP. "Fun" in yours meaning isn't pays for itself but I had some fun while griding by chating people who also doing this. It's not a pressure - it's an option. You say on one hand that it is an option, yet earlier you say you feel pressued to catch vets. You have to pick one and only one, really. See thing is, whilst you're waiting on teh training queue, you can be playing the game. How fast to fly a gankalyst again? 20 minutes now? Fly with Code, explode stuff, have fun whilst the queue is ticking. The only thing locking you into a gameplay style until XXXX trains is you. Unless you're a focused super sitter, but if that were the case we would not be having this conversation. You're pretending like you know what's motivating and, in the same sentence, implying that some 1-10M SP should retain subs. Except, those subs have come for the gameplay of 400M SP, because that's of what the stories and advertisements are. If by that you mean B-R then that isn't gameplay and never can be. It was a one off unique event. It is impossible that it could occur very often (if at all again) due to the nature of that event. Gameplay is focused around small group interaction mainly with some large groups involved in Sov/Wardecs etc. To advocate changing something as fundamental as the skill system based on one off events is misleading. It has been pointed out before that if players are coming in thinking that B-R happens all the time it is the fault of the advertising, not the game mechanics. While partly correct you are soooo wrong. B-R was 1 of 3 such events in 12 months. Asakia, B-R and events like them are what drew new players to Eve - They will not happen again simply because CCP moved the goal posts in the sandbox (changed game mechanics). So far moving them has seen us - get fatigue and reduced jump ranges (reduced content - players quit) - the dismal boring Fozziesov (Boring game play - more players quit) - One large stagnant group with a 90% afk player base dominate Sov (reduced content). Oh and don't forget the largest Super capital group, out of boredom, using them to kill mining barges.
Now. CCP marketing can get to work and spin that into some advertising. Keep in mind, Eve has a bad reputation among the gaming community due to previous false and misleading advertising.
I wonder if - The reason CCP are selling these new SP packets as a double layered thing - With each one having to be paid for twice - Even if it doesn't work, they've still made money out of existing players. It is a win win, even if it fails to attract new players CCP get money in the bank from existing ones..
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
|
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3198
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 00:16:05 -
[4488] - Quote
Finally caught up.
A few random thoughts for you. Share an account and now the person can do more than just steal your ship, you could log on the next time unable to even fly it. Customer service will have a whole new set of 'my little brother logged on and. . .'
Eve is about living with the choices made. Has there been another instance in the game where you can actually erase the past? I don't mean buying a new alt but actually changing old choices. Removal of skills is Very different from just buying a farmed alt.
I still say that there should be a cost in sp for the removal of the points that lessens with the sp total of the character so aa 5.5 million alt will be very inneficient relative to a 50 million sp character. Yes, it does favour the vets. Why not? There should be some perks for being old.
I think a nice phasing in of the idea would be to start with the top's untradable and 'for personal use only' to see how common That would be prior to pushing it to full trade status.
For me, the biggest thing is Still the appearance of the process from the outside. Will it look like a good deal or a cynical money grab from a company that already has a subscription based model and vanity item micro transactions. If the reputation of the game is 'Greed is Good' then that will impact the new player acquisition and retention. Yes, I worry about things like that.
While I am not as fancy as Mr Epeen,
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
|
Nitsu
Ninja Kitty's The Blood Covenant
27
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 00:56:14 -
[4489] - Quote
YES! This is a perfect tool for a corp owner to use to get younger members into the correct fleet doctrine. Since Fozzie sov empire is draining into null corps and alliances and that leaves only scraps for us to fight over. If i were able to fix certain lacking in skill trains, then i could quite possibly polish a turd and make that turd shine!
You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are being warp scrambled... :(
|
8915
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 01:08:46 -
[4490] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Finally caught up.
A few random thoughts for you. Share an account and now the person can do more than just steal your ship, you could log on the next time unable to even fly it. Customer service will have a whole new set of 'my little brother logged on and. . .'
m
Never thought about this. Or your account got hacked etc etc.
I would also second a changing of sp around for plex. At one point the races and blood lines came with a fixed set of attributes. At one point you couldn't change the vanity of the character as well.
and Nitsu, you would be priced out of that dream in a week just for fun by the isk rich people. |
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 01:13:33 -
[4491] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote: I think a nice phasing in of the idea would be to start with the top's untradable and 'for personal use only' to see how common That would be prior to pushing it to full trade status.
Are you implying that it must be used for respeccing? If it's the case
Quote:Why have diminishing returns at all? We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. And whole porpose of the system is wanishing with your suggestion. I mean how to make sure that system is working without switching it on?
Mike Azariah wrote: Yes, it does favour the vets. Why not?
Agree, they also should benefit from it. |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
467
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 01:30:49 -
[4492] - Quote
Delegate wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote:Delegate wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:a question aside ... are there other aspects in the game in which microtransactions could be integrated in a way everyone is happy with? A way that motivates the majority of the playerbase to establish additional cash flows to ccp? If revenue is the issue, then there are less disruptive solutions. Lets imagine, for example, that you need to buy books with AUR. That is far less ripe for abuse than SP market. It's not a system you can farm for power leveling. It's not a system you can farm for instant alts. It doesn't devalue effort and patience that players put into their characters. It's not an easy passive income. It doesn't decouple in-game choices from consequences. If you were to remove basic books from the system (say core skills and some t1 ships & modules) you could shield (to some extent) new players from such microtransactions. It's not something I would be happy to see implemented. But it is a system I possibly could live with, unlike the all-out proposal from the blog. They can already sort of do that with plex though. They just buy plex and use ISK for books or w.e. You can also grind ISK. If you tie books to AUR then every book is a revenue.
Oh you mean sell them exclusively with AUR. Yeah, no, can't say I can agree there at all.
|
vikari
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Get Off My Lawn
139
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 01:40:21 -
[4493] - Quote
Given the over all negative kick back from this idea, it it to much to ask that CCP take this idea and consider an alternate variation to the idea? People seem to be more supporting of a system where you can take SP from their character and inject it back into the same character. Why not explore this idea? Even diminishing returns with higher SP characters could be considered. The same cost could be used. I think most can accept the price for fixing years of past mistakes, to be worth a small premium. This also doesn't give you something you haven't earned. It can work with the market to allow more characters to better fit a person, as they can simply invest a little money to change small "issues" they reprieve. |
Arec Bardwin
1898
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 02:14:15 -
[4494] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote: For me, the biggest thing is Still the appearance of the process from the outside. Will it look like a good deal or a cynical money grab from a company that already has a subscription based model and vanity item micro transactions. If the reputation of the game is 'Greed is Good' then that will impact the new player acquisition and retention.
This. But I bet CCP are considering sp trade possibly togther with a free to play model. Pay subscription and earn sp at normal rate, play for free and earn sp at a drastically reduced rate. This could seriously increase the player base.
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 02:15:29 -
[4495] - Quote
Arec Bardwin wrote:Mike Azariah wrote: For me, the biggest thing is Still the appearance of the process from the outside. Will it look like a good deal or a cynical money grab from a company that already has a subscription based model and vanity item micro transactions. If the reputation of the game is 'Greed is Good' then that will impact the new player acquisition and retention.
This. But I bet CCP are considering sp trade possibly togther with a free to play model. Pay subscription and earn sp at normal rate, play for free and earn sp at a drastically reduced rate. This could seriously increase the player base. This gets mentioned, but what about alts? I guess it could fit under the "starter" client restriction.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
266
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 05:00:57 -
[4496] - Quote
Arec Bardwin wrote:Mike Azariah wrote: For me, the biggest thing is Still the appearance of the process from the outside. Will it look like a good deal or a cynical money grab from a company that already has a subscription based model and vanity item micro transactions. If the reputation of the game is 'Greed is Good' then that will impact the new player acquisition and retention.
This. But I bet CCP are considering sp trade possibly togther with a free to play model. Pay subscription and earn sp at normal rate, play for free and earn sp at a drastically reduced rate. This could seriously increase the player base.
And that would be a bad system for various reasons. We don't need more players, this whole "omg only 30k ppl online this is horrible" is hilariously mistaken, we need more INVOLVED players and you only have to look at f2p games like WOT to instantly recognise that we really don't want tomatoes in this game, even though they'd make for great targets, because they'd have to dumb down the game even more. Lets keep out the poorfag riffraff as much as possible, thanks.
On top of that this doesn't increase the number of paying players at all, especially because there's tons of older folks who have a bunch of accounts that don't need skill points anymore, those characters are done, so with this new system they'd simply stop paying for that increased SP rate.
That would backfire on a massive scale. |
Dave Stark
7645
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 05:30:38 -
[4497] - Quote
vikari wrote:Given the over all negative kick back from this idea,
eve-o forums are nowhere near the "over all" for this feedback. in fact the negativity is pretty much isolated to eve-o. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
463
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 06:08:34 -
[4498] - Quote
I think if CCP remove skills tresholds for T2 it wouldn't be a bad thing. They are now not "How" we fly them but "When". I had perfect example. Few weeks ago I bought golem. First mission when I used it was amarr epic arc. I fullfilled prequisites (caldari V) but marauders was trained to level II only. Then I'm made a mistake in fitting it (too weak shield booster). I almost lost it in first mission. Same would be with HACs, how good someone fly them would depend from his skills not train to lvl 5 (race) cruiser. We have perfect example with faction ships. Very low entry barrier but many skills to master them properly.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
266
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 06:09:34 -
[4499] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:vikari wrote:Given the over all negative kick back from this idea, eve-o forums are nowhere near the "over all" for this feedback. in fact the negativity is pretty much isolated to eve-o.
You mean "active players", I'd say that's a good thing. And before you start it, no people won't magically come back because of this change. They might come back for a month to (ab)use this idea and then they'll quit again for the reasons they quit earlier. |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2532
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 06:15:16 -
[4500] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:I still say that there should be a cost in sp for the removal of the points that lessens with the sp total of the character so aa 5.5 million alt will be very inneficient relative to a 50 million sp character. Yes, it does favour the vets. Why not? There should be some perks for being old. I really dislike this "Won't somebody think of the children!" attitude. Most people who stay in the game are mature adults (well, some of them are anyway) and I think that inexperience in the game is being confused with inability to make personal decisions.
Let them do what they want. Don't limit new players accessing new content. They will figure it out. And if they make a mistake they will learn from it.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
|
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2532
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 06:19:59 -
[4501] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:vikari wrote:Given the over all negative kick back from this idea, eve-o forums are nowhere near the "over all" for this feedback. in fact the negativity is pretty much isolated to eve-o. You mean "active players", I'd say that's a good thing. And before you start it, no people won't magically come back because of this change. They might come back for a month to (ab)use this idea and then they'll quit again for the reasons they quit earlier. Most of the podcast commentary has been positive regarding the feature and derisory regarding the eve-o forum response. Also, I doubt that CCP would agree that getting former players to log back in is not a good thing.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
463
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 06:27:33 -
[4502] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Let them do what they want. Don't limit new players accessing new content. They will figure it out. And if they make a mistake they will learn from it. Then nerfbat will hit on some hulls, "but but but we put monies on that !!!" They will learn the frist mistake was to start playing.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
268
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 06:36:08 -
[4503] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:vikari wrote:Given the over all negative kick back from this idea, eve-o forums are nowhere near the "over all" for this feedback. in fact the negativity is pretty much isolated to eve-o. You mean "active players", I'd say that's a good thing. And before you start it, no people won't magically come back because of this change. They might come back for a month to (ab)use this idea and then they'll quit again for the reasons they quit earlier. Most of the podcast commentary has been positive regarding the feature and derisory regarding the eve-o forum response. Also, I doubt that CCP would agree that getting former players to log back in is not a good thing.
It's not if they have to sell out in order to get a temporary surge only to die out 1-2 months later. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4054
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 06:38:39 -
[4504] - Quote
Wait a minute... why are some people talking about free to play now?
I mentioned it as a tinfoil hat explanation for the massive power of the TQ-III server, but CCP can't be considering that seriously... right?
I mean, the foundation of EVE (what is left of it) are the social bonds. And social bonds are incompatible with the mass scale of poor quality noobs associated to free to play.
Imagine if you can, the "Help" channel as a General chat of a F2P. Imagine you are a good potential EVE player and your first task is ignoring the vey plsce where you could ask for help if weren't for the hate-drooling kiddos scrolling it at 1,000 lines per minute...
And then consider how CCP has done zill to improve the game experience of the usual MMORPG player, aka the solo casual PvE (highsec) crowd. The one that now is leaving highsec slow but steady, killing EVE one sub at a time. The one which never gets a chance to play EVE his way, rather is encouraged to stop playing his way and please start playing the game "right", multiplayer second-jobbing anywhere but highsec gameplay.
It would be weird if CCP would rather turn EVE upside down than do something for their bread and butter... the silent, often scorned, unglamurous but abundant and reliable highsec player.
Seriously: Why the mention of free to play? Are you all crazy?
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
268
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 06:41:38 -
[4505] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Wait a minute... why are some people talking about free to play now? I mentioned it as a tinfoil hat explanation for the massive power of the TQ-III server, but CCP can't be considering that seriously... right? I mean, the foundation of EVE (what is left of it) are the social bonds. And social bonds are incompatible with the mass scale of poor quality noobs associated to free to play. Imagine if you can, the "Help" channel as a General chat of a F2P. Imagine you are a good potential EVE player and your first task is ignoring the vey plsce where you could ask for help if weren't for the hate-drooling kiddos scrolling it at 1,000 lines per minute... And then consider how CCP has done zill to improve the game experience of the usual MMORPG player, aka the solo casual PvE (highsec) crowd. The one that now is leaving highsec slow but steady, killing EVE one sub at a time. The one which never gets a chance to play EVE his way, rather is encouraged to stop playing his way and please start playing the game "right", multiplayer second-jobbing anywhere but highsec gameplay. It would be weird if CCP would rather turn EVE upside down than do something for their bread and butter... the silent, often scorned, unglamurous but abundant and reliable highsec player. Seriously: Why the mention of free to play? Are you all crazy?
People "want" stuff because it suits their personal needs regardless of how dumb or damaging it is, be it f2p or this silly skill trading idea. |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2532
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 06:50:30 -
[4506] - Quote
(Stupid forum)
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two Reckoning Star Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 06:50:34 -
[4507] - Quote
I listened to all the voices in my head and the majority ruled AYE.
Permission to deploy this feature in a patch granted CCP. |
Dave Stark
7645
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 06:54:58 -
[4508] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:vikari wrote:Given the over all negative kick back from this idea, eve-o forums are nowhere near the "over all" for this feedback. in fact the negativity is pretty much isolated to eve-o. You mean "active players", I'd say that's a good thing. And before you start it, no people won't magically come back because of this change. They might come back for a month to (ab)use this idea and then they'll quit again for the reasons they quit earlier.
most people on reddit are active players. granted, not all are. however, pretending r/eve is full of unsubbed players is even more absurd than pretending this thread is the sum of all feedback for this idea. |
Dave Stark
7645
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 06:56:04 -
[4509] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Wait a minute... why are some people talking about free to play now? I mentioned it as a tinfoil hat explanation for the massive power of the TQ-III server, but CCP can't be considering that seriously... right? I mean, the foundation of EVE (what is left of it) are the social bonds. And social bonds are incompatible with the mass scale of poor quality noobs associated to free to play. Imagine if you can, the "Help" channel as a General chat of a F2P. Imagine you are a good potential EVE player and your first task is ignoring the vey plsce where you could ask for help if weren't for the hate-drooling kiddos scrolling it at 1,000 lines per minute... And then consider how CCP has done zill to improve the game experience of the usual MMORPG player, aka the solo casual PvE (highsec) crowd. The one that now is leaving highsec slow but steady, killing EVE one sub at a time. The one which never gets a chance to play EVE his way, rather is encouraged to stop playing his way and please start playing the game "right", multiplayer second-jobbing anywhere but highsec gameplay. It would be weird if CCP would rather turn EVE upside down than do something for their bread and butter... the silent, often scorned, unglamurous but abundant and reliable highsec player. Seriously: Why the mention of free to play? Are you all crazy? People "want" stuff because it suits their personal needs regardless of how dumb or damaging it is, be it f2p or this silly skill trading idea.
considering in a game people's personal agenda is to have fun - it's hardly surprising when people push things that make things more fun for them. |
Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
1483
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 07:14:07 -
[4510] - Quote
*reads the dev blog*
This.....is a very bad idea.
Naturally, CCP will go the Full ****** and implement it in the next major update.
*sighs*
Everything in EVE is a trap.
And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)
You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.
Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
|
|
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2064
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 07:32:12 -
[4511] - Quote
Dror wrote: At what point is it OK to stop giving free SP? 10M that can be completely re-oriented however? Then, their only experience with further queueing is completely uninteresting trains?
When to stop giving out SP would be down to CCP to decide. Ideally it would be based on stats only ccp have that show how long the average player takes to get "hooked".
Additional i think all players should get free SP on their characters birthday. New players should get it after playing the game for a month past their trial account. This would:
1. Help new players become "useful" to their chosen corp faster 2. Reward long term/loyal players 3. Help returning players experience new content quicker.
Dror wrote: If you're implying they would get bored with a no-SP game, how can you support SP at all?
That didn't make any sense. It's like saying "If you think apples are nutritious, how can you support the eating of apples?"... I already explained why I feel EVEs training system adds value.
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3052
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 07:32:48 -
[4512] - Quote
This is not about helping new players, or retaining new players, allowing vets to sell skill points or creating a new players market.
This is about CCP not doing very well financially and desperately needing a new revenue stream.
This is not a signature.
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
269
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 07:34:13 -
[4513] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Wait a minute... why are some people talking about free to play now? I mentioned it as a tinfoil hat explanation for the massive power of the TQ-III server, but CCP can't be considering that seriously... right? I mean, the foundation of EVE (what is left of it) are the social bonds. And social bonds are incompatible with the mass scale of poor quality noobs associated to free to play. Imagine if you can, the "Help" channel as a General chat of a F2P. Imagine you are a good potential EVE player and your first task is ignoring the vey plsce where you could ask for help if weren't for the hate-drooling kiddos scrolling it at 1,000 lines per minute... And then consider how CCP has done zill to improve the game experience of the usual MMORPG player, aka the solo casual PvE (highsec) crowd. The one that now is leaving highsec slow but steady, killing EVE one sub at a time. The one which never gets a chance to play EVE his way, rather is encouraged to stop playing his way and please start playing the game "right", multiplayer second-jobbing anywhere but highsec gameplay. It would be weird if CCP would rather turn EVE upside down than do something for their bread and butter... the silent, often scorned, unglamurous but abundant and reliable highsec player. Seriously: Why the mention of free to play? Are you all crazy? People "want" stuff because it suits their personal needs regardless of how dumb or damaging it is, be it f2p or this silly skill trading idea. considering in a game people's personal agenda is to have fun - it's hardly surprising when people push things that make things more fun for them.
If CCP would have a new idea "for 5 plex you will get a fully maxed out pilot and 20 fully fitted titans to go with it", sounds like great fun wouldn't it. What are the chances that a majority of people would vote for that and as such CCP would (have/want to) implement it?
Hey, ppl just want some fun and that is simply the only factor to be considered according to your :logic:.
|
Dave Stark
7647
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 07:39:16 -
[4514] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Wait a minute... why are some people talking about free to play now? I mentioned it as a tinfoil hat explanation for the massive power of the TQ-III server, but CCP can't be considering that seriously... right? I mean, the foundation of EVE (what is left of it) are the social bonds. And social bonds are incompatible with the mass scale of poor quality noobs associated to free to play. Imagine if you can, the "Help" channel as a General chat of a F2P. Imagine you are a good potential EVE player and your first task is ignoring the vey plsce where you could ask for help if weren't for the hate-drooling kiddos scrolling it at 1,000 lines per minute... And then consider how CCP has done zill to improve the game experience of the usual MMORPG player, aka the solo casual PvE (highsec) crowd. The one that now is leaving highsec slow but steady, killing EVE one sub at a time. The one which never gets a chance to play EVE his way, rather is encouraged to stop playing his way and please start playing the game "right", multiplayer second-jobbing anywhere but highsec gameplay. It would be weird if CCP would rather turn EVE upside down than do something for their bread and butter... the silent, often scorned, unglamurous but abundant and reliable highsec player. Seriously: Why the mention of free to play? Are you all crazy? People "want" stuff because it suits their personal needs regardless of how dumb or damaging it is, be it f2p or this silly skill trading idea. considering in a game people's personal agenda is to have fun - it's hardly surprising when people push things that make things more fun for them. If CCP would have a new idea "for 5 plex you will get a fully maxed out pilot and 20 fully fitted titans to go with it", sounds like great fun wouldn't it. What are the chances that a majority of people would vote for that and as such CCP would (have/want to) implement it? Hey, ppl just want some fun and that is simply the only factor to be considered according to your :logic:.
i appreciate you're making a rhetorical question up there, however had you appropriately priced it (not 5 plex) it might better illustrate the point you're making.
also, the point your making already exists. for a number of plex you can buy 20 fit titans and a pilot to fly them. |
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2064
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 07:39:53 -
[4515] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:This is about CCP not doing very well financially and desperately needing a new revenue stream.
I heard a CCP dev (i think it was fozzie) on a podcast recently bragging that eve is doing well financial... They probably just need cash to put in to side projects like gunjack.
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
269
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 07:41:42 -
[4516] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Wait a minute... why are some people talking about free to play now? I mentioned it as a tinfoil hat explanation for the massive power of the TQ-III server, but CCP can't be considering that seriously... right? I mean, the foundation of EVE (what is left of it) are the social bonds. And social bonds are incompatible with the mass scale of poor quality noobs associated to free to play. Imagine if you can, the "Help" channel as a General chat of a F2P. Imagine you are a good potential EVE player and your first task is ignoring the vey plsce where you could ask for help if weren't for the hate-drooling kiddos scrolling it at 1,000 lines per minute... And then consider how CCP has done zill to improve the game experience of the usual MMORPG player, aka the solo casual PvE (highsec) crowd. The one that now is leaving highsec slow but steady, killing EVE one sub at a time. The one which never gets a chance to play EVE his way, rather is encouraged to stop playing his way and please start playing the game "right", multiplayer second-jobbing anywhere but highsec gameplay. It would be weird if CCP would rather turn EVE upside down than do something for their bread and butter... the silent, often scorned, unglamurous but abundant and reliable highsec player. Seriously: Why the mention of free to play? Are you all crazy? People "want" stuff because it suits their personal needs regardless of how dumb or damaging it is, be it f2p or this silly skill trading idea. considering in a game people's personal agenda is to have fun - it's hardly surprising when people push things that make things more fun for them. If CCP would have a new idea "for 5 plex you will get a fully maxed out pilot and 20 fully fitted titans to go with it", sounds like great fun wouldn't it. What are the chances that a majority of people would vote for that and as such CCP would (have/want to) implement it? Hey, ppl just want some fun and that is simply the only factor to be considered according to your :logic:. i appreciate you're making a rhetorical question up there, however had you appropriately priced it (not 5 plex) it might better illustrate the point you're making. also, the point your making already exists. for a number of plex you can buy 20 fit titans and a pilot to fly them.
I see you're avoiding the point made: "people want to have fun so we must have this" is a terrible logic. |
Dave Stark
7647
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 07:50:10 -
[4517] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:I see you're avoiding the point made: "people want to have fun so we must have this" is a terrible logic.
i didn't avoid your point - it already exists. so if anything you're agreeing with me.
if some one finds it fun to purchase a titan pilot and 20 titans he already can. |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2533
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 08:04:11 -
[4518] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:This is about CCP not doing very well financially and desperately needing a new revenue stream. I heard a CCP dev (i think it was fozzie) on a podcast recently bragging that eve is doing well financial... They probably just need cash to put in to side projects like gunjack. Do you know which podcast?
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
272
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 08:09:25 -
[4519] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:I see you're avoiding the point made: "people want to have fun so we must have this" is a terrible logic. i didn't avoid your point - it already exists. so if anything you're agreeing with me. if some one finds it fun to purchase a titan pilot and 20 titans he already can.
Yeah but it would be fun to get it at 5 plex. |
Dave Stark
7647
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 08:10:38 -
[4520] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:I see you're avoiding the point made: "people want to have fun so we must have this" is a terrible logic. i didn't avoid your point - it already exists. so if anything you're agreeing with me. if some one finds it fun to purchase a titan pilot and 20 titans he already can. Yeah but it would be fun to get it at 5 plex.
i agree. b-r every day. |
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 08:10:46 -
[4521] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Wait a minute... why are some people talking about free to play now? I mentioned it as a tinfoil hat explanation for the massive power of the TQ-III server, but CCP can't be considering that seriously... right? I mean, the foundation of EVE (what is left of it) are the social bonds. And social bonds are incompatible with the mass scale of poor quality noobs associated to free to play. Imagine if you can, the "Help" channel as a General chat of a F2P. Imagine you are a good potential EVE player and your first task is ignoring the vey plsce where you could ask for help if weren't for the hate-drooling kiddos scrolling it at 1,000 lines per minute... And then consider how CCP has done zill to improve the game experience of the usual MMORPG player, aka the solo casual PvE (highsec) crowd. The one that now is leaving highsec slow but steady, killing EVE one sub at a time. The one which never gets a chance to play EVE his way, rather is encouraged to stop playing his way and please start playing the game "right", multiplayer second-jobbing anywhere but highsec gameplay. It would be weird if CCP would rather turn EVE upside down than do something for their bread and butter... the silent, often scorned, unglamurous but abundant and reliable highsec player. Seriously: Why the mention of free to play? Are you all crazy? Before argument that expirence>skill points: p2w p2w p2w Now: f2p fp2 2pf Acronyms makes me crazy! I could have free sub only because someone paid for it and let me buy it. If you want to decrese population of "free" players just don't sell PLEX on the market. But Irish people wont appreciate that decision. |
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2065
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 08:33:20 -
[4522] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:This is about CCP not doing very well financially and desperately needing a new revenue stream. I heard a CCP dev (i think it was fozzie) on a podcast recently bragging that eve is doing well financial... They probably just need cash to put in to side projects like gunjack. Do you know which podcast?
I think it was the EN24 podcast ep. 9 but I can't be sure without listening to the entire thing again.
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1817
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 08:44:18 -
[4523] - Quote
Dror wrote:... Ah, there it is. This underlined claim has no precedent, especially in this conversation. The whole point of established motivation theories is commonality. ...
And I disgree with that view as we are all motivated by different things. You cannot whitewash over the arguments of everyone here who is aganist this proposal by telling us that we all think the same and have the same motivations. That is clearly untrue.
Dror wrote:... 25% unsubs of some hundreds of thousands? In all respect, that's a tiny amount. WoW lost 50%, but the trend is a "lack of content". Oh, sweet -- a sandbox game can have unlimited content without restrictions undermining fresh subs and interest.
So a 5% increase in subs gives huge profits but a 25% loss would be a tiny drop in profits? Maybe someone with better maths skills than I can point out who silly that is...
Dror wrote:...The implication is still, apparently, that SP doesn't come upon the same reward problems as other extrinsic motivations, which are actually reported as reduced direction and creativity. As with the NPE videos, it's following that Achievements line and having no clue how you got there or no clue what to do next. Maslow's hierarchy would state that the most motivating thing is self-actualization. Yet, how can interested subs show how to be great if both of their skills disallow that?
Halo is the example? Its multiplayer experience sets the experience on a tuned playing field -- same stats, etc. Mario? False equivalence. These aren't sandbox games, nor are they multiplayer. Earning and progression? How is it progression being limited to a tiny window of diversity and unsubbing?
The implication is that training and creating your character is an intrinsic part of the experience in EvE. The statement that this is so from CCP Rise flat out shoots down your agenda of removing skill points entirely. You have also never addressed in either thread you have pushed this in how the impact of tearing the heart out of the existing code and game mechanism would be accomplished. How the frankly obvious impact on the market of every player being able to do everything perfectly would affect the game. You also ignore how alienating a good portion of the existing customers of CCP would be bad business practice.
I already pointed out that Halo etc are simplified versions of the gating system we have in EvE so. Of course the skill ssytem is progression, you guide your character by making choices and open up other options in game available to you. Of course you may think this is only important to those of us who are more RP minded but many disagree and also to discount that area of the player base is stupid.
Dror wrote:... The fun comes from being competitive at everything.. (of interest). If a sub gets a character with 35M SP, what if he'd like to recruit his crew? This very idea should explain exactly how essential freedom is.
Fun comes from the individual, it comes from what they enjoy in game and neither you or any other person can define what any individual will find fun. There are many players in the game who will look at you idea that everyone should have acees to capitals and fly in PvP and hate the idea because they don't like capital ships, TiDi, PvP combat or all three together. You are trying to define what fun is for everyone which you simply cannot do. You are trying to use studies to back up your idea of fun for everyone which has been questioned and shot down by many, and is based on your false premise that you know what is fun for everyone.
You are also ignoring the fact that there are many characters who will 'recruit his(her) crew' because that is what they enjoy, helping people, guiding people in there choices, assisting with skill growth etc etc. How does that fit with your model of 'give everyone everything'.
If you got your no skills utopia what would you do then? Not everyone has access to every ship because of cost. Isn't that then another artificial barrier to your idea of 'fun for all'? So what then, free ships of any kind for all? Where do you stop? |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1817
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 08:54:21 -
[4524] - Quote
Dror wrote:... Did you miss the listed problems with the progression system? Alternative suggestions are welcome; but implying that the crux of all of these problems is above "console games" and "quick fixes" seems pretty ironic. Those with the most money, for example, can "quick fix" through all of it.
....
Did you miss the fact that most people against this idea do not want a 'quick fix' game where everythging is available immediately? Let me guess, we are all wrong and don't even know what we like and enjoy because 'science' tells us so.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1819
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 09:08:09 -
[4525] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:...
most people on reddit are active players. granted, not all are. however, pretending r/eve is full of unsubbed players is even more absurd than pretending this thread is the sum of all feedback for this idea.
Surely it is equally absurd to suggest that the largely negative feedback from a forum where only subbed players can post should be ignored. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 09:12:38 -
[4526] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Surely it is equally absurd to suggest that the largely negative feedback from a forum where only subbed players can post should be ignored.
afkalt wrote:
I think they need to be reaaaaaaally careful they don't just follow the popular voice.
Billions of people use McDonalds - doesn't make it smart.
There is often decent chat there, but putting too much emphasis on it is dangerous. The popular decision is not always the right one.
He is on your side BTW. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1819
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 09:20:19 -
[4527] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Surely it is equally absurd to suggest that the largely negative feedback from a forum where only subbed players can post should be ignored.
afkalt wrote:
I think they need to be reaaaaaaally careful they don't just follow the popular voice.
Billions of people use McDonalds - doesn't make it smart.
There is often decent chat there, but putting too much emphasis on it is dangerous. The popular decision is not always the right one.
He is on your side BTW.
Yes he is, we both think that all opinions need to be considered. Both for and against. There's also an implication in previous posts that reddit is the true popular voice which does not invalidate my point that you cannot simply ignore the views of the majority here because they are negative towards the change. The majority view towards citadels originally was largely negative. CCP listened and changed them for the better. I really hope they listen here too. |
Dave Stark
7647
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 09:23:23 -
[4528] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...
most people on reddit are active players. granted, not all are. however, pretending r/eve is full of unsubbed players is even more absurd than pretending this thread is the sum of all feedback for this idea. Surely it is equally absurd to suggest that the largely negative feedback from a forum where only subbed players can post should be ignored.
i've never suggested they should be ignored. merely pointed out that this place isn't the only place with feedback |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
268
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 09:27:42 -
[4529] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote:... Did you miss the listed problems with the progression system? Alternative suggestions are welcome; but implying that the crux of all of these problems is above "console games" and "quick fixes" seems pretty ironic. Those with the most money, for example, can "quick fix" through all of it.
.... Did you miss the fact that most people against this idea do not want a 'quick fix' game where everythging is available immediately? Let me guess, we are all wrong and don't even know what we like and enjoy because 'science' tells us so. yes, you are wrong! did it cross your mind even for a second that what is was "hard" for you then, it's 2x3x harder for a new player today? ofc not, but let's talk about good old times... when a new player could join a main alliance op in what, a month? how many corps had recruiting req like hac/recon/t3 lvl5? the main fleets where t1 bs, and no one was bitching at you for bringing a t1 fitted bs, and you knew ballance passes where like years between... and, about all that "hard" training, do you also forget to add how t3 ships for ex, where not even in game then, and we trained for them one at a time as they where released...
now? a new player need to train hac/recon/logi/t3 like yesterday; and most of the time when they finish trainig for whatever flavor of the month ship alliances are using, boom! CCP drop the nerfhammer, and huh, you need to start training towards another ship, all over again... it's easy for someone like you to say "heh they don't need a quick fix" when you can switch from one doctrine to another in the same day, isn't it? is it that hard for you guys to comprehend that 10-12 years of training skill it's a major advantage for "vets" and at the same time a huge handicap for a new player? you already have huge advantages in sp/exp/isk/ stuff over a new player, is it that hard for you to accept that they need a bit of "support" till they reach a comfort zone of about 10/15/20 mil sps? and not free support, they will have to buy it from olders players with isk ! how risk adverse can you bee? |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 09:31:28 -
[4530] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: does not invalidate my point.
Yeap, it does not invalidate but only contradict. And it's very comfortable for you because if start arguing with both of them then I will eventually contradict with myself. |
|
Metal Hunter
The Explorers Club
74
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 09:31:29 -
[4531] - Quote
Than simpler, easier do game, it is closer to those to the win button. That that was considered as difficulties and inconvenience in game, kept many players in game and forced to come into it every day. Difficulties forced players to lay ways for achievement of the objectives. At players was to what to aspire. Now in game less that to what it becomes would be desirable to achieve. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1823
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 09:49:47 -
[4532] - Quote
gascanu wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote:... Did you miss the listed problems with the progression system? Alternative suggestions are welcome; but implying that the crux of all of these problems is above "console games" and "quick fixes" seems pretty ironic. Those with the most money, for example, can "quick fix" through all of it.
.... Did you miss the fact that most people against this idea do not want a 'quick fix' game where everythging is available immediately? Let me guess, we are all wrong and don't even know what we like and enjoy because 'science' tells us so. yes, you are wrong! did it cross your mind even for a second that what is was "hard" for you then, it's 2x3x harder for a new player today? ofc not, but let's talk about good old times... when a new player could join a main alliance op in what, a month? how many corps had recruiting req like hac/recon/t3 lvl5? the main fleets where t1 bs, and no one was bitching at you for bringing a t1 fitted bs, and you knew ballance passes where like years between... and, about all that "hard" training, do you also forget to add how t3 ships for ex, where not even in game then, and we trained for them one at a time as they where released... now? a new player need to train hac/recon/logi/t3 like yesterday; and most of the time when they finish trainig for whatever flavor of the month ship alliances are using, boom! CCP drop the nerfhammer, and huh, you need to start training towards another ship, all over again... it's easy for someone like you to say "heh they don't need a quick fix" when you can switch from one doctrine to another in the same day, isn't it? is it that hard for you guys to comprehend that 10-12 years of training skill it's a major advantage for "vets" and at the same time a huge handicap for a new player? you already have huge advantages in sp/exp/isk/ stuff over a new player, is it that hard for you to accept that they need a bit of "support" till they reach a comfort zone of about 10/15/20 mil sps? and not free support, they will have to buy it from olders players with isk ! how risk adverse can you bee?
Firstly you miss the point that you cannot tell another person what kind of game they like. The players here against the idea play Eve because it *isn't* a quick fix game. That is what they signed up to and why they stayed.
Secondly it was never hard for me, I planned, I researched, I learnt by trial and error and all the while I was undocking and having fun in the game by actually playing it instead of worrying about this, that or the other. You talk about doctrines, fleets etc and seem to be only considering PvP content. I've been playing for around 3 years (so by no means a vet) and yet I've never been in a PvP fleet, never joined a big alliance and never ever missed either because I do everything else the game has to offer. You do not need 20 mil to fly frigs, destroyers or cruisers effectively. You will need significantly less to fly the pirate ships of any flavour effectively if you don't want to wait until tech II ships (or in many cases simply because they are better)
I am not and have never been risk averse. I'm currently moving down to a WH for more fun and guess what? I am going to be flying either pirate ships (all tech I and easily trained into) or a Dominix (yes you guessed it, a tech I BS). Players do not need huge amounts of SP to go and have fun, they just need to play the game.
P.S. those players wanting to go fly in whatever they can should try spectre fleets or whatever they are called. As I understand it they have no requirements on what you can fly. Same for Brave etc. But hey, what do I know? I'm to busy doing everything else that isn't PvP combat... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1823
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 09:52:08 -
[4533] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...
most people on reddit are active players. granted, not all are. however, pretending r/eve is full of unsubbed players is even more absurd than pretending this thread is the sum of all feedback for this idea. Surely it is equally absurd to suggest that the largely negative feedback from a forum where only subbed players can post should be ignored. i've never suggested they should be ignored. merely pointed out that this place isn't the only place with feedback
It seems we're agreeing in a roundabout way. We should stop that, we have reputations to consider (you developers can't be agreeing with us players now can you ) |
Norian Lonark
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
171
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 09:53:30 -
[4534] - Quote
gascanu wrote: yes, you are wrong! did it cross your mind even for a second that what is was "hard" for you then, it's 2x3x harder for a new player today? ofc not, but let's talk about good old times... when a new player could join a main alliance op in what, a month? how many corps had recruiting req like hac/recon/t3 lvl5? the main fleets where t1 bs, and no one was bitching at you for bringing a t1 fitted bs, and you knew ballance passes where like years between... and, about all that "hard" training, do you also forget to add how t3 ships for ex, where not even in game then, and we trained for them one at a time as they where released...
now? a new player need to train hac/recon/logi/t3 like yesterday; and most of the time when they finish trainig for whatever flavor of the month ship alliances are using, boom! CCP drop the nerfhammer, and huh, you need to start training towards another ship, all over again... it's easy for someone like you to say "heh they don't need a quick fix" when you can switch from one doctrine to another in the same day, isn't it? is it that hard for you guys to comprehend that 10-12 years of training skill it's a major advantage for "vets" and at the same time a huge handicap for a new player? you already have huge advantages in sp/exp/isk/ stuff over a new player, is it that hard for you to accept that they need a bit of "support" till they reach a comfort zone of about 10/15/20 mil sps? and not free support, they will have to buy it from olders players with isk ! how risk adverse can you bee?
But not all corps have such requirements?
What about the new player joining a corp which will welcome them, what about a new player doing their own thing with a group of similar minded people while they play and decide what they want to do. Why does a new player have to join these alliances have they no other choice? Why do we have this requirement that a new player must join one of the big alliances from day one and become a drone?
This post in my view shows how open to abuse this sort of system would be in a making alliances and corps even less considerate of new players and the effect that it will have with them investing their massive resources into abusing this mechanic to create even more perfect alts fit for their needs.
I am not saying CCP shouldnt look how the new player experience can be improved and boosted... but I just dont feel that SP trading is the right way to go and has so many rammifications and possibilities to exploit.
Start wide, expand further, and never look back
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 10:02:48 -
[4535] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: it was never hard for me, I planned, I researched, I learnt by trial and error and all the while I was undocking and having fun in the game by actually playing it instead of worrying about this, that or the other. Good for you.
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: you miss the point that you cannot tell another person what kind of game they like But I'm can pursuit only one goal at the time. And I want to trade my active playing hours(isk) for boosting my SP to progress faster at my plan. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2287
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 10:18:47 -
[4536] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...
most people on reddit are active players. granted, not all are. however, pretending r/eve is full of unsubbed players is even more absurd than pretending this thread is the sum of all feedback for this idea. Surely it is equally absurd to suggest that the largely negative feedback from a forum where only subbed players can post should be ignored.
Reddit has (or had) a serious and concerted downvote brigade. Any and all dissent was downvoted to hell and back.
Basically if you don't think this is the best thing since they ishtar nerf, you're a scrub/mouth breathing ****** [These would be quotes, by the way].
Ironically half the people bigging it up on reddit don't even understand how it works. |
Jadon Wallace
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 10:23:07 -
[4537] - Quote
Correct me if I am wrong but this seems a lot like a pay-to-win feature? Oh I am ISK rich let's keep buying these skillpackets to up my SP with no time investment, break out the credit card anyone? I am very concerned if this was to become a reality, CCP going free to play next with micro transactions? Kind of takes away the value of SP this and I don't see it helping the new player experience as most newbies don't have that much ISK anyway, surely there are better ways to improve the NPE than this? |
Dave Stark
7648
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 10:30:12 -
[4538] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...
most people on reddit are active players. granted, not all are. however, pretending r/eve is full of unsubbed players is even more absurd than pretending this thread is the sum of all feedback for this idea. Surely it is equally absurd to suggest that the largely negative feedback from a forum where only subbed players can post should be ignored. Reddit has (or had) a serious and concerted downvote brigade. Any and all dissent was downvoted to hell and back. Basically if you don't think this is the best thing since they ishtar nerf, you're a scrub/mouth breathing ****** [These would be quotes, by the way]. Ironically half the people bigging it up on reddit don't even understand how it works.
unlike almost everyone on here deriding it don't really seem to grasp how it works either. |
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 10:30:27 -
[4539] - Quote
I just cancelled my account. You can leave a message why you quit in the process. I did.
Was hard for me to cancel after 9 years of continuous subscription, but I think, that's the best vote i can give for that terrible idea.
If they change their mind, i stand ready to jump back into new eden.
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2287
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 10:38:29 -
[4540] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...
most people on reddit are active players. granted, not all are. however, pretending r/eve is full of unsubbed players is even more absurd than pretending this thread is the sum of all feedback for this idea. Surely it is equally absurd to suggest that the largely negative feedback from a forum where only subbed players can post should be ignored. Reddit has (or had) a serious and concerted downvote brigade. Any and all dissent was downvoted to hell and back. Basically if you don't think this is the best thing since they ishtar nerf, you're a scrub/mouth breathing ****** [These would be quotes, by the way]. Ironically half the people bigging it up on reddit don't even understand how it works. unlike almost everyone on here deriding it don't really seem to grasp how it works either.
This as may be, at least dissenters/people not in agreement with the "party line" are not effectively gagged. |
|
Dave Stark
7649
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 10:47:55 -
[4541] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...
most people on reddit are active players. granted, not all are. however, pretending r/eve is full of unsubbed players is even more absurd than pretending this thread is the sum of all feedback for this idea. Surely it is equally absurd to suggest that the largely negative feedback from a forum where only subbed players can post should be ignored. Reddit has (or had) a serious and concerted downvote brigade. Any and all dissent was downvoted to hell and back. Basically if you don't think this is the best thing since they ishtar nerf, you're a scrub/mouth breathing ****** [These would be quotes, by the way]. Ironically half the people bigging it up on reddit don't even understand how it works. unlike almost everyone on here deriding it don't really seem to grasp how it works either. This as may be, at least dissenters/people not in agreement with the "party line" are not effectively gagged.
only if people choose to sort by upvotes/downvotes. nothing stops you sorting chronologically. i view it chronologically. makes it far easier to read imo. |
Malou Hashur
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
80
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 12:05:17 -
[4542] - Quote
No Dev response for 4 days and 60 pages......the point has been reached where they shut up shop and ignore all further comments.
Told ya it was a done deal already :)
CCP Philosophy ==>>
If it works, break it. If itGÇÖs broken, leave it and break something else.
Ignore all Forum comments that raise issues and concerns about our "features", and bring said "features" in anyway.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 12:13:09 -
[4543] - Quote
Vahligmarr wrote:Was hard for me to cancel
Quiting is most easiest way to deal with problems exept you are addicted one. If it's the case than it wont be lasting for long time until new dose.
|
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 12:13:51 -
[4544] - Quote
gascanu wrote: .....
is it that hard for you guys to comprehend that 10-12 years of training skill it's a major advantage for "vets" and at the same time a huge handicap for a new player? you already have huge advantages in sp/exp/isk/ stuff over a new player, is it that hard for you to accept that they need a bit of "support" till they reach a comfort zone of about 10/15/20 mil sps? and not free support, they will have to buy it from olders players with isk ! how risk adverse can you bee?
I have no problem when new players get some support to have a even more comfortable start in new eden.
I have a problem, with somebody, who thought out a new way to get more money out of the customers, is telling me, its not a money grab, its all about newbies and their fun....
Do you really think, when some Devs are sitting together, thinking about how to get more fun into Eve for everyone, the outcome is, let us sell skill points for real money and everybody is happy?
If you ask me, there was the intention to get
- more money out of micro transactions, and after realizing that the demand for skins and clothes is limited
- they threw in the most valuable thing, skill points for sale
- constructed a money sink around it, the more you inject, the less you get out of it (a typical drug addiction principle btw)
- and describing it in an DevPost as something completely different...
Obvious...
Instead they should find a way to let pay their experiments, like gun jack, dust, valkyrie and what else, for themselves, focusing on their core game, giving Eve subscribers what they payed for, a beautiful galaxy with more and more content, long awaited game fixes, not more, not less.... |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
269
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 12:15:42 -
[4545] - Quote
Jadon Wallace wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but this seems a lot like a pay-to-win feature? Oh I am ISK rich let's keep buying these skillpackets to up my SP with no time investment, break out the credit card anyone? I am very concerned if this was to become a reality, CCP going free to play next with micro transactions? Kind of takes away the value of SP this and I don't see it helping the new player experience as most newbies don't have that much ISK anyway, surely there are better ways to improve the NPE than this? "pay to win" like you call it it's already here: you can buy isk or you can buys some 20/40/50 mil sp character. all of it with a credit card via plex; what this system is going to change is lower the entry point from about > 10 plex to about 1 plex
|
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 12:24:07 -
[4546] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Vahligmarr wrote:Was hard for me to cancel
Quiting is most easiest way to deal with problems exept you are addicted one. If it's the case than it wont be lasting for long time until new dose.
I won't get addicted to SP Pills for sure... |
Shiva 113
Yggdrasill Corporation
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 12:27:01 -
[4547] - Quote
I am absolutely against this change.
Commitment to the characters and living with the choices made is one of the few things that make Eve uniquely immersive.
The proposed change would turn this MMORPG to a MMO Arcade - at best a leisurely but expensive space sim. So ...
NO! because of everything Eve stands for.
|
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
270
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 12:29:04 -
[4548] - Quote
Vahligmarr wrote:gascanu wrote: .....
is it that hard for you guys to comprehend that 10-12 years of training skill it's a major advantage for "vets" and at the same time a huge handicap for a new player? you already have huge advantages in sp/exp/isk/ stuff over a new player, is it that hard for you to accept that they need a bit of "support" till they reach a comfort zone of about 10/15/20 mil sps? and not free support, they will have to buy it from olders players with isk ! how risk adverse can you bee?
I have no problem when new players get some support to have a even more comfortable start in new eden. I have a problem, with somebody, who thought out a new way to get more money out of the customers, is telling me, its not a money grab, its all about newbies and their fun.... Do you really think, when some Devs are sitting together, thinking about how to get more fun into Eve for everyone, the outcome is, let us sell skill points for real money and everybody is happy? If you ask me, there was the intention to get - more money out of micro transactions, and after realizing that the demand for skins and clothes is limited - they threw in the most valuable thing, skill points for sale - constructed a money sink around it, the more you inject, the less you get out of it (a typical drug addiction principle btw) - and describing it in an DevPost as something completely different... Obvious... Instead they should find a way to let pay their experiments, like gun jack, dust, valkyrie and what else, for themselves, focusing on their core game, giving Eve subscribers what they payed for, a beautiful galaxy with more and more content, long awaited game fixes, not more, not less....
the problem with your argument, it's that CCP is not selling sps, players are; yes you may have a point when you say this will be "a new way to get more money out of the customers", but this depends on the price of those new extractors; atm CCP is getting money from caracter transfers anyway, and no one is complaining about it; until we see the prices of those new extractors, we can't really say if it's a money grab or not; so, how about agree that the idea sf sp trading is a good one, and wait to see the exact prices before we go to shoot jita monument? cose if those things will be really cheap, we would save ourself allot of time and energy |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
270
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 12:40:13 -
[4549] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:gascanu wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote:... Did you miss the listed problems with the progression system? Alternative suggestions are welcome; but implying that the crux of all of these problems is above "console games" and "quick fixes" seems pretty ironic. Those with the most money, for example, can "quick fix" through all of it.
.... Did you miss the fact that most people against this idea do not want a 'quick fix' game where everythging is available immediately? Let me guess, we are all wrong and don't even know what we like and enjoy because 'science' tells us so. yes, you are wrong! did it cross your mind even for a second that what is was "hard" for you then, it's 2x3x harder for a new player today? ofc not, but let's talk about good old times... when a new player could join a main alliance op in what, a month? how many corps had recruiting req like hac/recon/t3 lvl5? the main fleets where t1 bs, and no one was bitching at you for bringing a t1 fitted bs, and you knew ballance passes where like years between... and, about all that "hard" training, do you also forget to add how t3 ships for ex, where not even in game then, and we trained for them one at a time as they where released... now? a new player need to train hac/recon/logi/t3 like yesterday; and most of the time when they finish trainig for whatever flavor of the month ship alliances are using, boom! CCP drop the nerfhammer, and huh, you need to start training towards another ship, all over again... it's easy for someone like you to say "heh they don't need a quick fix" when you can switch from one doctrine to another in the same day, isn't it? is it that hard for you guys to comprehend that 10-12 years of training skill it's a major advantage for "vets" and at the same time a huge handicap for a new player? you already have huge advantages in sp/exp/isk/ stuff over a new player, is it that hard for you to accept that they need a bit of "support" till they reach a comfort zone of about 10/15/20 mil sps? and not free support, they will have to buy it from olders players with isk ! how risk adverse can you bee? Firstly you miss the point that you cannot tell another person what kind of game they like. The players here against the idea play Eve because it *isn't* a quick fix game. That is what they signed up to and why they stayed. Secondly it was never hard for me, I planned, I researched, I learnt by trial and error and all the while I was undocking and having fun in the game by actually playing it instead of worrying about this, that or the other. You talk about doctrines, fleets etc and seem to be only considering PvP content. I've been playing for around 3 years (so by no means a vet) and yet I've never been in a PvP fleet, never joined a big alliance and never ever missed either because I do everything else the game has to offer. You do not need 20 mil to fly frigs, destroyers or cruisers effectively. You will need significantly less to fly the pirate ships of any flavour effectively if you don't want to wait until tech II ships (or in many cases simply because they are better) I am not and have never been risk averse. I'm currently moving down to a WH for more fun and guess what? I am going to be flying either pirate ships (all tech I and easily trained into) or a Dominix (yes you guessed it, a tech I BS). Players do not need huge amounts of SP to go and have fun, they just need to play the game. P.S. those players wanting to go fly in whatever they can should try spectre fleets or whatever they are called. As I understand it they have no requirements on what you can fly. Same for Brave etc. But hey, what do I know? I'm to busy doing everything else that isn't PvP combat...
so you played a solo game in A MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game, for about 3 years, and give your example as a successful one? i'm really sry for you... first you say "you cannot tell another person what kind of game they like" and then you go and tell how others should play; if, by now, you cannot understand how a faster training until you reach a certain point it's beneficial for the game, there is no point in explaining it to you again |
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 12:48:28 -
[4550] - Quote
Players pay for Subscription, CCP gets the money,
Due to Subscription Players generate Skill Points.
To sell SP, its likely, players will buy more Gametime (double training for SP Alts)
To buy SP, players will buy AUR, CCP gets more money.
Where is the big difference? Where is the content? Where is more fun?
Outcome will be, Vets getting even richer, newbs still unexperienced get faster into bigger ships, still wanting the next step, borders are shifted, A big bluff, that's all... |
|
Oovarvu
Maas Industries
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 12:49:19 -
[4551] - Quote
just for the hell of it i thought i'd crunch the numbers.
taking a day old toon to 30m sp uses approx 75 skill packets.
assuming a 4 skill packets per plex price you'll need 19 plex which equates to around 265 sterling, i'm not sure what the yanks pay for plex but if it's a straight dollar sterling exchange rate swap then using 1.53 to 1 (as at 1.45pm 23/10/15) it would be around $400
all i can say is if thats what it's going to cost to buy in as a noob i feel extremely sorry for them.
notice the above calculations take NO ACCOUNT of the price of the extractors which will only bump things further.
|
Dave Stark
7649
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 12:53:11 -
[4552] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many skill points are considered 'enough' to be able to play the game properly?
it can't be more than 80m. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4055
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:00:30 -
[4553] - Quote
Vahligmarr wrote:Players pay for Subscription, CCP gets the money,
Due to Subscription Players generate Skill Points.
To sell SP, its likely, players will buy more Gametime (double training for SP Alts)
To buy SP, players will buy AUR, CCP gets more money.
Where is the big difference? Where is the content? Where is more fun?
Outcome will be, Vets getting even richer, newbs still unexperienced get faster into bigger ships, still wanting the next step, borders are shifted, A big bluff, that's all...
Well, and The Mittani will be the first character ever to train buy every skill to V for a weekend's worth of alliance income.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2288
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:01:00 -
[4554] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many skill points are considered 'enough' to be able to play the game properly? it can't be more than 80m.
Well according to some in this thread it's 400m |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2288
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:04:02 -
[4555] - Quote
Oovarvu wrote:just for the hell of it i thought i'd crunch the numbers.
taking a day old toon to 30m sp uses approx 75 skill packets.
assuming a 4 skill packets per plex price you'll need 19 plex which equates to around 265 sterling, i'm not sure what the yanks pay for plex but if it's a straight dollar sterling exchange rate swap then using 1.53 to 1 (as at 1.45pm 23/10/15) it would be around $400
all i can say is if thats what it's going to cost to buy in as a noob i feel extremely sorry for them.
notice the above calculations take NO ACCOUNT of the price of the extractors which will only bump things further.
So let's call it a round 25 billion.
I know people with personal wealth measured in trillions. So they could, if they wanted, wake up and go...you know what, I need a links alt. *poof* done, ready made, to order. and they'd not even notice the dip in the wallet.
Now that's PERSONAL wealth. Imagine something like PL or the CFC.... |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:04:37 -
[4556] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many skill points are considered 'enough' to be able to play the game properly? it can't be more than 80m. Well according to some in this thread it's 400m It's not enough for me. GIVE ME MOOOAR! |
Dave Stark
7649
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:09:26 -
[4557] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many skill points are considered 'enough' to be able to play the game properly? it can't be more than 80m. Well according to some in this thread it's 400m
well i'm sitting at somewhere in the 80s, i have perfect mining skills, perfect supports except the falloff skill (that's only at IV, all t2 weapons, all t2 subcaps except 2 of the 4 battleships...
i think the only nav skills i'm missing are the jump drive stuff and the mjd skills.
shuffle my mining SP to those skills and there's no way you can't have a character capable of jumping in to the new FOTM instantly for under 80m SP. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2288
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:13:09 -
[4558] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many skill points are considered 'enough' to be able to play the game properly? it can't be more than 80m. Well according to some in this thread it's 400m well i'm sitting at somewhere in the 80s, i have perfect mining skills, perfect supports except the falloff skill (that's only at IV, all t2 weapons, all t2 subcaps except 2 of the 4 battleships... i think the only nav skills i'm missing are the jump drive stuff and the mjd skills. shuffle my mining SP to those skills and there's no way you can't have a character capable of jumping in to the new FOTM instantly for under 80m SP.
But Dave, those mining skills tip the balance when I fight you in a frigate |
Oovarvu
Maas Industries
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:14:03 -
[4559] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Oovarvu wrote:just for the hell of it i thought i'd crunch the numbers.
taking a day old toon to 30m sp uses approx 75 skill packets.
assuming a 4 skill packets per plex price you'll need 19 plex which equates to around 265 sterling, i'm not sure what the yanks pay for plex but if it's a straight dollar sterling exchange rate swap then using 1.53 to 1 (as at 1.45pm 23/10/15) it would be around $400
all i can say is if thats what it's going to cost to buy in as a noob i feel extremely sorry for them.
notice the above calculations take NO ACCOUNT of the price of the extractors which will only bump things further.
So let's call it a round 25 billion. I know people with personal wealth measured in trillions. So they could, if they wanted, wake up and go...you know what, I need a links alt. *poof* done, ready made, to order. and they'd not even notice the dip in the wallet. Now that's PERSONAL wealth. Imagine something like PL or the CFC....
my point was the cost for the new players. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:15:19 -
[4560] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Dror wrote: At what point is it OK to stop giving free SP? 10M that can be completely re-oriented however? Then, their only experience with further queueing is completely uninteresting trains?
When to stop giving out SP would be down to CCP to decide. Ideally it would be based on stats only ccp have that show how long the average player takes to get "hooked". Additional i think all players should get free SP on their characters birthday. New players should get it after playing the game for a month past their trial account. This would: 1. Help new players become "useful" to their chosen corp, faster 2. Reward long term/loyal players 3. Help returning players experience new content quicker. Dror wrote: If you're implying they would get bored with a no-SP game, how can you support SP at all? That didn't make any sense. It's like saying "If you think apples are nutritious, how can you support the eating of apples?"... I already explained why I feel EVEs training system adds value. Because you obviously can't be saying that SP actually keeps fresh subs interested. That's like saying that the door makes me enjoy being in my house. Like, nah, it's warm and great.
So, if you're implying a no-SP game is boring, you're just implying the game is boring. SP is no feature worth advertising, nor is it ever advertised -- just like WoW doesn't advertise its leveling process. It develops an uninteresting playing field and removes the majority of options (and thus a huge demographic of characters) from actually improving the game.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
|
Shiva 113
Yggdrasill Corporation
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:17:09 -
[4561] - Quote
gascanu wrote:Jadon Wallace wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but this seems a lot like a pay-to-win feature? Oh I am ISK rich let's keep buying these skillpackets to up my SP with no time investment, break out the credit card anyone? I am very concerned if this was to become a reality, CCP going free to play next with micro transactions? Kind of takes away the value of SP this and I don't see it helping the new player experience as most newbies don't have that much ISK anyway, surely there are better ways to improve the NPE than this? "pay to win" like you call it it's already here: you can buy isk or you can buys some 20/40/50 mil sp character. all of it with a credit card via plex; what this system is going to change is lower the entry point from about > 10 plex to about 1 plex
The point is that this would make the game unbearably more pay2win.
But you fail to see the whole picture. Now you know that if you see a better char with better equipment, he is at a bare minimum a rich bastard who nevertheless spent some effort and proved tenacity to get where he is. With the proposed change, the bottom line would just be a rich bastard.
This change is in fact not in favor of new players. It would make the beginning much harder for an average new player who canGÇÖt afford to pay2win because he would be even more singled out than now.
Also GÇô and I canGÇÖt stress this enough GÇô why play a game where everything you can achieve through being good at it could be bought by any rich loser for money GÇô what would even be the point of beginning if that was the case?
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:17:15 -
[4562] - Quote
Oovarvu wrote:afkalt wrote:Oovarvu wrote:just for the hell of it i thought i'd crunch the numbers.
taking a day old toon to 30m sp uses approx 75 skill packets.
assuming a 4 skill packets per plex price you'll need 19 plex which equates to around 265 sterling, i'm not sure what the yanks pay for plex but if it's a straight dollar sterling exchange rate swap then using 1.53 to 1 (as at 1.45pm 23/10/15) it would be around $400
all i can say is if thats what it's going to cost to buy in as a noob i feel extremely sorry for them.
notice the above calculations take NO ACCOUNT of the price of the extractors which will only bump things further.
So let's call it a round 25 billion. I know people with personal wealth measured in trillions. So they could, if they wanted, wake up and go...you know what, I need a links alt. *poof* done, ready made, to order. and they'd not even notice the dip in the wallet. Now that's PERSONAL wealth. Imagine something like PL or the CFC.... my point was the cost for the new players. He just want to talk. Let him speak |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2288
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:17:49 -
[4563] - Quote
Oovarvu wrote:afkalt wrote:Oovarvu wrote:just for the hell of it i thought i'd crunch the numbers.
taking a day old toon to 30m sp uses approx 75 skill packets.
assuming a 4 skill packets per plex price you'll need 19 plex which equates to around 265 sterling, i'm not sure what the yanks pay for plex but if it's a straight dollar sterling exchange rate swap then using 1.53 to 1 (as at 1.45pm 23/10/15) it would be around $400
all i can say is if thats what it's going to cost to buy in as a noob i feel extremely sorry for them.
notice the above calculations take NO ACCOUNT of the price of the extractors which will only bump things further.
So let's call it a round 25 billion. I know people with personal wealth measured in trillions. So they could, if they wanted, wake up and go...you know what, I need a links alt. *poof* done, ready made, to order. and they'd not even notice the dip in the wallet. Now that's PERSONAL wealth. Imagine something like PL or the CFC.... my point was the cost for the new players.
I realise this, my point was that old hands can do hilarious things with it, newbeans either cannot afford it or will be pushed to PvE and statistically therefore, most likely to quit. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
96
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:19:49 -
[4564] - Quote
Dror
After doing some reading lastnight i will hold my hands up and apologise, In case of law you can quite credibly argue that the skillpoints are rewards. Look at them as a perk for your loyalty for a month.
Now we can look at this in a whole new light so as in most games these days, You dont own anything in reality lets call it a rental period, Just the same as going to Eurocar, You pay you drive it round for a month you return it - at the end youve paid but you dont have anything to show for its expense. Seeing as CCP own all the intellectual property rights to everything in game - including the character bazaar, what they are actually doing is allowing you to move there skillpoints from one account to another for a fixed fee.
So now we have established that CCP already sell skillpoints, albeit in a cumbersome form and for the most part not newbro friendly because of there Isk cost / skillpoint ratio gained.
So now we have also established that CCP are not magically whipping skillpoints out of thin air, why not make it newbro friendly and just sell direct to the customer for a set figure, mitigating all possible scams / exploitation from with in the game generating income and with a good marketing plan increase the sub base.
|
Oovarvu
Maas Industries
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:21:28 -
[4565] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Oovarvu wrote:afkalt wrote:Oovarvu wrote:just for the hell of it i thought i'd crunch the numbers.
taking a day old toon to 30m sp uses approx 75 skill packets.
assuming a 4 skill packets per plex price you'll need 19 plex which equates to around 265 sterling, i'm not sure what the yanks pay for plex but if it's a straight dollar sterling exchange rate swap then using 1.53 to 1 (as at 1.45pm 23/10/15) it would be around $400
all i can say is if thats what it's going to cost to buy in as a noob i feel extremely sorry for them.
notice the above calculations take NO ACCOUNT of the price of the extractors which will only bump things further.
So let's call it a round 25 billion. I know people with personal wealth measured in trillions. So they could, if they wanted, wake up and go...you know what, I need a links alt. *poof* done, ready made, to order. and they'd not even notice the dip in the wallet. Now that's PERSONAL wealth. Imagine something like PL or the CFC.... my point was the cost for the new players. ahhh, i see. i agree I realise this, my point was that old hands can do hilarious things with it, newbeans either cannot afford it or will be pushed to PvE and statistically therefore, most likely to quit.
|
Dave Stark
7649
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:22:13 -
[4566] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many skill points are considered 'enough' to be able to play the game properly? it can't be more than 80m. Well according to some in this thread it's 400m well i'm sitting at somewhere in the 80s, i have perfect mining skills, perfect supports except the falloff skill (that's only at IV, all t2 weapons, all t2 subcaps except 2 of the 4 battleships... i think the only nav skills i'm missing are the jump drive stuff and the mjd skills. shuffle my mining SP to those skills and there's no way you can't have a character capable of jumping in to the new FOTM instantly for under 80m SP. But Dave, those mining skills tip the balance when I fight you in a frigate
in my day, bantams had a mining bonus and we liked it that way! |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2288
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:27:26 -
[4567] - Quote
I remember those days :) |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:36:16 -
[4568] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Oovarvu wrote:afkalt wrote:Oovarvu wrote:just for the hell of it i thought i'd crunch the numbers.
taking a day old toon to 30m sp uses approx 75 skill packets.
assuming a 4 skill packets per plex price you'll need 19 plex which equates to around 265 sterling, i'm not sure what the yanks pay for plex but if it's a straight dollar sterling exchange rate swap then using 1.53 to 1 (as at 1.45pm 23/10/15) it would be around $400
all i can say is if thats what it's going to cost to buy in as a noob i feel extremely sorry for them.
notice the above calculations take NO ACCOUNT of the price of the extractors which will only bump things further.
So let's call it a round 25 billion. I know people with personal wealth measured in trillions. So they could, if they wanted, wake up and go...you know what, I need a links alt. *poof* done, ready made, to order. and they'd not even notice the dip in the wallet. Now that's PERSONAL wealth. Imagine something like PL or the CFC.... my point was the cost for the new players. I realise this, my point was that old hands can do hilarious things with it, newbeans either cannot afford it or will be pushed to PvE and statistically therefore, most likely to quit. We need to ripoff PVE, blow ships of newbies(according fanfest) and they will stay with us FOREVER... exept mortals players of course. |
Metal Hunter
The Explorers Club
74
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:44:14 -
[4569] - Quote
What will be farther? Extraction of SP from the taken capsule will be the following step? It is inflated -¦-â-¦-+-î, the capsule under a grid and the special module installed by the ship takes at the caught victim of SP. Maximum quantities of SP 500 000 for an injection. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:47:51 -
[4570] - Quote
Metal Hunter wrote:What will be farther? Extraction of SP from the taken capsule will be the following step? It is inflated -¦-â-¦-+-î, the capsule under a grid and the special module installed by the ship takes at the caught victim of SP. Maximum quantities of SP 500 000 for an injection. -Æ-+-¦-¦-¦, -¦-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-¦-¦, -+-¦-¦-¦-¦-¦-î, -ƒ-â-é-+-+. |
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1830
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:48:51 -
[4571] - Quote
gascanu wrote:...
so you played a solo game in A MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game, for about 3 years, and give your example as a successful one? i'm really sry for you... first you say "you cannot tell another person what kind of game they like" and then you go and tell how others should play; if, by now, you cannot understand how a faster training until you reach a certain point it's beneficial for the game, there is no point in explaining it to you again
Where did I say I've played the game solo? I feel sorry for your assumption gland being so overworked.
I did not tell anyone how to play the game, I stated how I have played the game and never once been hindered by SP. I also pointed out that there is much more to the game than just PvP combat, many areas of which will be heavily affected by people being able to just buy there way in.
Faster training is not beneficial to the game, it is beneficial to those who will be able to afford to use the proposed mechanism which will not be new players. It is to the detriment of everything else in game in my opinion. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1830
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:50:23 -
[4572] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many skill points are considered 'enough' to be able to play the game properly?
for those supporting this proposal the answer would be 'more than I currently have'... |
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2069
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:59:27 -
[4573] - Quote
Dror wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Dror wrote: At what point is it OK to stop giving free SP? 10M that can be completely re-oriented however? Then, their only experience with further queueing is completely uninteresting trains?
When to stop giving out SP would be down to CCP to decide. Ideally it would be based on stats only ccp have that show how long the average player takes to get "hooked". Additional i think all players should get free SP on their characters birthday. New players should get it after playing the game for a month past their trial account. This would: 1. Help new players become "useful" to their chosen corp, faster 2. Reward long term/loyal players 3. Help returning players experience new content quicker. Dror wrote: If you're implying they would get bored with a no-SP game, how can you support SP at all? That didn't make any sense. It's like saying "If you think apples are nutritious, how can you support the eating of apples?"... I already explained why I feel EVEs training system adds value. Because you obviously can't be saying that SP actually keeps fresh subs interested. That's like saying that the door makes me enjoy being in my house. Like, nah, it's warm and great. So, if you're implying a no-SP game is boring, you're just implying the game is boring. SP is no feature worth advertising, nor is it ever advertised -- just like WoW doesn't advertise its leveling process. It develops an uninteresting playing field and removes the majority of options (and thus a huge demographic of characters) from actually improving the game.
You don't half talk rubbish mate. As you didn't dispute anything i just said, i'll assume you agree with my proposal.
You coming on here arguing that SP should be removed from the game is stupid and wouldn't work in eve.. so i don't even know what your doing here.
To use your silly door analogy. If you live in a rough neighbourhood or a place with a cold environment - you will need to do so research and select the correct do for the job. However, you are not forced to do this but if you are too lazy to invest time in selecting the right option, you are either going to get burgled or the cold will get in... This is how the skill selection works in eve.
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 14:06:00 -
[4574] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:And I disgree with that view as we are all motivated by different things. You cannot whitewash over the arguments of everyone here who is aganist this proposal by telling us that we all think the same and have the same motivations. That is clearly untrue. That's you making a claim, which should be supported with more than anecdote. CCP says that they'd like to [objectively] switch over to an intrinsic reward system, which is [objectively] more motivating, creativity-inducing, etc. That's all included in the NPE videos.
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I already pointed out that Halo etc are simplified versions of the gating system we have in EvE so. Of course the skill ssytem is progression, you guide your character by making choices and open up other options in game available to you. Of course you may think this is only important to those of us who are more RP minded but many disagree and also to discount that area of the player base is stupid. Limiting progression unfairly (nothing to do with gameplay and actual skillfulness, for example) is helpful? Please, then, show us a study that says having an unequal opportunity to do well increases, say, sub loyalty?
Oh, this study says it's actually the opposite:
Quote:One strategy found that giving players more control and ownership of their character increased loyalty [to the game]. The second strategy showed that gamers who played cooperatively and worked with other gamers in "guilds" built loyalty and social identity.
To build a player's feeling of ownership towards its character, game makers should provide equal opportunities for any character to win a battle. So, if you're done strawman'ing, maybe you'd like to admit that you have nothing to say about the objective definitions of motivation. Also, progression in EVE is micro-transaction based. SP, as is, only comes through a sub. It cheapens the experience and provides power to those who can pay (through PLEX) over those who can't -- even if that advantage is just "more fun"..
Do you make sure the drive to work is unnecessarily ludicrous so that work seems more fulfilling?[/quote]
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Fun comes from the individual, it comes from what they enjoy in game and neither you or any other person can define what any individual will find fun. There are basics, and to try to refute that is to try to refute established theories. You're shallowly implying that your bit of anecdote is more authoritative than research. The information is everywhere, and (as stated) even CCP discusses it.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 14:21:22 -
[4575] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Faster training is not beneficial to the game, it is beneficial to those who will be able to afford to use the proposed mechanism which will not be new players.
I have no words for you. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1836
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 14:30:31 -
[4576] - Quote
Dror wrote: That's you making a claim, which should be supported with more than anecdote. CCP says that they'd like to [objectively] switch over to an intrinsic reward system, which is [objectively] more motivating, creativity-inducing, etc. That's all included in the NPE videos.
CCP states unequiviocally that SP are an intrinsic and important part of the game. No amount of arguing from you changes that simple fact.
Dror wrote: Limiting progression unfairly (nothing to do with gameplay and actual skillfulness, for example) is helpful? Please, then, show us a study that says having an unequal opportunity to do well increases, say, sub loyalty?
Please list games where there is not some kind of gating and/or progression mechanism involved in the design. Then list those that do.
Quote:One strategy found that giving players more control and ownership of their character increased loyalty [to the game]. The second strategy showed that gamers who played cooperatively and worked with other gamers in "guilds" built loyalty and social identity.
To build a player's feeling of ownership towards its character, game makers should provide equal opportunities for any character to win a battle.
Lets examine this in the case of SP. Players in EvE have complete control over the direction their chracter trains in and this continues whther you are logged in or not. You can change that direction at any time. During this time an Eve player tends to become invested in that character due to the effort required to create the specific skillset chosen. It is unique to that character and formed purely buy the player choices made.
Within Eve every player can and eventually will train up exactly the same level of skills in any given hull or task as any other player. This means that two players following a training plan that has them both flying assault frigates with tech II mods/guns will be on an exactly even playing field even if onw player has 20 mil total SP and the other player has 200 mil total SP. This of course ignores the fact that PvP combat in EvE is entirely based around creating unequal opportunities to win a battle via ship selection, mod selection and friend selection.
All of that would fit very very well with the quote you provided.
You also keep mentioning fun, please do give us a definitive description of fun. One that covers everyones activities in game. Something we can really agree on so that we have a true measure of fun.
Do you make sure the drive to work is unnecessarily ludicrous so that work seems more fulfilling?[/quote]
No, I plan ahead and also have alternative routes to make sure I achieve my goal
Dror wrote:... The information is everywhere, and (as stated) even CCP discusses it.
Interesting how you quote CCP discussion here yet completely ignore the statement made by CCP Rise about the importance of SP and skills in the game. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1836
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 14:31:43 -
[4577] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Faster training is not beneficial to the game, it is beneficial to those who will be able to afford to use the proposed mechanism which will not be new players.
I have no words for you.
Handy, means I don't have to listen to them then... |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4209
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 14:34:45 -
[4578] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many skill points are considered 'enough' to be able to play the game properly? for those supporting this proposal the answer would be 'more than I currently have'... or 'less than I currently have, as I am looking forward to cashing in on unnecessary SP'
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dave Stark
7649
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 14:37:36 -
[4579] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many skill points are considered 'enough' to be able to play the game properly? for those supporting this proposal the answer would be 'more than I currently have'... or 'less than I currently have, as I am looking forward to cashing in on unnecessary SP'
or "that entirely depends upon what i want to do".
1.5m is more than enough for PI, but is **** all for a capital pilot. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 14:37:44 -
[4580] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:General Lootit wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Faster training is not beneficial to the game, it is beneficial to those who will be able to afford to use the proposed mechanism which will not be new players.
I have no words for you. Handy, means I don't have to listen to them then... I'm apologize for my reply but I'm quite tired from repeating myselfe. |
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1837
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 14:42:49 -
[4581] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:General Lootit wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Faster training is not beneficial to the game, it is beneficial to those who will be able to afford to use the proposed mechanism which will not be new players.
I have no words for you. Handy, means I don't have to listen to them then... I'm apologize for my reply but I'm quite tired from repeating myselfe.
No apology required, I'm not so insensitive that I can't take banter :D
I think that is part of the problem in the thread though. We are all now arguing around the same points with the same rebuttals. It now needs some feedback from CCP as to their view and what they plan to do. This was supposed to be about exploring the idea and I think most points have probably been covered by now. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1837
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 14:44:53 -
[4582] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many skill points are considered 'enough' to be able to play the game properly? for those supporting this proposal the answer would be 'more than I currently have'... or 'less than I currently have, as I am looking forward to cashing in on unnecessary SP'
That's a point, those PvP combat only pilots who can fly all the ships they already want to can with this idea just keep selling the additional SP from their subscription time to fund their very narrow area of gameplay. Wouldn't be such a bad thing if it didn't come from seriously messing with one of the core areas of the game. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4209
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 14:52:32 -
[4583] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many skill points are considered 'enough' to be able to play the game properly? for those supporting this proposal the answer would be 'more than I currently have'... or 'less than I currently have, as I am looking forward to cashing in on unnecessary SP' That's a point, those PvP combat only pilots who can fly all the ships they already want to can with this idea just keep selling the additional SP from their subscription time to fund their very narrow area of gameplay. Wouldn't be such a bad thing if it didn't come from seriously messing with one of the core areas of the game. Consider it's by no means and 'all or nothing' not a 'now or never' choice. The proposed system will be very flexible.
For example, I have 3 accounts:
. A main, PVP focused, which probably I'd keep skilling up normally . A first alt account focused on industry and trading. On this account, I have no major use for additional SP, the 3 chars work perfectly for what I want to do with them. I could easily choose to sell all of this account's monthly SP to make it pay for itself . A second alt account with a cap pilot, that I'll certainly skill up. I could also choose to use the first alt account's SP to train faster (main char of this account is around 30Mil SP)
I see this proposal simply as a way to allow SP-rich players trade with SP-poor players, for everyone's benefit (the former make some ISK, the latter get some SP).
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 14:54:15 -
[4584] - Quote
Replies emboldened:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote: That's you making a claim, which should be supported with more than anecdote. CCP says that they'd like to [objectively] switch over to an intrinsic reward system, which is [objectively] more motivating, creativity-inducing, etc. That's all included in the NPE videos.
CCP states unequiviocally that SP are an intrinsic and important part of the game. No amount of arguing from you changes that simple fact. Appeal to authority.Dror wrote: Limiting progression unfairly (nothing to do with gameplay and actual skillfulness, for example) is helpful? Please, then, show us a study that says having an unequal opportunity to do well increases, say, sub loyalty?
Please list games where there is not some kind of gating and/or progression mechanism involved in the design. Then list those that do. Appeal to tradition. For the sake of furthering the conversation, here.Quote:One strategy found that giving players more control and ownership of their character increased loyalty [to the game]. The second strategy showed that gamers who played cooperatively and worked with other gamers in "guilds" built loyalty and social identity.
To build a player's feeling of ownership towards its character, game makers should provide equal opportunities for any character to win a battle. Lets examine this in the case of SP. Players in EvE have complete control over the direction their chracter trains in and this continues whther you are logged in or not. You can change that direction at any time. During this time an Eve player tends to become invested in that character due to the effort required to create the specific skillset chosen. It is unique to that character and formed purely buy the player choices made. If SP is so interesting for character development, why is fresh sub retention supposedly so low? Gameplay (depth, accessibility, progression, diversity..) is principal. It's sort of what the game is being judged over..Within Eve every player can and eventually will train up exactly the same level of skills in any given hull or task as any other player. This means that two players following a training plan that has them both flying assault frigates with tech II mods/guns will be on an exactly even playing field even if onw player has 20 mil total SP and the other player has 200 mil total SP. This of course ignores the fact that PvP combat in EvE is entirely based around creating unequal opportunities to win a battle via ship selection, mod selection and friend selection. ..Which should be ignored. Most engagements with equal SP have an equal opportunity through planning, strategy, logistics, and plenty of other mechanics. Ordinarily, engaging a fleet is purely by choice. If you're arguing that newbies have equal opportunity -- well, you're not. So, you're submitting to the research that SP is at least a bit unhelpful?All of that would fit very very well with the quote you provided. You also keep mentioning fun, please do give us a definitive description of fun. One that covers everyones activities in game. Something we can really agree on so that we have a true measure of fun. -- Dror wrote:" Do you make sure the drive to work is unnecessarily ludicrous so that work seems more fulfilling?" --No, I plan ahead and also have alternative routes to make sure I achieve my goal SP basically takes away the car (and technically the jobs) away from fresh characters and expects them to both have livelihood and be interested in it. "The game relies on very non-PvP methods of making ISK (for countering exploitation), so the idea that PvP should somehow sustain gameplay interest is unfeasible. Thus, limiting the other playstyles (as a design philosophy) is completely counter-productive." That includes industry. SP makes the game have "reduced content", and if WoW or SWG are any tell, "lack of content" is the most obvious and common reason for unsubs.Dror wrote:... The information is everywhere, and (as stated) even CCP discusses it. Interesting how you quote CCP discussion here yet completely ignore the statement made by CCP Rise about the importance of SP and skills in the game. I'm pretty sure an appeal to science is no logical fallacy. Maybe if it didn't seem like that statement was just damage control on how awful SP can seem for new players.. or even as a comforting sentiment to veterans, it would seem more relevant.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1842
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 14:56:13 -
[4585] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:...Consider it's by no means and 'all or nothing' not a 'now or never' choice. The proposed system will be very flexible.
For example, I have 3 accounts:
. A main, PVP focused, which probably I'd keep skilling up normally . A first alt account focused on industry and trading. On this account, I have no major use for additional SP, the 3 chars work perfectly for what I want to do with them. I could easily choose to sell all of this account's monthly SP to make it pay for itself . A second alt account with a cap pilot, that I'll certainly skill up. I could also choose to use the first alt account's SP to train faster (main char of this account is around 30Mil SP)
I see this proposal simply as a way to allow SP-rich players trade with SP-poor players, for everyone's benefit (the former make some ISK, the latter get some SP).
I can see how that works when you are using your SP among your own existing accounts but as soon as something becomes a commodity it will be gamed by those in the market with the power to do so. This will not benefit new players unless having them pay lots of extra cash to play (as they will feel they have to if they can afford it) or having them grind for isk instead is beneficial to them. I don't believe it is. |
Raz Xym
Speaker for the Dead Get Off My Lawn
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 14:56:35 -
[4586] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many skill points are considered 'enough' to be able to play the game properly? for those supporting this proposal the answer would be 'more than I currently have'...
I support this proposal, and I expect to never use it. Sure there are always things to train, but after a while, for me, it just becomes where do I want that final 2%. And since I am not a huge min/max guy, that last 2% is not all that important to me.
Since we have always been able to buy skill points (via character bazaar) I am not sure of the issue. It really must be that it will be more apparent that you can buy skill points, where before it was "hidden" under a forum thread?
I know many people will not even think about the game, because they feel there is no way to catch up to the vets. This might help change their mind? Even though many corps will find a spot for most any pilot, many seem to feel they are not contributing unless they can fly a certain ship.
Is it all sunshine and lolipops? Nope. There are some real issues. I do agree with many it sort of diminishes the dedication many vets have had. Many have trained for years, carefully mapping attributes, sticking to these maps until one's ready to pull the rest of their hair out. But again, one could just buy a character from the bazaar and bypass all this.
I just hope we attract more permanent players. |
TomParad0x
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:00:42 -
[4587] - Quote
Doubting replying to a 200 page thread will be of much benefit, but here it is.
I've played since 2004, and I honestly don't know how I feel about this. On one hand, to me personally I feel like I would like this, I could trash some stupid stuff I trained on this character (wasted SP) and actually do something with it.
But on the level of the whole game I'm honestly not sure how I feel. The intent of this is not to help new players "catch up", because new players would either have to buy the SP via PLEX, or somehow make the isk these will cost to buy in game. I don't really feel like the character bazaar needs help.
I don't think this would ruin the game, as others have said we can already buy SP. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:09:00 -
[4588] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:You also keep mentioning fun, please do give us a definitive description of fun. One that covers everyones activities in game. Something we can really agree on so that we have a true measure of fun. OK.
Dror wrote:There are plenty of definitions of fun through motivation. If you won't look that up, none of it comes from SP as a system -- but playing well, being valuable as a character, and exploring. Fitting a frigate effectively is more fun than t1 nonsense-fittings because of SP. Getting plenty of content from no arbitrary limitations (and thus more newbie effectiveness) is fun for all, from the newbies and veterans learning and instructing, through the increased strategy from increased, actual skill.
Fun is..
Dror wrote:A fair playing field that doesn't require microtransactions to progress.
Maybe a decent counter-question would be why games like MMOs are played over games like chess or Tetris -- depth, yeah? So why artificially limit that depth with a pay wall -- how is that helpful for sub retention or the level of strategy in the game? Starter corps can't infiltrate sov with frigates. So, a decent hypothesis is that if something limits depth and progression, it can't also benefit it, yeah? If a mechanic worsens a game, it can't really embetter it?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
96
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:10:43 -
[4589] - Quote
Dror wrote:Limiting progression unfairly (nothing to do with gameplay and actual skillfulness, for example) is helpful? Please, then, show us a study that says having an unequal opportunity to do well increases, say, sub loyalty?
Oh, this study says it's actually the opposite:
If your basing your logic on pure empirical analysis of the data in the study you quote here then its flawed as it doesnt list the games involved - it mixes free 2 play and sub based games as stated in the article.
Seeing as it refers to "Guilds" we take it that one could be WoW and another Guild wars 2, You chose to play the sandbox design and all it means. If you then want to bring it down to there levels of playstyles instanced - Dungeons - Raids where you can match players abilities on there levels to make it equal then where is the sandbox. Are you pertaining to say for instance that C1 - 2-5 mill skillpoints C-2 5 - 10 mill skillpoints. These games rewards are also based on player level all the way through to endgame content, You now asking for that ilvl680 weapon / armour to be equated to ships, there you go you completed AE 1-5 Have a raven.
PvP is also by level 10/19 20/29 30/39 So you want to alter the standard of this game based on matched levels of others,These games are equal by a level design could you see a level 10 is scratching a level 100. I refer again this is a sandbox.
They get afforded more opportunities, we can all mine, create/craft explore/wander in circles join guilds/corps from the moment you enter the games.
Your 5% retention giving 25% - 95% profit is also skewed at best as i say, your study mixes free2play with a sub base. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4210
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:12:03 -
[4590] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:...Consider it's by no means and 'all or nothing' not a 'now or never' choice. The proposed system will be very flexible.
For example, I have 3 accounts:
. A main, PVP focused, which probably I'd keep skilling up normally . A first alt account focused on industry and trading. On this account, I have no major use for additional SP, the 3 chars work perfectly for what I want to do with them. I could easily choose to sell all of this account's monthly SP to make it pay for itself . A second alt account with a cap pilot, that I'll certainly skill up. I could also choose to use the first alt account's SP to train faster (main char of this account is around 30Mil SP)
I see this proposal simply as a way to allow SP-rich players trade with SP-poor players, for everyone's benefit (the former make some ISK, the latter get some SP). I can see how that works when you are using your SP among your own existing accounts but as soon as something becomes a commodity it will be gamed by those in the market with the power to do so. This will not benefit new players unless having them pay lots of extra cash to play (as they will feel they have to if they can afford it) or having them grind for isk instead is beneficial to them. I don't believe it is. I don't think it will be easily gamed.
As was discussed a couple of times ITT, it's extremely easy for anybody to have an alt to farm SP and sell it for PLEX-equivalent price + extractor. If anybody tries to drive the price higher than that, anybody else can make free ISK just by creating an SP-farming alt.
In other words, there will be a very strong downward pressure on prices higher than 1/4 PLEX + exctractor for a 500k SP pack.
Regarding new players, it would be an additional option available to them, and an additional goal to motivate them to play. Considering we all got by just fine without it, I'd say they'll be at least a tiny little bit better off if this change kicks in?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:15:39 -
[4591] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Limiting progression unfairly (nothing to do with gameplay and actual skillfulness, for example) is helpful? Please, then, show us a study that says having an unequal opportunity to do well increases, say, sub loyalty?
Oh, this study says it's actually the opposite: If your basing your logic on pure empirical analysis of the data in the study you quote here then its flawed as it doesnt list the games involved - it mixes free 2 play and sub based games as stated in the article. Seeing as it refers to "Guilds" we take it that one could be WoW and another Guild wars 2, You chose to play the sandbox design and all it means. If you then want to bring it down to there levels of playstyles instanced - Dungeons - Raids where you can match players abilities on there levels to make it equal then where is the sandbox. Are you pertaining to say for instance that C1 - 2-5 mill skillpoints C-2 5 - 10 mill skillpoints. These games rewards are also based on player level all the way through to endgame content, You now asking for that ilvl680 weapon / armour to be equated to ships, there you go you completed AE 1-5 Have a raven. PvP is also by level 10/19 20/29 30/39 So you want to alter the standard of this game based on matched levels of others,These games are equal by a level design could you see a level 10 is scratching a level 100. I refer again this is a sandbox. They get afforded more opportunities, we can all mine, create/craft explore/wander in circles join guilds/corps from the moment you enter the games. Your 5% retention giving 25% - 95% profit is also skewed at best as i say, your study mixes free2play with a sub base. The study is actually about a single MMORPG, so would you like to restate this?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
TomParad0x
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:19:43 -
[4592] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:...Consider it's by no means and 'all or nothing' not a 'now or never' choice. The proposed system will be very flexible.
For example, I have 3 accounts:
. A main, PVP focused, which probably I'd keep skilling up normally . A first alt account focused on industry and trading. On this account, I have no major use for additional SP, the 3 chars work perfectly for what I want to do with them. I could easily choose to sell all of this account's monthly SP to make it pay for itself . A second alt account with a cap pilot, that I'll certainly skill up. I could also choose to use the first alt account's SP to train faster (main char of this account is around 30Mil SP)
I see this proposal simply as a way to allow SP-rich players trade with SP-poor players, for everyone's benefit (the former make some ISK, the latter get some SP). I can see how that works when you are using your SP among your own existing accounts but as soon as something becomes a commodity it will be gamed by those in the market with the power to do so. This will not benefit new players unless having them pay lots of extra cash to play (as they will feel they have to if they can afford it) or having them grind for isk instead is beneficial to them. I don't believe it is. I don't think it will be easily gamed. As was discussed a couple of times ITT, it's extremely easy for anybody to have an alt to farm SP and sell it for PLEX-equivalent price + extractor. If anybody tries to drive the price higher than that, anybody else can make free ISK just by creating an SP-farming alt. In other words, there will be a very strong downward pressure on prices higher than 1/4 PLEX + exctractor for a 500k SP pack. Regarding new players, it would be an additional option available to them, and an additional goal to motivate them to play. Considering we all got by just fine without it, I'd say they'll be at least a tiny little bit better off if this change kicks in?
How much do you think these packets would actually go for, for a 500k packet? I can't see it being very newbie friendly unless they're cheap.
1) If they're too cheap, then they will be easy for long-time players to buy in bulk, allowing them to simply bypass the diminishing returns with a sort of brute-force. 2) If they're too expensive, they won't benefit new players at all. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1847
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:19:49 -
[4593] - Quote
Dror wrote:... The study is actually about a single MMORPG, so would you like to restate this?
So you are using a study based on one game to argue that all games should work in a certain way?
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
97
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:21:23 -
[4594] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Limiting progression unfairly (nothing to do with gameplay and actual skillfulness, for example) is helpful? Please, then, show us a study that says having an unequal opportunity to do well increases, say, sub loyalty?
Oh, this study says it's actually the opposite: If your basing your logic on pure empirical analysis of the data in the study you quote here then its flawed as it doesnt list the games involved - it mixes free 2 play and sub based games as stated in the article. Seeing as it refers to "Guilds" we take it that one could be WoW and another Guild wars 2, You chose to play the sandbox design and all it means. If you then want to bring it down to there levels of playstyles instanced - Dungeons - Raids where you can match players abilities on there levels to make it equal then where is the sandbox. Are you pertaining to say for instance that C1 - 2-5 mill skillpoints C-2 5 - 10 mill skillpoints. These games rewards are also based on player level all the way through to endgame content, You now asking for that ilvl680 weapon / armour to be equated to ships, there you go you completed AE 1-5 Have a raven. PvP is also by level 10/19 20/29 30/39 So you want to alter the standard of this game based on matched levels of others,These games are equal by a level design could you see a level 10 is scratching a level 100. I refer again this is a sandbox. They get afforded more opportunities, we can all mine, create/craft explore/wander in circles join guilds/corps from the moment you enter the games. Your 5% retention giving 25% - 95% profit is also skewed at best as i say, your study mixes free2play with a sub base. The study is actually about a single MMORPG, so would you like to restate this?
Give me the link to this information on what game, not you just saying what game |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1847
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:23:43 -
[4595] - Quote
TomParad0x wrote:...
How much do you think these packets would actually go for, for a 500k packet?
They'll go for whatever people can sell them for, and that means someone will find a way to control and use this for their own gain.
The argument that everyone can create an SP farming alt doesn't work for me. Firstly it advocates even more alts, and worse still alts that will never even undock, just sit there in +5's training the same set of low multiplier skills over and over with a perfect remap to be milked of SP. Horrible idea.
Secondly any new player won't know about this or how to do this in the first place, and then when they find out wil think 'I have to have a second character to feed SP to my first???'
That surely makes for an even worse NPE. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:29:13 -
[4596] - Quote
TomParad0x wrote:Doubting replying to a 200 page thread will be of much benefit, but here it is.
I've played since 2004, and I honestly don't know how I feel about this. On one hand, to me personally I feel like I would like this, I could trash some stupid stuff I trained on this character (wasted SP) and actually do something with it.
But on the level of the whole game I'm honestly not sure how I feel. The intent of this is not to help new players "catch up", because new players would either have to buy the SP via PLEX, or somehow make the isk these will cost to buy in game. I don't really feel like the character bazaar needs help.
I don't think this would ruin the game, as others have said we can already buy SP. Main issue of bazaar (by CCPs version) is EULA violation. Also it's misleading new players. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4210
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:36:48 -
[4597] - Quote
TomParad0x wrote:How much do you think these packets would actually go for, for a 500k packet? I can't see it being very newbie friendly unless they're cheap. Assuming PLEX stays at 1.2 Bil, I'd bet on 300 Mil isk a packet.
It will depend on many factors, first and foremost how much CCP will charge for extractors. IMO, it would be pointless on their side to charge more than 50M ISK or so, but no-one knows at the moment.
Obviously PLEX may rise. That would make a difference in ISK price, but not in cash price (would remain around 1/4 PLEX, i.e. 5$).
Not sure if that's newbie-friendly or not. It's certainly possible for a new player to make ISK: I made over a bil in Faction Warfare in my 2nd month playing, all the while PVP-ing (not farming).
Also, I don't believe this has to be newbie-friendly, same as PLEX isn't newbie-friendly. Both are RL wallet-friendly and that's fine for me. The beauty of EVE is that neither ISK nor SP alone can make you a good player.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
432
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:37:21 -
[4598] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote: I see this proposal simply as a way to allow SP-rich players trade with SP-poor players, for everyone's benefit (the former make some ISK, the latter get some SP).
Yes, it will do that.
But it will also send a message to new players that they have to spend $ to buy PLEX, sell those ingame for ISK to buy SP if they don't want to get left behind.
Some argue that players already feel the need to buy PLEX to get isk. That's not wrong. But realistically, how many PLEX do you need to finance t1 fit t1 frigs ?
Yes, I understand that it's possible now to buy a skilled character and fill its wallet with $ fuelled PLEX selling. This behaviour is limited in scope. If you open it up to everyone, it becomes part of the game. EvE originally set out to abolish the grind for XP, by making SP training passive. The ISK grinding exists, but is proportional to your activity.
The proposed system adds: - new passive income for vets only (despite CCP having shown in the past that they don't favour passive income) - SP grinding (through the possibility to convert ISK to SP)
How is that good for new players ?
It's not so much about being outright against the proposal, but a sincere feeling that it would need some rethinking.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1850
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:39:29 -
[4599] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:... Main issue of bazaar (by CCPs version) is EULA violation. Also it's misleading new players.
It does make me cringe a bit when people say 'you can buy SP now' and use a necessary evil intended purely to stop RMT to back up why we should be allowed to buy unallocated SP in game. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:44:45 -
[4600] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote:... The study is actually about a single MMORPG, so would you like to restate this? So you are using a study based on one game to argue that all games should work in a certain way? "Games should" is provided by the study. You can't just reduce the whole conversation to "but this surely can't apply to all games".
Levi Belvar wrote:Give me the link to this information on what game, not you just saying what game Here.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
|
Alexander Tekitsu
State War Academy Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:45:34 -
[4601] - Quote
Runaway thread, Sorry if any of this has been covered/proposed in the past couple hundred pages ( obviously a hot topic ) which I honestly can't think of reading.
My thoughts on the subject. Should SP be purchasable? why not, I've purchased a character in the past because I needed another mining character and it was faster than training one up, being able to create a new character and dump in the skills would have meant the same to me because I never consider buying characters with bad names.
SP packet diminishing returns. This I disagree with, the time to train those sp was paid for. Before people think I'm saying you would be able to then buy enough to train a titan pilot in 1 day if you can afford it IRL. I also don't agree that it should just dump unallocated SP into your character. I mentioned in another thread that I like the Booster approach. now take the numbers here of a 500k SP packet, allow it to be injected like a booster. The rate that it increases your training is relative to the amount of SP you have.
Packet has a base "boost" rate across the board of +40 to all attributes. Using diminishing returns calculated at the time on consuming to modify these attributes determines how long it will run for. A fictitious set of numbers below.
At 500k SP it would run flat out +40 until it has surrendered the 500k SP ( 138.9 hours or 5.8 Days ) At 5,000k SP it would run at +30 until it has surrendered the 500k SP ( 185.2 hours or 7.7 Days) At 50,000k SP it would run at +4 until it has surrendered the 500k SP ( 1388.9 hours or 58 Days )
So the more SP you have, the slower the consumption rate and 0 instant gratification.
Since you can't run 2 at the same time, this makes them more beneficial to newer players as an older player would not be benefited by buying 10 at a time ( since that would take about 2 years to run through ) |
Jadon Wallace
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:47:11 -
[4602] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:General Lootit wrote:... Main issue of bazaar (by CCPs version) is EULA violation. Also it's misleading new players. It does make me cringe a bit when people say 'you can buy SP now' and use a necessary evil intended purely to stop RMT to back up why we should be allowed to buy unallocated SP in game.
I concur. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4210
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:51:15 -
[4603] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote: I see this proposal simply as a way to allow SP-rich players trade with SP-poor players, for everyone's benefit (the former make some ISK, the latter get some SP).
Yes, it will do that. But it will also send a message to new players that they have to spend $ to buy PLEX, sell those ingame for ISK to buy SP if they don't want to get left behind. Both CCP and any of us smart EVE players that happen to talk to newbies should worry less about imagined :messages: that game mechanics :send: and focus on taking these dudes under our wings and showing them how this damn game really works.
Not against you, Jill, but I'm sick and tired of people saying for example 'people come from other MMOs and think that EVE is grind/character/gear based just like other MMOs'.
WTF? 5 minutes of googling will show anyone with half a brain that EVE is different. If newbies don't have even a half a brain, they will never survive in EVE anyway. If they do, they'll ask and hopefully find people that will answer.
Just browse NCQ&A forums for good, useful, consistent answers that explain to anyone that bothers asking what EVE is and how SP and ISK matter much much less than investing time to learn this game and making friends to fly with.
A newbro that has the passion and attitude to thrive in EVE will quickly understand to use SP packets as an option, if/when useful only. Just as most of them understand it's useless to use PLEX to buy officer mods for your solo battleship just to end up as an ALOD.
A newbro that doesn't even try to understand EVE basics doesn't really belong here and would quit anyway.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
468
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:52:30 -
[4604] - Quote
gascanu wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote:... Did you miss the listed problems with the progression system? Alternative suggestions are welcome; but implying that the crux of all of these problems is above "console games" and "quick fixes" seems pretty ironic. Those with the most money, for example, can "quick fix" through all of it.
.... Did you miss the fact that most people against this idea do not want a 'quick fix' game where everythging is available immediately? Let me guess, we are all wrong and don't even know what we like and enjoy because 'science' tells us so. yes, you are wrong! did it cross your mind even for a second that what is was "hard" for you then, it's 2x3x harder for a new player today? ofc not, but let's talk about good old times... when a new player could join a main alliance op in what, a month? how many corps had recruiting req like hac/recon/t3 lvl5? the main fleets where t1 bs, and no one was bitching at you for bringing a t1 fitted bs, and you knew ballance passes where like years between... and, about all that "hard" training, do you also forget to add how t3 ships for ex, where not even in game then, and we trained for them one at a time as they where released... now? a new player need to train hac/recon/logi/t3 like yesterday; and most of the time when they finish trainig for whatever flavor of the month ship alliances are using, boom! CCP drop the nerfhammer, and huh, you need to start training towards another ship, all over again... it's easy for someone like you to say "heh they don't need a quick fix" when you can switch from one doctrine to another in the same day, isn't it? is it that hard for you guys to comprehend that 10-12 years of training skill it's a major advantage for "vets" and at the same time a huge handicap for a new player? you already have huge advantages in sp/exp/isk/ stuff over a new player, is it that hard for you to accept that they need a bit of "support" till they reach a comfort zone of about 10/15/20 mil sps? and not free support, they will have to buy it from olders players with isk ! how risk adverse can you bee?
Uhhh.. Do you mean like we used to get our **** pushes in by old pirates who were flying all meta 4 modules in battleships while we were struggling to survive in low sec in cruiser/BCs? Or like elite PvP alliances like BOB who only flew top notch T2 ships and were defeated by a bunch of newbie Goonies?
You say that is if the entire eve population started in 2003 and new players are just coming in to compete with them. People quit and join all the time. According to last starts i saw average eve player is 1.5 years old. If you're not having fun in your corp because they are a bunch of stuck up elitists join another corp. **** those guys.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
98
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:53:17 -
[4605] - Quote
Dror wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote:... The study is actually about a single MMORPG, so would you like to restate this? So you are using a study based on one game to argue that all games should work in a certain way? "Games should" is provided by the study. You can't just reduce the whole conversation to "but this surely can't apply to all games". Levi Belvar wrote:Give me the link to this information on what game, not you just saying what game Here.
All that analysis you've been preaching on about is WoW.
You most definatly went down the wrong route Dror, Even the world its self is instanced. Its not a global ecomony and as i already stated everything in game is Based on a level design, Dungeons / raids / PvP.
Its a terrible comparison, Blizzard has even taken the token idea from CCP / plex
Oh and the loving your characters comes from the fact you cant sell them. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1852
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:58:31 -
[4606] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:....
All that analysis you've been preaching on about is WoW.
You most definatly went down the wrong route Dror, Even the world its self is instanced. Its not a global ecomony and as i already stated everything in game is Based on a level design, Dungeons / raids / PvP.
Its a terrible comparison, Blizzard has even taken the token idea from CCP / plex
Oh and the loving your characters comes from the fact you cant sell them.
Oh dear... |
Soldarius
Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore
1397
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:00:49 -
[4607] - Quote
TomParad0x wrote:How much do you think these packets would actually go for, for a 500k packet? I can't see it being very newbie friendly unless they're cheap.
1) If they're too cheap, then they will be easy for long-time players to buy in bulk, allowing them to simply bypass the diminishing returns with a sort of brute-force. 2) If they're too expensive, they won't benefit new players at all.
Considering only PLEX prices and a conservative SP gain per minute, 617isk/SP is what I came up with, or 308.5M isk for 500k SP.
You gain SP at the rate of (primary skill + secondary skill / 2) per minute you are training a skill in that category. The max you can get is 32 and 26 in those categories with +5 implants. So 32+13 = 45SP/min. There are 43200 minutes in a month (60min x 24hrs x 30days). 43200 x 45 = 1944000SP/mo.
A PLEX is a month of game time. So 1.2B isk / 1944000 = 617.28 isk / SP.
617.28 * 500k = 308641975.31 isk for 500k SP. This does not include any transaction fees, the cost of implants, or extractors. Extractors will ofc be a per transaction cost. Implants are a one-time cost that can be spread across the life-time of the account.
At this point, the cost of extractors is really all we don't know.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
433
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:02:21 -
[4608] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Not sure if that's newbie-friendly or not. It's certainly possible for a new player to make ISK: I made over a bil in Faction Warfare in my 2nd month playing, all the while PVP-ing (not farming).
Also, I don't believe this has to be newbie-friendly, same as PLEX isn't newbie-friendly. Both are RL wallet-friendly and that's fine for me. The beauty of EVE is that neither ISK nor SP alone can make you a good player.
A couple of considerations here:
- player turn-over means that EvE can only survive if they manage to pull in new players at a rate equal or higher than they are losing them. Since some players will always leave no matter what CCP does to retain them, they're well advised to keep EvE interesting to new players.
- as other's have said already: paying a sub is ok, paying micro-transactions is ok, having both systems in your game is ok as long as CCP don't send the message that you can't get anywhere without paying a sub and into a bottomless pit of forced micro-transactions.
- the use of PLEX by those who add game-time to their account is limited to 1 per month at a max. Yes, you can buy more and even add game.time to your account, but you'll never get any more out of it. Especially you don't get an ingame advantage over anyone else by applying gametime to your account with a PLEX. This balances the PLEX system somewhat.
-> with SP for ISK ... True: the available SP on the market will be limited by the time it takes to train disposable SP on characters who can afford to train SP that will ultimately be removed and sold. This will lead to scarcity and price increase of SP. Unlike PLEX, you can use as many SP boosters as you wish on your character. To me that seems pretty unbalanced.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:05:04 -
[4609] - Quote
Alexander Tekitsu wrote:Runaway thread, Sorry if any of this has been covered/proposed in the past couple hundred pages ( obviously a hot topic ) which I honestly can't think of reading.
I don't agree that it should just dump unallocated SP into your character. I mentioned in another thread that I like the Booster approach. now take the numbers here of a 500k SP packet, allow it to be injected like a booster. The rate that it increases your training is relative to the amount of SP you have.
Packet has a base "boost" rate across the board of +40 to all attributes. Using diminishing returns calculated at the time on consuming to modify these attributes determines how long it will run for. A fictitious set of numbers below.
At 500k SP it would run flat out +40 until it has surrendered the 500k SP ( 138.9 hours or 5.8 Days ) At 5,000k SP it would run at +30 until it has surrendered the 500k SP ( 185.2 hours or 7.7 Days) At 50,000k SP it would run at +4 until it has surrendered the 500k SP ( 1388.9 hours or 58 Days )
So the more SP you have, the slower the consumption rate and 0 instant gratification.
Since you can't run 2 at the same time, this makes them more beneficial to newer players as an older player would not be benefited by buying 10 at a time ( since that would take about 2 years to run through ) vets already concern about that. No need to get it worse. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:05:41 -
[4610] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote:... The study is actually about a single MMORPG, so would you like to restate this? So you are using a study based on one game to argue that all games should work in a certain way? "Games should" is provided by the study. You can't just reduce the whole conversation to "but this surely can't apply to all games". Levi Belvar wrote:Give me the link to this information on what game, not you just saying what game Here. All that analysis you've been preaching on about is WoW. You most definatly went down the wrong route Dror, Even the world its self is instanced. Its not a global ecomony and as i already stated everything in game is Based on a level design, Dungeons / raids / PvP. Its a terrible comparison, Blizzard has even taken the token idea from CCP / plex Oh and the loving your characters comes from the fact you cant sell them. EDIT@Dror Infact for all that bullshit youve been spouting over the past few days i'd resub and even transfer one of my 100's and let you hammer away at it for 30 minutes to so how equally balanced you could be before swiping your from stormwind into the next expansion. Quote the page, then, where it says the MMO.
Apparently, it's about any of X MMOs, listed on page 20.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
|
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
234
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:06:09 -
[4611] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many skill points are considered 'enough' to be able to play the game properly? for those supporting this proposal the answer would be 'more than I currently have'... or 'less than I currently have, as I am looking forward to cashing in on unnecessary SP' That's a point, those PvP combat only pilots who can fly all the ships they already want to can with this idea just keep selling the additional SP from their subscription time to fund their very narrow area of gameplay. Wouldn't be such a bad thing if it didn't come from seriously messing with one of the core areas of the game. Consider it's by no means and 'all or nothing' not a 'now or never' choice. The proposed system will be very flexible. For example, I have 3 accounts: . A main, PVP focused, which probably I'd keep skilling up normally . A first alt account focused on industry and trading. On this account, I have no major use for additional SP, the 3 chars work perfectly for what I want to do with them. I could easily choose to sell all of this account's monthly SP to make it pay for itself . A second alt account with a cap pilot, that I'll certainly skill up. I could also choose to use the first alt account's SP to train faster (main char of this account is around 30Mil SP) I see this proposal simply as a way to allow SP-rich players trade with SP-poor players, for everyone's benefit (the former make some ISK, the latter get some SP).
ccp has stated you wont be able to sell a month accumulated sp for a plex. how they will control this is up for debate but they dont want an account to be self sustaining if it doesnt need more sp |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
433
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:06:11 -
[4612] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:EDIT@Dror Infact for all that bullshit youve been spouting over the past few days (snip)
QFT
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4212
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:10:21 -
[4613] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:ccp has stated you wont be able to sell a month accumulated sp for a plex. how they will control this is up for debate but they dont want an account to be self sustaining if it doesnt need more sp Interesting. Do you have a source for this, please?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
433
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:16:32 -
[4614] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Regarding new players, it would be an additional option available to them, and an additional goal to motivate them to play. Considering we all got by just fine without it, I'd say they'll be at least a tiny little bit better off if this change kicks in?
Will it be as optional as overheating modules, which was supposed to be a last resort to escape or win a losing fight ? Currently people engage overheating on weapons before they even get in range to lock a target at all.
or
will it be as optional as rigs, which were meant to be a way of tuning your fits and not become an integral part of any standard fit.
A thing is only optional if you don't have a detriment from not using it.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4213
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:18:10 -
[4615] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:Unlike PLEX, you can use as many SP boosters as you wish on your character. To me that seems pretty unbalanced. I see what you mean, but where's the unbalance?
EVE is full of new players, older players, multi-year vets, new players buying high-SP characters since many years now, etc...
What does it matter to you if you're fighting against a 5-year vet, a newbro that just bought a 5-year SP char on the bazaar, or a newbro that just consumed 5 years-worth of skill packets?
Also, when your fighting, say, T2 cruiser v T2 cruiser, what does it matter how many SP the other guy has in addition to lvl 4s and/or a bunch of lvl 5s on all relevant skills to fly that ship?
Finally, what does it matter when a super-high SP guy comes along in a super-pimped officer modded pirate battleship, when you just blob him with a bunch of friends in t1-fit t1 cruisers?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
100
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:18:20 -
[4616] - Quote
Dror wrote:Apparently, it's about any of X MMOs, listed on page 20.
Okay 10 MMO's and none are in anyway comparable to EvE all self contained entities and runescape ffs and free2play so my first post still applied. I'd have hoped nobody would of asked for that data too.
and its page 15. |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
235
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:20:30 -
[4617] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Lady Rift wrote:ccp has stated you wont be able to sell a month accumulated sp for a plex. how they will control this is up for debate but they dont want an account to be self sustaining if it doesnt need more sp Interesting. Do you have a source for this, please?
Sorry can't find it :( might have to edit my comment to nothing till i can, but i might just be going crazy. I just crawled though most of this thread and what i could search on slack. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2290
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:21:37 -
[4618] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Regarding new players, it would be an additional option available to them, and an additional goal to motivate them to play. Considering we all got by just fine without it, I'd say they'll be at least a tiny little bit better off if this change kicks in?
The concern would be that this pushes them to turbo-rat, thus burn out even faster.
More ratting>more isk>more (imagined) success is how they are likely to see it. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4213
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:22:21 -
[4619] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Regarding new players, it would be an additional option available to them, and an additional goal to motivate them to play. Considering we all got by just fine without it, I'd say they'll be at least a tiny little bit better off if this change kicks in? Will it be as optional as overheating modules, which was supposed to be a last resort to escape or win a losing fight ? Currently people engage overheating on weapons before they even get in range to lock a target at all. or will it be as optional as rigs, which were meant to be a way of tuning your fits and not become an integral part of any standard fit. A thing is only optional if you don't have a detriment from not using it. Not sure what 'supposed to be' even means in a sandbox game...
When and why were people not supposed to fit rigs on a ship?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4213
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:24:55 -
[4620] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Lady Rift wrote:ccp has stated you wont be able to sell a month accumulated sp for a plex. how they will control this is up for debate but they dont want an account to be self sustaining if it doesnt need more sp Interesting. Do you have a source for this, please? Sorry can't find it :( might have to edit my comment to nothing till i can, but i might just be going crazy. I just crawled though most of this thread and what i could search on slack. No worries
They could do that by not allowing you to drain more than, say 1 Mil SP a month from any single character. But that would be weird, as they usually don't interfere that much on players' freedom to use game mechanics... or on the in-game market...
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:25:20 -
[4621] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Apparently, it's about any of X MMOs, listed on page 20. Okay 10 MMO's and none are in anyway comparable to EvE all self contained entities and runescape ffs and free2play so my first post still applied. I'd have hoped nobody would of asked for that data too. and its page 15. "Psychological ownership theory and social identity theory don't apply, really!"
Jill Xelitras wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:EDIT@Dror Infact for all that bullshit youve been spouting over the past few days (snip) QFT It'd odd how a clear vision of increasing sub retention through what even the devlopment company states is the problem (motivation and expectations), defined through science's take on those, can be met with such non-scientific, unbased responses.
Isn't that unnecessary bias? Here's a logical claim on:
increasing content Each sub that could explore the game would undock more instead of being forced to set a queue and "just figure out something else" that they're not necessarily interested in. They could be industrious, so there are more options to make ISK, thus more opportunity to undock. Newbies engaging sov with decent fleet comps requires sovereignties to out-pay or out-strategize them. The trend is more accessibility = more play.
increasing interest through just getting out of the way of intrinsic motivation That includes the drives to master the game; to experience relevance in a dynamic (and deeply economical) environment (including increased depth of social factors, plausibly increasing referrals); and to feel effective and free.
increased interest through meeting expectations Subs come to the game to play it. From stories.. that's about capitals, the many ships and fleet comps, and industrialization.
If you have literally any alternatives for these, this is a decent place to post it. Until then, maybe you should post less
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4213
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:30:04 -
[4622] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Regarding new players, it would be an additional option available to them, and an additional goal to motivate them to play. Considering we all got by just fine without it, I'd say they'll be at least a tiny little bit better off if this change kicks in?
The concern would be that this pushes them to turbo-rat, thus burn out even faster. More ratting>more isk>more (imagined) success is how they are likely to see it. I see what you mean.
But since this is not necessary to enjoy the game, and actually detrimental to having fun, why should newbros do it?
You know what NCQ&A would look like after the change?
Newbro: hi guys, just started playing, do I need to grind for SP-packets?
Helpful vets: [insert explanation of game mechanics] TL;DR: no.
As I said above, if newbros don't ask and/or listen and/or do some research, they'll never enjoy EVE with or without SP packets.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
434
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:31:31 -
[4623] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Jill Xelitras wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote: I see this proposal simply as a way to allow SP-rich players trade with SP-poor players, for everyone's benefit (the former make some ISK, the latter get some SP).
Yes, it will do that. But it will also send a message to new players that they have to spend $ to buy PLEX, sell those ingame for ISK to buy SP if they don't want to get left behind. Both CCP and any of us smart EVE players that happen to talk to newbies should worry less about imagined :messages: that game mechanics :send: and focus on taking these dudes under our wings and showing them how this damn game really works. Not against you, Jill, but I'm sick and tired of people saying for example 'people come from other MMOs and think that EVE is grind/character/gear based just like other MMOs'. WTF? 5 minutes of googling will show anyone with half a brain that EVE is different. If newbies don't have even a half a brain, they will never survive in EVE anyway. If they do, they'll ask and hopefully find people that will answer. Just browse NCQ&A forums for good, useful, consistent answers that explain to anyone that bothers asking what EVE is and how SP and ISK matter much much less than investing time to learn this game and making friends to fly with. A newbro that has the passion and attitude to thrive in EVE will quickly understand to use SP packets as an option, if/when useful only. Just as most of them understand it's useless to use PLEX to buy officer mods for your solo battleship just to end up as an ALOD. A newbro that doesn't even try to understand EVE basics doesn't really belong here and would quit anyway.
Ok, this makes sense.
I still feel that the proposed system would benefit from a hard cap on how many SP you could add per month / 6 months / year ... but I do get your position now.
Add a new tool and let players figue it out.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2290
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:33:05 -
[4624] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:afkalt wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Regarding new players, it would be an additional option available to them, and an additional goal to motivate them to play. Considering we all got by just fine without it, I'd say they'll be at least a tiny little bit better off if this change kicks in?
The concern would be that this pushes them to turbo-rat, thus burn out even faster. More ratting>more isk>more (imagined) success is how they are likely to see it. I see what you mean. But since this is not necessary to enjoy the game, and actually detrimental to having fun, why should newbros do it? You know what NCQ&A would look like after the change? Newbro: hi guys, just started playing, do I need to grind for SP-packets? Helpful vets: [insert explanation of game mechanics] TL;DR: no. As I said above, if newbros don't ask and/or listen and/or do some research, they'll never enjoy EVE with or without SP packets.
In an ideal world, yes. However we're pretty far from one.
This thread alone is abound with people feeling pressure they can't "catch up" and rookie help is literally like russian roulette in terms of quality of information supplied.
A shedload of people already get caught in the ratting trap, imagine how many more will be pulled in if they see that "if I can just rat 4 more hours, I can get into that battleship!" is actually possible? I have a horrible feeling the answer is "far too many". |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:34:16 -
[4625] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Regarding new players, it would be an additional option available to them, and an additional goal to motivate them to play. Considering we all got by just fine without it, I'd say they'll be at least a tiny little bit better off if this change kicks in?
The concern would be that this pushes them to turbo-rat, thus burn out even faster. More ratting>more isk>more (imagined) success is how they are likely to see it. Get rich or get bored trying! Thats our slogan
|
Burk Nysar
Hounds of War. Hashashin Cartel
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:39:46 -
[4626] - Quote
I love the idea, I am stuck in a rut of knowing what ships I want to pilot and not being able to pilot them. This made me walk away from the game for several months just letting my character SP accumulate. I could have been providing content for those four months with this new addition because I would not have left the game. I also have made many mistakes with my characters skills trying to learn all the aspects of the game. I can remedy those now that I actually have a clue what I want to do in game. I can't wait for this to be implemented. If you want more content and keep newer people in the game, this is a great way to do it. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
100
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:40:28 -
[4627] - Quote
Dror wrote:"Psychological ownership theory and social identity theory don't apply, really!".
Well as far are most of them are concerned i cant say 100% but transfering a character from one account you own to another account you own you arnt loosing ownership of said character - Its not like the bazaar where your selling your meatsack full of skillpoints to another person. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4213
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:40:44 -
[4628] - Quote
afkalt wrote:In an ideal world, yes. However we're pretty far from one.
This thread alone is abound with people feeling pressure they can't "catch up" and rookie help is literally like russian roulette in terms of quality of information supplied.
A shedload of people already get caught in the ratting trap, imagine how many more will be pulled in if they see that "if I can just rat 4 more hours, I can get into that battleship!" is actually possible? I have a horrible feeling the answer is "far too many". I actually agree with your concern, that certainly will happen in some cases.
On the other hand, setting aside the extreme burn-out cases, an additional motivation to newbros to do stuff could be quite positive. 'I'll just play skill queue online for the first few months' in many cases will be substituted by 'I'll actually do stuff, so I'll train a bit faster, learn and have fun at the same time!'.
Also, consider it from a RL $ point of view instead of an ISK-grinding point of view.
I've been playing since 2.5 years. With 1, then 2, now 3 accounts I gave CCP at least 1,000$ so far. That's a friggin' huge amount of cash!
Granted, it's been 15 to 45$ per month instead of all together, and yes I enjoyed myself all of the time so I got what I paid for. But it's not so crazy to think that many newbros will do the math and think that paying, say, 100$ for a headstart is a good deal...
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:44:02 -
[4629] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:"Psychological ownership theory and social identity theory don't apply, really!". Well as far are most of them are concerned i cant say 100% but transfering a character from one account you own to another account you own you arnt loosing ownership of said character - Its not like the bazaar where your selling your meatsack full of skillpoints to another person. ..If only that was relevant with the listed SP issues.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
277
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:45:24 -
[4630] - Quote
If you want to grind for progress, here's a top tip: go to an MMO that has it. |
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2292
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:46:11 -
[4631] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:afkalt wrote:In an ideal world, yes. However we're pretty far from one.
This thread alone is abound with people feeling pressure they can't "catch up" and rookie help is literally like russian roulette in terms of quality of information supplied.
A shedload of people already get caught in the ratting trap, imagine how many more will be pulled in if they see that "if I can just rat 4 more hours, I can get into that battleship!" is actually possible? I have a horrible feeling the answer is "far too many". I actually agree with your concern, that certainly will happen in some cases. On the other hand, setting aside the extreme burn-out cases, an additional motivation to newbros to do stuff could be quite positive. 'I'll just play skill queue online for the first few months' in many cases will be substituted by 'I'll actually do stuff, so I'll train a bit faster, learn and have fun at the same time!'. Also, consider it from a RL $ point of view instead of an ISK-grinding point of view. I've been playing since 2.5 years. With 1, then 2, now 3 accounts I gave CCP at least 1,000$ so far. That's a friggin' huge amount of cash! Granted, it's been 15 to 45$ per month instead of all together, and yes I enjoyed myself all of the time so I got what I paid for. But it's not so crazy to think that many newbros will do the math and think that paying, say, 100$ for a headstart is a good deal...
Maybe, but there would be better ways to get newbros a head start than this, I think.
It might work out, but I'm, wary. |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
235
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:46:49 -
[4632] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:If you want to grind for progress, here's a top tip: go to an MMO that has it.
this one will soon. so just start grinding now to be able to afford it. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:51:54 -
[4633] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:afkalt wrote:In an ideal world, yes. However we're pretty far from one.
This thread alone is abound with people feeling pressure they can't "catch up" and rookie help is literally like russian roulette in terms of quality of information supplied.
A shedload of people already get caught in the ratting trap, imagine how many more will be pulled in if they see that "if I can just rat 4 more hours, I can get into that battleship!" is actually possible? I have a horrible feeling the answer is "far too many". I actually agree with your concern, that certainly will happen in some cases. On the other hand, setting aside the extreme burn-out cases, an additional motivation to newbros to do stuff could be quite positive. 'I'll just play skill queue online for the first few months' in many cases will be substituted by 'I'll actually do stuff, so I'll train a bit faster, learn and have fun at the same time!'. Also, consider it from a RL $ point of view instead of an ISK-grinding point of view. I've been playing since 2.5 years. With 1, then 2, now 3 accounts I gave CCP at least 1,000$ so far. That's a friggin' huge amount of cash! Granted, it's been 15 to 45$ per month instead of all together, and yes I enjoyed myself all of the time so I got what I paid for. But it's not so crazy to think that many newbros will do the math and think that paying, say, 100$ for a headstart is a good deal... Maybe, but there would be better ways to get newbros a head start than this, I think. It might work out, but I'm, wary. don't worry be happy.mp3 |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
100
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:52:24 -
[4634] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:"Psychological ownership theory and social identity theory don't apply, really!". Well as far are most of them are concerned i cant say 100% but transfering a character from one account you own to another account you own you arnt loosing ownership of said character - Its not like the bazaar where your selling your meatsack full of skillpoints to another person. ..If only that was relevant with the listed SP issues.
As far as im concerned about your personal issues with the skillpoint system take it up with CCP.
Fact: Over a decade, not the full 12 years for the most part there has been very few issues with the skill system in place with EvE The subs based continued to grow steadily, until 18 months or so which indicates that something in game altered people perception, what who knows, Fozziesov - Jump fatigue ?
As already stated numerous times, CCP does have a problem with fixing things that don't really need fixing !! |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:56:04 -
[4635] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:"Psychological ownership theory and social identity theory don't apply, really!". Well as far are most of them are concerned i cant say 100% but transfering a character from one account you own to another account you own you arnt loosing ownership of said character - Its not like the bazaar where your selling your meatsack full of skillpoints to another person. ..If only that was relevant with the listed SP issues. As far as im concerned about your personal issues with the skillpoint system take it up with CCP. Fact: Over a decade, not the full 12 years for the most part there has been very few issues with the skill system in place with EvE The subs based continued to grow steadily, until 18 months or so which indicates that something in game altered people perception, what who knows, Fozziesov - Jump fatigue ? As already stated numerous times, CCP does have a problem with fixing things that don't really need fixing !! Well, now they're discussing microtransactions to "replace" the original skill queue design.
There's this idea about game fatigue. If the company can't replace those with fresh subs effectively, then that seems like an issue. Again, I've listed logical, based ideas that can improve the whole game. If you have alternatives, they're welcome.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Aves Asio
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:57:54 -
[4636] - Quote
Burk Nysar wrote:I love the idea, I am stuck in a rut of knowing what ships I want to pilot and not being able to pilot them. This made me walk away from the game for several months just letting my character SP accumulate. I could have been providing content for those four months with this new addition because I would not have left the game. I also have made many mistakes with my characters skills trying to learn all the aspects of the game. I can remedy those now that I actually have a clue what I want to do in game. I can't wait for this to be implemented. If you want more content and keep newer people in the game, this is a great way to do it.
Let me guess, you want to fly svipuls and purifers. What happens when svipuls get nerfed and the missions get too hard for a bomber? You just go and buy your self in to the next thing that stands out? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
100
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 17:01:30 -
[4637] - Quote
Dror wrote:Well, now they're discussing microtransactions to "replace" the original skill queue design.
There's this idea about game fatigue. If the company can't replace those with fresh subs effectively, then that seems like an issue. Again, I've listed logical, based ideas that can improve the whole game. If you have alternatives, they're welcome.
Posted earlier but the oily rag and his organ grinder didnt respond.
"Dror
After doing some reading lastnight i will hold my hands up and apologise, In case of law you can quite credibly argue that the skillpoints are rewards. Look at them as a perk for your loyalty for a month.
Now we can look at this in a whole new light so as in most games these days, You dont own anything in reality lets call it a rental period, Just the same as going to Eurocar, You pay you drive it round for a month you return it - at the end youve paid but you dont have anything to show for its expense. Seeing as CCP own all the intellectual property rights to everything in game - including the character bazaar, what they are actually doing is allowing you to move there skillpoints from one account to another for a fixed fee.
So now we have established that CCP already sell skillpoints, albeit in a cumbersome form and for the most part not newbro friendly because of there Isk cost / skillpoint ratio gained.
So now we have also established that CCP are not magically whipping skillpoints out of thin air, why not make it newbro friendly and just sell direct to the customer for a set figure, mitigating all possible scams / exploitation from with in the game generating income and with a good marketing plan increase the sub base." |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
435
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 17:01:46 -
[4638] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Jill Xelitras wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Regarding new players, it would be an additional option available to them, and an additional goal to motivate them to play. Considering we all got by just fine without it, I'd say they'll be at least a tiny little bit better off if this change kicks in? Will it be as optional as overheating modules, which was supposed to be a last resort to escape or win a losing fight ? Currently people engage overheating on weapons before they even get in range to lock a target at all. or will it be as optional as rigs, which were meant to be a way of tuning your fits and not become an integral part of any standard fit. A thing is only optional if you don't have a detriment from not using it. Not sure what 'supposed to be' even means in a sandbox game... When and why were people not supposed to fit rigs on a ship?
When rigs were introduced, there was only one size fits all rigs and they were quite expensive. It's not so much that you weren't supposed to fit rigs as much as you seriously had to commit to a fit. The main reason why rigs are so wide-spread is because the availability of salvage materials pushed the price of rigs. So much that people put rigs on smaller and cheaper hulls too. The than new widespread use of rigs made CCP add medium and small rigs.
When I say "supposed to", I mean the way it was designed to work and as it was explained to us players. Of course this doesn't mean that a system can't be used in a different fashion ... which again is why we're having this long discussions in this thread.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
235
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 17:09:41 -
[4639] - Quote
Aves Asio wrote:Burk Nysar wrote:I love the idea, I am stuck in a rut of knowing what ships I want to pilot and not being able to pilot them. This made me walk away from the game for several months just letting my character SP accumulate. I could have been providing content for those four months with this new addition because I would not have left the game. I also have made many mistakes with my characters skills trying to learn all the aspects of the game. I can remedy those now that I actually have a clue what I want to do in game. I can't wait for this to be implemented. If you want more content and keep newer people in the game, this is a great way to do it. Let me guess, you want to fly svipuls and purifers. What happens when svipuls get nerfed and the missions get too hard for a bomber? You just go and buy your self in to the next thing that stands out?
if it takes someone 4 months to fly a bomber something is wrong. same with a svipul |
Burk Nysar
Hounds of War. Hashashin Cartel
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 17:16:37 -
[4640] - Quote
Aves Asio wrote:Burk Nysar wrote:I love the idea, I am stuck in a rut of knowing what ships I want to pilot and not being able to pilot them. This made me walk away from the game for several months just letting my character SP accumulate. I could have been providing content for those four months with this new addition because I would not have left the game. I also have made many mistakes with my characters skills trying to learn all the aspects of the game. I can remedy those now that I actually have a clue what I want to do in game. I can't wait for this to be implemented. If you want more content and keep newer people in the game, this is a great way to do it. Let me guess, you want to fly svipuls and purifers. What happens when svipuls get nerfed and the missions get too hard for a bomber? You just go and buy your self in to the next thing that stands out?
I want to be able to look at kill mails and see myself doing a comparable amount of damage as my teammates flying the same fit as me instead of just being cannon fodder. I want to be able to do blops with my corp in a ship other than a bomber. I want to lose shiny ****, but be able to be effective with it. What do you care what other people do with their money if it keeps them interested in the game. I have taken two breaks from this game just to let my SP build. I provided 0 content for anyone in this game during that time. You are not going to lose any new players because of this change, but you may keep more around. |
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2292
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 17:19:10 -
[4641] - Quote
Burk Nysar wrote:Aves Asio wrote:Burk Nysar wrote:I love the idea, I am stuck in a rut of knowing what ships I want to pilot and not being able to pilot them. This made me walk away from the game for several months just letting my character SP accumulate. I could have been providing content for those four months with this new addition because I would not have left the game. I also have made many mistakes with my characters skills trying to learn all the aspects of the game. I can remedy those now that I actually have a clue what I want to do in game. I can't wait for this to be implemented. If you want more content and keep newer people in the game, this is a great way to do it. Let me guess, you want to fly svipuls and purifers. What happens when svipuls get nerfed and the missions get too hard for a bomber? You just go and buy your self in to the next thing that stands out? I want to be able to look at kill mails and see myself doing a comparable amount of damage as my teammates flying the same fit as me instead of just being cannon fodder. I want to be able to do blops with my corp in a ship other than a bomber. I want to lose shiny ****, but be able to be effective with it. What do you care what other people do with their money if it keeps them interested in the game. I have taken two breaks from this game just to let my SP build. I provided 0 content for anyone in this game during that time.
So I'm curious, why not the character bazaar? You've a fairly reasonable shot of getting, say, a blops pilot from there. |
Burk Nysar
Hounds of War. Hashashin Cartel
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 17:21:59 -
[4642] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Burk Nysar wrote:Aves Asio wrote:Burk Nysar wrote:I love the idea, I am stuck in a rut of knowing what ships I want to pilot and not being able to pilot them. This made me walk away from the game for several months just letting my character SP accumulate. I could have been providing content for those four months with this new addition because I would not have left the game. I also have made many mistakes with my characters skills trying to learn all the aspects of the game. I can remedy those now that I actually have a clue what I want to do in game. I can't wait for this to be implemented. If you want more content and keep newer people in the game, this is a great way to do it. Let me guess, you want to fly svipuls and purifers. What happens when svipuls get nerfed and the missions get too hard for a bomber? You just go and buy your self in to the next thing that stands out? I want to be able to look at kill mails and see myself doing a comparable amount of damage as my teammates flying the same fit as me instead of just being cannon fodder. I want to be able to do blops with my corp in a ship other than a bomber. I want to lose shiny ****, but be able to be effective with it. What do you care what other people do with their money if it keeps them interested in the game. I have taken two breaks from this game just to let my SP build. I provided 0 content for anyone in this game during that time. So I'm curious, why not the character bazaar? You've a fairly reasonable shot of getting, say, a blops pilot from there.
I have no clue how to even begin looking into a characters past. I don't know how to judge the worth of a pilot from the bazzar. My wife would be pissed if I said hey honey gonna drop $200 more on Eve and resub again in a month. She'll get over me spending a few on a plex though. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 17:23:58 -
[4643] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Well, now they're discussing microtransactions to "replace" the original skill queue design.
There's this idea about game fatigue. If the company can't replace those with fresh subs effectively, then that seems like an issue. Again, I've listed logical, based ideas that can improve the whole game. If you have alternatives, they're welcome. Posted earlier but the oily rag and his organ grinder didnt respond. "Dror After doing some reading lastnight i will hold my hands up and apologise, In case of law you can quite credibly argue that the skillpoints are rewards. Look at them as a perk for your loyalty for a month. Now we can look at this in a whole new light so as in most games these days, You dont own anything in reality lets call it a rental period, Just the same as going to Eurocar, You pay you drive it round for a month you return it - at the end youve paid but you dont have anything to show for its expense. Seeing as CCP own all the intellectual property rights to everything in game - including the character bazaar, what they are actually doing is allowing you to move there skillpoints from one account to another for a fixed fee. So now we have established that CCP already sell skillpoints, albeit in a cumbersome form and for the most part not newbro friendly because of there Isk cost / skillpoint ratio gained. So now we have also established that CCP are not magically whipping skillpoints out of thin air, why not make it newbro friendly and just sell direct to the customer for a set figure, mitigating all possible scams / exploitation from with in the game generating income and with a good marketing plan increase the sub base." It's less than obvious why "SP comes from somewhere" is stated but followed by, what seems to be, "SP coming from nowhere" as a monetization idea.
It's still relying on SP and microtransactions to "drive" interest in the game. That seems flimsy at best.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
436
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 17:40:41 -
[4644] - Quote
All sides have been heard I think.
What we need now is a poll.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
100
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 17:48:08 -
[4645] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Well, now they're discussing microtransactions to "replace" the original skill queue design.
There's this idea about game fatigue. If the company can't replace those with fresh subs effectively, then that seems like an issue. Again, I've listed logical, based ideas that can improve the whole game. If you have alternatives, they're welcome. Posted earlier but the oily rag and his organ grinder didnt respond. "Dror After doing some reading lastnight i will hold my hands up and apologise, In case of law you can quite credibly argue that the skillpoints are rewards. Look at them as a perk for your loyalty for a month. Now we can look at this in a whole new light so as in most games these days, You dont own anything in reality lets call it a rental period, Just the same as going to Eurocar, You pay you drive it round for a month you return it - at the end youve paid but you dont have anything to show for its expense. Seeing as CCP own all the intellectual property rights to everything in game - including the character bazaar, what they are actually doing is allowing you to move there skillpoints from one account to another for a fixed fee. So now we have established that CCP already sell skillpoints, albeit in a cumbersome form and for the most part not newbro friendly because of there Isk cost / skillpoint ratio gained. So now we have also established that CCP are not magically whipping skillpoints out of thin air, why not make it newbro friendly and just sell direct to the customer for a set figure, mitigating all possible scams / exploitation from with in the game generating income and with a good marketing plan increase the sub base." It's less than obvious why "SP comes from somewhere" is stated but followed by, what seems to be, "SP coming from nowhere" as a monetization idea. It's still relying on SP and microtransactions to "drive" interest in the game. That seems flimsy at best.
Maybe flimsy but 5% retention = 25% to 95% profit
|
Burk Nysar
Hounds of War. Hashashin Cartel
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 17:48:52 -
[4646] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote: All sides have been heard I think.
What we need now is a poll.
What is the question being asked? If CCP's goal with this change is to make it easier for new characters to progress their sp quicker than training, and more approachable than the character bazzar for said newer players. I would say yes, this change will help that. |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
468
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 17:53:41 -
[4647] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:"Psychological ownership theory and social identity theory don't apply, really!". Well as far are most of them are concerned i cant say 100% but transfering a character from one account you own to another account you own you arnt loosing ownership of said character - Its not like the bazaar where your selling your meatsack full of skillpoints to another person. ..If only that was relevant with the listed SP issues. As far as im concerned about your personal issues with the skillpoint system take it up with CCP. Fact: Over a decade, not the full 12 years for the most part there has been very few issues with the skill system in place with EvE The subs based continued to grow steadily, until 18 months or so which indicates that something in game altered people perception, what who knows, Fozziesov - Jump fatigue ? As already stated numerous times, CCP does have a problem with fixing things that don't really need fixing !!
Subs stopped growing after incarna. There was a dip, then a it rebounded and then started sliding. The way I see it is being in a long term relationship and all of a sudden catching your partner talking to someone else. Nothing crazy but enough that it broke down trust in a long relationship. You get into a fight but don't want to throw away the relationship over that so you talk and work it out. You slowly come around and rekindle the romance. And then you start seeing that your partner hasn't really changed. They don't let you see their phone, they hang out late without taking to you, etc. You slowly start losing trust and interest seeing your efforts have been disappointed. |
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 18:32:56 -
[4648] - Quote
This.
All the haters complaining about how this all can be terrible to EVE without being able to make a single solid point. Can we all just enjoy the f*ckin game?
I don't see anyone complaining about people injecting PLEX in the market to be rich ingame using real life cash, but when they propose something that isn't remotely as interfering you sh*t all over it? Seriously, you people need to go out more. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1854
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 18:39:48 -
[4649] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote: All sides have been heard I think.
What we need now is a poll.
Only if it comes with an exotic dancer... |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2294
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 18:39:55 -
[4650] - Quote
Havenard wrote:This. All the haters complaining about how this all can be terrible to EVE without being able to make a single solid point. Can we all just enjoy the f*ckin game? I don't see anyone complaining about people injecting PLEX in the market to be rich ingame using real life cash, but when they propose something that isn't remotely as interfering you sh*t all over it? Seriously, you people need to go out more.
The fact you're running around with your eyes closed, fingers in your ears saying "lalalalalalalalaICANTHEARYOU" does not invalidate peoples concerns. |
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4056
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 18:49:29 -
[4651] - Quote
Havenard wrote:This. All the haters complaining about how this all can be terrible to EVE without being able to make a single solid point. Can we all just enjoy the f*ckin game? I don't see anyone complaining about people injecting PLEX in the market to be rich ingame using real life cash, but when they propose something that isn't remotely as interfering you sh*t all over it? Seriously, you people need to go out more.
A PLEX gets you ISK. ISK gets you stuff. Stuff can be destroyed, and often it is destroyed. The advantages of PLEX are temporary and subject to destruction.
Skillpoints are destroyed only in a exceptional case. Thus, buying SP gives a permanent advantage that it's almost impossible to destroy.
Do you see a relevant difference here?
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Burk Nysar
Hounds of War. Hashashin Cartel
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 18:58:47 -
[4652] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Havenard wrote:This. All the haters complaining about how this all can be terrible to EVE without being able to make a single solid point. Can we all just enjoy the f*ckin game? I don't see anyone complaining about people injecting PLEX in the market to be rich ingame using real life cash, but when they propose something that isn't remotely as interfering you sh*t all over it? Seriously, you people need to go out more. A PLEX gets you ISK. ISK gets you stuff. Stuff can be destroyed, and often it is destroyed. The advantages of PLEX are temporary and subject to destruction. Skillpoints are destroyed only in a exceptional case. Thus, buying SP gives a permanent advantage that it's almost impossible to destroy. Do you see a relevant difference here?
It helps close the gap of the advantage that veterans have over new players, for those that have money to throw at it. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 19:04:30 -
[4653] - Quote
Burk Nysar wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Havenard wrote:This. All the haters complaining about how this all can be terrible to EVE without being able to make a single solid point. Can we all just enjoy the f*ckin game? I don't see anyone complaining about people injecting PLEX in the market to be rich ingame using real life cash, but when they propose something that isn't remotely as interfering you sh*t all over it? Seriously, you people need to go out more. A PLEX gets you ISK. ISK gets you stuff. Stuff can be destroyed, and often it is destroyed. The advantages of PLEX are temporary and subject to destruction. Skillpoints are destroyed only in a exceptional case. Thus, buying SP gives a permanent advantage that it's almost impossible to destroy. Do you see a relevant difference here? It helps close the gap of the advantage that veterans have over new players, for those that have money to throw at it. Now you are really hurting vets feelings. They all gonna quite and we will miss them. |
Jadon Wallace
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 19:10:50 -
[4654] - Quote
Burk Nysar wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Havenard wrote:This. All the haters complaining about how this all can be terrible to EVE without being able to make a single solid point. Can we all just enjoy the f*ckin game? I don't see anyone complaining about people injecting PLEX in the market to be rich ingame using real life cash, but when they propose something that isn't remotely as interfering you sh*t all over it? Seriously, you people need to go out more. A PLEX gets you ISK. ISK gets you stuff. Stuff can be destroyed, and often it is destroyed. The advantages of PLEX are temporary and subject to destruction. Skillpoints are destroyed only in a exceptional case. Thus, buying SP gives a permanent advantage that it's almost impossible to destroy. Do you see a relevant difference here? It helps close the gap of the advantage that veterans have over new players, for those that have money to throw at it.
Isn't that kind of a important point? How many new players have money to throw at this, or are we going down to bringing out the credit cards to give a boost to our SP? I think there are much better things that can be done to improve the NPE than this. |
Burk Nysar
Hounds of War. Hashashin Cartel
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 19:17:51 -
[4655] - Quote
Jadon Wallace wrote:Burk Nysar wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Havenard wrote:This. All the haters complaining about how this all can be terrible to EVE without being able to make a single solid point. Can we all just enjoy the f*ckin game? I don't see anyone complaining about people injecting PLEX in the market to be rich ingame using real life cash, but when they propose something that isn't remotely as interfering you sh*t all over it? Seriously, you people need to go out more. A PLEX gets you ISK. ISK gets you stuff. Stuff can be destroyed, and often it is destroyed. The advantages of PLEX are temporary and subject to destruction. Skillpoints are destroyed only in a exceptional case. Thus, buying SP gives a permanent advantage that it's almost impossible to destroy. Do you see a relevant difference here? It helps close the gap of the advantage that veterans have over new players, for those that have money to throw at it. Isn't that kind of a important point? How many new players have money to throw at this, or are we going down to bringing out the credit cards to give a boost to our SP? I think there are much better things that can be done to improve the NPE than this.
Enough people that CCP thinks it's a worth while investment of time to develop it. I may be the exception, but I am willing to spend some cash to reallocate some of my SP that I have wasted on this character
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 19:20:23 -
[4656] - Quote
Burk Nysar wrote: Enough people that CCP thinks it's a worth while investment of time to develop it. I may be the exception, but I am willing to spend some cash to reallocate some of my SP that I have wasted on this character
You will make PLEX cheaper. Thank you. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4057
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 19:23:21 -
[4657] - Quote
Burk Nysar wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Havenard wrote:This. All the haters complaining about how this all can be terrible to EVE without being able to make a single solid point. Can we all just enjoy the f*ckin game? I don't see anyone complaining about people injecting PLEX in the market to be rich ingame using real life cash, but when they propose something that isn't remotely as interfering you sh*t all over it? Seriously, you people need to go out more. A PLEX gets you ISK. ISK gets you stuff. Stuff can be destroyed, and often it is destroyed. The advantages of PLEX are temporary and subject to destruction. Skillpoints are destroyed only in a exceptional case. Thus, buying SP gives a permanent advantage that it's almost impossible to destroy. Do you see a relevant difference here? It helps close the gap of the advantage that veterans have over new players, for those that have money to throw at it.
a) who's more likely to have ISK to buy SP packages? Johny New or Joe Vet? b) if it's for the noobs, then limit it to the first n SP.
Also you didn't adressed the point. Should CCP sell permanent advantages to players?
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 19:25:30 -
[4658] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Should CCP sell permanent advantages to players? They already do.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Burk Nysar
Hounds of War. Hashashin Cartel
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 19:39:45 -
[4659] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Burk Nysar wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Havenard wrote:This. All the haters complaining about how this all can be terrible to EVE without being able to make a single solid point. Can we all just enjoy the f*ckin game? I don't see anyone complaining about people injecting PLEX in the market to be rich ingame using real life cash, but when they propose something that isn't remotely as interfering you sh*t all over it? Seriously, you people need to go out more. A PLEX gets you ISK. ISK gets you stuff. Stuff can be destroyed, and often it is destroyed. The advantages of PLEX are temporary and subject to destruction. Skillpoints are destroyed only in a exceptional case. Thus, buying SP gives a permanent advantage that it's almost impossible to destroy. Do you see a relevant difference here? It helps close the gap of the advantage that veterans have over new players, for those that have money to throw at it. a) who's more likely to have ISK to buy SP packages? Johny New or Joe Vet? b) if it's for the noobs, then limit it to the first n SP. Also you didn't adressed the point. Should CCP sell permanent advantages to players?
A. Joe vet but what is the point you are trying to make? Are Vets going to go crazy and max out Megacorporation Management V ? They more than likely have V in all the attributes I want to feel like I'm on a level playing field with them in PVP. B. I don't really have an opinion there
Yes they should sell a permanent advantage. I personally want to purchase SP and I'm sure many others that face a similar SP cliff that I am facing would like to as well. I could care less about the advantage you think it gives other people, I know it'll limit my disadvantage, improve my enjoyment of he game, and keep me coming back for more EVE for many years to come. |
Shinzann
Beast Cat Industries
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 19:42:49 -
[4660] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Havenard wrote:This. All the haters complaining about how this all can be terrible to EVE without being able to make a single solid point. Can we all just enjoy the f*ckin game? I don't see anyone complaining about people injecting PLEX in the market to be rich ingame using real life cash, but when they propose something that isn't remotely as interfering you sh*t all over it? Seriously, you people need to go out more. A PLEX gets you ISK. ISK gets you stuff. Stuff can be destroyed, and often it is destroyed. The advantages of PLEX are temporary and subject to destruction. Skillpoints are destroyed only in a exceptional case. Thus, buying SP gives a permanent advantage that it's almost impossible to destroy. Do you see a relevant difference here?
I concur with my fellow capsuleer on the permanence of skillpoints versus everything else in the game.
Making it easier to buy toons in the Character Bazaar? No problem.
Offering a rename/resculpt service to toons to help them escape their unsavory histories? Yes, I can see that being a useful service.
Allowing me to package up and sell skillpoints from skills I might have regretted training over the years? NO. Choices and consequences. I like looking at my mining drone II and mining IV skills because it reminds me of the weekend back in '06 when I tried mining as a way of making money. They're like the scars you get as you go through life. Being able to remove them... cheapens EVE in my opinion.
As for that fellow from a few pages back complaining that he was wasn't able to make content because he can't fly the flashy ships, I'm reminded of this old Goon propaganda poster from back in the day...Old Goonswarm Propaganda poster |
|
Burk Nysar
Hounds of War. Hashashin Cartel
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:03:22 -
[4661] - Quote
Shinzann wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Havenard wrote:This. All the haters complaining about how this all can be terrible to EVE without being able to make a single solid point. Can we all just enjoy the f*ckin game? I don't see anyone complaining about people injecting PLEX in the market to be rich ingame using real life cash, but when they propose something that isn't remotely as interfering you sh*t all over it? Seriously, you people need to go out more. A PLEX gets you ISK. ISK gets you stuff. Stuff can be destroyed, and often it is destroyed. The advantages of PLEX are temporary and subject to destruction. Skillpoints are destroyed only in a exceptional case. Thus, buying SP gives a permanent advantage that it's almost impossible to destroy. Do you see a relevant difference here? I concur with my fellow capsuleer on the permanence of skillpoints versus everything else in the game. Making it easier to buy toons in the Character Bazaar? No problem. Offering a rename/resculpt service to toons to help them escape their unsavory histories? Yes, I can see that being a useful service. Allowing me to package up and sell skillpoints from skills I might have regretted training over the years? NO. Choices and consequences. I like looking at my mining drone II and mining IV skills because it reminds me of the weekend back in '06 when I tried mining as a way of making money. They're like the scars you get as you go through life. Being able to remove them... cheapens EVE in my opinion. As for that fellow from a few pages back complaining that he was wasn't able to make content because he can't fly the flashy ships, I'm reminded of this old Goon propaganda poster from back in the day... Old Goonswarm Propaganda poster
Will that keep you up at night if I am able to purchase Minmitar Cruise V with cash? Will it hurt you if some new bros are able to fly your alliance doctrines because you gave them some SP? Will it diminish your enjoyment of the game if your fleets have more people willing to undock and fight because they can reship into stuff that can match your damage/tank output?
|
Burk Nysar
Hounds of War. Hashashin Cartel
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:09:01 -
[4662] - Quote
Can someone outline the disadvantages of this in their opinion? How will adding this system turn people away from the game? What will it do that will ruin the game for you?
In my opinion most people won't even notice a change. To people like me, it will mean all the difference in keeping me in the game. Providing me an option to boost my SP in what I want without having to wait away from game for 6 months.
It just seems to me many people are upset because it's going to be "pay to win", or it's the prinicpal of I did it you should have to as well. I guarantee I will still be losing just as much as before. I'm not going to be turning into super FC. I just want a perceived equal playing field. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4058
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:10:18 -
[4663] - Quote
Dror wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Should CCP sell permanent advantages to players? They already do.
Such as?
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
18
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:21:32 -
[4664] - Quote
Burk Nysar wrote:A. Joe vet but what is the point you are trying to make?
Actually, I think people with 80m+ SP are unlikely to use this system, unless they are really rich or the tokens are really cheap (they probably wont). People with less than 50m are the ones to really benefict, its going to be fantastic to reduce the gap between new players and vets. I can already see me finally sitting in a Tengu without having to wait another year. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:25:01 -
[4665] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Dror wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Should CCP sell permanent advantages to players? They already do. Such as? The character bazaar.
Protip: the thread's already discussed that this could benefit veterans the most.
Beyond that, adding microtransactions to a sub game, albeit just granular versions of what's already there, is absurd. I believe (and would say the same of development) that making a great game is within objective parameters, because science (as CCP is aware) has already established what's motivating. It's feeling great, more so than getting something. Will this improve sustain? I'm sure I would've gotten some SP initially, but would it have come with some form of cheapness feeling? I'm already dealing with my crew talking about regretting paying so much for the game.. it's within plausibility that it equally increases that level of value requirement which the game might not can provide as is. There are some pretty extensive criticisms on the progression system, altogether, and it seems the main reason for about every low quality aspect of the game.
So, this seems more like a patch than a fix.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4059
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:28:37 -
[4666] - Quote
Burk Nysar wrote:Can someone outline the disadvantages of this in their opinion? How will adding this system turn people away from the game? What will it do that will ruin the game for you?
In my opinion most people won't even notice a change. To people like me, it will mean all the difference in keeping me in the game. Providing me an option to boost my SP in what I want without having to wait away from game for 6 months.
Do you know the expression "moving goalposts?"
Let's say that you buy certain skills to fly ship A. Then vets will fly ship B, or learn the skills to fly ship B, and kick your ass. Then you buy the skills to fly ship C and have a chance versus ship B, but veterans will shift to ship D and again keep the upper hand. No matter how much money you spend, veterans will always be a step ahead since they know how to play the game and what skills to buy to defeat your attempts of "catching up".
This already happens with fleet doctrines and "OP" ships, but the process will be much faster once people can buy whole racial skillsets as needed.
The only way in which this measure can help noobs is by limiting it to noobs in terms of SP. Let everybody buy their first 10 million SP, or 6 monhs of skilling. After that, no more quick skilling.
And yet, knowing or not which skills to buy will render some of all of your noob money a waste.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:30:27 -
[4667] - Quote
Dror wrote:Protip: the thread's already discussed that this could benefit veterans the most.
Yeah sure, vets have a lot to gain paying the cost of 500k SP to get only 50k SP, and boy, they need 50k SP so hard, its going to change the world for them....
Are you people even thinking before talking? |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
22
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:37:06 -
[4668] - Quote
Havenard wrote:Dror wrote:Protip: the thread's already discussed that this could benefit veterans the most. Yeah sure, vets have a lot to gain paying the cost of 500k SP to get only 50k SP, and boy, they need 50k SP so hard, its going to change the world for them.... Are you people even thinking before talking? If they super rich in terms of isk they could create new specialized toon, so they actually benift from it also. |
Shinzann
Beast Cat Industries
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:37:12 -
[4669] - Quote
Burk Nysar wrote:Shinzann wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Havenard wrote:This. All the haters complaining about how this all can be terrible to EVE without being able to make a single solid point. Can we all just enjoy the f*ckin game? I don't see anyone complaining about people injecting PLEX in the market to be rich ingame using real life cash, but when they propose something that isn't remotely as interfering you sh*t all over it? Seriously, you people need to go out more. A PLEX gets you ISK. ISK gets you stuff. Stuff can be destroyed, and often it is destroyed. The advantages of PLEX are temporary and subject to destruction. Skillpoints are destroyed only in a exceptional case. Thus, buying SP gives a permanent advantage that it's almost impossible to destroy. Do you see a relevant difference here? I concur with my fellow capsuleer on the permanence of skillpoints versus everything else in the game. Making it easier to buy toons in the Character Bazaar? No problem. Offering a rename/resculpt service to toons to help them escape their unsavory histories? Yes, I can see that being a useful service. Allowing me to package up and sell skillpoints from skills I might have regretted training over the years? NO. Choices and consequences. I like looking at my mining drone II and mining IV skills because it reminds me of the weekend back in '06 when I tried mining as a way of making money. They're like the scars you get as you go through life. Being able to remove them... cheapens EVE in my opinion. As for that fellow from a few pages back complaining that he was wasn't able to make content because he can't fly the flashy ships, I'm reminded of this old Goon propaganda poster from back in the day... Old Goonswarm Propaganda poster Will that keep you up at night if I am able to purchase Minmitar Cruise V with cash? Will it hurt you if some new bros are able to fly your alliance doctrines because you gave them some SP? Will it diminish your enjoyment of the game if your fleets have more people willing to undock and fight because they can reship into stuff that can match your damage/tank output? I had to walk up hill both ways to school, you should too
Will it keep me up at night? No.
Will it keep me up at night that players like you are willing to give CCP money to buy Minmatar Cruiser V because you're too impatient to learn them the old fashioned way? No. CCP could use the money.
That doesn't mean I have to like the idea though. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4059
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:38:00 -
[4670] - Quote
Havenard wrote:Dror wrote:Protip: the thread's already discussed that this could benefit veterans the most. Yeah sure, vets have a lot to gain paying the cost of 500k SP to get only 50k SP, and boy, they need 50k SP so hard, its going to change the world for them.... Are you people even thinking before talking?
I think you underestimate the amount of trillionaires in EVE...
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
|
Shinzann
Beast Cat Industries
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:41:13 -
[4671] - Quote
Havenard wrote:Dror wrote:Protip: the thread's already discussed that this could benefit veterans the most. Yeah sure, vets have a lot to gain paying the cost of 500k SP to get only 50k SP, and boy, they need 50k SP so hard, its going to change the world for them.... Are you people even thinking before talking?
I still haven't used the SP they gave us the last couple of times yet...
|
Burk Nysar
Hounds of War. Hashashin Cartel
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:42:35 -
[4672] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Burk Nysar wrote:Can someone outline the disadvantages of this in their opinion? How will adding this system turn people away from the game? What will it do that will ruin the game for you?
In my opinion most people won't even notice a change. To people like me, it will mean all the difference in keeping me in the game. Providing me an option to boost my SP in what I want without having to wait away from game for 6 months. Do you know the expression "moving goalposts?" Let's say that you buy certain skills to fly ship A. Then vets will fly ship B, or learn the skills to fly ship B, and kick your ass. Then you buy the skills to fly ship C and have a chance versus ship B, but veterans will shift to ship D and again keep the upper hand. No matter how much money you spend, veterans will always be a step ahead since they know how to play the game and what skills to buy to defeat your attempts of "catching up". This already happens with fleet doctrines and "OP" ships, but the process will be much faster once people can buy whole racial skillsets as needed. The only way in which this measure can help noobs is by limiting it to noobs in terms of SP. Let everybody buy their first 10 million SP, or 6 monhs of skilling. After that, no more quick skilling. And yet, knowing or not which skills to buy will render some of all of your noob money a waste.
And that effects you how if I decide to do this with my money? |
Shinzann
Beast Cat Industries
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:44:56 -
[4673] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Burk Nysar wrote:Can someone outline the disadvantages of this in their opinion? How will adding this system turn people away from the game? What will it do that will ruin the game for you?
In my opinion most people won't even notice a change. To people like me, it will mean all the difference in keeping me in the game. Providing me an option to boost my SP in what I want without having to wait away from game for 6 months. Do you know the expression "moving goalposts?" Let's say that you buy certain skills to fly ship A. Then vets will fly ship B, or learn the skills to fly ship B, and kick your ass. Then you buy the skills to fly ship C and have a chance versus ship B, but veterans will shift to ship D and again keep the upper hand. No matter how much money you spend, veterans will always be a step ahead since they know how to play the game and what skills to buy to defeat your attempts of "catching up". This already happens with fleet doctrines and "OP" ships, but the process will be much faster once people can buy whole racial skillsets as needed. The only way in which this measure can help noobs is by limiting it to noobs in terms of SP. Let everybody buy their first 10 million SP, or 6 monhs of skilling. After that, no more quick skilling. And yet, knowing or not which skills to buy will render some of all of your noob money a waste.
Again, I concur with my fellow capsuleer.
|
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:46:19 -
[4674] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Havenard wrote:Dror wrote:Protip: the thread's already discussed that this could benefit veterans the most. Yeah sure, vets have a lot to gain paying the cost of 500k SP to get only 50k SP, and boy, they need 50k SP so hard, its going to change the world for them.... Are you people even thinking before talking? If they super rich in terms of isk they could create new specialized toon, so they actually benift from it also.
The amount of ISK you would have to spend to make it fly a Titan or something highly specialized like that would make it more worth buying a Titan pilot from the bazaar instead of creating a new character.
As of smaller ships, there is nothing wrong about that. So what that someone makes a toon and make it into a specialized incursion runner instantly? Its just an investment like any other.
And it helps ISK flow, as his money is now in a lot of other player's pockets, people getting rid of skills they regret training etc. Will help people redistribute their SP to have a better EVE experience. |
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:50:20 -
[4675] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Burk Nysar wrote:Can someone outline the disadvantages of this in their opinion? How will adding this system turn people away from the game? What will it do that will ruin the game for you?
In my opinion most people won't even notice a change. To people like me, it will mean all the difference in keeping me in the game. Providing me an option to boost my SP in what I want without having to wait away from game for 6 months. Do you know the expression "moving goalposts?" Let's say that you buy certain skills to fly ship A. Then vets will fly ship B, or learn the skills to fly ship B, and kick your ass. Then you buy the skills to fly ship C and have a chance versus ship B, but veterans will shift to ship D and again keep the upper hand. No matter how much money you spend, veterans will always be a step ahead since they know how to play the game and what skills to buy to defeat your attempts of "catching up". This already happens with fleet doctrines and "OP" ships, but the process will be much faster once people can buy whole racial skillsets as needed. The only way in which this measure can help noobs is by limiting it to noobs in terms of SP. Let everybody buy their first 10 million SP, or 6 monhs of skilling. After that, no more quick skilling. And yet, knowing or not which skills to buy will render some of all of your noob money a waste.
This argument is so simpleton I don't even know how to answer to this, I can only presume you are a troll, because if you are not you need help. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4223
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:50:38 -
[4676] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Havenard wrote:Dror wrote:Protip: the thread's already discussed that this could benefit veterans the most. Yeah sure, vets have a lot to gain paying the cost of 500k SP to get only 50k SP, and boy, they need 50k SP so hard, its going to change the world for them.... Are you people even thinking before talking? I think you underestimate the amount of trillionaires in EVE... I can't wait for all these trillionaires to pay my alt's sub.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Saelyth
Umbra Reconnaissance Swamphole
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:59:47 -
[4677] - Quote
TL;DR: Just do it. It already exists in another fashion.
There are some things to remember here that it seems a lot of people are missing.
SP is already being traded at "zero risk" through the sale of full characters every day Pure and simple, the Character Bazaar in the forums hosts thousands of full character sales. Some of these characters have a "colorful history," some of them have never been outside Jita save their first trip there from in their noobship. People have whole accounts and theorycrafted training queues dedicated to doing this already.
This really isn't fundamentally different than the existing Character Bazaar People are already paying real-money to buy Characters/SP. What functional or fundamental difference is there between paying X Plex or Y Dollars for a "Perfect Interceptor Pilot" or whatever flavor character than paying for the equivalent SP in smaller pieces? In both cases, person A has dedicated time and money to create the original SP and person B wants to buy it.
There are actually benefits to this proposed approach The functionality proposed here is a way to provide, accommodate, and bring additional exposure or awareness to a system that has existed for a very, very long time already. While there's likely no official poll on the topic, I would wager a guess that most "new" players are unaware of the Character Bazaar altogether. By creating a mechanic IN-GAME and on the market, everyone will be able to readily see it and choose to take part if they wish to. Further, you retain ownership of your name, race, gender, and history, to boot. Just because someone else in the past had to stomach buying a character with some unfortunate aspect to it doesn't mean everyone else needs to suffer the same.
They notion that they didn't earn the SP is baseless On that logic, one could say that neither did anyone that ever purchased a character on the Bazaar since its inception. Let's say I decided today to buy a new 80m SP character. Well, there's 80m SP I just got for cash that as far as I'm concerned just came out of thin air (in my perspective).
With the sharp falloffs and high skill points among veterans, there's not much to gain/exploit At a 10% efficiency, it would really be more cost-effective to buy an older, higher SP character. To put this in another perspective, a subscription costs about $15 a month. This would be like spending $150 for that same month. Will there be people that do it? Probably. Is this going to make a significant difference? No, it really won't. I don't feel there is much difference between a 150m character and one with 150.5m. I could take it further, too; there's really no functional difference in that character and one with 200m. Your skills all max at 5. They can't be any better at any given task than a low SP character who only maximizes for said task. The other guy buying out 5s in Dreadnaughts, Carriers, and whatever else is irrelevant when you're facing them in their Sleipnir. The other guy buying out a bunch of interceptor skills is irrelevant when you're facing their Sabre. On the other side, the guy who is actually flying what he paid into isn't any different than the guy that just flat out bought the "perfect whatever pilot." It's already a factor of EVE. We already deal with it.
====
What's the concern, then? Are people enraged at the idea that some low to mid-range character can pick up someone else's SP(resources) and add them to their own at a whim? Is that really any different than me selling the above theoretical 80m SP character and buying a new one at 100m instead? Why should I, or anyone, have to jump through additional steps to accommodate the same exact result? In every case, it always comes down to "Person A spent time building what Person B wants and is willing to sell it."
Personally, my feelings on the matter are that in the grand scheme of things are that if this can keep new players active (or bring ex-players back) in the EVE universe, this is ultimately better for everyone.
Are there improvements that can be made to the proposal? Sure, and that's what the purpose of this thread is for. It seems the most common notion is that of a hard cap. While 10% efficiency is already pretty severe and discouraging, a hard cap would just be another step where that last 10% goes away. Where to define it, any why, would be what needs to be figured out. Would it also be preferable that this process starts at 90% efficiency instead of 100%? Is it preferable or even beneficial to the sandbox for all such transfers to result in a permanent loss of total SP in the database? If so, why should it when the Character Bazaar doesn't result in that?
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
4061
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 21:02:32 -
[4678] - Quote
Havenard wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Burk Nysar wrote:Can someone outline the disadvantages of this in their opinion? How will adding this system turn people away from the game? What will it do that will ruin the game for you?
In my opinion most people won't even notice a change. To people like me, it will mean all the difference in keeping me in the game. Providing me an option to boost my SP in what I want without having to wait away from game for 6 months. Do you know the expression "moving goalposts?" Let's say that you buy certain skills to fly ship A. Then vets will fly ship B, or learn the skills to fly ship B, and kick your ass. Then you buy the skills to fly ship C and have a chance versus ship B, but veterans will shift to ship D and again keep the upper hand. No matter how much money you spend, veterans will always be a step ahead since they know how to play the game and what skills to buy to defeat your attempts of "catching up". This already happens with fleet doctrines and "OP" ships, but the process will be much faster once people can buy whole racial skillsets as needed. The only way in which this measure can help noobs is by limiting it to noobs in terms of SP. Let everybody buy their first 10 million SP, or 6 monhs of skilling. After that, no more quick skilling. And yet, knowing or not which skills to buy will render some of all of your noob money a waste. This argument is so simpleton I don't even know how to answer to this, I can only presume you are a troll, because if you are not you need help.
I think the simpleton is in your mirror, since I was describing an arms race.
"I want to buy skills to compete" is useless when the competitors also can buy them and have the expertise and experience to invest their money better than you.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
23
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 21:07:24 -
[4679] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:I think the simpleton is in your mirror, since I was describing an arms race.
"I want to buy skills to compete" is useless when the competitors also can buy them and have the expertise and experience to invest their money better than you. Yeah, sure, arms race. I'm sure someone will pick you, as individual, and train exclusively things that counter you (there must be a lot). And this guy is a rich veteran, that for some reason doesn't already have skills to fly whatever he wants trained, he needs to buy a lot of SP tokens for that. Yeah, looks like a very realistic scenario to me. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4224
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 21:09:01 -
[4680] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Havenard wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Burk Nysar wrote:Can someone outline the disadvantages of this in their opinion? How will adding this system turn people away from the game? What will it do that will ruin the game for you?
In my opinion most people won't even notice a change. To people like me, it will mean all the difference in keeping me in the game. Providing me an option to boost my SP in what I want without having to wait away from game for 6 months. Do you know the expression "moving goalposts?" Let's say that you buy certain skills to fly ship A. Then vets will fly ship B, or learn the skills to fly ship B, and kick your ass. Then you buy the skills to fly ship C and have a chance versus ship B, but veterans will shift to ship D and again keep the upper hand. No matter how much money you spend, veterans will always be a step ahead since they know how to play the game and what skills to buy to defeat your attempts of "catching up". This already happens with fleet doctrines and "OP" ships, but the process will be much faster once people can buy whole racial skillsets as needed. The only way in which this measure can help noobs is by limiting it to noobs in terms of SP. Let everybody buy their first 10 million SP, or 6 monhs of skilling. After that, no more quick skilling. And yet, knowing or not which skills to buy will render some of all of your noob money a waste. This argument is so simpleton I don't even know how to answer to this, I can only presume you are a troll, because if you are not you need help. I think the simpleton is in your mirror, since I was describing an arms race. "I want to buy skills to compete" is useless when the competitors also can buy them and have the expertise and experience to invest their money better than you. In what scenario do you think SP are decisive to compete in EVE?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
|
Saelyth
Umbra Reconnaissance Swamphole
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 21:11:28 -
[4681] - Quote
Havenard wrote: Yeah, sure, arms race. I'm sure someone will pick you, as individual, and train exclusively things that counter you (there must be a lot). And this guy is a rich veteran, that for some reason doesn't already have skills to fly whatever he wants trained, he needs to buy a lot of SP tokens for that. Yeah, looks like a very realistic scenario to me.
Right, all while skills all still cap at 5, and the veterans, like you said, probably already have it anyways. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 21:13:35 -
[4682] - Quote
Havenard wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:I think the simpleton is in your mirror, since I was describing an arms race.
"I want to buy skills to compete" is useless when the competitors also can buy them and have the expertise and experience to invest their money better than you. Yeah, sure, arms race. I'm sure someone will pick you, as individual, and train exclusively things that counter you (there must be a lot). And this guy is a rich veteran, that for some reason doesn't already have skills to fly whatever he wants trained, he needs to buy a lot of SP tokens for that. Yeah, looks like a very realistic scenario to me. Honestly, though, that could be said about any game where paying real money for an advantage. It may not effect you, but there's the whole law of large numbers. Enough purchases equals an abundance of advantages.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Saelyth
Umbra Reconnaissance Swamphole
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 21:23:41 -
[4683] - Quote
Dror wrote: Honestly, though, that could be said about any game where paying real money for an advantage. It may not effect you, but there's the whole law of large numbers. Enough purchases equals an abundance of advantages.
What are these advantages that presumably don't already exist in another fashion (character bazaar)? |
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 21:27:25 -
[4684] - Quote
Dror wrote:Havenard wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:I think the simpleton is in your mirror, since I was describing an arms race.
"I want to buy skills to compete" is useless when the competitors also can buy them and have the expertise and experience to invest their money better than you. Yeah, sure, arms race. I'm sure someone will pick you, as individual, and train exclusively things that counter you (there must be a lot). And this guy is a rich veteran, that for some reason doesn't already have skills to fly whatever he wants trained, he needs to buy a lot of SP tokens for that. Yeah, looks like a very realistic scenario to me. Honestly, though, that could be said about any game where paying real money for an advantage. It may not effect you, but there's the whole law of large numbers. Enough purchases equals an abundance of advantages.
True, but the key word is trade off. CCP won't sell SP, players will.
Those with high SP can still benefict? Yes, of course, a lot less than people with low SP but still. The important thing is they will have to pay more, and this ISK will end on other players' pockets. Not CCP's, players'. Players who, out of ignorance, trained things they regret on their rookie days, because they didn't understand the basics of the game yet, like myself as example.
Another point is, EVE trillionaires didn't become trillionaires by burning ISK on sh*t they don't need. Can they burn trillions of ISK to rapidly benefict their SP pool? Technically, yes. Will they do it? I doubt it very much. What if they do it? Well, so what if they do it? There will be one more poor player in the game that can fly a supercap to add up to the many we already have. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4225
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 21:33:26 -
[4685] - Quote
To paraphrase Andy Warhol: in EVE's future, everybody will have 50 million SP.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 21:37:01 -
[4686] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:To paraphrase Andy Warhol: in EVE's future, everybody will have 50 million SP. I'm confortable with that, though I doubt it will be quite what will happen, I'm sure this all will be very expensive. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4227
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 21:45:50 -
[4687] - Quote
Havenard wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:To paraphrase Andy Warhol: in EVE's future, everybody will have 50 million SP. I'm confortable with that, though I doubt it will be quite what will happen, I'm sure this all will be very expensive. Probably. But if enough people decided to pause their training and cash-in the SP (e.g. to buy PLEX in-game), prices could drop quite low.
Say you can't afford to pay your sub in $ and don't want to or can't grind 1.2 bil ISK a month for PLEX. Would you be willing to sell ALL your monthly SP for 1.2 bil ISK and play, instead of unsubbing?
If the answer is yes and other people do it too, would you be willing to sell your monthly SP for just 1 bil, so you just need to grind 200 mil for a plex?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 21:55:37 -
[4688] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Havenard wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:To paraphrase Andy Warhol: in EVE's future, everybody will have 50 million SP. I'm confortable with that, though I doubt it will be quite what will happen, I'm sure this all will be very expensive. Probably. But if enough people decided to pause their training and cash-in the SP (e.g. to buy PLEX in-game), prices could drop quite low. Say you can't afford to pay your sub in $ and don't want to or can't grind 1.2 bil ISK a month for PLEX. Would you be willing to sell ALL your monthly SP for 1.2 bil ISK and play, instead of unsubbing? If the answer is yes and other people do it too, would you be willing to sell your monthly SP for just 1 bil, so you just need to grind 200 mil for a plex?
Maybe they drop, maybe not. What I know for certain is that the PLEX price will make another jump, for two main reasons.
First, its probable that the thing you need to extract SP will be sold for AUR, just like the SKINs, and people willing to convert their SP for ISK will have to buy a PLEX to convert for AUR first, the same way they are doing to buy SKINs, which is the whole reason why the PLEX price jumped from 800m to 1200m recently.
And second, I'm sure a lot of people will buy PLEX to activate more training queues and farm SP for their main chars themselves.
Lets hope CCP have mercy of our souls and sell it for ISK from NPC orders, this way at least we have another inflation sink to compensate for the mess. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4227
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 22:02:21 -
[4689] - Quote
Havenard wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Havenard wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:To paraphrase Andy Warhol: in EVE's future, everybody will have 50 million SP. I'm confortable with that, though I doubt it will be quite what will happen, I'm sure this all will be very expensive. Probably. But if enough people decided to pause their training and cash-in the SP (e.g. to buy PLEX in-game), prices could drop quite low. Say you can't afford to pay your sub in $ and don't want to or can't grind 1.2 bil ISK a month for PLEX. Would you be willing to sell ALL your monthly SP for 1.2 bil ISK and play, instead of unsubbing? If the answer is yes and other people do it too, would you be willing to sell your monthly SP for just 1 bil, so you just need to grind 200 mil for a plex? Maybe they drop, maybe not. What I know for certain is that the PLEX price will make another jump, for two main reasons. First, its probable that the thing you need to extract SP will be sold for AUR, just like the SKINs, and people willing to convert their SP for ISK will have to buy a PLEX to convert for AUR first, the same way they are doing to buy SKINs, which is the whole reason why the PLEX price jumped from 800m to 1200m recently. And second, I'm sure a lot of people will buy PLEX to activate more training queues and farm SP for their main chars themselves. Oh boy, time to stock some PLEX... Yes the devblog says extractors will be sold for aur.
Not sure you'll need to farm on your alts, market price for SP could be equal or even cheaper than PLEXing an alt.
On the supply side, people could buy more PLEX for cash too, to afford the SP packets if they don't have enough ISK.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 22:05:59 -
[4690] - Quote
Guys we made it ! No more targets on d-scan. |
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
4063
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 22:25:46 -
[4691] - Quote
Havenard wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:I think the simpleton is in your mirror, since I was describing an arms race.
"I want to buy skills to compete" is useless when the competitors also can buy them and have the expertise and experience to invest their money better than you. Yeah, sure, arms race. I'm sure someone will pick you, as individual, and train exclusively things that counter you (there must be a lot). And this guy is a rich veteran, that for some reason doesn't already have skills to fly whatever he wants trained, he needs to buy a lot of SP tokens for that. Yeah, looks like a very realistic scenario to me.
Allegedly, "Noobs" want skills to compete with "vets" but "vets" also could buy them if they need to and nullify the skills bought by "noobs". Who is talking about me?
Lo que la naturaleza no da, Salamanca no lo presta...
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 22:36:09 -
[4692] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Havenard wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:I think the simpleton is in your mirror, since I was describing an arms race.
"I want to buy skills to compete" is useless when the competitors also can buy them and have the expertise and experience to invest their money better than you. Yeah, sure, arms race. I'm sure someone will pick you, as individual, and train exclusively things that counter you (there must be a lot). And this guy is a rich veteran, that for some reason doesn't already have skills to fly whatever he wants trained, he needs to buy a lot of SP tokens for that. Yeah, looks like a very realistic scenario to me. Allegedly, "Noobs" want skills to compete with "vets" but "vets" also could buy them if they need to and nullify the skills bought by "noobs". Who is talking about me? Lo que la naturaleza no da, Salamanca no lo presta... noobs have skills for competing, vets have expirence for outcompeting. So it is beneficial for both sides. Anything else? |
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 22:43:35 -
[4693] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Allegedly, "Noobs" want skills to compete with "vets" but "vets" also could buy them if they need to and nullify the skills bought by "noobs". Who is talking about me? Microscopic analysis of the problem, almost implying it has such impact on PVP that is like someone could adapt their skills in the middle of the combat (even if their could, what impact would it have?). Stop pushing this unrealistic expectation, you are making fool of yourself. |
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 22:44:33 -
[4694] - Quote
Havenard wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Allegedly, "Noobs" want skills to compete with "vets" but "vets" also could buy them if they need to and nullify the skills bought by "noobs". Who is talking about me? Microscopic analysis of the problem, almost implying it has such impact on PVP that is like someone could adapt their skills in the middle of the combat (even if their could, what impact would it have?). Stop pushing this unrealistic expectation, you are making fool of yourself.
|
Gaufres
Just Keep Hanging On
65
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 23:25:07 -
[4695] - Quote
As most of the Forum Trolls are so fond of saying, Risk vs Reward and Choices Have Consequences. I am completely opposed to this sort of Character Modification. You made your choices, live with them.
The same with Character Sales. Do your research before buying. Bad history is just that, Live with it. |
Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two Reckoning Star Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 23:34:09 -
[4696] - Quote
Gaufres wrote:As most of the Forum Trolls are so fond of saying, Risk vs Reward and Choices Have Consequences. I am completely opposed to this sort of Character Modification. You made your choices, live with them.
The same with Character Sales. Do your research before buying. Bad history is just that, Live with it.
Sasha was my first character, first choice. The skill packets would allow me to stay with my choice and get the skills I feel I "need" to move forward. So Sasha would live on, as my first choice for character, with all the consequences attached to her.
Now the character bazaar is exactly what you wish it wasn't, maybe you need to revise your perspective.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 23:40:08 -
[4697] - Quote
Gaufres wrote:You made your choices, live with them. .... Bad history is just that, Live with it. So I must live with consequences of actions what I never comitied because you told so? |
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 23:58:56 -
[4698] - Quote
Gaufres wrote:As most of the Forum Trolls are so fond of saying, Risk vs Reward and Choices Have Consequences. I am completely opposed to this sort of Character Modification. You made your choices, live with them.
The same with Character Sales. Do your research before buying. Bad history is just that, Live with it. Nobody finds this lack of flexibility appealing, and CCP knows that. Thats why they constantly propose changes that hopefully make the game more fun to everyone.
Not every consequence have to be lived with, if you buy a car and its not what you expect, sell it. You are not bound to it for eternity.
Specially talking about a game, where we are supposed to find entertainment, stress releavement, having means to mend your bad choices is essential for the satisfaction of the players. |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
472
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 01:54:04 -
[4699] - Quote
Havenard wrote:Gaufres wrote:As most of the Forum Trolls are so fond of saying, Risk vs Reward and Choices Have Consequences. I am completely opposed to this sort of Character Modification. You made your choices, live with them.
The same with Character Sales. Do your research before buying. Bad history is just that, Live with it. Nobody finds this lack of flexibility appealing, and CCP knows that. Thats why they constantly propose changes that hopefully make the game more fun to everyone. Not every consequence have to be lived with, if you buy a car and its not what you expect, sell it. You are not bound to it for eternity. Even vasectomy can be reversed. Specially talking about a game, where we are supposed to find entertainment, stress releavement, having means to mend your bad choices is essential for the satisfaction of the players. CCP have removed the need to upgrade clones out of respect for our SP, they have removed the need to have a registered account from many skills out of respect for new players that wanted to have a full EVE experience on trial, they increased trial from 14 to 30 days, lastly they gave us 400k start SP so we start with enough core skills to actually feel the game, and now they want to offer us means to repair bad training choices. To me, this is all one single line of thought, and everything they did so far on that line has been widely welcomed by everyone despite the concerns of bigots who fear the unknown.
So now we're bigots because you can't come up with a good reason that has not been dispelled by the players. We just see the many ways this will negatively affect eve. If you can't see and understand that because you're too closed minded that's not our fault.
And BTW, you're a year old. Stop talking like you're a newbie. You're almost the same age as the average eve player. |
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 02:23:45 -
[4700] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:So now we're bigots because you can't come up with a good reason that has not been dispelled by the players. We just see the many ways this will negatively affect eve. If you can't see and understand that because you're too closed minded that's not our fault.
And BTW, you're a year old. Stop talking like you're a newbie. You're almost the same age as the average eve player.
I'm not the one failing to bring up a good reason. You try to point many ways this could negatively affect EVE, but all I see is irrational fear, people picturing scenarios that are far from realistic, implying this will only benefict veteran players, implying every rich player in EVE will spend all their money to absorb the collective SP of everyone else as if this was a Agar.io match.
Wake the f*ck up. Nobody is going to trade their hard earned SP for crumbs and go back to flying Ventures, new players want SP too, many will use the system only to redistribute their own SP without giving it to anyone else, and the diminishing returns makes the whole deal a bazilian times more interesting to newbros than veterans, not only because they get up to 10 times more SP, but also because 50k SP to veterans don't help with sh*t.
When I first saw the post I had my concerns too, but I gave thought to the subject and consolidated a rational opinion. You should do that too. Take the benefics in consideration, not only what you think that could go wrong. Try to see the whole picture, and stop entertaining scenarios that are clearly fantasious. |
|
Tupac ice
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 02:34:17 -
[4701] - Quote
I will admit upfront that I have not read 175 pages of forum posts. I have read the first few and understand the concept.
I agree that there is a wide enough player base to seek a way to skill up quicker than the +5's and this has been further supported by the appetite of the +10s in the current Blood Raiders stuff (hell I know I'm out looking for them!)
People who are new want to skill up quicker to either compete or play with their friends. There is general agreement that skilling up a new guy too quick is detrimental to their retention and possibly putting them into things too soon, before they are 'competent'.
People with alts that they just wanna get to their intended purpose (mining fleet, traders, etc etc etc). Currently the only real means, is via purchasing a character - which I like.
Then finally people with a desire to switch paths, or races without too much hassle.
I think all three groups should be supported in their desire to skill up. I do not like that 'pay' to skill (yes I know we can buy characters atm). I think it moves Eve closer to what other games allow. This may be good, we may be able to draw upon their market? I do not believe that these people are not suited to the game - they may leave...they may not. We do know they will grow/mature and that is where Eve seems to pickup its gamers - the mature guys/gals that have played a few other things.
So my idea, universities! Why not have selected stations, or agents - that once a set standing has been increased you can enroll in a set course. The means in which is implemented is up to the devs, but whilst you are docked in said system, certain skills will train faster. These could be race based (Caldari Universities that help you train their hulls, missiles, shields, etc) or they could be attribute based (a military college boosting endurance or willpower?).
I see people being forced to 'grind' up status, to enroll in certain classes. This ensures new bros aren't just plonking into the station and walking away. There perhaps could be various levels, depending on your status. It would help people on long absences and even just whilst you sleep. There could be an ISK/day cost associated with it and perhaps it could be recorded on the characters info sheet, to help people 'identify' that some one may be more skilled than they are 'old'.
o7
Tupac
Who the hell is this Tupac guy.... And what would he know?
|
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 02:47:16 -
[4702] - Quote
Tupac ice wrote:I will admit upfront that I have not read 175 pages of forum posts. I have read the first few and understand the concept.
I agree that there is a wide enough player base to seek a way to skill up quicker than the +5's and this has been further supported by the appetite of the +10s in the current Blood Raiders stuff (hell I know I'm out looking for them!)
People who are new want to skill up quicker to either compete or play with their friends. There is general agreement that skilling up a new guy too quick is detrimental to their retention and possibly putting them into things too soon, before they are 'competent'.
People with alts that they just wanna get to their intended purpose (mining fleet, traders, etc etc etc). Currently the only real means, is via purchasing a character - which I like.
Then finally people with a desire to switch paths, or races without too much hassle.
I think all three groups should be supported in their desire to skill up. I do not like that 'pay' to skill (yes I know we can buy characters atm). I think it moves Eve closer to what other games allow. This may be good, we may be able to draw upon their market? I do not believe that these people are not suited to the game - they may leave...they may not. We do know they will grow/mature and that is where Eve seems to pickup its gamers - the mature guys/gals that have played a few other things.
So my idea, universities! Why not have selected stations, or agents - that once a set standing has been increased you can enroll in a set course. The means in which is implemented is up to the devs, but whilst you are docked in said system, certain skills will train faster. These could be race based (Caldari Universities that help you train their hulls, missiles, shields, etc) or they could be attribute based (a military college boosting endurance or willpower?).
I see people being forced to 'grind' up status, to enroll in certain classes. This ensures new bros aren't just plonking into the station and walking away. There perhaps could be various levels, depending on your status. It would help people on long absences and even just whilst you sleep. There could be an ISK/day cost associated with it and perhaps it could be recorded on the characters info sheet, to help people 'identify' that some one may be more skilled than they are 'old'.
o7
Tupac
This would benefict being online just for the sake of being online, those who can't stay online 24/7 would feel harmed, also, people would feel repelled from doing their normal ingame activities because if their undock the skill they want so bad will stop training fast... no, thats a terrible approach to the problem. Even paying extra to train faster looks better than this.
I hate slow training queues, but if theres one good aspect to it is exactly that what I'm training has zero impact over what I want to do with my time in the game. |
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
740
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 03:20:54 -
[4703] - Quote
Havenard wrote:Gaufres wrote:As most of the Forum Trolls are so fond of saying, Risk vs Reward and Choices Have Consequences. I am completely opposed to this sort of Character Modification. You made your choices, live with them.
The same with Character Sales. Do your research before buying. Bad history is just that, Live with it. Nobody finds this lack of flexibility appealing, and CCP knows that. Thats why they constantly propose changes that hopefully make the game more fun to everyone. Not every consequence have to be lived with, if you buy a car and its not what you expect, sell it. You are not bound to it for eternity. Even vasectomy can be reversed. Specially talking about a game, where we are supposed to find entertainment, stress releavement, having means to mend your bad choices is essential for the satisfaction of the players. CCP have removed the need to upgrade clones out of respect for our SP, they have removed the need to have a registered account from many skills out of respect for new players that wanted to have a full EVE experience on trial, they increased trial from 14 to 30 days, lastly they gave us 400k start SP so we start with enough core skills to actually feel the game, and now they want to offer us means to repair bad training choices. To me, this is all one single line of thought, and everything they did so far on that line has been widely welcomed by everyone despite the concerns of bigots who fear the unknown. "bigots" ? you might want to look up the meaning of words before committing them to your post.
Ok, I'll be happy to sell my unwanted SP to new players using CCP's proposal. It will be available on the market for 1 billion isk per 500k.
New players aren't the only ones who want to be able to fly different or better ships. I can't fly a blops battleship, yet with this proposal a new character can skill into one 400k SP at a time, quite quickly. Yet for me to do the same, I have to buy 8 packs for every one he does. Balanced?
If CCP want to start selling SP, older players should not be penalized. Having to pay 10 times more than a new guy for the same SP, simply because I have already dedicated X amount of years to Eve?
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
|
Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 03:24:44 -
[4704] - Quote
Could I suggest that the concept be considered in conjunction with skill sinks (currently T3)?
Stacking SP mechanisms invites development of destacking SP mechanisms.
I mention this as a consideration to take as adding neuro degeneration for certain events may be a desirable game play function once regaining skill point losses immediately is possible.
Just keep that possibility in mind when weighing the pros and cons is all I ask. |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
472
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 04:52:30 -
[4705] - Quote
Tupac ice wrote:I will admit upfront that I have not read 175 pages of forum posts. I have read the first few and understand the concept.
I agree that there is a wide enough player base to seek a way to skill up quicker than the +5's and this has been further supported by the appetite of the +10s in the current Blood Raiders stuff (hell I know I'm out looking for them!)
People who are new want to skill up quicker to either compete or play with their friends. There is general agreement that skilling up a new guy too quick is detrimental to their retention and possibly putting them into things too soon, before they are 'competent'.
People with alts that they just wanna get to their intended purpose (mining fleet, traders, etc etc etc). Currently the only real means, is via purchasing a character - which I like.
Then finally people with a desire to switch paths, or races without too much hassle.
I think all three groups should be supported in their desire to skill up. I do not like that 'pay' to skill (yes I know we can buy characters atm). I think it moves Eve closer to what other games allow. This may be good, we may be able to draw upon their market? I do not believe that these people are not suited to the game - they may leave...they may not. We do know they will grow/mature and that is where Eve seems to pickup its gamers - the mature guys/gals that have played a few other things.
So my idea, universities! Why not have selected stations, or agents - that once a set standing has been increased you can enroll in a set course. The means in which is implemented is up to the devs, but whilst you are docked in said system, certain skills will train faster. These could be race based (Caldari Universities that help you train their hulls, missiles, shields, etc) or they could be attribute based (a military college boosting endurance or willpower?).
I see people being forced to 'grind' up status, to enroll in certain classes. This ensures new bros aren't just plonking into the station and walking away. There perhaps could be various levels, depending on your status. It would help people on long absences and even just whilst you sleep. There could be an ISK/day cost associated with it and perhaps it could be recorded on the characters info sheet, to help people 'identify' that some one may be more skilled than they are 'old'.
o7
Tupac
Good post. Even though I disagree with the details II would support a method which rewards new players and an sp boost. As long as it won't be readily abused by veterans alts and done in a way that helps and educates new players. Something like a mission that requires they smuggle something in/out of lowsec, or kill a class 1 sleeper or complete a site with another player etc. Sat of tutorial missions which will encourage newbies to take on risks, engage with other players, ask for help, information, etc. And as a reward receive 500k-1m unallocated sp for each set or whatever. |
Octoven
WIFI Express Phoebe Freeport Republic
392
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 05:22:02 -
[4706] - Quote
Not really seeing too much of a problem with this change. Often times CCP makes changes to the game that massively affect your character. For example, changing the roles or weapons on a ship. If you trained your character for that specific ship and/or role, you now have wasted not only skills but time and money. This is especially more noticed in T2 and larger ships when skill training times start to really hurt.
So according to the ones against this proposal, you would argue that players should suck it up and live with the consequences of training into a ship that may take half a year or so to train into. Ok, lets take that under advisement, I can understand some level of responsibility with making skill training mistakes and it being based on the consequences of your actions. However, on the other hand, said player could not have foreseen a massive change to their favorite ship. So now they must waste more time and skills to train into another ship that supports the role they want to play, why should the player be penalized because the developer chooses to wreck their day by dropping a sweeping changes dev blog?
The other side to this is money, many may think, why should a player buy SPs with real cash? I should remind you that you are already doing that right now as we speak. Yes, subscription cost comes with many perks like playing the game, accessing the forums, and such. However, the real value in the $15/month is in the skill training. How many have left their accounts subbed whilst they took a break from EvE to simply keep skills being trained? SPs already = money, this option is just allowing you to advance it in incremental burst.
Aside from PLEX cost, these Skill Packets are traded through the market, thus players set the value to which they believe their skills are worth. In all honesty it is no different from buying a character off the bazar, you are paying $20 to purchase a character with millions of SPs, some worth it some not, and paying with in game currency as well. How is that ANY different from the proposal? Other than the fact that you are getting useless skills with the character not related to what you want it for, being forced to use a name and history that you have no idea of...in all honesty we are ALREADY buying SPs. I know a guy, I kid you not 4 days into EVE bought a character with 60mil SPs on it. Has no bloody clue how to use it or the stuff it can fly. This proposal is only allowing us to weed out the useless SPs we don't need and trading them to someone who does. Seems amicable to me. |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
472
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 05:27:25 -
[4707] - Quote
Havenard wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote:So now we're bigots because you can't come up with a good reason that has not been dispelled by the players. We just see the many ways this will negatively affect eve. If you can't see and understand that because you're too closed minded that's not our fault.
And BTW, you're a year old. Stop talking like you're a newbie. You're almost the same age as the average eve player. I'm not the one failing to bring up a good reason. You try to point many ways this could negatively affect EVE, but all I see is irrational fear, people picturing scenarios that are far from realistic, implying this will only benefict veteran players, implying every rich player in EVE will spend all their money to absorb the collective SP of everyone else as if this was a Agar.io match. Wake the f*ck up. Nobody is going to trade their hard earned SP for crumbs and go back to flying Ventures, new players want SP too, many will use the system only to redistribute their own SP without giving it to anyone else, and the diminishing returns makes the whole deal a bazilian times more interesting to newbros than veterans, not only because they get up to 10 times more SP, but also because 50k SP to veterans don't help with sh*t. When I first saw the post I had my concerns too, but I gave thought to the subject and consolidated a rational opinion. You should do that too. Take the benefics in consideration, not only what you think that could go wrong. Try to see the whole picture, and stop entertaining scenarios that are clearly fantasious.
They are far from fantasy. I guess you haven't been around in EVE long enough to know just how crazy EVE players can be. This goes beyond those scenarios. I don't understand why simply giving out free SP for certain missions arcs or whatever is not better than this. |
Ben Fenix
Multiplex Gaming
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 05:33:13 -
[4708] - Quote
I have been waiting a while for OP capitals and OP stations Looking forward to these changes. This is really going to shake up the static eve universe.
Capital Ships Matter !
|
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 05:58:47 -
[4709] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:They are far from fantasy. I guess you haven't been around in EVE long enough to know just how crazy EVE players can be. This goes beyond those scenarios. I don't understand why simply giving out free SP for certain missions arcs or whatever is not better than this. You sound just like those guys saying that letting Carriers use gates would ruin nullsec, making clones free would only benefict gankers, and giving 400k SP for new chars would only benefict bots... you just can't let go of your pessimism.
Now while giving SP on missions would be cool, it doesn't address the problems they are trying to solve with this system. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
106
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 07:02:46 -
[4710] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Havenard wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:I think the simpleton is in your mirror, since I was describing an arms race.
"I want to buy skills to compete" is useless when the competitors also can buy them and have the expertise and experience to invest their money better than you. Yeah, sure, arms race. I'm sure someone will pick you, as individual, and train exclusively things that counter you (there must be a lot). And this guy is a rich veteran, that for some reason doesn't already have skills to fly whatever he wants trained, he needs to buy a lot of SP tokens for that. Yeah, looks like a very realistic scenario to me. Allegedly, "Noobs" want skills to compete with "vets" but "vets" also could buy them if they need to and nullify the skills bought by "noobs". Who is talking about me? Lo que la naturaleza no da, Salamanca no lo presta... noobs have skills for competing, vets have expirence for outcompeting. So it is beneficial for both sides. Anything else?
So if the Vets, and moderatly skilled use there skillpoints to create alts or to boost exisitng, your example is then flipped, Newbro's have no experience, no skills and the vets and more skills on more characters, experience and the newbro's are sitting wonder WTF is happening. |
|
AngelFood
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 07:07:32 -
[4711] - Quote
Doomchinchilla wrote:ISK for SP, this is what happens when we let people that haven't played EVE for greater than 2 years onto the CSM. How can this even be remotely considered a good idea?
Not once have vets ever seriously thought this was a good idea. This is just bad. Just 100% bad.
Csm? you mean devs right?
Yes this is what happens when you let stream popular players or super alliance popular players become devs.
|
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
473
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 07:30:21 -
[4712] - Quote
Havenard wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote:They are far from fantasy. I guess you haven't been around in EVE long enough to know just how crazy EVE players can be. This goes beyond those scenarios. I don't understand why simply giving out free SP for certain missions arcs or whatever is not better than this. You sound just like those guys saying that letting Carriers use gates would ruin nullsec, making clones free would only benefict gankers, and giving 400k SP for new chars would only benefict bots... you just can't let go of your pessimism. Now while giving SP on missions would be cool, it doesn't address the problems they are trying to solve with this system.
Funny you mention that. I have raised concerns that allowing carriers use gates would be negating the cyno jammers effectiveness, but I didn't think it would ruin nullsec.
Getting rid of clone upgrades completely is one of the worst changes CCP has made in EVE. While I completely understand the rationale and agree that the old mechanic was pretty bad, removing consequences from dying was a big mistake. Yes, the old mechanic did not provide any meaningful choice, it was just a stupid thing you had to do every time you got podded. Still, in a game like EVE (where the CEO himself has stated several times that "Death is a serious matter" was the first line that was written about the game) completely removing consequences from the literal death was a betrayal of everything it stands for. If they didn't bother to spend some time and energy to work on something this fundamental, it begs the question does CCP even know what EVE is about?
I will give you that, I am pretty pessimistic. I guess you could call me a bitter vet. But this pessimism doesn't stem from "I had to warp to gates at 15km, both ways, with rats and pirates on each side." It comes from years of experience and disappointment with CCP's lack of loyalty to its players and it's lack of respect for the core values of EVE. These are the things that got EVE and CCP to where they are today and they have been under constant attack since Incarna.
This proposal caters to instant gratification sort of players. Those players will never work out in EVE anyway. It is not the kind of game for them. At the same time it annoys and demoralizes the core players. Those who play EVE seriously spend days, weeks, months and even years planning, building, destroying, in other words creating content. The very content that brings people in and keeps them in this game. Those players get fatigued by all these changes that don't align with EVE and that in turns leads to them burning out, losing interest and not spending the energy on creating content. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
284
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 07:40:55 -
[4713] - Quote
AngelFood wrote:Doomchinchilla wrote:ISK for SP, this is what happens when we let people that haven't played EVE for greater than 2 years onto the CSM. How can this even be remotely considered a good idea?
Not once have vets ever seriously thought this was a good idea. This is just bad. Just 100% bad. Csm? you mean devs right? Yes this is what happens when you let stream popular players or super alliance popular players become devs.
All but one CSM were vehemently against this idea so don't pin this on them, per usual CCP is very good at having very bad ideas and the CSM tries to keep them from doing dumb ****, this time however CCP refused to listen to reason.
It's clown devs with either an agenda or simply lacking a solid understanding on the game, that and of course some lunatic making more "no fear" internal memos. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1489
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 08:21:47 -
[4714] - Quote
I agree with the change. CCP is right with the SP penalty, without it only the rich veterans would use this.
This feature should be aimed towards new players and low SP characters.
The Tears Must Flow
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 09:21:33 -
[4715] - Quote
AngelFood wrote:Doomchinchilla wrote:ISK for SP, this is what happens when we let people that haven't played EVE for greater than 2 years onto the CSM. How can this even be remotely considered a good idea?
Not once have vets ever seriously thought this was a good idea. This is just bad. Just 100% bad. Csm? you mean devs right? Yes this is what happens when you let stream popular players or super alliance popular players become devs.
Thats why CSM had so massive kneejerk reaction
Steve Ronuken wrote: CCP did talk with the CSM about this, before all of you saw this.
They are become offended and then they wanted to show a power to CCP above community. |
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 09:50:28 -
[4716] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Havenard wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:I think the simpleton is in your mirror, since I was describing an arms race.
"I want to buy skills to compete" is useless when the competitors also can buy them and have the expertise and experience to invest their money better than you. Yeah, sure, arms race. I'm sure someone will pick you, as individual, and train exclusively things that counter you (there must be a lot). And this guy is a rich veteran, that for some reason doesn't already have skills to fly whatever he wants trained, he needs to buy a lot of SP tokens for that. Yeah, looks like a very realistic scenario to me. Allegedly, "Noobs" want skills to compete with "vets" but "vets" also could buy them if they need to and nullify the skills bought by "noobs". Who is talking about me? Lo que la naturaleza no da, Salamanca no lo presta...
Then it is nice that skills are hardcapped in EVE. So when both the newbie and the veteran have all skills affecing one type of ship maxed at V they are on equal grounds(sp wise). So it is indeed not a arms race, as it ends at level V. Arms races keep escalating pr defenition.
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2296
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 09:54:29 -
[4717] - Quote
sero Hita wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Havenard wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:I think the simpleton is in your mirror, since I was describing an arms race.
"I want to buy skills to compete" is useless when the competitors also can buy them and have the expertise and experience to invest their money better than you. Yeah, sure, arms race. I'm sure someone will pick you, as individual, and train exclusively things that counter you (there must be a lot). And this guy is a rich veteran, that for some reason doesn't already have skills to fly whatever he wants trained, he needs to buy a lot of SP tokens for that. Yeah, looks like a very realistic scenario to me. Allegedly, "Noobs" want skills to compete with "vets" but "vets" also could buy them if they need to and nullify the skills bought by "noobs". Who is talking about me? Lo que la naturaleza no da, Salamanca no lo presta... Then it is nice that skills are hardcapped in EVE. So when both the newbie and the veteran have all skills affecing one type of ship maxed at V they are on equal grounds(sp wise). So it is indeed not a arms race, as it ends at level V. Arms races keep escalating pr defenition.
Not empty quoting. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 10:18:51 -
[4718] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:
So if the Vets, and moderatly skilled use there skillpoints to create alts or to boost exisitng, your example is then flipped, Newbro's have no experience, no skills and the vets have more skills on more characters, experience and the newbro's are sitting wondering WTF is happening.
Levi Belvar wrote: you either need to goto bed or shut your yammering you have no clue about what im talking about here obviously.
|
Dave Stark
7752
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 10:42:14 -
[4719] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:So if the Vets, and moderatly skilled use there skillpoints to create alts or to boost exisitng, your example is then flipped, Newbro's have no experience, no skills and the vets have more skills on more characters, experience and the newbro's are sitting wondering WTF is happening.
that's no different to the situation we're in now. most vets already have a myriad of characters with a range of skills. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
107
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 10:56:49 -
[4720] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:So if the Vets, and moderatly skilled use there skillpoints to create alts or to boost exisitng, your example is then flipped, Newbro's have no experience, no skills and the vets have more skills on more characters, experience and the newbro's are sitting wondering WTF is happening. that's no different to the situation we're in now. most vets already have a myriad of characters with a range of skills.
Dave, that proposal i put forward of CCP doing it instead of it being player governed still retains its diminishing returns. It then benefits those who need it more than older characters. Its not something i want at all, but if something has to be implimented then shouldnt it be for the specific groups and not all who could exploit it. |
|
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
29
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 11:01:06 -
[4721] - Quote
Octoven wrote:
...
The other side to this is money, many may think, why should a player buy SPs with real cash? I should remind you that you are already doing that right now as we speak. Yes, subscription cost comes with many perks like playing the game, accessing the forums, and such. However, the real value in the $15/month is in the skill training. How many have left their accounts subbed whilst they took a break from EvE to simply keep skills being trained? SPs already = money, this option is just allowing you to advance it in incremental burst.
.... + CCP gets paid twice and more per SP in the future, by making it a commodity and thats where the idea comes from in the first place....again, its not about helping beginners or something, its a cash move and if the bait works this time, I am absolutely sure, it pushes the door more open, to even more microtransactions in the future.
... You want to participate in FW. Here is an FW license for AUR, you want to be immune against wardec, here is a Peace Decree, it only costs x AUR....
Where does it end.....?
I don't want this to happen with my favorite game.... |
Dave Stark
7753
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 11:07:14 -
[4722] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:So if the Vets, and moderatly skilled use there skillpoints to create alts or to boost exisitng, your example is then flipped, Newbro's have no experience, no skills and the vets have more skills on more characters, experience and the newbro's are sitting wondering WTF is happening. that's no different to the situation we're in now. most vets already have a myriad of characters with a range of skills. Dave, that proposal i put forward of CCP doing it instead of it being player governed still retains its diminishing returns. It then benefits those who need it more than older characters. Its not something i want at all, but if something has to be implimented then shouldnt it be for the specific groups and not all who could exploit it.
can you please stop pretending that big alliances don't already have every type of pilot they need. it's honestly getting boring listening to you and the other people bleating "exploited by veterans".
people like goonswarm, the older veterans in PL, the long time players in what used to be the n3 coalition (wherever they ended up) all have all the pilots they need with all the skills they need.
the game has been out 12 years. between 12 years of skill training and however long the char bazaar has been operating more SP for these people is basically a total irrelevance. they already have a character with perfect skills for every activity they need.
the character bazaar is one of the best things eve has for new players - i'll paraphrase the mittani "a new player can level up to the level of their intelligence as soon as they start the game" ~ that is from the meta show at the end of September when he had sort dragon on as a guest and they were discussing the new SP boost for new characters. why are we hiding such a feature away from the people who benefit from it most? |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 11:09:47 -
[4723] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: who could exploit it. Repeat after me: who could use it... use ....it .... use it. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 11:10:41 -
[4724] - Quote
Saelyth wrote:Dror wrote: Honestly, though, that could be said about any game where paying real money for an advantage. It may not effect you, but there's the whole law of large numbers. Enough purchases equals an abundance of advantages.
What are these advantages that presumably don't already exist in another fashion (character bazaar)? Specific mains of any type. It honestly undermines the whole of SP -- not that it's a great deterrent now, nor a great progression system.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 11:13:17 -
[4725] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:This proposal caters to instant gratification sort of players. Those players will never work out in EVE anyway. It is not the kind of game for them. At the same time it annoys and demoralizes the core players. Why would this "annoy and demoralise" core players? If "instant gratification" players flood into EVE, boost their characters with SP packets, fly around cluelessly in bling ships, and get blown to pieces over and over again until they leave - just what exactly is the problem?
Is it that you cannot handle the entertainment? Is it that you cannot stand CCP making money? Are you opposed to having large numbers of logins showing in your launcher window?
If there are players who cannot deal with EVE in the long run, but who through this feature will spend tons of cash on this game in the ultimately mistaken idea that they can pay to win - then how please is that not great for everybody but them?
As you say, they will be gone sooner or later anyway. But this will make them leave later, and in the meantime they pay CCP's server bills and provide you with endless hours of pew-pew entertainment (and a source for ISK, those skill packets and bling ships have to come from somewhere).
The supposed influx of EVE-incompatible players is at worst irrelevant, at best highly beneficial to everybody else. There is only one thing that is worth discussing here as far as core play goes:
This feature would ultimately increase the number of "up to about 30M SP" players and alts in game, and I mean players and alts that are EVE-compatible enough to be around for quite some time. Furthermore, these players and alts would have their SP "better tuned" to specific aims. So basically, you will get an increase in low to medium, but properly, SP-trained players in EVE.
Now, are you for that or against that, as far as "core play" goes? I have a hard time seeing how this can negatively affect vets, unless perhaps if they have grown accustomed to shooting low SP fish in a space barrel. |
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
29
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 11:16:35 -
[4726] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
the character bazaar is one of the best things eve has for new players - i'll paraphrase the mittani "a new player can level up to the level of their intelligence as soon as they start the game" ~ that is from the meta show at the end of September when he had sort dragon on as a guest and they were discussing the new SP boost for new characters. why are we hiding such a feature away from the people who benefit from it most?
If you really think, one of the best things for Beginners in EvE, is the ability to buy a high level character on the bazaar, then something with the game is completely wrong. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 11:18:34 -
[4727] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:[quote=Havenard][quote=Niko Lorenzio]This proposal caters to instant gratification sort of players. This statement always shows a complete lack of a clue.
Please show us the game design or psychology research where this type of demographic is even stated.. much less than studied or implemented.
Motivation is pretty unbiased. Every game demographic enjoys feeling great. If paying a bunch of money does or doesn't do that for them probably has more to do with their disposable income and how much of the game they can experience before getting bored of a supposed sandbox MMO that limits its gameplay for microtransactions.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
107
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 11:32:33 -
[4728] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:So if the Vets, and moderatly skilled use there skillpoints to create alts or to boost exisitng, your example is then flipped, Newbro's have no experience, no skills and the vets have more skills on more characters, experience and the newbro's are sitting wondering WTF is happening. that's no different to the situation we're in now. most vets already have a myriad of characters with a range of skills. Dave, that proposal i put forward of CCP doing it instead of it being player governed still retains its diminishing returns. It then benefits those who need it more than older characters. Its not something i want at all, but if something has to be implimented then shouldnt it be for the specific groups and not all who could exploit it. can you please stop pretending that big alliances don't already have every type of pilot they need. it's honestly getting boring listening to you and the other people bleating "exploited by veterans". people like goonswarm, the older veterans in PL, the long time players in what used to be the n3 coalition (wherever they ended up) all have all the pilots they need with all the skills they need. the game has been out 12 years. between 12 years of skill training and however long the char bazaar has been operating more SP for these people is basically a total irrelevance. they already have a character with perfect skills for every activity they need. the character bazaar is one of the best things eve has for new players - i'll paraphrase the mittani "a new player can level up to the level of their intelligence as soon as they start the game" ~ that is from the meta show at the end of September when he had sort dragon on as a guest and they were discussing the new SP boost for new characters. why are we hiding such a feature away from the people who benefit from it most?
I said all who could exploit it, i dont need lists of corps nor alliances or quotes.Why does it need to be player orientated over CCP, If it was for customization purposes only then they would just give us the ability to remap our skills once a year same with looks / race. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 11:36:22 -
[4729] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:So if the Vets, and moderatly skilled use there skillpoints to create alts or to boost exisitng, your example is then flipped, Newbro's have no experience, no skills and the vets have more skills on more characters, experience and the newbro's are sitting wondering WTF is happening. that's no different to the situation we're in now. most vets already have a myriad of characters with a range of skills. Dave, that proposal i put forward of CCP doing it instead of it being player governed still retains its diminishing returns. It then benefits those who need it more than older characters. Its not something i want at all, but if something has to be implimented then shouldnt it be for the specific groups and not all who could exploit it. can you please stop pretending that big alliances don't already have every type of pilot they need. it's honestly getting boring listening to you and the other people bleating "exploited by veterans". people like goonswarm, the older veterans in PL, the long time players in what used to be the n3 coalition (wherever they ended up) all have all the pilots they need with all the skills they need. the game has been out 12 years. between 12 years of skill training and however long the char bazaar has been operating more SP for these people is basically a total irrelevance. they already have a character with perfect skills for every activity they need. the character bazaar is one of the best things eve has for new players - i'll paraphrase the mittani "a new player can level up to the level of their intelligence as soon as they start the game" ~ that is from the meta show at the end of September when he had sort dragon on as a guest and they were discussing the new SP boost for new characters. why are we hiding such a feature away from the people who benefit from it most? I said all who could exploit it, i dont need lists of corps nor alliances or quotes.Why does it need to be player orientated over CCP, If it was for customization purposes only then they would just give us the ability to remap our skills once a year same with looks / race. You overestimate the ability of SP to keep subs interested. The trend is that they're trying to increase sub retention, through the starter SP increase.. and now the idea of purchasing SP on the market.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 11:36:49 -
[4730] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:So if the Vets, and moderatly skilled use there skillpoints to create alts or to boost exisitng, your example is then flipped, Newbro's have no experience, no skills and the vets have more skills on more characters, experience and the newbro's are sitting wondering WTF is happening. that's no different to the situation we're in now. most vets already have a myriad of characters with a range of skills. Dave, that proposal i put forward of CCP doing it instead of it being player governed still retains its diminishing returns. It then benefits those who need it more than older characters. Its not something i want at all, but if something has to be implimented then shouldnt it be for the specific groups and not all who could exploit it. can you please stop pretending that big alliances don't already have every type of pilot they need. it's honestly getting boring listening to you and the other people bleating "exploited by veterans". people like goonswarm, the older veterans in PL, the long time players in what used to be the n3 coalition (wherever they ended up) all have all the pilots they need with all the skills they need. the game has been out 12 years. between 12 years of skill training and however long the char bazaar has been operating more SP for these people is basically a total irrelevance. they already have a character with perfect skills for every activity they need. the character bazaar is one of the best things eve has for new players - i'll paraphrase the mittani "a new player can level up to the level of their intelligence as soon as they start the game" ~ that is from the meta show at the end of September when he had sort dragon on as a guest and they were discussing the new SP boost for new characters. why are we hiding such a feature away from the people who benefit from it most? I said all who could exploit it, i dont need lists of corps nor alliances or quotes.Why does it need to be player orientated over CCP, If it was for customization purposes only then they would just give us the ability to remap our skills once a year same with looks / race. Not in this year. You was a very bad boy.... VERY.
|
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
108
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 11:46:03 -
[4731] - Quote
Dror wrote:You overestimate the ability of SP to keep subs interested. The trend is that they're trying to increase sub retention, through the starter SP increase.. and now the idea of purchasing SP on the market.
Dror, You manipulated facts to fit your theories, You stated 1 game then 10,so lied to make your science fit unsubstaniated facts. Your words are just that and mean very little. Dave on the other hand is driven for some purpose and i'm just trying to understand whats different between player over CCP. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 12:09:00 -
[4732] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:You overestimate the ability of SP to keep subs interested. The trend is that they're trying to increase sub retention, through the starter SP increase.. and now the idea of purchasing SP on the market. Dror, You manipulated facts to fit your theories, You stated 1 game then 10,so lied to make your science fit unsubstaniated facts. Your words are just that and mean very little. Dave on the other hand is driven for some purpose and i'm just trying to understand whats different between player over CCP. How can you judge a theory without understanding it? If you understood it, couldn't you refute it?
Motivation is simple. Again, if you're implying that SP is some feature that attracts whole crews of fresh subs, you have a lot to evidence.
As for what was stated about the research? Did you actually read the report that was linked? It very clearly stated that the study was about a single game. Then, you fabricated the game that it was about. So, you obviously didn't read the research? Then you're just posting tripe.
At what point does the "CCP selling SP" idea max out per character?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Dave Stark
7753
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 12:17:25 -
[4733] - Quote
Vahligmarr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
the character bazaar is one of the best things eve has for new players - i'll paraphrase the mittani "a new player can level up to the level of their intelligence as soon as they start the game" ~ that is from the meta show at the end of September when he had sort dragon on as a guest and they were discussing the new SP boost for new characters. why are we hiding such a feature away from the people who benefit from it most?
If you really think, one of the best things for Beginners in EvE, is the ability to buy a high level character on the bazaar, then something with the game is completely wrong.
if i think new players being able to get in to aspects of the game that they enjoy instantly is good for the game then the game is wrong?
right... ok... |
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
32
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 12:27:32 -
[4734] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Vahligmarr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
the character bazaar is one of the best things eve has for new players - i'll paraphrase the mittani "a new player can level up to the level of their intelligence as soon as they start the game" ~ that is from the meta show at the end of September when he had sort dragon on as a guest and they were discussing the new SP boost for new characters. why are we hiding such a feature away from the people who benefit from it most?
If you really think, one of the best things for Beginners in EvE, is the ability to buy a high level character on the bazaar, then something with the game is completely wrong. if i think new players being able to get in to aspects of the game that they enjoy instantly is good for the game then the game is wrong? right... ok...
If this "enjoyment" is linked to "if you want to have an advancement over others with patience, just pay extra, and you can have it instantly" then YES |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 12:28:10 -
[4735] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Vahligmarr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
the character bazaar is one of the best things eve has for new players - i'll paraphrase the mittani "a new player can level up to the level of their intelligence as soon as they start the game" ~ that is from the meta show at the end of September when he had sort dragon on as a guest and they were discussing the new SP boost for new characters. why are we hiding such a feature away from the people who benefit from it most?
If you really think, one of the best things for Beginners in EvE, is the ability to buy a high level character on the bazaar, then something with the game is completely wrong. if i think new players being able to get in to aspects of the game that they enjoy instantly is good for the game then the game is wrong? right... ok... It seems what that post is saying is that fresh subs meeting an almost-instant paywall in a sub game is probably a pretty low quality experience.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Dave Stark
7753
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 12:33:28 -
[4736] - Quote
Dror wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Vahligmarr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
the character bazaar is one of the best things eve has for new players - i'll paraphrase the mittani "a new player can level up to the level of their intelligence as soon as they start the game" ~ that is from the meta show at the end of September when he had sort dragon on as a guest and they were discussing the new SP boost for new characters. why are we hiding such a feature away from the people who benefit from it most?
If you really think, one of the best things for Beginners in EvE, is the ability to buy a high level character on the bazaar, then something with the game is completely wrong. if i think new players being able to get in to aspects of the game that they enjoy instantly is good for the game then the game is wrong? right... ok... It seems what that post is saying is that fresh subs meeting an almost-instant paywall in a sub game is probably a pretty low quality experience.
good job nothing is, or will be, behind a paywall. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 12:35:25 -
[4737] - Quote
Vahligmarr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Vahligmarr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
the character bazaar is one of the best things eve has for new players - i'll paraphrase the mittani "a new player can level up to the level of their intelligence as soon as they start the game" ~ that is from the meta show at the end of September when he had sort dragon on as a guest and they were discussing the new SP boost for new characters. why are we hiding such a feature away from the people who benefit from it most?
If you really think, one of the best things for Beginners in EvE, is the ability to buy a high level character on the bazaar, then something with the game is completely wrong. if i think new players being able to get in to aspects of the game that they enjoy instantly is good for the game then the game is wrong? right... ok... If this "enjoyment" is linked to "if you want to have an advancement over others with patience, just pay extra, and you can have it instantly" then YES experience>skill points |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
108
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 12:37:36 -
[4738] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Dror wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Vahligmarr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
the character bazaar is one of the best things eve has for new players - i'll paraphrase the mittani "a new player can level up to the level of their intelligence as soon as they start the game" ~ that is from the meta show at the end of September when he had sort dragon on as a guest and they were discussing the new SP boost for new characters. why are we hiding such a feature away from the people who benefit from it most?
If you really think, one of the best things for Beginners in EvE, is the ability to buy a high level character on the bazaar, then something with the game is completely wrong. if i think new players being able to get in to aspects of the game that they enjoy instantly is good for the game then the game is wrong? right... ok... It seems what that post is saying is that fresh subs meeting an almost-instant paywall in a sub game is probably a pretty low quality experience. good job nothing is, or will be, behind a paywall.
But bazaar toons are behind a paywall are they not, so to come back to Players or CCP.
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 12:39:05 -
[4739] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Dror wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Vahligmarr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
the character bazaar is one of the best things eve has for new players - i'll paraphrase the mittani "a new player can level up to the level of their intelligence as soon as they start the game" ~ that is from the meta show at the end of September when he had sort dragon on as a guest and they were discussing the new SP boost for new characters. why are we hiding such a feature away from the people who benefit from it most?
If you really think, one of the best things for Beginners in EvE, is the ability to buy a high level character on the bazaar, then something with the game is completely wrong. if i think new players being able to get in to aspects of the game that they enjoy instantly is good for the game then the game is wrong? right... ok... It seems what that post is saying is that fresh subs meeting an almost-instant paywall in a sub game is probably a pretty low quality experience. good job nothing is, or will be, behind a paywall. What about literally everything that can't be trained in a starter sub? SP is a paywall.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 12:45:17 -
[4740] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: Players or CCP.
No CCP -> No EVE -> No Players |
|
Dave Stark
7753
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 13:12:04 -
[4741] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:But bazaar toons are behind a paywall are they not, so to come back to Players or CCP.
no, you don't have to pay any real life cash to obtain a character from the bazaar. |
Jadon Wallace
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 13:12:54 -
[4742] - Quote
I got a suggestion for possible alternatives to this, why don't CCP make it so characters start out with no SP and then when someone goes to create there character they get the option of picking a specific skillset/career path that interests them (after being prompted to watch videos on each type of said 'career' path) where x amount of skillpoints is placed in the desired area? Eases entry for new players and it would seem to be a better method than what is being proposed here. |
Dave Stark
7753
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 13:14:07 -
[4743] - Quote
Dror wrote:What about literally everything that can't be trained in a starter sub? SP is a paywall.
i'm not going to explain what a trial is. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 13:18:56 -
[4744] - Quote
Jadon Wallace wrote:I got a suggestion for possible alternatives to this, why don't CCP make it so characters start out with no SP and then when someone goes to create there character they get the option of picking a specific skillset/career path that interests them (after being prompted to watch videos on each type of said 'career' path) where x amount of skillpoints is placed in the desired area? Eases entry for new players and it would seem to be a better method than what is being proposed here. Skills without effort not what I want. |
Eli Depran
Deep Space Conquest
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 13:19:03 -
[4745] - Quote
I still think CCP is grabbing for way too much real cash, it's getting obnoxious. There are so many other things that need to be worked on. Why not make a compromise and allow a remap of skills, with some strict limitations, and add something to the game that is usable by anyone. A big mistake the majority of new players make and what I made many times is spreading skill points all over the place. If you want to keep people interested, I assure you that people like to try various things at first, then later decide on what they really want to do, and then regret completely unfocused skills all over the place. They very well get disheartened, and then either quit, or make a new character and try to focus skills better, or buy a character. Most often I believe that people get disheartened and unsubscribe. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
109
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 13:20:43 -
[4746] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:But bazaar toons are behind a paywall are they not, so to come back to Players or CCP.
no, you don't have to pay any real life cash to obtain a character from the bazaar.
So an newbro Just finds the isk to pay for a 80 mill sp character then, Point me in the direction of this isk cashpoint its a feature ive not come across, seeing as your advocating that 80 is about right to access everything in game.
Still does not explain players over CCP.
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 13:26:56 -
[4747] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:But bazaar toons are behind a paywall are they not, so to come back to Players or CCP.
no, you don't have to pay any real life cash to obtain a character from the bazaar. There's money paid, both for that SP and the transfer.
Also, time is money.
Dror wrote:Protip: the demographic that enjoys paying the equivalent of hundreds of dollars just to enjoy an MMO is a tiny minority.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Dave Stark
7753
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 13:29:21 -
[4748] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:But bazaar toons are behind a paywall are they not, so to come back to Players or CCP.
no, you don't have to pay any real life cash to obtain a character from the bazaar. So an newbro Just finds the isk to pay for a 80 mill sp character then, Point me in the direction of this isk cashpoint its a feature ive not come across, seeing as your advocating that 80 is about right to access everything in game. Still does not explain players over CCP.
yes, that is the alternative. a thing many players do. |
Dave Stark
7753
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 13:30:06 -
[4749] - Quote
Dror wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:But bazaar toons are behind a paywall are they not, so to come back to Players or CCP.
no, you don't have to pay any real life cash to obtain a character from the bazaar. There's money paid, both for that SP and the transfer. Also, time is money. Dror wrote:Protip: the demographic that enjoys paying the equivalent of hundreds of dollars just to enjoy an MMO is a tiny minority.
where, in the process of buying a character or buying sp under the new system, do i need to pay any real life money? |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 13:41:02 -
[4750] - Quote
Eli Depran wrote:I still think CCP is grabbing for way too much real cash, it's getting obnoxious. There are so many other things that need to be worked on. Why not make a compromise and allow a remap of skills, with some strict limitations, and add something to the game that is usable by anyone. A big mistake the majority of new players make and what I made many times is spreading skill points all over the place. If you want to keep people interested, I assure you that people like to try various things at first, then later decide on what they really want to do, and then regret completely unfocused skills all over the place. They very well get disheartened, and then either quit, or make a new character and try to focus skills better, or buy a character. Most often I believe that people get disheartened and unsubscribe. You must be missing some pages of thread and I understand why. Dev blog
Quote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. Many people who against this idea are whining about that consequences are not important anymore but it is not the case.
|
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
109
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 13:42:06 -
[4751] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:But bazaar toons are behind a paywall are they not, so to come back to Players or CCP.
no, you don't have to pay any real life cash to obtain a character from the bazaar. So an newbro Just finds the isk to pay for a 80 mill sp character then, Point me in the direction of this isk cashpoint its a feature ive not come across, seeing as your advocating that 80 is about right to access everything in game. Still does not explain players over CCP. yes, that is the alternative. a thing many players do.
So you just go back to dodging questions, you have no valid reason, and again its still does not answer why players over CCP?
|
Dave Stark
7753
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 13:46:03 -
[4752] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:But bazaar toons are behind a paywall are they not, so to come back to Players or CCP.
no, you don't have to pay any real life cash to obtain a character from the bazaar. So an newbro Just finds the isk to pay for a 80 mill sp character then, Point me in the direction of this isk cashpoint its a feature ive not come across, seeing as your advocating that 80 is about right to access everything in game. Still does not explain players over CCP. yes, that is the alternative. a thing many players do. So you just go back to dodging questions, you have no valid reason, and again its still does not answer why players over CCP?
are you genuinely illiterate?
i didn't dodge your question. you asked if they were meant to just obtain the isk to purchase a character; i said they do. i said that's already what they do do.
honestly, learn to read. the only reason this thread is this long is because people have to explain things to you again and again because you simply do not understand english. i'm aware it's probably not your first language however you're not contributing anything to the discussion when you cannot understand that which is being discussed. |
Eli Depran
Deep Space Conquest
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 13:47:19 -
[4753] - Quote
Dev blog
Quote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point.
Agreed, but what I mean by strict limitations, would be something similar to attribute remaps, not something that can be done rapidly. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 13:48:23 -
[4754] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Dror wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:But bazaar toons are behind a paywall are they not, so to come back to Players or CCP.
no, you don't have to pay any real life cash to obtain a character from the bazaar. There's money paid, both for that SP and the transfer. Also, time is money. Dror wrote:Protip: the demographic that enjoys paying the equivalent of hundreds of dollars just to enjoy an MMO is a tiny minority. where, in the process of buying a character or buying sp under the new system, do i need to pay any real life money? ..About the point that doing repetitive things for making some 10B becomes uninteresting.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Dave Stark
7753
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 13:51:00 -
[4755] - Quote
Dror wrote:..About the point that doing repetitive things for making some 10B becomes uninteresting.
so we've established that buying characters isn't behind a paywall, fantastic. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
109
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 13:53:31 -
[4756] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i didn't dodge your question. you asked if they were meant to just obtain the isk to purchase a character; i said they do. i said that's already what they do do.. From where ???
Dave Stark wrote:honestly, learn to read. the only reason this thread is this long is because people have to explain things to you again and again because you simply do not understand english. i'm aware it's probably not your first language however you're not contributing anything to the discussion when you cannot understand that which is being discussed. I dont see anything about Player over CCP
Sorry your fogged glasses are blinding you to the questions you have still yet to answer. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 13:53:39 -
[4757] - Quote
Eli Depran wrote:Dev blog Quote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. Agreed, but what I mean by strict limitations, would be something similar to attribute remaps, not something that can be done rapidly. Maybe because attribute remaping is a thing what already exist and it's not helping much?
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
109
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 13:54:44 -
[4758] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Dror wrote:..About the point that doing repetitive things for making some 10B becomes uninteresting. so we've established that buying characters isn't behind a paywall, fantastic.
Really ???
|
Dave Stark
7754
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 13:57:41 -
[4759] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:so we've established that buying characters isn't behind a paywall, fantastic. Really ??? yes. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
137
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:04:10 -
[4760] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Vahligmarr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
the character bazaar is one of the best things eve has for new players - i'll paraphrase the mittani "a new player can level up to the level of their intelligence as soon as they start the game" ~ that is from the meta show at the end of September when he had sort dragon on as a guest and they were discussing the new SP boost for new characters. why are we hiding such a feature away from the people who benefit from it most?
If you really think, one of the best things for Beginners in EvE, is the ability to buy a high level character on the bazaar, then something with the game is completely wrong. if i think new players being able to get in to aspects of the game that they enjoy instantly is good for the game then the game is wrong? right... ok...
I think it is actually great thing. Pity that we cannot expect many of them to do it from the start as not many will spend cash to buy plexes in order to get on the "enjoyable and fun" stage of the game without being sure they want to commit to it.
And those which get to the point that they can make billions will either buy higher sp chars of the bazaar or get used to be patient. I doubt many of those who want to speed up fun will like diminishing returns as they will not 5mil sp enough probably :D
You work today as well Dave?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
110
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:04:12 -
[4761] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:so we've established that buying characters isn't behind a paywall, fantastic. Really ??? yes.
so this newbro character that has no skills to access any content can either magically find 45 billion isk or they go to CCP and buy the plex to swap to isk to buy the character.
So thats your definition of not being behind a paywall? |
Dave Stark
7754
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:07:33 -
[4762] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:You work today as well Dave?
No rest for the wicked. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
137
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:08:30 -
[4763] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:You work today as well Dave? No rest for the wicked.
No comment on first part of my comment?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7754
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:08:33 -
[4764] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:so we've established that buying characters isn't behind a paywall, fantastic. Really ??? yes. so this newbro character that has no skills to access any content can either magically find 45 billion isk or they go to CCP and buy the plex to swap to isk to buy the character. So thats your definition of not being behind a paywall?
paywalls aren't related to player income. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
111
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:11:37 -
[4765] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:so we've established that buying characters isn't behind a paywall, fantastic. Really ??? yes. so this newbro character that has no skills to access any content can either magically find 45 billion isk or they go to CCP and buy the plex to swap to isk to buy the character. So thats your definition of not being behind a paywall? paywalls aren't related to player income. They have no income theyre new - You lot have just spent the last 150 pages saying that new player need equality because theyre so restricted on content. Make your mind up.
Still does answer players over CCP either. |
Dave Stark
7754
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:12:42 -
[4766] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:You work today as well Dave? No rest for the wicked. No comment on first part of my comment?
if you didn't shut up after the first time some one pointed out you were wrong like 100 pages ago. what difference will it make me telling you how wrong you are?
at least the other guy has the excuse of not understanding english very well. |
Dave Stark
7754
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:14:43 -
[4767] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:They have no income theyre new - You lot have just spent the last 150 pages saying that new player need equality because theyre so restricted on content. Make your mind up.
Still does answer players over CCP either.
i recommend you watch the meta show from the end of september - the leader of goonswarm explains very easily how players who have just started the game can get enough isk to purchase a character from the bazaar. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
111
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:18:09 -
[4768] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:They have no income theyre new - You lot have just spent the last 150 pages saying that new player need equality because theyre so restricted on content. Make your mind up.
Still does answer players over CCP either. i recommend you watch the meta show from the end of september - the leader of goonswarm explains very easily how players who have just started the game can get enough isk to purchase a character from the bazaar. Now back to pointless quotes and again no answer to players over CCP. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
111
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:20:05 -
[4769] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:You work today as well Dave? No rest for the wicked. No comment on first part of my comment? if you didn't shut up after the first time some one pointed out you were wrong like 100 pages ago. what difference will it make me telling you how wrong you are? at least the other guy has the excuse of not understanding english very well.
Dror the guy comparing EvE to wow, runescape and everquest stirling examples and had a truck drove through his arguement. |
Dave stark
7755
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:22:55 -
[4770] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:You work today as well Dave? No rest for the wicked. No comment on first part of my comment? if you didn't shut up after the first time some one pointed out you were wrong like 100 pages ago. what difference will it make me telling you how wrong you are? at least the other guy has the excuse of not understanding english very well. Dror the guy comparing EvE to wow, runescape and everquest stirling examples and had a truck drove through his arguement.
i'm not surprised. that's generally what happens when you compare apples to oranges. |
|
Eli Depran
Deep Space Conquest
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:27:38 -
[4771] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Eli Depran wrote:Dev blog Quote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. Agreed, but what I mean by strict limitations, would be something similar to attribute remaps, not something that can be done rapidly. Maybe because attribute remaping is a thing what already exist and it doesn't help much?
I'm talking about a system with limitations similar to attribute remaps, but applied to respecs if implemented, so they are still a very important choice.
Attribute remaps themselves are very important, and can make a big impact, to the effect that it greatly increases the value of a character on the bazaar. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
138
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:30:14 -
[4772] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:You work today as well Dave? No rest for the wicked. No comment on first part of my comment? if you didn't shut up after the first time some one pointed out you were wrong like 100 pages ago. what difference will it make me telling you how wrong you are? at least the other guy has the excuse of not understanding english very well.
If you didn`t shut up after the first time someone pointed out you are just dodging and avoiding questions like 100 pages ago. What difference will it make me telling you what a trolling, manipulative spinner you are? :D Still I enjoy doing it time after time
Thanks for having consistency of not being able to provide counter arguments through this long thread.
Also, thanks for being with us for 200 pages, spending countless hours for something which is "of no importance" to you
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave stark
7755
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:33:24 -
[4773] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:You work today as well Dave? No rest for the wicked. No comment on first part of my comment? if you didn't shut up after the first time some one pointed out you were wrong like 100 pages ago. what difference will it make me telling you how wrong you are? at least the other guy has the excuse of not understanding english very well. If you didn`t shut up after the first time someone pointed out you are just dodging and avoiding questions like 100 pages ago. What difference will it make me telling you what a trolling, manipulative spinner you are? :D Still I enjoy doing it time after time Thanks for having consistency of not being able to provide counter arguments through this long thread. Also, thanks for being with us for 200 pages, spending countless hours for something which is "of no importance" to you
although as shown throughout every time i "dodged a question" it was by answering the question. i had to explain my answers 5 times since it seems everyone in the "omg the sky is falling" camp doesn't quite understand how words work.
counter arguments were provided pages ago, i'm just too lazy to type it all out again. honestly. you youngsters have the energy for repetition, i'm getting old.
just because it isn't important doesn't mean it isn't interesting. sports aren't important yet millions of people spend millions if not billions of hours watching it - because they find it interesting. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:39:03 -
[4774] - Quote
Eli Depran wrote:General Lootit wrote:Eli Depran wrote:Dev blog Quote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. Agreed, but what I mean by strict limitations, would be something similar to attribute remaps, not something that can be done rapidly. Maybe because attribute remaping is a thing what already exist and it doesn't help much? I'm talking about a system with limitations similar to attribute remaps, but applied to respecs if implemented, so they are still a very important choice. Attribute remaps themselves are very important, and can make a big impact, to the effect that it greatly increases the value of a character on the bazaar. You need to consider that bazaar is issue by itself because it's violate EULA and misleading new players. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6857
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:48:00 -
[4775] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Eli Depran wrote:General Lootit wrote:Eli Depran wrote:Dev blog Quote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. Agreed, but what I mean by strict limitations, would be something similar to attribute remaps, not something that can be done rapidly. Maybe because attribute remaping is a thing what already exist and it doesn't help much? I'm talking about a system with limitations similar to attribute remaps, but applied to respecs if implemented, so they are still a very important choice. Attribute remaps themselves are very important, and can make a big impact, to the effect that it greatly increases the value of a character on the bazaar. You need to consider that bazaar is issue by itself because it's violate EULA and misleading new players. Oh snap, someone better let ccp know immediately, I saw something about that on the forums here
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
113
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:49:31 -
[4776] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Eli Depran wrote:General Lootit wrote:Eli Depran wrote:Dev blog Quote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. Agreed, but what I mean by strict limitations, would be something similar to attribute remaps, not something that can be done rapidly. Maybe because attribute remaping is a thing what already exist and it doesn't help much? I'm talking about a system with limitations similar to attribute remaps, but applied to respecs if implemented, so they are still a very important choice. Attribute remaps themselves are very important, and can make a big impact, to the effect that it greatly increases the value of a character on the bazaar. You need to consider that bazaar is issue by itself because it's violate EULA and misleading new players.
The bazaar was setup Lootit to prevent breaking the EULA, its the only place to buy and sell toons. It was done to stem the sale of CCP's property on ebay and other MMO auction sites , Using it is not a violation at all. |
Eli Depran
Deep Space Conquest
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:50:46 -
[4777] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Eli Depran wrote:General Lootit wrote:Eli Depran wrote:Dev blog Quote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. Agreed, but what I mean by strict limitations, would be something similar to attribute remaps, not something that can be done rapidly. Maybe because attribute remaping is a thing what already exist and it doesn't help much? I'm talking about a system with limitations similar to attribute remaps, but applied to respecs if implemented, so they are still a very important choice. Attribute remaps themselves are very important, and can make a big impact, to the effect that it greatly increases the value of a character on the bazaar. You need to consider that bazaar is issue by itself because it's violate EULA and misleading new players.
The EULA is stating that it's illegal to sell characters to somebody for real money, not for the trade of ISK through their own system. What they are saying is if you buy any in-game assets that they own, including characters, for real money outside of the game, or buy, that is breaking the EULA. The character bazaar is implemented by CCP themselves, and is entirely their own assets, as such does not break the EULA. |
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
741
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:57:53 -
[4778] - Quote
Havenard wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote:They are far from fantasy. I guess you haven't been around in EVE long enough to know just how crazy EVE players can be. This goes beyond those scenarios. I don't understand why simply giving out free SP for certain missions arcs or whatever is not better than this. You sound just like those guys saying that letting Carriers use gates would ruin nullsec, making clones free would only benefict gankers, and giving 400k SP for new chars would only benefict bots... you just can't let go of your pessimism. Now while giving SP on missions would be cool, it doesn't address the problems they are trying to solve with this system. What problem would that be? How to optimize it by charging in real currency twice for each SP packet. I think they have that covered.
Someone has to buy plex Someone has to buy Aurum = Win + Win for CCP.
Letting carriers use jump gates didn't ruin nulsec - It was ruined way before that - The mechanics behind letting carriers use jump gates only contributed to the problems in nulsec.
400k SP for new chars - Is not enough, the option to buy SP at high prices from existing players - Won't change much as far as the average new guy goes. 8 out of every 10 will quit when they find it is likely to cost them a few hundred dollars to buy enough SP to fly what they want. One will buy the plex to do it (and still lose ships hand over fist because he hasn't learned the fundamentals of the game) The other will just play the game and train up, buying the odd SP packet as he earns enough isk.
Meanwhile - Existing players have already outlaid isk or $ for Aurum to create the SP packets that may or may not sell.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
|
Ray P
State Protectorate Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 15:06:05 -
[4779] - Quote
1 month training = roughly 1.5mil skill points. so a toon farming them can make about 3 packs per month, based off plex prices the max it would cost is 400million, but because a toon farming skill points can still be useful in other ways I expect it will be a lot cheaper, probably somewhere around 250-300mil + cost of the extractor.
Nice passive income for indy alts/miners/traders/haulers/high skilled toons, and nice way for new players like me to drop a plex and get straight into pvp... can someone please explain to me who looses here? |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 15:17:51 -
[4780] - Quote
Eli Depran wrote: The EULA is stating that it's illegal to sell characters to somebody for real money, not for the trade of ISK through their own system. What they are saying is if you buy any in-game assets that they own, including characters, for real money outside of the game, or sell, that is breaking the EULA. The character bazaar is implemented by CCP themselves, and is entirely their own assets, as such does not break the EULA.
Yet still misleading new players. Anyway I think that in-game SP trading is much better than baazar because I can choose personality. |
|
Dave Stark
7758
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 15:28:29 -
[4781] - Quote
Ray P wrote:1 month training = roughly 1.5mil skill points. so a toon farming them can make about 3 packs per month, based off plex prices the max it would cost is 400million, but because a toon farming skill points can still be useful in other ways I expect it will be a lot cheaper, probably somewhere around 250-300mil + cost of the extractor.
Nice passive income for indy alts/miners/traders/haulers/high skilled toons, and nice way for new players like me to drop a plex and get straight into pvp... can someone please explain to me who looses here?
it's closer to 2m with a decent remap and +5s |
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
741
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 15:28:56 -
[4782] - Quote
Ray P wrote:1 month training = roughly 1.5mil skill points. so a toon farming them can make about 3 packs per month, based off plex prices the max it would cost is 400million, but because a toon farming skill points can still be useful in other ways I expect it will be a lot cheaper, probably somewhere around 250-300mil + cost of the extractor.
Nice passive income for indy alts/miners/traders/haulers/high skilled toons, and nice way for new players like me to drop a plex and get straight into pvp... can someone please explain to me who looses here? Greed is the primary motivator in Eve, the current break even cost for 500k SP is 300 mil, then you have the price of the extractor, say another 100 mil (probably more as CCP is looking at this as an additional income stream). So say 400 mil to create SP packet + profit - 500 to 600 mil, if there is a lot available (at 1st there is likely to be), once people realize it isn't really that profitable or they want to train for something themselves - The price will start to rise. Many hauling alts, indy alts and miners are just that, alts that are no longer being trained, Since plex prices have risen so much, many players have condensed characters into less accounts, meaning less accounts available to farm SP from. Yes those with multiple mining characters on individual accounts will be training something and may even sell the additional SP but you can be sure, they will want to profit from it, so prices aren't gong to be cheap.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6858
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 15:29:52 -
[4783] - Quote
Ray P wrote:1 month training = roughly 1.5mil skill points. so a toon farming them can make about 3 packs per month, based off plex prices the max it would cost is 400million, but because a toon farming skill points can still be useful in other ways I expect it will be a lot cheaper, probably somewhere around 250-300mil + cost of the extractor.
Nice passive income for indy alts/miners/traders/haulers/high skilled toons, and nice way for new players like me to drop a plex and get straight into pvp... can someone please explain to me who looses here? You, supposedly.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6858
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 15:31:42 -
[4784] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Ray P wrote:1 month training = roughly 1.5mil skill points. so a toon farming them can make about 3 packs per month, based off plex prices the max it would cost is 400million, but because a toon farming skill points can still be useful in other ways I expect it will be a lot cheaper, probably somewhere around 250-300mil + cost of the extractor.
Nice passive income for indy alts/miners/traders/haulers/high skilled toons, and nice way for new players like me to drop a plex and get straight into pvp... can someone please explain to me who looses here? Greed is the primary motivator in Eve, the current break even cost for 500k SP is 300 mil, then you have the price of the extractor, say another 100 mil (probably more as CCP is looking at this as an additional income stream). So say 400 mil to create SP packet + profit - 500 to 600 mil, if there is a lot available (at 1st there is likely to be), once people realize it isn't really that profitable or they want to train for something themselves - The price will start to rise. Many hauling alts, indy alts and miners are just that, alts that are no longer being trained, Since plex prices have risen so much, many players have condensed characters into less accounts, meaning less accounts available to farm SP from. Yes those with multiple mining characters on individual accounts will be training something and may even sell the additional SP but you can be sure, they will want to profit from it, so prices aren't gong to be cheap. The joy of player-driven markets
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 15:42:56 -
[4785] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:8 out of every 10 will quit when they find it is likely to cost them a few hundred dollars to buy enough SP to fly what they want. So, what's the alternative suggestion?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 15:44:08 -
[4786] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:I agree with the change. CCP is right with the SP penalty, without it only the rich veterans would use this.
This feature should be aimed towards new players and low SP characters.
Distinguishing between new players and new characters started by rich vets is impossible, rich vets can pay with vast amounts of isk, new players will pay with R/L cash, to think that vets are not going to abuse this system and push the price up is naive in the extreme.
|
Dave Stark
7760
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 15:46:06 -
[4787] - Quote
Dror wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:8 out of every 10 will quit when they find it is likely to cost them a few hundred dollars to buy enough SP to fly what they want. So, what's the alternative suggestion?
wait a few months/years until they can fly what they want. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 15:54:11 -
[4788] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Dror wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:8 out of every 10 will quit when they find it is likely to cost them a few hundred dollars to buy enough SP to fly what they want. So, what's the alternative suggestion? wait a few months/years until they can fly what they want. *Oh, how inspiring*
Edit: Also not the question, btw.. which is about suggestions alternative to this idea.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
742
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 15:57:33 -
[4789] - Quote
Dror wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:8 out of every 10 will quit when they find it is likely to cost them a few hundred dollars to buy enough SP to fly what they want. So, what's the alternative suggestion? It is not perfect but is better than just buying SP.
Briefly; Create skill cues for particular ships, or easier on Devs, provide links to eveMon, EveHq etc at the time a character is created Trial last 28 days and starts with 1 mil SP ( 500k unallocated) Upon subscription a new player / account is given an additional 2 mil unallocated SP.
After 1 month in the game an account can accrue 4 mil SP with no implants or special remap. Then it is down to us as Eve to keep them invested in the game.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
114
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:00:34 -
[4790] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:although as shown throughout every time i "dodged a question" it was by answering the question. i had to explain my answers 5 times since it seems everyone in the "omg the sky is falling" camp doesn't quite understand how words work. You never answered where from?, i expected as much though as the only way someone totally new could find billions of isk is to open the wallet and swap some $/-ú from the royal bank of CCP. Its just youve not got the bottle to admit it.
Dave Stark wrote:counter arguments were provided pages ago, i'm just too lazy to type it all out again. honestly. you youngsters have the energy for repetition, i'm getting old. After 8 times of trying you would never give me an answer to why the unkown outcome of a player selling as opposed to the risk averse CCP way either.
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
|
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:05:34 -
[4791] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:You never answered where from?
You are too young for answer on that type of questions. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
140
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:06:17 -
[4792] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:No comment on first part of my comment? if you didn't shut up after the first time some one pointed out you were wrong like 100 pages ago. what difference will it make me telling you how wrong you are? at least the other guy has the excuse of not understanding english very well. If you didn`t shut up after the first time someone pointed out you are just dodging and avoiding questions like 100 pages ago. What difference will it make me telling you what a trolling, manipulative spinner you are? :D Still I enjoy doing it time after time Thanks for having consistency of not being able to provide counter arguments through this long thread. Also, thanks for being with us for 200 pages, spending countless hours for something which is "of no importance" to you although as shown throughout every time i "dodged a question" it was by answering the question. i had to explain my answers 5 times since it seems everyone in the "omg the sky is falling" camp doesn't quite understand how words work. counter arguments were provided pages ago, i'm just too lazy to type it all out again. honestly. you youngsters have the energy for repetition, i'm getting old. just because it isn't important doesn't mean it isn't interesting. sports aren't important yet millions of people spend millions if not billions of hours watching it - because they find it interesting.
Only thing shown throughout every time you dodged the question was twisting out words, taking things out of the context then replying on them, stating lies, trying to manipulate and spin. "omg the sky is falling" camp obviously understood what you are doing so you have been accused by multiple people for doing that.
Counter arguments were not provided, you did not even read all the arguments. I have challenged you multiple times to do so. If they are so dumb, they should be easily challenged. And if other side cannot disapprove you then you win that discussion. Yet you have failed to do it that way and you just keep spamming, hoping that your stamina in manipulation will outlast others and that the noise you create will show people who just join the thread that you actually disapproved someone and that the "supporters" are correct so they will not spend too much time thinking about it on their own but just taken stated lie for granted truth. Ie you are trying with the old one "1000 repeated lie becomes truth" to make your bs truth.
For example Dror has way more arguments for his idea than you do. Even though i completely dislike his idea of making EVE look like counter strike he does provide some arguments which do work in his theory but they have too mine cons he is simply not taking in consideration.
There were also some others who tried discussing with real pro/con arguments.
On the other side we have you,Mr Epeen, divine something, who will keep trolling or repeating stated lies like they are facts and trying to challenge others based on that.
I guess sports are important for those people then? As they are the most interesting thing they can find?Other way they would spend time on something more important. Still, another try of your digression as by looking how much time you dedicate to this topic it seems it is quite important for you to push it. As you do not just watch it, you are top spammer here.
I do not know nor care why do you do it, but saying that you do not care about something and then spend hours and hours, day by day proves your statement is nonsense. Like the most of other things you say Or you have empty life and you find this being so exciting and interesting topic to troll 200 pages. In which case I am sorry for you.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:07:47 -
[4793] - Quote
ColdBeauty wrote: vets are going to abuse this system and push the price up
There is such thing called market. If something is too pricy than more sellers will come and price will go down.
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:11:49 -
[4794] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Dror wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:8 out of every 10 will quit when they find it is likely to cost them a few hundred dollars to buy enough SP to fly what they want. So, what's the alternative suggestion? It is not perfect but is better than just buying SP. Briefly; Create skill cues for particular ships, or easier on Devs, provide links to eveMon, EveHq etc at the time a character is created Trial last 28 days and starts with 1 mil SP ( 500k unallocated) Upon subscription a new player / account is given an additional 2 mil unallocated SP. After 1 month in the game an account can accrue 4 mil SP with no implants or special remap. Then it is down to us as Eve to keep them invested in the game. Oh, yeah..
I would imagine that the SP system would be much more rewarding if all skills were divided by faction. Instead of training so much for a single support skill, that skill is divided by 4. That reduces the problems even from fitting SP.
Edit: This sorta relies on the idea that increasing the value (sub retention) of the game is the main reason for the announcement idea. It obviously doesn't support the same benefits as actually adding SP to the character, but it does bridge the low-SP starter niche and their goals more efficiently.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Dave Stark
7760
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:14:26 -
[4795] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:although as shown throughout every time i "dodged a question" it was by answering the question. i had to explain my answers 5 times since it seems everyone in the "omg the sky is falling" camp doesn't quite understand how words work. You never answered where from?, i expected as much though as the only way someone totally new could find billions of isk is to open the wallet and swap some $/-ú from the royal bank of CCP. Its just youve not got the bottle to admit it. Dave Stark wrote:counter arguments were provided pages ago, i'm just too lazy to type it all out again. honestly. you youngsters have the energy for repetition, i'm getting old. After 8 times of trying you would never give me an answer to why the unkown outcome of a player selling as opposed to the risk averse CCP way either.
no, it isn't. we've established many times how new players can earn billions. go and watch the meta show where the leader of goonswarm explains it - you don't just have to take my word for it, you see. |
Dave Stark
7763
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:16:13 -
[4796] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:ColdBeauty wrote: vets are going to abuse this system and push the price up
There is such thing called market. If something is too pricy than more sellers will come and price will go down.
especially when the barrier to entry in such a market is 0. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
140
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:16:48 -
[4797] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:although as shown throughout every time i "dodged a question" it was by answering the question. i had to explain my answers 5 times since it seems everyone in the "omg the sky is falling" camp doesn't quite understand how words work. You never answered where from?, i expected as much though as the only way someone totally new could find billions of isk is to open the wallet and swap some $/-ú from the royal bank of CCP. Its just youve not got the bottle to admit it. Dave Stark wrote:counter arguments were provided pages ago, i'm just too lazy to type it all out again. honestly. you youngsters have the energy for repetition, i'm getting old. After 8 times of trying you would never give me an answer to why the unkown outcome of a player selling as opposed to the risk averse CCP way either. no, it isn't. we've established many times how new players can earn billions. go and watch the meta show where the leader of goonswarm explains it - you don't just have to take my word for it, you see.
At least provide links for such things you state, might help you get some credibility.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
743
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:19:09 -
[4798] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:ColdBeauty wrote: vets are going to abuse this system and push the price up
There is such thing called market. If something is too pricy than more sellers will come and price will go down. Not as much as you would imagine - Not long ago plex were 500 mil. If an item is put on the market too much cheaper than what others are selling it for - It will get purchased in bulk and relisted at the higher prices. If one of the idle rich in Eve believe they can profit (or just mess with the market) by buying all of a popular item that is available - They will - and turn a nice profit on it by relisting it for more.
As Alavaria Fera said - The joy of player-driven markets.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
|
Dave Stark
7763
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:21:28 -
[4799] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:although as shown throughout every time i "dodged a question" it was by answering the question. i had to explain my answers 5 times since it seems everyone in the "omg the sky is falling" camp doesn't quite understand how words work. You never answered where from?, i expected as much though as the only way someone totally new could find billions of isk is to open the wallet and swap some $/-ú from the royal bank of CCP. Its just youve not got the bottle to admit it. Dave Stark wrote:counter arguments were provided pages ago, i'm just too lazy to type it all out again. honestly. you youngsters have the energy for repetition, i'm getting old. After 8 times of trying you would never give me an answer to why the unkown outcome of a player selling as opposed to the risk averse CCP way either. no, it isn't. we've established many times how new players can earn billions. go and watch the meta show where the leader of goonswarm explains it - you don't just have to take my word for it, you see. At least provide links for such things you state, might help you get some credibility.
i linked it pages and page ago, you should have already watched it. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
114
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:24:51 -
[4800] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:although as shown throughout every time i "dodged a question" it was by answering the question. i had to explain my answers 5 times since it seems everyone in the "omg the sky is falling" camp doesn't quite understand how words work. You never answered where from?, i expected as much though as the only way someone totally new could find billions of isk is to open the wallet and swap some $/-ú from the royal bank of CCP. Its just youve not got the bottle to admit it. Dave Stark wrote:counter arguments were provided pages ago, i'm just too lazy to type it all out again. honestly. you youngsters have the energy for repetition, i'm getting old. After 8 times of trying you would never give me an answer to why the unkown outcome of a player selling as opposed to the risk averse CCP way either. no, it isn't. we've established many times how new players can earn billions. go and watch the meta show where the leader of goonswarm explains it - you don't just have to take my word for it, you see.
All i see is bla bla bla Quote. i suppose you could always create one and show me even ?
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
|
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
882
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:27:15 -
[4801] - Quote
How about NO?
If people don't like what they are buying they simply should not buy it. Countless times I said already we do not need more super pilots. Noobs are noobs for a reason.
In addition to that you are killing your own game. EVE is supposed to last forever. How do you want to accomplish that if your playerbase is done training in 2 days?
Can you hear that sound?
Right, that is the sound of EVE Offline.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
31
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:28:04 -
[4802] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:General Lootit wrote:ColdBeauty wrote: vets are going to abuse this system and push the price up
There is such thing called market. If something is too pricy than more sellers will come and price will go down. Not as much as you would imagine - Not long ago plex were 500 mil. If an item is put on the market too much cheaper than what others are selling it for - It will get purchased in bulk and relisted at the higher prices. If one of the idle rich in Eve believe they can profit (or just mess with the market) by buying all of a popular item that is available - They will - and turn a nice profit on it by relisting it for more. As Alavaria Fera said - The joy of player-driven markets. So it's traiding warfare and not abuse. Legit part of the game as any warfare. |
Dave Stark
7764
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:28:31 -
[4803] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:although as shown throughout every time i "dodged a question" it was by answering the question. i had to explain my answers 5 times since it seems everyone in the "omg the sky is falling" camp doesn't quite understand how words work. You never answered where from?, i expected as much though as the only way someone totally new could find billions of isk is to open the wallet and swap some $/-ú from the royal bank of CCP. Its just youve not got the bottle to admit it. Dave Stark wrote:counter arguments were provided pages ago, i'm just too lazy to type it all out again. honestly. you youngsters have the energy for repetition, i'm getting old. After 8 times of trying you would never give me an answer to why the unkown outcome of a player selling as opposed to the risk averse CCP way either. no, it isn't. we've established many times how new players can earn billions. go and watch the meta show where the leader of goonswarm explains it - you don't just have to take my word for it, you see. All i see is bla bla bla Quote. i suppose you could always create one and show me even ?
i suppose you could always go back and read the replies, watch the video i linked and listened to the man with the silly goatee explain it on the video? |
Dave Stark
7764
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:29:28 -
[4804] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:How about NO?
If people don't like what they are buying they simply should not buy it. Countless times I said already we do not need more super pilots. Noobs are noobs for a reason.
In addition to that you are killing your own game. EVE is supposed to last forever. How do you want to accomplish that if your playerbase is done training in 2 days?
Can you hear that sound?
Right, that is the sound of EVE Offline.
you people have this really really strange idea that eve has but one activity - the skill queue.
you are aware there's more to eve than the skill queue... right? |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
31
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:35:52 -
[4805] - Quote
elitatwo wrote: Can you hear that sound?
Right, that is the sound of EVE Offline.
funny. Do you know why? Becuse it's just joke. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
115
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:36:01 -
[4806] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:elitatwo wrote:How about NO?
If people don't like what they are buying they simply should not buy it. Countless times I said already we do not need more super pilots. Noobs are noobs for a reason.
In addition to that you are killing your own game. EVE is supposed to last forever. How do you want to accomplish that if your playerbase is done training in 2 days?
Can you hear that sound?
Right, that is the sound of EVE Offline. you people have this really really strange idea that eve has but one activity - the skill queue. you are aware there's more to eve than the skill queue... right? Why you asking me that, iv'e been telling Lootit and Dror that a few thousand messages ago, but apparently its not worth the effort.
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
Dave Stark
7768
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:37:05 -
[4807] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:elitatwo wrote:How about NO?
If people don't like what they are buying they simply should not buy it. Countless times I said already we do not need more super pilots. Noobs are noobs for a reason.
In addition to that you are killing your own game. EVE is supposed to last forever. How do you want to accomplish that if your playerbase is done training in 2 days?
Can you hear that sound?
Right, that is the sound of EVE Offline. you people have this really really strange idea that eve has but one activity - the skill queue. you are aware there's more to eve than the skill queue... right? Why you asking me that, iv'e been telling Lootit and Dror that a few thousand messages ago, but apparently its not worth the effort.
i'm not asking you that.
seriously dude, learn to read. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
140
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:39:21 -
[4808] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote: no, it isn't. we've established many times how new players can earn billions. go and watch the meta show where the leader of goonswarm explains it - you don't just have to take my word for it, you see.
At least provide links for such things you state, might help you get some credibility. i linked it pages and page ago, you should have already watched it.
I do not need it, I was trying to teach you how to get some credibility. Random guy joining now and reading your post can just mark you as bs poster over it as you talk about something that can be easily linked without the link itself. Ie that is how you make proper post with argument as not many will read previous 200+ pages.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
115
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:43:53 -
[4809] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:elitatwo wrote:How about NO?
If people don't like what they are buying they simply should not buy it. Countless times I said already we do not need more super pilots. Noobs are noobs for a reason.
In addition to that you are killing your own game. EVE is supposed to last forever. How do you want to accomplish that if your playerbase is done training in 2 days?
Can you hear that sound?
Right, that is the sound of EVE Offline. you people have this really really strange idea that eve has but one activity - the skill queue. you are aware there's more to eve than the skill queue... right? Why you asking me that, iv'e been telling Lootit and Dror that a few thousand messages ago, but apparently its not worth the effort. i'm not asking you that. seriously dude, learn to read. Im just replying Stark style
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
31
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:48:14 -
[4810] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:elitatwo wrote:How about NO?
If people don't like what they are buying they simply should not buy it. Countless times I said already we do not need more super pilots. Noobs are noobs for a reason.
In addition to that you are killing your own game. EVE is supposed to last forever. How do you want to accomplish that if your playerbase is done training in 2 days?
Can you hear that sound?
Right, that is the sound of EVE Offline. you people have this really really strange idea that eve has but one activity - the skill queue. you are aware there's more to eve than the skill queue... right? Why you asking me that, iv'e been telling Lootit and Dror that a few thousand messages ago, but apparently its not worth the effort. i'm not asking you that. seriously dude, learn to read. Im just replying Stark style You are best in that kind things. |
|
Dave Stark
7768
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:50:00 -
[4811] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote: no, it isn't. we've established many times how new players can earn billions. go and watch the meta show where the leader of goonswarm explains it - you don't just have to take my word for it, you see.
At least provide links for such things you state, might help you get some credibility. i linked it pages and page ago, you should have already watched it. I do not need it, I was trying to teach you how to get some credibility. Random guy joining now and reading your post can just mark you as bs poster over it as you talk about something that can be easily linked without the link itself. Ie that is how you make proper post with argument as not many will read previous 200+ pages.
people are reading all 200, trust me.
the like spam i'm getting in my notifications means there's some one reading all 200 pages. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
141
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 16:58:04 -
[4812] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote: no, it isn't. we've established many times how new players can earn billions. go and watch the meta show where the leader of goonswarm explains it - you don't just have to take my word for it, you see.
At least provide links for such things you state, might help you get some credibility. i linked it pages and page ago, you should have already watched it. I do not need it, I was trying to teach you how to get some credibility. Random guy joining now and reading your post can just mark you as bs poster over it as you talk about something that can be easily linked without the link itself. Ie that is how you make proper post with argument as not many will read previous 200+ pages. people are reading all 200, trust me. the like spam i'm getting in my notifications means there's some one reading all 200 pages.
Not sure how that can be related unless you check every single like you get. If you have so much time to wasted, i am speechless :D
But interesting that you are pointing that out implying people like your comments, while it is just couple of you fighting for the "same cause" here, liking each others posts :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7774
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 17:04:06 -
[4813] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Not sure how that can be related unless you check every single like you get. If you have so much time to waste, i am speechless :D
But interesting that you are pointing that out implying people like your comments, while it is just couple of you fighting for the "same cause" here, liking each others posts :D
uh, when some one likes your post it shows up in the top right in the notifications bar.
the person liking my posts (it tells you who likes them in the notification) has yet to post. i've never even heard of them. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
141
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 17:06:44 -
[4814] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Not sure how that can be related unless you check every single like you get. If you have so much time to waste, i am speechless :D
But interesting that you are pointing that out implying people like your comments, while it is just couple of you fighting for the "same cause" here, liking each others posts :D uh, when some one likes your post it shows up in the top right in the notifications bar. the person liking my posts (it tells you who likes them in the notification) has yet to post. i've never even heard of them.
Yes, I am aware of that, but it does not show on which page the post is ^^.
In the other part i surely believe :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7781
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 17:09:52 -
[4815] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Not sure how that can be related unless you check every single like you get. If you have so much time to waste, i am speechless :D
But interesting that you are pointing that out implying people like your comments, while it is just couple of you fighting for the "same cause" here, liking each others posts :D uh, when some one likes your post it shows up in the top right in the notifications bar. the person liking my posts (it tells you who likes them in the notification) has yet to post. i've never even heard of them. Yes, I am aware of that, but it does not show on which page the post is ^^. In the other part i surely believe :D
yes it does, click on the alert and it takes you directly to the post that has been liked.
anyway i have a restaurant reservation - bon soir. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
31
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 17:10:03 -
[4816] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Not sure how that can be related unless you check every single like you get. If you have so much time to waste, i am speechless :D
But interesting that you are pointing that out implying people like your comments, while it is just couple of you fighting for the "same cause" here, liking each others posts :D uh, when some one likes your post it shows up in the top right in the notifications bar. the person liking my posts (it tells you who likes them in the notification) has yet to post. i've never even heard of them. Yes, I am aware of that, but it does not show on which page the post is ^^. In the other part i surely believe :D It will show what post was liked when you click on them. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
141
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 17:11:27 -
[4817] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Not sure how that can be related unless you check every single like you get. If you have so much time to waste, i am speechless :D
But interesting that you are pointing that out implying people like your comments, while it is just couple of you fighting for the "same cause" here, liking each others posts :D uh, when some one likes your post it shows up in the top right in the notifications bar. the person liking my posts (it tells you who likes them in the notification) has yet to post. i've never even heard of them. Yes, I am aware of that, but it does not show on which page the post is ^^. In the other part i surely believe :D yes it does, click on the alert and it takes you directly to the post that has been liked. anyway i have a restaurant reservation - bon soir.
Exactly and that`s what I referred up with:
Not sure how that can be related unless you check every single like you get. If you have so much time to waste, i am speechless :D
Just proves your reading and comprehension skills :D
Au revoir
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
141
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 17:13:26 -
[4818] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Not sure how that can be related unless you check every single like you get. If you have so much time to waste, i am speechless :D
But interesting that you are pointing that out implying people like your comments, while it is just couple of you fighting for the "same cause" here, liking each others posts :D uh, when some one likes your post it shows up in the top right in the notifications bar. the person liking my posts (it tells you who likes them in the notification) has yet to post. i've never even heard of them. Yes, I am aware of that, but it does not show on which page the post is ^^. In the other part i surely believe :D It will show what post was liked when you click on them.
Yes, as I said in my first comment. Somehow I am not surprised you and Dave are on the same side :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
31
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 17:15:53 -
[4819] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Not sure how that can be related unless you check every single like you get. If you have so much time to waste, i am speechless :D
But interesting that you are pointing that out implying people like your comments, while it is just couple of you fighting for the "same cause" here, liking each others posts :D uh, when some one likes your post it shows up in the top right in the notifications bar. the person liking my posts (it tells you who likes them in the notification) has yet to post. i've never even heard of them. Yes, I am aware of that, but it does not show on which page the post is ^^. In the other part i surely believe :D It will show what post was liked when you click on them. Yes, as I said in my first comment. Somehow I am not surprised you and Dave are on the same side :D Same thing about you and Levi. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
141
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 17:19:13 -
[4820] - Quote
General Lootit wrote: Same thing about you and Levi.
Cannot comment on his posting, I am not reading his posts much, I am mainly challenging Dave all the time, you see I did not even pay attention to you. :)
But maybe you can provide me some counter arguments on my concerns? Before just labeling me same as someone else who you think is wrong? Or you will just join "noise without arguments" club?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
|
Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two Reckoning Star Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 17:20:41 -
[4821] - Quote
I still support this feature. 241 pages and not one logical argument against it to change my view.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
141
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 17:21:20 -
[4822] - Quote
Sasha Sen wrote:I still support this feature. 241 pages and not one logical argument against it to change my view.
I feel sorry for your logic then :|
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two Reckoning Star Alliance
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 17:25:38 -
[4823] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Sasha Sen wrote:I still support this feature. 241 pages and not one logical argument against it to change my view.
I feel sorry for your logic then :|
Maybe you could donate a skill pack to me out of pity then?
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
141
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 17:31:54 -
[4824] - Quote
Sasha Sen wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:
I feel sorry for your logic then :|
Maybe you could donate a skill pack to me out of pity then?
I could.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
31
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 17:42:22 -
[4825] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote: Same thing about you and Levi.
Cannot comment on his posting, I am not reading his posts much, I am mainly challenging Dave all the time, you see I did not even pay attention to you. :) But maybe you can provide me some counter arguments on my concerns? Before just labeling me same as someone else who you think is wrong? Or you will just join "noise without arguments" club? I don't mind if you repeat your concerns but I'm can't guarante that I will be able to invalidate them. |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
480
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 17:50:45 -
[4826] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote:This proposal caters to instant gratification sort of players. Those players will never work out in EVE anyway. It is not the kind of game for them. At the same time it annoys and demoralizes the core players. Why would this "annoy and demoralise" core players? If "instant gratification" players flood into EVE, boost their characters with SP packets, fly around cluelessly in bling ships, and get blown to pieces over and over again until they leave - just what exactly is the problem? Is it that you cannot handle the entertainment? Is it that you cannot stand CCP making money? Are you opposed to having large numbers of logins showing in your launcher window? If there are players who cannot deal with EVE in the long run, but who through this feature will spend tons of cash on this game in the ultimately mistaken idea that they can pay to win - then how please is that not great for everybody but them? As you say, they will be gone sooner or later anyway. But this will make them leave later, and in the meantime they pay CCP's server bills and provide you with endless hours of pew-pew entertainment (and a source for ISK, those skill packets and bling ships have to come from somewhere). The supposed influx of EVE-incompatible players is at worst irrelevant, at best highly beneficial to everybody else. There is only one thing that is worth discussing here as far as core play goes: This feature would ultimately increase the number of "up to about 30M SP" players and alts in game, and I mean players and alts that are EVE-compatible enough to be around for quite some time. Furthermore, these players and alts would have their SP "better tuned" to specific aims. So basically, you will get an increase in low to medium, but properly, SP-trained players in EVE. Now, are you for that or against that, as far as "core play" goes? I have a hard time seeing how this can negatively affect vets, unless perhaps if they have grown accustomed to shooting low SP fish in a space barrel.
Very good question.
There are certain core mechanics and policies in EVE that make up what it is. These, lets call them values are deeply ingrained in the players. EVE has become more than a game. It is a virtual reality, a hobby, an IDENTITY for many of the players. Whenever a real or perceived attack on those values happens it is a direct attack on the players identity.
The constant, steady XP/SP gain is one of them. It is tied to time and thus does not pressure the players to grind instead allowing them to explore the universe and all it has to offer. It is also a beautiful and unique system that makes EVE stand out among the rest of MMOs. Allowing people to grind or pay for SP is breaking the fundamental values of the game.
Again it has NOTHING to do with helping new players, we're all for that. Personally, this system would not affect me at all if it was hard capped at 30-50mil SP. But then we would be sticking our newbros with that same problem. How do you think a few months old player will feel when they encounter a three day old character that destroys them in a solo fight because he bought SP. Don't you think that those that say "I can't compete with veterans coz they've been playing too long" will be replaced with even more who say "I can't compete with veterans AND newbies that have thick wallets to P2W."
I reject the notion that CCP should farm those people for their money. We could have been nearing 1million subs at this point if CCP stuck to the values. We could reach 1million subs if they rediscover their strength and what makes EVE great. You're hoping that they'll make money of whales while sacrificing the core mechanics. I highly doubt it, I think its only going to harm their profits.
A personal note on fatigue. We've been arguing and reasoning with CCP on this or that change for years. Every time they ignore and waste our efforts to give feedback it results in player fatigue. We keep fighting because we love EVE and we love CCP for it is truly an awesome company, they just need to get their **** together. There is a time however when people get too exhausted, too demoralized and too disenfranchised. Many have either given up or continue to cling on simply because there is nothing else out there that comes close to EVE. Personally I stopped posting and giving feedback over a year ago and hell knows when my fatigue timer will expire. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 17:56:49 -
[4827] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote: Same thing about you and Levi.
Cannot comment on his posting, I am not reading his posts much, I am mainly challenging Dave all the time, you see I did not even pay attention to you. :) But maybe you can provide me some counter arguments on my concerns? Before just labeling me same as someone else who you think is wrong? Or you will just join "noise without arguments" club? I don't mind if you repeat your concerns but I'm can't guarante that I will be able to invalidate them.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6100535#post6100535
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6101499#post6101499
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6107198#post6107198
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6107200#post6107200
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6107202#post6107202
First one was mostly sarcasm, I did not realize how serious CCP is about this. Then I started writing my concerns with more details :)
You do not have to invalidate them. Maybe you will come up with one counter argument which would make me change a part of my opinion. Then someone else comes up with another etc and then you get me to support this. Until someone does it I am strongly against it for the reasons I have mentioned but I am not here with "divine truth" which cannot be changed if proper arguments are brought up. Or maybe you will get another point of view on the subject as well. I have to warn you, it`s a long read :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Jared Khanar
53
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 18:15:00 -
[4828] - Quote
https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/accord-reached-at-ccps-special-summit/
Quote: It is CCPGÇÿs plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store.
The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. The CSM, under NDA, has been presented with CCPGÇÿs plans for continued evolution of the business model and agrees that nothing they saw breaks this principle. CCP has committed to sharing their plans with the CSM on this front on an ongoing basis.
[...]
Game-affecting Virtual Goods: We are convinced that CCP has no plans to introduce any game-affecting virtual goods, only pure vanity items such as clothing and ship skins. We have been repeatedly assured that there are no plans for GÇÿgold ammo', ships which have different statistics from existing common hulls, or any other feared GÇÿgame destroying' virtual goods or services. We have expressed our deep concern about potential grey areas that the introduction of virtual goods permits, and CCP has made a commitment to discuss any proposals that might fall into these grey areas in detail with CSM at the earliest possible stage.
http://www.gamewatcher.com/news/2011-04-07-eve-online-to-sell-vanity-items-only-as-micro-transactions
Quote: "It is CCP's plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only," said senior producer Arnar Hrafyn Gylfason. CCP and the CSM put together an emergency summit to deal with the mob.
"There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store," continued Gylfason.
"The investment of money in Eve should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. The CSM, under NDA, has been presented with CCP's plans for continued evolution of the business model and agrees that nothing they saw breaks this principle. CCP has committed to sharing their plans with the CSM on this front on an ongoing basis." Lack of communication to players was the problem, say CSM and CCP.
[...]
"We are convinced that CCP has no plans to introduce any game-affecting virtual goods, only pure vanity items such as clothing and ship skins," continued Gianturco.
[...]
"We have expressed our deep concern about potential grey areas that the introduction of virtual goods permits, and CCP has made a commitment to discuss any proposals that might fall into these grey areas in detail with CSM at the earliest possible stage."
Please don-¦t introduce items, that have the potential to alter the gameplay experience, in the EVE Store. If you feel an existing feature or mechanic needs to be changed in order to provide a fun gameplay to your customers, please do not "solve" this problem with a solution that requires additional payment. But ofcourse you are welcome to treat the symptoms or solve the underlying problem.
If you choose to follow this road, please consider telling us, if future "solutions" for whatever will be implemented the same way, too. |
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
55
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 18:18:46 -
[4829] - Quote
4,800 replies so far and only 30 likes on the first post. Does anymore really need to be said about the absurdity of this idea being presented? |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
483
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 18:27:26 -
[4830] - Quote
Uhm..... are you a long lost twin of mine? |
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 18:29:30 -
[4831] - Quote
It will take some time to reply you but HELL it's good reading. |
Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 18:50:26 -
[4832] - Quote
I checked dozens of pages to see what the main complaints are. Here are 3 suggestions:
1. GÇÿTransneural Skill PacketGÇÖ numbers that have been used are conditionally accessible if access to API has been granted. This allows corps to practice effective and interesting due dilligence for spy and theft protection.
2. "There will be a new item type called GÇÿTransneural Skill PacketGÇÖ that can be consumed to give any character unallocated skillpoints"
Put this on a timer (timers seem to be the fixer of all things). That unallocated skill points increase by a certain number of points per hour (with diminishing returns initial sp dependent).
*This allows time to reverse skill packets created by account theft without undue impact on the purchaser in question.
*It allows CCP to adjust the rate if too fast/too slow skill point increases are deemed damaging to the game (as per the design principle at the base of frequent releases. Things can be tweaked, so the threshold for release need not be too high). *It limits the speed of skill point tanking and so bypasses the great unknowns on what the hell is going to happen with players who have trillions of isk to spend.
3. See the skill packet transfer in conjunction with T3 skill point sinks. If skills become replaceable at enhanced speeds, can there then be more cases where there is risk of sp losses? |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 18:59:56 -
[4833] - Quote
First part
Don ZOLA wrote: After that turbo start he realizes the game is quite slow ... older players will utilize this function to spec new alts
New players could do same thing as old ones e.g. spec new alts when they hit 50m
Don ZOLA wrote: 2. People will focus even more in ISK grinding, in order to buy chars, get the sp. I mean you can never have enough sp, right? You can hope it will not happen, but I assure it will. That means that less people will PVP and we (bitter vets) will enjoy pvp like in good old games with much smaller numbers.
Hunters comes only when victims in place. More grinders -> more easy targets. It's rare type of profitable PvP and what I intend to try in the future. Post on reddit
Don ZOLA wrote: 5. People who like fair chances in games will quit as well.
In case if it wasn't sarcasm There is no such thing as "a fair fight" or "an unfair fight". There's only a fight. Circumstances are irrelevant
Don ZOLA wrote: He had trained every day for 12 years, to his optimized attributes, with implants, without doing any (at least visible) mistakes to be on the top for all these years. Now with this new option I will simply use my inactive accounts (you can check their sp) and spend cash to take him over. I mean F*CK his 12 years of efforts I will give you money!!! (And that`s what this is about right?)
Matter of prestige. Only stupid and/or very rich person will dump his cash into one single toon. Specialized toons are much cheaper. So chance is exist but very small. Furthermore history of employee will show who is vet indeed. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 19:10:30 -
[4834] - Quote
Devs post about pestige
CCP Terminus wrote: On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
152
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 19:24:20 -
[4835] - Quote
Due to too many quotes, my original text is normal, your quote in italic then my reply in bold.
After that turbo start he realizes the game is quite slow ... older players will utilize this function to spec new alts
New players could do same thing as old ones e.g. spec new alts when they hit 50m
Lots of players could do it at some point but that is not the point. Point is what you have taken out of context - After that turbo start he realizes the game is quite slow unless he wants to keep spending more and more money to speed it until he gets comfortable with sp. Pity that in the most cases he will not have any idea what he needs/wants. Because that is what you learn while your skills are training. There is no Instant Start Up Course to teach them everything in couple of hours. Then disappointment comes. Guess what, 99% will quit. You will make them spend extra cash and give them false image of the game which will not lead to anything.
2. People will focus even more in ISK grinding, in order to buy chars, get the sp. I mean you can never have enough sp, right? You can hope it will not happen, but I assure it will. That means that less people will PVP and we (bitter vets) will enjoy pvp like in good old games with much smaller numbers.
Hunters comes only when victims in place. More grinders -> more easy targets. It's rare type of profitable PvP and what I intend to try in the future. Post on reddit
CCP has found out that the most of those who do not "integrate within society" but focus on solo roles (isk making) are the ones that quits the most and they are looking to find way to increase their retention rate. Hardly will happen by pushing players even heavier into grinding isk. Not everyone is npcing in 0.0 to became a victim :) And even though it might create more victims for some,we have to look at whole picture, not just our own interest
5. People who like fair chances in games will quit as well.
In case if it wasn't sarcasm There is no such thing as "a fair fight" or "an unfair fight". There's only a fight. Circumstances are irrelevant
What I meant is fair chances within the fundamentals. Ie people who get their isk by plexing already have some advantages over regular ones (they do not have to put time/effort to earn it). So going further this way more players will see it as unfair thing. I agree this is already bypassed by the bazaar, but the bazaar is here for a long time and most of players who play nowadays started when it was already in. This is change to "coordinate" system of chars. You can have 50mil sp today and 150 tomorrow. Plenty will find it unfair for the reason i wrote in the next quote.
He had trained every day for 12 years, to his optimized attributes, with implants, without doing any (at least visible) mistakes to be on the top for all these years. Now with this new option I will simply use my inactive accounts (you can check their sp) and spend cash to take him over. I mean F*CK his 12 years of efforts I will give you money!!! (And that`s what this is about right?)
Matter of prestige. Only stupid and/or very rich person will dump his cash into one single toon. Specialized toons are much cheaper. So chance is exist but very small. Furthermore history of employee will show who is vet indeed.
It is matter of prestige. But there will be some cases of that and as I explained, you send a wrong message about your consistency to your customers by screwing up your long paying customers.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
152
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 19:27:27 -
[4836] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Devs post about pestigeCCP Terminus wrote: On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.
It is still not the same. That is like saying that in any competition there will be the 1st place for the ones who used doping and separate 1st place for those who did not. Top 3, 5, eventually 10 matters for prestige, no one will care about #15 but he did not use "cheats".
Edit: Which does not mean there will be no unhappy top 100 players that got out of that list. Hard cap should be set at like 100 mils or something like that (or some amount where people already consider themselves to be "achieved' by the SP they have. And yes, that means nothing in terms of skills yet plenty are proud of their sp as accomplishment.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Jared Khanar
56
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 19:58:42 -
[4837] - Quote
Quote: CCP Terminus wrote:
On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.
This is like marking them with a barcode on the forehead, because they choose to ... progress in a specific way |
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation MinTek Conglomerate
97
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 20:32:15 -
[4838] - Quote
What I have is said a number of times already... And I didn't read all 235 pages, but if reasons I dislike the proposal are actually not obvious, there they are: * Through trading characters, we make big decisions and have to think them carefully. We may not like the outcome, or blame ourselves for a bad mistake, but we did this and can only sell char to fix what we've done. * Through trading sp, we can fix any little error we've made, on any char. Eve is a game of repercussions, or at least it should be. You trained something by mistake? Deal with it. That's the best way it is
Now, IF the change is actually imminent.. It would be better if: a) skill extraction was limited to some reasonably low level b) skill injection couldn't be used to get above absolutely necessary minimum of skills, which can actually be achieved by creating characters with higher SP (what you've already made, partly?).
Yes, I know, this isn't what the whole idea was initially designed for. But the "issue" is was designed to "solve" is what I love EVE for! |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 20:53:31 -
[4839] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:CCP has found out that the most of those who do not "integrate within society" but focus on solo roles (isk making) are the ones that quits the most and they are looking to find way to increase their retention rate.
Most importatnt value is blown ship within first month and not "integrate within society". I joined small corp but I'm still soloing(for real). So in what group am I? Data need to be interpreted.
Don ZOLA wrote:For all those years, majority did not complain about having to spend time to get sp, isk etc, and to remind you it was much harded than nowadays.
Why now? Caring for noobs? I don't think so.
Don ZOLA wrote: we have to look at whole picture, not just our own interest
We can guessing but data analyzing is a thing only devs can do in proper way.
Don ZOLA wrote: Ie people who get their isk by plexing already have some advantages over regular ones (they do not have to put time/effort to earn it).
Actual work doesn't count? Or you just pushing people to grinding? =)
Don ZOLA wrote: After that turbo start he realizes the game is quite slow unless he wants to keep spending more and more money to speed it until he gets comfortable with sp.
I have no permit to speaking for all of us(noobs) where is comfortable sp zone and I'm petty much sure you too.
You wrote There is no Instant Start Up Course to teach them everything in couple of hours.
Yeap. But also I know that everyone have different learning rate. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 21:00:13 -
[4840] - Quote
Shade Alidiana wrote:What I have is said a number of times already... And I didn't read all 235 pages, but if reasons I dislike the proposal are actually not obvious, there they are: * Through trading characters, we make big decisions and have to think them carefully. We may not like the outcome, or blame ourselves for a bad mistake, but we did this and can only sell char to fix what we've done. * Through trading sp, we can fix any little error we've made, on any char. Eve is a game of repercussions, or at least it should be. You trained something by mistake? Deal with it. That's the best way it is
Now, IF the change is actually imminent.. It would be better if: a) skill extraction was limited to some reasonably low level b) skill injection couldn't be used to get above absolutely necessary minimum of skills, which can actually be achieved by creating characters with higher SP (what you've already made, partly?).
Yes, I know, this isn't what the whole idea was initially designed for. But the "issue" is was designed to "solve" is what I love EVE for!
Edit: would actually make sense if extraction rate increased with sp, preferrably in a nonlinear way. No extraction at 50 mil, 1 mil per month at 100, 4 at 200? That feels still a bit too high to me, but you got the idea. Or maybe not per month but per SP gained, like 1% of SP can be extracted, injecting doesn't count as gained. That might sound good enough as well... The game gets updates, nerfs and buffs.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
|
Dave Stark
7787
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 21:25:59 -
[4841] - Quote
Zepheros Naeonis wrote:4,800 replies so far and only 30 likes on the first post. Does anymore really need to be said about the absurdity of this idea being presented?
considering elise randolph had 500+ upvotes on reddit saying how good it is - i think if you're trying to decide if this idea is good/bad based on popular opinion then all we're missing is a release date. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
117
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 21:36:01 -
[4842] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Zepheros Naeonis wrote:4,800 replies so far and only 30 likes on the first post. Does anymore really need to be said about the absurdity of this idea being presented? considering elise randolph had 500+ upvotes on reddit saying how good it is - i think if you're trying to decide if this idea is good/bad based on popular opinion then all we're missing is a release date.
There you go again Quoting,Nice to get a poll going here to get the actual sub base has to say.
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 21:38:21 -
[4843] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:Devs post about pestigeCCP Terminus wrote: On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.
It is still not the same. That is like saying that in any competition there will be the 1st place for the ones who used doping and separate 1st place for those who did not. Top 3, 5, eventually 10 matters for "top"prestige, no one will care about #15 but he did not use "cheats". Still the number of people who care about it as prestige could easily be much bigger, added explanation below. Edit: Which does not mean there will be no unhappy top 100 players that got out of that list. Hard cap should be set at like 100 mils or something like that (or some amount where people already consider themselves to be "achieved' by the SP they have. And yes, that means nothing in terms of skills yet plenty are proud of their sp as accomplishment. "Cheaters don't permit for race" that is main rule of challanges. Simply don't count them. |
Dave Stark
7787
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 21:40:23 -
[4844] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Zepheros Naeonis wrote:4,800 replies so far and only 30 likes on the first post. Does anymore really need to be said about the absurdity of this idea being presented? considering elise randolph had 500+ upvotes on reddit saying how good it is - i think if you're trying to decide if this idea is good/bad based on popular opinion then all we're missing is a release date. There you go again Quoting,Nice to get a poll going here to see what the actual sub base has to say.
yes, quoting. that's what you do when you reply to a point. you quote the point that has been made, then you reply to it. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
117
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 21:42:11 -
[4845] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Zepheros Naeonis wrote:4,800 replies so far and only 30 likes on the first post. Does anymore really need to be said about the absurdity of this idea being presented? considering elise randolph had 500+ upvotes on reddit saying how good it is - i think if you're trying to decide if this idea is good/bad based on popular opinion then all we're missing is a release date. There you go again Quoting,Nice to get a poll going here to see what the actual sub base has to say. yes, quoting. that's what you do when you reply to a point. you quote the point that has been made, then you reply to it.
Its a shame when your asked a direct question you can never get an answer from you.
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
Dave Stark
7787
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 21:43:20 -
[4846] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Zepheros Naeonis wrote:4,800 replies so far and only 30 likes on the first post. Does anymore really need to be said about the absurdity of this idea being presented? considering elise randolph had 500+ upvotes on reddit saying how good it is - i think if you're trying to decide if this idea is good/bad based on popular opinion then all we're missing is a release date. There you go again Quoting,Nice to get a poll going here to see what the actual sub base has to say. yes, quoting. that's what you do when you reply to a point. you quote the point that has been made, then you reply to it. Its a shame when your asked a direct question you can never get an answer from you.
i've answered every question i've been asked. multiple times. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
118
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 21:51:26 -
[4847] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i've answered every question i've been asked. multiple times. I rather be a stupid person wanting clarification and answers, in order to be wiser, than be a stupid person that blindly believes the lies they are told, without question.
Ive asked you now, why the unkown outcome of a player selling as opposed to the risk averse CCP way either.
Ask broad questions and you'll get more than one answer. Ask specific questions and you'll get no answer.
careful or people will begin to believe you have a hidden agenda.
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
Illegal Spokeswoman
Illegal Investments
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 21:54:11 -
[4848] - Quote
I think this is a great direction to go.
The diminishing returns should be scrapped. If you want to take SP's out of the game find another way to do it.
Gÿà Illegal Investments Gÿà Banking Gÿà
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 21:55:19 -
[4849] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:[quote=Dave Stark]Ask broad questions and you'll get more than one answer. Ask specific questions and you'll get no answer. Just like asking for refutation on criticizing game design through research.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
154
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 22:11:49 -
[4850] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Most importatnt value is blown ship within first month and not "integrate within society". I joined small corp but I'm still soloing(for real). So in what group am I? Data need to be interpreted.
That is your opinion. I think that in MMO games, socialization and integration have quite bigger aspect than the ship which is inevitably going to explode :)
General Lootit wrote: Why now? Caring for noobs? I don't think so.
Because younger generations are in general different than older ones. They want instant fun and they follow instant trends, following trend setters and flavor of the month trends. CCP probably thinks they will attract them with new features, but they do not realize side effects.
General Lootit wrote: We can guessing but data analyzing is a thing only devs can do in proper way.
What I mean is that we cannot judge on it based on our own benefit from it as you did.
General Lootit wrote: Actual work doesn't count? Or you just pushing people to grinding? =)
I never said I think its wrong, I am just stating how some players perceive it. If I was short on isk i would sell plexes as well since my job earning can afford me to not spend time to "work" in game. But you are taking one sentence out of whole paragraph.
General Lootit wrote: I have no permit to speaking for all of us(noobs) where is comfortable sp zone and I'm petty much sure you too.
I agree, that is why i just did a suggestion but stated it should be investigated deeper into.
Yeap. But also I know that everyone have different learning rate.
Agreed and I know players who actually "suffered" because they were capable much more than their sp allowed them. Though there were not many of them. But they had patience and did not whine too much about it. Simply do what you can and wait till you are ready for the next step.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
154
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 22:14:37 -
[4851] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:Devs post about pestigeCCP Terminus wrote: On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.
It is still not the same. That is like saying that in any competition there will be the 1st place for the ones who used doping and separate 1st place for those who did not. Top 3, 5, eventually 10 matters for "top"prestige, no one will care about #15 but he did not use "cheats". Still the number of people who care about it as prestige could easily be much bigger, added explanation below. Edit: Which does not mean there will be no unhappy top 100 players that got out of that list. Hard cap should be set at like 100 mils or something like that (or some amount where people already consider themselves to be "achieved' by the SP they have. And yes, that means nothing in terms of skills yet plenty are proud of their sp as accomplishment. "Cheaters don't permit for race" that is main rule of challanges. Simply don't count them. It is not simple as that. Because if they are spending tons of isk/money to get there they do not want to be considered as such. After all they are just using option which they were provided with, within the rules. And they want to claim their top positions fair and square. While on the other hand it is not fair to the ones who have been working on those positions for years, to be jumped over simply because someone is richer.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 22:23:41 -
[4852] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:CCP probably thinks they will attract them with new features, but they do not realize side effects. Can you list any problems that aren't..
veterans getting the option of alts it plausibly being ineffective ?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 22:58:47 -
[4853] - Quote
Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:CCP probably thinks they will attract them with new features, but they do not realize side effects. Can you list any problems that aren't.. veterans getting the option of alts it plausibly being ineffective ?
* Rich Veterans pushing the price out of reach of new guys because of diminishing returns causing them to buy up vast amounts of TSPs.
* New players that can't afford R/L cash and unable to effectively grind enough isk for TSPs seeing their rich in R/L peers advance to more fun stuff more quickly.
* Renters being asked to stump up SPs by nullsec powerblocks.
* FOTM becoming even more of an issue as TSPs allow instant access to whatever new cancerous crap everyone wants to fly.
* T3s becoming even more ubiquitous and obsoleting more ships as TSPs will render SP penalty for ship loss redundant.
Just a couple off top of my head |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 23:02:37 -
[4854] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: That is your opinion. I think that in MMO games, socialization and integration have quite bigger aspect than the ship which is inevitably going to explode :)
That fine. You can have personal opinion. But let me show that your opinion mismaching with source of it. And I'm personally value source more than your opinion. "We can guessing but data analyzing is a thing only devs can do in proper way."
Don ZOLA wrote: What I mean is that we cannot judge on it based on our own benefit from it as you did.
I'm writing here only because of my personal benifit. If someone has no personal reasons to defend his(?) position than I found it very strange. He hiding personal reason or just wanting attention.
Don ZOLA wrote: But you are taking one sentence out of whole paragraph.
Following your first rule
Don ZOLA wrote: Agreed and I know players who actually "suffered" because they were capable much more than their sp allowed them. Though there were not many of them. But they had patience and did not whine too much about it. Simply do what you can and wait till you are ready for the next step.
They must be happy about new system =)
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 23:08:19 -
[4855] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: That is your opinion. I think that in MMO games, socialization and integration have quite bigger aspect than the ship which is inevitably going to explode :)
It's not my opinion. But let me show that your opinion mismaching with source of it. And I'm personally value source than your opinion. "We can guessing but data analyzing is a thing only devs can do in proper way."
Don ZOLA wrote: What I mean is that we cannot judge on it based on our own benefit from it as you did.
I'm writing here only because of my personal benifit. If someone has no personal reasons to defend his(?) position than I find it very strange. He hiding personal reason or just wanting attention.
Don ZOLA wrote: But you are taking one sentence out of whole paragraph.
Following your first rule
Don ZOLA wrote: Agreed and I know players who actually "suffered" because they were capable much more than their sp allowed them. Though there were not many of them. But they had patience and did not whine too much about it. Simply do what you can and wait till you are ready for the next step.
They must be happy about new system =) |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
154
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 23:25:03 -
[4856] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:That fine. You can have personal opinion. But let me show that your opinion mismaching with source of it. And I'm personally value source more than your opinion. "We can guessing but data analyzing is a thing only devs can do in proper way." Then next time be more precise please. Since I thought you meant any ship explosion, not to other player only. At that is quite different because almost everyone will lose the ship in missions, those who lose it to another player have other aspect than losing it just to NPCs (competition, revenge, adrenaline). Though I do find this quite interesting, shows us a bit of behavior patterns among players, which should definitely be utilized by CCP
General Lootit wrote: I'm writing here only because of my personal benifit. If someone has no personal reasons to defend his(?) position than I found it very strange. He hiding personal reason or just wanting attention.
Well my personal benefit will be if EVE lives and keeps being awesome game while having consistency in fundamentals. As you can read in my WOT`s my major concern is on customer-service provider relationship which is affected by these changes. I seek no attention, other way I would be on all forums here 24/7 :)
General Lootit wrote: Following your first rule
I do not understand what you mean by this?
General Lootit wrote:They must be happy about new system =)
Not really, all the friends I have talked to about this subject are strongly against it. They are all vets though, so I cannot say anything for newcomers beside some of them stated in this thread.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 23:28:54 -
[4857] - Quote
ColdBeauty wrote:Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:CCP probably thinks they will attract them with new features, but they do not realize side effects. Can you list any problems that aren't.. veterans getting the option of alts it plausibly being ineffective ? * Rich Veterans pushing the price out of reach of new guys because of diminishing returns causing them to buy up vast amounts of TSPs. * New players that can't afford R/L cash and unable to effectively grind enough isk for TSPs seeing their rich in R/L peers advance to more fun stuff more quickly. * Renters being asked to stump up SPs by nullsec powerblocks. * FOTM becoming even more of an issue as TSPs allow instant access to whatever new cancerous crap everyone wants to fly. * T3s becoming even more ubiquitous and obsoleting more ships as TSPs will render SP penalty for ship loss redundant. Just a couple off top of my head Rich vets controlling the price sorta relies on there being not enough supply pushing the price back down. New players that already can't afford R/L cash to purchase a character are already in the same position. This might be problematic (and arbitrary design), but that has yet to be really discussed? Renters not being able to rent can manage. This item set has been mentioned already as just another currency, because it's on the market. It's also not in favor of the rentee because that's basically traveling with ISK in cargo.. which might imply that they wouldn't get paid. "OP" is only a problem because of design. That includes limited SP (unfair playing field). Maybe SP trading would increase the overall class size average.. or tech level or whatever; but power creep ultimately requires buffing that which just seems no fun or an alternative More average SP could also promote enough characters beyond any negative design limitations.. or at least provides options. Granted, this is on them to enjoy the game or low status or limitations enough to play.. The trend, though, is that options are great. Abundance is.. content; is entertainment; etc.. The game convention that's on is discussing capital improvements, and some capitals are cheap.. like 1.5B or so. If these are reinforced, even for newbies, maybe this is the counter to T3s; but that's conjecture. The point is that there are design options, and more or less T3s is a simple subsection of the game, where more newbies playing the game because of more options might just increase frigate demographics also. Nice post.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4237
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 23:33:34 -
[4858] - Quote
ColdBeauty wrote:Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:CCP probably thinks they will attract them with new features, but they do not realize side effects. Can you list any problems that aren't.. veterans getting the option of alts it plausibly being ineffective ? * Rich Veterans pushing the price out of reach of new guys because of diminishing returns causing them to buy up vast amounts of TSPs. * New players that can't afford R/L cash and unable to effectively grind enough isk for TSPs seeing their rich in R/L peers advance to more fun stuff more quickly. * Renters being asked to stump up SPs by nullsec powerblocks. * FOTM becoming even more of an issue as TSPs allow instant access to whatever new cancerous crap everyone wants to fly. * T3s becoming even more ubiquitous and obsoleting more ships as TSPs will render SP penalty for ship loss redundant. Just a couple off top of my head You'll always be able to make your own for 1/4 PLEX + extractors. There is literally no way prices will raise above that.
More SP doesn't mean more fun. What is peers, since almost everybody starts on their own? Also, who cares?
Renters pay ISK or SP, it will be the exact same thing since they'll be interchangable.
Why is FOTM an issue? Ships are cancerous when they're unbalenced, not when a number of people choose to fly them.
LOL at SP loss actually limiting T3 use.
Look, you're free to not like this proposal, but what you write are sloppy predictions that simply will not happen. Wait and see if you don't believe me.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 23:40:35 -
[4859] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: I do not understand what you mean by this?
1. Don't tell people everything you know =)
About social aspect
I can't find any major disagreements but we still have opposite opinions about new system. It must be time gap. I must noitice that I don't really care about vets because they have advantage and expirince so they sould work out. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 23:50:53 -
[4860] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:Devs post about pestigeCCP Terminus wrote: On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.
It is still not the same. That is like saying that in any competition there will be the 1st place for the ones who used doping and separate 1st place for those who did not. Top 3, 5, eventually 10 matters for "top"prestige, no one will care about #15 but he did not use "cheats". Still the number of people who care about it as prestige could easily be much bigger, added explanation below. Edit: Which does not mean there will be no unhappy top 100 players that got out of that list. Hard cap should be set at like 100 mils or something like that (or some amount where people already consider themselves to be "achieved' by the SP they have. And yes, that means nothing in terms of skills yet plenty are proud of their sp as accomplishment. "Cheaters don't permit for race" that is main rule of challanges. Simply don't count them. It is not simple as that. Because if they are spending tons of isk/money to get there they do not want to be considered as such. After all they are just using option which they were provided with, within the rules. And they want to claim their top positions fair and square. While on the other hand it is not fair to the ones who have been working on those positions for years, to be jumped over simply because someone is richer. Devs showed that they want to support vets in terms of prestige. Any wish =) |
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
155
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 23:54:53 -
[4861] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: I do not understand what you mean by this?
1. Don't tell people everything you know =) About social aspectI can't find any major disagreements but we still have opposite opinions about new system. It must be time gap. I must noitice that I don't really care about vets because they have advantage and expirince so they should work out.
Haha, well played sir, well played :D
Could be time gap and me being around from the start and not liking the current direction as I think it sends wrong messages to the players. And everything else is not that important, players create content within the sandbox.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
156
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 23:56:57 -
[4862] - Quote
General Lootit wrote: Devs showed that they want to support vets in terms of prestige. Any wish =)
Not really, as it is now everyone who wants can claim that away from them. It is just more expensive due to diminishing returns, but still affordable for rich people (ingame or rl rich). As long as there is no hard cap, their mechanism fails to protect.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 01:09:27 -
[4863] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:ColdBeauty wrote:Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:CCP probably thinks they will attract them with new features, but they do not realize side effects. Can you list any problems that aren't.. veterans getting the option of alts it plausibly being ineffective ? * Rich Veterans pushing the price out of reach of new guys because of diminishing returns causing them to buy up vast amounts of TSPs. * New players that can't afford R/L cash and unable to effectively grind enough isk for TSPs seeing their rich in R/L peers advance to more fun stuff more quickly. * Renters being asked to stump up SPs by nullsec powerblocks. * FOTM becoming even more of an issue as TSPs allow instant access to whatever new cancerous crap everyone wants to fly. * T3s becoming even more ubiquitous and obsoleting more ships as TSPs will render SP penalty for ship loss redundant. Just a couple off top of my head You'll always be able to make your own for 1/4 PLEX + extractors. There is literally no way prices will raise above that. More SP doesn't mean more fun. What is peers, since almost everybody starts on their own? Also, who cares? Renters pay ISK or SP, it will be the exact same thing since they'll be interchangable. Why is FOTM an issue? Ships are cancerous when they're unbalenced, not when a number of people choose to fly them. LOL at SP loss actually limiting T3 use. Look, you're free to not like this proposal, but what you write are sloppy predictions that simply will not happen. Wait and see if you don't believe me.
These are not predictions, they are possible outcomes, and it seems you are the one using a crystal ball...
Quote:that simply will not happen
You cannot possibly state that with confidence, to do so is at best naivety, at worst complete hubris. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
205
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 01:15:45 -
[4864] - Quote
There you go again Quoting,Nice to get a poll going here to see what the actual sub base has to say.[/quote]
yes, quoting. that's what you do when you reply to a point. you quote the point that has been made, then you reply to it.[/quote]
Its a shame when your asked a direct question you can never get an answer from you.[/quote]
i've answered every question i've been asked. multiple times.[/quote]
Answer this one then.
When are you gonna resign from CCP?
|
Dave Stark
7815
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 05:57:45 -
[4865] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote: Answer this one then.
When are you gonna resign from CCP?
Lol so mad.
Also ccp seagull said this feature is the future of eve yesterday at eve vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
120
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 06:46:47 -
[4866] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Ask broad questions and you'll get more than one answer. Ask specific questions and you'll get no answer. Just like asking for refutation on criticizing game design through research. Edit: Quote:Because some character classes or skill sets can easily defeat characters of other classes or skills in many MMORPGs, developers should consider a skill-point character development system over a class-based system to balance play and to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win.
As i said before - You were not forced to play the sand box design you chose it, Now you dont like it you want a level design structure implementing to suit your playstyle.
Try elite,freespace or kerbal or just campingshite where you dont have to worry about anything apart from your own personal skill level.
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
N00B-SAIB0T
MK Financial
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 07:00:05 -
[4867] - Quote
The Dev Blog touched a little on being able to rename a character. Here's what I read:
"That part really hits home for me because when I made that jump from 15mil SP to 33mil SP I went from being called GÇÿTurbo DinosaurGÇÖ to being called GÇÿKil2GÇÖ. Puke."
But it didn't go into any more detail other than that. Is being able to rename characters going to be a certain feature now? I assume it will only happen after a character sale.
The obvious flaw with that is that scammers will just transfer a character to another one of their accounts and be able to wipe it clean with a name change, correct? No need to sell it off or biomass it and start over. It doesn't bother me but just pointing that out.
Would love to read some more information on name change as that is apparently a BIG thing IMO. |
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
743
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 07:00:23 -
[4868] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: Answer this one then.
When are you gonna resign from CCP?
Lol so mad. Also ccp seagull said this feature is imprtant to the future of the future of eve yesterday at eve vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening. Yes. There is a big chance this will indeed happen. There is a far bigger chance it will not achieve the expected goals.
CCP has an amazing track record for getting it wrong.
New icons New map Sov lasers The list goes on.
This whole proposal is based on the existing player base being willing to spend isk to sell SP. If they don't participate in large enough numbers, the whole proposal is no more than hot air - Without a balloon to hold it together.
Doesn't matter how much CCP Seagull believes it is important, without player support it will lead to nothing.
Players I have spoken to about this - Most common responses were; Spend isk to sell my SP LOL. Let the noobs do it the same way we had to.
Maybe if CCP weren't asking existing players to foot the bill for this it may receive a better response.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4240
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 07:51:25 -
[4869] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Spend isk to sell my SP LOL. What does this even mean?
Either you spend ISK and buy SP.
Or you sell SP and get ISK. Unless you mean that you'll have to buy an extractor first, but that doesn't matter since when you sell the SP packets you'll get much more ISK than the cost of an extractor. Same as spending ISK to buy a module in Jita, then selling it in Ichoriya for +30%.
What you don't seem to understand is that SP will become a commodity. It will go from something you had NO WAY TO GET on any single character except by waiting RL time, to something that can be bought and sold anytime.
It won't be 'your SP' anymore! It will be just SP. Like an unpackaged Thorax in your hangar: it's not 'yours', it's just a Thorax temporarily in your possession. You can sell it, then buy another 10, whatever. You have no reason to cling on to it like it's the most precious space dildo in the world.
Yes, diminishing returns and buy/sell price gap yada yada, but going from 'incredibly scarce resource (for any single player)' to 'tradable commodity' is a huge change.
Since on one side (demand), everyone more or less has a use for SP and on the other (supply), anyone can generate SP just by having an active account, it's silly to think there won't be a huge market for SP once this change kicks in.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
51
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 08:13:56 -
[4870] - Quote
Tess Rain, in case if you reading this, thank you for your support through past pages. |
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4240
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 08:34:01 -
[4871] - Quote
ColdBeauty wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:ColdBeauty wrote:* Rich Veterans pushing the price out of reach of new guys because of diminishing returns causing them to buy up vast amounts of TSPs.
* New players that can't afford R/L cash and unable to effectively grind enough isk for TSPs seeing their rich in R/L peers advance to more fun stuff more quickly.
* Renters being asked to stump up SPs by nullsec powerblocks.
* FOTM becoming even more of an issue as TSPs allow instant access to whatever new cancerous crap everyone wants to fly.
* T3s becoming even more ubiquitous and obsoleting more ships as TSPs will render SP penalty for ship loss redundant.
Just a couple off top of my head You'll always be able to make your own for 1/4 PLEX + extractors. There is literally no way prices will raise above that. More SP doesn't mean more fun. What is peers, since almost everybody starts on their own? Also, who cares? Renters pay ISK or SP, it will be the exact same thing since they'll be interchangable. Why is FOTM an issue? Ships are cancerous when they're unbalenced, not when a number of people choose to fly them. LOL at SP loss actually limiting T3 use. Look, you're free to not like this proposal, but what you write are sloppy predictions that simply will not happen. Wait and see if you don't believe me. These are not predictions, they are possible outcomes, and it seems you are the one using a crystal ball... Quote:that simply will not happen You cannot possibly state that with confidence, to do so is at best naivety, at worst complete hubris. Ok, a very small part of what you wrote is opinion, which I concede cannot be flatly proven right or wrong (e.g. how the majority of new players will react to the possibility to spend $ on PLEX to get ISK to buy SP).
But the majority of your post is just misinformed:
. No way SP prices will rise above 1/4 PLEX + Extractor, this is simple market logic
. SP packets can be bought for ISK. There's no reason for space landlords to ask for SP packets instead of ISK, since ISK can buy them both SP packets and anything else that is freely traded in Jita. ISK will always be a better rental fee than SP packets.
. FOTM is a balance issue, sames as T3s. SP makes no difference. Certain ships being significantly more effective than others is a problem because it limits variety and interesting gameplay. The solution is balancing the ships, not having SP or ISK barriers (slightly) limiting player choice of ships
Hope it's clearer now.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Jared Khanar
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 08:37:39 -
[4872] - Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZSCaswtcsA
The eve vegas 2015 keynote. A lot of informations about citadels and how they will be used, fitted, etc. (7:35 - 21:54) I-¦m waiting for the moment new skills to operate this structures and their new introduced modules may get announced. Sadly i nioticed no informations on skills in the keynote. But some time ago a devblog stated "we will introduce new modules because we don-¦t want to mess with the modules for ships" or something like that, if i remember right. in this contect it would also make sense to introduce new skills.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPbMwne4X1Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIms0J9-qSY
really good changes that may drag a lot of players into the game eve rts +1
well, if there will be new skills for all this, noone will be able to use the content immediately, so the sp trading proposal tries to provide something absolutly necessary - and cash in on that.
A a lot of bigger alliances may need to rearange the skills of their alts. Or create new one-¦s as there will be no characters skilled as needed in the character bazaar. :)
Capitals may also become a "big thing" again. New players entering eve because of this would have to wait a long time until they would be able to play what they came for.
All these consequences for demand, supply and the motivation to spend cash for gameplay... :)
*waiting for the next devblogs* |
Dave Stark
7837
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 09:29:47 -
[4873] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:CCP has an amazing track record for getting it wrong.
you are aware you're talking about a company that created a game that has survived for over 12 years (i think we're at 12 years now aren't we?), that doesn't happen by accident. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
122
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 09:54:05 -
[4874] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:CCP has an amazing track record for getting it wrong. you are aware you're talking about a company that created a game that has survived for over 12 years (i think we're at 12 years now aren't we?), that doesn't happen by accident.
Yes thats very true, and still had a good retention ratio until incarna, so that points to theres nothing at all wrong with the game but the decisions that changed the game at that point.
Changing the goalposts always has unforseen circumstances and CCP has made some monumental ****ups in that department.
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
464
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 10:10:52 -
[4875] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Roughly 70 characters are traded per day, not per month. Something like 25000 a year give or take.
Some more data: - Most traded characters are 50 million SP or lower. - A good portion of trades are to newer players (measured by new customers not just new accounts). So where are they? Good portion of trades are to newer players, 25k total is not small numer here. EvE should be constantly growing, it's the opposite. I don't think SP is a problem here.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
160
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 10:18:41 -
[4876] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: Answer this one then.
When are you gonna resign from CCP?
Lol so mad. Also ccp seagull said this feature is imprtant to the future of the future of eve yesterday at eve vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening.
Of course it is happening, it was clear from the start by the lack of the communication of CCP with players here. They did not want to discuss about it and to see what to adjust, they have decided on it and they do not care what players have to say :shocker:.
Ah well, guess the players will send the message via subscriptions.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Dave Stark
7837
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 10:21:01 -
[4877] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:They did not want to discuss about it and to see what to adjust
funny, seagull said the exact opposite. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
161
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 10:39:43 -
[4878] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:They did not want to discuss about it and to see what to adjust funny, seagull said the exact opposite.
Funny, lack of their posting here says opposite to that.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
60
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 10:40:36 -
[4879] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: Answer this one then.
When are you gonna resign from CCP?
Lol so mad. Also ccp seagull said this feature is imprtant to the future of the future of eve yesterday at eve vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening. Of course it is happening, it was clear from the start by the lack of the communication of CCP with players here. They did not want to discuss about it and to see what to adjust, they have decided on it and they do not care what players have to say :shocker:. Ah well, guess the players will send the message via subscriptions.
We all praying but god leaves us. Do you know why? thats why
P.S. Today is day to make some noise =) |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
161
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 10:42:04 -
[4880] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: Answer this one then.
When are you gonna resign from CCP?
Lol so mad. Also ccp seagull said this feature is imprtant to the future of the future of eve yesterday at eve vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening. Of course it is happening, it was clear from the start by the lack of the communication of CCP with players here. They did not want to discuss about it and to see what to adjust, they have decided on it and they do not care what players have to say :shocker:. Ah well, guess the players will send the message via subscriptions. We all praying but god leaves us. Do you know why? thats whyP.S. Today is day to make some noise =)
How is that different from any of previous days for you? :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
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Kaivar Lancer
Placid Peace Corps
696
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 10:42:32 -
[4881] - Quote
Down with socialism! Let the SP market be free! |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
60
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 10:45:16 -
[4882] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: Answer this one then.
When are you gonna resign from CCP?
Lol so mad. Also ccp seagull said this feature is imprtant to the future of the future of eve yesterday at eve vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening. Of course it is happening, it was clear from the start by the lack of the communication of CCP with players here. They did not want to discuss about it and to see what to adjust, they have decided on it and they do not care what players have to say :shocker:. Ah well, guess the players will send the message via subscriptions. We all praying but god leaves us. Do you know why? thats whyP.S. Today is day to make some noise =) How is that different from any of previous days for you? :D Less arguments and more fun. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
161
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 10:47:18 -
[4883] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:
Of course it is happening, it was clear from the start by the lack of the communication of CCP with players here. They did not want to discuss about it and to see what to adjust, they have decided on it and they do not care what players have to say :shocker:.
Ah well, guess the players will send the message via subscriptions.
We all praying but god leaves us. Do you know why? thats whyP.S. Today is day to make some noise =) How is that different from any of previous days for you? :D Less arguments and more fun.
He would need to have arguments in the first place for that. And I am sure he had plenty of his own fun with trolling :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
60
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 10:53:50 -
[4884] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:
Of course it is happening, it was clear from the start by the lack of the communication of CCP with players here. They did not want to discuss about it and to see what to adjust, they have decided on it and they do not care what players have to say :shocker:.
Ah well, guess the players will send the message via subscriptions.
We all praying but god leaves us. Do you know why? thats whyP.S. Today is day to make some noise =) How is that different from any of previous days for you? :D Less arguments and more fun. He would need to have arguments in the first place for that. And I am sure he had plenty of his own fun with trolling :) I spoke for myselfe and not for "him". But watching vets vs noobs should be funny also. |
Dave Stark
7837
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 10:54:35 -
[4885] - Quote
i still find it funny how it's "trolling" to disagree with him and point out the flaws in his argument. honestly not sure he understands what a troll is. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
60
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 10:55:34 -
[4886] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:what a troll is. 1) He must be green |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
465
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 10:58:22 -
[4887] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:If it was a done deal we'd have put the dev blog out when it was going to be shipped. The whole point of the dev blog is to gather feedback and assess. The whole point of this dev blog was "how" it should be implemented not "if". Be more precise next time, it was done deal all the time.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 10:59:36 -
[4888] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:Most importatnt value is blown ship within first month and not "integrate within society". I joined small corp but I'm still soloing(for real). So in what group am I? Data need to be interpreted. That is your opinion. I think that in MMO games, socialization and integration have quite bigger aspect than the ship which is inevitably going to explode :) Do you have any concrete reason to say this, especially any research?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
124
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 11:03:17 -
[4889] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:what a troll is. 1) He must be green One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to
the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks, with no substance or relevence to back them up as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue.
-ó-+-é, -¦-é-+ -+-¦-+-¦-Ç-¦-+-+-+ -+ -ü-+-+-+-¦-é-¦-+-î-+-+ ( -ç-é-+ -å-¦-+-î , -¦-¦-¦ -+-Ç-¦-¦-+-+-+, -¦-ï-é-î -ü-¦-+-+-ü-é-+-Å-é-¦-+-î-+-+-¦ -Ç-¦-+-¦-+-¦-ç-¦-+-+-¦ ) -+-¦-ç-+-+-¦-¦-é -¦-Ç-¦-â-+-¦-+-é -¦ -+-¦-+-¦-Ç-¦, -¦-+-é-+-Ç-¦-Å -¦-é-¦-¦-â-¦-é -¦-Ç-â-¦-+-à -+-¦ -ä-+-Ç-â-+-¦ -¦-¦-+ -¦-¦-¦-+-¦-+--+-+-¦-+ -+-Ç-+-ü-+-â-ê-+-¦-¦-+-+-Å
-¦-Ç-¦-â-+-¦-+-é-ï , -+-Ç-¦-¦-+-+-¦-¦-+-+-ï-¦ -ü-¦-+-+-à -ü-¦-¦-Ç-ü-é-+-+-¦-+-¦. -P-+ -¦-ï-+-+-¦-¦-é -é-¦-¦-+-¦ -¦-Ç-¦-â-+-¦-+-é -ç-¦-Ç-¦-+ -+-ü-+-+-+-î-+-+-¦-¦-+-+-¦ -Ç-¦-ü-ü-ç-+-é-¦-+-+-ï-¦ -+-¦ -+-Ç-¦-¦-â-¦-¦-¦-¦-¦-+-+-Å -+-¦-+-¦-¦-¦-+-+-¦ , -¦-¦-+ -¦-¦-ë-¦-ü-é-¦-¦ -+-+-+ relevence , -ç-é-+-¦-ï -+-+-¦-¦-¦-Ç-¦-¦-é-î -+-à , -¦ -é-¦-¦-¦-¦
-ü-+-+-+-+-ï -+-â-¦-ç-+-+-¦ -¦-Ç-¦-â-+-¦-+-é-ï , -¦-+-é-+-Ç-ï-¦ -+-+ -+-ü-+-+-+-î-+-â-¦-é, -ç-é-+-¦-ï -+-Ç-+-ü-é-+ -+-+-¦-¦-¦-¦-é-î -Ç-¦-ê-¦-+-+-Å -ü-â-é-+ -¦-+-+-Ç-+-ü-¦ .
If find that strawman part rather fitting for another on here too
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
60
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 11:08:25 -
[4890] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:what a troll is. 1) He must be green One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks, with no substance or relevence to back them up as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue. -ó-+-é, -¦-é-+ -+-¦-+-¦-Ç-¦-+-+-+ -+ -ü-+-+-+-¦-é-¦-+-î-+-+ ( -ç-é-+ -å-¦-+-î , -¦-¦-¦ -+-Ç-¦-¦-+-+-+, -¦-ï-é-î -ü-¦-+-+-ü-é-+-Å-é-¦-+-î-+-+-¦ -Ç-¦-+-¦-+-¦-ç-¦-+-+-¦ ) -+-¦-ç-+-+-¦-¦-é -¦-Ç-¦-â-+-¦-+-é -¦ -+-¦-+-¦-Ç-¦, -¦-+-é-+-Ç-¦-Å -¦-é-¦-¦-â-¦-é -¦-Ç-â-¦-+-à -+-¦ -ä-+-Ç-â-+-¦ -¦-¦-+ -¦-¦-¦-+-¦-+--+-+-¦-+ -+-Ç-+-ü-+-â-ê-+-¦-¦-+-+-Å -¦-Ç-¦-â-+-¦-+-é-ï , -+-Ç-¦-¦-+-+-¦-¦-+-+-ï-¦ -ü-¦-+-+-à -ü-¦-¦-Ç-ü-é-+-+-¦-+-¦. -P-+ -¦-ï-+-+-¦-¦-é -é-¦-¦-+-¦ -¦-Ç-¦-â-+-¦-+-é -ç-¦-Ç-¦-+ -+-ü-+-+-+-î-+-+-¦-¦-+-+-¦ -Ç-¦-ü-ü-ç-+-é-¦-+-+-ï-¦ -+-¦ -+-Ç-¦-¦-â-¦-¦-¦-¦-¦-+-+-Å -+-¦-+-¦-¦-¦-+-+-¦ , -¦-¦-+ -¦-¦-ë-¦-ü-é-¦-¦ -+-+-+ relevence , -ç-é-+-¦-ï -+-+-¦-¦-¦-Ç-¦-¦-é-î -+-à , -¦ -é-¦-¦-¦-¦ -ü-+-+-+-+-ï -+-â-¦-ç-+-+-¦ -¦-Ç-¦-â-+-¦-+-é-ï , -¦-+-é-+-Ç-ï-¦ -+-+ -+-ü-+-+-+-î-+-â-¦-é, -ç-é-+-¦-ï -+-Ç-+-ü-é-+ -+-+-¦-¦-¦-¦-é-î -Ç-¦-ê-¦-+-+-Å -ü-â-é-+ -¦-+-+-Ç-+-ü-¦ . If find that strawman part rather fitting for another on here too It was sarcasm See I don't even mention that you need take some Russian lessons |
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 11:10:44 -
[4891] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Ask broad questions and you'll get more than one answer. Ask specific questions and you'll get no answer. Just like asking for refutation on criticizing game design through research. Edit: Quote:Because some character classes or skill sets can easily defeat characters of other classes or skills in many MMORPGs, developers should consider a skill-point character development system over a class-based system to balance play and to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win. As i said before - You were not forced to play the sand box design you chose it, Now you dont like it you want a level design structure implementing to suit your playstyle. Try elite,freespace or kerbal or just campingshite where you dont have to worry about anything apart from your own personal skill level. EDIT: Also looking at that quote above it clearly states, character classes, hanging fire FC we got a hot drop of mages incoming in 15 ... roger roger Druids, Dk's deploy the shields ....... Were all pilots you Moron. Or are you saying that characters classes / hull classes - so now your inferring that we should lock out huge portions of the game because because the frigates = rogues / stealth / fast / quite powerful for there size but as strong as a chocolate fire guard.The same frigate at level 10 still couldnt engage a level 100 frigate and beat it though. There is no way to fit your logic to this game because its unique doesnt apply oh its a sandbox. After thinking on it , got another way - big open space surrounded by a 10 foot fence drop a kitten into it / thats the new guy, Now drop the lion in there too / thats the 80+ mill sp player - How do you propose we balance that in a sandbox game design. "How?" It's already stated: removing SP. The remainder of that post is complete blither. Why do you get to just say that a study doesn't apply over an actual game designer and a scientific hypothesis?
What about "the game should provide an equal opportunity (to win)" is not making sense? It should. It's a really simple statement. SP provides an inopportune playing field and thus detracts from character ownership, social identity, and game loyalty. This is also evidenced with the PCU.
Enjoy.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
124
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 11:25:13 -
[4892] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Ask broad questions and you'll get more than one answer. Ask specific questions and you'll get no answer. Just like asking for refutation on criticizing game design through research. Edit: Quote:Because some character classes or skill sets can easily defeat characters of other classes or skills in many MMORPGs, developers should consider a skill-point character development system over a class-based system to balance play and to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win. As i said before - You were not forced to play the sand box design you chose it, Now you dont like it you want a level design structure implementing to suit your playstyle. Try elite,freespace or kerbal or just campingshite where you dont have to worry about anything apart from your own personal skill level. EDIT: Also looking at that quote above it clearly states, character classes, hanging fire FC we got a hot drop of mages incoming in 15 ... roger roger Druids, Dk's deploy the shields ....... Were all pilots you Moron. Or are you saying that characters classes / hull classes - so now your inferring that we should lock out huge portions of the game because because the frigates = rogues / stealth / fast / quite powerful for there size but as strong as a chocolate fire guard.The same frigate at level 10 still couldnt engage a level 100 frigate and beat it though. There is no way to fit your logic to this game because its unique doesnt apply oh its a sandbox. After thinking on it , got another way - big open space surrounded by a 10 foot fence drop a kitten into it / thats the new guy, Now drop the lion in there too / thats the 80+ mill sp player - How do you propose we balance that in a sandbox game design. "How?" It's already stated: removing SP. The remainder of that post is complete blither. Why do you get to just say that a study doesn't apply over an actual game designer and a scientific hypothesis? What about "the game should provide an equal opportunity (to win)" is not making sense? It should. It's a really simple statement. SP provides an inopportune playing field and thus detracts from character ownership, social identity, and game loyalty. This is also evidenced with the PCU. Enjoy. How can you fit sandbox game design into a level by level design - How could you turn EvE into campingshite without basically calling it EvE 2 - Heres for all who couldnt hack the first game.
You have not shown me a single study on EvE, You motivation BS, what motivates the depressed man to get up in a morning, what motivates the businessman, what motivates you. They all have a commonality find a goal / work towards it / celebrate small successes. Theyre not the same goals though. Show me a study strawman.
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 11:28:06 -
[4893] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:How can you fit sandbox game design into a level by level design - How could you turn EvE into campingshite without basically calling it EvE 2 - Heres for all who couldnt hack the first game.
You have not shown me a single study on EvE, You motivation BS, what motivates the depressed man to get up in a morning, what motivates the businessman, what motivates you. They all have a commonality find a goal / work towards it / celebrate small successes. Theyre not the same goals though. Show me a study strawman. Are you ignoring the previous post?
Here's the study. Maybe it would help actually reading it. That specific text is on page 25, with some of the precedent on page 24.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
124
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 11:32:42 -
[4894] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:How can you fit sandbox game design into a level by level design - How could you turn EvE into campingshite without basically calling it EvE 2 - Heres for all who couldnt hack the first game.
You have not shown me a single study on EvE, You motivation BS, what motivates the depressed man to get up in a morning, what motivates the businessman, what motivates you. They all have a commonality find a goal / work towards it / celebrate small successes. Theyre not the same goals though. Show me a study strawman. Are you ignoring the previous post? Here's the study. Maybe it would help actually reading it. That specific text is on page 25, with some of the precedent on page 24.
I think dave has covered that with apples and oranges, a case study of EvE's mechanics Vs the FPS's Vs Level by Level i'd gladly look at but not that useless shite you try to keep pushing as fact, pure baseless
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 11:37:31 -
[4895] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:How can you fit sandbox game design into a level by level design - How could you turn EvE into campingshite without basically calling it EvE 2 - Heres for all who couldnt hack the first game.
You have not shown me a single study on EvE, You motivation BS, what motivates the depressed man to get up in a morning, what motivates the businessman, what motivates you. They all have a commonality find a goal / work towards it / celebrate small successes. Theyre not the same goals though. Show me a study strawman. Are you ignoring the previous post? Here's the study. Maybe it would help actually reading it. That specific text is on page 25, with some of the precedent on page 24. I think dave has covered that with apples and oranges, a case study of EvE's mechanics Vs the FPS's Vs Level by Level i'd gladly look at but not that useless shite you try to keep pushing as fact, pure baseless So.. trying to pull FPS in to an MMO study, you must have nothing to say.
I asked a simple question, "What about 'the game should provide an equal opportunity (to win)' is not making sense?"
If potential EVE subs seem like they can't be competitive in a sandbox, why pay? ..Why play?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
125
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 11:46:54 -
[4896] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:How can you fit sandbox game design into a level by level design - How could you turn EvE into campingshite without basically calling it EvE 2 - Heres for all who couldnt hack the first game.
You have not shown me a single study on EvE, You motivation BS, what motivates the depressed man to get up in a morning, what motivates the businessman, what motivates you. They all have a commonality find a goal / work towards it / celebrate small successes. Theyre not the same goals though. Show me a study strawman. Are you ignoring the previous post? Here's the study. Maybe it would help actually reading it. That specific text is on page 25, with some of the precedent on page 24. I think dave has covered that with apples and oranges, a case study of EvE's mechanics Vs the FPS's Vs Level by Level i'd gladly look at but not that useless shite you try to keep pushing as fact, pure baseless So.. trying to pull FPS in to an MMO study, you must have nothing to say. I asked a simple question, "What about 'the game should provide an equal opportunity (to win)' is not making sense?" If potential EVE subs seem like they can't be competitive in a sandbox, why pay? ..Why play?
So your basing this study on EvE, this case study was done in 2012, what would your arguement be in that year when EvE's subs were still up.
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
161
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 11:52:23 -
[4897] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i still find it funny how it's "trolling" to disagree with him and point out the flaws in his argument. honestly not sure he understands what a troll is.
It would have been great if you really provided any counter arguments ;) Since you just spammed with twisting out, taking things out of context, without even reading all my posts etc etc it is classic trolling.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 11:58:34 -
[4898] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:So.. trying to pull FPS in to an MMO study, you must have nothing to say.
I asked a simple question, "What about 'the game should provide an equal opportunity (to win)' is not making sense?"
If potential EVE subs seem like they can't be competitive in a sandbox, why pay? ..Why play? So your basing this study on EvE, this case study was done in 2012, what would your arguement be in that year when EvE's subs were still up. If I showed you a motivation study, would you say I'm basing that on EVE, and point me to a PCU amount? For what point? You're not actually refuting anything, nor is the reply technically relevant; and that's because EVE's sub count was still relatively low for its feature list (and, overall, in contrast with other MMOs, plausibly even other sandboxes).
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Dave Stark
7837
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 12:00:22 -
[4899] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i still find it funny how it's "trolling" to disagree with him and point out the flaws in his argument. honestly not sure he understands what a troll is. It would have been great if you really provided any counter arguments ;) Since you just spammed with twisting out, taking things out of context, without even reading all my posts etc etc it is classic trolling.
and yet i still contributed more than you to the discussion. you should be slightly embarrassed by that. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
125
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 12:04:43 -
[4900] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:So.. trying to pull FPS in to an MMO study, you must have nothing to say.
I asked a simple question, "What about 'the game should provide an equal opportunity (to win)' is not making sense?"
If potential EVE subs seem like they can't be competitive in a sandbox, why pay? ..Why play? So your basing this study on EvE, this case study was done in 2012, what would your arguement be in that year when EvE's subs were still up. If I showed you a motivation study, would you say I'm basing that on EVE, and point me to a PCU amount? For what point? You're not actually refuting anything, nor is the reply technically relevant; and that's because EVE's sub count was still relatively low for its feature list (and, overall, in contrast with other MMOs, plausibly even other sandboxes).
why change the subject back to motivation, It's a 2012 study subs were fine in 2012 where is your arguement now ?
Its for you to tell me why this study has any basis for relavence over EvE if your main bone of contention is the subs and they were fine then regarding any such loyalties in game.
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
125
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 12:16:01 -
[4901] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:So.. trying to pull FPS in to an MMO study, you must have nothing to say.
I asked a simple question, "What about 'the game should provide an equal opportunity (to win)' is not making sense?"
If potential EVE subs seem like they can't be competitive in a sandbox, why pay? ..Why play? So your basing this study on EvE, this case study was done in 2012, what would your arguement be in that year when EvE's subs were still up. If I showed you a motivation study, would you say I'm basing that on EVE, and point me to a PCU amount? For what point? You're not actually refuting anything, nor is the reply technically relevant; and that's because EVE's sub count was still relatively low for its feature list (and, overall, in contrast with other MMOs, plausibly even other sandboxes). why change the subject back to motivation, It's a 2012 study subs were fine in 2012 where is your arguement now ? Its for you to tell me why this study has any basis for relavence over EvE if your main bone of contention is the subs and they were fine then regarding any such loyalties in game.
Sweet nuggets in a Bun ...... Have you actually read this BS.
The time and effort an MMORPG player invests in improving the ability to manipulate a character produces feelings of control and ultimately strong psychological ownership toward the character, which positively influences the playerGÇÖs behavior and perception as well as generating stronger levels of e-loyalty toward the game. In other words, the ability to control an MMORPG character directly produces efficacy and pleasure, and also induces psychological ownership, which in turn leads to feelings of stewardship and e-loyalty to the MMORPG.
Time - Effort .....
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 12:23:33 -
[4902] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:So.. trying to pull FPS in to an MMO study, you must have nothing to say.
I asked a simple question, "What about 'the game should provide an equal opportunity (to win)' is not making sense?"
If potential EVE subs seem like they can't be competitive in a sandbox, why pay? ..Why play? So your basing this study on EvE, this case study was done in 2012, what would your arguement be in that year when EvE's subs were still up. If I showed you a motivation study, would you say I'm basing that on EVE, and point me to a PCU amount? For what point? You're not actually refuting anything, nor is the reply technically relevant; and that's because EVE's sub count was still relatively low for its feature list (and, overall, in contrast with other MMOs, plausibly even other sandboxes). why change the subject back to motivation, It's a 2012 study subs were fine in 2012 where is your arguement now ? Its for you to tell me why this study has any basis for relavence over EvE if your main bone of contention is the subs and they were fine then regarding any such loyalties in game. The correlation has nothing to do with 2012, but how SP reduces character effectiveness (depth and diversity), character relevance (by promoting multiple alts and undermining progression and performance), and social identity (by making the character worthless for plausibly a large majority of what a corp would do).
If you can't answer the questions, why respond?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
125
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 12:32:28 -
[4903] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:So.. trying to pull FPS in to an MMO study, you must have nothing to say.
I asked a simple question, "What about 'the game should provide an equal opportunity (to win)' is not making sense?"
If potential EVE subs seem like they can't be competitive in a sandbox, why pay? ..Why play? So your basing this study on EvE, this case study was done in 2012, what would your arguement be in that year when EvE's subs were still up. If I showed you a motivation study, would you say I'm basing that on EVE, and point me to a PCU amount? For what point? You're not actually refuting anything, nor is the reply technically relevant; and that's because EVE's sub count was still relatively low for its feature list (and, overall, in contrast with other MMOs, plausibly even other sandboxes). why change the subject back to motivation, It's a 2012 study subs were fine in 2012 where is your arguement now ? Its for you to tell me why this study has any basis for relavence over EvE if your main bone of contention is the subs and they were fine then regarding any such loyalties in game. The correlation has nothing to do with 2012, but how SP reduces character effectiveness (depth and diversity), character relevance (by promoting multiple alts and undermining progression and performance), and social identity (by making the character worthless for plausibly a large majority of what a corp would do). If you can't answer the questions, why respond?
Look above the study answered the question which kind of nullified what you trying to say in the first place, the skillpoints are time - effort ergo the more you put into it the more you will achieve
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
746
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 12:43:08 -
[4904] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:Spend isk to sell my SP LOL. What does this even mean? Either you spend ISK and buy SP. Or you sell SP and get ISK. Unless you mean that you'll have to buy an extractor first, but that doesn't matter since when you sell the SP packets you'll get much more ISK than the cost of an extractor. Same as spending ISK to buy a module in Jita, then selling it in Ichoriya for +30%. What you don't seem to understand is that SP will become a commodity. It will go from something you had NO WAY TO GET on any single character except by waiting RL time, to something that can be bought and sold anytime. It won't be 'your SP' anymore! It will be just SP. Like a packaged Thorax in your hangar: it's not 'yours', it's just a Thorax temporarily in your possession. You can sell it, then buy another 10, whatever. You have no reason to cling on to it like it's the most precious space dildo in the world. Yes, diminishing returns and buy/sell price gap yada yada, but going from 'incredibly scarce resource (for any single player)' to 'tradable commodity' is a huge change. Since on one side (demand), everyone more or less has a use for SP and on the other (supply), anyone can generate SP just by having an active account, it's silly to think there won't be a huge market for SP once this change kicks in. That is IF the SP packets sell - Demand is likely to not be as high as you imagine. 500 to 600 mil isk for 500k SP instantly or put that isk toward a plex and get that SP in a week? Now if a new player has 5 or 10 bil laying around buying SP may be worth it. He will pay a premium price for it..
The group who could afford the SP packages is all but excluded from using them due to diminishing returns - This is the same group who is being asked to sell SP so others can get skills they have to wait a month to train. Why should I have to wait 27 days for battleship 5 when some rookie with cash can train it up in 5 mins using my unwanted SP. NB; Eve is a very selfish game, players aren't going to sell SP as a commodity cheap to allow some new guy to out skill them because he has money.
Sp will only become a commodity, if players are willing to turn it into one. If there is not a decent profit to be made - It won't be available. It is one of those things, for it to be cost effective for new players to use there has to be an excess available to keep prices down - If those selling it can't make a decent profit, why sell it.
SP for sale is not an unlimited commodity, there are only a certain amount of players active in the game who would be willing to part with SP. Farming SP is not viable if prices are to be kept down.
Bottom line (for me and many others I have spoken to) CCP is asking us to sell SP to get isk in return and end up with less SP. I don't need isk, I have more than enough. I would like to get battleship 5 instantly but am not prepared to pay 10X what someone with less than half my SP can do it for.. And, I might decide to use those mining skills one day (cyno on a tanky procurer, great bait)
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 12:54:00 -
[4905] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Look above the study answered the question which kind of nullified what you trying to say in the first place, the skillpoints are time - effort ergo the more you put into it the more you will achieve You can't just pick a sentence and say it refutes every other point in the study.
SP, especially for a fresh character, has very little to do with effort. There are also still all the problems already mentioned, which come from SP, like about the equal opportunity to win a battle. Underplaying what a fresh sub can do through nothing he can actually improve (for his own character) -- especially effectiveness and diversity -- not only undermines learning and exploration, but also creativity and interest.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
60
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 13:03:15 -
[4906] - Quote
Obsidian Crowe wrote:Please god no. You will make EVE play to win
Good example how this thread turning players into prayers. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
125
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 13:17:19 -
[4907] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Look above the study answered the question which kind of nullified what you trying to say in the first place, the skillpoints are time - effort ergo the more you put into it the more you will achieve You can't just pick a sentence and say it refutes every other point in the study. SP, especially for a fresh character, has very little to do with effort. There are also still all the problems already mentioned, which come from SP, like about the equal opportunity to win a battle. Underplaying what a fresh sub can do through nothing he can actually improve (for his own character) -- especially effectiveness and diversity -- not only undermines learning and exploration, but also creativity and interest.
When thats in there i can :
Social Identity and E-Loyalty So now we dont just have actual games involved in the study group but : Other found that the group identification could occur in the absence of formal membership [67]. For example, electronic vendors, such as Amazon.com, Google, and eBay, which have each created a distinct consumer profile, attract committed, repeat customers with whom they build GÇ£deep, meaningful, long-term relationshipsGÇ¥ [8, p. 76], and these customers are both loyal and enthusiastic in promoting the use of these e-vendorGÇÖs Web sites [51]. Srinivasan et al. [78] found that e-loyalty is generated by community, contact interactivity, care, and character.
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 13:19:17 -
[4908] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Look above the study answered the question which kind of nullified what you trying to say in the first place, the skillpoints are time - effort ergo the more you put into it the more you will achieve You can't just pick a sentence and say it refutes every other point in the study. SP, especially for a fresh character, has very little to do with effort. There are also still all the problems already mentioned, which come from SP, like about the equal opportunity to win a battle. Underplaying what a fresh sub can do through nothing he can actually improve (for his own character) -- especially effectiveness and diversity -- not only undermines learning and exploration, but also creativity and interest. When thats in there i can : Social Identity and E-Loyalty So now we dont just have actual games involved in the study group but : Other found that the group identification could occur in the absence of formal membership [67]. For example, electronic vendors, such as Amazon.com, Google, and eBay, which have each created a distinct consumer profile, attract committed, repeat customers with whom they build GÇ£deep, meaningful, long-term relationshipsGÇ¥ [8, p. 76], and these customers are both loyal and enthusiastic in promoting the use of these e-vendorGÇÖs Web sites [51]. Srinivasan et al. [78] found that e-loyalty is generated by community, contact interactivity, care, and character. How is that relevant? It seems that it's deflecting from the questions.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4241
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 13:47:11 -
[4909] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:That is IF the SP packets sell - Demand is likely to not be as high as you imagine. Maybe, but you're making an awful lot of non-fact based or downright wrong assumptions to 'prove' that.
500 to 600 mil isk for 500k SP instantly Why that figure? 1/4 PLEX + extractor will be the maximum price. It's highly likely that CCP will keep the extractor price much lower than 1/4 PLEX, else all this hassle would be for nothing. So 250-300 mil is far more reasonable at this point.
Now if a new player has 5 or 10 bil laying around buying SP may be worth it. Why 10 bil? Just 1 bil will already buy you close to a month of SP... That's already pretty useful for a young character!
The group who could afford the SP packages is all but excluded from using them due to diminishing returns What?! You get just -20% SP on a char up to 50 mil SP. That's easily a 3-year old EVE player. Easy to have a few bil at that 'age'. Also, there's PLEX.
This is the same group who is being asked to sell SP What?! Any single non-biomassed character can sell SP. Any active account gains SP every month. Anyone can sell SP!
players aren't going to sell SP as a commodity cheap to allow some new guy to out skill them because he has money. Players will sell SP every time they need ISK more than SP. Being a vet doesn't automatically mean being space-rich. SP accumulating on a close-to-max trading, PI, industry or hauler account is useless. Also, SP farmers will sell SP if they can make a decent profit. Since SP farming is an OFFLINE activity (MUCH LESS EFFORT than trading, afk mining, afk ratting, PI, etc.) I would say that 'decent' will be quite low. Even just 50 mil for 5 minutes of effort is 600 mil/hour!Ock
SP for sale is not an unlimited commodity Activate dual training --> sell SP. You don't even need to learn basic game mechanics!
I don't need isk, I have more than enough. Sure, me too. The difference is that you seem uncapable of understanding that not everyone is like us.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
125
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 13:50:43 -
[4910] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Look above the study answered the question which kind of nullified what you trying to say in the first place, the skillpoints are time - effort ergo the more you put into it the more you will achieve You can't just pick a sentence and say it refutes every other point in the study. SP, especially for a fresh character, has very little to do with effort. There are also still all the problems already mentioned, which come from SP, like about the equal opportunity to win a battle. Underplaying what a fresh sub can do through nothing he can actually improve (for his own character) -- especially effectiveness and diversity -- not only undermines learning and exploration, but also creativity and interest. When thats in there i can : Social Identity and E-Loyalty So now we dont just have actual games involved in the study group but : Other found that the group identification could occur in the absence of formal membership [67]. For example, electronic vendors, such as Amazon.com, Google, and eBay, which have each created a distinct consumer profile, attract committed, repeat customers with whom they build GÇ£deep, meaningful, long-term relationshipsGÇ¥ [8, p. 76], and these customers are both loyal and enthusiastic in promoting the use of these e-vendorGÇÖs Web sites [51]. Srinivasan et al. [78] found that e-loyalty is generated by community, contact interactivity, care, and character. How is that relevant? It seems that it's deflecting from the questions. Are you now seriously asking me to compare ebay and amazons customer base and your pointless drivel, now i understand why you cannot play the game and im guessing everyone else can too, im not deflecting anything here. Your study you have to prove to me why its relavent to the game not i to you, but i have an idiots guide version for you to be able to explain how to balance it if you like. The SANDBOX: big open space surrounded by a 10 foot fence drop a kitten into it / thats the new guy, Now drop the lion in there too / thats the 80+ mill sp player - How do you propose we balance that in a sandbox game design.
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 14:01:50 -
[4911] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Are you now seriously asking me to compare ebay and amazons customer base and your pointless drivel, now i understand why you cannot play the game and im guessing everyone else can too, im not deflecting anything here. Your study you have to prove to me why its relavent to the game not i to you, but i have an idiots guide version for you to be able to explain how to balance it if you like. The SANDBOX: big open space surrounded by a 10 foot fence drop a kitten into it / thats the new guy, Now drop the lion in there too / thats the 80+ mill sp player - How do you propose we balance that in a sandbox game design. Here is a post that already discusses this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6123787#post6123787
To more directly answer your question, the fair field is the opportunity to win, even if that requires planning, logistics, and plausibly avoidance until the fleet comps seem worth engaging. What the problem includes is limited strategy and fleet comp options because of SP, limited ship performance, and even the depth of industrialization provided. These are all about effectiveness.
Quote:Can you please describe how the inaccessibility of equipment required to either support sov through challenges, or to challenge sovs that have more SP is "being competitive"? Can you define how a 30M SP character referring a fresh set of subs can form a fleet with them and have them in practical fittings for, say, thriving in the T3D meta?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
162
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 14:54:19 -
[4912] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i still find it funny how it's "trolling" to disagree with him and point out the flaws in his argument. honestly not sure he understands what a troll is. It would have been great if you really provided any counter arguments ;) Since you just spammed with twisting out, taking things out of context, without even reading all my posts etc etc it is classic trolling. and yet i still contributed more than you to the discussion. you should be slightly embarrassed by that.
Sorry to burst your bubble but your only "contribution" to this thread is number of posts. If spam can be seen as contribution that is
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1864
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 15:00:30 -
[4913] - Quote
OK, I decided to take the time to read this study. Bearing in mind this is one study that is being QFT'd to support an argument. ! study does not make truth.
First point of concern at page 8: Therefore, the goal of this study is to identify effective strate - gies for promoting game player loyalty to MMORPGs by testing a proposed model using data from a survey of 173 players who were members of a large MMORPG community.
173 players? That few? From just one game? How is this supposed to representative of the whole MMO market? How is this supposed to representative of anything other than a very small group from a specific game model?
I'll continue reading but that doesn't fill me with confidence for s start |
Dave Stark
7837
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 15:06:27 -
[4914] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:OK, I decided to take the time to read this study. Bearing in mind this is one study that is being QFT'd to support an argument. ! study does not make truth.
First point of concern at page 8: Therefore, the goal of this study is to identify effective strate - gies for promoting game player loyalty to MMORPGs by testing a proposed model using data from a survey of 173 players who were members of a large MMORPG community.
173 players? That few? From just one game? How is this supposed to representative of the whole MMO market? How is this supposed to representative of anything other than a very small group from a specific game model?
I'll continue reading but that doesn't fill me with confidence for s start
Page 9: The research literature suggests that the players view the avatar as an idealized version of their own personality and that users are less satisfied with their avatar when there are major discrepancies between online and real personalities
Oh god I hope this isn't true of players in EvE given the cut-throat nature here. I find it more likely that players perform actions in EvE they would never even possibly consider in RL simply because they can and that makesit fun. This in itself would put the kind of player attracted to EvE outside of the realms of this study.
if that point on page 9 were remotely true then i guess now we know why there are 70 trades a day. the bazaar is like some kind of weird online dating forum where people are trying to get matched with themselves. |
Dave Stark
7837
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 15:11:06 -
[4915] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i still find it funny how it's "trolling" to disagree with him and point out the flaws in his argument. honestly not sure he understands what a troll is. It would have been great if you really provided any counter arguments ;) Since you just spammed with twisting out, taking things out of context, without even reading all my posts etc etc it is classic trolling. and yet i still contributed more than you to the discussion. you should be slightly embarrassed by that. Sorry to burst your bubble but your only "contribution" to this thread is number of posts. If spam can be seen as contribution that is
that's because i have to continuously repeat myself as it would seem some people find reading hard. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1865
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 15:16:49 -
[4916] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:OK, I decided to take the time to read this study. Bearing in mind this is one study that is being QFT'd to support an argument. ! study does not make truth.
First point of concern at page 8: Therefore, the goal of this study is to identify effective strate - gies for promoting game player loyalty to MMORPGs by testing a proposed model using data from a survey of 173 players who were members of a large MMORPG community.
173 players? That few? From just one game? How is this supposed to representative of the whole MMO market? How is this supposed to representative of anything other than a very small group from a specific game model?
I'll continue reading but that doesn't fill me with confidence for s start
Page 9: The research literature suggests that the players view the avatar as an idealized version of their own personality and that users are less satisfied with their avatar when there are major discrepancies between online and real personalities
Oh god I hope this isn't true of players in EvE given the cut-throat nature here. I find it more likely that players perform actions in EvE they would never even possibly consider in RL simply because they can and that makesit fun. This in itself would put the kind of player attracted to EvE outside of the realms of this study. if that point on page 9 were remotely true then i guess now we know why there are 70 trades a day. the bazaar is like some kind of weird online dating forum where people are trying to get matched with themselves.
People with the money to do so and no attachment to their character. That does not cover all players - 70 characters a day is a very small portion of those who log ing and there is a high likelihood that the same group of players are trading these character to suit their needs at any given time. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
163
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 15:16:54 -
[4917] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i still find it funny how it's "trolling" to disagree with him and point out the flaws in his argument. honestly not sure he understands what a troll is. It would have been great if you really provided any counter arguments ;) Since you just spammed with twisting out, taking things out of context, without even reading all my posts etc etc it is classic trolling. and yet i still contributed more than you to the discussion. you should be slightly embarrassed by that. Sorry to burst your bubble but your only "contribution" to this thread is number of posts. If spam can be seen as contribution that is that's because i have to continuously repeat myself as it would seem some people find reading hard.
You continuously spam and make noise. I can agree with that. Yet you did not manage to provide counter arguments for all those "weak arguments" people provided. If you are trying to "win" discussion by simply spamming and repeating bs, stating lies as a fact. Anyone who read the whole thread or asked you any question is aware of it. And no matter how many tries you lie and say you did provided counter arguments I will be here to challenge that bs again ^^.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
125
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 15:17:17 -
[4918] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Are you now seriously asking me to compare ebay and amazons customer base and your pointless drivel, now i understand why you cannot play the game and im guessing everyone else can too, im not deflecting anything here. Your study you have to prove to me why its relavent to the game not i to you, but i have an idiots guide version for you to be able to explain how to balance it if you like. The SANDBOX: big open space surrounded by a 10 foot fence drop a kitten into it / thats the new guy, Now drop the lion in there too / thats the 80+ mill sp player - How do you propose we balance that in a sandbox game design. Here is a post that already discusses this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6123787#post6123787 To more directly answer your question, the fair field is the opportunity to win, even if that requires planning, logistics, and plausibly avoidance until the fleet comps seem worth engaging. What the problem includes is limited strategy and fleet comp options because of SP, limited ship performance, and even the depth of industrialization provided. These are all about effectiveness. Quote:Can you please describe how the inaccessibility of equipment required to either support sov through challenges, or to challenge sovs that have more SP is "being competitive"? Can you define how a 30M SP character referring a fresh set of subs can form a fleet with them and have them in practical fittings for, say, thriving in the T3D meta?
So how long are you saying its boring , Ive just done a few fits now in EvEmon and you can fly T3D ships fully T2 fitted in 21 days PVE and 29 Days for PVP with only +3 implants and even across the board 23-23-19-23-23, so if its experience over skillpoints but you need to be in a T3 ship where is the problem Or are we now gonna say it says capitals in the video's.
So whilst your waiting / pvp / missions all the modules and guns on the ship are getting stronger and stronger.
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
Dave Stark
7839
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 15:25:17 -
[4919] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:You continuously spam and make noise. I can agree with that. Yet you did not manage to provide counter arguments for all those "weak arguments" people provided. If you are trying to "win" discussion by simply spamming and repeating bs, stating lies as a fact. Anyone who read the whole thread or asked you any question is aware of it. And no matter how many tries you lie and say you did provided counter arguments I will be here to challenge that bs again ^^.
which of my posts were lies. feel free to link one, i mean you seem to have no shortage of them apparently. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
163
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 16:11:53 -
[4920] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:You continuously spam and make noise. I can agree with that. Yet you did not manage to provide counter arguments for all those "weak arguments" people provided. If you are trying to "win" discussion by simply spamming and repeating bs, stating lies as a fact. Anyone who read the whole thread or asked you any question is aware of it. And no matter how many tries you lie and say you did provided counter arguments I will be here to challenge that bs again ^^. which of my posts were lies. feel free to link one, i mean you seem to have no shortage of them apparently. i mean, i don't mind you disagreeing with me - that's fine. however to call me a liar, that's just rude.
Here are just some from the first 100 pages.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103003#post6103003
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103187#post6103187
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103207#post6103207
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103367#post6103367
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103389#post6103389
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103449#post6103449
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103467#post6103467
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103502#post6103502
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103536#post6103536
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103624#post6103624
Cba to go further atm. There are plenty of other posts you had where you have taken things out of context, twisted out words, avoided answering questions etc etc.
And btw there are even posts where you agree with some arguments, yet you keep repeating there are no arguments made.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103617#post6103617
So yes, please continue with your noise, hope you will not be bothered by me challenging anything you say, until you provide some real counter arguments.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
51
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 16:12:30 -
[4921] - Quote
Emboldened replies:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:OK, I decided to take the time to read this study. Bearing in mind this is one study that is being QFT'd to support an argument. ! study does not make truth.
First point of concern at page 8: Therefore, the goal of this study is to identify effective strate - gies for promoting game player loyalty to MMORPGs by testing a proposed model using data from a survey of 173 players who were members of a large MMORPG community.
173 players? That few? From just one game? How is this supposed to representative of the whole MMO market? How is this supposed to representative of anything other than a very small group from a specific game model?
It's actually "a large MMORPG community", and although that makes it seem like "an MMO", it seems (per page 20) that it includes multiple games, some sandboxes."
I'll continue reading but that doesn't fill me with confidence for s start
Page 9: "The research literature suggests that the players view the avatar as an idealized version of their own personality and that users are less satisfied with their avatar when there are major discrepancies between online and real personalities"
Oh god I hope this isn't true of players in EvE given the cut-throat nature here. I find it more likely that players perform actions in EvE they would never even possibly consider in RL simply because they can and that makesit fun. This in itself would put the kind of player attracted to EvE outside of the realms of this study.
It's often supported that games fulfill a fantasy that can only be supported in a game, yet the bahavior is still defined by play ("play phenomena" for a research keyphrase). What's more relevant is that arbitrary limitations seem unrealistic, cheapening, "gaming" (monetizing), etc. For example, it makes no sense that filling market orders is limited until they start a training queue, yeah? That can apply to a huge subset of the game, if for no other reason than the primary objective of the game being to play.. not necessarily to pay money or be artificially restricted in a sandbox.
"The primary goal of this study is to identify factors that motivated game players to commit to an MMORPG. To achieve this goal, this research focused on key cognitive and social psychological variables influencing the development of e-loyalty toward MMORPGs."
I have a problem here due to the first point above, this is a limited player group from one game only
..Requires re-evaluation after realizing what all games it encompasses? Beyond that, if there's no reason to actually refute a study that's based in deep definitions of psychology (identity and ownership theories), motivation, and the researcher's experience as a game designer, then it's still an empty challenge.
"Control of the character is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for game success. Players must also possess skill, strategy, and knowledge. Because primary control is related to direct manipulation of the game character[66], MMORPG players attempt to manipulate their characters skillfully. As a result, the higher the characterGÇÖs level, the greater the control the player has over the character ["
This actually backs up EvE's use of SP's.
It's arguably a criticism on EVE's less-interactive control method. There are playstyles that benefit from manual piloting, but many don't. It also seems unclear how you're correlating "player control" with passive skill points. "Control is .. a driving force in behavior, and individuals strive to produce behavior-event contingencies to exert primary control over the environment. Conversely, individuals are averse to loss of control and experience negative emotions when confronted with possible or actual loss of control." That would include effectiveness, e.g., ship performance, market profitability, etc.
This is on page 12 for context, and goes on to say, "Greater feelings of psychological ownership should increase positive feelings of experienced responsibility, caring, and stewardship.. Yee argued that MMORPG players usually play characters that are able to alter the game environment and control the flow of a fight so that their character becomes the winner." Notably, these are all directly correlative with gameplay, which SP is both isn't and also reduces (including effectiveness -- "control").
Page 12: "Hypothesis 1a: The playerGÇÖs perceived control over his or her own character (avatar) positively influences his or her psychological ownership of the character (avatar) in the MMorPG. Hypothesis 1b: The playerGÇÖs psychological ownership of his or her own character (avatar) positively influences eGÇæloyalty toward the MMorPG."
Pretty much support the use of SP to grow a character and therefore a players investment in it and loyalty to the game.
Still reading...
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Dave Stark
7840
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 16:18:29 -
[4922] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:You continuously spam and make noise. I can agree with that. Yet you did not manage to provide counter arguments for all those "weak arguments" people provided. If you are trying to "win" discussion by simply spamming and repeating bs, stating lies as a fact. Anyone who read the whole thread or asked you any question is aware of it. And no matter how many tries you lie and say you did provided counter arguments I will be here to challenge that bs again ^^. which of my posts were lies. feel free to link one, i mean you seem to have no shortage of them apparently. i mean, i don't mind you disagreeing with me - that's fine. however to call me a liar, that's just rude. Here are just some from the first 100 pages. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103003#post6103003 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103187#post6103187 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103207#post6103207 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103367#post6103367 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103389#post6103389 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103449#post6103449 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103467#post6103467 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103502#post6103502 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103536#post6103536 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103624#post6103624 Cba to go further atm. There are plenty of other posts you had where you have taken things out of context, twisted out words, avoided answering questions etc etc. And btw there are even posts where you agree with some arguments, yet you keep repeating there are no arguments made. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103617#post6103617 So yes, please continue with your noise, hope you will not be bothered by me challenging anything you say, until you provide some real counter arguments. And calling you a liar is not as rude as you saying no one provided arguments, yet failing to counter them. As I have obvious proofs you are a lier, this topic is full of them. If someone reads it objectively, without taking sides of the topic, he can find them easily. Same for your manipulative posting, twisting things out, taking things out of context, digressing from the quoted subjects etc.. So yes, you sir are a liar, sorry if you cannot handle the truth.
none of those are lies, you've literally just pasted a bunch of links to me stating facts, and one question (which by definition can't be a lie, since it's not a statement). |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1866
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 16:31:09 -
[4923] - Quote
Dror wrote:Emboldened replies: ... It's actually "a large MMORPG community", and although that makes it seem like "an MMO", it seems (per page 20) that it includes multiple games, some sandboxes."
I really can't accept 173 players as a representative group of even a small game group. The study relies on the answers from this group and is very heavily limited by the points that the study itself accepts just before the conclusion. There is no indication that the study group even fall into the same demographic of players who are attracted to EvE, let alone those that stay and play the game for an extended time.
Dror wrote: It's often supported that games fulfill a fantasy that can only be supported in a game, yet the bahavior is still defined by play ("play phenomena" for a research keyphrase). What's more relevant is that arbitrary limitations seem unrealistic, cheapening, "gaming" (monetizing), etc. For example, it makes no sense that filling market orders is limited until they start a training queue, yeah? That can apply to a huge subset of the game, if for no other reason than the primary objective of the game being to play.. not necessarily to pay money or be artificially restricted in a sandbox.
The games studied all have character progression mechanism that allow the players to create their character as they wish over time. That in no way invalidates SP and for me does not back up your view at all. In fact in my view the study implies the exact opposite, that a mechanism to give players control over their character is intrinsically necessary for the creation of investment in that character and therefore the game.
Dror wrote:
..Requires re-evaluation after realizing what all games it encompasses? Beyond that, if there's no reason to actually refute a study that's based in deep definitions of psychology (identity and ownership theories), motivation, and the researcher's experience as a game designer, then it's still an empty challenge.
Same as above, 173 players (implied from the same game but no way to be sure) is absolutely not enough to be a representative group. The limitation of this is explicitly acknowledged at the end of the study.
Dror wrote: It's arguably a criticism on EVE's less-interactive control method. There are playstyles that benefit from manual piloting, but many don't. It also seems unclear how you're correlating "player control" with passive skill points. "Control is .. a driving force in behavior, and individuals strive to produce behavior-event contingencies to exert primary control over the environment. Conversely, individuals are averse to loss of control and experience negative emotions when confronted with possible or actual loss of control." That would include effectiveness, e.g., ship performance, market profitability, etc.
This is on page 12 for context, and goes on to say, "Greater feelings of psychological ownership should increase positive feelings of experienced responsibility, caring, and stewardship.. Yee argued that MMORPG players usually play characters that are able to alter the game environment and control the flow of a fight so that their character becomes the winner." Notably, these are all directly correlative with gameplay, which SP is both isn't and also reduces (including effectiveness -- "control").
You read this very differently to me then, your proposal would remove any control a player has over their character growth (as there simply wouldn't be any). You are also treating EvE like most other MMORPG's and we all know it isn't. It is absolutely clear to me that the control comes from driving your character in whatever direction you choose and gaining the skills to access other areas of the game as you do so. EvE actually requires more planning and forethought than any other game I've played and this is part of what draws those players to EvE that actually stay. This is backed up by CCP's own studies that show that those players who interact with many career styles over time stay in the game longer.
I'll also re-iterate that the studies own acknowledgement of it's severe limitations completely invalidates any use of it as proof of any argument.
Ed: the [/dror] was entirely a mistype... |
Drammie Askold
Phoibe Enterprises
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 16:34:53 -
[4924] - Quote
Having read several articles and comments from various people I cautiously welcome SP trading. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
49
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 16:37:29 -
[4925] - Quote
Let's get this into action CCP! Been waiting for years for this. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
125
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 16:45:51 -
[4926] - Quote
Dror wrote:Can you please describe how the inaccessibility of equipment required to either support sov through challenges, or to challenge sovs that have more SP is "being competitive"? Can you define how a 30M SP character referring a fresh set of subs can form a fleet with them and have them in practical fittings for, say, thriving in the T3D meta?
Levi Belvar wrote:So how long are you saying its boring , Ive just done a few fits now in EvEmon and you can fly T3D ships fully T2 fitted in 21 days PVE and 29 Days for PVP with only +3 implants and even across the board 23-23-19-23-23, so if its experience over skillpoints but you need to be in a T3 ship where is the problem Or are we now gonna say it says capitals in the video's.
So whilst your waiting / pvp / missions all the modules and guns on the ship are getting stronger and stronger.
Thinking about it now "Logically" so even for pvp you can be in a T3D ship fully T2 fitted before the end of your trial period ( barring the fact certain skills cant be trained on trials) but by the end of your free month your ready to rock n roll with the vets !! So now its been proved that before you leave a trial period your up and running is there anything else, bearing in mind there are no skills for social awkwardness and i cant actually get people to speak up, ask for help, help with there ship fits.
There are loads of sites to help the new player progress as fast as possible evewiki, evelopedia, eve-o, heartsandmindsalliance.org/ has some great info and battleclinic. Open your eyes expand your mind
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
73
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 16:46:30 -
[4927] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i still find it funny how it's "trolling" to disagree with him and point out the flaws in his argument. honestly not sure he understands what a troll is. It would have been great if you really provided any counter arguments ;) Since you just spammed with twisting out, taking things out of context, without even reading all my posts etc etc it is classic trolling. Can I provide arguments instead of Dave? |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
73
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 16:56:02 -
[4928] - Quote
|
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
456
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 17:06:59 -
[4929] - Quote
I think a lot of people with concerns have not even read the devblog.
At 50-70M sp you get one tenth of the skill points. The suggested values in the blog are 50000 sp. Or by my math, less than a days worth *and* those skill points came from somewhere. Somewhere with more than 5M sp as well.
So lets run the numbers: Assume 50k sp is a days worth. I want to get say battleship 5 for a race. I currently have the 50-70M sp. So each packet only gets me a days worth. Thus i would need over 30 packets. Now consider fighter to lvl 5!!
Now what will the cost be. Assume for a second they are free outside the SP that you need. So we would have some SP farmers. ie a few characters with 5M sp that just bundle the 2 packets a month (about) for sale. This is a plex worth. So even without making a dime its going to be 500M per skill packet. If i add the Aurm cost its is going to be much higher. And they are going to want a profit here. So we are talking 20-50B for that one skill!
So sure it is worth it if your a 5-20M sp pilot, but for the others, it really won't be.
AKA the scientist.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
51
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 17:06:59 -
[4930] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I really can't accept 173 players as a representative group of even a small game group. Then find an alternative study?
Out of all of that, how is it not obvious that SP limits effectiveness, which is the very definition of control in the study? What counter do you have that an inherent drive is to win, which relies on fair opportunity?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
163
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 17:22:04 -
[4931] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:You continuously spam and make noise. I can agree with that. Yet you did not manage to provide counter arguments for all those "weak arguments" people provided. If you are trying to "win" discussion by simply spamming and repeating bs, stating lies as a fact. Anyone who read the whole thread or asked you any question is aware of it. And no matter how many tries you lie and say you did provided counter arguments I will be here to challenge that bs again ^^. which of my posts were lies. feel free to link one, i mean you seem to have no shortage of them apparently. i mean, i don't mind you disagreeing with me - that's fine. however to call me a liar, that's just rude. Here are just some from the first 100 pages. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103003#post6103003 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103187#post6103187 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103207#post6103207 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103367#post6103367 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103389#post6103389 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103449#post6103449 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103467#post6103467 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103502#post6103502 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103536#post6103536 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103624#post6103624 Cba to go further atm. There are plenty of other posts you had where you have taken things out of context, twisted out words, avoided answering questions etc etc. And btw there are even posts where you agree with some arguments, yet you keep repeating there are no arguments made. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103617#post6103617 So yes, please continue with your noise, hope you will not be bothered by me challenging anything you say, until you provide some real counter arguments. And calling you a liar is not as rude as you saying no one provided arguments, yet failing to counter them. As I have obvious proofs you are a lier, this topic is full of them. If someone reads it objectively, without taking sides of the topic, he can find them easily. Same for your manipulative posting, twisting things out, taking things out of context, digressing from the quoted subjects etc.. So yes, you sir are a liar, sorry if you cannot handle the truth. none of those are lies, you've literally just pasted a bunch of links to me stating facts, and one question (which by definition can't be a lie, since it's not a statement).
Please go ahead and prove them not being lies. Just stating so is not good enough ^^
Also I have provided a link where you agree with my argument, ie proving your statement that there was no real argument lie again.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7843
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 17:24:55 -
[4932] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:You continuously spam and make noise. I can agree with that. Yet you did not manage to provide counter arguments for all those "weak arguments" people provided. If you are trying to "win" discussion by simply spamming and repeating bs, stating lies as a fact. Anyone who read the whole thread or asked you any question is aware of it. And no matter how many tries you lie and say you did provided counter arguments I will be here to challenge that bs again ^^. which of my posts were lies. feel free to link one, i mean you seem to have no shortage of them apparently. i mean, i don't mind you disagreeing with me - that's fine. however to call me a liar, that's just rude. Here are just some from the first 100 pages. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103003#post6103003 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103187#post6103187 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103207#post6103207 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103367#post6103367 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103389#post6103389 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103449#post6103449 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103467#post6103467 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103502#post6103502 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103536#post6103536 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103624#post6103624 Cba to go further atm. There are plenty of other posts you had where you have taken things out of context, twisted out words, avoided answering questions etc etc. And btw there are even posts where you agree with some arguments, yet you keep repeating there are no arguments made. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103617#post6103617 So yes, please continue with your noise, hope you will not be bothered by me challenging anything you say, until you provide some real counter arguments. And calling you a liar is not as rude as you saying no one provided arguments, yet failing to counter them. As I have obvious proofs you are a lier, this topic is full of them. If someone reads it objectively, without taking sides of the topic, he can find them easily. Same for your manipulative posting, twisting things out, taking things out of context, digressing from the quoted subjects etc.. So yes, you sir are a liar, sorry if you cannot handle the truth. none of those are lies, you've literally just pasted a bunch of links to me stating facts, and one question (which by definition can't be a lie, since it's not a statement). Please go ahead and prove them not being lies. Just stating so is not good enough ^^ Also I have provided a link where you agree with my argument, ie proving your statement that there was no real argument lie again.
what do you mean prove them not being lies... that's pretty evident in the fact that they aren't.
no, i agreed that business models are shifting - which has absolutely nothing to do with this topic or any of your arguments. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
163
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 17:33:03 -
[4933] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
i mean, i don't mind you disagreeing with me - that's fine. however to call me a liar, that's just rude.
Here are just some from the first 100 pages. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103003#post6103003 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103187#post6103187 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103207#post6103207 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103367#post6103367 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103389#post6103389 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103449#post6103449 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103467#post6103467 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103502#post6103502 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103536#post6103536 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103624#post6103624 Cba to go further atm. There are plenty of other posts you had where you have taken things out of context, twisted out words, avoided answering questions etc etc. And btw there are even posts where you agree with some arguments, yet you keep repeating there are no arguments made. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103617#post6103617 So yes, please continue with your noise, hope you will not be bothered by me challenging anything you say, until you provide some real counter arguments. And calling you a liar is not as rude as you saying no one provided arguments, yet failing to counter them. As I have obvious proofs you are a lier, this topic is full of them. If someone reads it objectively, without taking sides of the topic, he can find them easily. Same for your manipulative posting, twisting things out, taking things out of context, digressing from the quoted subjects etc.. So yes, you sir are a liar, sorry if you cannot handle the truth. none of those are lies, you've literally just pasted a bunch of links to me stating facts, and one question (which by definition can't be a lie, since it's not a statement). Please go ahead and prove them not being lies. Just stating so is not good enough ^^ Also I have provided a link where you agree with my argument, ie proving your statement that there was no real argument lie again. what do you mean prove them not being lies... that's pretty evident in the fact that they aren't. no, i agreed that business models are shifting - which has absolutely nothing to do with this topic or any of your arguments.
They are blatant lies. If you fail to prove they are not you are a liar. Simple as that. Your "credibility" is at stake here sir (like you had any :D).
"Because the game seemed to be consistent. So it looked like it was worth putting in effort. By changing that, CCP sends a message to the player base that when it comes to money there is no consistency. It`s all about the benjamins babe. Problem is that they can only see short term yield of money and fail to foresee what will happen in the long run.
Not everyone will quit because of it, it is not going to break a game imediatelly but it will surely make some people quit immediately and others to drop long term plans for the game as they cannot lean on it. So, yes more and more people will quit, causing less and less money for ccp and in the end the servers are going to die..."
This is the post you have agreed with and it is pointing out consequences of this change. So it is quite on topic.
Your business model comment comes later, where you assume that CCP will switch from subscription to microtransactions. Which will probably not happen.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1867
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 17:34:30 -
[4934] - Quote
Dror wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I really can't accept 173 players as a representative group of even a small game group. Then find an alternative study? Out of all of that, how is it not obvious that SP limits effectiveness, which is the very definition of control in the study? What counter do you have that an inherent drive is to win, which relies on fair opportunity?
I don't have to find an alternative study, the one you have chosen refutes itself for theuse you are putting it to. The number of case studies in itself is way too small to produce anything more than interesting avenues for research and that would need consideration to to the self reported nature of the feedback. That and the fact that EvE is a very different beats to other MMO's makes this study next to useless as a reason to remove SP.
The control you refer to is also the control a player has over their character progression, not the control a game places over a character. The control of a player over their character is highlighted as an intrinsic part of player investment in their character and therefore the game. EvE gives you this control on an even basis no matter how much time you can invest into the game. A player who plays 40 hours a week will have exactly the same investment in the progression of their character as one who only has 4 hours spare. This is one of the absolute best things about the game.
This is another reason why I'm against the SP buying idea that will be implemented as well, it's messing with this at a level where a player with low game time will be made to feel disenfranchised as they can't afford to pay for the increased SP in TL cash or in game ISK. New players will also feel pressured to pay extra cash just to speed up training. I'm extremely uncomfortable with that whole idea. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
269
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 17:35:07 -
[4935] - Quote
During the Vegas keynote Seagull mentioned that this is an idea in which she feels will benefit the game, but also understood that this is a fundamental change to the game and so asked the playerbase for feedback / suggestions on how to go forward. With this in mind after some time to fully reflect on the consequences of the change, I offer the following constructive suggestions and criticisms of the proposal below.
A lot of the problems with the proposed system have been listed in detail already, but in summary the most game breaking issues are the three below.
1. There is massive room for exploitation with this proposal, big alliances with lots of disposable ISK will be able to instantly train up an alt (and do this very effectively up to 50million SP). On reflection the main issue I have with this is that it is instant, that will make it completely overpowered and exploitable for many of the reasons already detailed.
2. The proposal creates the concept of SP farms, and allows veteran players with lots of spare SP or ISK to setup these farms to milk as much ISK as they can out of it. Also this is passive income which is something that CCP has been trying to remove from the game, and worst off it is passive income with absolutely no effort required to set it up or defend.
3. The proposal will introduce a grind for SP. I have nothing against a small amount of grinding, but the problem with this is that it introduces the prospect of completely unlimited grinding, you can just continually buy more skill packets. This will not be fun in terms of gameplay as you will miss out on a lot of the more niche aspects of eve, things which you pull off with the tools you have available. So instead of being creative and exploring the possibilities in eve and overcoming odds with knowledge and skill, the main option will be to grind more SP to keep up. There will be no excuse now for not being able to fly the doctrine or perfectly fit ships, if you can't then you will be told to go and grind SP and come back later. This in turn makes the game less fun.
So hopefully that answers a lot of the people who cannot understand why people are against this idea. That is three very clear and objective points.
SOLUTION
I do think we have to accept that there are certain aspects of the game which CCP wants to change, after all the game needs to progress. I can understand that CCP wants the skill system to be less unforgiving, and more easy for new players to get into and advance along. These are reasonable goals, although they do not require the currently proposed method with all of its drawbacks. So instead I propose the two approaches below.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
271
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 17:35:53 -
[4936] - Quote
Skill Remapping
I have always been against this, but if this will help newer players by making the skill system less unforgiving, then upon reflection if it is implemented in a moderate way then it shouldn't be too bad. So here is my suggestion.
You buy a Neural Modifier from the market (or Aurum store) which comes in the types below; Basic Neural Modifier - allows character to reallocate up to 3m SP - cost 1 PLEX. Enhanced Neural Modifier - allows character to reallocate up to 5m SP - costs 2 PLEX.
To stop the kind of exploitation you get with skill trading the reallocation process would have a cool-down period of one year. You could reallocate during the cool-down period although you will get diminishing returns. So in practice the reallocation would only confers the full benefit if you wait for one year after the previous reallocation. If you reallocate for instance 6 months after the last reallocation (50% of the cool-down period) then you would get 50% of the benefit (1.5m or 2.5m SP).
And to make the skill system even less unforgiving for newer players (and due to the malleability of a new player's brain) they would have the opportunity to reallocate their SP more freely during their initial stages. As a result all new characters would come with 2 free Neural Modifications which would allow them to reallocate 2m SP each time for no cost and with no cool-down (this would be fixed to the character and could not be traded).
I believe this would make the skill system less unforgiving which would achieve some of CCPs goals without introducing the grind and possibility of exploitation that would come with skill trading.
Cerebral Enhancers Another of the issues that CCP mentioned was that newer players were quitting because they didn't feel as though they could speed up their progress. I think this is also a fair point and newer players should be able to speed things up to some degree, although very importantly they should not be able to just completely skip straight to 50m SP if they have the cash. The exception to this is obviously the character bazaar. With another method in place to speed up skill training though I believe newer players would not feel so inclined to take the jump and buy a character from the bazaar, this is good as I don't believe that using the CB is a good gameplay experience for a new player (and usually doesn't end well). I see the CB as more of a tool for advanced players and a lot of new players will be catered for by the proposal below.
Cerebral enhancers would come in the 2 variations below:
Standard Enhancer increases SP gain by 100% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/8 Plex (150m)
Advanced Enhancer increases SP gain by 150% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/4 Plex (300m)
The effect of the enhancer is modified based upon the SP total of the character it is used upon.
0 GÇô 10 million skillpoints = 100% effect (150% increased training speed - 6750 SP hour max) 10 - 25 million skillpoints = 75% effect (112.5% increased training speed - 5737.5 SP hour max) 25 - 50 million skillpoints = 50% effect (75% increased training speed - 4725 SP hour max) 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 25% effect (37.5% increased training speed - 3712.5 SP hour max) 80 + million skillpoints = 20% effect (30% increased training speed - 3510 SP hour max)
Using cerebral enhancers which heavily benefit newer players over older players would mean that if newer players choose to do so then they could speed up their skill training for a reasonable cost (both in game and through plex). As this is not as exploitable as instant unallocated SP, I don't see this being quite as desirable to veteren players (particularly considering they benefit they would get is only 1/5 of that which a new player would get), and as a result the market would reflect a price that is attainable to a new character.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
Dave Stark
7845
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 17:40:46 -
[4937] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:They are blatant lies. If you fail to prove they are not you are a liar. Simple as that. Your "credibility" is at stake here sir (like you had any :D).
"Because the game seemed to be consistent. So it looked like it was worth putting in effort. By changing that, CCP sends a message to the player base that when it comes to money there is no consistency. It`s all about the benjamins babe. Problem is that they can only see short term yield of money and fail to foresee what will happen in the long run.
Not everyone will quit because of it, it is not going to break a game imediatelly but it will surely make some people quit immediately and others to drop long term plans for the game as they cannot lean on it. So, yes more and more people will quit, causing less and less money for ccp and in the end the servers are going to die..."
This is the post you have agreed with and it is pointing out consequences of this change. So it is quite on topic.
Your business model comment comes later, where you assume that CCP will switch from subscription to microtransactions. Which will probably not happen.
no, as you're the one calling me a liar the burden of truth is on you. not me. as for my proof, it's in those links. anyone can read the truth there - the facts i presented.
i said there would be a reduced need for alts and this would lead to a decline in subscribed accounts - that statement ignores the fact that people will simply have SP farming accounts instead. however i didn't comment on that as there's no way to quantify whether or not it'll be a net loss or gain.
my business model comment was in the same post. where i merely pointed out the whole industry has shifted to microtransactions. i didn't make any assumptions about what ccp would do. i asked a question, that question being is it time we accepted that CCP moved from subscriptions to micro transactions. if either of us are liars, it would appear to be you. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1867
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 17:41:16 -
[4938] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Skill Remapping
I have always been against this, but if this will help newer players by making the skill system less unforgiving, then upon reflection if it is implemented in a moderate way then it shouldn't be too bad. So here is my suggestion.
You buy a Neural Modifier from the market (or Aurum store) which comes in the types below; Basic Neural Modifier - allows character to reallocate up to 3m SP - cost 1 PLEX. Enhanced Neural Modifier - allows character to reallocate up to 5m SP - costs 2 PLEX.
To stop the kind of exploitation you get with skill trading the reallocation process would have a cool-down period of one year. You could reallocate during the cool-down period although you will get diminishing returns. So in practice the reallocation would only confers the full benefit if you wait for one year after the previous reallocation. If you reallocate for instance 6 months after the last reallocation (50% of the cool-down period) then you would get 50% of the benefit (1.5m or 2.5m SP).
And to make the skill system even less unforgiving for newer players (and due to the malleability of a new player's brain) they would have the opportunity to reallocate their SP more freely during their initial stages. As a result all new characters would come with 2 free Neural Modifications which would allow them to reallocate 2m SP each time for no cost and with no cool-down (this would be fixed to the character and could not be traded).
I believe this would make the skill system less unforgiving which would achieve some of CCPs goals without introducing the grind and possibility of exploitation that would come with skill trading.
Cerebral Enhancers Another of the issues that CCP mentioned was that newer players were quitting because they didn't feel as though they could speed up their progress. I think this is also a fair point and newer players should be able to speed things up to some degree, although very importantly they should not be able to just completely skip straight to 50m SP if they have the cash. The exception to this is obviously the character bazaar. With another method in place to speed up skill training though I believe newer players would not feel so inclined to take the jump and buy a character from the bazaar, this is good as I don't believe that using the CB is a good gameplay experience for a new player (and usually doesn't end well). I see the CB as more of a tool for advanced players and a lot of new players will be catered for by the proposal below.
Cerebral enhancers would come in the 2 variations below:
Standard Enhancer increases SP gain by 100% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/8 Plex (150m)
Advanced Enhancer increases SP gain by 150% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/4 Plex (300m)
The effect of the enhancer is modified based upon the SP total of the character it is used upon.
0 GÇô 10 million skillpoints = 100% effect (150% increased training speed - 6750 SP hour max) 10 - 25 million skillpoints = 75% effect (112.5% increased training speed - 5737.5 SP hour max) 25 - 50 million skillpoints = 50% effect (75% increased training speed - 4725 SP hour max) 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 25% effect (37.5% increased training speed - 3712.5 SP hour max) 80 + million skillpoints = 20% effect (30% increased training speed - 3510 SP hour max)
Using cerebral enhancers which heavily benefit newer players over older players would mean that if newer players choose to do so then they could speed up their skill training for a reasonable cost (both in game and through plex). As this is not as exploitable as instant unallocated SP, I don't see this being quite as desirable to veteren players (particularly considering they benefit they would get is only 1/5 of that which a new player would get), and as a result the market would reflect a price that is attainable to a new character.
Not a fan of the remaps but I could live with the second idea in some form. I'd want a hard cap on enhancers use though and make them player created in game in some form that it is more useful for new players to produce them rather than vets farming them. This would give new players more investment in the game, would allow them to produce them by themselves as an introduction to manufacture and exploration. New players could then sell them for isk if they are patient to wait on the skill queue or just eat them like smarties if not.
ED: I also firmly believe that new players would find importable skill queues invaluable. CCP could create basic combat, explo, indy ones and corps could produce more tailored ones to entice new folks. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
51
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 17:44:08 -
[4939] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I really can't accept 173 players as a representative group of even a small game group. Then find an alternative study? Out of all of that, how is it not obvious that SP limits effectiveness, which is the very definition of control in the study? What counter do you have that an inherent drive is to win, which relies on fair opportunity? I don't have to find an alternative study, the one you have chosen refutes itself for theuse you are putting it to. The number of case studies in itself is way too small to produce anything more than interesting avenues for research and that would need consideration to to the self reported nature of the feedback. That and the fact that EvE is a very different beats to other MMO's makes this study next to useless as a reason to remove SP. The control you refer to is also the control a player has over their character progression, not the control a game places over a character. The control of a player over their character is highlighted as an intrinsic part of player investment in their character and therefore the game. EvE gives you this control on an even basis no matter how much time you can invest into the game. A player who plays 40 hours a week will have exactly the same investment in the progression of their character as one who only has 4 hours spare. This is one of the absolute best things about the game. This is another reason why I'm against the SP buying idea that will be implemented as well, it's messing with this at a level where a player with low game time will be made to feel disenfranchised as they can't afford to pay for the increased SP in TL cash or in game ISK. New players will also feel pressured to pay extra cash just to speed up training. I'm extremely uncomfortable with that whole idea. It's very specifically defined as the control a character has over his environment. That includes the opportunity to win, produce, strategize, and improve.
The idea about SP providing even-field "character progression" is worthless for criticizing the game without SP.
Beyond all of that, the study is just correlating previous theories and a study sample for more evidence. You can't refute the inherence of winning and fairness and opportunity to interest and motivation. You obviously can't evidence that "pretend" character progression (SP) is more powerful than actual character progression, effectiveness, and experiences.
Posts refuted. Enjoy.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1868
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 17:52:37 -
[4940] - Quote
Dror wrote:
Posts refuted. Enjoy.
You are refusing to accept that the study itself acknowledges that it has sever limitations and is based upon a very small set of case studies that may or may not have doubtful relevance.
You cannot use this study to argue a case for removing SP and you are blatantly ignoring the fact that CCP have stated that SP are a central core of the game. They may want to change the rate at which you gain them but they do not want to remove them. Oh and that's not an appeal to authority as you like to put it, simply a statement of the CCP position. |
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
271
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 18:01:24 -
[4941] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Not a fan of the remaps but I could live with the second idea in some form. I'd want a hard cap on enhancers use though and make them player created in game in some form that it is more useful for new players to produce them rather than vets farming them. This would give new players more investment in the game, would allow them to produce them by themselves as an introduction to manufacture and exploration. New players could then sell them for isk if they are patient to wait on the skill queue or just eat them like smarties if not.
ED: I also firmly believe that new players would find importable skill queues invaluable. CCP could create basic combat, explo, indy ones and corps could produce more tailored ones to entice new folks. I've never been a fan of remaps myself, but if CCP are saying they have factual evidence to believe that this is hurting the long term health of the game then I am willing to reconsider. The most important part is that this should be implemented in a limited form, like you say perhaps impose hard caps. With any changes CCP makes they should be slow and gradual, and should not destroy the essence of the game.
Also ideally I'd like everything to be player made (including ship skins), although I understand if CCP needs revenue from these micro-transactions as long as it doesn't get out of control. I wouldn't like to see it go any further than what I proposed above, and ideally if they could revert ship skins to being player made as a trade then that would suit me.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
126
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 18:02:00 -
[4942] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Skill Remapping
I have always been against this, but if this will help newer players by making the skill system less unforgiving, then upon reflection if it is implemented in a moderate way then it shouldn't be too bad. So here is my suggestion.
You buy a Neural Modifier from the market (or Aurum store) which comes in the types below:
Basic Neural Modifier - allows character to reallocate up to 3m SP - cost 1 PLEX - cool-down 1 year. Enhanced Neural Modifier - allows character to reallocate up to 5m SP - costs 2 PLEX - cool-down 1 year.
To stop the kind of exploitation which you would get with the instant reallocation of unallocated SP in the skill trading proposal, the skill remapping would have a cool-down period of one year. You could reallocate during the cool-down period although you will get diminishing returns. So in practice the reallocation would only confers the full benefit if you wait for one year after the previous reallocation. If you reallocate for instance 6 months after the last reallocation (50% of the cool-down period) then you would get 50% of the benefit (1.5m or 2.5m SP).
These prices are still high for a newer player (who will be the one who needs them the most), and so to make the skill system is even less unforgiving for newer players (and due to the malleability of a new player's brain) they would have the opportunity to reallocate their SP more freely during their initial stages. As a result all new characters would come with 2 free Neural Modifications which would allow them to reallocate 2m SP each time for no cost and with no cool-down (this would be fixed to the character and could not be traded).
I believe skill remapping would make the skill system less unforgiving as choices could be undone to a limited degree and at a cost (again would be much more favourable to a newer player). This would achieve some of CCP's goals without introducing the type of grind you would get with trying to buy skill packets, and all and possibilities of exploitation that come with that.
Cerebral Enhancers
Another of the issues that CCP mentioned was that newer players were quitting because they didn't feel as though they could speed up their progress. I think this is also a fair point and newer players should be able to speed things up to some degree, although very importantly they should not be able to just completely skip straight to 50m SP if they have the out of game money.
The exception to this is obviously the character bazaar, although with another method in place to speed up skill training though I believe newer players would not feel so inclined to take the jump and buy a character from the bazaar. I don't believe that using the CB is a good gameplay experience for a new player (and usually doesn't end well) so offering them a valid alternative should give more choices to a new player and hopefully increase retention. The CB should be more of a tool for advanced players wanting to trade highly specialised character, and genuine new players will be catered for by the proposal below.
Cerebral enhancers would come in the 2 variations below:
Standard Enhancer increases SP gain by 100% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/8 Plex (150m)
Advanced Enhancer increases SP gain by 150% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/4 Plex (300m)
The effect of the enhancer is modified based upon the SP total of the character it is used upon.
0 GÇô 10 million skillpoints = 100% effect (150% increased training speed - 6750 SP hour max) 10 - 25 million skillpoints = 75% effect (112.5% increased training speed - 5737.5 SP hour max) 25 - 50 million skillpoints = 50% effect (75% increased training speed - 4725 SP hour max) 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 25% effect (37.5% increased training speed - 3712.5 SP hour max) 80 + million skillpoints = 20% effect (30% increased training speed - 3510 SP hour max)
Using cerebral enhancers which heavily benefit newer players over older players would mean that if newer players chooses to do so then they could speed up their skill training for a reasonable cost . As this proposal is not as exploitable as the instant unallocated SP you would get with skill trading, I don't see this being quite as desirable to veteren players (particularly considering they benefit they would get is only 1/5 of that which a new player would get). As a result the market would reflect a price that is attainable to a new character.
Both are of benefit to the game,older players can lose there unwanted skills and new players get their head start, it would seem they do listen before committing then which is a vast improvement now too. +10 to all involded
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
51
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 18:06:35 -
[4943] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote:
Posts refuted. Enjoy.
You are refusing to accept that the study itself acknowledges that it has sever limitations and is based upon a very small set of case studies that may or may not have doubtful relevance. You cannot use this study to argue a case for removing SP and you are blatantly ignoring the fact that CCP have stated that SP are a central core of the game. They may want to change the rate at which you gain them but they do not want to remove them. Oh and that's not an appeal to authority as you like to put it, simply a statement of the CCP position. I wasn't. The study's very questions are based on psychological ownership theory and social identity theory. There's very little variation with the idea "I feel valuable in my guild". Like, you're not actually challenging the study's contents, just the idea that a small-scale study can be comprehensive.
Again, if you can't provide an alternative to the inherence of winning and experiencing (to enjoyment, loyalty, etc.), then you're posting nothing.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1868
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 18:22:35 -
[4944] - Quote
Dror wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote:
Posts refuted. Enjoy.
You are refusing to accept that the study itself acknowledges that it has sever limitations and is based upon a very small set of case studies that may or may not have doubtful relevance. You cannot use this study to argue a case for removing SP and you are blatantly ignoring the fact that CCP have stated that SP are a central core of the game. They may want to change the rate at which you gain them but they do not want to remove them. Oh and that's not an appeal to authority as you like to put it, simply a statement of the CCP position. I wasn't. The study's very questions are based on psychological ownership theory and social identity theory. There's very little variation with the idea "I feel valuable in my guild". Like, you're not actually challenging the study's contents, just the idea that a small-scale study can be comprehensive. Again, if you can't provide an alternative to the inherence of winning and experiencing (to enjoyment, loyalty, etc.), then you're posting nothing.
I read the study completely, gave my view on various sections and challenged those I did not agree with. I do not have to point out the limitations of the study as they are explicitly acknowledged by the study itself. You actually pull out one of the points I agreed with to use against me! I specifically stated I agree wholeheartedly that being part of a corp is highly valuable to player retention.
A small scale study that uses a very limited case study group cannot be comprehensive by definition. The data set provided is acknowledged as potentially flawed and simply isn't big enough to extrapolate any results from in any reliable form.
Again I do not have to find a study to prov that the study you hold up as a paragon of truth actually states it has flaws. You've been banging on that people should read the study end to end. When I do and give a considered response to many points within it you seem to resort to 'lalalalala I'm not listening...'
Loyalty is implicitly tied to social interaction within EvE (whether that be as a part of a corp or alliance or simply a social chat channel). Enjoyment comes from a player participating in those areas of the game (not just capital PvP combat as you seem to think)
A player cannot control the environment in which they play, especially so in EvE where you have other unpredictable players to contend with. You can only control the direction in which your character develops. If you remove the character growth delivered by SP and skills you remove the only thing other than the avatar itself that creates player investment in their character. Hence the control the study talks about is the players control over the character growth. |
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
18
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 18:32:07 -
[4945] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote: . No way SP prices will rise above 1/4 PLEX + Extractor, this is simple market logic
Fairly sure PLEX price is not static and there are daily threads created bemoaning it's continual rise. It's more than possible that rising plex price will prevent new players from buying SPs unless they use R/L cash. So back to the possibility of SPs only being available to rich in game vets and rich in R/L newbs. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
51
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 18:34:51 -
[4946] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Loyalty is implicitly tied to social interaction within EvE (whether that be as a part of a corp or alliance or simply a social chat channel). Enjoyment comes from a player participating in those areas of the game (not just capital PvP combat as you seem to think)
A player cannot control the environment in which they play, especially so in EvE where you have other unpredictable players to contend with. You can only control the direction in which your character develops. If you remove the character growth delivered by SP and skills you remove the only thing other than the avatar itself that creates player investment in their character. Hence the control the study talks about is the players control over the character growth. Social interaction is limited by SP, through effectiveness (status) and productivity (entertainment). That all is the same for gameplay as well, from limitations on exploration (diversity and depth) ..and mastery (fleet comps, being competitive, and practicing ships and fittings and other niches).
You're not defining ideas accurately within the scope of the discussion. A character very well can control the environment, because the definition of that is effectiveness and strategy. Nowhere does the study (nor another, deeper explanation of) control define that as "placing opponents in space". It's about making the most of the character and the full amount of options in the game. It's maximizing opportunity to avoid loss.
You're trying to define a character as this fake identity through trickle-allocated stats, and there's no reason for that. It's basically just an appeal to board-game tradition -- but even those start the character out with full stats (and abilities) from the start. If the gamer is trying to find rapport with the fantasy of playing an MMO character, he can find much less enjoyment with being gated.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
77
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 18:35:53 -
[4947] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote: 1. There is massive room for exploitation with this proposal, big alliances with lots of disposable ISK will be able to instantly train up an alt (and do this very effectively up to 50million SP). On reflection the main issue I have with this is that it is INSTANT, that will make it completely overpowered and exploitable for many of the reasons already detailed.
2. The proposal creates the concept of SP farms, and allows veteran players with lots of spare SP or ISK to setup these farms to milk as much ISK as they can out of it. Also this is PASSIVE income which is something that CCP has been trying to remove from the game, and worst off it is passive income with absolutely no effort required to set it up or defend.
3. The proposal will introduce a grind for SP. I have nothing against a small amount of grinding, but the problem with this is that it introduces the prospect of completely UNLIMITED grinding, you can just continually buy more skill packets. This will not be fun in terms of gameplay as you will miss out on a lot of the more niche aspects of eve, things which you pull off with the tools you have available. So instead of being creative and exploring the possibilities in eve and overcoming odds with knowledge and skill, the main option will be to grind more SP to keep up. There will be no excuse now for not being able to fly the doctrine or perfectly fit ships, if you can't then you will be told to go and grind SP and come back later. This in turn makes the game less fun.
1) Alliances with lots of disposable ISK will be able to instantly train up... newbies. It will pushing newbies to be more social what is good for retaintion rate. 2) Let them. They are already feel offended. 3) Grindig was and grinding will be. |
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
18
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 18:36:34 -
[4948] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote: . FOTM is a balance issue, sames as T3s. SP makes no difference. Certain ships being significantly more effective than others is a problem because it limits variety and interesting gameplay. The solution is balancing the ships, not having SP or ISK barriers (slightly) limiting player choice of ships
See this is more strawman twaddle, I'm not arguing that SP barrier should be solution to FOTM, I am just pointing out the completely reasonable point that instant access would exacerbate FOTM proliferation... and it would.
Try to debate me on the point I actually make and not the one you think you can rebutt.
Edit : The point you make about SPs being like other tradeable commodity and it not making a difference to renters/nullsec landlords is a fair one and I will concede that. |
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
18
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 18:41:17 -
[4949] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote: The proposal creates the concept of SP farms, and allows veteran players with lots of spare SP or ISK to setup these farms to milk as much ISK as they can out of it. Also this is PASSIVE income which is something that CCP has been trying to remove from the game, and worst off it is passive income with absolutely no effort required to set it up or defend.
This is so true is bears repeating.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
164
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 18:46:01 -
[4950] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:no, as you're the one calling me a liar the burden of truth is on you. not me. as for my proof, it's in those links. anyone can read the truth there - the facts i presented.
i said there would be a reduced need for alts and this would lead to a decline in subscribed accounts - that statement ignores the fact that people will simply have SP farming accounts instead. however i didn't comment on that as there's no way to quantify whether or not it'll be a net loss or gain.
my business model comment was in the same post. where i merely pointed out the whole industry has shifted to microtransactions. i didn't make any assumptions about what ccp would do. i asked a question, that question being is it time we accepted that CCP moved from subscriptions to micro transactions. if either of us are liars, it would appear to be you.
You have agreed to my argument. That is what is written there. Or you are trying to deny you wrote it?
Business model comment part (will it switch from subscription to microtransactions) is not even that important as ti might or might not be implemented at some point.
And for links I will say what you have lied with pleasure.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103003#post6103003
Fundamentals are being changed. For previous 12 years there was NO way to increase SP to YOUR char by injecting it, or fastening speed of gaining it beside optimizing attributes and using implants, which are both part of the game.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103187#post6103187
People quitting over some issue definitely cause problems. Beside that it was pointed out how this will affect spying, awoxing, corp thieves etc.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103207#post6103207
Please name those many fundamentals being changed over the years
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103367#post6103367
On character bazaar you purchase characters. As the name implies. You do not buy sp which you can inject to your main char, you buy completely different chars.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103389#post6103389
Same as previous and first post
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103449#post6103449
But it does. With current mechanics you can get lets say 2700 sp per hour with optimized attributes and implants. With the new system you can do that + as much you decide to pay. Ie with old system for 100 hours you could get 270k sp, with new one you can get 5mil or whatever you can afford.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103467#post6103467
As it is stated in the devblog, it favors younger players. Works for everyone but favors young ones.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103502#post6103502
As already explained, you cannot have 300-400 mil sp character now as you are not able to inject sp to existing ones. After the changes that will be affordable for some and that is altering game mechanic since other way it would not be doable before 2020 or so.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103536#post6103536
[b] You cannot go around and buy prestige of top sp players. Simply because their characters are not for sale. And therefore you cannot claim that prestige. I am sure Dr Caymus would not sell his char for all isk in eve. How would you acquire it then?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103624#post6103624
[b] I have already drawn you: Not really. I do not think he is among 1k of characters that were made of start. Consider there were no skill queue back then, there was no evemon, there was no remap. So it took him years of careful planning of schedule, best attributes usage, changing them on time and in the end paying the subscription to be where he is. His dedication is the reason he is top 1. And if CCP sends message that dedication aint mean anything and you can be #1 in something if you pay up, I think its the wrong message.
Looking forward your twisting these out, digressing, trying to manipulate them, avoiding them or whatever
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1868
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 18:46:45 -
[4951] - Quote
Dror wrote: Social interaction is limited by SP, through effectiveness (status) and productivity (entertainment). That all is the same for gameplay as well, from limitations on exploration (diversity and depth) ..and mastery (fleet comps, being competitive, and practicing ships and fittings and other niches).
You're not defining ideas accurately within the scope of the discussion. A character very well can control the environment, because the definition of that is effectiveness and strategy. Nowhere does the study (nor another, deeper explanation of) control define that as "placing opponents in space". It's about making the most of the character and the full amount of options in the game. It's maximizing opportunity to avoid loss.
You're trying to define a character as this fake identity through trickle-allocated stats, and there's no reason for that. It's basically just an appeal to board-game tradition -- but even those start the character out with full stats (and abilities) from the start. If the gamer is trying to find rapport with the fantasy of playing an MMO character, he can find much less enjoyment with being gated.
Social interaction is only limited by a players ability or desire to interact socially. No in game mechanic has anything to do with that in any way shape or form.
Players do not control an environment but rather how they interact with it. They take into account their skills, the characters capabilities, the capability of the ship they are in etc etc etc. It is about maximizing opportunity based upon that which you currently have. Remove something that affects those opportunities and you remove a major part of the decision making process. Thus you diminish the value of the decisions made to a great degree. A large amount of the risk in game comes from pushing yourself into activities that are borderline based upon your character and player skills. The adrenaline rush that comes from that is so much a part of EvE.
I define a character as an avatar that embodies the choices a player has made in game, it is unique to a player and that is what makes a player invested in the character and therefore the game. I don't know what RPG's you are basing your comment on but none of the games I ever tried (and it was many) started characters with full stats and abilities. Literally none of them. Otherwise what would be the point of XP? There would be nothing for them to increase.
If a player i trying to to find rapport with the fantasy of playing an MMO character then that character has to have a 'life' of it's own, it has to grow and change. Removing skill progression basically destroys this rapport as your character is absolutely no different to every other character in game. Bye bye immersion. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
77
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 18:48:38 -
[4952] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:no, as you're the one calling me a liar the burden of truth is on you. not me. as for my proof, it's in those links. anyone can read the truth there - the facts i presented.
i said there would be a reduced need for alts and this would lead to a decline in subscribed accounts - that statement ignores the fact that people will simply have SP farming accounts instead. however i didn't comment on that as there's no way to quantify whether or not it'll be a net loss or gain.
my business model comment was in the same post. where i merely pointed out the whole industry has shifted to microtransactions. i didn't make any assumptions about what ccp would do. i asked a question, that question being is it time we accepted that CCP moved from subscriptions to micro transactions. if either of us are liars, it would appear to be you. You have agreed to my argument. That is what is written there. Or you are trying to deny you wrote it? Business model comment part (will it switch from subscription to microtransactions) is not even that important as ti might or might not be implemented at some point. And for links I will say what you have lied with pleasure. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103003#post6103003 Fundamentals are being changed. For previous 12 years there was NO way to increase SP to YOUR char by injecting it, or fastening speed of gaining it beside optimizing attributes and using implants, which are both part of the game. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103187#post6103187 People quitting over some issue definitely cause problems. Beside that it was pointed out how this will affect spying, awoxing, corp thieves etc. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103207#post6103207 Please name those many fundamentals being changed over the years https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103367#post6103367 On character bazaar you purchase characters. As the name implies. You do not buy sp which you can inject to your main char, you buy completely different chars.https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103389#post6103389 Same as previous and first posthttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103449#post6103449 But it does. With current mechanics you can get lets say 2700 sp per hour with optimized attributes and implants. With the new system you can do that + as much you decide to pay. Ie with old system for 100 hours you could get 270k sp, with new one you can get 5mil or whatever you can afford.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103467#post6103467
As it is stated in the devblog, it favors younger players. Works for everyone but favors young ones.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103502#post6103502
As already explained, you cannot have 300-400 mil sp character now as you are not able to inject sp to existing ones. After the changes that will be affordable for some and that is altering game mechanic since other way it would not be doable before 2020 or so.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103536#post6103536
[b] You cannot go around and buy prestige of top sp players. Simply because their characters are not for sale. And therefore you cannot claim that prestige. I am sure Dr Caymus would not sell his char for all isk in eve. How would you acquire it then?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103624#post6103624
[b] I have already drawn you: Not really. I do not think he is among 1k of characters that were made of start. Consider there were no skill queue back then, there was no evemon, there was no remap. So it took him years of careful planning of schedule, best attributes usage, changing them on time and in the end paying the subscription to be where he is. His dedication is the reason he is top 1. And if CCP sends message that dedication aint mean anything and you can be #1 in something if you pay up, I think its the wrong message.Looking forward your twisting these out, digressing, trying to manipulate them, avoiding them or whatever Wow you took it seriously |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
164
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 18:52:59 -
[4953] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Moac Tor wrote: 1. There is massive room for exploitation with this proposal, big alliances with lots of disposable ISK will be able to instantly train up an alt (and do this very effectively up to 50million SP). On reflection the main issue I have with this is that it is INSTANT, that will make it completely overpowered and exploitable for many of the reasons already detailed.
2. The proposal creates the concept of SP farms, and allows veteran players with lots of spare SP or ISK to setup these farms to milk as much ISK as they can out of it. Also this is PASSIVE income which is something that CCP has been trying to remove from the game, and worst off it is passive income with absolutely no effort required to set it up or defend.
3. The proposal will introduce a grind for SP. I have nothing against a small amount of grinding, but the problem with this is that it introduces the prospect of completely UNLIMITED grinding, you can just continually buy more skill packets. This will not be fun in terms of gameplay as you will miss out on a lot of the more niche aspects of eve, things which you pull off with the tools you have available. So instead of being creative and exploring the possibilities in eve and overcoming odds with knowledge and skill, the main option will be to grind more SP to keep up. There will be no excuse now for not being able to fly the doctrine or perfectly fit ships, if you can't then you will be told to go and grind SP and come back later. This in turn makes the game less fun.
1) Alliances with lots of disposable ISK will be able to instantly train up... newbies. It will pushing newbies to be more social what is good for retaintion rate. 2) Let them. They are already feel offended. 3) Grindig was and grinding will be.
1. I am sure alliances will push a lot of isk in new players which they do not know, have no trust in and see no reason to invest in as they are noobs regardless of sp (most is) 2. Not sure that i got this, you are commenting on farms and that does not seem to be related to that 3. Pushing more people in more grinding stops them from creating / participating in content :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7846
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 19:04:56 -
[4954] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:no, as you're the one calling me a liar the burden of truth is on you. not me. as for my proof, it's in those links. anyone can read the truth there - the facts i presented.
i said there would be a reduced need for alts and this would lead to a decline in subscribed accounts - that statement ignores the fact that people will simply have SP farming accounts instead. however i didn't comment on that as there's no way to quantify whether or not it'll be a net loss or gain.
my business model comment was in the same post. where i merely pointed out the whole industry has shifted to microtransactions. i didn't make any assumptions about what ccp would do. i asked a question, that question being is it time we accepted that CCP moved from subscriptions to micro transactions. if either of us are liars, it would appear to be you. You have agreed to my argument. That is what is written there. Or you are trying to deny you wrote it? Business model comment part (will it switch from subscription to microtransactions) is not even that important as ti might or might not be implemented at some point. And for links I will say what you have lied with pleasure. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103003#post6103003 Fundamentals are being changed. For previous 12 years there was NO way to increase SP to YOUR char by injecting it, or fastening speed of gaining it beside optimizing attributes and using implants, which are both part of the game. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103187#post6103187 People quitting over some issue definitely cause problems. Beside that it was pointed out how this will affect spying, awoxing, corp thieves etc. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103207#post6103207 Please name those many fundamentals being changed over the years https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103367#post6103367 On character bazaar you purchase characters. As the name implies. You do not buy sp which you can inject to your main char, you buy completely different chars.https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103389#post6103389 Same as previous and first posthttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103449#post6103449 But it does. With current mechanics you can get lets say 2700 sp per hour with optimized attributes and implants. With the new system you can do that + as much you decide to pay. Ie with old system for 100 hours you could get 270k sp, with new one you can get 5mil or whatever you can afford.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103467#post6103467
As it is stated in the devblog, it favors younger players. Works for everyone but favors young ones.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103502#post6103502
As already explained, you cannot have 300-400 mil sp character now as you are not able to inject sp to existing ones. After the changes that will be affordable for some and that is altering game mechanic since other way it would not be doable before 2020 or so.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103536#post6103536
[b] You cannot go around and buy prestige of top sp players. Simply because their characters are not for sale. And therefore you cannot claim that prestige. I am sure Dr Caymus would not sell his char for all isk in eve. How would you acquire it then?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103624#post6103624
[b] I have already drawn you: Not really. I do not think he is among 1k of characters that were made of start. Consider there were no skill queue back then, there was no evemon, there was no remap. So it took him years of careful planning of schedule, best attributes usage, changing them on time and in the end paying the subscription to be where he is. His dedication is the reason he is top 1. And if CCP sends message that dedication aint mean anything and you can be #1 in something if you pay up, I think its the wrong message.Looking forward your twisting these out, digressing, trying to manipulate them, avoiding them or whatever
i agreed to a single point you made, that was irrelevant to the discussion being had.
no fundamental is being changed. the character bazaar has always been there to provide you with the ability to obtain characters with vastly more skill points beyond what normal skill training would allow.
|
Dave Stark
7846
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 19:05:50 -
[4955] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Wow you took it seriously
the only serious thing about that post is how wrong he is. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
51
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 19:10:22 -
[4956] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote: Social interaction is limited by SP, through effectiveness (status) and productivity (entertainment). That all is the same for gameplay as well, from limitations on exploration (diversity and depth) ..and mastery (fleet comps, being competitive, and practicing ships and fittings and other niches).
You're not defining ideas accurately within the scope of the discussion. A character very well can control the environment, because the definition of that is effectiveness and strategy. Nowhere does the study (nor another, deeper explanation of) control define that as "placing opponents in space". It's about making the most of the character and the full amount of options in the game. It's maximizing opportunity to avoid loss.
You're trying to define a character as this fake identity through trickle-allocated stats, and there's no reason for that. It's basically just an appeal to board-game tradition -- but even those start the character out with full stats (and abilities) from the start. If the gamer is trying to find rapport with the fantasy of playing an MMO character, he can find much less enjoyment with being gated.
Social interaction is only limited by a players ability or desire to interact socially. No in game mechanic has anything to do with that in any way shape or form. Players do not control an environment but rather how they interact with it. They take into account their skills, the characters capabilities, the capability of the ship they are in etc etc etc. It is about maximizing opportunity based upon that which you currently have. Remove something that affects those opportunities and you remove a major part of the decision making process. Thus you diminish the value of the decisions made to a great degree. A large amount of the risk in game comes from pushing yourself into activities that are borderline based upon your character and player skills. The adrenaline rush that comes from that is so much a part of EvE. I define a character as an avatar that embodies the choices a player has made in game, it is unique to a player and that is what makes a player invested in the character and therefore the game. I don't know what RPG's you are basing your comment on but none of the games I ever tried (and it was many) started characters with full stats and abilities. Literally none of them. Otherwise what would be the point of XP? There would be nothing for them to increase. If a player i trying to to find rapport with the fantasy of playing an MMO character then that character has to have a 'life' of it's own, it has to grow and change. Removing skill progression basically destroys this rapport as your character is absolutely no different to every other character in game. Bye bye immersion. Again, you're inaccurately defining ideas for the scope of the conversation.
Social interaction, per interest in a sandbox MMO, is feeling valid and productive. So, the point defers to the previous post. Specifically, social interaction is much more than sitting on comms. That's possible for any game. If they're bored with the limited window of opportunity, they won't be on anyway; and that's the same for getting completely out-classed to no strategy of theirs. Yet, that very reply says "remove opportunity, and you remove a major part of the decision making process." That's gating.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
77
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 19:14:58 -
[4957] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: 1. I am sure alliances will push a lot of isk in new players which they do not know, have no trust in and see no reason to invest in as they are noobs regardless of sp (most is) 2. Not sure that i got this, you are commenting on farms and that does not seem to be related to that 3. Pushing more people in more grinding stops them from creating / participating in content :)
1) Trust is important thing which need to be desreved. I don't think either that alliances will willing to invest in completly strangers but it defently encourge newbies to be sociable. 2) I talked about vets benefits. More benefits for vets -> less concers about new system from them. 3) Content is very blurred word. I could say that being victim while grinding is content also =) |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
166
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 19:36:47 -
[4958] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i agreed to a single point you made, that was irrelevant to the discussion being had.
ROFL
Dave Stark wrote:1. no fundamental is being changed. the character bazaar has always been there to provide you with the ability to obtain characters with vastly more skill points beyond what normal skill training would allow.
2. that reply has nothing to do with that quote.
3. fundamentals that have been lost? tankable concord, corp friendly fire, think there was something to do with wardecs but that was before my time, and many more i haven't listed.
4. well done, except i'm still correct. people have been bypassing the skill queue crap for years by simply buying characters. there's no lie there, you're just having a bitchfit because i'm right once again.
5. again, buying characters bypasses the skill training stuff just as easily as buying SP.
6. no, the sp acquisition rate does not change. buying SP injects sp. the rate at which you earn SP does not change. just because you're unable to understand the conversation being has doesn't make me a liar, it makes you illiterate.
7. it still favours everyone, as everyone can use it. who gets more benefit from it is irrelevant.
8. nothing i have said there is a lie. the game is designed to support players with that many SP. that's the entire intention of the SP system. how many people have that much SP or how many sp people have currently is completely irrelevant. nothing i said in that post is factually incorrect.
9. i said if you want lots of SP you can buy it - fact. once more you're calling me a liar because you simply cannot understand basic english.
hit a text limit apparently, it's already apparent nothing i've said is false and you have poor reading skills
1. No matter how many times you repeat the lie it will not become the truth. Character bazaar is not the same as it sells characters. Not SP. You cannot twist it out, but keep trying.
2. Of course it does, you said fundamentals are not being changed, I have explained you how they are.
3. Those were not fundamentals, it is like saying fundamentals are being changed because they changed ship stats. Keep trying. Er sorry, keep lying :D Also both of them are not affecting whole player base as only minor amount of players was actually doing it, while change in topic affects every single player no matter do they like it or not. Also, mentioning only 2 from many? Haha, pathetic try, please provide more of your "many". Try with some real examples this time.
4. Except you are again not correct. Buying characters does not bypass skill training on your char. You buy new character, you do not improve existing one.
5. Again incorrect. Buying character gets you new character with some amount of SP. It does not improve your original character. And it will not start doing it no matter how many times you lie about it
6. Sp acquisition rate increases as it does not matter how did you get it, just training or injections as well. What matter when we are talking about rates is the result in time period and with injections it is affected. So it changes.
7. It does not favour everyone, try noticing diminishing returns and reading devblog. It is available for use for everyone but it favours younger players. And if the question is "who is favoured by it" and your answer is "it is irrelevant" just shows your dodging skills.
8. Nice try digressing out of it. As I said you CANNOT have 400mil sp character with the current game mechanics and after the implementation of this you will be able to have it next day if you can afford it. Regular way you would not be able to have it before 2020. And of course you have tried dodging it when you were asked first time, you are doing the same now :shocker:
9. You said that prestige can be bought now as well. I have proven you that top prestige cannot be bought. You can buy chars with "lots" of SP. But your "lots of sp" compared to "top sp" is a joke.
There you go, once again proven wrong. Every single line there you have false statements, presenting them as they are facts. And that is just 10 out of couple hundred posts you have spammed here. You can try dodging again by blaming it on reading skills or whatever and keep being labeled liar, noise maker or provide some real arguments (for the first time in this topic)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
166
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 19:37:50 -
[4959] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:General Lootit wrote:Wow you took it seriously the only serious thing about that post is how wrong he is.
Yet you failed to prove it, but boom headshot, nuked you again liar
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7846
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 19:39:35 -
[4960] - Quote
between repeating myself, and your inability to comprehend basic english there's literally no point replying to you. |
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
166
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 19:40:54 -
[4961] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: 1. I am sure alliances will push a lot of isk in new players which they do not know, have no trust in and see no reason to invest in as they are noobs regardless of sp (most is) 2. Not sure that i got this, you are commenting on farms and that does not seem to be related to that 3. Pushing more people in more grinding stops them from creating / participating in content :)
1) Trust is important thing which need to be desreved. I don't think either that alliances will willing to invest in completly strangers but it defently encourge newbies to be sociable(earning trust and learning from vets). 2) I talked about vets benefits. More benefits for vets -> less concerns about new system from them. 3) Content is very blurred word. I could say that being victim while grinding is content also =)
1. To develop trust it takes time. And while they develop that trust they might not be noobs anymore :) Though they still might be on the level to find a boost useful, but already in segment of diminishing returns. Not sure how many corps/alliances would be ready for such investments. 2. Somehow it seemed to me that his 2nd concern was about farms? :D 3. Agreed to certain point. But if hunters are grinding as well, there is no one to make them victims
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
166
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 19:41:59 -
[4962] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:between repeating myself, and your inability to comprehend basic english there's literally no point replying to you.
Thanks for avoiding it again and proving my point. You sir are a liar, you had a chance to disapprove me, yet you have failed.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dave Stark
7846
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 19:43:43 -
[4963] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:between repeating myself, and your inability to comprehend basic english there's literally no point replying to you. Thanks for avoiding it again and proving my point. You sir are a liar, you had a chance to disapprove me, yet you have failed.
i did disprove you, several times.
anyway - this is happening so you can stop crying now. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
166
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 19:44:52 -
[4964] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:between repeating myself, and your inability to comprehend basic english there's literally no point replying to you. Thanks for avoiding it again and proving my point. You sir are a liar, you had a chance to disapprove me, yet you have failed. i did disprove you, several times.
Nope, you have failed miserably. What you have tried it to repeat your lies, twist out my words, take things out of context. You have failed in that liar.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
77
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 20:09:43 -
[4965] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:1. To develop trust it takes time. And while they develop that trust they might not be noobs anymore :) Though they still might be on the level to find a boost useful, but already in segment of diminishing returns. Not sure how many corps/alliances would be ready for such investments. 2. Somehow it seemed to me that his 2nd concern was about farms? :D 3. Agreed to certain point. But if hunters are grinding as well, there is no one to make them victims You are nice man to talk to =)
1) If they seeking for advantange over another allince than they might do that even with newcomers. Logistics are helpful even if they are noobs. Might is key word. We can't know for sure not me, not you in what point they are will willing to invest. 2) Yeap and it's strange. "Look I can earn money, stop me somebody from doing that" 3) PvE fits are more effective in grinding and less relevant in PvP. So it force you to choose between safety and greed. Hunter will choose PvP fit when he want to setup a trap. Then hunter become hunted =) Mobile depot is also a choice. So it could be fun |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
126
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 20:11:36 -
[4966] - Quote
Dror wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote: Social interaction is limited by SP, through effectiveness (status) and productivity (entertainment). That all is the same for gameplay as well, from limitations on exploration (diversity and depth) ..and mastery (fleet comps, being competitive, and practicing ships and fittings and other niches).
You're not defining ideas accurately within the scope of the discussion. A character very well can control the environment, because the definition of that is effectiveness and strategy. Nowhere does the study (nor another, deeper explanation of) control define that as "placing opponents in space". It's about making the most of the character and the full amount of options in the game. It's maximizing opportunity to avoid loss.
You're trying to define a character as this fake identity through trickle-allocated stats, and there's no reason for that. It's basically just an appeal to board-game tradition -- but even those start the character out with full stats (and abilities) from the start. If the gamer is trying to find rapport with the fantasy of playing an MMO character, he can find much less enjoyment with being gated.
Social interaction is only limited by a players ability or desire to interact socially. No in game mechanic has anything to do with that in any way shape or form. Players do not control an environment but rather how they interact with it. They take into account their skills, the characters capabilities, the capability of the ship they are in etc etc etc. It is about maximizing opportunity based upon that which you currently have. Remove something that affects those opportunities and you remove a major part of the decision making process. Thus you diminish the value of the decisions made to a great degree. A large amount of the risk in game comes from pushing yourself into activities that are borderline based upon your character and player skills. The adrenaline rush that comes from that is so much a part of EvE. I define a character as an avatar that embodies the choices a player has made in game, it is unique to a player and that is what makes a player invested in the character and therefore the game. I don't know what RPG's you are basing your comment on but none of the games I ever tried (and it was many) started characters with full stats and abilities. Literally none of them. Otherwise what would be the point of XP? There would be nothing for them to increase. If a player i trying to to find rapport with the fantasy of playing an MMO character then that character has to have a 'life' of it's own, it has to grow and change. Removing skill progression basically destroys this rapport as your character is absolutely no different to every other character in game. Bye bye immersion. Again, you're inaccurately defining ideas for the scope of the conversation. Social interaction, per interest in a sandbox MMO, is feeling valid and productive. So, the point defers to the previous post. Specifically, social interaction is much more than sitting on comms. That's possible for any game. If they're bored with the limited window of opportunity, they won't be on anyway; and that's the same for getting completely out-classed to no strategy of theirs. Yet, that very reply says "remove opportunity, and you remove a major part of the decision making process." That's gating.
Dror are you interpreting this from the study or your personal experiences in game, Ive had 2 hour old toons not even connected with anything i do corp wise coming out with me on level4 runs, told to hold back, let me clear area's and get them salvaging anything to get them going. In corp we do the same, gets rep up for jumps, we get them practising bait n tackle in t1's all while advising them on skill training programs for ceptors AF or cruiser variants, but alot now are opting for svipul. As soon as we log on theres always some recruit wanting to do something and very much eager to learn. I get with your starting quitting starting quitting routine you've never actually found a place in game and certainly not had much experience with skill training and optimised paths in attaining those goals easily. You can pick up on this by your negativity towards certain aspects.
On looking through that study it doesnt say if they were on a pure pvp servers either for the games listed. If it was conducted on PVE only then there is a huge discrepancy as social interaction is limited to guild / clans in a basically non hostile enviroments EvE is harsh no matter if your in hi or null, as stated the only time your truely safe is docked so people are always on there guard. There is no limited window either, if your not willing to learn / slacker you dont stay theres always a newguy waiting to step up and go on a roam early on. People have to make the effort to communicate, its always easier when you say Hi that first time, within a day or 2 instead of silence theyre calling you mate or bud or bastard . The game is limitless if you interact with those around you.
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 20:19:23 -
[4967] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote: Social interaction is limited by SP, through effectiveness (status) and productivity (entertainment). That all is the same for gameplay as well, from limitations on exploration (diversity and depth) ..and mastery (fleet comps, being competitive, and practicing ships and fittings and other niches).
You're not defining ideas accurately within the scope of the discussion. A character very well can control the environment, because the definition of that is effectiveness and strategy. Nowhere does the study (nor another, deeper explanation of) control define that as "placing opponents in space". It's about making the most of the character and the full amount of options in the game. It's maximizing opportunity to avoid loss.
You're trying to define a character as this fake identity through trickle-allocated stats, and there's no reason for that. It's basically just an appeal to board-game tradition -- but even those start the character out with full stats (and abilities) from the start. If the gamer is trying to find rapport with the fantasy of playing an MMO character, he can find much less enjoyment with being gated.
Social interaction is only limited by a players ability or desire to interact socially. No in game mechanic has anything to do with that in any way shape or form. Players do not control an environment but rather how they interact with it. They take into account their skills, the characters capabilities, the capability of the ship they are in etc etc etc. It is about maximizing opportunity based upon that which you currently have. Remove something that affects those opportunities and you remove a major part of the decision making process. Thus you diminish the value of the decisions made to a great degree. A large amount of the risk in game comes from pushing yourself into activities that are borderline based upon your character and player skills. The adrenaline rush that comes from that is so much a part of EvE. I define a character as an avatar that embodies the choices a player has made in game, it is unique to a player and that is what makes a player invested in the character and therefore the game. I don't know what RPG's you are basing your comment on but none of the games I ever tried (and it was many) started characters with full stats and abilities. Literally none of them. Otherwise what would be the point of XP? There would be nothing for them to increase. If a player i trying to to find rapport with the fantasy of playing an MMO character then that character has to have a 'life' of it's own, it has to grow and change. Removing skill progression basically destroys this rapport as your character is absolutely no different to every other character in game. Bye bye immersion. Again, you're inaccurately defining ideas for the scope of the conversation. Social interaction, per interest in a sandbox MMO, is feeling valid and productive. So, the point defers to the previous post. Specifically, social interaction is much more than sitting on comms. That's possible for any game. If they're bored with the limited window of opportunity, they won't be on anyway; and that's the same for getting completely out-classed to no strategy of theirs. Yet, that very reply says "remove opportunity, and you remove a major part of the decision making process." That's gating. Dror are you interpreting this from the study or your personal experiences in game, Ive had 2 hour old toons not even connected with anything i do corp wise coming out with me on level4 runs, told to hold back, let me clear area's and get them salvaging anything to get them going. In corp we do the same, gets rep up for jumps, we get them practising bait n tackle in t1's all while advising them on skill training programs for ceptors AF or cruiser variants, but alot now are opting for svipul. As soon as we log on theres always some recruit wanting to do something and very much eager to learn. I get with your starting quitting starting quitting routine you've never actually found a place in game and certainly not had much experience with skill training and optimised paths in attaining those goals easily. You can pick up on this by your negativity towards certain aspects. On looking through that study it doesnt say if they were on a pure pvp servers either for the games listed. If it was conducted on PVE only then there is a huge discrepancy as social interaction is limited to guild / clans in a basically non hostile enviroments EvE is harsh no matter if your in hi or null, as stated the only time your truely safe is docked so people are always on there guard. There is no limited window either, if your not willing to learn / slacker you dont stay theres always a newguy waiting to step up and go on a roam early on. People have to make the effort to communicate, its always easier when you say Hi that first time, within a day or 2 instead of silence theyre calling you mate or bud or bastard . The game is limitless if you interact with those around you. None of that refutes what was said.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2074
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 20:24:00 -
[4968] - Quote
Pathetic.
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
126
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 20:26:27 -
[4969] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dror wrote: Social interaction is limited by SP, through effectiveness (status) and productivity (entertainment). That all is the same for gameplay as well, from limitations on exploration (diversity and depth) ..and mastery (fleet comps, being competitive, and practicing ships and fittings and other niches).
You're not defining ideas accurately within the scope of the discussion. A character very well can control the environment, because the definition of that is effectiveness and strategy. Nowhere does the study (nor another, deeper explanation of) control define that as "placing opponents in space". It's about making the most of the character and the full amount of options in the game. It's maximizing opportunity to avoid loss.
You're trying to define a character as this fake identity through trickle-allocated stats, and there's no reason for that. It's basically just an appeal to board-game tradition -- but even those start the character out with full stats (and abilities) from the start. If the gamer is trying to find rapport with the fantasy of playing an MMO character, he can find much less enjoyment with being gated.
Social interaction is only limited by a players ability or desire to interact socially. No in game mechanic has anything to do with that in any way shape or form. Players do not control an environment but rather how they interact with it. They take into account their skills, the characters capabilities, the capability of the ship they are in etc etc etc. It is about maximizing opportunity based upon that which you currently have. Remove something that affects those opportunities and you remove a major part of the decision making process. Thus you diminish the value of the decisions made to a great degree. A large amount of the risk in game comes from pushing yourself into activities that are borderline based upon your character and player skills. The adrenaline rush that comes from that is so much a part of EvE. I define a character as an avatar that embodies the choices a player has made in game, it is unique to a player and that is what makes a player invested in the character and therefore the game. I don't know what RPG's you are basing your comment on but none of the games I ever tried (and it was many) started characters with full stats and abilities. Literally none of them. Otherwise what would be the point of XP? There would be nothing for them to increase. If a player i trying to to find rapport with the fantasy of playing an MMO character then that character has to have a 'life' of it's own, it has to grow and change. Removing skill progression basically destroys this rapport as your character is absolutely no different to every other character in game. Bye bye immersion. Again, you're inaccurately defining ideas for the scope of the conversation. Social interaction, per interest in a sandbox MMO, is feeling valid and productive. So, the point defers to the previous post. Specifically, social interaction is much more than sitting on comms. That's possible for any game. If they're bored with the limited window of opportunity, they won't be on anyway; and that's the same for getting completely out-classed to no strategy of theirs. Yet, that very reply says "remove opportunity, and you remove a major part of the decision making process." That's gating. Dror are you interpreting this from the study or your personal experiences in game, Ive had 2 hour old toons not even connected with anything i do corp wise coming out with me on level4 runs, told to hold back, let me clear area's and get them salvaging anything to get them going. In corp we do the same, gets rep up for jumps, we get them practising bait n tackle in t1's all while advising them on skill training programs for ceptors AF or cruiser variants, but alot now are opting for svipul. As soon as we log on theres always some recruit wanting to do something and very much eager to learn. I get with your starting quitting starting quitting routine you've never actually found a place in game and certainly not had much experience with skill training and optimised paths in attaining those goals easily. You can pick up on this by your negativity towards certain aspects. On looking through that study it doesnt say if they were on a pure pvp servers either for the games listed. If it was conducted on PVE only then there is a huge discrepancy as social interaction is limited to guild / clans in a basically non hostile enviroments EvE is harsh no matter if your in hi or null, as stated the only time your truely safe is docked so people are always on there guard. There is no limited window either, if your not willing to learn / slacker you dont stay theres always a newguy waiting to step up and go on a roam early on. People have to make the effort to communicate, its always easier when you say Hi that first time, within a day or 2 instead of silence theyre calling you mate or bud or bastard . The game is limitless if you interact with those around you. None of that refutes what was said. What that you are a narcissist with a distorted and inflated sense of self, driven by what you get out of something and when your proven wrong on all points revert to as quoted by you strawman tactics or that you have not got a clue if they were performed on pve or pvp servers.
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
83
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 20:29:58 -
[4970] - Quote
Rek Seven has great signature about "content" word
Quote:Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks |
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
127
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 21:26:44 -
[4971] - Quote
Dror wrote:It's very specifically defined as the control a character has over his environment. That includes the opportunity to win, produce, strategize, and improve.
The idea about SP providing even-field "character progression" is worthless for criticizing the game without SP.
Beyond all of that, the study is just correlating previous theories and a study sample for more evidence. You can't refute the inherence of winning and fairness and opportunity to interest and motivation. You obviously can't evidence that "pretend" character progression (SP) is more powerful than actual character progression, effectiveness, and experiences.
Posts refuted. Enjoy.
Ive found a piece where they must of moved the study to PVP briefly.
In most MMORPGs, initial game quests can be accomplished easily without the assistance of other players. However, later and more advanced game quests are difficult and can be accomplished only by collaborating with other players. Because players need to cooperate to advance in the game, players must join a group, society, or guild. For instance, when players battle against other game players, a strong guild membership is essential for survival, and it is nearly impossible to win without a guild
Not so much of an even playing field now theyre on EvE turf.
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
56
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 21:33:55 -
[4972] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:It's very specifically defined as the control a character has over his environment. That includes the opportunity to win, produce, strategize, and improve.
The idea about SP providing even-field "character progression" is worthless for criticizing the game without SP.
Beyond all of that, the study is just correlating previous theories and a study sample for more evidence. You can't refute the inherence of winning and fairness and opportunity to interest and motivation. You obviously can't evidence that "pretend" character progression (SP) is more powerful than actual character progression, effectiveness, and experiences.
Posts refuted. Enjoy. Ive found a piece where they must of moved the study to PVP briefly. In most MMORPGs, initial game quests can be accomplished easily without the assistance of other players. However, later and more advanced game quests are difficult and can be accomplished only by collaborating with other players. Because players need to cooperate to advance in the game, players must join a group, society, or guild. For instance, when players battle against other game players, a strong guild membership is essential for survival, and it is nearly impossible to win without a guildNot so much of an even playing field now theyre on EvE turf. So, what's to be said of the starter corps with low SP? Just don't undock? A lot of fresh corp members are completely fresh players, and they're the majority that log on. It's unnecessarily restricting that they can't really play the game like it's meant to be played, and it can completely empty out corp comms.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
127
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 21:45:02 -
[4973] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:It's very specifically defined as the control a character has over his environment. That includes the opportunity to win, produce, strategize, and improve.
The idea about SP providing even-field "character progression" is worthless for criticizing the game without SP.
Beyond all of that, the study is just correlating previous theories and a study sample for more evidence. You can't refute the inherence of winning and fairness and opportunity to interest and motivation. You obviously can't evidence that "pretend" character progression (SP) is more powerful than actual character progression, effectiveness, and experiences.
Posts refuted. Enjoy. Ive found a piece where they must of moved the study to PVP briefly. In most MMORPGs, initial game quests can be accomplished easily without the assistance of other players. However, later and more advanced game quests are difficult and can be accomplished only by collaborating with other players. Because players need to cooperate to advance in the game, players must join a group, society, or guild. For instance, when players battle against other game players, a strong guild membership is essential for survival, and it is nearly impossible to win without a guildNot so much of an even playing field now theyre on EvE turf. So, what's to be said of the starter corps with low SP? Just don't undock? A lot of fresh corp members are completely fresh players, and they're the majority that log on. It's unnecessarily restricting that they can't really play the game like it's meant to be played, and it can completely empty out corp comms. As stated earlier you can be in a T3D ship before the time your trial expires, you can salvage you can pvp with like minded souls if you desire, You can even mission run to test if thats your forte. Its about setting goals and taking small steps into the unknown.
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 21:59:23 -
[4974] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:It's very specifically defined as the control a character has over his environment. That includes the opportunity to win, produce, strategize, and improve.
The idea about SP providing even-field "character progression" is worthless for criticizing the game without SP.
Beyond all of that, the study is just correlating previous theories and a study sample for more evidence. You can't refute the inherence of winning and fairness and opportunity to interest and motivation. You obviously can't evidence that "pretend" character progression (SP) is more powerful than actual character progression, effectiveness, and experiences.
Posts refuted. Enjoy. Ive found a piece where they must of moved the study to PVP briefly. In most MMORPGs, initial game quests can be accomplished easily without the assistance of other players. However, later and more advanced game quests are difficult and can be accomplished only by collaborating with other players. Because players need to cooperate to advance in the game, players must join a group, society, or guild. For instance, when players battle against other game players, a strong guild membership is essential for survival, and it is nearly impossible to win without a guildNot so much of an even playing field now theyre on EvE turf. So, what's to be said of the starter corps with low SP? Just don't undock? A lot of fresh corp members are completely fresh players, and they're the majority that log on. It's unnecessarily restricting that they can't really play the game like it's meant to be played, and it can completely empty out corp comms. As stated earlier you can be in a T3D ship before the time your trial expires, you can salvage you can pvp with like minded souls if you desire, You can even mission run to test if thats your forte. Its about setting goals and taking small steps into the unknown. You've already listed what it takes to get that fitting. It's like that for every niche.
That's not fulfilling.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
127
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 22:13:20 -
[4975] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:It's very specifically defined as the control a character has over his environment. That includes the opportunity to win, produce, strategize, and improve.
The idea about SP providing even-field "character progression" is worthless for criticizing the game without SP.
Beyond all of that, the study is just correlating previous theories and a study sample for more evidence. You can't refute the inherence of winning and fairness and opportunity to interest and motivation. You obviously can't evidence that "pretend" character progression (SP) is more powerful than actual character progression, effectiveness, and experiences.
Posts refuted. Enjoy. Ive found a piece where they must of moved the study to PVP briefly. In most MMORPGs, initial game quests can be accomplished easily without the assistance of other players. However, later and more advanced game quests are difficult and can be accomplished only by collaborating with other players. Because players need to cooperate to advance in the game, players must join a group, society, or guild. For instance, when players battle against other game players, a strong guild membership is essential for survival, and it is nearly impossible to win without a guildNot so much of an even playing field now theyre on EvE turf. So, what's to be said of the starter corps with low SP? Just don't undock? A lot of fresh corp members are completely fresh players, and they're the majority that log on. It's unnecessarily restricting that they can't really play the game like it's meant to be played, and it can completely empty out corp comms. As stated earlier you can be in a T3D ship before the time your trial expires, you can salvage you can pvp with like minded souls if you desire, You can even mission run to test if thats your forte. Its about setting goals and taking small steps into the unknown. You've already listed what it takes to get that fitting. It's like that for every niche. That's not fulfilling. Try eve uni - If they can't sort you/new players out i dont think you will ever find what it is your seeking. Theres no quick fix in EvE you reap what you sow.
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 22:17:01 -
[4976] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote: You've already listed what it takes to get that fitting. It's like that for every niche.
That's not fulfilling.
Try eve uni - If they can't sort you/new players out i dont think you will ever find what it is your seeking. Theres no quick fix in EvE you reap what you sow. It has nothing to do with a specific character. The game has retention problems. If SP is so fine, there would be no announcement to update it.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
183
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 22:17:17 -
[4977] - Quote
One point is interesting, after all this.
Content really means little to nothing.
It is like those pvp nuts talking about factional warfare. No one gives a flying crap about eve RP and Politics, there is not much you can do to make factional warfare justly reward if it is not a mere case of "playing your role". If there is no good factional warfare is because there is no good faction warriors.
Null, Low, Hisec is bad for this or that reason. All bull ... it is bad because players do what they think is best for them, which is the "Caldari States of Lonetrek" ****** mentality that what is best for the individual is best for all. That is the fastest way to wreck a community for everyone.
So, this and other dev "patchworks" for making the game interesting are really crappy, but in a community that doest really give a **** about others in the average, that is exactly what needs to be done.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1670
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 22:20:59 -
[4978] - Quote
Dror wrote:It has nothing to do with a specific character. The game has retention problems. If SP is so fine, there would be no announcement to update it. "If we change something that's proof it's flawed and needs done away with" is not sound reasoning.
By this logic we wouldn't have much if a game left.
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 22:22:21 -
[4979] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:It has nothing to do with a specific character. The game has retention problems. If SP is so fine, there would be no announcement to update it. "If we change something that's proof it's flawed and needs done away with" is not sound reasoning. By this logic we wouldn't have much if a game left. So, if it's a problem, what is the issue?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
127
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 22:28:09 -
[4980] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote: You've already listed what it takes to get that fitting. It's like that for every niche.
That's not fulfilling.
Try eve uni - If they can't sort you/new players out i dont think you will ever find what it is your seeking. Theres no quick fix in EvE you reap what you sow. It has nothing to do with a specific character. The game has retention problems. If SP is so fine, there would be no announcement to update it. Well some things are being addressed by whats been posted here, the whole skillpoint debacle is for the most part a grasping measure and with thought i really hope wont get passed, but its CCP - GÇ£Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.GÇ¥
If a man gets nine women pregnant, does that mean i get a baby in 1 month
"Dror's Law" states that if you hide the fact its not the same man or the same month - Yes !
|
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1670
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 22:28:44 -
[4981] - Quote
Dror wrote:So, if it's a problem, what is the issue? Everything that has ever changed by your reasoning, which means all those aspects need eliminated. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 22:56:15 -
[4982] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:So, if it's a problem, what is the issue? Everything that has ever changed by your reasoning, which means all those aspects need eliminated. *Strawman*
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
127
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 23:19:14 -
[4983] - Quote
Dror wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:So, if it's a problem, what is the issue? Everything that has ever changed by your reasoning, which means all those aspects need eliminated. *Strawman*
Dror ive come to the conclusion your one of those glass is always half empty people, maybe one day you will find something that will lighten your load
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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ISD Atomic Dove
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
67
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 00:20:05 -
[4984] - Quote
Temporarily locked for cleaning,
Be right back folks!
ISD Atomic Dove
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1670
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 00:38:31 -
[4985] - Quote
Dror wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:So, if it's a problem, what is the issue? Everything that has ever changed by your reasoning, which means all those aspects need eliminated. *Strawman* So you're saying you didn't say "If SP is so fine, there would be no announcement to update it?"
It looks like you did, thus critiquing your logic isn't a *strawman* |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 01:01:23 -
[4986] - Quote
very good way to loose subs,
just take all the SP away from your other accounts and place it all in to a toon and come out with a 400SP toon never have to train again,and going to save load of money on subs which ccp will loose out, ccp will loose a lot of subs to why someone would need 4 or 5 accounts.
bad idea of ccp worse idea, |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1670
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 01:05:10 -
[4987] - Quote
Suede wrote:very good way to loose subs,
just take all the SP away from your other accounts and place it all in to a toon and come out with a 400SP toon never have to train again,and going to save load of money on subs which ccp will loose out, ccp will loose a lot of subs to why someone would need 4 or 5 accounts.
bad idea of ccp worse idea, Why would someone combine alts at a 10% return while bearing the costs for hundreds of extractors to facilitate the transfers of the SP?
Worse, why would someone have enough decently trained alts to accommodate that and actually want to cripple them all? |
Imagined Self
The-Ultraviolet-Realm
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 01:09:32 -
[4988] - Quote
At first I was excited... Im trying to catch up to the times and its impossible... the sp buying would be great to buy up some missed time and maybe have more an edge on my competitors, get me an edge in some pve and pvp, a few more cyno alts, a few more bombers, and even yea, miners... at least buff up the once I have already. The more I thought of it though, and after reading the dev blog, I feel this is totally manipulating the game perspective and feel. It isnt real anymore, cause I can simply buy sp... and add it to my accounts with no time. The curve idea, I get that... but really, now your like taking that time away, the real value item here. So its like spending all that time to get 10 mil sp, ya sell it, but the buyer pays a full price, Im sure this wont be cheap either, and wont even get point for point the value of said item... which in honestly time. that idea, pointed out to me on the john and I had to share it. I really dislike that everyone now will be buffed up, over powered... no way, ******* no way is this a good idea. Eve is hard enough as it is... to evolve behind the curve...
I just feel like CCP, you have ******* lost your marbles. You changed Eve so much, its not even familiar to me anymore, you have sold the **** out. and that is not a good thing, Ill say it, I hope others will say it too. No disrespect intended, I absolutley LOVE Eve Online... I have had so much IRL ****, homeless, addiction, wife aggro, just crazy **** and I have always kept myself together for some reason, always giving more a **** about Eve than what is happening to my job or my gf, People literally adapt their lives around Eve... Im not the only one. Despite my problems in life, everyone has them... to varying degree, my point is we are addicted to Eve and that idea it gives us of freedom, or exploration, innocence and complete evilish tendencies at times, lol I know there is tons of fun in piracy to be had. But if you cheat me out of my isk, sp, time, my love of the game concept, the way eve has been up till what its becoming, like all the other star spaceship games out there, its just really gonna loose its core idea... and that feeling. this makes me really sad man. The capital changes too... they so drastic... and for what?
this actually may be me signing off from eve, Ill find someone to buy my accounts from me, cause i have done the wrong thing, investing so much into something like Eve Online. I literally have lost everything I own, my family and friends... dude, and Eve is gone too... its changed so much, Ill never get to experience it like I thought I could, if only I had found Eve from the get go. I feel like with all these changes, eve is gone. and for that, i bid you all farewell. We will see what is what, I know I gotta move on, personally, cause I cant live in my car and try to finish college and deal with reality, with all that is going on in the world, its like no one cares, we all hide from it and wont face the truth... Ive been ashamed for my actions in the service but tbh I cant regret it cause jet fuel doenst ******* melt steel beams and every countrys gov is corrupt to the core, religion is ******, cant even smoke a plant to deal with the insanity without going to jail or being an addict or wtf ever... i know why soldiers commit suicide and I feel so bad for them cause simply I feel it too, people just dont ******* care! they cant feel, they wont feel, either too conditioned or coward to do the moral thing.
Eve has kept me honest and helped me to grow in ways i have never thought possible. I tell ya its been so cool... to fly in space! and run from pirates! or becuase you ARE the pirate! It has helped me to see, we cannot be alone in our universe. impossible, cause you are here... we are all here. I get depressed cause Ive felt such a connection with this Earth and the people and the love of the energy... and all that is around us, and everything we create, we seem to destroy. it baffles me... eve in a silly video game where nothing is really real,... just the fact taht im here and i collapse wave functions is it. What now... after loosing my kids... everything is gone. and the one thing I care about as much as them... the one thing I ahve left... is changing so fast. |
Vasama
Nosferatu Security Foundation
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 01:33:59 -
[4989] - Quote
We have problem. We need more players to EvE. And I mean we the EvE players need more friends, targets, scammers and neutrals (well CCP needs them too). Sunday evening primetime - 32000 players on. It should be double - triple would be even better. How many real players there are behind that number? How many players are double or triple boxing? Anyone octa boxing? EvE needs more active players. Finding ways to include players to content in eve is in everyone's best interest.
SP is the only real capital in game in sense that it enables different roles, it enables player to make ISK, to fight etc. SP will not make better player, but it enables one to try and do stuff and be included to more activities if one so choose.
Skill system has had only minor changes so far, but measures are needed to get the newer players effective faster - some of the steps have already been taken, but more is needed and I think that argument that because GÇ£I have 100 mil skill points and suffered the fitting skills the new players need to do that tooGÇ¥ is unhealthy and bad for the overall game. Everyday the skill gap between the new player and older players is bigger than ever before.
IMHO the plans outlined on this dev blog are not the right answer. It lacks the GÇ£EvE hurt factorGÇ¥. There is no downside inside the game for this. Take ex. boosters they boost something but they have ill effects as well. Now where is the ill effect of Transneural Skill Packets? ISK? Money? No they donGÇÖt count.
Instead of generic SP packets there could be GÇ£Shock Learning ProgramGÇ¥ (SLP) introduced to the game. Function: Get single skill from lvl 4 to lvl 5. Now that would make most folks to learn a skill to lvl 4 and then for that long long lvl 5 they would have a choice. Learn the skill old fashioned way or buy the new Shock Learning Program. Downside of using SLP could be that for certain period of time, after using SLP, the learning would be hindered ex. your char would learn with your lowest attributes for x amount of days (active learning days - if the char is not learning the counter is stopped). One determining factor for that could be the total amount of skill points, training time multiplier of SLP used, and how fast one injects SLPs.. So you get GÇ£learning fatigueGÇ¥ by injecting Shock Learning skills and more you do it longer it takes to recover from it. Engineering, shield, armor, frigate, navigation, mining, industry and even cruiser learning from 4 to 5 could be revard from some learning tutorials etc.
SLPs could also be manufactured by players. You would need a antibody, skill book that you would have to learn like: GÇ£Amarr Cruiser Shock learningGÇ¥. Once you would have actually learned the skill to lvl 5 and you have the antibody acquired and you could manufacture a shock learning package from Amarr Cruiser from lvl 4 to 5. When you would make that you would actually lose the Amarr Cruiser Shock learning skill and Amarr Cruiser skill. All the skills that would have amarr cruiser as prerequisite would not function until you would have required new copy of the skill book and learned it to the needed level. Things like learning implants not working and using lower attributes for x amount of time after the package would be made. Also faster you make the packages the bigger the fatigue etc. So no selling of generic skill points but selling the skill lvl 5. Sourcing of the antibody and Shock learning skills? Aurum? In game? Manufactured by players?
This way players would still need be familiar with the skill system and get feel to it, but significant time savings can be achieved. Players could sell some skills, but there would be ingame price for making and using SLPs.
Brainstorm on,
Vasama
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 02:02:23 -
[4990] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:So, if it's a problem, what is the issue? Everything that has ever changed by your reasoning, which means all those aspects need eliminated. *Strawman* So you're saying you didn't say "If SP is so fine, there would be no announcement to update it?" It looks like you did, thus critiquing your logic isn't a *strawman* You're strawman'ing the logic to make it more simple to critique.
Also, there's a question unanswered about the depth of SP as a problem.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1670
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 02:08:01 -
[4991] - Quote
Dror wrote:You're strawman'ing the logic to make it more simple to critique.
Also, there's a question unanswered about the depth of SP as a problem. The logic in the response presented was exactly that simple. You made no attempt at justification beyond "If SP is so fine, there would be no announcement to update it."
Regarding the depth of SP as a problem, there is none demonstrated. That you would have it changed leaves the burden of proof on you, and in none of the threads you've engaged on have you met that burden.
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Ryker Sabezan
Ryker Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 02:12:22 -
[4992] - Quote
Im Neutral on this i think it will be good for new players but then could see it destroying the game. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
206
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 02:55:25 -
[4993] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: Answer this one then.
When are you gonna resign from CCP?
Lol so mad. Also ccp seagull said this feature is imprtant to the future of the future of eve yesterday at eve vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening.
Then Eve is finish and you'll be looking for another job within a year after it hits. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
206
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 03:07:22 -
[4994] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: Answer this one then.
When are you gonna resign from CCP?
Lol so mad. Also ccp seagull said this feature is imprtant to the future of the future of eve yesterday at eve vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening. Of course it is happening, it was clear from the start by the lack of the communication of CCP with players here. They did not want to discuss about it and to see what to adjust, they have decided on it and they do not care what players have to say :shocker:. Ah well, guess the players will send the message via subscriptions.
I just hope they roll out with it ASAP before my subs expire so I can clear away any doubts about leaving this game for good.
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Kaivar Lancer
Placid Peace Corps
696
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 03:25:23 -
[4995] - Quote
Lots of butthurt bitter vets in this thread.
I won't benefit from this change much (got at least 40m SP, last time I checked, so I don't need much more SP). It would make NO DIFFERENCE if some noob buys himself 10m SP to catch up and become a viable PVP player. In fact, I welcome it. Means more pilots for me to pew-pew with.
The only people complaining are those "elite" players who want to continue blapping under-skilled noobs. |
Dave Stark
7865
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 06:31:50 -
[4996] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: Answer this one then.
When are you gonna resign from CCP?
Lol so mad. Also ccp seagull said this feature is imprtant to the future of the future of eve yesterday at eve vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening. Then Eve is finish and you'll be looking for another job within a year after it hits.
salty and delicious. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
467
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 08:03:47 -
[4997] - Quote
If SP will become a commodity you are making access to them unequal. I must pay more to "fly geddon instead of ceptor". Why? It has nothing to do with "more control of my character".
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
128
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 08:20:15 -
[4998] - Quote
Dror wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:So, if it's a problem, what is the issue? Everything that has ever changed by your reasoning, which means all those aspects need eliminated. *Strawman* So you're saying you didn't say "If SP is so fine, there would be no announcement to update it?" It looks like you did, thus critiquing your logic isn't a *strawman* You're strawman'ing the logic to make it more simple to critique. Also, there's a question unanswered about the depth of SP as a problem.
Your fundamental problem is you are viewing the skillpoints as some kind of game crippling design flaw and want them removed, Your not giving anyone an idea to help to speed things up without harming the core mechanic of the game. Some would like X some would Y some Z. Your not offering a solution, your after a new game - your signature says it all.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1673
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 08:21:02 -
[4999] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:If SP will become a commodity you are making access to them unequal. I must pay more to "fly geddon instead of ceptor". Why? It has nothing to do with "more control of my character". Or you could not pay anything and train as normal. Nothing about the training to fly a geddon vs a ceptor is changing and there is no mandate to use the feature to progress. SP will still be generated by players equally as well. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 08:27:38 -
[5000] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:You're strawman'ing the logic to make it more simple to critique.
Also, there's a question unanswered about the depth of SP as a problem. The logic in the response presented was exactly that simple. You made no attempt at justification beyond "If SP is so fine, there would be no announcement to update it." Regarding the depth of SP as a problem, there is none demonstrated. That you would have it changed leaves the burden of proof on you, and in none of the threads you've engaged on have you met that burden. So, is that not accurate?
CCP has come up with the idea of SP trading. As is this thread's whole, it's on the community, now, to evidence that SP without trading is no problem, per se.
Beyond that, I've posted research on how SP reduces loyalty through limiting fair opportunity, character depth, and effectiveness.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Mag's
the united
20624
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 08:37:01 -
[5001] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Also CCP Seagull said this feature is important to the future of eve yesterday at Eve Vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening. So I called it correctly. A PR exercise, but it's still a done deal.
It's actually great news, as now I know what was wrong from the start. Apart from the idea that is.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 08:42:51 -
[5002] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Also CCP Seagull said this feature is important to the future of eve yesterday at Eve Vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening. So I called it correctly. A PR exercise, but it's still a done deal. It's actually great news, as now I know what was wrong from the start. Apart from the idea that is. ..Which is?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Mag's
the united
20624
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 08:46:50 -
[5003] - Quote
Dror wrote:Mag's wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Also CCP Seagull said this feature is important to the future of eve yesterday at Eve Vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening. So I called it correctly. A PR exercise, but it's still a done deal. It's actually great news, as now I know what was wrong from the start. Apart from the idea that is. ..Which is? 8.46 am.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1679
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 08:47:34 -
[5004] - Quote
Dror wrote:So, is that not accurate?
CCP has come up with the idea of SP trading. As is this thread's whole, it's on the community, now, to evidence that SP without trading is no problem, per se.
Beyond that, I've posted research on how SP reduces loyalty through limiting fair opportunity, character depth, and effectiveness. Actually no, you haven't as you've never tested your hypothesis. You've not proven anything, but rather constructed a theory you cannot test. One that the vast majority of others, when presented with the same sources for your reasoning disagree with. You've yet to present credentials, data or experimentation with eve lending weight to your interpretation, thus it's still just an unproven and very unpopular opinion.
Regarding the change itself, it's not self justifying, as your statement implied. It has concrete goals, that I don't fall in opposition to, with concrete reasons and goals.
As far as being an issue, we actually know that to some degree it can be problematic, but to curb that potential, mostly coming from a black market in the void left without legitimate trade, we allow it under restrictions, and to make it accessible and not the playground of elites, as well as to build better character identity investment, we are looking at granulating it.
What that actually says is SP is good as a function of building value in a players character, which is the opposite of the position you hold. Thus CCP's plan doesn't mesh with your idea of removing progression from the game.
Lastly, no, indistinguishable characters do not create character depth, and you've not shown anything proving SP hinders that or anything else you've claimed as nothing you've ever posted actually relates to or studies SP or even remotely relatable systems.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 08:58:09 -
[5005] - Quote
Dror wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:You're strawman'ing the logic to make it more simple to critique.
Also, there's a question unanswered about the depth of SP as a problem. The logic in the response presented was exactly that simple. You made no attempt at justification beyond "If SP is so fine, there would be no announcement to update it." Regarding the depth of SP as a problem, there is none demonstrated. That you would have it changed leaves the burden of proof on you, and in none of the threads you've engaged on have you met that burden. So, is that not accurate? CCP has come up with the idea of SP trading. As is this thread's whole, it's on the community, now, to evidence that SP without trading is no problem, per se. Beyond that, I've posted research on how SP reduces loyalty through limiting fair opportunity, character depth, and effectiveness.
Your research though has been proven flawed at best, social seclusion isnt a mechanic, if you want the solo approach you wont probably leave hi sec, there is no fair or even playing field in a totally pvp orientated playpen, your character can be in a doctrine ship before the end of a trial period and the depth of character is how you invest your time in EvE, from the moment you enter the game there are a multitude of things to do, Your effectiveness is what you make of it do you want to be a miner or some ****house pirate, the universe is your oyster its there for you to fly in.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
467
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 09:04:59 -
[5006] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:If SP will become a commodity you are making access to them unequal. I must pay more to "fly geddon instead of ceptor". Why? It has nothing to do with "more control of my character". Or you could not pay anything and train as normal. Nothing about the training to fly a geddon vs a ceptor is changing and there is no mandate to use the feature to progress. SP will still be generated by players equally as well. Game rules should be equal for everybody. Imagine rookies gets only queens instead of every other and pieces on chess board. Why? Because they are rookies? If I want to change from geddon to ceptor I must pay more (currency is meaningless here) to do this than new player. An option is created with unequal access to it. What next? Players to 1 year will have discount on subs, while I'll be paying twice?
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
460
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 09:12:48 -
[5007] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: Answer this one then.
When are you gonna resign from CCP?
Lol so mad. Also ccp seagull said this feature is imprtant to the future of the future of eve yesterday at eve vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening. Then Eve is finish and you'll be looking for another job within a year after it hits. Have never heard that before... Oh Wait yes we have. Even back in the beta.
AKA the scientist.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Natascha Kerenski
Mechanized Industrial Warfare Void..
74
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 09:14:39 -
[5008] - Quote
I can not say that i like this idea
After reading the first 30 or so pages of this thread i think most of my points already said. As it seems this will come to the game no matter what the people of the community say here, there is just one point:
As a player who is far beyond the 80mil Sp i would like to ask if there will be a way to shift my skills around instead of stripping unwanted skills off and buying new ones?
For example: i am a big fan of Deathstars and Pos gunning i have several Chars (all beyond) 80 mil Sp with Star base Defense managment on level 5, if i dont like the new Citadel mechanics and do not use Structure guns anymore, this feels like a punishment to strip the skillpoints of this unwanted skill off and have to buy 10 times more Sp to get them back.
I feel in such a case this system favors strongly new characters and punish the older ones. If you are unlucky enough to cross this 80mil Sp line after years of playing, reorganizing your skills will be a horror compared to someone with 20 or 40mil Sp.
GÇ£Fighting for peace is like having sex for virginity."
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Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
460
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 09:17:39 -
[5009] - Quote
I still think everyone now thinks SP are 100% from ISK. They are not.
For a character to get 10M sp, at *least* 10M SP from other sub charaters have to be given up. Alliances won't be giving anyone **** with SP, because they will want there higher SP pilots to keep the Points and still fly the better ships.
We is all this magic pixe SP coming from in all your heads? you can't just make them up. And to train 2 time faster at 50M sp you will need 10 farming subs+AURA. It will still be cheaper to just buy that account you want instead.
AKA the scientist.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 09:23:07 -
[5010] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:If SP will become a commodity you are making access to them unequal. I must pay more to "fly geddon instead of ceptor". Why? It has nothing to do with "more control of my character". Or you could not pay anything and train as normal. Nothing about the training to fly a geddon vs a ceptor is changing and there is no mandate to use the feature to progress. SP will still be generated by players equally as well. Game rules should be equal for everybody. Imagine rookies gets only queens instead of every other and pieces on chess board. Why? Because they are rookies? If I want to change from geddon to ceptor I must pay more (currency is meaningless here) to do this than new player. An option is created with unequal access to it. What next? Players to 1 year will have discount on subs, while I'll be paying twice? Thats! That is sound like personal reason which I wanted to heard for a while. Don't worry, we won't hurt.
In this thread we talked A LOT how vet could benefit from new system and you have been here for a while. And yet still you feel jealous about? |
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Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
460
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 09:23:14 -
[5011] - Quote
Natascha Kerenski wrote:I can not say that i like this idea After reading the first 30 or so pages of this thread i think most of my points already said. As it seems this will come to the game no matter what the people of the community say here, there is just one point: As a player who is far beyond the 80mil Sp i would like to ask if there will be a way to shift my skills around instead of stripping unwanted skills off and buying new ones? For example: i am a big fan of Deathstars and Pos gunning i have several Chars (all beyond) 80 mil Sp with Star base Defense managment on level 5, if i dont like the new Citadel mechanics and do not use Structure guns anymore, this feels like a punishment to strip the skillpoints of this unwanted skill off and have to buy 10 times more Sp to get them back. I feel in such a case this system favors strongly new characters and punish the older ones. If you are unlucky enough to cross this 80mil Sp line after years of playing, reorganizing your skills will be a horror compared to someone with 20 or 40mil Sp. They have said more than once in more than one place that proper transitions will be done when POS are phased out. They are still relevant and will be around for the better part of a year at least.
And CCP have always just done a 100% pure skill point reimbursement once skills become obsolete. For someone who has +50M skill points, you should already know that.
AKA the scientist.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 09:27:16 -
[5012] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Dror wrote:Mag's wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Also CCP Seagull said this feature is important to the future of eve yesterday at Eve Vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening. So I called it correctly. A PR exercise, but it's still a done deal. It's actually great news, as now I know what was wrong from the start. Apart from the idea that is. ..Which is? 8.46 am. .."Was a problem from the start"?
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Actually no, you haven't as you've never tested your hypothesis. You've not proven anything, but rather constructed a theory you cannot test. One that the vast majority of others, when presented with the same sources for your reasoning disagree with. You've yet to present credentials, data or experimentation with eve lending weight to your interpretation, thus it's still just an unproven and very unpopular opinion.
Regarding the change itself, it's not self justifying, as your statement implied. It has concrete goals, that I don't fall in opposition to, with concrete reasons and goals.
As far as being an issue, we actually know that to some degree it can be problematic, but to curb that potential, mostly coming from a black market in the void left without legitimate trade, we allow it under restrictions, and to make it accessible and not the playground of elites, as well as to build better character identity investment, we are looking at granulating it.
What that actually says is SP is good as a function of building value in a players character, which is the opposite of the position you hold. Thus CCP's plan doesn't mesh with your idea of removing progression from the game.
Lastly, no, indistinguishable characters do not create character depth, and you've not shown anything proving SP hinders that or anything else you've claimed as nothing you've ever posted actually relates to or studies SP or even remotely relatable systems.
Following the order of those replies, you're asking for evidence and testing and proof that "if there was no problem with SP, there would be no update announcement"? That's a pretty shallow response.
"Hey, it seems like there's a problem with SP. Why else would CCP switch it up so drastically?"
"Prove it."
Like, it's not about proving it.. but about figuring out what the problems are (as is well-requested in this thread). That level of shallow response provides nothing for the conversation. Again, it has nothing to do with what I can prove at that point, but what we can evidence as a community.
You say that a large part of the problem that SP trading fixes is black market sales. There would be no black market without SP. It's fixing a problem it's developing, just like it does as a reward system for its own limitations. That it "improves character identity investment" directly negates the definition of game identity -- which comes from opportunity and gameplay.. 99% of characters are esteemed for nothing about SP, but them as characters and as effective for their niche. From the study, "Social identity is defined as the knowledge of belonging to a social group, as well as the emotional and value significance of his or her group membership." Value is very correlative with SP, and lower value is lower social identity.
Protip: lower social identity (value) "is lower loyalty (subscription potential)."
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
467
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 09:44:43 -
[5013] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:In this thread we talked A LOT how vet could benefit from new system and you have been here for a while. And yet still you feel jealous about? Righhht, because character that has >50 mil SP must pay more to switch doctrines than <50 mil SP, benefit...It's nothing about jealous, you don't understand a single word again. SPs will be commodity like for example PLEX. Everybody can buy it (PLEX) and it will have same effect on every user despite the in game age. It won't be the same with SPs.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Natascha Kerenski
Mechanized Industrial Warfare Void..
74
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 09:49:41 -
[5014] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
They have said more than once in more than one place that proper transitions will be done when POS are phased out. They are still relevant and will be around for the better part of a year at least.
And CCP have always just done a 100% pure skill point reimbursement once skills become obsolete. For someone who has +50M skill points, you should already know that.
It seems you totally missing my point. First the new Structures will have guns and its not sure yet that there will be a different skill needed to use them. But that served just as an example.
I am not totally against Sp Trading....It is there now in form of buying characters and what i like about the Idea is that skill points will be Terminated in the process (after clone upgrades are obsolete only way now is losing a T3 cruiser)
My point is since not all people will be treated equal with this system will there be a way of shifting Sp instead of selling them.
GÇ£Fighting for peace is like having sex for virginity."
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 09:59:27 -
[5015] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:General Lootit wrote:In this thread we talked A LOT how vet could benefit from new system and you have been here for a while. And yet still you feel jealous about? Righhht, because character that has >50 mil SP must pay more to switch doctrines than <50 mil SP, benefit ... SPs will be commodity. Are you ranting that being high SP is tough thing? OK. I repeat once again Could I have your SP? And then maybe I grow up... I can't promise. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1681
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 10:14:16 -
[5016] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:If SP will become a commodity you are making access to them unequal. I must pay more to "fly geddon instead of ceptor". Why? It has nothing to do with "more control of my character". Or you could not pay anything and train as normal. Nothing about the training to fly a geddon vs a ceptor is changing and there is no mandate to use the feature to progress. SP will still be generated by players equally as well. Game rules should be equal for everybody. Imagine rookies gets only queens instead of every other and pieces on chess board. Why? Because they are rookies? If I want to change from geddon to ceptor I must pay more (currency is meaningless here) to do this than new player. An option is created with unequal access to it. What next? Players to 1 year will have discount on subs, while I'll be paying twice? Rules are equal for everyone, nothing is changing in that regard. Nothing in this proposal asks you to pay anything. If you want a ceptor train for it. If a new player wants a ceptor, they train for it. Plain and simple. No option is being added that you won't be able to use, though to less effect because you already have a large number more abilities than that player. When they reach you're level they will be under the same diminishing returns.
That assumes they even have the resources to take advantage of this extensively. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1682
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 10:28:45 -
[5017] - Quote
Dror wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Actually no, you haven't as you've never tested your hypothesis. You've not proven anything, but rather constructed a theory you cannot test. One that the vast majority of others, when presented with the same sources for your reasoning disagree with. You've yet to present credentials, data or experimentation with eve lending weight to your interpretation, thus it's still just an unproven and very unpopular opinion.
Regarding the change itself, it's not self justifying, as your statement implied. It has concrete goals, that I don't fall in opposition to, with concrete reasons and goals.
As far as being an issue, we actually know that to some degree it can be problematic, but to curb that potential, mostly coming from a black market in the void left without legitimate trade, we allow it under restrictions, and to make it accessible and not the playground of elites, as well as to build better character identity investment, we are looking at granulating it.
What that actually says is SP is good as a function of building value in a players character, which is the opposite of the position you hold. Thus CCP's plan doesn't mesh with your idea of removing progression from the game.
Lastly, no, indistinguishable characters do not create character depth, and you've not shown anything proving SP hinders that or anything else you've claimed as nothing you've ever posted actually relates to or studies SP or even remotely relatable systems.
Following the order of those replies, you're asking for evidence and testing and proof that "if there was no problem with SP, there would be no update announcement"? That's a pretty shallow response. "Hey, it seems like there's a problem with SP. Why else would CCP switch it up so drastically?" "Prove it." Like, it's not about proving it.. but about figuring out what the problems are (as is well-requested in this thread). That level of shallow response provides nothing for the conversation. Again, it has nothing to do with what I can prove at that point, but what we can evidence as a community. You say that a large part of the problem that SP trading fixes is black market sales. There would be no black market without SP. It's fixing a problem it's developing, just like it does as a reward system for its own limitations. That it "improves character identity investment" directly negates the definition of game identity -- which comes from opportunity and gameplay.. 99% of characters are esteemed for nothing about SP, but them as characters and as effective for their niche. From the study, " Social identity is defined as the knowledge of belonging to a social group, as well as the emotional and value significance of his or her group membership." Value is very correlative with SP, and lower value is lower social identity. Protip: lower social identity (value) "is lower loyalty (subscription potential)." CCP isn't changing SP up drastically. People train over time to produce SP and unlock skills currently, soon people will train SP to unlock skills or trade for other to do the same. We still have a finite amount of skills being unlocked by training over time. That isn't changed by this proposal. That isn't the goal of this proposal, thus even by the flawed metric of "if it's being changed it's broken" this doesn't qualify as proof of SP being in any way bad because it's not changing how SP works or is generated.
So yes, since there is no proof of SP being an issue you still need to provide that proof.
And yes, SP, like any limited in game commodity fuels black markets. Isk has a black market. That doesn't mean we should do away with currency in the game. So the existence of a black market isn't proof that an aspect is bad. Rather it proves it's desired and actually worth investing in at the character level.
And your idea of SP being a social value is still fundamentally flawed and wrong to the point that it invalidates every conclusion you draw from it. Fact of the matter is that being new actually creates social value. Opportunity was also discussed with you in another thread, but you dismissed concrete examples of opportunity for no other reason than them not supporting your narrative.
Also no, flat, indistinguishable and uninvestable characters still don't create strong identities or value. It removes potential for character investment rather than creating it. |
Natascha Kerenski
Mechanized Industrial Warfare Void..
77
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 10:29:06 -
[5018] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:If SP will become a commodity you are making access to them unequal. I must pay more to "fly geddon instead of ceptor". Why? It has nothing to do with "more control of my character". Or you could not pay anything and train as normal. Nothing about the training to fly a geddon vs a ceptor is changing and there is no mandate to use the feature to progress. SP will still be generated by players equally as well. Game rules should be equal for everybody. Imagine rookies gets only queens instead of every other and pieces on chess board. Why? Because they are rookies? If I want to change from geddon to ceptor I must pay more (currency is meaningless here) to do this than new player. An option is created with unequal access to it. What next? Players to 1 year will have discount on subs, while I'll be paying twice? Rules are equal for everyone, nothing is changing in that regard. Nothing in this proposal asks you to pay anything. If you want a ceptor train for it. If a new player wants a ceptor, they train for it. Plain and simple. No option is being added that you won't be able to use, though to less effect because you already have a large number more abilities than that player. When they reach you're level they will be under the same diminishing returns. That assumes they even have the resources to take advantage of this extensively.
Since the system is not bound to ISK only the argument older players have more isk is out of the window It makes no difference if you are an old player rich in game but broke in real life or if you a new player poor in game and rich in real life.
Why should people who played the game for years be punished for being patient and making their progress over time. Just do the same diminishing rate for everyone!
This is mostly created because there are a lot of players today with the attitude: I want everything NOOOOOOW!!! And if i dont get it ill rage quit imediatly and kick that stupid game from my hard drive
GÇ£Fighting for peace is like having sex for virginity."
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 10:38:14 -
[5019] - Quote
Dror wrote:You say that a large part of the problem that SP trading fixes is black market sales. There would be no black market without SP. Your either very naive, or as point out before on a personal crusade, i can show you 12 sites atleast where you can buy characters / accounts / ingame items for plenty of games non have skillpoints - the bazaar was deemed by CCP the lesser of the 2 evils in controlling their property.
Dror wrote:99% of characters are esteemed for nothing about SP, but them as characters and as effective for their niche Where do you think the ability for them to fly the Logistics ships the marauders or just plain old t1 cruisers come from, oh skillpoints. There value comes from the roles they adopt, the same guy who pilots the destroyer just out salvaging with his buddies one day will soon be in the svipul engaging, theres always someone who wants to sweep up as well as combat
Dror wrote:Social identity is defined as the knowledge of belonging to a social group, as well as the emotional and value significance of his or her group membership." Value is very correlative with SP, and lower value is lower social identity This just smacks of Dror trying to decry his own personal experiences in game but .... Corps set out rules and they dont ever ask for a pilot to be X and X only, If its all out war theres a job for everyone, if its specific ops, what time you invested in game will dictacte where you can assist best. Just because you can only fly ABC and not XYZ doesnt effect of how you will be perceived everyone started at the beginning and knows what its like. I dont think ive even ever conceived the idea that just because someone has 1 million skillpoints he/she is no good. If thats the case why would places like EvE Uni be here.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1683
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 10:39:09 -
[5020] - Quote
Natascha Kerenski wrote:Since the system is not bound to ISK only the argument older players have more isk is out of the window It makes no difference if you are an old player rich in game but broke in real life or if you a new player poor in game and rich in real life.
Why should people who played the game for years be punished for being patient and making their progress over time. Just do the same diminishing rate for everyone!
This is mostly created because there are a lot of players today with the attitude: I want everything NOOOOOOW!!! And if i dont get it ill rage quit imediatly and kick that stupid game from my hard drive The rate of return is the same for everyone. I have an empty character slot I can get 500k SP per pack on despite playing in total over 6 years. A new player can buy an older character with 100m SP and get 50k SP per pack same as I would get on this character.
The diminishing returns are at the character level, not the player level. Thus the choice to have over "x" SP carries with it the decision to only get "x" SP per packet. The solution for getting a better return is easy, start a new character and the vet gets the same return as the new player on top of having a well trained character as backup.
There isn't anything here vets can't take advantage of in the same way new players can, we just have actually to do it the same way. |
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 10:48:39 -
[5021] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Your either very naive, or as point out before on a personal crusade, i can show you 12 sites atleast where you can buy characters / accounts / ingame items for plenty of games non have skillpoints - the bazaar was deemed by CCP the lesser of the 2 evils in controlling their property.
Where do you think the ability for them to fly the Logistics ships the marauders or just plain old t1 cruisers come from, oh skillpoints. There value comes from the roles they adopt, the same guy who pilots the destroyer just out salvaging with his buddies one day will soon be in the svipul engaging, theres always someone who wants to sweep up as well as combat
This just smacks of Dror trying to decry his own personal experiences in game but .... Corps set out rules and they dont ever ask for a pilot to be X and X only, If its all out war theres a job for everyone, if its specific ops, what time you invested in game will dictacte where you can assist best. Just because you can only fly ABC and not XYZ doesnt effect of how you will be perceived everyone started at the beginning and knows what its like. I dont think ive even ever conceived the idea that just because someone has 1 million skillpoints he/she is no good. If thats the case why would places like EvE Uni be here. There's no evidence on the plausibility of a black market, without leveling, by showing games with leveling.
So, you're saying the character's value is reduced by the roles he can't adopt?
Nothing's saying that corps require roles. It's about feeling valuable, not feeling categorized.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:Following the order of those replies, you're asking for evidence and testing and proof that "if there was no problem with SP, there would be no update announcement"? That's a pretty shallow response.
"Hey, it seems like there's a problem with SP. Why else would CCP switch it up so drastically?"
"Prove it."
Like, it's not about proving it.. but about figuring out what the problems are (as is well-requested in this thread). That level of shallow response provides nothing for the conversation. Again, it has nothing to do with what I can prove at that point, but what we can evidence as a community.
You say that a large part of the problem that SP trading fixes is black market sales. There would be no black market without SP. It's fixing a problem it's developing, just like it does as a reward system for its own limitations. That it "improves character identity investment" directly negates the definition of game identity -- which comes from opportunity and gameplay.. 99% of characters are esteemed for nothing about SP, but them as characters and as effective for their niche. From the study, "Social identity is defined as the knowledge of belonging to a social group, as well as the emotional and value significance of his or her group membership." Value is very correlative with SP, and lower value is lower social identity.
Protip: lower social identity (value) "is lower loyalty (subscription potential)." CCP isn't changing SP up drastically. People train over time to produce SP and unlock skills currently, soon people will train SP to unlock skills or trade for other to do the same. We still have a finite amount of skills being unlocked by training over time. That isn't changed by this proposal. That isn't the goal of this proposal, thus even by the flawed metric of "if it's being changed it's broken" this doesn't qualify as proof of SP being in any way bad because it's not changing how SP works or is generated. So yes, since there is no proof of SP being an issue you still need to provide that proof. And yes, SP, like any limited in game commodity fuels black markets. Isk has a black market. That doesn't mean we should do away with currency in the game. So the existence of a black market isn't proof that an aspect is bad. Rather it proves it's desired and actually worth investing in at the character level. You're not actually addressing if SP is a problem, nor if it is being updated because of that.
It causes a black market. That is supposedly an issue. You're also inaccurately ascribing value to characters and not gameplay. The point is just more evidence that subs aren't getting what they come for, whether it's a top tier character or a top tier experience.
Quote:And your idea of SP being a social value is still fundamentally flawed and wrong to the point that it invalidates every conclusion you draw from it. Fact of the matter is that being new actually creates social value. Opportunity was also discussed with you in another thread, but you dismissed concrete examples of opportunity for no other reason than them not supporting your narrative.
Also no, flat, indistinguishable and uninvestable characters still don't create strong identities or value. It removes potential for character investment rather than creating it. You're saying the study's idea is fundamentally flawed. That's on you. How is it not obvious that character value is directly correlative with what that character can do?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
470
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 10:55:22 -
[5022] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:There isn't anything here vets can't take advantage of in the same way new players can, we just have actually to do it the same way. What the hell you taking about? If I want to reallocate my minining skills (my own SPs), I must use Transneural Skill Packet (500k SP, several of them). When I will be using my own Transneural Skill Packet I will gain less SP than new character.
Quote:WeGÇÖve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character. What prestige? The more I read devblog the more bull**** it is. My commitment to single character is actually made it worse. I should train 3 average characters than single with more SPs.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1683
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 11:05:50 -
[5023] - Quote
Dror wrote:You're not actually addressing if SP is a problem, nor if it is being updated because of that.
It causes a black market. That is supposedly an issue. You're also inaccurately ascribing value to characters and not gameplay. The point is just more evidence that subs aren't getting what they come for, whether it's a top tier character or a top tier experience. I did address that actually, I specifically addressed why this was being expanded.
The relevant portion for this change is, "to make it accessible and not the playground of elites, as well as to build better character identity investment, we are looking at granulating it."
It's not the presence of a black market, that's what justified the Bazaar initially, but we've moved beyond that. There is no black market for granulated SP (no means to trade it exists, thus no market can even be formed) so granulating SP can't be justified by that reasoning.
Dror wrote:You're saying the study's idea is fundamentally flawed. That's on you. How is it not obvious that character value is directly correlative with what that character can do? No, I'm saying the study: a) wasn't actually presented itself, but your interpretations, shielding yourself from anyone determining applicability or critique b) even with your interpretations you gave doesn't actually support your assertions; you're still making the assumption that SP is a social determinator while not providing evidence this "study" actually says that. Rather you're taking your own bias about the value of a character being determined by SP and creating these equivalencies purely from that rather than the study.
The rest of us don't see low SP players as effectively crippled and thus don't conflate that as being socially undesirable. You haven't presented any study with counter reasoning. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 11:09:25 -
[5024] - Quote
Natascha Kerenski wrote: Why should people who played the game for years be punished for being patient and making their progress over time. Just do the same diminishing rate for everyone!
Dev blog Why have diminishing returns at all? We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. How it's punishing you? Blowing noobs on shiny ships should be funny and profitable at the same time. expirence>skill points
Natascha Kerenski wrote: This is mostly created because there are a lot of players today with the attitude: I want everything NOOOOOOW!!! And if i dont get it ill rage quit imediatly and kick that stupid game from my hard drive
Yeeeeaaaaah! We are noobs loving do things like that.
Vahligmarr wrote:I just cancelled my account. You can leave a message why you quit in the process. I did.
Jeremiah Saken wrote: I don't know if I want to be part of it when that happens.
Daniela Doran wrote: I'm losing all interest to log in anymore thanks to you. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1683
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 11:10:13 -
[5025] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:There isn't anything here vets can't take advantage of in the same way new players can, we just have actually to do it the same way. What the hell you taking about? If I want to reallocate my minining skills (my own SPs), I must use Transneural Skill Packet (500k SP, several of them). When I will be using my own Transneural Skill Packet I will gain less SP than new character. Yes, because you aren't using a character at the same level of a new character. If you did you'd get the exact same thing. That you refuse isn't something that needs accommodated.
So make a new character, the same way a new player has to, and you too will get the full 500k SP while still enjoying the perks of having tens of millions of SP at your disposal for being a long time customer on your current character.
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
470
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 11:12:23 -
[5026] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:So make a new character, the same way a new player has to, and you too will get the full 500k SP while still enjoying the perks of having tens of millions of SP at your disposal for being a long time customer on your current character. Again
Quote:WeGÇÖve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character. won't make any sense.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1683
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 11:18:54 -
[5027] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:So make a new character, the same way a new player has to, and you too will get the full 500k SP while still enjoying the perks of having tens of millions of SP at your disposal for being a long time customer on your current character. Again Quote:WeGÇÖve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character. won't make any sense. It makes perfect sense. (Hint: allowing you to efficiently overtake significantly longer trained characters doesn't leave them with much prestige for their tenure, does it). |
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 11:23:53 -
[5028] - Quote
I would like to bring this perspective into the discussion(Don't know if it has already been covered the thread is pretty long by now):
As you still have to be subscribed(be it monthly subscription or PLEX), you are still training as long as you are subscribed. For me personally(29 mill sp on my main) it would mean that I would still train everything to lvl 4 normally(which is only a couple of days anyways) to not waste those SP you get anyway, and occationally snipe off a lvl 5 skill. Command ship lvl 5 or BC lvl5 for example. I do not get a better pilot just because I wait approx. a month for it. Right now I am just waiting for these skills to be done, so I can join my alliances absolution doctrine for example. The waiting is also fine for me, but it is not especially sexy gameplay IMO. Me being able to sit in the ship a month earlier by buying someones elses SP at a reduced rate does not change a lot in the game.
My point: I don't necessarily think this will be used for every skill at every level to insta train a char to 80 mill sp. I think people would rather use it as a supplement to cut of the occational 24 days skill. I don't think this willl change the game balance or affect it largely as a lot of SP does not equal skill or chance to win, but just the ability to use a certain ship. So it is in fact not P2win(which is used wrongly in this thread IMO.) but P2convenience(As everyone can get the same advantage it if they wait long enough), which is a big difference IMO. and makes this proposition okay.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 11:33:59 -
[5029] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Your either very naive, or as point out before on a personal crusade, i can show you 12 sites atleast where you can buy characters / accounts / ingame items for plenty of games non have skillpoints - the bazaar was deemed by CCP the lesser of the 2 evils in controlling their property.
Where do you think the ability for them to fly the Logistics ships the marauders or just plain old t1 cruisers come from, oh skillpoints. There value comes from the roles they adopt, the same guy who pilots the destroyer just out salvaging with his buddies one day will soon be in the svipul engaging, theres always someone who wants to sweep up as well as combat
This just smacks of Dror trying to decry his own personal experiences in game but .... Corps set out rules and they dont ever ask for a pilot to be X and X only, If its all out war theres a job for everyone, if its specific ops, what time you invested in game will dictacte where you can assist best. Just because you can only fly ABC and not XYZ doesnt effect of how you will be perceived everyone started at the beginning and knows what its like. I dont think ive even ever conceived the idea that just because someone has 1 million skillpoints he/she is no good. If thats the case why would places like EvE Uni be here. 1.There's no evidence on the plausibility of a black market, without leveling, by showing games with leveling.
2.So, you're saying the character's value is reduced by the roles he can't adopt?
3.Nothing's saying that corps require roles. It's about feeling valuable, not feeling categorized. 1/I don't even know how to respond to this, i cannot post links to these kind of sites just use google it may open your eyes to whats available from black markets. Here you will find your evidence. 2/No you are by saying skillpoints hold you back,Any other game you play the only time you are progressing is when your actually logged on,EvE on the other hand if your on for 10 minutes or 10 hours or dont log on for a week your are still progressing. 3/So a corp like EvE Uni thats dedicated 11 years of helping people to progress in game, give pilots of sense of purpose achieve limitless potential is not creating a feeling of value and satisfaction. Your delusional !
Your Study does not include EvE or an enviroment close to EvE - To add to your feeling warm and cuddly to your theories you talk values, the studies games dont allow the sale of characters - EvE's does / Your study was performed on the most part PVE enviroment as proved by that fact this fair and even playing - a strong guild membership is essential for survival, and it is nearly impossible to win without a guild. The study itself acknowledges that it was done in a very limited enviroment and would hold no validity in arguements !!!
3 days you have done this and 3 days you were debunked each morning returning to skew your flawed study material in a different light to suit YOUR perceptions of what EvE should be.
For the most part i would advise anyone not to post to this as its just adding to a trolls personal crusade against skillpoints.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
470
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 11:48:04 -
[5030] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:It makes perfect sense. (Hint: allowing you to efficiently overtake significantly longer trained characters doesn't leave them with much prestige for their tenure, does it). What a twisted logic. It will be more efficient to strip 100 mil char into 3. Reallocating skllls on high level chars will be inefficent. What will be best to do to is strip them and make specialise alts. Where's the presitge of that?
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
751
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 11:50:03 -
[5031] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:CCP has an amazing track record for getting it wrong. you are aware you're talking about a company that created a game that has survived for over 12 years (i think we're at 12 years now aren't we?), that doesn't happen by accident. You are so out of touch it really is scary.
You can't seriously believe half of what you type here and expect others to swallow it.
Online statistics show. CCP is doing a wonderful job, they don't make mistakes that end up with players giving up and leaving. They have never made a mistake that caused a riot in the main trade hub of the game.
Subscriptions levels are at an all time high - There is so much content no-one has to spend hours or even days flying around completely empty systems (that were 12 months ago active places to get fights).
New Icons developed for a technology a minority use - That still look like crap on a 1080P monitor. Cruisers and battle cruisers, frigates and destroyers - Yes they have different icons - The dev blog says so - Though you would be hard pushed to tell them apart in game, without a magnifying glass. New map that is so overwhelmingly colourful it is all but unusable (pretty is not functional) - Scanning with it is a nightmare, unless of course you turn off all effects - Thankfully the map dev team is smart enough to realize their mistake and didn't remove a map that just works. One does have to wonder why the Beta map is still there, when it should have been removed until game ready (if ever).
Rapid missile launchers - You really want to go there? I'm happy to, just let me know.
Put your head back up where ever it came from ( I can only guess reading some of the drivel you've posted) and stop talking shite. Over my 8 years playing Eve, I have seen the good the bad and recently, quite ugly side of what passes for game development at CCP.
Lie to yourself and the uninformed all you like, just don't try to lie to those who actually play the game.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 11:51:47 -
[5032] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:1/I don't even know how to respond to this, i cannot post links to these kind of sites just use google it may open your eyes to whats available from black markets. Here you will find your evidence. 2/No you are by saying skillpoints hold you back,Any other game you play the only time you are progressing is when your actually logged on,EvE on the other hand if your on for 10 minutes or 10 hours or dont log on for a week your are still progressing. 3/So a corp like EvE Uni thats dedicated 11 years of helping people to progress in game, give pilots of sense of purpose achieve limitless potential is not creating a feeling of value and satisfaction. Your delusional !
Your Study does not include EvE or an enviroment close to EvE - To add to your feeling warm and cuddly to your theories you talk values, the studies games dont allow the sale of characters - EvE's does / Your study was performed on the most part PVE enviroment as proved by that fact this fair and even playing - a strong guild membership is essential for survival, and it is nearly impossible to win without a guild. The study itself acknowledges that it was done in a very limited enviroment and would hold no validity in arguements !!!
3 days you have done this and 3 days you were debunked each morning returning to skew your flawed study material in a different light to suit YOUR perceptions of what EvE should be.
For the most part i would advise anyone not to post to this as its just adding to a trolls personal crusade against skillpoints. It's irrelevant if other games have a black market for characters. The point is that SP/leveling causes it.
You're also stating things you have no evidence for, including that the study is PvE-oriented.. while also trying to refute the validity of opportunity as a design philosophy without actually doing so. A fair chance on the field is so whether it's PvE or PvP, and character value is so whether or not that character's interest is marketing, PvP, PvE, production, etc.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:You're not actually addressing if SP is a problem, nor if it is being updated because of that.
It causes a black market. That is supposedly an issue. You're also inaccurately ascribing value to characters and not gameplay. The point is just more evidence that subs aren't getting what they come for, whether it's a top tier character or a top tier experience. I did address that actually, I specifically addressed why this was being expanded. The relevant portion for this change is, "to make it accessible and not the playground of elites, as well as to build better character identity investment, we are looking at granulating it." It's not the presence of a black market, that's what justified the Bazaar initially, but we've moved beyond that. There is no black market for granulated SP (no means to trade it exists, thus no market can even be formed) so granulating SP can't be justified by that reasoning. Dror wrote:You're saying the study's idea is fundamentally flawed. That's on you. How is it not obvious that character value is directly correlative with what that character can do? No, I'm saying the study: a) wasn't actually presented itself, but your interpretations, shielding yourself from anyone determining applicability or critique b) even with your interpretations you gave doesn't actually support your assertions; you're still making the assumption that SP is a social determinator while not providing evidence this "study" actually says that. Rather you're taking your own bias about the value of a character being determined by SP and creating these equivalencies purely from that rather than the study. The rest of us don't see low SP players as effectively crippled and thus don't conflate that as being socially undesirable. You haven't presented any study with counter reasoning. Nothing says that SP trading produces a black market, obviously, but SP does.
The study is quoted exactly.
Quote:Developers should consider a skill-point character development system over a class-based system to balance play and to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win.
Social identity is defined as the individualGÇÖs knowledge that he or she belongs to a particular social group, as well as the emotional and value significance of his or her group membership.
Bagozzi and Dholakia [6] applied social identity theory to virtual spaces, and Dholakia et el.[21] further extended this research. In both studies, Internet users who had a stronger social identity tended to feel a greater desire to communicate with friends in virtual chat rooms. What are you not getting about fair gameplay and opportunity being key?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
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Posted - 2015.10.26 11:54:41 -
[5033] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Icons ..without a magnifying glass. They could just be letters..
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 12:18:18 -
[5034] - Quote
Dror wrote:Bagozzi and Dholakia [6] applied social identity theory to virtual spaces, and Dholakia et el.[21] further extended this research. In both studies, Internet users who had a stronger social identity tended to feel a greater desire to communicate with friends in virtual chat rooms. This is why i say you pick things to suit your theories because i noticed you left out what follows that section troll
Other studies found that the group identification could occur in the absence of formal membership [67]. For example,electronic vendors, such as Amazon.com, Google, and eBay, which have each created a distinct consumer profile, attract committed, repeat customers with whom they build GÇ£deep, meaningful, long-term relationshipsGÇ¥ [8, p. 76], and these customers are both loyal and enthusiastic in promoting the use of these e-vendorGÇÖs Web sites [51]. Srinivasan et al. [78] found that e-loyalty is generated by community, contact interactivity, care, and character. The Web site image can also influence a companyGÇÖs identity; research in marketing has found that Web site image affects both brand image [63] and consumer behavior [14].
I do declare, now you going to add theyre in the free2 play section !!!
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 12:25:10 -
[5035] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Bagozzi and Dholakia [6] applied social identity theory to virtual spaces, and Dholakia et el.[21] further extended this research. In both studies, Internet users who had a stronger social identity tended to feel a greater desire to communicate with friends in virtual chat rooms. This is why i say you pick things to suit your theories because i noticed you left out what follows that section troll Other studies found that the group identification could occur in the absence of formal membership [67]. For example,electronic vendors, such as Amazon.com, Google, and eBay, which have each created a distinct consumer profile, attract committed, repeat customers with whom they build GÇ£deep, meaningful, long-term relationshipsGÇ¥ [8, p. 76], and these customers are both loyal and enthusiastic in promoting the use of these e-vendorGÇÖs Web sites [51]. Srinivasan et al. [78] found that e-loyalty is generated by community, contact interactivity, care, and character. The Web site image can also influence a companyGÇÖs identity; research in marketing has found that Web site image affects both brand image [63] and consumer behavior [14]. I do declare, now you going to add theyre in the free2 play section !!! The point is non-obvious. Retention being low sorta undermines any claims of a "deep, meaningful, long-term relationship" being set up from SP. That's even discussing nothing about its negative effects on competitiveness and character value.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Malou Hashur
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
81
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 12:34:43 -
[5036] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:CCP has an amazing track record for getting it wrong. you are aware you're talking about a company that created a game that has survived for over 12 years (i think we're at 12 years now aren't we?), that doesn't happen by accident. You are so out of touch it really is scary. You can't seriously believe half of what you type here and expect others to swallow it. Online statistics show. CCP is doing a wonderful job, they don't make mistakes that end up with players giving up and leaving. They have never made a mistake that caused a riot in the main trade hub of the game. Subscriptions levels are at an all time high - There is so much content no-one has to spend hours or even days flying around completely empty systems (that were 12 months ago active places to get fights). New Icons developed for a technology a minority use - That still look like crap on a 1080P monitor. Cruisers and battle cruisers, frigates and destroyers - Yes they have different icons - The dev blog says so - Though you would be hard pushed to tell them apart in game, without a magnifying glass. New map that is so overwhelmingly colourful it is all but unusable (pretty is not functional) - Scanning with it is a nightmare, unless of course you turn off all effects - Thankfully the map dev team is smart enough to realize their mistake and didn't remove a map that just works. One does have to wonder why the Beta map is still there, when it should have been removed until game ready (if ever). Rapid missile launchers - You really want to go there? I'm happy to, just let me know. Put your head back up where ever it came from ( I can only guess reading some of the drivel you've posted) and stop talking shite. Over my 8 years playing Eve, I have seen the good the bad and recently, quite ugly side of what passes for game development at CCP. Lie to yourself and the uninformed all you like, just don't try to lie to those who actually play the game.
I agree completely
CCP Philosophy ==>>
If it works, break it. If itGÇÖs broken, leave it and break something else.
Ignore all Forum comments that raise issues and concerns about our "features", and bring said "features" in anyway.
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Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
752
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 12:46:32 -
[5037] - Quote
Dror wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:Icons ..without a magnifying glass. They could just be letters.. That would be fine, as long as they were clearly distinguishable . (cheap to produce too, which seems to have been the goal)
What we have is only marred by the most commonly seen icons looking the same. Change the two __ icons to anything else to distinguish them as different classes. An individual icon is not made with a lazy underline - It is lazy cheap workmanship.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
90
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 13:09:50 -
[5038] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:It makes perfect sense. (Hint: allowing you to efficiently overtake significantly longer trained characters doesn't leave them with much prestige for their tenure, does it). What a twisted logic. It will be more efficient to strip 100 mil char into 3. Reallocating skllls on high level chars will be inefficent. What will be best to do to is strip them and make specialise alts. Where's the presitge of that? If "prestige" has meaning how many time you invested in your character then I see the only way - count months of subscription. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 13:20:19 -
[5039] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Bagozzi and Dholakia [6] applied social identity theory to virtual spaces, and Dholakia et el.[21] further extended this research. In both studies, Internet users who had a stronger social identity tended to feel a greater desire to communicate with friends in virtual chat rooms. This is why i say you pick things to suit your theories because i noticed you left out what follows that section troll Other studies found that the group identification could occur in the absence of formal membership [67]. For example,electronic vendors, such as Amazon.com, Google, and eBay, which have each created a distinct consumer profile, attract committed, repeat customers with whom they build GÇ£deep, meaningful, long-term relationshipsGÇ¥ [8, p. 76], and these customers are both loyal and enthusiastic in promoting the use of these e-vendorGÇÖs Web sites [51]. Srinivasan et al. [78] found that e-loyalty is generated by community, contact interactivity, care, and character. The Web site image can also influence a companyGÇÖs identity; research in marketing has found that Web site image affects both brand image [63] and consumer behavior [14]. I do declare, now you going to add theyre in the free2 play section !!! The point is non-obvious. Retention being low sorta undermines any claims of a "deep, meaningful, long-term relationship" being set up from SP. That's even discussing nothing about its negative effects on competitiveness and character value.
What other game have you played that incorporates a primary PVP enviroment with secondary effect PVE activity or pure PVP, Give me an example of your vast gaming experience where an MMO you have encourtered you are as effective at 0 day to a 5 year old player to see if your basing it on anything concrete.You know where you can drive everything shoot everything fly everything at its max tier and its a level playing field as soon as you hit PLAY button.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 13:38:24 -
[5040] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Bagozzi and Dholakia [6] applied social identity theory to virtual spaces, and Dholakia et el.[21] further extended this research. In both studies, Internet users who had a stronger social identity tended to feel a greater desire to communicate with friends in virtual chat rooms. This is why i say you pick things to suit your theories because i noticed you left out what follows that section troll Other studies found that the group identification could occur in the absence of formal membership [67]. For example,electronic vendors, such as Amazon.com, Google, and eBay, which have each created a distinct consumer profile, attract committed, repeat customers with whom they build GÇ£deep, meaningful, long-term relationshipsGÇ¥ [8, p. 76], and these customers are both loyal and enthusiastic in promoting the use of these e-vendorGÇÖs Web sites [51]. Srinivasan et al. [78] found that e-loyalty is generated by community, contact interactivity, care, and character. The Web site image can also influence a companyGÇÖs identity; research in marketing has found that Web site image affects both brand image [63] and consumer behavior [14]. I do declare, now you going to add theyre in the free2 play section !!! The point is non-obvious. Retention being low sorta undermines any claims of a "deep, meaningful, long-term relationship" being set up from SP. That's even discussing nothing about its negative effects on competitiveness and character value. What other game have you played that incorporates a primary PVP enviroment with secondary effect PVE activity or pure PVP, Give me an example of your vast gaming experience where an MMO you have encourtered you are as effective at 0 day to a 5 year old player to see if your basing it on anything concrete.You know where you can drive everything shoot everything fly everything at its max tier and its a level playing field as soon as you hit PLAY button. There is no primary environment in most MMOs with PvP servers (which most of them). Again, there seems no point in this section of the discussion.
"Show me other games" is a really shallow response, btw. Almost every competitive game is played at max efficiency, from MOBAs, through sports games, competitive FPS (no unlocks through LAN), and RTS. There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
135
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 13:55:23 -
[5041] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Bagozzi and Dholakia [6] applied social identity theory to virtual spaces, and Dholakia et el.[21] further extended this research. In both studies, Internet users who had a stronger social identity tended to feel a greater desire to communicate with friends in virtual chat rooms. This is why i say you pick things to suit your theories because i noticed you left out what follows that section troll Other studies found that the group identification could occur in the absence of formal membership [67]. For example,electronic vendors, such as Amazon.com, Google, and eBay, which have each created a distinct consumer profile, attract committed, repeat customers with whom they build GÇ£deep, meaningful, long-term relationshipsGÇ¥ [8, p. 76], and these customers are both loyal and enthusiastic in promoting the use of these e-vendorGÇÖs Web sites [51]. Srinivasan et al. [78] found that e-loyalty is generated by community, contact interactivity, care, and character. The Web site image can also influence a companyGÇÖs identity; research in marketing has found that Web site image affects both brand image [63] and consumer behavior [14]. I do declare, now you going to add theyre in the free2 play section !!! The point is non-obvious. Retention being low sorta undermines any claims of a "deep, meaningful, long-term relationship" being set up from SP. That's even discussing nothing about its negative effects on competitiveness and character value. What other game have you played that incorporates a primary PVP enviroment with secondary effect PVE activity or pure PVP, Give me an example of your vast gaming experience where an MMO you have encourtered you are as effective at 0 day to a 5 year old player to see if your basing it on anything concrete.You know where you can drive everything shoot everything fly everything at its max tier and its a level playing field as soon as you hit PLAY button. There is no primary environment in most MMOs with PvP servers (which most of them). Again, there seems no point in this section of the discussion. "Show me other games" is a really shallow response, btw. Almost every competitive game is played at max efficiency, from MOBAs, through sports games, competitive FPS (no unlocks through LAN), and RTS. There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence.
WoW you choose to play on PVP realms or PVE and or PVPRP - There is a distinct difference in player mentality between PVP/PVE realms You told me yesterday not to include FPS when i stated that they rely on personal skills and nothing in game to effect an advantage. I reiterate - in your vast gaming experience experience where an MMO you have encourtered you are as effective at 0 day to a 5 year old player to see if your basing it on anything concrete.You know where you can drive everything shoot everything fly everything at its max tier and its a level playing field as soon as you hit PLAY button.
Im getting this distinct feeling that im talking to some spoilt only child here, silver spoon always gotten everything youve ever wanted.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 14:03:39 -
[5042] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:There is no primary environment in most MMOs with PvP servers (which most of them). Again, there seems no point in this section of the discussion.
"Show me other games" is a really shallow response, btw. Almost every competitive game is played at max efficiency, from MOBAs, through sports games, competitive FPS (no unlocks through LAN), and RTS. There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence. WoW you choose to play on PVP realms or PVE and or PVPRP - There is a distinct difference in player mentality between PVP/PVE realms You told me yesterday not to include FPS when i stated that they rely on personal skills and nothing in game to effect an advantage. I reiterate - in your vast gaming experience experience where an MMO you have encourtered you are as effective at 0 day to a 5 year old player to see if your basing it on anything concrete.You know where you can drive everything shoot everything fly everything at its max tier and its a level playing field as soon as you hit PLAY button. Im getting this distinct feeling that im talking to some spoilt only child here, silver spoon always gotten everything youve ever wanted. Then do us all a favor and stop trying to base the greatness of SP on whether or not some games have leveling.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
136
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 14:17:33 -
[5043] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:There is no primary environment in most MMOs with PvP servers (which most of them). Again, there seems no point in this section of the discussion.
"Show me other games" is a really shallow response, btw. Almost every competitive game is played at max efficiency, from MOBAs, through sports games, competitive FPS (no unlocks through LAN), and RTS. There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence. WoW you choose to play on PVP realms or PVE and or PVPRP - There is a distinct difference in player mentality between PVP/PVE realms You told me yesterday not to include FPS when i stated that they rely on personal skills and nothing in game to effect an advantage. I reiterate - in your vast gaming experience experience where an MMO you have encourtered you are as effective at 0 day to a 5 year old player to see if your basing it on anything concrete.You know where you can drive everything shoot everything fly everything at its max tier and its a level playing field as soon as you hit PLAY button. Im getting this distinct feeling that im talking to some spoilt only child here, silver spoon always gotten everything youve ever wanted. Then do us all a favor and stop trying to base the greatness of SP on whether or not some games have leveling. im still waiting on your revalation of knowledge ....... Give me just 1that will be fine.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
136
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 14:46:55 -
[5044] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:There is no primary environment in most MMOs with PvP servers (which most of them). Again, there seems no point in this section of the discussion.
"Show me other games" is a really shallow response, btw. Almost every competitive game is played at max efficiency, from MOBAs, through sports games, competitive FPS (no unlocks through LAN), and RTS. There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence. WoW you choose to play on PVP realms or PVE and or PVPRP - There is a distinct difference in player mentality between PVP/PVE realms You told me yesterday not to include FPS when i stated that they rely on personal skills and nothing in game to effect an advantage. I reiterate - in your vast gaming experience experience where an MMO you have encourtered you are as effective at 0 day to a 5 year old player to see if your basing it on anything concrete.You know where you can drive everything shoot everything fly everything at its max tier and its a level playing field as soon as you hit PLAY button. Im getting this distinct feeling that im talking to some spoilt only child here, silver spoon always gotten everything youve ever wanted. Then do us all a favor and stop trying to base the greatness of SP on whether or not some games have leveling. im still waiting on your revalation of knowledge ....... Give me just 1that will be fine. i Didnt even see this Gem :
Dror wrote:There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence. The SP is one base model, how can you theorize its failing against a non existant entity, You need an equal model to even begin supposition.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 15:02:26 -
[5045] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:i Didnt even see this Gem : Dror wrote:There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence. The SP is one base model, how can you theorize its failing against a non existant entity, You need an equal model to even begin supposition. Does it really seem as if I'm saying SP should be removed because there are other games with or without leveling systems? Can you make a point or stop posting about it?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
136
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 15:09:19 -
[5046] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:i Didnt even see this Gem : Dror wrote:There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence. The SP is one base model, how can you theorize its failing against a non existant entity, You need an equal model to even begin supposition. Does it really seem as if I'm saying SP should be removed because there are other games with or without leveling systems? Can you make a point or stop posting about it? You need a baseline reference point to infer a failing of subject A over subject b since you have no point of reference to start with all corresponding theories fail.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 15:17:22 -
[5047] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:i Didnt even see this Gem : Dror wrote:There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence. The SP is one base model, how can you theorize its failing against a non existant entity, You need an equal model to even begin supposition. Does it really seem as if I'm saying SP should be removed because there are other games with or without leveling systems? Can you make a point or stop posting about it? You need a baseline reference point to infer a failing of subject A over subject b since you have no point of reference to start with all corresponding theories fail. That's not how game design functions. That's like saying 3D games should've failed because they weren't developed yet.
The reference point of SP failing is the low PCU vs all of the information we have on subscription trends for MMOs and on game design and monetization philosophies. I could list a page of reasons why SP is a low-quality design, but you apparently can't support it for any of them.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
136
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 15:39:27 -
[5048] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:i Didnt even see this Gem : Dror wrote:There's no evidence on the validity of the system by lack of its existence. The SP is one base model, how can you theorize its failing against a non existant entity, You need an equal model to even begin supposition. Does it really seem as if I'm saying SP should be removed because there are other games with or without leveling systems? Can you make a point or stop posting about it? You need a baseline reference point to infer a failing of subject A over subject b since you have no point of reference to start with all corresponding theories fail. That's not how game design functions. That's like saying 3D games should've failed because they weren't developed yet. The reference point of SP failing is the low PCU vs all of the information we have on subscription trends for MMOs and on game design and monetization philosophies. I could list a page of reasons why SP is a low-quality design, but you apparently can't support it for any of them. Just the same as you have no model to equal a sp one, Your assuming its the SP that effects retention. when we have Fact of timelime that indicates other Occurrence happenings. Only at year 9/10 did the retention fall which incurs intervention of other game related changes NOT the skillpoint.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 15:49:01 -
[5049] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Just the same as you have no model to equal a sp one, Your assuming its the SP that effects retention. when we have Fact of timelime that indicates other Occurrence happenings. Only at year 9/10 did the retention fall which incurs intervention of other game related changes NOT the skillpoint. What? The amount in the PC gaming demographic has been increasing as well.. You're saying that just because the game has had some amount of a positive sub trend that SP is fine, and that's just as empty of a statement as saying SP is awful only because of the PCU trend (there are plenty more reasons to criticize it that actually have to do with gameplay).
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2077
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 15:55:24 -
[5050] - Quote
Shut up Dror! SP isn't going anywhere so everything you're saying is irrelevant.
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks
|
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kraken11 jensen
The Gallant Collective Requiem Eternal
97
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 15:56:01 -
[5051] - Quote
what if they implement some way to get an small bonus if you play the game? (idk) ? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
136
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 16:17:48 -
[5052] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Just the same as you have no model to equal a sp one, Your assuming its the SP that effects retention. when we have Fact of timelime that indicates other Occurrence happenings. Only at year 9/10 did the retention fall which incurs intervention of other game related changes NOT the skillpoint. What? The amount in the PC gaming demographic has been increasing as well.. You're saying that just because the game has had some amount of a positive sub trend that SP is fine, and that's just as empty of a statement as saying SP is awful only because of the PCU trend (there are plenty more reasons to criticize it that actually have to do with gameplay).
If you would of said at year 1 / 2 that the sub retention was dropping i may have agreed on your skillpoint arguement, but seeing as subs continously rose from year 1 to year 9/10 then it has nothing at all to do with the skillpoint mechanic but another game intervention. Cross platform free game models has had a massive impact on the gaming demographic, unfortunatly EvE connot be used on tablets - phones - 80% laptops.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Etara Silverblade
Morex Group Inc. Haven.
62
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 18:04:42 -
[5053] - Quote
It looks like CCP has long since stopped checking this thread so we're probably just talking to ourselves. I don't think the CSM is reading it anymore either.
From reading the posts it seems like people are in 2 camps, those that think this feature will ruin the game and those that don't see what the big deal is. It doesn't seem like anyone really wants this feature because we all know it will just get abused to no end and time in game will no longer mean anything.
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 18:08:02 -
[5054] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Just the same as you have no model to equal a sp one, Your assuming its the SP that effects retention. when we have Fact of timelime that indicates other Occurrence happenings. Only at year 9/10 did the retention fall which incurs intervention of other game related changes NOT the skillpoint. What? The amount in the PC gaming demographic has been increasing as well.. You're saying that just because the game has had some amount of a positive sub trend that SP is fine, and that's just as empty of a statement as saying SP is awful only because of the PCU trend (there are plenty more reasons to criticize it that actually have to do with gameplay). If you would of said at year 1 / 2 that the sub retention was dropping i may have agreed on your skillpoint arguement, but seeing as subs continously rose from year 1 to year 9/10 then it has nothing at all to do with the skillpoint mechanic but another game intervention. Cross platform free game models has had a massive impact on the gaming demographic, unfortunatly EvE connot be used on tablets - phones - 80% laptops. It just seems shallow to say that because the game has had subs that there's no problem with SP. It's an extrinsic motivator, and it reduces intrinsic motivation options.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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LancashireUK
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 18:08:57 -
[5055] - Quote
It sounds good for those who may have stopped playing for a while and may have missed some skills, and good for new players to get into the game a little more quickly. However, as you can now buy ISK and other items with real money it will turn this game more into P2W. Yes you can buy everything with real money now but you have to take time to plan, train and learn.
I loved the idea of the training time as it helped prepare you for when you finally got your new or better ability, and left you waiting with excitement for it to finish, rather than just rushing in and ruining the experience.
Some ideas I think are better;
- We have three character slots on our account. Let us use them and train three characters at the same time, or reduce the extortionate costs to do so now .
- Character rename - Please let us have a character rename.
- Can we roll EVE back a couple of years
talkGEEK.net - GEEKY Gamers!
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
91
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 18:18:58 -
[5056] - Quote
Etara Silverblade wrote:It looks like CCP has long since stopped checking this thread so we're probably just talking to ourselves. I don't think the CSM is reading it anymore either.
From reading the posts it seems like people are in 2 camps, those that think this feature will ruin the game and those that don't see what the big deal is. It doesn't seem like anyone really wants this feature because we all know it will just get abused to no end and time in game will no longer mean anything.
It was smart. 2 groups... only Twisting facts not gonna work. There is a bunch of people who want that change. Too bad if you want to mislead people by false facts on purpose. |
Dave Stark
7867
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 18:20:55 -
[5057] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:CCP has an amazing track record for getting it wrong. you are aware you're talking about a company that created a game that has survived for over 12 years (i think we're at 12 years now aren't we?), that doesn't happen by accident. You are so out of touch it really is scary. You can't seriously believe half of what you type here and expect others to swallow it. Online statistics show. CCP is doing a wonderful job, they don't make mistakes that end up with players giving up and leaving. They have never made a mistake that caused a riot in the main trade hub of the game. Subscriptions levels are at an all time high - There is so much content no-one has to spend hours or even days flying around completely empty systems (that were 12 months ago active places to get fights). New Icons developed for a technology a minority use - That still look like crap on a 1080P monitor. Cruisers and battle cruisers, frigates and destroyers - Yes they have different icons - The dev blog says so - Though you would be hard pushed to tell them apart in game, without a magnifying glass. New map that is so overwhelmingly colourful it is all but unusable (pretty is not functional) - Scanning with it is a nightmare, unless of course you turn off all effects - Thankfully the map dev team is smart enough to realize their mistake and didn't remove a map that just works. One does have to wonder why the Beta map is still there, when it should have been removed until game ready (if ever). Rapid missile launchers - You really want to go there? I'm happy to, just let me know. Put your head back up where ever it came from ( I can only guess reading some of the drivel you've posted) and stop talking shite. Over my 8 years playing Eve, I have seen the good the bad and recently, quite ugly side of what passes for game development at CCP. Lie to yourself and the uninformed all you like, just don't try to lie to those who actually play the game.
you're welcome to not like half the changes that have been made in your 8 year career as a capsuleer - the fact remains EVE has stood the test of time where other MMOs have come along, gone free to play, and died in a corner.
again; that doesn't happen by accident.
i'm not going to sit here and pretend CCP are perfect and have never done anything wrong, but to pretend that having a game that has spanned 12 years is a fluke - you're out of your mind. |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
190
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 18:48:26 -
[5058] - Quote
I initially was against this change. But after the input of some people here, I think that the problems with it will only affect people that deserve to be negativelly impacted by it.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1683
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 18:49:28 -
[5059] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:It makes perfect sense. (Hint: allowing you to efficiently overtake significantly longer trained characters doesn't leave them with much prestige for their tenure, does it). What a twisted logic. It will be more efficient to strip 100 mil char into 3. Reallocating skllls on high level chars will be inefficent. What will be best to do to is strip them and make specialise alts. Where's the presitge of that? The prestige is the SP you have on that character, obviously. It's a non-trivial amount who's prestige is protected by ensuring that matching or exceeding it comes at significant cost.
The prestige of high SP characters is the skills and SP they have and the investment it takes to obtain them. This Prestige is protected by diminishing use of SP trading to ensure creating such characters remains far from trivial.
That's not twisted logic at all, just you thinking there's no value in having far greater SP, which itself is pretty twisted logic. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
137
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 19:00:02 -
[5060] - Quote
Dror wrote:It just seems shallow to say that because the game has had subs that there's no problem with SP. It's an extrinsic motivator, and it reduces intrinsic motivation options.
Facts: 1. You can fly a T3D T2 Fitted within your free month 2. There is no such thing as a even field in any pvp MMO - That actually exists in this reality. 3.Starter corps serve a very useful purpose in training pilot to except EvE's harshness and adapt accordingly, with fun and social activities. 4.From start to year 10 the subscription base was healthy and continued to grow. 5Only thing limiting your potential is you, seek and you shall be rewarded 6.With EvE if you log on for an hr, 5 hrs or dont log on for a week your characters still progressing without interaction. 7.Day one activities from aura / missioning / pvp / salvaging / mining / and more.
Dror i hate skillpoints, i want a total even playing field, i want access to all ships, why should i be held back by skillpoints, i hate skillpoints, why cant i fly capitals it shows them in videos, subs are bad i hate skillpoints, its there fault subs are bad.
If nothing else your consistent thats for sure. I think we've pretty much covered its more like a one man crusade over this seeing as nobody in this thread has said anything in your favour. It may not be perfect but it works well in EvE, hopefully they will get this next bit right depending what side of the fence you favour
+10 for Moac Tor's Idea's on it too.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1683
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 19:00:03 -
[5061] - Quote
Dror wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:You're not actually addressing if SP is a problem, nor if it is being updated because of that.
It causes a black market. That is supposedly an issue. You're also inaccurately ascribing value to characters and not gameplay. The point is just more evidence that subs aren't getting what they come for, whether it's a top tier character or a top tier experience. I did address that actually, I specifically addressed why this was being expanded. The relevant portion for this change is, "to make it accessible and not the playground of elites, as well as to build better character identity investment, we are looking at granulating it." It's not the presence of a black market, that's what justified the Bazaar initially, but we've moved beyond that. There is no black market for granulated SP (no means to trade it exists, thus no market can even be formed) so granulating SP can't be justified by that reasoning. Dror wrote:You're saying the study's idea is fundamentally flawed. That's on you. How is it not obvious that character value is directly correlative with what that character can do? No, I'm saying the study: a) wasn't actually presented itself, but your interpretations, shielding yourself from anyone determining applicability or critique b) even with your interpretations you gave doesn't actually support your assertions; you're still making the assumption that SP is a social determinator while not providing evidence this "study" actually says that. Rather you're taking your own bias about the value of a character being determined by SP and creating these equivalencies purely from that rather than the study. The rest of us don't see low SP players as effectively crippled and thus don't conflate that as being socially undesirable. You haven't presented any study with counter reasoning. Nothing says that SP trading produces a black market, obviously, but SP does. The study is quoted exactly. Quote:Developers should consider a skill-point character development system over a class-based system to balance play and to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win.
Social identity is defined as the individualGÇÖs knowledge that he or she belongs to a particular social group, as well as the emotional and value significance of his or her group membership.
Bagozzi and Dholakia [6] applied social identity theory to virtual spaces, and Dholakia et el.[21] further extended this research. In both studies, Internet users who had a stronger social identity tended to feel a greater desire to communicate with friends in virtual chat rooms. What are you not getting about fair gameplay and opportunity being key? So hold on, you're quoting a study that explicitly says character progression is good and promotes a skill system over a level system as ideal to justify the idea that a game should not have character progression or a skill system...
It also suggests skill development promotes retention via "lock-in." None of your ideas about retention in relation to eliminating character development actually fall in agreement with the study. This is exactly what we mean by cherry-picking info. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
138
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 19:09:16 -
[5062] - Quote
careful here he'll now switch to motivational needs or psychological ownership to knock you off your train of thought
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 19:55:11 -
[5063] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img] The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside. Please also read this reminder on our forum rules ~ ISD Decoy
Why not let players move there SP to other skills,
saying i have Amarr Battleships at level 5 and Caldari Battleship at level 1, and today i would like to fly my Raven so then i move the SP from Amarr Battleship knowing it is level 5 and place that SP into Caldari Battleship to make that level 5 where amarr Battleship will be level 1, tomorrow might want to swap again, this could be used for other skills, it would help a lot of people out, or make it so can move the SP back in to your Unallcated Skills Points, |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
91
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 20:18:42 -
[5064] - Quote
Suede wrote:CCP Logibro wrote:[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img] The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside. Please also read this reminder on our forum rules ~ ISD Decoy Why not let players move there SP to other skills, saying i have Amarr Battleships at level 5 and Caldari Battleship at level 1, and today i would like to fly my Raven so then i move the SP from Amarr Battleship knowing it is level 5 and place that SP into Caldari Battleship to make that level 5 where amarr Battleship will be level 1, tomorrow might want to swap again, this could be used for other skills, it would help a lot of people out, or make it so can move the SP back in to your Unallcated Skills Points, Because people already whining that consequences doesn't matter anymore. #1 #2 Please don't get it worse. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
471
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 20:21:54 -
[5065] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:That's not twisted logic at all, just you thinking there's no value in having far greater SP, which itself is pretty twisted logic. Not mine, CCPs. It the oppopssite to what they trying to do, if I can't reallocate my SPs at high level of them then
Quote:By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. is bull****. It's not for everyone, for low SPs players only.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 20:26:34 -
[5066] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:That's not twisted logic at all, just you thinking there's no value in having far greater SP, which itself is pretty twisted logic. Not mine, CCPs. It the oppopssite to what they trying to do, if I can't reallocate my SPs at high level of them then Quote:By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. is bull****. It's not for everyone, for low SPs players only.
Sounds like Eve is like a roller coaster. It has its ups and downs...but it's your choice to either scream or enjoy the ride. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
91
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 20:38:00 -
[5067] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:That's not twisted logic at all, just you thinking there's no value in having far greater SP, which itself is pretty twisted logic. Not mine, CCPs. It the oppopssite to what they trying to do, if I can't reallocate my SPs at high level of them then Quote:By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. is bull****. It's not for everyone, for low SPs players only. I'm feel sorry for you. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
471
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 20:44:24 -
[5068] - Quote
Any decisions to discuss CCP? This thread became redundant long time ago.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1685
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 20:54:25 -
[5069] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:That's not twisted logic at all, just you thinking there's no value in having far greater SP, which itself is pretty twisted logic. Not mine, CCPs. It the oppopssite to what they trying to do, if I can't reallocate my SPs at high level of them then Quote:By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. is bull****. It's not for everyone, for low SPs players only. It is for everyone. Before you could not remove unwanted skills or add SP packets at any rate. Since 50k > 0 that means you have greater control in adding SP. Since 500k > 0 you still have greater ability to remove skills. No one, including CCP, ever said your character would have the same level of return on SP packets as a new one. No such claim was made in the blog or otherwise.
No one ever said complete control, they said more control, which is exactly and demonstrably what you are getting.
And there is no such thing as a low SP player. I've played for years and would still be able to use this feature at max efficiency, just not on this character. All players can do it, just not on high SP characters.
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Jack Miton
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
4720
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 22:25:59 -
[5070] - Quote
Buying SP is BAD and you should feel BAD. You REALLY need to not implement this. If you do, it turns EVE into an entirely pay to have SP game.
Do not want.
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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Verminah Helbain
State Protectorate Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 23:38:52 -
[5071] - Quote
Since i cba to go through all the pages atm i might as well just ask. Has ccp actually comentened on this any further on the last 180 pages or so? |
Maraner
The Executioners Shadow Cartel
332
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 01:20:39 -
[5072] - Quote
Nope.
I think they are deciding who to throw under the bus. That or ask Mittens to come visit Iceland again |
Mag's
the united
20629
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 01:32:26 -
[5073] - Quote
Dror wrote:Mag's wrote:Dror wrote:Mag's wrote:So I called it correctly. A PR exercise, but it's still a done deal.
It's actually great news, as now I know what was wrong from the start. Apart from the idea that is. ..Which is? 8.46 am. .."Was a problem from the start" Yea it was, I'm glad you noticed as well.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Devasha Detrasha
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 04:57:18 -
[5074] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: Answer this one then.
When are you gonna resign from CCP?
Lol so mad. Also ccp seagull said this feature is imprtant to the future of the future of eve yesterday at eve vegas. Give it up lads, it's happening.
So arguably the best game ever made is gonna be turn into another pay2win ripoff? I see sad times ahead for this once upon a time outstanding game. |
Dave Stark
7870
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 05:57:20 -
[5075] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Buying SP is BAD and you should feel BAD. You REALLY need to not implement this. If you do, it turns EVE into an entirely pay to have SP game.
Do not want.
You're already paying to have sp |
Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group
164
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 07:03:51 -
[5076] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Etara Silverblade wrote:It looks like CCP has long since stopped checking this thread so we're probably just talking to ourselves. I don't think the CSM is reading it anymore either.
From reading the posts it seems like people are in 2 camps, those that think this feature will ruin the game and those that don't see what the big deal is. It doesn't seem like anyone really wants this feature because we all know it will just get abused to no end and time in game will no longer mean anything.
It was smart but not enough. Twisting facts not gonna work. There is a bunch of people who want that change. Too bad if you want to mislead people by false facts on purpose.
Where is there arguments for what this will solve? The main thrust of their arguments seem to be that we already have the bazaar, so in essence they are arguing that there will be no change.
The dev blog laid out what they feel like is a problem, I do not agree that it is, but even if it is the solution seems to be a resculpt + rename feature.
I think this change will be bad for the game, it will make the most powerful more powerful, it will make spying even more trivial than it is already. It will disenfranchise a number of players I know that have a lot of investment into their characters. I have a few brand new players playing and they are also against this change, they seem to feel like it is trivializing plans they have already laid out, and will make the game "grindy"
I would love for seagull to come onto this thread and explain why she thinks this feature is important for the future of eve. |
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
35
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 08:30:55 -
[5077] - Quote
Malice Redeemer wrote:
...
Where is there arguments for what this will solve? The main thrust of their arguments seem to be that we already have the bazaar, so in essence they are arguing that there will be no change.
...
That's the point. When this cash grab is already implemented, and CCP starts thinking about selling single "core" skills for real money, the same people will ask you where the problem is, because you are already able to buy SP for $. Its a downward spiral.
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
92
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 09:18:24 -
[5078] - Quote
Malice Redeemer wrote:General Lootit wrote:Etara Silverblade wrote:It looks like CCP has long since stopped checking this thread so we're probably just talking to ourselves. I don't think the CSM is reading it anymore either.
From reading the posts it seems like people are in 2 camps, those that think this feature will ruin the game and those that don't see what the big deal is. It doesn't seem like anyone really wants this feature because we all know it will just get abused to no end and time in game will no longer mean anything.
It was smart but not enough. Twisting facts not gonna work. There is a bunch of people who want that change. Too bad if you want to mislead people by false facts on purpose. Where is there arguments for what this will solve? The main thrust of their arguments seem to be that we already have the bazaar, so in essence they are arguing that there will be no change. Thats not my words. So I feel free to disagree with them. SP traiding is better because it will allow me to keep my indentity and spend money(isk in my case) in more consistent way.
Malice Redeemer wrote:it will make spying even more trivial than it is already About spying
Malice Redeemer wrote: it will make the most powerful more powerful
What a conspiracy... |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
303
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 09:56:11 -
[5079] - Quote
So CCP, you had more than a week to think it all over. I'm sure that by now a decision is made or a least a consensus is reached, what is it going to be? Stay true to a core concept of EVE or sell out. |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 10:19:06 -
[5080] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:So CCP, you had more than a week to think it all over. I'm sure that by now a decision is made or a least a consensus is reached, what is it going to be? Stay true to a core concept of EVE or sell out.
if it is more Money for CCP I am sure they will go head and do it, CCP making money come before there player base, as someone as to buy the milk |
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
138
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 11:40:06 -
[5081] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Suede wrote:CCP Logibro wrote:[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img] The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside. Please also read this reminder on our forum rules ~ ISD Decoy Why not let players move there SP to other skills, saying i have Amarr Battleships at level 5 and Caldari Battleship at level 1, and today i would like to fly my Raven so then i move the SP from Amarr Battleship knowing it is level 5 and place that SP into Caldari Battleship to make that level 5 where amarr Battleship will be level 1, tomorrow might want to swap again, this could be used for other skills, it would help a lot of people out, or make it so can move the SP back in to your Unallcated Skills Points, Because people already whining that consequences doesn't matter anymore. #1 #2 Please don't get it worse.
You know the 2 posts that you highlighted as examples that in game consequences don't matter are actually saying they do matter. Im not trying to twist your words or anything, just makes me wonder if something gets lost in translation.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
98
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 12:04:43 -
[5082] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Suede wrote:CCP Logibro wrote:[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img] The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside. Please also read this reminder on our forum rules ~ ISD Decoy Why not let players move there SP to other skills, saying i have Amarr Battleships at level 5 and Caldari Battleship at level 1, and today i would like to fly my Raven so then i move the SP from Amarr Battleship knowing it is level 5 and place that SP into Caldari Battleship to make that level 5 where amarr Battleship will be level 1, tomorrow might want to swap again, this could be used for other skills, it would help a lot of people out, or make it so can move the SP back in to your Unallcated Skills Points, Because people already whining that consequences doesn't matter anymore. #1 #2 Please don't get it worse. You know the 2 posts that you highlighted as examples that in game consequences don't matter are actually saying they do matter. Im not trying to twist your words or anything, just makes me wonder if something gets lost in translation. won't matter... are you happy now?
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
755
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 13:33:07 -
[5083] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:It makes perfect sense. (Hint: allowing you to efficiently overtake significantly longer trained characters doesn't leave them with much prestige for their tenure, does it). What a twisted logic. It will be more efficient to strip 100 mil char into 3. Reallocating skllls on high level chars will be inefficent. What will be best to do to is strip them and make specialise alts. Where's the presitge of that? The prestige is the SP you have on that character, obviously. It's a non-trivial amount who's prestige is protected by ensuring that matching or exceeding it comes at significant cost. The prestige of high SP characters is the skills and SP they have and the investment it takes to obtain them. This Prestige is protected by diminishing use of SP trading to ensure creating such characters remains far from trivial. That's not twisted logic at all, just you thinking there's no value in having far greater SP, which itself is pretty twisted logic. 3 character slots - 3 X 50 mil SP characters - You can fly just about anything you choose if you know how to use those SP your going to buy - Far cheaper, much faster and more effective than training 1 character to 150 mil SP. As long as SP packets are available, it will no longer be worth training up 1 highly skilled pilot.
Once you get all 3 to 50 mil SP, your still going to have to pay the monthly sub, just put that to use on 1 character and train your little heart out. Won't mean much though, you can already fly everything worth flying.
Want to fly a titan you can do it with less than 50 mil SP and have good skills for your chosen titan.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode -
Vice Admiral, Forum Dictator, Arrogant Nobody
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Lexiana Del'Amore
Nouvelle Rouvenor
176
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 15:32:00 -
[5084] - Quote
Time invested playing and learning the game is MORE important than skillpoints...
this change will provide a small short-term boost in players but lead to a longterm drop.
DON'T DO IT CCP !!! |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
487
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 15:36:52 -
[5085] - Quote
The silence is typical for this kind of blog. They might have gotten more heat than they realized and went into PR mode. Or the devs working on this 'feature' are still analyzing and debating the issues but unfortunately are not holding a dialogue with the players. Or it could be that this is being pushed by the execs and the devs have really no good answers as their hands are tied and execs of course will not reply to us. Or could be something else completely, I'm not privy to their inner workings. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
138
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 16:49:30 -
[5086] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:As a player, the Character Bazaar is how I made the switch from being a 15 million skillpoint Interceptor pilot to being a 33 million skillpoint Battleship pilot. I was able to afford it using the ISK I had earned in my first year plus the sale value of my character. What actually drew you to the pilot in the first place, the fact it was a battleship pilot or that it had 33 mill skillpoints and it was in your price bracket.
CCP Rise wrote:That part really hits home for me is Kil2 had been involved in some kind of corp theft which meant I had to deal with negative reputation issues for years afterwards. As always pointed out in EvE, Actions have consequences. You dont need 3rd party software to insert a players name in the client check his last few corps and send them a message, Even just tell them he's applied to the corp is he ok ?? Just because you saw 33m skillpoints doesnt mean you throw caution to the wind and impulse buy.
CCP Rise wrote:I went from being called GÇÿTurbo DinosaurGÇÖ to being called GÇÿKil2GÇÖ. Puke, On top of all that, you have to accept that you donGÇÖt get any personalization of the character youGÇÖre buying. The name, exact skill distribution and reputation are all set before you buy. Personalization, If you had the chance to reskill "Turbo Dinosaur" to the battleship pilot you wanted to be in the first place would you of even looked at purchasing Kil2.Puke, In this scenario you wouldnt of had to deal with the 2 years of negativity if the options below are offered.
CCP Rise wrote:We also discovered that the vast majority of complexity involved in character sales goes away if you make them more granular. Rather than requiring that characters be sold whole, we could allow them to be broken up and sold in chunks. This means that buyers get to retain all the individuality associated with their characters and sellers can make some money off their training mistakes or unused skills without having to part ways with an entire character. So you now want to basically butcher characters in pursuit of personalization instead of allowing us to reskill, Introducing a product that could possibly be abused by anyone in game. This option submitted by Moac TorTakes away that very problem, Has specific targeted uses and could be sold in game for those who wanted to use game currency to purchase and on the website where plex are - for cash. These offer true personalization not the chop shop version. If its for a true way to personalize the game, to involve a new client base as well as benefit all others existing you would do well to look at the alternative. Lets see if someone will actually respond
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
105
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 17:19:58 -
[5087] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: Lets see if someone will actually respond Let me.
Levi Belvar wrote: be abused by anyone in game Some of them want to abuse you Some of them want to be abused.
Sweet dreams are made of this Who am I to disagree? |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
489
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 17:23:43 -
[5088] - Quote
That should be the trailer for eve lol |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1873
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 17:27:56 -
[5089] - Quote
Can I patent the phrase' Can I haz your stuff? And your brain?' I think it could be a good earner... |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
105
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 17:34:40 -
[5090] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Can I patent the phrase' Can I haz your stuff? And your brain?' I think it could be a good earner... vain laugh |
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
108
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 20:03:42 -
[5091] - Quote
CCPlease don't force me to call my ship "Serenity" and wearing browncoat. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1688
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 21:09:53 -
[5092] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:It makes perfect sense. (Hint: allowing you to efficiently overtake significantly longer trained characters doesn't leave them with much prestige for their tenure, does it). What a twisted logic. It will be more efficient to strip 100 mil char into 3. Reallocating skllls on high level chars will be inefficent. What will be best to do to is strip them and make specialise alts. Where's the presitge of that? The prestige is the SP you have on that character, obviously. It's a non-trivial amount who's prestige is protected by ensuring that matching or exceeding it comes at significant cost. The prestige of high SP characters is the skills and SP they have and the investment it takes to obtain them. This Prestige is protected by diminishing use of SP trading to ensure creating such characters remains far from trivial. That's not twisted logic at all, just you thinking there's no value in having far greater SP, which itself is pretty twisted logic. 3 character slots - 3 X 50 mil SP characters - You can fly just about anything you choose if you know how to use those SP your going to buy - Far cheaper, much faster and more effective than training 1 character to 150 mil SP. As long as SP packets are available, it will no longer be worth training up 1 highly skilled pilot. Once you get all 3 to 50 mil SP, your still going to have to pay the monthly sub, just put that to use on 1 character and train your little heart out. Won't mean much though, you can already fly everything worth flying. Want to fly a titan you can do it with less than 50 mil SP and have good skills for your chosen titan. 150m SP goes further on one character than 3 by eliminating redundancies. Whatever you can fly with those 3 you cam fly some or all of it better with that single character. The solution of creating 3 50mill SP characters is unlikely to be cheap unless SP on the market gets dirt cheap compared to it's "cost" to produce, and the flexibility of high SP characters in multiple roles will remain.
And if you go for a titan at 50m SP you're using half or more between supports and prereqs. For a dedicated titan character that's fine, for a character you plan on making a main probably not so much unless you have a limited amount else you want to fly and/or you stay away from T2/3 ships that eat SP in training.
What value the ability to have several roles concentrated into single characters has will vary from person to person, but my multi-role frigate/destroyer pilot is over 50m SP due to the full range of abilities and efficiencies I wanted that character to have. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
308
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 22:38:46 -
[5093] - Quote
Suede wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:So CCP, you had more than a week to think it all over. I'm sure that by now a decision is made or a least a consensus is reached, what is it going to be? Stay true to a core concept of EVE or sell out. if it is more Money for CCP I am sure they will go head and do it, CCP making money come before there player base, as someone as to buy the milk
They did well before, so not an excuse. |
Mag's
the united
20632
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 08:20:34 -
[5094] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Suede wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:So CCP, you had more than a week to think it all over. I'm sure that by now a decision is made or a least a consensus is reached, what is it going to be? Stay true to a core concept of EVE or sell out. if it is more Money for CCP I am sure they will go head and do it, CCP making money come before there player base, as someone as to buy the milk They did well before, so not an excuse. This thread was merely a PR exercise, to make the players feel involved and to fulfil their promise to the CSM. While there may be a few changes here and there, (which is normal anyway) it was actually already a done deal.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
315
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 08:30:10 -
[5095] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Suede wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:So CCP, you had more than a week to think it all over. I'm sure that by now a decision is made or a least a consensus is reached, what is it going to be? Stay true to a core concept of EVE or sell out. if it is more Money for CCP I am sure they will go head and do it, CCP making money come before there player base, as someone as to buy the milk They did well before, so not an excuse. This thread was merely a PR exercise, to make the players feel involved and to fulfil their promise to the CSM. While there may be a few changes here and there, (which is normal anyway) it was actually already a done deal.
CCP has a rich history of being very stubborn in their dumb ideas only to finally back down again after they slowly started to realise how dumb the ideas actually were while being adamant, right up to that point, about pushing it through. I'm hoping that common sense will prevail yet again.
This is not the first time we ended up in this situation :) |
Mag's
the united
20633
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 08:39:38 -
[5096] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Mag's wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Suede wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:So CCP, you had more than a week to think it all over. I'm sure that by now a decision is made or a least a consensus is reached, what is it going to be? Stay true to a core concept of EVE or sell out. if it is more Money for CCP I am sure they will go head and do it, CCP making money come before there player base, as someone as to buy the milk They did well before, so not an excuse. This thread was merely a PR exercise, to make the players feel involved and to fulfil their promise to the CSM. While there may be a few changes here and there, (which is normal anyway) it was actually already a done deal. CCP has a rich history of being very stubborn in their dumb ideas only to finally back down again after they slowly started to realise how dumb the ideas actually were while being adamant, right up to that point, about pushing it through. I'm hoping that common sense will prevail yet again. This is not the first time we ended up in this situation :) They also have a rich history of ignoring feedback (the parts that stop the idea) and going ahead anyway. Then trying to sort out the mess that ensues, but never really doing so.
You may be right, but I have my doubts in this instance.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
138
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 09:25:37 -
[5097] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Mag's wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Suede wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:So CCP, you had more than a week to think it all over. I'm sure that by now a decision is made or a least a consensus is reached, what is it going to be? Stay true to a core concept of EVE or sell out. if it is more Money for CCP I am sure they will go head and do it, CCP making money come before there player base, as someone as to buy the milk They did well before, so not an excuse. This thread was merely a PR exercise, to make the players feel involved and to fulfil their promise to the CSM. While there may be a few changes here and there, (which is normal anyway) it was actually already a done deal. CCP has a rich history of being very stubborn in their dumb ideas only to finally back down again after they slowly started to realise how dumb the ideas actually were while being adamant, right up to that point, about pushing it through. I'm hoping that common sense will prevail yet again. This is not the first time we ended up in this situation :) It was not curiosity that killed the goose who laid the golden egg, but an insatiable greed that devoured common sense.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 09:38:43 -
[5098] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Mag's wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Suede wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:So CCP, you had more than a week to think it all over. I'm sure that by now a decision is made or a least a consensus is reached, what is it going to be? Stay true to a core concept of EVE or sell out. if it is more Money for CCP I am sure they will go head and do it, CCP making money come before there player base, as someone as to buy the milk They did well before, so not an excuse. This thread was merely a PR exercise, to make the players feel involved and to fulfil their promise to the CSM. While there may be a few changes here and there, (which is normal anyway) it was actually already a done deal. CCP has a rich history of being very stubborn in their dumb ideas only to finally back down again after they slowly started to realise how dumb the ideas actually were while being adamant, right up to that point, about pushing it through. I'm hoping that common sense will prevail yet again. This is not the first time we ended up in this situation :)
reading this says other story http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf
Story of White Wolf. |
Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group
167
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 11:00:49 -
[5099] - Quote
General Lootit wrote: What a conspiracy...
So you are saying this won't help the largest corporations recruit more members? |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
316
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 11:04:58 -
[5100] - Quote
SuedeThis is not the first time we ended up in this situation :)[/quote wrote:
I'll paste a partial reply of mine from a different thread but it explains why the WOD thing actually speaks for us in this regard.
[quote]EVE Always was intended to be a niche game and it did just fine in that role.
Then DEVS got illusions of grandeur and started wasting EVE money on other stuff, not money they had ON TOP of what was needed for EVE... no, they halted time, effort and money intended for EVE and spent it elsewhere. And then, to make up for the obvious reality check and problems that followed from that they tried to implement p2w into EVE. Almost more worrying, WiS in EVE was just a tech demo so they used up resources from EVE to build WoD and then they used EVE to act as a testing bed for WoD, while being utterly terrible. THAT is what the rioting was about, it never was about WiS itself (would it have been implemented properly) but about the situation and reasoning to have it forced into the game.
CCP started to do a lot better, lots of changes in regards to attitude, focus and progress. Tons of really good stuff, in fact EVE has never been in a better state, from a tech pov. But then it happened AGAIN: illusions of grandeur, which is fine if only they didn't waste EVE resources on it. CCP started to, yet again, waste EVE money on other projects which , yet again, didn't get managed too well and thus, yet again, get them in trouble and they, yet again, try to look at P2W solutions for a short term income boost. Sounds familiar?
CCP seems to require continued explaining that killing the golden goose will get them a juicy dinner for one night but is, on the whole, a moronically dumb thing to do. Some times they need to be told to wear their dunce hat and be put in the corner of the room for a bit, this is one of those times. |
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
112
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 12:29:56 -
[5101] - Quote
Malice Redeemer wrote:General Lootit wrote: What a conspiracy...
So you are saying this won't help the largest corporations recruit more members? I'm saying that it will helps noobs to socialize also. Are you so afraid a bunch of noobs? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
138
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 12:58:33 -
[5102] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Malice Redeemer wrote:General Lootit wrote: What a conspiracy...
So you are saying this won't help the largest corporations recruit more members? I'm saying that it will helps noobs to socialize also.
So giving someone skillpoints will help them to speak, from the person who's already stated :
I dont care about anyone else, nobodies gonna tell me how to play my game I dont care about noobs, more of them for me to shoot Is only bothered about what he gets out of the game Only bothered about funding his gameplay for free.
You really do grasp MMO
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
318
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 13:03:22 -
[5103] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Malice Redeemer wrote:General Lootit wrote: What a conspiracy...
So you are saying this won't help the largest corporations recruit more members? I'm saying that it will helps noobs to socialize also. So giving someone skillpoints will help them to speak, from the person who's already stated : I dont care about anyone else, nobodies gonna tell me how to play my game I dont care about noobs, more of them for me to shoot Is only bothered about what he gets out of the game Only bothered about funding his gameplay for free. You really do grasp MMO
You don't get it, they'll use any kind of :logic:, however dumb or hilarious it is, to try and convince folks it's really "for the betterment of the game" if this would be implemented. There's no point in trying to reason with that because a) everyone knows it's a fake stance and b) they're not interested nor capable to actually discuss the issue, they just want to throw **** at the wall and hope something sticks |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 13:03:56 -
[5104] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Suede wrote: reading this says other story
I'll paste a partial reply of mine from a different thread but it explains why the WOD thing actually speaks for us in this regard. Quote:EVE Always was intended to be a niche game and it did just fine in that role.
Then DEVS got illusions of grandeur and started wasting EVE money on other stuff, not money they had ON TOP of what was needed for EVE... no, they halted time, effort and money intended for EVE and spent it elsewhere. And then, to make up for the obvious reality check and problems that followed from that they tried to implement p2w into EVE. Almost more worrying, WiS in EVE was just a tech demo so they used up resources from EVE to build WoD and then they used EVE to act as a testing bed for WoD, while being utterly terrible. THAT is what the rioting was about, it never was about WiS itself (would it have been implemented properly) but about the situation and reasoning to have it forced into the game.
CCP started to do a lot better, lots of changes in regards to attitude, focus and progress. Tons of really good stuff, in fact EVE has never been in a better state, from a tech pov. But then it happened AGAIN: illusions of grandeur, which is fine if only they didn't waste EVE resources on it. CCP started to, yet again, waste EVE money on other projects which , yet again, didn't get managed too well and thus, yet again, get them in trouble and they, yet again, try to look at P2W solutions for a short term income boost. Sounds familiar? CCP seems to require continued explaining that killing the golden goose will get them a juicy dinner for one night but is, on the whole, a moronically dumb thing to do. Some times they need to be told to wear their dunce hat and be put in the corner of the room for a bit, this is one of those times.
This is a familiar feature in online games, but usually a new outfit for a player character will cost $15-20. CCP decided to charge much more. The most notorious example was a monocle costing $70. The price tag infuriated fans kick-starting a major pricing controversy that would go on to become known as Monocle-gate.
The CEO had members of the fiction writing team put the apology together - he was either so out of touch, so arrogant, that he couldnGÇÖt find the words himself
Eventually CEO Hilmar Veigar P+¬tursson issued an apology to the players. But even this short appeasement wasnGÇÖt what it seemed; according to Blood, Petursson didnGÇÖt actually write it.
more bad business practices if the CEO of CCP can not talk to it paying player base says a lot,
anyhow we just going to have to wait to see if this SP trading is other Monocle-gate.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
112
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 13:11:25 -
[5105] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: I dont care about anyone else, nobodies gonna tell me how to play my game I dont care about noobs, more of them for me to shoot Is only bothered about what he gets out of the game Only bothered about funding his gameplay for free.
*Strawman* buddy Please don't speak for me. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3062
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 13:11:29 -
[5106] - Quote
We all know that CCP are doing this because they need the money, all the sugar coating and ingame rationalization in the world does not alter this simple fact.
This is not a signature.
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
58
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 13:27:53 -
[5107] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:It just seems shallow to say that because the game has had subs that there's no problem with SP. It's an extrinsic motivator, and it reduces intrinsic motivation options. Facts: 1. You can fly a T3D T2 Fitted ship within your free month 2. There is no such thing as a even field in any pvp MMO - That actually exists in this reality. 3.Starter corps serve a very useful purpose in training pilot to except EvE's harshness and adapt accordingly, with fun and social activities. 4.From start to year 10 the subscription base was healthy and continued to grow. 5Only thing limiting your potential is you, seek and you shall be rewarded 6.With EvE if you log on for an hr, 5 hrs or dont log on for a week your characters still progressing without interaction. 7.Day one activities from aura / missioning / pvp / salvaging / mining / and more. Dror i hate skillpoints, i want a total even playing field, i want access to all ships, why should i be held back by skillpoints, i hate skillpoints, why cant i fly capitals it shows them in videos, subs are bad i hate skillpoints, its there fault subs are bad. If nothing else your consistent thats for sure. I think we've pretty much covered its more like a one man crusade over this seeing as nobody in this thread has said anything in your favour. It may not be perfect but it works well in EvE, hopefully they will get this next bit right depending what side of the fence you favour +10 for Moac Tor's Idea's on it too. There are even playing fields. For example, WoW's arena PvP has an equal opportunity to get max gear. If you start playing later, there's a PvP-gear-currency catchup allowance for having an even playing field. The problems with WoW's equal opportunity for PvP is that the class-based system promotes comps (just like EVE's class-based ships promote comps). The logically great part about WoW's progression is that any other class is open for play.
Starter corps are plausibly deterred from having limited options as much as any single character. For more information, you might check out retention stats.
SP doesn't limit potential? Really? Of course it limits. That's, for some gameplay reason unbeknownst to any, apparently, its whole purpose.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:So hold on, you're quoting a study that explicitly says character progression is good and promotes a skill system over a level system as ideal to justify the idea that a game should not have character progression or a skill system...
It also suggests skill development promotes retention via "lock-in." None of your ideas about retention in relation to eliminating character development actually fall in agreement with the study. This is exactly what we mean by cherry-picking info. Contrasting the equal opportunities of "skill progression" vs "a class system" suggests nothing about the validity of character progression as a defining game mechanic. You're pulling that one out of nowhere, it seems. If the point of a skill-based system over class-based is providing equal opportunity to win a battle, that shuts out SP.
"Lock-in" is an inherent phenomena because of the cost of switching games, including monetarily and socially.
Your ability to read is underwhelming.. and the very definition of cherry-picking.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
318
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 13:32:02 -
[5108] - Quote
Suede wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Suede wrote: reading this says other story
I'll paste a partial reply of mine from a different thread but it explains why the WOD thing actually speaks for us in this regard. Quote:EVE Always was intended to be a niche game and it did just fine in that role.
Then DEVS got illusions of grandeur and started wasting EVE money on other stuff, not money they had ON TOP of what was needed for EVE... no, they halted time, effort and money intended for EVE and spent it elsewhere. And then, to make up for the obvious reality check and problems that followed from that they tried to implement p2w into EVE. Almost more worrying, WiS in EVE was just a tech demo so they used up resources from EVE to build WoD and then they used EVE to act as a testing bed for WoD, while being utterly terrible. THAT is what the rioting was about, it never was about WiS itself (would it have been implemented properly) but about the situation and reasoning to have it forced into the game.
CCP started to do a lot better, lots of changes in regards to attitude, focus and progress. Tons of really good stuff, in fact EVE has never been in a better state, from a tech pov. But then it happened AGAIN: illusions of grandeur, which is fine if only they didn't waste EVE resources on it. CCP started to, yet again, waste EVE money on other projects which , yet again, didn't get managed too well and thus, yet again, get them in trouble and they, yet again, try to look at P2W solutions for a short term income boost. Sounds familiar? CCP seems to require continued explaining that killing the golden goose will get them a juicy dinner for one night but is, on the whole, a moronically dumb thing to do. Some times they need to be told to wear their dunce hat and be put in the corner of the room for a bit, this is one of those times. This is a familiar feature in online games, but usually a new outfit for a player character will cost $15-20. CCP decided to charge much more. The most notorious example was a monocle costing $70. The price tag infuriated fans kick-starting a major pricing controversy that would go on to become known as Monocle-gate. The CEO had members of the fiction writing team put the apology together - he was either so out of touch, so arrogant, that he couldnGÇÖt find the words himself Eventually CEO Hilmar Veigar P+¬tursson issued an apology to the players. But even this short appeasement wasnGÇÖt what it seemed; according to Blood, Petursson didnGÇÖt actually write it. more bad business practices if the CEO of CCP can not talk to it paying player base says a lot, anyhow we just going to have to wait to see if this SP trading is other Monocle-gate.
It is, because it started for the same reason: CCP fcked up with other projects and are now looking to milk EVE beyond what is deemed acceptable within the game's core design, only to get short term income to cover the mess they created. Instead they need to deal with that mess, get rid of it, cut costs, I don't CARE what they do. Just don't sell out EVE.
I'm fine with CCP making extra money to fund stuff as long as they do so within the parameters we hold them to: no p2w, only cosmetics and no circumvention of the ingame economy and/or player created content". They can do skins, more skins, race resets (not name, corp history or SP), heck they can make "pets" in the form of orbiting droids doing all kinds of whirring and whizzing (to keep miners happy and occupied), as long as it doesn't actually impact the game. They'd be stupid not to and that really is the thing.
For some reason they're not doing what we've actually like them doing, we'd love to send more money to CCP for skins, more clothing options, more tattoos and whatever the fck else but for some reason they're not doing that or at least not at the scale or speed that could be expected. Instead they come up with this ****.
Example: we have the golden pod, I'm willing to bet a fckton of money that if they would implement more of those (one for each major faction but also the pirate factions) and make then quite expensive they'd sell like hotcakes. They're completely useless, you won't ever really see them anyway but I'd pay through the nose for a Kaalakiotaa pod and I'm sure you'd pay quite a bit to have one for a faction you align yourself with. They have the precedent and technology yet for some reason we're still waiting for this. How DUMB must one's marketing team be to not recognise this and act on it? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
138
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 14:03:55 -
[5109] - Quote
These people speaking that they want all in EvE now why dont you ask CCP seagull to give you EvE Offline - single player and use the Tilde command /Giveall
There's a reason no such thing comes in online games, the shelf life after you blitz'd through it in 90 mins is Zero.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
58
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 14:05:54 -
[5110] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:These people speaking that they want all in EvE now why dont you ask CCP seagull to give you EvE Offline - single player and use the Tilde command /Giveall
There's a reason no such thing comes in online games, the shelf life after you blitz'd through it in 90 mins is Zero. "I can get a Titan in 90m." Please, share.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 14:23:22 -
[5111] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:These people speaking that they want all in EvE now why dont you ask CCP seagull to give you EvE Offline - single player and use the Tilde command /Giveall
There's a reason no such thing comes in online games, the shelf life after you blitz'd through it in 90 mins is Zero. "I can get a Titan in 90m." Please, share. You can't even get one in Sisi without having one in tranq I think?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
113
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 14:34:11 -
[5112] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:These people speaking Come on!
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
138
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 14:36:31 -
[5113] - Quote
Dror wrote:There are even playing fields. For example, WoW's arena PvP has an equal opportunity to get max gear. If you start playing later, there's a PvP-gear-currency catchup allowance for having an even playing field. The problems with WoW's equal opportunity for PvP is that the class-based system promotes comps (just like EVE's class-based ships promote comps). The logically great part about WoW's progression is that any other class is open for play. How can you compared wow's PvP arena though, you can't start doing it until you reach level 70, even when you start to use there Battlegrounds theyre capped at levels:
Arathi Basin - start 10 then locked in groups 10/19 20/29 30/39 40/49 to cap Warsong Gulch - start 10 then locked in groups 10/19 20/29 30/39 40/49 to cap Alterac valley - start level 20 then locked in groups 20/29 30/39 40/49 to cap
There is not a single Arena or Battleground in WoW where even a level 10 character can face off to a level 100 with good reason!! Is there something you do not comprehend about SANDBOX.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
318
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 14:44:53 -
[5114] - Quote
Hey Rise, this is the level of reasoning your idea is based on. Are you ashamed yet?
Dror wrote:There are even playing fields. For example, WoW's arena PvP has an equal opportunity to get max gear. If you start playing later, there's a PvP-gear-currency catchup allowance for having an even playing field. The problems with WoW's equal opportunity for PvP is that the class-based system promotes comps (just like EVE's class-based ships promote comps). The logically great part about WoW's progression is that any other class is open for play. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 15:17:20 -
[5115] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:There are even playing fields. For example, WoW's arena PvP has an equal opportunity to get max gear. If you start playing later, there's a PvP-gear-currency catchup allowance for having an even playing field. The problems with WoW's equal opportunity for PvP is that the class-based system promotes comps (just like EVE's class-based ships promote comps). The logically great part about WoW's progression is that any other class is open for play. How can you compared wow's PvP arena though, you can't start doing it until you reach level 70, even when you start to use there Battlegrounds theyre capped at levels: Arathi Basin - start 10 then locked in groups 10/19 20/29 30/39 40/49 to cap Warsong Gulch - start 10 then locked in groups 10/19 20/29 30/39 40/49 to cap Alterac valley - start level 20 then locked in groups 20/29 30/39 40/49 to cap There is not a single Arena or Battleground in WoW where even a level 10 character can face off to a level 100 with good reason!! Is there something you do not comprehend about SANDBOX. Also eve has pilot / capsuleers - We can fly any ship in game when we have invested the time to use them, WoW once a lock always a lock thats why your study advocates a skillpoint system over a class based system. Every pilot has access to anything in game and is equal. - WoW when wrath came out DK's were OP / when cata came out it was ret pala's and mages / MoP it was locks / WoD it was hunters. PvP even to this day you'll need more than one person to bring a blood DK down - OP It should seem obvious that leveling in MMOs is irrelevant content. The gameplay comes at max level, as does PvP tuning. That leveling is untuned is irreleavant for discussing interesting gameplay. In fact, the low quality of "a lvl 10 vs a lvl 100" should clear up just how awful leveling is, and that includes SP. The sort-of equivalent is a low-SP frigate vs a T3C. It's possible leveling up every class before it is "leveling" SP. ..Warm memo that no EVE character is maxed.
In other words, you're not making a point. That is, the implication that leveling is somehow relevant for discussing equal opportunity is, at best, low quality.
Tiberius Heth wrote:Hey Rise, this is the level of reasoning your idea is based on. Are you ashamed yet? Dror wrote:There are even playing fields. For example, WoW's arena PvP has an equal opportunity to get max gear. If you start playing later, there's a PvP-gear-currency catchup allowance for having an even playing field. The problems with WoW's equal opportunity for PvP is that the class-based system promotes comps (just like EVE's class-based ships promote comps). The logically great part about WoW's progression is that any other class is open for play. If you actually have anything to say, maybe you should post it.
Can you make a claim -- a hypothesis?
Dror wrote:How objective motivation is? How creativity comes best from intrinsic motivation? How MMO subs seem most correlative with the perceived amount of content? How game loyalty comes from "social identity" and scientifically defined "psychological ownership" of the character?
Enjoy.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
138
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 15:32:29 -
[5116] - Quote
Why does your Study advocate a skillpoint system over a class based one then?, also when you come to what ever a level cap is in place in a class based game then your on whats called End Game Content, where is EvE's end game content as we dont have an end game. Once your level 100 in wow you run the same raids the same dungeons on the same maps waiting for the next exp to hit. We have no end game.
As a pilot the more time invested ( skillpoint system from your study) the more we achieve, were no stronger or weaker we all start the same we all gain the same maximum amount of sp's daily if theyre optimised - We're all equal.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
138
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 15:41:22 -
[5117] - Quote
Dror wrote:How objective motivation is? How creativity comes best from intrinsic motivation? How MMO subs seem most correlative with the perceived amount of content? How game loyalty comes from "social identity" and scientifically defined "psychological ownership" of the character?
Questionnaire Items 1. Primary Control over the Character [24, 65]
Pcon1: I can decorate or personalize my character as much as I want. (deleted) Pcon2: I know how to effectively control my character. Pcon3: In general, I am adept at managing my character.
2. Secondary Control over the Character [24, 65]
Scon1: I have invested a great deal of time in managing my character. Scon2: I spend a great deal of time as my character. Scon3: I frequently visit the game to manage my character.
3. Psychological Ownership Toward the Character [25, 65]
Own1: The character that I control in the game belongs to me. (deleted) Own2: I have strong feelings of ownership toward my character. Own3: I interact with my character. (deleted) Own4: I feel that my character is an extended part of myself.
Look at 2/1 and most of the questions would suggest they were RP'ers more than hardcore gamers, i seen some of that in action and explains the questions what they were asked more now. WTF ,i seen someone holding a wedding service in wow once and almost quit.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 16:31:01 -
[5118] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:These people speaking that they want all in EvE now why dont you ask CCP seagull to give you EvE Offline - single player and use the Tilde command /Giveall
There's a reason no such thing comes in online games, the shelf life after you blitz'd through it in 90 mins is Zero.
After you clean yourself up from all the vomit you've spewed please elaborate on this. |
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1307
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 16:33:17 -
[5119] - Quote
I have removed a couple off-topic posts and those quoting them.
Quote:27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
138
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 16:41:01 -
[5120] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:These people speaking that they want all in EvE now why dont you ask CCP seagull to give you EvE Offline - single player and use the Tilde command /Giveall
There's a reason no such thing comes in online games, the shelf life after you blitz'd through it in 90 mins is Zero. After you clean yourself up from all the vomit you've spewed please elaborate on this.
There are a few people here who think they should have access to everything in game without effort and i mean it all, remove the skillpoint system it only serves to spoil the game, fly titans marauders anything.
I was suggesting they find a single player game and use the console command, tilde key ? and when they have everything without effort how boring it is very quickly.
If you couldnt be arsed to read the whole thing Dror's been spouting for almost a week, you would understand my comments to him.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
113
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 16:45:36 -
[5121] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: There are a few people here who think they should have access to everything in game without effort
Really? Who are they? |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 16:51:05 -
[5122] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:These people speaking that they want all in EvE now why dont you ask CCP seagull to give you EvE Offline - single player and use the Tilde command /Giveall
There's a reason no such thing comes in online games, the shelf life after you blitz'd through it in 90 mins is Zero. After you clean yourself up from all the vomit you've spewed please elaborate on this. There are a few people here who think they should have access to everything in game without effort and i mean it all, remove the skillpoint system it only serves to spoil the game, fly titans marauders anything. I was suggesting they find a single player game and use the console command, tilde key ? and when they have everything without effort how boring it is very quickly. If you couldnt be arsed to read the whole thing Dror's been spouting for almost a week, you would understand my comments to him. Just clarifying, "without effort" is without the content being locked behind ludicrous SP walls. Reasonable skill book costs are fine, reasonable production costs, etc., but the game is undermining its own feature list by implying that you can do anything, then shutting it behind paywalls, essentially.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
142
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 17:14:17 -
[5123] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:These people speaking that they want all in EvE now why dont you ask CCP seagull to give you EvE Offline - single player and use the Tilde command /Giveall
There's a reason no such thing comes in online games, the shelf life after you blitz'd through it in 90 mins is Zero. After you clean yourself up from all the vomit you've spewed please elaborate on this. There are a few people here who think they should have access to everything in game without effort and i mean it all, remove the skillpoint system it only serves to spoil the game, fly titans marauders anything. I was suggesting they find a single player game and use the console command, tilde key ? and when they have everything without effort how boring it is very quickly. If you couldnt be arsed to read the whole thing Dror's been spouting for almost a week, you would understand my comments to him. Just clarifying, "without effort" is without the content being locked behind ludicrous SP walls. Reasonable skill book costs are fine, reasonable production costs, etc., but the game is undermining its own feature list by implying that you can do anything, then shutting it behind paywalls, essentially. You Offered This study to back up your claims yes, It clearly states :
A primary goal of most MMORPGs is to acquire objects to exert control over the character and the virtual world. However, because some character classes(A) or skill sets(B) can easily defeat characters of other classes or skills in many MMORPGs, developers should consider a skill-point character development system over a class-based system to balance play and to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win.
A- Mage / warrior / monk / priest / rogue / warlock B- Skillsets / per each character above
in Mop - a locks rotation of immoliate / incinerate / conflagerate until burning embers built up for free chaos bolts - never run out of mana and could cast whilst moving, Nothing could outdps them in raids or dungeons OP against all other classes.
The skillpoint progression system means all players are equal, we dont have independent classes or skillsets we all have access to the whole enviroment, all ships all modules.
2. Secondary Control over the Character. Scon1: I have invested a great deal of time in managing my character.
It doesnt say in your study ive been playing a week wheres my titan. It states Scon1
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
483
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 17:19:32 -
[5124] - Quote
Dror wrote:but the game is undermining its own feature list by implying that you can do anything, then shutting it behind paywalls, essentially. It's what CCP trying to do now. They know SPs system has flaws. They figured more money can be earn this way, so why change the system? Just make players pay more, and there are players who are willing to pay more. It's all about the price.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
494
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 17:30:56 -
[5125] - Quote
What the ****. Why are people comparing eve to other games and especially WoW. There was a time when CCP and Eve players used to pride ourselves in being different from other games. We were growing non stop when we focused on eve. We stopped growing when CCP started looking at other MMOs and copying their decisions. If you like wow so much go play WoW. End of story. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
113
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 17:32:45 -
[5126] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Just make players pay more, and there are players who are willing to pay more. It's all about the price. Any money to keep a crown. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
323
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 18:28:13 -
[5127] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Just make players pay more, and there are players who are willing to pay more. It's all about the price. Any money to keep a crown.
You DO realise that magically adding skill points isn't somehow magically going to transform your hilarious clown losses and lol fits (which show zero understanding on the game) and turn them into wins, right? Or that of your corp or alliance for that matter. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
113
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 18:38:44 -
[5128] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:General Lootit wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Just make players pay more, and there are players who are willing to pay more. It's all about the price. Any money to keep a crown. You DO realise that magically adding skill points isn't somehow magically going to transform your hilarious clown losses and lol fits (which show zero understanding on the game) and turn them into wins, right? I need them for PvE. I'm just wonder how experienced player afraid of "catching up" noobs. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
485
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 18:49:51 -
[5129] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:I need them for PvE. I'm just wonder how experienced player afraid of "catching up" noobs. Experienced players don't afraid catching up noobs, experienced players afraid this feature will change EvE into just common microtransaction MMO, just like there are so many others on the market.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
324
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 18:51:06 -
[5130] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:General Lootit wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Just make players pay more, and there are players who are willing to pay more. It's all about the price. Any money to keep a crown. You DO realise that magically adding skill points isn't somehow magically going to transform your hilarious clown losses and lol fits (which show zero understanding on the game) and turn them into wins, right? I need them for PvE. I'm just wonder how experienced player afraid of "catching up" noobs.
We're not because SP isn't that important. that's the whole fcking point of this whole discussion. Clueless clowns asking for something they don't understand, in a game they don't understand, expecting that it'll help them because being max lvl and full of purplez helped them so much in WOW.
We're not going to have uninformed noobs, like you, dictate that this game should change to a mindset you're so used to in other games. Here's a top tip: if you can't grasp how EVE works, which in and of itself is fine as a newbie, then either you accept that and try to learn or you just accept that it's not to your liking and fck off to some MMO that is more in line with what the average clown looks for.
People who have no understanding on a subject should probably stay away from discussing it.
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
113
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 18:56:07 -
[5131] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:General Lootit wrote:I need them for PvE. I'm just wonder how experienced player afraid of "catching up" noobs. Experienced players don't afraid catching up noobs, experienced players afraid this feature will change EvE into just common microtransaction MMO, just like there are so many others on the market.
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Game rules should be equal for everybody. Imagine rookies gets only queens instead of every other and pieces on chess board. Why? Because they are rookies? If I want to change from geddon to ceptor I must pay more (currency is meaningless here) to do this than new player. An option is created with unequal access to it. What next? Players to 1 year will have discount on subs, while I'll be paying twice?
Jeremiah Saken wrote:is bull****. It's not for everyone, for low SPs players only. Word isn't a bird. Did you knew that? Song lied to you |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
113
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 19:08:12 -
[5132] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:General Lootit wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:General Lootit wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Just make players pay more, and there are players who are willing to pay more. It's all about the price. Any money to keep a crown. You DO realise that magically adding skill points isn't somehow magically going to transform your hilarious clown losses and lol fits (which show zero understanding on the game) and turn them into wins, right? I need them for PvE. I'm just wonder how experienced player afraid of "catching up" noobs. We're not because SP isn't that important. that's the whole fcking point of this whole discussion. Clueless clowns asking for something they don't understand, in a game they don't understand, expecting that it'll help them because being max lvl and full of purplez helped them so much in WOW. We're not going to have uninformed noobs, like you, dictate that this game should change to a mindset you're so used to in other games. Here's a top tip: if you can't grasp how EVE works, which in and of itself is fine as a newbie, then either you accept that and try to learn or you just accept that it's not to your liking and fck off to some MMO that is more in line with what the average clown looks for. People who have no understanding on a subject should probably stay away from discussing it. Sorry but I have no PhD in MMO subject. Dror did. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3065
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 20:00:41 -
[5133] - Quote
If giving new players a helping hand is so important, (and it is not the case that CCP is making a money grab) then offer let them start with enough skill points to fly say, a T1 Frigate with max skills.
Those with an overweaning sense of entitlemant will be pleased by such generosity, whilst those who are more likely to stick with the game will decline the offer.
This is not a signature.
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
489
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 20:32:09 -
[5134] - Quote
General Lootit wrote: Word isn't a bird. Did you knew that? Song lied to you
You must stop writing words, so many quotes, you don't understand it still.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
53
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 20:38:32 -
[5135] - Quote
Counting down the days until this amazing idea is implemented and it doesn't destroy eve like all you f'ing bittervets claim, so those of us that want eve to grow can point back to this stupidly long thread and say "told ya so" |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
113
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 20:40:06 -
[5136] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:General Lootit wrote: Word isn't a bird. Did you knew that? Song lied to you
You must stop writing words, so many quotes, you don't understand it still. If you see how some noob catching you up - don't worry it's just a bad dream. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
59
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 20:47:43 -
[5137] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:These people speaking that they want all in EvE now why dont you ask CCP seagull to give you EvE Offline - single player and use the Tilde command /Giveall
There's a reason no such thing comes in online games, the shelf life after you blitz'd through it in 90 mins is Zero. After you clean yourself up from all the vomit you've spewed please elaborate on this. There are a few people here who think they should have access to everything in game without effort and i mean it all, remove the skillpoint system it only serves to spoil the game, fly titans marauders anything. I was suggesting they find a single player game and use the console command, tilde key ? and when they have everything without effort how boring it is very quickly. If you couldnt be arsed to read the whole thing Dror's been spouting for almost a week, you would understand my comments to him. Just clarifying, "without effort" is without the content being locked behind ludicrous SP walls. Reasonable skill book costs are fine, reasonable production costs, etc., but the game is undermining its own feature list by implying that you can do anything, then shutting it behind paywalls, essentially. You Offered This study to back up your claims yes, It clearly states : A primary goal of most MMORPGs is to acquire objects to exert control over the character and the virtual world. However, because some character classes(A) or skill sets(B) can easily defeat characters of other classes or skills in many MMORPGs, developers should consider a skill-point character development system over a class-based system to balance play and to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win. A- Mage / warrior / monk / priest / rogue / warlock B- Skillsets / per each character above in Mop - a locks rotation of immoliate / incinerate / conflagerate until burning embers built up for free chaos bolts - never run out of mana and could cast whilst moving, Nothing could outdps them in raids or dungeons OP against all other classes. The skillpoint progression system means all players are equal, we dont have independent classes or skillsets we all have access to the whole enviroment, all ships all modules. 2. Secondary Control over the Character. Scon1: I have invested a great deal of time in managing my character.It doesnt say in your study ive been playing a week wheres my titan. It states Scon1 EDIT@Dror Ill tell you something else too, a good 6 month training plan in EvE you can be a damned good tengu pilot, In wow between Cata and MoP i raided at top level for over 20 months and i still never managed to get a full set of top tier Armour with their shite RNG loot rolls with 7 out my my 10 toons. You're trying to say that "a skill points system" (per the study) is "EVE's SP", and that's completely farcical. The WHOLE POINT of that statement is "to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win". Does SP provide that? No. Conversely, does a game like WoW allow equal stats for gear? Yes. "SO, WHAT!?" So, getting in to arena or other PvP is going to rely more on skill than stats. Does that line up with the standard definition of motivation? Yes, per mastery (competence and competitiveness), freedom of choice, and accordance.
Where that contrast ends is where EVE's SP is so amplified from fresh classes and "techs", etc., that getting in to a frigate is much less "meta" and much more "farmable" (to mention nothing of the industry niches and everything else, which being gated makes the game completely shallow for a fresh character). In other words, SP in no manner implies "all players are equal"; and, actually, there are ship classes that are unlocked (as well as further skillsets after maxing some out).
Please stop implying that all characters have equal opportunity, which is obviously inaccurate. A fresh character has some 3% of the ships unlocked.
On control, you're trying to hamfist a statement as some deciding factor (that is, obviously without properly defining it or its relevance). Primary control -- "individuals gain control by altering the environment to correspond to their wishes"; and secondary control -- "individuals alter themselves ('their definitions and understanding') or align with environmental forces". In other words, primarily, potential subs try to master their effect on the game. Where that is shown as implausible (because of low stats, locked ships and items), they have to figure out if they can realign under the SP system. That answer is obviously a huge "no", per what's motivating, how seemingly-limited content effects MMO subs, and what just seems interesting (if it seems OK paying a bunch of money, on top of a sub, for a bunch of stats and unlocks for a sandbox game).
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1688
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Posted - 2015.10.28 21:01:27 -
[5138] - Quote
Dror wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:So hold on, you're quoting a study that explicitly says character progression is good and promotes a skill system over a level system as ideal to justify the idea that a game should not have character progression or a skill system...
It also suggests skill development promotes retention via "lock-in." None of your ideas about retention in relation to eliminating character development actually fall in agreement with the study. This is exactly what we mean by cherry-picking info. Contrasting the equal opportunities of "skill progression" vs "a class system" suggests nothing about the validity of character progression as a defining game mechanic. You're pulling that one out of nowhere, it seems. If the point of a skill-based system over class-based is providing equal opportunity to win a battle, that shuts out SP. "Lock-in" is an inherent phenomena because of the cost of switching games, including monetarily and socially. Your ability to read is underwhelming.. and the very definition of cherry-picking. I'm pulling it right out of the report you cited, which never spoke of not having character development as a positive. The only thing it did was point to a system like eve's as preferential. If the creators of the report intended to convey the idea that progression-less systems were preferential, which is the basis of your claim, you'd think they would actually state that.
So we still have a document that only states EvE's approach is preferential to the other contrasted approach and a no progression system is not even considered. That's not cherry picking. That's literally comparing your point with the whole context of the paper and seeing that it effectively and explicitly endorses skill-point based character progression and doesn't advocate 0 progression.
And yes, lock in is the cost of switching games, including lost progress. Nothing stated was inaccurate, just you again fishing for technicalities and ignoring and downplaying obviously promoted ideas in the paper that don't fit your narrative.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1689
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 21:16:24 -
[5139] - Quote
Dror wrote:You're trying to say that "a skill points system" (per the study) is "EVE's SP", and that's completely farcical. The WHOLE POINT of that statement is "to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win". Does SP provide that? No. Conversely, does a game like WoW allow equal stats for gear? Yes. "SO, WHAT!?" So, getting in to arena or other PvP is going to rely more on skill than stats. Does that line up with the standard definition of motivation? Yes, per mastery (competence and competitiveness), freedom of choice, and accordance.
Where that contrast ends is where EVE's SP is so amplified from fresh classes and "techs", etc., that getting in to a frigate is much less "meta" and much more "farmable" (to mention nothing of the industry niches and everything else, which being gated makes the game completely shallow for a fresh character). In other words, SP in no manner implies "all players are equal"; and, actually, there are ship classes that are unlocked (as well as further skillsets after maxing some out).
Please stop implying that all characters have equal opportunity, which is obviously inaccurate. A fresh character has some 3% of the ships unlocked.
On control, you're trying to hamfist a statement as some deciding factor (that is, obviously without properly defining it or its relevance). Primary control -- "individuals gain control by altering the environment to correspond to their wishes"; and secondary control -- "individuals alter themselves ('their definitions and understanding') or align with environmental forces". In other words, primarily, potential subs try to master their effect on the game. Where that is shown as implausible (because of low stats, locked ships and items), they have to figure out if they can realign under the SP system. That answer is obviously a huge "no", per what's motivating, how seemingly-limited content effects MMO subs, and what just seems interesting (if it seems OK paying a bunch of money, on top of a sub, for a bunch of stats and unlocks for a sandbox game). Relevant section:
"because some character classes or skill sets can easily defeat characters of other classes or skills in many MMORPGs, developers should consider a skill-point character development system over a class-based system to balance play and to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win"
Fundamentally EvE's SP system provides greater chances to win at low SP than other progression systems promoting all-around level based improvements to a character. Further, skill based progression, in order to actually be progression, MUST convey advantages.
Even more fundamentally it says "any character class engaged in combat to win." Note that it does not say any character tenure to win, nor any player in any specific situation, though as stated EvE does a decent job here, and further doesn't state tenured players should have no advantages over new ones. Rather, since every ship class has comparative advantages and disadvantages, and we can effectively substitute ship classes for character classes, yes, the statement made is wholly satisfied by EvE's SP system, including the potential to win. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 21:31:15 -
[5140] - Quote
Dror wrote:You're trying to say that "a skill points system" (per the study) is "EVE's SP", and that's completely farcical. The WHOLE POINT of that statement is "to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win". Does SP provide that? No. Conversely, does a game like WoW allow equal stats for gear? Yes. "SO, WHAT!?" So, getting in to arena or other PvP is going to rely more on skill than stats. Does that line up with the standard definition of motivation? Yes, per mastery (competence and competitiveness), freedom of choice, and accordance.
Where that contrast ends is where EVE's SP is so amplified from fresh classes and "techs", etc., that getting in to a frigate is much less "meta" and much more "farmable" (to mention nothing of the industry niches and everything else, which being gated makes the game completely shallow for a fresh character). In other words, SP in no manner implies "all players are equal"; and, actually, there are ship classes that are unlocked (as well as further skillsets after maxing some out).
Please stop implying that all characters have equal opportunity, which is obviously inaccurate. A fresh character has some 3% of the ships unlocked.
On control, you're trying to hamfist a statement as some deciding factor (that is, obviously without properly defining it or its relevance). Primary control -- "individuals gain control by altering the environment to correspond to their wishes"; and secondary control -- "individuals alter themselves ('their definitions and understanding') or align with environmental forces". In other words, primarily, potential subs try to master their effect on the game. Where that is shown as implausible (because of low stats, locked ships and items), they have to figure out if they can realign under the SP system. That answer is obviously a huge "no", per what's motivating, how seemingly-limited content effects MMO subs, and what just seems interesting (if it seems OK paying a bunch of money, on top of a sub, for a bunch of stats and unlocks for a sandbox game). I didnt infer it, the study states a skillpoint model is more desirable than a class based model to which it is FACT. if 1000 people subbed to WoW now logging on all times of day and night within a week they would all be of Varying levels if they didnt log on they dont advance .FACT If the same 1000 people subbed to EvE now logging once setting the same training program and came back at the end of the month they would all be able to fly the Svipul FACT - there is where EvE and its skillpoint training outclasses by leveling and also gives progression without interaction, They would all be flying round equally equpped to pvp or pve. You cant blame the length of time a game has been launched, by how its perceived.
The equal opportunities come from the fact a class based model as stated - Warlock - Skillset A Monk - Skillset B if the lock is OP compared to a monk its not a personal skill advantage its a class advantage the warlock has from the mechanics of the game. We on the other hand are all capsuleers / with the same time investment we all fly the same ships the same modules we can enter everywhere in eve nothing is out of bounds unwise maybe but not locked content. Even when you reach level 100 in WoW you cant then enter top tier dungeons and raids theyre locked out until you then drip feed up the Ilvl scale.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 22:04:26 -
[5141] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I'm pulling it right out of the report you cited, which never spoke of not having character development as a positive. The only thing it did was point to a system like eve's as preferential. If the creators of the report intended to convey the idea that progression-less systems were preferential, which is the basis of your claim, you'd think they would actually state that.
So we still have a document that only states EvE's approach is preferential to the other contrasted approach and a no progression system is not even considered. That's not cherry picking. That's literally comparing your point with the whole context of the paper and seeing that it effectively and explicitly endorses skill-point based character progression and doesn't advocate 0 progression.
And yes, lock in is the cost of switching games, including lost progress. Nothing stated was inaccurate, just you again fishing for technicalities and ignoring and downplaying obviously promoted ideas in the paper that don't fit your narrative.
Black and white fallacy (for multiple points). "Not citing the idea of XP/SP-less gameplay" is no determiner of validity for that idea at all (it's just unmentioned). Furthermore, claiming that SP provides equal opportunity for a win (including from reshipping to appropriate tools) is ludicrous. A low-SP frigate character (experience irrelevant) vs. an up-shipped.. T3C or whatever is no contest.
Opportunity at low SP vs. low XP levels is irrelevant. The XP characters can be maxed before SP characters (again, skill disregarded) can be competitive in the diversity of the sandbox. "Skill progression", though, can actually suggest no stat advantage, because those points could be just more options instead of more powerful options. Undermining SP even further -- "In addition [to equal opportunity to win], developers should provide equal incentives for players to engage in one-on-one combat, a large-scale siege of a castle, or large-scale battles for territory." That's explicitly saying, translated through this game's design, that challenging sov and whatever else should be, per character, equally convenient. Therefore, a group of newbies should have the toolset on par of an equal group of veterans. It's science.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 22:58:43 -
[5142] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:
CCP seems to require continued explaining that killing the golden goose will get them a juicy dinner for one night but is, on the whole, a moronically dumb thing to do. Some times they need to be told to wear their dunce hat and be put in the corner of the room for a bit, this is one of those times.
QFT |
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 23:01:45 -
[5143] - Quote
ISD Decoy wrote:I have removed a couple off-topic posts and those quoting them.
Good for you. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1691
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 00:22:20 -
[5144] - Quote
Dror wrote:Black and white fallacy (for multiple points). "Not citing the idea of XP/SP-less gameplay" is no determiner of validity for that idea at all (it's just unmentioned). Furthermore, claiming that SP provides equal opportunity for a win (including from reshipping to appropriate tools) is ludicrous. A low-SP frigate character (experience irrelevant) vs. an up-shipped.. T3C or whatever is no contest. There was no need to claim SP provided equal chance for victory. There was no statement that there should be equal chance for victory between differing tenures of player. Only between classes, which a skill based system effectively eliminates as a concept at the character level. Hence the advocacy of a skill-point based system.
And we're not dealing with a black and white fallacy, but a black and white fact. They either did or didn't address and advocate for a progression-less system. They chose not to. Thus, whether they think it has merit or not is not something that can be specifically inferred. As such, it's NOT evidence of your point. Similarly they either did or didn't advocate a skill-point based system, the range of such systems aside, and concluded it superior. We can infer things from either omission or lack thereof, but either way the fact of NOT advocating a flat system is just that, fact.
It makes your claim of advocacy and evidence for such a system also false, as they literally linked one system to the idea of control and ownership over another.
Dror wrote:Opportunity at low SP vs. low XP levels is irrelevant. The XP characters can be maxed before SP characters (again, skill disregarded) can be competitive in the diversity of the sandbox. "Skill progression", though, can actually suggest no stat advantage, because those points could be just more options instead of more powerful options. Undermining SP even further -- "In addition [to equal opportunity to win], developers should provide equal incentives for players to engage in one-on-one combat, a large-scale siege of a castle, or large-scale battles for territory." That's explicitly saying, translated through this game's design, that challenging sov and whatever else should be, per character, equally convenient. Therefore, a group of newbies should have the toolset on par of an equal group of veterans. It's science. You're interpretation doesn't match the statement at all. Equal incentive != equal capability. Incentive drives the desire to participate, but does not define the means of doing so and thus in no way mandates or even suggests equal access.
Nothing there says it should be "equally convenient." It's not science; it's again you providing selective interpretation. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
208
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 02:12:20 -
[5145] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:These people speaking that they want all in EvE now why dont you ask CCP seagull to give you EvE Offline - single player and use the Tilde command /Giveall
There's a reason no such thing comes in online games, the shelf life after you blitz'd through it in 90 mins is Zero. After you clean yourself up from all the vomit you've spewed please elaborate on this.
Reported for trolling!
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
208
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 02:17:02 -
[5146] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Suede wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:So CCP, you had more than a week to think it all over. I'm sure that by now a decision is made or a least a consensus is reached, what is it going to be? Stay true to a core concept of EVE or sell out. if it is more Money for CCP I am sure they will go head and do it, CCP making money come before there player base, as someone as to buy the milk They did well before, so not an excuse. This thread was merely a PR exercise, to make the players feel involved and to fulfil their promise to the CSM. While there may be a few changes here and there, (which is normal anyway) it was actually already a done deal.
If that's true , then it's going to be sad to see this game reduce to such a low level.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
60
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Posted - 2015.10.29 02:38:16 -
[5147] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:Black and white fallacy (for multiple points). "Not citing the idea of XP/SP-less gameplay" is no determiner of validity for that idea at all (it's just unmentioned). Furthermore, claiming that SP provides equal opportunity for a win (including from reshipping to appropriate tools) is ludicrous. A low-SP frigate character (experience irrelevant) vs. an up-shipped.. T3C or whatever is no contest. There was no need to claim SP provided equal chance for victory. There was no statement that there should be equal chance for victory between differing tenures of player. Only between classes, which a skill based system effectively eliminates as a concept at the character level. Hence the advocacy of a skill-point based system. And we're not dealing with a black and white fallacy, but a black and white fact. They either did or didn't address and advocate for a progression-less system. They chose not to. Thus, whether they think it has merit or not is not something that can be specifically inferred. As such, it's NOT evidence of your point. Similarly they either did or didn't advocate a skill-point based system, the range of such systems aside, and concluded it superior. We can infer things from either omission or lack thereof, but either way the fact of NOT advocating a flat system is just that, fact. It makes your claim of advocacy and evidence for such a system also false, as they literally linked one system to the idea of control and ownership over another. Dror wrote:Opportunity at low SP vs. low XP levels is irrelevant. The XP characters can be maxed before SP characters (again, skill disregarded) can be competitive in the diversity of the sandbox. "Skill progression", though, can actually suggest no stat advantage, because those points could be just more options instead of more powerful options. Undermining SP even further -- "In addition [to equal opportunity to win], developers should provide equal incentives for players to engage in one-on-one combat, a large-scale siege of a castle, or large-scale battles for territory." That's explicitly saying, translated through this game's design, that challenging sov and whatever else should be, per character, equally convenient. Therefore, a group of newbies should have the toolset on par of an equal group of veterans. It's science. You're interpretation doesn't match the statement at all. Equal incentive != equal capability. Incentive drives the desire to participate, but does not define the means of doing so and thus in no way mandates or even suggests equal access. Nothing there says it should be "equally convenient." It's not science; it's again you providing selective interpretation. Why would they say to give equal opportunity for any class to win!? What plays a character class? The player -- so, the player should be able to win. (For a deep game, that can imply switching out toolsets, because there are inherent counters in games.) Why? Because, as the study specifiies, feeling competitive ("learning to control their character effectively") should lead to strong psychological ownership of the character. Furthermore, it states that as the primary control -- "affecting the environment to their wishes". That lines up perfectly with the standard intrinsic motivation definition.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1691
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 03:11:43 -
[5148] - Quote
Dror wrote:Why would they say to give equal opportunity for any class to win!? What plays a character class? The player -- so, the player should be able to win. (For a deep game, that can imply switching out toolsets, because there are inherent counters in games.) Why? Because, as the study specifiies, feeling competitive ("learning to control their character effectively") should lead to strong psychological ownership of the character. Furthermore, it states that as the primary control -- "affecting the environment to their wishes". That lines up perfectly with the standard intrinsic motivation definition. Why would they say it? Maybe because they are contrasting a class/level system to a skill-point system and how the former creates potential disadvantages in general balance intrinsic to the character where the latter tends to avoid the issue.
That's a concept of comparative balance which leads to being able to invest in single character development to work towards a variety of roles and avoid inherent and permanent poor match-ups with no outs at the whims of class limits and their balance.
Neither system creates a system of direct and consistent equality or lack of progression.
And still no, it does not imply every player is at equal odds of winning, merely that the class alone is not a strong determinant. That's all. That still doesn't exclude other factors of a character from making encounters uneven. The report doesn't even attempt to do that. Thus the players are at no obligation to be made totally equal by any reasoning presented. That argument simply isn't made.
And learning to control their character effectively mandates no access to any specific tool, but rather competence with the tools you have. Competitiveness comes from competence, not universal access. And control of the environment, so far as it actually exists and further with all other cooperative structures that may be working against you, extends from competence and cooperation, neither of which mandate specific tool sets for any specific player (but socially benefits from differing skill sets, something you would eliminate).
Everything lines up as is, you just keep erroneously conflating the idea of piloting cap ships day 1 with being the sole measure of character control. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 03:20:21 -
[5149] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:Why would they say to give equal opportunity for any class to win!? What plays a character class? The player -- so, the player should be able to win. (For a deep game, that can imply switching out toolsets, because there are inherent counters in games.) Why? Because, as the study specifiies, feeling competitive ("learning to control their character effectively") should lead to strong psychological ownership of the character. Furthermore, it states that as the primary control -- "affecting the environment to their wishes". That lines up perfectly with the standard intrinsic motivation definition. Why would they say it? Maybe because they are contrasting a class/level system to a skill-point system and how the former creates potential disadvantages in general balance intrinsic to the character where the latter tends to avoid the issue. That's a concept of comparative balance which leads to being able to invest in single character development to work towards a variety of roles and avoid inherent and permanent poor match-ups with no outs at the whims of class limits and their balance. Neither system creates a system of direct and consistent equality or lack of progression. And still no, it does not imply every player is at equal odds of winning, merely that the class alone is not a strong determinant. That's all. That still doesn't exclude other factors of a character from making encounters uneven. The report doesn't even attempt to do that. Thus the players are at no obligation to be made totally equal by any reasoning presented. That argument simply isn't made. And learning to control their character effectively mandates no access to any specific tool, but rather competence with the tools you have. Competitiveness comes from competence, not universal access. And control of the environment, so far as it actually exists and further with all other cooperative structures that may be working against you, extends from competence and cooperation, neither of which mandate specific tool sets for any specific player (but socially benefits from differing skill sets, something you would eliminate). Everything lines up as is, you just keep erroneously conflating the idea of piloting cap ships day 1 with being the sole measure of character control. That whole post is purely an inability to correlate multiple points in the study cohesively. It's a complete non-reply -- "nuh uh!"
There's no evidence that the skill point system they're discussing has anything to do with the SP mechanic. It's on the claim to prove there is.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1691
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 03:42:17 -
[5150] - Quote
Dror wrote:That whole post is purely an inability to correlate multiple points in the study cohesively. It's a complete non-reply -- "nuh uh!"
There's no evidence that the skill point system they're discussing has anything to do with the SP mechanic. It's on the claim to prove there is. I just related all the points for you in a coherent manner. All you gave was this.
You just did the very thing you accused me of doing when what I did was directly address the issues with concepts you presented and the problems with what you tried to use as evidence.
Tempted as I am to reciprocate such a lazy response, regarding comparing skill systems, you haven't defined how EvE's might differ in any meaningful way for the argument save suggesting one that there be no lockouts, only added efficiencies, which still falls against the concept of "equal opportunity for a win" between all players.
So lets say that we do go that route and a new player decides to just in a carrier with reduced cap, fitting, damage output, repair capacity, hit points, agility, jump capacity, module effectiveness and game knowledge to top it all off. This helps them how? Their ability to affect their environment from the frigate was better due to the lack of compounding differences between the tools in use over the multiple ship size increases alongside specialized functions.
So what form of an actual skill system maintains the advantages of skills while not compounding the differences between having them ant not having them when you get into deeper mechanics? |
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
60
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Posted - 2015.10.29 03:56:21 -
[5151] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:That whole post is purely an inability to correlate multiple points in the study cohesively. It's a complete non-reply -- "nuh uh!"
There's no evidence that the skill point system they're discussing has anything to do with the SP mechanic. It's on the claim to prove there is. I just related all the points for you in a coherent manner. All you gave was this. You just did the very thing you accused me of doing when what I did was directly address the issues with concepts you presented and the problems with what you tried to use as evidence. Tempted as I am to reciprocate such a lazy response, regarding comparing skill systems, you haven't defined how EvE's might differ in any meaningful way for the argument save suggesting one that there be no lockouts, only added efficiencies, which still falls against the concept of "equal opportunity for a win" between all players. So lets say that we do go that route and a new player decides to just in a carrier with reduced cap, fitting, damage output, repair capacity, hit points, agility, jump capacity, module effectiveness and game knowledge to top it all off. This helps them how? Their ability to affect their environment from the frigate was better due to the lack of compounding differences between the tools in use over the multiple ship size increases alongside specialized functions. So what form of an actual skill system maintains the advantages of skills while not compounding the differences between having them ant not having them when you get into deeper mechanics? The point is that its non-coherent.
It's trying to claim "skill points" as equal opportunity to win (by contrasting that a "class" system undermines skillfulness with counters) and simultaneously trying to claim that locking all of the options behind SP promotes winning.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1691
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 04:06:37 -
[5152] - Quote
Dror wrote:The point is that its non-coherent.
It's trying to claim skill points as equal opportunity to win (by contrasting that a "class" system undermines skillfulness with counters) and simultaneously trying to claim that locking all of the options behind SP promotes winning. No, that wasn't the claim. The claim was "it does not imply every player is at equal odds of winning, merely that the class alone is not a strong determinant. That's all. That still doesn't exclude other factors of a character from making encounters uneven."
How you managed to turn "it does not imply every player is at equal odds of winning" into "It's trying to claim skill points as equal opportunity to win" is something I cannot explain.
You keep conflating the issue of avoiding class based dominance through imbalance with endorsement of a 0 advantage landscape and claiming a statement that said the former does the latter. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 04:25:02 -
[5153] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:The point is that its non-coherent.
It's trying to claim skill points as equal opportunity to win (by contrasting that a "class" system undermines skillfulness with counters) and simultaneously trying to claim that locking all of the options behind SP promotes winning. No, that wasn't the claim. The claim was "it does not imply every player is at equal odds of winning, merely that the class alone is not a strong determinant. That's all. That still doesn't exclude other factors of a character from making encounters uneven." How you managed to turn "it does not imply every player is at equal odds of winning" into "It's trying to claim skill points as equal opportunity to win" is something I cannot explain. You keep conflating the issue of avoiding class based dominance through imbalance with endorsement of a 0 advantage landscape and claiming a statement that said the former does the latter. How does the study set up "character control" as loss avoidance and the implication here become that its OK to lose (conversely to the whole discussion being about a win)?
It's a baseless claim because of the implication that winning is about character-class plausibility but none so for individual characters. The very study says, "Yee argued that MMORPG players usually play characters that are able to alter the game environment and control the flow of a fight so that their character becomes the winner."
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1691
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 04:46:08 -
[5154] - Quote
Dror wrote:How does the study set up "character control" as loss avoidance and the implication here become that its OK to lose (conversely to the whole discussion being about a win)?
It's a baseless claim because of the implication that winning is about character-class plausibility but none so for individual characters. The very study says, "Yee argued that MMORPG players usually play characters that are able to alter the game environment and control the flow of a fight so that their character becomes the winner." Where is character control set up as loss avoidance, also how does that not conflict with the definition of "secondary control" in the paper as effectively coping with loss and/or the environment and choosing goals according to ones capabilities (which is a form of control advocated by the report as well)?
Also you've turned Yee's words into a paradox. Somehow each player is supposed to be the determinant of an encounter? This includes the impossibility created when characters desire conflict? Everyone can't be a winner when players compete. Everyone can't have their influence on a limited environment.
Edit: And actually one of EvE's fundaments goes beyond simply saying it's ok to lose, it says you WILL sometimes lose and advises to be prepared for it (secondary control again). |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 05:00:18 -
[5155] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dror wrote:How does the study set up "character control" as loss avoidance and the implication here become that its OK to lose (conversely to the whole discussion being about a win)?
It's a baseless claim because of the implication that winning is about character-class plausibility but none so for individual characters. The very study says, "Yee argued that MMORPG players usually play characters that are able to alter the game environment and control the flow of a fight so that their character becomes the winner." Where is character control set up as loss avoidance, also how does that not conflict with the definition of "secondary control" in the paper as effectively coping with loss and/or the environment and choosing goals according to ones capabilities (which is a form of control advocated by the report as well)? Also you've turned Yee's words into a paradox. Somehow each player is supposed to be the determinant of an encounter? This includes the impossibility created when characters desire conflict? Everyone can't be a winner when players compete. Everyone can't have their influence on a limited environment. Edit: And actually one of EvE's fundaments goes beyond simply saying it's ok to lose, it says you WILL sometimes lose and advises to be prepared for it (secondary control again). Players can only avoid loss if they have the tools.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 08:46:56 -
[5156] - Quote
Dror wrote:Why would they say to give equal opportunity for any class to win!? What plays a character class? The player -- so, the player should be able to win. (For a deep game, that can imply switching out toolsets, because there are inherent counters in games.) Why? Because, as the study specifiies, feeling competitive ("learning to control their character effectively") should lead to strong psychological ownership of the character. Furthermore, it states that as the primary control -- "affecting the environment to their wishes". That lines up perfectly with the standard intrinsic motivation definition. That is the most blantent misrepresentation of a statement you've pulled yet:
Why would they say to give equal opportunity for any class to win!? What plays a character class? The player
Equal opportunity meaning that there is no game mechanic favouring one class specialization over another e.g. Warlock being overpowered by its current patch / expasion to any other class in game, Has no golden spell or golden ammo.
When individuals experience a reduction in primary control, they may either withdraw (abandon the MMORPG and identify alternative goals) or they may invest in secondary control. To ensure a fair gaming environment, MMORPGs run in real time with a low level of live control [79], and players may therefore seek greater interpretive (secondary) control. Because secondary control is characterized by persistent behavior [69], by definition MMORPG players display secondary control behavior
2. Secondary Control over the Character Scon1: I have invested a great deal of time in managing my character. Scon2: I spend a great deal of time as my character. Scon3: I frequently visit the game to manage my character.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 12:30:22 -
[5157] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Equal opportunity meaning that there is no game mechanic favouring one class specialization over another e.g. Warlock being overpowered by its current patch / expansion to any other class in game, Has no golden spell or golden ammo. Seems pretty accurate. What's the problem?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
122
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 12:38:00 -
[5158] - Quote
I'm so mad at you CCP! They just canceled out. All of you, are you happy&!
Pinky Bear
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Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
124
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 12:40:10 -
[5159] - Quote
What I see happening with a system like is described in the blog is a sudden blast of 100's of 3.3m SP gank pilots that go to -10 sec status then get biomassed.
Counterproposal: Instead of an instant reward of SP, make it a 2x training speed til you use up the purchased bonus. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 12:53:19 -
[5160] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Equal opportunity meaning that there is no game mechanic favouring one class specialization over another e.g. Warlock being overpowered by its current patch / expansion to any other class in game, Has no golden spell or golden ammo. Seems pretty accurate. What's the problem? Yes my statement is, you put :
Dror wrote:Why would they say to give equal opportunity for any class to win!? What plays a character class? The player -- so, the player should be able to win Thats not the place when the class is unbalanced, you'll always find in a class based games that one will be better than the rest between expansions and patches. When a game offers only one class you don't have that problem. Which leads to me your next proclamation you stated how are newbies to challenge sov ? Is this someone new to the game. ??
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
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Croc Evil
Croc's Family Business Schizophrenic Macro Hive
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 13:15:08 -
[5161] - Quote
Mhari Dson wrote:What I see happening with a system like is described in the blog is a sudden blast of 100's of 3.3m SP gank pilots that go to -10 sec status then get biomassed.
Counterproposal: Instead of an instant reward of SP, make it a 2x training speed til you use up the purchased bonus.
You can do this now with PLEX system just fine with just a bit more effort:
- 3 characters per account
- 1 character used for ganking
- 2 other characters on skill training for ganking (2 PLEXes to run such account)
- multiple accounts possible
- destroy used gank character on any account where other character finished training, create new character ...
So if real money price of skill trading tools is set higher than PLEX/account schema above then I don't see a problem with skill trading regarding gank characters |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 13:22:24 -
[5162] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Equal opportunity meaning that there is no game mechanic favouring one class specialization over another e.g. Warlock being overpowered by its current patch / expansion to any other class in game, Has no golden spell or golden ammo. Seems pretty accurate. What's the problem? Yes my statement is, you put : Dror wrote:Why would they say to give equal opportunity for any class to win!? What plays a character class? The player -- so, the player should be able to win Thats not the place when the class is unbalanced, you'll always find in a class based games that one will be better than the rest between expansions and patches. When a game offers only one class you don't have that problem. Which leads to me your next proclamation you stated how are newbies to challenge sov ? Is this someone new to the game. ?? Yes, a huge portion of the study discusses that any player should be able to win in battle, and that's because the very definition of psychological ownership and control is how effective they are.
So, obviously, there's no discrepancy with what I'm saying about "classes winning because the character wins". That's the whole idea of tuning classes or skills for equal opportunity.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 13:50:04 -
[5163] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Equal opportunity meaning that there is no game mechanic favouring one class specialization over another e.g. Warlock being overpowered by its current patch / expansion to any other class in game, Has no golden spell or golden ammo. Seems pretty accurate. What's the problem? Yes my statement is, you put : Dror wrote:Why would they say to give equal opportunity for any class to win!? What plays a character class? The player -- so, the player should be able to win Thats not the place when the class is unbalanced, you'll always find in a class based games that one will be better than the rest between expansions and patches. When a game offers only one class you don't have that problem. Which leads to me your next proclamation you stated how are newbies to challenge sov ? Is this someone new to the game. ?? Yes, a huge portion of the study discusses that any player should be able to win in battle, and that's because the very definition of psychological ownership and control is how effective they are. So, obviously, there's no discrepancy with what I'm saying about "classes winning because the character wins". That's the whole idea of tuning classes or skills for equal opportunity.
To ensure a fair gaming environment, MMORPGs run in real time with a low level of live control [79], and players may therefore seek greater interpretive (secondary) control. Because secondary control is characterized by persistent behavior [69], by definition MMORPG players display secondary control behavior
2. Secondary Control over the Character Scon1: I have invested a great deal of time in managing my character. Scon2: I spend a great deal of time as my character. Scon3: I frequently visit the game to manage my character.
Also : you never answered - you stated how are newbies to challenge sov ?Newbie -newplayer
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 14:18:44 -
[5164] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Yes, a huge portion of the study discusses that any player should be able to win in battle, and that's because the very definition of psychological ownership and control is how effective they are.
So, obviously, there's no discrepancy with what I'm saying about "classes winning because the character wins". That's the whole idea of tuning classes or skills for equal opportunity. To ensure a fair gaming environment, MMORPGs run in real time with a low level of live control [79], and players may therefore seek greater interpretive (secondary) control. Because secondary control is characterized by persistent behavior [69], by definition MMORPG players display secondary control behavior2. Secondary Control over the Character Scon1: I have invested a great deal of time in managing my character. Scon2: I spend a great deal of time as my character. Scon3: I frequently visit the game to manage my character. Also : you never answered - you stated how are newbies to challenge sov ?Newbie -newplayer So seeing as the study states long term time investment ,you say new, do you want to go with completely new to both games or that theyre stating minimum of 10 to 12 months old ?? That italicized quote is discussing devs of MMORPGs. The original point is still valid.
Edit: Link
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 15:03:14 -
[5165] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Yes, a huge portion of the study discusses that any player should be able to win in battle, and that's because the very definition of psychological ownership and control is how effective they are.
So, obviously, there's no discrepancy with what I'm saying about "classes winning because the character wins". That's the whole idea of tuning classes or skills for equal opportunity. To ensure a fair gaming environment, MMORPGs run in real time with a low level of live control [79], and players may therefore seek greater interpretive (secondary) control. Because secondary control is characterized by persistent behavior [69], by definition MMORPG players display secondary control behavior2. Secondary Control over the Character Scon1: I have invested a great deal of time in managing my character. Scon2: I spend a great deal of time as my character. Scon3: I frequently visit the game to manage my character. Also : you never answered - you stated how are newbies to challenge sov ?Newbie -newplayer So seeing as the study states long term time investment ,you say new, do you want to go with completely new to both games or that theyre stating minimum of 10 to 12 months old ?? That italicized quote is discussing devs of MMORPGs. The original point is still valid. Edit: LinkPnP is pen and paper (RPG), and LARP is live action role-playing No its not its in your study have you not read it correctly, Page 13, Ive never even seen that other thing you just offered.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 15:04:16 -
[5166] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Yes, a huge portion of the study discusses that any player should be able to win in battle, and that's because the very definition of psychological ownership and control is how effective they are.
So, obviously, there's no discrepancy with what I'm saying about "classes winning because the character wins". That's the whole idea of tuning classes or skills for equal opportunity. To ensure a fair gaming environment, MMORPGs run in real time with a low level of live control [79], and players may therefore seek greater interpretive (secondary) control. Because secondary control is characterized by persistent behavior [69], by definition MMORPG players display secondary control behavior2. Secondary Control over the Character Scon1: I have invested a great deal of time in managing my character. Scon2: I spend a great deal of time as my character. Scon3: I frequently visit the game to manage my character. Also : you never answered - you stated how are newbies to challenge sov ?Newbie -newplayer So seeing as the study states long term time investment ,you say new, do you want to go with completely new to both games or that theyre stating minimum of 10 to 12 months old ?? That italicized quote is discussing devs of MMORPGs. The original point is still valid. Edit: LinkPnP is pen and paper (RPG), and LARP is live action role-playing No its not its in your study have you not read it correctly, Page 13, Ive never even seen that other thing you just offered. That's the study that [79] is for context.
The previous post is edited for clarification on the other point [69].
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 15:07:07 -
[5167] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Yes, a huge portion of the study discusses that any player should be able to win in battle, and that's because the very definition of psychological ownership and control is how effective they are.
So, obviously, there's no discrepancy with what I'm saying about "classes winning because the character wins". That's the whole idea of tuning classes or skills for equal opportunity. To ensure a fair gaming environment, MMORPGs run in real time with a low level of live control [79], and players may therefore seek greater interpretive (secondary) control. Because secondary control is characterized by persistent behavior [69], by definition MMORPG players display secondary control behavior2. Secondary Control over the Character Scon1: I have invested a great deal of time in managing my character. Scon2: I spend a great deal of time as my character. Scon3: I frequently visit the game to manage my character. Also : you never answered - you stated how are newbies to challenge sov ?Newbie -newplayer So seeing as the study states long term time investment ,you say new, do you want to go with completely new to both games or that theyre stating minimum of 10 to 12 months old ?? That italicized quote is discussing devs of MMORPGs. The original point is still valid. Edit: LinkPnP is pen and paper (RPG), and LARP is live action role-playing No its not its in your study have you not read it correctly, Page 13, Ive never even seen that other thing you just offered. That's the study that [79] is for context. The previous post is edited for clarification on the other point [69]. So your strawman on the study.
Also : you never answered - you stated how are newbies to challenge sov ?Newbie -newplayer
So seeing as the study states long term time investment ,you say new, do you want to go with completely new to both games or that theyre stating minimum of 10 to 12 months old ??
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 15:11:26 -
[5168] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:So your strawman on the study.
Also : you never answered - you stated how are newbies to challenge sov ?Newbie -newplayer
So seeing as the study states long term time investment ,you say new, do you want to go with completely new to both games or that theyre stating minimum of 10 to 12 months old ?? No, there is no strawman. You're trying to quote something without context, simultaneously implying that setting up investment as a game requirement before the player has even invested anything is what's being discussed.
There is no secondary control if there is no character investment yet. If a character has yet to get a capital, they have no investment -- no secondary control. If they have no SP, they have none either.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 15:21:49 -
[5169] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:So your strawman on the study.
Also : you never answered - you stated how are newbies to challenge sov ?Newbie -newplayer
So seeing as the study states long term time investment ,you say new, do you want to go with completely new to both games or that theyre stating minimum of 10 to 12 months old ?? No, there is no strawman. You're trying to quote something without context, simultaneously implying that setting up investment as a game requirement before the player has even invested anything is what's being discussed. There is no secondary control if there is no character investment yet. If a character has yet to get a capital, they have no investment -- no secondary control. If they have no SP, they have none either.
Thats fine then, its ok your were baselining WoW on entering PvP at lvl 100 but if there is no character investment yet its to be done from starting lvl 1 Im also in the process of emailing - Edward J. Garrity on confirmation on if the study was based on a character model with X amount of years play / If they were all new characters created solely for the study / and if we were to compare Game X over Game Y would they both need to be a certain length of time age wise or good to compare at a month old with full interaction and minimum interaction.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 15:25:23 -
[5170] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:So your strawman on the study.
Also : you never answered - you stated how are newbies to challenge sov ?Newbie -newplayer
So seeing as the study states long term time investment ,you say new, do you want to go with completely new to both games or that theyre stating minimum of 10 to 12 months old ?? No, there is no strawman. You're trying to quote something without context, simultaneously implying that setting up investment as a game requirement before the player has even invested anything is what's being discussed. There is no secondary control if there is no character investment yet. If a character has yet to get a capital, they have no investment -- no secondary control. If they have no SP, they have none either. Thats fine then, its ok your were baselining WoW on entering PvP at lvl 100 but if there is no character investment yet its to be done from starting lvl 1 Im also in the process of emailing - Edward J. Garrity on confirmation on if the study was based on a character model with X amount of years play / If they were all new characters created solely for the study / and if we were to compare Game X over Game Y would they both need to be a certain length of time age wise or good to compare at a month old with full interaction and minimum interaction. It already says:
Quote:The 34 females and 139 males who responded had played at least one or more MMORPGs, such as World of Warcraft, EverQuest, EverQuest II, Lineage, Lineage II, Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes/Villains, RuneScape, and Final Fantasy XI; all had at least two monthsGÇÖ playing experience..
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 15:35:59 -
[5171] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:So your strawman on the study.
Also : you never answered - you stated how are newbies to challenge sov ?Newbie -newplayer
So seeing as the study states long term time investment ,you say new, do you want to go with completely new to both games or that theyre stating minimum of 10 to 12 months old ?? No, there is no strawman. You're trying to quote something without context, simultaneously implying that setting up investment as a game requirement before the player has even invested anything is what's being discussed. There is no secondary control if there is no character investment yet. If a character has yet to get a capital, they have no investment -- no secondary control. If they have no SP, they have none either. Thats fine then, its ok your were baselining WoW on entering PvP at lvl 100 but if there is no character investment yet its to be done from starting lvl 1 Im also in the process of emailing - Edward J. Garrity on confirmation on if the study was based on a character model with X amount of years play / If they were all new characters created solely for the study / and if we were to compare Game X over Game Y would they both need to be a certain length of time age wise or good to compare at a month old with full interaction and minimum interaction. It already says: Quote:The 34 females and 139 males who responded had played at least one or more MMORPGs, such as World of Warcraft, EverQuest, EverQuest II, Lineage, Lineage II, Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes/Villains, RuneScape, and Final Fantasy XI; all had at least two monthsGÇÖ playing experience.. yes but when i said previously about any form of comparison you stated that leveling xp was not a valid equation to sp so your reference point was at 100, best to clear it up properly then you can say for definate that all your waffle is just that and if its case by case . if it was everything based on 2 months you wouldnt even be close to your level cap if youve never played the game before let alone be up there playing with the vets in WoW
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 15:43:19 -
[5172] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:It already says: Quote:The 34 females and 139 males who responded had played at least one or more MMORPGs, such as World of Warcraft, EverQuest, EverQuest II, Lineage, Lineage II, Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes/Villains, RuneScape, and Final Fantasy XI; all had at least two monthsGÇÖ playing experience.. yes but when i said previously about any form of comparison you stated that leveling xp was not a valid equation to sp so your reference point was at 100, best to clear it up properly then you can say for definate that all your waffle is just that and if its case by case . if it was everything based on 2 months you wouldnt even be close to your level cap if youve never played the game before let alone be up there playing with the vets in WoW Actually the point was that a level 10 character is irrelevant for PvP tuning. How is leveling progression relevant if the idea is equal opportunity?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 15:52:54 -
[5173] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:It already says: Quote:The 34 females and 139 males who responded had played at least one or more MMORPGs, such as World of Warcraft, EverQuest, EverQuest II, Lineage, Lineage II, Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes/Villains, RuneScape, and Final Fantasy XI; all had at least two monthsGÇÖ playing experience.. yes but when i said previously about any form of comparison you stated that leveling xp was not a valid equation to sp so your reference point was at 100, best to clear it up properly then you can say for definate that all your waffle is just that and if its case by case . if it was everything based on 2 months you wouldnt even be close to your level cap if youve never played the game before let alone be up there playing with the vets in WoW Actually the point was that a level 10 character is irrelevant for PvP tuning. How is leveling progression relevant if the idea is equal opportunity? You stated that everything should be equal, i asked how can you balance a game thats been running for 12 years, you offered the study and cherrypicked info out of it. Im now going to ask the same question to the man behind it, just waiting to be accepted as follower so i can chat or mail him. What i need to know is if as you say that everyone should be equal in an enviroment when its 12 years old or that you have to look at it from how you would be playing from the start, If you can compare EvE to WoW as in a comparison from start in 1 month blocks for game advancement.
You have always maintained that you should be able to do anything in game, im going to see if thats what the study states or that all things concidered equal its progression that gives you access e.g. your time investment opens the opportunities for you.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 16:01:39 -
[5174] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:It already says: Quote:The 34 females and 139 males who responded had played at least one or more MMORPGs, such as World of Warcraft, EverQuest, EverQuest II, Lineage, Lineage II, Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes/Villains, RuneScape, and Final Fantasy XI; all had at least two monthsGÇÖ playing experience.. yes but when i said previously about any form of comparison you stated that leveling xp was not a valid equation to sp so your reference point was at 100, best to clear it up properly then you can say for definate that all your waffle is just that and if its case by case . if it was everything based on 2 months you wouldnt even be close to your level cap if youve never played the game before let alone be up there playing with the vets in WoW Actually the point was that a level 10 character is irrelevant for PvP tuning. How is leveling progression relevant if the idea is equal opportunity? You stated that everything should be equal, i asked how can you balance a game thats been running for 12 years, you offered the study and cherrypicked info out of it. Im now going to ask the same question to the man behind it, just waiting to be accepted as follower so i can chat or mail him. What i need to know is if as you say that everyone should be equal in an enviroment when its 12 years old or that you have to look at it from how you would be playing from the start, If you can compare EvE to WoW as in a comparison from start in 1 month blocks for game advancement. You have always maintained that you should be able to do anything in game, im going to see if thats what the study states or that all things concidered equal its progression that gives you access e.g. your time investment opens the opportunities for you. You're trying to make the discussion about balance and leveling progression, but it's essentially about equal opportunity.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Erik Sokarad
Republic University Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 16:12:42 -
[5175] - Quote
that is way too many posts to read there.
i like the idea, having more skillpoints for newer characters would be a good thing overall, even if they dont know how to really use those SP yet. it has minimal benefit to older characters who have enough skills to be good at things, so mostly it will help newer players compete more quickly.
end result depends a lot on where they put the cuttoffs for % gain, but the ones listed in the devblog look decent. i can see why players with older characters are worried about it, since it does put them at a net disadvantage in general, but most of em have enough of an advantage already for it to not really matter in the grand scheme of things. plus, this may help with CCP's bottom line and player retention. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 16:23:32 -
[5176] - Quote
Dror wrote:You're trying to make the discussion about balance and leveling progression, but it's essentially about equal opportunity. How can you give equality on something that is 12 years old, there is equal opportunity for anyone who wants to invest there time in the game, there isnt for someone who expects it all for no effort.
How long have you played EvE in total, have you ever played WoW at all, Ive got over 10 years of EvE and over 11 years of WoW so im not blowing smoke outta my ass, I have alot of experience in both.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 16:25:54 -
[5177] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:You're trying to make the discussion about balance and leveling progression, but it's essentially about equal opportunity. How can you give equality on something that is 12 years old, there is equal opportunity for anyone who wants to invest there time in the game, there isnt for someone who expects it all for no effort. How long have you played EvE in total, have you ever played WoW at all, Ive got over 10 years of EvE and over 11 years of WoW so im not blowing smoke outta my ass, I have alot of experience in both. Isn't the game without SP equal opportunity?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 16:33:18 -
[5178] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:You're trying to make the discussion about balance and leveling progression, but it's essentially about equal opportunity. How can you give equality on something that is 12 years old, there is equal opportunity for anyone who wants to invest there time in the game, there isnt for someone who expects it all for no effort. How long have you played EvE in total, have you ever played WoW at all, Ive got over 10 years of EvE and over 11 years of WoW so im not blowing smoke outta my ass, I have alot of experience in both. Isn't the game without SP equal opportunity? No to get without effort creates boredom. back to the question i asked originally what is your experience of actual gameplay.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 16:35:35 -
[5179] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:You're trying to make the discussion about balance and leveling progression, but it's essentially about equal opportunity. How can you give equality on something that is 12 years old, there is equal opportunity for anyone who wants to invest there time in the game, there isnt for someone who expects it all for no effort. How long have you played EvE in total, have you ever played WoW at all, Ive got over 10 years of EvE and over 11 years of WoW so im not blowing smoke outta my ass, I have alot of experience in both. Isn't the game without SP equal opportunity? No to get without effort creates boredom. back to the question i asked originally what is your experience of actual gameplay. Plenty.
There's no effort in SP. It's just a payment wall.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 16:38:56 -
[5180] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:You're trying to make the discussion about balance and leveling progression, but it's essentially about equal opportunity. How can you give equality on something that is 12 years old, there is equal opportunity for anyone who wants to invest there time in the game, there isnt for someone who expects it all for no effort. How long have you played EvE in total, have you ever played WoW at all, Ive got over 10 years of EvE and over 11 years of WoW so im not blowing smoke outta my ass, I have alot of experience in both. Isn't the game without SP equal opportunity? No to get without effort creates boredom. back to the question i asked originally what is your experience of actual gameplay. Plenty. There's no effort in SP. It's just a payment wall. Well enlighten us then, Youve spent the past 6 days baffling with your fancy words meaning and values of why your the only one here who thinks the way you do.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 16:46:18 -
[5181] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Isn't the game without SP equal opportunity? No to get without effort creates boredom. back to the question i asked originally what is your experience of actual gameplay. Plenty. There's no effort in SP. It's just a payment wall. Well enlighten us then, Youve spent the past 6 days baffling with your fancy words meaning and values of why your the only one here who thinks the way you do. There's plenty here describing the properties of SP as being detrimental to subscriptions.
It seems like that's all.
Enjoy.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 16:52:14 -
[5182] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Isn't the game without SP equal opportunity? No to get without effort creates boredom. back to the question i asked originally what is your experience of actual gameplay. Plenty. There's no effort in SP. It's just a payment wall. Well enlighten us then, Youve spent the past 6 days baffling with your fancy words meaning and values of why your the only one here who thinks the way you do. There's plenty here describing the properties of SP as being detrimental to subscriptions. It seems like that's all. Enjoy. So your just a clueless Gobsh**e who hates being held back ...... why dont you go play something like tribal wars its suites your playstyle better.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 16:54:44 -
[5183] - Quote
So back to the real issue, Anyone heard anything yet on whats happening
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
124
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 17:08:02 -
[5184] - Quote
What happening? You was wrong?!
Pinky Bear
|
Rammix
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
322
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 21:00:42 -
[5185] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Mag's wrote:CCP Terminus wrote: Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.
Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal? Nice. Daniela Doran wrote:Yes I also really like to know if this is a done deal? The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision. If it was a done deal we'd have put the dev blog out when it was going to be shipped. The whole point of the dev blog is to gather feedback and assess. Still, it looks like you're not going to completely cancel it unless you're forced to through some scandal.
OpenSUSE 13.2, wine 1.7.32
Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
|
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 21:53:14 -
[5186] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Suede wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Suede wrote: reading this says other story
I'll paste a partial reply of mine from a different thread but it explains why the WOD thing actually speaks for us in this regard. Quote:EVE Always was intended to be a niche game and it did just fine in that role.
Then DEVS got illusions of grandeur and started wasting EVE money on other stuff, not money they had ON TOP of what was needed for EVE... no, they halted time, effort and money intended for EVE and spent it elsewhere. And then, to make up for the obvious reality check and problems that followed from that they tried to implement p2w into EVE. Almost more worrying, WiS in EVE was just a tech demo so they used up resources from EVE to build WoD and then they used EVE to act as a testing bed for WoD, while being utterly terrible. THAT is what the rioting was about, it never was about WiS itself (would it have been implemented properly) but about the situation and reasoning to have it forced into the game.
CCP started to do a lot better, lots of changes in regards to attitude, focus and progress. Tons of really good stuff, in fact EVE has never been in a better state, from a tech pov. But then it happened AGAIN: illusions of grandeur, which is fine if only they didn't waste EVE resources on it. CCP started to, yet again, waste EVE money on other projects which , yet again, didn't get managed too well and thus, yet again, get them in trouble and they, yet again, try to look at P2W solutions for a short term income boost. Sounds familiar? CCP seems to require continued explaining that killing the golden goose will get them a juicy dinner for one night but is, on the whole, a moronically dumb thing to do. Some times they need to be told to wear their dunce hat and be put in the corner of the room for a bit, this is one of those times. This is a familiar feature in online games, but usually a new outfit for a player character will cost $15-20. CCP decided to charge much more. The most notorious example was a monocle costing $70. The price tag infuriated fans kick-starting a major pricing controversy that would go on to become known as Monocle-gate. The CEO had members of the fiction writing team put the apology together - he was either so out of touch, so arrogant, that he couldnGÇÖt find the words himself Eventually CEO Hilmar Veigar P+¬tursson issued an apology to the players. But even this short appeasement wasnGÇÖt what it seemed; according to Blood, Petursson didnGÇÖt actually write it. more bad business practices if the CEO of CCP can not talk to it paying player base says a lot, anyhow we just going to have to wait to see if this SP trading is other Monocle-gate. It is, because it started for the same reason: CCP fcked up with other projects and are now looking to milk EVE beyond what is deemed acceptable within the game's core design, only to get short term income to cover the mess they created. Instead they need to deal with that mess, get rid of it, cut costs, I don't CARE what they do. Just don't sell out EVE. I'm fine with CCP making extra money to fund stuff as long as they do so within the parameters we hold them to: no p2w, only cosmetics and no circumvention of the ingame economy and/or player created content". They can do skins, more skins, race resets (not name, corp history or SP), heck they can make "pets" in the form of orbiting droids doing all kinds of whirring and whizzing (to keep miners happy and occupied), as long as it doesn't actually impact the game. They'd be stupid not to and that really is the thing. For some reason they're not doing what we've actually like them doing, we'd love to send more money to CCP for skins, more clothing options, more tattoos and whatever the fck else but for some reason they're not doing that or at least not at the scale or speed that could be expected. Instead they come up with this ****. Example: we have the golden pod, I'm willing to bet a fckton of money that if they would implement more of those (one for each major faction but also the pirate factions) and make then quite expensive they'd sell like hotcakes. They're completely useless, you won't ever really see them anyway but I'd pay through the nose for a Kaalakiotaa pod and I'm sure you'd pay quite a bit to have one for a faction you align yourself with. They have the precedent and technology yet for some reason we're still waiting for this. How DUMB must one's marketing team be to not recognise this and act on it? Case in point: Fed navy comet police skin, make a pod version of that complete with 2 flash lights (one on the top, one on the bottom red and blue), sell it for the equivalent of $100. I'd buy that for several of my characters and you can bet your ass tons of other folks would do too.
the trouble is most eve vets have been playing for like 10 years or more and subbed there account for all that time, which most old players have spent long months training skills and working to the SP with no help , just a shame that CCP can not think any thing about it old player base that have been playing for over 10 years and never got any SP boost or ways to buy SP when you start out in eve, it is 10 years too late to add this in to the game,
I think CCP should also be doing something for the old player base as well, at least give the plus 10 years sub paying people something,
Playing eve for 10 years paying a sub to CCP should at least be taken as royal customer.
and I bet ccp never even read the posts from player base, very selected to what they read,
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
125
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 21:58:42 -
[5187] - Quote
Rammix wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:Mag's wrote:CCP Terminus wrote: Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.
Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal? Nice. Daniela Doran wrote:Yes I also really like to know if this is a done deal? The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision. If it was a done deal we'd have put the dev blog out when it was going to be shipped. The whole point of the dev blog is to gather feedback and assess. Still, it looks like you're not going to completely cancel it unless you're forced to through some scandal. We need a civil war between those who want to use transplants and those who wont/forbid to use them.
Pinky Bear
|
Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group
167
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 22:39:06 -
[5188] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Malice Redeemer wrote:General Lootit wrote: What a conspiracy...
So you are saying this won't help the largest corporations recruit more members? I'm saying that it will helps noobs to socialize also.
I'm sorry, I guess I didn't know there was a teamspeak skill you needed to have at 5. My bad.
I talk to a couple of brand newbies every day. This isn't about socializing, it is about one more thing the largest corps will be able to afford to throw at there new members. Small corps will not be able to afford that, especially corps that recruit from in the game, and have to worry about getting take advantage of. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 22:45:49 -
[5189] - Quote
Malice Redeemer wrote:General Lootit wrote:Malice Redeemer wrote:General Lootit wrote: What a conspiracy...
So you are saying this won't help the largest corporations recruit more members? I'm saying that it will helps noobs to socialize also. I'm sorry, I guess I didn't know there was a teamspeak skill you needed to have at 5. My bad. I talk to a couple of brand newbies every day. This isn't about socializing, it is about one more thing the largest corps will be able to afford to throw at there new members. Small corps will not be able to afford that, especially corps that recruit from in the game, and have to worry about getting take advantage of. If you have a problem with affordability, why should SP cost so much at all? Subs are there for the game. The progression system is arbitrary.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
125
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 22:55:36 -
[5190] - Quote
Malice Redeemer wrote:General Lootit wrote:Malice Redeemer wrote:General Lootit wrote: What a conspiracy...
So you are saying this won't help the largest corporations recruit more members? I'm saying that it will helps noobs to socialize also. I'm sorry, I guess I didn't know there was a teamspeak skill you needed to have at 5. My bad. I talk to a couple of brand newbies every day. This isn't about socializing, it is about one more thing the largest corps will be able to afford to throw at there new members. Small corps will not be able to afford that, especially corps that recruit from in the game, and have to worry about getting take advantage of. Small corps could afford close relationships -> more loyal members. Not rich - be funny.
Pinky Bear
|
|
Zerg Xander
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 23:48:31 -
[5191] - Quote
I love this idea! I am a new player who recently resubbed after quitting after only a couple months. This might actually keep me in the game. When I look at how long I will have to train to be viable in pvp it seems hopeless. If I try to pve I get insulted or ganked. The biggest problem this game has is its community. Everyone says they want to help noobs but you call us Care Bears gank us while mining or steal our stuff in missions. It seems like the only reason the older players want newer players is to kill them most older players who act like they are good at this game only take fights with weaker players. The old guard needs to be shaken up in this game. Most of the map is empty because coalitions control 100x more space then they need. Why would any new player stay in this game if they know that no matter how hard they work they will never be able to compete with a 5 year character.
I think this could actually draw new players |
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
990
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 00:25:23 -
[5192] - Quote
Holy **** ccp. You are realy going to back stab me? I pay for your god damn game every month to get my sp this high and you boys want to get greedy on this?
For the love of god wtf happend with ccp..... Playing to many facebook games ccp? Stop trolling and do your job correct this is bulshit. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
209
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 00:33:59 -
[5193] - Quote
Zerg Xander wrote:I love this idea! I am a new player who recently resubbed after quitting after only a couple months. This might actually keep me in the game. When I look at how long I will have to train to be viable in pvp it seems hopeless. If I try to pve I get insulted or ganked. The biggest problem this game has is its community. Everyone says they want to help noobs but you call us Care Bears gank us while mining or steal our stuff in missions. It seems like the only reason the older players want newer players is to kill them most older players who act like they are good at this game only take fights with weaker players. The old guard needs to be shaken up in this game. Most of the map is empty because coalitions control 100x more space then they need. Why would any new player stay in this game if they know that no matter how hard they work they will never be able to compete with a 5 year character.
I think this could actually draw new players
Yea and then they quit when they realize they can't afford to pay for a second house note.
|
Jadon Wallace
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 02:52:50 -
[5194] - Quote
Zerg Xander wrote:I love this idea! I am a new player who recently resubbed after quitting after only a couple months. This might actually keep me in the game. When I look at how long I will have to train to be viable in pvp it seems hopeless. If I try to pve I get insulted or ganked. The biggest problem this game has is its community. Everyone says they want to help noobs but you call us Care Bears gank us while mining or steal our stuff in missions. It seems like the only reason the older players want newer players is to kill them most older players who act like they are good at this game only take fights with weaker players. The old guard needs to be shaken up in this game. Most of the map is empty because coalitions control 100x more space then they need. Why would any new player stay in this game if they know that no matter how hard they work they will never be able to compete with a 5 year character.
I think this could actually draw new players
Interesting reply, I would like to know what you mean by being 'viable in PVP' and never being able 'to compete with a 5 year character'. SP is important but I feel it's a strong psychological factor rather than a barrier to entry in most cases, for example for a new character it's easy to get into a e-war frigate or even a electronic attack ship, both of which are very valuable and incredibly annoying on the field. Frigates in general are easy low entry and really newbies should start from the bottom and work there way up in competence, goes hand in hand with the time it takes to train to the next thing as well, it's not I can fly a Battleship therefore nothing under that can compete or kill me, EVE is a game of rock, paper, shotgun. People won't play fair, learn, play smart and work your way to where you want to be. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3072
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 07:48:59 -
[5195] - Quote
Zerg Xander wrote:I love this idea! I am a new player who recently resubbed after quitting after only a couple months. This might actually keep me in the game. When I look at how long I will have to train to be viable in pvp it seems hopeless. If I try to pve I get insulted or ganked. The biggest problem this game has is its community. Everyone says they want to help noobs but you call us Care Bears gank us while mining or steal our stuff in missions. It seems like the only reason the older players want newer players is to kill them most older players who act like they are good at this game only take fights with weaker players. The old guard needs to be shaken up in this game. Most of the map is empty because coalitions control 100x more space then they need. Why would any new player stay in this game if they know that no matter how hard they work they will never be able to compete with a 5 year character.
I think this could actually draw new players
How many skill points do you feel you need in order to be good at pvp?
You should know that a skilled player flying a 'lesser' ship than yours with better general knowledge of pvp will still beat you.
This is not a signature.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
158
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 08:08:58 -
[5196] - Quote
Zerg Xander wrote:I love this idea! I am a new player who recently resubbed after quitting after only a couple months. This might actually keep me in the game. When I look at how long I will have to train to be viable in pvp it seems hopeless. If I try to pve I get insulted or ganked. The biggest problem this game has is its community. Everyone says they want to help noobs but you call us Care Bears gank us while mining or steal our stuff in missions. It seems like the only reason the older players want newer players is to kill them most older players who act like they are good at this game only take fights with weaker players. The old guard needs to be shaken up in this game. Most of the map is empty because coalitions control 100x more space then they need. Why would any new player stay in this game if they know that no matter how hard they work they will never be able to compete with a 5 year character.
I think this could actually draw new players
So to be in a tech 3 destroyer tech 2 fitted for pvp in a month - That is along time for you. If thats the case god help you with BS5 AWU5 and Capital Skills. Carebears are hi sec lvl4 mission runners and alot i would say are alts of null players. The ganking, can flipping mission ninja looting are players that are not that different than you for the most part, you will always get some people having fun at the expense of others but its EvE and it is harsh. MMO is not solo involve yourself with others.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
125
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 09:20:06 -
[5197] - Quote
Vets, did you just found easy target?
Pinky Bear
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
125
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 10:21:49 -
[5198] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote: Yea and then they quit when they realize they can't afford to pay for a second house note.
Daniela Doran wrote:The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision.
Daniela Doran wrote:I'm losing all interest to log in anymore thanks to you. Hah?!
Pinky Bear
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
125
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 10:29:44 -
[5199] - Quote
Jadon Wallace wrote:Zerg Xander wrote:I love this idea! I am a new player who recently resubbed after quitting after only a couple months. This might actually keep me in the game. When I look at how long I will have to train to be viable in pvp it seems hopeless. If I try to pve I get insulted or ganked. The biggest problem this game has is its community. Everyone says they want to help noobs but you call us Care Bears gank us while mining or steal our stuff in missions. It seems like the only reason the older players want newer players is to kill them most older players who act like they are good at this game only take fights with weaker players. The old guard needs to be shaken up in this game. Most of the map is empty because coalitions control 100x more space then they need. Why would any new player stay in this game if they know that no matter how hard they work they will never be able to compete with a 5 year character.
I think this could actually draw new players Interesting reply, I would like to know what you mean by being 'viable in PVP' and never being able 'to compete with a 5 year character'. SP is important but I feel it's a strong psychological factor rather than a barrier to entry in most cases, for example for a new character it's easy to get into a e-war frigate or even a electronic attack ship, both of which are very valuable and incredibly annoying on the field. Frigates in general are easy low entry and really newbies should start from the bottom and work there way up in competence, goes hand in hand with the time it takes to train to the next thing as well, it's not I can fly a Battleship therefore nothing under that can compete or kill me, EVE is a game of rock, paper, shotgun. People won't play fair, learn, play smart and work your way to where you want to be. You might want to read this post.
Pinky Bear
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
62
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 13:04:27 -
[5200] - Quote
Jadon Wallace wrote:Zerg Xander wrote:I love this idea! I am a new player who recently resubbed after quitting after only a couple months. This might actually keep me in the game. When I look at how long I will have to train to be viable in pvp it seems hopeless. If I try to pve I get insulted or ganked. The biggest problem this game has is its community. Everyone says they want to help noobs but you call us Care Bears gank us while mining or steal our stuff in missions. It seems like the only reason the older players want newer players is to kill them most older players who act like they are good at this game only take fights with weaker players. The old guard needs to be shaken up in this game. Most of the map is empty because coalitions control 100x more space then they need. Why would any new player stay in this game if they know that no matter how hard they work they will never be able to compete with a 5 year character.
I think this could actually draw new players Interesting reply, I would like to know what you mean by being 'viable in PVP' and never being able 'to compete with a 5 year character'. SP is important but I feel it's a strong psychological factor rather than a barrier to entry in most cases, for example for a new character it's easy to get into a e-war frigate or even a electronic attack ship, both of which are very valuable and incredibly annoying on the field. Frigates in general are easy low entry and really newbies should start from the bottom and work there way up in competence, goes hand in hand with the time it takes to train to the next thing as well, it's not I can fly a Battleship therefore nothing under that can compete or kill me, EVE is a game of rock, paper, shotgun. People won't play fair, learn, play smart and work your way to where you want to be. The game should seem absolutely enthralling before a character has to train T2 ammo. T1 fitting is vastly outplayed though, for the already tiny target selection of T1 frigates.
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Zerg Xander wrote:I love this idea! I am a new player who recently resubbed after quitting after only a couple months. This might actually keep me in the game. When I look at how long I will have to train to be viable in pvp it seems hopeless. If I try to pve I get insulted or ganked. The biggest problem this game has is its community. Everyone says they want to help noobs but you call us Care Bears gank us while mining or steal our stuff in missions. It seems like the only reason the older players want newer players is to kill them most older players who act like they are good at this game only take fights with weaker players. The old guard needs to be shaken up in this game. Most of the map is empty because coalitions control 100x more space then they need. Why would any new player stay in this game if they know that no matter how hard they work they will never be able to compete with a 5 year character.
I think this could actually draw new players How many skill points do you feel you need in order to be good at pvp? You should know that a skilled player flying a 'lesser' ship than yours with better general knowledge of pvp will still beat you. On that note, it'd be interesting to watch a T1 ammo twink vs. a newbie that has a decent clue how to play (and has better skills obviously). I'd bet on the newbie for every class of ship probably.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
161
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 13:38:11 -
[5201] - Quote
Dror wrote:Jadon Wallace wrote:Zerg Xander wrote:I love this idea! I am a new player who recently resubbed after quitting after only a couple months. This might actually keep me in the game. When I look at how long I will have to train to be viable in pvp it seems hopeless. If I try to pve I get insulted or ganked. The biggest problem this game has is its community. Everyone says they want to help noobs but you call us Care Bears gank us while mining or steal our stuff in missions. It seems like the only reason the older players want newer players is to kill them most older players who act like they are good at this game only take fights with weaker players. The old guard needs to be shaken up in this game. Most of the map is empty because coalitions control 100x more space then they need. Why would any new player stay in this game if they know that no matter how hard they work they will never be able to compete with a 5 year character.
I think this could actually draw new players Interesting reply, I would like to know what you mean by being 'viable in PVP' and never being able 'to compete with a 5 year character'. SP is important but I feel it's a strong psychological factor rather than a barrier to entry in most cases, for example for a new character it's easy to get into a e-war frigate or even a electronic attack ship, both of which are very valuable and incredibly annoying on the field. Frigates in general are easy low entry and really newbies should start from the bottom and work there way up in competence, goes hand in hand with the time it takes to train to the next thing as well, it's not I can fly a Battleship therefore nothing under that can compete or kill me, EVE is a game of rock, paper, shotgun. People won't play fair, learn, play smart and work your way to where you want to be. The game should seem absolutely enthralling before a character has to train T2 ammo. T1 fitting is vastly outplayed though, for the already tiny target selection of T1 frigates. Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Zerg Xander wrote:I love this idea! I am a new player who recently resubbed after quitting after only a couple months. This might actually keep me in the game. When I look at how long I will have to train to be viable in pvp it seems hopeless. If I try to pve I get insulted or ganked. The biggest problem this game has is its community. Everyone says they want to help noobs but you call us Care Bears gank us while mining or steal our stuff in missions. It seems like the only reason the older players want newer players is to kill them most older players who act like they are good at this game only take fights with weaker players. The old guard needs to be shaken up in this game. Most of the map is empty because coalitions control 100x more space then they need. Why would any new player stay in this game if they know that no matter how hard they work they will never be able to compete with a 5 year character.
I think this could actually draw new players How many skill points do you feel you need in order to be good at pvp? You should know that a skilled player flying a 'lesser' ship than yours with better general knowledge of pvp will still beat you. On that note, it'd be interesting to watch a T1 ammo twink vs. a newbie that has a decent clue how to play (and has better skills obviously). I'd bet on the newbie for every class of ship probably. Your back with some more clueless ramblings, A twink is a character that has items that are far superior for its level of intended use, best enchantments armour weapons, so your twink is given t1 ammo ..... your priceless Dror.
Infact seeing as you opened that door, the reason you can't have twinks in this game is we have no locked characters, classes or content, player A plays for 90 days / player B plays for 90 days regardless if they both play the same amount of time or player A logs in every day and player B plays at the weekends only, at the end of the 90 days they both have the same skillpoints to distribute.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
YouAreMyBounty Sarn
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 15:22:35 -
[5202] - Quote
My friend just text me about this. I'm livid!
You are going to offer the low skilled players a chance to boost their skill points significantly. I've had to train my account for just over 2 years to get 40 million skill points. A task that has cost me around -ú240 to do. Now you are saying to the beginners that they can grind a tonne of ISK on an alt account & use it to just BUY their skill points? Why would you punish me like that? If you go through with this, I would hope that you offer me to sell my points back to Eve Online for real life money at a rate of -ú10 a month (like you charge me), then I will just grind the ISK in game & buy all my skill points using ISK instead of paying the -ú240 I've spet on my account. What a joke! Not happy! |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
495
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 15:43:58 -
[5203] - Quote
Zerg Xander wrote:I love this idea! I am a new player who recently resubbed after quitting after only a couple months. This might actually keep me in the game. When I look at how long I will have to train to be viable in pvp it seems hopeless. If I try to pve I get insulted or ganked. The biggest problem this game has is its community. Everyone says they want to help noobs but you call us Care Bears gank us while mining or steal our stuff in missions. It seems like the only reason the older players want newer players is to kill them most older players who act like they are good at this game only take fights with weaker players. The old guard needs to be shaken up in this game. Most of the map is empty because coalitions control 100x more space then they need. Why would any new player stay in this game if they know that no matter how hard they work they will never be able to compete with a 5 year character.
I think this could actually draw new players
So much misunderstanding of the game in that statement. You can be better than a10 year veteran within a year of you specialize. You can be on competitive level with a 10 year veteran within a couple of months. I'm sorry you had a poor experience at start. I would try again and find a good corp. |
Jadon Wallace
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 16:31:05 -
[5204] - Quote
Dror wrote:Jadon Wallace wrote:Zerg Xander wrote:I love this idea! I am a new player who recently resubbed after quitting after only a couple months. This might actually keep me in the game. When I look at how long I will have to train to be viable in pvp it seems hopeless. If I try to pve I get insulted or ganked. The biggest problem this game has is its community. Everyone says they want to help noobs but you call us Care Bears gank us while mining or steal our stuff in missions. It seems like the only reason the older players want newer players is to kill them most older players who act like they are good at this game only take fights with weaker players. The old guard needs to be shaken up in this game. Most of the map is empty because coalitions control 100x more space then they need. Why would any new player stay in this game if they know that no matter how hard they work they will never be able to compete with a 5 year character.
I think this could actually draw new players Interesting reply, I would like to know what you mean by being 'viable in PVP' and never being able 'to compete with a 5 year character'. SP is important but I feel it's a strong psychological factor rather than a barrier to entry in most cases, for example for a new character it's easy to get into a e-war frigate or even a electronic attack ship, both of which are very valuable and incredibly annoying on the field. Frigates in general are easy low entry and really newbies should start from the bottom and work there way up in competence, goes hand in hand with the time it takes to train to the next thing as well, it's not I can fly a Battleship therefore nothing under that can compete or kill me, EVE is a game of rock, paper, shotgun. People won't play fair, learn, play smart and work your way to where you want to be. The game should seem absolutely enthralling before a character has to train T2 ammo. T1 fitting is vastly outplayed though, for the already tiny target selection of T1 frigates. Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Zerg Xander wrote:I love this idea! I am a new player who recently resubbed after quitting after only a couple months. This might actually keep me in the game. When I look at how long I will have to train to be viable in pvp it seems hopeless. If I try to pve I get insulted or ganked. The biggest problem this game has is its community. Everyone says they want to help noobs but you call us Care Bears gank us while mining or steal our stuff in missions. It seems like the only reason the older players want newer players is to kill them most older players who act like they are good at this game only take fights with weaker players. The old guard needs to be shaken up in this game. Most of the map is empty because coalitions control 100x more space then they need. Why would any new player stay in this game if they know that no matter how hard they work they will never be able to compete with a 5 year character.
I think this could actually draw new players How many skill points do you feel you need in order to be good at pvp? You should know that a skilled player flying a 'lesser' ship than yours with better general knowledge of pvp will still beat you. On that note, it'd be interesting to watch a T1 ammo twink vs. a newbie that has a decent clue how to play (and has better skills obviously). I'd bet on the newbie for every class of ship probably.
The game is very deep and capturing, the thing with EVE is though you make your own adventures, stories and content. It's not like WoW or any other MMO, EVE is harsh, EVE is unforgiving and so for many it's not the game for them. For those who thrive on that kind of thing EVE is amazing, massive sandbox. Even as a newbie there is a lot to do, EVE is a game about sacrifice, patience and determination. I know for myself I would be put off by EVE being watered down into a typical MMO, this game is beautiful, this game is different and in my opinion it should stay that way. I am not saying we don't need to improve the new player experience or help out newcomers to the game, there is a lot that can be done on that front. But let's not encourage CCP to take away a big part of what makes this game great.
|
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
495
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 17:14:28 -
[5205] - Quote
Coming up next, golden ships and modules for aurum that have similar stats to T2 but don't require years of training. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
151
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 18:19:33 -
[5206] - Quote
YouAreMyBounty Sarn wrote:My friend just text me about this. I'm livid!
You are going to offer the low skilled players a chance to boost their skill points significantly. I've had to train my account for just over 2 years to get 40 million skill points. A task that has cost me around -ú240 to do. Now you are saying to the beginners that they can grind a tonne of ISK on an alt account & use it to just BUY their skill points? Why would you punish me like that? If you go through with this, I would hope that you offer me to sell my points back to Eve Online for real life money at a rate of -ú10 a month (like you charge me), then I will just grind the ISK in game & buy all my skill points using ISK instead of paying the -ú240 I've spet on my account. I doubt you will offer me this chance, so I'm well annoyed. Let me know ASAP on if this will be in the patch because I won't be paying for a subscription anymore. I'll simply just grind the ISK and buy my skill points.
Any what about PVP fights now? Where possible I've tried to guess my opponents skill points by looking at their DOB. I would no longer be able to do that anymore?
Big corps who have trillions could just buy a 1day old toon and buy it 50 mill SP. So I could lose to a 1day old toon. What a joke man. Seriously.
Final thoughts: What a joke! Not happy!
See while I think selling SPs is a bad idea, the reasons you gave just play into the hands of the "pro selling SPs" camp because they sound like self entitled vet whine.
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
151
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 18:24:55 -
[5207] - Quote
Dror wrote: On that note, it'd be interesting to watch a T1 ammo twink vs. a newbie that has a decent clue how to play (and has better skills obviously). I'd bet on the newbie for every class of ship probably.
LMFAO if you had said twink vs hisec bear I might have actually siht myself laughing |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
129
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 18:40:38 -
[5208] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:YouAreMyBounty Sarn wrote:My friend just text me about this. I'm livid!
You are going to offer the low skilled players a chance to boost their skill points significantly. I've had to train my account for just over 2 years to get 40 million skill points. A task that has cost me around -ú240 to do. Now you are saying to the beginners that they can grind a tonne of ISK on an alt account & use it to just BUY their skill points? Why would you punish me like that? If you go through with this, I would hope that you offer me to sell my points back to Eve Online for real life money at a rate of -ú10 a month (like you charge me), then I will just grind the ISK in game & buy all my skill points using ISK instead of paying the -ú240 I've spet on my account. I doubt you will offer me this chance, so I'm well annoyed. Let me know ASAP on if this will be in the patch because I won't be paying for a subscription anymore. I'll simply just grind the ISK and buy my skill points.
Any what about PVP fights now? Where possible I've tried to guess my opponents skill points by looking at their DOB. I would no longer be able to do that anymore?
Big corps who have trillions could just buy a 1day old toon and buy it 50 mill SP. So I could lose to a 1day old toon. What a joke man. Seriously.
Final thoughts: What a joke! Not happy! See while I think selling SPs is a bad idea, the reasons you gave just play into the hands of the "pro selling SPs" camp because they sound like self entitled vet whine. Now you talking like a real politic.
Pinky Bear
|
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 19:47:31 -
[5209] - Quote
YouAreMyBounty Sarn wrote:My friend just text me about this. I'm livid!
You are going to offer the low skilled players a chance to boost their skill points significantly. I've had to train my account for just over 2 years to get 40 million skill points. A task that has cost me around -ú240 to do. Now you are saying to the beginners that they can grind a tonne of ISK on an alt account & use it to just BUY their skill points? Why would you punish me like that? If you go through with this, I would hope that you offer me to sell my points back to Eve Online for real life money at a rate of -ú10 a month (like you charge me), then I will just grind the ISK in game & buy all my skill points using ISK instead of paying the -ú240 I've spet on my account. I doubt you will offer me this chance, so I'm well annoyed. Let me know ASAP on if this will be in the patch because I won't be paying for a subscription anymore. I'll simply just grind the ISK and buy my skill points.
Any what about PVP fights now? Where possible I've tried to guess my opponents skill points by looking at their DOB. I would no longer be able to do that anymore?
Big corps who have trillions could just buy a 1day old toon and buy it 50 mill SP. So I could lose to a 1day old toon. What a joke man. Seriously.
Final thoughts: What a joke! Not happy!
Just a shame that 10 years playing eve till now we never had any way to buy SP and we eve Vets who have been royal to eve had to train skill for all this time to get to the SP where are now, which we paying sub for all this time
Just a bit of joke that CCP letting new player become an 50Mill SP in less then a day is just bit of a joke and total insult to royal player base who been playing since Alpha/Beta and CCP needs to get its priority rights to think more about the royal paying 10 years olds who been with eve all this time, |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
62
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 20:07:29 -
[5210] - Quote
Suede wrote:YouAreMyBounty Sarn wrote:My friend just text me about this. I'm livid!
You are going to offer the low skilled players a chance to boost their skill points significantly. I've had to train my account for just over 2 years to get 40 million skill points. A task that has cost me around -ú240 to do. Now you are saying to the beginners that they can grind a tonne of ISK on an alt account & use it to just BUY their skill points? Why would you punish me like that? If you go through with this, I would hope that you offer me to sell my points back to Eve Online for real life money at a rate of -ú10 a month (like you charge me), then I will just grind the ISK in game & buy all my skill points using ISK instead of paying the -ú240 I've spet on my account. I doubt you will offer me this chance, so I'm well annoyed. Let me know ASAP on if this will be in the patch because I won't be paying for a subscription anymore. I'll simply just grind the ISK and buy my skill points.
Any what about PVP fights now? Where possible I've tried to guess my opponents skill points by looking at their DOB. I would no longer be able to do that anymore?
Big corps who have trillions could just buy a 1day old toon and buy it 50 mill SP. So I could lose to a 1day old toon. What a joke man. Seriously.
Final thoughts: What a joke! Not happy! Just a shame that 10 years playing eve till now we never had any way to buy SP and we eve Vets who have been royal to eve had to train skill for all this time to get to the SP where are now, which we paying sub for all this time Just a bit of joke that CCP letting new player become an 50Mill SP in less then a day is just bit of a joke and total insult to royal player base who been playing since Alpha/Beta and CCP needs to get its priority rights to think more about the royal paying 10 years olds who been with eve all this time, "Guys, SP training is awful, and others should have to do it because we did."
Conversely, there's rooting for every character getting max SP.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
13
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 20:54:24 -
[5211] - Quote
I think I would be less against this if it was skills being sold not skill points
Example:- I have fighters lvl 5 so I can package it & sell it as lvl 5 fighters
If I can sell the SP value of a skill then what happens is "Does every pilot in my fleet have perfect skills? - NO - Then we just go out and buy them some" and the skills of pilots becomes secondary to the amount of ISK you can throw at them.
|
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
993
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 21:56:22 -
[5212] - Quote
Waiting for the golden ammo and T4 guns (for v.i.p members only) my god ccp.
If you going to do. I have calculate it. I have 130m sp I have sins day 1 this char +5 implants its now 7 years ago sins birth. 2008 char
Pay every year : 131.40 x 7 years thats 919,80 total i have payed for this one with discount.
Now the SP calculator : 18 571 428 ,57 SP every year 130 mil sp point and total of 7 years
if the pay 150 dollars for 20 mil sp, i can live with that. Or i want a refund for all the wasted money. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
53
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 23:23:01 -
[5213] - Quote
Suede wrote:YouAreMyBounty Sarn wrote:My friend just text me about this. I'm livid!
You are going to offer the low skilled players a chance to boost their skill points significantly. I've had to train my account for just over 2 years to get 40 million skill points. A task that has cost me around -ú240 to do. Now you are saying to the beginners that they can grind a tonne of ISK on an alt account & use it to just BUY their skill points? Why would you punish me like that? If you go through with this, I would hope that you offer me to sell my points back to Eve Online for real life money at a rate of -ú10 a month (like you charge me), then I will just grind the ISK in game & buy all my skill points using ISK instead of paying the -ú240 I've spet on my account. I doubt you will offer me this chance, so I'm well annoyed. Let me know ASAP on if this will be in the patch because I won't be paying for a subscription anymore. I'll simply just grind the ISK and buy my skill points.
Any what about PVP fights now? Where possible I've tried to guess my opponents skill points by looking at their DOB. I would no longer be able to do that anymore?
Big corps who have trillions could just buy a 1day old toon and buy it 50 mill SP. So I could lose to a 1day old toon. What a joke man. Seriously.
Final thoughts: What a joke! Not happy! Just a shame that 10 years playing eve till now we never had any way to buy SP and we eve Vets who have been royal to eve had to train skill for all this time to get to the SP where are now, which we paying sub for all this time Just a bit of joke that CCP letting new player become an 50Mill SP in less then a day is just bit of a joke and total insult to royal player base who been playing since Alpha/Beta and CCP needs to get its priority rights to think more about the royal paying 10 years olds who been with eve all this time,
Delicious tears you have QQ moar plzkthxbai |
Verminah Helbain
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 00:16:54 -
[5214] - Quote
Why did they even bother posting this when it seems they have no intent on replying at all. |
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
993
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 01:10:46 -
[5215] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Suede wrote:YouAreMyBounty Sarn wrote:My friend just text me about this. I'm livid!
You are going to offer the low skilled players a chance to boost their skill points significantly. I've had to train my account for just over 2 years to get 40 million skill points. A task that has cost me around -ú240 to do. Now you are saying to the beginners that they can grind a tonne of ISK on an alt account & use it to just BUY their skill points? Why would you punish me like that? If you go through with this, I would hope that you offer me to sell my points back to Eve Online for real life money at a rate of -ú10 a month (like you charge me), then I will just grind the ISK in game & buy all my skill points using ISK instead of paying the -ú240 I've spet on my account. I doubt you will offer me this chance, so I'm well annoyed. Let me know ASAP on if this will be in the patch because I won't be paying for a subscription anymore. I'll simply just grind the ISK and buy my skill points.
Any what about PVP fights now? Where possible I've tried to guess my opponents skill points by looking at their DOB. I would no longer be able to do that anymore?
Big corps who have trillions could just buy a 1day old toon and buy it 50 mill SP. So I could lose to a 1day old toon. What a joke man. Seriously.
Final thoughts: What a joke! Not happy! Just a shame that 10 years playing eve till now we never had any way to buy SP and we eve Vets who have been royal to eve had to train skill for all this time to get to the SP where are now, which we paying sub for all this time Just a bit of joke that CCP letting new player become an 50Mill SP in less then a day is just bit of a joke and total insult to royal player base who been playing since Alpha/Beta and CCP needs to get its priority rights to think more about the royal paying 10 years olds who been with eve all this time, Delicious tears you have QQ moar plzkthxbai
Are you a League of Toxic player or what? Learn some respect dude or gtfo this forum. And stay at the topic. This is a serious matter if you can not handle that, then stay at world of warcraft. I can not stand this kind of stupid nonsense in those forums.
This is a serious problem for vet and for "new" people. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
351
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 01:36:06 -
[5216] - Quote
Verminah Helbain wrote:Why did they even bother posting this when it seems they have no intent on replying at all.
They're trying to see if they can get away with it. If we blink for a second, lower our guard just a tiny bit or perhaps grow tired of being ever defiant, they'll sneak in P2W juuuuust a tiny, teensy little bit... for now.
Do note that while they so cleverly grabbed our attention with this monstrosity of an idea they quickly brought us this new Crimson Harvest thing which is, of course, a test bed for more P2W. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
210
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 05:38:38 -
[5217] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Verminah Helbain wrote:Why did they even bother posting this when it seems they have no intent on replying at all. They're trying to see if they can get away with it. If we blink for a second, lower our guard just a tiny bit or perhaps grow tired of being ever defiant, they'll sneak in P2W juuuuust a tiny, teensy little bit... for now. Do note that while they so cleverly grabbed our attention with this monstrosity of an idea they quickly brought us this new Crimson Harvest thing which is, of course, a test bed for more P2W.
Yep and they threw in that fail alt (Dave Stark) to try and convince any gullible naysayers into thinking " Hey it's the same as Character Bazaar just only easier....cough a tad more expensive". Unfortunately there are a few players in eve who relish this idea. Just as there are professional players in sports who cheat and take steroids for instant improvements in order to be able to compete with the more experience players, the players in eve who agree with this abominable idea are just the same.
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
760
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 07:55:20 -
[5218] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Verminah Helbain wrote:Why did they even bother posting this when it seems they have no intent on replying at all. They're trying to see if they can get away with it. If we blink for a second, lower our guard just a tiny bit or perhaps grow tired of being ever defiant, they'll sneak in P2W juuuuust a tiny, teensy little bit... for now. Do note that while they so cleverly grabbed our attention with this monstrosity of an idea they quickly brought us this new Crimson Harvest thing which is, of course, a test bed for more P2W. Yep and they threw in that fail alt (Dave Stark) to try and convince any gullible naysayers into thinking " Hey it's the same as Character Bazaar just only easier....cough a tad more expensive". Unfortunately there are a few players in eve who relish this idea. Just as there are professional players in sports who cheat and take steroids for instant improvements in order to be able to compete with the more experience players, the players in eve who agree with this abominable idea are just the same. It is coming - As confirmed during CCP Seagulls Vegas presentation.
Whether players want it or not.
This is about CCP making money, it has nothing to do with the health of TQ. Fast money grabs from naive rookies and some existing players alike who think buying SP is an I WIN. Only after they have spent their hard earned money will they come to realize how misleading and false CCP advertising is.
Trivia; Ever watched seagulls on a beach - Thieves of the air, will steal the food right off your plate.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
Why can't CCP see the obvious - Large dominating groups are bad for Eve.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
129
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 09:10:11 -
[5219] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote: Thieves of the air, will steal the food right off your plate.
We could and will do.
Pinky Bear
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Erasmus Grant
High Flyers Northern Coalition.
27
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 09:31:14 -
[5220] - Quote
CCP would be better off selling Neural Remaps and name changes for characters. |
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
129
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 09:39:10 -
[5221] - Quote
Erasmus Grant wrote:CCP would be better off selling Neural Remaps and name changes for characters. We already had this convesation.
Dev blog
Quote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point.
Pinky Bear
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
161
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 09:57:15 -
[5222] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Dev blog Quote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point.
That translated means : Players would be able to customize there characters with very little profit for us so thats not going to happen.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
129
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 10:12:12 -
[5223] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Dev blog Quote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. That translated means : Players would be able to customize there characters with very little profit for us so thats not going to happen. You broke the translator.
Pinky Bear
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
161
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 10:28:44 -
[5224] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Dev blog Quote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. That translated means : Players would be able to customize there characters with very little profit for us so thats not going to happen. You broke the translator.
CCP Rise wrote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. BUT, if you buy the plex of us its fine go ahead and knock yourself out !!!!!
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
129
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 10:33:39 -
[5225] - Quote
There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode
Pinky Bear
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
62
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 12:48:25 -
[5226] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Your back with some more clueless ramblings, A twink is a character that has items that are far superior for its level of intended use, best enchantments armour weapons, so your twink is given t1 ammo ..... your priceless Dror.
Infact seeing as you opened that door, the reason you can't have twinks in this game is we have no locked characters, classes or content, player A plays for 90 days / player B plays for 90 days regardless if they both play the same amount of time or player A logs in every day and player B plays at the weekends only, at the end of the 90 days they both have the same skillpoints to distribute. They still call CS' and MOBA's experienced re-rolls twinks even though they can't an advantage from their other accounts.
If you'd like to find ramblings, maybe you should just go check out your replies on my quite valid interpretations of studies. Did you ever get that email?
Tiberius Heth wrote:Verminah Helbain wrote:Why did they even bother posting this when it seems they have no intent on replying at all. They're trying to see if they can get away with it. If we blink for a second, lower our guard just a tiny bit or perhaps grow tired of being ever defiant, they'll sneak in P2W juuuuust a tiny, teensy little bit... for now. Do note that while they so cleverly grabbed our attention with this monstrosity of an idea they quickly brought us this new Crimson Harvest thing which is, of course, a test bed for more P2W. As stated in the thread, it's no more P2W than the remainder of the game / the bazaar, so would you like to explain why you have a problem with characters getting SP..?
Erasmus Grant wrote:CCP would be better off selling Neural Remaps and name changes for characters. They're trying to get rid of attributes, and if there's really a decent demographic against SP trading, there's no reason those of the same should entertain the idea of renames for PLEX or whatever.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
161
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 13:21:34 -
[5227] - Quote
Dror wrote:They still call CS' and MOBA's experienced re-rolls twinks even though they can't an advantage from their other accounts. " In MMORPGs, twinking refers to a character gaining equipment with the assistance of a higher level character, particularly by giving said low level character higher level equipment that is otherwise unattainable,[2][3][4] or the process of keeping a video game character at a low level while using in-game currency, earned by a high level character, to provide it with superior equipment.[5][6]"
In role-playing video games, particularly MMORPGs, twinking refers to outfitting a new character or player with items or other resources that are not normally available to new or low-level characters. A twink in this usage is a type of powergamer and munchkin. The term can also refer to the twinked character itself (e.g., "My twink has all the best gear."). In its most basic definition, a twink is a character with better gear than one could have easily acquired on one's own.
Twinking is typically done by transferring higher-end equipment from the player's (or their friend's) more-experienced characters (who often have excess gear that would be much more useful to the lower-level character). It can also be done by equipping the character with the best possible gear for their level range, and filling them with end-game enchantments.
Many new players dislike twinking of others' characters, since it gives a big advantage to established players starting a new character.[7] Some new players do not like to have their own characters twinked, as they prefer to earn the equipment for themselves.
It's common for twinking items to be traded at good values due to persistent demand. Sometimes, this will go so far as to inflate twink equipment prices, as high level players are willing to pay more than a newbie would be able to.
Now check out the article If you so wish, As you so like pointing out were not on about FPS, MOBA's either, but i forgot your full of crap theories and only game experiences point to why we should turn EvE into said games don't apply.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
62
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 13:44:09 -
[5228] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:They still call CS' and MOBA's experienced re-rolls twinks even though they can't an advantage from their other accounts. " In MMORPGs, twinking refers to a character gaining equipment with the assistance of a higher level character, particularly by giving said low level character higher level equipment that is otherwise unattainable,[2][3][4] or the process of keeping a video game character at a low level while using in-game currency, earned by a high level character, to provide it with superior equipment.[5][6]" In role-playing video games, particularly MMORPGs, twinking refers to outfitting a new character or player with items or other resources that are not normally available to new or low-level characters. A twink in this usage is a type of powergamer and munchkin. The term can also refer to the twinked character itself (e.g., "My twink has all the best gear."). In its most basic definition, a twink is a character with better gear than one could have easily acquired on one's own. Twinking is typically done by transferring higher-end equipment from the player's (or their friend's) more-experienced characters (who often have excess gear that would be much more useful to the lower-level character). It can also be done by equipping the character with the best possible gear for their level range, and filling them with end-game enchantments. Many new players dislike twinking of others' characters, since it gives a big advantage to established players starting a new character.[7] Some new players do not like to have their own characters twinked, as they prefer to earn the equipment for themselves. It's common for twinking items to be traded at good values due to persistent demand. Sometimes, this will go so far as to inflate twink equipment prices, as high level players are willing to pay more than a newbie would be able to. Now check out the article If you so wish, As you so like pointing out were not on about FPS, MOBA's either, but i forgot your full of crap theories and only game experiences point to why we should turn EvE into said games don't apply. http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/27-appeal-to-definition
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
161
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 13:53:38 -
[5229] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:They still call CS' and MOBA's experienced re-rolls twinks even though they can't an advantage from their other accounts. " In MMORPGs, twinking refers to a character gaining equipment with the assistance of a higher level character, particularly by giving said low level character higher level equipment that is otherwise unattainable,[2][3][4] or the process of keeping a video game character at a low level while using in-game currency, earned by a high level character, to provide it with superior equipment.[5][6]" In role-playing video games, particularly MMORPGs, twinking refers to outfitting a new character or player with items or other resources that are not normally available to new or low-level characters. A twink in this usage is a type of powergamer and munchkin. The term can also refer to the twinked character itself (e.g., "My twink has all the best gear."). In its most basic definition, a twink is a character with better gear than one could have easily acquired on one's own. Twinking is typically done by transferring higher-end equipment from the player's (or their friend's) more-experienced characters (who often have excess gear that would be much more useful to the lower-level character). It can also be done by equipping the character with the best possible gear for their level range, and filling them with end-game enchantments. Many new players dislike twinking of others' characters, since it gives a big advantage to established players starting a new character.[7] Some new players do not like to have their own characters twinked, as they prefer to earn the equipment for themselves. It's common for twinking items to be traded at good values due to persistent demand. Sometimes, this will go so far as to inflate twink equipment prices, as high level players are willing to pay more than a newbie would be able to. Now check out the article If you so wish, As you so like pointing out were not on about FPS, MOBA's either, but i forgot your full of crap theories and only game experiences point to why we should turn EvE into said games don't apply. http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/27-appeal-to-definition
There's no fallacy in my statement in what ever context you want to try to look at it, you stated to give a twink t1 ammo, which indicates your a clueless ignoramus on anything based on MMO experiences. Then to post what you just did gives credence that most of your arguements are either unsubstantiated theories and quotes then cry strawman to deflect.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
130
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 14:13:20 -
[5230] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: There's no fallacy in my statement in what ever context you want to try to look at it,
Too bad for you. So you might be a fraud because of it.
Pinky Bear
|
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
62
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 14:21:17 -
[5231] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:They still call CS' and MOBA's experienced re-rolls twinks even though they can't an advantage from their other accounts. " In MMORPGs, twinking refers to a character gaining equipment with the assistance of a higher level character, particularly by giving said low level character higher level equipment that is otherwise unattainable,[2][3][4] or the process of keeping a video game character at a low level while using in-game currency, earned by a high level character, to provide it with superior equipment.[5][6]" In role-playing video games, particularly MMORPGs, twinking refers to outfitting a new character or player with items or other resources that are not normally available to new or low-level characters. A twink in this usage is a type of powergamer and munchkin. The term can also refer to the twinked character itself (e.g., "My twink has all the best gear."). In its most basic definition, a twink is a character with better gear than one could have easily acquired on one's own. Twinking is typically done by transferring higher-end equipment from the player's (or their friend's) more-experienced characters (who often have excess gear that would be much more useful to the lower-level character). It can also be done by equipping the character with the best possible gear for their level range, and filling them with end-game enchantments. Many new players dislike twinking of others' characters, since it gives a big advantage to established players starting a new character.[7] Some new players do not like to have their own characters twinked, as they prefer to earn the equipment for themselves. It's common for twinking items to be traded at good values due to persistent demand. Sometimes, this will go so far as to inflate twink equipment prices, as high level players are willing to pay more than a newbie would be able to. Now check out the article If you so wish, As you so like pointing out were not on about FPS, MOBA's either, but i forgot your full of crap theories and only game experiences point to why we should turn EvE into said games don't apply. http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/27-appeal-to-definition There's no fallacy in my statement in what ever context you want to try to look at it, you stated to give a twink t1 ammo, which indicates your a clueless ignoramus on anything based on MMO experiences. Then to post what you just did gives credence that most of your arguements are either unsubstantiated theories and quotes then cry strawman to deflect. An appeal to the dictionary is a non-reply.
Another word for it is smurf, but they're used as the same.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
162
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 14:25:06 -
[5232] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:They still call CS' and MOBA's experienced re-rolls twinks even though they can't an advantage from their other accounts. " In MMORPGs, twinking refers to a character gaining equipment with the assistance of a higher level character, particularly by giving said low level character higher level equipment that is otherwise unattainable,[2][3][4] or the process of keeping a video game character at a low level while using in-game currency, earned by a high level character, to provide it with superior equipment.[5][6]" In role-playing video games, particularly MMORPGs, twinking refers to outfitting a new character or player with items or other resources that are not normally available to new or low-level characters. A twink in this usage is a type of powergamer and munchkin. The term can also refer to the twinked character itself (e.g., "My twink has all the best gear."). In its most basic definition, a twink is a character with better gear than one could have easily acquired on one's own. Twinking is typically done by transferring higher-end equipment from the player's (or their friend's) more-experienced characters (who often have excess gear that would be much more useful to the lower-level character). It can also be done by equipping the character with the best possible gear for their level range, and filling them with end-game enchantments. Many new players dislike twinking of others' characters, since it gives a big advantage to established players starting a new character.[7] Some new players do not like to have their own characters twinked, as they prefer to earn the equipment for themselves. It's common for twinking items to be traded at good values due to persistent demand. Sometimes, this will go so far as to inflate twink equipment prices, as high level players are willing to pay more than a newbie would be able to. Now check out the article If you so wish, As you so like pointing out were not on about FPS, MOBA's either, but i forgot your full of crap theories and only game experiences point to why we should turn EvE into said games don't apply. http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/27-appeal-to-definition There's no fallacy in my statement in what ever context you want to try to look at it, you stated to give a twink t1 ammo, which indicates your a clueless ignoramus on anything based on MMO experiences. Then to post what you just did gives credence that most of your arguements are either unsubstantiated theories and quotes then cry strawman to deflect. An appeal to the dictionary is a non-reply. Another word for it is smurf, but they're used as the same. Smurf is a high skilled player who roles a new account to use his skills at a lower level to cause problems, that is not twinking, A twink gains his abilities through higher level gear not personal skill.
Refuted try again.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
62
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 14:34:32 -
[5233] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote: An appeal to the dictionary is a non-reply.
Another word for it is smurf, but they're used as the same.
Smurf is a high skilled player who roles a new account to use his skills at a lower level to cause problems, that is not twinking, A twink gains his abilities through higher level gear not personal skill. Refuted try again. You can't refute claims of common usage. Quit with the pretentious tripe, at least unless you're going to make a point.
"Nuh uh! Games don't use 'twink' to refer to re-rolls!" See how irrelevant that is? Technically speaking, if a "smurf" set his character up with all meta-4 items (which are more expensive), he would be a twink as well.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
162
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 14:42:52 -
[5234] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote: An appeal to the dictionary is a non-reply.
Another word for it is smurf, but they're used as the same.
Smurf is a high skilled player who roles a new account to use his skills at a lower level to cause problems, that is not twinking, A twink gains his abilities through higher level gear not personal skill. Refuted try again. You can't refute claims of common usage. Quit with the pretentious tripe, at least unless you're going to make a point. "Nuh uh! Games don't use 'twink' to refer to re-rolls!" See how irrelevant that is? Technically speaking, if a "smurf" set his character up with all meta-4 items (which are more expensive), he would be a twink as well.
Smurf - High skilled player
Twink - A player that gains advantage by the use of higher level gear.
Anyone can twink, if they have the resources or deep pockets, a Smurf is a person with exceptional skills with weapons, e.g. Rail guns, sniping - quick scope no scope - You cant buy personal skill you doofus.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
62
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 14:52:11 -
[5235] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote: An appeal to the dictionary is a non-reply.
Another word for it is smurf, but they're used as the same.
Smurf is a high skilled player who roles a new account to use his skills at a lower level to cause problems, that is not twinking, A twink gains his abilities through higher level gear not personal skill. Refuted try again. You can't refute claims of common usage. Quit with the pretentious tripe, at least unless you're going to make a point. "Nuh uh! Games don't use 'twink' to refer to re-rolls!" See how irrelevant that is? Technically speaking, if a "smurf" set his character up with all meta-4 items (which are more expensive), he would be a twink as well. Smurf - High skilled player Twink - A player that gains advantage by the use of higher level gear. Anyone can twink, if they have the resources or deep pockets, a Smurf is a person with exceptional skills with weapons, e.g. Rail guns, sniping - quick scope no scope - You cant buy personal skill you doofus. You're arguing semantics. The point stands that a low-SP character would probably lose to that which has the best ammo selection and module effectiveness. We can discuss how that's completely awful for fresh subs, so much that they would probably quit (and for very specific, inherent, psychological reasons) because there's aplenty of resources on the topic.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
162
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 15:03:33 -
[5236] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote: An appeal to the dictionary is a non-reply.
Another word for it is smurf, but they're used as the same.
Smurf is a high skilled player who roles a new account to use his skills at a lower level to cause problems, that is not twinking, A twink gains his abilities through higher level gear not personal skill. Refuted try again. You can't refute claims of common usage. Quit with the pretentious tripe, at least unless you're going to make a point. "Nuh uh! Games don't use 'twink' to refer to re-rolls!" See how irrelevant that is? Technically speaking, if a "smurf" set his character up with all meta-4 items (which are more expensive), he would be a twink as well. Smurf - High skilled player Twink - A player that gains advantage by the use of higher level gear. Anyone can twink, if they have the resources or deep pockets, a Smurf is a person with exceptional skills with weapons, e.g. Rail guns, sniping - quick scope no scope - You cant buy personal skill you doofus. You're arguing semantics. The point stands that a low-SP character would probably lose to that which has the best ammo selection and module effectiveness. We can discuss how that's completely awful for fresh subs, so much that they would probably quit (and for very specific, inherent, psychological reasons) because there's aplenty of resources on the topic. Its not semantics, theyre 2 completely different things.Apart from you in this thread have you seen anyone offering support to your basic destruction of EvE, NO . If you have that sort of grievance take it up in the appropriate place not here, also i have no problem with them removing attribs from the game and setting all in game learning skills so that it improves the speed at whatever level it would be e.g. you wouldnt see them anymore but you have the equivalent base to all being set at 30 then the boost implants giving them another boost - That is not skillpoints though which is YOUR demon.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
62
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 15:13:54 -
[5237] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:You're arguing semantics. The point stands that a low-SP character would probably lose to that which has the best ammo selection and module effectiveness. We can discuss how that's completely awful for fresh subs, so much that they would probably quit (and for very specific, inherent, psychological reasons) because there's aplenty of resources on the topic. Its not semantics, theyre 2 completely different things.Apart from you in this thread have you seen anyone offering support to your basic destruction of EvE, NO . If you have that sort of grievance take it up in the appropriate place not here, also i have no problem with them removing attribs from the game and setting all in game learning skills so that it improves the speed at whatever level it would be e.g. you wouldnt see them anymore but you have the equivalent base to all being set at 30 then the boost implants giving them another boost - That is not skillpoints though which is YOUR demon. Whatever effects the PCU, fresh sub interest, and the amount and intensity of content is a game problem. There seems to be no counter-argument for that.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
167
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 16:10:45 -
[5238] - Quote
Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:You're arguing semantics. The point stands that a low-SP character would probably lose to that which has the best ammo selection and module effectiveness. We can discuss how that's completely awful for fresh subs, so much that they would probably quit (and for very specific, inherent, psychological reasons) because there's aplenty of resources on the topic. Its not semantics, theyre 2 completely different things.Apart from you in this thread have you seen anyone offering support to your basic destruction of EvE, NO . If you have that sort of grievance take it up in the appropriate place not here, also i have no problem with them removing attribs from the game and setting all in game learning skills so that it improves the speed at whatever level it would be e.g. you wouldnt see them anymore but you have the equivalent base to all being set at 30 then the boost implants giving them another boost - That is not skillpoints though which is YOUR demon. Whatever affects the PCU, fresh sub interest, and the amount and intensity of content is a game problem. There seems to be no counter-argument for that. This info was from a MMOData dump in august 2013:
World of Warcraft is taking its second nosedive after a small recovery around oktober 2012. Landing at around 7,7 million subs. Still the biggest MMORPG out there, but at this rate EVE Online may overtake WoW in a couple of years :p
Talking about EVE Online, that is still the example of how to do things in the post - WoW era. While CCP thought they were becoming the dinosaur of the industry, and therefore had to implement a cash shop with micro transactions. They realized their mistakes in time ( after their customers reminded them where their loyalty must lie Riots-in-eve-against-microtransactions ). And turned around and got back on track making EVE Online a better game.
CCP is being rewarded now, with a PCU ( peak concurrent users ) of over 65.000 and over 500.000 monthly playing subscribers and a continued growth every year since release, now more than 10 years ago.
At this moment EVE Online is the second biggest subscription based MMORPG in the west, and the only subscription based MMORPG that is still growing in the west and probably in the world.
If you make a game for gamers, with good features, it will sell and people will pay a monthly fee.
The new PCU for EVE also means it is now the MMORPG with largest shard ( single game world ) in the world, passing Second Life which has now a PCU of around 63.000 players. It will be still a while before the absolute record will be broken tho ( 88.000 PCU in Second Life a few years ago ). This doesnt indicate a problem with Skillpoints but from an action that was taken to alter the game / perception of players. This needs to be remedied not total destruction derby.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
131
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 16:19:36 -
[5239] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dror wrote:You're arguing semantics. The point stands that a low-SP character would probably lose to that which has the best ammo selection and module effectiveness. We can discuss how that's completely awful for fresh subs, so much that they would probably quit (and for very specific, inherent, psychological reasons) because there's aplenty of resources on the topic. Its not semantics, theyre 2 completely different things.Apart from you in this thread have you seen anyone offering support to your basic destruction of EvE, NO . If you have that sort of grievance take it up in the appropriate place not here, also i have no problem with them removing attribs from the game and setting all in game learning skills so that it improves the speed at whatever level it would be e.g. you wouldnt see them anymore but you have the equivalent base to all being set at 30 then the boost implants giving them another boost - That is not skillpoints though which is YOUR demon. Whatever affects the PCU, fresh sub interest, and the amount and intensity of content is a game problem. There seems to be no counter-argument for that. This info was from a MMOData dump in august 2013: World of Warcraft is taking its second nosedive after a small recovery around oktober 2012. Landing at around 7,7 million subs. Still the biggest MMORPG out there, but at this rate EVE Online may overtake WoW in a couple of years :p Talking about EVE Online, that is still the example of how to do things in the post - WoW era. While CCP thought they were becoming the dinosaur of the industry, and therefore had to implement a cash shop with micro transactions. They realized their mistakes in time ( after their customers reminded them where their loyalty must lie Riots-in-eve-against-microtransactions ). And turned around and got back on track making EVE Online a better game. CCP is being rewarded now, with a PCU ( peak concurrent users ) of over 65.000 and over 500.000 monthly playing subscribers and a continued growth every year since release, now more than 10 years ago. At this moment EVE Online is the second biggest subscription based MMORPG in the west, and the only subscription based MMORPG that is still growing in the west and probably in the world. If you make a game for gamers, with good features, it will sell and people will pay a monthly fee. The new PCU for EVE also means it is now the MMORPG with largest shard ( single game world ) in the world, passing Second Life which has now a PCU of around 63.000 players. It will be still a while before the absolute record will be broken tho ( 88.000 PCU in Second Life a few years ago ). This doesnt indicate a problem with Skillpoints but from an action that was taken to alter the game / perception of players. This needs to be remedied not total destruction derby. My word would be last.
Pinky Bear
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A Ingus
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
5
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Posted - 2015.10.31 17:36:30 -
[5240] - Quote
Dror wrote: Whatever affects the PCU, fresh sub interest, and the amount and intensity of content is a game problem. There seems to be no counter-argument for that. Ok, but you seem to think EVE new sub and retention problems are sp based. Where is your evidence? From what I read of your posts there is only your subjective experience and/or anecdotal opinion. You have no statistics or any other survey evidence that is eve based. You simply spout generalized psychological theories about gaming.
So, since that is what you like to talk about, have you investigated delayed gratification v instant gratification and motivation. Is there not general psych research demonstrating that when things are easily obtainable or able to be bought that they lose their appeal against the sense of achievement in something that takes time and effort?
Up to now this game has been about time and effort and a sense of achievement. Introducing accelerators and outright sp purchasing abilities is starting to undermine how the sp system has operated. The character bazaar was a compromise that had to be made to combat character sales as rmt. It did not destroy the foundational system of sp accumulation. The proposed changes do.
My opinion is that the destruction of the sp mechanisms as they have existed in this game will not result in an influx of new players. It will not benefit new players either as much as it may benefit existing players with schemes involving alts. Sure, a few rl rich or willing to pay new players may decide to part with some money to develop their character. But really how many are they going to be?
Meanwhile, other veteran players will be disgusted with CCP for destroying what has made the game different and great. They will and are leaving. Is there enough instant gratification players that will find this game and stay with it for a decade, just as the current vets did?
CCP could advertise the paradigms of time and effort in character development and how it makes this game different and worth playing. But apparently its easier to cater to the current pay to win/free to play bullshit that saturates the market of MMOs. You appear to me to be part of that crowd of players. What ever attracted you to EVE? Why do you want it to become like all those other games you could be playing? |
|
Zozoll Neblyn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 18:02:15 -
[5241] - Quote
Long term subbing is Eve's bread and butter. Seems absolutely foolish to endanger that.
But I like the idea of being able to recycle old characters who didn't work out. Instead of letting us sell the SP to another player, they should allow us to do something else with the SP.
Maybe create implants out of it? Maybe termporary implants that run out after a while but confer a greater than +5 bonus to an attribute?
So instead of buying 500k sp off a player, I could buy an implant that gives them a +10 boost to some attribute for 30 days (or whatever adds up to giving 500k sp when that is the dominant attribute for a skill.)
I'm not fond of being able to buy SP. But would love to be able to sell them!! |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
132
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 18:04:58 -
[5242] - Quote
A Ingus wrote:Up to now this game has been about time and effort and a sense of achievement. Time and effort value will be still present in the game. But I also will have an option to trade my effort(active playing time) to SP. Could you call it instant gratification?
Pinky Bear
|
A Ingus
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 18:14:23 -
[5243] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:A Ingus wrote:Up to now this game has been about time and effort and a sense of achievement. Time and effort value will be still present in the game. But I also will have an option to trade my effort(active playing time) to SP. Could you call it instant gratification? You are only thinking about yourself. And yes I would call it so, for the buyer. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
132
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 18:21:43 -
[5244] - Quote
A Ingus wrote:General Lootit wrote:A Ingus wrote:Up to now this game has been about time and effort and a sense of achievement. Time and effort value will be still present in the game. But I also will have an option to trade my effort(active playing time) to SP. Could you call it instant gratification? You are only thinking about yourself. And yes I would call it so, for the buyer. Yeap, I'm defending my position as you doing it. What buyers? Those who earned his money by working, those who paying for ability to buy PLEX with isk and those who paying CCP for their work?
Pinky Bear
|
Zozoll Neblyn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 18:21:55 -
[5245] - Quote
What would you think of selling SP, but not being able to buy them?
Suppose you could trade SP to create something totally not-SP related, like a module for a ship? I don't mean sell and then buy the module. I mean like use the SP to manufacture something. |
A Ingus
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 18:29:22 -
[5246] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:A Ingus wrote:General Lootit wrote:A Ingus wrote:Up to now this game has been about time and effort and a sense of achievement. Time and effort value will be still present in the game. But I also will have an option to trade my effort(active playing time) to SP. Could you call it instant gratification? You are only thinking about yourself. And yes I would call it so, for the buyer. Yeap, I'm defending my position as you doing it. What buyers? Those who earned his money by working, those who paying for ability to buy PLEX with isk and those who paying CCP for their work? I am not even sure what you are trying to say? Oh, maybe you are making some flippant remark about people who can afford or choose to pay rl cash for sp in a computer game being somehow better workers than others who cannot or will not. If that is the case then I think I will let you rest with that erroneous notion.
As for CCP of course they can at any time choose to get hyper capitalistic about their service and pricing mechanisms. Similarly they can suffer a negative market reaction from their current customers if they do so. Good luck to them in finding a larger, newer, and more loyal customer base out of people who want things immediately, then get quickly bored, and look for the next shiney thing. The next shiney thing that probably will not be something in EVE. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
132
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 18:38:38 -
[5247] - Quote
A Ingus wrote:I am not even sure what you are trying to say? Oh, maybe you are making some flippant remark about people who can afford or choose to pay rl cash for sp in a computer game being somehow better workers than others who cannot or will not. My bad. My point is those who paying with rl cash also make effort to earn money. It's beneficial for CCP and players who buying PLEX with isk.
Pinky Bear
|
Vollhov
Senators of Eridan Red Alliance
374
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 18:43:46 -
[5248] - Quote
Golden PLEX. Further brains (SP) for Golden. Chucks for Golden. Ships for Golden.
Thanks you -í-íP Falcon "that helped to quit EVE"
Grand Empress Jamyl Sarum YC110
Empress capsuleer.
CCP can never come up with such a character as Jamyl Sarum.
This character will die February 6, 2016 17:54 UTC.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
132
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 20:34:30 -
[5249] - Quote
Vollhov wrote:Golden PLEX.Further brains (SP) for Golden. Chucks for Golden. Ships for Golden. a c up b up b a down
Pinky Bear
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
357
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 21:25:44 -
[5250] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:A Ingus wrote:Up to now this game has been about time and effort and a sense of achievement. Time and effort value will be still present in the game.
How would you know, you're **** at this game.
And I really DO mean completely clueless, hilariously terrible and ****. |
|
ISD Buldath
ISD STAR
197
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 21:36:56 -
[5251] - Quote
Quote: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
I have removed the offending post.
~ISD Buldath
Interstellar Services Department
Support, Training and Resources Division
Lt. Commander
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
358
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 21:48:27 -
[5252] - Quote
ISD Buldath wrote:Quote: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated. I have removed the offending post.
We have no community spirit, CCP sold it. |
Jared Khanar
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 23:38:19 -
[5253] - Quote
General Lootit wrote: My bad. My point is those who paying with rl cash also make effort to earn money. It's beneficial for CCP and players who buying PLEX with isk because they cannot or will not to do it with rl money.
You cannot prefer one over the other! From an ingame point of view this is some kind of symbiotic thing if balanced right. Those who pay rl cash to buy what they need ingame, are transfering the burden to grind to the players with time. "Crossing a line" unevenly distributes fun and boredom / frustration between the two. You have to treat them equally - else you risk to drive one side away from your game. And the other will follow!
Yes, without the rich there are no plex for poor players Yes, without the poor players there are no ships, whatever for the rich and also much less content to *pew*...
You need each other, don-¦t you understand? It-¦s in both sides interest to maintain the perception that it does absolutly not matter how you fund your accounts / assets - that the ingame possibilities are equal!
Our manipulated, high plex prices shout: pay less vs. grind more (a self-accelerating downward spiral) SP trading proposal adds: pay a bit more vs. grind more
Please, do not add items into the eve store that affects gameplay. Please, only sell vanity items in the eve store. Please, do not connect the possibility to skip parts of the gameplay experience to additional income. (It-¦s like telling: Ok, we know this is bad, but it stays. just pay and you don-¦t have to deal with it.) Please, do not connect fixes for problems or symptoms to additional income. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
211
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 23:52:32 -
[5254] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:General Lootit wrote: My bad. My point is those who paying with rl cash also make effort to earn money. It's beneficial for CCP and players who buying PLEX with isk because they cannot or will not to do it with rl money.
You cannot prefer one over the other! From an ingame point of view this is some kind of symbiotic thing if balanced right. Those who pay rl cash to buy what they need ingame, are transfering the burden to grind to the players with time. "Crossing a line" unevenly distributes fun and boredom / frustration between the two. You have to treat them equally - else you risk to drive one side away from your game. And the other will follow! Yes, without the rich there are no plex for poor players Yes, without the poor players there are no ships, whatever for the rich and also much less content to *pew*... You need each other, don-¦t you understand? It-¦s in both sides interest to maintain the perception that it does absolutly not matter how you fund your accounts / assets - that the ingame possibilities are equal! Our manipulated, high plex prices shout: pay less vs. grind more (a self-accelerating downward spiral) SP trading proposal adds: pay a bit more vs. grind more Repeat: Please, do not add items into the eve store that affects gameplay. Please, only sell vanity items in the eve store. Please, do not connect the possibility to skip parts of the gameplay experience to additional income. (It-¦s like telling: Ok, we know this is bad, but it stays. just pay and you don-¦t have to deal with it.) Please, do not connect fixes for problems or symptoms to additional income.
You're wasting your time trying to debate with that teenage troll.
|
Jared Khanar
62
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 00:19:03 -
[5255] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote: You're wasting your time trying to debate with that teenage troll.
Have fun with the trolls. We may distract them by starting a discussion like: If a player "pays" his accounts by plexing / grinding for it - isn-¦t it possible that he / she is also a hardworking person with as little time to play as the rich ones? What does this mean for the argument - these have time - the others have money?
Or something like: In a world in which the gap between rich and poor is widening everyday, where there are fewer and fewer riches and more and more poor, does it make sense to choose the minority as a target group?
Where-¦s my beer!? |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
133
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 00:39:46 -
[5256] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote: Where-¦s my beer!?
Have a nice time man
Jared Khanar wrote: Or something like: In a world in which the gap between rich and poor is widening everyday, where there are fewer and fewer riches and more and more poor, does it make sense to choose the minority as a target group?
I grinded on plex and I know that plex was payed by someone else. Maybe he's poor, maybe rich. I don't really know but I hope he get some fun with my isks.
Pinky Bear
|
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
54
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 01:43:37 -
[5257] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:General Lootit wrote: My bad. My point is those who paying with rl cash also make effort to earn money. It's beneficial for CCP and players who buying PLEX with isk because they cannot or will not to do it with rl money.
You cannot prefer one over the other! From an ingame point of view this is some kind of symbiotic thing if balanced right. Those who pay rl cash to buy what they need ingame, are transfering the burden to grind to the players with time. "Crossing a line" unevenly distributes fun and boredom / frustration between the two. You have to treat them equally - else you risk to drive one side away from your game. And the other will follow! Yes, without the rich there are no plex for poor players Yes, without the poor players there are no ships, whatever for the rich and also much less content to *pew*... You need each other, don-¦t you understand? It-¦s in both sides interest to maintain the perception that it does absolutly not matter how you fund your accounts / assets - that the ingame possibilities are equal! Our manipulated, high plex prices shout: pay less vs. grind more (a self-accelerating downward spiral) SP trading proposal adds: pay a bit more vs. grind more Repeat: Please, do not add items into the eve store that affects gameplay. Please, only sell vanity items in the eve store. Please, do not connect the possibility to skip parts of the gameplay experience to additional income. (It-¦s like telling: Ok, we know this is bad, but it stays. just pay and you don-¦t have to deal with it.) Please, do not connect fixes for problems or symptoms to additional income.
What a waste of a post. People having more skill points or redistributing their current skill points doesn't affect anything in game at all. Does it not sit well with people like yourself holding on to an archaic and antiquated system, probably not. But it's not game ending or breaking like all the eve drama queens would like people to believe. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 03:29:12 -
[5258] - Quote
A Ingus wrote:Up to now this game has been about time and effort and a sense of achievement. Introducing accelerators and outright sp purchasing abilities is starting to undermine how the sp system has operated. SP is achieved in EVE by waiting while being subscribed to the game. There is precisely and exactly zero achievement attached to SP in EVE, as such. You can skill to perfection in EVE without ever doing anything other than: selling one PLEX to get money, buying all skill books, and then just endlessly adding skill queue entries. In fact, you don't even have to know what any of these skills mean or do. That would help you to shorten wait time for some purpose or the other. But if you are prepared to just sub for a decade, you might as well wait and skill at random. It does not matter.
It is of course an achievement if you can grind enough ISK to pay for your subscription. But that enables your game play generally, it is not specific to SP. It is also perhaps some achievement to arrange your skill training ideally for your purposes. But that's more an achievement in dealing with adversity brought about by the skill system. And frankly, for most players that is fairly irrelevant. The beginners now get a pre-designed package that deals with the basics, for a few months thereafter they will certainly get by simply by checking certificates, mastery levels and requirements for fitting - all info the game readily supplies - and then many people will end up using skill plans designed by others, by their corp or found on the net. I guess some corp theorists will have a sense of achievement in figuring out the minimal training path from newbie to suicide ganker or such. But that sort of meta-gaming is certainly not what most EVE players spend their time with.
What SP is in EVE is a lock-out system, that hides game content from players who have not subscribed long enough. It is basically "pay to get content". Certain things you cannot do unless you have the right kind of ship with the right kind of fit. And to get those you need the right skills, which you get by subscribing for long enough. That's all it really is. Notably this lock-out system so far was more or less linear, since wait time more or less directly translated into SP (with some mild modifiers through implants etc.). What CCP is doing now is quite simply to extend nonlinearly the very same principle of "pay to get content" which is currently in effect. Simply put, you will be able to pay more (or grind more) to get past the content lock-out more quickly. Thank God, for the linear system truly is a major pain in the ass for anybody starting with EVE!
And the reason why people complain so bitterly about all this is largely because the lock-out system has generated an artificial hierarchy of haves and have-nots. Artificial because this is not necessarily a hierarchy of true skill at all, it is simply one of SP and lock-outs. No matter how good or bad a player somebody might be, if they have subscribed for many years they can do almost anything in EVE (at least they can fail at it). No matter how good or bad a younger player might be, they cannot. It is basically a kind of "time aristocracy". And CCP has just announced that the rich (or grindy) will be able to buy their way into this artificial "time aristocracy". Guess who is complaining endlessly about that...
Somewhere in this massive thread a Dev suggested that perhaps a distinction could be made between "natural" SP (i.e., essentially the equivalent to real subscription time) and "artificial" SP (i.e., nonlinear accelerated or added). A distinction with no direct effect on game play, but visible to all. I think this is the best way forward. It allows veterans to keep whatever pride and status they wish to attach to having paid and played for a long time. And it allows the rich or dedicated grinders to breeze past the lock-outs to the game content they actually want.
"Oh, but you should not be able to access the game content you want that easily!" Why not? "I have suffered, so you must suffer too" is not a valid answer to that. "But you will miss all the best parts of the gaming experience, the blissful release after endless waiting!" Tell you what, if you are hooked on some sort of "Waiting for Godot" masochism, good on you. Totally, enjoy it. Wait a little longer for ... whatever is next. But how about letting me be the judge of how I would like to enjoy EVE? And how about not screaming in rage at CCP simply for taking my money for that? It's what business do... |
A Ingus
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
53
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 04:03:02 -
[5259] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote: stuff You have been playing since August. You somehow think you speak for a great multitude of new players. You think that the sp system of this game holds you down.
I am having difficulty trying to understand why you even came to this game in the first place, let alone why you want to change it so fundamentally. Change it to be like what? What other game would you like it to be? Do you think two months is a fair attempt to appreciate this game, the way it is?
Many that have played this game the way it is for years don't like how it may become. And they will leave, in droves. Will you stay for almost a decade? Will all that multitude of players you think you represent stay in the game for years once they can buy sp?
Two months and so much to say about how this game should change to suit your expectations. |
Garett Rootarian
30plus Fidelas Constans
3
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 04:51:06 -
[5260] - Quote
How about people gamble for SP. Small/Medium wagers for big rewards like cutting down that level 5 in half. Maybe with that new science program.
We've had cloning in the South for years. It's called cousins.
Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and it's better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring
|
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
152
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 05:59:25 -
[5261] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote: SP is achieved in EVE by waiting while being subscribed to the game. There is precisely and exactly zero achievement attached to SP in EVE
You understand enough to notice this, but not enough to understand why this is important, maybe when you've been here a little longer you will get it.
Just as a disclaimer, I think new guys should get more SP or have requirements to access ships/mods lowered, I just think selling SPs is about as dumb a way to do it as possible.
|
Anna Ohu
The Iron Bank and Trust
2
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 06:28:13 -
[5262] - Quote
#$%^%^**&%%^ NOOOOOOoooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am so against the ability to train what ever skill and sell it as an un-allocated skill points !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NO NO NO NO! (where is the mad emote with the smoke rolling out the top of it's head)
I would be a little better with being able to trade/sell specific skills and levels, say like selling Mining Upgrades levels 1, 2, and 3 for x amount of isk.
by allowing the gentrification of skills you devalue ALL the skills. And those of us that have gone through the grind of getting to where we have, and put in the time, your saying FU to us.
and combat skills should be more expensive than indy skills (just as the combat implants are more expensive than indy implants), under no circumstance should indy skills be convertible into combat skills or vice versa. Yea you can extract the mining upgrade levels and sell them and take what you get and go buy large auto cannon levels, but no, no, no "generic skill points"
and stil the whole if your between such and such you get x amount more is such BS! If you want more players to come to the game then you need to diversify the game to appeal to a wider base of players, not dumb it down so that every whiny ADD three year old will play it. (and yes i get to trash on ADD ADHD because have to deal with it on daily basis, and bad grammar and spelling is my birthright i'm American)
So how bout this plan: You all sell extractor packs that contain the implant connection device and the Memory/knowledge goo vial, you can then extract any skill into that vial weather it be level 4-5, lvl 1, lvl 3 or lvl 1-3 is the sellers choice, and it can be trade on the market or in contracts and the extractor packs can be bought for isk/aur/or cash this way only the skill that has been trained is sold/injected skills keep there value and new players can skill buy hundreds of plex, sell them and go bonkers buying skills, or even older players can do it too. But keep the character trading too.
|
Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group
170
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 08:14:13 -
[5263] - Quote
So, still no dev replies for days now. The only concern that was replied to is the issue of prestige which imho is a non issue.
No explanation why all negative feed back was dismissed, lumped into "do not like change" or about seagull's remark that this change is need for the game. So I'm calling it what it looks like, propaganda.
These changes being established players and established corps. Not the supposed new players. |
Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group
170
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 08:18:38 -
[5264] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote: Rant about not having SP
If you think you will enjoy this game more with more skill points, just quit now. It's not a better game when you can fly more ships.
If you can't enjoy it for what it is with a few million sp, you won't enjoy it more with 100m, imho. |
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
45
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 10:12:34 -
[5265] - Quote
Malice Redeemer wrote:So, still no dev replies for days now. The only concern that was replied to is the issue of prestige which imho is a non issue.
They go quiet while they judge whether they can afford to ignore the player-base.
|
Jared Khanar
64
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 10:22:26 -
[5266] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:General Lootit wrote: My bad. My point is those who paying with rl cash also make effort to earn money. It's beneficial for CCP and players who buying PLEX with isk because they cannot or will not to do it with rl money.
You cannot prefer one over the other! From an ingame point of view this is some kind of symbiotic thing if balanced right. Those who pay rl cash to buy what they need ingame, are transfering the burden to grind to the players with time. "Crossing a line" unevenly distributes fun and boredom / frustration between the two. You have to treat them equally - else you risk to drive one side away from your game. And the other will follow! [... blah...] What a waste of a post. People having more skill points or redistributing their current skill points doesn't affect anything in game at all. Does it not sit well with people like yourself holding on to an archaic and antiquated system, probably not. But it's not game ending or breaking like all the eve drama queens would like people to believe.
Ah, what a waste of a post I-¦m not against changing the sp system. I-¦m against something else... Please train up your brain ;) |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
171
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 11:01:32 -
[5267] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Ah, what a waste of a post. I-¦m not against changing the sp system. I welcome the devs to fix any problems it may have, or change it completly - doesn-¦t matter to me. I-¦m against something else... if you are not able to understand, please skill "I may think about this a bit longer" up to V We can't we need it now!! we don't have time to wait for level 5 skills to complete
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
134
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 11:06:46 -
[5268] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Malice Redeemer wrote:So, still no dev replies for days now. The only concern that was replied to is the issue of prestige which imho is a non issue.
They go quiet while they judge whether they can afford to ignore the player-base. Judgment day is coming. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts. And I looked and behold, a pale horse, and it's name it said on him was UAxDEATH, and Hell followed with him.
Pinky Bear
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
178
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 15:35:03 -
[5269] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Amanda Orion wrote:Malice Redeemer wrote:So, still no dev replies for days now. The only concern that was replied to is the issue of prestige which imho is a non issue.
They go quiet while they judge whether they can afford to ignore the player-base. Judgment day is coming. And I heard, as it were, the noise of thunder: one of the four beasts saying: " Come and see." And I saw. And behold, a white horse. ... And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts. And I looked and behold, a pale horse, and it's name it said on him was UAxDEATH, and Hell followed with him.
Just for you General Lootit Image !!!
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
134
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 15:50:57 -
[5270] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Amanda Orion wrote:Malice Redeemer wrote:So, still no dev replies for days now. The only concern that was replied to is the issue of prestige which imho is a non issue.
They go quiet while they judge whether they can afford to ignore the player-base. Judgment day is coming. And I heard, as it were, the noise of thunder: one of the four beasts saying: " Come and see." And I saw. And behold, a white horse. ... And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts. And I looked and behold, a pale horse, and it's name it said on him was UAxDEATH, and Hell followed with him. Just for you General Lootit Image !!! Thats was funny. Good boy.
Pinky Bear
|
|
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy Caldari State
262
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 16:25:45 -
[5271] - Quote
I support the idea of being able to sell individual skills and levels, but I think the skill MUST have been trained in REAL time on an account at SOME POINT, unallocated skill points is not a good way to go in my opinion. Especially if older toons are going to be paying 10 times more than a new guy.
If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
134
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 16:50:07 -
[5272] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote: You're wasting your time trying to debate with that teenage troll.
I'm just a loner baby...
Pinky Bear
|
Sair Dontis
Phoenix Dawn LLC Rabbit Wholes
6
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 17:17:45 -
[5273] - Quote
Moonlit Raid wrote:I support the idea of being able to sell individual skills and levels, but I think the skill MUST have been trained in REAL time on an account at SOME POINT, unallocated skill points is not a good way to go in my opinion. Especially if older toons are going to be paying 10 times more than a new guy.
Very, Very good point. It could unbalance the whole fun and great system. Just a newbie humble and honest opinion. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy Caldari State
263
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 17:58:00 -
[5274] - Quote
Sair Dontis wrote:Moonlit Raid wrote:I support the idea of being able to sell individual skills and levels, but I think the skill MUST have been trained in REAL time on an account at SOME POINT, unallocated skill points is not a good way to go in my opinion. Especially if older toons are going to be paying 10 times more than a new guy. Very, Very good point. It could unbalance the whole fun and great system. Just a newbie humble and honest opinion. I just think my idea is essentially what the system currently has, but is more efficient, and more importantly it's no more pay to win than the current system as all sp already exists, it's just being re-allocated.
If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.
|
Verminah Helbain
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 18:36:04 -
[5275] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:ISD Buldath wrote:Quote: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated. I have removed the offending post. We have no community spirit, CCP sold it. since they are so fond of money, they can buy muy community spirit for 30 plex. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
55
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 20:11:18 -
[5276] - Quote
A Ingus wrote:Tristan Agion wrote: stuff You have been playing since August. You somehow think you speak for a great multitude of new players. You think that the sp system of this game holds you down. I am having difficulty trying to understand why you even came to this game in the first place, let alone why you want to change it so fundamentally. Change it to be like what? What other game would you like it to be? Do you think two months is a fair attempt to appreciate this game, the way it is? Many that have played this game the way it is for years don't like how it may become. And they will leave, in droves. Will you stay for almost a decade? Will all that multitude of players you think you represent stay in the game for years once they can buy sp? Two months and so much to say about how this game should change to suit your expectations.
His stuff is pretty accurate and you're troll post his hilarious. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
55
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 20:16:13 -
[5277] - Quote
Moonlit Raid wrote:I support the idea of being able to sell individual skills and levels, but I think the skill MUST have been trained in REAL time on an account at SOME POINT, unallocated skill points is not a good way to go in my opinion. Especially if older toons are going to be paying 10 times more than a new guy.
I don't understand your post? CCP isn't pulling skill points out of the air and adding them to the game. All the skill points that can be bought and sold must come from someone who has done the legwork to train said skills in game already. Or are you suggesting that you have a character on an account that has already trained the skills you want to add to a new character? If so thats pretty pointless and not a good idea since that will affect the target audience for this to being with being newbies. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
55
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 20:19:53 -
[5278] - Quote
Anna Ohu wrote:#$%^%^**&%%^ NOOOOOOoooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am so against the ability to train what ever skill and sell it as an un-allocated skill points !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NO NO NO NO! (where is the mad emote with the smoke rolling out the top of it's head)
I would be a little better with being able to trade/sell specific skills and levels, say like selling Mining Upgrades levels 1, 2, and 3 for x amount of isk.
by allowing the gentrification of skills you devalue ALL the skills. And those of us that have gone through the grind of getting to where we have, and put in the time, your saying FU to us.
and combat skills should be more expensive than indy skills (just as the combat implants are more expensive than indy implants), under no circumstance should indy skills be convertible into combat skills or vice versa. Yea you can extract the mining upgrade levels and sell them and take what you get and go buy large auto cannon levels, but no, no, no "generic skill points"
and stil the whole if your between such and such you get x amount more is such BS! If you want more players to come to the game then you need to diversify the game to appeal to a wider base of players, not dumb it down so that every whiny ADD three year old will play it. (and yes i get to trash on ADD ADHD because have to deal with it on daily basis, and bad grammar and spelling is my birthright i'm American)
So how bout this plan: You all sell extractor packs that contain the implant connection device and the Memory/knowledge goo vial, you can then extract any skill into that vial weather it be level 4-5, lvl 1, lvl 3 or lvl 1-3 is the sellers choice, and it can be trade on the market or in contracts and the extractor packs can be bought for isk/aur/or cash this way only the skill that has been trained is sold/injected skills keep there value and new players can skill buy hundreds of plex, sell them and go bonkers buying skills, or even older players can do it too. But keep the character trading too.
Due to the temper tantrums in the beginning I didn't even read your post. That said please let the tears flow. Thank you for this as I do feel a little parched today. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
178
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 21:34:48 -
[5279] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Due to the temper tantrums in the beginning I didn't even read your post. That said please let the tears flow. Thank you for this as I do feel a little parched today.
Leonardo Adami wrote:What a waste of a post. People having more skill points or redistributing their current skill points doesn't affect anything in game at all. Does it not sit well with people like yourself holding on to an archaic and antiquated system, probably not. But it's not game ending or breaking like all the eve drama queens would like people to believe.
Leonardo Adami wrote:Delicious tears you have QQ moar plzkthxbai
Leonardo Adami wrote:After you clean yourself up from all the vomit you've spewed please elaborate on this.
Leonardo Adami wrote:His stuff is pretty accurate and you're troll post his hilarious. You call A Ingus a troll, yet you make comments like this At least he offers some insight which is more than this verbal diarrhea.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Jared Khanar
69
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 21:39:01 -
[5280] - Quote
Reading a bit through the capital change devblog I found something I am waiting for since this SP trading announcement ... arrived. Sadly I have overlooked it until now
https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/reworking-capital-ships-and-thus-it-begins/
Quote: All existing capital sized modules will be getting a full set of Meta, Tech 2, and Faction variants. Yes, this includes Tech 2 guns (and the skills for them). We're also introducing a bunch of new modules
Player: We want to use the new, reworked capitals ccp: not with your current skills, bro player: what are we gonna do now? wait? fu ccp: guess what ... we have an idea... |
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
762
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 21:47:15 -
[5281] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote: Thieves of the air, will steal the food right off your plate.
We could and will do. And you wonder why people call you the worst troll on EveO.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
Why can't CCP see the obvious - Large dominating groups are bad for Eve.
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
762
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 21:58:15 -
[5282] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Reading a bit through the capital change devblog I found something I am waiting for since this SP trading announcement ... arrived. Sadly I have overlooked it until now https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/reworking-capital-ships-and-thus-it-begins/ Quote: All existing capital sized modules will be getting a full set of Meta, Tech 2, and Faction variants. Yes, this includes Tech 2 guns (and the skills for them). We're also introducing a bunch of new modules
Player: We want to use the new, reworked capitals ccp: not with your current skills, bro player: what are we gonna do now? wait? fu ccp: guess what ... we have an idea... You really think older players are going to waste billions of isk adding 50k SP at a time to 3mil Sp skills? Roughly 30 bil isk per skill - Yeah that sounds right - CCP is balancing capitals for only the richest and largest groups to use. They can afford it.
Very clever CCP - very clever indeed..
All I want is for CCP to refund all the capital skills I have wasted time training. No point selling them - The isk would have gone towards another capital - Which I will no longer be able to use.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
Why can't CCP see the obvious - Large dominating groups are bad for Eve.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
178
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 21:58:59 -
[5283] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Reading a bit through the capital change devblog I found something I am waiting for since this SP trading announcement ... arrived. Sadly I have overlooked it until now https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/reworking-capital-ships-and-thus-it-begins/ Quote: All existing capital sized modules will be getting a full set of Meta, Tech 2, and Faction variants. Yes, this includes Tech 2 guns (and the skills for them). We're also introducing a bunch of new modules
Player: We want to use the new, reworked capitals ccp: not with your current skills, bro player: what are we gonna do now? wait? fu ccp: guess what ... we have an idea... Looking at those new DD weapons made me LMFAO, Have they bought some blizzard reject in. They look more like raid boss mechanics than weapons now. Mana drain, Hefty swipe teleport and dont stand in the fire ..... Just need GTFO addon now so you keep out the area of effects
Seeing that and whats happening in this thread over skillpoints this is looking grim.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
135
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 22:00:10 -
[5284] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:General Lootit wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote: Thieves of the air, will steal the food right off your plate.
We could and will do. And you wonder why people call you the worst troll on EveO. Because you only second worst troll after me?
Pinky Bear
|
Jared Khanar
69
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 22:20:32 -
[5285] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote: You really think older players are going to waste billions of isk adding 50k SP at a time to 3mil Sp skills? Roughly 30 bil isk per skill - Yeah that sounds right - CCP is balancing capitals for only the richest and largest groups to use. They can afford it.
Very clever CCP - very clever indeed..
All I want is for CCP to refund all the capital skills I have wasted time training. No point selling them - The isk would have gone towards another capital - Which I will no longer be able to use.
Hope I understood you right:
Hm don-¦t know. If you are in war every benefit may be essential. From my point of view: if it means i have to burn 90% of my investments to get the advantage i need - why not? It-¦s not about saving values - value does never matter - it-¦s about domination. And if an alliance is able to utilize the reworked capitals and the new modules / guns / whatever much faster than it-¦s opponents... ^^
Though I don-¦t know how many SPs are needed to skill into the new capital / gun skills, how many skills will come, a.s.o. atm. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
55
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 23:10:49 -
[5286] - Quote
You call A Ingus a troll, yet you make comments like this At least he offers some insight which is more than this verbal diarrhea.[/quote]
Verbal diarrhea, how cute. Where you able to come up that on your own or did you have to phone a friend? And no one has provided a legitment reason as to why this shouldn't be a feature. You know why? Everything everyone says is pure speculation until the feature is in game or we have set concrete numbers to work with. The majority is omg, noo CCP you'll ruin my game oh noes...please that's the true what did you call verbal diarrhea I'm these forums. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1699
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 23:13:59 -
[5287] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Reading a bit through the capital change devblog I found something I am waiting for since this SP trading announcement ... arrived. Sadly I have overlooked it until now https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/reworking-capital-ships-and-thus-it-begins/ Quote: All existing capital sized modules will be getting a full set of Meta, Tech 2, and Faction variants. Yes, this includes Tech 2 guns (and the skills for them). We're also introducing a bunch of new modules
Player: We want to use the new, reworked capitals ccp: not with your current skills, bro player: what are we gonna do now? wait? fu ccp: guess what ... we have an idea... You really think older players are going to waste billions of isk adding 50k SP at a time to 3mil Sp skills? Roughly 30 bil isk per skill - Yeah that sounds right - CCP is balancing capitals for only the richest and largest groups to use. They can afford it. Very clever CCP - very clever indeed.. All I want is for CCP to refund all the capital skills I have wasted time training. No point selling them - The isk would have gone towards another capital - Which I will no longer be able to use. It's funny really, because the same method of getting any new skills for the Force Aux and new mods would still be there even if this mechanic never see the light of day.
Just train them as one would since 2003. For current cap pilots that should be a minimal train. No need for billions of isk on SP packets. Just wait a couple weeks. I thought it pretty obvious that the diminishing returns were designed specifically to make sp packets NOT appeal to this situation.
As for not being able to use a new cap, seems like a choice not something you are being denied so why refund you? |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy Caldari State
263
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 23:38:37 -
[5288] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Moonlit Raid wrote:I support the idea of being able to sell individual skills and levels, but I think the skill MUST have been trained in REAL time on an account at SOME POINT, unallocated skill points is not a good way to go in my opinion. Especially if older toons are going to be paying 10 times more than a new guy. I don't understand your post? CCP isn't pulling skill points out of the air and adding them to the game. All the skill points that can be bought and sold must come from someone who has done the legwork to train said skills in game already. Or are you suggesting that you have a character on an account that has already trained the skills you want to add to a new character? If so thats pretty pointless and not a good idea since that will affect the target audience for this to being with being newbies. What I mean is that the skill points are not given away "raw" but are sold as a level in a skill. So mining sp cannot be turned into tactical weapon reconfiguration sp. IMHO this will greatly reduce the foreseeable problem of rich vets just buying "all the skills." And still maintaining low level skill availability for the new guys.
If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
763
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 23:42:52 -
[5289] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Reading a bit through the capital change devblog I found something I am waiting for since this SP trading announcement ... arrived. Sadly I have overlooked it until now https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/reworking-capital-ships-and-thus-it-begins/ Quote: All existing capital sized modules will be getting a full set of Meta, Tech 2, and Faction variants. Yes, this includes Tech 2 guns (and the skills for them). We're also introducing a bunch of new modules
Player: We want to use the new, reworked capitals ccp: not with your current skills, bro player: what are we gonna do now? wait? fu ccp: guess what ... we have an idea... You really think older players are going to waste billions of isk adding 50k SP at a time to 3mil Sp skills? Roughly 30 bil isk per skill - Yeah that sounds right - CCP is balancing capitals for only the richest and largest groups to use. They can afford it. Very clever CCP - very clever indeed.. All I want is for CCP to refund all the capital skills I have wasted time training. No point selling them - The isk would have gone towards another capital - Which I will no longer be able to use. It's funny really, because the same method of getting any new skills for the Force Aux and new mods would still be there even if this mechanic never see the light of day: Just train them as one would since 2003. For current cap pilots that should be a minimal train. No need for billions of isk on SP packets. Just wait a couple weeks. I thought it pretty obvious that the diminishing returns were designed specifically to make sp packets NOT appeal to this situation. As for not being able to use a new cap, seems like a choice not something you are being denied so why refund you? If the only way I can with even a moderate chance of survival using caps is to join a mega group - Then I'd like those skill points to put into something I can use.
And do you really think diminishing returns will stop the elite rich from training required skills as quickly as possible?
Minimal train?? Armor plates + T2 armor plates, Shield extenders + T2 shield extenders, T2 remote reps, along with the actual skill to fly a Fax. That's just to fly Logi, add in gunnery + new armor and or shield skills - there will be nothing minimal about training for these changes. I'd be surprised if any of these skills is below rank 8 - so around 30 days each. The Fax is likely to be the same as a titan, so around 65 days for level 5, which will be the required minimum for effective use.
Now you tell me - Are the richest players in the game with the biggest toys, going to wait a few months before they can guarantee their ability to win, or are they going to skill up as quickly as possible. 30 bil to some of these guys wouldn't dent their wallets, they will use isk to maintain their position.
Realistically all you need to do is trash one of the alts you no longer use - Create Sp packets from an alt you don't use, put them on your chosen capital pilot - Your only cost is the empty SP packets, which will likely be pretty cheap compared to waiting months to fly your caps effectively again.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
Why can't CCP see the obvious - Large dominating groups are bad for Eve.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 00:32:59 -
[5290] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: I thought it pretty obvious that the diminishing returns were designed specifically to make sp packets NOT appeal to this situation. People are obsessed about 1 day 300mil SP characters
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 00:45:56 -
[5291] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote: level 5, which will be the required minimum for effective use. Amazing, you've got it all down.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Odd Codie
Twin Paths Forging and Fabrication
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 01:06:49 -
[5292] - Quote
This is an obvious good idea that will help pilots become more function faster, while not ruining the prestige of the SP system.
Yes, yes, 100 times yes.
Me having to wait 80 days for cap ship training (no this is not my main), with a 30mil sp toon and all the ISK to set it up and painfully annoying. It literally makes the game not fun in many aspects.
Even as giddy as I am about it, I don't see myself using it all the time... just here and there. |
A Ingus
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
65
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 01:22:27 -
[5293] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:You call A Ingus a troll, yet you make comments like this At least he offers some insight which is more than this verbal diarrhea. Verbal diarrhea, how cute. Where you able to come up that on your own or did you have to phone a friend? And no one has provided a legitment reason as to why this shouldn't be a feature. You know why? Everything everyone says is pure speculation until the feature is in game or we have set concrete numbers to work with. The majority is omg, noo CCP you'll ruin my game oh noes...please that's the true what did you call verbal diarrhea I'm these forums. Its ok Levi. Ive found after many years of playing this game and reading the forums, that the people who quickly whip out the troll accusation in an ad personam really don't have any better argument. Also, posting in this manner with a newb corp character is often another indication of someone who really is rather sad in one way or another.
But, true we don't know what stats CCP is looking at. However, instead of figuring out a way to make the character bazaar work, such as allowing a name change mechanism, or some easy public way for people to know that a character was sold, and thus address some of the problems cited by CCP Rise, they came up with this thing that will screw with how individual characters skill up in the game. It will also favor expenditures of rl cash in one way or another which heretofore has not been so directly in the game.
That is why people who have been playing this game for years and appreciate the purity of the existing sp system post against the op, and maybe why short eve lifetime newb corp alts post in favor of the op. |
Odd Codie
Twin Paths Forging and Fabrication
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 01:33:29 -
[5294] - Quote
A Ingus wrote:That is why people who have been playing this game for years and appreciate the purity of the existing sp system post against the op, and maybe why short eve lifetime newb corp alts post in favor of the op.
Those long term players should also realize the value of new blood and that the game does not belong solely to you but to everyone who has paid $15/month.
It's awesome for you and sucks for the rest which drives people out of the game because they don't want to wait 50 days for a decent mining ship... or whatever.
The reality is, a new SP system that degrades steeply past 80mil SP will not drive a single long term player out of the game, but will attract a large number of new players to play and younger players to get out of high sec to "real systems" in 0 and below, which is what all the long term null sec guys whine about, right?
Stop carebearing etc etc. Well, now you get your wish and those without skills can come out to join you. And CCP gets more money which leads to more game features.
Seems like an obvious win / win to me. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1702
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 01:44:47 -
[5295] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:If the only way I can with even a moderate chance of survival using caps is to join a mega group - Then I'd like those skill points to put into something I can use. The only way you'd only be able to survive in caps by joining mega groups is only using caps against other mega groups, in which case your choice of target selection isn't something CCP should compensate.
Sgt Ocker wrote:And do you really think diminishing returns will stop the elite rich from training required skills as quickly as possible? Yes, they probably didn't get mega rich by throwing vast resources into 0 return investments. If we're looking at what simply can be done then sure, this becomes a concern, but if we look at what's actually sane to do that becomes a lot less of a concern.
Sgt Ocker wrote:Minimal train?? Armor plates + T2 armor plates, Shield extenders + T2 shield extenders, T2 remote reps, along with the actual skill to fly a Fax. That's just to fly Logi, add in gunnery + new armor and or shield skills - there will be nothing minimal about training for these changes. I'd be surprised if any of these skills is below rank 8 - so around 30 days each. The Fax is likely to be the same as a titan, so around 65 days for level 5, which will be the required minimum for effective use.
Now you tell me - Are the richest players in the game with the biggest toys, going to wait a few months before they can guarantee their ability to win, or are they going to skill up as quickly as possible. 30 bil to some of these guys wouldn't dent their wallets, they will use isk to maintain their position.
Realistically all you need to do is trash one of the alts you no longer use - Create Sp packets from an alt you don't use, put them on your chosen capital pilot - Your only cost is the empty SP packets, which will likely be pretty cheap compared to waiting months to fly your caps effectively again. How realistic is it to say every cap pilot has 60mill-100mill+ alts sitting around that their willing to part with to max out a series of 8x skills + a 16x skill (assuming your estimates are correct, which is a pretty big assumption) and further is going to invest in the extractors to do so (which we still haven't seen any idea where they would be priced), or the likelyhood the necessary billions of SP to meet their collective demands being on the market in ready supply that the majority of cap pilots could obtain?
One or both need to be true for this scenario you created to be remotely true. Otherwise you have a number of pilots that can't simply bypass the training and the space-rich not needing to because that "competitive" bar hasn't actually been raised.
At the coalition level I'd be hard pressed to believe that hundreds of cap pilots will be floated 10's of billions of isk worth of sp on the individual level (Assuming 1 16x and 2 8x skills to V (8,192,000 SP = 164 extractors @50k SP each * 300mill isk [common price estimate for the "cost" of 500k SP] = 49.2bill/pilot)).
Either these coalitions are dropping trillions of isk or the benchmark of "competitive" isn't moving to all things at V. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
55
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 01:52:47 -
[5296] - Quote
A Ingus wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:You call A Ingus a troll, yet you make comments like this At least he offers some insight which is more than this verbal diarrhea. Verbal diarrhea, how cute. Where you able to come up that on your own or did you have to phone a friend? And no one has provided a legitment reason as to why this shouldn't be a feature. You know why? Everything everyone says is pure speculation until the feature is in game or we have set concrete numbers to work with. The majority is omg, noo CCP you'll ruin my game oh noes...please that's the true what did you call verbal diarrhea I'm these forums. Its ok Levi. Ive found after many years of playing this game and reading the forums, that the people who quickly whip out the troll accusation in an ad personam really don't have any better argument. Also, posting in this manner with a newb corp character is often another indication of someone who really is rather sad in one way or another. But, true we don't know what stats CCP is looking at. However, instead of figuring out a way to make the character bazaar work, such as allowing a name change mechanism, or some easy public way for people to know that a character was sold, and thus address some of the problems cited by CCP Rise, they came up with this thing that will screw with how individual characters skill up in the game. It will also favor expenditures of rl cash in one way or another which heretofore has not been so directly in the game. That is why people who have been playing this game for years and appreciate the purity of the existing sp system post against the op, and maybe why short eve lifetime newb corp alts post in favor of the op.
The character bazaar works, there isn't anything wrong with it. It makes no sense to tinker with it at all. Further more, plex requires the expenditure of real life cash. People pay money for plex, sell plex for isk, buy character off the bazaar. So no matter what real life cash is being used, this just adds more diversity to the way it's spent for basically the same thing, skill points.
People appreciate the current skill point system because it completely favors those who have been here for years and regardless of what anyone says having fewer skill points really does put the new player at a distinct disadvantage when compared to an old player with no way to level the playing field. This is off putting and CCP clearly is beginning to see this and are preparing to take steps to help with this issue.
All of your arguements have zero validity behind them hence why I call you a troll. I'll stop that though, please present some valid arguements and let the good ol debate begin. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 03:31:14 -
[5297] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:People appreciate the current skill point system because it completely favors those who have been here for years and regardless of what anyone says having fewer skill points really does put the new player at a distinct disadvantage when compared to an old player with no way to level the playing field. This is off putting and CCP clearly is beginning to see this and are preparing to take steps to help with this issue. Everyone who exists has an advantage over everyone who isn't here yet
This isn't turning into a pro-choice debate is it, I like the SP packet choice
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
214
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 03:43:47 -
[5298] - Quote
Odd Codie wrote:This is an obvious good idea that will help pilots become more function faster, while not ruining the prestige of the SP system.
Yes, yes, 100 times yes.
Me having to wait 80 days for cap ship training (no this is not my main), with a 30mil sp toon and all the ISK to set it up and painfully annoying. It literally makes the game not fun in many aspects.
Even as giddy as I am about it, I don't see myself using it all the time... just here and there.
Wrong, you'll become lazy and won't even pay that much attention to your skill queue anymore. You'll be spending most of your time grinding for isk like never before and drugging down all the SP you can get your addicted hands on. After you've piled up over 100 mill SP within a year and flown all the ships you wanted to fly in Eve, you'll get bored of Eve and then you'll leave Eve forever. Then off you go to the next pay2win sub game.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 03:47:56 -
[5299] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Odd Codie wrote:This is an obvious good idea that will help pilots become more function faster, while not ruining the prestige of the SP system.
Yes, yes, 100 times yes.
Me having to wait 80 days for cap ship training (no this is not my main), with a 30mil sp toon and all the ISK to set it up and painfully annoying. It literally makes the game not fun in many aspects.
Even as giddy as I am about it, I don't see myself using it all the time... just here and there. Wrong, you'll become lazy and won't even pay that much attention to your skill queue anymore. You'll be spending most of your time grinding for isk like never before and drugging down all the SP you can get your addicted hands on. After you've piled up over 100 mill SP within a year and flown all the ships you wanted to fly in Eve, you'll get bored of Eve and then you'll leave Eve forever. Then off you go to the next pay2win sub game. Haha that's so amazingly well written I must applaud your use of irony.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1883
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 03:59:16 -
[5300] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:If the only way I can with even a moderate chance of survival using caps is to join a mega group - Then I'd like those skill points to put into something I can use. The only way you'd only be able to survive in caps by joining mega groups is only using caps against other mega groups, in which case your choice of target selection isn't something CCP should compensate. Sgt Ocker wrote:And do you really think diminishing returns will stop the elite rich from training required skills as quickly as possible? Yes, they probably didn't get mega rich by throwing vast resources into 0 return investments. If we're looking at what simply can be done then sure, this becomes a concern, but if we look at what's actually sane to do that becomes a lot less of a concern. Sgt Ocker wrote:Minimal train?? Armor plates + T2 armor plates, Shield extenders + T2 shield extenders, T2 remote reps, along with the actual skill to fly a Fax. That's just to fly Logi, add in gunnery + new armor and or shield skills - there will be nothing minimal about training for these changes. I'd be surprised if any of these skills is below rank 8 - so around 30 days each. The Fax is likely to be the same as a titan, so around 65 days for level 5, which will be the required minimum for effective use.
Now you tell me - Are the richest players in the game with the biggest toys, going to wait a few months before they can guarantee their ability to win, or are they going to skill up as quickly as possible. 30 bil to some of these guys wouldn't dent their wallets, they will use isk to maintain their position.
Realistically all you need to do is trash one of the alts you no longer use - Create Sp packets from an alt you don't use, put them on your chosen capital pilot - Your only cost is the empty SP packets, which will likely be pretty cheap compared to waiting months to fly your caps effectively again. How realistic is it to say every cap pilot has 60mill-100mill+ alts sitting around that their willing to part with to max out a series of 8x skills + a 16x skill (assuming your estimates are correct, which is a pretty big assumption) and further is going to invest in the extractors to do so (which we still haven't seen any idea where they would be priced), or the likelyhood the necessary billions of SP to meet their collective demands being on the market in ready supply that the majority of cap pilots could obtain? One or both need to be true for this scenario you created to be remotely true. Otherwise you have a number of pilots that can't simply bypass the training and the space-rich not needing to because that "competitive" bar hasn't actually been raised. At the coalition level I'd be hard pressed to believe that hundreds of cap pilots will be floated 10's of billions of isk worth of sp on the individual level (Assuming 1 16x and 2 8x skills to V (8,192,000 SP = 164 extractors @50k SP each * 300mill isk [common price estimate for the "cost" of 500k SP] = 49.2bill/pilot)). Either these coalitions are dropping trillions of isk or the benchmark of "competitive" isn't moving to all things at V.
Let's see? Three basic options:
1. Spend 30B ISK getting a Rank 14 skill up to Level 5, or 2. Drain some of the SP out of my very useful army of alts, at a rate of return of 50k SP back for every 500k I take out. So, I can burn 30m SP to have a single Racial Auxiliary skill to Level V right now. I have historically been able to train about 1.8m SP per month, so that's about 16 months worth of SP to save 60 days, or 3. Spend ten days training the skill to Level IV, buy 15 Fleet Auxiliary ships (or a Supercarrier), and wait 45 days to get the skill to Level V.
I'm personally going with option 3.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 04:08:35 -
[5301] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Let's see? Three basic options:
1. Spend 30B ISK getting a Rank 14 skill up to Level 5, or 2. Drain some of the SP out of my very useful army of alts, at a rate of return of 50k SP back for every 500k I take out. So, I can burn 30m SP to have a single Racial Auxiliary skill to Level V right now. I have historically been able to train about 1.8m SP per month, so that's about 16 months worth of SP to save 60 days, or 3. Spend ten days training the skill to Level IV, buy 15 Fleet Auxiliary ships (or a Supercarrier), and wait 45 days to get the skill to Level V.
I'm personally going with option 3. So uh, option 2....
Besides the SP, what's the cost of the empty packets you'll be using? You must have something in mind as you have a number of the cost of the full packets for option 1.
Also, 15 Fleet Auxiliary ships... you get reimbursement in isk for cap losses? Or is this peacetime/roaming that you're losing them on?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
181
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 08:12:45 -
[5302] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:The character bazaar works, there isn't anything wrong with it. It makes no sense to tinker with it at all. Further more, plex requires the expenditure of real life cash. People pay money for plex, sell plex for isk, buy character off the bazaar. So no matter what real life cash is being used, this just adds more diversity to the way it's spent for basically the same thing, skill points.
People appreciate the current skill point system because it completely favors those who have been here for years and regardless of what anyone says having fewer skill points really does put the new player at a distinct disadvantage when compared to an old player with no way to level the playing field. This is off putting and CCP clearly is beginning to see this and are preparing to take steps to help with this issue.
All of your arguements have zero validity behind them hence why I call you a troll. I'll stop that though, please present some valid arguements and let the good ol debate begin. This site gathered data on most popular MMO's whilst active, here is what it stated in Aug 2103:
Talking about EVE Online, that is still the example of how to do things in the post - WoW era. While CCP thought they were becoming the dinosaur of the industry, and therefore had to implement a cash shop with micro transactions. They realized their mistakes in time ( after their customers reminded them where their loyalty must lie Riots-in-eve-against-microtransactions ). And turned around and got back on track making EVE Online a better game.
CCP is being rewarded now, with a PCU ( peak concurrent users ) of over 65.000 and over 500.000 monthly playing subscribers and a continued growth every year since release, now more than 10 years ago.
At this moment EVE Online is the second biggest subscription based MMORPG in the west, and the only subscription based MMORPG that is still growing in the west and probably in the world.
If you make a game for gamers, with good features, it will sell and people will pay a monthly fee.
The new PCU for EVE also means it is now the MMORPG with largest shard ( single game world ) in the world, passing Second Life which has now a PCU of around 63.000 players. It will be still a while before the absolute record will be broken tho ( 88.000 PCU in Second Life a few years ago ).
If the skillpoint system was such a deterrant even when it got to 5 years old and the vets were 80 to 100 mill sp's then why did it continue to grow, why was there no outcry of we can't catch up. CCP atleast stuck to there values back then but now they have ulterior motives and are now trying to cash in on it. Its like the blind leading the blind.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
135
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 11:17:52 -
[5303] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote: After you've piled up over 100 mill SP within a year and flown all the ships you wanted to fly in Eve, you'll get bored of Eve and then you'll leave Eve forever.
You can't get bored after several months of waiting tengu obviously.
Daniela Doran wrote:you'll leave Eve forever Only after you.
Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: I'm losing all interest to log in anymore thanks to you.
the door's got a closer on it, don't let it hit you on the way out.
Pinky Bear
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
135
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 12:18:18 -
[5304] - Quote
A Ingus wrote: Ive found after many years of playing this game and reading the forums, that
Today I learned new word and I'm happy to share it with you. Juvenoia
Pinky Bear
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YouAreMyBounty Sarn
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 12:36:27 -
[5305] - Quote
Dror wrote:Suede wrote:YouAreMyBounty Sarn wrote:My friend just text me about this. I'm livid!
You are going to offer the low skilled players a chance to boost their skill points significantly. I've had to train my account for just over 2 years to get 40 million skill points. A task that has cost me around -ú240 to do. Now you are saying to the beginners that they can grind a tonne of ISK on an alt account & use it to just BUY their skill points? Why would you punish me like that? If you go through with this, I would hope that you offer me to sell my points back to Eve Online for real life money at a rate of -ú10 a month (like you charge me), then I will just grind the ISK in game & buy all my skill points using ISK instead of paying the -ú240 I've spet on my account. I doubt you will offer me this chance, so I'm well annoyed. Let me know ASAP on if this will be in the patch because I won't be paying for a subscription anymore. I'll simply just grind the ISK and buy my skill points.
Any what about PVP fights now? Where possible I've tried to guess my opponents skill points by looking at their DOB. I would no longer be able to do that anymore?
Big corps who have trillions could just buy a 1day old toon and buy it 50 mill SP. So I could lose to a 1day old toon. What a joke man. Seriously.
Final thoughts: What a joke! Not happy! Just a shame that 10 years playing eve till now we never had any way to buy SP and we eve Vets who have been royal to eve had to train skill for all this time to get to the SP where are now, which we paying sub for all this time Just a bit of joke that CCP letting new player become an 50Mill SP in less then a day is just bit of a joke and total insult to royal player base who been playing since Alpha/Beta and CCP needs to get its priority rights to think more about the royal paying 10 years olds who been with eve all this time, "Guys, SP training is awful, and others should have to do it because we did." Conversely, there's rooting for every character getting max SP.
No that's not the point at all. I'm frustrated because players who have been dedicated to Eve for 4-5years who have higher skill points will be severely punished for gaining SP's this way. If you have over 80mill SP, a Transneural Skill Packet (which will have cost someone 500,00 SP's to create) will only give those, long-term dedicated Eve customers who've invested maybe -ú1000 in subscription payments over the years, just 50k SP's. However that same packet would output the full 500,000 SP's to a much newer Eve player. So say it costs 1billion ISK to buy a Transnerual packet. A new player will pay 1billion isk to receive 500,000 SP. But the long-term Eve player will have to pay 10billion to achieve the same results (they would need 10 of these items because the SP output of the packet is only 1/10th of what it is for lower SP players). Why does CCP think that is acceptable? It's not a fair system.
I don't claim to know what a fair solution is, if CCP want to allow players to buy and sell skill points. But making long-term subscribers who've invested more into the game & helped grown Eve into what it is today should absolutely not be penalized . It's just unfair. Any item in Eve should have the same value to anyone who wants to buy it. You shouldn't simply make an item for a 1 day old toon cost "x" amount, then to make that same item perform the same way for someone else, make it cost "10*x". It's just a failure of a system & it will cause a lot of anger if developed. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
169
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 13:15:38 -
[5306] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:You call A Ingus a troll, yet you make comments like this At least he offers some insight which is more than this verbal diarrhea.
Verbal diarrhea, how cute. Where you able to come up that on your own or did you have to phone a friend? And no one has provided a legitment reason as to why this shouldn't be a feature. You know why? Everything everyone says is pure speculation until the feature is in game or we have set concrete numbers to work with. The majority is omg, noo CCP you'll ruin my game oh noes...please that's the true what did you call verbal diarrhea I'm these forums.[/quote]
There were plenty of reasons provided, which are yet to be challenged by someone who wants to contribute to the topic. Not the trolls like you ;)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Jared Khanar
70
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 13:19:56 -
[5307] - Quote
Has been mentioned here before:
- remove skill prequesites disabling you to use something entirely - rework the skill system a bit so higher skills gives "only" bonuses - everyone could do everything he / she likes more or less efficient depending on the skills
everyone would be able to take a closer look at what they want to play and skill directly into it to get better
no need for charging rl money to allow a faster progression
less devtime and moneyinvestment necessary from ccp to solve skillsystem issues? problem solved?
or is the only way to solve this the implementation of an additional payment in the subscription based game eve is? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
185
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 13:23:07 -
[5308] - Quote
YouAreMyBounty Sarn wrote:Dror wrote:Suede wrote:YouAreMyBounty Sarn wrote:My friend just text me about this. I'm livid!
You are going to offer the low skilled players a chance to boost their skill points significantly. I've had to train my account for just over 2 years to get 40 million skill points. A task that has cost me around -ú240 to do. Now you are saying to the beginners that they can grind a tonne of ISK on an alt account & use it to just BUY their skill points? Why would you punish me like that? If you go through with this, I would hope that you offer me to sell my points back to Eve Online for real life money at a rate of -ú10 a month (like you charge me), then I will just grind the ISK in game & buy all my skill points using ISK instead of paying the -ú240 I've spet on my account. I doubt you will offer me this chance, so I'm well annoyed. Let me know ASAP on if this will be in the patch because I won't be paying for a subscription anymore. I'll simply just grind the ISK and buy my skill points.
Any what about PVP fights now? Where possible I've tried to guess my opponents skill points by looking at their DOB. I would no longer be able to do that anymore?
Big corps who have trillions could just buy a 1day old toon and buy it 50 mill SP. So I could lose to a 1day old toon. What a joke man. Seriously.
Final thoughts: What a joke! Not happy! Just a shame that 10 years playing eve till now we never had any way to buy SP and we eve Vets who have been royal to eve had to train skill for all this time to get to the SP where are now, which we paying sub for all this time Just a bit of joke that CCP letting new player become an 50Mill SP in less then a day is just bit of a joke and total insult to royal player base who been playing since Alpha/Beta and CCP needs to get its priority rights to think more about the royal paying 10 years olds who been with eve all this time, "Guys, SP training is awful, and others should have to do it because we did." Conversely, there's rooting for every character getting max SP. No that's not the point at all. I'm frustrated because players who have been dedicated to Eve for 4-5years who have higher skill points will be severely punished for gaining SP's this way. If you have over 80mill SP, a Transneural Skill Packet (which will have cost someone 500,00 SP's to create) will only give those, long-term dedicated Eve customers who've invested maybe -ú1000 in subscription payments over the years, just 50k SP's. However that same packet would output the full 500,000 SP's to a much newer Eve player. So say it costs 1billion ISK to buy a Transnerual packet. A newer player will pay 1billion ISK to receive 500,000 SP. But the long-term Eve player will have to pay 10billion to achieve the same results (they would need 10 of these items because the SP output of the packet is only 1/10th of what it is for lower SP players). Why does CCP think that is acceptable? It's not a fair system. I don't claim to know what a fair solution is, if CCP want to allow players to buy and sell skill points. But making long-term subscribers who've invested more into the game & helped grown Eve into what it is today should absolutely not be penalized . It's just unfair. Any item in Eve should have the same value to anyone who wants to buy it. You shouldn't simply make an item for a 5month old toon cost "x" amount, then to make that same item perform the same way for someone else, make it cost "10*x". It's just a failure of a system & it will cause a lot of anger if developed.
That's the problem with an ill thought out money grab, the people who have been the bread and butter for the game get screwed over. They don't consider that those same dedicated pilots may have made some mistakes whilst making their original characters and not want to sell their skill points just to re-assign them but each time they do so costs them almost a week of time to insert 1 days training. Its what is coming though, they're now replacing dedication, Time , Effort with a disposable frame work. Pandering to short term interests and one can hope that it comes full circle and bites them in the ass with utmost ferocity.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
136
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 13:47:31 -
[5309] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:has been mentioned here before:
- remove skill prequesites disabling you to use something entirely - rework the skill system a bit so higher skills gives "only" bonuses - everyone could do everything he / she likes more or less efficient depending on the skills
everyone would be able to take a closer look at what they want to play and skill directly into it to get better
no need for charging rl money to allow a faster progression
problem solved?
I doubt that ships will be able to execute their purpose without training in system which you described. And you make CCP feel sad.
Jared Khanar wrote: Is the sp system good or bad now !?
Just ugly.
Pinky Bear
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Jared Khanar
71
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 13:51:27 -
[5310] - Quote
General Lootit wrote: I doubt that ships will be able to execute their purpose without training in system which you described. And you make CCP feel sad.
I hope so :) |
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ArmyOfMe
Hull Breach. Outnumbered.
510
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 14:28:30 -
[5311] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Reading a bit through the capital change devblog - found something I-¦m waiting for since this SP trading announcement ... arrived. Sadly I have overlooked it until now https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/reworking-capital-ships-and-thus-it-begins/ Quote: All existing capital sized modules will be getting a full set of Meta, Tech 2, and Faction variants. Yes, this includes Tech 2 guns (and the skills for them). We're also introducing a bunch of new modules
Player: We want to use the new, reworked capitals ccp: not with your current skills, bro player: what are we gonna do now? wait? fu ccp: guess what ... we have an idea... *locking tractor beam @ customers wallet* Like ccp seagull roughly said: the sp trading feature is fundamentally needed for the things to come Without this, right after release the new content may be inaccessible, dead content (completly / partly) until players grow into it (depending on the numbers of new skills this may take a while). Nope, ready to go for the new mods already
And its not like players cant start training for the t2 mods already if they botherd to. no need to buy sp to do that.
QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
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Jared Khanar
71
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 14:35:19 -
[5312] - Quote
ArmyOfMe wrote:Nope, ready to go for the new mods already And its not like players cant start training for the t2 mods already if they botherd to. no need to buy sp to do that.
Well ok, if the skills are already ingame and can be skilled i-¦m a bit misguided then and need to rethink a bit. The devblog stating:
Quote: All existing capital sized modules will be getting a full set of Meta, Tech 2, and Faction variants. Yes, this includes Tech 2 guns (and the skills for them). We're also introducing a bunch of new modules
lead me to assumption that new skills will be introduced into the game...
Economic Services
trading spacepixels
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ArmyOfMe
Hull Breach. Outnumbered.
510
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 15:08:58 -
[5313] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:
EDIT: as i-¦m not ingame atm i have taken a closer look at evemon. Sadly i havent found the new skills for t2 cap guns. only Capital Energy Turret / Capital Hybrid Turret / Capital Projectile Turret. May you be so kind to link me to this already existing skills, so i can take a closer look at them to inform myself a bit more about this? I-¦m not a cap pilot myself.
Well, im just guessing here, but i figure the skill reqs for t2 capital guns will be the same as for any other size t2 gun, as in lvl 5 capital turret, and maxed out gunnery support skills for the capitals. Pretty much the same as i expect t2 xl remote reps to require lvl 5 capital remote reps trained.
QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
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Jared Khanar
71
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 15:12:42 -
[5314] - Quote
ArmyOfMe wrote: Well, im just guessing here, but i figure the skill reqs for t2 capital guns will be the same as for any other size t2 gun, as in lvl 5 capital turret, and maxed out gunnery support skills for the capitals. Pretty much the same as i expect t2 xl remote reps to require lvl 5 capital remote reps trained.
Devblog says there will be new Meta, t2, faction modules AND skills for them. Doesn-¦t this mean that these new modules and skills are not ingame already?
Economic Services
trading spacepixels
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ArmyOfMe
Hull Breach. Outnumbered.
510
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 15:24:41 -
[5315] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:ArmyOfMe wrote: Well, im just guessing here, but i figure the skill reqs for t2 capital guns will be the same as for any other size t2 gun, as in lvl 5 capital turret, and maxed out gunnery support skills for the capitals. Pretty much the same as i expect t2 xl remote reps to require lvl 5 capital remote reps trained.
Devblog says there will be new Meta, t2, faction modules AND skills for the t2 ones. Doesn-¦t this mean that these new modules and skills are not ingame already? I-¦m searching through the related discussion threads a bit - just give me a moment Well, when it comes to new skills im guessing they are talking about x-large gun spec skills, which are indeed not ingame yet, and wont be until the weapons are released. Faction and meta modules dont usually require any new skills, and i sincerly doubt they will require it for the capital versions either.
QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
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Jared Khanar
71
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 16:35:28 -
[5316] - Quote
ArmyOfMe wrote: Well, when it comes to new skills im guessing they are talking about x-large gun spec skills, which are indeed not ingame yet, and wont be until the weapons are released. Faction and meta modules dont usually require any new skills, and i sincerly doubt they will require it for the capital versions either.
Ok, no reliable information released, yet. people posting about skills in the cap change thread are writing about the skills unneccessary thanks to
- no more drones on caps - no more effective logi / triage on caps expect the new aux caps - new skills lvl 5 for new guns?
but also
- fighters / bombers will be rearranged into light / med / heavy squads - new skills like light / med / heavy drones? the current two fighter / fighterbomber skills make sense anymore? (no info available) - new aux caps use exitent racial ship skills? (no info available)
Yes, thx... I guess it-¦s better to be silent on this until more information is released. Maybe a ccp dev or someone who definetly knows about the details likes to respond on the question of possible new skills regarding the cap and citadel changes here?
Economic Services
trading spacepixels
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Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
586
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 17:16:59 -
[5317] - Quote
ArmyOfMe wrote:... Well, when it comes to new skills im guessing they are talking about x-large gun spec skills, which are indeed not ingame yet, and wont be until the weapons are released. ... I gather that will be no problem whatsoever. On release day the x-large gun spec skills will be released. The TII guns themselves however will first have to be invented and then build, which will probably take a few days in total. By the time the first manufactured XL TII guns hit the market, everyone that has the pre-reqs has had the chance to train the skills at least to lvl 1.
Here I used to have a sig of our old Camper in space. Now it is disregarded as being the wrong format.
Looking out the window I see one thing: Nothing wrong with the format of our Camper! Silly CCP......
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ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1323
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 17:29:03 -
[5318] - Quote
I have removed some troll replies and those quoting them.
Quote:5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
500
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 19:56:10 -
[5319] - Quote
ISD Decoy wrote:I have removed some troll replies and those quoting them. Quote:5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
I don't know... Looks like the last 100 pages are still full of trolls. Hell, this dev blog feels like a troll post. I had to double check it's not April first. :) |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
152
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 20:18:46 -
[5320] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:ISD Decoy wrote:I have removed some troll replies and those quoting them. Quote:5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. I don't know... Looks like the last 100 pages are still full of trolls. Hell, this dev blog feels like a troll post. I had to double check it's not April first. :) They were my posts
Pinky Bear
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Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 20:21:18 -
[5321] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img] The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside. Please also read this reminder on our forum rules ~ ISD Decoy
is this a way to remove the Attributes, which came up by the CSM and CCP
http://crossingzebras.com/a-farewell-to-attributes/
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/Meetings/summit/CSM9-WS-D1.pdf
the CSM9 Winter Summit Minutes, (read the Minutes here), in the session with Team Size Matters on Day 1, the matter of character attributes was discussed:
Removal of attributes was also mentioned, but the idea is still in quite an early stage. ItGÇÖs something [CCP GamesGÇÖ devs] want to do as itGÇÖs on the level as learning skills, so that people donGÇÖt have to get locked into training skills in a non-optimal order for use, in order to train at the optimal speed. There is still some discussion around what would possibly be done with learning implants (keep them, flat bonus, something else). There are also questions as to what the rate would be with the changes. Ali [Aras] brought up some feedback that some veteran players like the space it gives you to optimize your character, but overall supports removing attributes. There was also the point of learning implants [as a] disincentive [to] PVP, especially in null and WH. |
ArmyOfMe
Hull Breach. Outnumbered.
510
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 21:01:24 -
[5322] - Quote
ISD Decoy wrote:I have removed some troll replies and those quoting them. Quote:5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. I hate to say it, but the biggest troll in this thread is by far CCP that posts a dev-blog like this, then doesnt reply to a single one of the concerned replys in here. (starting to think you might have given them a forumban due to making your workload 10x worse )
QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
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Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
501
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 21:23:21 -
[5323] - Quote
ArmyOfMe wrote:ISD Decoy wrote:I have removed some troll replies and those quoting them. Quote:5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. I hate to say it, but the biggest troll in this thread is by far CCP that posts a dev-blog like this, then doesnt reply to a single one of the concerned replys in here. (starting to think you might have given them a forumban due to making your workload 10x worse )
Judging by the rumors from eve Vegas, this is coming to eve. Seagull also promised another dev blog with an update. This is no way to hold dialogue with the players. They keep asking for constructive feedback but when we give it to them its left hanging to dry and rot. Then they wonder why nobody gives constructive feedback anymore and is just passed off all the time.
We've been giving constructive feedback for the last four years. For the last four years we have been ignored, changes go through anyway and then the community goes batshit crazy. |
Thrash Trash
Apex Syndicates
1
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 22:12:39 -
[5324] - Quote
I'm still very new to the game but even I am iffy on this. Pay to win takes away all the sense of accomplishment you get from patiently waiting that 30 day skill to finish. I'm said before, it might be cool if the more you used something in a given skill tree, the higher multiplier you got on that skill. ( ie. the more time you spend in a caldari battleship while training caldari battleship, the faster it trains. it stands to reason that you would get better at something the more you did it from a strictly role playing viewpoint. Maybe cap the total reduction it overall skill training time to 25-30% so youre still waiting a good 3 weeks on a 30 days skill.) I think that would be a better way to help new players and vets alike on top of implant bonuses. that way people who can not afford a set of +5 snake implants can still speed up their skill training while learning how to use their hulls efectivly. Thoughts?? This is my first post so go easy lol! |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1703
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 22:25:41 -
[5325] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:Judging by the rumors from eve Vegas, this is coming to eve. Seagull also promised another dev blog with an update. This is no way to hold dialogue with the players. They keep asking for constructive feedback but when we give it to them its left hanging to dry and rot. Then they wonder why nobody gives constructive feedback anymore and is just passed off all the time.
We've been giving constructive feedback for the last four years. For the last four years we have been ignored, changes go through anyway and then the community goes batshit crazy. I want to use the forum you're using with the 4 years of constructive posts. The one I've been using has had this same level of response to just about anything someone didn't like.
And most of this thread hasn't been dialogue-worthy IMHO. I wouldn't want to engage in conversation with the blatantly accusatory tone here and don't envy those that try. |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
502
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 22:48:07 -
[5326] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote:Judging by the rumors from eve Vegas, this is coming to eve. Seagull also promised another dev blog with an update. This is no way to hold dialogue with the players. They keep asking for constructive feedback but when we give it to them its left hanging to dry and rot. Then they wonder why nobody gives constructive feedback anymore and is just passed off all the time.
We've been giving constructive feedback for the last four years. For the last four years we have been ignored, changes go through anyway and then the community goes batshit crazy. I want to use the forum you're using with the 4 years of constructive posts. The one I've been using has had this same level of response to just about anything someone didn't like. And most of this thread hasn't been dialogue-worthy IMHO. I wouldn't want to engage in conversation with the blatantly accusatory tone here and don't envy those that try.
I can't speak for the past twelve years as personally I hate using the forums but I have been actively watching them and participated since incarna. I'll just list several major occasions that come to mind where we gave constructive feedback BEFORE the changes happened, and they ignored us.
New inventory UI Latest probing mechanics Loot spew Bounty mechanics Aggression safety mechanics Aegis/Fozzie Sov New industry system (although they did address many of the issues and only left some to hang and dry)
That's just a few I can think of right now. If I really thought hard I could list dozens. If you read the thread you'll see plenty of valid points and constructive feedback even if it's soaked in some bitter tears. And personally I think that bitterness had accumulated over the years as a result of CCP attitude.
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A Ingus
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
67
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 03:43:10 -
[5327] - Quote
Guys guys, all you have to do is compose one line calling someone a troll. This will get that someone post deleted. But your post calling that someone a troll will remain in the thread.
Therefore, OP is a troll. |
Magnus Roden
Center for the Advancement of Human Endeavour
22
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 11:53:16 -
[5328] - Quote
This is a really bad idea because it starts to gnaw at a very basic concept within EVE: Choices have consequences.
The choices one makes in regards to character name, attribute remaps and skill training are perpetuated when/if that character gets sold but with this idea you just gobble up the pure SP, from any character and any skills, and distribute it as you please. So while one could say that "it's the same thing" it really isn't, it really really really isn't. Any attempt to try and construe that it somehow is must be a result of a lack of understanding of the rather important differences. That or an unwillingness, of course.
It's a first step towards Pay2Win, while this system itself is already borderline Pay2Win it really is a Pandora's box: once you've opened it you've sold your soul as it will pave the way for more/actual Pay2Win. First of all because the mechanics are now in place you might as well use it for other new and related things resulting in more Pay2Win down the line. More importantly: it's a lure, people get used to the idea and thus will be more susceptible to stronger forms of Pay2Win once they're used to this, it'll also bring in more/new players who agree to the whole Pay2Win concept which will in time create a bigger demand as well.
It will not help new players because the conversation cost is rather fierce nor will it help normal players for that same reason. It'll only help wealthy individuals and entities who have the (in game) buying power to help and bolster their ranks and alts.This is not in the interest of the game, at all.
Excellence is the gradual result of always striving to do better.
|
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 11:53:46 -
[5329] - Quote
ArmyOfMe wrote:ISD Decoy wrote:I have removed some troll replies and those quoting them. Quote:5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. I hate to say it, but the biggest troll in this thread is by far CCP that posts a dev-blog like this, then doesnt reply to a single one of the concerned replys in here. (starting to think you might have given them a forumban due to making your workload 10x worse )
ArmyOfMe if you read this
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf
sometimes it make you wonder.
Without the time or resources to properly do so, many things were left half-delivered, to be iterated upon later GÇô which never happened. CCP has an extensive track record of promising to return to features and never doing so
this could be other hate to say Monoclegate cashshop with buying SP
you think from last time they would at least not gone down the same road as the damage was done from the Microtransactions and 'monocle-gate' last time |
Stalking Mantis
No.Mercy Triumvirate.
887
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 12:21:48 -
[5330] - Quote
ArmyOfMe wrote:ISD Decoy wrote:I have removed some troll replies and those quoting them. Quote:5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. I hate to say it, but the biggest troll in this thread is by far CCP that posts a dev-blog like this,
coming out with a concept that is against everything at the core of EVE concepts because they are strapped for cash.
CCP embracing all these writers and historians that glorify what EVE was and should be but at the same time making fozzie sov basically killing it.
I really think CCP is confused as hell as t what they want to do, they already watched their player base drop from 70K-90K average on the servers two years ago to 15k-20k average on the servers now.
Here is a hint.
STOP alienating your customer base then waking up in an empty bed and scrambling to reach out to newer players that neither have the time nor love invested into the game as the older players do.
The only way, someone will be loyal to this game, is if they are emotionally attached to their characters, and the stories they are living with them. That is not something you can just inject to the new player base. And no amount of tutorials or opportunity maps will give this to the new players.
The buy SP is so short sighted imo that as soon as a new player realizes that more SP=/=a sure win in pvp him and his monthly subscription will evaporate faster than your one month old player losing officer fit caldari navy ravens off the jita undock. And I am sure CCP knows how long those visa warriors stick around and play eve.
P.S.
All the people that say this is a great concept..... /me whispers......they haven't paid a dime to CCP in years. And fully embrace a new way for them not to.
Amarr Liason Officer Extraordinare
-->Check Out Amarrian Vengeance/Amarr FW History from 2011 to 2014
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=352629&find=unread
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Stalking Mantis
No.Mercy Triumvirate.
888
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 12:29:46 -
[5331] - Quote
"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "
CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 Source
Amarr Liason Officer Extraordinare
-->Check Out Amarrian Vengeance/Amarr FW History from 2011 to 2014
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=352629&find=unread
|
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 12:52:21 -
[5332] - Quote
Stalking Mantis wrote:"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 Source
Microtransactions and 'monocle-gate'
The development difficulties were only part of the Incarna problem. According to sources, CCP management had decided to introduce microtransactions, unbeknownst to most of the rank and file, charging real money for cosmetic items with which to customise character avatars. This is a familiar feature in online games, but usually a new outfit for a player character will cost $15-20. CCP decided to charge much more. The most notorious example was a monocle costing $70. The price tag infuriated fans kick-starting a major pricing controversy that would go on to become known as Monocle-gate.
The CEO had members of the fiction writing team put the apology together - he was either so out of touch, so arrogant, that he couldnGÇÖt find the words himself
Eventually CEO Hilmar Veigar P+¬tursson issued an apology to the players. But even this short appeasement wasnGÇÖt what it seemed; according to Blood, Petursson didnGÇÖt actually write it.
GÇ£He had members of our storyline team GÇô a group responsible for writing in-game content and fiction GÇô put it together,GÇ¥ he says. GÇ£He was either so out of touch, so arrogant, or perhaps both, that he couldnGÇÖt find the words to say himself. They bailed him out big time.GÇ¥
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
186
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 13:45:10 -
[5333] - Quote
As far as i'm concerned over all this now, where is anything prestigious when the entire game is to be monetized. I have noticed that they have removed the 5 to 15 mill skill point bracket which offered 450k return, which gives the now 5 to 50 million skill point bracket for a minimal loss the chance to reskill to what ever they want as long as they're willing to pay. So where does the "We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point" come into play apart from if you are one of the unlucky ones who have been loyal to the game, Your reward is to get 50k .... Thats more like a 2 fingered salute than anything to do with prestige.
Helmar's let his pet Seagull fly high, Rise into the clouds and take one giant turd on anyone that's been in this game longer than a few years !!!!
Good luck in your future freemium plus endeavours.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Venus Aka
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 14:29:01 -
[5334] - Quote
I like the idea and hope this gets into the game soon. and the new characters whom I've met ingame and invited to Eve online also hope that it gets implemented
Good job CCP.
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Jared Khanar
71
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 14:32:50 -
[5335] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:As far as i'm concerned over all this now, where is anything prestigious when the entire game is to be monetized. I have noticed that they have removed the 5 to 15 mill skill point bracket which offered 450k return, which gives the now 5 to 50 million skill point bracket for a minimal loss the chance to reskill to what ever they want as long as they're willing to pay. So where does the "We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point" come into play apart from if you are one of the unlucky ones who have been loyal to the game, Your reward is to get 50k .... Thats more like a 2 fingered salute than anything to do with prestige.
Helmar's let his pet Seagull fly high, Rise into the clouds and take one giant turd on anyone that's been in this game longer than a few years !!!!
Good luck in your future premium / freemium plus endeavours.
CCP Fozzie, Seagull, whoever...
Even if it-¦s easy to blame one person for everything (I do so myself too often)... don-¦t. If someone works for a company he / she "sits between the chairs" in some way. There-¦s always someone above you, giving orders.
It's odd, but it seems a lot of online gaming companies have goals for their "live" as a legal entity, that are conflicting with the expectations of the consumers of their products. Or at least the way they are trying to reach these goals offer a great potential for trouble.
Whether they realize at some point that this can be handled differently?
Anyway... for the employee: someone has to pay your bills.
Doubt this is the creative work and decision from a single, isolated person. Certainly this is ccp ceo + management approved and instructed.
Economic Services
trading spacepixels
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Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
55
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 16:57:43 -
[5336] - Quote
Stalking Mantis wrote:"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 Source
Quoting a four year old post in an attempt to say CCP is going back on their word. They're not. MMO''s are not games that are designed to be a fixed state but rather a a malleable one. They're designed to grow, expand, and change. If you have over 80mil skill points which takes significant time then it's not worthwhile to use this option. You'd be better off headed to the bazaar to find a character that meets your skill point requirements. If you have less then 5mil you get the lost benefit. They're not screwing over vets. If they were trying to do that they'd make it a flat everyone gets 500k skill points regardless of the amount of skill points you currently have. The diminishing returns keeps things balanced and numbers can always he adjusted to keep things in line. |
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
51
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 17:20:15 -
[5337] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote: Quoting a four year old post in an attempt to say CCP is going back on their word. They're not. MMO''s are not games that are designed to be a fixed state but rather a a malleable one. They're designed to grow, expand, and change. If you have over 80mil skill points which takes significant time then it's not worthwhile to use this option. You'd be better off headed to the bazaar to find a character that meets your skill point requirements. If you have less then 5mil you get the lost benefit. They're not screwing over vets. If they were trying to do that they'd make it a flat everyone gets 500k skill points regardless of the amount of skill points you currently have. The diminishing returns keeps things balanced and numbers can always he adjusted to keep things in line.
They are. The diminishing returns just mean it costs more - but you can invest money to bypass time. Some people are willing to spend SERIOUS RL cash to get what they want in EVE.
Relying on diminishing returns for balance is naive at best...
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
187
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 17:41:13 -
[5338] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Stalking Mantis wrote:"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 Source Quoting a four year old post in an attempt to say CCP is going back on their word. They're not. MMO''s are not games that are designed to be a fixed state but rather a a malleable one. They're designed to grow, expand, and change. If you have over 80mil skill points which takes significant time then it's not worthwhile to use this option. You'd be better off headed to the bazaar to find a character that meets your skill point requirements. If you have less then 5mil you get the lost benefit. They're not screwing over vets. If they were trying to do that they'd make it a flat everyone gets 500k skill points regardless of the amount of skill points you currently have. The diminishing returns keeps things balanced and numbers can always he adjusted to keep things in line. The environment and content may change but not the principles the game was built on, and you keep mentioning vets, a 4 year old character can have more than 80 mill skill points That is not a vet at all. So yes its nothing todo with prestige what so ever its just anyone who's invested any sort of time into this game is going to get screwed over.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Stalking Mantis
No.Mercy Triumvirate.
898
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 18:19:31 -
[5339] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Stalking Mantis wrote:"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 Source statement
Doing so would be going against a core mechanic of EVE online just to get extra cash so yah.
Amarr Liason Officer Extraordinare
-->Check Out Amarrian Vengeance/Amarr FW History from 2011 to 2014
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=352629&find=unread
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
169
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 18:25:24 -
[5340] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Stalking Mantis wrote:"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 Source Quoting a four year old post in an attempt to say CCP is going back on their word. They're not. MMO''s are not games that are designed to be a fixed state but rather a a malleable one. They're designed to grow, expand, and change. If you have over 80mil skill points which takes significant time then it's not worthwhile to use this option. You'd be better off headed to the bazaar to find a character that meets your skill point requirements. If you have less then 5mil you get the lost benefit. They're not screwing over vets. If they were trying to do that they'd make it a flat everyone gets 500k skill points regardless of the amount of skill points you currently have. The diminishing returns keeps things balanced and numbers can always he adjusted to keep things in line. They are. We are speaking about fundamentals here, not some minor changes who are liked or not liked by someone. Changing fundamentals can easily lead your customers to ask themselves if it is worth to invest time and money in something which might be something else in a year or five. How will that affect current player base we will see, but judging from responses here and ingame there will be a lot of unhappy customers...
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1703
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 21:49:43 -
[5341] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:As far as i'm concerned over all this now, where is anything prestigious when the entire game is to be monetized. I have noticed that they have removed the 5 to 15 mill skill point bracket which offered 450k return, which gives the now 5 to 50 million skill point bracket for a minimal loss the chance to reskill to what ever they want as long as they're willing to pay. So where does the "We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point" come into play apart from if you are one of the unlucky ones who have been loyal to the game, Your reward is to get 50k .... Thats more like a 2 fingered salute than anything to do with prestige.
Helmar's let his pet Seagull fly high, Rise into the clouds and take one giant turd on anyone that's been in this game longer than a few years !!!!
Good luck in your future premium / freemium plus endeavours. If there was a bracket removed it wasn't recently as I have some numbers floating around from ~2 weeks ago that don't have that 5 - 15m SP bracket. The strange thing is that if that's true and the 5-15m bracket was merged with 15-50m at the same rate of 400k/packet rather than 450k the "minimal loss (20% being minimal apparently)" was increased for the 5-15 range, making it less trivial to change skills around, and didn't make things better for the range as a whole.
Also, how are we "unlucky" to have characters with the range of options allowed by 80m + SP? Because we can't add packets at the same rate of a lower SP character? Simple solution, make a new character. All those new players will have the same options should they get to the same SP range. No one is getting shafted since everyone has the same options, either creating new characters efficiently of respecking capable ones at a loss, thus "rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point."
Stalking Mantis wrote:Doing so would be going against a core mechanic of EVE online just to get extra cash so yah. They've been doing that since the character bazaar was created, thus charging extra cash for the transfer of SP is at this point just as much a core mechanic, just with a more prohibitive price point. But I guess we're ok with it so long as the entry point is several plex rather than a fraction of one. |
Magnus Roden
Center for the Advancement of Human Endeavour
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 22:14:46 -
[5342] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Stalking Mantis wrote:Doing so would be going against a core mechanic of EVE online just to get extra cash so yah. They've been doing that since the character bazaar was created, thus charging extra cash for the transfer of SP is at this point just as much a core mechanic, just with a more prohibitive price point. But I guess we're ok with it so long as the entry point is several plex rather than a fraction of one.
No the character bazaar does NOT break the "rules", if you think it does and this is thus the same then you're lacking insight, or you're just avoiding the issue on purpose.
Excellence is the gradual result of always striving to do better.
|
Jadon Wallace
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 22:22:16 -
[5343] - Quote
I don't see how this is going to be targeted to new players again, unless you're willing to break out the credit card and sell some PLEX on the market to beef up your capital then it won't work for new players. Older players will benefit more as they will have much more capital than the newbro, so this system is kind of self defeating isn't it? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1703
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 22:24:14 -
[5344] - Quote
Magnus Roden wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Stalking Mantis wrote:Doing so would be going against a core mechanic of EVE online just to get extra cash so yah. They've been doing that since the character bazaar was created, thus charging extra cash for the transfer of SP is at this point just as much a core mechanic, just with a more prohibitive price point. But I guess we're ok with it so long as the entry point is several plex rather than a fraction of one. No the character bazaar does NOT break the "rules", if you think it does and this is thus the same then you're lacking insight, or you're just avoiding the issue on purpose. There is no issue to avoid precisely because of the bazaar unless you think character level investment is only meaningful when it's just time and trading SP needs a significant entry point.
Fact of the matter is trading identities trivializes consequence rather than enforcing it as you literally get paid as a seller in the bazaar to liquidate your reputation. It's just legitimized alt rolling that bypasses the normal consequence of doing so, but we're apparently fine with it since someone else is still holding the bag when the sale is done.
That people say it's fine because of reputation is completely backwards, and that's the closest thing to a defense of a difference that people have presented. And even then it's easily trivialized with existing social connections.
So in the end the result is the same, we're fine with paying real cash for SP so long as the investment is high and the bad rep from old players hurts new ones.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
191
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 22:25:48 -
[5345] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Also, how are we "unlucky" to have characters with the range of options allowed by 80m + SP? Because we can't add packets at the same rate of a lower SP character? Simple solution, make a new character. All those new players will have the same options should they get to the same SP range. No one is getting shafted since everyone has the same options, either creating new characters efficiently of respecking capable ones at a loss, thus "rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point." Dont you think 80mill plus characters might of made a few errors when they first made there character and may wanted to have the option of respeccing there own skills, but at a 90% loss of skillpoints doing it is hardly fair ???
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1703
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 22:37:02 -
[5346] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Also, how are we "unlucky" to have characters with the range of options allowed by 80m + SP? Because we can't add packets at the same rate of a lower SP character? Simple solution, make a new character. All those new players will have the same options should they get to the same SP range. No one is getting shafted since everyone has the same options, either creating new characters efficiently of respecking capable ones at a loss, thus "rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point." Dont you think 80mill plus characters might of made a few errors when they first made there character and may wanted to have the option of respeccing there own skills, but at a 90% loss of skillpoints doing it is hardly fair ??? I don't think it any less "fair" than having a 100m SP character compared to a new one. Nothing about the skill system currently is about ensuring parity between what characters can do. So to answer your question directly, no, I don't think it's fair. I don't think it should be as it's the price of having a highly capable character already. It also helps protect the concept of highly capable characters from triviality by making further investment more costly.
I don't think I should easily outpace the 200mill SP guys that decide to train normally, I don't think I should costlessly outpace the 100mill SP guys that spent their training time more wisely. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 23:06:10 -
[5347] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: They are. We are speaking about fundamentals here, not some minor changes which are liked or not liked by someone. Changing fundamentals can easily lead your customers to ask themselves if it is worth to invest time and money in something which might be something else in a year or five. How will that affect current player base we will see, but judging from responses here and ingame there will be a lot of unhappy customers...
I'm quite embarrassed about the fact that this is most popular topic on eve-o. It's not what newcomer expecting to see after reading news about new feature like this. BTW I asked in russian thread "Guys, what are your favorite patchs? " And you know what? None for a long time. I went to conclusion that there is no such thing for vet which called "good patch", every changing is bad. And I think reasons for that behavior not in the game but in psychology of human being. Term which explains this phenomenon is juvenoia.
Pinky Bear
|
Magnus Roden
Center for the Advancement of Human Endeavour
28
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 23:57:21 -
[5348] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Magnus Roden wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Stalking Mantis wrote:Doing so would be going against a core mechanic of EVE online just to get extra cash so yah. They've been doing that since the character bazaar was created, thus charging extra cash for the transfer of SP is at this point just as much a core mechanic, just with a more prohibitive price point. But I guess we're ok with it so long as the entry point is several plex rather than a fraction of one. No the character bazaar does NOT break the "rules", if you think it does and this is thus the same then you're lacking insight, or you're just avoiding the issue on purpose. There is no issue to avoid precisely because of the bazaar unless you think character level investment is only meaningful when it's just time and trading SP needs a significant entry point. Fact of the matter is trading identities trivializes consequence rather than enforcing it as you literally get paid as a seller in the bazaar to liquidate your reputation. It's just legitimized alt rolling that bypasses the normal consequence of doing so, but we're apparently fine with it since someone else is still holding the bag when the sale is done. That people say it's fine because of reputation is completely backwards, and that's the closest thing to a defense of a difference that people have presented. And even then it's easily trivialized with existing social connections. So in the end the result is the same, we're fine with paying real cash for SP so long as the investment is high and the bad rep from old players hurts new ones.
That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply.
I'm sure you can understand this basic thing, it really isn't too difficult to comprehend.
Excellence is the gradual result of always striving to do better.
|
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 00:14:15 -
[5349] - Quote
Stalking Mantis wrote:"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 Source
But enough talk from me. We all know that much quoted phrase, GÇ£ItGÇÖs not what you say, itGÇÖs what you do,GÇ¥ that will make the difference here. From now on, CCP will focus on doing what we say and saying what we do. That is the path to restoring trust and moving forward.
Regards,
Hilmar Veigar P+¬tursson, CEO
CCP Hellmar
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1703
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 00:42:06 -
[5350] - Quote
Magnus Roden wrote:That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply.
I'm sure you can understand this basic thing, it really isn't too difficult to comprehend. And the trade of SP will also abide by the time invested to create SP, as it can only be made available by those willing to do so at the rate they can generate it. It still adheres to the seller's invested time.
That the seller can also erase consequence and get paid for it doesn't rationally make a good argument though. It's got nothing to do with not understanding, but rather everything to do with understanding that character reputation isn't a consistent consequence; it diminishes completely for older players with social connections in game.
So we're back to the argument that SP trades should have significant cost and hurt new players particularly. That's not something I can agree with. |
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
217
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 02:28:06 -
[5351] - Quote
Magnus Roden wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Magnus Roden wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Stalking Mantis wrote:Doing so would be going against a core mechanic of EVE online just to get extra cash so yah. They've been doing that since the character bazaar was created, thus charging extra cash for the transfer of SP is at this point just as much a core mechanic, just with a more prohibitive price point. But I guess we're ok with it so long as the entry point is several plex rather than a fraction of one. No the character bazaar does NOT break the "rules", if you think it does and this is thus the same then you're lacking insight, or you're just avoiding the issue on purpose. There is no issue to avoid precisely because of the bazaar unless you think character level investment is only meaningful when it's just time and trading SP needs a significant entry point. Fact of the matter is trading identities trivializes consequence rather than enforcing it as you literally get paid as a seller in the bazaar to liquidate your reputation. It's just legitimized alt rolling that bypasses the normal consequence of doing so, but we're apparently fine with it since someone else is still holding the bag when the sale is done. That people say it's fine because of reputation is completely backwards, and that's the closest thing to a defense of a difference that people have presented. And even then it's easily trivialized with existing social connections. So in the end the result is the same, we're fine with paying real cash for SP so long as the investment is high and the bad rep from old players hurts new ones. That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply. I'm sure you can understand this basic thing, it really isn't too difficult to comprehend.
Apparently it is either to difficult for some (CCP included) to comprehend this or they don't want to comprehend it for selfish reasonings.
|
Magnus Roden
Center for the Advancement of Human Endeavour
33
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 03:04:16 -
[5352] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Magnus Roden wrote:That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply.
I'm sure you can understand this basic thing, it really isn't too difficult to comprehend. And the trade of SP will also abide by the time invested to create SP, as it can only be made available by those willing to do so at the rate they can generate it. It still adheres to the seller's invested time. That the seller can also erase consequence and get paid for it doesn't rationally make a good argument though. It's got nothing to do with not understanding, but rather everything to do with understanding that character reputation isn't a consistent consequence; it diminishes completely for older players with social connections in game. So we're back to the argument that SP trades should have significant cost and hurt new players particularly. That's not something I can agree with.
Don't be dumb. You can create a character a day old with 50 mil SP, its SP is not in line with its age. And yes a character's age, skill choices, name choice etc etc still remains and applies when it's sold. It is not the same at all.
Excellence is the gradual result of always striving to do better.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1703
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 07:01:54 -
[5353] - Quote
Magnus Roden wrote:Don't be dumb. You can create a character a day old with 50 mil SP, its SP is not in line with its age. And yes a character's age, skill choices, name choice etc etc still remains and applies when it's sold. It is not the same at all. Creating day old characters with any amount of SP is a non-issue. Fact is that SP came from somewhere, and that somewhere is characters that trained that SP over time. It's not created without seller time investment.
Beyond that you haven't actually said anything here that disagrees with anything I stated. For some reason everyone is philosophically married to a system that serves vets in several ways including consequence avoidance (selling burnt alts over building a lasting, personalized identity), and removing elements of predictability regarding skills of young characters. This is just vet self service.
Further having new players with unskilled characters who may not understand this fully or how to investigate a character being the primary buyers, as confirmed by CCP, doesn't help the situation either. We're apparently married to a sense of "consequence" that makes no reasonable sense to maintain since the player isn't the same, while freeing up a character slot for more consequence free corp theft and awoxing for the actual guilty party.
Meanwhile for vets, since their already socially connected and SP waste carries no penalty anymore, buying SP has no consequence whatsoever.
So as stated, we're back to the argument that SP trades should have significant cost and hurt new players particularly. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
192
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 08:32:27 -
[5354] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Magnus Roden wrote:Don't be dumb. You can create a character a day old with 50 mil SP, its SP is not in line with its age. And yes a character's age, skill choices, name choice etc etc still remains and applies when it's sold. It is not the same at all. Creating day old characters with any amount of SP is a non-issue. Fact is that SP came from somewhere, and that somewhere is characters that trained that SP over time. It's not created without seller time investment. Beyond that you haven't actually said anything here that disagrees with anything I stated. For some reason everyone is philosophically married to a system that serves vets in several ways including consequence avoidance (selling burnt alts over building a lasting, personalized identity), and removing elements of predictability regarding skills of young characters. This is just vet self service. Further having new players with unskilled characters who may not understand this fully or how to investigate a character being the primary buyers, as confirmed by CCP, doesn't help the situation either. We're apparently married to a sense of "consequence" that makes no reasonable sense to maintain since the player isn't the same, while freeing up a character slot for more consequence free corp theft and awoxing for the actual guilty party. Meanwhile for vets, since their already socially connected and SP waste carries no penalty anymore, buying SP has no consequence whatsoever. So as stated, we're back to the argument that SP trades should have significant cost and hurt new players particularly. What you can't seem to grasp though is the past 12 years the fundamental principal of the game has been time and effort equal progression at no point in its history could you take a one day old character and give it 4 years of perfect training instantly, didn't matter how in game rich in real life rich it was not possible.
If this was being done to help create a new influx of players they could of done it so many other ways, Balanced learning ,no attribs and all set 50% higher, various boosting implants that make it even faster, missions or NPE awarding skillpoints character creation giving your first slot more skillpoints and to be shown how to use them for pvp / pve / ind / mining / scanning that is endless, but nooo they put this garbage up about Personalization which its not, and not had the common courtesy of even replying to a single post. Really does show how connected to the player base they've become.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
52
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 09:30:16 -
[5355] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:[quote=Magnus Roden]That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply.
How can so many people not see the difference?
Each SP will be generated according to the time limits.
But if you take many characters all generating SP and transfer it to the same character, THAT character will have broken the time to SP rule.
I cant decide whether people choose to ignore this, or whether people's logic really is that flawed.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
194
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 09:38:08 -
[5356] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:[quote=Magnus Roden]That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply.
How can so many people not see the difference? Each SP will be generated according to the time limits. But if you take many characters all generating SP and transfer it to the same character, THAT character will have broken the time to SP rule. I cant decide whether people choose to ignore this, or whether people's logic really is that flawed. You will find that people choose to see it the same if it benefits their in game goals and not for anything to do with principle / fundamental issues e.g. i want it now, this way i can get it now. short term greed doesn't make for longevity though.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
53
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 11:30:19 -
[5357] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: You will find that people choose to see it the same if it benefits their in game goals and not for anything to do with principle / fundamental issues e.g. i want it now, this way i can get it now. short term greed doesn't make for longevity though.
So, in summary, people are a problem...
:) |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
195
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 12:16:53 -
[5358] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: You will find that people choose to see it the same if it benefits their in game goals and not for anything to do with principle / fundamental issues e.g. i want it now, this way i can get it now. short term greed doesn't make for longevity though.
So, in summary, people are a problem... :) People yes, the player base no. If you dangle a carrot - There's always an ass willing to follow it regardless of where it leads him.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Thonys Visser
Green Visstick High
10
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 13:28:15 -
[5359] - Quote
Well .....you have to see the big picture here
Its how the system works
just like raising taXes (if there is a uninvestigated area to explore and make a profit out of it)
the pb who has the cash will grind more skills to there benefit the poor becomes poorer (and grind nothing)
its just a way for ccp to grind there income
and its just a way to look at it
Greetings you lovely ccp and lovely pb people
ps :ccp if you want the pb has more skills,.... well give it to them by downgrading level 5 to 14 days ,..or on the the real money side one sub for two months (just a idea ,how to cope with the so called problem)
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
218
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 14:02:08 -
[5360] - Quote
I just hope CCP give an update with some sort of timetable for when they plan to implement this cancerous feature into Eve before my subs expire. |
|
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
59
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 16:54:26 -
[5361] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:I just hope CCP give an update with some sort of timetable for when they plan to implement this cancerous feature into Eve before my subs expire.
They won't do that until they have calculated how much it will cost them to ignore their paying customers. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
13
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 17:22:11 -
[5362] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:[quote=Magnus Roden]That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply.
How can so many people not see the difference? Each SP will be generated according to the time limits. But if you take many characters all generating SP and transfer it to the same character, THAT character will have broken the time to SP rule. I cant decide whether people choose to ignore this, or whether people's logic really is that flawed.
I agree - A character has a hard limit on the number of SP it can acquire over a set period of time. The purchase of SP over this amount breaks a core concept of the game.
You cannot go the Bazaar and buy a 25 year old Character but soon you will be able to buy the SP to make one.
So, if you are going to sell skill points why bother with the whole trading game - Just put them in the store and do Aurum for Skill points - Accept that its pay to win & don't disguise it as trading "in-game" skills or recycling skills |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
210
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 18:24:51 -
[5363] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Amanda Orion wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:[quote=Magnus Roden]That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply.
How can so many people not see the difference? Each SP will be generated according to the time limits. But if you take many characters all generating SP and transfer it to the same character, THAT character will have broken the time to SP rule. I cant decide whether people choose to ignore this, or whether people's logic really is that flawed. I agree - A character has a hard limit on the number of SP it can acquire over a set period of time. The purchase of SP over this amount breaks a core concept of the game. You cannot go the Bazaar and buy a 25 year old Character but soon you will be able to buy the SP to make one. So, if you are going to sell skill points why bother with the whole trading game - Just put them in the store and do Aurum for Skill points - Accept that its pay to win & don't disguise it as trading "in-game" skills or recycling skills I couldn't agree more, it would save a lot of in game hassle, got to be easier coding an icon and adding an item in the store - i suggested the same thing about 100 pages ago but then they cant hide behind a personaliztion feature, its just outright pay 2 win/progress
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
189
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 18:42:07 -
[5364] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: They are. We are speaking about fundamentals here, not some minor changes which are liked or not liked by someone. Changing fundamentals can easily lead your customers to ask themselves if it is worth to invest time and money in something which might be something else in a year or five. How will that affect current player base we will see, but judging from responses here and ingame there will be a lot of unhappy customers...
I'm quite embarrassed about the fact that this is most popular topic on eve-o. It's not what newcomer expecting to see after reading news about new feature like this. BTW I asked in russian thread "Guys, what are your favorite patchs? " And you know what? None for a long time. I went to conclusion that there is no such thing for vet which called "good patch", every changing is bad(even if there is one good change than they could find a bunch of bad ones). And I think reasons for that behavior not in the game but in psychology.
If they read this one they will have the same issue. They come to try themselves in cut throat cruel space and all they see is people whining how hard it is and that they need more isk or more sp (at the same time it was never as easy to make it for new players as it is now)...
And patch bringing this will be different from others since game fundamental is going to be changed. So it is not just if someone likes ship, pos, missions, whatever changes. This is the biggest change ever as it is change in CCP`s relations to its customers.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 19:22:43 -
[5365] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: And patch bringing this will be different from others since game fundamental is going to be changed. So it is not just if someone likes ship, pos, missions, whatever changes. This is the biggest change ever as it is change in CCP`s relations to its customers.
Yeap, it's crucial changing. Like inventing prostetic limbs(remeber your sports metaphor about pretige)... Is it right thing to disqualify person from challenge who suffered from loosing limb but now he has prostetic one?
Pinky Bear
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1703
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 20:06:35 -
[5366] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:What you can't seem to grasp though is the past 12 years the fundamental principal of the game has been time and effort equal progression at no point in its history could you take a one day old character and give it 4 years of perfect training instantly, didn't matter how in game rich in real life rich it was not possible.
If this was being done to help create a new influx of players they could of done it so many other ways, Balanced learning ,no attribs and all set 50% higher, various boosting implants that make it even faster, missions or NPE awarding skillpoints character creation giving your first slot more skillpoints and to be shown how to use them for pvp / pve / ind / mining / scanning that is endless, but nooo they put this garbage up about Personalization which its not, and not had the common courtesy of even replying to a single post. Really does show how connected to the player base they've become. Either you didn't read or just ignored parts of the post. The possibility of creating high SP characters that are new was acknowledged, but as stated it's a non-issue, or rather should be. The only function served by maintaining the relationship of SP to age strictly, and mind you only as a determinant of max SP rather than actual SP, is being able to estimate the abilities of younger players. Is that alone a function that needs maintained? If not then all we have are reasons based on feeling and because "it's always been that way."
Does it add value? None that I can find or has been presented. It's been argued that this relationship is currently the case, just not why it's actually good or better than abandoning it.
To the rest: Balanced learning - This in effect deals with one attribute of the issue, optimal training order, but not the wait itself. That wait is what people are bypassing with purchasing characters. This is effectively not related to the proposal.
Higher attributes - This could actually have some effect, though new players won't have the old training times to compare to. If a goal takes 9 months instead of 12 and still retains the constant "I'll always be behind" mechanism, how much can it help? It's also something that doesn't add to gameplay.
Boosters/Implants - See above and below
Awarding SP for PvE/NPE - This is actually an Idea that many have been against for quite some time. If we warmed up to it now we aren't as married to principle (the divorce of training and grinding that people so love) as we're pretending here.
As far as not replying, they have replied to answer questions. There are 7 dev posts here doing that before the thread descended into a series of accusations and generalizations not worthy of response. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1703
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 20:11:05 -
[5367] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Amanda Orion wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:[quote=Magnus Roden]That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply.
How can so many people not see the difference? Each SP will be generated according to the time limits. But if you take many characters all generating SP and transfer it to the same character, THAT character will have broken the time to SP rule. I cant decide whether people choose to ignore this, or whether people's logic really is that flawed. I agree - A character has a hard limit on the number of SP it can acquire over a set period of time. The purchase of SP over this amount breaks a core concept of the game. You cannot go the Bazaar and buy a 25 year old Character but soon you will be able to buy the SP to make one. So, if you are going to sell skill points why bother with the whole trading game - Just put them in the store and do Aurum for Skill points - Accept that its pay to win & don't disguise it as trading "in-game" skills or recycling skills I couldn't agree more, it would save a lot of in game hassle, got to be easier coding an icon and adding an item in the store - i suggested the same thing about 100 pages ago but then they cant hide behind a personaliztion feature, its just outright pay 2 win/progress I can't help but have this feeling that people here don't know what P2W actually means anymore. I buy a character from the Bazaar and that's not P2W because I have to buy it whole, but it becomes P2W the moment I can buy that skillset on my character from the same supplier?
What? |
Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two Reckoning Star Alliance
24
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 20:17:18 -
[5368] - Quote
I can't wait for this feature, the sooner the better. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
15
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 20:33:30 -
[5369] - Quote
Quote: I can't help but have this feeling that people here don't know what P2W actually means anymore. I buy a character from the Bazaar and that's not P2W because I have to buy it whole, but it becomes P2W the moment I can buy that skillset on my character from the same supplier?
What?
I know it sounds like semantics but buying a 5 year old character that can only ever have gained 'x' amount of skill points training is different from implanting 5 years worth of SP into a 12 year old character that couldn't possibly have trained for 17 years.
A mega-corp buying the SP packets to make a fleet's Titian / Carrier / whateverrole pilots have perfect V skills and have an edge that just could not exist unless it was paid for.
|
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
236
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 21:01:37 -
[5370] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: I know it sounds like semantics but buying a 5 year old character that can only ever have gained 'x' amount of skill points training is different from implanting 5 years worth of SP into a 12 year old character that couldn't possibly have trained for 17 years.
It might sounds rude but... do you know that change should bringing something new into the game? Furthermore implanting 5 years worth of SP into a 12 year old character is very inefficient thing to do.
it might not be. my oldest is 7 years old and it would run 100% efficiency. but the inefficient of over 80mil sp doesnt isnt the point it just cost more. |
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
212
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 21:02:51 -
[5371] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I can't help but have this feeling that people here don't know what P2W actually means anymore. I buy a character from the Bazaar and that's not P2W because I have to buy it whole, but it becomes P2W the moment I can buy that skillset on my character from the same supplier? Buying a bazaar toon is best fit for purpose it maybe able to fly your marauder and T3C but also a hulk and other useless skills and come with all the baggage associated, It wasnt asked for CCP introduced it as a counter to RMT. A toon built from 500k skill packets whoever sells them is a zero day perfect built pilot with no affiliations - If you cannot see the difference in that
The bazaar is pay2progress the skillpackets is pay2win !
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1704
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 21:10:53 -
[5372] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:I know it sounds like semantics but buying a 5 year old character that can only ever have gained 'x' amount of skill points training is different from implanting 5 years worth of SP into a 12 year old character that couldn't possibly have trained for 17 years.
A mega-corp buying the SP packets to make a fleet's Titian / Carrier / whateverrole pilots have perfect V skills and have an edge that just could not exist unless it was paid for. Again, what's the issue with a characters SP not being explicitly tied to age? People keep stating this as a benefit of the current system, but never actually explaining how it's beneficial. It it's not, why hold on to it so dearly.
Iowa Banshee wrote:Buying a bazaar toon is best fit for purpose it maybe able to fly your marauder and T3C but also a hulk and other useless skills and come with all the baggage associated, It wasnt asked for CCP introduced it as a counter to RMT. A toon built from 500k skill packets whoever sells them is a zero day perfect built pilot with no affiliations - If you cannot see the difference in that Shocked
The bazaar is pay2progress the skillpackets is pay2win ! So wait, the logic now is that it's only P2W because I'm ending up with a less capable character in a game with no current penalties for "wasted" SP? The better, more flexible character is not P2W, but the focused, single use character is? What should shock you is that you just turned having a flexible, roundly trained character into a negative. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 21:14:53 -
[5373] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote: it might not be. my oldest is 7 years old and it would run 100% efficiency.
Good for you.
Lady Rift wrote: but the inefficient of over 80mil sp doesnt isnt the point it just cost more.
Mmmmm... efficient - utilizing a particular commodity or product with the least waste of resources or effort.
Pinky Bear
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
921
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 21:18:02 -
[5374] - Quote
Stalking Mantis wrote:"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 Source
You do understand that skilling a character is an investment of money while people buying sp with isk are investing time right? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1705
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 21:20:24 -
[5375] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: I know it sounds like semantics but buying a 5 year old character that can only ever have gained 'x' amount of skill points training is different from implanting 5 years worth of SP into a 12 year old character that couldn't possibly have trained for 17 years.
It might sounds rude but... do you know that change should bringing something new into the game? Furthermore implanting 5 years worth of SP into a 12 year old character is very inefficient thing to do. it might not be. my oldest is 7 years old and it would run 100% efficiency. but the inefficient of over 80mil sp doesnt isnt the point it just cost more. Your oldest isn't the "problem" as people describe it. They don't care if you have less SP than your age suggest, there is only a problem if you have more.
And cost is a factor to consider unless a) The cost of SP is trivial or b) The player procuring the SP has infinite resources. Otherwise it costing more is a deterrent. |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
923
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 21:45:10 -
[5376] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Amanda Orion wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:[quote=Magnus Roden]That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply.
How can so many people not see the difference? Each SP will be generated according to the time limits. But if you take many characters all generating SP and transfer it to the same character, THAT character will have broken the time to SP rule. I cant decide whether people choose to ignore this, or whether people's logic really is that flawed. I agree - A character has a hard limit on the number of SP it can acquire over a set period of time. The purchase of SP over this amount breaks a core concept of the game. You cannot go the Bazaar and buy a 25 year old Character but soon you will be able to buy the SP to make one. So, if you are going to sell skill points why bother with the whole trading game - Just put them in the store and do Aurum for Skill points - Accept that its pay to win & don't disguise it as trading "in-game" skills or recycling skills
Just because it has always been that way doesn't mean it is a "core concept of the game". This is not "know how much sp a character could have by its age online" is it? I mean that is one of the stupidest reasons not to do it you could come up with.
Similarly crapping on idea that will be of benefit to hundreds or thousands of players who want to clean up training mistakes, catch up with older players, make up for times they couldn't afford the sub or try new features earlier than training would allow is really dumb if you are basing it on the imagined possibility one crazy person might spend $300k on a 450 mil sp char (your 27 years trained character).
Seriously if somebody wants to do that more power to them, it will allow 10k players who cant afford to play the game to play for a month, let 10k other players make isk out of their bad training mistakes from 5 years ago when they were into a completely different part of the game, and give ccp 300k to continue developing the game. You are seriously complaining about this? When eves skill system means the majority of that 450mil sp will be useless at any given time, and anybody with that cash could already do it far more efficiently by buying all the best min/maxed chars in the bazarr?
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
16
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 22:36:06 -
[5377] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Amanda Orion wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:[quote=Magnus Roden]That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply.
How can so many people not see the difference? Each SP will be generated according to the time limits. But if you take many characters all generating SP and transfer it to the same character, THAT character will have broken the time to SP rule. I cant decide whether people choose to ignore this, or whether people's logic really is that flawed. I agree - A character has a hard limit on the number of SP it can acquire over a set period of time. The purchase of SP over this amount breaks a core concept of the game. You cannot go the Bazaar and buy a 25 year old Character but soon you will be able to buy the SP to make one. So, if you are going to sell skill points why bother with the whole trading game - Just put them in the store and do Aurum for Skill points - Accept that its pay to win & don't disguise it as trading "in-game" skills or recycling skills Just because it has always been that way doesn't mean it is a "core concept of the game". This is not "know how much sp a character could have by its age online" is it? I mean that is one of the stupidest reasons not to do it you could come up with. Similarly crapping on idea that will be of benefit to hundreds or thousands of players who want to clean up training mistakes, catch up with older players, make up for times they couldn't afford the sub or try new features earlier than training would allow is really dumb if you are basing it on the imagined possibility one crazy person might spend $300k on a 450 mil sp char (your 27 years trained character). Seriously if somebody wants to do that more power to them, it will allow 10k players who cant afford to play the game to play for a month, let 10k other players make isk out of their bad training mistakes from 5 years ago when they were into a completely different part of the game, and give ccp 300k to continue developing the game. You are seriously complaining about this? When eves skill system means the majority of that 450mil sp will be useless at any given time, and anybody with that cash could already do it far more efficiently by buying all the best min/maxed chars in the bazarr? And obvioulsy they cant do it for Aurum, that would dienfranchise all the players who can't afford it in rl. You really want that? Sp will be bought with isk, plenty of people (probably the vast majority) will be buying it without using rl cash.
If you want be able to undo mistakes then just create something akin to the muli-pilot training cert and have it liquidate a characters SP for reallocation on that character.
Then there will be no need to farm toons for SP unless you want a pay to win system - in which case as I said before use Aurum to buy them - Btw you can buy aurum with plex so the ISK rich can pay to win just like the RL rich
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 22:48:00 -
[5378] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote: the ISK rich can pay to win just like the RL rich
I have 2 questions: 1) What is "win" mean? 2) Why you so much hate rich people?
Pinky Bear
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
924
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 22:55:33 -
[5379] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Doddy wrote:
Just because it has always been that way doesn't mean it is a "core concept of the game". This is not "know how much sp a character could have by its age online" is it? I mean that is one of the stupidest reasons not to do it you could come up with.
Similarly crapping on idea that will be of benefit to hundreds or thousands of players who want to clean up training mistakes, catch up with older players, make up for times they couldn't afford the sub or try new features earlier than training would allow is really dumb if you are basing it on the imagined possibility one crazy person might spend $300k on a 450 mil sp char (your 27 years trained character).
Seriously if somebody wants to do that more power to them, it will allow 10k players who cant afford to play the game to play for a month, let 10k other players make isk out of their bad training mistakes from 5 years ago when they were into a completely different part of the game, and give ccp 300k to continue developing the game. You are seriously complaining about this? When eves skill system means the majority of that 450mil sp will be useless at any given time, and anybody with that cash could already do it far more efficiently by buying all the best min/maxed chars in the bazarr?
And obvioulsy they cant do it for Aurum, that would dienfranchise all the players who can't afford it in rl. You really want that? Sp will be bought with isk, plenty of people (probably the vast majority) will be buying it without using rl cash.
If you want be able to undo mistakes then just create something akin to the muli-pilot training cert and have it liquidate a characters SP for reallocation on that character. Then there will be no need to farm toons for SP unless you want a pay to win system - in which case as I said before use Aurum to buy them - Btw you can buy aurum with plex so the ISK rich can pay to win just like the RL rich
So now you want to do 2 things, one of which is unlimited, instead of 1, which is limited, and still leave people constrained by their sp (new players, players who have lost training due to rl money shortage etc) in the dark, thats just great, well done, you acheived nothing. You even took the market forces out of it so its irrelevant to gameplay, great.
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
16
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 23:02:46 -
[5380] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: the ISK rich can pay to win just like the RL rich
I have 2 questions: 1) What is "win" mean? 2) Why you so much hate rich people?
(1) I'm not getting into the definition of pay to win - lets say - yet another & more obvious method of using RL money to gain an advantage in the game.
(2) You were the one who was concerned that paying with aurum would ""dienfranchise all the players who can't afford it in rl" just pointing out it disenfranchises ones that cannot afford it with ISK in eve as well |
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Doddy
Esoteric Operations
924
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 23:08:48 -
[5381] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: the ISK rich can pay to win just like the RL rich
I have 2 questions: 1) What is "win" mean? 2) Why you so much hate rich people? (1) I'm not getting into the definition of pay to win - lets say - yet another & more obvious method of using RL money to gain an advantage in the game. (2) You were the one who was concerned that paying with aurum would ""dienfranchise all the players who can't afford it in rl" just pointing out it disenfranchises ones that cannot afford it with ISK in eve as well
I was the one worrying about disenfranchising. And how can not being able to afford something within the game be disenfranchising someone? You think we should all have unlimited isk?
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
925
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 00:08:18 -
[5382] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Then there will be no need to farm toons for SP unless you want a pay to win system - in which case as I said before use Aurum to buy them - Btw you can buy aurum with plex so the ISK rich can pay to win just like the RL rich
How on earth is this farmable?
Say you want to farm yourself double training speed, a measley 1.5 million sp a month onto your main char (80 mil sp plus).
First you need to make 10 accs and train them 3 months to get them to the point the can use the TSPs. So thats 30 plex right away (you could buy bazarr chars or use TSPs but the cost should be similar), plus another couple to buy them implants etc. Then you need to pay a plex each month to train. They train enough to make 3 TSPs each a month, but you need to pay aur to make each TSP. Current guesses say about a third or a quarter of a plex, so say 3 more plex for the transfers. So 33 plex per month.
You seriousy think anyone is going to pay 30 plex outlay then 33 plex a month for 1.5 mil sp? By the time you gained 30 million sp for your main you could have trained 10 40 mil specialised chars which are always more useful than having more skills on your main anyway, plus you would have saved 60 plex in making tsps and thus afford a new main. If someone is stupid enough to do that it is fine by me, they will put the price of plex down for the rest of us.
For young chars it is redundant, you will be better off just training the char itself or buying a new one. For mid range chars the pay off might be 5 or 6 mil sp, but then they will just reach the 80 mil limit quicker and drop to 1.5 mil sp.
Its no use for farming isk either, you pay 1.5 plex a month per char to get 1.5 plex worth of sp a month back, minus your 4 plex outlay per char to start with, great. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 00:13:09 -
[5383] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:
(1) I'm not getting into the definition of pay to win - lets say - yet another & more obvious method of using RL money to gain an advantage in the game.
Lets say there is no particular defenition of "win", hence there is no pay2win.
Iowa Banshee wrote: (2) You were the one who was concerned that paying with aurum would ""dienfranchise all the players who can't afford it in rl" just pointing out it disenfranchises ones that cannot afford it with ISK in eve as well
That isn't my concern. I just asked you question. So you worry about disenfranchising. But yet still nothing specific.
Pinky Bear
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 02:41:34 -
[5384] - Quote
Doddy wrote:This is not "know how much sp a character could have by its age online" is it? It is now.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
16
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 02:58:09 -
[5385] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: the ISK rich can pay to win just like the RL rich
I have 2 questions: 1) What is "win" mean? 2) Why you so much hate rich people? (1) I'm not getting into the definition of pay to win - lets say - yet another & more obvious method of using RL money to gain an advantage in the game. (2) You were the one who was concerned that paying with aurum would ""dienfranchise all the players who can't afford it in rl" just pointing out it disenfranchises ones that cannot afford it with ISK in eve as well I was the one worrying about disenfranchising. And how can not being able to afford something within the game be disenfranchising someone? You think we should all have unlimited isk?
you do know you can buy Aurum with iSK don't you .... |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
16
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 03:06:47 -
[5386] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:
Then there will be no need to farm toons for SP unless you want a pay to win system - in which case as I said before use Aurum to buy them - Btw you can buy aurum with plex so the ISK rich can pay to win just like the RL rich
How on earth is this farmable? Say you want to farm yourself double training speed, a measley 1.5 million sp a month onto your main char (80 mil sp plus). First you need to make 10 accs and train them 3 months to get them to the point the can use the TSPs. So thats 30 plex right away (you could buy bazarr chars or use TSPs but the cost should be similar), plus another couple to buy them implants etc. Then you need to pay a plex each month to train. They train enough to make 3 TSPs each a month, but you need to pay aur to make each TSP. Current guesses say about a third or a quarter of a plex, so say 3 more plex for the transfers. So 33 plex per month. You seriousy think anyone is going to pay 30 plex outlay then 33 plex a month for 1.5 mil sp? By the time you gained 30 million sp for your main you could have trained 10 40 mil specialised chars which are always more useful than having more skills on your main anyway, plus you would have saved 60 plex in making tsps and thus afford a new main. If someone is stupid enough to do that it is fine by me, they will put the price of plex down for the rest of us. For young chars it is redundant, you will be better off just training the char itself or buying a new one. For mid range chars the pay off might be 5 or 6 mil sp, but then they will just reach the 80 mil limit quicker and drop to 1.5 mil sp. Its no use for farming isk either, you pay 1.5 plex a month per char to get 1.5 plex worth of sp a month back, minus your 4 plex outlay per char to start with, great.
So - by your logic this system costs to much to be viable (please - don't give me more math) as the previous post said it is a way to make money off old toons - I just assume that one of you is wrong
Edit : oops my bad both posts were by you |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
237
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 03:57:44 -
[5387] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Lady Rift wrote: it might not be. my oldest is 7 years old and it would run 100% efficiency.
Good for you. Lady Rift wrote: but the inefficient of over 80mil sp doesnt isnt the point it just cost more.
Mmmmm... efficient - utilizing a particular commodity or product with the least waste of resources or effort.
these packets are the most efficient way to gain sp above waiting out time no matter what sp you start at. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1705
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 04:05:33 -
[5388] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:General Lootit wrote:Lady Rift wrote: it might not be. my oldest is 7 years old and it would run 100% efficiency.
Good for you. Lady Rift wrote: but the inefficient of over 80mil sp doesnt isnt the point it just cost more.
Mmmmm... efficient - utilizing a particular commodity or product with the least waste of resources or effort. these packets are the most efficient way to gain sp above waiting out time no matter what sp you start at. Depends on what if anything this would do to the Bazaar, AUR pricing for extractors and the amount of SP you want. The Bazaar and the packets would be the only 2 means for getting SP aside from normal training, and with AUR price per extractor set there will always be a point where buying a character is more efficient, though we wouldn't know what that is without seeing the effects on both markets. |
Yasuo Aldent
Hammer of Hephaestus Reign of Olympus
6
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 04:52:07 -
[5389] - Quote
So, currently what the system will be is to remove a skill and put it into an item and then sell that item. I think the broken part is selling that item and then getting unallocated SP. A happy medium would be that when a player removes a skill from a toon and combines it to make this item, the item can allocate SP in ONLY that skill that was removed, down to the level removed. For example, say if I wanted to remove gallente BC 5. (assuming I did not have skills trained that use this skill as a prereq). I could remove, say, one level of gal BC, I drop to gal BC 4. That then can be use to create an item that can ONLY be injected when a toon has gal BC 4 trained and will get them to gal BC 5. Additionally, I could remove all levels of gal BC and a toon could inject this and receive all levels of gal BC.
Something like this I believe would fix the issue since the market would be relatively "flooded" with the lower time and importance skills (racial frig/destroyer 5, mining barge 5) since players will most likely want to trash those (especially if prereq skills can be trashed so your cap pilot can get rid of frigs 3 etc.), while the higher importance skills such as HAC, T3C, or whatever will most likely be kept and few would be on the market.
This system would allow new players to pay their way into something like a tactical destroyer or maybe t2 heavy missles for their drake but not crucial skills that most vet players won't want to part with. In general, it would keep new players from acquiring extreme amounts of SP quickly but might give them that extra boost they need to keep playing the game. |
Avanda Redblade
SL33P3R C3LL
10
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 07:15:06 -
[5390] - Quote
"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time."
CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 Source
Combine the above crowd-pleasing, short-sighted statement with the psychology of a gamer who has to at least believe he has a chance of "catching up" to the best and you have a game that is dying, no matter how many pretty graphics you add. |
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
214
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 08:01:10 -
[5391] - Quote
The hypocrisy of some people here is staggering, if there is no difference between advancing using any current in game / bazaar methods, the end goal is to help all including the new players then its quite simple.
To remove it from internal manipulation from anyone in game.
CCP to sell it for aurum in the store so current people can buy with isk and to be sold on the website where the plex are sold so that anyone with cash or new players that want to advance but have no in game currency. It will still have its depreciation scale.
Anyone can look at it how they like whether it be pay2progress or pay2win. If its done this way there is no downside except its another MT added, it cannot be manipulated at all , its totally accessible to all worry free.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
493
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 08:15:25 -
[5392] - Quote
Avanda Redblade wrote:Combine the above crowd-pleasing, short-sighted statement with the psychology of a gamer who has to at least believe he has a chance of "catching up" to the best and you have a game that is dying, no matter how many pretty graphics you add. They'll never catch up, they will hit the wall at 50 mil SP. Homo walleticus don't use brain for thinking. More money for CCP? In game that has subscription? It's either, multitransactions or subscription, not both. adding fuel to the fire: The Benefits of a Skillpoint Economy comparing League or World of Tanks to EvE? Milions of players to 30k average on one server? This will end well...
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Magnus Roden
Center for the Advancement of Human Endeavour
40
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 09:44:16 -
[5393] - Quote
Avanda Redblade wrote:"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time."CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 SourceCombine the above crowd-pleasing, short-sighted statement with the psychology of a gamer who has to at least believe he has a chance of "catching up" to the best and you have a game that is dying, no matter how many pretty graphics you add.
It's been growing all this time, right up to the point where CCP decided to focus less on PVP.
Excellence is the gradual result of always striving to do better.
|
Magnus Roden
Center for the Advancement of Human Endeavour
40
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 09:47:19 -
[5394] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Avanda Redblade wrote:Combine the above crowd-pleasing, short-sighted statement with the psychology of a gamer who has to at least believe he has a chance of "catching up" to the best and you have a game that is dying, no matter how many pretty graphics you add. They'll never catch up, they will hit the wall at 50 mil SP. Homo walleticus don't use brain for thinking. More money for CCP? In game that has subscription? It's either, multitransactions or subscription, not both. adding fuel to the fire: The Benefits of a Skillpoint Economycomparing League or World of Tanks to EvE? Milions of players to 30k average on one server? This will end well...
It's not surprising a Goon would see the benefit because it will favour large entities who take on a lot of fresh new players, they make for very good customers.
Excellence is the gradual result of always striving to do better.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 12:02:08 -
[5395] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:They'll never catch up, they will hit the wall at 50 mil SP. Homo walleticus don't use brain for thinking. More money for CCP? In game that has subscription? It's either, multitransactions or subscription, not both. adding fuel to the fire: The Benefits of a Skillpoint Economycomparing League or World of Tanks to EvE? Milions of players to 30k average on one server? This will end well... According to 5 stages of loss you are on 4-th stage.
Denial
Jeremiah Saken wrote: Really CCP?
Anger
Jeremiah Saken wrote: is bull****. It's not for everyone, for low SPs players only.
Bargaining
Jeremiah Saken wrote: Just make players pay more, and there are players who are willing to pay more. It's all about the price.
Pinky Bear
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
171
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 13:00:38 -
[5396] - Quote
Doddy wrote: Similarly crapping on idea that will be of benefit to hundreds or thousands of players who want to clean up training mistakes, catch up with older players, make up for times they couldn't afford the sub or try new features earlier than training would allow is really dumb if you are basing it on the imagined possibility one crazy person might spend $300k on a 450 mil sp char (your 27 years trained character).
About as dumb as imagining everybody who wants to do any of the things you listed will be able to afford the time or money to do so, especially new players.
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
172
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 13:07:58 -
[5397] - Quote
Doddy wrote: I was the one worrying about disenfranchising. And how can not being able to afford something within the game be disenfranchising someone? You think we should all have unlimited isk?
No, players should not have unlimited isk, but disenfranchising a large amount of new players because they can't afford the real life cash they will need to keep up with their rich IRL peers (since they will not be experienced enough to make the isk in game) will create greater perception of a "skillpoint barrier" and will potentially harm retention, even new account numbers.
Making SPs more available to a few new guys who can afford it comes at the cost of pissing off the likely larger number of new player who can't.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 13:24:29 -
[5398] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Doddy wrote: I was the one worrying about disenfranchising. And how can not being able to afford something within the game be disenfranchising someone? You think we should all have unlimited isk?
No, players should not have unlimited isk, but disenfranchising a large amount of new players because they can't afford the real life cash they will need to keep up with their rich IRL peers (since they will not be experienced enough to make the isk in game) will create greater perception of a "skillpoint barrier" and will potentially harm retention, even new account numbers. Making SPs more available to a few new guys who can afford it comes at the cost of pissing off the likely larger number of new player who can't. Mr. Date of Birth: 2007-10-31 you know so much about problems of newbies.
Pinky Bear
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
173
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 13:37:06 -
[5399] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Doddy wrote: I was the one worrying about disenfranchising. And how can not being able to afford something within the game be disenfranchising someone? You think we should all have unlimited isk?
No, players should not have unlimited isk, but disenfranchising a large amount of new players because they can't afford the real life cash they will need to keep up with their rich IRL peers (since they will not be experienced enough to make the isk in game) will create greater perception of a "skillpoint barrier" and will potentially harm retention, even new account numbers. Making SPs more available to a few new guys who can afford it comes at the cost of pissing off the likely larger number of new player who can't. Mr. Date of Birth: 2007-10-31 you know so much about problems of newbies.
Is this post a joke ?
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
237
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 13:38:53 -
[5400] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Doddy wrote: I was the one worrying about disenfranchising. And how can not being able to afford something within the game be disenfranchising someone? You think we should all have unlimited isk?
No, players should not have unlimited isk, but disenfranchising a large amount of new players because they can't afford the real life cash they will need to keep up with their rich IRL peers (since they will not be experienced enough to make the isk in game) will create greater perception of a "skillpoint barrier" and will potentially harm retention, even new account numbers. Making SPs more available to a few new guys who can afford it comes at the cost of pissing off the likely larger number of new player who can't. Mr. Date of Birth: 2007-10-31 you know so much about problems of newbies.
as hes that old i assume he knows alot of the problems of newbies. |
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 13:39:34 -
[5401] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:General Lootit wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Doddy wrote: I was the one worrying about disenfranchising. And how can not being able to afford something within the game be disenfranchising someone? You think we should all have unlimited isk?
No, players should not have unlimited isk, but disenfranchising a large amount of new players because they can't afford the real life cash they will need to keep up with their rich IRL peers (since they will not be experienced enough to make the isk in game) will create greater perception of a "skillpoint barrier" and will potentially harm retention, even new account numbers. Making SPs more available to a few new guys who can afford it comes at the cost of pissing off the likely larger number of new player who can't. Mr. Date of Birth: 2007-10-31 you know so much about problems of newbies. Is this post a joke ? Depends on how you perceive it. For me it's not a joke exept part of "you know".
Pinky Bear
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 13:46:38 -
[5402] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote: as hes that old i assume he knows alot of the problems of newbies.
What are concerns of grandma about you? Does she know about that you against new change in EVE?
Pinky Bear
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
926
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 14:22:25 -
[5403] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: the ISK rich can pay to win just like the RL rich
I have 2 questions: 1) What is "win" mean? 2) Why you so much hate rich people? (1) I'm not getting into the definition of pay to win - lets say - yet another & more obvious method of using RL money to gain an advantage in the game. (2) You were the one who was concerned that paying with aurum would ""dienfranchise all the players who can't afford it in rl" just pointing out it disenfranchises ones that cannot afford it with ISK in eve as well I was the one worrying about disenfranchising. And how can not being able to afford something within the game be disenfranchising someone? You think we should all have unlimited isk? you do know you can buy Aurum with iSK don't you ....
Sure, but why make people jump through hoops?
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
216
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 14:29:32 -
[5404] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:General Lootit wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Doddy wrote: I was the one worrying about disenfranchising. And how can not being able to afford something within the game be disenfranchising someone? You think we should all have unlimited isk?
No, players should not have unlimited isk, but disenfranchising a large amount of new players because they can't afford the real life cash they will need to keep up with their rich IRL peers (since they will not be experienced enough to make the isk in game) will create greater perception of a "skillpoint barrier" and will potentially harm retention, even new account numbers. Making SPs more available to a few new guys who can afford it comes at the cost of pissing off the likely larger number of new player who can't. Mr. Date of Birth: 2007-10-31 you know so much about problems of newbies. Is this post a joke ? You do have to forgive the resident troll with his less than intelligent statements, He thinks that everyone above 50 mill skillpoints was granted them from the jovian's ........ Only the new batch of new players have it harsh
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 14:33:53 -
[5405] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Portmanteau wrote:General Lootit wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Doddy wrote: I was the one worrying about disenfranchising. And how can not being able to afford something within the game be disenfranchising someone? You think we should all have unlimited isk?
No, players should not have unlimited isk, but disenfranchising a large amount of new players because they can't afford the real life cash they will need to keep up with their rich IRL peers (since they will not be experienced enough to make the isk in game) will create greater perception of a "skillpoint barrier" and will potentially harm retention, even new account numbers. Making SPs more available to a few new guys who can afford it comes at the cost of pissing off the likely larger number of new player who can't. Mr. Date of Birth: 2007-10-31 you know so much about problems of newbies. Is this post a joke ? You do have to forgive the resident troll with his less than intelligent statements, He thinks that everyone above 50 mill skillpoints was granted them from the jovian's ........ Only the new batch of new players have it harsh Actually I think that someone here talking too much for others.
Pinky Bear
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Doddy
Esoteric Operations
926
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 14:44:47 -
[5406] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Doddy wrote: I was the one worrying about disenfranchising. And how can not being able to afford something within the game be disenfranchising someone? You think we should all have unlimited isk?
No, players should not have unlimited isk, but disenfranchising a large amount of new players because they can't afford the real life cash they will need to keep up with their rich IRL peers (since they will not be experienced enough to make the isk in game) will create greater perception of a "skillpoint barrier" and will potentially harm retention, even new account numbers. Making SPs more available to a few new guys who can afford it comes at the cost of pissing off the likely larger number of new player who can't.
How is that remotely a legitimate argument? Implants already create exactly this, it is in game already and has been for years, same goes with skill book purchases. People can already speed thier skill progression through Rl cash, has been that way ever since Plex were introduced.
Your argument is basically that aspiration is a terrible thing that somehow makes people stop trying, pretty much the opposite of what most of human existence proves. For some reason the possibility of speeding your skill progression by playing the game will put people off playing the game? Wtf nonsense is that?
And who are they "keeping up with"? What difference is there that somebody who started same day as me uses his bought isk to buy 500k sp instead of a set of plus fives? Plex being available to isk has already put player progression in the world of rl money.
Do I think there should be limits to prevent the few super rich (whether rl or in game) swallowing up all the excess sp? definately. Put a limit on how many TSP a character can add in a month (i would say 10 but maybe less would work), put a hardcap on skills (i woud put it at the maximum possible sp anyone playing from day 1 could have). Nobody who wants the system to just help give their friends a start, respec thier chars or transfer sp from a main to an alt would have a problem with any of those. Older players could only at most speed thier progression by around 30%, no matter how rich they are. There would be restricted demand so prices would remain low and find an equilibrium (if there is no limit you would see everybody dump their unwanted sp day 1 and prices would rise constantly after that) |
Kaihua Longzhu
Children of Exile
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 15:02:27 -
[5407] - Quote
I can realistically see people getting very angry and quitting over this after spending years and thousands of dollars to get their characters where they are now. I can also see a lot of nullsec pilots coming into high sec and making Burn Jita look like a spring picnic...
Just sayin' |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
928
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 15:25:45 -
[5408] - Quote
Kaihua Longzhu wrote:I can realistically see people getting very angry and quitting over this after spending years and thousands of dollars to get their characters where they are now. I can also see a lot of nullsec pilots coming into high sec and making Burn Jita look like a spring picnic...
Just sayin'
These null sec pilots who are supposedly the ones getting the massive advantage? That will be the day.
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
493
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 15:29:13 -
[5409] - Quote
Quote: Implants already create exactly this, it is in game already and has been for years, same goes with skill book purchases. What implants created? Ability to train skills instantly?
Doddy wrote:Plex being available to isk has already put player progression in the world of rl money. Apart from baazar, what progresson are you talking about? Buying hulls that cannot be used?
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Bantara
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
48
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 15:49:57 -
[5410] - Quote
Bantara wrote:I would immediately stop recommending Eve and pull my sub. Immediately and not return. Too many other games. It's hard enough to find time for Eve, knowing that I can run into someone who bought an all-V char without even having to take another character slot(possibly requiring an additional account) is quite a deterrent.
As someone said on the first page, just build a renaming and re-sculpting feature. I have to admit that I'm not quite this fired up anymore, but I still think this is a bad idea. For a lot of the reasons stated by others who also don't like it. I know there are arguments from the in-favor side and I am not saying their arguments are illogical or otherwise don't hold water. However when it comes to what I want from a game and game design priorities(especially for MMOs) the pro arguments fall under the con arguments in priority/preference. |
|
Kaihua Longzhu
Children of Exile
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 16:21:45 -
[5411] - Quote
I'm just saying I can see it happen. I ain't saying it's going to. |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
928
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 16:47:24 -
[5412] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Quote: Implants already create exactly this, it is in game already and has been for years, same goes with skill book purchases. What implants created? Ability to train skills instantly? Doddy wrote:Plex being available to isk has already put player progression in the world of rl money. Apart from baazar, what progresson are you talking about? Buying hulls that cannot be used?
If you plex isk, and use the isk to buy implants, you have bought sp. It is not instant like the sp packets but over time is a far greater gain of sp. High value skillbooks are also something which slows skill training, you can't train them until you buy them, but if you plex isk to buy them you have again an advantage. Same goes for peope who bought cerebral accelerators when they were a thing, or these blood raider boosters. All progression which can be bought with rl money via plex. Thats even before you consider the bazaar. Of course ability to train in the first place is exactly the same, sp for cash, someone who couldn't maintain thier sub for a month is going to be 1.5 mil behind people who could afford it, tsps are no more unfair than that and could actually allow someone to make up for such gaps with isk.
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1830
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 17:01:27 -
[5413] - Quote
Just imagine how this feature will look to a new player who is not familiar with EVE.
It will lock a bit similar to what typical free2play titles are offering. Slow SP progress and you can accumulate currency ingame for which you then can buy ships or invest them in more SP. It will appear as if the slow accumulation of SP is on purpose so you actually HAVE to spend real money to get to your Battleship in an acceptable time, which is obviously the goal for every player poisoned with the expectation of a linear progression from other MMOs.
In other words it will appear as a seriously overpriced free2play paywall in a game that is NOT free2play!
They will just shake their heads about the greed of the developer without ever understanding the background of the system and simply quit.
This is my serious concern and I think this has to be addressed.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
17
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 17:06:53 -
[5414] - Quote
This may be a long post - TLDR - The 1st part is remembered from a real conversation edited down but it serves to illustrate the difference between EVE and run-of-the-mill MMOs.
About eve convo - 2015
(me) Still playing SWTOR (TD) No I'm doing Destiny now
(me) When did you swtich (TD) Last month - I started a new character on Saturday - a combat-mech (?) upto level 20 already, you still playing that space ships game
(me) Eve online - Yeah been playing for 2 or 3 years (TD) I saw the youtube link with the 3000 players and the big ships shooting beams at each other looked pretty cool
(me) Yeah that was a big fight a while back the bigest ships are called Titains (TD) Do you fly one?
(me) Crap no - I've only been playing a couple of years You have a lot of skills to learn to fly one of those (TD) Skills?
(me) Yeah - anything you want to do in game requires skills - Miner, Explorer, manufacturing and you can train for lots of different ships - if you want to you can sit in a station never go into space and trade on the market - eve has its own economy (TD) That's cool I could get into being a stock broker - whats it like
(me) I don't really know - The skills are trained in real time - You usually pick ones to train for what you fancy doing at the time - later you pick what you need to get the cool ships or whatever you want the character to be - I started with mining, moved on to exploring now I am working on combat ships - Haven't done market trading yet
What I fear the about eve convo in the Near Future will become
(TD) Still Playing EVE (me) Yeah - for now - I Started a new character on Saturday - a market trader - I've got all the skills up to level V already
There is no pro- buying SP post in this Thread-nought that alleviates this fear |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
493
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 17:09:27 -
[5415] - Quote
Doddy wrote:If you plex isk, and use the isk to buy implants, you have bought sp. No I didn't. I bought advatange that can be easy taken from me via destroying my pod, and it need time to applay the bonuses from them. It's not insta gratification. Risk vs reward to the very core.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
217
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 17:16:46 -
[5416] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Quote: Implants already create exactly this, it is in game already and has been for years, same goes with skill book purchases. What implants created? Ability to train skills instantly? Doddy wrote:Plex being available to isk has already put player progression in the world of rl money. Apart from baazar, what progresson are you talking about? Buying hulls that cannot be used? If you plex isk, and use the isk to buy implants, you have bought sp. It is not instant like the sp packets but over time is a far greater gain of sp. High value skillbooks are also something which slows skill training, you can't train them until you buy them, but if you plex isk to buy them you have again an advantage. Same goes for peope who bought cerebral accelerators when they were a thing, or these blood raider boosters. All progression which can be bought with rl money via plex. Thats even before you consider the bazaar. Of course ability to train in the first place is exactly the same, sp for cash, someone who couldn't maintain thier sub for a month is going to be 1.5 mil behind people who could afford it, tsps are no more unfair than that and could actually allow someone to make up for such gaps with isk. Implants dont give you extra skillpoints they just increase the amount gained per hour, they can also be lost just as quickly
High Value Skillbooks do not slow training down, You can still get upto 2700 per hour whatever you train its just the rank that increases the time it takes to complete a level.
Trying to infer that your sub is equal to skillpoints alone is no different than saying CCP already sell skillpoints from the bazaar, Its their intellectual property and they're just allowing you to transfer their skillpoints ( character) from one account to another for a set fee of 2 plex.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 17:37:12 -
[5417] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote: They(new players) will just shake their heads about the greed of the developer without ever understanding the background of the system and simply quit.
Just for example
Daniela Doran wrote: I see, so it's the money CCP is making from Character Bazaar that's spawned this greed.
Daniela Doran wrote: I'm losing all interest to log in anymore thanks to you.
Newbie since 2013-03-04
Pinky Bear
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 18:19:47 -
[5418] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: you do know you can buy Aurum with iSK don't you ....
Sure, but why make people jump through hoops? Yeah actually just have aurum in tokens that are items you can transport and sell in jita (or lose on the jita gate in your shuttle)
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
190
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 18:21:43 -
[5419] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: And patch bringing this will be different from others since game fundamental is going to be changed. So it is not just if someone likes ship, pos, missions, whatever changes. This is the biggest change ever as it is change in CCP`s relations to its customers.
Yeap, it's crucial changing. Like inventing prostetic limbs(remember your sports metaphor about prestige)... Is it right thing to disqualify person from challenge who suffered from loosing limb but now he has prostetic one?
Totally wrong analogy since people with prosthetic limbs are not allowed to compete in regular competitions, they have their own. So it is obviously right.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
177
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 18:38:59 -
[5420] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Portmanteau wrote:
No, players should not have unlimited isk, but disenfranchising a large amount of new players because they can't afford the real life cash they will need to keep up with their rich IRL peers (since they will not be experienced enough to make the isk in game) will create greater perception of a "skillpoint barrier" and will potentially harm retention, even new account numbers.
Making SPs more available to a few new guys who can afford it comes at the cost of pissing off the likely larger number of new player who can't.
How is that remotely a legitimate argument? Implants already create exactly this, it is in game already and has been for years, same goes with skill book purchases. People can already speed thier skill progression through Rl cash, has been that way ever since Plex were introduced.
Implants do not create this at all. Rich IRL players can ofc drop a plex and buy a full set of +5s if they so desire, but for those that cannot afford to do this a number of options still remain. Learning implants come in +1 to +5 flavours and while the +5s retail at around 100mil the +4s retail at around 20 mil, 1/5th of the price while giving 4/5ths of the effect. Player can also line up a skill queue using 2 attributes (if they are min maxing properly for remaps they will do this anyway) so they can further cut the cost of a full set of implants to a set of 2. For around 40mil they can achieve nearly the same effect as a full set of +5 implants worth over 500 mil and the same can be done with +3 for less than 20 mil.
TSP will offer none of these scaling options, there will be no 4/5 sized packets for 1/5 the price, no way to min max them and they will cost in the hundreds of millions. You simply cannot make a reasonable comparison of the two.
Quote:Your argument is basically that aspiration is a terrible thing that somehow makes people stop trying, pretty much the opposite of what most of human existence proves. For some reason the possibility of speeding your skill progression by playing the game will put people off playing the game? Wtf nonsense is that?
No it isn't, did you even read what I wrote ? My argument is that everyone aspires in EvE and it's exactly this aspiration which will lead to player dissatisfaction when it is unfulfilled for reasons as crappy as not having enough money IRL.
Quote:
[quote]Do I think there should be limits to prevent the few super rich (whether rl or in game) swallowing up all the excess sp? definately. Put a limit on how many TSP a character can add in a month (i would say 10 but maybe less would work), put a hardcap on skills (i woud put it at the maximum possible sp anyone playing from day 1 could have). Nobody who wants the system to just help give their friends a start, respec thier chars or transfer sp from a main to an alt would have a problem with any of those. Older players could only at most speed thier progression by around 30%, no matter how rich they are. There would be restricted demand so prices would remain low and find an equilibrium (if there is no limit you would see everybody dump their unwanted sp day 1 and prices would rise constantly after that)
A far better way for CCP to help new players (if that's actually even one of their real reasons for doing this) would be to leave older player to live with their decisions and concentrate on giving SP boosts to new player in other ways that cost nothing and can be obtained by anyone regardless of real life financial concern.
*Attributes can be done away with finally and all set to max.
*New players can be given several million SP at the start instead of a few thousand (cue tears from "I did it the hard way" vets - **** them)
*skill training times can be adjusted to compensate the difference in amount of skill that were there in 2003 and what we have now
*core skills can be looked at so that certain modules that require lvl5 only need lvl4 enabling faster entry into the wider game
There's likely more ways of reducing the barrier of entry into the "fun" parts of the game that don't require CCP gouging more R/L cash from players they hope to introduce to the game and encourage to stay, yet I suspect the fact they are going with selling SPs for cash demonstrates this is not about helping new players at all but rinsing more money out of people. |
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 18:45:31 -
[5421] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: And patch bringing this will be different from others since game fundamental is going to be changed. So it is not just if someone likes ship, pos, missions, whatever changes. This is the biggest change ever as it is change in CCP`s relations to its customers.
Yeap, it's crucial changing. Like inventing prostetic limbs(remember your sports metaphor about prestige)... Is it right thing to disqualify person from challenge who suffered from loosing limb but now he has prostetic one? Totally wrong analogy since people with prosthetic limbs are not allowed to compete in regular competitions, they have their own. So it is obviously right.
Don ZOLA wrote: That is like saying that in any competition there will be the 1st place for the ones who used doping and separate 1st place for those who did not.
They did it but for people with prosthetic limbs.
Pinky Bear
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
190
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 19:00:45 -
[5422] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: And patch bringing this will be different from others since game fundamental is going to be changed. So it is not just if someone likes ship, pos, missions, whatever changes. This is the biggest change ever as it is change in CCP`s relations to its customers.
Yeap, it's crucial changing. Like inventing prostetic limbs(remember your sports metaphor about prestige)... Is it right thing to disqualify person from challenge who suffered from loosing limb but now he has prostetic one? Totally wrong analogy since people with prosthetic limbs are not allowed to compete in regular competitions, they have their own. So it is obviously right. Don ZOLA wrote: That is like saying that in any competition there will be the 1st place for the ones who used doping and separate 1st place for those who did not.
They did it but for people with prosthetic limbs. So does it humiliate regular applicants?
You are suggesting CCP should have separate server for those who want this new feature and other which speed up their development? Could not agree more :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 19:05:40 -
[5423] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:
You are suggesting CCP should have separate server for those who want this new feature and other which speed up their development? Could not agree more :)
We talking about prestige, right? Just let them to separate regular SP from injected.
CCP Terminus wrote: there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints.
Pinky Bear
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Doddy
Esoteric Operations
928
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 19:08:49 -
[5424] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:This may be a long post - TLDR - The 1st part is remembered from a real conversation edited down but it serves to illustrate the difference between EVE and run-of-the-mill MMOs.
About eve convo - 2015
(me) Still playing SWTOR (TD) No I'm doing Destiny now
(me) When did you swtich (TD) Last month - I started a new character on Saturday - a combat-mech (?) upto level 20 already, you still playing that space ships game
(me) Eve online - Yeah been playing for 2 or 3 years (TD) I saw the youtube link with the 3000 players and the big ships shooting beams at each other looked pretty cool
(me) Yeah that was a big fight a while back the bigest ships are called Titains (TD) Do you fly one?
(me) Crap no - I've only been playing a couple of years You have a lot of skills to learn to fly one of those (TD) Skills?
(me) Yeah - anything you want to do in game requires skills - Miner, Explorer, manufacturing and you can train for lots of different ships - if you want to you can sit in a station never go into space and trade on the market - eve has its own economy (TD) That's cool I could get into being a stock broker - whats it like
(me) I don't really know - The skills are trained in real time - You usually pick ones to train for what you fancy doing at the time - later you pick what you need to get the cool ships or whatever you want the character to be - I started with mining, moved on to exploring now I am working on combat ships - Haven't done market trading yet
What I fear the about eve convo in the Near Future will become
(TD) Still Playing EVE (me) Yeah - for now - I Started a new character on Saturday - a market trader - I've got all the skills up to level V already
There is no pro- buying SP post in this Thread-nought that alleviates this fear
You are the sort of person who spends thousands of dollars on a game character? Though of course its already far more pay to win since you dont need many skills to market trade and having thousands of dollars of plex lets you corner any market you like, so in the field of market manipulation this would have not one jot of difference. You who spent your plex money on sp would be a million miles behind the person who spent it on isk, so you have effectively paye dto lose.
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
17
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 19:34:37 -
[5425] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: CLIP
What I fear the about eve convo in the Near Future will become
(TD) Still Playing EVE (me) Yeah - for now - I Started a new character on Saturday - a market trader - I've got all the skills up to level V already
There is no pro- buying SP post in this Thread-nought that alleviates this fear
You are the sort of person who spends thousands of dollars on a game character? Though of course its already far more pay to win since you dont need many skills to market trade and having thousands of dollars of plex lets you corner any market you like, so in the field of market manipulation this would have not one jot of difference. You who spent your plex money on sp would be a million miles behind the person who spent it on isk, so you have effectively paye dto lose.
Absolute tosh: I'm guessing you're just a troll troll - because instead of trying to write something about how this is not a system that allows you to buy skill points over and above your ability to learn them in game you choose to write a complete pile of unrelated drivel that avoids the point of the post completely.
You would have to be a complete idiot not to see that this changes one of the ways EVE is unique in a sea of MMO mediocrity
Eve has a subscription based financial model - If you want CCP to move to a premium/freemium system how about suggesting it - Then we will see something like "Cartel Coins 2400 for $19.99" "Cartel Coins Use them to buy items and unlocks at the in-game Cartel Market" - "Ideal for power leveling" |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
928
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 19:45:19 -
[5426] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote: many quotes.
yay, not getting to train what they want and still be behind, plus have to worry about being podded, great. Assuming they want to retain control over thier own skill queue why is it such a jump from a player spending 100 mil on a set of +4s to spending 150, 200 or whatever on a tsp? At least the TSP will not promote risk aversion like the implants do. if CCP turned around and said they were going to do it in 100k sp chunks would your opposition suddenly disappear because they would be more affordable? I am going to guess not.
Why would it lead to dissatisfaction? You haven't explained why any normal person would feel this way. Are people going to go, "oh no, if I earn another 50 mil isk i will be able to fly that battleship earlier, how terrible i must quit"? How is that less aspirational than "oh well if i don't bother logging on my skill is still training"? I really don't get what you think the psychology of gamers is. Where does not having rl money come into it where it doesn't already in every other aspect in eve? It is no different from having to save up for that faction BB they are desperate to fly, you think everyone who can't just drop a plex to get what they want quit the game?
Only you are saying they are selling sp with cash. Sp will be sold for cash no more than every other thing in the game that can be sold for isk. What is being sold for cash is the mechanism, and that will be bought by people looking to make isk, not people looking to buy sp. It is exactly the same as plex, the only difference it is not fixed in time. If I bought a tsp with cash right now it would have way less effect than if i had used a plex to sub that account 2 months ago. It will also have less affect than the plex I will apply on that account next month, assuming i remember to set a skill queue. Is it really so important that people should be rewarded for paying ccp on a monthly basis rather than more intermittently?
I don't have an issue with giving new players more sp or adjusting the requirements for skills etc, but why screw over older players? Skills have constant diminishing returns, giving the older players the same sp would do no harm at all. For most ships meaningful skill use is only around 30mil sp. But you are so fixated on total sp numbers you probably don't get that. |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
930
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 19:54:40 -
[5427] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: CLIP
What I fear the about eve convo in the Near Future will become
(TD) Still Playing EVE (me) Yeah - for now - I Started a new character on Saturday - a market trader - I've got all the skills up to level V already
There is no pro- buying SP post in this Thread-nought that alleviates this fear
You are the sort of person who spends thousands of dollars on a game character? Though of course its already far more pay to win since you dont need many skills to market trade and having thousands of dollars of plex lets you corner any market you like, so in the field of market manipulation this would have not one jot of difference. You who spent your plex money on sp would be a million miles behind the person who spent it on isk, so you have effectively paye dto lose. Absolute tosh: I'm guessing you're just a troll troll - because instead of trying to write something about how this is not a system that allows you to buy skill points over and above your ability to learn them in game you choose to write a complete pile of unrelated drivel that avoids the point of the post completely. You would have to be a complete idiot not to see that this changes one of the ways EVE is unique in a sea of MMO mediocrity Eve has a subscription based financial model - If you want CCP to move to a premium/freemium system how about suggesting it - Then we will see something like "Cartel Coins 2400 for $19.99" "Cartel Coins Use them to buy items and unlocks at the in-game Cartel Market" - "Ideal for power leveling"
How do you even come to that conclusion, you just devolve into insults when you don't have any answers? Yo are the one who used a terrible example, ont my fault. If anyone wants to buy an advantage in market training they can already buy it, TSP will make no difference whatsoever.
Eves training system is and always has been associated to subscription, not playing the game. No amount of "power levelling" gets you ahead in game play. All it can do is catch people up on the money other people have put into thier subscription. You seem just to be buthurt that people starting to pay now will be able to catch up with what you already bought. And why shouldn't they?
Why should somebody who has spent $5k dollars in subs over the years have an in game advantage becaus eof how much they spent? isn't that just pay to win? how can you on one hand moan about pay to win and on the other ignore the massive pay to win advantage every single player in game has over anyone starting out or returning to the game after a break? Its like you don't understand the basic concept of eve.
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Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two Reckoning Star Alliance
26
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Posted - 2015.11.05 20:04:36 -
[5428] - Quote
I am not going to find any of the threads where people ask what to do in eve, then get dozens of responses stating skill points don't matter, there is a limit to the amount of sp that is useful for any particular ship.
If skill points don't matter, why does it matter if we can buy them (trough a better venue then the bazzar)? |
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1341
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 20:07:09 -
[5429] - Quote
I have removed two troll posts.
Quote:5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
219
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 20:13:28 -
[5430] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Stalking Mantis wrote:"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 Source You do understand that skilling a character is an investment of money while people buying sp with isk are investing time right?
The reason he's giving for all his arguments is based around how hes twisted this statement,
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
178
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 20:21:17 -
[5431] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Just imagine how this feature will look to a new player who is not familiar with EVE.
It will lock a bit similar to what typical free2play titles are offering. Slow SP progress and you can accumulate currency ingame for which you then can buy ships or invest them in more SP. It will appear as if the slow accumulation of SP is on purpose so you actually HAVE to spend real money to get to your Battleship in an acceptable time, which is obviously the goal for every player poisoned with the expectation of a linear progression from other MMOs.
In other words it will appear as a seriously overpriced free2play paywall in a game that is NOT free2play!
They will just shake their heads about the greed of the developer without ever understanding the background of the system and simply quit.
This is my serious concern and I think this has to be addressed.
Exactly ...(get ready for replies of but it's not F2P completely missing the point that for new players and potential future customers, perception trumps reality)
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Doddy
Esoteric Operations
930
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 20:23:20 -
[5432] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Stalking Mantis wrote:"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 Source You do understand that skilling a character is an investment of money while people buying sp with isk are investing time right? The reason he's giving for all his arguments is based around how hes twisted this statement,
This is the fundamental issue. All the people against TSPs are basically supporting the pay to win Eve has had since it started, mainly because they already paid thier money and don't want other people to have the opportunity to catch up.
Player A doesn't really play Eve any more, but he is rich so he keeps his sub running nayway and logs in now and again to modify his skill queue.
Player B loves Eve and plays it constantly when he can afford the sub, but sadly rl money problems means he can only sub for 3 months in the year.
Player A will finish the year with 4 times the SP that Player B does, despite actually playing the game for far less time, soley because he has given CCP 4 times as much money.
This is pay to win, at least so much as there is any "win" in Eve.
The fact CCP is daring to give people more leeway on when they can actually pay is of course to be attacked by those who are currently enjoying their pay to win advantage and are worried others might now spend money to errode it, even though under this system many of the people catching up with TSPs will need to pay more than 10 times as much rl money to CCP as they paid for thier SP.
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Doddy
Esoteric Operations
930
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 20:25:11 -
[5433] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Just imagine how this feature will look to a new player who is not familiar with EVE.
It will lock a bit similar to what typical free2play titles are offering. Slow SP progress and you can accumulate currency ingame for which you then can buy ships or invest them in more SP. It will appear as if the slow accumulation of SP is on purpose so you actually HAVE to spend real money to get to your Battleship in an acceptable time, which is obviously the goal for every player poisoned with the expectation of a linear progression from other MMOs.
In other words it will appear as a seriously overpriced free2play paywall in a game that is NOT free2play!
They will just shake their heads about the greed of the developer without ever understanding the background of the system and simply quit.
This is my serious concern and I think this has to be addressed. Exactly ...(get ready for replies of but it's not F2P completely missing the point that for new players and potential future customers, perception trumps reality)
So you are saying we shouldn't do it because it exposes the reality? We should just keep being dishonest about eves ptw nature in the hope of tricking in more new players? i mean i guess you are right but I not sure it is very moral ....
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
219
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 20:30:14 -
[5434] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Stalking Mantis wrote:"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 Source You do understand that skilling a character is an investment of money while people buying sp with isk are investing time right? The reason he's giving for all his arguments is based around how hes twisted this statement, This is the fundamental issue. All the people against TSPs are basically supporting the pay to win Eve has had since it started, mainly because they already paid thier money and don't want other people to have the opportunity to catch up. Player A doesn't really play Eve any more, but he is rich so he keeps his sub running nayway and logs in now and again to modify his skill queue. Player B loves Eve and plays it constantly when he can afford the sub, but sadly rl money problems means he can only sub for 3 months in the year. Player A will finish the year with 4 times the SP that Player B does, despite actually playing the game for far less time, soley because he has given CCP 4 times as much money. This is pay to win, at least so much as there is any "win" in Eve. The fact CCP is daring to give people more leeway on when they can actually pay is of course to be attacked by those who are currently enjoying their pay to win advantage and are worried others might now spend money to errode it, even though under this system many of the people catching up with TSPs will need to pay more than 10 times as much rl money to CCP as they paid for thier SP. So with your theory he pays for skillpoints to catch up then when he's done so still can't play because he's spent his only 3 months playtime on catchup and now goes play something else instead !!!
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
178
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 20:30:28 -
[5435] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Portmanteau wrote: many quotes. yay, not getting to train what they want and still be behind, plus have to worry about being podded, great. Assuming they want to retain control over thier own skill queue why is it such a jump from a player spending 100 mil on a set of +4s to spending 150, 200 or whatever on a tsp? At least the TSP will not promote risk aversion like the implants do. if CCP turned around and said they were going to do it in 100k sp chunks would your opposition suddenly disappear because they would be more affordable? I am going to guess not. Why would it lead to dissatisfaction? You haven't explained why any normal person would feel this way. Are people going to go, "oh no, if I earn another 50 mil isk i will be able to fly that battleship earlier, how terrible i must quit"? How is that less aspirational than "oh well if i don't bother logging on my skill is still training"? I really don't get what you think the psychology of gamers is. Where does not having rl money come into it where it doesn't already in every other aspect in eve? It is no different from having to save up for that faction BB they are desperate to fly, you think everyone who can't just drop a plex to get what they want quit the game? Only you are saying they are selling sp with cash. Sp will be sold for cash no more than every other thing in the game that can be sold for isk. What is being sold for cash is the mechanism, and that will be bought by people looking to make isk, not people looking to buy sp. It is exactly the same as plex, the only difference it is not fixed in time. If I bought a tsp with cash right now it would have way less effect than if i had used a plex to sub that account 2 months ago. It will also have less affect than the plex I will apply on that account next month, assuming i remember to set a skill queue. Is it really so important that people should be rewarded for paying ccp on a monthly basis rather than more intermittently? I don't have an issue with giving new players more sp or adjusting the requirements for skills etc, but why screw over older players? Skills have constant diminishing returns, giving the older players the same sp would do no harm at all. For most ships meaningful skill use is only around 30mil sp. But you are so fixated on total sp numbers you probably don't get that.
Simple, have learning implants act like cerebral accelarators and remain after podding, all other implants remain the same, now you have accelerated learning that's scales downwards in an affordable way which TSPs do not and so all income brackets should be able to afford some form of them. It's not 100% perfect but it offers a lot more options than the 2 options of spend a ton of isk(plex) or miss out completely.
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
178
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 20:36:47 -
[5436] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Just imagine how this feature will look to a new player who is not familiar with EVE.
It will lock a bit similar to what typical free2play titles are offering. Slow SP progress and you can accumulate currency ingame for which you then can buy ships or invest them in more SP. It will appear as if the slow accumulation of SP is on purpose so you actually HAVE to spend real money to get to your Battleship in an acceptable time, which is obviously the goal for every player poisoned with the expectation of a linear progression from other MMOs.
In other words it will appear as a seriously overpriced free2play paywall in a game that is NOT free2play!
They will just shake their heads about the greed of the developer without ever understanding the background of the system and simply quit.
This is my serious concern and I think this has to be addressed. Exactly ...(get ready for replies of but it's not F2P completely missing the point that for new players and potential future customers, perception trumps reality) So you are saying we shouldn't do it because it exposes the reality? We should just keep being dishonest about eves ptw nature in the hope of tricking in more new players? i mean i guess you are right but I not sure it is very moral ....
Good grief have you literally any idea why new/potential customer's perceptions are important when marketing your product... handy hint : there won't always be an EvEO poster around to correct potential customer's misconceptions about EvE when they are considering buying their first account. What they think about EvE often matters more than the subtle explanation of the reality. |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
930
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 20:41:38 -
[5437] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Stalking Mantis wrote:"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 Source You do understand that skilling a character is an investment of money while people buying sp with isk are investing time right? The reason he's giving for all his arguments is based around how hes twisted this statement, This is the fundamental issue. All the people against TSPs are basically supporting the pay to win Eve has had since it started, mainly because they already paid thier money and don't want other people to have the opportunity to catch up. Player A doesn't really play Eve any more, but he is rich so he keeps his sub running nayway and logs in now and again to modify his skill queue. Player B loves Eve and plays it constantly when he can afford the sub, but sadly rl money problems means he can only sub for 3 months in the year. Player A will finish the year with 4 times the SP that Player B does, despite actually playing the game for far less time, soley because he has given CCP 4 times as much money. This is pay to win, at least so much as there is any "win" in Eve. The fact CCP is daring to give people more leeway on when they can actually pay is of course to be attacked by those who are currently enjoying their pay to win advantage and are worried others might now spend money to errode it, even though under this system many of the people catching up with TSPs will need to pay more than 10 times as much rl money to CCP as they paid for thier SP. So with your theory he pays for skillpoints to catch up then when he's done so still can't play because he's spent his only 3 months playtime on catchup and now goes play something else instead !!! There is no win in eve, you set yourself goals to reach, each one that you reach takes you on the next journey.
Not really, I mean peoples circumstances change. He might be able to pay now what he could not pay last month, but simply because his cashflow was irregular he is down 1.5 mil sp whatever he does. Or simply 3 months has got him to the stage where he can afford to plex his account and sometimes TSP to regain some of what he lost.
Goals in eve are gameplay related, other than buying a skill book the training system of eve is completely unrelated to game play, it is entirley down to CCP getting $.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
219
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 20:50:41 -
[5438] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Goals in eve are gameplay related, other than buying a skill book the training system of eve is completely unrelated to game play, it is entirley down to CCP getting $. Seriously, unrelated really - Its the skill system that enables everything you do in eve from mining all the way up. Without the skill system you would still be stuck in your rookie ship / frigate.
Your goals are set by the skill system, using evemon or similar you stick what ship you want to fly into it set all secondaries into it then transfer to your training queue. When completed your move on to your next goal - All skill system related. So someone following your advice would still be roaming round in a frigate with a mining lazor stuck to it ....... and we wonder why the pvp is going down the crapper.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
18
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 20:51:01 -
[5439] - Quote
Doddy wrote: How do you even come to that conclusion, you just devolve into insults when you don't have any answers? Yo are the one who used a terrible example, ont my fault. If anyone wants to buy an advantage in market training they can already buy it, TSP will make no difference whatsoever.
- Agreed - TSP will make no difference in the game so there is no need to include it
Quote: Eves training system is and always has been associated to subscription, not playing the game. No amount of "power levelling" gets you ahead in game play. All it can do is catch people up on the money other people have put into thier subscription. You seem just to be buthurt that people starting to pay now will be able to catch up with what you already bought. And why shouldn't they?
- Agreed - EVE is a subscription based game and training is tied to subscription
I hope you can grasp the fact that TSP applies to newbies AND the vets. The players they are trying to catch up can pay to stay ahead - In this case as well
- TSP makes no difference in the game so there is no need to include it
Quote: Why should somebody who has spent $5k dollars in subs over the years have an in game advantage becaus eof how much they spent? isn't that just pay to win? how can you on one hand moan about pay to win and on the other ignore the massive pay to win advantage every single player in game has over anyone starting out or returning to the game after a break? Its like you don't understand the basic concept of eve.
- Again - EVE is a subscription based game and training is tied to subscription:
- Again - This applies to newbies AND the vets alike. The newbies paying to catch up are trying to catch up with players that can pay to stay ahead (Premium financial Model) .
- Again - TSP will make no difference so there is no need to include it
EVE uses a subscription based financial model - How's that's for a basic concept of EVE
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Doddy
Esoteric Operations
930
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 20:57:06 -
[5440] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Doddy wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Just imagine how this feature will look to a new player who is not familiar with EVE.
It will lock a bit similar to what typical free2play titles are offering. Slow SP progress and you can accumulate currency ingame for which you then can buy ships or invest them in more SP. It will appear as if the slow accumulation of SP is on purpose so you actually HAVE to spend real money to get to your Battleship in an acceptable time, which is obviously the goal for every player poisoned with the expectation of a linear progression from other MMOs.
In other words it will appear as a seriously overpriced free2play paywall in a game that is NOT free2play!
They will just shake their heads about the greed of the developer without ever understanding the background of the system and simply quit.
This is my serious concern and I think this has to be addressed. Exactly ...(get ready for replies of but it's not F2P completely missing the point that for new players and potential future customers, perception trumps reality) So you are saying we shouldn't do it because it exposes the reality? We should just keep being dishonest about eves ptw nature in the hope of tricking in more new players? i mean i guess you are right but I not sure it is very moral .... Good grief have you literally any idea why new/potential customer's perceptions are important when marketing your product... handy hint : there won't always be an EvEO poster around to correct potential customer's misconceptions about EvE when they are considering buying their first account. What they think about EvE often matters more than the subtle explanation of the reality.
But in what way would you be correcting them? As it stands any new player is at a disadvantage because other players have poured money into the game. It is not a misconception. How you think adding a mechanism which could allow them to catch up whether with rl or in game currency is in any way more of a deterrent i have no idea.
Some players will think, oh well I am rich so I can catch up, though its not very fair that diminishing returns mean i have to pay much more than all those angry guys on the forums.
Some players will think, well at least there is a way for me to use my in game talents to catch up on all those pay to win angry guys on the forums.
Some players will think, gee I can never catch up with these angry guys who have been pumping money into the game for years since I am neither rich nor have loads of free time to grind in game, but guess what, I couldn't catch up if there was no such mechanism and would have quit anyway, so you are wasting your time.
Then there are still more players who just want to play the game, and don't care about "being behind".
Quite where these still other players who don't care about being way behind all the others who have pumped money into the game for years, but are really put off by the possibility of them regaining some of that loss come from i have no idea. Who are these people? Whoever they are there is no reason to think they outnumber these others types of potential player.
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Doddy
Esoteric Operations
930
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 21:02:29 -
[5441] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Doddy wrote: How do you even come to that conclusion, you just devolve into insults when you don't have any answers? Yo are the one who used a terrible example, ont my fault. If anyone wants to buy an advantage in market training they can already buy it, TSP will make no difference whatsoever.
- Agreed - TSP will make no difference in the game so there is no need to include it Quote: Eves training system is and always has been associated to subscription, not playing the game. No amount of "power levelling" gets you ahead in game play. All it can do is catch people up on the money other people have put into thier subscription. You seem just to be buthurt that people starting to pay now will be able to catch up with what you already bought. And why shouldn't they?
- Agreed - EVE is a subscription based game and training is tied to subscription I hope you can grasp the fact that TSP applies to newbies AND the vets. The players they are trying to catch up can pay to stay ahead - In this case as well - TSP makes no difference in the game so there is no need to include it Quote: Why should somebody who has spent $5k dollars in subs over the years have an in game advantage becaus eof how much they spent? isn't that just pay to win? how can you on one hand moan about pay to win and on the other ignore the massive pay to win advantage every single player in game has over anyone starting out or returning to the game after a break? Its like you don't understand the basic concept of eve.
- Again - EVE is a subscription based game and training is tied to subscription: - Again - This applies to newbies AND the vets alike. The newbies paying to catch up are trying to catch up with players that can pay to stay ahead (Premium financial Model) . - Again - TSP will make no difference so there is no need to include it EVE uses a subscription based financial model - How's that's for a basic concept of EVE
You come out with some really weird statements. TSP will not effect market manipulation so there is no need to include it? Wtf.
Diminishing returns means the new players actaully will catch up with older players up until 80 mil sp. All CCP needs to make it comletely fair all round is a cap at the point of maximum possible sp for someone who started back in 2003. Anything other than that and players are being rewarded for having given CCp more money.
Eve is pretty much the only subscription based game where progression is tied soley to subscription, it is eves biggest and most unfair flaw.
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
18
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 21:13:46 -
[5442] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Doddy wrote: How do you even come to that conclusion, you just devolve into insults when you don't have any answers? Yo are the one who used a terrible example, ont my fault. If anyone wants to buy an advantage in market training they can already buy it, TSP will make no difference whatsoever.
- Agreed - TSP will make no difference in the game so there is no need to include it Quote: Eves training system is and always has been associated to subscription, not playing the game. No amount of "power levelling" gets you ahead in game play. All it can do is catch people up on the money other people have put into thier subscription. You seem just to be buthurt that people starting to pay now will be able to catch up with what you already bought. And why shouldn't they?
- Agreed - EVE is a subscription based game and training is tied to subscription I hope you can grasp the fact that TSP applies to newbies AND the vets. The players they are trying to catch up can pay to stay ahead - In this case as well - TSP makes no difference in the game so there is no need to include it Quote: Why should somebody who has spent $5k dollars in subs over the years have an in game advantage becaus eof how much they spent? isn't that just pay to win? how can you on one hand moan about pay to win and on the other ignore the massive pay to win advantage every single player in game has over anyone starting out or returning to the game after a break? Its like you don't understand the basic concept of eve.
- Again - EVE is a subscription based game and training is tied to subscription: - Again - This applies to newbies AND the vets alike. The newbies paying to catch up are trying to catch up with players that can pay to stay ahead (Premium financial Model) . - Again - TSP will make no difference so there is no need to include it EVE uses a subscription based financial model - How's that's for a basic concept of EVE You come out with some really weird statements. TSP will not effect market manipulation so there is no need to include it? Wtf. I included your quote - nothing about market manipulation there just buying TRAINING - Did you misspell trading?
anyway I was talking about buying SP to quickly create a perfect market trader in days instead of months not manipulating markets
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
219
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 21:15:31 -
[5443] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Doddy wrote: How do you even come to that conclusion, you just devolve into insults when you don't have any answers? Yo are the one who used a terrible example, ont my fault. If anyone wants to buy an advantage in market training they can already buy it, TSP will make no difference whatsoever.
- Agreed - TSP will make no difference in the game so there is no need to include it Quote: Eves training system is and always has been associated to subscription, not playing the game. No amount of "power levelling" gets you ahead in game play. All it can do is catch people up on the money other people have put into thier subscription. You seem just to be buthurt that people starting to pay now will be able to catch up with what you already bought. And why shouldn't they?
- Agreed - EVE is a subscription based game and training is tied to subscription I hope you can grasp the fact that TSP applies to newbies AND the vets. The players they are trying to catch up can pay to stay ahead - In this case as well - TSP makes no difference in the game so there is no need to include it Quote: Why should somebody who has spent $5k dollars in subs over the years have an in game advantage becaus eof how much they spent? isn't that just pay to win? how can you on one hand moan about pay to win and on the other ignore the massive pay to win advantage every single player in game has over anyone starting out or returning to the game after a break? Its like you don't understand the basic concept of eve.
- Again - EVE is a subscription based game and training is tied to subscription: - Again - This applies to newbies AND the vets alike. The newbies paying to catch up are trying to catch up with players that can pay to stay ahead (Premium financial Model) . - Again - TSP will make no difference so there is no need to include it EVE uses a subscription based financial model - How's that's for a basic concept of EVE You come out with some really weird statements. TSP will not effect market manipulation so there is no need to include it? Wtf. Diminishing returns means the new players actaully will catch up with older players up until 80 mil sp. All CCP needs to make it comletely fair all round is a cap at the point of maximum possible sp for someone who started back in 2003. Anything other than that and players are being rewarded for having given CCp more money. Eve is pretty much the only subscription based game where progression is tied soley to subscription, it is eves biggest and most unfair flaw. If you look at it like that then its also the only game where you progress without even lifting a finger to play, all other MMO's you only advance whilst playing so if you can only play 3 months of the year your never going to level a character near cap, is that wrong now also.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
18
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 21:31:32 -
[5444] - Quote
"Eve is pretty much the only subscription based game where progression is tied solely to subscription"
I don't see it as a flaw - I think it is one of EVE's most unique features that makes EVE different from other MMO's
It also avoids spamming to improve experience stats "Spamming" Example - In one MMO I played drinking mushroom brew over and over just because after consuming gallons of the stuff you gain 1xp in the use of potions
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1706
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 21:37:53 -
[5445] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:The hypocrisy of some people here is staggering, if there is no difference between advancing using any current in game / bazaar methods, the end goal is to help all including the new players then its quite simple.
To remove it from internal manipulation from anyone in game.
CCP to sell it for aurum in the store so current people can buy with isk and to be sold on the website where the plex are sold so that anyone with cash or new players that want to advance but have no in game currency. It will still have its depreciation scale.
Anyone can look at it how they like whether it be pay2progress or pay2win. If its done this way there is no downside except its another MT added, it cannot be manipulated at all , its totally accessible to all worry free.
EDIT: To any that say about CCP getting skillpoints from thin air, The mechanism to allow this to be done is from thin air as anything from the NEX store is from thin air - Its not seeded in game cannot be farm for, so by far the lesser of the 2 evils if it cannot be manipulated. I'm confused on your logic here. You seem to suggest that CCP selling the SP directly would prevent manipulation even with it being market tradable, but the manipulation of PLEX on the in game market evidences otherwise.
The first change this actually creates is encouraging those interested in gaining SP to weigh in game isk price vs real currency price, and thus encourages real money expense for the consumer of the SP, where the current system does not. Like the Bazaar the "transfer fee" on the SP is the responsibility of the seller (though the seller may factor that into the sale price).
The second is that it removes any constraints on SP supply, making the doomsday scenarios painted by those not wanting 400mill SP characters to come into existence more likely since the price can't increase due to constrained supply. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
219
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 21:42:29 -
[5446] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:"Eve is pretty much the only subscription based game where progression is tied solely to subscription"
I don't see it as a flaw - I think it is one of EVE's most unique features that makes EVE different from other MMO's
It also avoids spamming to improve experience stats "Spamming" Example - In one MMO I played drinking mushroom brew over and over just because after consuming gallons of the stuff you gain 1xp in the use of potions
People forget thats its a sci fi MMO unique and Niche, You cannot compare it to other MMO's because its so different. If you want orc goblins elves knights ninja's whatever go play those, but dont try to turn something thats unique into yet another clone.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Rocker Will
Rockstar federation
29
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 21:45:21 -
[5447] - Quote
I heard people talking about this in Amar, I thought It was a bad idea but after reading the blog it actually sounds pretty good, |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
219
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 21:46:07 -
[5448] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:The hypocrisy of some people here is staggering, if there is no difference between advancing using any current in game / bazaar methods, the end goal is to help all including the new players then its quite simple.
To remove it from internal manipulation from anyone in game.
CCP to sell it for aurum in the store so current people can buy with isk and to be sold on the website where the plex are sold so that anyone with cash or new players that want to advance but have no in game currency. It will still have its depreciation scale.
Anyone can look at it how they like whether it be pay2progress or pay2win. If its done this way there is no downside except its another MT added, it cannot be manipulated at all , its totally accessible to all worry free.
EDIT: To any that say about CCP getting skillpoints from thin air, The mechanism to allow this to be done is from thin air as anything from the NEX store is from thin air - Its not seeded in game cannot be farm for, so by far the lesser of the 2 evils if it cannot be manipulated. I'm confused on your logic here. You seem to suggest that CCP selling the SP directly would prevent manipulation even with it being market tradable, but the manipulation of PLEX on the in game market evidences otherwise. The first change this actually creates is encouraging those interested in gaining SP to weigh in game isk price vs real currency price, and thus encourages real money expense for the consumer of the SP, where the current system does not. Like the Bazaar the "transfer fee" on the SP is the responsibility of the seller (though the seller may factor that into the sale price). The second is that it removes any constraints on SP supply, making the doomsday scenarios painted by those not wanting 400mill SP characters to come into existence more likely since the price can't increase due to constrained supply. I dont want it introduced ,the way above it removes anyway it can be misused, and when i said CCP to market it but directly to a player its not a marketable commodity. It will still have its depreciation scale.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1706
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 21:59:33 -
[5449] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:I dont want it introduced ,the way above it removes anyway it can be misused, and when i said CCP to market it but directly to a player its not a marketable commodity. It will still have its depreciation scale. What misuse is prevented? If the consumption of SP is unchanged and the SP can be sold on the market and thus manipulated there, what's the gain? Or are you suggesting it can't be market sold? If so do you intend this to require real money?
Do you feel the idea is improved by having unlimited SP? How does this supposed depreciation, which has every new character potentially working against it, differ from the idea as proposed? If it doesn't, how is noting depreciation relevant? |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
932
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 22:09:36 -
[5450] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Goals in eve are gameplay related, other than buying a skill book the training system of eve is completely unrelated to game play, it is entirley down to CCP getting $. Seriously, unrelated really - Its the skill system that enables everything you do in eve from mining all the way up. Without the skill system you would still be stuck in your rookie ship / frigate. Your goals are set by the skill system, using evemon or similar you stick what ship you want to fly into it set all secondaries into it then transfer to your training queue. When completed your move on to your next goal - All skill system related. So someone following your advice would still be roaming round in a frigate with a mining lazor stuck to it ....... and we wonder why the pvp is going down the crapper.
How do you figure that? You cant play without a subscription, you would have to deliberately not train to be in such a situation, why would you do that? What you do has no effect on your skilling however, other than buying skillbooks as i said. Nothing you can do in game will give you skills if you haven't paid your sub. Being better at the game or spending more time actually playing it does not effect your skils, only how much money you have paid CCP.
On the other hand you don't need to actually play the game at all. So long as you click your skill queue and pay your sub you never need to undock. is that really your idea of "playing eve"? |
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
220
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 22:10:54 -
[5451] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:I dont want it introduced ,the way above it removes anyway it can be misused, and when i said CCP to market it but directly to a player its not a marketable commodity. It will still have its depreciation scale. What misuse is prevented? If the consumption of SP is unchanged and the SP can be sold on the market and thus manipulated there, what's the gain? Or are you suggesting it can't be market sold? If so do you intend this to require real money? Do you feel the idea is improved by having unlimited SP? How does this supposed depreciation, which has every new character potentially working against it, differ from the idea as proposed? If it doesn't, how is noting depreciation relevant?
CCP sell direct to a player only - It cannot be traded on the market
0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added
Still using the above. New players get the most benefit from it, but anyone can use them higher level players still only get lower amount ...... that easier for you to follow.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Jared Khanar
73
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 22:12:40 -
[5452] - Quote
Quote: My main is at 79m sp right now. I have invested every sp into specialising this character for the gameplay I have choosen, when I joined eve. But it-¦s boring after all and I-¦d like to experience new areas of the game. I have used SP Transfers to be able to compete with all these vets, but my character has no single sp in skills, that support my new adventures. I will never be able to catch up to all those, active in these areas of the game.
SP trading has been introduced to enable us to compete, so seriously CCP; please remove dimishing returns. They are meaningless and only a artificially barrier in character progression.
It-¦s only forcing us to sub additional accounts for different, specialised characters. It-¦s not good for the new player retention if everyone thinks they must sub xyz accounts play this game.
There-¦s not even a character in the bazaar as I would need one. Let us make use of this way to progress, as it is intended!
This would make no difference after all for the game itself! Would throw loads of money at you, also.
Coming soon... maybe
Economic Services
trading spacepixels
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1706
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 22:16:14 -
[5453] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:I dont want it introduced ,the way above it removes anyway it can be misused, and when i said CCP to market it but directly to a player its not a marketable commodity. It will still have its depreciation scale. What misuse is prevented? If the consumption of SP is unchanged and the SP can be sold on the market and thus manipulated there, what's the gain? Or are you suggesting it can't be market sold? If so do you intend this to require real money? Do you feel the idea is improved by having unlimited SP? How does this supposed depreciation, which has every new character potentially working against it, differ from the idea as proposed? If it doesn't, how is noting depreciation relevant? CCP sell direct to a player only - It cannot be traded on the market 0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added Still using the above. New players get the most benefit from it, but anyone can use them higher level players still only get lower amount ...... that easier for you to follow. So the questions you didn't answer (further clarification where needed is presented):
What misuse is prevented (compared to the proposal in the op)? Do you feel the idea is improved by having unlimited SP? How is noting depreciation relevant (it didn't change)?
And now to add:
What actual benefit over the proposed are you trying to create here? |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
932
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 22:19:48 -
[5454] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:"Eve is pretty much the only subscription based game where progression is tied solely to subscription"
I don't see it as a flaw - I think it is one of EVE's most unique features that makes EVE different from other MMO's
It also avoids spamming to improve experience stats "Spamming" Example - In one MMO I played drinking mushroom brew over and over just because after consuming gallons of the stuff you gain 1xp in the use of potions
Spamming is just bad game design, it encourages grinding of repetitive game play. Training tied to subscription is bad game design in the other direction, it does nothing to promote game play, only paying money to the developer, and is unfair on people who happened to come to the game later than others. Obviously a happy medium would be best, where progression occurs through normal goal driven gameplay, but there is no way eve is going to be retrofitted in that way.
So the only way forward for eve is to make the subscription based system more equitable, and while flawed TSP would do this. A simple SP hard cap would prevent it being exploited. Diminishing returns both in the process and in the way eve skills work mean nobody would ever try to get to the cap anyway, but it would make people feel better if there was one.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
220
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 22:23:27 -
[5455] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:"Eve is pretty much the only subscription based game where progression is tied solely to subscription"
I don't see it as a flaw - I think it is one of EVE's most unique features that makes EVE different from other MMO's
It also avoids spamming to improve experience stats "Spamming" Example - In one MMO I played drinking mushroom brew over and over just because after consuming gallons of the stuff you gain 1xp in the use of potions
Spamming is just bad game design, it encourages grinding of repetitive game play. Training tied to subscription is bad game design in the other direction, it does nothing to promote game play, only paying money to the developer, and is unfair on people who happened to come to the game later than others. Obviously a happy medium would be best, where progression occurs through normal goal driven gameplay, but there is no way eve is going to be retrofitted in that way. So the only way forward for eve is to make the subscription based system more equitable, and while flawed TSP would do this. A simple SP hard cap would prevent it being exploited. Diminishing returns both in the process and in the way eve skills work mean nobody would ever try to get to the cap anyway, but it would make people feel better if there was one. You base all your assumptions of other game designs which really dont apply, if you cannot see the differences i do not understand why you even bother to play eve in the first place as its clearly not a game 1. you understand 2 enjoy
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
932
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 22:25:23 -
[5456] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:I dont want it introduced ,the way above it removes anyway it can be misused, and when i said CCP to market it but directly to a player its not a marketable commodity. It will still have its depreciation scale. What misuse is prevented? If the consumption of SP is unchanged and the SP can be sold on the market and thus manipulated there, what's the gain? Or are you suggesting it can't be market sold? If so do you intend this to require real money? Do you feel the idea is improved by having unlimited SP? How does this supposed depreciation, which has every new character potentially working against it, differ from the idea as proposed? If it doesn't, how is noting depreciation relevant? CCP sell direct to a player only - It cannot be traded on the market 0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added Still using the above. New players get the most benefit from it, but anyone can use them higher level players still only get lower amount ...... that easier for you to follow.
Why is this any better than what is porposed? Surely it being exposed to market forces would be better than CCP dictating price? Also CCP are trying to fix the character respeccing issue at the same time, so are you against that, or do you just think they should put yet another mechanic in for that?
The only difference is that people wouldn't be able to sell thier sp for isk. But why is that an issue? I mean if selling some sp lets them plex for another month surely it is a good thing. They paid to train the sp in the first place after all, surely them being able to sell it in game is fair enough, it is effectively like selling a plex.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
220
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 22:31:26 -
[5457] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:I dont want it introduced ,the way above it removes anyway it can be misused, and when i said CCP to market it but directly to a player its not a marketable commodity. It will still have its depreciation scale. What misuse is prevented? If the consumption of SP is unchanged and the SP can be sold on the market and thus manipulated there, what's the gain? Or are you suggesting it can't be market sold? If so do you intend this to require real money? Do you feel the idea is improved by having unlimited SP? How does this supposed depreciation, which has every new character potentially working against it, differ from the idea as proposed? If it doesn't, how is noting depreciation relevant? CCP sell direct to a player only - It cannot be traded on the market 0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added Still using the above. New players get the most benefit from it, but anyone can use them higher level players still only get lower amount ...... that easier for you to follow. Why is this any better than what is porposed? Surely it being exposed to market forces would be better than CCP dictating price? Also CCP are trying to fix the character respeccing issue at the same time, so are you against that, or do you just think they should put yet another mechanic in for that? The only difference is that people wouldn't be able to sell thier sp for isk. But why is that an issue? I mean if selling some sp lets them plex for another month surely it is a good thing. They paid to train the sp in the first place after all, surely them being able to sell it in game is fair enough, it is effectively like selling a plex. As i previously said, player driven has so many unknown outcomes, this way does away with.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
932
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 22:33:59 -
[5458] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:"Eve is pretty much the only subscription based game where progression is tied solely to subscription"
I don't see it as a flaw - I think it is one of EVE's most unique features that makes EVE different from other MMO's
It also avoids spamming to improve experience stats "Spamming" Example - In one MMO I played drinking mushroom brew over and over just because after consuming gallons of the stuff you gain 1xp in the use of potions
Spamming is just bad game design, it encourages grinding of repetitive game play. Training tied to subscription is bad game design in the other direction, it does nothing to promote game play, only paying money to the developer, and is unfair on people who happened to come to the game later than others. Obviously a happy medium would be best, where progression occurs through normal goal driven gameplay, but there is no way eve is going to be retrofitted in that way. So the only way forward for eve is to make the subscription based system more equitable, and while flawed TSP would do this. A simple SP hard cap would prevent it being exploited. Diminishing returns both in the process and in the way eve skills work mean nobody would ever try to get to the cap anyway, but it would make people feel better if there was one. You base all your assumptions of other game designs which really dont apply, if you cannot see the differences i do not understand why you even bother to play eve in the first place as its clearly not a game 1. you understand 2 enjoy
What assumptions? What doesn't apply? You are just saying nothing with that post. What does the skill training system have to do with enjoyment of the game? How on earth can anyone base enjoyment of the game on how they buy progression? I am one of those people who has paid for the game for 12 years, it is just embarrassing to see all the hypocrisy of my fellow subscribers who pretend they don't gain an advantage through their money. I doubt there are many people in this thread who have more experience or have recieved more enjoyment from eve than I have. I certainly have more undertsanding of the game than the poisonous forum troll sin here. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1706
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 22:42:01 -
[5459] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:As i previously said, player driven has so many unknown outcomes, this way does away with. These outcomes are negative how? And they are worth trading the capacity for end users to use the feature without real money why?
I have to be honest and say this is a very vague and indescript benefit. To the point of not actually being able to be called such as despite the request for a specific way this improves the system or a specific negative it avoids is met with anything but that, just the blind insistence that it is.
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
932
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 22:44:24 -
[5460] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:"Eve is pretty much the only subscription based game where progression is tied solely to subscription"
I don't see it as a flaw - I think it is one of EVE's most unique features that makes EVE different from other MMO's
It also avoids spamming to improve experience stats "Spamming" Example - In one MMO I played drinking mushroom brew over and over just because after consuming gallons of the stuff you gain 1xp in the use of potions
Spamming is just bad game design, it encourages grinding of repetitive game play. Training tied to subscription is bad game design in the other direction, it does nothing to promote game play, only paying money to the developer, and is unfair on people who happened to come to the game later than others. Obviously a happy medium would be best, where progression occurs through normal goal driven gameplay, but there is no way eve is going to be retrofitted in that way. So the only way forward for eve is to make the subscription based system more equitable, and while flawed TSP would do this. A simple SP hard cap would prevent it being exploited. Diminishing returns both in the process and in the way eve skills work mean nobody would ever try to get to the cap anyway, but it would make people feel better if there was one. You base all your assumptions of other game designs which really dont apply, if you cannot see the differences i do not understand why you even bother to play eve in the first place as its clearly not a game 1. you understand 2 enjoy. If its so flawed explain the following Talking about EVE Online, that is still the example of how to do things in the post - WoW era. While CCP thought they were becoming the dinosaur of the industry, and therefore had to implement a cash shop with micro transactions. They realized their mistakes in time ( after their customers reminded them where their loyalty must lie Riots-in-eve-against-microtransactions ). And turned around and got back on track making EVE Online a better game. CCP is being rewarded now, with a PCU ( peak concurrent users ) of over 65.000 and over 500.000 monthly playing subscribers and a continued growth every year since release, now more than 10 years ago. At this moment EVE Online is the second biggest subscription based MMORPG in the west, and the only subscription based MMORPG that is still growing in the west and probably in the world. If you make a game for gamers, with good features, it will sell and people will pay a monthly fee. The new PCU for EVE also means it is now the MMORPG with largest shard ( single game world ) in the world, passing Second Life which has now a PCU of around 63.000 players. It will be still a while before the absolute record will be broken tho ( 88.000 PCU in Second Life a few years ago ). Data compiled aug 2013.
Nice ninja edit.
Seriously, you quote stats from 2013 to pretend Eve is growing? None of those things are still true 2 years later, surprisingly enough. It would be easy to argue that Eve has been on a terrible downward change ever since Burn Jita (the brief upsurge afterwards excepted). What does eve numbes growing for 6 months then collapsing prove?
Did you actually take part in the riots? Because they were based around the fact CCP was ignoring its in space development to create cosmetic microtransaction fodder. It is a massive leap to connect the two when a) CCP has been probably meddling in space too much rather than too little recently (Fozzie Sov) and b) these changes do not take any meaningful development time and are not cosmetic nonsense but instead a useful tool.
|
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 22:49:23 -
[5461] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:"Eve is pretty much the only subscription based game where progression is tied solely to subscription"
I don't see it as a flaw - I think it is one of EVE's most unique features that makes EVE different from other MMO's
It also avoids spamming to improve experience stats "Spamming" Example - In one MMO I played drinking mushroom brew over and over just because after consuming gallons of the stuff you gain 1xp in the use of potions
Spamming is just bad game design, it encourages grinding of repetitive game play. Training tied to subscription is bad game design in the other direction, it does nothing to promote game play, only paying money to the developer, and is unfair on people who happened to come to the game later than others. Obviously a happy medium would be best, where progression occurs through normal goal driven gameplay, but there is no way eve is going to be retrofitted in that way. So the only way forward for eve is to make the subscription based system more equitable, and while flawed TSP would do this. A simple SP hard cap would prevent it being exploited. Diminishing returns both in the process and in the way eve skills work mean nobody would ever try to get to the cap anyway, but it would make people feel better if there was one. You base all your assumptions of other game designs which really dont apply, if you cannot see the differences i do not understand why you even bother to play eve in the first place as its clearly not a game 1. you understand 2 enjoy. If its so flawed explain the following Talking about EVE Online, that is still the example of how to do things in the post - WoW era. While CCP thought they were becoming the dinosaur of the industry, and therefore had to implement a cash shop with micro transactions. They realized their mistakes in time ( after their customers reminded them where their loyalty must lie Riots-in-eve-against-microtransactions ). And turned around and got back on track making EVE Online a better game. CCP is being rewarded now, with a PCU ( peak concurrent users ) of over 65.000 and over 500.000 monthly playing subscribers and a continued growth every year since release, now more than 10 years ago. At this moment EVE Online is the second biggest subscription based MMORPG in the west, and the only subscription based MMORPG that is still growing in the west and probably in the world. If you make a game for gamers, with good features, it will sell and people will pay a monthly fee. The new PCU for EVE also means it is now the MMORPG with largest shard ( single game world ) in the world, passing Second Life which has now a PCU of around 63.000 players. It will be still a while before the absolute record will be broken tho ( 88.000 PCU in Second Life a few years ago ). Data compiled aug 2013. Are you Droring now? Is it contagious?
Pinky Bear
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
932
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 22:50:06 -
[5462] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:
If you look at it like that then its also the only game where you progress without even lifting a finger to play, all other MMO's you only advance whilst playing so if you can only play 3 months of the year your never going to level a character near cap, is that wrong now also.
Of course it is... Play those other MMOS and you lose nothing compared to players who are not playing. In eve you lose out to players who are not playing, so long as they pay the man. Its a rich mans world apparently.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
221
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 22:52:14 -
[5463] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:"Eve is pretty much the only subscription based game where progression is tied solely to subscription"
I don't see it as a flaw - I think it is one of EVE's most unique features that makes EVE different from other MMO's
It also avoids spamming to improve experience stats "Spamming" Example - In one MMO I played drinking mushroom brew over and over just because after consuming gallons of the stuff you gain 1xp in the use of potions
Spamming is just bad game design, it encourages grinding of repetitive game play. Training tied to subscription is bad game design in the other direction, it does nothing to promote game play, only paying money to the developer, and is unfair on people who happened to come to the game later than others. Obviously a happy medium would be best, where progression occurs through normal goal driven gameplay, but there is no way eve is going to be retrofitted in that way. So the only way forward for eve is to make the subscription based system more equitable, and while flawed TSP would do this. A simple SP hard cap would prevent it being exploited. Diminishing returns both in the process and in the way eve skills work mean nobody would ever try to get to the cap anyway, but it would make people feel better if there was one. You base all your assumptions of other game designs which really dont apply, if you cannot see the differences i do not understand why you even bother to play eve in the first place as its clearly not a game 1. you understand 2 enjoy What assumptions? What doesn't apply? You are just saying nothing with that post. What does the skill training system have to do with enjoyment of the game? How on earth can anyone base enjoyment of the game on how they buy progression? I am one of those people who has paid for the game for 12 years, it is just embarrassing to see all the hypocrisy of my fellow subscribers who pretend they don't gain an advantage through their money. I doubt there are many people in this thread who have more experience or have recieved more enjoyment from eve than I have. I certainly have more undertsanding of the game than the poisonous forum troll sin here. Ive never looked at playing the game for the past 10 years as a monetary investment like you, ive played to enjoy myself, not grinding to play either. im not locked to any illusion that the skillpoint system has held me back in anyway quite the opposite actually as for a good 4 years was spent switching between eve and wow. I dont see i have an advantage through money but my time and effort. I couldnt care less if you'd been playing a week or from beta. everything you say is about money ...... i look at what i have achieved through the time ive spent in game the friends ive made some from 10 years ago, that is priceless. Explain how you can balance a game that is driven by time investment not money, If so many things have been wrong from launch what kept people joining it ever increasing in popularity until 18 months / 2 years ago ??
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
178
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 23:02:38 -
[5464] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Stalking Mantis wrote:"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 Source You do understand that skilling a character is an investment of money while people buying sp with isk are investing time right? The reason he's giving for all his arguments is based around how hes twisted this statement, This is the fundamental issue. All the people against TSPs are basically supporting the pay to win Eve has had since it started, mainly because they already paid thier money and don't want other people to have the opportunity to catch up.
Cobblers. I solo pvp in t1 frigates with no links and very cheap implants. A character with a few months proper training could be on an even playing field with me and could have an advantage over me if they dropped cash on a links char. Stop making convenient and untrue generalizations about the motivations of those who disagree with you. |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
932
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 23:05:57 -
[5465] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Stalking Mantis wrote:"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 Source You do understand that skilling a character is an investment of money while people buying sp with isk are investing time right? The reason he's giving for all his arguments is based around how hes twisted this statement, This is the fundamental issue. All the people against TSPs are basically supporting the pay to win Eve has had since it started, mainly because they already paid thier money and don't want other people to have the opportunity to catch up. Cobblers. I solo pvp in t1 frigates with no links and very cheap implants. A character with a few months proper training could be on an even playing field with me and could have an advantage over me if they dropped cash on a links char. Stop making convenient and untrue generalizations about the motivations of those who disagree with you.
You don't have to intend it for it to be true. Maybe you have the best intentions in the world. Doesn't alter the facts. Even if you are not supporting it for you you are supporting it for someone.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 23:08:30 -
[5466] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Stop making convenient and untrue generalizations about the motivations of those who disagree with you. It's new fashion. Ask Levi about it.
Pinky Bear
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
932
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 23:13:00 -
[5467] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:"Eve is pretty much the only subscription based game where progression is tied solely to subscription"
I don't see it as a flaw - I think it is one of EVE's most unique features that makes EVE different from other MMO's
It also avoids spamming to improve experience stats "Spamming" Example - In one MMO I played drinking mushroom brew over and over just because after consuming gallons of the stuff you gain 1xp in the use of potions
Spamming is just bad game design, it encourages grinding of repetitive game play. Training tied to subscription is bad game design in the other direction, it does nothing to promote game play, only paying money to the developer, and is unfair on people who happened to come to the game later than others. Obviously a happy medium would be best, where progression occurs through normal goal driven gameplay, but there is no way eve is going to be retrofitted in that way. So the only way forward for eve is to make the subscription based system more equitable, and while flawed TSP would do this. A simple SP hard cap would prevent it being exploited. Diminishing returns both in the process and in the way eve skills work mean nobody would ever try to get to the cap anyway, but it would make people feel better if there was one. You base all your assumptions of other game designs which really dont apply, if you cannot see the differences i do not understand why you even bother to play eve in the first place as its clearly not a game 1. you understand 2 enjoy What assumptions? What doesn't apply? You are just saying nothing with that post. What does the skill training system have to do with enjoyment of the game? How on earth can anyone base enjoyment of the game on how they buy progression? I am one of those people who has paid for the game for 12 years, it is just embarrassing to see all the hypocrisy of my fellow subscribers who pretend they don't gain an advantage through their money. I doubt there are many people in this thread who have more experience or have recieved more enjoyment from eve than I have. I certainly have more undertsanding of the game than the poisonous forum troll sin here. Ive never looked at playing the game for the past 10 years as a monetary investment like you, ive played to enjoy myself, not grinding to play either. im not locked to any illusion that the skillpoint system has held me back in anyway quite the opposite actually as for a good 4 years was spent switching between eve and wow. I dont see i have an advantage through money but my time and effort. I couldnt care less if you'd been playing a week or from beta. everything you say is about money ...... i look at what i have achieved through the time ive spent in game the friends ive made some from 10 years ago, that is priceless. Explain how you can balance a game that is driven by time investment not money, If so many things have been wrong from launch what kept people joining it ever increasing in popularity until 18 months / 2 years ago ??
So why are you so keen to defend peoples investment? If you don't care you shouldn't be here, it wouldn't matter to you. Maybe you are lying to yourself?
Eve has plenty to it beyond the skill progression system, why are you so fixated on sp = gameplay, its nonsense.
Your time and effort has not gained you any sp, so what are you on about really? How surprising that you don't see your money having given you an advantage ..... |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
221
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 23:13:21 -
[5468] - Quote
Doddy wrote:You don't have to intend it for it to be true. Maybe you have the best intentions in the world. Doesn't alter the facts. Even if you are not supporting it for you you are supporting it for someone.
You can be fleet ready now in a fully fitted T3 destroyer T2 fitted in a month, Thats the free month before they actually start their subbed month.going back even five years ago you had no chance of being close to that, more like 3 to 4 months how exactly are they in anyway being held back apart from knowledge and being able to open there mouths and either joining a training corp or finding a corp that will train them ??
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
221
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 23:15:36 -
[5469] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Stop making convenient and untrue generalizations about the motivations of those who disagree with you. It's new fashion. Ask Levi about it. The best thing you could do is go forth and multiply
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
932
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 23:19:12 -
[5470] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:You don't have to intend it for it to be true. Maybe you have the best intentions in the world. Doesn't alter the facts. Even if you are not supporting it for you you are supporting it for someone.
You can be fleet ready now in a fully fitted T3 destroyer T2 fitted in a month, Thats the free month before they actually start their subbed month.going back even five years ago you had no chance of being close to that, more like 3 to 4 months how exactly are they in anyway being held back apart from knowledge and being able to open there mouths and either joining a training corp or finding a corp that will train them ??
That is the whole point ffs. If it doesn't matter, why is protecting peoples bought sp advantage so important to you? is it just spite? |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1706
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 23:19:40 -
[5471] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Your time and effort has not gained you any sp, so what are you on about really? How surprising that you don't see your money having given you an advantage ..... My 30 days of time give me exactly 2700 x 24 x 31 = 2.08m sp's to be precise Nitpicking: How did your 30 days time give you 31 days of SP (per your math)? |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
932
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 23:21:14 -
[5472] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Your time and effort has not gained you any sp, so what are you on about really? How surprising that you don't see your money having given you an advantage ..... My 30 days of time give me exactly 2700 x 24 x 31 = 2.08m sp's to be precise
2.08m sp more than the next man.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
221
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 23:23:53 -
[5473] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Your time and effort has not gained you any sp, so what are you on about really? How surprising that you don't see your money having given you an advantage ..... My 30 days of time give me exactly 2700 x 24 x 31 = 2.08m sp's to be precise Nitpicking: How did your 30 days time give you 31 days of SP (per your math)? Cause im tired lol i got a freebie okay 1.944 m
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
221
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 23:28:43 -
[5474] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:You don't have to intend it for it to be true. Maybe you have the best intentions in the world. Doesn't alter the facts. Even if you are not supporting it for you you are supporting it for someone.
You can be fleet ready now in a fully fitted T3 destroyer T2 fitted in a month, Thats the free month before they actually start their subbed month.going back even five years ago you had no chance of being close to that, more like 3 to 4 months how exactly are they in anyway being held back apart from knowledge and being able to open there mouths and either joining a training corp or finding a corp that will train them ?? That is the whole point ffs. If it doesn't matter, why is protecting peoples bought sp advantage so important to you? is it just spite? The same reason i asked you, for what reason is there a need for catchup. why do you need to catch a 12 year old character up when you can be very effective within 1 month.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
933
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 23:30:25 -
[5475] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:You don't have to intend it for it to be true. Maybe you have the best intentions in the world. Doesn't alter the facts. Even if you are not supporting it for you you are supporting it for someone.
You can be fleet ready now in a fully fitted T3 destroyer T2 fitted in a month, Thats the free month before they actually start their subbed month.going back even five years ago you had no chance of being close to that, more like 3 to 4 months how exactly are they in anyway being held back apart from knowledge and being able to open there mouths and either joining a training corp or finding a corp that will train them ?? That is the whole point ffs. If it doesn't matter, why is protecting peoples bought sp advantage so important to you? is it just spite? The same reason i asked you, for what reason is there a need for catchup. why do you need to catch a 12 year old character up when you can be very effective within 1 month.
I don't, i just don't see why people shouldn't be ale to if they want to. Why should one player be able to spend money on sp and not the other just because he got to the game later, or couldn't stay subbed?
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
221
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 23:38:23 -
[5476] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:You don't have to intend it for it to be true. Maybe you have the best intentions in the world. Doesn't alter the facts. Even if you are not supporting it for you you are supporting it for someone.
You can be fleet ready now in a fully fitted T3 destroyer T2 fitted in a month, Thats the free month before they actually start their subbed month.going back even five years ago you had no chance of being close to that, more like 3 to 4 months how exactly are they in anyway being held back apart from knowledge and being able to open there mouths and either joining a training corp or finding a corp that will train them ?? That is the whole point ffs. If it doesn't matter, why is protecting peoples bought sp advantage so important to you? is it just spite? The same reason i asked you, for what reason is there a need for catchup. why do you need to catch a 12 year old character up when you can be very effective within 1 month. I don't, i just don't see why people shouldn't be ale to if they want to. Why should one player be able to spend money on sp and not the other just because he got to the game later, or couldn't stay subbed? Its like a lvl1 character in wow asking why he cant be instant 100 because i couldnt be arsed to try it until now, Its an impossible ask to try and balance something that already has over a decade of history.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
933
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 23:41:47 -
[5477] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: Its like a lvl1 character in wow asking why he cant be instant 100 because i couldnt be arsed to try it until now, Its an impossible ask to try and balance something that already has over a decade of history.
That is nonsense, progression in wow is based on"time and effort" as you put it. Progression in eve is based on number of subs paid (directly or indirectly through plex). What balance is involved? None whatsoever. And a 5 million sp eve char is not the same as a level 100 wow char so why even compare the two? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
221
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 23:42:24 -
[5478] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:You don't have to intend it for it to be true. Maybe you have the best intentions in the world. Doesn't alter the facts. Even if you are not supporting it for you you are supporting it for someone.
You can be fleet ready now in a fully fitted T3 destroyer T2 fitted in a month, Thats the free month before they actually start their subbed month.going back even five years ago you had no chance of being close to that, more like 3 to 4 months how exactly are they in anyway being held back apart from knowledge and being able to open there mouths and either joining a training corp or finding a corp that will train them ?? That is the whole point ffs. If it doesn't matter, why is protecting peoples bought sp advantage so important to you? is it just spite? The same reason i asked you, for what reason is there a need for catchup. why do you need to catch a 12 year old character up when you can be very effective within 1 month. I don't, i just don't see why people shouldn't be ale to if they want to. Why should one player be able to spend money on sp and not the other just because he got to the game later, or couldn't stay subbed? Why shouldn't somebody be able to give their friend new to the game 4.5 mil of their sp so they could fly in fleet with them straight away rather than waiting that month you talk of? I dont have a problem with them giving a new account 1st slot toon 6 to 8 mill sp's to play with, a decent character creation with templates so theyre built properly from the off, same with attribs removed and everything being increased, but selling of disected players is just wrong
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 23:42:44 -
[5479] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:You don't have to intend it for it to be true. Maybe you have the best intentions in the world. Doesn't alter the facts. Even if you are not supporting it for you you are supporting it for someone.
You can be fleet ready now in a fully fitted T3 destroyer T2 fitted in a month, Thats the free month before they actually start their subbed month.going back even five years ago you had no chance of being close to that, more like 3 to 4 months how exactly are they in anyway being held back apart from knowledge and being able to open there mouths and either joining a training corp or finding a corp that will train them ?? That is the whole point ffs. If it doesn't matter, why is protecting peoples bought sp advantage so important to you? is it just spite? The same reason i asked you, for what reason is there a need for catchup. why do you need to catch a 12 year old character up when you can be very effective within 1 month. One beard joke: Space tomato vet blowing up newbie tomato and saying "Ketchup"
Pinky Bear
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
934
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 23:50:16 -
[5480] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: I dont have a problem with them giving a new account 1st slot toon 6 to 8 mill sp's to play with, a decent character creation with templates so theyre built properly from the off, same with attribs removed and everything being increased, but selling of disected players is just wrong
Why is it "just wrong"? I mean its very (very) in universe, it helps people out, what is the issue? A few sensible caps put in place by ccp and nobody will notice, some people will get rid of unused sp, some people with train a little faster, some people will trade rl money for isk in a slightly different way. Really what is the big deal?
|
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
221
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 23:54:46 -
[5481] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: I dont have a problem with them giving a new account 1st slot toon 6 to 8 mill sp's to play with, a decent character creation with templates so theyre built properly from the off, same with attribs removed and everything being increased, but selling of disected players is just wrong
Why is it "just wrong"? I mean its very (very) in universe, it helps people out, what is the issue? A few sensible caps put in place by ccp and nobody will notice, some people will get rid of unused sp, some people with train a little faster, some people will trade rl money for isk in a slightly different way. Really what is the big deal? This is my last one tonight, go back to time and effort for sense of acheivement, reward = longevity instant gratification = short life span.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 23:58:41 -
[5482] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: go back to time
How far?
Pinky Bear
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
934
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 00:09:44 -
[5483] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: I dont have a problem with them giving a new account 1st slot toon 6 to 8 mill sp's to play with, a decent character creation with templates so theyre built properly from the off, same with attribs removed and everything being increased, but selling of disected players is just wrong
Why is it "just wrong"? I mean its very (very) in universe, it helps people out, what is the issue? A few sensible caps put in place by ccp and nobody will notice, some people will get rid of unused sp, some people with train a little faster, some people will trade rl money for isk in a slightly different way. Really what is the big deal? This is my last one tonight, go back to time and effort for sense of acheivement, reward = longevity instant gratification = short life span.
But no time and effort goes into gaining sp in eve, and that is the only thing being effected. Unless you are seriously OCD with the training queue you spend a few minutes a year gaining sp in eve, the rest is happening without you. As for effort the only effort involved is any earned isk you spend on implants or skillbooks, both of which can currently be bought for rl cash via plex already, TSP would be no different than those.
And who plays eve for the acheivement of learning a skill anyway? I have never seen a skill notification pop and think "ah, thats me done enough for tonight, didn't i do well earning that skill. I will need to come back tomorrow and play some more and earn myself another skill".
Goodnight
|
Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two Reckoning Star Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 00:10:32 -
[5484] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: go back to time
How far?
misquoted
He meant go back to a gameplay where time and effort bring a reward.
I am not sure what the effort is in waiting for skill-points to generate, but that's what he was talking about.
To say that that skill packs are instant gratification is really inaccurate. EvE players are not learning skills just so they can say they have 'xxx' amount of points, they want to fly ships and use them in space against other objects controlled by player/NPC. Gratification comes from succeeding in those activities, have nothing to do with skill point generation. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 00:12:47 -
[5485] - Quote
Sasha Sen wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: go back to time
How far? misquoted He meant go back to a gameplay where time and effort bring a reward. I am not sure what the effort is in waiting for skill-points to generate, but that's what he was talking about. To say that that skill packs are instant gratification is really inaccurate. EvE players are not learning skills just so they can say they have 'xxx' amount of points, they want to fly ships and use them in space against other objects controlled by player/NPC. Gratification comes from succeeding in those activities, have nothing to do with skill point generation. Don't worry I'm just a worst troll on eve-o =)
Pinky Bear
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
178
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 00:28:17 -
[5486] - Quote
Doddy wrote:
You don't have to intend it for it to be true. Maybe you have the best intentions in the world. Doesn't alter the facts. Even if you are not supporting it for you you are supporting it for someone.
Give it a rest pal. Painting everyone who disagrees with your opinion as some sort of 'p2w collaborator' is cheap and can just as cheaply turned around to suit the opposite argument. Everyone who wants tsps just wants to exploit it for their own gain and doesn't care about new players at all. These banal kind of arguments are a waste of everybody's time.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 00:53:34 -
[5487] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Doddy wrote:
You don't have to intend it for it to be true. Maybe you have the best intentions in the world. Doesn't alter the facts. Even if you are not supporting it for you you are supporting it for someone.
Give it a rest pal. Painting everyone who disagrees with your opinion as some sort of 'p2w collaborator' is cheap and can just as cheaply turned around to suit the opposite argument. Everyone who wants tsps just wants to exploit it for their own gain and doesn't care about new players at all. These banal kind of arguments are a waste of everybody's time. OK. What is your personal reason against this idea? How it will hurt you? I don't trust someone who covering up personal reason by some sort of kindness and carrying for noobs. Especially if he is vet.
Pinky Bear
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
178
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 01:43:57 -
[5488] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Doddy wrote:
You don't have to intend it for it to be true. Maybe you have the best intentions in the world. Doesn't alter the facts. Even if you are not supporting it for you you are supporting it for someone.
Give it a rest pal. Painting everyone who disagrees with your opinion as some sort of 'p2w collaborator' is cheap and can just as cheaply turned around to suit the opposite argument. Everyone who wants tsps just wants to exploit it for their own gain and doesn't care about new players at all. These banal kind of arguments are a waste of everybody's time. OK. What is your personal reason against this idea? How it will hurt you?
It won't.
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
18
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 03:55:12 -
[5489] - Quote
0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added
If you think of this as how much ISK a character can afford to pay -- It looks like it assumes that a bitterVet only earns 10x times a newbie can earn - 8 x more than a 50mil SP player
No wonder TSP is being defended with so much fervor - Given the real earnings you can make with a 80mill ++ toon they can afford to consume these TSP like candy
Its way off - maybe it should be > 80 million skillpoints = 5,000 unallocated skillpoints added |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1706
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 04:36:40 -
[5490] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added
If you think of this as how much ISK a character can afford to pay -- It looks like it assumes that a bitterVet only earns 10x times a newbie can earn - 8 x more than a 50mil SP player
No wonder TSP is being defended with so much fervor - Given the real earnings you can make with a 80mill ++ toon they can afford to consume these TSP like candy
Its way off - maybe it should be > 80 million skillpoints = 5,000 unallocated skillpoints added A well focused 50mill SP will match 80mill SP in earning potential (either is more than enough to do any isk earning activity). I certainly am not making 8x what I was then, I doubt most people are that didn't find something entirely different and more lucrative to do, likely largely decoupled from their prior SP investment as well.
That said I think it should actually cap at some point to where no further SP can be added. |
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
18
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 05:30:49 -
[5491] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added
If you think of this as how much ISK a character can afford to pay -- It looks like it assumes that a bitterVet only earns 10x times a newbie can earn - 8 x more than a 50mil SP player
No wonder TSP is being defended with so much fervor - Given the real earnings you can make with a 80mill ++ toon they can afford to consume these TSP like candy
Its way off - maybe it should be > 80 million skillpoints = 5,000 unallocated skillpoints added A well focused 50mill SP will match 80mill SP in earning potential (either is more than enough to do any isk earning activity). I certainly am not making 8x what I was then, I doubt most people are that didn't find something entirely different and more lucrative to do, likely largely decoupled from their prior SP investment as well. That said I think it should actually cap at some point to where no further SP can be added.
Probably an exaggeration on my part with the 5k skill point -
but its a lot easier to make a plex worth of ISK with an 80 mill toon than a 25 mill - I like the cap for adding more SP or maybe a time limit for how many you can plugin over a period of time - a cool down timer for TSP implants
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1706
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 05:40:37 -
[5492] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Probably an exaggeration on my part with the 5k skill point -
but its a lot easier to make a plex worth of ISK with an 80 mill toon than a 25 mill - I like the cap for adding more SP or maybe a time limit for how many you can plugin over a period of time - a cool down timer for TSP implants I'd say challenge accepted, as building an incursion character with 25mill SP is simple enough, but since that's a year of training to put into proof I'll not be doing that.
Also someone would still probably put those earnings to shame with a brand new market toon anyways. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
18
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 06:24:25 -
[5493] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Probably an exaggeration on my part with the 5k skill point -
but its a lot easier to make a plex worth of ISK with an 80 mill toon than a 25 mill - I like the cap for adding more SP or maybe a time limit for how many you can plugin over a period of time - a cool down timer for TSP implants I'd say challenge accepted, as building an incursion character with 25mill SP is simple enough, but since that's a year of training to put into proof I'll not be doing that. Also someone would still probably put those earnings to shame with a brand new market toon anyways.
Soon you will be able throw in a few plexes - and - wow an instant incursion toon |
Verminah Helbain
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 07:38:36 -
[5494] - Quote
ISD Decoy wrote:I have removed some troll replies and those quoting them. Quote:5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. Shouldnt you be removing the OP as well if your removing troll posts in here? |
Maebure 420
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 08:15:20 -
[5495] - Quote
Holy bob the amount of bitter-vet salt in this thread is unbelievable. I for one support his new paradigm CCP, I don't think this is a bad idea at all. Maybe re-think the diminishing returns a bit. Overall good job. |
Verminah Helbain
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 08:30:11 -
[5496] - Quote
Maebure 420 wrote:Holy bob the amount of bitter-vet salt in this thread is unbelievable. I for one support his new paradigm CCP, I don't think this is a bad idea at all. Maybe re-think the diminishing returns a bit. Overall good job. Yeah, if they are 5x as hard i might mellow a bit in this regard. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
221
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 09:01:53 -
[5497] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: I dont have a problem with them giving a new account 1st slot toon 6 to 8 mill sp's to play with, a decent character creation with templates so theyre built properly from the off, same with attribs removed and everything being increased, but selling of disected players is just wrong
Why is it "just wrong"? I mean its very (very) in universe, it helps people out, what is the issue? A few sensible caps put in place by ccp and nobody will notice, some people will get rid of unused sp, some people with train a little faster, some people will trade rl money for isk in a slightly different way. Really what is the big deal? This is my last one tonight, go back to time and effort for sense of acheivement, reward = longevity instant gratification = short life span. But no time and effort goes into gaining sp in eve, and that is the only thing being effected. Unless you are seriously OCD with the training queue you spend a few minutes a year gaining sp in eve, the rest is happening without you. As for effort the only effort involved is any earned isk you spend on implants or skillbooks, both of which can currently be bought for rl cash via plex already, TSP would be no different than those. And who plays eve for the acheivement of learning a skill anyway? I have never seen a skill notification pop and think "ah, thats me done enough for tonight, didn't i do well earning that skill. I will need to come back tomorrow and play some more and earn myself another skill". Goodnight Twisting things to suit your point serves no purpose. What has come to light over this is you view everything you do in EvE as a money transaction like linking skill points to your subs, To me i pay my subs to be able to play for the next 30 days ( Just a time frame not its cost me 33p to play today) Maybe this is the mindset of people who used to GTC and now plex there accounts instead of just enjoying the game, the grind instills an overwhelming factor for things to be monetized and not enjoyed as much.
It doesn't matter if your starting a fresh character or advancing in the game i use the skill system to set my goals. If i want one toon flying marauders everything will get set in motion i don't self flagellate over each skill that completes but when you can actually sit in the hull with it fully fitted to your specification you've achieved your goal. The reward come from kicking ass in said new fitted ship. I just view my actions by time, the more i invest the more i gain. Very sad when even in a virtual world you still reduce your actions to a real life concept.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
192
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 10:52:04 -
[5498] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:
You are suggesting CCP should have separate server for those who want this new feature and other which speed up their development? Could not agree more :)
We talking about prestige, right? Just let them to separate regular SP from injected one. CCP Terminus wrote: there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints.
Prestige is just one of concerns. And about solution for it - I prefer idea of separate servers. Or injected SP not being counted in total SP. :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 12:23:34 -
[5499] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:
You are suggesting CCP should have separate server for those who want this new feature and other which speed up their development? Could not agree more :)
We talking about prestige, right? Just let them to separate regular SP from injected one. CCP Terminus wrote: there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints.
Prestige is just one of concerns. And about solution for it - I prefer idea of separate servers. Or injected SP not being counted in total SP. :) You beat me. I thought that I'm troll here =)... Wait. I have better idea. How about forbid TSP for those who won't to use them. And let other use.
Pinky Bear
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 12:41:02 -
[5500] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Probably an exaggeration on my part with the 5k skill point -
but its a lot easier to make a plex worth of ISK with an 80 mill toon than a 25 mill - I like the cap for adding more SP or maybe a time limit for how many you can plugin over a period of time - a cool down timer for TSP implants I'd say challenge accepted, as building an incursion character with 25mill SP is simple enough, but since that's a year of training to put into proof I'll not be doing that. Also someone would still probably put those earnings to shame with a brand new market toon anyways. Soon you will be able throw in a few plexes - and - wow an instant incursion toon Did you thought about where plexes go? Thanks to this man because he paid for someone who can't afford PLEX with rl money.
Pinky Bear
|
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
232
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 14:25:08 -
[5501] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: Its like a lvl1 character in wow asking why he cant be instant 100 because i couldnt be arsed to try it until now, Its an impossible ask to try and balance something that already has over a decade of history.
That is nonsense, progression in wow is based on"time and effort" as you put it. Progression in eve is based on number of subs paid (directly or indirectly through plex). What balance is involved? None whatsoever. And a 5 million sp eve char is not the same as a level 100 wow char so why even compare the two?
You still pay a subcription to wow, unless you've found a blizzard server thats now f2p, Both game models are sub based but with EvE you still skill up if you interact or not wow you dont - So a skillpoint system has its benefits. I didnt compare a lvl100 character to a 5m skillpoint character. There is nothing direct or indirect with my subscription either i pay by card as previously pointed out - i dont grind or expect to play for free. I come to have a fun and a laugh not at the expense of others.
So you do not agree with the following statement then :
Basically you put together a combination of ship/modules/rigs/implants and most importantly your skills to create a fit that does what you want in your style.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 14:39:17 -
[5502] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:I come to have a fun and a laugh
Yeah, I see how you get fun by not playing.
Pinky Bear
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
193
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 15:54:13 -
[5503] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:
You are suggesting CCP should have separate server for those who want this new feature and other which speed up their development? Could not agree more :)
We talking about prestige, right? Just let them to separate regular SP from injected one. CCP Terminus wrote: there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints.
Prestige is just one of concerns. And about solution for it - I prefer idea of separate servers. Or injected SP not being counted in total SP. :) You beat me. I thought that I'm biggest troll here =)... Wait. I have better idea. How about forbid TSP for those who against this change. And let other to use.
Difference is that I am not trolling, just giving more in depth to your suggestions.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 16:05:49 -
[5504] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: Difference is that I am not trolling, just giving more in depth to your suggestions.
Yeap, me too. I'm doing it all the time.
Pinky Bear
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
935
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 17:08:53 -
[5505] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: I dont have a problem with them giving a new account 1st slot toon 6 to 8 mill sp's to play with, a decent character creation with templates so theyre built properly from the off, same with attribs removed and everything being increased, but selling of disected players is just wrong
Why is it "just wrong"? I mean its very (very) in universe, it helps people out, what is the issue? A few sensible caps put in place by ccp and nobody will notice, some people will get rid of unused sp, some people with train a little faster, some people will trade rl money for isk in a slightly different way. Really what is the big deal? This is my last one tonight, go back to time and effort for sense of acheivement, reward = longevity instant gratification = short life span. But no time and effort goes into gaining sp in eve, and that is the only thing being effected. Unless you are seriously OCD with the training queue you spend a few minutes a year gaining sp in eve, the rest is happening without you. As for effort the only effort involved is any earned isk you spend on implants or skillbooks, both of which can currently be bought for rl cash via plex already, TSP would be no different than those. And who plays eve for the acheivement of learning a skill anyway? I have never seen a skill notification pop and think "ah, thats me done enough for tonight, didn't i do well earning that skill. I will need to come back tomorrow and play some more and earn myself another skill". Goodnight Twisting things to suit your point serves no purpose. What has come to light over this is you view everything you do in EvE as a money transaction like linking skill points to your subs, To me i pay my subs to be able to play for the next 30 days ( Just a time frame not its cost me 33p to play today) Maybe this is the mindset of people who used to GTC and now plex there accounts instead of just enjoying the game, the grind instills an overwhelming factor for things to be monetized and not enjoyed as much. It doesn't matter if your starting a fresh character or advancing in the game i use the skill system to set my goals. If i want one toon flying marauders everything will get set in motion i don't self flagellate over each skill that completes but when you can actually sit in the hull with it fully fitted to your specification you've achieved your goal. The reward come from kicking ass in said new fitted ship. I just view my actions by time, the more i invest the more i gain. Very sad when even in a virtual world you still reduce your actions to a real life concept.
There is no twisting here man, you are just refusing to accept the fundamental basis of eves training system. However well or badly you play, however much time you spend playing has no effect whatsoever on your skill training. Skill training is entirely independent of game play however much you seem determined to pretend otherwise. The whole point of the game is to invest time and achieve goals, its great you continue to do that. But why do you feel the need to pretend that is related to the training of skills? That is what is sad, that you feel the need to connect your in game enjoyment to the sp you have bought (whether directly or indirectly), its messed up. It is you who are connecting the two not me, for me they are two entirely unrelated concepts. I put game play in and i get satisfaction out. Completely unrelated Is me gaining sp for the time my sub runs. Other than buying a few implants and skill books none of my skill progression has come from my work, why would i feel satisfaction for it?
If i sit in a new ship i have worked towards i will feel plenty of satisfaction at the work i have done to earn the isk to buy it and its fitting. Why would I feel satisfaction about the skills to fly it i have bought with rl money? I mean people who only play by plex can get a kick out of it since they are working for thier sp as well but that is still a minority of players for a minority of the time eve has existed. And why would such people grudge others paying for sp which they themselves can't afford when it is already happening every month in the form of the subscription? There will only be the abilty for people to plex so long as other people are willing to pay for SP.
If how much time and effort you put into eve had any impact on sp creation we would not be having this conversation. I would be against TSPs, hell i would even be against the character bazarr. But it doesn't, all that goes into skill training is money.
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
935
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 17:15:27 -
[5506] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: Its like a lvl1 character in wow asking why he cant be instant 100 because i couldnt be arsed to try it until now, Its an impossible ask to try and balance something that already has over a decade of history.
That is nonsense, progression in wow is based on"time and effort" as you put it. Progression in eve is based on number of subs paid (directly or indirectly through plex). What balance is involved? None whatsoever. And a 5 million sp eve char is not the same as a level 100 wow char so why even compare the two? You still pay a subcription to wow, unless you've found a blizzard server thats now f2p, Both game models are sub based but with EvE you still skill up if you interact or not wow you dont - So a skillpoint system has its benefits. I didnt compare a lvl100 character to a 5m skillpoint character. There is nothing direct or indirect with my subscription either i pay by card as previously pointed out - i dont grind or expect to play for free. I come to have a fun and a laugh not at the expense of others. So you do not agree with the following statement then : Basically you put together a combination of ship/modules/rigs/implants and most importantly your skills to create a fit that does what you want in your style.Does that not fit perfect for describing a goal.
Again you conflate "playing" with "progressing". You are somehow, with a straight face i might add, saying that your skill comes from your "time and affort", yet at the same time point out how in eve you skill up regardless of what you do. These two stances are mutually exclusive, they cannot both be true and why everything you say is illogical.
And you did compare a 5 million sp eve char with a level 100 WoW char. i said why shouldn't someone be able to give thier friend they brought to game 5 mil sp to fly with them and you quoted me and said:
"Its like a lvl1 character in wow asking why he cant be instant 100 because i couldnt be arsed to try it until now"
So what exactly were you trying to say?
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
19
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 17:26:26 -
[5507] - Quote
Reading back through this mega-post several likes & dislikes keep reappearing - Two points of concern dominate:
(1) I want to undo my skill training mistakes VS You made the mistakes live with them.
Create a Re-Map-SP item that can be used the same way as the character redesign
It gives CCP a nice little cash earner and because you can do neural remaps already its not a break from game design. You get to remap and reallocate (or not ) all of the available SP & if you want sell a character at the bazaar with points ready for allocation
(2) The creation & destruction of Skill Points or SP for sale.
This is the biggest bone of contention. With comments about P2W, subs for SP advantages for newbies etc. etc - but If you have a remap SP in place you need only worry about SP gain. With so many opposed to the appearance of it being p2w or buying SP that couldn't have be obtained with the subs/time/ SP paradigm. Obtaining more SP without buying them whole satisfied nearly all of these concerns because its all about the rate of SP gain which is part of the game already.
Why not introduce a range of boosters that have diminishing returns dependent on your existing number of SP - This has the added bonus of expanding the booster industry.
There are too many here that are willing to say NO do this way because I thinks it will only work the other way - How about working on a little compromise. |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
935
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 17:27:09 -
[5508] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added
If you think of this as how much ISK a character can afford to pay -- It looks like it assumes that a bitterVet only earns 10x times a newbie can earn - 8 x more than a 50mil SP player
No wonder TSP is being defended with so much fervor - Given the real earnings you can make with a 80mill ++ toon they can afford to consume these TSP like candy
Its way off - maybe it should be > 80 million skillpoints = 5,000 unallocated skillpoints added A well focused 50mill SP will match 80mill SP in earning potential (either is more than enough to do any isk earning activity). I certainly am not making 8x what I was then, I doubt most people are that didn't find something entirely different and more lucrative to do, likely largely decoupled from their prior SP investment as well. That said I think it should actually cap at some point to where no further SP can be added. Probably an exaggeration on my part with the 5k skill point - but its a lot easier to make a plex worth of ISK with an 80 mill toon than a 25 mill - I like the cap for adding more SP or maybe a time limit for how many you can plugin over a period of time - a cool down timer for TSP implants
Its not "much easier" to make isk with an 80 mil sp toon than a 25 mil toon. You are completely making that up. The 80 mil toon might be able to do it in different ways the 25 mil toon can't but what method of making isk will a 25 mil toon be heavily outcompeted by an 80 mil toon? Given for sub caps only 30 mil or so sp is actually relevant at any given time and diminishing returns makes that 5 million sp negligible it isn't the case in pve. In high end industry it might mean running one less job at a time, maybe a 5% cut in productivity?
Past the initial basic skill training (10mil?) all the sp players gain is either put into being able to do different things, or chasing tiny improvements in eficiency. If you are on of those people who thinks some lame level 5 skill which gives a 2% bonus to some irrelevant stat makes things "way easier" for anyone there is really no hope for you.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 17:27:42 -
[5509] - Quote
Doddy wrote: So what exactly were you trying to say?
Levi can I speak for you like you did it? Thanks.
So he want to say that you are wrong, no matter what you said. He love to argue with somebody. And don't really matter if he contradict with himselfe. If he see that he was wrong than he get it personal. Beware even Dror gave up on him.
Pinky Bear
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
935
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 17:56:55 -
[5510] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Probably an exaggeration on my part with the 5k skill point -
but its a lot easier to make a plex worth of ISK with an 80 mill toon than a 25 mill - I like the cap for adding more SP or maybe a time limit for how many you can plugin over a period of time - a cool down timer for TSP implants I'd say challenge accepted, as building an incursion character with 25mill SP is simple enough, but since that's a year of training to put into proof I'll not be doing that. Also someone would still probably put those earnings to shame with a brand new market toon anyways. Soon you will be able throw in a few plexes - and - wow an instant incursion toon
A few plexes?
new char starts with 500k sp, first 4.5 million of tsp has no diminishing returns so 9 TSP to get there.
next 20 mil is added at 400 k sp per TSP so another 50 TSP
59 TSP to get to the 25 million sp you dismiss, by best guess prices that is about 30 plex, not "a few"
to get to your 80 million char that is another 25 million sp at 400k/TSP, so another 62.5 TSP
plus 30 million sp at 200k sp/TSP, so another 150 TSP
So 262 TSPfor this 80 mil sp char you speak of, 131 plex
From that point on to get to a mighty 100 mil sp character would take another 400 TSP/200 plex
So yeah, like people paying 140 billion isk / $2700 dollars for an 80 mil char when they could already get the same for far, far less in the bazarr is remotely an issue. Oh noes, they get to pick the chars name and its date of birth wont match its sp, boohoohohhoo how terrible my bittervet backbone.
Dont even get me started on the idea that people are going to spend another 200 billion+ isk/ $4000 to add each 20 mil sp after that. A 300 mil char for 2.3 trillion isk/$47k dollars? wow that sounds like a great idea...... I am sure there will be scores of them flying around.
Though yeah, a simple hard cap and monthly cap and people terrified of some millionaire having more sp than them wont even have their imagination to bother them. |
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
19
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 17:59:05 -
[5511] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added
If you think of this as how much ISK a character can afford to pay -- It looks like it assumes that a bitterVet only earns 10x times a newbie can earn - 8 x more than a 50mil SP player
No wonder TSP is being defended with so much fervor - Given the real earnings you can make with a 80mill ++ toon they can afford to consume these TSP like candy
Its way off - maybe it should be > 80 million skillpoints = 5,000 unallocated skillpoints added A well focused 50mill SP will match 80mill SP in earning potential (either is more than enough to do any isk earning activity). I certainly am not making 8x what I was then, I doubt most people are that didn't find something entirely different and more lucrative to do, likely largely decoupled from their prior SP investment as well. That said I think it should actually cap at some point to where no further SP can be added. Probably an exaggeration on my part with the 5k skill point - but its a lot easier to make a plex worth of ISK with an 80 mill toon than a 25 mill - I like the cap for adding more SP or maybe a time limit for how many you can plugin over a period of time - a cool down timer for TSP implants Its not "much easier" to make isk with an 80 mil sp toon than a 25 mil toon. You are completely making that up. The 80 mil toon might be able to do it in different ways the 25 mil toon can't but what method of making isk will a 25 mil toon be heavily outcompeted by an 80 mil toon? Given for sub caps only 30 mil or so sp is actually relevant at any given time and diminishing returns makes that 5 million sp negligible it isn't the case in pve. In high end industry it might mean running one less job at a time, maybe a 5% cut in productivity? Past the initial basic skill training (10mil?) all the sp players gain is either put into being able to do different things, or chasing tiny improvements in eficiency. If you are on of those people who thinks some lame level 5 skill which gives a 2% bonus to some irrelevant stat makes things "way easier" for anyone there is really no hope for you.
My 24mill SP toon in a pimped out rattlesnake can solo nealy all the sites in a C3 Combat Sigs drop - 100-150 million per hours work
I cannot solo anything in a C5 but as a 12 year old player I'm pretty sure you can Combat sigs 200 - 400 million per hour
Let me see ... is it easier active-ratting in a C3 for 100-150 mill per hour or watching Netflix while passive drone ratting in a C5 for upto 4 times that.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=410322 most of the posters here seem to think the numbers are accurate - someone else's post so - Completely NOT made up |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
19
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 18:01:55 -
[5512] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Probably an exaggeration on my part with the 5k skill point -
but its a lot easier to make a plex worth of ISK with an 80 mill toon than a 25 mill - I like the cap for adding more SP or maybe a time limit for how many you can plugin over a period of time - a cool down timer for TSP implants I'd say challenge accepted, as building an incursion character with 25mill SP is simple enough, but since that's a year of training to put into proof I'll not be doing that. Also someone would still probably put those earnings to shame with a brand new market toon anyways. Soon you will be able throw in a few plexes - and - wow an instant incursion toon A few plexes? new char starts with 500k sp, first 4.5 million of tsp has no diminishing returns so 9 TSP to get there. next 20 mil is added at 400 k sp per TSP so another 50 TSP 59 TSP to get to the 25 million sp you dismiss, by best guess prices that is about 30 plex, not "a few" to get to your 80 million char that is another 25 million sp at 400k/TSP, so another 62.5 TSP plus 30 million sp at 200k sp/TSP, so another 150 TSP So 262 TSPfor this 80 mil sp char you speak of, 131 plex From that point on to get to a mighty 100 mil sp character would take another 400 TSP/200 plex So yeah, like people paying 140 billion isk / $2700 dollars for an 80 mil char when they could already get the same for far, far less in the bazarr is remotely an issue. Oh noes, they get to pick the chars name and its date of birth wont match its sp, boohoohohhoo how terrible my bittervet backbone. Dont even get me started on the idea that people are going to spend another 200 billion+ isk/ $4000 to add each 20 mil sp after that. A 300 mil char for 2.3 trillion isk/$47k dollars? wow that sounds like a great idea...... I am sure there will be scores of them flying around. Though yeah, a simple hard cap and monthly cap and people terrified of some millionaire having more sp than them wont even have their imagination to bother them.
-Agreed - The system as it stands will be way out of the financial reach of a newbie --- why do you keep saying its good for newbies
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
936
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 19:21:28 -
[5513] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Probably an exaggeration on my part with the 5k skill point -
but its a lot easier to make a plex worth of ISK with an 80 mill toon than a 25 mill - I like the cap for adding more SP or maybe a time limit for how many you can plugin over a period of time - a cool down timer for TSP implants I'd say challenge accepted, as building an incursion character with 25mill SP is simple enough, but since that's a year of training to put into proof I'll not be doing that. Also someone would still probably put those earnings to shame with a brand new market toon anyways. Soon you will be able throw in a few plexes - and - wow an instant incursion toon A few plexes? new char starts with 500k sp, first 4.5 million of tsp has no diminishing returns so 9 TSP to get there. next 20 mil is added at 400 k sp per TSP so another 50 TSP 59 TSP to get to the 25 million sp you dismiss, by best guess prices that is about 30 plex, not "a few" to get to your 80 million char that is another 25 million sp at 400k/TSP, so another 62.5 TSP plus 30 million sp at 200k sp/TSP, so another 150 TSP So 262 TSPfor this 80 mil sp char you speak of, 131 plex From that point on to get to a mighty 100 mil sp character would take another 400 TSP/200 plex So yeah, like people paying 140 billion isk / $2700 dollars for an 80 mil char when they could already get the same for far, far less in the bazarr is remotely an issue. Oh noes, they get to pick the chars name and its date of birth wont match its sp, boohoohohhoo how terrible my bittervet backbone. Dont even get me started on the idea that people are going to spend another 200 billion+ isk/ $4000 to add each 20 mil sp after that. A 300 mil char for 2.3 trillion isk/$47k dollars? wow that sounds like a great idea...... I am sure there will be scores of them flying around. Though yeah, a simple hard cap and monthly cap and people terrified of some millionaire having more sp than them wont even have their imagination to bother them. -Agreed - The system as it stands will be way out of the financial reach of a newbie --- why do you keep saying its good for newbies
That is not what i said at all. It will be way out of reach for anyone to add more than a a few mil sp in TSP. If you cant get your head around the fact that a newbie doubling their SP for 500 mil isk is in a better position than a bittervet adding o.o25% to their sp for the same 500 mil isk there is really no hope for you at all. You clearly have no understanding of how eves skill system works. 500k sp to a newbie unlocks whole new avenues of gameplay, 50k sp to a bittervet knocks 1 measley day off of whatever level 5 skill they have training.
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
19
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 19:26:42 -
[5514] - Quote
Doddy wrote: A few plexes?
new char starts with 500k sp, first 4.5 million of tsp has no diminishing returns so 9 TSP to get there.
next 20 mil is added at 400 k sp per TSP so another 50 TSP
59 TSP to get to the 25 million sp you dismiss, by best guess prices that is about 30 plex, not "a few"
to get to your 80 million char that is another 25 million sp at 400k/TSP, so another 62.5 TSP
plus 30 million sp at 200k sp/TSP, so another 150 TSP
So 262 TSPfor this 80 mil sp char you speak of, 131 plex
From that point on to get to a mighty 100 mil sp character would take another 400 TSP/200 plex
So yeah, like people paying 140 billion isk / $2700 dollars for an 80 mil char when they could already get the same for far, far less in the bazarr is remotely an issue. Oh noes, they get to pick the chars name and its date of birth wont match its sp, boohoohohhoo how terrible my bittervet backbone.
Dont even get me started on the idea that people are going to spend another 200 billion+ isk/ $4000 to add each 20 mil sp after that. A 300 mil char for 2.3 trillion isk/$47k dollars? wow that sounds like a great idea...... I am sure there will be scores of them flying around.
Though yeah, a simple hard cap and monthly cap and people terrified of some millionaire having more sp than them wont even have their imagination to bother them.
-Agreed - The system as it stands will be way out of the financial reach of a newbie --- why do you keep saying its good for newbies
Quote: That is not what i said at all. It will be way out of reach for anyone to add more than a a few mil sp in TSP. If you cant get your head around the fact that a newbie doubling their SP for 500 mil isk is in a better position than a bittervet adding o.o25% to their sp for the same 500 mil isk there is really no hope for you at all. You clearly have no understanding of how eves skill system works. 500k sp to a newbie unlocks whole new avenues of gameplay, 50k sp to a bittervet knocks 1 measley day off of whatever level 5 skill they have training.
- Agreed - The system as it stands only gives a 0.025% increase to a Vets skils and as such is no use to them -- why do you keep saying its what vets want |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
936
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 19:31:01 -
[5515] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added
If you think of this as how much ISK a character can afford to pay -- It looks like it assumes that a bitterVet only earns 10x times a newbie can earn - 8 x more than a 50mil SP player
No wonder TSP is being defended with so much fervor - Given the real earnings you can make with a 80mill ++ toon they can afford to consume these TSP like candy
Its way off - maybe it should be > 80 million skillpoints = 5,000 unallocated skillpoints added A well focused 50mill SP will match 80mill SP in earning potential (either is more than enough to do any isk earning activity). I certainly am not making 8x what I was then, I doubt most people are that didn't find something entirely different and more lucrative to do, likely largely decoupled from their prior SP investment as well. That said I think it should actually cap at some point to where no further SP can be added. Probably an exaggeration on my part with the 5k skill point - but its a lot easier to make a plex worth of ISK with an 80 mill toon than a 25 mill - I like the cap for adding more SP or maybe a time limit for how many you can plugin over a period of time - a cool down timer for TSP implants Its not "much easier" to make isk with an 80 mil sp toon than a 25 mil toon. You are completely making that up. The 80 mil toon might be able to do it in different ways the 25 mil toon can't but what method of making isk will a 25 mil toon be heavily outcompeted by an 80 mil toon? Given for sub caps only 30 mil or so sp is actually relevant at any given time and diminishing returns makes that 5 million sp negligible it isn't the case in pve. In high end industry it might mean running one less job at a time, maybe a 5% cut in productivity? Past the initial basic skill training (10mil?) all the sp players gain is either put into being able to do different things, or chasing tiny improvements in eficiency. If you are on of those people who thinks some lame level 5 skill which gives a 2% bonus to some irrelevant stat makes things "way easier" for anyone there is really no hope for you. My 24mill SP toon in a pimped out rattlesnake can solo nealy all the sites in a C3 Combat Sigs drop - 100-150 million per hours work I cannot solo anything in a C5 but as a 12 year old player I'm pretty sure you can Combat sigs 200 - 400 million per hour Let me see ... is it easier active-ratting in a C3 for 100-150 mill per hour or watching Netflix while passive drone ratting in a C5 for upto 4 times that. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=410322 most of the posters here seem to think the numbers are accurate - someone else's post so - Completely NOT made up
More nonsense. Nowhere in that thread does it mention sp of players.
What 12 year old player? You said 80 million SP, that is a char a third that old.
Even so an 80mil rattlesnake char wont run C3s "much easier" than you. A 24 mil sp capital/marauder char wont run C5s "much harder" than an 80mil sp char. Why are you being so dishonest as to compare two completely different things?
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
936
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 19:32:38 -
[5516] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Doddy wrote: A few plexes?
new char starts with 500k sp, first 4.5 million of tsp has no diminishing returns so 9 TSP to get there.
next 20 mil is added at 400 k sp per TSP so another 50 TSP
59 TSP to get to the 25 million sp you dismiss, by best guess prices that is about 30 plex, not "a few"
to get to your 80 million char that is another 25 million sp at 400k/TSP, so another 62.5 TSP
plus 30 million sp at 200k sp/TSP, so another 150 TSP
So 262 TSPfor this 80 mil sp char you speak of, 131 plex
From that point on to get to a mighty 100 mil sp character would take another 400 TSP/200 plex
So yeah, like people paying 140 billion isk / $2700 dollars for an 80 mil char when they could already get the same for far, far less in the bazarr is remotely an issue. Oh noes, they get to pick the chars name and its date of birth wont match its sp, boohoohohhoo how terrible my bittervet backbone.
Dont even get me started on the idea that people are going to spend another 200 billion+ isk/ $4000 to add each 20 mil sp after that. A 300 mil char for 2.3 trillion isk/$47k dollars? wow that sounds like a great idea...... I am sure there will be scores of them flying around.
Though yeah, a simple hard cap and monthly cap and people terrified of some millionaire having more sp than them wont even have their imagination to bother them.
-Agreed - The system as it stands will be way out of the financial reach of a newbie --- why do you keep saying its good for newbies Quote: That is not what i said at all. It will be way out of reach for anyone to add more than a a few mil sp in TSP. If you cant get your head around the fact that a newbie doubling their SP for 500 mil isk is in a better position than a bittervet adding o.o25% to their sp for the same 500 mil isk there is really no hope for you at all. You clearly have no understanding of how eves skill system works. 500k sp to a newbie unlocks whole new avenues of gameplay, 50k sp to a bittervet knocks 1 measley day off of whatever level 5 skill they have training.
- Agreed - The system as it stands only gives a 0.025% increase to a Vets skils and as such is no use to them -- why do you keep saying its what vets want
Where did i ever say its what Vets want? The only mention I have made of vets using it is to get rid of sp, maybe give them to friends..... You really are losing track.... |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
154
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 19:37:02 -
[5517] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote: - Agreed - The system as it stands only gives a 0.025% increase to a Vets skils and as such is no use to them -- why do you keep saying its what vets want
Iowa Banshee wrote:-Agreed - The system as it stands will be way out of the financial reach of a newbie --- why do you keep saying its good for newbies Why do you asking? We all know that socratic method is very powerful tool for argueing but please use it properly.
Pinky Bear
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
19
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 20:11:54 -
[5518] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: - Agreed - The system as it stands only gives a 0.025% increase to a Vets skils and as such is no use to them -- why do you keep saying its what vets want
Iowa Banshee wrote:-Agreed - The system as it stands will be way out of the financial reach of a newbie --- why do you keep saying its good for newbies Why do you asking? We all know that socratic method is very powerful tool for argueing but please use it properly.
I am asking - because every time someone posts he makes a counterpoint that looks valid on its own but contradicts something already used as a counterpoint - You cant argue the sames thing is both good and bad and gainsaying is just a form of Trolling
Its good for a newbie they can get SP // Its bad for a Newbie they can't get SP - too expensive Its good for vets to use unwanted skills // its bad for vets to use unwanted skills - is only at .025%
" An argument is a connected series of statements to establish a definite proposition. Contradiction is just the automatic gain-saying of anything the other person says." Monty Python
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
194
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 20:26:45 -
[5519] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: just giving more in depth to your suggestions.
Yeap, me too. I'm doing it all the time.
In start you actually tried, but after few pages you went to trolling mode...
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
154
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 20:31:12 -
[5520] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote: I am asking - because every time someone posts he makes a counterpoint that looks valid on its own but contradicts something already used as a counterpoint - You cant argue the sames thing is both good and bad and gainsaying is just a form of Trolling
True.
Iowa Banshee wrote: Its good for a newbie they can get SP // Its bad for a Newbie they can't get SP - too expensive Its good for vets to use unwanted skills // its bad for vets to use unwanted skills - is only at .025%
I can say that this change will be good for me(as a noob). Price is unknown varible but we could guess. I don't really bother about vets because they have experience, isks and SP. They should work out. Vets could not only use unwanted skills again but sell them.
Pinky Bear
|
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
154
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 20:40:12 -
[5521] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: just giving more in depth to your suggestions.
Yeap, me too. I'm doing it all the time. In start you actually tried, but after few pages you went to trolling mode...
Quote:You see, madness, as you know, is like gravity. All it takes is a little push! Don't push me with absurd statements like separating servers and I will be fine.
Pinky Bear
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
194
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 20:42:46 -
[5522] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: just giving more in depth to your suggestions.
Yeap, me too. I'm doing it all the time. In start you actually tried, but after few pages you went to trolling mode... Quote:You see, madness, as you know, is like gravity. All it takes is a little push! Don't push me with absurd statements like separating servers and I will be fine.
You made analogy for that, between sportsman who compete regularly and sportsman with prosthetics and their own competitions.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
19
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 20:46:53 -
[5523] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: I am asking - because every time someone posts he makes a counterpoint that looks valid on its own but contradicts something already used as a counterpoint - You cant argue the sames thing is both good and bad and gainsaying is just a form of Trolling
True. Iowa Banshee wrote: Its good for a newbie they can get SP // Its bad for a Newbie they can't get SP - too expensive Its good for vets to use unwanted skills // its bad for vets to use unwanted skills - is only at .025%
I can say that this change will be good for me(as a noob). Price is unknown varible but we could guess. I don't really bother about vets because they have experience, isks and SP. They should work out. Vets could not only use unwanted skills again but sell them. For the long list of reasons found in this thread I am against selling/transferring/destroying SP - I believe that SP is and has always been tied to the CCP subscription financial model.
That being said - I think a re-mapping-SP tool made like the re-sculpture item satisfies all the needs of people wanting to reassign SP
Boosters to increase your learning rate still give you the wanted extra SP and satisfies people who object because of the Subscription/Time/SP model ( Diminishing returns for higher SP players)
I don't think there is anything mentioned in this thread that cannot be addressed with these 2 items
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
154
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 20:57:37 -
[5524] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: You made analogy for that, between sportsman who compete regularly and sportsman with prosthetics and their own competitions.
Yes, but I defenetly didn't suggest to separate servers, just API stats.
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:
You are suggesting CCP should have separate server for those who want this new feature and other which speed up their development? Could not agree more :)
We talking about prestige, right? Just let them to separate regular SP from injected one. CCP Terminus wrote: there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints.
Pinky Bear
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
937
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 21:06:49 -
[5525] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: I am asking - because every time someone posts he makes a counterpoint that looks valid on its own but contradicts something already used as a counterpoint - You cant argue the sames thing is both good and bad and gainsaying is just a form of Trolling
True. Iowa Banshee wrote: Its good for a newbie they can get SP // Its bad for a Newbie they can't get SP - too expensive Its good for vets to use unwanted skills // its bad for vets to use unwanted skills - is only at .025%
I can say that this change will be good for me(as a noob). Price is unknown varible but we could guess. I don't really bother about vets because they have experience, isks and SP. They should work out. Vets could not only use unwanted skills again but sell them. For the long list of reasons found in this thread I am against selling/transferring/destroying SP - I believe that SP is and has always been tied to the CCP subscription financial model. That being said - I think a re-mapping-SP tool made like the re-sculpture item satisfies all the needs of people wanting to reassign SP Boosters to increase your learning rate still give you the wanted extra SP and satisfies people who object because of the Subscription/Time/SP model ( Diminishing returns for higher SP players) I don't think there is anything mentioned in this thread that cannot be addressed with these 2 items
What you suggest is fair enough, but people can already transfer sp between players in the bazar, why that is not against the "subscription financial model" but transferring sp between characters is? I mean the characters don't have the subs, the players do. So you basically want to create two methods instead of one, and leave the trade of SP which is already happening alone in all its out of game, can only do it if you go to the forums, clumsy third method? Three mechanics instead of one, one of which is out of game? Doesn't seem very rational?
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
194
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 21:07:42 -
[5526] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: And patch bringing this will be different from others since game fundamental is going to be changed. So it is not just if someone likes ship, pos, missions, whatever changes. This is the biggest change ever as it is change in CCP`s relations to its customers.
Yeap, it's crucial changing. Like inventing prostetic limbs(remember your sports metaphor about prestige)... Is it right thing to disqualify person from challenge who suffered from loosing limb but now he has prostetic one? Totally wrong analogy since people with prosthetic limbs are not allowed to compete in regular competitions, they have their own. So it is obviously right.
Let me refresh your memory. You have implied that all sportsman, regardless of handicap compete / should compete together. Which is not true as they have their own separated competitions.
edit: So with that analogy, we should have separate servers :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
154
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 21:15:06 -
[5527] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: I am asking - because every time someone posts he makes a counterpoint that looks valid on its own but contradicts something already used as a counterpoint - You cant argue the sames thing is both good and bad and gainsaying is just a form of Trolling
True. Iowa Banshee wrote: Its good for a newbie they can get SP // Its bad for a Newbie they can't get SP - too expensive Its good for vets to use unwanted skills // its bad for vets to use unwanted skills - is only at .025%
I can say that this change will be good for me(as a noob). Price is unknown varible but we could guess. I don't really bother about vets because they have experience, isks and SP. They should work out. Vets could not only use unwanted skills again but sell them. For the long list of reasons found in this thread I am against selling/transferring/destroying SP - I believe that SP is and has always been tied to the CCP subscription financial model. That being said - I think a re-mapping-SP tool made like the re-sculpture item satisfies all the needs of people wanting to reassign SP Boosters to increase your learning rate still give you the wanted extra SP and satisfies people who object because of the Subscription/Time/SP model ( Diminishing returns for higher SP players) I don't think there is anything mentioned in this thread that cannot be addressed with these 2 items I can tell you that it won't help me much because I have low SP(because I'm noob) and relocating won't speed up progress at my plan. Furthermore there is a group of people who talked that consequences of skill choises won't be matter anymore if TSP will be implemented. So you get it worse with re-mapping-SP tool.
Pinky Bear
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
154
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 21:28:13 -
[5528] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: Let me refresh your memory. You have implied that all sportsman, regardless of handicap compete / should compete together. Which is not true as they have their own separated competitions.
Nope, I just asked you
Quote: Is it right thing to disqualify person from challenge who suffered from loosing limb but now he has prostetic one? Anyway my point is they should have separate top tables(API stats) thats all.
Don ZOLA wrote: edit: So with that analogy, we should have separate servers :)
Hulk Smash!
Pinky Bear
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
194
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 22:00:00 -
[5529] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: Let me refresh your memory. You have implied that all sportsman, regardless of handicap compete / should compete together. Which is not true as they have their own separated competitions.
Nope, I just asked you Quote: Is it right thing to disqualify person from challenge who suffered from loosing limb but now he has prostetic one? Anyway my point is they should have separate top tables(API stats) thats all. Don ZOLA wrote: edit: So with that analogy, we should have separate servers :)
Hulk Smash!P.S. Funny thing is that outsiders(disabled people) terrifying regular sportsmans because sportsmans could be outcompeted by disabled one. Disabled is not so disabled ...
But they are disqualified. That was my point :)
Regarding API, as I said it could be done that injected SP does not calculate in total SP. Still that would cover only one of the concerns, more important ones are still there.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
154
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 22:17:20 -
[5530] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:
P.S. Funny thing is that outsiders(disabled people) terrifying regular sportsmans because sportsmans could be outcompeted by disabled one. Disabled is not so disabled ...
But they are disqualified. That was my point :) Regarding API, as I said it could be done that injected SP does not calculate in total SP. Still that would cover only one of the concerns, more important ones are still there.
Don ZOLA wrote:You do not have to invalidate them. Maybe you will come up with one counter argument which would make me change a part of my opinion. You have too many concerns maybe because you are on wrong side or maybe because you looking too deep into depth and found no light for yourselfe.
Pinky Bear
|
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
20
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 22:31:24 -
[5531] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: I am asking - because every time someone posts he makes a counterpoint that looks valid on its own but contradicts something already used as a counterpoint - You cant argue the sames thing is both good and bad and gainsaying is just a form of Trolling
True. Iowa Banshee wrote: Its good for a newbie they can get SP // Its bad for a Newbie they can't get SP - too expensive Its good for vets to use unwanted skills // its bad for vets to use unwanted skills - is only at .025%
I can say that this change will be good for me(as a noob). Price is unknown varible but we could guess. I don't really bother about vets because they have experience, isks and SP. They should work out. Vets could not only use unwanted skills again but sell them. For the long list of reasons found in this thread I am against selling/transferring/destroying SP - I believe that SP is and has always been tied to the CCP subscription financial model. That being said - I think a re-mapping-SP tool made like the re-sculpture item satisfies all the needs of people wanting to reassign SP Boosters to increase your learning rate still give you the wanted extra SP and satisfies people who object because of the Subscription/Time/SP model ( Diminishing returns for higher SP players) I don't think there is anything mentioned in this thread that cannot be addressed with these 2 items What you suggest is fair enough, but people can already transfer sp between players in the bazar, why that is not against the "subscription financial model" but transferring sp between characters is? I mean the characters don't have the subs, the players do. So you basically want to create two methods instead of one, and leave the trade of SP which is already happening alone in all its out of game, can only do it if you go to the forums, clumsy third method? Three mechanics instead of one, one of which is out of game? Doesn't seem very rational?
You cannot trade SP at the Bazaar you can only trade characters
I will try to explain the subscription financial model from a Subscribers point of view - Stay with me I did said "try" and it has some difficult concepts
I pay about $12 a month to subscribe to eve.
Everything I have in game - Plex, Aur, ships, towers, ISK what ever is worth $12 - but - only if I have a plex gained in game to replace that months subscription - Once I use that plex everything I have in game is of no value for the remainder of the month because it cannot be spent.
When duel training arrived - The worth of my in game assets (if I have enough to liquidate to use plex to duel train & Plex) became $36 because that is the maximum of eve assets I can spend in RL If I do not have enough assets to duel train and have buy a Plex to do so I have just entered into a pay to win transaction
With SP trading the number of pay2win transactions is not 3 ( 1 plex to sub 2 plex to duel train) but unlimited. This will put EVE firmly into the Pay to Win category
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
938
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 23:30:44 -
[5532] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:
You cannot trade SP at the Bazaar you can only trade characters
I will try to explain the subscription financial model from a Subscribers point of view - Stay with me I did said "try" and it has some difficult concepts
I pay about $12 a month to subscribe to eve.
Everything I have in game - Plex, Aur, ships, towers, ISK what ever is worth $12 - but - only if I have a plex gained in game to replace that months subscription - Once I use that plex everything I have in game is of no value for the remainder of the month because it cannot be spent.
When duel training arrived - The worth of my in game assets (if I have enough to liquidate to use plex to duel train & Plex) became $36 because that is the maximum of eve assets I can spend in RL If I do not have enough assets to duel train and have buy a Plex to do so I have just entered into a pay to win transaction
With SP trading the number of pay2win transactions is not 3 ( 1 plex to sub 2 plex to duel train) but unlimited. This will put EVE firmly into the Pay to Win category
A character is just a container of sp, you cannot have sp on your account without it being on a character, and if you trade the character the sp goes with it. Saying its not trading sp is like saying, "no, you didn't buy honey you bought a jar,". The only other thing traded with a character is standing/sec status and trades done on that basis are niche, plus can already be bought to a great extent with isk.
Why is everything you have in game worth $12? That is like saying you paid $100 to get your car out the impound so your car is worth $100. Or you paid $100 to rent a flat so the contents of the flat are worth $100. Just because you lose access to an asset does not mean it ceases to exist, nor does it mean the asset is worth however much you paid to regain access to it. You pay $12 for access to ccps game with 1 characters training time. You can pay another $12 for another characters training time, whether you do this through dual character training or start a new account and get a second access to the game is up to you. Your in game assets (including your character) are actually "worth" however many plex you could trade them for assuming a) you want to continue playing the game and would otherwise have paid in cash, b) somebody is willing to buy plex to trade for your assets and c) CCP allows the plex trade to occur. If any of these three things are not true your in game assets are worth nothing. Whether you sub or not, have dual char training active or use TSP make no difference to this whatsoever. Somebody using a TSP can add to the value of their assets with rl money, but so can anybody cashing plex.
So you can already sub as many accounts as you want, earning as much sp as you want. The more accounts you pay for the more SP CCP rewards you with. You are saying everyone with more than one account is P2W? Well yes, its been here since eve started. Having sp on a different account is almost always better than having more sp one 1 account thanks to the diminishing returns skill system so TSP with yet more diminishing returns are total small fry compared to this "P2W" which already exists.
The guy spending his rl money to pay for multiple accounts is gaining far more than somebody using the same money for TSPs, at a far smaller cost.
However since SP is not lost with access to the game, indeed is never lost, it is direct pay to win even with 1 char on 1 account. People who have paid more have a greater advantage. Thankfully eves skill system works against this, but it still an issue. Whoever has paid the sub the longest will have the pay to win advantage in some area of the game. Thankfully eve is varied enough that it rarely matters, but you are kidding yourself if you think its not there.
People crying because that guy might get 50k more sp than them with his rl cash are conveniently forgettingthat they themselves already have millions of sp more than some guy starting tomorrow because of their own rl cash. Total hypocrisy.
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
154
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 23:47:49 -
[5533] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: But they are disqualified. That was my point :)
You should to watch
Pinky Bear
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
21
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 02:39:09 -
[5534] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:
You cannot trade SP at the Bazaar you can only trade characters
I will try to explain the subscription financial model from a Subscribers point of view - Stay with me I did said "try" and it has some difficult concepts
I pay about $12 a month to subscribe to eve.
Everything I have in game - Plex, Aur, ships, towers, ISK what ever is worth $12 - but - only if I have a plex gained in game to replace that months subscription - Once I use that plex everything I have in game is of no value for the remainder of the month because it cannot be spent.
When duel training arrived - The worth of my in game assets (if I have enough to liquidate to use plex to duel train & Plex) became $36 because that is the maximum of eve assets I can spend in RL If I do not have enough assets to duel train and have buy a Plex to do so I have just entered into a pay to win transaction
With SP trading the number of pay2win transactions is not 3 ( 1 plex to sub 2 plex to duel train) but unlimited. This will put EVE firmly into the Pay to Win category
A character is just a container of sp, you cannot have sp on your account without it being on a character, and if you trade the character the sp goes with it. Saying its not trading sp is like saying, "no, you didn't buy honey you bought a jar,". The only other thing traded with a character is standing/sec status and trades done on that basis are niche, plus can already be bought to a great extent with isk. Why is everything you have in game worth $12? That is like saying you paid $100 to get your car out the impound so your car is worth $100. Or you paid $100 to rent a flat so the contents of the flat are worth $100. Just because you lose access to an asset does not mean it ceases to exist, nor does it mean the asset is worth however much you paid to regain access to it. You pay $12 for access to ccps game with 1 characters training time. You can pay another $12 for another characters training time, whether you do this through dual character training or start a new account and get a second access to the game is up to you. Your in game assets (including your character) are actually "worth" however many plex you could trade them for assuming a) you want to continue playing the game and would otherwise have paid in cash, b) somebody is willing to buy plex to trade for your assets and c) CCP allows the plex trade to occur. If any of these three things are not true your in game assets are worth nothing. Whether you sub or not, have dual char training active or use TSP make no difference to this whatsoever. Somebody using a TSP can add to the value of their assets with rl money, but so can anybody cashing plex. So you can already sub as many accounts as you want, earning as much sp as you want. The more accounts you pay for the more SP CCP rewards you with. You are saying everyone with more than one account is P2W? Well yes, its been here since eve started. Having sp on a different account is almost always better than having more sp one 1 account thanks to the diminishing returns skill system so TSP with yet more diminishing returns are total small fry compared to this "P2W" which already exists. The guy spending his rl money to pay for multiple accounts is gaining far more than somebody using the same money for TSPs, at a far smaller cost. However since SP is not lost with access to the game, indeed is never lost, it is direct pay to win even with 1 char on 1 account. People who have paid more have a greater advantage. Thankfully eves skill system works against this, but it still an issue. Whoever has paid the sub the longest will have the pay to win advantage in some area of the game. Thankfully eve is varied enough that it rarely matters, but you are kidding yourself if you think its not there. People crying because that guy might get 50k more sp than them with his rl cash are conveniently forgettingthat they themselves already have millions of sp more than some guy starting tomorrow because of their own rl cash. Total hypocrisy.
Once again - you cannot buy SP at the Bazaar - Only a Character that has skill points (using your analogy - you bought a jar of honey but cannot buy a spoonful to add to your jar)
OK - Financial models are a bit of a hard subject - Try to think of it like this
You rent an island and once a month a boat docks to sell you a box of candy for $12 good news is if you buy the box of candy you don't have to pay rent. So even if you have $1,000 in a suitcase its still only worth $12 a month to you because that's all you can spend.
2 friends wash up (duel training) and when the boat docks only get to buy 2 extra boxes of candy - As long as you have money your friends will get fat n but because you can only spend $36 the contents of the suitcase is still only worth that much.
The boat man then says I will sell you as many boxes of candy (SP for Sale/Trade) per month as you can afford. so you spend all the money in your suitcase and get really fat
The prize for being the fattest is you get to drink Champaign and sleep with anyone in world you want every night. The island next door has a suitcase with $1,000,000,000 but they still only pay$12 rent |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
234
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 08:54:30 -
[5535] - Quote
Doddy your concept of subs equaling skill points and everything you say would be correct if CCP allowed you to sell your character anywhere for real life currency - but they don't.
Your subs only equal time, How much time you can invest in actually playing in those 30 days. You don't own anything in the game from the name through skill points to the titan you maybe flying.
Think of it like going on vacation, car hire / lodge in aspen. You hire the car (Subs) going to take you 3 days to drive there (the ship you want to fly / your goal) You arrive and its holiday time ( the reward / your now flying it).
At the end of it you don't own the car or the lodge you used, you have the memory's of it ( Time ) but nothing else.
It's exactly the same for the bazaar, all you have to sell is your time investment, CCP own everything your just being allowed to move their property from A to B at a set price (Plex) and being compensated for your time investment with Isk.
This is why the selling of skill points goes against what CCP stated :
"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "
CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05
Until now every single thing in game is about time invested, This corrupts the whole philosophy of that principle.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
154
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 12:55:59 -
[5536] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: There are so many ways you could improve the game to make it new player friendly .
You are so friendly and kind person that I can't express my feelings...
Pinky Bear
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 15:59:40 -
[5537] - Quote
This exploration is really great stuff.
I think it took too long and the can exploded.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
BirdStrike
State War Academy Caldari State
134
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 22:06:00 -
[5538] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:This exploration is really great stuff.
I think it took too long and the can exploded.
Thanks for sharing. |
Dosperado
Denial of Service Freelancer Coalition
59
|
Posted - 2015.11.08 11:30:23 -
[5539] - Quote
Please please delete this Dev blog asap and all your ideas with it.
If you are ever going to implement that crap I am going to put my 265mil SP char directly into BIOMASS!!
So sad that EvE is constantly drifting into the wrong direction....
EVE Veteran
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
195
|
Posted - 2015.11.08 14:11:51 -
[5540] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:
P.S. Funny thing is that outsiders(disabled people) terrifying regular sportsmans because sportsmans could be outcompeted by disabled one. Disabled is not so disabled ...
But they are disqualified. That was my point :) Regarding API, as I said it could be done that injected SP does not calculate in total SP. Still that would cover only one of the concerns, more important ones are still there. Don ZOLA wrote:You do not have to invalidate them. Maybe you will come up with one counter argument which would make me change a part of my opinion. You have too many concerns maybe because you are on wrong side or maybe because you looking too deep into depth and found no light for yourselfe.
Thanks for proving that you are nothing but the troll.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
154
|
Posted - 2015.11.08 16:35:40 -
[5541] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: Thanks for proving that you are nothing but the troll.
If I was nothing but a troll than all my posts were be erased. I could understand why you angry at me. By same reason why you ignoring that post
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: But they are disqualified. That was my point :)
You should to watch Or/and because of this post Discrediting source. Petty smart but I already admited that some my posts were erased and yet still you talked to me. Your behavior is the way to excuse yourself.
Pinky Bear
|
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2015.11.08 19:31:20 -
[5542] - Quote
When will this Skills Trading function become available? (On the Tranquility server that is, as if I was talking about the other test server, not.) |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
196
|
Posted - 2015.11.08 19:52:25 -
[5543] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: Thanks for proving that you are nothing but the troll.
Quote:Don't talk like one of them, you're not If I was nothing but a troll than all my posts were be erased. I could understand why you angry at me. By same reason why you ignoring that post General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: But they are disqualified. That was my point :)
You should to watch Discrediting source... Petty smart but I already admited that some of my posts were erased and yet still you talked to me. Your behavior is way to excuse yourself for the mistake.
Give them some more time to handle it ;)
You flatter yourself too much. I have no reason to be angry on you, if I was such person that gets angry on any trolling post or person then I would already be in some sanatorium.
Regarding your Oscar Pistorious post, it truly resembles your way of posting here. Ie taking things out of context and then pushing on it. Oscar Pistorious was allowed to run on London Olympic games. And even that Olympic games were exception. Considering crimes he did / did not commit I doubt we will see him there ever again anyway. And not many other paralympics will have money/power to be able to get there.
"At the moment, the IAAF is treating Pistorius as a unique case and has not set a global ruling. If/when one is set, there needs to be criteria set in place for the prostheses allowed. However, because the running style is so different, and the energy required is different, how this is decided is completely unknown. I cannot foresee an easy answer to what should and what shouldnGÇÖt be accepted."
And again, this is ONLY for olympic games. And again, still not comparable to eve, because with your analogy everyone would have to have equal number of sp in order to not be "behind" anyone else. Seems you and Dror have a great wish to make it counter strike like game... Thanks for insisting on answering your post which I have not even seen so I could prove you are wrong again. You are doing great impersonation of Dave :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
154
|
Posted - 2015.11.08 21:22:53 -
[5544] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:And even that Olympic games were exception. You saying "exception". I'm saying that was a precedent.
Don ZOLA wrote:with your analogy everyone would have to have equal number of sp in order to not be "behind" anyone else. "just giving more in depth to your suggestions"? Do you know what does it mean reductio ad absurdum? Someone on your side thinks that it is bad practic.
Don ZOLA wrote:I could prove you are wrong again.
Yea, I rember that case...
General Lootit wrote: You are nice man to talk with =)
I'm feel really sorry for misleading you.
Pinky Bear
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
196
|
Posted - 2015.11.08 21:29:27 -
[5545] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:And even that Olympic games were exception. You saying "exception". I'm saying that was a precedent. Don ZOLA wrote:with your analogy everyone would have to have equal number of sp in order to not be "behind" anyone else. "just giving more in depth to your suggestions"? Do you know what is it mean reductio ad absurdum? Someone on your side thinks that it is bad practic. Don ZOLA wrote:I could prove you are wrong again.
Yea, I rember that case... General Lootit wrote: You are nice man to talk with =)
I was wrong and I'm feel really sorry for that.
I am indeed nice, until I think you are a troll or something similar ;)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
154
|
Posted - 2015.11.08 21:40:20 -
[5546] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: I am indeed nice, until I think you are a troll or something similar ;)
I already heard it somewhere. You can't be a second Hulk.
Pinky Bear
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4102
|
Posted - 2015.11.08 21:56:11 -
[5547] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:(...)
This is why the selling of skill points goes against what CCP stated :
"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "
CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05
Until now every single thing in game is about time invested, This corrupts the whole philosophy of that principle.
(...)
Probably CCP is planning to shift from an access monetization model to an activity monetization model.
When players do more things ingame than they log in, either you improve how many players log in or you monetize what they do.
And frankly, CCP's chances to improve subscriptions are scarce. They don't have any plans to call in new players with some groundbreaking feature that could enable them to start from zero and in equal terms to the veteran players. Even the new content will be added to the end of endgame content, requiring alliances/structures/nullsec/ PvP and what the hell to as much as consider moving into that new space, whatever it is. Also, EVE has been cutting through the same niche for 12 years.
And all in all since CCP failed so horribly to understand that the average subscriber used to be a highsec PvEr, and those players are just leaving the game, CCP as a company don't have many options.
They rely on access monetization, but they're running out of customers willing to access the game for a fee.
They also have added customization monetization, but that is related to how many people play the game. Less players mean less need to one-time sells of cosmetic items.
So what's left to sell and monetize?
Ingame activity. The things you do, which are effectively locked behind a time-controled skillpoint barrier. You need to pay access for t game time in order to have the skills to fly that ship or use that module.
But what if you can just buy those skills? Not from a void, but from the existing 12 years long pool, to protect the skillpoint market, at least initially.
Then, what CCP does is to charge you for what you do. Activity monetization.
And once they're charging players for something they do (fly a ship for money rather than time), sky is the limit. They can charge players for absolutely anything locked behind the skillpoint barrier.
For an instance, CCP a may charge them for any skillpoints, and give them skillpoints for free if they pay a subscription ("Premium" skillpoints).
Thus there is no need to charge them for access. That, of course, calls in every player interested in EVE but not interested in paying months of subscription to "fly the cool stuff".
Skillpoints still would be a barrier. And players still could grind their way to lift it for time (grind ISK, buy skillpoints).
To us the old farts, it is very simple.
Either we stick with EVE F2P or give up all we did for those subscriptions and the effort behind them. The money we paid to CCP? Thanks for it. Now we can sell the SP to lift the ISK access barrier, if that bothers us much.
CCP is a company. They've painted themselves in a corner and the only way out is a "freemium" model with skillpoints being the bonus for subscription and the barrier to limit what a player can achieve by paying.
Then numbers will rise up, old players will get lots of PvP targets and customization monetization also increases when whales (there's always whales in F2P) feel they need to fly every ship and SKIN it in every possible way. That's in the thousands of dollars even with the current stock of the NES.
So now that CCP is moving in that direction, what are you going to do when EVE goes Free to Play, for the future well of CCP?
I... I think I will keep playing the game. Having lots of people around could prove interesting. Yes, some will be the usual freetoplayaidscancerkids. But some will stick longer and love this old wh0re for what she is, no matter how you pay her services.
(But oh I will feel SO stupid about all those thousands of euros in subscriptions...)
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1615
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 00:27:03 -
[5548] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:(...)
This is why the selling of skill points goes against what CCP stated :
"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "
CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05
Until now every single thing in game is about time invested, This corrupts the whole philosophy of that principle.
(...) Probably CCP is planning to shift from an access monetization model to an activity monetization model. When players do more things ingame than they log in, either you improve how many players log in or you monetize what they do. And frankly, CCP's chances to improve subscriptions are scarce. They don't have any plans to call in new players with some groundbreaking feature that could enable them to start from zero and in equal terms to the veteran players. Even the new content will be added to the end of endgame content, requiring alliances/structures/nullsec/ PvP and what the hell to as much as consider moving into that new space, whatever it is. Also, EVE has been cutting through the same niche for 12 years. And all in all since CCP failed so horribly to understand that the average subscriber used to be a highsec PvEr, and those players are just leaving the game, CCP as a company don't have many options. They rely on access monetization, but they're running out of customers willing to access the game for a fee. They also have added customization monetization, but that is related to how many people play the game. Less players mean less need to one-time sells of cosmetic items. So what's left to sell and monetize? Ingame activity. The things you do, which are effectively locked behind a time-controled skillpoint barrier. You need to pay access for t game time in order to have the skills to fly that ship or use that module. But what if you can just buy those skills? Not from a void, but from the existing 12 years long pool, to protect the skillpoint market, at least initially. Then, what CCP does is to charge you for what you do. Activity monetization. And once they're charging players for something they do (fly a ship for money rather than time), sky is the limit. They can charge players for absolutely anything locked behind the skillpoint barrier. For an instance, CCP a may charge them for any skillpoints, and give them skillpoints for free if they pay a subscription ("Premium" skillpoints). Thus there is no need to charge them for access. That, of course, calls in every player interested in EVE but not interested in paying months of subscription to "fly the cool stuff". Skillpoints still would be a barrier. And players still could grind their way to lift it for time (grind ISK, buy skillpoints). To us the old farts, it is very simple. Either we stick with EVE F2P or give up all we did for those subscriptions and the effort behind them. The money we paid to CCP? Thanks for it. Now we can sell the SP to lift the ISK access barrier, if that bothers us much. CCP is a company. They've painted themselves in a corner and the only way out is a "freemium" model with skillpoints being the bonus for subscription and the barrier to limit what a player can achieve by paying. Then numbers will rise up, old players will get lots of PvP targets and customization monetization also increases when whales (there's always whales in F2P) feel they need to fly every ship and SKIN it in every possible way. That's in the thousands of dollars even with the current stock of the NES. So now that CCP is moving in that direction, what are you going to do when EVE goes Free to Play, for the future well of CCP? I... I think I will keep playing the game. Having lots of people around could prove interesting. Yes, some will be the usual freetoplayaidscancerkids. But some will stick longer and love this old wh0re for what she is, no matter how you pay her services. (But oh I will feel SO stupid about all those thousands of euros in subscriptions...)
That's a whole lot of nonsense you typed there, with an obvious bias and a (not so) hidden agenda.
EVE has been doing fine, it started to go wrong when CCP DID start focussing on making EVE more idiot/PVE friendly. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4102
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 07:54:38 -
[5549] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:(...)
This is why the selling of skill points goes against what CCP stated :
"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "
CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05
Until now every single thing in game is about time invested, This corrupts the whole philosophy of that principle.
(...) Probably CCP is planning to shift from an access monetization model to an activity monetization model. When players do more things ingame than they log in, either you improve how many players log in or you monetize what they do. And frankly, CCP's chances to improve subscriptions are scarce. They don't have any plans to call in new players with some groundbreaking feature that could enable them to start from zero and in equal terms to the veteran players. Even the new content will be added to the end of endgame content, requiring alliances/structures/nullsec/ PvP and what the hell to as much as consider moving into that new space, whatever it is. Also, EVE has been cutting through the same niche for 12 years. And all in all since CCP failed so horribly to understand that the average subscriber used to be a highsec PvEr, and those players are just leaving the game, CCP as a company don't have many options. They rely on access monetization, but they're running out of customers willing to access the game for a fee. They also have added customization monetization, but that is related to how many people play the game. Less players mean less need to one-time sells of cosmetic items. So what's left to sell and monetize? Ingame activity. The things you do, which are effectively locked behind a time-controled skillpoint barrier. You need to pay access for t game time in order to have the skills to fly that ship or use that module. But what if you can just buy those skills? Not from a void, but from the existing 12 years long pool, to protect the skillpoint market, at least initially. Then, what CCP does is to charge you for what you do. Activity monetization. And once they're charging players for something they do (fly a ship for money rather than time), sky is the limit. They can charge players for absolutely anything locked behind the skillpoint barrier. For an instance, CCP a may charge them for any skillpoints, and give them skillpoints for free if they pay a subscription ("Premium" skillpoints). Thus there is no need to charge them for access. That, of course, calls in every player interested in EVE but not interested in paying months of subscription to "fly the cool stuff". Skillpoints still would be a barrier. And players still could grind their way to lift it for time (grind ISK, buy skillpoints). To us the old farts, it is very simple. Either we stick with EVE F2P or give up all we did for those subscriptions and the effort behind them. The money we paid to CCP? Thanks for it. Now we can sell the SP to lift the ISK access barrier, if that bothers us much. CCP is a company. They've painted themselves in a corner and the only way out is a "freemium" model with skillpoints being the bonus for subscription and the barrier to limit what a player can achieve by paying. Then numbers will rise up, old players will get lots of PvP targets and customization monetization also increases when whales (there's always whales in F2P) feel they need to fly every ship and SKIN it in every possible way. That's in the thousands of dollars even with the current stock of the NES. So now that CCP is moving in that direction, what are you going to do when EVE goes Free to Play, for the future well of CCP? I... I think I will keep playing the game. Having lots of people around could prove interesting. Yes, some will be the usual freetoplayaidscancerkids. But some will stick longer and love this old wh0re for what she is, no matter how you pay her services. (But oh I will feel SO stupid about all those thousands of euros in subscriptions...) That's a whole lot of nonsense you typed there, with an obvious bias and a (not so) hidden agenda. EVE has been doing fine, it started to go wrong when CCP DID start focussing on making EVE more idiot/PVE friendly.
The cool thing about reality is that it is inmune to denial and ignorance. You don't know and don't want to know. But facts are there.
CCP is preparing Tranquility to handle hundreds of thousands of players online. When shown the dwindling population, their answer is that activity is on the rise so things are not going bad.
As I stated, CCP charges for login. But activity is doing better than logins, so what could they do to monetize what goes well (activity) over what goes bad (logins)?
This thread is about the beginning of charging players for their activity rather than for their login.
You should figure what road is this and where does it lead to.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
239
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 10:27:00 -
[5550] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:That's a whole lot of nonsense you typed there, with an obvious bias and a (not so) hidden agenda. EVE has been doing fine, it started to go wrong when CCP DID start focussing on making EVE more idiot/PVE friendly. I would say it does give food for thought , nothing hidden in what was said either. Investing in hardware that far exceeds the needs of what was a PCU of over 65,000 which is now a good 45% lower. I dont see much change in the PVE side, They have on the other hand made a pig's ear of the sov changes and jump fatigue which does affect PVP.
Then you give the ( you say idiot ) clueless new player the ability to buy his way into the game whats going happen - Ganked. We all know where that leads new players.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4102
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 14:21:12 -
[5551] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:That's a whole lot of nonsense you typed there, with an obvious bias and a (not so) hidden agenda. EVE has been doing fine, it started to go wrong when CCP DID start focussing on making EVE more idiot/PVE friendly. I would say it does give food for thought , nothing hidden in what was said either. Investing in hardware that far exceeds the needs of what was a PCU of over 65,000 which is now a good 45% lower. I dont see much change in the PVE side, They have on the other hand made a pig's ear of the sov changes and jump fatigue which does affect PVP. Then you give the ( you say idiot ) clueless new player the ability to buy his way into the game whats going happen - Ganked. We all know where that leads new players.
On the hardware part, TQ2 haves a theorical maximum of 220,000 players online, based on the performance of Sol system (the synchronization core that updates the server at 1 Hz frequency). Anyway the old code for the Dogma system probably would had put the server in full TiDi well below that number of players.
As for TQ3, we don't know the maximum population sustainable by it, but the hardware is far bigger and more powerful than TQ2 and can handle lots more of players in every sense.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
185
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 14:54:33 -
[5552] - Quote
Doddy wrote: A character is just a container of sp,
Bullshit |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
23
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 18:07:26 -
[5553] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:That's a whole lot of nonsense you typed there, with an obvious bias and a (not so) hidden agenda. EVE has been doing fine, it started to go wrong when CCP DID start focussing on making EVE more idiot/PVE friendly. I would say it does give food for thought , nothing hidden in what was said either. Investing in hardware that far exceeds the needs of what was a PCU of over 65,000 which is now a good 45% lower. I dont see much change in the PVE side, They have on the other hand made a pig's ear of the sov changes and jump fatigue which does affect PVP. Then you give the ( you say idiot ) clueless new player the ability to buy his way into the game whats going happen - Ganked. We all know where that leads new players.
I'm inclined to agree with the post that replied with "That's a whole lot of nonsense you typed there"
There is no way activity can be doing better than logins as stated - Because Activity = Logins
do you think they have a secret way of doing something in game without using the login?.
*****
The concept of MMO financial models used is a little off:-
MMO Free to Play models are biased towards using the PvE content as the main form of monetization - SWTOR, LOTRO, Never-winter-nights etc, Once the PVE is state or completed the churn rate is typically much higher than games using PvP as the core function - The PvE of any of the games mentioned is superior to EVE but culminates in a mediocre (or bad) pvp experience.
The typical route for increased microtransactions in MMo's based on PvP - Is pay to win - Typically selling items with the specific purpose of winning - I.e Gold ammo in World of Tanks being an fine example, Guild Wars power-ups.
I not sure if in the future you wouldn't see something over powerful introduced just because of the high potential of profit
Buy a "Doomsday Shield" for 4800 Aurum or $24 would make a lot of cash |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 19:04:30 -
[5554] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:I'm inclined to agree with the post that replied with "That's a whole lot of nonsense you typed there"
There is no way activity can be doing better than logins as stated - Because Activity = Logins
do you think they have a secret way of doing something in game without using the login?. People did say you should be forced to log in and cloak up in order to watch your pos, station, etc constantly. Remember siphons?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
239
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 19:32:12 -
[5555] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:MMO Free to Play models are biased towards using the PvE content as the main form of monetization - SWTOR, LOTRO, Never-winter-nights etc, Once the PVE is state or completed the churn rate is typically much higher than games using PvP as the core function - The PvE of any of the games mentioned is superior to EVE but culminates in a mediocre (or bad) pvp experience. Thats not strictly true, look at innogames with their grepolis,TW2 and the likes. Sandbox no pve you build your towns and upgrade them whilst building troops - The only action in those games is provided by all the other suckers who join - whoever thought of that idea must be laughing all the way to the bank. The only content is provided by the hordes coming for the freeplay
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
4104
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 20:15:27 -
[5556] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:That's a whole lot of nonsense you typed there, with an obvious bias and a (not so) hidden agenda. EVE has been doing fine, it started to go wrong when CCP DID start focussing on making EVE more idiot/PVE friendly. I would say it does give food for thought , nothing hidden in what was said either. Investing in hardware that far exceeds the needs of what was a PCU of over 65,000 which is now a good 45% lower. I dont see much change in the PVE side, They have on the other hand made a pig's ear of the sov changes and jump fatigue which does affect PVP. Then you give the ( you say idiot ) clueless new player the ability to buy his way into the game whats going happen - Ganked. We all know where that leads new players. I'm inclined to agree with the post that replied with "That's a whole lot of nonsense you typed there" There is no way activity can be doing better than logins as stated - Because Activity = Logins do you think they have a secret way of doing something in game without using the login?.
I think you missed the point.
Now you pay for login and don't need to pay to do things ingame.
But CCP is changing that so you can pay to do things ingame.
The next logical step is allow free login and charge for what you do ingame. With that you get lots of new logins, which is something CCP can't achieve in its current situation. Logins feed activity and monetized activity feeds the wallet.
It's a win proposition... with a catch. I will let the smart guys here figure what's the catch.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
23
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 21:34:15 -
[5557] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:That's a whole lot of nonsense you typed there, with an obvious bias and a (not so) hidden agenda. EVE has been doing fine, it started to go wrong when CCP DID start focussing on making EVE more idiot/PVE friendly. I would say it does give food for thought , nothing hidden in what was said either. Investing in hardware that far exceeds the needs of what was a PCU of over 65,000 which is now a good 45% lower. I dont see much change in the PVE side, They have on the other hand made a pig's ear of the sov changes and jump fatigue which does affect PVP. Then you give the ( you say idiot ) clueless new player the ability to buy his way into the game whats going happen - Ganked. We all know where that leads new players. I'm inclined to agree with the post that replied with "That's a whole lot of nonsense you typed there" There is no way activity can be doing better than logins as stated - Because Activity = Logins do you think they have a secret way of doing something in game without using the login?. I think you missed the point. Now you pay for login and don't need to pay to do things ingame. But CCP is changing that so you can pay to do things ingame. The next logical step is allow free login and charge for what you do ingame. With that you get lots of new logins, which is something CCP can't achieve in its current situation. Logins feed activity and monetized activity feeds the wallet. It's a win proposition... with a catch. I will let the smart guys here figure what's the catch.
The first introduction of a pay to win item didn't require the need to pay to do things "in game" it just increased CCP's returns on registered accounts.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1708
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 22:55:30 -
[5558] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:I think you missed the point.
Now you pay for login and don't need to pay to do things ingame.
But CCP is changing that so you can pay to do things ingame.
The next logical step is allow free login and charge for what you do ingame. With that you get lots of new logins, which is something CCP can't achieve in its current situation. Logins feed activity and monetized activity feeds the wallet.
It's a win proposition... with a catch. I will let the smart guys here figure what's the catch. If this line of reasoning is in regard to this idea specifically I'm not seeing how it's true.
Training goes hand in hand with access to the game at the moment, and if SP trading is implemented it will continue to do so, but also allow trade of that game access privilege for isk. It becomes like PLEX in that respect.
That doesn't equate to charging for things to do in game. The things that can be done aren't payment gated. Some are SP gated, but we already have ways around that, whether one thinks them equivalent or not.
Thus free login isn't really a logical step since the only thing being sold is still the same type of access that has always been sold and the functions linked with it. We're just looking at decoupling one of those privileges from the current explicit character relationship while CCP takes their cut of the transfer cost, same as other game time transfer methods. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
23
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 03:05:05 -
[5559] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:I think you missed the point.
Now you pay for login and don't need to pay to do things ingame.
But CCP is changing that so you can pay to do things ingame.
The next logical step is allow free login and charge for what you do ingame. With that you get lots of new logins, which is something CCP can't achieve in its current situation. Logins feed activity and monetized activity feeds the wallet.
It's a win proposition... with a catch. I will let the smart guys here figure what's the catch. If this line of reasoning is in regard to this idea specifically I'm not seeing how it's true. Training goes hand in hand with access to the game at the moment, and if SP trading is implemented it will continue to do so, but also allow trade of that game access privilege for isk. It becomes like PLEX in that respect. That doesn't equate to charging for things to do in game. The things that can be done aren't payment gated. Some are SP gated, but we already have ways around that, whether one thinks them equivalent or not. Thus free login isn't really a logical step since the only thing being sold is still the same type of access that has always been sold and the functions linked with it. We're just looking at decoupling one of those privileges from the current explicit character relationship while CCP takes their cut of the transfer cost, same as other game time transfer methods.
Lets be clear on this - SP trading is an UNLIMITED pay to win system - The previously introduced pay to win item (Duel Training Certificate) can only used 2 time per account per month - SP trading allows for as many transactions as you can afford
At present the maximum I can pay for advantage over other players is 2 plex or $24 - If you have a pot of isk you can now buy victory - the limiting factor is how much you are prepared to spend
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1708
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 03:32:47 -
[5560] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Lets be clear on this - SP trading is an UNLIMITED pay to win system - The previously introduced pay to win item (Duel Training Certificate) can only used 2 time per account per month - SP trading allows for as many transactions as you can afford
At present the maximum I can pay for advantage over other players is 2 plex or $24 - If you have a pot of isk you can now buy victory - the limiting factor is how much you are prepared to spend We should at some point probably clear up the apparent perception that SP = winning. If that was the case we late comers lost by not entering the game in 2003.
Second, 2/month/account with no limit on accounts holdable, meaning the number consumable is again only capped by the amount of money or isk someone wants to throw at it, granted with a much lower bar of desirability.
Character buying bypasses your limit as well. I can acquire SP as fast as I'm willing to spend to get them (differences/limitations aside the core effect is the same).
And there is actually a limit to the system, though that limit is likely going to go up significantly if this is implemented. That limit is the SP produced by subscribed accounts that the subscriber is willing to part with.
But most importantly, it's not even pay to win, it's play to win really. The packets trade in isk. Isk being earned in game is the backbone of the system. PLEX can be used, but only as something to barter for isk, and even then only from those that gathered it. PLEX can't even be used directly as PLEX > AUR only gives the capacity to extract SP.
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
23
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 03:56:36 -
[5561] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Lets be clear on this - SP trading is an UNLIMITED pay to win system - The previously introduced pay to win item (Duel Training Certificate) can only used 2 time per account per month - SP trading allows for as many transactions as you can afford
At present the maximum I can pay for advantage over other players is 2 plex or $24 - If you have a pot of isk you can now buy victory - the limiting factor is how much you are prepared to spend We should at some point probably clear up the apparent perception that SP = winning. If that was the case we late comers lost by not entering the game in 2003. Second, 2/month/account with no limit on accounts holdable, meaning the number consumable is again only capped by the amount of money or isk someone wants to throw at it, granted with a much lower bar of desirability. Character buying bypasses your limit as well. I can acquire SP as fast as I'm willing to spend to get them (differences/limitations aside the core effect is the same). And there is actually a limit to the system, though that limit is likely going to go up significantly if this is implemented. That limit is the SP produced by subscribed accounts that the subscriber is willing to part with. But most importantly, it's not even pay to win, it's play to win really. The packets trade in isk. Isk being earned in game is the backbone of the system. PLEX can be used, but only as something to barter for isk, and even then only from those that gathered it. PLEX can't even be used directly as PLEX > AUR only gives the capacity to extract SP.
Please feel to hop onto the character bazaar and buy 10 Titan pilots, 20 Supers and 20 carrier pilots - Oh that's right you can't as they are a rare commodity ... However I'm sure there are plenty pilots out there 12 to 36 months away from any of the above that would love to jump into one very quickly
The Plex to isk system mean you can buy anything you want and can afford - It removes the rarity of end game ships - the only limiting factor is SP
As for the safeguard of subscribed being the SP limit - didn't you say you can have unlimited accounts
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1708
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 04:20:01 -
[5562] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Please feel to hop onto the character bazaar and buy 10 Titan pilots, 20 Supers and 20 carrier pilots - Oh that's right you can't as they are a rare commodity ... However I'm sure there are plenty pilots out there 12 to 36 months away from any of the above that would love to jump into one very quickly
The Plex to isk system mean you can buy anything you want and can afford - It removes the rarity of end game ships - the only limiting factor is SP I'm sure some would like to, would there be sufficient SP to get them all there available? If you treat this like an resource that is infinite at any specific point in time then sure, it looks like an issue (but still isn't as SP != winning anyways), but they still have every other demand for SP to compete with for whatever SP exists in tradable form at that point in time.
Also no, PLEX doesn't bring end game ships into existence in any way shape or form. The means to create "end game" ships comes purely from game play. No amount of isk allows you to buy something that doesn't exist to be bought, and if it can be bought it already existed, thus rarity is in no way linked to PLEX.
Not to mention the entire principle the thought is based on is flawed. There should be no need for ships to remain limited by SP gating to assure rarity to begin with. It's obviously not a lasting solution (how rare are those super pilots after that 12 to 36 months?). Rarity should be a function of usefulness and weaknesses for anything with a means to be reproduced.
Iowa Banshee wrote:As for the safeguard of subscribed being the SP limit - didn't you say you can have unlimited accounts Yeah, but until you literally do have unlimited accounts you have limited SP. So I guess if we're counting theoretical infinite spenders we have a loophole of sorts. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
23
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 05:06:11 -
[5563] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Please feel to hop onto the character bazaar and buy 10 Titan pilots, 20 Supers and 20 carrier pilots - Oh that's right you can't as they are a rare commodity ... However I'm sure there are plenty pilots out there 12 to 36 months away from any of the above that would love to jump into one very quickly
The Plex to isk system mean you can buy anything you want and can afford - It removes the rarity of end game ships - the only limiting factor is SP I'm sure some would like to, would there be sufficient SP to get them all there available? If you treat this like an resource that is infinite at any specific point in time then sure, it looks like an issue (but still isn't as SP != winning anyways), but they still have every other demand for SP to compete with for whatever SP exists in tradable form at that point in time. Also no, PLEX doesn't bring end game ships into existence in any way shape or form. The means to create "end game" ships comes purely from game play. No amount of isk allows you to buy something that doesn't exist to be bought, and if it can be bought it already existed, thus rarity is in no way linked to PLEX. Not to mention the entire principle the thought is based on is flawed. There should be no need for ships to remain limited by SP gating to assure rarity to begin with. It's obviously not a lasting solution (how rare are those super pilots after that 12 to 36 months?). Rarity should be a function of usefulness and weaknesses for anything with a means to be reproduced. Iowa Banshee wrote:As for the safeguard of subscribed being the SP limit - didn't you say you can have unlimited accounts Yeah, but until you literally do have unlimited accounts you have limited SP. So I guess if we're counting theoretical infinite spenders we have a loophole of sorts.
All this talk of buy from the Bazaar & Unlimited accounts is just a red herring - s Unlimited Account does not mean unlimited SP for a Character Unlimited ISK does not mean unlimited SP for a Character Unlimited RL money does not mean Unlimited SP for a Character
SP trading allows for Unlimited SP for a character
Time investment is the limiting factor - If you remove the tie a Character has to his SP you remove the last obstacle pure Pay To Win.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1708
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 05:13:14 -
[5564] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:All this talk of buy from the Bazaar & Unlimited accounts is just a red herring - s Unlimited Account does not mean unlimited SP for a Character Unlimited ISK does not mean unlimited SP for a Character Unlimited RL money does not mean Unlimited SP for a Character
SP trading allows for Unlimited SP for a character
Time investment is the limiting factor - If you remove the tie a Character has to his SP you remove the last obstacle pure Pay To Win. No, that's just a factual falsehood that you created. Demonstrably so.
Simply put, only a certain amount of SP exists, even if all that SP was placed into a single character and every other character used to generate SP solely for transfer to that character it still doesn't become unlimited.
Not character linked? Sure, but no one is arguing that.
Actually unlimited over time? Yes, but then every other method you mentioned generates unlimited SP as well.
Pay to win? No, as SP != winning and people can't buy SP for cash even if it was. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26049
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 06:30:39 -
[5565] - Quote
This feature has been proposed as a way to help the new player. Without the ability to play the game well, SP does not confer victory. On this, we both agree.
However, let's look at ways in which SP is winning:
1. Flexibility in fitting (choice of modules) 2. Flexibility in ships you can fly 3. Making tighter fits 4. With two players of equal ability, victory favors higher SP
Now think about what #1, #2, and #3 does in large groups.
If you don't think the game stagnates because of the increasing gap betweens the haves and have-nots, this feature will arm large, wealthy groups with another tool that widens the gap between them and anyone who's not them.
Making a general statement like "SP isn't winning" and applying that to all aspects of EVE is a disingenuous argument. Of course SP confers an in-game advantage. This is why we are all skilling, and this is why this thread doesn't end.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26049
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 06:37:29 -
[5566] - Quote
And again, the difference between Bazaar and SP trading is this:
With the Bazaar, an IRL rich player still depends on the availability of high SP characters which is controlled by other players. High SP characters are not available in all favorable combinations of skill specialties, character histories, and so on. Availability is limited and SP is split up amongst multiple characters.
With SP Trading, an IRL rich player is only restricted by the size of his wallet. Other players and their choices no longer factor into how many SP can be gained. All of the SP can freely be voltron-ed into a single character.
People arguing that these two mechanisms are functionally equivalent are engaging in intellectual dishonesty.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1708
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 07:14:13 -
[5567] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:This feature has been proposed as a way to help the new player. Without the ability to play the game well, SP does not confer victory. On this, we both agree.
However, let's look at ways in which SP is winning:
1. Flexibility in fitting (choice of modules) 2. Flexibility in ships you can fly 3. Making tighter fits 4. With two players of equal ability, victory favors higher SP
Now think about what #1, #2, and #3 does in large groups.
If you don't think the game stagnates because of the increasing gap betweens the haves and have-nots, this feature will arm large, wealthy groups with another tool that widens the gap between them and anyone who's not them.
Making a general statement like "SP isn't winning" and applying that to all aspects of EVE is a disingenuous argument. Of course SP confers an in-game advantage. This is why we are all skilling, and this is why this thread doesn't end. If SP didn't confer advantages this conversation wouldn't be here as you state. That isn't being disputed. What is being disputed is that:
a) The only way to obtain this advantage should be through tenure b) Once conveyed they should be immutable, even if loss would be involved otherwise c) Trading these advantages should require whole character transfers and the significant investment this entails d) These advantages are fair to characterize as "winning" and e) The ability to sell or trade SP between players for in game currency is therefore fair to characterize as pay to win
I'm not sure the issues with large groups. Those entities are most likely to a) have access to high SP players unless specifically new player oriented and b) be able to mitigate SP inefficiencies through numbers, reducing the noteworthiness of any individuals performance gains.
The statement that SP isn't winning, when in the face of the even more disingenuous "this is P2W" argument is really just a less wordy version of "conveying an advantage created by players and traded between them on their terms doesn't constitute a pay for advantage from CCP equivalency or insurmountable or unfair barrier for those that chose or have chosen to train normally"
I just don't feel like typing that all out every time someone says "P2W."
Sibyyl wrote:And again, the difference between Bazaar and SP trading is this:
With the Bazaar, an IRL rich player still depends on the availability of high SP characters which is controlled by other players. High SP characters are not available in all favorable combinations of skill specialties, character histories, and so on. Availability is limited and SP is split up amongst multiple characters.
With SP Trading, an IRL rich player is only restricted by the size of his wallet. Other players and their choices no longer factor into how many SP can be gained. All of the SP can freely be voltron-ed into a single character.
People arguing that these two mechanisms are functionally equivalent are engaging in intellectual dishonesty. The 2 are fundamentally equivalent for the purposes of those that use them, even if not completely so.
But the core objection here, that there is no financial constraint seems like a non-issue unless we're going back to the explicit relationship between SP and winning, not the considerably more accurate and subjective measure of SP conveying advantages or options.
With caps existing for both of those, performance and options, there will always be a cap to what someone can buy with any specific tool set and again for the complete tool set. They can't pull further ahead than the skill system supports and no amount of investment can change that.
So we have a system that naturally caps abuse at lvl V, gets exponentially more expensive as approaching that level in 2 ways (sp/lvl approaching V and packet returns as total SP increases), and is likely a very rare case causing little to no actual effect on the game as a whole.
That there are differences is a fact, that they are meaningful and even pointed in the proper direction (IE: vets selling the negative rep they've earned to new players) isn't so factual, in my opinion anyways. |
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1354
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 07:14:31 -
[5568] - Quote
I have removed some troll/off-topic/disrespectful posts and those quoting them.
Quote:2. Be respectful toward others at all times.
The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.
3. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26049
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 07:26:53 -
[5569] - Quote
Hey Tyberius, good to hook up with you again.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:What is being disputed is that:
a) The only way to obtain this advantage should be through tenure b) Once conveyed they should be immutable, even if loss would be involved otherwise c) Trading these advantages should require whole character transfers and the significant investment this entails d) These advantages are fair to characterize as "winning" and e) The ability to sell or trade SP between players for in game currency is therefore fair to characterize as pay to win
As yours is not the incumbent mechanic, it's up to you to argue why you think the fundamental process of the game should be turned on its head. I just demonstrated how the stated purpose (ie: helping new players) is actually backwards. It helps experienced players more than new players, and it helps create a wider SP gap instead of narrowing it.
Quote:I'm not sure the issues with large groups. Those entities are most likely to a) have access to high SP players unless specifically new player oriented and b) be able to mitigate SP inefficiencies through numbers, reducing the noteworthiness of any individuals performance gains. The issue is simply this.
1. Big groups do not today hand out free characters to their newbros. 2. Big groups will hand out free SP to their newbros.
Fleet comps, flexibility, tighter fits, meta modules, you name it. All of these increase the gap between a successful group and an unsuccessful one. This mechanism favors the wealthy. Big groups are wealthy.
Quote:The statement that SP isn't winning, when in the face of the even more disingenuous "this is P2W" argument is really just a less wordy version of "conveying an advantage created by players and traded between them on their terms doesn't constitute a pay for advantage from CCP equivalency or insurmountable barrier for those that chose or have chosen to train normally" Pay to win means there is nothing a person without IRL riches can do to achieve the same thing as an IRL rich person.
There is a pay to win mechanism existent today, the Character Bazaar. But Character Bazaar is a necessary evil to prevent RMT via un-preventable account transfers if Character Bazaar didn't exist.
SP Trading not only does not prevent RMT, it introduces a new RMT mechanism untraceable by CCP's current infrastructure (hey, please prove me wrong but I've yet to hear back on this). Why would you introduce a pay to win mechanism if it's not there to prevent RMT?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1708
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 07:49:14 -
[5570] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Hey Tyberius, good to hook up with you again. Indeed.
Quote:As yours is not the incumbent mechanic, it's up to you to argue why you think the fundamental process of the game should be turned on its head. I just demonstrated how the stated purpose (ie: helping new players) is actually backwards. It helps experienced players more than new players, and it helps create a wider SP gap instead of narrowing it. Well, actually, you demonstrated one way in which it did help new players. Recruitment benefits. Or more generally, the desire for older players to use their resources to help new players for mutual gain. Further, even that aside the proposed means puts gaining SP in a much more new player friendly package in terms of obtainability through cost (though I'd granulate further) and retaining of the players personally crafted identity.
This also builds actual attachment to reputation for old and new players rather than just seeking the most capable bundle of SP or liquidating past indiscretions for isk.
Quote:The issue is simply this.
1. Big groups do not today hand out free characters to their newbros. 2. Big groups will hand out free SP to their newbros.
Fleet comps, flexibility, tighter fits, meta modules, you name it. All of these increase the gap between a successful group and an unsuccessful one. This mechanism favors the wealthy. Big groups are wealthy. As stated above, that's actually a new player benefit. Performance wise all of that gets minimized in the intended use case for large groups as stated in the prior post. But also, it creates another incentive for infiltration and other forms of insidious gameplay.
Quote:Pay to win means there is nothing a person without IRL riches can do to achieve the same thing as an IRL rich person.
There is a pay to win mechanism existent today, the Character Bazaar. But Character Bazaar is a necessary evil to prevent RMT via un-preventable account transfers if Character Bazaar didn't exist.
SP Trading not only does not prevent RMT, it introduces a new RMT mechanism untraceable by CCP's current infrastructure (hey, please prove me wrong but I've yet to hear back on this). Why would you introduce a pay to win mechanism if it's not there to prevent RMT? This is somewhat of a half truth, most will expend RL currency to purchase characters at the Bazaar, but that isn't necessary, and is mostly driven by the high cost of entry.
When the packets become individually obtainable at reasonable rates they a) reduce the desire for RL cash expenditure for end users by being more obtainable through in game earnings (for sellers it's no change since they pay character transfer fees in the bazaar via PLEX now) and b) disincentivize RMT related directly to them for the same reason (black markets thrive where legitimate supply is very limited and expensive or doesn't exist. This actually tries to address that specifically as high character prices could actually drive RMT for isk trying to get a better exchange rate on $:SP). |
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1620
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 11:13:44 -
[5571] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Edit: With regard to tracking RMT for packets vs characters or isk I'm not seeing this as a new driver since isk alone is still effectively all of the above anyways so it may be moot, but if it's not how is it less traceable than isk?
That's not the point. the point is that it introduces yet another lure for people to use RMT for. Isk isn't really an issue for newer players, specially not ones in larger entities, it's skillpoints. Think of the hundreds and thousands of newbros, all lining up willing to dig deep for more skillpoints.
It's a great setup: you lure newbies into your alliance, then tell them they'd be more awesome if only they could fly that specific ship/fit and casually drop the option of buying SP from you. There's a reason Goons want this.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
240
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 13:03:33 -
[5572] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Edit: With regard to tracking RMT for packets vs characters or isk I'm not seeing this as a new driver since isk alone is still effectively all of the above anyways so it may be moot, but if it's not how is it less traceable than isk? That's not the point. the point is that it introduces yet another lure for people to use RMT for. Isk isn't really an issue for newer players, specially not ones in larger entities, it's skillpoints. Think of the hundreds and thousands of newbros, all lining up willing to dig deep for more skillpoints. It's a great setup: you lure newbies into your alliance, then tell them they'd be more awesome if only they could fly that specific ship/fit and casually drop the option of buying SP from you. There's a reason Goons want this. There wouldn't be any lure for RMT if it was done by CCP, make it so it was for account use only and non market traded. Then it benefits those who want to pay2progress, not the blobs who can control it for there own mega corps.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 16:44:19 -
[5573] - Quote
Following the ISK /Risk ideology of the game:
For me TSP would be less objectionable if there was a way a character could incur SP Loss -- In the proposed SP meta-game loss of SP only happens by choice and at a profit
At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss -- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss
Edit: To help newbies make T1 ships exempt & like the T3 system make the SP loss related to the ship you are flying |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
240
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 16:56:20 -
[5574] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Following the ISK /Risk ideology of the game:
For me TSP would be less objectionable if there was a way a character could incur SP Loss -- In the proposed SP meta-game loss of SP only happens by choice and at a profit
At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss -- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss. Because for the most part that would make a huge target of new players by gankers and the pvp only orientated players. The object is to increase the player base not take a definite nose dive.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 16:57:08 -
[5575] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Following the ISK /Risk ideology of the game:
For me TSP would be less objectionable if there was a way a character could incur SP Loss -- In the proposed SP meta-game loss of SP only happens by choice and at a profit
At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss -- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss. Because for the most part that would make a huge target of new players by gankers and the pvp only orientated players. The object is to increase the player base not take a definite nose dive.
I did an Edit: To help newbies make T1 ships exempt Like the T3 system make the SP loss related to the ship you are flying Introduce a skill like neurotoxin recovery to soften the blow for High SP players |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 17:12:09 -
[5576] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Following the ISK /Risk ideology of the game:
For me TSP would be less objectionable if there was a way a character could incur SP Loss -- In the proposed SP meta-game loss of SP only happens by choice and at a profit
At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss -- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss. Because for the most part that would make a huge target of new players by gankers and the pvp only orientated players. The object is to increase the player base not take a definite nose dive. I did an Edit: To help newbies make T1 ships exempt Like the T3 system make the SP loss related to the ship you are flying Introduce a skill like neurotoxin recovery to soften the blow for High SP players
Most ganks newbies experience would be on T1 ships - mining retrievers - if they were exempt no problem
As for the PVP - most are not newbies and..... You can always buy more SP - because buying SP is what TSP is all about or do you think it should be just profit & gain without the possibility of loss? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
240
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 17:24:52 -
[5577] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Following the ISK /Risk ideology of the game:
For me TSP would be less objectionable if there was a way a character could incur SP Loss -- In the proposed SP meta-game loss of SP only happens by choice and at a profit
At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss -- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss. Because for the most part that would make a huge target of new players by gankers and the pvp only orientated players. The object is to increase the player base not take a definite nose dive. I did an Edit: To help newbies make T1 ships exempt Like the T3 system make the SP loss related to the ship you are flying Introduce a skill like neurotoxin recovery to soften the blow for High SP players Most ganks newbies experience would be on T1 ships - mining retrievers - if they were exempt no problem As for the PVP - most are not newbies and..... You can always buy more SP - because buying SP is what TSP is all about or do you think it should be just profit & gain without the possibility of loss? I dont want it at all, if it's for the "Greater good" CCP "New player" Then i would rather have CCP provide it as a MT than all this other BS thats possible
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 17:39:27 -
[5578] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Following the ISK /Risk ideology of the game:
For me TSP would be less objectionable if there was a way a character could incur SP Loss -- In the proposed SP meta-game loss of SP only happens by choice and at a profit
At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss -- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss. Because for the most part that would make a huge target of new players by gankers and the pvp only orientated players. The object is to increase the player base not take a definite nose dive. I did an Edit: To help newbies make T1 ships exempt Like the T3 system make the SP loss related to the ship you are flying Introduce a skill like neurotoxin recovery to soften the blow for High SP players Most ganks newbies experience would be on T1 ships - mining retrievers - if they were exempt no problem As for the PVP - most are not newbies and..... You can always buy more SP - because buying SP is what TSP is all about or do you think it should be just profit & gain without the possibility of loss? I dont want it at all, if it's for the "Greater good" CCP "New player" Then i would rather have CCP provide it as a MT than all this other BS thats possible
I don't really want it either but if I have to have it - I want it to follow the isk-risk paradigm and introduce SP loss to balance SP gain
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
240
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 17:47:52 -
[5579] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:I don't really want it either but if I have to have it - I want it to follow the isk-risk paradigm and introduce SP loss to balance SP gain
sorry did an edit above, you missed
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
64
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 17:52:02 -
[5580] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:
At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss -- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss
Because the idea is to get more players - not fewer... |
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 17:57:25 -
[5581] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:
At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss -- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss
Because the idea is to get more players - not fewer...
That's a bold assumption... fewer players would join because why?
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
240
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 18:08:14 -
[5582] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Amanda Orion wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:
At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss -- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss
Because the idea is to get more players - not fewer... That's a bold assumption... fewer players would join because why? Your idea penalizes every player in game for the sake of the skill point sale being the main reason.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 18:26:49 -
[5583] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Amanda Orion wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:
At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss -- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss
Because the idea is to get more players - not fewer... That's a bold assumption... fewer players would join because why? Your idea penalizes every player in game for the sake of the skill point sale being the main reason.
I hasn't stopped players from flying Strategic Cruisers, they didn't jump up and down crying because being blown up in a T3 would cost SP in fact SP sales will be a benefit to T3 pilots.
If it worked for T3 ships and is accepted as part of the game why would it not be accepted by all pilots - If your ship gets blown up you spend isk to replace it + if you die in your ship you spend Isk to replace the SP
It's not for the "sake Of" but to Balance - Or do we allow TSP which is not loss but sale for profit and gain without the risk of loss |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1714
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 18:30:58 -
[5584] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Edit: With regard to tracking RMT for packets vs characters or isk I'm not seeing this as a new driver since isk alone is still effectively all of the above anyways so it may be moot, but if it's not how is it less traceable than isk? That's not the point. the point is that it introduces yet another lure for people to use RMT for. Isk isn't really an issue for newer players, specially not ones in larger entities, it's skillpoints. Think of the hundreds and thousands of newbros, all lining up willing to dig deep for more skillpoints. It's a great setup: you lure newbies into your alliance, then tell them they'd be more awesome if only they could fly that specific ship/fit and casually drop the option of buying SP from you. There's a reason Goons want this. My response to this is already just above what you quoted:
"When the packets become individually obtainable at reasonable rates they a) reduce the desire for RL cash expenditure for end users by being more obtainable through in game earnings (for sellers it's no change since they pay character transfer fees in the bazaar via PLEX now) and b) disincentivize RMT related directly to them for the same reason (black markets thrive where legitimate supply is very limited and expensive or doesn't exist. This actually tries to address that specifically as high character prices could actually drive RMT for isk trying to get a better exchange rate on $:SP)." |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
240
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 18:31:53 -
[5585] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Amanda Orion wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:
At present, the exception of being podded in a T3 (which you choose to fly) is the only game mechanic to inflict SP loss -- Why not extended this and make SP loss related to the value of a ship loss
Because the idea is to get more players - not fewer... That's a bold assumption... fewer players would join because why? Your idea penalizes every player in game for the sake of the skill point sale being the main reason. I hasn't stopped players from flying Strategic Cruisers, they didn't jump up and down crying because being blown up in a T3 would cost SP in fact SP sales will be a benefit to T3 pilots. If it worked for T3 ships and is accepted as part of the game why would it not be accepted by all pilots - If your ship gets blown up you spend isk to replace it + if you die in your ship you spend Isk to replace the SP It's not for the "sake Of" but to Balance - Or do we allow TSP which is not loss but sale for profit and gain without the risk of loss As i stated previously you want to penalize the whole game, for a small minority that choose and accept the risks of T3 as a balance. Thats not going forward thats taking 10 steps backwards.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 18:40:12 -
[5586] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:
That's a bold assumption... fewer players would join because why?
Your idea penalizes every player in game for the sake of the skill point sale being the main reason. I hasn't stopped players from flying Strategic Cruisers, they didn't jump up and down crying because being blown up in a T3 would cost SP in fact SP sales will be a benefit to T3 pilots. If it worked for T3 ships and is accepted as part of the game why would it not be accepted by all pilots - If your ship gets blown up you spend isk to replace it + if you die in your ship you spend Isk to replace the SP It's not for the "sake Of" but to Balance - Or do we allow TSP which is not loss but sale for profit and gain without the risk of loss As i stated previously you want to penalize the whole game, for a small minority that choose and accept the risks of T3 as a balance. Thats not going forward thats taking 10 steps backwards.
Not to penalize but to balance and NOT for the sake of T3 pilots but because TSP is all gain and no loss
EDIT - Did you ever think that the introduction of T3's with SP loss may have been a step forward by CCP... |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1714
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 18:44:33 -
[5587] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:I dont want it at all, if it's for the "Greater good" CCP "New player" Then i would rather have CCP provide it as a MT than all this other BS thats possible In fact i'd go as far to say i would fully support CCP in doing it now over the whole TSP garbage. 0-5m 500k 5-10 450k 10-20 400k 20-50 300k 50+ 50k If they think that having skill points is such a good advantage then go for it. Got to take into account loyalty over pay to advance so just sell the packs for a dollar amount. $6.00 per pack no in game selling and not for in game currency either. Will not effect anything within the game then - Saves all this cloak and dagger shite of personalization and just get it out there like it is. This method doesn't actually do anything you state it will.
It:
a) Does affect the game through giving the advantage of SP b) Doesn't reward loyalty in any way (whereas the current method rewards training gained through loyalty by making it a comobity) c) Actually pushes this into more objectionable territory than any other MT currently in game by only being obtainable via cash d) IIs only actually limited by only willingness to spend currency with no logical limits or supply constraints (unlike the op) e) Offers no way to match with in game effort f) Doesn't interact with gameplay g) Cannot be interfered with for the same reasons
It's objectively worse in every way except the ill defined and possibility of being an RMT vector, which is already cared for by PLEX and the fact that these are still much closer to obtainability that full characters.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1714
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 18:50:36 -
[5588] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Not to penalize but to balance and NOT for the sake of T3 pilots but because TSP is all gain and no loss
EDIT - Did you ever think that the introduction of T3's with SP loss may have been a step forward by CCP... Personally? No. It was designed as a counterbalance for a generally OP group of ships. If SP loss is extended balance concerns will be exasperated further and loss aversion will be greater than ever before.
Not to mention stealth ganker nerf is not so stealth (not implying intent, but the effect is easily visible).
Lastly this is another vet advantage and promoter of inactivity. Those who have high SP and few if any training goals remaining are free to take risks with losses becoming less meaningful. For those that do have training goals this makes simply not undocking a more attractive option.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
240
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 19:01:59 -
[5589] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:
That's a bold assumption... fewer players would join because why?
Your idea penalizes every player in game for the sake of the skill point sale being the main reason. I hasn't stopped players from flying Strategic Cruisers, they didn't jump up and down crying because being blown up in a T3 would cost SP in fact SP sales will be a benefit to T3 pilots. If it worked for T3 ships and is accepted as part of the game why would it not be accepted by all pilots - If your ship gets blown up you spend isk to replace it + if you die in your ship you spend Isk to replace the SP It's not for the "sake Of" but to Balance - Or do we allow TSP which is not loss but sale for profit and gain without the risk of loss As i stated previously you want to penalize the whole game, for a small minority that choose and accept the risks of T3 as a balance. Thats not going forward thats taking 10 steps backwards. Not to penalize but to balance and NOT for the sake of T3 pilots but because TSP is all gain and no loss EDIT - Did you ever think that the introduction of T3's with SP loss may have been a step forward by CCP... Did you consider that how theyre on about launching it at present there's only going to be a certain clientele that are whole heartedly going to exp ... embrace it with all there wealth.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 19:02:09 -
[5590] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Not to penalize but to balance and NOT for the sake of T3 pilots but because TSP is all gain and no loss
EDIT - Did you ever think that the introduction of T3's with SP loss may have been a step forward by CCP... Personally? No. It was designed as a counterbalance for a generally OP group of ships. If SP loss is extended balance concerns will be exasperated further and loss aversion will be greater than ever before. Not to mention stealth ganker nerf is not so stealth (not implying intent, but the effect is easily visible). Lastly this is another vet advantage and promoter of inactivity. Those who have high SP and few if any training goals remaining are free to take risks with losses becoming less meaningful. For those that do have training goals this makes simply not undocking a more attractive option.
Personally I don't want TSP - I would rather have a remap-SP item you could buy from the store and let boosters increase SP gain (with diminishing returns).
I want to tell someone who asks about the game I play: -
It costs about $12 a month to play NOT it costs about $12 a month to play but if want to keep up with everyone you will need to anti up a further $25-$35
(Of course another truth is that you will never be able to catch up with anyone with lots of in game money because they will always have the means to buy SP to keep ahead of you - and it probably wont cost the real money you have to spend) |
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 19:06:08 -
[5591] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:
I hasn't stopped players from flying Strategic Cruisers, they didn't jump up and down crying because being blown up in a T3 would cost SP in fact SP sales will be a benefit to T3 pilots.
If it worked for T3 ships and is accepted as part of the game why would it not be accepted by all pilots - If your ship gets blown up you spend isk to replace it + if you die in your ship you spend Isk to replace the SP
It's not for the "sake Of" but to Balance - Or do we allow TSP which is not loss but sale for profit and gain without the risk of loss
As i stated previously you want to penalize the whole game, for a small minority that choose and accept the risks of T3 as a balance. Thats not going forward thats taking 10 steps backwards. Not to penalize but to balance and NOT for the sake of T3 pilots but because TSP is all gain and no loss EDIT - Did you ever think that the introduction of T3's with SP loss may have been a step forward by CCP... Did you consider that how theyre on about launching it at present there's only going to be a certain clientele that are whole heartedly going to exp ... embrace it with all there wealth.
You mean like - if you buy game time from the Alliance website we will supply you with TSP at a discount - Monetizing the game from both sides....
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1714
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 19:13:49 -
[5592] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Personally I don't want TSP - I would rather have a remap-SP item you could buy from the store and let boosters increase SP gain (with diminishing returns).
I want to tell someone who asks about the game I play: -
It costs about $12 a month to play NOT it costs about $12 a month to play but if want to keep up with everyone you will need to anti up a further $25-$35
(Of course another truth is that you will never be able to catch up with anyone with lots of in game money because they will always have the means to buy SP to keep ahead of you - and it probably wont cost the real money you have to spend) You're bottom statement is currently unture and will continue to be less than completely untrue if this is implemented.
As it stands currently: it costs about $12 a month to play but if want to keep up with everyone you will need to become a time traveler and go back to 2003.
As it will become if this is implemented: it costs about $12 a month to play but if want to keep up with everyone you will need to anti up a further $25-$35 or just get good at making isk or find friends in game who are. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
240
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 19:31:53 -
[5593] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:a) Does affect the game through giving the advantage of SP b) Doesn't reward loyalty in any way (whereas the current method rewards training gained through loyalty by making it a comobity) c) Actually pushes this into more objectionable territory than any other MT currently in game by only being obtainable via cash d) IIs only actually limited by only willingness to spend currency with no logical limits or supply constraints (unlike the op) e) Offers no way to match with in game effort f) Doesn't interact with gameplay g) Cannot be interfered with for the same reasons
It's objectively worse in every way except the ill defined and possibility of being an RMT vector, which is already cared for by PLEX and the fact that these are still much closer to obtainability that full characters.
A.Doesn't effect it any differently than TSP way,except CCP controlling it everyone has equal access at the same price. B. The loyalty part being its more expensive to skill this way than the real time method of existing capsuleers. C. Who gives a flying **** about MT's, theyre here and here to stay - The in games ones now are purely vanity obviously more objectionable. D. MT's are there for that purpose are they not, surely the depreciation scale makes it obvious that its only useful up to a point. E. What effort is there going to be to buy a TSP - oh wait we really don't know that yet !!! F. ???? have no clue what that even means !! G. So you prefer a way for something that is going to be very exploitable in game, As opposed to a fair , price regulated , non exploitable item. Hmmmm .
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1714
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 19:47:22 -
[5594] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:a) Does affect the game through giving the advantage of SP b) Doesn't reward loyalty in any way (whereas the current method rewards training gained through loyalty by making it a comobity) c) Actually pushes this into more objectionable territory than any other MT currently in game by only being obtainable via cash d) IIs only actually limited by only willingness to spend currency with no logical limits or supply constraints (unlike the op) e) Offers no way to match with in game effort f) Doesn't interact with gameplay g) Cannot be interfered with for the same reasons
It's objectively worse in every way except the ill defined and possibility of being an RMT vector, which is already cared for by PLEX and the fact that these are still much closer to obtainability that full characters.
A.Doesn't effect it any differently than TSP way,except CCP controlling it everyone has equal access at the same price. B. The loyalty part being its more expensive to skill this way than the real time method of existing capsuleers. C. Who gives a flying **** about MT's, theyre here and here to stay - The in games ones now are purely vanity obviously more objectionable. D. MT's are there for that purpose are they not, surely the depreciation scale makes it obvious that its only useful up to a point. E. What effort is there going to be to buy a TSP - oh wait we really don't know that yet !!! F. ???? have no clue what that even means !! G. So you prefer a way for something that is going to be very exploitable in game, As opposed to a fair , price regulated , non exploitable item. Hmmmm . a) True, but that wasn't your claim; you said yours didn't affect the game. b) Yet you argued in the past that that scaling did the opposite. I'm not sure where you are on that anymore, but this is still a non change from the op save the scaling detail, which can be adjusted for that idea too. c) Most people here give a ****. We just had this conversation over the last 2 pages again linking back to that factor (P2W/etc). d) No, the only purpose they currently serve is the capacity for unlimited stock of an item with limited use but unlimited capacity for trade. Your idea has unlimited capacity for actual beneficial use and no capacity for trade. The op only has the limited ability to generate items for sale over what current MT's have. e) And? Not knowing the price doesn't actually detract from that at all. f) It means what it says. g) Yes, obviously. That's the cornerstone of trade in the game: the ability to do so freely. Why should this be different? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
241
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 19:55:04 -
[5595] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:a) Does affect the game through giving the advantage of SP b) Doesn't reward loyalty in any way (whereas the current method rewards training gained through loyalty by making it a comobity) c) Actually pushes this into more objectionable territory than any other MT currently in game by only being obtainable via cash d) IIs only actually limited by only willingness to spend currency with no logical limits or supply constraints (unlike the op) e) Offers no way to match with in game effort f) Doesn't interact with gameplay g) Cannot be interfered with for the same reasons
It's objectively worse in every way except the ill defined and possibility of being an RMT vector, which is already cared for by PLEX and the fact that these are still much closer to obtainability that full characters.
A.Doesn't effect it any differently than TSP way,except CCP controlling it everyone has equal access at the same price. B. The loyalty part being its more expensive to skill this way than the real time method of existing capsuleers. C. Who gives a flying **** about MT's, theyre here and here to stay - The in games ones now are purely vanity obviously more objectionable. D. MT's are there for that purpose are they not, surely the depreciation scale makes it obvious that its only useful up to a point. E. What effort is there going to be to buy a TSP - oh wait we really don't know that yet !!! F. ???? have no clue what that even means !! G. So you prefer a way for something that is going to be very exploitable in game, As opposed to a fair , price regulated , non exploitable item. Hmmmm . a) True, but that wasn't your claim; you said yours didn't. b) Yet you argued in the past that that scaling did the opposite. I'm not sure where you are on that anymore, but this is still a non change from the op save the scaling detail, which can be adjusted for that idea too. c) Most people here give a ****. We just had this conversation over the last 2 pages again linking back to that factor (P2W/etc). d) No, the only purpose they currently serve is the capacity for unlimited stock of an item with limited use but unlimited capacity for trade. Your idea has unlimited capacity for actual beneficial use. The op only has the limited ability to generate items for sale. e) And? Not knowing the price doesn't actually detract from that at all. f) It means what it says. g) Yes, obviously. That's the cornerstone of trade in the game: the ability to do so freely. Why should this be different? You see the irony here, The people who want this to happen with all its unknown outcomes are suddenly averse to it when it could be sold with zero impact on the game by CCP. I'd much prefer it to draw new people in than to create blob domains in null. Ive gone past the point of caring about MT's in games anymore and if CCP offered this by them selling it i view it no different than blizzard offering there 90 Boost for $65/40 euro's.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1714
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 20:01:21 -
[5596] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:You see the irony here, The people who want this to happen with all its unknown outcomes are suddenly averse to it when it could be sold with zero impact on the game by CCP. I'd much prefer it to draw new people in than to create blob domains in null. Ive gone past the point of caring about MT's in games anymore and if CCP offered this by them selling it i view it no different than blizzard offering there 90 Boost for $65/40 euro's. Of course people have an aversion to "only RL rich players need apply" suggestions. That reasoning should be self explanatory, but since it's, not there it is.
That's not irony, it's inclusiveness and evening of the playing field to put emphasis where it should be, how well you play the game.
So how about we stop pretending these "unknowns" actually constitute some fundamental change in the nature of the suggestion or actually present some real reasoning instead of this scare tactic BS? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
241
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 20:03:31 -
[5597] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:You see the irony here, The people who want this to happen with all its unknown outcomes are suddenly averse to it when it could be sold with zero impact on the game by CCP. I'd much prefer it to draw new people in than to create blob domains in null. Ive gone past the point of caring about MT's in games anymore and if CCP offered this by them selling it i view it no different than blizzard offering there 90 Boost for $65/40 euro's. Of course people have an aversion to "only RL rich players need apply" suggestions. That reasoning should be self explanatory, but since it's, not there it is. That's not irony, it's inclusiveness and evening of the playing field to put emphasis where it should be, how well you play the game. So how about we stop pretending these "unknowns" actually constitute some fundamental change in the nature of the suggestion or actually present some real reasoning instead of this scare tactic BS? All Time based items should be protected from exploitation like characters and GTC were so you've just said you want to exploit it, Your a sterling example of why this is such a bad idea !!!
Thats why CCP should do it.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
241
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 20:10:27 -
[5598] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:You see the irony here, The people who want this to happen with all its unknown outcomes are suddenly averse to it when it could be sold with zero impact on the game by CCP. I'd much prefer it to draw new people in than to create blob domains in null. Ive gone past the point of caring about MT's in games anymore and if CCP offered this by them selling it i view it no different than blizzard offering there 90 Boost for $65/40 euro's. Of course people have an aversion to "only RL rich players need apply" suggestions. That reasoning should be self explanatory, but since it's, not there it is. That's not irony, it's inclusiveness and evening of the playing field to put emphasis where it should be, how well you play the game. So how about we stop pretending these "unknowns" actually constitute some fundamental change in the nature of the suggestion or actually present some real reasoning instead of this scare tactic BS? Levi Belvar wrote:EDIT: All Time based items should be protected from exploitation like characters and GTC were so you've just said you want to exploit it, Your a sterling example of why this is such a bad idea. No, that's not what I said. That I'm in favor of the potential for scams to occur with this item in no way mean I plan to do so. Even if I did that doesn't make my position any less valid unless you want to claim scamming should be removed. Also PLEX is a time based item, GTCs when brought into the game become PLEX, and PLEX are scamable. GTCs themselves are real world vouchers for access to the game and thus cannot be scammed by the in game rules. They are real world commodities. The only non scamable item in game is characters, which still require out of game real money transfer as well. No they don't you can use 2 plex for the transfer. Again what is a character full of ....... skillpoints - TIME.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
241
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 20:58:09 -
[5599] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Of course people have an aversion to "only RL rich players need apply" suggestions. That reasoning should be self explanatory, but since it's, not there it is. So these so called RL rich players are fine buying plex - isk to buy them in game, but somehow can't find $6 to buy them from CCP ???? Or are you referring to the fact again that buy CCP selling them there is no exploitable market to be had. All the in game rich people can abuse it instead.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 21:22:37 -
[5600] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Of course people have an aversion to "only RL rich players need apply" suggestions. That reasoning should be self explanatory, but since it's, not there it is. So these so called RL rich players are fine buying plex - isk to buy them in game, but somehow can't find $6 to buy them from CCP ???? Or are you referring to the fact again that buy CCP selling them there is no exploitable market to be had. All the in game rich people can abuse it instead.
No only RL rich but how about players with access to a few trillion isk available from in alliance funds
Buy Multiple accounts - or reactivate the redundant bot miners - Or buy the cheaper lower skilled toons from the Bazaar Farm accounts for SP Improve the quality of the pilots in your fleet at a greater rate than everyone else
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1720
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 21:47:08 -
[5601] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:No they don't you can use 2 plex for the transfer. Again what is a character full of ....... skillpoints - TIME. A few things: Reverse redeemed plex for character transfer payment cannot be traded or scammed. PLEX in game, which is time in game item form, can be scammed. Characters are traded via in game currency, which per you is also time.
In game transfer of time is the current precedent. Scamming time is a precedent with a single exception, characters, for reasons related to actual theft of characters, which is not allowed.
Levi Belvar wrote:So these so called RL rich players are fine buying plex - isk to buy them in game, but somehow can't find $6 to buy them from CCP ???? At no point was this reasoning ever stated or implied. I have no idea where you got this from.
Levi Belvar wrote:Or are you referring to the fact again that buy CCP selling them there is no exploitable market to be had. All the in game rich people can abuse it instead. If by "abuse" you mean use then yes. You haven't actually justified excluding them yet save stating that scamming is possible, which is a supported mechanic of the game. Since we already know time (PLEX) is scammable and that doing so is allowed and supported, and you have such a big issue with it, are you sue you're playing the right game?
Iowa Banshee wrote:No only RL rich but how about players with access to a few trillion isk available from in alliance funds
Buy Multiple accounts - or reactivate the redundant bot miners - Or buy the cheaper lower skilled toons from the Bazaar Farm accounts for SP Improve the quality of the pilots in your fleet at a greater rate than everyone else "CCP, nerf friends"
Or more specifically: "In game entities shouldn't be able to offer advantages for their members, cooperation shouldn't be able to reap rewards for being successful, and leveraging their success should never become a benefit to their new recruits (which is ironic as that's likely the place with the highest retention)"
So basically, as I understand you both, the market that functions perfectly fine for everything else in game (including time in PLEX form) is too broken for this specifically because old players can buy things and may chose to do so for some new players.
Worse, since scamming is possible, all new players, those with the least attachment to the game and the most to gain from the feature, should reasonably be expected to be ready and willing to pay even more real cash.
And this is more fair because simply being excluded on every level due to RL finance constraints ensures equality.
Glad you got this all figured out so well. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
241
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 22:11:34 -
[5602] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Of course people have an aversion to "only RL rich players need apply" suggestions. That reasoning should be self explanatory, but since it's, not there it is. So these so called RL rich players are fine buying plex - isk to buy them in game, but somehow can't find $6 to buy them from CCP ????
You now saying you didnt say the quoted section ??
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 22:20:14 -
[5603] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Of course people have an aversion to "only RL rich players need apply" suggestions. That reasoning should be self explanatory, but since it's, not there it is. So these so called RL rich players are fine buying plex - isk to buy them in game, but somehow can't find $6 to buy them from CCP ???? You now saying you didnt say the quoted section ??
If CCP offered: An item that allowed a toon to be packaged for sale ISK for SP on the market. An item to remap a toons SP An item to add SP or Boosters to increase SP gain (diminishing returns on higher skilled Toons)
When the above list is compared with the functions of the proposed TSP system its the SAME outcome apart from ONE thing
Something is missing - can you spot it.....
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1720
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 22:23:25 -
[5604] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Of course people have an aversion to "only RL rich players need apply" suggestions. That reasoning should be self explanatory, but since it's, not there it is. So these so called RL rich players are fine buying plex - isk to buy them in game, but somehow can't find $6 to buy them from CCP ???? You now saying you didnt say the quoted section ?? I'm saying the quoted section doesn't translate to whatever that was you came up with. Whether it was exclusively affordable via PLEX (which is impossible since getting isk for PLEX requires a player with sufficient buying power in game) or exclusively available via direct CCP purchase it would still be the domain of "only RL rich players."
There was no claim or implication even remotely related to the idea that anyone was rich enough for plex but not enough to buy SP. That's the part where I have no idea the origin. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 22:37:52 -
[5605] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Of course people have an aversion to "only RL rich players need apply" suggestions. That reasoning should be self explanatory, but since it's, not there it is. So these so called RL rich players are fine buying plex - isk to buy them in game, but somehow can't find $6 to buy them from CCP ???? You now saying you didnt say the quoted section ?? I'm saying the quoted section doesn't translate to whatever that was you came up with. Whether it was exclusively affordable via PLEX (which is impossible since getting isk for PLEX requires a player with sufficient buying power in game) or exclusively available via direct CCP purchase it would still be the domain of "only RL rich players." There was no claim or implication even remotely related to the idea that anyone was rich enough for plex but not enough to buy SP were CCP to offer it directly. That's the concept for which I have no idea the origin.
This is true - if you a willing to spend RL cash over and above the subscription for PLEX@store you will probably be able to do it for SP@Store
OF course if its SP@market it then follows that in game ISK rich players as well as RL rich players can do something a poor subs only player cannot - Does that not disadvantage & discourage players on a lower budget. newbies and the like? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1720
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 22:48:14 -
[5606] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:This is true - if you a willing to spend RL cash over and above the subscription for PLEX@store you will probably be able to do it for SP@Store
OF course if its SP@market it then follows that in game ISK rich players as well as RL rich players can do something a poor subs only player cannot - Does that not disadvantage & discourage players on a lower budget. newbies and the like? Simple point of distinction.
If not tradable: - The RL poor and in game poor can't participate. - The RL poor and in game rich can't participate. - The RL rich and in game poor can participate. - The RL rich and in game rich can participate.
If tradable: - The RL poor and in game poor can't participate. - The RL poor and in game rich can participate. - The RL rich and in game poor can participate. - The RL rich and in game rich can participate. - The RL poor and in game poor can solicit the help of the in game rich to participate.
So not being tradable is demonstrably more exclusive. Not totally inclusive for those that don't want to make it a goal, but that doesn't seem to be the intent. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
241
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 22:49:54 -
[5607] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Of course people have an aversion to "only RL rich players need apply" suggestions. That reasoning should be self explanatory, but since it's, not there it is. So these so called RL rich players are fine buying plex - isk to buy them in game, but somehow can't find $6 to buy them from CCP ???? You now saying you didnt say the quoted section ?? I'm saying the quoted section doesn't translate to whatever that was you came up with. Whether it was exclusively affordable via PLEX (which is impossible since getting isk for PLEX requires a player with sufficient buying power in game) or exclusively available via direct CCP purchase it would still be the domain of "only RL rich players." There was no claim or implication even remotely related to the idea that anyone was rich enough for plex but not enough to buy SP were CCP to offer it directly. That's the concept for which I have no idea the origin. Well try reading back up your intellectually challenged answers and you will find the corresponding part. You cant give me one solid reason why CCP shouldn't sell them, apart from to witter on about how to exploit something is fine and within the rules. The mechanic involved in creating this don't forget is a thin air product from the NEX store, so still needs a MT. If it could benefit everyone in game by purchasing from CCP why do you find it would be better applied so that only big corps/alliances are going to be making the most use of it. The new average joe bloggs will not get a look in on these items player controlled, thats a fact and as you pointed out to me when i used the term "unknown outcome" referring to exploit, If you were honest you would also say the same about who is going to be controlling the purchasing of all these items.
So after all this, nothing is being done to either draw new players in or help them in anyway, player driven is purely self serving.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
241
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 22:56:41 -
[5608] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:This is true - if you a willing to spend RL cash over and above the subscription for PLEX@store you will probably be able to do it for SP@Store
OF course if its SP@market it then follows that in game ISK rich players as well as RL rich players can do something a poor subs only player cannot - Does that not disadvantage & discourage players on a lower budget. newbies and the like? Simple point of distinction. If not tradable: - The RL poor and in game poor can't participate. - The RL poor and in game rich can't participate. - The RL rich and in game poor can participate. - The RL rich and in game rich can participate. If tradable: - The RL poor and in game poor can't participate. - The RL poor and in game rich can participate.- The RL rich and in game poor can participate. - The RL rich and in game rich can participate. - The RL poor and in game poor can solicit the help of the in game rich to participate.So not being tradable is demonstrably more exclusive. Not totally inclusive for those that don't want to make it a goal, but that doesn't seem to be the intent. You also missed a few things out on the non trade part, Not scammable, No chance of price fluctuation, if your soft enough - not losing them as cargo if your shipping them.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1720
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 23:14:18 -
[5609] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Well try reading back up your intellectually challenged answers and you will find the corresponding part. If I had to guess I'd say you probably either don't have anything to point to, realize you did the same "creative" interpreting you did for the quote you referenced, and/or are just getting too lazy to support your own arguments.
Levi Belvar wrote:You cant give me one solid reason why CCP shouldn't sell them, apart from to witter on about how to exploit something is fine and within the rules. I gave the most important one a few times now.
Most recently here.
And also some here.
Levi Belvar wrote:The mechanic involved in creating this don't forget is a thin air product from the NEX store, so still needs a MT. If it could benefit everyone in game by purchasing from CCP why do you find it would be better applied so that only big corps/alliances are going to be making the most use of it. Because those groups do the most for new players and have the greatest retention. Because putting the burden on new players alone with real world cash makes little sense. Because mandatory exclusion via mandating real expense unlevels the playing field more than anything in the op conceivably could. Because the alternative promotes none of the tenets of eve regarding cooperation and achieving a common goal.
Basically because it's all around worse than anything you claim to prevent, and what you present as negatives are actually the positives that will help new players get greater access.
Levi Belvar wrote:The new average joe bloggs will not get a look in on these items player controlled, thats a fact and as you pointed out to me when i used the term "unknown outcome" referring to exploit, If you were honest you would also say the same about who is going to be controlling the purchasing of all these items.
So after all this, nothing is being done to either draw new players in or help them in anyway, player driven is purely self serving. I re-demonstrated the new player draw for you, and pointed to a location it was stated prior.
That aside, my statements regarding unknowns were that you were using information you didn't have, or worse the actual fact that you didn't have information, to reach some manner of absolute conclusion, contrary to the way everything else on the market works. What I pointed out was that these have a cost and that's all. I never stated they wouldn't be able to get them on the market save in reference to your idea which eliminates that possibility.
That was not in reference to the proposal fro CCP.
If we're talking about honesty, we'd have to acknowledge that we are only able to speculate, and further still have to in some way justify those speculations. Thus me saying "I don't know" is far more honest that your "joe bloggs will not get a look in on these items player controlled" without even the slightest justification behind it and a market that suggests strongly otherwise. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1720
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 23:17:47 -
[5610] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:This is true - if you a willing to spend RL cash over and above the subscription for PLEX@store you will probably be able to do it for SP@Store
OF course if its SP@market it then follows that in game ISK rich players as well as RL rich players can do something a poor subs only player cannot - Does that not disadvantage & discourage players on a lower budget. newbies and the like? Simple point of distinction. If not tradable: - The RL poor and in game poor can't participate. - The RL poor and in game rich can't participate. - The RL rich and in game poor can participate. - The RL rich and in game rich can participate. If tradable: - The RL poor and in game poor can't participate. - The RL poor and in game rich can participate.- The RL rich and in game poor can participate. - The RL rich and in game rich can participate. - The RL poor and in game poor can solicit the help of the in game rich to participate.So not being tradable is demonstrably more exclusive. Not totally inclusive for those that don't want to make it a goal, but that doesn't seem to be the intent. You also missed a few things out on the non trade part, Not scammable, No chance of price fluctuation, if your soft enough - not losing them as cargo if your shipping them. Scammable is better than unavailable. Price fluctuation is better than unavailable.
The reason they are better is that for a non participant neither has any meaning, and for a participant it simply means more options.
Also why would you ever move it if it can't be traded? Why would it not go directly into your head since it serves no purpose in item form?
Edit: Those should actually probably be added to the list of advantages of being tradable. |
|
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services The WINGSPAN Logo Alliance
610
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 01:13:54 -
[5611] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:(...)
This is why the selling of skill points goes against what CCP stated :
"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "
CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05
Until now every single thing in game is about time invested, This corrupts the whole philosophy of that principle.
(...) Probably CCP is planning to shift from an access monetization model to an activity monetization model. When players do more things ingame than they log in, either you improve how many players log in or you monetize what they do. And frankly, CCP's chances to improve subscriptions are scarce. They don't have any plans to call in new players with some groundbreaking feature that could enable them to start from zero and in equal terms to the veteran players. Even the new content will be added to the end of endgame content, requiring alliances/structures/nullsec/ PvP and what the hell to as much as consider moving into that new space, whatever it is. Also, EVE has been cutting through the same niche for 12 years. And all in all since CCP failed so horribly to understand that the average subscriber used to be a highsec PvEr, and those players are just leaving the game, CCP as a company don't have many options. They rely on access monetization, but they're running out of customers willing to access the game for a fee. They also have added customization monetization, but that is related to how many people play the game. Less players mean less need to one-time sells of cosmetic items. So what's left to sell and monetize? Ingame activity. The things you do, which are effectively locked behind a time-controled skillpoint barrier. You need to pay access for t game time in order to have the skills to fly that ship or use that module. But what if you can just buy those skills? Not from a void, but from the existing 12 years long pool, to protect the skillpoint market, at least initially. Then, what CCP does is to charge you for what you do. Activity monetization. And once they're charging players for something they do (fly a ship for money rather than time), sky is the limit. They can charge players for absolutely anything locked behind the skillpoint barrier. For an instance, CCP a may charge them for any skillpoints, and give them skillpoints for free if they pay a subscription ("Premium" skillpoints). Thus there is no need to charge them for access. That, of course, calls in every player interested in EVE but not interested in paying months of subscription to "fly the cool stuff". Skillpoints still would be a barrier. And players still could grind their way to lift it for time (grind ISK, buy skillpoints). To us the old farts, it is very simple. Either we stick with EVE F2P or give up all we did for those subscriptions and the effort behind them. The money we paid to CCP? Thanks for it. Now we can sell the SP to lift the ISK access barrier, if that bothers us much. CCP is a company. They've painted themselves in a corner and the only way out is a "freemium" model with skillpoints being the bonus for subscription and the barrier to limit what a player can achieve by paying. Then numbers will rise up, old players will get lots of PvP targets and customization monetization also increases when whales (there's always whales in F2P) feel they need to fly every ship and SKIN it in every possible way. That's in the thousands of dollars even with the current stock of the NES. So now that CCP is moving in that direction, what are you going to do when EVE goes Free to Play, for the future well of CCP? I... I think I will keep playing the game. Having lots of people around could prove interesting. Yes, some will be the usual freetoplayaidscancerkids. But some will stick longer and love this old wh0re for what she is, no matter how you pay her services. (But oh I will feel SO stupid about all those thousands of euros in subscriptions...)
Brilliantly said and a large part of what drove me to similar conclusions.
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
241
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 08:19:32 -
[5612] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:This is true - if you a willing to spend RL cash over and above the subscription for PLEX@store you will probably be able to do it for SP@Store
OF course if its SP@market it then follows that in game ISK rich players as well as RL rich players can do something a poor subs only player cannot - Does that not disadvantage & discourage players on a lower budget. newbies and the like? Simple point of distinction. If not tradable: - The RL poor and in game poor can't participate. - The RL poor and in game rich can't participate. - The RL rich and in game poor can participate. - The RL rich and in game rich can participate. - NOT SCAMABLE -NO CHANCE OF PRICE CHANGE FROM CCP If tradable: - The RL poor and in game poor can't participate. - The RL poor and in game rich can participate.- The RL rich and in game poor can participate. - The RL rich and in game rich can participate. - The RL poor and in game poor can solicit the help of the in game rich to participate.COULD BE LOST IF MOVING THEM TO / FROM NULL So not being tradable is demonstrably more exclusive. Not totally inclusive for those that don't want to make it a goal, but that doesn't seem to be the intent. You also missed a few things out on the non trade part, Not scammable, No chance of price fluctuation, if your soft enough - not losing them as cargo if your shipping them. Scammable is better than unavailable. Price fluctuation is better than unavailable. The reason they are better is that for a non participant neither has any meaning, and for a participant it simply means more options. Also why would you ever move it if it can't be traded? Why would it not go directly into your head since it serves no purpose in item form? Edit: Those should actually probably be added to the list of advantages of being tradable. Unavailable ??? Don't you understand english or something. if they were only available from CCP direct they would be available to everyone at a set price to redeem, They would never be unavailable. being a redeemed item they have no chance to be lost either if they were per account. This is what i meant about seeing something and twisting to your way of thinking.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1625
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 09:15:45 -
[5613] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Probably CCP is planning to shift from an access monetization model to an activity monetization model.
When players do more things ingame than they log in, either you improve how many players log in or you monetize what they do.
And frankly, CCP's chances to improve subscriptions are scarce. They don't have any plans to call in new players with some groundbreaking feature that could enable them to start from zero and in equal terms to the veteran players. Even the new content will be added to the end of endgame content, requiring alliances/structures/nullsec/ PvP and what the hell to as much as consider moving into that new space, whatever it is. Also, EVE has been cutting through the same niche for 12 years.
And all in all since CCP failed so horribly to understand that the average subscriber used to be a highsec PvEr, and those players are just leaving the game, CCP as a company don't have many options.
They rely on access monetization, but they're running out of customers willing to access the game for a fee. Brilliantly said and a large part of what drove me to similar conclusions.
No, they're not "running out of people willing to pay for a game" as is put. The drop is a backlash from CCP trying to have its cake and eat in regards to accepting that this is a competitive pvp centric game but focussing more and more on the low-effort carebeary player and game mechanics. The game has been dumbed down for a long time now, in doing so they've been alienating their long term, very loyal, customers to try and bag some of the WOW crowd. People kept clinging on in hopes it would get better, many of them doing so through plex (would they actually have to pay for their accounts many would have stopped years ago).
This is how I explained is some 6 years ago in a similar thread where I warned them about it:
Quote:So, they're alienating a part of the older clientele, in favor of new customers (which, if the numbers work out correctly is good for them). Thing is; those new customers want flawless gameplay, proper details and no bugs because they're used to that as that is what blizzard did SO well with WOW and their other games; it WORKS. EVE cannot provide that. So, they might get new people short term but it is my opinion that they will be unable to retain them long term.
So they gave a big middle finger to the old guard, using their money and long term support of the game to waste it on other projects and turning the game into something those people never asked for. And instead focussed more on the fickle "oooh shiny" grind crowd which tends to have an attention span of 5 seconds (or 1-5 months in game terms). Well done!
After Incarnage and up to 2013 we saw a resurge and we started to believe again yet CCP kept procrastinating. They did a ton of good stuff but the game play changes the game really needed didn't happen and the stuff the game REALLY didn't need DID happen (thanks Greyscale, you fcked it up good) because unlike the old CCP folks who were avid pvpers the new ones are not, they're carebears and they aimed for a carebear game.
All the years that EVE focussed on bashing each other's heads in with space lasers the game did well, growing in numbers. Then they wanted to be WOW in space and after a while ppl caught on and gave up. The solution is not more PVE, it's more PVP because that is a niche with a solid and loyal player pool. F2P will **** EVE up even more, it'll be the same thing: a short term resurge followed by a massive drop because the PVPers gave up and PVEers lost interest and moved on to the next new shiny thing. Leaving only the F2P deadbeat poorfags who will get nothing done in terms of content creation, and a few pvpers who stick around to just farm tomatoes every day. |
Danmal
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
31
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 12:28:22 -
[5614] - Quote
What I will say will have implications for the proposed model, but I need to say a little more to get there. So bear with me. First, newbies need more SP. There is almost no reasonable senior player that I have heard say otherwise. For a player to have some sort of fun a player needs about 5 M SP (assuming that most fun lies in PVPing and that the potentially more sticky players come for PVP, which is supported by the Fanfest statement that who blows up in his or her first two weeks is more likely to subscribe). The story told by commentators of AT or now the Amarr Trials that you can have fun on day one is really a delusion.
Now assume you implement your proposed plan with staggered SP transfer values. 0-5 M SP; 500 k transfer 5-10 M SP; 400 k transfer 10-50 M SP; 200 k transfer >50 SP; 50 k transfer
What do you expect the equilibrium price to be? And who do you expect will buy this? The Day, $, and ISK equivalent of a character making 1.5 M SP per month would look something like this (I assume GTC/subscription price of $15 and a PLEX price of 1.2 b):
0-5 M SP; 500 k transfer; 10 days training; $5; 400 M ISK 5-10 M SP; 400 k transfer; 7 days training; $4; 320 M ISK 10-50 M SP; 200 k transfer; 3.5 days training; $2; 160 M ISK >50 SP; 50 k transfer; 1 day training; $0.5; 40 M ISK
That will result in an equilibrium price in which all groups participate in this if and only if, >50 M SP makes ISK in game at 4 times the rate of 10-50 SP players, those make ISK at twice the rate of 5-10 M SP players, and those make ISK at 1.25 times the rate of 0-5 M SP players (or alternatively that they have a that much greater willingness to pay in real $, which is not plausible, as WTP in real $ should be the other way round if I get progressively less for my money).
What I am saying is this, the people who will participate in this the most are the young players (with the exception of some really ISK rich players that do not know what to spend ISK on and/or don't understand economics). That's OK. But if that is clear in the first place, why don't you give new players 1 M SP and allow them to purchase a one-time only 4 M SP booster pack (or whatchuwannacallit) for a lump sum.
I understand that your plan does not actually add any SP to the game, whereas mine does, but since the pitchforks and torches are already prepared given the comments, you might as well ask the community whether they would support the plan to boost newbros. Because everyone loves those, and it would be a lot more transparent and simple. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1625
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 12:41:03 -
[5615] - Quote
Danmal wrote:What I will say will have implications for the proposed model, but I need to say a little more to get there. So bear with me. First, newbies need more SP. There is almost no reasonable senior player that I have heard say otherwise. For a player to have some sort of fun a player needs about 5 M SP (assuming that most fun lies in PVPing and that the potentially more sticky players come for PVP, which is supported by the Fanfest statement that who blows up in his or her first two weeks is more likely to subscribe). The story told by commentators of AT or now the Amarr Trials that you can have fun on day one is really a delusion.
Now assume you implement your proposed plan with staggered SP transfer values. 0-5 M SP; 500 k transfer 5-10 M SP; 400 k transfer 10-50 M SP; 200 k transfer >50 SP; 50 k transfer
What do you expect the equilibrium price to be? And who do you expect will buy this? The Day, $, and ISK equivalent of a character making 1.5 M SP per month would look something like this (I assume GTC/subscription price of $15 and a PLEX price of 1.2 b):
0-5 M SP; 500 k transfer; 10 days training; $5; 400 M ISK 5-10 M SP; 400 k transfer; 7 days training; $4; 320 M ISK 10-50 M SP; 200 k transfer; 3.5 days training; $2; 160 M ISK >50 SP; 50 k transfer; 1 day training; $0.5; 40 M ISK
That will result in an equilibrium price in which all groups participate in this if and only if, >50 M SP makes ISK in game at 4 times the rate of 10-50 SP players, those make ISK at twice the rate of 5-10 M SP players, and those make ISK at 1.25 times the rate of 0-5 M SP players (or alternatively that they have a that much greater willingness to pay in real $, which is not plausible, as WTP in real $ should be the other way round if I get progressively less for my money).
What I am saying is this, the people who will participate in this the most are the young players (with the exception of some really ISK rich players that do not know what to spend ISK on and/or don't understand economics). That's OK. But if that is clear in the first place, why don't you give new players 1 M SP and allow them to purchase a one-time only 4 M SP booster pack (or whatchuwannacallit) for a lump sum.
I understand that your plan does not actually add any SP to the game, whereas mine does, but since the pitchforks and torches are already prepared given the comments, you might as well ask the community whether they would support the plan to boost newbros. Because everyone loves those, and it would be a lot more transparent and simple.
Go play COD where you can unlock all the gear with micro transactions. See CCP, this is the type of mindset you attract when you change the game to cater to non-efforts. |
Danmal
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
31
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 13:20:19 -
[5616] - Quote
effort |-êef+Ört|, noun: a vigorous or determined attempt
What has sitting on your behind waiting for your skills to train to do with effort?
Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:What I will say will have implications for the proposed model, but I need to say a little more to get there. So bear with me. First, newbies need more SP. There is almost no reasonable senior player that I have heard say otherwise. For a player to have some sort of fun a player needs about 5 M SP (assuming that most fun lies in PVPing and that the potentially more sticky players come for PVP, which is supported by the Fanfest statement that who blows up in his or her first two weeks is more likely to subscribe). The story told by commentators of AT or now the Amarr Trials that you can have fun on day one is really a delusion.
Now assume you implement your proposed plan with staggered SP transfer values. 0-5 M SP; 500 k transfer 5-10 M SP; 400 k transfer 10-50 M SP; 200 k transfer >50 SP; 50 k transfer
What do you expect the equilibrium price to be? And who do you expect will buy this? The Day, $, and ISK equivalent of a character making 1.5 M SP per month would look something like this (I assume GTC/subscription price of $15 and a PLEX price of 1.2 b):
0-5 M SP; 500 k transfer; 10 days training; $5; 400 M ISK 5-10 M SP; 400 k transfer; 7 days training; $4; 320 M ISK 10-50 M SP; 200 k transfer; 3.5 days training; $2; 160 M ISK >50 SP; 50 k transfer; 1 day training; $0.5; 40 M ISK
That will result in an equilibrium price in which all groups participate in this if and only if, >50 M SP makes ISK in game at 4 times the rate of 10-50 SP players, those make ISK at twice the rate of 5-10 M SP players, and those make ISK at 1.25 times the rate of 0-5 M SP players (or alternatively that they have a that much greater willingness to pay in real $, which is not plausible, as WTP in real $ should be the other way round if I get progressively less for my money).
What I am saying is this, the people who will participate in this the most are the young players (with the exception of some really ISK rich players that do not know what to spend ISK on and/or don't understand economics). That's OK. But if that is clear in the first place, why don't you give new players 1 M SP and allow them to purchase a one-time only 4 M SP booster pack (or whatchuwannacallit) for a lump sum.
I understand that your plan does not actually add any SP to the game, whereas mine does, but since the pitchforks and torches are already prepared given the comments, you might as well ask the community whether they would support the plan to boost newbros. Because everyone loves those, and it would be a lot more transparent and simple. Go play COD where you can unlock all the gear with micro transactions. See CCP, this is the type of mindset you attract when you change the game to cater to non-efforts.
|
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1627
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 14:02:02 -
[5617] - Quote
Danmal wrote:effort |-êef+Ört|, noun: a vigorous or determined attempt
What has sitting on your behind waiting for your skills to train to do with effort?
Why are you effectively asking to start your WOW character at lvl 60, where you can buy 10 extra levels for x amount of money. This isn't WOW. And how can you possibly think this moronic idea (and the ones that come from it) won't fck up the core of the game? |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
242
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 14:09:56 -
[5618] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:effort |-êef+Ört|, noun: a vigorous or determined attempt
What has sitting on your behind waiting for your skills to train to do with effort? Why are you effectively asking to start your WOW character at lvl 60, where you can buy 10 extra levels for x amount of money. This isn't WOW. And how can you possibly think this moronic idea (and the ones that come from it) won't fck up the core of the game?
you can start your wow career at lv 90 now for just a little bit of cash. |
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2101
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 14:18:32 -
[5619] - Quote
As a player with above 100 mil sp and nothing much I need to train for, I sure would like the option to play for free if i disable my training.
I also think is is BS how people with high sp are getting shafted. What a way to thank your loyal customers
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
|
YouAreMyBounty Sarn
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 14:27:40 -
[5620] - Quote
This is the thing though. If they decide to implement TSP's, would you still have to pay for an Eve subscription to be able to play? I would literally pay to buy 20mill more ISK and then never pay a single penny to the developers again. That would be awesome. But I just doubt CCP would do that. I think they'd force you to pay to play even without training anything.
One limiting factor of Eve is that you can only re-map once a year. This is SO annoying & unnecessary. If they sacked that off and allowed you to remap, or re-do your existing skill points, then this would suffice. There is no need for TSP's. I am highly against them. |
|
YouAreMyBounty Sarn
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 14:32:50 -
[5621] - Quote
I would also like to know how a post with over 5500 comments on hasn't been updated by the Devs. We want to communicate with you and work with you!! Why is nobody from CCP appearing to care about these responses? |
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
64
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 14:34:36 -
[5622] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:I also think is is BS how people with high sp are getting shafted. What a way to thank your loyal customers
Indeed.
I have expressed my gratitude by allowing MCT to lapse.
I will review it again once this lunacy has been resolved - one way or the other.
|
Danmal
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
31
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 14:44:50 -
[5623] - Quote
I can think that because if they limit it once and for all to newbros, then it does not fck up the core of the game, as you say. Because the newbro needs to be advanced to the core of the game first, so that s/he can participate in it.
I can also think that because the claim that your newbro skill training had anything to do with effort has neither face validity nor veracity. All you did to train your first three months of skill up is to pay your subscription and sit on your behind. That is not effort, as you claim. You haven't responded to that.
CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005). Today probably more. I would bet one reason why people leave the game is because they feel they can't do anything in the beginning. What other game are you paying 45 bucks (three months of subscription) for, in which you can't really do much? I am actually interested in your answer to this question.
Moreover, if you haven't been following recent developments, despite CCP having made the game better in many respects, they are losing concurrent users at the very least (that is, content) and more likely subscribers. If the loss of subscribers that others have projected are anywhere near accurate, then CCP is not profitable (not even in its heyday has it been terribly profitable). That means one of two things. They need to cut costs or increase revenues. That's an economic necessity, as much as you may want to shield yourself from it. Increased revenues can come from monetizing the existing user base or making money off a new player. By the same virtue you are against what I am saying, you could also be against the character bazaar. Because I can just take $ and buy a character.
Now instead of selling SP directly as I proposed, there would be a perfect work around within the current system: You or I create 3 month characters with skills that we think are desirable and sell them on the character bazaar. The problem is even if we do this for good and sell them for three plex, the buyer (or we) would still have to stomach the two plex transfer fee, which quite obviously increases the cost by 2/3 at least. At that point we are looking at a $75 or so price tag for a character that can fly a Navy Comet reasonably well. Do I really break the game by making something more cheaply possible that is already possible to do more expensively today?
Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:effort |-êef+Ört|, noun: a vigorous or determined attempt
What has sitting on your behind waiting for your skills to train to do with effort? Why are you effectively asking to start your WOW character at lvl 60, where you can buy 10 extra levels for x amount of money. This isn't WOW. And how can you possibly think this moronic idea (and the ones that come from it) won't fck up the core of the game? |
Danmal
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
31
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 14:50:26 -
[5624] - Quote
And with that approach you expect CCP to pay their devs how and for how long?
Rek Seven wrote:As a player with above 100 mil sp and nothing much I need to train for, I sure would like the option to play for free if i disable my training. I also think is is BS how people with high sp are getting shafted. What a way to thank your loyal customers
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
188
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 15:09:51 -
[5625] - Quote
YouAreMyBounty Sarn wrote:I would also like to know how a post with over 5500 comments on hasn't been updated by the Devs. We want to communicate with you and work with you!! Why is nobody from CCP appearing to care about these responses?
Because this is only *pretending* to be a feedback thread, this change will happen whether we like it or not, whether it's a good idea or not because *$-ú reasons $-ú*.
|
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2101
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 15:10:26 -
[5626] - Quote
Danmal wrote:And with that approach you expect CCP to pay their devs how and for how long? Rek Seven wrote:As a player with above 100 mil sp and nothing much I need to train for, I sure would like the option to play for free if i disable my training. I also think is is BS how people with high sp are getting shafted. What a way to thank your loyal customers
Through the constant micro transaction they are adding?
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
|
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1627
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 15:12:07 -
[5627] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:effort |-êef+Ört|, noun: a vigorous or determined attempt
What has sitting on your behind waiting for your skills to train to do with effort? Why are you effectively asking to start your WOW character at lvl 60, where you can buy 10 extra levels for x amount of money. This isn't WOW. And how can you possibly think this moronic idea (and the ones that come from it) won't fck up the core of the game? you can start your wow career at lv 90 now for just a little bit of cash.
Exactly, and what does that mean? That you're effectively circumventing the actual game, you're avoiding having to grind so you can instantly do the endgame: grinding to get better gear so you can grind better... or something. But EVE doesn't have an end game nor does it necessarily have a grind.
PVE focussed grind MMOs are forever forced to keep adding content, that's what their business model is based on: keep dangling that carrot on a stick, every 6 months a new one. People pay extra money to get an expansion with a whole bunch of content that players will immediately circumvent, trying to find the fastest way to the end goal to THEN whine about how there is no content, and that they need more. EVEN in a well run MMO like WOW people start whining for new content literally weeks after a new expansion. But EVE isn't a grind MMO, it's a sandbox that doesn't HAVE content as such. CCP trying to cater to the PVE mind set players doesn't work because they can't still their hunger for more and more pve content.
It's the carebear mind set that asks for p2w, p2advance and shortcuts. And if that actually happens then 3 seconds later they'll whine about how they're bored again, wanting more. Listening to people like that doesn't work because A) they don't know what they really want and b) they're too dumb to realise how something will fck up the game they want to play. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1627
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 15:20:15 -
[5628] - Quote
Danmal wrote:CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005
So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch?
According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine.
What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is?
|
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2101
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 15:25:08 -
[5629] - Quote
Danmal wrote:I can think that because if they limit it once and for all to newbros, then it does not fck up the core of the game, as you say. Because the newbro needs to be advanced to the core of the game first, so that s/he can participate in it.
Why do new players need to be quickly advanced to a "core level"? ...what ever that is. The only people who say that are people who live in lull sec and want all new players to join their already overgrown hordes.
The majority of players live in HS and there is plenty to do at both the low and high level in HS. This system does very little to benefit new players in a meaningful way. It attempts to replace the character bazaar but fails because it penalises older players.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
|
Danmal
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
31
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 15:48:03 -
[5630] - Quote
As I stated the retention rate was from players that started in 2005, an early cohort. While I could speculate what it is today, I would not have any data to support my claims, so I'll abstain.
Apart from that you still have not answered my genuine questions: what game do you pay $45 for in which you basically cannot do much? What we are talking about here is really the difference between these two scenarios: Let them pay $45 in advance and put them in a ship that allows them to compete at a small level (that is, FW or in null fleets in a small support role). The alternative is, let them pay $45 over three months to achieve the same point in game, but by that point you have lost at least 80 percent of people (again that's for the early 2005 cohort; the source is Feng, Brandt, and Saha, 2007, "A long-term study of a popular MMORPG").
Moreover, to give people unallocated skill points would be an opportunity for them to get socialized, because you have to put thought into how to allocate them, don't know how to do it by yourself, and go out to seek advice how to do it.
My second question is also unanswered, which is how is the skill training you did in your first three months in any way related to effort?
Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005 So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch? According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine. What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is? |
|
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1627
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 16:54:01 -
[5631] - Quote
Danmal wrote:As I stated the retention rate was from players that started in 2005, an early cohort. While I could speculate what it is today, I would not have any data to support my claims, so I'll abstain. Apart from that you still have not answered my genuine questions: what game do you pay $45 for in which you basically cannot do much? What we are talking about here is really the difference between these two scenarios: Let them pay $45 in advance and put them in a ship that allows them to compete at a small level (that is, FW or in null fleets in a small support role). The alternative is, let them pay $45 over three months to achieve the same point in game, but by that point you have lost at least 80 percent of people (again that's for the early 2005 cohort; the source is Feng, Brandt, and Saha, 2007, "A long-term study of a popular MMORPG"). Moreover, to give people unallocated skill points would be an opportunity for them to get socialized, because you have to put thought into how to allocate them, don't know how to do it by yourself, and go out to seek advice how to do it. My second question is also unanswered, which is how is the skill training you did in your first three months in any way related to effort? Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005 So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch? According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine. What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is?
You can pvp pretty much from week 2 SP wise, realistically. The issue is understanding and knowledge, which is not helped by having more SP and that is going to take a whole lot longer. Actual new players need more time to get used to the game, learn its UI, mechanics, and gain experience. They are in no way helped by having more SP.
What you're stating is "it's really just better for the game" is, as it always is, just a lie. What you MEAN "it's better for me and my alts". |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
241
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 16:58:53 -
[5632] - Quote
Danmal wrote:Moreover, to give people unallocated skill points would be an opportunity for them to get socialized, because you have to put thought into how to allocate them, don't know how to do it by yourself, and go out to seek advice how to do it. So by giving someone skillpoints you think will make them more social - Most new players are aware of the newbie aspect and avoid drawing any such attention towards that very detail. The best approach would be to create crafted templates on creating - Combat pilots - Haulers - Miners - Scanning - Droneboat pilots.
Danmal wrote:My second question is also unanswered, which is how is the skill training you did in your first three months in any way related to effort? Its not the effort that's involved as your fully aware asking such an obtuse question, but the principal that was laid out by CCP very early on about time investment should never be superseded over a monetary one. You can bet everyone wished there was a fast forward button at some point in there EvE career, If its needed as an inclusion point from entry to the game how long with they still be playing when the long haul skills kick in from 20 days plus.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 17:12:22 -
[5633] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Danmal wrote:I can think that because if they limit it once and for all to newbros, then it does not fck up the core of the game, as you say. Because the newbro needs to be advanced to the core of the game first, so that s/he can participate in it.
Why do new players need to be quickly advanced to a "core level"? ...what ever that is. The only people who say that are people who live in lull sec and want all new players to join their already overgrown hordes. The majority of players live in HS and there is plenty to do at both the low and high level in HS. This system does very little to benefit new players in a meaningful way. It attempts to replace the character bazaar but fails because it penalises older players to a point where it is virtually unusable. New guy: o/ can i join your corp? Corp CEO: Sorry but you need 15 million sp to join us New guy: aww man Core CEO: Fear not! If you cave a few pillion sp spare, you can buy all the sp you need. New guy: OMG i'm now hooked on eve.
New guy: OMG i'm now hooked on eve. Yea right .... MORE like New Guy: But I thought it was only $12 a month to play .... ***K that I'm off to play another game |
Danmal
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
31
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 17:30:13 -
[5634] - Quote
The persistence with which you refuse to answer my two questions (what game you pay $45 for without really being able to play the game and what your effort was to get to, say, 5 M SP) amazes me and suggests that you don't have good arguments for either of them other than "that's how it's always been done." If you do have good arguments for how these two aspects of the game are attractive propositions for new player retention, I am still genuinely interested in your answers.
Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:As I stated the retention rate was from players that started in 2005, an early cohort. While I could speculate what it is today, I would not have any data to support my claims, so I'll abstain. Apart from that you still have not answered my genuine questions: what game do you pay $45 for in which you basically cannot do much? What we are talking about here is really the difference between these two scenarios: Let them pay $45 in advance and put them in a ship that allows them to compete at a small level (that is, FW or in null fleets in a small support role). The alternative is, let them pay $45 over three months to achieve the same point in game, but by that point you have lost at least 80 percent of people (again that's for the early 2005 cohort; the source is Feng, Brandt, and Saha, 2007, "A long-term study of a popular MMORPG"). Moreover, to give people unallocated skill points would be an opportunity for them to get socialized, because you have to put thought into how to allocate them, don't know how to do it by yourself, and go out to seek advice how to do it. My second question is also unanswered, which is how is the skill training you did in your first three months in any way related to effort? Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005 So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch? According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine. What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is? You can pvp pretty much from week 2 SP wise, realistically. The issue is understanding and knowledge, which is not helped by having more SP and that is going to take a whole lot longer. Actual new players need more time to get used to the game, learn its UI, mechanics, and gain experience. They are in no way helped by having more SP. What you're stating is "it's really just better for the game" is, as it always is, just a lie. What you MEAN "it's better for me and my alts".
|
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1627
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 17:34:40 -
[5635] - Quote
Danmal wrote:The persistence with which you refuse to answer my two questions (what game you pay $45 for without really being able to play the game and what your effort was to get to, say, 5 M SP) amazes me and suggests that you don't have good arguments for either of them other than "that's how it's always been done." If you do have good arguments for how these two aspects of the game are attractive propositions for new player retention, I am still genuinely interested in your answers. Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:As I stated the retention rate was from players that started in 2005, an early cohort. While I could speculate what it is today, I would not have any data to support my claims, so I'll abstain. Apart from that you still have not answered my genuine questions: what game do you pay $45 for in which you basically cannot do much? What we are talking about here is really the difference between these two scenarios: Let them pay $45 in advance and put them in a ship that allows them to compete at a small level (that is, FW or in null fleets in a small support role). The alternative is, let them pay $45 over three months to achieve the same point in game, but by that point you have lost at least 80 percent of people (again that's for the early 2005 cohort; the source is Feng, Brandt, and Saha, 2007, "A long-term study of a popular MMORPG"). Moreover, to give people unallocated skill points would be an opportunity for them to get socialized, because you have to put thought into how to allocate them, don't know how to do it by yourself, and go out to seek advice how to do it. My second question is also unanswered, which is how is the skill training you did in your first three months in any way related to effort? Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005 So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch? According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine. What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is? You can pvp pretty much from week 2 SP wise, realistically. The issue is understanding and knowledge, which is not helped by having more SP and that is going to take a whole lot longer. Actual new players need more time to get used to the game, learn its UI, mechanics, and gain experience. They are in no way helped by having more SP. What you're stating is "it's really just better for the game" is, as it always is, just a lie. What you MEAN "it's better for me and my alts".
It's called an MMO, where you expect and agree to character progress. Like other MMos which are exactly the same in that away. apart from the ones who went to **** and in a last ditch desperate attempt started to sell instant gratification, which didn't help one bit.
If you don't like the concept of character progress and growth, then feel free to stop playing MMO's or other RPG games and stick to shooters.
Also, stop with the special snowflake moronic "post above the quoted bit". It doesn't make you look special, it only makes it more difficult to read. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 17:42:30 -
[5636] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote: You can pvp pretty much from week 2 SP wise, realistically. The issue is understanding and knowledge, which is not helped by having more SP and that is going to take a whole lot longer. Actual new players need more time to get used to the game, learn its UI, mechanics, and gain experience. They are in no way helped by having more SP.
What you're stating is "it's really just better for the game" is, as it always is, just a lie. What you MEAN "it's better for me and my alts".
I think you are absolutely correct about extra SP not helping new players learn the game or even encouraging them to stick with the game.
I have played SWTOR: The PvE learning path and it is a path - so throw away the sandbox for this one - has some very compelling, exciting and entertaining gameplay. You stick with it because it is a large quest with a series of sub plots and ends with a gateway to team play & PVP (incursions)
It consists of a series of interrelated missions that teach you gameplay, some parts ( not compulsory) cannot be completed alone it takes team play to finish them and as you miss out on experience points this actively encourages you to communicate with other players - and these teams can be long lasting, you find yourself teaming up with the same people to do the next sub-quest.
Content gets people to stick with a game, PVP as an end game encourages people to stick around
FYI - The end game PVP in SWTOR sucked so I quit but not until I have run the PVE missions on a Toon for each character type but then its as intended - SWTOR has a decent churn rate and cash in on the PVE content |
Danmal
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
31
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 17:43:44 -
[5637] - Quote
Still no answers. And starting somebody at a higher level of SP compromises the idea of progress and growth how? It just puts the starting point at a different, that is higher, point.
Quote: It's called an MMO, where you expect and agree to character progress. Like other MMos which are exactly the same in that away. apart from the ones who went to **** and in a last ditch desperate attempt started to sell instant gratification, which didn't help one bit.
If you don't like the concept of character progress and growth, then feel free to stop playing MMO's or other RPG games and stick to shooters.
Also, stop with the special snowflake moronic "post above the quoted bit". It doesn't make you look special, it only makes it more difficult to read.
|
Danmal
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
31
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 17:47:33 -
[5638] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Danmal wrote:I can think that because if they limit it once and for all to newbros, then it does not fck up the core of the game, as you say. Because the newbro needs to be advanced to the core of the game first, so that s/he can participate in it.
Why do new players need to be quickly advanced to a "core level"? ...what ever that is. The only people who say that are people who live in lull sec and want all new players to join their already overgrown hordes. The majority of players live in HS and there is plenty to do at both the low and high level in HS. This system does very little to benefit new players in a meaningful way. It attempts to replace the character bazaar but fails because it penalises older players to a point where it is virtually unusable. New guy: o/ can i join your corp? Corp CEO: Sorry but you need 15 million sp to join us New guy: aww man Core CEO: Fear not! If you cave a few pillion sp spare, you can buy all the sp you need. New guy: OMG i'm now hooked on eve. New guy: OMG i'm now hooked on eve. Yea right .... MORE like New Guy: But I thought it was only $12 a month to play .... ***K that I'm off to play another game
Finally, a valid argument against. But we both know that we don't know the answer, that is, whether it would attract or repel new players. The answer would be in the data and would require testing. Your guess is as good as mine.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
241
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 17:49:19 -
[5639] - Quote
Danmal wrote:Still no answers. And starting somebody at a higher level of SP compromises the idea of progress and growth how? It just puts the starting point at a different, that is higher, point. Quote: It's called an MMO, where you expect and agree to character progress. Like other MMos which are exactly the same in that away. apart from the ones who went to **** and in a last ditch desperate attempt started to sell instant gratification, which didn't help one bit.
If you don't like the concept of character progress and growth, then feel free to stop playing MMO's or other RPG games and stick to shooters.
Also, stop with the special snowflake moronic "post above the quoted bit". It doesn't make you look special, it only makes it more difficult to read.
I did answer your 2 questions above, Also show me any other MMO which you can get for free with all expansions - Have 60 days time for the price of 1 month subscription and be playing in the bigger leagues of players within your first 30 free days.
T3 doctrine dessie fully tech2 fitted for PVP - sub 30 days, Just because your skills are limited don't assume its the games fault. EDIT
PS. Thats all for $15
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 17:56:55 -
[5640] - Quote
Danmal wrote:Still no answers. And starting somebody at a higher level of SP compromises the idea of progress and growth how? It just puts the starting point at a different, that is higher, point. Quote: It's called an MMO, where you expect and agree to character progress. Like other MMos which are exactly the same in that away. apart from the ones who went to **** and in a last ditch desperate attempt started to sell instant gratification, which didn't help one bit.
If you don't like the concept of character progress and growth, then feel free to stop playing MMO's or other RPG games and stick to shooters.
Also, stop with the special snowflake moronic "post above the quoted bit". It doesn't make you look special, it only makes it more difficult to read.
A higher level of SP is meaningless without the knowledge to use then
Example: Your chosen allegiance is to the Order of the Knight Templar and your school is illusion - If I give you 3million skill points are you better off training them into dark defense, swordsmanship, dueling or arcane lore - Meaningless - until you have the knowledge to make an educated choice.
The SP cannot be targeted to create a focused Toon - or aligned to a chosen path - Better off giving out a remap at 7mill SP |
|
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2102
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 19:41:27 -
[5641] - Quote
Danmal wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Danmal wrote:I can think that because if they limit it once and for all to newbros, then it does not fck up the core of the game, as you say. Because the newbro needs to be advanced to the core of the game first, so that s/he can participate in it.
Why do new players need to be quickly advanced to a "core level"? ...what ever that is. The only people who say that are people who live in lull sec and want all new players to join their already overgrown hordes. The majority of players live in HS and there is plenty to do at both the low and high level in HS. This system does very little to benefit new players in a meaningful way. It attempts to replace the character bazaar but fails because it penalises older players to a point where it is virtually unusable. New guy: o/ can i join your corp? Corp CEO: Sorry but you need 15 million sp to join us New guy: aww man Core CEO: Fear not! If you cave a few pillion sp spare, you can buy all the sp you need. New guy: OMG i'm now hooked on eve. New guy: OMG i'm now hooked on eve. Yea right .... MORE like New Guy: But I thought it was only $12 a month to play .... ***K that I'm off to play another game Finally, a valid argument against. But we both know that we don't know the answer, that is, whether it would attract or repel new players. The answer would be in the data and would require testing. Your guess is as good as mine.
Just like the old learning skills and attribute implants, players will view this as something you need to do to compete. I struggle to see how paying to train skills and then feeling as though you need to pay extra on top of that, to compete, could possibly attract new players.
I'll say it again; this feature is not aimed at new players, it is aimed at earning CCP more money. If ccp wanted to help new players get into the game faster, they would give them free sp for completing the tutorial, joining their first player corp or upon there third month in the game.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4105
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 20:24:58 -
[5642] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005 So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch? According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine. What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is?
The latest retention data are:
50% of new players never subscribe 40% subscribe and become PvErs; they rarely last longer than 2 years 10% become PvPrs and may stay like forever, usually longer than 4 years.
CCP's solution to that retention problem is to do everythign possible so PvErs become PvPrs. Considering why PvErs stay only 2 years or what could be done about that apparently never was in the plans.
So here we are, on the road to F2P as CCP treats 80% of their subscribers as more or less expendable.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12916
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 20:41:09 -
[5643] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005 So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch? According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine.
Well said.
Quote: What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is?
It gets worse, the people begging for the show to be an X-factor clone aren't conscious of the fact that that is exactly what they are asking for. Nor do they even consider what happens to most X-Factor clones (cancellation, because why watch an x-factor clone when x-factor actually exists). |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
241
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 20:55:09 -
[5644] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005 So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch? According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine. What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is? The latest retention data are: 50% of new players never subscribe 40% subscribe and become PvErs; they rarely last longer than 2 years 10% become PvPrs and may stay like forever, usually longer than 4 years. CCP's solution to that retention problem is to do everythign possible so PvErs become PvPrs. Considering why PvErs stay only 2 years or what could be done about that apparently never was in the plans. So here we are, on the road to F2P as CCP treats 80% of their subscribers as more or less expendable. I've always thought CCP's version of recruit a friend has been a bit of an arse about face way of doing things. What they could do is give the new player on subbing 1.5 or 2 mill skill points and the introducer a choice of a unique skin or ship not available to get any other way. Griefing / ganks plays a large part in new players departing to, so many times you here that someones lost hope because they were trying to something mundane as a lvl1 mission and been popped. Yes its all ***** n giggles for the do'ers but doesn't do much for the receivers.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 21:33:14 -
[5645] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005 So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch? According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine. What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is? The latest retention data are: 50% of new players never subscribe 40% subscribe and become PvErs; they rarely last longer than 2 years 10% become PvPrs and may stay like forever, usually longer than 4 years. CCP's solution to that retention problem is to do everythign possible so PvErs become PvPrs. Considering why PvErs stay only 2 years or what could be done about that apparently never was in the plans. So here we are, on the road to F2P as CCP treats 80% of their subscribers as more or less expendable. I've always thought CCP's version of recruit a friend has been a bit of an arse about face way of doing things. What they could do is give the new player on subbing 1.5 or 2 mill skill points and the introducer a choice of a unique skin or ship not available to get any other way. Griefing / ganks plays a large part in new players departing to, so many times you here that someones lost hope because they were trying to something mundane as a lvl1 mission and been popped. Yes its all ***** n giggles for the do'ers but doesn't do much for the receivers.
The best way to improve new player retention stats is to have them make friends with other players - Giving them SP or any other free stuff is not going to help them do this.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
242
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 21:50:18 -
[5646] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005 So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch? According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine. What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is? The latest retention data are: 50% of new players never subscribe 40% subscribe and become PvErs; they rarely last longer than 2 years 10% become PvPrs and may stay like forever, usually longer than 4 years. CCP's solution to that retention problem is to do everythign possible so PvErs become PvPrs. Considering why PvErs stay only 2 years or what could be done about that apparently never was in the plans. So here we are, on the road to F2P as CCP treats 80% of their subscribers as more or less expendable. I've always thought CCP's version of recruit a friend has been a bit of an arse about face way of doing things. What they could do is give the new player on subbing 1.5 or 2 mill skill points and the introducer a choice of a unique skin or ship not available to get any other way. Griefing / ganks plays a large part in new players departing to, so many times you here that someones lost hope because they were trying to something mundane as a lvl1 mission and been popped. Yes its all ***** n giggles for the do'ers but doesn't do much for the receivers. The best way to improve new player retention stats is to have them make friends with other players - Giving them SP or any other free stuff is not going to help them do this. So you mean your fine with receiving a plex or 30 days but the new player gets nothing, that's not how recruiting works in any of game that does this sort of thing.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4106
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 21:56:07 -
[5647] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005 So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch? According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine. What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is? The latest retention data are: 50% of new players never subscribe 40% subscribe and become PvErs; they rarely last longer than 2 years 10% become PvPrs and may stay like forever, usually longer than 4 years. CCP's solution to that retention problem is to do everythign possible so PvErs become PvPrs. Considering why PvErs stay only 2 years or what could be done about that apparently never was in the plans. So here we are, on the road to F2P as CCP treats 80% of their subscribers as more or less expendable. I've always thought CCP's version of recruit a friend has been a bit of an arse about face way of doing things. What they could do is give the new player on subbing 1.5 or 2 mill skill points and the introducer a choice of a unique skin or ship not available to get any other way. Griefing / ganks plays a large part in new players departing to, so many times you here that someones lost hope because they were trying to something mundane as a lvl1 mission and been popped. Yes its all ***** n giggles for the do'ers but doesn't do much for the receivers. The best way to improve new player retention stats is to have them make friends with other players - Giving them SP or any other free stuff is not going to help them do this.
The best way to improve new player retention is to ensure they can fully enjoy the game even if they don't make friends with other players -since that's exactly what most of new players will do.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 22:32:11 -
[5648] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:
The best way to improve new player retention stats is to have them make friends with other players - Giving them SP or any other free stuff is not going to help them do this.
The best way to improve new player retention is to ensure they can fully enjoy the game even if they don't make friends with other players -since that's exactly what most of new players will do.
You are describing the "40% that subscribe become PVE'rs & leave after 2 years" posted above
Do think they get bored & leave or is there another reason? - a game that feels like work maybe - I don't know
But CCP cannot provide a unlimited supply of fresh & new PvE content unless they follow the expansions route of the WOW type of MMO |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
242
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 22:44:51 -
[5649] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:
The best way to improve new player retention stats is to have them make friends with other players - Giving them SP or any other free stuff is not going to help them do this.
The best way to improve new player retention is to ensure they can fully enjoy the game even if they don't make friends with other players -since that's exactly what most of new players will do. You are describing the "40% that subscribe become PVE'rs & leave after 2 years" posted above Do think they get bored & leave or is there another reason? - a game that feels like work maybe - I don't know But CCP cannot provide a unlimited supply of fresh & new PvE content unless they follow the expansions route of the WOW type of MMO EDIT: We are getting off subject - So I should mention that it still stands that TSP does not help the learning experience of new players TSP is just a money grab, nothing more nothing less. To say other wise is just insulting there player base.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
4106
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 23:32:50 -
[5650] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:
The best way to improve new player retention stats is to have them make friends with other players - Giving them SP or any other free stuff is not going to help them do this.
The best way to improve new player retention is to ensure they can fully enjoy the game even if they don't make friends with other players -since that's exactly what most of new players will do. You are describing the "40% that subscribe become PVE'rs & leave after 2 years" posted above Do think they get bored & leave or is there another reason? - a game that feels like work maybe - I don't know But CCP cannot provide a unlimited supply of fresh & new PvE content unless they follow the expansions route of the WOW type of MMO EDIT: We are getting off subject - So I should mention that it still stands that TSP does not help the learning experience of new players
CCP could just have provided tools so PvE generated content. So what a player does in PvE matters. So players engaged in PvE can be enablers and instigators to other players.
Maybe, you know, even develop PvE content building tools that weren't a shoddy piece of shitcode from hell, so developing PvE was done like in all other games.
CCP could.
Now they're selling SP since that's what's left for them to earn money...
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1720
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 23:37:52 -
[5651] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:This is true - if you a willing to spend RL cash over and above the subscription for PLEX@store you will probably be able to do it for SP@Store
OF course if its SP@market it then follows that in game ISK rich players as well as RL rich players can do something a poor subs only player cannot - Does that not disadvantage & discourage players on a lower budget. newbies and the like? Simple point of distinction. If not tradable: - The RL poor and in game poor can't participate. - The RL poor and in game rich can't participate. - The RL rich and in game poor can participate. - The RL rich and in game rich can participate. -ALWAYS AVAILABLE FROM CCP - NOT SCAMABLE -NO CHANCE OF PRICE CHANGE FROM CCP If tradable: - The RL poor and in game poor can't participate. - The RL poor and in game rich can participate.- The RL rich and in game poor can participate. - The RL rich and in game rich can participate. - The RL poor and in game poor can solicit the help of the in game rich to participate.COULD BE LOST IF MOVING THEM TO / FROM NULL -SUPPLY AND DEMAND - EASY FOR LARGE ALLIANCE MANIPULATION / AVAILABILITY So not being tradable is demonstrably more exclusive. Not totally inclusive for those that don't want to make it a goal, but that doesn't seem to be the intent. You also missed a few things out on the non trade part, Not scammable, No chance of price fluctuation, if your soft enough - not losing them as cargo if your shipping them. Scammable is better than unavailable. Price fluctuation is better than unavailable. The reason they are better is that for a non participant neither has any meaning, and for a participant it simply means more options. Also why would you ever move it if it can't be traded? Why would it not go directly into your head since it serves no purpose in item form? Edit: Those should actually probably be added to the list of advantages of being tradable. Unavailable ??? Don't you understand english or something. if they were only available from CCP direct they would be available to everyone at a set price to redeem, They would never be unavailable. being a redeemed item they have no chance to be lost either if they were per account. This is what i meant about seeing something and twisting to your way of thinking. If they cannot be traded they are unavailable with in game means.
And as stated either is preferential to being unavailable. Allow me to explicitly add: "with in game effort" since apparently that needs to be spelled out as well.
Do you always go for the most pants on head interpretation of things said to you? |
Danmal
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
31
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 01:27:54 -
[5652] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: The latest retention data are:
50% of new players never subscribe 40% subscribe and become PvErs; they rarely last longer than 2 years 10% become PvPrs and may stay like forever, usually longer than 4 years.
CCP's solution to that retention problem is to do everythign possible so PvErs become PvPrs. Considering why PvErs stay only 2 years or what could be done about that apparently never was in the plans.
So here we are, on the road to F2P as CCP treats 80% of their subscribers as more or less expendable.
Is there a source for this information? If this were the new player retention, then I think my point of boosting new player retention might be moot, because 50 percent would seem extraordinarily high to me. But in the study I linked earlier (Feng, Brandt, and Saha, 2007) new player retention has been higher than this only for the earliest adopters of EVE (many of whom would have already been users during the beta and known that they would like and subscribe to the game). If this were true, then EVE would gain something around 1000 newbro subscribers per day and grumpycat bittervet retention might be the issue instead. Overall numbers would fix themselves and rebound if they can hang in long enough. |
Danmal
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
31
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 01:43:35 -
[5653] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote: I'll say it again; this feature is not aimed at new players, it is aimed at earning CCP more money. If ccp wanted to help new players get into the game faster, they would give them free sp for completing the tutorial, joining their first player corp or upon there third month in the game.
Oh, I am all for that, as are many others. But CCP has been reluctant to do this and only made minor changes (a slight bump in starting SP).
On the economics side, I think CCP actually need to earn more money in order to be(come) profitable (again). That's speculation since they do not (have to) publish their annual report anymore ever since they bought back the bond they once issued. The reason I bring this up is that I think suggesting that CCP are greedy moneygrabbers is mistaken. I believe it to be more about finding a better survival strategy, really. |
Gregor Parud
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Posted - 2015.11.12 01:56:20 -
[5654] - Quote
There's lot of people spouting numbers and "facts" that aren't facts. Stop trying so hard, it's not working.
p.s. it's kinda funny how there's a switch of posters ever so often, and trying it a different way. It's almost as if they're alts trying to use a different angle. |
Gregor Parud
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Posted - 2015.11.12 02:01:34 -
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Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005 So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch? According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine. What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is? The latest retention data are: 50% of new players never subscribe 40% subscribe and become PvErs; they rarely last longer than 2 years 10% become PvPrs and may stay like forever, usually longer than 4 years. CCP's solution to that retention problem is to do everythign possible so PvErs become PvPrs. Considering why PvErs stay only 2 years or what could be done about that apparently never was in the plans. So here we are, on the road to F2P as CCP treats 80% of their subscribers as more or less expendable.
There you go again with the drama, also please state your sources.
Even if:
People who grind PVE hardly play a single MMO that long, they move on to the next grind game so EVE still holding them for that long is actually quite good. And then the 10% who remain for more than 4 years (again, assuming those numbers are correct) that's pretty good for a niche product. Show me a recent MMO that has those stats.
You keep spouting those numbers as if they're bad, they're not. They're actually really good. And your end conclusion on F2P is just as silly and mistaken as your assessment of those numbers. It's not like your agenda is showing or anything. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 04:43:05 -
[5656] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005 So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch? According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine. What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is? The latest retention data are: 50% of new players never subscribe 40% subscribe and become PvErs; they rarely last longer than 2 years 10% become PvPrs and may stay like forever, usually longer than 4 years. CCP's solution to that retention problem is to do everythign possible so PvErs become PvPrs. Considering why PvErs stay only 2 years or what could be done about that apparently never was in the plans. So here we are, on the road to F2P as CCP treats 80% of their subscribers as more or less expendable. There you go again with the drama, also please state your sources. Even if: People who grind PVE hardly play a single MMO that long, they move on to the next grind game so EVE still holding them for that long is actually quite good. And then the 10% who remain for more than 4 years (again, assuming those numbers are correct) that's pretty good for a niche product. Show me a recent MMO that has those stats. You keep spouting those numbers as if they're bad, they're not. They're actually really good. And your end conclusion on F2P is just as silly and mistaken as your assessment of those numbers. It's not like your agenda is showing or anything.
Here's some figures This is data for the Free to Play financial model - if you're empire building you had better get the tools to get young players into the best equipment quickly as the drop-off/churn is highest on F2P
https://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/understanding-mmo-retention/?mc_cid=a656805038&mc_eid=f824e1e64e |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
229
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 05:43:48 -
[5657] - Quote
Danmal wrote:Rek Seven wrote: I'll say it again; this feature is not aimed at new players, it is aimed at earning CCP more money. If ccp wanted to help new players get into the game faster, they would give them free sp for completing the tutorial, joining their first player corp or upon there third month in the game.
Oh, I am all for that, as are many others. But CCP has been reluctant to do this and only made minor changes (a slight bump in starting SP). On the economics side, I think CCP actually need to earn more money in order to be(come) profitable (again). That's speculation since they do not (have to) publish their annual report anymore ever since they bought back the bond they once issued. The reason I bring this up is that I think suggesting that CCP are greedy moneygrabbers is mistaken. I believe it to be more about finding a better survival strategy, really.
Or CCP could focus on creating a game that centralized on both PVE and PVPers instead of just pure PVPer who whined because everyone is doing PVE. If CCP begins updating Lev 4's for example and fix the empire LP stores then I believe the PCU would make a rebound back up to 2013 levels.
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Danmal
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
31
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Posted - 2015.11.12 05:48:28 -
[5658] - Quote
Found the source. The 50 percent is for players that already have an initial subscription post trial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbHqFgn4SOw&feature=youtu.be&t=16m24s Note that Rise speaks about the retention of players who already have a subscription, not about players converting from the trial into a subscription, which I think is a lot lower. See also: http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-seven-percent-solution.html
Based on data from 2012, you can estimate the rate of trials converting to subscriptions to be somewhere in the range of 5 to 10 percent. Today it is probably lower. In a time when trials go down (see eve-offline.net), improving the conversion rate is one way to get more new people to play EVE (the other of course being to try and boost trials themselves).
All I am suggesting is that allowing pilots to be functional as of the conversion of their trial is something that would probably be beneficial to EVE. Personally, I would prefer they just handed SP to the trial converters (that prospect might also get trialists to convert faster). As CCP have been reluctant to put newbros in this place right away, they might as well throw it in with the trial conversion (and increase the price of the conversion, which costs $5 anyway for nothing in return at all if I understand it correctly). And it would in some sense be consistent with your theory of effort, because now the individual has taken the effort (or commitment) to go from trial to subscription.
Gregor Parud wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005 So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch? According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine. What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is? The latest retention data are: 50% of new players never subscribe 40% subscribe and become PvErs; they rarely last longer than 2 years 10% become PvPrs and may stay like forever, usually longer than 4 years. CCP's solution to that retention problem is to do everythign possible so PvErs become PvPrs. Considering why PvErs stay only 2 years or what could be done about that apparently never was in the plans. So here we are, on the road to F2P as CCP treats 80% of their subscribers as more or less expendable. There you go again with the drama, also please state your sources. Even if: People who grind PVE hardly play a single MMO that long, they move on to the next grind game so EVE still holding them for that long is actually quite good. And then the 10% who remain for more than 4 years (again, assuming those numbers are correct) that's pretty good for a niche product. Show me a recent MMO that has those stats. You keep spouting those numbers as if they're bad, they're not. They're actually really good. And your end conclusion on F2P is just as silly and mistaken as your assessment of those numbers. It's not like your agenda is showing or anything.
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Gregor Parud
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Posted - 2015.11.12 10:03:22 -
[5659] - Quote
Ok, now think of all the sub based MMO's you've ever tried (if your count doesn't get beyond 5 you're lacking so much experience and understanding on MMOs you should probably stay out of this discussion altogether). Of those, how many do you still play after 2 years. I bet you don't get to 40% which means that EVE does, on average, better. It's the same for 4 years and 10%, I BET that you don't still play 10% of all the sub based MMOs you once tried.
EVE's retention numbers are FINE, they're in fact really good. There's nothing wrong with someone, or a majority of people, not liking a product simply because the product isn't aimed at them. This whole "must be liked by more people" is the same hilariously ****** logic as "companies always much grow bigger" nonsense people keep yapping about, guess what brought us the economy crash. Companies that didn't fall for that hype "must expand, lets borrow money to grow!" silliness still did and do fine after 2008, because they didn't fall for idiot logic and kept doing business in a smart way.
EVE is a niche product, always has been, and that's what it should stay because that's the only way it's going to do well. People who cannot understand that logic should stop trying to type :words: in threads like these.
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Danmal
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
31
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Posted - 2015.11.12 12:10:03 -
[5660] - Quote
Yes, EVE is niche, and will and should probably stay this way. But ACUs are way down from their peak and with it likely subscriptions. In a high fixed cost business model like a game developer you become unprofitable quickly when you start losing users. This brings with it the implicit question to which you will not address your mind: how do you stay or become again profitable as a company if you have lost/are losing users in a high fixed costs business model. What you call "hilariously ****** logic" is an economic necessity, and the question is how to achieve it. There are five ways I can see to achieve it:
i.) increase trials, holding conversion rate constant (although typically I would expect these two to be negatively correlated implying increased trial user acquisition costs ii.) increase post-trial newbro retention iii.) increase oldbro retention; iv.) monetize the user base; v.) cut costs (which would likely include R&D and people in the case of CCP).
That the retention rate once you have them hooked may be good is one thing. Whether you hook them in the first place is another. But you seem somehow reluctant to accept that a company needs to earn money to survive and thrive. Hence, let me pose this question: if you were CCP and in a position to have to either earn more money or cut costs in one of five ways listed above (or more if you see more), how would you do it?
Gregor Parud wrote:Ok, now think of all the sub based MMO's you've ever tried (if your count doesn't get beyond 5 you're lacking so much experience and understanding on MMOs you should probably stay out of this discussion altogether). Of those, how many do you still play after 2 years. I bet you don't get to 40% which means that EVE does, on average, better. It's the same for 4 years and 10%, I BET that you don't still play 10% of all the sub based MMOs you once tried.
EVE's retention numbers are FINE, they're in fact really good. There's nothing wrong with someone, or a majority of people, not liking a product simply because the product isn't aimed at them. This whole "must be liked by more people" is the same hilariously ****** logic as "companies always much grow bigger" nonsense people keep yapping about, guess what brought us the economy crash. Companies that didn't fall for that hype "must expand, lets borrow money to grow!" silliness still did and do fine after 2008, because they didn't fall for idiot logic and kept doing business in a smart way.
EVE is a niche product, always has been, and that's what it should stay because that's the only way it's going to do well. People who cannot understand that logic should stop trying to type :words: in threads like these.
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Gregor Parud
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Posted - 2015.11.12 14:15:47 -
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They're losing subs for many reasons:
- pvp minded players slowly stop trusting CCP to keep this a PVP centric game - newer PVE players who got pulled in start to realise that as a pure PVE game EVE is very limited, they want continued content upgrades - SOV/0.0 related changes taking too long - people have less alts due to jump drive changes - war on botting
EVE was bloated based on the hype that came past Incarnage, EVE's resurgence pulled in many folks, they tried hard to get more new players in regardless of their play style and they lured with PVE and dumbed down mechanics. Those people simply stopped bothering and moved on for various reason, one being that EVE just can't offer what more PVE centric grind/content MMOs can but also because... they just move on to something new.
So we're back to 2009ish PCU, how is that a problem? Does this mean that CCP is going to get in trouble for that with manpower etc, yes it will but frankly I don't see a problem in that. They have a bunch of extra projects and hired a ton of people to make EVE more palatable to the "average player", but I care about EVE not the extra projects and EVE is not meant for the average player so you can cut that away and EVE will do JUST FINE.
They just keeping putting themselves in situations where the obvious short term solution seems to be to butcher the goose that lays the golden eggs. And then they even contemplate doing it....
You pull people in by giving them a clear idea of what they're getting in to, being proud of being niche is good especially so if there's really no competition. You keep them playing by making sure you weren't lying when you did that and uphold the premise and core concepts of the game. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
195
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 15:48:14 -
[5662] - Quote
Danmal wrote: The reason I bring this up is that I think suggesting that CCP are greedy moneygrabbers is mistaken. I believe it to be more about finding a better survival strategy, really.
Fair point, but let's consider that gaining more subs while not pissing off existing players enough to quit is probably better than implementing a system that will extract more money players but be poor for new player retention and **** many vets off causing them to consider quitting.
Improvements to the game that bring in new players and make existing players happy but cost nothing more than the sub fee will make more money than fleecing the last few dollars/euros/pounds/yen out of an ever decreasing playerbase.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
244
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 17:56:42 -
[5663] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:They're losing subs for many reasons:
- pvp minded players slowly stop trusting CCP to keep this a PVP centric game - newer PVE players who got pulled in start to realise that as a pure PVE game EVE is very limited, they want continued content upgrades - SOV/0.0 related changes taking too long - people have less alts due to jump drive changes - war on botting
EVE was bloated based on the hype that came past Incarnage, EVE's resurgence pulled in many folks, they tried hard to get more new players in regardless of their play style and they lured with PVE and dumbed down mechanics. Those people simply stopped bothering and moved on for various reason, one being that EVE just can't offer what more PVE centric grind/content MMOs can but also because... they just move on to something new.
So we're back to 2009ish PCU, how is that a problem? Does this mean that CCP is going to get in trouble for that with manpower etc, yes it will but frankly I don't see a problem in that. They have a bunch of extra projects and hired a ton of people to make EVE more palatable to the "average player", but I care about EVE not the extra projects and EVE is not meant for the average player so you can cut that away and EVE will do JUST FINE.
They just keeping putting themselves in situations where the obvious short term solution seems to be to butcher the goose that lays the golden eggs. And then they even contemplate doing it....
You pull people in by giving them a clear idea of what they're getting in to, being proud of being niche is good especially so if there's really no competition. You keep them playing by making sure you weren't lying when you did that and uphold the premise and core concepts of the game. Whilst i agree with most of what you say, EvE was never or can't ever be pure PVP, however small the PVE content maybe it's a transitional barrier for a lot of players and the only thing for others. Without this catchment mechanism you wouldn't have people diversifying into PVP. A game can be based around content created by the developers - But pure PVP content can only be created by the masses.
Games today are created by a principal dev's refer to as " Easy to learn - Harder to master" We don't have that luxury in eve as it doesn't apply anyway you try to fit it.
Our intro to eve, though much improved on doesn't instill a feeling you've achieved anything when you have completed it because the points have already been applied to your character with no effort. If the NPE was started with your character having zero skill points, In a basic ship and each part rewarded you with skillpoints being automatically added to there respective sections and the modules that are needed being fitted to said ship for the next part your actually seeing what is happening and will gain a sense reward for your effort. It doesn't make any difference what so ever practically, psychologically rewarding though. The same when you reach the end of it , having a bumper reward of say 1 million skill points and have some way of how it could be spent to further a chosen career path.
You can have change without destroying something, but without diversity things only stagnate. A liitle give and take in the beginning of the eve experience may make alot of difference to how they view continuing there experience further.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
27
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Posted - 2015.11.12 18:54:42 -
[5664] - Quote
I think all this talk of new player experience is a bit of a red herring
Given that 1 plex = 1 x Transneural Skill Extractor (harvests 500K SP) = 1 x Transneural Skill Packet (Gives 500K or less)
Now, Once the extra SP has been burnt off from all the redundant Bot-toons and unwanted skills (?) the market will settle into the farmed value of SP. Unless you have reached the peak of your chosen path in which case you could feasibly farm you main toon without a multiple training cert - the cost of producing these packets would be about:
1 Plex for Multiple Training (1.5 million SP a month training up the cheap books dropped from sites) 3 plex to convert into skill packets
You get the equivalent of 10 days training for the ISK value of about 1.5 PLEX (inc a little markup)
A New player with a few SP already under the belt wanting to get into a Cloaky-Scany-Hacky covert frigate required to join a noob friendly WH corp [Electronics Upgrades, Covert Ops, Astrometric Rangefinding, Astrometrics, Survey, Archaeology & Hacking Hacking ]
Take little over 30days ($12 subscription) or if you want to do it instantly about $48 over what you are already paying. That's not new player friendly - Most would wait 30-40days & get put off thinking that it is going to cost more & more to train the bigger & better stuff
I could see most of them being purchased by mid range characters, Those who can afford occasionally to spend the ISK but that's not cash-Plex and the only thing that will do is force the ISK price of PLEX up making players drop 2nd accounts.
With plex inflation one of the goals I've heard most about from new players is PlEXing a 2nd account - That goal gets harder to achieve. |
Gregor Parud
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Posted - 2015.11.12 19:00:24 -
[5665] - Quote
[quote=Levi BelvarWhilst i agree with most of what you say, EvE was never or can't ever be pure PVP[/quote]
Oh no, never said the game should be 100% PVP, that would be silly, but what has been happening the past few years is that CCP tried to make EVE more mainstream because they wanted more players. The only way to do that is to move away from its niche where the game is very competitive and requires (brain) effort to get stuff done and turn it into something much easier. More protection, more hand holding, easier mechanics.
And they did indeed attracts more players and a few years later these new players start to rally for the stuff they're so used to in other MMOs: P2W, P2Advance, "more pve content", instant lvl 60 characters. A bunch of them are posting in this thread. They're also the players who sit in their massive 0.0 alliances being bored to **** because any personal initiative or thought is just not going to happen. Actual pvpers would break free from that and create some havoc of their own and by doing so create content and enjoy themselves. Instead they just sit there grinding to their next Supercap and creating alts to hide behind, be in CODE and shoot at people who won't shoot back. So PVE itself is fine, it's more about the mind set of the player.
CCP lured in the mainstream player and anyone who has a working brain expected this backlash because EVE simply can't deliver what those are looking for. And in the effort to appease to that type of player they made the game worse for the customers it already had. And now, in a final frantic attempt, they simply look at WOW's account management options and try to copy what they see there: instant lvl 60 cha,r so they try and translate that to EVE: buying SP.
The lower PCU is fine. The game doesn't somehow magically become more fun or better to play if we'd have a PCU of 60K instead of the 30 we have atm. People are just using this opportunity to try and gain ground for their hilariously obvious and ****** ideas, using "it would be better for the game" or "we'd have more players" as excuses to try and make their brain farts sound valid. |
Gregor Parud
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Posted - 2015.11.12 19:04:17 -
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Iowa Banshee wrote:I think all this talk of new player experience is a bit of a red herring
Given that 1 plex = 1 x Transneural Skill Extractor (harvests 500K SP) = 1 x Transneural Skill Packet (Gives 500K or less)
Now, Once the extra SP has been burnt off from all the redundant Bot-toons and unwanted skills (?) the market will settle into the farmed value of SP. Unless you have reached the peak of your chosen path in which case you could feasibly farm you main toon without a multiple training cert - the cost of producing these packets would be about:
1 Plex for Multiple Training (1.5 million SP a month training up the cheap books dropped from sites) 3 plex to convert into skill packets
You get the equivalent of 10 days training for the ISK value of about 1.5 PLEX (inc a little markup)
A New player with a few SP already under the belt wanting to get into a Cloaky-Scany-Hacky covert frigate required to join a noob friendly WH corp [Electronics Upgrades, Covert Ops, Astrometric Rangefinding, Astrometrics, Survey, Archaeology & Hacking Hacking ]
Take little over 30days ($12 subscription) or if you want to do it instantly about $48 over what you are already paying. That's not new player friendly - Most would wait 30-40days & get put off thinking that it is going to cost more & more to train the bigger & better stuff
I could see most of them being purchased by mid range characters, Those who can afford occasionally to spend the ISK but that's not cash-Plex and the only thing that will do is force the ISK price of PLEX up making players drop 2nd accounts.
With plex inflation one of the goals I've heard most about from new players is PlEXing a 2nd account - That goal gets harder to achieve.
You're forgetting about large entities who have so much isk that they don't know what to do with it, they can't cram more people into their fleets so instead they will try and use their buying power to increase the quality of their fleets. And the business you can get from that is a nice side effect... |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
244
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 19:32:30 -
[5667] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:I think all this talk of new player experience is a bit of a red herring
Given that 1 plex = 1 x Transneural Skill Extractor (harvests 500K SP) = 1 x Transneural Skill Packet (Gives 500K or less)
Now, Once the extra SP has been burnt off from all the redundant Bot-toons and unwanted skills (?) the market will settle into the farmed value of SP. Unless you have reached the peak of your chosen path in which case you could feasibly farm you main toon without a multiple training cert - the cost of producing these packets would be about:
1 Plex for Multiple Training (1.5 million SP a month training up the cheap books dropped from sites) 3 plex to convert into skill packets
You get the equivalent of 10 days training for the ISK value of about 1.5 PLEX (inc a little markup)
A New player with a few SP already under the belt wanting to get into a Cloaky-Scany-Hacky covert frigate required to join a noob friendly WH corp [Electronics Upgrades, Covert Ops, Astrometric Rangefinding, Astrometrics, Survey, Archaeology & Hacking Hacking ]
Take little over 30days ($12 subscription) or if you want to do it instantly about $48 over what you are already paying. That's not new player friendly - Most would wait 30-40days & get put off thinking that it is going to cost more & more to train the bigger & better stuff
I could see most of them being purchased by mid range characters, Those who can afford occasionally to spend the ISK but that's not cash-Plex and the only thing that will do is force the ISK price of PLEX up making players drop 2nd accounts.
With plex inflation one of the goals I've heard most about from new players is PlEXing a 2nd account - That goal gets harder to achieve. We were on about a way to get players interested more / convert from trial, not using the fleece the current player base more approach. Yours are expensive to aren't they, most are basing figures for 1 plex = 4 TSP / 7.5 days 500k x 4 = 30 days + extractor cost if thats 1 plex for the extractor to theyre going to be silly money
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
27
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 21:11:49 -
[5668] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:I think all this talk of new player experience is a bit of a red herring
Given that 1 plex = 1 x Transneural Skill Extractor (harvests 500K SP) = 1 x Transneural Skill Packet (Gives 500K or less)
Now, Once the extra SP has been burnt off from all the redundant Bot-toons and unwanted skills (?) the market will settle into the farmed value of SP. Unless you have reached the peak of your chosen path in which case you could feasibly farm you main toon without a multiple training cert - the cost of producing these packets would be about:
1 Plex for Multiple Training (1.5 million SP a month training up the cheap books dropped from sites) 3 plex to convert into skill packets
You get the equivalent of 10 days training for the ISK value of about 1.5 PLEX (inc a little markup)
A New player with a few SP already under the belt wanting to get into a Cloaky-Scany-Hacky covert frigate required to join a noob friendly WH corp [Electronics Upgrades, Covert Ops, Astrometric Rangefinding, Astrometrics, Survey, Archaeology & Hacking Hacking ]
Take little over 30days ($12 subscription) or if you want to do it instantly about $48 over what you are already paying. That's not new player friendly - Most would wait 30-40days & get put off thinking that it is going to cost more & more to train the bigger & better stuff
I could see most of them being purchased by mid range characters, Those who can afford occasionally to spend the ISK but that's not cash-Plex and the only thing that will do is force the ISK price of PLEX up making players drop 2nd accounts.
With plex inflation one of the goals I've heard most about from new players is PlEXing a 2nd account - That goal gets harder to achieve. We were on about a way to get players interested more / convert from trial, not using the fleece the current player base more approach. Yours are expensive to aren't they, most are basing figures for 1 plex = 4 TSP / 7.5 days 500k x 4 = 30 days + extractor cost if thats 1 plex for the extractor to theyre going to be silly money
The blog says A Transneural Skill Packet is created by extracting some of your trained skills and combining them with a GÇÿTransneural Skill ExtractorGÇÖ which can be purchased in the New Eden Store for Aurum (The Transneural Skill Extractor is analogous to the PLEX service fee in the character bazaar).Both Transneural Skill Extractors and Transneural Skill Packets can be freely traded on the market for ISK
I read it as I plex = 1 TSP -
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1721
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 21:16:52 -
[5669] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:We were on about a way to get players interested more / convert from trial, not using the fleece the current player base more approach. Yours are expensive to aren't they, most are basing figures for 1 plex = 4 TSP / 7.5 days 500k x 4 = 30 days + extractor cost if thats 1 plex for the extractor to theyre going to be silly money Some of us are of the opinion 1 plex = 4 TSP is still crazy expensive (at that rate we're being double charged for the SP being transfered). Consider selling a 5m SP toon is roughly equivalent to 700 AUR for every 500k SP (That's 5 TSPs/PLEX). That's low end on the character bazaar and IMHO not a good place for balancing the 2 features if accessibility is a goal.
I'd be willing to take back anything I said about this being more than a money grab were they priced like that.
100AUR or there about should be fine, the low price incentivizes breaking up lower SP characters into packets rather than selling whole and as such helps incentivize more supply on the market vs the Bazaar, which in turn should make the market that much harder to monopolize.
Iowa Banshee wrote:The blog says A Transneural Skill Packet is created by extracting some of your trained skills and combining them with a GÇÿTransneural Skill ExtractorGÇÖ which can be purchased in the New Eden Store for Aurum (The Transneural Skill Extractor is analogous to the PLEX service fee in the character bazaar).Both Transneural Skill Extractors and Transneural Skill Packets can be freely traded on the market for ISK
I read it as I plex = 1 TSP - "Analogous to" != equivalent in cost.
As I read this, what's being given is the rationale for charging AUR, not a statement of actual cost expectation. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
198
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 21:29:21 -
[5670] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:if thats 1 plex for the extractor to theyre going to be silly money
This whole thread will seem pretty redundant if that is the case, almost nobody with use them, massive CCP trollage |
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
244
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 22:26:02 -
[5671] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:We were on about a way to get players interested more / convert from trial, not using the fleece the current player base more approach. Yours are expensive to aren't they, most are basing figures for 1 plex = 4 TSP / 7.5 days 500k x 4 = 30 days + extractor cost if thats 1 plex for the extractor to theyre going to be silly money Some of us are of the opinion 1 plex = 4 TSP is still crazy expensive (at that rate we're being double charged for the SP being transfered). Consider selling a 5m SP toon is roughly equivalent to 700 AUR for every 500k SP (That's 5 TSPs/PLEX). That's low end on the character bazaar and IMHO not a good place for balancing the 2 features if accessibility is a goal. I'd be willing to take back anything I said about this being more than a money grab were they priced like that. 100AUR or there about should be fine, the low price incentivizes breaking up lower SP characters into packets rather than selling whole and as such helps incentivize more supply on the market vs the Bazaar, which in turn should make the market that much harder to monopolize. At the moment a plex is 1.2 bill and 30 days of Optimized training returns just under 2 mill skill points @500k = 300 mill + extractor cost for 1 TSP.
Can you break it down any other way ???
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1721
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 22:35:52 -
[5672] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:At the moment a plex is 1.2 bill and 30 days of Optimized training returns just under 2 mill skill points @500k = 300 mill + extractor cost for 1 TSP.
Can you break it down any other way ??? Made a mistake. Iowa Banshee made the relation of 1 TSP as being = to1 PLEX, and I mentally translated that to extractor rather than TSP (since TSPs have no reason to have that price as you point out or explicit price at all). I carried that mistake on to your post as well, responding as if you were talking about extractors rather than TSPs.
That was all my mistake. Your numbers are fine. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
244
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 22:40:56 -
[5673] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:At the moment a plex is 1.2 bill and 30 days of Optimized training returns just under 2 mill skill points @500k = 300 mill + extractor cost for 1 TSP.
Can you break it down any other way ??? Made a mistake. Iowa Banshee made the relation of 1 TSP as being = to1 PLEX, and I mentally translated that to extractor rather than TSP in error (since TSPs have no reason to have that price as you point out or any explicit price at all). I carried that mistake on to your post as well, responding as if you were talking about extractors rather than TSPs. That was all my mistake. Your numbers are fine. Serenity plex price 7 bill apiece =1.75 bill + extractor cost per unit
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 07:17:48 -
[5674] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:if thats 1 plex for the extractor to theyre going to be silly money This whole thread will seem pretty redundant if that is the case, almost nobody with use them, massive CCP trollage And then it can go the way of teams. A lot of people would love that right?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Zakks
Zakks Shop
17
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 07:53:32 -
[5675] - Quote
Will the skill packets be a tradeable item? Contracts too? Don't like the idea of either, tbh...
|
Furyan Vakko
Pizza Delivery Express
1
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 10:18:08 -
[5676] - Quote
Any ideas on when this is coming to Eve ?
|
Nometh Xergent
1331
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 11:08:21 -
[5677] - Quote
This would destroy the game for new player, since time is really something important in eve, it is the only thing that is making this game stand out from any other ****-mmo that comes up every year and crashes the next. Time is everything, and time is eve. Serious-lee now, for the love of bruce, just dont.
GÇ£IGÇÖve always loathed the necessity of sleep. Like death, it puts even the most powerful men on their backs.GÇ¥
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1862
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 11:23:10 -
[5678] - Quote
Furyan Vakko wrote:Any ideas on when this is coming to Eve ? ~1 year before they shutdown the servers
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
YouAreMyBounty Sarn
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 12:24:39 -
[5679] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:We were on about a way to get players interested more / convert from trial, not using the fleece the current player base more approach. Yours are expensive to aren't they, most are basing figures for 1 plex = 4 TSP / 7.5 days 500k x 4 = 30 days + extractor cost if thats 1 plex for the extractor to theyre going to be silly money Some of us are of the opinion 1 plex = 4 TSP is still crazy expensive (at that rate we're being double charged for the SP being transfered). Consider selling a 5m SP toon is roughly equivalent to 700 AUR for every 500k SP (That's 5 TSPs/PLEX). That's low end on the character bazaar and IMHO not a good place for balancing the 2 features if accessibility is a goal. I'd be willing to take back anything I said about this being more than a money grab were they priced like that. 100AUR or there about should be fine, the low price incentivizes breaking up lower SP characters into packets rather than selling whole and as such helps incentivize more supply on the market vs the Bazaar, which in turn should make the market that much harder to monopolize. Iowa Banshee wrote:The blog says A Transneural Skill Packet is created by extracting some of your trained skills and combining them with a GÇÿTransneural Skill ExtractorGÇÖ which can be purchased in the New Eden Store for Aurum (The Transneural Skill Extractor is analogous to the PLEX service fee in the character bazaar).Both Transneural Skill Extractors and Transneural Skill Packets can be freely traded on the market for ISK
I read it as I plex = 1 TSP - "Analogous to" != equivalent in cost. As I read this, what's being given is the rationale for charging AUR, not a statement of actual cost expectation.
All of this is based on speculation. Nobody has stated how much it will cost per packet. And market prices are down to players to decide. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
244
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 12:55:18 -
[5680] - Quote
YouAreMyBounty Sarn wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:We were on about a way to get players interested more / convert from trial, not using the fleece the current player base more approach. Yours are expensive to aren't they, most are basing figures for 1 plex = 4 TSP / 7.5 days 500k x 4 = 30 days + extractor cost if thats 1 plex for the extractor to theyre going to be silly money Some of us are of the opinion 1 plex = 4 TSP is still crazy expensive (at that rate we're being double charged for the SP being transfered). Consider selling a 5m SP toon is roughly equivalent to 700 AUR for every 500k SP (That's 5 TSPs/PLEX). That's low end on the character bazaar and IMHO not a good place for balancing the 2 features if accessibility is a goal. I'd be willing to take back anything I said about this being more than a money grab were they priced like that. 100AUR or there about should be fine, the low price incentivizes breaking up lower SP characters into packets rather than selling whole and as such helps incentivize more supply on the market vs the Bazaar, which in turn should make the market that much harder to monopolize. Iowa Banshee wrote:The blog says A Transneural Skill Packet is created by extracting some of your trained skills and combining them with a GÇÿTransneural Skill ExtractorGÇÖ which can be purchased in the New Eden Store for Aurum (The Transneural Skill Extractor is analogous to the PLEX service fee in the character bazaar).Both Transneural Skill Extractors and Transneural Skill Packets can be freely traded on the market for ISK
I read it as I plex = 1 TSP - "Analogous to" != equivalent in cost. As I read this, what's being given is the rationale for charging AUR, not a statement of actual cost expectation. All of this is based on speculation. Nobody has stated how much it will cost per packet. And market prices are down to players to decide. Its base price is dictated on what the plex trends at which at present is 1.2 bill, which i can only see it rising because of this feature being implemented. 7.5 days (500k @ optimum training ) x 4 (30 days ) + extractor cost ( unknown value ) + profit margin ( there has to be one ) so at today's value for 1 TSP = 300 million isk + extractor cost + profit margin.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
27
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 16:38:34 -
[5681] - Quote
With the SP train rate at about 1.5 mill a month maybe 1 plex = 3 extractors Seems to match the 500k per packet model
*3 packets |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
244
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 16:51:29 -
[5682] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:With the SP train rate at about 1.5 mill a month maybe 1 plex = 3 extractors Seems to match the 500k per packet model
*3 packets
Optimum is 2700 hr x 24 (64800 ) x 30 = 1.944 million almost 4 packets a month, Plex is going to effect the extractor, The plex gives you a base price for the TSP.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
510
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 16:54:52 -
[5683] - Quote
Question about extracting skill points.
If you have 5.6 million SP, can you extract all the SP down to 100k, down to 4.6, or only to 5.1?
Thank you |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
244
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 16:58:40 -
[5684] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:Question about extracting skill points.
If you have 5.6 million SP, can you extract all the SP down to 100k, down to 4.6, or only to 5.1?
Thank you
Can't go below 5 mill to extract from but you can use them on a new player from creation.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
27
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 18:21:04 -
[5685] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:With the SP train rate at about 1.5 mill a month maybe 1 plex = 3 extractors Seems to match the 500k per packet model
*3 packets Optimum is 2700 hr x 24 (64800 ) x 30 = 1.944 million almost 4 packets a month, Plex isn't going to effect the extractor, The plex gives you a base price for the TSP.
I don't think there will be enough of a return on investment to justify the implants that give 2700/hr
I sub my accounts and don't mind the cost but there are people in my other corp that sub one acct & Plex their other the 1.2bill for a plex is pushing them to where they may have to drop their second account
If this inflatesthe price of PLEX further people will start to drop 2nd accounts and login's will drop further - but ii will please the PVP players who complain about booster alts tho they may have more to complain about when they have no-one to fight
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
244
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 18:37:18 -
[5686] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:With the SP train rate at about 1.5 mill a month maybe 1 plex = 3 extractors Seems to match the 500k per packet model
*3 packets Optimum is 2700 hr x 24 (64800 ) x 30 = 1.944 million almost 4 packets a month, Plex isn't going to effect the extractor, The plex gives you a base price for the TSP. I don't think there will be enough of a return on investment to justify the implants that give 2700/hr I sub my accounts and don't mind the cost but there are people in my other corp that sub one acct & Plex their other the 1.2bill for a plex is pushing them to where they may have to drop their second account If this inflates the price of PLEX further people will start to drop 2nd accounts and login's will drop further - but it will please the PVP players who complain about booster alts tho they may have more to complain about when they have no-one to fight Implants are going to bother the wealth, this is going to be one of the biggest passive income generators ever. All the people see are instant skill points and there will be plenty of people providing the cows to be milked.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
28
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 18:41:06 -
[5687] - Quote
With 4 CSM's coming forward to say they don't like this 90% of posters saying its a flawed or bad idea
1st 20ish pages - I got bored checking
Quote:Now we will see if CCP actually listens to the players |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
231
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 03:16:22 -
[5688] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Furyan Vakko wrote:Any ideas on when this is coming to Eve ? ~1 year before they shutdown the servers
More truth in this than you realize. |
Tau Phoenix
Eternal Darkness. Blades of Grass
48
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 12:11:14 -
[5689] - Quote
A late reply but when AUR was introduced the community had severe reservations on where the use of Aurum may lead...Golden Ammo? From there CCP told us that AUR would be used for cosmetic areas of the game that do not affect in game mechanics other than viusal elements, so no game winning material from AUR.
Now it seems that this new , system is aimed at one thing, trying to lure extra cash out of inpatient kids who want to fly the biggest ships as fast as possible and at the same time CCP make extra money. Well let me tell you something CCP:
The time investment into this game and its uniques real time training is part of the attraction of this game. When you train for many months to get to an ingame goal it feels good, it is what keeps the loyal and patient people in this game.
What will happen with this system is it will kill Eve very quickly, why? Simple:
1) Veterans that get nothing from this system will become bitter and resent the fact that new bros don't have to go through an 'apprenticeship'.
) New players will be tempted to inject SP and skip amny lower levels of the game. This will havh a number secondary of affects:
a) Lower level ships, small & T1, will be skipped by new bros. All that ship rebalancing and good work will mean nothing. b) New bros will train fast, get to the big ships quick then get bored.......there is no challange in this type of game play. There is no substitute for 'earning the right' to do something in game than real time invested c) Training implants - there will be a negative affect on th use of training implants why use them when you can just buy SP.
3) The simple and unforgivable fact is this: AUR for Skillpoints = Skillpoints for Cash
Skillpoint for Cash = Pay to Win
The idea of a better vessel or tool/mechanic for the character bizzar is certainly worth an investment and overhaul.
CCP : The real currency in Eve is time. Time is what makes Skillpoints, time is what makes isk, time is our investment. Please don't ruin this game by devalueing our investment.
2016 will be a critical year of gambling for CCP i forsee. Capital changes and these proposed SP changes will be the make or break of this game. Tread carefully or this will be know as the Skillpoint for Cash Scandal |
Jared Khanar
73
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 13:58:44 -
[5690] - Quote
Dear CCP,
nearly a month has passed now since you started the exploration of "the character bazaar and skill trading". Feedback has been gathered, enough voices have spoken.
What have you decided to do? It-¦s about time you start to tell us!
o7
Economic Services
trading spacepixels
|
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4125
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 14:47:14 -
[5691] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Dear CCP,
nearly a month has passed now since you started the exploration of "the character bazaar and skill trading". Feedback has been gathered, enough voices have spoken.
What have you decided to do? It-¦s about time you start to tell us!
o7
They are figuring:
- plausible denial of some opposing arguments - ways to ignore some opposing arguments - fine tuning based on favorable arguments - fine tuning based on some opposing arguments
The idea is going to go through. CCP wants extra money from EVE and they just can't get it from extra subscriptions because of circunstances spanning since 5 or more years ago. Also CCP still isn't ready to go free to play since they know it's a last resort and the game would become financially unsustainable after it, so they will try a few other things before that.
Sadly, none of the things they will try will be in the line of improving the game and thus retention of the highsec solo PvE herd. They simply don't have the resources to do that AND implement the Hallelujah plan.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
202
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 15:06:41 -
[5692] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:With 4 CSM's coming forward to say they don't like this 90% of posters saying its a flawed or bad idea 1st 20ish pages - I got bored checking Quote:Now we will see if CCP actually listens to the players
This is why they let the thread go on so long with no reply, so they can ignore the first pages where most people said no thanks, and point to the last pages where a few posters (from both sides) posted a buttload and use that as evidence of some sort of approval.
BOLLOCKS.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 16:17:57 -
[5693] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:With 4 CSM's coming forward to say they don't like this 90% of posters saying its a flawed or bad idea 1st 20ish pages - I got bored checking Quote:Now we will see if CCP actually listens to the players 1st 20ish pages - CCP got bored checking
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
234
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 16:26:56 -
[5694] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Dear CCP,
nearly a month has passed now since you started the exploration of "the character bazaar and skill trading". Feedback has been gathered, enough voices have spoken.
What have you decided to do? It-¦s about time you start to tell us!
o7 They are figuring: - plausible denial of some opposing arguments - ways to ignore some opposing arguments - fine tuning based on favorable arguments - fine tuning based on some opposing arguments The idea is going to go through. CCP wants extra money from EVE and they just can't get it from extra subscriptions because of circunstances spanning since 5 or more years ago. Also CCP still isn't ready to go free to play since they know it's a last resort and the game would become financially unsustainable after it, so they will try a few other things before that. Sadly, none of the things they will try will be in the line of improving the game and thus retention of the highsec solo PvE herd. They simply don't have the resources to do that AND implement the Hallelujah plan.
Well said and very good analysis.
I'm convince now that CCP knows what it means if they implement THAT feature into this fantastic game. If Eve really is dying then I can't blame them for milking the cow of all it's milk before butchering it. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
245
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 16:29:25 -
[5695] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:With 4 CSM's coming forward to say they don't like this 90% of posters saying its a flawed or bad idea 1st 20ish pages - I got bored checking Quote:Now we will see if CCP actually listens to the players This is why they let the thread go on so long with no reply, so they can ignore the first pages where most people said no thanks, and point to the last pages where a few posters (from both sides) posted a buttload and use that as evidence of some sort of approval. BOLLOCKS. Looking through it all again its all governed by one single bloated item, The Plex. The wealthy in game or real life have the best of it being in position to have it farm-able for profit, best attributes for max returns on their investment - forcing players which cannot hit optimum skill point generation to either take a hit or not bother in it.
Then CCP can step in at anytime and either flood the market or curb the flow of Plex which also controls the price of the packets, with its base price being set by it, so this player driven market isn't so player driven when it can be manipulated from on high.
Then you got the poor schmuck's who either try to plex there main or a second account are really going to struggle if the plex continue's to rise.
So many drawback's for a quick fix. I'd have to agree with Tau Phoenix here, i hope it's worth the gamble.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 16:40:06 -
[5696] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Dear CCP,
nearly a month has passed now since you started the exploration of "the character bazaar and skill trading". Feedback has been gathered, enough voices have spoken.
What have you decided to do? It-¦s about time you start to tell us!
o7 They are figuring: - plausible denial of some opposing arguments - ways to ignore some opposing arguments - fine tuning based on favorable arguments - fine tuning based on some opposing arguments The idea is going to go through. CCP wants extra money from EVE and they just can't get it from extra subscriptions because of circunstances spanning since 5 or more years ago. Also CCP still isn't ready to go free to play since they know it's a last resort and the game would become financially unsustainable after it, so they will try a few other things before that. Sadly, none of the things they will try will be in the line of improving the game and thus retention of the highsec solo PvE herd. They simply don't have the resources to do that AND implement the Hallelujah plan. Well said and very good analysis. I'm convince now that CCP knows what it means if they implement THAT feature into this fantastic game. If Eve really is dying then I can't blame them for milking the cow of all it's milk before butchering it. Maybe you can try to buy a server on firesale then
Too bad about the vampire IP though, it was already sold
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Jadon Wallace
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 18:08:24 -
[5697] - Quote
What's the point of even trying to have a discussion and or debate on this when CCP are not interacting with the community on it? How many pages back was the last reply from CCP, do they even care about what the community thinks on this? Or are they going to roll this out regardless of what the communities thoughts are? |
Doctor Ultron
Usque Ad Mortem Solyaris Chtonium
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 23:55:32 -
[5698] - Quote
I thought they said they are gonna use aurum store for selling in game items that's NOT gonna affect gameplay ! guess they forgot that ! or they think we forgot that ! GREED IS GOOD UH ? |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
154
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 00:37:40 -
[5699] - Quote
Tau Phoenix wrote: Skillpoint for Cash = Pay to Win ... CCP : The real currency in Eve is time. Time is what makes Skillpoints, time is what makes isk, time is our investment. Please don't ruin this game by devalueing our investment.
Wait 2 win.
Pinky Bear
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
155
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 01:43:06 -
[5700] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: Plex isn't going to effect the extractor Plex will effect price of extactor because people want to maximize their isk/$ rate. So they will choose between PLEX and extractor, hence PLEX and extractor will be collarated things. For example if extractor will cost 1/12 of PLEX in $ than it will cost same 1/12 in isk.
Pinky Bear
|
|
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
352
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 06:32:06 -
[5701] - Quote
Tau Phoenix wrote:CCP : The real currency in Eve is time. Time is what makes Skillpoints, time is what makes isk, time is our investment. Please don't ruin this game by devalueing our investment.
But one of the core tenets of EVE is the player driver economy... so why not make time a tradable commodity? We can already trade game-time in monthly chunks. We can already trade time in ISK. We can already trade time in full-character chunks. What is the issue with trading time in 500k SP chunks?
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
246
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 08:00:27 -
[5702] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Tau Phoenix wrote:CCP : The real currency in Eve is time. Time is what makes Skillpoints, time is what makes isk, time is our investment. Please don't ruin this game by devalueing our investment. But one of the core tenets of EVE is the player driver economy... so why not make time a tradable commodity? We can already trade game-time in monthly chunks. We can already trade time in ISK. We can already trade time in full-character chunks. What is the issue with trading time in 500k SP chunks? The bazaar was a necessary evil that CCP introduced to combat RMT it is also very different than the ability to have a zero day custom built toon. Your month chunk is just an in game commodity to be freely traded as it belongs to no timeline, travesty being that same item could rocket in price when this is introduced.
Don't confuse the passage of time, real time with a 30 day voucher ( Commodity ) Until actually used its only has a monetary value not a time one.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Jared Khanar
78
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 09:28:57 -
[5703] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Tau Phoenix wrote: Skillpoint for Cash = Pay to Win ... CCP : The real currency in Eve is time. Time is what makes Skillpoints, time is what makes isk, time is our investment. Please don't ruin this game by devalueing our investment.
Wait 2 win. I prefer Do something to win.
Yep... doing something to > wait to > pay something to ... get a fun gameplay
Let-¦s skip the features designed for the pay and waiting part and head to / develop the good things instead. All of us are already paying to do / play ;)
Economic Services
trading spacepixels
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
156
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 15:27:45 -
[5704] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote: Let-¦s skip the features designed for the pay and waiting part and head to / develop the good things instead.
I'm fine with skill trading system.
Jared Khanar wrote: All of us are already paying to do be able to do / play ;)
Not all. Because of it some people don't mind if another person sell extra plex on the market.
Pinky Bear
|
Tau Phoenix
Eternal Darkness. Blades of Grass
54
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 16:16:45 -
[5705] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Tau Phoenix wrote:CCP : The real currency in Eve is time. Time is what makes Skillpoints, time is what makes isk, time is our investment. Please don't ruin this game by devalueing our investment. But one of the core tenets of EVE is the player driver economy... so why not make time a tradable commodity? We can already trade game-time in monthly chunks. We can already trade time in ISK. We can already trade time in full-character chunks. What is the issue with trading time in 500k SP chunks?
This will be the start of teh end and CCP would not stop there. This current system means to syphon off SP from a players SP but it is not a like for like exchange. The seller can decide what SP to sell and where to take them from, the buyer can redistribute the SP as they see fit.
This is not healthy for the game in any way. It is not like a char is selling Battleship lvl5 and the buyer purchasing Batteship lvl5 as there is no tie here. Even if you were selling skillpoints that can only be injected to the attriburte they were originally trained for i still think this is a bad idea.
I hear some people saying that with this mechanic i can sell off any unanted SP becasue they may no longer use those particuler skill attributes. All this will do is players will use this mechanic to make 'pure' focused chars. Well, if you made a decision to train a skill at some oint then you made that decision and it should not be able to be undone.
I also see another problem, what happens if a player tried to sell SP for a skill that they no longer use but th eskill is a pre-requestite for a skill they do use? Would CCP like to comment here? Would that char still be able to fly a T2 cruiser is the prerequisit SP werr sold/removed from th e char? |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
31
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 18:56:25 -
[5706] - Quote
Anyone seen a reply from a CCP Dev yet ?
I was wondering if they would consider NOT SELLING SKILL POINTS but maybe they could use some of the following ideas:
A character 'REMAP SP' item from the store - in case you want to turn those mining SP into Combat SP The ability to package ''WHOLE CHARACTERS' to be sold on the market - get rid of the Bazaar bring it in-game Boosters for SP gain that are balanced towards lower SP character - the Blood boosters were very popular
|
Zakks
Zakks Shop
17
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 19:39:19 -
[5707] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Anyone seen a reply from a CCP Dev yet ?
I was wondering if they would consider NOT SELLING SKILL POINTS but maybe they could use some of the following ideas:
A character 'REMAP SP' item from the store - in case you want to turn those mining SP into Combat SP The ability to package ''WHOLE CHARACTERS' to be sold on the market - get rid of the Bazaar bring it in-game Boosters for SP gain that are balanced towards lower SP character - the Blood boosters were very popular
Remapping SP for AUR/PLEX is a much better idea than SP-harvesting. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
156
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 19:40:39 -
[5708] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote: A character 'REMAP SP' item from the store - in case you want to turn those mining SP into Combat SP
1 post earlier
Tau Phoenix wrote: Well, if you made a decision to train a skill at some oint then you made that decision and it should not be able to be undone.
Pinky Bear
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
251
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 21:52:09 -
[5709] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:-Ü-é-+--é-+ -¦-¦-¦-î -¦-+-+-¦-¦-+ -+-+-¦-¦-+-¦-é-î, -ç-é-+ -+-+-¦-¦-¦-â -+-¦-+-î-+-Å -¦-â-+-+-é-î. -ÿ -+-â-ü-é-î -ì-é-+ -¦-â-¦-¦-é EVE.
Translated
Somebody has to show that victory can not be bought, And let it be EVE.
Good man, couldn't of said it better myself !!!
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
156
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 22:08:33 -
[5710] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:-Ü-é-+--é-+ -¦-¦-¦-î -¦-+-+-¦-¦-+ -+-+-¦-¦-+-¦-é-î, -ç-é-+ -+-+-¦-¦-¦-â -+-¦-+-î-+-Å -¦-â-+-+-é-î. -ÿ -+-â-ü-é-î -ì-é-+ -¦-â-¦-¦-é EVE.
Translated
Somebody has to show that victory can not be bought, And let it be EVE.
Good man, couldn't of said it better myself !!! Follow me and I will reveal you the truth!
|
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
219
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 01:04:16 -
[5711] - Quote
Just read the blog
It's a very good idea, must admit never knew that many characters went through the bazaar each day.
Diminishing returns is also a very good idea, as it protects your older customers characters sp lead, which they deserve. It also allows others to get to a point where they can have more options with what they want to do in the game.
The only thing is to protect those older customers characters you will probably need a limit to which you can use them to boost a character. Off the top of my head, I'd say 150 million sp. But of course you would be in a better position to know what that cut of point should be.
Get rid of the character bazaar and replace with an in-game system like you are proposing in a very good idea.
Edit:
It also does away with the problem of someone buying a character where they don't like the name. |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
219
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 01:12:18 -
[5712] - Quote
Zakks wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Anyone seen a reply from a CCP Dev yet ?
I was wondering if they would consider NOT SELLING SKILL POINTS but maybe they could use some of the following ideas:
A character 'REMAP SP' item from the store - in case you want to turn those mining SP into Combat SP The ability to package ''WHOLE CHARACTERS' to be sold on the market - get rid of the Bazaar bring it in-game Boosters for SP gain that are balanced towards lower SP character - the Blood boosters were very popular
Remapping SP for AUR/PLEX is a much better idea than SP-harvesting.
They're replacing the current bazaar. Some people create characters just for the bazaar so CCP is giving them something to do. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26121
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 06:07:22 -
[5713] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Well, actually, you demonstrated one way in which it did help new players. Recruitment benefits. Or more generally, the desire for older players to use their resources to help new players for mutual gain. Further, even that aside the proposed means puts gaining SP in a much more new player friendly package in terms of obtainability through cost (though I'd granulate further) and retaining of the players personally crafted identity. You can't just take one small piece of the argument that benefits you and argue it.
It disproportionately benefits newbros in large alliances. Why do you think this is good for EVE from a 10,000 foot view standpoint?
Let's not forget that newbros don't need SP to have fun. You've yet to demonstrate that SPs for newbros specifically is a problem that needs to be solved.
Quote:When the packets become individually obtainable at reasonable rates they a) reduce the desire for RL cash expenditure for end users by being more obtainable through in game earnings (for sellers it's no change since they pay character transfer fees in the bazaar via PLEX now) and b) disincentivize RMT related directly to them for the same reason (black markets thrive where legitimate supply is very limited and expensive or doesn't exist. This actually tries to address that specifically as high character prices could actually drive RMT for isk trying to get a better exchange rate on $:SP). You completely lost me on your logic.
You can't trade SP today. What RMT pipe are you preventing by introducing SP Trading?
Quote:Edit: With regard to tracking RMT for packets vs characters or isk I'm not seeing this as a new driver since isk alone is still effectively all of the above anyways so it may be moot, but if it's not how is it less traceable than isk? Why introduce the mechanism at all? You've just admitted it's at least as RMT-able as ISK? Currently the mechanism doesn't exist, but you'd like to introduce it so it turns into an RMT pipe?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Laurew
Original Black Plague
2
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 08:13:14 -
[5714] - Quote
This is the worst idea CCP has ever had. Get rid of Fatty Gay and maybe the game will thrive again |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
219
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 10:21:46 -
[5715] - Quote
There is a potential problem with the system.
If demand out strips supply then you are likely to get some of the richer players in EvE stockpiling them, they may do this anyway and release them slowly so that the price is artificially high.
You could combat this although it could be potentially ineffective.
When you buy the packet off of the market, you don't get the packet you get the sp ready to use. The problem is that all they would have to do is repackage them.
|
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
64
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 10:49:28 -
[5716] - Quote
Avvy wrote: Diminishing returns is also a very good idea, as it protects your older customers characters sp lead, which they deserve. It also allows others to get to a point where they can have more options with what they want to do in the game.
Diminishing returns is a bad idea, because it says a big F you to your most loyal customers. It only protects older character's SP investment from poor people - or at least "not rich" people.
Fixed that for you...
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
251
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 11:40:16 -
[5717] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: We hope that because this feature is modeled from the Character Bazaar, a long-standing and well-established feature, we are already pointed in a good direction. In what way is this feature modeled off the character bazaar in any way except that it pertains to trading. That's like saying there is no difference between an Austin A40 and an Aston Martin DB11 - they both have 4 wheels and drive along a road.
CCP Rise wrote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. You have done away with any need to have training decisions at all, You've given anyone with a large enough wallet the ability to create the perfect character for anything in game. There is no need to re-spec an elite character.
CCP Rise wrote:On top of all that, you have to accept that you donGÇÖt get any personalization of the character youGÇÖre buying. The name, exact skill distribution and reputation are all set before you buy. They have always been the downside to having the bazaar, Personalization / customization comes from being given the opportunity to alter your own character (time investment ) not the ability to bin it and create a whole new one. A name change, A skill respeccing package that is personalization not grow you own character in a day.
CCP Rise wrote:Note that respeccing below 5mil SP is not possible because characters that new are not allowed to create the SP items. So the players who make most mistakes, the new guys still have to live with them until theyre old enough to start recycling, this helps them in what way then ???
CCP Rise wrote:We would like feedback on everything from how the diminishing returns work to what ways you could see this feature being exploited to what ISK price to expect a Skill Packet to fetch so please let us know what you think. Exploited .... How about introducing a new RMT mechanism into the game, Skill point Farms, With its base price always being fixed by the plex It will never be an independent commodity so always being able to be controlled by CCP. Nexx store was for vanity items only yet the Extractor is for aurum. Only people with optimum training can match a 4 packet / plex path - Only balance to that is to remove attribs so doesn't favour anyone in game, every player has the ability to train XXXX skillpoints per hour.
What your doing to this game you ought to change it from Team Size Matters to Team FA Matters.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
219
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 12:11:53 -
[5718] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Avvy wrote: Diminishing returns is also a very good idea, as it protects your older customers characters sp lead, which they deserve. It also allows others to get to a point where they can have more options with what they want to do in the game.
Diminishing returns is a bad idea, because it says a big F you to your most loyal customers. It only protects older character's SP investment from poor people - or at least "not rich" people. Fixed that for you...
Diminishing returns are fine, the system really allows newer players (5 million +) to get to a stage where they can try something they actually want to do.
If you just want to fly frigates you only need a set amount of sp, sp after that is irrelevant.
If you want to fly cruisers you need a bit more, after that any extra sp is irrelevant.
Battleship you will need more, any sp after that will be irrelevant.
and so on...
Don't forget players that have been around a long time should have a lot of isk anyway. So are more likely to be able to afford them anyway. Without having to spend any more RL currency. |
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
64
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 12:44:26 -
[5719] - Quote
Avvy wrote: Plus some of those older characters players keep telling me sp isn't important.
And by your logic, some means all... ^^ |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
222
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 12:51:31 -
[5720] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Avvy wrote: Plus some of those older characters players keep telling me sp isn't important.
And by your logic, some means all... ^^
Of course not, if it did , I'd have said so.
Edit:
Actually, it was a little dig at them really. As I was pointing out not all older players feel the same way they do. |
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
156
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 15:29:01 -
[5721] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote: Diminishing returns is a bad idea, because it says a big F you to your most loyal customers.
Mom why little brother has better toys?! |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
156
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 15:44:49 -
[5722] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: You can't just take one small piece of the argument that benefits you and argue it.
You can't just invent many reasons with intention to proof this change is bad for entire GAME because it's not benefitial for you. Wait... You can. |
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
64
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 15:59:03 -
[5723] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Amanda Orion wrote: Diminishing returns is a bad idea, because it says a big F you to your most loyal customers.
Mom why little brother has better toys?!
Your well reasoned intellectual argument has fully explored the commercial implications of showing long standing loyal customers that they are considered less important than new customers, or even possibly expendable.
Thank you so much. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
156
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 16:19:07 -
[5724] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote: Your well reasoned intellectual argument has fully explored the commercial implications of showing long standing loyal customers that they are considered less important than new customers, or even possibly expendable.
Thank you so much.
Very loyal
Vahligmarr wrote:I just cancelled my account. You can leave a message why you quit in the process. I did.
Jeremiah Saken wrote: I don't know if I want to be part of it when that happens.
Daniela Doran wrote: I'm losing all interest to log in anymore thanks to you. For really long standing loyal players spring will show a bunch of new things. |
Veraca Darmazaf
EVE University Ivy League
10
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 16:27:17 -
[5725] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote: Your well reasoned intellectual argument has fully explored the commercial implications of showing long standing loyal customers that they are considered less important than new customers, or even possibly expendable.
Thank you so much.
If the proposed system somehow makes long term customers feel less important than new customers or expendable I'd say they need to get over themselves.
I've seen so many conflicting arguments about who this would help and who it would hurt at this point that they mostly cancel each other out in my mind. The only things that I've seen that stick out without another conflicting argument from the 'No' side are spy's/infiltration/etc and RMT.
The first I just see as something people would adapt to, but I don't have enough experience to really weigh in on the subject. The second is something you can mitigate if you design around it but it's not only unavoidable but also already present in the game, so I don't see this making a big difference there.
That said, I'm not interested in taking part in a long discussion about my views on the subject, so feel free to ignore this post. |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
941
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 16:50:14 -
[5726] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: [quote=Tyberius Franklin]
You can't trade SP today. What RMT pipe are you preventing by introducing SP Trading?
Not sure you are entirely serious. The longest running and most pervasive form of RMT in Eve has always been the sale of characters (which are packets of SP) for rl cash. The character bazarr exists precisely to offer players a non RMT based exchange. This proposal is just taking the bazarr one step further.
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
941
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 17:08:21 -
[5727] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:slightly wild eyed gnashing of teeth.
You seem to live in this fantasy land where players are going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars respecing their characters to be "perfect" for what they fancy, when anyone with such spare cash to sink into the game can already do it through the bazarr for like 1% of the cost. If you truly have such a problem with people being able to retain their name on their RL funded chars that it is a good enough reason to rob everyone else of the utility this system offers you must have a personal agenda.
You are really being obtuse if you cant see how this system is modeled off the character bazaar, it is obvious to anyone with half a brain. The character bazaar facilitates the trade of sp for isk in character sized packets with ccp taking a transfer fee. The proposed system allows the trade of 500k packets of sp for isk with ccp taking a transfer fee. The only difference is the improved personalisation of the traded sp being retained on the players own character, along with the utility of the size of the packets. That and the diminishing returns, which the bazarr does not have at all. |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
941
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 17:09:27 -
[5728] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:With 4 CSM's coming forward to say they don't like this 90% of posters saying its a flawed or bad idea 1st 20ish pages - I got bored checking Quote:Now we will see if CCP actually listens to the players
Thats funny, it is about 50-50 for the other 200 pages after people actually looked ta the proposal, i wonder why you stopped checking ...
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
251
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 17:29:07 -
[5729] - Quote
Doddy wrote:You seem to live in this fantasy land where players are going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars respecing their characters to be "perfect" for what they fancy, when anyone with such spare cash to sink into the game can already do it through the bazarr for like 1% of the cost. So the $60,000 dollars they make each month from transfers is fantasy too ???? Then the sale of the plexes to actually buy the toons, noticed they've not offered up that info either. If real money is involved it just devalues the whole game.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
157
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 17:37:25 -
[5730] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: If real money is involved it just devalues the whole game. Confirmed. Plexes devalues the whole game. |
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Doddy
Esoteric Operations
944
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 17:43:38 -
[5731] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:
Implants aren't going to bother the wealthy, this is going to be one of the biggest passive income generators ever. All the people see are instant skill points and there will be plenty of people providing the cows to be milked.
Where is the passive income going to come from? Each account creating the SP is a plex of cost, plus the cost of the extractors. If 1 plex per 4 Extractorss is correct then you need to make 2 plex per account to break even, assuming you don't need to boost your chars to 5 mil sp to begin with (3 plex per char starting cost). Given you could just sell the plex in the first place the gain per char per month is also going to have to be worth said farmers time, plus there are transaction costs (in game and often IRL) meaning you are looking at least 10 or 20% return on investment for anyone to bother doing it. So unless the market value of a TSP reaches 60% the value of a plex nobody is ever going to farm it.
Given that there will be a flooded market with people unloading unwanted SP, and others constantly trading back their SP for sub time or consolidating characters, the SP market cost is not going to be dictated by SP farmers for a long time, if ever. The source of isk rich individuals willing to drop a plex of isk on buying 1 days SP is going to run dry pretty fast.
If it ever was an issue CCP can just cap TSP use per month. If a char is limited to producing 2 TSP a month for example, the TSP cost would need to be twice as much (well over the cost of a plex) for it to be worth farming. Similarly if a char was limited to injecting even 10 TSP a month it would pretty much nullify the effect of these imagined super rich TSP junkies.
CCP only needs to exhibit a small amount of common sense for pretty much every valid concern over this proposal to be answered. Whether they will show that common sense or not is up to them, |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
944
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 17:52:37 -
[5732] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:You seem to live in this fantasy land where players are going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars respecing their characters to be "perfect" for what they fancy, when anyone with such spare cash to sink into the game can already do it through the bazarr for like 1% of the cost. So the $60,000 dollars they make each month from transfers is fantasy too ???? Then the sale of the plexes to actually buy the toons, noticed they've not offered up that info either. If real money is involved it just devalues the whole game.
You know fine well that the $60k per month is divided between hundreds of players, a large proportion of who will have used no RL money in their character transfer having bought plex from the market. Meanwhile you are suggesting individual players will chuck in $60k every time they want to spec their char for something.
Quite how you can equate the entire eve community spending $60k worth of isk per month to sell SP with individual players paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy sp whenever they want to be perfect at something is beyond me. Your dishonesty is breathtaking.
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Doddy
Esoteric Operations
944
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 17:53:48 -
[5733] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: If real money is involved it just devalues the whole game. Confirmed. Plexes devalues the whole game.
I agree with this, if Plex never happened it would be a non issue. But they did long ago and nothing can change Eve back. Not that Eve would have survived without plex anyway.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
251
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 18:06:56 -
[5734] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:
Implants aren't going to bother the wealthy, this is going to be one of the biggest passive income generators ever. All the people see are instant skill points and there will be plenty of people providing the cows to be milked.
Where is the passive income going to come from? Each account creating the SP is a plex of cost, plus the cost of the extractors. If 1 plex per 4 Extractorss is correct then you need to make 2 plex per account to break even, assuming you don't need to boost your chars to 5 mil sp to begin with (3 plex per char starting cost). Given you could just sell the plex in the first place the gain per char per month is also going to have to be worth said farmers time, plus there are transaction costs (in game and often IRL) meaning you are looking at least 10 or 20% return on investment for anyone to bother doing it. So unless the market value of a TSP reaches 60% the value of a plex nobody is ever going to farm it. Given that there will be a flooded market with people unloading unwanted SP, and others constantly trading back their SP for sub time or consolidating characters, the SP market cost is not going to be dictated by SP farmers for a long time, if ever. The source of isk rich individuals willing to drop a plex of isk on buying 1 days SP is going to run dry pretty fast. If it ever was an issue CCP can just cap TSP use per month. If a char is limited to producing 2 TSP a month for example, the TSP cost would need to be twice as much (well over the cost of a plex) for it to be worth farming. Similarly if a char was limited to injecting even 10 TSP a month it would pretty much nullify the effect of these imagined super rich TSP junkies. CCP only needs to exhibit a small amount of common sense for pretty much every valid concern over this proposal to be answered. Whether they will show that common sense or not is up to them, Seeing as you don't even grasp basic math i will not even to bother dignifying this tripe with an answer.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
944
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 18:13:05 -
[5735] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:
Implants aren't going to bother the wealthy, this is going to be one of the biggest passive income generators ever. All the people see are instant skill points and there will be plenty of people providing the cows to be milked.
Where is the passive income going to come from? Each account creating the SP is a plex of cost, plus the cost of the extractors. If 1 plex per 4 Extractorss is correct then you need to make 2 plex per account to break even, assuming you don't need to boost your chars to 5 mil sp to begin with (3 plex per char starting cost). Given you could just sell the plex in the first place the gain per char per month is also going to have to be worth said farmers time, plus there are transaction costs (in game and often IRL) meaning you are looking at least 10 or 20% return on investment for anyone to bother doing it. So unless the market value of a TSP reaches 60% the value of a plex nobody is ever going to farm it. Given that there will be a flooded market with people unloading unwanted SP, and others constantly trading back their SP for sub time or consolidating characters, the SP market cost is not going to be dictated by SP farmers for a long time, if ever. The source of isk rich individuals willing to drop a plex of isk on buying 1 days SP is going to run dry pretty fast. If it ever was an issue CCP can just cap TSP use per month. If a char is limited to producing 2 TSP a month for example, the TSP cost would need to be twice as much (well over the cost of a plex) for it to be worth farming. Similarly if a char was limited to injecting even 10 TSP a month it would pretty much nullify the effect of these imagined super rich TSP junkies. CCP only needs to exhibit a small amount of common sense for pretty much every valid concern over this proposal to be answered. Whether they will show that common sense or not is up to them, Seeing as you don't even grasp basic math i will not even to bother dignifying this tripe with an answer.
Rote answer for someone with nothing to say.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
251
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 18:22:14 -
[5736] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Rote answer for someone with nothing to say. ??????
The PLeX has an intrinsic value that is tied to the core of the game - Time, but also an arbitrary value of money. The time value can never alter its set in stone, but the attributes of the players can all be removed so as not to hinder any player in gaining the exact same amount of skill point's in any given time period. With the introduction of the TSP its arbitrary value can alter its already inflated value and can also be manipulated directly by CCP by controlling the commodity in game. e.g.
Plex Market Price 300 million isk ( 30 days ) ++4 = 7.5 days (500k @ optimum training ) + extractor cost ( ? ) + profit margin ( % ) 1 TSP =75 million isk + extractor cost + profit margin.
Plex Market Price 1 Billion isk ( 30 days ) ++4 = 7.5 days (500k @ optimum training ) + extractor cost ( ? ) + profit margin ( % ) 1 TSP =250 million isk + extractor cost + profit margin.
Plex Market Price 2 Billion isk ( 30 days ) ++4 = 7.5 days (500k @ optimum training ) + extractor cost ( ? ) + profit margin ( % ) 1 TSP =500 million isk + extractor cost + profit margin.
The players will never control the price of the TSP only the PLeX will. All the above is based on optimum training attribs, they change dramatically when your getting lower sp values per month.
Once a character has hit the 5 mill sweet spot every week when using optimized attribs he generates 1 packet to sell, now times that by X number of characters
You wil only make the profit margin off plex'd accounts but unlimited amounts from subbed farms .... Are you under some illusion that people will be giving there skill points away at bargain bin prices or something
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
198
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 19:14:49 -
[5737] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:With 4 CSM's coming forward to say they don't like this 90% of posters saying its a flawed or bad idea 1st 20ish pages - I got bored checking Quote:Now we will see if CCP actually listens to the players Thats funny, it is about 50-50 for the other 200 pages after people actually looked ta the proposal, i wonder why you stopped checking ...
Except its not truth, there is far more against this idea but couple of spammers made it look like its 50-50 in the pro and con posts.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
944
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 19:36:32 -
[5738] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Rote answer for someone with nothing to say. ?????? The PLeX has an intrinsic value that is tied to the core of the game - Time, but also an arbitrary value of money. The time value can never alter its set in stone, but the attributes of the players can all be removed so as not to hinder any player in gaining the exact same amount of skill point's in any given time period. With the introduction of the TSP its arbitrary value can alter its already inflated value and can also be manipulated directly by CCP by controlling the commodity in game. e.g. Plex Market Price 300 million isk ( 30 days ) ++4 = 7.5 days (500k @ optimum training ) + extractor cost ( ? ) + profit margin ( % ) 1 TSP =75 million isk + extractor cost + profit margin. Plex Market Price 1 Billion isk ( 30 days ) ++4 = 7.5 days (500k @ optimum training ) + extractor cost ( ? ) + profit margin ( % ) 1 TSP =250 million isk + extractor cost + profit margin. Plex Market Price 2 Billion isk ( 30 days ) ++4 = 7.5 days (500k @ optimum training ) + extractor cost ( ? ) + profit margin ( % ) 1 TSP =500 million isk + extractor cost + profit margin. The players will never control the price of the TSP only the PLeX will. All the above is based on optimum training attribs, they change dramatically when your getting lower sp values per month. Once a character has hit the 5 mill sweet spot every week when using optimized attribs he generates 1 packet to sell, now times that by X number of characters You wil only make the profit margin off plex'd accounts but unlimited amounts from subbed farms .... Are you under some illusion that people will be giving there skill points away at bargain bin prices or something
No, you are the one under the illusion the plex will control the price. This would be the case only if there was no pre-existing sp in the eve universe, and everybody who is now training skills was doing so for profit. It also assumes that the sp produced by the farmers (which everyone now is in your world) will always match the demand for TSPs (apparently coming from other farmers). All that you have done is calculate the values for a TSP at which point farming becomes profitable. The only difference between your "Math" and my "Maths" is that i have included an estimated cost for the extractor. As it is absolutely any sale of non-farmed SP can push price down and eat into profit margin. By your way of it no value is attached to the access to the game previous subs allowed, nor the game play benefits having those skills provided, all players will expect to get the plex value back despite having used it for game time. That is clearly nuts and not going to happen.
The account being subbed or plexed is irrelevant, it is the same value of RL money and whatever happens you could buy a plex to sell instead. The only profit the farmer will get from his farming rather than just exchanging rl cash to isk via plex is the profit margin from your equation. This profit margin is subject to supply and demand. If supply outstrips demand sp produced by non-farmers will undercut farmers doing it for profit and make farming unprofitable (or at leat make profits so low its pointless) instantly. As such farming would be impractical while there was any meaningful historical supply (one assumes there will be a huge amount of TSP dumped when the proposal becomes reality, probably making farming impossible for months if not years) coming from outside farming, and a massive risk even when such supplies were low (changes implemented by CCP to any part of the game could see players dumping SP). Given farming is competitive, profit margin would never get very high even when demand outstripped supply since it would only encourage more competition until an equilibrium was reached. Unlike other farming in eve there would be no way to remove competition (rival isk farmers can be overcome by restricting thier access to isk sources) and only undercutting on the market would be possible.
CCP can also control both supply and demand by capping how many TSP a player can consume in a month and how many TSP a player can create in a month. As such even if such limits were not in place from TSPs introduction, the fact they could implement it at any time would be a massive deterrent to farmers. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
157
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 19:58:00 -
[5739] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: Except its not truth, there is far more against this idea but couple of spammers made it look like its 50-50 in the pro and con posts.
Levi he call you a spammer and you liked it?
Don ZOLA wrote:I do not read reddit so I do not know. It explains why do you think that way. Maybe you need to start read it right now and proof that I was wrong... again. |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
945
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 20:04:25 -
[5740] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:With 4 CSM's coming forward to say they don't like this 90% of posters saying its a flawed or bad idea 1st 20ish pages - I got bored checking Quote:Now we will see if CCP actually listens to the players Thats funny, it is about 50-50 for the other 200 pages after people actually looked ta the proposal, i wonder why you stopped checking ... Except its not truth, there is far more against this idea but couple of spammers made it look like its 50-50 in the pro and con posts.
No, there are far more spammers against than for. In the last 10 pages individual posters it is 17-14 in favour of against, with a surprisingly large number not expressing an opinion either way. The majority of those pages are filled by 5 spammers who are against it while I who have posted most in favour have less than half the number of posts each of them does. It has clearly struck a nerve with the forum chattering classes (many of whom automatically attack CCP at every opportunity regardless) even if most actual players don't really care either way.
|
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
198
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 20:06:56 -
[5741] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: Except its not truth, there is far more against this idea but couple of spammers made it look like its 50-50 in the pro and con posts.
Levi he call you a spammer and you liked it? Don ZOLA wrote:I do not read reddit so I do not know. It explains why do you think that way. Maybe you need to start read it right now to proof that I was wrong... again.
I did not call Levi spammer, its Dave, you and similar ones.
Also I did not comment on reddit, as he was referring to this topic only. Even though i proved you wrong again, it was not my intention as it will not change anything, you will continue to spam around.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
198
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 20:11:22 -
[5742] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:With 4 CSM's coming forward to say they don't like this 90% of posters saying its a flawed or bad idea 1st 20ish pages - I got bored checking Quote:Now we will see if CCP actually listens to the players Thats funny, it is about 50-50 for the other 200 pages after people actually looked ta the proposal, i wonder why you stopped checking ... Except its not truth, there is far more against this idea but couple of spammers made it look like its 50-50 in the pro and con posts. No, there are far more spammers against than for. In the last 10 pages individual posters it is 17-14 in favour of against, with a surprisingly large number not expressing an opinion either way. The majority of those pages are filled by 5 spammers who are against it while I who have posted most in favour have less than half the number of posts each of them does. It has clearly struck a nerve with the forum chattering classes (many of whom automatically attack CCP at every opportunity regardless) even if most actual players don't really care either way.
You cannot estimate whole thread based on latest 10 pages. I have read every single page since the start and I suggest you do the same if you want to get the real picture. I agree that both sides have couple of "fighters" (most of the "against" ones are actually just making noise and not really contributing to the thread, like the two mentioned in my post above). If we count only characters which expressed pro and con for the change regardless of the post count and the real contribution, it is far more of those who are against it on this topic.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
945
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 20:18:42 -
[5743] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:[quote=Doddy]
You cannot estimate whole thread based on latest 10 pages. I have read every single page since the start and I suggest you do the same if you want to get the real picture. I agree that both sides have couple of "fighters" (most of the "against" ones are actually just making noise and not really contributing to the thread, like the two mentioned in my post above). If we count only characters which expressed pro and con for the change regardless of the post count, it is far more of those who are against it on this topic.
Fair enough, but given the original comment was made by someone who only read the first 10 pages and decided it was 90% against (which it wasn't even if you count the vets complaining about the diminishing returns) 50-50 is far more accurate. I too have read every page (wish i hadn't, most is nonsense) and I don't know what you mean by "far more" but I think you have been influenced more by the "against" spam posts per page than I have by the "for" spam posts. The entire middle hundred pages is pretty much "against" spammers shooting down anybody who dares to express a contrary opinion.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
198
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 20:23:27 -
[5744] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:[quote=Doddy]
You cannot estimate whole thread based on latest 10 pages. I have read every single page since the start and I suggest you do the same if you want to get the real picture. I agree that both sides have couple of "fighters" (most of the "against" ones are actually just making noise and not really contributing to the thread, like the two mentioned in my post above). If we count only characters which expressed pro and con for the change regardless of the post count, it is far more of those who are against it on this topic. Fair enough, but given the original comment was made by someone who only read the first 10 pages and decided it was 90% against (which it wasn't even if you count the vets complaining about the diminishing returns) 50-50 is far more accurate. I too have read every page (wish i hadn't, most is nonsense) and I don't know what you mean by "far more" but I think you have been influenced more by the "against" spam posts per page than I have by the "for" spam posts. The entire middle hundred pages is pretty much "against" spammers shooting down anybody who dares to express a contrary opinion.
By far more i mean that it is 75%-25% for those who are against it. If not even more. Regardless of that, CCP obviously does not give a sh*t about what feedback players have. They will obviously do as they intended and calculate side effects when they count canceled subscriptions and based on them estimate the numbers or those who also probably do not like it but not as much to make them quit. Yet. Though, maybe if financial situation gets better with this, maybe they wont even care about those who quit. We will see.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
157
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 20:32:04 -
[5745] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: I did not call Levi spammer, its Dave, you and similar ones.
Please be more specific when you insulting someone.
Don ZOLA wrote: couple of spammers made it look like its 50-50 in the pro and con posts.
Can you extend yor list with con-mans? Because it looks like your list is quite biased.
Don ZOLA wrote:Also I did not comment on reddit, as he was referring to this topic only. And I'm pointing out that eve-o not the only source of opinions. |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
945
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 20:35:32 -
[5746] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Doddy wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:[quote=Doddy]
You cannot estimate whole thread based on latest 10 pages. I have read every single page since the start and I suggest you do the same if you want to get the real picture. I agree that both sides have couple of "fighters" (most of the "against" ones are actually just making noise and not really contributing to the thread, like the two mentioned in my post above). If we count only characters which expressed pro and con for the change regardless of the post count, it is far more of those who are against it on this topic. Fair enough, but given the original comment was made by someone who only read the first 10 pages and decided it was 90% against (which it wasn't even if you count the vets complaining about the diminishing returns) 50-50 is far more accurate. I too have read every page (wish i hadn't, most is nonsense) and I don't know what you mean by "far more" but I think you have been influenced more by the "against" spam posts per page than I have by the "for" spam posts. The entire middle hundred pages is pretty much "against" spammers shooting down anybody who dares to express a contrary opinion. By far more i mean that it is 75%-25% for those who are against it. If not even more. Regardless of that, CCP obviously does not give a sh*t about what feedback players have. They will obviously do as they intended and calculate side effects when they count canceled subscriptions and based on them estimate the numbers or those who also probably do not like it but not as much to make them quit. Yet. Though, maybe if financial situation gets better with this, maybe they wont even care about those who quit. We will see.
I think you are seeing what you want to see to be honest. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
198
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 20:37:35 -
[5747] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: I did not call Levi spammer, its Dave, you and similar ones.
Please be more specific when you insulting someone. Don ZOLA wrote: couple of spammers made it look like its 50-50 in the pro and con posts.
Can you extend yor list with con-mans? Because it looks like your list is quite biased. Don ZOLA wrote:Also I did not comment on reddit, as he was referring to this topic only. And I'm pointing out that eve-o not the only source of opinions.
I do not need to be more specific, you and similar ones can easily recognize themselves. And I am not insulting, just stating obvious.
My list is not biased, if you actually read through the topic you would know as well. But you and facts combined would be quite shocking post ;)
You quoted my post which had clearly stated quote where it was visible that we are discussing about THIS topic. Yet you have decided to spam more and comment on something we did not even mention.
I am not sure if you actually went behind and saw how many of your posts got deleted. If that ain`t clear message about quality of your posts then I doubt anyone can draw it for you :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
198
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 20:39:05 -
[5748] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Doddy wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:[quote=Doddy]
You cannot estimate whole thread based on latest 10 pages. I have read every single page since the start and I suggest you do the same if you want to get the real picture. I agree that both sides have couple of "fighters" (most of the "against" ones are actually just making noise and not really contributing to the thread, like the two mentioned in my post above). If we count only characters which expressed pro and con for the change regardless of the post count, it is far more of those who are against it on this topic. Fair enough, but given the original comment was made by someone who only read the first 10 pages and decided it was 90% against (which it wasn't even if you count the vets complaining about the diminishing returns) 50-50 is far more accurate. I too have read every page (wish i hadn't, most is nonsense) and I don't know what you mean by "far more" but I think you have been influenced more by the "against" spam posts per page than I have by the "for" spam posts. The entire middle hundred pages is pretty much "against" spammers shooting down anybody who dares to express a contrary opinion. By far more i mean that it is 75%-25% for those who are against it. If not even more. Regardless of that, CCP obviously does not give a sh*t about what feedback players have. They will obviously do as they intended and calculate side effects when they count canceled subscriptions and based on them estimate the numbers or those who also probably do not like it but not as much to make them quit. Yet. Though, maybe if financial situation gets better with this, maybe they wont even care about those who quit. We will see. I think you are seeing what you want to see to be honest.
I can say the same, but I wont. Math is beautiful thing, even basic one and all the posters can be counted.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
945
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 20:45:16 -
[5749] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Doddy wrote:
I think you are seeing what you want to see to be honest.
I can say the same, but I wont. Math is beautiful thing, even basic one and all the posters can be counted.
You have counted individual posters? Mucho impressed. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 20:49:11 -
[5750] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Rote answer for someone with nothing to say. ?????? The PLeX has an intrinsic value that is tied to the core of the game - Time, but also an arbitrary value of money. The time value can never alter its set in stone, but the attributes of the players can all be removed so as not to hinder any player in gaining the exact same amount of skill point's in any given time period. With the introduction of the TSP its arbitrary value can alter its already inflated value and can also be manipulated directly by CCP by controlling the commodity in game. e.g. Plex Market Price 300 million isk ( 30 days ) ++4 = 7.5 days (500k @ optimum training ) + extractor cost ( ? ) + profit margin ( % ) 1 TSP =75 million isk + extractor cost + profit margin. Plex Market Price 1 Billion isk ( 30 days ) ++4 = 7.5 days (500k @ optimum training ) + extractor cost ( ? ) + profit margin ( % ) 1 TSP =250 million isk + extractor cost + profit margin. Plex Market Price 2 Billion isk ( 30 days ) ++4 = 7.5 days (500k @ optimum training ) + extractor cost ( ? ) + profit margin ( % ) 1 TSP =500 million isk + extractor cost + profit margin. The players will never control the price of the TSP only the PLeX will. All the above is based on optimum training attribs, they change dramatically when your getting lower sp values per month. Once a character has hit the 5 mill sweet spot every week when using optimized attribs he generates 1 packet to sell, now times that by X number of characters You wil only make the profit margin off plex'd accounts but unlimited amounts from subbed farms .... Are you under some illusion that people will be giving there skill points away at bargain bin prices or something No, you are the one under the illusion the plex will control the price. This would be the case only if there was no pre-existing sp in the eve universe, and everybody who is now training skills was doing so for profit. It also assumes that the sp produced by the farmers (which everyone now is in your world) will always match the demand for TSPs (apparently coming from other farmers). All that you have done is calculate the values for a TSP at which point farming becomes profitable. The only difference between your "Math" and my "Maths" is that i have included an estimated cost for the extractor. As it is absolutely any sale of non-farmed SP can push price down and eat into profit margin. By your way of it no value is attached to the access to the game previous subs allowed, nor the game play benefits having those skills provided, all players will expect to get the plex value back despite having used it for game time. That is clearly nuts and not going to happen. The account being subbed or plexed is irrelevant, it is the same value of RL money and whatever happens you could buy a plex to sell instead. The only profit the farmer will get from his farming rather than just exchanging rl cash to isk via plex is the profit margin from your equation. This profit margin is subject to supply and demand. If supply outstrips demand sp produced by non-farmers will undercut farmers doing it for profit and make farming unprofitable (or at leat make profits so low its pointless) instantly. As such farming would be impractical while there was any meaningful historical supply (one assumes there will be a huge amount of TSP dumped when the proposal becomes reality, probably making farming impossible for months if not years) coming from outside farming, and a massive risk even when such supplies were low (changes implemented by CCP to any part of the game could see players dumping SP). Given farming is competitive, profit margin would never get very high even when demand outstripped supply since it would only encourage more competition until an equilibrium was reached. Unlike other farming in eve there would be no way to remove competition (rival isk farmers can be overcome by restricting thier access to isk sources) and only undercutting on the market would be possible. CCP can also control both supply and demand by capping how many TSP a player can consume in a month and how many TSP a player can create in a month. As such even if such limits were not in place from TSPs introduction, the fact they could implement it at any time would be a massive deterrent to farmers. If a farm is plex'd its using in game currency to keep it going, If its being subbed the only thing your going to expend on is the extractor everything else is profit. To sub a month is $15 / -ú9.99 to plex is equivalent to $25 / -ú16.99 big difference.
So your saying that even though the plex gives a base price alone for your skill points - TSP pilots are just going to make up some random figure to sell them at ???
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
|
Wanda Fayne
Gurlz with Gunz
99
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 20:53:49 -
[5751] - Quote
No.
Not supported. -1 |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
157
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 21:00:02 -
[5752] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: You quoted my post which had clearly stated quote where it was visible that we are discussing about THIS topic. Yet you have decided to spam more and comment on something we did not even mention.
"Just giving more depth in your thought" as you might say. If you found my posts irrelevant than you could just ignore them.
Don ZOLA wrote:I am not sure if you actually went behind and saw how many of your posts got deleted. If that ain`t clear message about quality of your posts then I doubt anyone can draw it for you :)
Funny that you mention it. Your previous "proof" had erased but my post still there. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
198
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 21:13:28 -
[5753] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: You quoted my post which had clearly stated quote where it was visible that we are discussing about THIS topic. Yet you have decided to spam more and comment on something we did not even mention.
"Just giving more depth in your thought" as you might say. If you found my posts irrelevant than you could just ignore them. Don ZOLA wrote:I am not sure if you actually went behind and saw how many of your posts got deleted. If that ain`t clear message about quality of your posts then I doubt anyone can draw it for you :)
Funny that you mention it. Your previous "proof" had erased but my post still there.
Your posts are mostly irrelevant, but sometimes I do not feel like letting bs be spread around as I find this issue/topic quite important considering all side effects the change will bring. As you stated before, you are pushing this for some personal reasons and I am pushing this because of my concerns for the game. So, even though I do not post that much, I still will point out now and then on lies, bs, wrong understandings, logical fallacies etc.
And that deleted post of mine which was deleted because it is kinda off topic as I have drawn for you the IAAF rules etc to explain you on how many levels you are wrong. But CCP did not let me school you and have it stay there. So you will have to google it on your own and find why you are wrong (we both know it will not happen ;) )
On the other side we have way more of yours being deleted, which proves my point about your contribution here, or better to say lack of it.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
157
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 21:39:48 -
[5754] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Great idea CCP +1 thanks for opening the game up a bit more to allow more people to enjoy themselves.
Will probably be looked back as one of the greatest changes EvE ever made once all the tin-foil hat doomsday preppers realize this isn't Y2K. Except it will not happen, no matter how much you spam without any real arguments. Even if it happens, you would not play for too long before the game dies. Lose-Lose scenario for you :/ Interesting that you call spammer only those who pro but no one who agianst don't bother you even if they present their opinions without any arguments. Are you replying only on spam which you don't like? |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
946
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 22:08:08 -
[5755] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: If a farm is plex'd its using in game currency to keep it going, If its being subbed the only thing your going to expend on is the extractor everything else is profit. To sub a month is $15 / -ú9.99 to plex is equivalent to $25 / -ú16.99 big difference.
So your saying that even though the plex gives a base price alone for your skill points - TSP pilots are just going to make up some random figure to sell them at ???
They are going to sell them for what they can get for them.... What part of supply and demand do you not understand?
It is like any product in any market which can be produced (sp which is farmed), but is also created as a by-product by another process (sp which has become unwanted). The by-product will make normal production unprofitable if demand is not high, and will always depress price. Easy in game example is tier 1 modules, people who picked them up ratting would sell them for less than people could build them for, therefore people stopped building them. Simples. People did not decide not to sell thier t1 loot because it was below build price.
In what world does somebody who has decided they want to cash in 10 mil of industry sp they don't use going look at 240 mil/TSP and think "outrageous, it should be 250mil because that is how much a farmer could make it for" and not sell it? Nobody will think that, they will follow the market, and in doing so the farmers profit margin is gone.
The discrepancy between plex and direct paid sub does give a subbed farmer more leeway, it is still far from "all profit". (It also shows why even by your own reasoning a months of SP is not worth a plex, since it could just as well be worth the sub price.)
They spend -ú9.99 on a sub and however much 4 extractors will cost (say -ú7 for simplicity, could be more or less) -> 1 month later they get 4 TSP they can sell for whatever the market value of isk 4 TSP is worth.
They spend -ú16.99 on a plex and they can sell it now for 1 Billion
They only make a profit over selling plex if TSP price stays over 1/4 of a plex. There is also a months delay, during which time SP dumping could push the price below 1/4 plex but the farmer is already committed. So it always has higher risk than just selling the plex.
Whether farming is profitable is entirely decided whether there are more people willing to sell TSP for less than 1/4 plex or more willing to buy them for more than 1/4 plex. It is soley down to supply and demand of SP. The only base cost is the cost of the extractor. The value of plex is irrelevant other than deciding the point farming will become profitable.
Obviously if demand is extreme CCP might need to limit it, but that is rather straight forward. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
201
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 22:12:56 -
[5756] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Great idea CCP +1 thanks for opening the game up a bit more to allow more people to enjoy themselves.
Will probably be looked back as one of the greatest changes EvE ever made once all the tin-foil hat doomsday preppers realize this isn't Y2K. Except it will not happen, no matter how much you spam without any real arguments. Even if it happens, you would not play for too long before the game dies. Lose-Lose scenario for you :/ Interesting that you call spammer only those who pro but no one who agianst. You don't bother even if they present their opinions without any arguments. Are you replying only on "spam" which you don't like?
If you look at the people who I have challenged the most, you will notice a pattern. As I already mentioned, Dror is quite pro this option and he did post a lot but I did not put him in the group with you, Dave, Divine intervention etc. There were others who did post a lot but I did not call them spammers. Maybe I dont like their opinions and think they are wrong but they have tried to field some arguments instead of just spamming and making "noise". With some of them I have discussed, with some I did not, depending how valuable I find their input and logic behind it.
Thanks for adding post by divine intervention btw, as his posts truly show argumentless cheering where he only insults others without having a single line of contribution to the discussion. Even you and Dave had some, minor but still, you have tried to :D
And yes, I reply only on "pro" spam, those who are against it are on the "same side" with me even though reasoning behind it might be different, I do not feel like spending time to explain them if some of them are wrong. It should be task for people who are for the change but capable to challenge their arguments, not just spam. Conclusion being, I do not have anything against opposite opinions but there have to be arguments and counter arguments for concerns of "against" side in order to have quality debate and eventually come up with some mutual understanding (we do not have to agree on "final" but we can understand each other or just agree to disagree). With spammers we cannot have that. Not that it matters to the final decision and CCP, they obviously have no intentions to communicate with us but whenever I am in mood I will challenge trolls and spammers.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
34
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 22:15:41 -
[5757] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:With 4 CSM's coming forward to say they don't like this 90% of posters saying its a flawed or bad idea 1st 20ish pages - I got bored checking Quote:Now we will see if CCP actually listens to the players Thats funny, it is about 50-50 for the other 200 pages after people actually looked ta the proposal, i wonder why you stopped checking ...
I was counting posters not posts - else your voice would 100x louder than everyone else (to be fair this applies to me too) |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 22:36:47 -
[5758] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: If a farm is plex'd its using in game currency to keep it going, If its being subbed the only thing your going to expend on is the extractor everything else is profit. To sub a month is $15 / -ú9.99 to plex is equivalent to $25 / -ú16.99 big difference.
So your saying that even though the plex gives a base price alone for your skill points - TSP pilots are just going to make up some random figure to sell them at ???
They are going to sell them for what they can get for them.... What part of supply and demand do you not understand? It is like any product in any market which can be produced (sp which is farmed), but is also created as a by-product by another process (sp which has become unwanted). The by-product will make normal production unprofitable if demand is not high, and will always depress price. Easy in game example is tier 1 modules, people who picked them up ratting would sell them for less than people could build them for, therefore people stopped building them. Simples. People did not decide not to sell thier t1 loot because it was below build price. In what world does somebody who has decided they want to cash in 10 mil of industry sp they don't use going look at 240 mil/TSP and think "outrageous, it should be 250mil because that is how much a farmer could make it for" and not sell it? Nobody will think that, they will follow the market, and in doing so the farmers profit margin is gone. The discrepancy between plex and direct paid sub does give a subbed farmer more leeway, it is still far from "all profit". (It also shows why even by your own reasoning a months of SP is not worth a plex, since it could just as well be worth the sub price.) They spend -ú9.99 on a sub and however much 4 extractors will cost (say -ú7 for simplicity, could be more or less) -> 1 month later they get 4 TSP they can sell for whatever the market value of isk 4 TSP is worth. They spend -ú16.99 on a plex and they can sell it now for 1 Billion They only make a profit over selling plex if TSP price stays over 1/4 of a plex. There is also a months delay, during which time SP dumping could push the price below 1/4 plex but the farmer is already committed. So it always has higher risk than just selling the plex. Whether farming is profitable is entirely decided whether there are more people willing to sell TSP for less than 1/4 plex or more willing to buy them for more than 1/4 plex. It is soley down to supply and demand of SP. The only base cost is the cost of the extractor. The value of plex is irrelevant other than deciding the point farming will become profitable. Obviously if demand is extreme CCP might need to limit it, but that is rather straight forward. I cannot make my mind up if your just plain thick or what, even if you forget anything about farming whatever the plex is currently trending at is you base price to sell skillpoints. i accept initially there maybe a glut but the plex gives you your base rate to sell. Time / money.
Why would anyone want to sell something that has cost them say 300m then they have to extract ( more cost ) then sell at a loss. Regardless of plex or sub once in game your time becomes equivalent to isk. at current price of 1.2 bill for 30 days.
each 24 hr period you accrue 64,800 sp's @ optimum each 24 hr period costs you 40 mill isk. So if you know how much it all costs because of the plex you still sell at a loss ????
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
157
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 22:54:12 -
[5759] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: Thanks for adding post by divine intervention btw, as his posts truly show argumentless cheering where he only insults others
He might say
Don ZOLA wrote:I am not insulting, just stating obvious Euphemisms and double standarts is powerful stuff but they could work both ways.
Don ZOLA wrote:I am in mood I will challenge trolls and spammers.
Quote:He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
201
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 23:01:07 -
[5760] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: Thanks for adding post by divine intervention btw, as his posts truly show argumentless cheering where he only insults others
He might say Don ZOLA wrote:I am not insulting, just stating obvious Euphemisms and double standarts is powerful stuff but they can work both ways. Don ZOLA wrote:I am in mood I will challenge trolls and spammers. Quote:He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.
The difference is that I provide arguments and I do not insult in his manner. I basically challenge people to prove they are not what I think they are. You see, I give them benefit of doubt and possibility that I am wrong, they just need to prove me :) When someone keeps showing my opinion about him is correct, I see no reason to avoid calling it with proper name, ie troll, spammer etc.
Thanks for caring about my posting and if I will become a monster or not, but this topic is not about me. Would you be so kind to actually start contributing to it instead using every single chance to go in digression? Thanks in advance.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
|
Nubran Pahineh
THE GWG
1
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 23:24:16 -
[5761] - Quote
I am utterly horrified by this idea. It completely guts my motivation to play. Now, instead of taking pride in my small accomplishments, I will have to endure the laughter of wealthy pigs zooming past me in their Cadillacs, flicking cigar ash in my general direction as they disappear in the distance.
Suddenly the long months and years of effort are meaningless. Why play at all? Why should I grind along in a futile effort to keep up with people who can simply outspend me forever?
This is a nice cash grab for CCP, and that's all there is to be said for it. You guys should be out there aggressively pursuing illegal account sellers, not encouraging the selling of accounts yourselves.
This is the moral equivalent of being a schoolteacher who preaches clean living to his students and makes and nice side income selling them drugs. |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
946
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 23:24:50 -
[5762] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: If a farm is plex'd its using in game currency to keep it going, If its being subbed the only thing your going to expend on is the extractor everything else is profit. To sub a month is $15 / -ú9.99 to plex is equivalent to $25 / -ú16.99 big difference.
So your saying that even though the plex gives a base price alone for your skill points - TSP pilots are just going to make up some random figure to sell them at ???
They are going to sell them for what they can get for them.... What part of supply and demand do you not understand? It is like any product in any market which can be produced (sp which is farmed), but is also created as a by-product by another process (sp which has become unwanted). The by-product will make normal production unprofitable if demand is not high, and will always depress price. Easy in game example is tier 1 modules, people who picked them up ratting would sell them for less than people could build them for, therefore people stopped building them. Simples. People did not decide not to sell thier t1 loot because it was below build price. In what world does somebody who has decided they want to cash in 10 mil of industry sp they don't use going look at 240 mil/TSP and think "outrageous, it should be 250mil because that is how much a farmer could make it for" and not sell it? Nobody will think that, they will follow the market, and in doing so the farmers profit margin is gone. The discrepancy between plex and direct paid sub does give a subbed farmer more leeway, it is still far from "all profit". (It also shows why even by your own reasoning a months of SP is not worth a plex, since it could just as well be worth the sub price.) They spend -ú9.99 on a sub and however much 4 extractors will cost (say -ú7 for simplicity, could be more or less) -> 1 month later they get 4 TSP they can sell for whatever the market value of isk 4 TSP is worth. They spend -ú16.99 on a plex and they can sell it now for 1 Billion They only make a profit over selling plex if TSP price stays over 1/4 of a plex. There is also a months delay, during which time SP dumping could push the price below 1/4 plex but the farmer is already committed. So it always has higher risk than just selling the plex. Whether farming is profitable is entirely decided whether there are more people willing to sell TSP for less than 1/4 plex or more willing to buy them for more than 1/4 plex. It is soley down to supply and demand of SP. The only base cost is the cost of the extractor. The value of plex is irrelevant other than deciding the point farming will become profitable. Obviously if demand is extreme CCP might need to limit it, but that is rather straight forward. I cannot make my mind up if your just plain thick or what, even if you forget anything about farming whatever the plex is currently trending at is you base price to sell skillpoints. i accept initially there maybe a glut but the plex gives you your base rate to sell. Time / money. Why would anyone want to sell something that has cost them say 300m then they have to extract ( more cost ) then sell at a loss. Regardless of plex or sub once in game your time becomes equivalent to isk. at current price of 1.2 bill for 30 days. each 24 hr period you accrue 64,800 sp's @ optimum each 24 hr period costs you 40 mill isk. So if you know how much it all costs because of the plex you still sell at a loss ????
It is not me who is thick, it is you who have a four year olds understanding of value. Why would somebody sell something that has cost them 300mil for less than 300mil? Obviously because they don't want/need it any more and somebody who does want it will only give them less than 300 mil for it. Are you really that dumb? Why would anyone not sell it? 10 million unused SP, or 2.5 billion isk, hmm I wonder which is more usefull to all non idiots playing the game.
I suppose you think all unwanted items in the world are sold only for their original cost price .....
Not that the sp cost them that in the first place, in addition to 1 chars months training time a months sub also gives access to the game for up to 3 different chars, the only way to gain that access. A plex does not equal 1 months sp. A plex equals 1 months access to the game, and 1 months sp. But then so does a directly paid sub. So somebody who paid for a years sub has only paid the value of 6 plex for a years access to the game and a years skill training. So even if they insist on "getting their money back " as it were and discounted access to the game, they still value that SP at half your plex -> SP value. Given most people value access to the game the potential of SP is even lower. Regardless how much was paid for it however useless SP is useless, and value is always, always, always what somebody is willing to pay.
Before reading this thread I would happily have taken 100 mil isk (net) for a million of my unwanted SP, hell even less if somebody would take it all. If t is useless to me I will take what I can get for it, and so will all normal people not fixated on entirely made up ideas of "value".
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
157
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 23:30:12 -
[5763] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: I basically challenge people to prove they are not what I think they are.
Lets talk about nation culture. ISD will delete our convisation anyway. Russians have popular expression "-ö-+-¦-¦-¦-+ -ç-é-+ -é-ï -+-¦ -¦-¦-Ç-¦-+-Ä-¦" translated like "Prove you're not a camel". It forcing opponent to prove obvious things. Also it's one of demagogue methods. I have no intend to feed you, mr.green. |
Veraca Darmazaf
EVE University Ivy League
10
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 23:30:59 -
[5764] - Quote
Nubran Pahineh wrote:
I am utterly horrified by this idea. It completely guts my motivation to play. Now, instead of taking pride in my small accomplishments, I will have to endure the laughter of wealthy pigs zooming past me in their Cadillacs, flicking cigar ash in my general direction as they disappear in the distance.
The only 'accomplishment' that may be devalued that I see is paying for your sub over whatever duration to acquire what SP you have. I hope gaining SP wasn't the only reason you've been here.
Care to elaborate? |
Nubran Pahineh
THE GWG
2
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 23:46:30 -
[5765] - Quote
Veraca Darmazaf wrote:Nubran Pahineh wrote:
I am utterly horrified by this idea. It completely guts my motivation to play. Now, instead of taking pride in my small accomplishments, I will have to endure the laughter of wealthy pigs zooming past me in their Cadillacs, flicking cigar ash in my general direction as they disappear in the distance.
The only 'accomplishment' that may be devalued that I see is paying for your sub over whatever duration to acquire what SP you have. I hope gaining SP wasn't the only reason you've been here. Care to elaborate?
Sure. Every skill I have painstakingly acquired will now be trumped by anyone with a fat wallet. It no longer matters how good I am, how skilled I am, or how long I have played. All that matters is the wealth of the guy who just blapped me with a capital while my best ship is a cruiser.
Short on isk for the capital? Buy a ton of plex and sell em in game. You could be flying a Titan on your second day of play if you wanted to.
And that is why 95% of this thread is composed of people who are violently opposed to SP selling. The other 5% is obviously composed of wealthy people who are just drooling at the chance to buy their way to the front of the line like they always do.
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
946
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 23:48:56 -
[5766] - Quote
Nubran Pahineh wrote:
I am utterly horrified by this idea. It completely guts my motivation to play. Now, instead of taking pride in my small accomplishments, I will have to endure the laughter of wealthy pigs zooming past me in their Cadillacs, flicking cigar ash in my general direction as they disappear in the distance.
Suddenly the long months and years of effort are meaningless. Why play at all? Why should I grind along in a futile effort to keep up with people who can simply outspend me forever?
This is a nice cash grab for CCP, and that's all there is to be said for it. You guys should be out there aggressively pursuing illegal account sellers, not encouraging the selling of accounts yourselves.
This is the moral equivalent of being a schoolteacher who preaches clean living to his students and makes and nice side income selling them drugs.
"Effort"? you paying for a sub in the past is "effort" compared to people paying more money for less sp now? And if you play eve to keep up with people its probably not the game for you anwyway, you can never "keep up" with people who started before you in any case. In fact the only way you could would be if you made some isk and used this proposal. i can see you lack the motivation to do so, but I sure there will be plenty who have it.
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
201
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 23:49:17 -
[5767] - Quote
Veraca Darmazaf wrote:Nubran Pahineh wrote:
I am utterly horrified by this idea. It completely guts my motivation to play. Now, instead of taking pride in my small accomplishments, I will have to endure the laughter of wealthy pigs zooming past me in their Cadillacs, flicking cigar ash in my general direction as they disappear in the distance.
The only 'accomplishment' that may be devalued that I see is paying for your sub over whatever duration to acquire what SP you have. I hope gaining SP wasn't the only reason you've been here. Care to elaborate?
The fact that you do not see something does not mean it is not there. Skill queue was not here since start, remaps were not available. It actually took effort to plan skills and change them on time in order to have maximum possible.
Let alone, if you want to have discussion about other players concerns, there are plenty of mentioned side effects which could happen in this thread. Takes some effort to read it though :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
946
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 23:54:20 -
[5768] - Quote
Nubran Pahineh wrote:Veraca Darmazaf wrote:Nubran Pahineh wrote:
I am utterly horrified by this idea. It completely guts my motivation to play. Now, instead of taking pride in my small accomplishments, I will have to endure the laughter of wealthy pigs zooming past me in their Cadillacs, flicking cigar ash in my general direction as they disappear in the distance.
The only 'accomplishment' that may be devalued that I see is paying for your sub over whatever duration to acquire what SP you have. I hope gaining SP wasn't the only reason you've been here. Care to elaborate? Sure. Every skill I have painstakingly acquired will now be trumped by anyone with a fat wallet. It no longer matters how good I am, how skilled I am, or how long I have played. All that matters is the wealth of the guy who just blapped me with a capital while my best ship is a cruiser. Short on isk for the capital? Buy a ton of plex and sell em in game. You could be flying a Titan on your second day of play if you wanted to. And that is why 95% of this thread is composed of people who are violently opposed to SP selling. The other 5% is obviously composed of wealthy people who are just drooling at the chance to buy their way to the front of the line like they always do.
Hate to break it to you bro, but how good you are, how skilled you are or how long you have played has never mattered, only how long you subbed for.
And really, if somebody really wants to have a titan day 2, and thereby lets everybody else play for 100mil isk a month or whatever after they crash the plex market with the half million bucks or so that would take, would that actually be a bad thing? I mean they could already just buy a titan char in the bazaar for a fraction of the price but oh knoes, they would be stuck with someone elses name.
|
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 23:55:04 -
[5769] - Quote
They have a name for the in-game item to utilize this feature, it will happen. Resistance is futile.
+1 CCP
ps: Can I have your (skillpoint-)stuff? |
Nubran Pahineh
THE GWG
3
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 00:01:17 -
[5770] - Quote
Ask yourself why people play hockey. Then ask yourself, would they still play if the rules of the game allowed any player to simply buy as many goals as he could afford?
How about a 100 yard dash where you are allowed to drive a car, if you can afford it? Would you sell any tickets to that? |
|
Veraca Darmazaf
EVE University Ivy League
13
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 00:02:00 -
[5771] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Veraca Darmazaf wrote:Nubran Pahineh wrote:
I am utterly horrified by this idea. It completely guts my motivation to play. Now, instead of taking pride in my small accomplishments, I will have to endure the laughter of wealthy pigs zooming past me in their Cadillacs, flicking cigar ash in my general direction as they disappear in the distance.
The only 'accomplishment' that may be devalued that I see is paying for your sub over whatever duration to acquire what SP you have. I hope gaining SP wasn't the only reason you've been here. Care to elaborate? The fact that you do not see something does not mean it is not there. Skill queue was not here since start, remaps were not available. It actually took effort to plan skills and change them on time in order to have maximum possible. Let alone, if you want to have discussion about other players concerns, there are plenty of mentioned side effects which could happen in this thread. Takes some effort to read it though :) To the first part, I am aware. That's why I asked. To the second, I will freely admit to not reading the whole thing. The signal to noise ratio is insane. |
Veraca Darmazaf
EVE University Ivy League
13
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 00:06:37 -
[5772] - Quote
Nubran Pahineh wrote:Veraca Darmazaf wrote: The only 'accomplishment' that may be devalued that I see is paying for your sub over whatever duration to acquire what SP you have. I hope gaining SP wasn't the only reason you've been here.
Care to elaborate?
Sure. Every skill I have painstakingly acquired will now be trumped by anyone with a fat wallet. It no longer matters how good I am, how skilled I am, or how long I have played. All that matters is the wealth of the guy who just blapped me with a capital while my best ship is a cruiser. Short on isk for the capital? Buy a ton of plex and sell em in game. You could be flying a Titan on your second day of play if you wanted to. And that is why 95% of this thread is composed of people who are violently opposed to SP selling. The other 5% is obviously composed of wealthy people who are just drooling at the chance to buy their way to the front of the line like they always do.
You feel the effort you made at managing your skill queue will have been wasted if it's made irrelevant to people with money to burn, is that it? |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
947
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 00:08:17 -
[5773] - Quote
Nubran Pahineh wrote: Ask yourself why people play hockey. Then ask yourself, would they still play if the rules of the game allowed any player to simply buy as many goals as he could afford?
How about a 100 yard dash where you are allowed to drive a car, if you can afford it? Would you sell any tickets to that?
That is a terrible analogy. What it would actually be would be that if you turned up to a hockey game, but the other players had been allowed to score goals in the game for the last 12 years so long as they paid the organisers. But now the organiser was going to allow you to stump up some rl cash, or better yet some actual talent to catch up some of those goals. Though in truth the game already allowed you to buy a load of the goals already scored in the same way anyway, so long as you used the older players name.
Not that eve is a) competitive, b) a sport or c) has spectators. So I don't really know where you are coming from.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
158
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 00:08:37 -
[5774] - Quote
Nubran Pahineh wrote: Sure. Every skill I have painstakingly acquired will now be trumped by anyone with a fat wallet. It no longer matters how good I am, how skilled I am, or how long I have played. All that matters is the wealth of the guy who just blapped me with a capital while my best ship is a cruiser.
1) They already can buy toon from bazaar 2) There is a lot of players who already have capitals and could blap you anytime you wish. It's sandbox man.
Nubran Pahineh wrote: And that is why 95% of this thread is composed of people who are violently opposed to SP selling. The other 5% is obviously composed of wealthy people who are just drooling at the chance to buy their way to the front of the line like they always do.
Yahooo I'm rich. |
Laurew
Original Black Plague
4
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 03:00:34 -
[5775] - Quote
if ccp want to be serious about making the micro transactions work then they need to give us value for money.
the nes store in its current form is just a rip-off, plain and simple. Make the items available much, much cheaper and with a whole lot more variety and i think it will entice people to spend money on AUR.
dedicate a team specifically for the NES store, constantly bring out new things to buy at a great price (paying $20 for a single ship skin is a joke.) and profit.
Bringing in skill trading is a terrible idea if ccp are looking to profit from micro transactions. |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
225
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 06:44:58 -
[5776] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:[ Though, maybe if financial situation gets better with this, maybe they wont even care about those who quit. We will see.
If someone quits over this, the chances are they would have quit sooner or later anyway.
Or they may see it as the last straw, but that would mean they're already unhappy about the direction the game is moving in. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
494
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 07:23:48 -
[5777] - Quote
Doddy wrote:"Effort"? you paying for a sub in the past is "effort" compared to people paying more money for less sp now? And if you play eve to keep up with people its probably not the game for you anwyway, you can never "keep up" with people who started before you in any case. In fact the only way you could would be if you made some isk and used this proposal. i can see you lack the motivation to do so, but I sure there will be plenty who have it. False asumption that "new players will catch up". They won't, because of hard cap. Wanna bet the biggest troll here will cry for more when he hit 50 mil? Because "shut up and take my money!". I don't think 50 mil is enough to fly all hulls and using all weapons on T2 level (not to mention support skills etc.).
Laurew wrote:if ccp want to be serious about making the micro transactions work then they need to give us value for money.
the nes store in its current form is just a rip-off, plain and simple. Make the items available much, much cheaper and with a whole lot more variety and i think it will entice people to spend money on AUR.
dedicate a team specifically for the NES store, constantly bring out new things to buy at a great price (paying $20 for a single ship skin is a joke.) and profit.
Bringing in skill trading is a terrible idea if ccp are looking to profit from micro transactions. but CCP is happy with NES store, it's a success didn't you read CSM minutes. They want more, that's why SP for $ is proposed. They know their "gaining experience system" is flawed but they want to earn on it. So instead revamp they will introduce "new feature" to help players experience the game, for cash ofc.
General Lootit wrote:ISD will delete our convisation anyway. Then stop posting it here, it's getting boring to flag most of your posts as junk.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
201
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 09:02:16 -
[5778] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:[ Though, maybe if financial situation gets better with this, maybe they wont even care about those who quit. We will see. If someone quits over this, the chances are they would have quit sooner or later anyway. Or they may see it as the last straw, but that would mean they're already unhappy about the direction the game is moving in.
I do not agree. As this is unprecedented change. I agree some people did quit over some changes in past, but this is the first time game fundamentals are being changed. So people, as paying customers have a new stance with CCP in which they are aware that there is no consistency from CCP side and that anything at all can be changed. And paying customers usually are not in favor of such things, everyone wants to know what they are paying and what to expect from it.
For some it will definitely be the last straw, for some this straw will be enough. And obviously a lot of people do not like the direction the company is going in.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1729
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 09:09:28 -
[5779] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:but CCP is happy with NES store, it's a success didn't you read CSM minutes. They want more, that's why SP for $ is proposed. They know their "gaining experience system" is flawed but they want to earn on it. So instead revamp they will introduce "new feature" to help players experience the game, for cash ofc. Actually no, this is SP for isk, but for some reason the general consensus seems to be that no one can earn any isk save by PLEX, which makes no sense since someone has to buy that PLEX for it to work.
If you ignore the fact that SP is being market traded, which is a pretty key point, then sure you can call it cash for SP; if you pretend no players have the earning capacity for them, which is impossible else PLEX would cease to function and collapse in price, then you can also make the same statement. Basically if you ignore reality this becomes cash for SP.
What it you're exchanging cash for is the ability to sell SP for ISK (just like PLEX) or to relocate your own. |
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 09:59:24 -
[5780] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:but CCP is happy with NES store, it's a success didn't you read CSM minutes. They want more, that's why SP for $ is proposed. They know their "gaining experience system" is flawed but they want to earn on it. So instead revamp they will introduce "new feature" to help players experience the game, for cash ofc. Actually no, this is SP for isk, but for some reason the general consensus seems to be that no one can earn any isk save by PLEX, which makes no sense since someone has to buy that PLEX for it to work.
And for some reason, some people ignore the fact that a person/alliance that has a lot of real life cash, can buy a LOT of PLEX, and with that a LOT of SP, which is pretty much the definition of pay to win. |
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
495
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 10:06:21 -
[5781] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Actually no, this is SP for isk, but for some reason the general consensus seems to be that no one can earn any isk save by PLEX, which makes no sense since someone has to buy that PLEX for it to work.
You may say that SKINs are for ISK too, then why CCP gets real money for them?
Tyberius Franklin wrote:What it is you're exchanging cash for is the ability to sell SP for ISK (just like PLEX) or to relocate your own. Decide, begining and end of your post are in contradiction. First you wrote it's ISK, then RL cash. Tiberius please stop with relocating your own skill points statement. It's not going to happen. I've hit 50 mil 2 days ago, relocating SP on my main just stopped to pay off, drawback is too big.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
190
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 10:18:49 -
[5782] - Quote
Tippia wrote: it will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it. That is an issue in and of itself. Logically this. Bypassing game mechanics is always bad.
I do not endorse this proposition. |
Jared Khanar
80
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 10:34:45 -
[5783] - Quote
Hm just as a question for opinions:
If this really should be perceived only as an enhancement to the character bazaar:
- CB allows you to pay for the transfer of a character with unlimited amounts of sp contained - transfer fee is the same if there are 1m or 200m on the character. - ST allows you to pay for the transfer of a limited amount of sp + destroying some of these upon injection
If this is designed as an alternative shouldn-¦t it allow also "unlimited" amounts of sp trades without destruction per payed fee? (The same principle cb follows?)
Isn-¦t the only big difference between cb and sp trading the fact, that this only allows ccp to charge rl money for the transfered amount of sps now, too?
Is this really only an enhancement of trading abilities for the players without the attempt to additionally cash in on something "new"?
Does this new, second rl payment for specific amounts of sp vanish because players are able to trade them on the market after ccp has obtained money?
Economic Services
trading spacepixels
|
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
37
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 10:35:12 -
[5784] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Amanda Orion wrote: Your well reasoned intellectual argument has fully explored the commercial implications of showing long standing loyal customers that they are considered less important than new customers, or even possibly expendable.
Thank you so much.
Very loyal Vahligmarr wrote:I just cancelled my account. You can leave a message why you quit in the process. I did.
Jeremiah Saken wrote: I don't know if I want to be part of it when that happens. Daniela Doran wrote: I'm losing all interest to log in anymore thanks to you. For really long standing loyal players spring will show a bunch of new things.
Well, I was subscribed to this game continuously for more than 9 years.
I never bought game time with ISK, this is a lot of money.
This is loyality.This is a 1000 $+ loyality!
So catch up with this first, then catch up with my 190million SP with your new shiny SP for RealMoney Mechanic you praise that much, and then judge me again, loyal one.
If this terrible idea hits the Servers, I'm gone. In my opinion CCP is crossing a line here. Loyality?! Iwill not forget what was promised when they introduced Aurum.... |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 11:42:38 -
[5785] - Quote
Doddy wrote:It is not me who is thick, it is you who have a four year olds understanding of value. Why would somebody sell something that has cost them 300mil for less than 300mil? Obviously because they don't want/need it any more and somebody who does want it will only give them less than 300 mil for it. Are you really that dumb? Why would anyone not sell it? 10 million unused SP, or 2.5 billion isk, hmm I wonder which is more usefull to all non idiots playing the game. I suppose you think all unwanted items in the world are sold only for their original cost price ..... Not that the sp cost them that in the first place, in addition to 1 chars months training time a months sub also gives access to the game for up to 3 different chars, the only way to gain that access. A plex does not equal 1 months sp. A plex equals 1 months access to the game, and 1 months sp. But then so does a directly paid sub. So somebody who paid for a years sub has only paid the value of 6 plex for a years access to the game and a years skill training. So even if they insist on "getting their money back " as it were and discounted access to the game, they still value that SP at half your plex -> SP value. Given most people value access to the game the potential of SP is even lower. Regardless how much was paid for it however useless SP is useless, and value is always, always, always what somebody is willing to pay. Before reading this thread I would happily have taken 100 mil isk (net) for a million of my unwanted SP, hell even less if somebody would take it all. If t is useless to me I will take what I can get for it, and so will all normal people not fixated on entirely made up ideas of "value". @ Levi Belvar The more eloquent phrase for the point your trying to make is Seigniorage The plex equalling a gold bar and Isk equalling paper currency / coinage.
Do not misinterpret someones seeming ignorance, lack of understanding or wall of text as anything other than misdirection. When at a time where there are great fortunes to be made at the customers lack of true value in an object. Large corporations and alliances are naturally going to be backing this 100% but decrying it's true worth to reap the values of buying low. @ Doddy
Doddy wrote:I suppose you think all unwanted items in the world are sold only for their original cost price ..... If it was made of gold, naturally. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
158
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 15:20:12 -
[5786] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote: I've hit 50 mil 2 days ago It's explains everything you wrote. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
158
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 15:58:19 -
[5787] - Quote
Vahligmarr wrote: So catch up with this first, then catch up with my 190million SP with your new shiny SP for RealMoney Mechanic you praise that much, and then judge me again, loyal one.
Lets do some math. For catching you up mad rich man need to use 2472.5 injectors(2200 to burn from 80m to 190m SP). Each injector will cost non less than 1/4 of plex. 2472/4=618 plexes=12000$.12000$ minimum because market won't allow to buy 2472 injectors simultaneously and by the same price. |
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 16:50:16 -
[5788] - Quote
General Lootit wrote: Lets do some math. For catching you up mad rich man need to use 2472.5 injectors(2200 to burn from 80m to 190m SP). Each injector will cost non less than 1/4 of plex. 2472/4=618 plexes=12000$.12000$ minimum because market won't allow to buy 2472 injectors simultaneously and by the same price.
Yes, it can't possibly do any harm unless taken to the absolute extreme.
^^ |
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
38
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 17:01:51 -
[5789] - Quote
...I don't think you got my "loyality point" ;)
+ let your "math" aside, the big change is not what is happening from 100 to 200 Million SP, the change is, with SPT you can have a skill up to lvl 5 instantly. Which is a huge advantage, when something new comes out ( skill, ship, module ). No matter how you call it, you will hit a paywall then, if you want to be competitive, a paywal in a subscription based game!
And who guarantees that this will be last step, there will be more "game changing sweeties" in the AUR store soon, which are not obtaiable otherwise right now. More "free to play" stuff for real money on top of your subscription fee.... how can I accept that? |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
158
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 17:21:41 -
[5790] - Quote
Vahligmarr wrote: + let your "math" aside, the big change is not what is happening from 100 to 200 Million SP, the change is, with SPT you can have a skill up to lvl 5 instantly. Which is a huge advantage, when something new comes out ( skill, ship, module ). No matter how you call it, you will hit a paywall then, if you want to be competitive, a paywal in a subscription based game!
If you want to be competitive than compete with isk. Anyway it's your problem, not mine.
|
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
34
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 17:30:46 -
[5791] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Vahligmarr wrote: So catch up with this first, then catch up with my 190million SP with your new shiny SP for RealMoney Mechanic you praise that much, and then judge me again, loyal one.
Lets do some math. For catching you up mad rich man need to use 2472.5 injectors(2200 to burn from 80m to 190m SP). Each injector will cost non less than 1/4 of plex. 2472/4=618 plexes=12000$. Noob with 190m SP. Will be fuuny to watch.
These are very rough figures, I read that a fitted Titan costs about 175 Plex to build.
If that is a correct figure: To buy SP for a Titan pilot would cost about 3 - 3.1/2 Titans To buy SP for a Super carrier Pilot is much cheaper - 1.1/2 - 2 Titans worth.
The Major Alliances & Big Corps have a system in place to replace Capital ship losses and have enough isk to do so. There were 108 Titans lost last year and they have been replaced (and in some cases already lost again).
Getting ships to fly is not a problem.
Earning ISK to buy stuff is not a problem.
The limiting factor is the time investment into Skill Points. If buying SP was a thing then it becomes far too easy to buy your way to victory - Pay to Win - and with the direction SOV is taking with localized combat zones & jump restrictions then much more emphasis will be placed on multiple battle groups.
But if you have pilots but they lack skills and if you can only hold what you can defend: Then a 'cheap' ALT carrier / supercarrier or Titan pilot provided to members by an alliance to bolster your zone's battle group is not out of the realm of possibility.
and the other ALT, sure... Here's a perfect miner and a multiple training certificate you can mine ore and farm Skill Points for us with that one. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
158
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 17:41:31 -
[5792] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:General Lootit wrote:Vahligmarr wrote: So catch up with this first, then catch up with my 190million SP with your new shiny SP for RealMoney Mechanic you praise that much, and then judge me again, loyal one.
Lets do some math. For catching you up mad rich man need to use 2472.5 injectors(2200 to burn from 80m to 190m SP). Each injector will cost non less than 1/4 of plex. 2472/4=618 plexes=12000$. Noob with 190m SP. Will be fuuny to watch. These are very rough figures, I read that a fitted Titan costs about 175 Plex to build. If that is a correct figure: To buy SP for a Titan pilot would cost about 3 - 3.1/2 Titans To buy SP for a Super carrier Pilot is much cheaper - 1.1/2 - 2 Titans worth. The Major Alliances & Big Corps have a system in place to replace Capital ship losses and have enough isk to do so. There were 108 Titans lost last year and they have been replaced (and in some cases already lost again). Getting ships to fly is not a problem. Earning ISK to buy stuff is not a problem. The limiting factor is the time investment into Skill Points. If buying SP was a thing then it becomes far too easy to buy your way to victory - Pay to Win - and with the direction SOV is taking with localized combat zones & jump restrictions then much more emphasis will be placed on multiple battle groups. But if you have pilots but they lack skills and if you can only hold what you can defend: Then a 'cheap' ALT carrier / supercarrier or Titan pilot provided to members by an alliance to bolster your zone's battle group is not out of the realm of possibility. and the other ALT, sure... Here's a perfect miner and a multiple training certificate you can mine ore and farm Skill Points for us with that one. I have one big fat question: where are they members of Major Alliances & Big Corps? When they come to defend SP market if it so beneficial for them? |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
34
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 17:45:26 -
[5793] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:General Lootit wrote:Vahligmarr wrote: So catch up with this first, then catch up with my 190million SP with your new shiny SP for RealMoney Mechanic you praise that much, and then judge me again, loyal one.
Lets do some math. For catching you up mad rich man need to use 2472.5 injectors(2200 to burn from 80m to 190m SP). Each injector will cost non less than 1/4 of plex. 2472/4=618 plexes=12000$. Noob with 190m SP. Will be fuuny to watch. These are very rough figures, I read that a fitted Titan costs about 175 Plex to build. If that is a correct figure: To buy SP for a Titan pilot would cost about 3 - 3.1/2 Titans To buy SP for a Super carrier Pilot is much cheaper - 1.1/2 - 2 Titans worth. The Major Alliances & Big Corps have a system in place to replace Capital ship losses and have enough isk to do so. There were 108 Titans lost last year and they have been replaced (and in some cases already lost again). Getting ships to fly is not a problem. Earning ISK to buy stuff is not a problem. The limiting factor is the time investment into Skill Points. If buying SP was a thing then it becomes far too easy to buy your way to victory - Pay to Win - and with the direction SOV is taking with localized combat zones & jump restrictions then much more emphasis will be placed on multiple battle groups. But if you have pilots but they lack skills and if you can only hold what you can defend: Then a 'cheap' ALT carrier / supercarrier or Titan pilot provided to members by an alliance to bolster your zone's battle group is not out of the realm of possibility. and the other ALT, sure... Here's a perfect miner and a multiple training certificate you can mine ore and farm Skill Points for us with that one. I have one big fat question: where are they members of Major Alliances & Big Corps? When they come to defend SP market if it so beneficial for them?
I think they know they don't have to defend it because it's already a done deal |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
158
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 17:49:21 -
[5794] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote: I think they know they don't have to defend it because it's already a done deal
But you still writing here... You know something that they don't?
Iowa Banshee wrote: Edit: How do you know they are not defending it already?
Show me example. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
34
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 17:54:01 -
[5795] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: I think they know they don't have to defend it because it's already a done deal
But you still writing here...
You've gotta have hope,
I Hope someone will listen.
|
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
242
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 17:54:30 -
[5796] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:General Lootit wrote:Vahligmarr wrote: So catch up with this first, then catch up with my 190million SP with your new shiny SP for RealMoney Mechanic you praise that much, and then judge me again, loyal one.
Lets do some math. For catching you up mad rich man need to use 2472.5 injectors(2200 to burn from 80m to 190m SP). Each injector will cost non less than 1/4 of plex. 2472/4=618 plexes=12000$. Noob with 190m SP. Will be fuuny to watch. These are very rough figures, I read that a fitted Titan costs about 175 Plex to build. If that is a correct figure: To buy SP for a Titan pilot would cost about 3 - 3.1/2 Titans To buy SP for a Super carrier Pilot is much cheaper - 1.1/2 - 2 Titans worth. The Major Alliances & Big Corps have a system in place to replace Capital ship losses and have enough isk to do so. There were 108 Titans lost last year and they have been replaced (and in some cases already lost again). Getting ships to fly is not a problem. Earning ISK to buy stuff is not a problem. The limiting factor is the time investment into Skill Points. If buying SP was a thing then it becomes far too easy to buy your way to victory - Pay to Win - and with the direction SOV is taking with localized combat zones & jump restrictions then much more emphasis will be placed on multiple battle groups. But if you have pilots but they lack skills and if you can only hold what you can defend: Then a 'cheap' ALT carrier / supercarrier or Titan pilot provided to members by an alliance to bolster your zone's battle group is not out of the realm of possibility. and the other ALT, sure... Here's a perfect miner and a multiple training certificate you can mine ore and farm Skill Points for us with that one. I have one big fat question: where are they members of Major Alliances & Big Corps? When they come to defend SP market if it so beneficial for them?
the thread is 5700 post in. on a topic that they said they where playing with and wanted ideas and the opinion of the community. most groups have had there say someone is this cluster f of a thread and after they had there say they moved on as until more information is known from ccp there really isnt much more to be said. |
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
38
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 17:57:09 -
[5797] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: I think they know they don't have to defend it because it's already a done deal
But you still writing here... You know something that they don't?
You are such a troll, what about "General Trollit" next time? You don't have anymore arguments, do you? |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
158
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 18:05:07 -
[5798] - Quote
Vahligmarr wrote:General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: I think they know they don't have to defend it because it's already a done deal
But you still writing here... You know something that they don't? You are such a troll, what about "General Trollit" next time? You don't have anymore arguments, do you? I appreciate your creativity. I thought we having fun here becuse
Lady Rift wrote: there really isnt much more to be said.
Iowa Banshee wrote: it's already a done deal
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1730
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 21:13:30 -
[5799] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Actually no, this is SP for isk, but for some reason the general consensus seems to be that no one can earn any isk save by PLEX, which makes no sense since someone has to buy that PLEX for it to work.
You may say that SKINs are for ISK too, then why CCP gets real money for them? Tyberius Franklin wrote:What it is you're exchanging cash for is the ability to sell SP for ISK (just like PLEX) or to relocate your own. Decide, begining and end of your post are in contradiction. First you wrote it's ISK, then RL cash. Tiberius please stop with relocating your own skill points statement. It's not going to happen. I've hit 50 mil 2 days ago, relocating SP on my main just stopped to pay off, drawback is too big. There is no contradiction.
There is only 1 avenue to purchase SP. Isk.
That one can use money to get isk is no more relevant here than it is for any other thing sold for isk in game.
That the seller must pay AUR doesn't contradict that the buyer only pays isk. Thus at no point can you say the proposal offers SP for cash.
Further, that you aren't happy with the exchange rate for reallocating SP doesn't mean that's a universal. Your situation and perception of value are limited to a single person.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1730
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 21:19:40 -
[5800] - Quote
Vahligmarr wrote:...I don't think you got my "loyality point" ;)
+ let your "math" aside, the big change is not what is happening from 100 to 200 Million SP, the change is, with SPT you can have a skill up to lvl 5 instantly. Which is a huge advantage, when something new comes out ( skill, ship, module ). No matter how you call it, you will hit a paywall then, if you want to be competitive.
- a paywal in a subscription based game!
And who guarantees this will be last step, there will be more "game changing sweeties" in the AUR store soon, which are not obtainable otherwise right now. More "free to play" stuff for real money on top of your subscription fee.... how can I accept that? No, skills being to lvl 5 is not a huge advantage, it's a huge investment for the same amount of advantage as any other level of the same skill. Lvl 4 training is comparatively trivial and offers 80% on any advantage conveyed by the skill. The only time lvl 5 skills have significant meaning is when they are prerequisites, and if you want to call that a paywall, fine. Just realize that paywall has been in place since day one combined with a mandatory wait period and the only argument here is that the wait period somehow makes the paywall better. |
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 21:48:41 -
[5801] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:That the seller must pay AUR doesn't contradict that the buyer only pays isk. Thus at no point can you say the proposal offers SP for cash. To sell an item requires a seller and buyer to complete a transaction.
Transaction . An agreement between a buyer and a seller to exchange goods, services or financial recompense.
So seeing as you can't have one without the other then it is Skillpoints for cash.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
158
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 21:56:37 -
[5802] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: So seeing as you can't have one without the other then it is Skillpoints for cash.
Follow your logic I know another item that already gives you skillpoints for cash. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1734
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 21:58:37 -
[5803] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:That the seller must pay AUR doesn't contradict that the buyer only pays isk. Thus at no point can you say the proposal offers SP for cash. To sell an item requires a seller and buyer to complete a transaction. Transaction . An agreement between a buyer and a seller to exchange goods, services or financial recompense. So seeing as you can't have one without the other then it is Skillpoints for cash. So we have 2 separate transactions, one not involving the buyer, and one involving the buyer. The former involves AUR, the latter does not.
The buyer at no point needs to interact with AUR or cash to participate. If we want to include every transaction that at one point included exchange to a AUR/Cash item every item bought by the recipient of isk for PLEX becomes a "cash" item by virtue of rl PLEX cost. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:00:20 -
[5804] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: So seeing as you can't have one without the other then it is Skillpoints for cash.
Follow your logic I know another item that already gives you skillpoints for cash. Nobody has ever denied the bazaar is the same thing in principal but was introduced to counter RMT, this is just blatantly doing it and also introducing yet another way TO RMT as well.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1734
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:02:30 -
[5805] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: So seeing as you can't have one without the other then it is Skillpoints for cash.
Follow your logic I know another item that already gives you skillpoints for cash. Nobody has ever denied the bazaar is the same thing in principal but was introduced to counter RMT, this is just blatantly doing it and also introducing yet another way TO RMT as well. You don't even have to go to the Bazaar for this one, PLEX qualifies here. 30 days of SP per PLEX, just with some added wait time.
What this does do though is reduce the entry point for Bazaar like participation from the several billion range, making smaller amounts of SP more accessible, reducing the need for isk based RMT (whether legally through PLEX or otherwise). |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:03:54 -
[5806] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:That the seller must pay AUR doesn't contradict that the buyer only pays isk. Thus at no point can you say the proposal offers SP for cash. To sell an item requires a seller and buyer to complete a transaction. Transaction . An agreement between a buyer and a seller to exchange goods, services or financial recompense. So seeing as you can't have one without the other then it is Skillpoints for cash. So we have 2 separate transactions, one not involving the buyer, and one involving the buyer. The former involves AUR, the latter does not. The buyer at no point needs to interact with AUR or cash to participate. If we want to include every transaction that at one point included exchange to a AUR/Cash item every item bought by the recipient of isk for PLEX becomes a "cash" item by virtue of rl PLEX cost. You cannot create the TSP without the aurum puchase ergo the sale of the extractor filled which is the TSP has needed to be purchased out of game.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:05:38 -
[5807] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: So seeing as you can't have one without the other then it is Skillpoints for cash.
Follow your logic I know another item that already gives you skillpoints for cash. Nobody has ever denied the bazaar is the same thing in principal but was introduced to counter RMT, this is just blatantly doing it and also introducing yet another way TO RMT as well. You don't even have to go to the Bazaar for this one, PLEX qualifies here. 30 days of SP per PLEX, just with some added wait time. What this does do though is reduce the entry point for Bazaar like participation from the several billion range, making smaller amounts of SP more accessible, reducing the need for isk based RMT (whether legally through PLEX or otherwise). Without the wait time ( Time investment ) it just has an isk value.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1734
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:06:50 -
[5808] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:You cannot create the TSP without the aurum puchase ergo the sale of the extractor filled which is the TSP has needed to be purchased out of game. Sure, by the seller, not the buyer. The buyer again cannot exchange cash for SP. Someone else does to make it available, but you literally cannot give cash and get SP.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:11:12 -
[5809] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:You cannot create the TSP without the aurum puchase ergo the sale of the extractor filled which is the TSP has needed to be purchased out of game. Sure, by the seller, not the buyer. The buyer again cannot exchange cash for SP. Someone else does to make it available, but you literally cannot give cash and get SP. So to complete 1 transaction needs a out of game cash purchase for the sale to be completed.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1734
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:11:39 -
[5810] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Without the wait time ( Time investment ) it just has an isk value. I'm not sure whether you're trying to disagree here, but that's exactly what I said. The irony here is that you consider this "just (has) an isk value", despite originating from real money, yet seem to be arguing that TSPs have an effective cash value. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1734
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:14:06 -
[5811] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:You cannot create the TSP without the aurum puchase ergo the sale of the extractor filled which is the TSP has needed to be purchased out of game. Sure, by the seller, not the buyer. The buyer again cannot exchange cash for SP. Someone else does to make it available, but you literally cannot give cash and get SP. So to complete 1 transaction needs a out of game cash purchase for the sale to be completed. No, to complete 2 transactions that is needed. The purchase of an extractor is not one and the same as the sale of a packet. The former is needed for the latter, but doesn't itself necessitate the latter.
Thus the buyer is completely abstracted from the AUR purchase. There is no way for them to exchange cash for SP.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
158
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:14:17 -
[5812] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: Without the wait time ( Time investment ) it just has an isk value.
If you know method to earn isk without time investments than let me know. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:20:42 -
[5813] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:You cannot create the TSP without the aurum puchase ergo the sale of the extractor filled which is the TSP has needed to be purchased out of game. Sure, by the seller, not the buyer. The buyer again cannot exchange cash for SP. Someone else does to make it available, but you literally cannot give cash and get SP. So to complete 1 transaction needs a out of game cash purchase for the sale to be completed. No, to complete 2 transactions that is needed. The purchase of an extractor is not one and the same as the sale of a packet. The former is needed for the latter, but doesn't itself necessitate the latter. Thus the buyer is completely abstracted from the AUR purchase. There is no way for them to exchange cash for SP. No i mean skillpoints for cash. If you could just whip 500k out of your skull into a hangar then sell it on the market for isk that would be pay2advance but nothing else.
For the sale of a TSP each one needs a purchase ( Extractor ) out of game to be able to be sold on.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:23:37 -
[5814] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: Without the wait time ( Time investment ) it just has an isk value.
If you know method to earn isk without time investments than let me know too. For a gobshite like you, go join your other buddies round jita scrounging. Thats more up your alley and requires no skills
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1734
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:30:04 -
[5815] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:No i mean skillpoints for cash. No, it isn't. I can't exchange cash for SP. I can only exchange cash for the ability to extract SP I already have. I can exchange isk for SP, provided someone who extracted it makes it available, but that they spent cash/AUR/PLEX/or even isk to someone who gave it to another player who introduced one of the prior items in exchange, doesn't mean a player, as a buyer, needs to interact with real money in any way shape or form.
Levi Belvar wrote:If you could just whip 500k out of your skull into a hangar then sell it on the market for isk that would be pay2advance but nothing else. No, that wouldn't be pay for anything unless you want to make the argument that everything in the in game market is "pay for 'x'". At that point we're getting ridiculous though.
Levi Belvar wrote:For the sale of a TSP each one needs a purchase ( Extractor ) out of game to be able to be sold on. And still the buyer is abstracted from that, they don't need to pay any real currency or AUR to consume SP. In truth they cannot do so. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:33:07 -
[5816] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:No i mean skillpoints for cash. No, it isn't. I can't exchange cash for SP. I can only exchange cash for the ability to extract SP I already have. I can exchange isk for SP, provided someone who extracted it makes it available, but that they spent cash/AUR/PLEX/or even isk to someone who gave it to another player who introduced one of the prior items in exchange, doesn't mean a player, as a buyer, needs to interact with real money in any way shape or form. Levi Belvar wrote:If you could just whip 500k out of your skull into a hangar then sell it on the market for isk that would be pay2advance but nothing else. No, that wouldn't be pay for anything unless you want to make the argument that everything in the in game market is "pay for 'x'". At that point we're getting ridiculous though. Levi Belvar wrote:For the sale of a TSP each one needs a purchase ( Extractor ) out of game to be able to be sold on. And still the buyer is abstracted from that, they don't need to pay any real currency or AUR to consume SP. In truth they cannot do so. You have to pay CCP a surcharge for the privilege of speed training is that more understandable to you.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
158
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:35:00 -
[5817] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: Without the wait time ( Time investment ) it just has an isk value.
If you know method to earn isk without time investments than let me know too. For a gobshite like you, go join your other buddies round jita scrounging. Thats more up your alley and requires no skills Hey are you just swiched terms "time" and "skills"? I asked not about skill but time investments. That is not cool, dude... not cool. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:39:17 -
[5818] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: Without the wait time ( Time investment ) it just has an isk value.
If you know method to earn isk without time investments than let me know too. For a gobshite like you, go join your other buddies round jita scrounging. Thats more up your alley and requires no skills Hey are you just swiched terms "time" and "skills"? I asked not about skill but time investments. That is not cool, dude... not cool. well with all the time you spend in stations spinning waiting for you skills to train you can still beg so still suites your playstyle of doing nothing to earn.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1734
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:41:05 -
[5819] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:You have to pay CCP a surcharge for the privilege of speed training is that more understandable to you. Maybe you should stop trying to characterize your series of falsehoods as others not understanding.
As an SP buyer there is no surcharge I can pay for buying SP in cash or AUR. In isk to cover what someone considers the "equivalent" cost? Sure, but that's the same as any and all such transactions in place (Bazaar, PLEX, special offer items and every NEX/NES item) and further that doesn't go to CCP, but the player assessing the charge. I still myself have no need to interact with the AUR or cash systems.
There is nothing even remotely hard to understand about that. |
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
39
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:45:50 -
[5820] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:You cannot create the TSP without the aurum puchase ergo the sale of the extractor filled which is the TSP has needed to be purchased out of game. Sure, by the seller, not the buyer. The buyer again cannot exchange cash for SP. Someone else does to make it available, but you literally cannot give cash and get SP.
No matter how often you twist it, its linked to RMT by design, so its an additional RMT to bypass a game mechanic = Advantage. It's turning an already expensive game, into a subscription / free to play hybrid...
(I bet it will lead to stuff like purchasable starter and premium packs, like frigate, cruiser, battleship packs with all the skills you need in them. Starter pack, 12.99 $ cheap, premium pack, only 20.99 $... "the power of three", buy three starter packs, you get one premium pack for free.... awesome game) |
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
158
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:46:48 -
[5821] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: well with all the time you spend in stations spinning waiting for you skills to train you can still beg so still suites your playstyle of doing nothing to earn.
Nope. You made same mistake.
My point is that isk require time to earn. Feel free to disprove it. So time is necessary thing even when you buying TSP. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:48:57 -
[5822] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:You have to pay CCP a surcharge for the privilege of speed training is that more understandable to you. Maybe you should stop trying to characterize your series of falsehoods as others not understanding. As an SP buyer there is no surcharge I can pay for buying SP in cash or AUR. In isk to cover what someone considers the "equivalent" cost? Sure, but that's the same as any and all such transactions in place (Bazaar, PLEX, special offer items and every NEX/NES item) and further that doesn't go to CCP, but the player assessing the charge. I still myself have no need to interact with the AUR or cash systems. There is nothing even remotely hard to understand about that. If they were available now to buy and you were the only person selling them. I wanted 10 off you but you say to me the skill points are fine but i can't buy anything out of game i dont have the resources for that .Can you complete my contract of 10 between you and me.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1736
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 23:00:24 -
[5823] - Quote
Vahligmarr wrote:No matter how often you twist it, its linked to RMT by design, so its an additional RMT to bypass a game mechanic = Advantage. It's turning an already expensive game, into a subscription / free to play hybrid...
(I bet it will lead to stuff like purchasable starter and premium packs, like frigate, cruiser, battleship packs with all the skills you need in them. Starter pack, 12.99 $ cheap, premium pack, only 20.99 $... "the power of three", buy three starter packs, you get one premium pack for free.... awesome game) The RMT-free boat has sailed. It's not coming back. It said long before the dual training certs, before NES/NEX, before AUR. PLEX effectively and completely killed this notion for the isk market long ago.
Meanwhile the SP market has been purely pay to advance since ghost training was killed off years ago. Yet here we are pretending we vets didn't front that cash all this time and only now is the trap of pay to advance springing, despite several of us choosing to remain subbed even when inactive to keep that precious SP flowing.
Funny thing is that the supply of sellable SP will still be constrained by that same mechanic, but selling the ability to trade it makes it suddenly a "bypass."
Also nice slippery slope, if any of that ever comes to pass (basically CCP actually selling SP as a prerequisite, since that isn't what's happening here) you may have a point. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1736
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 23:08:00 -
[5824] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:If they were available now to buy and you were the only person selling them. I wanted 10 off you but you say to me the skill points are fine but i can't buy anything out of game i dont have the resources for that .Can you complete my contract of 10 between you and me. 1st, why would you care about what means I'm expending?
2nd, There are already in game means to obtain AUR (granted through someone else' purchase)
3rd, Since making SP requires extractors, even if the were in game items I'd have to engage in some other transaction or gameplay to get them, so the whole thing is a moot point.
4th, Even if the above reasoning didn't hold, would you be giving me anything other than isk? If you did give me cash, would that be an EULA violation?
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 23:13:28 -
[5825] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:If they were available now to buy and you were the only person selling them. I wanted 10 off you but you say to me the skill points are fine but i can't buy anything out of game i dont have the resources for that .Can you complete my contract of 10 between you and me. 1st, why would you care about what means I'm expending? 2nd, There are already in game means to obtain AUR (granted through someone else' purchase) 3rd, Since making SP requires extractors, even if the were in game items I'd have to engage in some other transaction or gameplay to get them, so the whole thing is a moot point. 4th, Even if the above reasoning didn't hold, would you be giving me anything other than isk? If you did give me cash, would that be an EULA violation? You didnt answer the question, The contract was between you and me and i was not offering you cash, nothing available from anyone else you dont have the resources to buy out of game items. can you provide me the 10 TSP's All it requires is a simple yes or no.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
41
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 23:16:05 -
[5826] - Quote
Maybe its time to get the boat back to where it started... I would appreciate it if Plex, Bazaar, AUR and SPT would sail far far away... |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
158
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 23:17:11 -
[5827] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: You didnt answer the question, The contract was between you and me
There is nothing between you and me anymore! Please go out. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1738
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 23:19:49 -
[5828] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:You didnt answer the question, The contract was between you and me and i was not offering you cash, nothing available from anyone else you dont have the resources to buy out of game items. can you provide me the 10 TSP's All it requires is a simple yes or no. I demonstrated why it's not relevant to anything I've said or refuting the claim that this is "cash for SP". I don't have to go along with situational misdirection from you. It's actually best I don't as it dilutes the point:
And the point is that as stated you, the end user aren't paying anything but isk. You, the end user cannot give me cash for SP, you cannot give CCP cash for SP (via this proposal), and you cannot give me AUR for SP.
If you want to set up impossible hypotheticals which don't actually disprove much less address what I'm actually saying I'm not interested playing along. |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 23:20:28 -
[5829] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:If they were available now to buy and you were the only person selling them. I wanted 10 off you but you say to me the skill points are fine but i can't buy anything out of game i dont have the resources for that .Can you complete my contract of 10 between you and me. 1st, why would you care about what means I'm expending? 2nd, There are already in game means to obtain AUR (granted through someone else' purchase) 3rd, Since making SP requires extractors, even if the were in game items I'd have to engage in some other transaction or gameplay to get them, so the whole thing is a moot point. 4th, Even if the above reasoning didn't hold, would you be giving me anything other than isk? If you did give me cash, would that be an EULA violation? You didnt answer the question, The contract was between you and me and i was not offering you cash, nothing available from anyone else you dont have the resources to buy out of game items. can you provide me the 10 TSP's All it requires is a simple yes or no.
Oh I see, so it's Pay-to-Loose (your skil-lpoints)
|
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 23:21:17 -
[5830] - Quote
CCP you are a genius, you just invented pay to loose |
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 23:21:54 -
[5831] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:You didnt answer the question, The contract was between you and me and i was not offering you cash, nothing available from anyone else you dont have the resources to buy out of game items. can you provide me the 10 TSP's All it requires is a simple yes or no. I demonstrated why it's not relevant to anything I've said or refuting the claim that this is "cash for SP". I don't have to go along with situational misdirection from you. It's actually best I don't as it dilutes the point: And the point is that as stated you, the end user aren't paying anything but isk. You, the end user cannot give me cash for SP, you cannot give CCP cash for SP (via this proposal), and you cannot give me AUR for SP. B-O-M-B-E-D
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1738
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 23:22:34 -
[5832] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:CCP you are a genius, you just invented pay to loose This is probably the most accurate description presented thus far, oddly enough. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
158
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 23:24:49 -
[5833] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Rat Scout wrote:CCP you are a genius, you just invented pay to loose This is probably the most accurate description presented thus far, oddly enough. Some lessons must be paid. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1739
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 23:43:44 -
[5834] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:facetiousness aside, I was trying to make the point that with the bazaar you can earn the isk to plex the transfer of the toon, The TSP you have to spend cash for every single packet that's moved. You will never be able to fund its sale internally. If we're excluding the initial sale of PLEX as a cash venture, which I was not since that still originates from real money, then we can take the route of isk > PLEX > AUR > Extractor.
If I can buy PLEX in game and have in not be "cash for SP" when I pay the character transfer fee on the Bazaar , why can't I convert it to AUR and have it play by the same rules? |
Veraca Darmazaf
EVE University Ivy League
14
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 23:44:32 -
[5835] - Quote
If you look at SP as a currency then this is both an SP sink due to diminishing returns, and a way to redistribute wealth from the SP 'rich'.
Hmm, probably not the first time this idea has been mentioned in this monster thread. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 23:54:10 -
[5836] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:facetiousness aside, I was trying to make the point that with the bazaar you can earn the isk to plex the transfer of the toon, The TSP you have to spend cash for every single packet that's moved. You will never be able to fund its sale internally. If we're excluding the initial sale of PLEX as a cash venture, which I was not since that still originates from real money, then we can take the route of isk > PLEX > AUR > Extractor. If I can buy PLEX in game and have in not be "cash for SP" when I pay the character transfer fee on the Bazaar , why can't I convert it to AUR and have it play by the same rules? I wasnt saying you can't but that is the $64000 question How much are they going to be seeing as you can transfer 200 plus mill with 2 plex . If theyre not going to be some piddly ass amount like 50 aurum per unit then its all about cashing in on the player base again
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
158
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 00:23:24 -
[5837] - Quote
Another example "How to invent unsolvable problem and prove that new thing is bad "
Tau Phoenix wrote: What happens if a player tried to sell SP for a skill that they no longer use but th eskill is a pre-requestite for a skill they do use? Would CCP like to comment here? Would that char still be able to fly a T2 cruiser is the prerequisit SP werr sold/removed from th e char?
CCP Terminus secretly told me
CCP Terminus wrote: The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1740
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 00:24:37 -
[5838] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:I wasnt saying you can't but that is the $64000 question How much are they going to be seeing as you can transfer 200 plus mill with 2 plex . If theyre not going to be some piddly ass amount like 50 aurum per unit then its all about cashing in on the player base again Ok so this is where things get conceptually complicated:
I said that since the buyer doesn't spend cash/aur it's not "cash for SP." You countered with someone has to spend cash at some point. Then we get to this:
Levi Belvar wrote:with the bazaar you can earn the isk to plex the transfer of the toon, The TSP you have to spend cash for every single packet that's moved. So it's a strange issue now. With AUR you for some reason said it's explicitly cash, but PLEX isn't, despite PLEX being a source of AUR. Further when this is pointed out, we now divert to the issue being the specific pricepoint.
That feels like moving goalposts on top of possibly either ignoring or not knowing PLEX > AUR was a thing. I'm not sure the contention you have or objection to what I'm saying at this point either.
And extremes of character transfers aside most transferred characters are under 50mill SP as stated earlier in this thread by CCP. 50 AUR/Extractor is 70 TSPs/PLEX, 140 TSPs/Bazaar transfer fee, or 70,000,000 transferable for the same amount.
If I did the math right anyways. Also I'm not sure it needs argued that every case of Bazaar transfers need to be cheaper in TSP form. Especially with the diminishing returns. |
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
6463
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 01:27:08 -
[5839] - Quote
Removed some off topic posts. Please keep it civil and on topic. Thank you.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Raffael Ramirez
Alcohol Fuelled
70
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 01:51:38 -
[5840] - Quote
I am worried about this game, I believe there is a lot to do for CCP without doing what they try to do here.
A lot of areas of the current game need work, if you spend some time online and maybe read some sections of the forums every now and then you realize that a lot of things are broken (again).
Null sec, Cap ships, Battleships Incursions Roleplaying Risk vs Reward being AFK is a play style etc.
I am sure everybody can agree with at least one thing that is broken/need fixing and the list goes on. But what is proposed is a fundamental change of game mechanics, that to be perfectly honest don't need fixing. If you want a char with more SK/P you can buy it - nothing wrong with it so there is a way it is even legal - why do it?
I remember when buying characters was illegal and got you permabanned - now it is a legal thing because CCP couldn't stop it in a meaningful way - same with PLEX and RMTs. Instead of punishing and enforcing the rules they make them legal - it's easier I suppose. But it sets an example on how illegal things will be dealt with - they will become a feature.
I see a deterioration of the game and the community that is sad to see, I know 'my eve' vanished long ago with the introduction of AUR and PLEX and I will never get it back. I feel like all these mechanics cheapen the game experience. EVE was unique in more ways than I can list but it becomes just another item collection, pay to compete kind of game. I ask the question here for anyone who cares to answer: What happened to you vision of EVE?
Cold, dark, harsh, competitive, long term investment, hobby, science fiction, real living breathing world, actions have consequences - these are the words that described the gaming experience - I cannot see any relation to the direction this company/game is going.
Maybe gamers left because of changes/mistakes made in the past which set EVE on the course it is now, maybe the vision of EVE changed, maybe CCP needs to do this to survive as a company. I have no idea, but I want to express my disappointment and worry about what EVE might become in the future.
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 16:14:04 -
[5841] - Quote
Raffael Ramirez wrote: But what is proposed is a fundamental change of game mechanics, that to be perfectly honest don't need fixing.
Maybe you think that way because you already have SP as much as you want?
Quote:Date of Birth: 2003-10-13
Raffael Ramirez wrote:If you want a char with more SK/P you can buy it - nothing wrong with it so there is a way it is even legal - why do it? Yea, but SP trading will allow me to keep indentity and spend isk in more gradual way.
Raffael Ramirez wrote:Maybe gamers left because of changes/mistakes made in the past which set EVE on the course it is now, maybe the vision of EVE changed, maybe CCP needs to do this to survive as a company. Or maybe old players will quit no matter what because of insurmountable circumstances of life and current flow of new players is not enough to cover the loss. Changes like this required to increase the flow. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3084
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 16:21:17 -
[5842] - Quote
This is a pointless thread.
CCP need the money, end of discussion.
All that remains is to see how CCP will implement it.
This is not a signature.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 19:12:15 -
[5843] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote: All that remains is to see how CCP will implement it.
CCP we all waiting of announcement
|
SS Donaldson
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 19:17:47 -
[5844] - Quote
I am shocked by all the negative responses, and everyone's skewed perception on what pay to win would actually look like in this game. I think this idea is brilliant idea! I have an alt with 20m SP that i don't use anymore who I've kept around waiting for a moment just like this! CCP is offering us a way to consolidate SP among all of the 10 characters you people have spread across 5 accounts. It offers a way to "respec" your character if you will. If you started off as a miner or industrialist and decided to go straight combat you know hove a way to shift those un used SP to a more practical area of your characters development. Or if your 5 days away from -blank- Battleship 5, to get a slight boost so you dont have to wait as long.
As for Pay to Win. this game is based on what **** your flying and what your fit is, not how many skill points you have. If they started selling aurum only ships and modules at like, meta lvl 24 with special ammunition only available in the New Edan Store. THAT would be pay to win, and that i would not be able to stand by.
I hope this feature does make its way into the game, I am excited for it!
Doesn't matter how rich or smart a person holding scissors is, rock still wins |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
35
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 20:18:08 -
[5845] - Quote
SS Donaldson wrote:I am shocked by all the negative responses, and everyone's skewed perception on what pay to win would actually look like in this game. I think this idea is brilliant idea! I have an alt with 20m SP that i don't use anymore who I've kept around waiting for a moment just like this! CCP is offering us a way to consolidate SP among all of the 10 characters you people have spread across 5 accounts. It offers a way to "respec" your character if you will. If you started off as a miner or industrialist and decided to go straight combat you know hove a way to shift those un used SP to a more practical area of your characters development. Or if your 5 days away from -blank- Battleship 5, to get a slight boost so you dont have to wait as long.
As for Pay to Win. this game is based on what **** your flying and what your fit is, not how many skill points you have. If they started selling aurum only ships and modules at like, meta lvl 24 with special ammunition only available in the New Edan Store. THAT would be pay to win, and that i would not be able to stand by.
I hope this feature does make its way into the game, I am excited for it!
Doesn't matter how rich or smart a person holding scissors is, rock still wins
""It's a game based on the **** your flying""
Take that 20million SP alt: Get out a Credit Card and spend some $$ - Then buy the Skill Points that at present can only gain through time investment.
I have a Gold Credit Card & can afford to pay for my character to be able to fly a Carrier - You only have a Blue Credit Card & can only afford the SP to get your pilot into a Cruiser -
I'm rich and bought a ROCK - good luck with only being able to afford the Scissors
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 20:48:27 -
[5846] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote: I have a Gold Credit Card & can afford to pay for my character to be able to fly a Carrier - You only have a Blue Credit Card & can only afford the SP to get your pilot into a Cruiser -
I'm rich and bought a ROCK - good luck with only being able to afford the Scissors
Do you hunt Cruisers with Carrier or what? Even Gold Credit Card can't buy an expirence and knowledge of the game for you.
Iowa Banshee wrote: Take that 20million SP alt: Get out a Credit Card and spend some $$ - Then buy the Skill Points that at present can only gain through time investment.
Or get out a Credit Card right now and go to the bazaar. Furthermore Skill Points must be trained before exrtacting so even TSP require time investments. |
N00B-SAIB0T
MK Financial
23
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 20:53:34 -
[5847] - Quote
SS Donaldson wrote:I am shocked by all the negative responses, and everyone's skewed perception on what pay to win would actually look like in this game. I think this idea is brilliant idea! I have an alt with 20m SP that i don't use anymore who I've kept around waiting for a moment just like this! CCP is offering us a way to consolidate SP among all of the 10 characters you people have spread across 5 accounts. It offers a way to "respec" your character if you will. If you started off as a miner or industrialist and decided to go straight combat you know hove a way to shift those un used SP to a more practical area of your characters development. Or if your 5 days away from -blank- Battleship 5, to get a slight boost so you dont have to wait as long.
As for Pay to Win. this game is based on what **** your flying and what your fit is, not how many skill points you have. If they started selling aurum only ships and modules at like, meta lvl 24 with special ammunition only available in the New Edan Store. THAT would be pay to win, and that i would not be able to stand by.
I hope this feature does make its way into the game, I am excited for it!
Doesn't matter how rich or smart a person holding scissors is, rock still wins
Yup in the same boat. I have a 41 million SP character that is all over the place in terms of skills, from a time when I was new and experimenting with all kinds of activities. I had accepted to just let it go for a cheap price on the bazaar but luckily this announcement came in time.
So many ideas on what to do with it now. Probably will harvest its skill points to zero and then biomass it.
|
Veraca Darmazaf
EVE University Ivy League
17
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 21:04:44 -
[5848] - Quote
N00B-SAIB0T wrote:Yup in the same boat. I have a 41 million SP character that is all over the place in terms of skills, from a time when I was new and experimenting with all kinds of activities. I had accepted to just let it go for a cheap price on the bazaar but luckily this announcement came in time.
So many ideas on what to do with it now. Probably will harvest its skill points to zero and then biomass it.
Dev Blog wrote:Characters with less than 5 million skillpoints may not use Skill Extractors, they can still use Skill Packets
Not to zero, which may or may not affect your decision. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
36
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 21:18:07 -
[5849] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: I have a Gold Credit Card & can afford to pay for my character to be able to fly a Carrier - You only have a Blue Credit Card & can only afford the SP to get your pilot into a Cruiser -
I'm rich and bought a ROCK - good luck with only being able to afford the Scissors
Do you hunt Cruisers with Carrier or what? Even Gold Credit Card can't buy expirence and knowledge of the game for you. Iowa Banshee wrote: Take that 20million SP alt: Get out a Credit Card and spend some $$ - Then buy the Skill Points that at present can only gain through time investment.
Or get out a Credit Card right now and go to the bazaar. Furthermore Skill Points must be trained before exrtacting so even TSP require time investments.
Hunt Cruiser with a carrier - Yeah... Right ... Well I guess you deliberately missed the point, It doesn't matter what kind of ROCK I buy with my imaginary Gold Card - Market Skills, Building Skills, Ships Skills or Whatever Skills - The point is the person with the deepest pockets gets an in-game advantage
Buying a WHOLE CHARACTER at The Bazaar to replace one of my alts is NOT the same as buying the golden bullet Skill Point training ammo to ADD points over and above the ones you could add through normal subscription.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1740
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 21:27:03 -
[5850] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Hunt Cruiser with a carrier - Yeah... Right ... Well I guess you deliberately missed the point, It doesn't matter what kind of ROCK I buy with my imaginary Gold Card - Market Skills, Building Skills, Ships Skills or Whatever Skills - The point is the person with the deepest pockets gets an in-game advantage
Buying a WHOLE CHARACTER at The Bazaar to replace one of my alts is NOT the same as buying the golden bullet Skill Point training ammo to ADD points over and above the ones you could add through normal subscription. Why do either of the need a credit card at all? Maybe they should just learn to make isk. Problem solved. A few days training leaves you more than adequately set up for some basic market trading.
The person who knows the game gets the same advantage as someone with a CC and gets to keep their money. More than that they get to reap the rewards of the game time bought with the CC and get those same privileges. |
|
Veraca Darmazaf
EVE University Ivy League
17
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 21:31:05 -
[5851] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote: Hunt Cruiser with a carrier - Yeah... Right ... Well I guess you deliberately missed the point, It doesn't matter what kind of ROCK I buy with my imaginary Gold Card - Market Skills, Building Skills, Ships Skills or Whatever Skills - The point is the person with the deepest pockets gets an in-game advantage
Buying a WHOLE CHARACTER at The Bazaar to replace one of my alts is NOT the same as buying the golden bullet Skill Point training ammo to ADD points over and above the ones you could add through normal subscription.
By that logic currently the person who has spent the most time subscribed has an in-game advantage, and this is beyond the advantage they hopefully have in experience playing the game. I don't find that to be a better situation, and it definitely turns off some potential new players.
Do I think the proposed system is the ideal fix? No. Personally I'd like something closer to tossing the skill point system entirely, but I can't see that happening. Unfortunately I have no better ideas that CCP would likely go for, as they wouldn't add to their revenue the way this does. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 21:55:46 -
[5852] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote: The point is the person with the deepest pockets gets an in-game advantage
Now your point is a litle bit clearer but I still don't get it. How anyone might care about "SP advantage"? There is a lot of people who already have that advantage over you and you can't do anything about exept buying a new toon. Does it bother you? Or you bother about "person with the deepest pockets" who at the same time your personal enemy?
Iowa Banshee wrote: Buying a WHOLE CHARACTER at The Bazaar to replace one of my alts is NOT the same as buying the golden bullet Skill Point training ammo to ADD points over and above the ones you could add through normal subscription.
"Person with the deepest pockets" don't care about alts, source of SP, ect. He could just buy toon from bazaar right now if he want to have "advantage " over you personally. |
N00B-SAIB0T
MK Financial
23
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 21:56:13 -
[5853] - Quote
Veraca Darmazaf wrote:N00B-SAIB0T wrote:Yup in the same boat. I have a 41 million SP character that is all over the place in terms of skills, from a time when I was new and experimenting with all kinds of activities. I had accepted to just let it go for a cheap price on the bazaar but luckily this announcement came in time.
So many ideas on what to do with it now. Probably will harvest its skill points to zero and then biomass it.
Dev Blog wrote:Characters with less than 5 million skillpoints may not use Skill Extractors, they can still use Skill Packets
Not to zero, which may or may not affect your decision.
Yea, forgot that bit. Most likely will focus it down to a specific role at around 5 million skill points, then sell it off for a few billion.
At any rate, it's a better way of parting from 41 million skill point character. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
36
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 22:00:28 -
[5854] - Quote
Veraca Darmazaf wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: Hunt Cruiser with a carrier - Yeah... Right ... Well I guess you deliberately missed the point, It doesn't matter what kind of ROCK I buy with my imaginary Gold Card - Market Skills, Building Skills, Ships Skills or Whatever Skills - The point is the person with the deepest pockets gets an in-game advantage
Buying a WHOLE CHARACTER at The Bazaar to replace one of my alts is NOT the same as buying the golden bullet Skill Point training ammo to ADD points over and above the ones you could add through normal subscription.
By that logic currently the person who has spent the most time subscribed has an in-game advantage, and this is beyond the advantage they hopefully have in experience playing the game. I don't find that to be a better situation, and it definitely turns off some potential new players. Do I think the proposed system is the ideal fix? No. Personally I'd like something closer to tossing the skill point system entirely, but I can't see that happening. Unfortunately I have no better ideas that CCP would likely go for, as they wouldn't add to their revenue the way this does.
Some people are against re-mapping skill points on a character - I'm not one of them
Would you pay $15 or 1.2bill ISK for a PLEX to buy a remap skill points tool for a character ?
Would you pay $30 or 2.2bill ISK to free up an alt slot (once sold) by packaging a toon for sale on the market ?
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
36
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 22:29:22 -
[5855] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: The point is the person with the deepest pockets gets an in-game advantage
Now your point is a litle bit clearer but I still don't get it. How anyone might care about "SP advantage"? There is a lot of people who already have that advantage over you and you can't do anything about exept buying a new toon. Does it bother you? Or you bother about "person with the deepest pockets" who at the same time your personal enemy? Iowa Banshee wrote: Buying a WHOLE CHARACTER at The Bazaar to replace one of my alts is NOT the same as buying the golden bullet Skill Point training ammo to ADD points over and above the ones you could add through normal subscription.
"Person with the deepest pockets" don't care about alts, source of SP, ect. He could just buy toon from bazaar right now if he want to have "advantage " over you personally.
When it comes to Skill Points: At present there is a limit on the amount of RL cash (or PLEX which is RL cash by proxy) that can be spent on a single account.
*I pay my subs $12 *I buy 2 dual training certificates (a form of P2W)
I could pay 2 PLEX or $30 to replace one of my alts - BUT - it is just a replacement & SP gain remains constrained by the subscription/dual training mechanic.
This is a subscription based game and the value of that subscription 'IS' the number of Skill points my character has trained and is presently training.
Because:- EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME CAN BE BOUGHT (market availability withstanding)
If you take away this constraint the game becomes pure PAY to WIN |
Rhalina Sedai
Notice Has Been Served
28
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 22:49:24 -
[5856] - Quote
That's awesome news hope it happens. Roll a new toon join an enemies corp as newbie. Spend six month working your way up, rob em blind leave corp give CCP a bit of dosh and send all the skill points to your unidentified main character. Possibilities are endless, now all we need is concord out of high sec and we're good to go.
FSOP (Free Systems of Panorad)
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 23:01:32 -
[5857] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote: This is a subscription based game and the value of that subscription 'IS' the number of Skill points my character has trained and is presently training.
Because:- EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME CAN BE BOUGHT
So bazaar where you can buy character with SP doesn't exist? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1741
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 23:06:49 -
[5858] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:When it comes to Skill Points: At present there is a limit on the amount of RL cash (or PLEX which is RL cash by proxy) that can be spent on a single account.
*I pay my subs $12 *I buy 2 dual training certificates (a form of P2W)
I could pay 2 PLEX or $30 to replace one of my alts - BUT - it is just a replacement & SP gain remains constrained by the subscription/dual training mechanic.
This is a subscription based game and the value of that subscription 'IS' the number of Skill points my character has trained and is presently training.
Because:- EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME CAN BE BOUGHT (market availability withstanding)
If you take away this constraint the game becomes pure PAY to WIN No, the value of a sub is not the SP of the characters on it, else new players would pay a fraction of the sub cost that vets have and/or characters themselves would be nontransferable. A sub is simple access, not a guarantee of SP accumulation (try letting your queue lapse or losing a T3 cruiser and see what happens).
Further this pretty much throws the fundamental elements of in game trade out of the window by declaring the market P2W in entirety.
At which point it needs to be asked, if the existence of a means to create account level commodities, via real money with in game value, negates the value of the market for a player, is that player anything short of crazy for continuing to play the game? If the goal here is to stick to SP as the last bastion of defense against this definition of P2W, then the only acceptable gameplay was skill queue online to begin with barring inconsistent application of principle. And if those players only stick to it when convenient, why should the rest of us be beholden to those definitions? |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 00:18:42 -
[5859] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote: Would you pay $15 or 1.2bill ISK for a PLEX to buy a remap skill points tool for a character ?
Would you pay $30 or 2.2bill ISK to free up an alt slot (once sold) by packaging a toon for sale on the market ?
No and no because it won't help me( noob with low SP) as much as SP trading. |
Raffael Ramirez
Alcohol Fuelled
76
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 01:05:19 -
[5860] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Raffael Ramirez wrote: But what is proposed is a fundamental change of game mechanics, that to be perfectly honest don't need fixing.
Maybe you think that way because you already have SP as much as you want? Quote:Date of Birth: 2003-10-13 Raffael Ramirez wrote:If you want a char with more SK/P you can buy it - nothing wrong with it so there is a way it is even legal - why do it? Yea, but SP trading will allow me to keep indentity and spend isk in more gradual way. Raffael Ramirez wrote:Maybe gamers left because of changes/mistakes made in the past which set EVE on the course it is now, maybe the vision of EVE changed, maybe CCP needs to do this to survive as a company. Or maybe old players will quit no matter what because of insurmountable circumstances of life and current flow of new players is not enough to cover the loss. Changes like this required to increase the flow.
I feel sorry for you bro, you completely missed the point and that is probably another symptom of what I have described.
I deleted the rest of my answer since I have no intention to start another endless mudslinging contest. I came here to voice my concern, as a customer that is my only right.
|
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
36
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 01:09:31 -
[5861] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee, I would appreciate if you will answer on my previous questions. Iowa Banshee wrote:I pay my subs $12 Does it make you "P2W" because some players buying plexes with isk? They are spend their time playing to earn isk and then they activate that plex to train skills. When you just paying.
All Plex in game are the result of people purchasing them. They are not put on the market by CCP
Someone has to buy them & if you are using a Plex to sub an account you are just converting ISK back into a PLEX before consuming it.
If you are Plexing an account you are just better at earning isk than the person that bought the plex in the first place.
An account cannot consume less than 1 to continuing gaining SP and cannot consume more than 3 per account for SP gain
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
36
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 01:14:46 -
[5862] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: Would you pay $15 or 1.2bill ISK for a PLEX to buy a remap skill points tool for a character ?
Would you pay $30 or 2.2bill ISK to free up an alt slot (once sold) by packaging a toon for sale on the market ?
No and no because it won't help me(noob with low SP and not many isk) as much as SP trading.
But ... you have repeated again and again that you can always buy a toon at the bazaar -
Oh my bad on re-reading I see that you have Low SP & Little ISK and want to be able to Pay to Win with real life money
Well no wonder you like this idea |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
36
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 01:27:09 -
[5863] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:When it comes to Skill Points: At present there is a limit on the amount of RL cash (or PLEX which is RL cash by proxy) that can be spent on a single account.
*I pay my subs $12 *I buy 2 dual training certificates (a form of P2W)
I could pay 2 PLEX or $30 to replace one of my alts - BUT - it is just a replacement & SP gain remains constrained by the subscription/dual training mechanic.
This is a subscription based game and the value of that subscription 'IS' the number of Skill points my character has trained and is presently training.
Because:- EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME CAN BE BOUGHT (market availability withstanding)
If you take away this constraint the game becomes pure PAY to WIN No, the value of a sub is not the SP of the characters on it, else new players would pay a fraction of the sub cost that vets have and/or characters themselves would be nontransferable. A sub is simple access, not a guarantee of SP accumulation (try letting your queue lapse or losing a T3 cruiser and see what happens). Further this pretty much throws the fundamental elements of in game trade out of the window by declaring the market P2W in entirety. At which point it needs to be asked, if the existence of a means to create account level commodities, via real money with in game value, negates the value of the market for a player, is that player anything short of crazy for continuing to play the game? If the goal here is to stick to SP as the last bastion of defense against this definition of P2W, then the only acceptable gameplay was skill queue online to begin with barring inconsistent application of principle. And if those players only stick to it when convenient, why should the rest of us be beholden to those definitions?
"A sub is simple access and characters have no value"
Utter rubbish .... -and the character bazaar does not exist to sell these worthless toons
Or is the time invested in them of value
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 01:33:13 -
[5864] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote: All Plex in game are the result of people purchasing them. They are not put on the market by CCP
Someone has to buy them & if you are using a Plex to sub an account you are just converting ISK back into a PLEX before consuming it.
I knew it and becuse of that I don't mind when someone selling extra PLEX on the market with intention to get "advantage" with RL money. It's a deal like with TSP.
Iowa Banshee wrote: If you are Plexing an account you are just better at earning isk than the person that bought the plex in the first place.
So I will be better at gaining SP unless you will pay more to outcompete me. And I perfectly fine with that thought.
Iowa Banshee wrote: An account cannot consume less than 1 to continuing gaining SP and cannot consume more than 3 per account for SP gain
It doesn't mean that person can't buy toon from bazaar. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1741
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 01:43:10 -
[5865] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:"A sub is simple access and characters have no value"
Utter rubbish .... -and the character bazaar does not exist to sell these worthless toons
Or is the time invested in them of value Who said characters have no value? I only said that the sub value is not the same. So yeah, it is utter rubbish, but it originated from you, not me. |
SS Donaldson
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 04:12:44 -
[5866] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:SS Donaldson wrote:I am shocked by all the negative responses, and everyone's skewed perception on what pay to win would actually look like in this game. I think this idea is brilliant idea! I have an alt with 20m SP that i don't use anymore who I've kept around waiting for a moment just like this! CCP is offering us a way to consolidate SP among all of the 10 characters you people have spread across 5 accounts. It offers a way to "respec" your character if you will. If you started off as a miner or industrialist and decided to go straight combat you know hove a way to shift those un used SP to a more practical area of your characters development. Or if your 5 days away from -blank- Battleship 5, to get a slight boost so you dont have to wait as long.
As for Pay to Win. this game is based on what **** your flying and what your fit is, not how many skill points you have. If they started selling aurum only ships and modules at like, meta lvl 24 with special ammunition only available in the New Edan Store. THAT would be pay to win, and that i would not be able to stand by.
I hope this feature does make its way into the game, I am excited for it!
Doesn't matter how rich or smart a person holding scissors is, rock still wins ""It's a game based on the **** your flying"" Take that 20million SP alt: Get out a Credit Card and spend some $$ - Then buy the Skill Points that at present can only gain through time investment. I have a Gold Credit Card & can afford to pay for my character to be able to fly a Carrier - You only have a Blue Credit Card & can only afford the SP to get your pilot into a Cruiser - I'm rich and bought a ROCK - good luck with only being able to afford the Scissors
Theres always a counter. even to your massive carrier, ****** paper will still beat your gold plated rock |
Tau Phoenix
Eternal Darkness. Blades of Grass
58
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 19:43:05 -
[5867] - Quote
SS Donaldson wrote:.................. I think this idea is brilliant idea! I have an alt with 20m SP that i don't use anymore who I've kept around waiting for a moment just like this! CCP is offering us a way to consolidate SP among all of the 10 characters you people have spread across 5 accounts. It offers a way to "respec" your character if you will. If you started off as a miner or industrialist and decided to go straight combat you know hove a way to shift those un used SP to a more practical area of your characters development. Or if your 5 days away from -blank- Battleship 5, to get a slight boost so you dont have to wait as long.
As for Pay to Win. this game is based on what **** your flying and what your fit is, not how many skill points you have.
So, on Monday you consolidate all you SP into one char so you can fly a super, Tuesday consolidate it all so you can go fly a BLOPS BS at Lvl 5, Wednesday we can be a market tycoon........yep, this will be healthy for the game.
As i said in an earlier post, you made your training decisions they should be permenant, thats life. Next you will be saying 'Oh, i studdied the wrong course at university.......can i exchange my diploma for another subject if i just pay the admin fees?'
And as for the comment of 'this game is based on what **** your flying and what your fit is, not how many skill points you have'...you must be the sort of person who think they can fly a carrier because you can sit in it. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 20:01:42 -
[5868] - Quote
I think with the distinct lack of communication back from anyone it was more of a PR exercise than seeking feedback. Does bring up a few questions though. The player base is slowly but surely shrinking and there is a lot of negativity towards this, then after the initial furor of TSP's has come and gone what happens if a lot like me ( 8 accounts with quite a few characters ) have no intention of parting with any what so ever. If they dry up or become as rare as rocking horse crap where is there new revenue stream gone ?
Will they then start to float some on the market, say its not worked and go to selling them directly anyway. For this to work they've got to have a lot willing to part with them in the first place and seeing as the vet's are in the best position on this they screw them over and give them the least return on a personalization stand point.
For a game that's been true to it's value's and had a loyal base of player's, Its those now who are being looked on to shed there investment, even at a loss and not even be given the chance to be afforded the same benefit as a sub 50 million player, Looking at it that way it may force the farming aspect more and its still bought another RMT into the game. So with all that going on and the prioritizing of a more monetary induced playstyle where has the prestige gone. There's certainly nothing unique about a game thats following in the foot steps of countless other hasbeen's
Would be fun if the people that did object to them being introduced refused to use them, If just to see what price levels they hit if they started to dry up
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 20:22:20 -
[5869] - Quote
Tau Phoenix wrote: As i said in an earlier post, you've made your training decisions they should be permenant, thats life. Next you will be saying 'Oh, i studdied the wrong course at university.......can i exchange my diploma for another subject if i just pay the admin fees?' Answer: No, go study another subject and earn it.
Power of analogy come to me! It's Sci-fi game, bro. There is all kind of thing which messing up with your brain. Maybe in the future any piece of knolowege would be looks like toster that could be traded.
Tau Phoenix wrote:...you must be the sort of person who thinks they can fly a carrier because you can sit in it. You must be the sort of person who building unpleasant theories about others. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1743
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 21:24:20 -
[5870] - Quote
Tau Phoenix wrote:So, on Monday you consolidate all you SP into one char so you can fly a super, Tuesday consolidate it all so you can go fly a BLOPS BS at Lvl 5, Wednesday we can be a market tycoon........yep, this will be healthy for the game. As i said in an earlier post, you've made your training decisions they should be permenant, thats life. Next you will be saying 'Oh, i studdied the wrong course at university.......can i exchange my diploma for another subject if i just pay the admin fees?' Answer: No, go study another subject and earn it. And as for your comment of ' .......this game is based on what **** your flying and what your fit is, not how many skill points you have'...you must be the sort of person who thinks they can fly a carrier because you can sit in it. On Monday, he would have consumed 100mill SP for that super, probably much more if he wanted to do anything with it. Tuesday? Another 20 mill if the only think he lacked was the Black-ops skill, more if he needed anything else. Wednesday, depending on your definition of market tycoon, up to a few tens of millions more SP.
So who are these people willing to sacrifice hundreds on millions of SP in capable characters for tens of millions in return? When you can only do it once every 5 years of maintaining a sub, how could it possibly be a widespread or often repeated practice?
I have a collective ~460mill SP, but there's no rearrangement that makes anywhere near good sense. I could put it all in a new toon to keep efficiency up to 5 mill, take a (personally unacceptable) loss of 20% to 50mill, then tank it from there, and for what? People that have these characters already have caps/supers/T2/T3 or are relatively short trains from it. I'm willing to bet none of them, having taken years to create their characters, are going to eagerly strip them down for under a day of training per week invested. |
|
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 22:34:39 -
[5871] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:General Lootit wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote: The point is the person with the deepest pockets gets an in-game advantage
Now your point is a litle bit clearer but I still don't get it. How anyone might care about "SP advantage"? There is a lot of people who already have that advantage over you and you can't do anything about exept buying a new toon. Does it bother you? Or you bother about "person with the deepest pockets" who at the same time your personal enemy? Iowa Banshee wrote: Buying a WHOLE CHARACTER at The Bazaar to replace one of my alts is NOT the same as buying the golden bullet Skill Point training ammo to ADD points over and above the ones you could add through normal subscription.
"Person with the deepest pockets" don't care about alts, source of SP, ect. He could just buy toon from bazaar right now if he want to have "advantage " over you personally. When it comes to Skill Points: At present there is a limit on the amount of RL cash (or PLEX which is RL cash by proxy) that can be spent on a single account. *I pay my subs $12 *I buy 2 dual training certificates (a form of P2W) I could pay 2 PLEX or $30 to replace one of my alts - BUT - it is just a replacement & SP gain remains constrained by the subscription/dual training mechanic. This is a subscription based game and the value of that subscription 'IS' the number of Skill points my character has trained and is presently training. Because:- EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME CAN BE BOUGHT (market availability withstanding) If you take away this constraint the game becomes pure PAY to WIN
"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "
CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05
|
A Ingus
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
69
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 22:52:08 -
[5872] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: I think with the distinct lack of communication back from anyone it was more of a PR exercise than seeking feedback. Does bring up a few questions though. The player base is slowly but surely shrinking and there is a lot of negativity towards this, then after the initial furor of TSP's has come and gone what happens if a lot like me ( 8 accounts with quite a few characters ) have no intention of parting with any what so ever. If they dry up or become as rare as rocking horse crap where is there new revenue stream gone ? Will they then start to float some on the market, say its not worked and go to selling them directly anyway. For this to work they've got to have a lot willing to part with them in the first place and seeing as the vet's are in the best position on this they screw them over and give them the least return on a personalization stand point. For a game that's been true to it's value's and had a loyal base of player's, Its those now who are being looked on to shed there investment, even at a loss and not even be given the chance to be afforded the same benefit as a sub 50 million player, Looking at it that way it may force the farming aspect more and its still bought another RMT into the game. So with all that going on and the prioritizing of a more monetary induced playstyle where has the prestige gone. There's certainly nothing unique about a game thats following in the foot steps of countless other hasbeen's Would be fun if the people that did object to them being introduced refused to use them, If just to see what price levels they hit if they started to dry up Pretty much my feeling on the matter. The decision has already been made. And, just look at this thread. There will be a few buyers. Not as many as CCP hopes I would guess. And it wont benefit new players more than established players looking to shift sp from one alt to another. In fact it might turn off new players that don't appreciate sinking money into their characters after already paying a sub.
Just another camel nose with the humps soon to follow. The subscription model will die along with the time based skill system. For a while the changes have smacked of desperate fotm chasing attempts to avoid the effects of shrinking numbers of players. This is entirely the wrong thing. They should stand proud of the uniqueness, slim down, and wait for the world to turn. But they wont.
I used to have 4 accounts. But after December there will be none. Nobody will get my stuff. It will slowly fade away waiting for the game to die. Which looks to be, soon. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 22:53:27 -
[5873] - Quote
Suede wrote: "The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "
CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05
Would be unfair if CCP directly selling SP but they won't Any who want to buy SP must make a deal with another player who finds that deal fair. If you don't think this is a fair deal than don't sell SP but it doesn't mean that others thinks as you do. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1743
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 23:21:55 -
[5874] - Quote
A Ingus wrote:Pretty much my feeling on the matter. The decision has already been made. And, just look at this thread. There will be a few buyers. Not as many as CCP hopes I would guess. And it wont benefit new players more than established players looking to shift sp from one alt to another. In fact it might turn off new players that don't appreciate sinking money into their characters after already paying a sub. Just another camel nose with the humps soon to follow. The subscription model will die along with the time based skill system. For a while the changes have smacked of desperate fotm chasing attempts to avoid the effects of shrinking numbers of players. This is entirely the wrong thing. They should stand proud of the uniqueness, slim down, and wait for the world to turn. But they wont. I used to have 4 accounts. But after December there will be none. Nobody will get my stuff. It will slowly fade away waiting for the game to die. Which looks to be, soon. The more I read some of the posts against this, the more I wonder if I'm alone in thinking trading a few years of training for a few months is a bad idea. Surely I can't be the only one who thinks the vets in this game, looking at a 20%-90% loss, won't exactly be willing to sacrifice the convenience on multiple capable characters for a fraction of the return.
That's before even looking at any additional cost, but then the lack of benefit means there will be no such cost.
Then again, maybe I am the only one who sees it like this.
The funny thing is that this whole thing seems to have gone out of it's way to avoid direct sale of SP or anything related to it (moreso even than dual training certs), but we're still saying it's an inevitability alongside the death of the sub model. That's odd to me though, why would you set up players as the source if you actually wanted to do it yourself? Why dilute the real money revenue from it with in game isk while at the same time making every SP in the game a competing source of your product?
Further, why would you ever think about getting rid of the skill system since it's a strong driver for revenue with progress, and possibly soon in game isk, tied to it? It doesn't make sense for a profit seeking entity.
Then again that could just be my perspective. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 01:50:44 -
[5875] - Quote
A Ingus wrote: I used to have 4 accounts. But after December there will be none. Nobody will get my stuff. It will slowly fade away
Actually it's quite decent idea. SP need to be a thing which could be forgotten at rate X sp/h if you didn't log in to the game for a couple of days. Maybe then some vets will realise how to be a low SP player or how to be loyal. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
258
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 08:22:16 -
[5876] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:A Ingus wrote: I used to have 4 accounts. But after December there will be none. Nobody will get my stuff. It will slowly fade away
Actually it's quite decent idea. SP need to be a thing which could be forgotten at rate X sp/h if you didn't log in to the game for a couple of days. Maybe then some vets will realise how to be a low SP player or how to be loyal one. You really have a strange view General Lootit, Some vets may have started out with a few more skill points than you, others alot less. There was the training of learning skills that was mandatory back then and there advanced versions, there was far less todo initially, nowhere near the ships you have today. Trying to mission and PVP whilst the server was up and down like a pro's draws. As the game stands today its fairly polished, downtime is about 10 minutes patches don't take much more than an hour or two, players used to dread patches, you never knew when it was going to come back up.
Loyalty was sticking with a game that was like you were playing a beta for the first 4 or 5 years it was running and still with it today, spending the first 8 weeks juggling a few skills in between training learning skills up, Not whining that your a lowly new guy who cant fly a cap within a month so give me skill points.
I agree with anyone that says the attribs are bogus, remove them so all skills can be trained without the need for months of planned training cues, Hell even speed everything up 20% to 30%. but if you have nothing to aim for, learning by advancing to the next class what will keep you playing for any length of time.
We all started out the new guys we all know whats its like and most had it a lot worse than what you have today.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Imana Juok
White Flag Waving Frenchies
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 09:29:05 -
[5877] - Quote
I'm just going to quit eve if CCP allows players to buy skill points. Idk why i spent so many years training if someone can shortcut his way to the same SP. Players spent crazy amounts of isk on implants trying to max out their SP training over the years so new guys can just flat out buy their skill points??? I know we have to do something to ease the pain of new players but this will drive away old players that grinded it out and massively invested in their characters. This decision goes against everything that eve stood for. Welcome to the pay to win era??? |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
258
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 13:17:55 -
[5878] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:A Ingus wrote:Pretty much my feeling on the matter. The decision has already been made. And, just look at this thread. There will be a few buyers. Not as many as CCP hopes I would guess. And it wont benefit new players more than established players looking to shift sp from one alt to another. In fact it might turn off new players that don't appreciate sinking money into their characters after already paying a sub. Just another camel nose with the humps soon to follow. The subscription model will die along with the time based skill system. For a while the changes have smacked of desperate fotm chasing attempts to avoid the effects of shrinking numbers of players. This is entirely the wrong thing. They should stand proud of the uniqueness, slim down, and wait for the world to turn. But they wont. I used to have 4 accounts. But after December there will be none. Nobody will get my stuff. It will slowly fade away waiting for the game to die. Which looks to be, soon. The more I read some of the posts against this, the more I wonder if I'm alone in thinking trading a few years of training for a few months is a bad idea. Surely I can't be the only one who thinks the vets in this game, looking at a 20%-90% loss, won't exactly be willing to sacrifice the convenience on multiple capable characters for a fraction of the return. That's before even looking at any additional cost, but then the lack of benefit means there will be no such cost. Then again, maybe I am the only one who sees it like this. The funny thing is that this whole thing seems to have gone out of it's way to avoid direct sale of SP or anything related to it (more so even than dual training certs), but we're still saying it's an inevitability alongside the death of the sub model. That's odd to me though, why would you set up players as the source if you actually wanted to do it yourself? Why dilute the real money revenue from it with in game isk while at the same time making every SP in the game a competing source of your product? Further, why would you ever think about getting rid of the skill system since it's a strong driver for revenue with progress, and possibly soon in game isk, tied to it? It doesn't make sense for a profit seeking entity. Then again that could just be my perspective again. I don't think your understanding what some are trying to say either, I have a character i could quite easily remove 26 or so million sp's from. Of those 26m i would like to reassign 7m into something else on the same character but can't because on removing them to me they only become 50k packets. I don't need isk i don't need to strip any toon down for money, so if i can't reallocate my 7 million i sure as hell ain't gonna part with all the rest to give someone else the benefit of them - Your on about bitter vet's all the time but screwing them over for a sub 50m player sure ain't going to help this. This Personalization is flawed to anyone above 50m skill points, like i've said before once you turn the backbone of the game into a pay2 access system where is there any prestige and uniqueness ??
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 13:52:22 -
[5879] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: Loyalty was
Maybe it was but now it's just blackmailing. If they want to blackmail - fine, but it must have a backdraw. Quiting as every action must have consequences.
Levi Belvar wrote: We all started out the new guys we all know whats its like and most had it a lot worse than what you have today.
They crossed that line long time ago and back then there is no guy with 200m+ SP. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
269
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 14:15:14 -
[5880] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: Loyalty was
Maybe it was but now it's just blackmailing. If they want to blackmail - fine, but it must have a backdraw. Quiting as every action must have consequences. Levi Belvar wrote: We all started out the new guys we all know whats its like and most had it a lot worse than what you have today.
They crossed that line long time ago and back then there was no guy with 200m+ SP. Then why dont you just go and **** off and play the same old generic MMO your used to and stop trying to poison this one.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 14:19:20 -
[5881] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: Loyalty was
Maybe it was but now it's just blackmailing. If they want to blackmail - fine, but it must have a backdraw. Quiting as every action must have consequences. Levi Belvar wrote: We all started out the new guys we all know whats its like and most had it a lot worse than what you have today.
They crossed that line long time ago and back then there was no guy with 200m+ SP. Then why dont you just go and **** off and play the same old generic MMO your used to and stop trying to poison this one. It's rude, mr.bitvet |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
269
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 14:23:32 -
[5882] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: Loyalty was
Maybe it was but now it's just blackmailing. If they want to blackmail - fine, but it must have a backdraw. Quiting as every action must have consequences. Levi Belvar wrote: We all started out the new guys we all know whats its like and most had it a lot worse than what you have today.
They crossed that line long time ago and back then there was no guy with 200m+ SP. Then why dont you just go and **** off and play the same old generic MMO your used to and stop trying to poison this one. How rude mr.bitvet Thats the whole point your just some clueless ignorant newb who wants everything with no effort or time investment, why the dev's want to pander to someone like you is beyond belief .
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 14:37:16 -
[5883] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: Thats the whole point your just some clueless ignorant newb who wants everything with no effort or time investment
Calm down and breathe deeply. Don't do the same mistake again. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
273
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 14:44:43 -
[5884] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: Thats the whole point your just some clueless ignorant newb who wants everything with no effort or time investment
Calm down and breathe deeply. Don't do the same mistake again. Your just the epitome of a troll, i have no need to calm down the only thing i feel is sorry for someone like you. Your like the bottom of a babies pram, full of pi$$ wind and broken biscuits and to add to that not had one idea of your own bought to this thread just jump on others or pick at quotes that for the most part make you look simple in your replies.
Feel free to delete this whole troll fest @ your leisure ISD.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 14:51:25 -
[5885] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: i have no need to calm down
OK then
Don ZOLA wrote: Just let him rage on :)
|
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
44
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:21:41 -
[5886] - Quote
Levi didn't you notice, we have been trolled the last 290 pages :)
First, when the OP startet this as a feedback thread without answering a single line of the feedback...we only know, as stated on Vegas, CCP Seagull thinks it is very important for the game...
After that Dave came and trolled 150 pages with his one and only argument "you are able to buy SP already via the Bazaar and you can do it without real money because somebody else can buy it for you..."
Then the other two showed up, spamming the same argument, twisting it in every direction...
I wonder how important a change can be, when its main pro argument is, we already have something like it, because of Plex/Bazaar
O.o |
Josef Djugashvilis
3086
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:24:32 -
[5887] - Quote
Dear Vahligmarr, the new cash for skills in not important to the game, it is however, important to CCP's income stream.
This is not a signature.
|
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
44
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:30:22 -
[5888] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dear Vahligmarr, the new cash for skills in not important to the game, it is however, important to CCP's income stream.
Tell CCP seagull please <.< |
Josef Djugashvilis
3086
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:34:03 -
[5889] - Quote
Vahligmarr wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dear Vahligmarr, the new cash for skills in not important to the game, it is however, important to CCP's income stream. Tell CCP seagull please <.<
She already knows :)
What bothers me, is the sad attempt to pass it off as an improvement for us, the players, rather than being open and honest and simply saying that (they) CCP need the extra icome for whatever reason.
This is not a signature.
|
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
44
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:40:45 -
[5890] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Vahligmarr wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dear Vahligmarr, the new cash for skills in not important to the game, it is however, important to CCP's income stream. Tell CCP seagull please <.< She already knows :) What bothers me, is the sad attempt to pass it off as an improvement for us, the players, rather than being open and honest and simply saying that (they) CCP need the extra icome for whatever reason.
Yeah, exactly. A huge disappointment. If they are in need of more income, they should tell us. I would gladly pay 20$ a month subscription, if they leave some fundamentals as they are and the promise that they don't go f2p |
|
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
60
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 17:32:30 -
[5891] - Quote
I hope it does go free to play, the amount of new players that would bring would be amazing. |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
510
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 17:42:25 -
[5892] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:I hope it does go free to play, the amount of new players that would bring would be amazing.
Yup. Will be totally amazing. Just look at the awesome free to play Dust. I can't wait till the day we have that many players in eve!
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 17:48:39 -
[5893] - Quote
Vahligmarr wrote: Yeah, exactly. A huge disappointment. If they are in need of more income, they should tell us. I would gladly pay 20$ a month subscription, if they leave some fundamentals as they are with the promise that they don't go f2p
General Lootit wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Just make players pay more, and there are players who are willing to pay more. It's all about the price. Any money to keep a crown. |
Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
51
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 19:19:04 -
[5894] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:I hope it does go free to play, the amount of new players that would bring would be amazing.
I want new players to join because its a good game not because it's free to play. Trial is free already, one month should be enough to decide if you like it. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3090
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 20:33:09 -
[5895] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:I hope it does go free to play, the amount of new players that would bring would be amazing. Yup. Will be totally amazing. Just look at the awesome free to play Dust. I can't wait till the day we have that many players in eve!
Well, if Eve Online ever does become 'free to play' then, going by the number of people who play DUST (I mean no disrespect to either of them) we will have to donate PLEX to CCP so that they can feed themselves and their families.
For your sake, I hope you are trolling.
This is not a signature.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 00:01:49 -
[5896] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:I hope it does go free to play, the amount of new players that would bring would be amazing. Yup. Will be totally amazing. Just look at the awesome free to play Dust. I can't wait till the day we have that many players in eve! Well, if Eve Online ever does become 'free to play' then, going by the number of people who play DUST (I mean no disrespect to either of them) we will have to donate PLEX to CCP so that they can feed themselves and their families. For your sake, I hope you are trolling. Heh, that's a great way of putting it Niko
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
HanterRU Z
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 01:12:33 -
[5897] - Quote
#1 - 2015-11-21 00:54:25 UTC | | Edited by: HanterRU Z i just noticed this post by the devs.
So SP can be traded if this patch happens and bought and sold on eve market...mmm like plex yes..
Lets see..we have PLEX which can be purchased with real world cash.. this can be sold ingame for isk..then this in turn can now be turned in to bought SP..
So people with loads of cash in real life can simply buy thier way to a stronger bigger toon..and those who cant..deal with it and train for yrs..
i remember that leaked memo..
GREED IS GOOD..remember that ccp
im not suprised the server population has dropped from a steady 52k at peak times to barley crossing 30k threshold
CCP Rise on behalf of Team Size Matters ( Yeah the size of your real world wallet)
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HanterRU Z
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 01:21:14 -
[5898] - Quote
heres a run down of a few yrs ago
1) CCP announces their GÇ£AmbulationGÇ¥ or GÇ£Walking in StationsGÇ¥ expansion sometime in 2006. Some people get excited at the prospect. Others ***** at how this takes away from real game issues, and how there are more important things to take care of.
2) Teaser after teaser for the expansion gets released over the years. Gameplay systems and bugs get fixed, lag is patched over and over, and more interaction is added to the EVE universe. Among them, players can conquer sectors of space, mine for minerals on planets with special equipment, run deepspace instances, explore wormholes, create new items and train new skills. During this period, GÇ£walking in stationsGÇ¥ is seemingly vaporware, save for an update to the character creation engine late last year, seemingly in preparation for the update.
3) In May 2011, CCP holds the first ever EVE Fanfest, which according to their website GǣGǪbrings together players in a massive celebration of the virtual world of EVE Online.Gǥ It seems to be a huge success, bringing CCP and the community together like never before.
4) Less than one month later, this all falls apart:
a) During a tournament, CCP shows a new gold colored battleship, available from their new microtransation store, the aptly named GÇ£Noble Exchange.GÇ¥ People rage at the implication of being able to buy a ship that took others months of saving to get. More rage at paying $50 to buy a ship as easily destructible as any other battleship. b) Days later, a developer posts about a fee to post third party apps for EVE Online on an GÇ£App StoreGÇ¥. The words GÇ£monitizationGÇ¥, GÇ£small feeGÇ¥ and GÇ£$99 dollarsGÇ¥ are used in the same paragraph. People rage more. c) Somewhere around here, an internal CCP newsletter is leaked with the title GÇ£Greed Is Good?GÇ¥. People get even more pissed off. d) Incarna launches. Clothing items including the infamous $68 monocle cause things to go into overdrive. |
Veraca Darmazaf
EVE University Ivy League
18
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 01:31:28 -
[5899] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Well, if Eve Online ever does become 'free to play' then, going by the number of people who play DUST (I mean no disrespect to either of them) we will have to donate PLEX to CCP so that they can feed themselves and their families.
For your sake, I hope you are trolling.
Heh, that's a great way of putting it Niko Yes, clearly the only difference between Dust and EVE, and therefore the only reason for a difference in population, is the payment model.
That's not to say I agree one way or the other on how well EVE would handle a F2P transition, merely that I think that particular argument is silly at best. |
Revenant
Empirical Solutions
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 01:32:01 -
[5900] - Quote
virm pasuul wrote:My gut reaction is negative, but in my attempt to express logical reasons I can only come up with two things I like about it:
1 It is an skill point sink, it will remove skill points from the game. The best conversion rate is 1:1 where no skill points are lost. In all other cases more skill points are consumed than released and so skill points are removed. I like the concept of this. As skill points are removed, the existing skill points will have slightly more value, in theory anyway.
2 It will make the construction of fresh spying alts easier, especially if there is no record of it's use in the API. I like the meta possibilities that may arise from it. For those paying attention it would be fairly easy to spot - skill points versus character age.
3 Encourages muppetry. This was going to be a negative until I realised, no wait that's a positive. If players can bling their characters for RL cash the way they bling their ships then that just means more clueless idiots flying around, who don't have the knowledge of how to play the game properly. I am all for this, more juicy targets for shiney loot and killmails.
against : It does tilt towards pay to win, but no more than already exists. What's the difference between what's proposed here and buying PLEX to turn into ISK to buy a character. It's just a different way to achieve the same ends.
This. While my gut reaction was definitely negative, this post hits it on the head. Still not really a fan of the idea for whatever reason. I would say that selling complete skills versus unallocated SP would be preferred, though I'd prefer a revamped / integrated character bazaar over this concept in general. |
|
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
511
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 02:35:03 -
[5901] - Quote
Veraca Darmazaf wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Well, if Eve Online ever does become 'free to play' then, going by the number of people who play DUST (I mean no disrespect to either of them) we will have to donate PLEX to CCP so that they can feed themselves and their families.
For your sake, I hope you are trolling.
Heh, that's a great way of putting it Niko Yes, clearly the only difference between Dust and EVE, and therefore the only reason for a difference in population, is the payment model. That's not to say I agree one way or the other on how well EVE would handle a F2P transition, merely that I think that particular argument is silly at best.
Not as silly as implying that making a game free to play will automatically make it flooded with activity and players. My point was dismissing that notion as ridiculous. I'm not sure why I'm even explaining this, should be obvious. |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
511
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 02:38:40 -
[5902] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:I hope it does go free to play, the amount of new players that would bring would be amazing. Yup. Will be totally amazing. Just look at the awesome free to play Dust. I can't wait till the day we have that many players in eve! Well, if Eve Online ever does become 'free to play' then, going by the number of people who play DUST (I mean no disrespect to either of them) we will have to donate PLEX to CCP so that they can feed themselves and their families. For your sake, I hope you are trolling.
It's not trolling, it's sarcasm. |
Veraca Darmazaf
EVE University Ivy League
18
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 02:51:30 -
[5903] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote: Not as silly as implying that making a game free to play will automatically make it flooded with activity and players. My point was dismissing that notion as ridiculous. I'm not sure why I'm even explaining this, should be obvious.
Sarcasm on the internet is tricky. I interpreted your post to mean you thought f2p would massively slash the population - the exact opposite of what you were replying to - rather than merely have a lesser effect as you apparently meant. |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
511
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 07:22:24 -
[5904] - Quote
Veraca Darmazaf wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote: Not as silly as implying that making a game free to play will automatically make it flooded with activity and players. My point was dismissing that notion as ridiculous. I'm not sure why I'm even explaining this, should be obvious.
Sarcasm on the internet is tricky. I interpreted your post to mean you thought f2p would massively slash the population - the exact opposite of what you were replying to - rather than merely have a lesser effect as you apparently meant.
Yes. That being said, I do think going F2P is actually going to harm EVE's population. This whole direction EVE is heading in is either going to slowly bleed the game to death or change it into a themepark MMO. |
DeepHole Trild
Deeps corp
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 20:12:58 -
[5905] - Quote
ehm alright ...
This idea came up after years of discussing how to bring more new players to eve and have them stick longer than the 2-3 weeks trial, right?
The first question which pops up:
- Is it going to attract more new people to Eve and have them stick longer? - If new players don`t stick because of the idea they can never catch up on older players than what is this idea to which they think never can live up to? It seems to be new players think 'big = more guns = better'. And, will this trading skills system going to change that idea?
Everything about Eve if you first join radiates: Big = more guns = better. Also on the killboards there is no other differentiation but DPS. You either got lots of DPS or you have got a fleet with lots of DPS so you can get on top of the killboard. The single role which is celebrated is the role of DPS.
Reward different roles equally and this idea new players have might change so they can live up to the idea they too can be part of something within a reasonable amount of time. Change the killboards for example to also show the fleet who did the most reps so they could deiliver the most DPS. In stead of DPS rules all.
New players can live up to some of these roles in short notice and feel they are doing something which adds up to each individual taking part in a fleet.
Finally, there is no example in real life where you can get skilled in something from one day into the other. It feels counter intuitive. And, for those games who actually have these trade offs, skills for money and vice versa, are the games built on hypes. Where new players come and go rapidly anyway.
Either way, I do love the idea but I don`t think it will have new players stay longer then the 2-3 weeks trial.
Celebrate every role equally. Tell the story of EVE both in numbers and in roles on a daily basis. Killboards should go more in depth, unraveling the story of teamwork.
o7 |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 21:27:16 -
[5906] - Quote
DeepHole Trild wrote: - Is it going to attract more new people to Eve and have them stick longer?
I think(as noob) it will helps me but it isn't the main reason why I'm sticking with the game. Main reason is friendly community of players |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4185
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 21:39:04 -
[5907] - Quote
Just some additional thoughts.
If a player doesn't likes the game enough when he haves low skills, he's unlikely to like it further just with more skills. Having more skills doesn't makes the game better, or more enjoyable.
What a faster skilling does for sure, is to shorten up the tenure of those disastisfied player, who rather than sit on the fence for months can find out sooner that their issue is not with skills, but with the game.
So, players who enjoy the game and would become long term players will become it the same (just faster or for a higher price), and EVE will just burn out and churn faster those who don't like the game enough to play it for a decade but currently need a couple of years to notice that EVE is not made for them.
I can understand how CCP may be a bit more worried than CCP Quant implies with the PCU numbers, but I can't sympathize with their misled efforts to revert that situation.
EVE has stopped growing in the worst way possible: first, it has given up new players by adding "Level 80" content only, and second it has compounded that by neglecting (out of unawareness or poor decission making) the core of its population, the silent but dependable highsec solo PvE cash cows.
Selling them that Raven faster is not going to change anything. It's just a feast today, famine tomorrow situation.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 22:10:00 -
[5908] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Just some additional thoughts.
If a player doesn't likes the game enough when he haves low skills, he's unlikely to like it further just with more skills. Having more skills doesn't makes the game better, or more enjoyable. It was a radical thought. If having more skills doesn't makes the game better, or more enjoyable for you a) Stop traning skills b) Vote for Dror(with his idea to get rid of SP system) c) Transfer your high SP toon to me or someone else who can enjoy it. There no differense between playing low SP toon and high one. Right?
Just kidding. If you were right than there wouldn't be exist such thing as bazaar.
Post with opposite opinion
Lan Wang wrote:I bought my first character when i was at 4mil sp, jumped to 42mil sp, was always my intention to buy a character as soon as i heard about the bazaar, but only once i would buy a main character, buying that character made me relevant in fleets and i had much more fun with 42mil sp than i did with 4mil sp, it didnt make me that much better at the game but it certainly made one hell of a difference.
I really dont see much of an issue with this as my now highish sp doesnt really matter to me anymore, i dont really even bother looking at my skills unless the fc's decide on a new doctrine which i cant already fly but i feel much better about having to invest little to no time training skills to get that ship.
Sometimes a small boost in skills really makes the game so much more enjoyable
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:What a faster skilling does for sure, is to shorten up the tenure of those disastisfied player, who rather than sit on the fence for months can find out sooner that their issue is not with skills, but with the game.
Do you want tie them up to torture them more? |
Will Howard
Dark Skies Dojo
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 22:46:44 -
[5909] - Quote
I don't see that much of a difference in the outcome that you get when someone with too much money buys a character from the character bazaar.
As I sit in a bait venture on a gas site waiting for the stupid proteus pilot who obviously has no clue try to scan me down with combat probes, I knew he bought his pilot and I was pondering the whole "if you're bad no amount of skill points will fix that" line of thinking. Couldn't scan down the venture and apparently didn't realize he could just warp to the gas site to get me (and disregarding that everything we were doing smelled like a complete trap to anyone who has played eve for more than a couple of weeks) so I warped into his probes for him with an industrial.
This skill pack idea will probably yeild the same effect. More shiny kills from dumbasses who don't know what they are doing.
There's probably many ways to exploit this I'm sure. The prices involved would be an important factor in determining how I guess but other than the fact that it's a small step in the direction of pay to win I don't really see how this will hurt anyone but the people who use it. |
Tia Tzu
G.E.A.R.
11
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 23:11:34 -
[5910] - Quote
I must say returning back to the game last week after a couple of years away it looked like CCP had learned some lessons from the past and I was reasonably optimistic, but I see it must have been a lucid period that I missed out on and now they are ready to bring out the same old crazy that I got used to over the last ten years. I dont argue that many including myself would not find this useful, but the usual suspects are surely going to exploit it like they do everything else.. I hope CCP will decide to take this brain fart back to the drawing board like WIS never to be heard about again.. |
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 23:30:36 -
[5911] - Quote
CCP I will really appreciate if you public anonymous statistic of this thread. Especially I want to know how often same person using different characters to post. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
201
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 23:39:05 -
[5912] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:CCP I will really appreciate if you public anonymous statistic of this thread. Especially I want to know how often same person using different characters to post.
Alts are definitely more use for "pro" posts, so I doubt that would work in your favor. Btw, good luck getting CCP to communicate with you/us here :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 00:04:55 -
[5913] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:CCP I will really appreciate if you public anonymous statistic of this thread. Especially I want to know how often same person using different characters to post. Alts are definitely more use for "pro" posts, so I doubt that would work in your favor. Btw, good luck getting CCP to communicate with you/us here :D
A Ingus wrote: I used to have 4 accounts.
I can't afford as many as vet can. "con" mans could be real con-mans. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
201
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 16:42:47 -
[5914] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:General Lootit wrote:CCP I will really appreciate if you public anonymous statistic of this thread. Especially I want to know how often same person using different characters to post. Alts are definitely more use for "pro" posts, so I doubt that would work in your favor. Btw, good luck getting CCP to communicate with you/us here :D A Ingus wrote: I used to have 4 accounts.
I can't afford as many as vet can and my terrible russian accent should already gave me up but I have no alt. "con" mans could be real con-mans.
I never said you used them. Just that majority of pro posts are done by chars which look like alts But even if it was truth, it still does not matter obviously as CCP does not care about anything that was discussed here
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 17:36:48 -
[5915] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: I never said you used them.
Thanks god. I thought you blame me again as several previous times.
Don ZOLA wrote:Just that majority of pro posts are done by chars which look like alts Which ones? Just interesting. Will Howard looks like Dror. They have similar avatars(style), same month of birth and Will Howard poped up after I mentioned Dror. I could mistaken as you know and all of this is just coincidence.
Don ZOLA wrote:But even if it was truth, it still does not matter obviously as CCP does not care about anything that was discussed here Yeap, this is sad. Anyway only CCP could say it for sure. Script is needed to group up charachters with same account than accounts with same owner and finally some monotone work(read several posts of each owner to determine his position "con" or "pro") Result must say how many alts were used on each side. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
201
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 19:10:37 -
[5916] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: I never said you used them.
Thanks god. I thought you blame me again as several previous times. Don ZOLA wrote:Just that majority of pro posts are done by chars which look like alts Which ones? Just interesting. Will Howard looks like Dror. They have similar avatars(style), same month of birth and Will Howard poped up after I mentioned Dror. I could mistaken as you know and all of this is just coincidence. Don ZOLA wrote:But even if it was truth, it still does not matter obviously as CCP does not care about anything that was discussed here Yeap, this is sad. Anyway only CCP could say it for sure. Script is needed to group up charachters with same account than accounts with same owner and finally some monotone work(read several posts of each owner to determine his position "con" or "pro") Result must show how many alts were used on each side.
1. I blamed you for trolling, not posting with alts 2. I doubt Dror is using alts, he has quite unique POV and specific way of posting 3. There is much more ways these forums could be improved, but I guess it is easier for CCP employees to go to some third side forums, we are aware they do not care about subscribed players anyway :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 19:48:11 -
[5917] - Quote
Now you become a nice guy. Stay this way.
Don ZOLA wrote: 1. I blamed you for trolling, not posting with alts
First you blamed me in trolling then in spamming so I used inductive logic because you didn't specify about whom you talked about.
Don ZOLA wrote: 2. I doubt Dror is using alts, he has quite unique POV and specific way of posting
Maybe they have same photographer
Don ZOLA wrote: 3. There is much more ways these forums could be improved, but I guess it is easier for CCP employees to go to some third side forums, we are aware they do not care about subscribed players anyway :D
Menthioning miscommunication third time in the row I think it's too much. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
201
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 21:34:34 -
[5918] - Quote
[Conspiracy theory] Seems some are already preparing for this - Rent in TSP? [/conspiracy theory]
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Rocker Will
Rockstar federation
30
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 21:45:03 -
[5919] - Quote
Rocker Will wrote:I heard people talking about this in Amar, I thought It was a bad idea but after reading the blog it actually sounds pretty good, adding to that I think new players should start with something near to mastery level 3 with frigs
|
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1666
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 05:23:21 -
[5920] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:[Conspiracy theory] Seems some are already preparing for this - Rent in TSP? [/conspiracy theory] Edit: I guess they will not wanted to be involved with the market games and price control at all :D
Sounds like someone leaked info to the group who will benefit the most, who'd have guessed. So which of the Goon CSM was it. |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6861
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 07:44:08 -
[5921] - Quote
Sounds like an even less hassle version of renting.
Are we exploring the renting bazaar and region trading?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1746
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 08:37:56 -
[5922] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:I don't think your understanding what some are trying to say either, I have a character i could quite easily remove 26 or so million sp's from. Of those 26m i would like to reassign 7m into something else on the same character but can't because on removing them to me they only become 50k packets. I don't need isk i don't need to strip any toon down for money, so if i can't reallocate my 7 million i sure as hell ain't gonna part with all the rest to give someone else the benefit of them - Your on about bitter vet's all the time but screwing them over for a sub 50m player sure ain't going to help this. This Personalization is flawed to anyone above 50m skill points, like i've said before once you turn the backbone of the game into a pay2 access system where is there any prestige and uniqueness ??
EDIT Say they had 2 models of extractors 1 the standard tradeable TSP with it's depreciation scale, then one that was purely for use on the character that it pulled the skill points from with zero loss. A skill realignment model - your still paying extra in some way to do it but without feeling CCP have kicked you in the nuts for being so loyal. We've had this conversation. There is no gap in understanding, there or here. Just the disagreement regarding whether the use of extractors/TSP for remapping purposes should incur loss or not. I still hold to what I stated prior, that I should not be able to losslessly remove any training "mistakes" to put me even with those that more effectively used their training time.
The "screwing the vets" argument doesn't fly with me as one of those vets. Being paid for doesn't bypass the principle of 1st time training choices sticking or having some level of consequence. Even if TSP allows one to speed up other trains, it doesn't bypass what you already have and the consequence of having it. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
277
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 09:52:51 -
[5923] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:I don't think your understanding what some are trying to say either, I have a character i could quite easily remove 26 or so million sp's from. Of those 26m i would like to reassign 7m into something else on the same character but can't because on removing them to me they only become 50k packets. I don't need isk i don't need to strip any toon down for money, so if i can't reallocate my 7 million i sure as hell ain't gonna part with all the rest to give someone else the benefit of them - Your on about bitter vet's all the time but screwing them over for a sub 50m player sure ain't going to help this. This Personalization is flawed to anyone above 50m skill points, like i've said before once you turn the backbone of the game into a pay2 access system where is there any prestige and uniqueness ??
EDIT Say they had 2 models of extractors 1 the standard tradeable TSP with it's depreciation scale, then one that was purely for use on the character that it pulled the skill points from with zero loss. A skill realignment model - your still paying extra in some way to do it but without feeling CCP have kicked you in the nuts for being so loyal. We've had this conversation. There is no gap in understanding, there or here. Just the disagreement regarding whether the use of extractors/TSP for remapping purposes should incur loss or not. I still hold to what I stated prior, that I should not be able to losslessly remove any training "mistakes" to put me even with those that more effectively used their training time. The "screwing the vets" argument doesn't fly with me as one of those vets. Being paid for doesn't bypass the principle of 1st time training choices sticking or having some level of consequence. Even if TSP allows one to speed up other trains, it doesn't bypass what you already have and the consequence of having it. You can't have it both way's Ty there either is or isn't consequences and by virtue of being able to create "the perfect" character from scratch there won't be a consequence. Anyone under 50 mill can extract all there mistakes and reallocate there skills with a minimum loss - Thats a 2.5 years old character. So us that have been playing 10 years plus your saying it's hard luck then ?
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1746
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 10:14:57 -
[5924] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:You can't have it both way's Ty there either is or isn't consequences and by virtue of being able to create "the perfect" character from scratch there won't be a consequence. Anyone under 50 mill can extract all there mistakes and reallocate there skills with a minimum loss - Thats a 2.5 years old character. So us that have been playing 10 years plus your saying it's hard luck then ? There is no both ways. There is only one way. You have a certain amount of SP and get a return from a TSP accordingly. That's not 2 ways, that's exactly one way. If you want to disassemble your > 50mill SP char to assemble a perfect 50mill char that option is open. The 10 years vets can easily take advantage of that.
If you want proof of tenure as if that was some kind of qualifier, look at my employment history. I'm well over the 2.5 years that it would take to get past 50m SP. If you want more than that, you'll have to do without.
Simple as before, respecs of SP shouldn't be free, and the more you have to move the more of an issue it becomes, thus the scaling being positive. If it really bothers you you can create a new character with better returns and more focus.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
277
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 10:53:33 -
[5925] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:You can't have it both way's Ty there either is or isn't consequences and by virtue of being able to create "the perfect" character from scratch there won't be a consequence. Anyone under 50 mill can extract all there mistakes and reallocate there skills with a minimum loss - Thats a 2.5 years old character. So us that have been playing 10 years plus your saying it's hard luck then ? There is no both ways. There is only one way. You have a certain amount of SP and get a return from a TSP accordingly. That's not 2 ways, that's exactly one way. If you want to disassemble your > 50mill SP char to assemble a perfect 50mill char that option is open. The 10 years vets can easily take advantage of that. If you want proof of tenure as if that was some kind of qualifier, look at my employment history. I'm well over the 2.5 years that it would take to get past 50m SP. If you want more than that, you'll have to do without. Simple as before, respecs of SP shouldn't be free, and the more you have to move the more of an issue it becomes, thus the scaling being positive. If it really bothers you you can create a new character with better returns and more focus. Your very narrow minded on this. I'm not on about dismantling one character to build a new one i'm on about creating a toon from bought TSP's from the market ( Sub 50 mill ) wont be that expensive to a lot of people. Same with the existing sub 50 mill players can remove ( extract ) there mistakes, reallocate them into what they want with minimal loss. They have zero to minimal consequences, anyone above 80 mill CCP have basically said screw you. None of the above benefits a completely new player to the game paying just a sub, unless he's willing to start forking out even more $$$ to keep up.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1746
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 11:39:41 -
[5926] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Your very narrow minded on this. I'm not on about dismantling one character to build a new one i'm on about creating a toon from bought TSP's from the market ( Sub 50 mill ) wont be that expensive to a lot of people. Same with the existing sub 50 mill players can remove ( extract ) there mistakes, reallocate them into what they want with minimal loss. They have zero to minimal consequences, anyone above 80 mill CCP have basically said screw you. None of the above benefits a completely new player to the game paying just a sub, unless he's willing to start forking out even more $$$ to keep up. The only ones to have 0 consequence are those that can't use the feature to respec SP, sub 5mill characters. Those 5-50mill suffer 20% loss, while having between 6% to 60% of the toal SP to play with that someone who just entered the 80mill + bracket. The only issue I see with that it that the scaling isn't aggressive enough.
50mill SP is to high to still be getting 80% returns. At that point you have more than enough SP for the concepts of training decisions to have serious meaning, and thus loss when reallocated. There is no issue with 80mill+ players having to decide between big loss or their prior training decisions. The issue is that 50mill SP players largely don't to a disproportionate level as proposed.
There is no screw you to the players that have the flexibility of high SP characters. The entire system benefits them all the time. The ability to respec large amounts of SP just makes that advantage frivolous to devalue since any specialty is just a respec away. At least diminishing value keeps further specs an increasing value away. And that's what's needed with CCP's numbers. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
277
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 12:41:07 -
[5927] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Your very narrow minded on this. I'm not on about dismantling one character to build a new one i'm on about creating a toon from bought TSP's from the market ( Sub 50 mill ) wont be that expensive to a lot of people. Same with the existing sub 50 mill players can remove ( extract ) there mistakes, reallocate them into what they want with minimal loss. They have zero to minimal consequences, anyone above 80 mill CCP have basically said screw you. None of the above benefits a completely new player to the game paying just a sub, unless he's willing to start forking out even more $$$ to keep up. The only ones to have 0 consequence are those that can't use the feature to respec SP, sub 5mill characters. Those 5-50mill suffer 20% loss, while having between 6% to 60% of the toal SP to play with that someone who just entered the 80mill + bracket. The only issue I see with that it that the scaling isn't aggressive enough. 50mill SP is to high to still be getting 80% returns. At that point you have more than enough SP for the concepts of training decisions to have serious meaning, and thus loss when reallocated. There is no issue with 80mill+ players having to decide between big loss or their prior training decisions. The issue is that 50mill SP players largely don't to a disproportionate level as proposed. There is no screw you to the players that have the flexibility of high SP characters. The entire system benefits them all the time. The ability to respec large amounts of SP just makes that advantage frivolous to devalue since any specialty is just a respec away. At least diminishing value keeps further specs an increasing value away. And that's what's needed with CCP's numbers. So after the lengthy explanation, sub 50 mill have got basically a reskill facility with minimal loss and the vets get a big screw you !! Anyway you paint it this whole feature is aimed at the 5-50 group to which i said its totally flawed. They may as well have a second model of extractor that gives a reskill or would that mean that with the vets reskilling they wont be parting with there skills for free to supply all the new players ??
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1747
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 20:05:50 -
[5928] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:So after the lengthy explanation, sub 50 mill have got basically a reskill facility with minimal loss and the vets get a big screw you !! Anyway you paint it this whole feature is aimed at the 5-50 group to which i said its totally flawed. They may as well have a second model of extractor that gives a reskill or would that mean that with the vets reskilling they wont be parting with there skills for free to supply all the new players ?? Are you suggesting that this feature, pushed as helping new players, actually targets its benefit towards them and calling that a problem?
Are you further saying that as a vet everything has to benefit you proportionally to your tenure?
These seem to be the core of your opposition. If you can't use it on your 80mill + SP character it's a "screw you", even knowing that yes, the feature is aimed at < 50mill players to preserve the rarity of high SP characters.
As someone well past 80mill I don't see why 5 years of skill decision making should be easily and costlessly undone. You still haven't justified that aside from suggesting you deserve it because you've played the game for a while.
And no, I don't think those of us will be supplying new players from our mains save those with a few skills we really regret training. Personally I'm happy with what's in my characters and as such won't be using this as a seller, buyer or respec'er. The former I won't do because I see no need, the latter 2 I won't do because the returns are abysmal as they should be. That return means my decisions past and present still have value.
Also, no, I didn't say 50mill should have "free respecs" I clearly stated that 50mill was too high for 80% respecs per CCPs plan. At that mark 50% return, maybe lower, should be in effect. The only characters that should be able to do efficient transfers are those with nothing really to move. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
280
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 21:03:38 -
[5929] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:So after the lengthy explanation, sub 50 mill have got basically a reskill facility with minimal loss and the vets get a big screw you !! Anyway you paint it this whole feature is aimed at the 5-50 group to which i said its totally flawed. They may as well have a second model of extractor that gives a reskill or would that mean that with the vets reskilling they wont be parting with there skills for free to supply all the new players ?? Are you suggesting that this feature, pushed as helping new players, actually targets its benefit towards them and calling that a problem? Are you further saying that as a vet everything has to benefit you proportionally to your tenure? These seem to be the core of your opposition. If you can't use it on your 80mill + SP character it's a "screw you", even knowing that yes, the feature is aimed at < 50mill players to preserve the rarity of high SP characters. As someone well past 80mill I don't see why 5 years of skill decision making should be easily and costlessly undone. You still haven't justified that aside from suggesting you deserve it because you've played the game for a while. And no, I don't think those of us will be supplying new players from our mains save those with a few skills we really regret training. Personally I'm happy with what's in my characters and as such won't be using this as a seller, buyer or respec'er. The former I won't do because I see no need, the latter 2 I won't do because the returns are abysmal as they should be. That return means my decisions past and present still have value. Also, no, I didn't say 50mill should have "free respecs" I clearly stated that 50mill was too high for 80% respecs per CCPs plan. At that mark 50% return, maybe lower, should be in effect. The only characters that should be able to do efficient transfers are those with nothing really to move. I was being sarcastic there is sweet FA that helps new players, even ones that make errors at the beginning still can't alter anything until theyre 5m plus. The whole thing is based on " Personalization " what im saying is why can't vets have any personalization, the only thing vets are seen as in this whole ******* mess are skill sacks to be dissected and sold on. Surely if something is implemented like this is should benefit everyone in game. That rarity and prestige is the biggest load of bollox i've seen in a long time, theyre selling skillpoints be it extracted or bazaar anyone can now buy there way into the game rarity is null and void.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Alavaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
69
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 21:21:58 -
[5930] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:They may as well have a second model of extractor that gives a reskill or would that mean that with the vets reskilling they wont be parting with there skills for free to supply all the new players ?? That might be a useful thing to have around.
Loyalty is a virtue, participation brings reward.
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1747
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 21:42:51 -
[5931] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:I was being sarcastic there is sweet FA that helps new players, even ones that make errors at the beginning still can't alter anything until theyre 5m plus. The whole thing is based on " Personalization " what im saying is why can't vets have any personalization, the only thing vets are seen as in this whole ******* mess are skill sacks to be dissected and sold on. Surely if something is implemented like this is should benefit everyone in game. That rarity and prestige is the biggest load of bollox i've seen in a long time, theyre selling skillpoints be it extracted or bazaar anyone can now buy there way into the game rarity is null and void. There is nothing "bollox" about the advantage and utility of having more than one 100mill + SP characters, especially with supporting skill sets. That's what vets are seen as. Capable characters with years of decisions behind that capability.
I think that's where we're conflicting; you're seeing the SP fueling the packets coming from us vet characters where I'm seeing it coming mostly from characters which would otherwise be sold or from potentially SP farmers on accounts with little training need. I expect the system should and will disincentivize using older characters with any part of this system as proposed.
If anything, there may be a one time shedding of unused or unnecessary skills where they are no longer needed (BS V cap pilots, barge trained orca pilots and such.) and that will likely fuel the initial seed of the TSPs. But past that, unless those vets decide to keep training skills they don't want, that's a one time thing.
Regarding Personalization: That's what you've been doing for years. Every training decision is personalization. This idea isn't the origin of character personalization, rather it's an alternative to having time be the only means of creating that personalization. The flaws in your training are equally part of that series of personalizations, and should have a cost to undo. And currently with no method of recourse or recovery. Personalization != 0 consequence training decisions.
Regarding Benefit: And with no current means of recovery, even 10% is a benefit over the current not at all system. So yes, even vets benefit. Even vets can remove unwanted skills. They simply have a harder decision about what to do with the SP once removed, but it caps abuses created by being able to efficiently move hundreds of millions of SP on a whim.
Regarding Rarity: High SP characters are now as rare as players chose to make them. Bazaar characters are not sold by CCP, but by players with CCP taking a transfer fee. If the proposed goes into effect the same will occur but more granularly. Then the limit will be the result of what you have the ability to purchase from the available supply. And at a point, since the scale works on SP and not age, any attempts to encroach on the high SP realm run into the same issues of efficiency that those already there face, and we have a head start.
If the system really does allow for the building of 50mill alts effortlessly but becomes as onerous as you suggest at 80m SP+, us >100mill SP players are indeed going to be rare and prestigious. If we're not, then the scaling isn't as much of a deterrent as you claim. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
281
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 22:18:00 -
[5932] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I think that's where we're conflicting; you're seeing the SP fueling the packets coming from us vet characters where I'm seeing it coming mostly from characters which would otherwise be sold or from potentially SP farmers on accounts with little training need. I expect the system should and will disincentivize using older characters with any part of this system as proposed. A few pages back you thought it highly amusing over the SP farm part now your adding it back in ???
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Regarding Rarity: High SP characters are now as rare as players chose to make them. Bazaar characters are not sold by CCP, but by players with CCP taking a transfer fee. If the proposed goes into effect the same will occur but more granularly. Then the limit will be the result of what you have the ability to purchase from the available supply. And at a point, since the scale works on SP and not age, any attempts to encroach on the high SP realm run into the same issues of efficiency that those already there face, and we have a head start. CCP owns everything, You just have your time investment. CCP allows you to move there property from account A to account B for a fee. You have your time investment but there is no such thing as a head start when you will be able to buy chunks of time and insert it at will.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1747
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 22:36:37 -
[5933] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:A few pages back you thought it highly amusing over the SP farm part now your adding it back in ??? Context is important. Then it was the specific situation of farming SP for combining rather than sale. The former is an up to 90% loss proposition, which for most I imagine is a non-starter. The latter on the other hand suffers no loss since extraction and sale aren't scaled.
So yes, farming for the purpose of consolidation is an amusingly bad proposition, farming for sale on the other hand is not.
Levi Belvar wrote:CCP owns everything, You just have your time investment. CCP allows you to move there property from account A to account B for a fee. CCP owning everything doesn't invalidate that they have left the creation of characters to the players paying for that access, thus making those players and their choices the sole source of SP in the game, including characters available for trade. Yes they own them, but that holds no relevance for this discussion since they have left the players with the exclusive capacity to trade them between accounts within the rules they set.
Levi Belvar wrote:You have your time investment but there is no such thing as a head start when you will be able to buy chunks of time and insert it at will. There very much is a head start, and that head start is currently only time, but could be also investment. I'll have to spend nothing from the moment if/when this goes in to have a 150mill SP character. Someone else could buy their way to it, but at significant expense I won't have to incur due to already having invested time.
Thus I have a head start, just not one that translates into a permanent, unencroachable lead.
|
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
282
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 08:32:42 -
[5934] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:A few pages back you thought it highly amusing over the SP farm part now your adding it back in ??? Context is important. Then it was the specific situation of farming SP for combining rather than sale. The former is an up to 90% loss proposition, which for most I imagine is a non-starter. The latter on the other hand suffers no loss since extraction and sale aren't scaled. So yes, farming for the purpose of consolidation is an amusingly bad proposition, farming for sale on the other hand is not. Levi Belvar wrote:CCP owns everything, You just have your time investment. CCP allows you to move there property from account A to account B for a fee. CCP owning everything doesn't invalidate that they have left the creation of characters to the players paying for that access, thus making those players and their choices the sole source of SP in the game, including characters available for trade. Yes they own them, but that holds no relevance for this discussion since they have left the players with the exclusive capacity to trade them between accounts within the rules they set. Levi Belvar wrote:You have your time investment but there is no such thing as a head start when you will be able to buy chunks of time and insert it at will. There very much is a head start, and that head start is currently only time, but could be also investment. I'll have to spend nothing from the moment if/when this goes in to have a 150mill SP character. Someone else could buy their way to it, but at significant expense I won't have to incur due to already having invested time. Thus I have a head start, just not one that translates into a permanent, unencroachable lead. So everything i was saying the other day, you can now twist to your way of thinking because it suites your purpose.There are some here who think that the TSP will be a very cheap option to use, one even stating that he would of virtually given them away. So looking at it this way your time investment could be caught up with very cheaply compared to year on year subbing. Your fine with the fact that someone can buy their way into a game rather than earn it.
EvE was unique the only thing you needed to bring to the game was time, It doesn't matter how you perceived it. With this it's gone. They're not doing anything to help the new player except part with more cash, We've already concluded skill point's don't equal experience. How is this going to benefit anything long term to draw in new blood and stay.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1747
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 10:56:22 -
[5935] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:[So everything i was saying the other day, you can now twist to your way of thinking because it suites your purpose.There are some here who think that the TSP will be a very cheap option to use, one even stating that he would of virtually given them away. So looking at it this way your time investment could be caught up with very cheaply compared to year on year subbing. Your fine with the fact that someone can buy their way into a game rather than earn it.
EvE was unique the only thing you needed to bring to the game was time, It doesn't matter how you perceived it. With this it's gone. They're not doing anything to help the new player except part with more cash, We've already concluded skill point's don't equal experience. How is this going to benefit anything long term to draw in new blood and stay. Um. no, you're the one trying to twist things. You tried to twist my statements about people consolidating SP to be about collecting for sale purposes. There was no change for my part, just you trying to tell me an apple is an orange.
Regarding the price of TSP, one of a few things can happen, either they end up being expensive, and people will have to go through considerable expense, or they end up being trivial and I may partake myself, maintaining my lead. Or I'll more likely not care either way since Eve is a low maintenance game for me, and that won't change since I'm not in an SP contest with anyone.
But we really don't know where that price will end up, and speculation is a poor basis for any sort of argument. In fact, on the subject of twisting position you've been doing exactly that. When you argue against it being new player friendly it's expensive, rare and easily manipulated by cartels with limited supply. But when it comes to this argument it's suddenly worth considering it cheap and plentiful.
As to you're last question, why wouldn't it? The benefits have been presented, allowing progress for effort, and creating engagement in actively progressing a character and allowing a workaround to a flexible character without losing the identity you created. Why wouldn't these have a long term affect for those inclined to participate?
Or are you switching back to the "it's expensive and new players can only participate with real money" argument in the same post you suggest it could reasonably be frivolous? I'm left to guess that's the case considering your remark about parting with cash.
Lastly, no, Eve was never just a function of time. It is a function of skill, knowledge, friends and will. Soon those aspects may have further relevance to the advancement of characters. A scary thought in a game of tenure base SP ranking I know, but I think we can manage. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6861
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 14:52:00 -
[5936] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Lastly, no, Eve was never just a function of time. It is a function of skill, knowledge, friends and will. Soon those aspects may have further relevance to the advancement of characters. A scary thought in a game of tenure base SP ranking I know, but I think we can manage. Yep. This is some "make a trailer about not being able to turn back" and "the empires old guard are losing their grip on power SP gaining"
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Doddy
Esoteric Operations
947
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 19:22:16 -
[5937] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: CCP owns everything, You just have your time investment. .
This is nonsense, and a fallacy you repeat constantly. Your time investment has no bearing on skill training. Only the number of subs you have paid. Somebody could have spent 10 hours total in game since 2003 and have a 250 mil character while somebody else spent 10 hours a day fo rthe last year only has 20mil. There is no time investment in eves skill system beyond however long you take to physically set a skill training.
There is time investment only in the collection of in game items and isk. This has been depreciated by rl money for years through plex, yet i don't see your "down with the plex" threads. instead you are on here bashing something which has no impact on invested time whatsoever.
Basically you are crying that you have spent your money, you don't want anyone else to. Its kind of sad. At least other peoples arguments relate to the health of the game or misuse, yours are based on selfishness. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
286
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 20:36:28 -
[5938] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: CCP owns everything, You just have your time investment. .
This is nonsense, and a fallacy you repeat constantly. Your time investment has no bearing on skill training. Only the number of subs you have paid. Somebody could have spent 10 hours total in game since 2003 and have a 250 mil character while somebody else spent 10 hours a day fo rthe last year only has 20mil. There is no time investment in eves skill system beyond however long you take to physically set a skill training. There is time investment only in the collection of in game items and isk. This has been depreciated by rl money for years through plex, yet i don't see your "down with the plex" threads. instead you are on here bashing something which has no impact on invested time whatsoever. Basically you are crying that you have spent your money, you don't want anyone else to. Its kind of sad. At least other peoples arguments relate to the health of the game or misuse, yours are based on selfishness.
Did i say playtime, No i said time investment learn to read you clown, CCP state that they own everything which is why we cannot sell accounts privately. All your left with is a time investment. This is now being overwritten by being able to buy time chunks to which CCP Hellmar stated:
We also didnGÇÖt do enough to assure you that this wasnGÇÖt the beginning of a GÇ£pay to winGÇ¥ scenario in EVE. Our virtual goods strategy for EVE Online will remain limited in scope and focus on vanity items, or as we said after the CSM visit this summer:
The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.
Is there something in that statement that even a simpleton cannot understand !!!!
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
45
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 21:14:42 -
[5939] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: CCP owns everything, You just have your time investment. .
Snip Basically you are crying that you have spent your money, you don't want anyone else to. Its kind of sad. At least other peoples arguments relate to the health of the game or misuse, yours are based on selfishness.
Talking about the health of the game: TSP use an outside-game item and that affects the PLEX market.
(1) Do you think it will be profitable to farm SP for ISK 5%-10% ROI (Plex bought) or 20-%25% ROI on a main training SP for ISK
(2) Do you think CCP will open the ISK faucets a little to keep PLEX inflation about the same level it is now as opposed to allowing the price of PLEX to inflate (It's 6Bill/Plex on China server) making it much harder to PLEX an account.
YES to both these questions will defiantly change the way I play the game.
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Veraca Darmazaf
EVE University Ivy League
20
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 21:16:15 -
[5940] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: I invest 9.99 each month to get 30 days access - The time investment.
I think your definition if 'time investment' is off, and may be confusing your point. You spend money on the game sub to get the opportunity to invest time, and the opportunity to passively gain SP. Time invested would be time spent interacting with the game on some level, if you spend zero hours on the game in a day then you've invested zero hours.
In other words, the only time invested in something is the time you no longer have to invest in something else.
Edit: I can't say I've invested $10,000 in a car if I get the car without giving up the $10,000. Likewise I can't say I've invested 30 days gaining SP if I still had those 30 days to spend as I wanted while I gained that SP. |
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
286
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 21:30:52 -
[5941] - Quote
Veraca Darmazaf wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: I invest 9.99 each month to get 30 days access - The time investment.
I think your definition if 'time investment' is off, and may be confusing your point. You spend money on the game sub to get the opportunity to invest time, and the opportunity to passively gain SP. Time invested would be time spent interacting with the game on some level, if you spend zero hours on the game in a day then you've invested zero hours. In other words, the only time invested in something is the time you no longer have to invest in something else. Edit: I can't say I've invested $10,000 in a car if I get the car without giving up the $10,000. Likewise I can't say I've invested 30 days gaining SP if I still had those 30 days to spend as I wanted while I gained that SP. That by far is the biggest load of tripe i've seen on here, im still wondering WTF most of it is supposed to even mean. My definition of Time investment is fine, i think even stephen hawkings would be baffled by that load of shite you just typed.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1747
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 21:44:52 -
[5942] - Quote
Veraca Darmazaf wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: I invest 9.99 each month to get 30 days access - The time investment.
I think your definition if 'time investment' is off, and may be confusing your point. You spend money on the game sub to get the opportunity to invest time, and the opportunity to passively gain SP. Time invested would be time spent interacting with the game on some level, if you spend zero hours on the game in a day then you've invested zero hours. In other words, the only time invested in something is the time you no longer have to invest in something else. What he is describing is simply monetary investment. It's a subscription for access and the privileges thereof. The issue is that since the sub buys time to potentially play the game, he and others are conflating buying time with investing time.
That's why they keep using that quote. They refuse to distinguish between paying for a sub and investing time in the game. SP is currently (mostly, there are some active aspects) just a monetary function over uninvested time . Making it something you can purchase in game on the other hand actually encourages investing time in game rather than just a sub price. |
Veraca Darmazaf
EVE University Ivy League
20
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 21:54:54 -
[5943] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: What he is describing is simply monetary investment. It's a subscription for access and the privileges thereof. The issue is that since the sub buys time to potentially play the game, he and others are conflating buying time with investing time.
That's why they keep using that quote. They refuse to distinguish between paying for a sub and investing time in the game. SP is currently (mostly, there are some active aspects) just a monetary function over uninvested time . Making it something you can purchase in game on the other hand actually encourages investing time in game rather than just a sub price. I hoped it was an honest language issue on his part, or failing that he'd take it as an opportunity to switch to a better argument. Alas. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
286
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 21:59:59 -
[5944] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Veraca Darmazaf wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: I invest 9.99 each month to get 30 days access - The time investment.
I think your definition if 'time investment' is off, and may be confusing your point. You spend money on the game sub to get the opportunity to invest time, and the opportunity to passively gain SP. Time invested would be time spent interacting with the game on some level, if you spend zero hours on the game in a day then you've invested zero hours. In other words, the only time invested in something is the time you no longer have to invest in something else. What he is describing is simply monetary investment. It's a subscription for access and the privileges thereof. The issue is that since the sub buys time to potentially play the game, he and others are conflating buying time with investing time. That's why they keep using that quote. They refuse to distinguish between paying for a sub and investing time in the game. SP is currently (mostly, there are some active aspects) just a monetary function over uninvested time . Making it something you can purchase in game on the other hand actually encourages investing time in game rather than just a sub price.
The game as it stands now everyone is created equal ( almost - barring slight deviations with attribs ) You don't benefit in anyway from personal skills to be able to fly anything or doing anything different to the next person. With the exception of them removing the attributes from the game, which does cause a lot of confusion. It wouldn't matter if you could play 10 hours a day only the weekends or 3 hours a week every player gains the same amount skill points so long as they have there 30 days access. That makes this the most balanced field of play in any kind of MMO, Your not driven by any need to grind to progress at any level. What is the problem with that ?
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1747
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 22:01:36 -
[5945] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Talking about the health of the game: TSP use an outside-game item and that affects the PLEX market. I'm confused here, you seem to be calling either AUR or extractors (maybe RL cash?) an "outside-game item" that affects the PLEX market. None of those factors are more or less out of game items than PLEX itself except cash, but cash is already the origin of PLEX.
So what is the out of game item that affects the PLEX market?
Iowa Banshee wrote:(1) Do you think it will be profitable to farm SP for ISK 5%-10% ROI (Plex bought) or 20-%25% ROI on a main training SP for ISK No, but why would SP for isk have a 10%-25% ROI?
Iowa Banshee wrote:(2) Do you think CCP will open the ISK faucets a little to keep PLEX inflation about the same level it is now as opposed to allowing the price of PLEX to inflate (It's 6Bill/Plex on China server) making it much harder to PLEX an account. That seems like it would be counter productive. Increasing isk faucets increases available isk, probably reducing the need for PLEX purchases from CCP from those wanting to earn isk, which means less PLEX in game, with more people having free isk to buy them at the current price point, driving it further up over time.
More isk would increase inflationary effect where near unlimited competition doesn't push prices back down. Since PLEX doesn't have that downward force prices will likely only escalate as isk flowing into the economy does.
Iowa Banshee wrote:YES to both these questions will defiantly change the way I play the game. I can't come to a yes answer for either as presented.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1747
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 22:19:54 -
[5946] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:The game as it stands now everyone is created equal ( almost - barring slight deviations with attribs ) Attributes alone comprise a potential ~30%+ difference in training speed between max and min speeds. That's before implants, which can't be gained through a sub alone save the temporary accelerators.
Levi Belvar wrote:You don't benefit in anyway from personal skills to be able to fly anything or doing anything different to the next person. On skills specifically, the faster I can earn isk, the faster I can get higher level learning implants and afford new skills. Skills I already have and put in use increase my earning capacity towards that end.
This is especially true if I lose pods that I run with implants and the costs of replacement are repeated.
Levi Belvar wrote:With the exception of them removing the attributes from the game, which does cause a lot of confusion. It wouldn't matter if you could play 10 hours a day only the weekends or 3 hours a week every player gains the same amount skill points so long as they have there 30 days access. That makes this the most balanced field of play in any kind of MMO, Your not driven by any need to grind to progress at any level. What is the problem with that ? That it's balanced is an opinion that depends on the idea that actual time investment as well as any portion of skill or cooperation should be nonfactors in character progress.
Even if this came to be Eve would still have it's baseline progress, but limiting it only to that means acknowledging the inverse of this supposed fairness. That the time gate will inherently work against new players because there are benefits more strongly felt in all areas of gameplay except skill training. And since skill training exists ONLY to covey these benefits it makes little sense for it to remain "balanced (read: time locked)" for it's own sake.
It comes back to the question of "Why is it so bad that others may be able to pass your SP even if the gains you've always gotten are still there?" "Why do you think you deserve to progress as fast as everyone else regardless of how and how often you play the game?" |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
45
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 22:43:30 -
[5947] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Talking about the health of the game: TSP use an outside-game item and that affects the PLEX market. I'm confused here, you seem to be calling either AUR or extractors (maybe RL cash?) an "outside-game item" that affects the PLEX market. None of those factors are more or less out of game items than PLEX itself except cash, but cash is already the origin of PLEX. So what is the out of game item that affects the PLEX market? Iowa Banshee wrote:(1) Do you think it will be profitable to farm SP for ISK 5%-10% ROI (Plex bought) or 20-%25% ROI on a main training SP for ISK No, but why would SP for isk have a 10%-25% ROI? Iowa Banshee wrote:(2) Do you think CCP will open the ISK faucets a little to keep PLEX inflation about the same level it is now as opposed to allowing the price of PLEX to inflate (It's 6Bill/Plex on China server) making it much harder to PLEX an account. That seems like it would be counter productive. Increasing isk faucets increases available isk, probably reducing the need for PLEX purchases from CCP from those wanting to earn isk, which means less PLEX in game, with more people having free isk to buy them at the current price point, driving it further up over time. More isk would increase inflationary effect where near unlimited competition doesn't push prices back down. Since PLEX doesn't have that downward force prices will likely only escalate as isk flowing into the economy does. Iowa Banshee wrote:YES to both these questions will defiantly change the way I play the game. I can't come to a yes answer for either as presented.
An example out of an out of game item that affects prices would be multiple training: It can't be built in game so it's an out of game item. Introducing it has an effect on the price of PLEX through adding the function to dual train this increases PLEX demand but there is no ISK generation from in-game construction to compensate the market therefore the faucets have to be adjusted.
(1) Are you saying that to buy multi-training + Extractors (with ISK) to use on a toon to farm SP will not be profitable? Or Are you saying the returns I used are too high & it would it be less than 5%-10% ?
(2) Not sure if the answer you gave means YES the inflation rate will be kept about the same or NO the inflation rate will jump like the China server has.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
286
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 22:58:53 -
[5948] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:It comes back to the question of "Why is it so bad that others may be able to pass your SP even if the gains you've always gotten are still there?" "Why do you think you deserve to progress as fast as everyone else regardless of how and how often you play the game?" Due to my circumstances which i'm not going to explain here by your thinking then seeing as i spend 12 to 14 hrs a day staring at this screen i should be more entitled than most because of how long i can play ?
I have said numerous times that the attribute system and all learning implants could be removed it would lift the lid on the elitist portion of skill points, offering instead a baseline skilling of 3000 per hr to all, then CCP sell for aurum boosters to augment the per hour ratio. Then it is a completely level playing field. I'd like a way that would benefit everyone in game, not certain groups.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1748
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 23:05:10 -
[5949] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:An example out of an out of game item that affects prices would be multiple training: It can't be built in game so it's an out of game item. Introducing it has an effect on the price of PLEX through adding the function to dual train this increases PLEX demand but there is no ISK generation from in-game construction to compensate the market therefore the faucets have to be adjusted. So basically the argument is that PLEX price will increase due to having another use in short? Possible, even probable and likely. But isk generation is there to set the roof price of PLEX. PLEX cannot exceed what it's in game buyers can pay and still function, increasing what they can pay increases the price the market can sustain, thus causing increases in isk generation to just chase resulting increases in PLEX price while ruining everything else in the market.
Iowa Banshee wrote:(1) Are you saying that to buy multi-training + Extractors (with ISK) to use on a toon to farm SP will not be profitable? Or Are you saying the returns I used are too high & it would it be less than 5%-10%? I'm saying we have no way of knowing, but at that rate of return it's not worthwhile to me. That said, if it is worthwhile to you, that doesn't register as an issue to me. Thing is there is the possibility of this working for a loss if several people try to get in on it, so that makes speculation sketchy.
Some people won't need it to pay back the PLEX for instance because they have accounts that aren't currently training but are PLEXing based on other activity. For them any price over the extractor is pure profit (normal ifs and buts apply of course).
Iowa Banshee wrote:(2) Not sure if the answer you gave means YES the inflation rate will be kept about the same or NO the inflation rate will jump like the China server has. If they increase isk faucets PLEX inflation here will likely worsen towards that of Serenity |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1748
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 23:14:09 -
[5950] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:It comes back to the question of "Why is it so bad that others may be able to pass your SP even if the gains you've always gotten are still there?" "Why do you think you deserve to progress as fast as everyone else regardless of how and how often you play the game?" Due to my circumstances which i'm not going to explain here by your thinking then seeing as i spend 12 to 14 hrs a day staring at this screen i should be more entitled than most because of how long i can play ? I have said numerous times that the attribute system and all learning implants could be removed it would lift the lid on the elitist portion of skill points, offering instead a baseline skilling of 3000 per hr to all, then CCP sell for aurum boosters to augment the per hour ratio. Then it is a completely level playing field. I'd like a way that would benefit everyone in game, not certain groups. No, it was level right up until you suggested AUR boosters. That threw that out of the window. RL currency dependance does not create a level playing field. It never will since our economic circumstances as a player base are likely wildly divergent.
As to what you are "entitled" to for playing longer, that's not the implication. The implication is to provide the option to use your gameplay time that way should you chose. Not that more gameplay time doesn't result in more SP with the proposal. Seeking that SP specifically through various means does. So does actively seeking something become an "entitlement?" Especially when it's not at the cost of the passive player's SP gains? And spending time on it and the activity created becomes a detriment?
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
286
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 23:20:50 -
[5951] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:It comes back to the question of "Why is it so bad that others may be able to pass your SP even if the gains you've always gotten are still there?" "Why do you think you deserve to progress as fast as everyone else regardless of how and how often you play the game?" Due to my circumstances which i'm not going to explain here by your thinking then seeing as i spend 12 to 14 hrs a day staring at this screen i should be more entitled than most because of how long i can play ? I have said numerous times that the attribute system and all learning implants could be removed it would lift the lid on the elitist portion of skill points, offering instead a baseline skilling of 3000 per hr to all, then CCP sell for aurum boosters to augment the per hour ratio. Then it is a completely level playing field. I'd like a way that would benefit everyone in game, not certain groups. No, it was level right up until you suggested AUR boosters. That threw that out of the window. RL currency dependance does not create a level playing field. It never will since our economic circumstances as a player base are likely wildly divergent. As to what you are "entitled" to for playing longer, that's not the implication. The implication is to provide the option to use your gameplay time that way should you chose. Not that more gameplay time doesn't result in more SP with the proposal. Seeking that SP specifically through various means does. So does actively seeking something become an "entitlement?" Especially when it's not at the cost of the passive player's SP gains? And spending time on it and the activity created becomes a detriment? You stated that you get aur from plex did you not, so why is this any different than the same methodology for obtaining them for extractors ?
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1748
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 23:23:27 -
[5952] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:You stated that you get aur from plex did you not, so why is this any different than the same methodology for obtaining them for extractors ? Yup, updated accordingly.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
286
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 23:32:02 -
[5953] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:You stated that you get aur from plex did you not, so why is this any different than the same methodology for obtaining them for extractors ? Yup, updated accordingly. It would speed things up if they upped the per hour of skill points, also there is no RMT being added this way.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1748
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 23:35:30 -
[5954] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:It would speed things up if they upped the per hour of skill points, also there is no RMT being added this way. I question the notion there is RMT added with this suggestion, unless you mean to suggest CCP can't track item level RMT, in which case they can't track any RMT that uses items.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
286
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 23:41:15 -
[5955] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:It would speed things up if they upped the per hour of skill points, also there is no RMT being added this way. I question the notion there is RMT added with this suggestion, unless you mean to suggest CCP can't track item level RMT, in which case they can't track any RMT that uses items. a commodity like a TSP would have the atttaction of being sold for real cash, there's plenty of places to get isk and plex's and theres always someone willing to buy it or they wouldnt exist.
Edit: This is a move to get more funding to CCP one way or another they intend to get some extra cash from the players.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1748
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 23:45:08 -
[5956] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:a commodity like a TSP would have the atttaction of being sold for real cash, there's plenty of places to get isk and plex's and theres always someone willing to buy it or they wouldnt exist. A commodity like TSP concentrating RMT makes a great method to filter and catch RMTers if it actually gets them to try. Though why they would go through the effort when they could just sell isk which effectively is TSPs on the market and not create 2 trails of transfers leading to them is beyond me. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
286
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 08:26:19 -
[5957] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:a commodity like a TSP would have the atttaction of being sold for real cash, there's plenty of places to get isk and plex's and theres always someone willing to buy it or they wouldnt exist. A commodity like TSP concentrating RMT makes a great method to filter and catch RMTers if it actually gets them to try. Though why they would go through the effort when they could just sell isk which effectively is TSPs on the market and not create 2 trails of transfers leading to them is beyond me. Levi Belvar wrote:Edit: This is a move to get more funding to CCP one way or another they intend to get some extra cash from the players. Ok, but that doesn't really address the objections to it not being the best way and further just stealing functions already in game just to resell them rather than something new. I suppose when all said and done you have to weigh up the pro's and con's, who it actually benefits the most and what is CCP hoping to achieve. I see this as it stands at present nothing more than a re-skill facility for the mid term players with a minimal loss, numerous ways from RMT to large corp abuse with no benefit to a new player.
I've no problem with giving them more skill points at the start, earning skill points going through the tut's, being able to get a 1 off lump of skill points. Removing attribs ,speeding everything up, implants to boost sp/h, even something created to give players a small percentage re-skill ability which could be on a timer. All things that speed the game up for everyone, benefit all from start to end and nothing open to misuse in anyway.
Even the TSP itself if CCP were to sell it for $-ú / aurum, then its not open to misuse - I dont like it but then the players who need it most would have access to it.
My motives are nothing to do with selfishness what so ever, i hope they get it right from the off and not open a door that can never be shut heading the wrong way.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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nikar galvren
Hedion University Amarr Empire
56
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 18:08:33 -
[5958] - Quote
Arguments in favor of the proposed system:
1) Newbro's can skill up quicker than the old system allowed, potentially increasing retention rates (as frustration over wait-to-finish-training situations decrease).
2) The OCD among us can clean up all those skill points that we 'wasted' on XYZ skill that we never use.
3) CCP, as a company, get an influx of revenue from the additional transactions. This allows them to work on other projects and better secure the company against single-revenue-stream failure scenarios. This is a very real and very compelling argument, as I would love to see CCP still around and still going strong in another 12 years.
Full disclosure: Many times, I've wished that I could just drop a few dollars into CCP's wallet and get a chunk of SP to finish training XYZ skill. However, I recognize that this would quickly devolve into a pay-to-win scenario, where I would rapidly fall behind those with deep, deep pockets. The only saving grace for Eve is that SP numbers do not translate into ability very well. I may have perfect Carrier skills, but if I've never undocked one, then my survival rate still isn't very good. (Could lead to some funny ALOD's too...)
Argument against the new system:
1) Eve is (supposedly) Real. When it comes to internet-spaceships, this statement reduces to the assertion that Eve is a game where your decisions have consequences. The other 'Real' aspect of Eve that gets touted often is that it is a game about relationships more than it is about skills. In that context, consequences only really matter when they affect relationships.
Awox a bunch of ships? You just pissed off a lot of people who probably won't forget about it for a long time. Corp-thief? All that, and good luck ever getting promoted in a new corp. Known (or suspected) spai? Good luck getting into a new corp.
The proposed system negates the consequence that should attend these behaviors. Don't want to be remembered as an Awoxer? Simple. Roll a new toon and pay a few PLEX to transfer over the 'time-investment' before biomassing the toon with the bad rep. Proceed to apply to new corp and Awox again, WHILE DENYING YOUR TARGET ANY ABILITY TO PERFORM DUE DILIGENCE TO PROTECT THEMSELVES, as the new toon is guaranteed to have a clean character reputation. This, imo, is the primary, and possibly only, argument against the proposed system.
-- (Please Note: I'm not against Awoxing/Ganking/Stealing/Espionage as in-game activities, I just strongly believe that you should have to deal with the consequences.)
"But wait!" You say. "How is this any different than the hypothetical Awoxer just buying a new toon off the character bazaar?" Simple. Kil2/CCP Logibro's experience, as stated in the associated Dev Blog gives the answer:
"I also found out, after the fact, that Kil2 had been involved in some kind of corp theft which meant I had to deal with negative reputation issues for years afterwards." - CCP Logibro
The ability to pay a couple of Dollars/Euros to acquire a new toon currently does not (and I believe, should not) also grant the ability to guarantee divorcement from consequences, even if the actions that incurred the consequences were perpetrated by another player.
"But I just bought the toon from the bazaar! I shouldn't have to deal with it's history too!" I believe that this is the point where I pull out the good 'ol "HTFU." You chose to purchase a character, and that character comes with a history. Buyer beware. Consequence.
In Eve, you consent to PVP by undocking. In Eve, you consent to building a reputation, and dealing with others on the basis of that reputation, by logging in. To change this is to decouple Eve from the only thing that anchors it to reality, from the only game mechanic that provides an "Eve is Real" experience.
TLDR; If CCP started selling SP for AUR, I would die a little inside, but might not stop playing (pay-to-win makes me cry, but I understand the draw of the business model) since I recognize that raw SP doesn't correlate to 'in-game ability,' only 'options available.'
If they give the players the ability to 'liquidate' a toon while avoiding the consequence of that action, then the game that I know and love has lost it's heart and soul, and can no longer claim in any way to be "Real." |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 04:02:28 -
[5959] - Quote
nikar galvren wrote:Arguments in favor of the proposed system: -- (Please Note: I'm not against Awoxing/Ganking/Stealing/Espionage as in-game activities, I just strongly believe that you should have to deal with the consequences.) "But wait!" You say. "How is this any different than the hypothetical Awoxer just buying a new toon off the character bazaar?" Simple. Kil2/CCP Logibro's experience, as stated in the associated Dev Blog gives the answer: "I also found out, after the fact, that Kil2 had been involved in some kind of corp theft which meant I had to deal with negative reputation issues for years afterwards." - CCP Logibro
what? so the seller of a character who recycles a slot by selling the character and washes hands laughing after the "deed" can move on without consequences and buy a new character is your idea of suffering the consequences?!.... while also trashing the next owners reputation? lol wow your logic is impeccable.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
295
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 07:33:41 -
[5960] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:nikar galvren wrote:Arguments in favor of the proposed system: -- (Please Note: I'm not against Awoxing/Ganking/Stealing/Espionage as in-game activities, I just strongly believe that you should have to deal with the consequences.) "But wait!" You say. "How is this any different than the hypothetical Awoxer just buying a new toon off the character bazaar?" Simple. Kil2/CCP Logibro's experience, as stated in the associated Dev Blog gives the answer: "I also found out, after the fact, that Kil2 had been involved in some kind of corp theft which meant I had to deal with negative reputation issues for years afterwards." - CCP Logibro what? so the seller of a character who recycles a slot by selling the character and washes hands laughing after the "deed" can move on without consequences and buy a new character is your idea of suffering the consequences?!.... while also trashing the next owners reputation? lol wow your logic is impeccable. Why don't you try reading it again so you'll see the part you quote is in the : Argument against the new system
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
35
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Posted - 2015.11.28 10:38:28 -
[5961] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Why don't you try reading it again so you'll see the part you quote is in the : Argument against the new system
..... yes exactly.
Just to be clear I am in favor of the new system, and every single argument against it can be refuted in 140 characters or less. Want proof? List the reasons you feel are valid against the new SP trade and I will respond after a nap.
:ps I can see how my fail quote snip suggests the opposite, meant to trim that line as well, but my response still stands, the "Con" crowd keep bringing up the "consequences" argument when in reality there is less with the current system then the new one. |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
296
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 12:38:02 -
[5962] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Why don't you try reading it again so you'll see the part you quote is in the : Argument against the new system ..... yes exactly. Just to be clear I am in favor of the new system, and every single argument against it can be refuted in 140 characters or less. Want proof? List the reasons you feel are valid against the new SP trade and I will respond after a nap. :ps I can see how my fail quote snip suggests the opposite, meant to trim that line as well, but my response still stands, the "Con" crowd keep bringing up the "consequences" argument when in reality there is less with the current system then the new one. If there is no problem with the TSP let CCP do it directly, It is not open to abuse from anything that way and everyone will be able to have access to it 100% without having to join / gauged on price / held over in anyway.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
35
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Posted - 2015.11.28 18:31:47 -
[5963] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: If there is no problem with the TSP let CCP do it directly, It is not open to abuse from anything that way and everyone will be able to have access to it 100% without having to join / gauged on price / held over in anyway.
If - anything - anyway........ words without weight.
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
297
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Posted - 2015.11.28 22:24:52 -
[5964] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Levi Belvar wrote: If there is no problem with the TSP let CCP do it directly, It is not open to abuse from anything that way and everyone will be able to have access to it 100% without having to join / gauged on price / held over in anyway.
If - anything - anyway........ words without weight. Yet another lame excuse for an answer.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Hargante
Hargantiyan
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.29 21:23:41 -
[5965] - Quote
[left][b]stop whining there is no different from character bazaar and this, at least this will be popular then character bazaar i just hope it will be specific skill demand will be high if it is allocated skill so the price will rise but if it is specific skill some skills like mining will be sold a lot and after awhile those skills will be over supplied and become cheap if most start mining ore then ore will be cheaper no longer will every one want to mine and the over supply of mining skills will fix it self in time . |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2015.11.29 22:53:12 -
[5966] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img] The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside. Please also read this reminder on our forum rules ~ ISD Decoy
can't believe for the passed weeks that none of the dev team at CCP have not even replyed to this dev blog what so ever, would be nice to have a message or a post regarding this dev blog as we are your paying customers.
just looks kinda of bad to the paying player base that if ccp can not be bothered to reply to its loyal paying customers, who are paying a sub each month, without a paying customers would put ccp out of business |
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 01:09:55 -
[5967] - Quote
Suede wrote: can't believe for the passed weeks that none of the dev team at CCP have not even replyed to this dev blog what so ever, would be nice to have a message or a post regarding this dev blog as we are your paying customers.
just looks kinda of bad to the paying player base that if ccp can not be bothered to reply to its loyal paying customers, who are paying a sub each month, without a paying customers would put ccp out of business
I'm not even a little surprised...
SOP |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
46
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 20:03:48 -
[5968] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Why don't you try reading it again so you'll see the part you quote is in the : Argument against the new system ..... yes exactly. Just to be clear I am in favor of the new system, and every single argument against it can be refuted in 140 characters or less. Want proof? List the reasons you feel are valid against the new SP trade and I will respond after a nap. :ps I can see how my fail quote snip suggests the opposite, meant to trim that line as well, but my response still stands, the "Con" crowd keep bringing up the "consequences" argument when in reality there is less with the current system then the new one.
Stagnation: If you could play for free & not bother training would you ?
I have 2 subscriptions with characters @ 49/24/27 Mill SP & 45/20/18 Mill SP.
Training Acct 1 main for a carrier pilot, 2nd Scanning/ Pi, 3rd industrial / market seller Training Acct 2 main for industrial command (already a booster, 2nd & 3rd scanning / Pi alts)
Since they were introduced I have always used 1 multi-train per month (bought with ISK at the market) - and - in addition about every 2 -3 months I dual training on my 2nd account.
- I don't need really a carrier pilot it's just something I want to achieve - I'm in WH space & happy where I am. - My pi Alts are good enough at their jobs - I don't need an industrial command to be in a Rorqual - If I was moving to low or null sec but for the WH an orca will do.
If it is possible to farm SP at a profit (say 10% return - market forces dictate that they need to make a profit for anyone to sell them). With TSP income and what I make in WH space - I will be able to play the game for free.
Of course I don't want to stagnate or actually give up my training goals BUT this may give me a better goal... and playing for free may make stagnation a sweet alternative to continual training.
Just one step towards the ultimate aim of any free to play financial model - getting the players to pay for progression.
Pay To WIn :
I would prefer
-- If you don't like the bazaar - sell a $40 item to package an alt for sale on the market -- Think newbies need to train faster - introduce boosters with diminishing return -- Upset with your past training choices - sell a $20 item for remapping
Don't make the effort of gaining skills worthless by selling skill points.
I don't want TSP as proposed because it will fundamentally change core gameplay features please don't make a system where I can buy as many SP as I want and just pay to win.
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Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 20:21:51 -
[5969] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Stagnation: If you could play for free & not bother training would you ?
I could play for free right now and avoid training skills if I bought a character of the bazar.
Iowa Banshee wrote:
I have 2 subscriptions with characters @ 49/24/27 Mill SP & 45/20/18 Mill SP.
Training Acct 1 main for a carrier pilot, 2nd Scanning/ Pi, 3rd industrial / market seller Training Acct 2 main for industrial command (already a booster, 2nd & 3rd scanning / Pi alts)
Since they were introduced I have always used 1 multi-train per month (bought with ISK at the market) - and - in addition about every 2 -3 months I dual training on my 2nd account.
- I don't need really a carrier pilot it's just something I want to achieve - I'm in WH space & happy where I am. - My pi Alts are good enough at their jobs - I don't need an industrial command to be in a Rorqual - If I was moving to low or null sec but for the WH an orca will do.
Ok, I dual train one at least one account and pay CCP directly for aurum, what is your point?
Iowa Banshee wrote: If it is possible to farm SP at a profit (say 10% return - market forces dictate that they need to make a profit for anyone to sell them). With TSP income and what I make in WH space - I will be able to play the game for free.
Of course I don't want to stagnate or actually give up my training goals BUT this may give me a better goal... and playing for free may make stagnation a sweet alternative to continual training.
Just one step towards the ultimate aim of any free to play financial model - getting the players to pay for progression.
Skills are being farmed for profit trough the bazar, TSP is only going to make it more accessible.
Iowa Banshee wrote: Pay To WIn :
I would prefer
-- If you don't like the bazaar - sell a $40 item to package an alt for sale on the market -- Think newbies need to train faster - introduce boosters with diminishing return -- Upset with your past training choices - sell a $20 item for remapping
Don't make the effort of gaining skills worthless by selling skill points.
I don't want TSP as proposed because it will fundamentally change core gameplay features please don't make a system where I can buy as many SP as I want and just pay to win.
You cant buy as much as you want, you can only buy as much as it is available and as much as you can afford. And if skill points are worthless then why would anyone sell them?
Do you have any more ambiguous assertions? |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 21:04:08 -
[5970] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Suede wrote: can't believe for the passed weeks that none of the dev team at CCP have not even replyed to this dev blog what so ever, would be nice to have a message or a post regarding this dev blog as we are your paying customers.
just looks kinda of bad to the paying player base that if ccp can not be bothered to reply to its loyal paying customers, who are paying a sub each month, without a paying customers would put ccp out of business
I'm not even a little surprised... SOP
Make me think to why CCP even posts dev blogs at all, Why post a dev blog if CCP cant not be bothered to reply to it just feel very much to me that CCP are not listening to players properly regarding any dev blog they post .
|
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
46
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 21:11:44 -
[5971] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:
Stagnation: If you could play for free & not bother training would you ?
I could play for free right now and avoid training skills if I bought a character of the bazar. Iowa Banshee wrote:
I have 2 subscriptions with characters @ 49/24/27 Mill SP & 45/20/18 Mill SP.
Training Acct 1 main for a carrier pilot, 2nd Scanning/ Pi, 3rd industrial / market seller Training Acct 2 main for industrial command (already a booster, 2nd & 3rd scanning / Pi alts)
Since they were introduced I have always used 1 multi-train per month (bought with ISK at the market) - and - in addition about every 2 -3 months I dual training on my 2nd account.
- I don't need really a carrier pilot it's just something I want to achieve - I'm in WH space & happy where I am. - My pi Alts are good enough at their jobs - I don't need an industrial command to be in a Rorqual - If I was moving to low or null sec but for the WH an orca will do.
Ok, I dual train one at least one account and pay CCP directly for aurum, what is your point? Iowa Banshee wrote: If it is possible to farm SP at a profit (say 10% return - market forces dictate that they need to make a profit for anyone to sell them). With TSP income and what I make in WH space - I will be able to play the game for free.
Of course I don't want to stagnate or actually give up my training goals BUT this may give me a better goal... and playing for free may make stagnation a sweet alternative to continual training.
Just one step towards the ultimate aim of any free to play financial model - getting the players to pay for progression.
Skills are being farmed for profit trough the bazar, TSP is only going to make it more accessible. Iowa Banshee wrote: Pay To WIn :
I would prefer
-- If you don't like the bazaar - sell a $40 item to package an alt for sale on the market -- Think newbies need to train faster - introduce boosters with diminishing return -- Upset with your past training choices - sell a $20 item for remapping
Don't make the effort of gaining skills worthless by selling skill points.
I don't want TSP as proposed because it will fundamentally change core gameplay features please don't make a system where I can buy as many SP as I want and just pay to win.
You cant buy as much as you want, you can only buy as much as it is available and as much as you can afford. And if skill points are worthless then why would anyone sell them? Do you have any more ambiguous assertions?
In answer to your replies -
1) Why would you need to buy a toon from the Bazaar to farm it for SP - You just have to be prepared not to progress from the skill point you have reached (stagnate)
2) I was Illustrating how I would still buy the dual training but use them to farm SP off my ALTs (then they would stagnate)
3) At the Bazaar SP are NOT sold, whole characters with SP are - if you really want to make buying easier create a toon packager that would allow the character to be traded on the market in game - that much more accessible.
4) If I intend to farm SP for profit then it's a good bet that many others will do the same - This may be an "ambiguous assertion" or to be correct "an appeal to an anonymous authority" but as I said I think making a profit & saving real life monies will encourage lots of producers. Market forces will balance things out - SO - there will be as many as I want to buy as long as I have money to do so - That's ISK or REAL-LIFE money - and that's PAY TO WIN
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Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 22:03:35 -
[5972] - Quote
@Iowa Banshee
For the sake of readability I am not going to quote the wall of text, assume I did.
1) We are not on the same page on this topic, I don't understand what you were trying to say I guess.
2) Ok, this point I consider a benefit, and exactly what I would do if TSP go live.
What people choose to ignore is the massive benefit for CCP trough this system. Currently a trade on bazar is payed for with a plex, so they get 15-20$ somewhere in the transaction. Money for CCP = good for EvE. But this is all they get / transaction, regardless of the characters SP's.
With TSP for each 500k SP CCP will receive 1/3 +/- of a plex. Considering the average SP a character has on the bazar is somewhere between 5m and 15m SP CCP will get paid a lot more for the same amount of SP transaction. It doesn't matter if the person buying SP uses ISK or personal wealth, somewhere in the chain CCP does get paid.
3) I don't want to make character buying easy, I would prefer to get rid of it. "Choices and consequences" argument, I find it absurd that a pilot can double dip after a scam and make a profit again by selling the character and have zero consequences after committing a "crime". Scamming is fine, AWOXING is fine, but how many posts argue this eliminates consequences when in fact it strengthens it?!
4) Define WIN in eve, then I can respond to this point.
NOTE: it's worth about 1/3 of a plex for CCP, that's more then worthless, no? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1750
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 23:29:41 -
[5973] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:4) If I intend to farm SP for profit then it's a good bet that many others will do the same - This may be an "ambiguous assertion" or to be correct "an appeal to an anonymous authority" but as I said I think making a profit & saving real life monies will encourage lots of producers. Market forces will balance things out - SO - there will be as many as I want to buy as long as I have money to do so - That's ISK or REAL-LIFE money - and that's PAY TO WIN You can buy things in game so therefore the game is pay to win? Or is it SP specifically and we just went back into "SP is winning" and further advocating the ideal of sub time alone being deserving of "victory"? |
joehillbilly
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 07:48:51 -
[5974] - Quote
I have been listening to the meta on podcasts. I did a quick search for the aurum protests. I had one hit on the search from 2011.
I remember well the outrage at the idea that aurum might be used to buy SP. There were protests at all of the trade hubs. It took me 15 minutes of constant jump button pushing to get through the gate into Jita. I ended up salvaging at Amarr. I had to turn off almost all graphics functions (almost like playing jet on commodore 64). I was getting many thank yous in system for helpiing to reduce lag. I got a free pass for salvaging as ships were destroyed around me for salvaging. Ships were self destructing everywhere. Ships were being destroyed everywhere. Millions of volleys were fired at the monument in amarr, myself included.
The CEO of CCP apologized and retracted the program for a good amount of time. The only thing you could get with aurum was clothes and goggles. Now, with the "new" generation of gamers; they get many perks that got new players dead when I started.
Myself I was totally taken aback with the iteron changes. I had trained an awful long time for a newb to get gallente industrial 5 so my corp could mine more efficiently without cans being stolen or expiring. The new system put you in an iteron that could carry more ore with basic rigs and modules than a tech 2 rigged and tech 2 moduled iteron 5. something like 60 days shot in the ass.
The great equalizer had been training time. Now, well, the only equalizer is how many plex you have or can purchase. The last I heard CCP plans to implement this program. A great feeling of accomplishment is lost. I was extremely proud of how i managed to minimize lost training time. My SP is very high compared to players with similar time in game. I spent a large portion of my isk having a clone with lvl 5 learning implants. I spent a lot of time grinding missions trying to improve my standings, simply for a clone. I learned about estell arador corp after having greater than 9 with several agents to only reach 6 with the factions. I even ran numerous cosmos missions. Now clones are free to anyone anywhere
When I started i had to be able to make enough isk to buy training to train for pvp. I didn't know about plex, wouldn't have been able to afford it, unfortunatly. There was a whole short term long term training program to be able to afford to stay in the game. Imagine my surprise when I realised that "gun mining" in missions made more minerals faster than mining at my level of training. many level 3's and 4's were run to simply salvage them. Had to train diplomacy so i wouldn't get killed in amarr space. Ironically apanake was my home system, lol.
All of these changes allow very new players to attain levels that would have taken older players years to attain. I didn't understand the term bitter vet until selling SP for in essence aurum is being actively pushed again and surprisingly supported by a lot of players. It sounds like eve has a large turnover of players or a lot of "DILIGAF" type players.
I disagree at many levels with this program. I understand the need for new players to keep the game going. I wonder how many old guys have left. I wonder how these changes have influenced what would have been "lifers" in the game.
I could have saved almost 360 dollars in subscription fees if i'd waited 2 years to start playing,
The better corps used to have 50, 60, 85 million SP requirements just to apply. That meant they had at least a few years in game. Now a player could attain the same level of effective SP in about 2 less years.
Many of the players I know, that started at a similar time, have stopped logging on. I have made some new friends and this in no way reflects on them. The many hours/years of comradery are lost due to the changes that have diminished their sense of accomplishment. Some stopped logging in as enough of their friends have been absent. We have a chat in game that stays open and only has one person in it at a time or is empty.
Mike Azaria's school bus and similar efforts allow the equalizer of training time to stay in place and offer new players an opportunity to have more "experience" sooner. That is fellowship and encourages the cooperation social side of the game.
I've taken too much time on this. I can only hope the powers that be read this and it somehow change their paradigm to remember the great aurum protest and find other methods. Mike Azariah, and others whose names i don't remember at this time, have shown insight and offered examples.
I am new in my current corp and it in no way speaks of or for them. This is my personal opinion, it is influenced by the many pilots I have encountered, flown against or with over the last 4 1/2 years.
Fly smart, when safe isn't an option. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6861
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 08:07:48 -
[5975] - Quote
joehillbilly wrote:The many hours/years of comradery are lost Ouch, I feel sorry that you have to reevaluate your previous lifestyle outcomes
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 08:37:37 -
[5976] - Quote
joehillbilly wrote:
The great equalizer had been training time. Now, well, the only equalizer is how many plex you have or can purchase. The last I heard CCP plans to implement this program. A great feeling of accomplishment is lost. I was extremely proud of how i managed to minimize lost training time. My SP is very high compared to players with similar time in game. I spent a large portion of my isk having a clone with lvl 5 learning implants. I spent a lot of time grinding missions trying to improve my standings, simply for a clone. I learned about estell arador corp after having greater than 9 standings with several agents to only reach 6 with the factions. I even ran numerous cosmos missions. Now clones are free to anyone anywhere
So how do you feel about the character bazaar? |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 10:52:37 -
[5977] - Quote
joehillbilly wrote:I have been listening to the meta on podcasts. I did a quick search for the aurum protests. I had one hit on the search from 2011.
I remember well the outrage at the idea that aurum might be used to buy SP. There were protests at all of the trade hubs. It took me 15 minutes of constant jump button pushing to get through the gate into Jita. I ended up salvaging at Amarr. I had to turn off almost all graphics functions (almost like playing jet on commodore 64). I was getting many thank yous in system for helpiing to reduce lag. I got a free pass for salvaging as ships were destroyed around me. Ships were self destructing everywhere. Ships were being destroyed everywhere. Millions of volleys were fired at the monument in amarr, myself included. I saw mining ships appear to be mining the monument. There were rumors of a titan in Jita. Both related to how over loaded the servers were.
The CEO of CCP apologized and retracted the program for a good amount of time. The only thing you could get with aurum was clothes and goggles. Now, with the "new" generation of gamers; they get many perks that got new players dead when I started.
Fly smart, when safe isn't an option.
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf
Microtransactions and 'monocle-gate'
The development difficulties were only part of the Incarna problem. According to sources, CCP management had decided to introduce microtransactions, unbeknownst to most of the rank and file, charging real money for cosmetic items with which to customise character avatars. This is a familiar feature in online games, but usually a new outfit for a player character will cost $15-20. CCP decided to charge much more. The most notorious example was a monocle costing $70. The price tag infuriated fans kick-starting a major pricing controversy that would go on to become known as Monocle-gate.
The CEO had members of the fiction writing team put the apology together - he was either so out of touch, so arrogant, that he couldnGÇÖt find the words himself
Eventually CEO Hilmar Veigar P+¬tursson issued an apology to the players. But even this short appeasement wasnGÇÖt what it seemed; according to Blood, Petursson didnGÇÖt actually write it.
GÇ£He had members of our storyline team GÇô a group responsible for writing in-game content and fiction GÇô put it together,GÇ¥ he says. GÇ£He was either so out of touch, so arrogant, or perhaps both, that he couldnGÇÖt find the words to say himself. They bailed him out big time.GÇ¥ |
Kia Lafemme2
DEFCON 5. Defenders Of EVE Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 11:38:09 -
[5978] - Quote
Hate the idea. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6861
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 13:19:50 -
[5979] - Quote
joehillbilly wrote:I spent a large portion of my isk having a clone with lvl 5 learning implants. I spent a lot of time grinding missions trying to improve my standings, simply for a clone. I learned about estell arador corp after having greater than 9 standings with several agents to only reach 6 with the factions. I even ran numerous cosmos missions. Now clones are free to anyone anywhere You want the estell arador people to get nuked so you can feel the achievement?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
250
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 15:12:07 -
[5980] - Quote
joehillbilly wrote: I spent a large portion of my isk having a clone with lvl 5 learning implants. I spent a lot of time grinding missions trying to improve my standings, simply for a clone. I learned about estell arador corp after having greater than 9 standings with several agents to only reach 6 with the factions. I even ran numerous cosmos missions. Now clones are free to anyone anywhere
You only ever needed corp standings to get jump clones faction was not needed (only gave more options for what stations they where available at)
As long as you where not shoot on sight povi null sec was a place one could make clones with out standing.
and I hope 200-400 million isk isn't a large portion of your isk amount if you really ran missions for that long. |
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
48
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 15:58:41 -
[5981] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:@Iowa Banshee
For the sake of readability I am not going to quote the wall of text, assume I did.
1) We are not on the same page on this topic, I don't understand what you were trying to say I guess.
2) Ok, this point I consider a benefit, and exactly what I would do if TSP go live.
What people choose to ignore is the massive benefit for CCP trough this system. Currently a trade on bazar is payed for with a plex, so they get 15-20$ somewhere in the transaction. Money for CCP = good for EvE. But this is all they get / transaction, regardless of the characters SP's.
With TSP for each 500k SP CCP will receive 1/3 +/- of a plex. Considering the average SP a character has on the bazar is somewhere between 5m and 15m SP CCP will get paid a lot more for the same amount of SP transaction. It doesn't matter if the person buying SP uses ISK or personal wealth, somewhere in the chain CCP does get paid.
3) I don't want to make character buying easy, I would prefer to get rid of it. "Choices and consequences" argument, I find it absurd that a pilot can double dip after a scam and make a profit again by selling the character and have zero consequences after committing a "crime". Scamming is fine, AWOXING is fine, but how many posts argue this eliminates consequences when in fact it strengthens it?!
4) Define WIN in eve, then I can respond to this point.
NOTE: it's worth about 1/3 of a plex for CCP, that's more then worthless, no?
1) Are we on the same topic? - You asked for a downside I gave one. You said you would reply in 140 characters and didn't
2) If CCP wants more money - just say we need more money & up the cost of subscriptions/Plex
3) I have no complaint about character selling - just Skill Point selling
4) That's "pay to win" - saying define 'win' is meaningless when it has an alternate meaning when referring to a games financial model.
Name a single* in-game item that gives advantage that cannot be bought with ISK/Cash other than Skill Points -- When you can buy SP the game will become Pay To Win
[ Don't say buy a toon at Bazaar --> It's out of game, It's a salve to stop out of game account purchases, It replaces an ALT, it's not multiple packets of SP and it has a hard limit on the number of SP it could have acquired over its life ]
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
48
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 16:43:03 -
[5982] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:4) If I intend to farm SP for profit then it's a good bet that many others will do the same - This may be an "ambiguous assertion" or to be correct "an appeal to an anonymous authority" but as I said I think making a profit & saving real life monies will encourage lots of producers. Market forces will balance things out - SO - there will be as many as I want to buy as long as I have money to do so - That's ISK or REAL-LIFE money - and that's PAY TO WIN You can buy things in game so therefore the game is pay to win? Or is it SP specifically and we just went back into "SP is winning" and further advocating the ideal of sub time alone being deserving of "victory"?
Yes it is SP specifically: Not the whole package of SP wrapped in a character that will replace one of your alts. Not the imaginary SP that you seem to think are tied to winning - remember experience is not tied to SP But the SP that are the only thing preventing real life money being the deciding factor on in game advantage.
You can buy everything in the game EXCEPT Skill Points -- That's the Point of ALL the Con arguments referring to Pay 2 Win
You can talk about sub time/ deserving victory / SP is winning / Bazaar purchases / experience over SP --- it doesn't matter -- if you don't get that its about letting go of the only non-tradable item that is preventing anyone from buying EVERYTHING needed for advantage you will never get it. |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 17:14:14 -
[5983] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:4) If I intend to farm SP for profit then it's a good bet that many others will do the same - This may be an "ambiguous assertion" or to be correct "an appeal to an anonymous authority" but as I said I think making a profit & saving real life monies will encourage lots of producers. Market forces will balance things out - SO - there will be as many as I want to buy as long as I have money to do so - That's ISK or REAL-LIFE money - and that's PAY TO WIN You can buy things in game so therefore the game is pay to win? Or is it SP specifically and we just went back into "SP is winning" and further advocating the ideal of sub time alone being deserving of "victory"? Yes it is SP specifically: Not the whole package of SP wrapped in a character that will replace one of your alts. Not the imaginary SP that you seem to think are tied to winning - remember experience is not tied to SP But the SP that are the only thing preventing real life money being the deciding factor on in game advantage. You can buy everything in the game EXCEPT Skill Points -- That's the Point of ALL the Con arguments referring to Pay 2 Win You can talk about sub time/ deserving victory / SP is winning / Bazaar purchases / experience over SP --- it doesn't matter -- if you don't get that its about letting go of the only non-tradable item that is preventing anyone from buying EVERYTHING needed for advantage you will never get it.
Ok it's clear to me now, you are wrong. |
Escobar Sr
Gang Bang You're Dead Happy Cartel
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 18:08:08 -
[5984] - Quote
So, to get things straight, as most people who are against this put it:
- If I, a new EvE player who tried it in Trial, decide to cash my account with @500$ in plex, sell and get +-25B in ISK, go on the Bazaar and buy a 50Mil SP toon, it's okay. Even if it has a bad reputation etc, even if I don't know wtf I'm doing in a ship, for everybody who'll see me behind that Chart, it's okay. For a few weeks/months, until everybody acknowledges the new Owner, it's okay. - EvE online, through the eyes of one of my best friend is exactly like this:
"You don't need to harvest experience from game, you just need some ISK from time to time to afford ships and modules and implants and whatnot, but besides that, your game presence is not needed. You can PLEX for 2 Years straight, and come back from time to time to check your Skill Queue to have something in there. EvE Online is not like any other RPG in which you must grind, like WoW for example. In WoW, with boosts, you can reach max level in less than one week. You can get the gear you like, it gives you the awesome feeling of being able to do everything. Until... Until you reach specific raids and dungeons. In there you see who knows what and who's Daddy's Boy/Girl."
- Even if CCP implement this TSP stuff, there is one thing they won't be able to sell for Money, Plex, ISK, AUR, which is game experience. An old player will know what a ship is capable of, bait fits, troll fits, good fits, bad fits etc, will know what rewards does a complex yield, will know which rats trigger the next spawn, will know relic sites are better than data sites, will know when to de-aggro and save his ship, will know when to use a Booster, and many other examples. Game experience is the most important part, compared to whatever you will imply being pay to win. As a matter of fact, I would love to see some EvE Leeroy Jenkins here, just to prove a point.
- Instead of implementing TSP, why not give implants that give a certain amount of attributes, for a specific amount of time, for a specific account. Kinda like when I made my account. I received an Implant that gave me +17 to all attributes, the Advanced Cerebral Accelerator. Was gaining SP like crazy. Instead of making this 7 days, why not making the same as for Skill packets, based on the total skill points trained before consumption:
0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = Implant of +17 until 5mil SPs 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = Implant of +14 until 50 Mil SPs 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = Implant of +11 until 80 Mil SPs > 80 million skillpoints = Implant of +7 (like the Elite ones released couple years ago) until further notice
In my honest opinion, this would make things easier and will solve many complaints. Just like in real life (as some may say), if you did wrong, it's forgiven but not forgot. |
joehillbilly
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 19:50:38 -
[5985] - Quote
Alavaria Fera, 1 To frame an argument, does not imply regret. Disappointment, yes. 1) Estel Arador was a unique solution within the game dynamic that could have been implemented at a much earlier time. For whatever reason, it was not.
Rat Scout, Never liked it. Unfortunately, it was a rational response to real RMT issues. Don't know a better solution. It appears that people buying characters in the bazaar are older more experienced pilots. The people I know in game that do buy characters were in several years before buying additional characters.
Suede, I sincerely appreciate the details. Could not find anything in here. I only went on what I remembered other pilots talking about at the time. Didn't know about a lot of out of game resources at the time.
Lady Rift, I had started running navy missions for gallente before I understood faction standings. Switched to sisters and trained diploamcy. Cosmos missions helped some. At that time, I did not know about the provi options.
I am glad that so much discussion is being had on this topic. The jump timer rules were changed because of large discussions like this one. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1750
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 19:53:01 -
[5986] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Yes it is SP specifically: Not the whole package of SP wrapped in a character that will replace one of your alts. Not the imaginary SP that you seem to think are tied to winning - remember experience is not tied to SP So what's the problem then? Since you've taken the initiative to make this claim despite knowing it's a false representation of my position, lets have you justify it. You kinda need to since you just did the opposite. You just said they aren't winning, but defined this as pay to win. Make up your mind or justify how buying an aspect that doesn't convey victory is paying to win.
Iowa Banshee wrote:But the SP that are the only thing preventing real life money being the deciding factor on in game advantage. Bullshit. Money was never not the deciding factor. SP comes from paid accounts. Non-paid accounts can't generate it. The longer you've had your money put into accessing the game (or in the case of PLEX someone else') the more potential SP you have. My advantage over a new player is 5 years worth of sub price.
Iowa Banshee wrote:You can buy everything in the game EXCEPT Skill Points -- That's the Point of ALL the Con arguments referring to Pay 2 Win And the point of all the Pro comments in opposition to that reasoning is that your justification is a self serving twist of facts trying to make this P2W apply selectively to this idea but somehow not to:
1) Veteran players with the advantages of SP, which are definitively characterized as winning 2) The fact that money does and has for some time equaled sp due to needing an active sub to accrue it
Iowa Banshee wrote:You can talk about sub time/ deserving victory / SP is winning / Bazaar purchases / experience over SP --- it doesn't matter -- if you don't get that its about letting go of the only non-tradable item that is preventing anyone from buying EVERYTHING needed for advantage you will never get it. There is nothing to get beyond realizing that some people don't want their veteran ivory towers to be encroached by others who haven't waited years for reasons that have no justification besides "it's always been that way." They'll gloss over, as you just did, the fact that those advantages are a) not insurmountable, else the SP system would in itself be gamebreaking to begin with, and b) open to anyone who had a desire and will to take advantage of the game's isk earning avenues to eliminate any real money need.
SP is only immutable because the current rules make it so, not because it needs to be in order to function. If you don't believe SP is winning, you're holding on to a justification that holds no weight. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1750
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 20:25:50 -
[5987] - Quote
Actually lets just simplify the questions a bit on this pay to win thing:
How is it ok for vets to have experience and SP while on the same field as new players with neither, but only allow those new players the ability to actively seek parity in one of those two aspects?
If that's acceptable doesn't that basically state SP isn't so important as to need the special "protection" of being time gate only?
If not acceptable, why would we argue so hard to maintain that dynamic?
For me the current dynamic is acceptable. I DO NOT see SP as winning. As a result I don't see an issue with someone having more SP because:
a) They bought PLEX b) They earn isk faster c) They are part of a certain social group d) They played longer
More importantly I don't see any as specifically more deserving SP than the others. Nor do I think the supposedly negative possibilities with a) invalidate the potentially positive possibilities with b) or c). |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 22:00:50 -
[5988] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Rat Scout wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Why don't you try reading it again so you'll see the part you quote is in the : Argument against the new system ..... yes exactly. Just to be clear I am in favor of the new system, and every single argument against it can be refuted in 140 characters or less. Want proof? List the reasons you feel are valid against the new SP trade and I will respond after a nap. :ps I can see how my fail quote snip suggests the opposite, meant to trim that line as well, but my response still stands, the "Con" crowd keep bringing up the "consequences" argument when in reality there is less with the current system then the new one. Stagnation: If you could play for free & not bother training would you ? I have 2 subscriptions with characters @ 49/24/27 Mill SP & 45/20/18 Mill SP. Training Acct 1 main for a carrier pilot, 2nd Scanning/ Pi, 3rd industrial / market seller Training Acct 2 main for industrial command (already a booster), 2nd & 3rd scanning / Pi alts Since they were introduced I have always used 1 multi-train per month (bought with ISK at the market) - and - in addition about every 2 -3 months I dual training on my 2nd account.
- I don't need really a carrier pilot it's just something I want to achieve - I'm in WH space & happy where I am. - My pi Alts are good enough at their jobs - I don't need an industrial command to be in a Rorqual - If I was moving to low or null sec but for the WH an orca will do. If it is possible to farm SP at a profit (say 10% return - market forces dictate that they need to make a profit for anyone to sell them). With TSP income and what I make in WH space - I will be able to play the game for free. Of course I don't want to stagnate or actually give up my training goals BUT this may give me a better goal... and playing for free may make stagnation a sweet alternative to continual training. Just one step towards the ultimate aim of any free to play financial model - getting the players to pay for progression ( if you have to pay for it then it is less likely to happen ). Pay To WIn : I would prefer -- If you don't like the bazaar - sell a $40 item to package an alt for sale on the market -- Think newbies need to train faster - introduce boosters with diminishing return -- Upset with your past training choices - sell a $20 item for remapping Don't make the effort of gaining skills worthless by selling skill points. I don't want TSP as proposed because it will fundamentally change core gameplay features please don't make a system where I can buy as many SP as I want and just pay to win.
If you are paying a subscription to CCP, everything you paid in the subscription should be all in, it is bit silly that you have to pay again for like an pair of jeans or some other ingame item. CCP is going more Pay to Win having a pay to buy SP is just a bad idea it total wrongs the way eve online is.
Just a shame that CCP only cares more about the money then it paying player base and not to listen to it paying player base, |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6861
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 22:45:47 -
[5989] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Actually lets just simplify the questions a bit on this pay to win thing:
How is it ok for vets to have experience and SP while on the same field as new players with neither, but only allow those new players the ability to actively seek parity in one of those two aspects?
If that's acceptable doesn't that basically state SP isn't so important as to need the special "protection" of being time gate only?
If not acceptable, why would we argue so hard to maintain that dynamic? Because when you hit a certain SP number, achievement unlocked. And gamerscore.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
51
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 22:48:56 -
[5990] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:[quote=Tyberius Franklin][quote=Iowa Banshee]SNIP Ok it's clear to me now, you are wrong.
Ok It's clear to me now, you are a troll
|
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
51
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 23:02:22 -
[5991] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Actually lets just simplify the questions a bit on this pay to win thing:
How is it ok for vets to have experience and SP while on the same field as new players with neither, but only allow those new players the ability to actively seek parity in one of those two aspects?
If that's acceptable doesn't that basically state SP isn't so important as to need the special "protection" of being time gate only?
If not acceptable, why would we argue so hard to maintain that dynamic?
For me the current dynamic is acceptable. I DO NOT see SP as winning. As a result I don't see an issue with someone having more SP because:
a) They bought PLEX b) They earn isk faster c) They are part of a certain social group d) They played longer
More importantly I don't see any as specifically more deserving SP than the others. Nor do I think the supposedly negative possibilities with a) invalidate the potentially positive possibilities with b) or c).
I see..... You simply don't understand the terminology
Pay to Win is a financial model that a games company can operate under Subscribe to play if a different financial model a games company can operate under Free to play is another financial model a games company can operate under
Search for Daniel Kaszor & http://business.financialpost.com - He has a series of articles about MMO financial models and the detrimental effects on players of switching models. In particular the switch from subscription to pay to win - I think the frereium may be a better alternative for the player base
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1767
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 23:57:48 -
[5992] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:I see..... You simply don't understand the terminology No, you're making a mistake in your conclusion as will be demonstrated.
Iowa Banshee wrote:Pay to Win is a financial model that a games company can operate under Subscribe to play if a different financial model a games company can operate under Free to play is another financial model a games company can operate under No, P2W is not a financial model itself. P2W is a means of encouraging F2P players to spend more. P2W is just a side effect of F2P games trying to create incentives for players to part with their money for an advantage.
One of the core tenets there is that the only means to have an ability or advantage that is only able to be gained through real money. That isn't the case as proposed for TSP (and is quite frankly already the case for time gated SP as things stand). One cannot exchange real money for TSP unless creating it from their own SP. And further they must do so for loss if they intent to re-inject it for other skills.
So basically one can pay for isk at the expense of the SP they gain over time. So essentially PLEX with more effort and potentially more volatile return.
For the buyer of the TSP cask via PLEX is an option, but as stated there is no reasoning that justifies the idea of SP needing to be treated differently than anything else aside from appeals to the way it has been and inconsistent measures of importance (it's not too important to deny new players, but is too important to allow them access?).
Iowa Banshee wrote:Search for Daniel Kaszor & http://business.financialpost.com - He has a series of articles about MMO financial models and the detrimental effects on players of switching models. In particular the switch from subscription to pay to win - I think the frereium may be a better alternative for the player base Sure, I'll take a look, but honestly given the issues with the statements thus far I don't think we'll come to an agreement. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
51
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 00:35:28 -
[5993] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:I see..... You simply don't understand the terminology No, you're making a mistake in your conclusion as will be demonstrated. Iowa Banshee wrote:Pay to Win is a financial model that a games company can operate under Subscribe to play if a different financial model a games company can operate under Free to play is another financial model a games company can operate under No, P2W is not a financial model itself. P2W is a means of encouraging players to spend more. P2W is just a side effect of games trying to create incentives for players to part with their money for an advantage. One of the core tenets there is that the only means to have a certain advantages is real money. That isn't the case as proposed for buying TSP (and is quite frankly already the case for time gated SP as things stand). One cannot exchange real money for TSP unless creating it from their own SP via extractors. And further they must do so for loss if they intent to re-inject it for other skills. So basically one can pay for isk at the expense of the SP they gain over time. So essentially PLEX with more effort and potentially more volatile return. For the buyer of the TSP cask via PLEX is an option, but as stated there is no reasoning that justifies the idea of SP needing to be treated differently than anything else aside from appeals to the way it has been and inconsistent measures of importance (it's not too important to deny new players, but is too important to allow them access?). Further real money cost isn't mandated either. Rather any real money solution requires sufficient in game earners to make the system work. Iowa Banshee wrote:Search for Daniel Kaszor & http://business.financialpost.com - He has a series of articles about MMO financial models and the detrimental effects on players of switching models. In particular the switch from subscription to pay to win - I think the frereium may be a better alternative for the player base Sure, I'll take a look, but honestly given the issues with the statements thus far I don't think we'll come to an agreement.
Then read this @ http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/08/13/separating-free-to-play-and-pay-to-win
When the quote - " ItGÇÖs when the GÇ£wallet warriorsGÇ¥ always win that causes other players to get frustrated and bail out "
When this concept gets applied to the game players will leave |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1767
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 00:38:36 -
[5994] - Quote
The quote I agree with; what I don't agree with is the idea that this change creates that scenario.
Does that help clear things up a bit? |
MrsKaye
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 01:12:36 -
[5995] - Quote
From a casual players perspective, this is a GREAT idea.
To those who don't agree, what's the real difference between this and the bazaar? The Bazaar is weak with stupid character names and bad character history that isn't even relevant to the new player.
The game really needs new blood anyway, and should stay competitive with 100Million dollar kickstarter projects that won't require skill points at all to fly ships. This feature will keep new players. |
joehillbilly
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 06:16:30 -
[5996] - Quote
Reading some of the posts, it looks like eve will become "world of spaceships" . no more mining, just buy "premium currency". Logi is nerfed (why not just kill it off). manufacturing won't be needed, CCP can just let you buy the ships. All of those crafty haulers won't be needed as there will be no manufacturing.
The idea of the lore and the only common thread left is going to be irrelevant. It doesn't make spaceships go boom faster. PLEX will be an active requirement just to stay relatively competitive. Kind of like the backwards move for games on touch screen devices. 2D is easier to digest and the easy access of that technology make it another mind numbing experience.
The idea of instant gratification is king. I like eve because it is a journey as much as a game. Lets just be like all of the other MMO's. Of course, the turn over will be high, but hey, let it role the cash until it burns out in 3-5 years.
Lets just milk eve for cash until Valkyrie and gunjack displace it in revenue.
How this ever came to the fore front of a game that was based on history, lore and a common thread that all players had to endure. Everyone could relate to and even respect the diligence of those who trained regularly.
Oh, well. I guess PvP is the only real cash generator for CCP. So, pew pew goes the multi faceted sandbox of old eve and in comes the straight line logic tree of show me the money. Pay to win or not. The older comments of dumbing down the game are gaining more relevance.
It appears that the squeeky wheels will win as the older guys have no approval of the whole social network model of mob rule.
I am glad to have the friends online that I have found as long as they last before boredom runs them off as well. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6862
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 06:34:16 -
[5997] - Quote
joehillbilly wrote:Lets just milk eve for cash until Valkyrie and gunjack displace it in revenue. Is that what we said about World of "psssh" Darkness and Dust "Laser Headshot" and/or Legion?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
40
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 17:28:23 -
[5998] - Quote
Everybody who is suggesting that TSP's are a bad thing somehow ignore the fact that everything they complain about already exists in EvE via the character bazar. Not a single complaint is strictly caused by the changes, but rather current flaws in the game are used as a logical fallacy.
I cant respond with sensible arguments to your complaints because they are true today and will be whether CCP goes ahead with this version of TSP or not.
Bitter-vet syndrome is not a good excuse to throttle progression when the possibility of improvement for EvE is at least 50%
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A Ingus
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
72
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 17:47:01 -
[5999] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Everybody who is suggesting that TSP's are a bad thing somehow ignore the fact that everything they complain about already exists in EvE via the character bazar. Not a single complaint is strictly caused by the changes, but rather current flaws in the game are used as a logical fallacy. I cant respond with sensible arguments to your complaints because they are true today and will be whether CCP goes ahead with this version of TSP or not. Bitter-vet syndrome is not a good excuse to throttle progression when the possibility of improvement for EvE is at least 50% There have been so many posts back and forth about how the character bazaar is not the same thing. The logical fallacy for your point is that if it was the same thing there would be no reason to introduce TSPs. There would be no OP.
Also, you can characterize all the critiques of the OP as bittervet syndrome that throttles progression all you want, it does not make it so.
Finally, you can pull a fifty percent chance of TSPs improving the game, whatever that is to you, out of your posterior all you want. It doesn't conceal the fact that you just made up your own statistic. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
203
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 18:14:26 -
[6000] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Everybody who is suggesting that TSP's are a bad thing somehow ignore the fact that everything they complain about already exists in EvE via the character bazar. Not a single complaint is strictly caused by the changes, but rather current flaws in the game are used as a logical fallacy. I cant respond with sensible arguments to your complaints because they are true today and will be whether CCP goes ahead with this version of TSP or not. Bitter-vet syndrome is not a good excuse to throttle progression when the possibility of improvement for EvE is at least 50%
It is kind of pointless to discuss with you when you start with lie, but I have no problem to stress it again. On character bazaar you can buy characters. You do not have option to buy SP and inject it to your original character.
And a whole issue does not even have to do much with bitter vet syndrome but with lack of consistency in game fundamentals which will definitely make people ask themselves do they really want to pay for the service where they cannot make long term plans as who know what else can be changed, obviously nothing is sacred anymore in the "rush for gold".
Let alone that it will fail miserably in getting large number of players and keeping them in the game.
Edit: And LOL for 50% estimation. Really funny :) . BTW seems you forgot that this came became what it was at its peak because CCP actually listened to those bitter vet players and those bitter vets were the biggest reason why it grew. We can see the trend and direction after they started listening others or not listening to anyone at all.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 19:08:39 -
[6001] - Quote
A Ingus wrote: There have been so many posts back and forth about how the character bazaar is not the same thing. The logical fallacy for your point is that if it was the same thing there would be no reason to introduce TSPs. There would be no OP.
Also, you can characterize all the critiques of the OP as bittervet syndrome that throttles progression all you want, it does not make it so.
Finally, you can pull a fifty percent chance of TSPs improving the game, whatever that is to you, out of your posterior all you want. It doesn't conceal the fact that you just made up your own statistic.
I am surprised you managed to see trough my bullshit statistic yet you missed the part where I said the SYMPTOMS of character bazar are the same as trading SP, I never said the means by which skill points trade on the market are the same. |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 19:12:08 -
[6002] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:
Let alone that it will fail miserably in getting large number of players and keeping them in the game.
This is about CCP getting more revenue, not about more new players. Do some math and figure out how much money is generated for CCP by trading a 50m character now vs the near future with TSP's.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1768
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 20:01:44 -
[6003] - Quote
A Ingus wrote:There have been so many posts back and forth about how the character bazaar is not the same thing. The logical fallacy for your point is that if it was the same thing there would be no reason to introduce TSPs. There would be no OP.
Also, you can characterize all the critiques of the OP as bittervet syndrome that throttles progression all you want, it does not make it so. The character Bazaar is used the same way now that TSP would be if it were introduced. People go there to buy SP. They get characters because that is the only way to get that SP. It's the same end point save for some baggage that frankly goes against the fundamental idea of consequence.
Unless the proper consequence for performing criminal acts is to sell the reputation for profit and a clear character slot to repeat the crimes.
As far as the objections not being bittervet syndrome, that's true. They're a mix of that and suggestions that SP inequality for any reason other than sub length is game breaking somehow. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
203
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 20:21:53 -
[6004] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:
Let alone that it will fail miserably in getting large number of players and keeping them in the game.
This is about CCP getting more revenue, not about more new players. Do some math and figure out how much money is generated for CCP by trading a 50m character now vs the near future with TSP's.
CCP revenue is their own problem, by going in the wrong direction with the game they are just going to shoot their own foot and all microtransactions wont be near the revenue lost by canceled subscriptions. And regardless of that, sorting their finance is their own issue, I speak from loyal, long term paying customer perspective, customer which is worried about the service heis paying for and their providing of the same. If it is obvious that they are going in the wrong direction for some time, I will raise my voice against it.
Not sure if you are aware but character bazaar remains there as it is. So they will have some minor increase in revenue with TSP, but will it be bigger than canceled subscriptions? By players feedback I really doubt it.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
203
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 20:24:42 -
[6005] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:A Ingus wrote:There have been so many posts back and forth about how the character bazaar is not the same thing. The logical fallacy for your point is that if it was the same thing there would be no reason to introduce TSPs. There would be no OP.
Also, you can characterize all the critiques of the OP as bittervet syndrome that throttles progression all you want, it does not make it so. The character Bazaar is used the same way now that TSP would be if it were introduced. People go there to buy SP. They get characters because that is the only way to get that SP. It's the same end point save for some baggage that frankly goes against the fundamental idea of consequence. Unless the proper consequence for performing criminal acts is to sell the reputation for profit and a clear character slot to repeat the crimes. As far as the objections not being bittervet syndrome, that's true. They're a mix of that and suggestions that SP inequality for any reason other than sub length is game breaking somehow.
No, it is not the same. You cannot stack that "purchased SP" in form of another character to your original character ie you are buying different character with all pros&cons in his development, history... No matter how many times you repeat it, it will never be the same.
If it is the same, why introduce TSP and keep character bazaar at the same time?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1768
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 21:02:43 -
[6006] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:No, it is not the same. You cannot stack that "purchased SP" in form of another character to your original character ie you are buying different character with all pros&cons in his development, history... No matter how many times you repeat it, it will never be the same.
If it is the same, why introduce TSP and keep character bazaar at the same time? That distinction is irrelevant to my claim. The fact is with a character purchase you have no need to stack SP since you are buying a capability set in character form. You want a T3 character? You buy a T3 character. Need a cap sitter? That's what you buy.
Why? Because it's come to the point that ability is what you are after. The SP. The thing you essentially buying. That you can't transfer it on purchase doesn't invalidate that.
Last question is pointless because it conflates "used the same way" with "is the same." One I said, the other you pulled from who knows where. I would think if you read the post you quoted where I highlighted one of the most cited differences you would pick up on that distinction. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
206
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 01:05:51 -
[6007] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:No, it is not the same. You cannot stack that "purchased SP" in form of another character to your original character ie you are buying different character with all pros&cons in his development, history... No matter how many times you repeat it, it will never be the same.
If it is the same, why introduce TSP and keep character bazaar at the same time? That distinction is irrelevant to my claim. The fact is with a character purchase you have no need to stack SP since you are buying a capability set in character form. You want a T3 character? You buy a T3 character. Need a cap sitter? That's what you buy. Why? Because it's come to the point that ability is what you are after. The SP. The thing you essentially buying. That you can't transfer it on purchase doesn't invalidate that. Last question is pointless because it conflates "used the same way" with "is the same." One I said, the other you pulled from who knows where. I would think if you read the post you quoted where I highlighted one of the most cited differences you would pick up on that distinction. Edit: But if you reallty want a reason that's pretty simple too: Want a quick alt? Character Bazaar. Don't care about the Character you created? Character Bazaar. Want a quick entry into a function where name/rep don't matter? Character Bazaar. Want a quick SP boost for a short term training goal? TSP. Want to fully tailor a character from start to finish? TSP.
Well that distinction makes your whole claim void as if we are discussing, we have to discuss "whole picture", not just one aspect of it.
It does provide you some additional ability. But that comes at the cost of "personalisation" of the char, ie you are buying some other character which has that ability, you are not buying ability for your original character. Though I can agree that for some people it does not matter.
When you come to the point that ability is what you are after, you have already spent time in the game to learn, earn and develop your char, so it should not take you long to get that ability either. There can be a small portion of people whose learning goes faster than their "sp abilities" but that portion is quite small. For majority sp ability comes right in time :)
It is the same way or it is the same, question of semantics... The point still stands, it is different because buying sp alters game fundamentals.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 01:29:34 -
[6008] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:
It is the same way or it is the same, question of semantics... The point still stands, it is different because buying sp alters game fundamentals.
The point standing is only relevant if the change of game fundamental is creating a less enjoyable environment for most players as a whole.
I think you are closer to the base viewpoint that I believe the supporters of this change have, when you get there maybe we can have some honest discussions what exactly is wrong with TSP and who really is trying to bang the drums louder then they need to.
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
206
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 01:39:43 -
[6009] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:
It is the same way or it is the same, question of semantics... The point still stands, it is different because buying sp alters game fundamentals.
The point standing is only relevant if the change of game fundamental is creating a less enjoyable environment for most players as a whole. I think you are closer to the base viewpoint that I believe the supporters of this change have, when you get there maybe we can have some honest discussions what exactly is wrong with TSP and who really is trying to bang the drums louder then they need to.
Well it obviously does create a less enjoyable environment. People are already canceling subscriptions and much more said they will do it if it really hits. As I keep mentioning and no one of "pro sayers" seems to understand this is precedent which goes out of game limits. They are changing the fundamental part of the service which they were providing to their customers. And there is obviously plenty of customers who are not happy with it. Will there be more of those who will be attracted to the game by those changes and will the revenue and profit go up in time due to this? Time will tell but I strongly doubt it.
Not to even mention other possible side effects, for me this one is enough to know that I cannot lean on CCP and that I should not have any long term plans for the game anymore.
I have already stated numerous reasons why this is wrong over 200 pages ago, I cannot be arsed to copy/paste them as I do not think your or mine comments actually matter to CCP. And I do not really care if you will agree with me or not, I would just want CCP officials to communicate and explain what damage control they plan when those hit (or why they think they will not happen). So far I have not seen a single proper reason why this might be good. I can understand some personal gains some people will get, but as I said I really doubt the game and player base will gain anything. Ie one more step in the wrong direction by CCP.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
276
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 12:09:37 -
[6010] - Quote
Has there been any update from CCP concerning this? |
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Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 12:21:41 -
[6011] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Has there been any update from CCP concerning this?
No.
The purpose of this thread was solely to gauge the level of anger.
Now they will compare the level of anger vs the extra profit, and make their decision. |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 14:49:33 -
[6012] - Quote
Feel more like an IQ test. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
160
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 16:24:07 -
[6013] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: The point still stands, it is different because buying sp alters game fundamentals.
What kind of "fundamentals"?
Don ZOLA wrote:You will never be able to overcome me in SP unless I quit and that makes me happy "fundamental" like this makes you happy. Who would doubt it?
Don ZOLA wrote:Well it obviously does create a less enjoyable environment. People are already canceling subscriptions "I strongly doubt it" Anyway they are not customers anymore. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
207
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 18:50:37 -
[6014] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Well it obviously does create a less enjoyable environment. People are already canceling subscriptions "I strongly doubt it" Anyway they are not customers anymore. Don ZOLA wrote: The point still stands, it is different because buying sp alters game fundamentals.
What kind of "fundamentals"? Don ZOLA wrote:They are changing the fundamental part of the service which they were providing to their customers. And there is obviously plenty of customers who are not happy with it. Don ZOLA wrote:You will never be able to overcome me in SP unless I quit and that makes me happy Of course "fundamental" like this makes you happy. Who would doubt it?
1. Some of them are. Ie they have canceled some accounts but not all. Who would have thought of that? 2. I have already wrote numerous times about this, go troll someone else 3. That was trolling for troll. This change does not make me happy, regardless of would I have more sp than some random troll.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
160
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 19:24:36 -
[6015] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: That was trolling for troll.
I told you...
Quote:He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.
Don ZOLA wrote: Some of them are. Ie they have canceled some accounts but not all.
They become less valuable.
Don ZOLA wrote: I have already wrote numerous times about this Yea side effects, concerns, etc
You worry when the weather's cold You worry when it's hot You worry when you're doing well You worry when you're not It's worry worry all the time
You may need help anxiety and OCD are not a joke.
Don ZOLA wrote: go troll someone else Trollin' troll it's like rock'n'roll but different spelling. ;)Gäó |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1774
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 19:29:52 -
[6016] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Well that distinction makes your whole claim void as if we are discussing, we have to discuss "whole picture", not just one aspect of it. Indeed, and the most important aspect is how the features are being used, not the specific differences that constitute a real but irrelevant difference. And in the case those differences exist evaluate whether they hold value or not.
So the end is still the same, people are buying SP in character form now, but are still buying SP. The only difference is the sale of consequence which makes no sense if you actually believe consequence worthwhile.
There are no penalties for waste SP so that becomes an effective non-differentiation between the 2.
The only thing left is the ability to add SP to an existing character, which has yet to be proven as game breaking. Several statements claiming it is, but then the current SP system runs afoul the same core objections.
Don ZOLA wrote:It does provide you some additional ability. But that comes at the cost of "personalisation" of the char, ie you are buying some other character which has that ability, you are not buying ability for your original character. Though I can agree that for some people it does not matter. And as stated above, why that distinction matters, or more specifically why it's a negative is pretty poorly defined. Fact is for every character ever sold that was a non-consideration or a consideration that lost to function.
Don ZOLA wrote:When you come to the point that ability is what you are after, you have already spent time in the game to learn, earn and develop your char, so it should not take you long to get that ability either. There can be a small portion of people whose learning goes faster than their "sp abilities" but that portion is quite small. For majority sp ability comes right in time :) That's a very strong series of statements. I'll just ask directly:
Do you have anything remotely resembling actual proof that proficiency and training times are linked in any manner? How do you account for this holding true when access to a tool and max SP efficiency with that tool are so far apart? How do you account for the fact that max SP efficiency for a tool can be reached without ever having any experience? How do you account for the fact that you cannot access a specialty tool to get experience without having trained it, ensuring that capability came before practice?
Essentially what I'm highlighting here is the fact that since SP and activities related to that SP are not mutually dependent, statements about SP coming "just in time" are really ignorant of how training works. Further those statements make a completely unjustifiable series of assumptions about personal learning curves in relation to training time on top of assuming them all equal.
Don ZOLA wrote:It is the same way or it is the same, question of semantics... The point still stands, it is different because buying sp alters game fundamentals. No, it goes beyond semantics. It goes into determining if those aspects changed alter the game for the good or the bad. There is a lot of assumption to the bad, but little justification beyond "Anything besides SP over time per character is bad because we say so." |
A Ingus
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
74
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 20:46:28 -
[6017] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: The character Bazaar is used the same way now that TSP would be if it were introduced. People go there to buy SP. They get characters because that is the only way to get that SP. It's the same end point save for some baggage that frankly goes against the fundamental idea of consequence.
Unless the proper consequence for performing criminal acts is to sell the reputation for profit and a clear character slot to repeat the crimes.
As far as the objections not being bittervet syndrome, that's true. They're a mix of that and suggestions that SP inequality for any reason other than sub length is game breaking somehow. Buying characters is not the only way to get sp. Paid time in a character is the only way to get sp. Buying a character through the bazaar was a compromise CCP had to make to kill off RMT of characters, and the resulting account and identity/credit card ripoffs which caused CCP much headache. What the person is buying is somebodys paid time with a character.
What makes TSP different is that individual characters will no longer gain sp through the same method. Some will gain more relative sp through an expenditure of rl money. All characters will no longer be created equal, equal through sp accumulation method.
This is more than a crack, more like a fissure, in the foundation of how characters accumulate sp. It is one step toward all the other clones on the market atm. The unique aspect of eve character development will be lost. At that point it will not take much more to just junk the whole sp system and convert to an xp system.
As for character history and the bazaar, there are other ways CCP could address that. And name changes the same. But apparently CCP does not see the same $ in other routes. So here we are with destroying the uniqueness and for some or many the soul of this game in some hail mary pass to getting more subs. Subs that will no longer be created equal. Good luck with that selling point.
Rat Scout wrote: I think you are closer to the base viewpoint that I believe the supporters of this change have, when you get there maybe we can have some honest discussions what exactly is wrong with TSP and who really is trying to bang the drums louder then they need to. Your posts and Lootits drip with pith and lack of honest discussion. So, no, its you. You who have a lack of honesty and frankly are beating the drums louder because you think this change will somehow benefit your character.
Or to be more charitable you may think it might help new players. The problem is it would only be those new players with cash, and probably also with some more advanced game knowledge than your average newbie. This change will really only benefit a few relatively newish players that have alts or rl cash to dump into the game in the elusive quest for some kind of perfect character.
Rat Scout wrote: [in response to a comment that CCP is comparing the level of anger vs the extra profit, and make their decision accordingly] Feel more like an IQ test. Flippant ad hominem argument against those that disagree with you. Behold your honest discussion. |
A Ingus
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
74
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 21:04:56 -
[6018] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Well it obviously does create a less enjoyable environment. People are already canceling subscriptions "I strongly doubt it" Anyway they are not customers anymore. Well here is one that is waiting for his last account out of 4 former accounts to time out in January. And I doubt I am alone in this. So you are wrong. Still a customer, but willing to stop being one and not come back if this floated idea gets implemented.
As for the toungue in cheek exchange with Don Zola over having more sp, my response is the joke is that this is not an sp race game. There is no level 80 skill level, or purchased out of game magical item, contest. To engage in an sp race is to misunderstand what this game is about.
It has always been about setting goals and working toward them patiently. But over the years more instant gratification mechanisms have snuck in along with people that want ways to achieve in that way.
When I started your starting sp was laughable. It was a big deal months into the game to get my first BC, a prophecy back when they frankly sucked even. I set other goals, and worked toward them over time. And I was not alone in that endeavor. That is the investment in this game that made and still yet makes it great.
But all that will lost like tears in the rain . . |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
210
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 21:19:11 -
[6019] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Indeed, and the most important aspect is how the features are being used, not the specific differences that constitute a real but irrelevant difference. And in the case those differences exist evaluate whether they hold value or not.
So the end is still the same, people are buying SP in character form now, but are still buying SP. The only difference is the sale of consequence which makes no sense if you actually believe consequence worthwhile.
There are no penalties for waste SP so that becomes an effective non-differentiation between the 2.
The only thing left is the ability to add SP to an existing character, which has yet to be proven as game breaking. Several statements claiming it is, but then the current SP system runs afoul the same core objections.
I think the most important aspect as side effects. If CCP did not already have a trend of going in wrong direction maybe we could skip over it and trust them in what they are doing. Unfortunately it is not the case, so if no one else players have to raise the voice and point to the side effects and then either get comments from CCP or like in this occasion they will show us that they do not really care about our feedback. We will see will it backfire (again). 7
Why it is still not the same - because all that sp is still distributed over different characters and cannot be "stacked" on one. Why it is not irrelevant - because it is changing game fundamentals. And that influences whole customer - service provider relationship. I cannot be arsed to write more details again, find some of my WOT`s on this subject on previous pages.
Tyberius Franklin wrote: And as stated above, why that distinction matters, or more specifically why it's a negative is pretty poorly defined. Fact is for every character ever sold that was a non-consideration or a consideration that lost to function.
I actually defined the most of side effects in details in over 4 WOT`s, so I cannot be arsed to do it again. Though, you can still find it poorly defined, but at least you would have to read it first. I admit I am a bit non constructive with answers like this but I already wrote thousands of characters on this subject and I do not see point in repeating myself, especially since the ones it was aimed at (CCP) are not bothered to discuss. So basically, both you and me are wasting time here :)
Tyberius Franklin wrote: That's a very strong series of statements. I'll just ask directly:
Do you have anything remotely resembling actual proof that proficiency and training times are linked in any manner? How do you account for this holding true when access to a tool and max SP efficiency with that tool are so far apart? How do you account for the fact that max SP efficiency for a tool can be reached without ever having any experience? How do you account for the fact that you cannot access a specialty tool to get experience without having trained it, ensuring that capability came before practice?
Essentially what I'm highlighting here is the fact that since SP and activities related to that SP are not mutually dependent, statements about SP coming "just in time" are really ignorant of how training works. Further those statements make a completely unjustifiable series of assumptions about personal learning curves in relation to training time on top of assuming them all equal.
I do not have "official proof" but only the proofs from my experience. Throughout history of eve there were not too many players which you could call "overskilled for their sp" ie the ones whose learning capabilities were much higher than sp limits. I estimate their numbers to be not more then couple of percent of total player base. Of course, it is in human nature to always ask for more, so we have plenty of people who want to get something but when they actually get it they have no idea how to use it properly. I would say that majority of players nowadays are casual players and their sp and abilities are in line at best. I`d dare to say that capabilities of huge part of player base are actually behind their sp limits. Which still does not mean there are no "overskilled" players in the game, but that is too small % to risk with some unprecedented change like this.
SP efficiency for a tool can be reached even without having any experience is something which can help you have wider experience in the game. If you plan to switch career or just want to have new experiences now and then you can easily prepare yourself in advance. I do not see that as a side effect.
Practice and knowledge come with time. Both in life and eve, they are not just simple wide line of knowledge but specializations and can be considered more as "upgraded" knowledge. By having basic knowledge you can estimate what is needed for "advanced" levels and perfect it with more practice. Ie if you have knowledge and experience of flying certain class of ships you can estimate behavior and capabilities of advanced ships as well. But if you do not have the basic knowledge, having sp does not mean you will be able to utilize or be more efficient with advanced ones.
Tyberius Franklin wrote: No, it goes beyond semantics. It goes into determining if those aspects changed alter the game for the good or the bad. There is a lot of assumption to the bad, but little justification beyond "Anything besides SP over time per character is bad because we say so."
As I already mentioned, I wrote more than couple of WOTs with plenty of side effects which have crossed my mind. There are also a lot of contribution from other players. But it is mostly in the first 100 pages, so if you really want to see what other players think about it I suggest you start over the thread from the page 1. It will take time and will probably be waste of time since all discussions and useless spam/trolling is between pro and con side without any feedback from CCP.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
55
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 21:21:46 -
[6020] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: "Anything besides SP over time per character is bad because we say so."
NO that's not how it works - SP over Time per Character is how it works NOW.
if you support this change to TSP then the onus is on you to tell us how you "think" it will be better. And then ..... we get to tell you why we "think" your assumptions of how this change will affect the game are either right or wrong. We will either be in agreement, against or suggest an alternative - we do not have say anything about the existing system, we know how that works, we just have to say how we think the proposed change will affect the game.
You could make a numbered list of "Number 1 - I think TSP will be better for the game because" - and we can reply to your assumptions one point at time to avoid troll-rambling or irrelevant anecdotes.
|
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
210
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 21:22:44 -
[6021] - Quote
A Ingus wrote:[ Well here is one that is waiting for his last account out of 4 former accounts to time out in January. And I doubt I am alone in this. So you are wrong. Still a customer, but willing to stop being one and not come back if this floated idea gets implemented.
When I canceled mine`s I wrote TSP as a comment for canceling them, as we obviously need new channels for communication with CCP as they do not care to feedback here :|
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1774
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 21:30:18 -
[6022] - Quote
A Ingus wrote:Buying characters is not the only way to get sp. Paid time in a character is the only way to get sp. Buying a character through the bazaar was a compromise CCP had to make to kill off RMT of characters, and the resulting account and identity/credit card ripoffs which caused CCP much headache. What the person is buying is somebodys paid time with a character. No one claimed buying characters wasthe oonly way to get SP, though as has been demonstrated time and time again yes, buying characters is a way to buy SP because the SP is part of the character. Specifically it's the part that everyone is after. If you want to go by the logic that the origin of all SP is time fine, just realize that's still the case with the suggestion, thus there is no difference in that fact and thus no argument against it for stating it.
This suggestion still has you buying someone's time.
Further, no, CCP didn't have to do anything to address the RMT. They chose to do so. That choice changed the strict adherence to the dynamic of sub length = SP.
A Ingus wrote:What makes TSP different is that individual characters will no longer gain sp through the same method. Some will gain more relative sp through an expenditure of rl money. All characters will no longer be created equal, equal through sp accumulation method. That's a statement of fact, not a statement of a problem. The issue present in opposing the op is that there still hasn't been any expression of reason for the time only dynamic to be maintained, just the notation that it isn't on a per character basis.
So again, why is that a problem?
A Ingus wrote:This is more than a crack, more like a fissure, in the foundation of how characters accumulate sp. It is one step toward all the other clones on the market atm. The unique aspect of eve character development will be lost. At that point it will not take much more to just junk the whole sp system and convert to an xp system. No, the way characters accumulate SP is not being changed. In fact all traded SP very literally comes from the same method of training that has been in the game since day 1. The only difference is the ability to exchange. To the idea of there not being much more before conversion to an XP system, I guess if you mean to suggest that actually decoupling available SP from subs and converting it to specific activities, and due to that likely needing some actual fundamental reworks is "not taking much" then sure. But that said I'm not sure anyone rational would think of a total rework as "not much."
A Ingus wrote:As for character history and the bazaar, there are other ways CCP could address that. And name changes the same. But apparently CCP does not see the same $ in other routes. So here we are with destroying the uniqueness and for some or many the soul of this game in some hail mary pass to getting more subs. Subs that will no longer be created equal. Good luck with that selling point. No, we're not destroying uniqueness. Some of you are mis-characterizing it as that, yes. The thing is the change still results in a very unique system that literally maintains every function we've had till now but through a new function eliminates some barriers. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
160
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 22:03:51 -
[6023] - Quote
A Ingus wrote:Or to be more charitable you may think it might help new players. The problem is it would only be those new players with cash, and probably also with some more advanced game knowledge than your average newbie. This change will really only benefit a few relatively newish players that have alts or rl cash to dump into the game in the elusive quest for some kind of perfect character. SP traiding will make SP boosting more accessible for thoose players who cannot or wont to spend large amount of isk at once how it happening on bazaar. So your argument seems not convenient to me.
A Ingus wrote: this is not an sp race game. There is no level 80 skill level, or purchased out of game magical item, contest. To engage in an sp race is to misunderstand what this game is about. Tell it to Vahligmarr or any other person who shouting "Pay to win!"
Vahligmarr wrote: the big change is not what is happening from 100 to 200 Million SP, the change is, with SPT you can have a skill up to lvl 5 instantly. Which is a huge advantage, when something new comes out ( skill, ship, module ). No matter how you call it, you will hit a paywall then, if you want to be competitive. I assuming that she want to be competitive but wont compete with SP.
A Ingus wrote: But over the years more instant gratification mechanisms have snuck in along with people that want ways to achieve in that way.
I need to do something in the game to be able buy TSP and I can't call it "instant gratification". But now I watching how my SP growing with no action from my side. I think it some sort of lazy gratification. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1776
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 22:05:41 -
[6024] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: "Anything besides SP over time per character is bad because we say so."
NO that's not how it works - SP over Time per Character is how it works NOW. Yeah, that's exactly what I said. The question being why? What justifies this stance?
Iowa Banshee wrote:if you support this change to TSP then the onus is on you to tell us how you "think" it will be better. And then ..... we get to tell you why we "think" your assumptions of how this change will affect the game are either right or wrong. We will either be in agreement, against or suggest an alternative - we do not have say anything about the existing system, we know how that works, we just have to say how we think the proposed change will affect the game.
You could make a numbered list of "Number 1 - I think TSP will be better for the game because" - and we can reply to your assumptions one point at time to avoid troll-rambling or irrelevant anecdotes. Simple, I expect the following with varying degrees of probability
a) TSP will aid in speeding training for those that desire it b) TSP will allow for greater association with a players chosen identity c) TSP will reduce the amount necessary to partake of SP purchases via buying whole characters making it more accessible d) TSP will be farmed by those with training idle accounts increasing supply and making the packets approach affordability e) TSP will be offered as a recruitment bonus to various player orgs f) TSP will be sold for isk on the market increasing visibility and availability g) Due to c), d), e) and f), TSP will likely be plentiful and allow greater use of the currently somewhat cost prohibitive character Bazaar method of obtaining SP h) TSP return scaling will support the creation of new chanracters more than the further development of older characters with years of training i) Note that h) does NOT mean that I expect it to not be used by vets for their mains at some level, nor do I think it won't be used for alt creation j) TSP will generate revenue for CCP via the same of extractors and likely PLEX to afford TSP by those not inclined to try to earn isk for them k) TSP will generate greater activity on some level by those who are inclined to grind isk for them l) As a result of k) TSP will allow the skill system to incentivize activity in ways it currently does not m) As a result of PLEX sales for TSP in game PLEX prices may (this is a really big may, to the point of even going the opposite direction depending on extractor price and the number of PLEX consumers born from this change. It's REALLY iffy.) decrease for the increased supply introduced n) TSP disincentivizes reputation dumping via the Bazaar o) TSP automates the rules of the SP transfer process by applying item trade mechanics to them, resulting in less need for human oversight compared to the Bazaar
More as I think of it....
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1777
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 22:25:49 -
[6025] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:I think the most important aspect as side effects. If CCP did not already have a trend of going in wrong direction maybe we could skip over it and trust them in what they are doing. Unfortunately it is not the case, so if no one else players have to raise the voice and point to the side effects and then either get comments from CCP or like in this occasion they will show us that they do not really care about our feedback. We will see will it backfire (again). "We all know CCP makes mistakes," is not and will never be a force that can deter CCP from making changes. You admit to knowing this, yet seem to be trying to act against it. That's not a sane stance. It's one you can never win if their will is against you, and makes for anything but convincing reasoning when the person giving it is still subbed.
Sorry, but that argument is anything but.
Quote:Why it is still not the same - because all that sp is still distributed over different characters and cannot be "stacked" on one. Why it is not irrelevant - because it is changing game fundamentals. And that influences whole customer - service provider relationship. I cannot be arsed to write more details again, find some of my WOT`s on this subject on previous pages.
I actually defined the most of side effects in details in over 4 WOT`s, so I cannot be arsed to do it again. Though, you can still find it poorly defined, but at least you would have to read it first. I admit I am a bit non constructive with answers like this but I already wrote thousands of characters on this subject and I do not see point in repeating myself, especially since the ones it was aimed at (CCP) are not bothered to discuss. So basically, both you and me are wasting time here :) I'm not having this conversation for CCPs sake. I'm having it because I cannot fathom the mechanical attachment people have to the exact implementation of training. Further I can't understand why most do so when the best endorsement they give is that it's "unique" while overlooking that it's still very unique as proposed.
And no, it's changing one aspect of a system, which people keep saying is a fundamental, but the proposal pretty much proves isn't since the entire rest of the system can withstand the change without adjustment. That makes it essentially not fundamental, but an important factor for some for reasons that still aren't explained.
Quote:I do not have "official proof" but only the proofs from my experience. Throughout history of eve there were not too many players which you could call "overskilled for their sp" ie the ones whose learning capabilities were much higher than sp limits. I estimate their numbers to be not more then couple of percent of total player base. Of course, it is in human nature to always ask for more, so we have plenty of people who want to get something but when they actually get it they have no idea how to use it properly. I would say that majority of players nowadays are casual players and their sp and abilities are in line at best. I`d dare to say that capabilities of huge part of player base are actually behind their sp limits. Which still does not mean there are no "overskilled" players in the game, but that is too small % to risk with some unprecedented change like this.
SP efficiency for a tool can be reached even without having any experience is something which can help you have wider experience in the game. If you plan to switch career or just want to have new experiences now and then you can easily prepare yourself in advance. I do not see that as a side effect.
Practice and knowledge come with time. Both in life and eve, they are not just simple wide line of knowledge but specializations and can be considered more as "upgraded" knowledge. By having basic knowledge you can estimate what is needed for "advanced" levels and perfect it with more practice. Ie if you have knowledge and experience of flying certain class of ships you can estimate behavior and capabilities of advanced ships as well. But if you do not have the basic knowledge, having sp does not mean you will be able to utilize or be more efficient with advanced ones. So basically a whole lot of anecdote coupled with the failure to actually demonstrate a link between training and player proficiency. Time and proficiency yes, but we aren't using an XP system that rewards practice with progress. That's the breakdown here. What you train and what you do have no specific reason to be interrelated.
Thus a link between SP and player skill cannot be established nor proven correctly paced for anyone much less everyone.
Quote:As I already mentioned, I wrote more than couple of WOTs with plenty of side effects which have crossed my mind. There are also a lot of contribution from other players. But it is mostly in the first 100 pages, so if you really want to see what other players think about it I suggest you start over the thread from the page 1. It will take time and will probably be waste of time since all discussions and useless spam/trolling is between pro and con side without any feedback from CCP. And I've written more than my fair share addressing those same supposed issues, exploits and reasons. You don't even need to read the whole thread. Just look at my post history. You'll see why any appeal to review the thread can be discarded as, by my participation alone as evidence, I was there as the arguments were made the n'th time and responded to them like it was the first for much of the thread.
I've been willing to represent my reasonings repeatedly. That you won't do so when their challenges doesn't obligate me to do your legwork. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
56
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 23:03:15 -
[6026] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: "Anything besides SP over time per character is bad because we say so."
NO that's not how it works - SP over Time per Character is how it works NOW. Yeah, that's exactly what I said. The question being why? What justifies this stance? Iowa Banshee wrote:if you support this change to TSP then the onus is on you to tell us how you "think" it will be better. And then ..... we get to tell you why we "think" your assumptions of how this change will affect the game are either right or wrong. We will either be in agreement, against or suggest an alternative - we do not have say anything about the existing system, we know how that works, we just have to say how we think the proposed change will affect the game.
You could make a numbered list of "Number 1 - I think TSP will be better for the game because" - and we can reply to your assumptions one point at time to avoid troll-rambling or irrelevant anecdotes. Simple, I expect the following with varying degrees of probability a) TSP will aid in speeding training for those that desire it b) TSP will allow for greater association with a players chosen identity c) TSP will reduce the amount necessary to partake of SP purchases via buying whole characters making it more accessible d) TSP will be farmed by those with training idle accounts increasing supply and making the packets approach affordability e) TSP will be offered as a recruitment bonus to various player orgs f) TSP will be sold for isk on the market increasing visibility and availability g) Due to c), d), e) and f), TSP will likely be plentiful and allow greater use of the currently somewhat cost prohibitive character Bazaar method of obtaining SP h) TSP return scaling will support the creation of new chanracters more than the further development of older characters with years of training i) Note that h) does NOT mean that I expect it to not be used by vets for their mains at some level, nor do I think it won't be used for alt creation j) TSP will generate revenue for CCP via the same of extractors and likely PLEX to afford TSP by those not inclined to try to earn isk for them k) TSP will generate greater activity on some level by those who are inclined to grind isk for them l) As a result of k) TSP will allow the skill system to incentivize activity in ways it currently does not m) As a result of PLEX sales for TSP in game PLEX prices may (this is a really big may, to the point of even going the opposite direction depending on extractor price and the number of PLEX consumers born from this change. It's REALLY iffy.) decrease for the increased supply introduced n) TSP disincentivizes reputation dumping via the Bazaar o) TSP automates the rules of the SP transfer process by applying item trade mechanics to them, resulting in less need for human oversight compared to the Bazaar More as I think of it.... a) Exchange of SP not needed to speed training: See Blood Raider boosters b) Drivel - what does this mean? OR are you thinking remapping already trained skills so you can love your toon more - You don't need TSP you need a remapping tool c) d) e) f) h) i) j) k) l) m) -- All require putting in place a system that will allow people to use real life money to gain SP advantage in a game where a normal subscription limits the use of cash to gaining skill points at a set rate. n) A remapping tool would cure this o) Character packager to allow direct sales in game on the market would cure this.
Boosters, re- mappers and a whole character packager will cover all this - Leaving all the rest to fall under the category "I want to allow one subscriber to use real life cash to improve their lot over a another subscriber"
If you want people to be able to use cash to buy SP why not just allow more than one multiple training certificate to be active and just say "pay us $240 and your character will gain SP 20 times faster that the schmuck who thought his subscription alone was enough to stay on par with players" or "pay us $30 and you get 3million SP"
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A Ingus
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
76
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 23:10:09 -
[6027] - Quote
General Lootit wrote: SP traiding will make SP boosting more accessible for thoose players who cannot or wont to spend large amount of isk at once how it happening on bazaar. So your argument seems not convenient to me.
I need to do something in the game to be able to buy TSP and I can't call it "instant gratification". But now I watching how my SP growing with no action from my side. I think it some sort of lazy gratification. SP boosting for actual new players can be done in other and consistent/equal ways. But really the TSP method CCP is proposing is all about not brand new players and their $.
You wont find me liking the character bazaar and the pricing there. I have never bought a character. If I wanted an alt I created one the same way I created all my other characters. But I understand that CCP felt it was the only way to combat the rmt exchange of characters. RMTs that had the actual and potential results of rl scams of various sorts that CCP had to get caught up in through support tickets.
What you call lazy gratification is in my view patient gratification. And simply owning a subscription will not help your future whatever pilot. You play, you learn, and you patiently wait for the skills to train while doing the two preceding. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4304
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 23:24:11 -
[6028] - Quote
BTW. Time ago, l already suggested a bypass to the "SP frustration".
Suggested to do that by letting players "borrow" SP inmediately, in exchange for a slower SP acquisiton rate afterwards.
Say, a player haves 3 months left of subcription and would earn 5 million SP in that period. Let him capitalize 2.5 million inmediately and then half the acquisition rate until the 3 months expire. So he can fly "that ship" now, but any futher improvement will be slower.
CCP, you know, could even sell for AUR the necessary device... maybe call it a "Fast Injection Skilling Helper" or FISH.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1779
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 23:31:28 -
[6029] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote: a) Exchange of SP not needed to speed training: See Blood Raider boosters b) Drivel - what does this mean? OR are you thinking remapping already trained skills so you can love your toon more - You don't need TSP you need a remapping tool c) d) e) f) h) i) j) k) l) m) -- All require putting in place a system that will allow people to use real life money to gain SP advantage in a game where a normal subscription limits the use of cash to gaining skill points at a set rate. n) A remapping tool would cure this o) Character packager to allow direct sales in game on the market would cure this.
Boosters, re- mappers and a whole character packager will cover all this - Leaving all the rest to fall under the category "I want to allow one subscriber to use real life cash to improve their lot over a another subscriber"
If you want people to be able to use cash to buy SP why not just allow more than one multiple training certificate to be active and just say "pay us $240 and your character will gain SP 20 times faster that the schmuck who thought his subscription alone was enough to stay on par with players" or "pay us $30 and you get 3million SP"
a) Not needed, but that doesn't express any negativity to this approach b) Read it. That's all I can say. If you don't want to engage yourself with basic interpretation of words I'mm not going to keep investing time in addressing you. c) And? I've already addressed how SP inequalities can't be game breaking else SP itself is game breaking. If having SP isn't game breaking, buying SP can't be game breaking. I suppose you may be going for the angle of "buying anything is bad," but again, that ship sailed with PLEX, more relevantly with PLEX + Bazaar.
Also no, money enable the accruing of SP over time. Doubling SP is just a matter of another sub. The relationships between SP and money are and have always been a constant. n) How so considering SP and reputation are unrelated? o) It would, while leaving some of the other benefits unaddressed, thus making it a lesser solution |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 23:52:33 -
[6030] - Quote
A Ingus wrote: SP boosting for actual new players can be done in other and consistent/equal ways.
If current idea won't pass than there is no hope for other chance. Since your are not a newbie you are not interested in passing for any sort of "SP boosting for actual new players" bill.
A Ingus wrote:But really the TSP method CCP is proposing is all about not brand new players and their $. Thanks for info but I already knew that CCP isn't a charity company.
A Ingus wrote:What you call lazy gratification is in my view patient gratification I'm always telling people "I'm not lazy. I'm patient " But they didn't trust me.
Iowa Banshee wrote: Leaving all the rest to fall under the category "I want to allow one subscriber to use real life cash to improve their lot over a another subscriber"
A Ingus teaching us
A Ingus wrote: this is not an sp race game. There is no level 80 skill level, or purchased out of game magical item, contest. To engage in an sp race is to misunderstand what this game is about.
So, Iowa Banshee, don't worry about it. |
|
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
42
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 23:54:13 -
[6031] - Quote
Thanks Tyberius for the continuous attempts to explain where and what the base has to be before we can actually discuss the potential issues that may arise.
I ran out of patience, having a 2 and 3 year old at home takes up a lot of my expandable will to help others. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
276
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 00:55:03 -
[6032] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Has there been any update from CCP concerning this? No. The purpose of this thread was solely to gauge the level of anger. Now they will compare the level of anger vs the extra profit, and make their decision.
The debate should be then if it's worth it to destroy Eve in the long run in order to make a good chunk of change in the short run.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
276
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 01:03:44 -
[6033] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:BTW. Time ago, l already suggested a bypass to the "SP frustration". Suggested to do that by letting players "borrow" SP inmediately, in exchange for a slower SP acquisiton rate afterwards. Say, a player haves 3 months left of subcription and would earn 5 million SP in that period. Let him capitalize 2.5 million inmediately and then half the acquisition rate until the 3 months expire. So he can fly "that ship" now, but any futher improvement will be slower. CCP, you know, could even sell for AUR the necessary device... maybe call it a "Fast Injection Skilling Helper" or FISH.
Not quite right there.
A better option would be if they buy 2 mill SP then they can't train any skills at all for 2 months. The general idea is that it's better to train skills regularly but if you want SP injection immediately then it's gonna take twice as long to train for anything else.
|
A Ingus
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
76
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 02:44:54 -
[6034] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:A Ingus wrote: SP boosting for actual new players can be done in other and consistent/equal ways.
If current idea won't pass than there is no hope for other chance. Since you are not a newbie you are not interested in passing for any sort of "SP boosting for actual new players" bill. Everyone you mock, adroitly in your own mind, was a newbie once. Ponder that truth. And I would bet none of them where as whiney about sp and I want it now as you are.
Like I said you used to start with next to zero and you also had to train the learning skills. You think you have it bad now. But we walked miles uphill in the snow with an arrow sticking out of our knee, and we liked it
And you sound fatalistic. No hope for other chance? Please. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 03:38:34 -
[6035] - Quote
A Ingus wrote: Everyone you mock, adroitly in your own mind, was a newbie once. Ponder that truth. And I would bet none of them where as whiney about sp and I want it now as you are.
I writing here because CCP introduced it, not me. You was a noob but you passed that line long time ago.
A Ingus wrote: Like I said you used to start with next to zero and you also had to train the learning skills. You think you have it bad now. But we walked miles uphill in the snow with an arrow sticking out of our knee, and we liked it
Apparently back then there was no guy with near to 200m SP and 4 accounts.
A Ingus wrote:And you sound fatalistic. No hope for other chance? Please. Bad influence of
A Ingus wrote: I used to have 4 accounts. But after December there will be none. Nobody will get my stuff. It will slowly fade away waiting for the game to die.
Same thing about
Daniela Doran wrote: The debate should be then if it's worth it to destroy Eve in the long run in order to make a good chunk of change in the short run.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6863
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 07:39:11 -
[6036] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:A Ingus wrote: SP boosting for actual new players can be done in other and consistent/equal ways.
If current idea won't pass than there is no hope for other chance. Since you are not a newbie you are not interested in passing for any sort of "SP boosting for actual new players" bill. Not all of us non-newbies are so eager to maintain our sickening advantage over newbies...
General Lootit wrote:A Ingus wrote: this is not an sp race game. There is no level 80 skill level, or purchased out of game magical item, contest. To engage in an sp race is to misunderstand what this game is about.
So, Iowa Banshee, don't worry about it. So apparently not that big of an advantage, just one worth screaming over in order to keep.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4312
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 08:31:49 -
[6037] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:BTW. Time ago, l already suggested a bypass to the "SP frustration". Suggested to do that by letting players "borrow" SP inmediately, in exchange for a slower SP acquisiton rate afterwards. Say, a player haves 3 months left of subcription and would earn 5 million SP in that period. Let him capitalize 2.5 million inmediately and then half the acquisition rate until the 3 months expire. So he can fly "that ship" now, but any futher improvement will be slower. CCP, you know, could even sell for AUR the necessary device... maybe call it a "Fast Injection Skilling Helper" or FISH. Not quite right there. A better option would be if they buy 2 mill SP then they can't train any skills at all for 2 months at the cost of 2 Plexes. The general idea is that it's better to train skills regularly but if you want SP injection immediately then it's gonna take twice as long to train for anything else. They would be allowed to do this only 3 times a year every 2 months.
The real drawback of your idea is that it wouldn't allow Mittens to buy himself into full skills. With my idea, he would just need 20 years worth of subscription first.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
212
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 10:01:02 -
[6038] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: "Anything besides SP over time per character is bad because we say so."
NO that's not how it works - SP over Time per Character is how it works NOW. Yeah, that's exactly what I said. The question being why? What justifies this stance? Iowa Banshee wrote:if you support this change to TSP then the onus is on you to tell us how you "think" it will be better. And then ..... we get to tell you why we "think" your assumptions of how this change will affect the game are either right or wrong. We will either be in agreement, against or suggest an alternative - we do not have say anything about the existing system, we know how that works, we just have to say how we think the proposed change will affect the game.
You could make a numbered list of "Number 1 - I think TSP will be better for the game because" - and we can reply to your assumptions one point at time to avoid troll-rambling or irrelevant anecdotes. Simple, I expect the following with varying degrees of probability a) TSP will aid in speeding training for those that desire it b) TSP will allow for greater association with a players chosen identity c) TSP will reduce the amount necessary to partake of SP purchases via buying whole characters making it more accessible d) TSP will be farmed by those with training idle accounts increasing supply and making the packets approach affordability e) TSP will be offered as a recruitment bonus to various player orgs f) TSP will be sold for isk on the market increasing visibility and availability g) Due to c), d), e) and f), TSP will likely be plentiful and allow greater use of the currently somewhat cost prohibitive character Bazaar method of obtaining SP h) TSP return scaling will support the creation of new chanracters more than the further development of older characters with years of training i) Note that h) does NOT mean that I expect it to not be used by vets for their mains at some level, nor do I think it won't be used for alt creation j) TSP will generate revenue for CCP via the same of extractors and likely PLEX to afford TSP by those not inclined to try to earn isk for them k) TSP will generate greater activity on some level by those who are inclined to grind isk for them l) As a result of k) TSP will allow the skill system to incentivize activity in ways it currently does not m) As a result of PLEX sales for TSP in game PLEX prices may (this is a really big may, to the point of even going the opposite direction depending on extractor price and the number of PLEX consumers born from this change. It's REALLY iffy.) decrease for the increased supply introduced n) TSP disincentivizes reputation dumping via the Bazaar o) TSP automates the rules of the SP transfer process by applying item trade mechanics to them, resulting in less need for human oversight compared to the Bazaar More as I think of it....
a) Incorrect, TSP will aid in speed training those who desire and can afford it b) We already have that, TSP will not affect it c) Ok, makes sense d) Supply will never be a problem if it is profitable, so it is the same as any other industry we already have e) I doubt we will see that often, not many corps who focuses on new players can afford it + who is going to trust new players with such investments f) I do not see how can you put something like this as a benefit, of course it will be sold on market its how CCP planned g) This is pure speculation as the amount of TSP on market mostly depends on profitability of it h) In theory only, because not many new players will be ready to make such investments i) Again, stating default purpose as a benefit? j) And again... k) Yes, push more people into grinding, that is a great benefit to the game....[/sarcasm off] l) True but at which cost, by making MMORPG in multiple single players grinding game? I do not see that as improvement, especially because not having that is one of the things which differentiated even from other mmorpgs m) This is pure speculation and a very bad one. Plex supply is limited, if demand rises prices can only go up. Plus this whole market will surely be controlled by big market players who will intentionally drive prices up n) True, but not sure how many people are really affected by buying char with bad reputation. There are plenty of corps/alliances in eve who do not pay attention to forums, politics, scams, etc where you can join without a problem. Plus you can always prove that you bought that char o) True, still not something crucial
Do you have any real benefit, a game changer for good? Something which will surely help A LOT of player base, not something for 1% of it?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
212
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 10:30:28 -
[6039] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:We all know CCP makes mistakes," is not and will never be a force that can deter CCP from making changes. You admit to knowing this, yet seem to be trying to act against it. That's not a sane stance. It's one you can never win if their will is against you, and makes for anything but convincing reasoning when the person giving it is still subbed.
Sorry, but that argument is anything but.
It was just explanation why considering side effects matters, not a theme for digression. Ie they should really evaluate all side effects in advance before just making decision as obviously the most of them in last years were wrong and they did not have plan how to handle side effects. Or they simply did not have a proper vision of side effects. Still, something we need to point out to them if they cannot realize it on their own.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I'm not having this conversation for CCPs sake. I'm having it because I cannot fathom the mechanical attachment people have to the exact implementation of training. Further I can't understand why most do so when the best endorsement they give is that it's "unique" while overlooking that it's still very unique as proposed.
And no, it's changing one aspect of a system, which people keep saying is a fundamental, but the proposal pretty much proves isn't since the entire rest of the system can withstand the change without adjustment. That makes it essentially not fundamental, but an important factor for some for reasons that still aren't explained.
I am not having this conversation for CCPs sake either. I`m having it because I would prefer game healthy than dead. It is perfectly fine that you cannot understand how other people perceive it as you are commenting from your own ignorant pov, looking at your own interest. Buying sp is not unique, it will make eve same as any other mmorpg which has similar functions (pay to advance).
Tyberius Franklin wrote:So basically a whole lot of anecdote coupled with the failure to actually demonstrate a link between training and player proficiency. Time and proficiency yes, but we aren't using an XP system that rewards practice with progress. That's the breakdown here. What you train and what you do have no specific reason to be interrelated.
Thus a link between SP and player skill cannot be established nor proven correctly paced for anyone much less everyone.
No. Training will give you more proficiency than time. Ie someone who knows what he is doing can defeat someone who has more sp in subjected area, be it pvp, trade or whatever. Ie you spending time to get BS 5 does not mean anything if I can kill you with BS 1 simply because I have better knowledge than you.
And it is not called anecdote, it is experience which comes from spending years in the game and meeting numerous people from all segments of the game.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:And I've written more than my fair share addressing those same supposed issues, exploits and reasons. You don't even need to read the whole thread. Just look at my post history. You'll see why any appeal to review the thread can be discarded as, by my participation alone as evidence, I was there as the arguments were made the n'th time and responded to them like it was the first for much of the thread.
I've been willing to represent my reasonings repeatedly. That you won't do so when their challenges doesn't obligate me to do your legwork.
You have just shown that you have no idea what I am talking about. And I do not blame you, you have not read my posts and I do not care to rewrite them or even link them. Though I find you ignorant or delusional (if you really think you are successfully discarding them without even knowing what they are about). But still you are doing the discussion in civilized manner and that is what distinguishes you from the most of others "proers" who are in the most cases not more than trolls :) As I mentioned I do not think this or any other discussion is actually worth time as decision makers do not really communicate with us and we can go on for years here. At this point, only time can tell who was right. I really hope it would be you because the game would become better (no matter if I like the change or not, main reason for my posting is sake of game), but based on my knowledge and experience I really doubt it.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 10:42:37 -
[6040] - Quote
Eve is 13 years old, They had to set up a department to counter RMT - from accounts being sold, ships modules isk and plex so now they want to add something else to this list, seems a little strange ???
With the character bazaar if the Tengu is buffed to be the most capable combat ship a month from now, there can only be a market for existing Tengu pilots. Under the new system, the only thing standing between you and the latest FoTM will be a few purchases (whether directly from the market, or via aurum between a 'main' and a 'Farmed' alt's). Rich players will be able to chase the dragon like never before - and poor players will suffer more than they already do in a highly competitive environment.
Why don't they just give the new players a proper amount to start with from day one and Just sell skill points ( far less risk to the current market and plex stability ) as this is what its really all about now. At least this way the dev's make more money over the sub and returning players / new players get to be wallet warrior's if this is what drives them.
If this is being introduced to stimulate the game for everyone, then it should be made available to everyone. Under the current proposed system it would have a very exclusive user. |
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
57
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 17:22:02 -
[6041] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:General Lootit wrote:A Ingus wrote: this is not an sp race game. There is no level 80 skill level, or purchased out of game magical item, contest. To engage in an sp race is to misunderstand what this game is about.
So, Iowa Banshee, don't worry about it. So apparently not that big of an advantage, just one worth screaming over in order to keep.
Understood - Will log in immediately and turn off all training |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
42
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 17:39:51 -
[6042] - Quote
He writes:
Tyberius Franklin wrote: b) TSP will allow for greater association with a players chosen identity
And your answer:
Don ZOLA wrote:
b) We already have that, TSP will not affect it
Your answer for a plain and simple claim is completely illogical. This is why you get answers that seem "troll-ish" to you.
In more simpler terms I will translate because the least of goal is to troll you:
With TSP a person is staying on the account, no new character coming in. Therefore if you decided to spam local in Jita with isk doubling offers, your reputation will stay intact and everyone will know that you are a reliable player who loves to help others.
We do not have this feature currently. Right now you can double isk, and when you decide you want to join a mining corp because you are too old to chat all day in local, you sell your character, buy a new one and your revered status is forgotten, unknown to any of your new corpmates.
Do you see now how TSP will support choices&consenquances in greater depth?
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 18:01:21 -
[6043] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: you are commenting from your own ignorant pov ... I have better knowledge than you ... You have just shown that you have no idea what I am talking about. And I do not blame you, you have not read my posts and I do not care to rewrite them or even link them. Though I find you ignorant or delusional (if you really think you are successfully discarding them without even knowing what they are about).
Wow, you are so arrogant. "I am not insulting, just stating obvious" -¬ Don ZOLA
Iowa Banshee wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:General Lootit wrote:A Ingus wrote: this is not an sp race game. There is no level 80 skill level, or purchased out of game magical item, contest. To engage in an sp race is to misunderstand what this game is about.
So, Iowa Banshee, don't worry about it. So apparently not that big of an advantage, just one worth screaming over in order to keep. Understood - Will log in immediately and turn off all training A Ingus, apparently they don't believe you. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
212
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 19:26:26 -
[6044] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:He writes: Tyberius Franklin wrote: b) TSP will allow for greater association with a players chosen identity
And your answer: Don ZOLA wrote:
b) We already have that, TSP will not affect it
Your answer for a plain and simple claim is completely illogical. This is why you get answers that seem "troll-ish" to you. In more simpler terms I will translate because the least of goal is to troll you: With TSP a person is staying on the account, no new character coming in. Therefore if you decided to spam local in Jita with isk doubling offers, your reputation will stay intact and everyone will know that you are a reliable player who loves to help others. We do not have this feature currently. Right now you can double isk, and when you decide you want to join a mining corp because you are too old to chat all day in local, you sell your character, buy a new one and your revered status is forgotten, unknown to any of your new corpmates. Do you see now how TSP will support choices&consenquances in greater depth?
Not sure what is unclear there.
Beside logical mistake you have (people scamming have intact reputation wtf?). You can do the same now or in future. You can sell that character in future in the same way you are selling it now. No matter TSP in it or not. Character bazaar is going to remain in future. You keep acting like it wont, but you got it wrong. They are not removing.
Also, you can stay now on account, same as you can stay in the future. Ie nothing new in that part.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
212
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 19:27:53 -
[6045] - Quote
Stop taking things out of content you lousy troll.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 19:33:00 -
[6046] - Quote
General lootit, You are quite the troll. You took someone's statements and removed there contextual meaning to stir trouble. I hope they see through your BS and remove the posts. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 19:38:30 -
[6047] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: Stop taking things out of content you lousy troll.
Don ZOLA wrote: That was trolling for troll.
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 19:48:10 -
[6048] - Quote
General lootit
You took selected sentences then added to the recipient that he was arrogant. To cause trouble - The definition of a Troll
Very nasty trick, if i was ISD i would just delete your whole nonsense. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1782
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 20:00:50 -
[6049] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: a) TSP will aid in speeding training for those that desire it b) TSP will allow for greater association with a players chosen identity c) TSP will reduce the amount necessary to partake of SP purchases via buying whole characters making it more accessible d) TSP will be farmed by those with training idle accounts increasing supply and making the packets approach affordability e) TSP will be offered as a recruitment bonus to various player orgs f) TSP will be sold for isk on the market increasing visibility and availability g) Due to c), d), e) and f), TSP will likely be plentiful and allow greater use of the currently somewhat cost prohibitive character Bazaar method of obtaining SP h) TSP return scaling will support the creation of new chanracters more than the further development of older characters with years of training i) Note that h) does NOT mean that I expect it to not be used by vets for their mains at some level, nor do I think it won't be used for alt creation j) TSP will generate revenue for CCP via the same of extractors and likely PLEX to afford TSP by those not inclined to try to earn isk for them k) TSP will generate greater activity on some level by those who are inclined to grind isk for them l) As a result of k) TSP will allow the skill system to incentivize activity in ways it currently does not m) As a result of PLEX sales for TSP in game PLEX prices may (this is a really big may, to the point of even going the opposite direction depending on extractor price and the number of PLEX consumers born from this change. It's REALLY iffy.) decrease for the increased supply introduced n) TSP disincentivizes reputation dumping via the Bazaar o) TSP automates the rules of the SP transfer process by applying item trade mechanics to them, resulting in less need for human oversight compared to the Bazaar
More as I think of it....
a) Incorrect, TSP will aid in speed training those who desire and can afford it b) We already have that, TSP will not affect it c) Ok, makes sense d) Supply will never be a problem if it is profitable, so it is the same as any other industry we already have e) I doubt we will see that often, not many corps who focuses on new players can afford it + who is going to trust new players with such investments f) I do not see how can you put something like this as a benefit, of course it will be sold on market its how CCP planned g) This is pure speculation as the amount of TSP on market mostly depends on profitability of it h) In theory only, because not many new players will be ready to make such investments i) Again, stating default purpose as a benefit? j) And again... k) Yes, push more people into grinding, that is a great benefit to the game....[/sarcasm off] l) True but at which cost, by making MMORPG in multiple single players grinding game? I do not see that as improvement, especially because not having that is one of the things which differentiated even from other mmorpgs m) This is pure speculation and a very bad one. Plex supply is limited, if demand rises prices can only go up. Plus this whole market will surely be controlled by big market players who will intentionally drive prices up n) True, but not sure how many people are really affected by buying char with bad reputation. There are plenty of corps/alliances in eve who do not pay attention to forums, politics, scams, etc where you can join without a problem. Plus you can always prove that you bought that char o) True, still not something crucial Do you have any real benefit, a game changer for good? Something which will surely help A LOT of player base, not something for 1% of it? a) Anyone with the knowledge to secure isk from in game, the desire to join a group offering them or to find alternative means of getting isk will be able to participate. That covers pretty much anyone who is not actively seeking to avoid isk in some form or another. b) What we have now is a Bazaar that pits identity and function against each other. This provides an alternate means to get the latter without parting with the former. Thus it promotes greater association with ones identity. d) That's what I stated so I'll count that as an agreement. e) What trust issue exists? Those same players will over time have more capable characters as is and further as the AWOXing crowd has demonstrated that risk is realized as is. f) Because the increase in availability and visibility on the Bazaar are benefits, regardless of whether stated in the op or not. g) No, the amount depends on the number of accounts with wasted training potential which have nothing but potential gain from this on top of profitability encouraging others. h) Considering one of those investments that can be made is learning the game, yeah, we should have that expectation. i)/j) Yes, again, just because it's stated in the op doesn't make it any less beneficial. That's a non-argument. k) Ok, so we don't want people in space doing things? Or are we pretending an option becomes a mandate? l) No, it doesn't make this a grinding game. It gives an optional supplement to normal training. No grind needed because the product isn't needed. Those that desire it will have every means they already engage in to pursue it. Further, the flawed logic here is that every addition to the game that can be traded for isk makes it more of a grinding game by the same reasoning, but no one argues that. m) There was a pretty big explanation there including defining it as highly speculative. You're just pointing out what I already wrote n) Considering how many brought it up as a balancing point for the Bazaar being acceptable I would think it significant, but even if not, so long as it happens the point stands. o) The request wasn't for crucial, just beneficial. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 20:17:02 -
[6050] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote: To cause trouble - The definition of a Troll
Quite casual definition of troll.
Berrice Silf wrote: You took selected sentences then added to the recipient
|
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Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 20:24:05 -
[6051] - Quote
I will not quote your troll posts in the hope they all get removed General lootit. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
57
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 20:32:41 -
[6052] - Quote
I pay a subscription that allows access to EVE for 30 days, in addition it allows me to train SP on one or more of my characters at a set rate.
The ability for people to buy skill points devalues the worth of my SP in relation to my subscription. The ability to buy out of poor training decisions removes consequences and devalues those decisions. The ability to farm SP and sell that training time devalues the actual cost of my subscription.
How much it is worth to me to keep my subscription will depend on how much the above affects me...... and this will be the my last Comment on this subject.
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 21:13:31 -
[6053] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote: The ability to buy out of poor training decisions removes consequences and devalues those decisions.
Iowa Banshee wrote:Some people are against re-mapping skill points on a character - I'm not one of them Some sort of contradiction. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1786
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 21:40:37 -
[6054] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:It was just explanation why considering side effects matters, not a theme for digression. Ie they should really evaluate all side effects in advance before just making decision as obviously the most of them in last years were wrong and they did not have plan how to handle side effects. Or they simply did not have a proper vision of side effects. Still, something we need to point out to them if they cannot realize it on their own. And we're still having that discussion, save the fact that a few fundamental questions asked of you aren't answered.
Quote:I am not having this conversation for CCPs sake either. I`m having it because I would prefer game healthy than dead. It is perfectly fine that you cannot understand how other people perceive it as you are commenting from your own ignorant pov, looking at your own interest. Buying sp is not unique, it will make eve same as any other mmorpg which has similar functions (pay to advance). I've challenged you several times to explain why this would bring about the detriment you claim or more specifically state the reason why inequalities in SP are only not allowable for reasons other than time. You've done everything but that.
Instead you make assumptions about personal benefit, shift into a character attack that literally does everything but address the questions asked of you, then play it off as someone else' ignorance.
So the questions still stand, but given the assumption of self serving malice evident in your tone here I don't expect it since you're either deflecting at this point, don't have an answer, or consider yourself above justifying your position. Either way, you aren't convincing anyone with such an intellectually lazy stance.
Quote:No. Training will give you more proficiency than time. Ie someone who knows what he is doing can defeat someone who has more sp in subjected area, be it pvp, trade or whatever. Ie you spending time to get BS 5 does not mean anything if I can kill you with BS 1 simply because I have better knowledge than you.
And it is not called anecdote, it is experience which comes from spending years in the game and meeting numerous people from all segments of the game. No, it's called anecdote, because it's anecdotal. What you've done is state that you've noticed "x" or seen "y." The thing is you are one player. One player who has met a limited number of players and I'm willing to bet has not in any tangible way tried to link training and experience in any provable fashion. If you had you would have presented it I would think. But you haven't. You made the same mistake that every anecdotal argument makes, that thinking your limited observations are both correct without any means of assuring the data you're getting is accurate or controlled, and further assuming it expands to all players, including the many you've never met.
Personal experience without controls or method is anecdote.
Quote:You have just shown that you have no idea what I am talking about. And I do not blame you, you have not read my posts and I do not care to rewrite them or even link them. Though I find you ignorant or delusional (if you really think you are successfully discarding them without even knowing what they are about). But still you are doing the discussion in civilized manner and that is what distinguishes you from the most of others "proers" who are in the most cases not more than trolls :) As I mentioned I do not think this or any other discussion is actually worth time as decision makers do not really communicate with us and we can go on for years here. At this point, only time can tell who was right. I really hope it would be you because the game would become better (no matter if I like the change or not, main reason for my posting is sake of game), but based on my knowledge and experience I really doubt it. I'm sorry, who am I responding to? Is it you? Wouldn't that suggest the the easiest way to get me to respond to a point is to present it rather than deflect to a 300 page thread that I've been active in for a month and a half?
But if you think it not worthwhile, feel free to stop posting. You save both of us time and effort. I won't have to challenge you to defend your position, you won't have to make excuses to not do so. If you truly think the argument without merit, which is an odd thing to state here as you state otherwise earlier in this same post, the obvious thing to do is stop.
I could also do without the character attacks of needing to be "ignorant" or "self-serving," but I'm becoming more certain that you specifically cannot separate disagreement with deep seated flaws and as such will continue despite the irony of accusing others as trolls.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1787
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 21:52:45 -
[6055] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:I pay a subscription that allows access to EVE for 30 days, in addition it allows me to train SP on one or more of my characters at a set rate.
1) The ability for people to buy skill points devalues the worth of my SP in relation to my subscription. 2) The ability to buy out of poor training decisions removes consequences and devalues those decisions. 3) The ability to farm SP and sell that training time devalues the actual cost of my subscription.
How much it is worth to me to keep my subscription will depend on how much the above affects me...... and this will be the my last Comment on this subject. 1) How is your SP devalued when all other SP is generated the same way? 2) Good thing you can't unless under 5m SP, in which case you still can't. The loss incurred with removing and reallocating your SP preserves the value of decision making. The addition of new skills is the creation of new decisions and need be no further penalized. 3) No, it doesn't. You get nothing less than you've always ever gotten.
All 3 of these complaints do seem to have one thing in common though. They view the sub length as something other and beyond earning SP and having game access. The appear to go beyond both and assume an entitlement to their personal place in the SP hierarchy. It's not that you're losing anything, but rather that you might not be ahead of the same people tomorrow that you are ahead of today.
Or further, they seem to view the whole of the value of game access is the advantage they hold over others. Yet we're the self serving ones on a feature I have no plans to use no less. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6864
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 00:28:25 -
[6056] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:All 3 of these complaints do seem to have one thing in common though. They view the sub length as something other and beyond earning SP and having game access. The appear to go beyond both and assume an entitlement to their personal place in the SP hierarchy. It's not that you're losing anything, but rather that you might not be ahead of the same people tomorrow that you are ahead of today.
Or further, they seem to view the whole of the value of game access is the advantage they hold over others. Yet we're the self serving ones on a feature I have no plans to use no less. Well some bad people might use it to feed newbies SP early on in their (newbies') Eve career which breaks their progression or something?
Like you gotta gear up first before tackling blackwing lair, you know
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 00:48:36 -
[6057] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:All 3 of these complaints do seem to have one thing in common though. They view the sub length as something other and beyond earning SP and having game access. The appear to go beyond both and assume an entitlement to their personal place in the SP hierarchy. It's not that you're losing anything, but rather that you might not be ahead of the same people tomorrow that you are ahead of today.
Or further, they seem to view the whole of the value of game access is the advantage they hold over others. Yet we're the self serving ones on a feature I have no plans to use no less. Well some bad people might use it to feed newbies SP early on in their (newbies') Eve career which breaks their progression or something? Like you gotta gear up first before tackling blackwing lair, you know I'm amazed by ability to create problems from nothing. It's like a magic. |
Alexia Atavuli
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 00:59:33 -
[6058] - Quote
Indifferent to the pros and cons from players old and new.
I plan on utilizing the Extractor and Skill Packet to (1) augment the characters I train for the Character Bazaar, (2) Re-task Alt's that have a bit of redundancy between them, and (3), on occasion, get the main toon ready for a mission/fleet she was otherwise not skilled to -- and the mission/fleet doctrine is hard and fast.
I am sure as in all things, there will be crazy (but rare abuses) -- such as the overnight Tengu pilot. The one with lots of skills and no skills at the same time. And like other things before, we will weather them.
Stay well and Fly Safe! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6864
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 05:34:07 -
[6059] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:All 3 of these complaints do seem to have one thing in common though. They view the sub length as something other and beyond earning SP and having game access. The appear to go beyond both and assume an entitlement to their personal place in the SP hierarchy. It's not that you're losing anything, but rather that you might not be ahead of the same people tomorrow that you are ahead of today.
Or further, they seem to view the whole of the value of game access is the advantage they hold over others. Yet we're the self serving ones on a feature I have no plans to use no less. Well some bad people might use it to feed newbies SP early on in their (newbies') Eve career which breaks their progression or something? Like you gotta gear up first before tackling blackwing lair, you know I'm amazed by ability to create problems from nothing. It's like a magic. It's the magic of defending your entitlements
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 17:21:36 -
[6060] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:General Lootit wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:All 3 of these complaints do seem to have one thing in common though. They view the sub length as something other and beyond earning SP and having game access. The appear to go beyond both and assume an entitlement to their personal place in the SP hierarchy. It's not that you're losing anything, but rather that you might not be ahead of the same people tomorrow that you are ahead of today.
Or further, they seem to view the whole of the value of game access is the advantage they hold over others. Yet we're the self serving ones on a feature I have no plans to use no less. Well some bad people might use it to feed newbies SP early on in their (newbies') Eve career which breaks their progression or something? Like you gotta gear up first before tackling blackwing lair, you know I'm amazed by ability to create problems from nothing. It's like a magic. It's the magic of defending your entitlements Who called to my advocate? Since you are here would be nice if you defend my actual position - right to buy TSP. |
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Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 18:36:41 -
[6061] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:General Lootit wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:All 3 of these complaints do seem to have one thing in common though. They view the sub length as something other and beyond earning SP and having game access. The appear to go beyond both and assume an entitlement to their personal place in the SP hierarchy. It's not that you're losing anything, but rather that you might not be ahead of the same people tomorrow that you are ahead of today.
Or further, they seem to view the whole of the value of game access is the advantage they hold over others. Yet we're the self serving ones on a feature I have no plans to use no less. Well some bad people might use it to feed newbies SP early on in their (newbies') Eve career which breaks their progression or something? Like you gotta gear up first before tackling blackwing lair, you know I'm amazed by ability to create problems from nothing. It's like a magic. It's the magic of defending your entitlements Who called to my advocate? Since you are here would be nice if you defend my actual position - right to buy TSP.
That is funny, There is no such item yet as a TSP - Your just inferring your right to pay 2 advance at present |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 18:48:35 -
[6062] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote: That is funny, There is no such item yet as a TSP
It was introduced so it might be such thing in the future. Your captain
Berrice Silf wrote:Your just inferring you right to pay 2 advance at present I defending my right to play 2 boosting advance. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 18:57:23 -
[6063] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Berrice Silf wrote: That is funny, There is no such item yet as a TSP
It was introduced so it might be such thing in the future. Your captain Berrice Silf wrote:Your just inferring you right to pay 2 advance at present I defending my right to play 2 boosting advance.
It has not been introduced, its purely a discussion at this present time. There are no patch / release notes on it, Your presumption is mere speculation and wishful tro ...... thinking |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 19:04:00 -
[6064] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:It has not been introduced, its purely a discussion at this present time. There are no patch / release notes on it, Your presumption is mere speculation and wishful tro ...... thinking [sarcasm]Yea, all of this people who wrote in this thread didn't consider it like possible future.[/sarcasm] |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 21:19:11 -
[6065] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:It has not been introduced, its purely a discussion at this present time. There are no patch / release notes on it, Your presumption is mere speculation and wishful tro ...... thinking [sarcasm]Yea, all of this people who wrote in this thread didn't consider it like possible future.Even if they did than it just their speculation [/sarcasm]
All of the people who wrote in this thread don't consider it there right to be able buy there way into the game like you. They give there personal representations of how they view it, arguments for and against . After reading through most of it you seem to mimic ,mock and generally misrepresent statements made against it , I couldn't say I've even seen any intellectual comment come from you in this whole thread-naught. Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, probably why trolls are drawn to it like moths around light. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 21:40:22 -
[6066] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:It has not been introduced, its purely a discussion at this present time. There are no patch / release notes on it, Your presumption is mere speculation and wishful tro ...... thinking [sarcasm]Yea, all of this people who wrote in this thread didn't consider it like possible future.Even if they did than it just their speculation [/sarcasm] Berrice Silf wrote: Under the new system, the only thing standing between you and the latest FoTM will be a few purchases (whether directly from the market, or via aurum between a 'main' and a 'Farmed' alt's). Rich players will be able to chase the dragon like never before - and poor players will suffer more than they already do in a highly competitive environment.
"Your presumption is mere speculation" That is not speculation, that's already been worked out about 150 pages ago. If the average pilot is earning 1.5m a month and the clued in pilot is getting very close to 2m a month - If you work on keeping a main under the 50m threshold with 2 farm alts on an account with it you can interchange skills between the 3 with very limited losses incurred. Those 3 could become any FoTM within a few minutes. Like having a personal hot swap character building service at your fingertips. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 21:43:39 -
[6067] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote: I couldn't say I've even seen any intellectual comment come from you in this whole thread ... All of the people who wrote in this thread don't consider it there right to be able buy there way into the game like you.
If you had really read my posts than you must know that I don't even paying for sub.
Berrice Silf wrote:They give there personal representations of how they view it, arguments for and against . How thin edge between arguments and speculation.
Berrice Silf wrote:Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, probably why trolls are drawn to it like moths around light. Can I qoute you when someone from your side will be sarcastic? Like
Berrice Silf wrote: wishful tro ...... thinking |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 22:03:24 -
[6068] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote: That is not speculation, that's already been worked out about 150 pages ago. If the average pilot is earning 1.5m a month and the clued in pilot is getting very close to 2m a month - If you work on keeping a main under the 50m threshold with 2 farm alts on an account with it you can interchange skills between the 3 with very limited losses incurred. Those 3 could become any FoTM within a few minutes. Like having a personal hot swap character building service at your fingertips.
"How thin edge between arguments and speculation." Maybe next time you will be more thoughtful before calling opponents opinion "just your speculation" because I can do same thing with yours.
Right reaction on it is
Alexia Atavuli wrote: I am sure as in all things, there will be crazy (but rare) abuses -- such as the overnight Tengu pilot. The one with lots of skills and no skills at the same time. And like other things before, we will weather them.
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 22:06:19 -
[6069] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Berrice Silf wrote: I couldn't say I've even seen any intellectual comment come from you in this whole thread ... All of the people who wrote in this thread don't consider it there right to be able buy there way into the game like you.
If you had really read my posts than you must know that I don't even paying for sub.
My previous statement about intellect lends itself well to this very point, Saying you do not pay a sub has nothing at all to do with the fact that you say : Nobody is going to tell me how to play my game my way and if i want to use TSP to speed my training up i will. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 22:13:08 -
[6070] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Berrice Silf wrote: That is not speculation, that's already been worked out about 150 pages ago. If the average pilot is earning 1.5m a month and the clued in pilot is getting very close to 2m a month - If you work on keeping a main under the 50m threshold with 2 farm alts on an account with it you can interchange skills between the 3 with very limited losses incurred. Those 3 could become any FoTM within a few minutes. Like having a personal hot swap character building service at your fingertips.
"How thin edge between arguments and speculation." Maybe next time you will be more thoughtful before calling opponents opinion "just your speculation" because I can do same thing with yours. Right reaction on it is Alexia Atavuli wrote: I am sure as in all things, there will be crazy (but rare) abuses -- such as the overnight Tengu pilot. The one with lots of skills and no skills at the same time. And like other things before, we will weather them.
I take it you must be quite new to this game with the naivety in your ramblings, Having 3 characters at an optimum 49.5m skill points each. The combinations you could achieve with those is staggering and it's certainly not speculation on current information provided by the developers. Once you hit this point all earned packets could either be stored for other uses or sold. |
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
213
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 22:13:39 -
[6071] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: a) Anyone with the knowledge to secure isk from in game, the desire to join a group offering them or to find alternative means of getting isk will be able to participate. That covers pretty much anyone who is not actively seeking to avoid isk in some form or another. b) What we have now is a Bazaar that pits identity and function against each other. This provides an alternate means to get the latter without parting with the former. Thus it promotes greater association with ones identity. d) That's what I stated so I'll count that as an agreement. e) What trust issue exists? Those same players will over time have more capable characters as is and further as the AWOXing crowd has demonstrated that risk is realized as is. f) Because the increase in availability and visibility on the Bazaar are benefits, regardless of whether stated in the op or not. g) No, the amount depends on the number of accounts with wasted training potential which have nothing but potential gain from this on top of profitability encouraging others. h) Considering one of those investments that can be made is learning the game, yeah, we should have that expectation. i)/j) Yes, again, just because it's stated in the op doesn't make it any less beneficial. That's a non-argument. k) Ok, so we don't want people in space doing things? Or are we pretending an option becomes a mandate? l) No, it doesn't make this a grinding game. It gives an optional supplement to normal training. No grind needed because the product isn't needed. Those that desire it will have every means they already engage in to pursue it. Further, the flawed logic here is that every addition to the game that can be traded for isk makes it more of a grinding game by the same reasoning, but no one argues that. m) There was a pretty big explanation there including defining it as highly speculative. You're just pointing out what I already wrote n) Considering how many brought it up as a balancing point for the Bazaar being acceptable I would think it significant, but even if not, so long as it happens the point stands. o) The request wasn't for crucial, just beneficial.
a) This is one of the reasons why I am calling you ignorant. You look only through your own POV. If you have isk, everyone has it. Do you know that average isk amount on active characters is ~500mils? So obviously not everyone has the time, knowledge, skills, willingness to make isk. And this will push even more people in grinding, like there is not enough b)No, what we have now are original characters as well. I have this character since 2003, I am quite identified with it. Again, ignorant view that if you bought char everyone did d) I said there is no additional benefit, market item will "behave" as any other market item? Btw, by your logic plexes should be cheaper than ever since supply is bigger than ever but it obviously is not like that? e) So you are saying that corps will recruit new players and give them hundreds millions of isk? If you do not see what is wrong with that assumption I really cant be arsed to explain you. f) Only if you think on visibility over char bazaar? In every other way it will be the same like for any other market item g) No, the amount of people willing to sell their "extra" sp will depend only on price. If it is cheap they will wait till it goes up in price rather than sell it for peanuts. h) Learning the game by buying sp? You kidding? i/j) I did not say it is "less beneficial" (even though i do think its quite opposite) but reason for putting that on the list can be only to make the list look bigger k) We want them of course, but things which will make them stick to the game, not get bored of grinding and quit before experiencing everything the game can offer and eventually finding their own place in the universe l) For this you have too look out of space game terms. It is about behaviorism, same like consumers society nowadays. It will push more people in grinding isk since EVERYONE wants more SP. m) Highly speculative in the wrong direction with no touch with reality. That is why I had to point it out. One thing is certain, it will never be cheap n) If bazaar wasnt "acceptable" it would not work, no one would purchase chars. If that was the real bottleneck it would be quite easy to fix it, sold chars can change names for fixed price and have mark in their employment history that they were sold or something like that. This does not fix it as bazaar will still work as people will surely continue buying chars above 25/50//80 mil sp since they will be cheaper than developing your own one instantly. o) Ok, I can agree that couple % of players might find it beneficial
So, back to my question in that post: Do you have any real benefit, a game changer for good? Something which will surely help A LOT of player base, not something for 1% of it?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 22:26:43 -
[6072] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote: Saying you do not pay a sub has nothing at all to do with the fact that you say
Thats why I trying to qoute important sentences
Berrice Silf wrote: comment come from you in this whole thread ... right to be able buy there way into the game like you.
I just doubt that you had read whole theard.
Berrice Silf wrote: Nobody is going to tell me how to play my game my way and if i want to use TSP to speed my training up i will.
Please quote my actual words or I consider it as nasty "straw man" trick.
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 22:36:49 -
[6073] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote: I take it you must be quite new to this game with the naivety in your ramblings, Having 3 characters at an optimum 49.5m skill points each. The combinations you could achieve with those is staggering and it's certainly not speculation on current information provided by the developers. Once you hit this point all earned packets could either be stored for other uses or sold.
I should be upset with that? |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
213
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 22:50:26 -
[6074] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:And we're still having that discussion, save the fact that a few fundamental questions asked of you aren't answered.
Yea, I had to draw it for you to be sure you can understand. Which fundamental questions I have not answered?
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I've challenged you several times to explain why this would bring about the detriment you claim or more specifically state the reason why inequalities in SP are only not allowable for reasons other than time. You've done everything but that.
Instead you make assumptions about personal benefit, shift into a character attack that literally does everything but address the questions asked of you, then play it off as someone else' ignorance.
So the questions still stand, but given the assumption of self serving malice evident in your tone here I don't expect it since you're either deflecting at this point, don't have an answer, or consider yourself above justifying your position. Either way, you aren't convincing anyone with such an intellectually lazy stance.
I have pointed you to go and read my posts on this subject multiple times. Yet you are ignorant enough to do it but "attack" me because I am too lazy to copy/paste them? Bravo, shows that you do not care about discussion but "your win" only.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:No, it's called anecdote, because it's anecdotal. What you've done is state that you've noticed "x" or seen "y." The thing is you are one player. One player who has met a limited number of players and I'm willing to bet has not in any tangible way tried to link training and experience in any provable fashion. If you had you would have presented it I would think. But you haven't. You made the same mistake that every anecdotal argument makes, that thinking your limited observations are both correct without any means of assuring the data you're getting is accurate or controlled, and further assuming it expands to all players, including the many you've never met.
Personal experience without controls or method is anecdote.
Ok, since we are all living anecdotical lives and our own experience drives us through business, love, life etc I have equalized it with the game experience as well. My experience have shown me the heights in every aspect of the game I wanted to explore. I never made power point presentation of it though so you are right, I do not have any tangible way. Even though you are going further and claiming something I did not say, ie I did not generalize I just said that there was a small percent of those whose skills were above their sp. No need to "put the word" in my mouth, thank you.
On the other hand, I assume you have something remotely resembling actual proof that proficiency and training times are not linked in any manner? Since you are insisting in researches done in some tangible way, please provide me the one you have related to Eve Online I am really eager to read it. Thanks in advance.
Tyberius Franklin wrote: I'm sorry, who am I responding to? Is it you? Wouldn't that suggest the the easiest way to get me to respond to a point is to present it rather than deflect to a 300 page thread that I've been active in for a month and a half?
But if you think it not worthwhile, feel free to stop posting. You save both of us time and effort. I won't have to challenge you to defend your position, you won't have to make excuses to not do so. If you truly think the argument without merit, which is an odd thing to state here as you state otherwise earlier in this same post, the obvious thing to do is stop.
I could also do without the character attacks of needing to be "ignorant" or "self-serving," but I'm becoming more certain that you specifically cannot separate disagreement with deep seated flaws and as such will continue despite the irony of accusing others as trolls.
It`s not worthwhile, but I still have to point out on some BS i see (like TSP is same like we already have etc). In order to challenge me to defend my position you would have to go and read my posts on this subject first. I am looking forward to those challenges.
Other than that please help to provide questions I have not answered? If you are referring to the ones where you demanded official research proofs, please be kind and provide the researches which claim otherwise. So I can reply in professional manner, chapter by chapter :)
I am sorry, but sooner you realize you are ignorant and then realize that you cannot look only through your own perspective, you will grow as a person. You should actually be thankful for me pointing that out :) In previous post I have even gave you clear example of that (under a).
Please keep in mind that I did not refer to you as a troll. Never. I actually think you are quite smart guy, just too egocentrical and looking through his own eyes only. I can understand that your skills in game are progressing faster than your sp and that that is the main reason for pushing this, but again not everyone is you and not everyone has the same abilities. This is MASS mporg, we need MASS to keep it alive and introducing something that might help 1% of player base is not something mass needs. Especially not when the potential side effects are huge. So please, once again, I am not trying to insult you to get you out of discussion. I just want you to look wider. If you want good change for the game think from POV`s of other players as well. If you are looking only for personal gain, then we will never be able to agree about anything.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1802
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 23:09:19 -
[6075] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:a) This is one of the reasons why I am calling you ignorant. You look only through your own POV. If you have isk, everyone has it. Do you know that average isk amount on active characters is ~500mils? So obviously not everyone has the time, knowledge, skills, willingness to make isk. And this will push even more people in grinding, like there is not enough b)No, what we have now are original characters as well. I have this character since 2003, I am quite identified with it. Again, ignorant view that if you bought char everyone did d) I said there is no additional benefit, market item will "behave" as any other market item? Btw, by your logic plexes should be cheaper than ever since supply is bigger than ever but it obviously is not like that? e) So you are saying that corps will recruit new players and give them hundreds millions of isk? If you do not see what is wrong with that assumption I really cant be arsed to explain you. f) Only if you think on visibility over char bazaar? In every other way it will be the same like for any other market item g) No, the amount of people willing to sell their "extra" sp will depend only on price. If it is cheap they will wait till it goes up in price rather than sell it for peanuts. h) Learning the game by buying sp? You kidding? i/j) I did not say it is "less beneficial" (even though i do think its quite opposite) but reason for putting that on the list can be only to make the list look bigger k) We want them of course, but things which will make them stick to the game, not get bored of grinding and quit before experiencing everything the game can offer and eventually finding their own place in the universe l) For this you have too look out of space game terms. It is about behaviorism, same like consumers society nowadays. It will push more people in grinding isk since EVERYONE wants more SP. m) Highly speculative in the wrong direction with no touch with reality. That is why I had to point it out. One thing is certain, it will never be cheap n) If bazaar wasnt "acceptable" it would not work, no one would purchase chars. If that was the real bottleneck it would be quite easy to fix it, sold chars can change names for fixed price and have mark in their employment history that they were sold or something like that. This does not fix it as bazaar will still work as people will surely continue buying chars above 25/50//80 mil sp since they will be cheaper than developing your own one instantly. o) Ok, I can agree that couple % of players might find it beneficial
So, back to my question in that post: Do you have any real benefit, a game changer for good? Something which will surely help A LOT of player base, not something for 1% of it? a) No, I make no assumption about whether or not someone has isk. The only assumption I make is that people are free to pursue isk and/or the knowledge of how to better pursue isk. That a person chooses not to do so or chooses to do so for a minimum of what thy need doesn't mean others should be denied the option to do so. The reason your assumption of ignorance is itself ignorant is because you've conflated being able to earn isk at will with constantly having an abundance then assuming I'm in the boat of having that abundance. b) If you want to selectively ignore the effects of the Bazaar, fine. I'm not willing to pretend it has no effect on new players when CCP says it does due to them being active amongst the buyers. d) The benefits of being on the market are the benefits of being on the market, yes. Which is a benefit over the Bazaar system and it's current non-existant alternatives. That other items already have this benefit doesn't detract from that. e) I'm saying that some already do, so why would they stop? If you're pretending this doesn't happen via SRP for those orgs that offer it maybe you should reconsider the extent of your experience. I've been in corps that offered free T3s w/ subs for fleet purposes after only being there 2 weeks. Does that means everyone will? No, but that wasn't the claim. f) See d) g) So youre saying that those with non-training accounts that are already PLEXing from other activities will snub the extra income and internally speculate to a reasonable degree with such a low barrier of entry (hint: There's a reason no one speculates on common items outside of game play mechanical changes)? Please feel free to explain. h) No, learning the game to secure isk to buy SP. i/j) A list of benefits was asked for, not a list of prior unstated benefits k) Considering the current scenario often consists of simply waiting out skills while docked and logger out is a thing, even grinding gets people in game, doing things, and thus interacting, and from there more likely finding their place. l) For the reasons above that's in every way better than simply waiting that SP out since currently there is a complete divorce between a thing everyone wants and the combined things everyone does. m) Considering the claims of "buying progress" and "P2W" the influx of PLEX should be significant, which will depress in game prices. That's a logical conclusion based on something we both acknowledge, the PLEX > SP is a path some will use. Further, if you're right and SP will only be sold at PLEX profitability it ensure that PLEX introduced to buy SP will outnumber PLEX used to create TSP. It's speculative but at the basic level the math works out. n) No claim was made that at any level of total SP bought would be cheaper with TSP. With a set AUR cost for extractor there is no way that could be true. But that was never a stated benefit. And no, it's not a bottleneck either, it's a side effect and your solution creates new openings for abuse (for the price of 2 PLEX you go from "criminal" to "unknown").
To your question, this list. But I guess when dismissiveness and unfounded assumptions are your basis for interpretation it's easy to miss. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1802
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 23:31:30 -
[6076] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Yea, I had to draw it for you to be sure you can understand. Which fundamental questions I have not answered? The ones in the very next portion of the quote. For your convenience:
"explain why this would bring about the detriment you claim or more specifically state the reason why inequalities in SP are only not allowable for reasons other than time"
Quote:I have pointed you to go and read my posts on this subject multiple times. Yet you are ignorant enough to do it but "attack" me because I am too lazy to copy/paste them? Bravo, shows that you do not care about discussion but "your win" only. So basically your defense for not posting your points is to point out how easy it would be to do so yet still refuse? Then insult someone else for not doing it for you? Yeah, that's intellectually lazy.
Quote:Ok, since we are all living anecdotical lives and our own experience drives us through business, love, life etc I have equalized it with the game experience as well. My experience have shown me the heights in every aspect of the game I wanted to explore. I never made power point presentation of it though so you are right, I do not have any tangible way. Even though you are going further and claiming something I did not say, ie I did not generalize I just said that there was a small percent of those whose skills were above their sp. No need to "put the word" in my mouth, thank you.
On the other hand, I assume you have something remotely resembling actual proof that proficiency and training times are not linked in any manner? Since you are insisting in researches done in some tangible way, please provide me the one you have related to Eve Online I am really eager to read it. Thanks in advance. Yeah, we are living anecdotal lives save when we put forth specific and targeted efforts to gather data relevant and accurate on a larger scale. You've provided nothing that suggests you've done that. Rather, you looked to memories gathered while not going through that effort and are now presenting them as proof despite again, having gone through any effort to make sure it's not.
And yes, you are making a statement for all players, which is that they fall into your observations, on top of the assumptions that your observations are correct. It doesn't matter what % you place above or below the rule because you're still placing them within this logic you've created. So no, it's not placing words in your mouth since yes, you did make a series of statements about the whole of SP vs proficiency.
As for me, I'm fine being honest and saying that while I've seen a fair and good number of people well outpace the proficiency their SP says they should have, it's highly anecdotal and thus not worth much of anything.
Quote:It`s not worthwhile, but I still have to point out on some BS i see (like TSP is same like we already have etc). In order to challenge me to defend my position you would have to go and read my posts on this subject first. I am looking forward to those challenges.
Other than that please help to provide questions I have not answered? If you are referring to the ones where you demanded official research proofs, please be kind and provide the researches which claim otherwise. So I can reply in professional manner, chapter by chapter :)
I am sorry, but sooner you realize you are ignorant and then realize that you cannot look only through your own perspective, you will grow as a person. You should actually be thankful for me pointing that out :) In previous post I have even gave you clear example of that (under a).
Please keep in mind that I did not refer to you as a troll. Never. I actually think you are quite smart guy, just too egocentrical and looking through his own eyes only. I can understand that your skills in game are progressing faster than your sp and that that is the main reason for pushing this, but again not everyone is you and not everyone has the same abilities. This is MASS mporg, we need MASS to keep it alive and introducing something that might help 1% of player base is not something mass needs. Especially not when the potential side effects are huge. So please, once again, I am not trying to insult you to get you out of discussion. I just want you to look wider. If you want good change for the game think from POV`s of other players as well. If you are looking only for personal gain, then we will never be able to agree about anything. I keep giving you the same questions, you either refuse to answer or deflect to 300 pages of thread. I'm not going to oblige you being to lazy to copy/paste.
While still saying it's both worthwhile and not worthwhile in the same post. It either is for addressing the things you see as fallacies, or isn't. Make a choice because we're both wasting words on your self contradictions at this point.
Also, I wasn't saying you were calling me a troll. I was saying it was amusing how trollish you were being while calling others trolls. A trend you seem fine with continuing the former part of.
One other thing that just struck me as funny, you keep saying my viewpoint comes from a myopic way of thinking, but it seems you have a pretty clearly myopic view of me. Most of your posts that do address any point try to default to this "if you personally weren't 'x' you would see this differently" stance. Try separating yourself from that for a sec, first because it increases the quality of your arguments, second because you've been almost completely wrong. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.06 00:27:16 -
[6077] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: I have this character since 2003, I am quite identified with it. Again, ignorant view that if you bought char everyone did
I was wrong... you are not only arrogant, you ignorant too because if you did't bougth any char from bazaar it doesn't mean that others doing things in way you do.
Don ZOLA wrote: I am sorry, but sooner you realize you are ignorant and then realize that you cannot look only through your own perspective, you will grow as a person. You should actually be thankful for me pointing that out :)
You should actually be thankful for me pointing that out that you are arrogant too.
Don ZOLA wrote: Please keep in mind that I did not refer to you as a troll. Never. I actually think you are quite smart guy, just too egocentrical and looking through his own eyes only.
Please keep in mind that I did not refer to you as a dumbass. I actually think you are quite nice guy, just sometimes you become too arrogant concerned troll
Don ZOLA wrote: I am not trying to insult you to get you out of discussion. I just want you to look wider
Do you think angry people looking wider? Or do you think people can accept with no emotion when you calling them delusional and ignorant?
Don ZOLA wrote: This is MASS mporg, we need MASS to keep it alive and introducing something that might help 1% of player base is not something mass needs.
You have no actual statistic only repeated "1%". I could say you are one from 1% of thoose who have enormous SP baggage |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1805
|
Posted - 2015.12.06 00:44:26 -
[6078] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: I have this character since 2003, I am quite identified with it. Again, ignorant view that if you bought char everyone did
I was wrong... you are not only arrogant, you ignorant too because if you did't bougth any char from bazaar it doesn't mean that others doing things in way you do. I wanted to do a call out on that one as another example of his strawman construction, but post character limit. Beyond that though, what I'm getting from this is he's been around since the beginning. That could well mean he's never had any need of the Bazaar since it could never provide him what he didn't already have in any enticing manner.
As such he's basically saying that since he doesn't have any conflict as a result of his tenure, saying others might makes you "ignorant" and means you bought a character.
Don, you're making up strawmen in a pretty obvious fashion here and further actually being myopic. I've never bought a character, but that doesn't mean I can't strive to understand the motivations of those who have or are considering it. You seem unwilling to make that same effort given your post here, and further assume no one else can or will, thus they must have bought a character if the don't agree with you.
You assume that if a person advocates something be bought for isk they have an abundance of it to use for that purpose.
You assume from your anecdote that experience tends to match SP. Edit: And further never actually stated why that would actually matter in a game that gives you room to fail.
To be frank, this is the quality I'm working with and you think this reasoning so sound that I should do the legwork in finding it's foundation. Problem is I find it to be biased and horribly unsound and expect the foundation to be just as poor given what I'm getting now. Given that I'm not willing to expend that effort only to find there's nothing of merit there. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6865
|
Posted - 2015.12.06 09:50:51 -
[6079] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Given that I'm not willing to expend that effort only to find there's nothing of merit there. This is basically eveo: the kneejerk portal.
There's not much of merit here
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.12.06 18:41:09 -
[6080] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:you say: Nobody is going to tell me how to play my game my way and if i want to use TSP to speed my training up i will.
Please quote my actual words or I consider it as nasty " straw man" trick.
General Lootit wrote:I'm can pursuit only one goal at the time. And I want to trade my active playing hours(isk) for boosting my SP to be able progress faster at my plan.
General Lootit wrote:Only reason why I'm writing here so much and don't playing EVE is traning quee which I can't accselerate. I rather earn some isks and dump them into SP than waiting until training is done.
General Lootit wrote:I give you my personal reason why it must be implemented. I need a better way than bazaar to exchange my isks for SP. Now I waiting while skill traning happens to change my in-game activity. I rather play more to earn isks for Packet than waiting until ends of time.
Sort of the same theme running through them all me me me me, Its massive multiplayer not massive single player game, ive saved the best one for last but will have to stick it into another post to many quotes. |
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.12.06 18:45:09 -
[6081] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:When I joined Eve(about 25 days ago) most of players had much more SP than me and I have no chance at all to catch them what ever I do.
So your entire eve career spans a few months, What an insightful person you must be to glean your knowledge onto everyone and share your vast experiences |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.06 19:06:53 -
[6082] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:General Lootit wrote:When I joined Eve(about 25 days ago) most of players had much more SP than me and I have no chance at all to catch them what ever I do. So your entire eve career spans a few months, What an insightful person you must be to glean your knowledge onto everyone and share your vast experiences
Berrice Silf wrote: Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, probably why trolls are drawn to it like moths around light.
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.12.06 19:09:22 -
[6083] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Berrice Silf wrote: Sort of the same theme running through them all me me me me, Its massive multiplayer not massive single player game, ive saved the best one for last but will have to stick it into another post to many quotes.
You could use bold font for quoting to bypass a limit. I foreced to post messages like this becuse some people keep telling that it won't help noobs and I giving them counter example. And as I said General Lootit wrote: I have no permit to speaking for all of us(noobs) ... and I'm pretty much sure you too.
So you can take your straw man and stick it where a monkey sticks it's nuts, Your just a nasty little troll as many have pointed out before. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.06 19:20:04 -
[6084] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:General Lootit wrote:Berrice Silf wrote: Sort of the same theme running through them all me me me me, Its massive multiplayer not massive single player game, ive saved the best one for last but will have to stick it into another post to many quotes.
You could use bold font for quoting to bypass a limit. I foreced to post messages like this becuse some people keep telling that it won't help noobs and I giving them counter example. And as I said General Lootit wrote: I have no permit to speaking for all of us(noobs) ... and I'm pretty much sure you too.
So you can take your straw man and stick it where a monkey sticks it's nuts, Your just a nasty little troll as many have pointed out before. I should warn you
Quote:He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.12.06 21:02:52 -
[6085] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you. Ever heard of locator agents troll, you just might meet that monster your talking about |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
214
|
Posted - 2015.12.06 21:16:57 -
[6086] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Sorry but I had to delete your quote to have enough characters for post
To your question, this list. But I guess when dismissiveness and unfounded assumptions are your basis for interpretation it's easy to miss.
a)You are going in semantics again, moving away from the point. My point was that if you have "access" to it as ability to earn it and afford TSP it does not mean everyone has it. Ie it does not matter if you have it in your wallet at the moment or in investments or you just know how to make it. No need to play it dumb. And I have shown you that there is no need for such assumption by providing concrete numbers. Everyone has ability to earn isk, but there are huge differences in efficiency, time being devoted to that etc. And what you are stating is pure elitism, "everyone is given a same chance, who cares why someone cannot do it" and something which was against principles of EVE since start. Ie time managed sp system was there to give everyone same "rights" regardless of how much time they can devote to the game, that is one of the main reasons why eve got it niche. While you are pushing it to favor the more active ones. And I highly doubt you would push it if you were not able to earn it yourself b) I do not want to ignore them, I just pointed out they are not so big. Plus bazaar will remain as it is and still be more used than TSP. On the "ignorance" comment that troll added which you referred later on, I just gave example and there are thousands same like that and countered your original statement that that is some benefit we will gain with TSP. I just pointed out it is already doable d) Ok, now I can agree with that when put that way, it will have more visibility than bazaar e) Again, looking through your own eyes. You were offered T3. Were you new player? I highly doubt it since new players cannot really fly them... So why involve unrelated bs as an argument? I will repeat again, no corp will give hundreds of millions to new players. f) see d) :) g) I am saying that budget for plexes is limited. Ie the amount of money people spend on plexes wont increase by adding another use for plexes. People who need to buy plexes with isk will increase in numbers for sure, but it does not mean amount of plexes will be sold unless there is increase in price of it. Which will probably grow faster than supply, as the supply can stretch only a bit up, demand will grow much more which means prices are going to keep going up. And then we will see more and more people quiting. h) At what point you expect them to purchase them? Since on the start they cannot earn isk to secure sp, they would need to purchase it with money. How many would be willing to do that? It seems that we need to define what we mean by new player. As it seems that our idea is different. For me new players are people who play up to 6 months of playing. Unless heavily guided and instructed, only rare of them will be able to earn enough for their play and sp i/j) I just feel it is wrong to add something like that to the list as it give impression that you just want bigger list k) If that is current scenario, I pity such players. There are things to do in eve since day 1, if you choose to be bored you cannot blame the game mechanics for that l) see k) m) see g), plex can only go up in prices with this and the TSP price will follow n) It will be cheaper due to diminishing returns. Simple as that. Regarding my comment on fixing char purchase I just gave shallow random ideas which have crossed my mind, I did not really think of solution for it as this is not topic for that.
There is not a single point on the list which will be beneficial for A LOT of players. What dismisiveness and unfounded assumptions I made, if you do not want to understand something it is really not my fault.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.06 21:25:09 -
[6087] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:General Lootit wrote:He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you. Ever heard of locator agents troll, you just might meet that monster your talking about Sorry, didn't notice. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
214
|
Posted - 2015.12.06 21:59:52 -
[6088] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:The ones in the very next portion of the quote. For your convenience:
"explain why this would bring about the detriment you claim or more specifically state the reason why inequalities in SP are only not allowable for reasons other than time"
So basically your defense for not posting your points is to point out how easy it would be to do so yet still refuse? Then insult someone else for not doing it for you? Yeah, that's intellectually lazy.
But I have already posted them, they are already in this thread. You are blaming me for being lazy to search them and link them for you, while you are lazy to search them and read them on your own?
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Yeah, we are living anecdotal lives save when we put forth specific and targeted efforts to gather data relevant and accurate on a larger scale. You've provided nothing that suggests you've done that. Rather, you looked to memories gathered while not going through that effort and are now presenting them as proof despite again, having gone through any effort to make sure it's not.
And yes, you are making a statement for all players, which is that they fall into your observations, on top of the assumptions that your observations are correct. It doesn't matter what % you place above or below the rule because you're still placing them within this logic you've created. So no, it's not placing words in your mouth since yes, you did make a series of statements about the whole of SP vs proficiency.
As for me, I'm fine being honest and saying that while I've seen a fair and good number of people well outpace the proficiency their SP says they should have, it's highly anecdotal and thus not worth much of anything.
So, you do not have any official data presented in tangible way but you blame me for the same? Interesting. And if both yours and mine experience are not worth of anything, then how we can discuss about it? My main point in sp vs proficiency is that is not something which creates big bottleneck as there is always things to do in eve regardless of sp. So even though some players would surely utilize TSP it is not game changer for anyone.
And I am being honest all the time. I have no reason at all to "fight" beside game`s sake and that is only reason why I am posting. I am afraid that current direction is going to make the game worse. And I want CCP to keep taking my money :)
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I keep giving you the same questions, you either refuse to answer or deflect to 300 pages of thread. I'm not going to oblige you being to lazy to copy/paste.
While still saying it's both worthwhile and not worthwhile in the same post. It either is for addressing the things you see as fallacies, or isn't. Make a choice because we're both wasting words on your self contradictions at this point.
Also, I wasn't saying you were calling me a troll. I was saying it was amusing how trollish you were being while calling others trolls. A trend you seem fine with continuing the former part of.
One other thing that just struck me as funny, you keep saying my viewpoint comes from a myopic way of thinking, but it seems you have a pretty clearly myopic view of me. Most of your posts that do address any point try to default to this "if you personally weren't 'x' you would see this differently" stance. Try separating yourself from that for a sec, first because it increases the quality of your arguments, second because you've been almost completely wrong.
Again, you blame me to being lazy while you are lazy on your own to find them and read them. Starts to be funny :)
I am not sure why does it looks like I claim both, must be due to my engrish skills. It is definitely not worthwhile as we are "fighting" for totally different points. I am fighting for the sake of the game, you are fighting for your own interest.
There was only ~5 ppl I called trolls in this thread. And they were obvious trolls not just by the posting but because a lot of their posts got deleted. And if my pointing out that you should read my posts before discussing in order to understand my point in details is trolling, then so be it. It just shows me that your main reason for discussing with me is not to understand each other and then discuss but only to annul my posting by whatever means necessary in order to "win the war" for your personal cause.
And that is one of the reasons why it is not worthwhile to post. Reasoning behind our posting seems to be totally different. Because if you wanted to discuss for the sake of game you would go and read my WOT`s on this subject. Another major reason why it is not worthwhile is that CCP is coming with this change regardless if we agree with all your claims or all my claims. I just wrote side effects which will hit the game after this change no matter if you want to agree or not (would demand to read them first though ).
Please tell me what I am wrong about you:
1. Above average ingame capability 2. Smart 3. Ignorant (looking through his own POV)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
214
|
Posted - 2015.12.06 22:04:35 -
[6089] - Quote
Taking things out of context again, I hoped your trolling skills would improve :/
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.06 22:12:15 -
[6090] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: Taking things out of context again, I hoped your trolling skills would improve :/
Teach me, master. |
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
214
|
Posted - 2015.12.06 22:17:51 -
[6091] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: I have this character since 2003, I am quite identified with it. Again, ignorant view that if you bought char everyone did
I was wrong... you are not only arrogant, you ignorant too because if you did't bougth any char from bazaar it doesn't mean that others doing things in way you do. I wanted to do a call out on that one as another example of his character fallacy construction, but post character limit. Beyond that though, what I'm getting from this is he's been around since the beginning. That could well mean he's never had any need of the Bazaar since it could never provide him what he didn't already have in any enticing manner. As such he's basically saying that since he doesn't have any conflict as a result of his tenure, saying others might makes you "ignorant" and means you bought a character. Don, you're making up ideal opponents in a pretty obvious fashion here and further actually being myopic. I've never bought a character, but that doesn't mean I can't strive to understand the motivations of those who have or are considering it. You seem unwilling to make that same effort given your post here, and further assume no one else can or will, thus they must have bought a character if the don't agree with you. You assume that if a person advocates something be bought for isk they have an abundance of it to use for that purpose. You assume from your anecdote that experience tends to match SP. Edit: And further never actually stated why that would actually matter in a game that gives you room to fail. To be frank, this is the quality I'm working with and you think this reasoning so sound that I should do the legwork in finding it's foundation. Problem is I find it to be biased and horribly unsound and expect the foundation to be just as poor given what I'm getting now. Given that I'm not willing to expend that effort only to find there's nothing of merit there.
I already explained in previous post. I gave you just one example that you are wrong. There are numerous players who sticked to their original characters.
I have used char bazaar, that can be easily found by search button. For both sales and purchases.
Regarding experience and sp, I can say in average it is quite fine. We would not need 13 years to start pushing for that if that was a mass case. Now baby boomers are coming and they want everything instantly, so the push is here. And I have stated why would it matter and why it is wrong for eve, you just have not read it :)
And the last paragraph just shows me more that I am right, you are fighting for personal cause here by leveraging it in some points which will not be real benefit for majority of players. Just ask yourself "Cui bono?" Since I have enough isk and market knowledge, I am sure I could gain with this thing personally. Since I have enough money to fund myself with plexes I would gain with plex prices going up as well. So why am I against it? Because games sake is above personal gain for me.
And my points on side effects are mostly not even related to the points you wrote and we "discussed". Will you read them or not is not important, but as long as you blame me for not providing some arguments I have to point you to read them first :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
781
|
Posted - 2015.12.06 22:41:46 -
[6092] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Both wrote a lot of stuff Prices of around 300 to 500 mil per packet have been bandied around for SP packets - How many new players have 2 bil in their in game wallet to pay for a plex and an SP packet? Instant gratification is the norm for many (especially when it comes to "leisure time"). Is there enough rich benefactors in Eve to hand out isk by the bucket load to new players to use sp packets or will this new class of players need to have a large amount of excess income to spend on their leisure activity.
The biggest single concern I hear from new players (aside from "why do players in lowsec always kill me") is, how do I make enough isk to play for "free". The "need" to buy SP packets, "so you don't get left behind" "so you can be useful in fleet" etc, can only add to the frustration many new players suffer now.
Benefit to the game - Is hard really but *could* lead to a lot more targets for those who learned the game as they trained up, rather than paid to buy SP. Anyone who has played eve for more than 5 mins knows, having the skills to fly a ship does not make you a good pilot (unless you join an F1 group where your just one in the blob).
IMO; The best way to allow new players to advance more quickly (if that is the goal); Reduce the transfer cost to a single plex and make the extra by adding options to buying a new character from the the character bazaar. Offer the option (at a cost) to change the name of a purchased character, offer the option (at a cost) to remove existing corp history. Once a character is sold on the bazaar it has lost any link, symbolic or otherwise with its creator (or at least should). So why not allow the purchaser to start out fresh, new character, new name, start your own (corp) history.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.06 23:21:47 -
[6093] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: There are numerous players who sticked to their original characters.
Sasha Sen wrote: Sasha was my first character, first choice. The skill packets would allow me to stay with my choice and get the skills I feel I "need" to move forward. So Sasha would live on, as my first choice for character, with all the consequences attached to her.
Sorry, Sasha, but someone thinking that we are minority and thats why we don't derserve it. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1808
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 02:03:39 -
[6094] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:a)You are going in semantics again, moving away from the point. My point was that if you have "access" to it as ability to earn it and afford TSP it does not mean everyone has it. Ie it does not matter if you have it in your wallet at the moment or in investments or you just know how to make it. No need to play it dumb. And I have shown you that there is no need for such assumption by providing concrete numbers. Everyone has ability to earn isk, but there are huge differences in efficiency, time being devoted to that etc. And what you are stating is pure elitism, "everyone is given a same chance, who cares why someone cannot do it" and something which was against principles of EVE since start. Ie time managed sp system was there to give everyone same "rights" regardless of how much time they can devote to the game, that is one of the main reasons why eve got it niche. While you are pushing it to favor the more active ones. And I highly doubt you would push it if you were not able to earn it yourself b) I do not want to ignore them, I just pointed out they are not so big. Plus bazaar will remain as it is and still be more used than TSP. On the "ignorance" comment that troll added which you referred later on, I just gave example and there are thousands same like that and countered your original statement that that is some benefit we will gain with TSP. I just pointed out it is already doable d) Ok, now I can agree with that when put that way, it will have more visibility than bazaar e) Again, looking through your own eyes. You were offered T3. Were you new player? I highly doubt it since new players cannot really fly them... So why involve unrelated bs as an argument? I will repeat again, no corp will give hundreds of millions to new players. f) see d) :) g) I am saying that budget for plexes is limited. Ie the amount of money people spend on plexes wont increase by adding another use for plexes. People who need to buy plexes with isk will increase in numbers for sure, but it does not mean amount of plexes will be sold unless there is increase in price of it. Which will probably grow faster than supply, as the supply can stretch only a bit up, demand will grow much more which means prices are going to keep going up. And then we will see more and more people quiting. h) At what point you expect them to purchase them? Since on the start they cannot earn isk to secure sp, they would need to purchase it with money. How many would be willing to do that? It seems that we need to define what we mean by new player. As it seems that our idea is different. For me new players are people who play up to 6 months of playing. Unless heavily guided and instructed, only rare of them will be able to earn enough for their play and sp i/j) I just feel it is wrong to add something like that to the list as it give impression that you just want bigger list k) If that is current scenario, I pity such players. There are things to do in eve since day 1, if you choose to be bored you cannot blame the game mechanics for that l) see k) m) see g), plex can only go up in prices with this and the TSP price will follow n) It will be cheaper due to diminishing returns. Simple as that. Regarding my comment on fixing char purchase I just gave shallow random ideas which have crossed my mind, I did not really think of solution for it as this is not topic for that. There is not a single point on the list which will be beneficial for A LOT of players. What dismisiveness and unfounded assumptions I made, if you do not want to understand something it is really not my fault. a) No, you're simply refusing to acknowledge the point by trying to say any specific example you can find of a poor player invalidates the idea that players can chose to learn to make more isk. There is plenty of info out there on how to do so. Those who are good at it learned from somewhere obviously. Why you assume so many permanently incapable I'm not sure. At some point you're going to have to justify this limitation you assume other players have. b) No, you pointed out you were not one of them, that was it. And dismissing the size of the group still doesn't argue against it being a benefit for them. e) Relatively yes, They offered it, but when you can barely board a drake, as was my case, you couldn't really take advantage of it. But pointing out such orgs exist is not looking at things through one's own eyes because the existence of those orgs and their programs doesn't change with personal perspective. What they have done is objective fact. That's why your ignorance argument is BS. g) That reasoning goes completely against the P2P/P2Progress arguments being made. If this becomes a non-driver for PLEX purchase from CCP then no one is actually exchanging cash for SP and we get an increase only in so much as farmers of SP actually need to establish their capacity, which in some cases is 0. I'm just not prepared to believe that no one will take the at least one time cost out in real currency for a quick training boost. h) Contradicts your previous point. If the amount of PLEX flowing into the game won't increase due to what you seem to think are capped RL budgets, then that's it. There can be no cash purchases by new players. But to answer the question of targets, I expect the 10-50mill range to see the most use. I'm not expecting brand new players to use it, as the shouldn't really be engaging in steep purchases for skill systems they likely won't fully understand. This is a feature for those who have been here to the point of understanding game and training fundaments. i/j) We'll have to agree to disagree. k) No, but you can provide carrots to discourage it through mechanics. m) Yeah, but you contradicted the method with your very prior point. n) A solution which didn't address the chief issue with the sale of dirty characters, consequence avoidance. Rather it just potentially builds it in to xfers. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1808
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 02:24:59 -
[6095] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:But I have already posted them, they are already in this thread. You are blaming me for being lazy to search them and link them for you, while you are lazy to search them and read them on your own? I've already told you why I'm not doing that. Your logic is shortsighted and self centric. I'm not wasting my time to seek that out. You are the one who wants me to answer those so do me the same level of courtesy I'm doing you and post them. If you think you can obligate me to more effort than you while not responding to my own efforts, you're mistaken about how far you can play me into your manipulations.
Edit: Also nice dodge on answering the represented questions complete with deflection into you appeal to waste my time.
Reporting then to give you another chance: "explain why this would bring about the detriment you claim or more specifically state the reason why inequalities in SP are only not allowable for reasons other than time"
Quote:So, you do not have any official data presented in tangible way but you blame me for the same? Interesting. And if both yours and mine experience are not worth of anything, then how we can discuss about it? My main point in sp vs proficiency is that is not something which creates big bottleneck as there is always things to do in eve regardless of sp. So even though some players would surely utilize TSP it is not game changer for anyone.
And I am being honest all the time. I have no reason at all to "fight" beside game`s sake and that is only reason why I am posting. I am afraid that current direction is going to make the game worse. And I want CCP to keep taking my money :) Who's making the claim as refutationm to potential benefits of the idea? It was you. So the stance you're now taking is that neither of us have proof therefore you get a win based purely on making the claim? That's pretty dishonest.
Quote:Again, you blame me to being lazy while you are lazy on your own to find them and read them. Starts to be funny :) I am not sure why does it looks like I claim both, must be due to my engrish skills. It is definitely not worthwhile as we are "fighting" for totally different points. I am fighting for the sake of the game, you are fighting for your own interest. There was only ~5 ppl I called trolls in this thread. And they were obvious trolls not just by the posting but because a lot of their posts got deleted. And if my pointing out that you should read my posts before discussing in order to understand my point in details is trolling, then so be it. It just shows me that your main reason for discussing with me is not to understand each other and then discuss but only to annul my posting by whatever means necessary in order to "win the war" for your personal cause. And that is one of the reasons why it is not worthwhile to post. Reasoning behind our posting seems to be totally different. Because if you wanted to discuss for the sake of game you would go and read my WOT`s on this subject. Another major reason why it is not worthwhile is that CCP is coming with this change regardless if we agree with all your claims or all my claims. I just wrote side effects which will hit the game after this change no matter if you want to agree or not (would demand to read them first though ). Please tell me what I am wrong about you: 1. Above average ingame capability 2. Smart 3. Ignorant (looking through his own POV) Well yes, you are lazy for not matching my efforts in posing you questions for you to respond to. A fact I'll gladly repeat as often as you do it lest you think it's gone unnoticed or found acceptable.
Yes, you are being the lazy one. You can't copy paste but want someone else to review a thread over 300 pages long to find something that you've pretty poorly defined in the first place when you could end this whole part of the conversation by posting it again. I've done that much. You are doing in that specific way less. That makes you the lazy one.
To the idea of my own interest, if a classic ad hominem is the best you have to present as an argument, and has been for a while no less, I think we can all see your pretty much out of anything resembling rational arguments. While the accusation is wholly unture, this is a mechanic I have no intention to use from any standpoint, I'll not but forth any effort trying to convince you because you came to this conclusion based on your own misconceptions about the sides in this debate. I can't fix that.
To your ascertions: 1) No, not in the least bit player skill wise 2) Enough to see through your BS 3) Not in the least bit, rather I'm the one not labeling people based on their stance and arguing against self constructed opponents, but rather the (sometimes rather poor) quality of their reasoning |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1809
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 02:42:55 -
[6096] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:I already explained in previous post. I gave you just one example that you are wrong. There are numerous players who sticked to their original characters.
I have used char bazaar, that can be easily found by search button. For both sales and purchases.
Regarding experience and sp, I can say in average it is quite fine. We would not need 13 years to start pushing for that if that was a mass case. Now baby boomers are coming and they want everything instantly, so the push is here. And I have stated why would it matter and why it is wrong for eve, you just have not read it :)
And the last paragraph just shows me more that I am right, you are fighting for personal cause here by leveraging it in some points which will not be real benefit for majority of players. Just ask yourself "Cui bono?" Since I have enough isk and market knowledge, I am sure I could gain with this thing personally. Since I have enough money to fund myself with plexes I would gain with plex prices going up as well. So why am I against it? Because games sake is above personal gain for me.
And my points on side effects are mostly not even related to the points you wrote and we "discussed". Will you read them or not is not important, but as long as you blame me for not providing some arguments I have to point you to read them first :) No, you never told me I was wrong, you just said it didn't apply to you then suggested that's the same as being wrong. Further now you seem to be suggesting that the people who feel differently than you don't count because a number of people agree with you. In both cases you're doing exactly what you accuse me of doing. Taking your own myopic view as a norm to minimize conflicting viewpoints while further ignoring the context of the issue. No one would expect a 2003 player to have this conflict. Your personal experience and the experience of your tenured peers is the last and least useful place to draw that measure.
And no, the last paragraph in no way validates you. Rather you're now just saying minority benefits aren't worth counting, again continuing your trend of marginalizing if not outright denying anything that's not in your majority. You're refusing to consider anything not in the majority use case when it suits you.
I'm just not one to believe that because a group is a minority, an advantage top them isn't an advantage to them.
And no, I'm terrible at maximizing market usage. Another thing you got wrong.
On top of that, you're still being intellectually lazy and not providing the points, so calling you out for it is entirely accurate. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 04:16:29 -
[6097] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: [context] And what you are stating is pure elitism, "everyone is given a same chance, who cares why someone cannot do it" and something which was against principles of EVE since start. Ie time managed sp system was there to give everyone same "rights" regardless of how much time they can devote to the game [/context]
O rly? I thought principle of EVE "Lets give additional advantage(SP) to palyers who subed longer so they could do more thing than others". I just can't believe that you wrote this - char who have ~244m SP and who was subed since 2003. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1813
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 04:45:27 -
[6098] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: [context] And what you are stating is pure elitism, "everyone is given a same chance, who cares why someone cannot do it" and something which was against principles of EVE since start. Ie time managed sp system was there to give everyone same "rights" regardless of how much time they can devote to the game [/context]
O rly? I thought principle of EVE "Lets give additional advantage(SP) to palyers who subed longer so they could do more thing than others". I just can't believe that you wrote this - char who have ~244m SP and who was subed since 2003. Not to mention it's fundamentally wrong. Since when was Eve not a sandbox that allowed and in some ways mandated taking something where others may not have the ability to do so?
The only thing the game has ever done is give access to the same basic tool, their character and then has you determine the rest from there. If that process is elitist because it doesn't ensure parity and allows some to gain more than others then the game itself is fundamentally and inescapably elitist.
Which means if that's a problem for someone that other can use their knowledge and skill to do more than they can in a competitive environment, the issue is that player, not the game. |
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
782
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 09:27:53 -
[6099] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: There are numerous players who sticked to their original characters.
Sasha Sen wrote: Sasha was my first character, first choice. The skill packets would allow me to stay with my choice and get the skills I feel I "need" to move forward. So Sasha would live on, as my first choice for character, with all the consequences attached to her.
Sorry, Sasha, but someone thinking that we are minority so we don't derserve it. Sgt Ocker wrote: IMO; The best way to allow new players to advance more quickly (if that is the goal); Reduce the transfer cost to a single plex and make the extra by adding options to buying a new character from the the character bazaar. Offer the option (at a cost) to change the name of a purchased character, offer the option (at a cost) to remove existing corp history. Once a character is sold on the bazaar it has lost any link, symbolic or otherwise with its creator (or at least should). So why not allow the purchaser to start out fresh, new character, new name, start your own (corp) history.
TSP not only allowing to keep indentity. It also allowing to spend isk in more gradual way than it happening on bazaar. Sgt Ocker wrote: Prices of around 300 to 500 mil per packet have been bandied around for SP packets - How many new players have 2 bil in their in game wallet to pay for a plex and an SP packet?
They might pay for sub with RL. Anyway more than users of bazaar. Sorry Sasha - It would live on but would no longer be the same character, once you pay to alter a characters attributes it is no longer "Sasha" but something you decided to turn Sasha into. My 1st character (8 years old now) is still a bit of a mess due to early mistakes, I don't have the option to buy SP to fix him though without huge cost due to diminishing returns.
TSP only works IF players are prepared to sell SP and enough of it to keep prices cheap. Once TSP's hit the market, there may be an initial rush of cheap SP available as older players with mining skills (2 or 3 mil a piece) decide to sell them just because they can. Problem is, this is Eve, few players will do something if it is not fun or profitable. SP packets will not be cheap, so you need to ask yourself - Are you prepared to grind isk X days a month so you can add some SP and play the game for the remainder of the month.
Creating characters for SP farming has a very small chance of happening but the SP from them on a monthly basis is not going to be cheap - Around 400 mil isk per 500k SP +TSP + profit = Not cheap SP to the consumer. I'd expect prices to be in the 550 to 600 mil isk range, until people work out - grinding to sub an account for 150 mil profit p/m is not worth it and prices go up.
In some selfish way, I hope CCP do start this program. I hope it brings 10's of thousands of new players in. I want all those new players flying ships they purchased SP for in the game, the more the merrier. Having SP does not give you pilot skill, only learning the mechanics of how ships work will do that. Bottom line - The more noobs in shiny ships the more killmails (and buckets of tears) for the rest of us.
NB; My FW character with <10 mil SP is currently my favorite. I get more kills with it and have more fun than I do in any of my other characters. SP is only a limiting factor if the individual player allows it to become so.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 12:20:19 -
[6100] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: [context] And what you are stating is pure elitism, "everyone is given a same chance, who cares why someone cannot do it" and something which was against principles of EVE since start. Ie time managed sp system was there to give everyone same "rights" regardless of how much time they can devote to the game [/context]
O rly? I thought principle of EVE "Lets give additional advantage(SP) to palyers who subed longer so they could do more thing than others". I just can't believe that you wrote this - char who have ~244m SP and who was subed since 2003. Not to mention it's fundamentally wrong. Since when was Eve not a sandbox that allowed and in some ways mandated taking something where others may not have the ability to do so? The only thing the game has ever done is give access to the same basic tool, their character and then has you determine the rest from there. If that process is elitist because it doesn't ensure parity and allows some to gain more than others then the game itself is fundamentally and inescapably elitist. Which means if that's a problem for someone that other can use their knowledge and skill to do more than they can in a competitive environment, the issue is that player, not the game. Eve is a sandbox in every sense of the word. In this open world there is no place a one day old character cannot go to that someone who has played for 13 years. There are no level entry requirements to access any area, there are no instanced area's that are off limits to anyone.
What are you trying to infer that eve should be ?, All its characters are created equal from day one none better than the next. It's up to you what direction you choose to progress and how quickly too. Every one has the ability to train for implants to speed up there training and with the plex you are now on a level field with the ability to gain isk without any grind. If a pilot decides to go cyber/ssc/gunnery to work towards fleet and then you have someone who is semi clueless and just wants to chase the idea of playing the game for free grinding at almost anything for the plex, That is not the games fault but they're the first to whine about falling behind and they cannot access the latest FoTM shinies.
Tenure and length of, Has always been an integral part of eve. Even the CEO states: The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.
Sandbox / Openworld does not mean instance access to every item in game, Just that everyone is given the opportunity to gain access to them. I can see there is a need to help the new now and part of the new system maybe leading to this, The 5 million cut off for an extraction maybe because somewhere down the line new players could be given 5 million as a start point but the figures for 5 / 50 are nothing short of a reskill mechanic as they stand.
The only way this would work without intended / unexpected exploitation would be for CCP to market them directly, It may not be a perfect solution but far less interruption to the game as it now stands. |
|
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 17:11:56 -
[6101] - Quote
Well, if we are talking about current problems with the bazaar this makes sense, but you can't apply this a s an issue for TSP if it already exists |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6867
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 17:14:45 -
[6102] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Well, if we are talking about current problems with the bazaar this makes sense, but you can't apply this a s an issue for TSP if it already exists Perhaps they consider one advantage "fair" and the other "unfair"
The difference being they can't kill the bazaar... or perhaps they think it too is "unfair" but just can't kill it
I shall spend my time to farm isk in order to obtain these tsp. Actually investing time, you know. Different from the passage of time.
Maybe the issue is that ths passage of time gives an unfair advantage over the investment of time playing the game. We all know with implants it's better to not play the game and rely on the passage of time for skills...
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6867
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 17:19:01 -
[6103] - Quote
People like the fact that there is a high barrier (for newbies) to bazaar ie: need to have billions in liquid isk to participate. That's probably why it's "ok" to tolerate it. Also, it's confusing and so on, thus it is a mechanic where the older players can actually use it to maintain their advantage.
The opposite of these is true with TSP. Very much so, thanks to diminishing SP from injecting them
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 17:27:13 -
[6104] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:People like the fact that there is a high barrier (for newbies) to bazaar ie: need to have billions in liquid isk to participate. That's probably why it's "ok" to tolerate it. Also, it's confusing and so on, thus it is a mechanic where the older players can actually use it to maintain their advantage.
The opposite of these is true with TSP. Very much so, thanks to diminishing SP from injecting them
Is it possible that we could agree TSP is a balance to the bazaar?
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 17:28:26 -
[6105] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote: In some selfish way, I hope CCP do start this program. I hope it brings 10's of thousands of new players in. I want all those new players flying ships they purchased SP for in the game, the more the merrier. Having SP does not give you pilot skill, only learning the mechanics of how ships work will do that. Bottom line - The more noobs in shiny ships the more killmails (and buckets of tears) for the rest of us.
NB; My FW character with <10 mil SP is currently my favorite. I get more kills with it and have more fun than I do in any of my other characters.
I like your way of thinking. You have your fun, noobs have their SP.
Berrice Silf wrote: Eve is a sandbox in every sense of the word. In this open world there is no place a one day old character cannot go to that someone who has played for 13 years. There are no level entry requirements to access any area, there are no instanced area's that are off limits to anyone.
What about ships requirements?
Berrice Silf wrote: All its characters are created equal from day one none better than the next. ... That is not the games fault but they're the first to whine about falling behind and they cannot access the latest FoTM shinies.
"And what you are stating is pure elitism, "everyone is given a same chance, who cares why someone cannot do it"" |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 17:41:34 -
[6106] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote: In some selfish way, I hope CCP do start this program. I hope it brings 10's of thousands of new players in. I want all those new players flying ships they purchased SP for in the game, the more the merrier. Having SP does not give you pilot skill, only learning the mechanics of how ships work will do that. Bottom line - The more noobs in shiny ships the more killmails (and buckets of tears) for the rest of us.
NB; My FW character with <10 mil SP is currently my favorite. I get more kills with it and have more fun than I do in any of my other characters.
I like your way of thinking. You have your fun, noobs have their SP. Berrice Silf wrote: Eve is a sandbox in every sense of the word. In this open world there is no place a one day old character cannot go to that someone who has played for 13 years. There are no level entry requirements to access any area, there are no instanced area's that are off limits to anyone.
What about ships requirements? Berrice Silf wrote: All its characters are created equal from day one none better than the next. ... That is not the games fault but they're the first to whine about falling behind and they cannot access the latest FoTM shinies.
"And what you are stating is pure elitism, "everyone is given a same chance, who cares why someone cannot do it"" Everyone is equal, because you want to spend your time chasing the white rabbit is your choice. Just dont come whining about it later is not an elitist statement. Your playing it how you want to play it but because you treat it like a second job to fund your gameplay you have little time left for the finer parts of the game and its content. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 17:57:45 -
[6107] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote: Everyone is equal, because you want to spend your time chasing the white rabbit is your choice. Just dont come whining about it later is not an elitist statement. Your playing it how you want to play it but because you treat it like a second job to fund your gameplay you have little time left for the finer parts of the game and its content.
Don't get me wrong. I just qouted Don ZOLA. It's not what I really think. |
GUI Panties
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 18:23:32 -
[6108] - Quote
I say do it. I have several pilots I would love to push all the SP into one or two, The diminishing return is a bit to low. You should get more for all those years of training and cash. After all they are real life clock ticks out of our lives. You don't seem to realize this. For all those who hate it you are just angry others will fly what you can fly. TO BAD, My main was born the day after eve launched. I quit playing for a few years I would love to take SP from my other pilots. Without cash the game goes away. Its not all about you.
On the other hand. There should be new content for older players. For example. How about a new Gate that takes you to a new universe that you can't come back from. The new universe offers new skills and ships that you can only get in the new universe. You need a certain number of SP and minimum age to go through. You can take your isk but it needs to be converted to a new monetary system and exchange rate is such that taking billions of isk is not a huge advantage over the poorest players. These new skills could be for learning to create and fly ships based on biomimetics, "living ships". Whereas the old skills are needed as a basis to use these new ships. This is a truly an evolution and continuance of eve. You don't have to screw with old content in order to make it APPEAR as new content. This new universe should also only allow newer computers with newer OS's so there is no limit to the newest technology for the very best game play. Get rid of the Box shaped ships. This should go without saying keep the current eve system running.
Evolve now don't rehash. We are sick of it. Imagine new from scratch CLEAN code with the experiences of the old game. Maybe use that old cluster for this right now... Willing to accept huge amounts of isk for the idea.
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 18:57:05 -
[6109] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Berrice Silf wrote: Eve is a sandbox in every sense of the word. In this open world there is no place a one day old character cannot go to that someone who has played for 13 years. There are no level entry requirements to access any area, there are no instanced area's that are off limits to anyone.
What about ships requirements?
The sandbox is the environment, the sandbox doesn't give you access to your ships your tenure to the game does e.g. the time investment. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 19:03:24 -
[6110] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote: The sandbox is the environment, the sandbox doesn't give you access to your ships your tenure to the game does e.g. the time investment.
Alavaria Fera wrote: I shall spend my time to farm isk in order to obtain these tsp. Actually investing time, you know. Different from the passage of time.
I agree with Alavaria Fera about it |
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
217
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 19:23:05 -
[6111] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: a) No, you're simply refusing to acknowledge the point by trying to say any specific example you can find of a poor player invalidates the idea that players can chose to learn to make more isk. There is plenty of info out there on how to do so. Those who are good at it learned from somewhere obviously. Why you assume so many permanently incapable I'm not sure. At some point you're going to have to justify this limitation you assume other players have. b) No, you pointed out you were not one of them, that was it. And dismissing the size of the group still doesn't argue against it being a benefit for them. e) Relatively yes, They offered it, but when you can barely board a drake, as was my case, you couldn't really take advantage of it. But pointing out such orgs exist is not looking at things through one's own eyes because the existence of those orgs and their programs doesn't change with personal perspective. What they have done is objective fact. That's why your ignorance argument is BS. g) That reasoning goes completely against the P2P/P2Progress arguments being made. If this becomes a non-driver for PLEX purchase from CCP then no one is actually exchanging cash for SP and we get an increase only in so much as farmers of SP actually need to establish their capacity, which in some cases is 0. I'm just not prepared to believe that no one will take the at least one time cost out in real currency for a quick training boost. h) Contradicts your previous point. If the amount of PLEX flowing into the game won't increase due to what you seem to think are capped RL budgets, then that's it. There can be no cash purchases by new players. But to answer the question of targets, I expect the 10-50mill range to see the most use. I'm not expecting brand new players to use it, as the shouldn't really be engaging in steep purchases for skill systems they likely won't fully understand. This is a feature for those who have been here to the point of understanding game and training fundaments. i/j) We'll have to agree to disagree. k) No, but you can provide carrots to discourage it through mechanics. m) Yeah, but you contradicted the method with your very prior point. n) A solution which didn't address the chief issue with the sale of dirty characters, consequence avoidance. Rather it just potentially builds it in to xfers.
a) So now you are arguing OFFICIAL statistic numbers (from 2012, doubt there is much difference nowdays), not my assumption? There are ways to earn isk, they are open for everyone, there are plenty of instructions how to do it. Yet, people do not do it. For whichever reason there might be. And because they do not do it, TSP will not be affordable for average player. But keep denying it please. b) I just gave one example which has shown you are wrong. As there are numerous players who had the same experience. So stating that is something we get with TSP is utter bs no matter how hard you try to explain it is e) Seems I have to give you clear questions in order to avoid meaningless paragraphs. How many corps out there is willing to give hundreds of millions of isk to new players (people with less than 5mil sp)? g) It seems that you did not understand my comment at all. Supply of plexes might increase slightly with increase of plex isk price. It can strech up a bit to a limited extend simply as the most of players already invests as much as they need for their game play, investing extra has to give them extra (more isk). But demand for plexes will increase due to TSP (original demand for gametime + additional demand for TSP). So it is simple market rules, supply and demand. As the demand will rise more than supply the price will go up. If the demand does not rise that means TSP is failure and use of it will be just occasional. h) I agree with the target audience but it gets us back to the average isk by player. I think we can agree that most of older players will be richer than new ones, which means average isk at young character is even less. That means the investment needed would be quite huge for something they have to wait ~1 week of training. Which will again lead to failure of TSP system for new players? i/j) fine k) Care to elaborate? Carrot should be there to point them to go and get their ship blowned up not just grinding m) I do not understand how do I contradict it? n) Why continue digression on something which is not the subject, we are not discussing solving of char bazaar here but TSP?
Still I see no major benefit for player base. For some individuals surely. But if you take in considerations side effects then there is a question "why implement something and risk that can backfire badly when actual benefit is marginal"?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
217
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 19:25:54 -
[6112] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I've already told you why I'm not doing that. Your logic is shortsighted and self centric. I'm not wasting my time to seek that out. You are the one who wants me to answer those so do me the same level of courtesy I'm doing you and post them. If you think you can obligate me to more effort than you while not responding to my own efforts, you're mistaken about how far you can play me into your manipulations.
I`ve already told you why I`m not doing that. Your logic is shortsighted and self centric. I`m not wasting my time to seek that out only to provide you something you can do yourself. Plus, as I already stated, my cause and your cause are totally different. You fight for your personal cause, I fight for game sake. You are actually the one manipulating and just want to "win" at any cost since you think you are getting something. Actually YOU are the one who wanted answers and I told you where you can find them. As I already wrote it, this will be implemented and a year after it we will see who was right about it. I really hope it would be you, but due to all anecdotes I had with this game and all the side effects I mentioned I highly suspect that outcome.
And again, I am not dodging anything. You dodged to read them and comment them. In past (as you were active on the topic at that time) and now as well. I own you nothing and I can only look at you as an enemy since you are fighting for something which I see will cause a serious damage to the game. I can be polite but forget courtesy. I am not obliging you to anything at all, I just pointed out that if you want them you can read them. You have as many chances to do that as you want :)
Tyberius Franklin wrote:IWho's making the claim as refutationm to potential benefits of the idea? It was you. So the stance you're now taking is that neither of us have proof therefore you get a win based purely on making the claim? That's pretty dishonest.
I did not refute them. I refuted some which are wrong and some logical fallacies. On some I have agreed. But I keep stressing out that side effects are bigger than benefit. And that is why I am strongly against this idea.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I Well yes, you are lazy for not matching my efforts in posing you questions for you to respond to. A fact I'll gladly repeat as often as you do it lest you think it's gone unnoticed or found acceptable.
Lol. You have been active on this topic when those were posted. Yet you did not read/challenge them. Ie I have covered the subject weeks ago. And I am the one to blame if you act that you just showed up here and we should provide you links to previous discussions or whatever. Are you some official judge who will make a decision on the subject? Get real :D
As I mentioned already, if you were fighting for the games sake I would probably do it. But you are just posting to "win" over other side, you are not having discussion, you are waging private forum war over a subject you have no influence at all (neither does anyone else as CCP care about players feedback obviously). At least not like lootit and similar though.
I can`t copy/paste it since I do not remember where they are. And even posting here at all is a waste of time I can afford that much. But I do not want to search through the page 1 to find them. If CCP got the message then great, it was for them. Hope they will make sure to cover all possible side effects or at least assure as that will not happen. If anyone else wants to read it and think about it, put an effort. I`ll gladly repeat as often as you "challenge" . Simple as that.
For my ad hominem attacks I apologize. I was under impression that you and me have the same cause just the different POVs and I wanted to push you into taking someone`s else POV to see what I am talking about. Meanwhile I realized that your POV is after your own interests and while perfectly understandable stance, that is something totally unacceptable for me. For rationality of arguments, please respond to the list to provide the same. As now we got it to fundamentals, most of assumptions is out of play.
1. Now you openly lie, you just said that your skills were above your sp when you flew drake and were offered T3 :) 2. Interesting, how can you see through it when you did not read it? 3. As mentioned above I labeled you in order to "push" you to try other perspective. Later on I realized that since the start of the topic your POV and aim was the same. Not discussion and making the good for the game but just to win in fight for your personal benefit. Which is still egocentrical but acceptable since you fight for your own not for game, but it is same like discussion with Dror - a waste of time since the main ideas are totally diametrically opposed.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
217
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 19:27:06 -
[6113] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:No, you never told me I was wrong, you just said it didn't apply to you then suggested that's the same as being wrong. Further now you seem to be suggesting that the people who feel differently than you don't count because a number of people agree with you. In both cases you're doing exactly what you accuse me of doing. Taking your own myopic view as a norm to minimize conflicting viewpoints while further ignoring the context of the issue. No one would expect a 2003 player to have this conflict. Your personal experience and the experience of your tenured peers is the last and least useful place to draw that measure.
And no, the last paragraph in no way validates you. Rather you're now just saying minority benefits aren't worth counting, again continuing your trend of marginalizing if not outright denying anything that's not in your majority. You're refusing to consider anything not in the majority use case when it suits you.
I'm just not one to believe that because a group is a minority, an advantage top them isn't an advantage to them.
And no, I'm terrible at maximizing market usage. Another thing you got wrong.
On top of that, you're still being intellectually lazy and not providing the points, so calling you out for it is entirely accurate.
So. You make a point. I put a statement which annuls it and then "I never told you that you were wrong"? Do I really need to write that beside me there are thousands of other pilots there with the same experience to tell you that you are wrong? There is no need to play dumb to avoid being told you are wrong, learn to accept it. You have put that thing as a benefit which will come with TSP, I pointed out it is wrong as it is already here. (Though you did not admit it even after something so easily checkable like my character bazaar activity which you blamed me on so I totally understand there is no chance for you to admit being wrong in your crusade :D) . Which again gets me to mentioned in past, you are fighting war for your own interest...
Not sure what conflict I have, I did not understand what you mean.
I already wrote. Cui bono? How does it suit me when I can take advantage of it and still I am against it? Can you name any reasons why it would suit me beside just stating so? I am stating that only minority can have benefit from this while side effects could affect much more. And either they should make it more effective for player base or drop it. Simple as that.
You are so eager to prove others wrong that you failed at reading in your rush to point out that I am wrong. I wrote that part for myself not for you. I have great market knowledge and skills for it, I have the ISK to invest in it and play with it, I have friends who can help me to make cartel and control prices. Yet I think it is not good idea to implement.
Beside the points I have made and which you cannot be arsed to read, I have made counter points to your points where we are now in situation that you are challenging official game statistics, consumers behaviorism, market laws. Yet you claim I do not provide any point. Well played, maybe lootit is actually just "lighter" version of you :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
217
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 19:27:54 -
[6114] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Berrice Silf wrote: Everyone is equal, because you want to spend your time chasing the white rabbit is your choice. Just dont come whining about it later is not an elitist statement. Your playing it how you want to play it but because you treat it like a second job to fund your gameplay you have little time left for the finer parts of the game and its content.
Don't get me wrong. I just qouted Don ZOLA. It's not what I really think.
Please do not quote me anymore since it seems that either you can just take things out of context and troll or lack basic ability to understand what I write even though my English is quite simple. Also, I hope you will understand that instead of spending time to write you replies I will chose to do something more worth of that time, like watching at ceiling, picking my nose or any activity which requires only breathing. Have a nice day!
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 19:28:17 -
[6115] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Berrice Silf wrote: The sandbox is the environment, the sandbox doesn't give you access to your ships your tenure to the game does e.g. the time investment.
Alavaria Fera wrote: I shall spend my time to farm isk in order to obtain these tsp. Actually investing time, you know. Different from the passage of time.
I agree with Alavaria Fera about it Your time investment is the 30 day access, Actual play time is a completely different thing. As to passage of time could be viewed as the point at which you started your career in eve to this present day. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1814
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 19:39:31 -
[6116] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Eve is a sandbox in every sense of the word. In this open world there is no place a one day old character cannot go to that someone who has played for 13 years. There are no level entry requirements to access any area, there are no instanced area's that are off limits to anyone. What are you trying to infer that eve should be ?, All its characters are created equal from day one none better than the next. It's up to you what direction you choose to progress and how quickly too. Every one has the ability to train for implants to speed up there training and with the plex you are now on a level field with the ability to gain isk without any grind. If a pilot decides to go cyber/ssc/gunnery to work towards fleet and then you have someone who is semi clueless and just wants to chase the idea of playing the game for free grinding at almost anything for the plex, That is not the games fault but they're the first to whine about falling behind and they cannot access the latest FoTM shinies. Tenure and length of, Has always been an integral part of eve. Even the CEO states: The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. Sandbox / Openworld does not mean instance access to every item in game, Just that everyone is given the opportunity to gain access to them. I can see there is a need to help the new now and part of the new system maybe leading to this, The 5 million cut off for an extraction maybe because somewhere down the line new players could be given 5 million as a start point but the figures for 5 / 50 are nothing short of a reskill mechanic as they stand. The only way this would work without intended / unexpected exploitation would be for CCP to market them directly, It may not be a perfect solution but far less interruption to the game as it now stands. Edit: A lot of people think they would prefer sandbox games, then when presented with a true sandbox game they either don't like it / wont play it. Truth being that the majority of casual players who hop on for a hour or two expecting to be rewarded are disappointed. A sandbox game like eve represents a time commitment which you should treat like hobby and expect to play for 6 month's minimum but more like 2 years. A few things: 1: TSP comes from time 2: Obtaining TSP via isk also always comes from time
Thus there is never any point at which one can bypass the time investment. One just has to entice those who have made the investment to part with it.
So regardless of the number of times that quote is repeated it won't actually have the meaning you intend since everything still has it's origin in time (and money). |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
217
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 19:57:42 -
[6117] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Eve is a sandbox in every sense of the word. In this open world there is no place a one day old character cannot go to that someone who has played for 13 years. There are no level entry requirements to access any area, there are no instanced area's that are off limits to anyone. What are you trying to infer that eve should be ?, All its characters are created equal from day one none better than the next. It's up to you what direction you choose to progress and how quickly too. Every one has the ability to train for implants to speed up there training and with the plex you are now on a level field with the ability to gain isk without any grind. If a pilot decides to go cyber/ssc/gunnery to work towards fleet and then you have someone who is semi clueless and just wants to chase the idea of playing the game for free grinding at almost anything for the plex, That is not the games fault but they're the first to whine about falling behind and they cannot access the latest FoTM shinies. Tenure and length of, Has always been an integral part of eve. Even the CEO states: The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. Sandbox / Openworld does not mean instance access to every item in game, Just that everyone is given the opportunity to gain access to them. I can see there is a need to help the new now and part of the new system maybe leading to this, The 5 million cut off for an extraction maybe because somewhere down the line new players could be given 5 million as a start point but the figures for 5 / 50 are nothing short of a reskill mechanic as they stand. The only way this would work without intended / unexpected exploitation would be for CCP to market them directly, It may not be a perfect solution but far less interruption to the game as it now stands. Edit: A lot of people think they would prefer sandbox games, then when presented with a true sandbox game they either don't like it / wont play it. Truth being that the majority of casual players who hop on for a hour or two expecting to be rewarded are disappointed. A sandbox game like eve represents a time commitment which you should treat like hobby and expect to play for 6 month's minimum but more like 2 years. A few things: 1: TSP comes from time 2: Obtaining TSP via isk also always comes from time Thus there is never any point at which one can bypass the time investment. One just has to entice those who have made the investment to part with it. So regardless of the number of times that quote is repeated it won't actually have the meaning you intend since everything still has it's origin in time (and money).
Except someone else invested that time it and by purchasing it you can avoid current limits to your original characters (limited by sp/hour). If you are willing to spend the cash you can bypass any time investment at all (even ones currently not doable by purchasing chars of bazaar).
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1814
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 20:03:13 -
[6118] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:a) So now you are arguing OFFICIAL statistic numbers (from 2012, doubt there is much difference nowdays), not my assumption? There are ways to earn isk, they are open for everyone, there are plenty of instructions how to do it. Yet, people do not do it. For whichever reason there might be. And because they do not do it, TSP will not be affordable for average player. But keep denying it please. b) I just gave one example which has shown you are wrong. As there are numerous players who had the same experience. So stating that is something we get with TSP is utter bs no matter how hard you try to explain it is e) Seems I have to give you clear questions in order to avoid meaningless paragraphs. How many corps out there is willing to give hundreds of millions of isk to new players (people with less than 5mil sp)? g) It seems that you did not understand my comment at all. Supply of plexes might increase slightly with increase of plex isk price. It can strech up a bit to a limited extend simply as the most of players already invests as much as they need for their game play, investing extra has to give them extra (more isk). But demand for plexes will increase due to TSP (original demand for gametime + additional demand for TSP). So it is simple market rules, supply and demand. As the demand will rise more than supply the price will go up. If the demand does not rise that means TSP is failure and use of it will be just occasional. h) I agree with the target audience but it gets us back to the average isk by player. I think we can agree that most of older players will be richer than new ones, which means average isk at young character is even less. That means the investment needed would be quite huge for something they have to wait ~1 week of training. Which will again lead to failure of TSP system for new players? i/j) fine k) Care to elaborate? Carrot should be there to point them to go and get their ship blowned up not just grinding m) I do not understand how do I contradict it? n) Why continue digression on something which is not the subject, we are not discussing solving of char bazaar here but TSP?
Still I see no major benefit for player base. For some individuals surely. But if you take in considerations side effects then there is a question "why implement something and risk that can backfire badly when actual benefit is marginal"? a) No, you're just making the mistake of conflating average wallet values in 2012 with isk earning potential today or any other point in the future. I don't have to argue against official stats because those stats don't actually prove what you're trying to twist them to prove. You're also making an assumption that those that don't have the isk for TSP cannot make it. Your position only holds true if everyone is functioning at their isk making limits and has no further potential for growth. That's a claim you must prove and no stat regarding wallet counts from 2012 will do that. b) No, you gave an example showing it didn't apply to you personally. If you were the only player in the game that would mean I was wrong, but you aren't. Your personal experience on the matter doesn't constitute me being wrong so long as anyone feels differently. e) Go find out yourself if you want a number. That said it won't have to be billions per player because for a brand new player 1 TSP doubles their SP and opens options. That's really all you need in some cases. g) I fully get what you're saying, it's just that between points you self contradict. We have 2 different expectations here. You seem to think no one will buy a PLEX for TSP, I don't think that's correct and there will be some introduction of new PLEX. h) And the problem here is that you're still assuming that number is a static value not subject to change with game changes. You've yet to justify that. Beyond that there's no issue with waiting and training normally. There's no mandate saying everyone should take advantage of this. Especially those with little familiarity with the skill system as their mistakes are disproportionately expensive. k) Being undocked makes getting blown up easier m) You have a very inconsistent stance on whether this will inject new PLEX, claiming it must because people won't be able to participate but won't because people are unwilling to spend. n) We're discussing the benefits of TSP, such as how it solves an issue created by the Bazaar. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1814
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 20:05:53 -
[6119] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Except someone else invested that time it and by purchasing it you can avoid current limits to your original characters (limited by sp/hour). If you are willing to spend the cash you can bypass any time investment at all (even ones currently not doable by purchasing chars of bazaar). And? Youy've yet to establish why SP/H is anything worthwhile to maintain.
Further you can't use cash to bypass effort or time, but again buy someone else' (where do you think the PLEX seller's isk comes from?).
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 20:10:54 -
[6120] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:A few things: 1: TSP comes from time 2: Obtaining TSP via isk also always comes from time
Thus there is never any point at which one can bypass the time investment. One just has to entice those who have made the investment to part with it.
So regardless of the number of times that quote is repeated it won't actually have the meaning you intend since everything still has it's origin in time (and money). Except someone else invested that time it and by purchasing it you can avoid current limits to your original characters (limited by sp/hour). If you are willing to spend the cash you can bypass any time investment at all (even ones currently not doable by purchasing chars of bazaar). That limit must be very important for old customers who want to keep SP gap. |
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 20:19:42 -
[6121] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote: Your time investment is the 30 day access.
My plex/sub is 30 day access.
Berrice Silf wrote: Actual play time is a completely different thing.
So is there difference or not? "As to passage of time could be viewed as the point at which you started your career in eve to this present day." |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 20:31:11 -
[6122] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Eve is a sandbox in every sense of the word. In this open world there is no place a one day old character cannot go to that someone who has played for 13 years. There are no level entry requirements to access any area, there are no instanced area's that are off limits to anyone. What are you trying to infer that eve should be ?, All its characters are created equal from day one none better than the next. It's up to you what direction you choose to progress and how quickly too. Every one has the ability to train for implants to speed up there training and with the plex you are now on a level field with the ability to gain isk without any grind. If a pilot decides to go cyber/ssc/gunnery to work towards fleet and then you have someone who is semi clueless and just wants to chase the idea of playing the game for free grinding at almost anything for the plex, That is not the games fault but they're the first to whine about falling behind and they cannot access the latest FoTM shinies. Tenure and length of, Has always been an integral part of eve. Even the CEO states: The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. Sandbox / Openworld does not mean instance access to every item in game, Just that everyone is given the opportunity to gain access to them. I can see there is a need to help the new now and part of the new system maybe leading to this, The 5 million cut off for an extraction maybe because somewhere down the line new players could be given 5 million as a start point but the figures for 5 / 50 are nothing short of a reskill mechanic as they stand. The only way this would work without intended / unexpected exploitation would be for CCP to market them directly, It may not be a perfect solution but far less interruption to the game as it now stands. Edit: A lot of people think they would prefer sandbox games, then when presented with a true sandbox game they either don't like it / wont play it. Truth being that the majority of casual players who hop on for a hour or two expecting to be rewarded are disappointed. A sandbox game like eve represents a time commitment which you should treat like hobby and expect to play for 6 month's minimum but more like 2 years. A few things: 1: TSP comes from time 2: Obtaining TSP via isk also always comes from time Thus there is never any point at which one can bypass the time investment. One just has to entice those who have made the investment to part with it. So regardless of the number of times that quote is repeated it won't actually have the meaning you intend since everything still has it's origin in time (and money).
Up until this juncture in the game, even with the bazaar there has been nothing which would allow a person to create a pilot from zero to whatever your wallet (Real / Game) permits. At this point you are now creating a scenario to which real money ( The CCP quote ) begins to take effect, Plus nobody can foresee what effect it will have on the plex. Like many others also i believe it could be used for cheap re-skilling of 5 to 50m bracket characters with little consequence.
If the Micro-transaction is the only way forward then i believe it would have far less repercussions if CCP were to just market a skill point package direct to the players account with its decaying values. No impact on the plex / market and available to anyone. |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 20:37:17 -
[6123] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Eve is a sandbox in every sense of the word. In this open world there is no place a one day old character cannot go to that someone who has played for 13 years. There are no level entry requirements to access any area, there are no instanced area's that are off limits to anyone. What are you trying to infer that eve should be ?, All its characters are created equal from day one none better than the next. It's up to you what direction you choose to progress and how quickly too. Every one has the ability to train for implants to speed up there training and with the plex you are now on a level field with the ability to gain isk without any grind. If a pilot decides to go cyber/ssc/gunnery to work towards fleet and then you have someone who is semi clueless and just wants to chase the idea of playing the game for free grinding at almost anything for the plex, That is not the games fault but they're the first to whine about falling behind and they cannot access the latest FoTM shinies. Tenure and length of, Has always been an integral part of eve. Even the CEO states: The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. Sandbox / Openworld does not mean instance access to every item in game, Just that everyone is given the opportunity to gain access to them. I can see there is a need to help the new now and part of the new system maybe leading to this, The 5 million cut off for an extraction maybe because somewhere down the line new players could be given 5 million as a start point but the figures for 5 / 50 are nothing short of a reskill mechanic as they stand. The only way this would work without intended / unexpected exploitation would be for CCP to market them directly, It may not be a perfect solution but far less interruption to the game as it now stands. Edit: A lot of people think they would prefer sandbox games, then when presented with a true sandbox game they either don't like it / wont play it. Truth being that the majority of casual players who hop on for a hour or two expecting to be rewarded are disappointed. A sandbox game like eve represents a time commitment which you should treat like hobby and expect to play for 6 month's minimum but more like 2 years. A few things: 1: TSP comes from time 2: Obtaining TSP via isk also always comes from time Thus there is never any point at which one can bypass the time investment. One just has to entice those who have made the investment to part with it. So regardless of the number of times that quote is repeated it won't actually have the meaning you intend since everything still has it's origin in time (and money). Up until this juncture in the game, even with the bazaar there has been nothing which would allow a person to create a pilot from zero to whatever your wallet (Real / Game) permits. At this point you are now creating a scenario to which real money ( The CCP quote ) begins to take effect, Plus nobody can foresee what effect it will have on the plex. Like many others also i believe it could be used for cheap re-skilling of 5 to 50m bracket characters with little consequence. If the Micro-transaction is the only way forward then i believe it would have far less repercussions if CCP were to just market a skill point package direct to the players account with its decaying values. No impact on the plex / market and available to anyone.
Lies |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
217
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 20:37:57 -
[6124] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: a) No, you're just making the mistake of conflating average wallet values in 2012 with isk earning potential today or any other point in the future. I don't have to argue against official stats because those stats don't actually prove what you're trying to twist them to prove. You're also making an assumption that those that don't have the isk for TSP cannot make it. Your position only holds true if everyone is functioning at their isk making limits and has no further potential for growth. That's a claim you must prove and no stat regarding wallet counts from 2012 will do that. b) No, you gave an example showing it didn't apply to you personally. If you were the only player in the game that would mean I was wrong, but you aren't. Your personal experience on the matter doesn't constitute me being wrong so long as anyone feels differently. e) Go find out yourself if you want a number. That said it won't have to be billions per player because for a brand new player 1 TSP doubles their SP and opens options. That's really all you need in some cases. g) I fully get what you're saying, it's just that between points you self contradict. We have 2 different expectations here. You seem to think no one will buy a PLEX for TSP, I don't think that's correct and there will be some introduction of new PLEX. h) And the problem here is that you're still assuming that number is a static value not subject to change with game changes. You've yet to justify that. Beyond that there's no issue with waiting and training normally. There's no mandate saying everyone should take advantage of this. Especially those with little familiarity with the skill system as their mistakes are disproportionately expensive. k) Being undocked makes getting blown up easier m) You have a very inconsistent stance on whether this will inject new PLEX, claiming it must because people won't be able to participate but won't because people are unwilling to spend. n) We're discussing the benefits of TSP, such as how it solves an issue created by the Bazaar.
a) Fresh update! I wasnt lazy so i found 2015 situation - http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68738/1/isk.float.3.png there was a growth of ~75%. So almost double. Let`s say it is double. Average wallet is 1bil isk. So people have all the knowledge they can have yet, they choose to not pursue the isk in the way you expect them. What does it show? That people do not really want to grind isk a lot. Since all the knowledge is available out there, you should expect that everyone would want to have larger stockpile to be able to afford some shiny segment of the game. Considering TSP are going to be at least third of their wallets, can you come up with some conclusion? b) You do not need to be genius to figure out that what applies to one can apply to others as well. I thought that was quite obvious, sorry for not drawing it. And even if it was just me, still proves you wrong as it means it is already in the game just not used by anyone else except me. So cannot be added as NEW benefit. So in any case you are wrong, but no worries I do not expect you to admit it e) I expected your logic to be enough. No one is crazy enough to donate hundreds of millions to brand new players for multiple reasons. 1 - Will they utilize it properly, 2 - will they continue to play and be worth of that investment, 3 - will they be valuable player worth investing in, 4- are they just a scammer who made an alt to go around and take TSPs? Just some of the quesitons why sane corp leaders will not give them out as your idea suggests g) I think i was quite clear when i wrote that supply of plexes can strech up a bit if the prices go up. And demand will grow up for sure. Ie after demand growing, prices will grow up followed by some supply growth. Then supply stops growing and demand is still there, meaning prices go up. Simple as that, not sure how that can be unclear h) The number is not static but limited. If one plex can get 4 extractors, there is no chance TSP will be cheaper than 1/4th of plex. Simple as that. +Cartels will make sure it goes up above that. k) Actually if they push them to go to low sec something might be worked out in that direction m) Not sure what you find inconsistent? See g) n) No, you were counter argumenting my claim that char bazaar will be still used for all higher sp chars due to diminishing returns. Therefore the char bazaar issue is not solved by TSP.
Still I see no major benefit for player base. For some individuals surely. But if you take in considerations side effects then there is a question "why implement something and risk that can backfire badly when actual benefit is marginal"?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 20:39:10 -
[6125] - Quote
"Up until this juncture in the game, even with the bazaar there has been nothing which would allow a person to create a pilot from zero to whatever your wallet (Real / Game) permits."
You say this with a straight face? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1816
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 20:41:17 -
[6126] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Up until this juncture in the game, even with the bazaar there has been nothing which would allow a person to create a pilot from zero to whatever your wallet (Real / Game) permits. At this point you are now creating a scenario to which real money ( The CCP quote ) begins to take effect, Plus nobody can foresee what effect it will have on the plex. Like many others also i believe it could be used for cheap re-skilling of 5 to 50m bracket characters with little consequence.
If the Micro-transaction is the only way forward then i believe it would have far less repercussions if CCP were to just market a skill point package direct to the players account with its decaying values. No impact on the plex / market and available to anyone. And again, why does the fact that a pilots SP isn't capped by age a concern? Mechanically yes, it has been impossible to work around this, but that doesn't establish it as a mechanic worth maintaining.
Also by equating progress with a sub you've already created an equivalency of money with progress. That sub had to be paid and enabled your training, thus making it a much more direct purchase of up to just shy of 2m SP than any conversion of PLEX to TSP. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
217
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 20:43:02 -
[6127] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Except someone else invested that time it and by purchasing it you can avoid current limits to your original characters (limited by sp/hour). If you are willing to spend the cash you can bypass any time investment at all (even ones currently not doable by purchasing chars of bazaar). And? Youy've yet to establish why SP/H is anything worthwhile to maintain. Further you can't use cash to bypass effort or time, but again buy someone else' (where do you think the PLEX seller's isk comes from?).
Because it changes the whole foundation eve was built on. Because it gets it out of its niche. Because it gives customers feeling of inconsistency of the service they are getting. Etc. You would already know if you had read my posts on that subject :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 20:58:45 -
[6128] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Up until this juncture in the game, even with the bazaar there has been nothing which would allow a person to create a pilot from zero to whatever your wallet (Real / Game) permits. At this point you are now creating a scenario to which real money ( The CCP quote ) begins to take effect, Plus nobody can foresee what effect it will have on the plex. Like many others also i believe it could be used for cheap re-skilling of 5 to 50m bracket characters with little consequence.
If the Micro-transaction is the only way forward then i believe it would have far less repercussions if CCP were to just market a skill point package direct to the players account with its decaying values. No impact on the plex / market and available to anyone. And again, why does the fact that a pilots SP isn't capped by age a concern? Mechanically yes, it has been impossible to work around this, but that doesn't establish it as a mechanic worth maintaining. Also by equating progress with a sub you've already created an equivalency of money with progress. That sub had to be paid and enabled your training, thus making it a much more direct purchase of up to just shy of 2m SP than any conversion of PLEX to TSP. Your missing my point, even if its just by a single person for whom money is no object, because he could do it. Then imagine Eveboard with the same name at the top of all the lists. Its not logical but highly possible and when the TSP goes live even doable.
I did actually mean to put also in my previous post that once a player got to 50m the skill packages would cease to deliver any return.
@Rat scout : Your intellectual input is about 5 higher on the IQ scale than general lootit at least Tyberius uses his brain before typing and offers a proper discussion. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1817
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 21:01:11 -
[6129] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:a) Fresh update! I wasnt lazy so i found 2015 situation - http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68738/1/isk.float.3.png there was a growth of ~75%. So almost double. Let`s say it is double. Average wallet is 1bil isk. So people have all the knowledge they can have yet, they choose to not pursue the isk in the way you expect them. What does it show? That people do not really want to grind isk a lot. Since all the knowledge is available out there, you should expect that everyone would want to have larger stockpile to be able to afford some shiny segment of the game. Considering TSP are going to be at least third of their wallets, can you come up with some conclusion? b) You do not need to be genius to figure out that what applies to one can apply to others as well. I thought that was quite obvious, sorry for not drawing it. And even if it was just me, still proves you wrong as it means it is already in the game just not used by anyone else except me. So cannot be added as NEW benefit. So in any case you are wrong, but no worries I do not expect you to admit it e) I expected your logic to be enough. No one is crazy enough to donate hundreds of millions to brand new players for multiple reasons. 1 - Will they utilize it properly, 2 - will they continue to play and be worth of that investment, 3 - will they be valuable player worth investing in, 4- are they just a scammer who made an alt to go around and take TSPs? Just some of the quesitons why sane corp leaders will not give them out as your idea suggests g) I think i was quite clear when i wrote that supply of plexes can strech up a bit if the prices go up. And demand will grow up for sure. Ie after demand growing, prices will grow up followed by some supply growth. Then supply stops growing and demand is still there, meaning prices go up. Simple as that, not sure how that can be unclear h) The number is not static but limited. If one plex can get 4 extractors, there is no chance TSP will be cheaper than 1/4th of plex. Simple as that. +Cartels will make sure it goes up above that. k) Actually if they push them to go to low sec something might be worked out in that direction m) Not sure what you find inconsistent? See g) n) No, you were counter argumenting my claim that char bazaar will be still used for all higher sp chars due to diminishing returns. Therefore the char bazaar issue is not solved by TSP. Still I see no major benefit for player base. For some individuals surely. But if you take in considerations side effects then there is a question "why implement something and risk that can backfire badly when actual benefit is marginal"? a) So basically you found proof earnings potential isn't static. Seeing as that's exactly what I've been saying that pretty much proves my point. Based on the fact that it has changed in the past I don't think we'd be looking at this very realistically if we tried to conclude the numbers would stay that way in the future either. Amazing how that works. b) You apparently do need to be a genius to figure out that a point doesn't become wrong of invalid unless everyone agrees. You personally cannot act as a counterpoint to someone that does feel that way, nor can anyone else who feels personally the same as you. And considering the benefit for those individuals who do feel that way doesn't exist yet, Id call that pretty new. e) If their being given TSP by a group they're very likely being guided in use by the group. Regarding the rest, that's a risk taken with every new recruit as is when it comes to services offered for new players. Further it's just game play that's been around forever and hasn't cause the collapse or dysfunction of our social structures. g) Supply should stretch most with the demand for isk, not the price of PLEX. Hence why high prices aren't instantly self resolving. The driver for PLEX sales is buyers needing isk, and this gives a reason for that. h) I'm not saying the extractor isn't a fixed cost, I'm saying you're still viewing player earnings as static. k) Anywhere is more dangerous that being docked m) At this point I think we're just disagreeing with the idea of what fuels PLEX purchases n) It's solved by TSP in that TSP creates an alternative to reputation shifting. It doesn't have to kill that the Bazaar in order for that to be true. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1818
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 21:06:53 -
[6130] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Your missing my point, even if its just by a single person for whom money is no object, because he could do it. Then imagine Eveboard with the same name at the top of all the lists. Its not logical but highly possible and when the TSP goes live even doable. I did actually mean to put also in my previous post that once a player got to 50m the skill packages would cease to deliver any return. @Rat scout : Your intellectual input is about 5 higher on the IQ scale than general lootit at least Tyberius uses his brain before typing and offers a proper discussion. So instead of viewing SP for it's functional utility we're now looking at it as a contest and further, a contest which is entirely predetermined in it's results since there's no way to change the order of who got here first?
That's a hard to swallow justification. |
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 21:16:31 -
[6131] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Your missing my point, even if its just by a single person for whom money is no object, because he could do it. Then imagine Eveboard with the same name at the top of all the lists. Its not logical but highly possible and when the TSP goes live even doable. I did actually mean to put also in my previous post that once a player got to 50m the skill packages would cease to deliver any return. @Rat scout : Your intellectual input is about 5 higher on the IQ scale than general lootit at least Tyberius uses his brain before typing and offers a proper discussion. So instead of viewing SP for it's functional utility we're now looking at it as a contest and further, a contest which is entirely predetermined in it's results since there's no way to change the order of who got here first? That's a hard to swallow justification. Ive had a few discussions over different aspects but however hard it is to swallow over the money vs time invested quote it becomes reality with the TSP in its current incarnation. However illogical it maybe and in a different league to me you don't know who is behind any pilot and what there finances allow them to do.
If i was in any of those lists and became superseded by cash injected pilot the game would be over. |
Headless Prairie Dog
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 21:28:40 -
[6132] - Quote
Stop all the damn crying. If the game does not make cash you won't have anything to cry about. Do something else with your time. These arguments you think you are all making are not as intellectual as you believe they are. IT's A GAME. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1818
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 21:32:58 -
[6133] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:I`ve already told you why I`m not doing that. Your logic is shortsighted and self centric. I`m not wasting my time to seek that out only to provide you something you can do yourself. Plus, as I already stated, my cause and your cause are totally different. You fight for your personal cause, I fight for game sake. You are actually the one manipulating and just want to "win" at any cost since you think you are getting something. Actually YOU are the one who wanted answers and I told you where you can find them. As I already wrote it, this will be implemented and a year after it we will see who was right about it. I really hope it would be you, but due to all anecdotes I had with this game and all the side effects I mentioned I highly suspect that outcome.
And again, I am not dodging anything. You dodged to read them and comment them. In past (as you were active on the topic at that time) and now as well. I own you nothing and I can only look at you as an enemy since you are fighting for something which I see will cause a serious damage to the game. I can be polite but forget courtesy. I am not obliging you to anything at all, I just pointed out that if you want them you can read them. You have as many chances to do that as you want :) I'm aware of what you said, and I find the motivation to be lazy and self serving. If you want to try looking clever by turning those words back again fine. Just be aware that I find your stance ill supported and while I'll point it out on arguments you bring forth I won't seek out ones just as ill constructed to make you feel better.
That said everytime you do bring it up I'll continue confirming your intellectual laziness. I've given you several opportunities to confront me with them. That you won't is pretty telling.
Quote:I did not refute them. I refuted some which are wrong and some logical fallacies. On some I have agreed. But I keep stressing out that side effects are bigger than benefit. And that is why I am strongly against this idea. No, on that subject you asserted your observations could effectively classify the player base and further didn't actually establish a clear detriment. Remember, the issue of anecdote was limited to your claim about you observations of player development vs SP, not all of your arguments and opinions.
Also you're very weak on stating these side effects as well, but again we know the reason for that.
Quote:Lol. You have been active on this topic when those were posted. Yet you did not read/challenge them. Ie I have covered the subject weeks ago. And I am the one to blame if you act that you just showed up here and we should provide you links to previous discussions or whatever. Are you some official judge who will make a decision on the subject? Get real :D
As I mentioned already, if you were fighting for the games sake I would probably do it. But you are just posting to "win" over other side, you are not having discussion, you are waging private forum war over a subject you have no influence at all (neither does anyone else as CCP care about players feedback obviously). At least not like lootit and similar though.
I can`t copy/paste it since I do not remember where they are. And even posting here at all is a waste of time I can afford that much. But I do not want to search through the page 1 to find them. If CCP got the message then great, it was for them. Hope they will make sure to cover all possible side effects or at least assure as that will not happen. If anyone else wants to read it and think about it, put an effort. I`ll gladly repeat as often as you "challenge" . Simple as that.
For my ad hominem attacks I apologize. I was under impression that you and me have the same cause just the different POVs and I wanted to push you into taking someone`s else POV to see what I am talking about. Meanwhile I realized that your POV is after your own interests and while perfectly understandable stance, that is something totally unacceptable for me. For rationality of arguments, please respond to the list to provide the same. As now we got it to fundamentals, most of assumptions is out of play.
1. Now you openly lie, you just said that your skills were above your sp when you flew drake and were offered T3 :) 2. Interesting, how can you see through it when you did not read it? 3. As mentioned above I labeled you in order to "push" you to try other perspective. Later on I realized that since the start of the topic your POV and aim was the same. Not discussion and making the good for the game but just to win in fight for your personal benefit. Which is still egocentrical but acceptable since you fight for your own not for game, but it is same like discussion with Dror - a waste of time since the main ideas are totally diametrically opposed. I am posting for the games sake. I am posting because I believe this to be beneficial, even if I as a player have no use for it. But your selfcentric way of thinking concludes that can't be the case since you're convinced any person doing so would have to come to your same conclusion, or so it would appear.
1) No I didn't. I said my SP only barely allowed the piloting of a drake and NOT a T3, making the offer of one useless to me. I never claimed I was able to be a capable pilot of one or even that I am capable now. 2) You're currently posting and presenting your reasoning. There is more than enough for me to respond to and observe what you're doing. Including the next bit. 3) Fortunately most people even on your side of this debate can see through this BS. You haven't done anything remotely close to properly describing me as a player, so it's no wonder you've done such a poor job of guessing my motivations. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
217
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 21:33:21 -
[6134] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:a) So basically you found proof earnings potential isn't static. Seeing as that's exactly what I've been saying that pretty much proves my point. Based on the fact that it has changed in the past I don't think we'd be looking at this very realistically if we tried to conclude the numbers would stay that way in the future either. Amazing how that works. b) You apparently do need to be a genius to figure out that a point doesn't become wrong of invalid unless everyone agrees. You personally cannot act as a counterpoint to someone that does feel that way, nor can anyone else who feels personally the same as you. And considering the benefit for those individuals who do feel that way doesn't exist yet, Id call that pretty new. e) If their being given TSP by a group they're very likely being guided in use by the group. Regarding the rest, that's a risk taken with every new recruit as is when it comes to services offered for new players. Further it's just game play that's been around forever and hasn't cause the collapse or dysfunction of our social structures. g) Supply should stretch most with the demand for isk, not the price of PLEX. Hence why high prices aren't instantly self resolving. The driver for PLEX sales is buyers needing isk, and this gives a reason for that. h) I'm not saying the extractor isn't a fixed cost, I'm saying you're still viewing player earnings as static. k) Anywhere is more dangerous that being docked m) At this point I think we're just disagreeing with the idea of what fuels PLEX purchases n) It's solved by TSP in that TSP creates an alternative to reputation shifting. It doesn't have to kill that the Bazaar in order for that to be true.
a) Quality of your posting is going downhill. No one ever said it is static. Other way we would all be at 0 isk as that is how much we start with. I stated that even though people have skills and knowledge they will not pursue in grinding the isk as much as you expect. If we really go into details we can easily see that rich are getting richer in eve as well, so majority of the growth would be from people who are already high above average. But for the sake of discussion I rounded it up on double amount it was in past. The point still remains, average player will find the price of TSP quite expensive considering what they gain (~week of training) b) So what you are saying, is that whatever you say I can say its wrong and that`s i? :D Ok, will make the whole discussion quite faster. You are wrong for me, I am wrong for you, end of story. Now on a serious note, if you add something as added benefit which will come with this change and I point out that we already have that available in the game therefore it does not represent any new, added value, how can you not be wrong? e) Of course it is a risk and a very same reason why no one gives hundreds of millions worth of anything to brand new players. Can`t you see you are wrong again or we have to agree on it? :D g) I am not sure if you are trolling me or not. Demand is driving the prices up, meaning that with the same cash investment plex sellers will get more isk. They do not even need to supply more and they will still get more isk. Only reason the supply will rise in some amount is when plex goes sky high some more players will buy plexes. But not in the amount to drive the price down. So only one thing is 100% certain, current plexes will go up in the price. h) But I am not. Nothing is static in player driven game. I was speaking about average player with average sp, I did not make case study for each segment there. Their income is not static, plex prices are not static, TSP price wont be static. If we look at the cheapest option it will be very expensive for average player. k) Yes but if you want to do it properly, you need to be sure the chances for that are maximized :) m) I actually think you lack xp/knowledge with economy and market laws. Especially in the game like this, where market is easy to control and monopolize on n) But it "solves" it only for young chars since diminishing returns make sure it is not worth doing it later on. If you have 80 mil sp char and want to get to 100mil sp you need to purchase 400 TSPs which will be at least worth 100 PLEX. You can easily purchase much higher sp chars for less investment on char bazaar. If you have 50mil sp char to get to 65mil you can do it cheaper as well (cba to run more calcs, you get the picture). And that is with starting price of TSP, with time it will just go up...
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
217
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 21:38:48 -
[6135] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Your missing my point, even if its just by a single person for whom money is no object, because he could do it. Then imagine Eveboard with the same name at the top of all the lists. Its not logical but highly possible and when the TSP goes live even doable. I did actually mean to put also in my previous post that once a player got to 50m the skill packages would cease to deliver any return. @Rat scout : Your intellectual input is about 5 higher on the IQ scale than general lootit at least Tyberius uses his brain before typing and offers a proper discussion. So instead of viewing SP for it's functional utility we're now looking at it as a contest and further, a contest which is entirely predetermined in it's results since there's no way to change the order of who got here first? That's a hard to swallow justification.
Then let`s listen to Dror and make it Counter Strike Gungame version of Eve? All SP unlocked, unlimited isk. Even without sarcasm, this is direction we are heading....
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1819
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 21:41:20 -
[6136] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Your missing my point, even if its just by a single person for whom money is no object, because he could do it. Then imagine Eveboard with the same name at the top of all the lists. Its not logical but highly possible and when the TSP goes live even doable. I did actually mean to put also in my previous post that once a player got to 50m the skill packages would cease to deliver any return. @Rat scout : Your intellectual input is about 5 higher on the IQ scale than general lootit at least Tyberius uses his brain before typing and offers a proper discussion. So instead of viewing SP for it's functional utility we're now looking at it as a contest and further, a contest which is entirely predetermined in it's results since there's no way to change the order of who got here first? That's a hard to swallow justification. Ive had a few discussions over different aspects but however hard it is to swallow over the money vs time invested quote it becomes reality with the TSP in its current incarnation. However illogical it maybe and in a different league to me you don't know who is behind any pilot and what there finances allow them to do. If i was in any of those lists and became superseded by cash injected pilot the game would be over. Time is invested either way, that some people may soon be able to trade theirs doesn't make it any less the investment of time. And the investment of cash can still only buy SP in the form of a sub directly. Otherwise it can only be used to buy someones actually invested in game time (vs just buying the sub and not investing time in gameplay).
So we have some conveniently ignored facts: 1) Cash for SP is the mechanic in play now via subs 2) All this does is allow that SP to be shuffled 3) Access purchased is not time invested 4) PLEX already relocates actual time investment
Combine these and we see that whatever metric you're using to measure Hilmar's words is either flawed or was wrong well before he ever stated it. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1819
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 21:42:31 -
[6137] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Your missing my point, even if its just by a single person for whom money is no object, because he could do it. Then imagine Eveboard with the same name at the top of all the lists. Its not logical but highly possible and when the TSP goes live even doable. I did actually mean to put also in my previous post that once a player got to 50m the skill packages would cease to deliver any return. @Rat scout : Your intellectual input is about 5 higher on the IQ scale than general lootit at least Tyberius uses his brain before typing and offers a proper discussion. So instead of viewing SP for it's functional utility we're now looking at it as a contest and further, a contest which is entirely predetermined in it's results since there's no way to change the order of who got here first? That's a hard to swallow justification. Then let`s listen to Dror and make it Counter Strike Gungame version of Eve? All SP unlocked, unlimited isk. Even without sarcasm, this is direction we are heading.... No, it's not. But I guess if you don't have an argument you can always just throw something absurd out to try to deflect. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
217
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 22:00:47 -
[6138] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I'm aware of what you said, and I find the motivation to be lazy and self serving. If you want to try looking clever by turning those words back again fine. Just be aware that I find your stance ill supported and while I'll point it out on arguments you bring forth I won't seek out ones just as ill constructed to make you feel better.
That said everytime you do bring it up I'll continue confirming your intellectual laziness. I've given you several opportunities to confront me with them. That you won't is pretty telling.
Arguments we are discussing in your list are not even among major concerns I wrote about. You would know if you read them. You have opportunity 24/7 to go and read. That you won`t is pretty telling
Tyberius Franklin wrote:No, on that subject you asserted your observations could effectively classify the player base and further didn't actually establish a clear detriment. Remember, the issue of anecdote was limited to your claim about you observations of player development vs SP, not all of your arguments and opinions.
Also you're very weak on stating these side effects as well, but again we know the reason for that.
In order to know if they are weak, you would have to go and read them first Empty, shallow classifications wont help.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I am posting for the games sake. I am posting because I believe this to be beneficial, even if I as a player have no use for it. But your selfcentric way of thinking concludes that can't be the case since you're convinced any person doing so would have to come to your same conclusion, or so it would appear.
1) No I didn't. I said my SP only barely allowed the piloting of a drake and NOT a T3, making the offer of one useless to me. I never claimed I was able to be a capable pilot of one or even that I am capable now. 2) You're currently posting and presenting your reasoning. There is more than enough for me to respond to and observe what you're doing. Including the next bit. 3) Fortunately most people even on your side of this debate can see through this BS. You haven't done anything remotely close to properly describing me as a player, so it's no wonder you've done such a poor job of guessing my motivations.
So you are posting because you believe it is beneficial, yet you cannot make any argument why it is beneficial to eve player base instead of minority plus you do not even want to read side effects mentioned by others. I totally trust you
I do not think everyone have to come to the same conclusion I had. Even when stated my wots i said numerous times I just need someone to explain me what is wrong there, am I over worried for the game. I wrote my concerns to CCP so they can "comfort" me. To keep me and numerous others as customers. I have no problem at all to accept some points in discussion when point is made. I even agreed to some points you have made to be beneficial (even though they are not beneficial for a major player base).
1. Ok, then i understood it wrong, sorry (yet I do not believe you but nvm) 2. No, I am just countering your list, since I do not find anything beneficial for major player base there and I find huge threats in side effects. Not even sure how did we get to these other quotes since I stopped most of the posting hundreds pages ago. My main reasoning is in 4-5 WOT`s somewhere in this thread. And while you state it as weak, you should be able to challenge it easily. Instead you go in digressions, claiming you are not wrong even when it is obvious you are etc. 3. Yea because you totally could not lie, speaking form alt character. Totally trustworthy approach.We all believe you. Or to say it in your manner "fortunately most people even on your side of this debate can see through this BS. Reason why they support you is that they have same aims in personal gains aimed, trolling or lack of knowledge/understanding". See what I did there?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1821
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 22:00:58 -
[6139] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: a) Quality of your posting is going downhill. No one ever said it is static. Other way we would all be at 0 isk as that is how much we start with. I stated that even though people have skills and knowledge they will not pursue in grinding the isk as much as you expect. If we really go into details we can easily see that rich are getting richer in eve as well, so majority of the growth would be from people who are already high above average. But for the sake of discussion I rounded it up on double amount it was in past. The point still remains, average player will find the price of TSP quite expensive considering what they gain (~week of training) b) So what you are saying, is that whatever you say I can say its wrong and that`s i? :D Ok, will make the whole discussion quite faster. You are wrong for me, I am wrong for you, end of story. Now on a serious note, if you add something as added benefit which will come with this change and I point out that we already have that available in the game therefore it does not represent any new, added value, how can you not be wrong? e) Of course it is a risk and a very same reason why no one gives hundreds of millions worth of anything to brand new players. Can`t you see you are wrong again or we have to agree on it? :D g) I am not sure if you are trolling me or not. Demand is driving the prices up, meaning that with the same cash investment plex sellers will get more isk. They do not even need to supply more and they will still get more isk. Only reason the supply will rise in some amount is when plex goes sky high some more players will buy plexes. But not in the amount to drive the price down. So only one thing is 100% certain, current plexes will go up in the price. h) But I am not. Nothing is static in player driven game. I was speaking about average player with average sp, I did not make case study for each segment there. Their income is not static, plex prices are not static, TSP price wont be static. If we look at the cheapest option it will be very expensive for average player. k) Yes but if you want to do it properly, you need to be sure the chances for that are maximized :) m) I actually think you lack xp/knowledge with economy and market laws. Especially in the game like this, where market is easy to control and monopolize on n) But it "solves" it only for young chars since diminishing returns make sure it is not worth doing it later on. If you have 80 mil sp char and want to get to 100mil sp you need to purchase 400 TSPs which will be at least worth 100 PLEX. You can easily purchase much higher sp chars for less investment on char bazaar. If you have 50mil sp char to get to 65mil you can do it cheaper as well (cba to run more calcs, you get the picture). And that is with starting price of TSP, with time it will just go up...
a) No, you just made an argument predicated on it being static. One that states the option to ear more isk isn't valid and used average wallet values, a static metric, as an attempt at proof. It's not that the quality of my posts is going down, it's that your shaky logic is getting easier to quickly address quickly. That and knowing what irrelevant filler to avoid biting. b) No, I'm saying that you saying you don't feel that way is correct, and that others you know not feeling that way is also correct (assuming you've interpreted that correctly), but also that any subset that doesn't feel that way doesn't invalidate the subset that does. Therefore no single players individual feelings, or even a group of players feelings on the matter makes that point wrong unless that group is every player in the game. e) Most things worth that much aren't useful to those players, this is a large exception to that rule that mitigates the traditional risks associated with giving high value rewards to new players. Think about how this works mechanically for a moment vs anything else you could give a new player. g)In game demand drives in game prices, but not out of game demand. Out of game demand depresses prices, and a need for in game isk drives out of game demand. If this is as you say a driver for isk need it will drive out of game purchases and further increase PLEX supply. That depresses in game cost. h) Average SP is a moving point in a veteran driven game, so the very basis of you argument is a point with an generally upward velocity. k) I'm not in any particular disagreement with the direction, just that the metric stands even without pushing people to lowsec m) I think you're just not properly accounting for the reasons for PLEX purchases from CCP. n) Then is solves it for that segment, which is a gain. How important that is in that period for a player, and thus the long term effects, are highly speculative, but at the least you see there is an effect. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
217
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 22:02:49 -
[6140] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Your missing my point, even if its just by a single person for whom money is no object, because he could do it. Then imagine Eveboard with the same name at the top of all the lists. Its not logical but highly possible and when the TSP goes live even doable. I did actually mean to put also in my previous post that once a player got to 50m the skill packages would cease to deliver any return. @Rat scout : Your intellectual input is about 5 higher on the IQ scale than general lootit at least Tyberius uses his brain before typing and offers a proper discussion. So instead of viewing SP for it's functional utility we're now looking at it as a contest and further, a contest which is entirely predetermined in it's results since there's no way to change the order of who got here first? That's a hard to swallow justification. Then let`s listen to Dror and make it Counter Strike Gungame version of Eve? All SP unlocked, unlimited isk. Even without sarcasm, this is direction we are heading.... No, it's not. But I guess if you don't have an argument you can always just throw something absurd out to try to deflect.
Speaking from experience I`d say
And yes, it is, the journey of thousand miles starts with a step. Well guess what, this is not even first step in this direction.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 22:15:38 -
[6141] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote: Your playing it how you want to play it but because you treat it like a second job to fund your gameplay you have little time left for the finer parts of the game and its content.
I treat it like game in which I can get advantege through actually playing. Or it's not? So I could understand why some people screaming
Obsidian Crowe wrote:Please god no. You will make EVE play to win
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1823
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 22:22:03 -
[6142] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Arguments we are discussing in your list are not even among major concerns I wrote about. You would know if you read them. You have opportunity 24/7 to go and read. That you won`t is pretty telling Not saying they are, just that your posting here does give me some ideas about your reasoning as a whole, but leaves a few questions unanswered. I don't think those answers will have much meaning given what you've provided though.
But you have a post history same as everyone else' and could easily resolve this. You keep talking up these posts but won't present them .That you don't is pretty telling.
Quote:In order to know if they are weak, you would have to go and read them first Empty, shallow classifications wont help. Yet shallow classifications are the lens you've been using to view me for a while now. I genuinely wonder if you're capable of viewing me as an individual capable of individual thought and conclusion instead of the agenda you've constructed and spent so much time trying to mold me into.
Quote:So you are posting because you believe it is beneficial, yet you cannot make any argument why it is beneficial to eve player base instead of minority plus you do not even want to read side effects mentioned by others. I totally trust you I do not think everyone have to come to the same conclusion I had. Even when stated my wots i said numerous times I just need someone to explain me what is wrong there, am I over worried for the game. I wrote my concerns to CCP so they can "comfort" me. To keep me and numerous others as customers. I have no problem at all to accept some points in discussion when point is made. I even agreed to some points you have made to be beneficial (even though they are not beneficial for a major player base). 1. Ok, then i understood it wrong, sorry (yet I do not believe you but nvm) 2. No, I am just countering your list, since I do not find anything beneficial for major player base there and I find huge threats in side effects. Not even sure how did we get to these other quotes since I stopped most of the posting hundreds pages ago. My main reasoning is in 4-5 WOT`s somewhere in this thread. And while you state it as weak, you should be able to challenge it easily. Instead you go in digressions, claiming you are not wrong even when it is obvious you are etc. 3. Yea because you totally could not lie, speaking form alt character. Totally trustworthy approach.We all believe you. Or to say it in your manner "fortunately most people even on your side of this debate can see through this BS. Reason why they support you is that they have same aims in personal gains aimed, trolling or lack of knowledge/understanding". See what I did there? I made a list of them, you just keep marginalizing it or worse wholly misrepresenting parts of the argument.
As far as reading side effect, go ahead and post them. I've responded to many on that very subject beyond even this thread. That you want me to feel obligated to you specifically to seek out your thoughts on the matter isn't a feeling I share. If you want me to respond, post it.
1) Don't care if you do or don't, mainly because, again, I'm led to believe you aren't actually trying to understand the person here anymore, but rather use the 2) The larger portion of the player base will have this as mere background noise. A feature with little use and not much point in investing in as a seller. That's because we're largely years old vets. But if the claim is, as it seems to be here, that this dynamic is not helpful or beneficial to that large population that it isn't to those that could and would use it then I can't help but feel that my earlier analysis of your myopic viewpoint is further justified.You're basically saying "no matter how much it could help this group, since each benefit doesn't effect everyone none of it matters." 3) I could, but the most important thing to bear in mind is that one of our positions is defensible simply by sticking to the topic, where the other feels the need to play the "for your benefit" card when trying to make any argument. On top of that, to the best of your knowledge I could just as well not be lying. But for some reason that possibility is easy for you to ignore. Convenience maybe? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1823
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 22:24:18 -
[6143] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Speaking from experience I`d say And yes, it is, the journey of thousand miles starts with a step. Well guess what, this is not even first step in this direction. Ok, so basically you just described a slippery slope fallacy and tried to make it sound like the right way to make a point.
Also I've been painfully direct in my responses to you, that you would suggest I have a problem with deflection is laughable.
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Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 22:31:00 -
[6144] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Your missing my point, even if its just by a single person for whom money is no object, because he could do it. Then imagine Eveboard with the same name at the top of all the lists. Its not logical but highly possible and when the TSP goes live even doable. I did actually mean to put also in my previous post that once a player got to 50m the skill packages would cease to deliver any return. @Rat scout : Your intellectual input is about 5 higher on the IQ scale than general lootit at least Tyberius uses his brain before typing and offers a proper discussion. So instead of viewing SP for it's functional utility we're now looking at it as a contest and further, a contest which is entirely predetermined in it's results since there's no way to change the order of who got here first? That's a hard to swallow justification. Ive had a few discussions over different aspects but however hard it is to swallow over the money vs time invested quote it becomes reality with the TSP in its current incarnation. However illogical it maybe and in a different league to me you don't know who is behind any pilot and what there finances allow them to do. If i was in any of those lists and became superseded by cash injected pilot the game would be over. Time is invested either way, that some people may soon be able to trade theirs doesn't make it any less the investment of time. And the investment of cash can still only buy SP in the form of a sub directly. Otherwise it can only be used to buy someones actually invested in game time (vs just buying the sub and not investing time in gameplay). So we have some conveniently ignored facts: 1) Cash for SP is the mechanic in play now via subs 2) All this does is allow that SP to be shuffled 3) Access purchased is not time invested 4) PLEX already relocates actual time investment Combine these and we see that whatever metric you're using to measure Hilmar's words is either flawed or was wrong well before he ever stated it. Im not disagreeing with anything you stated above, What im trying to get you to see is however bizarre it may seem if the TSP goes live is that 13 years of training can be superseded by someone with enough financial clout to buy his way straight to the top of the ranking lists. I understand that any TSP injected has been trained in real time by someone but even the bazaar wont allow you near the top ranked people, you cannot take 3 x 100m skill point characters and combine into a 300 mill pilot . The TSP will if you have the money to throw at it. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
217
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 22:37:50 -
[6145] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:a) No, you just made an argument predicated on it being static. One that states the option to ear more isk isn't valid and used average wallet values, a static metric, as an attempt at proof. It's not that the quality of my posts is going down, it's that your shaky logic is getting easier to quickly address quickly. That and knowing what irrelevant filler to avoid biting. b) No, I'm saying that you saying you don't feel that way is correct, and that others you know not feeling that way is also correct (assuming you've interpreted that correctly), but also that any subset that doesn't feel that way doesn't invalidate the subset that does. Therefore no single players individual feelings, or even a group of players feelings on the matter makes that point wrong unless that group is every player in the game. e) Most things worth that much aren't useful to those players, this is a large exception to that rule that mitigates the traditional risks associated with giving high value rewards to new players. Think about how this works mechanically for a moment vs anything else you could give a new player. g)In game demand drives in game prices, but not out of game demand. Out of game demand depresses prices, and a need for in game isk drives out of game demand. If this is as you say a driver for isk need it will drive out of game purchases and further increase PLEX supply. That depresses in game cost. h) Average SP is a moving point in a veteran driven game, so the very basis of you argument is a point with an generally upward velocity. k) I'm not in any particular disagreement with the direction, just that the metric stands even without pushing people to lowsec m) I think you're just not properly accounting for the reasons for PLEX purchases from CCP. n) Then is solves it for that segment, which is a gain. How important that is in that period for a player, and thus the long term effects, are highly speculative, but at the least you see there is an effect.
a) I can understand that you do not understand economy at all. But to blindly deny being wrong so many times does not come with the "game sake posting". You are on your own crusade. Now let me explain you something. Economy is not static. Not income, neither expenses. Higher income for average players will demand higher expenses. In average there could probably be parallel line of expenses compared to income. Why? Because in order to go make isk, they will get lose ships, ammo, poses, hauls, whatever. So it is not like they just need to go out and make isk. That is why that line is not vertical. Another graph line in that graph clearly shows slow trend of growth. You cannot see incredible growth when the new ships or other stuff hit the server. Why not? Everyone can earn isk, knowledge is accessible by everyone, everyone wants new stuff? If average wallet was 500mil why not quadriple so everyone buys new battleships? Why not then? Because people are not bots, nor they are willing to sacrifice their comfort zone just like that. And that is the very same reason it will not go boom for SP, and why TSP will remain expansive for average players. And also, that is why you are egocentrical. You do not have knowledge about something, you do not understand it, yet you do not want to admit to be wrong (so you dont lose your crusade i`d guess). b) But we are not hakuna matata society, there is no chance for everyone in the game to agree on a single subject. The thing is about choices, you can choose now to have it that way, so in future nothing will change. You will still have choice to identify with your char, same as purchasing new one from char bazaar. e) Not really, give someone 300mils and he can make a fortune of the market. Instructions how to do it are there, open to everyone. Perfect scenario while you "sit and wait skills to finish". Why we do not see corps doing that? Even for older chars, will they rather give him full fitted bs to go and earn isk or they will give him 300 mils to gain something he would already have next week anyway? g) Out of game demand? Are you drunk? I was totally right with quote in previous post regarding "coming from experience". What out of game demand you digressed to? We are talking about Eve Online, Plex and TSP. Please comment on those since I am not aware of any out of game demand for isk (unless Icelands currency), plex or TSP. h) Average SP is not static, same as wallet. Regardless if it is veteran driven or not. Both grow at certain rate. Yet it does not affect my point at all and I find the lack of your counter argument disturbing! Just kidding, I am not surprised at all :) Therefore my point stands - If we look at the cheapest option it will be very expensive for average player. k) That way you get two birds with one stone - people get destroyed (proven by CCP as a major factor in retention rate), low sec becomes more active, people organize themselves as pirate hunters etc etc. Much more addition to content than TSP :) m) There is one main reason for people who purchase plex from ccp - they want isk without investing time. Vice versa for those who purchase plex from the market - they give their time investment to earn that isk in exchange for "cash" ie subscription. So far, those who were purchasing plexes for subscription were key demand factor for plexes, now there is going to be more demand. Do you think rise in plex prices will hit those who subscribe that way as well? I am quite sure it will n) So we can agree that it actually works for only small part of their intention? Ie they are implementing something which has some benefits for some minorities without taking in consideration the majority of player base? Especially after so much negative feedback on it? If I had a multimilion usd/eur business I would be way more careful with such decisions.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
217
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 22:43:14 -
[6146] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Speaking from experience I`d say And yes, it is, the journey of thousand miles starts with a step. Well guess what, this is not even first step in this direction. Ok, so basically you just described a slippery slope fallacy and tried to make it sound like the right way to make a point. Also I've been painfully direct in my responses to you, that you would suggest I have a problem with deflection is laughable.
It could be called slippery slope fallacy if ccp/eve were doing great and improving in all aspects. Since it is almost the quite opposite and as someone who is here from the very start and who can witness all those steps I can easily state that I do not like the direction. Counter strike was a sarcasm and I even wrote it, eve will die before it makes it to there, but direction is already taken whether you like it or not.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1823
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 22:44:24 -
[6147] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Im not disagreeing with anything you stated above, What im trying to get you to see is however bizarre it may seem if the TSP goes live is that 13 years of training can be superseded by someone with enough financial clout to buy his way straight to the top of the ranking lists. I understand that any TSP injected has been trained in real time by someone but even the bazaar wont allow you near the top ranked people, you cannot take 3 x 100m skill point characters and combine into a 300 mill pilot . The TSP will if you have the money to throw at it. To be blunt, while high SP is taken as a manner of bragging rights, it's only a measure of tenure and literally just a function thereof. While I do think there's nothing wrong with games rewarding tenure, even with exclusive types of progression, I'm not sure I can be convinced such a status is worthy of specific recognition beyond that.
I could easily be convinced that for those who find EB important that the time only trained characters be able to be told apart from those who used TSP and further keeping those ranks defined accordingly.
But beyond that I'm forced to bear in mind the investment of thousands of TSP from billions of extracted SP for a single character is a proposition bordering on the absurd. While definitely possible assuming SP availability, it's not a reality I would count on. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 22:45:42 -
[6148] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote: Im not disagreeing with anything you stated above, What im trying to get you to see is however bizarre it may seem if the TSP goes live is that 13 years of training can be superseded by someone with enough financial clout to buy his way straight to the top of the ranking lists. I understand that any TSP injected has been trained in real time by someone but even the bazaar wont allow you near the top ranked people, you cannot take 3 x 100m skill point characters and combine into a 300 mill pilot . The TSP will if you have the money to throw at it.
Should we care about minority of that top list? Don one of them and he don't care about others minorities so why we I shoud if he doesn't? "The king is dead, long live the king!" |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
19
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 22:58:32 -
[6149] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Im not disagreeing with anything you stated above, What im trying to get you to see is however bizarre it may seem if the TSP goes live is that 13 years of training can be superseded by someone with enough financial clout to buy his way straight to the top of the ranking lists. I understand that any TSP injected has been trained in real time by someone but even the bazaar wont allow you near the top ranked people, you cannot take 3 x 100m skill point characters and combine into a 300 mill pilot . The TSP will if you have the money to throw at it. To be blunt, while high SP is taken as a manner of bragging rights, it's only a measure of tenure and literally just a function thereof. While I do think there's nothing wrong with games rewarding tenure, even with exclusive types of progression, I'm not sure I can be convinced such a status is worthy of specific recognition beyond that. I could easily be convinced that for those who find EB important that the time only trained characters be able to be told apart from those who used TSP and further keeping those ranks defined accordingly. But beyond that I'm forced to bear in mind the investment of thousands of TSP from billions of extracted SP for a single character is a proposition bordering on the absurd. While definitely possible assuming SP availability, it's not a reality I would count on. Like i said initially though, however illogical it may seem it becomes a reality with a TSP. The investment of money in EVE will give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 23:01:33 -
[6150] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Like i said initially though, however illogical it may seem it becomes a reality with a TSP. The investment of money in EVE will give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. It will be compensated by gaining fair advantage through playing time. |
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
217
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 23:09:56 -
[6151] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Not saying they are, just that your posting here does give me some ideas about your reasoning as a whole, but leaves a few questions unanswered. I don't think those answers will have much meaning given what you've provided though.
But you have a post history same as everyone else' and could easily resolve this. You keep talking up these posts but won't present them .That you don't is pretty telling.
Pardon me being stubborn then. As I stated, I believe you are fighting this "forum war" for your own personal gain and as cuh opponent I have no intention to make anything easier for you. Especially since even if you agree to everything I said it does not change anything for you, game or me. Ie this change is done deal. I`ve got myself baited on some of your posts regarding that list or some bs like "we already have this" and started replying it because I got carried away. Now I have to explain you the wrongs in the list or it will be a huge waste of time. If I manage to do it at least someone learned something, all good.
Regarding my post history, feel free to use it, it is public :)
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Yet shallow classifications are the lens you've been using to view me for a while now. I genuinely wonder if you're capable of viewing me as an individual capable of individual thought and conclusion instead of the agenda you've constructed and spent so much time trying to mold me into.
Unfortunately, I doubt I will change my opinion about you. Your way of posting and going through this discussion tells me I am right. You are individual capable of individual though and conclusion, just biased in direction of personal gain and dedicated to not "lose forum war by any means necessary". Maybe I am wrong, but that is my burden to carry :)
[quote]So you are posting because you believe it is beneficial, yet you cannot make any argument why it is beneficial to eve player base instead of minority plus you do not even want to read side effects mentioned by others. I totally trust you
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I made a list of them, you just keep marginalizing it or worse wholly misrepresenting parts of the argument.
As far as reading side effect, go ahead and post them. I've responded to many on that very subject beyond even this thread. That you want me to feel obligated to you specifically to seek out your thoughts on the matter isn't a feeling I share. If you want me to respond, post it.
1) Don't care if you do or don't, mainly because, again, I'm led to believe you aren't actually trying to understand the person here anymore, but rather use the 2) The larger portion of the player base will have this as mere background noise. A feature with little use and not much point in investing in as a seller. That's because we're largely years old vets. But if the claim is, as it seems to be here, that this dynamic is not helpful or beneficial to that large population that it isn't to those that could and would use it then I can't help but feel that my earlier analysis of your myopic viewpoint is further justified.You're basically saying "no matter how much it could help this group, since each benefit doesn't effect everyone none of it matters." 3) I could, but the most important thing to bear in mind is that one of our positions is defensible simply by sticking to the topic, where the other feels the need to play the "for your benefit" card when trying to make any argument. On top of that, to the best of your knowledge I could just as well not be lying. But for some reason that possibility is easy for you to ignore. Convenience maybe?
I do not keep marginalizing it, I am providing you arguments what and why is wrong there. For some points I have agreed, would I do it if I had agenda of dissing you or "winning a forum war"?
1. How can I understand a person who keeps twisting out arguments or digressing when pointed his fallacy? You are not posting for understanding but for "win" 2. As I said numerous times, I do not have a problem with something being beneficial to a minor group. There was a tons of such changes in past, there will be in future as well. Difference is, their side effects could not affect other, more serious issues. And we have potentially serious side effects here. 3. Yes, but topic was not about my impression of you or vice versa :) In theory yes, you could be telling the truth as well. But seeing how fiercely you do not want to admit you are wrong for any single point, even for obviously wrong ones I tend to believe you will rather lie than admit being wrong. That completes my impression that you are fighting this forum war for your personal cause.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1827
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 23:15:58 -
[6152] - Quote
a) I see no issue with denying being wrong when I'm not wrong. You just provided evidence that wallet values aren't static, which suggests earnings potentials aren't static. You failed to present evidence suggesting they are. Rather you only provided snapshots giving an average of the realized earnings. Beyond that the logic you're moving into is fundamentally flawed because even if earning isk has a set cost, so long as the added return outstrips those costs you've succeeded in increasing your isk earning. And learning how to maximize return and minimize risk will contribute to that. That's simple fact. One doesn't need a crusade to make that apparent, though some seem willing to wage one to pretend that's not the case/ b) Now: If a player wants to advance faster than passive training will allow while keeping their identity, they can't. If this goes through: If a player wants to advance faster than passive training will allow while keeping their identity, they can. How terribly simple is that? e) I'm wondering if you have any consistent internal logic at play here. You just went into a whole tirade on point a) about how non-trivial you saw increasing isk supply, but explain the triviality of it here. Further, giving raw isk doesn't actually meet the idea of "mitigating traditional risks" and further makes assumptions of this new player and their understanding of markets in general and Eve's markets in particular. g) Where do PLEX come from? Where is there origin? Oh right, out of game purchase from CCP for real money. The single point of sale that determines the whole of the supply available in game. And why do people make that out of game purchase? Because they want isk in game. So yes, isk drives out of game demand for PLEX, as opposed to in game demand which is driven by need for game time or other services. h) Well yeah you're not surprised, because you're still looking at a snapshot with a system not in play then making it a comparison to when it is in play and not accommodating further direct and indirect growth. I mean sure, if you assume the quantity is roughtly static then ignore people who tell you it isn't that's the closed minded solution you get. k) Again, not disagreeing. m)PLEX already serve plenty of additional functions which have considerable demand. Given the rate at which this function actually consumes PLEX is unknown but is likely to introduce PLEX for the very reason you state people buy that we're looking at a speculation either way n) It works for everyone intended for that point, but it was never claimed that that was the majority of players. Same a b). Maybe the issue here is that you think I'm saying something is true for the entire user base. I'm not on either, I'm just saying the affected parts of the user base aren't worth ignoring small as they may be.
Regarding the majority, that's tricky because as we've seen here those "loyal" customers are prone to kneejerk threats that try to hold the developers hostage. At some point the development by committee will fail and those same players will have no one but themselves to blame despite still pointing at the developers. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1827
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 23:17:21 -
[6153] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Like i said initially though, however illogical it may seem it becomes a reality with a TSP. The investment of money in EVE will give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. And as I stated before that, It's a non issue since it's not really a competition. It a list of "people who got here first".
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1832
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 23:34:47 -
[6154] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Pardon me being stubborn then. As I stated, I believe you are fighting this "forum war" for your own personal gain and as cuh opponent I have no intention to make anything easier for you. Especially since even if you agree to everything I said it does not change anything for you, game or me. Ie this change is done deal. I`ve got myself baited on some of your posts regarding that list or some bs like "we already have this" and started replying it because I got carried away. Now I have to explain you the wrongs in the list or it will be a huge waste of time. If I manage to do it at least someone learned something, all good.
Regarding my post history, feel free to use it, it is public :) As stated before, if you want me to respond top something, present it. And no, I haven't been agreeing with a lot of what you state. Maybe it's the way in which you are stating it, but every time I start a section of a post with the word "No" it should be a direct indication that I believe your position to be incorrect.
Don ZOLA wrote:Unfortunately, I doubt I will change my opinion about you. Your way of posting and going through this discussion tells me I am right. You are individual capable of individual though and conclusion, just biased in direction of personal gain and dedicated to not "lose forum war by any means necessary". Maybe I am wrong, but that is my burden to carry :) It's a non-factor. It doesn't actually detract from anything I've said but does cloud your counterpoints due to being more about what you think of me than the topic, so it may be in your interest to reconsider what's coming across.
Quote:So you are posting because you believe it is beneficial, yet you cannot make any argument why it is beneficial to eve player base instead of minority plus you do not even want to read side effects mentioned by others. I totally trust you Considering a lkist oif benefits exists, that minority some of the parts focus on are the focus of the change and only a small portion of the list was directed at them specifically yes, I've done as you requested. Shall I repost it for you?
Quote:I do not keep marginalizing it, I am providing you arguments what and why is wrong there. For some points I have agreed, would I do it if I had agenda of dissing you or "winning a forum war"?
1. How can I understand a person who keeps twisting out arguments or digressing when pointed his fallacy? You are not posting for understanding but for "win" 2. As I said numerous times, I do not have a problem with something being beneficial to a minor group. There was a tons of such changes in past, there will be in future as well. Difference is, their side effects could not affect other, more serious issues. And we have potentially serious side effects here. 3. Yes, but topic was not about my impression of you or vice versa :) In theory yes, you could be telling the truth as well. But seeing how fiercely you do not want to admit you are wrong for any single point, even for obviously wrong ones I tend to believe you will rather lie than admit being wrong. That completes my impression that you are fighting this forum war for your personal cause. Yes you so. "If it's not for the majority it doesn't count" is a familiar theme. "If it's a small subset it's not a benefit" is an argument you just made in this same post. That's marginalization.
1) The only reason you see it as twisting is because you're inserting that unhealthy bias. I've been very consistent. 2) Yet one of your counter point is consistently "you cannot make any argument why it is beneficial to eve player base instead of minority" when the change it designed to benefit that minority specifically. And as has been stated prior, for everyone it still allows for greater control over skills via the ability to remove them than anything current with the complete lack of alternatives, which is something I've brought up in the past as well, and am willing to restate. 3) So funny thing here, some guy who's doing the exact same things as me (point by point prolonged counterargument) in an online forum says that because I argue means my position can't be trusted, but he gets to do the same without question. How does that work while maintaining intellectual honesty? |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 23:42:29 -
[6155] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Your missing my point, even if its just by a single person for whom money is no object, because he could do it. Then imagine Eveboard with the same name at the top of all the lists. Its not logical but highly possible and when the TSP goes live even doable. I did actually mean to put also in my previous post that once a player got to 50m the skill packages would cease to deliver any return. @Rat scout : Your intellectual input is about 5 higher on the IQ scale than general lootit at least Tyberius uses his brain before typing and offers a proper discussion. So instead of viewing SP for it's functional utility we're now looking at it as a contest and further, a contest which is entirely predetermined in it's results since there's no way to change the order of who got here first? That's a hard to swallow justification. Ive had a few discussions over different aspects but however hard it is to swallow over the money vs time invested quote it becomes reality with the TSP in its current incarnation. However illogical it maybe and in a different league to me you don't know who is behind any pilot and what there finances allow them to do. If i was in any of those lists and became superseded by cash injected pilot the game would be over. Time is invested either way, that some people may soon be able to trade theirs doesn't make it any less the investment of time. And the investment of cash can still only buy SP in the form of a sub directly. Otherwise it can only be used to buy someones actually invested in game time (vs just buying the sub and not investing time in gameplay). So we have some conveniently ignored facts: 1) Cash for SP is the mechanic in play now via subs 2) All this does is allow that SP to be shuffled 3) Access purchased is not time invested 4) PLEX already relocates actual time investment Combine these and we see that whatever metric you're using to measure Hilmar's words is either flawed or was wrong well before he ever stated it. Im not disagreeing with anything you stated above, What im trying to get you to see is however bizarre it may seem if the TSP goes live is that 13 years of training can be superseded by someone with enough financial clout to buy his way straight to the top of the ranking lists. I understand that any TSP injected has been trained in real time by someone but even the bazaar wont allow you near the top ranked people, you cannot take 3 x 100m skill point characters and combine into a 300 mill pilot . The TSP will if you have the money to throw at it.
And so you are suggesting to scrap the TSP feature because of a top 10 list? I can't possibly imagine CCP looking at this as an issue, unless they really don't want to have a little more income. What income you ask?
Here let's run some numbers:
Bazaar purchase of 20m SP pilot -> 2 plex to CCP -> 36$ +/-
TSP packets used to inject 20m SP -> range of 5-8 PLEX (sorry, marginal error not optimal) ->140-160$, depends on deals used to purchase
Do you really think CCP will scrap TSP based on your feedback regarding top boards on a third party site?
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
217
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 23:58:32 -
[6156] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Regarding the majority, that's tricky because as we've seen here those "loyal" customers are prone to kneejerk threats that try to hold the developers hostage. At some point the development by committee will fail and those same players will have no one but themselves to blame despite still pointing at the developers.
a) So you are denying official data and my question regarding the scenario you are suggesting. If average wallet does not mean anything to be taken in consideration, how come in the last 3 years there were no booms of earnings when new things were implemented? If your imagined scenario was true, we would see significant growth of peoples income whenever some new interesting stuff is added. Yet we lack those.. Care to explain or admit your scenario is not vaild, ie you are wrong? b) You can keep identity now, that is why one character is main, others are alts regardless of sp. So what exactly is going to be changed there? Plus you are not forced to purchase alt, it is your choice. Therefore you already have the same "benefit" now, some use it, some dont You are wrong again. e) Please do not digress, either answer my question or admit you are wrong. Your own words are that guides for earning isk are available for everyone, so new players as well. Therefore if provided starting capital they could use guides and make much more isk which will benefit both them and growth. Why no one trusts new players with hundreds of millions and why would that be different in the future? g) Out of game demand is another way of your digression. In my explanation I have called it supply, quite easy to understand. Naming it out of game demand does not change a single fact I have mentioned. Therefore demand for plex ingame increases it price. Supply follows demand to certain point, ie stretches a bit, after that supply cannot fulfill demand and therefore prices go up even more. At the moment there is still enough supply as you can buy plexes anytime you wish, what will happen when demand increases? h) Regardless of me being surprised or not, another shallow attempt at digressing. Can you please answer my question or admit you are wrong? If we look at the cheapest option it will be very expensive for average player - simple yes is enough. No demands explanation, not digression m) Key demand is for subscriptions but regardless of that does implementing one more demand increases or lowers total demand? If total demand is increased will it increase prices? Do you think rise in plex prices will hit those who subscribe that way as well? n) As mentioned, if there was no side effects there would not be a problem and we would not have this thread with 300 pages. If there is a potential side effect to lose more than to gain you would choose to go for it? Ie you are putting a gain for small base while changing game fundamentals for whole player base. Even more you are making your own customers to question relation customer - service provider due to your sudden inconsistency. What message are you sending to your remaining and potentially new customers?
CCP does not take its loyal customers in consideration for a while. Loyal customers pointed fozzy sov issues etc. And it kind of looks like they were totally right. Loyal customers have helped this game reach its heights. Loyal customers are here all the time, developers are changing since their idea after idea fails. It would actually be great if CCP listened to the loyal customers instead of doing what they do. Ask top10 sp guys on EB what they got for their years of loyalty? Ability that someone overtakes them by simply investing cash. So your point is void and aimed just as attack on me, implying i am kneejerker (or one of them).
Good night now, please either start admitting you are wrong or provide reasonable explanations for not being wrong. No point in digressing anymore. Thanks in advance.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1832
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 00:30:04 -
[6157] - Quote
a) What data have you provided suggesting people are at the peak of their earning potential? You provided data, which I haven't denied, about current wallet values, but that doesn't address my claim, which is that people can learn to make more isk. Further you suggest a 75% increase constitutes no "booms in earning" despite no strong compulsions for people to hoard more isk. That seems contrary to your own evidence. b) No one said you couldn't, though the scanario provided pretty much answered you scenario before yo asked it: You wanted to advance your main. And there are plenty of reasons to do so, such as wanting your mains actions and abilities to speak for that character. Additionally no one said you were forced to do anything, that's all coming from you adding conditions that were never part of the claim to deny to make it look like you're refuting something. e) Read the whole thing next time. Particilarly "Further, giving raw isk doesn't actually meet the idea of "mitigating traditional risks" and further makes assumptions of this new player and their understanding of markets in general and Eve's markets in particular." but further than that you've moved so far off the original mark with this question the answer aren't even relevant to the original listed benefit as they can neither add to or detract from them g) So basically because you use a different term it's "digression?" We'll leave that aside as it literally has no meaning to the topic. To answer you question, why would anything different happen than has happened over the history of the game, or do you not believe a significant increase in PLEX demand has happened compared with what you believe this would cause? h) No, the last time you provided an actual answer on your part you used earning and PLEX as having the same rate of increase by saying "they all go up" without justification. Yeah, they'll all move, but you never justified the expectation that it's all at the same rate, hence the retort you're viewing to many things as statics. It still stands. m) Obviously it increases demand, no ones arguing it doesn't What's being argued is that at the same time it increases supply. That's why I speculated the way I did. n) Feel free to present these side effects. To the question, this is where we see things fundamentally differently. There is no change for the larger player base. The functions they've had before the will still have without exception. So that minority gains and the rest choosing to feel like they lost but not actually losing demonstrably isn't the best of points to base from.
Regarding CCP, if you feel that way maybe it's time for a new game.
Regarding your request to me, you're sorely mistaken if you think any mandate in your post has the power to dictate how I post. I've demonstrated how you are wrong, that you have some reason to do anything but admit it isn't something I need to change for. You can put that whole notion right back where you got it.
Thanks in advance for not pulling that again. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
217
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 00:31:38 -
[6158] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:As stated before, if you want me to respond top something, present it. And no, I haven't been agreeing with a lot of what you state. Maybe it's the way in which you are stating it, but every time I start a section of a post with the word "No" it should be a direct indication that I believe your position to be incorrect.
Ok, quick before I go to bed. I do not want to go even wider in discussion with you since it will just mean a lot of empty phrases and digression. Please focus on replying on the list with real explanations why you are not wrong (i do not count digressions as explanations)
Tyberius Franklin wrote:It's a non-factor. It doesn't actually detract from anything I've said but does cloud your counterpoints due to being more about what you think of me than the topic, so it may be in your interest to reconsider what's coming across.
Exactly, what I think of you is non-factor. My counterpoints are there regardless of my opinion on you. And that is why I would like that you either admit where you are wrong or provide reasonable explanation as a counter argument.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Considering a list of benefits exists, that minority some of the parts focus on are the focus of the change and only a small portion of the list was directed at them specifically yes, I've done as you requested. Shall I repost it for you?
A list exists, where almost every single line is challenged by my counter arguments. When we come to some agreement and mutual understanding on them we can call it "benefit list". For now it is just a "battlefield" where you are trying to hide in the field trying to gain at least stalemate position :)
[quote]I do not keep marginalizing it, I am providing you arguments what and why is wrong there. For some points I have agreed, would I do it if I had agenda of dissing you or "winning a forum war"?
Tyberius Franklin wrote: ]Yes you so. "If it's not for the majority it doesn't count" is a familiar theme. "If it's a small subset it's not a benefit" is an argument you just made in this same post. That's marginalization.
1) The only reason you see it as twisting is because you're inserting that unhealthy bias. I've been very consistent. 2) Yet one of your counter point is consistently "you cannot make any argument why it is beneficial to eve player base instead of minority" when the change it designed to benefit that minority specifically. And as has been stated prior, for everyone it still allows for greater control over skills via the ability to remove them than anything current with the complete lack of alternatives, which is something I've brought up in the past as well, and am willing to restate. 3) So funny thing here, some guy who's doing the exact same things as me (point by point prolonged counterargument) in an online forum says that because I argue means my position can't be trusted, but he gets to do the same without question. How does that work while maintaining intellectual honesty?
No, if you actually wanted to quote me properly it would be "benefit for minority but too much side effects to go for it". Instead you have your own pattern where you just want to "win" so you will twist it as suitable.
1. Very consistent in not admitting when you are wrong, very consistent in digression as well. Agreed. I am not inserting anything, your posting for previous 300 pages is publicly visible. 2. Yea, let`s pretend side effects do not exist and that we have 300 pages of people praising this change. If CCP wanted alternatives they would communicate with us. And there were alternatives suggested. Not by me though as I do not appreciate one way communication with CCP. If they want me to do their job for free, I will do it because I love the game, but that demands two way communication 3. You have a wrong impression that your digressions are taken as counter arguments. So far, I have simplified counter arguments a lot, really looking forward how will you twist them. I improve my English by translating your empty phrases :) The problem with your posting is that when you are presented argument "this wall is white, yes or no?" you will start speaking about the guy who painted it. While my points are based on official data, statistics, economy, market laws, you still try to twist them out and call them speculations in order to make them look null. And that is not honest approach to discussion so I really do not think you have any right to preach about any kind of intellectual honesty.
But please, let`s not waste time on these subjects, we have a list to come up with some conclusions and this is totally irrelevant to it or to topic. My opinion of you or vice versa, whether positive or negative will not change anything, in this topic, forum, game, universe. After that I suggest we stop wasting each others time as due to our different motivation we will never be able to come to mutual understanding.
Good night for real now :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 00:40:21 -
[6159] - Quote
Time to funny statstic: Don wrote 14 "wrong" on last page.
Last post
Don ZOLA wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Regarding the majority, that's tricky because as we've seen here those "loyal" customers are prone to kneejerk threats that try to hold the developers hostage. At some point the development by committee will fail and those same players will have no one but themselves to blame despite still pointing at the developers.
a) So you are denying official data and my question regarding the scenario you are suggesting. If average wallet does not mean anything to be taken in consideration, how come in the last 3 years there were no booms of earnings when new things were implemented? If your imagined scenario was true, we would see significant growth of peoples income whenever some new interesting stuff is added. Yet we lack those.. Care to explain or admit your scenario is not vaild, ie you are wrong? b) You can keep identity now, that is why one character is main, others are alts regardless of sp. So what exactly is going to be changed there? Plus you are not forced to purchase alt, it is your choice. Therefore you already have the same "benefit" now, some use it, some dont You are wrong again. e) Please do not digress, either answer my question or admit you are wrong. Your own words are that guides for earning isk are available for everyone, so new players as well. Therefore if provided starting capital they could use guides and make much more isk which will benefit both them and growth. Why no one trusts new players with hundreds of millions and why would that be different in the future? g) Out of game demand is another way of your digression. In my explanation I have called it supply, quite easy to understand. Naming it out of game demand does not change a single fact I have mentioned. Therefore demand for plex ingame increases it price. Supply follows demand to certain point, ie stretches a bit, after that supply cannot fulfill demand and therefore prices go up even more. At the moment there is still enough supply as you can buy plexes anytime you wish, what will happen when demand increases? h) Regardless of me being surprised or not, another shallow attempt at digressing. Can you please answer my question or admit you are wrong? If we look at the cheapest option it will be very expensive for average player - simple yes is enough. No demands explanation, not digression m) Key demand is for subscriptions but regardless of that does implementing one more demand increases or lowers total demand? If total demand is increased will it increase prices? Do you think rise in plex prices will hit those who subscribe that way as well? n) As mentioned, if there was no side effects there would not be a problem and we would not have this thread with 300 pages. If there is a potential side effect to lose more than to gain you would choose to go for it? Ie you are putting a gain for small base while changing game fundamentals for whole player base. Even more you are making your own customers to question relation customer - service provider due to your sudden inconsistency. What message are you sending to your remaining and potentially new customers? CCP does not take its loyal customers in consideration for a while. Loyal customers pointed fozzy sov issues etc. And it kind of looks like they were totally right. Loyal customers have helped this game reach its heights. Loyal customers are here all the time, developers are changing since their idea after idea fails. It would actually be great if CCP listened to the loyal customers instead of doing what they do. Ask top10 sp guys on EB what they got for their years of loyalty? Ability that someone overtakes them by simply investing cash. So your point is void and aimed just as attack on me, implying i am kneejerker (or one of them). Good night now, please either start admitting you are wrong or provide reasonable explanations for not being wrong. No point in digressing anymore. Thanks in advance. Seems it's "his own crusade" for "winning a forum war" and goal is to force Tyberius Franklin to admit that he was wrong.
Don, we will find out who was wrong after TSP become released. Just cool down.
Main source of concerns and side effects
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1834
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 01:06:21 -
[6160] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:]Ok, quick before I go to bed. I do not want to go even wider in discussion with you since it will just mean a lot of empty phrases and digression. Please focus on replying on the list with real explanations why you are not wrong (i do not count digressions as explanations) They've been consistently provided despite your continued misuse of information and deflecting. But we get back to the same thing, if it's not something you agree with it doesn't count.
Quote:Exactly, what I think of you is non-factor. My counterpoints are there regardless of my opinion on you. And that is why I would like that you either admit where you are wrong or provide reasonable explanation as a counter argument. Have done so multiple times. Rather what i'll give you yourself credit in doing is pushing this whole thing so far from the original list that the points bear little resemblance to their original stated benefits due to you picking
Quote:A list exists, where almost every single line is challenged by my counter arguments. When we come to some agreement and mutual understanding on them we can call it "benefit list". For now it is just a "battlefield" where you are trying to hide in the field trying to gain at least stalemate position :) Challenged by is not defeated. And really the only one you could be said as having defeated is the one noted as extremely speculative from the beginning. Beyond that you've tried half stringing together pieces of data to try to suit goals they never intended, IE: Using 2012 wallet values to invalidate the variable nature of isk earning, using 2015 wallet values to do the same despite noting the difference in the 2, and knowing that there was a difference, still trying to use the numbers as static comparisons for the if/when this goes live.
Then there's dismissing a point based on personal feelings.
Then there's the one that doesn't actually detract from the original point regardless of how your "objection" is answered.
Then there's the one where I used a different term and you took it like some moral victory
Then the one where you do the same things toy did in the first one
The one I admitted from the very beginning was very speculative
And the one that in itself is fine but "undefined abuse"
That's the list right now. That's not defeating them. That's deflecting to specific use cases under current mechanics with a hefty dose of pretending no economic adaptation can or will occur, and on top of which only becomes relevant in a situation where the feature is a must use, which it isn't.
Quote:No, if you actually wanted to quote me properly it would be "benefit for minority but too much side effects to go for it". Instead you have your own pattern where you just want to "win" so you will twist it as suitable.
1. Very consistent in not admitting when you are wrong, very consistent in digression as well. Agreed. I am not inserting anything, your posting for previous 300 pages is publicly visible. 2. Yea, let`s pretend side effects do not exist and that we have 300 pages of people praising this change. If CCP wanted alternatives they would communicate with us. And there were alternatives suggested. Not by me though as I do not appreciate one way communication with CCP. If they want me to do their job for free, I will do it because I love the game, but that demands two way communication 3. You have a wrong impression that your digressions are taken as counter arguments. So far, I have simplified counter arguments a lot, really looking forward how will you twist them. I improve my English by translating your empty phrases :) The problem with your posting is that when you are presented argument "this wall is white, yes or no?" you will start speaking about the guy who painted it. While my points are based on official data, statistics, economy, market laws, you still try to twist them out and call them speculations in order to make them look null. And that is not honest approach to discussion so I really do not think you have any right to preach about any kind of intellectual honesty.
But please, let`s not waste time on these subjects, we have a list to come up with some conclusions and this is totally irrelevant to it or to topic. My opinion of you or vice versa, whether positive or negative will not change anything, in this topic, forum, game, universe. After that I suggest we stop wasting each others time as due to our different motivation we will never be able to come to mutual understanding.
Good night for real now :) And you've yet to present those supposed side effects.
1) We're back to the attacking the poster instead of the arguments I see, but above is where we stand on that 2) We don't have 300 pages of side effects. As we both know I've been in the thread for a while and it's largely emotional kneejerk early on. Not to say their aren't any con arguments worthy of note, but you aren't doing then justice. You aren't doing them at all. Of everyone I've spoken to on the con side you're the only one to post, "just go look at the thread." 3) I included a brief list above regarding some of your flimsy reasoning, marginalization, deflections, an attempt to dismiss a point based upon word use, misuse of data and poorly defined supporting problems. But do feel free to keep claiming that's not what you are doing. |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6868
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 04:13:38 -
[6161] - Quote
Quote: if the TSP goes live is that 13 years of training can be superseded by someone with enough financial clout to buy his way straight to the top of the ranking lists. I understand that any TSP injected has been trained in real time by someone but even the bazaar wont allow you near the top ranked people, you cannot take 3 x 100m skill point characters and combine into a 300 mill pilot . The TSP will if you have the money to throw at it. Wow ranking lists.
Good thing alliances depend on K:D ratio and isk efficiency huh.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6868
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 04:18:47 -
[6162] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:2) We don't have 300 pages of side effects. As we both know I've been in the thread for a while and it's largely emotional kneejerk early on. Not to say their aren't any con arguments worthy of note, but you aren't doing then justice. You aren't doing them at all. Of everyone I've spoken to on the con side you're the only one to post, "just go look at the thread."doing. No it's kneejerk at the start, middle, and even just the last page.
And probably a few posts below this.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
20
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 08:12:06 -
[6163] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Like i said initially though, however illogical it may seem it becomes a reality with a TSP. The investment of money in EVE will give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. And as I stated before that, It's a non issue since it's not really a competition. It a list of "people who got here first". Ask all those on the lists if they find it a non issue, its becoming quite obvious however improbable that something that can happen with the launch of the TSP you still will not acknowledge it . If your divergent with the truth on such a simple question then where does that leave you with the walls of text going back and forth with Don.
Alavaria Fera : This has been purely for fun albeit totally truthful and can happen, anyone from goons carries little weight with regards the TSP as we've already seen there intentions on it. One of the so called misuse's.
Rat Scout : You answered with Lies, Every single thing typed was the truth / fact even tyberius stated that he believes the 5 to 50 bracket is to high a threshold for 400k. If you offer nothing constructive people will view your bluster the same as the resident trolls. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6868
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 08:41:23 -
[6164] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Alavaria Fera : This has been purely for fun albeit totally truthful and can happen, anyone from goons carries little weight with regards the TSP as we've already seen there intentions on it. One of the so called misuse's. If you mean feeding them to newbies below 5mil SP (which CCP has kindly set to receive the maximum benefit) I should clarify that's only my own personal intention.
The cost is likely to mean TSPs will not be that helpful on a scale as large as "the whole coalition's newbie base". But worry not, I'll spend what I can on the newbies I meet on fleets.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 12:58:26 -
[6165] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Alavaria Fera : This has been purely for fun albeit totally truthful and can happen, anyone from goons carries little weight with regards the TSP as we've already seen there intentions on it. One of the so called misuse's. If you mean feeding them to newbies below 5mil SP (which CCP has kindly demonstrated an intention for them to receive the maximum benefit**) I should clarify that's only my own personal intention. The cost is likely to mean TSPs will not be that helpful on a scale as large as "the whole coalition's newbie base". But worry not, I'll spend what I can on the newbies I meet on fleets. **Of course that means the newbies are benefitting from my investment of time into eve. Which is nice for them, since I'll be paying to lose (SP) and won't be making any "SP rankings" anytime soon, eh. OOOH, maybe you meant we would share delightful quotes about people on the SP lists bitching about it? Ehh well not likely to garner attention unlike the hilarious kickstarter story, you know?
Player controlled TSP
The price 300m to upwards of 500m per packet . Ransom . Not new guy friendly . Reskill mechanic sub 50m. RMT . plex fluctuation. SP farm's. Character history irrelevant. Extractor - Nexx store item. Instant perfect alt's.
CCP sell direct to Pilot - Non trade-able item
Its just a micro transaction - available to anyone who wants to flex there wallet.
The depreciation scale still applies to both categories above. im sure ive missed a few things but certainly as always something controlled by the masses as important as this item could be has far more drawbacks than just being sold by CCP. |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 13:14:50 -
[6166] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Alavaria Fera : This has been purely for fun albeit totally truthful and can happen, anyone from goons carries little weight with regards the TSP as we've already seen there intentions on it. One of the so called misuse's. If you mean feeding them to newbies below 5mil SP (which CCP has kindly demonstrated an intention for them to receive the maximum benefit**) I should clarify that's only my own personal intention. The cost is likely to mean TSPs will not be that helpful on a scale as large as "the whole coalition's newbie base". But worry not, I'll spend what I can on the newbies I meet on fleets. **Of course that means the newbies are benefitting from my investment of time into eve. Which is nice for them, since I'll be paying to lose (SP) and won't be making any "SP rankings" anytime soon, eh. OOOH, maybe you meant we would share delightful quotes about people on the SP lists bitching about it? Ehh well not likely to garner attention unlike the hilarious kickstarter story, you know? Player controlled TSPCCP sell direct to Pilot - Non trade-able itemIts just a micro transaction - available to anyone who wants to flex there wallet. The depreciation scale still applies to both categories above. im sure ive missed a few things but certainly as always something controlled by the masses as important as this item could be has far more drawbacks than just being sold by CCP.
Here is my previous comment you ignore and quote me calling you a liar (a fact):
Rat Scout wrote:
"And so you are suggesting to scrap the TSP feature because of a top 10 list? I can't possibly imagine CCP looking at this as an issue, unless they really don't want to have a little more income. What income you ask?
Here let's run some numbers:
Bazaar purchase of 20m SP pilot -> 2 plex to CCP -> 36$ +/-
TSP packets used to inject 20m SP -> range of 5-8 PLEX (sorry, marginal error not optimal) ->140-160$, depends on deals used to purchase
Do you really think CCP will scrap TSP based on your feedback regarding top boards on a third party site?"
And now lets move on to your bullet points:
Berrice Silf wrote:Player controlled TSPThe price 300m to upwards of 500m per packet . Ransom . Not new guy friendly . Reskill mechanic sub 50m. RMT . plex fluctuation. SP farm's. Character history irrelevant. Extractor - Nexx store item. Instant perfect alt's.
Economics for those who like to play eve with numbers, are you implying this is a negative effect?
What? Piracy is good for EvE
It's not old guy friendly for sure, depends on what friendly means and also if you mean injecting or extracting.
Yes, its is a reskill mechanic at the cost of isk, plex and time with diminishing returns.
RMT for who? The person extracting skill points? he would have to battle the force of plex in every 500m sp, a lot harder then current bazaar sales. Its just a buzzword and if RMT is a problem with TSP it is already a problem with the bazaar.
Economics again, good for the game, higher plax prices are a positive in my opinion (and you can have your opininion, it does not mean it's a negative effect for eve)
same as character farms on the bazaar
how is history irrelevant? If I inject skill points on my main the history stays with me, my history, the only one that is relevant.
and your point is that the nexx store is evil?
instant bazaar purchase? so what? nothing new |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 13:22:42 -
[6167] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Alavaria Fera : This has been purely for fun albeit totally truthful and can happen, anyone from goons carries little weight with regards the TSP as we've already seen there intentions on it. One of the so called misuse's. If you mean feeding them to newbies below 5mil SP (which CCP has kindly demonstrated an intention for them to receive the maximum benefit**) I should clarify that's only my own personal intention. The cost is likely to mean TSPs will not be that helpful on a scale as large as "the whole coalition's newbie base". But worry not, I'll spend what I can on the newbies I meet on fleets. **Of course that means the newbies are benefitting from my investment of time into eve. Which is nice for them, since I'll be paying to lose (SP) and won't be making any "SP rankings" anytime soon, eh. OOOH, maybe you meant we would share delightful quotes about people on the SP lists bitching about it? Ehh well not likely to garner attention unlike the hilarious kickstarter story, you know? Player controlled TSPCCP sell direct to Pilot - Non trade-able itemIts just a micro transaction - available to anyone who wants to flex there wallet. The depreciation scale still applies to both categories above. im sure ive missed a few things but certainly as always something controlled by the masses as important as this item could be has far more drawbacks than just being sold by CCP. Here is my previous comment you ignore and quote me calling you a liar (a fact): Rat Scout wrote: "And so you are suggesting to scrap the TSP feature because of a top 10 list? I can't possibly imagine CCP looking at this as an issue, unless they really don't want to have a little more income. What income you ask? Here let's run some numbers: Bazaar purchase of 20m SP pilot -> 2 plex to CCP -> 36$ +/- TSP packets used to inject 20m SP -> range of 5-8 PLEX (sorry, marginal error not optimal) ->140-160$, depends on deals used to purchase Do you really think CCP will scrap TSP based on your feedback regarding top boards on a third party site?" And now lets move on to your bullet points: Berrice Silf wrote:Player controlled TSPThe price 300m to upwards of 500m per packet . Ransom . Not new guy friendly . Reskill mechanic sub 50m. RMT . plex fluctuation. SP farm's. Character history irrelevant. Extractor - Nexx store item. Instant perfect alt's. Economics for those who like to play eve with numbers, are you implying this is a negative effect? What? Piracy is good for EvE It's not old guy friendly for sure, depends on what friendly means and also if you mean injecting or extracting. Yes, its is a reskill mechanic at the cost of isk, plex and time with diminishing returns. RMT for who? The person extracting skill points? he would have to battle the force of plex in every 500m sp, a lot harder then current bazaar sales. Its just a buzzword and if RMT is a problem with TSP it is already a problem with the bazaar. Economics again, good for the game, higher plax prices are a positive in my opinion (and you can have your opininion, it does not mean it's a negative effect for eve) same as character farms on the bazaar how is history irrelevant? If I inject skill points on my main the history stays with me, my history, the only one that is relevant. and your point is that the nexx store is evil? instant bazaar purchase? so what? nothing new As previously stated before, your just a clown if your clueless on what the ramifications the RMT presents. Seeing as theyre already battling the sales of Isk - Plex - Ships - Faction / dead space modules from being sold by 3rd parties this is yet another thing that can be added to the list. The rest you reply to are just as comical. |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 13:43:44 -
[6168] - Quote
My face is comical, yet it's still a fact. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 14:25:45 -
[6169] - Quote
Player controlled TSP
The price 300m to upwards of 500m per packet . Ransom . Not new guy friendly . Reskill mechanic sub 50m. RMT . plex fluctuation. SP farm's. Character history irrelevant. Extractor - Nexx store item. Instant perfect alt's. [/quote]
Economics for those who like to play eve with numbers, are you implying this is a negative effect? Who are they aimed at - New players ? So they still have to stick there hands in their pockets
What? Piracy is good for EvE Ransom doesn't just include piracy - i'll let you think on this regarding a goons letter
It's not old guy friendly for sure, depends on what friendly means and also if you mean injecting or extracting. So your forced into a corp or back to the top who are they meant to benefit
Yes, its is a reskill mechanic at the cost of isk, plex and time with diminishing returns. Minimal loss to sub 50 mill thats nothing.
RMT for who? The person extracting skill points? he would have to battle the force of plex in every 500m sp, a lot harder then current bazaar sales. Its just a buzzword and if RMT is a problem with TSP it is already a problem with the bazaar. As i pointed out before some buzzword that your clueless over
Economics again, good for the game, higher plax prices are a positive in my opinion (and you can have your opininion, it does not mean it's a negative effect for eve) Maybe for you but think about all those alts in game that will disappear with inflated plex prices
same as character farms on the bazaar Your ignorance is staggering, 1 main 2 alts on one account all generating skill points for the main is nothing like the bazaar
how is history irrelevant? If I inject skill points on my main the history stays with me, my history, the only one that is relevant. not the the thief, awoxer just drain them and create a new - history gone
and your point is that the nexx store is evil? They say ignorance is bliss ...... a micro transaction
instant bazaar purchase? so what? nothing new[/quote] The bazaar you get what suites you best unless you wait until the best option presents itself, why wait when i can create the perfect alt / main for my needs with a TSP - a lot of difference plus no history to deal with and certainly no consequences with an instant perfect build.
Are you another like general lootit who's been playing for a few months and just see's instant advancement and bugger anything beyond that. |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 15:16:36 -
[6170] - Quote
yes you see since TSP is a more resource intensive way of achieving the same thing as the bazaar does it is a much better way to combat RMT. To sell 20m sp you need somewhere around 5-8 plex, trying to balance that with cash against isk is pointless, price would be way too high in RMT, a person could just buy plex from CCP and use that in the bazaar or market for TSP.
Berrice Silf wrote:how is history irrelevant? If I inject skill points on my main the history stays with me, my history, the only one that is relevant. not the the thief, awoxer just drain them and create a new - history gone create new character as in buy one form the bazaar? or TSP? who cares, its the same thing.
Berrice Silf wrote:and your point is that the nexx store is evil? They say ignorance is bliss ...... a micro transaction irrelevant to the issues caused by TSP
Berrice Silf wrote:instant bazaar purchase? so what? nothing new The bazaar you get what suites you best unless you wait until the best option presents itself, why wait when i can create the perfect alt / main for my needs with a TSP - a lot of difference plus no history to deal with and certainly no consequences with an instant perfect build.
[/quote] So creating a perfect alt with no history just for the sake of creating it, then deleting it so that it has no history and create a new one? LOL ok go ahead, that makes sense. Or extract SP again to sell for a staggering amount of isk and use dozens of plex, yeah that sounds reasonable.
Berrice Silf wrote:
Are you another like general lootit who's been playing for a few months and just see's instant advancement and bugger anything beyond that.
I see a great new way for CCP to get more income on SP/transaction, you still didn't respond to my post about your real agenda to go against TSP's wich is a top 10 list for people with the most SP in the game.
Clearly I purchased an alt from the bazaar just to post on the forums, is that relevant to TSP's in any way shape or form? |
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
26
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 16:47:03 -
[6171] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:yes you see since TSP is a more resource intensive way of achieving the same thing as the bazaar does it is a much better way to combat RMT. To sell 20m sp you need somewhere around 5-8 plex, trying to balance that with cash against isk is pointless, price would be way too high in RMT, a person could just buy plex from CCP and use that in the bazaar or market for TSP. I still don't think you understand RMT, If they can sell something and make money they will. if someone has 10 / 20 / 100 characters churning out 1 packet a week per toon and theres a market for it they will sell it. So its adding yet another item that has to be monitored for out of game purchasing.
Rat Scout wrote:how is history irrelevant? If I inject skill points on my main the history stays with me, my history, the only one that is relevant. create new character as in buy one form the bazaar? or TSP? who cares, its the same thing. Any character purchased from the bazaar is listed and you can check its history / skill points, It can be traced. One created from TSP's is for a better word an anomaly without substance, Its age will bear no resemblance to its abilities.
Rat Scout wrote:and your point is that the nexx store is evil? irrelevant to the issues caused by TSP. The Extractor is from the Nexx store, Its not spawned in game, there are no BPO's for it. a micro transaction itself.
Rat Scout wrote:So creating a perfect alt with no history just for the sake of creating it, then deleting it so that it has no history and create a new one? LOL ok go ahead, that makes sense. Or extract SP again to sell for a staggering amount of isk and use dozens of plex, yeah that sounds reasonable. I typed Instant perfect alt - You countered with instant bazaar purchase? so what? nothing new, I preceded to explain the differences between the two and you came back with that rambling load of nonsense above to which i have no clue how to even answer it.
Rat Scout wrote: You still didn't respond to my post about your real agenda to go against TSP's wich is a top 10 list for people with the most SP in the game. If you had bothered to read everything that was typed you would have seen,Alavaria Fera : This has been purely for fun albeit totally truthful and can happen. I was making a point that 13 years of skill training by those people can be overtaken by a TSP injected pilot. Im not in any of those lists not even close, although i have played since 2005. If money is no object to someone, and there's no hard cap on TSP, 13 years of training becomes nothing. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
217
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 16:50:17 -
[6172] - Quote
a) So in previous years we had no reasons for people to hit the peak of their earning potential? People did not want new ships, items etc? And now suddenly, players will unite in search for isk? If what yuo are saying had any stand in reality graph would shows peaks before every new expansion. They can, yet it does not happen. Why? Because you are wrong but you will never admit it. 75% Growth over 3 years shows that people are earning more isk (or have less expenses) on a very steady rate, ie they have ~10 mil isk "net profit" each month. 10 millions isk is what remains in average players wallet after one month of income and purchases. As it is quite steady line we can really see it functions like that in average. Peaks can be on some personal basis, but same can drops, in average it is ~10mil isk. People can learn to earn more isk, people can earn more isk yet they do not in the way you suggest. And if we have a cost of TSP which is at least 1 third of that, it is quite a hit for a average wallet. Clear enough to admit you are wrong yet? b) Your original point is that was a benefit which we get with implementation of TSP. Which is incorrent and I have proven it. Now you are going around it, gathering courage to admit you are wrong (would it be the first time in your life? :D) e) Only not relevant stuff here are your "explanations and digressions". You can easily answer my question with yes or no - Will corps trust brand new players with item worth hundreds of millions isk? g) Why do you even need to introduce new term when everything was explained. And you are not answering my question, you just asked another. We can clearly see what happened with PLEX demand rising, Plex is currently over 4 times more expensive than it was in the start. With additional demand prices are going to keep going up. Therefore prices of TSP will go up as well. And more and more people will struggle to plex their accounts meaning more people will quit game. And demand and supply of TSP will drop so there will not be plentiful. But Plex prices wont drop after it. h) So 300 mil ISK item which provides you with what you get by ~1 week of training will cost a third of average players wallet and you say it is not expensive? Thanks for stating something like that in public, gives a lot of credibility to your posting :) m) I have already explained you the difference in demand and supply growth. Which part is still unclear so you have to avoid answering my question again? Will the plex prices increase? Simple yes or no is enough. n) Side effects are presented. Plenty of posts in this thread about them (not just by me) non answered, your ignorance does not mean they are not there. To the question, there is fundamental change, yet you choose to not look at it as it perfectly suits your personal agenda. The functions we had we will still have (ie nothing really sorted) but now we will have new ones which will have a minor benefit for minor group while "the rest choose to feel like they lost" even though YOU think they are not losing (which is obviously wrong as so many people who raised their voice here stated). And guess what, those people are customers of CCP and 1 unhappy customer can make more negative impact than at least 10 happy customers can do in positive direction. Considering this game and community was built mainly by players (thanks ccp for sandbox but players and content they created made eve famous, not ccp marketing). So it is worth thinking not just twice, but multiple times before doing something like that.
Since we live in consumerism, and we are paying customers of CCP services, CCP should know more about it before doing things "just like that". Here are some of the official researches:
For every customer complaint there are 26 other unhappy customers who have remained silent. 96% of unhappy customers donGÇÖt complain, however 91% of those will simply leave and never come back A dissatisfied customer will tell between 9-15 people about their experience. Around 13% of dissatisfied customers tell more than 20 people. - while - Happy customers who get their issue resolved tell about 4-6 people about their experience. 70% of buying experiences are based on how the customer feels they are being treated It takes 12 positive experiences to make up for one unresolved negative experience It costs 6GÇô7 times more to acquire a new customer than retain an existing one
So just based on that you can estimate how many more unhappy customers is out there. No matter you think they do not really lose anything. How will that affect ccp and the game we will see but saying there are no side effects is not just ignorant, its plain stupid.
Example:
As a loyal paying customer of Eve-online for over a decade, for multiple accounts, I am shocked by CCP inconsistency and changing one of the game fundamentals. I am afraid to commit further more to the game as I feel I cannot trust them in the long run, as I cannot be sure some other fundamentals will not be changed, so I have decided to stop paying for their services I will rather go to some other service provider on which I can lean on and be certain that the frame of the sandbox will not change. Considering they have "played" me and my expectations and plans for the game, I will surely express my dissatisfaction to every possible customer they might have, to warn them in time to not waste time on the game which demands long term commitment but you cannot lean on it. As someone who has spend thousands of dollars on it I feel I was not treated as valuable customer and I strongly suggest that everyone avoids it.
That is just a simple version with my Engrish. People will write it with more impact. Thanks to internet it can easily spread. No side effects? Get lost..
Regarding the posting, you failed at explaining anything, let alone proving me wrong. Above is updated list, I am looking forward your "answers".
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
217
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 16:55:09 -
[6173] - Quote
Not to mention how many "connected" quitting will be. This is social game, when I express my dissatisfaction and I quit, my best friend will quit too and also spread the message, then one more common friend, then his best friend etc. People will pull their friends toward other games. It is like chain reaction. And retention rate is one of the key things CCP is trying to do. With pissing the customers off, that will suffer a lot.
In the end all those side effects can easily lead to mass drop in subscriptions, activity, content, newcomers etc. All for minor benefit for minor group of players? Not worth the risk presented as it is now. And I do not want to see that. I want eve to last till I am alive and to be paying customer. It is up to them if they live to my (and others) expectations though.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
217
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 17:34:44 -
[6174] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:]Ok, quick before I go to bed. I do not want to go even wider in discussion with you since it will just mean a lot of empty phrases and digression. Please focus on replying on the list with real explanations why you are not wrong (i do not count digressions as explanations) They've been consistently provided despite your continued misuse of information and deflecting. But we get back to the same thing, if it's not something you agree with it doesn't count.
I totally agree, you have constantly provided empty phrases and digressions. That is the reason why I started simple questions which you can answer with yes or no. Still you avoid that as well :/
Tyberius FranklinHave done so multiple times. Rather what i'll give you yourself credit in doing is pushing this whole thing so far from the original list that the points bear little resemblance to their original stated benefits due to you picking[/quote wrote:If you actually compare it to the original one, you will see that my questions are still on track, while your answers are going off. Happens due to your avoiding of questions and digressions. Blame yourself :) Tyberius Franklin wrote: Challenged by is not defeated. Challenged to provide counter arguments and repeatedly fails to do it or avoids or digresses. Quite defeated, but do not worry I am not finished with you yet. That is why the questions are getting simplified, I am limiting your escape space :) Stop spreading lies, I never said it is static, i even stated it is not static, Official statistic I used gives us a much wider picture so we do not need your (wrong) speculations. Your lack of knowledge does not mean you are not wrong. How can you put something "highly speculative" in a benefit list when you even do not have a knowledge of the market? That`s rude :) Only one deflecting here is you, in order to stop it please start answering my questions. This list is not even worth a lol. Let`s stick to the original one, I like where it is going :) [quote=Tyberius Franklin] And you've yet to present those supposed side effects. 1) We're back to the attacking the poster instead of the arguments I see, but above is where we stand on that 2) We don't have 300 pages of side effects. As we both know I've been in the thread for a while and it's largely emotional kneejerk early on. Not to say their aren't any con arguments worthy of note, but you aren't doing then justice. You aren't doing them at all. Of everyone I've spoken to on the con side you're the only one to post, "just go look at the thread." 3) I included a brief list above regarding some of your flimsy reasoning, marginalization, deflections, an attempt to dismiss a point based upon word use, misuse of data and poorly defined supporting problems. But do feel free to keep claiming that's not what you are doing.
I did present them. They are in this thread, publicly available. You chosen to avoid them back when I posted them (you were active on the topic back then) and you avoid to read them now. So feel free to stop with the BS.
Though I am grateful for that, it would be even bigger waste of my time to explain them to you, as you do not seek to understand, you seek just to push your "points" and derail side effects to some of your deflection points. We have enough witnesses for that over these 300 pages :)
But for your convenience I even made one silly sample of side effects kick in. Not the same as my original ones, but I figured out that you really have no idea about market, consumers behaviorism, customer - service provider relations etc, so needed to just give you slight overview. Ie a chance to let you honorably admit defeat due to lack of such perspective and knowledge. Which I, having this experience with you, frankly do not expect. Even if you were the only person against billions you would not admit it. While I value persistence in general, your persistence is vain and pointless.
1) Who cares, as long as you play it dumb, avoid answering questions, go into digressions etc I am certain my opinion is correct 2) Again, focusing on non important things and semantics, we have 300 pages of the topic, majority of posters quite unhappy with the change (see unhappy customers in my previous posts), sending quite clear message to CCP. And while "I am not doing them justice or nothing at all", thankfully I have you as a "proers" white knight in shining armor whose points I am is decimating due to his lack of knowledge and his "high speculations". 3. You have added everything you had, every single line you could use to make that list look worthy. Unfortunately for you, I am here to show you how wrong you are :)
Again, I urge you to focus on the list only. You are already wasting enough of both yours and mine time. While I will never quit until you prove your points in the list or admit being wrong I would still like to save some time. This post is unrelated to the list and each other impressions mean nothing to it or to the topic. Have a nice day!
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 17:54:30 -
[6175] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: CCP does not take its loyal customers in consideration for a while. Loyal customers pointed fozzy sov issues etc. And it kind of looks like they were totally right. Loyal customers have helped this game reach its heights. Loyal customers are here all the time, developers are changing since their idea after idea fails. It would actually be great if CCP listened to the loyal customers instead of doing what they do. Ask top10 sp guys on EB what they got for their years of loyalty? Ability that someone overtakes them by simply investing cash.
Don ZOLA wrote: As a loyal paying customer of Eve-online for over a decade, for multiple accounts, I am shocked by CCP inconsistency and changing one of the game fundamentals. I am afraid to commit further more to the game as I feel I cannot trust them in the long run, as I cannot be sure some other fundamentals will not be changed, so I have decided to stop paying for their services I will rather go to some other service provider on which I can lean on and be certain that the frame of the sandbox will not change. Considering they have "played" me and my expectations and plans for the game, I will surely express my dissatisfaction to every possible customer they might have, to warn them in time to not waste time on the game which demands long term commitment but you cannot lean on it. As someone who has spend thousands of dollars on it I feel I was not treated as valuable customer and I strongly suggest that everyone avoids it.
If loyal customers thinking that their money somehow better - fine. Anyway I can't handle all of these tears anymore. CCPlease add this to diminishing returns for go... "games sake": 80 -100 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 100 million skillpoints = 0 unallocated skillpoints added
They desereved it.
P.S. "This is social game, when I express my dissatisfaction and I quit, my best friend will quit too and also spread the message, then one more common friend, then his best friend etc." best describing of loyalty I ever heard.
Main source of concerns and side effects
Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
|
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
3
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 18:21:42 -
[6176] - Quote
Wow this is a long forum
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote: CCP does not take its loyal customers in consideration for a while. Loyal customers pointed fozzy sov issues etc. And it kind of looks like they were totally right. Loyal customers have helped this game reach its heights. Loyal customers are here all the time, developers are changing since their idea after idea fails. It would actually be great if CCP listened to the loyal customers instead of doing what they do. Ask top10 sp guys on EB what they got for their years of loyalty? Ability that someone overtakes them by simply investing cash.
Don ZOLA wrote: As a loyal paying customer of Eve-online for over a decade, for multiple accounts, I am shocked by CCP inconsistency and changing one of the game fundamentals. I am afraid to commit further more to the game as I feel I cannot trust them in the long run, as I cannot be sure some other fundamentals will not be changed, so I have decided to stop paying for their services I will rather go to some other service provider on which I can lean on and be certain that the frame of the sandbox will not change. Considering they have "played" me and my expectations and plans for the game, I will surely express my dissatisfaction to every possible customer they might have, to warn them in time to not waste time on the game which demands long term commitment but you cannot lean on it. As someone who has spend thousands of dollars on it I feel I was not treated as valuable customer and I strongly suggest that everyone avoids it.
If loyal customers thinking that their money somehow better - fine. Anyway I can't handle all of these tears anymore. CCPlease add this to diminishing returns for go... "games sake": 80 -100 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 100 million skillpoints = 0 unallocated skillpoints added They desereved it. P.S. "This is social game, when I express my dissatisfaction and I quit, my best friend will quit too and also spread the message, then one more common friend, then his best friend etc." best describing of loyalty I ever heard.
You are so right !! its a stupid idea. You forgot to mention the newbies who joined thinking they were getting to play the game at the same level as others but suddenly find out they have to buy SP to keep up.
So to stop newbies quitting cause they thought they only needed to pay 10 a month < 5 Million skill points = 0 unallocated skill points added
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6869
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 18:44:13 -
[6177] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:You are so right !! its a stupid idea. You forgot to mention the newbies who joined thinking they were getting to play the game at the same level as others but suddenly find out they have to buy SP to keep up.
So to stop newbies quitting cause they thought they only needed to pay 10 a month < 5 Million skill points = 0 unallocated skill points added You understand how this thread works.
Quote:> 100 million skillpoints = 0 unallocated skillpoints added Well I guess it woud protect the precious SP ranking list so ..... yeah I guess...
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6869
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 18:48:39 -
[6178] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:P.S. "This is social game, when I express my dissatisfaction and I quit, my best friend will quit too and also spread the message, then one more common friend, then his best friend etc." best describing of loyalty I ever heard. You also have the hang of this thread.
Oh.
It works the other way around as well, ask the blobbers who keep on finding newbies to add to our blob :)
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 18:51:07 -
[6179] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:You are so right !! its a stupid idea. You forgot to mention the newbies who joined thinking they were getting to play the game at the same level as others but suddenly find out they have to buy SP to keep up.
So to stop newbies quitting cause they thought they only needed to pay 10 a month < 5 Million skill points = 0 unallocated skill points added You understand how this thread works. He has good potential.
Main source of concerns and side effects
Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1834
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 20:09:30 -
[6180] - Quote
a) No, in orevious years we didn't have reasons for people to continually peak earning potential. We had reasons for people to meet the earnings goals they set and the ability to set that regardless of what their potential would allow. Further in the last 3 years: We haven't seen any strong upward fundamental price changes, PLEX aside. We haven't had any new impetus to hoard isk (make more than spent and actually increase wallet values deliberately). We haven't developed and reason to consistently peak our earning potential save where that was a specific personal goal. We know people have significant reserves compared to new released assets (even at 500mill) We also know those assets won't be universally sought, some shunning till they reach a stable price, others just uninterested.
There is no reason to see peaks before every expansion because those wallets across all players represent trillions of inactive isk waiting to respond to any new supply. It doesn't need to be ground because it's already there in the players wallets. Now the question is going to be, how far are you willing to ignore that players aren't operating at a zero sum game with isk?
b) No you have not. I gave a concrete demonstration of how it worked: "Now: If a player wants to advance faster than passive training will allow while keeping their identity, they can't. If this goes through: If a player wants to advance faster than passive training will allow while keeping their identity, they can."
Unless you can specifically refute that you haven't disproved anything. The best you've given is "some people don't feel that way" or "they can still keep their old character" which again respectively marginalizes those that do feel that way and doesn't allow association between actions and identity (doing things with your identified character) respectively.
e) The question was and is irrelevant, at no point does the expectation of what a specific player would do on the market with 300mill negate the capacity oif orgs to give TSP. That's a non-sequitur. One I won't fall for.
g) I used a term I was used to using. And still we're back to the questions of a) will PLEX actually be the guiding price here? I've presented a reason
h) You're still viewing wallet values as a static. And no, no one said it wasn't expensive, in fact the initial point h) made no point of cost, just that this mechanically supported new characters, which it does.
m) And the answer is the same, will "supply" (since we need to make very sure we don't use another word) rise accordingly? If so, no, PLEX will go down, If not, yes, PLEX will go up. It is really simple, you're just inserting your predetermined conclusions.
n) For all those words you'd think you would have actually supported your point with examples but would rather again revert to talking about me. So MY question still stands "what side effects?"
Cutting the rest because it's not relevant to the list.
|
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 20:30:54 -
[6181] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:So MY question still stands "what side effects?"
Bad of course
Main source of concerns and side effects
Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1838
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 21:54:22 -
[6182] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Again, I urge you to focus on the list only. You are already wasting enough of both yours and mine time. While I will never quit until you prove your points in the list or admit being wrong I would still like to save some time. This post is unrelated to the list and each other impressions mean nothing to it or to the topic. Have a nice day! Getting this out of the way first: Again, if you want a particular thread of conversation to stop just stop responding. If you present something I'm responding to it according to my desire to do so, and won't be told by you that I can't or shouldn't. I'll make that determination.
Don ZOLA wrote:I totally agree, you have constantly provided empty phrases and digressions. That is the reason why I started simple questions which you can answer with yes or no. Still you avoid that as well :/ And we're back to the same. You say this post wastes words for us both but you have no issue with retracing this circle. Further you still are doing the same BS with your arguments themselves. That's something I'll let the other post point out in detail.
Don ZOLA wrote:If you actually compare it to the original one, you will see that my questions are still on track, while your answers are going off. Happens due to your avoiding of questions and digressions. Blame yourself :)
...
Challenged to provide counter arguments and repeatedly fails to do it or avoids or digresses. Quite defeated, but do not worry I am not finished with you yet. That is why the questions are getting simplified, I am limiting your escape space :)
Stop spreading lies, I never said it is static, i even stated it is not static, Official statistic I used gives us a much wider picture so we do not need your (wrong) speculations. Your lack of knowledge does not mean you are not wrong. How can you put something "highly speculative" in a benefit list when you even do not have a knowledge of the market? That`s rude :)
Only one deflecting here is you, in order to stop it please start answering my questions.
This list is not even worth a lol. Let`s stick to the original one, I like where it is going :) Again, I'll stick to what I chose to stick to, you can come along or not.
And no, you're anything but on track. You tried to use a measure that doesn't even represent earnings potential to say that that potential is being realized. You're still doing it. And yes, you are claiming it static and that people are continually realizing that static peak number. Those are all predicated by any argument that says current wallet numbers prove people can't afford TSP.
Besides that you haven't actually done anything to prove the influx of PLEX from people wanting TSP through that won't notably increase supply. So you're speculations, in consideration to the poor economic links you've presented on other points are supposed to sway me? That's Stupid :)
And no, pointing out the flaws in your reasoning isn't deflecting, but I can see why you want to stick to that argument. Makes a nice deflection on your part alongside your new "admit you're wrong" cry of desperation.
Quote:I did present them. They are in this thread, publicly available. You chosen to avoid them back when I posted them (you were active on the topic back then) and you avoid to read them now. So feel free to stop with the BS.
Though I am grateful for that, it would be even bigger waste of my time to explain them to you, as you do not seek to understand, you seek just to push your "points" and derail side effects to some of your deflection points. We have enough witnesses for that over these 300 pages :)
But for your convenience I even made one silly sample of side effects kick in. Not the same as my original ones, but I figured out that you really have no idea about market, consumers behaviorism, customer - service provider relations etc, so needed to just give you slight overview. Ie a chance to let you honorably admit defeat due to lack of such perspective and knowledge. Which I, having this experience with you, frankly do not expect. Even if you were the only person against billions you would not admit it. While I value persistence in general, your persistence is vain and pointless.
1) Who cares, as long as you play it dumb, avoid answering questions, go into digressions etc I am certain my opinion is correct 2) Again, focusing on non important things and semantics, we have 300 pages of the topic, majority of posters quite unhappy with the change (see unhappy customers in my previous posts), sending quite clear message to CCP. And while "I am not doing them justice or nothing at all", thankfully I have you as a "proers" white knight in shining armor whose points I am is decimating due to his lack of knowledge and his "high speculations". 3. You have added everything you had, every single line you could use to make that list look worthy. Unfortunately for you, I am here to show you how wrong you are :) If you think then important present them if not don't, but don't cry because someone won't do your legwork for you or fall for the idea that your arguments were so very sound then but for some reason are unable to be reconstructed.
And for all your talk of what you think I'd get or not get, that's just posturing from the convenient position of not trying. And probably a strategic decision to deflect from the weakness of those arguments being exposed.
And then were' right back to: Hey look, some dude holds himself to a totally different standard because he thinks what he says is gold and is basically telling everyone else they shouldn't talk unless it's top agree with him. Still, he has the gall to say everyone else is out for an agenda.
"Everyone who disagrees with me should stop posting or ADMIT THEIR WRONG! no matter how weak or contrived my points are :)" is basically all I'm getting from you right now. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1838
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 22:11:57 -
[6183] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Like i said initially though, however illogical it may seem it becomes a reality with a TSP. The investment of money in EVE will give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. And as I stated before that, It's a non issue since it's not really a competition. It a list of "people who got here first". Ask all those on the lists if they find it a non issue, its becoming quite obvious however improbable that something that can happen with the launch of the TSP you still will not acknowledge it . If your divergent with the truth on such a simple question then where does that leave you with the walls of text going back and forth with Don. What haven't I acknowledged? You only brought one scenario, that someone could buy their way into the top SP ranking, which I've addressed directly. But if you really want to open that door:
- It's unlikely to be feasible - From a gameplay standpoint it's a non-factor even if feasible - It interferes with a contest that doesn't exist because there is no way to compete for it - The meaning of having further control over progress for the entire playerbase far outstrips the few dozen who pride themselves on a static quality that can never be denied then - And really, they can still have that if CCP makes it clear who TSP users are for that purpose
And that's all things I've already presented on the ONE thing you've brought to me. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1838
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 22:28:56 -
[6184] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Player controlled TSPThe price 300m to upwards of 500m per packet . ( FREE if your goons according to Alavaria Fera ) Or possibly sub 300mill since over PLEX value it becomes cheaper to produce TSP on your ownRansom . Not even sure what this means, please elaborateNot new guy friendly . Far more new guy friendly than training as is or the BazaarReskill mechanic sub 50m. Intended mechanicRMT . - No strong argument was presented for this being a strong RMT driver. It's a possibility, but that's a consideration best left to those policing RMT. They have far better knowledge of how enticing it is and their ability to mitigate it.plex fluctuation. Inevitable result of PLEX existance, and a non-concern since a single PLEX price point isn't anyone's goalSP farm's. It first needs to be proven that SP differences caused by this mechanic are actually problematice before it can be stated that any use cases are an issue. Basically if having more SP than another player isn't an issue, neither is farming that SP.Character history irrelevant. No, character history relevance is unchanged save you won't be able to guess total SP on birthdate.Extractor - Nexx store item. This sound like irrational NEX hatredInstant perfect alt's. Same as a few above, Unless it can be argued that SP differences are problematic while excluding differences based on time this is a non issue. Especially after the broadcasting ban. Please note CCP has not taken any stance against simple unassisted multiboxing with trained alts.CCP sell direct to Pilot - Non trade-able itemIts just a micro transaction - available to anyone who wants to flex there wallet. Basically the same thing but without a) logistical limits on the extent of SP gained over time, b) creating a strong marketplace interaction and all that entails. Some thoughts on this. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6872
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 22:35:22 -
[6185] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Again, I urge you to focus on the list only. You are already wasting enough of both yours and mine time. While I will never quit until you prove your points in the list or admit being wrong I would still like to save some time. This post is unrelated to the list and each other impressions mean nothing to it or to the topic. Have a nice day! Getting this out of the way first: Again, if you want a particular thread of conversation to stop just stop responding. If you present something I'm responding to it according to my desire to do so, and won't be told by you that I can't or shouldn't. I'll make that determination. I'm pretty sure this is a futile attempt to have the "last word" in a 300-long and going thread, in the hope that being the last post will somehow sway CCP because they will just look at the last page and then make a decision based on that?
Or you know, just having to be the last one standing on an internet forum.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1838
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 22:36:33 -
[6186] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Again, I urge you to focus on the list only. You are already wasting enough of both yours and mine time. While I will never quit until you prove your points in the list or admit being wrong I would still like to save some time. This post is unrelated to the list and each other impressions mean nothing to it or to the topic. Have a nice day! Getting this out of the way first: Again, if you want a particular thread of conversation to stop just stop responding. If you present something I'm responding to it according to my desire to do so, and won't be told by you that I can't or shouldn't. I'll make that determination. I'm pretty sure this is a futile attempt to have the "last word" in a 300-long and going thread, in the hope that being the last post will somehow sway CCP because they will just look at the last page and then make a decision based on that? Or you know, just having to be the last one standing on an internet forum. When your last, best plea is just telling people to shut up... |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6872
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 22:38:37 -
[6187] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Player controlled TSPThe price 300m to upwards of 500m per packet . ( FREE if your goons according to Alavaria Fera ) Or possibly sub 300mill since over PLEX value it becomes cheaper to produce TSP on your own Some thoughts on this. I will point out, that you might as well say ships are FREE if I'm giving them to newbies. Which they are to the newbie but I also gave up a ship for them. Same if I give them a TSP or just isk or an implant.
Also, if you're in the minerals are cheaper/free if you mine them yourself group...
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6872
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 22:39:33 -
[6188] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Again, I urge you to focus on the list only. You are already wasting enough of both yours and mine time. While I will never quit until you prove your points in the list or admit being wrong I would still like to save some time. This post is unrelated to the list and each other impressions mean nothing to it or to the topic. Have a nice day! Getting this out of the way first: Again, if you want a particular thread of conversation to stop just stop responding. If you present something I'm responding to it according to my desire to do so, and won't be told by you that I can't or shouldn't. I'll make that determination. I'm pretty sure this is a futile attempt to have the "last word" in a 300-long and going thread, in the hope that being the last post will somehow sway CCP because they will just look at the last page and then make a decision based on that? Or you know, just having to be the last one standing on an internet forum. When your last, best plea is just telling people to shut up... No, you see the way it works is:
After everyone has left, they then post a victory speech post announcing their correctness. This won't happen if you keep posting.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
3
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 22:43:20 -
[6189] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Like i said initially though, however illogical it may seem it becomes a reality with a TSP. The investment of money in EVE will give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. And as I stated before that, It's a non issue since it's not really a competition. It a list of "people who got here first". Ask all those on the lists if they find it a non issue, its becoming quite obvious however improbable that something that can happen with the launch of the TSP you still will not acknowledge it . If your divergent with the truth on such a simple question then where does that leave you with the walls of text going back and forth with Don. What haven't I acknowledged? You only brought one scenario, that someone could buy their way into the top SP ranking, which I've addressed directly. But if you really want to open that door: - It's unlikely to be feasible - From a gameplay standpoint it's a non-factor even if feasible - It interferes with a contest that doesn't exist because there is no way to compete for it - The meaning of having further control over progress for the entire playerbase far outstrips the few dozen who pride themselves on a static quality that can never be denied then - And really, they can still have that if CCP makes it clear who TSP users are for that purpose And that's all things I've already presented on the ONE thing you've brought to me. You answered the point used to illustrate not the principal. same thing is a newbie joins a newbie corp, make friends with other newbies, has fun flying t1 frigate roams. following week friends in t2 frigates with t2 mods newbie say how you do that they say we pay for SP newbie gets disillusioned cause cant afford them following week friends in t2 cruisers newbie in t1 frigate gets dishearted leaves |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1838
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 22:45:01 -
[6190] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Player controlled TSPThe price 300m to upwards of 500m per packet . ( FREE if your goons according to Alavaria Fera ) Or possibly sub 300mill since over PLEX value it becomes cheaper to produce TSP on your own Some thoughts on this. I will point out, that you might as well say ships are FREE if I'm giving them to newbies. Which they are to the newbie but I also gave up a ship for them. Same if I give them a TSP or just isk or an implant. Also, if you're in the minerals are cheaper/free if you mine them yourself group... More along the lines of "I could pay x for 4 TSP, or less than x for a dual training cert and 4 extractors." It's like trying to decide between refining or selling raw ore. Depending on variables there is a right answer as far as profitability.
That evaluation still holds even if you're gathering to later give away.
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1838
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 22:48:14 -
[6191] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Like i said initially though, however illogical it may seem it becomes a reality with a TSP. The investment of money in EVE will give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. And as I stated before that, It's a non issue since it's not really a competition. It a list of "people who got here first". Ask all those on the lists if they find it a non issue, its becoming quite obvious however improbable that something that can happen with the launch of the TSP you still will not acknowledge it . If your divergent with the truth on such a simple question then where does that leave you with the walls of text going back and forth with Don. What haven't I acknowledged? You only brought one scenario, that someone could buy their way into the top SP ranking, which I've addressed directly. But if you really want to open that door: - It's unlikely to be feasible - From a gameplay standpoint it's a non-factor even if feasible - It interferes with a contest that doesn't exist because there is no way to compete for it - The meaning of having further control over progress for the entire playerbase far outstrips the few dozen who pride themselves on a static quality that can never be denied then - And really, they can still have that if CCP makes it clear who TSP users are for that purpose And that's all things I've already presented on the ONE thing you've brought to me. You answered the point used to illustrate not the principal. same thing is a newbie joins a newbie corp, make friends with other newbies, has fun flying t1 frigate roams. following week friends in t2 frigates with t2 mods newbie say how you do that they say we pay for SP newbie gets disillusioned cause cant afford them following week friends in t2 cruisers newbie in t1 frigate gets dishearted leaves The principle was answer, unless you're unreasonably narrowing it to: Maintain this mechanic as it currently stands alongside TSP. The scenario you draw doesn't actually parallel that though and again goes back to this question, if his friends are doing things to progress while he is not why are they expected to be held at his pace? Further, what reason does he need to keep that pace anyways? |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
26
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 23:07:29 -
[6192] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Like i said initially though, however illogical it may seem it becomes a reality with a TSP. The investment of money in EVE will give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. And as I stated before that, It's a non issue since it's not really a competition. It a list of "people who got here first". Ask all those on the lists if they find it a non issue, its becoming quite obvious however improbable that something that can happen with the launch of the TSP you still will not acknowledge it . If your divergent with the truth on such a simple question then where does that leave you with the walls of text going back and forth with Don. What haven't I acknowledged? You only brought one scenario, that someone could buy their way into the top SP ranking, which I've addressed directly. But if you really want to open that door: - It's unlikely to be feasible - From a gameplay standpoint it's a non-factor even if feasible - It interferes with a contest that doesn't exist because there is no way to compete for it - The meaning of having further control over progress for the entire playerbase far outstrips the few dozen who pride themselves on a static quality that can never be denied then - And really, they can still have that if CCP makes it clear who TSP users are for that purpose And that's all things I've already presented on the ONE thing you've brought to me. At present they are the untouchables - fact no mechanic in game allows them to be caught - fact contests and progression of anyone other than those in that list is the only part im interested in - fact
However illogical and improbable with the introduction of the TSP its becomes reality.
The plex, apart from when CCP stepped in once to bring the price down slightly it has never happened again. Were going to have people still wanting there plex'd accounts were going to have people exchanging plex for aurum 10 fold for extractors + skins still were going to have people buying plex for isk to buy TSP
What is going to happen to the plex cost, what happens to the TSP / plex cost - It always increases but never drops more than 100/150m from its typical peak rate.
Who will this impact on the most / who will benefit most / what will happen if plex accounts drop off / plex inflation drives market prices in some way.
All hail the plex |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6872
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 23:19:44 -
[6193] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Player controlled TSPThe price 300m to upwards of 500m per packet . ( FREE if your goons according to Alavaria Fera ) Or possibly sub 300mill since over PLEX value it becomes cheaper to produce TSP on your own Some thoughts on this. I will point out, that you might as well say ships are FREE if I'm giving them to newbies. Which they are to the newbie but I also gave up a ship for them. Same if I give them a TSP or just isk or an implant. Also, if you're in the minerals are cheaper/free if you mine them yourself group... More along the lines of "I could pay x for 4 TSP, or less than x for a dual training cert and 4 extractors." It's like trying to decide between refining or selling raw ore. Depending on variables there is a right answer as far as profitability. That evaluation still holds even if you're gathering to later give away. Fair enough then. It's also worth pointing out that one's value for "unneeded/wasted" skills is also very low as well, it makes sense to buy and empty extractor and burn those skills.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1839
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 23:20:03 -
[6194] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote: At present they are the untouchables - fact no mechanic in game allows them to be caught - fact contests and progression of anyone other than those in that list is the only part im interested in - fact
Ok, but no ones been saying otherwise.
Berrice Silf wrote:However illogical and improbable with the introduction of the TSP its becomes reality.
The plex, apart from when CCP stepped in once to bring the price down slightly it has never happened again. Were going to have people still wanting there plex'd accounts were going to have people exchanging plex for aurum 10 fold for extractors + skins still were going to have people buying plex for isk to buy TSP
What is going to happen to the plex cost, what happens to the TSP / plex cost - It always increases but never drops more than 100/150m from its typical peak rate.
Who will this impact on the most / who will benefit most / what will happen if plex accounts drop off / plex inflation drives market prices in some way. The bold one is the one that works to decrease price for PLEX. That's important here because most other expansions of PLEX capabilities never created any impetus for people to buy more PLEX from CCP only to sell in game. Rather they encourages more removal or even prevented introduction of those PLEX to the market. Regarding increasing uses and the effects that entails, so long as we're still getting new skins and other functions this change specifically can't be presented as a logical breaking point or particular determent of PLEX functions. If you want to argue against them all sure, but that's largely another conversation.
Berrice Silf wrote:All hail the plex If this is an issue for you you've been in the wrong game for a while. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6872
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 23:24:37 -
[6195] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote: You answered the point used to illustrate not the principal. same thing is a newbie joins a newbie corp, make friends with other newbies, has fun flying t1 frigate roams. following week friends in t2 frigates with t2 mods newbie say how you do that they say we pay for SP newbie gets disillusioned cause cant afford them following week friends in t2 cruisers newbie in t1 frigate gets dishearted leaves
The principle was answer, unless you're unreasonably narrowing it to: Maintain this mechanic as it currently stands alongside TSP. The scenario you draw doesn't actually parallel that though and again goes back to this question, if his friends are doing things to progress while he is not why are they expected to be held at his pace? Further, what reason does he need to keep that pace anyways? A number of corps which do retain newbies tend to have older people who essentially transfer a relatively large (relative to the newbie) amount of assets to the newbie.
Your magical idea of a newbie corp that's all newbies who all join and progress at the same time.... well you're probably a fan of the freighter convoy idea too.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
26
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 23:30:03 -
[6196] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote: At present they are the untouchables - fact no mechanic in game allows them to be caught - fact contests and progression of anyone other than those in that list is the only part im interested in - fact
Ok, but no ones been saying otherwise. Berrice Silf wrote:However illogical and improbable with the introduction of the TSP its becomes reality.
The plex, apart from when CCP stepped in once to bring the price down slightly it has never happened again. Were going to have people still wanting there plex'd accounts were going to have people exchanging plex for aurum 10 fold for extractors + skins still were going to have people buying plex for isk to buy TSP
What is going to happen to the plex cost, what happens to the TSP / plex cost - It always increases but never drops more than 100/150m from its typical peak rate.
Who will this impact on the most / who will benefit most / what will happen if plex accounts drop off / plex inflation drives market prices in some way. The bold one is the one that works to decrease price for PLEX. That's important here because most other expansions of PLEX capabilities never created any impetus for people to buy more PLEX from CCP only to sell in game. Rather they encourages more removal or even prevented introduction of those PLEX to the market. Regarding increasing uses and the effects that entails, so long as we're still getting new skins and other functions this change specifically can't be presented as a logical breaking point or particular determent of PLEX functions. If you want to argue against them all sure, but that's largely another conversation. Berrice Silf wrote:All hail the plex If this is an issue for you you've been in the wrong game for a while. Nothing at all will impact on me personally, ive stated before im totally liquid and can make use of it, Morally to change the goal posts at this point in a game i find reprehensible. You have people on the pro tsp side fighting the good fight convinced it's the way forward not realizing how it could change the financial landscape. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6872
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 23:57:31 -
[6197] - Quote
At this point the field has 100s of copies of goalposts, all painted a different color.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1839
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 00:11:34 -
[6198] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Nothing at all will impact on me personally, ive stated before im totally liquid and can make use of it, Morally to change the goal posts at this point in a game i find reprehensible. You have people on the pro tsp side fighting the good fight convinced it's the way forward not realizing how it could change the financial landscape. What goal post? Neither SP nor wealth are static universal goal posts. At the individual level we may have goals along that nature, as I do, but the introduction of TSP doesn't change what skills do, thus doesn't change my training goals, and doesn't entice me at the anticipated price points, thus not changing my in game wealth goals.
If by goal posts you mean the leaderboards, then as stated that was a predetermined and self serving contest. It only supported itself, and the SP those characters has still grants every benefit with or without TSP. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6872
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 01:31:26 -
[6199] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:If by goal posts you mean the leaderboards, then as stated that was a predetermined and self serving contest. It only supported itself, and the SP those characters has still grants every benefit with or without TSP. OOOOOOHHHH SNAPPP BOY
You did it now. Point out it was a self-serving content. Immersion broken, I might as well unsub since there's no reason to grind my SP
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
A Ingus
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
78
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 02:07:49 -
[6200] - Quote
Holy crap you two spammed the **** out of this page. Just an indicator of the quality of your posts. It appears you think he who posts last wins.
And since those that oppose this proposal appear to have tired of your antics, and no longer bother to post, I think it is time for CCP to admit they see TSP as a cash cow. And don't give a **** what players think for or against. If only to spare us of you two and give your hands a rest. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1840
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 02:21:41 -
[6201] - Quote
A Ingus wrote:Holy crap you two spammed the **** out of this page. Just an indicator of the quality of your posts. It appears you think he who posts last wins.
And since those that oppose this proposal appear to have tired of your antics, and no longer bother to post, I think it is time for CCP to admit they see TSP as a cash cow. And don't give a **** what players think for or against. If only to spare us of you two and give your hands a rest. Responding to comments made to you = spamming now?
Guess any excuse to silence those you don't agree with, or hope they're weak willed enough to be shamed into silencing themselves for defending their positions.
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 03:38:12 -
[6202] - Quote
A Ingus wrote: It appears you think he who posts last wins.
Don ZOLA wrote: While I will never quit until you prove your points in the list or admit being wrong I would still like to save some time.
"This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. " Ie trying to prove something to someone who said
Don ZOLA wrote: Unfortunately for you, I am here to show you how wrong you are
A Ingus wrote: And since those that oppose this proposal appear to have tired of your antics, and no longer bother to post...
Come tomorrow to see new Dons posts. I'm sure he will come because his pride is too huge.
Main source of concerns and side effects
Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
27
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 08:25:36 -
[6203] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Nothing at all will impact on me personally, ive stated before im totally liquid and can make use of it, Morally to change the goal posts at this point in a game i find reprehensible. You have people on the pro tsp side fighting the good fight convinced it's the way forward not realizing how it could change the financial landscape. What goal post? Neither SP nor wealth are static universal goal posts. At the individual level we may have goals along that nature, as I do, but the introduction of TSP doesn't change what skills do, thus doesn't change my training goals, and doesn't entice me at the anticipated price points, thus not changing my in game wealth goals. If by goal posts you mean the leaderboards, then as stated that was a predetermined and self serving contest. It only supported itself, and the SP those characters has still grants every benefit with or without TSP. The ranking's lists have nothing at all do with what i was talking about above, my highest character has 119m skillpoints i have quite a few round that area. Over the years a lot have tried to get skill points changed / altered / made faster / can't we buy them and every time they have been laughed at explained the principals of the game and been shut down. Without the crystal ball even you said you don't know the impact this could bring. If the company needs cash and whatever way they've tried doesn't really help, mainly because they wont change back mistakes they've made over the past few years. Why implement something that has varying unknown elements and just take the actual leap they're pussy footing round of selling them which has none. They may get some back lash but it wont affect anything in the environment and i dare say it will attract new players, it can still have its depreciation scale it can be hard capped but it wont be able to be scammed, sold for profit / RMT, used for bargaining, wont effect the ingame currency, pilots will still be intact with there baggage. They could be sold for cash and aurum so everyone has unfettered access.
The only problem with this is it doesn't pander to certain blobs, It gives the whole game an equal footing whilst generating this much needed income. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6872
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 08:42:48 -
[6204] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:A Ingus wrote: It appears you think he who posts last wins.
Don ZOLA wrote: While I will never quit until you prove your points in the list or admit being wrong I would still like to save some time.
"This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. " Ie trying to prove something to someone who said Don ZOLA wrote: Unfortunately for you, I am here to show you how wrong you are
A Ingus wrote: And since those that oppose this proposal appear to have tired of your antics, and no longer bother to post...
Come tomorrow to see new Dons posts. I'm sure he will come because his pride is too huge. Never give up!
I note though that you're off to a good start as we're looking at something that's pretty likely to happen, yeah?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6872
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 09:18:20 -
[6205] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Why implement something that has varying unknown elements and just take the actual leap they're pussy footing round of selling them which has none. They may get some back lash but it wont affect anything in the environment and i dare say it will attract new players, it can still have its depreciation scale it can be hard capped but it wont be able to be scammed, sold for profit / RMT, used for bargaining, wont effect the ingame currency, pilots will still be intact with there baggage. They could be sold for cash and aurum so everyone has unfettered access.
The only problem with this is it doesn't pander to certain blobs, It gives the whole game an equal footing whilst generating this much needed income. I can appreciate the purity and boldness to take a stand like "anything to discomfit the blobs".
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
27
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 12:42:31 -
[6206] - Quote
I'm going to try and elaborate on my previous post and be as unbiased and honest as possible starting with "That" statement made by Helmar,The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. It can be taken in any manner of ways but everyone including myself didn't include the antecedent - Let me be blunt: Unless the MMO business changes radically, our virtual goods strategy for EVE Online will remain limited in scope. Whilst i don't find MMO's have changed radically what is evolving is there flexibilty between developer and player base in games that are passing there decade mark.
If we forget about all erroneous comments like pay2win and work on the common ground of Flexibility. Blizzard took the steps to narrow there start game to end content by introducing the level 90 boost, there new expansion pre purchase offer a one time 100 boost plus early access to the new class. Whilst some moaned a lot were pleased with its direction after playing for years they liked the ability to try a new class at end game level without all the grind to get to the end game. They also took the plex concept and called it a token which has helped maintain a steady 5mill sub base, which is beginning to rise. There shop pets are vanity items but the mounts are a nice addition. Everything that blizzard did was applied unabridged without any strings attached you pay -ú40 you get level 90.
CCP are now in a position where they want some of these extra income generators but seem hesitant in taking the appropriate steps in doing it.They have offered this excuse this Half arsed attempt at customization with all manner of complications attached to stem the outcry of pay2win. As a game community you have to meet the developers half way over something's and with this flexibility why not just support them offering the sale of skill points directly to pilots without complications.
Skill points only afford you the opportunity to use it, Not what you can do with it personally. If a game is to survive both sides need flexibilty. Without new pilots we're just going to stagnate and disappear. |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 13:23:52 -
[6207] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:
CCP are now in a position where they want some of these extra income generators but seem hesitant in taking the appropriate steps in doing it.They have offered this excuse this Half arsed attempt at customization with all manner of complications attached to stem the outcry of pay2win.
I beg to differ, they took the best approach, consider the cost of SP transfer and you will see that charging based on increments is a lot more income then a one time purchase trough CCP. How much SP you think they could sell for 40$? If it's too little then it's monocle debacle, if it's too much then it's "instant perfect" characters.
They tax the transaction for every 500 000 sp, in game markets will decide the worth for each player.
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
27
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 14:03:00 -
[6208] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:
CCP are now in a position where they want some of these extra income generators but seem hesitant in taking the appropriate steps in doing it.They have offered this excuse this Half arsed attempt at customization with all manner of complications attached to stem the outcry of pay2win.
I beg to differ, they took the best approach, consider the cost of SP transfer and you will see that charging based on increments is a lot more income then a one time purchase trough CCP. How much SP you think they could sell for 40$? If it's too little then it's monocle debacle, if it's too much then it's "instant perfect" characters. They tax the transaction for every 500 000 sp, in game markets will decide the worth for each player. You really should learn to read or just shut your mouth, ive not said anything of a 1 time payment .
a 500k package for XX price with all the depreciation scale still attached. i didnt say you could only purchase one and i've not attached any price either. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
218
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 14:36:30 -
[6209] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
b) No you have not. I gave a concrete demonstration of how it worked: "Now: If a player wants to advance faster than passive training will allow while keeping their identity, they can't. If this goes through: If a player wants to advance faster than passive training will allow while keeping their identity, they can."
Unless you can specifically refute that you haven't disproved anything. The best you've given is "some people don't feel that way" or "they can still keep their old character" which again respectively marginalizes those that do feel that way and doesn't allow association between actions and identity (doing things with your identified character).
e) The question was and is irrelevant, at no point does the expectation of what a specific player would do on the market with 300mill negate the capacity of orgs to give TSP. That's a non-sequitur. One I won't fall for.
g) I used a term I was used to using. And still we're back to the question of will PLEX actually be the guiding price here? I've presented a reason why it wouldn't and would go so far as to say it may not be proced as expected due to any profit point compared to plex making it profitable to self produce over buying.
h) You're still viewing wallet values as a static. And no, no one said it wasn't expensive, in fact the initial point h) made no point of cost, just that this mechanically supported new characters, which it does.
m) And the answer is the same, will "supply" (since we need to make very sure we don't use another word) rise accordingly? If so, no, PLEX will go down, If not, yes, PLEX will go up. It is really simple, you're just inserting your predetermined conclusions.
n) For all those words you'd think you would have actually supported your point with examples but would rather again revert to talking about me. So MY question still stands "what side effects?"
Cutting the rest because it's not relevant to the list.
a) What logic you are using to state players are not at the peak of their earning potential. Justifying by your own experience or you actually researched through player base? It seems more that you are using your anecdotal experience? Let`s go deeper in those details. How do you know players knowledge in making isk to be able to state they are not at their peak? Or their free time for isk making? Or their expenses? Personal aims? Do you have a single solid reason to claim so? Of course you do not have.
"As more of the game opens up to the player base either because the player base gets more skill points on average or CCP adds patches that allow players access to more and more equipment then the amount of ISK required to maintain a similar relative standard of living in Eve is going up.
Think about what you spent in your first 3 months in Eve vs your most recent 3 months in Eve - for sure, you will be spending more today to keep up with the demands of the game.
Furthermore, as ships specialise etc and more addons come about - we all seem to have additional ships / mods for this and that - again, we are spending more ISK to keep up with the demands of the game.
Whilst technically not inflation, there is an ongoing increase in the ISK required to play the game." Read more, learn something.
People earn more than ever but they spend more than ever as well. So your points are wrong, again :shocker:. If it was like you say, periods of "regular isk making" and "peak periods (when additional motivation kicks in) that would be visible on graphs. What reasons would there be to make players reach the "peak" which you are imagining when there is no historical data that they ever did it? Suddenly, because of TSP? Nope.
Now back to my question, will TSP be expensive to average player or not?
b) Let me refresh your memory. This is original point b) TSP will allow for greater association with a players chosen identity. As I stated that is something which is already available and not a new benefit. Also, for those who want to keep advancing faster, what will happen when diminishing returns start kicking in? As we saw in calculation, they will go and buy char from bazaar. Ooops identity gone? Nope, they still have it on the main, same as now... e) You have not answered my question. Again. It does not matter is it 300 mil isk or item of equivalent value, only your digression is irrelevant. Capacity does not have to do anything with it, some corps can give brand new players 10 bil sign up bonus if they want. Will corp trust new players with TSPs (at least 300mil isk worth items)? g) Again not answering my question. Since the production cost is in direct relation to plex (cash), of course plex price will be guiding price. It is a no brainer, your "reasons" are some as for other points, useless. And increased demand will lead to increased plex pricing which will affect TSP pricing as well. When you take that in consideration, and the example how diminishing returns make char bazaar way to efficient for getting advanced chars, do you still think your original point of "plentifull TSP and greater use than char bazaar" is correct? h) As I said, only in theory because not many new players will be ready to make such investments. m) Supply will not rise accordingly. I have already answered you that question (wish you would actually answer mines :) ). Therefore do you admit you have been wrong with your original point that plex price might decrease due to this? Or (since you have a hard time admitting being wrong) do you agree plex prices will grow even more due to this change? n) If you are not able to comprehend what i wrote, it is ok. Should have said so in start so I do not get in uncomfortable position to keep challenging you. I apologize.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
218
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 14:40:55 -
[6210] - Quote
I will stop this, np. As stated in n) in previous post, I now understand what issues in this conversation you are facing and I apologize for challenging you.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
|
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 15:57:47 -
[6211] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Rat Scout wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:
CCP are now in a position where they want some of these extra income generators but seem hesitant in taking the appropriate steps in doing it.They have offered this excuse this Half arsed attempt at customization with all manner of complications attached to stem the outcry of pay2win.
I beg to differ, they took the best approach, consider the cost of SP transfer and you will see that charging based on increments is a lot more income then a one time purchase trough CCP. How much SP you think they could sell for 40$? If it's too little then it's monocle debacle, if it's too much then it's "instant perfect" characters. They tax the transaction for every 500 000 sp, in game markets will decide the worth for each player. You really should learn to read or just shut your mouth, ive not said anything of a 1 time payment . a 500k package for XX price with all the depreciation scale still attached. i didnt say you could only purchase one and i've not attached any price either.
I WILL NOT SHUT MY MOUTH!
Your suggestion is dully noted, doubt it is necessary. Players can and will make a good use of TSP. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 16:52:01 -
[6212] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote: You really should learn to read or just shut your mouth, ive not said anything of a 1 time payment .
Levi Belvar wrote: you either need to goto bed or shut your yammering you have no clue about what im talking about here obviously.
Who are you and where is Levi?
Main source of concerns and side effects
Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
|
Joseph Arjo
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 17:46:59 -
[6213] - Quote
NICE!! EVE IS GOING TO BE PAY TO WIN!!!!!! I LOVE PAY TO WIN GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ....but seriously this is a terrible idea, the character bazaar is about as far as you can take this type of activity...and its just barely tolerable (tolerate because its going to happen regardless) but opening up skill chunks to be sold? Seriously? Who thought of this? Wtf? "Insert picture of captain bicard face palming" |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
31
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 18:10:59 -
[6214] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Berrice Silf wrote: You really should learn to read or just shut your mouth, ive not said anything of a 1 time payment .
Levi Belvar wrote: you either need to goto bed or shut your yammering you have no clue about what im talking about here obviously.
Who are you and where is TylerLevi? Levi Belvar wrote: Your just like daves Levis parrot ive not even seen you come up with anything original to support what daves Levis said.
So could that be one of my eleventy accounts that im stripping and liquidating or just like you full of **** |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 18:14:26 -
[6215] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote: So could that be one of my eleventy accounts that im stripping and liquidating or just like you full of ****
Yea, we are all full of stars... stars dust.
Main source of concerns and side effects
Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1841
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 19:56:46 -
[6216] - Quote
a) Simple, you've yet to present proof people are operating at their peak rate of isk earning and are misusing metrics to try to construct the argument that they are. And we don't need further study for that because CCP provided data last FF actually detailing what people do, including idle time, destructive activity, PvE, industry, etc. So no, I didn't do a study, the people with all the data did.
So what we know is that people aren't mechanically earning isk with no other motivations.
Even from anecdote we have a funny little effect: We know poor fits exist, meaning there is a knowledge gap in certain areas that could increase isk making. We know this because we can measure efficiency over a subset of fits because we don't need them all to evaluate one. We know not all pilots use the most efficient means of isk earning in certain occupations. Observation shows us the use of the noctis for salvaging missions for instance, but blitzing is faster income. We also no activities that aren't necessarily isk efficient but serve other goals (lvl 3 blitzing for standing). We know people don't always chase isk.
Why can these count? Simple, the strength of your claim requires all players actually be operating optimally ALL THE TIME. ANY players not acting optimally work against it. Thus any example is evidence.
And no, today I'm doing less to keep up with the demands of the game than my first 3 months. Those first 3 months were filled with a) Dumb losses that were non trivial compared to my earning potential, b) an earning potential itself capped by being dragged out of the tutorial by a friend who gave a pretty poor explanation of game activities and c) even with new ships and mods like the 14 just released my average wallet is enough to cover the additions to my hanger at settled prices which wouldn't have been the case in my first 3 months.
Further than that, since I only need enough isk to cover what I'm actually using, buying more ships doesn't increase the amount I need to keep on hand since I can't lose them all at the same time.
And no, peak periods wouldn't be visible because there is no reason for them to be sync'd. Their on individual levels. A graph of total wallet values can't tell you of the individual grinds people go through because their only single insignificant data points at that level. And their spending isn't outpacing their income, their wallets are going up.
Regarding the idea that people will grind for TSP, yeah, those that want it via gameplay will in some manner because the option is open to them, but again that doesn't mean the overall isk will rise notably because it's not a full player base motivator AND a number of player incomes originate from transferring isk rather than creating new isk, meaning income that can vary exponentially without ever actually showing a difference in average wallet value.
b) Read that original point again: TSP will allow for greater association with a players chosen identity.
It's not: TSP will allow for association with a players chosen identity.
Which you have been responding to. I showed a scenario in which a greater association was the result. It didn't create association, it enhanced it. The new benefit is that enhancement, thus the pre-existance of association does not negate this benefit. I get now that your whole objection here was moving goalposts to something I never stated.
e) Oh, THAT question, I already said they already do. Which was an obvious yes. I was under the impression that you were referring to your redirection because that question was one I already answered.
g) No, the production cost is not in direct relation to PLEX, isk or cash. Even assuming a PLEX sustained account the cost of that SP is whatever the leftover cost of the PLEX is after other isk making activities are accounted for. Thus for already PLEXing accounts that isk cost for SP is 0. Those players are free to undercut those trying to depend on PLEX centric pricing. Further as mentioned elsewhere PLEX profitable TSP means it's less costly to farm your own TSP than buy it. Demand will shift towards self supply in a highly PLEX profitable market, reducing prices of sold SP.
It will still be plentiful because for some any return over the extractor is still a profit on otherwise wasted training potential.
h) That theory seems fundamentally flawed because that's the group with the most potential growth, especially under the tutelage of older players.
m) I've answered your question, and further advised I believe that conclusion to be wrong since the supply will very likely increase. You asked what increased demand on plex would do and I replied that in the absence of the anticipated supply "PLEX will go up." But reading what I'm posting instead of what you want to read isn't really your strong suit.
n) I fully understood your continued deflection to the rest of the thread and the failure to support the idea of these consequences it represents. Beyond that I'm not sure why you think this "right to be enraged" counts as a rational argument. People are mad because they are and you're statements here borderlined on acknowledging they had no factual basis while stating this was to be deferred to because rather than introduce a sound mechanic CCP should just oblige the loudest segment.
That's some pretty terrible justification. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1841
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 20:01:36 -
[6217] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:I will stop this, np. As stated in n) in previous post, I now understand what issues in this conversation you are facing and I apologize for challenging you. You stated you really wanted to end that portion of our conversation, not me. I simply offered you the best method to do so despite being fully willing to engage.
I've no issue with stopping, but please be honest about the fact that this end started with your own pleas. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1841
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 20:26:21 -
[6218] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:The ranking's lists have nothing at all do with what i was talking about above, my highest character has 119m skillpoints i have quite a few round that area. If you'd have defined goalpost there that would have taken care of that, but in the absence of any measure I went back toi the argument you presented.
Berrice Silf wrote:Over the years a lot have tried to get skill points changed / altered / made faster / can't we buy them and every time they have been laughed at explained the principals of the game and been shut down. Without the crystal ball even you said you don't know the impact this could bring. If the company needs cash and whatever way they've tried doesn't really help, mainly because they wont change back mistakes they've made over the past few years. Why implement something that has varying unknown elements and just take the actual leap they're pussy footing round of selling them which has none. They may get some back lash but it wont affect anything in the environment and i dare say it will attract new players, it can still have its depreciation scale it can be hard capped but it wont be able to be scammed, sold for profit / RMT, used for bargaining, wont effect the ingame currency, pilots will still be intact with there baggage. They could be sold for cash and aurum so everyone has unfettered access.
The only problem with this is it doesn't pander to certain blobs, It gives the whole game an equal footing whilst generating this much needed income. The primary reason they won't sell SP is because they already are as covered. It's not that they don't want to. It's that they already do at about the best price they can get for it and any immediate sale cuts into that sweet sweet skill queue online money.
Further you can't introduce an unlimited alternative to that sub. Especially when the end result of this could produce more multi account holders.
You don't bypass one revenue stream for another if you can help it.
And no, such an idea is far more offensive than this. The idea of trading SP brought this about, from what reasoning do you think outright selling it for cash would be accepted? Subject to every machination in the game is worse than "bring your CC or go home?"
Lastly I like the idea that TSP is block friendly, but blocks are somehow unable to manipulate PLEX to their advantage to obtain AUR? That seems short sighted.
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
32
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 20:53:15 -
[6219] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:The primary reason they won't sell SP is because they already are as covered. It's not that they don't want to. It's that they already do at about the best price they can get for it and any immediate sale cuts into that sweet sweet skill queue online money.
Further you can't introduce an unlimited alternative to that sub. Especially when the end result of this could produce more multi account holders.
You don't bypass one revenue stream for another if you can help it.
And no, such an idea is far more offensive than this. The idea of trading SP brought this about, from what reasoning do you think outright selling it for cash would be accepted? Subject to every machination in the game is worse than "bring your CC or go home?" If you look at other aging games now that are still subscription based, there is some form of paid acceleration from A to X ( YZ being reserved for end content )It's not bypassing one revenue stream its to compliment it. Your not forced to use it, but it must be readily available to anyone in game.
TSP will always be linked to the current plex price, regardless of whoever says we players will sell it for what we want. There will be a trader waiting to scoop low priced ones up to either store or stick straight onto the market at current day traded plex prices. They wont be in reach of the players that really need them unless associated with some alliance. Its just recycling through the current user base then when that starts to fade where then ? what happens - how is this generating new players.
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
218
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 21:18:54 -
[6220] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:bs, again a) I never said they are. Some people are, some people are not. And it will probably always be like that. I just challenged your logic, showing that we cannot know details for each person while you insisted that they will push to peak of earning in order to get TSP.
We can use the statistics tool called median. And that is what the official graph gives us.
Getting TSP in will not move everyone to their peak, ie they average line (median) will continue with its current trend. No need to digress again with non related video clips in order to put some fake credibility on. Or you think TSP will get everyone to get to their peaks? :D
I understand that you are challenged, but now you are continuing to post and that is plain rude so I really have to continue show wrong you are. Graph gives us overview on how much isk average player has. Understood? And at least 1/3 of it will be cost of TSP. Can you finally answer my question, without any bs or additional digression: Will TSP be expensive to average player or not?
Again, you are running to reply anything, failing at the basic understanding. No one said you are doing more. The word used is spending. S P E N D I N G, not D O I N G. Capiche?
b) Wrong, since not much will change. Some people will identify with their chars, with or without tsp some will not. Some will buy chars from character bazaar, some will not. There is not a single fact which can lead you to estimate the numbers and growth you are imagining. Identifying with your char can happen regardless is it the char with the most sp or not, depending on mostly players style and different aspects of game which can affect it. So the answer is still NO new benefit.
e) Please provide a single evidence of that. There is a recruitment forum, provide details about one corp which recruits brand new players and provides them ANYTHING worth 300mil of isk or above. If you cannot, then please admit you are wrong.
g) Production cost is in direct relation with plex (cash). It takes AUR to produce TSP (extractors), AUR can be obtained only by cash purchases. Please read dev blog again. Therefore you are wrong again. Do you even realize how you are looking in public now? :D Thanks
h) Most potential growth for sure. If only TSP was not out of reach for the most of new players who will not be ready to cash it, nor have a friend to buy it for them. Therefore, your speculations are wrong again.
m) Wrong. Would work if there is oversupply of plex. But guess what, there is not enough plexes even currently on the market. What will happen when the demand goes up? Plex price will continue to grow, actually sky rocket if TSP becomes popular. Educate yourself. Please go challenge official market data, can`t wait for it :D
n) I have given you official researches results on some of the key aspects in nowadays business. If you think eve online is not about business and CCP is doing this just to provide us fun, then live in lie Timmy. Since CCP is company which aims to be profitable and since they have to think of their customer base everything mentioned there is quite related to the topic of side effects. Yet you can play it dumb, so far you are doing great, but anyone who actually reads our "discussion" will easily see through your all bs, digressions, twisting out etc. :)
And that are just some of side effects . Seeing your "benefits" list is mythbusted, so far we can see only serious side effects and minor minor benefit for really small number of players.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
218
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 21:27:52 -
[6221] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I will stop this, np. As stated in n) in previous post, I now understand what issues in this conversation you are facing and I apologize for challenging you. You stated you really wanted to end that portion of our conversation, not me. I simply offered you the best method to do so despite being fully willing to engage. I've no issue with stopping, but please be honest about the fact that this end started with your own pleas.
Yes, I want to end everything asap, before you hurt yourself or something like that. I am not giving up on list even if you kill yourself though. Please and I am dead serious, if you are not posting what you are posting just to push to get your personal aim (which you nicely admitted you have), forum war win or similar, ie if you are serious while posting please go see some psychologist. I do not want to beg you to do it, after all it is about your health. But as said, if you are serious with your posts go see doctor.
I am not trying to slag you or your posting with this above, I do not need that kind of "help", just do it for your own sake.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1846
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 22:25:02 -
[6222] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I will stop this, np. As stated in n) in previous post, I now understand what issues in this conversation you are facing and I apologize for challenging you. You stated you really wanted to end that portion of our conversation, not me. I simply offered you the best method to do so despite being fully willing to engage. I've no issue with stopping, but please be honest about the fact that this end started with your own pleas. Yes, I want to end everything asap, before you hurt yourself or something like that. I am not giving up on list even if you kill yourself though. Please and I am dead serious, if you are not posting what you are posting just to push to get your personal aim (which you nicely admitted you have), forum war win or similar, ie if you are serious while posting please go see some psychologist. I do not want to beg you to do it, after all it is about your health. But as said, if you are serious with your posts go see doctor. I am not trying to slag you or your posting with this above, I do not need that kind of "help", just do it for your own sake. What delusion is this you've constructed here? Is this really the way you think? You're outlook here is really unhealthy at this point. Our disagreements aside this is the most bizarre twist of concepts I've seem.
I get that you feel you have something to prove, and that regardless of how much you want to project it it's showing through the more we do this, but at the point someone needs to say "I am not giving up on list even if you kill yourself though." you should be well aware you've taken an argument beyond your own mental health point.
If your post seemed anywhere near reasonable to you you yourself need to either re-evaluate how and why your approaching this or seek help.
And no, I've admitted no agenda, but I fear we're seeing what's really going on isn't what's registering with you.
Seriously, whatever you need to do to put this argument back in perspective, I'd suggest doing it before coming back. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 22:29:41 -
[6223] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote: ie if you are serious while posting please go see some psychologist. I do not want to beg you to do it, after all it is about your health. But as said, if you are serious with your posts go see doctor.
I am not trying to slag you or your posting with this above, I do not need that kind of "help", just do it for your own sake. Thats how your unconscious mind begging for help through advices to others. FYI Anxiety disorders are a category of mental disorders characterized by feelings of anxiety and fear, where anxiety is a worry about future events and fear is a reaction to current events.
Main source of concerns and side effects
Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1846
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 23:07:28 -
[6224] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Rage sperg a) No, the wallet graph doesn't give median earnings because it doesn't actually measure earnings, just isk in player wallets, which when you get down to it is just the amount of isk faucetted into the game as currently divided among the players. It's not median earnings. It never has been because that number is divorced from earnings since every isk transfer between players constitutes an earning that doesn't change that number.
And no ones saying everyone will move to their peak, simply that those that desire to use their in game effort to obtain them will have that option, you're moving goal posts again by turning availability into a mandate and saying that the bar for truth in people having the option is the idea that everyone must and will do so?
Will TSP be expensive? Who said it wouldn't? Is the claim that it wouldn't be? No. Does that make that question nothing but misdirection on your part to try to add extra qualifiers? Yes. Basically, if you want to get indignant about "digression" how about you actually learn not to digress and stay on the point.
b) No, it's not wrong, because it was NEVER stated that association originated from this idea or that it doesn't exist without this idea. None of the things you claim invalidate the point were ever stated, implied or otherwise conveyed. People having character association now does NOT invalidate the idea that TSP can enhance that association for some of them.
Your answer is wholly unjustified again because you're moving goal posts from more association to any association.
e) Why does it have to be brand new players? Did I say that?
"e) TSP will be offered as a recruitment bonus to various player orgs"
Nope, doesn't look like I did. I do believe we'll see some get them, but as stated prior there isn't much you'd give to a new player of that value that they'd have the knowledge and ability to put to use, so obviously you won't see it handed out as is often.
But since that's not the claim made it's still digression on your part.
g) Extractor cost has that relation at an unknown level. SP does not. Thus as stated it's possible for any price beyond the extractor to draw a profit situationally. Now, what you do have is that I didn't explicitely state that the extractor cost needed accounted for in that post but for someone who wants his past words to count in perpetuity you should appreciate this: I've mentioned it more that enough times for you to know I'm aware of how it works. Stop playing dumb when it suits you.
h) How can my speculations be wrong when those characters will inevitable grow to better earnings AND won't invariably lack veteran support? Further how is it even a speculation when the scaling behind the promotion of new character use is a fact of the proposal. I can't speculate things into the blog.
m) There doesn't need to be an over supply of PLEX, just a functional supply, which there is. There is no shortage to obtain for any services currently, just a higher price point and more hoarding due to other changes that didn't increase raw isk desire alongside PLEX functionality.
n) Ok, so we're changing the bar from side effects related to actual abuse or unintended consequence with the mechanic to just being about everyone's feelings and what market research says. That being the case this whole game shouldn't exist since the market for it was never broad in the first place.
Simply put CCP goes for profit by appealing to a niche which isn't harmed here and does what they feel best, we continue to see it and if that's the argument you want to level that's not for me to counter, instead that's something the gurus at CCP thing you're wrong on. An aside though, business reasoning is so far removed from this benefit in any way shape or form that you're basically just further digressing.
Original: n) TSP disincentivizes reputation dumping via the Bazaar |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6874
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 03:46:07 -
[6225] - Quote
At this point it's obvious that you're being trolled now.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
161
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 04:18:20 -
[6226] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:At this point it's obvious that you're being trolled now. I think he realised it a while ago however he didn't become less reasonable. It's rare and valuable skill to stay in focus especially while talking with troll.
Main source of concerns and side effects
Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
218
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 15:45:15 -
[6227] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Nonsense, again :D a) Cool beans bro, pity I never said it presents median earnings. But continue to put words in my mouth please, show everyone your truly face :D
Now slowly read what i wrote: Graph gives us overview on how much isk average player has. Got it? Where are mentioned earnings there?
Speaking of digression we came to that after your original statement: TSP will aid in speeding training for those that desire it. And then, after my objection that they need to be able to afford it as well since it will be expensive you went in your digressions and your clueless stories persuading that it will not be expensive which lead to this :) Do not blame me for the things you do please, would be much easier if you admit you are wrong :)
Let me try again, answer my question please: Will TSP be expensive for average player? Since what you did is "hidden" confession it will, I would prefer if we have clear answer for the public :)
b) Still wrong, the original question for the list is to express how it will be better. And then you have your point which does not stand on a single solid fact as the aspect of it remains individual. It is individual choice now, it will remain individual choice in future. There is not a single correlation which can work in the favor of your speculations. If we go by simple behaviorism, people who used such "speed up" will be prone to want it again. Since we have diminishing returns which turns speed ups inefficient over time, there are higher chances that when they cannot keep speeding up as used they will turn to character bazaar to purchase more advanced chars for way less investment then getting there with TSP.
And even then, regardless if they do or do not purchase chars, it does not have to affect their identification with their main. It is not written or stated anywhere that the char with the most sp is your main, nor the char you are active mostly. Your main char is the chair you choose to be. Again, individual choice.
e) Because due to diminishing returns it become inefficient? Because skilled players can earn for it if they want? Because if the corp wants to help player it is easier to provide him with ship and equipment worth that much which will help him to earn it on his own if he wants? If we go to the original question (how it will be better) what is the difference for non new players? They get 300mil value item, isk on hands, ships or equipment, what is the difference? Then answer how is it actually better and why?
Nice try putting digression on me, you have digressed everything you could multiple time, now we did full circle going back to original questions and you blame me for digressing after proving you wrong even on your digressions.
g) Regardless of level of relation of extractor cost and plex (cash) it has a direct relation, therefore will be affected by plex price. There is no need even to take SP into that equation so please stop digressing again.
Therefore your statement "No, the production cost is not in direct relation to PLEX, isk or cash." is completely wrong. Speaking of which, we can conclude that due to plex prices going up tsp will not be plentiful as it will be too expensive.
h) It is wrong because as those characters grow and become "financially independent" they will have diminishing return kicking in. And considering prices, I am quite sure new players will rather decide to buy some shiny ships and equipment they lack than invest in something they will get in ~1 week of training. Regarding veterans help, let me quote what you just said on it:
"there isn't much you'd give to a new player of that value that they'd have the knowledge and ability to put to use, so obviously you won't see it handed out as is often.". Please make up your mind, can we expect this trend to happen or not?
m) Challenging market data, nice! Even though the supply is steadily dropping and the prices are going up, you still claim supply will increase and prices will decrease. Quite interesting observation.
Supply is dropping (currently lowers in last 5 years) and prices are increasing with current demand. There will be additional demand for sure. You can only imagine the supply will grow to the point of dropping plex prices. (for speculations you actually need some market knowledge and reasons which could lead to that speculation) Prices are going up even higher, end of story. Simple as that. That is the basic law of market and you can keep denying it as much as you want, it will remain axiom you cannot change.
What side effect will happen with plex prices sky rocketing, I`ll leave you to conclude yourself (though I am sure you will say none :D).
n) Side effects are side effects no matter in which "segment" they are. They all hit the game and company behind it. Like it or not. The game was built for niche market since start and it dominated it for years. When greed pushed them out of that niche and they started changing the game in that direction, game started suffering. This is one more step in that direction. I already wrote a lot about this in my WOT`s, so I will not go into details.
If the niche was not harmed, we would not have people complaining here, quitting or planning to quit their subscriptions over this change etc. While you find it harmless, it obviously is not the case for everyone. If CCP gurus were not wrong, the game would be flourishing and they would not need so risky moves/changes. If CCP needed money, explain it to community and ask for feedback how to solve it. Maybe it would be less painful and risky to increase subscriptions or make some other micro transactions or whatever. Do not just come with some sh*ty change and then even ignore your customers feedback.
We have been digressed here by you, new post for n) due to character limit :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
218
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 15:46:00 -
[6228] - Quote
Reply for original n) TSP disincentivizes reputation dumping via the Bazaar
It does not solve it really since there are no real reputation issues for new players. Reputation takes time to build, it takes time to gain peoples trust and damage it after having it. Since diminishing returns kicks in in older (more sp) chars, char bazaar will still be first choice for advancing your sp abilities compared to TSP in that segment. And (while I will not say they do not exist, maybe there are some cases) have not really heard about some scams or similar things executed by new players. Therefore nothing is really solved.
Though, it would be first needed to define reputation and its circle of influence, other way it could be easily digressed from here based on some too small circles.
reputation n. a person's good name, honor and what the community thinks of him/her. The quality and value of one's reputation is a key issue in suits for defamation (libel and slander) since the damage to one's reputation by published untruths may determine the amount of judgment against the defamer. Sometimes a person's reputation is so great that most defamation cannot do him/her much harm. (See: defamation, libel, slander)
The opinion generally entertained by persons who know another, as to his character, (q.v.) or it is the opinion generally entertained by person; who know a family as to its pedigree, and the like. 2. In general, reputation is evidence to prove, 1st. A man's character in society. 2d. A pedigree. (q.v.) 3d. Certain prescriptive or customary rights and obligations and matters of public notoriety. (q.v.) But as such evidence is in its own nature very weak, it must be supported. 1st. When it relates to the exercise of the right or privilege, by proof of acts of enjoyment of such right or privilege, within the period of living memory; 1 Maule & Selw. 679; 5 T. R. 32; afterwards evidence of reputation may be given. 2d. The fact must be of a public nature. 3d. It must be derived from persons likely to know the facts. 4th. The facts must be general and, not particular. 5th. They must be free from suspicion.
A widespread ascription of a characteristic or trait to a person or thing.
Which is very hard to build straight away for new character. It takes time, with the time diminishing returns kick in et voila, person will rather go to char bazaar and buy new char and if he really cares about rep do a check on it before purchasing.
This would solve it if there was no diminishing returns, alas they are here.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
218
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 16:05:59 -
[6229] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I will stop this, np. As stated in n) in previous post, I now understand what issues in this conversation you are facing and I apologize for challenging you. You stated you really wanted to end that portion of our conversation, not me. I simply offered you the best method to do so despite being fully willing to engage. I've no issue with stopping, but please be honest about the fact that this end started with your own pleas. Yes, I want to end everything asap, before you hurt yourself or something like that. I am not giving up on list even if you kill yourself though. Please and I am dead serious, if you are not posting what you are posting just to push to get your personal aim (which you nicely admitted you have), forum war win or similar, ie if you are serious while posting please go see some psychologist. I do not want to beg you to do it, after all it is about your health. But as said, if you are serious with your posts go see doctor. I am not trying to slag you or your posting with this above, I do not need that kind of "help", just do it for your own sake. What delusion is this you've constructed here? Is this really the way you think? You're outlook here is really unhealthy at this point. Our disagreements aside this is the most bizarre twist of concepts I've seem. I get that you feel you have something to prove, and that regardless of how much you want to project it it's showing through the more we do this, but at the point someone needs to say "I am not giving up on list even if you kill yourself though." you should be well aware you've taken an argument beyond your own mental health point. If your post seemed anywhere near reasonable to you you yourself need to either re-evaluate how and why your approaching this or seek help. And no, I've admitted no agenda, but I fear we're seeing what's really going on isn't what's registering with you. Seriously, whatever you need to do to put this argument back in perspective, I'd suggest doing it before coming back.
First part - was said in the wrong manner I agree. It was supposed to send the message that I will not quit combined with my opinion that you are trolling or posting with your hidden agenda, ie that no matter how much you do it I will continue to prove your points wrong. It was supposed to sound funny, though I was tired, forgot smiley, did not even read it after posting and I agree it sounded wrong. For the record, I do not want you to kill your self under any circumstances regardless are they related to the game or not :)
Second part - I really do think that if you are doing these replies with all seriousness, not being able to accept you are wrong even when confronted with official data, researches, market laws then you have issues. And my friendly advice was to consult someone to solve them. Regarding admitting agenda, I missread Alavaria`s post and thought that you slipped and finally admitted it.
Anyway, I apologize for the first part. Reply whatever you want but please in some "closing" manner so I do not have to reply to it, so we can keep focus on the list. I do not have anything to prove except obvious wrongs in your list as I have entered the discussion with you, both with opposing points therefore one of us has to be wrong and I am willing to participate in it until all is cleared out.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
32
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 16:06:16 -
[6230] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: 1.The primary reason they won't sell SP is because they already are as covered. It's not that they don't want to. It's that they already do at about the best price they can get for it and any immediate sale cuts into that sweet sweet skill queue online money.Further you can't introduce an unlimited alternative to that sub. Especially when the end result of this could produce more multi account holders.You don't bypass one revenue stream for another if you can help it.
2.And no, such an idea is far more offensive than this. The idea of trading SP brought this about, from what reasoning do you think outright selling it for cash would be accepted? Subject to every machination in the game is worse than "bring your CC or go home?"
3.Lastly I like the idea that TSP is block friendly, but blocks are somehow unable to manipulate PLEX to their advantage to obtain AUR? That seems short sighted.
1. You still need an active subscription to use them just as the TSP will, It wont cut into any sub sales its just there to compliment it. Your just reaching your goal quicker.
2.The main reason being everyone in game will be able to access it, not who you know or how much you can scrape together or who your allied with. Why bring a CC as already stated it was cash / aurum.
3. I put problem to judge the reaction, you like the idea of an alliance controlled product then. That is a very biased approach and noticed that you could see that the blobs could access the plex / aurum route but your reaction to number 2 was bring your credit card or go home.
You are very careful with some interpretations of things, and can manipulate them accordingly. I find it strange that you would advocate an item which has so many drawbacks over one that has none, and its most obvious plus being availability to everyone new or old. |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6874
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 17:34:16 -
[6231] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:1. You still need an active subscription to use them just as the TSP will, It wont cut into any sub sales its just there to compliment it. Your just reaching your goal quicker. Your SP goal perhaps. May slow down your isk grinding goal (because everyone wants a certain amount of isk lying about to sleep in)
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
33
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 18:09:15 -
[6232] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:1. You still need an active subscription to use them just as the TSP will, It wont cut into any sub sales its just there to compliment it. Your just reaching your goal quicker. Your SP goal perhaps. May slow down your isk grinding goal (because everyone wants a certain amount of isk lying about to sleep in) On reaching that comfort zone or ship that you want to fly, i doubt you will then be sitting on your laurels taking a break. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6874
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 20:36:49 -
[6233] - Quote
Actually the recommendation we blobbers get is to train alts rather than stack tons of sp on one character. This does mean that packets will be useful on, again, low sp characters.
Nice.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
33
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 21:34:27 -
[6234] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Actually the recommendation we blobbers get is to train alts rather than stack tons of sp on one character. This does mean that packets will be useful on, again, low sp characters.
Nice. I would much prefer every character in the game to have a purpose and not be turned into a disposable entity. Your actions still retain the consequences but you will be able to achieve you goal quicker be it by plex / aurum or just to pay for it directly. If it's not made available to everyone then it won't help the game to grow again. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 21:39:10 -
[6235] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: 1.The primary reason they won't sell SP is because they already are as covered. It's not that they don't want to. It's that they already do at about the best price they can get for it and any immediate sale cuts into that sweet sweet skill queue online money.Further you can't introduce an unlimited alternative to that sub. Especially when the end result of this could produce more multi account holders.You don't bypass one revenue stream for another if you can help it.
2.And no, such an idea is far more offensive than this. The idea of trading SP brought this about, from what reasoning do you think outright selling it for cash would be accepted? Subject to every machination in the game is worse than "bring your CC or go home?"
3.Lastly I like the idea that TSP is block friendly, but blocks are somehow unable to manipulate PLEX to their advantage to obtain AUR? That seems short sighted.
1. You still need an active subscription to use them just as the TSP will, It wont cut into any sub sales its just there to compliment it. Your just reaching your goal quicker. 2.The main reason being everyone in game will be able to access it, not who you know or how much you can scrape together or who your allied with. Why bring a CC as already stated it was cash / aurum. 3. I put problem to judge the reaction, you like the idea of an alliance controlled product then. That is a very biased approach and noticed that you could see that the blobs could access the plex / aurum route but your reaction to number 2 was bring your credit card or go home. You are very careful with some interpretations of things, and can manipulate them accordingly. I find it strange that you would advocate an item which has so many potential drawbacks over one that has none, and its most obvious plus being availability to everyone new or old. 1. The point isn't use, it's the desire to continue progression. Currently the only way to gain SP is to be subbed and keep training. Some feel compelled to sub even though they may be taking time away from the game for that reason, increasing revenue from a model where people purely pay to play.
This divorces that for some, but keeps the mechanic of all SP coming from sub time, even if someone else. Thus all the non-TSP'ers keep going as they have, many of the TSP'ers also do so for the gains of passive training, and TSP suppliers increase sub or training cert expense to supply the tradable SP.
It's the best solution because everyone is still coming to you for that full sub price for the SP.
2. But it will very much be about what you can scrap together for it because paying 1.2B for a PLEX is worse than 300mill for TSP. So we're raising the entry point and using another item of limited, real money supply with a high value as our delimiter.
This fails to create a change from that AND turns this into a pure PLEX demand increase.
Admittedly the whole CC thing was too strong a statement, but it was intended to mark the difference between an in game driven system and a real currency driven system.
3. It's not that I like the idea of an alliance controlled item, it's that your idea makes alliances turning PLEX into one of those items, moreso than it already may be, an attractive proposition. Given the potential harms of controlled TSP or controlled PLEX and the potential economic effects, I'd much rather have the former.
And yes, I'm extremely careful with replies to the point that I can foresee what the counters will be as a point of thoroughness, but more than that out of concern that, as certain other posters are prone, intentional misinterpretation or insertion of their own bias. Obviously I can't counter it all, or maybe any of it, but I do so simply to try to be as clear, straightforward and well understood as possible on top of actually tracing things out to their conclusion. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 21:50:01 -
[6236] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Reply for original n) TSP disincentivizes reputation dumping via the Bazaar
It does not solve it really since there are no real reputation issues for new players. Reputation takes time to build, it takes time to gain peoples trust and damage it after having it. Since diminishing returns kicks in in older (more sp) chars, char bazaar will still be first choice for advancing your sp abilities compared to TSP in that segment. And (while I will not say they do not exist, maybe there are some cases) have not really heard about some scams or similar things executed by new players. Therefore nothing is really solved.
Though, it would be first needed to define reputation and its circle of influence, other way it could be easily digressed from here based on some too small circles.
reputation n. a person's good name, honor and what the community thinks of him/her. The quality and value of one's reputation is a key issue in suits for defamation (libel and slander) since the damage to one's reputation by published untruths may determine the amount of judgment against the defamer. Sometimes a person's reputation is so great that most defamation cannot do him/her much harm. (See: defamation, libel, slander)
The opinion generally entertained by persons who know another, as to his character, (q.v.) or it is the opinion generally entertained by person; who know a family as to its pedigree, and the like. 2. In general, reputation is evidence to prove, 1st. A man's character in society. 2d. A pedigree. (q.v.) 3d. Certain prescriptive or customary rights and obligations and matters of public notoriety. (q.v.) But as such evidence is in its own nature very weak, it must be supported. 1st. When it relates to the exercise of the right or privilege, by proof of acts of enjoyment of such right or privilege, within the period of living memory; 1 Maule & Selw. 679; 5 T. R. 32; afterwards evidence of reputation may be given. 2d. The fact must be of a public nature. 3d. It must be derived from persons likely to know the facts. 4th. The facts must be general and, not particular. 5th. They must be free from suspicion.
A widespread ascription of a characteristic or trait to a person or thing.
Which is very hard to build straight away for new character. It takes time, with the time diminishing returns kick in et voila, person will rather go to char bazaar and buy new char and if he really cares about rep do a check on it before purchasing.
This would solve it if there was no diminishing returns, alas they are here. You've got some things really far backwards Don.
We'll start with what you got right: "there are no real reputation issues for new players"
But why is this right? Simple, because reputation isn't at the player level, so really reputations isn't a problem created, transferred, tracked or punished at that level. It's at the character level. And sold characters very much do have the capacity to build reputations. Those reputations are not cleared upon sale. Indeed there is no public indication in game that any such sale occurred.
This is what is inherited by that new player, whatever the prior owner built as character reputation, or lack thereof. The fact that the new player has no reputation just ends up working further against them because they are more likely to have no known or trusted identities to counter this with.
Meanwhile the original player is removed from that character reputation.
Remember Don, the "person" here in the definition of reputation is the character, not the player.
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
218
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 22:30:14 -
[6237] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Reply for original n) TSP disincentivizes reputation dumping via the Bazaar
It does not solve it really since there are no real reputation issues for new players. Reputation takes time to build, it takes time to gain peoples trust and damage it after having it. Since diminishing returns kicks in in older (more sp) chars, char bazaar will still be first choice for advancing your sp abilities compared to TSP in that segment. And (while I will not say they do not exist, maybe there are some cases) have not really heard about some scams or similar things executed by new players. Therefore nothing is really solved.
Though, it would be first needed to define reputation and its circle of influence, other way it could be easily digressed from here based on some too small circles.
reputation n. a person's good name, honor and what the community thinks of him/her. The quality and value of one's reputation is a key issue in suits for defamation (libel and slander) since the damage to one's reputation by published untruths may determine the amount of judgment against the defamer. Sometimes a person's reputation is so great that most defamation cannot do him/her much harm. (See: defamation, libel, slander)
The opinion generally entertained by persons who know another, as to his character, (q.v.) or it is the opinion generally entertained by person; who know a family as to its pedigree, and the like. 2. In general, reputation is evidence to prove, 1st. A man's character in society. 2d. A pedigree. (q.v.) 3d. Certain prescriptive or customary rights and obligations and matters of public notoriety. (q.v.) But as such evidence is in its own nature very weak, it must be supported. 1st. When it relates to the exercise of the right or privilege, by proof of acts of enjoyment of such right or privilege, within the period of living memory; 1 Maule & Selw. 679; 5 T. R. 32; afterwards evidence of reputation may be given. 2d. The fact must be of a public nature. 3d. It must be derived from persons likely to know the facts. 4th. The facts must be general and, not particular. 5th. They must be free from suspicion.
A widespread ascription of a characteristic or trait to a person or thing.
Which is very hard to build straight away for new character. It takes time, with the time diminishing returns kick in et voila, person will rather go to char bazaar and buy new char and if he really cares about rep do a check on it before purchasing.
This would solve it if there was no diminishing returns, alas they are here. You've got some things really far backwards Don. We'll start with what you got right: "there are no real reputation issues for new players" But why is this right? Simple, because reputation isn't at the player level, so really reputations isn't a problem created, transferred, tracked or punished at that level. It's at the character level. And sold characters very much do have the capacity to build reputations. Those reputations are not cleared upon sale. Indeed there is no public indication in game that any such sale occurred. This is what is inherited by that new player, whatever the prior owner built as character reputation, or lack thereof. The fact that the new player has no reputation just ends up working further against them because they are more likely to have no known or trusted identities to counter this with. Meanwhile the original player is removed from that character reputation. Remember Don, the "person" here in the definition of reputation is the character, not the player.
I thought it is quite obvious I am talking about characters, since TSP are made for them, in my finishing line it clearly says character, no need to play around it. Yet I will edit my post so it is clearly understandable and then you can reply with some proper reply (er can you?)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 22:39:44 -
[6238] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Reply for original n) TSP disincentivizes reputation dumping via the Bazaar
It does not solve it really since there are no real reputation issues for new players. Reputation takes time to build, it takes time to gain peoples trust and damage it after having it. Since diminishing returns kicks in in older (more sp) chars, char bazaar will still be first choice for advancing your sp abilities compared to TSP in that segment. And (while I will not say they do not exist, maybe there are some cases) have not really heard about some scams or similar things executed by new players. Therefore nothing is really solved.
Though, it would be first needed to define reputation and its circle of influence, other way it could be easily digressed from here based on some too small circles.
reputation n. a person's good name, honor and what the community thinks of him/her. The quality and value of one's reputation is a key issue in suits for defamation (libel and slander) since the damage to one's reputation by published untruths may determine the amount of judgment against the defamer. Sometimes a person's reputation is so great that most defamation cannot do him/her much harm. (See: defamation, libel, slander)
The opinion generally entertained by persons who know another, as to his character, (q.v.) or it is the opinion generally entertained by person; who know a family as to its pedigree, and the like. 2. In general, reputation is evidence to prove, 1st. A man's character in society. 2d. A pedigree. (q.v.) 3d. Certain prescriptive or customary rights and obligations and matters of public notoriety. (q.v.) But as such evidence is in its own nature very weak, it must be supported. 1st. When it relates to the exercise of the right or privilege, by proof of acts of enjoyment of such right or privilege, within the period of living memory; 1 Maule & Selw. 679; 5 T. R. 32; afterwards evidence of reputation may be given. 2d. The fact must be of a public nature. 3d. It must be derived from persons likely to know the facts. 4th. The facts must be general and, not particular. 5th. They must be free from suspicion.
A widespread ascription of a characteristic or trait to a person or thing.
Which is very hard to build straight away for new character. It takes time, with the time diminishing returns kick in et voila, person will rather go to char bazaar and buy new char and if he really cares about rep do a check on it before purchasing.
This would solve it if there was no diminishing returns, alas they are here. You've got some things really far backwards Don. We'll start with what you got right: "there are no real reputation issues for new players" But why is this right? Simple, because reputation isn't at the player level, so really reputations isn't a problem created, transferred, tracked or punished at that level. It's at the character level. And sold characters very much do have the capacity to build reputations. Those reputations are not cleared upon sale. Indeed there is no public indication in game that any such sale occurred. This is what is inherited by that new player, whatever the prior owner built as character reputation, or lack thereof. The fact that the new player has no reputation just ends up working further against them because they are more likely to have no known or trusted identities to counter this with. Meanwhile the original player is removed from that character reputation. Remember Don, the "person" here in the definition of reputation is the character, not the player.
I think this time you have it backwards
A complete asshat, Awoxing thief of a toon with 100million SP when put up for sale at the Bazaar with return less ISK because if you are going to buy a 100mill SP toon you are going to research it's background and it's sale price will be lower than squeaky clean toon with the same SP. So what you do is milk off all its SP leaving enough to be a goodish booster alt and sell it to the less experienced players with less suspecting natures
So SP trades will make it more profitable to dump baddies and thus reputation dumping will be encouraged
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 22:59:58 -
[6239] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:I think this time you have it backwards
A complete asshat, Awoxing thief of a toon with 100million SP when put up for sale at the Bazaar with return less ISK because if you are going to buy a 100mill SP toon you are going to research it's background and it's sale price will be lower than squeaky clean toon with the same SP. So what you do is milk off all its SP leaving enough to be a goodish booster alt and sell it to the less experienced players with less suspecting natures
So SP trades will make it more profitable to dump baddies and thus reputation dumping will be encouraged No, the claim was that the new player didn't have a built reputation therefore it wasn't a concern, not that the cost wouldn't be impacted by the reputation. And in the case of a new player I believe it reasonable to conclude the investigation into the background of the character may not be as thorough, leaving the more enticing price a greater factor at current.
Since TSP first provides a likely much lower price point of entry into gaining SP it disincentivizes the Bazaar as a whole, meaning the whole issue of character research and it's effect on price vs a good one moot since the demand is moved elsewhere.
And further 100mill is a bad point to argue on since most character traded are under 50m SP per CCP.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 23:05:31 -
[6240] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:I thought it is quite obvious I am talking about characters, since TSP are made for them, in my finishing line it clearly says character, no need to play around it. Yet I will edit my post so it is clearly understandable and then you can reply with some proper reply (er can you?) If you're talking about characters then why did you say reputation wasn't an issue for new players buying characters knowing full well those characters still carry that reputation?
Or are you saying that this doesn't matter by suggesting no one would buy TSP over the Bazaar for advancement under the idea that one feels very strongly compelled to get that advancement all at once?
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Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 23:06:22 -
[6241] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:I think this time you have it backwards
A complete asshat, Awoxing thief of a toon with 100million SP when put up for sale at the Bazaar with return less ISK because if you are going to buy a 100mill SP toon you are going to research it's background and it's sale price will be lower than squeaky clean toon with the same SP. So what you do is milk off all its SP leaving enough to be a goodish booster alt and sell it to the less experienced players with less suspecting natures
So SP trades will make it more profitable to dump baddies and thus reputation dumping will be encouraged No, the claim was that the new player didn't have a built reputation therefore it wasn't a concern, not that the cost wouldn't be impacted by the reputation. And in the case of a new player I believe it reasonable to conclude the investigation into the background of the character may not be as thorough, leaving the more enticing price a greater factor at current. Since TSP first provides a likely much lower price point of entry into gaining SP it disincentivizes the Bazaar as a whole, meaning the whole issue of character research and it's effect on price vs a good one moot since the demand is moved elsewhere. And further 100mill is a bad point to argue on since most character traded are under 50m SP per CCP.
A complete asshate 50 mill SP toon will still yield better profits methinks....
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 23:12:01 -
[6242] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:I think this time you have it backwards
A complete asshat, Awoxing thief of a toon with 100million SP when put up for sale at the Bazaar with return less ISK because if you are going to buy a 100mill SP toon you are going to research it's background and it's sale price will be lower than squeaky clean toon with the same SP. So what you do is milk off all its SP leaving enough to be a goodish booster alt and sell it to the less experienced players with less suspecting natures
So SP trades will make it more profitable to dump baddies and thus reputation dumping will be encouraged No, the claim was that the new player didn't have a built reputation therefore it wasn't a concern, not that the cost wouldn't be impacted by the reputation. And in the case of a new player I believe it reasonable to conclude the investigation into the background of the character may not be as thorough, leaving the more enticing price a greater factor at current. Since TSP first provides a likely much lower price point of entry into gaining SP it disincentivizes the Bazaar as a whole, meaning the whole issue of character research and it's effect on price vs a good one moot since the demand is moved elsewhere. And further 100mill is a bad point to argue on since most character traded are under 50m SP per CCP. A complete asshate 50 mill SP toon will still yield better profits methinks.... From those willing to spend billions on a character maybe, but I'm willing to be a few hundred mill every now and then is a far more attractive proposition from the buyers perspective.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 23:16:04 -
[6243] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:More stuff a) My bad, what happened there was I said it didn't represent earnings potential and you said it was a median, but didn't specify median wallet vs earnings, thus I got confused. Now that you've specified what you meant:
Yes, it still holds true because we're looking at, per best estimations, the average character affording 2 each, before any economic influence fro motivation is visible, if it even becomes visible because players are free to say no to it or seek it at any pricepoint. Expensive isn't the metric here. If you want to talk about the list then do that or point out where there it was suggested that it wouldn't be.
b) It was expressed via the example how it is better. A player is now able to accumulate SP outside of normal training without having to have any gained abilities divorced from their identified character. That is a solid fact. It's not possible now. It would be possible with TSP. It's a choice denied by current mechanics and a choice enabled by TSP. That new factually proposed individual choice is the benefit.
Your behavioral prediction makes some interesting assumptions though: - That the compulsion to purchase SP remains relatively constant even as the amount and distribution of SP grow - That the desire to purchase TSP on any occasion will likely inherently become habit - That the desire to compulsively purchase TSP will build to the point of making a purchase multiple times that of TSP in cost
None of these are inherent with TSP purchases. TSP actually is designed such that it works against the the last in fact. Further when we look at what we already know of character purchases we're left wondering if the first 2 are true. I'd like to see numbers to figure out what the repeat rate of buyers is, for certain, but "many" new player buyers suggests unique customers rather that a high repeat market.
If that does happen it's going to be because they've peaked TSP returns, don't mind disassociation with their main at that point, which is more likely once reputation is established, and/or whatever skill set their after is alt centric. Still, it means that the TSP option was the preferable one until it was exhausted, meaning it's benefits were appreciated.
e) "Because due to diminishing returns it become inefficient?" - Diminishing returns max at over 3 years of SP. Unless you're expanding the definition ow new to that range, which is absurd, this is irrelevant.
"Because skilled players can earn for it if they want?" - And? Skilled players can earn their own ships if they want but SRP still exists.
"Because if the corp wants to help player it is easier to provide him with ship and equipment worth that much which will help him to earn it on his own if he wants?" - Who said they weren't. I don't expect this to be an either/or type of thing for these benefits when the org can support them.
"If we go to the original question (how it will be better) what is the difference for non new players? They get 300mil value item, isk on hands, ships or equipment, what is the difference? Then answer how is it actually better and why?" - Simple, it's another benefit player orgs can offer to distinguish themselves and compete for members or attract the unrecruited, possibly placing more players in those orgs vs solo or or in weak orgs which data suggests is better for retention.
And yes, we're back to where we belong, on the list as you requested. Because you deflected into whole other topics than started complaining. So here we are fixing that and you're still whining.
g) Well if we're not taking SP into account were assuming a complete unknown price in which case your every argument on cost prohibitiveness is baseless until we know extractor cost. At that point we can begin to gauge the extent of PLEX impact and base cost. Until then we're at a stalemate here.
h) Well, yes, factually they will have diminishing returns over 5m SP, but that doesn't invalidate anything. This is because a) independence isn't universally sought (see any cap ship placement program ever offered), and b) people don't stop wanting free stuff because they can earn their own.
And yeah, many new players probably would want shinys over SP, but not a lot of corps offer those shinys because the capacity to use them effectively and the ease of their loss as a result is a bad idea compared to something you can stick and keep in their head and scales benefit accordingly. Understand the difference being explained here, are corps willing? Yes, but they don't have too many opportunities that aren't likely to backfire more often than work. This offers one.
Funny thing is, when I was new I didn't want shiny things because I lost ships and didn't want to pay to replace that stuff. SP on the other hand? Well, lets just say I almost became one of the cases CCP could use against attributes standing in the way of gameplay.
m) Look at the market. Are you having issue finding PLEX? Are there fewer posted? Yes, you know what would help that? A strong and sustained desire for isk. It's not a challenge on market data. Rather it directly addresses part of the issue your player analysis identifies. Incentivizing the introduction of PLEX to increase supply.
n) Nah, at this point you're just being vague and broadening your range to insert anything looking like a counterpoint even where it doesn't belong. Fact is the whole "side effects" thing was a deflection from the contents of the list you're now claiming you want to stick to. What losses may occur from "hurt feelings" don't apply to anything on the list and as such are misdirection for the purpose of arguing on point n). If you want that as an unrelated negative of the change not pertaining to the list then sure.
Otherwise no, it's deflection. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6874
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 02:40:42 -
[6244] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:And yeah, many new players probably would want shinys over SP, but not a lot of corps offer those shinys because the capacity to use them effectively and the ease of their loss as a result is a bad idea compared to something you can stick and keep in their head and scales benefit accordingly. Understand the difference being explained here, are corps willing? Yes, but they don't have too many opportunities that aren't likely to backfire more often than work. This offers one. Hmm, well if they're new enough then there's some of those "really necessary" 4s/5s that can really accelerate their first two weeks or so.
Also, if you're early enough, all the ships are new and shiny. For example, some people in lowsec may realize there's a big fork, two whole different t1 ewar frigates.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
34
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 11:39:26 -
[6245] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:1. The point isn't use, it's the desire to continue progression. Currently the only way to gain SP is to be subbed and keep training. Some feel compelled to sub even though they may be taking time away from the game for that reason, increasing revenue from a model where people purely pay to play.
This divorces that for some, but keeps the mechanic of all SP coming from sub time, even if someone else. Thus all the non-TSP'ers keep going as they have, many of the TSP'ers also do so for the gains of passive training, and TSP suppliers increase sub or training cert expense to supply the tradable SP.
It's the best solution because everyone is still coming to you for that full sub price for the SP.
2. But it will very much be about what you can scrap together for it because paying 1.2B for a PLEX is worse than 300mill for TSP. So we're raising the entry point and using another item of limited, real money supply with a high value as our delimiter.
This fails to create a change from that AND turns this into a pure PLEX demand increase.
Admittedly the whole CC thing was too strong a statement, but it was intended to mark the difference between an in game driven system and a real currency driven system.
3. It's not that I like the idea of an alliance controlled item, it's that your idea makes alliances turning PLEX into one of those items, moreso than it already may be, an attractive proposition. Given the potential harms of controlled TSP or controlled PLEX and the potential economic effects, I'd much rather have the former.
And yes, I'm extremely careful with replies to the point that I can foresee what the counters will be as a point of thoroughness, but more than that out of concern that, as certain other posters are prone, intentional misinterpretation or insertion of their own bias. Obviously I can't counter it all, or maybe any of it, but I do so simply to try to be as clear, straightforward and well understood as possible on top of actually tracing things out to their conclusion. Your viewing the TSP with all it's erroneous use attached. The way i'm trying to get you to see it is that the "Tempus Fugit" mechanic should only apply to the people who most need it which is those entering the game new or someone tempted back after hearing that there is a way to speed the start process. There will be no effect to subs,even those who continue to sub whilst on a sabbatical. It's use is to get you into the game at a functioning level without any lengthy waiting period.
0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 25 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 25 GÇô50 million skillpoints =300,000 unallocated skillpoints added
Capped of no use above 50 million skill points.
You quote the figure of 300m but that's a minimal figure depending on the plex staying at its current price, there is still the extractor to be attached to that . Doing it this way you either pay CCP directly a set figure per packet or a set aurum price one off sets the other i.e. if the ingame one becomes to expensive via plex you have the out of game alternative. None of it will impact the game like the TSP will financially.
Any item that has the Tempus Fugit mechanic should be made available to anyone unfettered, The TSP will be a coveted Holy Grail item or at best force individuals to create there own mini farms to boost a main / Find a corp - alliance that offers them, all counter productive to stimulating the player base and getting those numbers rising of actual players. |
Jon Essler
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 18:28:54 -
[6246] - Quote
So is there any further word on this from CCP? I'm hoping this is going to make it into the game, and sooner rather than later. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 19:34:26 -
[6247] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:1. The point isn't use, it's the desire to continue progression. Currently the only way to gain SP is to be subbed and keep training. Some feel compelled to sub even though they may be taking time away from the game for that reason, increasing revenue from a model where people purely pay to play.
This divorces that for some, but keeps the mechanic of all SP coming from sub time, even if someone else. Thus all the non-TSP'ers keep going as they have, many of the TSP'ers also do so for the gains of passive training, and TSP suppliers increase sub or training cert expense to supply the tradable SP.
It's the best solution because everyone is still coming to you for that full sub price for the SP.
2. But it will very much be about what you can scrap together for it because paying 1.2B for a PLEX is worse than 300mill for TSP. So we're raising the entry point and using another item of limited, real money supply with a high value as our delimiter.
This fails to create a change from that AND turns this into a pure PLEX demand increase.
Admittedly the whole CC thing was too strong a statement, but it was intended to mark the difference between an in game driven system and a real currency driven system.
3. It's not that I like the idea of an alliance controlled item, it's that your idea makes alliances turning PLEX into one of those items, moreso than it already may be, an attractive proposition. Given the potential harms of controlled TSP or controlled PLEX and the potential economic effects, I'd much rather have the former.
And yes, I'm extremely careful with replies to the point that I can foresee what the counters will be as a point of thoroughness, but more than that out of concern that, as certain other posters are prone, intentional misinterpretation or insertion of their own bias. Obviously I can't counter it all, or maybe any of it, but I do so simply to try to be as clear, straightforward and well understood as possible on top of actually tracing things out to their conclusion. Your viewing the TSP with all it's erroneous use attached. The way i'm trying to describe is that the "Tempus Fugit" mechanic should only apply to the people who most need it which is those entering the game new / second character or someone tempted back after hearing that there is a way to speed the start process. There will be no effect to subs, even those who continue to sub whilst on a sabbatical. It's use is to get you into the game at a functioning level without any lengthy waiting period. 0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 25 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 25 GÇô50 million skillpoints =300,000 unallocated skillpoints added Capped of no use above 50 million skill points. You quote the figure of 300m but that's a minimal figure depending on the plex staying at its current price, there is still the extractor to be attached to that . Doing it this way you either pay CCP directly a set figure per packet or a set aurum price, one off sets the other i.e. if the ingame one becomes to expensive via plex you have the out of game alternative. None of it will impact the game like the TSP could financially. Any item that has the Tempus Fugit mechanic should be made available to anyone unfettered, The TSP will be a coveted Holy Grail item or at best force individuals to create there own mini farms to boost a main / Find a corp - alliance that offers them, all counter productive to stimulating the player base and getting those numbers rising of actual players. I'm only viewing it as presented and further not considering use over 50m SP "erroneous". There is also the issue of disagreeing on the concept of need. I don't think anyone needs it, which is why I'm fine with people deciding they don't want it for whatever reason. But since reallocation was a stated point in the op, I can say fully denying it to anyone negates a CCP stated goal.
Regarding the compulsion to sub, for inactives I imagine this will ease it, especially for those who find isk easy to come by and either have diverse or low SP characters they are still building. Reason being they would have no specific reason to be missing out since they could gain reasonably via TSP. If I'm right, and who knows if I am as that's the way speculation goes till it can be seen, that could also have a downward PLEX influence as fewer rich players may be PLEXing acounts through inactive downtimes for SP.
Also no, as explained 300mill is an estimate based on the expectation that the price will be around the PLEX equivalent price for the time, which as established needn't be true because we have potential producers that don't need to pay PLEX from it. If it could be established that the majority of supply would come from additional PLEX usage maybe that would hold, but we've yet to really determine that. If not, and we're fueling from training idle accounts that were already PLEXing or subbing as well as a low extractor cost we're looking at a minimal PLEX impact.
Further I'm not sure Tempus Fugit applies here since it implied idleness, like the current SP system, not activity and invested time like TSP. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
35
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 20:12:34 -
[6248] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:1. The point isn't use, it's the desire to continue progression. Currently the only way to gain SP is to be subbed and keep training. Some feel compelled to sub even though they may be taking time away from the game for that reason, increasing revenue from a model where people purely pay to play.
This divorces that for some, but keeps the mechanic of all SP coming from sub time, even if someone else. Thus all the non-TSP'ers keep going as they have, many of the TSP'ers also do so for the gains of passive training, and TSP suppliers increase sub or training cert expense to supply the tradable SP.
It's the best solution because everyone is still coming to you for that full sub price for the SP.
2. But it will very much be about what you can scrap together for it because paying 1.2B for a PLEX is worse than 300mill for TSP. So we're raising the entry point and using another item of limited, real money supply with a high value as our delimiter.
This fails to create a change from that AND turns this into a pure PLEX demand increase.
Admittedly the whole CC thing was too strong a statement, but it was intended to mark the difference between an in game driven system and a real currency driven system.
3. It's not that I like the idea of an alliance controlled item, it's that your idea makes alliances turning PLEX into one of those items, moreso than it already may be, an attractive proposition. Given the potential harms of controlled TSP or controlled PLEX and the potential economic effects, I'd much rather have the former.
And yes, I'm extremely careful with replies to the point that I can foresee what the counters will be as a point of thoroughness, but more than that out of concern that, as certain other posters are prone, intentional misinterpretation or insertion of their own bias. Obviously I can't counter it all, or maybe any of it, but I do so simply to try to be as clear, straightforward and well understood as possible on top of actually tracing things out to their conclusion. Your viewing the TSP with all it's erroneous use attached. The way i'm trying to describe is that the "Tempus Fugit" mechanic should only apply to the people who most need it which is those entering the game new / second character or someone tempted back after hearing that there is a way to speed the start process. There will be no effect to subs, even those who continue to sub whilst on a sabbatical. It's use is to get you into the game at a functioning level without any lengthy waiting period. 0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 25 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 25 GÇô50 million skillpoints =300,000 unallocated skillpoints added Capped of no use above 50 million skill points. You quote the figure of 300m but that's a minimal figure depending on the plex staying at its current price, there is still the extractor to be attached to that . Doing it this way you either pay CCP directly a set figure per packet or a set aurum price, one off sets the other i.e. if the ingame one becomes to expensive via plex you have the out of game alternative. None of it will impact the game like the TSP could financially. Any item that has the Tempus Fugit mechanic should be made available to anyone unfettered, The TSP will be a coveted Holy Grail item or at best force individuals to create there own mini farms to boost a main / Find a corp - alliance that offers them, all counter productive to stimulating the player base and getting those numbers rising of actual players. I'm only viewing it as presented and further not considering use over 50m SP "erroneous". There is also the issue of disagreeing on the concept of need. I don't think anyone needs it, which is why I'm fine with people deciding they don't want it for whatever reason. But since reallocation was a stated point in the op, I can say fully denying it to anyone negates a CCP stated goal. Regarding the compulsion to sub, for inactives I imagine this will ease it, especially for those who find isk easy to come by and either have diverse or low SP characters they are still building. Reason being they would have no specific reason to be missing out since they could gain reasonably via TSP. If I'm right, and who knows if I am as that's the way speculation goes till it can be seen, that could also have a downward PLEX influence as fewer rich players may be PLEXing acounts through inactive downtimes for SP. Also no, as explained 300mill is an estimate based on the expectation that the price will be around the PLEX equivalent price for the time, which as established needn't be true because we have potential producers that don't need to pay PLEX from it. If it could be established that the majority of supply would come from additional PLEX usage maybe that would hold, but we've yet to really determine that. If not, and we're fueling from training idle accounts that were already PLEXing or subbing as well as a low extractor cost we're looking at a minimal PLEX impact. Further I'm not sure Tempus Fugit applies here since it implied idleness, like the current SP system, not activity and invested time like TSP. Tempus fugit translation is time flies, nothing what so ever to do with idleness |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 21:12:40 -
[6249] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Tempus fugit translation is time flies, nothing what so ever to do with idleness Indeed, a saying sometimes coupled with the concept of wasting time. But apparently here that's not the desired interpretation, so what is and how does it apply?
Berrice Silf wrote:Also on your point of reallocation, we pointed this out one of those erroneous features it has, the OP stated : We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point .... I'd suggest reading that again and it's stated intent for SP respecs. No where is it stated that remapping is an erroneous feature, just one made intentionally inefficient. If your desire was to point that out not, consider it debunked on the fact that the diminishing returns were created in part to address and add cost to that feature as the selected quote states.
|
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 21:16:05 -
[6250] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:I think this time you have it backwards
A complete asshat, Awoxing thief of a toon with 100million SP when put up for sale at the Bazaar with return less ISK because if you are going to buy a 100mill SP toon you are going to research it's background and it's sale price will be lower than squeaky clean toon with the same SP. So what you do is milk off all its SP leaving enough to be a goodish booster alt and sell it to the less experienced players with less suspecting natures
So SP trades will make it more profitable to dump baddies and thus reputation dumping will be encouraged No, the claim was that the new player didn't have a built reputation therefore it wasn't a concern, not that the cost wouldn't be impacted by the reputation. And in the case of a new player I believe it reasonable to conclude the investigation into the background of the character may not be as thorough, leaving the more enticing price a greater factor at current. Since TSP first provides a likely much lower price point of entry into gaining SP it disincentivizes the Bazaar as a whole, meaning the whole issue of character research and it's effect on price vs a good one moot since the demand is moved elsewhere. And further 100mill is a bad point to argue on since most character traded are under 50m SP per CCP. A complete asshate 50 mill SP toon will still yield better profits methinks.... From those willing to spend billions on a character maybe, but I'm willing to be a few hundred mill every now and then is a far more attractive proposition from the buyers perspective.
OK let me get this straight. First it dis-incentivizes character dumping. Apart from expensive toons for which it creates the opposite, an incentive viz-a-viz milk for SP & dump as lower skilled toon. Then it encourages people with little to spend to buy these bad rep toons because of the lower price point but it doesn't encourage people with lots to spend as they will research better or not care buying to milk for SP. BUT now it really dis-incentives the bazaar as a whole.
GÇ£Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.GÇ¥ -- I think you have fallen too far down the rabbit hole Alice you are getting tangled in your own twisted logic |
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
35
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 21:36:59 -
[6251] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Tempus fugit translation is time flies, nothing what so ever to do with idleness Indeed, a saying sometimes coupled with the concept of wasting time. But apparently here that's not the desired interpretation, so what is and how does it apply? Berrice Silf wrote:Also on your point of reallocation, we pointed this out one of those erroneous features it has, the OP stated : We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point .... I'd suggest reading that again and it's stated intent for SP respecs. No where is it stated that remapping is an erroneous feature, just one made intentionally inefficient. If your desire was to point that out not, consider it debunked on the fact that the diminishing returns were created in part to address and add cost to that feature as the selected quote states. Time flies - as in accelerated time i was referring, Never have i ever heard or just even googled it about it being wasted time lol, Most obvious being time flies when your having fun - You must of led a boring life.
How is it in anyway inefficient with that minuscule loss upto 50 mill skill points. If i remember correctly you also stated the figures were off for that also. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 21:49:54 -
[6252] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote: OK let me get this straight. First it dis-incentivizes character dumping. Apart from expensive toons for which it creates the opposite, an incentive viz-a-viz milk for SP & dump as lower skilled toon. Then it encourages people with little to spend to buy these bad rep toons because of the lower price point but it doesn't encourage people with lots to spend as they will research better or not care buying to milk for SP. BUT now it really dis-incentives the bazaar as a whole.
GÇ£Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.GÇ¥ -- I think you have fallen too far down the rabbit hole Alice you are getting tangled in your own twisted logic
Your argument makes no sense since those with little to spend would look to TSP with it's lower entry cost, not the Bazaar and it's bad toons. Further those chopped up toons will fall towards the range where TSP should be most efficient, further disincentivising them.
And yes, obviously and business diverted away from the Bazaar decreases the potential and capacity for those abuses, or do you think sales happen without customers?
Did you think those objections through or just jump at the first half baked attempts at a contradiction you could come up with?
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 21:58:49 -
[6253] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Time flies - as in accelerated time i was referring, Never have i ever heard or just even googled it about it being wasted time lol, Most obvious being time flies when your having fun - You must of led a boring life. Found a similar interpretation pretty quickly, guess my google fu is stronger.
Berrice Silf wrote:How is it in anyway inefficient with that minuscule loss upto 50 mill skill points. If i remember correctly you also stated the figures were off for that also. We'll have to disagree on the concept on miniscule since 20% to me is significant, though too lenient @ 50m SP. 90% is crushing to the point I wouldn't entertain it but for the most certain of functions I'd never again use.
And I've never stated that the function was erroneous, just that it needed returns adjusted because the 80% return range (5m-50m) is too wide IMHO. That's a far cry from saying it should be unusable at 50m+.
I did at one point support a cap, but don't anymore for the reasons stated.
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
35
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 22:05:12 -
[6254] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Time flies - as in accelerated time i was referring, Never have i ever heard or just even googled it about it being wasted time lol, Most obvious being time flies when your having fun - You must of led a boring life. Found a similar interpretation pretty quickly, guess my google fu is stronger. Berrice Silf wrote:How is it in anyway inefficient with that minuscule loss upto 50 mill skill points. If i remember correctly you also stated the figures were off for that also. We'll have to disagree on the concept on miniscule since 20% to me is significant, though too lenient @ 50m SP. 90% is crushing to the point I wouldn't entertain it but for the most certain of functions I'd never again use. And I've never stated that the function was erroneous, just that it needed returns adjusted because the 80% return range (5m-50m) is too wide IMHO. That's a far cry from saying it should be unusable at 50m+. I did at one point support a cap, but don't anymore for the reasons stated. I didnt infer you said erroneous i said you stated figures were off. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 22:13:56 -
[6255] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:I didnt infer you said erroneous i said you stated figures were off. I did, and addressed that. In the context of the conversation though you were stating the idea was erroneous due to the blog professing inefficiencies. You hadn't changed that position so far as I could tell so I thought you were still arguing for it and using my past disagreement with the numbers to support the idea that I also thought the scaling wasn't making it inefficient enough.
But if you just wanted my thoughts on efficiency, it's there. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
35
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 22:20:49 -
[6256] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:I didnt infer you said erroneous i said you stated figures were off. I did, and addressed that. In the context of the conversation though you were stating the idea was erroneous due to the blog professing inefficiencies. You hadn't changed that position so far as I could tell so I thought you were still arguing for it and using my past disagreement with the numbers to support the idea that I also thought the scaling wasn't making it inefficient enough. But if you just wanted my thoughts on efficiency, it's there. Also one of the principals of earning in eve is How much ISK do you earn per unit of time (i.e., per month, or per hour ) thus giving you direct correlation between isk to time. What do you think drives the monetary inflation within eve, Don't confuse Monetary with goods either. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 22:30:01 -
[6257] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Also one of the principals of earning in eve is How much ISK do you earn per unit of time (i.e., per month, or per hour ) thus giving you direct correlation between isk to time. What do you think drives the monetary inflation within eve, Don't confuse Monetary with goods either. That correlation of isk to time based on earnings is only personally meaningful. Things don't get cheaper because a subset of players can't afford them if the remaining subset can consume them at their current prices so I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Is it related to something specific we've discussed thus far?
Regarding monetary inflation, that's simple. Isk faucets, since monetary inflation is at it's base just an increase in money supply. |
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 22:56:02 -
[6258] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote: OK let me get this straight. First it dis-incentivizes character dumping. Apart from expensive toons for which it creates the opposite, an incentive viz-a-viz milk for SP & dump as lower skilled toon. Then it encourages people with little to spend to buy these bad rep toons because of the lower price point but it doesn't encourage people with lots to spend as they will research better or not care buying to milk for SP. BUT now it really dis-incentives the bazaar as a whole.
GÇ£Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.GÇ¥ -- I think you have fallen too far down the rabbit hole Alice you are getting tangled in your own twisted logic
Your argument makes no sense since those with little to spend would look to TSP with it's lower entry cost, not the Bazaar and it's bad toons. Further those chopped up toons will fall towards the range where TSP should be most efficient, further disincentivising them. And yes, obviously any business diverted away from the Bazaar decreases the potential and capacity for those abuses, or do you think sales happen without customers? Did you think those objections through or just jump at the first half baked attempts at a contradiction you could come up with?
No No Alice I just take from your comments in your shifting position in the dialog |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 23:10:32 -
[6259] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:No No Alice I just take from your comments in your shifting position in the dialog Oh, well there's a simple solution for that, just read what I wrote and don't inject nonsensical bits, cause you didn't get this path of selling characters in bits via TSP first then selling the depleted character to the very people you just made that character useless to from me.
That's not a position shift, it's you trying to come up with any scenario to invalidate someone. |
Jon Essler
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.12.12 00:31:17 -
[6260] - Quote
If you nerds could stop sperging for a moment I'd appreciate it if anyone could answer this:
Jon Essler wrote:So is there any further word on this from CCP?
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Kerraz RedHill
Sapient Sentients
0
|
Posted - 2015.12.12 15:35:05 -
[6261] - Quote
Just wanted to say I strongly support this change. As soon as possible, please. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6874
|
Posted - 2015.12.12 21:17:23 -
[6262] - Quote
Jon Essler wrote:If you nerds could stop sperging for a moment I'd appreciate it if anyone could answer this: Jon Essler wrote:So is there any further word on this from CCP? No.
They haven't said anything else.
Back to sperging.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Ahriman Gareon
Black Raven Holdings
0
|
Posted - 2015.12.13 01:24:10 -
[6263] - Quote
I do not care for this idea myself although I could see the value in allowing players to shift some SP's within the same character. Perhaps once a year like remapping or something like that. Simply being able to buy skillpoints however just seems like a cheapening of the whole system. The planning and anticipation is part of what makes the game so rewarding |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
520
|
Posted - 2015.12.13 19:45:35 -
[6264] - Quote
Oh good grief. It may be threadnaught page 311, but I can't let this change be implemented without being on the record opposed. I'm not torn, thinking more about it or likely to change my opinion either. Firmly opposed. I'm gobsmacked this made it past the whiteboard stage actually. How? Answering that question would be more beneficial to CCP's longevity than all else.
If the goal is to get new players into the game more efficiently, you could just augment the noob sp/hr rate or drop a cerebral accelerator into each each noob npc hangar. But if a noob wants to fly a command ship on day one - too bad. I still can't fly one and its been a goal of mine for years.
I get that the logic is this isn't ptw because the sp has to be extracted from an existing character, but it won't alter the reality that folks will be able to use $$ to purchase sp. Nor will it alter the perhaps irreparable damage to the perception that your skill choices have consequences in EVE. Even if there's a cap. Even if it only occurred on a single character and wasn't a tradable commodity.
This is a slippery slope situation and a bad idea. Name change, race change, and erasing corp/contract history can't be far behind. When choices have meaningless consequences: if one change is good, two must be better.
Don't do it.
YK |
Jon Essler
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 10:39:34 -
[6265] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Jon Essler wrote:If you nerds could stop sperging for a moment I'd appreciate it if anyone could answer this: Jon Essler wrote:So is there any further word on this from CCP? No. They haven't said anything else. Back to sperging.
Ah well. One can but hope.
|
Jon Essler
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 10:49:35 -
[6266] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:I get that the logic is this isn't ptw because the sp has to be extracted from an existing character, but it won't alter the reality that folks will be able to use $$ to purchase sp. Nor will it alter the perhaps irreparable damage to the perception that your skill choices have consequences in EVE. Even if there's a cap. Even if it only occurred on a single character and wasn't a tradable commodity.
You can already use $$ to purchase ships and everything needed to fit them. How is that not as 'bad' as buying SP?
Also, I keep reading on these forums that SP isn't important. It's about "what you know", "personal skill", "experience" etc. Buying SP doesn't buy you knowledge, skill or experience, so where is the pay-to-win? What are you winning when you buy SP? |
Josef Djugashvilis
3095
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 12:53:04 -
[6267] - Quote
Jon Essler wrote:Yonis Kador wrote:I get that the logic is this isn't ptw because the sp has to be extracted from an existing character, but it won't alter the reality that folks will be able to use $$ to purchase sp. Nor will it alter the perhaps irreparable damage to the perception that your skill choices have consequences in EVE. Even if there's a cap. Even if it only occurred on a single character and wasn't a tradable commodity. You can already use $$ to purchase ships and everything needed to fit them. How is that not as 'bad' as buying SP? Also, I keep reading on these forums that SP isn't important. It's about "what you know", "personal skill", "experience" etc. Buying SP doesn't buy you knowledge, skill or experience, so where is the pay-to-win? What are you winning when you buy SP?
Buying sp is not by any means 'pay to win' but, if one buys, (to make up an example just to illustrate my point), enough sp to fly a Titan, one can learn how to fly said Titan a lot faster than one can skill up for it using the time based skill queue.
This is not a signature.
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Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 16:20:18 -
[6268] - Quote
Jon Essler wrote:Yonis Kador wrote:I get that the logic is this isn't ptw because the sp has to be extracted from an existing character, but it won't alter the reality that folks will be able to use $$ to purchase sp. Nor will it alter the perhaps irreparable damage to the perception that your skill choices have consequences in EVE. Even if there's a cap. Even if it only occurred on a single character and wasn't a tradable commodity. You can already use $$ to purchase ships and everything needed to fit them. How is that not as 'bad' as buying SP? Also, I keep reading on these forums that SP isn't important. It's about "what you know", "personal skill", "experience" etc. Buying SP doesn't buy you knowledge, skill or experience, so where is the pay-to-win? What are you winning when you buy SP?
There is a cap on skill point gain. If you could just buy them with $$ or ISK then paying your subscription alone without extra cash to supplement it would disadvantage you. If you have the players and take away the cap then $$ wins. Take a look at this and imagine what would happen if team 2 could buy the SP to put cruiser pilots into marauders, some battleship pilots into dreads and carriers and the Dreadnought pilots into Titans - all with high level or maxed out skill http://evf-eve.com/services/brcat/?s=3829,3827&b=6759400,6759410&e=2,15&t=b&r=1 In fact go through any number of battle reports and think what would happen if every ship on the side belonging to the richest alliances had their ship class increased to the next level and imagine if all of them had perfect skills and then you will see the face of pay to win
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Jon Essler
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 16:31:53 -
[6269] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Buying sp is not by any means 'pay to win' but, if one buys, (to make up an example just to illustrate my point), enough sp to fly a Titan, one can learn how to fly said Titan a lot faster than one can skill up for it using the time based skill queue.
You can only learn to fly a titan when you have the skills to fly one, so the time spent learning how to fly it is the same irrespective of how you acquired the skills. I don't see why that's a problem. Unless you mean the problem is the difference in time spent acquiring the necessary skills, but there are already mechanics that allow you to train skills faster anyway. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
35
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 16:52:16 -
[6270] - Quote
Jon Essler wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Buying sp is not by any means 'pay to win' but, if one buys, (to make up an example just to illustrate my point), enough sp to fly a Titan, one can learn how to fly said Titan a lot faster than one can skill up for it using the time based skill queue. You can only learn to fly a titan when you have the skills to fly one, so the time spent learning how to fly it is the same irrespective of how you acquired the skills. I don't see why that's a problem. Unless you mean the problem is the difference in time spent acquiring the necessary skills, but there are already mechanics that allow you to train skills faster anyway. There is no mechanic in the game that would allow you to insert month's or years of training into someone within minutes, The bazaar isn't a mechanic, It's an out of game option to allow the purchase of a complete package as is. |
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Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
8
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 16:52:21 -
[6271] - Quote
Jon Essler wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Buying sp is not by any means 'pay to win' but, if one buys, (to make up an example just to illustrate my point), enough sp to fly a Titan, one can learn how to fly said Titan a lot faster than one can skill up for it using the time based skill queue. You can only learn to fly a titan when you have the skills to fly one, so the time spent learning how to fly it is the same irrespective of how you acquired the skills. I don't see why that's a problem. Unless you mean the problem is the difference in time spent acquiring the necessary skills, but there are already mechanics that allow you to train skills faster anyway.
Does this apply to learning to fly a marauder/carrier and being able to pay to instantly get into a dreadnought/supercarrier?
Skill points are the only thing in the game tied directly to real life money (isk can be earned in game & I don't count cosmetics) you can get 2700sp/hour/toon but the average is lower. Most of us pay $10 for about 1.5 million skill points per month and I don't want to play in a game where other players can pay $100 for 150 million skill points when my subscription should be enough.
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Alexis Nightwish
358
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 18:49:56 -
[6272] - Quote
Jon Essler wrote:Yonis Kador wrote:I get that the logic is this isn't ptw because the sp has to be extracted from an existing character, but it won't alter the reality that folks will be able to use $$ to purchase sp. Nor will it alter the perhaps irreparable damage to the perception that your skill choices have consequences in EVE. Even if there's a cap. Even if it only occurred on a single character and wasn't a tradable commodity. You can already use $$ to purchase ships and everything needed to fit them. How is that not as 'bad' as buying SP? Because a ship can be destroyed, while SP (with the narrow exception of a T3C loss) cannot. It's a permanent purchase of power.
Jon Essler wrote:Also, I keep reading on these forums that SP isn't important. It's about "what you know", "personal skill", "experience" etc. Buying SP doesn't buy you knowledge, skill or experience, so where is the pay-to-win? What are you winning when you buy SP? For someone brand new to the game, you are correct. However for newbros there have been plenty of great alternative suggestions on this thread and elsewhere.
The issue I take with it, is the vets that will abuse this. By 'vet' I mean someone who has the '"what you know", "personal skill", "experience" etc.'. For example a player has a tarnished history so he soylent greens his character, gives all that SP to a new character, bypassing the one true equalizer in EVE: reputation.
I am not looking forward to 1 day old characters with 50m SP and the IRL experience to make them effective, with no history to give any indication if he's a pirate, AWOXer, spy, scammer, etc.
CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
EVE Online's "I win!" Button
Fixing bombs, not the bombers
|
Jon Essler
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 20:02:03 -
[6273] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:There is no mechanic in the game that would allow you to insert month's or years of training into someone within minutes, The bazaar isn't a mechanic, It's an out of game option to allow the purchase of a complete package as is.
Whether it's in game or out of game, the net result is exactly the same. The bazaar has existed for some time and doesn't appear to be causing EVE's downfall. |
Jon Essler
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 20:25:45 -
[6274] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:There is a cap on skill point gain. If you could just buy them with $$ or ISK then paying your subscription alone without extra cash to supplement it would disadvantage you. If you have the players and take away the cap then $$ wins. Take a look at this and imagine what would happen if team 2 could buy the SP to put cruiser pilots into marauders, some battleship pilots into dreads and carriers and the Dreadnought pilots into Titans - all with high level or maxed out skill http://evf-eve.com/services/brcat/?s=3829,3827&b=6759400,6759410&e=2,15&t=b&r=1 In fact go through any number of battle reports and think what would happen if every ship on the side belonging to the richest alliances had their ship class increased to the next level and imagine if all of them had perfect skills and then you will see the face of pay to win
So, even if your extreme example became reality, you end up with more juicy ALODs because Mr Day One Dread Pilot didn't have a clue what he was doing.
Hamish McRothimay wrote:I don't want to play in a game where other players can pay $100 for 150 million skill points when my subscription should be enough.
You are already playing that game. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
35
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 21:09:17 -
[6275] - Quote
Jon Essler wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:There is no mechanic in the game that would allow you to insert month's or years of training into someone within minutes, The bazaar isn't a mechanic, It's an out of game option to allow the purchase of a complete package as is. Whether it's in game or out of game, the net result is exactly the same. The bazaar has existed for some time and doesn't appear to be causing EVE's downfall. No its not even close to the same thing, You can't go to the bazaar and select three or four 15 / 20 million skill point industry / randomly crappy created characters then strip them all down and turn them into a perfectly trained combat character.
You laugh and say ALOD, these arn't going to be available i very much doubt to new players mainly for the reason above, You will however have to watch out for 1 day old characters with 5 to 10 years experience backing them up.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6876
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 22:23:04 -
[6276] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:however have to watch out for 1 day old characters with 5 to 10 years experience backing them up. Sounds inconvenient when you are camping a lowsec/highsec gate or running your l5s in lowsec huh
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Jon Essler
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 23:41:49 -
[6277] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:No its not even close to the same thing, You can't go to the bazaar and select three or four 15 / 20 million skill point industry / randomly crappy created characters then strip them all down and turn them into a perfectly trained combat character.
No, but you can buy one 80 mil SP character with the skills you want. |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
524
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 01:02:28 -
[6278] - Quote
Jon Essler wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:No its not even close to the same thing, You can't go to the bazaar and select three or four 15 / 20 million skill point industry / randomly crappy created characters then strip them all down and turn them into a perfectly trained combat character. No, but you can buy one 80 mil SP character with the skills you want.
But that's just it. You're buying a different character. It isn't yours. It's like buying a used car. You're carrying on someone else's legacy. You're purchasing the pros and the cons.... all the baggage of that new character. If we were to view character transfers as just "buying sp," well, then you also can already "buy" a new name, a new race and/or a new contract/employment history too.
Using that convoluted logic, it isn't at all difficult to see what's next.
If they do this, it's time to retire HTFU permanently.
YK |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6877
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 03:26:40 -
[6279] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:If they do this, it's time to retire HTFU permanently. I take it you cannot htfu to the change. Such a pity.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
10
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 04:18:41 -
[6280] - Quote
Jon Essler wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:I don't want to play in a game where other players can pay $100 for 150 million skill points when my subscription should be enough. You are already playing that game.
I missed that, where do I find them, I need to buy 75 million SP for my main, 50mill for alt 1 & 25mill for alt 2 - where do I pay my $100.
|
|
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 04:51:49 -
[6281] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Jon Essler wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:I don't want to play in a game where other players can pay $100 for 150 million skill points when my subscription should be enough. You are already playing that game. I missed that, where do I find them, I need to buy 75 million SP for my main, 50mill for alt 1 & 25mill for alt 2 - where do I pay my $100.
Why are you spouting nonsense? 100$ will buy you 5 PLEX = 6b ISK or so
Where did you get the idea of 150m SP for 6B ISK?
Please stop with the exaggerations, I am pretty sure CCP can handle basic math and you are not fooling TSP supporters either. |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 04:53:21 -
[6282] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Jon Essler wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:No its not even close to the same thing, You can't go to the bazaar and select three or four 15 / 20 million skill point industry / randomly crappy created characters then strip them all down and turn them into a perfectly trained combat character. No, but you can buy one 80 mil SP character with the skills you want. But that's just it. You're buying a different character. It isn't yours. It's like buying a used car. You're carrying on someone else's legacy. You're purchasing the pros and the cons.... all the baggage of that new character. If we were to view character transfers as just "buying sp," well, then you also can already "buy" a new name, a new race and/or a new contract/employment history too. Using that convoluted logic, it isn't at all difficult to see what's next. If they do this, it's time to retire HTFU permanently. YK
Nice, thanks for pointing out the flaws with the bazaar. All those reasons make TSP that much more attractive. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
36
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 08:39:07 -
[6283] - Quote
Jon Essler wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:No its not even close to the same thing, You can't go to the bazaar and select three or four 15 / 20 million skill point industry / randomly crappy created characters then strip them all down and turn them into a perfectly trained combat character. No, but you can buy one 80 mil SP character with the skills you want. At present there are really good characters that have a commensurate price tag, when this launches any old $hit randomness, industry, miner will command the same price tag because people will want the skill points it contains not the character or the baggage that's included.
Whether you choose to see the differences or are just driven by the opportunities this presents like above, a 50m pure combat toon will fetch a good price. Three or four randomly trained / industry / miners will fetch a lot less. You can now strip them down to create a brand new pure combat pilot out of those three or four useless creations. Emphasis on the skill points they contain not the disposable sacks they've come from.
|
Luna Bowman
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 09:01:28 -
[6284] - Quote
dear CCP, sincerelly...
are you ******* insane? Im a noob and I can see how much of a fuckup this is. |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 09:26:07 -
[6285] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Jon Essler wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:No its not even close to the same thing, You can't go to the bazaar and select three or four 15 / 20 million skill point industry / randomly crappy created characters then strip them all down and turn them into a perfectly trained combat character. No, but you can buy one 80 mil SP character with the skills you want. At present there are really good characters that have a commensurate price tag, when this launches any old $hit randomness, industry, miner will command the same price tag because people will want the skill points it contains not the character or the baggage that's included. Whether you choose to see the differences or are just driven by the opportunities this presents like above, a 50m pure combat toon will fetch a good price. Three or four randomly trained / industry / miners will fetch a lot less. You can now strip them down to create a brand new pure combat pilot out of those three or four useless creations. Emphasis on the skill points they contain not the disposable sacks they've come from.
at what cost? Care to do the math? I posted it numerous times yet people just assume these magical SP will drip out of the useless alts head. |
Jon Essler
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 10:57:14 -
[6286] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Jon Essler wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:No its not even close to the same thing, You can't go to the bazaar and select three or four 15 / 20 million skill point industry / randomly crappy created characters then strip them all down and turn them into a perfectly trained combat character. No, but you can buy one 80 mil SP character with the skills you want. But that's just it. You're buying a different character. It isn't yours. It's like buying a used car. You're carrying on someone else's legacy. You're purchasing the pros and the cons.... all the baggage of that new character. If we were to view character transfers as just "buying sp," well, then you also can already "buy" a new name, a new race and/or a new contract/employment history too. Using that convoluted logic, it isn't at all difficult to see what's next. If they do this, it's time to retire HTFU permanently. YK
Guess what is the major determining factor in the value of characters on the bazaar... I'll give you a clue, it's not their baggage. It's a factor to a minor degree: corp history etc do affect value. But it's all about the SP baby.
The bazaar exists because it's currently the only way to buy SP. People don't browse the bazaar so they can "carry on someone else's legacy" (rofl). |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
42
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 11:01:54 -
[6287] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Jon Essler wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:No its not even close to the same thing, You can't go to the bazaar and select three or four 15 / 20 million skill point industry / randomly crappy created characters then strip them all down and turn them into a perfectly trained combat character. No, but you can buy one 80 mil SP character with the skills you want. At present there are really good characters that have a commensurate price tag, when this launches any old $hit randomness, industry, miner will command the same price tag because people will want the skill points it contains not the character or the baggage that's included. Whether you choose to see the differences or are just driven by the opportunities this presents like above, a 50m pure combat toon will fetch a good price. Three or four randomly trained / industry / miners will fetch a lot less. You can now strip them down to create a brand new pure combat pilot out of those three or four useless creations. Emphasis on the skill points they contain not the disposable sacks they've come from. at what cost? Care to do the math? I posted it numerous times yet people just assume these magical SP will drip out of the useless alts head. I have 8 accounts with roughly 740m across all pilots, i don't need to do the math it will cost me just the extractor. I've tied it to the plex which i can see happening and them being ridiculously expensive for the average joe to purchase and been told some are willing to virtually give them away.
I stated before it's of no concern to me whatever happens, but i do think its wrong to implement something of this nature and not make it available to everyone. This isn't going to draw people in if they don't have access to it, all it will do is drive an even bigger wedge between those who have and those who do not.
I'm looking at the bigger picture not just how it benefits me. |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
527
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 12:31:43 -
[6288] - Quote
Jon Essler wrote:Yonis Kador wrote:Jon Essler wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:No its not even close to the same thing, You can't go to the bazaar and select three or four 15 / 20 million skill point industry / randomly crappy created characters then strip them all down and turn them into a perfectly trained combat character. No, but you can buy one 80 mil SP character with the skills you want. But that's just it. You're buying a different character. It isn't yours. It's like buying a used car. You're carrying on someone else's legacy. You're purchasing the pros and the cons.... all the baggage of that new character. If we were to view character transfers as just "buying sp," well, then you also can already "buy" a new name, a new race and/or a new contract/employment history too. Using that convoluted logic, it isn't at all difficult to see what's next. If they do this, it's time to retire HTFU permanently. YK Guess what is the major determining factor in the value of characters on the bazaar... I'll give you a clue, it's not their baggage. It's a factor to a minor degree: corp history etc do affect value. But it's all about the SP baby. The bazaar exists because it's currently the only way to buy SP. People don't browse the bazaar so they can "carry on someone else's legacy" (rofl).
If you didn't comprehend the used car analogy, fine. But I didn't write that players purchase characters to carry on legacies. Nor did I write that baggage was a feature. Those are consequences. And by continuing to write that folks can already "buy sp," you're literally asking for name change, race change and corp/contract history change too. Why not? You can also "buy" those things. What will be the rationale to prevent those next steps?
When choices have meaningless consequences: if one change is good, two must be better.
YK |
Mioka Zahou
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 14:39:02 -
[6289] - Quote
... ah hell sounds like fun, go for it CCP. |
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
16
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 16:18:33 -
[6290] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:Jon Essler wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:I don't want to play in a game where other players can pay $100 for 150 million skill points when my subscription should be enough. You are already playing that game. I missed that, where do I find them, I need to buy 75 million SP for my main, 50mill for alt 1 & 25mill for alt 2 - where do I pay my $100. Why are you spouting nonsense? 100$ will buy you 5 PLEX = 6b ISK or so Where did you get the idea of 150m SP for 6B ISK? Please stop with the exaggerations, I am pretty sure CCP can handle basic math and you are not fooling TSP supporters either.
Where on earth did you get the idea that I was talking about using MONEY to buy PLEX ?
|
|
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 19:41:12 -
[6291] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:
Where on earth did you get the idea that I was talking about using MONEY to buy PLEX ?
well uhh soooo hmmmm.... ok where I am from the "$" implies a dollar amount.
Where are you from?
Surely you could elaborate more on your numbers to purchase 150m SP characters since your conversion rates seem to be off by a few decimals.
....unless..... nah.... you would not.... would?..... nah no way you were elluding to RMT, that would be unreasonable considering that the bazaar needs 2 PLEX for any amount of SP to exchange hands while TSP will use approximately 1 PLEX / 1.5m SP......yeah doubt you were implying that purchasing TSP by violating the EULA is cheaper then the bazaar... right? |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
42
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 20:18:43 -
[6292] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:
Where on earth did you get the idea that I was talking about using MONEY to buy PLEX ?
well uhh soooo hmmmm.... ok where I am from the "$" implies a dollar amount. Where are you from? Surely you could elaborate more on your numbers to purchase 150m SP characters since your conversion rates seem to be off by a few decimals. ....unless..... nah.... you would not.... would?..... nah no way you were elluding to RMT, that would be unreasonable considering that the bazaar needs 2 PLEX for any amount of SP to exchange hands while TSP will use approximately 1 PLEX / 1.5m SP......yeah doubt you were implying that purchasing TSP by violating the EULA is cheaper then the bazaar... right? You are a first class P**** , he was saying why should he play a game that's a subscription based game then be expected to fork out even more money on top.
You replied you already are playing it
so sarcastically he answered he's my $100 give me my skill points, You need to read what people write before spouting your drivel back. |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 20:25:51 -
[6293] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Rat Scout wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:
Where on earth did you get the idea that I was talking about using MONEY to buy PLEX ?
well uhh soooo hmmmm.... ok where I am from the "$" implies a dollar amount. Where are you from? Surely you could elaborate more on your numbers to purchase 150m SP characters since your conversion rates seem to be off by a few decimals. ....unless..... nah.... you would not.... would?..... nah no way you were elluding to RMT, that would be unreasonable considering that the bazaar needs 2 PLEX for any amount of SP to exchange hands while TSP will use approximately 1 PLEX / 1.5m SP......yeah doubt you were implying that purchasing TSP by violating the EULA is cheaper then the bazaar... right? You are a first class P**** , he was saying why should he play a game that's a subscription based game then be expected to fork out even more money on top. You replied you already are playing it so sarcastically he answered he's my $100 give me my skill points, You need to read what people write before spouting your drivel back.
Well, I didn't actually say he is playing it, but that doesn't change the fact. He can go buy about 5 to 6 million skillpoints on the bazaar with 100$ right now and if he doesn't like that then he can certainly biomass if he wishes.
You still worried about your top 10 SP list? And whats with the name calling? Daddy issues? |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
44
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 20:33:35 -
[6294] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Rat Scout wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:
Where on earth did you get the idea that I was talking about using MONEY to buy PLEX ?
well uhh soooo hmmmm.... ok where I am from the "$" implies a dollar amount. Where are you from? Surely you could elaborate more on your numbers to purchase 150m SP characters since your conversion rates seem to be off by a few decimals. ....unless..... nah.... you would not.... would?..... nah no way you were elluding to RMT, that would be unreasonable considering that the bazaar needs 2 PLEX for any amount of SP to exchange hands while TSP will use approximately 1 PLEX / 1.5m SP......yeah doubt you were implying that purchasing TSP by violating the EULA is cheaper then the bazaar... right? You are a first class P**** , he was saying why should he play a game that's a subscription based game then be expected to fork out even more money on top. You replied you already are playing it so sarcastically he answered he's my $100 give me my skill points, You need to read what people write before spouting your drivel back. Well, I didn't actually say he is playing it, but that doesn't change the fact. He can go buy about 5 to 6 million skillpoints on the bazaar with 100$ right now and if he doesn't like that then he can certainly biomass if he wishes. You still worried about your top 10 SP list? And whats with the name calling? Daddy issues? 1 - im no where near the ranking of those guys, i forgot you never read posts thoroughly just skim the parts you think you can irritate people with. 2 - He never mentioned buying into the game as i said before he was being sarcastic, you clearly lack the ability to understand it. 3 - My dad's been dead years, im 53 - Long past the point of puberty when i still thought that thing is my trousers was for purely urination. By your comments though i doubt your even at that point yet. |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 20:35:58 -
[6295] - Quote
Still waiting for a sound argument against TSP, looks like your initial concept is perfect CCP. Go ahead and schedule it for the next release CCP, I can't wait to utilize it. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3096
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 20:37:52 -
[6296] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Still waiting for a sound argument against TSP, looks like your initial concept is perfect CCP. Go ahead and schedule it for the next release CCP, I can't wait to utilize it.
Please feel free to troll.
Oh, you are
This is not a signature.
|
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 20:40:08 -
[6297] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Rat Scout wrote:Still waiting for a sound argument against TSP, looks like your initial concept is perfect CCP. Go ahead and schedule it for the next release CCP, I can't wait to utilize it. Please feel free to troll. Oh, you are
Please refer from off topic posts, this is not GD. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 21:25:33 -
[6298] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote: I have 8 accounts with roughly 740m across all pilots, i don't need to do the math it will cost me just the extractor. I've tied it to the plex which i can see happening and them being ridiculously expensive for the average joe to purchase and been told some are willing to virtually give them away.
I stated before it's of no concern to me whatever happens, but i do think its wrong to implement something of this nature and not make it available to everyone. This isn't going to draw people in if they don't have access to it, all it will do is drive an even bigger wedge between those who have and those who do not.
I'm looking at the bigger picture not just how it benefits me.
The more SP you have, the more you stand to lose through consolidation. Every person who states "I have x SP across characters and this won't cost me anything" is either completely failing to account for the fact that 740m SP across as few as 8 characters is something to the tune of a single 300mill SP character and 7 different 5m SP husks assuming one of them was a 2003 char in the ~250mill SP range to begin with. It gets worse if the peak is lower on number of characters higher.
If that's a draw to some people that's fine, but costing yourself to the tune of 400m SP isn't just the extractors. It's the utility those 7+ trained characters provided.
Hamish McRothimay wrote:I don't want to play in a game where other players can pay $100 for 150 million skill points when my subscription should be enough. Your subscription is enough and would continue to be enough as nothing about the way your sub allows you to train skills would change.
If you're meaning that you would need to keep pace with those who did spend on SP, you can't keep pace with those who have more SP than you now, so why would that become important later?
If you're meaning that the sub should entitle you to 100mill SP, it would in exactly the same way as now. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
44
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 21:52:49 -
[6299] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote: I have 8 accounts with roughly 740m across all pilots, i don't need to do the math it will cost me just the extractor. I've tied it to the plex which i can see happening and them being ridiculously expensive for the average joe to purchase and been told some are willing to virtually give them away.
I stated before it's of no concern to me whatever happens, but i do think its wrong to implement something of this nature and not make it available to everyone. This isn't going to draw people in if they don't have access to it, all it will do is drive an even bigger wedge between those who have and those who do not.
I'm looking at the bigger picture not just how it benefits me.
The more SP you have, the more you stand to lose through consolidation. Every person who states "I have x SP across characters and this won't cost me anything" is either completely failing to account for the fact that 740m SP across as few as 8 characters is something to the tune of a single 300mill SP character and 7 different 5m SP husks assuming one of them was a 2003 char in the ~250mill SP range to begin with. It gets worse if the peak is lower on number of characters higher. If that's a draw to some people that's fine, but costing yourself to the tune of 400m SP isn't just the extractors. It's the utility those 7+ trained characters provided. Hamish McRothimay wrote:I don't want to play in a game where other players can pay $100 for 150 million skill points when my subscription should be enough. Your subscription is enough and would continue to be enough as nothing about the way your sub allows you to train skills would change. If you're meaning that you would need to keep pace with those who did spend on SP, you can't keep pace with those who have more SP than you now, so why would that become important later? If you're meaning that the sub should entitle you to 100mill SP, it would in exactly the same way as now. I have no intention of merging any of my characters tyson, i was just explaining to Rat that i am in a position that what ever happens it wont affect me. He's deluded into thinking i have some high ranked character when ive already stated my highest one is just coming to 120m now but i do have quite a few around that mark. and they on 11 pilots over the 8. My main concern is that doing it this way won't benefit everyone. Without the availability your not going to attract previous trialists / younger pilots who left or new players.
What they going to do advertise the fact that now you can jump straight into the thick of it totally immersive environment with the ability to speed train with the TSP, you log on and find you either have to jump through hoops to get them or invest in 10 plex just to advance a few months. |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 21:57:03 -
[6300] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:
What they going to do advertise the fact that now you can jump straight into the thick of it totally immersive environment with the ability to speed train with the TSP, you log on and find you either have to jump through hoops to get them or invest in 10 plex just to advance a few months.
You know if you used present tense, this actually makes sense.
Otherwise you are just making "assumptions" that have zero net effect on the current status quo. |
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
44
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 22:07:52 -
[6301] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:
What they going to do advertise the fact that now you can jump straight into the thick of it totally immersive environment with the ability to speed train with the TSP, you log on and find you either have to jump through hoops to get them or invest in 10 plex just to advance a few months.
You know if you used present tense, this actually makes sense. Otherwise you are just making "assumptions" that have zero net effect on the current status quo. Well seeing as the OP hasn't had the decency to even give us a heads up on what even the cost's theyre contemplating the extractor to be then every single comment here is purely speculative. Hopefully they may see sense and hit the abort button in it's current incarnation and go back to the drawing board on generating income. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 22:11:02 -
[6302] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:I have no intention of merging any of my characters tyson, i was just explaining to Rat that i am in a position that what ever happens it wont affect me. He's deluded into thinking i have some high ranked character when ive already stated my highest one is just coming to 120m now but i do have quite a few around that mark. and they on 11 pilots over the 8. My main concern is that doing it this way won't benefit everyone. Without the availability your not going to attract previous trialists / younger pilots who left or new players.
What they going to do advertise the fact that now you can jump straight into the thick of it totally immersive environment with the ability to speed train with the TSP, you log on and find you either have to jump through hoops to get them or invest in 10 plex just to advance a few months. I don't think this is trying to attract trial players, the very new or the unfamiliar with the game. I think it's trying to retain those that have decided to take the plunge because only then, after you are invested in the game, does the desire to work to develop the character become meaningful.
There is definitely a high point of potential draw, which I think is the lower half of the 5-50m SP range, where SP constraints of isk making are effectively overcome with some focused training, but there's still a strong draw to diversify skills.
I'm looking at this as a retention aid for the newish, 6 month+ players who are hitting walls in their flexibility and giving them carrots to chase. Meanwhile I do believe some will make them available sooner with the guidance to use them properly, but don't expect that to necessarily be a norm or hit all of the player base. That said since most of the game is already set up as an aspiration at that level what harm does one more do? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6877
|
Posted - 2015.12.16 02:13:54 -
[6303] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:What they going to do advertise the fact that now you can jump straight into the thick of it totally immersive environment with the ability to speed train with the TSP, you log on and find you either have to jump through hoops to get them or invest in 10 plex just to advance a few months. What do they advertise now? You can jump straight into the thick of logged out skill training?
Tyberius Franklin wrote:There is definitely a high point of potential draw, which I think is the lower half of the 5-50m SP range, where SP constraints of isk making are effectively overcome with some focused training, but there's still a strong draw to diversify skills.
I'm looking at this as a retention aid for the newish, 6 month+ players who are hitting walls in their flexibility and giving them carrots to chase. Definitely agree. Chase carrots.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Meanwhile I do believe some will make them available sooner with the guidance to use them properly, but don't expect that to necessarily be a norm or hit all of the player base. That said since most of the game is already set up as an aspiration at that level what harm does one more do? That's up them to decide.
Well, you'd think that was the case with teams before but uh well
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Dominic Altol
EVE University Ivy League
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.16 09:42:14 -
[6304] - Quote
If you've trained the skills, either by paying for your account or " earning" PLEX, then why not just reallocate them from skills you no longer wish to "use". I would suggest making the transfer of skills 1:1 using a similar system to the remap of attributes, limited to the amount or times it can be done as well as only being able to be used on your own account. for example if you wanted to use them to improve your other characters attributes.
In principal, as a relatively new player, i am not opposed to the idea of gaining skill points in areas where they would benefit/improve my experience of the game, as i play it now, similar to a lot of players i don't use some of the skills i waited eagerly for when i started.
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2015.12.16 09:58:09 -
[6305] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:What they going to do advertise the fact that now you can jump straight into the thick of it totally immersive environment with the ability to speed train with the TSP, you log on and find you either have to jump through hoops to get them or invest in 10 plex just to advance a few months. What do they advertise now? You can jump straight into the thick of logged out skill training?
I can't say personally I've seen a promo video that show's skills being trained, Seeing as you know its time based training within 30 mins of playing the game and within 24 hours you grasp the skills escalate by level what kept you playing so long. Are you suggesting that it should be changed so we have WoW in space level design, that would be tedious and some what same old. Perhaps skill points to kills, then wouldn't that create an even bigger gap from new to vet. As it stands now you have the best of both worlds, You progress in knowledge and personal skills whilst playing the game but when your logged out your still progressing passively. You now have the ability to become as space rich as your RL wallet allows by the plex, You can play for free if you want to have a space job.
Where do you draw the line, What is enough before you totally bugger the whole game up. |
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
16
|
Posted - 2015.12.16 16:36:17 -
[6306] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:What they going to do advertise the fact that now you can jump straight into the thick of it totally immersive environment with the ability to speed train with the TSP, you log on and find you either have to jump through hoops to get them or invest in 10 plex just to advance a few months. What do they advertise now? You can jump straight into the thick of logged out skill training? I can't say personally I've seen a promo video that show's skills being trained, Seeing as you know its time based training within 30 mins of playing the game and within 24 hours you grasp the skills escalate by level what kept you playing so long. Are you suggesting that it should be changed so we have WoW in space level design, that would be tedious and some what same old. Perhaps skill points for kills, then wouldn't that create an even bigger gap from new to vet. As it stands now you have the best of both worlds, You progress in knowledge and personal skills whilst playing the game but when your logged out your still progressing passively. You now have the ability to become as space rich as your RL wallet allows by the plex, You can play for free if you want to have a space job. Where do you draw the line, What is enough before you totally bugger the whole game up.
It's the thin end of the wedge talked about when the store was introduced for "vanity items only" So after monetizing skill progression the next logical step would be monetizing the content and equipment. In WOW after you have bought your way to level 90+ it would be buying the latest upgrade or newest mount but for eve here's a couple of suggestions.
Open up Jove space for occupation but require that all the gates use keys "Get a set of 20 jove gate keys for $19.99" Do you want to be able stand your ground against 4 standard Titans? then use your TSP to train for the all new Super Titan!. "Super Titan neural interface packages are available at the store just $20 for one months supply"
Of course EVE is obviously not WOW and it's surprising that people do not know this.
|
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
16
|
Posted - 2015.12.16 16:57:11 -
[6307] - Quote
Berrice's comment " Perhaps Skill Points for kills" may be worth thinking about.
They are introducing a type of skill faucet that has no sinks. If skills were a consumable item then a system to farm / generate them makes sense. How about introducing a skill loss mechanic by expanding the T3 Strategic Cruiser system to cover all ship losses and maybe even modules fitted on ships. The lowest skilled ships/modules lost would result in little or no loss to SP to help newbies and high end ships proportionally higher skill losses to reflect the whole risk vs reward ethic of EVE .
I would consider this an attractive feature even without trade-able skill points |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.16 17:44:31 -
[6308] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Berrice's comment " Perhaps Skill Points for kills" may be worth thinking about.
They are introducing a type of skill faucet that has no sinks. If skills were a consumable item then a system to farm / generate them makes sense. How about introducing a skill loss mechanic by expanding the T3 Strategic Cruiser system to cover all ship losses and maybe even modules fitted on ships. The lowest skilled ships/modules lost would result in little or no loss to SP to help newbies and high end ships proportionally higher skill losses to reflect the whole risk vs reward ethic of EVE .
I would consider this an attractive feature even without trade-able skill points Did you miss the part about diminishing returns? I know it's hard to get the facts right, mark down TSP as an improvement since there is a significant SKILL POINT sink past the 50m mark.
|
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
17
|
Posted - 2015.12.16 19:20:22 -
[6309] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:Berrice's comment " Perhaps Skill Points for kills" may be worth thinking about.
They are introducing a type of skill faucet that has no sinks. If skills were a consumable item then a system to farm / generate them makes sense. How about introducing a skill loss mechanic by expanding the T3 Strategic Cruiser system to cover all ship losses and maybe even modules fitted on ships. The lowest skilled ships/modules lost would result in little or no loss to SP to help newbies and high end ships proportionally higher skill losses to reflect the whole risk vs reward ethic of EVE .
I would consider this an attractive feature even without trade-able skill points Did you miss the part about diminishing returns? I know it's hard to get the facts right, mark down TSP as an improvement since there is a significant SKILL POINT sink past the 50m mark.
I have read about the diminishing returns but again you misread my comment. I didn't mention diminishing returns, it was a comment about introducing the loss of existing skill points when a ship is lost. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.16 19:36:25 -
[6310] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Berrice's comment " Perhaps Skill Points for kills" may be worth thinking about.
They are introducing a type of skill faucet that has no sinks. If skills were a consumable item then a system to farm / generate them makes sense. How about introducing a skill loss mechanic by expanding the T3 Strategic Cruiser system to cover all ship losses and maybe even modules fitted on ships. The lowest skilled ships/modules lost would result in little or no loss to SP to help newbies and high end ships proportionally higher skill losses to reflect the whole risk vs reward ethic of EVE .
I would consider this an attractive feature even without trade-able skill points For all of the game we've always had a skilling mechanic that didn't promote any sort of sinking as a normal mechanic. Clone losses were a punishment for neglegence and were removed. T3 SP losses weren't designed to be sinks so much as limit the use of those ships (and for the most part failed). Why would we need SP sinks now that we've mechanically acknowledged that it wasn't the greatest idea to begin with? How would we benefit? Why would we promote risk aversion further? |
|
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
17
|
Posted - 2015.12.16 20:02:20 -
[6311] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:Berrice's comment " Perhaps Skill Points for kills" may be worth thinking about.
They are introducing a type of skill faucet that has no sinks. If skills were a consumable item then a system to farm / generate them makes sense. How about introducing a skill loss mechanic by expanding the T3 Strategic Cruiser system to cover all ship losses and maybe even modules fitted on ships. The lowest skilled ships/modules lost would result in little or no loss to SP to help newbies and high end ships proportionally higher skill losses to reflect the whole risk vs reward ethic of EVE .
I would consider this an attractive feature even without trade-able skill points For all of the game we've always had a skilling mechanic that didn't promote any sort of sinking as a normal mechanic. Clone losses were a punishment for neglegence and were removed. T3 SP losses weren't designed to be sinks so much as limit the use of those ships (and for the most part failed). Why would we need SP sinks now that we've mechanically acknowledged that it wasn't the greatest idea to begin with? How would we benefit? Why would we promote risk aversion further?
But, for all the game we have had a skill point system tied to subscription that precluded any sink mechanism, losses from getting destroyed in a T3 are absolute losses that effectively cost the time invested through subscription. The trade-able system demotes skill points to the same value as isk, a monetary based system with no limitation due to time subscribed. So absolute SP loss should be included in the system not just the one side diminishing returns loss that is a bill footed by the buyer only.
Normally it would promote risk aversion but if they introduce skill point trading then skill farming will become a thing and it would be more likely to encourage multiple training or accounts to farm for skill points, So from CCP's point of view as another income stream it's a bonus ( This is the same argument used for off grid booster alts being a risk aversion factor and in fact it promoted multiple account ownership ) |
Max Muni
Muni Corp
3
|
Posted - 2015.12.16 20:48:43 -
[6312] - Quote
This is a MUST feature for the long term health of the game.
I know many Vets feel it's unfair since they had to wait to skill up to where they are, but the big issue is new player retention and not old player rewards. Old players are constantly being rewarded with new advanced ships that new players can't fly effectively.
At present, the bar is set too high in this very mature game, many don't stay with the game in any meaningful way as a result. I for one would buy them using in game earned ISK via missions, etc.. I can speak for the casual gamer and this one feature alone would make the in game goals far more meaningful.
The main Issue is.
The space game genre is the biggest it's ever been and EVE has seen little value from the massive new interest and this is directly due to new player retention after the trial period. The game is just too slow to skill and be effective. ELITE, SC and any other new game will/do not have this SP wait for months time barrier and CCP should consider any and all options to level playing field. It's old school and no longer relevant to gaming balance.
Skill should be the balancing factor, not time.
|
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.16 21:11:44 -
[6313] - Quote
I hear the force supports TSP. Obi Wan Kenobi sent me the memo. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.16 21:30:03 -
[6314] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:But, for all the game we have had a skill point system tied to subscription that precluded any sink mechanism, losses from getting destroyed in a T3 are absolute losses that effectively cost the time invested through subscription. The trade-able system demotes skill points to the same value as isk, a monetary based system with no limitation due to time subscribed. So absolute SP loss should be included in the system not just the one side diminishing returns loss that is a bill footed by the buyer only.
Normally it would promote risk aversion but if they introduce skill point trading then skill farming will become a thing and it would be more likely to encourage multiple training or accounts to farm for skill points, So from CCP's point of view as another income stream it's a bonus ( This is the same argument used for off grid booster alts being a risk aversion factor and in fact it promoted multiple account ownership ) No, at no point did the skill point system as it stands preclude loss. As I noted just prior we've had 2 loss mechanisms, one still in effect. What was decided was that that one mechanism wasn't a positive one, and further, from it's removal and lack of replacement we can see that SP loss was in no way vital or even largely important.
So you're first incorrect about the current system precluding loss, second contradicting the erroneous initial position by bringing up T3 losses and third further contradicting yourself through the fact that you advocated the system even without tradable SP. Especially with the last factor there the idea needs justified as a benefit to the game in some way. The idea of the devaluation of SP (which isn't the value of isk BTW since isk can be created without limit and transferred without loss while SP has the same limit as it ever has, just now in a pool of participating accounts instead of single characters) doesn't accomplish this. That's at best an argument for mitigating impact while acknowledging the negative.
So the logic doesn't flow that tradable SP should include SP loss. The system was never and as proposed would not be designed to require or benefit from SP loss on ship destruction.
To the idea of promotion of farming accounts: That doesn't counter the idea of risk aversion. All it does is raise the cost of PvP which creates more risk aversion even with tradable SP accounted for. Short term it may increase revenue at the cost of potentially higher PLEX prices than without these increased farms driving PLEX consumption and reduced activity due to aversion of risk from escalating recovery costs, further possibly reducing subs.
The OGB argument doesn't work in your favor either if CCPs public statements on the matter still hold. The priority there is removing them to reduce the low risk, high reward gains. Being that this is currently a goal the idea of a purely sub motivated change with a large and obviously negative impact with no justification or benefit seems unlikely. |
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
18
|
Posted - 2015.12.16 21:54:21 -
[6315] - Quote
Max Muni wrote:This is a MUST feature for the long term health of the game.
I know many Vets feel it's unfair since they had to wait to skill up to where they are, but the big issue is new player retention and not old player rewards. Old players are constantly being rewarded with new advanced ships that new players can't fly effectively.
At present, the bar is set too high in this very mature game, many don't stay with the game in any meaningful way as a result. I for one would buy them using in game earned ISK via missions, etc.. I can speak for the casual gamer and this one feature alone would make the in game goals far more meaningful.
The main Issue is.
The space game genre is the biggest it's ever been and EVE has seen little value from the massive new interest and this is directly due to new player retention after the trial period. The game is just too slow to skill and be effective. ELITE, SC and any other new game will/do not have this SP wait for months time barrier and CCP should consider any and all options to level playing field. It's old school and no longer relevant to gaming balance.
Skill should be the balancing factor, not time.
Ahhh Elite Dangerous, become a pilot rise through the ranks and command a fleet of fellow PVP'rs in defense of one of the 3 super packs. Or SC? is that Star Conflict where you become a pilot to fight for one of the major corporations and rise through the ranks to command a fleet of fellow PvP'rs to defend your chosen corporation Or does SC stand for Star Citizen where you fight for one side or another (it doesn't matter which side you fight in the tacked on FPS it's just there for fun) until you 'engage' with the universe to become the leader of a fleet of fellow PvP'rs to defend your space alliance. How about SWTOR where you chose the path of Jedi, Sith or Merc and fight you way across many planets to become a Lord of your chosen path and then you can join with fellow lords to enter the PVP arena where at least you are fighting for honor and glory not no NPC entity.
and the end game of EVE is..... ??
I was going to edit out the double negative but changed my mind as it seems appropriate |
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
18
|
Posted - 2015.12.16 22:54:42 -
[6316] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:But, for all the game we have had a skill point system tied to subscription that precluded any sink mechanism, losses from getting destroyed in a T3 are absolute losses that effectively cost the time invested through subscription. The trade-able system demotes skill points to the same value as isk, a monetary based system with no limitation due to time subscribed. So absolute SP loss should be included in the system not just the one side diminishing returns loss that is a bill footed by the buyer only.
Normally it would promote risk aversion but if they introduce skill point trading then skill farming will become a thing and it would be more likely to encourage multiple training or accounts to farm for skill points, So from CCP's point of view as another income stream it's a bonus ( This is the same argument used for off grid booster alts being a risk aversion factor and in fact it promoted multiple account ownership ) No, at no point did the skill point system as it stands preclude loss. As I noted just prior we've had 2 loss mechanisms, one still in effect. What was decided was that that one mechanism wasn't a positive one, and further, from it's removal and lack of replacement we can see that SP loss was in no way vital or even largely important. So you're first incorrect about the current system precluding loss, second contradicting the erroneous initial position by bringing up T3 losses and third further contradicting yourself through the fact that you advocated the system even without tradable SP. Especially with the last factor there the idea needs justified as a benefit to the game in some way. The idea of the devaluation of SP (which isn't the value of isk BTW since isk can be created without limit and transferred without loss while SP has the same limit as it ever has, just now in a pool of participating accounts instead of single characters) doesn't accomplish this. That's at best an argument for mitigating impact while acknowledging the negative. So the logic doesn't flow that tradable SP should include SP loss. The system was never and as proposed would not be designed to require or benefit from SP loss on ship destruction. To the idea of promotion of farming accounts: That doesn't counter the idea of risk aversion. All it does is raise the cost of PvP which creates more risk aversion even with tradable SP accounted for. Short term it may increase revenue at the cost of potentially higher PLEX prices than without these increased farms driving PLEX consumption and reduced activity due to aversion of risk from escalating recovery costs, further possibly reducing subs. The OGB argument doesn't work in your favor either if CCPs public statements on the matter still hold. The priority there is removing them to reduce the low risk, high reward gains. Being that this is currently a goal the idea of a purely sub motivated change with a large and obviously negative impact with no justification or benefit seems unlikely.
That would be precluding the use of my proposed SP loss for Ship loss mechanism. Sorry you wasted a most eloquent response on your false presumption.
The only absolute loss in the trade-able SP exchange is by the buyer through diminishing returns ( I did read about it) The seller is trading his SP for ISK therefore it's not a loss.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.16 23:29:05 -
[6317] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:That would be precluding the use of my proposed SP loss for Ship loss mechanism. Sorry you wasted a most eloquent response on your false presumption.
The only absolute loss in the trade-able SP exchange is by the buyer through diminishing returns ( I did read about it) The seller is trading his SP for ISK therefore it's not a loss. What presumption is false? You advocated loss of SP on ship loss and I addressed that. You further advocated it in the absence of a change which makes everything in the op irrelevant for that point as none of it yet applies. You also stated the idea in the op creates room for SP loss on ship destruction and I asked you to justify that, and addressed the fact that your prior attempts at justification were flawed.
There were no assumptions, everything came directly from what you said:
"They are introducing a type of skill faucet that has no sinks. If skills were a consumable item then a system to farm / generate them makes sense. How about introducing a skill loss mechanic by expanding the T3 Strategic Cruiser system to cover all ship losses and maybe even modules fitted on ships." - There is no introduction since SP has always been a faucet with few sinks and the most common of which was removed. We never had any reason since then to believe such sinks were beneficial or necessary. Pointing that out in direct response isn't an assumption.
"I would consider this an attractive feature even without trade-able skill points" - Which establishes that this mechanism is not simply a response to the proposal in the op but an idea you think has it's own merits. No assumptions there.
"for all the game we have had a skill point system tied to subscription that precluded any sink mechanism" - To which I responded that's what clone grades were, so it was in no way precluded, just judged non-beneficial. And again, no assumption. Just a response to what you said. If you meant to say from ship loss specifically, as addressed you would still be wrong with T3s and further, if you mean something, you should write it rather than make assumptions yourself about your reader. I made none. I just read what was presented.
The rest was further exploration and explanation of those points. And still you have yet to address the fully relevant request for benefit regarding this idea aside from suggesting the promotion of SP farms at the expense of all else is positive. |
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
18
|
Posted - 2015.12.17 15:44:53 -
[6318] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:That would be precluding the use of my proposed SP loss for Ship loss mechanism. Sorry you wasted a most eloquent response on your false presumption.
The only absolute loss in the trade-able SP exchange is by the buyer through diminishing returns ( I did read about it) The seller is trading his SP for ISK therefore it's not a loss. What presumption is false? You advocated loss of SP on ship loss and I addressed that. You further advocated it in the absence of a change which makes everything in the op irrelevant for that point as none of it yet applies. You also stated the idea in the op creates room for SP loss on ship destruction and I asked you to justify that, and addressed the fact that your prior attempts at justification were flawed. There were no assumptions, everything came directly from what you said: "They are introducing a type of skill faucet that has no sinks. If skills were a consumable item then a system to farm / generate them makes sense. How about introducing a skill loss mechanic by expanding the T3 Strategic Cruiser system to cover all ship losses and maybe even modules fitted on ships." - There is no introduction since SP has always been a faucet with few sinks and the most common of which was removed. We never had any reason since then to believe such sinks were beneficial or necessary. Pointing that out in direct response isn't an assumption."I would consider this an attractive feature even without trade-able skill points" - Which establishes that this mechanism is not simply a response to the proposal in the op but an idea you think has it's own merits. No assumptions there."for all the game we have had a skill point system tied to subscription that precluded any sink mechanism" - To which I responded that's what clone grades were, so it was in no way precluded, just judged non-beneficial. And again, no assumption. Just a response to what you said. If you meant to say from ship loss specifically (as opposed to "any"), as addressed you would still be wrong with T3s and further, if you mean something, you should write it rather than make assumptions yourself about your reader. I made none. I just read what was presented.The rest was further exploration and explanation of those points. And still you have yet to address the fully relevant request for benefit regarding this idea aside from suggesting the promotion of SP farms at the expense of all else is positive.
OMG I've forgotten to buy a clone upgrade - no wait they trashed that - They are introducing a type of skill faucet that has no sinks |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6878
|
Posted - 2015.12.17 17:21:42 -
[6319] - Quote
Sounds like someone is really thirsty or wants to suck down on a faucet.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.17 19:47:47 -
[6320] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:That would be precluding the use of my proposed SP loss for Ship loss mechanism. Sorry you wasted a most eloquent response on your false presumption.
The only absolute loss in the trade-able SP exchange is by the buyer through diminishing returns ( I did read about it) The seller is trading his SP for ISK therefore it's not a loss. What presumption is false? You advocated loss of SP on ship loss and I addressed that. You further advocated it in the absence of a change which makes everything in the op irrelevant for that point as none of it yet applies. You also stated the idea in the op creates room for SP loss on ship destruction and I asked you to justify that, and addressed the fact that your prior attempts at justification were flawed. There were no assumptions, everything came directly from what you said: "They are introducing a type of skill faucet that has no sinks. If skills were a consumable item then a system to farm / generate them makes sense. How about introducing a skill loss mechanic by expanding the T3 Strategic Cruiser system to cover all ship losses and maybe even modules fitted on ships." - There is no introduction since SP has always been a faucet with few sinks and the most common of which was removed. We never had any reason since then to believe such sinks were beneficial or necessary. Pointing that out in direct response isn't an assumption."I would consider this an attractive feature even without trade-able skill points" - Which establishes that this mechanism is not simply a response to the proposal in the op but an idea you think has it's own merits. No assumptions there."for all the game we have had a skill point system tied to subscription that precluded any sink mechanism" - To which I responded that's what clone grades were, so it was in no way precluded, just judged non-beneficial. And again, no assumption. Just a response to what you said. If you meant to say from ship loss specifically (as opposed to "any"), as addressed you would still be wrong with T3s and further, if you mean something, you should write it rather than make assumptions yourself about your reader. I made none. I just read what was presented.The rest was further exploration and explanation of those points. And still you have yet to address the fully relevant request for benefit regarding this idea aside from suggesting the promotion of SP farms at the expense of all else is positive. OMG I've forgotten to buy a clone upgrade - no wait they trashed that - They are introducing a type of skill faucet that has no sinks From the very post you quoted: "There is no introduction since SP has always been a faucet with few sinks and the most common of which was removed. We never had any reason since then to believe such sinks were beneficial or necessary...
...that's what clone grades were, so it was in no way precluded, just judged non-beneficial.
...And still you have yet to address the fully relevant request for benefit regarding this idea aside from suggesting the promotion of SP farms at the expense of all else is positive."
That sink has been gone leaving SP a pure faucet for those not losing T3s for a while. Care to actually explain why that should change and what benefit there is rather than repeat the fact we've both acknowledged several times? |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6878
|
Posted - 2015.12.18 00:22:16 -
[6321] - Quote
So suddenly upgrading your clone has become a saint after it's martyrdom?
This thread definitely delivers something extreme.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
18
|
Posted - 2015.12.18 20:50:06 -
[6322] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:That would be precluding the use of my proposed SP loss for Ship loss mechanism. Sorry you wasted a most eloquent response on your false presumption.
The only absolute loss in the trade-able SP exchange is by the buyer through diminishing returns ( I did read about it) The seller is trading his SP for ISK therefore it's not a loss. What presumption is false? You advocated loss of SP on ship loss and I addressed that. You further advocated it in the absence of a change which makes everything in the op irrelevant for that point as none of it yet applies. You also stated the idea in the op creates room for SP loss on ship destruction and I asked you to justify that, and addressed the fact that your prior attempts at justification were flawed. There were no assumptions, everything came directly from what you said: "They are introducing a type of skill faucet that has no sinks. If skills were a consumable item then a system to farm / generate them makes sense. How about introducing a skill loss mechanic by expanding the T3 Strategic Cruiser system to cover all ship losses and maybe even modules fitted on ships." - There is no introduction since SP has always been a faucet with few sinks and the most common of which was removed. We never had any reason since then to believe such sinks were beneficial or necessary. Pointing that out in direct response isn't an assumption."I would consider this an attractive feature even without trade-able skill points" - Which establishes that this mechanism is not simply a response to the proposal in the op but an idea you think has it's own merits. No assumptions there."for all the game we have had a skill point system tied to subscription that precluded any sink mechanism" - To which I responded that's what clone grades were, so it was in no way precluded, just judged non-beneficial. And again, no assumption. Just a response to what you said. If you meant to say from ship loss specifically (as opposed to "any"), as addressed you would still be wrong with T3s and further, if you mean something, you should write it rather than make assumptions yourself about your reader. I made none. I just read what was presented.The rest was further exploration and explanation of those points. And still you have yet to address the fully relevant request for benefit regarding this idea aside from suggesting the promotion of SP farms at the expense of all else is positive. OMG I've forgotten to buy a clone upgrade - no wait they trashed that - They are introducing a type of skill faucet that has no sinks From the very post you quoted: " There is no introduction since SP has always been a faucet with few sinks and the most common of which was removed. We never had any reason since then to believe such sinks were beneficial or necessary...
...that's what clone grades were, so it was in no way precluded, just judged non-beneficial....And still you have yet to address the fully relevant request for benefit regarding this idea aside from suggesting the promotion of SP farms at the expense of all else is positive." That sink has been gone leaving SP a pure faucet for those not losing T3s for a while. Care to actually explain why that should change and what benefit there is rather than repeat the fact we've both acknowledged several times?
Faucet + Sink = Balanced Faucet + One-sided Sink = Unbalanced
The sink on the proposed system is applied to buyers only and made worse because of the diminishing returns system where the balance is actually reversed - Where else in-game does your training actually penalize your returns ?
Why does your lack of skills NOT penalize you ? Why isn't there a balancing mechanic that says I am a toon with under 10million SP only 10% of my extracted Points added
If its going to be treated as a market transaction then - At minimum the sink should drain SP from both sides of the exchange |
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
18
|
Posted - 2015.12.18 21:06:30 -
[6323] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: From the very post you quoted: "[i]There is no introduction since SP has always been a faucet with few sinks and the most common of which was removed. We never had any reason since then to believe such sinks were beneficial or necessary...
and the REASON is they are will no longer be gained only via the Subscription/time/character they will be a marketable item
The whole idea becomes as stupid as introducing a new a ship that can be bought, upgraded but never destroyed except through self destruction. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.18 21:37:36 -
[6324] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Faucet + Sink = Balanced Faucet + One-sided Sink = Unbalanced
The sink on the proposed system is applied to buyers only and made worse because of the diminishing returns system where the balance is actually reversed - Where else in-game does your training actually penalize your returns ?
Why does your lack of skills NOT penalize you ? Why isn't there a balancing mechanic that says I am a toon with under 10million SP only 10% of my extracted Points added
If its going to be treated as a market transaction then - At minimum the sink should drain SP from both sides of the exchange How is it unbalanced? SP is designed to go up over time, not have an equal in:out to enforce beneficial scarcity like isk or materials. SP related capabilities are supposed to go up over time, and there is no specified rate for that since there are no economic considerations for SP as a medium save the suggestion that your idea is terrible because it will make tradable SP exclusive and much more expensive by putting it in constant demand for active combat pilots just to maintain their capabilities.
SP was never meant to meet your definition of "balanced." Why should it start?
And a lack of skills does penalize you every time you engage in an activity to which those skills could be applied, and ironically, the one SP universal SP sink we did have functioned the same way, penalizing greater SP characters. The reason is obvious in this case for why it's set up as it is, to prevent trivial creation of very high SP characters and disincentivize use on them so more supply could be used to meet the demand of the intended newer player/character group.
Basically you're starting from the premise that SP needs sinked or that SP growth needs counterbalanced and going from there, but there is no reason for that to be true. The game as it strands evidences the opposite of what you advocate. You've stated that this inequality between incoming and outgoing SP is a problem, but have yet to explain why, or what benefits come from correcting it yet again.
Hamish McRothimay wrote:and the REASON is they are will no longer be gained only via the Subscription/time/character they will be a marketable item
The whole idea becomes as stupid as introducing a new a ship that can be bought, upgraded but never destroyed except through self destruction At the point where characters become capable of acting in space without ships you'd have a point, but until then the comparison ignores the fact that no amount of SP makes your pod a highly lethal, effective, productive or resilient vessel.
All skills do is allow greater effect over a wider set of tools and abilities which themselves represent the capacity for loss. What you're trying to do is ignore that and double punish loss, I suspect with the intent of advocating a complete break of any SP economy to the point of being non-functional.
All selling SP does is allow characters to procure and use it, which is what SP is designed for, without the need for or benefit from further sinks. SP is designed to accumulate and be used, and as such accumulation and use doesn't need countered by another mechanic. |
JonnyPew
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2015.12.19 01:26:31 -
[6325] - Quote
I support this and want to see it implemented.
EVE Online is my hobby.
http://www.youtube.com/JonnyPew
|
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services The WINGSPAN Logo Alliance
634
|
Posted - 2015.12.19 02:32:57 -
[6326] - Quote
Despite a complete absence of evidence, I'm still convinced this system is part of a broader plan to launch Dust on PC and create a F2P version of EVE.
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6878
|
Posted - 2015.12.19 03:44:18 -
[6327] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:Despite a complete absence of evidence, I'm still convinced this system is part of a broader plan to launch Dust on PC Hmm thought Dust got headshot. Maybe the v2, Legion?
This is good news if it was backed by any evidence...
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
18
|
Posted - 2015.12.19 06:55:57 -
[6328] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:Faucet + Sink = Balanced Faucet + One-sided Sink = Unbalanced
The sink on the proposed system is applied to buyers only and made worse because of the diminishing returns system where the balance is actually reversed - Where else in-game does your training actually penalize your returns ?
Why does your lack of skills NOT penalize you ? Why isn't there a balancing mechanic that says I am a toon with under 10million SP only 10% of my extracted Points added
If its going to be treated as a market transaction then - At minimum the sink should drain SP from both sides of the exchange How is it unbalanced? SP is designed to go up over time, not have an equal in:out to enforce beneficial scarcity like isk or materials. SP related capabilities are supposed to go up over time, and there is no specified rate for that since there are no economic considerations for SP as a medium save the suggestion that your idea is terrible because it will make tradable SP exclusive and much more expensive by putting it in constant demand for active combat pilots just to maintain their capabilities. SP was never meant to meet your definition of "balanced." Why should it start? And a lack of skills does penalize you every time you engage in an activity to which those skills could be applied, and ironically, the one SP universal SP sink we did have functioned the same way, penalizing greater SP characters. The reason is obvious in this case for why it's set up as it is, to prevent trivial creation of very high SP characters and disincentivize use on them so more supply could be used to meet the demand of the intended newer player/character group. Basically you're starting from the premise that SP needs sinked or that SP growth needs counterbalanced and going from there, but there is no reason for that to be true. The game as it strands evidences the opposite of what you advocate. You've stated that this inequality between incoming and outgoing SP is a problem, but have yet to explain why, or what benefits come from correcting it yet again. Hamish McRothimay wrote:and the REASON is they are will no longer be gained only via the Subscription/time/character they will be a marketable item
The whole idea becomes as stupid as introducing a new a ship that can be bought, upgraded but never destroyed except through self destruction At the point where characters become capable of acting in space without ships you'd have a point, but until then the comparison ignores the fact that no amount of SP makes your pod a highly lethal, effective, productive or resilient vessel. All skills do is allow greater effect over a wider set of tools and abilities which themselves represent the capacity for loss. What you're trying to do is ignore that and double punish loss, I suspect with the intent of advocating a complete break of any SP economy to the point of being non-functional. All selling SP does is allow characters to procure and use it, which is what SP is designed for, without the need for or benefit from further sinks. SP is designed to accumulate and be used, and as such accumulation and use doesn't need countered by another mechanic.
"SP was never meant to meet your definition of "balanced." Why should it start?"
"SP were never meant to be bought and sold as a tradable item on the market "so ... now it need balancing" "and because of that .. its time to start!"
""At the point where characters become capable of acting in space without ships you'd have a point"" Station Trading, contracting, Alliance forming, hiring haulers, corporation forming all nice and cozy in my pod but then you are fully aware that I was pointing out that you can buy SP and have no risk of loss thus nothing to do with the tangent you replied with. so its just like buying a ship that can be upgraded and not lost apart from self destructing it |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.19 20:51:02 -
[6329] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Station Trading, contracting, Alliance forming, hiring haulers, corporation forming all nice and cozy in my pod but then you are fully aware that I was pointing out that you can buy SP and have no risk of loss thus nothing to do with the tangent you replied with. so its just like buying a ship that can be upgraded and not lost apart from self destructing it I like how you think pointing out professions that won't be affected by your proposal and are free to gain purchasable SP without fear of loss is somehow more relevant than me pointing out the areas where you are directly double penalizing loss.
Or is this one of those "loss for thee but not for me" proposals by intent?
"SP were never meant to be bought and sold as a tradable item on the market "so ... now it need balancing" "and because of that .. its time to start!" - Already addressed: "SP is designed to go up over time, not have an equal in:out to enforce beneficial scarcity like isk or materials. SP related capabilities are supposed to go up over time, and there is no specified rate for that since there are no economic considerations for SP as a medium save the suggestion that your idea is terrible because it will make tradable SP exclusive and much more expensive by putting it in constant demand for active combat pilots just to maintain their capabilities."
SP was meant to increase character abilities, that's all. And that is what it will continue to do even if trading is introduced. Trading does not interfere with that function, and thus brings no reason to sink SP.
So your search for an actual reason to sink SP continues. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6878
|
Posted - 2015.12.20 00:30:06 -
[6330] - Quote
Your attempts to sink this by page 314 are not looking good, you'd have done better to rehash pages 1 to 20 or so (ie: the rawest kneejerks)
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
|
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
20
|
Posted - 2015.12.21 19:35:45 -
[6331] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Blurb...
SP was meant to increase character abilities, that's all. And that is what it will continue to do even if trading is introduced. Trading does not interfere with that function, and thus brings no reason to sink SP.
More Blurb
Duh! there is a sink built in the diminishing returns sink and because it's TRADING skill points like any other trade made there should be a sink for the seller and the buyer NOT JUST THE BUYER
So we return to the bit where players are penalized for having playing the game longer and acquiring higher skill points |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6880
|
Posted - 2015.12.21 20:45:46 -
[6332] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:and because it's TRADING skill points like any other trade made there should be a sink for the seller and the buyer NOT JUST THE BUYER So when you buy an sp packet it should reduce your skillpoints instead of adding to them. Interesting concept.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.21 21:36:57 -
[6333] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Blurb...
SP was meant to increase character abilities, that's all. And that is what it will continue to do even if trading is introduced. Trading does not interfere with that function, and thus brings no reason to sink SP.
More Blurb
Duh! there is a sink built in it's the "diminishing returns" sink and because it's TRADING skill points like any other trade made there should be a sink for the seller and the buyer NOT JUST THE BUYER and so, we return to the bit where players are penalized for having playing the game longer and acquiring higher skill points Hold on, let me make sure I've got this. You're looking at the reduced SP due to high character SP on the part of a buyer as a sink: Ok fine, we can agree there, and are looking to even that sink for sellers by creating SP penalties for ship loss: This is probably the most ill conceived reasoning I've heard in a while, and considering this thread that's saying a lot.
Think about it for a sec, as a seller with a farming character do you think I'll be undocking that character and putting my product at risk for no reason? No, I probably won't. I'll likely be making my profit generator immune to loss by docking it up permanently. I'll likely determine any compulsion to use the character as anything but an SP farm is an unacceptable risk because realization of that risk is potentially a nice chunk from my product gone.
And still the act of selling sinks nothing. But those sales will surely happen more often and for more isk to buyers who wouldn't otherwise even participate with TSP.
You talk of penalties to older players with TSP, but introduce a system that has those players paying up to 10x or more of what a newer player has to in TSP just to recover from a loss between the ship loss SP penalty you propose, diminishing returns on TSP being used to recover, and your prior idea of excluding mods/ships that newer players use.
And all this does is help the buyer because it doesn't sink anything from them. But it does increase demand. It just makes parking in Jita 4-4 and doing nothing but selling SP over time that much more viable and profitable.
So instead of the system "penalizing players for being here longer" you'd rather it be "penalizing players for being here, those who were here longer even moreso." Great improvement. Well thought out. |
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
20
|
Posted - 2015.12.21 22:04:32 -
[6334] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:and because it's TRADING skill points like any other trade made there should be a sink for the seller and the buyer NOT JUST THE BUYER So when you buy an sp packet it should reduce your skillpoints instead of adding to them. Interesting concept.
Did you just troll me? I mean diminishing returns should be applied on both extraction and injection. If a 50mill character has a 20% loss from a 500k sp packet injection then another 50mill character should have had to extract 600k to make that 500k sp packet.
These extractors originate and are paid for outside of the game with real money just like PLEX. Why should I be able to sell $15 worth of SP without losing any of the SP as Tax ? I use $$ because ISK is in-game fiat money that cannot be equated to cash whereas SP have worth as we pay about $14.95 for 1.5 million of them. |
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
20
|
Posted - 2015.12.21 22:07:04 -
[6335] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Blurb
Edit: Speaking conceptually here there is never any "sink" for the sale of any good sold for the seller of that item save the fact that that seller no longer has the item after the sale (tax/fees aside). Aside from how poorly this idea functions for any reason you've given, the idea of a seller "sink" aside from parting with the stock is in itself fundamentally flawed.
Removing product from the buyer, which is what your idea does (effectively double sinking from older player buyers no less with the diminishing returns along side it), doesn't "sink" anything from the seller that he isn't already trying to part with on the terms he willing to do so, else he wouldn't be a seller. And further that seller isn't parting with anything differently with or without your idea, once again making it clearly terrible at achieving it's stated goal.
Seller, selling goods sold has brokers fees Buyer buying said goods has Sales tax
Not with SP and we are not talking isk or price we are talking SP sinks |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6880
|
Posted - 2015.12.21 22:12:01 -
[6336] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:These extractors originate and are paid for outside of the game with real money just like PLEX. Why should I be able to sell $15 worth of SP without losing any of the SP as Tax ? I use $$ because ISK is in-game fiat money that cannot be equated to cash whereas SP have worth as we pay about $14.95 for 1.5 million of them. I take that as plex originate and are paid for outside of the game with real money just like sp extractors, they also don't have an isk value as isk is in-game fiat currency? Or the SP when I use it to train I guess....
Similarly when I buy an sp extractor on the in-game market paying someone isk for it, I gained some $$$ value in return for in-game fiat money that cannot be equated to cash?
Actually good point, why should I be able to sell $14.95 worth of plex without losing any of the plex as tax? I use $$ because ISK is in-game fiat money that cannot be equated to cash whereas plex have worth as we pay about $14.95 for 1 of them
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
20
|
Posted - 2015.12.21 22:23:44 -
[6337] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:These extractors originate and are paid for outside of the game with real money just like PLEX. Why should I be able to sell $15 worth of SP without losing any of the SP as Tax ? I use $$ because ISK is in-game fiat money that cannot be equated to cash whereas SP have worth as we pay about $14.95 for 1.5 million of them. I take that as plex originate and are paid for outside of the game with real money just like sp extractors, they also don't have an isk value as isk is in-game fiat currency? Or the SP when I use it to train I guess.... Similarly when I buy an sp extractor on the in-game market paying someone isk for it, I gained some $$$ value in return for in-game fiat money that cannot be equated to cash? Actually good point, why should I be able to sell $14.95 worth of plex without losing any of the plex as tax? I use $$ because ISK is in-game fiat money that cannot be equated to cash whereas plex have worth as we pay about $14.95 for 1 of them
So PLEX are converted to ISK with both Brokers fees & sales tax, Yet when Extractors are converted to SP with only the injector is paying 'SP Tax' |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.22 00:03:17 -
[6338] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote: Seller, selling goods sold has brokers fees Buyer buying said goods has Sales tax
Not with SP
Not true, With SP on the market tax and broker fees are intact since the market builds in those functions. What you're failing to note most of all though is that the tax is not paid in the good transferred, but the currency used for the exchange. By this same rule SP would never be taxed by removing SP, but by sinking isk, the currency used for the exchange.
Hamish McRothimay wrote:There is great confusion here. You have to understand that the only things with value in this equation are Subscription Monies and because its used in their creation Skill Points. Buyers & sellers must both be taxed on the transaction to make an effective sink but because ISK is just a fiat currency the tax must be in Skill Points (which are actually worth something). This doesn't make sense. Subscription money is paid to introduce SP, that much is true. Beyond that though you're: a) mistaking the diminishing returns for a tax (they aren't, rather their a disincentive to use the product for those that already have an abundance of it), b) proposing that this tax needs expanded to the seller, which can't be true because as addressed there is no actual tax to begin with, c) Thinking that SP loss on ship destruction actually accomplishes something of a tax on the seller when it demonstrably doesn't. It just consumes the buyers product, d) Trying in error to separate an in game trade from the currency used for those trades, isk, when there is no supporting reason to do so even for real money originating items (see PLEX and all AUR items). SP and RL cash can't be the only things of value unless the trade is purely RMT. Even if they were that still provides no reason to sink a resource designed to be accumulated without limit beyond the mechanically enforced upper capacity to do so.
Your reason for thinking SP needs sinked is actually making less sense and your method still taxes buyers and the unaffiliated while NOT taxing sellers. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1847
|
Posted - 2015.12.22 00:06:30 -
[6339] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:So PLEX are converted to ISK with both Brokers fees & sales tax, Yet when Extractors are converted to SP with only the injector is paying 'SP Tax'
To complicate things further. Converting the extractor to SP should really have NO Tax because converting a PLEX into something of worth outside the game like game-time has no Tax. There is no "SP tax" much like there is no time tax for exchanging PLEX. Also your idea does nothing to create a tax for extracting. That is done without loss of any kind for the seller even with your idea of SP loss on ship destruction. |
Saredan
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.22 14:12:26 -
[6340] - Quote
i think you can do it a bit different maybe :
make few packs : 1) services : token 1 : that provide 5m sp unallocated when consumed token 2 : provide 10 m sp unallocated , but only possible to consume it when the character is just born with the start base SP . only one token per newly created character and one possible to use by character only .
so new players can catch older player in 1 year : if they make 18 m sp training in one year this do 28 m sp (with the 10 m sp token), providing a good character in one year old time .
making full skill sells can lead to abusive things (IMO)
|
|
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2015.12.22 18:20:00 -
[6341] - Quote
Saredan wrote:
making full skill sells can lead to abusive things (IMO)
If you were a bit more specific about the "abusive" part we could quickly demonstrate why your opinion bears little weight in the future of TSP.
|
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1927
|
Posted - 2015.12.22 19:26:09 -
[6342] - Quote
It's still the same clowns using circular reasoning, personal agendas and whatnot. I'd like for CCP to man up and tell us what they're going to do because this indecisiveness and media silence is harking back to Incarnage levels of stupidity.
I want to make my choice of main MMO before the year's end, thanks. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6884
|
Posted - 2015.12.22 20:58:21 -
[6343] - Quote
I wouldn't claim ccp is being indecisive. They made a thread and then walked away.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Saredan
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.22 21:35:08 -
[6344] - Quote
i think my solution is the best .
i explain why :
1 : the game is now older than before 2 : by making my suggestions new players can be competitive enough with older players in approximatively one year (which is big and low depending on where you see the thing) . 3 : this will make new players wanting to push farther in the long time and invest on their character . 4 : this will make many new players come into the game .the game will raise in population and it's good for everyone and + the economy . 5 : i suggest making 5 M sp token (only for new char and usable only one time) (only one token so the player need to choose between the 5 M SP one or the 10 m SP one) (5M sp starting token 7euros49 , 10M SP starting token14.99 euros .)
so after the first year of play if the char is trained all year he will got 18m + 10 sp = 28 m SP which is fair for a one year character . the second year he will have 46m Sp which is very nice but two years of playing the game is "investing " time into the game in my opinion and the reward is appropriate and will make the character say to himself : "i have a high SP character " and he will enjoy the situation and the game .
i think this solution is indeed a "long term" plan and reward new players
to not penalize players old less than one year (and to "say thanks" to having subscribed for this perdio of time) a thing that can be maked is making the 5M sp token available for them . so this will be 18m sp +5 m sp (from token)for a year trained character which is equal to = 23 m SP which is acceptable . maybe to ctach the few SP missing between the two cases . the "less than one year old" character can receive a bonus of + 200 % exp gain for a month (the character need to be active in order to activate it)
the gap between 23m sp and 28msp will be reached in 1 month and everyone will be happy ^^. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
497
|
Posted - 2015.12.23 09:53:21 -
[6345] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:It's still the same clowns using circular reasoning, personal agendas and whatnot. I'd like for CCP to man up and tell us what they're going to do because this indecisiveness and media silence is harking back to Incarnage levels of stupidity.
I want to make my choice of main MMO before the year's end, thanks. Gregor Parud. Ron Swanson of EvE.
A little peak what is comming would be great, maybe after x-mas. So thread will hit 600 pages till new year eve.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
"Here in the garden of the arcane delights dark shadows overwhelm us and and we become blind..."
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3097
|
Posted - 2015.12.23 19:12:43 -
[6346] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:I wouldn't claim ccp is being indecisive. They made a thread and then walked away.
The 'decision' they made was to ignore this thread.
Perhaps they have found an even better way to bilk more money off players?
This is not a signature.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6890
|
Posted - 2015.12.23 20:25:36 -
[6347] - Quote
Imagine, "SP injection fatigue" or "get podded too soon after injeccting SP and you lose some of it" etc etc
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2015.12.24 03:18:56 -
[6348] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Imagine, "SP injection fatigue" or "get podded too soon after injeccting SP and you lose some of it" etc etc
While I think the current proposal is perfect, I could see some merit in SP injected to be unstable and thus if you get poded within the average time it takes to learn the same amount of SP you are going to loose a percentage that is decreasing with time.
Not a bad idea for a goon....
Edit: but only if the aurum is disconnected from the transactions and it's all isk |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6891
|
Posted - 2015.12.24 03:25:10 -
[6349] - Quote
I definitely like encouraging people (especially newbies) to just stay docked.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
989
|
Posted - 2015.12.24 12:26:29 -
[6350] - Quote
Saredan wrote:i think my solution is the best .
i explain why :
1 : the game is now older than before 2 : by making my suggestions new players can be competitive enough with older players in approximatively one year (which is big and low depending on where you see the thing) . 3 : this will make new players wanting to push farther in the long time and invest on their character . 4 : this will make many new players come into the game .the game will raise in population and it's good for everyone and + the economy . 5 : i suggest making 5 M sp token (only for new char and usable only one time) (only one token so the player need to choose between the 5 M SP one or the 10 m SP one) (5M sp starting token 7euros49 , 10M SP starting token14.99 euros .)
so after the first year of play if the char is trained all year he will got 18m + 10 sp = 28 m SP which is fair for a one year character . the second year he will have 46m Sp which is very nice but two years of playing the game is "investing " time into the game in my opinion and the reward is appropriate and will make the character say to himself : "i have a high SP character " and he will enjoy the situation and the game .
i think this solution is indeed a "long term" plan and reward new players
to not penalize players old less than one year (and to "say thanks" to having subscribed for this perdio of time) a thing that can be maked is making the 5M sp token available for them . so this will be 18m sp +5 m sp (from token)for a year trained character which is equal to = 23 m SP which is acceptable . maybe to ctach the few SP missing between the two cases . the "less than one year old" character can receive a bonus of + 200 % exp gain for a month (the character need to be active in order to activate it)
the gap between 23m sp and 28msp will be reached in 1 month and everyone will be happy ^^. The game is now even older than when you made this post. |
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
989
|
Posted - 2015.12.24 12:27:40 -
[6351] - Quote
Wow, the game is now even older. |
Rihannsu78
United Warriors The Romulans
0
|
Posted - 2015.12.24 13:04:19 -
[6352] - Quote
As a recently returned player I like the idea and feel the positives outweight the negatives. Hope CCP goes forward with it. |
Soltys
40
|
Posted - 2015.12.26 23:59:16 -
[6353] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:It's still the same clowns using circular reasoning, personal agendas and whatnot. I'd like for CCP to man up and tell us what they're going to do because this indecisiveness and media silence is harking back to Incarnage levels of stupidity.
Yea, pretty much this. Regadless of what side of the fence each of us stands at.
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6896
|
Posted - 2015.12.27 02:18:24 -
[6354] - Quote
Soltys wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:It's still the same clowns using circular reasoning, personal agendas and whatnot.
I'd like for CCP to man up and tell us what they're going to do because this indecisiveness and media silence is harking back to Incarnage levels of stupidity. Yea, pretty much this. Regadless of what side of the fence each of us stands at. Oh snap, you mean this whole thread is full of clowns?
Or just that everyone wants CCP to give details (because we're clowns and are sure they will do what we wanted, for sure, because we're super convincing clowns)?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Soltys
40
|
Posted - 2015.12.27 11:19:50 -
[6355] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Soltys wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:It's still the same clowns using circular reasoning, personal agendas and whatnot.
I'd like for CCP to man up and tell us what they're going to do because this indecisiveness and media silence is harking back to Incarnage levels of stupidity. Yea, pretty much this. Regadless of what side of the fence each of us stands at. Oh snap, you mean this whole thread is full of clowns? Or just that everyone wants CCP to give details (because we're clowns and are sure they will do what we wanted, for sure, because we're super convincing clowns)?
6000+ replies in this thread (which has been looped for quite a while) warrants some reply I'd hope. Whether honest or not.
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6899
|
Posted - 2015.12.27 19:56:04 -
[6356] - Quote
Soltys wrote:6000+ replies in this thread (which has been looped for quite a while) warrants some reply I'd hope. Whether honest or not. Maybe they can copy again the post they made, which would fit in perfectly with all the unproductive repetition in the thread.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Kurosaki Rukia
Abysmal Gentlemen We Didn't Mean It
48
|
Posted - 2015.12.28 17:10:12 -
[6357] - Quote
So rather than putting time and effort into improving the character bazaar, you just casually use the bazaar as a thinly veiled excuse to announce; that your contempt of your loyal customers has no bounds. Good job CCP. |
Kurosaki Rukia
Abysmal Gentlemen We Didn't Mean It
48
|
Posted - 2015.12.28 18:07:13 -
[6358] - Quote
Max Muni wrote:This is a MUST feature for the long term health of the game.
I know many Vets feel it's unfair since they had to wait to skill up to where they are, but the big issue is new player retention and not old player rewards. Old players are constantly being rewarded with new advanced ships that new players can't fly effectively.
New advanced ships reward me how, exactly? I can fly almost every subcap in the game, and yet spend 99% of my time in an algos, vexor or navy vexor. Tech 1 ships are like the meat and potatoes of eve, and "new advanced ships" are like cake. They give a lot of cake, but never any meat and potatoes. And one cannot live on cake alone.
Once they start adding tech 1 ships regularly I will consider myself to be getting "rewarded". |
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
21
|
Posted - 2015.12.28 20:53:08 -
[6359] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:Despite a complete absence of evidence, I'm still convinced this system is part of a broader plan to launch Dust on PC and create a F2P version of EVE.
Despite a complete absence of evidence, I'm still convinced this system is part of a broader plan to allow quick training of new drones for carrier fighter wings prior the launch and integration of Valkyrie in to EVE |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6901
|
Posted - 2015.12.29 00:11:40 -
[6360] - Quote
Kurosaki Rukia wrote:Max Muni wrote:This is a MUST feature for the long term health of the game.
I know many Vets feel it's unfair since they had to wait to skill up to where they are, but the big issue is new player retention and not old player rewards. Old players are constantly being rewarded with new advanced ships that new players can't fly effectively.
New advanced ships reward me how, exactly? I can fly almost every subcap in the game, and yet spend 99% of my time in an algos, vexor or navy vexor. Tech 1 ships are like the meat and potatoes of eve, and "new advanced ships" are like cake. They give a lot of cake, but never any meat and potatoes. And one cannot live on cake alone. Once they start adding tech 1 ships regularly I will consider myself to be getting "rewarded". Ok, so that's 1 vet.
... how many more to go?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
218
|
Posted - 2015.12.29 16:15:17 -
[6361] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:More stuff
Sorry for late reply, I was on holidays and forgot this thread for a while.
a) I agree that average char could afford 2 of them. Pity that average char has above 50mil sp and will probably choose not to do it due to diminishing returns and bad ROI.
If we are talking about the list adding one important part that you missed (intentionally or not does not matter) is quite on subject. Let me remind you of the both original posts we did: You - a) TSP will aid in speeding training for those that desire it; me: a) Incorrect, TSP will aid in speed training those who desire and can afford it. So I have fixed that statement with pointing out on the cost
Forgetting something so influential is either intentional misguidance of readers or lack of adequate knowledge. In both cases, it is wrong.
b) Using TSP for progress is not a long term solution. And eve is all about long term. So if someone is not satisfied with regular sp/hour rate he will sooner or later go and purchase the char and your whole point is void.
Using couple of TSP to stay identified with your main char is lol point as no one will go and purchase char with 1-2mil sp more.
And again, char with higher sp does not have to be main char. People identify to the chars they want, if they want. TSP will not affect their personal play style and affinities in any way.
e) Diminishing returns start after ~2 months of play, who said they need to be maxed out? Never mind, I will skip the non important part and focus on your answer: "Simple, it's another benefit player orgs can offer to distinguish themselves and compete for members or attract the unrecruited, possibly placing more players in those orgs vs solo or or in weak orgs which data suggests is better for retention."
How can they distinguish with something which is available for the everyone on the market? Corps can distinguish just by the amount of "recruitment bonus" they give out, all ingame items are available for everyone so they can give it or recruits can choose them. Value they get remains the same, ie they would get the same value regardless if TSP were there or not (400mil isk in cash, or ships and equip or minerals or TSP, what is the difference?)
g) It is not a stalemate as we definitely know that TSP price is related to plex price no matter that we cannot know the exact price currently. As long as it is directly related to plex it is going to keep increasing as plex prices are going to increase.
h) It does not matter what corp offers as long as it is market item and of course people want free stuff all the time.But if they want shineys they will sell tsp and buy what they want. Regardless of that, you have to look at ROI. Time and money. Players need ~1 week of training to get amount of sp in TSP. How much time they need to earn isk for ships and equipment? Depending on activity I agree, but majority would surely need more time to earn isk equivalent. Therefore I am quite sure they would go for easier way, sp is going to come anyway, without any effort and they get free isk instead of spending hours to make it.
You cannot justify it by your own choice. I was already a billionaire when I bought my first battleship. Because I wanted to have good sp background for good efficiency, before getting in so expensive ship. Do you know how funny it was for my corp mates, the richest guy they know is flying in blackbird all the time? Yet, I do not know anyone else who did it that way, everyone rushed for bigger stuff...
m) You have the basics of economy wrong. Plex suply is going down and prices are going up already. With even more demand prices will increase even more. Desire for isk will be fulfilled with the same amount of cash spent as you will get more isk for each plex. And plexes going up is something you can 100% sure of.
n) I am not broadening. I have learned that I have to talk with you in very clear way or you will digress it. To be honest I am not quite sure what is unclear here. Young chars can have bad reputation very rarely, ie if someone is crazy enough to trust them and then they play it. And that probably will not be something what will make a lot of sound as the scammed person would be too shy to admit his stupidity. So new players who want to buy a bit advanced chars cannot really finish purchasing them as there was no real public for the issue which "harmed the reputation". And even if it was such a case (that young char has bad rep), they can easily prevent that by simple googling or using search forums option.
In purchases of higher sp chars they can prevent it in the same way. Just simple searching. They do not need TSP for that. Nor for advancing to that sp level. Especially since TSP is not effective to getting there due to cost and diminishing returns.
And as someone mentioned, TSP is actually nice way to reprocess bad reputation chars :)
I am not broadening. If you had read my original posts you would see them stated hundreds of pages ago. If you cannot provide any counter argument for them its fine, I am sure you would if you had any. But calling them deflection is lame after asking for them multiple times :)
To sum it up. Your list, even though mostly wrong in sense of benefits for bigger chunk of the player base, does have a couple of points which do benefit minor part of player base, so "big" that it could be called statistical error I`d have to say. On the other side beside already mentioned side effects on customer - service provide relation which you cannot counter (nor anyone else since those are business axioms based on decades of research and practice) we can for sure expect plex prices going up. To what extent? We cannot know now but it will surely affect a lot of players who choose this way for funding their accounts. How many will be forced to quit? We will see...
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
218
|
Posted - 2015.12.29 16:22:24 -
[6362] - Quote
One more potential side effect - Based on CCP official statement : The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.
I was misguided by this and kept spending money on they game as I believed in this. Now I feel scammed. Enough material for reimbursement. Delete my chars and reimburse me subscriptions money for past 5-6 years for all my accounts...or law suit?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1849
|
Posted - 2015.12.29 22:23:36 -
[6363] - Quote
a) I'd like to see the information suggesting that the average character is above 50mill. I'm certainly not saying it doesn't exist, but to my recollection I haven't seen it. For my part as a 6 year vet I have as many characters above as below the 50 mill mark. If your meaning is to say that there are few players limited to only < 50mill characters that's another story.
As far as what sub 50m SP characters can earn, if you think that as limited as you seem to you aren't looking for opportunities very effectively. That's why TSP will be available, because the group who "can" afford them is as wide as the individual players involved want it to be. I can't "afford" a JF right now, but not because my earning capacity can't get it, but rather because I'm not anywhere near peaking that capacity, and that peak still isn't that high. Much lower SP players are getting the same as my peak isk/hour given the means I use (hint: new player friendly incursion groups exist).
b) Using TSP for progress is a long term solution because progress can't be negated. Continuing to inject TSP may not be, but the SP gained from it puts you permanently ahead of your time based training and further expands the abilities of the character in an equally permanent way now. That you can't continue doing so at the same rate is irrelevant since there is no need or ability to expand infinitely offered by any alternatives.
e) Diminishing returns start after ~2 months of play, who said they need to be maxed out? - No one, but if you're going to make complaints about efficiencies lets be realistic about their scaling and recognize that 2+ years of SP with an 80% ROI is pretty good.
How can they distinguish with something which is available for the everyone on the market? - The same way SRP for ships available to everyone on the market distinguishes corps now. Corps are already distinguished by their willingness and capacity to reduce the need for effort from their members to obtain items already available on the market by reducing or eliminating the need for those members to fund those assets or replacements themselves.
g) No, we know that a portion, specifically the cost of the extractor, is linked to PLEX, but we don't know the vision for extractor cost and whether or not it's negligible or significant. Beyond that we've guessed the cost for the SP in the TSP would follow PLEX, but have no specific reason to believe it will play out that way.
h) I'm sorry what is the issue again? I missed where people selling TSP was an issue we needed to be concerned about. Rather I'm pretty sure the system is only functional when people are willing to trade their SP for isk, so pointing out that people will only deserves the response "All according to plan."
And regarding my situation, I intentionally linked that to an observation by CCP regarding training practices which were viewed as unhealthy. Namely putting the most relevant training aside for greater efficiency. The point being that SP was the greater shiny thing in that instance, because of near permanence (which has since been enhanced) and greater use. Some won't feel that way, but those others farming SP for isk are depending on those that will.
m) When you start with the assumption of PLEX going up it's sure to work that way. You're predicating you position upon the idea that PLEX will first go up enough to provide significant change to the amount you need to spend in cash for a certain isk value in game. There's no indication that the isk need won't match pace keeping PLEX flowing into the game.
n) No, you are broadening. I reposted the original point from the list to demonstrate the fact that your tangent had shifted away from any relevance to it. The potential losses from butthurt purists has no connection to the idea of TSP reducing the appeal of reputationally tainted characters to new players on the Bazaar. At the time of that statement that was a large part of your opposition after I made the mistake of falling into your nebulous "but the side effects" appeal.
Beyond that, there is a difference between a genuinely new unknown and a known corp thief or awoxer. The former you take a risk on while limiting your potential losses if you are a recruiter looking for new players, the latter you have a specific negative expectation of and as such don't recruit at all. Your failure to appreciate the distinction is telling.
Further when we're talking about the buyers of these characters who would be effected most by their reputations, we're talking about the players who are the least knowledgeable about finding out specific character histories or even the full potential effects of reputation.
That TSP is another way of reprocessing these characters is actually proof of the point. These characters are no longer being sold when such behavior becomes prevalent, preventing their reputaional harms from being transitioned. And as stated the mechanism for enabling this is TSP. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1849
|
Posted - 2015.12.29 22:26:37 -
[6364] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:One more potential side effect - Based on CCP official statement : The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.
I was misguided by this and kept spending money on they game as I believed in this. Now I feel scammed. Enough material for reimbursement. Delete my chars and reimburse me subscriptions money for past 5-6 years for all my accounts...or law suit?
Man, if only that were actually being violated and SP wasn't still only coming from sub time invested in the game. You might actually have had a point on the level of principle.
But even so, unless you actually had a tie in to the EULA or TOS, you'd be wasting the time of everyone involved pursuing it for all it's frivolousness. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6903
|
Posted - 2015.12.30 04:44:42 -
[6365] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:One more potential side effect - Based on CCP official statement : The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.
I was misguided by this and kept spending money on they game as I believed in this. Now I feel scammed. Enough material for reimbursement. Delete my chars and reimburse me subscriptions money for past 5-6 years for all my accounts...or law suit?
Man, if only that were actually being violated and SP wasn't still only coming from sub time invested in the game. You might actually have had a point on the level of principle. But even so, unless you actually had a tie in to the EULA or TOS, you'd be wasting the time of everyone involved pursuing it for all it's frivolousness. No encourage them to do it, they might learn something interesting.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
545
|
Posted - 2015.12.30 07:01:29 -
[6366] - Quote
Not that CCP is still reading this thread, but this would be a great improvement over the current character bazaar. New(er) players would benefit in being able to "catch up" to the current meta. Higher sp characters still retain a huge advantage being that it would be prohibitively expensive to craft your own 80+m skillpoint character- whereas right now you can just purchase one from the character bazaar. Also, it allows for higher sp characters to get rid of those wasted mining skills they researched when they first started. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
4919
|
Posted - 2015.12.31 13:44:05 -
[6367] - Quote
Any update or is this idea DOA?
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6904
|
Posted - 2016.01.01 00:18:04 -
[6368] - Quote
I think it'll be Alive on Arrival. Suddenly.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1853
|
Posted - 2016.01.01 00:37:03 -
[6369] - Quote
I'll guess fanfest announcement at the latest for new info. I'd love to be wrong and we got word either way sooner. |
Asura Vajrarupa
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
62
|
Posted - 2016.01.01 04:40:15 -
[6370] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I'll guess fanfest announcement at the latest for new info. I'd love to be wrong and we got word either way sooner.
Same here, but knowing the CCP, it will probably be literally months.
Ignorance is the cause of suffering.
|
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Deornoth Drake
Vandeo
53
|
Posted - 2016.01.02 17:44:02 -
[6371] - Quote
Nearly forgot to post something in this channel:
Transferring skills from one character to another sounds ok.
However, I would like to optimize myself. E.g. I trained for carriers but but don't fly them.
Basically, transfer the skill points from skill A to skill B, which is currently in training. I.e. you could double up the training speed.
E.g. I trained for dreadnought but would like to remove that. I could use those skill points to double the training speed.
And yes this is 1:1, no skill points lost. Why? Because we paid for those skill points already and we pay for the transfer from one skill to another as well. |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2016.01.02 20:31:43 -
[6372] - Quote
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf
Microtransactions and 'monocle-gate'
The development difficulties were only part of the Incarna problem. According to sources, CCP management had decided to introduce microtransactions, unbeknownst to most of the rank and file, charging real money for cosmetic items with which to customise character avatars. This is a familiar feature in online games, but usually a new outfit for a player character will cost $15-20. CCP decided to charge much more. The most notorious example was a monocle costing $70. The price tag infuriated fans kick-starting a major pricing controversy that would go on to become known as Monocle-gate.
The CEO had members of the fiction writing team put the apology together - he was either so out of touch, so arrogant, that he couldnGÇÖt find the words himself
Eventually CEO Hilmar Veigar P+¬tursson issued an apology to the players. But even this short appeasement wasnGÇÖt what it seemed; according to Blood, Petursson didnGÇÖt actually write it.
GÇ£He had members of our storyline team GÇô a group responsible for writing in-game content and fiction GÇô put it together,GÇ¥ he says. GÇ£He was either so out of touch, so arrogant, or perhaps both, that he couldnGÇÖt find the words to say himself. They bailed him out big time.GÇ¥
can't believe for the passed weeks that none of the dev team at CCP have not even replyed to this dev blog what so ever, would be nice to have a message or a post regarding this dev blog as we are your paying customers.
just looks kinda of bad to the paying player base that if ccp can not be bothered to reply to its loyal paying customers, who are paying a sub each month, without a paying customers would put ccp out of business |
Onslaughtor
Reikoku Pandemic Legion
161
|
Posted - 2016.01.04 09:57:32 -
[6373] - Quote
I personal feel this would really help everyone in the system. Sp is often treated sacredly but is really only something that holds back player progress, not enhances it. The one error I find in this whole system actually has to do less with the monetization of it and more with how that monetization is done. I have spent a bit on plex and aurum recently and its actually a grinding experience for a customer. Spending money should feel good, fast, and simple. For one the price of plex and I say subscriptions, might need reassessing as that forms the single point for all other costs in eve, and at least based on the average american wage, might be a bit too high when you consider some of the other expenses you want players to buy into. Idealy you want the subscription to feel cheapish and get the customer on buying lots of little things. This is how I personally feel about this of course but as someone who spends money on their games and on eve it's what I have noticed. Another thing is how much plex is in the game. It's known that there are people with thousands of plex just storing them and helping build up a false scarcity. While the exact numbers is up to debate it definitely adds volatility to the people who only play off plex. If the numbers of plex paying players is too high then that kind of volatility could disrupt the player ecosystem. While some of the data needed to show this could be a case is missing from player hands it's something to be mindful of. One solution could be adding some kind of lock or decay function to plex where they only last in tradeable form for a year or so. This keeps the market in a more natural flux with large room for overhead and forces people to spend.
Anyway. It's a good idea. Balancing cost and actually mechanics will be a test but the idea and core concept solves a lot of problems in one stroke.
Also some feedback at some point would be nice :D I have a few friends who might actually play if this was implemented. |
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
28
|
Posted - 2016.01.04 16:28:36 -
[6374] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:One more potential side effect - Based on CCP official statement : The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.
I was misguided by this and kept spending money on they game as I believed in this. Now I feel scammed. Enough material for reimbursement. Delete my chars and reimburse me subscriptions money for past 5-6 years for all my accounts...or law suit?
Man, if only that were actually being violated and SP wasn't still only coming from sub time invested in the game. You might actually have had a point on the level of principle. But even so, unless you actually had a tie in to the EULA or TOS, you'd be wasting the time of everyone involved pursuing it for all it's frivolousness.
Key word here is "YOU" and because it says "YOU" we see that CCPZulu is talking about the monetary investment of an individual, So yes the money invested by an individual in SP will give them an unfair advantage over someone who invests just time using monthy subs or plex.
It's pretty obvious really, if I can afford to buy SP with cash and you can't my money buys an advantage |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1853
|
Posted - 2016.01.04 23:18:19 -
[6375] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:One more potential side effect - Based on CCP official statement : The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.
I was misguided by this and kept spending money on they game as I believed in this. Now I feel scammed. Enough material for reimbursement. Delete my chars and reimburse me subscriptions money for past 5-6 years for all my accounts...or law suit?
Man, if only that were actually being violated and SP wasn't still only coming from sub time invested in the game. You might actually have had a point on the level of principle. But even so, unless you actually had a tie in to the EULA or TOS, you'd be wasting the time of everyone involved pursuing it for all it's frivolousness. Key word here is "YOU" and because it says "YOU" we see that CCPZulu is talking about the monetary investment of an individual, So yes the money invested by an individual in SP will give them an unfair advantage over someone who invests just time using monthy subs or plex. It's pretty obvious really, if I can afford to buy SP with cash and you can't my money buys an advantage The basis of your objection is false. The introduction of PLEX into the game makes the entire system one that can be taken advantage of at any point by any player with only in game isk.
Because PLEX exists in game to be bought with isk every aspect of the system is open to any player by actually investing time in game. Without the use of any cash. And that means actually investing time in the game, not just being subbed.
Further, PLEX has existed as a bypass for time where isk is concerned since it's inception. Basically if you want to cling to that line under that interpretation you're only able to do so by ignoring the state of the game for years. If the basis of an objection is intentional ignorance of the games mechanics it's not a very good argument.
Edit: Further, some of us are already investing money in an advantage as is. Hint: How much utility can an extra account potentially bring? Does CCP encourage extra accounts? Do those accounts incur extra cost that someone must bear? |
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
31
|
Posted - 2016.01.05 18:18:49 -
[6376] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:One more potential side effect - Based on CCP official statement : The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.
I was misguided by this and kept spending money on they game as I believed in this. Now I feel scammed. Enough material for reimbursement. Delete my chars and reimburse me subscriptions money for past 5-6 years for all my accounts...or law suit?
Man, if only that were actually being violated and SP wasn't still only coming from sub time invested in the game. You might actually have had a point on the level of principle. But even so, unless you actually had a tie in to the EULA or TOS, you'd be wasting the time of everyone involved pursuing it for all it's frivolousness. Key word here is "YOU" and because it says "YOU" we see that CCPZulu is talking about the monetary investment of an individual, So yes the money invested by an individual in SP will give them an unfair advantage over someone who invests just time using monthy subs or plex. It's pretty obvious really, if I can afford to buy SP with cash and you can't my money buys an advantage The basis of your objection is false. The introduction of PLEX into the game makes the entire system one that can be taken advantage of at any point by any player with only in game isk. Because PLEX exists in game to be bought with isk every aspect of the system is open to any player by actually investing time in game. Without the use of any cash. And that means actually investing time in the game, not just being subbed. Further, PLEX has existed as a bypass for time where isk is concerned since it's inception. Basically if you want to cling to that line under that interpretation you're only able to do so by ignoring the state of the game for years. If the basis of an objection is intentional ignorance of the games mechanics it's not a very good argument. Edit: Further, some of us are already investing money in an advantage as is. Hint: How much utility can an extra account potentially bring? Does CCP encourage extra accounts? Do those accounts incur extra cost that someone must bear?
and circle the argument back to the point where once again we have to point out that ISK is a fiat in-game currency that cannot be converted into real money but SP are gained through individuals time paid for by subscription and real money
But do we really have to start over, cycling though the same old argument/counter argument again and again.
The point is I think it's a crap idea and you think it's wonderful.
CCP has to decide how many people it will please & how many it will **** off, Then hope that if they emulate the mico-transaction culture of other MMO's how much the increased player churn rate will affect the game and it's economy.
Also, as Eve is a sandbox model, not a progression model, CCP should also look into creating an "End Game" level for player's to reach because at present it does not have one. Any MMO worth its salt utilizing the "End Game" world model (pay to reach level 100 to be allowed to fight with all the other level 100s) has plenty of high end PVE content to buy, in fact it is pretty much a prerequisite of progression based MMO's.
Which sucks for the Eve as we know it because its a sandbox not a progression based MMO
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.05 22:06:57 -
[6377] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:and circle the argument back to the point where once again we have to point out that ISK is a fiat in-game currency that cannot be converted into real money but SP are gained through individuals time paid for by subscription and real money Which is fully irrelevant for any argument regarding the statement " The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time." An in game advantage need have no fiat to RL (which is also a fiat currency, so I'm not even sure what the point is here) conversion to be an in game advantage.
Hamish McRothimay wrote:But do we really have to start over, cycling though the same old argument/counter argument again and again. We wouldn't if you would stop clinging to irrelevant or wholly untrue concepts as if they made a relevant point here. Especially when the existence of PLEX, a commodity with a real currency price point, already breaks every precept you're trying to cling to with that argument.
Hamish McRothimay wrote:The point is I think it's a crap idea and you think it's wonderful. I think it's a good idea because it's a good idea. Your only objections stem from a series of false notions, be they the concept of winning with SP, the ability to buy advantages, and appeals to treat SP as a real currency when it's a virtual concept created by CCP with no such inherent equivalency.
Hamish McRothimay wrote:CCP has to decide how many people it will please & how many it will **** off, Then hope that if they emulate the mico-transaction culture of other MMO's how much the increased player churn rate will affect the game and it's economy.
Also, as Eve is a sandbox model, not a progression model, CCP should also look into creating an "End Game" level for player's to reach because at present it does not have one. Any MMO worth its salt utilizing the "End Game" world model (pay to reach level 100 to be allowed to fight with all the other level 100s) has plenty of high end PVE content to buy, in fact it is pretty much a prerequisite of progression based MMO's.
Which sucks for the Eve as we know it because its a sandbox not a progression based MMO Well obviously that's a decision CCP has to make, alongside the decision about how beholden they'll have to be to the whims of the player base when it comes to the development of the game vs what they feel to be best. They'll have to decide if they want to have their ideas held hostage be a mob which has historically not lived up to their threats to quit when thrown around at any major change.
Not sure what you mean by Eve not being a progression model: Partially because progression is part of what they monetize, whether through the transfer of progressed characters and facilitating/moderating such trades, or the creation of trained characters for sub money. Additionally because a "progression model" and a sandbox are not exclusive, the proof being the very game we play and the fact that you would call it a sandbox while having an argument about the progression model in it.
Regarding end game, that's another discussion altogether where one has to ask whether a specific end game even makes sense in a game which conceptually shouldn't funnel players to a common end since it's a sandbox. And further wonder if an end game isn't self fulfilling in the realm of player generated content.
Hamish McRothimay wrote:EDIT: Did I mention that if I can afford to buy SP with cash and you can't my money buys an advantage Did I mention that this advantage already exists in the form of multiple account holding and character buying? Yes, I did.
Edit: Did I also mention this makes that advantage more accessible by lowering the price point of entry? Again, yes I did. Until you ban character trades and multi account holding on top of eliminating PLEX this idea is actually closer to being fair than the current paid advantage options with SP.
Did I also mention that since PLEX exists all the options available through this system (as well as current systems) are equally available without spending any real world currency, making you claim of not being disadvantaged rather subjective and more related to ones ability to manipulate the game? Also, yes. |
Warfare Warrior
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.05 22:10:06 -
[6378] - Quote
hurry up with this ive 13m leadership i want to move to gunnery :P |
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
31
|
Posted - 2016.01.06 02:21:55 -
[6379] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Which is fully irrelevant for any argument regarding the statement " The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time." An in game advantage need have no fiat to RL (which is also a fiat currency, so I'm not even sure what the point is here) conversion to be an in game advantage. Hamish McRothimay wrote:But do we really have to start over, cycling though the same old argument/counter argument again and again. We wouldn't if you would stop clinging to irrelevant or wholly untrue concepts as if they made a relevant point here. Especially when the existence of PLEX, a commodity with a real currency price point, already breaks every precept you're trying to cling to with that argument. Hamish McRothimay wrote:The point is I think it's a crap idea and you think it's wonderful. I think it's a good idea because it's a good idea. Your only objections stem from a series of false notions, be they the concept of winning with SP, the ability to buy advantages, and appeals to treat SP as a real currency when it's a virtual concept created by CCP with no such inherent equivalency. Hamish McRothimay wrote:CCP has to decide how many people it will please & how many it will **** off, Then hope that if they emulate the mico-transaction culture of other MMO's how much the increased player churn rate will affect the game and it's economy.
Also, as Eve is a sandbox model, not a progression model, CCP should also look into creating an "End Game" level for player's to reach because at present it does not have one. Any MMO worth its salt utilizing the "End Game" world model (pay to reach level 100 to be allowed to fight with all the other level 100s) has plenty of high end PVE content to buy, in fact it is pretty much a prerequisite of progression based MMO's.
Which sucks for the Eve as we know it because its a sandbox not a progression based MMO Well obviously that's a decision CCP has to make, alongside the decision about how beholden they'll have to be to the whims of the player base when it comes to the development of the game vs what they feel to be best. They'll have to decide if they want to have their ideas held hostage be a mob which has historically not lived up to their threats to quit when thrown around at any major change. Not sure what you mean by Eve not being a progression model: Partially because progression is part of what they monetize, whether through the transfer of progressed characters and facilitating/moderating such trades, or the creation of trained characters for sub money. Additionally because a "progression model" and a sandbox are not exclusive, the proof being the very game we play and the fact that you would call it a sandbox while having an argument about the progression model in it. Regarding end game, that's another discussion altogether where one has to ask whether a specific end game even makes sense in a game which conceptually shouldn't funnel players to a common end since it's a sandbox. And further wonder if an end game isn't self fulfilling in the realm of player generated content. Hamish McRothimay wrote:EDIT: Did I mention that if I can afford to buy SP with cash and you can't my money buys an advantage Did I mention that this advantage already exists in the form of multiple account holding and character buying? Yes, I did. Edit: Did I also mention this makes that advantage more accessible by lowering the price point of entry? Again, yes I did. Until you ban character trades and multi account holding on top of eliminating PLEX this idea is actually closer to being fair than the current paid advantage options with SP. Did I also mention that since PLEX exists all the options available through this system (as well as current systems) are equally available without spending any real world currency, making you claim of not being disadvantaged rather subjective and more related to ones ability to manipulate the game? Also, yes.
Irrelevant because you are not talking about an individuals time or real money.
Did I mention that if this goes through I will be able to gain advantage by buying the only thing left in the game you cannot buy and the only thing in the game that requires time commitment. Hence the point stands " The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time."
and by the way you were trolled 50 pages ago when you were convinced to create a list of points you think make this a good thing for the game when you cannot possibly know its effect on the game ...LOL you've been had
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.06 03:51:27 -
[6380] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Irrelevant because you are not talking about an individuals time or real money. Actually yes, we are talking about real time and money in any of the purchased advantage scenarios present, because they all represent real money being spent and real time being transferred, regardless of the question of whether the advantage gained has a specific monetary equivalency.
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Did I mention that if this goes through I will be able to gain advantage by buying the only thing left in the game you cannot buy and the only thing in the game that requires time commitment. Hence the point stands " The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time." Considering I'm already buying it your premise is still wrong.
Hamish McRothimay wrote:and by the way you were trolled 50 pages ago when you were convinced to create a list of points you think make this a good thing for the game when you cannot possibly know its effect on the game ...LOL you've been had Trolled into making a prediction about the effects of a change on the game, the same thing done by every player on this thread who made an argument regarding the benefit or detriment of the idea, including yourself (and CCP as well in the blog itself for that matter)?
If debating the idea based on predicted effects and consequences is a troll, CCP trolled you into this starting on page one and you're still biting.
But your straw grasping is pretty amusing while nonsensical. |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6904
|
Posted - 2016.01.06 05:58:38 -
[6381] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:and by the way you were trolled 50 pages ago when you were convinced to create a list of points you think make this a good thing for the game when you cannot possibly know its effect on the game ...LOL you've been had Trolled into making a prediction about the effects of a change on the game, the same thing done by every player on this thread who made an argument regarding the benefit or detriment of the idea, including yourself (and CCP as well in the blog itself for that matter)? If debating the idea based on predicted effects and consequences is a troll, CCP trolled you into this starting on page one and you're still biting. But your straw grasping is pretty amusing while nonsensical. CCP definitely got us good, how many pages with just one post?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.06 12:27:37 -
[6382] - Quote
The problems seem to rest with going beyond a certain threshold.
1. Let anyone with 30 mill+ sp rip them out. 2. Diminish returns to a hard cap of nothing at 30 mill SP. 3. Let the character bazaar live on to cater to the needs of mature players. They know where it is.
The idea is a good one if the scope is limited to above.
(the idea is to nudge the x-month old average player to become x+y month old average player. With x+y being well within 30 mill sp)
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
|
0bama Barack Hussein
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
77
|
Posted - 2016.01.06 18:29:53 -
[6383] - Quote
This sounds pretty familiar, just if I would have seen similar CCP-thread before earlier (unpopular) major changes, with majority of posters being loud objectors, and minority of posters getting still same amount of likes per single post...
Just as, if this were CCP-¦s plan all along when they introduced PLEX and Character Bazaar, so they could slowly go into this direction and tell player "well, SP is already sold for isk"...
Yeah, I believe this is already decided, and this whole thread where CCP "ask opinions" is no different from one before sov-changes, they will go for it anyways.
This is just softening us (vets and other resistant to any changes) for "a blow"...
Then be quick and be done with it. |
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
31
|
Posted - 2016.01.06 20:48:02 -
[6384] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote: Did I mention that if this goes through I will be able to gain advantage by buying the only thing left in the game you cannot buy and the only thing in the game that requires time commitment. Hence the point stands " The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time."
Considering I'm already buying it your premise is still wrong.
You CAN'T buy skill points for characters over and above the rate limited by subscription. Skill point ARE the only thing left in game cannot buy with real money,
So I guess I'm NOT WRONG
But feel free to tell me where to buy them and I will gladly buy you the skills needed for any one of your Characters to be able to fly a Titan .
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.06 21:30:02 -
[6385] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:You CAN'T buy skill points for characters over and above the rate limited by subscription. Well clearly, but I can buy beyond my subscription via the bazaar. Which is the same principle at work in the proposal, just with the package being reduced to SP itself instead of the character and the inherent advantages there.
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Skill point ARE the only thing left in game cannot buy with real money, As demonstrated above I can via cash > PLEX > Isk > Bazaar. (or cash > sub/cash > dual training cert).
Hamish McRothimay wrote:So I guess I'm NOT WRONG You are.
Hamish McRothimay wrote:But feel free to tell me where to buy them and I will gladly buy you the skills needed for any one of your Characters to be able to fly a Titan. Well now you're narrowing the definition. Before you said I can't buy SP, now it seems you're saying it only counts as an advantage when applied to a single character. Which again goes back the the problem with evoking the phrase "The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time." It only works when you narrow the definition of advantage to specifically what this proposal is about.
When you actually take the word "advantage" to mean "advantage" and not "just this specific thing we're talking about regardless of any other existing advantages" you see the definition of the phrase either isn't what you think it is or was just plain false from the moment uttered.
So if your goal was to prove the thing we're discussing isn't yet in game in the form proposed, congrats. If you wanted to prove the statement in contention uniquely applies to just this idea, you still haven't. If you wanted to suggest that the SP gets introduced by some manner other than sub time under this proposal, as suggested by your insistence in calling this a paid advantage while not acknowledging multi-account holders the same way, you never will because it's factually untrue as proposed. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6904
|
Posted - 2016.01.07 03:27:32 -
[6386] - Quote
Keep it up guys, this is very interesting and will be of great use in hammering out the fine details of this feature.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
35
|
Posted - 2016.01.07 17:36:18 -
[6387] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:You CAN'T buy skill points for characters over and above the rate limited by subscription. Well clearly, but I can buy beyond my subscription via the bazaar. Which is the same principle at work in the proposal, just with the package being reduced to SP itself instead of the character and the inherent advantages there. Hamish McRothimay wrote:Skill point ARE the only thing left in game cannot buy with real money, As demonstrated above I can via cash > PLEX > Isk > Bazaar. (or cash > sub/cash > dual training cert). Hamish McRothimay wrote:So I guess I'm NOT WRONG You are. Hamish McRothimay wrote:But feel free to tell me where to buy them and I will gladly buy you the skills needed for any one of your Characters to be able to fly a Titan. Well now you're narrowing the definition. Before you said I can't buy SP, now it seems you're saying it only counts as an advantage when applied to a single character. Which again goes back the the problem with evoking the phrase "The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time." It only works when you narrow the definition of advantage to specifically what this proposal is about. When you actually take the word "advantage" to mean "advantage" and not "just this specific thing we're talking about regardless of any other existing advantages" you see the definition of the phrase either isn't what you think it is or was just plain false from the moment uttered. So if your goal was to prove the thing we're discussing isn't yet in game in the form proposed, congrats. If you wanted to prove the statement in contention uniquely applies to just this idea, you still haven't. If you wanted to suggest that the SP gets introduced by some manner other than sub time under this proposal, as suggested by your insistence in calling this a paid advantage while not acknowledging multi-account holders the same way, you never will because it's factually untrue as proposed.
I'll ask once more: PLEASE tell me where I can already buy these Skill Points because as I said I will GLADLY buy you the skills needed for any one of your Characters to be able to fly a Titan
Really I will buy them, for any Character you like, Honest I will, Go on TELL ME where I can already BUY THEM
I really, really, REALLY want to KNOW where to buy them.
Tell you what, if you tell me where I can already buy SP for my characters I'll buy enough to MAX out the skills on not ONE but TWO of your characters.
Please, Would it help if I said "Pretty Please" where can I already buy skill points for my characters
EDIT: I expect this will be moderated away as in my frustration I descended into the depths of the sarcastic reply post |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.07 21:09:02 -
[6388] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:I'll ask once more: PLEASE tell me where I can already buy these Skill Points because as I said I will GLADLY buy you the skills needed for any one of your Characters to be able to fly a Titan
Really I will buy them, for any Character you like, Honest I will, Go on TELL ME where I can already BUY THEM
I really, really, REALLY want to KNOW where to buy them.
Tell you what, if you tell me where I can already buy SP for my characters I'll buy enough to MAX out the skills on not ONE but TWO of your characters.
Please, Would it help if I said "Pretty Please" where can I already buy skill points for my characters
EDIT: I expect this will be moderated away as in my frustration I descended into the depths of the sarcastic reply post If you redad my post instead of descending "into the depths of the sarcastic reply post" you'd realize every bit of your question, as well as it's lack of relevance to the point you were arguing (the misused quote and trying to selectively apply it) was addressed.
But you'd actually have to read it for that. |
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
35
|
Posted - 2016.01.08 01:24:24 -
[6389] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:I'll ask once more: PLEASE tell me where I can already buy these Skill Points because as I said I will GLADLY buy you the skills needed for any one of your Characters to be able to fly a Titan
Really I will buy them, for any Character you like, Honest I will, Go on TELL ME where I can already BUY THEM
I really, really, REALLY want to KNOW where to buy them.
Tell you what, if you tell me where I can already buy SP for my characters I'll buy enough to MAX out the skills on not ONE but TWO of your characters.
Please, Would it help if I said "Pretty Please" where can I already buy skill points for my characters
EDIT: I expect this will be moderated away as in my frustration I descended into the depths of the sarcastic reply post If you read my post instead of descending "into the depths of the sarcastic reply post" you'd realize every bit of your question, as well as it's lack of relevance to the point you were arguing (the misused quote and trying to selectively apply it) was addressed. But you'd actually have to read it for that. Edit: Actually, no, it's not reading that's the issue most likely, it's pretending the specific thing being suggested in the op is somehow the only "advantage" that could be conveyed through real money. We have other advantages demonstrated, but for obvious reasons you try to disqualify them. And the reason, as stated prior, is simply that unless you disqualify them all you'd be forced to face the fact that the quote doesn't actually hold true. Problem is that same quote doesn't give you room to disqualify the other advantages real money can convey. Edit 2: Further, it seems the only reason that statement is coming up is discounting the fact that due to already circulating PLEX there is no reason for cash to need to be spent to participate in any part of the proposal, which seems to be CCPs definition of fair considering other advantages cash can bring.
Go on tell me where they sell the skill points
I double dare you
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.08 02:33:35 -
[6390] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Go on tell me where they sell the skill points
I double dare you I take is all back, maybe it really is just reading comprehension. |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6904
|
Posted - 2016.01.08 04:46:04 -
[6391] - Quote
So when is the exploring done and the action going to begin?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.08 05:14:07 -
[6392] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:So when is the exploring done and the action going to begin? Maybe we need to explore further? Surely they'd tell us when we've explored enough, right?
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
203
|
Posted - 2016.01.08 07:18:22 -
[6393] - Quote
This thread is still going around in circles? Did I miss anything?
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:Go on tell me where they sell the skill points
I double dare you I take back the edits, maybe it really is just reading comprehension. I was on my way to the shelter to adopt a cat when I realized I didn't actually need or want a whole cat, so I asked to adopt the cuddliness of a cat instead. You wouldn't believe how much I've saved on vet bills.
noted, but you're well out of the top 10 now |
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
35
|
Posted - 2016.01.08 23:34:33 -
[6394] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:Go on tell me where they sell the skill points
I double dare you I take back the edits, maybe it really is just reading comprehension.
Thanks for the reply BUT where do I buy these Skill Points you said that I could already buy because that's all I want you to tell me. The rest of your comments are just the guff of red herrings you usually post. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.08 23:40:17 -
[6395] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:Go on tell me where they sell the skill points
I double dare you I take back the edits, maybe it really is just reading comprehension. Thanks for the reply BUT where do I buy these Skill Points you said that I could already buy because that's all I want you to tell me. The rest of your comments are just the guff of red herrings you usually post. Talk of guff and red herrings is amusing coming from you. You've been addressed, your refusal to acknowledge it isn't my fault. And I'm not going to put that effort into doing it again for you to do the same.
Edit: Actually no, lets back this up to where you think I said one could buy SP for a specific character, cause I've been at leat trying to be intentionally cautious on not saying that and distinguishing between that and ways one can currently buy SP. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6904
|
Posted - 2016.01.09 02:32:40 -
[6396] - Quote
beakerax wrote:I was on my way to the shelter to adopt a cat when I realized I didn't actually need or want a whole cat, so I asked to adopt the cuddliness of a cat instead. You wouldn't believe how much I've saved on vet bills. How much is the meowing of 1.5 cats?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
203
|
Posted - 2016.01.09 03:56:00 -
[6397] - Quote
speaking both practically and philosophically: it depends on which half |
Dex Cordell
EVE University Ivy League
13
|
Posted - 2016.01.10 02:47:53 -
[6398] - Quote
I've read through this thread and agree on people being against this proposal because of the diminishing returns not being very diminishing, people just can buy more extractors and do it all x times over till the desired amount of unallocated points is reached.
My opinion is, there's always something to train up, and having a skilling decision second-guessed at some point is fairly normal, given the amount of skills and their time-requirements. There's already a ton of skills that are widely considered a must-have to be able to fly any given kind of ship reasonably, and there's tons of resources, both ingame chat with players, and out of game forums, on the topic of what to skill for, when, and why exactly.
If people would want to reskill and refocus, there's already an ingame item (found in infantry gear) to do just that, I'm just not sure if it's not for DUST only (infantry gear not used in spaceships afaik). If so, make it universal. I can imagine wanting to rearrange, refocus and retrain my skills from scratch, using an EVEMon skill plan that I would build myself for reference not to mix it up in game. 80% skillbook price refund and maybe a percentage penalty on the amount of points refunded? Fine with me, paid the price for convenience.
And besides, for a specialized focused (hauler,incursion,you name it) alt, I've already been willing to sacrifice some time and plex to train specific things for specific purposes, no problem with that, and never once considered it a nuisance or such. Having alts not involved in wars and able to do stuff to make money to blow up in wars, and training those alts up myself instead of buying them, easy for me personally :)
The whole concept of character breakup brings me to another discussed and so far dismissed point, how about allowing character renaming? With employment history kept in place ofc, for people to not go completely anonymous with the name change, spais, corp thiefs, scammers and all the other piratey scum out there :))) Tons of people got their names wrong for this or that reason and want to change it, and there's surely some who'd want a rename to mark their prestige, or excellence in some field or other in the game :) |
zykerx
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.10 15:07:11 -
[6399] - Quote
so any updates on this crap ?
i can or sell some of my now nolonger needed indy alts or wait and melt them down for sp packs ;o |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
219
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 14:57:06 -
[6400] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:...
a) In very same video you have linked, CCP presentation. You are still talking about the peak, like this is the change which will get people to go to it. It wont, everything will remain pretty much as it is. So TSP will be expensive - for young players due to sheer amount of isk needed, for experienced players its not going to be worth it due to diminishing returns
b) It is not long term solution - meaning it is not strategy which can be continuously used (except very minor amount of people in game). Repeating:
And eve is all about long term. So if someone is not satisfied with regular sp/hour rate he will sooner or later go and purchase the char and your whole point is void.
Using couple of TSP to stay identified with your main char is lol point as no one will go and purchase char with 1-2mil sp more.
And again, char with higher sp does not have to be main char. People identify to the chars they want, if they want. TSP will not affect their personal play style and affinities in any way.
e) Not really if you get that SP in less than week with regular training anyway for very high price (half of the average players wallet).
SRP is SRP, simple as it. Corps which do it distinguish themselves from the corps which do not and TSP is not going to change anything there. But among all corps with SRP only thing which distinguishes is the value of SRP, nothing else. As every item is market item, players can always sell the ones they got in SRP and they do not like / need and buy the ones they like / need.
g) You are failing at basic economy. If one of the TSP parts is linked to Plex (and we know extractor is) then Plex prices will affect TSP pricing.
h) ROI is the issue and the reason why it will not work as your "plan".
m) You are denying market facts again. Plex is rising in price for years, supply is going down for years while at the all time demand for isk is there. People are covering it with less money then in past. For 1.2 bils you had to sell 4-5 plexes years ago, now you sell just one. With even more demand prices are going to go higher and people will get more isk for their cash. And that is only certain thing with TSP - it will make plex prices go up.
n) As i said, i wanted to define reputation in order to avoid your empty walls of text. I gave you definitions, you did not confirm or agree with any of them. Because if you would then you would admit that young players cannot have real reputation, their circle of influence in every possible term is way to small to be able to cause any major loss and get bad reputation.
And if they are not capable of checking chars history before buying it and eventually buy it and cry over it later I can only tell them "Welcome to Eve". This is not simcity.
Reprocessing "harmful" characters and selling them TSP is not a plus. Eve is about choices and consequences, if you want to make it hello kitty online that just shows that this game aint really for you.
You did not fall into "side effects" appeal since you did not provide counter argument for a single one I mentioned. Walls of text are not going to hide it.
In the end, you are still writing empty walls of text, you are still denying official data, facts and economy rules, still not providing any counter arguments for side effects. "Positive practices" of TSP you suggest are so minor and non important, plus they are against primary ideas of eve universe (choices and consequences). While i like your persistence, i really question your hidden agenda in this.... (just crossed my mind you might be plex seller who wants higher plex prices?)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
219
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 14:58:05 -
[6401] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:One more potential side effect - Based on CCP official statement : The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.
I was misguided by this and kept spending money on they game as I believed in this. Now I feel scammed. Enough material for reimbursement. Delete my chars and reimburse me subscriptions money for past 5-6 years for all my accounts...or law suit?
Man, if only that were actually being violated and SP wasn't still only coming from sub time invested in the game. You might actually have had a point on the level of principle. But even so, unless you actually had a tie in to the EULA or TOS, you'd be wasting the time of everyone involved pursuing it for all it's frivolousness.
It will be violated as soon as this is implemented. When someone buys enough sp to take over Caymus at #1, who knows how many people would be ready for such law action? I`d join it regardless of win or not. Even if it might not be part of EULA/TOS, it is still statement by CCP which makes it official and I think it has some weight.
But then again, I am not lawyer so I would leave it for someone else to figure it out and just jump on bandwagon (and I am sure it would be huge one) when law suit is up (if there is one).
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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0bama Barack Hussein
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
78
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 16:12:16 -
[6402] - Quote
Dex Cordell wrote:I've read through this thread and agree on people being against this proposal because of the diminishing returns not being very diminishing, people just can buy more extractors and do it all x times over till the desired amount of unallocated points is reached.
My opinion is, there's always something to train up, and having a skilling decision second-guessed at some point is fairly normal, given the amount of skills and their time-requirements. There's already a ton of skills that are widely considered a must-have to be able to fly any given kind of ship reasonably, and there's tons of resources, both ingame chat with players, and out of game forums, on the topic of what to skill for, when, and why exactly.
If people would want to reskill and refocus, there's already an ingame item (found in infantry gear) to do just that, I'm just not sure if it's not for DUST only (infantry gear not used in spaceships afaik). If so, make it universal. I can imagine wanting to rearrange, refocus and retrain my skills from scratch, using an EVEMon skill plan that I would build myself for reference not to mix it up in game. 80% skillbook price refund and maybe a percentage penalty on the amount of points refunded? Fine with me, paid the price for convenience.
And besides, for a specialized focused (hauler,incursion,you name it) alt, I've already been willing to sacrifice some time and plex to train specific things for specific purposes, no problem with that, and never once considered it a nuisance or such. Having alts not involved in wars and able to do stuff to make money to blow up in wars, and training those alts up myself instead of buying them, easy for me personally :)
The whole concept of character breakup brings me to another discussed and so far dismissed point, how about allowing character renaming? With employment history kept in place ofc, for people to not go completely anonymous with the name change, spais, corp thiefs, scammers and all the other piratey scum out there :))) Tons of people got their names wrong for this or that reason and want to change it, and there's surely some who'd want a rename to mark their prestige, or excellence in some field or other in the game :)
All the goodwill reasoning in the world will not hide the only fact that really matters for many of us, what really makes EvE different game (for us who have committed to it) compared to so many others, is time .
If CCP goes through with this, after that only space where my time invested, experience and skills matter compared to some rich noob will be in Elite.
E: sure we can already go partly pass this through Character Bazaar (that I did not like about either), but there are drawbacks enough to not make it as desirable as creating a char from the beginning. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 22:11:34 -
[6403] - Quote
a) So your response is to ignore the concept of incentive and growing capabilities to earn? I'm talking about the peak because that's what makes sense to talk about. The average without a particular incentive to earn should be expected to be less than that with that incentive to earn. Regarding being expensive, who ever argued it wouldn't be?
b) You're making an assumption about the nature of an SP purchase, specifically that it hold root in dissatisfaction in SP/hour specifically. I see no reason for that to hold true considering the point of gaining SP has little to do with the number itself and a great deal to do with ability and flexibility. At the point where those are had the desire to buy SP should diminish.
Also we've already demonstrated that the flat denial of identification isn't true because TSP creates a means to associate action with identity through accelerated training in ways the game currently does not support.
e) The price actually drives the value of the incentive rather than diminishing it. Also SRP isn't as boolean as you're making it sound. Corps distinguish themselves on what they reimburse and under what circumstances. And while the ability to sell items is true, that's on the org to police. And with full api's being a common requirement policing TSP usage is already enabled through verifying skills.
Most importantly though, nothing here actually justifies the idea that TSP can't or won't function as stated, rather it just supports it further since intentional misuse of a corps goodwill is still incentivized.
g) You're actually the one having an issue here. Unless the extractor is a significant part of the cost there is plenty of room for incoming PLEX with the intent of covering the total cost of TSP to overcome that which is sunk due to this system.
h) ROI holds no issue with any part of my expectations, if you think it does you should probably explain further.
m) No, you're overlooking a market fact, that RL plex purchases are driven by need for isk, and this generates need for isk which is only partially tied to PLEX at an unknown ratio. If the amount consumed by extractors is insignificant compared to the total is cost of TSP that creates a driver to inject PLEX at a rate higher than the drive to consume it.
Now, yes, that could be wrong because no one wants to spend real money on it. But that essentially negates the issue of real money "abuse" for the system.
n) "As i said, i wanted to define reputation in order to avoid your empty walls of text. I gave you definitions, you did not confirm or agree with any of them. Because if you would then you would admit that young players cannot have real reputation, their circle of influence in every possible term is way to small to be able to cause any major loss and get bad reputation." - We actually did discuss the nature of reputation and the fact that players are unknowns, that characters carry reputations, and that's why inheriting characters causes the reputation to be inherited. What we did agree on is that new players don't have reputation through their own characters, but again I stated that this exasperates rather than diminishes the issue. I can only guess that your playing the opposing angle that an unknown rep is somehow as bad as a known bad rep.
The funny thing with that is it negates the argument that Bazaar purchased players are counterbalanced by their prior reputations since you're arguing here that those have no effect.
"And if they are not capable of checking chars history before buying it and eventually buy it and cry over it later I can only tell them "Welcome to Eve". This is not simcity." - I'm not even familiar enough with simcity to even assume what you might be getting at here. Besides that, see below:
"Reprocessing "harmful" characters and selling them TSP is not a plus. Eve is about choices and consequences, if you want to make it hello kitty online that just shows that this game aint really for you." - It really is, since a game involving the concept of consequence should actually have consequence rather than incentivize shifting it for profit.
"You did not fall into "side effects" appeal since you did not provide counter argument for a single one I mentioned. Walls of text are not going to hide it." - This is BS, we had this conversation before. Stop pretending it wasn't addressed. |
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
38
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 22:17:22 -
[6404] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:Go on tell me where they sell the skill points
I double dare you I take back the edits, maybe it really is just reading comprehension. Thanks for the reply BUT where do I buy these Skill Points you said that I could already buy because that's all I want you to tell me. The rest of your comments are just the guff of red herrings you usually post. Talk of guff and red herrings is amusing coming from you. You've been addressed, your refusal to acknowledge it isn't my fault. And I'm not going to put that effort into doing it again for you to do the same. Edit: Actually no, lets back this up to where you think I said one could buy SP for a specific character, cause I've been at least trying to be intentionally cautious about not saying that (on top of acknowledging it isn't currently possible before you went into this current tangent, hence the accusations of not reading) and distinguishing between that and ways one can currently buy SP.
I Read this one very carefully, moved my lips with the words and everything. Nowhere do I see you informing me about the SP I can "already buy" so I will assume you are full of it.
Skill Points gained over and above the restraint of subscription are the only thing you cannot buy in the game with real money. Tradable Skill Points will remove this final block and fat wallets will trump experience. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 22:17:26 -
[6405] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:One more potential side effect - Based on CCP official statement : The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.
I was misguided by this and kept spending money on they game as I believed in this. Now I feel scammed. Enough material for reimbursement. Delete my chars and reimburse me subscriptions money for past 5-6 years for all my accounts...or law suit?
Man, if only that were actually being violated and SP wasn't still only coming from sub time invested in the game. You might actually have had a point on the level of principle. But even so, unless you actually had a tie in to the EULA or TOS, you'd be wasting the time of everyone involved pursuing it for all it's frivolousness. It will be violated as soon as this is implemented. When someone buys enough sp to take over Caymus at #1, who knows how many people would be ready for such law action? I`d join it regardless of win or not. Even if it might not be part of EULA/TOS, it is still statement by CCP which makes it official and I think it has some weight. But then again, I am not lawyer so I would leave it for someone else to figure it out and just jump on bandwagon (and I am sure it would be huge one) when law suit is up (if there is one). So the question at hand now is whether being top SP is a legal entitlement from tenure based on a statement that makes no such assertion?
Further it's been demonstrated that if indeed you believe this statement to be legally binding in any sense you should have stopped giving CCP money and pursued legal options long ago as, in the manner you would have it interpreted, those words are fundamentally untrue now.
The fact that people have various reasons to tolerate that doesn't change the truth of the matter.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 22:22:58 -
[6406] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:I Read this one very carefully, moved my lips with the words and everything. Nowhere do I see you informing me about the SP I can "already buy" so I will assume you are full of it. Note I said comprehension as well, which you still apparently lack. But again, since you omitted the qualifier of being for a specific character, see below for buying methods:
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Skill Points gained over and above the restraint of subscription are the only thing you cannot buy in the game with real money. Tradable Skill Points will remove this final block and fat wallets will trump experience. Wrong, I can buy SP from the Bazaar and via additional subs and dual training certs. 2 of those are in addition to the SP my sub entails (and all 3 when actually looking at time alone as the driver of entitlement rather than time and additional money, the thing you're arguing against) and one is completely divorced from any sub time I have invested. |
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
38
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 22:40:25 -
[6407] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:You CAN'T buy skill points for characters over and above the rate limited by subscription. Well clearly, but I can buy beyond my subscription via the bazaar. Which is the same principle at work in the proposal, just with the package being reduced to SP itself instead of the character and the inherent advantages there. Hamish McRothimay wrote:Skill point ARE the only thing left in game cannot buy with real money, As demonstrated above I can via cash > PLEX > Isk > Bazaar. (or cash > sub/cash > dual training cert). Hamish McRothimay wrote:So I guess I'm NOT WRONG You are. Hamish McRothimay wrote:But feel free to tell me where to buy them and I will gladly buy you the skills needed for any one of your Characters to be able to fly a Titan. Well now you're narrowing the definition. Before you said I can't buy SP, now it seems you're saying it only counts as an advantage when applied to a single character. Which again goes back the the problem with evoking the phrase "The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time." It only works when you narrow the definition of advantage to specifically what this proposal is about. When you actually take the word "advantage" to mean "advantage" and not "just this specific thing we're talking about regardless of any other existing advantages" you see the definition of the phrase either isn't what you think it is or was just plain false from the moment uttered. So if your goal was to prove the thing we're discussing isn't yet in game in the form proposed, congrats. If you wanted to prove the statement in contention uniquely applies to just this idea, you still haven't. If you wanted to suggest that the SP gets introduced by some manner other than sub time under this proposal, as suggested by your insistence in calling this a paid advantage while not acknowledging multi-account holders the same way, you never will because it's factually untrue as proposed.
But, Where do they hide the specials ?
You Know the special toons,
The ones for sale with the extra skill points you said I could "already buy", the ones not constrained by time/subs or did I miss the 6 month old fully skilled carrier pilot? |
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
38
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 22:44:00 -
[6408] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:I Read this one very carefully, moved my lips with the words and everything. Nowhere do I see you informing me about the SP I can "already buy" so I will assume you are full of it. Note I said comprehension as well, which you still apparently lack. But again, since you omitted the qualifier of being for a specific character, see below for buying methods: Hamish McRothimay wrote:Skill Points gained over and above the restraint of subscription are the only thing you cannot buy in the game with real money. Tradable Skill Points will remove this final block and fat wallets will trump experience. Wrong, I can buy SP from the Bazaar and via additional subs and dual training certs. 2 of those are in addition to the SP my sub entails (and all 3 when actually looking at time alone as the driver of entitlement rather than time and additional money, the thing you're arguing against) and one is completely divorced from any sub time I have invested. Also we argue that experience and skill trump SP now, so unless we were full of it wallets trumping that won't hold true either. Edit: You also didn't answer the question: Where did I say you could already buy SP for a particular character? Where was this little tangent of yours justified? Or is this the red herring you were referring to earlier?
No mention of the SP Please tell Where I can find them |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 22:45:49 -
[6409] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:You CAN'T buy skill points for characters over and above the rate limited by subscription. Well clearly, but I can buy beyond my subscription via the bazaar. Which is the same principle at work in the proposal, just with the package being reduced to SP itself instead of the character and the inherent advantages there. Hamish McRothimay wrote:Skill point ARE the only thing left in game cannot buy with real money, As demonstrated above I can via cash > PLEX > Isk > Bazaar. (or cash > sub/cash > dual training cert). Hamish McRothimay: So I guess I'm NOT WRONG Me: You are. (Reformatted due to quote limit) Hamish McRothimay wrote:But feel free to tell me where to buy them and I will gladly buy you the skills needed for any one of your Characters to be able to fly a Titan. Well now you're narrowing the definition. Before you said I can't buy SP, now it seems you're saying it only counts as an advantage when applied to a single character. Which again goes back the the problem with evoking the phrase "The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time." It only works when you narrow the definition of advantage to specifically what this proposal is about. When you actually take the word "advantage" to mean "advantage" and not "just this specific thing we're talking about regardless of any other existing advantages" you see the definition of the phrase either isn't what you think it is or was just plain false from the moment uttered. So if your goal was to prove the thing we're discussing isn't yet in game in the form proposed, congrats. If you wanted to prove the statement in contention uniquely applies to just this idea, you still haven't. If you wanted to suggest that the SP gets introduced by some manner other than sub time under this proposal, as suggested by your insistence in calling this a paid advantage while not acknowledging multi-account holders the same way, you never will because it's factually untrue as proposed. But, Where do they hide the specials ? You Know the special toons, The ones for sale with the extra skill points you said I could "already buy", the ones not constrained by time/subs or did I miss the 6 month old fully skilled carrier pilot? Relevant parts emphasized. As stated, this was purely comprehension failure on your part. I mentioned no means to buy SP for a specific character and greed when you stated there weren't any. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 22:47:13 -
[6410] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:No mention of the SP Please tell Where I can find them As stated several times:
Quote:I can buy SP from the Bazaar and via additional subs and dual training certs. 2 of those are in addition to the SP my sub entails (and all 3 when actually looking at time alone as the driver of entitlement rather than time and additional money, the thing you're arguing against) and one is completely divorced from any sub time I have invested. Unless referring to SP for a specific character, which I never stated could be done. |
|
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
38
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 22:50:36 -
[6411] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:[quote=Hamish McRothimay]You CAN'T buy skill points for characters over and above the rate limited by subscription. [ b]Well clearly[/b], but I can buy beyond my subscription via the bazaar. Which is the same principle at work in the proposal, just with the package being reduced to SP itself instead of the character and the inherent advantages there. But, Where do they hide the specials ? You Know the special toons, The ones for sale with the extra skill points you said I could "already buy", the ones not constrained by time/subs or did I miss the 6 month old fully skilled carrier pilot? Relevant parts emphasized. As stated, this was purely comprehension failure on your part. I mentioned no means to buy SP for a specific character and greed when you stated there weren't any.
All-righty then So you are AGAINST buying SP for a specific character but OK with buying one whole to replace one you already have.
but I still want you to tell me where the SP I can already buy are instead of blabbering around with all these red herrings
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 22:55:54 -
[6412] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote: All-righty then So you are AGAINST buying SP for a specific character but OK with buying one whole to replace one you already have.
but I still want you to tell me where the SP I can already buy are instead of blabbering around with all these red herrings
No, I'm not against buying SP for a specific character. I'm saying the functionality doesn't currently exist, but I am in favor of adding it as proposed.
You are correct about me being ok with buying additional characters.
Regarding the question, it's already answered several times:
I can buy SP from the Bazaar and via additional subs and dual training certs. 2 of those are in addition to the SP my sub entails (and all 3 when actually looking at time alone as the driver of entitlement rather than time and additional money, the thing you're arguing against) and one is completely divorced from any sub time I have invested.
|
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
38
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 23:02:49 -
[6413] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:No mention of the SP Please tell Where I can find them As stated several times: Quote:I can buy SP from the Bazaar and via additional subs and dual training certs. 2 of those are in addition to the SP my sub entails (and all 3 when actually looking at time alone as the driver of entitlement rather than time and additional money, the thing you're arguing against) and one is completely divorced from any sub time I have invested. Unless referring to SP for a specific character, which I never stated could be done.
When I said you couldn't , you replied with "you can already do that" then blabbered for a dozen posts about everything other than SP for specific character.
It's obvious you want players to be able to BUY with real life money Skill Points and screw the players paying subscription who are not willing to pay extra
and by the way, You can buy training certs with ISK but not extra SP You can Buy Toons with is ISK but not extra SP You can subscribe to as many accounts as you like and you STILL CAN"T BUY EXTRA SKILL POINTS WITH ISK |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 23:28:02 -
[6414] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Wen I said you couldn't , you replied with "you can already do that" then blabbered for a dozen posts about everything other than SP for specific character. When you say, "You can't buy SP for a specific character." I say: "Correct, buy I can buy SP outside of that constraint"
When you say, "You can't buy SP." I say: "Incorrect, buy I can buy SP."
Very simple pattern
Hamish McRothimay wrote:It's obvious you want players to be able to BUY with real life money Skill Points and screw the players paying subscription who are not willing to pay extra Considering I'm supporting a system that doesn't require real money, uses the in game market as the primary point of transfer, and is likely to be more affordable in game than current alternatives (PLEX, DTC, Bazaar) while being more flexible, it should be clear I'm in favor of being more friendly to those not wanting to spend extra funding multiple accounts of having multi-billion isk entry points.
Also this isn't about personal wants as using other methods of buying SP has placed me well into the realm of this being personally unattractive from an efficiency standpoint. I'm not paying any of the predicted amounts for less than a days training.
Hamish McRothimay wrote:and by the way, You can buy training certs with ISK but not extra SP You can Buy Toons with is ISK but not extra SP You can subscribe to as many accounts as you like and you STILL CAN"T BUY EXTRA SKILL POINTS WITH ISK A few things wrong here: 1) Training certs only function is to grant SP, thus making them buying SP 2) Characters can't be separated from their SP, thus buying them necessitates buying their SP (which tends to actually be the reason for the purchase) 3) Subs come with the ability to train, training produces SP, funding extra accounts produces more SP, thus I'm buying SP. 4) Funny enough, if you were right with "you STILL CAN"T BUY EXTRA SKILL POINTS WITH ISK" it would mean the point you were originally trying to prove would be wrong, since all the advantages you just listed would be unobtainable except through money and not through time.
But as long as PLEX exists and is available for trade I can trade my time earning isk to: Convert trial accounts or extending alt subs for additional training Convert to training certs for more SP within an account
So we're back to a monetary advantage you want to eliminate on semantics but factually can't. |
Jimmy Galdelf
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 00:11:55 -
[6415] - Quote
I Started playing this in 2008. I've quit playing several times for the same reason each time. It just takes way too long to train skills enough, so your not sitting in a station waiting to be skilled enough to survive or to start doing what ever it was you joined the game to do.
Pros: This will open up the game for new players and make it more new player friendly. This will NOT give anyone experience to stand up against a season player. This is open to people that make isk and isn't only available to those who pay with a wallet. This has the potential to bring in new players and old players. Which helps the game economy and pvp and probably everything else offered in the game.
(IMHO: If seasoned players don't want us to have this then they are still in control of it. All they have to do is not give up their skill points)
Cons:
The skill point amounts may need to be tweaked. I don't fully understand what 500k skill points translates into for amount of skills but my best guy only has like 6k. (I am still a new player even though i've tried playing this on and off since 2008)
Old players are not going to like this because it gives an edge to new players that they never had starting the game. (we don't have to start grinding before we can actually play.)
Comments: Every time I started to try and play this game I felt like i was paying for a game i was doing nothing but staying in a station to learn skills in so i could venture out and have fun.
This may or may not be the truth of the matter but it was how I felt. Most people are not going to pay to do that. Even if its not how it really is in this game. For those of us who has felt that way this would give us an opportunity to get out of the stations and do something like learn how to pvp, mine, do contracts, or otherwise contribute to the game and make it better.
If this goes though and we do get an influx of new players this would be good for everyone all around in my opinion. It just needs some fine tuning so the skills keep their value. I mean if 100 new players tried this out that's 100 new people to gank, to trade with, and to make the universe a more fun place for everyone.
I hope this wasn't too long winded but I thought this would be helpful. |
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
793
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 08:07:21 -
[6416] - Quote
Jimmy Galdelf wrote:I Started playing this in 2008. I've quit playing several times for the same reason each time. It just takes way too long to train skills enough, so your not sitting in a station waiting to be skilled enough to survive or to start doing what ever it was you joined the game to do.
Pros: This will open up the game for new players and make it more new player friendly. This will NOT give anyone experience to stand up against a season player. This is open to people that make isk and isn't only available to those who pay with a wallet. This has the potential to bring in new players and old players. Which helps the game economy and pvp and probably everything else offered in the game.
(IMHO: If seasoned players don't want us to have this then they are still in control of it. All they have to do is not give up their skill points)
Cons:
The skill point amounts may need to be tweaked. I don't fully understand what 500k skill points translates into for amount of skills but my best guy only has like 6 mil. (I am still a new player even though i've tried playing this on and off since 2008)
Old players are not going to like this because it gives an edge to new players that they never had starting the game. (we don't have to start grinding before we can actually play.)
Comments: Every time I started to try and play this game I felt like i was paying for a game i was doing nothing but staying in a station to learn skills in so i could venture out and have fun.
This may or may not be the truth of the matter but it was how I felt. Most people are not going to pay to do that. Even if its not how it really is in this game. For those of us who has felt that way this would give us an opportunity to get out of the stations and do something like learn how to pvp, mine, do contracts, or otherwise contribute to the game and make it better.
If this goes though and we do get an influx of new players this would be good for everyone all around in my opinion. It just needs some fine tuning so the skills keep their value. I mean if 100 new players tried this out that's 100 new people to gank, to trade with, and to make the universe a more fun place for everyone.
I hope this wasn't too long winded but I thought this would be helpful.
Maybe there would be less resistance if there was a cap on the Max SP you could have in order to be able to use one of the packets so it would be more geared to help new characters get a jump in the game and out of the stations. Things have changed greatly since 2008 - with 6 mil SP you would be one of the better skilled pilots (or at least on par with) in groups like PandemicHorde, KarmaFleet, Brave and many other rookie friendly groups who regularly get together fleets (large and small) of relatively new players and go KickAss or just burn in glorious battle. Sure, you won't be running the best missions or making dank isk but when your flying cheap ships, which in most cases are free or at least have good SRP, you don't need to. Lack of SP is no reason to stay docked up, unless your training specifically for your navy raven to run lvl 4's, join a corp, get a dessie go kill stuff and be killed.
You don't "need" to buy SP to fly the biggest and best to have some good fun PVP - FW, the most common doctrines are destroyers and frigates, you rarely hear complaints from FW folk about a lack of content. NB; When I want some carefree fun pvp, I log in my FW alt who coincidentally is 4 years old and has 6.2 mil SP. I no longer train it, the SP the character has suits the role he is used for perfectly. (ps; fighting a Nomen with a Corax is not advised, it was fun though)
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
Ragnar Blackthorn
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 11:59:50 -
[6417] - Quote
I'm surprised it's the Eve vets who have said in the past 'SP doesn't matter' who are against this, I would of thought they would love Skill Trading to be implemented so that they can sell every single one of their SP to prove what they said, that SP doesn't matter while newer player who think that SP does matter would buy it and be happy, it's good for all sides.
|
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
536
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 12:54:46 -
[6418] - Quote
People can debate the pros and cons of this terrible idea until the cows come home. But every time I re-visit this topic, I am reminded how very strongly I am opposed. I cannot help but feel that if some newbro can just roll up and purchase SP that it absolutely devalues my own investment in my characters. I've spent 8 years building my roster for what? So some newbro can have all that (or even part of that struggle) with zero effort? Investing time is the game.
Nevermind the fact that EVE is supposed to be hard. HTFU has been its motto for as long as I can remember. In this game your choices have consequences. And that is my biggest issue with this idea. It upends everything I believe EVE is. It's such a terrible idea, I'm upset it was even presented to the playerbase. Of course some people are going to want it. I'm just scared one day there's going to be enough of those easymodes to actually win the argument.
And it goes without saying that if this goes through, name change, race change, and erasing corp/contract history cannot be far behind. Its already being asked for in this thread.
Once choices become meaningless, if one change is good, two must be better.
YK |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6904
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 13:11:31 -
[6419] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote: HTFU has been its motto for as long as I can remember.
Yeah, better htfu and figure out how to use this fo your maximum benefit.
Or, well since it isn't out yet, you should probably spam the thread more. Only when it comes out do you actually have to htfu, I guess.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6904
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 13:12:28 -
[6420] - Quote
Ragnar Blackthorn wrote:I'm surprised it's the Eve vets who have said in the past 'SP doesn't matter' who are against this, I would of thought they would love Skill Trading to be implemented so that they can sell every single one of their SP to prove what they said, that SP doesn't matter while newer player who think that SP does matter would buy it and be happy, it's good for all sides.
Don't be surprised, because the overpowered thing is never overpowered when it's an advantage to you. SP, ships that can't dock, etc etc you name it.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
|
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
536
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 13:23:35 -
[6421] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Yonis Kador wrote: HTFU has been its motto for as long as I can remember.
Yeah, better htfu and figure out how to use this fo your maximum benefit. Or, well since it isn't out yet, you should probably spam the thread more. Only when it comes out do you actually have to htfu, I guess.
If it happens, obviously I'm going to be buying SP like everyone else. I can think of 4-5 ships I'd like to be flying now that I can't. Sounds great. Of course, that also was my training plan for the next few months of EVE... but why not? Let's have it today!
I just hope it doesn't happen. Even in some watered down form.
And with ALL due respect Alavaria, really? You're lecturing me about spam?
: ) |
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
795
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 21:35:53 -
[6422] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Yonis Kador wrote: HTFU has been its motto for as long as I can remember.
Yeah, better htfu and figure out how to use this fo your maximum benefit. Or, well since it isn't out yet, you should probably spam the thread more. Only when it comes out do you actually have to htfu, I guess. If it happens, obviously I'm going to be buying SP like everyone else. I can think of 4-5 ships I'd like to be flying now that I can't. Sounds great. Of course, that also was my training plan for the next few months of EVE... but why not? Let's have it today! I just hope it doesn't happen. Even in some watered down form. And with ALL due respect Alavaria, really? You're lecturing me about spam? : ) Let me understand this; 1st you have to be an alt of someone who has been playing since 2007 (going by your previous post) so would presumably have been training for a number of years and have over 50 mil SP. You state quite adamantly your are against this proposal, yet in your next post declare you will buy SP because after training multiple characters for many years, there is 4 ships you would be prepared to spend billions of isk on with 90% diminishing returns, to save a little time off your current training cue? Please correct me if i got it wrong.
Quote:Tyberius Franklin; Considering I'm supporting a system that doesn't require real money, uses the in game market as the primary point of transfer, and is likely to be more affordable in game than current alternatives (PLEX, DTC, Bazaar) while being more flexible, it should be clear I'm in favor of being more friendly to those not wanting to spend extra funding multiple accounts or having multi-billion isk entry points. I tried to ignore this but found I just had to respond and point out how wrong you are. EVERYTHING in Eve is based on "real money", whether it is your credit card spinning it or someone else's - Plex, DTC's, Aurum are all brought into the game via someone having spent "real money". The whole Eve economy is based to some extent by how much "real money" players are willing to spend, CCP control that by setting the prices at which those items enter the game.
NB; Even at 500 mil per packet (the minimum I believe), SP is not going to be "affordable" for anyone other than those who would not benefit from purchasing it due to diminishing returns. New players, those with less than 10 mil SP (who should be the target group) will not, without rich benefactors (like Alavaria who has previously stated she will give SP away in the right situations) be able to afford SP packets without use of a credit card - Which is Exactly what CCP is hoping for. In game currency doesn't translate into income for CCP unless it is purchased with "real money" via Plex, DTC's or Aurum.
This proposal is not about making the game better or easier for lower skilled pilots, it is about generating alternate incomes for CCP. Any benefit to players is secondary. If it weren't about real money, the sp packets would not have a real money value - Aurum. They would instead be available via BPO's or some such, using in game currency and the ingame market. Now; before someone says "you can buy them with isk", yes you can but someone has to spend money to get the Aurum into the game to buy the SP packets so they can be sold for isk on the ingame market. That is how the Eve economy works, someone spends real money so someone else can spend isk.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 21:50:54 -
[6423] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Quote:Tyberius Franklin; Considering I'm supporting a system that doesn't require real money, uses the in game market as the primary point of transfer, and is likely to be more affordable in game than current alternatives (PLEX, DTC, Bazaar) while being more flexible, it should be clear I'm in favor of being more friendly to those not wanting to spend extra funding multiple accounts or having multi-billion isk entry points. I tried to ignore this but found I just had to respond and point out how wrong you are. EVERYTHING in Eve is based on "real money", whether it is your credit card spinning it or someone else's - Plex, DTC's, Aurum are all brought into the game via someone having spent "real money". The whole Eve economy is based to some extent by how much "real money" players are willing to spend, CCP control that by setting the prices at which those items enter the game. The response was to someone who specifically stated the advantage here was to real money paying players FOR THIS SPECIFIC FEATURE rather than being open to those with active accounts. It was not aimed at the idea that real money didn't need paid on anyones part, but rather that gameplay options are open to take advantage of the features since they are offered by those who did buy them (in any part) for cash. Context is important.
Sgt Ocker wrote:NB; Even at 500 mil per packet (the minimum I believe), SP is not going to be "affordable" for anyone other than those who would not benefit from purchasing it due to diminishing returns. New players, those with less than 10 mil SP (who should be the target group) will not, without rich benefactors (like Alavaria who has previously stated she will give SP away in the right situations) be able to afford SP packets without use of a credit card - Which is Exactly what CCP is hoping for. In game currency doesn't translate into income for CCP unless it is purchased with "real money" via Plex, DTC's or Aurum. 500m per packet minimum is on you to justify before the rest of this has any weight. It's certainly possible, but you've not stated any reason here why it would be likely.
Sgt Ocker wrote:This proposal is not about making the game better or easier for lower skilled pilots, it is about generating alternate incomes for CCP. Any benefit to players is secondary. If it weren't about real money, the sp packets would not have a real money value - Aurum. They would instead be available via BPO's or some such, using in game currency and the ingame market. Now; before someone says "you can buy them with isk", yes you can but someone has to spend money to get the Aurum into the game to buy the SP packets so they can be sold for isk on the ingame market. That is how the Eve economy works, someone spends real money so someone else can spend isk. Now you're just creating a false dichotomy between something good for the game and something CCP can charge for. No one has argued this won't make money for CCP, but at the same time some of us realize that CCP making money doesn't make it negative in the least. They've actually come up with an inventive system with PLEX which allows more people to potentially play than might otherwise between those who can make isk but don't want to spend money, and those that have money but don't want to grind isk.
It makes CCP money with being the most expensive sub method and benefits the community overall. It basically proves this appeal to profit vs benefit false on it's face. |
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
795
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 07:28:40 -
[6424] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Now you're just creating a false dichotomy between something good for the game and something CCP can charge for. No one has argued this won't make money for CCP, but at the same time some of us realize that CCP making money doesn't make it negative in the least. They've actually come up with an inventive system with PLEX which allows more people to potentially play than might otherwise between those who can make isk but don't want to spend money, and those that have money but don't want to grind isk.
It makes CCP money with being the most expensive sub method and benefits the community overall. It basically proves this appeal to profit vs benefit and the idea that something can't be targeted at both false on it's face. Of course it is more available to those prepared to spend real money. Please do tell how it benefits "the whole community" ? It seems this will benefit a small sector of the player base via the isk option (those with less than 50 mil SP who are space rich or with large earning potential) and help new players only if they have money to spend (or a space rich benefactor).
Read the thread. you will see where my minimum 500 mil per comes from. I stated my opinion on this several times, in detail. NB; If this relies on "older players selling off those unwanted mining skills" as CCP suggested, the scheme would run out of supply in a matter of months. Supply will come from SP farmers, who will want to make a profit. At 1.2 bil to create around 1.8 mil SP per month - You work it out.
No it doesn't but if CCP weren't concerned about income from the feature, it could be implemented at a lower cost to those who wish to use it, especially if the target group is new lower skilled pilots without large isk earning potential. Plus your plex comparison fails where the target group is concerned in many cases, unless they have money. I don't know many new players who can plex their accounts, let alone have extra isk for SP packets.
The idea of plex for play is great, until it reaches a price that excludes certain player groups from using it without turning Eve into a part time job. It takes me around 20 hours to make enough to buy 1 plex with isk (without grinding my *** off). So with an average play time of 2.5 hrs p/d over 30 days - that is 1/3 (roughly) spent making enough isk to play next month. I then need to make isk to buy ships, modules, ammo, etc so I can pvp (the reason I play Eve), so add another 10 or 15 hours of ratting to support my pvp habit. Up to half my available online time consumed making isk with a well skilled pilot flying a purpose fit ship.
Take that example and apply it to a guy (or girl) who has only been playing for 2 or 3 months, it may help explain a lot. The "idea" you can play the game "for free" by buying plex in game is great, reality is, it is not available to all. Not everyone is space rich, nor should they be but to say anyone can play for free is not entirely true. You forgot - Those who don't want to (or can't afford to) spend money but are unable to make the amount of isk required without turning Eve into a job.
All of this is pointless really, CCP will do what CCP will do and the feature will get used or it won't. Players will decide the success or failure of the feature. If SP is too costly the feature fails and considering Eve's market motto is greed is good, it leaves this new feature in a precarious position.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6905
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 18:55:15 -
[6425] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Now you're just creating a false dichotomy between something good for the game and something CCP can charge for. No one has argued this won't make money for CCP, but at the same time some of us realize that CCP making money doesn't make it negative in the least. They've actually come up with an inventive system with PLEX which allows more people to potentially play than might otherwise between those who can make isk but don't want to spend money, and those that have money but don't want to grind isk.
It makes CCP money with being the most expensive sub method and benefits the community overall. It basically proves this appeal to profit vs benefit and the idea that something can't be targeted at both false on it's face. At this point it's basically a mix between a "it's like greed is good" seeking for kneejerk responses and a "it's pay to win" emotional appeal ... for kneejerk responses.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6905
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 19:19:05 -
[6426] - Quote
While maybe people with under 10mil SP characters can't afford the SP packets by isk grinding, do they afford their sub/plex by isk grinding?
I like how the idea is somehow they are tricked by adding an option, so much so they somehow harm themselves?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
kraken11 jensen
ROOKS AND KRAKENS Requiem Eternal
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 19:32:47 -
[6427] - Quote
The thing about eve, is. you can have High sp, you can have the best implants. But if you don't know what your doing, your going to get your ass whopped anyway. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 21:42:19 -
[6428] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Of course it is more available to those prepared to spend real money. Well of course, every thing in the game is more available to those prepared to spend real money with the only exception being those items not being made available by those who have them and no way to reproduce them.
Real money exists as a bypass to isk earning via PLEX, thus anything that costs isk is "more available to those prepared to spend real money." Why are we still pretending this is new?
Sgt Ocker wrote:Please do tell how it benefits "the whole community" ? It seems this will benefit a small sector of the player base via the isk option (those with less than 50 mil SP who are space rich or with large earning potential) and help new players only if they have money to spend (or a space rich benefactor). With average wallets at >700mill 300-400mill isn't space rich. Also one can make serious isk at far less than 50mill SP. Do you mean to suggest that there should be no reward for achieving that? That for those that take the most common and least rewarding paths should determine what those that do better should achieve? Or that the option to make more isk themselves isn't there?
Sgt Ocker wrote:Read the thread. you will see where my minimum 500 mil per comes from. I stated my opinion on this several times, in detail. NB; If this relies on "older players selling off those unwanted mining skills" as CCP suggested, the scheme would run out of supply in a matter of months. Supply will come from SP farmers, who will want to make a profit. At 1.2 bil to create around 1.8 mil SP per month - You work it out. I've been in this thread quite a while, I've seen and proposed several numbers, none of them at or above 500mill.
But if you want math, lets do math: Farmers will set up for 2700 SP/hour or 1,944,000 SP/PLEX TSP is 500k SP PLEX is under 1.2B
Using that estimation TSP cost in PLEX is 308mill isk, which has been stated several times, something someone making appeals to read the thread should know since numbers around 300mill have been thrown around quite a bit.
So again, prove your "500mill minimum." Math doesn't support your conclusion even before considering those accounts already PLEX'd through activities other than SP farming but not training, making them pure profit farms at under 300mill values.
Sgt Ocker wrote:No it doesn't but if CCP weren't concerned about income from the feature, it could be implemented at a lower cost to those who wish to use it, especially if the target group is new lower skilled pilots without large isk earning potential. Plus your plex comparison fails where the target group is concerned in many cases, unless they have money. I don't know many new players who can plex their accounts, let alone have extra isk for SP packets. The price point is set by the size of the packets and, per our best estimation, the price of PLEX. All CCP can do is reduce the size of TSP, but all that does is dilute the purchase, and that doesn't make gaining a specific amount of SP any cheaper. The nature of the idea puts pricing out of CCPs control.
What you're saying they should do is something they can't do unless they use a direct sale method, forgoing extractors and dependance on players farming/selling the SP.
Sgt Ocker wrote:The idea of plex for play is great, until it reaches a price that excludes certain player groups from using it without turning Eve into a part time job. It takes me around 20 hours to make enough to buy 1 plex with isk (without grinding my *** off). So with an average play time of 2.5 hrs p/d over 30 days - that is 1/3 (roughly) spent making enough isk to play next month. I then need to make isk to buy ships, modules, ammo, etc so I can pvp (the reason I play Eve), so add another 10 or 15 hours of ratting to support my pvp habit. Up to half my available online time consumed making isk with a well skilled pilot flying a purpose fit ship.
Take that example and apply it to a guy (or girl) who has only been playing for 2 or 3 months, it may help explain a lot. The "idea" you can play the game "for free" by buying plex in game is great, reality is, it is not available to all. Not everyone is space rich, nor should they be but to say anyone can play for free is not entirely true. You forgot - Those who don't want to (or can't afford to) spend money but are unable to make the amount of isk required without turning Eve into a job.
All of this is pointless really, CCP will do what CCP will do and the feature will get used or it won't. Players will decide the success or failure of the feature. If SP is too costly the feature fails and considering Eve's market motto is greed is good, it leaves this new feature in a precarious position. The idea of PLEX remains great at any price point because it's not an entitlement. The same for TSP. If we consider TSP a must, that's because SP is a must, and if SP is a must we've been lying for 13 years about this game being about player skill and cooperation as opposed to character skills.
I believe the former is true, thus the idea that everyone may not participate for whatever reason isn't an issue. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 22:31:05 -
[6429] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:While maybe people with under 10mil SP characters can't afford the SP packets by isk grinding, do they afford their sub/plex by isk grinding?
I like how the idea is somehow they are tricked by adding an option, so much so they somehow harm themselves? Apparently the weight of determining how to spend one's free time is considered by some here to be too much of a burden for each player to bear.
I guess CCP should police them by limiting the available ways to spend isk.
Maybe we should take away cap ships and T2/T3s too so they don't hurt themselves trying to get them.
And worse, consider for a moment the horrid possibility that players may even decide not to grind but instead buy PLEX to fund their desire for more ships and mods!
Never mind that this is the intended means for PLEX to be introduced into the game, ensuring plentiful supply and working against further price increases in a game where low earnings potentials are only a temporary state that everyone outgrows, placing more demand pressure on PLEX.
We have to stop people from buying PLEX for in game purchases because it's really bad for reasons!
|
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
47
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 22:58:52 -
[6430] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
But if you want math, lets do math: Farmers will set up for 2700 SP/hour or 1,944,000 SP/PLEX TSP is 500k SP PLEX is under 1.2B
Using that estimation TSP cost in PLEX is 308mill isk, which has been stated several times, something someone making appeals to read the thread should know since numbers around 300mill have been thrown around quite a bit.
So again, prove your "500mill minimum." Math doesn't support your conclusion even before considering those accounts already PLEX'd through activities other than SP farming but not training, making them pure profit farms at under 300mill values.
Your maths sucks you just have 1 plex for dual training & 1/3 Plex for injector
Add another PLEX for the extractor
"" A Transneural Skill Packet is created by extracting some of your trained skills and combining them with a GÇÿTransneural Skill ExtractorGÇÖ which can be purchased in the New Eden Store for Aurum (The Transneural Skill Extractor is analogous to the PLEX service fee in the character bazaar)" |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 23:14:13 -
[6431] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:But if you want math, lets do math: Farmers will set up for 2700 SP/hour or 1,944,000 SP/PLEX TSP is 500k SP PLEX is under 1.2B
Using that estimation TSP cost in PLEX is 308mill isk, which has been stated several times, something someone making appeals to read the thread should know since numbers around 300mill have been thrown around quite a bit.
So again, prove your "500mill minimum." Math doesn't support your conclusion even before considering those accounts already PLEX'd through activities other than SP farming but not training, making them pure profit farms at under 300mill values.
Your maths sucks you just have 1 plex for dual training & 1/3 Plex for injector Injector? What is that? There is no mention of any such component in this proposal.
Further that dual training cert gets you just under 4 TSPs worth of SP.
Hamish McRothimay wrote:Add another PLEX for the extractor
"" A Transneural Skill Packet is created by extracting some of your trained skills and combining them with a GÇÿTransneural Skill ExtractorGÇÖ which can be purchased in the New Eden Store for Aurum (The Transneural Skill Extractor is analogous to the PLEX service fee in the character bazaar)" Keep working on that reading comprehension. "Analogous" is not "equal to." This is the rationale for there being a cost, not the expectation of what that cost should be.
Even if it was that would be 2 PLEX, not one, making the base cost something to the tune of 2.7B isk for 500k SP. That's well beyond anything approaching remotely sensible for the extractor cost.
I'm not sure how much worse your attempt at cost estimation could be here, but between making up a component and erroneously assuming a 1.2B or 2.4B price point for the extractor from a statement that doesn't even say that you have no room to criticize anyone else' attempts. |
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
798
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 23:51:09 -
[6432] - Quote
Nice contradiction - From it is available to all to of course it isn't.
Average wallets at 700 mil?? Where do you get this muck from and, of course if it is true, no-one is plexing accounts and TSP's being introduced is a waste of effort on every ones part. Except CCP make a few bucks from selling Aurum for empty SP packs.
You seem to not be able to answer a post, just spout more crap to heap on your already huge pile.
Seriously "without reason", this is Eve you fool. Most pilots aren't going to farm SP to help others, it will be about making a profit. You put 100 Tsp's on the market for 308 mil - I'll buy the lot and relist them for 450 mil. Yes the cost to produce may be close to 308 mil - You fail to take into account the game you a playing. This is Eve, greed is good.
Market history, plex dropped below 1.2 when CCP ran a discount for a few weeks. Imagine, Eve market is player driven (just for arguments sake), 1.17 is current average now, how long will it take to top 1.2 bil again? (that is 30 mil, how long do you think it might take) I used 1.2 because that was the player driven price before CCP intervened and forced it down a little.
No, again your missing the point, or trying to at least. What I'm saying is (in nice simple terms) - Say TSP packets were produced from a BPO (like most items in game) and those BPO's were available on the market so no Aurum was required to manufacture them. You claim to know how Eve ticks over, use that knowledge to work out the difference between - Player produced and purchased from CCP. Not too long ago plex were 500 mil isk, they are now more than double that price because this is Eve and making a profit is what matters.
Then we have an issue. Not everyone will be able to participate.
.Earlier in the thread someone said they would "give" TSP's away to newbros in corp to help them (great idea), does this create an unfair advantage?
.Some players aren't RL rich but also can't play 30 hours a week to make enough isk to plex their account and buy TSP's, does this create an unfair advantage?
.SP in itself is an advantage for those who have it compared to those who don't. Even if that advantage is because the lower skilled pilot can't fly a Nightmare as well as the guy with higher skills (you can train into a Nightmare in less than a week but without good support skills, it is going to die quicker and be far less efficient) - So are TSP's creating unfair advantage?
.TSP's have diminishing returns, the higher SP you start with the less you get. Is this an unfair advantage? I have a character with 56 mil SP, that I would love to put into a Blops now rather than in 2 months. Why should I be penalized for having 4 mil SP over a contrived limit when a new player with 1 mil SP can train into a Blops by buying less TSP's than I would have to for the same outcome?
I've just spent 2 years training a pilot to fly ONE ship - A brand new character could train the exact skills in as much time as it takes to buy the TSP's and skill books, for far less than it cost me if the price of TSP's is lower than the cost of RL training time - That I would see as an unfair advantage... 7 years of planning and saving made irrelevant because anyone (with isk or money) can now do it instantly.
I firmly believe TSP's are more about another micro transaction and less about "helping" new players. SP is not a barrier to having fun in Eve, you just need to find your niche and with time (and skill training) you can branch out and increase the size of your niche. As I said earlier, when I want carefree fun pvp, I'm not flying a 100 mil SP toon, I log in my FW alt which has around 6 mil SP and just go kill stuff and die a lot.
-- - -- - -- - -- - --
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 00:33:40 -
[6433] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Nice contradiction - From it is available to all to of course it isn't. Nope, no where was it said it wasn't, just that it's up to people to decide if they want to pursue it with their given means, pursues new means, or forgo it altogether.
Sgt Ocker wrote:Average wallets at 700 mil?? Where do you get this muck from and, of course if it is true, no-one is plexing accounts and TSP's being introduced is a waste of effort on every ones part. Except CCP make a few bucks from selling Aurum for empty SP packs.
You seem to not be able to answer a post, just spout more crap to heap on your already huge pile. What am I not answering? Regarding the wallet average I'm using a number provided by Don Zola, but now that I think about it I never really questioned it. Maybe it's time to do so. Fun note though on the matter, unless we have over 1million players the average has to be over 715m/player per the total wallet amounts given here. Now to try to correlate that to characters...
Sgt Ocker wrote:Seriously "without reason", this is Eve you fool. Most pilots aren't going to farm SP to help others, it will be about making a profit. You put 100 Tsp's on the market for 308 mil - I'll buy the lot and relist them for 450 mil. Yes the cost to produce may be close to 308 mil - You fail to take into account the game you a playing. This is Eve, greed is good.
Market history, plex dropped below 1.2 when CCP ran a discount for a few weeks. Imagine, Eve market is player driven (just for arguments sake), 1.17 is current average now, how long will it take to top 1.2 bil again? (that is 30 mil, how long do you think it might take) I used 1.2 because that was the player driven price before CCP intervened and forced it down a little. Interesting thing, the lower the barrier of entry to produce an item, the closer to the base cost an item tends to be due to the direct competition between all the producers and the market manipulators. Really it's all going to depend on how many there are producing TSP. The higher it is, the more the cost will simulate PLEX costs. And since the SP portion of TSP is pretty easy to produce, I'm not convinced it will be scarce enough to separate itself from that. Especially considering training certs can cut the market out completely.
And with diminishing returns demand won't scale with older players, who more and more make up the bulk of buyers. Like with skins it's a losing long term proposition because demand doesn't renew itself as it does with items at risk of actual loss (with the exception of the subsystems folder).
Sgt Ocker wrote:No, again your missing the point, or trying to at least. What I'm saying is (in nice simple terms) - Say TSP packets were produced from a BPO (like most items in game) and those BPO's were available on the market so no Aurum was required to manufacture them. You claim to know how Eve ticks over, use that knowledge to work out the difference between - Player produced and purchased from CCP. Not too long ago plex were 500 mil isk, they are now more than double that price because this is Eve and making a profit is what matters.
Then we have an issue. Not everyone will be able to participate. No, we have no more of an issue either way due to SP having it's base cost discussed above. Participation is already enabled through trade of PLEX and the sale of TSP for isk on the market. Aur doesn't lock anyone out when PLEX is available and cost still locks people out when something has a relative cost to produce. This goes for all items. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 00:45:57 -
[6434] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:.Earlier in the thread someone said they would "give" TSP's away to newbros in corp to help them (great idea), does this create an unfair advantage?
So corps shouldn't offer advantages?
.Some players aren't RL rich but also can't play 30 hours a week to make enough isk to plex their account and buy TSP's, does this create an unfair advantage?
So playing the game shouldn't offer advantages?
.SP in itself is an advantage for those who have it compared to those who don't. Even if that advantage is because the lower skilled pilot can't fly a Nightmare as well as the guy with higher skills (you can train into a Nightmare in less than a week but without good support skills, it is going to die quicker and be far less efficient) - So are TSP's creating unfair advantage?
SP differences aren't created by this proposal, they already exist. TSPs favor those most disadvantaged in function though.
.TSP's have diminishing returns, the higher SP you start with the less you get. Is this an unfair advantage? I have a character with 56 mil SP, that I would love to put into a Blops now rather than in 2 months. Why should I be penalized for having 4 mil SP over a contrived limit when a new player with 1 mil SP can train into a Blops by buying less TSP's than I would have to for the same outcome?
I've just spent 2 years training a pilot to fly ONE ship - A brand new character could train the exact skills in as much time as it takes to buy the TSP's and skill books, for far less than it cost me if the price of TSP's is lower than the cost of RL training time - That I would see as an unfair advantage... 7 years of planning and saving made irrelevant because anyone (with isk or money) can now do it instantly.
How are you penalized? Once that character crosses 50m SP he'll be in the same boat you are. That he chose to go for a black ops while under 50m SP is a difference in choice, denying the capacity to gain other competencies through TSP at the same rate, you on the other hand have been enjoying those competencies prior to the option even being open to the other player. And further you made the choice of what to do with the SP you have so far.
I firmly believe TSP's are more about another micro transaction and less about "helping" new players. SP is not a barrier to having fun in Eve, you just need to find your niche and with time (and skill training) you can branch out and increase the size of your niche. As I said earlier, when I want carefree fun pvp, I'm not flying a 100 mil SP toon, I log in my FW alt which has around 6 mil SP and just go kill stuff and die a lot. -- - -- - -- - -- - --
That's fine, when I'm having fun I'm using whatever character character is appropriate, which may include a character over 100m SP. I see no need to take pride in or feel ashamed for that or suggest others should either. Nor would I use that rationale to suggest others shouldn't pursue high SP characters. Nor do I feel that expanding ones options needs or even should be twisted into some sort of barrier for fun for an agenda. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 01:13:06 -
[6435] - Quote
Are you arguing TSP shouldn't exist because certain people have issues affording it in game while treating it as the one special snow flake item that everyone must have or else not ever be a thing in game?
Further are you arguing that players shouldn't be able to engineer advantages for themselves through gameplay and socialization? Or is this again just in regard to TSP?
|
Toregene Khatun
Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 10:14:28 -
[6436] - Quote
question which i cant seem to find
So if I did remove skill points on skills that I have no use for then those skills would show up as lvl 0 nothing trained on them on skillsheet.
Would I then be able to remove the skill from my skill sheet? |
Poison Isu
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 15:09:49 -
[6437] - Quote
I'm a new player and this seems like a very greedy decision.
------ Story Time
Ok. I played a flash game called "Goodgame Empire" before EVE. It was fun. I played with a group from a forum I like and it was real family like. Then the makers of "Goodgame Empire" just couldn't stop being more and more greedy with their 'pay to win' style game. Eventually they just outright allowed you to use real money to buy the very best stats in the game (armour stuff for your commanders). Before you had to find the armour, it required your time and luck and players who had the high stats from great armour were generally the players who had put the most time in.
So after I had my castles wiped out a bunch of times by these 'super commanders' I quit. You see the fun of the game was either using your troops to attack others with your alliance members or using them to help defend your alliance members against similar attacks. But you could no longer defend against a super commander regardless of how many troops your alliance members sent to your castle. The makers of the game had been selling higher and higher stat armour for real cash and they had now broken the very mechanics of their own game.
I'm not saying EVE is anything like Goodgame Empire. That game was straight garbage. EVE is awesome.
But it's an interesting lesson to be learnt and seems relevant.
tl;dr increasing monetary gains could decrease userbase |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6905
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 15:10:49 -
[6438] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Are you arguing TSP shouldn't exist because certain people have issues affording it in game while treating it as the one special snow flake item that everyone must have or else not ever be a thing in game? I can probably go without tsp, but I wouldn't be able to do much without some sub time.
Let me buy some plex in jita, brb.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6905
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 15:12:09 -
[6439] - Quote
Poison Isu wrote:I'm a new player and this seems like a very greedy decision.
------ Story Time
Ok. I played a flash game called "Goodgame Empire" before EVE. It was fun. I played with a group from a forum I like and it was real family like. Then the makers of "Goodgame Empire" just couldn't stop being more and more greedy with their 'pay to win' style game. Eventually they just outright allowed you to use real money to buy the very best stats in the game (armour stuff for your commanders). Before you had to find the armour, it required your time and luck and players who had the high stats from great armour were generally the players who had put the most time in.
So after I had my castles wiped out a bunch of times by these 'super commanders' I quit. You see the fun of the game was either using your troops to attack others with your alliance members or using them to help defend your alliance members against similar attacks. But you could no longer defend against a super commander regardless of how many troops your alliance members sent to your castle. The makers of the game had been selling higher and higher stat armour for real cash they broke the mechanics of their own game.
I'm not saying EVE is anything like Goodgame Empire. That game was straight garbage. EVE is awesome.
But it's an interesting lesson to be learnt and seems relevant.
tl;dr increasing monetary gains could decrease userbase But SP doesn't work like that.
Also you will soon be able to buy it for isk.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
800
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 07:57:47 -
[6440] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Are you arguing TSP shouldn't exist because certain people have issues affording it in game while treating it as the one special snow flake item that everyone must have or else not ever be a thing in game?
Further are you arguing that players shouldn't be able to engineer advantages for themselves through gameplay and socialization? Or is this again just in regard to TSP?
You know what, for new players it is (very) likely to become a must have item. Who will want to recruit rookies with under 10 mil SP if there is a pool of new players out there with more because they can afford TSP's. Many corps now have minimum SP requirements, will they remain the same or will they go up because "it is easy to get TSP's". You can order new pilots to suit your alliances needs.. Recruiting ad on the forums - minimum 15 mil SP, specialized in (doctrine of the month). Or the alliance that is short on logistics pilots - Minimum 10 mil SP, must have logistics 5 and ___ cruiser 5.
I believe TSP's should remain where they are - An idea. Devaluing the SP of every player who has spent time training it is bad. Allowing it to be brought and sold is a slippery slope toward pay to win - Gold ammo anyone. Don't think it could happen? Wasn't it the CEO of CCP Games who stated something along the lines of, Spending money on Eve will never grant an advantage.
Eve has a minimum amount of SP required to start playing the game - CCP seem to think the amount of SP given to a new account is enough to start playing the game. Time put into the game is all that is required to increase those skill points and open up opportunities to fly more skill intensive ships. (Isn't that how we all did it). The character bazaar exists for those wishing to skip months (or even years) of training, CCP could put some effort into it and make it more user friendly if you want to play around with character training.
-- - -- - -- - -- - -- Is it going to break the game if the guy with 56 mil SP, wanting to train Triage 4 to 5 doesn't have to wait 35 days and could do it by buying the required amount of SP packets and receive 500k SP for each one ? Is it going to break the game if a brand new character with less than 2 mil SP decides to train directly for Triage 5 and carrier 5 by using SP packets to do it? What is the difference between these two characters, aside from the fact, the 1st one has dedicated a few years into training his character and the 2nd did it automatically with no time required other than the time it takes to buy the SP and skill books.
Both have the same end result, carrier 5 + triage 5. One is being given a huge advantage by using a method of payment - The other (who has dedicated possibly years to his character) is forced to wait 35 days..
-- - -- - -- - -- - -- CCP is all but coming out and saying - We don't care about our existing long term customers - I'm not sure what their reason for such harsh diminishing returns is but you can be sure - They have what sounds like a reasonable explanation. Having 2 day old characters skill to lvl5's via payment methods is ok - But existing higher SP players using the same feature is fervently discouraged. That is really showing guys and gals who have dedicated years to EveOnline how valued they are as customers.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1855
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 09:22:43 -
[6441] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:You know what, for new players it is (very) likely to become a must have item. Who will want to recruit rookies with under 10 mil SP if there is a pool of new players out there with more because they can afford TSP's. The same people recruiting them now because in the cases of the newest of players the expectation won't be on them to even fully understand TSP much less actually have dabbled in it. In the case of needing bodies or wanting new players specific SP has never mattered and won't if this goes into effect either.
Sgt Ocker wrote:Many corps now have minimum SP requirements, will they remain the same or will they go up because "it is easy to get TSP's". You can order new pilots to suit your alliances needs.. Recruiting ad on the forums - minimum 15 mil SP, specialized in (doctrine of the month). Or the alliance that is short on logistics pilots - Minimum 10 mil SP, must have logistics 5 and ___ cruiser 5. You can, and some do, but if you are you're clearly after a specific type of character rather than growing your corp. That said if you're just a terrible corp making TSP mandates and neither helping nor offering something worthwhile in return you'll just lose members, as you should for being terrible.
Others will be happy to pick up the slack and provide better corp experiences.
Sgt Ocker wrote:I believe TSP's should remain where they are - An idea. Devaluing the SP of every player who has spent time training it is bad. Allowing it to be brought and sold is a slippery slope toward pay to win - Gold ammo anyone. Don't think it could happen? Wasn't it the CEO of CCP Games who stated something along the lines of, Spending money on Eve will never grant an advantage. SP isn't devalued because it's value lies in what it does via skills, not how scarce it is or if it can be traded. Others gaining SP can't devalue mine, me gaining SP can't devalue someone else'.
Also CCP said the investment of money wouldn't hold an advantage over the investment of time. Note that's not the same as saying that money won't give an advantage. I think that's something being missed here with the invocation of that statement, possibly intentionally so to try and oppose this based on promises that were never actually made.
What CCP has done is allow players to trade money invested in Eve (purchased game time via PLEX) for one of the advantages of investing time in Eve (isk) and let players determine the relative worth. And this isn't an issue because no one is buying an advantage from CCP, just the time of other players at the rates we set. TSP will be no different. The "investment" of time (and money) will continue to be the origin of SP. And spending money will function as it has, as either the price of trading SP or game time for other people active invested time earning isk.
We have no slippery slope. The time for money mechanic is already at the bottom of the chasm.
Sgt Ocker wrote:Eve has a minimum amount of SP required to start playing the game - CCP seem to think the amount of SP given to a new account is enough to start playing the game. Time put into the game is all that is required to increase those skill points and open up opportunities to fly more skill intensive ships. (Isn't that how we all did it). The character bazaar exists for those wishing to skip months (or even years) of training, CCP could put some effort into it and make it more user friendly if you want to play around with character training. And? All those options will still be open and function as they do now, so stating they exists isn't really a coherent opposition to the idea.
Further I'm pretty sure advancing chosen characters, allowing "waste" SP to be sold and providing a much lower cost of entry than the Bazaar are all intended consequences of this idea that no window dressing on the Bazaar could ever replicate.
And what we're talking about has nothing to do with starting SP, so how is bringing that up relevant?
"Is it going to break the game if the guy with 56 mil SP, wanting to train Triage 4 to 5 doesn't have to wait 35 days and could do it by buying the required amount of SP packets and receive 500k SP for each one ? Is it going to break the game if a brand new character with less than 2 mil SP decides to train directly for Triage 5 and carrier 5 by using SP packets to do it?" - Does having another carrier pilot break the game? Or is the game "broken" for you if everyone doesn't have to get triage 5 the exact same way you did? Is it broken because there are more carrier pilots? Because your SP can't enforce a mandatory special status on you that others can't incringe on for years?
"What is the difference between these two characters, aside from the fact, the 1st one has dedicated a few years into training his character and the 2nd did it automatically with no time required other than the time it takes to buy the SP and skill books.
Both have the same end result, carrier 5 + triage 5. One is being given a huge advantage by using a method of payment - The other (who has dedicated possibly years to his character) is forced to wait 35 days.." - Nothing, why does there need to be? Why should there even be? The older character gathered a fraction of the isk the newer one did if he bought that SP in TSP. He actively played the game more, or socialized more, or yes, potentially even just spent a great deal more on PLEX. That 2nd character basically just crushed your supposed "investment." All we did was wait, and we treat it like we earned something why?
All my SP came from a bit of isk I could very well have PLEX'd and making sure my sub doesn't lapse. That doesn't seem like something I can support saying someone else shouldn't have because they weren't here when I got here. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1856
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 09:38:15 -
[6442] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:CCP is all but coming out and saying - We don't care about our existing long term customers - I'm not sure what their reason for such harsh diminishing returns is but you can be sure - They have what sounds like a reasonable explanation. Having 2 day old characters skill to lvl5's via payment methods is ok - But existing higher SP players using the same feature is fervently discouraged. That is really showing guys and gals who have dedicated years to EveOnline how valued they are as customers. Has it occurred to you that you're issues figuring out the reason are related to an erroneous assumption of not caring about their veteran customers? I'd put a bill in game on them caring and that actually being the reason, but some people turning their disagreement over the method of trying to protect their vets into an assumption of malice.
The concept at hand isn't difficult, for some the idea of "pure" characters that haven't used TSP will be a thing, as will not wanting TSP'd characters at the top of SP lists. In defense of this some even proposed hard capping SP injection disallowing use of TSP completely.
And while the biggest reason for this IS the preference of new players, consider for a moment that it was done to make the chance of them obtaining them more equal to older players through making older players not want them as much further driving demand.
Beyond that consider that maybe such a skew can prefer non-vets without giving vets the finger since everything that doesn't directly benefit a group isn't an insult to that group or even apathetic to them. Maybe we should think about those vets who don't want 400m+ SP characters to be built efficiently if at all.
Maybe we should get over ourselves and realize that the combined advantages of experience, skill and SP are the gift from CCP that keeps giving and accept it graciously even if we can't run with TSP as fast as our real and in game wallets can carry us. |
manasi
EVE University Ivy League
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 20:15:32 -
[6443] - Quote
I have been playing this game a Very long time (5-30-2003), many seem to think "oh he has a bazillion SP so he wont mind if we get it faster will they?"
Figure out a way to honor those who have been with you for a long(er) time, If the measurement is no longer SP and becomes something else, not a problem. Change the SP, to allow players to (inject skills) fly ships they really want.
Vets just don't want to be forgotten, they have contributed too. 8)
In the end isn't this about getting people to fly the ships they want to even faster?
You want feedback from a guy play this game for almost 13 years? You have it, do with it what you will. |
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
801
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 20:48:37 -
[6444] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:CCP is all but coming out and saying - We don't care about our existing long term customers - I'm not sure what their reason for such harsh diminishing returns is but you can be sure - They have what sounds like a reasonable explanation. Having 2 day old characters skill to lvl5's via payment methods is ok - But existing higher SP players using the same feature is fervently discouraged. That is really showing guys and gals who have dedicated years to EveOnline how valued they are as customers. Has it occurred to you that you're issues figuring out the reason are related to an erroneous assumption of not caring about their veteran customers? I'd put a bill in game on them caring and that actually being the reason, but some people turning their disagreement over the method of trying to protect their vets into an assumption of malice. The concept at hand isn't difficult, for some the idea of "pure" characters that haven't used TSP will be a thing, as will not wanting TSP'd characters at the top of SP lists. In defense of this some even proposed hard capping SP injection disallowing use of TSP completely. And while the biggest reason for this IS the preference of new players, consider for a moment that it was done to make the chance of them obtaining them more equal to older players through making older players not want them as much further driving demand. Beyond that consider that maybe such a skew can prefer non-vets without giving vets the finger since everything that doesn't directly benefit a group isn't an insult to that group or even apathetic to them. Maybe we should think about those vets who don't want 400m+ SP characters to be built efficiently if at all. Maybe we should get over ourselves and realize that the combined advantages of experience, skill and SP are the gift from CCP that keeps giving and accept it graciously even if we can't run with TSP as fast as our real and in game wallets can carry us. Who's making assumptions? You don't think existing players will use this to create characters with specific skills simply to by pass "time"? Another reason TSP should never be available; An existing player with a 100 mil Sp character can create a max skilled alt for any class of ship (from frigate to titan and everything in between) within minutes - Very different to a new character doing the same, these guys know the game mechanics and can use those purchased skills efficiently. Advantage who?
Simple answer for your 400 mil SP issue - Limit the amount of TSP's a player with over 50 mil sp (or whatever number you choose) can use, say 4 per year (2 mil SP), to help finish off that desired lvl 5 skill. Simple really. Possibly too simple. The way diminishing returns are it feels like CCP is saying, Screw you, you don't deserve to use this feature.
All that aside, I have my opinion you have yours. Arguing it here achieves nothing but to keep me from actually playing the game. I'm done..
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1856
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 21:28:47 -
[6445] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Who's making assumptions? You don't think existing players will use this to create characters with specific skills simply to by pass "time"? Another reason TSP should never be available; An existing player with a 100 mil Sp character can create a max skilled alt for any class of ship (from frigate to titan and everything in between) within minutes - Very different to a new character doing the same, these guys know the game mechanics and can use those purchased skills efficiently. Advantage who? Wait, hold on. Back up for a sec. Did you just pivot from "CCP is all but coming out and saying - We don't care about our existing long term customers" to "You don't think existing players will use this to create characters with specific skills simply to by pass "time"?"
So essentially what we're seeing is that you'll argue whatever makes TSP look bad without an ounce of consistency. A system that allows older players to create tailored alts at will is CCPs way of saying they don't care about those players?
To be honest the point you bring up is a significant concern, but one ultimately capped by the fact that a) creating alts doesn't increase the capacity to fly those characters simultaneously and b) unless we see a large jump in multi-account holding we're also not going to see players doing it to "pass time" regularly due just to not having the slots to make it regular.
Sgt Ocker wrote:Simple answer for your 400 mil SP issue - Limit the amount of TSP's a player with over 50 mil sp (or whatever number you choose) can use, say 4 per year (2 mil SP), to help finish off that desired lvl 5 skill. Simple really. Possibly too simple. The way diminishing returns are it feels like CCP is saying, Screw you, you don't deserve to use this feature.
All that aside, I have my opinion you have yours. Arguing it here achieves nothing but to keep me from actually playing the game. I'm done.. Complains about the system preferring new players and says it's proof they don't care about older players.
Suggests an even greater hard restriction on use.
Yeah, I'm sticking with my initial conclusion because the only key difference between your idea and theirs is that you came up with yours, while they came up with theirs.
As a side question, why would you let this conversation keep you from playing?
|
Erotisk Folkdans
Club Autism
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.16 11:59:51 -
[6446] - Quote
Just wanted to add my .02 ISK and say that I think the SP trading proposal sounds great and I would love to see it implemented yesterday already! |
Sentenced 1989
191
|
Posted - 2016.01.16 17:16:57 -
[6447] - Quote
So, is there any concrete timeframe for this?
The Incursion Guild
Epic Arc Guide
|
Max Kurtis
Maple Moose The Bastion
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.17 08:42:30 -
[6448] - Quote
Start eve 2 weeks before and I vote for ! plz add this feature in the game and I will continue my subscription... witheout no ... |
Erotisk Folkdans
Club Autism
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.17 10:12:12 -
[6449] - Quote
I hope it's on track. For us newish players it would be such an awesome feature to be able to catch up a little without resorting to the character bazaar. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2481
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 00:00:23 -
[6450] - Quote
1) Train alt to PVP / other purpose. 2) Play purpose alt and make ISK 3) Stop training purpose alt 4) Train another main character with +5 implants and skill maps.
This skill injection thing will widen the gap. Those with ISK can generate their perfect alts instead of buying what is available on the bizarre with their faults and histories.
This thread could have done with a poll.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
|
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Erotisk Folkdans
Club Autism
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 00:33:45 -
[6451] - Quote
Why would I care if people get "perfect" alts? Good for them. If that is what they want in their ocd world.
Newish players would be able to train the skills they feel is needed to be competitive in one or a few fields they enjoy, in a more reasonable time frame. It's awesome.
I'm sure there are adjustments to be made to the proposal in the dev blog, but the general idea is great.
A poll in the forums would be useless. Most people in these forums don't seem to care about what is good for the game long term.
A poll that was mailed out to all players, including those who quit, would perhaps be useful. |
Gin Sling
Karma Is For Bitches Sunshine and Gunpowder
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:58:03 -
[6452] - Quote
Is it possible to hang in Jita atm?
Lieing cockroaches.
Gin o7 |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1319
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:08:55 -
[6453] - Quote
This will just make it more difficult for those who don't have or don't want to spend a lot of RL money to play Eve. I've played and still play a few pay to win (P2W) games but can't compete since it's not uncommon for people to drop 10,000 USD on some of these games. I've seen people spend over ten times that.
Just from a purely business perspective CCP should consider if profits from those who spend a bunch of RL money will be more than the many that leave the game because they can't. Also will that group stay longer or just get bored and stop playing. It may be that financially it makes more sense to adopt a P2W model.
I won't say I'll stop playing Eve just because it becomes P2W but I will cut back because I don't invest too much in those games as a rule. Again that's just me and others may be more welcoming of the change, |
J0rj Lmoz
EVE University Ivy League
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:42:24 -
[6454] - Quote
Is it going to have, a limit to the number of times we can inject/extract skill points per time ?
Or an alliance/players with unlimited resources now is going to be able to make all his alts fly Titans in one month ?
With a limited number of injection/extraction of skills per time, will make this a good thing, making impossible or at least unrewarding to skill farming, without that CCP is taking away the rewards of time dedication to the Game, and making Eve a even more P2W without any rewards for being playing the game for more than one year. |
Gaufres
Just Keep Hanging On
67
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:46:19 -
[6455] - Quote
I do not like to threaten, but I think CCP is making a serious mistake with this. I am going to see how it goes, but I am seriously thinking about canceling my account and giving all my stuff to my corpmates. This game is and has been taking some seriously bad turns for a while now. I do not really know who they thing they are "helping" with this, but I see it as a huge hit to the older players. |
Jayden Thomas
Manson Family Advent of Fate
9
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:07:56 -
[6456] - Quote
Devs are no longer the bright sparks of the CCP think tank. They are now the shady, fund raising Aurum salesman of Hilmar Veigar P+¬tursson. "Quick, more ship skins!"
It's not a sandbox if people can correct their mistakes. "Buy our plex! Fix those bad training decisions!" |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1856
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:25:09 -
[6457] - Quote
IIshira wrote:This will just make it more difficult for those who don't have or don't want to spend a lot of RL money to play Eve. How?
Jayden Thomas wrote:It's not a sandbox if people can correct their mistakes. I'm not sure sandbox means what you think it means. |
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3303
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:38:31 -
[6458] - Quote
Given that it is no longer in the 'explore' phase and into the 'gonna happen' I suggest this thread close and we shift to https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6283770#post6283770 instead
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3101
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:21:41 -
[6459] - Quote
Sad that it is going to happen, but inevitable given that CCP simply want (need) more of our money.
The bit that sticks in my craw is the pretence that it is for the benefit of 'new' players to enable them to close the skills gap.
A money grab is a money grab, however it is presented.
This is not a signature.
|
Sergeant L
CPE1704TKS SWARTA.
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:23:16 -
[6460] - Quote
CCP, How about a counter proposal to help EVE continue and let lower player get rewarded for their play time. I think its time before we loose more new players to continue the system in place with passive training but start a new phase for exp. That's right I am talking about all of those players that put allot of time into playing. Time for some rewards and fighting for exp. CCP how about this: Just like you did with the blood raiders expansion which was cool, a way to speed up training. Lets face it the whole player base went wild! So, lets spice it up. Drop the following loot from killing the NPC's and sleepers in a small box container with SP to put wherever you want just right click and it becomes free skill points or sell it on the market in some given CCP determined block increments but drop the following in the loot for PVE: Frig: 1 sp, Cruiser: 3 sp, BS 5 sp, bigger ship 10 sp. PVP frig kill (5) (noob ships don't count) Cruiser (15sp), BS (25), Cap (100) and Titan (1000). Of course none of these are automatic either and drop with the loot of the killed enemy. Time for some wonderful scrapping over wrecks and loots. You saw what blood raiders did, imagine the rush on this! Can we say fighting and of course for CCP Plex as people sell and buy like mad to get ahead! Please stop using the excuse of old players get squeezed and will quit. They need to grow up, we need new blood for EVE to continue! Cheers! |
|
Ein Herje
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 04:14:24 -
[6461] - Quote
Yes I can understand to a certain extent where CCP is coming from with this, it will be awsome to get more players into the game, but don't you also think that there should be a cap so that older players don't feel like it's all been a waste for them, subscribing all this time getting all those skills up there?
Say something like 60-80 mill skillpoints you can make an awsome whatever pilot with that. (I think) I don't care about the finance, I want CCP to earn money I have nothing against that, but let it still be something special to have accumulated 100 of millions of skillpoints. The old players have carried the game this far by keeping their subs active you know. And the new brave eve pilots as well of course. (I am not referring to any entities ingame.)
But yes pay to win is always bad for any game. Someone at CCP should just figure out how much skills it takes to get dreads or carriers skills to lvl 4 everything included reps cap transfer and siege/triage and cap it right there.Also do the same for the industry aspect of the game try to find somewhere lvl 4 something something industry wise add it together divide by two and theres your cap.
Well I know that there are many aspects of eve that I have not included it's an awsome game with lots of possibilities. I read some of the forums and people who welcome this say that ah yes and still you can always go to the character bazaar and get a 200 + mill char instantly. I doubt it that someone who started playing eve yesterday has 150+ billion to buy these high skillpoints chars.
I welcome it with open arms if there would be implemented a cap for it. |
James- Taylor
Valor Evolved Order of Allied Knights
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:18:36 -
[6462] - Quote
If CCP implements this im done with EVE...................Im somewhat new and i dont agree with this at all. |
seronea
An My I N F A M O U S
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 11:59:50 -
[6463] - Quote
makes me sad seeing you boxing that trough, ignoring all this no's. |
0bama Barack Hussein
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
78
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:12:57 -
[6464] - Quote
James- Taylor wrote:If CCP implements this im done with EVE...................Im somewhat new and i dont agree with this at all.
Yeah they went for it, new thread here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=465295&find=unread |
Snitches Laden
Dank Meme Division
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 15:01:20 -
[6465] - Quote
Okay so for the most part I see "bitter vets" stating this is bad, this is terrible, but not explaining why this is bad or this is terrible which would lead me to conclude that it cuts into their elite status of having mongo sp from playing forever. And for those that have been playing for a long time have every right to feel such a way because this is going to erase that elitist gap of having to wait years to accomplish your goals.
So now that that is out of the way I would like to point out something that everyone seems to constantly ignore. What's the difference between buying a character off of the character bazaar and buying a skill point pack? other than the functionality it's virtually the same. when you look for characters on the bazaar you look for the skills. What you want verus what it has, and sometimes you get everything other times you have to make sacrifices. Than the bidding starts, this character is more valuable than this other character but the other has less skill points. with the sp packs you the buyer decide where those points are spent, and the value of the sp are fixed so that if placed in skill a it will cost the same if placed in group b.
We've all met the person in this game with more money than they know what to do with, they purchase a capital toon, get a bunch of caps and derp em. You know why right? It's not because they have a crap ton of skill points they purchased off of the character bazaar. It's because they lack the understanding on how the game works, one of the biggest reasons I love to play this game is for the social aspect of it. Caps go to Arridia to die someone once told me. I don't know why but I believe it and don't fly **** over there, not to mention ships in this game regardless of how many skill points fly completely different and require a different rl skill set and mind set to successfully operate. So allowing someone to spend a couple of grand to inject skills into their toon isn't going to break the game, because they still won't be able to inject time, and understanding.
To the "bitter vets" out there that are viewing this as bad, i'm unsubbing, attitude realize one thing please. You will always have my envy and respect if for no other reason than you've put your time in. Most of the newer players have a similar sentiment on the situation. But understand that the reason your still able to play this game is because there are those that have come after you and followed your trail blazing and wish to emulate what you've become. You are a dinosaur and every year due to real life happening the dinosuars are slowly going extinct. CCP is allowing you the opportunity to inject new life into this game, the skill points won't change the learning difficulty, it won't change the volumes of knowledge needed to thrive in this game, and it won't change the fact that you need critical thinking skills. Change is difficult, if it wasn't everyone would be able to do it.
I would say before you liquefy or unsub, think about that guy who's gonna drop 3 grand to sp the crap out of their toon, and ask how can I teach this person to enjoy the game so they don't waste my time or theirs, and how can I continue to make this game a thriving community. |
Sniffwomang
Masters and Mistresses
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 15:51:28 -
[6466] - Quote
horrible idea, please do not go through with this, this is literally paying to win, since a lot of things require training for and time to put into it you can simply pay money for it and get it right away. This is one thing I liked about eve no matter how much ISK you have you still needed to skills and practice to use it effectively, this takes away half of that challenge.
DO NOT GO THROUGH WITH THIS!
A concerned player.
Sniff |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1321
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 16:47:03 -
[6467] - Quote
Sniffwomang wrote:horrible idea, please do not go through with this, this is literally paying to win, since a lot of things require training for and time to put into it you can simply pay money for it and get it right away. This is one thing I liked about eve no matter how much ISK you have you still needed to skills and practice to use it effectively, this takes away half of that challenge.
DO NOT GO THROUGH WITH THIS!
A concerned player.
Sniff
CCP has already decided to go through with it. When it comes down to it they're a business so they're going to do whatever it is they feel makes them the most money. Some people might say "They don't care about their player base"... Of course they don't!... You can fall off a cliff as long as your credit card information is updated by your family CCP is good to go. That sounds rude but that's the same with any business. At least in the USA where I am located.
Now as I said before they only care about money so if they see the extra money they're making from selling SP is being offset by a loss of subscriptions then they will rethink the idea. Do I think this will happen?... Probably not. The pay to win idea is so popular because it's just like real life. If you have a lot of money you do well. Just like in real life people who want to outclass others will spend the money to do so.
Do I personally like the idea... No but that's only because I'm not one who can drop 10k for a video game. This is why I don't really get into pay to win games. Perhaps if I had that kind of money I would think it was an awesome idea. |
Ashlar Vellum
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
228
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 18:12:33 -
[6468] - Quote
This thread is pure gold, ty CCP.
Snitches Laden wrote: bunch of nonsense.
lol yeah, #"make EVE great, again". |
Alexxei
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
23
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 20:13:54 -
[6469] - Quote
seronea wrote:makes me sad seeing you boxing that trough, ignoring all this no's. For the 20 or so no's from angry bitter nerds theres about 200,000 yes's |
Talon Calais
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:03:54 -
[6470] - Quote
I think it's a great idea with the exception of "diminishing returns". As someone who will never fly a Capital Ship again after the implementation of Jump Fatigue I very much like the idea of being able to reallocate those skill points to myself or one of my alts, but not if it's going to cost me a bazillion isk. Please don't penalize people for having too many skill points, your vets are every bit as much important to this game as new players. |
|
A Ingus
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
91
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:49:06 -
[6471] - Quote
Alexxei wrote:seronea wrote:makes me sad seeing you boxing that trough, ignoring all this no's. For the 20 or so no's from angry bitter nerds theres about 200,000 yes's We have always been at war with Eastasia.
Amirite? |
MECHcore
Evil Celes Death from Above..
45
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 00:15:57 -
[6472] - Quote
234m SP here took me 12 years.
A new player with a rich daddy and hes credit card will be able to do that in a month.
Hmm i might eventually change to another MMO.
Quote:Achieving something in this game is not about hard work, skill and experience anymore, but by credit card. - MECHcore
Shame on you CCP !!1 |
Mister Holder
Faceless Men
40
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 00:31:59 -
[6473] - Quote
I've read through quite a bit of the posts in here, and not once does anyone give a real argument as to why this is a bad idea. So please, someone enlighten me as to how this is bad for Eve.
As it stands, right at this moment, I can go load up on a crap ton of PLEX to purchase a 200m+ SP toon. Or I could purchase a toon that has the exact skill set that I want with no waste.
When the skill exchange is implemented, I can load up on a crap ton of PLEX, and build a 200m+ SP toon the way I want it with the name/race/etc that I want. This, I would assume, will be at a MUCH higher cost than it would be to purchase a similar toon with 200m+ SP from the bazaar via selling PLEX.
How exactly is this different, and "bad", and "wrong" from using direct plex purchases to turn into isk to turn into a toon? It seems, to me at least, that I can make a toon exactly how I want it instead of getting someone else's trash they no longer want.
Now, if you want to complain that there are diminishing returns the higher SP you go with the skill injections go right ahead. I hear you on that, and it annoys me as well. Otherwise, this is no different than using the character bazaar to purchase a toon. |
Nakito Kobara
Yamagata Syndicate Yulai Federation
59
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 00:56:42 -
[6474] - Quote
Having played since beta I have to say this move seems to go far away from Eves original concept. Pay to just jump into any ship you want just doesn't sit well with me. Eve has sold is soul...
Yamagata Syndicate - Null sec combat corporation. Join today!
|
Jayden Thomas
Manson Family Advent of Fate
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 01:10:38 -
[6475] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:IIshira wrote:This will just make it more difficult for those who don't have or don't want to spend a lot of RL money to play Eve. How? With more uses for plex (Aurum), plex prices rise. For those of us not wanting to spend real money on EVE, rising plex prices pushes us out. Which is what CCP wants I imagine: more people who feel this game is worth $100 a year. Jayden Thomas wrote:It's not a sandbox if people can correct their mistakes. I'm not sure sandbox means what you think it means.
One big part of a sandbox is that each decision you make carries weight. Skill training is a very long process, ie a BIG decision. Allowing people to take shortcuts (or fix mistakes) in this incredibly long process sort of takes the weight out of the decision, at least for those of us that aren't paying CCP for ISK. Yup, lookin at you PLEX buyers. If you're one of the countless people who buy ISK, then I'm sure you see nothing wrong with this process. It cuts corners, it's quick, and gives you everything the veteran eve players have in exchange for real life cash.
I'm also bummed that CCP continues to cater to the newer and younger EVE pilots. Where's the love for their veteran players? How about free subscriptions if you have more than 5 years of game time on your account?
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1859
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 01:20:49 -
[6476] - Quote
Jayden Thomas wrote:One big part of a sandbox is that each decision you make carries weight. Skill training is a very long process, ie a BIG decision. Allowing people to take shortcuts (or fix mistakes) in this incredibly long process sort of takes the weight out of the decision, at least for those of us that aren't paying CCP for ISK. Yup, lookin at you PLEX buyers. If you're one of the countless people who buy ISK, then I'm sure you see nothing wrong with this process. It cuts corners, it's quick, and gives you everything the veteran eve players have in exchange for real life cash.
I'm also bummed that CCP continues to cater to the newer and younger EVE pilots. Where's the love for their veteran players? How about free subscriptions if you have more than 5 years of game time on your account? I'm not a person who buys isk, but I'm also not a person who expects a company that sells isk to adhere to the rules I make for myself and how I get isk. Nor am I willing to pretend the rules are something other than what they are because I don't take part is certain parts of them.
That aside, the weight of a choice doesn't actually define a sandbox. To a degree it may define THIS sandbox, but isn't an integral part of what a sandbox is. That's because this sandbox actually touts consequence as a selling point (while offering every way conceivable to circumvent it, PLEX being rather benign amongst other methods). And being a sandbox never means anything has to be permanent.
Fact of the matter though is that this idea does have consequence, just not the same consequence we were restricted to before. This isn't a boolean decision between permanence and inconsequential remapping. This is another in between, and a decently balanced one at that. |
Jayden Thomas
Manson Family Advent of Fate
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 01:59:37 -
[6477] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
That aside, the weight of a choice doesn't actually define a sandbox. To a degree it may define THIS sandbox, but isn't an integral part of what a sandbox is. That's because this sandbox actually touts consequence as a selling point (while offering every way conceivable to circumvent it, PLEX being rather benign amongst other methods). And being a sandbox never means anything has to be permanent.
Fact of the matter though is that this idea does have consequence, just not the same consequence we were restricted to before. This isn't a boolean decision between permanence and inconsequential remapping. This is another in between, and a decently balanced one at that.
It is worth $100 a year or more, whether you pay it yourself or someone else does. CCP doesn't actually need you to sub, and PLEX buyers doing so get them less money, so why would they want players saying the game is worth $100 a year when those players are currently paying ~$200 per year.
I agree, things don't have to be permanent. But I think skill training is slow enough, it should be permanent. Core skills will always be needed. And while some may think "dang I trained Gallente cruiser before Minmatar cruiser, the fact is one day, somewhere, you'll use it. For those that spent weeks training mining skills (you poor souls), I prefer to look on those the same way I look at my first loss-mails, mistakes as a noob. Can I get SRP from CCP for those lossmails now? Ha!
CCP does need us to sub, whether we pay or not. MMORPG's are popular because there are real life players in the game with you. If CCP pushes out all the non-paying players, I guarantee EVE would die.
PLEX buyers give them MORE money. PLEX buyers have to pay for a subscription AND isk. Not sure about your logic.. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1859
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 02:13:11 -
[6478] - Quote
Jayden Thomas wrote:I agree, things don't have to be permanent. But I think skill training is slow enough, it should be permanent. Core skills will always be needed. And while some may think "dang I trained Gallente cruiser before Minmatar cruiser, the fact is one day, somewhere, you'll use it. For those that spent weeks training mining skills (you poor souls), I prefer to look on those the same way I look at my first loss-mails, mistakes as a noob. Can I get SRP from CCP for those lossmails now? Ha! SRP isn't an system created by or maintained by CCP, it has nothing to do with what we're talking about as a purely social construct. Insurance on the other hand has been doing exactly what you just suggested since it was created.
But with the words "I think skill training is slow enough, it should be permanent" we have what I was pointing out: That's just like, your opinion man. It's certainly not a defining trait of a sandbox.
Quote:CCP does need us to sub, whether we pay or not. MMORPG's are popular because there are real life players in the game with you. If CCP pushes out all the non-paying players, I guarantee EVE would die. That makes a large assumption about the PLEX dependent population, one we don't have enough information to discuss further.
Jayden Thomas wrote:PLEX buyers give them MORE money. PLEX buyers have to pay for a subscription AND isk. Not sure about your logic.. PLEX buyers (in game) turning to sub players gets CCP less money exactly because PLEX cost more than a sub as stated, you were the one saying CCP wanted rid of those players rather than having them consume PLEX. |
Samus Arkain
Remnants of the Forgotten Seekers of the Unseen
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 09:20:09 -
[6479] - Quote
I don't normally post on these forums. However, I will quit this game if it becomes as simple as a big wallet pays for skills. I have worked for years training a very specific skill plan, and the game will ruin such accomplishments overnight by this action. I have long tried to ignore the rumors that CCP no longer listens to its players and just does what it wants. However, in the most recent post they claim that a lot of players seem on board with this idea. A quick look through this set of comments show that is untrue. Clearly a great deal of players are upset with the idea, and you are more than likely about to make another decision that will significantly damage this game. Many players aren't even aware of what you're about to do, and when I notified them, they were very upset. Sadly, it's a decision that cannot be undone once made, as many characters will already be significantly altered only days after this action. So please, see it for what it is now, and do not ruin this excellent game.
TL:DR? Don't do it.
Sea. |
Roc Wind
Light of the moon Fraternity.
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 12:55:08 -
[6480] - Quote
I am not an active player but I have been training my character since 2011. I spend 5 years to reach 100 m skill points and what makes me continue to be an EVE player is that in EVE the skill points is priceless, only the time matters. CCP, I am an old player and if you just evaluate me by the money I spent in EVE I will be very sad and you will be totally wrong. In the past I could introduce to my friend the EVE game proudly because it is sophisticated and need real time to learn skill, but now I can only say it is good because you can get skill very quickly. I miss the time I got up in midnight to update my skill, I miss the time I traveled everywhere with my laptop in order to update my skill and I miss the time I lost my internet and begged my friend to help me update my skill. I treasure the skill points because you can't buy it, just like you can't buy the time. I felt EVE was like the real life, only time will teach me how to be a mature man. Now, honestly speaking, I can't stand some new guys could catch up with me on the skill points with some ISK. Once money could dominate a society in most aspects, no matter virtual or real, the society will be no longer suitable for living.
I think it is time to leave my favorite EVE after you implement this mechanic. I have no reason to stay in this cruel and money-mad world. |
|
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1324
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 19:22:42 -
[6481] - Quote
Roc Wind wrote:I am not an active player but I have been training my character since 2011. I spend 5 years to reach 100 m skill points and what makes me continue to be an EVE player is that in EVE the skill points is priceless, only the time matters. CCP, I am an old player and if you just evaluate me by the money I spent in EVE I will be very sad and you will be totally wrong. In the past I could introduce to my friend the EVE game proudly because it is sophisticated and need real time to learn skill, but now I can only say it is good because you can get skill very quickly. I miss the time I got up in midnight to update my skill, I miss the time I traveled everywhere with my laptop in order to update my skill and I miss the time I lost my internet and begged my friend to help me update my skill. I treasure the skill points because you can't buy it, just like you can't buy the time. I felt EVE was like the real life, only time will teach me how to be a mature man. Now, honestly speaking, I can't stand some new guys could catch up with me on the skill points with some ISK. Once money could dominate a society in most aspects, no matter virtual or real, the society will be no longer suitable for living.
I think it is time to leave my favorite EVE after you implement this mechanic. I have no reason to stay in this cruel and money-mad world.
Don't quit just yet... I think it still can be a fun game. I'll still play but since they made it where can buy SP it just took some of my love of the game away. I'll probably condense the pilots I like most to one (maybe two) account and just keep it subbed. That's probably not a bad thing because I spend too much time in the virtual world and not enough in the real one.
I even thought about a ganking alt... Nothing like getting blown up by a one day old max skilled Catalyst pilot. I can help bring joyous PVP fun to some of the whiny players CCP has been catering too
The recent changes to Eve remind me of the changes to WoW that started a while back. People cried that something was hard so they made it easier... For a price of course. Don't feel like leveling up your toon?... Just enter those credit card digits and get it instantly leveled. Feel like an idiot because you made a bad choice in race or class?... No problem again credit card numbers please. I guess this is how RL is headed too. People want things handed to them so naturally it's going to reflect in what game companies offer. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1324
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 19:40:41 -
[6482] - Quote
Jayden Thomas wrote:One big part of a sandbox is that each decision you make carries weight. Skill training is a very long process, ie a BIG decision. Allowing people to take shortcuts (or fix mistakes) in this incredibly long process sort of takes the weight out of the decision, at least for those of us that aren't paying CCP for ISK. I'd agree that the sandbox has changed. You mentioned the whole consequences for your mistakes but this is nothing new. Look at the clone changes. Remember when you had to buy a clone and if you were too stupid to you lost SP?
Jayden Thomas wrote:I'm also bummed that CCP continues to cater to the newer and younger EVE pilots. Where's the love for their veteran players? How about free subscriptions if you have more than 5 years of game time on your account? This has been going on for a while. Loyalty is great and all but if they can do something that attracts five noobs that means more subscriptions. They're paying the same monthly subscription for their 900k SP pilot as your 100m one. Even if you quit they're still up four subs. Now lets say even if only two of the original five continue to play after a few months they just doubled their subscriptions. Combine this with making more ways to spend RL cash and their profits go up! I hate to say it but CCP is going to profit from this at least in the short run.
|
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
696
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 20:48:17 -
[6483] - Quote
What will happen of course is people will train their own alts and inject the points they gain through multi-training into their main, speeding up the training process in the extreme. If that's what you're after.. congrats.. Also say you have a really nasty character with a terrible rep.. he scammed a ton of people and stole a whole bank worth of ISK... Owner shaves off the skills and profits on an anonymous and easier to play character - thus, in theory, escaping some of the consequences his actions ...and in effect changing his character name.
It's a interesting twist in the "selling skill points" idea... I'm not sure I could accept it.
-á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1324
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 21:11:21 -
[6484] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:What will happen of course is people will train their own alts and inject the points they gain through multi-training into their main, speeding up the training process in the extreme. If that's what you're after.. congrats.. Also say you have a really nasty character with a terrible rep.. he scammed a ton of people and stole a whole bank worth of ISK... Owner shaves off the skills and profits on an anonymous and easier to play character - thus, in theory, escaping some of the consequences his actions ...and in effect changing his character name.
It's a interesting twist in the "selling skill points" idea... I'm not sure I could accept it. Yea that's another interesting concept that will happen. People will recycle their SP into new pilots... This is one way to get away from a killboard or bad rep that you no longer want to have.
One main complaint I have about this is they should make it fair to older high SP pilots. I don't see how this would hurt newer pilots and it would still allow older pilots to use the feature. 70 percent SP loss is just silly. If you're going to make the game "New player friendly" it's whatever but you don't need to be hostile towards older players... Even noobs become veterans at some point. I still remember my first Cormorant fitted with a mix of blasters, railguns, and autocannons... |
Tobias Lee
0rizen Irregulars Sev3rance
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 20:49:34 -
[6485] - Quote
I have been playing EVE since 2003, I do not agree with this and will have 8 months subscription remaining in February, if this happens I want the rest of my game time refunded cause I will quit. |
Captain IQ
Innocent Traders Ltd
68
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 00:02:11 -
[6486] - Quote
Even though I suspect this is a foregone conclusion, I'll just putting my hands up to say "Don't Do It!!"
|
Vanessa Mangeiri
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 08:09:12 -
[6487] - Quote
If you remove all the SP for a skill is the skill removed?
Or does it still remain injected?
Those of us with OCD would like to know. |
Tamreal Orti
Random Reality
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 14:23:37 -
[6488] - Quote
Hate the Idea of PAY to Win. So now you want to introduce an opportunity for players to BUY the SP's needed to be a success in the game. If you want to put something else on the market for players to buy with their ISK open the market to LP trading. I and many others always need more LP than we can generate alone, at least with LP trading the acquisition would not bypass TRAINING time that SHOULD be EARNED not bought. |
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 14:40:59 -
[6489] - Quote
can't w8 for this. as a new player, the ability to get 500k skill points fast is GREAT for trying out new ships and getting into the game (Manticore, Confessor, Jackdaw, Retriever, Covetor, maybe even a cov ops venture)
its a much needed boost for new players =D
so this way, instead of w8ing for 2 WEEKS to get a mining barge, or cov ops ship, or t3 destroyer. i can pay a bit and get it now.
which beats w8ing 2 WEEKS, during which time i get bored w8ing and wander off to other games because fk w8ing 2 weeks in the venture to get a mining barge =/
(no seriously. as much as i like Kestrel. w8ing 2 weeks to get manticore is lame. on top of that i cant use manticore effectively until i get cloaking 4..so thats another few days. oh and torpedos. so another few days....and so on.....it really adds up) |
voids
Deep Space Exploitation Federal United Battalion of Armed Renegades
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 21:52:44 -
[6490] - Quote
I have been watching this and I say it makes sense, even more so it also makes sense to have name changes , quite simple really, if you want to escape a bad char you already can by buying a new char You want to get more skill points you can again; buy a new char , so what does it really matter that someone swipes skill points from alt to a main or vice versa its gonna cost them either way , however I do feel that it is bad to penalize sp period, after all everyone still has to pay for injectors or the other part so penalizing sp that was hard earned over the years (with real life money and time) seems silly imho if you want to limit amount of sp limit it but don't take it away. make special injectors for levels that will only extract and supply 150k -500k 1-50m sp gets 500k injectors 50 to 100m sp gets 250k injectors and 100-200m gets 150k injectors. |
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
134
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 23:12:25 -
[6491] - Quote
Opinion on pricing of the Skill Extractor:
This is an extract from some searching I did. Original poster was Tony Moor:
(Lowest Possible SP per hour) "Previously the lowest possible sp/hr was 450. This was if you had 5 for both applicable attributes, no learning skills and no implants (although this ignores the fact that it was in fact possible to have an attribute below 5 on certain racial types if you had never remapped)
Now the minimum sp/hr is 1,530. This is with minimum attributes of 17 and no implants.
So, assuming no gaps in training, the minimum you will now earn in an average length month (30.417 days) is 1,116,900."
If this still holds true, I think the extractors should be priced at a decent $10-$15 bucks (USD). Pretty high, in my opinion, but it will average to about twice that amount in the market after the boom, i'd say. What people are basically paying for is the extractor cost and the accumulation of time, in terms of the 500k SP gained, required to fill a single extractor.
Median SP per hour was averaged to about 2000? I think this leaves plenty of room for fair trading in what they decide their time is worth, along with how much they think the extractor is worth after AURUM - which would fall to about 2000-2500 AUR. In the end, they will be nearly as expensive as what a PLEX is going for ATM. 2000 is not a bad number, as it would land on the mid-point AUR package as a sweet spot for acquiring two extractors.
So, about $10 bucks (USD) along with what equates to half a month of training pumped into an injector. That would round out easily to an ETC. I could live with that. And more importantly, noobs that would find this most appealing could live with that cost too. I doubt very much you will be seeing much P2W scenarios with this price point. It will be VERY expensive to reach 40-60mil SP, and a far shot to the moon in how expensive it will be to hit triple digit SP for a new character. So, I think many people are very much over exaggerating the P2W scenario. At most you will see people buying 3-4 of these to get a racial BS to V and top off lvl 4's with the remaining SP or something similar.
In time PLEX will probably double in value with this in the short term with people investing PLEX training time into SP vat-farming capsuleers with dual (future triple?) character training.
A huge ISK sink. Nerfed Incursions and WH escalations in the future maybe. The economy graphs will be wonderful to behold.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
0bama Barack Hussein
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
78
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 03:09:11 -
[6492] - Quote
I started to think about this all more positive way since my last posts:
Actually can-¦t wait for new SP trade, I have dormant accounts with lots not needed skillpoints+chars, and almost ready chars for certain stuff not necessary to skill anymore, so I can just start SP farm and pay all my accounts by PLEX, and forgot grinding.
In fact, just start to finally have just fun again... Also more time for Elite and other games, then. |
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
402
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 11:05:35 -
[6493] - Quote
Morihei Akachi wrote:Looking back through bits of this thread and the ones at /r/eve, I get the impression that thereGÇÖs this huge disconnect between the advocates and the opponents of this idea. IGÇÖll confess that I genuinely donGÇÖt understand what is meant to be so attractive about skipping the training for a battleshipGÇöto take RiseGÇÖs example from his blogGÇöand just buying a character. My sense is that GÇ£characterGÇ¥ means no more than GÇ£chess pieceGÇ¥ in that scenario. The way you swap a pawn out for a queen the moment the opportunity presents itself.
Pawns, of course, don't have histories. They donGÇÖt make mistakes and learn from them, they donGÇÖt have stories one could tell. TheyGÇÖre just pieces on a board. Weapons to be used against an opponent. If a weapon is not good enough, you swap it out for a better one. IGÇÖm trying to grasp what I find so depressing about this approach, and it has to do with this notion of treating a character merely as a tool that you buy or sell or dismantle for parts / skill points. History, story, narrative within the world we call New Eden becomes completely superfluous at that moment. The only goal is pawning the other guy and total control over how that can be made to happen. DoesnGÇÖt Rise say that that is meant to be GÇ£EveGÇÖs core designGÇ¥: GÇ£player control above all elseGÇ¥? If that is true, there should be no constraints at all. Instant god-mode for everyone. Surely thatGÇÖs the logic of this position.
But I think Rise is wrong: GÇ£player control above all elseGÇ¥ is not the core design of Eve. I donGÇÖt think anyone (apart from him, apparently) thinks this. The challenge of Eve lies in there not being total control, in there being barriers and hindrances that force you to take a different path from the one you would have taken at first glance if all roads had lain open. I see considerable value in that. It makes Eve into a world that can surprise you, rather than just another virtual arena where the instant gratification crowd can live out its monotonous domination fantasies. (Perhaps that was a little uncharitable. But I really donGÇÖt get it.)
Hilmar tells a storyGÇöa little too often, maybeGÇöabout a mining cruiser back in the day. YouGÇÖve probably heard this. HeGÇÖs borrowed it from someone else in order to go mining and it gets blown up. HeGÇÖs unhappy, because his character doesnGÇÖt have the ISK to replace it. And then he thinks, hey, IGÇÖm the CEO of CCP, I could just wave a magic wand and make a cruiser, right? But he doesnGÇÖt. He mines for a whole week to get the cash together to buy a new cruiser on the market. Why? Because short-cutting the process would have entailed the admission that none of it was real.
That was the original vision of New Eden. A world where you canGÇÖt just dev hack or buy your way out of your biography. Because itGÇÖs real.
People are going to disagree with this violently and IGÇÖm fine with that. This is just my take on it, and an attempt to clarify for myself a little better why I find the idea of buying and selling a characterGÇÖs past so disheartening.
CCP Rise
nuff said
Eve online is :
A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online
D) CCP Games pay More to win at skill training time, now with instant gratification
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
|
winarie
Steel Fleet Phoenix Company Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 18:45:46 -
[6494] - Quote
There is nothing good about this idea, pleas pull the plug on it CCP, before your devalue all the work your dedicated players have put into their toons over the past decade or so.
If you really must go ahead with this though, at least make the diminishing returns taper off into nothing at around 80 mill or something.
win. |
GR455H0PPER
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 17:08:38 -
[6495] - Quote
i think i would pay to remap my own skills with no loss the the sp but i am not going to pump a load of monies into this game in its current state.
|
Joseph Guillotine
CTRL-Q Spaceship Bebop
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 19:49:56 -
[6496] - Quote
This is just horrible bad ideal i don't support this at all lol |
Jim Georage
Warspite. DeepSpace.
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 22:54:56 -
[6497] - Quote
If CCP goes through with this, I will no longer play this game...... Absolutely the WORST idea i have heard yet |
Sophia Electra
HSIC
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 22:57:16 -
[6498] - Quote
Have to agree with people, I do not support this. |
Captain IQ
Innocent Traders Ltd
74
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 12:58:26 -
[6499] - Quote
I think there's some amazingly insightful comments that are coming from the NO Camp, many I hadn't even considered and many I doubt that CCP have either.
On an emotional level and something I'm sure older players will recognise is that the easy transference of SP means that basically our old characters are nothing more than hulks carrying skills that can be easily stripped away, rather than quirky characters with a bit of this and a bit of that that somehow makes us feel like they're individuals and unique to us, it does a lot to take away how we will feel about them.
Our first characters are full of mistakes making them feel more human, like our own characteristics, like our disposable and newer alts, those perfectly trained characters in the Bazaar are all specific, perfect and manufactured and they have no history or blemishes with which many of our affections are based on, if we feel less about our characters then I am sure we will feel less about this game. |
Trevier Bardou
Fondation Stellaire
2
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 17:04:31 -
[6500] - Quote
Ok, now as I'm aware about it, I wanna throw my hat into the ring aswell
I know, i paused the game for a longer period again (due to my personal time management), and started on Dec 4th with my 3 alts because I always loved the concept of this whole sandbox universe. Why did I came back the 3rd time, after being some time "offline"? Because of the charms Eve had in the past and because I'm convinced than Eve has a concept who can substain some more time More than this, I thought it might be a good idea to talk to some real-live friends if they wanna start with eve. And, surprise, they started with eve on the 6th and 7th of Dec, having fun since then in a cool sandbox universe!
PLEASE considere: Eve is the only MMO were you have such a this long time motivation, fair to said other games have other things, but this makes Eve precious and unique, defferent of the other 1000th MMOs
If SP trading will be made posible this means: - Pay to win! - No one cares about any Alt decisions you made, as you can easily create a new account and transfer everything to the new account. - Past of Eve Alts will be rewriten as players actions will be forgotten as the numbers of new Alts will emerge once and once again, creating tons of new accounts and old accounts will be deleted in order to free space for the next new alt. - Players community will definitively descend, as you are not gonna met old pales ever again, motivation to play with good ingame friends will be about 0, as you will find you entire friendlist get distracted if they persist in eve.
So this will mean for us, being a player with some years of experience and 4 folks who started right away, a point of no return / discussion. If Eve implements this Pay4Win feature, then we will move along and try some of the other new emerging MMOs
I know, than we are only 7 accounts, but considere than you will lose us (5 player / 7 Accounts) for 100% sure and dispite of what I readed on the first pages, there are many paople who think samehow!
If SP trading will get realeasd, well then we quit, and thats for now!
Hope you reconsidere the feedback of this 3xx pages and be aware of what you change in this game we all love so much!
Best regards
Trevier |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6937
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 20:18:50 -
[6501] - Quote
Trevier Bardou wrote:I know, than we are only 7 accounts, but considere than you will lose us (5 player / 7 Accounts) for 100% sure and dispite of what I readed on the first pages, there are many paople who think samehow!
If SP trading will get realeasd, well then we quit, and thats for now! Oh snap, I'll be checking to make sure you actually followed through, and thats for now!
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Costanza
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 21:27:26 -
[6502] - Quote
Vanessa Mangeiri wrote:If you remove all the SP for a skill is the skill removed?
Or does it still remain injected?
Those of us with OCD would like to know.
I'm curious as well, but have a feeling it will remain injected.
|
NUBIARN
Brutal Ballerinas
18
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 22:05:31 -
[6503] - Quote
its a interesting paradox for me, nubiarn eveboard
I currently sit on 222mil sp and am ranked 115 on eveboard, so I`m pretty happy with that as I have been playing eve since jan 2004.
My first reactions to these changes was ###grrrrr ahhhahaaaaaaaa. but thinking about it for a while I now find myself torn on my thoughts towards these changes. on one hand as above I am really proud of this char I created back in 2004 and hold it dear, yes I probably should seek medical attention but that how I feel about nubs, this char has grown and been built over 12 years and done most activities eve has to offer, and yes I even enjoyed the game when it was grind in the early days, I still remember when a battleship was a corp ship that few pilots had and that was my ultimate goal to own a raven!! now these changes do take that away from new pilots, surely the enjoyment to me has been on the path to having the character I have now.
however on the flip side I can see that new pilots don`t seem to want to wait, and don't seem to appreciate the journey is as fun as the destination, and to be honest and this is the rub thinking about it I can understand their feelings, as everyone was on a level playing field in 2004 and the vets from then never had to compete with chars that are 12 years older than them, [interesting I got blown up by a noob in fw recently which made me laugh histerically at home the other week so sometime low sp pilots can hold their own with older chars]
now here comes the dilemma for me, do I hold onto wants dear to me in the above stats of my char or do I adapt to new mechanics and recycle my unused alts. as even with the sp loss I can still inject over 75mil into nubs from unused alts!! will this action detatch me from the specialness I feel for my character? interesting time ahead with many choices to make.
which means I also close the accounts that io don't use as those chars are just well training for the sake of training, so that's a loss to net income for ccp, I wonder if anyone else is thinking along those lines?
another thought I had is looking at my above post this is definetly different from the character bizzarr in just about every way possible!!
just me 2cents worth whilst sitting down thinking |
Mayaky
Peoples Liberation Army Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 22:40:45 -
[6504] - Quote
Why do people keep saying this will make Eve pay2win? This is just an alternate (and probably a better) way to the current Character Bazaar. If people had enough isks (or $$) to build up a char from scratch, they could probably have also just went to the character bazaar and bought another char. Except now I don't have to scroll through pages of bazaar forum to find a char that kind of fits my needs, and probably with a stupid name, and then still have to go through the bidding and all the shenanigans and the wait time.
Being able to buy stuff with isk does not make Eve pay2win, because, as it has always been, soft skills and knowledge of game mechanics are far more important than isks and SP. Sure people could spend $$ to buy plex for isk, but so what? Knowing how to use it is another story. |
TheDamned
Viziam Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2016.02.03 04:17:57 -
[6505] - Quote
NUBIARN wrote:
now here comes the dilemma for me, do I hold onto wants dear to me in the above stats of my char or do I adapt to new mechanics and recycle my unused alts. as even with the sp loss I can still inject over 75mil into nubs from unused alts!! will this action detatch me from the specialness I feel for my character? interesting time ahead with many choices to make.
which means I also close the accounts that io don't use as those chars are just well training for the sake of training, so that's a loss to net income for ccp, I wonder if anyone else is thinking along those lines?
another thought I had is looking at my above post this is definetly different from the character bizzarr in just about every way possible!! g
Or, you cash in on your alts, keep your main the way he is and use the funds from your alts to accomplish anything you may otherwise not have been able to?
With 6mil sp I cant imagine have 222million lol
|
Tylus Lemmont
Disciples of Aphrodite The Glory Holers
2
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 17:52:37 -
[6506] - Quote
I totally understand why a lot of people are enraged by this... But isn't anyone else seeing how this update is going to create more content? I can just about smell the ratting carriers exploding all through null sec and low class wspace... Have you all seen the number of carriers and dreads on SiSi since people cheat skilled into caps? I have two thoughts about this;
1. Yay! I'm going to tech into a large weapon system so I can finally fly a battleship. 2. Yay! Pay2Win players are still going to suck at Eve and I'm going to burn in their caps instead of their t1 cruisers! |
BearStrikesBack
Sequent Industry Out of Sight.
2
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 06:39:24 -
[6507] - Quote
Any info about AUR price of extractors? |
pajedas
Warlord of Mars
35
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 17:53:46 -
[6508] - Quote
BearStrikesBack wrote:Any info about AUR price of extractors? The extractors and injectors should be free or something silly like 100 isk. How can CCP even consider charging real money for something that was introduced as a way of improving content? Also, it's just stupid to decrease the returns for SP's. Are you saying that a higher skilled player can't learn (through injection) as well as a newer player? Kind of insulting isn't it?
You stick with the, "Skills are based on 'real-time' training" but then you take away time? So the training was done in real-time, and a newer player gets 1 hour for 1 hour...but older players get a % of that "actual" time?
How does that even make sense? What if I wanted to extract my own skills from an area that I feel was wasted and inject them into my new priority? Why should I lose a percentage when "I" did the training on a 1:1 basis?
Come on CCP, think about it. If in the future this idea is deemed progressive you will make more money. Don't take a quick fix to the detriment of your loyal player base.
TBC
|
Memphis Baas
1044
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 20:51:02 -
[6509] - Quote
They posted a twitter of the price. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 01:37:11 -
[6510] - Quote
Was a huge supporter of these until the price came out. CCP lies again. Seriously F**k y'all for lying saying these were for newbros. They're not. You're just after money. |
|
Vabanaz Arjar
Damned Nebula Privateers
26
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 10:11:20 -
[6511] - Quote
Now people get angry because it's not cheap enough, hilarious! If those things don't sell as expected they will throw in a 10% discount every now and then. So don't worry they'll make sure that you're able to buy those things.
I'll be there to laugh at CPP Management when they realize they are broke because the majority of the loyal customers left. Only problem is it requires a certain ability of self-criticism to learn from those kind of fails and most managers are unable to accept that it was their fault - so they will probably never understand what did go wrong.
The only interesting thing for me right now is which company will aquire the EvE-Brand after CPP has successfully failed.
who pulls the strings?
|
Yaosus
The Senate and People of Rome Kids With Guns Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 10:27:17 -
[6512] - Quote
A bunch of frustrated individuals scared that the new players will take their booty. CIKIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINS!!!
ONE THING TO REMEMBER : You need SKILL and coordination in Eve to be successful.
A vast majority of the eve players thrive on being cocky and brag about their 200 mil SP char who can 1 shot anything. Mewhahahahahahaha.
Eve will be more accessible now to new players and more DYNAMIC. Hold on to your breeches the noobs will bring huge di*do shaped ships in nullsec and make you run in fear screaming and holding your "wormhole" en route to hisec. Ahahahahahahahaha ... Mewhahahahah.
A great decision.
I already put aside 2 grand to turn my main into a super pilot. BOOOHOOO1 |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4644
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 10:42:27 -
[6513] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Was a huge supporter of these until the price came out. CCP lies again. Seriously F**k y'all for lying saying these were for newbros. They're not. You're just after money.
The money grab was obvious since CCP said that extractors would cost AUR, rather than have their BPs seeded into Tranquility so they became player manufactued items.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Samsara Toldya
Academy of Contradictory Behaviour
434
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 13:16:41 -
[6514] - Quote
Quote from the Devblog of CCP Rise:
Quote:That part really hits home for me because when I made that jump from 15mil SP to 33mil SP I went from being called GÇÿTurbo DinosaurGÇÖ to being called GÇÿKil2GÇÖ. Puke.
'Kil2' had 19.4m SP the moment it was sold to 'Turbo Dinosaur' for 3b ISK + transfer fee. I know what you bought 2007
3 month later 'Turbo Dinosaur' was sold (back?) for 3.25b ISK to 'kil2' + transfer fee.
Fast forward to feb 9th: Instead of buying 'Kil2' with his corp theft history CCP Rise would only need to buy 45 skill injectors. That's 45 extractors worth 35955-44955 Aurum + whatever players will charge for 500k SP.
(~500k SP new charakter + 9 injectors (500k each) to reach 5m SP + 36 injectors (400k each) to reach 19.4m SP)
That's 10-13 PLEX for extractors alone.
How many rookies will be able to do the same progression in 2016?
Quote: or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly ArmageddonGÇÖs than Stilettos, this feature has you covered. This all fits nicely to our overall game design philosophy of giving you control over your experience through cooperation and competition with each other.
I see |
Subrahmaya Chandrasekhar
42
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 21:55:27 -
[6515] - Quote
So. When I first started in the fall of 2008, it was awesome to witness the presence of the pilots who had started in 2004. Their ships and what they could do with them, my imagination still staggers with the memory of how it felt to watch the docking and undocking at Jita 4-4 There was a tradition, a knowledge that those who had given their time to the community, who had molded their character, gone through the pain and reached for success, a knowledge they had stood the test of the burning fires of time and shown their will, their endurance, their heart. I fear that greatness may now be diminished
Maybe the time has come for me to sail into the west
[u]The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.-á[/u]
|
qsanq
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 22:23:07 -
[6516] - Quote
GǪGǪ GǪ GǪ GǪ GǪ GǪ GǪ .GÇPGÇô~GÇôGÇP GǪ GǪ GǪ GǪ GǪ GǪ GǪ ../:.:.:.:.:.|. GǪ GǪ GǪ GǪ GǪ GǪ GǪ .|;.;.;.;.;.;/. GǪ GǪ GǪ GǪ ._GÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇP_.);.;.;.;.;.|. GǪ GǪ GǪ GÇP-":.:.:.:.:.:."~-GÇP;.;.;.;|. GǪ GǪ .. (_GÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇöGÇPGÇP_:.:.:);.;.;.."GÇP GǪ GǪ GÇP-":.:.:.:.:.:.:.:""-GÇP/;.;.;.;.;."GÇP GǪ .. (:.___GÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGǪGÇPGÇPGÇP___);.;.;.;.;.;; GǪ .. /"":.:.:.:.:.:.:.:-»""\;.;.;.;.;.;.GÇP", GǪ . \:.__GÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇP__/;;;;;;;;;;;/\ GǪ .. \.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.);;;;;;;;;;/:::\ GǪ GǪ . \GÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇö~~~;;;;;;;;;;;;;GÇP":::::::\ GǪ GǪ GǪ . """~~GÇôGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇPGÇP-"::::::::::::\ GǪ GǪ GǪ GǪ GǪ GǪ \:::::::::::::::::::::::::\ |
pajedas
Warlord of Mars
43
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 01:50:51 -
[6517] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Was a huge supporter of these until the price came out. CCP lies again. Seriously F**k y'all for lying saying these were for newbros. They're not. You're just after money. Gåæ THIS Gåæ
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
21
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 07:09:23 -
[6518] - Quote
I agree there is a chance I might unsub too. Not out of rage. Just out of boredom. Once every problem can be solved by getting out my credit card, the game no longer holds the same excitement. I'm already starting to play other video games more frequently, and log onto Eve less.
That's neither a threat, nor a promise. I think they designed a great game and they deserve to make all the money they can out of it, but this new direction may prove not to be very fun for me.
Trevier Bardou wrote:Ok, now as I'm aware about it, I wanna throw my hat into the ring aswell
I know, i paused the game for a longer period again (due to my personal time management), and started on Dec 4th with my 3 alts because I always loved the concept of this whole sandbox universe. Why did I came back the 3rd time, after being some time "offline"? Because of the charms Eve had in the past and because I'm convinced than Eve has a concept who can substain some more time More than this, I thought it might be a good idea to talk to some real-live friends if they wanna start with eve. And, surprise, they started with eve on the 6th and 7th of Dec, having fun since then in a cool sandbox universe!
PLEASE considere: Eve is the only MMO were you have such a this long time motivation, fair to said other games have other things, but this makes Eve precious and unique, defferent of the other 1000th MMOs
If SP trading will be made posible this means: - Pay to win! - No one cares about any Alt decisions you made, as you can easily create a new account and transfer everything to the new account. - Past of Eve Alts will be rewriten as players actions will be forgotten as the numbers of new Alts will emerge once and once again, creating tons of new accounts and old accounts will be deleted in order to free space for the next new alt. - Players community will definitively descend, as you are not gonna met old pales ever again, motivation to play with good ingame friends will be about 0, as you will find you entire friendlist get distracted if they persist in eve.
So this will mean for us, being a player with some years of experience and 4 folks who started right away, a point of no return / discussion. If Eve implements this Pay4Win feature, then we will move along and try some of the other new emerging MMOs
It would cost quite a lot of real money to actually trade out the skills on a high SP character. At 20 m SP, you're looking at buying 38 extractors to get your new character up to 15 m SP (The last 5 m won't transfer). Assuming you buy them in bulk and buy 40 of them, you've spent 32000 Aur. Or almost 9 PLEX.
That's for a fairly low SP character.
|
BearStrikesBack
Sequent Industry Out of Sight.
2
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 07:49:02 -
[6519] - Quote
Can someone (preferably who tested it on test server) clarify one thing: Assume I have 79KK trained SP. I consume 3 injectors, which gives me about 1kk free SP (300k per item). I don't allocate free SP, still having 79kk SP trained and about 1kk free.
So, the question is very simple - how much would I get from the 4th injector? 300 (as I have 79kk SP trained) or 150 (as I have 79+1 total SP)? |
George Gouillot
Black Fox Marauders
95
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 08:24:43 -
[6520] - Quote
BearStrikesBack wrote:Can someone (preferably who tested it on test server) clarify one thing: Assume I have 79KK trained SP. I consume 3 injectors, which gives me about 1kk free SP (300k per item). I don't allocate free SP, still having 79kk SP trained and about 1kk free.
So, the question is very simple - how much would I get from the 4th injector? 300 (as I have 79kk SP trained) or 150 (as I have 79+1 total SP)?
150 - unallocated SP count towards the limits. At least they do on SiSi. |
|
BearStrikesBack
Sequent Industry Out of Sight.
2
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 09:02:36 -
[6521] - Quote
Yeah, thank you. Tested already by myself.
Well played CCP, so much hypocrisy, so much words about new content and that SP is not coming from nowhere (and other blah-blah-blah) with a single idea - to get more money.
Hello 2010 again? Oculars for 15$ as new (desired by players) content? Are we gonna see some inside job done again?
P.S. Year 2016. You still can't change your ingame name in Eve Online. You can transfer character, but not change the name. |
pajedas
Warlord of Mars
43
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 14:12:44 -
[6522] - Quote
What's next??? Rebates???
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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Mintoko
Taedium In Perpetuam
38
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 17:00:13 -
[6523] - Quote
BearStrikesBack wrote:Can someone (preferably who tested it on test server) clarify one thing: Assume I have 79KK trained SP. I consume 3 injectors, which gives me about 1kk free SP (300k per item). I don't allocate free SP, still having 79kk SP trained and about 1kk free.
So, the question is very simple - how much would I get from the 4th injector? 300 (as I have 79kk SP trained) or 150 (as I have 79+1 total SP)?
Please don't cross-post.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6323579#post6323579 |
GR455H0PPER
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 20:11:33 -
[6524] - Quote
Quote:Less than 5,000,000 skill points trained -> 500,000 unallocated SP injected 5,000,000 - 50,000,000 skill points trained -> 400,000 unallocated SP injected 50,000,000 - 80,000,000 skill points trained -> 300,000 unallocated SP injected 80,000,000 or greater skill points trained -> 150,000 unallocated SP injected
final comment on this from me
**** OFF CCP YOU MONEY MILKING CUNTS
sorry for my french i suck at english |
B0RG 0VERLORD
Viziam Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 20:28:52 -
[6525] - Quote
BearStrikesBack wrote:Yeah, thank you. Tested already by myself.
Well played CCP, so much hypocrisy, so much words about new content and that SP is not coming from nowhere (and other blah-blah-blah) with a single idea - to get more money.
Hello 2010 again? Oculars for 15$ as new (desired by players) content? Are we gonna see some inside job done again?
P.S. Year 2016. You still can't change your ingame name in Eve Online. You can transfer character, but not change the name.
Dear Jesus give then another reason to extort monies out of your pocket why dont you |
Yaosus
The Senate and People of Rome Kids With Guns Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 10:33:05 -
[6526] - Quote
B0RG 0VERLORD wrote:
Dear Jesus give then another reason to extort monies out of your pocket why dont you
You do not have to buy the injectors. Try to start playing Eve now and compare your toon to someone else's toon from 2004. |
pajedas
Warlord of Mars
44
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 16:01:43 -
[6527] - Quote
Has anyone figured out if the skill book can be destroyed? That would make CCP more money. I for one would not want a skill left at zero without the option to remove the skill altogether.
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
220
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 16:34:53 -
[6528] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:more bs.
agian bs, twisting out words, wots of empty meaning, lack of basic understanding of market and economy. And as a conclusion lie again as you have never provided any counter argument for the side effects i have mentioned. Of course i am not surprised. CBA to reply to it since its pointless, you do not want to understand (or you are not capable, whatever).
In the end [sarcasm] smart [ /sarcasm] guys will implement it and we will see in future what will this bring us. I predict less players and much higher plex cost.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1904
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 19:57:01 -
[6529] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:more bs. agian bs, twisting out words, wots of empty meaning, lack of basic understanding of market and economy. And as a conclusion lie again as you have never provided any counter argument for the side effects i have mentioned. Of course i am not surprised. CBA to reply to it since its pointless, you do not want to understand (or you are not capable, whatever). In the end [sarcasm] smart [ /sarcasm] guys will implement it and we will see in future what will this bring us. I predict less players and much higher plex cost. For a guy who in one location claims he doesn't want to talk about it anymore you sure like to throw a bunch of words at it while not even trying to argue anything anymore. There's some irony in coming into both threads even after the fact just to make sure your last whinge on the subject is heard while claiming you "won't enter discussion on the matter."
But it's entirely what I've come to expect of you so carry on I suppose. |
pajedas
Warlord of Mars
65
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 19:59:39 -
[6530] - Quote
pajedas wrote: Has anyone figured out if the skill book can be destroyed? That would make CCP more money. I for one would not want a skill left at zero without the option to remove the skill altogether.
Gåæ
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
|
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6941
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 01:52:20 -
[6531] - Quote
pajedas wrote:pajedas wrote: Has anyone figured out if the skill book can be destroyed? That would make CCP more money. I for one would not want a skill left at zero without the option to remove the skill altogether.
Gåæ Yeah, it was figured out.
No.
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6941
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 01:53:21 -
[6532] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:more bs. agian bs, twisting out words, wots of empty meaning, lack of basic understanding of market and economy. And as a conclusion lie again as you have never provided any counter argument for the side effects i have mentioned. Of course i am not surprised. CBA to reply to it since its pointless, you do not want to understand (or you are not capable, whatever). In the end [sarcasm] smart [ /sarcasm] guys will implement it and we will see in future what will this bring us. I predict less players and much higher plex cost. For a guy who in one location claims he doesn't want to talk about it anymore you sure like to throw a bunch of words at it while not even trying to argue anything anymore. There's some irony in coming into both threads even after the fact just to make sure your last whinge on the subject is heard while claiming you "won't enter discussion on the matter." But it's entirely what I've come to expect of you so carry on I suppose. The last whinge is critical, so they can come back and dwell on it years from now.
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
NVision08
The Senate and People of Eve
2
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 07:06:26 -
[6533] - Quote
it's a lose lose. New players believing the skills will win out with injectors..fail. Veteran players disenfranchised who banked on game mechanics for the long haul..fail. You will lose new players-yet keep the current scheme of long lasting Corp players...and that is a fail to Eve's evolving chances. Truly. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
243
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 10:01:02 -
[6534] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:more bs. agian bs, twisting out words, wots of empty meaning, lack of basic understanding of market and economy. And as a conclusion lie again as you have never provided any counter argument for the side effects i have mentioned. Of course i am not surprised. CBA to reply to it since its pointless, you do not want to understand (or you are not capable, whatever). In the end [sarcasm] smart [ /sarcasm] guys will implement it and we will see in future what will this bring us. I predict less players and much higher plex cost. For a guy who in one location claims he doesn't want to talk about it anymore you sure like to throw a bunch of words at it while not even trying to argue anything anymore. There's some irony in coming into both threads even after the fact just to make sure your last whinge on the subject is heard while claiming you "won't enter discussion on the matter." But it's entirely what I've come to expect of you so carry on I suppose.
I can state my opinion without having to waste time on pointless discussion with people who do not want or are unable to comprehend. Please go ahead and have a last say as it will be a "victory" for you. After that feel free to stop quoting me since I do not want to waste my time on trolls at the moment.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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lmmortalist
lmmortality Associates
199
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 18:36:20 -
[6535] - Quote
Just popping back in to state that the whole idea of skill trading still sucks. |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
590
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 19:46:33 -
[6536] - Quote
Watching all those 8 million sp toons become 80 million sp toons instantly yesterday was one of the most depressing things I've ever witnessed in game. Jita was like a feeding frenzy of folks skipping decades of training.
I flew out there, applied a few injectors (I've always planned to try it at least) but was unprepared for how dirty I'd feel afterward.
For the first time in my EVE career, I felt like I cheated to get something.
I realized in that moment that the EVE I romanticize about is dead. SP trading made me a dinosaur.
So I took down my POS's, parked my toons & unsubbed. My account doesn't expire until April but I'm pretty sure this is it for me in game. Maybe something will happen in the interim and I'll feel differently, but atm that's difficult to imagine.
My post-release feedback is that SP trading is the most offensive change made to EVE Online since I've been here. As far as I'm concerned, EVE died yesterday. CCP deliberately assassinated her. Imo, whatever new game you're playing now is not EVE. SP trading is not EVE. Instant gratification is not EVE. This "feature" upends everything I believe EVE is and makes it meaningless. It makes the sacrifice of time and effort that (for me at least has been really ******* difficult over the years) an afterthought.
CCP Seagull said that the goal here was "making the game easier to get into, without the experience becoming something else."
Boy was that a failure. The experience of time is now nonexistent. The struggle to persevere is nonexistent. But I'm sure people will pay for the privilege nonetheless. It just feels very much like this was a solution to a problem invented by someone who hasn't lived the EVE experience.
Now that CCP has acknowledged that it will cater to >2 year old players in an attempt to retain them at all costs - even EVE's core principles - I cannot wait to see where this road leads. The gimme gimme gremlins always want more gimme.
And you just fed them past midnight.
YK
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1909
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 21:16:16 -
[6537] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:I can state my opinion without having to waste time on pointless discussion with people who do not want or are unable to comprehend. Please go ahead and have a last say as it will be a "victory" for you, you can claim it with your bs, see if i care. Anyone who had read this topic can quite easily see that your shallow wots are combination of twisting out words, digression, lack of understanding of market, economy laws, ignorance at best. After that feel free to stop quoting me since I do not want to waste my time on trolls at the moment. The victory isn't mine to have. That aside, no, in a forum you really don't get to demand other posters can't respond and point out that once again you're raging without justification on subjects which largely consisted of you inserting your opinions about character ownership as facts, using backwards and nonsensical logic and further continue to ignore the acceptance of the new mechanic over a flawed principle. |
pajedas
Warlord of Mars
102
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 22:58:03 -
[6538] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:For the first time in my EVE career, I felt like I cheated to get something.
I realized in that moment that the EVE I romanticize about is dead. SP trading made me a dinosaur. I'm not saying that you're wrong overall, but you're not old enough to be a bitter vet.
They can make this thing work, just needs some tweaking.
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
592
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 00:50:47 -
[6539] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Yonis Kador wrote:For the first time in my EVE career, I felt like I cheated to get something.
I realized in that moment that the EVE I romanticize about is dead. SP trading made me a dinosaur. I'm not saying that you're wrong overall, but you're not old enough to be a bitter vet. They can make this thing work, just needs some tweaking.
No. They can change the nature of the universe. They have. But it's a new EVE. It's too late anyway. The paradigm shift has occurred. This is just post-disaster chit chat. If devs didn't care about feedback before release, it's unlikely they care now.
But for the record, I'm both bitter and vet. This is not my first toon.
I discovered EVE Online in 2008 after enduring 6 hurricanes in 6 years (Isadore/Lili 2002, Katrina/Rita 2005, and Gustav/Ike 2008) and losing everything I owned 3 times in that short span. After the last flood, I was ready to give up. There was a pervasive sense that nothing mattered anymore and it was pointless to try.
But then I found EVE and it sort of became my escape from the chaos of real life. I've always been drawn to escapist Sci-Fi but this was unlike any game I had ever played. The backstory was rich, the challenges real and everything I earned seemed to come from actual effort. So I started playing EVE on a friend's account at night while I rebuilt my home during the day. To some extent, EVE saved me.
So maybe I can't reconcile the challenges I had to get where I am in game with this new cash for progress model. All the time and effort it took... just feels meaningless now. I was proud of my accomplishments. They meant something. The struggle now is to get more isk so you can buy your way up the chain. Maybe I'll be on board with this eventually but man, it still stings for now. |
Lara Divinity
Black Scorpion Nomads
120
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 01:48:52 -
[6540] - Quote
wtf ccp 4 day old noobs can now inject up to idk how much sp so they can fly jumpfreighters n the likes of it kill whats next more pay to win crap 4 day old carrier pilots wtf good goin are yall so desperate for money that ur screwin up the entire game over it ? this skill injector thing is a bad idea the way it is now next up ill be fightin a 1 day old t3 strategic cruiser pilot or somthing it does not make any sense EVE= dieng n yall just make it die faster whoever tought of this should rethink it completly |
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pajedas
Warlord of Mars
102
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 02:33:01 -
[6541] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:But for the record, I'm both bitter and vet. This is not my first toon.
I discovered EVE Online in 2008 after enduring 6 hurricanes in 6 years (Isadore/Lili 2002, Katrina/Rita 2005, and Gustav/Ike 2008) and losing everything I owned 3 times in that short span. After the last flood, I was ready to give up. There was a pervasive sense that nothing mattered anymore and it was pointless to try.
But then I found EVE and it sort of became my escape from the chaos of real life. I've always been drawn to escapist Sci-Fi but this was unlike any game I had ever played. The backstory was rich, the challenges real and everything I earned seemed to come from actual effort. So I started playing EVE on a friend's account at night while I rebuilt my home during the day. To some extent, EVE saved me.
So maybe I can't reconcile the challenges I had to get where I am in game with this new cash for progress model. All the time and effort it took... just feels meaningless now. I was proud of my accomplishments. They meant something. The struggle now is to get more isk so you can buy your way up the chain. Maybe I'll be on board with this eventually but man, it still stings for now. My apologies.
As you have survived those hurricanes I believe that you'll work through this bad patch in Eve as well.
No one can take away your accomplishments.
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
4672
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 14:57:39 -
[6542] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Yonis Kador wrote:But for the record, I'm both bitter and vet. This is not my first toon.
I discovered EVE Online in 2008 after enduring 6 hurricanes in 6 years (Isadore/Lili 2002, Katrina/Rita 2005, and Gustav/Ike 2008) and losing everything I owned 3 times in that short span. After the last flood, I was ready to give up. There was a pervasive sense that nothing mattered anymore and it was pointless to try.
But then I found EVE and it sort of became my escape from the chaos of real life. I've always been drawn to escapist Sci-Fi but this was unlike any game I had ever played. The backstory was rich, the challenges real and everything I earned seemed to come from actual effort. So I started playing EVE on a friend's account at night while I rebuilt my home during the day. To some extent, EVE saved me.
So maybe I can't reconcile the challenges I had to get where I am in game with this new cash for progress model. All the time and effort it took... just feels meaningless now. I was proud of my accomplishments. They meant something. The struggle now is to get more isk so you can buy your way up the chain. Maybe I'll be on board with this eventually but man, it still stings for now. My apologies. As you have survived those hurricanes I believe that you'll work through this bad patch in Eve as well. No one can take away your accomplishments.
Apparently the only way I'm finding to cope with this change is to no longer care about SP. I am who I am, have been playing this game since 2008. I don't care what others may fly with assistance of their credit card. I can get over being a fool and feel worried each time my queue emptied accidentally. I can get over missing the SP my main misses over being unsubbed for months and using +4 implants.
Nothing CCP can do can change my EVE, even if they kill the game. And anyway CCP will burn in hell over Incarna, so this change makes no difference... v-¦v
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
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NVision08
The Senate and People of Eve
3
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 18:02:37 -
[6543] - Quote
6 years...now??? I will extract all my SP & sell it-perhaps buy some merchandise..for a vet player this is the time to leave. Thank the sky you just gave me the reason to enjoy reallife now - - - U SUK but I'm happy to break the chains now=ƒÿè. |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
598
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 19:24:59 -
[6544] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Apparently the only way I'm finding to cope with this change is to no longer care about SP. I am who I am, have been playing this game since 2008.
Albeit slowly.... I'm getting there. I got drunk, laid & took a 3 hr bath. Whaddayouknow? I'm feeling better.
I don't really care about my SP amount. Or, I didn't care before. It's more about the challenges both in-game and out that one has to overcome to achieve every small goal while you accumulate SP that's going to be missing. Those small victories are what drove my retention and now I'll need to find a new hook... quickly.
My biggest problem is that there isn't another game I want to play. I love EVE. Even if we're now playing EVE's slightly less-attractive, overweight cousin Bernice.
BERNICE ONLINE: You know you'd hit it.
BERNICE ONLINE: Drink until she's pretty enough to take home.
Maybe some new tagline options there for CCP. HTFU is out.
The bottom line is that I will be heartbroken this was allowed to occur for a while. It fundamentally is not EVE... but if BERNICE is going to have PTP (I have to call it 'pay to progress' or else the semantics warriors will attack) I only have 2 choices: quit or learn to love PTP.
I don't really wanna quit. I unsubbed on principle. There's nothing else you can do. Realistically, there's a lot going on in-game I DO like. I'm excited about citadels (though I think they should have some sort of automated defenses - what year is this) as I suggested player-built hub cities years ago. I like the new camera options. (I think you should be able to look left & right while flying in first person though) as I suggested that years ago too. SP trading sucks but there's a lot happening that's good and on many fronts I DO like the direction the game is heading.
If I stay, I'm not going to ride in the slow lane while everyone else passes me by either. So I'll have to learn to love ridin' dirty.
It's just such ********. I shouldn't even be in this position.
Hell, I might become one of the best NEX customers CCP has. In fact, my first new suggestion RE: BERNICE ONLINE will be if you buy x skins (100? some ridiculously high number) you should get an account-bound ship skin that looks like a spinning ball of light. **** yeah! Look at me! I bought so many skins I don't even fly a ship anymore. I fly a ******* ball of light! Thanks BERNICE!
"The only way to achieve the impossible is to believe it is possible." -- Alice in Wonderland
I'm goin fix myself a stiff drink. I'ma need it.
Hey BERNICE, wanna get out of here? I have money....
YK
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pajedas
Warlord of Mars
105
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 21:08:40 -
[6545] - Quote
You had me at: Quote:I got drunk, laid & took a 3 hr bath. Looks like you already accomplished:
Quote:So I'll have to learn to love ridin' dirty.
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1869
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 21:54:59 -
[6546] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: And anyway CCP will burn in hell over Incarna, so this change makes no difference... v-¦v
This sounds like the opinion of a mature, emotionally stable individual with sound, nuanced opinions worthy of consideration.
Not psychotic at all, no sir.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Jenna Alberta
Tag Tax Collection Office Nihilists Social Club
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 12:20:29 -
[6547] - Quote
PAY TO WIN LOLOLOLOL
Expect to see Day 1 old Toon with max HIC skill or something... funny to see but not amusing... **** this decision more milking money from ccp |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4688
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 12:40:15 -
[6548] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: And anyway CCP will burn in hell over Incarna, so this change makes no difference... v-¦v
This sounds like the opinion of a mature, emotionally stable individual with sound, nuanced opinions worthy of consideration. Not psychotic at all, no sir.
Do you believe that there is a hell and CCP will burn in it?
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
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Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
427
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 14:02:29 -
[6549] - Quote
Yaosus wrote:B0RG 0VERLORD wrote:
Dear Jesus give then another reason to extort monies out of your pocket why dont you
You do not have to buy the injectors. Try to start playing Eve now and compare your toon to someone else's toon from 2004. Capsuleers used link their sp amount, and time trained from the character sheet and feel proud, not so more now imo
Eve online is :
A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online
D) CCP Games pay More to win at skill training time, now with instant gratification
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
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pajedas
Warlord of Mars
140
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 15:00:05 -
[6550] - Quote
Please Add the Option to Remove Empty Skill Books
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
4704
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 23:03:14 -
[6551] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Please Add the Option to Remove Empty Skill Books
And then if you want to train it again, you need to buy the book again?
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
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pajedas
Warlord of Mars
141
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 23:33:35 -
[6552] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:And then if you want to train it again, you need to buy the book again? It would be an option, you can leave it if you like :-)
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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Jenshae Chiroptera
2523
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 15:51:53 -
[6553] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Apparently the only way I'm finding to cope with this change is to no longer care about SP. I am who I am, have been playing this game since 2008.
Albeit slowly.... I'm getting there. I got drunk, laid & took a 3 hr bath. Whaddayouknow? I'm feeling better. ... My plan is still:
- Vote for Xenuria
- Stop paying CCP
- Burn through my ISK
- ??? probably quit for an indefinite time.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
I will be voting for Xenuria because...
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Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3398
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 17:34:32 -
[6554] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Yonis Kador wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Apparently the only way I'm finding to cope with this change is to no longer care about SP. I am who I am, have been playing this game since 2008.
Albeit slowly.... I'm getting there. I got drunk, laid & took a 3 hr bath. Whaddayouknow? I'm feeling better. ... My plan is still:
- Vote for Xenuria
- Stop paying CCP
- Burn through my ISK
- ??? probably quit for an indefinite time.
I i ran that plan I would manage to play for an extra 2 weeks
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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Josef Djugashvilis
3275
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 19:06:10 -
[6555] - Quote
I cannot remember for the life of me who I voted for last time, apart from Mike and Steve Ronkuen (?)
But I would like to know where any of the CSM from last year who are standing again, stood on the cash for skills - err, thingy.
Thank you.
This is not a signature.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2690
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 19:45:41 -
[6556] - Quote
I'd love to see some CCP Quant stats at the end of Feb showing how both ISK and SP distribution has shifted in response to skill trading.
I love the change - thanks CCP.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2690
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 19:50:47 -
[6557] - Quote
NVision08 wrote:6 years...now??? I will extract all my SP & sell it-perhaps buy some merchandise..for a vet player this is the time to leave. Thank the sky you just gave me the reason to enjoy reallife now - - - U SUK but I'm happy to break the chains now=ƒÿè. And a dozen younger players will be very happy to buy it from you.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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NVision08
The Senate and People of Eve
4
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 00:25:52 -
[6558] - Quote
Zappity wrote:NVision08 wrote:6 years...now??? I will extract all my SP & sell it-perhaps buy some merchandise..for a vet player this is the time to leave. Thank the sky you just gave me the reason to enjoy reallife now - - - U SUK but I'm happy to break the chains now=ƒÿè. And a dozen younger players will be very happy to buy it from you.
Yes my comments appear apocalypto. As I take a step back I found another way. Instead of ditching my 160m sp char, I think buying the old vet ones being sold-stripping them-selling their sp-just makes mine... more valuable. I love/hate this game. |
Terraj Oknatis
xX-Crusader-Xx Tactical Narcotics Team
30
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 09:57:27 -
[6559] - Quote
And I bet CCP forgot about all that thousands of aurm that were just laying around when you gave it out like candy. Now we have an Iron bank character with 100% five level skills and people on twitch handing out loads of skill extractors as raffle rewards.
I am also starting to have those conversations with people about how about you just buy some injectors so you can fly x.
I now have to compete with those people who are willing to drop big amounts of cash in a game because all you have to do now is buy a bunch of plex to turn it into sp.
I could go on. You broke the game the damage is done and now the game is in a very unhealthy place.
You didn't listen to anybody, and as usual you just did whatever the hell YOU wanted to do. I hope you enjoy your quick cash.
I guess we will just have to wait and see how this goes.
Im very disapointed in you CCP. |
NVision08
The Senate and People of Eve
4
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Posted - 2016.02.16 13:51:48 -
[6560] - Quote
Character with MAX SKILLS less than 5 days old.
This hits a nerve. |
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Vabanaz Arjar
Damned Nebula Privateers
28
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 19:52:53 -
[6561] - Quote
This is Eve in 2016
who pulls the strings?
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2070
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 21:33:45 -
[6562] - Quote
This did make me laugh :D |
I WasThere
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 13:07:48 -
[6563] - Quote
"If u wanna join my corp...... 500.000 SP is be payed, I don't need any API ar any other crap " |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
699
|
Posted - 2016.03.06 20:27:29 -
[6564] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:can't w8 for this.its a much needed boost for new players =D
so this way, instead of w8ing for 2 WEEKS to get a mining barge, or cov ops ship, or t3 destroyer. i can pay a bit and get it now.
Instant gratification.. less investment.. equal more apt to leave the game and never return. Is a two week wait really game killing? I remember in other games grinding XP for longer than 2 weeks to make a gain in gear. Part of the joy of flying a new ship is knowing that you've put in the time to train those important skills.. and you know that others who fly your ship have too.. that will all go by the way side with this change .. and suddenly we'll see hundreds of new bro logi pilots for example who haven't a clue.
-á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
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Ellen Sukarla
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2016.04.02 02:36:17 -
[6565] - Quote
It really sucks CCP has sold out with this, totally changes what Eve was to me. I have played since 2005 and the game no longer holds the same feeling. It feels cold, corporate, money mongering. Look at your ad for skill extractors, is this what Eve is now? A cash cow? Say what you want but Eve characters used to be something special and now they are just commodities to be stripped down sold. I know nobody cares but man CCP I loved you guys, sucks to see! Hours for plex burned just to post, I don't feel the need to support CCP like I used to. |
Ellen Sukarla
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2016.04.02 03:27:29 -
[6566] - Quote
Also just confirmation received as I thought that 200M + characters are liquidating their skillpoints for money, CCP workers who are VETS, look at yourself, look at your company, the f*** guys?! If high SP characters can be disposable what makes Eve special any more? its messed up, CCP wake up!!! |
Maker Atavuli
Core Intel
27
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Posted - 2016.05.06 05:28:16 -
[6567] - Quote
Please don't make eve pay to win PLEASE!
I am NOT crazy they made me take my medication this morning!
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Ormarr Kai
Doughboys
24
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Posted - 2016.05.11 17:48:17 -
[6568] - Quote
I see nothing wrong with this, I think it will help retain new players which eve desperately needs. It was already possible to pay to win with plexs and the character bazzar. All these salty vets need to warm up to change , eve will die without it.... |
kraken11 jensen
ROOKS AND KRAKENS Requiem Eternal
97
|
Posted - 2016.05.17 10:15:12 -
[6569] - Quote
im kinda sad that it kinda killed the charater market.. |
Vailen Sere
420 Enterprises. Tactical Supremacy
18
|
Posted - 2016.06.24 22:26:22 -
[6570] - Quote
Oh well. It was nice taking 5 hours a day off long skills without having to sit in an expensive clone.
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Vailen Sere
420 Enterprises. Tactical Supremacy
18
|
Posted - 2016.06.24 22:28:30 -
[6571] - Quote
Ormarr Kai wrote:I see nothing wrong with this, I think it will help retain new players which eve desperately needs. It was already possible to pay to win with plexs and the character bazzar. All these salty vets need to warm up to change , eve will die without it.... I'm salty and I liked it. Nothing like taking out that fresh noob doing a solo roam in that BC they should be flying yet in a fail fit! |
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